The Zero Point Breakthrough (Spoilers)

[kirimi]

I decided to start a new thread on this topic because I'm sure there are a lot of other questions on how exactly this thing works... I know I was very confused for a long time.

To start with, this is continued from the Mafia gathering thread...


I just noticed something about the zero point break-through technique

were all the Vongola bosses able to perform this technique? Since in the sky ring battle they were saying that the ninth performed the technique on Xanxus thus encasing him in ice. But in earlier chapters they were saying that only the 1st Vongola boss was able to perform it, While Tsuna was training. Can someone elaborate on this?


I think the only one who was able to REALLY master it was the 1st... So, the others might be able to do it as well, but not as perfect as the 1st and Tsuna, since their fighting style is the same...


I always thought The first invented it and therefore has all the Fame for using it. Everyone else is just copying his technique (ironically Xanxcus blames Tsuna for that while he recklessly copies nr. 2 and 7)

but Tsuna is better anyway because he found the first edition out by himself and he invented the revised stance ^^

Well, remember how Reborn was very preplexed that Xanxus knew how the zero point breakthrough was supposed to look like and what it did? It was only Reborn and Basil who said nobody could do it since the First. Perhaps Reborn just didn't know the 9th was able to perform the zero point breakthrough. Apart from the 9th, Xanxus and Squalo, maybe nobody knew at all.

However, I think that the other Bosses may not have mastered the Zero Point Breakthrough, whether in secret or not. If you think about it, the Zero Point Breakthrough is a defensive move. It's supposed to absorb an attack. If the Boss were the crazy attack everything type (like Xanxus), they may not bother with learning a defensive mode.

[Koen]

Well I read the chapters so fast that I mostly forgot the importance behind the zero point breakthrough (I'll call it zpb). But I think that reborn mentioned something about the bossess mastering the zpb on their own way. But it was considered that the first was the only one who mastered the zpb on his own perfect way.

The fact xanxus knew about zpb was nothing to be suprised about. Since all bossess mastered zpb on their own way, though different way (xanxus only knew the ninth his zpb technique). I think that's the reason why xanxus couldn't defeat the zpb of tsuna. Because reborn himself said that tsuna had to find his way to master it, and was asking himself if he (since he's destined to have the gloves and to have the same fighting skill) could master it on a perfect way -> (reborn said it wasn't exactly a technique, it was more a condition to find out your own technique in that condition)

Now let me predict or talk ahead to things I came up too: as we know zpb is powerfull but somehow xanxus escaped it more than once. I think that the perfect zpb doesn't even allow the ice to be melted. So tsuna succeeded in mastering it, but he needs to train perfecting it. Maybe he'll do it later on, but maybe the perfect zpb (like it's said that the 1st was the only one be able to do) doesn't allow the ice to be melted.

[Ueda]

Remember that the ice was melted JUST because they had the 6 Guardian rings. Maybe the flame the rings produce are stronger thant the zpb... I wonder how strong is the zbp using the new version of the gloves...

[alexlw92]

jw, if u can zpb is the opposite of the dying will flame, and the rings flames are even stronger than the dying will flame, would that create an even more frozen zpb ice? or is that even possible?

[kirimi]

The flames from the Rings ARE Dying Will Flames, so I don't think the Ring flames are necessarily stronger by themselves. But, the key was having all 7 Vongola Rings together (as Ueda said).

Question though. How did Xanxus get out of his icy prison from the 9th Boss? Do the Half Vongola Rings have similar powers?


The fact xanxus knew about zpb was nothing to be suprised about. Since all bossess mastered zpb on their own way, though different way (xanxus only knew the ninth his zpb technique).

From the text, both Reborn and Basil WERE surprised at first that Xanxus knew about the ZPB. And, they DID say nobody could perform the ZPB except the First. So, what you're saying is contradicting what's in the manga.

Second, it's important to note that Tsuna's Revised ZPB is not a freezing power. Only the First Edition is a freezing power.

[bunshindattebayo]

Okay,about the name:"ZPB FIRST EDITION".
I always want to know if there any other edition besides that?
Well,I think the first edition belongs to shodaime(1st boss),and maybe the other bosses have created their own edition of ZPB

[Koen]

The flames from the Rings ARE Dying Will Flames, so I don't think the Ring flames are necessarily stronger by themselves. But, the key was having all 7 Vongola Rings together (as Ueda said).

Question though. How did Xanxus get out of his icy prison from the 9th Boss? Do the Half Vongola Rings have similar powers?



From the text, both Reborn and Basil WERE surprised at first that Xanxus knew about the ZPB. And, they DID say nobody could perform the ZPB except the First. So, what you're saying is contradicting what's in the manga.

