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sahugani
July 02, 2007, 01:47 AM
the latest chapter of Bleach is finally out and can be found HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=450462#post450462).

Take a guess as to what will happen as the fight continues next week

Vegetoacs
July 02, 2007, 03:28 AM
Oooo first first post :D

The fight will most likely continue next week with ichigo and grimmjaw on an equal footing. Grimmjaw did the typical opening suprise "i'm going to kick your ass to infinity and back" but ichigo came back at the end with an insane sized getsuga....although grimm didnt seem entirely effected.

I also get the feeling the chapter will end with ichigo's mask breaking. We've been given no answer as to how he's suddenly maintaining his mask for longer than 11 seconds. While we'll most likely be given some reason about reformed resolve, i doubt he can truely keep his mask up perfectly anew, without some reasoning as to why he can.

btn2k3
July 02, 2007, 04:11 AM
Something is funny...
How long has Ichigo had the mask on?

He started in the mask by blocking the attack that was going to destroy Ino.
Then he's still in the mask telling Ino that it will be alright and to put up a barrier around her and Nell.
Then he's off to the fight with GJ (even has the time to watch GJ release)....

I'm thinking its been a little longer then his 12 second limit.

Nafycuk
July 02, 2007, 07:43 AM
It is MUCH longer than 11 seconds I guess... That means he'd recieved some invicible power-up ) But as we can see It would go nowhere with just shooting KGT at GJ. Ichigo HAS to learn some new tricks. Maybe not the entierly new skill, but the combination. Like shooting Cero and KGT at the same time. I know it doesn't sound cool at all )))

And I really wanna see that broken chain on Tensa Zangetsu to crumble like it was with blue strips on the unreleased Zangetsu (first Abarai encounter). And HUGE ammount of rejatsu coming from Ichigo just blowing GJ away ))

5enbonzakur4
July 02, 2007, 07:45 AM
Has anyone noticed how he has continued to get more stripes on his mask the more times that he uses it? He has 11 stripes as of this chapter... I think it might correlate with the strength and duration of his use of the mask...

But anyways... I actually think that Ichigo is going to get owned throughout most of the chapter seeing as grimmjow blocked his g.t. and appears unscathed...

Either that or someone is going to break up the fight... Maybe yammi or someone like that...

Nafycuk
July 02, 2007, 08:24 AM
Or maybe at the very moment of Ichigo's mask crumbling Ulquiorra would come out.
But whom I REALLY want to see in action is Noitora. He is just so damn cool.
So my prediction is....

Ichigo would be pwned by the GJ, but not too hard. Then GJ will make some super-uber attack of his release state and hurt Ichigo a lot. But GJ would be stopped from the finishing blow by Ulquiorra. They'll start fighting. Ulquiorra would kick GJ's ass very brutally. But then... TA-DAM! Noitora arrives with words: "Yo! Still fucking around, bitch?" And Ulquiorra and Noitora start fighting, while Inoue heals Ichigo and GJ.
I like it )) But it's kinda for 10-15 chapters ahead )))

hasoon87
July 02, 2007, 09:40 AM
I predict some serious pwnage from both parties next chapter, in addition to a flashback into what was going on with ichigo when he was phased out after getting pwned by uli. It will probably lead to an explanation as to why he is so confident as well as why he can hold the mask for more than 11 seconds (assuming that he is in fact holding it for more than 11 seconds).

Also with regards to the more lines on his mask idea, I've looked over the first fight with masked ichigo and grim, and as far as i can tell, same number of stripes but they are just thicker in this chapter. Could be related to him gaining more control over his viazard form? eventually becoming half red and half white? Just my 2 cents.

hamadyaa
July 02, 2007, 11:40 AM
Or maybe at the very moment of Ichigo's mask crumbling Ulquiorra would come out.
But whom I REALLY want to see in action is Noitora. He is just so damn cool.
So my prediction is....

Ichigo would be pwned by the GJ, but not too hard. Then GJ will make some super-uber attack of his release state and hurt Ichigo a lot. But GJ would be stopped from the finishing blow by Ulquiorra. They'll start fighting. Ulquiorra would kick GJ's ass very brutally. But then... TA-DAM! Noitora arrives with words: "Yo! Still fucking around, bitch?" And Ulquiorra and Noitora start fighting, while Inoue heals Ichigo and GJ.
I like it )) But it's kinda for 10-15 chapters ahead )))

you have some seriousley cool ideas but i really dont think that noitora is coming out to fight uliquiora now that we know he aint number one. that leaves me to believe that noitora is either number one as he said or number 2 on par with number one and the strong riatsu he felt is probablt reinforcements that wont show up until GJ fight is over . as per the fight we will probably see hollow ichigo take control it would explain why the mask didnt break and it would rule out any majic trick that ichigo got out of his ass to keep that thing on there that long.

Zegna
July 02, 2007, 11:43 AM
I wrote that in the 281 discussion thread already but I am really confused about his ability to stay in his hollow form for so long!

But anyway it is really time for Ichigo to show some skill, he's getting pathetic again, so I predict (ok I really wish for it cuz it won't happen) that Hollow Ichigo, and I mean the real-deal Hollow Bad guy counterpart of Ichigo etc. shows us why he ain't just a horse but a damn King!

The King is dead! Long live the King

llamapie
July 02, 2007, 12:03 PM
Well Ichigo is gonna be pushed to his limit. Think about it. When he was doing the mask training with the vaizards he almost completely transformed. So I think this will happen and he will lose control, kill GJ in under a second and go on a rampage.

daniel1983
July 02, 2007, 12:33 PM
I think this fight will just be another 'regular' fight. Next chapter will probably be just another battle chapter possibly showing of a new skill from Ichigo (or him being completely dominated by GJ) then the end of the chapter will have someone showing up, GJ about to kill Ichigo, or Ichigo thinking that he defeated GJ.......

However, I am starting to like the rampage idea for this battle. Ichigo goes all ninetails on GJ killing him...but injuring/hurting/killing Inoue and Nell in the process. Then he comes back in control and realizes what he has done....then he goes to the darkside feeling ashamed for what he has done to his friends. Would be one good plot twist.....but I doubt it will happen.

Fortisdiablos
July 02, 2007, 01:01 PM
Assuming Ichigo has indeed passed the 11 second limit, I just wish I knew what the fundamental difference between him and the other Vaizards is. I want to know why they can fight with unreleased Zanpakutou and still be so powerful.

Nafycuk
July 02, 2007, 01:27 PM
I think that it would be too lame and predictable for Uchinaru Ichigo to take the trone. C'mon, everyone waits for it. And I really want to see Ichigo to beat somebody while being the King (ok, I know, I know he beated Doldoni, but it was not a fight to me). It's not cool to hope all the time that Inner Ichigo would come and save you. Be a man, show some balls ))

And 'bout Noitora... WTF?! How huge is that Hueco Mundo is?! It take so freaking long for an ESPADA to reach some area there?! Seriously. They DO have shunpo analogues - sonido and they are damn FAST! How long can Noitora make everyone wait.? There's an impression that Chad and Rukia are already brown bread! And I really do want to believe the idea of any reinforcments to come. But there are two ways for the plot to be developed.

1. Our good guys are totally pwned. And are thrown out from Hueco Mundo as a pile of shit. Then being recovered by squad 4 and other "helpers". Inoue is still being a hostage. The preparations for the winter war begin. And so on.

2. Reinforcements arrive. Soul Society AND Vaizards. Because I presume that the fights would never be the same again. There are few "good ones" capable of killing an Espada alone. I would bet on Kenpachi (OMG Kenpachi VS Noitora - the sweetiest thing ever!), Yamamoto Genryusai (Imagine Aizen sitting near the window watching the old geezer Espada fighting Yamamoto - "What a wonderful fireworks. Night is so bright in flames....") and Shinji (I DO believe that it is Shinji who has to beat GJ afterall). I want to have faith in Urahara, but I guess that Yami is the only one he can defeat solely (Yami is a slacker and can be pwned even by Hinamori :p). To fight somebody stronger he needs Yoruichi.
OOOOPS!... Forget about Ryuuken and Isshin... That goes 5 capable persons.... Oh, ok )))
Anyway, if they DO come, than there be some VERY serious fights. But fortunately Aizen would make some bad ass thing and kick out everyone from Hueco. Or just Old Man Yama would force everyone to fall back till winter...

Lord Rae
July 02, 2007, 02:55 PM
More and more I'm falling on my old prediction that Inoue is gonna reject the existence of here friends from entering HM... she has the ability to reject events... she could and probably will send them home. Thats the only way out for most of the crew with 2 down and 2 trapped in a power blocking room... and the only way for Ichigo to leave without saving her. He's too proud to go any other way.

although I was glad I at least nailed it about her reaction to seeing Ichigo for the first time with the mask.

patrick_tambu
July 02, 2007, 04:51 PM
Ichigo is gonna end this GJ match... Dunno how but he surely will. 19 pages will do!!!

If not:

we are gonna see about Ishida n' Renji....

Littlewig
July 02, 2007, 10:26 PM
Right now is the perfect time to explain why Ichigo can last so long with the mask on. I think it has something to do with Zangetsu. Ichigo probably went through some sort of identity crisis mode again when he lost to Espada #4 and learned how to master Hallow form and gained new moves along the way in his deliberations.

If thye don't explain it next chapter the action will be too intense to have a pause until the end, which will be kind of pointless explaining to us after the fact.

QMark
July 02, 2007, 10:53 PM
I'm hoping eventually Ichigo's hollow form progresses. It almost seems as though Kubo is hinting at this after the last fight with Ulquiorra. I mean, even Inoue had problems rejecting some of the reiatsu from Ichigo's wound. Maybe that reiatsu was infact Ichigo's own hollow's reiatsu coming through to show a bit more transformation. It would be sort of ironic of Ichigo to get a hole of his own.

Anyhow my 2 cents is that eventually Ichigo will get more physical characteristics of his hollow's true appearance. Then in turn become more like the whole version (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Ichigo%27s_Inner_Hollow2.png/400px-Ichigo%27s_Inner_Hollow2.png) until he completely takes over. I mean the way the hollow overtook Zangetsu seems to infer that the hollow himself has sort of a quicksand like effect on Ichigo. And by that I mean the stronger Ichigo himself becomes, the more the hollow inside him takes over.

llamapie
July 03, 2007, 12:00 AM
I'm hoping eventually Ichigo's hollow form progresses. It almost seems as though Kubo is hinting at this after the last fight with Ulquiorra. I mean, even Inoue had problems rejecting some of the reiatsu from Ichigo's wound. Maybe that reiatsu was infact Ichigo's own hollow's reiatsu coming through to show a bit more transformation. It would be sort of ironic of Ichigo to get a hole of his own.

