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Sodom_Child
May 13, 2006, 11:49 AM
I've been reading One Piece manga lately (still not up to date, because manga traders is down:( ) and I have some problems with understanding Zoro. After the fight with Mihawk he said that he will never again lose to anyone and I think that he broke this vow. I mean, he fought with Eneru, right? And Zoro was struck with one of his lightning attacks and lost consciousness, right? Luffy defeated that bastard. So didn't Zoro lose and break his vow? If so, then shouldn't he has some serious mental breakdown? Or maybe I am wrong? So can anybody explain it to me? :)

Galth
May 13, 2006, 11:52 AM
Well, in manga people say things like "i'll never lose to you / again" all the time, so perhaps he wasn't that serious? Or he didn't see it as a loss because neither of them died? Anyway, it's not that easy to get Zoro to give up if there's work to be done still ^^ ( that won't get him closer to his goal... )

Sodom_Child
May 13, 2006, 12:41 PM
I thought Zoro's man of his (s)word ;). Oda makes everything on purpose in One Piece and when he makes Zoro to say that he won't lose to anyone, Zoro shouldn't lose to anyone. And for 200 chapters or less (or more:) he didn't.
His dream is to be the best swordsman in the world, to do this he has to defeat Mihawk. And I am sure that when he will meet Mihawk again he will say somethin like 'Since our last fight I hasn't lost to anyone and I won't never lose, because I'm going to be the best swordsman!'.

And after fight with Mihawk Zoro didn't die, but he lost. The other thing is that deaths in One Piece are as rare as Chocobos in the real world :)

I know that ppl in manga often say 'i'll never lose again' and this kind'a stuff, but I thought One Piece is different. When I saw Eneru's powet I thought 'OK, Zoro stay away from him or he's gonna kick your ass', but he had to attack, because it is the way he is. I was kind'a dissapointed seein Zoro down and knowing that Luffy will take care of Eneru and Zoro will be left to only watch it.
Can someone prove me wrong? :)

Reloaded
May 13, 2006, 02:07 PM
I think Zoro meant when he fights another swordsman because he said i will never lose again and i will become the best swordsman i think he meant he wont loste to another swordsman and he hasnt yet.

Lohnt
May 13, 2006, 03:00 PM
While I understand people's argument of "only against swordsmen," I don't buy it. When I first saw him lose to Enel almost a year ago, I thought wtf? Zoro pledged he'd never lose, and he lost, that's all :/ And unfortunately he had a chance to beat him because he grabbed the kairoseki from Wipers boot. However he did just finish fighting Wiper, Ohm, the dog, the clone guys, etc.

Strawhat_4491
May 13, 2006, 03:55 PM
  I think Zoro meant that he would never lose to another swordsman. Eneru did'nt count in his vow because he was'nt a swordsman, that's why he fought so hard to defeat Mr.1 in Alabasta to keep his vow and get stronger. Eneru was just in his way and he wanted to fight and lost.

Lohnt
May 13, 2006, 05:29 PM
Mr. 1 wasn't a swordsman either, he could have given up.

But his resolve was that he would defeat him to cut steel.
His resolve against Enel should have been to cut the elements, it wasn't he lost.
Prove me wrong? Was Mr 1 not an assassin rather than a swordsman?

SchmoDawg
May 14, 2006, 03:03 PM
Mr. 1 wasn't a swordsman either, he could have given up.

But his resolve was that he would defeat him to cut steel.
His resolve against Enel should have been to cut the elements, it wasn't he lost.
Prove me wrong? Was Mr 1 not an assassin rather than a swordsman?


Yeah he wasn't a swordsman, He was a Blademan. Basically he turned his body into swords so to speak. It doesn't matter if he's an assassin, that doesn't mean you can't be a swordsman. (ie. Samurai or Ninjas) It wouldn't matter if he tried to cut elements, a logia user can be cut or shot and still return to normal. Plus how the hell could a sword do anything to lightning, the blade would just electricute the wielder.

Lohnt
May 14, 2006, 07:56 PM
... *sigh*

1) When Zoro was explaining his resolve against Mr 1, he said don't you understand as a swordsman or something to that effect, and Mr 1 responded " No because I'm not a swordsman, i'm an assassin, and my blades aren't my only weapon, my entire body is a weapon so don't consider me a swordsman."

2) The red book or whatever it's called said Mihawk can cut the elements, thus he is able to defeat a Logia.
That's what I meant by learning to cut the elements, learn to cut the elements, it's no different from learning to cut the air with a beam or cutting steel, it's just another skill you have to acquire.

