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bax
July 21, 2007, 12:44 AM
The long awaited chapter 363 is HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15639)!!!

What a thrilling chapter!!! Sasuke is down! Manda is down! Deidara is no more! As supposed Tobi!! NOES!! TOBI!! Or is it? Maybe it's more than meets the eye?

And finally the mysterious enigmatic leader made his appearance! With his lovely blue haired sidekick too :o And he defies all theory of the leader is from Konoha!! Looks like Kishi wants to drop the bomb on us once more!!

And who is that silhouette? The leader is receiving instructions from him! Who is this mysterious guy? Is he the one who pulling the strings behind Akatsuki all the time?

Now, you guys, predict what will happened in chapter 364!! With Sasuke "immobilized", will the Konoha squad catch up with him? Predict away ^^

maximxuk
July 27, 2007, 02:37 PM
Wow, chapter 364 makes it seem like most of Akatsuki are puppets that don't know that there is a leader above Pein. Tobi being the true leader, hmm I don't know. . .where is his Akatsuki ring?? and why does Deidara and Zetsu order around Tobi if he is the leader?? I dont get it!!!

finitesaidness
July 27, 2007, 02:43 PM
Wow, Tobi is the Leader and Uchiha Madara. argh. Why all the wasted time and space making him so funny, goofy and cool, being a student of Zetsu, calling Deidara "sempai", trying to join Akatsuki, and then making him so questionably like Obito.

WHY NOT GIVE NARUTO"S HISTORY sometime soon? This chapter was nicely drawn, yet, seems to be going downhill.

Yans86
July 27, 2007, 02:44 PM
Tobi cannot be Uchiha Madara,I'm sure about that,he said that he has the same power talking about the sharingan......but.............I'm almost sure that he is.............Obito Uchiha,the one who gave to Kakashi his left eye because he has shown his sharingan and the mask have only an hole....on the right eye,and the names also...TOBI_OBITO...to much similar.........PS:sorry for my english,i'm italian!

炭素
July 27, 2007, 03:03 PM
hahaha I always knew Tobi was Obito! or at least I think that's confirmed (Uchiha Madara?)

him being Obito makes more sense to me but I guess I'll have to wait till it's translated to know what's going on here....

DarkManSharingan32
July 27, 2007, 04:16 PM
Wow...
There are only a few times in a man's life where he can shout "i told you so" to so many people.
But i wont...
--


Anyways, another great chapter from Kishi...
I'll comment more as the tranlation becomes more clear and everything is fleshed out a bit.


but wow.
I am happy. lol

Egoboo
July 27, 2007, 04:22 PM
Well i think the most important sentence in this chapter is on page 18...when Tobi makes his statement about the Sharingan´s true power.
Should that statement interpreted as "My power...Uchiha Madara´s power" because he IS Uchiha Madara and simply likes to talk big about his own name/reputation in third person or does that sentence mean his power is similar to the power of Uchiha Madara and that they both possess the Sharingan´s true power?
As far as i´ve heard in the different translations so far both could be possible...i suppose it will take a pretty good agreement between the different translators here at mangahelpers in order to make that statement undoubtably clear.
About the rest of the chapter...Itachi seems to be pretty sure about Sasuke still being alive. Suspiciously sure, to be honest...although that´s most likely one of those "they are brothers, they can feel if the other one is alive"-thingies...never heard of that phenomena outside of twin-relationships though =/
And it´s now quite obvious that Sasuke wasn´t playing with Deidara and did not deactivate his Sharingan to simply piss him off...just activating it for a couple of seconds to calm down Juugo was enough to completely drain him of all his reserves.

theshizzle
July 27, 2007, 04:24 PM
According to HisshouBuraiKen's translation, it seems Tobi says Sharingan's true power, my power, uchiha madara's power.. he doesn't say that He is Madara necessarily ...


Madara might just have been an ancient figure and the only person

to Achieve the Sharingan's True power. Tobi is still Tobi but is on the

verge of achieving the Sharingans true power like Madara did. He

probably needs the tailed beasts to do so.. well thats my

speculation..

maxhrk
July 27, 2007, 04:26 PM
have anyone noticed the difference between other sharingans and this tobi's sharingan? it look eccertic enough than other normal 3 tomed sharingan.

hitokugutsu
July 27, 2007, 04:32 PM
OMG in just two chapter Akatsuki has changed. Itachi suddenly seems less important compared to Pein and Tobi. But the surprising thing in this chapter was (besides Tobi being Madara) that Itachi knwew his brother was alive. Itachi had referred to the 3 MS users a long time ago wich means he knows about Madara and yet he is not "important" enough to be present at Peins, BH and Madara/Tobi meeting. Hmmm I'm sensing some big conspiracy in Akatsuki and they definately have antoher goal than "conquering the world".

And what was that thing about the weather? Did Itachi make it stop raining or something?? And also that remark about the weather and Pein (something about the heaven crying) Guess he truly is a Rain-ninja

Oww and Tobi got the most bad-ass cloak of all Akatsuki -_-

Glowstuff
July 27, 2007, 04:32 PM
A lot of the translators in the spoiler thread said that Tobi, was talking about himself as Uchiha madara.

Yans86
July 27, 2007, 04:33 PM
There's a big theory from in italian guy about the uchiha family.I hope I'll be able to translate it to you because is really interesting......it concern mangekyou sharingan,Uchiha Madara and Kyubi,the clan Uchiha and Hyuga,Sojobo (a konoha tengu),Tsukoyomi, Amaterasu e Susanoo and much more!for who knows a little nit italian,here's the link:

http://narutoultimateninja.forumcommunity.net/?t=5215353

theshizzle
July 27, 2007, 04:37 PM
There's a big theory from in italian guy about the uchiha family.I hope I'll be able to translate it to you because is really interesting......it concern mangekyou sharingan,Uchiha Madara and Kyubi,the clan Uchiha and Hyuga,Sojobo (a konoha tengu),Tsukoyomi, Amaterasu e Susanoo and much more!for who knows a little nit italian,here's the link:

http://narutoultimateninja.forumcommunity.net/?t=5215353

We ve heard it all b4 its just speculatioin..

hitokugutsu, i agree there might be some conspiracy, the rain stopping on Itachi may have signified he's no longer the main threat. I would like to see Itachi turn on Akatsuki.

sharinganLS
July 27, 2007, 04:39 PM
Wow...
There are only a few times in a man's life where he can shout "i told you so" to so many people.
But i wont...
--


Anyways, another great chapter from Kishi...
I'll comment more as the tranlation becomes more clear and everything is fleshed out a bit.


but wow.
I am happy. lol

Dude i know exactly how you feel :)
Its now 50% chance of Tobi being obito (the other 50% is tobi being madara). I always knew that tobi was special, i knew that he wouldnt die from that blast. But i never expected that he would end up being a leader.
Anyways i also thought abt something; from wat we have seen Zetsu, Itachi and Kisame dont know that Tobi is the akatsuki leader. And if tobi turns out to be obito; the connection that some ppl had made between zetsu and tobi would be wrong (the theory which stated that zetsu could have ressurected obito; check tobi=obito thread).

dedal_x
July 27, 2007, 04:40 PM
Tobi = Obito (backwards and without "o") Stupid? Yes. But it is all I can think of now.

Uchiha Madara is clearly someone from past. An ancient figure, a legend, maybe. Even Kyuubi knows about him. And the sheer name of that person put Sasuke into silent rage.

That may be because the ways of obtaining(improving) the Sharingan's power. To get Mangekyou you have to kill your best friend. To get true power...I don't even want to imagine that.

Most probably, Madara is a legend of a Sharingan user who commited every sin imaginable to obtain the 'true power'. Such legends are proven to be passed thruogh generations of family they refer to. Obviously, Itachi, Sasuke, Obito...all know how to get 'true power'.

EDIT: lol, 3 minutes and I already got a PM "Tobi isn't Obito backwards, even if you ditch the O" Yes, it is. Japanese uses syllables in writing, so if you write O-bi-to backwards in kana you will get To-bi-o.

narutimateguy
July 27, 2007, 04:48 PM
Im pretty sure Tobi is saying that His power is Madara's power, the same power Madara obtained, Not that he himself is Madara, I think that has become clear to me now. Now there are just two speculations on who tobi is for me,

1. Tobi is Obito, as much as i dont want to believe it because tobi got f'd up, it seems most likely.

2. Tobi is some unknown Uchiha. Itachi killed everyone in the clan, so it seems fair to think that he was acting upon the orders of that unknown uchiha, which i think is Tobi.

hitokugutsu
July 27, 2007, 04:50 PM
If it is true that Tobi=Obito and he obtained Uchiha Madaras power (I know that the translations differ in some scans so I'm not sure) then it could be possible to explain how Kakashi got the MS. Itachi was clearly surprised that a non-Uchiha obtained the MS but what if Tobi aquired the MS and Kakashi's sharingan got "upgraded" automatically because those eyes are "linked" in some way....(or maybe I just read to much Harry Potter -_-)

narutimateguy
July 27, 2007, 04:57 PM
thats a very interesting point you made Hitokugutsu, wow thats awesome, thats f'ing awesome, kakashi and obito have the same eyes, so it would make sense that their power is linked. haha fanboys unite!

DarkManSharingan32
July 27, 2007, 05:00 PM
If it is true that Tobi=Obito and he obtained Uchiha Madaras power (I know that the translations differ in some scans so I'm not sure) then it could be possible to explain how Kakashi got the MS. Itachi was clearly surprised that a non-Uchiha obtained the MS but what if Tobi aquired the MS and Kakashi's sharingan got "upgraded" automatically because those eyes are "linked" in some way....(or maybe I just read to much Harry Potter -_-)

Pretty excellent notion right there... especially since "Space/Time" ninjutsu has been popping up in the last few chapters.

If this is the kind of power that Tobi controls... and that amplified with the Sharingan, I could begin to believe how truly frightening Uchiha Madara was.
---

That kind of parallel seems to also forshadow the Kakshi vs. Tobi battle... one where Kakashi just might die.


The impetus for Naruto and Sasuke uniting once again?
It could be.

maximxuk
July 27, 2007, 05:03 PM
Why did the leader of Pain/Pein say that Tobi was easily replaceable in 363 and where is his Akatsuki ring? Right thumb I believe. . .look at the last picture on 364 its not there.

Malthur
July 27, 2007, 05:03 PM
OMFG

How long have we been waiting for this???!!!
HOW LONG??!!
I'm so...happy :''-)

Now, that we know all these new things, I have to read the tengu theory again to see what of the theory was and might become true...

My Prediction:
Tobi is Obito, Itachi killed the Uchiha Clan in the name of Obito and they're trying to let Sasuke learn the Mangekyou Sharingan, so they could do the 3 MS Jutsus at the same time (eachone does 1 of the jutsus...) and could ressurect or obtain (whatever...) the powers of Uchiha Madara or even his Tengu father :-)
I just dunno WHY they should be doing this...I mean...Obito must be already the fukkin strongest person in the world but...hmm...dont know °_°
Maybe with Madaras/Tengus help they could turn the world in a place full of Uchihas Ö_Ö

Black/Light
July 27, 2007, 05:04 PM
If it is true that Tobi=Obito and he obtained Uchiha Madaras power (I know that the translations differ in some scans so I'm not sure) then it could be possible to explain how Kakashi got the MS. Itachi was clearly surprised that a non-Uchiha obtained the MS but what if Tobi aquired the MS and Kakashi's sharingan got "upgraded" automatically because those eyes are "linked" in some way....(or maybe I just read to much Harry Potter -_-)

Thats been my thory for a long time now.
I mean, just look at Kaoro. Oro's body parts still hold his chakra and it's even trying to take over. That would be the best answer imo because A. Im sure that their are other people who trained their SG longer and harder than Kak. Wouldn't make much sense for Kak to get MS just by "training really hard" and B. There seems to be a clear rule that MS is only gotten after killing your best bud and thats probly why very few have it. Im sure it would be more common if you could just "train really hard for it".

sharinganLS
July 27, 2007, 05:07 PM
Yes i too thought abt the kakashi's Msharingan relation with tobi; that might actually be related. But wat im now waiting to see is if tobi is really obito how would kishimoto explain this huge change in character personality.

Wow where are those Tobi = obito hatters now? :p

DarkManSharingan32
July 27, 2007, 05:16 PM
Yes i too thought abt the kakashi's Msharingan relation with tobi; that might actually be related. But wat im now waiting to see is if tobi is really obito how would kishimoto explain this huge change in character personality.

Wow where are those Tobi = obito hatters now? :p

I'm still waiting for Decorus' flaming scathe of hate towards Kishimoto about this chapter...
And an apology for all the garbage he talked about us Tobi=Obito kids over the past few weeks.


bwaaahaha.
---

But now that I think of it...
Kiba said he found Sasuke.

Do you really think they will catch up to Sasuke first?
Or will Pain do them the honor of catching Naruto..

I mean, Sasuke has all but just about learned that the Akatsuki is going after those like Naruto... and when he wakes up i fully expect him to put it together.
---

I think i need to predict a Saving Naruto arc... lol

2ndKurono
July 27, 2007, 05:22 PM
this chap was banging i have a lot to say,so lets begin.

i wanna thank Kiba for having such a great nose,finnaly we may see Naruto and Sasuke togheter and this time with no conflicts.

and it seems Tobi aint Obito or maybe he is and wants Madaras power or he is himself Madara and wants to take Sasukes power.

Finnaly they recognized Naruto,Pein should watch,i dont care if he newer lost or sh!t,Naruto is now someone u shouldnt mess with,then.lets move on.

Itachi,it may seem for me Itachi has his own plan to do some and i think he will turn out as a good guy maybe but will die,maybe cause he killed everyone in his clan that Tobi/Madara couldnt get his hands on the Sharingan thats why he may have killed then he will die and anyway.This is some i think.

And now in da end when i seen his face and the girl talked like "Pein U" that my prowe that he is def Narutos father,but he was somehow brought to life or wasnt dead at all just look at him hair is like Narutos just maybe he died them just to hide his apearance,then look at his neck it has stiches,that may seem he was blown to pieces after sealin the Kyubi and anyways Pein wont kill Naruto,they both will team up(i hope) and deafeat Madara.

Tobi will be betrayed,ofcourse only Zetzu maybe on his side,anyways whats Zetzus special ability?

maxhrk
July 27, 2007, 05:27 PM
OMG in just two chapter Akatsuki has changed. Itachi suddenly seems less important compared to Pein and Tobi. But the surprising thing in this chapter was (besides Tobi being Madara) that Itachi knwew his brother was alive. Itachi had referred to the 3 MS users a long time ago wich means he knows about Madara and yet he is not "important" enough to be present at Peins, BH and Madara/Tobi meeting. Hmmm I'm sensing some big conspiracy in Akatsuki and they definately have antoher goal than "conquering the world".

And what was that thing about the weather? Did Itachi make it stop raining or something?? And also that remark about the weather and Pein (something about the heaven crying) Guess he truly is a Rain-ninja

Oww and Tobi got the most bad-ass cloak of all Akatsuki -_-

bold is my empthasis. I think Itachi can see what happen in next few seconds to see that storm is going to stop. you forget this is one of sharingan's feature? or rather.. only Itachi's peronally power of weather prediction that Only Itachi know?


beware weatherman. if you see Itachi coming up on your news. Always listen and obey to his mostly accurate weather news and his advice what to do under those specific condition. If he say you should jump. you jump. if he say you will die in hurricane. He is right. ALWAYS RIGHT.

Beware the weatherman, Uchiha Itachi.. Sorry i cant resist say such things. :)

Pein is a rain ninja... and i wonder what make that akatsuki girl. hmm she show no headband on her.

Black/Light
July 27, 2007, 05:27 PM
I'm still waiting for Decorus' flaming scathe of hate towards Kishimoto about this chapter...
And an apology for all the garbage he talked about us Tobi=Obito kids over the past few weeks.


bwaaahaha.
---

But now that I think of it...
Kiba said he found Sasuke.

Do you really think they will catch up to Sasuke first?
Or will Pain do them the honor of catching Naruto..

I mean, Sasuke has all but just about learned that the Akatsuki is going after those like Naruto... and when he wakes up i fully expect him to put it together.
---

I think i need to predict a Saving Naruto arc... lolDecorus aint that bad. . . when he aint bashing the Obito=Tobit people that is. lol

But I don't see Sas going anywhere too soon. He just got the dog mess stumped out of him, he has no clue where Itachi is and he doesn't even know that Naruto is on his tail.

I wonder if Pain will get to naruto before Naruto meets Sas. . . or will Sas see Pain and try to take him on to get info 0_o (Lol, no. Something tells me Pain can beat the crap out of Sas)

The Technical
July 27, 2007, 05:28 PM
Hey guys, I'm a long-time lurker, and have to use this first post to say that I've turned into one of the biggest Tobi freaks ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

qwerty1
July 27, 2007, 05:32 PM
hi was wondering if anyone knows what manga the characters behind naruto are from on the cover of weekly jump 35 ??

Paradoxicon
July 27, 2007, 05:38 PM
lol who would have thought that this crazy idea of Tobi being the RAL would be true ^^
Tobi = obito is now pretty obvious. And somehow he wants to gain Madara's power or the true power of the sharingan. blarf, for one question answered you get 20 new ones ^^

Can it be that AL/Pain is under some kind of permanent genjutsu by Tobi? Overall his strange eyes look really disorientated.

azzy
July 27, 2007, 05:47 PM
ok so... WTF!?

so tobi is the RAL!!?

and whos he? uchiha madara? or obito?

Uchiha Sony
July 27, 2007, 05:50 PM
obito... sure... and he wants the sharingan true power... or Uchiha Madara's power ;D~

bank3r
July 27, 2007, 05:52 PM
This is my taughts from my information...

1. Uchiha Madara was a legendary figure because he was one of the first of the Uchiha Clan and he was born with the Mangekyou Sharingan.

2. So if number 1 is true, Tobi cannot be Uchiha Madara but he could be another Uchiha we haven't heard about that was born with the same power. And that would ended up making alot of sense.

3. About Tobi being Obito that is still the posibilities, but I am not sure if Kakashi and 4th Hokage took Obito's body back to Konoha and put it in the grave that Kakashi visited often.

4. I also think that Tobi is the true leader who disguised himself in the Akutsuki and work under Pein, but still pulls the strings from behind.

That is all...let me know what u guys think..

theshizzle
July 27, 2007, 05:54 PM
Wow Naruto has become so good we have been getting more and more new comers!! Thanks great, Cheers to all ya! :)

So the Obito being Tobi theory will resurface again..

Decorus
July 27, 2007, 06:02 PM
I don't see Obito = Tobi mentioned anywhere in the manga. So until Kishi has Tobi say I am Obito witness the powerz of my leet Sharingan we have to assume that we have another loser Uchiha from the translation some people are giving it turns out he is claiming to be Madera. So I have absolutely no reason to apologize because its still a load until there is actual concrete proof that he is Obito which I doubt he is, because the head the Akatsuki can't be a gimpy loser who cared more about his friends then his own life and died for it.

The Sharingan's true power...
My power...Uchiha Madara's power...

As far as I can tell he is claiming to be Uchiha Madara.

Translating from one language to another is very tricky. See the Container translation for Itachi's speech when Itachi is actually refering to capacity.

lordHokage
July 27, 2007, 06:10 PM
Very good chapter. :)

Itachi is suspicious. When the dust settles, Akatsuki organization will crumble from within. Itachi, Kisame, Zetsu, Pein and the Blue Haired lady all have hidden agendas, what evil organization members don’t. Whoever is Jiraiya secret agent will play a very important role in Tobi’s downfall. :blink

THE SHARINGAN’S TRUE POWER… MY POWER… UCHIHA MADARA. Tobi is Uchiha Tobi and not Uchiha Madara. The Sharingan’s true power is Uchiha Madara. :p

midiman
July 27, 2007, 06:12 PM
Hey guys and girls listen this is gonna be a long one!

Unbelievable Chapter.That's for Kishi.

I like it how everything turns out to be (Sasuke seems to get close to Hebi[friendship],finally Naruto gets acknowledged by Akatsuki [as a strong Shinobi] and we get to see emotions of Itachi [STRIKE,finally].


Well for Itachi it seems he kinda knows that the Leader was lying or he put some seal like thing on Sasuke so that he would always know if Sasuke was alive or dead.
It kinda looked like "Drama" (love between brothers[Well,Sasuke hates you boy ^^]).