Anyhow my 2 cents is that eventually Ichigo will get more physical characteristics of his hollow's true appearance. Then in turn become more like the whole version (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Ichigo%27s_Inner_Hollow2.png/400px-Ichigo%27s_Inner_Hollow2.png) until he completely takes over. I mean the way the hollow overtook Zangetsu seems to infer that the hollow himself has sort of a quicksand like effect on Ichigo. And by that I mean the stronger Ichigo himself becomes, the more the hollow inside him takes over.

HEhe right as I was about to post that same badass full hollow form of ichigo's. Though.. this seems kinda boring. Ichigo should progress in another way. But it seems a full transformation is his only chance of beating an espada of CJ's calibre.

It's a valid prediction that has become very easy to predict.. Anyways.. Next chapter is gonna involve some of Ichigo getting owned then .. partial transformation.

kazamakj
July 03, 2007, 02:41 AM
I think that it would be too lame and predictable for Uchinaru Ichigo to take the trone. C'mon, everyone waits for it. And I really want to see Ichigo to beat somebody while being the King (ok, I know, I know he beated Doldoni, but it was not a fight to me). It's not cool to hope all the time that Inner Ichigo would come and save you. Be a man, show some balls ))

And 'bout Noitora... WTF?! How huge is that Hueco Mundo is?! It take so freaking long for an ESPADA to reach some area there?! Seriously. They DO have shunpo analogues - sonido and they are damn FAST! How long can Noitora make everyone wait.? There's an impression that Chad and Rukia are already brown bread! And I really do want to believe the idea of any reinforcments to come. But there are two ways for the plot to be developed.

1. Our good guys are totally pwned. And are thrown out from Hueco Mundo as a pile of shit. Then being recovered by squad 4 and other "helpers". Inoue is still being a hostage. The preparations for the winter war begin. And so on.

2. Reinforcements arrive. Soul Society AND Vaizards. Because I presume that the fights would never be the same again. There are few "good ones" capable of killing an Espada alone. I would bet on Kenpachi (OMG Kenpachi VS Noitora - the sweetiest thing ever!), Yamamoto Genryusai (Imagine Aizen sitting near the window watching the old geezer Espada fighting Yamamoto - "What a wonderful fireworks. Night is so bright in flames....") and Shinji (I DO believe that it is Shinji who has to beat GJ afterall). I want to have faith in Urahara, but I guess that Yami is the only one he can defeat solely (Yami is a slacker and can be pwned even by Hinamori :p). To fight somebody stronger he needs Yoruichi.
OOOOPS!... Forget about Ryuuken and Isshin... That goes 5 capable persons.... Oh, ok )))
Anyway, if they DO come, than there be some VERY serious fights. But fortunately Aizen would make some bad ass thing and kick out everyone from Hueco. Or just Old Man Yama would force everyone to fall back till winter...


Lol I love this place. The predictions here are top notch.

I am guessing however 1) will not happen. This will probably be a long slog here in the "Hollow Zone" and it will not end that fast.

Still think Ichigo is being pretty darn weak over having the ability of a Vaizard. He needs a good kick up the backside to get his motor going. Either that or maybe finally being like grimmjaw a bit. Just for the fight although that is unlikely since he has that fury and a caring personality.

So I still think he will get beaten and haiz maybe the inner realm scene in his mind again with Shiro Ichigo (I know i predicted this won't happen but it keeps looking that way)

llamapie
July 03, 2007, 11:02 AM
As to why Ichigo is not as strong as the other vizards even though zangetsu is always in a released state.. I can't say. It just leaves a ton of room for ichi to grow. He reached the ultimate level when he beat byakuya, now he has to reach a whole new plateu.

This series is very much like Dragonball in that sense. You always have the underdog fighting some supremely evil super power, and the underdog has to reach whole new levels to win.

Same reason I like Naruto more. Simply that format is not logical. Really the series, like dragonball, shows stregnth based on Spirit Energy. Where in Naruto --- how much chakra you have does not determine how good you are but merely what you can do.

genkizen
July 03, 2007, 07:01 PM
All Ichigo has been doing lately is get his ass kicked AND he was at the brink of death during his last beating with Ulquiora. I wonder what really happened when he was on the ground face down and reverted back to his Shikai state.

I think this is gonna go in one of two ways:
1) Ichigo is atleast on par with cat man grimmjow and has a whole schpeal about what happened to him right after the last thrashing he got. Or....

2) Gets his ass handed to him AGAIN and finally has some sort of epiphany (if he was gonna have an epiphany from an ass beating i feel he would have had one by now) or Inoue gets hurt and Ichigo goes berserk on grimmy.

kazamakj
July 04, 2007, 03:43 AM
Right now it does look like he's going to get his arse handed to him for the 2nd time since he got to the "hollow zone." (I know its called something else just that my spelling is crap so this is easier)

And the bags of potential sounds just as it did in the last arc where he had loads of potential to grow in becoming a Shinigami.

Impel Down
July 04, 2007, 06:13 PM
I'm guessing that Ichigo's mask suddenly can last longer, and the two of them hammer each other for a while, Grimmjow getting the upper hand, and Ichigo reveals a new
a) Vaizard power or
b) Tensa Zangetsu power

and leaves the next chapter at a climax, showing that they are truly at the same level and it will be a fight that Kubo hopes will clense him of his cliché sins.

bighawke5
July 06, 2007, 05:59 PM
Assuming Ichigo has indeed passed the 11 second limit, I just wish I knew what the fundamental difference between him and the other Vaizards is. I want to know why they can fight with unreleased Zanpakutou and still be so powerful.

well thing is they are more experienced than ichigo...look at it this way..they used to be shinigamis themselves and fought the hollows long b4 him and then they even fought and dominated their hollows whithin themselves to a point were they can stay in their masked form nearly for as long as they want---meanin they owned that hollow inside them and kept getting stronger by themselves since like ichigo's hollow said "once u get weaker i'll take over and the horse will be ridin the king" so it means that they kept training so that their hollow side never takes over and even whithout the hollow mask on they're pretty good...

my opinion on why ichigo can last so long in the masked form now is kinda like a wake up call thing...look at it this way...i think that althought they didnt explain wat happened when he got owned by ulquiorra...i think he had a talk with shirosaki aka jollow ichigo lol and i think that that reminded him of what the hollow said..."if u get weaker...i'll take over and u'll be done forever" and he dont want that so he started to fight on instincts like hollow ichigo told him he didnt have any and even zaraki told him that also....he finally understand that in the condition that he's in....he don't need to fight to protect his friends anymore...he has to fight 4 himself as in to get stronger so that the hollow doesnt get stronger and win him over.. so by commin to that realization...he indeed got a hold of the hollow's powers and can last longer in his masked form...thats my opinion anyway

dreamzsai
July 06, 2007, 07:37 PM
Somehow the only one thing attracted my attention in this chapter...
It's weird why Ichigo seem to be looking so sad when he looks at Orihime...It seems to get me to think that something negative/bad that isnt revealed to us is going on....maybe it isnt just a plain powerup of extended time for his Mask to be kept on BUT instead Ichigo needs to give up some things to keep it up...i dunno...
Looking forward to how things will go in the next few chapters....How will Halibel and her fraccions play a part in the fight? and will Ulquiora break free soon....

pangoo
July 06, 2007, 08:57 PM
Somehow the only one thing attracted my attention in this chapter...
It's weird why Ichigo seem to be looking so sad when he looks at Orihime...It seems to get me to think that something negative/bad that isnt revealed to us is going on....maybe it isnt just a plain powerup of extended time for his Mask to be kept on BUT instead Ichigo needs to give up some things to keep it up...i dunno...
Looking forward to how things will go in the next few chapters....How will Halibel and her fraccions play a part in the fight? and will Ulquiora break free soon....

Hmm, I agree with you. Throughout the whole chapter there is a distingtive change in Ichigo. I actually wonder whether he is really in control or not. His remarks are unusually cold and frightening, very akin to those uttered by Hollow-Ichigo in the fight between him and Kuchiki Byakuya (spelling?). Ichigo is normally more reserved, not so quiet and cold. I find it rather strange and disconcerning.

Another point, which struck me as most frightening, is the last frame on the very last page. Inoue's expression is so dissapointed and utterly sad, it's most unseen. She is completely scarred of Ichigo (and it's obvious it's not of his mask), but then latter on it looks as if she has given up.

I don't like the way she looks at Ichigo. She turns her face away, as if she was ashamed of what he has become. There is something going on there.

I remember that I have read an interview with Kubo, where he has said that Inou will play an important part in the series and after having read that, I am always wondering what exactly will she do.

All in all, a very emotional chapter, very different in the mood from all the previous chapters.... I almost fear the following chapters...

dudekunle
July 06, 2007, 09:04 PM
Ichigo seems to be submitting to his desire. He's more into this fight than any other fight. Even more so than his fight with Captain Kuchiki. I think it'll be good to examine how his persona changes from here on, and how those changes affect his fighting abilities.

Impel Down
July 06, 2007, 09:33 PM
Geez, Kubo is making most of the female arrancar pretty damn sexy! I mean, Halibel's middle fraction was pretty hot, kinda like Ulquiorra's assisstants. Oh, and it seems like Halibel knows something about Vaizard. And I was right, Ichigo DID suddenly increase his time...for some reason. Plus, he's opening up his "fighting instincts" more.

Suzumushi
July 06, 2007, 09:39 PM
His mask now definitely lasts longer than 11 seconds. Grimmjaw mentions the prolonged duration of Ichigo's hollow mask state. And Ichigo has clearly changed characterwise. He seems to enjoy the fight and even tells Grimmjaw not to "unrelease" because it would be boring...

Impel Down
July 06, 2007, 09:45 PM
I think he was talking about his own mask, but yeah, I agree. Maybe that's why the mask's on longer.

dudekunle
July 06, 2007, 10:07 PM
His mask now definitely lasts longer than 11 seconds. Grimmjaw mentions the prolonged duration of Ichigo's hollow mask state. And Ichigo has clearly changed characterwise. He seems to enjoy the fight and even tells Grimmjaw not to "unrelease" because it would be boring...

Hollow Ichigo and normal Ichigo must be on the same page as far as this fight. They both want to take out Grimjow and reign supreme, so because neither one is holding the other back, the mask lasts longer.
[hr]
Also, I'm not sure if its just me or what, but has anyone else noticed that within the last few chapters, Ichigo's mask has changed somewhat. I mean the physical structure of it has changed to the degree that you can see a cheekbone like frame. Well it might just be my imagination.