So no after you learn the technique you wouldn't get electricuted, and the opponent can't just turn into his/her element.

SchmoDawg
May 14, 2006, 09:40 PM
... *sigh*

1) When Zoro was explaining his resolve against Mr 1, he said don't you understand as a swordsman or something to that effect, and Mr 1 responded " No because I'm not a swordsman, i'm an assassin, and my blades aren't my only weapon, my entire body is a weapon so don't consider me a swordsman."

2) The red book or whatever it's called said Mihawk can cut the elements, thus he is able to defeat a Logia.
That's what I meant by learning to cut the elements, learn to cut the elements, it's no different from learning to cut the air with a beam or cutting steel, it's just another skill you have to acquire.

So no after you learn the technique you wouldn't get electricuted, and the opponent can't just turn into his/her element.


Whoa thats cool as hell, I haven't read any of the databooks. I wonder if he'll ever learn that, cause it seems like most of the time its just Luffy fighting the logia users. I actually also remember remember Mr. 1 saying something to that extent now that you say that. Are the databooks scanlated???

Lohnt
May 14, 2006, 10:27 PM
Yes, I actually downloaded them and never got around to reading them through -_-

Umm, let me think, it was either the AP forums, or maybe the OP manga V2 forums that hosted it, either way just do a google/torrent search for it, and I'm sure you'll find it. If not, let me know I'll e-mail it to you.

Edit nevermind, I was thinking of the Colorwalk books, I'm not sure if the red book is translated, but people have certainly posted certain pie charts.. umm no the star diagram type charts (where an angle is bigger at the corresponding characteristic) on message boards I visit.

white silver
May 20, 2006, 01:39 AM
[b][font=tahoma][color=green]I think I really kind of believed that Zoro would never lose to a "swordsman" or people who uses swords as a weapon.  I mean, everytime he fights a "non-swordsman" he'll just put 100% at most.  But again a very tough swordsperson like Mr.1, he'll put 150%!  Man, didn't you realized he's been overkilled in that fight for about 2 or 3 times!  And it was such a very climatic event, you know, Zoro discovering how to cut steels, it was just so EXCITING.  I wish Naruto was as awesome as that!

Note: Best "swordsman", in other words the best sword wielder not FIGHTER in the world. Best swordsman can LOSE to non-swordsman!

hyper_megaman
May 25, 2006, 11:57 AM
zoro's aim was to be the best swordsman in the world.

let's revise that sentence

to be the most powerful person at using swords as weapons

even if he loses to eneru he's still the best swordsman in the world, eneru's no swordsman, he fights using his fruit mostly

so perhaps if like ace goes 'i'll become the best logiaman in the world!' and goes 'i'll never lose to anyone ever again', then i'd expect eneru to count for him

but not for zoro

Efreet
December 22, 2006, 04:18 AM
i don't think Zoro lost to Eneru because Eneru zapped him before Zoro could even take out his swords...

or am i mitaken?

white silver
December 22, 2006, 11:05 AM
zoro's aim was to be the best swordsman in the world.

let's revise that sentence

to be the most powerful person at using swords as weapons

even if he loses to eneru he's still the best swordsman in the world, eneru's no swordsman, he fights using his fruit mostly

so perhaps if like ace goes 'i'll become the best logiaman in the world!' and goes 'i'll never lose to anyone ever again', then i'd expect eneru to count for him

but not for zoro


[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]Indeed, even if he lost to Luffy he would still be considered the best swordsman in the world. Mihawk is currently the best but surely he is no stronger than Whitebeard. What Zoro meant when he actually lost is that he'll never lose a "sword" fight again.

jeffhmwong
December 22, 2006, 12:59 PM
Awww...just to be the best swordsman?

I tot his vow was to be the strongest warrior ever....

Since when he revised that?

white silver
December 22, 2006, 01:02 PM
Awww...just to be the best swordsman?

I tot his vow was to be the strongest warrior ever....

Since when he revised that?




[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]Strongest Warrior? Isn't that the job for the King of Pirates?

Mugiwara_no_Jack
December 23, 2006, 02:31 AM
When you look that way on the situation you can say he already lost against Arlong ;)

It is a vow for becoming the greatest swordsman so he can't and won't lose to another swordsman ;)

white silver
December 23, 2006, 03:53 AM
When you look that way on the situation you can say he already lost against Arlong ;)

It is a vow for becoming the greatest swordsman so he can't and won't lose to another swordsman ;)


[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]Indeed. He puts 150% when fighting against an opponent ( as long as that foe is carrying a sword). He cannot claim to be the best "swordsman" if he was defeated by another "swordsman". In other words, he has to keep winning at swords.

