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poopoomaru
April 12, 2007, 06:39 PM
I wrote this in another thread (spoiler section for 271) but thought the theory could stand alone and used for discussion


Well I know it isnt stated exactly in the manga, but I believe that Zangetsu's power is high velocity propulsation. Ichigo states that Getsuga is when Zangetsu takes his own spiritual energy and releases at a high velocity in a more concentrated form that energy which is the attack. Now I have thought about it and the only way that his bankai would make sense if it is simply a more powerfull form of the original concept of the sword (which is what all Bankai are, a much more powerful and controled form of the original shikai power and form.), now the only way it makes sense that, if Zangetsu's only shikai power is to shoot out Ichigo's spirit energy concentrated and at high velocity, that his bankai works by concentrating his own reiatsu and spirit parictles and propelling them at high velocities, which is why he gains incredible speed. Getsuga Tenshou is stronger then a shikai getsuga because naturally with more reiatsu from zangetsu , and with zangetsu's overall ability to fire off reiatsu increased, the getsuga would be more stronger.


The fact that he is moving at high speeds though does not mean he becomes physically any stronger, I.E. able to swing his sword any harder. Grimmjaw after blocking Ichigo's initial shikai attack , and then his bankai attacks, that the only thing his bankai gave him was speed. Speed and increased spiritual pressure/concentration is all he gains from bankai.

Bankai's dont all necassarily increase in sheer overall ability and power. They are just a much more powerful version of the initial concept. Byakuya's shikai is to turn his sword into many tiny blades that he controls, his bankai is great many hundreds of times more tiny blades, the rest his is own personal doing as with concentrating those blades.

naru_naru
April 12, 2007, 08:05 PM
the theory carries alot of weight and answers a lot of questions, especially as to why ichigos bankai is so different from other shinigamis.

i got a theory also thought i'd put mine in cos its different from urs :p

if we look at other shinigami bankais ichigo's bankai isnt anything like it, it even confuses Byakuya. other shinigami bankais seem to change the zanpaktou (i.e: make its attacking power and/or attacking speed increase) however it dosnt actually change the user (make him faster or stronger).

ichigos bankai seems to enhance his fighting ability; i.e.: making ichigos attacks stronger, faster; the zanpaktou itself just remains a simple katana and ichigo remains the same physically (he dosnt change physically). also unlike all shinigami ichigo dosnt actually have a shikai. yes at the beginning, when ichigo got zangetsu he called the zanpaktou to release the shikai (that was a cool chapter), however it has remained in the same state ever since. this might be due to ichigo not fully knowing everything about his zanpaktou, but his zanpaktou does go from bankai from to shikai form.

the arrancer all seem to have similar bankais; in the released form of the blade increases the users fighting ability in the form of physically modifying the user. this might be different for the espada but so far this seems to be the trend.

so far we havnt seen any vizards release yet but imho i believe that vizards release their zanpaktou similar to the way ichigo does.

so far it seems ichigos zanpaktou release states are inbetween arrancer and shinigami. ichigos fighting ability is directly increased like the arrancer, but he is not physically changed and does not gain any traits. and ichigo still retains his zanpaktou (still has a weapon separate from his body) and the attacking ability is increased like shinigamis but unlike the shinigami he is directly affected by the bankai, i.e: his speed is increased.

tbh u could make them both into one theory about why ichigos released form is different from both arrancer and shinigami released form. :blink

poopoomaru
April 12, 2007, 08:33 PM
the theory carries alot of weight and answers a lot of questions, especially as to why ichigos bankai is so different from other shinigamis.

i got a theory also thought i'd put mine in cos its different from urs :p

if we look at other shinigami bankais ichigo's bankai isnt anything like it, it even confuses Byakuya. other shinigami bankais seem to change the zanpaktou (i.e: make its attacking power and/or attacking speed increase) however it dosnt actually change the user (make him faster or stronger).

ichigos bankai seems to enhance his fighting ability; i.e.: making ichigos attacks stronger, faster; the zanpaktou itself just remains a simple katana and ichigo remains the same physically (he dosnt change physically). also unlike all shinigami ichigo dosnt actually have a shikai. yes at the beginning, when ichigo got zangetsu he called the zanpaktou to release the shikai (that was a cool chapter), however it has remained in the same state ever since. this might be due to ichigo not fully knowing everything about his zanpaktou, but his zanpaktou does go from bankai from to shikai form.

the arrancer all seem to have similar bankais; in the released form of the blade increases the users fighting ability in the form of physically modifying the user. this might be different for the espada but so far this seems to be the trend.

so far we havnt seen any vizards release yet but imho i believe that vizards release their zanpaktou similar to the way ichigo does.

so far it seems ichigos zanpaktou release states are inbetween arrancer and shinigami. ichigos fighting ability is directly increased like the arrancer, but he is not physically changed and does not gain any traits. and ichigo still retains his zanpaktou (still has a weapon separate from his body) and the attacking ability is increased like shinigamis but unlike the shinigami he is directly affected by the bankai, i.e: his speed is increased.

tbh u could make them both into one theory about why ichigos released form is different from both arrancer and shinigami released form. :blink

Thats true and thats something I really thought about too, the fact stands that Ichigo is the only one who, as far as we know, gained both shinigami and hollow powers at the exact same time. He may have had shinigami powers before, but he gained HIS powers the same moment he was becoming a hollow, and his familiarity with being a shinigami is what made that side so dominant in the beginning.

So to reference to what you were saying it is a possibility that because they happened at the same time, Ichigo's hollow and shinigami powers could have bled into each other, as we can see since Hollow ichigo fades back into Zangetsu's body.

That is could be why his bankai alters and enhances his own body instead of making an exterior weapon to use like other's bankai, much in a hollow fashion, this could also be why as we can see when Ichigo is going hollow in the basement of the vizard building, the hollow form looks so human.



You are right, it very well could be either yours or my theory which are correct, or possibly a combination of the two. Very interesting lol.

naru_naru
April 12, 2007, 11:48 PM
Thats true and thats something I really thought about too, the fact stands that Ichigo is the only one who, as far as we know, gained both shinigami and hollow powers at the exact same time. He may have had shinigami powers before, but he gained HIS powers the same moment he was becoming a hollow, and his familiarity with being a shinigami is what made that side so dominant in the beginning.

So to reference to what you were saying it is a possibility that because they happened at the same time, Ichigo's hollow and shinigami powers could have bled into each other, as we can see since Hollow ichigo fades back into Zangetsu's body.

That is could be why his bankai alters and enhances his own body instead of making an exterior weapon to use like other's bankai, much in a hollow fashion, this could also be why as we can see when Ichigo is going hollow in the basement of the vizard building, the hollow form looks so human.



You are right, it very well could be either yours or my theory which are correct, or possibly a combination of the two. Very interesting lol.


we need some vizards going bankai :p

Decorus
April 15, 2007, 03:50 AM
Ichigo's Bankei is still incomplete it does nothing but raise his speed. This means Ichigo does not gain any more Reiatsu or Attack power. Byakuya believes its one of the strongest Combat Bankei's because of the ultra high speed it allows him to attain in its compressed state. (Yes Ichigo managed to compress down the size of his Bankei which no other captain has ever done).

