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gigantor21
July 15, 2007, 08:02 AM
Hey guy, how's it going?

I've been wondering about the role of the Vastorodes ever since Hitsugaya talked about them, particularly in regards to the power hierarchy in Bleach. There are a few things I want to know:

- If the Vastorodes aren't in the Espada yet, then how is there such a gap in strength between Yammi and the Primera? Aren't all of them Adjuucas? Will there be such a wide spectrum among the Vastorodes, then?

- Considering how strong Ulquiorra is, won't any Vastorodes put in the Espada be stronger than #1 by default? They are stronger than Captains already BEFORE being hybridized--so how the hell is anyone going to beat them?

- Is Aizen even stronger than they'll be after they become Arrancar?

Personally, I think that the Vastorodes' existance alone necessitates the role of the Vaizards in the War. And I think Kubo has been dodgy about their individual strengths to set this up.

So what do you guys think?

mugen
July 15, 2007, 08:15 AM
I think they are strong ....but then again we most likely saw the strongest Vastorode "Shinji:
so about the others I'm not sure but they probably strong enough to beat espada 10-7

gigantor21
July 15, 2007, 08:36 AM
^ Wait...Shinji's a Vaizard, not a Vastorode. Vastorode are the highest form of Menos.

mugen
July 15, 2007, 08:40 AM
shit you're right
anyways Vasto's are strong enough as it so maybe only Ichigo will beat them since he has bankai and vaizard mode...but maybe one or two will be taken out by your occasional stronger than average captain and vaizard ....but seems like Grimmjow is vaizard I mean his release state is human shaped ..somewhat at least ....

saadku
July 15, 2007, 09:29 AM
are the espada originally Adjuucas??

midiman
July 15, 2007, 09:45 AM
Wait i don't think only ichigo would be able to fight the modified Vastolorde becaus just now we saw shinji fight as Vaizard against an Espada but he didn't even use shikai or bankai to totally outdo grimmjaw.

I think shinji could take released-grimmjaw on if he uses his shikai and fights in his vaizard form

mugen
July 15, 2007, 10:43 AM
that is true he didn't even release his zanpaktou and was pawnin Grimmjow so yeah I'm pretty sure he can beat a Vastorode and Saadku ,no te espada are not all Adjuucas

Splat
July 15, 2007, 11:35 AM
I don't think that it was ever mentioned that there weren't any vastorode in the espada, since when hitsugaya talked about them, he didn't know about the espada, he only knew about arrancars (i think shawlong explained the espada to him). What hitsugaya did say was that 10 vastorode arrancars would spell doom for soul society, since a regular vastolorde, without becoming an arrancar could overpower a captain. I think ulquiorra has pointed out that he is an adjuchas, and therefore there an be at most 3 vastolorde arrancars, since ulquiorras number is 4, and a vastolorde arrancar would undoubtedly be stronger than he is. As for the rest of the espada, there is such a difference in their power because they have different levels of skill and experience, expecting them to all have the same power level would be the same as expecting all the captains to have the same power level, just because they have the same title, clearly yamamoto is much more powerful than soifon, for example, so adjuchas arrancar can have different levels of power too. Just as a final point, the hougyoku turns a vastorode/adjuchas/gillian into an arrancar, it cannot create a vastolorde, and hitsugaya said that vastorode were extremely rare, so their number is limited by that alone, and it isn't a case of aizen simply arrancarising them as he has to find them as well.

mugen
July 15, 2007, 11:55 AM
when did Ulquiorra state he is an adjuuca?
he is no adjuuca ,just look at his appearance it's more human like

chrisb3
July 15, 2007, 06:22 PM
When they explained about Menos Grande in the anime, they showed a siloette of an Adjucha and Vastrorode. The first two espada we saw where Yammi and Ulquorria who pretty much match the shape of those siloettes, especially when you look at the shape of their masks.
I don't think that this is a coincidence.

The espada are probally 4 or 5 Vastrorodes, 4 or 5 Adjucha and one Gillian.

There was a Adjucha in a recent anime filler episode, it seemed to be as powerful as an incomplete normal hollow arrancar and a similar size/shape. Can't wait to see a Vastrorode!

Splat
July 15, 2007, 06:40 PM
The mistake ur making with the original vastolorde and adjuchas that we saw silhouttes of, is that these were not arrancars, the released form of an arrancar would have to be human sized for them to be a vastolorde. So although it is possible that these were the silhouttes of ulquiorra and yammy, it would be their released form that we had seen a silhoutte of. By this logic, grimmjow could be a vastolorde because he has a small released form.

Also, it turns out that i was wrong earlier, ulquiorra hasn't said what class he is, this has given me the belief that the top six espada are vastolorde, with 3 adjuchas (7, 8, & 10) and one gillian.

Impel Down
July 15, 2007, 06:41 PM
Yeah, Sosuke was just saying that he wanted to gather ALL the Vasto Lorde, so he might already have some, those being probably Ulquiorra and up. And Sosuke said that the Numeros the Shinigami fought were the weakest kind of Gillian, so there could still be a huge difference in Yammy, an adjustas, and them.

Ripht
October 05, 2007, 11:42 AM
Hi was just looking in the art section and there where a few pics with this white hollow mask (i would guess) that had horns, It looks a bit like Nels mask but i'm not sure, any help on this?

Impel Down
October 05, 2007, 12:15 PM
I think it was just for the art spread that was made, but it's not clear yet. Some people say it was Neliel's mask, others say it's going to be an upgrade of Ichigo's mask.

Crude
October 05, 2007, 02:29 PM
It might have something to do with the exequias. They might show up. Maybe try to capture Nell?

Impel Down
October 05, 2007, 07:20 PM
Well, in the color spead, Shirosaki's face was below the mask, so maybe it does have something to do with him. Or it's just about Ichigo's inner pain and evil.

DordoniiOwnage
October 05, 2007, 07:23 PM
It may be hinting a sort of connection between Nell and Shirosaki? Since it kind of looks like Nell's mask.

Impel Down
October 05, 2007, 08:10 PM
But the eye holes and horns were different, as well as the patterns on it. And I doubt Neliel and Shirosaki can be connected, since Shirosaki isn't a separate entity.

macherie
October 05, 2007, 08:54 PM
Hmm i have a feeling it was related to Nell's mask, since it was starting to focus on her during that chapter. I dont think it'll be Ichigo's, would be nice though.

Impel Down
October 05, 2007, 09:13 PM
If it was Ichigo's new mask, that would kick so much ass. I hate his mask, anyway, so...

And it probably does involve Neliel somehow, but I don't think we'll ever truly know, that is, unless Oda-sensei explains it.

Ripht
October 06, 2007, 01:30 AM
I think that maybe in an effort to help ichigo to survive, nell will let ichigo's hollow "eat" her, and thus making him stronger, which could cause problems for ichigo i guess. But that would give him a new mask maybe, if nell becomes more dominat then ichigo's inner hollow, that would also make his hollow powers easier to control too.

KyleUchiha
October 06, 2007, 10:41 AM
I think that maybe in an effort to help ichigo to survive, nell will let ichigo's hollow "eat" her, and thus making him stronger, which could cause problems for ichigo i guess. But that would give him a new mask maybe, if nell becomes more dominat then ichigo's inner hollow, that would also make his hollow powers easier to control too.

I've been wondering about that ever since the Grimmjow's past was revealed. Can Vizards also consume other Hollows? Since the Hollows don't accept them, its probably not surprising that the Vizards themselves(or at least the ones we have seen) may not even know themselves, whether or not they can consume Hollows, or maybe they just don't want to.

But I could see that happening with Ichigo. Even he does eliminate the time limit on his mask, that doesn't seem to be enough, as it does seem he will need a significant power-up just to deal with the Espada 1-4. Not to mention the Vasto Lordes and Aizen.

Grant it, I don't think he will be consuming Hollows left and right, and there might be some different condition to consume the Hollows when you are a Vizard.

And if he did consume Nell, I wonder what would happen to her soul? Would she be there with Shirosaki?

And I wonder if it would not only change his mask, but could it change his Zanpakuto as well? And perhaps get a new attack.

Ripht
October 06, 2007, 11:28 AM
Also i was reading in another thread that when i hollow gets 2 horns on its mask it is a vasto lordes, so maybe the mask is shirosaki's vasto lordes mask?

macherie
October 06, 2007, 08:33 PM
Also i was reading in another thread that when i hollow gets 2 horns on its mask it is a vasto lordes, so maybe the mask is shirosaki's vasto lordes mask?

Hey that's really interesting and doesn't sound too be Ripht. Maybe it is related to Shirosaki moreso than Nell, although it looks an awful lot like Nell's =\. But hopefully it'll be connected to Ichigo and we'll see him in a more badass form =D

Silhouette
October 07, 2007, 04:42 AM
As much as I would love for Ichigo to have the "death mask" with the badass tattoo and blades for horns, I am afraid it was just a symbol of death to go with the statement "life and death reside within me". However, hollows do evolve like we saw in GJ and others previously so hope remains (darn teasers).


Also there is no relationship between having horns and being a vasto lorde. it's just a long shot speculation. I say that because we still have Halibel, Stark, the Black espada, and the old espada who don't have horns and yet 3 of them are ranked at top.

KyleUchiha
October 09, 2007, 07:24 AM
As much as I would love for Ichigo to have the "death mask" with the badass tattoo and blades for horns, I am afraid it was just a symbol of death to go with the statement "life and death reside within me". However, hollows do evolve like we saw in GJ and others previously so hope remains (darn teasers).


Also there is no relationship between having horns and being a vasto lorde. it's just a long shot speculation. I say that because we still have Halibel, Stark, the Black espada, and the old espada who don't have horns and yet 3 of them are ranked at top.

But they are top ranked espada aren't they? They aren't Vasto Lordes as far as we know.

And if they aren't, what makes you say just because they don't have horns, Vasto Lordes won't have them either. Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

Impel Down
October 09, 2007, 08:50 AM
Who says Vasto Lordes HAVE to have horns? All hollows look different, they just showed one with horns so people could draw the connection to Ulquiorra.

KyleUchiha
October 09, 2007, 09:31 AM
Well, I'm not saying they need to have horns, I'm just saying we can't rule it out. I think some are under the impression it might be a trademark for the Vasto Lordes to have, so you can identify them as such.

And the horns might be of different shapes and sizes, they don't all have to be the same as that one shown. They could be small, enormous, and uniquely shaped for any of the Vasto Lordes.

Impel Down
October 09, 2007, 03:10 PM
Well, considering Neliel was the 3rd Espada, she was probably a Vasto Lorde. And of course, based on her mask, that means she had horns.

KyleUchiha
October 09, 2007, 03:52 PM
Well, considering Neliel was the 3rd Espada, she was probably a Vasto Lorde. And of course, based on her mask, that means she had horns.

Or, it could mean that she will become one. Her horns are closed together, not sticking out, so maybe it is like in a "sleeping mode", if you will, until she reaches that level. If the horn thing is true, and if she does become a Vasto Lordes, the mask might change to the much talked about mask of 289(the color spread). Maybe her horns will become something more like that, or exactly like that if it is hers.

Neuroff
October 09, 2007, 09:25 PM
Well, I'm not saying they need to have horns, I'm just saying we can't rule it out. I think some are under the impression it might be a trademark for the Vasto Lordes to have, so you can identify them as such.

And the horns might be of different shapes and sizes, they don't all have to be the same as that one shown. They could be small, enormous, and uniquely shaped for any of the Vasto Lordes.
This horns thing is obviously something a random person just made up, and it's not even considering that Arrancar have broken masks. Even IF vastolordes all had horned masks, half of them wouldn't even have horns after they became arrancar. If you're going to go by horns, you could say Il Forte was a vastolorde, and he obviously wasn't.

KyleUchiha
October 10, 2007, 09:25 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f0/Vastolorde.jpg/180px-Vastolorde.jpg

I believe the theory of the horns arose with this image. I personally never thought about all Vasto lordes having horns until all the speculation arose surrounding it. And even now I'm taking the horns theory with a grain of salt, but I'm willing to believe it could be possible until we actually see them(seems like it will be a long time before we do see them,:( ), and you can't go by Il Forte because of the released form, when they are Vasto Lordes it was said that they are menos who take on a more humanoid form, and his released form wasn't like that. And there could something distinct about the horns of a Vasto Lordes compared to an arrancar or any hollow.

And I'm not saying any of the Arrancar are Vasto Lordes or were ever Vasto Lordes to begin with.

Neuroff
October 10, 2007, 03:45 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f0/Vastolorde.jpg/180px-Vastolorde.jpg

I believe the theory of the horns arose with this image. I personally never thought about all Vasto lordes having horns until all the speculation arose surrounding it. And even now I'm taking the horns theory with a grain of salt, but I'm willing to believe it could be possible until we actually see them(seems like it will be a long time before we do see them,:( ), and you can't go by Il Forte because of the released form, when they are Vasto Lordes it was said that they are menos who take on a more humanoid form, and his released form wasn't like that. And there could something distinct about the horns of a Vasto Lordes compared to an arrancar or any hollow.

And I'm not saying any of the Arrancar are Vasto Lordes or were ever Vasto Lordes to begin with.
I already figured it started because of that image. You don't mention the fact that while Hitsugaya is describing them, he only says they are small hollows. Nothing about every vastolorde having horns. Do you really think that when Grimmjow evolved from being an Adjucha to a Vastolorde, he would have grown horns on a Jaguar body? That makes absolutely no sense. The outline of a vastolorde is just that, an outline. There is only one vastolorde who looks like that.

Impel Down
October 10, 2007, 05:18 PM
I think they did that with the Vasto Lorde and Adjucha so that people would draw connections to Yammy and Ulquiorra. And we can't say that all Menos look like those silhouettes, since Grimmjow and various other Adjucha in the flash backs didn't look like that.

KyleUchiha
October 10, 2007, 08:23 PM
I already figured it started because of that image. You don't mention the fact that while Hitsugaya is describing them, he only says they are small hollows. Nothing about every vastolorde having horns. Do you really think that when Grimmjow evolved from being an Adjucha to a Vastolorde, he would have grown horns on a Jaguar body? That makes absolutely no sense. The outline of a vastolorde is just that, an outline. There is only one vastolorde who looks like that.

Actually he says their size resembles a human more than that of any other hollow, which is why I said a humanoid appearance, implying they looked like humans and had the size of humans.

And he says there are an unbelievably small number of them. Who is to say he has ever even seen a Vasto Lorde? He may not know that the horns is common trait, and even if he did know, he may not have felt he needed to tell Ichigo that, because knowing they had a humanoid appearance is pretty distinctive for any hollow.

And I would like to say Grimmjow having a jaguar body and then turning into an Arrancar who's released form looks like a cross between an elf, lizard, and Super Saiyan doesn't make any sense. When you become an Vasto Lorde your appearance might completely change, not just growing horns.


I think they did that with the Vasto Lorde and Adjucha so that people would draw connections to Yammy and Ulquiorra. And we can't say that all Menos look like those silhouettes, since Grimmjow and various other Adjucha in the flash backs didn't look like that.

And I agree, that is not what all Vasto Lorde will look like that. That could just be a generic looking form Kubo made. I'm sure they all look different, just like all of the Arrancar look different in their own unique way.


What also makes me curious is why we don't see more hollows with horns. Its such a distinctive and common design for monsters in many cultures, especially ones relating to death. And I'm sure Kubo is aware of that. Maybe it means he is saving it for the most powerful hollows, or maybe he doesn't like horns on his hollows that much.

And overall, I think its possible that none of the Espada are Vasto Lordes. I don't think they have been revealed. I think Aizen is saving them for when the Royal Guard are revealed, and that might be the real intention of creating them. But of course that's just speculation.

Neuroff
October 10, 2007, 11:54 PM
Actually he says their size resembles a human more than that of any other hollow, which is why I said a humanoid appearance, implying they looked like humans and had the size of humans.
Hitsugaya says nothing about humanoid appearance, he says they are human size.


And he says there are an unbelievably small number of them. Who is to say he has ever even seen a Vasto Lorde? He may not know that the horns is common trait, and even if he did know, he may not have felt he needed to tell Ichigo that, because knowing they had a humanoid appearance is pretty distinctive for any hollow.
Who cares if Hitsugaya has seen a vastolorde? His information is from the research department. I'm sure if they know enough about menos grande to know that vastolordes are human size, they've seen them and they would have noticed if they all had horns.


And I would like to say Grimmjow having a jaguar body and then turning into an Arrancar who's released form looks like a cross between an elf, lizard, and Super Saiyan doesn't make any sense. When you become an Vasto Lorde your appearance might completely change, not just growing horns.
Becoming an arrancar humanizes hollows. They ALL get a human-like body once their masks have been removed. A vastolorde is not going to have a changing hollow mask for no reason.


And overall, I think its possible that none of the Espada are Vasto Lordes. I don't think they have been revealed. I think Aizen is saving them for when the Royal Guard are revealed, and that might be the real intention of creating them. But of course that's just speculation.
I'd have to say that's pretty much impossible right now. Ichigo is already way above average captain-level. He can't even beat the fifth espada right now. With the huge difference between level from moving up even one espada rank, the first espada is much, much stronger than an average captain, which pretty much means there is at least one vastolorde. The candidates for this role? Stark, Halibel, Black Guy, and Old Guy. Hm, looks like none of them have those horns.

Ripht
October 11, 2007, 01:48 AM
Maybe kyle is right. What if there are no vasto lorde, they might not even want to help aizen. They might want to fight against him in the end, because he is destroying their way of life by creating powerful hollows artifically. And eventually if he does create vasto lorde the real vasto's might come and do what they do, fight them to absorb them and become stronger.

Have to remember that not all hollows are under aizens command, some don't even like aizen. But some real vasto lorde might have a degraded consisous mind from absorbing so many strong souls, so their actions could be more driven by instinict and not consisous thought.

Neuroff
October 11, 2007, 04:13 AM
Maybe kyle is right. What if there are no vasto lorde, they might not even want to help aizen. They might want to fight against him in the end, because he is destroying their way of life by creating powerful hollows artifically. And eventually if he does create vasto lorde the real vasto's might come and do what they do, fight them to absorb them and become stronger.
Hitsugaya defined a vastolorde's strength only as being stronger than a captain. Ichigo is way above an average captain, and he can't even beat Nnoitra. There is a large power gap between each espada, and that means that the top espada is easily at a vastolorde power level.

If a vastolorde actually tried to come eat espada vastolordes, it would be demolished. Not only would it be severely outnumbered, it doesn't have the humongous power boost that the espada have gained from becoming hybrids. That's not even considering Aizen's ridiculous power.


Have to remember that not all hollows are under aizens command, some don't even like aizen. But some real vasto lorde might have a degraded consisous mind from absorbing so many strong souls, so their actions could be more driven by instinict and not consisous thought.
I would have to seriously doubt that any vastolorde would have a degraded consciousness. Hollows gain intelligence and individuality as they evolve from gillian to adjucha. They only lose their individuality when they degenerate back into gillian. There is no way that a completely evolved hollow is going to lose its intelligence.

KyleUchiha
October 11, 2007, 08:38 AM
Hitsugaya says nothing about humanoid appearance, he says they are human size.

Yes you are right, he didn't say anything about human appearance, I was wrong.


Who cares if Hitsugaya has seen a vastolorde? His information is from the research department. I'm sure if they know enough about menos grande to know that vastolordes are human size, they've seen them and they would have noticed if they all had horns.

About the research department, what would you classify as enough? How do you know if they have only seen one or three? Aizen doesn't even have ten yet, so how could the research department have found more than that? Judging from everyone's thinking, Aizen may only have four. And just because they don't mention horns, doesn't mean they don't all have them.



Becoming an arrancar humanizes hollows. They ALL get a human-like body once their masks have been removed. A vastolorde is not going to have a changing hollow mask for no reason.

And how do you know when they become Vasto Lordes their masks don't change?

Gillians all look the same. Then they sometimes change into Adjucha. There is a huge difference in there in appearance. The same thing could happen if they change into a Vasto Lorde. And getting humanized by the transformation is one thing, but his released form looks nothing a like jaguar, and that is my point if they become Vasto Lordes, there appearance might again completely change.


I'd have to say that's pretty much impossible right now. Ichigo is already way above average captain-level. He can't even beat the fifth espada right now. With the huge difference between level from moving up even one espada rank, the first espada is much, much stronger than an average captain, which pretty much means there is at least one vastolorde. The candidates for this role? Stark, Halibel, Black Guy, and Old Guy. Hm, looks like none of them have those horns.

The Espada between numbers 10-5 aren't Vasto Lordes as far as we know and yet each lower ranking is vastly stronger than the previous. The same thing could be said for the rankings between 4-1. And those others probably don't have any horns because they aren't Vasto Lordes.


And I don't see how Ichigo beating them and then have to possibly beat the (true?) Vasto Lordes would be impossible when it is most likely that he will get more power-ups besides expanding the time limit on his mask. Just like in SS, he barely won against Renji before either of them achieved Ban Kai, and then ended up beating Byakuya at the end of SS. He will most likely gain a huge power-up in the Mundo arc that will allow him to be strong enough to at least handle the higher Espada.

And during the final arc he will probably gain some other major power-up that will allow him to be able to handle the possibly (true?) Vasto Lordes.


But what also makes me curious is that we assume Aizen will get eventually get 10 Vasto Lordes before he will attack SS. If the Espada 4-1 are Vasto Lordes, then that means(I suppose) the other Six will get numbers as well. Does that mean they will be replacing the 10-5 and be weaker than 4-1 or will they replace the 4-1, and that means the previous 4-1 will demoted to the 10-5 range. If that last part is the case, then that would be rather disappointing.

And I would like to say that if the Vasto Lordes don't have horns, they don't have horns. It is not like I'm wanting them to have horns. I'm perfectly willing to accept they may not have horns. But as far as we know, and until we are told otherwise, we can't say they don't have horns and we can't say that the 4-1 are Vasto Lordes just because Ichigo can't beat them right now. And even if the Vasto Lordes don't have horns, that doesn't meant the 4-1 Espada are Vasto Lordes.

Impel Down
October 11, 2007, 09:00 AM
Why can't Nnoitra be a Vasto Lorde, though? He's still very strong, and since Neliel was probably a Vasto Lorde, he's being able to stand his ground against her, so he may be as well.

And Aizen will probably replace all killed Espada with Vasto Lorde before the WW.

Ripht
October 11, 2007, 10:30 AM
Well i think that if Nnoitra was a vasto lorde wouldn't he have alrdy said so. Like "everyone you have fought up till now are just weaklings compared to a Vasto lorde like me" you know he seems like the kind of guy who would brag about how much stronger he is.

I really doubt there are any Vasto Lorde's in the Espada rankings.

And if a Vasto lorde is only a bit stronger then a captain why did Hitsugaya say something about SS being doomed even if he only has 5. To me that suggests that Vasto Lorde is at least 2xCaptain level. Ichigo is higher then the average captain so maybe he's like 1.3-1.5xcaptain level. and the top espada are like 1.5-1.9 captain level. That would make more sense. I mean yamachi is meant to be the 10th espada but if you ask me he's just about captain level. And then look at the vizard they seem to be just as strong as maybe 10-5 of the espada (because of their time limit).

But yea i only through the horned mask might be vasto lorde because of another thread i saw saying something about it. This was meant to be talking about the Mask on the coloured spread from a couple of chapters back.

KyleUchiha
October 11, 2007, 11:10 AM
Why can't Nnoitra be a Vasto Lorde, though? He's still very strong, and since Neliel was probably a Vasto Lorde, he's being able to stand his ground against her, so he may be as well.

And Aizen will probably replace all killed Espada with Vasto Lorde before the WW.


Well, I just used 4-1 as an example since that seems to be the common number for what people think of which Espada are Vasto Lordes , so I was not meaning to say he couldn't be a Vasto Lorde if the others were as well. If the the Espada between 4-1 were Vasto Lordes, it would make more sense for him to be a Vasto Lorde, because if he wasn't, why was he always going on about being the most powerful Espada. But if they were Vasto Lordes, you would think Aizen would be a little more careful about what happens to his Vasto Lordes, as he does need them to take down SS and fight the Royal Guards, and he can't do that if they are getting beaten.

Grant it, Aizen might not be aware of how well his Espada are doing, and didn't think Ichigo could defeat them, but he saw what happened with Ichigo in SS, and Aizen is not an idiot, so you think he wouldn't underestimate them.

Impel Down
October 11, 2007, 11:14 AM
Well, Grimmjow seemed to be a exceptionally strong adjuscas when he was still a menos, so he was probably borderline Vasto Lorde, which would make Nnoitra probably a Vasto Lorde. Although, if he had always been one, then why was he originally the eighth Espada?

Ripht
October 11, 2007, 02:06 PM
Well, Grimmjow seemed to be a exceptionally strong adjuscas when he was still a menos, so he was probably borderline Vasto Lorde, which would make Nnoitra probably a Vasto Lorde. Although, if he had always been one, then why was he originally the eighth Espada?

I don't even know where you are goin any more you seem to be calling anyone with a number tattoo'd on them an vasto

ttxdragon
October 11, 2007, 03:20 PM
I don't even know where you are goin any more you seem to be calling anyone with a number tattoo'd on them an vasto
Impel is raising a good point on Noitora there, nothing along the lines of calling everyone with a number a vasto-lorde.
Since we know Noitora was 8th a while back and now 5th, he shouldn't be a vasto lorde, but a well trained adjucca-arrancar.
Which bases on us knowing that Grimmjow -- 6th espada -- is a highlevel adjucca-arrancar too.

BUT that's pretty much besides the point of this thread,
so please, get back on topic everyone >_<

Impel Down
October 11, 2007, 03:32 PM
But then, if that's the case, then the 1-4 Espada could have started out at a low level and gotten stronger as well, and they wouldn't necessarily be Vasto Lorde. Hell, Grimmjow could have started off as the 10th Espada before he jumped up.

Although, to make everything fit, Nnoitra would be the only one training to get up ranks, so everyone was the same level of power except for him, but the ranks were all just moved around. That could still make some of the higher ups Vasto Lorde.

Neuroff
October 11, 2007, 09:13 PM
About the research department, what would you classify as enough? How do you know if they have only seen one or three? Aizen doesn't even have ten yet, so how could the research department have found more than that? Judging from everyone's thinking, Aizen may only have four. And just because they don't mention horns, doesn't mean they don't all have them.
Aizen just recently went into Hueco Mundo. Soul Society has been killing hollows for thousands of years. I would expect that they've fought at least a few vastolordes, especially if they know they are stronger than captains.


And how do you know when they become Vasto Lordes their masks don't change?

