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bax
April 26, 2007, 10:15 PM
The RAW is out guys!! Get it HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12114)
Big thanx to Asakura and M7 for the RAW :amuse

After done downloading and reading, go ahead and say your thoughts on what will happened in the next chapter.

Looks like Grimmjow suddenly appeared and saved Inoue. One thing to argue for sure, will Aizen let it go or will he get his hands on Grimmjow :o Wait? No Ichigo in this chapter? What happened to him? Ishida's performance is absolutely outstanding too :o

What will happen next?

Predict away guys :amuse

SporkNinja
April 26, 2007, 11:30 PM
I can see Grimmjow asking for another favor such as healing Ichigo if he is still alive and not spazzing out has his hollow form.

Ishida will own Zael unreleased then gets owned by the typical shounen format, when Zeal releases. Ishida and Renji will give it their all Bankai + Whatever Quincy Equivalent.

djgernade
April 27, 2007, 12:39 AM
I can see Grimmjow asking for another favor such as healing Ichigo if he is still alive and not spazzing out has his hollow form.

Ishida will own Zael unreleased then gets owned by the typical shounen format, when Zeal releases. Ishida and Renji will give it their all Bankai + Whatever Quincy Equivalent.

yeah me too thats what i think as well. but i hope they dont have "the hollow within" crap come out again. at least not till the next arc or the one after that.

i also see grimjaww asking orihime for some "evil" favor, like... maybe helping him steal some something. or help him kill some one, or use her as back up to heal him while he does something.

i can also see orihime being forced to go against her friends by some way in the near future... hmm???

MightyPee
April 27, 2007, 02:39 AM
Im kind of hoping the hollow in ichigo starts raising hell he did say that once ichigo falls off the horse he would be right back on top.

Silhouette
April 27, 2007, 02:59 AM
I don't think we will see what GJ plan is (but I don't think it has anything to do with Ichigo being healed though).

We will see what the darkness surrounding Ichigo is (please let it be Zangetsu)
IShida will find out that Zaer isn't so easy to defeat when Zaer releases.

juUnior
April 27, 2007, 05:29 AM
I think that the next chapter will be focused only on fight Ishida vs Apollo, rather then some info what grimi wants to do with Orihime :x And maybe it will be the time of realsed version of Apollo, that would be nice ^^

Dimma
April 27, 2007, 06:04 AM
We'll see a continuation of the fight with Apollo, but I doubt it will conclude next chapter. My bet is we'll see either what Grimmjaw wants with Orihime, or we'll see what's happening with Ichigo. We might even see all three if Grimmjaw brings Orihime to Ichigo, as many people speculate.

What if Grimmjaw wants Orihime to mess up Aizen's plans? He might use her that way. I definately get an anti-Aizen vibe from Grimmjaw. As to what he wants her to do though I have no idea.

gigantor21
April 27, 2007, 07:30 AM
^Hopefully, it will be all three. There wasn't much going on during this chapter, story-wise.

And I really don't want Zangetsu OR Hollow Ichigo to come back during this arc. Maybe one of them can help heal his wounds, but I don't want a rehash of the Zaraki or Byakuya fights.

SporkNinja
April 27, 2007, 10:17 AM
^Hopefully, it will be all three. There wasn't much going on during this chapter, story-wise.

And I really don't want Zangetsu OR Hollow Ichigo to come back during this arc. Maybe one of them can help heal his wounds, but I don't want a rehash of the Zaraki or Byakuya fights.

How do you suppose Ichigo will regain some balance and/or another powerup to finish off Ulg and possibly Grimm? I can't really see him getting stronger without one of them. More than likely going to see Shirosaki if Ichigo is gonna powerup again, but the shreds of darkness is more of Zangetsu's style.. such as he appeared to Ichigo in the Zaraki fight. I would rather see Zangetsu. I haven't seen that bad ass gothic old man in a long time.

ANBU4U
April 27, 2007, 11:59 AM
I don't think we will see what GJ plan is (but I don't think it has anything to do with Ichigo being healed though).

We will see what the darkness surrounding Ichigo is (please let it be Zangetsu)
IShida will find out that Zaer isn't so easy to defeat when Zaer releases.

Bankai...fading away. Its clearly shown. More than likely that last frame was just little shreds of reiatsu that formed his bankai outfit floating away.
-

How do you suppose Ichigo will regain some balance and/or another powerup to finish off Ulg and possibly Grimm? I can't really see him getting stronger without one of them. More than likely going to see Shirosaki if Ichigo is gonna powerup again, but the shreds of darkness is more of Zangetsu's style.. such as he appeared to Ichigo in the Zaraki fight. I would rather see Zangetsu. I haven't seen that bad ass gothic old man in a long time.

He wont defeat either of them until the war. hes done, hes lost. No powerups this arc, he'll improve during the inevitable training arc between now and the war, like allll the other shiningami are doing....well all the ones not on the fool errand with him.

Ichigo can barely pressure Uli with his mask on and in bankai while Uli is unreleased. and Uli's the 4th Espada. theres no way Zangetsu could give him an instant power-up massive enough to allow him to move forward from here. And if he did it would be horrrible story telling.

gigantor21
April 27, 2007, 12:52 PM
He wont defeat either of them until the war. hes done, hes lost. No powerups this arc, he'll improve during the inevitable training arc between now and the war, like allll the other shiningami are doing....well all the ones not on the fool errand with him.

Ichigo can barely pressure Uli with his mask on and in bankai while Uli is unreleased. and Uli's the 4th Espada. theres no way Zangetsu could give him an instant power-up massive enough to allow him to move forward from here. And if he did it would be horrrible story telling.

Exactly.

Not only that, but Ichigo not getting a power-up means the arc will end sooner, and we'll get to the war faster. There's nothing wrong with that.

Silhouette
April 27, 2007, 05:38 PM
Bankai...fading away. Its clearly shown. More than likely that last frame was just little shreds of reiatsu that formed his bankai outfit floating away.
<hr noshade size="1">-[/hr]


The darkness wasn't fading away but on the opposite...it was engulfing Ichigo. This kinda reminds me when Ichigo got cut by Zaraki, his view turned black and while with the surroundings -including Zaraki- freezing before Zangetsu showed up.
I know Ichigo's bankai turned shikai but this darkness has nothing to do with it.

ANBU4U
April 27, 2007, 06:09 PM
The darkness wasn't fading away but on the opposite...it was engulfing Ichigo. This kinda reminds me when Ichigo got cut by Zaraki, his view turned black and while with the surroundings -including Zaraki- freezing before Zangetsu showed up.
I know Ichigo's bankai turned shikai but this darkness has nothing to do with it.

im telling u, it was just bits of his bankai floating up from like is collar or arm past the "camera."

Lord Rae
April 27, 2007, 07:16 PM
I've got a prediction... Its kind of wide ranging but I'll narrow it down for how I think this arc will conclude (now that Grimmjow is with Orohime I don't think she'll be the one saving the suicide squad...although with Kubo anything is really possible).

Zangetsu has a talk with Ichigo... explaining that he's not like the other Vaizards. Vaizards and arrancars have both sets of powers and 2 avatars of that (ie zangetsu and shirosaki)...however with Ichigo both are one and the same... thats why he's having so much trouble with the mask transform. Ichigo is thinking of the hollow as a separate ability and not embracing it like he used to with zangetsu. Thats why he's had such little improvement since the vaizard training arc. Everyone else has had a powerup this arc (not renji yet ) so I think to not expect a similar change in Ichigo (especially him being in hollow homeland) is silly.

So Ichigo will have a powerup/realization as to how to really use his full power... but he realizes that he can't beat ulqiurra or probably released grimmy either... so he heads to leave but is intercepted by Noitorra.

They fight but Ichigo despite the powerup is weak and sickly... Grimmjow shows up with Inoue... and being the battle loving bastards they both are they talk and let Orohime heal ichigo.

Which one fights him? I dunno... but I think Ichigo will definitely leave to become stronger whether its by force or by choice I dunno. I'd like to think Ichigo would beat Noitora and we find out his number (5 or 7 I dunno)... after that I kind of lose focus. ;p

Crimson_Shadow
April 27, 2007, 09:21 PM
What Grimmjow probably wants Inoue to do is heal Ichigo, because after his previous encounters with Ichigo he probably wants to be the one to kill him off and seeing his reactions around Ulquiorra wouldn't want to let him be the one to kill Ichigo off.

I don't really think they would fight, and probably they'd begin a retreat of some sort once Ishida's fight with Zaer-apollo is over, which as others said before would end with Zaer's release and his defeat of Ishida.

yowatsgood
April 27, 2007, 10:43 PM
How do you suppose Ichigo will regain some balance and/or another powerup to finish off Ulg and possibly Grimm? I can't really see him getting stronger without one of them. More than likely going to see Shirosaki if Ichigo is gonna powerup again, but the shreds of darkness is more of Zangetsu's style.. such as he appeared to Ichigo in the Zaraki fight. I would rather see Zangetsu. I haven't seen that bad ass gothic old man in a long time.

ya i wouldn't mind if Zangetsu came back either. he's ill. one the coolest characters in Bleach. he always has some dramatic entrance. lol he would have a good reason to help ichigo. lets not forget how inexperienced ichigo is. his bankai is condensed and immature, and he's not quite at his peak yet without his vaizard mode. he needs to learn more normally rather than only his vaizard mode i would say, because imagine if another captain became a vaizard. they already have a lot of experience and skill in their "normal" modes, so then they would just have to work more on their vaizard modes. ichigo has multiple things to work on and master.

dreamzsai
April 28, 2007, 12:48 AM
From the way things have been going....Chad dead(?), Rukia dead(?) i think it's a good chance that Ichigo's fight is well over...
But there's also a chance that Grimjaw's errand for Inoue is to heal Ichigo and have them go for a rematch, but i would say it's kinda slim....considering Grimjaw's personality he would only wanna kill Ichigo when he is at his strongest...i dont think Ichigo can even pull his mask out again even if he is healed...
I think we'll see the 8th Espada release....but maybe Ishida and Renji manages to win but gets finished off by Noitora....

djgernade
April 28, 2007, 02:27 AM
I've got a prediction... Its kind of wide ranging but I'll narrow it down for how I think this arc will conclude (now that Grimmjow is with Orohime I don't think she'll be the one saving the suicide squad...although with Kubo anything is really possible).

Zangetsu has a talk with Ichigo... explaining that he's not like the other Vaizards. Vaizards and arrancars have both sets of powers and 2 avatars of that (ie zangetsu and shirosaki)...however with Ichigo both are one and the same... thats why he's having so much trouble with the mask transform. Ichigo is thinking of the hollow as a separate ability and not embracing it like he used to with zangetsu. Thats why he's had such little improvement since the vaizard training arc. Everyone else has had a powerup this arc (not renji yet ) so I think to not expect a similar change in Ichigo (especially him being in hollow homeland) is silly.

So Ichigo will have a powerup/realization as to how to really use his full power... but he realizes that he can't beat ulqiurra or probably released grimmy either... so he heads to leave but is intercepted by Noitorra.

They fight but Ichigo despite the powerup is weak and sickly... Grimmjow shows up with Inoue... and being the battle loving bastards they both are they talk and let Orohime heal ichigo.

Which one fights him? I dunno... but I think Ichigo will definitely leave to become stronger whether its by force or by choice I dunno. I'd like to think Ichigo would beat Noitora and we find out his number (5 or 7 I dunno)... after that I kind of lose focus. ;p

cool thought on the details of the power up. but i dont think that he will be getting any power up. cuz in any, and i mean any story do u ever hear of the good guy getting a power up just for a single guy only to have to fight people even WAY! stronger, UL is the 4th imagine the 1st? and not to mention Aizen. i see ichigo leaving. or being helped. besides ichigo is way past his limit even if he learned something hes to tired to do anything.

naru_naru
April 28, 2007, 02:34 AM
im telling u, it was just bits of his bankai floating up from like is collar or arm past the "camera."

ANBU4U if you look at page 5 of 272 it shows the black things wrap around ichigo. his bankai returns to his shikai (that bit dont make sense as the bankai should return to unreleased form of the zanpaktou). but the images clearly shows the black things slowly wrap around ichigo.

my prediction: dont know if its gonna be a inner world scene or if the hollow ichigo will emerge from the black stuff. as hollow ichigo did say hes gonna be ready the moment ichigo falters to take over. the sroty line is in the air atm lol its completely unknown if the mission will be a success of a complete failure.

short term prediction: ishida and renji fight will be shown and maybe a bit about the inner-world of ichigo at the end if there is anything shocking. imo the grimjaw part will be shown later as some of the fighting dies down.

Lord_Fuzzy
April 28, 2007, 03:12 AM
ichigos zanpaktuo is an always released type even when hes out cold it keeps its shikai shape

ishida will take down zeal but be useless after wards renji will go for rukia nell and the other 2 tag alongs will get ishida, chad , and ichigo out (rukia is close to chad so renjis tag along will grab him)
as they try to leave noirtia is waiting thats when shinji appears to help them out besides someones gotta open there gate out since getting to huedo mundo isnt something shinigami are trained for since they were all looking for a way in, in the first place

Valen123456
April 28, 2007, 03:37 AM
Just a question ... way back before this part during the Soul Society arc when everyone else was dropping like flies with only Ichigo standing ... didnt we all question wheather the series was going to go on ... but it did ... the captains seemed almost god like and yet they are now on the good guys side ... why is there all this talk about everything ending in failure (granted it will require a major deus ex machina)

Koen
April 28, 2007, 07:12 AM
yeah It's what I am thinking too. Inoue will be brought to ichigo to heal him, because ichigo is grimmjaw's ennemy. I don't think ichigo will know of inoue doing this, or maybe he'll get a short glimpse of her. Wonder what she'll say: just leave me?

naru_naru
April 28, 2007, 07:46 AM
ichigos zanpaktuo is an always released type even when hes out cold it keeps its shikai shape



sorry to go a bit off-topic.

thats the odd thing EVERY shinigami zanpaktou returns to unreleased form when the person loses bankai from near-death state. but ichigos zanpaktou goes back to shikai....that is odd (1st time ichigo actually lost bankai from near-death state so 1st time we actually get a change to observe).

Silhouette
April 28, 2007, 08:36 AM
Just a question ... way back before this part during the Soul Society arc when everyone else was dropping like flies with only Ichigo standing ... didnt we all question wheather the series was going to go on ... but it did ... the captains seemed almost god like and yet they are now on the good guys side ... why is there all this talk about everything ending in failure (granted it will require a major deus ex machina)

Because back in SS, the captured ones were imprisoned but treated while in HM they await the death squad once they fall. And Ichigo was a match for the strongest captains once his bankai was unleashed but here he hits Ulquiorra with his strongest attack ever the black GT and while in vizard mode but he doesn't even get him to release. Besides, even though captains are ridiculously strong, two of them were taken down by Aizen in a matter of seconds.


1st time ichigo actually lost bankai from near-death state so 1st time we actually get a change to observe
Umm it happened before when he fought Aizen at the end of SS arc...well not really much of a fight..more like got owned quickly by Aizen. Ichigo was on the verge death state and he was using bankai and the next thing we know...he is mortally wounded and being treated by Orihime.


GJ intention really bug me, I can't for the life of me figure out what he wants from Orihime. He hates Ichigo alright but the whole thing about him trying to get Ichigo treated doesn't make sense to me...I mean GJ was scared shitless when Aizen forced him to his knees after trying to dash out and fight Ichigo so why would he do it now? Plus would GJ throw his life away -considering Aizen will kill him if he disobeys his order- just to fight Ichigo?

I hope GJ is trying to use Orihime's power to activate the Hogyouku and use it on himself for the sake of gaining more power because he got fed up with Aizen especially after the incident with Tousen or may be GJ is working with some Vasto Lordes...may be he will try to steal the Hogyouku, kidnap Orihime and overthrow Aizen. Heck, I will be glad if GJ just wants Orihime to heal the scar on his chest but please don't let the whole thing be for the sake of having the chance to fight Ichigo again.

gigantor21
April 28, 2007, 12:08 PM
Because back in SS, the captured ones were imprisoned but treated while in HM they await the death squad once they fall. And Ichigo was a match for the strongest captains once his bankai was unleashed but here he hits Ulquiorra with his strongest attack ever the black GT and while in vizard mode but he doesn't even get him to release. Besides, even though captains are ridiculously strong, two of them were taken down by Aizen in a matter of seconds.