Ichigo's combat skills came from his Bankei training, but he probably needs Zangetsu to teach him some more tricks and soon.

mars0103
May 03, 2007, 01:21 PM
i think that zangetus ability is a type of cero's But rereading the manga and anime i think zangetus is not in its true form. I think that the white zangetus and the black zangetus are a pair this means that zangetus will be the third twin zanpacto ever. New form new abilitys

want you think

the cat stated that his zanpacto can onlys go in to shi kai because of his spirt energy. This fits into my limter theroy.

and bai kai's do increase phyical strengh because of 3rd seat of th 11th squards increses his shrengh

Ripht
May 03, 2007, 02:52 PM
i believe that he hasn't reached bankai yet. He started off with that huge sword which wasn't his because he was given rukia's powers. Then while training with uruahara he unlocked his own powers and got his own sword, it then stayed in this form and didn't power down. Which suggests to me that this is his non released form. Then in soul society he managed to unlock a release which he called bankai, i believe this is wrongly named and actually this is only his part released form. Also after just watching the lastest episode of bleach i picked up on something that one of the charaters said while fighting ichigo, he said something like " i should have reliased you can't even use bankai" i don't remember that text being in the manga at all. Interesting

Warden
May 03, 2007, 04:51 PM
There is a difference betweem "having" and "using". He has a Bankai, but he is not using it properly, and cannot reach its full potential.

And the stuff with Byakua and Kariya in the latest episode was frankly filler content.

Richo
May 04, 2007, 02:37 AM
i believe that he hasn't reached bankai yet. He started off with that huge sword which wasn't his because he was given rukia's powers. Then while training with uruahara he unlocked his own powers and got his own sword, it then stayed in this form and didn't power down. Which suggests to me that this is his non released form. Then in soul society he managed to unlock a release which he called bankai, i believe this is wrongly named and actually this is only his part released form. Also after just watching the lastest episode of bleach i picked up on something that one of the charaters said while fighting ichigo, he said something like " i should have reliased you can't even use bankai" i don't remember that text being in the manga at all. Interesting

this whole post is nothing more then noncense...
the big ass sword was his normal zanpaktou (different from normal shinigami yes) as he could not control his reiatsu back then, he released a shikai with urahara and could not seal it back again to its usual form as ichigo still can controll his reiatsu as he simply has to much of it same goes for zaraki he has so much he cant even seal it into a shikai form. and about the bankai part yourichi and zangetsu himself did say he has bankai and his hollow part did say ichigo still cant control his bankai yet (as with the first time using it he cracked about all his bones cause his body could not yet controll the incredible speed)...
the only thing his hollow part is trying to do is crush ichigo his confidence (and also resolve witch are not hard to crush), and then he tries to take over his body or catch ichigo off gaurd....

naru_naru
May 07, 2007, 06:37 PM
zangetsu is a zanpaktou that is always in a released state i.e: his shikai; why that is has not been explained. ichigo did achieve his bankai as he has to say bankai to release it. zangetsu says what the conditions were for obtaining bankai. yourochi (sp) mentions ichigos reiatsu isnt increasing to add hype to the whole getting bankai arc. noone has doubted or hinted that ichigos bankai is not actually bankai, therefore we must accept that ichigos bankai is indeed a bankai.

achieving and mastering bankai is completely different. mastering a bankai provides various new techniques we have seen some possibilities of ichigos bankai from the times when hollow-ichigo uses the bankai. to master a bankai takes atleast 10 years.

mars0103
May 08, 2007, 05:30 PM
zangetsu is a zanpaktou that is always in a released state i.e: his shikai; why that is has not been explained. ichigo did achieve his bankai as he has to say bankai to release it. zangetsu says what the conditions were for obtaining bankai. yourochi (sp) mentions ichigos reiatsu isnt increasing to add hype to the whole getting bankai arc. noone has doubted or hinted that ichigos bankai is not actually bankai, therefore we must accept that ichigos bankai is indeed a bankai.

achieving and mastering bankai is completely different. mastering a bankai provides various new techniques we have seen some possibilities of ichigos bankai from the times when hollow-ichigo uses the bankai. to master a bankai takes atleast 10 years.

I see where youare coming from because soi fon didn't prefect a shi kai move until after yourchi went from ss. Same things can be said about ban kai's

Omi
May 09, 2007, 05:17 AM
What do we know of Zangetsu Shikai:

he is a zanpaktou without a hilt or guard i.e. not defensive capabilities
he has the capability of preventing injuries from taking hold for a while ... re Zaraki fight.
he can increase Ichigo's reiatsu when they fight as one ... Zaraki fight again
he has the capability of release of slicing beam of energy .... getsuga
he has a long cloth like attachment which hollow Ichigo tends to use to spin it like a helicopter blade + wraps around Ichigo's arm when he does bankai

Bankai:

he changes Ichigo's clothes
he gains a hilt and guard
he loses the cloth extension for a short chain
Ichigo gains uber speed
Ichigo gains getsuga tenshou which carries way more reiatsu than normal getsuga.
Ichigo's reiatsu appears to turn black

---------------------------
Hollow Ichigo told Ichigo that Zangetsu gets stronger has he gets stronger. It looks like Ichigo has stopped growing his Shinigami powers cause he does look weaker than he was when he fought Zaraki or Byakuya.

Valen123456
May 09, 2007, 09:32 AM
Ichigo has been having his arse handed to him a lot lately it is true ... its probable that this was because his hollow side was getting stronger and conflicting with him even when it wasnt taking over physically (like metal near a compass the hollow took over when it got right up close but even from far away it was causing some problems), he seemed pretty in control during his fight with Dordonii, the reason hes been fryed by Grimmjow and Uliqorria (after getting his mask) is due to there power being more or less equal to his or he burns himself out (remeber the difference between a powerful shinigami and menos, a shinigami has no resources save himself while a menos is an amalgomation of hundreds of other hollows compressed together).

Back on topic though, Zangetsus powers have been more or less defined, he is a channel for spirit power and unleashes large cutting blasts. The future i see is different shapes and effeciencies rather than raw power (ichigos got that already), if say that big black tenshou he hit Uliquiorra with had been a compress ball instead of a huge wave then No4 wouldnt have stabbed ichigo in the chest because he wouldnt have had any hands.

I like the idea of a double sword though ... would be something to see ... however i don t think we are going to see ichigo in the next chapter cos things are a getting a bit too hot with Grantz Ishida and Renji at the moment

Richo
May 09, 2007, 03:34 PM
Back on topic though, Zangetsus powers have been more or less defined, he is a channel for spirit power and unleashes large cutting blasts. The future i see is different shapes and effeciencies rather than raw power (ichigos got that already), if say that big black tenshou he hit Uliquiorra with had been a compress ball instead of a huge wave then No4 wouldnt have stabbed ichigo in the chest because he wouldnt have had any hands.

I like the idea of a double sword though ... would be something to see ... however i don t think we are going to see ichigo in the next chapter cos things are a getting a bit too hot with Grantz Ishida and Renji at the moment

the thing with double sword is that there are only 2 shinigami in the possesion of a pair of such dual swords and also the fighting style is designed for it as they always had those twin swords...
and getsuga would not be as effective as a ball form as getsuga isnt called moon slice heaven for nothing its a wave that pierces anything witch has less reiatsu around (like ichigo trying to cut zaraki the first time and he could not cause the pressure of reiatsu covering zaraki was greater then ichigo his power). the ball idea will come up soon with the name Cero so ichigo will have getsuga and cero.
anyway the nxt few chapters will be about renji and ishida and probably orinihime and last ichigo...

Decorus
May 13, 2007, 06:20 PM
Zangetsu isn't the only one sided Bankei created. Ikkaku's only increases his attack power and nothing else.

We do know that Ichigo has yet to gain the full power of his Hollow self.

"If you really intend to have control over my power... Then until I decide to appear the next time do your best not to die"

We do know that Zangetsu can create multiple copies of his spirit form and Ichigo's hollow self can crush Soul Slayers like they are nothing if he gets his hands on them.

hmalik1003
May 13, 2007, 06:55 PM
We do know that Zangetsu can create multiple copies of his spirit form and Ichigo's hollow self can crush Soul Slayers like they are nothing if he gets his hands on them.

zangetsu didn't fo that. the device urahara made did that....the omne yoruichi used to help him abtain bankai

ArcReforged
May 14, 2007, 07:27 AM
We know that Ichigo's Bankai is compressed to give him a concentrated boost in one area, speed. Thus we know that Zangetsu in Bankai mode has most of its poiwer squeezed into speed. But it is also viable that this is not Zangetsu's full power.

