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View Full Version : Discussion How does Lucci compare to the Shichibukai, Yonkou or higher level Marines?



hollowfied
October 15, 2007, 10:47 PM
Well we know that Rob Lucci is the most powerful CP9 member, which is the most powerful CP9 in history. However, how does he compare to say Aokiji, Shanks or Mihawk? Considering how Luffy got owned against Aokiji, do you think Lucci stands a chance against any of the more powerful figures in the OP world?

Also its been stated that Lucci can survive a buster call. If thats the case, then the Buster call won't even scratch White beard's crew, seeing how his crew has at least 8+ members at Lucci's level. Its funny, seeing how the Buster call is the ultimate weapon the WG has, and it doesn't really amount to much against formidable opponents, does it?

What does everyone think?

mugen
October 15, 2007, 11:05 PM
what :rofl
8 guys on Lucci's level
where you get that, listen Lucci may not be the strongest but lets says he is definitely shichibukai level.
I don't need to explain that, its common sense

hollowfied
October 15, 2007, 11:28 PM
White beard's crew has 15 divisions, I'm pretty sure only a very powerful pirate can be a division commander ;) (eg, Ace and Marco)

Whitebeard himself is definitely way above Lucci's level.

mugen
October 15, 2007, 11:35 PM
well whitebeard being stronger than Lucci is a given
and where did it say White beard has 15 divisions?
and yeah maybe 2 but over that i doubt WhiteBeard has nakama of Lucci's level
Lucci however has my vote that he could beat Blackbeard
I mean he basicaly is too fast and is a close combat fighter
even if Blackbeard took away his df powers I doubt Blackbeard could break Luccis tekkai

hollowfied
October 15, 2007, 11:39 PM
In One Piece Yellow it has been revealed that the crew has 1600 members.


The Whitebeard Pirates are divided into 16 divisions that are then led by a high ranking Whitebeard subordinate. This pirate crew includes Portgas D. Ace, the Second Division Commander. Blackbeard was formerly a member of this crew in the 2nd Division but left to form his own crew after killing 4th Division Commander Sacchi.

I'm wrong about the 15 divisions =P

Its 16 not 15..haha ><

Absolutio
October 16, 2007, 10:26 AM
is there a scan of yellow already?

king_crimson-
October 16, 2007, 12:39 PM
uhm, lucci doesn't fight with a seastone weapon...taking this into consideration i would say that he's weaker than the yonkos, weaker than aokiji, and weaker than mihawk and ener..and most likely weaker than garp and sengoku too...of course weaker than ace and bleackbeard too(actually, i think that bleackbeard is the strongest of all right now, his power is just too great, speed, endurance, strength, it's all useless if you're sucked in the darkness and crushed...and you can't escape from the gravity of a black hole..)

as for the shichibukai we've seen until now, it's only a matter of knowing their powers and weaknesses...for example, if lucci were to fight crocodile, without knowing about his weakness(water), i would say that he has absolutely no chance of winning...on the other hand, if he do know, than i think he would crush crocodile without much problems...

as for the others, we haven't seen either moria or kuma or doflamingo fight, so i dunno how lucci compare to them...

Impel Down
October 16, 2007, 02:59 PM
I would put Lucci at Shichibukai level, although the WG seemed to be more shocked about him losing a fight than Crocodile, so either Crocodile was considered a weaker Shichibukai or Lucci is a notch above Shichibukai. Think about it, as a CP9, he's expected to be able to do more and get more done, as well as be flawless. Shichibukai are not given such expectations, so maybe in the WG's eyes, Lucci is stronger, but in reality, he may be equal.

Imitorar
October 16, 2007, 08:47 PM
I would put Lucci at Shichibukai level, although the WG seemed to be more shocked about him losing a fight than Crocodile, so either Crocodile was considered a weaker Shichibukai or Lucci is a notch above Shichibukai. Think about it, as a CP9, he's expected to be able to do more and get more done, as well as be flawless. Shichibukai are not given such expectations, so maybe in the WG's eyes, Lucci is stronger, but in reality, he may be equal.

I don't think it's that the World Government thinks that Lucci is actually stronger then the Shichibukai, just that they can get more use out of him because he is their soldier, not their ally, like the Shichibukai are. Lucci takes orders, the Shichibukai pretend to and actually only do what suits them. The World Government didn't even expect most of them to attend the meeting at Marijois. So it's not that he's stronger, just more useful. I'd say that Lucci's a little less then equal to the Shichibukai. Because if he were equal, Moria would have been a bit more phased at Kuma's mentioning Lucci's defeat. But it's a hair's difference, any fight between them would be EXTREMELY close, close enough for the tide to be turned by a clever bit of strategy on the part of either party. It's an only barely significant gap, is what I mean. And I don't mean Crocodile-level Shichibukai. Crocodile had a very low bounty, for a Shichibukai, I don't think he was as strong as the others. He's probably the most recent one, and thus, the World Government let him join because he'd done something very great, like how they let Blackbeard join. Maybe because he raided a small Marine base, or something, and demanded entry to the Shichibukai, or they asked him instead of raising his bounty.

hollowfied
October 16, 2007, 10:00 PM
I have a feeling that Crocodile has been Shichibukai for sometime, seeing how he needed quite some time to build up the Baroque Works, and his own reputation as a hero in Alabasta.

Absolutio
October 17, 2007, 08:12 AM
it doesnt mean that he was not the most recent one..

Impel Down
October 17, 2007, 10:15 AM
Maybe the WG just thought more of Lucci because they knew his history, you know, the "I was 13 and killed over 500 strong fighters" thing. It's not like they can know a lot about the Shichibukai's pasts of power.

king_crimson-
October 17, 2007, 12:05 PM
i don't understand why people consider crocodile weak just because he had a low bounty...first, didn't oda said in an sbs that if he wasn't a shichibukai, his bounty would have been at least doubled?...second, if you fight against him without knowing his power, unless you somehow know how to deal with a logia fruit user, you wouldn't stand a chance at all...

take lucci, if he were to fight crocodile without knowing about crocodile's power, he would be completely owned...

even moria even with oz, would stand no chance against crocodile if he doesn't know about crocodile's power(and weakness..)...

Impel Down
October 17, 2007, 12:20 PM
Well, I don't think Lucci would lose to Crocodile immideately. Against Luffy, he showed to already be extremely intelligent, and with his speed and whatnot, he could avade attacks until he figures things out and coats his body in blood or something.

And Moria may not be able to beat Crocodile, but I dunno. It's not like he doesn't have access to plenty of things on TB that could harden sand.

Franckie
October 17, 2007, 01:44 PM
Rob Lucci is the most powerful member in all of CP9's history, which is probably a few centuries to say the least. Being as that is the case, then it means that Lucci is the World Government's strongest fighter outside of people like Aokiji and Mihawk. His defeat is the major reason as to why Luffy had his bounty tripled like how it was roughly tripled after Luffy defeated Crocodile.

Luffy barely bested Lucci, and that says a lot about the man's physical prowess considering Luffy is a monster in terms of strength. Likewise, the power progression in One Piece is pretty standard and hasn't really deviated from anything you'll see in other shounen series. Lucci would definately be far more powerful than someone like Crocodile provided he has a means to counter Croc's ability to avoid damage by turning into sand.

CP9's most powerful member throughout its history certainly possesses the qualifications of what would place him on the same level as the remaining Shichibukai easily.

