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destinator
October 19, 2007, 12:55 PM
Huh another chapter just arrived. Be sure to check it out HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20111) if you dont already have.

So whats up for next week, do we see Jiraiyas ultimative fight? Or maybe Pain will just finish him off in a split second? Be sure to tell us your opinion but don't forget to stay friendly and don't spam.

Enjoy.

Alexis
October 19, 2007, 01:04 PM
Just the fact that Jiraya has lasted this long could mean that Pain's powers are overrated, at least the way he refers to himself. A God would have just done away with the lowly human intruder you'd think. But it could also have something to do with why Pain isn't using any jutsus.

I hope we get to see this sixth element, unless that was a typo mistake in the manga.
Jiraya going all out isn't the greatest of signs for his survival though. But I hope we get to see both some hermit mode and rinnegan in the next chapter.

adel123456789
October 19, 2007, 01:48 PM
super jiraya

Panda
October 19, 2007, 01:54 PM
Oh.. Please let the 6th element be bubble gum!!!... Is Shadow an element?

To those who think yin/yang is element. Yin Yang is a break down of your ki, or chakra (in hindu language).. Your ki is too yang when you have a fever, and too yin when you have low blood pressure and hold hands and feet (in many cases).

I can use Kuchiyose to summon 911!!!

fxu
October 19, 2007, 01:59 PM
Jiraiya is taking the summoning technique to a whole new fucking level that we won't see again.

Enjoy it.

TheChosenOne
October 19, 2007, 02:23 PM
Jiraiya looked morbid in the last page. With Gamaken looking like that also. The next chapter will be about how Jiraiya is in a class all by himself. (Except Yondy, Madara and maybe pain). Can't wait to see how powerful jiraiya really is.
[hr]
The chance of Jiraiya dying is looking a little slimer.

narutokuro
October 19, 2007, 02:28 PM
WTF ! This fight will end in my tears, i have no doubt! Pein better not underestimate jiraiya. The rest of the manga will have to wait. This fight needs to be 12 chapters long. Mastering 6 elements? Wind, water, fire, earth, lightning and..."heart"! If not heart then what? Space, time...the infinity gauntlet?

I now know why orochimaru joined akatuski. B/c this Pein guy is the truth!

TheChosenOne
October 19, 2007, 02:37 PM
Lightning is not considered as a major element as the other 4. So it prolly might be something that is connected with the other 4. Since wind and lightning are connected cuz of friction caused. So the 6th might be connected with earth wind fire and water. Or maybe a mixed element with the power of all 5. That would be awesome. FLEWW (added the first letter of each of the 5 elements)

Skywolf666
October 19, 2007, 02:42 PM
Lightning is it's own Jutsu element, Yamato explained that to Naruto during his training.

Couldn't be shadow because Kakashi explained that the yin/yang elements work differently.

chances are it'll be a last resort attack Pein has.

lordHokage
October 19, 2007, 02:48 PM
Orochimaru should have gone after Pein and not Sasuke. :blink

Prediction: Pein would be :confused:

mrwhos
October 19, 2007, 02:53 PM
The sixth might be "LIFE"? I'm not talking about the life-gates. And that's why he have i don't know 6 bodys? Might b far fetched but i bet a penny i'm onright lead about the sixt elementh.


Edit: Problely move this post to the discussion thread.

TheChosenOne
October 19, 2007, 03:00 PM
Pain would have killed Orchimaru. The Gap of Power between Orochimaru and Pain is too big.
[hr]
What about light or darkness as the 6 the element. Since the rinnegan has the power to save or destroy the world. That makes sense. Since light can save and darkness can destroy.
[hr]

Lightning is it's own Jutsu element, Yamato explained that to Naruto during his training.

Couldn't be shadow because Kakashi explained that the yin/yang elements work differently.

chances are it'll be a last resort attack Pein has.

Yes, ligtning is a jutsu element. but all the jutsu elements are based on the four natural elements. Lighting is not considred a natural element. The other 4 are.

Serg3
October 19, 2007, 03:02 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_elements_(Japanese_philosophy)

Interesting stuff. The "Void" Element could be the sixth one. The wikipedia description really seems to fit in with whats been going on recently.

I suppose lightning could fall in this category, but other people have said lightning is its own jutsu element, so I'm guessing they're seperate.

TheChosenOne
October 19, 2007, 03:07 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_elements_(Japanese_philosophy)

Interesting stuff. The "Void" Element could be the sixth one. The wikipedia description really seems to fit in with whats been going on recently.

I suppose lightning could fall in this category, but other people have said lightning is its own jutsu element, so I'm guessing they're seperate.

That article is where I drew my conclusion about lighting not being one of the 5 natural elements.

Go to this linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element

ornis
October 19, 2007, 03:17 PM
I don't understand where the argument over lightning is going. Raiton is a jutsu element. We don't know what the sixth justu element is, but lightning is already established as one of the five known jutsu elements. You seem to be searching for it's meaning, the reason why it is there... is this to discover a correlation with the sixth element somehow or just a theoretical interest? I'd honestly like to know.

Additionally, why not consider lightning's relationship to fire as a plasma, and even it's relationship to water on different terms...?

lordHokage
October 19, 2007, 03:29 PM
Yamato told Naruto there are 5 elements. According to Pervy Sage there are 6. :p :D

zidane
October 19, 2007, 03:39 PM
there must be darkness, since there is lightning ;):D

Hockeychaoz
October 19, 2007, 03:43 PM
Anyone notice that the Frog on Jiriya's left has a little resemblence to the third?
Pointy hokage hat, and beard. Maybe tribute to his sensei?

Obviously not saying it is him, but thought it was interesting.

I cant wait till next week to see what these guys can do. Thank god naruto is still sick, bleach is slipping.

[edit] we need someone to make sure thats not a typo or something. lol, it'd suck to make all these theories and get pumped for a simple typo.
But if there is another element, my monies on shadow.]

[edit #2] All peins summons have rinnegan.]

Serg3
October 19, 2007, 03:47 PM
I don't understand where the argument over lightning is going. Raiton is a jutsu element. We don't know what the sixth justu element is, but lightning is already established as one of the five known jutsu elements. You seem to be searching for it's meaning, the reason why it is there... is this to discover a correlation with the sixth element somehow or just a theoretical interest? I'd honestly like to know.

Additionally, why not consider lightning's relationship to fire as a plasma, and even it's relationship to water on different terms...?

My wording is a little off in my first post. I guess what I was trying to say is that lightning isn't listed as one of the 5 elements on the wikipedia page, but it shares some of the qualities that "void" has. It's possible that lightning is a simplified version of void and the 5 elements are accounted for, making the 6th is something completely different. If they're seperate though, void could be related to the 6th element mentioned in the last chapter.

It seems like they should be seperate to me, since in the description there is only a small overlap and a lot of differences.

This is all assuming the element system in naruto is similar to the one in the article though. The article could have nothing to do with anything. :D

ElToroDelDiablo
October 19, 2007, 03:49 PM
1. Wind
2. Fire
3. Water
4. Earth
5. Lightning (I don`t think so that this is a main element, but in the manga there was...) or Yin
6. Yin or/and Yang

guesswho
October 19, 2007, 03:57 PM
This is very far fetched but what if the last element is meant to be all the gekkei genkais :eyeroll You know, Jiraiya said Pain learned all the jutsus he taught to him, so maybe there's a slight chance that he can also learn all the gekkei genkais if he sees them :darn or not that is soooooo sharingan

lordHokage
October 19, 2007, 04:18 PM
In theory, lightning is not a real aka natural element but in Naruto’s world it is. :blink

Another Prediction: Pein will be forced to retreat because of his people (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/07/ ) are now caught in the crossfire. :blink

heiky0711
October 19, 2007, 04:53 PM
A great chapter! My prediction is to see what jiraiya can do with his high-level summoning technique maybe to a point where Pain starts using other techniques. Pain is tough and still has a lot jutsus up in his sleeves. I think the 6th element of chakra may be reveal in the next two chapters and jiraiya won't be surprise at all because he is pain's sensei.

So one of the rinnigen's power is to manipulate all forms of animals such as sasuke manipulating manda ( sharingan). We might see jiraiya come to an end in this naruto world but at least he would buy some time for naruto and hopefully he'll gain and pass all these important information to konoha and hence naruto about pain's ability so that naruto can work on pain's weaknesses if he has one.

Inevitable_Exit
October 19, 2007, 04:58 PM
Hmm. Interesting chapter. Anyone else think something is up? Jiraiya seemed to make a big deal about Pain only using summons. Makes me wonder if A) Kishi is dropping us some hints that each body has a different style or B) Pain =/= Nagato. All those Pain = Yahiko using Nagato's techniques rejoice.

Either way, next chapter we get to see Jiraiya using some intense technique. He will get the upper hand on Pain then maybe a revelation at the end or something.

X.

heiky0711
October 19, 2007, 05:00 PM
just to add another point:

Maybe pain is manipulating the rain villagers to trust him and his goals by using his rinningen. Just a thought onlyy ! :)

ornis
October 19, 2007, 05:04 PM
My wording is a little off in my first post. I guess what I was trying to say is that lightning isn't listed as one of the 5 elements on the wikipedia page, but it shares some of the qualities that "void" has. It's possible that lightning is a simplified version of void and the 5 elements are accounted for, making the 6th is something completely different. If they're seperate though, void could be related to the 6th element mentioned in the last chapter.

It seems like they should be seperate to me, since in the description there is only a small overlap and a lot of differences.

This is all assuming the element system in naruto is similar to the one in the article though. The article could have nothing to do with anything. :D

Thanks for the clarification; I'd like to know TheChosenOne's aim as well.

You've got an interesting point about how there is a small overlap in similarities. I can agree. Lightning is energetic, but it is a direction of energy, a version of it. The idea behind void involves the incorporation of basic forms that feed actions (action potentials) without the materialization of any physical force (or sensible energy) exactly propelling it. It's represented by everything that's atomic (it's even illustrated at the founding levels of atoms). It arouses creation. Lightning should be created from it. It's... like... imagination.... //like "the human element" >.>


Kū is of particular importance as the highest of the elements. In martial arts, particularly in fictional tales where the fighting discipline is blended with magic or the occult, one often invokes the power of the Void to connect to the quintessential (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintessence_%28classical_element%29) creative energy of the world. A warrior properly attuned to the Void can sense his surrounding and act without thinking, and without using his physical senses.

Silver Dragon
October 19, 2007, 05:09 PM
My guess is that next chapter Pain will keep using Summonings. I Think that each body has a special abilitie of its Own.

Maybe his Powers are so big that he decided to transfer each ability he has in different bodies. but i'm sure his sixth body is the original and that it uses all those Abilities that he transfered in his fake bodies. But only wants to use his full Power as a Last resort.

Serg3
October 19, 2007, 06:04 PM
Thanks for the clarification; I'd like to know TheChosenOne's aim as well.

You've got an interesting point about how there is a small overlap in similarities. I can agree. Lightning is energetic, but it is a direction of energy, a version of it. The idea behind void involves the incorporation of basic forms that feed actions (action potentials) without the materialization of any physical force (or sensible energy) exactly propelling it. It's represented by everything that's atomic (it's even illustrated at the founding levels of atoms). It arouses creation. Lightning should be created from it. It's... like... imagination.... //"The human element" >.>

Where they don't overlap also is pretty interesting.

The mention of the void being associated with "people in a higher state of consciousness" and having the alternate meaning of "heaven" coincides quite well with Pain's whole thing about being a god/ascending past being human. Also, the bodily representation of void being spirit, thought, and energy could provide the means by which he can change bodies.

This is primarily what leads me to think that void could be the 6th element or at least have some connection to it. Again, it could all just be a coincidence and I could just be making connections that arent there.

It just occured to me that I havent actually made a prediction for the next chapter yet. :D

I expect to see some more summons from Pain, as well as some cool stuff from Jiraiya's new technique. I'm guessing that Jiraiya will be able to handle the summons, and the chapter will conclude with Pain deciding to actually step in and use a technique other than a summon. That's when Jiraiya will start to get into trouble.

Alex_1
October 19, 2007, 07:08 PM
Predictions - not too hard on this one. more fighting. :D But hopefully there'll be a flashback. I'm starting to think that Yahiko isn't really dead, or that Nagato didn't forcefully kill him. They're connected, maybe even the same being. But I think this flashback is at least two-three chapters away.

And it's something how when Uchihas use animals, those animals have Sharingan and Pein's summons have Rinnegan. So it will be interesting to see what those eyes do. I think it will be a tragic ending in a few weeks... hopefully it won't be some sort of 'genjutsu' where Jiraiya is tricked with the all too familiar "you were always trapped..."... b'cause that's getting a little lame. :p Just like I hiope it's not a type of Dragonball Z thing where one power-up is offset by the other character's superior power up. Boy am I cynical...

gcd
October 19, 2007, 07:14 PM
I think pain wanna prove that hes "god", fighting jyraia only with kutchyose, wich is jyraia speciality.
I predict that jyraia will "win" this chapter and the next one pain will reveal full power, and jyraia ( :((( i love him ) will die.

Sorry about my english, im working on it.

Lov u all.

cinamax
October 19, 2007, 08:56 PM
6th chakra type must be Summing No Chakra

ferza
October 19, 2007, 09:11 PM
Jirariya is too kind...he wont kill Pein or Nagato...and at the end he will get himself killed like many characters in this story: eg. Sandaime and Oro...

Toad Sage
October 19, 2007, 10:01 PM
I predict Jiraiya will continue to reveal new and cooler layers of his character. In the next issue he'll transform into an even younger, stronger version of himself with more face paint and multiple ninja abilities. Pain will realize he his hardly a god and resign himself to the spectacle of seeing his ass kicked repeatedly by the one and only toad sage :)

Seriously, I think we'll see Jiraiya "sort Pain out" only to realize after he's spent all his energy that Pain in fact has ten more levels of ability but Jiraiya only managed to partially tire one. You know, the same way every manga battle in history goes. After Jiraiya realizes it's all over we'll probably see him die, but I doubt that will be coming in the next issue.

Last, as much as I LOVE Jiraiya, has anyone noticed this is becoming yet another Naruto free arc of the book? We haven't seen the main character in thirty five issues. What is going on with this story?

Audition
October 19, 2007, 11:05 PM
Woah. nice chapter indeed

well i predict Jiraiya will kill that chameleon!

also will see some Jiraiya sensei's some forbidden jutsu of his XD

TheChosenOne
October 20, 2007, 12:01 AM
Is one of the frogs related to Gamabunta. it said somethin about pops being mad. That has to about Gamabunta. Pain will win the battle but I think jiraiya is gonna give a very tough time. I see Pain narrowingly winning and learning that he is not a god as he thought.
[hr]
I don't know why people are saying that Pain will lose. He has the rinnegan and mastery of all elemental chakra. It's just a matter of time before Pain unleashes his true power. I think the reason pain is using summons instead of his abilities is prolly cuz he doesn't see Jiraiya as a threat. Now that Jiraiya has brought out his sennin mode which will open Pain's eyes and make him see that he is fighting with someone powerful and cannot be disregarded as a human. So the next chapter he will finally see Jiraiya go all out and decide that he has to get serious and use his potential.

Okia
October 20, 2007, 12:06 AM
Jirariya is too kind...he wont kill Pein or Nagato...and at the end he will get himself killed like many characters in this story: eg. Sandaime and Oro...

another example is Sasuke killing Oro..


Is one of the frogs related to Gamabunta. it said somethin about pops being mad. That has to about Gamabunta. Pain will win the battle but I think jiraiya is gonna give a very tough time. I see Pain narrowingly winning and learning that he is not a god as he thought.


hmm i think they are either related to Gamabunta or Jiraiya, cos he called one of them big sister, and the other frog called it mom. and jiraiya being able to change form into a frog-like then that might be a trait he got from his family,. kinda like kiba and akamaru's.

but then again, why wud he summon them if they were his family right...
pls dont kill me. im just thinking out of the box xD

The Noobslayer
October 20, 2007, 12:17 AM
another example is Sasuke killing Oro..




hmm i think they are either related to Gamabunta or Jiraiya, cos he called one of them big sister, and the other frog called it mom. and jiraiya being able to change form into a frog-like then that might be a trait he got from his family,. kinda like kiba and akamaru's.

but then again, why wud he summon them if they were his family right...
pls dont kill me. im just thinking out of the box xD

The way I understood it, the two frogs J-dawg summoned are married, one being "Ma" and the other being "Pa".

It is really funny though besides the fact that they are talking toads, but the fact that they are hill-billy accented talking toads is just hilarious imo.

Edit: My prediction: Jiraiya explains the two hermits to "Pein" (us, the readers) or Pein does it. Either Pein has to stop summoning random shit or he loses that body in the next two chapters.

TheChosenOne
October 20, 2007, 12:28 AM
Well Pain's not gonna lose, he will win. It's what's been happenin in Naruto since the beginning. Teacher getting surpassed by their students. Oro with Sandaime, Minato with Jiraiya. Naruto with Kakahsi. Shikamaru with Asuma. Sakura with Tsunade (Obviously, gonna happen down the road). With all that evidence Pain is stronger that Jiraiya. I think it's fitting how all the powerful people die in the hands of the students. If jiraiya is stronger than pain that would bring about a plot hole in the story. The older generation has to die.

*Exception to my theory - Kakashi and Minato (Well come on Naruto is the only one going to surpass Yondy. So that works out.

Okia
October 20, 2007, 12:49 AM
kakashi didnt surpassed yondy..
thats sad,. and he became a jounin at age 13...
[hr]
i kinda see a foreshadowing of team hebi being consist of naruto[suigetsu]=both are powerful and stubborn, sakura[karin]=medic experts?, and juugo[sai]=quiet ones... their new purpose? AK leaders Pein or Tobi

what do u guys think/?

TheChosenOne
October 20, 2007, 12:55 AM
kakashi didnt surpassed yondy..
thats sad,. and he became a jounin at age 13...
<hr noshade size="1">
i kinda see a foreshadowing of team hebi being consist of naruto[suigetsu]=both are powerful and stubborn, sakura[karin]=medic experts?, and juugo[sai]=quiet ones... their new purpose? AK leaders Pein or Tobi

what do u guys think/?