Why, you ask?

Because speed can only take you so far; and speed only needs so much. If all of Zangetsu's power was in propelling reiatsu at high velocities, then Ichigo should be stronger, because something that moves faster, regardless of strength, will hit harder (a bullet will hurt more being fired then being thrown). What I'm trying to say here is that though it seems as though Ichigo's Bankai uses crazy speed because of Zangetsu's power, theres even more of where it's coming from.

My theory about how he's gonna develop next is bound to make a lot of people go "ZOMG WTF LOL YOU RETARD" but... ya know... it's a theory.

A parallel I see between Ichigo's compressed Bankai and the Arrancar release is that both begin with a compressed state; that is, both releases are unbinding a compressed version of itself, stored power into full power. When Arrancars release, they show their true form; I think that Ichigo's further release will show Zangetsu's true form; a hybrid of both Shirosaki and Zangetsu ossan; my reasons for this are as follows:

1) Zangetsu, as a whole, is comprised of those two entities, yet you only see one or the other; thus I am convinced that neither Zangetsu ossan nor Shirosaki can be considered as the true representative of Zangetsu itself.

2) When an Arrancar releases, both the hollow form and the human form of the user merges. We know already that Shirosaki is Ichigo's hollow side, and we know that Zangetsu ossan is not a hollow (but counts pretty much as a humanish spiritual avatar) so couldn't Ichigo's full power release be the merging of the two entities?

Now obviously to engage his final transition he needs his Vaizard transformation. What I've noticed so far from Vaizards is that they've obviously attained Bankai in one way or another, but from speculation and extrapolation, none of their zanpaktous are like Ichigo's compressed Bankai. Thus what applies for Ichigo may not apply for the Vaizards.

When Ichigo finally does release his compressed Bankai while in his Vaizard transformation, that should be his very definite final release. Think about it, in terms of power, this would make more sense.

Normal Zanpaktou ---> Shi Kai
Release of a bit power the Zanpaktou's power.

Shi Kai ---> Ban Kai
Release of a lot more power from the Zanpaktou. For most cases this is all the power from the Zanpaktou.

Ban Kai ---> Vaizard transformation
Release of power from inner Hollow

Vaizard transformation + Ban Kai ---> Hybrid transformation
Merging of the Ban Kai (Zangetsu ossan) and the Vaizard transformation (Shirosaki) while releasing the compressed Ban Kai.

That's my 2 cents, criticise away.

Ripht
May 14, 2007, 10:38 AM
yea i posted the idea of his 2 sides merging in the ichigo limiter thread, its the only was that i can see he is goin to defeat the rest of the espasa and then aizen and co. it seems to me that vizards are like the hollows that are just beyond a menos grande they seem to be able to "use" their hollow side but can't compress and focus it well so it just kinda leaks out until the can't hold their masked form anymore. Maybe we will see some kind of of hybrid as in he get more hollow armor. yea so i'm not goin to call anyones theorys retarded not until the truth is revealed in the manga and anime. and then maybe i will laugh at some =P

naru_naru
May 14, 2007, 11:06 AM
We know that Ichigo's Bankai is compressed to give him a concentrated boost in one area, speed. Thus we know that Zangetsu in Bankai mode has most of its poiwer squeezed into speed. But it is also viable that this is not Zangetsu's full power.

Why, you ask?

Because speed can only take you so far; and speed only needs so much. If all of Zangetsu's power was in propelling reiatsu at high velocities, then Ichigo should be stronger, because something that moves faster, regardless of strength, will hit harder (a bullet will hurt more being fired then being thrown). What I'm trying to say here is that though it seems as though Ichigo's Bankai uses crazy speed because of Zangetsu's power, theres even more of where it's coming from.

My theory about how he's gonna develop next is bound to make a lot of people go "ZOMG WTF LOL YOU RETARD" but... ya know... it's a theory.

A parallel I see between Ichigo's compressed Bankai and the Arrancar release is that both begin with a compressed state; that is, both releases are unbinding a compressed version of itself, stored power into full power. When Arrancars release, they show their true form; I think that Ichigo's further release will show Zangetsu's true form; a hybrid of both Shirosaki and Zangetsu ossan; my reasons for this are as follows:

1) Zangetsu, as a whole, is comprised of those two entities, yet you only see one or the other; thus I am convinced that neither Zangetsu ossan nor Shirosaki can be considered as the true representative of Zangetsu itself.

2) When an Arrancar releases, both the hollow form and the human form of the user merges. We know already that Shirosaki is Ichigo's hollow side, and we know that Zangetsu ossan is not a hollow (but counts pretty much as a humanish spiritual avatar) so couldn't Ichigo's full power release be the merging of the two entities?

Now obviously to engage his final transition he needs his Vaizard transformation. What I've noticed so far from Vaizards is that they've obviously attained Bankai in one way or another, but from speculation and extrapolation, none of their zanpaktous are like Ichigo's compressed Bankai. Thus what applies for Ichigo may not apply for the Vaizards.

When Ichigo finally does release his compressed Bankai while in his Vaizard transformation, that should be his very definite final release. Think about it, in terms of power, this would make more sense.

Normal Zanpaktou ---> Shi Kai
Release of a bit power the Zanpaktou's power.

Shi Kai ---> Ban Kai
Release of a lot more power from the Zanpaktou. For most cases this is all the power from the Zanpaktou.

Ban Kai ---> Vaizard transformation
Release of power from inner Hollow

Vaizard transformation + Ban Kai ---> Hybrid transformation
Merging of the Ban Kai (Zangetsu ossan) and the Vaizard transformation (Shirosaki) while releasing the compressed Ban Kai.

That's my 2 cents, criticise away.


kubo has been going out of his way to prevent ichigo becoming unique in the manga. if ichigo gains some kind of ability that surpasses the one aizen is trying to obtain than aizens plans become obsolete. vizards gain a mask that boosts their base reiatsu, i.e: the reiatsu avaliable for them (shinigami reiatsu one half, hollow reiatsu other half of the same overall power source).

hollow-ichigo does not give ichigo a release state, during the inner-world fight hollow ichigo has zangetsu on his back. imo that is the ossan, hes become the recessive of the two as the hollow grew in power. just like how zangetsu used the hollow if he needed, the hollow now uses zangetsu as he pleases (afterall zangetsu is the avatar of the zanpaktou, therefore its most pure form would be a blade).

hollows have different release states than shinigami, however the thing they release is the same as a shinigami/vizard: their zanpaktou. nowhere in the manga has it even hinted towards the inner hollow providing a release state, the vizard gain the mask as proof that they command the power of their inner hollow, it is not sealed and does not provide a release form. depending on how you look at it the mask doubles the reiatsu of the vizard or is just the other half of the vizards overall reiatsu (same difference but stating to assist in explaining my point).

reason why some of people are confused about ichigos bankai is because except for speed it dosnt seem to have much. that is not entirely true, ichigo has just obtained his bankai and just when he sould be learning techniques to utilise the bankai fully, hollow ichigo takes over, but when he does (the byakuya fight, hollow-ichigo uses black getsuga) we see a new tech from him. that shown ichigos bankai has far more potential but atm ichigo cant further his bankai mastery as hollow-ichigo is inhibiting him.

dreamzsai
May 14, 2007, 12:43 PM
Zangetsu's ability have already been revealed to us
--Shikai able to shoot out amplified mass of reiatsu for an attack (getsuga tenshou)
--Bankai increases Ichigo's speed (condensing all of ichigo's power into a small form, ichigo is able to battle swiftly)
--Ichigo's Bankai also makes his Getsuga Tenshous become black and he is able to control the shapes of the Getsuga Tenshous as well.
--Together with his extreme speed, he is seen(or rather his hollow) to have fired Getsuga Tenshous from 2 opposite directions(Byakuya's fight)

Like a few has mentioned, it is possible that Ichigo has not mastered the full potential of his Bankai as he has just acquired it not long ago. The same goes for his "Hollowfication".
However if Ichigo manages to do better with his Bankai, he should be actually able to attack very effectively with the enemy being left unable to defend against his attacks.