Impel Down
October 17, 2007, 02:50 PM
Well, we can see more leveling with government agents than with the Shichibukai. They aren't ranked, given power levels, or anything, whereas with people like Lucci, we have where they stand in the CP9, their power level, how long they've been their, their past attacks, their comparison to other agents, so on and so forth.

retsudo
October 17, 2007, 11:17 PM
Not very "on-topic" but wouldn't Lucci have been stronger if he didn't have df but fought with seastone gloves or something? with his rokushiki and being able to negate df, he would be able to handle just about anyone, especially df users.

Freakzin
October 18, 2007, 12:22 AM
kinda off topic also,
smoker uses a kairoseki sword and he has DF ability, i bet lucci could use kairoseki gloves, if it had somewhat leather, between the actual kairoseki and his hands

retsudo
October 18, 2007, 01:42 AM
kinda off topic also,
smoker uses a kairoseki sword and he has DF ability, i bet lucci could use kairoseki gloves, if it had somewhat leather, between the actual kairoseki and his hands

the kairoseki (so that's what it's called...) is only on the tip I think...otherwise that's kinda cheapening the whole thing. By placing a piece of clothe around it, anybody can use it.
anyway, to get back on topic, I believe Lucci would be on Shichibukai level. He's like a super secret happy fun shichibukai.

Timeless
October 18, 2007, 03:16 AM
I'd definitely place Lucci at Shichibukai level - but I wouldn't even consider placing him on any level near the Yonkou. I reckon both Shanks and Whitebeard have quite a few nakama that could beat him as well - and the stronger Shichibukai like Mihawk (possibly others, but we don't know much about each Shichibukai's strength and powers) are probably far beyond Lucci's level of power.

I'd say Blackbeard is stronger than Lucci also. Seriously, I doubt Lucci's tekkai could do anything against Blackbeard's insane physical strength. He almost killed Ace with two hits! Lucci's speed won't mean anything either, because of Blackbeard's powers.
Also, since the admirals are bound to be the strongest fighters of WG, I doubt Lucci could take them on.

DutchPhoenix
October 18, 2007, 05:15 AM
Shichibukai isnt a rank, its a special title for extremely strong pirates who co-operate with the WG

hollowfied
October 18, 2007, 05:59 AM
Also, I don't see how Lucci's devil fruit helped him in combat at all. I mean, ppl like Enel and Crocodile and Aokiji (as far as we can see), they DEPEND on their DF powers in order to fight, but Lucci's fruit..well Zoan isn't very useful is it?

Absolutio
October 18, 2007, 08:21 AM
Zoan is considered the best DF fruit for melee combat - that's what lucci said himself (if i'm not mistaken).

Impel Down
October 18, 2007, 08:33 AM
Lucci's Zoan increased his physical strength, sharpened his shigans, and he'd used his tail a few times as well.

hollowfied
October 18, 2007, 08:39 AM
But Lucci with a Logia fruit..that would so fcking own..

haha ~

Impel Down
October 18, 2007, 08:53 AM
Except if he ate two DFs, he'd explode. And that would also mean he's dead.

Absolutio
October 18, 2007, 08:55 AM
I kinda not like the way logia fruit user depend too much on their DF. I mean, look at Ace for example, he used to be stronger than DF luffy, even without a DF, and now when he has a logia one, you don't or didn't see him do any fighting moves at all, only DFing his enemies.
If lucci had a logia DF, he wouldn't have needed to master all those special fighting techniques.

Impel Down
October 18, 2007, 09:20 AM
He could have mastered them and then eaten it, but you're right, he wouldn't have used them then. Logia > Roukrishi.

hollowfied
October 18, 2007, 09:22 AM
I guess thats true.

Physically Ace is still very powerful. Didn't one of BlackBeard's subordinates comment on Ace's strength and how he was able to hurt BB without his DF powers?

DutchPhoenix
October 18, 2007, 10:27 AM
i think luffy/mr 1 has the best fruit for melee combat :)

Impel Down
October 18, 2007, 10:57 AM
I'd agree that Mr. 1 has really good melee capabilities. Luffy's DF is only good for fights because of his massive strength.

king_crimson-
October 18, 2007, 01:46 PM
Lucci would definately be far more powerful than someone like Crocodile provided he has a means to counter Croc's ability to avoid damage by turning into sand.
yes, i agree, but that's exactly the point i'm making...suppose lucci and croc fight, without knowing anything about the other powers...suppose lucci try to attack with shigan: game over, crocodile only need to catch him, then all the water in lucci's body would be sucked by crocodile's power...done...and crocodile can use desert storms as well...and is invulnerable unless he gets wet...remember that luffy was practically killed two times by crocodile, and survived by luck...

of course, if lucci were to use a seastone suit to cover his entire body, i doubt anyone among the people we've seen until now(except for maybe for mihawk, shanks and WB) stand a chance against him...

that said, if we just compare his strength to the shichibukai we've seen until now i do think that lucci is on the shichibukai level...

oh one more thing: luffy's DF isn't good for melee combat?? c'mon, his rubber body gave him an incredible physical resistance...think about it, he's really vulnerable to only slashing weapons, or reeeeeeally strong piercing weapons, and just by being able to stretch his arms and use them like elastics it gives him an incredible attack power...it is a very strong DF for combat, which combined with luffy's natural superhuman strength and endurance, makes him a combat-monster...but still, any normal man, with that DF would be a pretty tough fighter(not as great as luffy, obviuosly)...

oh, and the gear are only possible thanks to the DF powers...

Impel Down
October 18, 2007, 04:37 PM
Lucci's also very smart, so he'd notice that Crocodile was sand when he'd shigan him, and using Soru or Rankyaku, he could run away or cut Crocodile away, thus escaping. Figuring out that he's now sand, Lucci could come up with a multitude of plans, probably the blood one is the most likely, thus killing Crocodile with a shigan to the head.

hollowfied
October 18, 2007, 10:19 PM
I guess Lucci's strength is that he has no real weakness. All these Logia fruit users have a disadvantage, like Crocodile with water, Enel with rubber..but Lucci being a Zoan fruit user and a master of rokushiki techniques, has no real weaknesses.

Impel Down
October 19, 2007, 07:41 AM
True, Zoans have no real weakness, other than it doesn't give them that big of an advantage. All it really is is that he's stronger, which you can't really "counter".

Eyefarted2
October 19, 2007, 08:40 PM
yea, he should be one of the middle ranked members. since he came close to beating luffy, and luffy is stronger than many members in the shichibukai.

hollowfied
October 19, 2007, 10:13 PM
Luffy is proven to be stronger then the WEAKEST member of the Shichibukai (Crocodile). I doubt hes stronger then anyone else..

Absolutio
October 20, 2007, 04:36 AM
Well.. that we will see if he defeats Moria or not.. ;)

And yes, Luffy's been proven for now to only be stronger than Crocodile. I don't get why so many people are "dissing" the Shichibukais so much. They are part of the world's strongest pirates - they aint pushovers as you think of them!

Impel Down
October 20, 2007, 07:47 AM
There is no proof that Crocodile is the weakest. You could even make the argument that he's the strongest because the WG made him a Shichibukai before his bounty really started to rise.

hollowfied
October 20, 2007, 10:04 AM
Hes the first major opponent and the first shichibukai that Luffy defeated. Its a rule in Shonen anime that enemies get progressively more powerful as the series goes on. Isn't that proof enough?