I didnt say Kakashi surpassed yondy, I stated the opposite and the bottom of my post with an asterisk.

garaa89
October 20, 2007, 01:26 AM
good day and good night jiraiya we will miss you

Okia
October 20, 2007, 01:30 AM
I didnt say Kakashi surpassed yondy, I stated the opposite and the bottom of my post with an asterisk.

i didnt say that u said Kakashi surpassed yondy.
LOL... sounded like i did, but no xD.

Alexis
October 20, 2007, 03:05 AM
That Naruto surpassed Kakashi I would heavily question myself. Then again, Naruto can't use that jutsu many times more, so I guess Kakashi has to reconcider that statement. lol
And even so, 100 out of 100 times I'd chose to have Kakashi with me on a mission rather than Naruto. I always thought that comment was strange.

Anyway, winning doesn't always mean you're stronger. You can simply be matched with the wrong type of opponent or other circumstances may determine the outcome of the match. That said, I think Jiraya if anyone has the best chance of fighting Pain, since he knows so much about him.

dandy65
October 20, 2007, 04:07 AM
...

hmm i think they are either related to Gamabunta or Jiraiya, cos he called one of them big sister, and the other frog called it mom. and jiraiya being able to change form into a frog-like then that might be a trait he got from his family,. kinda like kiba and akamaru's.

but then again, why wud he summon them if they were his family right...
pls dont kill me. im just thinking out of the box xD

Can be possible. The words used was the elder sister, so it could mean that person was Jiraiya's eldest sister, or it could mean she was the eldest sister among the frogs.


The way I understood it, the two frogs J-dawg summoned are married, one being "Ma" and the other being "Pa".



The words used was, the child's father and the child's mother, like when I do something wrong, my mom tells my dad, "you're the child's father". So it would mean they are married. :|

------

My prediction : Pein will start getting serious and do some real damage while fighting the toad gang which is really strong.
[hr]

6th chakra type must be Summing No Chakra

Lol

Kage_JD
October 20, 2007, 05:17 AM
Yeah this thingy bout 6 elemnts is a bid confusing
all i know is: fire, water, earth, and lightning
n sum otheres are: wood (yamato, shodaime) and ice (Haku)
i hope we gon get sum more information bout that
however jiraya seems 2 be quite strong......
I never knew that jiraya could summon sumthin like THAT ..
plus if u remeber pein summoned monsters did sumthin like a attack
n there was a hole (i thought he is k.o)
then they showed him with two other freaks n he dind even have a scratch Geee so lets see whuts gon happen in tha next chapter!

wojo
October 20, 2007, 06:23 AM
To go along with the summation of elements, maybe the 6th element is a combination of all 5 into an unstoppable element.

GantzerVSNightmare
October 20, 2007, 07:26 AM
i love those Toads , how strong and serious can Jiraya get ?! he's the best Sanin indeed !!

zidane
October 20, 2007, 09:11 AM
Yeah this thingy bout 6 elemnts is a bid confusing
all i know is: fire, water, earth, and lightning
n sum otheres are: wood (yamato, shodaime) and ice (Haku)
i hope we gon get sum more information bout that
however jiraya seems 2 be quite strong......
I never knew that jiraya could summon sumthin like THAT ..
plus if u remeber pein summoned monsters did sumthin like a attack
n there was a hole (i thought he is k.o)
then they showed him with two other freaks n he dind even have a scratch Geee so lets see whuts gon happen in tha next chapter !

and what about Naruto´s Element? Fuuton? or Wind-Element...
and the others you now are just combined elements...when you posses earth and water, than you´re also able of Wood...and haku had lightning and Water...i guess...

and nobody knew about jiraiya and his special summon...of this toads...

and the next chapter: we finally WILL see Naruto...because it´s to exciting what happens with Jiraiya...

Rinnegan
October 20, 2007, 09:24 AM
The third eye is the ajna chakra (sixth chakra).
In the Indian tradition, it is referred to as the jnana-chaksu, the eye of knowledge.

Does fit with the whole Rin'negan thingy, don't you think? :)

ornis
October 20, 2007, 10:23 AM
I was beginning to think that the Sixth element was the mind---but I was leaning to imagination.

I hinted to the possibility when I reviewed Serg3's point, earlier. I just want to note that I have wondered before if the Rinnegan's purpose was to make the user aware of how he isn't aware. It made sense when I came to this conclusion, though I kept the fact to myself:




My wording is a little off in my first post. I guess what I was trying to say is that lightning isn't listed as one of the 5 elements on the wikipedia page, but it shares some of the qualities that "void" has. It's possible that lightning is a simplified version of void and the 5 elements are accounted for, making the 6th is something completely different. If they're seperate though, void could be related to the 6th element mentioned in the last chapter.

It seems like they should be seperate to me, since in the description there is only a small overlap and a lot of differences.

This is all assuming the element system in naruto is similar to the one in the article though. The article could have nothing to do with anything. :D

Thanks for the clarification; I'd like to know TheChosenOne's aim as well.

You've got an interesting point about how there is a small overlap in similarities. I can agree. Lightning is energetic, but it is a direction of energy, a version of it. The idea behind void involves the incorporation of basic forms that feed actions (action potentials) without the materialization of any physical force (or sensible energy) exactly propelling it. It's represented by everything that's atomic (it's even illustrated at the founding levels of atoms). It arouses creation. Lightning should be created from it. It's... like... imagination.... //like "the human element" >.>


Kū is of particular importance as the highest of the elements. In martial arts, particularly in fictional tales where the fighting discipline is blended with magic or the occult, one often invokes the power of the Void to connect to the quintessential (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintessence_%28classical_element%29) creative energy of the world. A warrior properly attuned to the Void can sense his surrounding and act without thinking, and without using his physical senses.


Notice that I say like. As if I'm subtly suggesting that it's not there yet. It seems that there is a cycle to all this. The atomic level arouses creation; and the human element, the mind, arouses it too...

Then I came across this:



In the metaphysical lore of the East, there are several ways that have been developed over the centuries to explain the workings of the universe and man's existence within this cosmic framework. Two such 'ways' or systems developed to do this were the Godai or 'Five Great Elements' and the Gogyo, the 'Five Goings or Journeys.'



The Godai's 5-elements are called manifestations or appearances and are seen as a means of cataloging all the parts or individual 'items' that show up in existence. The elements of chi, sui, ka and fu or the earth, water, fire and void go much further than identifying those natural phenomena that each seems to point out. The element 'earth,' for example, alludes to much more than simply the ground beneath our feet. It is a way of identifying and coming to a deeper understanding of those firm, absolute, and stable aspects of existence, regardless of whether we are operating on a natural, human, sub-atomic, conscious or subconscious, or pure energy level. The same goes for the remaining elements.


This system, imported from Tibet, is often used as a way of describing the creation of the universe. First there was a single germinating cause ("Big Bang," God's word, etc.), representing the formless potential and creative aspect at the void level. Next, atomic particles gravitated toward each other forming loosely grouped masses which were free moving, called gasses in the scientific community. As these gasses at the fu or 'wind' level continued to condense in on each other they began to react with one another, giving way to the connectedness, energy and reactiveness of the 'fire' element. Continuing to condense to the point where the particles were close enough to roll around on each other, they became the elements and 'things' in a fluid state. Finally, coming together to the point where motion can no longer be discerned (there is ALWAYS motion), the solid, firm "earth-like,' aspects of existence came to be.


This systematic coming into being is also seen in the creation of a living organism but I will use the Gogyo to explain this process (in that it is easier to see). But the godai can be used to easily identify the 'formation' of the organism after 'creation.' (Check your science notes folks.)


First the physical tissues and structure, including the heart forms. Next the heart begins to beat and the fluids begin to 'flow' and circulate. The baby does not yet breath air so the oxygen metabolism and continual cell division is the representation of the 'fire' element in operation. As the child enters the world, the 'wind' element comes into being as he or she takes their first breath. And finally, they learn to think and communicate with their world around them. It is here that we enter the connection of the two elemental systems, or the forming of the Rokudai or '6 Great Elements.' The ability to think and communicate, to create and conceptualize requires consciousness beyond the preprogramming at the primitive cellular level of the animal world. This requirement then become the underpinnings or foundation of all we experience. The sixth element, shitta (citta in pali, sittam in Sanskrit), 'mind' is the combinations and flow of the gogyo on a human psychological level.
[hr]
Here's one of my thoughts:


Pain to Jiraiya: "You're nothing but an outsider"

What tone do you think he has there, Kaylee? It sounds condemning, in my opinion, as if Jiraiya came into their life, an outsider... and left as a Sensei. But even in leaving, he left them "so alone" (as it may feel to them that they were so alone) that they began to not so eagerly tell themselves, "We have to raise ourselves."

And they ended up replacing the teacher who believed in them when there was too much ahead of them that had yet to test their limits. Including a test that may have led to Yahiko's death...

There was too much to show them how "weak" their hearts were. Too much to make them arrogantly deny the advice that, after a few "epiphanies," only an outsider would virtuously use, in an outsider's idea of virtuous (let's think like a cynical Pain here).

So they never really grew up, like Jiraiya implies.

They possibly became blind; they possibly did die--- as Jiraiya's students.

It's like he taught them nothing. That could be the idea, I'd see in their mind. And though this is postulation, it feels so fitting... it gives the Rin'negan's only known user such a human tinge...

//Could the Rin'negan's purpose be to help make its user human... more than the Human Path (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_realms#Human_realm) is human... Rin'negan could make its user humble... to the point that the user is aware of how the user isn't aware...

And I'm glad you posted what supports it. The user is human so in a way, if the user understands how he isn't aware, he understands how humankind is blind. At the time, when I posted the above idea, I didn't think of searching for the evidence >.>;




Higher consciousness:
...also called super consciousness (Yoga), Buddhic consciousness (Theosophy), cosmic consciousness and God-consciousness (Sufism and Hinduism), Christ consciousness (New Thought)

...expressions used in various spiritual traditions to denote the consciousness of a human being who has reached a higher level of evolutionary development and who has come to know reality as it is.

[...]

These faculties are aroused by and developed in conjunction with certain dispositions of character such as patience, kindness, truthfulness, humility and forgiveness towards one's fellow man – qualities without which higher consciousness is not possible.
In the spiritual traditions of India, consciousness is understood to be obscured by defilements which are compared to clouds covering the sun.Clouds? Akatsuki cloak? hmm? :blink

I bet Pain has not completely mastered the Rinnegan... in a sense. But it seems you can't really define his mastery by saying he has to apply Rinnegan with moral righteousness, in our idea of morality. He may be so skilled... he can use his knowledge to deceive and destroy... and actually be heroic in a non-human sense of justice.... And Pain may still possess a kind teaching method and choose to hide it... therefore, that choice may be his downfall.

Okia
October 20, 2007, 10:32 AM
the sixth element shud be part of nature..
knowledge/mind element doesnt fit..or maybe it does o_0
who knows?

ornis
October 20, 2007, 10:46 AM
Right, who knows >.> :amuse

But, nature>man>mind... mind is shaped by nature... but that's only on part of the puzzle.

So, it fits to me :D

//And the x>y>z idea is using "shaped" as a condition. So x shapes y, and y shapes z.

ElToroDelDiablo
October 20, 2007, 12:08 PM
On wikipedia there is mentioned the Void/Sky/Heaven as an element:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_elements_%28Japanese_philosophy%29
perhaps Kishi will ad to that element some techs, like Naruto`s wind is the most powerfull in close-combat...fuuton:rasenshuriken...
(the other elements in the manga & anime are: wind,fire,water,earth,lightning)

ornis
October 20, 2007, 12:14 PM
Could be. I know Serg3 thought that void may be related to lightning.... It may be that void is the last element.

//Here's to hoping lightning replaces void in the chakra elements :beer

4ghost
October 20, 2007, 12:19 PM
The special metal of Asuma's Chakra blades that absorb the holder's chakra nature absorbed Shikamaru's chakra nature of shadow which has been attributed to be in the Yin Yang chakra category. That said Iwanin's notes in his glossary are pretty informative for this chapter, particularly the part about the six chakra qualitative transformations.

Anyway my predeiction is that Jiraiya will put up a very impressive fight causing Pein a great deal of trouble. Somehow despite Jiraiya's eventual loss, whether it be to this body of Pain's or to Pain's secret ability or ally, Jiraiya will come away from the battle with a small win. He will escape the battle with his summoning hand cursed with only a year left to.... Really I think Jiraiya will escape, finally showing us readers that touton no jutsu ( "http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/139/12/") jutsu, returning to Konoha to relay what he learned to Tsunade, his last student and his village.

Okia
October 20, 2007, 12:20 PM
possible elements:

space/gravity
darkness
holy/god

Marq
October 20, 2007, 12:40 PM
What a great chapter! Wow, nearly the best one I've seen in this manga. Hopefully Kishi keeps the momentum going and doesn't screw it up. As for predictions. Well it seems J-man is pulling out the big guns. I already have this mental image of him using fire techniques, jumping around like a frog (lol like he doesn't already) aggressively attacking Pain. I guess Pain was shocked, but I bet like most mangas, he's probably going to be like.. I underestimated you, I'll just get a little more serious, and then he will start his counter attack. Seeing as the Naruto route is, bad guy attacks, good guys manages to counter and start beating the crap out of bad guy, bad guy pulls out a jutsu and WTF pwns the good guy. (well for part 2 that is)

I have a feeling Jirayia would die, but part me doesn't. I just wish he would end up managing to get out with a little energy and mange to drag back to Konoha, give the info, and die in the arms, or somewhere his Student could witness ( I know, I know cliche, but that always tends to prove that would change the character drastically.)

jodi
October 20, 2007, 05:13 PM
This is a thought, but i really wouldn't like to be like this, because would be lame and weird... but:

All those summonings and the bodies that Pain has, are all dead.
I mean, look at the summonings's eyes... same as Pain's, right?
and they don't appear to speak with him, so, its like they aren't related by the contract...
So, I guess that Pain can raise people and animals that he kills, so they are only killing machines that he demands what to do.
Example... He foughts Jiraya and kills him and it's summonings, then, with Rinnegan, he makes a doujutsu that infiltrate his chakra into them, raising them from death like zombies, to fight on his will.

If this is true, then I would like Pain to die and disappear from the mangá, as his jutsus and combat style are worst than Orochimaru against Sarutobi...

Mendes
October 20, 2007, 07:24 PM
So far we've seen Jiraya use great combinations with his frogs, specially Gamabunta. In the Sannin battle, the frog hermit asked oil from his summon to increase his fire move's power. I believe this ' hermit mode' will be used mostly to increase an elemental move. For instance, if one of the frogs(if that's what they are...) used oil and the other used wind(wind powers up fire, right?), then Jiraya could use an extremely strong fire move, powered up by the oil and wind. The same could apply to the other elements.

Still, this move could be only used to counter Pein's strategy. If Pein's chamaleon can change shape according to the offensive or defensive situation, then this mode should do the exact same thing. One frog for defense, other for offense and Jiraya as the 'leader'. I find it funny that Jiraya can do everything with his frogs (although some of them have severe confidence issues :P)

shachi
October 20, 2007, 07:26 PM
Predictions:

1. I think the Toad Hermits are going to act like Yoda from Star Wars. Tiny and grumpy and old and at first seemingly vulnerable but towards the end of the chapter they will engage in some off-the-wall badassery.

2. The battle will go back and forth. Pein initially mounts some offense with a new summon. Next the hermits figure out why Pein is using summons exclusively, and change tactics accordingly. Finally, the hermits have Pein back on his heels when he pulls out a jaw-dropping summon of some sort--setting up a two-part finale for Jiraiya.

TheChosenOne
October 20, 2007, 09:09 PM
The sixth element was very interesting. It has join the elemental cycle so it can balance. Just don't know what it is. When jiraiya pulled out his sennin mode it made be think could he have more powerful modes which he can release if need be. Since Jiraiya came to Ameku people have made Jiraiya a weakling in comparison to pain. With this Sennin mode I beleive it balance the scales a bit. Didn't the two sennin say that they are only brought out when He is in dangerous fight. That means Jiraiya has fought powerful people like pain.

I think He just created a new level for the Sannin. And he is the only member.

ghostofhell
October 20, 2007, 10:17 PM
1. Wind
2. Fire
3. Water
4. Earth
5. Lightning

6. Dark evil


7. Light good

TheChosenOne
October 20, 2007, 10:20 PM
Evil is not considered an element. It's a way of behavior or tone. (I think) If evil was an element then something has to be stronger than that and also weaker than evil. (Doesn't it )

Ero Sennin

vegettasaiyan
October 20, 2007, 11:32 PM
my prediction is that both pain & jiraiya will continue to fight and using summon only for several chapters no other characters will be involved and will get to see past history of two fighters more.

in my opinion the reason why pain uses only summon is to unfold weakspot of jiraiya. obviously pain know some already but i think he wants to know more then use all elements to defeat jiraiya easily or maybe pain wanted to see the sennin mode of jiraiya and fight using summoning only without using the 6th element.

speaking of element again in my opinion the 6th part (if its not a typo error) will be immortality or life. remeber kakuzu was also able to use 5 elements simultaneously and was able to live a long time but maybe he (kakuzu) didn't perfected the technique unlike pain.

neer
October 21, 2007, 01:03 AM
hhmm.... jiraiya will die :( :'(

C4animax
October 21, 2007, 02:21 AM
My bet is that at least one of jiraya (or both of them) summon will defeat pain's summon, bringing him out, since the two hermit seems to be on the highest level of summoning for jiraya i can't see any appareation of gamabunta...
If it doesn't happen at the start it will happen in the end after "killing" few of pain's summon but i wonder how many summons kishi still has in mind. The point of killing his "main" summon would be to make pain fight jiraya personnally...

If kishi rushes it i can see pain losing at least one body (in this chapter) but that would be too easy and way too fast so i guess it will be on later chapter.

One thing that could happen as well is that kishi switch to team hebi/naruto, but appart from frustrating people, there would be no point in that ? Very unlikely tough.

Monkeyshank
October 21, 2007, 03:04 AM
Anyone like anagrams after reading all these posts abouts "peins" this or "peins" that, I realized he is going to be a dick forever.