Like what his InnerHollow did when they battled each other, he fired a Getsuga Tenshou right after Ichigo blocked his sword from point blank distance. That alone is one of the many deadly tactics/maneuvers that Ichigo can actually use to blast his enemies into smithereens.

But other than seeing Ichigo improving in his fighting skills, i dont think we'll be seeing any new undiscovered abilities of his sword...I also dont think learning Cero will be of any usefulness to Ichigo considering he already has Getsuga Tenshou...

Maybe Ichigo just needs more training to increase his Reiatsu level and maybe his swordsplay and some Binding Kidou.
Or maybe he just needs to do more running to increase his speed even more xD

Decorus
May 14, 2007, 09:33 PM
The Multiple Zangetsu's weren't created by the device, thats one of Zangetsu's powers. Its like swinging the sword by its cloth or chain that the Hollow uses and Ichigo doesn't do. If you think Zangetsu's only abilities as a Bankei is Speed then you would be sorely mistaken, there are probably dozens of abilities Ichigo could learn.

Ichigo's melee skills are already at thier maxium possible improvement as a Shinigami and won't be improving. If you read the Bankei training arc all he did was pretty much improve his combat skills and speed. His Reiatsu level was already higher then most Captains easily as high as Kenpachi.

Koen
May 20, 2007, 07:17 PM
Some time zangetsu will be back, that old man will be back. And ichigo will pwn everyone. Ichigo is the king, and ichigo needs to ride his horse. His hollow side is strong, but imo he's evil strong when that guy goes beserk his strong (look at that vaizard controlling training). But if ichigo wants to be a good strong guy, zangetsu it's the horse to ride on to become a strong king...

I wonder what zangetsu can make him do with his bankai

hmalik1003
May 26, 2007, 11:20 AM
kenpachi has wayyy more reiatsu than ichigo. if u remember the training arc that u r so fond of then u will remember how ichigo combined his reiatsu with zangetsu's reiatsu to beat kenpachi (unassited by his sword's reiatsu) and it wasn't even like he had more reiatsu. they were just about even because the fight ended up in a tie. Kenpachi is a a reiatsu beast. And what proof do u have that it wasn't the device that brought out zangetsu and all the swords

Richo
May 26, 2007, 03:01 PM
kenpachi has wayyy more reiatsu than ichigo. if u remember the training arc that u r so fond of then u will remember how ichigo combined his reiatsu with zangetsu's reiatsu to beat kenpachi (unassited by his sword's reiatsu) and it wasn't even like he had more reiatsu. they were just about even because the fight ended up in a tie. Kenpachi is a a reiatsu beast. And what proof do u have that it wasn't the device that brought out zangetsu and all the swords

the first time zangetsu came out was because ichigo was able to summon zangetsu to real world (same happens when renji his zanpaktou just pops out for a chat with him), and then pulling ichigo into his inner world for training. The second time with his bankai training yoruichi did summon zangetsu into the real world using the special developed doll and everything zangetsu did drained her reiatsu instead of ichigo his as he did not properly know the way to summon zangetsu in the real world yet as it requires training. and last but not least~~, ichigo his reiatsu is always been very high atleast as high as zaraki and perhaps higher back then, right now he has more due his vaizard training.

Impel Down
May 27, 2007, 09:23 AM
His zanpaktou is pretty lame, I must say. Blades of reiatsu? Terrible. He needs to at least be doing attacks like his inner hollow was doing.

Richo
May 27, 2007, 11:30 AM
His zanpaktou is pretty lame, I must say. Blades of reiatsu? Terrible. He needs to at least be doing attacks like his inner hollow was doing.

the powers/abilities of a shinigami represent the personalitie of the shinigami himself like the zanpakatou does resemble the shinigami itself (like toushiro doesnt like the heat he is has the best ice zanpakatou there is) ichigo his special ability does resemble his huge amount of reiatsu else he was unable to use it cause it does consume his reiatsu and fire it away amplified. the shape of getstuga tenshou (moon slice heaven) does resemble the zanpakatou (zangetsu as being moon cutter), every ability of the shinigami does make sense realy~~

the attacks his inner hollow did was nothing special as he did getsuga tenshou also and at the most a cero for now, and some bad ass beserk moves....

Impel Down
May 27, 2007, 11:31 AM
Having lots of energy is not a personality, it's just a defining trait.

Richo
May 27, 2007, 11:44 AM
Having lots of energy is not a personality, it's just a defining trait.

thats a minor detail, but as he has such a natural high amount of reiatsu since his birth such an ability like getsuga tenshou would be obvious or atleast an ability witch drains his reiatsu to work (As he has more then enough of it anyway)
another example is ikkaku as he always loved to fight and was very strong since his birth it would only be obvious that his zanpakatou would represent his power and its lack of kidou (as he sucked it at)

Impel Down
May 27, 2007, 12:11 PM
But it was also "lazy", unlike Ikkaku. How do you explain that, mousieur expert?

Ripht
May 27, 2007, 12:15 PM
ikkaku is lazy too lol
i believe he said in the episode when u see his bankai "he's just like me lazy"
well i think he did anyway.

Impel Down
May 27, 2007, 12:17 PM
No, that was Yumichiga, I think, as to why his Bankai wouldn't work.

Richo
May 27, 2007, 01:19 PM
But it was also "lazy", unlike Ikkaku. How do you explain that, mousieur expert?

ikkaku said that unlike himself his zanpakatou is lazy (if you would know anything about humanity there are always exceptions from the normal pattern), so plz dont make it look insulting. i was using ikkaku only for an example and as in his zanpakatou was a lazy bum was just a filler by the anime it wasnt stated in the manga... (i could have used hitsugaya, rangiku or renji also as a example)
also the zanpakatou does represent the personality and the abilities also represent the abilities of its user (the zanpakatou isnt identical to its user and i never said that either)

ps.
also a reason why Yumichiga cant achieve bankai is cause he totaly ignores (his squad would probably hate him because off the unwritten rule that everyone from the 11th squad must fight like its captain) its powers by it own desires to fight along and equal to his comrades from 11th squad (in the contrary of his own kidou based zanpakatou)

naru_naru
May 27, 2007, 01:31 PM
205/206 has no mention of ikkaku saying his zanpaktou is lazy anime doesnt always follow the manga; thats why most ppl dont quote the anime.

yanniv
May 27, 2007, 02:09 PM
Make sure you compare all the scans and see if they say the same thing. Sometimes one scan will say something completely different than another scan.

naru_naru
May 27, 2007, 03:03 PM
Make sure you compare all the scans and see if they say the same thing. Sometimes one scan will say something completely different than another scan.

just checked 2 scanlations, the one i d/l was from a bit torrent and for some reason there was no scanlation group. the other scanlation was from m7 both mangas report almost identical translation and there is no mention of the lazy concept.

maybe anime were trying to fill the plot-hole: why didnt ichigo get a taste of ikkaku's bankai.

anyway this has been resolved and off-topic so probably best to stop unless someone wants to make a thread about this otherwise mods will just delete our posts.

Impel Down
May 27, 2007, 04:01 PM
Well, this whole topic was just mangled anyway, so I'm just gonna go back and say Zangestu sucks.

yanniv
May 27, 2007, 04:23 PM
Zangestu currently doesn't have anything really special. Though this could change seeing it's the sword that belongs to the main hero.

naru_naru
May 27, 2007, 07:58 PM
if zangetsu is to produce more things in the future ichigo must tame the hollow as it is the hollow that is preventing ichigo moving forward.

