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saywaki
April 06, 2006, 11:52 AM
Hi Mina-san,

i didn't find anything about the past from Ichigo's father on the forum.
So, let's me ask : how do you think his youth was ?

Well, i can't remember where in bleach's manga or bleach's animation we can see him wearing shinigami clothes(thanks for telling me where it was), but i have got the feeling that he was once before.

Most of all, I can't be surprised to see him being the Vaizard's Leader.

So let's share ideas about him, what he could be in the future & so on.

Ja ne.

Miso
April 06, 2006, 12:11 PM
I remember that there is a theory that he was a royal guard at Soul Society.
But I'm not sure about that.

There is surely a mystery about him. He does have Shinigami powers and he was able to impress the Shinigami who saw him with that...

saywaki
April 06, 2006, 12:27 PM
Do you have an idea in which chapter or episode it was ?

TeamNaruto
April 06, 2006, 12:52 PM
Isshin appears in Shinigami uniform in the last page of chapter 186 then all throughout 187 and 188. He talks to Urahara who does in fact confirm that he was a Shinigami beforehand since he asks Isshin how it feels to be in a Shinigami body again after 20 years. The anime however has not caught up to this part of the manga.

saywaki
April 06, 2006, 01:02 PM
thanks for the chapters !!!! :smile-big

btw, any ideas about who he "really" is ?
what do you think about him as a Vaizard's leader ?

he always tries to make Ichigo ready to fight, Does he have a future for his son ?

Dragonzair
April 06, 2006, 07:00 PM
Nah. He can't be a Vaizard's leader. It just doesn't fit with the fact that he had a shred of a Captain's robes on. Threre' a high possibilty that he was from the Royal Gurad if not Captain.

I remmber something about him being a Shinigami soo... XD

saywaki
April 07, 2006, 07:17 AM
Yes, i read again the chapter about him and he can't be a vaizard, but what is surprising, that's Uruhara et Isshin know about Vaizard.
If a captain in Soul Society is shocked to see Ichigo with his hollow mask.and doesn't know what it is ... i can't think that Isshin is not related to the vaizard and Aizen true form.

Zenith
April 07, 2006, 09:30 AM
Isshin and Urahara are close accomplices. Maybe he's in the same division as Urahara when Urahara was still part of the Gotei 13. That's how Isshin got to know about the vaizards and stuff. Since vaizards are based in the real world instead of soul society, it's no real surprise that a captain like Kuchiki Byakuya doesnt know what a vaizard is. So in conclusion, i'd play down the idea that Kurosaki Isshin is a vaizard leader of some sort.

quantus347
April 07, 2006, 12:11 PM
Isshin as the Vaizard Leader is a bit of a stretch. Now, Issin as a zaizard at all, thats possible. He may have been part of Urahara's experiments. Perhaps even the first real success in unlocking the hollow side, a process which he later used on Ichigo. He may have simply been forced to leave when Urahara did.

On that note, I have always heard that Urahara was forced out due to his creation of the battery, and other hollow experiments deamed inappopriate. Is this fact or assumption? What chapters is it from if it is fact?

ILUVATAR
April 14, 2006, 04:14 PM
hmmm, how about in the first chapters when the first hollow attacked Ichigo and his family... how come and he droped "dead" so easily... did he got by surprise? he? that great and powerful shinigami?
i want to hear your opinion on this

Dragonzair
April 14, 2006, 06:17 PM
hmmm, how about in the first chapters when the first hollow attacked Ichigo and his family... how come and he droped "dead" so easily... did he got by surprise? he? that great and powerful shinigami?
i want to hear your opinion on this

I have a feeling whatver he's been doing from the start before it was revealed he was a Shinigami, was all fake. Maybe he knew there was a Shingami around *Rukia* and didn't even bother.

Because if he tried to do something, it'll be revelaed to his children, adn I doubt he'd want that.


With Aizen's true motives in the light, I find it wasy to believe that Isshin was in fact a part of the Royal Guard. Which is why he knows alot about Aizen and stuff.


Isshin as the Vaizard Leader is a bit of a stretch. Now, Issin as a zaizard at all, thats possible. He may have been part of Urahara's experiments. Perhaps even the first real success in unlocking the hollow side, a process which he later used on Ichigo. He may have simply been forced to leave when Urahara did.
On that note, I have always heard that Urahara was forced out due to his creation of the battery, and other hollow experiments deamed inappopriate. Is this fact or assumption? What chapters is it from if it is fact?


Actually, Urahara was indeed kicked out of SS due to a creation he made. Can't remember the chapter, but that was when Aizen was telling Rukia what he was after her for.

Remus
April 15, 2006, 08:44 AM
Well Urahara wasnt kicked so far. He just left in order to hide the thingy Aizen now found and stole. About Isshin I guess the reason he retired has something to do with the death of his wife. It was very tragic as far as I know.

Galth
April 15, 2006, 10:48 AM
Uruhara was put in jail and awaiting to be executed because of something he made ( that thing in Rukia's body? what was it's name? ) and Yoruichi saved him and they both dissapeared... at least that's what i remember...

arell
April 15, 2006, 11:30 AM
Uruhara was put in jail and awaiting to be executed because of something he made ( that thing in Rukia's body? what was it's name? ) and Yoruichi saved him and they both dissapeared... at least that's what i remember...


Urahara put in jail?! Since when? Which chapter did that come from? O_O;

He was exiled because of the gigai he made, one which can hide the Shinigami's reiatsu. In fact, the research center guys were talking about this when Rukia's gigai was sent for destruction. (Chapter 69, page 5)

Oh, and that "thing" in Rukia is called Hougyoku.

Dragonzair
April 15, 2006, 04:14 PM
Ghost: He was never put in jail. XD I thin khe just left, and Yoruichi followed. Urahara was banned from SS I suppose.

Pevee
April 15, 2006, 04:27 PM
I think he has something to do with the royal family. He's either the royal guard or one of the royal family himself. To think about it, I think it will fit perfectly well with the story line if he is one of the royal family and Ichigo is also one. The manga would be so cool!

Dragonzair
April 16, 2006, 07:51 AM
^agreed!

Thus making this King thing even cooler! :knk

quantus347
April 16, 2006, 05:18 PM
hmmm, how about in the first chapters when the first hollow attacked Ichigo and his family... how come and he droped "dead" so easily... did he got by surprise? he? that great and powerful shinigami?
i want to hear your opinion on this


If he is a Captain level death god then he should be powerful enough to have stepped in at any time and saved them if Rukia proved incapable. He probably would have activley held back when he saw that things were heading toward Ichigo getting Death God powers.

On another note, in Chapter 187 King Fisher says "if the father is a shinigami, then Kurosaki Ichigo is a Shinketsu (true blood, by my translation)." Does that mean that both Issin AND Ichigo's mother were/are death gods?

The Boff
April 16, 2006, 08:13 PM
hmmm... a thread about Isshin.. what could i possible post here.
maybe something like:
OMG!!!!! He is a shinigami!!! OMG!! new favourite character for the boff oh hell yeah!


now that i got that out of my system.


If he is a Captain level death god then he should be powerful enough to have stepped in at any time and saved them if Rukia proved incapable.  He probably would have activley held back when he saw that things were heading toward Ichigo getting Death God powers.

On another note, in Chapter 187 King Fisher says "if the father is a shinigami, then Kurosaki Ichigo is a Shinketsu (true blood, by my translation)."  Does that mean that both Issin AND Ichigo's mother were/are death gods?

it would seem so yes. but that just weirds up everything... then his mother should have been able to
do something about fisher. maybe not beat him but still fight him.

Lissa
April 17, 2006, 04:06 AM
If he is a Captain level death god then he should be powerful enough to have stepped in at any time and saved them if Rukia proved incapable.  He probably would have activley held back when he saw that things were heading toward Ichigo getting Death God powers.

On another note, in Chapter 187 King Fisher says "if the father is a shinigami, then Kurosaki Ichigo is a Shinketsu (true blood, by my translation)."  Does that mean that both Issin AND Ichigo's mother were/are death gods?


his mother can't possibly be death god else she woulda seen the hollow like what ichigo had seen

The Boff
April 17, 2006, 06:45 AM
his mother can't possibly be death god else she woulda seen the hollow like what ichigo had seen

all the more reason for her to scream noooo and run towards ichigo in a panik

quantus347
April 18, 2006, 03:46 PM
Alright, heres a thougtht:

Isshin and his wife are death gods who flee soul society 20 years ago (the reason why being a whole other thread of speculation, lets set it aside for the moment). To hide, or maybe to try and start a new life, they both use one of uruhara's special gigai that eat you spirit power until you become human. Fast forward a few years and Ichigo's former death god mother can see the hollow about to eat child ichigo, but cant do anything more than jump in the way to stop it. This is supported by Isshin saying (ch 188) "I was powerless to save masaki that night."

ILUVATAR
April 18, 2006, 05:34 PM
ok, think of the other thingy.... while Ichigo was fighting Grand Fisher he let his son fight by himself and almost died? (iChigo could have died in that fight yet he didn't do anything)
and on the other hand, Grand Fisher was the killer of his wife, he must have sensed his power didn't he? wasn't he curious to just see the hollow his son was fighting? and if he saw it why didn't he killed him in an instant for revenge ;[ aha aha VENGEANCE AAARGHHH

quantus347
April 20, 2006, 11:36 AM
and on the other hand, Grand Fisher was the killer of his wife, he must have sensed his power didn't he? wasn't he curious to just see the hollow his son was fighting? and if he saw it why didn't he killed him in an instant for revenge ;[ aha aha VENGEANCE AAARGHHH

After he did kill King Fisher he told Uruhara that he had never had a grudge against the hollow, just the fact that he could not protect her that night.

On the Note of Uruhara: Whatever happened to him, he was more than just ordinarily kicked out of soul society. The very fabric of soul society itself will not allow him to enter, even while he's sneaking so many other people in. That is more that just normal "leaving." It also strikes me as a bit beyond the power of the Gotei 13. perhaps the King/Royal Family (who are described as have more god-like powers) had something to do with it? Aslo make you wonder what will happen to his soul when it comes time for him to die and return as per the cycle. will his soul be allowed in?

near
April 20, 2006, 03:15 PM
well isshin doesnt seem to have anything against urahara
so i wonder if (assuming that he is the prince or associated with the royal family in some way)he sided with urahara and was kicked out as well for siding with him.

also if he was banished (or is royal blood who escaped) maybe he just hides his powers wenever he can so that the gotei 13 wont pick up on him. if thats true it would make sense for him to show his powers when he did and not before, since he can sense the strong forces that aizen is building. he probably figures that soul society wont worry about him since theyre dealing with a war and all hell breaking loose and all

Galth
April 20, 2006, 04:05 PM
Perhaps Isshin used to be Uruhara's vice-captain? I still think Uruhara's powers are above Isshin's...

forbidden515
April 20, 2006, 10:28 PM
My opinion:
On the whole first chapter issue, at the moment he was not a shinigami, right? He was a normal human and that is why he got his ass kicked. Which makes me believe that his shinigami powers were somehow sealed by Urahara, and later maybe after the Grand Fisher incident or during the Soul Society Arc(b/c the threat to his son's life had risen), He had Urahara lift the seal on his powers. Even if he were able to use his shinigami powers, he would still need some way to leave his physical body. He probably wanted to avoid bringing out his shinigami form maybe for some past mistake or tragedy, but the threat from Aizen's betrayal and such forced him to ally with Urahara and bring out his old shinigami form. I think that his powers were released during or just after the Soul Society arc.

Onto the true blood thing, I know this may sound a bit sexist, but since all Grand Fisher needed to know was the fact that Ichigo's father was a shinigami then maybe the shinigami "genes" are passed from the males onto their children.

I think Isshin is a member of the royal guard who fell in love with a member of the royal family(the wife). It was forbidden. Exiled and stripped of powers (at least to SS knowledge). Urahara is exiled at around the same time, and the wife uses it as a chance to escape and find Isshin. Whether or not members of the royal family are shinigami has not been determined, and maybe the wife had to be in a gigai that eventually mader her a human (like someone else said) without the ability to see spirits and such .

saywaki
April 21, 2006, 08:57 AM
Well, if Isshin's powers was sealed, i think he could be angry after Uruhara, and even if he could understand why he was sealed, he should not be so friendly with him.

One Bad Mo Fo
April 21, 2006, 11:13 AM
I think he might have been the former 11th squad captain. The piece of captains cloak he has on is arm has the same stylizing as that of Kenpachi. The frayed coat thing carries over to Ichigo who is really an 11th squad kinda guy, one might think that Isshin is the same way. When Ichigo goes to soul society several people are like “Kurosaki eh?” as if they know the name Kenpachi is one of these, but I don’t think they’d ever take the connection seriously because Isshin faked his own death when Kenpachi became the 11th squad captain. To escape the rigid soul society and start a family w/ his wife the needed to ovoid detection in the living world, which is where Urahara and his special gigai come in.

Rampages
April 23, 2006, 09:51 PM
He would have to fake his death in the presence of lots of members of the 11th squad too..don't forget that they need witnesses of the battle, either.

jabbament
April 25, 2006, 12:39 AM
I doubt he was the previous squad Captain, that would be meh...anti-climactic. I do, however, like the idea that he is part of the royal family. It could/would explain alot I'd think, because Ichigo's growth is extremely abnormal, so if he were royalty or a noble, it would explain quite a few things, since I'd assume a purebread Shinigami would "grow" differently (and faster) than someone who developed spiritual powers after they died.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2401/m7bleachch18712135ms.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m7bleachch18712135ms.jpg)
So, that cape could be a shread of his Captain's robe, but I don't think so somehow:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5908/m7bleachch187172qv.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m7bleachch187172qv.jpg)
Its worded too ambiguously to tell what he really meant (and I don't read Japanese, so I can't check)...if he said something like:
"All Captain level Shinigami control the sizes of their zanpaktou..." it doesn't mean that he himself was a Captain. If he would have said something like: "Us Captain's can..." then it'd be safe to say he was a Captain. But he hasn't claimed anything, and I doubt good old Kubo Tite wants to be really predictable with his characters. :p


As for Urahara:

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5250/mangarainbleachch175156rp.th.png (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mangarainbleachch175156rp.png)
That's why he was exiled...and obviously that's why he cannot re-enter Soul Society...Yourichi and Urahara had been friends for god knows how long (remember, when Urahara joined the Gotei 13, and Yourichi her branch of the military, they trained together to further their strengths/limits), and she helped him escape.

Personally, I hope he's a member of the royal guard or family itself...would make things more interesting and explain alot methinks.

Dragonzair
April 25, 2006, 05:19 PM
jabbament pretty much said everything I wanted to say. ^_^ Nice post.

About the 'Captain' issue, I've been trying toget the exact translation since different groups translated it in their own way, but now that you say it, it actually makes sense. Although I'm still trying to figure out what that robe was.

Maybe something the Royal Guard wore?

Also, speculations about Isshin being Urahara's Vice Captain can't be true.

http://i3.tinypic.com/whfnmx.jpg

That chapter clearly showed that the only person who followed Urahara out of SS was Yoruichi. If anyone else had helped, then it would have been mentioned.

As for why Isshin never tried to help the first time a hollow appeared in their house.

I've been thinking about it for a long time now, and I'm still not even sure what I'm trying to say. XD Someone mentioned before that maybe Isshin had his powers sealed by Urahara? Could be, but then what reason would he have had to seal it?

Ah whatever...I give up. XD

jabbament
April 25, 2006, 11:27 PM
jabbament pretty much said everything I wanted to say. ^_^ Nice post.