As for Pain we get to know that he was never beaten in Battle but even so there is one Question :,,Who did Pain fought against ?" (Thats the most important thing to value his strength[Pherhaps he fought all of Akatsuki ,one on one]) and we get to know that naruto actually really destroyed two hearts with one strike (Kakuzu fight) and that Akatsuki seems to know about his jutsus (This is the point where i got confused because neither Itachi nor Kakuzu were talking about his jutsus so I wonder how they get to know about that) and fears them (thats for tobi but not for PAin nor his Girli).
I am really exited to see Naruto+Konoha vs Pain+Girly ! Believe it !

Oh Sasuke I am happy that you actually get some friends who really seem to not just wanna take yar buddy (Well not including Konoha) but I hope ya not gonna kill tham for Mangek-Shari.
On the other hand we see that Team hebi does have some healing-ninjutsu-skills and that finally we see sasuke too exhausted to even stay awake.(Not like in Daida fight where he still was able tu summon MAnda,oh poor manda)
Finally sasuke gets to know why his Brother is after Naruto (special Chakra, Sasuke himself accepted Naruto as special [becaus Chakra?]) and i think after Konoha and Hebi meets they wont fight but will work together (lol Sasuke uses Naruto as a bait [Pain comes in to Konoha-Hebi and sees Sasuke.First thing he does is punch sasuke once for Daidara and than talks with naruto ,,Com'on Naruto i promise it won't hurt,(than very quitlie)me!")


And now finnally to the patagonist of this Chapter.
Aplaus for my buddy Tobi.
I really didn't expect to see Tobi as the boss behind AL even after everyone started making assumptions about him being Shadow-AL because he was on the scene of battelfield because i tought he was lying half dead somewhere (unconcious , thats why zetsu clouldn't feel his chakra/presence).
But now we know better.
We also get to know his descent (For those that said he was obito,sorry guys) because no matter wich one he was ,Obito or Madara ,both are from Konoha and i think that now ther will soon be alot of new assumptions and theories about him and who he could be.
I hope Orochimaru was aware of him and got some information.


Thats for me and this Chapter and i predict for next week too.
We are gonna see Konoha and Hebi unite and in the 2cond Chapter we will see badass Pain and his Girly jump in and say ,,Com on naruto-kun lets go"

Coup
July 27, 2007, 06:13 PM
The way this manga is going it seems that the 3 Uchiha's left alive are the "ultimate" ninja's(besides Pein, he will do some hurting). I wonder how naruto is going to comeback to the forefront.

midiman
July 27, 2007, 06:17 PM
OMG in just two chapter Akatsuki has changed. Itachi suddenly seems less important compared to Pein and Tobi. But the surprising thing in this chapter was (besides Tobi being Madara) that Itachi knwew his brother was alive. Itachi had referred to the 3 MS users a long time ago wich means he knows about Madara and yet he is not "important" enough to be present at Peins, BH and Madara/Tobi meeting. Hmmm I'm sensing some big conspiracy in Akatsuki and they definately have antoher goal than "conquering the world".

And what was that thing about the weather? Did Itachi make it stop raining or something?? And also that remark about the weather and Pein (something about the heaven crying) Guess he truly is a Rain-ninja

Oww and Tobi got the most bad-ass cloak of all Akatsuki -_-

Yes Itachi stopped the rain ! You know how ? Sharingan !

He did Genjutsu on the clouds ^^

Gulio
July 27, 2007, 06:21 PM
Stupid sasuck.

Why does everyone think the Uchiha are great? I think there are better bloodlines out there, that would kick the crap out of Uchiha.

hayateblitz
July 27, 2007, 06:22 PM
ahdfkladhflkah! woah.

so Tobi = possible obito and/or akatsuki leader acting behind the scenes
-
and he is wanting to obtain the sharingan's true power aka Mandara's power
-
by collecting all the jinchuuriki??!!
---
what i really want to know is,, what does the rain signify? first it stopped raining on itachi,, and then it started raining (with lightning) when Tobi appeared... and wat does the last statement mean? "Pain.. you.." AHHH! can't wait for the next chapter. Hope Naruto meets up with sas first before having to fight Pain. Maybe they'll both team up and Pain will have his first (and last) lost!! bwahaha.

sas9870
July 27, 2007, 06:33 PM
who is this uchiha madara did they mentioned him before????

Gio
July 27, 2007, 06:33 PM
omg awesome chapter xP.

i know everyone is on Tobi = Obito thing and maybe that's right... but how about a Tobi = Uchiha Shisui Theory for a change?

marte1980
July 27, 2007, 06:35 PM
Well,I thought this chapter would have been better.The false spoilers were better than the real chapter.
Anyway,I think that maybe the Jiraiya's spy into Akatsuki is Itachi;maybe he was not the one who killed all the others Uchihas.

Koen
July 27, 2007, 06:51 PM
Okay, tobi is talking about uchiha madara strength. He's talking about a legacy in some way. It certainly have to do something with the secret sasuke was talking about.

Tobi seems to be more than we already know. He was there during the fight between sasuke and deidara. For some reason? He certainly wanted to see what the uchiha was capable of. Tobi is also pulling the strings (but anyone mentioned at the end those sheadows? They seem human? Is there a higher force in akatsuki?)

Tobi being obito isn't that dumb? I somehow get a feeling that tobi will claim that eye of kakashi back. But on the other hand how would tobi have known about the uchiha secret at that age

omniscientone
July 27, 2007, 06:54 PM
Awesome chapter, i totally didn't see that coming. Amazing deception by Tobi. I sure hope he's obito, cuz I still don't see the sense of using only one eye otherwise. I mean, cover one eye if the other eye is a Sharingan, but no need to cover the other eye if both are Sharingan's. It just seems to fit too perfectly.

Also, does this mean that Pain's talk about WOlrd domination and all that was just crap ? Is there another hidden agenda which TObi is after ??

lordHokage
July 27, 2007, 06:58 PM
finally Naruto gets acknowledged by Akatsuki [as a strong Shinobi] and we get to see emotions of Itachi [STRIKE,finally].

As for Pain we get to know that he was never beaten in Battle but even so there is one

Finally sasuke gets to know why his Brother is after Naruto (special Chakra, Sasuke himself accepted Naruto as special [becaus Chakra?])

Hard work pays off. He earns it. Pein is very strong and I don’t think Team Leaf or Team Hebi can defeat him. If he is related to Naruto, he will not kill his allies, a ninja must see beneath the beneath. I am glad the Sasuke finally knows the true about Naruto special chakra, he should be feeling very stupid after trying to kill poor Naruto. :blink

Littlewig
July 27, 2007, 06:59 PM
OMG, Pain can control the weather!

Also, Tobi = Obito, all the haters can read another manga for all I care.

Great chapter, I love the sharingan, it is the coolest thing ever. Sasuke = awesome. Itachi = good guy. Naruto = love and friendship. Pain = hatred and loneliness.

sharinganLS
July 27, 2007, 07:02 PM
Awesome chapter, i totally didn't see that coming. Amazing deception by Tobi. I sure hope he's obito, cuz I still don't see the sense of using only one eye otherwise. I mean, cover one eye if the other eye is a Sharingan, but no need to cover the other eye if both are Sharingan's. It just seems to fit too perfectly.

Also, does this mean that Pain's talk about WOlrd domination and all that was just crap ? Is there another hidden agenda which TObi is after ??

Yeah Tobi = obito fits in the best since we are talking abt a one eyed sharingan user. And yes it seems like the plans of world domination wasnt their real goal. Personally i find the goal of achieving uchiha madara's power much more cooler than world domination.

Littlewig
July 27, 2007, 07:04 PM
Tobi = Madara reborn in Obito's dead body.

Madara is trying to regain the powers he lost by capturing all the biju. Tobi isn't Obito, but Madara using him as a vessel.

Why anyone would believe that Obito would become a bad guy and the leader of an evil organization is beyond me. It's like naruto going around and stomping babies and killing pet animals.

Omi
July 27, 2007, 07:16 PM
The only way I think Tobi would know about Naruto's technique is if he was there. Since neither Kakuzu nor Hidan survived plus plant guy wasn't there, I'll say he saw it through Kakashi. Nice evil pic of Tobi with the lightning flashing behind him ... its the muhahahahaha scene for the animated version.

BTW, I don't think the special chakra bit was regarding bijus. I think it was refering to the Akatsuki members ... each of them probably has a unique chakra signature that is part of their strength and part of the reason why they can synchronize with different bijuu's at least during extraction.

Yondaime Uzumaki
July 27, 2007, 07:18 PM
Why does everyone keep saying that RAL = Tobi. Also, the RAL doesn't neccessarily have to be a Uchiha. Kakashi is a perfect example of this, he's not even a Uchiha but he was still able to obtain the MS sharingan. To add to that, Orochimaru wanted to unlock the true powers of the sharingan as well. Now granted, the RAL did know about the battle between Sasuke and Deidara and Tobi was the only other person there, but he also knew about the battle between Naruto and Kakuzu. If he's that powerful and all-knowing, why disguise hmself as Tobi? Why would he act scared of Deidara when he could easily destroy Deidara? If they take orders from the AL and the AL takes orders from the RAL, I'd imagine that the RAL could easily destroy anyone is Akatsuki. Not to mention the fact that Pein has never lost a fight, and everyone that we know of has at least one loss. Even Kisame and Itachi took a loss from Jiriaya in part one. I'm not saying that Tobi isn't the RAL because that's impossible for me to know, but the chances if him being the RAL IMO are slim to none. It just doesn't make any sense, the RAL has no reason to hide behind a mask unless he would be afraid of being recognized by someone. And if you believe that Tobi = Obito = RAL, that would be even more crazy. Obito was alot weaker than Kakashi but now he's stronger than Itachi? Unlikely.

pcxxy
July 27, 2007, 07:23 PM
I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT! the right hole on Tobi's eye contains teh Sharingan! but it's weird how it got activated for nothing all of a sudden.

anyways, i'm eagerly awaiting the translated version ;)

Littlewig
July 27, 2007, 07:24 PM
On the last page, Tobi dissapears with just a little splash left. Does anyone know which techinque he could have used to disappear so quick?

gnash
July 27, 2007, 07:27 PM
I don't think Tobi = Obito, at most it's Madara using Obito's body somehow. Somewhere in the spoilers-thread I came across:


by Iwanin:
He says, kono Uchiha Madara no Chikara ga...! ... which is impossible to translate directly, but basically he's talking about himself like he's a big deal. Like "The power of the great me, Uchiha Madara."

Trust ole Iwa on this.

So it HAS to be Madara in some way or another.... but it's definitely NOT Obito himself... well, unless Obito is Uchiha Madara somehow. o_O



On the last page, Tobi dissapears with just a little splash left. Does anyone know which techinque he could have used to disappear so quick?

well, it doesn't have to be a jutsu, he could just have jumped away ... like everybody in Naruto does. Oo

Darrenj
July 27, 2007, 07:32 PM
looks like he has Asuma weapon in his hand, got to wonder why he is holding weapons

aimaimaim
July 27, 2007, 07:52 PM
is tobi really that masked guy with the sharingan????

is tobi really really really really obit0??

and as i have read thru out the manga.. i only heard the name "Madara" twice.. who is Madara? and what does he has t0 do with the kyuubi when the kyuubi saw sasuke's sharingan??

these are the things i want t0 see in the next chapters..

Hyuuga Hanabi
July 27, 2007, 08:01 PM
What's that thing about the "Naruto Version, Neji Version, Lee version" on the title pages. Were there different title pages in different copies of jump?

cinamax
July 27, 2007, 08:03 PM
It looks like Tobi's body is made of metal. He must have some ability to transform metal.

Mattias / Sweden
July 27, 2007, 08:06 PM
the leader is definitly pein, but the actual leader is Uchiha Madara. there is no actual profe that obito survived the accident. so it can´t be him, besides... he says:" the sharingans true power... my power... uchiha madara´s power..." why he speaks of himself in third person is because kishi wants the readers to know that tobi actually was madara, nothing else.

Hyuuga Hanabi
July 27, 2007, 08:08 PM
the leader is definitly pein, but the actual leader is Uchiha Madara. there is no actual profe that obito survived the accident. so it can´t be him, besides... he says:" the sharingans true power... my power... uchiha madara´s power..." why he speaks of himself in third person is because kishi wants the readers to know that tobi actually was madara, nothing else.

Please don't say things as fact when it's clearly a guess. :P

There is no proof that Tobi was referring to himself when he said "Madara," either.

cinamax
July 27, 2007, 08:15 PM
the leader is definitly pein, but the actual leader is Uchiha Madara. there is no actual profe that obito survived the accident. so it can´t be him, besides... he says:" the sharingans true power... my power... uchiha madara´s power..." why he speaks of himself in third person is because kishi wants the readers to know that tobi actually was madara, nothing else.

Quite true. Maybe Pain resurrected Madara secretly and put him in a body made of wood and metal. That mask is probably not a real mask but his actual skull. So from there is perfectly logical he gives orders to Pain who is a fanboi of him. Like Kabuto is a fanboi of Oro.

So gaining the bijuus is by order of Madara himself who wants to resurrect something or continue where he left off.

manga_freaky
July 27, 2007, 08:21 PM
Well basically a new theory about the whole sharingan awakening has surfaced at NF
-First Tomoe: To protect someone.
-Second Tomoe: To challenge someone.
-Third Tomoe: To defeat that person.
(And possibly...)
-Mangekyo: To lose them completely.

Taken those facts it makes perfect sense how Kakashi gained his MS and how it matches "killing your best friend".
So it's possible that Sasuke develop the MS. The fact that kakashi's MS differs from Itachi is because of his blood.
Btw a lot of ppl are going to die. I can't wait to see how kakashi die (we've already seen his best after kakuzu fight). Maybe some Jiraya jumping and sharing the same fate. Death.
Of course Naruto is going to be capture then brought with kakashi's MS implated. Omg did i just predict kakashi's death? But what i'm really excited about is Kakashi meeting up with sasuke. WOW.

exo15
July 27, 2007, 08:24 PM
i think! that Uchiha madara suvive the fight of the first hokage if im no mistaken.. and he's been planning his plzn since that day!.. i think Itachi's goal it to Kill THE REAL akatsuki leader Uchiha MAdara with the help of Sasuke!

Mattias / Sweden
July 27, 2007, 08:25 PM
Please don't say things as fact when it's clearly a guess. :P

There is no proof that Tobi was referring to himself when he said "Madara," either.


it´s not a guess. "tobi" is a sharingan user no doubt. and uchiha obito died in that accident. atleast, we have no proof that he survived. so either way he´s a fifth unknown uchiha member or he is madara

Hyuuga Hanabi
July 27, 2007, 08:29 PM
it´s not a guess. "tobi" is a sharingan user no doubt. and uchiha obito died in that accident. atleast, we have no proof that he survived. so either way he´s a fifth unknown uchiha member or he is madara

You're saying it's NOT possible he's Obito. Yet, on the same paragraph, you're saying he IS Madara. That's what I call "Thickheaded" speculation.

Mattias / Sweden
July 27, 2007, 08:34 PM
You're saying it's NOT possible he's Obito. Yet, on the same paragraph, you're saying he IS Madara. That's what I call "Thickheaded" speculation.


and that´s true, with the current facts it´s impossible for that man to be obito! maybe it was a bit to exaggurated to claim that he was madara, but why else would he speak that way? "the sharingans true power... my power... uchiha madara´s power." if he is obito kishi has to explain why he survived and so on.

lordHokage
July 27, 2007, 08:34 PM
Why does everyone keep saying that RAL = Tobi. Also, the RAL doesn't neccessarily have to be a Uchiha. Kakashi is a perfect example of this, he's not even a Uchiha but he was still able to obtain the MS sharingan. To add to that, Orochimaru wanted to unlock the true powers of the sharingan as well. Now granted, the RAL did know about the battle between Sasuke and Deidara and Tobi was the only other person there, but he also knew about the battle between Naruto and Kakuzu. If he's that powerful and all-knowing, why disguise hmself as Tobi? Why would he act scared of Deidara when he could easily destroy Deidara? If they take orders from the AL and the AL takes orders from the RAL, I'd imagine that the RAL could easily destroy anyone is Akatsuki. Not to mention the fact that Pein has never lost a fight, and everyone that we know of has at least one loss. Even Kisame and Itachi took a loss from Jiriaya in part one. I'm not saying that Tobi isn't the RAL because that's impossible for me to know, but the chances if him being the RAL IMO are slim to none. It just doesn't make any sense, the RAL has no reason to hide behind a mask unless he would be afraid of being recognized by someone. And if you believe that Tobi = Obito = RAL, that would be even more crazy. Obito was alot weaker than Kakashi but now he's stronger than Itachi? Unlikely.

Well said, I completely agree with you. Tobi = RAL theory, it possible, but I don’t see it. Tobi is very mysterious. Why does he wear an orange mask with swirl pattern? How could he be in two places at the same time? Who is this carefree and goofy guy aka good boy who is much like Naruto? :blink

Hyuuga Hanabi
July 27, 2007, 08:39 PM
and that´s true, with the current facts it´s impossible for that man to be obito! maybe it was a bit to exaggurated to claim that he was madara, but why else would he speak that way? "the sharingans true power... my power... uchiha madara´s power." if he is obito kishi has to explain why he survived and so on.

I'd go with Madara was either the first to fully evolve Sharingan into Mangekyou, or the first with the bloodline at all. There's a reason for the Mangekyou(Sharingan's "True power") to be "Madara's power" without having Tobi be him.

Or maybe it's something even Beyond Mangekyou.

Mattias / Sweden
July 27, 2007, 08:42 PM
I'd go with Madara was either the first to fully evolve Sharingan into Mangekyou, or the first with the bloodline at all. There's a reason for the Mangekyou(Sharingan's "True power") to be "Madara's power" without having Tobi be him.

so since you´re not believeing it is madara and you don´t have any proof that obito survived either. you meen there is a fifth sharingan user?

kazuma_uzumaki
July 27, 2007, 08:44 PM
wow one of the spoiler picture was actually accurate


I'm putting my bets on the tobi=obito thread

also he had said he had uchiha madara's power but doesnt nessicarily mean he is madara


maybe the same super sharingan or whatever madara

so hes comparing himself to him

Hyuuga Hanabi
July 27, 2007, 08:44 PM
so since you´re not believeing it is madara and you don´t have any proof that obito survived either. you meen there is a fifth sharingan user?

I'm saying anything is possible. He said 2 little lines before the revelation. I'm just asking you to not speculate as if you're speaking in facts. :P

Mattias / Sweden
July 27, 2007, 08:47 PM
I'm saying anything is possible. He said 2 little lines before the revelation. I'm just asking you to not speculate as if you're speaking in facts. :P

well with kishimoto as one of the creators, i have to agree that anything is possible ^^. well i do speculate with the facts i have, and that leads me to think it is madara or a unknown uchiha member. but as you said, anything is possible. hmm.. maybe i´m just thinking to much :P

Easley
July 27, 2007, 08:47 PM
People seem to be selecting the translation that supports their opinion, not the most accurate.

Several trans differ quite a bit from hisshouburaiken's - which has been used for most of the early scans - and these make it clear that Tobi is referring to himself.

Also, the 2chan guys are saying Tobi is Madara. That's good enough for me.

kazuma_uzumaki
July 27, 2007, 08:50 PM
wouldnt Tobi be too young for madara?

i mean madara fought the 1st hokage right?

Even if they were to use some special jutsu to transfer his spirit to a young body it doesnt mean he acts young

before this chapter where tobi acts super cool Tobi was always kind of stupid and clumsy

midiman
July 27, 2007, 08:52 PM
Hey guys i got a hint look here in the middle the panel with itachi

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/295/naruto364pg05gz5.png (http://imageshack.us)
Shot at 2007-07-27

See ? He says besides to the statment of kisame "the last uchiha" and that brought me to think of that Itachi most propably knew about tobi being an uchiha and that he meant tobi when he said a third MS user or Uchiha capable of MS

Mattias / Sweden
July 27, 2007, 08:53 PM
wouldnt Tobi be too young for madara?

i mean madara fought the 1st hokage right?

Even if they were to use some special jutsu to transfer his spirit to a young body it doesnt mean he acts young

before this chapter where tobi acts super cool Tobi was always kind of stupid and clumsy

who or what said that madara fought the 1st hokage??

maybe the reason for that is because the "leader" pein wants everyone else in Akatsuki not be aware of madara or whoever this man is.

kazuma_uzumaki
July 27, 2007, 08:55 PM
who or what said that madara fought the 1st hokage??

maybe the reason for that is because the "leader" pein wants everyone else in Akatsuki not be aware of madara or whoever this man is.

remember the fight between naruto and sasuke before the timeskip?


they fought on top of 1st hokage's and madara's statue

one opposite of eachother

Mattias / Sweden
July 27, 2007, 08:56 PM
remember the fight between naruto and sasuke before the timeskip?


they fought on top of 1st hokage's and madara's statue

one opposite of eachother

ofcourse i remember that fight.

how do you know it is the first hokage and madara´s statue?