Absolutio
December 23, 2006, 05:49 AM
As all of you said. Zoro is aiming to be the greatest swordsman, so he should never lose to other swordsman.

Anyways, he still lost, but it was Enel, so it wasn't really a fair match from the start.. I didn't take this "break vow" so hard..

white silver
December 23, 2006, 06:04 AM
As all of you said. Zoro is aiming to be the greatest swordsman, so he should never lose to other swordsman.

Anyways, he still lost, but it was Enel, so it wasn't really a fair match from the start.. I didn't take this "break vow" so hard..


[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]As long as he doesn't lose to another swordman, it won't matter to Zoro that much. After being defeated 2001 times by Kuina and once more by Hawk-eyes, you can imagine the pressure he's being in. In other words this topic should that much relevance to his "loss" since we can deem it "uncountable" to the "other" losses for Zoro. Till we hear of another swordsman other than Mihawk that can best him, let's say so otherwise.

Efreet
December 26, 2006, 02:11 AM
i agree with Absulutio, it wasn't a fair match in the first place and Eneru uses his lightning powers whereas Zoro has to use his natural skills

jeffhmwong
December 26, 2006, 06:30 AM
Much as i am a fan of zoro.....defeat means defeat.....no excuse to that....

His vow was never to be defeated ever again, and I guess that didnt not go as smoothly as he planned.

Sad but true......he lost...

white silver
January 02, 2007, 09:00 AM
Much as i am a fan of zoro.....defeat means defeat.....no excuse to that....

His vow was never to be defeated ever again, and I guess that didnt not go as smoothly as he planned.

Sad but true......he lost...


[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]Umm... Zoro is going to suffer big time if he really lost. Would you say it was no "excuse" if Luffy turned out to be the King of Pirates and still defeat Zoro as a "best swordsman" in the world? Then there would be no meaning to his dream. We should not forget Zoro's dream is to be the BEST swordsman in the world through Evil or Good means. Defeat is not counted if it were not a sword battle, in fact did he not lose against Arlong after defeating Hachi (a Swordsman/fishman)? That's more than an okay excuse to me or else Oda would have a LOT of explaing to do.

xr3b0rn5inx
January 31, 2007, 10:26 AM
Not to say he lost to Eneru he juz got struck by Eneru's lightling bolt and fainted.There were not reali in combat so it doesnt reali count.....I guess

ibra87
February 19, 2007, 04:51 PM
Like most have said before me, (in my opinion) you can't really call it an even fight as Enel was not a swordsman. Fighting him without being able to hit him (which means without seastone forged swords) isn't really a fight.

The other point is that Enel was not Zorro's opponent. The priest with the dog was and Zorro finished him off. He can't just go and take Luffy's enemy from him (would be pretty boring, right?). Besides, even after being struck by lightning he (somehow) managed to cut that big tree and despite Enel's effort to stop him.

ForteAnly
February 20, 2007, 04:28 PM
If Zoro was able to cut through elements like Mihawk then there would have a been a different outcome. Enel would have been wounded by Zoro not sure if defeated based on Zoro's strenght at the time. But, like ibra87 said he couldn't take Luffy's oppenent from him.

falco_dergento
February 26, 2007, 11:08 PM
i agree that zoro lost to enel or perhaps to Lucci (if he ever got the chance to face him) or to maybe to any of luffy's enemies! but i dont think it's such a big deal that will depress him or anything like that. because his aim is to be the strongest swordsman, so i think thoso lost will not matter much for him..

Pimpolho
February 26, 2007, 11:24 PM
I agree taht he lost, but still going to his goal to be best swordman, and when he said he would not lost again, it was that he won´t need his enemies mercy like Mihawk. He will survive (litlle gay) no matter what.

hmalik1003
February 27, 2007, 05:56 PM
Zoro was beat by Kaku(i think thats the giraffe dude's name) and dont give me that "he wasn't serious" bs. He lost and that's that. He shouldn't of ever made that vow

falco_dergento
February 28, 2007, 03:41 AM
Zoro was beat by Kaku(i think thats the giraffe dude's name) and dont give me that "he wasn't serious" bs. He lost and that's that. He shouldn't of ever made that vow


i guess u couldn't say tha a loss, since the battle hadn't really finish yet.. at that time CP9 was bound by the promise with Robin ( the one that they will let the SH out of water7). in the end the battle did continue, and zoro won. it means that the enemy was beaten until kaku couldn't stand up anymore, that's the really conclusion of the battle.. not at the w7..

