PDA

View Full Version : Chapter 275 Discussion [Bleach]



sahugani
May 11, 2007, 02:19 PM
The 274 RAW is out HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12607) thanks to Kylara.

Go on and download it then predict for next week's chapter here.

gigantor21
May 11, 2007, 02:29 PM
Well...it looked like another transitional chapter, like last week. We still don't know what happened to Ichigo, who Noritora went after, what Grimmjow wants from Orihime, or what the other Espada are doing. I want to see something on one of those fronts next week, since Renji and Ishida vs. Zaeruapollo doesn't seem like it's going anywhere. Seelen Schneider was just as ineffective as Renji's Bankai, after all, and the new bow was also sealed.

I still think it's a bad move on Kubo's part to allow Orihime to revive people. I already posted my idea for a restriction, though, so I won't go into it again.

(On a side note, I'm protesting the shitty ass official spelling for Zaeruapollo's name. My version is infinitely better than "Szayelaporro".)

blackenedeath
May 11, 2007, 04:52 PM
by the way things are looking...
The death to all of the main characters and an introduction to the new heroes in this manga in future chapters(i'm joking). Its getting to hard to predict anything now...

AzureJahk
May 11, 2007, 05:06 PM
I just finished reading the newest chapter (thanks blood-scans as always) and I just thought, this room where Renji can't use his Bankai and the way Ishidas Seele Schneider and Bow just vanished seems to powerful and useful for Zael-Apollo...unless its his release? The effect to negate any spiritual entity he has analysed/understands perhaps? I hate the idea of Ichigo/Chad/Renji and Ishida getting owned by unreleased Espada, yeah I know the goodies can't always win but they seem to be losing all the time recently. I guess ill have to wait and see how many hundreds of miles im off in Bleach 275.

Also on a complete random prediction that hit me on my way back from college, if Grimmjaw takes Inoue to Hougyoku or anything to that effect I suspect that everything we've seen from recent chapters could be Aizen's Kyouka Suigetsu in effect manipulating Inoue to awaken Hougyoku.

sparkydog
May 11, 2007, 06:11 PM
It looks like a setup to me (renji and ishda). I think Ishda is somehow in partnership with the guy they're fighting... and ishda is going to kill renji.

Didn't ishda's dad say that he is not to ever side with a shinigami again? idk... renji's cool in all.. but he's pretty insignificant to the story right now...


word.

Pollux
May 11, 2007, 06:29 PM
Didn't ishda's dad say that he is not to ever side with a shinigami again?

I think that right now, Renji is more or less like Ichigo as he is not acting under the orders of Soul Society so Ishida must see him as an ally but who knows.

As for the next chapter, I think it will go rather slowly, ending with Zaellapollo being hurt by Ishida and preparing to release. Nothing extraordinary. I do hope we will learn more about Grimmjow's goal with Orihime but I think we will have to wait, seeing how chapter 274 ends.
I don't think Zaellapollo will survive this encounter. He seems too arrogant for someone who relies of tricks such as anti-bankai room and I think this arrogance will be the reason of his defeat.
On the other hand, there are so much things which are left in the dark, as gigantor21 stated, that it is hard to predict anything.

rai-chu
May 11, 2007, 06:43 PM
I agree with gigantor21, the battle between Zaerapollo/what ever is the spelling against Uryuu/Abarai wil go nowhere due to limitations in their powers.

The question now is. What Kubo will answer first in those one of cliff hangers did he left in the past chapters?

I hope to see interesting revelation in the following chpaters.

naru_naru
May 11, 2007, 06:53 PM
not much to predict tbh, we seen what might be a team battle (maybe a trend which will reoccur again in the manga, will stop weaker chars becoming redundant).
the situation the rescue team are in is still the same, kinda disappointed with what happened with orihime, hope it dont become a plot hole later on or maybe it'll be better if it does as it might never occur again.

short term prediction: rescue team somehow survive if ishida and renji win. dont see orihime getting rescued.

long term prediction: dont know, each chapter get more and more confusing in terms of where the manga is heading.

Silhouette
May 11, 2007, 06:53 PM
There are mainly two things to predict...Ishida's plan and GJ's plan.
Ishida still has a pouch full of weapons that Zaer doesn't know about so I guess Ishida's plan will be based on one of these weapons. Just remember that the limitation on Ishida and Renji is only one the powers that Zaer knows about (i.e. bankai and Seele Schnieder). So if Ishida still has more weapons up his sleeve then he can still surprise Zaer and I believe he will.

I still think GJ wants to steal the Hougyoku and join the Vasto Lordes to try to get rid of or kill Aizen.

Fortisdiablos
May 11, 2007, 06:59 PM
People's predictions shouldn't really have changed since last week. ZaelApollo didn't even release...ugh.

This is going to take forever now; I just know it.

gigantor21
May 11, 2007, 07:26 PM
^Agreed. And here we were thinking that the arc would end soon after Rukia vs. A'Roniro. So much for that, huh?

I'm with blackenedeath--Bleach hasn't been amenable to predictions fpr a while. I just hope Kubo attends to something else next week.

ANBU4U
May 11, 2007, 08:59 PM
It looks like a setup to me (renji and ishda). I think Ishda is somehow in partnership with the guy they're fighting... and ishda is going to kill renji.

Didn't ishda's dad say that he is not to ever side with a shinigami again? idk... renji's cool in all.. but he's pretty insignificant to the story right now...


word.

Renji rocks. chad and Orihime needs better character development.

What the heck are they anyway? Just humans mutated my Ichigo's runoff reiatsu?

EDIT:

Character Devekopment huh? More like a new concept all together...

Athena
May 11, 2007, 09:29 PM
well it seems I’m the only one here who likes this arc. i don't want it to finish. sure it had its annoying moments (the Jesus-orihime and uloquierra's rank) but i loved almost every single chapter in this arc. orihime got so much power out of nowhere which is mainly due to people's complaints; that she is utterly useless (ino of bleach- well maybe not that annoying but pretty close for some) so they decided to give her a bigger role by giving her the resurrection power(?)

