Is Zaraki Kenpachi permanently in Shikai or not?

[TheChosenOne]

There has been a lot of arguments and theory why Zaraki's zanpakto is not shikai/ is shikai.
The manga/anime does not come right out at say that Zaraki has Shikai/ No shikai.

The two instances where his shikai is talked about is. :

When Ichigo boasted that he could use his sword to beat Zaraki. Zaraki said "this is my swords true form" Zaraki never used the word Shikai to describe the sword true form.

The Second instance happened when Yourichi was telling Ichigo about bankai. When Yourichi says that Ichigo's Zanpak is a full time sword, he says "Like Zaraki Kenpachi".
But Yourichi does not agree nor disagree with Ichigo

Discuss your opinion and please have some evidence to back your theory/opinion.

Any body with authorization, please delete the word Bankai from my thread, since this post is not a discussion for that.
changed the title to fit the thread better ;)

[JioFreed666]

I want to know how Yourichi supports it she just gose to explain how shikai is not the highest power anyway Kenpachi from day one never listened to his sword and even if it is a reflection it dosen't want to be just used and toss like a napkin when a guy has a bit of the rosy palm

[akward_silense]

for any shinigami to obtain shikai, he must first learn to comunicate with his zanpakuto and learn it's name. Even Ichigo had to meet with Zangetsu to obtain his shikai wether he leaves it in that state or not. At the end of Ichigo and Kenpachi's battle, Kenpachi tried to talk to his Zanpakuto, telling us that he has never spoken to it, therefore how could he even have a shikai to stay in in the first place. Kenpachi says that this is his swords true form because there is (for then anyway) no known state beyond that. Kanpachi had no shikai because his body was strong but not his mind and he was cool with not having it because he was THE strongest but then he met Ichigo so I think we can expect to see some growth out of our old friend and maybe a name and release.

[Neuroff]

The databook says that Kenpachi's zanpakutou is in Shikai. You can't go against that.

[JioFreed666]

for any shinigami to obtain shikai, he must first learn to comunicate with his zanpakuto and learn it's name. Even Ichigo had to meet with Zangetsu to obtain his shikai wether he leaves it in that state or not. At the end of Ichigo and Kenpachi's battle, Kenpachi tried to talk to his Zanpakuto, telling us that he has never spoken to it, therefore how could he even have a shikai to stay in in the first place. Kenpachi says that this is his swords true form because there is (for then anyway) no known state beyond that. Kanpachi had no shikai because his body was strong but not his mind and he was cool with not having it because he was THE strongest but then he met Ichigo so I think we can expect to see some growth out of our old friend and maybe a name and release.

Thank you for explainning that but these guys want to believe just because Ichigo an experienced Shinigami thinks that Kenpachi's was already in Shikai, and thing that Yourichi back that up and that it's solidfited in a data book which was co written with tite

[akward_silense]

*grumbles and lowers head in shame* I'm apparently not aware of this data book you speak of.............I thought I had a good argument though.........

[JioFreed666]

The databook says that Kenpachi's zanpakutou is in Shikai. You can't go against that.

I can if it original said in the manga that it requires that you know your zanpakutos name which is said repeatedly through out the manga before bankai is introduced
[hr]

*grumbles and lowers head in shame* I'm apparently not aware of this data book you speak of.............I thought I had a good argument though.........

Don't worry the canonical standing of that book is under question since it appears to be co writtened when it's a known fact that tite dose his own story

[Neuroff]

I can if it original said in the manga that it requires that you know your zanpakutos name which is said repeatedly through out the manga before bankai is introduced
Repeatedly? I only see Yoruichi saying it in chapter 127. She doesn't even say you need to know its name. "You need communication and synchronization with your soul cutter to achieve the initial release."

Then there is specific evidence that Kenpachi's zanpakutou is in shikai in chapters 109 and 120.

Chapter 109 page 17:
Kenpachi: This is the only form of my sword. I didn't put any seal on it.

Having no seal on a zanpakutou means that it is released, and you can see that Ichigo knows this from what he says in chapter 120.

Chapter 120 page 7:
Yoruichi: Have you ever noticed that your Zangetsu is always in its released form?
Ichigo: Really? So it's like Kenpachi's Soul Cutter?


Don't worry the canonical standing of that book is under question since it appears to be co writtened when it's a known fact that tite dose his own story
Where did you get that from? Even IF someone helped write parts of the databook, Kubo would not just release it without even looking at what had been written. If Kenpachi's zanpakutou wasn't released, it would say that in the databook.

[JioFreed666]

Repeatedly? I only see Yoruichi saying it in chapter 127. She doesn't even say you need to know its name. "You need communication and synchronization with your soul cutter to achieve the initial release."

Then there is specific evidence that Kenpachi's zanpakutou is in shikai in chapters 109 and 120.

Chapter 109 page 17:
Kenpachi: This is the only form of my sword. I didn't put any seal on it.

Having no seal on a zanpakutou means that it is released, and you can see that Ichigo knows this from what he says in chapter 120.

Chapter 120 page 7:
Yoruichi: Have you ever noticed that your Zangetsu is always in its released form?
Ichigo: Really? So it's like Kenpachi's Soul Cutter?


Where did you get that from? Even IF someone helped write parts of the databook, Kubo would not just release it without even looking at what had been written. If Kenpachi's zanpakutou wasn't released, it would say that in the databook.

alright let's go down the list and explain this
First point he dosen't need to be syncoed with his for the simple fact he uses brute force to cut his enemy plus centering his reitsu into his sword but that dosen't require synco like it dose for ichigo which against some one who's trained as hard as Kenpachi that's fight countless enemies with zanpakuto he would develop something along the lines of Iron skin

Chapter 109 page 17: this is my swords ONLY form
meaning no higher no lower and since he can remember that has been his only form

chapter 120
she dosen't response just kept going with her lecture and if your telling me that ichigo knows more then yourichi you can get the hell out now because remember learning bankai in 3 days instead of 10 years is hard to teach and remember ichigo was actually late when he finally finished his training

Some people don't check it's called misplace trust and some people believe fans won't make big deals of small facts

[_ATMA]

alright let's go down the list and explain this
Chapter 109 page 17: this is my swords ONLY form
meaning no higher no lower and since he can remember that has been his only form


if i recall after ichigo and zaraki fight with each other and zarki is laying there looking at his broken zanpaktu and hes laying there crying and talking to it asking it to tell him his name i think the only reason he says "my sword only form" is beacuse hes just ignorant enough to think of that i but that view of his the "only" form was before fighting ichigo and realizing the new level he can achieve just by knowing the name of his zanpaktu and working together with it instead of completely relying on his own power. after the fight he has a different view and opinion of the situation but the fact remains its a full time release

[Neuroff]

alright let's go down the list and explain this
First point he dosen't need to be syncoed with his for the simple fact he uses brute force to cut his enemy plus centering his reitsu into his sword but that dosen't require synco like it dose for ichigo which against some one who's trained as hard as Kenpachi that's fight countless enemies with zanpakuto he would develop something along the lines of Iron skin
I don't even see your point here. The fact is that Yoruichi never actually says you need to know the zanpakutou's name.


Chapter 109 page 17: this is my swords ONLY form
meaning no higher no lower and since he can remember that has been his only form
More like it's permanently released so it doesn't change forms any more.


chapter 120
she dosen't response just kept going with her lecture and if your telling me that ichigo knows more then yourichi you can get the hell out now because remember learning bankai in 3 days instead of 10 years is hard to teach and remember ichigo was actually late when he finally finished his training
1. Yoruichi would have said something if Ichigo was wrong.
2. Hard to teach? Yoruichi did nothing but keep the zanpakutou materialized. There was no teaching involved in it.
3. Ichigo late? He got bankai in TWO days.


Some people don't check it's called misplace trust and some people believe fans won't make big deals of small facts
Before I even get into this, where is your proof that there's a co-author?

[JioFreed666]

AH! this is why I personally don't like people who jump in late RENJI say it the first time he appears so I think people would have gotten the point back then

.........before you speak again look at what your saying then look at Ichigo going from Original broad katana to Hiltless cleaver to normal thickness long katana and back to the hiltless sword.......so don't tell me permanently release

1.Not everyone corrects people
2.She has to keep it materialized with her on reitsu and check his progress
3.I forgot Rukia's execution was moved up one day but he was still late

[Neuroff]

AH! this is why I personally don't like people who jump in late RENJI say it the first time he appears so I think people would have gotten the point back then

.........before you speak again look at what your saying then look at Ichigo going from Original broad katana to Hiltless cleaver to normal thickness long katana and back to the hiltless sword.......so don't tell me permanently release
??? Once Ichigo first gets Zangetsu into Shikai, it NEVER goes back into its sealed state. What are you talking about?