Pretty much, yeah. The two arcs aren't THAT analogous.

As to Grimmjow using the Hougyoku on himself, I don't think that's possible. We never got any indication that you could be hybridized several times, and that would make the power gap Ichigo and co. have to fill even more ridiculous. But even if that weren't the case, I still think it'd be better if it were a one-shot deal. Most of the remaining Espada haven't had to release yet, after all.

SporkNinja
April 28, 2007, 01:25 PM
I think what Silh was getting at was not to do multiple hybridization but make a more purer form of an arrancar with the full potential of both sides of the spectrum and a better syncopation with the hollow and shinigami elements.

ZSaberLink
April 28, 2007, 10:45 PM
Kubo doesn't seem to like killing characters that appear multiple times. Right now, they either die on the first meeting or die after many encounters. I think Ichigo's down for the count, and I hope he is. If anything, rather than some talk with Zangetsu or Shirosaki I hope he honestly thinks over what happened with himself and refinds his will to fight. With that, once he recovers after Hueco Mundo, he'll change his attitude towards how he approaches his training.

Also, I really think that Ishida's actually going to win this battle, partly because Renji is also there. Ishida seems to be the calm calculating type who doesn't rush into things. If anything I believe he'll definitely force the 8th into his released state. Considering Ichigo could pressure Grimmjow so much and Ishida has always been about a step behind Ichigo, I think he'll beat the 8th somehow. Ishida also probably can tell that basically everybody but he and Renji are down for the count is planning on saving them all and fleeing. Thus, he and Renji will beat the 8th together (probably with Ishida breaking down the room somehow to let Renji release his Bankai).

I'm still kind of confused on what Grimmjow wants with Inoue, but I really hope it's some type of rebellion thing on his part and not "let me fight Ichigo again so heal him".

Alkador
April 28, 2007, 11:03 PM
Hmmm, I love the unpredictability of this arc, but...

What's up with Ishida fighting scientists all the time? First there was Kurotsuchi, and now there's Zaelapollo...well I'm sure he was a few more tricks up his sleeve than the Seele Scheider, as he did have a few of them on him.

And Grimmjow reminded me a hell of a lot like Renji. Tough looking irrational dude at the start, then potentially an ally later on. Maybe?

gigantor21
April 29, 2007, 11:49 AM
I think what Silh was getting at was not to do multiple hybridization but make a more purer form of an arrancar with the full potential of both sides of the spectrum and a better syncopation with the hollow and shinigami elements.

That's actually what I meant, though...sorry for not being clearer on that.

And I think it'd suck for the story, to be frank. It'd be one thing if the complete Hougyoku was capable of purer hybridization, but the last thing we need is a way for the current Espada to get stronger. It's bleak enough for Soul Society as it is.

Holland
April 29, 2007, 02:06 PM
Ichigo's sword was shattered in bankai while he was on the ground then in next frame it shows it reform shikai...so it has to be a healing power-up. I can also see Grimmjaw finding a new way to get stronger using Orihime's power and becomeing the strongest espada and maybe even killing one or two of his teammates...just to prove it...of course Aizen has predicted all of this and when Ichigo and Grimmjaw battle it will open the door to "the king"... just a thought...

...or it could unlock Majin Boo...hmmm

toyin
April 29, 2007, 02:41 PM
Ishida might have problem if he wins Zaero polo because, he will be half assed against any other tough Espada just like SS arc.

Question: Why didn't Renji and ishida feel Ichigo spirit pressure disappearing???

naru_naru
April 29, 2007, 05:10 PM
Ishida might have problem if he wins Zaero polo because, he will be half assed against any other tough Espada just like SS arc.

Question: Why didn't Renji and ishida feel Ichigo spirit pressure disappearing???

most probably they are too busy with their fight and both of them know ichigo can look after himself and if ichigo went down then there isnt much they can actually do about it atm. better to stay focused and get the fight over before going to help rukia and ichigo.

Lohnt
April 29, 2007, 05:27 PM
My personal prediction is the following:
Ishida fights and defeats the released Zaero, I think Zaero is only doing so well because Renji can't release. So that's two chapters.
Then the two of them go on and find Ichigo, Rukia and Chad in order to escape.

Meanwhile, Ichigo's hollow starts taking over, and eventually fully takes over. As they are arguing over what to do. We are introduced to the remaining Arrancar who do not fight quite yet.

Lastly, as they decide to attack further/escape, Ulq/Noitora show up and completely attack them, forcing them to leave. At this point Ichigo's hollow fully takes over and fights whoever is trying to stop them.

They all escape, winter war starts and the mission is to save Ichigo.
That would be great because for once it would allow the side characters to get some development, and maybe Chad would actually win too. Also Hollow Ichigo could meet with Aizen and Inoue.

Koen
April 29, 2007, 06:37 PM
well, guys don't forget there's still nell with ichigo (or did I miss him being takern by ulquiorra?) - he'll heal ichigo if necesarry. I agree with the guys who say zael will be defeated by ishida. I even wonder if the hole made in the wall by ishida, allows renji to do a bankai.

I am looking forward to grimmie his plan, what is he up to. Sneaky awesome guy, n°1 favorite

ANBU4U
April 29, 2007, 11:39 PM
well, guys don't forget there's still nell with ichigo (or did I miss him being takern by ulquiorra?) - he'll heal ichigo if necesarry. I agree with the guys who say zael will be defeated by ishida. I even wonder if the hole made in the wall by ishida, allows renji to do a bankai.

I am looking forward to grimmie his plan, what is he up to. Sneaky awesome guy, n°1 favorite

Shes unconcious when we last see her.

On top of that we never actually see her after Ichigo gets knocked BACK into Las Noches, so its possible he had the presence of mind to drop her safely into the sand before taking a one way trip through another couple of walls.

Plumb
April 29, 2007, 11:42 PM
personally I think what's coming from Ichigo is fairly obvious...

bring on the EXECUTIONER

hichigo is about to own ul's butt, he'll probably get away though.

(that's the signifigance of the reversion from bankai to shikai, I figure the shikai is hichigo's more than ichigo's)

gigantor21
April 30, 2007, 09:13 AM
(that's the signifigance of the reversion from bankai to shikai, I figure the shikai is hichigo's more than ichigo's)

Really? I would think it was the other way around, considering that Ichigo's best move in Bankai is just a copy of what Hollow Ichigo did. Plus, we were introduced to Hollow Ichigo when Ichigo was in Bankai, so I more closely associate Bankai with him.

naru_naru
April 30, 2007, 10:26 AM
Umm it happened before when he fought Aizen at the end of SS arc...well not really much of a fight..more like got owned quickly by Aizen. Ichigo was on the verge death state and he was using bankai and the next thing we know...he is mortally wounded and being treated by Orihime.


if u look back at ch175 ichigo, although he gets owned by aizen, he doesnt lose bankai. i.e: his sword and clothes dont revert back to normal due to critical health. in the recent manga ichigo's bankai reverts back to shikai and his clothes also return to normal. therefore it is actually the 1st time ichigo loses bankai due to being mortally wounded.

and leaves me with the same question why does ichigos bankai revert to shikai when he is severely wounded; whilst other shinigami zanpaktou revert to the sealed state when they are critically wounded whilst in bankai. hope these stuff dont remain plot-holes later on.

Gamabounta
April 30, 2007, 12:48 PM
and leaves me with the same question why does ichigos bankai revert to shikai when he is severely wounded; whilst other shinigami zanpaktou revert to the sealed state when they are critically wounded whilst in bankai. hope these stuff dont remain plot-holes later on.

Because once Ichigo learnt Shikai, he didn't learn how to seal his sword.

ANBU4U
April 30, 2007, 01:25 PM
personally I think what's coming from Ichigo is fairly obvious...

bring on the EXECUTIONER

hichigo is about to own ul's butt, he'll probably get away though.

(that's the signifigance of the reversion from bankai to shikai, I figure the shikai is hichigo's more than ichigo's)


Ogichi and Zangetsu are one in the same, right now Zangetsu should be dominant, even if Ichigo lost, but still. The more power Ichigo draws from Zangetsu the more power in fluence Zangetsu has over him.

SO shikai equal less influence from hollow than bankai. Which was why Ichigo was afraid to use bankai b4 he had his hollow under control.
[hr]

Just a question ... way back before this part during the Soul Society arc when everyone else was dropping like flies with only Ichigo standing ... didnt we all question wheather the series was going to go on ... but it did ... the captains seemed almost god like and yet they are now on the good guys side ... why is there all this talk about everything ending in failure (granted it will require a major deus ex machina)

You have to remember that most people in SS were trying to stop the execution themselves. That being the two strongest Captains, a few Vice-Captains. They ahd people there that could help/hide/heal/ and train them.

What does Ichigo have in HM? Theres no secret training base built years ago by urhara and co. there are no friendly espada that dont want them dead, all they have is Nells puke...and that stuff is all that great apparantly. SS was a long-shot but looking at it retrospectively They wernt fighting all of SS in the slightest. They are fighting all of HM.

O..and on top of that we know elements of the future plot. Like the royal key and the winter war. So we know for pure drama's sake that most of the Espada will survive for the war and that Aizen will use Orihime for w/e he needs to premenately activate the pearl.
[hr]

if u look back at ch175 ichigo, although he gets owned by aizen, he doesnt lose bankai. i.e: his sword and clothes dont revert back to normal due to critical health. in the recent manga ichigo's bankai reverts back to shikai and his clothes also return to normal. therefore it is actually the 1st time ichigo loses bankai due to being mortally wounded.

and leaves me with the same question why does ichigos bankai revert to shikai when he is severely wounded; whilst other shinigami zanpaktou revert to the sealed state when they are critically wounded whilst in bankai. hope these stuff dont remain plot-holes later on.

Because he has a permante shikai type zanpaktou......whcih in itself is a plot hole. Best not to think about it.

Silhouette
April 30, 2007, 01:57 PM
and leaves me with the same question why does ichigos bankai revert to shikai when he is severely wounded; whilst other shinigami zanpaktou revert to the sealed state when they are critically wounded whilst in bankai. hope these stuff dont remain plot-holes later on.
I think Zaraki's zanpakuto is always in constant shikai mode like Ichigo....may be the nature and amount of reiatsu has something to do with it.

crazytrooper
April 30, 2007, 04:44 PM
I think Zaraki's zanpakuto is always in constant shikai mode like Ichigo....may be the nature and amount of reiatsu has something to do with it.

Kenpachi doesnt know the name of his sword, so it's not a shikai. he said it was its true form because he can't release it.

Chill0
April 30, 2007, 06:00 PM
Kenpachi doesnt know the name of his sword, so it's not a shikai. he said it was its true form because he can't release it.

i always wondered about that, doesnt that make it his bankai? fully realeased so equal to bankai, but by not knowing its name its not at full power(Like ichigo and getsuga tenshou) . I dont think kenpachi's bankai will be an ability one just one that gives more power.

for the upcomming chapter i want to see ichigo snap. like the privavon espada said.. become a demon nino. Ogichi will not come out though, but ichigo will become more fierce he will see that how he goes know is half assed and if he wants to progress further he must feel the urge to cut everyone down in his path (with the help of ogichi offc :P ) . ichigo and ogichi need to make a pact only that can make them stronger. becoming stronger seems the reason for this whole arc so bring it on \:D/

Dark soul within
April 30, 2007, 06:07 PM
:headscratch My predictions for the next chapter are that Zaera polo Grantz will be forced to release his zanpakuto because of Ishida's onslaught and will fight both Ishida and Renji. After a while Ishida will realise that to succeed he needs renji to achieve bankai & will find a way to allow that to happen. We will probably also see Aizen's reaction to Grimmjow's actions & will also find out Grimmjow's intentions....although this may not all happen in one chapter. :p

:offtopic Briefly regarding the whole Kenpachi issue :kenya - because of his immense spirit presure his zanpakuto is always in it's released state. Both he and Ichigo have zanpakuto's that are described as full-time released form type because once released they remain in their released state and cannot return to their sealed state.

blackenedeath
April 30, 2007, 06:48 PM
well more with the off topic issue wtih kenpachi
I could be wrong about this...
but i remember in the anime after kenpachi ichigo fight, kenpachi started to ask his zanpakto what its name was, but i didnt start reading the manga til right after SS arc so i might be wrong. and also i think i recall yoruichi or uruhara stating that ichigo's was a permanent shikai zanpakto when ichigo released it. But wouldnt kenpachi asking his swords name etc. just mean that it has yet to be released?

Lord Rae
April 30, 2007, 07:19 PM
:headscratch My predictions for the next chapter are that Zaera polo Grantz will be forced to release his zanpakuto because of Ishida's onslaught and will fight both Ishida and Renji. After a while Ishida will realise that to succeed he needs renji to achieve bankai & will find a way to allow that to happen. We will probably also see Aizen's reaction to Grimmjow's actions & will also find out Grimmjow's intentions....although this may not all happen in one chapter. :p

:offtopic Briefly regarding the whole Kenpachi issue :kenya - because of his immense spirit presure his zanpakuto is always in it's released state. Both he and Ichigo have zanpakuto's that are described as full-time released form type because once released they remain in their released state and cannot return to their sealed state.

Sorry to keep the off topic thing going but really I thought the whole Kenpachi thing was described by him as that way however if you remember almost immediately Zangetsu corrected that line of thinking (albeit to Ichigo and Ichigo didn't pass it on)...

sahugani
April 30, 2007, 07:31 PM
next week i think (or at least desprately hope) that Ishida will end up pushing Zaerapollo to release. You must keep in mind how slowly the storyline in Bleach tends to move, especially in battle chapters, so i don't really expect to see much more beyord that in terms of Ishada/Renji's fight. we may also get a bit of a switch to either Orihime/Grimmjow (in which we learn a bit about what he wants from her) or to Ichigo (as he starts conversing with whoever will grant him power this time)

also, about Zaraki, i'll try to shed some light on this. Zaraki's sword is not in shikai. since Zaraki believes his sword is nameless, then he doesn't believe that his sword has any higher forms. From that logic, he believes this is the limit his sword can reach and calls it its true and fully released form. don't know how we'll i explained that, but it makes perfect sense in my head

Tomodachi69
April 30, 2007, 08:23 PM
next week i think (or at least desprately hope) that Ishida will end up pushing Zaerapollo to release. You must keep in mind how slowly the storyline in Bleach tends to move, especially in battle chapters, so i don't really expect to see much more beyord that in terms of Ishada/Renji's fight. we may also get a bit of a switch to either Orihime/Grimmjow (in which we learn a bit about what he wants from her) or to Ichigo (as he starts conversing with whoever will grant him power this time)

also, about Zaraki, i'll try to shed some light on this. Zaraki's sword is not in shikai. since Zaraki believes his sword is nameless, then he doesn't believe that his sword has any higher forms. From that logic, he believes this is the limit his sword can reach and calls it its true and fully released form. don't know how we'll i explained that, but it makes perfect sense in my head

Yea, that's basically my chapter prediction, as well XD

As for Zaraki..

If I recall correctly, the SOULS databook classifies Zaraki's zanpakutou as always being in shikai, like Ichigo's.

Splat
April 30, 2007, 08:29 PM
I'd like to see a little more light shed on all the things going on at the moment in the next chapter, i.e orihime/grimjaw convo, ishida/renji/zaela battle, and ichigo. As for what will actually happen, there are so many godd ideas out there right now that i really can't decide, which actually pleases me, it makes the chapter more exciting.

On the zaraki kenpachi issue, i believe he told ichigo that it was his swords hghest/best stage, he never once mentioned shikai, also just because it is in it's fully released form doesn't mean that it is shikai. remember when ichigo first gained his shinigami powers, he had a huge zanpakuto because of his huge reiatsu. it only went to being a constant shikai type after he learned its name, zaraki does not know his swords name, so can't have shikai. However he does have the longest sword of any of the other captains that i have seen, which shows his high reiatsu. This all suggest to me that zarakis zanpakuto is most like ichigos from when he originally got his powers.