Richo
May 28, 2007, 02:52 AM
Zangestu currently doesn't have anything really special. Though this could change seeing it's the sword that belongs to the main hero.

we also cant expect anything special like kidou abilities as ichigo would first need to learn controlling kidou, the only thing we can expect anytime soon is ichigo learning Cero, and some stuff like getsuga tenshou


if zangetsu is to produce more things in the future ichigo must tame the hollow as it is the hollow that is preventing ichigo moving forward.
all ichigo can do right now is w8 for his hollow to drag him in the inside world again, and give some sort of lesson (witch mostly resolves around him trying to crush ichigo his skill and taking over~~)

Ripht
May 28, 2007, 04:35 AM
all ichigo can do right now is w8 for his hollow to drag him in the inside world again, and give some sort of lesson (witch mostly resolves around him trying to crush ichigo his skill and taking over~~)

i think this will happen in the next manga chapter because ichigo is in another one of those situations that his hollow etc likes to drag him into his inner world.

Impel Down
May 28, 2007, 07:41 AM
Ichigo's hollow should go crazy and destroy Ulq and Aizen. That would make me love Bleach again.

Ripht
May 28, 2007, 10:44 AM
Ichigo's hollow should go crazy and destroy Ulq and Aizen. That would make me love Bleach again.

that would kinda kill the whole series tho. i think the point is that aizen will survive the arc and then aizen and ichi will fight in front of the king of ss or something. but yea ichi rocks and we'll see progress in his powers soon i would bet

Impel Down
May 28, 2007, 11:25 AM
Yeah, he had better learn to wear his mask longer or something. That, or the Vaizard could just become the new main characters and save the world.

roxas_strife
May 29, 2007, 12:13 PM
Thats true and thats something I really thought about too, the fact stands that Ichigo is the only one who, as far as we know, gained both shinigami and hollow powers at the exact same time. He may have had shinigami powers before, but he gained HIS powers the same moment he was becoming a hollow, and his familiarity with being a shinigami is what made that side so dominant in the beginning.

So to reference to what you were saying it is a possibility that because they happened at the same time, Ichigo's hollow and shinigami powers could have bled into each other, as we can see since Hollow ichigo fades back into Zangetsu's body.

That is could be why his bankai alters and enhances his own body instead of making an exterior weapon to use like other's bankai, much in a hollow fashion, this could also be why as we can see when Ichigo is going hollow in the basement of the vizard building, the hollow form looks so human.



You are right, it very well could be either yours or my theory which are correct, or possibly a combination of the two. Very interesting lol.

you have a really interesting theory I like it I have had the same theory before and I think it may be both because it does seem to have many things pointing to it but another theory I have is that in order to go bankai Ichigo has to learn how to shrink his blade like a normal shinigami would but with Ichigo it takes an opposite way and goes bankai and I think this may be why his sword doesn't leave shikai so he won't be able to shrink his blade unless he is going bankai

Impel Down
May 29, 2007, 12:52 PM
Well, wasn't that already proved when Byakuya said it was a major compression of all his reiatsu?

roxas_strife
May 29, 2007, 05:18 PM
i believe that he hasn't reached bankai yet. He started off with that huge sword which wasn't his because he was given rukia's powers. Then while training with uruahara he unlocked his own powers and got his own sword, it then stayed in this form and didn't power down. Which suggests to me that this is his non released form. Then in soul society he managed to unlock a release which he called bankai, i believe this is wrongly named and actually this is only his part released form. Also after just watching the lastest episode of bleach i picked up on something that one of the charaters said while fighting ichigo, he said something like " i should have reliased you can't even use bankai" i don't remember that text being in the manga at all. Interesting

this is more than likely cause it is a filler cause in many of the fillers he can't use his bankai
[hr]
ehh maybe I don't know exactly I would need to read over it again but I think I am right

Slippers
May 30, 2007, 09:04 PM
I just thought of something. What is Ichigo's zanpaktou can do more than that? You know Inoue's powers? At the begining when she got them, they said that her powers originated from Ichigo. So I was thinking that maybe Inoue's powers are kinda like a reflection of Ichigo's undiscovered powers.

Just an idea, dont think it's true though

Richo
May 31, 2007, 02:26 AM
I just thought of something. What is Ichigo's zanpaktou can do more than that? You know Inoue's powers? At the begining when she got them, they said that her powers originated from Ichigo. So I was thinking that maybe Inoue's powers are kinda like a reflection of Ichigo's undiscovered powers.

Just an idea, dont think it's true though

you got a point there, however ichigo his lack of control of his reiatsu has made an influence on chad and inoue meaningly that they developed certain powers witch reflect themselfs (same reason why captain and vice captain class pple get their power sealed away by about 2/3). I personaly doubt thsoe powers represent undiscoverd powers of ichigo. (i cant realy explain but its just an opinion)

Slippers
May 31, 2007, 08:27 PM
you got a point there, however ichigo his lack of control of his reiatsu has made an influence on chad and inoue meaningly that they developed certain powers witch reflect themselfs (same reason why captain and vice captain class pple get their power sealed away by about 2/3). I personaly doubt thsoe powers represent undiscoverd powers of ichigo. (i cant realy explain but its just an opinion)

I guess so, but if you look at Chad's holloiw abilities, only a little while later, Ichigo got the same abilities.
And Hatchi also mentions Inoue's ability similar to a zanpaktou's

Vicil
June 01, 2007, 02:19 AM
How much strength do you think one would need to have to move faster than site? Speed and strength are not mutually exclusive.

Impel Down
June 01, 2007, 03:14 PM
Well, for shunpo and sonido and whatever the Quincy one is, it's not really strength, they just coat their feet in reiatsu, right?

Richo
June 01, 2007, 03:39 PM
its only known that the quincy use it that way (cover their feet with the spirit particles of themselfs or in the air), its not told how shinigami or hollow use it, cause as far i recall the quincy version is superior to the hollow and shinigami one (their versability lies within their movement speed as they still wield a bow and not a sword)

Impel Down
June 01, 2007, 04:19 PM
Well, yeah, I guess. But they only ever explain Quincy moves anyway, so that's really the only one we're going to get to know about.

nordicbattlesigns
November 14, 2007, 03:03 AM
Lately we have a LOT of speculation about more powerups for Ichigo (or making better use of what he already has) his mask and whether he did or didn't have one of those inner world moments/lessons to dispense with the 11 second limit while fighting Grimmjow.

If there are more powers or abilities up his sleeve, what form would they take?

Bleach seems to have many elements which could potentially come into play. I'm specifically thinking about Tensa Zangetsu here - with bankai comes speed and enhanced fighting ability, but beyond this and the black Getsuga Tenshou which his hollow self made first (and best?) use of, we are left to wonder: is that it?

In shikai we had the hilt wrapper, bankai the few links of chain. Hollow Ichigo demonstrated a fairly awesome use of the hilt wrapper to swing Zangetsu around in the inner world. An ability hardly used by Ichigo himself (save in a moment of looking cool before destroying the Soukyoku and I can't remember if that was both manga/anime or just the anime) and not at all in a fight. Wasted potential at the very least. Achieving bankai so soon after, and since Ichigo tends more to fight in bankai in any case, we never really got an idea of how effective or not that technique might be. Tensa Zangetsu's chain is only a few links, hardly seeming sufficient length to use the same way. Was this simply for the coolness factor in the weapon design?

I believe we have (few) other examples of chained weapons - the 2nd Lieutenant has a great flail form for his shikai and is Ikkaku's Hozukimaru segmented with chain or cord? Hitsugaya has an attacking chain at the end of his zanpaktou in one of the games (other media?) - hardly canon but interesting all the same. Unfortunately I have no references right in front of me to double check. In all these cases, these would seem to be purely functional chains.