Gillians all look the same. Then they sometimes change into Adjucha. There is a huge difference in there in appearance. The same thing could happen if they change into a Vasto Lorde. And getting humanized by the transformation is one thing, but his released form looks nothing a like jaguar, and that is my point if they become Vasto Lordes, there appearance might again completely change.
Yes, it's possible that their masks change when they become vastolordes. But to think they will all grow horns makes absolutely no sense.


The Espada between numbers 10-5 aren't Vasto Lordes as far as we know and yet each lower ranking is vastly stronger than the previous. The same thing could be said for the rankings between 4-1. And those others probably don't have any horns because they aren't Vasto Lordes.
Grimmjow was on the verge of becoming a vastolorde. The huge power difference between him and the higher espada indicates that there HAVE to be vastolordes.


And I don't see how Ichigo beating them and then have to possibly beat the (true?) Vasto Lordes would be impossible when it is most likely that he will get more power-ups besides expanding the time limit on his mask. Just like in SS, he barely won against Renji before either of them achieved Ban Kai, and then ended up beating Byakuya at the end of SS. He will most likely gain a huge power-up in the Mundo arc that will allow him to be strong enough to at least handle the higher Espada.

And during the final arc he will probably gain some other major power-up that will allow him to be able to handle the possibly (true?) Vasto Lordes.
I'm only using Ichigo as a comparison for their power levels. Ichigo at this point, is at the power level of a vastolorde, stronger than captains. You can say that the cause for Grimmjow/Nnoitra being this strong is hybridization, but that is only going to go so far.


But what also makes me curious is that we assume Aizen will get eventually get 10 Vasto Lordes before he will attack SS. If the Espada 4-1 are Vasto Lordes, then that means(I suppose) the other Six will get numbers as well. Does that mean they will be replacing the 10-5 and be weaker than 4-1 or will they replace the 4-1, and that means the previous 4-1 will demoted to the 10-5 range. If that last part is the case, then that would be rather disappointing.
What makes no sense to me is that people think Soul Society should just allow Aizen to get those 10 vastolordes before he attacks. It would be a far better strategy to start the fight BEFORE he gets to full strength.


And I would like to say that if the Vasto Lordes don't have horns, they don't have horns. It is not like I'm wanting them to have horns. I'm perfectly willing to accept they may not have horns. But as far as we know, and until we are told otherwise, we can't say they don't have horns and we can't say that the 4-1 are Vasto Lordes just because Ichigo can't beat them right now. And even if the Vasto Lordes don't have horns, that doesn't meant the 4-1 Espada are Vasto Lordes.
That is the exact opposite of what you should be doing. If you've only seen one human being in your life and they had brown hair, you shouldn't just assume that EVERYONE has brown hair.


Well i think that if Nnoitra was a vasto lorde wouldn't he have alrdy said so. Like "everyone you have fought up till now are just weaklings compared to a Vasto lorde like me" you know he seems like the kind of guy who would brag about how much stronger he is.

I really doubt there are any Vasto Lorde's in the Espada rankings.
I think that would actually have been a completely ridiculous thing to say. Chad didn't even hear about what a vastolorde is. He would have just been standing there confused.


And if a Vasto lorde is only a bit stronger then a captain why did Hitsugaya say something about SS being doomed even if he only has 5. To me that suggests that Vasto Lorde is at least 2xCaptain level. Ichigo is higher then the average captain so maybe he's like 1.3-1.5xcaptain level. and the top espada are like 1.5-1.9 captain level. That would make more sense. I mean yamachi is meant to be the 10th espada but if you ask me he's just about captain level. And then look at the vizard they seem to be just as strong as maybe 10-5 of the espada (because of their time limit).
He said they would be doomed if he had 10, not 5. It's pretty easy to do the math with that. 10 vastolordes, Aizen, Gin, and Tousen against 10 captains. It's pretty clear who would have the advantage.


Well, I just used 4-1 as an example since that seems to be the common number for what people think of which Espada are Vasto Lordes , so I was not meaning to say he couldn't be a Vasto Lorde if the others were as well. If the the Espada between 4-1 were Vasto Lordes, it would make more sense for him to be a Vasto Lorde, because if he wasn't, why was he always going on about being the most powerful Espada. But if they were Vasto Lordes, you would think Aizen would be a little more careful about what happens to his Vasto Lordes, as he does need them to take down SS and fight the Royal Guards, and he can't do that if they are getting beaten.

Grant it, Aizen might not be aware of how well his Espada are doing, and didn't think Ichigo could defeat them, but he saw what happened with Ichigo in SS, and Aizen is not an idiot, so you think he wouldn't underestimate them.
And we haven't seen espada 1-3 fight have we?

Ripht
October 12, 2007, 01:53 AM
I think that would actually have been a completely ridiculous thing to say. Chad didn't even hear about what a vastolorde is. He would have just been standing there confused.

Who said he has to say it to chad??? he's met ichigo too and fought him even if ichigo was weakened. And the only reason that Nnoitra went up in the ranks of the espada was that he kept killing those with a higher rank. So if he kills like 6th rank he becomes the 6th rank. But he doesn't need to be stronger then the 6th to kill him. He could catch him by surprise or after a battle and kill them in a weakened state which is exactly what he did to chad and almost to ichigo.

And i havn't seen a huge power leap inbetween grimmjaw (6th) and Nnoitra(5th) grimmjaw had just finished a huge battle against ichigo and lost, so Nnoitra would have been able to own him in his weakened state. And remember even tho ichigo was only a little better then grimmjaw with his mask on, he was fighting Nnoitra without anymask and after an extreme battle, and wasn't doing too bad (e.g. he wasn't killed with one hit). Of course he wouldn't have won tho, but if he was at full power i see no reason why he wouldn't be able to beat him.

Anyway please get this back on topic because its goin to get locked.

Neuroff
October 12, 2007, 05:22 AM
Who said he has to say it to chad??? he's met ichigo too and fought him even if ichigo was weakened. And the only reason that Nnoitra went up in the ranks of the espada was that he kept killing those with a higher rank. So if he kills like 6th rank he becomes the 6th rank. But he doesn't need to be stronger then the 6th to kill him. He could catch him by surprise or after a battle and kill them in a weakened state which is exactly what he did to chad and almost to ichigo.
Chad was completely fine after his fight. He just isn't even close to strong enough to fight higher espada.

And i havn't seen a huge power leap inbetween grimmjaw (6th) and Nnoitra(5th) grimmjaw had just finished a huge battle against ichigo and lost, so Nnoitra would have been able to own him in his weakened state. And remember even tho ichigo was only a little better then grimmjaw with his mask on, he was fighting Nnoitra without anymask and after an extreme battle, and wasn't doing too bad (e.g. he wasn't killed with one hit). Of course he wouldn't have won tho, but if he was at full power i see no reason why he wouldn't be able to beat him.

Anyway please get this back on topic because its goin to get locked.[/QUOTE]
Ichigo beat Grimmjow after the mask fell off. He was easily damaging Grimmjow with and without the mask. He can't even make a scratch on Nnoitra right now. He is MUCH stronger than Grimmjow. There isn't even an argument there.

KyleUchiha
October 12, 2007, 08:19 AM
Aizen just recently went into Hueco Mundo. Soul Society has been killing hollows for thousands of years. I would expect that they've fought at least a few vastolordes, especially if they know they are stronger than captains.

And how many would you venture to say they killed? And how many Soul Reapers are going to Hueco Mundo these last couple thousand years? And since they are stronger than the average Captain, that means they couldn't go alone, and then that means there would be less Captains at SS, so I doubt SS sent them on Scientific explorations and not to mention the possibility of dying there if they got outnumbered.



Yes, it's possible that their masks change when they become vastolordes. But to think they will all grow horns makes absolutely no sense.


To think that they can't makes no sense.


Grimmjow was on the verge of becoming a vastolorde. The huge power difference between him and the higher espada indicates that there HAVE to be vastolordes.

Regardless of whether he was about to become one or not, that doesn't mean the others are Vasto Lordes. And like you said we haven't seen the 3-1 Espada, we don't know how much more powerful they are, to say that they have to be Vasto Lordes for the sole reason
of being more powerful doesn't make any sense.


I'm only using Ichigo as a comparison for their power levels. Ichigo at this point, is at the power level of a vastolorde, stronger than captains. You can say that the cause for Grimmjow/Nnoitra being this strong is hybridization, but that is only going to go so far.

There you are just making an assumption he is as strong as a Vasto Lordes. We don't know if he is as strong as a Vasto Lorde. When Ichigo defeated Kenpachi, Kenpachi was a captain right? So he should be able to defeat other Captains right? Well he needed Bankai to defeat another Captain. Its similar with the Espada. Just because Ichigo can defeat one Espada and can't defeat another stronger Espada, doesn't mean that other Espada is a Vasto Lordes just because Ichigo can't beat him.



What makes no sense to me is that people think Soul Society should just allow Aizen to get those 10 vastolordes before he attacks. It would be a far better strategy to start the fight BEFORE he gets to full strength.

I've wondered the same thing, why wait until he gets full strength. Why not just attack him now? They know what he is doing, or at least they know he will attack them. Perhaps SS is preparing something, or maybe for SS to attack they would need to send so much of their force that it would leave SS itself too vulnerable for attack.


That is the exact opposite of what you should be doing. If you've only seen one human being in your life and they had brown hair, you shouldn't just assume that EVERYONE has brown hair.

But everyone at least grows hair some point in their life, don't they? And unless they have a hereditary problem for baldness they will grow hair. The same could be said for two eyes, legs arms, and fingers as long as you weren't born deformed or involved in an accident. And your statement works both ways, just because we know have seen one Vasto Lorde, doesn't mean you can't say they all don't have horns. Your example used color and I wouldn't believe all Arrancar to have Blue hair or black hair, but I would expect them to have a hole and features resembling a hollow, and horns could just be a common hollow feature on Vasto Lordes.




And we haven't seen espada 1-3 fight have we?


Precisely. Meaning we don't know how strong they are. We can't say they are Vasto Lordes just because we know they are powerful. And we can't rule out them being Vasto Lordes either.

And even if we do see their strength, Aizen won't just be attacking with just Vasto Lordes, he will use everyone at his disposal, Espada, Gillian, Hollows. The Captains can be busy with the Vasto Lordes but there are also the Vice-Captains and the ranks below that. So Aizen will need to attack them as well. And the more Ichigo and his friends run around defeating his Espada and hollows, that means less of his forces to attack SS and he will have to create more before the attack.

The smartest thing to do is for him to go down there, defeat them and kill them and be done with it. Not let them run around all over the place and just thinking of this as a game. Really, it would probably just take him five minutes considering how weakened everyone is, and I'm sure he could send scouts that can tell him the exact location of the intruders.

Neuroff
October 13, 2007, 07:00 AM
And how many would you venture to say they killed? And how many Soul Reapers are going to Hueco Mundo these last couple thousand years? And since they are stronger than the average Captain, that means they couldn't go alone, and then that means there would be less Captains at SS, so I doubt SS sent them on Scientific explorations and not to mention the possibility of dying there if they got outnumbered.
It's more likely that they attacked Soul Society, considering that there are way more strong hollows than strong shinigami.


To think that they can't makes no sense.
You can't make judgements about an entire population based on one subject. That is exactly what you're doing.


Regardless of whether he was about to become one or not, that doesn't mean the others are Vasto Lordes. And like you said we haven't seen the 3-1 Espada, we don't know how much more powerful they are, to say that they have to be Vasto Lordes for the sole reason
of being more powerful doesn't make any sense.
Being much stronger than someone who was almost a vastolorde basically means they were at least as strong as a weak vastolorde before becoming arrancar. That makes it highly likely that they're vastolordes.


There you are just making an assumption he is as strong as a Vasto Lordes. We don't know if he is as strong as a Vasto Lorde. When Ichigo defeated Kenpachi, Kenpachi was a captain right? So he should be able to defeat other Captains right? Well he needed Bankai to defeat another Captain. Its similar with the Espada. Just because Ichigo can defeat one Espada and can't defeat another stronger Espada, doesn't mean that other Espada is a Vasto Lordes just because Ichigo can't beat him.
You realize that Ichigo is MUCH stronger than when they were in Soul Society. Not only does he have more control of his bankai, he has full control over his hollow as well. I didn't say Nnoitra was a vastolorde. He could just be at that power level because of the power boost of being an arrancar. However, the fact that there are 4 more arrancar at much higher strength than he is makes it very unlikely that there isn't at least one.


I've wondered the same thing, why wait until he gets full strength. Why not just attack him now? They know what he is doing, or at least they know he will attack them. Perhaps SS is preparing something, or maybe for SS to attack they would need to send so much of their force that it would leave SS itself too vulnerable for attack.
I'd have to say it's for two reasons. Soul Society is completely stupid, and it makes the final battle cooler if everyone is at full power.


But everyone at least grows hair some point in their life, don't they? And unless they have a hereditary problem for baldness they will grow hair. The same could be said for two eyes, legs arms, and fingers as long as you weren't born deformed or involved in an accident. And your statement works both ways, just because we know have seen one Vasto Lorde, doesn't mean you can't say they all don't have horns. Your example used color and I wouldn't believe all Arrancar to have Blue hair or black hair, but I would expect them to have a hole and features resembling a hollow, and horns could just be a common hollow feature on Vasto Lordes.
A hole and mask are features that all hollows share. Horns are not. You can find horns on random hollows of all classes, yet you try to nullify that by saying the horns have to be distinct somehow. That is just way too big of a stretch to have any credibility.

Precisely. Meaning we don't know how strong they are. We can't say they are Vasto Lordes just because we know they are powerful. And we can't rule out them being Vasto Lordes either.


And even if we do see their strength, Aizen won't just be attacking with just Vasto Lordes, he will use everyone at his disposal, Espada, Gillian, Hollows. The Captains can be busy with the Vasto Lordes but there are also the Vice-Captains and the ranks below that. So Aizen will need to attack them as well. And the more Ichigo and his friends run around defeating his Espada and hollows, that means less of his forces to attack SS and he will have to create more before the attack.

The smartest thing to do is for him to go down there, defeat them and kill them and be done with it. Not let them run around all over the place and just thinking of this as a game. Really, it would probably just take him five minutes considering how weakened everyone is, and I'm sure he could send scouts that can tell him the exact location of the intruders.
Yes, but with 10 vastolordes, Aizen will have a huge advantage on the captains. Then the adjucha would have a huge advantage on the VCs. And the Gillian would easily take care of the rest. Soul Society would have no chance. Of course this is assuming the neutral characters don't help.

KyleUchiha
October 13, 2007, 08:35 AM
It's more likely that they attacked Soul Society, considering that there are way more strong hollows than strong shinigami.

And that may have been true in the beginning when they first appeared, but if they did, and considering their numbers, it was probably only one at a time that attacked, and I would imagine word eventually got out that you don't SS by yourself unless you have an impressive army. So the possibility of them continuing to attack knowing it would be the death of them, they probably learned to stay away.


You can't make judgements about an entire population based on one subject. That is exactly what you're doing.


Not to be rude, but you are doing the same thing by really suggesting it isn't possible that all Vasto Lordes have horns.

And as I said before, its perfectly possible that they all don't have horns, but considering we have not been told if any of the Espada are Vasto Lordes, we can't rule it out either argument.


Being much stronger than someone who was almost a vastolorde basically means they were at least as strong as a weak vastolorde before becoming arrancar. That makes it highly likely that they're vastolordes.

Almost a Vasto Lorde. That is the key word there. You are not a Vasto Lorde until you have become one and transformed. He was not a transformed Vasto Lorde, so you cannot say he was as strong as a weak Vasto Lorde when he was never one to begin with.
And again, you are doing the same thing you told me I was doing. You are making judgments based on one subject. We were told they were stronger than average Captains, but that doesn't mean you have to be a Vasto Lorde to be stronger than a Captain.


You realize that Ichigo is MUCH stronger than when they were in Soul Society. Not only does he have more control of his bankai, he has full control over his hollow as well. I didn't say Nnoitra was a vastolorde. He could just be at that power level because of the power boost of being an arrancar. However, the fact that there are 4 more arrancar at much higher strength than he is makes it very unlikely that there isn't at least one.

And you realize there are several other Espada above number 5 that are stronger than what Ichigo was at Bankai.And he defeated two captains, so that means Ichigo is at least at a Captain level with his Bankai, and now he has better control over his Bankai but he has needed his mask to defeat or at least stand a chance against the ones he has encountered. I'm not doubting he is much stronger. But you seem to think just because you are stronger than a captain, you must be a Vasto Lorde or at least as strong as one.

And how do you know that when the Espada(5-1) were Adjuchas, they were not stronger than what Grimmjow was when he was an Adjucha? Everyone has their peaks. No one ever said he was the most possibly strongest Adjucha. Grimmjow's peak as an Adjucha may simply not be the peak of other hollows. The other ones could have just been stronger Adjucha ,and becoming Arrancar just made them stronger than what he was.



I'd have to say it's for two reasons. Soul Society is completely stupid, and it makes the final battle cooler if everyone is at full power.

That's could always be true.


A hole and mask are features that all hollows share. Horns are not. You can find horns on random hollows of all classes, yet you try to nullify that by saying the horns have to be distinct somehow. That is just way too big of a stretch to have any credibility.

Well, I don't remember seeing horns on average hollows or Gillians, but also you don't mention on how few hollows we have seen with horns. I'm not saying every class of all hollows can't have horns, in fact I'd say very possible, but just because Vasto Lordes may have all horns, doesn't mean lesser classes can't have horns as well. I'm not saying horns make you a Vasto Lorde, I'm just saying that it is possible that they may all have horns, and that even average hollows or other classes can have horns, but it just may not be that common on them.




Yes, but with 10 vastolordes, Aizen will have a huge advantage on the captains. Then the adjucha would have a huge advantage on the VCs. And the Gillian would easily take care of the rest. Soul Society would have no chance. Of course this is assuming the neutral characters don't help.

Yes, I'm not saying that SS could easily win or even if they could win, I was just saying he just couldn't defeat SS with just Vasto Lordes and then defeat the Royal Guards right after the fact. But yeah, you are probably right there.

Silhouette
October 13, 2007, 06:24 PM
Please you guys stick to topic and don't take things personal.
If you disagree with something then please simply state your opinion and reasons without turning a discussion into a confrontation.
Thanks for your cooperation :)

As for the topic, we don't really know how Vasto Lordes look like. All we know is that VLs are rare creatures and later we learned that it takes hundreds or maybe thousands of years for hollows to become VLs plus not even all hollows have the natural os I should say super natural ability to become one.

Nel has has a horned mask and she used to be no 3. However, by looking at the current more powerful espadas, 3 of the remaining espadas (Stark, Halibel, old guy and black espada) are the current top 3 ones, they are stronger than Nel and yet non of them have horns on their masks. In other words, if there is a VL among the espadas then the primiera espada should be that VL. But the current primiera espada doesn't have horns, even though he/she is stronger than Nel and always has been

I personally think there are non among the ranks of the espadas, I maybe right and maybe wrong but the reason I think so is because Aizen said that he's still waiting for the assembling Vasto Lordes. He didn't talk about using the Hogyuoku on them like he did on the espadas, maybe because they are already too powerful or maybe because they are not as (relatively ) submissive as adjucas (like GJ).

Just my 2 cents after all.

Neuroff
October 14, 2007, 06:02 AM
Not to be rude, but you are doing the same thing by really suggesting it isn't possible that all Vasto Lordes have horns.

And as I said before, its perfectly possible that they all don't have horns, but considering we have not been told if any of the Espada are Vasto Lordes, we can't rule it out either argument.

Well, I don't remember seeing horns on average hollows or Gillians, but also you don't mention on how few hollows we have seen with horns. I'm not saying every class of all hollows can't have horns, in fact I'd say very possible, but just because Vasto Lordes may have all horns, doesn't mean lesser classes can't have horns as well. I'm not saying horns make you a Vasto Lorde, I'm just saying that it is possible that they may all have horns, and that even average hollows or other classes can have horns, but it just may not be that common on them.
Look at chapters 45-47 where you can see plenty of low hollows with horns. There's also the beef/pork hollow, Il Forte Grantz, etc. It makes absolutely no sense for a distinguishing feature of a vastolorde to be horns when there's already tons of weak hollows that have horns. Yes, it's possible, but the likelihood of vastolordes growing horns when they evolve would be about 0.000001%.


Almost a Vasto Lorde. That is the key word there. You are not a Vasto Lorde until you have become one and transformed. He was not a transformed Vasto Lorde, so you cannot say he was as strong as a weak Vasto Lorde when he was never one to begin with.
And again, you are doing the same thing you told me I was doing. You are making judgments based on one subject. We were told they were stronger than average Captains, but that doesn't mean you have to be a Vasto Lorde to be stronger than a Captain.

And you realize there are several other Espada above number 5 that are stronger than what Ichigo was at Bankai.And he defeated two captains, so that means Ichigo is at least at a Captain level with his Bankai, and now he has better control over his Bankai but he has needed his mask to defeat or at least stand a chance against the ones he has encountered. I'm not doubting he is much stronger. But you seem to think just because you are stronger than a captain, you must be a Vasto Lorde or at least as strong as one.

And how do you know that when the Espada(5-1) were Adjuchas, they were not stronger than what Grimmjow was when he was an Adjucha? Everyone has their peaks. No one ever said he was the most possibly strongest Adjucha. Grimmjow's peak as an Adjucha may simply not be the peak of other hollows. The other ones could have just been stronger Adjucha ,and becoming Arrancar just made them stronger than what he was.
Yes, it's possible that somehow none of them are vastolordes, but not likely. There are 5 espada at vastolorde strength. I'd find it very hard to believe that ALL of them are just very, very strong adjucha, especially when their strength goes up with their ranking. Not only that, by the whole horns theory, Ulquiorra would be a vastolorde.

KyleUchiha
October 14, 2007, 07:39 AM
With regards to the topic of the thread, I do believe that is Nell's mask, as it does look very similar to her own. Given that mask was shown just before her fight with Nnoitra, I'd say it would have to have some special significance concerning her, though it might concern Ichigo as well since he is shown on the page of the mask as well. Though maybe it just symbolizing
Ichigo's connection with Nell, their bond of now being involved with each other's problems.

And to Neuroff, Yes indeed you are right, there are several hollows with horns. But as I said, its very possible for the hollows to have horns while Vasto Lordes all have horns. I believe it is possible because it is just another large step in their evolution and horns may come with them. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, I don't know. And the whole horns theory doesn't mean that Ulquiorra is a Vasto Lorde. Its means he has horns and other hollows can also have horns while still all Vasto Lordes could have horns. I'm not saying horns makes you Vasto Lorde.

(And despite our disagreements, I have enjoyed this discussion with you and the others.)

Ripht
October 14, 2007, 07:44 AM
Yes, it's possible that somehow none of them are vastolordes, but not likely. There are 5 espada at vastolorde strength. I'd find it very hard to believe that ALL of them are just very, very strong adjucha, especially when their strength goes up with their ranking. Not only that, by the whole horns theory, Ulquiorra would be a vastolorde.

And how do u know what vasto lorde strength is, you would have had to travel to the future to find out, because we havn't seen a vasto lorde yet

matrice
October 14, 2007, 04:54 PM
And how do u know what vasto lorde strength is, you would have had to travel to the future to find out, because we havn't seen a vasto lorde yet

Well, considering that it was stated that they are stronger than a captain and that GJ was almost at vasto-lorde level one can make an idea of their level. Now, with arrancarization hollows gain a huge powerup, so I think that even the arrancarized GJ is past the vastolorde-level of strenght. Really, the fact that Noitora didn't mention to be a vastolorde when he was fighting against Ichigo doesn't prove anything, since neither GJ said that he was a top adjucas (we only know that from the flashback). In my opinion people are just giving too much importance to the vasto-lorde thing. The key point is that they are arrancar, so they are already past the vastolorde thing (at least if we choose the top arrancar). If you aren't convinced try to think about that: the only gillian in the espada group was the number nine, all the other ones are at least adjucas. If someone like Yami is an adjucas (and Urahara could beat him around at ease) and GJ a tip-rated adjucas/almost at the vastolorde level, it's pretty much clear that the first five espada were vastolorde when they were hollows. Now you says that they weren't because Noitora started as the number eight, but again, number nine was a gillian, while number ten is an adjucas. The power levels aren't decided with this sort of linear logic.
To summarize: I think that at least the top five espada were vastolorde when they were hollows, and that now Ichigo is almost at the lovel of a vastolorde hollow. Considering that he has beat GJ, this should go just fine. However, now that Aizen is creating arrancars with the Hogyoku, the power levels are to be completely resettled and Ichigo's power clearly isn't at a good enough level.

gfire2
October 14, 2007, 09:54 PM
well since neil was number 3 wat abt the previous numbeer 1 and 2? since they were arracarnized without the houkygou does that mean vastrolords onli exist as 'pure' hollows or a as arrancar with swords

i believe true vastrolords are shinigami that have failed to control there hollows so with or without horns it doesnt realli matter coz since vastrolords are so unique that traits such as horns and holes mite not appear in them

so they just mite be some pure destructive force that has no control until houkygou is used on them to bring some senses back to them ie fuse their shinigami powers and hollows power completeli and turn into a new beings that has memories of its past but no feelings towards their past life.

Vegetoacs
April 15, 2008, 09:04 PM
While thinking about a theory I later checked and all but dismissed (Ill explain that little observation at the end), I couldnt help but realise something else. Aizen has left the care of Las Noches entirely to Ulquiorra, knowing full well that Byukuya, Mayuri, Unohana and Kenpachi, as well as Ichigo and company. are busy waring there right now, despite the fact they've already engaged in a few battles, none the less won those fairly decisively. Also knowing full well that Unohana being present to heal them, and make them ready to do battle again. He knows that just before he left, Nnoitoria fell to Kenpachi. And yet, he left care of Las Noches solely to Ulquiorra.

Perhaps this includes control of Las Noches's hollow army, but for all intents and purposes, the army counts for little against the might of four captains, their lieutenants, and Ichigo's group. From this perspective, Ulquiorra is either insanely strong as the fourth Espada, able to stand up to the odds that face him (which would say a fair bit about the next three up), or he's to be another of Aizen's "sacrifices".

Perhaps Aizen is letting Las Noches fall on the presumption he's going to get the Ou-Ken and hurry off to the King's dimension....something I can't see him doing in light of the fact there is Zero Squad there. Granted, we dont know about the capacities or strengths of the people within the King's Realm, or that of Zero squad, but this all seems like Aizen might be spreading himself a bit thin, unless he and the Vastrolorde Arrancar are simply so powerful they can just slaughter anything. (Either that, or Aizen really has obtained some Hollow powers and is just beyond our definition of strong. Imagine if Aizen had to face his own inner hollow, with powers comparable to his own XD)

In any case, Chapter 315 indicated that Aizen doesn't appear to be very worried about the fact he's faced with a sizeable portion of Soul Society's main force, even going so far as to suggest they're not going to even break a sweat.