ANBU4U
April 30, 2007, 10:00 PM
Kenpachi doesnt know the name of his sword, so it's not a shikai. he said it was its true form because he can't release it.

Ichigo and Kenpachi both have constantly released swords. As per the Bleach Official Character Book SOULs; page 258.

No arguing with that source.

Gamabounta
April 30, 2007, 10:05 PM
Ichigo and Kenpachi both have constantly released swords. As per the Bleach Official Character Book SOULs; page 258.

No arguing with that source.

Well I didn't read this book, but Kenpachi doesn't know the name of his Zanpakuto. Therefor he can't call it and use Shikai.
In order to achieve Ban Kai and/or simply improve, one need to talk with his Zanpakuto (ie: Ichigo training 3 days with Zangetsu during SS, everyone talking to their Zanpakuto during the preparation of the war, earlier, etc).

So Kenpachy is a permanent "un-released" mode, until he learn the name.

Tomodachi69
May 01, 2007, 01:37 AM
Well I didn't read this book, but Kenpachi doesn't know the name of his Zanpakuto. Therefor he can't call it and use Shikai.
In order to achieve Ban Kai and/or simply improve, one need to talk with his Zanpakuto (ie: Ichigo training 3 days with Zangetsu during SS, everyone talking to their Zanpakuto during the preparation of the war, earlier, etc).

So Kenpachy is a permanent "un-released" mode, until he learn the name.

The Official character data book lists Zaraki's zanpakutou as a constant-Shikai type, like Ichigo's is.

Need there be anymore discussion about whether it is or isn't a shikai?
"But Zaraki --"
NO.
Kubo has written that it is a constant-Shikai zanpaku. And so it is, period.

... What thread is this, again? XD
Oh yea, predictions.

I predict that we'll have a chapter despite Golden Week. ^^-b

Silhouette
May 01, 2007, 04:46 AM
Kenpachi doesnt know the name of his sword, so it's not a shikai. he said it was its true form because he can't release it.


Well I didn't read this book, but Kenpachi doesn't know the name of his Zanpakuto. Therefor he can't call it and use Shikai.
In order to achieve Ban Kai and/or simply improve, one need to talk with his Zanpakuto (ie: Ichigo training 3 days with Zangetsu during SS, everyone talking to their Zanpakuto during the preparation of the war, earlier, etc).

So Kenpachy is a permanent "un-released" mode, until he learn the name.

Besides the data book, when Ichigo first acquired his Zanpakuto he didn't know it's name and yet it was a shikai. So the ability of going shikai without knowing a zanpakuto name happened in Ichigo's case and this isn't the only interesting thing but him and Zaraki are always in Shikai mode...the only two exceptiong in aquiring and keeping their shikais in constant state....again I don't know why but may be because they have insanely huge reiatsu

crazytrooper
May 01, 2007, 07:07 AM
Besides the data book, when Ichigo first acquired his Zanpakuto he didn't know it's name and yet it was a shikai. So the ability of going shikai without knowing a zanpakuto name happened in Ichigo's case and this isn't the only interesting thing but him and Zaraki are always in Shikai mode...the only two exceptiong in aquiring and keeping their shikais in constant state....again I don't know why but may be because they have insanely huge reiatsu

Sorry but when ichigo got his shikai he knew the name of his sword... check Chapter 67

Dark soul within
May 01, 2007, 10:39 AM
Right, shall we get back onto topic now. As well as my earlier predictions I think that if we do see Grimmjow take Inoue on his errand then one of the other Espada will try interfere...whether or not this would result in a small fight or just Grimmjow ignoring them & going about his way I'm not sure. If he is uninterrupted in his errand then fair enough.

SilverStrawberry
May 01, 2007, 12:47 PM
I'm a bit surprized that in your predictions none of you guys think that there will be any help coming.. I mean.. I dunno, maybe it's just my wishful thinking, but I do think it could be possible (would be cool anyways) if someone actually came to help them out. It could be just to help them escape when they're on the brink of all being killed, or actually changing the course of things.
I think it it could be either: Urahara & Yoroichi & Isshin / Byakuya & possibly Zaraki / Vaizards -they could actually figure out that it's better to attack Aizen in Hueco Mundo instead of waiting until his Hougyoku and other preparations are ready (he said he needs to gather all Vasto Lorde and complete the Espada). Also by fighting Aizen in his estate the SS / Karakura aren't being destroyed. so if they just got more people involved, they could possibly succeed.. although I doubt that they will now cos it would be too fast and bad for the story.. but I'm saying that I think someone will come to help them out..

Fortisdiablos
May 01, 2007, 01:11 PM
I'm a bit surprized that in your predictions none of you guys think that there will be any help coming.. I mean.. I dunno, maybe it's just my wishful thinking, but I do think it could be possible (would be cool anyways) if someone actually came to help them out. It could be just to help them escape when they're on the brink of all being killed, or actually changing the course of things.
I think it it could be either: Urahara & Yoroichi & Isshin / Byakuya & possibly Zaraki / Vaizards -they could actually figure out that it's better to attack Aizen in Hueco Mundo instead of waiting until his Hougyoku and other preparations are ready (he said he needs to gather all Vasto Lorde and complete the Espada). Also by fighting Aizen in his estate the SS / Karakura aren't being destroyed. so if they just got more people involved, they could possibly succeed.. although I doubt that they will now cos it would be too fast and bad for the story.. but I'm saying that I think someone will come to help them out..

If someone does happen to come to help them, I think it will be a/several vaizards, and it will be help escaping and nothing more. Lesson learned.

gigantor21
May 01, 2007, 02:35 PM
If someone does happen to come to help them, I think it will be a/several vaizards, and it will be help escaping and nothing more. Lesson learned.

Exactly. I don't think Urahara's an option, because he's "going on with his own work" and I doubt he would've finished it in less than a day. Besides that, I think we need someone at the Espada's level to help out, and the Vaizards have barely been a part of the story at all. It's time they start doing shit, since they'll be helping Soul Society in the War whether they want to or not.

Dark soul within
May 01, 2007, 05:26 PM
It would be cool to see some, if not all of the vaizard show up and either help them to escape or to turn the tides, but if it does happen it won't be for a while. I can't see any shinigami turn up unless soul society actually decides to intervene.

blackenedeath
May 01, 2007, 05:36 PM
Most of SS seems useless right now, only a few captians seem to stand a chance against the espada, but if any body is going to rescue it would most likely be the vaizards

Silhouette
May 01, 2007, 06:24 PM
Sorry but when ichigo got his shikai he knew the name of his sword... check Chapter 67

You're right..my bad



Most of SS seems useless right now, only a few captians seem to stand a chance against the espada, but if any body is going to rescue it would most likely be the vaizards

That huge reiatsu Noitora was talking about, hopefully it's Shinji's. May be Shiji pictured him self in some childish fantasy as the knight in shining armour who saves Orihime and wins her heart over and so he came....she's his 1st crush (or so he claims) after all :P. But even if Shinji comes, will one vizard be enough to rescue the rescuers? (I assumes one vizard only because Noitora sensed only one huge reiatsu)

SilverStrawberry
May 01, 2007, 06:33 PM
hmm I guess I agree with you guys that if someone was gonna help them it would rather be to get them out of there (cos actually as the things are going they are not likely to even be able to escape on their own..). And as well that it would rather not be Urahara, cos he helped them out so many times already + he's not likely to be so reckless... and I think (or maybe hope so) it could be the Vaizards.. cos we haven't seen them fighting any enemies except that little bit when Shinji kicked Grimjaww's butt.. :P and they didn't show what are the Vaizards doing at that time.. I mean, are they still just sitting around doing nothin? and well.. Shinji possibly would wanna help Inoue as well :P and actually especially in a situation when SS doesn't want to intervene, the Vaizards are more likely to.. cos they probably wouldn't want to have anything to do with it if the SS was involved.. and here they would be helping their friends -Ichigo, Inoue, that were abandoned by the SS..

ANBU4U
May 01, 2007, 09:27 PM
I'm a bit surprized that in your predictions none of you guys think that there will be any help coming.. I mean.. I dunno, maybe it's just my wishful thinking, but I do think it could be possible (would be cool anyways) if someone actually came to help them out. It could be just to help them escape when they're on the brink of all being killed, or actually changing the course of things.
I think it it could be either: Urahara & Yoroichi & Isshin / Byakuya & possibly Zaraki / Vaizards -they could actually figure out that it's better to attack Aizen in Hueco Mundo instead of waiting until his Hougyoku and other preparations are ready (he said he needs to gather all Vasto Lorde and complete the Espada). Also by fighting Aizen in his estate the SS / Karakura aren't being destroyed. so if they just got more people involved, they could possibly succeed.. although I doubt that they will now cos it would be too fast and bad for the story.. but I'm saying that I think someone will come to help them out..

A full scale attack by SS into unknown territory? Against someone as duplicitous as Aizen? No way.

Theres just no way Yammato risks a full scale attack on anything but neutral territory. A preemptive strike seeeems prudent...but in this case there are just too many unknows. Aizen has way too much of advantage, he knows all there is to know about SS and SS knows next to nothing of what he's got going on in HM, not even an accurate timeline on when the hougyoku will awaken. Best to prepare his forces and do his best to alter there make-up enough to make them relatively unknown to Aizen than risk resources attacking his stronghold with techniques/equipment that aizen has likely prepared for.

He wont even send a small rescue team, Anyone capable of suceeding with only a hand full of shiningami is too valuable to risk sending in before the big war. Their potential loss isnt really woth whos trapped there. Obviously Yammato would love to have Ichigo around, and he shoulllld be regretfull of Renji's loss as well, both of them being the most qualified to serve as defacto captains during the war (as far as he knows) but Rukia and the others are likely statistical no counts to him....It would take 4 or more Captain class shiningami to save 2 captain class shiningami and (as far a yammato's concerned) some extras.....just not enough of a payoff given the risk. Cold maybe...but honestly, the right move.

The Vizard MAY come......but from what I've seen they seem to want Ichigo in order boost their ranks a bit for the upcoming conflict...not because he's all that epicly stronger than their other members....which is to say they dont seem to be relying on him persay, but rather feel they'd be better off with him than without. If thats true they would avoid a rescue attempt for the sames reasons as SS PLUS 1, that being as far as we know....they're an unknown to aizen and the arrancar...giving them a bit of an edge come go time, if they go showing off in HM then they lose that advantage (assuming Ichigo hasnt already completely lost it 4 them), and I'm not sure Ichigo's worth that to them.

The only real options I see for rescue are Urahara, Isshin, Yourichi, and Ishida's dad. Ichigo and Co. (Ichigo in particular) ARE important to them for reasons I believe have yet to be revealed. Not to mention the obvious father/son and master/apprentice connections that tie those groups together...in fact they may as well be the same group at this point given that the familial and training ties are so close (especially with Ishida and Ichigo)

I dont mention Ichigo's other friends simply because...I dont see how they could go from not being able to beat a simple hollow to fighting espada in less than 5 days (not alot of time has passed since Ichigo and Co left for HM....I doubt its been a day.)

It's possible that Orihime could pull something off. Like rejecting that they ever came to help her......but that opens up a huuuuuge Deux e machina for the rest of the series. That tite may well want to avoid. Unless of course he kills Orihime, which I wouldnt put past him. She and Ichigo have NO chemistry, very few male'female characters in bleach do...with the exception of Yourichi/Urahara and.....vaugely, in a comrade in arms that could be more kinda way....Ichigo/Rukia. But even thats vauge...the fact of the matter is Ichigo's shown no HINT of intrest on any level other than a friend, and no real connection with her on any level. Orihime's just not his type. If she was she should have been able to cheer him up...period.

Dimma
May 02, 2007, 12:27 AM
I don't think anyone is going to come and save them. I kinda think that Ichigo isn't leaving HM anytime soon. It might be cool if he loses to his hollow for a while and becomes part of Aizen's forces. Perhaps the first one to have a completed Hoguyoku (spelling) used on him. I could see all kinds of turmoil that way when they fight against him in the war. It wouldn't even have to be Ichigo. Any six of them would be interesting choices to hollowize. Perhaps to save Rukia's life she'll be hollowized. muhaha that'd be some interesting stuff, and it'd keep her in the manga since her powers aren't keeping up.

All in all at the end of this arc, they'll keep Ichigo and Orihime separated in order to prolong the unresolved love plot. But I'm probably wrong so woohoo.

Pepius
May 02, 2007, 07:29 AM
Ichigo Father, Ishida Father, Yoruichi and maybe Vaizard or two.

Also i think Nell will help Ichigo heal but i tihnk we will see first litle Ichigo-Ogichi-Zangetsu talk.
Grimjaw will have something with using Orihime and Hogyuku to get more power probably.

But thats just me at one point they need to introduce fathers history and vaizards in whole complete story for winters war.

naru_naru
May 02, 2007, 12:11 PM
i agree with, and echo, ANBU4U's post on the reasons why rescue team wont get any help; yet at the same time i just dont see aizen allowing them to live after what they have seen.

if the rescue team do get back alive; Urahara & co, SS and the Vizards will want to know what the rescue team saw and every detail of the event to help them plan for the up-coming battle. although aizen does not seem fussed by all the events (maybe he sees it as an extermination exercise, those who die are not fit to be part of his grand scheme) even he wont want valuable information on the battle abilities of his Espada being passed to the above groups.

ANBU4U
May 02, 2007, 01:05 PM
i agree with, and echo, ANBU4U's post on the reasons why rescue team wont get any help; yet at the same time i just dont see aizen allowing them to live after what they have seen.

if the rescue team do get back alive; Urahara & co, SS and the Vizards will want to know what the rescue team saw and every detail of the event to help them plan for the up-coming battle. although aizen does not seem fussed by all the events (maybe he sees it as an extermination exercise, those who die are not fit to be part of his grand scheme) even he wont want valuable information on the battle abilities of his Espada being passed to the above groups.

True, nothings making sense.

Aizen shouldnt want ANY information getting back to SS. And clearly he's at least aware of the possibility that Ichigo could one day become a viable threat to him. Given the progress he's shown in a few months....and what they've all seen of the inner workings of HM it just makes no sense why someone as calculating as Aizen..or Uli, would give Ichigo and Co. the option of escape without rescue. And clearly....should Aizen want them all dead he could use the upper escheleon of the Espada to do it very quickly.

The only reason I can see for him to even allow them to fight such weak opponents and progress as far as they have (We know he expected them to progress past the privion espada quickly) is that he's curious as the to calliber of his enemy....he probably (like uli) has estimations of where they should be...and simply wants to confirm them. Still after they've suited those needs why keep them alive? Unless he wants to test the full power of the pearl on some shiningami b4 he attempts it on himself, Tousen, and Gin... that I could see.

Hmmmmm....................it all comes down to GJ and Orihime, I wonder what they're up to. Its possible.....very possible, that GJ is setting up Orihime on Aizens orders. Perhaps Aizen sent Uli away to face ichigo, knowing the Ho's would take that opportunity to act out their jealousy. Then he sent in GJ knowing it would foster a bit of trust between the two? Lets face it Uli isnt exactly the type to just abandon his post.

Then theres, Urahara...........he's as cold and calculating as Shinji and Yammato....and on top of that he has greater claim to Ichigo's loyalty than either of them, w/e his goals are I'm certain Ichigo's power is essential to its achieval unlike the mere role-playing position he'd have in the other organizations.....so no way Urahara would send Ichigo in if he didnt think he could get him back out, he's just too valuable to him.....regardless of how guilt he MAY feel about his role in Orihime's abduction. Any way you look at it the only group with enough at stake to risk a rescue is Urahara's. But in light of him even risking one of his most valuable assest on a mission he probably knew was fool hardy he HAS to expect a great return, greater than a tid-bit of information....perhaps he's expecting Aizen to try a little experiment hmmm? But how would he manage to retrive his new improved assets??? Some new invention that Aizen isnt aware of im sure.

So here are my predictions:

Orihime suckered
Renji and or Rukia improved
Ichigo manages to somehow...delay the same thing from happening to anyone else.
Urahara bail's his new toys out in the nick-of-time.