1.Not everyone corrects people
If Kubo wanted people to know Zaraki wasn't actually in shikai, then yes, she would have said something.


2.She has to keep it materialized with her on reitsu and check his progress
And that has absolutely nothing to do with teaching.


3.I forgot Rukia's execution was moved up one day but he was still late
Tell me how finishing something in 2 days that's supposed to take three days is late?

And bring out a source that shows that the databook was co-written by another author.

[JioFreed666]

??? Once Ichigo first gets Zangetsu into Shikai, it NEVER goes back into its sealed state. What are you talking about?
I'm talking about once it goes to bankai and if kenpachi's is supposedly in permanently shikai why can ICHIGO goes from shikai and higher then back if permanently suppose to be stuck in an unreleased state meaning ichigo should be permently stuck in bankai or not be able to go bankai at all



If Kubo wanted people to know Zaraki wasn't actually in shikai, then yes, she would have said something.
HE kubo tite is a dude and because he doesn't care as much as people like Musashi (Naruto's maker) to mention facts like before unless he's asked the question because everyone wanted to know why zombie powder was stopped...



And that has absolutely nothing to do with teaching.
Okay teaching wasn't the right words to say "helping the process more then anyone else who was an ally at the moment would" is the right term


Tell me how finishing something in 2 days that's supposed to take three days is late?
it's suppose to take 10 years but still he was late on being there before rukia's execution started which is his original promise


And bring out a source that shows that the databook was co-written by another author.
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5872/databooksouls024025lu3.png
clearly says Morita Masakazu on bonus track showing that there was at least one co author

[Neuroff]

I'm talking about once it goes to bankai and if kenpachi's is supposedly in permanently shikai why can ICHIGO goes from shikai and higher then back if permanently suppose to be stuck in an unreleased state meaning ichigo should be permently stuck in bankai or not be able to go bankai at all
She said they are permanently released. Shikai and bankai are both states of release. As Zangetsu never goes back into its sealed state, there is no argument here.


HE kubo tite is a dude and because he doesn't care as much as people like Musashi (Naruto's maker) to mention facts like before unless he's asked the question because everyone wanted to know why zombie powder was stopped...
She is obviously referring to Yoruichi, not Kubo. Kubo went out of his way to mention that Zaraki's sword was unsealed. So yes, he did mention it before he was asked.


Okay teaching wasn't the right words to say "helping the process more then anyone else who was an ally at the moment would" is the right term
And this has nothing to do with anything.


it's suppose to take 10 years but still he was late on being there before rukia's execution started which is his original promise
He got there before Rukia was executed, he wasn't late.


http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5872/databooksouls024025lu3.png
clearly says Morita Masakazu on bonus track showing that there was at least one co author
Lol... that part of the databook is called "TALK OF BLEACH." It's obviously a conversation/interview between Morita Masakazu and Kubo Tite. You can't have a talk with nobody. If Morita Masakazu was a co-author, he wouldn't only be credited for that one section.

[JioFreed666]

She said they are permanently released. Shikai and bankai are both states of release. As Zangetsu never goes back into its sealed state, there is no argument here. you just just proved me right if you say it never gose back to is sealead



She is obviously referring to Yoruichi, not Kubo. Kubo went out of his way to mention that Zaraki's sword was unsealed. So yes, he did mention it before he was asked.....she says she when she mentions Kubo.....and Kenpachi has no idea okay untill next chapter we know NOTHING cause he knew nothing about his own blade untill after except it was tool to help him kill



And this has nothing to do with anything.because she was bring up that I said "teacher"



He got there before Rukia was executed, he wasn't late. key word in there "started" which even rukia rags on him for being late




Lol... that part of the databook is called "TALK OF BLEACH." It's obviously a conversation/interview between Morita Masakazu and Kubo Tite. You can't have a talk with nobody. If Morita Masakazu was a co-author, he wouldn't only be credited for that one section.do you have the book to prove it? because you noticed on the part where it's talking about the art one the very left upper corner box "Kubo tite sensei" only mentioning his name there beside the "talk of bleach" section which makes me believe this isn't even written by him at all because why would you call yourself sensei that that seems alittle cocky for a Japaneses person

[Neuroff]

you just just proved me right if you say it never gose back to is sealead
Never going back to sealed is the SAME as being permanently released. What are you smoking?


....she says she when she mentions Kubo.....and Kenpachi has no idea okay untill next chapter we know NOTHING cause he knew nothing about his own blade untill after except it was tool to help him kill
Can't even begin to see what you're trying to say.


key word in there "started" which even rukia rags on him for being late
Do EVERYTHING you're expected to do with LESS time than you should have, and you're late? Please.


do you have the book to prove it?
First page of Ju-Ni's Databook Translation. If that's not enough, download the raw. Kubo Tite is the ONLY name on the cover. Morita Masakazu is only credited for that one section. He is obviously not a co-author, which breaks your entire argument.

[JioFreed666]

Never going back to sealed is the SAME as being permanently released. What are you smoking?


Can't even begin to see what you're trying to say.


Do EVERYTHING you're expected to do with LESS time than you should have, and you're late? Please.


First page of Ju-Ni's Databook Translation. If that's not enough, download the raw. Kubo Tite is the ONLY name on the cover. Morita Masakazu is only credited for that one section. He is obviously not a co-author, which breaks your entire argument.
I'll let go of the first part untill next week


You said last post:
"She is obviously referring to Yoruichi, not Kubo. Kubo went out of his way to mention that Zaraki's sword was unsealed. So yes, he did mention it before he was asked."

.......I replied with what I said a reply above

then why the hell dose it to him on the credits page as Kubo tite sensei

[Neuroff]

I'll let go of the first part untill next week
If you're talking about the new chapter, his sword's form is still the same. It has POSSIBLY lost its jagged edges. That's not his zanpakutou being sealed, it's been repaired.


You said last post:
"She is obviously referring to Yoruichi, not Kubo. Kubo went out of his way to mention that Zaraki's sword was unsealed. So yes, he did mention it before he was asked."
It's not that hard to understand. Kubo is the author. Anything written in the manga comes from him.


.......I replied with what I said a reply above
You said he was late in his bankai training, which he wasn't.


then why the hell dose it to him on the credits page as Kubo tite sensei
Who cares? Kubo is the one who wrote the information in the databooks. That makes everything in it OFFICIAL.

[Ripht]

I have to say that zaraki isn't in shikai, it just doesn't make any sense for him to be in shikai, because he even said that his sword isn't his partner its just a tool (or something like that) and then he has never been able to learn its name even when he tried to.

So if the data book says he is always in shikai, then i'd have to say its wrong. the manga states that hes not in shikai and the databook says he is, but the databook is about the manga so how can it conridict what is stated in the manga. I would guess there is a typo in the databook

[akward_silense]

you know, we might find out more by looking at what urahara may have said when giving ichigo his hollow powers where he first talks to zangetsu and everything. There might be some information about shikai in that section there because urahara is the one who pushes ichigo to shikai, not yuroichi. I don't have any chapters that far back though and do not know where to look for them, nor do I know what chapters they were in but if anyone would maybe feel like looking into that, it might shed some more light on the subject.....or not.....maybe i'm just full of crap......who knows..........

[Zeus-Tails]

I'll clear this up.

As stated in the manga, yes both Kenpachi and Ichigo have their swords in their initial release all the time because they never knew (and in Ichigo and Kenpachi's case, their sword never had a release command so they cannot seal it up) how to seal it up. Normally, a shinigami seals it and to unseal it, they use say a command + the name of the zanpakutoh.

This saying not only releases the sword, but it also activates that zanpakutoh's shikai attack. Not knowing the zanpakutoh's name makes it so you don't know how to seal your sword or use it's shikai attack.

Before Ichigo learned Zangetsu's name...
-Ichigo couldn't seal or unseal his sword
-Ichigo's zanpakutoh was just a blade that was hindering his max. power
-Ichigo couldn't use Zangetsu's shikai attack

After learning Zangetsu's name, the above points were cleared up. The first point is irrelevant since Ichigo's blade is special in that it cannot be sealed from shikai form, so it doesn't have a release command.

IMO, having your sword in the initial released state is only the FIRST part of shikai. The second part of shikai, IMO, is knowing the sword's name. By doing that, you get to use your max. power (in shikai) and use that sword's special shikai attack. Ichigo's shikai attack is Getsuga Tensho (and in his upgraded forms, it's the same attack, only stronger).