Another thought I had when looking back over this and writing this up was....where the hell are Gin and Tousen. Didn't they go off into a portal as well? Yet they're not with Aizen, and they're not in the Las Noches throne room.....on another mission perhaps to Soul Society....or to fetch the original key from it's hiding place?

Finally, the thought i mentioned at the beginning was that the Espada rankings may have been symbolically given to us by the amount of Fraccion the top three Espada appear with in Chapter 315, The March of Death (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-315/page011.html). Halibel has three, Stark has one. I believed Barragan was flanked by two fraccion. However, as the page indicates, it's actually four, which solidly sunk an otherwise frivalous theory

Ok, i think that's about enough ranting for today. What do you guys think?

kat_at_heart
April 16, 2008, 02:46 AM
ive thought about this in the past but it isnt just ulquiorra left behind wonderweis and yammy have been, although they really are nothing combined to the combined strength of the captains, but aizen might have some other espada level arrankar lying about like before we onley saw 3 pivaron espada and we dont know how many are left

Silhouette
April 16, 2008, 04:15 AM
Very good post like always Vegetoacs

I tend to believe that Aizen is letting HM fall for now since his next destination is the king's realm. The zero squad? Someone who's not too worried about fighting Yama-jii shouldn't be too concerned about the zero squad. I wouldn't be making any assumptions about the outcome of Aizen vs Yamamoto or how strong the zero squad since we know very little about them despite the brief battles they had.

About the Vato Lordes strength, it's been said that a VL can overpower a captain level shinigami. However, there isn't a specific captain level, is there? I mean when comparing captains to each other, Yushiro struggled against Gin ( I am not saying Yashiro is stronger or weaker but obviously he didn't have the upper hand) while Zaraki fought two captains at once. Aizen may look like the strongest but this is not the only thing that determines victory. There are many shinigamis who hasn't joined the fight yet like Urahara, Yuruichi, Isshin and Kukaku. Not to mention the Vizards who are willing -according to Urahara- to fight alongside with the shinigamis against Aizen. To me, things don't look so good for Aizen even if he's stronger than everyone else and even if his top three espadas are a bit stronger than the captains they are facing because numbers > power tand he last moment Aizen spent in SS is a proof of that. Shinigamis and their temporary allies have the advantage in numbers.

Interesting observation about Tousen and Gin staying in the passageway behind Aizen. I can't think of a reason why they would other than to use the long reach of their weapons to sneak on their enemies.

Edit: maybe Tousen and Gin stayed behind to call upon the VLs and depending on whether or not the VLs have been assembled and how many were gathered, the advantage can shift towards Aizen.

IchigoSoul
April 16, 2008, 06:50 AM
To me, it seem purely sucidal to face against these many captains agt once. Kubo have no idea what to do so he did a gaiden, to keep us curious of what is going to happen while he thinks of something to write, thats my theory.

patedecarne
April 16, 2008, 08:45 AM
Aizen, as the bastard he is, probably doesn't care nothing about HM now, because his only objective now is build the King's key; About Aizen letting HM in Ulquiorra's controls means that somehow Aizen trust in Ulquiorra, but still it doesn't prove that Aizen cares about Ulquiorra; if Ulquiorra dies in HM, it won't affect in nothing Aizen's plans, because Ichigo and co. cannot exit from HM anyway;

I never believe when people said that Ulquiorra could be a vastolorde; he's strong, indeed, but to be a vastolorde now means that Barragan, Stark and Halibel also are vastolorde, and to think that way, first espada, being a vastolorde boosted with hougyoku would break the limits of definition of "power", and to Aizen being more powerful than him, the only thing we can do now is say goodbye to the good guys, because no one, even Yammamoto could ever touch Aizen, and everything eould be lost;

And not only that, Aizen is too calm to begin a fight right now, and I can see only two options: Or he's overestimating himself, thinking he's a god right now, or he has another plan, one with Vastolordes themselves; if the second option is true, I cannot see any way to the good guys to win this battle, not even with RG, Vaizards or anything else...

Richo
April 16, 2008, 11:56 AM
Aizen, as the bastard he is, probably doesn't care nothing about HM now, because his only objective now is build the King's key; About Aizen letting HM in Ulquiorra's controls means that somehow Aizen trust in Ulquiorra, but still it doesn't prove that Aizen cares about Ulquiorra; if Ulquiorra dies in HM, it won't affect in nothing Aizen's plans, because Ichigo and co. cannot exit from HM anyway;

I never believe when people said that Ulquiorra could be a vastolorde; he's strong, indeed, but to be a vastolorde now means that Barragan, Stark and Halibel also are vastolorde, and to think that way, first espada, being a vastolorde boosted with hougyoku would break the limits of definition of "power", and to Aizen being more powerful than him, the only thing we can do now is say goodbye to the good guys, because no one, even Yammamoto could ever touch Aizen, and everything eould be lost;

And not only that, Aizen is too calm to begin a fight right now, and I can see only two options: Or he's overestimating himself, thinking he's a god right now, or he has another plan, one with Vastolordes themselves; if the second option is true, I cannot see any way to the good guys to win this battle, not even with RG, Vaizards or anything else...

i think you are underestimating the vaizards a little, most of them were captains or vice captains who had quite some time to master their vaizard powers. At this point aizen is still experimenting with the hougyoku (My theory is that he still doesnt know how much power it requires to temp awaken the hougyoku at full strenght). My guess would actualy be that the hougyoku cant be fully awakend with just the reiatsu aizen is pumping into it (and only is damaging it like he said himself).

back on topic again, my gues would actualy be that the 1st espada is as strong as aizen himself if not strong (unless aizen is a vaizard himself by now wich has to be proven until then). If i am right about what i did read about the arrancar/hollows, they do follow aizen for 2 reasons:
1. aizen knows no fear shows no emotion
2. Aizen is superior in knowledge, strenght and tactical planning
most Arrancar follow aizen because of the 1st one (the more obedient ones and who are calm by nature like ulquirora), these arrancar admire aizen because he doesnt show any sign of emotion unlike hollows wich are born with nothing else then fear and agression (the basic instincts wich shirosaki explains to ichigo). The arrancar who follow aizen because he is so strong are obviously weaker but are often the agressive and fearsome ones (GJ is the perfect example of this).

A vasto lodre his strenght equals a captains or exceeds him but they arent weaker then the avg captain, so how would it be possible for aizen restricted to certain limits being strong then a Espada Vasto Lodre wich exceeds the limits of a hollow (i do presume hollows have about the same limits in strenght as a shinigami). I base all this on the fact that aizen, tousen and gin didnt turn themselfs into vaizards yet (like most shinigami i presume that atleast tousen doesnt want to aquire vaizard powers because of the motivations a hollow uses to kill, gin is likely). I do think aizen wants to aquire vaizard powers but wants to w8 until the hougyoku has awakend fully to actualy fully power up himself to the maximum strenght possible attainable with the hougyoku.

And again i base this all on the fact that it has yet to be shown aizen, gin and tousen havent aquired any vaizard powers yet (i believe it when i see it)


Another thought I had when looking back over this and writing this up was....where the hell are Gin and Tousen. Didn't they go off into a portal as well? Yet they're not with Aizen, and they're not in the Las Noches throne room.....on another mission perhaps to Soul Society....or to fetch the original key from it's hiding place?
no on knows the location of Ou-ken besides yamamato himself (since there are no records of the location off the key itself). If aizen knew the location he would have gone getting it personly along with his espade in full force (it would save him destroying an entire city)

KyleUchiha
April 16, 2008, 12:22 PM
I personally think Aizen just wants Ulquiorra to just keep Ichigo and the other Captains busy,and he is not there with the purpose of defeating all the Captains and defend Hueco Mundo at all costs. Aizen is completely confident that he will defeat the Captains in the fake town and move on, so the HM base seems to have little value to him now.

And lets say Ulquiorra is stronger than any Captain in HM right now.(Not saying that's true). Aizen can't expect him to beat Ichigo and all of the other Captains by himself, unless he took them all down one by one I suppose, but he seems to be waiting for them. Specifically for Ichigo of course, but he's not rushing anything.

And if Ulquiorra is that strong, you would think Aizen would have him at his side. I'm not saying Aizen needs him, but why defend a base that potentially has no further value to Aizen?

patedecarne
April 16, 2008, 12:37 PM
@Richo
Well, could be true that the Vaizards are a great power, the side they join will have a great advantage to th other group, but still Aizen is acting as if he'll make the Ouken already, and judging by his acts, he thinks the captains won't be a obstacle, even if there's 6 captains ready to fight, and more yet if the vaizards decided to join with the good guys;
That's whay I believe Aizen has some aces into his sleeves; he hasn't show any worries, is he so sure of victory?

@KyleUchiha
yes, I was thinking the same thing; HM isn't more useful to Aizen; let's suppose he won the war, made the Key, then killed the King; then, why to return to HM? he could stay in the king's dimension(I believe this is his primary goal) and forget totally about HM; Unless Aizen has any plan to continue to make more espadas, but in the process, he could create some vastolordes with hougyoku, and it's much probably these boosted Vastolordes would try to challenge Aizen..

Anime Head 101
April 16, 2008, 04:49 PM
I think that Ulquiorra might be an vastrolorde arrancar because while re-reading the manga i found this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/

look at the shape of his mask it is similar to Ulquiorra's www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/19/ (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/19/)

Raizen
April 16, 2008, 05:15 PM
Aizen, as the bastard he is, probably doesn't care nothing about HM now, because his only objective now is build the King's key; About Aizen letting HM in Ulquiorra's controls means that somehow Aizen trust in Ulquiorra, but still it doesn't prove that Aizen cares about Ulquiorra; if Ulquiorra dies in HM, it won't affect in nothing Aizen's plans, because Ichigo and co. cannot exit from HM anyway;

I never believe when people said that Ulquiorra could be a vastolorde; he's strong, indeed, but to be a vastolorde now means that Barragan, Stark and Halibel also are vastolorde, and to think that way, first espada, being a vastolorde boosted with hougyoku would break the limits of definition of "power", and to Aizen being more powerful than him, the only thing we can do now is say goodbye to the good guys, because no one, even Yammamoto could ever touch Aizen, and everything eould be lost;

And not only that, Aizen is too calm to begin a fight right now, and I can see only two options: Or he's overestimating himself, thinking he's a god right now, or he has another plan, one with Vastolordes themselves; if the second option is true, I cannot see any way to the good guys to win this battle, not even with RG, Vaizards or anything else...
Exactly what i was thinking, as strong as aizen is , to be able to keep in line vasto lordes is impossible especially him being a shinigami, since holows hate shinigamis. Vasto Lordes are stronger than the average captain, and if they are hokyoku, then they should be a lot stronger because they breached new heights, putting them over aizen.

I believe that aizen has them under his illusion and therefore they are unable to attack him, or aizen has actualy use the orb on himself, but lets not get into that discussion.

Sk3tch
April 17, 2008, 06:28 PM
I think that Ulquiorra might be an vastrolorde arrancar because while re-reading the manga i found this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/

look at the shape of his mask it is similar to Ulquiorra's www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/19/ (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/19/)

Yeah, but also look at: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/19/

Chapter 213, 4th panel - "Once we've assemble the Vastoroudes, and perfected the Espada".

Anime Head 101
April 18, 2008, 03:33 PM
Yeah, but also look at: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/19/

Chapter 213, 4th panel - "Once we've assemble the Vastoroudes, and perfected the Espada".

So that can mean that he doesn't have all of them even though there is not that many

Or you could be right

we will find out soon enough anyways

EvolutionIX
April 21, 2008, 12:51 AM
Hmm...SURPRISE! Yammy is a vastro Lorde!! Why would KT keep him hidden and not even a glimpse. All the espada from 5 - 10 have been killed off...but why not Yammy?

someguy0830
April 21, 2008, 01:48 AM
Maybe because Yammy's too stupid to consider disobeying Aizen. He's probably sitting in his room complaining that he doesn't get to kill the intruders, oblivious to the fact that battles are going on all around him.

segua
April 21, 2008, 03:41 PM
It's said that Vaste Lords look much more humanoid than Gillians. But another distinction is that Vaste Lords are superior to any Captain. Therefore, I would assume that Espada 1 down to 4 might be considered Vaste Lords.

But there is something about Orihime and her desire to destroy the hougyoku that might also play more of a role in here. If Urahara was unable to destroy it, Orihime might just be able to do just that which is probably what Aizen wants. And I wonder if that might force the hougyoku to be fully powered for Aizen to use it on Gin, Tousen and himself to reach the pinnacle of hollow/shinigami perfection?

Razh
April 21, 2008, 03:59 PM
I thought Vasto Lords are superiour to normal Captain.
As far as we know, one of the Espada is a Gillian. And he/it is dead.
We know that one of them was Adjuchas that advanced to Vasto Lord. Grimmjaw is certainly strong. Ichigo and him fought evenly, and as I remeber Ichigo was said to be a lot stronger than a normal Captain. (I actually don't know why this expression was formed anyway, since it seems there aren't any "normal" captains.)
I suppose all of the Espada (except Gillian) should be Vasto Lords, and each of them is stronger than a "normal" captain, and they have human appearances.
But so do some numeros too. And it's still not clear (at least to me), how Grimmjaw's comrades came back looking like humans.

Valen123456
April 21, 2008, 04:24 PM
Power/strength/combat potential is a very loosly worded term in manga like this ... after all it isnt uncommon for complete underdogs to completly overpower others through shear determination so lets be careful here

Im more inclined to believe that in terms of Arrancar/Viazard at least the hybridisation 'does not' nessessarily 'increase power' in the same way adding more water to a bucket will increase its total volume ... its more like channeling power in a different way ... more like focusing the nozel of a hose from wide beam to narrow

For Arrancar its giving them sufficent leverage and composure to seal and control there power into a more stable and compressed form ... therefore when they release they are restoring there true form and channeling all the additional power in a more controlled fashion

For Viazard, donning there masks gives them another channel for their spirit energy allowing them to unleash more of their overall power (which also explains Ichigo's potential ... massive spirit power through both Hollow Mask and Zanpakutou with his bankai compressing it)

Either way Vasto Lorde Arrancar (as im certain the top four espada are ... not sure about the late Nnoitra yet) are still going to be incredibly powerful ... that probably eplains Aizens current calm composure when facing 6 captains and their leutenients

But i agree he is probably just discarding Hueco Mundo in much the same way he discarded Soul Society once its usefulness outgrew itself ... and while only Uliquiorra and Yami remain of the espada to watch Las Noches ... all the other arrancar probably wont be anything to sniff at ... its probably going to be a couple of one-on-one matches with the others holding of the rest ... in fact i wouldnt be suprised if a horde of hollows burst into Las Noches soon ... 4 captain and at least 5 very potent souls would probably look like an all-you-can-eat buffet and i wouldnt put it above Aizen to let several of his enemies be eaten alive by a pack of ravening hollows

Payne
April 21, 2008, 06:11 PM
My guess is Aizen will use the Spiritual Power of Captains and of Arrankar to awake the true power of Hy ( i donĀ“t know how write the name of that thing )

Sorry my bad english

segua
April 22, 2008, 12:38 AM
Hougyoku I think. Even I'm not sure at times.

patedecarne
April 22, 2008, 07:36 AM
What bothers me is exactly how Aizen will make boosted Vasto Lordes: They'll come to Aizen by his own Will? By definition, VL are stronger than Captains, but still, how can we compare a VL to Aizen? If VL are so powerful, then a boosted VL would be even more powerful than Aizen, then how exactly will VL obey to Aizen?

The only thing I could think right now is Kyouka Suigetsu, with the ability to mess up the senses, Aizen somehow found a way to keep VL and superior beings at his control...

fenix2012
April 22, 2008, 10:01 AM
Was it mentioned that perhaps some of the vaizards from "shinji's" crew could be traitors??Cause from the observations I made regarding him he's the good guy (personal opinion ) while others pursue different goals about balance power etc .

Kao
April 22, 2008, 10:47 AM
http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000197/16.jpg

Bleach Chapter 197, page 16. 2nd panel, look familiar? D:
[hr]
Erg. Edit, -has no idea how to edit~-

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/

Fixed your image problem ;)

kkck
July 10, 2008, 02:49 PM
Grand fisher was stronger than a normal hollow but considerably weaker than a menos during the graveyard fight. After having his mask removed he became considerably stronger than a menos grande (at least he implied it). If all hollows that become arrancar experience a similar or proportional increase in power then I dont think any of the current espada are vastolords, they would probably be stronger than aizen himself.

Flight-47
July 11, 2008, 04:20 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/

This says it all... "Stronger than any Captain" end of story lol.


Meaning, it'd take a good 2 or 3 Captains to take one out.
Which would explain why Ulquiorra was able to beat down Ichigo without even drawing his sword, yet Ichigo defeated Byakuya with only a little help from Hollow Ichigo.

IMO, I think the top 4 are Vasto Lorde. If so, The SS Captains on Earth don't stand a chance, and it'd explain why Aizen is so confident.



I'm sure there has to be SOME Captains who are near or a bit stronger than Vasto Lorde. Such as Aizen, Gin (?), Yamamoto, Kyouraku (?), Unohana (?). Ukitake is sick, so I won't include him. However, I'm curious to why the Vasto lorde would follow Aizen if they're stronger than him and out number him?

Could they be using him for something?

kkck
July 11, 2008, 08:59 AM
Wasnt it said that only vastolord could become perfect arrancar with a completely removed mask? That is the main reason I think non of the current espada are vastolords, all of then have pieces of their masks.

Franckie
July 11, 2008, 02:46 PM
Wasnt it said that only vastolord could become perfect arrancar with a completely removed mask? That is the main reason I think non of the current espada are vastolords, all of then have pieces of their masks.

As far as I know, it's never been stated only Vastrodes can fully remove their masks. Any Hollow holds the potential to become a hybrid, though the process wasn't very smooth until Aizen showed up with the Hougyoku.

vongola_x
July 11, 2008, 07:02 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/15/

Aizen apparently has twice the reiatsu of a Captain-class Shinigami if he's able to (temporarily) awaken the power of the Hougyoku and use it to create his Arrancar. They follow Aizen because he fears nothing, but as indicated here, he must have a monstrous level of reiatsu to go along with it, especially if he's able to make Grimmjow drop to one knee just by releasing it.

I'd imagine that one Vasto Lorde-class Arrancar would be stronger than any *single* Captain, but taking on a group of them may prove troublesome.

As for leaving Las Noches with only Ulquiorra there, there's also a number of Hollows, the Exequias and another Espada in Yammy still lurking around as well. It was mentioned earlier that Aizen may not be needing it anymore, and this may be the case if he planned on going through SS and the King's Dimension right after disposing of the Gotei's Captains. It's not like any of the good guys in Hueco Mundo know how to escape anyway.

Darth Executor
July 13, 2008, 09:14 PM
Going by this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/

A Vasto Lorde Hollow > any captain. HOLLOW, not Arrancar. Turn one into an Arrancar and I'd expect it to mop the floor with several captains at once.

I remember reading somewhere that Adjuchas hollows are about captain level, so I'd expect Adjuchas hollows to be above captain level (though obviously not by enough :P)

And for the record, I don't think any of the Espada are Vasto Lordes. I think Kubo's saving them for later.

PS. Ulquiorra does look like that shadow of a vasto lorde but the horns are different and vasto Lordes look humanoid in hollow form. Just because Ulquiorra looks like that in Arrancar form doesn't mean he'll stay that way after release.

kkck
July 13, 2008, 10:05 PM
I also dont think that any of the current espada are vasto lords mostly because of this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/187/14/
The diference in power between a gillian and a normal hollow is huge, yet when grand fisher had his mask removed, his power increased to the point of making by far stronger than a gillian.
If a vastrolorde, who is stronger than any captain, has his mask removed and experiences a proporcional increase in power (proportional to the increase grand fisher experienced) it would probably become stronger than aizen himself. If this happens, then it would be understandable that none of the current espada are vastrolordes since I dont think Aizen is dumb enough to have an army full of individuals who are as powerful or more powerful than himself.

cero_tenshou
July 14, 2008, 10:15 AM
i think that because of aizen's unique shikai ability, he can control vastolorde arrancar even if they are stronger than him. that would be in the same way that a lion tamer controls a lion. in aizen's case, mind over matter is easy stuff. so the may probably be able to overpower aizen if they had the will, but i think aizen's control over them would be psychological,not physical.

Flight-47
July 16, 2008, 02:17 AM
There's no doubt that Vasto Lorde are stronger than Captain. And when Hitsugaya said 'hollow' he meant all hollow in general. Arrancar, and Menos etc. are all a type of hollow. Just like 'Hug horo' or whatever Shuuhei said in one of the flashbacks during Soul Society was a classification of a hollow.

Whether it's because of Aizen's experiments that Arrancar exist, or they existed in the past has still been argued for sometime, so no sense going there.



If Ulquiorra, Stark, Halibel, and Barragan are Vasto Lorde. They could have easily taken out Aizen, Gin and Tousen with the other Espada's help is necessary any time.
So why didn't they?
Grimmjow, Nnoitra and Aaroniero obviously showed they had free will, and weren't under Aizen's hypnosis.

In other words, the reason why the Espada follow Aizen, is because they know if they stay by Aizen's side, they can achieve greatness.
Same reason why the Nazi stood on Hitlers side during WWII. Anyone could have just shot the guy, but they believed and respected him, thinking he'll make them all rise to greatness.

There's a chance the Vasto Lorde Arrancar (if any of them are that level), are simply using Aizen. But knowing Aizen, he probably knows this and is ready to combat it in some way... he's such a smart ass >.< lol Amazing villain though. One of the best in my books.

Basil Hawkins
July 17, 2008, 04:28 PM
Amazing villain though. One of the best in my books.
Even a 12 year old kiddo can be an amazing villain with such a shikai ;).

I expect a VL Arrancar to be a few times more powerful than a captain. And also we have 3 Espadas vs 6 captains so it sounds logical imo.
Just want to add that after Grimmjow's entourage got defeated,Aizen talked with Gin and said that when the VL based arrancars reach maturity they will be unstoppable.So,yes Aizen does have VL arrancars.

THM Nindo
February 13, 2009, 02:05 PM
In my opinion, the fact that Aizen sent Espada 1,2 and 3 to the Fake Karukara town is proof that he don't really care about them. Against the SS Captains, they didn't have a chance.

So, he sacrifice them for a larger goal.

On the other hand, he didn't send Wonderweiss...
and we know that Wonderweiss is the latest creation of the Hougyoku. Giving that the creation are getting better and better everytime, Wonderweiss should be the strongest...

If Aizen didn't sent him in the front line and keep him safe, it's because he will need his power later... And we know that he wants an army of 10 vastolordes...

IMO, Wonderweiss is the first Vastolord.

Raizen
February 13, 2009, 02:18 PM
I actually think that 1-4 are VL. Considering that ulquiorra's release is so human like I say they are definitely VL. That is the only way teh SS captains will have a good fight

Gecko Moria
February 14, 2009, 04:25 AM
Ulquiorra's hollow helmet is similar to the silhouette of a vasto lorde's head. And the fact that the top four Espada arent allowed to release their powers within the dome helps prove the theory that he may be Espada. And if he is the 3 Espada above him must also be surely.

Eddy01741
February 14, 2009, 08:21 PM
Ulqiuorra has been so hinted at being a VL. First of all, when it was defined the different types of arrancar (gillian, adjuchas, and vasto lorde), yammi's outline was used for the adjuchas example, and Ulquiorra's was used for the VL example IIRC. He is also one of the more human looking espada compared to the others. Aizen says that espada of numbers 4 or below can't release under the dome, well, that is another hint at the difference in power between Ulquiorra and the next strongest (the name slips me right now), again hinting that Ulquiorra is a VL. Lastly, his release is very humanlike too, his face is completely void of a mask, he just wears what looks like a bone helmet and sprouts wings.

Forever_Melody
February 15, 2009, 09:05 PM
The release shouldn't be an indicator of the hollow's level as the release itself isn't what the arrancar looked like as a hollow. Just compare GJ's release to his hollow form. They look quite different. Therefore, Ulquiorra's release "looking human" IMO is not solid basis to say he's a VL. If anything, most of the releases we've seen kinda look humanoid since they're attached to a humanoid being(the arrancar).

Mind you, the rest of the stuff said is valid and I agree :tem

Gecko Moria
February 16, 2009, 01:52 AM
The release shouldn't be an indicator of the hollow's level as the release itself isn't what the arrancar looked like as a hollow. Just compare GJ's release to his hollow form. They look quite different. Therefore, Ulquiorra's release "looking human" IMO is not solid basis to say he's a VL. If anything, most of the releases we've seen kinda look humanoid since they're attached to a humanoid being(the arrancar).

Mind you, the rest of the stuff said is valid and I agree :tem

Even before Ulquiorra released has powers I believe the remnants of his hollow mask looked similar to the Vasto Lorde's silhouette we saw. However, what convinces me more that he (and the three Espada above him) are Vasto Lorde is because they are not allowed to release their powers in the dome. We saw how powerful already the releases of the lower Espada are so their powers must be very powerful for there to be a law like that.

Yans86
February 16, 2009, 02:04 AM
I can bet that all the 4 TOP VL/ARRANCAR have "superior human like creature" release,the animal release can be stopped right now,we have seen everything from the zoo(less a bear which can be Yammi):

Starting from Ulquiorra "Black winged Devil"..

Iwould say also:
Barragan is a SHREK auha uahua u auahua au hu Ogre/Troll/ Goblin...SHREK willl be king auhau ahau ha(isn't Enma,the king of hell,kinda like a Ogre???)I can see Barragan with a huge powerful mace,destroying anyone on his way :-P
Even a berseker would suit him cause usually they wear bear's skin...
(Lion and Tiger were already used so they won't fit)


Very cool the idea of Halibel release kinda like Gargoyle style,but a VAMPIRE/SUCCUBUS would be more sexy and reacall also Lilith...

STARK for WHITE WEREWOLF!!!!!lazy,sleepy like a wolf....but a real badass!!!!

Forever_Melody
February 16, 2009, 07:46 AM
Yeah the dome thing is a bit of an indication that levels 4 and above are on another level of power.