Ichigo and Co, improve their skills, kill a few high ranking Arrancar, and bring back a bit of intelligence. All in all the only scenario I can imagine that was worth the risk of sending Ichigo.

Maybe.....just maybe, as an ultra super bonus Urahara adds the rescue of Orihime to that list, but I dont think he really expects it.

Remember, the only reason he even risked sending Ichigo to SS was because he knew damn well what was inside Rukia...and probably suspected someone was after it...he MAY even have known it was Aizen given the things Shinji revealed to Ichigo. I dont doubt he has a similar alterior motive to send Ichigo to HM, otherwise it's just not worth the risk.....and he doesnt feel all THAT guilty about orihime.

jinbus
May 02, 2007, 01:46 PM
Prediction: Grimmjow will be reunited with his little sister Neru. Ichigo will awake from his coma and then Grimmjow will punch his in the stomach thus rendering him unconscious... yet again. Grimmjow will then fulfill his part of the Soul Society paralell by being joined with Renji.

Dark soul within
May 02, 2007, 04:21 PM
Prediction: Grimmjow will be reunited with his little sister Neru. Ichigo will awake from his coma and then Grimmjow will punch his in the stomach thus rendering him unconscious... yet again. Grimmjow will then fulfill his part of the Soul Society paralell by being joined with Renji.

I don't remember there being a little sister for grimmjow?! What chapter's that from?

gigantor21
May 02, 2007, 05:19 PM
^Nothing like that has been brought up yet. I think it's just speculation.

Fortisdiablos
May 02, 2007, 07:48 PM
That might be interesting, though how exactly does the sibling thing work for arrancars? The Zaer and Il Forte for example...what makes them brothers? Aren't menos compilations of lots and lots of hollows?

gigantor21
May 02, 2007, 08:01 PM
That might be interesting, though how exactly does the sibling thing work for arrancars? The Zaer and Il Forte for example...what makes them brothers? Aren't menos compilations of lots and lots of hollows?

I actually forgot about that, to be honest. It doesn't make sense to even have siblings when you consider that, let alone know who they are. I doubt Kubo will explain it, though, leaving yet another generally unimportant plot hole lying around in the story.

yanniv
May 02, 2007, 11:09 PM
Perhaps in Menos it's the strongest soul that turns out to be the main person when Arrancar'd. Maybe Zael and Il were both brothers at one time in the real world, became hollows for whatever reason, merged with other hollows to form a menos class, and since they were the strongest of those souls, he turned out to be the face you and I see in Bleach.

Maybe...

lexx
May 03, 2007, 12:40 PM
I'm thinking that another trip to inner world is due for Ichigo. It's about time for his horse to kick him off - where the hell is the base killing instinct that he needs to keep on top? Sure, he showed enthusiasm to fighting with Grimjow, but if his core personality is supposed to resemble Zaraki Kenpachi Ichigo's got far to go.

platypus
May 03, 2007, 02:11 PM
I bet that menos work like this

Gillians are a powerful hollow that starts eating & merging with other hollows to gain spiritual power (remember, hollows eat souls for power).

Ajuucas are powerful hollows that don't actually merge with anyone, they JUST eat others. They retain their regular hollow forms (more or less) just become quite powerful.

Vastarodes are likely formed when beings of particular spiritual power and control (shinigami, quincies, etc) become hollows, allowing almost an instant rank of captain level power.

If this were the case, you could be brothers with any of them. Il Forte could have been a hollow brother to Zael, and at one point, Il Forte merged with others to become a gillian. Zael, who was smarter, didn't need to merge to gain power. So when they became arrancars, Il Forte reverted to his human form, though his power was limited to that of a gillian, i.e. strong, but primitive. Zael likely has very little more reiatsu, but due to his higher intelligence, can control it to be much deadlier than Il Forte.

ANBU4U
May 03, 2007, 02:21 PM
I'm thinking that another trip to inner world is due for Ichigo. It's about time for his horse to kick him off - where the hell is the base killing instinct that he needs to keep on top? Sure, he showed enthusiasm to fighting with Grimjow, but if his core personality is supposed to resemble Zaraki Kenpachi Ichigo's got far to go.


Seriously, I have yet to detect ANY change whats-so-ever in his fighting style or attitude towards fighting. He tried to dodge a fight with Uli necause he "wasnt his enemy" what kinda of crap was that? The only hint that he was changing his atitude was when he refused to honor that kicking idiot privion espada with his bankai....which I was very proud of him for. But noooooo, he goes and uses it anyway. Ikkaku would never have gone Bankai unless he was half dead already.

His style of fighting is almost insulting to Zangetsu, he pulls out all of his power on nobodies. I swear he'll use Bankai on some generic hollow sooner or later. but w/e...all im saying is he should at least attempt fighting opponents with all he's got in Shikai b4 going bankai.....its like.......putting salt and pepper on a really nice meal without tasting it first, just plain rude to the chef.

Did Urahara bring out his bankai when fighting Yammi? NO. Ichigo did it without even attempting to fight in shikai, just lame.

O as for the whole horse thing..I doubt it. He JUST got the horse position in universe time wise. Its been like...5 months since he tamed his hollow, and three fights. One was a draw....the other he won, this one he lost. And in the one loss he pressumably used the bulk if not all of his hollows power....so why would the hollow take over? Its like Zangetsu taking over....as long as ichigo fights to his fullest and still losses then Zangetsu looses too. Why would he take over and think he'd do better?

Ogichi will only take over when Ichigo losses by doing something...stupid. Like not really wanting to fight, or losing control of his banki/hollow powers. He wont take over if Ichigo's beaten by a blatantly superior opponent. otherwise why would it not try and take over after Ichigo gets spanked in training with someone like Shinji, Hyori or Urahara. No in order for the hollow to rise ichigo has to do more than just lose, he has to lose shamefully. This wasnt shamefull, he was just outmatched.

Dark soul within
May 03, 2007, 02:57 PM
Ichigo does have a habit of jumping straight into releasing his bankai...but that could just be because he wants to get the fight over with as soon as possible.

I really don't think Ogichi will try take over after ichigo being defeated like that, Ichigo was outmatched and I don't see how Ogichi would fair any better. It is more likely the old man zangetsu will talk to Ichigo and reveal some new way in which ichigo can use his power.

ANBU4U
May 03, 2007, 03:04 PM
Ichigo does have a habit of jumping straight into releasing his bankai...but that could just be because he wants to get the fight over with as soon as possible.


Which has been established as his problem hasnt it? Our was his own soul lying to him?

Lord Rae
May 03, 2007, 09:45 PM
Its because he has absolutely no style when he fights most of the time...time and time again it seems like unless he's using his bankai he's charging straight at his opponent sword raised above his head. He shows none of the skills or technique most people do...

Everytime we've seen shirosaki fight he shows us something new... Twirling shikai with the wrap to attack at range, black getsuga, getsuga at point blank range...

Ichigo has never once shown anything even close to that level of creativity or skill with the blade.

He really is a one trick pony. He has getsuga but can't really do anything with it as we've seen and his bankai speed was only really impressive in the first fight he used it...since then its been a sure sign he's about to get owned.

naru_naru
May 03, 2007, 11:37 PM
Seriously, I have yet to detect ANY change whats-so-ever in his fighting style or attitude towards fighting. He tried to dodge a fight with Uli necause he "wasnt his enemy" what kinda of crap was that? The only hint that he was changing his atitude was when he refused to honor that kicking idiot privion espada with his bankai....which I was very proud of him for. But noooooo, he goes and uses it anyway. Ikkaku would never have gone Bankai unless he was half dead already.

true lol this bankai reliance is kinda weird for ichigo, use it if u got to, like against byakuya. the confidence he showed during saving rukia and the byakuya fight has completely disappeared. ichigo freaking stopped that 1000000 in 1 zanpaktou while zangetsu was in shikai. and then he broke the beam like it was nothing even though it has a defence capability of dfending against 1000000 zanpaktous. he beat kenpachi in shikai........damn wheres that ichigo gone?



Did Urahara bring out his bankai when fighting Yammi? NO. Ichigo did it without even attempting to fight in shikai, just lame.

i think ichigo went bankai because of both yammi and Uli reiatsu combined would be something frightening as chigo isnt good at telling reiatsu. also kubo used ichigo to show how far superiour arrancer were compared to a shinigami in bankai.

after the SS arc i expected ichigo to be more confident in using zangetsu, he just achieved bankai thats supposed to be the highest sync level a shinigami can achieve with his zanpaktou. instead its like he dosnt know how to fight ever since the byakuya fight.

there will be another hollow ichigo and ichigo confrontation there has to be; as to the conditions that will instigate it will be up to kubo. however if we look back every time ichigo has some moment of weakness zangetsu would pop up and give him some advice and help him in the battle. hollow ichigo isnt interested in that; when ichigo is in those situations hollow ichigo wants to take over and win the fight; not to help ichigo but because it loves fighting and because it needs ichigo alive. the uli fight wasnt one of those situations where ichigo was suffering a moment of weakness so if the hollow does pop up now it wont make sense.

ShinobiWrath
May 04, 2007, 03:53 AM
I think Despite the astonishing control Ichigo has over his hollow form he still finds himself slipping as he's aware Shirosaki could take over whenever he loses his head. Ichigo was definately reluctant to use his Banaki in the fight when it was obvious he was at a great disadvantage when he came to Hueco Mundo in the first place. I'm not sure Ichigo originally intended to use his Bankai on Uluquiorra seeing as how he thought His hollow and bankai combined would get him where he needed to be. I for one think it is Hueco Mundo that gives Ichigo the disadvantage whereas the Arrancar thrive upon Hueco Mundo which gives them a streaking advantage. I for one say Old Man Zangetsu is about to pay Ichigo a visit to tell him about the limits of his abilities and how he can improve.

ANBU4U
May 04, 2007, 01:37 PM
Its because he has absolutely no style when he fights most of the time...time and time again it seems like unless he's using his bankai he's charging straight at his opponent sword raised above his head. He shows none of the skills or technique most people do...

Everytime we've seen shirosaki fight he shows us something new... Twirling shikai with the wrap to attack at range, black getsuga, getsuga at point blank range...

Ichigo has never once shown anything even close to that level of creativity or skill with the blade.

He really is a one trick pony. He has getsuga but can't really do anything with it as we've seen and his bankai speed was only really impressive in the first fight he used it...since then its been a sure sign he's about to get owned.

Its true that he copies Ogichi. But his swordsmanships probably superb, if unimaginative.

We've seen him doing intensive weapons training with his Zanpaktou and Urahara. Then fight on par with Renji and Byakuya. In the latter case he was unable to overpower his opponent outright and still fought on equal footing swordsmanship wise. Byakuya even complimented his complete mastery of shunpo which we know the vast majority of Shiningami cant preform. Even Ikkaku noted that he was more than just power and instinct, but that he had quite a bit of skill as well. And that was when he was starting out in SS.

So yea, its not that Ichigo's not a good swordsman, he is. He's top teir....but hes just...by the book, unimaginative, dull, predictable. He needs to enjoy his fights, to stop thinking of them as a chore. That will improve his fighting alot.

But yea...I mean he's a very skilled swordsman, he's not just overpowering his way to every victory. But his current style of swordsmanship can only take him so far. He needs to mix it up.....or just get obcenely more powerfull. As he is now he can only beat opponents weaker than him or equal...he'd never over achieve without some major luck.
[hr]

true lol this bankai reliance is kinda weird for ichigo, use it if u got to, like against byakuya. the confidence he showed during saving rukia and the byakuya fight has completely disappeared. ichigo freaking stopped that 1000000 in 1 zanpaktou while zangetsu was in shikai. and then he broke the beam like it was nothing even though it has a defence capability of dfending against 1000000 zanpaktous. he beat kenpachi in shikai........damn wheres that ichigo gone?


Seriously, I want cocky Ichigo back. The Ichigo that tried to beat Byakuya's Bankai in Shikai. Did he fail? YES, but it was important he tried. Show your own soul some respect.
[hr]

I think Despite the astonishing control Ichigo has over his hollow form he still finds himself slipping as he's aware Shirosaki could take over whenever he loses his head. Ichigo was definately reluctant to use his Banaki in the fight when it was obvious he was at a great disadvantage when he came to Hueco Mundo in the first place. I'm not sure Ichigo originally intended to use his Bankai on Uluquiorra seeing as how he thought His hollow and bankai combined would get him where he needed to be. I for one think it is Hueco Mundo that gives Ichigo the disadvantage whereas the Arrancar thrive upon Hueco Mundo which gives them a streaking advantage. I for one say Old Man Zangetsu is about to pay Ichigo a visit to tell him about the limits of his abilities and how he can improve.


No. He has him under complete control. Even if he hasnt masterd that side of HIS power yet.

The reason Ichigo didnt use Bankai when he first arrived wasnt because he was scared of it. It was because (and rightly so) he decided he couldnt whip out his bankai on every tom, dick, or harry, and still expect to make it all the way to Aizen. Shiningami cant use bankai forever u know and he's far from masterd his.

ShinobiWrath
May 04, 2007, 05:51 PM
I'm sure Ichigo knew that even with his Bankai he couldn't beat Aizen and especially the epsada, This mission was strictly to recover Orihime from the arrancars' grasp. Tite already detailed his loss during his fight with GrimmJow the second time. At least I think.

ANBU4U
May 04, 2007, 10:33 PM
I'm sure Ichigo knew that even with his Bankai he couldn't beat Aizen and especially the epsada, This mission was strictly to recover Orihime from the arrancars' grasp. Tite already detailed his loss during his fight with GrimmJow the second time. At least I think.

Nah. That idiot was ready to fight all of HM when he showed up, I refuse to believe he's was wise enough to to try a discret inandout rescue misson.

Koen
May 05, 2007, 10:07 AM
I'm sure Ichigo knew that even with his Bankai he couldn't beat Aizen and especially the epsada, This mission was strictly to recover Orihime from the arrancars' grasp. Tite already detailed his loss during his fight with GrimmJow the second time. At least I think.

If aizen is that strong, why can't ichigo and vaizards and shinigami be strong. Have you seen the bankai yet of isshin, of urahara, of soi fong, of ukitate (ukitake), of that nanao capitain? Well I didn't...

It as his hollow side said: how many times did ichigo do to weild bankai? In pretty no much time, he even lost contact with zangetsu in the fight with byakuya. So, I think ichigo can be lots of stronger with zangetsu. He's fast in his bankai, and I would ask myself if he hadn't the problems with his hollow side what zangetsu would have learned him

Fairy Vearth
May 05, 2007, 11:05 AM
koenosaki is right

ichigo is really fast and he hasnt learned all of bankai technics yet

there will be sth stronger than getsuga tenshou and i think zangetsu will appear to give ichigo the power


(if nobody has noticed: ichigo havent released his reiatsu because zangetsu isnt with him)

ANBU4U
May 05, 2007, 11:19 AM
koenosaki is right

ichigo is really fast and he hasnt learned all of bankai technics yet

there will be sth stronger than getsuga tenshou and i think zangetsu will appear to give ichigo the power


(if nobody has noticed: ichigo havent released his reiatsu because zangetsu isnt with him)

What? Yes he has.

richter
May 05, 2007, 11:29 AM
Why Aizen let's them walk around HM ?
I think he interest something in Ichigo that why he stop GJ but send Uli.
However GJ personal is like Kenpachi and he come to take Orihime after Ichigo lose so it possible to use her to help Ichigo can fight with him.

For Ishida , he has not more information in database of 8th epsada because he got many new skill after restore his power but Renji...I can't gusse of his new skill.

For Nell I don't know what going on with her while Uli hit Ichigo after use cero but she is interesting for me.She can heal , absolute enemy attack and she is arrancar !!
She can be front line in the war and useful then Rukia or Renji.
But how is Nell be arrancar ?

For Orihime , Only one reason of Aizen to show Hougyoku to her is using her reject to return it to form before it has seal.

For Sado , Hard to though about he can defeat an epsada but why he can't if Rukia can defeat an epsada.

For Urahara , I don't know what is the work is he say to Ichigo's friends but I gusse it will be plan for help Ichigo group back for HM.