Now, what people on this forum are implying when they say "Kenpachi doesn't have shikai yet" is that Kenpachi hasn't achieved the SECOND part of shikai. So you can say Kenpachi hasn't completed his shikai. He has the first part of it being in shikai form (this is just because, like Ichigo, Kenpachi's special type of sword doesn't have a release command and it cannot be sealed), but he doesn't know the name, so he cannot fulfill the second part which will make him go to his TRUE max power and give him his sword's specific shikai attack (I can't wait to see what that attack is and I hope it's not a flash or rainbows and ponies).

Does that clear things up?

[Neuroff]

I have to say that zaraki isn't in shikai, it just doesn't make any sense for him to be in shikai, because he even said that his sword isn't his partner its just a tool (or something like that) and then he has never been able to learn its name even when he tried to.

So if the data book says he is always in shikai, then i'd have to say its wrong. the manga states that hes not in shikai and the databook says he is, but the databook is about the manga so how can it conridict what is stated in the manga. I would guess there is a typo in the databook
The databook AND the manga say his zanpakutou are in shikai. There really is no argument against it.


Now, what people on this forum are implying when they say "Kenpachi doesn't have shikai yet" is that Kenpachi hasn't achieved the SECOND part of shikai. So you can say Kenpachi hasn't completed his shikai. He has the first part of it being in shikai form (this is just because, like Ichigo, Kenpachi's special type of sword doesn't have a release command and it cannot be sealed), but he doesn't know the name, so he cannot fulfill the second part which will make him go to his TRUE max power and give him his sword's specific shikai attack (I can't wait to see what that attack is and I hope it's not a flash or rainbows and ponies).

Does that clear things up?
That's not what they're saying at all. I'm sure nobody thinks that Kenpachi can actually use his shikai's abilities. People think that he is using an unreleased sword and his zanpakutou will change when he learns its name, which is completely wrong.

[Ripht]

The thing with ichigo is that we have never seen his first fully sealed form. Because he was using rukia's power not his, so he just had his sword but not all of his power inside it but its possible that his sword with his power would have looked different. And when he learnt the name of his sword he got what we all think is his shikai and that he is now unable to seal it. Maybe he can't seal it because he has a huge amount of spiritual power just like zaraki, so it is possible that because of the huge amount of spiritual power that zaraki has that the seal on his sword was broken and can't be reformed so he is always in shikai form but without the shikai power because he doesn't know the name of his sword.

Another thing struck me as i re read the chapter were they were fighting eachother. We know that zaraki wants a rematch and will do anything to beat ichigo but ichigo said in chapter 106 (or somewhere around there) that zaraki could never beat him because he always fought alone, so zaraki has probably been trying to learn the name of his sword.

Also in that chapter when the chapter ended zaraki's blade was broken, but as we saw it now appears to be fully reformed. This has happened to ichigo at least twice now, the first time he fixed it by learning his swords name and getting a new sword and then the second time he trusted in his sword and it repaired itself. I have seen no other way that zaraki's sword could have repaired itself other then zaraki learning the name of his sword at some point.

Wow that took a while to type. but please read it all. and give me feedback

[bax]

Hmm.. there's no doubt that Kenpachi's Zanpakutou is in shikai mode, just as Zangetsu. It's stated in the Databook, written by Kubo Tite himself. So, it's legit.

A bit of translation from Page 258 concerning this matter (thanx to Esponer).

Due to the owner's spiritual force, these Zanpakutous take on their "initial release" form at all time. Ichigo's as well as Kenpachi's Zanpakutou belong to this group.

Shikai means initial release.


In that, it's also implies that the spiritual force of these two is too great that the Zanpakutou can't be in their sealed state because they can't hold/accommodate the large spiritual force.

Remember what happened to Ichigo after his first time going against a Menos? He leaked his spiritual force so greatly, that he can't contain it anymore. At that time, he still doesn't have BanKai yet (which in this case, supposed to be able to hold and channel a larger spiritual force).

[Zeus-Tails]

Kenpachi and Ichigo's swords are in shikai form because they are special sword which cannot be sealed and therefore have no command.

I know when I say something like "Kenpachi reached shikai," what I am saying is that he knows his swords name and has achieved FULL shikai (IMO) because he would be able to use his max power (in shikai form) and use his shikai attacks. I'm not totally sure what everyone else meant when they make that statement, though ^^

[Raimaru]

The thing with ichigo is that we have never seen his first fully sealed form. Because he was using rukia's power not his, so he just had his sword but not all of his power inside it but its possible that his sword with his power would have looked different. And when he learnt the name of his sword he got what we all think is his shikai and that he is now unable to seal it. [...]

Unfortunately, this is wrong. Ichigo had Zangetsu in his sealed form - for about 2 minutes. Then Urahara sliced it into pieces, forcing Ichigo to use Zangetsu's shikai form.

Kenpachi and Ichigo's swords are in shikai form because they are special sword which cannot be sealed and therefore have no command.

I know when I say something like "Kenpachi reached shikai," what I am saying is that he knows his swords name and has achieved FULL shikai (IMO) because he would be able to use his max power (in shikai form) and use his shikai attacks. I'm not totally sure what everyone else meant when they make that statement, though ^^
I hope I understood you the right way.
Kenpachi's sword technically is already in shikai state, but since Kenpachi knows NOTHING specific about it, he can't use any of its powers. Like Zangetsu also would be far more useless if Ichigo does not know how to use Getsuga Tensho.

[Ripht]

I hope I understood you the right way.
Kenpachi's sword technically is already in shikai state, but since Kenpachi knows NOTHING specific about it, he can't use any of its powers. Like Zangetsu also would be far more useless if Ichigo does not know how to use Getsuga Tensho.

Bingo hit it on the nail. Thats basically it, its the apperance of the shikai but with the power of the sealed version.

[matrice]

The thing with ichigo is that we have never seen his first fully sealed form. Because he was using rukia's power not his,
Actually we have seen it just after he emerged from the hole in the ground, during his training with Urahara, then he achieved shikai. I firstly thought that Kempachi's sword wasn't in his shikai state, since Ichigo said that he was glad, because so it couldn't become stronger (and he had still to know of the Bankai release). Well, this was what I thought before, but after reading of the databook, I gues that I simply got it all wrong. If Tite wrote in a book that Kempachi0s sword is in shikai state, no one can contradict that fact. He is the one who is actually writing the manga, dudes, and even if you can find more contardictions in the manga, if he stated that clearly in a book it's the truth.

[bax]

Unfortunately, this is wrong. Ichigo had Zangetsu in his sealed form - for about 2 minutes. Then Urahara sliced it into pieces, forcing Ichigo to use Zangetsu's shikai form.

To my observation, I came up with a thought about this (this is just a personal opinion, nothing officially stated anywhere about this).

The sword that Ichigo got after Rukia struck her sword through Ichigo is indeed Zangetsu. It couldn't be Rukia's sword since it's no where similar to Rukia's Zanpakutou. I see it as Zangetsu's unreleased state. It has the shape of a normal unreleased Zanpakutou, only bigger in size, as stated many times (the latest was Grand Fisher 2.0 vs Isshin) that the size can vary (if uncontrolled) due to how large a Shinigami's spiritual force is.

Ichigo was still using the unreleased Zangetsu when Urahara first trained him, until he learned Zangetsu's name. We might wonder why Zangetsu moved to Shikai this time, even without a command. There are 3 things that might happened here:

1. Ichigo did say the command, just perhaps hidden from us, for future plot.

2. Perhaps all a Shinigami needs is the name of his/her Zanpakutou, not necessarily a command like "Howl, Zabimaru" (although not likely since everyone keeping to say the command words)

3. Perhaps there's a way around it by supplying a large spiritual force into it (since he already know Zangetsu's name, Zangetsu said there's a different between not knowing and knowing the name, perhaps it applies in this case too), a Zanpakutou might be forced to "evolve". This is not weird concerning it is Urahara, since Urahara also played his hand for that instant Bankai training by creating it, he might know one or two tricks about it.

Either way, since Zangetsu can't be sealed anymore, we won't see Ichigo saying the command again (if it exists) in real time, only in flashbacks.

But yup, that's just my personal observation. You might agree or disagree about it.

[Neuroff]

To my observation, I came up with a thought about this (this is just a personal opinion, nothing officially stated anywhere about this).

The sword that Ichigo got after Rukia struck her sword through Ichigo is indeed Zangetsu. It couldn't be Rukia's sword since it's no where similar to Rukia's Zanpakutou. I see it as Zangetsu's unreleased state. It has the shape of a normal unreleased Zanpakutou, only bigger in size, as stated many times (the latest was Grand Fisher 2.0 vs Isshin) that the size can vary (if uncontrolled) due to how large a Shinigami's spiritual force is.
This is completely true. I can't understand why so many people think Ichigo was using Rukia's zanpakutou.