Impel Down
July 06, 2007, 10:09 PM
Yeah, because his powers are advancing, it's becoming more detailed and the black is growing on it. Although it's great that he's actually fighting now, Kubo had to screw it up and make Inoue "unhappy" about the fact that he's strong now.

amperx
July 06, 2007, 10:13 PM
hell yeah for that chapter!!, i seriously think ichigo should use a new move on this one, as gt doesnt seem to affect gj on that state hmm

hasoon87
July 06, 2007, 10:15 PM
SICKEST CHAPTER IN THE ARC SO FAR! hahahaha, i enjoyed that so much! finally ichigo has gotten outta his panzy ass mentality and is having fun fighting!! I refuse to take this mask off was the best line ever, exactly what he needs to keep it there! his mentalitly like I said has completely changed, he's become of more of what the vaizards are like, in the sense of what kensai (i think thats his name) said a long time back "what an idiot how can he fight with out calling out his inner hollow" Seems like ichigo has FINALLY accepted it, and as a result is kicking ass right now! haha, cant wait for next week!

Silhouette
July 06, 2007, 10:20 PM
My thoughts:

1- Yes there is definitely a change in Ichigo's behavior,If you recall, he told Hiyori that he lets his mask dissolve because otherwise "it would be too dangerous" but now he says " I refuse to take this mask off"...it seems like he's enjoying having this much power..he's enjoying the fight itself...for the 1st time. It makes me think Ichigo could've held he mask longer but was afraid of the lust-for-fight growing inside him.

http://i12.tinypic.com/4po8mjd.jpg

2- There is a black aura surrounding him (best seen in page 10, middle panle), the same black aura that surrounded him after his bankai dissolved, back then, some believed it was his bankai dissolving but it's back and his bankai isn't disappearing

3-I must admire Kubo-sensie's way of drawing eyes expressions, to me Orihime's eyes showed fear and confusion...
http://i9.tinypic.com/4lfxpjs.jpg
Ichigo must be emitting the same sense of fear like GJ..the one that scared the crap out of the sexy squad (Halibel is a psycho!! telling her fraccions to pay attention to fear as if she's asking them to treasure it !!) It's understandable to see Orihime confused because she always sensed Ichigo's kindness even when they were in school before gaining spiritual powers...at least the last time she saw him he looked so peaceful in his sleep but it seems now that madness has taken over kindness
http://i12.tinypic.com/4trocnr.jpg

Some may feel that Ichigo's eyes showed sadnesst or disappointment after Orihime got scared
http://i18.tinypic.com/631t0lk.jpg

but to me, he looked ashamed of having to show his ugly side in Orihime's presence.

This is chapter is great to say the least not only because of the fight scenes but because they were mixed with such a great emotional scenes, I am glad Kubo-sensie didn't make Orihime and Ichigo talk because their expressions revealed how they felt more better a thousand words and made it more dramatic.

Impel Down
July 06, 2007, 10:30 PM
I think it was half ashamed of looking like this to Inoue, but also half compassion, like "You almost died there". And at least he's getting better control and fighting. Not to mention his lines when he caught Grimmjow's hand were pretty badass. Has Oda-sensei been giving Kubo some pointers?

Silhouette
July 06, 2007, 10:39 PM
I think it was half ashamed of looking like this to Inoue, but also half compassion, like "You almost died there". And at least he's getting better control and fighting. Not to mention his lines when he caught Grimmjow's hand were pretty badass. Has Oda-sensei been giving Kubo some pointers?

I don't see compassion or blame...he would've looked her in the eyes if that was the case but he's looking down..he's avoiding eye contact and LOL @ giving Oda credit for this chapter!!!!! please don't turn this into Bleach v OP or Bleach v Naruto discussion lets just enjoy a Bleach related discussion!!

Impel Down
July 06, 2007, 10:48 PM
*sigh* if we must. So, are they going to reference every unknown Espada now, talking about the fight? Because they made Halibel kinda random, plus they made it seem like Ichigo was either some kinda freak-shinigami, or that she knew about Vaizards.

dudekunle
July 07, 2007, 12:01 AM
*sigh* if we must. So, are they going to reference every unknown Espada now, talking about the fight? Because they made Halibel kinda random, plus they made it seem like Ichigo was either some kinda freak-shinigami, or that she knew about Vaizards.

Re-read the chapter. I too thought she knew something about the vaizards because of the line "It's as if...". However, on the page where it shows the words "Primal Fear" there's a line that i think is a continuation of her broken phrase which goes "I'm watching a fight between two Espada". So her full phrase would be " It's as if I'm watching a fight between two Espada."

zerokule
July 07, 2007, 12:45 AM
I think his inner hollow is in control now.

drakend
July 07, 2007, 03:42 AM
I think his inner hollow is in control now.
I think guys should get up from their fanboyness: if Shirosaki would have been in control he wouldn't have cared less about Inoue's death.

2ndKurono
July 07, 2007, 04:42 AM
man holow Ichigo is awesome,Grimjaw is begining to panic,that sucks but i think Grimjaw still has something up his sleewes.

gfire2
July 07, 2007, 05:16 AM
great chapter, i was getting tired from all the boring chapters in this arc but finalli something good.

since chad got a power up coz of his powers are similar to a hollows i dont see y ichigo cant get a bigger powerup, i dunno maybe some new moves from his bankai since its getting kinda repettative

ChristopherE
July 07, 2007, 05:48 AM
I think in a way Ichigo's Inner Hollow is fighting. I know this has been brought up saying Ichigo may have just accepted the inner hollow but there is more to it.


It could be that Ichigo mentally said "Shirosaki, I'll let you fight as long as you do what I ask such as not letting my friends get hurt."

Dunno, just a thought.

drakend
July 07, 2007, 08:00 AM
I think in a way Ichigo's Inner Hollow is fighting. I know this has been brought up saying Ichigo may have just accepted the inner hollow but there is more to it.


It could be that Ichigo mentally said "Shirosaki, I'll let you fight as long as you do what I ask such as not letting my friends get hurt."

Dunno, just a thought.
I think Ichigo didn't have any inner-world talk or some shit like that: we have already seen plenty of his talks with Zangetsu and Shirosaki: it is enough for a while.
This chapter isn't a turning point because of Ichigo will defeat Grimmjaw, but because he finally enjoy the fighting and he even said "I refuse to wear off this mask". That phrase clearly proves that Ichigo accepted entirely his hollow side, with all the consequences that comes with that decision, like the love for fighting.
I read some past posts of people talking about Shirosaki being under "conditioned" control of Ichigo's body: but where did we have any evidence of that?
I think the distinction between Ichigo and Shirosaki will be meaningless from now on: we now have a new Ichigo, who fights in order to protect his beloved ones AND in order to kill his enemies enjoying in doing so. The two things don't contradict each other: they complement each other to tell the truth, but Ichigo needed tens of chapters to understand that, well he's young! :D

Pollux
July 07, 2007, 08:08 AM
Great chapter, even better than last week.
It confirms the fact that arrancars do not know about vizards (since Ulquiorra and Halibel find vizard Ichigo strange) but, apart from that, the appearance of Halibel was pointless (although it showed that Kubo really likes to draw girls with big breasts ;)).
Ichigo behaviour is starting to change. Although he is still himself, as shown by the passage when he protects Inoue, he is becoming more like Shirosaki, not fighting to protect his friends but for the sake of fighting. It's the reason why I think that, although it's not Shirosaki who is fighting, their personalities are beginning to merge. The fact that he also refuses to take the mask off seems to indicate that he is no longer afraid of his hollow and that he now understands that he needs his power to win.
I may be wrong but Ichigo seems to have the upper hand and take the fight less seriously than GJ. About the latter, I'm a bit relieved as it seems that he didn't attack Inoue on purpose but rather that Ichigo avoided the attack and then realized that it might hurt her.
In a way, it's a good thing that Ichigo is now able to control his powers better but on the hand, it will probably strains his relationship with Inoue and probably his other friends (as shinigamis and quincys are supposed to "kill" hollows) save for Chad since he also uses powers close to those of the hollows.
I hope next week chapter will be as good as this one.

alexandrosgnr
July 07, 2007, 08:37 AM
What the F@#$,

this chapter was incredible. I think Halibel is of a lower rank than GJ because he is talking with much respect about the fight of a released Espada ..(just speculation)

ttxdragon
July 07, 2007, 08:39 AM
The point of him "refusing to take off the mask" is a small translation error. He says he doesn't want grimmjow to go out of his released state either. Just like Grimmjow tells Ichigo not to leave take off the mask. Read both translations in the Latest Translations Forum (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=446)


On a different note, this chapter is awesome :O

The smaller-breasted one who tells the other two fraccion to shut their mouths is looking to me as the perfect voodoo puppet user xD she just seems to have that personality :smile-big

At least we know that this fight doesn't go by unnoticed and we don't have to really wonder why nobody comes to "the rescue" or something >.>'
I love how Hallibel tells her fraccion to cherish the feeling of this primal fear - most likely so they can act better when they encounter such force again.

And the fight is awesome.
Even if Ichigo may not have "new techniques" as in a new blast or something, his whole movements seem more fluent, precise and made to kill.
He uses his sword more effective, and still uses his other hand to block/hold the enemy. This is a fighting style that fits ichigo perfectly and is insanely hard to convey in a manga -- something Kubo managed to do without many words.

Orihimes expression certainly pained Ichigo, as a friend 'rejecting' you - the one who came to rescue her - is always something that'll hurt the heart of the rescuer. All those eye-expressions in this chapter tell so much, but yet leave one so puzzled.... Great work Kubo!

drakend
July 07, 2007, 09:11 AM
Ichigo behaviour is starting to change. Although he is still himself, as shown by the passage when he protects Inoue, he is becoming more like Shirosaki, not fighting to protect his friends but for the sake of fighting.

I think that he can do both things together as they don't contradict themselves: the only relevant change, hopefully, is that he won't heal his enemies after defeating them, he will slice them to death, and that he will fight even if it isn't to protect his friends.



In a way, it's a good thing that Ichigo is now able to control his powers better but on the hand, it will probably strains his relationship with Inoue and probably his other friends (as shinigamis and quincys are supposed to "kill" hollows) save for Chad since he also uses powers close to those of the hollows.
I hope next week chapter will be as good as this one.
If this happens then they can all die because Ichigo had to become shinigami and a vaizard because his friends uselessness.