For Shinji , He alredy know what is Ichigo going to do. Help he from GJ is too much for Vaizards so I don't think Shinji go to help Ichigo is too risk to face on epsada or Aizen.

For Ichigo , His bankai is not true of his bankai , way to use bankai Ichigo just copy from his hollow. That mean he never use real power of bankai and didn't merge shinigami power with hollow power. See he has many way to stronger.

After all I though Ichigo will going to his world , Ishida will defeat 8th epsada and GJ go to help Ichigo.

Arrancar is hollow who is break his mask and vaizard is shinigami who is use hollow power .
What if vaizard can break their mask and use power like arrancar !?

Fairy Vearth
May 05, 2007, 11:36 AM
maybe zangetsu will also show him how to use cero and teach him to release like arrancar
who knows but thats possible and ichigo is someone who learn really fast

naru_naru
May 05, 2007, 11:48 AM
the reason why ichigo isnt using more bankai techneques is because he dosnt have the time to learn them. it takes 10 years to get bankai to a point you can use it in a fight. and then it takes more fights/training to fully understand the bankai. an experienced bankai user like byakuya has spent ages getting it to where it is.

ichigo dosnt have months let alone years to get his bankai to its full potential. not only that but the hollow is inhibiting ichigo furthering his bankai training as everytime ichigo uses zangetsu in bankai he just gets more of the hollows power coming thru. for him to gain power fast he has to take control of the hollow, which will give him a big power up in a small amount of time and it might bring zangetsu back. in bleach to get huge power-ups u need to have lots of fights where u risk ur life.

about a rescue for ichigo and co:

A full scale attack by SS into unknown territory? Against someone as duplicitous as Aizen? No way.

Theres just no way Yammato risks a full scale attack on anything but neutral territory. A preemptive strike seeeems prudent...but in this case there are just too many unknows. Aizen has way too much of advantage, he knows all there is to know about SS and SS knows next to nothing of what he's got going on in HM, not even an accurate timeline on when the hougyoku will awaken. Best to prepare his forces and do his best to alter there make-up enough to make them relatively unknown to Aizen than risk resources attacking his stronghold with techniques/equipment that aizen has likely prepared for.

He wont even send a small rescue team, Anyone capable of suceeding with only a hand full of shiningami is too valuable to risk sending in before the big war. Their potential loss isnt really woth whos trapped there. Obviously Yammato would love to have Ichigo around, and he shoulllld be regretfull of Renji's loss as well, both of them being the most qualified to serve as defacto captains during the war (as far as he knows) but Rukia and the others are likely statistical no counts to him....It would take 4 or more Captain class shiningami to save 2 captain class shiningami and (as far a yammato's concerned) some extras.....just not enough of a payoff given the risk. Cold maybe...but honestly, the right move.

The Vizard MAY come......but from what I've seen they seem to want Ichigo in order boost their ranks a bit for the upcoming conflict...not because he's all that epicly stronger than their other members....which is to say they dont seem to be relying on him persay, but rather feel they'd be better off with him than without. If thats true they would avoid a rescue attempt for the sames reasons as SS PLUS 1, that being as far as we know....they're an unknown to aizen and the arrancar...giving them a bit of an edge come go time, if they go showing off in HM then they lose that advantage (assuming Ichigo hasnt already completely lost it 4 them), and I'm not sure Ichigo's worth that to them.

The only real options I see for rescue are Urahara, Isshin, Yourichi, and Ishida's dad. Ichigo and Co. (Ichigo in particular) ARE important to them for reasons I believe have yet to be revealed. Not to mention the obvious father/son and master/apprentice connections that tie those groups together...in fact they may as well be the same group at this point given that the familial and training ties are so close (especially with Ishida and Ichigo)

I dont mention Ichigo's other friends simply because...I dont see how they could go from not being able to beat a simple hollow to fighting espada in less than 5 days (not alot of time has passed since Ichigo and Co left for HM....I doubt its been a day.)

It's possible that Orihime could pull something off. Like rejecting that they ever came to help her......but that opens up a huuuuuge Deux e machina for the rest of the series. That tite may well want to avoid. Unless of course he kills Orihime, which I wouldnt put past him. She and Ichigo have NO chemistry, very few male'female characters in bleach do...with the exception of Yourichi/Urahara and.....vaugely, in a comrade in arms that could be more kinda way....Ichigo/Rukia. But even thats vauge...the fact of the matter is Ichigo's shown no HINT of intrest on any level other than a friend, and no real connection with her on any level. Orihime's just not his type. If she was she should have been able to cheer him up...period.

rai-chu
May 06, 2007, 05:07 AM
It's either the battle between the 8th espada and Uryuu
or
Grimmjow and Orihime. (His motives for approaching Orihime)

ANBU4U
May 06, 2007, 12:07 PM
For Sado , Hard to though about he can defeat an epsada but why he can't if Rukia can defeat an epsada.


Ok, for the last time to eceryone here on these boards. RUKIA GOT LUCKY.

There's no way she could have defeat that espada 'the 9th' if that EXACT scenario hadnt have played out for her. She was completely out matched, and while her double chanting was cool the espada himself said it would have only hurt alot had she actually hit him with the attack.

His raw power, combined with his knowledge of he tactics, just pwned Rukia.

The only reason she 'won' if thats what u want to call her current state... is because the 9th espada scewered her with his Zanpaktou thin lifted her dying body to his face and laughed assuming that she wouldnt even be able to move anymore, and...assuming that even if she could shes got a broken zanpaktou.

And you know what they they say, when you assume you just make an ass out of u-m-e.

Rukia 'barely' was able to move her arm up and into the espada's face. At which point the moron laughed foe about 5 seconds, wondering what she could possibly do with a broken zanpaktou....then she pulled off her otherwise useless third dance. And boom...she 'won'.

This is ceratainly a moral victory...but I hesitate to call it one in the conventional sense. Its certainly nothing to compare with other's losses to Esdapa and think "Why couldnt chad pull it off?"

If the reasons arnt obvious here's the two main reasons why.

1. Chad was fighting a MUCH higer ranked Espada, this is speculation but I'd say....2ed or 3ed. Probably 2ed.
2. Chad had no oportunity for a lucky strike.....and even if he did Notoria didnt have a glass head to pierce.

Now idk about Chad's ability...obviously his powers brand spankin new, but I dont imagine he's stronger than Ichigo.....probably around Renji in Bankai now, or just above it. So maybe he's good up to the 8th Espada or so. Where as Rukia may not have been able to take the 10th and Ichigo could have likely gone up to the 7th. Ishida....Idk probably the 8th or so as well. Though the way he fights 'with his head' I can imagine him pulling off a fight out of his leauge.
[hr]

maybe zangetsu will also show him how to use cero and teach him to release like arrancar
who knows but thats possible and ichigo is someone who learn really fast

If Vizards DO have different releases than Shiningami, and I dont think they do. Why would they be the same as an arrancar?

Arrancar are Hollow that seek the power of shiningami, so they break their mask 'symbolic of part of their hollow power' and seal their true form in their Zanpaktou. This gives them more control of their immense power.

Vizard are Shiningami that seek the power of Hollows, so they create a mask from the darker 'inner-hollow' side of their souls. Or so it seems. So the mask is symbolic of the hollow...while their sword is still the same old shiningami Soul Slayer 'which is so important to them'. If the hollows energy comes from the mask, why would their shikai and bankai released forms change?

Im pretty sure increased power as a Vizard comes from mastering the mask...being able to sustain it, and use the hollows powers that come with it 'like cero'. But the normal shiningami aspects of the viazard stay the same....the mask only serves to augment those abilities.

Why would the viazard be given two different forms and the Arrancar only one? On top of that, when u think about it bankai IS a Shiningami's true form....complete symbiosis with his Soul Slayer 'the other half of his power'.....so for a vizard, just add the mask and uve got a final form.

So yea...their wont be another release for ichigo. There will be more to what he's got...thats for sure. But no whole new release. IMO of course.
[hr]

the reason why ichigo isnt using more bankai techneques is because he dosnt have the time to learn them. it takes 10 years to get bankai to a point you can use it in a fight. and then it takes more fights/training to fully understand the bankai. an experienced bankai user like byakuya has spent ages getting it to where it is.

ichigo dosnt have months let alone years to get his bankai to its full potential. not only that but the hollow is inhibiting ichigo furthering his bankai training as everytime ichigo uses zangetsu in bankai he just gets more of the hollows power coming thru. for him to gain power fast he has to take control of the hollow, which will give him a big power up in a small amount of time and it might bring zangetsu back. in bleach to get huge power-ups u need to have lots of fights where u risk ur life.

about a rescue for ichigo and co:

Well, you have to remember Ogichi isnt ihabiting ichigo....he IS Ichigo, as much so as Zangetsu is. He's not a real hollow...but a manifestation of fear and anger and rage, basically the dark side of ichigo's soul...and remember its all those emotions that turn a plus INTO a hollow is the first place. Its by tapping into that darker side and controling it that Ichigos able to form a hollow mask.....and thats why if that darkerside ever took over Ichigo would become a hollow....I mean shiningami are essential souls, and when fear, anger, and rage take over a soul they become hollows.

So yea, anyway, now that its in control I doubt the hollow will mess its better halfs 'Old man Zangetsu's' ability to contact and inform Ichigo. Still that said your right...it takes 10 years to master bankai. But look at it this way:

1. I have a feeling the Bleach storyline will drag out quite a bit.....so they may just have Ichigo learning things about his bankai throughout the series...giving him a constant way to improve. I mean 10 years isnt that long...so one year of training..or just fighting should produce some visible results.

OR, more likely

2. It wont take long at all for ichigo to master his bankai. Byakuya said that it takes 10 years to master Bankai because of the "sheer enormity of the spirit force', in otherwise Bankai's are so large it takes a while to get used to their movements and to be able to use them as effectively as you might use their smaller versions. But Ichigo's bankai is COMPLETELY abnormal and it shrinks his power and functions as basically...a x10 version of his original form. So mastering it should take to much of a leap from mastering the movements of his original form. Zangetsu will just have to inform him of his new abilities is all...but one he knows im fairly certain they'll be simple to grasp.

Compare to renji who has to learn how to swing that GIANT baboon king zabimarua around like he'd swing it in Shikai...it'll take a bit for him.


P.S.- When did ichigo learn to fly? I just realized that in SS he needed yourichi's items to fly, but come the Arrancars arrival 'Ichigo versus GJ' he can stand/move in mid air like all the other shiningami.

gigantor21
May 06, 2007, 12:07 PM
I think it'd make more sense if tthe Vaizards did have a second release. It'd be really anticlimactic if the Vaizards could just use the mask to beat all the higher ranked Espada, when Ichigo wasn't even able to hurt an unreleased Ulquiorra. If they had a more Hollow-ish form that could only be revealed with the mask on, it'd be awesome--and better for the story.

ANBU4U
May 06, 2007, 01:16 PM
I think it'd make more sense if tthe Vaizards did have a second release. It'd be really anticlimactic if the Vaizards could just use the mask to beat all the higher ranked Espada, when Ichigo wasn't even able to hurt an unreleased Ulquiorra. If they had a more Hollow-ish form that could only be revealed with the mask on, it'd be awesome--and better for the story.

Not really, tey can likely just use them better.

Its like......Ichigo being able to punch through a luitenants Shikai. He was just more powerfull. Or Ichigo's Shikai cutting through Ikkaku's, or Kenpachi's slicing through his ect. ect.

Ichigo's mask is like...brand new. Why would he be able to use his as well as the others?

Besides, had he been able to keep the mask on indeffinately he....MAY have been able to force Uli to release....actually I take that back. But he'd deffinately have been able to make GJ release. Which isnt soo bad.....he just needs to work harder to rise up the ranks.

Or who knows, he may not have to. Maybe Yammato and the rest of the Senior captains will take them.

notBowen
May 06, 2007, 03:17 PM
I think it'd make more sense if tthe Vaizards did have a second release. It'd be really anticlimactic if the Vaizards could just use the mask to beat all the higher ranked Espada, when Ichigo wasn't even able to hurt an unreleased Ulquiorra. If they had a more Hollow-ish form that could only be revealed with the mask on, it'd be awesome--and better for the story.Well considering that the Arrancar turn into more Hollowish forms, the Vizards probably maintain their Shinigami forms moreso. Probably a suit of armor or something like that.

captrosko
May 06, 2007, 09:09 PM
Interesting discussions, seems a bit off topic... but no matter...

On the vaizard release notes... I noticed none have even touched shikai, or bankei at all. They only seem to use their masks. Granted we haven't seen them fight any prolonged battles. I'm just theorizing once they get the hang of the using the hollow mask, that they lose touch with their Zanpakutou's spirit form and abilities. Dunno if that would turn out to be true or not. Though when I imagine that becoming known to Ichigo, and he's faced with the possibility of losing Old man Zangetsu forever, that it may be an interesting twist.

The hollow is becoming the dominant power house anyway. Ochigo (wichigo, whatever he's called) bragged about that. So if the hollow becomes the soul source of power for a vaizard, I can see that becoming the case. Like two sides of a flip coin, each side has its own image and characteristics. So may the Zanpakutou spirit form and the hollow form as well.

The relationship also begs me to question whether the source of all Shinigami powers dwells in that polarity. The power of a tamed hollow in the form of a soul cutter. I'm blathering... ignore the rantings of this madman....

Predictions for the next chapter...? Probably the fight with Octava Espada and the dynamic duo again. The cliffhanger at the end makes me think that it will be the dominant storyline. Hopefully some surprises will be thrown our way. I'm still rooting on Ichigo's hollow taking complete control and joining with the Espada. Same for Chad as well, since his powers are hollow like anyway.

Campaign for the arrancarization of Ichigo and Chad!! All say Aye or no cookies!

Splat
May 06, 2007, 09:50 PM
On the vaizard release notes... I noticed none have even touched shikai, or bankei at all. They only seem to use their masks.

Not true. Kensei muguruma has displayed a clear transformation of his zanpakuto, see chapter 216 when the vizards pin down the demented hollow ichigo, and then chapter 220 when he fights the transforming ichigo. In the latter he has a small dagger-like zanpakuto, on the first, a more regular katana type. Which is his shikai is debatable, but he is definitely in shikai in one of them. I think it is more likely that vizards simply have enough control over their hollow sides that releasing is not necessary(unless a really powerful enemy appears), maybe they mostly never achieved shikai and bankai, and thats why they sought vizard powers, as a way to be powerful without the training. Notice that when ichigo went hollow, he destroyed hiyori, even though he was only in shikai. So if ichigo can gain true control, he has huge power potential.

ANBU4U
May 06, 2007, 10:05 PM
Interesting discussions, seems a bit off topic... but no matter...

On the vaizard release notes... I noticed none have even touched shikai, or bankei at all. They only seem to use their masks. Granted we haven't seen them fight any prolonged battles. I'm just theorizing once they get the hang of the using the hollow mask, that they lose touch with their Zanpakutou's spirit form and abilities. Dunno if that would turn out to be true or not. Though when I imagine that becoming known to Ichigo, and he's faced with the possibility of losing Old man Zangetsu forever, that it may be an interesting twist.

The hollow is becoming the dominant power house anyway. Ochigo (wichigo, whatever he's called) bragged about that. So if the hollow becomes the soul source of power for a vaizard, I can see that becoming the case. Like two sides of a flip coin, each side has its own image and characteristics. So may the Zanpakutou spirit form and the hollow form as well.

The relationship also begs me to question whether the source of all Shinigami powers dwells in that polarity. The power of a tamed hollow in the form of a soul cutter. I'm blathering... ignore the rantings of this madman....

Predictions for the next chapter...? Probably the fight with Octava Espada and the dynamic duo again. The cliffhanger at the end makes me think that it will be the dominant storyline. Hopefully some surprises will be thrown our way. I'm still rooting on Ichigo's hollow taking complete control and joining with the Espada. Same for Chad as well, since his powers are hollow like anyway.

Campaign for the arrancarization of Ichigo and Chad!! All say Aye or no cookies!