Well anyway I think supermode J-man will tear up this body of peins and we may get our first glimpse of the itachi sauske meeting along with zetsu watching

guesswho
October 21, 2007, 03:24 AM
I think Pain is only using summons to see Jiraiya's moves. That's how he's never been defeated: He uses first only summons and if the enemy is capable of winning against those, he decides to fight on his own but now Pain knows his enemy's moves and the enemy knows nothing

Alexis
October 21, 2007, 03:28 AM
The sixth element was very interesting. It has join the elemental cycle so it can balance.
What do you mean by that?

http://xs220.xs.to/xs220/07420/wddwqwd.JPG

The elemental cycle was already balanced and came full circle, with each element having one weakness and one strength over another.

How would adding a sixth element into that cycle make it balanced?


I think the reason pain is using summons instead of his abilities is prolly cuz he doesn't see Jiraiya as a threat.
If that's the case, then where would the element of surprise be after the mystery built up, and Jiraya's comment here? Because he already said that.

http://xs220.xs.to/xs220/07420/0014898747.jpg
http://xs220.xs.to/xs220/07420/0024587454.jpg
http://xs220.xs.to/xs220/07420/0038944755.jpg

A general rule of thumb in these situations seems to be that if the character said something like Jiraya just did, then it means that we have yet to find out the reason, and as such it's not what the character just questioned. In this example that "Pain doesn't feel the need to fight himself" is most likely not the reason for it.
Something else seems to be going on. I'm hoping it's not something as cheap as preparations for a "body possesion" jutsu, that might need some time before it can be excecuted.

dandy65
October 21, 2007, 03:45 AM
What do you mean by that?

http://xs220.xs.to/xs220/07420/wddwqwd.JPG

The elemental cycle was already balanced and came full circle, with each element having one weakness and one strength over another.

How would adding a sixth element into that cycle make it balanced?

Maybe there's one element in the middle like, "Neutral element" or some element of nothing-ness which is not weak or strong against the other elements, and the other elements not weak or strong against it.

Like pokemon.

Fire 200% over leaf
Leaf 200% over water
Rock 0% over lightning
Thunder 150% over fire

But

Normal 100% over Leaf
Water 100% over normal

Like, No weakness resistance :|

Alexis
October 21, 2007, 03:49 AM
I think it might not be related to the other elements as well, but I see no way a sixth element could make things more "balanced". Placing it anywhere would probably either interupt the sequence, or not affect it at all.

bean
October 21, 2007, 04:13 AM
I think it's going to land in the middle of the circle and trump everything, would seem fitting to the image kishi is giving pein

ichimatsu
October 21, 2007, 05:07 AM
next chapter, jiraya gona defeat the sumuning of pein, pein gona change his body, because his present body can only use sumuning technique, so he gona bring another one maybe, the first one that we sow.

Alexis
October 21, 2007, 05:25 AM
I think it's going to land in the middle of the circle and trump everything, would seem fitting to the image kishi is giving pein
That the new element will have priority against all other elements? Yeah I can see that happening.

dandy65
October 21, 2007, 05:37 AM
Anyone like anagrams after reading all these posts abouts "peins" this or "peins" that, I realized he is going to be a dick forever.

Well anyway I think supermode J-man will tear up this body of peins and we may get our first glimpse of the itachi sauske meeting along with zetsu watching

Haaaaaahahah :D:D
[hr]

I think it's going to land in the middle of the circle and trump everything, would seem fitting to the image kishi is giving pein

I hope not :S If that was so, he would be too "Imba", or imbalanced...lol.

BayangNaga
October 21, 2007, 07:35 AM
I think Pain is only using summons to see Jiraiya's moves. That's how he's never been defeated: He uses first only summons and if the enemy is capable of winning against those, he decides to fight on his own but now Pain knows his enemy's moves and the enemy knows nothing

I don't know if this is true or not but I think, maybe the body that Pain/Pein use this time around is specialized in summoning techniques and thus represents one of the 6 elements, dimensional/darkness/void/summoning element and it gives the user the maximum ability to do summonings, as shown by Pain/Pein himself summoning various types of summons. Thus, the other bodies that Pain/Pein have are all specialized in all other elements, Fire, Water, Lightning, Earth and Wind. And if this prediction is correct, that means the body that Pain/Pein used the first time we saw him is specialized in Water Jutsu hence enabling Pain/Pein to control rain, stopping it at will and detecting chakra using rain/water.

VaizardNL
October 21, 2007, 08:28 AM
I also think that (if there really is a 6th Element it will be in the middle of all the others and maybe even rule over all other Elements (which i think shouldn't be the case). I honoustly hope it just will be something completely different. Maybe that the 6th thing is just summoning.... not really an element but still, you create something from nothingness.

Just something else i want to point out...:

http://www.pinpanic.com/_layers/_pinsmall/konoha.gif
http://izobretenik.hautetfort.com/images/medium_l_naruto.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6457/thingyhr0.th.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thingyhr0.jpg)

As you can see all the things have the same sign in it :P (Naruto is the stuff with ramen (dno much about ramen though), the sign of Konoha and if you can see the 6th type as all ruling you could draw it in that same form ^^) Bit far-fetched maybe but just wanted to share it :P

As for the next chapter: I think it will be some explanation about J-mans new form and that those frogs explain when jiraiya first "used" them. After that i honoustly hope we'll see something about Naruto again, because its just been to long, even though i'm loving J-mans part. Jiraiya should stay alive, but maybe lose an arm or lose his chakra so he'll no longer be able to fight but will still live to help naruto (damn i'm losing it again).

Greets

ichimatsu
October 21, 2007, 08:31 AM
I don't know if this is true or not but I think, maybe the body that Pain/Pein use this time around is specialized in summoning techniques and thus represents one of the 6 elements, dimensional/darkness/void/summoning element and it gives the user the maximum ability to do summonings, as shown by Pain/Pein himself summoning various types of summons. Thus, the other bodies that Pain/Pein have are all specialized in all other elements, Fire, Water, Lightning, Earth and Wind. And if this prediction is correct, that means the body that Pain/Pein used the first time we saw him is specialized in Water Jutsu hence enabling Pain/Pein to control rain, stopping it at will and detecting chakra using rain/water.

yes i think the same why, but his original body master all the element, and jiraya knows that his original body master the 6 element, when jiraya trained pein with his original body he mastered the 6 element , he hadn't shown any body to jiraya when he trained him.

so when jiraya said that nagato master the 6 element he is talking about his original body,so one body master the 6 element, and i think that his original body master the 6th element and the 5 other body master one element.

it's like humain we have the eye the totch, the smel, the tast, talking, and we speek allways about a the 6 th one wish is filling people presense or see spririt or knows the futur

Alexis
October 21, 2007, 09:14 AM
Just something else i want to point out...:
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6457/thingyhr0.th.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thingyhr0.jpg)

As you can see all the things have the same sign in it :P (Naruto is the stuff with ramen (dno much about ramen though), the sign of Konoha and if you can see the 6th type as all ruling you could draw it in that same form ^^) Bit far-fetched maybe but just wanted to share it :P
Haha, I like that swirl part. Nice idea.

Schabrak
October 21, 2007, 09:24 AM
Haha, I like that swirl part. Nice idea.

There's no swirl... Earth is strong against water.

As Kakashi says. 5 types of nature manipulation, but not 5 chakra natures. One still could not manipulated

renrutal
October 21, 2007, 09:49 AM
Hermit mode? Ha! It's more like Kermit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_the_Frog) mode! I predict Jiraiya's awesome skills at puppetry!!

The 6th element? I'd say it's chakra itself, a neutral element, which powers all the other kinds of jutsus. All the ninja population has some of it. Naruto happens to have way more than the elite average.

Pein is the master of all the ninja arts.

DarkManSharingan32
October 21, 2007, 09:54 AM
Ok...
The 6th element.

If it were in fact a conglomeration of all the elements into one super element...
I would think that Wood, Life, Ice... would all be apart of that number.

Also, if it were Dark/Light...
That is basically the concept of Yin-Yang, which i think it prominent through all jutsu.

So, i'll go with Time/Space.
The basis for all summoning jutsu.
---

I could be wrong... but I think it's the best choice with the information laid out so far.

Frey
October 21, 2007, 10:55 AM
Well, There are a lot of theories regarding The 6th element, thinking about which one makes most sense right about now :P


Prediction: Think we will have some pictures of Hermit mode, the probably as switch to Naruto/hebi.

VaizardNL
October 21, 2007, 11:10 AM
There's no swirl... Earth is strong against water.

As Kakashi says. 5 types of nature manipulation, but not 5 chakra natures. One still could not manipulated

Then you just draw the red line a bit further so everything has been linked ;)

matrice
October 21, 2007, 11:29 AM
After some thoughts on this argument I realized that the idea of the sixth element being the yin/yang thing doesn't seem to be fitting this much: in my opinion this is a completely different tyoe of manipulation, like phisical and elementl recomposition. The sixth element is a true mistery: besides the five elements there are indeed the ones that can be created by using two of them together, in someone has the right bloodline limit, but maybe this is a completely different element that can be used only by the possessor of the rinnegan and isn't created from others, but exists as a separete element.

AngryChubbs
October 21, 2007, 12:07 PM
i dont get why everyone thinks that each body is a master of an element. wouldn't this make him extrememly weaker than someone who can combine 2 elements? and also, i dont think it has ever been stated that he can switch bodies in the middle of a fight or anything along those lines. for all we know, he has to travel back to his little hideout to get in a new body and then travel back to where the fight is. it has never been stated that he can do this "body switch" whenever he wants and aside from seeing him switch a body, we dont know exactly why he did it. maybe this body is only for summoning, or maybe this body is just really quick so he could get to the intruder quicker. or maybe he has to switch bodies every hour. who knows.

prediction: jiraya dies and all of konoha cries and have a giant funeral like they did with sarutobi.

Seta Soujirou
October 21, 2007, 12:12 PM
i wonder if jiraiya's body will ever make it back to konoha...besides tsunade i can't foresee anyone else coming for him...

Imperium
October 21, 2007, 12:17 PM
ooo, okay this week kishimoto has truly surpassed himself, i have no clue whats going to happen next, so basically i have no prediction :sweat


i wonder if jiraiya's body will ever make it back to konoha...besides tsunade i can't foresee anyone else coming for him...

Your speaking as if jiraiya is already done for :scry

ornis
October 21, 2007, 01:14 PM
So, does anyone have an argument/case for why the 6th element might not be the Mind... Why wouldn't it relate to nature?

GantzerVSNightmare
October 21, 2007, 01:21 PM
i Think :

Jiraya is on his way to konoha now to report his latest updates

He left his Kage Bunshin to handle the Matter with pain ..

the Hermit Mode is Jiraya's Ultimate Fighting Technic , he said that he won't take it easy , so the two Hermits should be (1) his Sensei (the Female) - (2) his Protector (the Male) ...

Jiraya will bring some though Anbus or Jounin to Assiste him ...

Yay , i'm dying to see what they look like !!

TheChosenOne
October 21, 2007, 01:47 PM
The 6th element being in the middle and stronger than all the other would make sense. That would show one of the reasons pain can't be beaten. We already know that Pain gonna be beaten down the road, (I think it will be by Naruto). Wouldn't that suck since Naruto all he has is the Kyuubi and some jutsu, but Pain having Rinnegan and 6 elemental chakra and whole lot of summons. With all this extreme level of power, does is still mean nothin against the Kyuubi?

AngryChubbs
October 21, 2007, 01:47 PM
everyone thinks the jiraya fighting is a bunshin...but what if the guy he let leave was actually the bunshin and his whole goal is just to survive to get all the info back to konoha because the bunshin will be alive till he dies so maybe his whole goal is just to get al the info back to konoha...who knows, wild idea but it just popped into my head.

GantzerVSNightmare
October 21, 2007, 01:58 PM
yeah , nice pop up !! hahahahahahahahaha....
Hmm........

Thechosenone : this is a shonen manga , so if naruto beats the shit outta pain , it makes sence !! Lol , but it makes me Sad ...

AngryChubbs : Nice Popup lol , but if he did send his kage bunshin , and he stayed to fight , that makes him in Naruto's level (which means , a dumb ass , Stupid...) .

So , the conclusion is : Jiraya is in his way home ! Yatta !!

TheChosenOne
October 21, 2007, 02:29 PM
So, does anyone have an argument/case for why the 6th element might not be the Mind... Why wouldn't it relate to nature?

It has to relate to nature, otherwise what's the point in showing us the cycle of the elements. I keep chaniging my mind about this, but I beleive the 6th element could be form of all the other 5. I think it will be something which can manupulate the other elements.

ornis
October 21, 2007, 02:38 PM
I was asking why wouldn't the mind relate to nature, if anyone thinks it doesn't.

TheChosenOne
October 21, 2007, 02:43 PM
I was asking why wouldn't the mind relate to nature, if anyone thinks it doesn't.

Sorry, not sure bout that one. Maybe cuz they are two different entiites. Nature is something uncontrollable and mind is somethin that is. (I guess)

Igglemaru
October 21, 2007, 02:54 PM
well narutos going to have a big power up to beat pain, the j-man is one of the strongest people in naruto, whereas naruto is only about kakashis level, good for his age.

i assume naruto will go all goku on us and turn super saiyain from j-mans death.


back to predictions.

both go all out, maybe jman has upper hand till last few pages, maybe we get some konoha/hebi action.

i also agree with the bunshin thing, jiriaiyi has always been an information gatherer.

ornis
October 21, 2007, 02:56 PM
Sorry, not sure bout that one. Maybe cuz they are two different entiites. Nature is something uncontrollable and mind is somethin that is. (I guess)

Now, think of how there can be no mind (grasp of "natural" things) without nature....

What's your response?

Marq
October 21, 2007, 03:08 PM
well narutos going to have a big power up to beat pain, the j-man is one of the strongest people in naruto, whereas naruto is only about kakashis level, good for his age.

i assume naruto will go all goku on us and turn super saiyain from j-mans death.


back to predictions.

both go all out, maybe jman has upper hand till last few pages, maybe we get some konoha/hebi action.

i also agree with the bunshin thing, jiriaiyi has always been an information gatherer.

You mean 9-tailed? :p

Igglemaru
October 21, 2007, 03:19 PM
yeah you know what i mean explode with anger and open the kyubbi thing, remember when nine tails asked him to remove the seal and unleash all his power.

TheChosenOne
October 21, 2007, 04:09 PM
Now, think of how there can be no mind (grasp of "natural" things) without nature....

What's your response?

That's why I said that mind has to relate to nature in my response earlier.

piscesking
October 21, 2007, 04:15 PM
wats with this sixth element thing where did it came from i didnt see it on the chapter................

Hockeychaoz
October 21, 2007, 04:56 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/11/

There ya go Piscesking.

ornis
October 21, 2007, 05:30 PM
That's why I said that mind has to relate to nature in my response earlier.

Oh crap, I grabbed the wrong idea! lol

Uh... thanks for telling me that -_-;

Does anyone else have an argument against the 6th element = mind?

DarkManSharingan32
October 21, 2007, 05:55 PM
Oh crap, I grabbed the wrong idea! lol

Uh... thanks for telling me that -_-;

Does anyone else have an argument against the 6th element = mind?

I do, only because Mind seems to correlate more with Genjutsu than with Ninjutsu.

ThatOtherOtherGuy
October 21, 2007, 06:58 PM
I'd like to throw my two cents into this 6th element conversation.

Firstly, since the five elements we know of arise from nature, let's try to examine how they fit into an ordinary organism.

Earth (body) would be the organism's shell, it's body and it's various organs. Lightning (energy) would be what powers the body. Wind (the breath) would be what takes in raw energy. Fire (metabolism and related organs) would be what refines the energy. Finally, water (blood) would be what transfers energy. I'll admit the analogy between wind as breath that takes in energy might appear a little bit sketchy, but it fits particularly well with many ancient eastern cultures beliefs about breath and its role in the body.

Examine how the relations between the elements mimic between their processes in the body. Wind(breath that takes in energy) powers Fire (which takes the energy and refines it). More Lighting (energy) provides more for Wind (breath) to absorb.

Now, these five elements create and maintain a functioning organism, minus one thing. That thing is something to direct it, or its mind. The other five elements make a body and keep it functioning on a basic level. The mind, on the other hand, gives the body life, it gives the body purpose. It is a basic element, since it's function is vital to the survival of a functioning organism, but since it is what coordinates the other processes (elements), it is in a position of power over them. Similarly, all the elements have evolved with organisms. The five other elements grew in power and efficiency, making multi-celled organisms with varying systems with varying purposes. Mind, however, did that as well as grow in it's own way. Mind has granted sentience to a few special species, sentience that allows for purposes other than just basic eating and reproducing.

Seeing how special mind is, it makes sense for the average ninja to be unable to use it. Using the first five elements requires only the use of the chakra created by body and the ability to mold it, something all creatures have. Since mind controls all other elements, one would have to completely master all of the others first before one could even consider taking on the mind element, a challenge which would probably require the use of all other elements at the same time.

This fits in with what we know of the Rinnegan. We know that Pain, and he alone, can apparently use this sixth element that most people have never even heard of, and the Rinnegan gives her perfect chakra control. With that control, Pain could combine all the other elements and give rise to mind.

Now, the only point that remains is how mind would function as ninjutsu element. The most basic application would probably be complete mind domination. Now before someone brings up Ino's trademark jutsu, let me assure you that is completey different. Ino's jutsu simply uses her psyche to overpower her target and take control of its body. However, the mind element would simply make the target completely obey the user, possibly even destroying the target's mind completely, and as an add bonus the user could probably send his commands mentally. No transfer of the minds, but the user could also take over it's body if he wished, but without that nasty link between the two bodies that makes one affect the other. This would explain how Pain switches bodies and controls the summoned beasts. Beyond that the mind element could concieveably bend reality to the user's will. However, there would be a tremedous cost. Think about when Naruto infused the Rasengan with the Wind element. Its power increased exponetially, but it caused a lot of damage to himself as well. Now imagine if Naruto could stuff five elements into the Rasengan. He'd probably kill himself if he used such a technique. Not to mention that using all five elements at once is probably even a major challenge for Pain.

This, I feel, explains a lot. Why Pain has all those bodies (in case he has to use the mind element offensively and destroys the one he's using), why he has all those summoned beasts, why he isn't going all out yet (terrible strain on the body), why he claims that he is a god (using the powerful mind element, even if his body is destroyed he could concieveably take over someone else's even after he died).