Ichigo was still using the unreleased Zangetsu when Urahara first trained him, until he learned Zangetsu's name. We might wonder why Zangetsu moved to Shikai this time, even without a command. There are 3 things that might happened here:

1. Ichigo did say the command, just perhaps hidden from us, for future plot.

2. Perhaps all a Shinigami needs is the name of his/her Zanpakutou, not necessarily a command like "Howl, Zabimaru" (although not likely since everyone keeping to say the command words)

3. Perhaps there's a way around it by supplying a large spiritual force into it (since he already know Zangetsu's name, Zangetsu said there's a different between not knowing and knowing the name, perhaps it applies in this case too), a Zanpakutou might be forced to "evolve". This is not weird concerning it is Urahara, since Urahara also played his hand for that instant Bankai training by creating it, he might know one or two tricks about it.

Either way, since Zangetsu can't be sealed anymore, we won't see Ichigo saying the command again (if it exists) in real time, only in flashbacks.

But yup, that's just my personal observation. You might agree or disagree about it.
Renji actually released Zabimaru without saying the command in his fight with Byakuya. Byakuya even comments on it in chapter 140 on page 19. He says, "You released your soul cutter without calling it's name..." So there is at least one way to force release without saying a name or command.

[KyleUchiha]

Renji actually released Zabimaru without saying the command in his fight with Byakuya. Byakuya even comments on it in chapter 140 on page 19. He says, "You released your soul cutter without calling it's name..." So there is at least one way to force release without saying a name or command.

I thought once you achieved BanKai, you didn't have to say a command anymore?

But I do agree with you that Zaraki's sword is already in its initial release state.

[Ripht]

I thought once you achieved BanKai, you didn't have to say a command anymore?

But I do agree with you that Zaraki's sword is already in its initial release state.

I think that you can release your sword without calling its name when you've just achieved bankai, because you've just unlocked the full release and the power output is alot difference so it takes time to settle back down into its normal mode again so you can't fully seal it for a certain time peroid and releases can be used without the names.

If you know what i mean, like when you turn a tap on full and then quickly turn it off water will still come out for a couple of seconds, its kinda like that but the water takes longer for the water to stop.

[dreamzsai]

The Databook says Kenpachi's sword is a fulltime release, but how can that happen when he doesnt even know it's sword's name?
The Databook certainly needs something to backup what it has said, especially when we have some many other stuff pointing towards Zaraki not even having a Shikai.

1. When Ichigo mentions about that Zaraki is taking him lightly, stating that it's the reason he doesnt release, Zaraki states that his sword doesnt have a name, it doesnt have a sealed form, and that it is it's true form.
HOWEVER, what Zaraki said may not be the truth, and that can be interpreted in a few ways.

Doesnt Have a Name
> Zaraki doesnt knows it's name(It can have a form of release)
> It REALLY has no name(no ability to release?) but very unlikely or even impossible

Doesnt Have a Sealed Form
> Really doesnt have a Sealed Form(Full Time Release)
> Zaraki doesnt know that his sword is actually Sealed(has possible form(s) of release(s))

It is it's True Form
> Really is it's true form(full time release with no Bankai?)
> Zaraki doesnt know...again...about what his sword can do

2. After the fight with Ichigo, Zaraki tries to communicate with his sword, asking for it's name.
>This shows that Zaraki was just assuming what he has stated in his fight with Ichigo
>He believes that his sword actually has a hidden strength and a name(though we do not know whether it really does)

3.Ichigo states, Full Time Release sounds like Zaraki Kenpachi
> Ichigo is only saying so because of what he heard from Kenpachi
> It may thus be true or false depending whether Kenpachi was correct or wrong

4. Yoruichi states that Kenpachi is the only Captain to become one without having Bankai or even knowing it's sword's name
> The not knowing it's sword's name can mean that he doesnt know even Shikai
>Could also mean the sword is release without Kenpachi knowing the name(though i feel is unlikely)


Personally, i feel Kenpachi probably doesnt even have Shikai yet, even though the databook states that he is fulltime release, there are too much evidence or occurences in the anime/manga leading to the fact that he doesnt have one.
And i believe it would be nicer for Kenpachi to not even have Shikai and just using his sword in a sealed form
> cause it shows how much combat power he has
> Shikais give only a slight boost in power/ability and would be easier to be "given" to Kenpachi by Kubo
> If Kenpachi is fulltime release, the next stage would be Bankai, and if he really gains it, it might be pretty sick since Bankai gives huge powerups most of the time

Again, if Kubo wants to make the Databook statement a fact, he better have a good explanation to it.

[Neuroff]

I thought once you achieved BanKai, you didn't have to say a command anymore?

But I do agree with you that Zaraki's sword is already in its initial release state.
He never specifically says that, but that's probably it. I'm saying that if you can do it after getting bankai, there could be other ways too.


Personally, i feel Kenpachi probably doesnt even have Shikai yet, even though the databook states that he is fulltime release, there are too much evidence or occurences in the anime/manga leading to the fact that he doesnt have one.
And i believe it would be nicer for Kenpachi to not even have Shikai and just using his sword in a sealed form
> cause it shows how much combat power he has
> Shikais give only a slight boost in power/ability and would be easier to be "given" to Kenpachi by Kubo
> If Kenpachi is fulltime release, the next stage would be Bankai, and if he really gains it, it might be pretty sick since Bankai gives huge powerups most of the time

Again, if Kubo wants to make the Databook statement a fact, he better have a good explanation to it.
People keep saying name this, name that. I haven't actually seen a quote that says you need to know the name yet.

[kaitendragon]

Zaraki's Zanpaktou is in Shikai(initial release). just look at the color patter in the manga its black on white just like the Shikais of Ichigo,Renji,Urahara, and most of the other shikai stages. One characteristic of shikai in MOST cases is the black on white coloring and Zaraki's is black on white in the bank. Bye bye to all the theories of it not being in shikai =)

[_ATMA]

Ok guys here you go this is the page pertaining to Zaraki and his zanpaktu atm ive got my GF translating the page and ill let u know when she gets it to me


http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2603/140141nn8.th.png (http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=140141nn8.png)

erm it seems that image shack has lowered the original quality of the photo so here is a higher res version:

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2603/140141nn8.th.png (http://atomic.omegafusion.net/~atma/140-141.png)

[ttxdragon]

that is not the page containing the info on the zanpakutou.
the zanpakutou info is on page 258.

[_ATMA]

ah ic i was browsing through forums and happend across what and ppl saying that page about zaraki sadly i cant read japanese so i wouldnt know what the page says :P lol

also i am more then happy to host some pages and uploading what ever pics from the soul book as necessary just ask i would like to resolve this dispute lol


[hr]
here is page 258-259 in a lower res:

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3990/258259mm9.th.png (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=258259mm9.png)

high res:

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3990/258259mm9.th.png (http://atomic.omegafusion.net/~atma/258-259.png)

[kazuma_uzumaki]

I wonder..
remember in the soul society that one tool that allowed the physical manifestation of a zanpakuto?

I wonder if it would do anything for kenpachi if he were to try it

[_ATMA]

I wonder..
remember in the soul society that one tool that allowed the physical manifestation of a zanpakuto?

I wonder if it would do anything for kenpachi if he were to try it

to use it didnt u need at least some what of a synchronization with your zanpaktu to use it?

[matrice]

Renji actually released Zabimaru without saying the command in his fight with Byakuya. Byakuya even comments on it in chapter 140 on page 19. He says, "You released your soul cutter without calling it's name..." So there is at least one way to force release without saying a name or command.
Yes, but as it was already well explained in the manga, you must have acheved Bankai in order to do this. Byakuya recognized this fact exactly when he saw Renji do this.

[Dantrag]

Zaraki's Zanpaktou is in Shikai(initial release). just look at the color patter in the manga its black on white just like the Shikais of Ichigo,Renji,Urahara, and most of the other shikai stages. One characteristic of shikai in MOST cases is the black on white coloring and Zaraki's is black on white in the bank. Bye bye to all the theories of it not being in shikai =)

I think you need to read the manga again. After few of the very the first chapters of bleach the black and white-colouring (White for cutting edge, black for blunt edge) of the blade became a standard for both sealed and initial release zanpakutous. The colouring is nowhere near a valid proof of a sword being in shikai-state.

[Neuroff]

Yes, but as it was already well explained in the manga, you must have acheved Bankai in order to do this. Byakuya recognized this fact exactly when he saw Renji do this.
It actually isn't well explained at all, it's only implied that you can do this when you have obtained bankai. And I wasn't saying that Kenpachi was using the same method as Renji at all. I said that if there's one way to do it, there can be others.