I just want to know what happened to ichigo, i don't care about other characters that much but ichigo is different. He has been humiliated enough for a long time.

gigantor21
May 11, 2007, 09:43 PM
^I agree on Ichigo. In fact, I'm hoping that Kubo set things up like that in the Ulquiorra fight so Ichigo won't get the chance to fight again until after he trains more. That'd be a perfect was to recify the shitload of losses he's suffered since the SS-Arc ended--and that's what I really want to see out of him.

Fortisdiablos
May 11, 2007, 10:07 PM
I demand satisfaction!!

Wait...let me rephrase that...

I predict satisfaction!!

naru_naru
May 11, 2007, 10:42 PM
Renji rocks. chad and Orihime needs better character development

What the heck are they anyway? Just humans mutated my Ichigo's runoff reiatsu?


i agree with orihime character development; its some dire writing we are witnessing atm (still not as bad as how sakura was written in part 1 of naruto :p).

in terms of chad there is some hope, he developed a new arm; an attacking one. i am hoping to see some serious hollow techs from chad in the near future after he gets more training. hopefully we should see chad performing all ranges of hollow techs including cero-type attacks. if chad pairs up with ishida or renji, imo, will make a soild attack defence against some of the stronger enemies.

renji's got alot ahead of him; he still has not mastered his bankai so we should be seeing more techs from renji.

i think ichigos reiatsu just awakened chad's and orihime's abilities, much like rukias acted like a catalyst to awaken ichigos.

funnieebunniie
May 12, 2007, 03:50 AM
wait so the spoilers for ch 274 was wrong? cuz grimmjow didnt tell inoue to revive those girls but inoue did it on her own free will. he just told her to heal her messed up face.
right??

gigantor21
May 12, 2007, 08:34 AM
^Yeah, that was wrong. But the informant didn't have the issue on them when they wrote it, so that may be why.

ANBU4U - I love them both, but you're right. Kubo needs to not only develop them more, but explain their powers in more detail. As of late, they're the only 2 people who have powers outside of the 3 official categories (Shinigami, Quincy, Hollow) that aren't Hybrids. Are there other people like that? Is it different for everyone? And why haven't Tatsuki and Keigo gotten powers yet?

Kubo has a lot of explaining to do. To be honest, I don't think we're going to get much.

ForteAnly
May 12, 2007, 03:35 PM
^Yeah, that was wrong. But the informant didn't have the issue on them when they wrote it, so that may be why.

ANBU4U - I love them both, but you're right. Kubo needs to not only develop them more, but explain their powers in more detail. As of late, they're the only 2 people who have powers outside of the 3 official categories (Shinigami, Quincy, Hollow) that aren't Hybrids. Are there other people like that? Is it different for everyone? And why haven't Tatsuki and Keigo gotten powers yet?

Kubo has a lot of explaining to do. To be honest, I don't think we're going to get much.

It could be that Keigo and Tatsuki aren't meant to develop powers like Orihime and Sado. Maybe they aren't to close to Ichigo so they could suck up more of his large reiatsu.

yanniv
May 12, 2007, 04:52 PM
I just want to see where the hell Noitora is. Did Kubo forget about him? lol.

Is 275 going to be a colored page?

gigantor21
May 12, 2007, 07:31 PM
^I don't know. Where'd you hear there'd be color? Could you provide a link?

And seeing who Noritora went after would be great. But I don't even know if Kubo's sure who to put there yet.

yanniv
May 12, 2007, 10:27 PM
^I don't know. Where'd you hear there'd be color? Could you provide a link?

And seeing who Noritora went after would be great. But I don't even know if Kubo's sure who to put there yet.

Didn't it say on one of the jumps that starting every 5 chapters he (Kubo) would start the week off with a color page?

Mendes
May 12, 2007, 11:52 PM
I've only started reading bleach manga much later than the anime... but it seems to me that the manga develops too slowly... there's almost no dialogue either :/ so i think the next chapter will be only dedicated to ichida's plan. He seems to have a plan from the start, so i wonder if he's including renji in his calculations. He will most likely show a new move, since every other has been studied by the opposing arrancar.
I also wonder when will we see what exactly are Chad and Orihime... the firsts arm of the devil is amazing. Its strange that such a good person like him, that only fights to protect another, has an arm like that.
I also wonder about orihime. Its not just her unbelievable coup size, she apparently can reverse time to return things to their original state? wtf? Thats amazing. And if we consider that her healing power is fully developed, she will eventually develop her other skills to the same level. The barrier and the atack dude (dunt remember the name of that 'thing') will get stronger eventually, and she'll be something to be reckoned with... i think

ShinobiWrath
May 13, 2007, 12:54 AM
I've only started reading bleach manga much later than the anime... but it seems to me that the manga develops too slowly... there's almost no dialogue either :/ so i think the next chapter will be only dedicated to ichida's plan. He seems to have a plan from the start, so i wonder if he's including renji in his calculations. He will most likely show a new move, since every other has been studied by the opposing arrancar.
I also wonder when will we see what exactly are Chad and Orihime... the firsts arm of the devil is amazing. Its strange that such a good person like him, that only fights to protect another, has an arm like that.
I also wonder about orihime. Its not just her unbelievable coup size, she apparently can reverse time to return things to their original state? wtf? Thats amazing. And if we consider that her healing power is fully developed, she will eventually develop her other skills to the same level. The barrier and the atack dude (dunt remember the name of that 'thing') will get stronger eventually, and she'll be something to be reckoned with... i think

Yeah I used to Think orihime was useless too but Kubo has a way of making a completely useless Character an amazing one in our eyes. As For GrimmJow and Orihime, I Figured GrimmJow would Hold Orihime against her will and Approach Aizen Threatening to kill her unless He relinquished the Hougyokku (SP?). It's then he will run off With orihime once Aizen has given it up Orihime will Restore it and GrimmJow will Harness its power and he will be a constriction in Aizen's Gut. Of course Aizen isn't so dumb as opposed to GrimmJow whose only thrill is in the rage of War and Battle so the outcome will be much different.