About the 'Captain' issue, I've been trying toget the exact translation since different groups translated it in their own way, but now that you say it, it actually makes sense. Although I'm still trying to figure out what that robe was.

Maybe something the Royal Guard wore?

Also, speculations about Isshin being Urahara's Vice Captain can't be true.

http://i3.tinypic.com/whfnmx.jpg

That chapter clearly showed that the only person who followed Urahara out of SS was Yoruichi. If anyone else had helped, then it would have been mentioned.

As for why Isshin never tried to help the first time a hollow appeared in their house.

I've been thinking about it for a long time now, and I'm still not even sure what I'm trying to say. XD Someone mentioned before that maybe Isshin had his powers sealed by Urahara? Could be, but then what reason would he have had to seal it?

Ah whatever...I give up. XD
Yeah, I don't think we'll find out what the robe is for a while...but I'm still damned curious.

As for Isshin being Urahara's Vice Captain? Highly doubt it. Isshin himself is at least Captain's level, and from the little bit we've seen of him in Shinigami mode, he's pretty damned powerful (remember, the Grand Fisher had been murdering/eating Shinigami for 50 years, and then he got his "power up" and got even stronger...but he was still dead before Isshin blinked).

I agree with you. No one else helped Urahara escape. He was sentenced to be exiled (and who knows what exactly Soul Society's "exile" is? I'd guess its probably something like isolation for the rest of eternity with no hope of ever coming in contact with anything again and no way to get back and nothing to do...), so his rescue/escape operation would have been something secret, and since Urahara and Yourichi are both damned strong (and fast), anyone else probably would have been a burden more than a help ;p

As for my guess why Isshin didn't try to help:
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/779/bleach147ce.th.png (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bleach147ce.png)
At the time, we didn't know, but now its safe to say that Isshin can see ghosts/Shinigami, and he probably didn't do anything because Rukia was there...that's just my guess anyway.

And if he did seal his powers...my guess would be the "romantic" one. Masaki was a regular human (thus why she couldn't see that hollow the day she died), and Isshin choose to seal his powers and become human...Urahara was not exiled for the creation of the Hogyoku, but for the gigai he created that could turn a Shinigami into a Human, so odds are, his body was nothing more than that type of gigai. Also, I'm sure Urahara being the genius he is had a way to reverse the effects, which could explain the first part of his conversation with Urahara:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5292/m7bleachch188064yx.th.jpg (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m7bleachch188064yx.jpg)
He hasn't been in the body of a Shinigami for 20 years? Yeah, odds are he was stuck inside one of Urahara's gigai.

Anywho, those are just my guesses/theories. :p

Dragonzair
April 26, 2006, 04:52 AM
*laughs out loud*

IRONIC IS THE WORD FOR THIS, GODDAMIT! :P

I wnted to post something similar to what you said about Isshin not being a Shinigami for 20 years, but it was just speculations on my part since I totally forgot about that scene (the last page you posted). So I wanted to ramble on and on about Isshin not being able to help Ichigo in the first place due to him stuck in a gigai, or something like that. XD

And I like your thoery about Urahara not being exiled due to the hougyok, but for a gigai he's created to make Shinigamis more Human-like.

\And that thing about Masaki, I can agree to, as well. ^_^ I'm thinking Isshin was sent to the Human World just like Rukia was, and fell in love with a human. As simple as that really. ^_^

jabbament
April 26, 2006, 05:07 PM
*laughs out loud*

IRONIC IS THE WORD FOR THIS, GODDAMIT! :P

I wnted to post something similar to what you said about Isshin not being a Shinigami for 20 years, but it was just speculations on my part since I totally forgot about that scene (the last page you posted). So I wanted to ramble on and on about Isshin not being able to help Ichigo in the first place due to him stuck in a gigai, or something like that. XD

And I like your thoery about Urahara not being exiled due to the hougyok, but for a gigai he's created to make Shinigamis more Human-like.

\And that thing about Masaki, I can agree to, as well. ^_^ I'm thinking Isshin was sent to the Human World just like Rukia was, and fell in love with a human. As simple as that really. ^_^
Hah. I beat you to it, damn it! :p

Anywho, about him not helping, I think it fits about Isshin being stuck in one of Urahara's gigai so he was a human, not much he COULD do, and I want to believe that he saw Rukia so he wasn't worried (since, c'mon, its been revealed that he's no where near as stupid as he pretends to be) about it. I'm going to stick to this theory until proven wrong damn it!

As for Urahara's exile:
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5250/mangarainbleachch175156rp.th.png (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mangarainbleachch175156rp.png)
(that's the one I posted a few comments back...and as much as I'd like to claim it as my theory, its really not a theory...that page is from when Aizen was talking to the half-dead Ichigo and Rukia (before he removed Hogyoku)...the big issue with the gigai he made was the fact that Soul Society/Gotei 13 could not track the gigai (since, like he said, they're made out of a dense concentration of spiritual matter/energy), so the Shinigami would turn into a human and disappear. I guess something like that was deemed forbidden research or something of the like, ya know? I don't think Gotei 13 liked the idea of their officers going AWOL. :p

And about Isshin, yeah, I'm a bit of a romantic, so I like that theory...but because of his strength (and assumption that he had a high position), I don't think he was sent, I think he went to earth...but, that's just because I like the romantic element of it...hate me if you want. :p

XD KYAHAHHA Lol. Ok, I don't mind the 'romantic' theory of yours either. ^_^ //DZ

Dragonzair
April 27, 2006, 01:33 PM
It'll be really awesome if Isshin participates (I'm sure he will) in the upcoming war. If he is indeed a part of the Royal Guard, it's definite he's involved. He does know about Aizen and Vaizards...

jabbament
April 27, 2006, 08:48 PM
It'll be really awesome if Isshin participates (I'm sure he will) in the upcoming war. If he is indeed a part of the Royal Guard, it's definite he's involved. He does know about Aizen and Vaizards...
No hoping required:
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/8503/m7bleachch188100gy.th.jpg (http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m7bleachch188100gy.jpg)
The comments "it must mean they're preparing for some kinda battle, huh?" is talking about the Vaizards, and its still Isshin talking when he says: "Just like us."

Urahara, Yourichi, and Isshin are all going to be involved in the next big "war".

Rampages
April 27, 2006, 08:52 PM
No hoping required:


That is, if he doesn't die prematurely, which I would hate XD

jabbament
April 27, 2006, 10:15 PM
That is, if he doesn't die prematurely, which I would hate XD
That would be anticlimactic to say the very least....but nah, he's got his Shinigami body back, and we saw that without releasing anything, he was powerful. If he dies, I'll vomit on my PC and throw it out the window then drive over it with my brother's truck or something.

The Boff
April 28, 2006, 09:13 AM
If he dies, I'll vomit on my PC and throw it out the window then drive over it with my brother's truck or something.

ill be right beside you dude

Dragonzair
April 29, 2006, 09:57 AM
And me with you all.

I would most definitely not want that to happen.

Rampages
April 29, 2006, 01:06 PM
We could all go and start a protest thread if he dies XD

HELL YEAH!!! //DZ

fremeer
April 30, 2006, 01:29 AM
i think the way urahara's gigai works is overtime it builds up ur soul chain until it becomes whole again. After that u are a human but probably with a shinigami soul, just like ichigo. Ichigo's human body wouldnt stand a chance against a real hollow so im guessing that why isshin was taken out so easily in the 1st chapter

ILUVATAR
May 01, 2006, 12:40 PM
Imagine this:

Ichigo is cornered by many strong oponents, suddenly one of them dies by an unseen helper and all of a sudden his father stands next to him to fight the oponents together...... :tem
now try to imagine Ichigos face after this :amuse pretty hard eh? hihihi

jabbament
May 01, 2006, 09:19 PM
Ichigo is going to look like a cow staring at a new fence when he finally finds out about Isshin.
Either that or he'll finally realize and understand why the bloody hell he has his own Shinigami powers...

_ATMA
May 01, 2006, 10:30 PM
I think he might have been the former 11th squad captain. The piece of captains cloak he has on is arm has the same stylizing as that of Kenpachi. The frayed coat thing carries over to Ichigo who is really an 11th squad kinda guy, one might think that Isshin is the same way

his uniform looks a bit diffrent from the typical shinigami notice on his right arm there are slits in the over shirt and on his left side he has the squad leader style robe but he has a sort of plate thing wraped around his arm like some sort of badge... maybe it was a specail dress they wore signifying where they were part of a diffrent leage all together im not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet lol so i went ahead w/ it


http://atomic.omegafusion.net/~atma/ishi.jpg



but Isshin's uniform is definately diffrent from the typical shinigami even the dress not just the over robe

possibly he was the leader of the royal guard it would explain his hideing didnt the manga mention somewhere the leader of the royal gaurd had the key or something fuck idk well play it from there?

or he may have been a member of the royal family and decided to join the royal guard beacuse he was sick of fallowing all the rules and quickly rose through the ranks

Dragonzair
May 02, 2006, 05:30 AM
^ Many people have been speculating he was a part of the Royal Guard after the Databooks came out. ^_^

I actually believe that too. XD

Sheesh. That is the most bad assed scene I've ever seen. :spaz

ILUVATAR
May 02, 2006, 05:58 AM
omg. what _ATMA said sounds weird and correct :blink i had completely forgot about that key thing they were talking about earlier..... maybe it is because of this that they put now Isshin to be a Shinigami and a prety powerful one... (some sort of the extra powerful royal guard key protector or something ;) hmmmm could it be??? or maybe to put him in the royal family the prince that had the responsibility to protect the key) oh whatever... i'll wait to find it out :p :amuse

_ATMA
May 02, 2006, 09:50 AM
lol i said something half way relevent for once.... lol

thatbabo
May 12, 2006, 05:26 PM
If Isshin isn't with the RSTF, I'll be extremely disappointed...

KT...please let it be so... :wtf



Sheesh. That is the most bad assed scene I've ever seen. :spaz


So true...I squealed like a school girl when I saw that scene... :woo

trakerz
May 12, 2006, 05:53 PM
I've been thinking about it and came up with this theory...
-so we know that Isshin and Ichigo's mom are living on earth but that Isshin still has his powers even though he's not in Mod-type (like Kon)
-His cloak is different from any shinigami we've seen
-Urahara knows about him somehow...
-he's pretty damn powerful

on the other hand, you have Ichigo
-that has an incredible spirit power potential
-Wichigo calls him King... or your Highness or whatever

so I'm thinking something more like DBZ-Gohan (mixed blood) meets The Three Musketeers (royal guard has affair with queen) type of thing...

Ichigo's mom would have been of royal decent! and her relationship with Isshin wasnt accepted in Soul Society so they fled and settled on Earth-real world
Isshin could've been from the royal guard or a captain-vice captain but id opt for a royal guard that fell in love with the one he was protecting...

So that's why you have Ichigo with a ridiculous amount of spirit power (royal blood plus royal guard blood)
Isshin on the other hand would still act as the guard of the royal family's lineage (Ichigo)

(ok i dont really have anything for the sisters but eh...)

So what do you think...

_ATMA
May 13, 2006, 01:01 AM
(ok i dont really have anything for the sisters but eh...)

So what do you think...


maybe ichigo's powers will get so strong to the point where the awake his sisters powers? and everything is forced into the open?....... and if ichigo is royal blood it would also make the girls royal too..... maybe they would be weak but at least shinigamis themselves... i can see the older sister being one but im not soo sure about the youngest lol?

also it would help explain why he reached bankai ... remember when Byakuya said he could never reach it beacuse only nobal blood was thought to have the power of reaching bankai


well fuck sorry if it all seems far fetched x.x

Dragonzair
May 14, 2006, 03:33 AM
@trackerz: Someone's mentioned that before, but we've thought that it's almsot impossible for Masaki to be the Queen. First, she would have been able to save herself (if we take into the fact the the Royalties were a strong bunch) and prevented her death, or even Ichigo.

If not, then it was also mentioned before that there's a missing Prince in the Royal Family (it was mentioned in the Databooks, I think). And I don't think the prince would be Masaki. XD

Nor would it be Isshin (well maybe there's a possibility) but I think not. There's this thoery I read at NF. XD Something about Aizen being the missing Prince. You may seem to think it's over board, but..I read it, and..it seems possible XD

Check it out here (http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=97516)

As far as we know, the whole Kurosaki family can see ghosts. It's been mentioned already in the first chapter. Karin can see evereything as clear as her brother can, but her sister can only see vague ones....

Meh. Now I think about it, maybe Masaki was able to see ghosts. XD

ligerjager
May 22, 2006, 12:16 AM
if masaski could see ghosts that would explain why she protected ichigo....she could see it but not do anything about it. Like isshin when the family was first attacked.

jabbament
May 22, 2006, 09:34 AM
if masaski could see ghosts that would explain why she protected ichigo....she could see it but not do anything about it. Like isshin when the family was first attacked.
Well, she didn't have to see ghosts for her to run after her little boy. I think it was known that he could see ghosts as a little boy, so she probably knew what he was running to/yelling after was a ghost ('cuz she couldn't see it), and she tried to stop him.

It could just be the mother in her. :p I'd like to believe that his mother was a normal human, and he got his Shinigami powers from Isshin.

ligerjager
May 22, 2006, 02:05 PM
That would be a more logical explanation. So far that ichigo inheriting his spiritual strength from issin does seem to be the best explanation, unless kubo is go to start giving us information....which most likely won't happen.

nvzblity
May 23, 2006, 11:50 AM
this is just a thought, but perhaps since one's reiatsu is whittled away in Urahara's gigai until the person becomes human, perhaps the amount of shinigami-ness Ichigo and his sisters inherit is inversely proportional to how long their parents have been in the gigai.

although this leaves me to question how isshin is able to summon his kickarse shinigami strength again if he has been in the gigai for 20 years (assuming he has been using Urahara's gigai).

pelias
May 27, 2006, 09:15 AM
well , i don t remmeber urahara being in jail, peor si lo botaron de la ss por loq eu invento
(i'll write in my own lenguage , i'm tired of translating) se que es imposible que el entre e la ss , lo probo el capitulo en que envio a ichigo, toco la puerta y su mano se tuvo que retirar

Remus
May 27, 2006, 06:33 PM
well , i don t remmeber urahara being in jail, peor si lo botaron de la ss por loq eu invento
(i'll write in my own lenguage , i'm tired of translating) se que es imposible que el entre e la ss , lo probo el capitulo en que envio a ichigo, toco la puerta y su mano se tuvo que retirar


Well I never saw Urahara in jail as well but I cant understand the rest and you are being pretty selfish here. I dont write my opinion in my own language as well. Sorry for OT but thats just stupid also who is going to comment on that if everyone uses his own language ?

ILUVATAR
May 30, 2006, 07:19 AM
have you ever heard about the Babel Tower? find it in some book an read about it. if any one of us starts speaking his own language this site will transform into a chaos. we will not be able to understand each other. what a lame thing to think of.... omg. -->OFF TOPIC SORRY, I HAD TO<-- :notrust :noworry

they never said that he was put in jail. they said he was exiled from Soul Society cause of his extraordinary experiments.... we can see here a conspiracy against Urahara. the other scientists were jealous of him and they ploted against him so that he will be exiled :kukuku what a nasty thing to do

Dragonzair
May 30, 2006, 08:26 AM
Guys, be nice here. :amuse No bashing, please. ^_^

As for pelias, please type in a language where we all can understand. This forum, afterall, is international. And we all know English is international. Don't worry if the grammar or spelling's off. We won't bite. ^_^

Back to topic, guys.