I really wish we could see the Espada's prior hollow forms. Sometimes, their releases don't look as cool as their initial form. For example, some of Gj's arrancar friends looked nicer as hollows than their releases did >.>

THM Nindo
February 16, 2009, 01:38 PM
Ulqiuorra has been so hinted at being a VL. First of all, when it was defined the different types of arrancar (gillian, adjuchas, and vasto lorde), yammi's outline was used for the adjuchas example, and Ulquiorra's was used for the VL example IIRC. He is also one of the more human looking espada compared to the others. Aizen says that espada of numbers 4 or below can't release under the dome, well, that is another hint at the difference in power between Ulquiorra and the next strongest (the name slips me right now), again hinting that Ulquiorra is a VL. Lastly, his release is very humanlike too, his face is completely void of a mask, he just wears what looks like a bone helmet and sprouts wings.

Yeah, after having seen those silhouette again, I must agree.
I never noticed that.

But, then I wounder why Aizen seem to not care about losing them, but didn't sent Wonderweiss into battle.

IMO, Wonderweiss is the stronger of them all.
If I'm right, every new Arrancar made from the Hyouboku is stronger than the previous, right? Because hte Hyouboku is getting more and more complete.

So, in the end, Aizen can make himself 10 more arrancar even stronger than those the captains are facing right now.

According to Toshirou, Vasto Lordes are stronger than captain... I can't wait to see them fight against Halibel, Barragan and Stark... that's going to be a hell of a fight!! :D

toussaintac
February 16, 2009, 04:26 PM
So, does anybody think that Aizen has his VL somewhere in Hueco Mundo? I'd have to say that the espada he has now are not the ones he plans on using unless they plan to retreat later on. Aizen has to have more people under him than this. There are captains still stuck in Hueco Mundo so maybe they'll end up running into them. I just don't see this being the decisive battle with so few VL unless there are more waiting around for Aizen's orders. And he probably has a name for them other than espada.
[hr]

Everyone needs to remember that Ichigo is not a regular shinigami or vaizard. How he acquired either power is beyond the ordinary. Everybody who is complaining about his "power-ups" should remember Ulqui said Ichigo's reatsu is greater than his, but it fluctuates greatly AND that was before he had some measure of control over his dark side. Now that he is getting better at his craft we see him being able to hang with stronger opponents without his mask and being able to keep up with even greater power with his mask. Comparing him with everybody else is ludicrous; he activates his mask different than other viazards and all his shinigami traits are as rare as a white rhino to non-existent. He is a baby compared to all other captains, yet he can hang with them and we will soon see him being able to take out the upper tier captains without the use of his mask.

It is safe to assume his dad is a monster, so he received the genes in great measure. We have not scratched the surface of what he is able to do. Will he beat Ulqui, maybe, but he will not be humiliated like the first time around. We should also remember he used his mask before he met up with Ulqui the first time, so he was already exhausted (as noted by Nel). Do i want to see Unohana? Of course, but i am no fanboy, i just want to see what makes her so respected. I am excited, hopefully i am not disappointed.

What I don't understand is how his dad can be a shingami and zero squad captain no less. If his father is dead, how did he have a kid that's in his teens right now? Something's fishy. Was Ichigo a ridiculously strong shinigami or something and lost his memory and forgot how to maximize his power or something?

Shadow
February 16, 2009, 04:42 PM
What I don't understand is how his dad can be a shingami and zero squad captain no less. If his father is dead, how did he have a kid that's in his teens right now? Something's fishy. Was Ichigo a ridiculously strong shinigami or something and lost his memory and forgot how to maximize his power or something?

If i were to guess i'd say it has something to do with Kisuke. I wondered this very fact myself, but it can have something to do with being alive while being dead (check Ichigo). His spirit may be separate from his body but both are alive none-the-less. I don't know how this would be achieved in Isshin's case. We have to wait for that explanation.

We also have no proof that he is the zero squad captain, but judging by the little he has said between himself, grand fisher and Ryuken, we are certain there is going to be a few chapters about him. I bet he will come to the rescue when Aizen makes it into soul society and then the pendulum will swing back to his former days.

Forever_Melody
February 16, 2009, 07:01 PM
Actually, Hougyouku is deteriorating efter each use Aizen makes of it.

Click me for a link (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/249/15/)
Click me for another translation (http://www.ourmanga.com/Bleach/249/bleach-ch249-15/)

So theoretically, the more Aizen uses it, the worse it becomes and potentially the more incomplete the arrancar made by it become.

This may explain Wonderweiss' lack of proper intelligence despite his power.

DeidaraGrimmjow
February 16, 2009, 08:24 PM
Aizen will definitely get to where the King is. I'm dying to see those zero squad people. But after Aizen is defeated in like 400 chapters (I'm dead serious), what will Kubo-sensei do next? He said he wanted to do some more arcs.

ryanzokuken
February 16, 2009, 08:35 PM
So, does anybody think that Aizen has his VL somewhere in Hueco Mundo? I'd have to say that the espada he has now are not the ones he plans on using unless they plan to retreat later on. Aizen has to have more people under him than this. There are captains still stuck in Hueco Mundo so maybe they'll end up running into them. I just don't see this being the decisive battle with so few VL unless there are more waiting around for Aizen's orders. And he probably has a name for them other than espada.
<hr noshade size="1">


What I don't understand is how his dad can be a shingami and zero squad captain no less. If his father is dead, how did he have a kid that's in his teens right now? Something's fishy. Was Ichigo a ridiculously strong shinigami or something and lost his memory and forgot how to maximize his power or something?

personally, i think it would be retarded if the espada were all killed and then Aizen was just like "hey so what i have...DUN DUN DUN....10 MORE powerful hollow warriors! mwhahahahahaaaaa!!!"

the same thing over again, only this time they're stronger? no thank you, Aizen.

and regarding Ishiin and Ichigo....

it seems relatively clear to me that Ishiin has been using one of Urahara's gigais that turns you into a powerless human. hell, he probably requested it.

it'll end up being some deal where he fell in love with Ichigo's mom and blah blah blah ended up fleeing SS just like Urahara and the others and asked for a gigai to make him unfindable and a human so he could carry out a normal life. then, once it had worked, the children were born.

he and Urahara were discussing him having just got his powers back recently, but they weren't fully returned.

Kravmaga
February 16, 2009, 08:39 PM
So, does anybody think that Aizen has his VL somewhere in Hueco Mundo? I'd have to say that the espada he has now are not the ones he plans on using unless they plan to retreat later on. Aizen has to have more people under him than this. There are captains still stuck in Hueco Mundo so maybe they'll end up running into them. I just don't see this being the decisive battle with so few VL unless there are more waiting around for Aizen's orders. And he probably has a name for them other than espada.
<hr noshade size="1">


What I don't understand is how his dad can be a shingami and zero squad captain no less. If his father is dead, how did he have a kid that's in his teens right now? Something's fishy. Was Ichigo a ridiculously strong shinigami or something and lost his memory and forgot how to maximize his power or something?

You raise a really good point here.
What really constitutes living humans as opposed to a shinigami who stayed in a gigai for too long?

What if the latter marries a human/another shinigami in a uhuhara brand gigai and gets busy? Is the result of progeniture human?

Can a shinigami, who supposedly is nothing more than the soul of a dead man, get a second chance at life by simply coming back in a gigai?

All these questions have a flavor that bleach used to emanate before the SS arc began and nothing mattered except power-level fights.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
February 16, 2009, 09:25 PM
hmm, someone mentioned an idea that, the more i thought about it, the more i liked it, was ishida's father being a bad guy. i mean, ss was responsible for his father's death. he also seems the type that would go against his own son (justifiyng it with the fact he had told his son not to get involved w/ ss, and his disregard of that is his son's own fault). as for his motive...perhaps a promise by aizen to establish order so that he and his son will never have to use their powers, and can end the quincy line...i dunno. but this would allow for some significant ishida development (not that i care for the character, but i cant argue against character development).

also, who ever said ishin was a zero squad captain? that was never established in the manga (personally i'd like to beleive that he was the 10th kenpachi, the one shinji called a pig :p)

what im hopin to eventually happen is ulqi, yammy, and wonderweiss,hell even rudobone, escape from las noches very much alive. i mean, why fight to the death, when you can just leave them trapped. this would also put an end to the whole "bad guys must drop like flies" theme(lol, look at that ima rhymer, and i didnt even ... wait a sec ... i think i messed that up:darn)

Doombot
February 16, 2009, 10:22 PM
I actually wanted to talk about Isshin either being Zero squard of the Kenpachi of 100 years ago. In the anime, They stated that the 10th squad captain was extremely lazy and blows off the inducting of Urahara. This could be a good sign with that type of personality that matches Isshin.

Don't get me wrong he could have been Zero Squad too much makes alot of sense as it why Ichigo is so freaking amazing. Like father like son.

Gotta quickly through out Isshin is a Shiba imo. It's why Ichigo has so much in common with that SS Family.

kkck
February 16, 2009, 10:35 PM
Yeah, aizen did mention the momentaru awakenins were deteriorating the hyogoku... WOnder why he actually trusted orihime enough to show her the thing though. I have the impresion that aizen is counting on orihime destroying the hyogoku. Maybe once aizen gets the kings key he will have orihime destroy the hyogoku, and with the rejection of the hyogoku ever existing, destroy the arrancar. Techniqcally once aizen gets the key he wont need the arrancar so it is posible lol

Oni Shinigami
February 16, 2009, 10:57 PM
Tons of crazy stupid ideas floating around the predictions thread, but hey; that's what it's here for, right?

As for my input

Aizen found 4 Vastro Lordes; people are so blind and hind sighted to even accept it yet. Ulquiorra,Halibel,Barragan,and Stark are all VL.

The reasoning -

Aizen treated Espada 5-10 like total fodder. He only summoned the help of his top 3 when his master plan started to be revealed and left his weakest VL #4 to protect ALL OF HUECO MUNDO, in his absence. That's a huge fucking responsibility, the king wouldn't hand the keys to his castle to just anyone, it would have to be someone he had absolute confidence in.

The Top 4 have special laws and restrictions on them.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/07/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/08/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/09/

even more obvious is the only outline of a VL - its helmet perfectly matched Ulquiorra's half broken one.

Aizen is powerful and his top 4 Espada are powerful. It isn't going to be a cake walk victory for the Shinigami if they even win at all.

People who are in VL denial will soon have to eat crow when the top 4 have their back stories revealed.

as for my input on Kurosaki Isshin

Your service as a captain is a strict one. You can never leave being a captain unless you abandon your position or your upgraded to Squad Zero. You can imagine the laws of Squad Zero are much stricter.

Isshin probably grew tired in his service as a grand warrior for the king and left to search for something else in life. What he found was Ichigo's mom; romance insued, and with a custom Gigai from Urahara Kisuke, a new life was formed.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/06/

Urahara basically CONFESSES to being responsible.

Anyone who reads whats given to them can come up with a conclusion.

Galbert-Kun
February 16, 2009, 11:41 PM
Tons of crazy stupid ideas floating around the predictions thread, but hey; that's what it's here for, right?

As for my input

Aizen found 4 Vastro Lordes; people are so blind and hind sighted to even accept it yet. Ulquiorra,Halibel,Barragan,and Stark are all VL.

The reasoning -

Aizen treated Espada 5-10 like total fodder. He only summoned the help of his top 3 when his master plan started to be revealed and left his weakest VL #4 to protect ALL OF HUECO MUNDO, in his absence. That's a huge fucking responsibility, the king wouldn't hand the keys to his castle to just anyone, it would have to be someone he had absolute confidence in.

The Top 4 have special laws and restrictions on them.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/07/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/08/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/09/

even more obvious is the only outline of a VL - its helmet perfectly matched Ulquiorra's half broken one.

Aizen is powerful and his top 4 Espada are powerful. It isn't going to be a cake walk victory for the Shinigami if they even win at all.

People who are in VL denial will soon have to eat crow when the top 4 have their back stories revealed.

as for my input on Kurosaki Isshin

Your service as a captain is a strict one. You can never leave being a captain unless you abandon your position or your upgraded to Squad Zero. You can imagine the laws of Squad Zero are much stricter.

Isshin probably grew tired in his service as a grand warrior for the king and left to search for something else in life. What he found was Ichigo's mom; romance insued, and with a custom Gigai from Urahara Kisuke, a new life was formed.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/06/

Urahara basically CONFESSES to being responsible.

Anyone who reads whats given to them can come up with a conclusion.

Your post makes a lot of sense. There are some things I'd like to comment on...

Aizen treated Espada 5-10 like total fodder.

I agree with this because Aizen didn't move a muscle from wherever he was at to lend a hand when Aaroniero was pleading for help. when Grimmjow fought Ichigo, he wasn't all like, "Grimmjow, you can't use GRC, it gon destroy Las Noches." Why, I bet Nnoitra could used GRC on Zaraki. I doubt that Captain Crazy would block and swipe it to the side with one hand. He didn't go spongebob when Zommari died. (i.e. What a brave man, dying in the line of duty like that, WHY...WHYYY.WHYYY....?)

People who are in VL denial will soon have to eat crow when the top 4 have their back stories revealed.

I disagree with this one a little bit. You can pencil in Ulquiorra having his back story revealed, but I am not so sure about Espada 1-3.

I stand by my crazy stupid theory that Unohana will help Ichigo fight Ulquiorra and also that she will have a back story.

Seriph2
February 17, 2009, 02:12 AM
Tons of crazy stupid ideas floating around the predictions thread, but hey; that's what it's here for, right?

As for my input

Aizen found 4 Vastro Lordes; people are so blind and hind sighted to even accept it yet. Ulquiorra,Halibel,Barragan,and Stark are all VL.

The reasoning -

Aizen treated Espada 5-10 like total fodder. He only summoned the help of his top 3 when his master plan started to be revealed and left his weakest VL #4 to protect ALL OF HUECO MUNDO, in his absence. That's a huge fucking responsibility, the king wouldn't hand the keys to his castle to just anyone, it would have to be someone he had absolute confidence in.

The Top 4 have special laws and restrictions on them.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/07/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/08/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/09/

even more obvious is the only outline of a VL - its helmet perfectly matched Ulquiorra's half broken one.

Aizen is powerful and his top 4 Espada are powerful. It isn't going to be a cake walk victory for the Shinigami if they even win at all.

People who are in VL denial will soon have to eat crow when the top 4 have their back stories revealed.

as for my input on Kurosaki Isshin

Your service as a captain is a strict one. You can never leave being a captain unless you abandon your position or your upgraded to Squad Zero. You can imagine the laws of Squad Zero are much stricter.

Isshin probably grew tired in his service as a grand warrior for the king and left to search for something else in life. What he found was Ichigo's mom; romance insued, and with a custom Gigai from Urahara Kisuke, a new life was formed.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/06/

Urahara basically CONFESSES to being responsible.

Anyone who reads whats given to them can come up with a conclusion.


Your logic and reasoning is a bit flawed you're buying into your own "theory" ( yes at this point EVERYTHING is still a theory ) too much and FORCING certain aspects to be supporting "proof". You say aizen didnt care about espada 5-10 but leaving behind Ulq against the kenpachi, ichigo, ishida, unohana, byakuya, mayuri, and even nel is "caring"? And thats proof that 1-4 is VL?

Lets assume for a second that Aizen's "care" or lack thereof was actual proof for them being VL, so you're saying that aizen "cares" so much about his number 4 ulq that hes sentencing him to CERTAIN death against unbeatable odds? Ulq against a combined force of all those players I listed isnt even a roadbump so that "evidence" gets thrown out the window, only because Aizen's care isnt indicative of anything necessarily.

As for the restrictions put on the top 4 espada once again this doesnt necessarily point towards them being VL, look at the number 10 espada he was an exception to a rule, and why? Simply because he was POWERFUL. Why cant the restriction just be put on these top 4 because THEY are powerful enough to cause major damage at their peak?

And finally what about wonderweiss? What is his significance if Aizen already has 4 VL espada? Why keep around this retarded "underdeveloped" arrancar the way that he has been if he does not have something "new" to show or some sort of actual significance? In my opinion Wonderweiss is the only VL at the moment but due to reasons yet unknown he hasnt fully developed or awakened.

All im saying is anything anyone is currently throwing out is speculation and theory (not that theres anything wrong with that in a discussion thread), no matter how much sense it seems to make to you. I just think the line gets crossed as far as a "discussion" goes when you start calling other people's theories downright stupid.

Oni Shinigami
February 17, 2009, 02:59 AM
Your logic and reasoning is a bit flawed you're buying into your own "theory" ( yes at this point EVERYTHING is still a theory ) too much and FORCING certain aspects to be supporting "proof". You say aizen didnt care about espada 5-10 but leaving behind Ulq against the kenpachi, ichigo, ishida, unohana, byakuya, mayuri, and even nel is "caring"? And thats proof that 1-4 is VL?

Lets assume for a second that Aizen's "care" or lack thereof was actual proof for them being VL, so you're saying that aizen "cares" so much about his number 4 ulq that hes sentencing him to CERTAIN death against unbeatable odds? Ulq against a combined force of all those players I listed isnt even a roadbump so that "evidence" gets thrown out the window, only because Aizen's care isnt indicative of anything necessarily.

As for the restrictions put on the top 4 espada once again this doesnt necessarily point towards them being VL, look at the number 10 espada he was an exception to a rule, and why? Simply because he was POWERFUL. Why cant the restriction just be put on these top 4 because THEY are powerful enough to cause major damage at their peak?

And finally what about wonderweiss? What is his significance if Aizen already has 4 VL espada? Why keep around this retarded "underdeveloped" arrancar the way that he has been if he does not have something "new" to show or some sort of actual significance? In my opinion Wonderweiss is the only VL at the moment but due to reasons yet unknown he hasnt fully developed or awakened.

All im saying is anything anyone is currently throwing out is speculation and theory (not that theres anything wrong with that in a discussion thread), no matter how much sense it seems to make to you. I just think the line gets crossed as far as a "discussion" goes when you start calling other people's theories downright stupid.

Theories involving Isshin being "evil" are stupid. And many others. I didn't say "everyone". I can say your reply was stupid.

But I'll take apart your reply.

Aizen is on his main assault against the Gotei 13. He feels he only needed his top 3 Espada and his home dawgs (Gin/Tousen) + himself to take care of business.

But allowing the enemy to prance around your base isn't exactly a smart idea. So the strongest minion at his disposal whom has been given TONS of special jobs in the past including.

-getting a read on the power of Kurosaki Ichigo and then killing him if he posed a threat to his plans.

-invading soul societys gate and capturing Orihime and bringing her to soul society

-taking care of orhime

-protecting Hueco Mundo against the Invaders

While wonderweiss drools in a corner somewhere chasing small bugs. Wonderweiss seemed like a means of displaying the process of Aizen creating Arrancars; because other than impressing Urahara with an unseen technique; he hasn't done shit.

and Honestly I'm sure Aizen feels there isn't anyone in Hueco Mundo who can take his boy Ulquiorra. He will probably be shocked to learn Ichigo won.

feel free to call me an idiot when i'm proven wrong all you want. but in the mean time 1-4=VL in my opinion and there isn't much to convince me otherwise.

Revan46
February 17, 2009, 03:04 AM
Your logic and reasoning is a bit flawed you're buying into your own "theory" ( yes at this point EVERYTHING is still a theory ) too much and FORCING certain aspects to be supporting "proof". You say aizen didnt care about espada 5-10 but leaving behind Ulq against the kenpachi, ichigo, ishida, unohana, byakuya, mayuri, and even nel is "caring"? And thats proof that 1-4 is VL?

Lets assume for a second that Aizen's "care" or lack thereof was actual proof for them being VL, so you're saying that aizen "cares" so much about his number 4 ulq that hes sentencing him to CERTAIN death against unbeatable odds? Ulq against a combined force of all those players I listed isnt even a roadbump so that "evidence" gets thrown out the window, only because Aizen's care isnt indicative of anything necessarily.

As for the restrictions put on the top 4 espada once again this doesnt necessarily point towards them being VL, look at the number 10 espada he was an exception to a rule, and why? Simply because he was POWERFUL. Why cant the restriction just be put on these top 4 because THEY are powerful enough to cause major damage at their peak?

And finally what about wonderweiss? What is his significance if Aizen already has 4 VL espada? Why keep around this retarded "underdeveloped" arrancar the way that he has been if he does not have something "new" to show or some sort of actual significance? In my opinion Wonderweiss is the only VL at the moment but due to reasons yet unknown he hasnt fully developed or awakened.

All im saying is anything anyone is currently throwing out is speculation and theory (not that theres anything wrong with that in a discussion thread), no matter how much sense it seems to make to you. I just think the line gets crossed as far as a "discussion" goes when you start calling other people's theories downright stupid.

Well you yourself need to get facts straight. First off the "number 10 Espada" is Yammi. I am assuming you are talking about Aaroniero being "powerful" when he is only a Gillian. It's because of his ability to absorb and use other powers that he stayed in the current Espada and holds the position of number 9. As for Yammi, I don't know if he is a Gillian or an Adjuchas, but it could be that he has no special power which is why he is number 10 and not number 9. However really, Grimmjow was an adjuchas but his fraccion (Shawlong and company) were all adjuchas too (minus D-Roy). so really numbers have not much to do with the power.

However, as for the top 4 being Vasto Lorde, it's pretty simple where this comes from. For one thing it is said that Vasto Lorde are the ones most similar to human forms, and although we have yet to see Halibel, Stark or Barragon release, Ulquiorra's release is still extremely human. Yes he has bat wings and the helmet, but aside from that nothing about him is not human. His face, his body, it's all still human, hence the speculation about him being VL, that and the helmet thing. Everyone from 5 down transformed into a beast: Nnoitra: six-armed guy with a moon in his head; Grimmjow: jaguar; Zommari: weird guy with a big skirt and several eyes; Szayel: creature with dripping wings and fingers and tentacle legs, and finally Aaroniero: guy with two floating heads, with a big purple mass with a smiley face on it. But Ulquiorra? Yeah he has bat wings and his helmet changed, other than that he still looks like a human. So if the top 4 aren't Vasto Lorde, then explain why Ulquiorra still looks human, and I'm assuming the other 3 will too.

Oni Shinigami
February 17, 2009, 03:08 AM
As for Yammi, I don't know if he is a Gillian or an Adjuchas

Yammi is Adjuchas. 10,8,7,6,5 are Adjuchas.

#9 bragged about being the only Gillian within the Espada and being graced by Aizen with the #9 for his ability.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/267/07/

Seriph2
February 17, 2009, 03:33 AM
Theories involving Isshin being "evil" are stupid. And many others. I didn't say "everyone". I can say your reply was stupid.

But I'll take apart your reply.

Aizen is on his main assault against the Gotei 13. He feels he only needed his top 3 Espada and his home dawgs (Gin/Tousen) + himself to take care of business.

But allowing the enemy to prance around your base isn't exactly a smart idea. So the strongest minion at his disposal whom has been given TONS of special jobs in the past including.

-getting a read on the power of Kurosaki Ichigo and then killing him if he posed a threat to his plans.

-invading soul societys gate and capturing Orihime and bringing her to soul society

-taking care of orhime

-protecting Hueco Mundo against the Invaders

While wonderweiss drools in a corner somewhere chasing small bugs. Wonderweiss seemed like a means of displaying the process of Aizen creating Arrancars; because other than impressing Urahara with an unseen technique; he hasn't done shit.

and Honestly I'm sure Aizen feels there isn't anyone in Hueco Mundo who can take his boy Ulquiorra. He will probably be shocked to learn Ichigo won.

feel free to call me an idiot when i'm proven wrong all you want. but in the mean time 1-4=VL in my opinion and there isn't much to convince me otherwise.

How did you take anything apart I even mentioned? You stated the obvious facts that the 1-3 espada are at his side in fake KT and that Ulq got left behind.... What does that have to do with the fact I took apart your "cares about" theory? He might be confident in the fact Ulq COULD beat ichigo but that is irrelavent he KNEW other captains were in HM and even YOU couldnt make such a retarded statement or insinuation that you think Ulq could beat kenpachi,unohana,byakuya,mayuri, AND ichigo.

Its completely pointless to just look at it as a ichigo vs ulq standpoint because if you are clinging to the"protecting the home front" objective he would know that even if ulq beats ichigo the other 4 fkin captains could easily TOGETHER have a field day with Ulq.

Second of all he let all them prance around his base to begin with, hes not overly concerned with them being there or else he would have taken care of them with some sense of urgency. Ulq being there has nothing to do with his trust in his abilities to defend or caring about him so much that he gave him this job, aizen knows the captains and crew are ultimately stuck there anyways so either way it doesnt interfere with his objective. So once again that goes out the window.

Oh so now Aizen "caring" isnt an indicator of "power" when it comes to wonderweiss? When part of your supporting facts for why 1-4 are Vl was because Aizen shows concern for them? Why does aizen have one of his right hand men taking care of this worthless "arrancarization example" then? Why not just throw him out like some of those other lackies? Your logic FLAWED. Feel free to this time actually try and take anything I said apart.

Revan46
February 17, 2009, 03:33 AM
Forgot about that, my bad. But I still stick to what I was saying about 1-4 :p

Seriph2
February 17, 2009, 03:40 AM
Well you yourself need to get facts straight. First off the "number 10 Espada" is Yammi. I am assuming you are talking about Aaroniero being "powerful" when he is only a Gillian. It's because of his ability to absorb and use other powers that he stayed in the current Espada and holds the position of number 9. As for Yammi, I don't know if he is a Gillian or an Adjuchas, but it could be that he has no special power which is why he is number 10 and not number 9. However really, Grimmjow was an adjuchas but his fraccion (Shawlong and company) were all adjuchas too (minus D-Roy). so really numbers have not much to do with the power.

However, as for the top 4 being Vasto Lorde, it's pretty simple where this comes from. For one thing it is said that Vasto Lorde are the ones most similar to human forms, and although we have yet to see Halibel, Stark or Barragon release, Ulquiorra's release is still extremely human. Yes he has bat wings and the helmet, but aside from that nothing about him is not human. His face, his body, it's all still human, hence the speculation about him being VL, that and the helmet thing. Everyone from 5 down transformed into a beast: Nnoitra: six-armed guy with a moon in his head; Grimmjow: jaguar; Zommari: weird guy with a big skirt and several eyes; Szayel: creature with dripping wings and fingers and tentacle legs, and finally Aaroniero: guy with two floating heads, with a big purple mass with a smiley face on it. But Ulquiorra? Yeah he has bat wings and his helmet changed, other than that he still looks like a human. So if the top 4 aren't Vasto Lorde, then explain why Ulquiorra still looks human, and I'm assuming the other 3 will too.

While its true that Ulq is THUS FAR the most human looking of the bunch and this was stated as being a feature or trait, he still has wings.... You are choosing to ignore it as a "minor" feature but we DONT know exactly HOW human looking VL are supposed to look or going to be. So although he is the most human looking THUS FAR he still has fking wings. If he transformed and just had some samurai armor on or something like that id say "ok it doesnt get any more human than that hes got to be VL" but even if it is minor it CAN get more human looking; and thats without wings. So in short unless you know exactly how human kubo intends VL's to actually be or he states hes a VL this is STILL an assumption buddy.