Well that seems like a bit of a jump. We've never really seen one pressured in any way. Thats probably why none have released. I find it hard to believe the hollow has taken over their shinigami powers completely when they 'push it down to the core of their souls' Ogichi himself said that if he was defeated by ichigo old man Zangetsu would become the dominant fascet of his Zanpaktou again.
[hr]

Not true. Kensei muguruma has displayed a clear transformation of his zanpakuto, see chapter 216 when the vizards pin down the demented hollow ichigo, and then chapter 220 when he fights the transforming ichigo. In the latter he has a small dagger-like zanpakuto, on the first, a more regular katana type. Which is his shikai is debatable, but he is definitely in shikai in one of them. I think it is more likely that vizards simply have enough control over their hollow sides that releasing is not necessary(unless a really powerful enemy appears), maybe they mostly never achieved shikai and bankai, and thats why they sought vizard powers, as a way to be powerful without the training. Notice that when ichigo went hollow, he destroyed hiyori, even though he was only in shikai. So if ichigo can gain true control, he has huge power potential.

4got about that. You're absolute right, he did use shikai. The only one to do so btw....everone else handeled him unreleased WITHOUT a mask on. Says alot about how powerfull some of them are.

brebaz
May 07, 2007, 01:45 AM
i think we will see a release from Ichigo Soon enough cuz in the first time when he was training with urhara when he became a shinigami he had a mask on him then latter on we seen the Hollow-ichigo in the fight with baykuya and also when he was trying to Aquire the Vaizard powers we have seen him in the full hollow it's like a spoilers we get in the previous Chapters i hope that will be right and we get to see a Released Ichigo :D that will be awesome

luna_wolf
May 07, 2007, 06:11 AM
i totaly agree brebaz!^^
it wont exacly be elagent judging from the first look at it but it would be soo cool!

naru_naru
May 07, 2007, 06:44 AM
i think we will see a release from Ichigo Soon enough cuz in the first time when he was training with urhara when he became a shinigami he had a mask on him then latter on we seen the Hollow-ichigo in the fight with baykuya and also when he was trying to Aquire the Vaizard powers we have seen him in the full hollow it's like a spoilers we get in the previous Chapters i hope that will be right and we get to see a Released Ichigo :D that will be awesome


sorry your post is really confusing.
the time ichigo got a mask was when he obtained his shinigami powers, the mask was just a hint of the possible presence of a hollow side to ichigo. that was picked up in the kenpachi fight and confirmed in the byakuya fight. those scenes never hinted at another release state for ichigo especially as one of them was in a battle that focused on ichgos bankai.

if your talking about the hollow form ichigo's body took when ichigo went to his inner-world to fight hollow-ichigo. then i think ur confused that hollow was a mindless puppet it couldnt fight properly noone was in control of that body as the fight for control over it was happening inside.

vizards dont have a hollow release form, they release from their zanpaktou; only the arrancer have hollow releases states via their zanpaktou. vizards most probably have shinigami releases as the hollow power takes the form of the mask they wear. although the hollow form gives the vizards a hugh power up and other skills, such as cero; it dosnt give them another state of release (like a bankai or shikai). the hollow powers in the vizards manifest itself as another source of reiatsu; it increases the amount of reiatsu avaliable when using shinigami abilities (like shikai and bankai). we have seen this from hollow-ichigo's getsuga.

brebaz
May 07, 2007, 07:19 AM
sorry your post is really confusing.
the time ichigo got a mask was when he obtained his shinigami powers, the mask was just a hint of the possible presence of a hollow side to ichigo. that was picked up in the kenpachi fight and confirmed in the byakuya fight. those scenes never hinted at another release state for ichigo especially as one of them was in a battle that focused on ichgos bankai.

if your talking about the hollow form ichigo's body took when ichigo went to his inner-world to fight hollow-ichigo. then i think ur confused that hollow was a mindless puppet it couldnt fight properly noone was in control of that body as the fight for control over it was happening inside.

vizards dont have a hollow release form, they release from their zanpaktou; only the arrancer have hollow releases states via their zanpaktou. vizards most probably have shinigami releases as the hollow power takes the form of the mask they wear. although the hollow form gives the vizards a hugh power up and other skills, such as cero; it dosnt give them another state of release (like a bankai or shikai). the hollow powers in the vizards manifest itself as another source of reiatsu; it increases the amount of reiatsu avaliable when using shinigami abilities (like shikai and bankai). we have seen this from hollow-ichigo's getsuga.

Maybe i'm Wrong And you are right but i think in time we will see what will happen And i think Kubo Gives us clues of what will happen next every time i'll say we will wait and see what will happen next

naru_naru
May 07, 2007, 07:45 AM
Maybe i'm Wrong And you are right but i think in time we will see what will happen And i think Kubo Gives us clues of what will happen next every time i'll say we will wait and see what will happen next

i didn't understand your post so i replied to what i assumed u were trying to say. feel free to elaborate on your initial post because i stll dont understand everything your saying.

btw if ichigo gets a hollow release like the arrancer and has vizard abilities that would make him completely unique. kubo made a group of ppl called the vizard to prevent the main character becoming unique in the form ur talking about i.e: ichigo has ALL the abilities from ALL the characters, shikai, bankai, hollow release and hollow mask etc. it just gets silly and the whole manga becomes predictable and silly. the thing that sets ichigo apart from many other characters is that he seeks power to protect people whilst others seek power to destroy.

Fairy Vearth
May 07, 2007, 10:37 AM
i like it that he seeks power so we ll maybe see a fight ichigo vs yamamato cause he walked to hueco mondo without permission... hehe that will be fun i wonder how powerful yamamato is -i mean we havent seen his shikai and bankai -that will be interesting

and ichigo have to learn this magic technics #1 #2 #3 etc. i just dont understand why his sword changed to bankai in the end ...

Remus
May 07, 2007, 10:38 AM
i didn't understand your post so i replied to what i assumed u were trying to say. feel free to elaborate on your initial post because i stll dont understand everything your saying.

btw if ichigo gets a hollow release like the arrancer and has vizard abilities that would make him completely unique. kubo made a group of ppl called the vizard to prevent the main character becoming unique in the form ur talking about i.e: ichigo has ALL the abilities from ALL the characters, shikai, bankai, hollow release and hollow mask. it just gets silly and the whole manga becomes predictable and silly. the thing that sets ichigo apart from many other characters is that he seeks power to protect people whilst others seek power to destroy.

Well Ichigo already is unique. Or did you see other Vaizards use Shikai or even Bankai ? They dont because what they use is their hollow. And that Ichigo might get something similar to arrancar release is obvious thats right but again it will be something else. Many people think his hollow is a Vasto Lorde and I think the difference Ichigo will make is that he might team up with his hollow instead of making him his horse. But all that will not happen now I suppose. And you know fighting for others than fighting for himself is what every hero got in common and is what makes them stronger. Reading mangas should have told you that by now.

naru_naru
May 07, 2007, 11:46 AM
Well Ichigo already is unique. Or did you see other Vaizards use Shikai or even Bankai ? They dont because what they use is their hollow. And that Ichigo might get something similar to arrancar release is obvious thats right but again it will be something else. Many people think his hollow is a Vasto Lorde and I think the difference Ichigo will make is that he might team up with his hollow instead of making him his horse. But all that will not happen now I suppose. And you know fighting for others than fighting for himself is what every hero got in common and is what makes them stronger. Reading mangas should have told you that by now.

reason why we havnt seen any vizards release is because they havent required to release. remember vizards are shinigami who have obtained their hollow mask by taiming the hollow within. as they were shinigami to begin with then their release will be in shinigami form. the hollow aspect of the shinigami provides them another source of reiatsu, however it does not have a released state; i.e: it isnt sealed to begin with. this isnt the thread to be going into depth about the differences between shinigami, hollows, arrancer, vizards, quincy and ppl like chad. there are obvious differences with sets them apart (shinigami seeking the inner hollow, hollows awakening their zanpaktou, ppl still living gaining abilities).

in terms of hollow-ichigo; hollow-ichigo probably could be vast-lorde level i recall reading a very good post arguing the point that souls that become hollows which have captain level reiatsu are probably vasto-lorde amongst other very solid points (cant recall who wrote it ><). however hollow-ichigo is still a another side to zangetsu, i.e: another part of ichigos soul; hollow-ichigo confirms this in the 1st real fight between ichigo and hollow-ichigo. if ichigo wants to use hollow-ichigo he will need to tame the hollow as the hollow has no desire to teach ichigo anything like zangetsu did.

ANBU4U
May 07, 2007, 12:47 PM
i think we will see a release from Ichigo Soon enough cuz in the first time when he was training with urhara when he became a shinigami he had a mask on him then latter on we seen the Hollow-ichigo in the fight with baykuya and also when he was trying to Aquire the Vaizard powers we have seen him in the full hollow it's like a spoilers we get in the previous Chapters i hope that will be right and we get to see a Released Ichigo :D that will be awesome

That was just the hollow transformation beginning. Arrancar turn into more hollowish forms. Why would the Vizard do the same when they're the inverse of them. The Vizard probably maintain a shiningami dominant form supplimented by the mask..thats all. Just like Arrancar maintain a hollow dominant form supplimented with a zanpaktuo. Arrancar release their zanpaktuo, Vizard bring down their mask.
[hr]

i like it that he seeks power so we ll maybe see a fight ichigo vs yamamato cause he walked to hueco mondo without permission... hehe that will be fun i wonder how powerful yamamato is -i mean we havent seen his shikai and bankai -that will be interesting

and ichigo have to learn this magic technics #1 #2 #3 etc. i just dont understand why his sword changed to bankai in the end ...

Huh?

Yammato wont fight Ichigo for going to HM...he has no real command over him. His refusing to let Ichigo go to HM only worked because as far he knew he was the only person that could open a portal going there. I think his tone would have been somewhat less bossy if he knew Ichigo could get there without him.

And we have seen Yammato's Shikai....it's montrous.

As for Ichigo and Kido....I just dont see it happening, I cant think of any short cuts that would get him to 70's and higher level spells without going through the lower ones first. And he's just not patient enough to memorize the spells. But who knows...maybe he has enough raw reiatsu to just skip all the chants...but something just screams NO with Ichigo and Kido. It'd be cool if he did learn tho.

Now for the bankai thing........I imagine your talking about his bankai reverting to Shikai in the last chapter? If you are that means he's near death, all zanpaktou revert to their default forms when their shiningami are at deaths door....or rebirths door....Im not sure how they can 'die' as they are already dead. Once shiningami die dont they do back to earth and get reborn? Or is their an after afterlife. Tshhh SS is SO full of plotholes.
[hr]

Well Ichigo already is unique. Or did you see other Vaizards use Shikai or even Bankai ? They dont because what they use is their hollow. And that Ichigo might get something similar to arrancar release is obvious thats right but again it will be something else. Many people think his hollow is a Vasto Lorde and I think the difference Ichigo will make is that he might team up with his hollow instead of making him his horse. But all that will not happen now I suppose. And you know fighting for others than fighting for himself is what every hero got in common and is what makes them stronger. Reading mangas should have told you that by now.

Well, we've seen at least one Vizard use his Shikai already....so there goes your theory right there. It was the sliver haired guy, when he was holding of ichigo while his hollow was taking over he turned his zanpaktuo into a dagger that could shoot some sort of energy bomb off. At the time he wasnt even using his mask futher throwing ur theory out the window.

As for manga heros getting stronger because they need to protect, your right generally. But still Ichigo's own soul told him thats not enough to win...but that he needs to fight for the sake of fighting, for the glory of battle. Which is also a factor in ALOT of mangas, DBZ comes to mind. Its a growing theme in Bleach.

Remus
May 07, 2007, 03:03 PM
Well, we've seen at least one Vizard use his Shikai already....so there goes your theory right there. It was the sliver haired guy, when he was holding of ichigo while his hollow was taking over he turned his zanpaktuo into a dagger that could shoot some sort of energy bomb off. At the time he wasnt even using his mask futher throwing ur theory out the window.

As for manga heros getting stronger because they need to protect, your right generally. But still Ichigo's own soul told him thats not enough to win...but that he needs to fight for the sake of fighting, for the glory of battle. Which is also a factor in ALOT of mangas, DBZ comes to mind. Its a growing theme in Bleach.

The dagger was a Shikai ? Dunno about the manga havent got that in mind now but since the Anime has caught up with that and the last eps featured the character you mentionend you could clearly see that he drew up the dagger in the first place without changing his zanpanktou. Would be nice if you bring up those pages because the anime aint a real reference. And for my theory as you call it. Why does Shinji only use his mask in the fight with Grimmjow ? Wouldn't if be a bit smarter to go Bankai before you show off your hidden Ace like Ichigo does ?
In my eyes there wasnt even one Vaizard using something near Shikai or Bankai. They got their own style like the Arrancar do and Ichigo is somewhere in between.

@naru naru

That is a difference aint it ? They havent required it because they cant or they dont want to ? That's what Aizen wants you know. Get 100% of both in order to reach new limits.

lexx
May 07, 2007, 04:53 PM
It seems to be the rule up until now that swords that deviate from the basic katana shape are in their initial release state. With this in mind, it can be inferred that the vizard who just recently in the anime took part in keeping Ichigo's transformed Hollow-form under control was using his shikai. Since there was no release shown, it can also be inferred that his sword was an "always on" released type, akin to Ichigo's Zangetsu.

Some background on a theory I'm about to make:

Hollow-Ichigo explained during their "King & His Horse" struggle that he and Zangetsu are just two different faces of Ichigo's soul, and that because Ichigo's soul is an amalgamation of many conflicting influences, whichever influence is strongest will become the manifestation of his power. So right now Ichigo's strongest aspect is the hollow, and its power far outranks that of Zangetsu.

With this in mind:

Ichigo's trying to extract power from two avatars of his soul at the same time: Zangetsu & the hollow. The vizards thus far have only been shown fighting with their hollow released, and it may be easier to handle one at a time, rather than both.

On the other hand, it may just be that Ichigo's fighting instinct is pretty freaking weak, and for that reason he has a hard time staying on top of his "strong, yet vicious & bloodthirsty" persona. The other vizards have all mastered their hollow powers, even though quite a few of them don't have the personalities to match the kind of killer instinct required for such a feat. Ichigo's difficulty maintaining hollow-form might be caused by something else altogether.

What's interesting is the observation that Ichigo's control issue with hollow-mode isn't limited to time duration. When first encountering Ichigo, Ulquiorra noticed Ichigo's spirit power fluctuated wildly and that Ichigo's power peaked higher than his own. If Ichigo now is able to bring out all his latent power with the hollow mask, he would've been much more of a challenge for Ulquiorra during this latest encounter.

So: Ichigo can maintain the hollow mask and power increase it brings for a few seconds, but it's not even the full extent of his potential ability.

Finally, a prediction:

Ulquiorra leaves, disappointed. Grimmjow, defying Aizen's orders, takes Innoue to heal Ichigo so they can finally duke it out to their satisfaction. Alternate scenario: he takes Innoue to heal Ichigo's crew so that Ichigo doesn't die & Grimjow has a chance to finally go at it with him once Aizen decides to finally let him. Meanwhile Ichigo's having a grand old time inside his own little world (it happens every time he's about to die, this is no different).

Splat
May 07, 2007, 05:15 PM
Would be nice if you bring up those pages because the anime aint a real reference.

Chapter 216, katana like zanpakuto, chapter 220, dagger like zanpakuto. On the point of the rest of the vizards not using shikai, and noone using bankai, they may not even have learned them yet, or simply have enough power without needing to use them, for the enemies that they have encountered so far.

Prediction: more on the fight, with renji escaping to help rukia, and finding chad on the way there, maybe a scene with ichigo's inner world, but for a reality check, not a power up.

platypus
May 07, 2007, 05:16 PM
Has anyone considered the possibility that Grimmjow is hoping to prove Ulquiorra wrong? If Ichigo survives, Grimmjow can say "see, I told you it was a mistake!" Calling Ulquiorra out on such a thing would certainly cause a lack of respect. Ulquiorra again would use his "not worth killing" line which would be proven as a lie, since Ichigo has proved he can handle at least a few of the espada, and Rukia even killed the Espada.