Hyuuga Hanabi
July 27, 2007, 08:58 PM
I think the Tobi that fought alongside Deidara could've been one of those fake bodies, or he escaped in a similar way to how Sasuke escaped.

Mattias / Sweden
July 27, 2007, 08:59 PM
I think the Tobi that fought alongside Deidara could've been one of those fake bodies, or he escaped in a similar way to how Sasuke escaped.

exactly!

kazuma_uzumaki
July 27, 2007, 09:02 PM
ofcourse i remember that fight.

how do you know it is the first hokage and madara´s statue?

ask anyone else

and im pretty sure kakashi explained about it 1204724 chapters ago after the fight

Hyuuga Hanabi
July 27, 2007, 09:04 PM
ask anyone else

and im pretty sure kakashi explained about it 1204724 chapters ago after the fight


Madara was just mentioned for the second time. The first time was by Kyuubi.

kazuma_uzumaki
July 27, 2007, 09:04 PM
I think the Tobi that fought alongside Deidara could've been one of those fake bodies, or he escaped in a similar way to how Sasuke escaped.

probably

this time space thing jutsu seems like an uchiha thing

Neuroff
July 27, 2007, 09:04 PM
ask anyone else

and im pretty sure kakashi explained about it 1204724 chapters ago after the fight
Nobody says anything about Madara. Someone speculated that it was, then a bunch of people who don't know anything spread it around.

Mattias / Sweden
July 27, 2007, 09:04 PM
ask anyone else

and im pretty sure kakashi explained about it 1204724 chapters ago after the fight

it´s not what anyone else believes that matters. only facts do. kakashi hasn´t explained that the statues actually was madara and the first hokage. but the statue sure looks like the first hokage atleast. but that doesn´t proof anything

Hyuuga Hanabi
July 27, 2007, 09:04 PM
probably

this time space thing jutsu seems like an uchiha thing

Yondaime wasn't an Uchiha.

yoniekai
July 27, 2007, 09:05 PM
i havent felt excited about naruto for a long time now, but this is definitely teh OMG chapter!

kazuma_uzumaki
July 27, 2007, 09:08 PM
Yondaime wasn't an Uchiha.

talking about tobi


we wernt even talking about yondaime

how did that bring up

theshizzle
July 27, 2007, 09:08 PM
from wikipedia

Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:49, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Mattias / Sweden
July 27, 2007, 09:09 PM
talking about tobi


we wernt even talking about yondaime

how did that bring up

yondaime use the same or atleast a similar move that makes him fast. i believe it´s called "shunshun" movements?

Hyuuga Hanabi
July 27, 2007, 09:11 PM
talking about tobi


we wernt even talking about yondaime

how did that bring up

Check what I quoted.

kazuma_uzumaki
July 27, 2007, 09:12 PM
yondaime use the same or atleast a similar move that makes him fast. i believe it´s called "shunshun" movements?

i remember hearing something about that in bleach

but it made him fast

sasuke (according to the translations) used a space time demnsion jutsu


2 different things

Hyuuga Hanabi
July 27, 2007, 09:13 PM
Yondaime's Hiraishin is a time/space technique.

GPZrag
July 27, 2007, 09:20 PM
probably

this time space thing jutsu seems like an uchiha thing

DO NOT think so when they say ESPACE TIME JUTSU they refer to the Kuchiyose no Jutsu wich is an Espace Time Jutsu, Jiraiya told this to naruto when he taugh him that anywways it seems that tobi was indeed a kickass dude

kazuma_uzumaki
July 27, 2007, 09:31 PM
heres the episode with their fighting

the other statue sure as helll looks like an uchiha to me so it should be madara


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swPEkbZBrrQ
[hr]
one of the wierdest theories i've heard before about Tobi is that Tobi was Yamato

Salinador
July 27, 2007, 09:32 PM
i believe its also referred to as Shunsui. Regardless, both sasuke's and Yondaime's techniques are different, Sasuke's is a space/time teleportation technique. However, yondaime's is slightly different if you look closely through Kakashi' Gaiden arc. You'll notice that the Kunai he hands to Kakashi and the foot of the Shinboi he uses it on earlier on the arc both have a summoning script. Essentially, it alerts him to relative position of the target, and allows him to self-summon himself to that position, and also gives the appearance that he moved very quickly i.e. Konoha's Yellow Flash. Sasuke's technique is relatively different. All he did was summon Manda, use genjutsu, hop inside him, and unsummon, and then Suigetsu was able to summon them back using a scroll to re-summon manda. So albeit it is also technically a space/time technique it. Yondaime's is definetly on a completely different level than Sasuke, though i'm not holding to that statement since Sasuke had to do something quickly and with low amounts of chakra, whereas Yondaime was completely ready for it.

segua
July 27, 2007, 09:35 PM
from wikipedia

What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power."

Couldn't you also say, "Sharingan's true power...this/that is Uchiha Madara's power?" About the last part, you could also say, "...this, the power of Uchiha Madara."

Anyway, it seems that Tobi isn't referring to himself but to the power of his Sharingan; more accurately, the strength of his Sharingan. What is the strength of Uchiha Madara? It must link back to Kyuubi's comment to Sasuke.

Hyuuga Hanabi
July 27, 2007, 09:36 PM
heres the episode with their fighting

the other statue sure as helll looks like an uchiha to me so it should be madara


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swPEkbZBrrQ
<hr noshade size="1">
one of the wierdest theories i've heard before about Tobi is that Tobi was Yamato

The first himself looked alot like an Uchiha, that doesn't make him one.

kazuma_uzumaki
July 27, 2007, 09:38 PM
Couldn't you also say, "Sharingan's true power...this/that is Uchiha Madara's power?" About the last part, you could also say, "...this, the power of Uchiha Madara."

Anyway, it seems that Tobi isn't referring to himself but to the power of his Sharingan; more accurately, the strength of his Sharingan. What is the strength of Uchiha Madara? It must link back to Kyuubi's comment to Sasuke.

exactly what your saying

way to many people are suggestng that he's madara which is rather annoying
[hr]

The first himself looked alot like an Uchiha, that doesn't make him one.

not really


long black hair doesnt mean anything >_>

he doesnt have the front hair like evry other uchiha

thats why so many people thought karin was a long lost uchiha


because of the incrediable spikey hair

segua
July 27, 2007, 09:38 PM
Ah, I was also thinking that Kishimoto is trying to wrap up everything concerning Sasuke and the Sharingan. That is why he suddenly unveiled such shocking revelations.

Salinador
July 27, 2007, 09:39 PM
One more quick note, I've investigated the japanese/english translations myself and asked a few friends who are in the Masters dept of Japanese to look through the RAW and translate it accordingly. It seems that indeed that tobi did refer to himself when he said uchiha Mandara's power. Furthermore, I looked through my own archives of naruto manga, and found the aforementioned chapter at the end of the fight between Sasuke and Naruto. Albeit they mention those two(one of which is definetly the first hokage), it is never fully mentioned who the second person is, it is alluded to and is definetly plausible its Uchiha Mandara;however, alot of people have been editing the older versions of the manga to make it appear as though that name was stated...yet it wasnt in the original translations...this is much in the same as the debate on Yondaime's name and the refrence to the blood-pact scroll during naruto's first training with Jiraiya. I remind you to use caution when dealing with this topic as alot of people are basing their claims on altered images and speculative reports, which although seem incredible researched and detailed, still have no bearing lest we are provided so by the manga itself. Furthermore, for those who said Tobi=obito...Albeit, i wanted that to be true, I'm actually quite glad he's finally tying Uchiha Mandara in with the manga, and hopefully we'll finally get some real answers to his connection with Kyuubi.

Hyuuga Hanabi
July 27, 2007, 09:40 PM
i believe its also referred to as Shunsui. Regardless, both sasuke's and Yondaime's techniques are different, Sasuke's is a space/time teleportation technique. However, yondaime's is slightly different if you look closely through Kakashi' Gaiden arc. You'll notice that the Kunai he hands to Kakashi and the foot of the Shinboi he uses it on earlier on the arc both have a summoning script. Essentially, it alerts him to relative position of the target, and allows him to self-summon himself to that position, and also gives the appearance that he moved very quickly i.e. Konoha's Yellow Flash. Sasuke's technique is relatively different. All he did was summon Manda, use genjutsu, hop inside him, and unsummon, and then Suigetsu was able to summon them back using a scroll to re-summon manda. So albeit it is also technically a space/time technique it. Yondaime's is definetly on a completely different level than Sasuke, though i'm not holding to that statement since Sasuke had to do something quickly and with low amounts of chakra, whereas Yondaime was completely ready for it.

He was also able to create teleportation points by touch, according to the second databook.

kazuma_uzumaki
July 27, 2007, 09:41 PM
hopefully next chapter will clear some stuff up bout tobi D:

AxelCross
July 27, 2007, 09:44 PM
Wow, amazing chapter. Tobi (or should we start calling him Madara now?) is a total badass. I wonder why he's setting up Itachi to think that Sasuke is dead, and why he even cares about Sasuke being alive or dead, what does he want with Sasuke? Either way, it's clear that Itachi knows his brother is alive. Also, is it just me, or have these past three or four chapters brought out a new Itachi? I've seen...emotion in those eyes of his, sorrow for his brother when he first heard the words "dead", then even more emotion when Itachi turned to Kisame in this chapter and said "No, he's not dead...", something is different.

I don't know what it is, but it's different. It's as if the only thing Itachi wants anymore is for his brother to strive on and live to fight him, but then again, maybe there is an evil intention beyond that brotherly love? I'm not sure, it's impossible to predict what Itachi is thinking or what his motives are, but he's been showing a lot of emotion lately. I'm still dumbfounded with what Tobi/Madara wants with Sasuke, I'm thinking that he himself might want Itachi to battle with Sasuke, then again, why would he let Pain tell Itachi that his brother was dead in the first place? I'm not sure at all.

Sounds like Naruto and Sasuke will meet up again soon, I'm thinking next chapter since it's a double chapter, Kishimoto is probably dropping all these bombs on us to let us discuss it all over the one week break. Anyway, that will be interesting, because Sasuke too has been showing more emotion than usual, it makes me think he acted all emotionless and cold just to persuade Orochimaru that he was true and was with him. Now that he has Suigetsu, Karin and Juugo, he seems to be happier, wanting more, things of that sort. I'm really interested to see how he reacts when he sees Naruto, will he give him the cold shoulder like last time, or will he embrace him as a brother?

We'll see, things are really, really coming together in the Naruto world. I don't think Kishimoto is rushing it, but it does look like he wants his series to get moving again, considering for a while it was in a rut and, while progressing, was clawing at the walls. Now, jeez, it's out of that rut and taking full strides, which is great. Tobi being Madara, Itachi knowing his brother is alive, Naruto and Sasuke meeting (check out that badass cover page!), find out where Itachi is due to Kiba's amazing nose, the secret of Madara's/Tobi's Sharingan, things are getting complicated again! :p :o

lentharius
July 27, 2007, 09:49 PM
Ok I'll say what I've been saying for awhile, the reason the translations are saying he is Madara even tho a STRICT translation says otherwise is as follows from what I have read: He is using a term that villains often use in manga to refer to themselves in third person. However I think maybe Kishimoto did this on purpose to keep us guessing for a week as to whether he was referring to himself in third person or whether he just has Madara's power in some way.

I do believe he is Madara because to me it just makes sense, and the fact that the majority of the mainstream translators say he is. But maybe it'll turn out to be another reason, we won't know for sure until the future but for now I stand by our professional translators.

kazuma_uzumaki
July 27, 2007, 09:51 PM
Wow, amazing chapter. Tobi (or should we start calling him Madara now?) is a total badass. I wonder why he's setting up Itachi to think that Sasuke is dead, and why he even cares about Sasuke being alive or dead, what does he want with Sasuke? Either way, it's clear that Itachi knows his brother is alive. Also, is it just me, or have these past three or four chapters brought out a new Itachi? I've seen...emotion in those eyes of his, sorrow for his brother when he first heard the words "dead", then even more emotion when Itachi turned to Kisame in this chapter and said "No, he's not dead...", something is different.

I don't know what it is, but it's different. It's as if the only thing Itachi wants anymore is for his brother to strive on and live to fight him, but then again, maybe there is an evil intention beyond that brotherly love? I'm not sure, it's impossible to predict what Itachi is thinking or what his motives are, but he's been showing a lot of emotion lately. I'm still dumbfounded with what Tobi/Madara wants with Sasuke, I'm thinking that he himself might want Itachi to battle with Sasuke, then again, why would he let Pain tell Itachi that his brother was dead in the first place? I'm not sure at all.

Sounds like Naruto and Sasuke will meet up again soon, I'm thinking next chapter since it's a double chapter, Kishimoto is probably dropping all these bombs on us to let us discuss it all over the one week break. Anyway, that will be interesting, because Sasuke too has been showing more emotion than usual, it makes me think he acted all emotionless and cold just to persuade Orochimaru that he was true and was with him. Now that he has Suigetsu, Karin and Juugo, he seems to be happier, wanting more, things of that sort. I'm really interested to see how he reacts when he sees Naruto, will he give him the cold shoulder like last time, or will he embrace him as a brother?

We'll see, things are really, really coming together in the Naruto world. I don't think Kishimoto is rushing it, but it does look like he wants his series to get moving again, considering for a while it was in a rut and, while progressing, was clawing at the walls. Now, jeez, it's out of that rut and taking full strides, which is great. Tobi being Madara, Itachi knowing his brother is alive, Naruto and Sasuke meeting (check out that badass cover page!), find out where Itachi is due to Kiba's amazing nose, the secret of Madara's/Tobi's Sharingan, things are getting complicated again! :p :o
i agree with what your thinking but according to other translators tobi is refering to his sharingan to be like madara

doesnt exactly mean he is madara

and i agree with the whole emotion thing

maybe since in the story sasuke is way close to meeting itachi and one will have to kill the other and if itachi dies.. well sasuke really has no reason to live( cpet go emo) and if sasuke dies then itachi doesnt have anyone to look foward to.. err kill? D;
[hr]

Ok I'll say what I've been saying for awhile, the reason the translations are saying he is Madara even tho a STRICT translation says otherwise is as follows from what I have read: He is using a term that villains often use in manga to refer to themselves in third person. However I think maybe Kishimoto did this on purpose to keep us guessing for a week as to whether he was referring to himself in third person or whether he just has Madara's power in some way.

I do believe he is Madara because to me it just makes sense, and the fact that the majority of the mainstream translators say he is. But maybe it'll turn out to be another reason, we won't know for sure until the future but for now I stand by our professional translators.

actually most mainstream translators i know says he's refering to the power


sort of like when Kyubi said to sasuke something about resembling madara

but i see where you're getting at

sometimes tobi does refer himself in 3rd person

AxelCross
July 27, 2007, 09:57 PM
i agree with what your thinking but according to other translators tobi is refering to his sharingan to be like madara

doesnt exactly mean he is madara

and i agree with the whole emotion thing

maybe since in the story sasuke is way close to meeting itachi and one will have to kill the other and if itachi dies.. well sasuke really has no reason to live( cpet go emo) and if sasuke dies then itachi doesnt have anyone to look foward to.. err kill? D;

I know, I say this simply because, if I said just "Tobi" someone else opposite of your standpoint would say the exact opposite, something like "But it said he WAS Madara!!!". I'm neutral, I don't know what to think, there are so many different opinions with translators, it's divided between "He's referring to himself as most cliched villains do" or "He's just referring to the power", so I don't know, I was just throwing that in there.

As for the last comment, that might be the case, it might be just that. I mean, it does make sense, because each one has been living solely for this, Sasuke striving for this, getting stronger just for this, dedicating his life to this, throwing everything he has away for this fight. Just as Sasuke did, Itachi has been hoping his brother doesn't die, waiting for him while simultaneously passing the time with Akatsuki, worrying if his brother will live to fight him or not one day, and if he'll be good enough to be a rival.

Then, once that's over, they'll have to find another reason to live, both of them would, for a moment, have nothing to live for. So yes, that's a good thought on that. I'm now questioning if Itachi truly wants Sasuke to be strong to fight Itachi, or if Itachi wants Sasuke to get up to Itachi's level, but then ask Sasuke to help him in aiding him to fight someone, possibly Tobi, or someone else. I'm just not sure on Itachi's intentions anymore. It would make sense to me for Sasuke to get to Itachi, they fight a bit, then before the final blow, Itachi says something like "You've reached my level, good..." then explains why he really wanted Sasuke to become strong. That might be going a little too far, but I just don't know, with things getting really complicated now, it wouldn't surprise me if something like that happened.

kazuma_uzumaki
July 27, 2007, 10:01 PM
I know, I say this simply because, if I said just "Tobi" someone else opposite of your standpoint would say the exact opposite, something like "But it said he WAS Madara!!!". I'm neutral, I don't know what to think, there are so many different opinions with translators, it's divided between "He's referring to himself as most cliched villains do" or "He's just referring to the power", so I don't know, I was just throwing that in there.

As for the last comment, that might be the case, it might be just that. I mean, it does make sense, because each one has been living solely for this, Sasuke striving for this, getting stronger just for this, dedicating his life to this, throwing everything he has away for this fight. Just as Sasuke did, Itachi has been hoping his brother doesn't die, waiting for him while simultaneously passing the time with Akatsuki, worrying if his brother will live to fight him or not one day, and if he'll be good enough to be a rival.

Then, once that's over, they'll have to find another reason to live, both of them would, for a moment, have nothing to live for. So yes, that's a good thought on that. I'm now questioning if Itachi truly wants Sasuke to be strong to fight Itachi, or if Itachi wants Sasuke to get up to Itachi's level, but then ask Sasuke to help him in aiding him to fight someone, possibly Tobi, or someone else. I'm just not sure on Itachi's intentions anymore. It would make sense to me for Sasuke to get to Itachi, they fight a bit, then before the final blow, Itachi says something like "You've reached my level, good..." then explains why he really wanted Sasuke to become strong. That might be going a little too far, but I just don't know, with things getting really complicated now, it wouldn't surprise me if something like that happened.
i really doubt that if they were to meet sasuke dies

if that were to happen then kishimoto is gonna have a lotta hatemail from fangirls(probably enough for kill deidara)
and even if Itachi wanted sasuke to be strong i think killing your whole clan is a bit much

i mean maybe a tiny massacre but yeah you get my point(right>)

Double Helix-7
July 27, 2007, 10:04 PM
Wow, amazing chapter. Tobi (or should we start calling him Madara now?) is a total badass. I wonder why he's setting up Itachi to think that Sasuke is dead, and why he even cares about Sasuke being alive or dead, what does he want with Sasuke? Either way, it's clear that Itachi knows his brother is alive. Also, is it just me, or have these past three or four chapters brought out a new Itachi? I've seen...emotion in those eyes of his, sorrow for his brother when he first heard the words "dead", then even more emotion when Itachi turned to Kisame in this chapter and said "No, he's not dead...", something is different.

I don't know what it is, but it's different. It's as if the only thing Itachi wants anymore is for his brother to strive on and live to fight him, but then again, maybe there is an evil intention beyond that brotherly love? I'm not sure, it's impossible to predict what Itachi is thinking or what his motives are, but he's been showing a lot of emotion lately. I'm still dumbfounded with what Tobi/Madara wants with Sasuke, I'm thinking that he himself might want Itachi to battle with Sasuke, then again, why would he let Pain tell Itachi that his brother was dead in the first place? I'm not sure at all.


Heh. Exactly what I thought! I've thought for a long, long time now that Itachi killing and eliminating the clan, with the exception for his little brother, was merely more than just to test his container/capability. There must be something deeper than that...Anyone normal being wouldn't just kill his whole clan. And the fact that he knew there was another MS user out there could link to Tobi/Madara. And if so, Itachi would have known since joining the Akatsuki who really is the leader. Maybe I'm wrong, but like Axel said...there's something different with Itachi. He's always silent when Sasuke's name surfaced in a conversation. And especially when Zetsu mentioned his death. He was concerned, in my opinion. Normally he doesn't speak much, I would say, but after Zetsu mentioned Deidara's defeat Itachi asked the question...I don't think Itachi is evil in his nature.