I could see a flashback sequence wherein Pain uses the mind element the first time, destroys himself, and takes over Nagato's body (I think that's his name. He's the friend of Pain that died), or some variation of the above that leads to a lot of trauma caused by the event and the knowledge gained by using the mind element.

Yeah, I could have probably wrote the above better, but I hope I made my points clear enough.

Minato's Disciple
October 21, 2007, 08:08 PM
I'd like to throw my two cents into this 6th element conversation.

Firstly, since the five elements we know of arise from nature, let's try to examine how they fit into an ordinary organism.

Earth (body) would be the organism's shell, it's body and it's various organs. Lightning (energy) would be what powers the body. Wind (the breath) would be what takes in raw energy. Fire (metabolism and related organs) would be what refines the energy. Finally, water (blood) would be what transfers energy. I'll admit the analogy between wind as breath that takes in energy might appear a little bit sketchy, but it fits particularly well with many ancient eastern cultures beliefs about breath and its role in the body.

Examine how the relations between the elements mimic between their processes in the body. Wind(breath that takes in energy) powers Fire (which takes the energy and refines it). More Lighting (energy) provides more for Wind (breath) to absorb.

Now, these five elements create and maintain a functioning organism, minus one thing. That thing is something to direct it, or its mind. The other five elements make a body and keep it functioning on a basic level. The mind, on the other hand, gives the body life, it gives the body purpose. It is a basic element, since it's function is vital to the survival of a functioning organism, but since it is what coordinates the other processes (elements), it is in a position of power over them. Similarly, all the elements have evolved with organisms. The five other elements grew in power and efficiency, making multi-celled organisms with varying systems with varying purposes. Mind, however, did that as well as grow in it's own way. Mind has granted sentience to a few special species, sentience that allows for purposes other than just basic eating and reproducing.

Seeing how special mind is, it makes sense for the average ninja to be unable to use it. Using the first five elements requires only the use of the chakra created by body and the ability to mold it, something all creatures have. Since mind controls all other elements, one would have to completely master all of the others first before one could even consider taking on the mind element, a challenge which would probably require the use of all other elements at the same time.

This fits in with what we know of the Rinnegan. We know that Pain, and he alone, can apparently use this sixth element that most people have never even heard of, and the Rinnegan gives her perfect chakra control. With that control, Pain could combine all the other elements and give rise to mind.

Now, the only point that remains is how mind would function as ninjutsu element. The most basic application would probably be complete mind domination. Now before someone brings up Ino's trademark jutsu, let me assure you that is completey different. Ino's jutsu simply uses her psyche to overpower her target and take control of its body. However, the mind element would simply make the target completely obey the user, possibly even destroying the target's mind completely, and as an add bonus the user could probably send his commands mentally. No transfer of the minds, but the user could also take over it's body if he wished, but without that nasty link between the two bodies that makes one affect the other. This would explain how Pain switches bodies and controls the summoned beasts. Beyond that the mind element could concieveably bend reality to the user's will. However, there would be a tremedous cost. Think about when Naruto infused the Rasengan with the Wind element. Its power increased exponetially, but it caused a lot of damage to himself as well. Now imagine if Naruto could stuff five elements into the Rasengan. He'd probably kill himself if he used such a technique. Not to mention that using all five elements at once is probably even a major challenge for Pain.

This, I feel, explains a lot. Why Pain has all those bodies (in case he has to use the mind element offensively and destroys the one he's using), why he has all those summoned beasts, why he isn't going all out yet (terrible strain on the body), why he claims that he is a god (using the powerful mind element, even if his body is destroyed he could concieveably take over someone else's even after he died).

I could see a flashback sequence wherein Pain uses the mind element the first time, destroys himself, and takes over Nagato's body (I think that's his name. He's the friend of Pain that died), or some variation of the above that leads to a lot of trauma caused by the event and the knowledge gained by using the mind element.

Yeah, I could have probably wrote the above better, but I hope I made my points clear enough.
hah! that's why he call himself a god because apart from using all 5 nature manipulation that the shinobi has known, he is able to use the 6th. I strongly believe it has something to do with summoning and shapeshifting technique

jodi
October 21, 2007, 09:54 PM
I'd like to throw my two cents into this 6th element conversation.

Firstly, since the five elements we know of arise from nature, let's try to examine how they fit into an ordinary organism.

Earth (body) would be the organism's shell, it's body and it's various organs. Lightning (energy) would be what powers the body. Wind (the breath) would be what takes in raw energy. Fire (metabolism and related organs) would be what refines the energy. Finally, water (blood) would be what transfers energy. I'll admit the analogy between wind as breath that takes in energy might appear a little bit sketchy, but it fits particularly well with many ancient eastern cultures beliefs about breath and its role in the body.

Examine how the relations between the elements mimic between their processes in the body. Wind(breath that takes in energy) powers Fire (which takes the energy and refines it). More Lighting (energy) provides more for Wind (breath) to absorb.

Now, these five elements create and maintain a functioning organism, minus one thing. That thing is something to direct it, or its mind. The other five elements make a body and keep it functioning on a basic level. The mind, on the other hand, gives the body life, it gives the body purpose. It is a basic element, since it's function is vital to the survival of a functioning organism, but since it is what coordinates the other processes (elements), it is in a position of power over them. Similarly, all the elements have evolved with organisms. The five other elements grew in power and efficiency, making multi-celled organisms with varying systems with varying purposes. Mind, however, did that as well as grow in it's own way. Mind has granted sentience to a few special species, sentience that allows for purposes other than just basic eating and reproducing.

Seeing how special mind is, it makes sense for the average ninja to be unable to use it. Using the first five elements requires only the use of the chakra created by body and the ability to mold it, something all creatures have. Since mind controls all other elements, one would have to completely master all of the others first before one could even consider taking on the mind element, a challenge which would probably require the use of all other elements at the same time.

This fits in with what we know of the Rinnegan. We know that Pain, and he alone, can apparently use this sixth element that most people have never even heard of, and the Rinnegan gives her perfect chakra control. With that control, Pain could combine all the other elements and give rise to mind.

Now, the only point that remains is how mind would function as ninjutsu element. The most basic application would probably be complete mind domination. Now before someone brings up Ino's trademark jutsu, let me assure you that is completey different. Ino's jutsu simply uses her psyche to overpower her target and take control of its body. However, the mind element would simply make the target completely obey the user, possibly even destroying the target's mind completely, and as an add bonus the user could probably send his commands mentally. No transfer of the minds, but the user could also take over it's body if he wished, but without that nasty link between the two bodies that makes one affect the other. This would explain how Pain switches bodies and controls the summoned beasts. Beyond that the mind element could concieveably bend reality to the user's will. However, there would be a tremedous cost. Think about when Naruto infused the Rasengan with the Wind element. Its power increased exponetially, but it caused a lot of damage to himself as well. Now imagine if Naruto could stuff five elements into the Rasengan. He'd probably kill himself if he used such a technique. Not to mention that using all five elements at once is probably even a major challenge for Pain.

This, I feel, explains a lot. Why Pain has all those bodies (in case he has to use the mind element offensively and destroys the one he's using), why he has all those summoned beasts, why he isn't going all out yet (terrible strain on the body), why he claims that he is a god (using the powerful mind element, even if his body is destroyed he could concieveably take over someone else's even after he died).

I could see a flashback sequence wherein Pain uses the mind element the first time, destroys himself, and takes over Nagato's body (I think that's his name. He's the friend of Pain that died), or some variation of the above that leads to a lot of trauma caused by the event and the knowledge gained by using the mind element.

Yeah, I could have probably wrote the above better, but I hope I made my points clear enough.

that is a good theory, thus, it explain us the question in how he can get those bodies to him
I guess he uses his mind, like Orochimaru, but as he is way master than Oro in this, for him is easy to do that
easy in a certain way...

AngryChubbs
October 21, 2007, 10:30 PM
or instead of it being an element like mind....which really isn't an element as much as it is an idea. the elements that have been given to us right now are wind, water, earth, fire, and lighting. ice, wood, etc are combination of the basic 5. now aside from everyone just wanting it to be something like mind...which CONTROLS the elements, that technically isn't an actual element. i personally hope that the 6th element really is something like light or something because that actually could be an element. and no, darkness cant be one because darkness is only the absense of light. so light is the 6th element my guess

along with that, light generally refers to heaven.
in heaven there is a god.
pain thinks he is a god.
pain has an element that is extremely rare
thus pain believes he is a god
thus the 6th element is light

Alexis
October 21, 2007, 10:41 PM
Well of course it could be darkness, since it's appeared as an element in many other games/anime, but if there's just one of the two then I'd guess light. On the other hand light is one of those elements that's commonly refered to as an opposite spectrum of another. If the sixth element is unique (since there's no seventh element to correspond with it) it might be something other than light. Something that doesn't have an opposite aspect of it, because then it might feel like something is missing.

Light would be fitting though, because it could be used to mold chakra into jutsus. And it's possible these superior jutsus are what helped Pain destroy Hanzo's army so easily.

About Mind I'm not too sure of. Without analyzing it you'd think that this is something everyone posseses to be able to do most things. But if not, then just the fact that Pain has control of it would seemingly support his claim on how he is enlightened on the level of a God. I'm sure they could come up with a fitting explanation for Mind though. But whatever it is I think it's going to share a trait with the other elements that it's going to be something physical you can see and touch. Then again, if it's not something like that then that may explain why no one else has this element.

Shadowthrone
October 21, 2007, 11:16 PM
LOL how is naruto gonna surpass jiraya, summon a dragon ?

ThatOtherOtherGuy
October 21, 2007, 11:44 PM
I'll start this off with a quote to explain another concept of my theory.

About Mind I'm not too sure of. Without analyzing it you'd think that this is something everyone posseses to be able to do most things.

Well, consider that all elements have a place in a ninja's body, as according to my previous post. Now for the first five elements and their representing processes, any good ninja can more or less control them through their own volition and perhaps chakra control. Alternating your metabolism or breatheing isn't too hard, and many people in real life can do those things. These processes are subject to you. However, you are subject to your mind. You are controlled by your emotions, your wants, your needs, etc. Everyone may have mind, but it is the exceedingly rare individual that can control it.

And remember, the last element may not be mind, but it would have a similar function in the body according to my theory, at least.

Okia
October 22, 2007, 12:01 AM
LOL how is naruto gonna surpass jiraya, summon a dragon ?


simple> with sexy no jutsu.

casavwat
October 22, 2007, 12:30 AM
This is a far fetched idea, but i think the 6th element would be life or soul. The 5 basic elements naturally exists in nature, and so is life. But controlling life is much difficult than controlling other naturally occuring elements. Think about it. We ain't no shinobi but we can pretty much control water, air, fire, and earth. Thunder would be a form of electricity, so we can also control that. Maybe that's why Pein calls heimself God, since he can control his soul, shifting bodies at will and summoning beasts (Life Forms) of all kinds. He may have also used this unique element on his Doppleganger Jitsu.

My prediction in 376 is that we will see when the last time J-man used Hermit mode, how was he able to gain/use it, and pein switching to a different attack style.

BayangNaga
October 22, 2007, 12:59 AM
Ok...
The 6th element.

So, i'll go with Time/Space.
The basis for all summoning jutsu.
---
I could be wrong... but I think it's the best choice with the information laid out so far.

I totally agree with DarkManSharingan32. I believe the Time/Space element is what gives the body that Pain currently use the ability to do variety of summoning. Meaning that the current body specialized in Time/Space jutsus which logically involve manipulating Time & Space hence the summoning ability.

Another logic behind it is that all of us are familiar with all the other 5 elements. What better way to explain the 6th element than to show it in this battle and later explain that this body that Pain use is in fact represent the 6th element which I think is Time/Space. All the other bodies which specialized in all other elements is not necessary for this battle because all other elements need not to be explained.

And the thing is, those who can control Time & Space is really like having the power of God because all other things exist because of Time & Space. Remember the Big Bang Theory? Big Bang created Time & Space for everything to exist and thus being able to control Time & Space is the ultimate power and it relates with the supposed power of the Rin'negan which is a "Tool of God to bring Salvation when the world was in chaos" or "The weapon that would destroy all creation and return everything to dust".

Additionally, Time & Space also relates to the circle of the 5 elements in which Time & Space befits the centre of the circle because there is a space in the middle. Also, Time & Space befits the theory that the 6th element is and element connecting/combining all other elements because in truth, what ever jutsu being used, you really need Time and Space to do it. So, Time and Space really fit as the element that ties all other elements.

Another strong arguement for this element is that Pain said he "took out this body to kill the intruder". Meaning that he wants to kill the intruder no matter what. Remember, in the circle of the 5 elements, every other elements has a weakness to another element. This mean that if for example Pain were to use a body which is specialized in Earth Jutsu, he'll be defeted if the intruder is someone specialized in lightning jutsus. So, by using "The Body That Will Never Lose", that is the body specialized in Time & Space jutsu that has no weakness, he'll definitely be able to kill the intruder no matter what.

TheOtherOtherGuy mentioned about the need of an element that represent the "Mind" saying that Earth (body), Lightning (energy), Wind (breath), Water (blood) and Fire (Metabolism) need "Mind" to control and combine the elements together. I believe Time & Space really fit into this since body, breath, metabolism, blood and energy need a certain complete cycle for it to be able to complete a jutsu. Only the timing of such cycle and the area/space in which it is perfomed ensure the success of a jutsu.

Lots of people also mention about the 6th element being "Life". Just think of this, how do we measure our live or age? The thing that enable us to say "I'm 26 years old" is because we measure our age based on how long do we live in this world. Hence, life is really dependent on time and we live in this world because this is the "space" in which we can live. Thus, Time & Space is the thing that gave birth to Life itself. Those who control Time & space control life. And I really believe, there is more to this ability than just summoning. If Pain can really control time & space, he can bring back the dead, cut through dimensions and teleport himself, slows down attacks, predict jutsus before it is released etc.

If Pain has the elemental ability of time & space, this can also explain how he can kill Hanzo, who is being highly coutious and almost impossible to approach. The only thing Pain need to know is Hanzo's hidout/whereabout and he can cut through the dimensions and teleport there to kill Hanzo.

Thus my prediction that the 6th element is infact Time and Space because :

1. Give maximum summoning ability
2. Still need to be explained
3. It relates with the Rin'negan power
4. It's the Power of God that Pain declare himself
5. It fit into the circle of the 5 elements
6. It's the element that ties all other elements
7. Pain need to kill the intruder and use the body with no weakness to other elements
8. Time & space is the "Mind" among other elements.
9. Time & space give birth to "Life" itself.

ornis
October 22, 2007, 01:47 AM
I'll start this off with a quote to explain another concept of my theory.

About Mind I'm not too sure of. Without analyzing it you'd think that this is something everyone posseses to be able to do most things.

Well, consider that all elements have a place in a ninja's body, as according to my previous post. Now for the first five elements and their representing processes, any good ninja can more or less control them through their own volition and perhaps chakra control. Alternating your metabolism or breatheing isn't too hard, and many people in real life can do those things. These processes are subject to you. However, you are subject to your mind. You are controlled by your emotions, your wants, your needs, etc. Everyone may have mind, but it is the exceedingly rare individual that can control it.

And remember, the last element may not be mind, but it would have a similar function in the body according to my theory, at least.

I really am inclined to agree... it may not be that plausible to but so many people. Regardless, I think it makes sense. Here's a couple of my stabs at it, in case you missed them.



Does anyone think that Yin/Yang is at the foundation of every element? Which is why Shikamaru's jutsu is labeled hidden... Kage Mane no Jutsu is an art that could be archaic to ninja who are ignorant of its benefit by circumstance or choice... consequently, Kage Mane may be such an advantage that the Nara Clan's implementation of the jutsu may not be highly guarded... but it wouldn't hurt for it to be >.>

//Came to this idea because of Chapter 375, so it relates^^



//Even in life, new things "become" commonplace enough to obscure their origin...

Anyone recall the Newspeak in Nineteen Eighty-Four that replaced the Oldspeak. It refers to the use of shortened verses of vocabulary that also involve euphemisms (that hint to a potential meaning, but fall short of completely encompassing it)

Maybe the creation of elemental ninjutsu has, on one hand, the ability to cover (veil) the potential of Yin/Yang based jutsu.... as elemental composition doesn't replace the fundamentals (theoretically, Yin/Yang), but people forget how dependent they are on one or more affinities, because they so direly desire to master them or may have to use them. They may have to do the latter part due to a natural inclination---Kekkei Genkai.

This reserves a privilege to Pain, the very person who (again in theory) may be able to manipulate all elements at their base (via Yin/Yang). Consider this: even though Ino/Shika/Cho involves Yin/Yang and Mind (hmmm), Ino depends on Cho, depends on Shika, depends on Ino. In the worst case scenario, every part of Ino/Shika/Cho is needed in order for the scenario to be overcome. That example shows how isolated Pain case may be when we observe Shika's gift.

Kage Mane no Jutsu benefits from a social circumstance. Exemplarily, Kage Mane no Jutsu can be used alone but it benefits from the aid and cooperation of Baika no Jutsu
(for added assurance). The privilege Pain may have is the ability to transform chakra and impact the world in almost any way imaginable... without any specialization in one elemental area. Remember that Pain mastered the basics of each element at the age of ten. So, compared to Sasuke, he may not be great at the spatial recomposition of Raiton jutsu. However, because he knows how it is created, he could deconstruct it (FMA anyone). And after that... he may be able to reconstruct it.

Funny enough, what you could gain from the Gate in FMA is an allusion to the ultimate idea (truth)---the knowledge of everything... which is why Edward Elric can transmute without a Transmutation Circle... and it may be why Pain can summon without blood and therefore perform jutsu without sealing... because his summons do that for him.


But the thought there only branches from the one here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=579164&postcount=50), while in agreement with another post. (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=579069&postcount=11)
[hr]
About time and space: they are products of perceived states in our environment that can be rated in reference to motion (hence, physics). We may comprehend time and space, but it takes a certain order to manipulate those dimensions. Does the framework of the universe depend on us though?

Vincent Weiss
October 22, 2007, 04:53 AM
And what's with that Mokuton-techniques?
that wood release?
it was said, only the first hokage could use it (and Yamato with the DNA of the first)...
or was it only a special combination of water and earth?
6 jutsu elements: water(suiton), fire(katon), wind(futon), earth(doton), lightning(raiton), wood/life(mokuton)...

yeah, all six... or not? who knows...