What the F@#$,

this chapter was incredible. I think Halibel is of a lower rank than GJ because he is talking with much respect about the fight of a released Espada ..(just speculation)
To me it seems Halibel is bored... she's observing the fight, sure, but a part from the strangeness about Ichigo's reiatsu she isn't surprised/scared even a bit.




The point of him "refusing to take off the mask" is a small translation error. He says he doesn't want grimmjow to go out of his released state either. Just like Grimmjow tells Ichigo not to leave take off the mask. Read both translations in the Latest Translations Forum (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=446)

Well even if it's phrased wrong if Ichigo tells Grimmjaw to not go out of his released state "too" then this means Ichigo wants to stay in his vaizard state as well. Anyway the time limit is officially gone, because another time limit (20 seconds or whatever) would be lame and boring.



On a different note, this chapter is awesome :O

That's a given! ;)



I love how Hallibel tells her fraccion to cherish the feeling of this primal fear - most likely so they can act better when they encounter such force again.

If the fraccions will encounter "such force again" I fear they wouldn't have time to realize. :D



He uses his sword more effective, and still uses his other hand to block/hold the enemy. This is a fighting style that fits ichigo perfectly and is insanely hard to convey in a manga -- something Kubo managed to do without many words.

He's starting to use other parts of his body as well: it's the first time he used a bare hand in a fight as far as I remember. This is typically "hollowish" habit, because all of the other arrancars don't use their zanpaktou ever, if not to release.



Orihimes expression certainly pained Ichigo, as a friend 'rejecting' you - the one who came to rescue her - is always something that'll hurt the heart of the rescuer. All those eye-expressions in this chapter tell so much, but yet leave one so puzzled.... Great work Kubo!
As I stated before I excuse Orihime because it's her first time seeing Ichigo in vaizard mode: if this will go on in the future then I hope she dies because she doesn't deserve anything. The same for the other nakama as well, of course.

ttxdragon
July 07, 2007, 09:52 AM
Well even if it's phrased wrong if Ichigo tells Grimmjaw to not go out of his released state "too" then this means Ichigo wants to stay in his vaizard state as well. Anyway the time limit is officially gone, because another time limit (20 seconds or whatever) would be lame and boring.

There is a difference in it though:
Ichigo doesn't go to slaughter just any enemy, but an enemy that can actually put up a fight. He goes for the fun in battle and not for the definite kill.


If the fraccions will encounter "such force again" I fear they wouldn't have time to realize. :D

I am pretty sure they will encounter such force again, even if they are just fighting the sidekicks of the soul society/earth party close to the big battles. If they are frozen because of that force at that point, they will have a big problem.



He's starting to use other parts of his body as well: it's the first time he used a bare hand in a fight as far as I remember. This is typically "hollowish" habit, because all of the other arrancars don't use their zanpaktou ever, if not to release.

He fought without his hands once:
Before the fight against Byakuya when he stops three vice captains from following renji.
There he wins against all three of them without being in bankai mode and using his zanpakutou.



As I stated before I excuse Orihime because it's her first time seeing Ichigo in vaizard mode: if this will go on in the future then I hope she dies because she doesn't deserve anything. The same for the other nakama as well, of course.

Wishing them to die because they can't get to terms with the hollow-form of ichigo is a bit harsh though. It is hard to accept somebody when he suddenly changes like that. It will take more than some month. But it is still initial rejection, thus the reaction of ichigo that we see in his eyes.

mokney
July 07, 2007, 10:07 AM
Your incredibly negative :p EDIT : @ drakend.

What if ichigo loses control and inoue is the one who helps him stop? I dont think she should leave in fact, shes part of the drama side, its necessary to have these kind of drama situations. Otherwise its just another action manga.


To me it seems Halibel is bored... she's observing the fight, sure, but a part from the strangeness about Ichigo's reiatsu she isn't surprised/scared even a bit.

I reckon that Ichigo will do something to surprise her. Its obvious that hes not using all his strength, because then it means that hes already at his limit 2 chapters after demonstrating his new power.

He also seems more inclined to kill without reason. If they take this route its most likely gonna be zaraki saying they are alike and ichigo still tries to deny OR tries to justify his actions.

Anyways good chapter, when i read pages 5 - 8 i was just cracking a huge smile. Good to see the good old 'pointless violence' back because it usually means a cool fight.



Just a thought, Did anyone ever think that Ichigo might Turn into Shirosaki on the outside but remain in control? Sorta like surpassing his standard hollow transformation? Or even going back to his hollow form the time he had his inner conflict? I reckon that would be so awesome!

gold349
July 07, 2007, 10:30 AM
Great chapter, even better than last week.
It confirms the fact that arrancars do not know about vizards (since Ulquiorra and Halibel find vizard Ichigo strange) but, apart from that, the appearance of Halibel was pointless (although it showed that Kubo really likes to draw girls with big breasts ;)).
Ichigo behaviour is starting to change. Although he is still himself, as shown by the passage when he protects Inoue, he is becoming more like Shirosaki, not fighting to protect his friends but for the sake of fighting. It's the reason why I think that, although it's not Shirosaki who is fighting, their personalities are beginning to merge. The fact that he also refuses to take the mask off seems to indicate that he is no longer afraid of his hollow and that he now understands that he needs his power to win.
I may be wrong but Ichigo seems to have the upper hand and take the fight less seriously than JG. About the latter, I'm a bit relieved as it seems that he didn't attack Inoue on purpose but rather that Ichigo avoided the attack and then realized that it might hurt her.
In a way, it's a good thing that Ichigo is now able to control his powers better but on the hand, it will probably strains his relationship with Inoue and probably his other friends (as shinigamis and quincys are supposed to "kill" hollows) save for Chad since he also uses powers close to those of the hollows.
I hope next week chapter will be as good as this one.

i agree he looks more in tune with his inner hollow, his whole approach and personality has changed he is more confident of himself and is not afraid at all, his whole approach from the begining was different it's like he knows what to excpect and he could handle anything that comes, he is fighting above par, this fight ichigo has it in the bag what ever gj throws at him he isn't fazed at all, even knowing and reading GJ's attacks and power level, GJ's power doesnt scare him, as far as telling him in a round about way not to loose that released state other wise he (GJ) is not gonna be a problem and not even a challange, i'm glad he can hold his mask for longer, at last he may understand his inner hollow and maybe he has him by his testicles now, drawing out all the power needed and not loosing his insanity. I thought his friends knew about his inner hollow, but couldn,t help him Ruqia told him to see Urahara about it, but he instead went to the Vizards. They might not have seen him physically in it but knew non the less, this episode was more than great, from being nearly dead to fighting a espada in released form and kicking butt, showing power beyond any other shinigami is cool and what you would expect from the main character, the look in Inhoue's face was more sorrow than fright, she was superised but it was more like ohh Kurasaci you've gone thruogh all this for me/us,you've taken everything on your own shoulders you look and have gone through all this on your own, it was more care than fright.

drakend
July 07, 2007, 10:32 AM
There is a difference in it though:
Ichigo doesn't go to slaughter just any enemy, but an enemy that can actually put up a fight. He goes for the fun in battle and not for the definite kill.
The important thing is that Ichigo now enjoys to fight... that's the key change IMHO. Anyway we should wait for the conclusion of this fight regarding the killing issue. :P



I am pretty sure they will encounter such force again, even if they are just fighting the sidekicks of the soul society/earth party close to the big battles. If they are frozen because of that force at that point, they will have a big problem.

For such a force I meant Ichigo: if they fight Ichigo they're done for, of course.



He fought without his hands once:
Before the fight against Byakuya when he stops three vice captains from following renji.
There he wins against all three of them without being in bankai mode and using his zanpakutou.

Yes you're right, I completely forgot that one. But you have to admit that shinigami usually fight with their zanpaktou, not bare handed like hollows do.



Wishing them to die because they can't get to terms with the hollow-form of ichigo is a bit harsh though. It is hard to accept somebody when he suddenly changes like that. It will take more than some month. But it is still initial rejection, thus the reaction of ichigo that we see in his eyes.
I'm generous and I excused the surprise/fearness for now: but if this evolves into a total "rejection" then I won't be so forgiving. Ichigo has passed the hell since the beginning of the SS arc all because of his friends: they can do the effort to understand him, it's the least they can do. Especially Rukia and, even more especially, Inoue.

mokney
July 07, 2007, 10:38 AM
Ichigo must of gone through another moment where he had to gain a new level of strength, same time when zaraki fought him and zangetsu took him away. We havent seen Zangetsu's avatar for a while so maybe it was something that forced ichigo to accept that he loves fighting and that is the only way to save people.



Is it me or does kubo like revealing outfits lately? Like Sklyars (sp) assistant and halibel and one of her fraccions.

dudekunle
July 07, 2007, 10:46 AM
I thought his friends knew about his inner hollow, but couldn,t help him Ruqia told him to see Urahara about it, but he instead went to the Vizards. They might not have seen him physically in it but knew non the less, this episode was more than great, from being nearly dead to fighting a espada in released form and kicking butt, showing power beyond any other shinigami is cool and what you would expect from the main character, the look in Inhoue's face was more sorrow than fright, she was superised but it was more like ohh Kurasaci you've gone thruogh all this for me/us,you've taken everything on your own shoulders you look and have gone through all this on your own, it was more care than fright.

I'm not sure if his friends knew about his inner hollow, but I'm sure Soul Society documented it after Ichigo's outburst during the Byakuya fight. Also, Captain Kuchiki might have leaked info about it to his little sister. Besides Rukia, and maybe Ishida, I don't think no one else has mentioned slightly that they know about the inner workings of Ichigo. Even when Inoue went to the Vaizard hideout, I don't think Ichigo had his mask on back then. Also, when Chad mentioned the origins of his ability, if he had known about the Vaizards in full, he might had made a reference to his similarities to Ichigo.

drakend
July 07, 2007, 10:46 AM
Your incredibly negative :p EDIT : @ drakend.

I'm not negative, but I'm not diplomatical, I give you that: I like to say what I think directly.



What if ichigo loses control and inoue is the one who helps him stop? I dont think she should leave in fact, shes part of the drama side, its necessary to have these kind of drama situations. Otherwise its just another action manga.
We already have the drama situation of the "taking over" drama: one is more than enough... there is so much plot to develop and so many ways to develop it. I don't understand why people like to develop the plot in already seen ways: Kubo is the PLOT GOD so he can surprise us in new ways evrey time. Nobody foresaw that Ichigo's upgrade would go this way: no inner talk, but just Ichigo embracing his hollow more. Simple but effective.