I'm thinking Grimmjow is making a power play of some sort.

Or perhaps Grimmjow wants to see if Orihime can heal up his dead Fraccion XD

lexx
May 07, 2007, 05:29 PM
Dead Fraccion: no
Power Play: no. Aizen brought Grimjow to his knees just by smiling & effortlessly raising his spirit power. The power gap needed to overwhelm someone just with your presence in Bleach is rather massive.
Proving Ulquiorra wrong: Grimjow's not that petty. Ichigo is still not worth killing by Ulquiorra's judgement. Ichigo's 3 months of growth have had pathetic results.

naru_naru
May 07, 2007, 06:02 PM
The dagger was a Shikai ? Dunno about the manga havent got that in mind now but since the Anime has caught up with that and the last eps featured the character you mentionend you could clearly see that he drew up the dagger in the first place without changing his zanpanktou. Would be nice if you bring up those pages because the anime aint a real reference. And for my theory as you call it. Why does Shinji only use his mask in the fight with Grimmjow ? Wouldn't if be a bit smarter to go Bankai before you show off your hidden Ace like Ichigo does ?
In my eyes there wasnt even one Vaizard using something near Shikai or Bankai. They got their own style like the Arrancar do and Ichigo is somewhere in between.

@naru naru

That is a difference aint it ? They havent required it because they cant or they dont want to ? That's what Aizen wants you know. Get 100% of both in order to reach new limits.

after ANBU4U's post went back and checked...indeed the guy called muguruma Kensei has a sealed katana style zanpaktou in ch 217 (when everyone stops hollow ichigo killing the girl vizard) and in ch 219 he releases it to a small knife (when he goes in the box with transforming ichigo). so the vizards seem to have releases similar to shinigami, which makes sense as they were "shinigami" to begin with.

the reason why shinji didnt release his zanpaktou is very clear: he didnt need to; grimjaw had taken a beating from ichigo and one cero from shinji nearly ko'ed grimjaw. people keep talking like the inner-hollow will give the shinigami another release state. the hollow reiatsu isnt sealed, when you tame the inner-hollow you get a mask as a symbol of this fact. to put it simply to a vizard the hollow reiatsu is half of their whole reiatsu and the shinigami reiatsu is the other half. the zanpaktou is still used to channel the reiatsu, however in a vizard the zanpaktou channels both reiatsus. to fight without the mask is like fighting with a limiter its pointless. the release states of a zanpaktou (for a vizard) gets a power boost from the inner-hollow reiatsu. the techniques they might get with the inner-hollow is techniques like cero and maybe in certain cases (like ichigo) new skills with the zanpaktou.

the reason why ichigo went bankai and got his mask out was because bankai alone isnt enough against grimjaw that is clear from their initial encounter.

when u say placing ichigo in between the arrancer and vizard do you mean ichigo can get arrancer type release and shinigami type release along with the hollow mask?
i really hope you dont mean that :(





Has anyone considered the possibility that Grimmjow is hoping to prove Ulquiorra wrong? If Ichigo survives, Grimmjow can say "see, I told you it was a mistake!" Calling Ulquiorra out on such a thing would certainly cause a lack of respect. Ulquiorra again would use his "not worth killing" line which would be proven as a lie, since Ichigo has proved he can handle at least a few of the espada, and Rukia even killed the Espada.

I'm thinking Grimmjow is making a power play of some sort.

Or perhaps Grimmjow wants to see if Orihime can heal up his dead Fraccion XD

ichigo would have owned grimjaw if his mask had not shattered during their second fight by just using getsugas. ichigo against Uli used what seemed his most powerful getsuga and Uli stopped it with his hands. there is a massive difference of power between Uli and grimmjaw i dont see grimmjaw beating Uli. in respect of grimmjaw hoping to prove Uli wrong.....if ichigo is alive and grimmjaw finds him he'll probably kill him if he heals him it will be only to have a fight to the death. the reason why Uli didnt land the finishing blow is because ichigo still isnt a threat, Uli is only no4 and he can stop a getsuga that seriously hurt no6 imagen what no1 will do. rukias win was pure luck the espada was gloating, got careless (cos he thought rukia was almost dead due to the broken zanpaktou), left an opening to his weak spot and got owned.

linuxotaku
May 08, 2007, 12:23 AM
ichigo would have owned grimjaw if his mask had not shattered during their second fight by just using getsugas. ichigo against Uli used what seemed his most powerful getsuga and Uli stopped it with his hands. there is a massive difference of power between Uli and grimmjaw i dont see grimmjaw beating Uli. in respect of grimmjaw hoping to prove Uli wrong.....if ichigo is alive and grimmjaw finds him he'll probably kill him if he heals him it will be only to have a fight to the death. the reason why Uli didnt land the finishing blow is because ichigo still isnt a threat, Uli is only no4 and he can stop a getsuga that seriously hurt no6 imagen what no1 will do. rukias win was pure luck the espada was gloating, got careless (cos he thought rukia was almost dead due to the broken zanpaktou), left an opening to his weak spot and got owned.

Actually -- Uli says that he was unable to stop the blast even using both hands, and that surprised him, in #271. I actually wondered if Uli released to stop the attack (it took a while for him to reappear), but it's not likely that he'd release and then seal again. It was clear that Uli said that Ichigo could be stronger than Uli a while back -- so if Ichigo could master his current powers (no powerups, just better use of what he's got) that'd put him above Espada #4.

I'd like Rukia to be stronger; it's possible that she wasn't able to fight due to lack of guilt about Kaien. But it does seem that she wouldn't have won without a lucky break.

ANBU4U
May 08, 2007, 01:14 AM
The dagger was a Shikai ? Dunno about the manga havent got that in mind now but since the Anime has caught up with that and the last eps featured the character you mentionend you could clearly see that he drew up the dagger in the first place without changing his zanpanktou. Would be nice if you bring up those pages because the anime aint a real reference. And for my theory as you call it. Why does Shinji only use his mask in the fight with Grimmjow ? Wouldn't if be a bit smarter to go Bankai before you show off your hidden Ace like Ichigo does ?
In my eyes there wasnt even one Vaizard using something near Shikai or Bankai. They got their own style like the Arrancar do and Ichigo is somewhere in between.

@naru naru

That is a difference aint it ? They havent required it because they cant or they dont want to ? That's what Aizen wants you know. Get 100% of both in order to reach new limits.


What makes you assume his mask is a Hidden Ace? He's not like ichigo, he can maintain his mask indeffinately most likely/ Meaning he doesnt have to put it on as some last ditch effort but can rather just go Shikai or Bankai while its on....

As for the Zanpaktou:

Anime Episode 123: 5 mins and 51 seconds in you CLEARLY see him holding a zanpaktou.

Anime Episode 124: 9 mins and 50 seconds in he fights ichigo with a dagger...I mean clearly he changed it.

Im too lazy to re-download the chapters at this hour but im 100% positive they're the same. Check if you'd like.

THETRUTH.com
May 08, 2007, 01:31 AM
Actually -- Uli says that he was unable to stop the blast even using both hands, and that surprised him, in #271. I actually wondered if Uli released to stop the attack (it took a while for him to reappear), but it's not likely that he'd release and then seal again. It was clear that Uli said that Ichigo could be stronger than Uli a while back -- so if Ichigo could master his current powers (no powerups, just better use of what he's got) that'd put him above Espada #4.

I'd like Rukia to be stronger; it's possible that she wasn't able to fight due to lack of guilt about Kaien. But it does seem that she wouldn't have won without a lucky break.

Agreed about Rukia, also consider the advantage he had by knowing the genesis of her fighting style.

Prediction See about Ichigo inner world (old man Zangetsu appears? maybe he is back since Ichi began training w/ vaizards) Renji and Ishida go to Rukia

Remus
May 08, 2007, 06:42 AM
What makes you assume his mask is a Hidden Ace? He's not like ichigo, he can maintain his mask indeffinately most likely/ Meaning he doesnt have to put it on as some last ditch effort but can rather just go Shikai or Bankai while its on....

As for the Zanpaktou:

Anime Episode 123: 5 mins and 51 seconds in you CLEARLY see him holding a zanpaktou.

Anime Episode 124: 9 mins and 50 seconds in he fights ichigo with a dagger...I mean clearly he changed it.

Im too lazy to re-download the chapters at this hour but im 100% positive they're the same. Check if you'd like.

Isnt that what we are talking here about all along ? Ichigo is different from the Vaizards. Well I havent checked it since I dont keep the eps or chapters but since many said it, I guess its right but maybe he just uses a dagger ^_^
About Shinji and the mask I already said that the Vizard have their own style. They rely on their hollow more than their zanpaktou. Ichigo on the other hand tries both which most likely gives him an advantage. Yet since he hasnt mastered any of his powers he still might be weaker than Shinji with his mask. But I'm assuming the full concept. You know Ichigo wouldnt be the main hero if he is the same as a Shinigami or a Vaizard or an Arrancar. Something singles him out thats it and thats the only thing I want to say. Maybe he gains something similar to the Arrancar release but that again will be a bit different.

Let's see what the new chapter brings.

naru_naru
May 08, 2007, 07:54 AM
Actually -- Uli says that he was unable to stop the blast even using both hands, and that surprised him, in #271. I actually wondered if Uli released to stop the attack (it took a while for him to reappear), but it's not likely that he'd release and then seal again. It was clear that Uli said that Ichigo could be stronger than Uli a while back -- so if Ichigo could master his current powers (no powerups, just better use of what he's got) that'd put him above Espada #4.

I'd like Rukia to be stronger; it's possible that she wasn't able to fight due to lack of guilt about Kaien. But it does seem that she wouldn't have won without a lucky break.

yea ur right Uli did say he was surprised he couldnt stop it with 2 hands. but its the state he was in after the attack it was like he was unharmed, compared to grimmjaw is still quiet a big difference.

the part about ichigo being stronger than Uli. during the initial encounter between ichigo and Uli, when the hollow tried to come out it boosted ichigo's reiatsu and when ichigo tried to suppress it, his reiatsu went back down to normal. this caused the fluctuation that Uli was commenting on. if ichigo masters his mask and goes bankai then his reiatsu might surpass Uli. having said all that Uli still had his zanpaktou sealed.

Vegetoacs
May 08, 2007, 12:59 PM
Phew...quite a few sizable posts this week....ANBU4U espicially :O

A lot of people seem to assume that Ichigo will have some unusual release that singles him out as the main character. The brilliant thing about Bleach is that the main character isn't defined by some special or unique power. The only thing that Ichigo maintains that is unique is his ungodly rate of power ups. Even this however has dwindled in recent times as he only has his hollow powers to properly attain. Any increase in power beyond that is entirely technique based. It's probably a bit unreasonable to expect Ichigo to be beyond the level of the basic Espada, given he was only knocking around lower class hollows to a gillian menos some months prior to this arc. He also only had one month to try and learn the use of his mask prior to Inoue's capture.

I think we're not used to reading a shonen that has the supposed main character getting his ass handed to him this much in a row, which is why it's starting to feel old. Ichigo is currently being treated equally with the other characters in terms of power ups. The thing to remember is that the evidence strongly points to Ichigo being a normal vizard, given that he is dominant half is shinigami, while his recessive half is hollow. This is because he was mostly certainly shinigami first, and only on reattaining his shinigami powers, did he become half hollow. We cant entirely make a judgement call on this though, because we're not entirely sure how the vizard acquired their powers yet. Ichigo should start to fight properly once this arc finishes, by properly mastering his powers.

The interesting thing about this arc is that it seems to simply indicate that the character's powers, though increased prior to the rescue arc, and given that Aizen will attain hollow powers at some point, if he hasn't already, perhaps Tite is indicating that he may be moving the manga away from the idea of winning by overpowering the enemy, and balance it a bit more with a naruto styled tactics of combat. We've already seen tactical combat with Ishida, and kenpachi defeating tousen's bankai...so it's probably not out of the question.

Bleach has been nearly impossible to predict lately, aside from the fact that Ichigo facing ulioqurria would end badly...even if we could hope he wouldn't get completely pwned...

I think the only safe thing to say is that the arc is close to compleltion, and will end soon. I'm fairly confident that Zael will go down to Ishida, but after that, everyone will be down for the count. The odds against Ishida and Renji in the situation where they do defeat zael are just terrible...given aizen will perceive them to be a greater threat, and possibly tire of his game and send someone to kill them or knock them off.

We've got to somehow fill the gap between completely pwned heros to safely training for the winter war. It all down to grimmjaw and orihime's errand now.... So here's hoping we see some spoilers today! :O


PS. Sorry that this post is fairly rambled and half thought out...posting at 4am my time isnt the wisest thing sometimes... Have fun everyone :D

ANBU4U
May 08, 2007, 04:10 PM
Isnt that what we are talking here about all along ? Ichigo is different from the Vaizards. Well I havent checked it since I dont keep the eps or chapters but since many said it, I guess its right but maybe he just uses a dagger ^_^
About Shinji and the mask I already said that the Vizard have their own style. They rely on their hollow more than their zanpaktou. Ichigo on the other hand tries both which most likely gives him an advantage. Yet since he hasnt mastered any of his powers he still might be weaker than Shinji with his mask. But I'm assuming the full concept. You know Ichigo wouldnt be the main hero if he is the same as a Shinigami or a Vaizard or an Arrancar. Something singles him out thats it and thats the only thing I want to say. Maybe he gains something similar to the Arrancar release but that again will be a bit different.

Let's see what the new chapter brings.

We havent seen nearly enough ouf Vaizard combat to draw the conclusions you're making.

Ichigo's no different than the rest of the vizard so far as we've seen, he's just inexperienced and as such has to conserve the usage of his hollow powers. The rest of the Vizard are more liberal with their mask usage because they can afford to be, its that simple.

I imagine wether or not they pull down their mask first or last is entirely up to preference. They can either go shikai...or maybe bankai, then pull their mask down, or pull their mask down then go shikai or bankai. Tomato, Toma[h]to. It's all about how much power they think they need, and how soon.

We've seen Shinji start a battle off with his mask on "after saying you seem to be powerfull so lets end this quick" and we've seen all the other Vizard fighting Ichigo's hollow form with just their Zanpaktou even tho he was monstrously strong at the time. It seems to be prefrence.

xbillyx
May 10, 2007, 01:22 AM
I just saw episode 125 subbed version in which Hollow Ichigo says " If you really want to control my powers, dont die before I appear in front of you again"...so Im guessing Ogichi will come before Ichigo one last time in his inner world and Ichigo has to beat him 1 more time to FULLY awaken his hollow powers.... after that Ulqouirra will get pwned in the coming chapters...along with Grimmjow.

naru_naru
May 10, 2007, 01:39 AM
we dont yet know what the consequences were to zangetsu when ichigo beat hollow-ichigo. therefore there is a good chance it can actually be old man zangetsu if there is an inner world scene. in terms of power-ups after an inner-world scene; i dont think we will see any at the moment as the fight is already over and ichigo is in critical health.

Remus
May 10, 2007, 08:56 AM
we dont yet know what the consequences were to zangetsu when ichigo beat hollow-ichigo. therefore there is a good chance it can actually be old man zangetsu if there is an inner world scene. in terms of power-ups after an inner-world scene; i dont think we will see any at the moment as the fight is already over and ichigo is in critical health.

Yeah and staying there, dying is the other option, aint it ? Either way someone visits him or the inner world scene will turn up. Otherwise Ichigo is dead meat, which cant happen.

Raijatsu
May 11, 2007, 02:30 PM
this chapter was..... better than the last one but still not good.
Bleach really needs some tention again it's pretty boring right now

at leats I know how to write "Szayel Aporro" in european letters now but how should we pronounse Szayel?

gigantor21
May 11, 2007, 02:36 PM
^No. I refuse to accept that spelling. It's repulsive.

And yeah, this chapter was just okay. The story still didn't move forward much, and I don't like the seemingly infinite range of Orihime's powers. There are a lot of other fronts I'm more interested in right now, and I would've rather seen those than more of Loli and Menoli, or Renji and Ishida.