I still think it's somewhat ridiculous a think for Kishi to do to make Tobi Uchiha Madara >_> I know it's his manga, he can do whatever he wants to do. I just can't seem to put "Tobi" and "Madara" as the same person. Hopefully, some of you are right that Tobi was only mentioned Madara's power...not that he is actually Madara...<__< I think many fans are going to go crazy because of this chapter :p


Team Hebi...I'm slowly grown to like this team. Hopefully we'll see the reunion in the next chapter :eyeroll Can't wait to see Naruto's reaction, and Sakura's reaction after finding out Hebi. It'd be funny LOL

MercX
July 27, 2007, 10:05 PM
HOLY SHIT!!
Tobi is Uchia
WTF!?!?!
to many questions
like why didnt itachi kill tobi
or where was he during his killing spree
or did he teach him how to gah
plz have all this explained soon no filler

lentharius
July 27, 2007, 10:28 PM
I know, I say this simply because, if I said just "Tobi" someone else opposite of your standpoint would say the exact opposite, something like "But it said he WAS Madara!!!". I'm neutral, I don't know what to think, there are so many different opinions with translators, it's divided between "He's referring to himself as most cliched villains do" or "He's just referring to the power", so I don't know, I was just throwing that in there.

I'm only leaning towards him being Madara 60% at this point. I really do think Kishimoto was being purposely vague here. But to the poster above yours I've read like 5 translations of the chapter and only 1 didn't say he was Madara.

segua
July 27, 2007, 10:46 PM
Personally, I think Itachi has ulterior motives for Sasuke. What they are I don't know but it could be connected to the Uchiha clan massacre. When I start thinking about Itachi's past actions, it is questionable. He had the chance to kill Kurenai but didn't. He had the chance to kill Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai before Gai showed up but didn't. He also had the chance the quickly nap Naruto but stalled. Kisame and Itachi could've taken on Jiraiya but they ran away instead.

About the Uchiha clan massacre, Itachi could've manipulated the entire incident to make it seemed as if he was the one the committed the atrocity to Sasuke. This could be easily done with genjutsu which Itachi excelled at. I think that for Sasuke's sake and safety, Itachi purposely gave Sasuke that obsessive desire to kill Itachi so that Sasuke would definitely grow stronger. I'm sure Itachi was quite aware of Sasuke's desire to become like him. Sasuke basically idolized Itachi. Itachi could've used this to Sasuke's advantage.

Now one important detail, why did Itachi yell out to Sasuke not to enter the room where their dead parents were? From what I assume, Itachi might has just returned from his secret mission a little bit before Sasuke to also find the whole entire clan dead. He was probably surveying the surrounding when Sasuke showed up. Another interesting detail is that everything about that incident comes from the public report and from Sasuke's perspective. From the public report, I mean that whenever the incident is talked about, Itachi is always the bad guy.

Also, what if the person who was actually responsible for the Uchiha massacre wanted to exterminate all Uchiha members, but at that time, Itachi and Sasuke were away. Now if it was Tobi, I could understand why. Recall what Kakashi said about defeating the Sharingan? Only another Sharingan user could defeat another Sharingan user. So that means that there are two people out there that has the potential to defeat Tobi: Itachi and Sasuke. Kakashi is just an exception. Though this is just all pure speculation.

AngelMayLaugh
July 27, 2007, 10:51 PM
I'm starting to not like Naruto(The manga in general). The Sharingan is sought(Sp?) after and talked about too much. That's why I love it when Sharingan users*cough*Sasuke*cough* get their asses kicked.


Anyways, did anyone noticed tose two blades Tobi has in his hands? They look badass.

Double Helix-7
July 27, 2007, 10:57 PM
Personally, I think Itachi has ulterior motives for Sasuke. What they are I don't know but it could be connected to the Uchiha clan massacre. When I start thinking about Itachi's past actions, it is questionable. He had the chance to kill Kurenai but didn't. He had the chance to kill Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai before Gai showed up but didn't. He also had the chance the quickly nap Naruto but stalled. Kisame and Itachi could've taken on Jiraiya but they ran away instead.

About the Uchiha clan massacre, Itachi could've manipulated the entire incident to make it seemed as if he was the one the committed the atrocity to Sasuke. This could be easily done with genjutsu which Itachi excelled at. I think that for Sasuke's sake and safety, Itachi purposely gave Sasuke that obsessive desire to kill Itachi so that Sasuke would definitely grow stronger. I'm sure Itachi was quite aware of Sasuke's desire to become like him. Sasuke basically idolized Itachi. Itachi could've used this to Sasuke's advantage.

Now one important detail, why did Itachi yell out to Sasuke not to enter the room where their dead parents were? From what I assume, Itachi might has just returned from his secret mission a little bit before Sasuke to also find the whole entire clan dead. He was probably surveying the surrounding when Sasuke showed up. Another interesting detail is that everything about that incident comes from the public report and from Sasuke's perspective. From the public report, I mean that whenever the incident is talked about, Itachi is always the bad guy.

Also, what if the person who was actually responsible for the Uchiha massacre wanted to exterminate all Uchiha members, but at that time, Itachi and Sasuke were away. Now if it was Tobi, I could understand why. Recall what Kakashi said about defeating the Sharingan? Only another Sharingan user could defeat another Sharingan user. So that means that there are two people out there that has the potential to defeat Tobi: Itachi and Sasuke. Kakashi is just an exception. Though this is just all pure speculation.


Totally makes sense. Although I don't remember Itachi yelling to Sasuke not to enter their parents' room. He even put Sasuke through the scene again of watching that horrid scene. I don't believe Itachi to be a very cruel person ...And his relationship with Sasake before the massacre seems more real. Anyway...if this was true, I don't think Sasuke will believe Itachi. The massacre put so much on Sasuke mentally - he sets his heart just to kill his brother - and then told otherwise that Itachi wasn't the one who slaugtered the clan...would just make Sasuke even more angry o__O He's hard headed.

SacredNic
July 27, 2007, 11:00 PM
Wow... more interesting revelations come outta this one...
Who'd of thought that Tobi is the real mastermind behind
the Akatsuki?? Let alone the infamous Uchiha Madara!!


And it's about time Naruto was taken seriously by the bad
guys for once. Up til now everyone has underestimated or
shown very little interest in his abilities... and now Paine's
been given the task to handle him personally (as though
Itachi wasn't strong enough???)


So I guess it means the end of Tobi's comical antics....
awwwwwww maaaaaaaaan :tem

AxelCross
July 27, 2007, 11:03 PM
Wow... more interesting revelations come outta this one...
Who'd of thought that Tobi is the real mastermind behind
the Akatsuki?? Let alone the infamous Uchiha Madara!!


And it's about time Naruto was taken seriously by the bad
guys for once. Up til now everyone has underestimated or
shown very little interest in his abilities... and now Paine's
been given the task to handle him personally (as though
Itachi wasn't strong enough???)


So I guess it means the end of Tobi's comical antics....
awwwwwww maaaaaaaaan :tem

I don't think it's that Akatsuki don't think Itachi is strong enough, I don't think Tobi trusts Itachi one bit, I also think that Tobi knows Itachi knows he is a Sharingan user, as I'm sure Itachi was referring to Tobi when he mentioned the third user. I also think that, above all, Pain is the strongest in the organization, save for Tobi, whom we know absolutely nothing about right now, the things we do know about him just spark more questions.

So I think it's just that Tobi himself trusts Pain will get the job done.

Ukun
July 27, 2007, 11:38 PM
Totally makes sense. Although I don't remember Itachi yelling to Sasuke not to enter their parents' room. He even put Sasuke through the scene again of watching that horrid scene. I don't believe Itachi to be a very cruel person ...And his relationship with Sasake before the massacre seems more real. Anyway...if this was true, I don't think Sasuke will believe Itachi. The massacre put so much on Sasuke mentally - he sets his heart just to kill his brother - and then told otherwise that Itachi wasn't the one who slaugtered the clan...would just make Sasuke even more angry o__O He's hard headed.

Going along with the thought that Itachi is in fact good, it could be that like Seguna said, Itachi came back from a mission to find the clan demolished, and he had his suspicions as to who did it, that person being Tobi aka Uchiha Madara. He may have actually led Sasuke to believe that he was the one who killed him so that he would become more powerful. As to why, I'm getting to this. He needed everyone to believe that he killed the clan so he could join Akatsuki and not be suspected of anything because he knew that Tobi was associated with them in some way or another. There were possibly two reasons for convincing Sasuke that he killed the clan: 1) to spur him to get much stronger so that he could either help him kill Madara/Tobi or to get him to kill Itachi so he can gain a stronger Mangekyou which he can then use to kill Madara/Tobi, and 2) So Sasuke could testify to Itachi killing the clan, giving further evidence that he did it so he could be 'trusted' in Akatsuki. Of course Tobi doesn't trust him because he knows he(Itachi) didn't kill the clan but that it was in fact him(Tobi), because maybe he thought they may be able to hinder his plans in some way, since Sasuke was able to quell the Kyuubi inside of Naruto.

But I may just be ranting. >>

Saifi
July 28, 2007, 12:09 AM
well ill throw my 2 cents in

i think tobi is madara !

i also think the true power of sharingan is to manipulate reality (in any way) hence its time space warping ability , which means that pein could very well be from the future ! (i know its fresh) esp since he says that when all their goals are achieved everything will be as it should be ! meaning (again my opinion/speculation) that something happened that changed the time line and reality itself and pein wants to fix that ! the city they are in looks kind of post apocaliptic too . And why is pain sad that the heavens are crying for him ?

anyway hope i gave you some food for thought besides wheather tobi is obito ! i like the theory but it might be hard now cause i beleave obito and madara to be 2 different people

anyway saifi out !

Askia32
July 28, 2007, 12:20 AM
I have always said that I don't think Itachi really killed his whole village, or at least from his own will. At first it was a far fetched hunch, but now I think it's becoming more and more obvious. I think Itachi came after the clan was slaughtered, and played the role that he did it so Sasuke would be scared. I think since than, Itachi has been trying to get Sasuke to get to a certain level to be able to defeat this new Uchiha. Ive also noticed that when Itachi came back to Konoha, talked to the Jounins with more respect than he gives to the other members in Akatsuki.

The only other conclusion I can think of, is that the RAL threatened Itachi that he would kill his brother if he didn't kill his clan. And that is still something that RAL hanges over Itachi. Itachi has to do his biding, or he will kill Sasuke.

fremeer
July 28, 2007, 12:27 AM
tobi isnt uchiha madara he just has the sharingan/MS

strongarm85
July 28, 2007, 12:44 AM
Going along with the thought that Itachi is in fact good, it could be that like Seguna said, Itachi came back from a mission to find the clan demolished, and he had his suspicions as to who did it, that person being Tobi aka Uchiha Madara. He may have actually led Sasuke to believe that he was the one who killed him so that he would become more powerful. As to why, I'm getting to this. He needed everyone to believe that he killed the clan so he could join Akatsuki and not be suspected of anything because he knew that Tobi was associated with them in some way or another. There were possibly two reasons for convincing Sasuke that he killed the clan: 1) to spur him to get much stronger so that he could either help him kill Madara/Tobi or to get him to kill Itachi so he can gain a stronger Mangekyou which he can then use to kill Madara/Tobi, and 2) So Sasuke could testify to Itachi killing the clan, giving further evidence that he did it so he could be 'trusted' in Akatsuki. Of course Tobi doesn't trust him because he knows he(Itachi) didn't kill the clan but that it was in fact him(Tobi), because maybe he thought they may be able to hinder his plans in some way, since Sasuke was able to quell the Kyuubi inside of Naruto.

But I may just be ranting. >>

The only problem I see with this the the Akatsuki meeting that took place just before the time skip where somebody said that it was the first time they'd all met like that in 10 years. By the time Itachi killed his clan would have already been a member of Akasuki for a couple of years.

Decorus
July 28, 2007, 12:47 AM
Sadly according to the translation he is Madara, who we have only heard about from Kyuubi everything else people have posted about him is baseless speculation.

Here is what we know based on facts:
1. Tobi is claiming to be Madara by doing the cool villian 3rd person reference.
2. Tobi has sharingan.
3. Uchiha have more cursed chakra then Kyuubi (That is dark evil malevolant not stronger)
4. The only person Kyuubi knows whose eyes are as strong as Sasuke's are Madara's.
5. Some point before Kyuubi was sealed he met Madara.

For all we know the sharingan is a fake and Tobi is using a cool genjutsu to pretend to be Uchiha Madara.

Now someone might speculate that Itachi met Tobi, and Tobi explained to him how to gain MS and told him the location of the scroll containing the original purpose of the Sharingan. When Itachi read the scroll he killed his best friend and then slaughtered his Clan and set up his brother to reach his true potential. And then Joined Tobi in the Akatsuki.

jmitchell
July 28, 2007, 01:14 AM
Food for thought:
Look back at some of the most powerful jutsu that the Akatsuki used:
1. using anothers body to mimic anothers powers exactly (Itachi and Kisame)
2. When Team Konoha ripped off the seals around the cave that they killed Gaara in, there was a jutsu that created a fighter with the exact same powers as the people that ripped the seals off.

So maybe the AL is not a true Uchiha, but is merely using a jutsu to mimic the Sharingan and master all of the abilities that it has.

Koolaid1
July 28, 2007, 01:28 AM
Ok, this just proves that Tobi can not be Obito.

Obito had his right side completely crushed, and then gave his left eye to Kakashi, which means that even if he was somehow saved, or survived, then he would have no Sharingan(or eyes for that matter). Since Tobi is shown with the Sharingan, I think he is indeed Madara.

Also, like I said in a much earlier post. I think Tobi was indeed just using that same Jutsu that Itachi and Kisame used to slow down Team Gai and Kakashi.

That is how he was able to know how far along Sasuke has come.

Waru
July 28, 2007, 01:38 AM
Ok, this just proves that Tobi can not be Obito.

Obito had his right side completely crushed, and then gave his left eye to Kakashi, which means that even if he was somehow saved, or survived, then he would have no Sharingan(or eyes for that matter). Since Tobi is shown with the Sharingan, I think he is indeed Madara.

Also, like I said in a much earlier post. I think Tobi was indeed just using that same Jutsu that Itachi and Kisame used to slow down Team Gai and Kakashi.

That is how he was able to know how far along Sasuke has come.

Would also explain why Sasuke's sword didnt hurt him also how he got away from the explosion, and how there was no evidence of him being there since the explosion most likely destroyed the host body for the jutsu. Will just have to wait and see if Kishimoto will explain it or just move on. I bet its the latter though :notrust

stevecho88
July 28, 2007, 01:54 AM
I don't think Tobi is saying he 'is' Uchiha Madara.

The translation
Tobi: "The Sharingan's true power...I, Uchiha Madara's power."
is not really correct.

このうちはまだらの力が (konouchihamadaranochikaraga) is the last sentence.

この (kono) does not mean "I". It's hard to explain in english, but it roughly translates into 'this'.

I'd translate it as "this Uchiha Madara's power.."

The translation in other scanlation seems to be also more adequate, which says
"My Power... Uchiha Madara's Power"


Obviously, Tobi is not Uchiha Madara. He's saying that his true power of sharingan is descended from Uchiha Madara. (In other words, directly related to Madara)

Btw, he would not call himself "Uchiha Madara" in third person, if he were really Uchiha Madara. Did you ever see any character in Naruto using his name when he is describing his power? Will Itachi ever say "This is I, Uchiha Itachi's, Powerr"? It just sounds so silly. hahaha

shachi
July 28, 2007, 01:55 AM
Tobi's last lines are vague. He doesn't explicity state that he is UM. Here are 2 possible interpretations:

1) He lists 3 elements that are necessary to bring about his ambitions: the sharingan's true power, [combined with] his power, [combined with]UM's powers.

or

2) He is identifying his powers, i.e. the sharingan's true powers [are] his powers [are] UM's powers.

myth0logy
July 28, 2007, 02:03 AM
Tobi could've found and killed Madara, and used a similar jutsu that gave Kakashi his eye to get himself a nice sharingan.

it could explain why he only has one eye shown, and he could probably change his mask to show either his left, right, or some funky mask when he reveals both eyes at once :P

Koolaid1
July 28, 2007, 02:03 AM
Well, whatever the case may happen to be, this manga just took one heck of a great turn.

I mean, it will be really interesting to see some of the upcoming stuff.

Hopeful things to come:

1. Hebi vs. Naruto's team

2. The new abilities of Kiba/Akumaru, Hinata, and Shino

3. More of the Akatsuki mysteries revealed(next time, on Naruto) :)

segua
July 28, 2007, 02:03 AM
I agree with omnilord's a.k.a. Tokyogodfather from the forums at Naruto Manga Returns that Kishimoto purposely left the whole "Kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga" ambiguous. I agree with him that both ways are correct. Meaning Kishi is teasing the fans or in my opinion.

Reaver Reload
July 28, 2007, 03:28 AM
Tobi is such a good boy <3


Going along with the thought that Itachi is in fact good, it could be that like Seguna said, Itachi came back from a mission to find the clan demolished, and he had his suspicions as to who did it, that person being Tobi aka Uchiha Madara. He may have actually led Sasuke to believe that he was the one who killed him so that he would become more powerful. As to why, I'm getting to this. He needed everyone to believe that he killed the clan so he could join Akatsuki and not be suspected of anything because he knew that Tobi was associated with them in some way or another. There were possibly two reasons for convincing Sasuke that he killed the clan: 1) to spur him to get much stronger so that he could either help him kill Madara/Tobi or to get him to kill Itachi so he can gain a stronger Mangekyou which he can then use to kill Madara/Tobi, and 2) So Sasuke could testify to Itachi killing the clan, giving further evidence that he did it so he could be 'trusted' in Akatsuki. Of course Tobi doesn't trust him because he knows he(Itachi) didn't kill the clan but that it was in fact him(Tobi), because maybe he thought they may be able to hinder his plans in some way, since Sasuke was able to quell the Kyuubi inside of Naruto.

But I may just be ranting. >>

I totally agree with you, this has always been at the back of my mind for ages. Itachi's got an ulterior motive that not many are aware of, and he was shown as such a loving character during the Sasuke flashback. He always cared for his brother and stopped himself from doing acts that would hurt Sasuke's feelings. So when he did the whole clan-killing betrayal, I always thought that he was simply MS'ing Sasuke from the get-go when Sasuke saw his figure above the telephone pole. They showed Itachi's tough love for his brother for a reason.

As for Tobi, a number of scenarios present themselves due to the shadowed nature of the translation:

1. He's Uchiha Madara, simply put, simply stated. Kyuubi knows him, so he's either ancient and/or immortal.

2. He's Obito who has "achieved the power of Uchiha Madara." Obito lost his left eye to Kakashi, and Tobi has covered up his left eye and only exposes his right. Tenzou was known as Yamato for ages, and still is... so it could explain the Madara alias. It would also explain why he has the mask to hide his slightly disfigured face. Why else would a Sharingan user cover up his other eye, a waste of a perfectly good Sharingan hax. Which brings me to my next point:

3. He's a ninja like Kakashi who has had the very eye of Madara transplanted into himself. Which also gives reason to the immortal and ancient character theory, as Kyuubi himself knows him. Remember that Naruto is about 16 now, so Tobi could very well be as young as 26 or as ancient as Kakuzu...

Remember that if he is who we think he is, he hails from Konoha and he is the mastermind behind the whole Akatsuki scheme of things and as a result, the World Domination crap could very well be just a simple ruse to keep the other members happy while Tobi is bent on achieving other means - Tengu King theory, anybody? I gotta say ever since Auvie exposed me to it I've been a devoted follower since. However, I like to keep my mind open and I'm quite fond of any other theory that presents itself, simply because any theory is a good theory with enough evidence.

jhotboy68
July 28, 2007, 03:44 AM
Dammn just like a lot of poeple here predicted The one in the shadows was Toby. But do you guys still think that Tobi is Obito and maybe it was his plan from the beginning to fake his death to achieve his goals. (loosing an eye wasen't part of the plan)Or maybe he heard about the Uchiha Madara storie after he was found badly injured and was helped by somone unknown or something like that. This is starting to get realy intresting.

Koolaid1
July 28, 2007, 03:47 AM
One quick thing Reaver Reload. Based on what you said about Tobi being Obito, you missed one thing, which I have said multiple times now, Obito had his right side crushed.

Even if he had survived, Kakashi has his left eye, and I would say he probably doesn't have much of a right eye after the whole boulder falling on his head thing...

I hate to say this people, but get over the whole Tobi is Obito thing, he isn't. There is no way he could be.

I liked that theory as much as the next person, but it is time to let it go.

It is either of the other two reasons Reaver mentioned.