I reckon that Ichigo will do something to surprise her. Its obvious that hes not using all his strength, because then it means that hes already at his limit 2 chapters after demonstrating his new power.

Well Grimmjaw could be at his limit too... I mean he released and fought quite a lot in this chapter. Another chapter for this fight is ok, but not more: even because there is Ulquiorra, Noitora and Halibel... :D
Grimmjaw's is just a pawn that was useful for Ichigo to understand his true nature (the entirety of it I mean). Now that this has happened Grimmjaw is useless: stronger opponets are needed in order to make Ichigo grow even more... I would like the using of hollow techniques, like Cero.



He also seems more inclined to kill without reason. If they take this route its most likely gonna be zaraki saying they are alike and ichigo still tries to deny OR tries to justify his actions.

Anyways good chapter, when i read pages 5 - 8 i was just cracking a huge smile. Good to see the good old 'pointless violence' back because it usually means a cool fight.

Yes indeed, this is the best chapter ever, even better than the one where Shirosaki came out during the Ichigo vs Byakuya fight.
As many guys here like the idea of Shirosaki's taking over something similiar could happen: Ichigo starts to like fighting a bit too much... after defeating Grimmjaw he will be identified as a strong threat to Aizen's plans because he went from trash to trashing the sexta Espada. At this point any combination of Espadas (even more than one) could attack him: my preferred one is Ulquiorra, Noitora and Halibel. During such a disaster (for the people watching :P) Ichigo, even losing, could start to enjoy it for real and keep fighting even where he could ran away with Inoue, without being able to stop his istinct. This doesn't mean Shirosaki takes over!!!



Just a thought, Did anyone ever think that Ichigo might Turn into Shirosaki on the outside but remain in control? Sorta like surpassing his standard hollow transformation? Or even going back to his hollow form the time he had his inner conflict? I reckon that would be so awesome!
Yes of course: I bet that's his "ultimate mode". The mask could be shikai and that form bankai (as a way of speech, power wise they're not even comparable): if that's the true then this means Inoue would have lots of heart attacks and the Prima Espada (->Stark!!!) will have to get up from his bed.

dudekunle
July 07, 2007, 11:09 AM
I thought his friends knew about his inner hollow, but couldn,t help him Ruqia told him to see Urahara about it, but he instead went to the Vizards. They might not have seen him physically in it but knew non the less, this episode was more than great, from being nearly dead to fighting a espada in released form and kicking butt, showing power beyond any other shinigami is cool and what you would expect from the main character, the look in Inhoue's face was more sorrow than fright, she was superised but it was more like ohh Kurasaci you've gone thruogh all this for me/us,you've taken everything on your own shoulders you look and have gone through all this on your own, it was more care than fright.

I'm not sure if his friends knew about his inner hollow, but I'm sure Soul Society documented it after Ichigo's outburst during the Byakuya fight. Also, Captain Kuchiki might have leaked info about it to his little sister. Besides Rukia, and maybe Ishida, I don't think no one else has mentioned slightly that they know about the inner workings of Ichigo. Even when Inoue went to the Vaizard hideout, I don't think Ichigo had his mask on back then. Also, when Chad mentioned the origins of his ability, if he had known about the Vaizards in full, he might had made a reference to his similarities to Ichigo.

About Inoue. You have to understand that throughout the series, she's been able to judge if a person is good or bad by 1st sight. That's why when she 1st met Hiyori, she shows no fear and attempts to track her and Shinji down until Chad stops her. So, because she can see how genuine someone is, she used to be able to see Ichigo for what he was. However, because of the hollow within him, Ichigo's been changing, and before this fight with GrimJaw, he held back, especially in front of Inoue, because he knew that she'd be the one most effected by his inner mosterous nature. But right now, in order to protect her, he has to submit to his desires to fight and become more of a monster. Which is why (like you said) Inoue is in despair. She's thinking "If it wasn't for me, Kurosaki-kun would stay the Kurosaki-kun I knew and he wouldn't turn out like this." So i really wanna see how his relationships with his friends change after this milestone of a fight.

Impel Down
July 07, 2007, 11:22 AM
Well, if they knew that he had Vaizard powers, they would have kicked him out, like they did to the rest of the Vaizard, right? Therefore, I doubt Byakuya would have talked about it, and he probably thought that Ichigo had it under control, since he took the mask off.

dudekunle
July 07, 2007, 11:35 AM
Well, if they knew that he had Vaizard powers, they would have kicked him out, like they did to the rest of the Vaizard, right? Therefore, I doubt Byakuya would have talked about it, and he probably thought that Ichigo had it under control, since he took the mask off.

I understand where your coming from, but I don't recall reading that the Vizards were exiled. Hiyori said she hated Shinigami, but never elaborated why, so there are many possible reasons why they left soul society. Who knows, they might have suffered prejudice, or tried to overthrow Sereitei. Plus, I doubt any of em were members of sereitei to begin with. They all might have been Vagrant Shinigami like Kenpachi was.

Impel Down
July 07, 2007, 11:41 AM
I believe I read that they WERE removed because obtaining Vaizard powers is illegal, which is also part of the reason why Kisuke was removed from SS.

dudekunle
July 07, 2007, 11:45 AM
Hmmmm, you may be right, but how'd Rukia find out? (Though it is possible Urahara told her).......
Also i still believe someone high up knows about Ichigo's secret, but won't exile him because:
1) He doesn't live in soul society, and in the manga he has not returned to SS since the rescue rukia arc
2) Yamato said that he was too great an asset to lose. (so he may also be too great an asset to execute for being a Vizard)
3) He has shown a willingness to supress his inner hollow whenever he thought it neccesary. (something that the "exiled" vizards probably either couldn't do at 1st, or just didn't want to do)

drakend
July 07, 2007, 11:56 AM
Isshin said that Vaizards are rogue shinigami who obtained hollow powers by using forbidden techniques. He didn't say that Vaizards are rogue shinigami BECAUSE they obtained hollow powers. It can be they were rogue shinigami to begin with and then they looked for more power through hollowization. Urahara is a rogue shinigami, for example.



Hmmmm, you may be right, but how'd Rukia find out? (Though it is possible Urahara told her).......
Also i still believe someone high up knows about Ichigo's secret, but won't exile him because:
1) He doesn't live in soul society, and in the manga he has not returned to SS since the rescue rukia arc
2) Yamato said that he was too great an asset to lose. (so he may also be too great an asset to execute for being a Vizard)
3) He has shown a willingness to supress his inner hollow whenever he thought it neccesary. (something that the "exiled" vizards either couldn't do at 1st, or just didn't want to do)
SS obviously knows about Ichigo being an hybrid, because otherwise Rukia shouldn't know about his inner hollow.
Anyway SS can't do anything about Ichigo: if they try to kill him then Vaizard come to the rescue and SS is doomed, not to mention I think Vaizard Ichigo can take on Zaraki AND Byakuya without much problems so it's difficult for SS to even implement such a plan.

Lord Rae
July 07, 2007, 01:24 PM
Well Rukia knowing about it isn't a surprise at all because we know that she's close to the two people who know about it or at least should have known about it.

Urahara and Byakuya both know and we know she talks to them a bunch...

We also know that she didn't bring the subject of "his hollow" up to any of the other shingami that we saw. She didn't talk to Ichigo about it in front of the others when they first showed up...she took him off to fight a hollow alone and then talked to him about it.

She also didn't tell anyone about the Vaizard hideout she caught Inoue comming out of ...

So her knowing really doesn't mean anyone high up knows about it... unless you count Ishin the King. ;p

drakend
July 07, 2007, 01:37 PM
Well Rukia knowing about it isn't a surprise at all because we know that she's close to the two people who know about it or at least should have known about it.

Urahara and Byakuya both know and we know she talks to them a bunch...

We also know that she didn't bring the subject of "his hollow" up to any of the other shingami that we saw. She didn't talk to Ichigo about it in front of the others when they first showed up...she took him off to fight a hollow alone and then talked to him about it.

She also didn't tell anyone about the Vaizard hideout she caught Inoue comming out of ...

So her knowing really doesn't mean anyone high up knows about it... unless you count Ishin the King. ;p
Ok we don't know about who said what to who. So let's leave alone the characters and let's see the facts: SS can detect hollows and arrancars in the real world, so they're able to do that even in SS of course (otherwise it would be too retarded). Ichigo's reiatsu, while he's in vaizard mode, is very similiar to the arrancar's one, as it has been stated multiple times. Some sensor within SS revealed the presence of one captain and one being with a strange reiatsu pattern on Soukyou Hill, very similiar to the one typical of the arrancars, which were identified later. At the time of the relevation there weren't any arrancars in SS and in that location at that time there were Byakuya and Ichigo fighting. So if one reiatsu is captain class belonging to Byakuya (they can identify the reiatsu of a known person) then the other arrancar-like reiatsu belongs to Ichigo.

evaJ
July 07, 2007, 03:03 PM
I'm not seeing the "rejection" thing yet [someone mentioned that it's at this point already]. So far it's almost the same as InuYasha going demon. Kagome was scared, but she wasn't rejecting him. So, I'm basically seeing this as the same with Inoue here. The big difference is that Ichigo is still in control of himself it seems, but it changes the person he is. That's what I think Inoue is scared of, for Ichigo to totally lose himself. But I'll have to wait to see how this story develops.

Also I don't think anyone high up knows much about Ichigo's abilities. They only see that he has a lot of potential for a human, and that's why he's such an important piece in the upcoming war. Aizen-sama knows he's special, that's why he sent Ulquiorra and Yami to check him out. They don't know exactly what he is.

And last thing, seems like everytime Ichigo either dies or is on the verge of death, he comes back stronger. Rukia stabbing his heart to give him some of her powers, regaining his powers again with Urahara after getting his ass handed to him by Renji and Byakuya, Kenpachi beating him badly in Soul Society [at that point Zangetsu comes to help him], Vaizard training basically he was almost killed by his inner hollow, Ulquiorra actually killed him. Every time he came back and has become stronger or has added some new power. It's like near death experiences unlocks a new door every time. What still has me bothered is if that black shadowy thing in chapter 272 was seeping out of or creeping into Ichigo when Ulquiorra left him laying.

patrick_tambu
July 07, 2007, 03:27 PM
Ok we don't know about who said what to who. So let's leave alone the characters and let's see the facts: SS can detect hollows and arrancars in the real world, so they're able to do that even in SS of course (otherwise it would be too retarded). Ichigo's reiatsu, while he's in vaizard mode, is very similiar to the arrancar's one, as it has been stated multiple times. Some sensor within SS revealed the presence of one captain and one being with a strange reiatsu pattern on Soukyou Hill, very similiar to the one typical of the arrancars, which were identified later. At the time of the relevation there weren't any arrancars in SS and in that location at that time there were Byakuya and Ichigo fighting. So if one reiatsu is captain class belonging to Byakuya (they can identify the reiatsu of a known person) then the other arrancar-like reiatsu belongs to Ichigo.