The Noobslayer
October 22, 2007, 04:55 AM
And what's with that Mokuton-techniques?
that wood release?
it was said, only the first hokage could use it (and Yamato with the DNA of the first)...
or was it only a special combination of water and earth?
6 jutsu elements: water(suiton), fire(katon), wind(futon), earth(doton), lightning(raiton), wood/life(mokuton)...

yeah, all six... or not? who knows...


meh i think the 6th element will be Soul, given the Rinnegan's purpose/backstory/capabilities.

GantzerVSNightmare
October 22, 2007, 06:01 AM
i think , Would isn't an element , neither the Metal ..... So the 6th elemant would be the Combination of all the Elemants !!

zidane
October 22, 2007, 06:47 AM
yeah, you´re right..."would" is really no element :D

and yeah, it´s just a combination of water and earth...it´s somewhat of a kekkei genkai...like Haku with water and lightning....

it MUST be darkness...since there are 5 elemnt...5 aren´t usual...the antik imagniation of
the earth consisting of 4 elemnt...water fire earth and air(wind)...

but 5? and since there IS lightning, there also got to be darkness...as an äquivalent...

Ichigo
October 22, 2007, 07:06 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_elements_in_popular_culture

don't know if they brought this up b4, there is a tiny naruto excerpt in there too.
[hr]

simple> with sexy no jutsu.

I wonder if that will work on Pain..

shachi
October 22, 2007, 07:32 AM
I don't know if this is true or not but I think, maybe the body that Pain/Pein use this time around is specialized in summoning techniques and thus represents one of the 6 elements, dimensional/darkness/void/summoning element and it gives the user the maximum ability to do summonings, as shown by Pain/Pein himself summoning various types of summons. Thus, the other bodies that Pain/Pein have are all specialized in all other elements, Fire, Water, Lightning, Earth and Wind. And if this prediction is correct, that means the body that Pain/Pein used the first time we saw him is specialized in Water Jutsu hence enabling Pain/Pein to control rain, stopping it at will and detecting chakra using rain/water.

Or, you could also argue that each body corresponds to jutsu.

Body #1 - Kinjutsu
Body #2 - Summons
Bodies #3-6 - Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Sealing jutsu

piscesking
October 22, 2007, 07:40 AM
yes I agree with you shachi each of his body can do 1 specific jutsu.............and thats wat Jiraiya will find out ..........

Igglemaru
October 22, 2007, 07:54 AM
didn't pein have 6 bodies in that room?

1 for each element, i guess the 6th could be mind/life/light/darkness/soul

maybe not a element at all

and i think he had 7 bodies in total (this is just from memory) maybe the yahiko lookalike being one he keeps to remind himself not to let what ever happened to yahiko to ever happen again supplementing his god-complex?

j-m4n ownzor maybe ??????

Alexis
October 22, 2007, 08:51 AM
Having one body for one element, or one just for summons, one just for taijutsu, etc...

They are all theories that could worl. But doesn't that seem rather restrictive?
Being more versitile seems to be more useful than just focusing on one thing.

ichimatsu
October 22, 2007, 09:06 AM
Or, you could also argue that each body corresponds to jutsu.

Body #1 - Kinjutsu
Body #2 - Summons
Bodies #3-6 - Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Sealing jutsu

HEEEE
YOUUUUUu
don't you inderstand when jiraya said that pein master the 6 element he was talking about his original body nagato body, jiraya never sow the other bodys before, so there is no link between 6 elements nd the different body. the only link is the number 6

sashpimp
October 22, 2007, 09:11 AM
HEEEE
YOUUUUUu
don't you inderstand when jiraya said that pein master the 6 element he was talking about his original body nagato body, jiraya never sow the other bodys before, so there is no link between 6 elements nd the different body. the only link is the number 6

i agree, each body can only do one thing. that explain why hes only using summons??

Alexis
October 22, 2007, 09:14 AM
i agree, each body can only do one thing. that explain why hes only using summons??
Can someone explain to me what's good about a body that can only do one thing?
Especially compared to Nagato who learned everything.

Fortisdiablos
October 22, 2007, 09:38 AM
Can someone explain to me what's good about a body that can only do one thing?
Especially compared to Nagato who learned everything.

I think it might not be that he can't do everything, but rather, that this particular body has an overly exceptional talent/ability as far as summoning goes. Maybe this body has a large surplus of contracts and a gigantic pool of chakura.

GantzerVSNightmare
October 22, 2007, 09:42 AM
Or May be , every single Body Masters a unique element ! and the 6th Cody can be used as a back-up ,

sabuk-demon
October 22, 2007, 09:44 AM
Can someone explain to me what's good about a body that can only do one thing?
Especially compared to Nagato who learned everything.

maybe the body that he is useing can only use summoning
jutsu's.but i guess that he is still nagato,he can summon any
thing that he creates.a bull,a pack of dogs,crabs,a bird,some
crazy reptile,and still maybe more to come.so j-man do use
alot of summonings,so that the body pein use can match
j-man summons.so maybe it can be kinda usefull.

DELAHK
October 22, 2007, 09:49 AM
Wait a sec.

In case that each body could only use one nature manipulation... this body should be controlling the 6th nature which could be... void. Where all these summons come from? They come from a dark and unknown void.

This would make sense, and make more reliable the one body-one nature theory.

Soooo, each body could know all the existing ninjutsu techniques involving their own nature.

Anyone?

sabuk-demon
October 22, 2007, 10:02 AM
Wait a sec.

In case that each body could only use one nature manipulation... this body should be controlling the 6th nature which could be... void. Where all these summons come from? They come from a dark and unknown void.

This would make sense, and make more reliable the one body-one nature theory.

Soooo, each body could know all the existing ninjutsu techniques involving their own nature.

Anyone?

nice that sounds good.in + maybe he has never
lost a match was because he knew people weakness
and reli on a pacific body that he can match up to their
abillities.maybe.anyone?

DELAHK
October 22, 2007, 10:07 AM
nice that sounds good.in + maybe he has never
lost a match was because he knew people weakness
and reli on a pacific body that he can match up to their
abillities.maybe.anyone?

Agreed, makes sense.

I mean, one body can be killed but if you perform a perpetual Kage Bunshin with your soul, and spread it into several bodies you will always have a chance of winning, you only need to fight once and in case of dying, the rest of the bodies will make it up to you cause all of them will automatically know the enemy´s weakness.

That´s why he never lost a battle, he pierces through any Ninja speciality using its opposite.

Fortisdiablos
October 22, 2007, 10:08 AM
Wait a sec.

In case that each body could only use one nature manipulation... this body should be controlling the 6th nature which could be... void. Where all these summons come from? They come from a dark and unknown void.

This would make sense, and make more reliable the one body-one nature theory.

Soooo, each body could know all the existing ninjutsu techniques involving their own nature.

Anyone?

That seems unreliable to me. Say Pain is already in one of his bodies; lets say the earth one. What if he encountered a high caliber lightning element user? It seems unrealistic to think that he would be able to leave, change bodies, then come back.

There has to be more to it than that. He chose the body he's in now before he even knew it was Jiraiya that was the intruder so there must be some kind of guarantee that this body wouldn't be thwarted. If it's a summoning body, then there's no obvious advantage like there is in a elemental battle. That's why I think each body has a specialty, but not an elemental one.

DELAHK
October 22, 2007, 10:18 AM
That seems unreliable to me. Say, pain is already in one of his bodies, lets say, the earth one. What if he encountered a high caliber lightning element user? It seems unrealistic to think that he would be able to leave, change bodies, then come back.

There has to be more to it than that. He chose the body he's in now before he even knew it was Jiraiya that was the intruder so there must be some kind of guarantee that this body wouldn't be thwarted. If it's a summoning body, then there's no obvious advantage like there is in a elemental battle. That's why I think each body has a specialty, but not an elemental one.

Good point, but there are a lot of specialities inside every nature.

He didn´t ran away to change his actual body as soon as he saw Jiraiya because none of the existent natures is specially effective against him. So, what is he just doing? Can we expect a Katon technique from the actual body of Pein?

Jiraiya told this by himself, he can perform any of the existent techniques why is he only summoning creatures?

You may think he is only doing that because is the best thing he can do with this body. I say that he is only performing summons because he cannot do anything else, that body hasn´t any more element affinities.

nutuna
October 22, 2007, 10:26 AM
i'm with Delahk. i think this body it's good for nothing except summoning.


now that we'll see pervert sanning powers, everyody is saying he's the best of the three. That makes me anger!! Orochimaru was IN BED when sasuke "killed" him.i mean he was unable even to walk! how can u say from there he was weaker than Jiraiya . And from the actual hokage(don't remember her name now) she couldn't even see blood. we don't know her power either.

Stop saying Jiraiya is the best of the sannin. If you think he is powerful, think that the other two are/were as mighty as him. : D

Littlewig
October 22, 2007, 10:48 AM
Wouldn't chakra be the 6th element? It's a natural element everyone has and needs in order to use the other natural elements.

Chakra rules them all.

Also, I think Pain lost all his chakra and that is why he needs to switch bodies and can only use summoning techniques.

These are special techniques that do not require chakra but stem from his rissengan abilites.

Summoning/seal techniques and body transplant. Pain is able to do these techniques even without chakra.

casavwat
October 22, 2007, 10:57 AM
Is there anything in Buddhism that covers 6 elements? I mean the sage of six paths and most of Naruto has some connection to Buddhism, so maybe there's something in Buddhist scriptures that can clarify this enigma.

bank3r
October 22, 2007, 10:58 AM
I dont know, the manga said that Pein beaten Amegakure(Hanzo) by himself!!!!

While Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunande coudn't beat them together!

Deophite18
October 22, 2007, 11:04 AM
Good point, but there are a lot of specialities inside every nature.

He didn´t ran away to change his actual body as soon as he saw Jiraiya because none of the existent natures is specially effective against him. So, what is he just doing? Can we expect a Katon technique from the actual body of Pein?

Jiraiya told this by himself, he can perform any of the existent techniques why is he only summoning creatures?

You may think he is only doing that because is the best thing he can do with this body. I say that he is only performing summons because he cannot do anything else, that body hasn´t any more element affinities.

Uh, didn't jiraiya say he thinks Pein is only using summons because that is all he thinks he needs to win. He is just being cocky. i don't think it has anything to do with the body and i think after Jiraiya starts taking control of the battle with hermit mode, pein will start using jutsus.

ornis
October 22, 2007, 11:33 AM
Is there anything in Buddhism that covers 6 elements? I mean the sage of six paths and most of Naruto has some connection to Buddhism, so maybe there's something in Buddhist scriptures that can clarify this enigma.

Yes there is. I posted a excerpt that involves them, but it doesn't seem that significant to the majority here^^ Kishi may alter the Buddhist ideal just enough to make it seem like Yin/Yang, but mind would be great to me... I don't get the issue. It's nearly its own foil (it is to me, kind of its own Yin/Yang---I don't really wish to clarify -_-; lol).

Would he have trouble explaining that? Eh, I don't know what his reasoning would be to skip it.... Hopefully it has nothing to do with his target audience. No one questioned the elements when it's very likely that earth can "defeat" lightning (conductors).

sabuk-demon
October 22, 2007, 11:49 AM
Uh, didn't jiraiya say he thinks Pein is only using summons because that is all he thinks he needs to win. He is just being cocky. i don't think it has anything to do with the body and i think after Jiraiya starts taking control of the battle with hermit mode, pein will start using jutsus.

okay...why would he switch bodys then? in not just use
the regular one if he wants to just use random jutsu.that
body has its special's.in they are good.just i am starting
to think jiraiya might just beat this body.by showing hermit
mode.you see pein face when he did it.it looks like jiraiya
might have created his own jutsu from the past.maybe

ichimatsu
October 22, 2007, 12:02 PM
stop making relation btween the 6 elements and the 6 bodies.
the 6 elements are what nagato real body mastered when he was a student of jiraya.
and the 6 bodies are related to rennigan his eye, maybe those body are his rennigan power

Alex_1
October 22, 2007, 12:06 PM
I just looked at the manga again... and I sort of think that all of those summons might not be different summons after-all. Not so sure. My predictions are always off so take it with a grain of salt, but I wouldnt' be surprised if it was some sort of genjutsu, or if not then it's just different 'colors' of the chameleon. When I saw the bull/ox thing from a distance, it sort of reminded me of the chameleon and it sort of had similar piercings to Pein.

I don't think Pein's style thus far is arrogant. They are destructive, but if it's some type of genjutsu. He is arrogant in the way that almost all Naruto characters are arrogant, but not now IMO.

I'm also starting to think that Jiraiya might not really die. And it has nothing to do with the transformation. The stage seems to conveniently set for Pein vs. Naruto - and that still might happen . This might be a battle where there isn't a death.

jerger
October 22, 2007, 12:42 PM
chakra is not an element...

a lot of his philosophy comes from both chinese and japanese philosophies... most japanese philosophy was a result of heavy influence from the chinese during early times before japan was an empire... i think he tries keeping that view with the ancient vs modern philosophies... anyways...

chackra is a term more found in tibetan buddhism, then chinese were the term "chi" is often used. In most chinese systems there are 5 elements, with various names associated to organs. the main elements (you could change metal to earth etc)

wood
earth
metal
fire
water
air

There is no traditional sixth element... this could be naruto spacific then.. maybe he is 5 elements, but uses one element two times. or maybe the 6th is a blend of the 5...

or maybe like a lot of naruto stuff, he added a 6th element for fun.

elements found in other philosophical systems in asia:
"space" which would also be related to "sound" in hinduism this may also be a blend of the 4 other chakras (excluding metal).... going with how there is a sound nation, maybe this is relevant.

also there are 7 chakra areas in the body:
http://www.tantra-kundalini.com/chakras.htm

ornis
October 22, 2007, 12:57 PM
I guess I'll pull back from my vote then. If the sixth element is mind/conscience (Ajna (http://www.tantra-kundalini.com/ajna.htm) from your source), I just happened to come across the possibility before it was revealed to be true. I agree Kishi may just do anything. The evidence of no traditional sixth element supports the possibility. Plus, it's Kishi's story.

matrice
October 22, 2007, 01:03 PM
More likely the sixth is a special element which only a rinnegan user can create-control. Maybe the void. I'm just making up a random idea, but if you think about that the void shouldn't tecnically be an element, but maybe it's just something that only Pain can do, a sort of negation of all the others element or something like that. It's a completely fool idea, but since we are in the "prediction" section I guess I can even take some of your time and go with a random thought without any clear reason.

TheChosenOne
October 22, 2007, 01:42 PM
Pain being the only one to master the 6 the element is not true(I think) Someone else had to master it before, otherwise how would Jiraiya know that there was 6 elemental chakra. (Maybe it was written in the history books) I think having the rinnegan greatly helps in controling element otherwise Jiraiya also should be able to master all the elements. Rite now the 6th element could be anything . I personally believe it will be something that be rite along the mind over nature theory.

Ero Sennin

jerger
October 22, 2007, 02:06 PM
err "the void" would be "space" which already is an element. (just not in naruto).

mind is not an element, but in pokemon it is a type of power used that rivals elemental moves lol... sorry i played it on nintendo ds

daniel1983
October 22, 2007, 03:03 PM
I could see the 6th element being Space/Void.

Sasuke used a 'space/void' jutsu....

All summonings seem to come from this 'space'....

If it is not 'space or void', what type of jutsu is a space void jutsu?

Shadow is based on yin/yang.....but no mention of what makes up summoning/sealing etc.

This could be Kishi's opportunity to explain the functioning of summoning, etc. I could see that happening this chapter.

Any maybe some backstory to Jman's life....and why he looks like a frog...ha ha.

sashpimp
October 22, 2007, 04:25 PM
I dont know, the manga said that Pein beaten Amegakure(Hanzo) by himself!!!!

While Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunande coudn't beat them together!

thats when they were younger lol

big_p
October 22, 2007, 04:41 PM
I could see the 6th element being Space/Void.

Sasuke used a 'space/void' jutsu....

All summonings seem to come from this 'space'....

If it is not 'space or void', what type of jutsu is a space void jutsu?

Shadow is based on yin/yang.....but no mention of what makes up summoning/sealing etc.

This could be Kishi's opportunity to explain the functioning of summoning, etc. I could see that happening this chapter.

Any maybe some backstory to Jman's life....and why he looks like a frog...ha ha.

If they throw out an explanation on summoning, will Naruto ever get that info. Seeing as how so many people, myself included, would like to see him learn the Hiraishin no Jutsu of his father I think it would be great for him to learn the essentials of summoning, then the requirements for a self summon or something like that. Doubt it will happen though, would be nice.

ElToroDelDiablo
October 22, 2007, 04:43 PM
Hey dani1993, you`re right.
the 6th element could be space/time manipulation, like summoning
(perhaps Yondaimes body flicker tech too)
But, Sasuke were saved by his teammate(I dunno his name, sry):
1st summon - Sasuke
2nd summon (teammate) summoned that snake with Sasuke - i think

VaizardNL
October 22, 2007, 04:46 PM
Hey dani1993, you`re right.
the 6th element could be space/time manipulation, like summoning
(perhaps Yondaimes body flicker tech too)
But, Sasuke were saved by his teammate(I dunno his name, sry):
1st summon - Sasuke
2nd summon (teammate) summoned that snake with Sasuke - i think

Idd, i also thought (like i said before) that the 6th thingy would be summoning. And about the yondaimes body flicker, i think you could be absolutely right about that, since he "teleported" between the kunais. Hence leaving this "realm" and popping out somewhere else.

akatsuki child
October 22, 2007, 04:53 PM
the 6 element....it can't be too big of a deal if jiryia only took about 2 seconds saying it.
It;s shadow chakra, shikamaru's chakra, or light and dark chakra.
Yamato said something about light and dark chakra during Naruto's training

sashpimp
October 22, 2007, 05:06 PM
If they throw out an explanation on summoning, will Naruto ever get that info. Seeing as how so many people, myself included, would like to see him learn the Hiraishin no Jutsu of his father I think it would be great for him to learn the essentials of summoning, then the requirements for a self summon or something like that. Doubt it will happen though, would be nice.

naruto can already summon he did the pact already

xneorisingx
October 22, 2007, 05:21 PM
I think that the hermit mode will allow for jiraya to use multiple summons at once. It looks like the tiny hillbilly frogs are part of his shoulders, and his eyes are all weird and toad-y. I figure that they will summon a crapload of frogs and just have a big fight reminiscant of godzilla ^-^

OR it would allow multiple element jutsu to be used, as previously suggested by a hundred people. Like kakuzu, except not as good.