I think you need to read the manga again. After few of the very the first chapters of bleach the black and white-colouring (White for cutting edge, black for blunt edge) of the blade became a standard for both sealed and initial release zanpakutous. The colouring is nowhere near a valid proof of a sword being in shikai-state.
Yeah, but the databook is.

[akatsuki27]

what bax said about ichigo's sword having always been zangetsu is the same thing i thought which is absolutely right, i mean, look at the hilt of his first sword, it's the same hilt or very similar to the one that isshin has on his sword which means ichigo, as far as the sword was concerned, was using his spiritual powers he got from his bloodline....shinketsu or something like that i think is what he is

and about zaraki, his sword is indeed in its released state simply because he has no seal on it....zaraki is either too stupid or too powerful or both to seal his sword....so, the fact that there's nothing to release, you can classify it as being in it's released state.....in actuality, his sword is already released because he can't seal it, but since he doesnt know its name then he cant use any sword attacks or communicate enough with it for the sword to be able to materialize (have it appear like zangetsu and zabimaru have)

it's sort of like he doesn't acknowledge the spirit inside his sword, at least not until he fought with ichigo

[Dantrag]

Yeah, but the databook is.

I know that, I was just pointing out that the black&white color isn't enough to identify any zanpakutou as a shikai or a sealed sword.

And just because the databook says that Kenpachi's sword is a released "shikai", that doesn't make it any less of a plothole when Kubo himself had set up an adamant rule for the shikais, that does not allow exeptions even if it was with a single person.

[Neuroff]

I know that, I was just pointing out that the black&white color isn't enough to identify any zanpakutou as a shikai or a sealed sword.

And just because the databook says that Kenpachi's sword is a released "shikai", that doesn't make it any less of a plothole when Kubo himself had set up an adamant rule for the shikais, that does not allow exeptions even if it was with a single person.
What, the whole "need to know the name" rule? It's not even directly written in the manga that you need to know your zanpakutou's name to obtain a shikai.

[radical3113]

yes,true,not directly written but u have to give the blade some sort of cammand word before it goes into shikai dont you?

[THETRUTH.com]

and about zaraki, his sword is indeed in its released state simply because he has no seal on it....zaraki is either too stupid or too powerful or both to seal his sword....so, the fact that there's nothing to release, you can classify it as being in it's released state.....in actuality, his sword is already released because he can't seal it, but since he doesnt know its name then he cant use any sword attacks or communicate enough with it for the sword to be able to materialize (have it appear like zangetsu and zabimaru have)

it's sort of like he doesn't acknowledge the spirit inside his sword, at least not until he fought with ichigo

Good post, akatsuki27. I think this is the most accurate interpretation of the evidence we have been shown. So the databook saying Zaraki's sword is a fulltime release is because what else type could it be if it has no other form. His sword probably wont change when Zaraki obtains the ability to use his shikai unless he somehow seals it.

[Alexis]

I'm probably wrong, but don't you need to know the name of your zanpaktou before it becomes shikai form? Like how Ichigo's sword changed?

[Lohnt]

In earlier posts, some people stated the exception is when you know bankai, you no longer need to say it's name.

[Neuroff]

I'm probably wrong, but don't you need to know the name of your zanpaktou before it becomes shikai form? Like how Ichigo's sword changed?
I don't see anywhere in the manga where it actually says that. People keep saying this, yet they never bring a quote that would prove it.

[hiropyro]

Ok a data book when put out only goes with what data is available at that time so for all they know that could change.. Kenpachi could not have it in SHikai yet they just went with what you guys are going with... we wont know until his battle against that dude XD -forgot his name-

[hollowdemon]

well in manga its difficult to see the difference but if u notice in anime the sword is completely different its not one side shaded black and one side white in anime its completely silver in just blade not a shikai mode. That states the fact that its not in shikai mode as of yet since all hes doing is use his enormous reiatsu and power headed self to fight for him

[MegaX]

well in manga its difficult to see the difference but if u notice in anime the sword is completely different its not one side shaded black and one side white in anime its completely silver in just blade not a shikai mode. That states the fact that its not in shikai mode as of yet since all hes doing is use his enormous reiatsu and power headed self to fight for him

The official data book, written by Kubo himself says that Zaraki's sword is always in Shikai. Kubo's word about his story is law.

Therefore we can deduce that Zaraki's sword = Shikai.

[hollowdemon]

well we wont know for sure if it is or not until the battle between him and nnoitra starts
im sure he'll reveal it sooner or later during the battle. im still going with no though sry for being a rebel to that kubo law book :D

[MegaX]

Well be a rebel if you want, but we do know for sure because Kubo said so.

[Splat]

ok, here's how i see the whole thing.

Ichigo is constantly in shikai for two reasons, the one that everyone keeps quoting, which is that he has too much spiritual power to seal his sword, and the second reason that noone has noticed, if he sealed his sword he would not be able to unseal it again because he never learned the release command, only the name. In the manga zangetsu tells ichigo his name and ichigo shouts the name and turns the hilt of the unreleased zangetsu into the released zangetsu that we see now, no release command. This is in chapter 67.

Zaraki is also a full time release, in chapter 109 he says i didn't put any seal on it, this is the true form of my sword, and then points out that even the strongest seal won#t do because he has too much spiritual pressure. There is no speculation about his sword being shikai or not, because he says himself that it is, and the fact that it also has a different shape than is usual for a zanpakutoh gives this away too. The only point that there can be speculation on is that unlike ichigo, he never learned the name of his sword, so it's not like he released it by learning the name and then couldn't seal it again. The only option i can see here is that at some point his spiritual power just became so high that his sword was forced to release itself to avoid being destroyed, since a released state is able to give out more spiritual power, so it was better able to channel out the huge power that was being poured into it. This means that his zanpakutoh acted on it's own to keep from being destroyed. Also i may be wrong but i don't think it has ever been stated that it is necessary to know your zanpakutohs name to have shikai, that is just the easiest way to release shikai, so my theory of overloading a zanpakutoh with power to release it could be correct. Just imagine pouring bankai level power into an unreleased zanpakutoh, the power has to go somewhere and once the zanpakutoh is full of power and releasing as fast as it can, the only other option for it is to become released.

Well that's how i see it anyway.

[noonethere]

Quite an interesting topic.
It reminds me of the inner fight between ichigo and his hollow when he fought against Zaraki. Zangetsu said something about giving Ichigo a nameless zanpaktou belonging to low level shinigami. Maybe Zaraki's refusal to acknowledge his zanpaktou spirit caused him to have such a sword which is already in its full form(and therefore cannot change form like the zanpaktou of other shinigami).

[AngryChubbs]

i have a theory...lol...(i have a dream...) sorry...
but yea, we all know that kenpachi has no name, it has been said before that he is nameless...and he gave himself the name of kenpachi which means omething but i dont remember exactly...something like the strongest, who knows...but my theory is what if like kenpachi...his sword doesn't have a name either. in the manga, he states that his sword has no name, and that it is constantly in shikai because of his ridiculous spirit pressure. what if that is completely true. i mean, the sword is supposed to mirror the individual and whatnot, so what if like kenpachi, it has no name and the only way kenpachi will ever achieve bankai is if he pumps all the spiritual pressure he can gather into his blade.
just a theory...i just figured i would put it here and see how people respond, and then maybe make a seperate thread.

[MegaX]

Or maybe, he needs to give it a name like he did for himself?

[Travis]

Didn't realize that thread was linking to this one just thought the text was different color, but to continue my point on the Kenpachi's shikai topic.

There doesn't have to be a single instance of someone saying that you must learn your zanpaktou's name to release it. It's pretty obvious you need to know it in all cases except for Kenpachi's case.

It's more implied that you need to know your zanpaktou's name to release it than Kenpachi's shikai is released. The fact that you have everyone else including arrancar using a name for their zanpaktou to release it is a pretty safe conclusion to make.

You're also ignoring the what Kenpachi says during his fight with Ichigo which totally turns everything about releases and seals upside down and is never really elaborated on.

Hell, Kubo can really write it anyway he wants at this point. He could show Kenpachi using the name of his zanpaktou and it transforming, or he could use the name and it not transform but some kind of new ability or new strength gained. For all we know it can be written that Kenpachi thought he had a shikai, hence why everyone thinks it now.

I think it's too wide open right now for any absolutes on the matter of his shikai. And a conversation about this topic will go nowhere fast as long as we haven't seen him use the name of his zanpaktou.

[Neuroff]

There doesn't have to be a single instance of someone saying that you must learn your zanpaktou's name to release it. It's pretty obvious you need to know it in all cases except for Kenpachi's case.
This is the only thing that people ever say, but there is absolutely no evidence to support it. The only person you ever see actually obtain shikai is Ichigo. What evidence is there that EVERY shinigami has learned their zanpakutou's name before it went into shikai.