ArashiKazamaThe4th
July 28, 2007, 04:04 AM
Quite good chapter :) and its really fine to know that tobi is obito with his on eyed sharingan (three swhirls) but is itachi really crying or does it likes so?

walkie
July 28, 2007, 04:06 AM
Tobi didnt die guys comee oonn..the one appeared at the end, the one talking to leader, is tobi himself

ehehe, finally i predicted something truely and directly :D

OhDearMoshe
July 28, 2007, 04:41 AM
Dammn just like a lot of poeple here predicted The one in the shadows was Toby. But do you guys still think that Tobi is Obito and maybe it was his plan from the beginning to fake his death to achieve his goals. (loosing an eye wasen't part of the plan)Or maybe he heard about the Uchiha Madara storie after he was found badly injured and was helped by somone unknown or something like that. This is starting to get realy intresting.

That makes no sense. Obito was a very average ninja and he Told Rin and Kakashi to take the eye. So yeah re read Kakashi Gaiden and then comment upon!

As for the half of his head being crushed and all. Yeah that6 pretty much says a lot, but its not to say it couldn't be fixed!

juUnior
July 28, 2007, 04:48 AM
I agree with you Reaver and Ukun ^^

Also, about Itachi, why would Kisame say that he shed tears or was crying? For fun? Actually I think at that moment, Itachi truly was, maybe not crying, but some teras grasp his eyes, and thats why he went on rain to let Kisame didnt see it. For me it's even more suspicious on the aspect of Itachi and his "supposed" killing entire clan ^^

But on the other hand, it seems, that nobody knew from the Akastuki, that Tobi = True Leader of Aka, mastermind, whatever. Even Itachi or anybody else, even Zetsu. Why? It's obvious. Even points made by Reaver about Tobi and mask, we can add:
- he is known third user of sharingan, or more accurately MS (including Sasuke) which was told by Itachi, so he knew him, but:
- Tobi wears mask and was behaving like some stupid man to onlyu not be recognized by not only memebrs, but more by Itachi himself ^^
Thta's another reaseon why he has mask. So there are plenty of possibilities ;p
And also: Zetsu. Yes, he told everyone that Tobi is dead, and Pein told everyone that he can be replaced by anyone so: Pein and Blue Hair knew from the begining who is TObi, and only they. And now Zetsu told that Tobi is dead and True Leader can be now in the shadows again :x

I like also how it was answered how he knew the result of the fight Dei vs Saske. Everyone could imagine that he has uber cool jutsu, or were there and... actually he was there xDxD

Color cover page is cool, I like it a lot xD

Juugo going berserk is a nice touch, actually I was thinking after him joining Hebi, if Kishi will show something like this, a little of Juugo maniac, and it's here, it's more realistic that way. But Saske using sharingan gives me idea, that if Sasuke woudnt have sharingan, than he would not control Juugo :x

All in all, cool chapter, and panel with Tobi aka True Leader is awesome, with those lightining xD

Mattias / Sweden
July 28, 2007, 05:24 AM
heres the episode with their fighting

the other statue sure as helll looks like an uchiha to me so it should be madara


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swPEkbZBrrQ
<hr noshade size="1">
one of the wierdest theories i've heard before about Tobi is that Tobi was Yamato


it doesn´t matter if it looks like an uchiha. it doesn´t proof anything.

kadoman
July 28, 2007, 06:20 AM
I liked the chapter overall. It was informative and fast paced and there weren't any wasted panels or wasted dialogues.

I do agree that it looks more and more like Itachi is not as unfeeling towards Sasuke as Kishi had us believe BUT I think it is early days to be jumping to conclusions and calling him Good. I'd like to remind people that even if it turns out that Itachi didn't murder his clan, he still broke his brother's limb without restraint, told him hasn't enough hate and put him through utter mental hell (not once, but twice) which left him practically comatose for quite a while. Not something a loving sibling would do, I'm sure.

And if people think Itachi did all that under some kind of duress, well, that still begs the question of just how good and kind he really is if someone with his abilities, could inflict that much pain on a loved one without question.

Seranel N'Ryt
July 28, 2007, 06:22 AM
OMG!!! Tobi=Uchiha Madara=Akatsuki Real-Boss???
chapter 364 is amazing!!

Tobi is NOT good boy hehe ~~~~

i think Madara is 'Ghost' . he doesn't harm in that explosion

midiman
July 28, 2007, 06:27 AM
One quick thing Reaver Reload. Based on what you said about Tobi being Obito, you missed one thing, which I have said multiple times now, Obito had his right side crushed.

Even if he had survived, Kakashi has his left eye, and I would say he probably doesn't have much of a right eye after the whole boulder falling on his head thing...

I hate to say this people, but get over the whole Tobi is Obito thing, he isn't. There is no way he could be.

I liked that theory as much as the next person, but it is time to let it go.

It is either of the other two reasons Reaver mentioned.


Man don't kick their dreams like that , let it be ;)

I mean would you have imagined that kishi would have made sasuke able to summon manda in that situation ? Never no one believed it so kishi could also repair tobis body and i think the eye doesn't have to be "crushed"

Reaver Reload
July 28, 2007, 07:46 AM
edit: Whoopsie, only just read the post above after I posted. Kept my post just for novelty value...

Like I said over in the '64 discussion, because of the way that the translation / speech is phrased, it could be one of two (if not more) different things:

1. Tobi is Madara, claiming that his power is his own.

2. Tobi's power is that of Madara's, "My power, Uchiha Madara's power" instead of saying that it was his power only, he implies that it was somebody else's power by referring to himself in the third person (If he is Madara.)

Again, as it is phrased, Tobi has achieved the power of Uchiha Madara, which could, theoretically, be anybody from Naruto to Ayame, the Ramen-shop girl as long as they achieved the aforementioned power. Maybe he was the first to get Mangekyou or some yet unknown Uchiha / Sharingan ability?

Uchiha Slayer
July 28, 2007, 07:54 AM
Did anybody see what i saw on page 6 of the manga...Look behind Juugo...I think that was Deidara on his bird or Obito

Impel Down
July 28, 2007, 07:56 AM
But isn't TOBI Obito? I mean, this pretty much proves it. But I think it's kinda weird that Tobi is now the true leader. And why is the blue haired member so special to Pein?

lordHokage
July 28, 2007, 08:07 AM
I have always said that I don't think Itachi really killed his whole village, or at least from his own will. At first it was a far fetched hunch, but now I think it's becoming more and more obvious. I think Itachi came after the clan was slaughtered, and played the role that he did it so Sasuke would be scared. I think since than, Itachi has been trying to get Sasuke to get to a certain level to be able to defeat this new Uchiha. Ive also noticed that when Itachi came back to Konoha, talked to the Jounins with more respect than he gives to the other members in Akatsuki.

The only other conclusion I can think of, is that the RAL threatened Itachi that he would kill his brother if he didn't kill his clan. And that is still something that RAL hanges over Itachi. Itachi has to do his biding, or he will kill Sasuke.

Well said. I have always believed that Itachi did not kill his clan. He is not like the old Gaara, Sasori, Kisame, Hidan, Orochimaru and Kubuto who get pleasure from killing innocent people. Either the RAL kill his clan or there was war within the clan. :blink

ttxdragon
July 28, 2007, 08:10 AM
i posted this in the predictions thread, but i guess i gotta post this here too:

or the whole tobi == XXXXXXXX mess,

please refer to this to get a clear mind about the topic:



Page 18.

Uchiha Madara.

写輪眼の本当の力が…このうちはマダラの力が」

And Sharingan's true power... the power of I, Uchiha Madara shall prevail*!

*VERY IMPORTANT NOTE. If anyone decides to use this translation for scanlating, I suggest the group retain the following explanatory note. The line above ends in mid sentence - that is to say, he doesn't finish it. This is a lit. translation: Sharingan's true power will - ... the power of I, Uchiha Madara will- !. Actually, it's not even clear if the complete sentence, translated into English, would be in the present or future tense. Kishimoto doesn't want us to know what the Sharingan is doing or will be doing, he only means to let us know that the character is Uchiha Madara. So, please don't start arguing on message boards over your respective theories using different translations of this line into English. It's not a complete line, so most translators (like myself) will chose to complete it to make it sound natural. From there will stem the differences. But really, the only thing Kishi wants to let us know here is that the character posseses Sharingan and is, in one way or another, Uchiha Madara.


お疲れ~iwanin :ossu

Just so people know, Tobi IS Madara Uchiha. As he said, stop trying to twist the line so that it's not him :p.


Amen to that, brotha'! ;)


If referring to translations, please refer to literal and not liberate translations.
liberate translations often twist the meaning of a sentence or allows twisting the meaning of a sentence to some degree.

[hr]


as for my 2cents on the chapter:
The development in this chapter ain't really that great storywise....

I mean, we get a melancholic or something itachi... for whatever reason...
I don't know if the reason is that his brother is alive though he got that note, or that he doesn't like that Madara lied so blatantly.... but he definitely seems to have a pretty deep own agenda now... i wonder what that one is....

for team naruto... we only got to know that kiba is better than his dogs... >.>

but it's nice to see that Pain is worried about Naruto being able to be a threat to him and the organization... it at least means that the win againt kakuzu wasn't totally meaningless for the other parties...

and uchiha slayer... that's a nice observation :)
(although it's actually page 7 when the first spread is joined and page 8 if you count it like it would be a book ;) )

but yeah, that's more than interesting...
i wonder if that one is deidara, or if it's a relativ of deidara :O
you really made me curious by finding that one :D

Impel Down
July 28, 2007, 08:12 AM
Alright, the way it was worded was confusing, and I thought he was just getting Madara's power. Now everything makes...less sense.

segua
July 28, 2007, 08:30 AM
Hmmm...I'm still entitled to my opinions aren't I? Well, I'll reserve my final take on this whole Tobi/Uchiha Madara thing until more chapters are out.

But as I've said, it seems that Kishi is going to wrap up this whole Uchiha Itachi and Uchiha Sasuke so that maybe Kishi could put more attention on Naruto and maybe other details. There could be another flashback chapter or two later when Sasuke confronts Itachi or so.

lordHokage
July 28, 2007, 08:41 AM
THE SHARINGAN’S TRUE POWER… MY POWER… UCHIHA MADARA’S POWER… www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/18 Tobi is not Uchiha Madara. He is either Uchiha Tobi or someone else. :blink

nahkampfbiber
July 28, 2007, 09:00 AM
Did anybody see what i saw on page 6 of the manga...Look behind Juugo...I think that was Deidara on his bird or ObitoIt's just the bird, that sat on Juugo's shoulder the page before, flying away...

The way Itachi was pictured this chapter lets me assume more and more that he had quite a different motive to murder his family. Maybe the Uchiha clan was plotting something?

Jerome
July 28, 2007, 09:03 AM
Did anybody see what i saw on page 6 of the manga...Look behind Juugo...I think that was Deidara on his bird or Obito


i posted this in the predictions thread, but i guess i gotta post this here too:

and uchiha slayer... that's a nice observation :)
(although it's actually page 7 when the first spread is joined and page 8 if you count it like it would be a book ;) )

It's just the small bird that sat on the shoulder of Juugo (in the previous page). The bird just flies away.

edit: whoops, I posted a bit too late ;)

segua
July 28, 2007, 09:24 AM
THE SHARINGAN’S TRUE POWER… MY POWER… UCHIHA MADARA’S POWER… www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/18 Tobi is not Uchiha Madara. He is either Uchiha Tobi or someone else. :blink

I think it that it's a 50/50. I don't know how others feel but I think Kishi is teasing us. From the information that has surfaced from people who are familiar with the usage of "kono..." and villians, it would appear that Tobi is Uchiha Madara. Yet, Tobi doesn't flat out state that he is Uchiha Madara either.

I don't know what Kishi has in mind so I'm neutral to this whole thing not until more information is put out. I say both ways are correct but still vague.

Uchiha Slayer
July 28, 2007, 09:26 AM
It's just the small bird that sat on the shoulder of Juugo (in the previous page). The bird just flies away.

edit: whoops, I posted a bit too late ;)

Look very closely at the shape compared to deidera bird in the previous chapters its looks very much the same...

Look very closely it looks to be somebody is on top of it.

Sephy7KillerMech
July 28, 2007, 09:30 AM
I hate to admit it but Uchiha slayer is right. Also, juugo could be reacting to the presence behind him on the bird and not the outburst from karin.

nahkampfbiber
July 28, 2007, 09:47 AM
then where the hell has that bird gone? And why does the SFX say "Chirp!"? XD You ever saw DDs birds chirping?
you guys have too much fantasy... *rolls eyes*

segua
July 28, 2007, 09:48 AM
You know, Juugo really reminds me of the Android 16 from DBZ. This guy must be insanely strong.

Also, I don't see what you guys are talking about.

bannik
July 28, 2007, 10:03 AM
the bird is circled in black
http://s66.photobucket.com/albums/h276/Bannik/?action=view&current=BIRDIMAGE.png

FishCake
July 28, 2007, 10:23 AM
Look very closely at the shape compared to deidera bird in the previous chapters its looks very much the same...

Look very closely it looks to be somebody is on top of it.


I think that 'someone' is actually just the birds' (very Sasuke-ish) hairdoo from behind. As much as I liked Deidara and am annoyed about his death, he /is/ dead. Very dead. You don't get a lot deader than exploding your heart.

In regards to the chapter and the whole tobi/madara/obito(?) mess, I'm going to have to agree with segua and say I'm neutral on this. Kishi obviously has some idea of where he's going, so I'm just going to wait for a little more information before I go yelling from the roof tops that I know exactly who Tobi is.

I am, however, incredibly excited to learn more about Pein and BH (mostly Pein), and see if Konoha are actually going to meet up with Hebi soon (the cover did mention something about a fated meeting didn't it?) Can't wait! I haven't been this excited about a chapter in ages!

lordHokage
July 28, 2007, 10:43 AM
I think it that it's a 50/50. I don't know how others feel but I think Kishi is teasing us. From the information that has surfaced from people who are familiar with the usage of "kono..." and villians, it would appear that Tobi is Uchiha Madara. Yet, Tobi doesn't flat out state that he is Uchiha Madara either.

I don't know what Kishi has in mind so I'm neutral to this whole thing not until more information is put out. I say both ways are correct but still vague.

Kishimoto is definitely teasing us for sure. In the eyes of many, Tobi will always be Uchiha Madara, Uchiha Obito, Uchiha Tobi, or someone else until there is more background information on him. :blink

Easley
July 28, 2007, 10:47 AM
Why do people keep quoting Hisshouburaiken's trans like it's the only one out there?

That's the only trans I've seen that uses "My power... Uchiha Madara's power". All the others have some variation of "I, Uchiha Madara" when referring to his power.

That entire scene, from the hooded cloak, the lightning flashes, the arrogant 3rd person speech, is pointing us in the direction that Tobi is Madara.

How people can work an Obito theory in there is beyond me. His name isn't even mentioned.

Jerome
July 28, 2007, 10:49 AM
Look very closely at the shape compared to deidera bird in the previous chapters its looks very much the same...

Look very closely it looks to be somebody is on top of it.


I hate to admit it but Uchiha slayer is right. Also, juugo could be reacting to the presence behind him on the bird and not the outburst from karin.

If you guys just look at the previous page you can see the actual bird on Juugo's shoulder. Look at his head, you can see a tuft clearly. I totally agree with nahkampfbiber.

skepticzar
July 28, 2007, 11:01 AM
Hi! I usually just lurk around the dgray man area, but this chapter of Naruto was really cool!!! Tobi as the RAL!! who would have thought, from his silliness. Does this mean that we won't see any more of him goofing off? sighh...

I don't know Japanese so for the moment I'm trying to be neutral on the whole debate on whether Tobi addressed himself as UM or just meant that he has UM's power. either way, the panel with tobi in his billowing cloak and blades and lighting nearly gave me a heart attack. plus I'm still on a high from Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.

And there's definitely much more to Itachi than meets the eye...he can feel man! I wouldnt go so far as to say he's GOOD, but I'm starting to slightly doubt the whole 'I killed the clan' act...

Oh, and Tobi= Obito? I hope not, really. Kakashi would be heartbroken if it were true, seeing as how he visits the memorial thing religiously in honor of his friend.

I checked out the bird thing flying away and yeah, it does look like there's a person on it. How do you people spot these things?

theshizzle
July 28, 2007, 11:13 AM
The discussion page for Tobi on Wikipedia insist that Tobi is Madara and hence forth

wikipedia says so.. but i don't know... i used to be a hater of the Tobi = Obito theory but now i

am not so sure... it is possible that Obito was some how saved, I mean kishi can think of

something that will make us go "ooooooohhh..." but we won't know anything more until

next friday so until then, its all just speculation.

AxelCross
July 28, 2007, 11:18 AM
I have a few thoughts on something I'd like to add (or distract from the "TEH BIRD IS DEIDARA"). I was reading through this chapter again, and thought of something whenever Sasuke calms Juugo down with his Sharingan. We know that the Sharingan can project images and memories into one's mind through genjutsu, as Itachi did to Sasuke to show the slaughter of the clan, and when Sasuke showed the fight between him and Orochimaru to Kabuto.

Now, whenever Sasuke calms Juugo down, suppose he shows images of Kimimaro and Juugo together to him? I've heard some people say that he simply uses the Sharingan's power, but weren't specific, or even say that he shows him Sasuke's evil side and/or murderous intent, like when he calmed Suigetsu and Juugo down with the snakes. But when I see Juugo's face at the end of the three consecutive panels, the last one looks calm, not scared, and then he even says "I'm sorry" at the end of it all.

Not anything deep or storyline twisting, I just thought I'd throw this in, because I think it does show that Sasuke isn't completely cold now as some people think, I think that he does still have an emotional side and such. (I also think the bird = Deidara's bird discussion is insane, to be blunt)

lordHokage
July 28, 2007, 11:24 AM
Look very closely at the shape compared to deidera bird in the previous chapters its looks very much the same...

Look very closely it looks to be somebody is on top of it.

www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/08 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/08) I agree with you that someone is on top of the bird. Who is that mysterious person? Its not Tobi, who else could it be? Do I dare say Deidara-senpai? :o :imslow :eek

AxelCross
July 28, 2007, 11:28 AM
www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/08 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/08) I agree with you that someone is on top of the bird. Who is that mysterious person? Its not Tobi, who else could it be? Do I dare say Deidara-senpai? :o :imslow :eek

Ugh, you're insane! Clearly, obviously, this figure is...Bird-Head Senpai!!!! The most ominous and evil figure in Naruto history, Bird-Head Senpai will be the one to kill Naruto father, the Akatsuki leader, and then partner up with Tobi, Uchiha Itachi (the real Itachi has been a clone the entire time), and reveal the Sakura-chan, the innocent little *WHORE* girl has really killed off the entire Uchiha clan! BELIEEEEEEVE IT!


:oh :oh :oh :oh :oh :oh :notrust

EDIT: Stupid me, I forgot a crucial part: Then Sasuke and Itachi **** like wild animals in heat, while Sakura-chan films it with the camcorder no
jutsu. Sorry for missing that part!

theshizzle
July 28, 2007, 11:31 AM
SOrRy off topic but: Some one PLEASE confirm: Is Sauske's Shunshin no Jutsu the same as Yondaime's?

Sauske-kun really learned it?

kenshiro
July 28, 2007, 11:47 AM
i've always have the feeling that itachi isnt the real clan slayer but some one more powerfull. this chapter kinna pushes along that theory of Tobi(real clan killer) needing sasuke and itachi for his own agenda. while itachi knows sasuke has the potential to take revenge for his clan thus trying to evok his hatred and turn it into momentium to train harder. the loving brother and top student suddenly turned mass murderer just didnt make sense to me.

i dont believe this Obito theory unless there is even a small suggestion in the manga that indicates obito is alive. all i see from speculators for this is when you type Obito twice it spells tobi in the middle..which is pretty weak.

btw whos is this legendary Uchiha Madara guy???

ultrazai
July 28, 2007, 11:49 AM
it isnt even stated that the masked guy is tobi anyways -.-
i am pretty sure that the guy who is with pain right now isnt tobi
tobi is far away from that place right now
and did u all allready forgot last chapter
"tobi is dead a guy like him can easily be replaced"
tobi was a clone of the guy who is with pain (remember the technique of itachi and kisame back in the sarori fight)

lordHokage
July 28, 2007, 12:05 PM
Ugh, you're insane! Clearly, obviously, this figure is...Bird-Head Senpai!!!! The most ominous and evil figure in Naruto history, Bird-Head Senpai will be the one to kill Naruto father, the Akatsuki leader, and then partner up with Tobi, Uchiha Itachi (the real Itachi has been a clone the entire time), and reveal the Sakura-chan, the innocent little *WHORE* girl has really killed off the entire Uchiha clan! BELIEEEEEEVE IT!