Impel Down
October 20, 2007, 11:37 AM
Most people consider his first major opponent Arlong, since he gave Luffy the most trouble, had the highest EB bounty, and had such a big relation to Nami leaving the crew, and to Jimbei.

king_crimson-
October 20, 2007, 07:13 PM
Hes the first major opponent and the first shichibukai that Luffy defeated. Its a rule in Shonen anime that enemies get progressively more powerful as the series goes on. Isn't that proof enough?

well, op ins't your normal shounen, when all the characters use the same kind of power and techniques and the one with the stronger power is the strongest(like DB or -in most cases- bleach, for example)

crocodile's ability cannot be considered weaker than lucci's, it's just that crocodile's ability had a weakness and luffy was lucky enough to discover it and survive two fights to come up with the perfect countermove in the third(using his own blood)...while lucci didn't have a real weakness, but was the same kind of fighter as luffy, with similar "powers", thus luffy didn't have to overcome a special ability, but "simply" overpower him in melee fight...

it is a fact afterall, that crocodile was the one luffy had more problems to defeat...

Impel Down
October 20, 2007, 07:16 PM
Agreed, to defeat Crocodile, Luffy just had to find a way around his powers, then it was a basic fight, which Crocodile could not stand up to, even without Luffy's exceptional power taken into account.

With Lucci, it was just a matter of being a better fighter, nothing more, nothing less.

Imitorar
October 20, 2007, 07:19 PM
And besides, all the other Shichibukai we've seen have seemed much more powerful and threatening. So I think Crocodile really was the weakest. He was still very strong, but the weakest of a group of very powerful people, the Shichibukai.

Impel Down
October 20, 2007, 07:27 PM
I dunno, Crocodile has his own form of intimidation. The faceless mafioso-type leader of a group of world-renowned assassins who's taking down an island/nation, and in the beginning of the saga, those who disobeyed were either hunted down or "killed". So far, what the other Shichibukai have going for them is:

Mihawk: Reputation, his vampire-like appearence, and of course the eyes. Oh, and he's a stone cold fox.
Kuma: Reputation...and I guess he's large.
Doflamingo: He's bad-ass, cool, semi-sadistic, and smart talkin'. That's got it's own intimidation level.
Moria: He's large. Very large. And owns zombies.
Jimbei: No one's afraid of him. People have stuffed Jimbei dolls that they give to babies.

Imitorar
October 20, 2007, 07:40 PM
People SHOULD be afraid of Jimbei. Remember, this guy was a friend of ARLONG. And I meant in regards to powers.

Mihawk: You saw what he did to Krieg's ship and Zoro's torso. He's an AWESOME fighter. The greatest swordsman in the world.

Kuma: Alright, we dunno how his work yet. But they teleport you away somehow, so that's pretty powerful.

Moria: He has zombies, and he's almost impossible to hit, thanks to Doppelman.

Doflamingo: He can turn your body into his puppet, and he's a sadist. This presents an oppurtunity for all sorts of fun. As we saw when he had Sarquis kill Bellamy. He's not nice, and he IS powerful.

Blackbeard: He can nullify Devil Fruit powers. He can destroy entire villages by sucking them into black holes. He killed his nakama. Probably the only one scarier then Doflamingo.

Crocodile: He can turn into and control sand, and suck the moisture out of things. I just think that he would lose to any of the other 5 that we know of. I'm not saying he was a pushover, because he wasn't, but I think he WAS the weakest of the Shichibukai. Someone has to be. That doesn't make him weak at all, just weaker then the others.

Impel Down
October 20, 2007, 07:50 PM
I wasn't referring to powers, I was talking about their level of intimidation. And seeing as Crocodile was pretty much untouchable unless someone had the weakness, and most people would have just used water, which is no good, and he had some pretty huge attacks as well, so he could take down a lot of people as well.

hollowfied
October 20, 2007, 09:59 PM
People SHOULD be afraid of Jimbei. Remember, this guy was a friend of ARLONG. And I meant in regards to powers.

Compared to the other pirates in East Blue he was very strong, but he was nothing compared to the people on the Grand Line. Hell, even the giant Dorry could probably beat him up. Or Mr 3. Or Bellamy.

Imitorar
October 20, 2007, 10:14 PM
I'm not saying that in terms of strength, hollowfied. I mean that anyone who could be a friend of Arlong is a scary monster, and Jimbei is a Shichibukai, so he IS strong. Seriously, am I the only guy who thinks that Jimbei is scary?

And Impel, Crocodiles weakness can be figured out by a smart opponent. And I really think that his ability is not too threatening compared to those of the others. What makes him invulnerable is the same as what makes any Logia user invulnerable. It's not a special part of his ability, and the other Shichibukai are probably smart enough to realize that water would clump the sand together.

hollowfied
October 20, 2007, 11:08 PM
I think Jimbei was Arlong's superior, like how Doflamingo was Bellamy's..

Imitorar
October 20, 2007, 11:17 PM
He was. And Bellamy was an evil twisted prick, and Doflamingo was the same, only worse. So it should be the same for Arlong and Jimbei. You see what I mean about Jimbei being someone to fear?

hollowfied
October 20, 2007, 11:22 PM
I guess so.

Somehow, I still think Jimbei is a 'good' shichibukai, on the side of the Strawhats.

retsudo
October 21, 2007, 03:47 AM
Perhaps Arlong left Jimbei because he was too much of a goody good?
Plus, the name "Jimbei" sounds like a samurai's name and we all know that samurais are the most virtuous creatures.

hollowfied
October 21, 2007, 05:28 AM
Or maybe he was a real villain before, but after becoming a shichibukai he redeems himself and becomes a good guy?

Jimbei means 'whale shark' in Japanese btw, but yeah it does sound a bit like a Samurai name.

Absolutio
October 21, 2007, 06:58 AM
About Crocodile being weak => Don't forget that Luffy almost died 2 times against him, and even at the 3rd fight, when they were on equal grounds (Luffy had his blood on his hand, and Crocodile fought seriously), it ended up with a tie, and if it wasn't for Robin, Luffy would've died from Crocodile's poison. Crocodile aint a pushover, and he has proven to have some major skills and abilities, with, and without his DF powers (being able to land a melee hit on Luffy requires some skills after all).
So about comparing Lucci to Crocodile will be a hard scenerio, but my opinion is that if Lucci figures out Croc's weakness, he would've won, easily, since he has superior movement and melee skills.

OP_overlord
October 21, 2007, 09:36 AM
well if we go in terms of power then lucci was a 4400 dorki level, and we dont know any one elses power levels.
crocodile is not weak he just had a small bounty, and in the governements mind lucci was just as strong as the shichibukai and maybe as the upper level of the marines. luffy did beat them both but he had to think about it and make up new and more powerful attacks when he fought both opponents.

Impel Down
October 21, 2007, 10:12 AM
I think Lucci was just 4000, but that's still extremely powerful, and that makes him, physically, 400 times stronger than a Marine, who'd be stronger than a regular person.

And a person could figure out Crocodile's weakness easily, Imi, I agree, but if you didn't know his power when you first meet him, he'd totally kill you.

hollowfied
October 21, 2007, 11:18 AM
Physically Crocodiles very damn weak. Hell, maybe even Usopp is stronger then him physically.

However his DF ability is just..cheap.

BTW, I think (and hope) most of the other shichibukai are very strong physically. Aside from having cheap DF powers.

Absolutio
October 21, 2007, 12:03 PM
Physically Crocodiles very damn weak. Hell, maybe even Usopp is stronger then him physically.

However his DF ability is just..cheap.

BTW, I think (and hope) most of the other shichibukai are very strong physically. Aside from having cheap DF powers.

Do you even remember the 3rd fight of Luffy VS. Crocodile. Crocodile barely used DF powers (in any "cheap", if you want to say it, way) and yet he managed to give Luffy, who masters only melee combat, a fatal blow.

Impel Down
October 21, 2007, 01:12 PM
Crocodile is not physically weak. He's got huge muscles and whatnot, not to mention his hook with the poison in it. And to say his DF is cheap, that's calling most Logias "cheap", which they kind of are.