ILUVATAR
June 06, 2006, 11:45 AM
we were on topic where i stopped.... soooo, Isshin did knew anything about the Hougyoku??? i mean, did he knew the whole thing that it was hidden inside of Rukia's gigai??? he and Urahara had some sort of friendship didn't they? i think that putting him in the allmighty allknowing guy position might make him a hidden card for the Soul Society agianst Aizens plans. none except Urahara knows about him so... he is the ultra super powerfull good guy that will save the dayor what? i can't wait for the moment where he wil be revealed to Ichigo :spaz :XD

:offtopic alternative Bleach Ending. Ichigo battles Aizen to the Death. Aizen falls down and right before the final hit he speaks loud and clear: "Ichigo, i'm your father" in a lame Darth Vaider style :darn :smile-big :smile-big :XD :rofl

:rofl ///DZ

Maple Snow
June 10, 2006, 05:19 AM
I can't wait until Ichigo finds out his dads a shinigami maybe then we would get a flashback or maybe more info on Isshin.

Plus I think "ILUVATAR" alternate ending is funny but if it had happen that would be stupid.

Quickedge
June 25, 2006, 02:11 PM
hey any of you guys think the reason why isshin didnt help rukia or ichigo when they were first attack was because it was all part of urahara's plan?
he did want to hid rukia after all...
and they do seem to be good friends..

Remus
June 26, 2006, 08:29 AM
If it was his plan then he even accepted Rukias death as a possible solution to hide the err someone please write it I forgot the name lol.

ILUVATAR
July 01, 2006, 04:07 PM
i don't think Urahara had anything to do with this - i mean, yes maybe he is the one that gave to Isshin his gigai but to make a whole plot to hide the fougyoku??? geez, to kill someone else for such a reason, that doesn't fits right for Urahara to me. that's not his style i must say. he probably would hide it in one of his candies in the store :darn :tem

venicia777
July 01, 2006, 09:06 PM
i totally agree with you on that. that would totally change what we know about urahara. the guy might have done something horrible to rukia but he isnt bad at all- he tried saving her in the end using ichigo instead ofhimself going.

does anyone feel like isshin would be appearing in this current arc? it's about time he shows himsel to ichigo- i cant wait to see the expression on ichigo's face.

gigantor21
July 03, 2006, 03:01 PM
Well, I don't think that Kubotite is going to be able to keep avoiding Isshin in the manga forever...he may have been able to avoid putting Isshin in any of the fights for the past, like, 6 months or so, but Soul Society is going to need all the help that it can get against Aizen. That's probably why they conveniently 'forgot' to apprehend Urahara and bring him back to Soul Society to be tried for his crimes--they probably wouldn't want to put a captain-level fighter in prison or on death row right now. The same thing goes for Youruichi too, since she was basically pardoned after helping the Shinigami once Aizen came back. So then why not Isshin, too?

Quickedge
July 03, 2006, 03:49 PM
i don't think Urahara had anything to do with this - i mean, yes maybe he is the one that gave to Isshin his gigai but to make a whole plot to hide the fougyoku??? geez, to kill someone else for such a reason, that doesn't fits right for Urahara to me. that's not his style i must say. he probably would hide it in one of his candies in the store :darn :tem


hmm good point :p
btw.. this mite have been asked before but... how come every1 can see urahara.. um wait... can every1 see urahara like is he a human or a spirit? oh yea.. and i def. think and hope isshin makes an appearance some time this arc... oh and um.. i kno this is kinda off topic but.. does ne kno which episode in bleach starts the huge filler arc?

Jammer
July 04, 2006, 12:54 AM
here's my point of view on the story so far:

isshin and urahara were captains in Soul Society, Urahara was head of the research dept. over there, when he created his "invisible" gigai he had to try it. isshin volunteered and went to the normal world. for all soul society he disappeared - even some might have thought that urahara had something to do with his disappearance, so urahara was driven out of SoulSociety and it was oficialy forbidden for him to come back in Soul Society. and I can just speculate here but i think when urahara was expelled Yoruichi followed him (she was originally presented as Urahara's best friend) - so that means this could have happened 100 years ago (Yoruichi vs. Soi Fon: "after 100 years i've become beter than you") eventualy while in the normal world Isshin is having fun (that part isn't hard to imagine :) ) and around 15-20 years ago he fell in love with Ichigo's mother and started a family. when ichigo's mother died isshin made a vow never to use his shinigami powers because he failed to save his wife, or to use them only to protect his family!
so when rukia appeared in the beginning she couldn't sense Isshin because of the gigai, and I think isshin was struck in the back - probably taken by surprise, or he was hit first cause he thought the Hollow was coming for him and if it had its way it will leave the family alone...

but then again these might be just speculations ;)

Bartserk
July 06, 2006, 10:34 AM
No ill will against this manga, but it's one of the most incoherent mangas I've ever read :s It is filled with incoherences everywhere. For example, they said that when souls die they retain the form they had when they died, and that's why for example Hitsugaya, Rukia and Soi Fong have childish looks despite having lived for lots of years as a soul. They why in hell Renji appears as a child playing with Rukia in Soul Society and then appears as grown up? More things: they said that when souls arrive to Soul Society they are put in random places, and it doesn't matter if two souls are family because they can be separated anyway (the parrot guy Chad saves says it). Then why Rukia said that she was separated from her sister because he got married? And, it was his real sister because they were so alike. More things: where does a soul go when it dies? It seems stupid, but souls die! Because for example Rukia's sister died, and Rukia's boss (the one who was brother of the fireworks guy) too.

This manga has a very clear and imho a bit boring structure: bad guys arrive and the good guys fight them. At first the bad guys kick the good guys' ass. Then something very impressive and spectacular happens, the good guys wipe the bad guys' ass completely and the combat ends. Then, in the next combat, the good guys fight with the impressive and spectacular thing that got in the previous combat, and even that way they have their ass kicked by the next bad guys that come for them, but even that way, something even more impressive and spectacular happens and saves the day again. I'm very conscious that Kurosaki Isshin is one of this. The author inconsciously sent him into battle without looking at the full consequences and he didn't realise that there were lots of incoherences, like isshin in the house when the first hollow attacked. Anyway, if Isshin was that strong why the hell didn't that hollow eat him completely?

My conclusion: Isshin is a product of the author's hastiness, nothing more ;p

lee-nus
July 06, 2006, 10:52 AM
that's an interesting theory, admittedly, bartserk. i too have questioned some of what goes on in that world of theirs. forgive me for not giving more creative with my post, its been a while since i put any creative thought into bleach, which in my opinion is really getting out of hand...

ILUVATAR
July 06, 2006, 12:54 PM
about what Bartserk said... i dissagree with you man. if i remember correct Soul Society isn't just the place where souls go when they die.... it IS a society. i know it sounds kinda funny but people can be born in soul society. (you can't wait for a good warrior to die in a young age so that you will make his strong soul a shinigami don't you think? :noworry)
Renji and Rukia were children determined to grow up and be strong so that they will eventually one day become shinigamis. otherwise.... how did Rukias sister died in a SOUL Society huh? and why are there families of nobles? you see now what i mean?
about your second paragraph i have to admit that most of the mangas/animes are like this (don't forget that always will be an incident about a rescue mission of a girl). you can't change things. there will always be similarities among these things. just read/watch them and try to enjoy them. noone forces you to do this. you do it with your own free will to have fun. right?

Asmodeus
July 06, 2006, 01:07 PM
It's been my theory all along that Isshin was the head of the Shiba family and the captain of the 11th Division. He fell in love with a human woman on Earth, so he let Kenpachi beat him so he could escape. For the shame of losing his position and it's head, the Shiba family was banished as nobility to Rukongai. Of course, his escape was facilitated by Urahara, another one of the sandal hat's little tricks. It puts a nail into why Kaien and Ichigo look so much alike, and why Isshin has a torn clock (as does Kenpachi). Think that holds any water?

I also get the feeling that A:) Ishhin is about to show up to help with the Arrancars or B:) Ishida is about to show up. It's prime time for an appearance.

Bartserk
July 06, 2006, 06:40 PM
I disagree in that people can be born in Soul Society. Lol shinigamis are souls, they have no body! Otherwise normal people on earth would be able to see them. And when they are in soul society, they retain their zanpakutohs and their costumes so they keep on being souls. The only possible explanation I can find if your theory is true is that when a living being born in Soul Society they get killed so their soul is released. Because, if they have a real body of their own, why do they use fake ones when they have to infiltrate on earth just like all the crew had done? And about the noble families, I think it's just another incoherence. The parrot guy's friend said that the families found on Soul Society didn't necessarily share blood links when they were alive. Either nobility is a family formed in Soul Society with some concessions given, or there is a small bug here ;p

And anyway, when Rukia explained Ichigo what Soul Society was, she said it's the place where soul goes, in other words, it's heaven. How can people get born in heaven? :s

About the structure being the same in all animes, I strongly disagree. In this concrete anime the structure is very exagerated. Between fights, the development chapters are always like: "Omg, I'm so stupid and so n00b, I've got to find a way to get more raw power". There is something that most animes don't have: there are lots of chapter showing how the characters train themselves. I find this positive, but I think the plot is by far too simple. The other two mangas that you can find in this community, One Piece and Naruto, are much more unpredictable and fun imho. About predictibility, I foresaw that Inoue was going to be kidnapped two chapters ago, when the strong shinigamis departed without her and left her behind for a moment. And after she gets kidnapped, of course, Ichigo and his friends will go rescue her as they did with Rukia in the previous arc. Story repeats, isn't it? Problem is that I got addicted to this and until I know how it ends I can't stop reading, even with the incoherences :p

ttxdragon
July 10, 2006, 09:39 PM
bartserk,
if you say souls can't have children, how can they touch buildings, humans, other material things?

What's important is not to lose sight of the Spiritual Density of the Entities. The higher the spiritual density is, the further advanced are the spiritual bodies. Till a certain amount of spiritual density you can count things as ghosts, those are as known to you by usual literature, not able of anything. when a certain amount of spiritual density is reached some kind of spiritual activity begins causing the spiritual bodies to have the same behaviour as human bodies (hunger, exhaustion, [sexual desires, thus the urge to reproduce], aging[,thus being able to die a 'natural' death]), but not being of organic material, they are still spiritual nature.
Humans are the same as the other Souls, with the only diffrence, that humans have organic bodies which compensate their low spiritual density and make them able to be hungry, exhausted, aging (much faster, because organic bodies have some disadvantages compared to spiritual bodies) and sexual disires, despite the low spiritual density.

you can see the bleach-universe as this:
Soul Society --> spiritual only world, high spiritual density, therefore far advanced and more knowledgeable, having the want to protect the stabilty of both worlds since they are linked
'Earth' --> organic and spiritual world, low spiritual density, therefore trying to imitate the spiritual world through origanic materials and unknowlegdeable about the two worlds and the link
Huego Mundo --> world seperating soul society and earth, spiritual density seems higher than the earth but a clear reference still needs to be done


entity -- can *** --> other entity
Humans -- touch --> Shinigami, Hollows
Humans -- not touch/see/hear --> Ghosts
HWHSD* -- touch, hear, see --> Shinigami, Hollows, Ghosts*
Shinigami, Hollows -- touch, hear, see --> Humans, Ghosts

Special Cases:
See v01ch01, when a hwhsd is there and emitting a high amount of spiritual power people without a high density can see ghosts and more.

*HWHSD = Humans with high Spiritual Density, not everybody can clearly see/hear such, but at least the 'outlines' of them or just sense their presence.
*Ghosts is here referring to Spirits not having a high spiritual density and as such aren't to be touched, neither to be hungry or able to starve.


this is what i got as an expression from the world of bleach, hope everybody was able to follow, because it was little confusing to write that down xD

Killmnky7
July 22, 2006, 02:06 AM
I was thinking for a little while.
Couldn't they show more of Isshin in the manga. He's so great.
He is probably on the same level of strength as Aizen seeing as how he killed a
Arrancar Grandfisher without using any power at all.

Dragonzair
July 23, 2006, 04:22 PM
Merging this with another Isshin thread. ^_^

Isshin's definitely an awesome character. Here's to hoping seeing him in the next few chapters. It's been months since his last appearance.

Although, I don't really think he's yet at Aizen's level. If he was, then he could've done so many things at this point and destroy him by now.

graphic_content
July 24, 2006, 01:03 AM
Merging this with another Isshin thread. ^_^

Isshin's definitely an awesome character. Here's to hoping seeing him in the next few chapters. It's been months since his last appearance.

Although, I don't really think he's yet at Aizen's level. If he was, then he could've done so many things at this point and destroy him by now.



But I dont think it so much concerns the level they are at...because Urahara himself could have opted to go with Ichigo and the others to SS to retrieve Rukia, but simply chose not to...just as Isshin, has chosen to remain in his gigai - concealing his reiatsu - for over twenty something years. we didnt see Aizen's true strength until the end of all things - and even still - he probably even stronger now considering his fusion with his Hollow - in which case...he could just killed Ichigo himself instead of sending Yami and (that skinny guy whose name is real weird)

...i think its more a matter of choosing to stay out...rather than actual battle strength. IMO - just some thoughts.

jabbament
July 24, 2006, 09:55 AM
But I dont think it so much concerns the level they are at...because Urahara himself could have opted to go with Ichigo and the others to SS to retrieve Rukia, but simply chose not to...

Chapter 70, Page 17:
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/5195/bleach17wu3.th.jpg (http://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bleach17wu3.jpg)

He didn't go because he couldn't, not 'cuz he chose not to.

ILUVATAR
July 25, 2006, 12:24 PM
yeap... jabbament is correct. he was exiled from SS, he didn't just fled away. (omg just look at his face when he touches the door and it hits him :wtf :scry) poor Urahara....)

anyway. i too believe that isshin is reeeally strong but not as strong as Aizen. he may not hold any grudge against the hollow that killed his wife but what about the REALLY BAD GUYS that will destroy everything? ;)

Dragonzair
July 25, 2006, 03:25 PM
^ I know. That was the scene which got me all so uber sad. XD

He seemed like he wanted to go back.

ILUVATAR
July 26, 2006, 01:53 PM
........it's more like he was testing to be sure that the barrier taht kept him away from his home was still there.... if it wasn't there... then what? :wtf
so much :offtopic shame on me....


back on topic. if we see a battle of Isshin and Urahara VS Aizen and his army that would be awsome but for now we will have to see what's happening to Orohime-dono.

rennokun
August 05, 2006, 06:56 AM
isshin could be stonger than urahara i reckon

graphic_content
August 05, 2006, 11:25 AM
if we see a battle of Isshin and Urahara VS Aizen and his army that would be awsome


that would be incredible - throw in Urahara's partner in crime-Yoruichi, Ichigo and the Vizards - and we would have the makings of a full scale war over the skies of Karakura Town.

Ishiken
August 15, 2006, 03:39 AM
Isshin was a Captain, he also left after Urahara did. Isshin probably left when he fell in love with his wife and chose to stay in the Living world. Isshin did tell Ichigo where to find the Grand Fisher and probably knew his son could defeat or drive it off. We will have to wait until Urahara answers Renji's questions for the entire tale.

Ganju is of the Shiba family and his older sister probably used to be a Death God.

genkizen
August 15, 2006, 08:53 PM
I agree with Kuukaku being a former shinigami, in some scenes she is depicted with what looks like a zanpakuto.

Dragonzair
August 16, 2006, 12:03 AM
Ganju is of the Shiba family and his older sister probably used to be a Death God.

Kuukaku, I understand. It may be possible, then maybe they went away from SS to live in Rukongai. But for Ganjyu to be one, would be quite even more impossible. Ganjyu hates Shinigamis. He doesn't even know about certain stuff. Like, if he was a Shinigami before, h3e would've known about that 'practice' they used to do.