ANBU4U
May 13, 2007, 02:03 AM
Yeah I used to Think orihime was useless too but Kubo has a way of making a completely useless Character an amazing one in our eyes. As For GrimmJow and Orihime, I Figured GrimmJow would Hold Orihime against her will and Approach Aizen Threatening to kill her unless He relinquished the Hougyokku (SP?). It's then he will run off With orihime once Aizen has given it up Orihime will Restore it and GrimmJow will Harness its power and he will be a constriction in Aizen's Gut. Of course Aizen isn't so dumb as opposed to GrimmJow whose only thrill is in the rage of War and Battle so the outcome will be much different.

All the new powers did was seal her fate.

She'll even have her powers reigned in by some senseless limiter for example.....she can only ressurect someone after a day since they died.....making her annoying again. Or she'll be killed off.

yanniv
May 13, 2007, 02:12 AM
All the new powers did was seal her fate.

She'll even have her powers reigned in by some senseless limiter for example.....she can only ressurect someone after a day since they died.....making her annoying again. Or she'll be killed off.

Hopefully killed off. Her powers are just way too much to not be the main character of Bleach.

I'm curious if she can reject people's entire life. You could say peace to the whole entire Arrancar army if that is true.

Ava
May 13, 2007, 02:19 AM
As others have already said, it seems that Ishida's plan is going to be the main part of next week's chapter, whether we like it or not. However, I think it will somehow involve Nell's two stupid brothers for a change. :D It would be fun to see Zael defeated by Peshe's infinite slick and whatever trick the other guy has. We might see some Grimmjow & Orihime as well, but nothing revealing, imo.

I don't think we'll be getting any Ichigo in the next chapter, but I have to admit that I'm really curios what's happening to him. It just stroke me that he still has Nell with him and as you all know she has healing abilities, so a natural development would be for her to help him recover. Still, that's not what that dark aura indicates. Well, I guess I just have to wait and see.


I'm curious if she can reject people's entire life. You could say peace to the whole entire Arrancar army if that is true.

I don't think she would ever do that, even if she had the ability. Orihime is not able to hurt a fly, she even resurrected those bitches on her own free will. She is simply not able to kill anything that has a human face. I think she still has awful nightmares about that hollow she killed when she first discovered her abilities. :p

Leonardo
May 13, 2007, 08:08 AM
Ichigo will need Nell´s help to recover, too bad she was unconcious at the end of the fight. I also thought that dark aura would be some sort of power up, but that was just his power fading, as some people pointed out. Too much time has passed Ulq is not even there anymore.
Thinking back, if Ichigo won that fight, he would be able to beat GJ easily, so it does make sense him losing to Ulq. I actually think Ichigo will still beat GJ on this arc, before he becomes too powerful for him. It just is convenient that Orihime is with him, so I think the rescue still has (a slim) chance of success, I just don´t think it´s like them to give up (it´s weird thinking a dialog "hey, let´s get outta here"), unless someone dragged them out of there (like Urahara or Yoruichi).
About Orihime´s power, considering its nature, I think she cannot reverse events that had too much influence in the past. For example, if she rejected Hougyoku, as I see it, it would be like it never existed, but all the events of SS arc revolved around Hougyoku, she would be denying them too. Aizen said that Hougyoku had weakened after successful awakenings, perhaps if she tried to deny all she would do was restore it to before it weakened. She would never do it if Aizen asked, but say, if Ichigo rescued her she would try to deny it, actually restoring it. If she just happened to lose her powers for using them beyond her limit, it would just be even more convenient...

Boogymanx
May 13, 2007, 09:01 AM
It could be that Keigo and Tatsuki aren't meant to develop powers like Orihime and Sado. Maybe they aren't to close to Ichigo so they could suck up more of his large reiatsu.

Orihime got to know Ichigo through Tatsuki, Tatsuki and him were best friends when they were kids.

Leonardo
May 13, 2007, 09:35 AM
Ops, I reread the post and I meant successive awakenings, not succesful... sorry.

sKaR
May 13, 2007, 12:05 PM
i think ishida n renji will try wit sum weak attempt to get zael but fail.they r hopelessly outnumbered.but who knows wich other espada might turn up.they might just end up retreating.as for grimmjow i think he mite let orihime go.Or mite b sum cool plan to get hyokuga fer himself.wat i dont understand is if orihime can repel y cant she use it in a really destructive sense to just take life away.sorta cauz sum 1 to just disintegrate in to thin air[like the sandman in spidey3 :-)]

toyin
May 13, 2007, 04:11 PM
Orihime powers have limits. bascially, the range of the sheild it forms around what she intends rejecting is that limit. She can't just reject a large event that her shield can't cover. (maybe she would require a hell of training to do that not in this present arc).

Zaero pollo can defeat Aizen if he makes a very nice room to prevent aizen from doing any killer move, you see that sucks. He could as well beat up everybody regardless of thier strength if only he mastered them( by just sendiing is frracions first).

Back to the topic: i think the crest on ishida's chest means something may be if he places his bow there he turn to a (suppersiay).

Mendes
May 13, 2007, 06:13 PM
All the new powers did was seal her fate.

She'll even have her powers reigned in by some senseless limiter for example.....she can only ressurect someone after a day since they died.....making her annoying again. Or she'll be killed off.


Orihime powers have limits. bascially, the range of the sheild it forms around what she intends rejecting is that limit. She can't just reject a large event that her shield can't cover. (maybe she would require a hell of training to do that not in this present arc).

Well of course her powers are limited... but she's still a god among insects... not even the shinigami captain that is knows by her healing abilities (cant recall her name) can do something like bringing someone back to life! '...she can only ressurect someone after a day since they died...' lol... arent you being unfair... that's just awesome. She must be some kind of god!

sharingan_kakashi
May 14, 2007, 12:37 AM
The limit to her power is her will. remember when she attacked that bug guy in SS arc and tsubaki got hurt, it siad the attack was "half-hearted", she can only do a good job if she really wants to do it.
PLUS she just suck as a fighter and a lot of people can kill her. "healing" is worth nothing if ur dead.