:oh :oh :oh :oh :oh :oh :notrust

EDIT: Stupid me, I forgot a crucial part: Then Sasuke and Itachi **** like wild animals in heat, while Sakura-chan films it with the camcorder no jutsu. Sorry for missing that part!

www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/08 Who else could be on top of the late Deidara-senpai bird? There are only two possibilities, Tobi or Deidara. :p



SOrRy off topic but: Some one PLEASE confirm: Is Sauske's Shunshin no Jutsu the same as Yondaime's?

Sauske-kun really learned it?

No, they are not the same. Hiraishin no Jutsu aka Flying Thunder God Technique, an S-rank, all ranges jutsu. Its often compared with the Shunshin no Jutsu aka Body Flicker Technique, an E-rank. Hiraishin no Jutsu that is reserved for Naruto and not Sasuke. :blink

theshizzle
July 28, 2007, 12:16 PM
I am more and more starting to believe the Obito = Tobi theory

Tobi's body looks like its bolted together in places like hes a machine or doesn't have a real body..

http://images6.pictiger.com/images/08/57de64a472611a9f1353c6bf51c3f108.png

Look how Obito's body is entirely almost crushed. just his left side and head remains.. his right eye could be somehow well intact .. who knows maybe hes part puppet or similar to sasori??? and the war they were fighting occured in the grass country where possibly Zetsu is from??? And the size of that boulder is huge so when the other boulders fell maybe they didn't entirely cover his body... just some speculations...

http://images4.pictiger.com/images/e3/80d0ac74225ae1c4294206df94ec55e3.png

if you look at the frame where Obito says "I wanted to be with everyone together longer " the background is dark but you if you look closely you can make out Obito in the background and see part of his face


this is uchiha obito in japanese うちはオビト
this tobi in japanese...........................トビ
!

kenshiro
July 28, 2007, 12:18 PM
it isnt even stated that the masked guy is tobi anyways -.-
i am pretty sure that the guy who is with pain right now isnt tobi
tobi is far away from that place right now
and did u all allready forgot last chapter
"tobi is dead a guy like him can easily be replaced"
tobi was a clone of the guy who is with pain (remember the technique of itachi and kisame back in the sarori fight)

err cos tobi looks exactly the same as the mask guy? did u forget they also said "sasuke is dead" too? why would the mask guy make a clone of him self and rejoin the Akatsuki :blink there is no suggestion in the manga it was a clone or any other look alike so hence logic says its Tobi. how you come up with the clone theory is beyond me.

sabyr
July 28, 2007, 12:49 PM
I just read the chapter and have one thing to say, and one thing only:

HOLY SH**!

Kishimoto definately saved the entire series from losing fans with this one. Many people were drifting away, myself included.

directorj
July 28, 2007, 12:53 PM
The name Uchiha Madara is familiar...

Wasn't Itachi accused of killing an Uchiha Madara, his best friend? Am I getting the name wrong?

Either way, this plot has been blown wiiiiide open. I can't wait to see what happens next.

gnash
July 28, 2007, 12:58 PM
The name Uchiha Madara is familiar...

Wasn't Itachi accused of killing an Uchiha Madara, his best friend? Am I getting the name wrong?

Nope, the one Itachi killed was Uchiha Shisui.
Uchiha Madara was the one Kyubi was talking about when Sasuke entered Naruto's mind in the Rescue-Sasuke-Arc.

segua
July 28, 2007, 01:00 PM
The name Uchiha Madara is familiar...

Wasn't Itachi accused of killing an Uchiha Madara, his best friend? Am I getting the name wrong?

Either way, this plot has been blown wiiiiide open. I can't wait to see what happens next.

You got it wrong. Itachi was accused or at least suspected in killing an Uchiha Shishui to which he denied.

Uchiha Madara was first mention by the Kyuubi when commenting about Sasuke when Sasuke entered into Naruto's mind. That is when Yamoto, Naruto and Sakura tailed Orochimaru, Kabuto and Sai to Orochimaru's hidden lair to locate Sasuke.


+Darn, gnash beat me to it.

ultrazai
July 28, 2007, 01:31 PM
err cos tobi looks exactly the same as the mask guy? did u forget they also said "sasuke is dead" too? why would the mask guy make a clone of him self and rejoin the Akatsuki :blink there is no suggestion in the manga it was a clone or any other look alike so hence logic says its Tobi. how you come up with the clone theory is beyond me.

akatsuki was short one member after sasoris dead so the over-leader just substitudes his self as a member-.-

and besides why would someone state his own dead???
he didnt know if sasuke was dead so he assumed it because it was quite likely-.-
but he definetly said that tobi is dead and if heself would be tobi why would he say such thing?

Double Helix-7
July 28, 2007, 01:42 PM
www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/08 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/08) I agree with you that someone is on top of the bird. Who is that mysterious person? Its not Tobi, who else could it be? Do I dare say Deidara-senpai? :o :imslow :eek

You must be laughing xD That black figure does seem like someone, but Deidara is Dead. Simple as that lol. It's the bird that was on Juugo's shoulder a second ago.


I wonder how Itachi knows that Sasuke isn't dead? Is there some brotherly mental connection thing going on? :amuse

Decorus
July 28, 2007, 01:56 PM
Iwanin gives the most accurate translation of Tobi's line.

http://http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16010

So the literal translation of it ends with Him claiming to be Uchiha Madara. Thus permanently ending the Obito = Tobi theory. Please keep in mind there is a lot of wriggle room when translating from one language to another so its best to look for the literal translation. Or if I were being a real jerk NAH NAH I TOLD YA SO!!!

There are several such instances in the Manga my personal Favorite is when Itachi told Sasuke he killed the entire clan to measure his container. While accurate as a translation a better translation would have been to use the word Capacity.

laughing@you
July 28, 2007, 01:58 PM
I don't know if anybody mention it before, but how did akatsuki knew naruto manage to kill two of kakuzus hearts? No akatsuki member was around the fight. Kakuzu's body was taken to konoha, so how?

Whats with juugo turning out to be the evil version of tarzan?? Talking with birds?

Wow Tobi turned out to be madara no wonder kishimoto slip his name when sasuke was fighting naruto for the second time!!!!

I'm wondering what kind of powers does Pein have? Is it just me or is kishimoto hinting that pein influences the weather conditions???

kenshiro
July 28, 2007, 02:04 PM
akatsuki was short one member after sasoris dead so the over-leader just substitudes his self as a member-.-

and besides why would someone state his own dead???
he didnt know if sasuke was dead so he assumed it because it was quite likely-.-
but he definetly said that tobi is dead and if heself would be tobi why would he say such thing?

yes he substituted HIM SELF as a member but it surely isnt a clone.

lol?? wth? go read the previous chapter again...i think your lost. Zetsu said "it seems that sasuke has perished as well though" "tobi seems to have perished in the explosion as well" Zetsu is NOT tobi :eyeroll

pein obviously dont want the members of akatsuki to know tobi was pulling the strings so he played down his role. also it explains the lowkey clown like characteristics that tobi showed when ak members around and not once have we seen him used any jitsu. didnt it appear to you something is abit off when such a elite group would accept a member who only runs around?

most logical scenario is tobi teleported him self using the MS or some dimentional warp technique. pein and that chick was waiting for him to arrive later on.

on the sidebar of page19 it says "A shocking truth is revealed by the light of the storm! The one pulling Akatsuki's strings is Tobi...and his eye is a Sharingan! The third surviving Uchiha calls forth lighting!"

there you go...mastermind =Tobi=madara so stop arguing about this because you're obviously lost.

lordHokage
July 28, 2007, 02:26 PM
Also, juugo could be reacting to the presence behind him on the bird and not the outburst from karin.

I think so too. He senses an evil chakra. :blink



You must be laughing xD That black figure does seem like someone, but Deidara is Dead. Simple as that lol. It's the bird that was on Juugo's shoulder a second ago.

I agree with you that Deidara-senpai is DEAD. :gigglebunny :Haha :gigglebunny :Haha

Mystical
July 28, 2007, 03:40 PM
Ehh? Can't remember in the manga but wasn't it Itachi who first mentions Madara as the first to get the true power of the sharingan?

ALSO. How does Tobi being Madara obliterate the theory that Tobi = Obito? There is still a possibility that he IS obito, and after the incident in the cave changed his name to Madara.

Either way, still doesn't explain why he only uses his right eye, which we thought was crushed for obito, maybe it wasn't. So in my opinion, tobi = obito = madara is still entirely possible.

Also perhaps thats how kakashi got his mangekyo or whatever sharingan he has now, maybe the two sharingan are still connected and since madara already has it, maybe kakashi just figured out how to actually unlock it for himself... anyway many possiblities still even with this revelation O_O

Darrenj
July 28, 2007, 04:00 PM
got to remember its been known since early in the naruto manga that people wish to steal bloodlines, for all we know, tobi might of just killed a sharingan user 40years ago and stolen his eye

Neuroff
July 28, 2007, 04:08 PM
Ehh? Can't remember in the manga but wasn't it Itachi who first mentions Madara as the first to get the true power of the sharingan?
Itachi never says anything about Madara.


ALSO. How does Tobi being Madara obliterate the theory that Tobi = Obito? There is still a possibility that he IS obito, and after the incident in the cave changed his name to Madara.
If that was the case, then the Kyuubi wouldn't know who Madara is.

Mystical
July 28, 2007, 04:31 PM
How would the Kyuubi not know obito? If I remember their team leader (obito kakashi etc) was the 4rth hokage, which means the kyuubi is still out there since hes not DEAD yet. So, there still is that possibility.


EDIT -- The 4rth was still alive after the cave incident with obito, so its still possible.


EDIT 2 -- also, doesn't itachi mention madara in the flashback sauske has when he fights itachi (in the anime at least) Now I know we can't really rely on the anime but still -_-, he at least says theres already someone else with the mangekyo

gold349
July 28, 2007, 04:54 PM
awsome,awsome just awsome dark clouds, heavy rain, thunder and lightning Uchiha Madra's revalation briliantly done!!!!

badluckartist
July 28, 2007, 04:54 PM
This chapter seemed to raise more questions than answers.

First, I'd love Deidara to come back, but I think that was just an easter egg kishi threw in there to make us all go " I miss Deidara-sempai, hm : / ". Plus, I've never heard of Deidara's chakra being described as "evil." I'm pretty sure Android 16/Juugo and his bird-friend were referring to Tobi's chakra, who is revealed to be Madara, who is said to have chakra more wicked than the Kyuubi's own chakra. That's pretty damn evil : p

Seeing as how the questions have all been raised, doesnt anyone think that it's possible that Tobi's real identity could be Obito's body reconstructed and possessed by an otherwise deceased Uchiha Madara? Zetsu originally found Tobi, and we know NOTHING about Zetsu. So it's very possible that he could have something to do with harvesting Obito's body shortly after his 'death' and bringing it to an otherwise very intangible and body-less Madara. Possession and mind transfer jutsu's aren't unheard of in the Narutoverse (See Orochimaru).

Maybe that's why Oro joined Akatsuki in the first place, to learn a mind transfer jutsu known only by Madara so he could attain immortality. After that, Itachi scared him, and he no longer had anything to gain by staying with Akatsuki, simple as that.

I refuse to give up on the Obito-Tobi theory. My aforementioned theory only cements more evidence that the two could be one in the same.

>> As to why MadTobi would go out of his way to feign being a subordinate and then lesser member of Akatsuki and all-around weakling, is far beyond my deductive reasonings. Kishi has MAD explaining to do on that. <<

kazuma_uzumaki
July 28, 2007, 04:56 PM
Itachi never says anything about Madara.


If that was the case, then the Kyuubi wouldn't know who Madara is.
agreed

most people i know say that madara is the other statue in that one valley when naruto was fighitn sasuke

theres even lots of fanart in deviantart

Neuroff
July 28, 2007, 04:57 PM
How would the Kyuubi not know obito? If I remember their team leader (obito kakashi etc) was the 4rth hokage, which means the kyuubi is still out there since hes not DEAD yet. So, there still is that possibility.


EDIT -- The 4rth was still alive after the cave incident with obito, so its still possible.


EDIT 2 -- also, doesn't itachi mention madara in the flashback sauske has when he fights itachi (in the anime at least) Now I know we can't really rely on the anime but still -_-, he at least says theres already someone else with the mangekyo
Basically right after Kakashi Gaiden is when Yondaime dies. There is absolutely no chance that Obito could have become strong enough to face the Kyuubi, especially off of his deathbed. He would have had to recover, master the sharingan, kill his best friend (Kakashi), and get ridiculously stronger than he was in a matter of months at most. Impossible.

And Itachi never says Madara, watch the episodes if you want.

kazuma_uzumaki
July 28, 2007, 05:04 PM
This chapter seemed to raise more questions than answers.

First, I'd love Deidara to come back, but I think that was just an easter egg kishi threw in there to make us all go " I miss Deidara-sempai, hm : / ". Plus, I've never heard of Deidara's chakra being described as "evil." I'm pretty sure Android 16/Juugo and his bird-friend were referring to Tobi's chakra, who is revealed to be Madara, who is said to have chakra more wicked than the Kyuubi's own chakra. That's pretty damn evil : p

Seeing as how the questions have all been raised, doesnt anyone think that it's possible that Tobi's real identity could be Obito's body reconstructed and possessed by an otherwise deceased Uchiha Madara? Zetsu originally found Tobi, and we know NOTHING about Zetsu. So it's very possible that he could have something to do with harvesting Obito's body shortly after his 'death' and bringing it to an otherwise very intangible and body-less Madara. Possession and mind transfer jutsu's aren't unheard of in the Narutoverse (See Orochimaru).

Maybe that's why Oro joined Akatsuki in the first place, to learn a mind transfer jutsu known only by Madara so he could attain immortality. After that, Itachi scared him, and he no longer had anything to gain by staying with Akatsuki, simple as that.

I refuse to give up on the Obito-Tobi theory. My aforementioned theory only cements more evidence that the two could be one in the same.

>> As to why MadTobi would go out of his way to feign being a subordinate and then lesser member of Akatsuki and all-around weakling, is far beyond my deductive reasonings. Kishi has MAD explaining to do on that. <<
yes another obitobi person <3


an intresting theory but when kyubi spoke of madara he made it seem that madara was like at least adult old(maybe 40-60) and tobi acts childish so yeah >_>
[hr]

How would the Kyuubi not know obito? If I remember their team leader (obito kakashi etc) was the 4rth hokage, which means the kyuubi is still out there since hes not DEAD yet. So, there still is that possibility.


EDIT -- The 4rth was still alive after the cave incident with obito, so its still possible.


EDIT 2 -- also, doesn't itachi mention madara in the flashback sauske has when he fights itachi (in the anime at least) Now I know we can't really rely on the anime but still -_-, he at least says theres already someone else with the mangekyo

you must be thinking of uchiha shisui

Neuroff
July 28, 2007, 05:05 PM
Seeing as how the questions have all been raised, doesnt anyone think that it's possible that Tobi's real identity could be Obito's body reconstructed and possessed by an otherwise deceased Uchiha Madara? Zetsu originally found Tobi, and we know NOTHING about Zetsu. So it's very possible that he could have something to do with harvesting Obito's body shortly after his 'death' and bringing it to an otherwise very intangible and body-less Madara. Possession and mind transfer jutsu's aren't unheard of in the Narutoverse (See Orochimaru).

Maybe that's why Oro joined Akatsuki in the first place, to learn a mind transfer jutsu known only by Madara so he could attain immortality. After that, Itachi scared him, and he no longer had anything to gain by staying with Akatsuki, simple as that.

I refuse to give up on the Obito-Tobi theory. My aforementioned theory only cements more evidence that the two could be one in the same.
I really don't see why Madara would use Tobi to transfer into when there are much stronger Uchiha he could use. If Madara was using body transfer, he would have taken over Itachi by now.


agreed

most people i know say that madara is the other statue in that one valley when naruto was fighitn sasuke

theres even lots of fanart in deviantart
The only reason that started was because pokefreak made a fanart of Madara using the statue as a base. Just look at what he says about it:

meh, just a hunch XD

dont care if its not him xD
enjoy X3

i was guessing he's the other statue in the valley of the end ^^'

did the hair wrong, will fix that tomorrow X3

Saying Madara is the other statue is pure speculation.

kazuma_uzumaki
July 28, 2007, 05:08 PM
I really don't see why Madara would use Tobi to transfer into when there are much stronger Uchiha he could use. If Madara was using body transfer, he would have taken over Itachi by now.


The only reason that started was because pokefreak made a fanart of Madara using the statue as a base. Just look at what he says about it:

meh, just a hunch XD

dont care if its not him xD
enjoy X3

i was guessing he's the other statue in the valley of the end ^^'

did the hair wrong, will fix that tomorrow X3

Saying Madara is the other statue is pure speculation.
well bleh>_>

the statue has the famous spikey uchiha hair>_>

like karin's hair :D

Neuroff
July 28, 2007, 05:19 PM
well bleh>_>

the statue has the famous spikey uchiha hair>_>

like karin's hair :D
And the statue could just be like Karin and be a non-Uchiha.

gold349
July 28, 2007, 05:27 PM
Well said. I have always believed that Itachi did not kill his clan. He is not like the old Gaara, Sasori, Kisame, Hidan, Orochimaru and Kubuto who get pleasure from killing innocent people. Either the RAL kill his clan or there was war within the clan. :blink

sorry if i dont see it like that, we have all heard how specail Itachi was when growing up and we can just guess how strong he really is, I think if Itachi just found his whole clan killed even his mother and father, he would not care how strong that other person is he would want revenge then and there, if that wasn't possible then he wouldn't try to kill his brother and the only other uchiha but to get the f..... out of there with saske to fight another day. the first thing he done was to throw a shuriken and then mentally torture him, i dont see these as love and care or rational thinking by him. All of Konha say he killed his whole clan, there was a "keep out " tape all around the Uchiha clan murder site im sure that they did a proper good investigation, if Itachi wasn't guilty he would have stayed behind plus if he needed saske's help to deal with this other person then he would be there to see his upbringing and that he is getting strong the right way inorder to be of any help to him Saske's safety would be Itachi's main prioroty

Uchiro
July 28, 2007, 05:57 PM
I really believe now that Tobi is Obito. Which is kinda effed cuz Obito was a good guy. I know, some will argue that Sasuke was a good guy at one point too, but what reason would Obito have to turn evil? Something is missing, and I think it has something to do with Madara.

Deinonychus
July 28, 2007, 06:10 PM
Maybe you could get your facts and interpretation right before make such declaration.

Tobi refers to his power, the Sharingan, as Uchiha Madara's power, not that he is Uchiha Madara.

This only means the power is originally from said Uchiha. We can't say if Tobi is Obito, Madara, or if he is even an Uchiha.


Actually the way I read it in all translations was that he was referring to himself as Uchiha Madara. Iwanin (in the latest Iwanin's translation) put it clearly:
"the line above ends in mid sentence - that is to say, he doesn't finish it. This is a lit. translation: Sharingan's true power will - ... the power of I, Uchiha Madara will- !. Actually, it's not even clear if the complete sentence, translated into English, would be in the present or future tense. Kishimoto doesn't want us to know what the Sharingan is doing or will be doing, he only means to let us know that the character is Uchiha Madara. So, please don't start arguing on message boards over your respective theories using different translations of this line into English. It's not a complete line, so most translators (like myself) will chose to complete it to make it sound natural. From there will stem the differences. But really, the only thing Kishi wants to let us know here is that the character posseses Sharingan and is, in one way or another, Uchiha Madara".

Theres really no space for a discussion about this matter.
[hr]
The latest chapter was pretty great. I was sort of losing interest in the Naruto manga. This next chapter changed everything. Theres just crazy theories in my head right now and I've read really excellent theories from many Naruto fans. I really hope the next chapter brings more info to light regarding the Madara/Akatsuki issue. What a nice twist! Now we have to reformulate all that we were thinking about Akatsuki and its goal. Actually most of its members seem to be mere pawns, not even having an idea of the big picture.

lordHokage
July 28, 2007, 06:18 PM
sorry if i dont see it like that, we have all heard how specail Itachi was when growing up and we can just guess how strong he really is, I think if Itachi just found his whole clan killed even his mother and father, he would not care how strong that other person is he would want revenge then and there, if that wasn't possible then he wouldn't try to kill his brother and the only other uchiha but to get the f..... out of there with saske to fight another day. the first thing he done was to throw a shuriken and then mentally torture him, i dont see these as love and care or rational thinking by him. All of Konha say he killed his whole clan, there was a "keep out " tape all around the Uchiha clan murder site im sure that they did a proper good investigation, if Itachi wasn't guilty he would have stayed behind plus if he needed saske's help to deal with this other person then he would be there to see his upbringing and that he is getting strong the right way inorder to be of any help to him Saske's safety would be Itachi's main prioroty

Why is there no ANBU or Hunter-nin hunting down Itachi the same way as Naruto pursue Sasuke? There is more to the Uchiha clan massacre and the Village Leaders are keeping it top secret by protecting Itachi and Sasuke from Tobi. :p

Smitenheimer
July 28, 2007, 06:20 PM
I really believe now that Tobi is Obito. Which is kinda effed cuz Obito was a good guy. I know, some will argue that Sasuke was a good guy at one point too, but what reason would Obito have to turn evil? Something is missing, and I think it has something to do with Madara.