Which was, throw criminals into a pit, and let them fight with Hollows. And other such stuff. It's possible that they have spiritual powers, but never became Shinigami, as well. I'm not too sure of this, but I wasz reading back through the chapters where Ichigo and co. were practicing in Kuukaku's home. Ganjyu mentioned about the people in Rukongai not being able to use their spiritual powers. If I am correct, it ay be possible that they all have powers, yet they don't use them, since they ca't. Not because they don't have any.

Tatsuki, Keigo...or whatever. XD From the human world. Maybe it's only becuase Ichigo had forced it out of his friends, that they have it.

Anyway, I went off topic again. >_< BLARGH.

Back to topic:


Isshin was a Captain, he also left after Urahara did.

We can't say for sure, he was a Captain. There's still the Royal Guards. Which I'm putting my bets on. XD But the idea of him leaving SS to follow his 'wife' isa nice one. But, if he did leave after Urahara, then people from SS would've recognised Kurosaki's name. That is, unless he didn't change them when he went to earth.


Isshin did tell Ichigo where to find the Grand Fisher and probably knew his son could defeat or drive it off.

o__O? When did he tell Ichigo where to find Grand Fisher?

Ishiken
August 16, 2006, 01:24 AM
Gajyu, His older Brother and his Sister are all from the Banished Shiba Family. The only one who we are certain was a Shinigami is his older brother. His sister might have been one, but that has not been proven. Ganjyu was not one although he does know some demon arts. It just goes to show the mystery of the missing Shiba family has been solved and Isshin is not a member.

renrutal
August 20, 2006, 02:01 AM
I beleive Isshin does have something with the Royal Family.

In chapter 223 there was the talk about the Absolute Being of Soul Society: the King of the Royal Family, and a way to reach the location where he lives: the Royal Key.

I'm wondering, why the King is the Absolute Being? I believe he is very strong, perhaps the only one who can stop Aizen, which is why the ex-captain wants to kill him.

But being strong is an easy thing, at least it's not something unique, anyone can be strong. So what makes the King unique?

If I was Kubo Tite, I'd say the king is a leader, the one who can bring out the best of everyone, the one who can awake hidden powers.

I'd say Isshin was the former King, who fled Soul Society in Urahara's special gigai, which was the true reason why he was banned; and Ichigo is the current one. He is absolute being because he can unite the hollow and shinigami powers fully, and even awake up other people reiatsu just by pouring some of his on them.

graphic_content
August 20, 2006, 03:09 AM
He is absolute being because he can unite the hollow and shinigami powers fully, and even awake up other people reiatsu just by pouring some of his on them.


I agree that Ichigo is unique - awakening shinigami powers WHILE still alive, and even awakening powers in others - BUT I would have to disagree with their former royalty status...The King - which you speak of - seems more like a figure-head type; a role played for the sake of maintaining a status quo and certainly a position that doesnt seem easily abandoned. Isshin though strong, hardly seems the type - IMO.

Urazz
August 22, 2006, 08:36 AM
At the most Isshin could be a prince that ran from those duties but I think having him as a royal guard or a former captain is much more feasible.

mugen
September 03, 2006, 06:06 PM
Just wondering also is he Human or a soul that has been living in a gigai?

goofy_man
September 03, 2006, 07:16 PM
Just wondering also is he Human or a soul that has been living in a gigai?

That hasn't been fully explained yet. I imagine that Kubo Tite will have a dramatic meeting between Isshin and Ichigo some time in the future where Isshin explains everything to his son (and possibly to Karin and Yuzu as well). Until then, we will have to wait and see....

ttxdragon
September 04, 2006, 06:21 AM
from the viewpoint of the last chapter, isshin seems to have been a shinigami that lost his powers and therefore was in a gigai...
refer to ryuuken saying 'So, you're powers have returned?'

Lohnt
September 04, 2006, 12:08 PM
huh? I understood the chapter to say: Isshin gave up his powers as a Shinigami to start a family with his wife and keep his children safe, but now they're back (you're right about the gigai part) although was he in a gigai? I guess with the walking through walls bit.. still I wonder if he has the same ability as vizards to be a human with shinigami powers...

bax
September 04, 2006, 12:38 PM
I think he is soul living in a gigai. No proofs whatsoever, but it's just my opinion. Maybe he was one of Urahara's subordinate when Urahara still a captain in Soul Society.

A point to ponder. Does the children of a shinigami can be a shinigami too? Then, Ichigo's sisters can also be shinigamis, right? Or the power needs to be awakened, like Ichigo? I can understand that if a soul living in a gigai and married a human, then they can breed like normal human. Although, what an invention that is :darn. My curiosity is about those shinigamis living in Soul Society. Do they breed like normal human would? :p

ttxdragon
September 04, 2006, 12:44 PM
huh? I understood the chapter to say: Isshin gave up his powers as a Shinigami to start a family with his wife and keep his children safe, but now they're back (you're right about the gigai part) although was he in a gigai? I guess with the walking through walls bit.. still I wonder if he has the same ability as vizards to be a human with shinigami powers...

we did not get a reason,
so i just said he lost his powers... how he lost them? we don't even know that...

walking through walls bit? where was that mentioned? i must be blind...

same abilities as a vaizard? because he is a human with shinigami powers? who said he was a human with shinigami powers? and how would that connect to vaizards anyway?

@baxteristic:
assuming from the facts given till now, they can get children the natural way - just like organic instances (humans, animals)...

bax
September 04, 2006, 01:07 PM
same abilities as a vaizard? because he is a human with shinigami powers? who said he was a human with shinigami powers? and how would that connect to vaizards anyway?


I may be lost or missing something here. Vaizard has shinigami powers? Didn't they posses the power of hollows instead of shinigami? Can someone clarify on this? What about the swords and masks? Is Vaizard = human + shinigami + hollow?

ttxdragon
September 04, 2006, 01:13 PM
Vaizard == 'A Shinigami that stepped into the Hollow Realm'

so to say, a vaizard is a shinigami, that acquired hollow-powers.
where as an arrancar is a hollow that acquired shinigami-powers.

they are still what they have been, but now in an 'enhanced' state if you want to put it that way...

Urazz
September 04, 2006, 07:28 PM
Vaizard == 'A Shinigami that stepped into the Hollow Realm'

so to say, a vaizard is a shinigami, that acquired hollow-powers.
where as an arrancar is a hollow that acquired shinigami-powers.

they are still what they have been, but now in an 'enhanced' state if you want to put it that way...

Or as I like to think they got the best of both worlds but tend to lean towards one side more so than the other. lol

Anyways, it's a bit vague on Ichigo's father being a human that gained shinigami powers or is just a shinigami that was in a gigai that drained shinigami powers and turned them human (the type of gigai that Rukia was using before the SS arc.).

Lohnt
September 04, 2006, 08:41 PM
I meant the power that Vizards (speculation) seem to have that allows them to use shinigami powers while they are humans.. I mean they walked around school/town and people saw them, but they could use their powers.. also no shinigami costume (sure they could have changed, but if they're flipping between gigai and vizard?)

also (walking through walls) Ichida showed up at the doorway Ishida was locked into.. so he got into their home or whatever.. I guess I didn't think it through he could have just gotten in through the window.

nvm on the vizard thing because he had a gigai.. ugh i need sleep

Dragonzair
September 06, 2006, 07:46 AM
I'm merging this with this thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=2650.0) since it's one and the same discussion.

mugen
September 10, 2006, 02:05 PM
No it's not

okay maybe it is but I think that isshin escaped with Urahara and Yourouchi.

sharinganLS
September 12, 2006, 08:56 AM
I dont think Isshin's reason for leaving SS was the same as Urahara and Yourouchi. They were probably banished for different reasons.

mugen
September 12, 2006, 02:49 PM
Well what do you think was his reason for leaving then. And why do you think he was banished? I know he left but did'nt think he was banished.

Hyuuga Hanabi
September 15, 2006, 07:12 AM
I wonder how Parallel the...
Isshin/Ryuuken
Ichigo/Uryuu
Thing goes. I have a feeling they had some sort of rivalry, or even a friendship when they were Ichigo/Uryuu's age.

bax
September 15, 2006, 07:13 AM
I wonder how Parallel the...
Isshin/Ryuuken
Ichigo/Uryuu
Thing goes. I have a feeling they had some sort of rivalry, or even a friendship when they were Ichigo/Uryuu's age.


Most likely. If you see it in reverse view, that would be how Ishida and Ichigo will act when they grown up.

_ATMA
January 10, 2007, 09:21 PM
well i was just watching the newest episode of bleach (110) which now gives us clearer and cleaner pictures to go by then sometime hazy manga scans anyway heres a newer picture of isshin as a shinigami
so i decided to try and revive this topic since we are now once again cought up what are everyones new found thoughts this far into the manga?

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/8269/vlcsnap1477059gp7.th.png (http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap1477059gp7.png)

mugen
January 10, 2007, 09:25 PM
we shall see Ishin this arc or at least at the end of this arc....
and he will tell us his story
I hope.....

qwan3356
January 10, 2007, 10:06 PM
I hope to see that too, Isshin is really interesting to me.

gigantor21
January 11, 2007, 09:36 AM
I remember how everyone went bonkers after the chapter where we saw him as a Shinigami. That was a big "told you so" moment for the people who already thought he was awesome...

And his relationship with Ryuuken is interesting. My guess is that Isshin probably met him while stationed Earth before becoming a captain, since I don't think that they let Shinigami representatives become captains (but don't hold me to that).

Koen
January 11, 2007, 12:20 PM
isshin certainly deserves a gaiden, like kakashi got one. I think after this arc whatever the outcome is, kubo really has to explain more about isshin, urahara and yoroichi

gigantor21
January 11, 2007, 03:22 PM
isshin certainly deserves a gaiden, like kakashi got one. I think after this arc whatever the outcome is, kubo really has to explain more about isshin, urahara and yoroichi




we shall see Ishin this arc or at least at the end of this arc....
and he will tell us his story
I hope.....


I agree with both of you. If there will be a gaiden-type thing, then it should be after this arc ends, for sure.

JioFreed666
June 09, 2007, 01:09 AM
Okay a wild wild shot in the dark prediction based on me and my friends conversation while going to a local anime convention..... What if the one "born under heaven",ichigo, is son to the king of the spirit world and Isshin is the king of the spirit world or pretty much god himself. Or Isshin is the son of the king of the spirit world, yeah I might be reaching into an unknown unknown but that would explain alot such as:

Why he is so secretive around his children about his shinigami side and would do anything to protect his family (before ichigo became a shinigami) from knowing about anything spirit related

Why no one ever made the connection between Isshin and Ichigo last name even thought it is known to the eldest 3 captains (the 1st the laid back guy and the sick one) even urahara who is a known ex-captain. Also Isshin is said to be an ex captain or of that level which i think they would have noticed that amount of power.

Why Isshin wasn't attacked by the elder Uryuu even thought we had an understanding that Uryuu hates all Shinigami even ichigo who kind of works out the normal boarders

Richo
June 09, 2007, 02:41 AM
its unknown at this point why isshin did leave SS or the royal gaurd for my part, the only thing what is known that isshin got rid of his shinigami powers many years ago (20 if i am correct), and ichigi is around 15-16? So i dont think he fell in love with his deceased wife and waited for 5 years to have children. My gues would be that he lost his shinigami powers already before he met his wife. on a side note about the numbers of captain who know about isshin is right now only 1 ex-captain being urahara, ukitake thought ichigo to be related with kaien from the Shiba clan and Byakuya said that he wasnt part of the shiba clan as ichigo was infact human from the real world.

Isshin didn't hide his shinigami part he just did not have untill recently with his encounter of GF arrancar, he probably knows the presence of hollows and all but did not care less as the shinigami take care of those matters (and it seems isshin does hate the shinigami as much as the vaizards)

and last isshin does know ishida his father as they probably have the same relation to eshoulder as ichigo has with Uryuu: being friends and foes as rivals (atleast ishida does see it like that way as ichigo doesn care less)

Naelyan
June 09, 2007, 11:42 AM
Well, it would make sense if isshin had been more than a shinigami captain, though that doesn't explain why urahara would know about him... Cause if isshin really was a captain that disappeared 20 years ago, at least ukitake or kyuraku should have remembered after hearing ichigo's name. At first ukitake thought he was kaien cause ichigo really resemble him, though he doesn't look like isshin at all.

I don't really know where you got that isshin hates shinigamis and vizards though. What I actually thought about isshin, was that he left soul society along with urahara and yoruichi 100 years ago. The only thing that we know for a fact is that he lost his power for 20 years, but that doesn't mean that's when he left soul society. That would explain the gap between he lost his power and when he probably met his wife about 4-5 years later, making those two events unrelated, so isshin would have want to lead a normal life after losing his power. It would be funny if isshin actually lose those while saving ishida ryuken... lol, that'd explain why ryuken hates him so much, but still doesn't really act as hostile as his words.

LongShot
June 09, 2007, 04:54 PM
like said thousand of times...Isshin could have change his last name

Why Isshin wasn't attacked by the elder Uryuu even thought we had an understanding that Uryuu hates all Shinigami even ichigo who kind of works out the normal boarders
Uryuu hates shinigamis because they(mayuria) killed Uryuu's Grampa...

and looks like Ryuuken hates the shinigami institution but not every single shinigami....why I've no idea, cuz he didnt even carry to receive the Quincy legacy...he learn everything but didnt call hinself a Quincy

Ripht
June 11, 2007, 04:32 AM
To me ichigo is like the link keeping everything together because he is everything he's human he's a shinigami, he's a hollow and he even has powers close to a quincy's. And i would guess that to make any theory about the king and the whole born under heaven kinda thing is a little hard to predict there are sooooo many things that could be true but might not be.

like ichigo could be the king "reincarnated"
ichigo could be the king to the kings domain
ichigo could be the son of the king
ichigo could hav nothing to do with the king at all

Renji88
June 15, 2007, 05:12 AM
I think isshin was a member of a noble family (right now we know three noble families, but one is missing) in soul society, and a captain in the gotei13

remember what byakuya said when he fought against ichigo in soul society? nobles has superior spirit force that trascends all others and they can achieve bankai
ichigo and isshin are surely strong and achieving bankai in 3 days isn't so normal for a "substitute shinigami"

maybe 20 years ago isshin broke the rules (and if he worked with urahara? this could explain why ichigo has a hollow inside him, and why both isshin and urahara knows about the other vizard) and was sent to the human world
in the human world he married masaki (and who knows, kurosaki could be masaki's name...)

maybe I'm crazy but I think this could be a good theory

gfire2
June 21, 2007, 04:01 AM
i concur with ur theory Renji88

i also believe isshin is from the noble family

unlike other captains isshin has this arm band around his bicep, like byakuya who has these bands on his hair and there also similar in color

Neuroff
June 21, 2007, 04:27 AM
I think isshin was a member of a noble family (right now we know three noble families, but one is missing) in soul society, and a captain in the gotei13
Why do people keep saying three noble families are known and there's only one unknown? Shiba is no longer one of the major noble families, of which there used to be 5, there are 2 that we don't know.


remember what byakuya said when he fought against ichigo in soul society? nobles has superior spirit force that trascends all others and they can achieve bankai
ichigo and isshin are surely strong and achieving bankai in 3 days isn't so normal for a "substitute shinigami"
Ichigo is Isshin's son. That basically makes him at the least a minor noble.