It's more implied that you need to know your zanpaktou's name to release it than Kenpachi's shikai is released. The fact that you have everyone else including arrancar using a name for their zanpaktou to release it is a pretty safe conclusion to make.
Arrancar releases have absolutely nothing to do with shinigami releases.


You're also ignoring the what Kenpachi says during his fight with Ichigo which totally turns everything about releases and seals upside down and is never really elaborated on.
He already gives the explanation. His reiatsu is so high that sealing it would do nothing. So if his zanpakutou were ever sealed, it would just unseal because of his reiatsu.


Hell, Kubo can really write it anyway he wants at this point. He could show Kenpachi using the name of his zanpaktou and it transforming, or he could use the name and it not transform but some kind of new ability or new strength gained. For all we know it can be written that Kenpachi thought he had a shikai, hence why everyone thinks it now.
Kenpachi says it, Yoruichi confirms it, and it's in the databook. If it transformed, THAT would be a plothole.


I think it's too wide open right now for any absolutes on the matter of his shikai. And a conversation about this topic will go nowhere fast as long as we haven't seen him use the name of his zanpaktou.
The OFFICIAL databook says it's in shikai, so it IS in shikai. Knowing the name will very likely give him more power, but you cannot say that his zanpakutou is sealed.

[TheChosenOne]

There doesn't have to be a single instance of someone saying that you must learn your zanpaktou's name to release it. It's pretty obvious you need to know it in all cases except for Kenpachi's case.

Not really, since Zaraki is the exception. So unless Zaraki's sword is special I doubt you need to know the name of your sword to release. Shikai is just a release, there is no claim that you must know the name to release the sword. :)


It's more implied that you need to know your zanpaktou's name to release it than Kenpachi's shikai is released. The fact that you have everyone else including arrancar using a name for their zanpaktou to release it is a pretty safe conclusion to make.

Arrancar's sword are basically their hollow form manifested. So it's clear how they know their swords name. It's also pretty clear that you don't need the name to use the swords abilities. Since Ichigo used Getsuga many times before even learning it's name. :)


You're also ignoring the what Kenpachi says during his fight with Ichigo which totally turns everything about releases and seals upside down and is never really elaborated on.

All Kenpachi's said is that he did not put a seal on his sword, which is why it won't go back to it's normal form. Ichigo's zanpak can also be full time cuz he did not put any seal on it. :)


I think it's too wide open right now for any absolutes on the matter of his shikai. And a conversation about this topic will go nowhere fast as long as we haven't seen him use the name of his zanpaktou.

Well there are more evidence pointing to the fact that he has shikai than he doesn't. It's implied in the manga. Ichigo and Ken are compared heavily. The Data Books state it clearly (Kubo must have some involvement in them). :)

[Moki]

The sword that Ichigo got after Rukia struck her sword through Ichigo is indeed Zangetsu. It couldn't be Rukia's sword since it's no where similar to Rukia's Zanpakutou. I see it as Zangetsu's unreleased state. It has the shape of a normal unreleased Zanpakutou, only bigger in size, as stated many times (the latest was Grand Fisher 2.0 vs Isshin) that the size can vary (if uncontrolled) due to how large a Shinigami's spiritual force is.



This is completely true. I can't understand why so many people think Ichigo was using Rukia's zanpakutou.


A little off-topic but look at the hilt of Rukia sword and the sword Ichigo acquires in chapter 1. They are exactly alike. Ichigo simply has an enlarged version of Rukias so it's, imo, highly likely it's not his sealed version but simply Rukias sword coupled with either his own dormant one or his massive reiatsu.

[Neuroff]

A little off-topic but look at the hilt of Rukia sword and the sword Ichigo acquires in chapter 1. They are exactly alike. Ichigo simply has an enlarged version of Rukias so it's, imo, highly likely it's not his sealed version but simply Rukias sword coupled with either his own dormant one or his massive reiatsu.
The hilt actually is not exactly the same. This is Rukia's zanpakutou:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/1/42/

This is Ichigo's:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/1/52/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/31/15/

Ichigo's after he gets his powers back:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/66/08/

The design on the sides of their zanpakutou's are different, and you can see that Ichigo has the same zanpakutou after he gets his OWN shinigami powers back.

[Moki]

hm well I still think they look alike. But I can't explain why he had the same looking sword after Rukias powers was stripped from him. Can't really decide what to think now.. :S

[Neuroff]

They really are different. Rukia's design has 3 edges (coming out of one side) on the left and 2 curves on the right. Ichigo's design has 1 curve on the left and 3 edges (more like a pitchfork) on the right. This (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/31/15/) is the best view of Ichigo's zanpakutou.

[AngryChubbs]

i have to agree that they arent different, i mean the angle at which they are drawn distort the picture a little bit but thats unavoidable. but lets get back on the topic.

i personally think that ken is in shikai, but he cheated to get there by not knowing his zanpakuto's name. if he wasn't in shikai, then wouldn't yoruichi have said that he was the only person to make captain without shikai instead of saying without bankai. (if no shikai, then no bankai im assuming)

[TheChosenOne]

It's never stated in the manga that you must know the zanpak's name to achieve shikai. I think the conversation between Ichigo and Youruichi proves that Ken has shikai, since Ichigo says "like Zaraki Kenpachi". :)

[gigantor21]

In response to the whole "knowing the Zanpakuto's name" angle: wouldn't that be contradictory?

Ichigo got his Shikai AFTER learning Zangetsu's name. And a common theme for his growth has been getting to know Zangetsu better--he, Urahara, Hichigo, and Zangetsu himself have all stated that. Plus, Zaraki said he struggled with his lack of identity before having a name, and had lost sight of that until fighting Ichigo--which is why he wanted to know his sword's name after losing.

So forget about the requirements for a second. My question is, why would Kubo let him get around learning the name, when he's established that knowing the sword is a requirement for using it better?

[Quartz-pebble]

My question is, why would Kubo let him get around learning the name, when he's established that knowing the sword is a requirement for using it better?

Because he is a terrible, terrible storyteller.



Joking aside, I'm guessing he wouldn't? Zaraki will eventually (maybe this battle) yell out his Zanpukto's name and gain his shikai.

[TheChosenOne]

Ichigo got his Shikai AFTER learning Zangetsu's name. And a common theme for his growth has been getting to know Zangetsu better--he, Urahara, Hichigo, and Zangetsu himself have all stated that. Plus, Zaraki said he struggled with his lack of identity before having a name, and had lost sight of that until fighting Ichigo--which is why he wanted to know his sword's name after losing.

Well Ichigo is the only one to be revelead in the manga to get Shikai after knowing it's name. The other shinigami's could be the opposite, they may know the name after Shikai. Which would make Ichigo an exception. :)


So forget about the requirements for a second. My question is, why would Kubo let him get around learning the name, when he's established that knowing the sword is a requirement for using it better?

Is it stated somewhere that most of the popular shinigami's learned shikai after learning it's name. If not then what if they learned it after shikai, like Kenpachi, so that would not make him an exception but Ichigo (Main Character). :)

[gigantor21]

^ But that's just it though.

Why should Zaraki to get a full Shikai BEFORE learning the sword's name? What good does it do when, as I've said before, he's only used it as a glorified Asaouchi without a name? What happened to his heartfelt declaration to learn the sword's name and get stronger? Using it like a real shikai with no name does nothing for the story, except add more plot holes and make a few fanboys happy. :/

[Neuroff]

In response to the whole "knowing the Zanpakuto's name" angle: wouldn't that be contradictory?

Ichigo got his Shikai AFTER learning Zangetsu's name. And a common theme for his growth has been getting to know Zangetsu better--he, Urahara, Hichigo, and Zangetsu himself have all stated that. Plus, Zaraki said he struggled with his lack of identity before having a name, and had lost sight of that until fighting Ichigo--which is why he wanted to know his sword's name after losing.

So forget about the requirements for a second. My question is, why would Kubo let him get around learning the name, when he's established that knowing the sword is a requirement for using it better?
He could have done it to allow Kenpachi a way to gain power without immediately getting bankai. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why he's able to fight evenly with Nnoitra.


Because he is a terrible, terrible storyteller.



Joking aside, I'm guessing he wouldn't? Zaraki will eventually (maybe this battle) yell out his Zanpukto's name and gain his shikai.
There is no chance that Kenpachi's zanpakutou is going to change, his zanpakutou is already unsealed.

[TheChosenOne]

^ But that's just it though.