Second, it's important to note that Tsuna's Revised ZPB is not a freezing power. Only the First Edition is a freezing power.

No I don't say that in the manga it was said that you shouldn't be suprised about it. I only say that if you think it was only the 1st technique and it seems the 9th frozen xanxus with the ZBP you shouldn't be suprised of xanxus knowing about zbp.

They thought that only the 1st was able to perform it. Btw. If reborn and basil knew about zbp during training and the fact the 1st made that technique, I think that they were more suprised about the fact xanxus knew how zbp was looking (assume you know yourself about zbp, I can't understand why xanxus wouldn't know). Lots of vongola members knew about the zbp and the 1st (if basil and reborn know), but I think they were suprised that xanxus knew how it really looked and tsuna revealed why (xanxus had scars because of the 9th performing zbp)
[hr]

Okay,about the name:"ZPB FIRST EDITION".
I always want to know if there any other edition besides that?
Well,I think the first edition belongs to shodaime(1st boss),and maybe the other bosses have created their own edition of ZPB

Well I was thinking the same, but I believe tsuna won't have a zbp that's the same as the other bossess (he fights with gloves and uses zbp with gloves). I was thinking more about an evolution to perfection. tsuna succeeded in performin it on his own way, but I think he didn't acquire it perfectly (the 1st did and tsna will)

[DrunkDragon]

Also remember that at first when Tsuna was performing his zero point break, it wasn't yet perfected or complete. Since he was still receiving damage from Xanxus's flame. It wasn't until later in the fight that Tsuna revised the zero point break technique to be able to both absorb the dying will flame and make it his own, thus powering himself up even more. We later find out about the first edition when Tsuna freezes Xanxus's hands and then his whole body.

From the earlier posts Its possible that each boss was able to perform the first condition to achieving the zero break point, which was to have a negative dying will, a defensive technique. From there they were able to combine the first condition with their own weapons and have a different offensive technique than the First Boss other than Tsuna since he had a similar weapon as the first, his X Gloves. Its even possible that the other bosses were able to perform the First Edition of the technique but differently because of their fighting style. Ex. the 7th's gun could shoot bullets that could freeze the target at impact(guess). and the 9th boss was able to perform the First Edition too, since he froze Xanxus not sure how though.

[Rainier]

I have a question, the ZPB only allows you to absorb atks?
For Example, when Tsuna used the ZPB he went normal(with no flame), then ZPB mode? Or he just went normal because he had gone ZPB and returned to Rabuke state?

[kirimi]

Also remember that at first when Tsuna was performing his zero point break, it wasn't yet perfected or complete. Since he was still receiving damage from Xanxus's flame. It wasn't until later in the fight that Tsuna revised the zero point break technique to be able to both absorb the dying will flame and make it his own, thus powering himself up even more.

Yup, I agree with this analysis. Tsuna did complete the ZPB "condition" just not his own technique. I think that at first, he was still receiving damage because Xanxus's flame is too powerful. If the ZPB absorbs damage by creating a hole, if the hole is not big enough, he would still receive damage. (Dunno if that makes sense.) But, when Tsuna powered himself up, he is able to absorb more damage, and use the extra power as his own.



From the earlier posts Its possible that each boss was able to perform the first condition to achieving the zero break point, which was to have a negative dying will, a defensive technique.

Somehow, I still think not all the bosses could achieve the ZPB, especially those whose weapons are clearly attack-based (knives, guns, fork? LOL). Otherwise, Reborn and Basil wouldn't make such a big deal about it being used only by the First.


I have a question, the ZPB only allows you to absorb atks?
For Example, when Tsuna used the ZPB he went normal(with no flame), then ZPB mode? Or he just went normal because he had gone ZPB and returned to Rabuke state?

The negative state and the positive state looks exactly the same. It's just there is an instant of neutral state in-between. When in negative state though, Tsuna can absorb damage, but he can also perform other negative state things, like freeze the flames (first edition) or increase his own flames (revised edition, see ch130).

The rebuke state is now called the Hyper Dying Will. Hyper Dying Will has both positive and negative states. Normal Dying Will also has both positive and negative states. In Normal mode, Tsuna's eyes go white and the energy pours out wildly. In hyper mode, Tsuna remains aware of his surroundings and controls the power output of his dying will better. This is what I understand so far...

Hit by Dying Will Bullet -> Positive Normal Dying Will -> Positive Hyper Dying Will -> Zero Point Breakthrough -> Negative Hyper Dying Will

Hit by Rebuke Bullet -> Positive Hyper Dying Will

So, the Rebuke bullet only cuts out the Normal Dying Will part. Tsuna's first and second stage of training during the Ring battles was to get him to go into Hyper mode without the Rebuke bullet. (Basil can do this too.)