As far as #10 espada thats my fault I meant number #9...... now tell me what changes about the actual point that I was making? Who cares if its ONLY because he has the power to absorb he STILL is the exception to the "rule". It doesnt matter how he gets his power its the fact he has enough power to put him in the position he was in, which is POSSIBLY the same for the 1-4 espada their power could be the ONLY reason why they are put under these restrictions or rules.

naruto-niichan
February 17, 2009, 03:55 AM
While its true that Ulq is THUS FAR the most human looking of the bunch and this was stated as being a feature or trait, he still has wings.... You are choosing to ignore it as a "minor" feature but we DONT know exactly HOW human looking VL are supposed to look or going to be. So although he is the most human looking THUS FAR he still has fking wings. If he transformed and just had some samurai armor on or something like that id say "ok it doesnt get any more human than that hes got to be VL" but even if it is minor it CAN get more human looking; and thats without wings. So in short unless you know exactly how human kubo intends VL's to actually be or he states hes a VL this is STILL an assumption buddy.

As far as #10 espada thats my fault I meant number #9...... now tell me what changes about the actual point that I was making? Who cares if its ONLY because he has the power to absorb he STILL is the exception to the "rule". It doesnt matter how he gets his power its the fact he has enough power to put him in the position he was in, which is POSSIBLY the same for the 1-4 espada their power could be the ONLY reason why they are put under these restrictions or rules.

I agree with you, it's not 100% sure that espada 1-4 are VL, but there is a good possibility, don't you think? ;)
not quite sure, but a privaron espada said that the release brings their former hollow-powers back ^^ So a VL must not have a human release, but a human body (looking at Uli it would fit )
anyway, this things are all speculations, there's no point in attacking each other :darn

Oni Shinigami's post brought back a memory: look at this
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/270/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/270/16/

the fact "Orihime is one of us" makes me think if Aizen has another plan for her. Just a theory but why should Kubo bring this Orihime is bad thing in? There must be something :tem

Shadow
February 17, 2009, 02:18 PM
All this talk about how a VL should look is ridiculous. Think back to Ayasegawa's fight with the effeminate arrancar. That release was purely human, terribly ugly, but human none-the-less. So should we assume that that ugly crap was a VL? Wouldn't that assumption be logical based on the arguments presented as to how to determine who is a VL? See my point?

I must agree with moonsterX. I stated as much in an earlier post. If we look at it Ichigo's bankai is functioning as his shikai. Look at his fight with Grimm, this was right after his near death experience. He went bankai without any command words at the start of the fight and, if memory serves me right, he did it against Ulqui after his fight with Dordoni too (this was when Ulqui gave him a viewing hole in his chest). Unless this has no importance at all it will be safe to assume that he has an as yet unknown upgrade to receive as a shinigami.

Nooblett
February 17, 2009, 02:40 PM
All this talk about how a VL should look is ridiculous. Think back to Ayasegawa's fight with the effeminate arrancar. That release was purely human, terribly ugly, but human none-the-less. So should we assume that that ugly crap was a VL? Wouldn't that assumption be logical based on the arguments presented as to how to determine who is a VL? See my point?

I must agree with moonsterX. I stated as much in an earlier post. If we look at it Ichigo's bankai is functioning as his shikai. Look at his fight with Grimm, this was right after his near death experience. He went bankai without any command words at the start of the fight and, if memory serves me right, he did it against Ulqui after his fight with Dordoni too (this was when Ulqui gave him a viewing hole in his chest). Unless this has no importance at all it will be safe to assume that he has an as yet unknown upgrade to receive as a shinigami.

Agreed, I don't think anyone should be assuming that a Vasto-Lorde will just be some ugly monster. It could be ANYTHING, because we haven't seen anything that has yet been confirmed as a Vasto-Lorde. Ulqi's release, despite not looking like a humongous pile of hollow shit spouting tentacles, does not rule out the fact that he could be a Vasto-Lorde - just look at how shaken Ichigo was before AND after Ulq attacked him after releasing.
And Ichigo didn't call out his Bankai without the commanding word during his first fight with Ulqi, but I agree with you on the point you are trying to make. I hope that Ichi soon gets an upgrade which DOESN'T concern his Hollow powers, because I think standard Shinigami powers are being made to look a little sucky lately. It's all just been hollow hollow hollow.

Forever_Melody
February 17, 2009, 07:09 PM
Releases shouldn't be taken as an indicator of Vasto Lorde-ness(for lack of a better word lol :p) ebcause those releases do not match what the arrancar looked like as a hollow. The humanoid thing is a characteristic of the Vasto Lorde hollow, not the arrancar's release. Despite the release being a form of ressurection of hollow powers & appearances, it isn't the accurate thing. Just see Grimmjow's release and compare it to his hollow form. There are major differences right there.

1TrueSensei
February 19, 2009, 02:55 AM
But Hitsugaya specifically said that VL's are beyond the level of any captain-level Shinigami. And though there are definite tiers of strength within the 13 captains, Hitsugaya is gonna have a pretty adequate idea of the overall strength of each.

Now, those captains/shinigami who were promoted to Zero Squad, that might be a whole 'nother animal...

locke002paul
February 19, 2009, 10:23 AM
He didn't say they were stronger than any of the captains. He said stronger than our captains. Plus there are many different translations.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/,
http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-197/[s]c197-16.jpg.php,
or http://manga.animea.net/bleach-chapter-197-page-19.html#i

And I really don't think Hitsugaya has such a good understanding of the other captains power levels. I mean the kid acted cocky around Gin and Aizen without realizing the monsters they are. Also we know that many shinigami hide their strength (eg. Kira, Shuuhei, Ikkaku), or keep their reiatsu limited. It is safe to presume Hitsugaya didn't witness all (or maybe even any) of the captains going all out.
I do not think Yamamoto, Shunsui, Ukitake or Unohana managed to survive who knows how many generations of captains purely by being lucky. They must have some power behind them.

Also, somebody must have seen a Vastlorde and survived ... I mean how do you know of their existence if somebody didn't actually see one, I'm pretty sure they didn't watch a documentary on Hollow Planet TV about them.

Now, on-topic ...

I believe the key for Ichigo to win will be by showing a greatly improved battle instinct, attacking constantly. Maybe this will determine Shirosaki to let Ichigo tap more into his power.

Onomatopoeia
February 19, 2009, 10:30 AM
Byakuya only ever showed the final form of his Bankai to two people, Ichigo and one other unknown. I highly doubt it was Hitsugaya. Hell even Ukitake wonders how long it's been since he last saw Yama's shikai.

From that I can nearly guarantee that Hitsugaya does not have an adequate idea of any of the high tier captains to say whether they would beat a VL or not.

Raizen
February 20, 2009, 11:22 PM
But Hitsugaya specifically said that VL's are beyond the level of any captain-level Shinigami. And though there are definite tiers of strength within the 13 captains, Hitsugaya is gonna have a pretty adequate idea of the overall strength of each.

Now, those captains/shinigami who were promoted to Zero Squad, that might be a whole 'nother animal...
Hitsu's statement can be taken with a grain of salt
1- how is it that a young captain as hitsu even have a good grasp on the power level of captains like yama, shunui and uki
2- Has hitsu ever fought a VL to make that assumption
3- He is young and inexperienced. Most of what he know is from probably stories or books, not actuality
From hitsu statement, i take it to mean an average captain, but what is an average captain?? Hitsu, komomura?? Yes, that is what I believe. Hitsu was comparing their strength to his. SO don't take his comments to heart

AS for VL being humanoid? Wasn't it stated the more they feed, the more powerful they become and thus their form change?? SO them releasing is them releasing their true form. There is no other form

kkck
February 21, 2009, 12:27 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/
So far this page and chapter has caused a serious amount of confusion not only because what it says is very subjective and is said by hitsu(who is apparently somewhat inexperienced) but also because all the translations normally used are diferent from each other which leads to even more confusion. Is there someone who has the official translated volume? Or is there somewhere I can actually download the official translated chapter? IMO seeing the official translation of the chapter instead of chapters scanlated by groups would help a lot in this particular discussion.
[hr]
I dont think having a very humanoid release is enough to say an arrancar is a VL though. Most espada have very humanoid releases in the first place, and the less human appearance of some might be due to the nature of their previous form rather than actually being a gillian, adjucas or VL.
Also consider this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/251/15/
There is no way in hell dodorni is a VL yet his release is one of the most human like ones to date. He barely changed at all.

Forever_Melody
February 21, 2009, 10:30 AM
As I've said, one shouldn't consider arrancar releases to be an indicator of anything. Arrancar releases do not totally reflect what the hollow once looked like, it only imitates that form. See Grimmjow's arrancar release vs his hollow form. One looked pretty humanoid while the other was a complete animal.

Raizen
February 23, 2009, 03:38 PM
As I've said, one shouldn't consider arrancar releases to be an indicator of anything. Arrancar releases do not totally reflect what the hollow once looked like, it only imitates that form. See Grimmjow's arrancar release vs his hollow form. One looked pretty humanoid while the other was a complete animal.
it could be due to the fact that he has evolved. Or due to the hokyoku which made him evolve. Also u got to take into consideration that it was a long time ago

TheChosenOne
February 23, 2009, 05:22 PM
it could be due to the fact that he has evolved. Or due to the hokyoku which made him evolve. Also u got to take into consideration that it was a long time ago

What about Dordoini, he has a very humanoid release, doesn't have to mean he is a Vasto. Almost all of the espada's releases are pretty humanoid, Grimm, Nnoi, Szayel. The only major difference between Szayel and Ulq is the wings, other than that they both look humanoid. :)

Ulq is likely a vasto considering the above 4 release rule, but his humanoid release doesn't necessarily have to be the deciding factor on whether he is a Vasto. Since as Melody pointed out their releases look different from their hollow form. :)

Forever_Melody
February 23, 2009, 05:51 PM
it could be due to the fact that he has evolved. Or due to the hokyoku which made him evolve. Also u got to take into consideration that it was a long time ago

That's not the point though. Many arrancar releases look pretty humanoid as TCO said. The arrancar release and the hollow form are not the same, hence the different appearance. Resureccion is a hollow's powers returning to him/her, it says nothing that the appearance returns to a 100% likeliness of what they looked like before. In some cases, they do look alike(ex: Shawlong & co), but in some cases they don't so we can't generalize a rule concerning this.

Raizen
February 24, 2009, 07:10 PM
Well to me growing 6 arms is not humanoid. having wind kicks with dragon mouth is not human.

Ulquiorra is human in that he does not grow horns or anything. He has a helmet and grow wings, but taht is due to his SP IMO

Forever_Melody
February 24, 2009, 08:38 PM
It's a matter of opinion really. I'm just saying that releases cannot be taken as a definitive measure of anything since the manga specifically states that the hollow looks like a human. The manga doesn't say anything about the arrancar releases. While these are supposed to be a representation of the hollow form, they aren't its total likeliness.

TheChosenOne
February 24, 2009, 08:50 PM
Well to me growing 6 arms is not humanoid. having wind kicks with dragon mouth is not human.

Ulquiorra is human in that he does not grow horns or anything. He has a helmet and grow wings, but taht is due to his SP IMO

Well how you intrepret a humanoid espada release is subjective, but having batwings isn't exactly humanoid either. :)

As Melody reiterated, Arrancar releases aren't an unequivocal standard to determine the level of hollow of the arrancar prior to arrancarization.. The release has similarities and features of their hollow form, but their metamorphosis doesn't have to share an exact match. :)

szhang
February 24, 2009, 10:18 PM
from what I understand vastolorde's power= adjuncha arrancar

evidence: when Nel and Nnoirtora were seeking "out" the vasto lorde: i m guessing the reason aizen sent them to look for them is because they can match the vasto lorde's power, or at least be formidable enough so that they can lure out the vasto lorde.

Forever_Melody
February 25, 2009, 08:20 AM
from what I understand vastolorde's power= adjuncha arrancar

evidence: when Nel and Nnoirtora were seeking "out" the vasto lorde: i m guessing the reason aizen sent them to look for them is because they can match the vasto lorde's power, or at least be formidable enough so that they can lure out the vasto lorde.

Well we know that arrancar-izing a hollow through Hougyouku provides it a significant boost in power though this boost isn't explicitly commented upon.

Your piee of evidence would imply that the level between an Adjuchas arrancar and a Vasto Lorde hollow would be small enough so that the former could be able to stand up to the latter.

Mind you, if your premise is true, then Hitsugaya's statement holds no ground since all the Adjuchas arrancar in the Espada were dispatched by the SS captains.

naruto-niichan
February 25, 2009, 10:46 AM
Well we know that arrancar-izing a hollow through Hougyouku provides it a significant boost in power though this boost isn't explicitly commented upon.

Your piee of evidence would imply that the level between an Adjuchas arrancar and a Vasto Lorde hollow would be small enough so that the former could be able to stand up to the latter.

Mind you, if your premise is true, then Hitsugaya's statement holds no ground since all the Adjuchas arrancar in the Espada were dispatched by the SS captains.

hmm yeah, I think the VL don't attack other Hollows directly, they must have a high intelligence :tem an other point for me is: what are those VL doing the whole time? :blink I mean, they could have gathered without Aizen's help. I'm not sure why they are sitting around and once Aizen comes... woosh "ok we help you because you are a man without fear" :darn

Raizen
February 25, 2009, 03:43 PM
Well how you intrepret a humanoid espada release is subjective, but having batwings isn't exactly humanoid either. :)

As Melody reiterated, Arrancar releases aren't an unequivocal standard to determine the level of hollow of the arrancar prior to arrancarization.. The release has similarities and features of their hollow form, but their metamorphosis doesn't have to share an exact match. :)
I already stated that the bat wings to me was him using his spiritual pressure to create it. I mean teh wings have no feather or anything, just energy

TheChosenOne
February 25, 2009, 03:59 PM
I already stated that the bat wings to me was him using his spiritual pressure to create it. I mean teh wings have no feather or anything, just energy

Does something suggest that he created it ? Doesn't matter what features the wings have, it has a form, and thus isn't humanoid. There's too much to state that releases doesn't have to be a indicator in determining what level of hollow it was, than vice-versa. :)

kkck
February 25, 2009, 04:29 PM
How literal are you guys taking the whole humanoid thing? Humanoid does not mean "exactly" like a human body, it means "similar" to a human body. Having wings doesnt change the fact ulquiorra has a humanoid release, even if the wings take out a bit of that. You could also say ulquiorra has a humanoid winged body...
With the logic being used here you could even argua that monkeys arent humanoid because of a tail lol...
[hr]
Although I still dont think a release is enough to assume a espada is a VL

Forever_Melody
February 26, 2009, 05:58 AM
Well it's flawed to use release as an indicator because I'd argue that Grimmjow also had a "humanoid" release save for a tail and his hind legs. Everything else pretty much looked pretty human. But when we look at his hollow form we'd notice that this isn't the case.

I could also argue that Szayel looked pretty humanoid save for his wings, which would put him on a similar level to Ulquiorra in terms of appearance.

Really nowhere in the manga does it say anything concerning an arrancar's release in relation to a Vasto Lorde.

Raizen
February 26, 2009, 05:49 PM
Well it's flawed to use release as an indicator because I'd argue that Grimmjow also had a "humanoid" release save for a tail and his hind legs. Everything else pretty much looked pretty human. But when we look at his hollow form we'd notice that this isn't the case.

I could also argue that Szayel looked pretty humanoid save for his wings, which would put him on a similar level to Ulquiorra in terms of appearance.

Really nowhere in the manga does it say anything concerning an arrancar's release in relation to a Vasto Lorde.
Well hitsu did state that hollows who are humanoid or human shaped are considered Vls

Aonsaithya
February 26, 2009, 06:03 PM
Well hitsu did state that hollows who are humanoid or human shaped are considered Vls

Not "Hollows who are humanoid or human shaped are considered Vls" but rather "Vls are hollows who are humanoid or human shaped". Not every human-like hollow is a VL, but likely most if not all VLs are human-like.

Also, the relation between an arrancar's release and human-like appearance is unknown, just like TheOneDefyingGravity just said, it's the hollow's original form only that matters. The releases mostly look like humans with hollow parts (be it wings, helmet, arms, tentacles, whatever) anyway.

Which is what makes me wonder...most if not all arrancar have relied exclusively on their likely original hollow powers after releasing, Ulquiorra might be the only one I recall using cero after releasing. If the "shinigamization" is so appealing, why are they not using any newly-gained abilities?

Forever_Melody
February 27, 2009, 08:47 PM
Well hitsu did state that hollows who are humanoid or human shaped are considered Vls

Exactly. He said "hollows" not "arrancar releases".

Unless you want to argue that both look exactly alike(for which I have provided a counter example), then you cannot jump to the conclusion that the arrancar release is any type of indicator.


Which is what makes me wonder...most if not all arrancar have relied exclusively on their likely original hollow powers after releasing, Ulquiorra might be the only one I recall using cero after releasing. If the "shinigamization" is so appealing, why are they not using any newly-gained abilities?

Well IMO the biggest gain for a hollow to going arrancar is mostly the intelligence factor. According to Nell, that was what separated them from mere hollows. They no longer become beings of instinct, but sentient creatures able to think and reason.

kkck
February 27, 2009, 10:58 PM
What bothers me is that not all regular hollows were stupid, while with menos it seems that the stronger they are, the smarter they are(of course not an absolute rule). Grand fisher was an ignorant about power scales, but he was not utterly stupid, and some of the regular hollows at the beggining of the manga appeared to be like animals. I think that the stupid arrancar we saw come from gillians who hadn't acquire consciousness while as of there, gillians become individuals and so do arrancar who come from these gillian.

Forever_Melody
February 27, 2009, 11:56 PM
I don't think regular hollows are stupid >.>

The manga states that Gillian are brutes because they have no sentience. They are but large masses of hollows fused together so they're just brawn basically. The manga DOES say however that some Gillians acquire consciousness (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/284/06/) and are able to evolve to Adjuchas.

In fact, it is these particular "smart" hollows who probably become the dominant personality when they fuse to become Menos and that Menos evolves.

kkck
February 28, 2009, 12:01 PM
I didnt say all hollows, I said a few regular hollows appeared to be stupid and have low inteligence. Take the ones from the fight between ishida and ichigo. Maybe they appeared stupid simply because kubo didnt really bothered developing that many hollows, but on the other hand they started acting stupidly the moment the menos came and werent even bothered about being eaten....

Forever_Melody
March 01, 2009, 07:21 PM
Well hollows are born from human souls right? So like humans, you have smart ones and stupid ones! lol :p

A hollow's intelligence really comes down to the soul's ability to move past the instinctual persona which characterizes hollows. If a soul is able to do that, they gain a higher level of intelligence rather than just being brutes who go "OMG I'm hungry for soullllsssss!" :XD

niblack89
March 10, 2009, 11:31 PM
I believed that Nnoitra was taken out by a VL is so then the level of VL is amazing and to put more power to them is over kill I believe Uliq is a VL it would make since since his regular form is a lot stronger than a bankai and his release is super strong Im guessing since a VL is the final stage of a normal hallow then maybe VL's adjuchas is an arraincar's Shikai and his VL state is the Bankai state. Since VL's are rair I believe their a few of them in Aizen's side he never said he didn't have any VL's he just said that they are rare.

Kanzen Shinkiro
March 11, 2009, 12:50 PM
It was recently brought to my attention the matter of just how strong a Vasto Lorde truly is. After reading various arguments, the manga itself, and some theories, I came across this translation (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/17/) of chapter 197 page 17. Hitsugaya makes it clear then and there that by their estimation, Vasto Lord level Menos are the single most powerful Hollows, few and number, but easily outclass even Shinigami of the Captain class. He goes on to say that if Aizen should gather at least ten Arrancar of Vasto Lorde caliber, but not Vasto Lorde themselves, Soul Society would be doomed. My assumption: Vasto Lorde maybe more powerful than even the highest ranking Espada as being simply of caliber does not equate to being equally as powerful. Who knows just what a Vasto Lorde is capable of? Their being highly intelligent and in control of all that power makes me think that they are at least as powerful as Aizen and if a Vasto Lord were to undergo mask removal in order to become an Arrancar in order to obtain more power, they're easily outclass Aizen. Thus my theory is that all current Espada Arrancar are Adjuchas class, the most powerful of them having been, much like Grimmjow, on the verge of becoming a Vasto Lorde when Aizen turned them. I'm not ruling out the possibility that Espadas one through four were previously Vasto Lorde, but that if at that they were, they were young Vasto Lorde who had not reached full maturity. Like Bankai, I believe Vasto Lorde begin their lives as young and immature powerhouses who can be developed into machines of the apocalypse. My two pennies.

Raizen
March 11, 2009, 02:11 PM
It was recently brought to my attention the matter of just how strong a Vasto Lorde truly is. After reading various arguments, the manga itself, and some theories, I came across this translation (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/17/) of chapter 197 page 17. Hitsugaya makes it clear then and there that by their estimation, Vasto Lord level Menos are the single most powerful Hollows, few and number, but easily outclass even Shinigami of the Captain class. He goes on to say that if Aizen should gather at least ten Arrancar of Vasto Lorde caliber, but not Vasto Lorde themselves, Soul Society would be doomed. My assumption: Vasto Lorde maybe more powerful than even the highest ranking Espada as being simply of caliber does not equate to being equally as powerful. Who knows just what a Vasto Lorde is capable of? Their being highly intelligent and in control of all that power makes me think that they are at least as powerful as Aizen and if a Vasto Lord were to undergo mask removal in order to become an Arrancar in order to obtain more power, they're easily outclass Aizen. Thus my theory is that all current Espada Arrancar are Adjuchas class, the most powerful of them having been, much like Grimmjow, on the verge of becoming a Vasto Lorde when Aizen turned them. I'm not ruling out the possibility that Espadas one through four were previously Vasto Lorde, but that if at that they were, they were young Vasto Lorde who had not reached full maturity. Like Bankai, I believe Vasto Lorde begin their lives as young and immature powerhouses who can be developed into machines of the apocalypse. My two pennies.
We can't take hitsu's words as evidence b/c
1- I doubt he has encountered a VL
2- He is probably comparing his own strength
3- He has no idea about the level of the other captains like uki, yama, shunsui, and unohana
4- What he knows is probably from stories and he used his own assesment, not facts

As for hollows, the most powerfull would be the arrancar VL. We have yet to figure out if the top espadas are indeed VL arrancar, my guess is they are

Forever_Melody
March 11, 2009, 05:32 PM
It was recently brought to my attention the matter of just how strong a Vasto Lorde truly is. After reading various arguments, the manga itself, and some theories, I came across this translation (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/17/) of chapter 197 page 17. Hitsugaya makes it clear then and there that by their estimation, Vasto Lord level Menos are the single most powerful Hollows, few and number, but easily outclass even Shinigami of the Captain class. He goes on to say that if Aizen should gather at least ten Arrancar of Vasto Lorde caliber, but not Vasto Lorde themselves, Soul Society would be doomed. My assumption: Vasto Lorde maybe more powerful than even the highest ranking Espada as being simply of caliber does not equate to being equally as powerful. Who knows just what a Vasto Lorde is capable of? Their being highly intelligent and in control of all that power makes me think that they are at least as powerful as Aizen and if a Vasto Lord were to undergo mask removal in order to become an Arrancar in order to obtain more power, they're easily outclass Aizen. Thus my theory is that all current Espada Arrancar are Adjuchas class, the most powerful of them having been, much like Grimmjow, on the verge of becoming a Vasto Lorde when Aizen turned them. I'm not ruling out the possibility that Espadas one through four were previously Vasto Lorde, but that if at that they were, they were young Vasto Lorde who had not reached full maturity. Like Bankai, I believe Vasto Lorde begin their lives as young and immature powerhouses who can be developed into machines of the apocalypse. My two pennies.
I'm not going to re-elaborate my arguments on why I believe this statement by Hitsugaya to be false, but I'll do a brief overview.

As said by Raizen, one should take the words of a character with a grain of salt. You said so yourself, Vasto Lrdes are very very brittle in numbers so the actual hard data SS must have on them must be very very little if any at all. And when Hitsu said "stronger than a captain", what does he mean? Not all captains are of the same strength nor even have the same specialties. It's a very generalized statement to assume they outclass Shinigami captains in all aspects.

There also comes the idea of how exactly Aizen would be able to accomplish Hitsugaya's statement of amassing VLs if they are over his power to control.

Also, looking back at the manga, Hitsugaya also stated how strong Gillain level arrancars were and how even him, a captain with Bankai, had trouble defeating them. And yet a few chapters later, we have Vice-Captains defeating Fraccion with Shikai alone.

kkck
March 11, 2009, 09:00 PM
The main problem with that is that we dont know exactly was hitsu meant when he said that due to there being many, MANY, different translations about that subject. I saw the anime which said the same thing as the current onemanga translation, but I am still waiting for the official dub of the anime to see exactly what was said.

nordicbattlesigns
March 11, 2009, 09:30 PM
I'm not going to re-elaborate my arguments on why I believe this statement by Hitsugaya to be false, but I'll do a brief overview.

As said by Raizen, one should take the words of a character with a grain of salt. You said so yourself, Vasto Lrdes are very very brittle in numbers so the actual hard data SS must have on them must be very very little if any at all. And when Hitsu said "stronger than a captain", what does he mean? Not all captains are of the same strength nor even have the same specialties. It's a very generalized statement to assume they outclass Shinigami captains in all aspects.

There also comes the idea of how exactly Aizen would be able to accomplish Hitsugaya's statement of amassing VLs if they are over his power to control.


Hitsugaya may not be one hundred percent accurate; the information Soul Society has on the Vastolorde strengths and population is limited. But we can't be too dismissive either - that data came from somewhere: the captains, collectively, have a great deal of knowledge and experience, to say nothing of the SS archives. If we can take something away from Hitsugaya's words, we at least have the general IDEA that the VL are rare, and compare favorably against the captains. (Translations do vary on whether they are greater or just on par.) Plus Captain Serious is not the sort to just utter rubbish.

This does not yet take arrancarization into account.

The best evidence we actually have of a Vastolorde's power thus far is quite recent, with the latest chapters showing Ulquiorra's release. we have Ishida's impressions of the reiatsu involved. Being a quincy, and having fought both captain and espada opponents previously, he should have a fair conception of just how insanely strong that power is.

One possible point of contention in all this - is Ulquiorra even a VL? Some seem to have their doubts, for various reasons. I believe in this case the matter is actually irrelevant: if he is, then THIS is a VL's power; if he isn't, then a VL's power is that much GREATER again.