And the Rinnegan... I don't get it yet. I am sorta hoping it doesn't turn out as having the same powers as the Sharingan and Byakugan but combined.

I want more history damnit! Kishi is sorta making plot holes before the old plot holes are filled in. But he's a master of suspense and I love him anyway. We need another "Kakashi Gaiden" sized manga filler soon to give us a history lesson or something. And no more anime fillers ever.

sashpimp
October 22, 2007, 05:26 PM
6 elements are in order fire>wind>lightning>earth>water>fire and the sixth must be a mix shadow/light probably called "spirit" because its shikamarus affinity, we can see it when he fights hidan and uses asuma's chakra blades.
[hr]


I want more history damnit! Kishi is sorta making plot holes before the old plot holes are filled in. But he's a master of suspense and I love him anyway. We need another "Kakashi Gaiden" sized manga filler soon to give us a history lesson or something. And no more anime fillers ever.

i am 100% agreeeing with you, we need another gaiden!!!

Littlewig
October 22, 2007, 05:44 PM
So, does anyone have any prediction on how exactly Pain is doing all the summoning?

Because everything that is being discussed so far doesn't explain how exactly he is doing the impossible.

He doesn't need do a a complex hand seal, scarifice blood, or smack his hand on the ground to summon. Also the fact he can summon more than one creature, this would suggest he has a pact with all these creatures.

Is it even possible to hold more than 1 pact?

Unless he himself runs the animal kingdom, and is the boss of all the animals, I don't see how Pain can do these summons.

I just don't see how hacing an affinity to summoning or whatever the 6th element is can let Pain avoid and break all the rules of summoning we have seen so far in Naruto.

TheChosenOne
October 22, 2007, 05:45 PM
Hey dani1993, you`re right.
the 6th element could be space/time manipulation, like summoning
(perhaps Yondaimes body flicker tech too)
But, Sasuke were saved by his teammate(I dunno his name, sry):
1st summon - Sasuke
2nd summon (teammate) summoned that snake with Sasuke - i think

Does that mean sasuke or sugeistu know bout the 6th element.

QMark
October 22, 2007, 05:49 PM
So, does anyone have any prediction on how exactly Pain is doing all the summoning?

Because everything that is being discussed so far doesn't explain how exactly he is doing the impossible.

He doesn't need do a a complex hand seal, scarifice blood, or smack his hand on the ground to summon. Also the fact he can summon more than one creature, this would suggest he has a pact with all these creatures.

Is it even possible to hold more than 1 pact?

Unless he himself runs the animal kingdom, and is the boss of all the animals, I don't see how Pain can do these summons.

I just don't see how hacing an affinity to summoning or whatever the 6th element is can let Pain avoid and break all the rules of summoning we have seen so far in Naruto.

Its quite possible that the body he is using is allowing him to do multiple type summons. It would relax Jiraiya's suspicions of him only using Kuchiyose and nothing else. Possibly because thats the body's main function.

TheChosenOne
October 22, 2007, 06:09 PM
Its quite possible that the body he is using is allowing him to do multiple type summons. It would relax Jiraiya's suspicions of him only using Kuchiyose and nothing else. Possibly because thats the body's main function.

That's very much possible.

DarkManSharingan32
October 22, 2007, 06:11 PM
So, does anyone have any prediction on how exactly Pain is doing all the summoning?

Because everything that is being discussed so far doesn't explain how exactly he is doing the impossible.

He doesn't need do a a complex hand seal, scarifice blood, or smack his hand on the ground to summon. Also the fact he can summon more than one creature, this would suggest he has a pact with all these creatures.

Is it even possible to hold more than 1 pact?

Unless he himself runs the animal kingdom, and is the boss of all the animals, I don't see how Pain can do these summons.

I just don't see how hacing an affinity to summoning or whatever the 6th element is can let Pain avoid and break all the rules of summoning we have seen so far in Naruto.

Well, lets take first things first...
Multiple Contracts are possible, since both Yondaime and Sandaime could summon an animal as well the Death God. It may be an exception, but that much isn't explained.

Now lets look at the actual creatures that Pein is summoning:

1: Animals we have never seen summoned before
2: They all look strikingly similar to Pein.

Now a contract itself is a contractual agreement between the Summoner and the Summoned. The Boss can choose whether or not to serve their master, but not whether to not they are summoned.

It could the case that Pein is using his Mastery of Time/Space Ninjutsu to forcibly draw out these animals under a similar mind-control that Sasuke used with Manda.

But it is likely that this Mind-Control is fully permanent, and thus allows Pein to use them freely without blood-contracts.

kaylee
October 22, 2007, 06:53 PM
Yeah, the fact that all of Pain's summons have rinnengan-looking eyes is the most puzzling part. It could be that they're under some kind of mind control...

Is it possible that all of his summons are really just the same animal -- one that is capable of changing its shape?

Still, it doesn't explain the eyes or the fact that Pain is only using summons. Lots of questions this chapter.

ThatOtherOtherGuy
October 22, 2007, 07:02 PM
I have a rather neat idea as to why Pain is using only summons. Summons are a ninja's trump card, incredibly powerful but exhausting in use. When facing a summon, a ninja generally has no other choice than to summon his own creature. This, along with how Pain's Rinnegan allows him perfect chakra control and probably other abilites that assist him in overcoming their high energy requirements, allow him to constantly push Jiraiya with his creatures. By summoning many different things, he's forcing Jiraiya to summon the most powerful thing he can.

At which point Pain will stop playing around, defeat Jiraiya, and dominate whatever he summoned, thereby granting Pain a powerful, obedient soldier while taking that summon away from anyone else with a contract with that summon family.

That fits in rather well with Pain's overall plan of gaining enough power to control war, me thinks.

Another thing, there's no point for having a body to specialize in each element as Pain's Rinnegan already gives anybody it's in mastery over all of them. Why split yourself into six weaker parts? There's no conceivable advantage to it, at least none that we can yet discern. I see little here to make theories out of, so I won't touch it yet.

Also, I do not think the sixth element is space/time/summoning. While it is a subcategory of jutsu, it does not fit in as an element, as from what we can infer from these last few chapters is that the last element is supposedly almost impossible to use. We know of several ninja that can summon creatures, and we know that The Forth's trademark jutsu is an example of summoning jutsu, but even someone as skilled as he could not mix the elements, a feat arguably easier than using the sixth element.

But, personally, if you ask me, I'm probably just overthinking the whole sixth element and it's something really obvious that most of us are missing somehow.

TheChosenOne
October 22, 2007, 07:13 PM
Controlling the summons against their will sound splausible. Like sasuke did with manda after the deidra fight. Put he should have at least on personal summon. I think he will release it after he sees what Jiraiya can do within hisSennin Mode.

sashpimp
October 22, 2007, 07:17 PM
Yeah, the fact that all of Pain's summons have rinnengan-looking eyes is the most puzzling part. It could be that they're under some kind of mind control...

Is it possible that all of his summons are really just the same animal -- one that is capable of changing its shape?

Still, it doesn't explain the eyes or the fact that Pain is only using summons. Lots of questions this chapter.

yeah i agree, the fact that he is only using summons and protecting his body by doing the invisible jutsu thing menas that he is hiding his body from damage or maybe that the body cant do anything else. since he never attacked himself with elemental jutsus, but only the fact theat he described the jutsu that jiraiya performed means that he has a wide range of jutsus, its impossible that he knows them all since jiraiya said the ridokusan invented most modern jutsu not all of them. but he must know alot. i think the knowledge keeps getting passed on with the generations of rinnegan. not the father kid thing but more like the eyes themselves come with the knowledge.

TheChosenOne
October 22, 2007, 07:35 PM
Eyes themselves being a separate being from pain which helps him in battle and with jutsu is possible. Damn is there a weakness in rinnegan.

QMark
October 22, 2007, 08:12 PM
Quick notes about this chapter that I would like to point out.

- Pein quickly saw through Jiraiya's barrier jutsu. Then countered with a highly offensive summoning barrage of creatures.
- All of Pein's creatures that are summoned appear to have the Rinnegan. This could be Kishi's way of telling us that he has somehow took over the animal or has defeated them once before.

Now what is definitive about the Rinnegan itself:

- Allowed Pein the mastery of all 6 elements by the age of 10. Which Jiraiya said no single person can have.
- Approximately 3 years of actual training and he mastered all the jutsus Jiraiya taught him.

Now if we assume all the information about the Rinnegan we have is 100% correct through translations, then it seems to have some pretty neat abilities.

- Visual Jutsu Insight (Breaks down any jutsu merely just by looking at it at a level even higher than that of Sharingan)
- Grants the eye holder all 6 elements.

Some additional possible abilities include but are not limited to:

- Allows Pein to switch between bodies at will. (If this is the case, its probably works alongside the will of the person he is switching to as well. Which would explain why dead enemies make better people to switch to.)

- Allows Pein to control the mind and body at will. (This of course means he isnt switching bodies but merely controlling them. IE Sasori controlling puppets, except on a much higher level.)

If we assume the first possible ability is true then we can also find Pein's weakness. Which is if he doesn't have a body to switch to or his will is overpowered, he will be suppressed or reborn. It seems this might be why the eyes are legendary and rare to see. They're not so much of a bloodline rather than a single ability granted to 1 person each time it leaves the current plane of existence.
Of course, all of this is just a huge assumption. It answers a few things but it also raises alot more questions. Its nice to think about the possibilities though right?

otakuami
October 22, 2007, 08:33 PM
I think the Jiraiya battle's great and all, but is anybody else a little bored with this storyline? I mean I'm all for switch the main story from Naruto for a while this has been dull to me. I wait all week and then end up disappointed, I'm not even excited anymore. At any rate, I bet it'll be more fighting next week between them or a flash back again. :notrust

renrutal
October 22, 2007, 08:39 PM
Summoning animals mind control... Manda also had Sharingan eyes when he was being controlled.

Is the Rinnegan a super-powered Sharingan? I wonder if the Sharingan really came from the Byakugan clan, they seem so different.

Now... if there are 6 elements, how come there are only 5 great nations in the Naruto World. Is the 6th element common knowledge? This 6th element doesn't seem to come naturally for everyone, otherwise Kakashi would consider to tell it to Naruto, I wonder if Kakashi even knows it.

kaylee
October 22, 2007, 08:47 PM
Kakashi definitely knows about the 6th element, he just didn't explain it at that time because it was too complicated complicated for Naruto to understand.

Chapter 316, page 9 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/316/09/)

TheChosenOne
October 22, 2007, 08:50 PM
I don't think a lot of people know about the 6th element. I believe all the sannin and prolly hokage's that it. The 5 nations theory is smart (I didn't realize that, I appalaud you).

The storyline is great we are getting more and more insight on Pain and also on how powerful Jiraiya is. Are you telling me that you don't want to know more about pain and his rinnegan. There would be no point of redirecting to the Itachi and Sasuke fight or Naruto finding Sasuke (Granted that would also be exciting).

badluckartist
October 22, 2007, 09:46 PM
did anybody else catch that whole "three great doujutsu" thing jiraiya said? im starting to wonder if that is what is commonly perceived (byakugan, sharingan, and rinnegan), or something else. why would two of the great three eye techniques belong solely to one nation, out of the entire ninja world?

what im getting at is that kishi just opened up the story to the possibility of one or two other doujutsu to be introduced. the three we know about are all so closely related, that it's possible they all came from the same kekkei genkai; ie the rinnegan became the byakugan which later became the sharingan (the latter of which is common knowledge). damn you kishi, for exploding the plot in ~9 chapters and then raising sooooo many damn questions.

as much as i am amped for jiraiya revealing one of his great jutsu, i wish he'd use some of his other jutsu. like the toad oil fire bomb thing. or the great swamp jutsu, but at max power (the one he used on the snakes was only a third of it's power). i'm becoming enraged at how lamely awesome these genetic eyes are.

jiraiya's going to bite it soon, but if it's due to this battle or not is an up in the air thing.

jono_aburame11
October 22, 2007, 10:38 PM
i think jiraiya might kill/defeat pein's current body, so he gets into another one....
i am not really saying wether jiraiya might die or not, because i dont know how powerful his sannin form is.

i agree with the theory pein is controlling his summons.
[hr]
also, in the long run, i dont think jiraiya is going to win, even if he defeats 1 body.
he has been forced into sannin form from only summonings!!!

think about his jutsu!

shamoo
October 22, 2007, 11:39 PM
I'm not sure if anyone made this point already, but I think it is pretty obvious that since he Pain is hiding his body and these summons have Rinnegan and Jiraiya notes that they are acting unusually powerful, Pain must have transfered his mind into the summons or something like that. If Sharingan can control another by illusion, perhaps Rinnegan just completely overwhelms its opponents mind.

Whatever the case, Pain is hiding himself and not fighting because his body is helpless right now while he is in the minds of his summons.

Alexis
October 23, 2007, 02:03 AM
I'm not sure if anyone made this point already, but I think it is pretty obvious that since he Pain is hiding his body and these summons have Rinnegan and Jiraiya notes that they are acting unusually powerful, Pain must have transfered his mind into the summons or something like that. If Sharingan can control another by illusion, perhaps Rinnegan just completely overwhelms its opponents mind.
Where did Jiraya say that the summons are acting unusually powerful?
And the rinnegan isnt the only thing that appeared on these summons, but also piercings as well. That suggests that it didn't come from a body switching technique, but rather that he at least did something to them physically as well.

vollan
October 23, 2007, 02:40 AM
Im not sure really on exactly what they said but when naruto walked away with jiraya for learning rasengan Itachi and the shark dude watched them and itachi said : if we attack jiraya we probably kill him but he takes us with him, no matter the result if whole akatsuki would attack him.

something like that was said. so jiraya have some ultimate power that kills both himself and everyone around him ??

DELAHK
October 23, 2007, 03:02 AM
Conclusion:

Pain = Ace Ventura

A little more ninjutsu! I beg you! I don´t think Jiraiya is going to answer Pain with more Kuchiyose, there will be a twist in this fight for the sake of an epic battle, and see what this new form is capable of.

Anyway, I don´t see Pain overwhelmed by this "ultimate form".

VincentV
October 23, 2007, 04:06 AM
I think Jiraiya will have a hard time beating pain. But eventually he will manage to kill him... and then he finds out that it has been a kage-bunshin and the real pein is still alive and well :)

fcchan
October 23, 2007, 04:26 AM
Sixth element might be space.
Might be hard to imagine how space manifests, but you can visualize it as pervasive where events takes place.
When it manifests, space is a dimension or localised area. Space is also connected to all other elements.

i think jiraiya will lose but ibiki is coming.

ichimatsu
October 23, 2007, 05:04 AM
here is what i think:
-when nagato was jiraya student he mastered the 6 th element, the renningan helped him to do that.
- after that nagato/pein discovered the real power of the rennigan!! in his inner he discovered the room where the 6 body are. just like naruto has an inner where the kyubi is. pien has the 6 body on his inner. that's the renningan power. or somme of it power.
- each body has a style of comba. one is a large range fighter other one is beter in colse comba, and other is genjetsu style... maybe he got a sharingan user in his inner who knows with kishi never know.
- as we sow only sharingan users are capable to go in someone else inner like sassuke did with naruto, that's why pein is with tobi.

Littlewig
October 23, 2007, 07:55 AM
The 6th element is Love, just like in Captain Planet!

You guys can reference Buddhism and Chinese mythology, I'll stick with my American 80's cartoons. :tem

Nah, but maybe the 6th element is visible ligth and dark. That would explain how he turned invisible during the fight.

narutokuro
October 23, 2007, 08:14 AM
Who the heck is this ibiki character? Is he a frog or a student of jiraiya?

Expect Pein Body 2 to get rocked. This fight will reveal all the essential techniques/weaknesses/strategies that it will take to beat pein. J-man will has to live long enough to inform eveyone else in konoha on how to beat pein. J-man will kill at least 2 bodies, trust me.

Another question? How long does it take for pein to make another body. If one gets destroyed whats stopping him from getting another random body. This info will prove if its he has any true weaknesses.

kaylee
October 23, 2007, 08:40 AM
Nah, but maybe the 6th element is visible ligth and dark. That would explain how he turned invisible during the fight.

My interpretation of that was that his invisibility was a property of his summon. Pain steps inside the chameleon, and then the chameleon simply blends itself into the rest of its environment. Not true invisibility. More like camouflage. I could be wrong though.
[hr]

Who the heck is this ibiki character? Is he a frog or a student of jiraiya?

Morino Ibiki (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/40/Naruto40-12/) is the first examiner from the chuunin exam arc, master of interrogation.

DELAHK
October 23, 2007, 08:42 AM
My interpretation of that was that his invisibility was a property of his summon. Pain steps inside the chameleon, and then the chameleon simply blends itself into the rest of its environment. Not true invisibility. More like camouflage. I could be wrong though.
<hr noshade size="1">


Morino Ibiki (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/40/Naruto40-12/) is the first examiner from the chuunin exam arc, master of interrogation.

No, you´re perfectly right. After Pain introduces himself into the chamaleons mouth, both became invisible. And I agree with the camouflage idea, its more suitable to a chamaleon.

VincentV
October 23, 2007, 08:43 AM
Who the heck is this ibiki character? Is he a frog or a student of jiraiya?

[...].

http://won.won-fma.com/images/membres/avatars/12/00.jpg
This is Ibiki. He took the written part of the chuunin-exam

m0ji
October 23, 2007, 09:03 AM
well i also guess Jirayja will at least take out 1 body of Pain...and than try to flee...we dont know though...Lets see what his Hermit mode can do o.O even though i m pretty much looking forward to it..it looks interessting :D

Navid.
October 23, 2007, 09:09 AM
I dont know if you guys are thinking too much about this six element stuff, or I'm thinking too little about it...

When I first read the chapter, I immediately thought: Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Lightning and the Ying/Yang that was touched on during Naruto's training.

And to be honest I never really thought any further about it...