Vegetoacs
May 14, 2007, 02:09 AM
I think a few people are misunderstanding why Orihime's powers currently pose a problem for the story. The major problem with introducing a preventative measure to death is that it will ultimatly detract from the story. Think about it for a moment. Would any battle be as awesome or climactic if there was no chance of death? As far as we've seen, the bleach characters so far have been nearly immortal anyway XD

They're been stabbed, slashed, blasted...heck, byakuya's bankai effectivly turned renji to mince meat...So is it not a problem if that despite all this, suddenly orihime can bring back just about anything?

Everyone here has likened it to dragonball's dragon revival scheme. It basically meant that people could just simply die and then be revived. Granted, DBZ had a heaven of sorts and that explained it to a degree....in this situation, they're already in heaven of sorts, and disintergrate into spirtons when their spirit body dies.....so it's probably a different scenario XD

It is possible that menoli wasn't totally disintergrated...or perhaps the blast simply left her bits and pieces lieing all over the place, and orihime reconstructed from that...although even that's pushing it. I agreed with gigantor when he said that she should have tried to heal menolli but been unable to.

For now, based upon our best understanding of what just happened...we can assume she did indeed resurrect menoli. That being the case, some serious reigning in of her powers needs to occur. Also, a few people still seem to think she's healing. Remember that she's not healing them as such, rather rejecting the event that befell upon the object or person in question, hence why she was able to "heal" grimmjaw's arm in the first place. This could also potentially be a plot hole...but it seems to have been given far too much prominence to be just that. Extent and range of power has always been somewhat difficult to grasp in bleach, given that the only indication we're ever really given is that they're either about even or one completely overpowers the other. On that basis alone, it's difficult to garter what orihime is truely capable of, precedented soley on one instance.

It might just be a lot like cold fusion...might kinda work in theory on rare occasions given the perfect conditions XD

In any case, we're now left with ishida and renji fighting off zael, hopefully with a plan that will probably result in the seal on renji being lifted. I still have no idea why zael was able to resist something that ishida refered to as a spirt chainsaw....unless his reiratsu is supposed to be so immensely dense that is cant cut.....but again, it pierced zael's throat...Urgh, i'm probably thinking about this too much.

Failing more on ishida's revelation, we'll most likely see Orihime, or something new.

yanniv
May 14, 2007, 02:54 AM
I believe Grimmjow is using Orihime to heal Aaroniero back to health. I can't think of anything else, and I would think it would come as a great surprised to many of the viewers.

toyin
May 14, 2007, 04:01 AM
Probably yes yanniv but to suck is power for his on benefit not just to be a good guy. Because i think if ichigo blasted GJ with that blast he gave Ulq, Gj might have lost.
[hr]
I zaero polo will be defeated and ishida and renji will go back to save chad and rukia, and find out that there bodies are gone. Then ishida father will force him to go back and Urahana will force renji too. Ichigo dad will take care of ichigo since he is unconsicous. end of arc.

darentm
May 14, 2007, 06:43 AM
I believe Grimmjow is using Orihime to heal Aaroniero back to health. I can't think of anything else, and I would think it would come as a great surprised to many of the viewers.

Why would he bother? GJ is definately not the "comrade" type that would look out for his buddies.
He must be after Ichigo.............

gigantor21
May 14, 2007, 09:12 AM
^ About Ichigo...what's the point?

Grimmjow knows that he'd kick his ass, now that he has both arms. All he'd have to do is wait the mask out, or release straight away and steamroll him. A rematch with Grimmjow would be just as futile as the Ulquiorra match was, only in a flashier way.

So I'll pass.

Fortisdiablos
May 14, 2007, 05:02 PM
^ About Ichigo...what's the point?

Grimmjow knows that he'd kick his ass, now that he has both arms. All he'd have to do is wait the mask out, or release straight away and steamroll him. A rematch with Grimmjow would be just as futile as the Ulquiorra match was, only in a flashier way.

So I'll pass.

Who doesn't like flashy?

:-D

ANBU4U
May 14, 2007, 09:28 PM
I believe Grimmjow is using Orihime to heal Aaroniero back to health. I can't think of anything else, and I would think it would come as a great surprised to many of the viewers.

You mean bring him back to life...because both of his little heads split in two and disentergrated. If she can do that then kubo's officially writin her death certificate.

notBowen
May 14, 2007, 11:03 PM
You mean bring him back to life...because both of his little heads split in two and disentergrated. If she can do that then kubo's officially writin her death certificate.
Conceivably given what we've just seen she could do it, I just hope to God she doesn't.

yanniv
May 15, 2007, 01:29 AM
You mean bring him back to life...because both of his little heads split in two and disentergrated. If she can do that then kubo's officially writin her death certificate.

Yeah, I meant bring him back to life.

It isn't too far fetched considering what just happened in 274. Time will tell.

jinbus
May 15, 2007, 01:46 AM
Orihime needs to reject her existence so that Bleach can return to a reasonable plot about monsters and magics

btn2k3
May 15, 2007, 03:23 AM
Chapter 274 isn't the first time Orihime has revived someone after they were killed.

Back when Uri gave Orihime the ultimatum to either go to HM or watch Ichigo and the Shinigami's die. He killed the 2 Shinigami's that were escorting her, while giving the ultimatum...

She rejected there deaths and they reported back to the commander that she reached earth safely.
It seems she took them back far enough that they did not remember Uri attacking them.

Now Loli probably doesn't remember anything from being blasted into obilivion by GJ.
But Monoli who watched the restoration of Loli was/is scared shitless of what Orihime can do.
(hmm I wonder if I got there names mixed up).

Now a question that needs to be answered is this.
If Orihime rejected GJ to the point prior to having the Hoguku used on him and then rejected the Hoguku to back to a time of its strongest state and then it's used on GJ would he become stronger?

darentm
May 15, 2007, 06:54 AM
it annoys me that she is so powerful, she seriously needs a limit!

naru_naru
May 15, 2007, 08:03 AM
Chapter 274 isn't the first time Orihime has revived someone after they were killed.