How then did Aizen get them on side? So many people are quick to assume Aizen's omnipotence and that he leads the espada and arrancar based on power alone. It's a flawed thought at best - conquered people may serve but to serve loyally as we have seen? (An occasional rebellious element aside; we saw he had sufficient strength to set Grimmjow in his place.) Plus if Aizen is so powerful to simply conquer Hueco Mundo out of hand, what does he even NEED Hueco Mundo for? There has to be more to it. Lesser arrancar follow simply through awe and by Aizen's own charisma, he being the fearless one amongst fearful hollows. (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/244/06). They might more willingly follow someone like this, than one who has merely crushed them down.

By virtue of what they are, the Vastolordes, on the other hand, are hardly the type to be awed or fearful or even easily crushed, so how to win their allegience? Incentive. If Aizen came along and offered more power and domination over the shinigami for following him? That's a potent reason right there. He happens to have a hogyouku in his possession to arrancarize or further strengthen them? That's extra. Incentive is another perfectly good reason for the lesser hollows as well, incidentally, but is an especially vital tool when those appear who he can't simply daunt or charm.

Some purely speculative thought now. As reasoning as the Vastolordes are, I imagine there are probably more out there that haven't followed Aizen after all. Some probably saw no profit in following him (even the same level minds will hold differing views) or were simply secure enough in their own strength not to care. And as large as Hueco Mundo would be, can we automatically assume Aizen has had the time/resources to scour it all for further VL stock? Rare as they supposedly are, it may well be that there are more VLs not following Aizen than those who are.

niblack89
March 12, 2009, 10:39 AM
I would assume that an espada's first form would be how strong his original form was but their realised form would be the combined power of soul reaper and hallow Uli's 3rd form I would assume would be like his Bankai the final realised he turns more into a hallow but still with soul reaper powers. but all his espada adjuchas level then how can you not say VL aren't like what Hitsugaya said the 5th espada was almost taken out by I would assume a VL you already have a hallow that is caption class and destroy his limiter you have recipe for disaster.

Forever_Melody
March 12, 2009, 01:52 PM
@nordic: I'm not saying that Hitsu's words are totally wrong, but if we take that other example where he said that arrancars were so strong that they had trouble beating Gillians, we see that later in the manga, Kubo has downplayed regular arrancar to the point where they can be beaten with Shikai quite easily.

Also, I completely agree that Vasto Lordes must be very strong, I'm just doubting any Vasto Lorde is stronger than any captain. That is such a broad statement considering how many factors there are in a fight other than pure brute strength.

Also note that that same onemanga scan/translation says that you can count the amount of VLs in Hueco Mundo on your fingers which means they are at most 10 in HM if we are to believe Hitsugaya. That's not exactly SO bad.

kkck
March 12, 2009, 02:33 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/214/14/
Hitsu said they had trouble beating gillian arrancar without releasing the limit. Well, anyways the thing is we dont know exactly how diferent was the strength between the arrancar hitsugaya and his team first fought and the arrancar the VC fought in the winter war arc. It is possibly that the arrancar in grimmjows fraccion were stronger than barragans fraccion (except for po or w/e his name was) in the winter war. I dont thin that is very far fetched considering grimmjows fraccion were at some point adjuca who apparently reverted to gillian(even reversion should be gradual so even after losing power they could be among the strongest conscious gillian).

On another note, I think another thing that the manga has seriously downplayed is the shikai. Guess that is ichigos fault for always starting fights with it and getting owned. The way shikai was portrayed at the beginning of the manga and soul society arc was that even shikai was really hard to acquire and not many shinigamy actually ever got to use it.
During ichigos first encounter with shirosaki you can also see the power a shikai has more clearly:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/111/05/
Of course that was mostly about zangetsu, but it still helps see the diference between using and not using a shikai.

Kanzen Shinkiro
March 12, 2009, 02:36 PM
From what we've seen, Arrancar aren't exactly that much more powerful than normal Hollows, though. An Arrancar is only stronger than whatever Hollow form it was originally. An Arrancar who was originally a Gillian is stronger than a Gillian but not stronger than an Adjuchas and so forth. But the thing is, even if an Arrancar were to have been initially a Vasto Lorde, it isn't necessarily stronger than all Vasto Lorde just like not all Arrancar who were initially of the Gillian is stronger than all Gillian class Menos. Power levels, even within a single class, can vary and fluctuate immensely in BLEACH. A prime example of this being Aizen's short work of Komamura. They're both of the Captain class and yet the gap between them was so great that Aizen defeated him at a whim. Ultimately, it will all come down to how Tite decides to use Vasto Lorde if they're used at all. But because we have yet to see any actual Vasto Lorde, I'm clinging to what's been said in the manga that they are indeed, although not all, stronger than most (but not all) Captain class Shinigami. It would be silly to have Vasto Lorde be introduced after all this only to have them be weaker than the Arrancar. It would not surprise me in the least if the Vasto Lorde themselves are the next villains in line once the current saga unfolds.

Eddy01741
March 12, 2009, 03:15 PM
Actually, Aaroniero was stronger than yammi, an adjuchas. There isn't a clear line in the sand dividing gillian/adjuchas/vasto lordes or their shinigamized (arrancar) comrades.

Also, hitsugaya fought Shawlong, an Adjuchas, not a Gillian, as confirmed by Grimmjow's mini-gaiden, where he joined their "wolf-pack" of adjuchas. hitsugaya only thought that they were just gillian arrancar, although they were actually adjuchas, this AGAIN suggests that Hitsugaya overestimated the strength of the arrancar, to think that he would lose with his limiter on against a gillian arrancar, while he was actually losing (while his limiter was on) to an adjuchas arrancar.

So if he thought that he couldn't beat an adjuchas while his limiter was on, and he also thought that vasto lordes outclassed any SS captains, perhaps he just overestimated the power of the arrancar.

kkck
March 12, 2009, 03:32 PM
From what we've seen, Arrancar aren't exactly that much more powerful than normal Hollows, though. An Arrancar is only stronger than whatever Hollow form it was originally. An Arrancar who was originally a Gillian is stronger than a Gillian but not stronger than an Adjuchas and so forth. But the thing is, even if an Arrancar were to have been initially a Vasto Lorde, it isn't necessarily stronger than all Vasto Lorde just like not all Arrancar who were initially of the Gillian is stronger than all Gillian class Menos. Power levels, even within a single class, can vary and fluctuate immensely in BLEACH. A prime example of this being Aizen's short work of Komamura. They're both of the Captain class and yet the gap between them was so great that Aizen defeated him at a whim. Ultimately, it will all come down to how Tite decides to use Vasto Lorde if they're used at all. But because we have yet to see any actual Vasto Lorde, I'm clinging to what's been said in the manga that they are indeed, although not all, stronger than most (but not all) Captain class Shinigami. It would be silly to have Vasto Lorde be introduced after all this only to have them be weaker than the Arrancar. It would not surprise me in the least if the Vasto Lorde themselves are the next villains in line once the current saga unfolds.

I think the boost depends on each hollow. For what we have seen the boost which a hollow gets from becoming an arrancar is similar or equal to the one a vizard gets from putting on his mask. Given that, a gillian, which is much weaker than a VC, which has a boost of the level of a hollowification, would indeed become as powerful as a VC (of course not any VC). An adjuca is implied to be a mid level menos, so its power is probably similar to that of a VC (of course it depends on which VC you compare him too), so if it receives a boost like the one I described above, it wouldnt be strange that it becomes as powerful as a captain(the case of most current espada). Then for a VL...

Forever_Melody
March 12, 2009, 04:30 PM
The boost isn't necessarily a power boost as it is an overall boost. Nell notes that the greatest evolution hollows gained when turning into arrancar is consciousness/thought, not a huge boost in power.

The very fact that arrancars re-enter a pseudo "hollow form" seems to show that the hollow form is not that behind the arrancar form in terms of brute power.

I'm not saying VLs aren't strong, but I doubt the validity of everything Hitsu says because:
- if there are truly 10 VLs(i.e. you can count them on your fingers), gathering any info at all on them would prove very very difficult, even for SS as a whole so I'd doubt they have that much. Therefore, anything involving them IMO is quite doubtful and at best very intuitive guessing or based upon an experience with 1-2 VL(and that experience may have been a glimpse for all we know).

- Hitsugaya's statement is so broad. On what basis is he comparing a VL's power and a captain's? Reiatsu? Speed? Pure muscle power? It's too generalized considering the variety of specialties each side can have.

- People speculate that Aizen may have some VLs under his control. If they are indeed more powerful(due to arrancarization) how can Aizen hope to keep them in line if they were that much better than him? And even assuming he has none, how could he plan to bring them over to his side(since he was looking for some) and make them do what he wants if he didn't have at least a shred of comparable power to them?

Raizen
March 12, 2009, 05:14 PM
The boost isn't necessarily a power boost as it is an overall boost. Nell notes that the greatest evolution hollows gained when turning into arrancar is consciousness/thought, not a huge boost in power.

The very fact that arrancars re-enter a pseudo "hollow form" seems to show that the hollow form is not that behind the arrancar form in terms of brute power.

I'm not saying VLs aren't strong, but I doubt the validity of everything Hitsu says because:
- if there are truly 10 VLs(i.e. you can count them on your fingers), gathering any info at all on them would prove very very difficult, even for SS as a whole so I'd doubt they have that much. Therefore, anything involving them IMO is quite doubtful and at best very intuitive guessing or based upon an experience with 1-2 VL(and that experience may have been a glimpse for all we know).

- Hitsugaya's statement is so broad. On what basis is he comparing a VL's power and a captain's? Reiatsu? Speed? Pure muscle power? It's too generalized considering the variety of specialties each side can have.

- People speculate that Aizen may have some VLs under his control. If they are indeed more powerful(due to arrancarization) how can Aizen hope to keep them in line if they were that much better than him? And even assuming he has none, how could he plan to bring them over to his side(since he was looking for some) and make them do what he wants if he didn't have at least a shred of comparable power to them?
@Melody- On the last part. I see the VLs betraying aizen actually. Aizen thinks everything is going his way and then BAMMN he is betrayed and murdered
After all the real enemies are the hollows

RICKisBOSS
March 13, 2009, 01:59 PM
Actually, Aaroniero was stronger than yammi, an adjuchas. There isn't a clear line in the sand dividing gillian/adjuchas/vasto lordes or their shinigamized (arrancar) comrades.

Also, hitsugaya fought Shawlong, an Adjuchas, not a Gillian, as confirmed by Grimmjow's mini-gaiden, where he joined their "wolf-pack" of adjuchas. hitsugaya only thought that they were just gillian arrancar, although they were actually adjuchas, this AGAIN suggests that Hitsugaya overestimated the strength of the arrancar, to think that he would lose with his limiter on against a gillian arrancar, while he was actually losing (while his limiter was on) to an adjuchas arrancar.

So if he thought that he couldn't beat an adjuchas while his limiter was on, and he also thought that vasto lordes outclassed any SS captains, perhaps he just overestimated the power of the arrancar.Actually AA isn't stronger than Yammy. His rank signifies that his ability to absorb other hollows and their abilities is more useful than Yammy's brute strength. Same could be said strength wise about Syazel, who is ranked above Yammy but at his own admission said he wasn't as powerful as the others.

That and the ones who followed Grimmjow were gillians. This was confimed by not only Hitsugaya, but by Aizen and Gin as well. Hitsugaya and the others in their state couldn't have inflicted that kind of damage onto adjuntas-leveled numeros.

Raimaru
April 10, 2009, 03:57 PM
For "now" (talking about the last week's chapter) I'm thinking all Vasto Lorde we have seen up to today are the ones at the very beginning of the series and Ichigo's (newest) hollow form. Since we can't be sure about "Top 3" I don't decline the possibility of them being VL. Still, I think no one of the current Arrancar who isn't VL up to now, can ever become VL.

I have the feeling there's a requirement for being able to become a Vasto Lorde, which is "being human", more or less. This is why I think Ichigo has been able to reach this point. Additionally, Chad might become one as well.

kkck
April 10, 2009, 07:26 PM
I don't think you can classify ichigos inner hollow as a VL though. He does not follow the evolution pattern menos usually follow so it is kinda hard to call him that. In general we don't know about hollow evolution at all to actually classify him in any way....
Also, I still have my doubts about the top 4 espada being forme VL. It is very possible but aizens comment about gathering the VL and completing the espada makes me thing there are no VL in his army. I could see them close to being VL if the menos evolution is gradual rather than pokemon stile though.

Forever_Melody
April 11, 2009, 10:43 AM
It begs to question if a [regular] hollow can achieve a level of power on par with the Menos without having gone through the same evolutionary process(i.e. fusing many hollows to become Menos and then devouring other Menos to become higher level).

I mean, Ichigo's inner hollow, which arguably has NOT done this process, has defeated Ulquiorra without much trouble and Ulquiorra is at least Adjuchas level(since Arronierro is the only Gillian within the Espada).

Yans86
April 13, 2009, 07:43 AM
The only day we r going to see a Vastolorde is going to be in a flashback....
Aizen having Vl's?not really important,the important point is for him having arrancar at least at VL level...

With Ulquiorra Ichigo was unconsciouness,but that was a power is going to use again...but as a Soul,if the hollow take completely over(shinigami or normal soul),u can't revert back....Shinji and co explained it in the training,it was clear in the gaiden too,and it was clear in all the chapters when we had hollow around...

Forever_Melody
April 13, 2009, 09:46 AM
It begs to question what IS "VL level" though. I mean, arrancarization provides a boost of power & intelligence to the hollows it's used on. Is that boost enough for certain Adjuchas to be considered "VL level"? And assuming it is, have we actually seen this level of power yet? I mean, so far, none of the Espada have given major trouble tot he SS captains and a VL is said to be above the level of a captain according to the oh so great and reliable source of whitey chan :oh

Raizen
April 16, 2009, 03:41 PM
I actually do think espadas 1-4 are VL levels. i mean teh arrancars are much more powerful than regular hollows so their strnegth should be much stronger than they really are. Are they VL?? who knows

zerocooldx
April 16, 2009, 09:13 PM
I find it kinda interesting that Ichigo has "been" pretty much all the major entities in Bleach (Human, Shinigami, Hollow, Vasto Lorde). But back to the topic, i believe it was said that if Aizen had around 10 Vasto Lorde that no one would be able to stand in his way. But even with the Hogokyou Aizen can't create Vasto Lorde. Meaning that they are a "natural occurance" seeing as he had the other espada search for other Vasto Lorde. Which also explains Aizens interest in Ichigo, and why he called the hollowification of the first Vizards a failed experiment. Essentially hes been trying to "create" (and ultimately failed) as well as "find" Vasto Lorde from day one. And on a side note i think the "horns" are a Vasto Lorde trait, thats just a personal opinion based off of seeing Ulquiorra, Ichigo and the "shadow figure" that was shown when Hitsugaya talked about the Vasto Lorde. And yeah i believe that the top four Espada were/are all Vasto Lorde.

Raimaru
April 18, 2009, 07:28 AM
Well, up to now I still think Adjuchas and lower don't even have the idea of how becoming a Vasto Lorde. Also, I think it is impossible for a "normal" hollow to become VL at all.
Impossible means the evolution pattern is useless for any hollow who aims to become a Vasto Lorde. In my opinion the existance of an invisible, untraceable "destiny" in Bleach would be pretty uncool, not only because you could explain anything with it.
Therefore I try to find a different reason for Grimmjow and fellows not being able to reach the next level. I suppose hollows need to have a kind of human factor (talking about h.... ) to reach the top. You could say that the most terrific monsters are human beings.

According to my theory Arrancars and Vaizards are "inferior beings" tuned up by using the glitch of breaking the barrier between hollow and shinigami. Originally arrancars were never able to have a human form. That's why arrogant characters like Grimmjow or Nnoitora would follow Aizen in first place. (Yes I know, the reason he is able to keep them in line is his lack of fear, but I hope you get what I try to say.)

Weapon_X
April 18, 2009, 09:57 AM
Vasto lordes are only a class of Menos (the strongest to be exact), whereas the Espada are the 10 highest ranked arrancars in Las Noches (they are under Aizen's command), NOT the 10 strongest in Hueco Mondo. The Espada's ranking does not only depend on their strength, and the evidence for this is that Szayel Apporo says is ranked because of his intellect, not his strength. I don't think the top 3 or 4 are VL. They are the strongest Arrancars, but VL is another level. Maybe, just maybe Stark probably would be the closest to VL level, as in fighting and intelligence level, but still wouldn't be a match even for the lowest VL.

zerocooldx
April 18, 2009, 04:02 PM
I think a lot of people are very confused when it comes to the chain of evolution of Hollows, so hopefully this will help a little bit.

1. Demi-Hollow - Average Hollow you see in Bleach.

2. Gillian/Menos Grande - A giant single entity that eats/consumes other Hollows in order to get to this stage. Which is also the first stage of the Menos evolutionary chain.

3. Adjuchas - A smaller entity in comparison to a Gillian, that must continue to eat/consume other Hollows in order to eveolve or it will de-evolve. This is the second stage of Menos evolutionary chain.

4. Vasto Lorde - The most powerful class of Menos, even more "powerful" than an average Shinigami Captain. Also this is the final stage in the Menos evolutionary chain.

Numbers 2-4 are all considered to be Menos, which is just a class not an entity. Kind of like the difference of "normal" souls in Soul Society from the ones with Shinigami powers. The "normal" souls of course would represent the Demi-Hollows in Hueco Mundo, and the Shinigami souls the Menos class.

Arrancar are the wild card in all of this, it appears that they are "created" throught the mask removal process. We all know that Aizen used the Hogyoku to create the Espada Arrancar. But the Hogyoku's power seemes to have effected a lot of other Hollows in Hueco Mundo as well.

Just the same with Vizards, they are a "created" entity but instead of using Hollows, you use Shinigami. Ultimately Aizen, from day one, has been trying to create Vasto Lorde. He started with Shinigami and has now moved on to Hollows. Mainly in part because Shinigami can't naturaly evolve. In the end Vizards and Arrancar are above Hollows and Shinigami but are inferior to Vasto Lorde, which it seems are naturaly created entities. Which also explains Aizens dire need to constantly "search" for Vasto Lorde class Menos. He is doing this because now he seems to know that Vasto Lorde can't be created from either Hollows or Shinigami.

TravisAxel
April 19, 2009, 08:55 PM
Just to clarify. The anime stated the evolution of hollows in Grimmjows fight. Hollows keep on eating/fighting to become Gillian (Menos). Gillian keep fighting/eating to become adjuchas. Adjuchas is the hollows truest form before they become arrancarized. If they dont continue this viscious cycle they revert back to their weaker more vulnerable forms. As soon as they become arrancar they cant de-volve. An espadas released state is what they were as adjuchas.

Im just guessing that true Vastolordes are much more powerful by default and we will get a chance to see some fights between the Vasto and Royal Guard/Squad 0. I may be overthinking this.

Forever_Melody
April 19, 2009, 09:02 PM
zero has the explanation correct basically. Menos is a subcategory of hollow characterized by multiple hollows merging into one through devouring.

Among the Menos, there exists 3 ranks: the Gillian, the Adjuchas and the Vasto Lorde.

I find it a bit ironic how further evolution in the Menos chain seems to bring hollow closer to human once again(in shape and intellect).

Eddy01741
April 19, 2009, 09:11 PM
http://img56.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107632/16.jpg

This picture suggests that Ulqui is indeed a VL, as well as that Yammi is a adjuchas. So here is what I think, 1-4 are VL, 5-8 are adjuchas, 9 is gillian, and 10/0 is... unknown. I personally think that yammi might have two different states of menos grande depending on whether he is released or not as we have seen. He is weak and stupid when unreleased, and is suggested to be an adjuchas (it's POSSIBLE that he is a VL, but def not gillian), but when he is released, his nnumber denotes that he is more powerful than all the other espada, so possibly when released he is a VL.

Forever_Melody
April 19, 2009, 10:12 PM
I don't get how he can be 2 different things though. Releasing allows Yammi to regain his initial powers as a hollow so if he was a VL to begin with, he should be when he releases. Honestly, it's a bit of a puzzle and I don't think the going from 10 to 0 is a natural thing.

I think it has to do with Yammi's unique ability to suck souls and eat them. Arguably, hollows devour souls so perhaps through multiple soul absorbing, he managed to increase his power levels drastically.

kkck
April 19, 2009, 11:21 PM
Seeing yami's release form and the image given when hitsu described the menos, I think yammi indeed looks like the one in the background, but when seeing the image of the VL I sort of don't see ulquiorra. The horns don't really match and the hair doesn't appear to be the same. Also the body shape seems off....
I hope some espada start saying whether they were adjuca or VL before but I still think there is a good chance that there are no former VL among the espada

Forever_Melody
April 20, 2009, 07:05 AM
Arguably Adjuchas are supposed to be smaller than Gillian9according to Hitsugaya) and I'd say Yammi's released stage looks just as big if not bigger than a Menos Grande O_o

I suppose we'll need to know more about what exactly the "10 to 0" thing means for Yammi. Does that imply he is now the strongest among the Espada when releases? If so, that's kind of both climatic and anticlimatic at the same time lol -_-;

Yans86
April 20, 2009, 07:58 AM
Have u noticed that Only YAMMI(Espada n.0) and Wonderweiss can use BALA...

zerocooldx
April 20, 2009, 01:24 PM
Have u noticed that Only YAMMI(Espada n.0) and Wonderweiss can use BALA...

Ulquiorra used it when he captured Orihime.

And the whole 0 Yammi thing, I think he has the "potential" to gain as much power as he wants by just eating and sleeping. Which makes sense, seeing as he said all i've been doing is eating and sleeping in order to build up my power. So technically he could get extremely powerful, but i'm sure that would take a long, long time. So that would probably be his special ability, seeing as every other Espada seems to have one as well.

stevenash
April 20, 2009, 02:45 PM
What Hitsugaya said is no longer valid. So now Vasto Lorde can take any shapes and sizes...:D

kkck
April 20, 2009, 05:45 PM
What Hitsugaya said is no longer valid. So now Vasto Lorde can take any shapes and sizes...:D

Why is it not valid?

Aikidoka
April 20, 2009, 07:10 PM
What Hitsugaya said is no longer valid. So now Vasto Lorde can take any shapes and sizes...:D
Why is it not valid?
Maybe because Hitsugaya himself admitted SS didn't have much info on Menos, and so any "info" Hitsu had about VLs might be hearsay or something, and could be false.

But I don't support this belief, not after having thought about it. Kubo's the one writing the manga, so anything he says can only be taken as law. If he wanted to keep the option open of having VLs be any shape or size, then he wouldn't have mentioned that criterion in the first place. Authors introduce ranking systems etc to help us readers keep track of strength, and stuff. To go against a classification system you created yourself, would be contradictory because now you just threw off your readers.

So I think Kubo wants us to take Hitsu's statements as fact...otherwise, we can't take anything in the Bleach world as true.

stevenash
April 21, 2009, 06:34 PM
But after the O-9 Espada thingy...what have been said about espada and vasto lorde is harder to accept...I think even wonderweiss is probably not a vasto lorde...but instead a container for hoogyoku...:D

Forever_Melody
April 21, 2009, 07:37 PM
Arguably though, Kubo speaks through the characters, not the narration so those words are to be taken with a grain of salt. For example, Nnoitora calls himself the strongest Espada, but we know this isn't so. Characters do represent the mangaka sometimes, but other times you have to take the context of the character and the words.

As for the VL thing, we're still unsure if Aizen even has any VL in his Espada so Yammi being 0 doesn't Hitsu's words are wrong. Also, Yammi stated his number changed, but he did not mention this made him the strongest in the Espada now. After all, maybe Espada 0 is in another category or something.

Richo
April 22, 2009, 04:50 AM
Arrancar are the wild card in all of this, it appears that they are "created" throught the mask removal process. We all know that Aizen used the Hogyoku to create the Espada Arrancar. But the Hogyoku's power seemes to have effected a lot of other Hollows in Hueco Mundo as well.

Just the same with Vizards, they are a "created" entity but instead of using Hollows, you use Shinigami. Ultimately Aizen, from day one, has been trying to create Vasto Lorde. He started with Shinigami and has now moved on to Hollows. Mainly in part because Shinigami can't naturaly evolve. In the end Vizards and Arrancar are above Hollows and Shinigami but are inferior to Vasto Lorde, which it seems are naturaly created entities. Which also explains Aizens dire need to constantly "search" for Vasto Lorde class Menos. He is doing this because now he seems to know that Vasto Lorde can't be created from either Hollows or Shinigami.

I find it hard to believe that Aizen goal was to create Vasto lorde out of a hollow/shinigami or human for that matter. The way I see it is that Aizen never was searching speceficly for Vasto lorde nor was he in search for creating one, his true search is to achieve infinite power wich requires to rend through the boundries from shinigami to hollow or vica versa. His recent search for Vasto lorde hollow was to increase the strenght of his army to make sure he could totaly crush SS and enter kings realm where he doesnt know anything about the strenght off the royal gaurd/King.
Its also explained by hitsugaya that Vasto Lorde are extremely rare in Hueco Mundo (wich is a Huge place), also its stated that there are only few Vasto lorde to begin with.
Grimjow explained that nearly no adjuchas even knows the way to become a Vasto Lorde, wich also explains why there are so few Vasto Lorde around (as there are quite a few adjuchas around). There is probably a special requirement to becoming a Vasto lorde as in a emotional experience or devouring a special kind of soul.

ganjabuss
April 22, 2009, 08:40 AM
according to hitsugaya description of vl.....vl's body size will be same as human.....
#4-6 espada's body size was humanoid[resurrecion form=real hollow form]....so they r vl[though #5 and 6 is lower lvl vl]....i assume #1-3 will be vl aswell...
releasing inside las noches is forbidden for #1-4......they are the top tier vl...

samouraizoun
April 22, 2009, 12:11 PM
even if not the whole top three are vastolord I strongly believe that Baragan is, after watching ep216. stark may be ranked #1 but who ever said the king has to be stronger than the knight

zerocooldx
April 22, 2009, 12:32 PM
I find it hard to believe that Aizen goal was to create Vasto lorde out of a hollow/shinigami or human for that matter. The way I see it is that Aizen never was searching speceficly for Vasto lorde nor was he in search for creating one, his true search is to achieve infinite power wich requires to rend through the boundries from shinigami to hollow or vica versa. His recent search for Vasto lorde hollow was to increase the strenght of his army to make sure he could totaly crush SS and enter kings realm where he doesnt know anything about the strenght off the royal gaurd/King.
Its also explained by hitsugaya that Vasto Lorde are extremely rare in Hueco Mundo (wich is a Huge place), also its stated that there are only few Vasto lorde to begin with.
Grimjow explained that nearly no adjuchas even knows the way to become a Vasto Lorde, wich also explains why there are so few Vasto Lorde around (as there are quite a few adjuchas around). There is probably a special requirement to becoming a Vasto lorde as in a emotional experience or devouring a special kind of soul.