Now after all that blather comes the fun part - random speculation. The length of Tensa Zangetsu's chain seems oddly similar (lengthwise at least, possibly link count) to Ichigo's chain of fate back in the Shattered Shaft in the last moments before its final hunger frenzy. Could a new power or ability manifest from the weapon's chain after eating itself up in the same fashion?

Discuss!

gfire2
November 14, 2007, 04:18 AM
wow nice theory, i like it

but if it gets too long like noitorias then it aint good

Ripht
November 14, 2007, 12:39 PM
I like your post, your english is extremly good and you put your point forward in a very straight forward an understandable manner. Thanks for taking the type to write that perfect post, much respect.

Anyway as soon as i saw the title of the thread i knew exactly what you where talking about, and its a great idea. The chain i think shows how controling he is of his hollow, like when the soul chain disappears the person becomes and hollow so no chain on his sword would mean full hollow mode, allowing him and his hollow to fight side by side lending eachother their power, and a longer chain would mean that ichigo is using more of his shinigami power and not his hollow side. Its a great idea and would make alot of sense. But it seems to me that the makers wouldn't be bothered to go into soooo much detail on just this chain.

So possible but unlikly the writers thought of it, and it was more of a "wow that chain looks awesome"

AngryChubbs
November 14, 2007, 03:38 PM
yea, i think the chain was more of a wow, that looks sweet rather than the chain having more background than some characters. i think holliw ichigo using the chain and stuff to fling the sword around was to show that he was more of a berserker and just a crazy fighter than ichigo. i think it made him look cool and that it showed he had a complely inovative fighting style and could do just about anything he wanted with the sword.

other tan that, i dont think that the chain has a deeper meaning

squidbreath
November 18, 2007, 09:47 AM
It's a fashion statement!!!

Hyperworm
November 20, 2007, 11:46 AM
It's quite possible that it's simply decorative. However there's no doubt that the chain is of importance to Tensa Zangetsu - it wouldn't be Tensa without the chain! :)
”Zangetsu" = "Moon Slayer"
"Tensa Zangetsu" = "Divine Chained Moon Slayer"
This doesn't imply that the chain is relevant to the sword's ability. In Bankai state, Ashisogi Jizou gains the prefix "Konjiki" ("Golden"), which is purely to do with the Bankai's appearance and has nothing whatsoever to do with its ability. So it's quite possible that the chain's only there as an artefact of the name (or the other way around).

But even if it wasn't planned from the beginning, if Kubo-san was going to give Ichigo a new move, I think the chain would be up there on the list of ideas along with "space-rending cuts". I could see the chain snapping (like Ichigo v Renji fight 1), sending Ichigo into an uber-mode where time is slowed for everyone except him (at the cost of draining massive amounts of spirit power). Links in the chain would correspond to move timelimit (like Daiguren Hyourinmaru).

Hm, looks like all my ideas are recycled XD

Nothing to do but wait and see really ;p In any case Ichigo could do with more variety, right now he can't even use demon arts ;)

Wire
December 30, 2007, 02:20 AM
Ichigo has over all done a really poor job of getting to know Zangetsu. Which I find absurd. He has yet develop any techniques besides the Getsuga.
H Ichigo said that he was the first to use Getsuga Tenshou in bankai and that Ichigo just copied him. So does that mean Ichigo has yet to actually learn the "Bankai Getsuga". Could that also mean he has only tried to fire it hollow energy and not yet his usual spirit energy?*


Which reminds me that Ichigo charged into Hueco Mundo with developing any skill with his mask either. Its getting dumb. It would be pretty awful for Ichigo to defeat the top three in Espada with the same obvious slashing techniques... It's not good for a story to end with exploring its main character.
Ichigo is still trying to "...make a stranger [his] friend just by asking his name."



*(This would explain the red glow that acompanies the technique in the anime... His aura was at first light blue. So far everyone else has maintained this trait and a black and blue Getsga would make more sense than a black and red one.)

AngryChubbs
January 03, 2008, 11:28 PM
just because he copied the techinique from shirosaki doesn't mean that he hasn't learned any techniques. dont forget, shirosaki and ichigo are in a sense, the same being so if one of them learns something....they techinically both learn it

genkizen
January 12, 2008, 12:59 AM
Wire brings up a good point though, Ichigo only really knows 1 move, which annoys me to no end. He only knows Getsuga Tenshou.
He needs to learn some more stuff. Kubo needs to throw us a bone her.

It's something both Bleach and Naruto suffer from. Lead characters who use the same few techniques over and over again when everyone around them have a wealth of moves. But Im cursed cuz I still love both mangas! =(

Splat
January 12, 2008, 03:17 PM
can't remember when exactly he said it, but at some point, hichigo taunted ichigo for getting beaten, when he had such a good zanpakutoh. this says to me that zangetsu is so good that ichigo didn't need any sword skills, just a will to win. from that then it's reasonable to assume that now ichigo has some sword skill, if he were to learn zangetsu's power properly he could gain a huge power up, along with extra moves etc.

Marvstar
January 14, 2008, 11:21 AM
In Ichigo's fight with Grimmjow it seemed his will to fight made me feel that he's more or less becoming a hack and slash type fighter.

I don't wanna go through the chapters again so you may correct me if I'm wrong;

I recall Ichigo saying "I came to the soul society to fight you" and Grimmjow taunting him, saying "You want to fight"

I think the way it's going Ichigo is slowly pushing his Zanpakutou away, much like Kenpachi is. I think soon he'll recognise that he needs to give Zangetsu more recognition to defeat stronger enemies...

decadencia
January 14, 2008, 05:35 PM
Wire brings up a good point though, Ichigo only really knows 1 move, which annoys me to no end. He only knows Getsuga Tenshou.
He needs to learn some more stuff. Kubo needs to throw us a bone her.

It's something both Bleach and Naruto suffer from. Lead characters who use the same few techniques over and over again when everyone around them have a wealth of moves. But Im cursed cuz I still love both mangas! =(

^You know, i have always wondered, how come Ichigo doesnt mix martial arts (which we know he knows) into his sword fighting? and how do you think ichigo can go about learning to do a cero? i really wanna see that...

anyway, what kinds of things do you imagine he can learn form zangetsu? i mean, when u think about it, everyone elses shikai transforms their sword so that they can perform some moves. like renji has things he can do with zabimaru only because of its shikai release like when they fought aizen in volume 20. but ichigo has a constant release sword so all he really can do is shot stuff from it... unless he learns how to change zangetsus shape i dont think there is much ichigo can learn... not from zangetsu anyway... shirosaki is a diff story though, i think he can def pick up some things form him...

Decorus
January 14, 2008, 06:38 PM
Ichigo could learn the multiple Zangetsu technique. As for Shirosaki well he is planning on teaching Ichigo how to use his power later. Its not time yet....

gfire2
January 15, 2008, 02:54 AM
well for starters i wanna see ichigo pull off the getsuga that shirosaki pulled off wen he fought byakuya. ichigo just does a simple one but shirosaki does a continous and a long getsuga

mestizo311
January 15, 2008, 04:48 AM
I'm hoping Kubo gives Ichigo at least one more move to use. I wouldn't be too excited if all he would learn was a cero though. Granted it is a strong move but everyone and their mother has been firing ceros in this arc. Personally, I think it's getting played out. Besides I've always thought that the red reiatsu around Ichigo's Getsuga was his compressed hollow reiatsu. Making his getsuga tensho basically a different form of cero.

Richo
January 25, 2008, 10:09 AM
Ichigo could learn the multiple Zangetsu technique. As for Shirosaki well he is planning on teaching Ichigo how to use his power later. Its not time yet....

ichigo can already make shadow images of himself against his enemies when he is bankai (much like the 7th espada was able to, those 2 where also the only ones who could move at that speed to create shadow images of themselfs).
I hope to see ichigo more using the techniques His hollow uses (like the throwing of the sword against his enemies.)