That Ichigo took 3 days to obtain bankai is also another common misconception. It took 2. He starts on the day that he fought Zaraki and Byakuya. The next day Renji comes and says Rukia is going to be executed at noon the next day. He finishes on time to save Rukia. I'm going to assume that by the time he woke up after fighting Zaraki, fighting Byakuya, and getting knocked out by anesthetic, it was at least noon. This is a very safe assumption, and it was probably even later than noon. So:

Day 1: noon - evening = half a day
Day 2: full day of training = full day
Day 3: morning - noon = half a day

Add it up and Ichigo got bankai in 2 days.


maybe 20 years ago isshin broke the rules (and if he worked with urahara? this could explain why ichigo has a hollow inside him, and why both isshin and urahara knows about the other vizard) and was sent to the human world
in the human world he married masaki (and who knows, kurosaki could be masaki's name...)
If Isshin was in the Gotei 13, he left much more than 20 years ago. Rukia has been a shinigami for something like 40 years, she would have known of someone as powerful as Isshin. If Isshin was in the Gotei 13, it's more likely that he left with Urahara and Yoruichi.

The reason Ichigo has an inner hollow is the shattered shaft. Ichigo was about to become a hollow, but the hollow was pushed into his soul as Ichigo became a shinigami again.

chapapa
June 21, 2007, 06:48 AM
Why do people keep saying three noble families are known and there's only one unknown? Shiba is no longer one of the major noble families, of which there used to be 5, there are 2 that we don't know.


the three known are Byakuya, Shihouin and Kyoraku
then there is the fallen Shiba clan
and the last is not known

now about Kyoraku I know it from wiki and they probably know it from a databook
and in wiki about Ukitake is written: "Jūshirō is the eldest son from the low-class aristocrat Ukitake family." - now whether noble equals aristocrat or no is arguable but he might just be the unknown noble clan

Neuroff
June 21, 2007, 07:03 AM
Wikipedia says Kyouraku is from a high ranking noble family, that doesn't mean it's one of the four main houses. Unless someone translates it as that, there are still only 2 known.

Ukitake is definitely not from one of the four... low-class = lower noble house. Similar to Soi Fong and others.

ttxdragon
June 21, 2007, 07:12 AM
I don't want to sound like an ass, but do NOT use wikipedia to base your theories and comments from. Use the manga pages and character books for that.

I could go and edit it that Urahara is a white vampire-dog mixture and it would stand on Wikipedia.

-

anyway, whether ukitake is or ain't of a noble family isn't very on-topic to begin with >.<
please try to get back on topic.


-

and of course there is more than a name to isshins and ichigos relations:
they are genetically father and son for all we know about.

Sorry, but this thread doesn't make much sense to me...
It seems like another "What is the relation between Urahara, Isshin and Ryuuken and what does it mean for the storyline or Ichigo?" Thread.

I will give this thread some more time to see if it starts to distinguish itself from the other thread, but if not, this thread will be merged into the other one.

mars0103
June 21, 2007, 03:10 PM
right i think tht hat and clogs got exiled making that gigi that turns shinigami human 100 years ago ishsin is more likely royal grard than goti13

kazuma_uzumaki
November 24, 2007, 02:14 AM
Ichigo's dad yes but it never relly explained much about him when it showed he was a shinigami.

Was he originaly a shinigami and then used a gigai to have kids or what?

Because Urahara had said it's been 20 years since he last was shinigami


Isn't it bad or something to be in a gigai for 20 years?

Or is it something like Ichigo's situation

never really a shinigami to start with (going through the whole academy thing)

Richo
November 24, 2007, 02:37 AM
as far we can gues about isshin it is:
1. he was a former captain (due to the white cape on his back wich doesnt show his number)
2. he disgarded his shinigami powers 20 years ago, and got children.
3. he regained his shinigami powers somehow (i myself suspect due ichigo and his reiatsu roaming around free)

Ripht
November 24, 2007, 05:03 AM
I doubt he lost his powers but for some reason needed to lay low and hide, what better cover then to have a family. I don't think its possible to lose you shinigami powers and be able to regain them.

Ichigo was a special case because he was mostly drawing on rukia's shinigami power (in a way, not saying he wasn't using his own but he was kind 60/40 his and hers) and then he regained his power by goins 100% himself.

ANBU4U
November 24, 2007, 10:19 AM
I doubt he lost his powers but for some reason needed to lay low and hide, what better cover then to have a family. I don't think its possible to lose you shinigami powers and be able to regain them.

Ichigo was a special case because he was mostly drawing on rukia's shinigami power (in a way, not saying he wasn't using his own but he was kind 60/40 his and hers) and then he regained his power by goins 100% himself.

Exactly, once your shiningami powers are removed its done for good. Ichigo just happened to have a second set on hand.

chrisb3
November 24, 2007, 10:54 AM
He did lose his powers, otherwise how did Grand Fisher kill his wife?

Only Urahara's special gigi is bad as it gradually turns you into a human... which he tried to do with Rukia to hide the hougyoku.

My guess is that Isshin committed some kind of crime and was sentenced to death, so he went to Urahara who had been previously exiled and got the special gigi to turn into a human and hide.

mars0103
November 24, 2007, 10:54 AM
Exactly, once your shiningami powers are removed its done for good. Ichigo just happened to have a second set on hand.
That wrong Ichigo from birth has shimgami powers the powers that got were rukias

Ripht
November 24, 2007, 11:03 AM
That wrong Ichigo from birth has shimgami powers the powers that got were rukias

you just said he was right, he was using mostly rukia's power and when he regained his powers he was running on 100% of his own fuel.

mars0103
November 24, 2007, 11:52 AM
you just said he was right, he was using mostly rukia's power and when he regained his powers he was running on 100% of his own fuel.

ops ya right :)

radical3113
November 24, 2007, 07:48 PM
who really is isshin kurosaki?
hmmm.............. to me hes just a big fat plot hole . if he's in a gigai ichigo shouldn't be alive, if hes in spirit form it wouldn't make sense from episode 1. if hes in ichigos situation and uses his real body as a gigai, why would "noble" ss let an impure soul become an official capt in the gotei?????????

segua
November 24, 2007, 08:27 PM
Maybe Isshin Kurosaki was a human shinigami like Ichigo. Back in the day, he was in a team with Ryuken Ishida, Urahara, and Yoruichi running around bashing Hollows for fun. But seriously, he has to have been a former member of Soul Society or something.

AngryChubbs
November 25, 2007, 01:48 AM
i think he has something to do with the royal guard. we dont know that he was a captain, we just know he has a white robe tied around his arm. so my guess is he has something to do with the king.

Ripht
November 25, 2007, 03:58 AM
he is the first guy we've seen that doesn't wear his white captain coat like a coat and instead as a metal plate holding it onto his sholdier maybe this metal plate its something more then a fashion statement.

drakend
November 25, 2007, 09:01 AM
I don't know who he really is but I hope he will have a very good reason to allow Ichigo being in life-threating situations. If this reason won't be explained or will be a lame one Isshin will remain the worst father in shounen-genre history (together with Ryuuken of course) IMHO.

chrisb3
November 25, 2007, 10:03 AM
Guys read my above post? Uruhara's gigai explains everything as it turns you into a human.

segua
November 25, 2007, 12:44 PM
Guys read my above post? Uruhara's gigai explains everything as it turns you into a human.

I say that and must say that that is possible one of the more viable explanations. You could say that a little less than two decades ago a shinigami came down to earth for a mission and saw a beautiful lady. He fell in love but because he was a spirit, he couldn't express his love towards her although he had protected her from harm countless times. He later sought out Urahara and struck a deal to become human. In doing so, he forfeited his shinigami powers and Soul Society placed him as M.I.A. to this day. The woman and him later got married and had three wonderful children.

Just my spin on things.

But my deal is, how did Isshin regain his powers? I think it must've been connected to Ichigo realizing his own shinigami powers. This led me to think that all pluses has the potential to become shinigamis. Rather, you have pluses with the potential to become strong spiritual warriors such as the Quincies, Chad, and Inoue. Back to the topic, since those who were exposed to Ichigo for longer periods of time seem to develop their own spiritual powers, this was probably how Isshin revived his own powers. Though it seemed that it may have taken longer for him to do so.

Yet how come it took Isshin that much longer to regain his powers since he practically lived with Ichigo? It was only revived after the SS arc. The reason might be that Isshin had power comparable to that of a captain level shinigami. Yet, after the SS arc, Ichigo's reitsu was comparable to that of a captain. Therefore, I concluded that Isshin's power could only be revived with the help of another comparable reitsu which in this case would be Ichigo.

Neuroff
November 25, 2007, 02:26 PM
I say that and must say that that is possible one of the more viable explanations. You could say that a little less than two decades ago a shinigami came down to earth for a mission and saw a beautiful lady. He fell in love but because he was a spirit, he couldn't express his love towards her although he had protected her from harm countless times. He later sought out Urahara and struck a deal to become human. In doing so, he forfeited his shinigami powers and Soul Society placed him as M.I.A. to this day. The woman and him later got married and had three wonderful children.

Just my spin on things.
He's been gone for much longer than 20 years. If it was just that, Rukia would have recognized him. It's more likely he left with Yoruichi and Urahara, then hung out with them until he met Masaki.

cacwoody
November 26, 2007, 06:08 PM
I agree with the guy above me somewhat. How come nobody recognized the Kurosaki name when Ichigo was running around SS fighting people. Everybody knew his name was "Kurosaki Ichigo" and if Ishin used to be a captain or anything special at all, then people would remember the "kurosaki" name. Therefore, I believe that he was similar to Ichigo when he got his powers. Meaning that he never actually went to SS. So nobody actually knew him. or something along those lines......and Urahara still could have met him somehow even though he never went to SS. I mean something as stupid as, Ishin was looking for some candy, and he heard that Urahara Shop sold the best so he went there and both Ishin and Urahara noticed eachothers reatsu. well thats enough for me. oh yeah, and if just by chance somehow, nobody recognized ishan due to young age...atleast yamamoto should...and keep in mind...rukia is 400 years old. and thinking that she represents a good 15-17 year old girl, that would mean that 1 SS year is likely to be around 25ish Earth years. which would in turn me...that if yamamoto is a good 70-80 years old looking, that hes really around 1900 years old. just something to think about....and these are just estimations not facts.

segua
November 26, 2007, 11:59 PM
Good points to the both of ya.

You know what would be strange if Isshin turns out to be Urahara's Vice Captain lol. I'm sure when Urahara left, there must've been a big commotion. But anyway, for the most part, I think the guy could be a substitute shinigami.

AngryChubbs
November 27, 2007, 12:16 AM
being uraharas vice captain could be possible but it just doesn't seem likely to me. When we saw he had powers, he talked about a captains power which makes me think he is captain level and he doesn't seem like the type to be vc to a scientist for some reason.

Jammer
November 27, 2007, 01:38 AM
remember when Isshin went to Ishida's father and Ryuken called him Kurosaki - Isshin made a remark that it's the first time him calling him Kurosaki... maybe this 'Kurosaki' name is his human name and Ryuken finally approved it. So that's why nobody heard about Kurosaki but maybe he retained his other name - Isshin

I too think he came to earth along with Urahara - maybe helping him with the research of the stealth gigai. Later he probably studied medicine along with Ryuken - so their rivalry begins (maybe even before that - while slaying Hollows). Then both meet Masaki and fell in love but she hates them for being different (having powers and stuff). Both make a vow that they'll not use their respective powers. At least Isshin is quite the non-interventionist when it comes to his family. The one time he used his shinigami powers was when Kon was endangered in Ichigo's body and not Ichigo himself. This might have a simple reason - if Ichigo knew about his father at a early stage he may be influenced by him - but probably Isshin wants him to make the choice to use or not his powers by himself.

About the outfit - I hope it's not a captain's but rather a royal guard's. It looks like a mix between captain with vice-captain's outfit. Maybe symbolising great power yet obedience to the ruler of SS.

Anyways theories might sound interesting and still be far away from the truth that's bound to be uncovered at some stage ^^

mestizo311
November 27, 2007, 06:09 AM
I like the theories about Isshin possibly being from the royal guard. He knows about the hongouku and Aizen. When it seems that most if not all of the remaining captains didn't have a clue. And with his outfit looking the way it does, it doesn't seem likely that he was a captain in soul society. From what's being said, he lost his shinigami powers 20 years ago. I think it's possible that the hongouku is somehow tied into Isshin getting his shinigami powers back. Perhaps there was some sort of seal that was broken when Aizen removed the hongouku from Rukia. With the seal being broken, it would enable Isshin to gain his powers back gradually.

Silhouette
November 28, 2007, 03:11 AM
Two threads about Isshin's background speculation have been merged. Please check out the biblioteca's index for future search. thanks.

hollowdemon
December 04, 2007, 11:37 AM
I like the theories about Isshin possibly being from the royal guard. He knows about the hongouku and Aizen. When it seems that most if not all of the remaining captains didn't have a clue. And with his outfit looking the way it does, it doesn't seem likely that he was a captain in soul society. From what's being said, he lost his shinigami powers 20 years ago. I think it's possible that the hongouku is somehow tied into Isshin getting his shinigami powers back. Perhaps there was some sort of seal that was broken when Aizen removed the hongouku from Rukia. With the seal being broken, it would enable Isshin to gain his powers back gradually.


if the hougyoku is linked to isshin's power wouldnt that mean he was some sort of ubber powerful migenda? (human) i still find that theory hard to believe but the idea of him being in the royal guard is definitely amusing :amuse
it could go either way as for him being a captain in SS or a royal guard, although im hoping for royal guard the most though since that would link him to the king but then how was urahara involved in that? the winter war is definitely filled with informations to reveal. :D

AngryChubbs
December 04, 2007, 12:01 PM
urahara doesn't have to be involved in the royal guard in order for isshin to be involved. if he was in the royal guard, that would expain why he is strong enough to defeat grand fisher with just 1 stroke, know the power levels of captains, and have a white sash but at the same time, explain why no one knows of him or his son.

hollowdemon
December 04, 2007, 12:30 PM
@AngryChubbs
thats very true....if he indeed was a royal guard or SS captain its very difficult to think that no one knows and heard of the name "kurosaki" before. In the past there must've been a isshin, ryuuken, urahara, and yoruichi type team that was formed before the ichigo and co. now as probably mentioned before. In the winter arc its possible that we see old man yammamoto is talking to isshin for some reason :o

AngryChubbs
December 04, 2007, 05:11 PM
another thing that bothers me is that he is obviously quite strong...but how come rukia wasn't able to sense his spiritual pressure? is he that good at hiding it? ive never understood just how come they could detect spiritual pressure sometime and other times they cant.

Neuroff
December 04, 2007, 05:36 PM
Isshin didn't get his reiatsu back until around the time Grand Fisher came back. Also, most captain class shinigami can hide their reiatsu, with the exceptions being Ichigo and Kenpachi.

AngryChubbs
December 04, 2007, 05:56 PM
i guess so...its just weird though cause you think other captains might be able to sense it

hollowdemon
December 11, 2007, 10:12 AM
well isshin might make an exception since we're all assuming and hoping hes involved with the royal guards.
Im still not sure how or where he came into play tho :D

Kanzen Shinkiro
December 11, 2007, 03:11 PM
I thought about creating, and even did create the layout for a prequel story to Bleach where Isshin was a recurring character, and a shinigami captain. In it, he mainly supported the main characters. It featured many younger versions of the current cast in the actual manga, minus a few. It was set roughly 500 years before the main storyline of the manga, too. As basis for Isshin's character, I used a hybrid of Chad and Shunsui as inspirations. The end result was a relaxed, but serious character although not free from his own goofs and causing a scene from time to time. If anything, I could describe my version of Isshin then as the wild lone wolf due to his own quite, silent, and slightly rough nature.