Its a little off the topic, but what has sasuke done thats really evil? he didn't kill naruto, he only used orochimaru for power, thats kind of a selfish, or a neutral action, because its self serving. is it because he left his town? because who really cares about that?

Neuroff
July 28, 2007, 06:32 PM
Why is there no ANBU or Hunter-nin hunting down Itachi the same way as Naruto pursue Sasuke? There is more to the Uchiha clan massacre and the Village Leaders are keeping it top secret by protecting Itachi and Sasuke from Tobi. :p
If you want to look at it that way, Naruto is hunting down Itachi right now. Konoha sent no ANBU after Sasuke. It is no different from what they did with Itachi. The only reason anyone is chasing Sasuke at all is because Naruto is obsessing about getting Sasuke back. Itachi killed his best friend and his whole clan, there was nobody left that would want to bring him back.

Takuto
July 28, 2007, 06:51 PM
I can see some sort of collision between Itachi/Sasuke and Naruto/Pein, most likely it will be a one on one and they'l incapacitate Naruto group or they'll be pre-occupied.

As for this chapter was suprised at Tobi but would still like him to be Obito, although i'v heard alot of translations that he's Madara and ones that say that he's using his power, it's confusing lol.

PaperYomiko
July 28, 2007, 07:03 PM
I really believe now that Tobi is Obito. Which is kinda effed cuz Obito was a good guy. I know, some will argue that Sasuke was a good guy at one point too, but what reason would Obito have to turn evil? Something is missing, and I think it has something to do with Madara.

If Tobi is really Obito, I think the question isn't what made him turn evil, but what made him turn away from Konoha. His intentions, assuming they are the same as the Akatsuki's, certainly wouldn't qualify as good or noble intentions, but I do not think they are necessarily evil, either. They are, however, definitely selfish intentions, which is very much unlike the Obito we've already met. Even if in some way he believes he's doing some good, I doubt that the old Obito would feel those motives justify killing "innocent" people like Naruto or Gaara. I think that whatever the reason for this change, from selfless to selfish, it probably will be the same reason why he would have become a missing nin as opposed to returning to Konoha. But I agree, Madara has got to have something to do with all this, and I'm sure we'll be finding out more about him soon.

Of course, this is all assuming that Tobi truly is Obito...which, although very likely now, hasn't been made irrefutably official. But, whoever Tobi is, what I want to know is who's really in charge? And why's he pretending to be some lowly second string player if he really is the one calling the shots? And, perhaps the most important question, just how many facial piercings does the so-called AL have?! :XD

lordHokage
July 28, 2007, 07:15 PM
If you want to look at it that way, Naruto is hunting down Itachi right now. Konoha sent no ANBU after Sasuke. It is no different from what they did with Itachi. The only reason anyone is chasing Sasuke at all is because Naruto is obsessing about getting Sasuke back. Itachi killed his best friend and his whole clan, there was nobody left that would want to bring him back.

If the Third Hokage had Naruto’s obsession for Orochimaru, he, the First and the Second Hokages, and Orochimaru arms would never ever be within the death god’s stomach. Naruto is trying to prevent great sorrow and pain. :p

taimoor2
July 28, 2007, 09:10 PM
I have been saying since ages now that Uchiha Itachi is a good boy(oh I mean guy). This chapter further supports my theory. If Itachi was indeed crying than..he is atleast not bad..His sentence "Sasuke is not dead yet" also means that whatever akatsuki is planning involves sasuke's death! And he knows about it!

The last couple of chapter shows not all akatsuki are in there because they want to be. I strongly believe now itachi is like deidara,forced to join akatsuki. He believes only sasuke has the potential to defeat madara and....oh well, read the rest of my theory in naruto toshkan!

Ukun
July 29, 2007, 12:14 AM
Hmmm, well, I was reading over the kanji/katakana/hiragana for Tobi's final statement, and one could say the romaji was "...ko no uchiha madara no kaga" which could mean either what people have been translating it as, or directly as "Child of Uchiha Madara of Flower bud" or it could be "Uchiha Madara's flower bud child". This would make the real translation of the entire quote to be "And Sharingans true power...Uchiha Madara's flower bud child" which could mean that Uchiha Madara was the original owner of the sharingan and that it was only a flower bud and had yet to blossom. Of course I may be thinking way to far into this, but I thought I'd just bring this up for everyone to ponder.

Also, another person I know translated it as "And Sharingan's true power...Among these the power of variegation." Not quite sure is that one is right.

Anywho, there you go, think about those two things for a bit.

gurendesu
July 29, 2007, 01:38 AM
HO DAMN... hope tobi doesnt go all serious now... goofy tobi was da shiznit

macherie
July 29, 2007, 03:08 AM
I think too many of us, are taking what Tobi says too directly, we see it differently solely cos we are not japanese. Therefore, we don't really know exactly what he's saying, the translators on the other hand do. Japanese grammar/expression is far different to english, as most of oyu may know, but i thikn too many of us are too afraid to see Tobi = Madara, and so deny what he claims.

Ukun
July 29, 2007, 03:11 AM
True, but unless the translators are truly Japanese and live in a place where they use and hear it frequently, then you can't say they are 100% correct. After all, they were taught by someone and they or the teacher may not know such a detail that could be the difference between I and something else.

anrufen
July 29, 2007, 03:40 AM
I didnt get it....Is Tobi Refering himself as Uchiha Madara??? Or is he just another Uchiha boasting about his Clan...or Uchiha Madara So to speak?

ornis
July 29, 2007, 03:56 AM
True, but unless the translators are truly Japanese and live in a place where they use and hear it frequently, then you can't say they are 100% correct. After all, they were taught by someone and they or the teacher may not know such a detail that could be the difference between I and something else.


Does that fact, Ukun, further your argument in an objective way, or do you relish the circumstance and so defend it because it aids in your belief, in your desire? I notice you have declared not what you believe is true but have solely reviewed possibility. Is the idea of Tobi == Madara an event you wish not to accept? Is any event acceptable and is your assessment of possibility a stamp of your neutrality?

Ukun
July 29, 2007, 03:57 AM
Which is exactly the point I was making. It all depends on how the person translates it compared to the way Kishi intended which is what I think his goal is, to confuse us. I myself am not a translator or Japanese, so i can say with certainty if what I posted above is true. As for my own standpoint, I'd like to believe that he is in fact Uchiha Madara, which would probably make things much more interesting then if he wasn't. I'm just stating the fact that there is a possibility that he isn't, and here's why I say that.

macherie
July 29, 2007, 05:20 AM
Ukun, when i previously stated my thoughts, i too, was agreeing that he IS Uchiha Madara. I've just clarified this with my friend who is japanese, speaks japanese, and has been reading manga since he was small.
When you are japanese, and when you LEARN japanese, it's different. Native japanese, have in their own way, native language where they can understand those types of phrases, e.g. this tobi = madara one, better than we can, even if we are proficient in japanese.
So it appears that, in the end, Tobi is in fact, referring to himself, saying he is Uchiha Madara.

Marcius
July 29, 2007, 05:24 AM
It seems to me that Pein kinda isn´t much happy about taking Naruto down, or am I the only one?:blink

juUnior
July 29, 2007, 05:32 AM
And if people think Itachi did all that under some kind of duress, well, that still begs the question of just how good and kind he really is if someone with his abilities, could inflict that much pain on a loved one without question.
Yes, yes, but what about Gaara, old Gaara? He also was superb against his brother and sister, and all in all, it turned out that he is also a good boy :D <half-joke>

taimoor2
July 29, 2007, 05:36 AM
It seems to me that Pein kinda isn´t much happy about taking Naruto down, or am I the only one?:blink

I think he is just a gloomy person. To be honest, right now, even itachi is more than a match for naruto. No one in naruto squad stands a chance against itachi except perhaps kakashi. If Madara knew pein will be emotional when taking down naruto, he won't assign the job to him. Capturing kyuubi is extemely important,Madara/Tobi won't assign such an important job to a person who isn't happy about it. Itachi will do just fine.

So thats why I think Pein is just a gloomy person who is serious all the time. Somewhat like itachi.

Right now, I think pein will fight someone else before he fight naruto or naruto will fall(i.e will be defeated). Guys who never lost before need to show off their power before they lose. I think this will be a mini arc in which pein will fight(and kill) a few strong ninjas,most probably from hebi or may be from konoha.

segua
July 29, 2007, 06:39 AM
All of Konha say he killed his whole clan, there was a "keep out " tape all around the Uchiha clan murder site im sure that they did a proper good investigation, if Itachi wasn't guilty he would have stayed behind plus if he needed saske's help to deal with this other person then he would be there to see his upbringing and that he is getting strong the right way inorder to be of any help to him Saske's safety would be Itachi's main prioroty

So here is what I gathered from the flashbacks:

Shishui and Itachi were the only two who didn't show up at the Uchiha clan meeting which took place at night.
Shishui was found dead at the Nakano river with a suicide note.
Only another strong Sharingan-using Uchiha member could've killed Shishui.
It is easy for a Sharingan user to forge notes.
In a fit of rage, Itachi spout out something synonymous to what was written in Shishui's suicide note.
Itachi acting out-of-the-norm.


From the cold-hard facts obtain from Sasuke, Itachi was unquestionably behind the massacre.

Itachi confessed to the massacre as a measure to test himself.
Used Mangekyou Sharingan to recreate the whole entire massacre from start to finish.

So these two are the undeniably hard facts with about 6 pieces of clues that supports Itachi as the killer. Even if he stayed, he would've been held in custody and any testimony, be it true, could be regarded as irrelevant due to Itachi being a sharingan user. Personally, I think that it was, sadly, the perfect opportunity for Itachi to leave, what he considered, a pathetic clan.

But here are some contradictions as well:

On the following morning of Shishui's supposed suicide incident, Itachi didn't seem to be injured or sustained any injuries what-so-ever. He seemed to be in very good shape.

The day before the night of the Uchiha clan massacre, Itachi specifically stated that he had an important mission to do on the following day. He told both his father and Sasuke.

If Itachi killed his parents, why did he shouted to Sasuke to stay out of the room where the bodies of their parents lain?


Regard to what I've said in some of my previous posts:

If you killed an entire clan, why would you be on top of a utility pole overlooking the clan residency with the Sharingan still activated? It would make more sense if he was scanning the area for any signs of the culprit.

When Sasuke ran home, it seemed that Itachi just recently killed their parents off. If that was so, what was he doing perched on top of the utility pole when there were apparently two more people he had to kill? Taking his sweet time?

Also, if Sasuke wasn't even worth killing, were the other Uchiha children considered stronger and more worthy to kill than the little foolish Sasuke who out ranked every other student in his class?
[hr]

It seems to me that Pein kinda isn´t much happy about taking Naruto down, or am I the only one?:blink

He seems indifferent about it as if it was just business.

lordHokage
July 29, 2007, 08:14 AM
It seems to me that Pein kinda isn´t much happy about taking Naruto down, or am I the only one?:blink

If Pein is related to Naruto his true feelings will emerge in capturing him. This will be a bitter-sweet victory for him. :comfort

vinsanity
July 29, 2007, 08:27 AM
So here is what I gathered from the flashbacks:

Shishui and Itachi were the only two who didn't show up at the Uchiha clan meeting which took place at night.
Shishui was found dead at the Nakano river with a suicide note.
Only another strong Sharingan-using Uchiha member could've killed Shishui.
It is easy for a Sharingan user to forge notes.
In a fit of rage, Itachi spout out something synonymous to what was written in Shishui's suicide note.
Itachi acting out-of-the-norm.


From the cold-hard facts obtain from Sasuke, Itachi was unquestionably behind the massacre.

Itachi confessed to the massacre as a measure to test himself.
Used Mangekyou Sharingan to recreate the whole entire massacre from start to finish.

So these two are the undeniably hard facts with about 6 pieces of clues that supports Itachi as the killer. Even if he stayed, he would've been held in custody and any testimony, be it true, could be regarded as irrelevant due to Itachi being a sharingan user. Personally, I think that it was, sadly, the perfect opportunity for Itachi to leave, what he considered, a pathetic clan.

But here are some contradictions as well:

On the following morning of Shishui's supposed suicide incident, Itachi didn't seem to be injured or sustained any injuries what-so-ever. He seemed to be in very good shape.

The day before the night of the Uchiha clan massacre, Itachi specifically stated that he had an important mission to do on the following day. He told both his father and Sasuke.

If Itachi killed his parents, why did he shouted to Sasuke to stay out of the room where the bodies of their parents lain?


Regard to what I've said in some of my previous posts:

If you killed an entire clan, why would you be on top of a utility pole overlooking the clan residency with the Sharingan still activated? It would make more sense if he was scanning the area for any signs of the culprit.

When Sasuke ran home, it seemed that Itachi just recently killed their parents off. If that was so, what was he doing perched on top of the utility pole when there were apparently two more people he had to kill? Taking his sweet time?

Also, if Sasuke wasn't even worth killing, were the other Uchiha children considered stronger and more worthy to kill than the little foolish Sasuke who out ranked every other student in his class?


good points here :thumbs

maybe who was on top of the utility pole was other guy and not itachi, tobi/madara maybe?

maybe itachi assumed himself has being the murder of the entire clan, knowing that this way sasuke would become stronger enough for both defeat the 'other sharingan user'.

segua
July 29, 2007, 09:03 AM
From the Itachi == a good boy stance, there is also a paradox. How did Itachi obtained the MS then?

@yassbittar: You bring up a good point about it was their father who screamed and not Itachi. But I suppose this whole Itachi == good boy, you could view it as Itachi. If you kept the train of thought that Itach != good boy, it was the father who tried to warn Sasuke.

Itachi was in Anbu but he was not in Roots. Danzo control Roots. The Hokage control Anbu.

macherie
July 29, 2007, 09:19 AM
Remember, Itachi stated a WAY of obtaining the MS, he didn't say that was only way. Obviously, by Kakashi having gained the MS, and a different shape, he shows that there is another way of obtaining it. This other method, we do not know yet.

lordHokage
July 29, 2007, 09:26 AM
I think he is just a gloomy person. To be honest, right now, even itachi is more than a match for naruto. No one in naruto squad stands a chance against itachi except perhaps kakashi. If Madara knew pein will be emotional when taking down naruto, he won't assign the job to him. Capturing kyuubi is extemely important,Madara/Tobi won't assign such an important job to a person who isn't happy about it. Itachi will do just fine.

So thats why I think Pein is just a gloomy person who is serious all the time. Somewhat like itachi.

Right now, I think pein will fight someone else before he fight naruto or naruto will fall(i.e will be defeated). Guys who never lost before need to show off their power before they lose. I think this will be a mini arc in which pein will fight(and kill) a few strong ninjas,most probably from hebi or may be from konoha.

I agree with you that Pein is a gloomy person. :sad

Tobi knows that both Pein and Naruto bear a resemblance to one another and could be relatives. If Tobi was responsible for killing the Uchiha clan, capturing or killing Naruto will not be a problem. I think Tobi deliberately order Pein to capture Naruto to test him. :blink

segua
July 29, 2007, 09:38 AM
I believe Kakashi saw how the Mangekyou Sharingan worked but couldn't copy it of course. Armed with this new revelation, Kakashi set out how to achieve his own version of the Mangekyou Sharingan. I'm sure Kakashi must've spent a long time trying to find ways to achieve it before actually being able to do it. Even after being able to enable the MS, he must've spent most of his time recuperating in his bed from trying to fine tune his ability with the MS.

But if you paid attention to how Kakashi activates his version of the MS. he needed time to gather chakra, then using hand seals, he would finally activate his MS.
[hr]

thinking about it... what if it is not the fact of killing one's best friend, but felling guilty about it?
i mean, obito gave his life in order to save kakashi, but maybe kakashi felas guilty about it, dunno maybe "oh, if i had been more responsible i could have avoided this"... so felling guilty made him achieve the MS... waddaya think?

LOL. I can't picture Kakashi sitting in some corner crying just so he could obtain the MS. He's a smart ninja that has great understanding of how chakra works. The man could even focus chakra on a tenketsu point to enable him to do great feats. He is an amazing guy so I'm sure he would've figure out a way to achieve his version of the MS by seeing another Sharingan user us the MS.

ornis
July 29, 2007, 09:56 AM
Wow, this has easily strayed. What happen to 364? Do we need that much more... er... want that much more Itachi in our life that this simple little thread becomes an unabridged thought collector on him topping a poll? Him and his corruption of MS' purpose... //I believe he corrupted it. That's my idea about the whole BS he fed Sasuke on "killing your best friend." Nope. That isn't the absolute way. More exist//

Anyhow, let's think about Pein or anything/anyone else in um 364 while tying the thoughts in to 364. For me---Pein.

I'm thinking, "To have the sky cry out his name, per se..." Why...? As if he's called forth by Nature itself to... what, achieve balance... to "fetch the Sun?" I ponder what a hero's supposed to be, there is an ethic that defines a true one. If Pein's in service to correct something a bit amiss... with the sacrifices he has caused and made, what is the ethical point of this story, unless he fails? Some sort of deliverance of Pein from a world that isn't "right," at any cost, may be realized.... but not necessarily preserved. There's long been a dreary shade of romanticism, a tinge not the most ideal but still observed. We could witness it here.

ziraz
July 29, 2007, 10:56 AM
hmmm my tyeory is
IF TOBI IS OBITO:-
then the sharingan kakashi has is part of tobi and sharingan doesn't know time and space so its possible that it feels its other part or pair sharingan so when tobi acheived mange kyou kakashis sharingan also reacted and i think kishimoto is moving towards another sharingan vs sharingan battle i mean kakashi vs tobi

segua
July 29, 2007, 11:58 AM
I got the feeling that Pein is being by used Tobi for Tobi.

What I am saying that Tobi's true from could be that of the statue that seals the bijuus. When all the bijuus are sealed, Madara would again be set free upon the world. Meaning, Madara's true body is that statue which has been sealed or imprisoned for a very long time. From the look of things, whoever ever tried to seal Madara was unsuccessful and only managed to seal away most of Madara's power. If not sealed, Madara's powers were divided but his divided powers took up their own life hence the reasons why you got bijuus. (That's just one speculation.)

Also, notice how the 9 eyes seem to be on a blindfold that covers the true eyes? What if whoever originally tried to seal Madara managed to blindfold one of the true eyes while Madara got away with the other eye? So when all the bijuus are sealed within the statue, Madara's true body would be unsealed and start his reign or rampage of darkness. Also note that the statue is also known as the King of the Underworld? Once Madara has been set free, Pein would be consequently be rewarded with death. If that does happen, Pein is a very tragic villian who should be the most pitied out of Akatsuki.

Anyway, enough with the speculations.

I think Pein is a very interesting villian. He's like an idealist yet he is not completely nihilistic about his goals either. He rejects peace as something that threatens his way of life. Another thing is that he does not want any useless wars or wars waged for irrelevant reasoning. Pein seems to desire a type of order that could only be achieved through chaos.

shachi
July 29, 2007, 01:16 PM
The significance of Tobi inheriting Sasori's ring is pretty clear now. Sasori was literally the greatest puppet-master. Orchestrating events and manipulating people undetected, Tobi is a figurative puppet-master.

Lord Rae
July 29, 2007, 02:49 PM
I think obviously the best way to keep an eye on people and get an inside look at how an organization runs is to be part of it...

Think of the advantages of being the real leader but everyone just thinks your one of them. You'd get an accurate view of the mindset of everyone, how they feel towards the goals, how they feel about the "leader" and how best to orchestrate things to bring about the desired result.

Glowstuff
July 29, 2007, 03:34 PM
It seems to me that Pein kinda isn´t much happy about taking Naruto down, or am I the only one?:blink

I agree. BH, saying "Pein......You...." at the end is what made me think this.