And to Hollowfied, so far the Shichibukai have really only used their DFs, aside from Mihawk.

Imitorar
October 21, 2007, 01:27 PM
I'd just like it to go on the record that I do not believe that Crocodile is weak, merely the weakest of the Shichibukai. The weakest strong fighter in a group of strong fighters. Someone had to be. And yeah, Crocodile is plenty dangerous with just his hook and strength. Most really powerful Devil Fruit users can fight without their Devil Fruits, it's only the run of the mill Devil Fruit users who can't, as observed by Van Auger in chapter 441.

Impel Down
October 21, 2007, 08:38 PM
What do you mean, Van Auger mentioned? BB and Ace both pretty much only used their DFs, although they added creativity and whatnot to their moves.

And if great DF users use a combination of DF and physical power in a fight, does that makes Zoans, like Lucci, the best at using DFs?

Imitorar
October 21, 2007, 09:42 PM
Van Auger said that he was surprised that Ace could still fight melee, without using his Devil Fruit. That implies that all powerful Devil Fruit users can do that. Blackbeard can, Ace can, Luffy can, Lucci can, and most powerful Devil Fruit users we've seen. And Zoan's aren't the best at using Devil Fruits, but theirs are the easiest to integrate with melee fighting (think about it for a bit, which works best with melee, Zoan, Paramecia, or Logia?)

hollowfied
October 22, 2007, 05:27 AM
I'd say Paramecia ;)

Logia is just friggin powerful, and zoan is meh .

Stay on topic, guys.

Impel Down
October 22, 2007, 08:35 AM
Zoan, actually, would work the best with melee, since they're all pure melee. There's really not much other point in eating a Zoan DF than for straight up fighting, which is probably why the higher-ups in the CP9 had them.

See what I did there? I tied it all back to the topic.

hollowfied
October 22, 2007, 09:07 AM
Well I guess Zoan fruits do add a lot more muscle bulk to your body, thus making you stronger physically, and the wolf and leopard models also add a nifty claw which is a useful weapon in melee combat, no?

Impel Down
October 22, 2007, 06:15 PM
Yeah, you're right, although for Lucci v. Luffy, the claw was really only there so that shigan could affect Luffy, being more of a real shigan attack than just an odd punch, which is how it worked against Luffy when Lucci wasn't in his leopard mode.

Lucci also used his tail a few times in battle, making a rankyaku with it once, and grabbing Luffy with it to hit him with a Roukougan. And in full Leopard mode, he used his teeth.

arcrouma
November 20, 2007, 12:18 AM
Lucci is physically very strong + zoan type. Maybe he even won't lose to Luffy if he did not turn his back off luffy
Shicibukai such as croc is strong too
When fighting crocodile, Luffy must be dead if robin was not there in the first and third fight

Imitorar
November 20, 2007, 09:33 AM
Lucci had his back turned to Luffy, but he faced back around when he saw Luffy get up. Plus, he was in Tekkai anyway. Luffy BROKE that Tekkai, he went right through it. And yes, Crocodile was a huge challenge for Luffy, since Luffy almost died twice and needed to be saved by Robin. He was alot weaker then, though. It'd probably still be an extremely challenging fight, but I don't think Luffy would need another person to save him this time, he could probably manage to beat Crocodile on his own, without help, albeit with alot of difficulty.

hollowfied
December 01, 2007, 05:43 AM
I do wonder just how many Vice Admirals are there..seeing how Garp was so strong..

DutchPhoenix
December 01, 2007, 06:20 AM
Lucci had his back turned to Luffy, but he faced back around when he saw Luffy get up. Plus, he was in Tekkai anyway. Luffy BROKE that Tekkai, he went right through it. And yes, Crocodile was a huge challenge for Luffy, since Luffy almost died twice and needed to be saved by Robin. He was alot weaker then, though. It'd probably still be an extremely challenging fight, but I don't think Luffy would need another person to save him this time, he could probably manage to beat Crocodile on his own, without help, albeit with alot of difficulty.

luffy was saved ALL times by robin, even in the final fight when croc poisoned luffy ;)

mars0103
December 01, 2007, 06:26 AM
Lucci had his back turned to Luffy, but he faced back around when he saw Luffy get up. Plus, he was in Tekkai anyway. Luffy BROKE that Tekkai, he went right through it. And yes, Crocodile was a huge challenge for Luffy, since Luffy almost died twice and needed to be saved by Robin. He was alot weaker then, though. It'd probably still be an extremely challenging fight, but I don't think Luffy would need another person to save him this time, he could probably manage to beat Crocodile on his own, without help, albeit with alot of difficulty.

In all fruits there looks like their is a rock papper scisrors effect whick means there is always a way to counter but this only goes for elemental fruits animal fruits are different they have i understand the way the powers work more fully to become good.
Luffy in the croc fight only nearly died because that he didnt now how to combat the fruit. the croc is not the weakist i think its more moria i think because that he uses others instead of his skills as a fighter the same goes for bird boy as well.

Impel Down
December 01, 2007, 12:51 PM
That's not totally true, the rock paper scissor thing. That really only applies to Logias, but it's not like in the presence of their opposite element they are completely defeated. Enel could still fight against Luffy, and did a great job of doing so.

As to the other fruits, it's just a matter of being stronger or avoiding it. Paramecia usually just have a trick to them that you have to see through, or you just have to be stronger and faster than they are. And Zoans are just direct fighters, so there's not much to fighting them.

hill_mie87
December 02, 2007, 05:36 PM
Type of devil fruit that one has eaten may be the most important factor determining strenght. But let's not forget, strategy and tactics does help. I disagree that crocodile is the weakest shicibukai. Maybe people regards him as so,since he has a much lower bounty than the rest of the remaining shicibukais. But let's not forget, BlackBeard never had a bounty put on his head before (or so i thought). But he is strong. And i think, without the proper tactic, Luffy will still find it difficult to beat Crocodile.

Impel Down
December 04, 2007, 02:40 PM
People don't really think that Crocodile is weak because of his bounty, since Oda-sensei said that if Crocodile had continued, at this time in the manga he'd have twice his current bounty. People seem to think that he's weak because Luffy beat him, which is another reason why some people are calling Moria weak.

That, however, is bat-shit. He brought a country to its knees and mastered his DF to a level in which most DF users don't bother with. And just because he'd of had a crazy-bounty, that doesn't mean you're strong. Enel would have had a 500K bounty, but he lost in the end too.

Razh
December 04, 2007, 03:41 PM
I do wonder just how many Vice Admirals are there..seeing how Garp was so strong..

Not all of them are that strong. Garp is a bit special after all.

But who knows. Maybe some are even stronger than him. We haven't seen a lot of them exactly. And all of the them, save for Garp, looked like nothing much.

Absolutio
December 04, 2007, 05:14 PM
Vice admirals are supposed to be very strong.. But anything is relatively.. Of course there are stronger ones and weaker ones.. The fact that this rank isn't limited by slots (like admiral rank is) means that it'll have a larger range of strength of its individuals..

Impel Down
December 04, 2007, 08:40 PM
There seems to be a lot of VAs, but of the ones we've seen, Garp and Saul seem to be the only ones with any actual fighting power.

The Admirals, however, and the ones to really shit bricks about. Unlike the VAs, there's only three of them, and I think they can only reach that position with power, not just political connections and whatnot.

kazuma_uzumaki
December 04, 2007, 09:46 PM
Even if Aokiji owned Luffy it doesn't nessacerily mean Aokiji is super strong

Some DF users are stronger against other types

Absolutio
December 05, 2007, 08:11 AM
Giving the fact that Luffy is super strong, it does mean the Ao Kiji is even more super strong coz he owned Luffy.
Some DF powers are stronger against other types.. True, but how do you expect Luffy to be pirate king then? The trick is to beat those DF users anyways.. And Ice doesn't have a special stronger effect on rubber.. It's just that Logia powers generally are super strong.