ForteAnly
May 11, 2007, 02:36 PM
I think that Ichigo is dead and that Orihime will probably revive him using her power to reject events. If she was able to bring back that Arrancar girl who got incinerated by Grimmjow's Cero blast then the chances of Orihime bringing back Ichigo is likely. But, then we will have a DBZ moment where everyone could just get revived no matter how many times they die. Just a opinion regarding Ichigo lying on the floor beaten.

gigantor21
May 11, 2007, 02:39 PM
^ That's exactly why I don't like her ability to revive people. I don't like the idea of main characters being able to die now, because someone can just bring them back like nothing happened. Kubo had better put some serious conditions of usage on that.

ForteAnly
May 11, 2007, 02:41 PM
^ That's exactly why I don't like her ability to revive people. I don't like the idea of main characters being able to die now, because someone can just bring them back like nothing happened. Kubo had better put some serious conditions of usage on that.

He will probably put some sort of restrictions on her powers but the typical shonen way to do is that it will shorten your life etc, etc.

daniel1983
May 11, 2007, 02:47 PM
Renji and the Quincy will get taken out in 275....then....


Orihime is going to die...does anyone else see that coming?

Everyone in the Ichigo crew is going to get either killed or severly injured. Orihime will use her power to negate their deaths/injuries and return them back to Earth...but the price that she will pay for using so much of her strenght will be that she dies.

Since Orihime was given the godlike power, this is the only route to 'keep her in check' for Kubo IMHO.

And when you think about it....a friend dying would really evolve Ichigo. Up until now, every person that they have tried to save was saved.

I see it progressing like Star Wars....LMAO......Ichigo could not save a friend, so he will do anything to protect his remaining companions...that includes going to the 'dark side'...then eventually he will go against the 'Evil Empire' and bring down Aizen.

gigantor21
May 11, 2007, 03:25 PM
He will probably put some sort of restrictions on her powers but the typical shonen way to do is that it will shorten your life etc, etc.

Eh, that's just lame. I really hope he doesn't do that, because most of the characters are dead, anyway. Orihime could just become a kickass Shinigami if her powers killed her, then push to be instated in the Karakura district. I could see her at least become 4th seat with the right training.

I'm sticking with the Hollowfication angle. It'll be much more powerful if Ichigo ends up having to kill her if she uses her powers too much.

Raijatsu
May 11, 2007, 03:30 PM
I don't think she can revive anyone.... Maybe some cells of this female arrancar still lived ^^
I refuse to believe some infinite reviving Dragonball bulls....! Then I want evil shen-longs too! XD

Nafycuk
May 11, 2007, 03:47 PM
Damn Apollo -_- He made Ishida an impotent too -_____-

Well, I guess Ishida Have to draw out his swords ^^ But, anywaym it's veeery bad situation for both of them...

Raijatsu
May 11, 2007, 04:00 PM
Ishida already used a Seele Schneider arrow......
these Arrows are totally useless against Aporro, well he got hit maybe his reishi desintegrate just like they did in Cirucci.. it would be funny if he gets completely absorbed by Ishida ^^

blackenedeath
May 11, 2007, 04:47 PM
I was not a big fan of this chapter at all... Right now its like kubo is digging himself deeper and deeper in a whole. Orihime is now god and Zaero can make anybody useless in no time whatsoever... Hopefully this play ishida has works

Silhouette
May 11, 2007, 06:42 PM
I just wanted to point out a couple of points:

1-Orihime can't revive the dead, only the spoiler said so, but this chapter clearly shows that both Lolli and Menoly weren't dead but severely injured (yeah we were fooled...Kubo sensie never showed them dead...we just assumed it).

2-that talk in the spoiler about GJ telling Orihime to revive the dead because he doesn't want a room full of corpses isn't true either...she did it from the goodness of her heart.



I too was kinda shocked to find that Zaer has already taken measurements against Seele Schneide. So the death squad was probably ordered to move only when a former espada dies to collect data about the weapon causing death. It's probably safe to assume that Sado is safe from the death squad since he was taken care of by Noitora...so Zaer won't considr his power to be a threat.

Ishida has developed from a hateful Quincy stuck up to a more admirable character. Ishida went to SS to prove that Quincies are superior to shinigamis but now he leaves to aid his friends. Ishida is showing more skills and intelligence because he got rid of the revenge ideas that were occupying his mind,which helped his true skills and talent to show.
I hope Chad gets a good development too.

We still don't know what GJ plan is but Orihime has already left with him.

I liked that chapter. Thank you Kubo-sensie....you did it again

naru_naru
May 11, 2007, 06:46 PM
seems like kubo is introducing team battles, as this will be necessary for weaker people to fight the arrancer. there is no way characters like renji, ishida and chad can fight 1v1 against the stronger arrancer, so maybe we are seeing the beginning of the weaker people grouping up to fight a stronger foe. either that or we will have redundant characters during the "big fight" when aizen tries to make the royal key.

kinda disappointed with the orihime bit, was hoping kubo wouldnt take the manga down that path. all-in-all a pointless chapter unfortunately.

Davox
May 11, 2007, 07:56 PM
Didn't it say that Orihime can basically rewind time to the point where something never happened, that pretty much explains her helping menoly and lolli. She just rewound time to the point that they weren't injured, you guys are still looking at Orihime's ability as healing rather than what it is a rejection of events. Plus this is entirely feasible considering she plans on using her power to remove the Hōgyoku from existence

gigantor21
May 11, 2007, 07:58 PM
Well, as I said before--the fact that it's feasible doesn't mean I should agree with it. Regardless of the method, it's still a way to resurrect the dead, and we've seen more than enough of that in DBZ for another series to give it a whirl.

NeoSapien
May 11, 2007, 08:36 PM
Menoli was dead. There's no way that she could have been alive with that little body, and even that amount had probably been restored by Orihime to some degree. It wasn't completely confirmed that Orihime truly resurrected Menoli, but it was strongly implied.

naru_naru
May 11, 2007, 08:47 PM
Didn't it say that Orihime can basically rewind time to the point where something never happened, that pretty much explains her helping menoly and lolli. She just rewound time to the point that they weren't injured, you guys are still looking at Orihime's ability as healing rather than what it is a rejection of events. Plus this is entirely feasible considering she plans on using her power to remove the Hōgyoku from existence

indeed in theory orihime's powers were of space and time distortion within a set environment. however there should be limits to every great power; for example all the parts that need to be reversed in time need to be within the environment orihime can influence. most of the brat that orihime "resurrected" was vaporised, the ability is too overpowered and/or limitless in possibilities. dont get me wrong this isnt a character assassination its just i'd like some consistency in the manga.

to balance the power in that ability kubo will most probably need to put in some (imo stupid) condition for such usage. i hate having conditions for using uber powers because more often then not the mangaka make some really dumb@ss conditions that completely destroy the point of the ability (look at naruto its got so many conditions its got pointless).

and if there are no conditions placed for a uber power it get readers confused due to conditions being placed/used on every other character when they are trying to obtain/use an uber ability (ichigo and his hollow for one).

this is why i didnt want to see kubo take this path in the manga, not because i'm confused as to what orihime's abilities are.

gigantor21
May 11, 2007, 09:40 PM
^I agree on ALL counts.

Crossing this line basically put Kubo in a catch-22; either Orihime's powers will be too strong, or the conditions will defeat the purpose of making them that powerful in the first place, putting us right back where we started. I can easily see it becoming a Rasen-Shuriken type deal, no problem--and it'll take a very contrived twist to allow her to use that much power again if the story calls for it.

Kubo should've just left it alone.

Fortisdiablos
May 11, 2007, 10:18 PM
^I agree on ALL counts.

Crossing this line basically put Kubo in a catch-22; either Orihime's powers will be too strong, or the conditions will defeat the purpose of making them that powerful in the first place, putting us right back where we started. I can easily see it becoming a Rasen-Shuriken type deal, no problem--and it'll take a very contrived twist to allow her to use that much power again if the story calls for it.

Kubo should've just left it alone.

Unless of course....he intends on killing Orihime....

naru_naru
May 11, 2007, 10:30 PM
Unless of course....he intends on killing Orihime....

kubo cant yet. aizen still need orihime. once aizen uses the hougoukou (sp) he wont need her and will kill her; so until then orihime is somewhat safe.

imo thats when orihime will be rescued thus instigating the big showdown. then again how will they get away is kinda unknown cos aizen will be super-aizen and he'll want to test his new powers. then again kubo might write in that aizen needs to train his new abilities, considering how ichigos hollow side is a handful imagen aizens hollow half. so in that time of relative weakness the rescue team might have a chance. bah its all too unpredictable.:eyeroll

Lord Rae
May 11, 2007, 10:51 PM
Unless her trying to reject the Hougoukou is what kills her.

Really its not like we haven't seen her almost resurrect the dead before... Unless you gonna tell me the two Shinigami she saved simultaneously when she was kidnapped only had flesh wounds. Hell half that one guys body or more was gone with a swing of Ulquirra's hand.

blackenedeath
May 11, 2007, 11:46 PM
reading some explanations kind of lightened up this chapter for me, but still as many people have said limits need to be made... And honestly i just want this arc to end very soon, it seems waaaaay tooooo draaaaawn oooouuutttt... The espada's power was pretty well described in karakura town and this arc just basically added on to their strength along with ichigo and co.'s upgrades. But maybe Kubo is still trying to figure this all out and untill he does we will see many more of these drawn out chapters...

Aflean
May 12, 2007, 01:14 AM
P.S.- When did ichigo learn to fly? I just realized that in SS he needed yourichi's items to fly, but come the Arrancars arrival 'Ichigo versus GJ' he can stand/move in mid air like all the other shiningami.

I'm surprised you know all of the previous things you said but cannot understand this. Even while fighting Inoue's brother's Hollow incantation he could put reiatsu underneath his feet to stop himself from falling from the top window, Rukia commented on it.

But doing that and flying is different.

He needed the wing in SS because he needed to fly upwards.

With his new powers he simply stayed in the air with the ability as simple as breathing air, while if he needed to move he would just run in the direction or jump from the air (which is basically a make-shift way of flying anyway).

Koen
May 12, 2007, 07:20 AM
It's awesome to see what inoue can do. Somehow I am getting the feeling she's getting better in it. Inoue certainly isn't useless, she's strong to heal people, better to get destroyed spirits back. And aizen knew this and I can see now why that guy wants inoue

gigantor21
May 12, 2007, 08:57 AM
Unless her trying to reject the Hougoukou is what kills her.

Really its not like we haven't seen her almost resurrect the dead before... Unless you gonna tell me the two Shinigami she saved simultaneously when she was kidnapped only had flesh wounds. Hell half that one guys body or more was gone with a swing of Ulquirra's hand.

Well, considering that Mayuri was able to survive a beach-ball sized hole in his stomach, you could sort of argue for them. It was ridiculous, yeah, but there was a degree of precedent to it (albeit indirectly). But with Menoli, her whole upper body was completely gone, having been incinerated. Just because it was possible to heal her doesn't mean that it isn't ridiculous.

Having Ulquiorra just stab the attendants or something would've made it more believable. There should be limits on what kind of events she can reverse.

naru_naru
May 12, 2007, 11:46 AM
Unless her trying to reject the Hougoukou is what kills her.

Really its not like we haven't seen her almost resurrect the dead before... Unless you gonna tell me the two Shinigami she saved simultaneously when she was kidnapped only had flesh wounds. Hell half that one guys body or more was gone with a swing of Ulquirra's hand.

tbh i had completely forgotten about those two shinigami, although they were severely wounded, they had not been hit by a cero. the damage the cero done to the brat (almost vaporised him) is more greater than the damage uli did to those 2 shinigami.
we see from the image when orihime is "healing" the brat (can never remember his name) his most of his head was gone......the other wound and the hole the shinigami receives from uli seem to be about the same damage. imo the damaged head sealed it for me, thats a major vital spot.

Remus
May 12, 2007, 11:52 AM
It's funny that after so much chapters you still refer to Inoues powers as healing. But she aint healing, she is reverting already happened occasions as Aizen stated. Thus she can as you say "heal" any damage since she is just putting the person,place,whatsoever in a state it was before. Just wanted to get that off my chest.

naru_naru
May 12, 2007, 12:01 PM
It's funny that after so much chapters you still refer to Inoues powers as healing. But she aint healing, she is reverting already happened occasions as Aizen stated. Thus she can as you say "heal" any damage since she is just putting the person,place,whatsoever in a state it was before. Just wanted to get that off my chest.

i wrote a reply to this earlier to the same statement so u might want to read it, kinda pointless repeating stuff.


indeed in theory orihime's powers were of space and time distortion within a set environment. however there should be limits to every great power; for example all the parts that need to be reversed in time need to be within the environment orihime can influence. most of the brat that orihime "resurrected" was vaporised, the ability is too overpowered and/or limitless in possibilities. dont get me wrong this isnt a character assassination its just i'd like some consistency in the manga.

to balance the power in that ability kubo will most probably need to put in some (imo stupid) condition for such usage. i hate having conditions for using uber powers because more often then not the mangaka make some really dumb@ss conditions that completely destroy the point of the ability (look at naruto its got so many conditions its got pointless).

and if there are no conditions placed for a uber power it get readers confused due to conditions being placed/used on every other character when they are trying to obtain/use an uber ability (ichigo and his hollow for one).

this is why i didnt want to see kubo take this path in the manga, not because i'm confused as to what orihime's abilities are.

Remus
May 13, 2007, 10:41 AM
i wrote a reply to this earlier to the same statement so u might want to read it, kinda pointless repeating stuff.

I see. Well I hope you dont take it personally that I dont read every post or lets say just the latest. But nice that you reminded me of your statement.

toyin
May 13, 2007, 04:15 PM
Orihime powers have limits. bascially, the range of the sheild it forms around what she intends rejecting is that limit. She can't just reject a large event that her shield can't cover. (maybe she would require a hell of training to do that not in this present arc).

Zaero pollo can defeat Aizen if he makes a very nice room to prevent aizen from doing any killer move, you see that sucks. He could as well beat up everybody regardless of thier strength if only he mastered them( by just sendiing is frracions first).
[hr]
Probably ishida's glasses is not working too since it has some powers to it. And were the hell is donchakka( can't spell his name) as least we saw infinite slick guy.

naru_naru
May 13, 2007, 07:21 PM
I see. Well I hope you dont take it personally that I dont read every post or lets say just the latest. But nice that you reminded me of your statement.

not at all i just wanted you to know that i have thought thru what i am saying.


Orihime powers have limits. bascially, the range of the sheild it forms around what she intends rejecting is that limit. She can't just reject a large event that her shield can't cover. (maybe she would require a hell of training to do that not in this present arc).

Zaero pollo can defeat Aizen if he makes a very nice room to prevent aizen from doing any killer move, you see that sucks. He could as well beat up everybody regardless of thier strength if only he mastered them( by just sendiing is frracions first)

from the image of orihime healing the brat its clear if orihime as even a small amount of the source item she can "reject" it all better. this defeats the purpose of the size of the environment under her control. the only limiter is that she cant heal multiple ppl cos the barrier of rejection cant spread a large distance......no hold on a sec that aint true cos she can (ch234,pg6); she healed those 2 shinigami simultaneously.

6thangel
May 14, 2007, 01:02 AM
We have no idea what Orihime's limits are since she has yet to reach them. Her powers are pretty amazing though.

toyin
May 14, 2007, 03:58 AM
Orihme: I reject your head Yammi
Yammi: noooo argh!!!!!!!
Orihme: your eyes are next Aizen, and i will give them to Tousen.

dreamzsai
May 14, 2007, 12:57 PM
LoL yea Tousen should ask Orihime to reject the event of him going Blind...
Inoue's powers are really a bit too powerful i must say...and she revive Menoly with such ease....it's just crazy...
Come to think about it, she can actually turn all the arrancars back into hollows if she wants....

Remus
May 15, 2007, 01:59 AM
LoL yea Tousen should ask Orihime to reject the event of him going Blind...
Inoue's powers are really a bit too powerful i must say...and she revive Menoly with such ease....it's just crazy...
Come to think about it, she can actually turn all the arrancars back into hollows if she wants....

Quite a bit too much but she could. But it would take a lot of energy and time. I guess the extremely the event the more energy and the longer it takes.