Why should Zaraki to get a full Shikai BEFORE learning the sword's name? What good does it do when, as I've said before, he's only used it as a glorified Asaouchi without a name? What happened to his heartfelt declaration to learn the sword's name and get stronger? Using it like a real shikai with no name does nothing for the story, except add more plot holes and make a few fanboys happy. :/

What if that is how the process goes
Regular Katana > Shikai > you gradually know the name > Materialization > Bankai. :)

What if Shikai is activated automatically when the wielder reaches a power that is respectable to the sword. (I feel like I am reaching) :)

[gigantor21]

He could have done it to allow Kenpachi a way to gain power without immediately getting bankai. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why he's able to fight evenly with Nnoitra.

Couldn't Zaraki have learned the name before coming to HM? He wouldn't need to be ready for Bankai to do that either. Plus, it would make a lot more sense, and maintain plot consistency. I don't get why Kubo would write in something more convoluted.


What if that is how the process goes
Regular Katana > Shikai > you gradually know the name > Materialization > Bankai. :)

What if Shikai is activated automatically when the wielder reaches a power that is respectable to the sword. (I feel like I am reaching) :)

Then shouldn't that have happened with Ichigo? Making him an exception because of his training, or being a Vaizard, would only muddle the mythology. Again, I don't see why Kubo should flip it around for Zaraki. :/

[Neuroff]

Couldn't Zaraki have learned the name before coming to HM? He wouldn't need to be ready for Bankai to do that either. Plus, it would make a lot more sense, and maintain plot consistency. I don't get why Kubo would write in something more convoluted.
That's what I meant to say, I guess I should have made it more clear. Kenpachi could gain power just by learning his zanpakutou's name, and he wouldn't need to have bankai.

[gigantor21]

^ LOL don't worry about it. That happens to me all the time. :p

I think an important question no one has considered is...why create this ambiguity anyway? Why couldn't Zaraki have just said, "A release? Fuck that. I don't know the sword's name and don't need it." That way, we wouldn't be going back and forth about this all the time.

Oh, Kubo... *sigh*

[TheChosenOne]

Then shouldn't that have happened with Ichigo? Making him an exception because of his training, or being a Vaizard, would only muddle the mythology. Again, I don't see why Kubo should flip it around for Zaraki. :/

Well since Ichigo's hollow and Zangetsu are the same being (i am not sure), that could be why Ichigo had to learn the name before achieving Shikai. His hollow powers could have something to do with. :)

[gigantor21]

Well since Ichigo's hollow and Zangetsu are the same being (i am not sure), that could be why Ichigo had to learn the name before achieving Shikai. His hollow powers could have something to do with. :)

But why? What good does that do for him, or any of the other Vaizards? He still ends up with a Shikai, either way. And if it was a sign of his being a Vaizard, I'm sure Urahara would've noticed something. But we got no inclination of Ichigo being a Vaizard until the SS Arc.

So, again, it's possible, but does it add to story in any way?

[TheChosenOne]

Well Urahara noticed that Ichigo's GT, after learning shikai was unusally powerful. So maybe him being a vaizard when learning shikai could have something to do with it. :)

[Travis]

^ LOL don't worry about it. That happens to me all the time. :p

I think an important question no one has considered is...why create this ambiguity anyway? Why couldn't Zaraki have just said, "A release? Fuck that. I don't know the sword's name and don't need it." That way, we wouldn't be going back and forth about this all the time.

Oh, Kubo... *sigh*

Yeah this is why it's so hard to believe what the Data book says. And it's more believable to think that Kenpachi doesn't know what he's talking about when he says there is no seal on his sword, but then he asks for the name of his sword hoping to get stronger.

With every character we've seen they use the name of their weapon to release it.
I think most fans aren't aware of this Data book and will be surprised if his weapon doesn't change when he learns the name of his zanpaktou. Even though he already has a unique looking zanpaktou. I guess I just assumed it was beat up looking from combat and never bothering to fix it.

[segua]

It is an interesting note there Travis. We all know that Ken's sword in not like any normal sword. If it was, it would look like a regular japanese sword or even a very large sword similar to the size of the Grand Fisher's sword.

I doubt that Zangetsu and Ichigo's hollow are the same being. I think Zangetsu could be the manifestation of Ichigo's shinigami power and Ichigo's hollow the manifestation of Ichigo's hollow powers.

Now something just hit me. What if Ichigo was the only one that could use both bankai and resurrección with just one zanpakuto?

[MegaX]

Yeah this is why it's so hard to believe what the Data book says. And it's more believable to think that Kenpachi doesn't know what he's talking about when he says there is no seal on his sword, but then he asks for the name of his sword hoping to get stronger.

So... beliving the opposite of what the author says is somehow easier?


With every character we've seen they use the name of their weapon to release it.
I think most fans aren't aware of this Data book and will be surprised if his weapon doesn't change when he learns the name of his zanpaktou. Even though he already has a unique looking zanpaktou. I guess I just assumed it was beat up looking from combat and never bothering to fix it.

So fans not being aware of it makes it less valid?


I doubt that Zangetsu and Ichigo's hollow are the same being. I think Zangetsu could be the manifestation of Ichigo's shinigami power and Ichigo's hollow the manifestation of Ichigo's hollow powers.


I think the idea is that there's one inner being that represents the whole of Ichigo's power, and the "face" of that being depends on which power is stronger one.

[segua]

Doesn't Ichigo's hollow have a name?

Does Ken need more killing prowess? That man is a beast already. So even if he does learn it, probably he won't ever use it unless it's a strong opponent that he could fight using all his powers.

Ken isn't a killer also. He just loves to fight. I wonder if his character will change later on. Maybe he'll soften up or change his desire.

[TheChosenOne]

Ichigo's hollow is given the name Shiroi Ichigo in Bleach games. :)

[MegaX]

Doesn't Ichigo's hollow have a name?

His Hollow says he doesn't for what it's worth.

[ttxdragon]

well,

let's see:

- We can't use Ichigo for reference, his whole obtaining-mechanism was screwed anyway.
- What do we have for reference to make own facts from the manga? loose statements that don't really give us an complete rule for it...
- What do we have on statements as facts from all canon sources? Databook says "Kenpachi&Ichigo == Permanently released"


If we compare by the Fight between those two, Kenpachi has shikai as it was made to compare "Zanpakutou spirit working with user" with "Zanpakutou Spirit working against user" while on similar levels in the base.

but again, there is simply not enough 'evidence' or 'rules' given to us to even start to say that the databook lies.


as for the 'why make an exception for him' stuff:
why not? I mean, there are people with unique abilities all over the world and there are a thousand ways to accomplish the same thing for everything.
There are always 'exceptions' to the (as i stated until now non-existant) 'rule'.

[Travis]

It starts with the little fight between Renji and Ichigo. When Renji asks what Ichigo's zanpaktou's name is and then he says it's thousand years too early for you to be fighting equally with me. Then he announces the name of his zanpaktou and it transforms.

If knowing the name of your zanpaktou isn't required for a shikai in almost all cases, then why assume he doesn't have it then and say that stuff? That's where it's pretty much implied that you need to know your zanpaktou's name to release it. It's also I'm not sure if there is any conversation between Urahara and Ichigo on the subject when he's retraining. It was so long ago.

After that you can pretty much infer that you need to use the name to release your shikai, we haven't seen anyone else in shikai without using the name of their zanpaktou. Also, I went back and read the conversation between Yoruichi and Ichigo when talking about Ichigo and kenpachi's zanpaktou, and nowhere does it say he's in shikai. Ichigo asks if it's like Kenpachi's when she says Ichigo's zanpaktou is always released. She never says yes, she just goes on to say he's the only one to become a Captain without learning the name of his zanpaktou. That doesn't seem to confirm he's in shikai to me.

So that means that this Databook is the only real source of Kenpachi's shikai. And it isn't even popular enough to be translated by anyone. Yeah I know it's long but it's been out for atleast 2 years now right? I know more than a year. I haven't even seen a translation of the page that says Kenpachi is always in shikai, since it's such a popular subject.

Maybe these databooks are popular and sell as much as the weekly manga does, so it's common knowledge to most people, but isn't it a bit contradicting without any kind of explanation or real story in the manga explaining how it's possible for that to be achieved without knowing the name of your zanpaktou?

It seems wrong. Like saying someone who doesn't originally have a bankai, somehow obtains it in a databook not manga, without explaining how. It wouldn't be the training 10 years thing or Yoruichi thing it would be something completely different.

[Cyven]

What I'd like to know is how do other shinigami acquire their zanpakuto?
Kenpachi was shown already having his long before he decided to become a shinigami. Yachiru didn't. Ikkaku apparently either had his already OR just one that looked a lot like it, though I'm going to assume the first.

Momo, Hitsugaya, Renji and Rukia all didn't get theirs till they entered the academy and I think this is the standard for all shinigami.