Fox666
July 22, 2008, 02:19 PM
How much Douriki would Garp and Kizaru have?
(My guess: Garp 4000 and Kizaru 5000)

Moved post

Akainu
July 22, 2008, 02:49 PM
unmeasurable, due to failure of the testing device thruogh instant death.
poor old Fukurou

Moved post

gold349
July 22, 2008, 03:51 PM
How much Douriki would Garp and Kizaru have?
(My guess: Garp 4000 and Kizaru 5000)


http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Douriki hope that helps, your estimation might need correcting.:amuse

Moved post

Fox666
July 22, 2008, 06:44 PM
http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Douriki hope that helps, your estimation might need correcting.:amuseI know the Douriki of the CP9 members. Lucci was recognized by Kuma, I think it's kinda impossible to be far far way from his 4000, even for a admiral...

Moved post

Superman
July 23, 2008, 10:30 AM
Well we know that Rob Lucci is the most powerful CP9 member, which is the most powerful CP9 in history. However, how does he compare to say Aokiji, Shanks or Mihawk? Considering how Luffy got owned against Aokiji, do you think Lucci stands a chance against any of the more powerful figures in the OP world?

Also its been stated that Lucci can survive a buster call. If thats the case, then the Buster call won't even scratch White beard's crew, seeing how his crew has at least 8+ members at Lucci's level. Its funny, seeing how the Buster call is the ultimate weapon the WG has, and it doesn't really amount to much against formidable opponents, does it?

What does everyone think?


He is like mugen said defenitely shichibukai level.

And that with the buster call is probably only meant because he can make the moonwalk and just fly away. So its pretty easy to get away if you can "control" not particular "master" the formel six.
Got it ?! :amuse :grin
[hr]

I know the Douriki of the CP9 members. Lucci was recognized by Kuma, I think it's kinda impossible to be far far way from his 4000, even for a admiral...

Moved post

Nonsence.

An admiral has probably 20000 douriki.
I would say Reyleigh has 16000-17000 douriki

UchihaMadara
July 23, 2008, 11:04 AM
The buster call isnt a focused attack, its a wave of destruction, an indiscriminate attack. the SH Crew "Survived" a Buster Call but they did so by running. Surviving a Buster Call is alot different then defeating a Buster Call.

I would Say the difference between Garp and Lucci is similar to the one between Lucci and Kaku. So id say Garp is probably at 5000, Which is still a rediculous number in comparison. If someone had 20,000 they would be able to destroy an island with there fist.

Superman
July 23, 2008, 03:57 PM
5000 is a little lame.
I mean then Luffy will be almost Garps level and thats so totally not the case.
Maybe i overestimate the admirals a little bit, but how can you say Garp has only 5000 douriki.
Ok ok.
If the admirals have not 20000 they have at least 15000.
Common.
Why isnt Lucci an Vice-admiral?
I mean he already has 4000 douriki.
That would be enough if i think like you.

And of course they are able to destroy an island.
Even Luffy could destroy an whole island.
He beat everything on it (houses and bla bla bla) to crap and thats it.
He just cant brake the ground like moria does in his 1000 shadow mode but of course an admiral can do that.

If you made a joke i didnt understand it.
Then i apologice for my rough way.

Raysen_ht
July 23, 2008, 04:34 PM
Lucci wasnt with the marines, because he wanted to kill people!! not just bad people, but anyone.... and the only place he could do that without beeing a criminal is with CP9

JC123
July 23, 2008, 05:05 PM
I would think after a certain Douriki it would be harder to acquire more. Garp at 5000 seems accurate. Let's say a Douriki of 8000 is an Admiral...

Luffy could be somewhere at 4500 and climbing. But again, this isn't how OP works. Fights are made or broken by how you can react to your enemies' powers and use your own. Coby may one day take out Luffy if we're lucky to see something like that.

LoS
July 23, 2008, 07:40 PM
Why is everyone even talking about douriki? Do you think it will even show up again, the only reason we heard it in the first place was because of Fukuro?

Raysen_ht
July 23, 2008, 07:41 PM
Yes, as far as we know, Fukuro is the only one who could measure the douriki.... but we never know what might show up

JC123
July 23, 2008, 11:02 PM
Why is everyone even talking about douriki? Do you think it will even show up again, the only reason we heard it in the first place was because of Fukuro?

Heh, just need to compare something until a new OP comes out. :)

Raysen_ht
July 24, 2008, 06:19 AM
^that can be done in the discussion/prediction of the chapters...

I think Lucci is stronger than most of the Vice admirals.... he is on par with Garp, and is weaker than the admirals

Imo he can take one of the weaker shishi (croco, and maybe Flamingo, i think he is weak) and probably tie with a middle one (like Moria or Kuma) and be crushed by the stronger ones (like mihawk)

About the Younkou....he will be crushed by any of them...

DutchPhoenix
July 24, 2008, 08:47 AM
^that can be done in the discussion/prediction of the chapters...

I think Lucci is stronger than most of the Vice admirals.... he is on par with Garp, and is weaker than the admirals

Imo he can take one of the weaker shishi (croco, and maybe Flamingo, i think he is weak) and probably tie with a middle one (like Moria or Kuma) and be crushed by the stronger ones (like mihawk)

About the Younkou....he will be crushed by any of them...

how do you know he is on par with garp

Superman
July 24, 2008, 09:03 AM
how do you know he is on par with garp

Excacly.

Why did Luffy overreacting and said: "All of you get killed if you fight against him" or something like that when Garp was in Water 7 and didnt even try to fight back even if he dont really like him!
Garp has to be much stronger than Lucci.
He is an Vice-Admiral you have to be more than just on Luccis level.

Besides.
For me Garp is on par with the admirals in sheer strenght.
I doubt that he has a DF.
Lets pretent the Admirals woudnt activate their powers than they are on par.
Thats why he is just an Vice-Admiral and he always fall asleep:XD thats a pretty good point too isnt it?!:XD

Raysen_ht
July 24, 2008, 09:04 AM
EDIT:
how do you know he is on par with garp
I dont... thats why i said I think before the whole sentence

EDIT:

Why did Luffy overreacting and said: "All of you get killed if you fight against him" or something like that when Garp was in Water7?!

Luffi also said that if he took his eyes off Lucci, the bastard would kill all of his nakamas


Garp has to be much stronger than Lucci.
He is an Vice-Admiral you have to be more than just on Luccis level.

You dont think Lucci could be a vice admiral!?!? He wasnt one, only because he wanted to be free to kill whomever he wanted..


For me Garp is on par with the admirals in sheer strenght.
I doubt that he has a DF.
Lets pretent the Admirals woudnt activate their powers than they are on par.
Thats why he is just an Vice-Admiral and he always fall asleep thats a pretty good point too isnt it?!

When he was younger he could have been, but now he is a tad weaker than the admirals imo..
Besides, i dont think u have to have a DF to be an admiral...

It is a very good point though

Superman
July 24, 2008, 09:21 AM
I dont... thats why i said I think before the whole sentence

Dammit you`re pretty good :amuse :grin :XD
[hr]



Luffi also said that if he took his eyes off Lucci, the bastard would kill all of his nakamas


Dammit i hoped you woldnt speak of that point, but it had has to come:grin.
Maybe i should think before i write down such a bad example isnt it true?!