Yeah, that's probably due to Urahara's way to bring back out Ichigo's shinigami powers...
Btw, i think is more important the "level" of his reiatsu! Even Halibel took it as an incredible thing!!!!! As everyone who comes to know the speed of his achieving every skill.....
[hr]

What still has me bothered is if that black shadowy thing in chapter 272 was seeping out of or creeping into Ichigo when Ulquiorra left him laying.

Well, that actually was his bankai fading away!!!!!!

drakend
July 07, 2007, 03:50 PM
Yeah, that's probably due to Urahara's way to bring back out Ichigo's shinigami powers...
Btw, i think is more important the "level" of his reiatsu! Even Halibel took it as an incredible thing!!!!! As everyone who comes to know the speed of his achieving every skill.....
<hr noshade size="1">


Well, that actually was his bankai fading away!!!!!!
I think Halibel is surprised not by the power itself, but because that power comes from a human. We have to understand her because she has two examples of humans: Inoue and Ichigo. Inoue is worst than trash fighting-wise, Ichigo is superior to the sexta espada, so Halibel is confused.

Impel Down
July 07, 2007, 04:57 PM
Well, most are confused by the weird reiatsu that Vaizard give off, so that's probably what she's referring to, rather than the amount itself, because her's is still incredibly high as well.

evaJ
July 07, 2007, 05:20 PM
Yeah, that's probably due to Urahara's way to bring back out Ichigo's shinigami powers...
Btw, i think is more important the "level" of his reiatsu! Even Halibel took it as an incredible thing!!!!! As everyone who comes to know the speed of his achieving every skill.....
<hr noshade size="1">


Well, that actually was his bankai fading away!!!!!!
Yeah, I guess I should see it that way. The thing was that in the first panel you see it high above. It wasn't as if it was coming out of Ichigo's body and I can't tell direction there. And by the last panel it seemed as if it engulfed him as the last panel turned almost completely black. That was the part of my confusion, but thanks for that other perspective! :amuse

@ drakend: How do you know Ichigo is superior to the Sexta Espada ? We haven't gotten to that point yet :p For all we know they're at least even right now. Ichigo doesn't have a clear upperhand in the battle yet. Halibel is confused that a human can have this much power. Doesn't know if he's really human or not. Everyone seems to be underestimating Ichigo there in Bleach. Poor guy gets no respect.

patrick_tambu
July 07, 2007, 05:30 PM
Yeah, I guess I should see it that way. The thing was that in the first panel you see it high above. It wasn't as if it was coming out of Ichigo's body and I can't tell direction there. And by the last panel it seemed as if it engulfed him as the last panel turned almost completely black. That was the part of my confusion, but thanks for that other perspective! :amuse

Also, you can see zangetsu's turning back to shikai form, that's why i was quite sure of it!!!!

pancho12
July 07, 2007, 05:38 PM
I don't understand why Ichigo had to block GJ's attack, since Orihime had already set up a barrier to protect herself. Can anybody please explain? Thanks!!!!!!

patrick_tambu
July 07, 2007, 05:45 PM
I don't understand why Ichigo had to block GJ's attack, since Orihime had already set up a barrier to protect herself. Can anybody please explain? Thanks!!!!!!

Some guys here think that Inhoue's barrier wouldn't stand up Gj's attacks, would 'em be on pourpose or not! I think it's a good guess, too.

Impel Down
July 07, 2007, 09:28 PM
Geez, she had training. Surely her barriers should be stronger by now. Or maybe Ichigo is just too protective. It's not like he was going out on a limb, since with his mask on he could block Ulquiorra's cero point blank.

gigantor21
July 07, 2007, 10:41 PM
^ Well, look at it this way; the shield cracked under the weight of an unreleased Yammi's finger, right? So how could a few weeks of informal training with Rukia suddenly allow her to block a released number 6's attacks? Inoue herself said she'd only gotten a little stronger. Plus, Ichigo didn't know anything about the training, so it's only natural that he'd try and protect her on impulse.

mokney
July 07, 2007, 11:43 PM
Hes just protecting his reason to fight, pretty simple.

Next chapter should be good, if kubo tops this one i will cry and post a video for all to see.

VictoriousPenguin
July 08, 2007, 12:01 AM
Wishing them to die because they can't get to terms with the hollow-form of ichigo is a bit harsh though. It is hard to accept somebody when he suddenly changes like that. It will take more than some month. But it is still initial rejection, thus the reaction of ichigo that we see in his eyes.

More than feeling rejected I think Ichigo feels ashamed that anyone in his nakama saw him in hollow form. In chapter 193 Ichigo had told Orihime to stay away from him because he didn't want to hurt her or for her to see him taken over by his hollow form. And he later told Hiyori and the other vizards that his hollow side was too dangerous. Even though Ichigo has more control over the inner-hollow now he doesn't want people to look at it. In the previous chapter, he had told Orihime that he must look scary and turned away so she couldn't see his mask.

Also I don't think that Orihime is "rejecting" Ichigo so much as she's scared and confused by his hollow form and his rough & dark reitsu which is like a foil to how she remembers it being. Just a couple chapters earlier Orihime was telling Nell how Ichigo is kind and how much she believes in him. She's shocked but she hasn't rejected him and she's not going to, she didn't reject her brother in his hollow form even after he tried to kill her and she won't reject Ichigo who is still protecting her and whom she says she is in love with. It would just be OOC for Orihime to reject Ichigo for having a hollow form.

axel
July 08, 2007, 12:02 AM
i love the way that mask looks
hes so fast
tho i think grimms gonna die
:/

mokney
July 08, 2007, 12:09 AM
she looks more worried and surprised than anything else.

It looks like the fights are gonna be much more entertain from now on.

aznpandaby
July 08, 2007, 12:32 AM
In the last chapter, Inoue was kinda afraid of Ichigo's mask. But somehow her expression changed into something else in this one... I don't get it. -_-"

linuxotaku
July 08, 2007, 03:56 AM
I think that he can do both things together as they don't contradict themselves: the only relevant change, hopefully, is that he won't heal his enemies after defeating them, he will slice them to death, and that he will fight even if it isn't to protect his friends.

...


If this is the character development Kubo offers, I'd find it an incredible disappointment (it'd leave Bleach little other than the pretty pictures to offer).

Fortunately, the storyline so far hasn't suggested that seeking power makes one a better person -- instead, it has offered a contradiction: seeking power is dangerous, and yet sometimes necessary. That conflict hasn't yet been resolved, IMO; I doubt it will be resolved while the series continues, but if it is, I'd certainly enjoy a less simplistic resolution.



Well even if it's phrased wrong if Ichigo tells Grimmjaw to not go out of his released state "too" then this means Ichigo wants to stay in his vaizard state as well. Anyway the time limit is officially gone, because another time limit (20 seconds or whatever) would be lame and boring.


It seems obvious that Ichigo was responding to GJ's taunting about their fight; it sounds like you (or the translator :-) read into the text what you wanted to see. (Then again, I'm reading the raw.) I don't see any evidence that Ichigo wants to stay in vizard form per se -- just that he wants not to lose again, and losing the mask has been equivalent to losing. And if he's being taunted, he'll respond in kind.

Anyway -- nice chapter. :-)

Richo
July 08, 2007, 04:04 AM
I am still curious about a few things, is ichigo in control right now or shirosaki to me it seems shirosaki is in full control of ichigo on ichigo is own behalf this time (ichigo not wanting to fight alone against him but wants to win desperately so he gives in to his hollow to fight). I cant imagine ichigo just gained a permanent mask just cause they both agree, no i think shirosaki took over.
also i like the changes and the scared/confused look on inoue and hope they wont get into to deep in that right now and continue the fight and questions after it.

mokney
July 08, 2007, 04:04 AM
he can hold his mask on because hes relying on instinct. His instinct is to fight, and its said hollows protect this with their mask. So naturally he can hold it longer.

Wouldn't it be cool that after this fight he goes beserk and attacks the nearest person, that would be an awesome character development!

EDIT:Richo, it is ichigo not shirosaki. Shirosaki tends to talk down his opponents harshly. This is most definately ichigo. The whole shirosaki in control sounds boring

drakend
July 08, 2007, 04:51 AM
I am still curious about a few things, is ichigo in control right now or shirosaki to me it seems shirosaki is in full control of ichigo on ichigo is own behalf this time (ichigo not wanting to fight alone against him but wants to win desperately so he gives in to his hollow to fight). I cant imagine ichigo just gained a permanent mask just cause they both agree, no i think shirosaki took over.
also i like the changes and the scared/confused look on inoue and hope they wont get into to deep in that right now and continue the fight and questions after it.
If people would care in reading the posts before theirs 50% of the posts of a thread would be avoided. Shirosaki isn't in control: live with it.

mokney
July 08, 2007, 05:09 AM
it seems everyone hopes shirosaki is in control...damn!

khar2
July 08, 2007, 06:04 AM
few things that i think kubo should "enlight" to readers
1st.
one thing i need to see is fight of captain vs. released espada, so i can determine strength of each fraction, if ichigo was strong as Byakuya then he makes mask and he becomes stronger, and then he loses from uli so bad, then 1-4 espadas together can smash all SS captains without any problems?!?!(uli wasnt scared to fight grim, but he didnt want, and thats strange and indicates that he isnt that much stronger from grimm, so more or less they are same strength)
2nd.
how does aizen would control that bunch without being strong at least like 2nd espada(meeting of espada when crowd first came to HM, that girl espada told notoria he istn loyal to aizen, and we saw notorias reaction. would notoria be acting like that if aizen were weakling?!?)
conclusion:
ichigo is going up, down with its power and at the end espadas arent that strong at all, more or less strong as stronger captains
:amuse

dudekunle
July 08, 2007, 07:43 AM
it seems everyone hopes shirosaki is in control...damn!

I know. Sheesh what's so great about that battle hungry bastard anyway? He's even more demented than Kenpachi. But, alot of people who post on here would rather see bleach have meaningless battles similar to DBZ.