Back when Uri gave Orihime the ultimatum to either go to HM or watch Ichigo and the Shinigami's die. He killed the 2 Shinigami's that were escorting her, while giving the ultimatum...

She rejected there deaths and they reported back to the commander that she reached earth safely.
It seems she took them back far enough that they did not remember Uri attacking them.

Now Loli probably doesn't remember anything from being blasted into obilivion by GJ.
But Monoli who watched the restoration of Loli was/is scared shitless of what Orihime can do.
(hmm I wonder if I got there names mixed up).

Now a question that needs to be answered is this.
If Orihime rejected GJ to the point prior to having the Hoguku used on him and then rejected the Hoguku to back to a time of its strongest state and then it's used on GJ would he become stronger?

it is unknown if those two shinigami were killed, severly wounded? yes, but dead? unknown; Uli just says "you can heal them even when they are this damaged? you have quiet a talent there woman". the brat was hit by a cero there was no doubt he was dead; but not just that most of his body had been disintegrated.


the hoguku is used to access the reiatsu that has been locked due to the soul after they die. if the soul becomes a shinigami the hollow half is destroyed/locked away. if the soul becomes a hollow it loses the shinigami half.
not exactly sure the processes involved for using hoguku but dosnt give power as such but awakens the hollows shinigami side. therefore the power will be relative to the hollow it is used on, if the hollow is weak the shinigami half will also be weak, if the hollow is strong the shinigami side will also be strong. i'm not explaining my self well but i hope you understand. also aizen cant use the hoguku on himself as he uses his own reiatsu to awaken it when he uses it on the hollows. although there is no proof its my opinion that aizen needs to power it throughout the whole process.


it would have been better to give orihime more abilities rather than one that is overpowered.

Remus
May 15, 2007, 08:34 AM
it is unknown if those two shinigami were killed, severly wounded? yes, but dead? unknown; Uli just says "you can heal them even when they are this damaged? you have quiet a talent there woman". the brat was hit by a cero there was no doubt he was dead; but not just that most of his body had been disintegrated.


the hoguku is used to access the reiatsu that has been locked due to the soul after they die. if the soul becomes a shinigami the hollow half is destroyed/locked away. if the soul becomes a hollow it loses the shinigami half.
not exactly sure the processes involved for using hoguku but dosnt give power as such but awakens the hollows shinigami side. therefore the power will be relative to the hollow it is used on, if the hollow is weak the shinigami half will also be weak, if the hollow is strong the shinigami side will also be strong. i'm not explaining my self well but i hope you understand. also aizen cant use the hoguku on himself as he uses his own reiatsu to awaken it when he uses it on the hollows. although there is no proof its my opinion that aizen needs to power it throughout the whole process.


it would have been better to give orihime more abilities rather than one that is overpowered.

The complete functionality of the hougokyou hasnt been explained so far. Or does there exist some Databook explaining it ?
I wonder where you got these nice explanations then ? Could be true but there is no evidence and Aizen never said he cant use it on himself. The reason he needs his reiatsu to awaken it, is that its not fully awakened so far.

Yamazuya
May 15, 2007, 08:38 AM
the hoguku is used to access the reiatsu that has been locked due to the soul after they die. if the soul becomes a shinigami the hollow half is destroyed/locked away. if the soul becomes a hollow it loses the shinigami half.
not exactly sure the processes involved for using hoguku but dosnt give power as such but awakens the hollows shinigami side. therefore the power will be relative to the hollow it is used on, if the hollow is weak the shinigami half will also be weak, if the hollow is strong the shinigami side will also be strong. i'm not explaining my self well but i hope you understand. also aizen cant use the hoguku on himself as he uses his own reiatsu to awaken it when he uses it on the hollows. although there is no proof its my opinion that aizen needs to power it throughout the whole process.


it would have been better to give orihime more abilities rather than one that is overpowered.

Although I do get what you mean, didn't Aizen say that, for a Shinigami who has reached the utmost limit of his powers, the only way to evolve is to use his hollow side? So not only does Aizen want to create a royal key but he also wants to become strong via hollow powers so I guess he needs to use the hougokyou on himself at some point.

I just hope that GJ and Orihime are intercepted by SOMEONE before reaching their target, whoever/whatever it may be.

jinbus
May 15, 2007, 09:06 AM
one interesting things I've re-noticed while watching the last episode of the anime:
Apparently Shirosaki tells Ichigo "If you want to control my power, try not to die before we meet again" Which I guess implies that the vaizard form Ichigo has been using is an underpowered version, similar to his first zanpakuto almost.

ANBU4U
May 15, 2007, 03:49 PM
one interesting things I've re-noticed while watching the last episode of the anime:
Apparently Shirosaki tells Ichigo "If you want to control my power, try not to die before we meet again" Which I guess implies that the vaizard form Ichigo has been using is an underpowered version, similar to his first zanpakuto almost.

A valid assumption, I wouldnt be suprised. It likely has something to do with why he cant hold his mask for longer...or use cero.

gigantor21
May 15, 2007, 04:20 PM
^ I think that he just can't use Cero because no one's taught him how yet, but I agree. Shirosaki is the key to making the mask more useful.

It'd be nice if we got an update on Ichigo's status next week, along with the others. Kubo can't focus on the GJ and Apollo fronts three chapters in a row.

Gulio
May 15, 2007, 05:28 PM
Sooo... couldn't all the Espada release and kill Aizen if he hasn't used the Hoguku on himself? It seems that once they release they'd be stronger than he is.

5enbonzakur4
May 15, 2007, 05:39 PM
the espada want power as is evident by people like noritora (?) and zael. aizen can give it to them.

as far as ichigo goes... 'the king [has been] knocked from his horse'

we are going to see some of the best ownage in the entire series...

blackenedeath
May 15, 2007, 06:31 PM
well i am ready for this ownage ur talking about^... i think everyone losing has been set to overkill...
But i would also like to see some devolopment in the story rather than more unanswered questions and constant fighting that always has the good guys always losing...
And there has to be some extreme explaination on Orihime's powers and some limits taken place...