You dont think Lucci could be a vice admiral!?!? He wasnt one, only because he wanted to be free to kill whomever he wanted..

No maybe he would in 1 or 2 years because everything goes very fast in one piece but not yet.



When he was younger he could have been, but now he is a tad weaker than the admirals imo..
Besides, i dont think u have to have a DF to be an admiral...

It is a very good point though

Ahhh Thank you:grin

Raysen_ht
July 24, 2008, 09:35 AM
But the vice admirals who were at the Buster call of EL were preety scared about what Lucci might do... they were confident that he would take care of "Straw Hat Luffi"

Besides, do u think all of the VA would give such a hard time to Luffi?

imo, there are about 10 VA... I think Lucci is stronger than some of them (like 3), on par with 3, weaker than 2 and a lot weaker than 2

Besides... i dont think Garp is on the top 2 VA anymore... imo he is the 3rd stronger one

Superman
July 24, 2008, 09:47 AM
EHHHHHHH your right.
There are 10 of those bakas. I totally forgot.:barf
But Lucci lets say he would be number 5 or 6.
Damn i never think on the VA on EN.
We cant confirm how strong "sleeping pill":p Garp is but he probably is number 1 or 2.
Just my opinion.
I like him thats why i guess he`s one pretty high ranked VA.
Could imagiine there is a big difference in strenght of those ranks like in bleach the bad guys.
Ulugorilla on number 4 is much weaker than 3.

I better let my fingers of this thread here are just people which are smarter then me:grin

JC123
July 24, 2008, 07:38 PM
Besides... i dont think Garp is on the top 2 VA anymore... imo he is the 3rd stronger one

As compared to...?

Though I have to admit, having Lucci literally stop the BC to fight the Strawhats is an incredible power, I have to believe that he is a govn. agent. To give him a rank, he's less a VA and more a Rear Admiral. Someone has to be able to reign him in, and that's usually the VAs.

Raysen_ht
July 24, 2008, 07:47 PM
Compared to himself when he was younger...
when he attacke the SH at W7, he said his power was not the same anymore... so i guessed that he wasnt one of the top 2 VA atm!

Do u think the VA are at Shishiboukai level? Because, imo Lucci could take out Moria (without Oz)... and i dont think all the VA could do that (though i do think some of them could)...
as Superman suggested, there might be a power Gap between the VA, and Lucci would be in the middle of them

JC123
July 24, 2008, 10:40 PM
See, I have to think he's on the Rear Admiral level. But this is like comparing the FBI to the Army. They do two different jobs.

You want someone taken out, you call in Lucci who will do it with the least fuss possible. Ninja in, Ninja Out.

A Rear Admiral will come in cannons ablazing, singing about the Flames of Vudun, and enjoying the napalm smell burning their noses.


And for Lucci to be on par with even RAs kinda messes up the power balance in the Marines.

In terms of power, I doubt highly he can take out even two VAs. He might be on par with Rear Admirals but in the end, those are his bosses. No matter how blood thirsty, you want your head intact? Don't make the S--- go rolling down the hill in the Navy. :p

Fox666
July 25, 2008, 01:07 AM
Lucci was recognized by Kuma, how can he be weaker than a vice-admiral??

And about Garp, I did underestimate him. As said, Luffy was really scared of him. Garp is the "legendary Marine that chased Roger many times". Admiral level, for sure.

JC123
July 25, 2008, 05:32 AM
I'm speaking more in regards to rank, if they were to be compared.

In power, he may be on the Admiral level but then just seems to have less because of his unfeeling nature.

Physical power, I doubt he could take out Garp.

Capone
July 25, 2008, 05:48 PM
Where does it say there are 10 Vice admirals? it probably got stated somewhere but i missed it.. and i think Garp has the most authority out of all the VA just because hes been around for a very long time ( Whitebeard said it )

Raysen_ht
July 25, 2008, 07:51 PM
It was never stated...we just assumed that, because there were 5 VA at the "holy land" when Spandam triggered the Buster call, so it would be a good guess that there were around 10 of them scatered around the GL...
I agree with you on the authority thing... garp should be the most influetial VA

paradoxe
July 26, 2008, 04:14 AM
Garp probably the strongest VA, bordering on admiral level IMO. Only reason he isn't an admiral is cos of his attitude.

Lucci is probably stronger then most of the VAs, except the top 2/3 ? And I'm guessing Garp is already 6000 douriki, with Admirals being around 7,000-ish. Luffy around 5000 and climbing. Crocodile probably 1500? Gecko Moria around 3000, Kuma around 5000ish?

Though douriki only measures physical abilities, DF abilities not factored in, thats why I rated Crocodile, Gecko Moria and the Admirals so low.

Capone
July 26, 2008, 10:42 AM
i think your right about most of them but Akouji doesnt look like hes all that strong phsiycally.. he just has a very very strong DF thats why hes an admiral... and hes pretty loyal like back in Ohara

BlackHair
July 26, 2008, 03:32 PM
i think your right about most of them but Akouji doesnt look like hes all that strong phsiycally.. he just has a very very strong DF thats why hes an admiral... and hes pretty loyal like back in Ohara
I think that goes for most of the logia DF User. But I think an Admiral must be also strong physically. Since they have to be able to fight in condition where there powers wouldn't help them.


Garp probably the strongest VA, bordering on admiral level IMO. Only reason he isn't an admiral is cos of his attitude.
I agree with u. Maybe he is slept over the entrance application for an Admiral or sth.. who knows. Since his name was mentioned by WB (conversation between him and Shanks) and it was said he "cornered Roger several times", he must be pretty Strong.

About Lucci, I think he isn't on VA lvl.. cause Luffy already beat him. If he is that strong then there wont be much room for Luffy and Co to grow. Remember we are just at the halfway on the Grand Line. Lucci was in my eyes just popular 'cause he is/was the strongest CP Agent and known for his past. But there must be also VA who are weaker then Lucci, who are just promoted to his hard work.

Lucci weaker then VA, as strong as the (average) Shichibukai, weaker then Yonkou.

Superman
July 26, 2008, 05:35 PM
Where does it say there are 10 Vice admirals? it probably got stated somewhere but i missed it.. and i think Garp has the most authority out of all the VA just because hes been around for a very long time ( Whitebeard said it )

I never saw it either im the manga or anime but i readed often that there where 10 admirals so i just believe it.
Pretty naive huh :p:D:XD

Raysen_ht
July 26, 2008, 05:36 PM
Lucci weaker then VA, as strong as the (average) Shichibukai, weaker then Yonkou

So ure saying that the avarage VA is stronger than the Avarage Shishi!?!?
I dont think that could be right... The 7 lords should be equivalent to the 4 emperors who are equivalent to the Marines (including all 3 admirals and all the VA, RA, comoddores etc)!!
That is right isnt it? Or did i get something wrong from what Garp explained about the balance of power in the world?

BlackHair
July 26, 2008, 09:41 PM
So ure saying that the avarage VA is stronger than the Avarage Shishi!?!?
I dont think that could be right... Yeah I do and I did get ur point. Well, I said average but there isn't any scale or sth. Lucci is in my eyes able to defeat Gekko Moria and also the VA on Buster Call who shot his own subordinate (Using a gun is in OP world kind of lame and weak imo, especially if he/she is high ranked).


I dont think that could be right... The 7 lords should be equivalent to the 4 emperors who are equivalent to the Marines (including all 3 admirals and all the VA, RA, comoddores etc)!!
Tbh that was sth I haven't understood so far, coz Oda didn't explained enough and the remaining Shichi aren't revealed yet. By Marines HQ does he mean the entire Marine? or only the Admirals? Obviously the entire Marines are more in number. So lets say only Admiral and Fleet Admiral. I do think they could fight the Yonkou (without crew) equal, but then again, are these four able to fight the Shichi equal?