Someone tell me if this doesn't sound right?

[Rainier]

Oh thank you xD

[Ueda]

Kirimi is right... And Reborn doesn't use the Rebuke Bullet cause Tsuna wouldn't be able to move properly for two weeks... That's why he made Tsuna train with Basil, so he could use the Hyper Dying Will without hurting himself. Now, we don't even see Tsuna in the Positive Normal Dying will anymore...

[Slashout]

yeah I was thinking about that too, we don't see anymore, and he is always fighting with clothes now :p.
Before he was mostly naked, maybe the new hyper dying will let's Tsuna keep his clothes, for more coolness effect? XD.

[Rainier]

Lmao, someone misses the Flesh xDDDDDD

Nah, Tsuna looks way badass with his vest uniform. I'm buying one just to see if it looks as cool in me.

[Slashout]

Haha :D.
Yeah he is way more cool like that. Plus his previous look was not compatible with winter battles :D.

[kirimi]

LOL. Isn't that just his school uniform though? :D

The Hyper Dying Will mode doesn't remove all his clothes because it only removes the internal limiters. The Normal Dying Will removes the external limiters. Not that this should make sense, but it's manga. Take it as it is. XD

[Rainier]

Yeah it is xD
Man, I'd kill for a school uniform like that, sadly, the suit is too ''formal'' for my country, plus is way ''too hot'', that's what my Mother says anyways. (It's kind of true, we live in the Caribbean). BUT! I DON'T CARE! AS SOON AS I BUY THE VEST I'LL USE IT!
>_< *Fanboy*

LOL

[rankgain]

Yeah it is xD
Man, I'd kill for a school uniform like that, sadly, the suit is too ''formal'' for my country, plus is way ''too hot'', that's what my Mother says anyways. (It's kind of true, we live in the Caribbean). BUT! I DON'T CARE! AS SOON AS I BUY THE VEST I'LL USE IT!
>_< *Fanboy*

LOL

Yeah, Tsuna's outfit is pretty cool, even though he's supposed to be this scrawny kid. >.> And has anyone else noticed that even after all his training, he hasn't gotten any stronger physically, as in muscles and stuff? Well, this IS a manga, and characters' apparences never change. =/

[Ueda]

Yeah, Tsuna's outfit is pretty cool, even though he's supposed to be this scrawny kid. >.> And has anyone else noticed that even after all his training, he hasn't gotten any stronger physically, as in muscles and stuff? Well, this IS a manga, and characters' apparences never change. =/

Actually, reborn trains Tsuna so his flame can be stronger, not his body... =)... without the dying will mode, Tsuna is still an average teenage boy. =)

[Slashout]

Yeah, Tsuna's outfit is pretty cool, even though he's supposed to be this scrawny kid. >.> And has anyone else noticed that even after all his training, he hasn't gotten any stronger physically, as in muscles and stuff? Well, this IS a manga, and characters' apparences never change. =/



Indeed :(.
One of the thing I loved in ES 21 for exemple, was to see that even if it's just a little, you can see the character maturing, mentally (same as KHR) and physically, he became a bit taller, his stature became a bit more impressive, well you can see his growth trhough the chapters.
While in KHR, I just checked the first chapter, and one of the last chapter, and I can't see any change at all :(.

[DrunkDragon]

sad but true T_T, Though we do see Tsuna mature mentally and his attitude changes when in hyper-dying will flame mode :D

[Ueda]

Indeed :(.
One of the thing I loved in ES 21 for exemple, was to see that even if it's just a little, you can see the character maturing, mentally (same as KHR) and physically, he became a bit taller, his stature became a bit more impressive, well you can see his growth trhough the chapters.
While in KHR, I just checked the first chapter, and one of the last chapter, and I can't see any change at all :(.

I think it all depends of the author's style... For example, in Bleach, we see Kurosaki having that huge amunt of training, but his body is the same as in the first chapter. Same goes to Zoro and Luffy, from One Piece. But, if you take Naruto (the character's growth) and ES21, you'll see the characters developing physically. I think it's cool both ways... =)

[Rainier]

Well, the Mangaka in this Manga is way more original than others....characters...actually....wear....different...clothes.....everyday. LOL.

But I also think that Reborn only train his flame, the dying will does the rest.