Anyway, since this is a prediction thread, well I might as well make a prediction:

Jiraya will step out of the shadow and look ridiculous, then Pain will make some sort of comment, efore we get a trademark outbust from Jiraya arguing with the two frogs?? on his shoulders.

Fom there we will either get a a continuation of the Pain/Jiraya fight, or we switch to Naruto chasing Sasuke chasing Itachi...

But judging by Kishi latley I think he will conclude the Jiraya/Pain fight before jumping to other issues, and well... I think next chapter we will see Jiraya getting the upper hand before the chapter ends, leading to Pain finally showing why he is cosidered a God to be abale to fend of Jiraya's attack and finally turn the tables.

Yeah, I know kind of uninspired, but to be honest, Naruto and Bleach feel kinda flat lately in story telling and twists in comparison to the likes One Piece and the returning Hunter x Hunter.

Littlewig
October 23, 2007, 09:23 AM
I dont know if you guys are thinking too much about this six element stuff, or I'm thinking too little about it...

When I first read the chapter, I immediately thought: Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Lightning and the Ying/Yang that was touched on during Naruto's training.

And to be honest I never really thought any further about it...



The ying/yang stuff was about the composition of chakra, it has two parts, ying and yang. And i have to agree with you, ying/yang, light/dark is the 6th part of the chakra wheel, not another natural force.

Not all 6 parts has to be forces of nature. The wheel is not about nature, it's about chakra, specifically chakra manipulate and composition. It would make sense for the inner entity of the chakra wheel to be ying/yang, the composition of chakra, since it is the governing force of which other element a person can use.

I believe in order to use two natural elements of the wheel, you first must understand the composition of your ying/yang chakra. Understanding how it is design/built will allow you to use more than one natural element. Bloodlines are formed when your ying/yang composition is fused with 2 or more of these natural elements, thus forming a new chakra composition, ie your bloodline. That is why it is passed down from generation to generation, it is fused with your chakra composition.

I believe rissengan gives Nagato the ability to change his chakra composition at will, that is why he can use the other 5 elements.

For naruto to learn anymore elements beyond his wind manipulation, he is going to have to use the key to unlock the rest of his chakra composite. Otherwise, without both parts, he will only be able to use wind manipulation.

Black/Light
October 23, 2007, 10:42 AM
I still think TS is a shadow clone. He was only rammed into the wall by that goat he tossed aside once he went hermit-mode but seeing as he went hermit-mode I would think that that effects his power some. If he aint a clone than I think he will kill this Pain.

ornis
October 23, 2007, 11:14 AM
@ Littlewig

Actually, yin/yang can be interpreted as a nature of nature... It's evident in how the Naruto-verse elemental circle is presented, with each element having its own foil right behind it---in the same cycle, every element definitely loses and definitely wins (conditionally). The balance is in the system of these elements of nature.

Littlewig
October 23, 2007, 12:07 PM
@ Littlewig

Actually, yin/yang can be iterpreted as a nature of nature... It's evident in how the Naruto-verse elemental circle is presented, with each element having its own foil right behind it---in the same cycle, every element definitely loses and definitely wins (conditionally). The balance is in the system of these elements of nature.

That is exactly what i was trying to get at. A person's ying/yang chakra determines which two of the 5 elements he can control.

As you say, ying and yang are in struggle with each other, analogous to each element having the edge on another while at the same time being weak against another. Your ying and yang would both correspond to one of the 5 wheels, determining which elements you could use.

So, a person could have an affinity to wind/fire, fire/lightning, or rarely have an affinity to both these struggles in nature.

It would be impossible for someone to be wind/water, without at first having an affinity to wind/lightning, lightning/earth, and then earth/water.

So with mutliple affinities, ie multiple struggles between elements, you create a bloodline.

That is why I believe Sasuke's sharingan is made up of fire/wind and lightning/wind.

coworlando
October 23, 2007, 12:22 PM
That is exactly what i was trying to get at. A person's ying/yang chakra determines which two of the 5 elements he can control.

As you say, ying and yang are in struggle with each other, analogous to each element having the edge on another while at the same time being weak against another. Your ying and yang would both correspond to one of the 5 wheels, determining which elements you could use.

So, a person could have an affinity to wind/fire, fire/lightning, or rarely have an affinity to both these struggles in nature.

It would be impossible for someone to be wind/water, without at first having an affinity to wind/lightning, lightning/earth, and then earth/water.

So with mutliple affinities, ie multiple struggles between elements, you create a bloodline.

That is why I believe Sasuke's sharingan is made up of fire/wind and lightning/wind.


So this 6 elements deal. What element was shikimarau's shadow technique when he used the chakara blades? Isn't that the 6th?

Inevitable_Exit
October 23, 2007, 12:40 PM
Whatever the 6th element is, it has to get balanced out somehow...or Pain really is a God and will continue to smack everyone around.

Sad thing is, Jiraiya is getting serious...and Pain is still messing around. In a way it is kind of disappointing since its Jman and he is a legend (still dont think Jiraiya>Serious Oro though !). But in a way I like it because it shows that Pain is leet after all.

P.S. Ornis seeing any spoilers up on 2chan? :P

The Noobslayer
October 23, 2007, 12:55 PM
Sad thing is, Jiraiya is getting serious...and Pain is still messing around. In a way it is kind of disappointing since its Jman and he is a legend (still dont think Jiraiya>Serious Oro though !). But in a way I like it because it shows that Pain is leet after all.


You know its for that reason I dont see Naruto beating Pein without going Kyubii, which is really disappointing. Even if he gets "that jutsu" I really dont believe he is even close to being as powerful as Jiraiya, even though Kakashi said Naruto had surpassed him (KaKashi, which I don't really believe. Kishi just said that to force readers to believe Naruto has improved...but seriously come on).

Whenever Naruto grows tails he just destroys everything, there is no skill involved. I want to see him take Pein on with skill, not tails.

daniel1983
October 23, 2007, 01:03 PM
I think we may see a flashback/history showing information about Jiraiya and his froglike appearance...

If you think about it.....the other sannin both have had something about them hiding their actual appearance.

Orochimaru showed us his old appearance when he was in another's body.
Tsunade is an old lady disguised as a younger woman.

So maybe what we are seeing now is the Toad Sage's actual form?? I kinda got that impression from the ma and pa conversation about J-man does not keep in that form because he would scare away the ladies.....

It would be interesting and kinda fit the trend.


....and the more I look over it......I think Kishi forgot about there being only 5 elements and wrote 6 elements.....just like he forgot the manga was about Naruto and made it about people with special eyes pwning all....

ornis
October 23, 2007, 01:04 PM
...

As you say, ying and yang are in struggle with each other, analogous to each element having the edge on another while at the same time being weak against another. Your ying and yang would both correspond to one of the 5 wheels, determining which elements you could use.

...

It would be impossible for someone to be wind/water, without at first having an affinity to wind/lightning, lightning/earth, and then earth/water.

So with mutliple affinities, ie multiple struggles between elements, you create a bloodline.

That is why I believe Sasuke's sharingan is made up of fire/wind and lightning/wind.

Interesting idea. I'll study it more. But about the angle on being a wind and water user (because of the ability to use wind, lightning, earth, and water)...

Theorizing: To gain an affinity for wind and water, what goes on?

Exemplary Kekkei Genkai: Ice (let's go with it by default, of course [Haku's Hyouton])

To "form" ice you need specific atomic bonds (takes care of Raiton) you need the cooling of the medium to achieve the form (wind and water), and finally, you find a solid structure that mimics rock...(there's earth).

But in Naruto-sense, if you have a struggle between two elements such as lightning and earth, what you're saying helps to imply how someone may be fittingly pushed to use the opponents to the elements that he or she is weak at manipulating.

But it may also work as an imitator.... it may achieve a relative effect that can only be reached through the elements (s)he's not able to manipulate...:

Fuuton > Raiton
Raiton > Doton
Doton > Suiton

It's like, in order to make up for a lack of efficiency when it comes to combining R&D, you thus use F&S....



P.S. Ornis seeing any spoilers up on 2chan? :P

I'm not exactly familiar with the site; so, unfortunately, no :/

dewy
October 23, 2007, 01:07 PM
I agree, Naruto, really needs to start showing his stuff... I understand they are just taking turns showing how everyone improved, i.e shikamaru, sakura, now showing Jiraya's full potential, etc.. But Naruto's growth, at least whats shown so far, really makes him still the worst b/w sakura and Sasuke.

Lets just hope Jiraya can escape.... *prays*

ornis
October 23, 2007, 01:10 PM
....and the more I look over it......I think Kishi forgot about there being only 5 elements and wrote 6 elements.....just like he forgot the manga was about Naruto and made it about people with special eyes pwning all....

If this turns out to be a typo, Kishi should go back and make it canonical :amuse

jerger
October 23, 2007, 01:26 PM
err man you guys are funny, for all the love of anime some of you know very little on east asian philosophy...

yin and yang are not an element, nor do they share an element. you could say each element is yin or yang, or a mix of both...

the basic 5 elements are: fire, water, earth, wood, metal

in some systems, instead of "metal" they have "space" or "void".

in some systems, instead of void/space/metal they have "air"

so there are five elements that we know:
fire, water, earth, wood/planet, metal/iron

the 6th could be:
space/void
air

however air/space/void are all related to "sound" as well. this last catagory is often made up of the other 4 elements (there is no 6 element system, but the 5th element often is a higher element, in naruto maybe the 6th element is the higher element)... the last element is sometimes a "refined" element...

however in traditional 5 element system, they are all seperate and there is no higher level. in chackra philosophies like in non-japanese and non-chinese traditions, the last element is a refined element (which is found in tibet/india).



http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/accu.asp#five

"Yin and Yang are two Chinese words to explain the duality of the universe. Yin, meaning moon, soft, dark, yielding, etc. Yang, meaning sun, hard, light, overpowering, etc. Some say that yin and yang or opposites but they cannot exist without each other. They are both interdependent, and conflicting. The relationships between yin and yang are used in traditional Chinese medicine to explain the physiology and pathology of the human body. Yin and yang are also used as a guide in diagnosis and treatment of patients.

The Five Element Theory teaches that the material world is made up of 5 basic elements which are, wood, fire, earth, metal, and water. We can adapt to the environment, but we're also dependent on it. The Five Element Theory has a generation cycle and a destruction cycle. Wood generates fire, fire generates earth, earth generates metal, metal generates water, and water generates wood.

Each of the five elements has a relationship the internal organs. (The pericardium is the membrane that surrounds the heart and is not considered an organ in western medicine. The triple heater or san jiao is also not an organ, but a function. "

narutokuro
October 23, 2007, 01:37 PM
Kishi has does 2 things in this manga.
First, follow his basic themes throughout the entire story.
1) loves ying & yang
2) loves to parallel teams of 3, with each member being a mix of another
3) teacher vs student
4)etc...
Secondly create the most wild, un & orginal culturally mythic story telling.

I say all this to say if you read close enough, J-man will be a clone b/c it parallel's the past. Jiraiya will die b/c it parallel's student vs teacher. Pein will take J-man's body to fight naruto one day. Futhermore my prediction for 376 is J-man will own the sh*t out of Pein.

In closing. Just like how Orchimaru vs Naruto was rediculous - a fight that left a crater in the forest and almost killed everyone. Orchimaru got pwned like a b*tch half dead then being stabbed and mind swipped. B/c of Kishi's parallelism J-man will Beat Pein in a battle just as if not more rediculous than O vs N but will still be B*tch slapped and killed rather weak.

jerger
October 23, 2007, 01:39 PM
it would be interesting to see dr. oro come back and help kill akatsuki... but then go away in peace (still fullfilling oro's goal of dead ak) but not really seeking empirical ambitions

ornis
October 23, 2007, 01:42 PM
err man you guys are funny, for all the love of anime some of you know very little on east asian philosophy...

yin and yang are not an element, nor do they share an element. you could say each element is yin or yang, or a mix of both...

the basic 5 elements are: fire, water, earth, wood, metal

in some systems, instead of "metal" they have "space" or "void".

in some systems, instead of void/space/metal they have "air"

so there are five elements that we know:
fire, water, earth, wood/planet, metal/iron

the 6th could be:
space/void
air

however air/space/void are all related to "sound" as well. this last catagory is often made up of the other 4 elements (there is no 6 element system, but the 5th element often is a higher element, in naruto maybe the 6th element is the higher element)... the last element is sometimes a "refined" element...

however in traditional 5 element system, they are all seperate and there is no higher level. in chackra philosophies like in non-japanese and non-chinese traditions, the last element is a refined element (which is found in tibet/india).



http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/accu.asp#five

"Yin and Yang are two Chinese words to explain the duality of the universe. Yin, meaning moon, soft, dark, yielding, etc. Yang, meaning sun, hard, light, overpowering, etc. Some say that yin and yang or opposites but they cannot exist without each other. They are both interdependent, and conflicting. The relationships between yin and yang are used in traditional Chinese medicine to explain the physiology and pathology of the human body. Yin and yang are also used as a guide in diagnosis and treatment of patients.

The Five Element Theory teaches that the material world is made up of 5 basic elements which are, wood, fire, earth, metal, and water. We can adapt to the environment, but we're also dependent on it. The Five Element Theory has a generation cycle and a destruction cycle. Wood generates fire, fire generates earth, earth generates metal, metal generates water, and water generates wood.

Each of the five elements has a relationship the internal organs. (The pericardium is the membrane that surrounds the heart and is not considered an organ in western medicine. The triple heater or san jiao is also not an organ, but a function. "


I hope this isn't targetting any of my posts. I'm saying here that I don't believe Yin/Yang to be the sixth element. I do believe it's in them all though.

So, could you not address the general audience, because you're not appropriately addressing everybody within that group ;)

The Don
October 23, 2007, 01:50 PM
I think jiraiyas hermit mode is to draw attention away from the fact that he is about to die, by giving jiraiya a means to fight payne/itachi/madara at their leve it makes it more suprising when he does die. Everyone assumed he would die a couple of chapters back and this has already cast all that aside to make it more interesting.

On the other hand there are to many charaters at the level of a demi-god on the side of akutski such as itachi, pein and madara. As well as other extremley powerful enemies like kisame, konan, sauske, suigetsu, jugo and lets not forget kabuto/orochimaru.

Naruto cannot beat them all even if he has the kyubi's power. This power of jiraiyas could be somthing to even the score some what. And with all these powerful enemies im starting to predict sauske joining forces with naruto to even it some more.

As for the 6th element its obviously space/time. The other 5 elements are related to nature which is why space/time wouldnt have been considered along side them til now. Clans suchs the naras and the akamichi clearly have an affinity somthing elemental yet shaddow and size-increase jutsu arn't elemental as naruto points out when training. This is because both use there affinity to space/time to manipulate the scale and shape of there shaddow/body. I havn't quite thought of how ino's jutsu relate but hers seems to be tied to space/time also.

coworlando
October 23, 2007, 02:35 PM
As for the 6th element its obviously space/time. The other 5 elements are related to nature which is why space/time wouldnt have been considered along side them til now. Clans suchs the naras and the akamichi clearly have an affinity somthing elemental yet shaddow and size-increase jutsu arn't elemental as naruto points out when training. This is because both use there affinity to space/time to manipulate the scale and shape of there shaddow/body. I havn't quite thought of how ino's jutsu relate but hers seems to be tied to space/time also.

Can we go back to the Hindan / Shika fight and the chakra blades that are manipulated using the elemetnal chakra? Shika used his shadow technique to manipulate those. We also have seen water clones and shadow clones in the series. I seriously think that Shadow is being factored into this since it has been brought up so many time but never fully explained.

jerger
October 23, 2007, 02:41 PM
my one argument against space/time as an element is due to the buddhist tones of the storyline... in buddhism space and time are not really something real, in fact they are concepts humans create or attach themselves to.

some tibetan buddhist lamas use to meditate, going beyond space/time (i dont want to argue/explain) what I mean is.... they don't really see the major difference between 1 year and 1 million years or miles.... its an attachment that we have for describing life

i don't know if what i wrote makes sense, don't take it literally

Sentou Ryoku
October 23, 2007, 02:49 PM
Kakashi was going to explain to Naruto what kind of chakra Shikamaru uses when he does kage mane when he asked about Chouji and Shikamaru but Yamato cut him off before he could explain.

TheChosenOne
October 23, 2007, 02:50 PM
The 6th element can be about space time. Since there are jutsu based on it (Didn't Sasuke use some kind of space jutsu after the fight with deidra. Someone earlier posted that all the 6 elements must have a corresponding nation. Ex Konoha - Fire, and so on. So could there be a 6th nation that matches the 6th element (I mean the major nations not the small ones)

Jiriaya is gonna beat pain around at least on this chapter, then I think we prolly see him using his rinnegan and making Jiraiya see that he trully is a "God".

jerger
October 23, 2007, 02:52 PM
Space and time are human words, there is only now.


sound and vibrations are a major theme in traditional religions (before japan and china became buddhist, they were heavily influenced by tibet, india and other southern asian countries)... thats where the "chakra" terms are more common and heavly used... its also where a great emphasis is placed on vibrations.

oro was a sound nation, mabye thats the secret?

chinese traditionally do not have lightning, they have metal, the other intelligent thought is the last chakra is metal:
lightning/wood/earth/fire/water/metal

the countries we have:
fire (makes sense)
earth (makes sense)
lightning (not in any earthly elemental systems, but its in our story, could this be the 6th?)
water country (makes sense)
wind country (air/makes sense)

we also had:
sound

we have seen tobi be translucent

time and space are human attachments to the world and are not elements. there is only now:)

however, space is often described in philosophy as sound (interchangable)

TheChosenOne
October 23, 2007, 03:02 PM
Lightning is already establishe as a element in Naruto World. It not a natural element in earth. Lightning is not the 6th, it's already part of the 5. I think the 6th element has something to do with mind. You need mind to be aware of nature and it's surroundings.
So the 6th element being mind and making them one with your mind does sound plausible (To me anyway). To master all the elements you must be connected to it, so what if after you master all the other 5, your mind becomes an element by itself.