AngryChubbs
December 14, 2007, 12:13 PM
i would think of isshin to be very serious when the time came and to know exactly what would have to be done...but when he wasn't killing an enemy, that he would be extrememly relaxed and a giant goof ball. aside from that, the reason im assuming he has something to do with the royal guard is that if he used to be a captain, then someone would have had to recognize the name kurosaki unless he changed his name when he went to the human world....but still, he just seems like he is too cool and probably way to powerful to just be a captain.


o well....he is prolly my favorite character

Kanzen Shinkiro
December 14, 2007, 07:17 PM
http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs23/f/2007/347/d/d/Kurosaki_Isshin_by_Pepeu.jpg (http://pepeu.deviantart.com)

Sketch I did a few days ago of a younger Isshin as he would appear in the story. I guess that is approximately what he would look like during his time as possible shinigami captain or whatever rank he held whilst in soul society.

Added spoiler tag for space. bty that's a nice sketch you got there Kanzen, maybe you should post it in the Bleach Art Forum (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=52)

AngryChubbs
December 18, 2007, 01:10 AM
i like the picture....he looks young ...except for the facial hair makes him seem old though lol

but i do like the pic, very well done.

hollowfied
December 18, 2007, 04:57 AM
He looks like Wolverine.

Wtf..

Lol. And I'm not so sure what the Royal Guards are supposed to do, if SS already has the Gotei 13. If the King's realm is sealed off, wahts the point of having ppl to guard it.

=/

AngryChubbs
December 22, 2007, 12:45 AM
its probably to protect the king itself incase someone like aizen decides to break in and take over.

example: in emergencies...the president is generally sealed off from any dangerous areas but he still has his body guards there to protect him in case someone somehow gets to him.

hollowdemon
December 29, 2007, 11:44 AM
its just too BIG for isshin to be involved with the royal guard, but then again we dont really know the whole deal with urahara, yoruichi and ryuuken so its still a big possibility for isshin to be involved with the royal guard.
I thought kenpachi couldnt hide his reiatsu cuz its so much and he doesnt want to, meanwhile ichigo couldnt since hes a noob at being a shinigami :p

and yes isshin is the man :D

Konkun
December 29, 2007, 11:50 AM
He looks like Wolverine.

Wtf..

Lol. And I'm not so sure what the Royal Guards are supposed to do, if SS already has the Gotei 13. If the King's realm is sealed off, wahts the point of having ppl to guard it.

=/

The existence of the Royal Key proves that someone can get into the realm of the king, thus it makes sense to have Royal Guards in case of an emergency. I wonder if the Royal Court knows about the plans, or all form of communications are sealed and nothing can reach the Court except the key.

segua
December 29, 2007, 05:40 PM
It makes sense for there to be guards but since there are the guards for the King, they should be strong than regular captains shouldn't they?

Windmillblade
December 29, 2007, 08:14 PM
i think ichigos father is in cahoots with yoruichi and ishida's father and urahara. it might explain why they all migrated to earth and hid themselves.

hollowdemon
December 29, 2007, 11:00 PM
it would very well make sense if isshin happens to have a level or two higher than the normal captains but then i wonder where would urahara fall in if hes stronger than the captains ?
the old and new age definitely mirrors each other i think
in isshin, ryuuken, urahara, yoruichi and ichigo, uryuu, chad, rukia image :D

patedecarne
December 30, 2007, 11:21 AM
I cannot think in any other explanation to Isshin but the royal Guard, he said that he has the power of a captain , but never said he WAS a captain , if he was a captain , sure at least yamamoto , shunsui and ukitake would recognized ichigo by the full name , come on , it's only 13 squads , won't be very hard to forget any previous captain , and still ichigo was a completely stranger to gotei 13; the king of SS must be protected by shinigamis with power at least of the most powerful captains in gotei 13 , and yamamoto is the only that know where is the ouken , and he doesn't protect the king , but the king sure has a guard , and seen that is the most important person in all SS, it's logical a royal guard , and isshin knows about aizen and hougyoku, maybe in the last years he come to earth to send any kind of reports to the king, and somehow lose his powers in the process...

AngryChubbs
January 03, 2008, 11:23 PM
its just too BIG for isshin to be involved with the royal guard, but then again we dont really know the whole deal with urahara, yoruichi and ryuuken so its still a big possibility for isshin to be involved with the royal guard.
I thought kenpachi couldnt hide his reiatsu cuz its so much and he doesnt want to, meanwhile ichigo couldnt since hes a noob at being a shinigami :p

and yes isshin is the man :D

i dont see why it would be too big for him to be in the royal guard. first of all, he wears his white jacket over his shoulder which means that he has the power of a captain but at the same time, he isn't in soul society and the people from SS dont recognize him and he was introduces as a powerful shinigami right when we realized that aizen has something huge planned and he also seems to know what is going on with the hollows and whatnot

hollowdemon
January 05, 2008, 01:39 PM
yeah thats why im not surprised if he happens to be involved with the royal guard since it could probably relate to why SS kicked urahara out could be because its involved with isshins role in the royal guard too. He might be the one that ended up helping out urahara and they both flee to karakura town to hide there.
It would be crazy too of isshin could tap into the vaizard power like his son did and it would kinda make sense too if he can. That way we can see where ichigo got the ability to tap into that power, other than acquiring his shinigami power back by that method urahara did which caused him to go hollow. :D

SaGaMaN
January 29, 2008, 03:36 AM
i dunno if anyone has said this already (im not about to read every post) but ive been thinking about this for a while now. the old man captain mentions nonchalantly that soul society has a king and all that other regal jive. this suggests that this is only a ceremonial position of sorts, not too important, so the revelation that follows wouldnt be totally ridiculous:
isshin is the king--or maybe the heir prince--theyll be the same thing eventually. youichi is a princess of one of the 4? noble clans of seireitei, and i think kaien, ganju's older brother would be the head of the shiba clan. my point is most these heads of clans/nobility can be ordinary joe shmo type people, (with the exception of byakuya) nothing too majestic. isshin and urahara seem like theyre old aquaintances if not friends. the way i saw their conversation after isshin avenges his babymama, urahara seems kinda respectful and wary of his words. this is also one of the only times there isnt any trace of evasion, humour, or unseriousness he usually exhibits with other people. he doesnt come out and say it but you may as well substitute some -sama honorifics the way he addresses isshin. the content of their exchange is very limited and very brief so not many oppurtunities are there for clarification--later on the author will introduce an idea or divulge something and everything will make sense, and work that into everything from then on (think kishimotos recent incorporation of the chakra types).
here are the facts: the gigai given to isshin is similar to rukias as it depletes the spiritual powers over time and hides the individual in a sense. isshin is a captain-class shinigami as seen by the vest the captains wear he wears on the shoulder like it aint no thang. in his monologue he also implies he has captain capabilities. even before ichigo dies and barely makes it back to shinigami stautus (which is how i believe the vaizard come to be), when all hes got is a transfer of ichigos power, he has lidicurous amount of reiatsu, maybe a "kingly" amount?!?,0.< many people aknowledge it: rukia, ishida, renji, etc.
so lets say isshin and urahara were bff back in the day not unlike urahara and youichi. they all grow up and become bosses. isshin knows whats coming but is just not about ascending any throne or maybe hes fed up w/this afterlife and decides to live the first one for a bit. the only way out is to not be in soul society. with urahara's help, they fake isshin's death or just somehow manage to dissapear him and soon after join him in the real world to wait on a superior.
not too unbelievable huh? i know its long but i wanted to make a nice inaugural post, i was touched by the final words from the DB feedback forum v4. i was all giddy onetime.
respect

Tsukisama
January 29, 2008, 05:58 PM
i dunno if anyone has said this already (im not about to read every post) but ive been thinking about this for a while now. the old man captain mentions nonchalantly that soul society has a king and all that other regal jive. this suggests that this is only a ceremonial position of sorts, not too important, so the revelation that follows wouldnt be totally ridiculous:
isshin is the king--or maybe the heir prince--theyll be the same thing eventually. youichi is a princess of one of the 4? noble clans of seireitei, and i think kaien, ganju's older brother would be the head of the shiba clan. my point is most these heads of clans/nobility can be ordinary joe shmo type people, (with the exception of byakuya) nothing too majestic. isshin and urahara seem like theyre old aquaintances if not friends. the way i saw their conversation after isshin avenges his babymama, urahara seems kinda respectful and wary of his words. this is also one of the only times there isnt any trace of evasion, humour, or unseriousness he usually exhibits with other people. he doesnt come out and say it but you may as well substitute some -sama honorifics the way he addresses isshin. the content of their exchange is very limited and very brief so not many oppurtunities are there for clarification--later on the author will introduce an idea or divulge something and everything will make sense, and work that into everything from then on (think kishimotos recent incorporation of the chakra types).
here are the facts: the gigai given to isshin is similar to rukias as it depletes the spiritual powers over time and hides the individual in a sense. isshin is a captain-class shinigami as seen by the vest the captains wear he wears on the shoulder like it aint no thang. in his monologue he also implies he has captain capabilities. even before ichigo dies and barely makes it back to shinigami stautus (which is how i believe the vaizard come to be), when all hes got is a transfer of ichigos power, he has lidicurous amount of reiatsu, maybe a "kingly" amount?!?,0.< many people aknowledge it: rukia, ishida, renji, etc.
so lets say isshin and urahara were bff back in the day not unlike urahara and youichi. they all grow up and become bosses. isshin knows whats coming but is just not about ascending any throne or maybe hes fed up w/this afterlife and decides to live the first one for a bit. the only way out is to not be in soul society. with urahara's help, they fake isshin's death or just somehow manage to dissapear him and soon after join him in the real world to wait on a superior.
not too unbelievable huh? i know its long but i wanted to make a nice inaugural post, i was touched by the final words from the DB feedback forum v4. i was all giddy onetime.
respect

And it certainly is lovely inaugural post. :tem

Although I have that idea a lot less often, it certainly is no less possible than the royal guard theory. I honestly have not really considered Isshin being the king, but since you bring it up, it doesn't sound that bad (and I'll give it my best shot).

From what we know about the king, he lives in another dimension than SS and can only be reached using the King's Key. Well, Earth is another dimension, and perhaps the King's Key is not necessarily a way to get to him but a way to unlock his full power. Apparently, Isshin only recently regained what power we saw him display. Perhaps, the increased spiritual activity in Karakura Town that is awakening the spiritual abilities of many of the local students is also awakening Isshin's power, i.e., acting as a key to his locked powers.

If Isshin were the spirit king, then perhaps Urahara and Yoruichi aren't really outcasts but were promoted to being members of the royal guard. If the king is going to be living on Earth, then it would only make sense for the royal guard to be in the same location as him: Karakura Town. I have always been suspect of why an outcast like Urahara lives pretty commonly in KK Town, and no one from SS seems to care. Also, the creation of gigai that make you undetecable and drain your reiatsu might be something troublesome for SS to deal with and it is understandable to ban their use, but it does not seem like it's a good reason for Urahara to be sent into exile simply for creating them. Perhaps the whole exile thing was just a cover for Urahara new assignment as a royal guard.

Just look at Yoruichi. Everyone in SS thought she had died (or at least run away), but now that she knows she's alive and living in KK, again no one cares to make her return. It's not like she was ever sent into exile like Urahara; so, like in any military, when someone is AWOL, they are supposed to be brought back at least for questioning like when Rukia was ordered to return. With her skills, if I were in charge, I would promote her to the royal guard, same with Urahara.

That also brings up the members of the Urahara shop. We know that Tessai has to have some relation to the shinigami. We have seen cast a level 99 kido spell without reciting the incantation. Having seen Aizen use a level 90 without incantation, we know that is a difficult task, and Aizen even said that when casted it, it was not at full strength. When Tessai cast his binding spell on Ichigo, he was not really that rushed for time that he could not simply say the incantation for maximum effect. What does that imply? Either he did not care whether his spell was not at its full potential, or his mastery of kido is so great that he does not need to recite the incantation for maximum effect. Of the two, I'm more inclined to believe the latter option. This level of skill makes me think that Tessai is also an extremely skilled shinigami and perhaps another member of the royal guard.

The other two shop members, Jinta and Ururu, are not normal kids. We know that Ururu is freakishly powerful, and Jinta has yet to display any sort of super-amazing strength, but neither of them have really had that mush exposure to danger in manga. Perhaps even they have a role in royal guard too.

Ichigo having this unbelievable strength could also be a result of his father being spirit king, but I can't think of why it would be very supportive of his father's royalty in any exclusive way. So, that's about all of the support I can think of for Isshin being the king.

There are several things I can name which do not support Isshin being the spirit king. Firstly, although I said that the ouken could just be a metaphor for awakening the powers of the spirit king, the fact still remains that Yamamoto expressly stated that its purpose was to open the space to the spirit king's palace (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/223/07/). This also means that the spirit king does not live on Earth but somewhere that can only accessed by that key. That's pretty much the main reason; everything else is just logical inferences like "why would the spirit king go way back with Urahara and a quincy," "why would the wife of the spirit king be allowed to die so easily if the royal family is supposed to be constantly guarded by the royal guard (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/223/07/)," or "if Ichigo is so strong because of his father being spirit king, why are his sisters so weak in comparison."

Windmillblade
January 29, 2008, 07:46 PM
it would very well make sense if isshin happens to have a level or two higher than the normal captains but then i wonder where would urahara fall in if hes stronger than the captains ?
:D

well aizen said you can use the hollowzation crystal if youhave at least twice the power of a captin. Urahara used it on ichigo so maybe he is as strong. He doesnt look like he struggles against espadas.

Neuroff
January 29, 2008, 08:56 PM
Urahara didn't use the Hougyoku on Ichigo...

genkizen
January 29, 2008, 11:59 PM
I still think Ichigo's father is a part of the royal guard and not the king himself, although that is a pretty interesting thought.

It's gonna be a quite a while i tihnk b4 we find out anything more about the key, the spirit king and all that. There is actually a lot of unresolved issues in bleach that were kind of said offhandedly like this spirit king and the dimension he lives in deal. Like the name Kenpachi. the Kenpachi we know named himself such because that is the name given to the shinigami that comes around every few hundred years to be uber powerful. And i remember during the soul society arc there was some stuff about soul society getting invaded by rioka periodically (every 1000 years or so) which made me think all of this is part of a greater never ending cycle.

patedecarne
January 30, 2008, 06:01 AM
Well, at least the theory that Isshin could be the former taichou of 5º squad is over now, because, we can see a picture of the former 5º taichou in a new bleach Game, and his name is Seigen, and usually kubo himself had a hand on these games, sometimes creating the canon before manga(nejibana for exampl)...

And the most obvious theory now is the royal guard, because there's nothing more to think about the Isshin's past...