Also about those double-posts. yeah, they're annoying, but in society, most people rather voice their opinion than read another's opinion. Still, people, at least skim through the previous pages to get a gist of what the thread's been talking about.
[hr]
I'm sure we will see a captain vs espada fight, but i doubt it'll be in this arc, since ichigo's group has acted on their own without the backing of SS. Also, we're still not sure of the strenghts of certain captains who never release their bankai (Urahara, Shunsui ,Ukitake, Yamamoto, and soi fon, even Yoruichi (since she was former head of the investigation special forces she must have a zanpakuto and had achieve bankai)) so we're not sure of their full strenghts yet. to counter this aizen and ichimaru have yet to release their bankai either.

Impel Down
July 08, 2007, 08:19 AM
It's obvious with Ichgio's expressions and his defending Inoue that it's not Shirosaki, but Ichigo. Although I won't lie to you, watching Shirosaki fight instead would be far more entertaining. But still, my God, Grimmjow needs to do SOMETHING with his release.

Oh, and mokney, I would watch that video a million times.

theshizzle
July 08, 2007, 08:27 AM
Did anyone catch that aracanar the dark skinned girl with the yellow hair's outfit? i mean can that really hold her boobs up without falling out?

Impel Down
July 08, 2007, 08:29 AM
Yes, everyone already caught that. I dunno, it's just very tight, I'm guessing. Or they're attached to her mask fragment, I dunno.

dudekunle
July 08, 2007, 08:42 AM
Wouldn't it be cool that after this fight he goes beserk and attacks the nearest person, that would be an awesome character development!

That would be cool, but that's a common plot tool in most anime/manga that revolve around a hero with a darker side. Remember, the closests people to him after grim are nell and inoue, and if he attacks them, it'll break inoue in more ways than one. This has happened in other manga like when Naruto in his 4-tail form struck Sakura, or if you're a fan of the Berserk manga you'll see a few examples of hurting a loved one in blind rage there.

mars0103
July 08, 2007, 01:46 PM
right this is making mi confused the dark skin girl (broken mask) want is she the other talk to her as a suprier but i thought that the only hollow that have subordents were the espada

Omi
July 08, 2007, 03:57 PM
For some reason the current fight looks like it is Ichigo vs Kenpachi all over again. This fight should be awesome when animated, I can't wait for it. In regards to captains vs espadas, I don't think having any captain fight any espada would do it justice because the capabilities of the espadas released state and the captains zanpaktou have to match. Right now I believe Byakuya can take on anyone of the espadas and win irregardless of the reiatsu.

neomaster121
July 08, 2007, 04:49 PM
nah i don't think he can the captain vs espanda seems almost impossible i think up to number 6 it maaaaaaaybeeeee possible but anything stronger no way

dudekunle
July 08, 2007, 05:06 PM
nah i don't think he can the captain vs espanda seems almost impossible i think up to number 6 it maaaaaaaybeeeee possible but anything stronger no way

I would say that too, but everyone is acting as if Ichigo's group is the only group that trains. I bet all the other captains are looking into their own ways of defeating the Espada, including training. Take Kenpachi for instance, after he lost to ichigo, he broke down saying that he wanted to get stronger and attempted to learn the name of his sword. So don't think just because ichigo has gotten stronger, no one else outside of the human group cannot obtain newer levels of power.

neomaster121
July 08, 2007, 05:21 PM
you got a good point and i thought that as well, but from whats gone on i can't see what kinda of training the captains and such have done to reach the powers of the espanda

patrick_tambu
July 08, 2007, 05:42 PM
you got a good point and i thought that as well, but from whats gone on i can't see what kinda of training the captains and such have done to reach the powers of the espanda

Also, Aizen himself said that to break the limit is needed for a shinigami to tranform into a hollow and viceversa, means that a shinigami who had not, won't ever be able to reach that level!!!

zerocooldx
July 08, 2007, 08:39 PM
i think that ichigo being able to stay for longer than 11 second in his vizard form must have something to do with shirosaki hichigo either they made some kind of a deal in order for ichigo to stay longer in his vizard form for this battle or ichigo has reached the next stage in controling how long he can remain in his vizard form, and have u guys noticed that Ichigos hollow mask is getting darker and darker i'm mean now his whole left side is almost back or red, could signify the joining of ichigo and hichigo
[hr]
i cant wait to see Noitora in battle i think he is the #3 espada

dudekunle
July 09, 2007, 02:27 AM
i cant wait to see Noitora in battle i think he is the #3 espada

Is that the dude who KOed chad in one hit? If it is, i doubt he's in the top 3. I mean if he were No.3 then chad WOULD NOT have survived that hit (Unless all of a sudden chad's right arm has more defense than inoue's barrier). Also, i doubt any of the top espada are as bashful and full of themselves like numbers 6-10. We've seen yammy, GJ, Kaien (what's his name), and Aporro and they are full of themselves. Unlike Ulquiorra, who is calm, cold, and calculating (even though he's still full of himself).

Anyways, my picks for the top 3 are stark, either the old man or Halibel, and the silent big guy that looked african american(NOT YAMMY!).

Marcius
July 09, 2007, 03:14 AM
The guy, who KOd Chad is NO.1 Espada Noitora
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/263/10/

dreamzsai
July 09, 2007, 09:44 AM
Also, Aizen himself said that to break the limit is needed for a shinigami to tranform into a hollow and viceversa, means that a shinigami who had not, won't ever be able to reach that level!!!

What this means is you cant exceed the the limit of ur capacity unless u break the boundary of Hollow/Shinigami. I dont think this makes all Vaizards/Arrancars stronger than a normal Shinigami/Hollow.

Example:
If the Limit of a normal Hollow/Shinigami is 100PowerRating, then maybe the crossbreed can increase it to 200PowerRating.
But this doesnt mean that it increases your powers.
If you are a Hollow with 70PowerRating, increasing the Limit will just make u a 70PowerRating Arrancar.
But if you're a Shinigami with 130PowerRating, you will only be producing a 100PowerRating output due to the limits. But by changing into an Vaizard, it will allow you to break the Limit and operate at ur full power of 130PowerRating.


The guy, who KOd Chad is NO.1 Espada Noitora
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/263/10/

By claiming you're the strongest doesnt MAKE you the strongest. I would say i drew Bleach and Kubo stole it from me, but that doesnt mean it is the fact.
Noitora is out to prove he is the strongest due to the fact that he is not recognized and thus this means he is not No1.

gold349
July 09, 2007, 10:00 AM
The guy, who KOd Chad is NO.1 Espada Noitora
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/263/10/

From what octava espada said that there ranking isnt really according to just pure strenght and power but more on abilitie, Noitra espada might just have that abilitie that his body cannot be broken and is the strongest espada but strenght alone doesnt mean he is no. 1

plus all those people who believe GJ has some secret attack and is just waiting to excute it i dont think so if he had it he would have used it by now, i think the strongest move in his arsnel was the grand cero, GJ doesnt care about his comredes or his superiors he has shown that he is just pure evil, who just gets high on fighting and killing no way has he held back from the begining.

one thing i am looking forward to is who the mestrious big reitsu belonged to that noitora picked up on

last of all i do not think ichigo will loose this fight, he has the lifes of four of his nakama on yhe line Ruqia, Chad, Inhoe and Nell who is also with him not mentioning ishida and renji

i'm looking forward to next episode to see if there will be interfernce or not only way GJ is getting out of this alive is onlt due to some one interfernce.

dudekunle
July 09, 2007, 10:39 AM
What this means is you cant exceed the the limit of ur capacity unless u break the boundary of Hollow/Shinigami. I dont think this makes all Vaizards/Arrancars stronger than a normal Shinigami/Hollow.

Example:
If the Limit of a normal Hollow/Shinigami is 100PowerRating, then maybe the crossbreed can increase it to 200PowerRating.
But this doesnt mean that it increases your powers.
If you are a Hollow with 70PowerRating, increasing the Limit will just make u a 70PowerRating Arrancar.
But if you're a Shinigami with 130PowerRating, you will only be producing a 100PowerRating output due to the limits. But by changing into an Vaizard, it will allow you to break the Limit and operate at ur full power of 130PowerRating.



By claiming you're the strongest doesnt MAKE you the strongest. I would say i drew Bleach and Kubo stole it from me, but that doesnt mean it is the fact.
Noitora is out to prove he is the strongest due to the fact that he is not recognized and thus this means he is not No1.

I completely agree with the way you explained their limitations. When gran fisher came back, he wasn't all that much powerful than his old self was. But i also think that arrancar gain a whole new array of abilities when compared to their former selves, added to the intelligence boost, they become much more dangerous than they used to be even if they have near the same former power rating(although gran fisher seemed dumber than his old self).

As for Noitora, I wanna see of my theory about him is wrong. I personally think he's number 5 because he talks fearlessly to Ulq. GJ talks smack to number 4 too, but there's a limit because of the number differences, but if Noitora were number 5 and we already know that he wants to be number one, then climbing up the ladder from Ulq's position would explain why he was in his face. He seems interested in him and remember his qoute "i am only interested in strong people". so if ulq were weaker than him, he wouldn't have to bother taunting him and such. Also if he were ahead of ulq, then in my opinion, ulq's manner of speech wouldn't be so rude.

patrick_tambu
July 09, 2007, 10:51 AM
What this means is you cant exceed the the limit of ur capacity unless u break the boundary of Hollow/Shinigami. I dont think this makes all Vaizards/Arrancars stronger than a normal Shinigami/Hollow.

Example:
If the Limit of a normal Hollow/Shinigami is 100PowerRating, then maybe the crossbreed can increase it to 200PowerRating.
But this doesnt mean that it increases your powers.
If you are a Hollow with 70PowerRating, increasing the Limit will just make u a 70PowerRating Arrancar.
But if you're a Shinigami with 130PowerRating, you will only be producing a 100PowerRating output due to the limits. But by changing into an Vaizard, it will allow you to break the Limit and operate at ur full power of 130PowerRating.

That is: Yoruichi (chap 195) tells Urahara that Arrancar were more powerful than they had ever predicted. To me that means Urahara and his girlfriend knew that this trick was good for hollow either!!!!
Btw, i think your way to see the powerrating thing works good!!!!!(If an average shinigami has 100PR before and 130 after, probabli Ichigo would have something like 180/500!lol:o )

Tailsnake
July 09, 2007, 11:21 AM
Is that the dude who KOed chad in one hit? If it is, i doubt he's in the top 3. I mean if he were No.3 then chad WOULD NOT have survived that hit (Unless all of a sudden chad's right arm has more defense than inoue's barrier).