ANBU4U
May 15, 2007, 09:01 PM
^ I think that he just can't use Cero because no one's taught him how yet, but I agree. Shirosaki is the key to making the mask more useful.

It'd be nice if we got an update on Ichigo's status next week, along with the others. Kubo can't focus on the GJ and Apollo fronts three chapters in a row.

Ogichi would teach him............

Its like how he couldnt use Getsuga Tenshou until Zangetsu taught him.
[hr]

the espada want power as is evident by people like noritora (?) and zael. aizen can give it to them.

as far as ichigo goes... 'the king [has been] knocked from his horse'

we are going to see some of the best ownage in the entire series...

No we arnt.

gigantor21
May 15, 2007, 09:49 PM
Sooo... couldn't all the Espada release and kill Aizen if he hasn't used the Hoguku on himself? It seems that once they release they'd be stronger than he is.

With Kyoka Suigetsu's hypnosis, and the power to stop a Bankai with one finger, that seems very unlikely. And lord knows what kind of ridiculous powers his own Bankai has, if he is forced to use it. I'm sure he'd be fine, Hollowfied or not--they wouldn't follow his orders if they knew a bum rush would be enough to kill him.

btn2k3
May 16, 2007, 01:29 AM
If the King has fallen off of his horse then Ichigo may get pulled back into his "soul plain". If that happens his body would probably transform into the hollow form again while Hollow Ichigo and Ichigo go at it one more time.

Ironicly if that happened and GJ (with Orihime in tow) come across Ichigo while he's fighting his hollow. They would probably come across him in his hollowized form....
Then again Aizen may want to capture Ichigo while he's hollowized (to try the Hoguku on a Vizard).

Then again I could just be off in left field.

Evil Mind
May 17, 2007, 03:55 PM
Simply losing a fight will not draw out Hollow Ichigo, as Hollow Ichigo said "don't die before we meet again".

I think Hollow Ichigo will only trouble Ichigo if he has some emotional issues and not phyical ones.

big_p
May 17, 2007, 05:26 PM
but losing here is an emotional issue. no win = no orihime rescue.

i dont see him taking that lightly.

predict - szaelaporro just wont die.

toyin
May 18, 2007, 04:09 AM
Szaela pollo will own Renji, but ishida is a tough and strange he might find probelm with him. After all when others were playing Ishida was training with the absolute right person he neeeded to advance(his Popsi).

Quincy powers don't have specfic limits like shinigami(bankai, Kidou) at this present time in bleach, so expect anything from Ishida in this fight.

gigantor21
May 18, 2007, 08:54 AM
^That's true, but it's the same thing for Ichigo, Chad and Orihime--even if they have limitless potential, Kubo can't just tap into it whenever he wants. Ishida just started using Seelen Schneider and the new bow in this arc, so it's too soon for Ishida to level-up again.

And I don't want him to just level up here, to be frank. I want to see something more cerebral.

Da-manta-ray
May 18, 2007, 09:26 AM
well, there was this weird flash of black after ichigo died of sorts... and if you remember Shirosaki (inner hollow dude) saying that if Ichigo messes up, he'll trample on him...

So maybe we'll get another inner hollow appearance :)

ShinobiWrath
May 18, 2007, 01:11 PM
^That's true, but it's the same thing for Ichigo, Chad and Orihime--even if they have limitless potential, Kubo can't just tap into it whenever he wants. Ishida just started using Seelen Schneider and the new bow in this arc, so it's too soon for Ishida to level-up again.

And I don't want him to just level up here, to be frank. I want to see something more cerebral.

Agreed, and what's more he just got his abilities back which would probably be pushing it if he was to level up.

gigantor21
May 18, 2007, 03:10 PM
What the hell was that!?

How did Renji go from being terrible at Kidou and not being able to touch Apollo, to being able to trap him in Shikai Zabimaru long enough for the full Shakka Hou spell AND expository dialouge? Why did none of his Fraccion help him? Since when could several Seelen Schneider be used cumulatively? And why weren't any of them suppressed if the first one was?

I swear to God, if there isn't a shit-load of stuff I missed without a translation, then this may be the worst fight in the entire series.

Kyuubi_no_Gaki
May 18, 2007, 03:20 PM
@gigantor:

1- Renji managed to do that because the worry of being harmed by his enemy had disappeared. It was a kamikaze strike quite obviously. Hence also the surprise in Apollo's expression.

2- Renji has had his Shikai for ages. He has mastered Zabimaru's initial form to it's largest extent so forcing it into any certain shape would be no problem whatsoever and since it can extend and tighten, the binding thing would be no problem.

3- The speech is exactly what you would expect from ANY manga. The opponent's caught off guard causing him to be able to respond in no way other than twitching and sharply breathing with strain lolz.

4- Ishida had a different form of Schneider sealed. Apollo only saw the bow and arrow form. Thus he wasn't able to seal it this time because the composition and form were different. Had he tried to shoot that quincy cross with arrows, we'd be singing a very "l0lz pwn't" tune right now lol!

EDIT: Sorry if I sound condescending, I don't mean to...

ForteAnly
May 18, 2007, 03:45 PM
Good chapter but I don't think that Szayel Apollo is done with yet not until he realeses at least but who knows maybe he dies before releasing his sword.

Raijatsu
May 18, 2007, 04:48 PM
would be nice if he dies before releasing... all this "near defeat-release" cycle is boring....
this would really surprise me ^^

blackenedeath
May 18, 2007, 05:31 PM
i just hope he's dead so this battle could end... if he does release etc. i hope it doesnt any more that one chapter, but its gotten to the point where i dont care if he releases or not...

notBowen
May 18, 2007, 05:59 PM
@gigantor:

1- Renji managed to do that because the worry of being harmed by his enemy had disappeared. It was a kamikaze strike quite obviously. Hence also the surprise in Apollo's expression.

2- Renji has had his Shikai for ages. He has mastered Zabimaru's initial form to it's largest extent so forcing it into any certain shape would be no problem whatsoever and since it can extend and tighten, the binding thing would be no problem.