Silhouette
February 08, 2008, 03:06 AM
Urahara to Isshin after Isshin gained back his shinigami powers:" It would be problematic if you became weaker and blamed me for it, how does it feel? to take form of a shinigami that you abandoned 20 years ago? "
Based on the above quote, Isshin freely and deliberately got rid of his shinigami powers and Urahara is the one who helped him in doing that. My theory is that Urahara gave Isshin a permanent human body at the cost of losing his shinigami powers.
As to why Isshin has done that, my theory is that Ichigo's mother is a royalty of SS. Isshin was her guard but due the the strict class rules of SS, their love couldn't advance. Due to the nature of Urahara's position as the head of the scientific squad and Yoruichi the head of intelligence and police , they had contact with royalty and knew Isshin and his wife. Yoruichi helped Isshin and his wife escape from the royal palace and Urahara gave them thier permanent human bodies at the cost of the couple's shingami powers. Urahara and Yoruichi were kicked out of SS after that.
Another theory is that Ichigo's mom was a human and Isshin, a royalty bored as hell, runs from the royal palace, sees her, falls in love with her and ask for Urahara's help to make it possible to live in the material world. Ishida senior , a doctor, was trying to win over Masaki (Ichigo's mom) then and so Isshin -feeling threatened- gets his medicine degree and sweeps Masaki off her feet first. Kourisaki Isshin and Ishida senior have been enemies since then (well...Isshin is cool about it but Ishida's father is still sour)

Paper
March 29, 2008, 11:35 PM
now, i haven't done all my homework on this idea, but do you think it could be possible that isshin is the retired taicho of the 3rd div? it kinda fits in...but i'm not to keen on the timeline...then again, it could be possible that he just kept on hopping from gigai to gigai...then again urahara developed the gigai long after the 3rd taicho retired....oh man....but still, any thoughts?

Rephrased title

weixiaobao
March 30, 2008, 12:06 AM
well, after looking into all formers captains and current captains' time line.. I think Isshin may not be even a captain.. the only possible explanation of his strength and not being a captain (since his shinigami robe has no division mark) he maybe an ex- royal guard..

Paper
March 30, 2008, 12:10 AM
hmmm, even better :D its plausible... but if he were don't you think he'd be wearing something different? i mean he's just wearing a regular shinigami robe...

Tsukisama
March 30, 2008, 12:16 AM
All that we know about Isshin's past so far is that he had captain-level reiatsu and that he lost his shinigami powers twenty years ago.

Isshin being the retired 3rd captain does not really make much sense. Why would he have just lost his powers? Why would he know Urahara personally? Why would a retired captain suddenly go off the radar like that? It's not like the retired captain was made to seem like some sort of mysterious person that might have more to him/her.

I don't think that Isshin is someone that has made an appearance in the previous chapter. The gaiden will last for several chapters. He does not have to appear in this one.

Paper
March 30, 2008, 12:19 AM
yes, but it is a posibility. a possibility which can't just be tossed aside...and besides, the gaiden will surely have isshin, i don't think kubo's gonna pass off a chance to whet his reader's apetites...

Razh
March 30, 2008, 11:58 AM
I think he was a captain. Notice the markings on the bottom of his cape on this page;
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/187/12-13/
So far, I've only seen those on captains.

Then we have him mentioning captain level shingamis zanpakuto controll, and then his talk with Urahara, who treats him like an equal.

But I think he was captain after Shinji and the others left, since Shinji didn't recognize his reiatsu while he was fighting Fisher.
Either that, or his reiatsu changed some way. Beats me...

JioFreed666
March 30, 2008, 01:05 PM
No one knows the Kurosaki name and connects Ichigo with Isshin instantly, in both the soul society or among the vizards , so it's reasonable to believe what weixiaobao said at the end of their post more then the original Theroy. Or that he's of even higher standing then that ABOVE weixiaobao's theory like one of the actual protectors of "the king" himself and makes me wonder now since They moved K-town pretty much into K-town.....where is all the people who have high spiritial power at least the power to see the dead which are Karin,Yuzu, Keigo Asano(who was able to see spirits in the last chapters he was in and saw the opening of the gate in HM),Mizuiro Kojima(Same as Asano),Tatsuki Arisawa (who was also there at opening of the gate), I believe Chizuru Honshō also has the power to see spirits, and of course KON AND ISSHIN!!

Darek Khort
March 31, 2008, 01:52 AM
I reckon Isshin is Royal Guard.
The fact that they call going to Squad 0 'retirement' obviously means they want to keep it a secret. Isshin could very much still be guarding "The King", but in secret.
Isshin's clothing when he goes into Shinigami-mode also looks like that of Captain's in terms of the white part; except it is tied to his side. Perhaps that is to show he was previously Captain, but 'retired'.
For some reason I reckon this Hikifune person who retired from 12th Division to Squad 0 most likely also resides in K-town.

Though the only reason for that would be Isshin being there for all his son's life so far.
Also, was Ichigo's mother REALLY a human? Or could she have been a shinigami as well?

Paper
March 31, 2008, 01:58 AM
she's human...if she were a retired taicho she could have killed grand fisher...but a normal shinigami...hmmm...i still don't think so.

JioFreed666
March 31, 2008, 02:05 AM
she's human...if she were a retired taicho she could have killed grand fisher...but a normal shinigami...hmmm...i still don't think so.

She was most likely a human that or a normal low seated shinigami or non seated shinigami

Razh
March 31, 2008, 05:34 AM
I reckon Isshin is Royal Guard.
The fact that they call going to Squad 0 'retirement' obviously means they want to keep it a secret. Isshin could very much still be guarding "The King", but in secret.
Isshin's clothing when he goes into Shinigami-mode also looks like that of Captain's in terms of the white part; except it is tied to his side. Perhaps that is to show he was previously Captain, but 'retired'.
For some reason I reckon this Hikifune person who retired from 12th Division to Squad 0 most likely also resides in K-town.

Though the only reason for that would be Isshin being there for all his son's life so far.
Also, was Ichigo's mother REALLY a human? Or could she have been a shinigami as well?

Concerning the royal guard, we don't know nothing about them.
But I find it hard to believe that Royal Guard is protecting Spirit King by living on Earth and having families. That's not exactly what Royal Guard do. Protect the king in secret from another dimension. They stay close to him.
And I think that Royal Guard have better clothes than a piece of old captain uniform on their left shoulder.

Travis
March 31, 2008, 06:56 PM
When Urahara and Isshin have their little conversation after Grand Fisher dies, Urahara mentions something about it being 20 years since Isshin has been in a shinigami body. Just something to note. So he may have not even left SS during the time we're seeing in the Gaiden or when Urahara left.
[hr]

Concerning the royal guard, we don't know nothing about them.
But I find it hard to believe that Royal Guard is protecting Spirit King by living on Earth and having families. That's not exactly what Royal Guard do. Protect the king in secret from another dimension. They stay close to him.
And I think that Royal Guard have better clothes than a piece of old captain uniform on their left shoulder.

I don't think he is a royal guard now, but they could have a captain outfit or something simliar considering you're promoted from captain to royal guard.

janoose
March 31, 2008, 07:57 PM
Hi I was re-reading the older manga this weekend. Anyways I found this one is interested http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/04/, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/144/17/
Basically these two is about Renji vs. Byakuya's fight. Both Rukia and Zaraki doesn't recognize Byakuya's spiritual pressure.

The reason I mentioned this is because I always thought ppl who know them would recognize their spiritual pressure so I agreed with ppl saying that the Vizards don't know Isshin however based on those 2 pages I read I don't think that is the case.

Paper
March 31, 2008, 08:20 PM
nice find! though i don't recall ever seeing that one page....i must have gotten a crappy copy from my friend...hmhmhmhm...

Razh
March 31, 2008, 09:10 PM
Basically these two is about Renji vs. Byakuya's fight. Both Rukia and Zaraki doesn't recognize Byakuya's spiritual pressure.


It's a nice find. But Zaraki isn't good at recognizing reiatsu. At least he wasn't back then. He even says so himself later when fighting Tousen. And as for Rukia it's possible that she couldn't recognize Byakuya's reiatsu because of a huge difference when he is using Bankai.

Could be same though, with Shinji. Maybe he didn't recognize Isshin's reiatsu because a lot of time had passed. But I kinda think that he came after Vizard captains left. There was a lot of space to fill, that's for sure.

As for being a Royal Guard, I don't think you can retire that easilly from it.
I figure, becoming a Royal Guard is a great honour, but you have to let go of a lot of things, if you want to do your job right.
Who knows. I mean, we don't exactly know a lot about King's dimension and how many people reside there.

Paper
March 31, 2008, 09:20 PM
getting the position of RG is quite hard too...i don't think isshin would have ever given it up if he was one.... taicho seems more plausible...

the difference in the reiatsu is also good point. but wouldn't someone like yama-ji, unohana, ukitake, or kyorau recognize it? at least yama-ji and unohana...

JioFreed666
April 01, 2008, 02:45 AM
Paperboy thank you for smashing that before I saw that anyway It might have been because neither had seen His power used to the max level that Rukia couldn't tell it was her brother and there hasn't been a really big fight in a while in Soul Society so Kenpachi shouldn't have known especially since he's been a captain for such a short period of time (everyone captain during the soul soceity arc was around when Kenpachi became a captain expect for Hitsuguya)

Decorus
April 01, 2008, 09:31 AM
Isshin likely is a Captain who fell in love with a mortal woman he saved from a Hollow and choose to become human to live with her abandoning his Shinigami Nature using the Gigai to become human which leads to the whole why didn't Urahara stick his toy in Isshin?

Tsukisama
April 01, 2008, 10:38 AM
Isshin likely is a Captain who fell in love with a mortal woman he saved from a Hollow and choose to become human to live with her abandoning his Shinigami Nature using the Gigai to become human which leads to the whole why didn't Urahara stick his toy in Isshin?

That is a very good question! I hadn't thought of that. If Urahara had a hand in Isshin's disappearance, Isshin would have been a good candidate as a hiding place for Hougyoku.

I sincerely hope that the first part of your post is not correct. I would lose any respect I have gained for Isshin if he decided to stop being a captain just because some mortal woman caught his eye. Also, that really would not explain why no one recognizes the name "Kurosaki" in SS.

Richo
April 01, 2008, 10:50 AM
Hi I was re-reading the older manga this weekend. Anyways I found this one is interested http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/04/, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/144/17/
Basically these two is about Renji vs. Byakuya's fight. Both Rukia and Zaraki doesn't recognize Byakuya's spiritual pressure.

The reason I mentioned this is because I always thought ppl who know them would recognize their spiritual pressure so I agreed with ppl saying that the Vizards don't know Isshin however based on those 2 pages I read I don't think that is the case.

it was both times ichigo his reiatsu, due to the reason ichigo gained captain class reiatsu she didnt know from who it was. During the Ichigo vs byakuya fight ichigo was in bankai and had a short duration hollow transformation (orihime mentioned that ichigo his reiatsu changed to something she didnt know about, this was during ichigo vs yammi)


That is a very good question! I hadn't thought of that. If Urahara had a hand in Isshin's disappearance, Isshin would have been a good candidate as a hiding place for Hougyoku.

I sincerely hope that the first part of your post is not correct. I would lose any respect I have gained for Isshin if he decided to stop being a captain just because some mortal woman caught his eye. Also, that really would not explain why no one recognizes the name "Kurosaki" in SS.
I doubt isshin would even agree to such thing (nor would anyone else), he sealed it away in rukia in secret.

Tsukisama
April 01, 2008, 10:58 AM
I doubt isshin would even agree to such thing (nor would anyone else), he sealed it away in rukia in secret.

Well, we don't know that having the Hougyoku inside of the shinigami hurts them in any way. The only known down side about being the hiding place is that Urahara wants the Hougyoku to stay hidden forever, meaning that he would have to make the host an undetectable human, but if Isshin actually came to Urahara requesting to be in one of those gigai like most people theorizes, then why would it be unreasonable for Urahara to make being the Hougyoku's keeper the price for his help, especially since the host does not seem to suffer any perceivable adverse effects?

Thereturnofcobra
April 01, 2008, 11:10 AM
why does isshin have to be in the royal guard the fact is that some of the 13 are accounted for yet, mainly the captain over the 6th division so yeah just an idea:D

weixiaobao
April 01, 2008, 02:26 PM
why does isshin have to be in the royal guard the fact is that some of the 13 are accounted for yet, mainly the captain over the 6th division so yeah just an idea:D

that's can not be since :jbya 's promotion to captain was way more than 20 years ago... and isshin lost his shinigami power around 20 years ago..

jocouslie
April 01, 2008, 02:43 PM
i think he is a captain or an ex-captain, because of this pic
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/187/17/

there he is explaining shinigami captains' zanpakutou. why would he explain those things if he isn't a captain or an ex-captain?

JioFreed666
April 01, 2008, 03:47 PM
i think he is a captain or an ex-captain, because of this pic
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/187/17/

there he is explaining shinigami captains' zanpakutou. why would he explain those things if he isn't a captain or an ex-captain?

we never said he wasn't remember Royal Guard is A STEP ABOVE captain and he might be even higher then that he could be like I've suggested before the king's son or the king himself

Tsukisama
April 01, 2008, 04:00 PM
i think he is a captain or an ex-captain, because of this pic
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/187/17/

there he is explaining shinigami captains' zanpakutou. why would he explain those things if he isn't a captain or an ex-captain?

The royal guard seems to be made of promoted captains. Referring to his power as captain-level and being in the royal guard would thus not be mutually exclusive.

gfire2
April 01, 2008, 04:27 PM
even with ishins decrease in spirit power his still got a massive spirit power so he had to be some highly ranked officer and he could of changed his surname when he came to the human world.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/09/

from this attitude it seems like the vaizards and isshin do not know of each, but isshin obviousli has links with ishida's dad who is a human (say 40 years old) so it would seem that isshin probably came to the human world from 20-30 years ago and met both urahara and ishida's dad from that time. so i would assume that isshin wasnt a captain when the vaizards were still captains.

so maybe byakuya took isshins spot as captain 20 years ago?

Neuroff
April 01, 2008, 05:04 PM
even with ishins decrease in spirit power his still got a massive spirit power so he had to be some highly ranked officer and he could of changed his surname when he came to the human world.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/09/

from this attitude it seems like the vaizards and isshin do not know of each, but isshin obviousli has links with ishida's dad who is a human (say 40 years old) so it would seem that isshin probably came to the human world from 20-30 years ago and met both urahara and ishida's dad from that time. so i would assume that isshin wasnt a captain when the vaizards were still captains.

so maybe byakuya took isshins spot as captain 20 years ago?
He left way before that. Rukia has been a shinigami for 50 years or so and she doesn't recognize Isshin.

Tsukisama
April 01, 2008, 05:36 PM
even with ishins decrease in spirit power his still got a massive spirit power so he had to be some highly ranked officer and he could of changed his surname when he came to the human world.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/09/

from this attitude it seems like the vaizards and isshin do not know of each, but isshin obviousli has links with ishida's dad who is a human (say 40 years old) so it would seem that isshin probably came to the human world from 20-30 years ago and met both urahara and ishida's dad from that time. so i would assume that isshin wasnt a captain when the vaizards were still captains.

so maybe byakuya took isshins spot as captain 20 years ago?

Isshin lost his shinigami powers 20 years ago. Perhaps he may have left SS before then.

Byakuya became a captain around 50 years ago.

Travis
April 01, 2008, 06:32 PM
That is a very good question! I hadn't thought of that. If Urahara had a hand in Isshin's disappearance, Isshin would have been a good candidate as a hiding place for Hougyoku.

I sincerely hope that the first part of your post is not correct. I would lose any respect I have gained for Isshin if he decided to stop being a captain just because some mortal woman caught his eye. Also, that really would not explain why no one recognizes the name "Kurosaki" in SS.

I believe that name is fake. It wouldn't be odd for him to change his name while starting a new life. Isshin is probably part of his real name but the Kurosaki part is new. I don't understand Japanese names very well. Like I know last name is first and the first name is last, but sometimes he's called Kurosaki-kun instead of Ichigo.

Anyways I don't know what event led him to Karakura town, but there's no doubt that after he met Masaki he became human and started a family. Whipped. :D :p

Don't know why Urahara didn't put the hougykou into him. There might not even be a good reason for that.