Well, without playing with words I get things this way: the entire Marine vs Shichi+their subordinate vs Yonkou+crew. Garp said they are equal, but how does he know that? I don't think he is able to know how many subordinate and skilled fighter are working for each person(group). All right, lets they each group has spies among them. So then mostly everyone of the marine are just cannonfodder, beside guys who are revealed as strong atm and some hidden guys. But that's not enough for an explanation (for me).

So thats why I just cant base Luccis lvl on this triangle balance system or w.e. My earlier post was just based on facts which are revealed so far.


That is right isnt it? Or did i get something wrong from what Garp explained about the balance of power in the world?Not sure if its important, but Garp said "Marine HQ" (Null Scanlations) (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/432/07/). All in all, yea' thats how I get as well.

paradoxe
July 26, 2008, 10:51 PM
i think your right about most of them but Akouji doesnt look like hes all that strong phsiycally.. he just has a very very strong DF thats why hes an admiral... and hes pretty loyal like back in Ohara

Its hard to see someone whos physically weak getting to the position of Admiral. Even though Aokiji has a pretty insane fruit, I'm sure physically hes still pretty strong. Maybe not 7000? Stronger then Luffy atm though.


Lucci weaker then VA, as strong as the (average) Shichibukai, weaker then Yonkou.

Considering how the VAs were pretty scared of Lucci back in Enies Lobby, I think Lucci is at least at VA level. I mean, wasn't it stated that he was one of the few government officials who could probably survive a buster call?

JC123
July 27, 2008, 01:45 AM
The VAs at the Buster Call thought Lucci could handle it. They halted the BC for him to finish the job.

But to say he could SURVIVE a Buster Call? That's a little out of his reach. He may be powerful but he's not a demigod. :p

paradoxe
July 27, 2008, 02:17 AM
Lucci's backstory to his admission in CP9 is revealed by a Vice Admiral during the Buster Call on Enies Lobby. Fifteen years prior, a kingdom had 500 of its soldiers and its king taken hostage by a pirate crew, with the captain demanding to be made the new king of the kingdom. As the government saw the king beginning to admit defeat, they sent in the then thirteen year-old Rob Lucci, who mercilessly killed all 500 hostages to get to the captain, whom he killed without mercy. During this incident, he gained a back full of scars from the pirate crew's guns, vaguely scarred in the shape of the World Government's symbol. Shortly after that he became a CP9 member, and gained the reputation of being the group's most cold-hearted and efficient assassin in its entire history. As such, he is a very valuable asset to the World Government, almost to the point of legend; the other vice admirals believe that he can even survive a Buster Call attack.


http://myanimelist.net/character.php?id=5677

Can't seem to find the manga page where it was mentioned ; gtg soon, will try and find it when I come back :P

I'm pretty sure it was stated somewhere though.

Hey Luffy is capable of surviving a Buster Call, and Lucci is quite nearly as strong as Luffy, so why not?


"As such, Rob Lucci is a very valuable asset to the World Government, almost to the point of legend; the other vice admirals believe that he can even survive a Buster Call attack."

"Bartholomew Kuma also stated that Rob Lucci power is very acknowledged even by Shichibukai, using it as an argument to Gecko Moria to never underestimate the Straw Hats": "No battle has a certain outcome (...) Who could have predicted that Rob Lucci would be defeated?".


http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Rob_Lucci

Raysen_ht
July 27, 2008, 10:11 AM
http://myanimelist.net/character.php?id=5677

Can't seem to find the manga page where it was mentioned ; gtg soon, will try and find it when I come back :P

I'm pretty sure it was stated somewhere though.

Hey Luffy is capable of surviving a Buster Call, and Lucci is quite nearly as strong as Luffy, so why not?

That stuff of Lucci beeing able to survive the buster call was only stated at the anime!! Do you guys know if Oda writes the anime episodes also?!? Or if he is involved in some major way on them?!

paradoxe
July 27, 2008, 11:32 AM
Wasn't it in the manga as well..?

Raysen_ht
July 27, 2008, 11:40 AM
well i just reread the whole part (from the triggering of the buster call to the funeral of merry) and i didnt see it anywhere... i´m preety sure i heard it before though, so i guessed it was on the anime...

Onomatopoeia
July 27, 2008, 12:03 PM
@Raysen Oda advises the anime people what to do and make the character say. He does influence the anime episodes. Whether this would be important enough for Oda to interfere if he felt it was wrong I'm not really sure. Though I don't think Oda would have them state that for no reason.

JC123
July 27, 2008, 01:59 PM
Here is what I know about Lucci...

The Admirals halted the Buster Call, knowing that Lucci would defeat Luffy. That didn't work and he got his @-- handed to him.

Before they could continue the attack Aokiji intervened, stating


The Buster Call has been defeated.

Had they have continued to go on with the attack, Enies Lobby would have been torn to cinders. With Lucci and CP9 with it. Could he have survived that bombardment? Did he survive after he was knocked out by the Jet Gatling?

I don't see it. Without Blueno's Doa Doa No mi, Lucci would have been a spot on the map. That wouldn't have existed.
Yes, he's a former cruel man. But again, I have to look at the fact that his legend is over. He can't survive a Buster Call by himself.

Stop
August 01, 2008, 11:22 PM
I guess Lucci is pretty strong I bet if he was a pirate he be a shichibukai. When fighting alot of stuff depends on like where you fight and exp If lucci was to fight croc in the desert I'm pretty sure he lose like alot of other people would but if he was like near a lake or something im pretty sure croc would lose one piece isn't the stronger one wins. If given the chance im pretty sure even someone like ussop could win a fight vs a shichibukai or something

Onomatopoeia
August 01, 2008, 11:44 PM
Before I forget this. Lucci is above Rear Admiral rank. Why? Drake is a Rear Admiral and way weaker then Lucci from what we've seen. And in my opinion Ussop would never beat a Sichibuki seriously. One last thing Lucci would probablly be able to beat both Moria and Crocodile no matter where they were.

Destin82
August 02, 2008, 01:11 AM
Before I forget this. Lucci is above Rear Admiral rank. Why? Drake is a Rear Admiral and way weaker then Lucci from what we've seen. And in my opinion Ussop would never beat a Sichibuki seriously. One last thing Lucci would probablly be able to beat both Moria and Crocodile no matter where they were.

I don't know about that. If Yassop can turn from that scrawny little blond guy to the one showed in

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/16-17/

I think eventually every Straw Hat pirate will become something to be reckoned with in their own right. I don't see anybody ever usurping Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji as the three main powerhouses of the group but doesn't mean any given member wont be able to beat shichibukai level pirates on their own near the end of the series.

JC123
August 02, 2008, 10:05 AM
If Usopp beats Aoge, then I'll believe he's ready for Shichibukai activity. Won't beat them but still...

I don't believe all of them will destroy Shichbukai on their own but it's good that with Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji being god moded some of the SHs are more normal.

Franky is an exception. :)

Now Lucci as above RA? Drake just showed a Very Very Rare fruit. Lizard Lizard Type Dino. He could take down Lucci within a heartbeat in a fight.

BlackHair
August 02, 2008, 10:47 AM
Before I forget this. Lucci is above Rear Admiral rank. Why? Drake is a Rear Admiral and way weaker then Lucci from what we've seen. And in my opinion Ussop would never beat a Sichibuki seriously. One last thing Lucci would probablly be able to beat both Moria and Crocodile no matter where they were.
I doubt that..