Neo_Akatsuki
July 29, 2007, 03:42 PM
that makes sense, but what do you think, tobi was the real akatsuki leader since the begining? or he became the RAL after he became a complete akatsuki member?

I think that Tobi was the real Akatsuki leader all along but he was just meeting with Pein and BH in secret from the start. Remember, from what we know, Tobi was always around Akatsuki but he was never a official member until Sasori died, which opened a spot for him. I think him acting goofy was just a way to keep him off the radar so no one would notice how much of a threat he really is.

philixus1988
July 29, 2007, 03:48 PM
Well personally i dont like the tobi=obito theory but i dont wanna get into that discussion. Anyhoo all i want to predict is that Pein (or pain whatever you wanna call him) and the girl start moving as do the konoha ninjas in the direction of sasuke's scent. When they get close karin senses their chakra and one which is too huge and tells the rest and sasuke realises that it must be naruto. then we see panels with either pein and the girl or itachi and kisame talking and then start moving and the chapter ends at either itachi giving his usual ..... (Response XD) or pein and girl get their first look on naruto from afar.

Hemostrat
July 29, 2007, 05:23 PM
I've been talking to one of my friends who is a translator for WtW subbing group and he says that what Tobi says translates to: "The Sharingan's real power, the power of Uchiha Madara" or "Uchiha Madara's power is the true power of the sharingan". As for people saying that Tobi is claiming "The Sharinga's power, my power, Uchiha Madara" he says "they're ignoring hontou which means really or true. The true power of the sharingan, like that Uchiha Madara's power may work as well. but my power? hell no, it would have to be different. likely "boku no chikara""

vinsanity
July 29, 2007, 06:14 PM
I think that Tobi was the real Akatsuki leader all along but he was just meeting with Pein and BH in secret from the start. Remember, from what we know, Tobi was always around Akatsuki but he was never a official member until Sasori died, which opened a spot for him. I think him acting goofy was just a way to keep him off the radar so no one would notice how much of a threat he really is.

Exactly..and u can see that too in 363, has the 'supposed' death of Tobi doesnt seem to bother the akatsuki members

QMark
July 29, 2007, 07:13 PM
I've been talking to one of my friends who is a translator for WtW subbing group and he says that what Tobi says translates to: "The Sharingan's real power, the power of Uchiha Madara" or "Uchiha Madara's power is the true power of the sharingan". As for people saying that Tobi is claiming "The Sharinga's power, my power, Uchiha Madara" he says "they're ignoring hontou which means really or true. The true power of the sharingan, like that Uchiha Madara's power may work as well. but my power? hell no, it would have to be different. likely "boku no chikara""

No.

From Iwanin on his translation combined with Nihongaeri's translating knowledge as well.


*UPDATED AND VERY IMPORTANT NOTE. If anyone decides to use this translation for scanlating, I suggest the group retain the following explanatory note. Originally, I'd stated the line above was terminated in mid sentence, Nihongaeri's take on it (see his post below) made infinitely more sense than my own (God bless him!). Anyhow, basically what the character is saying is that once Akatsuki achieves its objective, Sharingan shall regain its original, ostensibly more powerful form, and thus, so will he, Uchiha Madara. In other words, among the things which will regain their original form are the Sharingan's true power and his own. 全てが本来の形に戻るのだ。, where 全て=写輪眼の本当の力やうちはマダラの力など。As for whether or not the character speaking is Uchiha Madara, as to this, there is no doubt. This part, このうちはマダラの力, has been construed by some to mean "this power, the power of Uchiha Madara." They're reading it like this: この うちはマダラの力。The way they should be reading it is like this: このうちはマダラの 力。When この precedes the name of a person (in this case, Uchiha Madara), the person referenced is the speaker himself. It's a way for the speaker to indicate that he or she is a real big deal (in his or her mind, anyway). And no, it's not a "vague" sentence, or one which could be read both ways: the way we're indicating here is the only way to interpret the sentence, at least as far as whether the speaker is Uchiha Madara or not. Whether Madara is possessing someone else's body or if Tobi's just a robot through which his voice comes out,is another matter altogether.

There is no 2 ways about it. Tobi = Uchiha Madara.

ornis
July 29, 2007, 07:18 PM
that makes sense, but what do you think, tobi was the real akatsuki leader since the begining? or he became the RAL after he became a complete akatsuki member?

"Tobi," by having this much say in Pein's purpose, seems to be the original "ringleader." Pein probably even requires Tobi's lead. Perhaps helplessly. The ways in which former Akatsuki members have passed show their vulnerable attempts at managing their world. Pein apparently needs to order his life as well. Just with a ratio of all wins to zero losses, Pein has some experience to confide in, but who knows if every goal offers an enjoyable win, who knows if Naruto's fallout will undeniably not coincide with Pein's death? If both sides fall, Pein's boss becomes the victor.



I guess it could be said that Tobi can head the best remaining Akatsuki members under real sovereignty, where no conditions for winning may apply. Such could mean that the few Akatsuki deaths we witnessed were necessary. Immortality alone is propaganda, "fearmongering;" and I bet the fallen members were too entranced in the image to serve a purpose: What to do with that eternity! Anyway, some great yet irresponsible members have handled their "hopeless aspirations" too shabbily for any control to be had---heh, they cleansed Akatsuki of their faults, like catharsis for a hive mind of supervillians:

Orochimaru was too fond of his admiration with Sharingan to clench it unconditionally; fittingly, he "died," spiritually overcome by Sasuke's will/determination/resolve in Oro's own soul-exchanging ritual---a place where Oro was supposed to be dominant.

Sasori let his own whims leave an opening for his parent-mimicking puppets to slay him, as if to reach some peace by being bound with and by them. Puppetry was his life and forever he will rest with his tools supporting his lifeless monument as a token of his fetish. The stabbing fittingly hints to the sign of infinity....

Kakuzu died as a variable, dependent on Naruto's experiment with the RasenShuriken. I'd like to note that Kakuzu never truly insured his immortality but wielded it brutally. He died as a testament to his own unchecked wrath. FRS was, again, only experimental... wild (I'd say feral), incomplete, and unchecked in itself, and Kakuzu's immortality was never truly conclusive---never previously tested for imperfection... what a suitable end.

Hidan---a former channel for pain to be pleasurably shared with the victim of his "religious" ritual---lies immobile, wading in his painful pleasure... without a usual victim to his rite---he is the victim to his own sensations or lack of determination between them. Is he being punished? After receiving Shikamaru's wrath for the death of his sensei, I'd consider Hidan to be "numb." He knows not the border between joy and irritation and understandably can't move to relieve himself form either. Never to be without pain or pleasure, never able to feel anything beyond them, how will he know the difference between them... even between having and not having them? He's "eternally on fire." //And seems even more idiotic if he loves every moment of it. He's engulfed// Wouldn't Dante Alighieri call this a contrapasso?

Deidara... well, I get my quotes on that case later.

QMark
July 29, 2007, 07:19 PM
CLARIFICATION SO YOU CAN STOP WITH ALL THE TOBI IS NOT MADARA DISCUSSION.


*UPDATED AND VERY IMPORTANT NOTE. If anyone decides to use this translation for scanlating, I suggest the group retain the following explanatory note. Originally, I'd stated the line above was terminated in mid sentence, Nihongaeri's take on it (see his post below) made infinitely more sense than my own (God bless him!). Anyhow, basically what the character is saying is that once Akatsuki achieves its objective, Sharingan shall regain its original, ostensibly more powerful form, and thus, so will he, Uchiha Madara. In other words, among the things which will regain their original form are the Sharingan's true power and his own. 全てが本来の形に戻るのだ。, where 全て=写輪眼の本当の力やうちはマダラの力など。As for whether or not the character speaking is Uchiha Madara, as to this, there is no doubt. This part, このうちはマダラの力, has been construed by some to mean "this power, the power of Uchiha Madara." They're reading it like this: この うちはマダラの力。The way they should be reading it is like this: このうちはマダラの 力。When この precedes the name of a person (in this case, Uchiha Madara), the person referenced is the speaker himself. It's a way for the speaker to indicate that he or she is a real big deal (in his or her mind, anyway). And no, it's not a "vague" sentence, or one which could be read both ways: the way we're indicating here is the only way to interpret the sentence, at least as far as whether the speaker is Uchiha Madara or not. Whether Madara is possessing someone else's body or if Tobi's just a robot through which his voice comes out,is another matter altogether.


sorry, but this font was far too large and the other word... you can guess why ;)

GPZrag
July 29, 2007, 07:19 PM
I've been talking to one of my friends who is a translator for WtW subbing group and he says that what Tobi says translates to: "The Sharingan's real power, the power of Uchiha Madara" or "Uchiha Madara's power is the true power of the sharingan". As for people saying that Tobi is claiming "The Sharinga's power, my power, Uchiha Madara" he says "they're ignoring hontou which means really or true. The true power of the sharingan, like that Uchiha Madara's power may work as well. but my power? hell no, it would have to be different. likely "boku no chikara""

yeah yeah, that may be true however where will be the point in showing us Tobi's Sharingan, i mean whatever he was saying about THE SAHRINGAN i think it obviusly is refered to his own sharingan don't you think?

Decorus
July 29, 2007, 07:24 PM
I'm fairly certain you can't defeat the Obito = Tobi cult with logic and proper translations. They have this unshakable faith in thier belief's even when its painfully obvious they are wrong. I especially like the new he's Obito, because Madara is possesing his corpse. How exactly would that make him Obito? That would merely make Madara a spirit in a corpse, as far as I know once your dead you aren't in your corpse anymore unless your undead and even then reanimated corpses typically are missing that which make the person a person. No soul = no sale.

haruka9
July 29, 2007, 08:05 PM
i read from the previous discussions that some members already guessed that maybe the real Akatsuki leader is Uchiha Madara. When his name was first spoken by the Kyuubi, I was convinced that he might be dead. But when these members mentioned it in the previous thread, I couldn't help but consider their point. I guess Kishi won't mention such a name without a crucial role. And now, he's finally appeared in this chapter! But not mention, he is in Tobi's form.

After the Deidara's artistic self-explosion, Tobi just vanished. I from the start was suspicious about it. There weren't any specific details regarding his whereabouts. We can assume that he's dead because of his appearance. Even Zetsu reported about it as his death. But since we, readers can read between the lines and are keen about the details, we were suspicious. I knew he can't be dead but I have to admit that I have no idea what he'd be.

Tobi being a total goofball may just be his frontal image. Maybe he doesn't really want the other Akatsuki members to be intimidated by having a common Akatsuki "cool and bad ass" image. Besides, maybe he wants to observe his members himself and not just by Pein's observations.

Kishi really made my jaw drop at the last pages of thus chapter. He's such a great mangaka.

And about the Obito and Tobi being only just one person is a theory popular among us fans. I don't know how I'll place myself on this theory because of my separated viewes regarding this. But here are my points:

Obito and Tobi are possibly just one person because:
1. Notice the close relationship of their names: T-O-B-I wheres the other one is O-B-I-T-O. The name, Tobi is spelled backwards from the name Obito, and that the extra letter "O" is just omitted. If we read between this line, maybe Kishi is already giving us a possible hint with the backward spelling of their names.

2. Tobi is wearing a mask which means that his face is still a total mystery. Knowing that Naruto is a story full of surprises, I guess the revelation of his face might leave all of us flabbergasted. But notice the form of his mask: Only one eye is shown. The other one is hidden. Knowing that OBITO has given his left eye to Kakashi, this possibly means that TOBI only has a right eye. This explains why his mask has only a hole on the right part. It's pointless to put another hole on the left part because his left eye was already gone.

3. Tobi being a goofball is a reflection of Obito's personality back when he was a genin. Maybe he, being a serious and stern Akatsuki leader is an alter-ego.

4. Let's check their table. The Kyuubi showed up in Konoha when The Fourth was already a Hokage. And Obito even existed way before it happened; The Fourth was even a jonin back then. IF somehow, Obito survived from the accident, then the meeting of the Kyuubi and Obito (now being older) is possible.

5. Maybe, Tobi is not yet showing his face because we, readers already know who he is (if he is really Obito) and Kishi wants to put more mysteries on his face and drop this bomb-like surprise later.

6. Uchiha Madara might be Obito's real name.

Why Obito is not Uchiha Madara/Tobi:
1. Their names are totally different so this means that they are totally different person.

2. We know that Obito died in that accident.

There is it guys. I already explained all the possible logical reasons as to whether or not is Obito is Tobi. But if they are just one person then this means that Obito is actually Uchiha Madara and that TOBI is just a code name. But then again, these are just possible logical explanations. It's really up to us on where to stand regarding this theory.

On the other hand, despite this controversial theory, at least we know that Tobi is the REAL AKATSUKI LEADER and that the is a SHARINGAN USER.

And last but not the least, the last line is also controversial "Pain.... You...." I have no idea what this means but I guess this last line is a hint of a very crucial part of the story.

Neuroff
July 29, 2007, 08:11 PM
Obito and Tobi are possibly just one person because:
1. Notice the close relationship of their names: T-O-B-I wheres the other one is O-B-I-T-O. The name, Tobi is spelled backwards from the name Obito, and that the extra letter "O" is just omitted. If we read between this line, maybe Kishi is already giving us a possible hint with the backward spelling of their names.
Looking at their names in English is pointless, there's a whole extra character in Japanese.


2. Tobi is wearing a mask which means that his face is still a total mystery. Knowing that Naruto is a story full of surprises, I guess the revelation of his face might leave all of us flabbergasted. But notice the form of his mask: Only one eye is shown. The other one is hidden. Knowing that OBITO has given his left eye to Kakashi, this possibly means that TOBI only has a right eye. This explains why his mask has only a hole on the right part. It's pointless to put another hole on the left part because his left eye was already gone.
And his right side was supposedly crushed. He shouldn't have any eyes.


3. Tobi being a goofball is a reflection of Obito's personality back when he was a genin. Maybe he, being a serious and stern Akatsuki leader is an alter-ego.
Their personalities are nothing alike. I don't even get how people think this.


4. Let's check their table. The Kyuubi showed up in Konoha when The Fourth was already a Hokage. And Obito even existed way before it happened; The Fourth was even a jonin back then. IF somehow, Obito survived from the accident, then the meeting of the Kyuubi and Obito (now being older) is possible.
The Kyuubi thought Madara was POWERFUL. Obito would have had a few months MAX to improve his skills ridiculously. Not possible.


5. Maybe, Tobi is not yet showing his face because we, readers already know who he is (if he is really Obito) and Kishi wants to put more mysteries on his face and drop this bomb-like surprise later.
More like Tobi didn't show his face because Akatsuki would have known he was Uchiha Madara.


6. Uchiha Madara might be Obito's real name.
No, his name is Obito.

Neuroff
July 29, 2007, 08:29 PM
Maybe, If the Tengu King theory is correct, then Uchiha Madara, being the heir of a demon, have some kind of immortality and the Tobi=Madara thing is possible. But, if that theory is wrong or turns out to be false, Uchiha Madara lived in the days of the foundation of Konoha, so he's dead and therefore he can't be Tobi, leaving space for an Obito=Tobi, maybe searching for somethig left behind by Madara, being it Madara's Power...
Again, NOTHING is said about when Madara lived. Where do you guys get this stuff.

maximxuk
July 29, 2007, 08:46 PM
Did anyone notice that Tobi's Akatsuki ring is not there anymore?? If Tobi is the leader how come Deidara, Zetsu, and Pein were giving hime orders.

strongarm85
July 29, 2007, 09:00 PM
Again, NOTHING is said about when Madara lived. Where do you guys get this stuff.

As much as it pains me to admit this Neuroff is absolutely right about this.

First of all, let me just say that the Tengu theory, while being "supposedly" well researched draws connections with the Manga where there are no connections to be made. The only thing it really had going for it was that it was well written, but even considering that all that theory really amounted to was junk and this chapter just disproved it.

So anyhow The Statue at the Valley of the end (that was facing the 1st Hokage) is not Madara. Not only that, but unless Madara is immortal it is impossible for him to have been the "first" Uchiha. Even if he where, the Uchiha district was basically a small town in and of itself, for there to even be that many Uchiha would suggest that the clan probably predates the creation of Konoha by several generations at the very least.

murani-san
July 29, 2007, 09:02 PM
I don't know if it has been said yet as I have only read the last few pages of discussion. Obito was a good natured guy so I don't see how getting crushed by a rock and getting buried underneath a cave of rocks could have changed him never minding the fact he would have suffocated and/or starved to death since he was buried underneath all that.

I think the text "The machine is ripened" means that the vessel that they intend to house all the bijuus is ready and they just need Sasuke's eyes to control the bijuus to their will.

strongarm85
July 29, 2007, 09:04 PM
Did anyone notice that Tobi's Akatsuki ring is not there anymore?? If Tobi is the leader how come Deidara, Zetsu, and Pein were giving hime orders.

Tobi still has his ring, check 363 near the end of the chapter where there shadowy figure is standing. It looks like there is a gap between his index finger and his thumb, thats actually Tobi's ring. He wore it on his left thumb.

Coincidentally the Kanji on Tobi's ring can mean (among other things) King. Foreshadowing anyone?

ridemypony22
July 29, 2007, 09:25 PM
strongarm85 is right.....try the upper left corner of page2 chapter 263

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/02/

Leos~
July 29, 2007, 09:52 PM
No.

From Iwanin on his translation combined with Nihongaeri's translating knowledge as well.


*UPDATED AND VERY IMPORTANT NOTE. If anyone decides to use this translation for scanlating, I suggest the group retain the following explanatory note. Originally, I'd stated the line above was terminated in mid sentence, Nihongaeri's take on it (see his post below) made infinitely more sense than my own (God bless him!). Anyhow, basically what the character is saying is that once Akatsuki achieves its objective, Sharingan shall regain its original, ostensibly more powerful form, and thus, so will he, Uchiha Madara. In other words, among the things which will regain their original form are the Sharingan's true power and his own. 全てが本来の形に戻るのだ。, where 全て=写輪眼の本当の力やうちはマダラの力など。As for whether or not the character speaking is Uchiha Madara, as to this, there is no doubt. This part, このうちはマダラの力, has been construed by some to mean "this power, the power of Uchiha Madara." They're reading it like this: この うちはマダラの力。The way they should be reading it is like this: このうちはマダラの 力。When この precedes the name of a person (in this case, Uchiha Madara), the person referenced is the speaker himself. It's a way for the speaker to indicate that he or she is a real big deal (in his or her mind, anyway). And no, it's not a "vague" sentence, or one which could be read both ways: the way we're indicating here is the only way to interpret the sentence, at least as far as whether the speaker is Uchiha Madara or not. Whether Madara is possessing someone else's body or if Tobi's just a robot through which his voice comes out,is another matter altogether.

There is no 2 ways about it. Tobi = Uchiha Madara.

There's no way to argue with it, this last chapter reveals the much debated identity of "Tobi" to be the also much debated Uchiha Madara; who is the true akatsuki leader, pulling all the strings in order to attain the true power of the sharingan. And for those people who insist that Madara is old, possibly even the first Uchiha; I'm not sure where this comes from as the only mention of him in the manga untill now was from a comment that the Kyubi made, a comment which leads us to assume they've met.... and the only time that we know for sure that Kyubi could have come into contact with him was during his attack on the leaf village a mere 15 years prior to this current time in the manga. That's a reasonable amount of time for Madara to be around. And if Madara is the third mangekyo sharingan user that Itachi was refering to when he slaughtered the Uchiha clan (the other two being Itachi himself and Sasuke-if he manages to attaine it), which would make sense given Madara's position, then that would just me more proof.

Xzeno
July 29, 2007, 10:04 PM
I also don't think that Tobi=Obito. if you look back on Chapter 243 where Obito is crushed by the rock you'll see that his right side was crushed, so that would mean that he gave kakashi his left eyeball. In the pic where it shows Tobi's sharingan he has a right eye.

Decorus
July 29, 2007, 10:13 PM
Since we know that Itachi and Sasuke mentioned there have been other people with different Sharingan, but it is extremely rare, that puts Madara somewhere at or below the age of Itachi and Sasuke's father. Also there is no evidence that the Uchiha clan predates the founding of Konoha. Even still all of the Hokage except the 3rd died either in thier 20's or 30s and possibly early 40s for the First Hokage. This does not make Konoha very old at all i would guess anywhere from 60-100 years old.

Ukun
July 29, 2007, 10:15 PM
You know, if Obito's entire right side was crushed, then that would mean he should've died instantly from having his brain crushed which means he wouldn't have live long enough to tell Rin to give his left eye to Kakashi. Since he was still alive, that would mean he wasn't completely crushed, meaning that the right side of his face, and inevitably his right eye, must have remained intact.