Mifune_Taichou
June 15, 2009, 11:29 AM
Ok this may seem crazy but hear me out. Me and a friend came up with this while originally speculating on Benihime's powers, but while its still possible for this to apply to Benihime, it seems more likely thats it applies to Zangetsu.

In a nutshell (and sorry if someone has said this before), I think that Zangetsu has "copycat"/kidou based mimic powers. I think that would explain a lot about Ichigo. Zangetsu has displayed an ability to observe other Zanpakutoh as he did with Zaraki's and Urahara said he can sense the fear reflected in Zangetsu-this suggests that perhaps there is some underlying level at which zanpakutohs can communicate or at least observe each other in battle.

The first two Zanpakutoh Ichogo/Zangetsu saw released were Zabimaru and Benihime. Zabimaru extends and Benihime fires out energy. Now when Ichigo went shikai, what abilities did Zangetsu have-he can fire out energy and the cloth expands continually which means it can "extend" and be used as a flail. The cloth thing so far seems unique to Zangetsu so its not that much of a stretch to call it an ability/property.

Then upon achieving Bankai, Ichigo gained a souped up version of getsuga which he can direct, which seems a direct progression of his shikai so thats fair enough. He also has l337 speed however which Byakuya guessed has something to do with the compression of energy but thats just his guess. If i was going to push my theory furthers I'd say he absorbed/copied Yoruichi's super shunpo skills and added them to his bankai as an ability-this could happen if Zangetsu is actually kido based and keeps using some mimicing spell.

There's also the thing about Shirosaki learning bankai when Ichigo did-we havent had any explaination of how this works with Vaizard so it could be standard that your hollow knows everything you do, but since Shirosaki absorbed Zangetsu it could also be him using Zangetsu's ability..on Ichigo.

Another possibility I was musing over is Zangetsu having power over time like when he seemingly stopped time in the Zaraki fight...this hasnt been explained at all but we havent seen any other Zanpakuto do it.

Soo post your ideas on this theory/theories and hopefully I wont get flamed too badly lol

Josear XIII
June 15, 2009, 12:26 PM
Well for me it sounds kinda impossible, the why is quite simple, Ichigo as a main character has to get useful things to beat someone in a battle, Ichigo has never used zangetsu the way hollow ichigo used it, is just a way of using swords in a practical way, that sides.

i cant deny the fact that it was copy that zangetsu has the same power slash that benihime has, but... i could see this theory as a good one if the bankai were copied from another zanpakutoh, but extending this ability to copy other than zanpakutoh is just hax, thats why i cant see it as valid.

Bankai Tensa zangetsu, was just a bankai formed by the need of ichigo to surpass or at least match Byakuya's speed, since he knew he was strong, he just lacked speed. remember that Yuroichi herself told ichigo that not even her could match byakuya, only ichigo would. Or that i was told in one of the threads

And remember that Hollow side is you but evil, so, of course if you learn something, your hollow side will learn it.

En Yang Ji
June 21, 2009, 01:56 AM
I think Ichigo's theme is concentration. Getsuga Tensho concentrates his reiatsu into a single point and than releases it. Tensa Zangetsu condenses the power of his bankai into a normal size blade.

Also Kubo keeps emphasizing Ichigo's increasing concentration

look at these:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/109/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/341/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/341/11/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/341/12/


http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/129/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/132/15/

1TrueSensei
June 21, 2009, 04:03 AM
This is actually a pretty good theory. Besides being a pure attack-style Zanpaktou, Zangetsu could basically act as a focus for Ichigo's reiatsu, be it Shinigami or Hollow. In other words, his Zanpaktou allows him to focus and actively use his massive amounts of reiatsu by condensing and refining it through the blade. While other Shinigami are trained in their usage of reiatsu over the course of years, Ichigo didn't have that time. Thus Zangetsu probably adapted itself so that it's abilities would be to augment and refine Ichigo's natural abilities.

Think about it. Zangetsu was needed for Ichigo to heal himself when fighting Zaraki. And Ichigo's Hollow didn't try to take him over directly, but rather it went through his Zanpaktou. Without Zangetsu actively working to refine Ichigo's powers, Ichigo could not use them to hold back his Hollow. He basically didn't have enough experience with it to do so without Zangetsu's help.

jm2191544
July 19, 2009, 10:44 PM
Actually, it was stated in an official source (that I unfortunately do NOT remember the name of or exactly where it was) that Ichigo's Bankai merely lets him fight at his full potential, meaning his shikai is likely innately cumbersome, heavy, and/or slow, which prevents him from utilizing his full physical ability. His Bankai merely COMPRESSES the power of his zanpakuto, similar to how the force of a gas increases the more it is compressed. It also explains why his Bankai innitially caused his skeleton to crack-his entire body was under an enormous amount of compression.

Starzen
July 20, 2009, 07:21 AM
I don't agree with you and care to provide your so called source. you can't reach bankai with out reaching your potential in shikai.

Ozehro
July 22, 2009, 04:16 AM
what if tensa zangetsu's ultimate technique is a shadow clone.
I mean it goes nice with the whole speed demon theme right?
I think zangetsu has just been silently observing Ichigo and shiroski.
and when Ichigo finally matches shirosaki he will reveal the clone technique to him.
so shirosaki and ichigo can literally share the battlefield!

Mifune_Taichou
July 22, 2009, 05:12 AM
what if tensa zangetsu's ultimate technique is a shadow clone.
I mean it goes nice with the whole speed demon theme right?
I think zangetsu has just been silently observing Ichigo and shiroski.
and when Ichigo finally matches shirosaki he will reveal the clone technique to him.
so shirosaki and ichigo can literally share the battlefield!

That would be awesome. Also i really want Zangetsu back-he was really cool and Ichigos shinigami powers were much much stronger when he was in control.

The only thing id say about the shadow clone is that it would be ripping off Black Star from Soul eater and KT has already ripped off Death the Kid heavily so...but then again Soul Eater rips off/on Bleach left right and centre

Exodi
July 22, 2009, 05:22 AM
That would be awesome. Also i really want Zangetsu back-he was really cool and Ichigos shinigami powers were much much stronger when he was in control.

The only thing id say about the shadow clone is that it would be ripping off Black Star from Soul eater and KT has already ripped off Death the Kid heavily so...but then again Soul Eater rips off/on Bleach left right and centre

Isn't Bleach older than Soul Eater....it's the other way around...

Mifune_Taichou
July 22, 2009, 05:29 AM
Isn't Bleach older than Soul Eater....it's the other way around...

That doesnt matter because Black Star has been using the shadow clone in Soul Eater for while now and if KT comes out with this now it would be a rip off-it doesnt really matter that bleach as a whole is older

Exodi
July 22, 2009, 07:33 AM
That doesnt matter because Black Star has been using the shadow clone in Soul Eater for while now and if KT comes out with this now it would be a rip off-it doesnt really matter that bleach as a whole is older

You're right. I was thinking of something else when I typed that.

Zatono
July 22, 2009, 12:50 PM
so shirosaki and ichigo can literally share the battlefield!

No pls. Shirosaki would just be overkill, he'd just be screaming and raping everything with GT and speed afterimages.

As for zangetsu, he's really sucking. His bankai was good for like 10 chapters then it just became crap.

It's probably that Ichigo is doing something wrong though, like maybe he's supposed to wrap that thing that on his shoulder when he's in shikai, on his shikai and then say bankai.

Revolation
July 22, 2009, 01:01 PM
i discussed this all in my thread which the mods moved into another thread that didn't even relate, but i still have a link to that thread which is now a post in my sig, but this is your thread Oz, so w/e

i think ichigo will get new moves once shiro is not in control of zangetsu, or shiro takes over and uses i different move(since he IS zangetsu) and ichigo just copies again like he did with black getusga which was hollow influenced. i want to post all my thoughts but it would be too long and look like a thread hi-jack. lol oh well, i said the important parts of the post anyway, although i think this thread will get moved to the black hole thread of ichigo development threads like mine did?
if they move threads like that they might as well float it or sticky it up to the top like they did with the zaraki shikai thread. thats just a suggestion.