When fighting alot of stuff depends on like where you fight and exp If lucci was to fight croc in the desert I'm pretty sure he lose like alot of other people would but if he was like near a lake or something im pretty sure croc would lose one piece isn't the stronger one wins.

Exactly, we cant say Lucci is stronger then Corco or Moria. Well I do believe he could beat Moria but Crocco with his Logia power shouldn't be underestimated, just 'coz he was introduced early in the series.

And we cant estimate Drakes power on his previous rank. I'm sure he he got stronger since he left the marine, even if its just a bit. Also imo ranks doesn't matter, coz u can be promoted with hard work even if u r weak. Doesn't have to mean u have to be strong to get a certain rank, admiral and above must be sth different tho :P

paradoxe
August 02, 2008, 10:50 AM
We've hardly seen Drake fight, so can't really judge.

Besides, from what hes shown us, he seems to be pretty damn powerful. From stopping two fellow supernovae from fighting, to bashing a Pacifista into a wall and then nearly biting his head off, hes not some random weakling.

Luckas
August 02, 2008, 11:45 AM
2 posts about the latest chapter has been rendered invisible. If you guys continue talking about latest chapter outside the discussion thread before Monday, I could be forced to take harsher measures and I surely hope it will not be necessary.

Onomatopoeia
August 02, 2008, 01:45 PM
Lucci is fast enough so that I'm pretty sure he could hit Crocodile even with his Logia fruit.And besides Lucci could probablly figure out the blood/water thing he's not stupid. And the fact that Drake has been getting stronger make's it even more likely that Lucci is above Rear Admiral strength. And can't be controlled by them. It's likely he's at average VA strength.

UchihaMadara
August 02, 2008, 02:10 PM
Im pretty much guessing the reason Why crocodiles bounty is so low is because he has argueably the weakest Logia type. A weakness to water in a world themed around Sailing the Ocean just isnt practical. Crocodiles strength really depends on his surrounding environment unlike other Logia types we've seen so far.not to mention Crocodile is useless when its raining.

Id say the likely hood of Lucci beating crocodile in a fight is fairly high,at the very least they would end with a draw. Crocodile had to put a decent bit of effort into hitting a Non-gear luffy. Lucci with his soru and Gepo would very easily be able to evade Crocodiles slow sand attacks.

I dont however believe he could beat Moria so easily, most especially with Oz.
Moria's doppleman was able to deal with Luffy's non-gear form WAY easier then Lucci was able to, and Moria was sitting on his ass not even taking the fight seriously combine that with his ability to swap places at will and that makes Moria no push over. Lets not forget, Luffy didnt defeat Moria, the Strawhat Crew defeated Moria.

BlackHair
August 02, 2008, 05:27 PM
There can be many reasons why his bounty is low: like he didn't caused many trouble or he could have joined the Shichi early etc. btw a bounty doesn't show the actual strength of some1.

As for the fighting scenario, indeed Lucci could easily evade Cocos attacks, but what's with his sand tornado or w.e? I doubt he could evade sth like with speed. Croco has still his Logia ability, which means even tho Lucci is hell fast I doubt he could hit Croco before he turns in sand.
Im not sure but wasn't he able to stop the rain with his powers? True, the OP world is filled with water and less soil, but water means death for both of them therefore they would fight on soil and by turning soil into sand, Croco would change the environment to his favour.

Well I'm not saying Croco is stronger, but to say he would lose easily isn't right imo.

Id say the likely hood of Lucci beating crocodile in a fight is fairly high,at the very least they would end with a draw.
I agree with that :P

As for Moria, the SHs defeated Oz and Luffy defeated Moria with Gear 2+3. And I think his powers would just buy him more time, in the end he would lose to Lucci.


And the fact that Drake has been getting stronger make's it even more likely that Lucci is above Rear Admiral strength.
I forget to write it earlier: what makes u think that Drake is weaker then him? Since he was in the marine, maybe he is also able to use CP9s combat ability?! (Rokishi or sth, to lazy to google). We have seen Lucci pushed by Luffy, therefore we were able to see him at full strength. We have to w8 for a few chapter to see Drakes ability. If we compare only their zoan type origin, Drakes is more powerful I guess.

Im still thinking: Lucci as strong as the (average) VA, as strong as the (average) Shichibukai, weaker then Yonkou. By "average", he could beat some of them, but not all.

edit:

2 posts about the latest chapter has been rendered invisible. If you guys continue talking about latest chapter outside the discussion thread before Monday, I could be forced to take harsher measures and I surely hope it will not be necessary.
Sry about that, but I don't think any1 of us did that on purpose. How about we change the thread name and add "[Spoiler]? :P

There is a rule ;)

asking wont hurt :P

OP ROX
August 02, 2008, 05:38 PM
I dont think Lucci can beat Moria or croc.. in the desert Croc would pwn him.. and Moria becomes stronger when he sucks up all the shadows

paradoxe
August 02, 2008, 11:53 PM
There is a rule ~ Luckas

The only sensible way to live in this world is with no rules :P

Hahahah

However, you have to respect forum rules ;)


Anyway:
back on topic:


I dont think Lucci can beat Moria or croc.. in the desert Croc would pwn him.. and Moria becomes stronger when he sucks up all the shadows

Eh?
Luffy fought Croc in the desert, without his gears. Lucci is way faster, stronger, and more powerful then Croc, even if he had all the sand in the world. The only way I can see Croc winning is by grabbing Lucci and sucking out the water from his body. I mean, Lucci could just tekkai whenever Croc attacks him with sand, and it wouldn't have much of an effect on him. Rokushiki is pretty imba :P

OP ROX
August 03, 2008, 05:52 PM
you brought up some good points... ehh i donno i give up !!! il jus agree with you

bittman
August 03, 2008, 11:37 PM
I like how people reference things like: Luffy > Lucci > Moria because Luffy beat Moria and Lucci was hard. Or something like that.

Want a post-prediction? Luffy would have lost to Moria in a normal 1 on 1 fight. If you remember the battle, Moria only lost because of Nightmare Luffy's insane speed and power and Moria's carelessness in thinking he was fairly safe within Oz. I'd imagine sitting in a chair which gets tossed around isnt the easiest situation to get away from, and it was shown Nightmare Luffy scored tens of direct hits on Moria whilst pummeling Oz. If you then reference the battle after Oz's defeat where Moria, ridiculously beat up and insane to the point where he brought 1000 shadows to himself, then it is also not a correct measure given the points I just mentioned. Sure Luffy was also injured, but it was a fallout of Nightmare form and not direct attacks to his body.

Anyway, I could argue the point till I'm blue in the face, but my point is that Lucchi would either not have beaten Moria, or it would have been just as close as Luffy's battle with the Shichibukai was.

On topic, the best way to give a grade to Lucchi would be by giving him a fake bounty (as they did with Enel and Crocodile), but even then Lucchi would probably have a high bounty from a mix of his strength and his obvious love of blood and battle. I would predict, if Oda was asked, Lucchi would be given a similiar bounty to Enel (500 mil). As mentioned though, this doesn't mean he's stronger than Moria, Crocodile, etc. One Piece isn't extreme Janken (Rock Paper Scissors)

Onomatopoeia
August 03, 2008, 11:43 PM
You make some good points Bitman but I think if MOria wasn't given Shadow Asgard ability then Lucci could win. Moria is something like Crocodile with the desert if Moria has the help of his shadow's then yes he could probablly win but if it's a fair fight then I'd give it to Lucci.

If you bring in the crew of Moria then CP9 can help out Lucci too. Heck give Moria only 500 Shadows and I still think Lucci would win.