3- The speech is exactly what you would expect from ANY manga. The opponent's caught off guard causing him to be able to respond in no way other than twitching and sharply breathing with strain lolz.

4- Ishida had a different form of Schneider sealed. Apollo only saw the bow and arrow form. Thus he wasn't able to seal it this time because the composition and form were different. Had he tried to shoot that quincy cross with arrows, we'd be singing a very "l0lz pwn't" tune right now lol!

EDIT: Sorry if I sound condescending, I don't mean to... I'd agree with all this. Also from the rough trans we see Apollo told all his henchman to hold off.

gigantor21
May 18, 2007, 06:34 PM
@gigantor:

1- Renji managed to do that because the worry of being harmed by his enemy had disappeared. It was a kamikaze strike quite obviously. Hence also the surprise in Apollo's expression.

2- Renji has had his Shikai for ages. He has mastered Zabimaru's initial form to it's largest extent so forcing it into any certain shape would be no problem whatsoever and since it can extend and tighten, the binding thing would be no problem.

3- The speech is exactly what you would expect from ANY manga. The opponent's caught off guard causing him to be able to respond in no way other than twitching and sharply breathing with strain lolz.

4- Ishida had a different form of Schneider sealed. Apollo only saw the bow and arrow form. Thus he wasn't able to seal it this time because the composition and form were different. Had he tried to shoot that quincy cross with arrows, we'd be singing a very "l0lz pwn't" tune right now lol!

EDIT: Sorry if I sound condescending, I don't mean to...

No, don't worry about it. I reacted too strongly, anyway. But...

1 - I don't see how that's suddenly supposed to let him hurt Apollo now. Kubo didn't do any kind of foreshadowing or set-up for a kamikaze attack--each time he cut back to the fight, Renji's ass was kicked more thoroughly. Not only that, but Renji's supposed to suck at Kidou in the first place. It would've made sense if it had just been a smokescreen which did minimal damage, but Apollo got torched. That's what I didn't get.

2 - Renji being able to use Zabimaru as a bind didn't bother me--he did that to stop Byakuya's Shikai during their fight in the SS-Arc. What I don't get is how that actually held against Zael, who casually broke off a part of Zabimaru after dodging it and only got hurt once. Kubo never even implied that the extending part was sturdier than the actual blade.

3 - Yeah, probably. *sigh*

4 - Again, there's a pacing issue--Ishida went from being weaponless to BBQing Apollo's ass way too fast. We didn't get the same brilliant setup and exposition for this technique as we did for Seelen Schneider. I think Kubo's trying way too hard to make up for how he stretched the fight before Ishida showed up. He could've addressing the other 3-4 subplots, instead, so I don't get why he went with this.

Silhouette
May 18, 2007, 07:11 PM
This chapter is awesome. Red and White became my favorite team.

To hell with the "a shinigami must not get involved in another shinigami's battle". Ichigo and co should start fighting in groups rather than individually

Lord Rae
May 18, 2007, 07:54 PM
After reading the translation and seeing the chapter in full I realize why the Kidou worked when it otherwise shouldn't have... Its brilliant writting using Renji's lack of Kidou talent as a bonus for hurting the opponent with an out of control power. Since Renji can't control it its best to go along with it and use what you can.

To summarize this was gonna be a lame chapter... but after seeing the whole thing its one of my favorites. Although I'm pretty sure that Zael isn't dead... we'll probably see a release and god knows what else... But this was a fantastic chapter.

Absolutio
May 18, 2007, 08:05 PM
yea, zael is probably still alive. espada are supposed to be STRONG, and he didnt do a thing at this fight, but being dumb. We even havent seen his release.. =O

Lohnt
May 18, 2007, 10:07 PM
This is probably my favorite Shonen chapter in the last 10 years. Teamwork for the mothaf%^kin win!

Anyone who is complaining about the "physics of the victory being whack" is wrong. I'm sorry, but you're wrong, and here's why:
Renji's Kidou is imperfect, that doesn't mean it is innefective. Muskets used to fire a very spread out fire that would more often than not miss and since reload was so long not be worth it half the time. That's why you could still fight them with a sword.
However, if you fired one from point blank, well GOD DAMN your opponent's ass would be on the floor because you just exploded their face off.

Ishida's plan required time, it is a plan that would normally be impossible to pull off during a fight since Ishida lacks "smoke screens"/20 second distractions in his arsenal. By having Renji distract him, he could change the shape of his attack in any way he wanted, and Zael couldn't predict it.

red and white, the great wine colors, best chapter ever.

notBowen
May 19, 2007, 06:52 AM
This is probably my favorite Shonen chapter in the last 10 years. Dude, what?

ttxdragon
May 19, 2007, 07:13 AM
Complains about this Chapter? None. Although the peshe-part was a tad bit too long for my taste >.>

This chapter is nearly all you can ask from a shounen - enough fight, little talk although it's there (that's just one thing you can't get out of shounen if it ain't d.gray-man XD), the battle was kinda realistic in terms of the manga.

I mean, only because there was no mega-upgrade how chad got one, it got new attack-styles.
New attack styles are far more worth it than a mega-upgrade imho.
I can understand that you don't believe how easy gratz was "caught", but i didn't expect him to do much.... he even said he wanted to wait on wth happens. Furthermore he saw how renji isn't good in close combat and is really confident in his close combat skills.
So why not take a risk if you are superior? Don't think in "What would objectively be the best choice" but in "What would be in character" on that one. Espada were all shown as overconfident and scientists are usually the ones who are the worst on that point.

from a shounen point of view, this is one totally awesome chapter.