If Aizen was just looking to create an entity that had no boundaries power wise for Shinigami or Hollow. Then why did he call the Vizards a failed experient? and why does he need Vasto Lorde to take down Soul Society if Arrancar are that being? It's because neither of those two are the entities he intented to create. He called the Vizards a failure as soon as their masks formed, meaning he was looking for something in them for the very begining. And it seems that he has figured out that he can't create Vasto Lorde, and instead has to recruit them.

Which also explains his interest in Ichigo, he doesn't care for Ichigos Vizard power, he saw the potential of Vasto Lorde power within him. Now of course his Arrancar and Vizard "failed experiments" ultimately either led him to search for Vasto Lorde, or he already knew of Vasto Lorde and tried to replicate them with shinigami and later on hollows. The reason hes keeping his Espada Arrancar around is because he needs them to track down Vasto Lorde for him. And seeing as how Aizen does things, i'm willing to bet anything he tried to replicate Vasto Lorde after seeing one.

Raizen
April 22, 2009, 01:18 PM
according to hitsugaya description of vl.....vl's body size will be same as human.....
#4-6 espada's body size was humanoid[resurrecion form=real hollow form]....so they r vl[though #5 and 6 is lower lvl vl]....i assume #1-3 will be vl aswell...
releasing inside las noches is forbidden for #1-4......they are the top tier vl...
VL and arrancarized VL are two completely different things. Doesn't the hyoju humanized or shinigamize a hollow?? So now that I think about it, just b/c a hollow seem human does not mean it is a VL b/c it could very well be an arrancarized adjucas

stevenash
April 22, 2009, 01:59 PM
That is true....just because an arrancar looks humanoid...doesn't mean it's VL...

The concept is all Vasto Lorde are humanoid (probably)
But a humanoid arrancar is not Vasto Lorde...
VL is a subset of humanoid arrancar...

I thought Aizen called Vaizard failed experiment before they become the Vaizard we know now? when they cannot control their Hollow powers....

Forever_Melody
April 22, 2009, 08:41 PM
according to hitsugaya description of vl.....vl's body size will be same as human.....
#4-6 espada's body size was humanoid[resurrecion form=real hollow form]....so they r vl[though #5 and 6 is lower lvl vl]....i assume #1-3 will be vl aswell...
releasing inside las noches is forbidden for #1-4......they are the top tier vl...
Ressureccion and the original hollow form aren't exactly alike(see Gj's ressureccion vs his hollow form). Ressurecion mimics the hollow form and gives the arrancar their original powers, but nowhere is it stated they regain their original appearance. Therefore, concluding anything from the resurrecion IMO is a flawed argument.

I mean, technically, Szayel looked just as humanoid as Ulquiorra(they both had human bodies and wings), but that doesn't mean they're both VLs...

VL are hollows not arrancars. A VL is simply a very very strong Hollow as far as we know from the manga. Nothing more, nothing less. They are supposed to be the equivalent of captain class shinigamis for the hollow world basically just as Adjuchas are the equivalent of shinigami lieutenants.

kkck
April 22, 2009, 09:06 PM
Something I found interesting about ulquiorra always called himself a hollow in spite of the fact that he wasn't a hollow but an hybrid. What is even more different is that the vizards apparently didn't consider themselves shinigami but just vizards(see part where hiyori says she hates shinigami)

Forever_Melody
April 22, 2009, 09:34 PM
Well Ulquiorra apparently is appalled by the idea of being associated with humans in any way(see his reaction when Ichigo said Ulquiorra might be more human) so since shinigamis are kinda like humans, being a hybrid means he's gotten closer to being a human and maybe the idea didn't please him.

Note that at his death, Ulquiorra finally found a noticing interest in humans, despite all this.

RAhul.R
April 23, 2009, 12:22 PM
Hiii i am new here

i dont think the Espada r Vasto Lordes dont forget after all there is still the other group left The ROYAL GURAD.so i think there is 99% chance the Espada r not Vasto Lordes

WaveBossa
April 23, 2009, 12:26 PM
Hiii i am new here

i dont think the Espada r Vasto Lordes check http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/19/ dont forget after all there is still the other group left The ROYAL GURAD.so i think there is 99% chance the Espada r not Vasto Lordes

Welcome to MH.

Truth is, we dont know. You could be 100% right.

The top 3(4) espada could lose and then aizen (from behind the wall of fire) could say, "Crush them, Vastro Lordes"

And then 5 new Arrancar could come out that are all Godlike in comparison with even Stark, Yammi, Halibel, or Baragon.

Its completely possible.

It's also just as possible that everyone from Ulq up is a vastrolorde (we have no evidence against this claim as well)

My point is just that... "we don't know"

EDIT: Actually, he wouldn't call them vastrolordes because that would be hollow name for them. They would still be Arrancar, but since they would be above espada, who know's what they would be called.

Again, this is only if the VL are completely seperate from the espada.

locke002paul
April 23, 2009, 12:28 PM
Well, he does say "complete the espada" ... so probably there are a few vastlordes in the espada (1-4). My guess is that he has other vastlordes hidden ... and people can't say it's lame and all .. because it was foreshadowed a long time ago.

sarutobi_sensei
April 23, 2009, 12:34 PM
yup I also think that the real espada are hided, not because they wan't but because it's aizen's plan.

kuroihikari
April 23, 2009, 12:53 PM
Welcome to MH.

Truth is, we dont know. You could be 100% right.

The top 3(4) espada could lose and then aizen (from behind the wall of fire) could say, "Crush them, Vastro Lordes"

And then 5 new Arrancar could come out that are all Godlike in comparison with even Stark, Yammi, Halibel, or Baragon.

Its completely possible.

It's also just as possible that everyone from Ulq up is a vastrolorde (we have no evidence against this claim as well)

My point is just that... "we don't know"

EDIT: Actually, he wouldn't call them vastrolordes because that would be hollow name for them. They would still be Arrancar, but since they would be above espada, who know's what they would be called.

Again, this is only if the VL are completely seperate from the espada.

I agree. There are so many ways the story can go on at this moment, and yet some people have the gall to call the series "built on a house of predictability".

Of course, a lot of us knewing the ending of the fights. It's shounen after all. Regardless, most of the fights still keep you guessing what's going to happen in between the beginning and the end. Also, what happens in between the fights has been almost entirely unpredictable (Aizen's SS scheme, Aizen having Orihime kidnapped, Aizen's entire SS scheme being just a set-up for a bigger scheme).

WaveBossa
April 23, 2009, 01:04 PM
if we get a redundant, second set of "espada", like, say, another 10, who are VL's, as some people are predicting, i am just gonna snap.

in my opinion, it would be ridiculous and a terrible idea.
really? another 10 hollow warriors under Aizen?
i'd really rather not keep reading the same thing over and over.
it would just be a repeat of everything that happened with these current espada.

Well, you're still reading after the "0 squad" well mentioned. What if the shinigami lose and they come down to help out? Would that be redundant? I'm just asking out of curiosity, not trying to stir anything up, lol.

I think we all need to realize something (this is not directed at you)... In a fight, there is one winner! If you are reading a manga where no matter who wins, you will call it predictable and uncreative, than stop reading and find a better way to spend you're time.

The only thing can i agree on with the crowd that says Kubo is predicatable is that fact that he has not killed off one good guy yet.

This fact vexes me deeply, but it seems like that trend is coming to an end, quickly (r.i.p. toshiro, lol)

Seriph2
April 23, 2009, 01:04 PM
Hiii i am new here

i dont think the Espada r Vasto Lordes check http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/19/ dont forget after all there is still the other group left The ROYAL GURAD.so i think there is 99% chance the Espada r not Vasto Lordes

I agree. While its still a little ambiguous since it could mean there are some already or none currently in the espada ranks I like to think there arent any currently.

As of right now just to keep things simple lets assume the vaizards are good guys and will step in for SS soon then they will definitely make an appearance before the zero squad so If there are already VL espada currently in action then I think it makes it a little anti-climactic for the zero squad to step in at a future date to just fight some more VL.

Wonderweiss is another point. We have the 0-3 espada all layed out so where does he fit in? Hes not being kept around for no reason and in his earth encounter urahara noticed something about him. I think the maturation process is a lot longer for VL arrancarization and wonderweiss is sort of foreshadowing or hinting at that. I think it would be ridiculous to have him as the -1 espada which ties in to my next point......

Since there is a 0 squad full of "elites" and aizen knows this, I can see him having a separate division full of his elites, everyone is quick to assume that these VL have to fit in this power ranking system of the espada but we already know of 2 separate "divisions" the numeros and espada, so why not a third filled with nothing but the bigs? Numeros = VC, Espada = Captain, ??? = 0 squad.

ryanzokuken
April 23, 2009, 01:11 PM
Well, you're still reading after the "0 squad" well mentioned. What if the shinigami lose and they come down to help out? Would that be redundant? I'm just asking out of curiosity, not trying to stir anything up, lol.

I think we all need to realize something (this is not directed at you)... In a fight, there is one winner! If you are reading a manga where no matter who wins, you will call it predictable and uncreative, than stop reading and find a better way to spend you're time.

The only thing can i agree on with the crowd that says Kubo is predicatable is that fact that he has not killed off one good guy yet.

This fact vexes me deeply, but it seems like that trend is coming to an end, quickly (r.i.p. toshiro, lol)

well first of all i don't think squad 0 ever leaves the King's demension or whatever. and i'm positive that Aizen will eventually make it there and face them. if we never get to see the place or the royal guard, there wasn't much point to ever even mentioning them.

but no, i wouldn't find that redundant. it's another squad with the purpose of protecting that realm.

i'm just saying, if Aizen pulled a "oh ho, you managed to defeat my 10 espada. i commend you. however.....here are my OTHER 10 espada! mwhahahaha!"

i think that would be just...dumb. lol.
if he had say...a couple VLs apart from the 10 espada, that would be one thing. but a whole other organization of 10, AGAIN, would be lame. the same exact thing all over again, only this time, they're VL's and stronger.

but like if Wonderwice is a VL, and Aizen maybe has one or two more along with him, that would be cool.

really though, i want him to be out of underlings already so that we can see him, Gin, and Tousen fight.

i want more Gin! lol

Weapon_X
April 23, 2009, 01:21 PM
Nah, we can't underestimate Ukitake. I think he will defeat one Espada and also fight either Tousen or Gin, just have a gut feeling. We haven't seen much of him and just because his looks look innocent and weak don't mean to say that he ain't a powerhouse when he is fighting at full.

After all he has faced hundreds of ceros :| The best are always saved for last, that's why the captains who have already shown their abilities like Kenpachi,Byakuya, Mayuri with the exception of Unohana (but she will face Yammy who is 0), were sent to HM and their fights came first. We have already seen Hitsu and Komamaru's full abilities, bankai etc. That's 5 captains done.

Now it's time for the remaining captains (Shunsui,Ukitake,Soi Fon, Yamamoto) to show their full capabilities.


Welcome to MH.

Truth is, we dont know. You could be 100% right.

The top 3(4) espada could lose and then aizen (from behind the wall of fire) could say, "Crush them, Vastro Lordes"

And then 5 new Arrancar could come out that are all Godlike in comparison with even Stark, Yammi, Halibel, or Baragon.

Its completely possible.

It's also just as possible that everyone from Ulq up is a vastrolorde (we have no evidence against this claim as well)

My point is just that... "we don't know"

EDIT: Actually, he wouldn't call them vastrolordes because that would be hollow name for them. They would still be Arrancar, but since they would be above espada, who know's what they would be called.

Again, this is only if the VL are completely seperate from the espada.

Totally agree. If only Kubo makes 2 chapters full of dialogue about more info about VL etc. Needs to eplain everything about the numbers changing, are Espada 4 and above VL, has Aizen found VL etc. So many things but he just keeps putting fights in every chapter without any info or plot development.

RAhul.R
April 23, 2009, 01:54 PM
There is only 6 bad guys left but good guys r too many 5 captain,3 vice captain,4 captain class & 4 vice captain+hollow power and ichigo father,urahara kisuke, shihouin yoruichi,(captain class).so i think azien have a another powerfull vasto lords group

what u guys think??????????

WaveBossa
April 23, 2009, 01:58 PM
There is only 6 bad guys left but good guys r too many 5 captain,3 vice captain,4 captain class & 4 vice captain+hollow power and ichigo father,urahara kisuke, shihouin yoruichi,(captain class).so i think azien have a another powerfull vasto lords group

what u guys think??????????

Well, 9 badguys (if you count lilnette, Yammi, and WW)

And even more good guys if you count 0 sqaud.

So yeah, I agree. This cant be all aizen has.

Unless Aizen is an idiot (which he is not. I mean, he created hollowification so he's probably samter than kisuke), he should know that these 3 Espada plus Yammi, Lilnette and WW are not enough.

I find it funny to see that people are against Aizen having an ace up his sleeve...

I mean come on, this is Aizen we're talking about

drakend
April 23, 2009, 02:04 PM
It's interesting this debate about the top three being vastroodes or not. I think, at this time, there are just too many characters against Aizen:
1) SS
2) Vaizards
3) The Old Generation Defenders (Isshin, Ryuuken, Urahara and Yoruichi)
4) The New Generation Defenders (Ichigo, Ishida, Chad and Inoue)
5) Royal Guards

It isn't even funny: even if the top three manages to dispose of the SS captains, they will get trashed immediately after by some other of the above parties. Aizen will lose by default if he hasn't another trick under his sleeves, like another set of vastroode arrancars. Even in that case, if 2), 3), 4) and 5) join forces the vastroode arrancars set will get disposed of. The real tide of the battle aren't the vastroodes but the Vaizards: they hate SS (so Royal Guards as well), so I think they may be a third party in this war, hostile to Aizen and to SS at the same time. If I was in Vaizards' pants I would wait for the big battle to end, just to come in and kill the survivors, whoever they would be... :D
But hey... this is a shounen and what I depicted it's a ploot too compicated for the sugoi kiddos.

magicp7
April 23, 2009, 02:09 PM
Well, 9 badguys (if you count lilnette, Yammi, and WW)

And even more good guys if you count 0 sqaud.

So yeah, I agree. This cant be all aizen has.

Unless Aizen is an idiot (which he is not. I mean, he created hollowification so he's probably samter than kisuke), he should know that these 3 Espada plus Yammi, Lilnette and WW are not enough.

I find it funny to see that people are against Aizen having an ace up his sleeve...

I mean come on, this is Aizen we're talking about

But this does not mean that there is another group of Vasto Lorde. In fact, we don't know for sure, how Vasto Lorde emerge. Maybe Adjuchas need more than just eat other hollows. Maybe they need getting killed by a Shinigami.:amuse

Forever_Melody
April 23, 2009, 02:53 PM
VL are not completely separate form the Espada as they are simply a breed of hollow. That's like saying the Adjucghas are separate from the Espada, yet most of the Espada are Adjuchas-born arrancar(Arronierro was the only Gillian).

I honestly really don't see the big hype on VL. They're simply another class of Menos. The strongest class, yes, but yet another class of Menos. They have simply been commented on being very very strong, but they're still hollows and have the same powers as far as we know.

heck, I'd argue most of the Menos classification system isn't that great since Ichigo's inner Hollow which isn't a Menos at all(since he never devoured other hollows) was able to defeat Ulquiorra quite easily and Ulquiorra is at the minimum an Adjuchas-level arrancar(once again since Arronierro was the only Gillian).

WaveBossa
April 23, 2009, 03:08 PM
VL are not completely separate form the Espada as they are simply a breed of hollow. That's like saying the Adjucghas are separate from the Espada, yet most of the Espada are Adjuchas-born arrancar(Arronierro was the only Gillian).

I honestly really don't see the big hype on VL. They're simply another class of Menos. The strongest class, yes, but yet another class of Menos. They have simply been commented on being very very strong, but they're still hollows and have the same powers as far as we know.

heck, I'd argue most of the Menos classification system isn't that great since Ichigo's inner Hollow which isn't a Menos at all(since he never devoured other hollows) was able to defeat Ulquiorra quite easily and Ulquiorra is at the minimum an Adjuchas-level arrancar(once again since Arronierro was the only Gillian).

Ichigo's inner hollow is not a real hollow.

I explained this all in my post on the last page, but i will again.

Ichigo's inner hollow is a manifestation of his hollow powers. It is nothing more than proof that his has crossed into the real of hollow (i.e. been hollowified).

Mask or no mask, it does not change the fact that ichigo is not just a shinigami.

About this whole VL business, I had a really long post about it on the last page.
[hr]
I'll post it here,
-------------------------------------------------------
VL is the highest form of hollow.

But a VL, as a hollow, is still very limited. They must become arrancar (pass into the realm of shinigami) in order to have that limiter released.

The same way that a shinigami has to pass into the realm of the hollow to have their limiter released. (this is evidence as to why I believe Aizen > Yamato, but i digress)

So if he has any VL (which i'm sure he does) he would have undoubtedly turned them into arrancar (shinigamified them)

And this is where it all breaks down.

Due to the fact that "Shinigamification" makes any hollow appear "more human" we lose our only basis to determine which arrancar are VL and which are not.

And since an arrancar resurrecting often delves deeper into their Hollow powers as opposed to their shinigami powers (think opposite of banka), I believe its fair to say that a VL resurrecting is on an entirely different scale than any other arrancar resurrection.

To continue on that fact, An arrancar resurrection should resemble the hollow form more. So if a an arrancar resurrects and still looks very human (Halibel), this might be evidence to support that their hollow forms are very human, i.e. they are VL.


That being said, any one of the top 5 (4-0) + WW could be VL.

And at the same time, they might not be.

But (important), there has to be at least 1 VL in the espada because Aizen said he needed VL to complete the espada.

But nothing aforementioned, rules out the possibility that
A) Halibel and Up could be More powerful than the entire SS
B) Halibel and up could be weaker than Ulq Segunda Etapa
C) Aizen could be hiding his VL group
D) All true VL could have a ressurected state much more powerful than even Ulq Segunda Etapa
E) The only way to tell a VL that has been "shinigamified" could be to see how human their ressurected state looks

These are all possible

David Gill
April 23, 2009, 03:10 PM
I think that the existance of a Vasto lorde is a myth. And if there are some Vasto lordes then i think Aizen, Tousen and Ichimaru are Vasto lordes. They Hollofied themselves to become VL. Now that is awesome.

WaveBossa
April 23, 2009, 03:16 PM
I think that the existance of a Vasto lorde is a myth. And if there are some Vasto lordes then i think Aizen, Tousen and Ichimaru are Vasto lordes. They Hollofied themselves to become VL. Now that is awesome.

That wouldnt make much sense... at all.

A VL is a type of Hollow. Hollowification is gaining Hollow powers to surpass the shinigami limit.

Hollowification is not choosing a VL to be your inner hollow.

That would be like saying Ulq Shinigamified himself and now he is a Gotie 13 captain class shinigami. He may be as poweful as one, but he's still a hollow at heart (lol). And Aizen, Gin and Tousen are still shinigami at heart.

David Gill
April 23, 2009, 03:24 PM
That wouldnt make much sense... at all.

A VL is a type of Hollow. Hollowification is gaining Hollow powers to surpass the shinigami limit.

Hollowification is not choosing a VL to be your inner hollow.

That would be like saying Ulq Shinigamified himself and now he is a Gotie 13 captain class shinigami. He may be as poweful as one, but he's still a hollow at heart (lol). And Aizen, Gin and Tousen are still shinigami at heart.

I don't get it, if aizen is so strong to control even an VL, then doesn't that mean that he is uber strong in a shinigami state? So about shinigami having a limit, i think that's BS.

Forever_Melody
April 23, 2009, 03:27 PM
Ichigo's inner hollow as as hollow as it can get. I mean, hollows are born from human souls, Ichigo was at the time of his hollow-fication, a human soul so I fail to see the difference >.>

You can argue the Vizards' inner hollow might be different because they got attained after shinigami-fication, but Ichigo's hollow manifested itself in the proper "natural" way of things(i.e. his soul chain got devoured). It just happened that Ichigo's shinigami side also manifested itself at the same time. Ichigo is as much hollow as shinigami which begs the question of what he truly is since both came out at the same time.

WaveBossa
April 23, 2009, 03:31 PM
I don't get it, if aizen is so strong to control even an VL, then doesn't that mean that he is uber strong in a shinigami state? So about shinigami having a limit, i think that's BS.

Aizen, as well as other's, have stated that shinigami have a limit.

I'm assuming two things about Aizen
1) He has hollowfied himself
2) He is more powerful than just about any other captain.

Once a shinigami is hollowified, its a permanant deal. They have released those limiters and their shinigami power is enhanced. They dont need the mask 24 seven.

Same for Hollow. Once they have been shinigamified, there's no turning back. They are more powerful 24/7. They dont have to be resurrected to tap into that power.

And i believe that ichigo has been hollowified since the begining
[hr]

Ichigo's inner hollow as as hollow as it can get. I mean, hollows are born from human souls, Ichigo was at the time of his hollow-fication, a human soul so I fail to see the difference >.>

You can argue the Vizards' inner hollow might be different because they got attained after shinigami-fication, but Ichigo's hollow manifested itself in the proper "natural" way of things(i.e. his soul chain got devoured). It just happened that Ichigo's shinigami side also manifested itself at the same time. Ichigo is as much hollow as shinigami which begs the question of what he truly is since both came out at the same time.

Interresting you say that. I think the same way. My peronal theory is that ichigo and aizen are the same. I believe they are both equally shinigami and hollow.

But my only diff is that I believe he has equal access to both powers.

That being said, I dont think he is a VL, and i dont think he's a captain class either. I think that he (ichigo) is the perfect mix between the two, a hybrid form that has no name as of yet.

David Gill
April 23, 2009, 03:44 PM
is it possible that urruru is a VL?

WaveBossa
April 23, 2009, 03:49 PM
is it possible that urruru is a VL?

Yes, very.

She would need a hole somewhere (i hope no one takes that in a perveted way), but since a VL would strongly resemble a human i dont see why not.

VL's are also hermit-like, introverted, and we assume that they are masters of hiding their reiatsu because they are so hard to find in the first place.

To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me.

Forever_Melody
April 23, 2009, 03:54 PM
Well in the case of arrancars, the hole is an iffy business. I still don't know where Szayel's hollow hole was :s

But yes, I suppose it's a possibility.

Also Wave, where was it stated Aizen gained shinigami and hollow powers at the same time? Aizen's debuts are still shrouded in mystery even with the flashback as we have no clue where he came from, and how he got to desire the goals he has now.

dissentniisama
April 23, 2009, 03:55 PM
Unless Aizen is an idiot (which he is not. I mean, he created hollowification so he's probably samter than kisuke)
I disagree that Aizen created the process. Note that when Urahara stepped in he already knew what had happened, he was already aware of - at the very least - the possibility of it. My guess is that the process was possible to undertake even prior to Aizen or Urahara theorizing on it, and they can simply be credited for discovering concrete methods of enacting the process without bias. How Aizen managed it hasn't been explained yet, but obviously Urahara had to have known just to be able to create the Hougyoku.

I mean, if natural arrancar can exist, why not natural vizard? Or at least, failed attempts at becoming a vizard, where the shinigami completely becomes a hollow as a result? As far as VLs are concerned, I think that might be the underlying key to the whole thing - shinigami that attempted to hollowfy themselves, failed, fully became a hollow, and then undertook the regular hollow evolution process. If that particular personality ends up as the dominant one, then maybe it's a possibility. The rarity of shinigami attempting hollowfication and then additionally the chances of becoming the dominant soul of a menos certainly would explain why VLs are so few in number. The reason Aizen would consider it a failed experiment is because maybe he wasn't aware of the real way VLs come to exist, at least not at that point in time.

The point could simply reach far back into the history of Soul Society, perhaps in its more formative years, when such dabbling with hollowfication wasn't as stigmatized. There had to be an underlying reason that Central 46 considered it such an egregious abomination. In other words, there had to have been some established reason why it was forbidden in the first place, and I don't think it's as simple a reason as maintaining an idea of a soul's purity. There was probably, again way way back, a rash of attempts which resulted in fully formed hollows that - as evidenced from the Pendulum arc and Ichigo's transformation(s), which weren't even fully formed hollows - were extremely dangerous if left unattended. And taking the knowledge of the hollow evolution process into account, the ban was enacted to try to make sure such a scenario of continued evolution never would come about, or try to contain the damage in such an instance. Remember that Metastacia escaped from Soul Society and then was eaten by Aaroniero - the capability of such an escape is possible, and if the one to escape was a fully devoured-by-their-inner-hollow shinigami, the one doing the eating would probably be them. SS is currently aware of the Vasto Lorde simply because of those long-ago instances occuring (or continuing underground forbidden research happening like in Aizen's and Urahara's cases), even if the particular information on how it occurs is suppressed. Basically, the Vasto Lorde are not even supposed to exist in the first place - they only do because of the shinigami.




In another train of thought, I see the Royal Guard in less spectacular light. They're still a squad, and just because they protect the king doesn't necessarily mean they all have to be of captain-class or higher. Those among the Royal Guard that are closest to the King, sure, but the other members may just have special traits suited to that kind of work, rather than simply more strength than an average captain. Thus having them step in doesn't automatically mean Aizen or the top Espada getting pummeled if the captains there can't handle them.

WaveBossa
April 23, 2009, 04:09 PM
Also Wave, where was it stated Aizen gained shinigami and hollow powers at the same time? Aizen's debuts are still shrouded in mystery even with the flashback as we have no clue where he came from, and how he got to desire the goals he has now.

It never was. I was making a assumption.

They are named based wholely on when they gain their powers.

Hollow-Became a hollow before a soul burrial

Shinigami-Had a soul burrial before becoming a hollow

Arrancar-Became a hollow first, and then (through unkown means) was able to pass into the realm of shinigami

Vizard-Became a shinigami first and then (through unkown means) was able to pass into the realm of hollow

???- Gained powers at the exact same time and is equally hollow and shinigami

I think Aizen is (i have no proof) and I think he tried to recreate it others (holowification).

Dont forget, Aizen is the father of both hollowification and shinigamification.... something tells me is something more than that.