Eyefarted2
March 03, 2007, 06:55 PM
who cares? i bet zoro lost to hella people. they are just not showed on page in the manga

Strat
March 05, 2007, 07:43 PM
i agree with what some ppl said, zoro meant he wouldnt lose to another swordsman...and so far so good

The Boff
March 16, 2007, 09:19 AM
zoro didnt lose to either Enel or Lucci, unfortunatly in my opinion he has only won against the noname bountyhunters at whiskey peak.
he didnt lose to Enel cause after he was hit all he did was rest a few minutes then he was up and cutting beanstalks. same thing with Lucci. he was kicked away and fell down a chimney. a few minutes later he's up and cutting water.

Mihawk could have killed Zoro, no problem. but he choose to let him live, IE prolonging their duel. its not over yet.

but a swordsman(zoro) that attacks with intent to kill but fails to kill anyone is not in any position to say that he's "winning" anything. so no he hasnt lost to anyone and he's only won against the noname bountyhunters.

how can i reason like this?
simple, katanas are weapon that have only one purpose: kill people. If you do not use your weapon in the way it was meant then youre hardly a swordsman.

but luffy and sanji have never killed anyone either!
i know, but they do not fight with weapons that have only one purpose, they attack with their bodies. and bodies have a lot more purpose than fighting. so they have won tons of fights.


oh how much better the manga would be without the ban of death

Luckas
March 16, 2007, 09:39 AM
Imho, Zoro defeated Baroque Work's Mr. 1 and CP9's Kaku. Even if they aren't swordman they fought as they were that.

hmalik1003
March 19, 2007, 03:43 PM
zoro didnt lose to either Enel or Lucci, unfortunatly in my opinion he has only won against the noname bountyhunters at whiskey peak.
he didnt lose to Enel cause after he was hit all he did was rest a few minutes then he was up and cutting beanstalks. same thing with Lucci. he was kicked away and fell down a chimney. a few minutes later he's up and cutting water.

Mihawk could have killed Zoro, no problem. but he choose to let him live, IE prolonging their duel. its not over yet.

but a swordsman(zoro) that attacks with intent to kill but fails to kill anyone is not in any position to say that he's "winning" anything. so no he hasnt lost to anyone and he's only won against the noname bountyhunters.

how can i reason like this?
simple, katanas are weapon that have only one purpose: kill people. If you do not use your weapon in the way it was meant then youre hardly a swordsman.

but luffy and sanji have never killed anyone either!
i know, but they do not fight with weapons that have only one purpose, they attack with their bodies. and bodies have a lot more purpose than fighting. so they have won tons of fights.


oh how much better the manga would be without the ban of death


lol i can imagine something like dat in a boxing match. i aint lose. i can hit this bag afta i fell. LOOK AT ME!!! face it he lost.

The Boff
March 19, 2007, 03:53 PM
lol i can imagine something like dat in a boxing match. i aint lose. i can hit this bag afta i fell. LOOK AT ME!!!

honestly im not sure what youre talking about, what does boxing have to do with a swordsman?


face it he lost.

in my opinion no he didnt. he did not die, his fights should be to the death. and since he hasnt died then he hasnt lost.

OP_overlord
March 19, 2007, 10:34 PM
with that logic you are saying that he didnt lose to mihawk but i think we can all agree that he did

and just for the record i agree with you in just trying to make it a good debate and what not so because im devils advicate im going to say that he LOST

eventho it wasnt a fair fight cause eneru isnt a swordsman

The Boff
March 19, 2007, 10:46 PM
with that logic you are saying that he didnt lose to mihawk but i think we can all agree that he did


no he didnt by definition LOSE to Mihawk. this is how i see it:



Mihawk could have killed Zoro, no problem. but he choose to let him live, IE prolonging their duel. its not over yet.


and i'll explain it again. Zoro gave up, he just stood there and let Mihawk cut him. Zoro thought he was going to die. death, the end.
Mihawk spared him. why? because their duel was not to end there. Mihawk understood that this kid had the spirit of a true swordsman but he just attacked prematurely.
so he wounded him greatly and left him to live so he could come back and FINISH their duel later on.

so no he didnt lose and mihawk didnt win, their fight is just "paused".