Remus
May 19, 2007, 10:05 AM
Didn't Renji said he sucked at Kidou becaue he cant control the amount of energy used ? Well if that's the case then there is no need to. Simply use all you got and blow the ass away. Worked quite well. As for Grantz he is finished. He said it before, he is the weakest among the Espada and his fight mostly depends on his researches etc. If he wouldnt had sealed Renjis Bankai, Renji would have let his sword eat Grantz. But as many said before, great chapter and the team work was great indeed.

juUnior
May 19, 2007, 01:02 PM
Cool chapter. Awesome action! :D
Renji had cool swinging with his sword, it's look cool. And that move with blowing Apollo just cool.
And Ishida and his move - glorious! And the last panel was just awesome :D Rejoice fans of Ishida, he looks so cool :D
All in all, awesome duo with Ishida and Renji, just cool :D

ShinobiWrath
May 19, 2007, 01:57 PM
It Looks like ZaelApollo Grantz is F#@ked but I doubt Kubo is going to let him go out without a bang. Although the awesomeness of this chapter was orgasmic I still long to see what happens to Ichigo now that he's all out of ammo. Kubo was nevr one to shift from fight to fight just when the gettin's good. he's gonna play this one out to the end.

naru_naru
May 19, 2007, 10:36 PM
The complete functionality of the hougokyou hasnt been explained so far. Or does there exist some Databook explaining it ?
I wonder where you got these nice explanations then ? Could be true but there is no evidence and Aizen never said he cant use it on himself. The reason he needs his reiatsu to awaken it, is that its not fully awakened so far.

been offline for some time cos of exams,
sorry i forgot to state its my opinion on how the hougokyou based on what we seen in the manga, sorry for the confusion.

just read manga...awesome chapter its nice to see kubo utilise battle tactics in the recent manga, maybe that is the only way for our (relatively) weaker heros to fight stronger opponents. we've seen it used before in the kenpachi and tousen battle.

Silhouette
May 20, 2007, 04:59 AM
I think Szael is out for good, he was already half baked after Renji's attack and not only Ishida has delivered the final blow, but he also took into account the possibility of Renji failing to hit Szayel which means Ishid's attack was intended to finish Szayel off by itself. Szayel is no 8 and if Rukia can kill no 9 with one blow to his weak point, In don't see why the White and Red team can't kill Szayel with a double blow

However, there is still a problem...Renji has also fallen which means Ishida is the only one standing.....the rescue team is basically screwed up if no back up team comes to save them and retreat.

AnimeGirlPan
May 20, 2007, 04:23 PM
I looked over the manga and Renji and Ishida seem to be working together in this fight here and umm..I agree about Szael may be out for good and dead after they attacking the dude towards the end..I'm just wondering what Ichigo's fate will be soon enough

ANBU4U
May 21, 2007, 12:04 PM
Hmmmm.....when the smoke clears we'll find that he's released.

Tomodachi69
May 21, 2007, 06:45 PM
Hmmmm.....when the smoke clears we'll find that he's released.

I agree. Besides, I'd hate to not be able to see Szayel's release. Sure, minor Arrancar like Nakim not releasing was fine, but Kubo letting an Espada die without releasing almost feels wrong.

On the point of Rukia, that was a fluke, period. Achilles was invincible except for his heel; while Aaro Niero wasn't invincible, his tank-head was his weak point and he left himself wide open for Rukia to attack him, whether or not he thought she was gone. I think of that battle as more his loss, not her win.

ANBU4U
May 22, 2007, 11:33 AM
I agree. Besides, I'd hate to not be able to see Szayel's release. Sure, minor Arrancar like Nakim not releasing was fine, but Kubo letting an Espada die without releasing almost feels wrong.

On the point of Rukia, that was a fluke, period. Achilles was invincible except for his heel; while Aaro Niero wasn't invincible, his tank-head was his weak point and he left himself wide open for Rukia to attack him, whether or not he thought she was gone. I think of that battle as more his loss, not her win.

Exactly, the guy was an idiot.

sKaR
May 22, 2007, 12:56 PM
i think in this ep either zael may fall!!!or amy b sum new espada will come in thqa nich of time to render ishidas attack useless..nothin more seems to b possible as these 2 r the only 1s left---sado,rukia,ichigo(huge disappointment) down!!!

gigantor21
May 22, 2007, 03:17 PM
^ Kubo desperately needs to develop the top 3 Espada, so having one of them step in now would be great. Since I think Noritora (who's occupied) and Stark (who's lazy) are in that group, I don't expect to see them, so I vote for Halibel (who I think is ranked first). But I think it'd be even better if either the Vaizards or Urahara's group were the ones to intervene.

In particular, it would be awesome if Noritora found Urahara or Shinji, while the members of their respective groups were found alongside the other failed rescuers. I'd love to see a match between a Vaizard and a released Zaeruapollo, but that's probably not happening.

naru_naru
May 23, 2007, 01:19 AM
tbh i dont see this arc continuing for much longer, there is too much at stake for the other groups (against aizen) to lend ichigo & co a helping hand. then again it seems like ichigo's potential has meant ichigo (if the potential is fulfilled) will be a strong asset in the up coming fight (when aizen tries to make the royal key). the only thing ichigo and co can leave with is the knowledge that they need to get stronger (waaay more stronger).

if the top 3 espada are further developed in this arc then there is a good chance it will be through a fight, which means someone from ichigo's team are going to get severely owned. if the top 3 espadas are further developed then maybe it will be in the next arc, a meeting perhaps; between aizen, tousen, ichimaru and the espada on how to set the plan for obtaining the royal key into action.

if anyone does come to save ichigo & co it will probably be the vizard (dont see anyone else strong enough in the non SS groups; and SS are not going to help) however saving one at the risk of many does not seem to be their style, especially when ichigo isnt one of their comrades.

all i see is a poor plot device to save ichigo and co, otherwise this arc is not going to end. the arrancer haven't even been tested, the ones that have been killed are nothing more than cannon fodder, so it would be odd for kubo to write in something that would make them lose face after hyping the espada.

Remus
May 24, 2007, 07:35 AM
I still think Aizen is still gathering Vasto Lorde. Do you think there are only like 4 Vasto Lorde in all of Hueco Mundo ? I said 4 because I guess all counting from Ulquiorra are Vasto Lorde. Grimmjaw might be too but who knows and there is till #5 missing.
And as long as Ichigo doesn't make a Goku and goes SSJ3 or some crap like that I dont care what happens to him.