Tsukisama
April 01, 2008, 06:37 PM
I believe that name is fake. It wouldn't be odd for him to change his name while starting a new life. Isshin is probably part of his real name but the Kurosaki part is new. I don't understand Japanese names very well. Like I know last name is first and the first name is last, but sometimes he's called Kurosaki-kun instead of Ichigo.

"Kurosaki" could be a fake name, or perhaps it is Masaki's last name and Isshin took that name when he married her. It is not uncommon (at least in manga and anime) for Japanese men to decide to take the last name of the wife.

In Japan, it is common to address people by their last names instead of their first names. Addressing someone, even classmates, by their first name is a very personal form of address; so, they are probably used to addressing each other by their last name from school.

Razh
April 02, 2008, 03:10 AM
Regarding the reason of planting Hougyoku into Rukia instead into Isshin, it's easilly possible that he thought it would be safer for it to be hidden into someone who resides in Soul Society. Just look at Aizen's plan, and what he had to do to get it.

Tsukisama
April 02, 2008, 07:17 AM
Regarding the reason of planting Hougyoku into Rukia instead into Isshin, it's easilly possible that he thought it would be safer for it to be hidden into someone who resides in Soul Society. Just look at Aizen's plan, and what he had to do to get it.

The only problem with that theory is that Urahara wanted the Hougyoku host to be hidden in the real world; thus he tricked Rukia into reiatsu-draining gigai.

Paper
April 02, 2008, 08:58 AM
well, with that said, i isshin just didn't want any part of it, or urahara didn't want isshin to have little reistsu should the time come that he needs to be put in actiona gain...hmhm..

Razh
April 02, 2008, 11:17 AM
The only problem with that theory is that Urahara wanted the Hougyoku host to be hidden in the real world; thus he tricked Rukia into reiatsu-draining gigai.

I knew there had to be some catch, but I couldn't remember :amuse

You know this last chapter, where they mention Kenpachi, and how he never listens to anyone. Is it possible that that was Isshin?
Since I can't remeber how long it was before Zaraki killed the previous 11-th division captain (did he kill him?), I can't really tell. I'm not saying that he was the one who lost to Zaraki, but the one before that.
It's just something about his relaxed nature, but it's like some event made him more serious.
But on the other hand, when he was talking to Urahara, it seemed like Urahara knew more about Vizards than him.

It's just that he is more simmilar to Zaraki than to any other captain we have seen. But that of course, doesn't have to mean anything.

Paper
April 02, 2008, 11:26 AM
ken-chan killed his predecessor...supposedly... i'm not too sure on what happens if a soul in SS dies, but i don't think they become human...

on a different note, isshin also knows uryuu's father, and talked to him in the same relaxed manner, as if they were old friends...i wonder what this has to do with whats currently in play...

Razh
April 02, 2008, 12:18 PM
ken-chan killed his predecessor...supposedly... i'm not too sure on what happens if a soul in SS dies, but i don't think they become human...

Read again. I meant the one before the one Zaraki pawned...

Paper
April 02, 2008, 12:22 PM
hm...missed that. i just skim through things when i get lazy.

Tsukisama
April 02, 2008, 03:37 PM
I knew there had to be some catch, but I couldn't remember :amuse

You know this last chapter, where they mention Kenpachi, and how he never listens to anyone. Is it possible that that was Isshin?
Since I can't remeber how long it was before Zaraki killed the previous 11-th division captain (did he kill him?), I can't really tell. I'm not saying that he was the one who lost to Zaraki, but the one before that.
It's just something about his relaxed nature, but it's like some event made him more serious.
But on the other hand, when he was talking to Urahara, it seemed like Urahara knew more about Vizards than him.

It's just that he is more simmilar to Zaraki than to any other captain we have seen. But that of course, doesn't have to mean anything.


It is possible for Isshin to be the current Kenpachi, but I doubt it. Isshin does not seem like the 11th division type to me. I still believe he is more likely to be a member of Squad 0.

JioFreed666
April 03, 2008, 12:23 AM
It is possible for Isshin to be the current Kenpachi, but I doubt it. Isshin does not seem like the 11th division type to me. I still believe he is more likely to be a member of Squad 0.

I could see Isshin as a kenpachi who wanted to get away from it all and settle down in the human world so he faked his death during the fight with the current Kenpachi

weixiaobao
April 03, 2008, 12:28 AM
kenpachi are violent, fight loving beast.. i doubt none of them want to settle down..

Paper
April 03, 2008, 12:29 AM
@jf666- if thats so, then aizen ripped isshin off! :loool but wouldn't that mean that his zanpakutou is kidou based? arn't kenpachi supposed to be physically strong as opposed to kidou users?

JioFreed666
April 03, 2008, 12:43 AM
we've only seen one kenpachi so we don't know what the first ones where like and remember

Kenpachi means you just kill alot of people and take the dirty jobs that sometimes even the assassination squad won't do not that you are psycho who enjoys killing every second of every day but you do some what enjoy it

and after a few 100 years with little to no one near your level I would get bored and want to see how strong my children would become(Isshin coming into his son's room and drop kicking him out of no where "GOOD MOOOORING ICHIIIGOO!!!") and still have some of my fighting spirit

and just like we didn't know until last week that two Vizards where captains and one was even the captain the proceeded Aizen himself we don't know what Isshin's Zanpakuto's ability is in fact it looks just like a normal zanpakuto

weixiaobao
April 03, 2008, 12:48 AM
we've only seen one kenpachi so we don't know what the first ones where like

we still get some idea in the conversation in chapter -10
so far we learn that he is a pig-like attitude, lazy, doesn't want to follow other, defeat the previous kenpachi.. but he could probably be violent too (my guess) ..

Though i could see that isshin a kenpachi..

Paper
April 03, 2008, 12:51 AM
@jf666- :rofl if they lived in the US or UK ichigo could have sued isshins ass for dropkicking him...:rofl

but what about that other point i put? i don't think it would have been easy for isshin to fake his death (granting that he did), even if the taicho of the 12th helped him out....if he was a kenpachi, that means that his zanpakutou isn't kidou based (as opposed to aizen, when he faked his death), thus eliminating hypnotism...

JioFreed666
April 03, 2008, 12:54 AM
re read pleas sorry about that
[hr]

@jf666- :rofl if they lived in the US or UK ichigo could have sued isshins ass for dropckicking him...:rofl

but what about that other point i put? i don't think it would have been easy for isshin to fake his death (granting that he did), even if the taicho of the 12th helped him out....if he was a kenpachi, that means that his zanpakutou isn't kidou based (as opposed to aizen, when he faked his death), thus eliminating hypnotism...

we don't know what his Zanpakuto is only that it looks like a normal zanpakuto

Paper
April 03, 2008, 01:01 AM
yeah, but granting the reputation of the kenpachi title holders, i don't think that he would have been one if he was using a kidou based one...

JioFreed666
April 03, 2008, 01:06 AM
Kenpachi's have been known for all or nothing drag out fights yes but did it ever say there zanpakutos weren't kidou based NO!

Paper
April 03, 2008, 01:09 AM
it'd be pretty odd to see one with a kidou based one....the recklessness doesn't match kidou... at least not IMO

JioFreed666
April 03, 2008, 01:23 AM
Kenpachi dosen't mean your reckless just means you enjoy a fight

Paper
April 03, 2008, 01:24 AM
it's all or nothing....doesn't that sound reckless to you?

JioFreed666
April 03, 2008, 01:38 AM
is that all the kenpachi's ways? or is that the one we know who was able to kil lthe last one

Paper
April 03, 2008, 01:42 AM
Kenpachi's have been known for all or nothing drag out fights yes but did it ever say there zanpakutos weren't kidou based NO!

you said it yourself earlier.....though i would be mistaken if you meant zaraki as opposed to all the previous kenpachi. if thats so, then there's something wrong with your sentence.

JioFreed666
April 03, 2008, 02:13 AM
reckless isn't the way to put it in during some fights while most of the one's the current kenpachi dose are reckless because he charges in not knowing if he will die while the other kenpachis probably at least sized up their enemy before choosing to fight and it they chose to fight it was up to them and once they pick to fight it is from there on out it's all are nothing because kenpachi said it himself near the end of the last fight "I could die" even thought he said it as if it were out of an annoyance it was clear it was the truth

Paper
April 03, 2008, 02:20 AM
you're only talking about the current one......we're talking about the past ones...and as you stated, the past ones were reckless as well.

"Kenpachi's have been known for all or nothing drag out fights yes but did it ever say there zanpakutos weren't kidou based NO!"

JioFreed666
April 03, 2008, 12:35 PM
you're only talking about the current one......we're talking about the past ones...and as you stated, the past ones were reckless as well.

"Kenpachi's have been known for all or nothing drag out fights yes but did it ever say there zanpakutos weren't kidou based NO!"

If you noticed I mentioned the last message that unlike the current one "they probably sized up the person they fought!!!" and if they choose to fight the person it was all out fighting unlike the current one who walks into situations not knowing the full situation

Paper
April 03, 2008, 12:49 PM
dude are you just lazy to type so you make do with crappy sentences? "Kenpachi's have been known for all or nothing drag out fights yes but did it ever say there zanpakutos weren't kidou based NO!" suggests that all the kenpachi are reckless....then you later on say that it's only zaraki....honestly man, reading a wall of text is boring enough, having to decipher sentences makes it even more boring...

but ok, lets leave that as that and move on to a more constructive conversation.

JioFreed666
April 03, 2008, 02:16 PM
dude are you just lazy to type so you make do with crappy sentences? "Kenpachi's have been known for all or nothing drag out fights yes but did it ever say there zanpakutos weren't kidou based NO!" suggests that all the kenpachi are reckless....then you later on say that it's only zaraki....honestly man, reading a wall of text is boring enough, having to decipher sentences makes it even more boring...

but ok, lets leave that as that and move on to a more constructive conversation.

your not reading my shit right. Here's what I'm saying they all do long drawn out all are nothing fights YES they all fight with all they have. the current one is the only one of all of them who would go into a battle full knowing he might not win

gigantor21
April 03, 2008, 02:21 PM
Please tone it down, guys. And keep things on topic. This is something a lot of people have been interested in since Isshin first revealed his powers.

Thanks.

JioFreed666
April 03, 2008, 02:38 PM
if he is a kenpachi this is on topic

that's the bad thing about not knowing until we do it's all speculation

gigantor21
April 03, 2008, 02:55 PM
^ Well, there's no need to go at each other like that. We should just keep cool about it until we find out more, that's all.

On topic, I don't think Isshin is a Kenpachi, either. Based on the description of the old one, I'd expect someone similar to Zaraki--limited finess and technique to match their being a loose cannon. Isshin showed some high-grade sword technique when he took down GF, and he was very knowledgable, so it doesn't seem like a match IMO.

That said, I didn't think Yoruichi was a Captain either, so who knows? :p

JioFreed666
April 03, 2008, 03:14 PM
^ Well, there's no need to go at each other like that. We should just keep cool about it until we find out more, that's all.

On topic, I don't think Isshin is a Kenpachi, either. Based on the description of the old one, I'd expect someone similar to Zaraki--limited finess and technique to match their being a loose cannon. Isshin showed some high-grade sword technique when he took down GF, and he was very knowledgable, so it doesn't seem like a match IMO.

That said, I didn't think Yoruichi was a Captain either, so who knows? :p

we don't know how any kenpachi but the one know acts your just speculating just like and paper boy are

and as for Yoruichi I don't believe she was the previous 2nd division captain I think Soi-fon just choose to do both in other words subsidizing the assassination squad into the 13(14 if you include 0) guard and able to recruit Shinigami with assassination based Zanpakuto abilities into the group

Paper
April 04, 2008, 12:55 AM
it was never stated that yoruichi was a captain, but she was the leader of the assasination squad....and yes, soi-fon might have just done both to prove that she was better...it's like the relationship of ristuko and maya from evangelion but taken to the next level...

Razh
April 04, 2008, 04:52 AM
You two are going slightly offtopic.



On topic, I don't think Isshin is a Kenpachi, either. Based on the description of the old one, I'd expect someone similar to Zaraki--limited finess and technique to match their being a loose cannon. Isshin showed some high-grade sword technique when he took down GF, and he was very knowledgable, so it doesn't seem like a match IMO.



As I said, people change. We still don't know what happened to make Isshin leave SS. Maybe he was more reckless back in the day. Having children certainly changes a man. Real man anyway.

And as for Zaraki, who says every Kenpachi should be simmilar. I thought it was clear that Zaraki si pretty much unique. Besides, Zaraki isn't some brute that just swings his sword around like a lumberjack would cut down trees.
He has been fighting with a sword whole his life and his sword skill and battle instincts are superior. It's just that his Fighting style is more based on his own strenght and skill, than on his Zanpaktuo and Kidou (which he doesn't or can't use anyway).
Isshin didn't show anything in his fight against GF that would be of higher grade than anything Zaraki has shown. In fact, any other captain would probably own GF with one slash.

Paper
April 04, 2008, 05:27 AM
well it is possible for captains to kill GF easily and without much effort. but what about the fact that his reiatsu was able to reach SS when he killed GF? how would that come into play? ichigo has a lot of reiatsu, and it's been described as "oozing" at a point, but he's never attracted the attention of anyone directly from SS in SS, whereas isshin's one attack made quite an impact...

/discuss

Razh
April 04, 2008, 05:50 AM
well it is possible for captains to kill GF easily and without much effort. but what about the fact that his reiatsu was able to reach SS when he killed GF?

I don't recall that. What chaper was that in?

The only ones who obviously sensed his reitasu were Shinji, Ichigo and Urahara. At the end of the chapter, Shinigami assembly was shown, and then there is nothing few chapters later.

Paper
April 04, 2008, 06:08 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/04/

and ken-chan. if you want to know more, just read back a few pages...too lazy to collate the previous posts...

Razh
April 04, 2008, 07:14 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/04/

and ken-chan. if you want to know more, just read back a few pages...too lazy to collate the previous posts...

Is that your idea of a joke? That link of yours leads to chapter 143, where Zaraki sensed Byakuya's reiatsu when he activated Bankai during his fight with Renji.

Isshin was fighting GF in chapter 187.

... :confused:

Paper
April 04, 2008, 08:45 AM
got my numbers mixed up..nvmnd

/rollface

mck06
April 04, 2008, 01:15 PM
:D well Yoruichi was the captain of the 2nd division ^_^ and ishin personality looks almost the same as Aizen.

deathgod6664820
April 05, 2008, 01:28 PM
has anyone thought, maybe isshin had the Hougyoku inside him, thats why he lost his powers for over 20 years, and conceived ichigo with alot of sprit pressure and hollow powers. What if urahara and isshin plan on this happening? That would explain why urahara would know ichigo's potential being born from the hougyoku and with urahara being a sciencetist cant be ruin out. It would also explain why isshin does'nt want ichigo to know that hes a shinigami in thats why hes a so called bad parent. Know one understands why ichigo has such high sprit power and can progress so fast, being born from the hougyoku would make much since right? maybe i read to far into it.....

Paper
April 06, 2008, 02:30 AM
ichigo became a vaizard because of urahara...not because he was innately one...also, ichi originally got his powers by absorbing ruikia's remember? but it could be possible...

Hada-Kun
April 06, 2008, 04:04 AM
He didn't get his powers from rukia, read the chapters again. He had his own seperate shinigami powers hidden away. And on the same note since they were hidden and he couldn't access them, urahara did his little routine thatmade his inner world collapse so he could find it, etc etc which also hollowified his soul as the side effect.

Paper
April 06, 2008, 04:40 AM
hm..he supposedly took in part of rukia's power when he came in contact...gonna re-read the first few chapters to refresh my memory.