ONce again, only speculation
[hr]

I disagree that Aizen created the process. Note that when Urahara stepped in he already knew what had happened, he was already aware of - at the very least - the possibility of it. My guess is that the process was possible to undertake even prior to Aizen or Urahara theorizing on it, and they can simply be credited for discovering concrete methods of enacting the process without bias. How Aizen managed it hasn't been explained yet, but obviously Urahara had to have known just to be able to create the Hougyoku.

I mean, if natural arrancar can exist, why not natural vizard? Or at least, failed attempts at becoming a vizard, where the shinigami completely becomes a hollow as a result? As far as VLs are concerned, I think that might be the underlying key to the whole thing - shinigami that attempted to hollowfy themselves, failed, fully became a hollow, and then undertook the regular hollow evolution process. If that particular personality ends up as the dominant one, then maybe it's a possibility. The rarity of shinigami attempting hollowfication and then additionally the chances of becoming the dominant soul of a menos certainly would explain why VLs are so few in number. The reason Aizen would consider it a failed experiment is because maybe he wasn't aware of the real way VLs come to exist, at least not at that point in time.

The point could simply reach far back into the history of Soul Society, perhaps in its more formative years, when such dabbling with hollowfication wasn't as stigmatized. There had to be an underlying reason that Central 46 considered it such an egregious abomination. In other words, there had to have been some established reason why it was forbidden in the first place, and I don't think it's as simple a reason as maintaining an idea of a soul's purity. There was probably, again way way back, a rash of attempts which resulted in fully formed hollows that - as evidenced from the Pendulum arc and Ichigo's transformation(s), which weren't even fully formed hollows - were extremely dangerous if left unattended. And taking the knowledge of the hollow evolution process into account, the ban was enacted to try to make sure such a scenario of continued evolution never would come about, or try to contain the damage in such an instance. Remember that Metastacia escaped from Soul Society and then was eaten by Aaroniero - the capability of such an escape is possible, and if the one to escape was a fully devoured-by-their-inner-hollow shinigami, the one doing the eating would probably be them. SS is currently aware of the Vasto Lorde simply because of those long-ago instances occuring (or continuing underground forbidden research happening like in Aizen's and Urahara's cases), even if the particular information on how it occurs is suppressed. Basically, the Vasto Lorde are not even supposed to exist in the first place - they only do because of the shinigami.




In another train of thought, I see the Royal Guard in less spectacular light. They're still a squad, and just because they protect the king doesn't necessarily mean they all have to be of captain-class or higher. Those among the Royal Guard that are closest to the King, sure, but the other members may just have special traits suited to that kind of work, rather than simply more strength than an average captain. Thus having them step in doesn't automatically mean Aizen or the top Espada getting pummeled if the captains there can't handle them.

Woah woah woah what???

What evidence do we have of hollowification or shinigamiification before Aizen.

And who are these natural arrancar you speak of?

ganjabuss
April 23, 2009, 04:48 PM
i believe aizen has some vl arrancars stashed away for the vaizards....that would explain why wondy is missing....otherwise there is just too many good guys and few bad guys...
and if aizen didn't foresee vaizards intervening....it'll just kill all the hype surrounding him...

anyway i'm wondering if aizen/tousen/gin has become vaizards themselves....that'll become interesting....

dissentniisama
April 23, 2009, 04:50 PM
What evidence do we have of hollowification or shinigamiification before Aizen.
None, yet (unless you go and delve into non-canonical stuff like Shattered Blade). It's speculation. But the various tidbits hint toward Aizen not being the first to have the idea. This is the whole thing about natural arrancar I mentioned.


And who are these natural arrancar you speak of?
By 'natural' I mean those who crossed the barrier without the use of the Hougyoku. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that the methods employed prior to Aizen obtaining it weren't of his own design (or merely that if the method he used was his own, the concept and a way of performing it existed that he didn't have a hand in), and that it would be possible with or without him there. He just quickened the whole thing. I believe that the Privaron Espada made some allusions to the Hougyoku making them irrelevant as well. It doesn't mean they weren't guided to their current state by Aizen, but it means that there's more to the whole method than simply him interfering (some of the references in Isshin's discussion with Urahara in chapter 188 are also suspect of hinting that Aizen isn't the idea's originator).

Even at that, who came up with the idea first? Aizen or Urahara? The fact the Hougyoku existed at the time Aizen conducted his experiments on Shinji and co. means there was already one other contemporary way of performing the barrier-breaking. I don't see it as unreasonable that there were ways to do it even before its creation or before those events took place. After all, the whole purpose of the Hougyoku doesn't seem to be to do the whole process, but rather a way of making it easier by forcibly breaking the barrier and facilitating the other changes. But the barrier is only a part of the equation.

xbenxspire
April 23, 2009, 11:57 PM
i believe aizen has some vl arrancars stashed away for the vaizards....that would explain why wondy is missing....otherwise there is just too many good guys and few bad guys...
and if aizen didn't foresee vaizards intervening....it'll just kill all the hype surrounding him...

anyway i'm wondering if aizen/tousen/gin has become vaizards themselves....that'll become interesting....


That would be quite interesting. Imo, I think that Ichigo had a VL sealed inside of him by his father, and his father was dispatched from SS to watch over Ichigo. Ichigo's full hollow form is so much stronger than Ulquiorra's second release that it would make perfect sense that it is a VL. Aizen did say that Ichigo had potential inside of him...and Ichigo does adapt to his enemy's strength very quickly, so...

zerocooldx
April 24, 2009, 12:39 PM
Well i think it's safe to say now that Halibel isen't a Vasto Lorde, that is unless she has a second release like Ulquiorra, but i highly doubt that. Meaning that leaves Barragan and Stark, just by looking at how Soi Fong and Omaeda coulden't even move Barragan, w/o him even drawing his weapon makes me think a little. But then again Aizen may only have one Vasto Lorde under his control, that being Stark. I think this just shown how powerful and rare Vasto Lorde really are.

WaveBossa
April 24, 2009, 03:12 PM
Well i think it's safe to say now that Halibel isen't a Vasto Lorde, that is unless she has a second release like Ulquiorra, but i highly doubt that. Meaning that leaves Barragan and Stark, just by looking at how Soi Fong and Omaeda coulden't even move Barragan, w/o him even drawing his weapon makes me think a little. But then again Aizen may only have one Vasto Lorde under his control, that being Stark. I think this just shown how powerful and rare Vasto Lorde really are.

I dont agree with this. I think she is a VL.

I already stated this but here i go again...

What do we know about VLs?
1) They are the most powerful hollows
2) They look like humans

But since shinigamification makes all arrancar look human, we can't tell who is a VL or not right?

Not entirely.

What do we know about Resurrection?
1) Only arrancar can do it
2) It increases their hollow strength
3) They resemble their hollow form more after releasing (important!)

So if an arrancar releases, and still greatly resembles a human, that means that their hollow form must have also greatly resembled a human.

Therefore, i dont think its a coincidence that Halibel's resurrected form looks more human than her regular form.
1) No mask at all (first)
2) No weird tale or anything like that either

And I also don't think its a coincidence that hitsugaya notices this too.
http://img.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000166252/17.jpg

I could delve into it more but anything further will be just speculation.

I've presented facts, doubt them if you want.

Saint Markus
April 24, 2009, 07:02 PM
well if halibel originall looked like that in her hollow form, she must be either an adjucha who was near her next evolution or a VL. i do think barragan and stark are indeed VL's, maybe why barragan doesn't like the idea of following behind stark in ranks.

i'm not making assumptions about aizen, i'll just go with the fact that he's smart and powerful and really does his research before carrying out a plan. he does have "double" the power of a captain like yama, so it's understandable why he's leading the espada and hollows. i'm just surprised that aizen hasn't broken out of that fire prison yet.

and here's the thing with ichigo, he was born with shinigami power, which caused him to have overwhelming spirit power. everything else added to that gets a super boost of sorts. rukia's power made ichigo into a decent shinigami, i imagine if a captain would've done this in the beginning. i think if ichigo were to turn into a hollow now, it would be VL without a doubt. don't know if the thing he turned into to defeat ulquiorra was a form of VL or not.

zerocooldx
April 24, 2009, 08:50 PM
He had to have transformed into a Vasto Lorde when he faught Ulquiorra. I mean thats the natural evolution progression that Ichigo's been displaying.

Yans86
April 25, 2009, 10:31 AM
That would be quite interesting. Imo, I think that Ichigo had a VL sealed inside of him by his father, and his father was dispatched from SS to watch over Ichigo. Ichigo's full hollow form is so much stronger than Ulquiorra's second release that it would make perfect sense that it is a VL. Aizen did say that Ichigo had potential inside of him...and Ichigo does adapt to his enemy's strength very quickly, so...

Oh yeah,so ichigo now became Naruto :-D

The only interest Aizen has in Ichigo,the only reason he tough he could come to his side,is that he is the only vizard in action we have seen so far in a serious manner!
As the way Aizen knew about Rukia's gigai,he could also knew about Ichigo vizardification!How did he spy on them and Urahara???it's a big mistery......

Just to remember,Grand Fisher became a natural arrancar removing his mask....there can be arrancar without hougyouku...

PS
When Stark is going to release,he will become number 10 of a new set of espada's....all Vastolorde/arrancar,where a grown cool Wonderweice will be number 1 :-D
Stark won't release until the others are defetead,just to show 10 and then let Wonderweice and the others get in :-D

zerocooldx
April 25, 2009, 10:38 AM
All of the Espada that are 3-6 have some type of an animal release, Grimmjow, Noitora, Ulquiorra, and Halibel. Just like the Adjucas class hollows, who have been portraid to take on "animalistic" forms. The other Espada 7-10 being Yami, Aaroniero, Szayel, and Zomari have not had any animal or specific type of releases. Aaroniro himself was a Gillian class hollow who just absorbed his way to a lot of power, and a high rank. Yami also seems to be able to gain an infinate amount of power through soul absorption and rest. Essentially the 7-10 Espada seem to be below the Adjucas class hollows in evolutionary terms, but are still stronger power wise than an average Adjucas.

The reason i say this is because look at Grimmjow's, Noitora's and Halibel's fraccion, they all had animal type of releases. Grimmjow's Fraccion even said they were Adjucas. While the lower Espada's Fraccion obviously are very weak specifically Szayel Aporro Granz's Fraccion. Szayel himself said that he is not an Espada because of his power, but more because of his intellect, so who knows what his real "power wise" rank was. Baragan's Fraccion are also Adjucas, so this makes me think that he himself MAY be an Adjucas as well (if he is i think hes a "Rhino"). Because all of the other Espada that have Fraccion, have hollows that are the same class as them. But that may mean nothing because i don't think you can get a higher level Fraccion than Adjucas, so he still may be a Vasto Lorde.

The reason i dont bring up Stark's Fraccion or friend Lilinette, is because obviously she looks to be very, very weak. As we saw when Ukitake blocked her Cero with his bare hand, and said that her Cero was weaker then a Menos Grande's Cero. And by the fact that she obviously isen't "fully grown" or developed yet. Also all of the other Espada have had their Fraccion engage in battles, while Stark told Lilinette not to fight, and to stay back. So the two of them definately seem to have a unique relationship as opposed to the other Espada and their Fraccion. And i'm 100% certain that Stark is a Vasto Lorde, there is just no doubt about that, in my mind anyways.

(10 Espada - 4 Below an Adjucas - 4 Are Adjucas - 2 Vasto Lorde. I think i'm on to something here.)

kkck
April 25, 2009, 01:33 PM
All of the Espada that are 3-6 have some type of an animal release, Grimmjow, Noitora, Ulquiorra, and Halibel. Just like the Adjucas class hollows, who have been portraid to take on "animalistic" forms. The other Espada 7-10 being Yami, Aaroniero, Szayel, and Zomari have not had any animal or specific type of releases. Aaroniro himself was a Gillian class hollow who just absorbed his way to a lot of power, and a high rank. Yami also seems to be able to gain an infinate amount of power through soul absorption and rest. Essentially the 7-10 Espada seem to be below the Adjucas class hollows in evolutionary terms, but are still stronger power wise than an average Adjucas.

The reason i say this is because look at Grimmjow's, Noitora's and Halibel's fraccion, they all had animal type of releases. Grimmjow's Fraccion even said they were Adjucas. While the lower Espada's Fraccion obviously are very weak specifically Szayel Aporro Granz's Fraccion. Szayel himself said that he is not an Espada because of his power, but more because of his intellect, so who knows what his real "power wise" rank was. Baragan's Fraccion are also Adjucas, so this makes me think that he himself MAY be an Adjucas as well (if he is i think hes a "Ram"). Because all of the other Espada that have Fraccion, have hollows that are the same class as them. But that may mean nothing because i don't think you can get a higher level Fraccion than Adjucas, so he still may be a Vasto Lorde.

The reason i dont bring up Stark's Fraccion or friend Lilinette, is because obviously she looks to be very, very weak. As we saw when Ukitake blocked her Cero with his bare hand, and said that her Cero was weaker then a Menos Grande's Cero. And by the fact that she obviously isen't "fully grown" or developed yet. Also all of the other Espada have had their Fraccion engage in battles, while Stark told Lilinette not to fight, and to stay back. So the two of them definately seem to have a unique relationship as opposed to the other Espada and their Fraccion. And i'm 100% certain that Stark is a Vasto Lorde, there is just no doubt about that, in my mind anyways.

(10 Espada - 4 Below an Adjucas - 4 Are Adjucas - 2 Vasto Lorde. I think i'm on to something here.)

Renji did mention yammi was weaker than the other espada before he released though. I guess yammi is indeed the weakest espada in his unreleased form.

zerocooldx
April 25, 2009, 02:10 PM
I'm pretty positive that the 7-10 Espada all gain a "special ability" when they release. Zomari controls almost everything, Aaroniero "eats" individuals and gains power from them. Szayel Aporro Granz seems to be able to regenerate as well as replicate almost anything. And Yami seems to posess the ability to consume souls and limitlessly increase his power. Oh and on a side not i meant to write down "Rhino" instead of "Ram" for Barragans release, if indeed he is an Adjucas.

~Joshua~
April 25, 2009, 11:34 PM
All this talk of Espada being VastoLorde....I thought that Espada were hollows with their masks taken off and VastoLorde were just extremely powerful hollows with human forms. Can someone please show me any proof otherwise?

stevenash
April 25, 2009, 11:47 PM
Arrancars are menos(maybe hollow) with mask taken off...Menos are hollow that feeds on hollow...Espada is just positions...So...an arrancar can be either a gillian, adjuchas or vasto lorde (all three are subset of menos)

So vl,adjuchas,gillian are subset of menos who are subset of hollow...if at any stage they take off their mask...they'll be arrancar...

So...people are assuming that the top 3 espada at least are Vasto Lorde who has taken off their mask...:D

With that...it is possible to have a non-arrancar Vasto Lorde...:D

kkck
April 26, 2009, 12:12 AM
All this talk of Espada being VastoLorde....I thought that Espada were hollows with their masks taken off and VastoLorde were just extremely powerful hollows with human forms. Can someone please show me any proof otherwise?

It is all speculation at this point, we really have no way to tell exactly what exactly each espada or arrancar formerly was just by the mask.

Facts are:
Arroniero was a gillian and all the other espada were at the very least adjuca.

Grimmjows fraccion were adjuca and some point they apparently reverted (aizens stament about them being gillian).

Menos decrease their size as they evolve and also become stronger. We also know that when an arrancar releases, he takes on a form roughly similar to their original hollow form. Logically speaking, if a VL has humanoid shape and size, he would actually take on a humanoid form when he releases. The problem with this is that most arrancar take on roughly human forms when they release(with obvious exceptions) which makes it harder to determine what kind of menos they were.

There is something that does bother about this though. Look at the shape the mask of a gillian has:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/284/06/
As we know all gillian look exactly the same. But what about gillians who retain their personality? Do they all look exactly the same or are their mask different from one another? If they all look the same and gain different forms after evolving into an adjuca, then it doesn't make sense that the mask of several former gillian arrancar are different. Guess kubo still owes us a few explantions....

~Joshua~
April 26, 2009, 12:40 AM
It is all speculation at this point, we really have no way to tell exactly what exactly each espada or arrancar formerly was just by the mask.

Facts are:
Arroniero was a gillian and all the other espada were at the very least adjuca.

Grimmjows fraccion were adjuca and some point they apparently reverted (aizens stament about them being gillian).

Menos decrease their size as they evolve and also become stronger. We also know that when an arrancar releases, he takes on a form roughly similar to their original hollow form. Logically speaking, if a VL has humanoid shape and size, he would actually take on a humanoid form when he releases. The problem with this is that most arrancar take on roughly human forms when they release(with obvious exceptions) which makes it harder to determine what kind of menos they were.

There is something that does bother about this though. Look at the shape the mask of a gillian has:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/284/06/
As we know all gillian look exactly the same. But what about gillians who retain their personality? Do they all look exactly the same or are their mask different from one another? If they all look the same and gain different forms after evolving into an adjuca, then it doesn't make sense that the mask of several former gillian arrancar are different. Guess kubo still owes us a few explantions....

I thought that Espada, Adjuchas and Gillians were in their own rank. I thought that they evolve into the next stage completely and become an entirely different being, like an entirely difference species.

kkck
April 26, 2009, 02:59 AM
I thought that Espada, Adjuchas and Gillians were in their own rank. I thought that they evolve into the next stage completely and become an entirely different being, like an entirely difference species.

I am not entirely sure of what you mean... Obviously menos and arrancar are completely different given that arrancar are hybrids but the same cannot be said for adjucas, gillians and VL. Gillian, adjuca and vasto lords are all menos, they are simply different classes...

~Joshua~
April 26, 2009, 10:34 AM
I am not entirely sure of what you mean... Obviously menos and arrancar are completely different given that arrancar are hybrids but the same cannot be said for adjucas, gillians and VL. Gillian, adjuca and vasto lords are all menos, they are simply different classes...

That's why I was asking how an Espada can be a VL if they are in different classes.

stevenash
April 26, 2009, 12:44 PM
That's why I was asking how an Espada can be a VL if they are in different classes.

Vasto Lorde is an evolution phase....Espada is ranking given to Arrancar....much like in army...:D...So if we consider evolution...

Gillian is monkey and Vasto Lorde is human...:D...and Fraccion is private and Espada is army general...

Espada is not an evolution process or a class...a VL can be Espada just as a Gillian can...:D...a VL could also be a fraccion for that matter (assuming all Espada are super strong VL..e.g: if 20 VL exist...10 will be Espada...the other 10 will be fraccion...:D...)

~Joshua~
April 26, 2009, 02:39 PM
Vasto Lorde is an evolution phase....Espada is ranking given to Arrancar....much like in army...:D...So if we consider evolution...

Gillian is monkey and Vasto Lorde is human...:D...and Fraccion is private and Espada is army general...

Espada is not an evolution process or a class...a VL can be Espada just as a Gillian can...:D...a VL could also be a fraccion for that matter (assuming all Espada are super strong VL..e.g: if 20 VL exist...10 will be Espada...the other 10 will be fraccion...:D...)

Ok, so then do VL have masks? Because if they do, how can they be Arrancar....?

stevenash
April 26, 2009, 02:54 PM
Again I say...:D...a Vasto Lorde can have masks...but if they take if off...then thay become Arrancar Vasto Lorde....:D...Arrancar does not happen from evolution...but happen from taking off masks...:D...so if Aizen found a Vasto Lorde...they'll have mask...then with Hougyoku....take off their mask...making them an Arrancar...:D...

~Joshua~
April 26, 2009, 03:00 PM
Again I say...:D...a Vasto Lorde can have masks...but if they take if off...then thay become Arrancar Vasto Lorde....:D...Arrancar does not happen from evolution...but happen from taking off masks...:D...so if Aizen found a Vasto Lorde...they'll have mask...then with Hougyoku....take off their mask...making them an Arrancar...:D...

So it's not possible for one to be both at the same time?

stevenash
April 26, 2009, 03:06 PM
If you mean changing from an Arrancar to a non Arrancar hollow...then I don't think it is possible...:D...

But they can be an Arrancar Vasto Lorde, Arrancar Adjuchas, Arrancar Gillian...maybe even Arrancar demi-hollow....:D...that means....they become Arrancar when they are at that evolution level...:D

~Joshua~
April 26, 2009, 03:11 PM
If you mean changing from an Arrancar to a non Arrancar hollow...then I don't think it is possible...:D...

But they can be an Arrancar Vasto Lorde, Arrancar Adjuchas, Arrancar Gillian...maybe even Arrancar demi-hollow....:D...that means....they become Arrancar when they are at that evolution level...:D

I was always lead to believe VL are extremely powerful hollows with a mask, and once they lose the mask (through becoming Arrancar) they are no longer VL.

stevenash
April 26, 2009, 03:26 PM
Nope...they are still Vasto Lorde class arrancar....just like how Grimmjow is Adjuchas class arrancar and Aaroniere is Gillian class arrancar...I am not sure if a gillian that become arrancar can evolve into adjuchas class arrancar...:D....so even if Halibel release makes her looks humanoid she may still be just an adjuchas class arrancar....or may even be a Vasto Lorde that takes off her mask...:D

~Joshua~
April 26, 2009, 03:41 PM
Nope...they are still Vasto Lorde class arrancar....just like how Grimmjow is Adjuchas class arrancar and Aaroniere is Gillian class arrancar...I am not sure if a gillian that become arrancar can evolve into adjuchas class arrancar...:D....so even if Halibel release makes her looks humanoid she may still be just an adjuchas class arrancar....or may even be a Vasto Lorde that takes off her mask...:D

So basically VL, Gillian, and Adjuchas are all just titles/ranks like lieutenants and captains?

stevenash
April 26, 2009, 04:24 PM
No, Espada, Fraccion, Exequis are ranks like lietenants and captain...
VL, Adjuchas and Gillian are stages of evolution...:D

kkck
April 26, 2009, 06:42 PM
Once a hollow becomes a complete arrancar, does it really matter what it was before? Obviously if a strong hollow becomes an arrancar, the result will be a strong arrancar and a weak hollow will result in a weak arrancar, but I doubt different kinds of hollows result in different kinds of arrancar.
To put it simply, a hollow can be a regular hollow, or a menos(which divide into gillian, adjuca and vasto lorde) but an arrancar is always an arrancar regardless of what type of hollow he used to be.

zerocooldx
April 26, 2009, 07:24 PM
Once a hollow becomes a complete arrancar, does it really matter what it was before? Obviously if a strong hollow becomes an arrancar, the result will be a strong arrancar and a weak hollow will result in a weak arrancar, but I doubt different kinds of hollows result in different kinds of arrancar.
To put it simply, a hollow can be a regular hollow, or a menos(which divide into gillian, adjuca and vasto lorde) but an arrancar is always an arrancar regardless of what type of hollow he used to be.

You answered your own question lolz, but an Arrancar isen't a link in the Hollow evolutionary chain. Arrancar are "created" Hollows, that don't naturally evolve to that stage, just like Shinigami don't naturally evolve into Vizards. And when an Arrancar releases it's zapakuto all that happens is that that Arrancar reverts back to it's "true" and "original" form. It's the complete opposite of a Shinigami's release which grants that Shinigami new power when they release their zanpakuto. So a high level or a weak, Gillian can never match up with a high level, or a weak Adjucas when they release, because they revert back to their original forms. Which also explains why the Adjucas Class Hollows among the Espada are above the Gillian Class Hollows.

kkck
April 26, 2009, 08:21 PM
You answered your own question lolz, but an Arrancar isen't a link in the Hollow evolutionary chain. Arrancar are "created" Hollows, that don't naturally evolve to that stage, just like Shinigami don't naturally evolve into Vizards. And when an Arrancar releases it's zapakuto all that happens is that that Arrancar reverts back to it's "true" and "original" form. It's the complete opposite of a Shinigami's release which grants that Shinigami new power when they release their zanpakuto. So a high level or a weak, Gillian can never match up with a high level, or a weak Adjucas when they release, because they revert back to their original forms. Which also explains why the Adjucas Class Hollows among the Espada are above the Gillian Class Hollows.

My point was whether there is an actual difference between arrancar depending on what they used to be. An adjuca is clearly different from a gillian or a vasto lorde, but is a former gillian different from a former adjuca? You could say they are adjuca arrancar or gillian arrancar but I don't think arrancar would be different from each other in the same context as a VL would be different from a adjuca or a gillian.

IMHO there isn't an actual difference between different arrancar in the same context as there is a difference different monos or hollows.

Forever_Melody
April 26, 2009, 09:15 PM
If there wasn't such a huge gap between each class of Menos, perhaps it wouldn't matter. There's also the issue of an arrancar becoming stronger after the arrancarization process.

I mean, Gillian, Adjuchas and VL are basically labels given to entities based on power levels and certain correlative features(ex: size). But aside from that, they're nothing more.

I mean, if arrancar-ization is supposed to make a hollow stronger, then the whole point is to reach another level. Also note that arrancars CAN become stronger after becmonig arrancar(see Nnoitora and Szayel's increase in rank).

Therefore, it should theoretically be possible for say an Adjuchas level arrancar to reach a VL hollow's level unless the manga tells me it's impossible to pass a certain threshold(like Shawlong stated he thinks they were "meant" to be Adjuchas). The said arrancar would still technically be called an Adjuchas since that's what he was prior to arrancar-ization, but perhaps it'd be possible for him/her to reach the VL level of strength though.

zerocooldx
April 26, 2009, 10:02 PM
kkck I understand what you mean but i still say they are all different for two reasons. One if they weren't then there would be no need for the Espada numbers in their sealed forms. That is of crouse before they release, and show their real power. And two, like i said the Arrancar release reverts them back to their "original" form. No matter what they were before, they will revert back to their original stage once they release. So regardless of what they currently resemble, when they release the difference between them is very clear. Even though they are all Arrancar they are still different, Vasto Lorde, Adjucas, and Gillian are all different. It's just that we haven't see Vasto Lorde so we could compare the power gaps. But the power gap between a Gillian and Adjucas has been pretty clearly defined with the Espada.

Forever_Melody I don't believe that Arrancar can not become Vasto Lorde, because i view them as being the same as Vizards. I believe that Aizen indeed was trying to create Vasto Lorde, the "ultimate entity". To me anyways, that is the only explanation for his experiments. A Vasto Lorde is the entity that apparently seems to have no limits. Seeing as they are stronger than any Hollow class or Captain class Shinigami and as Aizen stated, Shinigami have a limit of their growth which prompted his experiment. I say all of this for three reasons. One if the Vizards and Arrancar were that perfect being than Aizen has no need for Vasto Lorde. Two if Vasto Lorde could be created, like Arrancars and Vizards, than Aizen would not need to "recruit" them. And three Aizen has a very large interest in Ichigo, who is a "natural" Vizard, and possibly even a Vasto Lorde, all once again being his natural powers.