hmalik1003
March 20, 2007, 04:02 PM
HE DID LOSE. Um if he didn't lose then he wouldn't have to make that promise to himself that he would neva lose again. Do you see the logic in making a promise not to lose AGAIN if u didn't lose to begin wit. From what your saying, Zoro neva lost a match cuz he is still alive but then he wouldn't say AGAIN if he was dead right. and i was using boxing to show u how wrong u were. You don't have to die to lose(swordfight or whateva) that logic may have been useful in some otha manga but it wouldn't make sense in OP cuz HE IS STILL ALIVE

LOOK AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD
It is stated that he made that promise to himself. *napoleon dynamite* "gosh"

OP_overlord
March 20, 2007, 09:25 PM
i see wat you mean ,Mr. Boff, with the fighting being on hold so that zoro can learn to fight with his mind aswell (whicih i dont see happening he is just gettting stronger not faster,smarter,... he is still no match for mihawk)

but i also agree with hmalik1003 zoro wouldnt have made the promise not to lose again if he didnt lose

you even helped prove the point that he lost when you said that



Zoro thought he was going to die. death, the end.


which means that zoro thought that the fight was over and knew he lost and saved face by dieing the way a true swordsman should and then mihawk spared him

dfcarolinaguy
March 26, 2007, 10:46 PM
I have heard this debate from a lot of threads, and I have come up with my own opinion and that is I don't know lol, but Zoro did lose.

ubo
April 07, 2007, 04:15 PM
Everyone's overlooking one simple thing in this thread: There's an understanding, especially between swordsmen (but not limited to them), of the difference between a "match" and a clashing of swords (or whatever weapons they happen to fight with). Neither Enel, Lucci, or Kaku beat Zoro. Enel struck him with lightning and then left. He did not accept Zoro as an opponent; it wasn't a match. Lucci kicked him away, but he was fine, and Kaku injured him when he wasn't even paying attention. There's no way that counts as a loss. A loss is when both fighters put everything they have into the fight and one of them is unable to continue. This is the logic used in OP and in many other mangas. Both fighters have to accept these unspoken "terms" in any duel before either of them can lose. I would honestly expect people to understand this.

jeffhmwong
April 16, 2007, 04:20 AM
Everyone's overlooking one simple thing in this thread: There's an understanding, especially between swordsmen (but not limited to them), of the difference between a "match" and a clashing of swords (or whatever weapons they happen to fight with). Neither Enel, Lucci, or Kaku beat Zoro. Enel struck him with lightning and then left. He did not accept Zoro as an opponent; it wasn't a match. Lucci kicked him away, but he was fine, and Kaku injured him when he wasn't even paying attention. There's no way that counts as a loss. A loss is when both fighters put everything they have into the fight and one of them is unable to continue. This is the logic used in OP and in many other mangas. Both fighters have to accept these unspoken "terms" in any duel before either of them can lose. I would honestly expect people to understand this.


I agree with ubo on kaku and luchii. there was never a real battle there......BUT....

Enerus case is diff.They were all in a battle.zoro,wiper, robin, the knight ...they were all preparing for a battle. How can you say there isnt a battle?

and pls, i do not want to repeat this over again , Zoros sworn to never to loose another battle.....THATS ALL.....

No quote on whether the battle is with a DF user, Swordsman, sea monster etc

HE LOST.I m a huge zorro fan too.

Y cant u all jes face it.....

OP_overlord
April 16, 2007, 12:25 PM
cause i like many understood zoro's vow to mean that he wasnt going to lose o another swordsman ever period, and he has kept his word up

ubo i too agree with you about eneru, kaku, and lucci but i dont agree with the "match" defination (or well i agree zoro wouldnt) when he was fighting MR. 1 the steel guy zoro was excited because he was facing a DF steel swordsman and they were both putting everthing they had into and zoro won, but he didnt count his win because MR 1 wasnt a true swordsman he could use drill attacks aswell
so that proves that zoro only respects battles with other swordsmen so he might have lost to eneru but he doesnt think of it like that just that he needs to get stronger and beat everone

firework
April 22, 2007, 04:24 PM
I think Zoro meant when he fights another swordsman because he said i will never lose again and i will become the best swordsman i think he meant he wont loste to another swordsman and he hasnt yet.

Yeah, i agree, he hasnt lost to any other swordsmen, well unless u count Arlong, but he used his sword after fighting Zoro. Besides, it makes more sense for a swordsmen to never lose to another swordsman rather than a random fighter. Also, Zoro was already badly injured during his battle so that may not have counted as a loss.