[Oni_James]

that's not true, Tsuna has evolved from the start, when he was shown in the first chapter/episode, he was so silly, and was always shouting and crying, in the lasts chapters, even if he wasn't in Hyper Dying Will mode, he was serious, and the same goes for the other manga characters (except for Ichigo, he always remains the same) but if you see Luffy in Ennies Lobby or at now when he's chasing Moria, he seems a lot more serious than in the first chapters, even his face is like more mature, it's true he's an idiot, but he's evolved from the start

[Ueda]

that's not true, Tsuna has evolved from the start, when he was shown in the first chapter/episode, he was so silly, and was always shouting and crying, in the lasts chapters, even if he wasn't in Hyper Dying Will mode, he was serious, and the same goes for the other manga characters (except for Ichigo, he always remains the same) but if you see Luffy in Ennies Lobby or at now when he's chasing Moria, he seems a lot more serious than in the first chapters, even his face is like more mature, it's true he's an idiot, but he's evolved from the start


We are no talking about mentally changing, we are talking about physical changes. Like building up some muscles, or growing up. Luffy may be more serious, but his traces haven't changed at all. The same goes for Tsuna. They may have grown mentally, but physically, they are the same as when the manga started.

[Rainier]

I like Tsuna that way anyways, I hope he never changes, lol.

[Acalia]

Well, I believe Tsuna did change physically - he was strong enough to carry wounded Gokudera.
And now he looks taller that at the beginning of series.
He has better stamina - remember when he was hit by Tazaru's attack - the old no-good-Tsuna would definately pass out from the blow.

His appearance is more solid now. He doesn't look like scared mouse, he's more confident even in normal life(for example: when he walks) and he has gained more masculinity :)

Changes weren't extreme but day by day - Tsuna is getting closer to be the X boss. After all it was impossible to change in 10(ok, more - 15...16?) days of intensive training...

[Ueda]

Well, I believe Tsuna did change physically - he was strong enough to carry wounded Gokudera.
And now he looks taller that at the beginning of series.
He has better stamina - remember when he was hit by Tazaru's attack - the old no-good-Tsuna would definately pass out from the blow.

His appearance is more solid now. He doesn't look like scared mouse, he's more confident even in normal life(for example: when he walks) and he has gained more masculinity :)

Changes weren't extreme but day by day - Tsuna is getting closer to be the X boss. After all it was impossible to change in 10(ok, more - 15...16?) days of intensive training...


I think the same way, too, but, what I mean is that the changes were more in his attitude and his another conditions (remember, a marathon runner may appear weak, but he has a lot of stamina) than in his body itself. Maybe he grew up, but everyone else did too, so, it's almost undetectable. His endurance is better too, but you gotta remember that reborn did train (tutored!?) Tsuna for almost 1 year and a half before the Rings battle. I think Tsuna grew up mentally, have more stamina and more endurance, thanks to the training, but I don't think he changed his main physical characteristics...

[DrunkDragon]

off-topic: You guys cant forget the part when Nana (Tsuna's Mom) was commenting how Tsuna was starting to resemble his dad, this happened when he was going to school and was going to fight Xanxus later that day. I think this shows that he is starting to mature more compared to the beginning chapters.

[Raijatsu]

:offtopic2: well it could be a change in the mangaka's style but I thin Tsuna also looks slightly more mature

[Ueda]

The traces of the mangaka always change... =) It's like that in every manga. They drawings always evolve. At least I think so...

[yanniv]

Yeah, I can agree with that, Ueda. The drawing styles of most mangaka's get better as their manga goes on.

It's a good thing.

[Koen]

Can someone put some picture:

tsuna beginning vs current tsuna

[Impel Down]

By current Tsuna, do you mean not in his full mode (Rebuke, VR X Gloves)?

[Rainier]

Yeah it is xD
Man, I'd kill for a school uniform like that, sadly, the suit is too ''formal'' for my country, plus is way ''too hot'', that's what my Mother says anyways. (It's kind of true, we live in the Caribbean). BUT! I DON'T CARE! AS SOON AS I BUY THE VEST I'LL USE IT!
>_< *Fanboy*

LOL


OMG I JUST GOT IT! (well, it was yesterday) BUT TODAY I TRIED IT! AND IT LOOKS SO GOOD.
I don't want to brag about it, but it really looks nice, specially if you are skinny (Im not that skinny btw), because it makes you look like you have a few pounds more <--- which is not that good if you are like me, with a few extras, lol.

But it really looks nice, really nice.

~ Please keep this on-topic, guys. If you want to discuss the uniforms worn in the series, feel free to start another thread. ^_^ Thanks! Off-topic posts deleted.

[JuuDaime]

I've been reading the manga, but can anyone explain to me the whole hyper dying will and negative and zpb, and positie and all that stuff? *nub*-___-

[kirimi]

Have you read this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=542672#post542672)? If you still don't understand it, feel free to ask for further clarification. Please be a little bit more specific. :)

[Impel Down]

I'll admit, I understand the positive and negative thing, but the negative just doesn't seem to absorb that much damage, to me.