Mattmang85
October 23, 2007, 03:05 PM
I know this is probably wrong and will get shot down... but maybe the sixth element is summoning.... I mean you use fire water earth wind and lightning jutsu but where does summoning fall in those categories?? Since this pein is summoning so much and at such a high level i think that the act of summoning is an element in a sense....... and sorry if someone already said this.

jerger
October 23, 2007, 03:07 PM
oh and in chackra systems the 6th or 7th gate is actually "cosmic" so the whole space/sound/vibrations thing could also be true

in most animes/video games psychic/mind is not an element, but is a chakra to defeat the 4 major elements.

to be honest, i think we might be interpreting the manga wrong

did he say the 6 chackras
or
did he say the 6 elements?

there is a major difference. chakra gates are not elements. the mind chakra gate is not an element, but is very powerful

The Don
October 23, 2007, 03:07 PM
Can we go back to the Hindan / Shika fight and the chakra blades that are manipulated using the elemetnal chakra? Shika used his shadow technique to manipulate those. We also have seen water clones and shadow clones in the series. I seriously think that Shadow is being factored into this since it has been brought up so many time but never fully explained.

I agree with you there, the knifes use elemental chakra yes but that does not necessasarly make shadow an element. My theory on it is that shadow is form in which the nara clans affinity to space/time manifests itself, same goes for the others who've displayed an affinity to space/time such as choji, ino and sai.

As for the shaddow clones i think thats further evidence to prove my theory. The Shadow clones obviously arn't made of a shadow since they have fully functioning bodies which even include chakra circulatory systems. These are clearly a form of space manipulation, most likley created by a member of the nara clan or another shadow user which would be where it got its name.

TheChosenOne
October 23, 2007, 03:19 PM
We have space, void, ying yang, mind as the possilbe candidates for the 6th element.

Space - Does summoning use some sort of space jutsu, since your bringin the animal from another dimmension (That what's happen right?)

Void - means nothing, it empty so not sure if this is an element

Ying Yang - this is has to do with a human side of behaviour doesn't it. Evil-Good, LIght- Darkeness (Well not behavior but you know what I mean)

Mind - makes the most sense to me since you need it to intepret the other 5. To be aware of it's power and making one with yourself.(Dunno maybe it's crap)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element

In this wikipedia aricle about the classical elements. I came across Aether.
Aether - is a substance that fills the region above the terrestrial Sphere. It is said that it's heavenly and not of this world.

Fortisdiablos
October 23, 2007, 03:47 PM
Ying and Yang seems like the most plausible candidate. Jutsu like Kage Mane seem like they would be based on ying and yang/light and dark.

coworlando
October 23, 2007, 03:52 PM
Kakashi was going to explain to Naruto what kind of chakra Shikamaru uses when he does kage mane when he asked about Chouji and Shikamaru but Yamato cut him off before he could explain.

That is why I still think this is going to come up in the story again. Since the fight with the guy from the hidden mist with Haku (whose name is slipping me) we learned that shadow clones are not the main type. Since he used a water clone. Shadow has some type of affinity. May not play a part in any of this but it has been set to come up in the story again.

jerger
October 23, 2007, 03:55 PM
aether has several interpretations:

1, it is used to describe "space" not "outer space" but all of the universe all together, also referred to as "cosmic" or "celestial"

so this leads to many other subtopics:
aether is heavenly/god/cosmos

aether is space, sound travels through space, this creates vibrations, the world is vibration (look into hindu or northern indian religions for this one)

aether is void (space is void too)

if you were to have yin and yang of space you would have:
space, with particles that allows sound to travel through
space, without particles, that does not allow sound to travel through, but light does

now how can tobi be void (empty) yet still reflect light (not absorb it like a black hole), he is a tricky one!

Serg3
October 23, 2007, 03:56 PM
We have space, void, ying yang, mind as the possilbe candidates for the 6th element.

Space - Does summoning use some sort of space jutsu, since your bringin the animal from another dimmension (That what's happen right?)

Void - means nothing, it empty so not sure if this is an element

Ying Yang - this is has to do with a human side of behaviour doesn't it. Evil-Good, LIght- Darkeness (Well not behavior but you know what I mean)

Mind - makes the most sense to me since you need it to intepret the other 5. To be aware of it's power and making one with yourself.(Dunno maybe it's crap)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element

In this wikipedia aricle about the classical elements. I came across Aether.
Aether - is a substance that fills the region above the terrestrial Sphere. It is said that it's heavenly and not of this world.

Aether is the same thing as Void, just different translations :). It's a little deceptive since it's very different from our current connotation of the word, which is why your description of it is off and you were a little confused. The Void (Classical Element) article on wikipedia redirects to the Aether (Classical Element) article. The description of Void on the Classical Elements (Japanese Philosophy) page matches the description of Aether too.

Mattmang85
October 23, 2007, 04:42 PM
Does anyone else think that the ability to summon might be an "element" in the sense of chakra?? I mean only certain people have been able to summon in the series so far so its not like just anyone can do it. Wether the summoning is a space element or an element on its own...

TheChosenOne
October 23, 2007, 05:06 PM
Then that would mean almost all the character can use it the 6th element if it was summon. Kishi would not do that, the 6th element is prolly only for pain to use.

supfoo214
October 23, 2007, 05:09 PM
It would be quite sad to see some/all these fiercely argued theories proven wrong come Thursday/Friday...

I'll be less bold here. I predict Jiraiya will use the rasengan :).

TheChosenOne
October 23, 2007, 05:59 PM
Did Jiraiya also fail in completing the Rasengan. We know Kakashi did and the fourth didnt have enought time.

narutokuro
October 23, 2007, 06:05 PM
Did Jiraiya also fail in completing the Rasengan. We know Kakashi did and the fourth didnt have enought time.

The 4th created the rasengan but it was unfinished. He probably didn't care anyway. His flash step was his bread and butter. They hyped up that move like its the greatest but in the naruto world there are people like orochimaru who can climb out of his own mouth and no one questions that its not weird! People expect wild justus. The rasengan is no better than any other justu and jiraiya uses it b/c its a nice move that no one expects.

TheChosenOne
October 23, 2007, 06:09 PM
I don't think that he didn't care. He created the jutsu after three years. Rasenga is a very good jutsu. You can keep creating more powerful version of the justu. It doesn't require hand seals. Come on what jutsu can beat that. I think minato would've finished it, if the kyuubi didn't show up.

As for the next chapter, Expect Jiraiya to go all out and prove that he is indeed the most powerful sannin as well as the most powerful in Naruto. (I think so, we have not seen anything from pain, until then Jiriaya is the most powerful person in Naruto.)

AngryChubbs
October 23, 2007, 06:33 PM
i doubt jiraya is most powerful...but he will definetly make pain at least make a hand seal. and i dont want him to die...but i do wish he tought naruto something during their training sesion

Dice
October 23, 2007, 06:58 PM
Mhh I recently thought about "that" jutsu being the "hermit jutsu". Like the rasengan is a jutsu which was developed by the 4th and was handed down to the posterity, the "hermit jutsu" is probably something Jiraiya developed by himself. Maybe he want this jutsu to outlive after his death and therefore thought it to Naruto(particulary because he uses frogs too).
Maybe this jutsu is quite dangerous (for the person who uses it or people around) or it's still incomplete (or both).
I can imagine that Jiraiya puts Pein in a quite dangerous situation in which he might lose a body or something else. Than after a heavy fight Pein manages to defeat Jiraiya while saying something like: "this jutsu is quite strong but it isn't perfect and therefore it wasn't meant to devestate a god. After all you are still a human, sensei!". Before he can kill him Jiraiya answers: "...but the nine-tails your want so desperately knows it and he will master it. He will even complete the rasengan, a jutsu even you couldn't complete!"
Ohh I'm already fantasizing XD

cgloki
October 23, 2007, 07:12 PM
Pein and Jiraiya go toe to toe for several chapters.
Jiraiya wins.. everyone cheers!
Another Pein body shows up and finishes off Jiraiya... everyone cries.
Pein takes Jiraiya's body as a replacement for the one lost.

Naruto has to fight Jiraiya later.

GAT-X252
October 23, 2007, 07:20 PM
Jiraiya would show his real power, but at the end, Pain would kick his old ass.

bannik
October 23, 2007, 07:56 PM
Pein and Jiraiya go toe to toe for several chapters.
Jiraiya wins.. everyone cheers!
Another Pein body shows up and finishes off Jiraiya... everyone cries.
Pein takes Jiraiya's body as a replacement for the one lost.

Naruto has to fight Jiraiya later.

I love it, lets do what he said

TheChosenOne
October 23, 2007, 08:04 PM
That would be a very good story line. Naruto fighting Jiraiya would be awesome.

I do believe he taught naruto very powerful jutsu. Remember tsunade said that Jiraiya crammed him full of power. Maybe Jiraiya told naurto that only use the jutsu someone very powerful come (someone like pain)

Now i know what you are thinking what about all the akatsuki members like kakuzu and deidra and itachi. Jiraiya prolly told him that those member are considered weak accoring to the Akatsuki leader (Just raw speculation)

Holland
October 23, 2007, 08:24 PM
Prediction:
Pein has mastered consciousness (the 6th element) and is toying with the toad-sage, slowing raising his power just enough to win. He wants his old teacher to realize that he cannot possibly touch even the shadow of victory.

Thoughts:
Here's what gets me...Pein has the ability to create jutsu like the absolute best, the founder of Narutoverse, create jutsu of all kinds, thats super-power, now why does he answer to Madara? The sharingan is more powerful than the ultimate eye technique? You could see the look on Pein's face when Madara left after talking to him, he hates him, and on top of that Madara seemed to teese Pein about Naruto's power and killing Kukuzu's three hearts at once, mocking him.

Long term prediction:
Naruto learns his fathers "flash" technique and has his kage-bushins deliver the payload of his uber jutsu a thousand times in one shot. (It is how his dad did it, except with partners throwing kunai and he probably used regular rasengan)

besiphilous
October 23, 2007, 08:32 PM
Im guessing Madara Uchiha had something to do with the three war orphan's fate after Jiraiya left them. Since Pein wasn't strong enough to defeat Madara at the time, he would most likely be manipulated by him with the sharingan. Even though Jiraiya doesn't have Rineggan, he is still willing to face pein. Madara would definately not hesitate to take control of Pein while he still has the chance. If people thought Jiraiya or the #rd hokage was wise/experienced/kicka$$, imagine how powerful Uchiha Madara is, who is older then them. Can't wait to see what Madara has in store for us all! My take on Madara's ability?

-Madara can instantly warp himself a second back in time with his sharingan, thus, the opponent has to space himself away from Madara at least 1 second away or he is screwed. Remember Kakashi's warp jutsu with his Sharingan?

Mattmang85
October 23, 2007, 08:33 PM
Then that would mean almost all the character can use it the 6th element if it was summon. Kishi would not do that, the 6th element is prolly only for pain to use.

if its something only pein could use how would jiriya even know of it and know that he mastered it... plus he didnt say that pein was the only one that could use the 6th element, just that he mastered it.

ornis
October 23, 2007, 09:04 PM
Prediction:
Pein has mastered consciousness (the 6th element) and is toying with the toad-sage, slowing raising his power just enough to win. He wants his old teacher to realize that he cannot possibly touch even the shadow of victory.

Consciousness? I know this is a prediction, and you may have a gut feeling about it... but beyond my bull---why do you think consciousness is the 6th Element?


Thoughts:
Here's what gets me...Pein has the ability to create jutsu like the absolute best, the founder of Narutoverse, create jutsu of all kinds, thats super-power, now why does he answer to Madara? The sharingan is more powerful than the ultimate eye technique? You could see the look on Pein's face when Madara left after talking to him, he hates him, and on top of that Madara seemed to teese Pein about Naruto's power and killing Kukuzu's three hearts at once, mocking him.I simply like this point. And like others have said, the illustrious eye, Rin'negan, doesn't have to be the most powerful. It may cost too much of Pain's character to really use the Rin'negan. I just think humility is the best thing you can get from it. Pain's name says he's in denial to me (maybe he thinks he can limit what pain means to his own idea).

TheChosenOne
October 23, 2007, 09:20 PM
Well after Madara left didn't the rain stop or did it start. Well that can mean that he indeed does hate him and wants to kill him.

Ichigo
October 23, 2007, 09:38 PM
i am just interested to know the whole story of why tobi or madara being and dealing and wheeling with Pain and Akatsuki!! Who was the originator of the red clouded black cloaked crusaders???

I think Pain seems more scary than Madara..

Non-Life
October 23, 2007, 09:47 PM
Pein was my only hope there would be someone more sinister who doesn't have the Sharingan!

ornis
October 23, 2007, 09:57 PM
Do you think he's going to highly disappoint you >.>

Or continuously...

You're speaking in past tense... but you can mostly expect him to be a sad excuse for a villain. It's not like it's the end yet :tem

Holland
October 23, 2007, 10:09 PM
Consciousness? I know this is a prediction, and you may have a gut feeling about it... but beyond my bull---why do you think consciousness is the 6th Element?

It is the "life" factor, you have your five natural elements so its the only natural one left that ties to all of them, thus "unlocking your inner power", the becoming of "self-awareness" separated us from the animals and allowed us to dominate our surroundings and all the other animals (no matter thier size) . So he has "mastered his own consciousness" and has control in to parts of his emotional/physical/spiritual realms (minds eye type crap) that would normally remain autonomic and unaccessible. If you put yourself even close to that you'll give yourself a god complex of being ascended, but you wouldn't be in control even then, as the self, or "ID" would be running the show without you. lol, something like that...errr

Okia
October 23, 2007, 10:46 PM
ero-sennin can't win,. but he will not die in this battle,. not yet.

dark uchiha1
October 23, 2007, 10:53 PM
i predict jiraiya to overcome this summon vs summon battle then it will be ninjutsu vs ninjutsu battle.

fcchan
October 24, 2007, 01:32 AM
In naruto universe, space jutsu has already been established. It is seen recently from Kakashi's use of mangekyou sharingan. To establish space as 6th element is plausible because space cannot be the composite of other 5.
In Narutoverse, we have seen shadow element/jutsu, have wood element/jutsu, we have blood element/jutsu, bone element/jutsu, ice elements, stone, rain, sand etc etc (heck we even have meteorite element in one of the fillers) but those are combination of 5 basic elements. Chakra itself is not element they represent potentiality of energy. On it's own without seal and control, chakra is useless and does not work.
Sound jutsu require at least air element to exist. Sound are mechanical waves and cannot travel through vacuum. Space exist with or without vacuum.
Summons is not a *basic* element but the summons can manipulate these elements.
So far we have not seen a light jutsu although darkness jutsu have been used once by the
3rd Hokage.

Audition
October 24, 2007, 02:39 AM
Aether is teh 6th element in wiki -_-

ichimatsu
October 24, 2007, 04:57 AM
jiraya summuming gona make pein made and pein will bring his strangest summuning too, but jiraya hermit will difite peins summmun. after that pein will change his bod to a ninjutsu style body, and will beat jiraya.
but jiraya dethly injered will be saved by gamabounda and will head back to cononha and will die and have a great funural

SoulFury
October 24, 2007, 05:53 AM
Six elements, uh?

1. Wind
2. Fire
3. Water
4. Earth
5. Lightning

......6. Heart........CAPTAIN PLANEEEET XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

http://www.mikedidonato.com/wp-content/capplan.PNG

Well, I think We'll see a bit of fight between Jiraiya and Pain, but I suppose tis week Kishi finally return over Hebi team and Naruto team

ornis
October 24, 2007, 08:39 AM
It is the "life" factor, you have your five natural elements so its the only natural one left that ties to all of them, thus "unlocking your inner power", the becoming of "self-awareness" separated us from the animals and allowed us to dominate our surroundings and all the other animals (no matter thier size) . So he has "mastered his own consciousness" and has control in to parts of his emotional/physical/spiritual realms (minds eye type crap) that would normally remain autonomic and unaccessible. If you put yourself even close to that you'll give yourself a god complex of being ascended, but you wouldn't be in control even then, as the self, or "ID" would be running the show without you. lol, something like that...errr

Thank god you said that. Makes sense to me. Period. I've said before how Pain can't just walk around spiritually strong if he's possessed, whether supernaturally or by himself---he's but an animal or robot to some sad motion---id, id, id. He needs to be in control, Pain can't convincingly be any where near self-aware if he blacks out like Nagato and instinctively saves others or saves self.

Thank you so many times over. By the way, do you have any resources? Not for me, but to help put a period to the point. How did you come to the conclusion that Mind can be an element when mostly it's considered chakra? I know all the elements are interpreted as elemental chakra in the manga... but sometimes, it doesn't feel like that evidence suffices for... but you know what... eh, forget it. I'm taking it; doesn't mean everybody else wants to.

jerger
October 24, 2007, 09:04 AM
bbeeeeeeeeeeep nope!

I don't think its this guys....

mastering your consciousness is impossible if your a dick.

kaylee
October 24, 2007, 10:13 AM
Here's what gets me...Pein has the ability to create jutsu like the absolute best, the founder of Narutoverse, create jutsu of all kinds, thats super-power, now why does he answer to Madara? The sharingan is more powerful than the ultimate eye technique? You could see the look on Pein's face when Madara left after talking to him, he hates him, and on top of that Madara seemed to teese Pein about Naruto's power and killing Kukuzu's three hearts at once, mocking him.


Good observations. I didn't pick up on Pain's feeling of "hate" towards Madara, but on a reread, I can see what you're talking about. And there was Konan's ominous line at the end of the chapter : "The sky cries again. Pain... you..."

Maybe Madara is blackmailing Pain somehow... he has a hold on something that Pain actually still cares about (Konan? Yahiko?) and is forcing Pain to cooperate.

Or it could just be that Madara and Pain are working together towards a mutual goal, and Pain is just annoyed that Madara's bossing him around. But I think I like the first theory better.


It is the "life" factor, you have your five natural elements so its the only natural one left that ties to all of them, thus "unlocking your inner power", the becoming of "self-awareness" separated us from the animals and allowed us to dominate our surroundings and all the other animals (no matter thier size) . So he has "mastered his own consciousness" and has control in to parts of his emotional/physical/spiritual realms (minds eye type crap) that would normally remain autonomic and unaccessible. If you put yourself even close to that you'll give yourself a god complex of being ascended, but you wouldn't be in control even then, as the self, or "ID" would be running the show without you. lol, something like that...errr

Nice thoughts. I like this theory. I think his rinnegan allows him to gain complete mastery over this element, but I still think others must use it to some degree as well. (Jiraiya was able to teach it to him, anyway). It could be the basis for medical ninjutsu and ino's mind transfer, as well as others.