Chad's arm was strong enough to do serious damage to a captain back in the SS arc (stated by that captain with the twin swords), he's upgraded it twice since then (which should mean his shield arm should be more than capable of killing a captain) and released an arm that's several times more powerful than that. It's quite possible it is stronger than Orihime's barrier


The guy, who KOd Chad is NO.1 Espada Noitora
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/263/10/

The very fact that he feels a need to prove that he's the strongest means that there is no way that he's #1. It means that another Espada is #1 and he want's to prove that he is more powerful than that Espada because he feels it is undeserving of it's position. Noitora is most likely #2 or #3, but definately not #1.

notBowen
July 09, 2007, 04:45 PM
The guy, who KOd Chad is NO.1 Espada Noitora
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/263/10/
It has been said over and over, but I'll say it again: The fact that Noitora is constantly trying to prove himself the strongest and stating such and the fact that his "reveal" as the no. 1 Espada was so non-chalant, as in that page, it is highly unlikely, especially given the dramatic weight given to Ulquiorra's reveal as no. 4.

Omi
July 09, 2007, 06:38 PM
Espadas are rated based on their destructive potential rather than their strength or intelligence.

I wonder if Ichigo's mask is going to go all black anytime in the future. It could be showing the balance of his dark and light sides. Before it was mostly light. Now it is about 50-50. What next, he goes all dark and then all light?

For some reason, I think Ichigo's strength (at least Bankai) diminished alot after Soul Society. Take his Dad. He took out an arrancar without shikai. Ichigo has to go bankai to aparently hurt a hundredth digit arrancar eventhough he was previously capable of fighting one of the strongest captains.

dudekunle
July 09, 2007, 06:42 PM
For some reason, I think Ichigo's strength (at least Bankai) diminished alot after Soul Society. Take his Dad. He took out an arrancar without shikai. Ichigo has to go bankai to aparently hurt a hundredth digit arrancar eventhough he was previously capable of fighting one of the strongest captains.

Remember where Ichigo used to get most of his strenght and support from. Zangestu's vanished so Ichigo's had to improvise and fight alone for the most part. When he fought kenpachi, he said that it was him and zangetsu's combined power that defeated him. For a while, even, he had to hold back because of his hollow. So of course Ichigo's Bankai has gotten weaker, without Zangetsu's support.

Lord Rae
July 09, 2007, 06:43 PM
yeah his speed which is really all his bankai affects has been mitigated...remember his first attack on byakuya that he pulled off on? Where is that speed? we haven't seen it since although that may because he hurt himself with that much speed... (we've seen several people in both the manga and anime mention that the only increase he gets when he goes bankai is speed... you could maybe argue that the black getsuga's are stronger... but I dunno if they are much.... notice a chapter or two ago when a cero from grimm went right through his getsuga.... )

Anyway he definitely needs some new tricks.

and remember about the hundredth digit arrancar's they were the original members of the Espada meaning they were essentially captain class or higher characters all our hero's took on.

notBowen
July 09, 2007, 07:19 PM
yeah his speed which is really all his bankai affects has been mitigated...remember his first attack on byakuya that he pulled off on? Where is that speed? we haven't seen it since although that may because he hurt himself with that much speed... (we've seen several people in both the manga and anime mention that the only increase he gets when he goes bankai is speed... you could maybe argue that the black getsuga's are stronger... but I dunno if they are much.... notice a chapter or two ago when a cero from grimm went right through his getsuga.... )

Anyway he definitely needs some new tricks.

and remember about the hundredth digit arrancar's they were the original members of the Espada meaning they were essentially captain class or higher characters all our hero's took on.
Well you answered part of your question in the second part. The last time we saw speed like that from Ichigo was when he fought Dordonii.

platypus
July 09, 2007, 08:05 PM
I don't recall Ichigo showing that sort of speed during the doldoni fight. I mean, you could argue that it was an increase in his speed which led to his last attack catching doldoni off guard, but I always assumed it was cause he fired one of his fast getsuga tenshous (he didn't say it's name) which have always been fast.

In the doldoni fight we saw no speed from Ichigo himself that wasn't average (doldoni was faster at times)

notBowen
July 09, 2007, 09:17 PM
You are correct. I went back and reread the chapter. When I initially read it I misinterpreted the Dordonii being hit by the getsuga as a slash that he couldn't even comprehend ala Byakuya first meeting Ichigo, especially given his dialogue after, but I was mistaken. I think that Ichigo's bankai has become nothing but an outfit and weapon change at this point as well.

Lord Rae
July 09, 2007, 11:03 PM
I still say he's gonna get another sword beyond Bankai... I know that leads everyone to instantly scream dbz or whatever but I think since he never went back to the original sword his shikai has become his default normal form and since everyone in the bleach universe (except for Zaraki) has a normal form a release and a further release...Ichigo only has one release and if he has need for power above that he goes to the mask... but I think Zangetsu has another suprise in it. Maybe a real bankai something he couldn't control previously because of the hollows presence so old man Z just gave him the bankai speed update. Another level for Ichigo would increase his strength the way all the other bankai's seem to for other folks.

And I'd still argue the Zaraki conversation about where they both discussed having swords that didn't have releases was based on the false knowledge Zaraki was working under that his sword didn't have a name and never would.

I just feel like Ichigo is getting shorted by only having one level of release before has to fall back on the mask. Plus his Shikai release doesn't grant him any powers he didn't have access to when he had his regular sword. Sure he can do getsuga but when the first menos showed up the wound Ichigo put on it with his unreleased sword was a getsuga...he just didn't know what it was called or how he did it.

cleodux
July 09, 2007, 11:42 PM
hi guys... what a heat discussion... it seems everybody discuss about the power and such... nobody comment about how annoying orihime is? it is like she just wasting the panels >_<

anyway...
page8
GJ:If you break that mask again like last time, this will turn hella boring
Ichigo:If the mask breaks it will turn boring you say?...

Page9
Ichigo: DONT MAKE ME LAUGH. That is my line GrimmJow, it will be boring otherwise, so...

Page10
Ichigo:You better F***ING STAY IN THAT RELEASE STATE OF YOURS.

:)
am i wrong to say, there is a serious personality problem with Ichigo ^^

notBowen
July 10, 2007, 12:42 AM
Inoue is sort of being a killjoy for the reader finally seeing Ichigo grow a pair and fight Grimmjow with some passion behind it, but I have to say that the final page of this chapter was very memorable and left an impression on me, so I can forgive it. Besides, I think it's a good check on getting caught up in all this powerup bloodlust shonen LIVE FOR THE BATTLE crap that Ichigo has been running into since he fought Kenpachi.

mokney
July 10, 2007, 01:18 AM
she needs to be like that other its just action. Need a little drama.

2 points.

1) Bankai is increase in speed to maxmise his strength. The reason why he needs that is so he can use all his strength on quick opponents. Most likely something happened after losing to Ulqiorra so a flashback would be nice.

2)Zangetsu HAS been restored. In previous chapter ichigo said all he had to do was defeat shirosaki and zangetsu should return, shiro said thats only if he can beat. So Shirosaki is now that the core of his soul and zangetsu should be back. Re read the no shaking throne chapters. might give more clues

patrick_tambu
July 10, 2007, 07:59 AM
Inoue is sort of being a killjoy for the reader finally seeing Ichigo grow a pair and fight Grimmjow with some passion behind it, but I have to say that the final page of this chapter was very memorable and left an impression on me, so I can forgive it. Besides, I think it's a good check on getting caught up in all this powerup bloodlust shonen LIVE FOR THE BATTLE crap that Ichigo has been running into since he fought Kenpachi.

Yeah, seems to me that everytime Ichigo fights is there someone pushing him on a path he's not awared of! After all he's trying to rescue his nakama, seeking the power is the only way to do that, not the only porpouse!!!!!!

daniel1983
July 10, 2007, 10:35 AM
I don't think Ichigo's speed has decreased any......his opponent's speed has increased giving the perception that Ichigo is 'slower'.

Krillos
July 10, 2007, 12:04 PM
Is the dark-skinned female Arrancar's name really Halibel? I read the 282-translation over and over, yet I couldn't find it. Is it a made-up name or was her name mentioned in earlier chapters?

dudekunle
July 10, 2007, 12:38 PM
Is the dark-skinned female Arrancar's name really Halibel? I read the 282-translation over and over, yet I couldn't find it. Is it a made-up name or was her name mentioned in earlier chapters?

Its her official name, look at the chapter that the 9th espada was killed and the meeting that took place.

RealShinobi
July 10, 2007, 08:18 PM
hi guys... what a heat discussion... it seems everybody discuss about the power and such... nobody comment about how annoying orihime is? it is like she just wasting the panels >_<

anyway...
page8
GJ:If you break that mask again like last time, this will turn hella boring
Ichigo:If the mask breaks it will turn boring you say?...

Page9
Ichigo: DONT MAKE ME LAUGH. That is my line GrimmJow, it will be boring otherwise, so...

Page10
Ichigo:You better F***ING STAY IN THAT RELEASE STATE OF YOURS.

:)
am i wrong to say, there is a serious personality problem with Ichigo ^^
Its just Ichigo finally enjoying fighting. This is the reason why he is able to keep the mask on for so long now. He is giving in to his true nature.

Impel Down
July 10, 2007, 08:45 PM
So, can he wear it indefinitely now, or until his attitude goes away? I mean, even the real Vaizard have time limits.

Lord_Fuzzy
July 10, 2007, 09:09 PM
Ichigo is still not using all of his hollows power at the end of the no shaking throne chapters Hichigo said that if you want to use all of my power try not to die before i show up again so that would mean even now hes not at full power there has been no second meeting and he all but died a few chapters ago the time limit extension is just ichigo finally accepting his hollows nature and embracing it

ShinobiWrath
July 10, 2007, 09:35 PM
Ichigo is still not using all of his hollows power at the end of the no shaking throne chapters Hichigo said that if you want to use all of my power try not to die before i show up again so that would mean even now hes not at full power there has been no second meeting and he all but died a few chapters ago the time limit extension is just ichigo finally accepting his hollows nature and embracing it

Couldn't have said it better mysel. No I really couldn't I have a speech impediment.

tymemyst
July 10, 2007, 09:41 PM
I hope Grimjow joins ichigo and defeat ulqul

dudekunle
July 11, 2007, 06:36 AM
Couldn't have said it better mysel. No I really couldn't I have a speech impediment.

Now now, be nice. It's not his fault. Someone should have taught him about punctuations and such. He's an example of how crappy the schools systems here are. Its The United States' Tax dollars at work

ttxdragon
July 13, 2007, 10:41 AM
please remember that spoilers aren't supposed to be talked about in here, but in the following thread:


Bleach 283 Spoiler Discussion (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14972)