Ozehro
July 22, 2009, 10:44 PM
No pls. Shirosaki would just be overkill, he'd just be screaming and raping everything with GT and speed afterimages.
As for zangetsu, he's really sucking. His bankai was good for like 10 chapters then it just became crap.
It's probably that Ichigo is doing something wrong though, like maybe he's supposed to wrap that thing that on his shoulder when he's in shikai, on his shikai and then say bankai.

you missed my point dude. I'm saying it's a clone technique.
and right now this clone shirosaki is miles above Ichigo. so my theory is that Zangetu
is waiting until Ichigo catches up to shirosaki level. and at that point he will
reveal the ultimate technique in his bankai. fighting as two!
besides it's very clear how zangetu teaches. he doesn't lecture Ichigo.
he wants Ichigo to fall in to problems and get himself out of it.
he didn't even teach Ichigo the black GT! a very tough and strict teacher.:darn

AKguy92
June 10, 2010, 06:51 AM
Ok, sorry for the thread ressurection, but I read something on a different site and decided to show it, as well as a theory of my own.


Ichigo said that the coat he wears is effectively part of his bankai when he was talking to Unohana. That means, the coat could be used in effectively the same manner as Ichigo's sword, since it too is part of tensa zangetsu. That means, this final getsuga tenshou might have absolutely nothing to do with Ichigo's sword - it might have everything to do, rather, with the *rest* of his bankai.

For example, in it's basic functionality, we know Getsuga causes zangetsu to eat a chunk of reiatsu from Ichigo and concentrate it into a point. Judging by the various shapes and sizes of the different getsuga tenshou's Ichigo has used over the chapters since he acquired the ability, I think it's a safe bet that he can control the concentration and amount. Since Ichigo can use Getsuga Tenshou in bankai, and his coat is also part of his bankai, it's plausible to thus theorize that it might be possible for Ichigo to use this mechanism in other parts of his bankai.

But what advantage would this give Ichigo, really? It's not like being able to Getsuga through his sleeve is going to give him any offensive advantage against Aizen, so why would he even want to do something like this?

Remember back to the fight against Byakuya when Ichigo gained his bankai? During that fight, Ichigo displayed tremendous levels of speed - levels of speed that he hasn't displayed since, unless you believe that every enemy that Ichigo has since fought is at least that fast - which creates several plot holes regarding the relative capacity of the captains and Ichigo's effectiveness as a whole. No, I think it's possible that it isn't that everyone that Ichigo's faced has been that fast or faster, it's that Ichigo wont try to go that fast, combined with his inner hollow siphoning away his power over time. If you think of it that way, everything starts to make sense.

But getting back to the real subject at hand - with the above statement in mind, Ichigo using the mechanism of Getsuga Tenshou on the rest of his bankai has one clear advantage; fortification. In essence, by pooling a getsuga tenshou into the rest of his bankai, Ichigo could obtain a shield that could not only protect his body from harm like an arrancar's heirro, but more importantly, reinforce him from the pressure of his own reiatsu and allow him to move at max speed with impunity.

What's more, there is a basis for this if you squint. Back during his battles in Hueco Mundo, Ichigo used a varient of the Getsuga Tensho to fortify his sword blows - instead of releasing the reiatsu from the edge of tensa zangetsu, he left it in place to power up his basic swordplay. In effect, using the mechanic for Getsuga in his coat is the same thing, just for a different purpose.

But let's take it one step further; what happens when he releases the energy from the parts of his bankai that aren't his blade? The discharge of energy given off by Getsuga Tenshou is large and fast, able to accelerate past Ichigo while he's moving and reach a target before he does. With that general idea in mind - if Ichigo can use the same mechanism in the rest of his Bankai, could he not theoretically release energy from the rest of his bankai at specific points to effectively grant himself even greater short term acceleration and speed?

Imagine it like this. Ichigo and Gin are having another fight, and Ichigo has access to the theoretical pimpcoat getsuga, and they're swordlocked. Gin tilts his bankai down towards Ichigo to stab him, and before Gin is able to effectively fire the blast, Ichigo releases a concentrated burst from his coat out of his left shoulder, sending him at ridiculous speeds to the right and evading Gin's bankai, while not taking any measure of damage since his right side is still protected by the energy from the full-body getsuga. Ichigo then uses his standard super-bankai speed to dash around behind Gin, and fire off a full powered normal Getsuga from his blade at Gin's unprotected back.

Now, as for my own theory: I believe that Zangetsu's true power will be much like Orihime's power to reject what she wants to. I think that Zangetsu's true power, or Final Getsuga Tensho, will be to reject what ever the energy beam hits and return it to it's normal state or to turn everything into pure reishi. I believe this matches the 'moon' theme of Zangetsu because the moon exists in space apart from earth bound physics. Perhaps GT is Zangetsu's way of imparting quantum physics to earth, seperating what is known as real and what is truly real.

THM Nindo
June 11, 2010, 06:52 PM
That would be awesome. Also i really want Zangetsu back-he was really cool and Ichigos shinigami powers were much much stronger when he was in control.

The only thing id say about the shadow clone is that it would be ripping off Black Star from Soul eater and KT has already ripped off Death the Kid heavily so...but then again Soul Eater rips off/on Bleach left right and centre

Shadow clone was first seen (as far as I know) in Dragon Ball, so every shadow clone in any manga is a rip off from Dragon Ball... :tem

I think that it's pretty clear now that Getsuga Tenshou is NOT Zangetsu ability since Isshin can do it too... (unless Ichigo got his ability from Isshin since it's his father)...

I'd like to see the real thing!!

niblack89
June 14, 2010, 01:34 PM
I wanna know about how they can use the same getsuga and how his father is teaching him the final stage and not zangetsu. So does isshin have zangetsu, if so do they have the same Bankai?

bleach fan 101
October 19, 2010, 05:17 PM
does anyone find it wierd that Zangetsu is the only zanpaktou that we have seen that is completely human in appearence, could this be a hint about his uniqueness?

kkck
October 19, 2010, 08:27 PM
^we have not seen other zampakuto other than hitsugaya's and renji's though. We haven't seen nearly enough of them to make such a case. If you are referring to the filler guys though (who BTW have no place in this forum), shunsui's and ukitake's are just about as human. Hitsugaya's zampakuto also would seem more special than either of them (strongest ice zampakuto and when not in full power it becomes manageable enough to one shot tercera) too.

Jorge D. Dragon
October 20, 2010, 02:11 AM
does anyone find it wierd that Zangetsu is the only zanpaktou that we have seen that is completely human in appearence, could this be a hint about his uniqueness?
It's not unique thre is also Engetsu who is pretty the same zan though. Maybe they are related like father and son or brothers.

P.S. Does anyone know what Engetsu means?

According to Bleach wikia, Engetsu means 'scathing moon'

bleach fan 101
October 20, 2010, 02:40 PM
^we have not seen other zampakuto other than hitsugaya's and renji's though. We haven't seen nearly enough of them to make such a case. If you are referring to the filler guys though (who BTW have no place in this forum), shunsui's and ukitake's are just about as human. Hitsugaya's zampakuto also would seem more special than either of them (strongest ice zampakuto and when not in full power it becomes manageable enough to one shot tercera) too.

i was on about names (zabimaru) and commands (like bloom, etc) as well

and engetsu has various meanings all revolving aruond razor/ scathing moon

Jorge D. Dragon
October 30, 2010, 02:16 PM
I was just thinking about Karin becoming Shinigami... It would be funny if she also gets zanpaktou like Isshin and Ichigo have. It can also be Getsu but with some other prefix.
Would be really interesting.