This leads me to believe that Kenpachi's zanpakuto is very different from others' to begin with. (Though the same would count for Ikkaku's. However, since he DOES know his zanpakuto's name I'll leave him out of the discussion for now) It doesn't look anything like regular zanpakuto and while other swords seem capable of restoring themselves, Kenpachi's always looks worn, like he's had it for a lifetime. (It's so very tempting to think he's had it, or a similar sword, when he was alive as well).

Anyway, before I hang myself with all these strings of possibilities, I'd like to wrap things up by saying that if Kenpachi's sword was obtained differently and not a "standard" zanpakuto, it's not unlikely to think it can work differently too.

Maybe it is always in a state similar to shikai, but it doesn't get activated until Kenpachi learns its name.

Maybe it's just an unusual sword that has yet to be a "fully released" shikai.

[gigantor21]

as for the 'why make an exception for him' stuff:
why not? I mean, there are people with unique abilities all over the world and there are a thousand ways to accomplish the same thing for everything.
There are always 'exceptions' to the (as i stated until now non-existant) 'rule'.

But what would that do for the story? Again, it'll only make things more confusing if he is different. Kubo has thrown his own rules out the window a million times; we don't need one more. That's why I think he should just learn the sword's name before attaining its powers.

Is that so wrong? :p

[ttxdragon]

But what would that do for the story? Again, it'll only make things more confusing if he is different. Kubo has thrown his own rules out the window a million times; we don't need one more. That's why I think he should just learn the sword's name before attaining its powers.

Is that so wrong? :p
yesh it is (imho)

since rules are made to be broken, what if it's being broken by people we knew from the beginning that their something special?
it's only right to be done so.


as for the 'attaining it's powers'.
we know he doesn't use the swords powers and will have to learn the name of/get to know the sword to use them. but the sword is released and in the form of the shikai.


(that's all besides me still believing his sword doesn't have a name)

[MegaX]

Incidentally, if he didn't have Shikai either, you'd think Yoruichi would have mentioned that he became a captain with neither Shikai or Bankai, since it's implied that all vice-captains and Seated officers have them.


So that means that this Databook is the only real source of Kenpachi's shikai. And it isn't even popular enough to be translated by anyone. Yeah I know it's long but it's been out for atleast 2 years now right? I know more than a year. I haven't even seen a translation of the page that says Kenpachi is always in shikai, since it's such a popular subject.

IIRC, it has been translated by a few people on this board.


Maybe these databooks are popular and sell as much as the weekly manga does, so it's common knowledge to most people, but isn't it a bit contradicting without any kind of explanation or real story in the manga explaining how it's possible for that to be achieved without knowing the name of your zanpaktou?

It seems wrong. Like saying someone who doesn't originally have a bankai, somehow obtains it in a databook not manga, without explaining how. It wouldn't be the training 10 years thing or Yoruichi thing it would be something completely different.

Well, unless you're saying that the Author is wrong, or is lying about his own work, then the Databook is just as canon as the manga, since Kubo wrote them both.

[Neuroff]

Kenpachi saying his sword has NO SEAL on it is the same as saying he's in shikai. The databook is a confirmation of Ichigo and Yoruichi's conversation, and says that Kenpachi's sword is always released. Just think about what no seal means, when there are only 3 states to a zanpakutou.

1. Sealed
2. Shikai
3. Bankai

[Hyakkimaru Hiro]

Even if it's not sealed, Kenpachi's reiatsu and his sword's conflict with each other. [I think it was stated in the Kenpachi-Ichigo fight]
Which means that if he learned his sword's name and started interacting with it, he would become more uber powerful than he already is.
Or something. Maybe even gain an ability. o_O

[TheChosenOne]

Well just by knowing the swords name should increase Zaraki's powers. He may also learn some attacks, like Ichigo's GT. :)

[RaZe]

so... to sum up this thread, the sword is shikai in the sense that it won't change form until zaraki says bankai? [disregarding the possibility that the swords ability changes its form]

[Neuroff]

Yes, it will probably get stronger if he learns its name, but the form will be the same.

[stugots]

the Kenpachi-Nnoitra fight is coming out next so untill he learns a new attack or goes into bankai or says his swords name we will officially know. Unless hes stubborn and beats Nnoitra by just removing his eye patch it will keep us on the know how even longer unless someone kidnaps Kubo Tite and threatens him untill he reveals the answer

[Neuroff]

Except Kubo already wrote that Kenpachi is in shikai in the databook.

[hollowdemon]

well im just going to say no just based on how he ended up ASKING his zanpaktou his name anyway which means that he still have yet to know its name and achieved shikai. It might already be in shikai which i dont think is right at all but kubo is the man to make things have more plothole than usual.
ill just say its not point blank :p

[Neuroff]

Then there's the fact that nobody ever says you need to know the name. Just ignore that. Ignore Kubo's words. You might as well stop reading Bleach if you think you know more than the creator, go make your own version.

[MegaX]

well im just going to say no just based on how he ended up ASKING his zanpaktou his name anyway which means that he still have yet to know its name and achieved shikai. It might already be in shikai which i dont think is right at all but kubo is the man to make things have more plothole than usual.
ill just say its not point blank :p

Yeah, you go tell that Author! Who the hell does Kubo think he is to decide who has what?

[TheChosenOne]

well im just going to say no just based on how he ended up ASKING his zanpaktou his name anyway which means that he still have yet to know its name and achieved shikai. It might already be in shikai which i dont think is right at all but kubo is the man to make things have more plothole than usual.
ill just say its not point blank :p

How can you ignore the manga facts, there is not a statement that says you need the name to achieve shikai. Kenpachi is in shikai but he activated without knowing the name. Ichigo knew the name before activating Shikai. We can say that Ken's method is special or Ichigo's method is special. :)

[ZeroPatience]

I caught up with the anime and at the time it was on about episode 100, I then went over to the manga.

At no time to me was there ever a question about whether Zaraki's zanpaktou was Shikai or not. I quite clearly got the message from the Anime that it was indeed permanently in Shikai form and he had no idea what its name was. As such all the power he wields is his own but Ichigo beat him by teaming up with Zangetsu and using his and it's power. The jagged edges of Zaraki's may mean it's not properly released because it was a "forced" release shall we say, that was due to Zaraki's crazy spiritual pressure.

- ZP

[AngryChubbs]

zaraki said his sword is permantely released didn't he? thus it is case closed isn't it?

[Decorus]

Actually he said there is no seal on his sword indicating thats his Bankei....

[Travis]

The jagged edges of Zaraki's may mean it's not properly released because it was a "forced" release shall we say, that was due to Zaraki's crazy spiritual pressure.


Well we'll know for sure if his sword transforms or changes after using the name of it.

It's kind of implied that you need to know the name of the zanpaktou to achieve shikai. Just like it's implied there are only 2 levels of release for a zanpaktou. Or that you need to know the name of your bankai to use it. If it wasn't then why is everyone using a name to release it? It began with Renji asking if Ichigo knew the name of his sword? He assumes after that, that Ichigo doesn't have shikai so he is weak. Then he says it's too early for Ichigo to be fighting him, and proceeds to release by using the name of the zanpaktou.

It's just bad writing imo. It's hard to believe he would even bother unsealing his zanpaktou if he just believed in his own strength and didn't care about his zanpaktou. Or it would allow a user who saw it as only a tool and nothing more, that's reiatsu hurt it, would release.

[Neuroff]

For the last time it's not going to change. The databook says that Kenpachi's sword is a fulltime released zanpakutou, just like Ichigo's.

[Travis]

With the way it's written, and since Kenpachi is such a rarity, it wouldn't be unlikely for his zanpaktou to change during his "Shikai" release again if it already has changed once.

Also stop siting the databook repeatedly. Everyone's already seen people say the databook says it.

I'd actually like to see where the databook says Kenpachi is in shikai. Instead of people continually siting something they can't source or haven't read themselves.

Never does it say in the manga or anime that a zanpaktou can only transform once in shikai.

[Neuroff]

With the way it's written, and since Kenpachi is such a rarity, it wouldn't be unlikely for his zanpaktou to change during his "Shikai" release again if it already has changed once.

Also stop siting the databook repeatedly. Everyone's already seen people say the databook says it.

I'd actually like to see where the databook says Kenpachi is in shikai. Instead of people continually siting something they can't source or haven't read themselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenpachi#Zanpakut.C5.8D
http://www.narutomania.com/forums/bleach-manga/proof-kenpachis-shikai-translators-only-8-83596.html#post2492736


Never does it say in the manga or anime that a zanpaktou can only transform once in shikai.
If you had any actual evidence, that would be great. Your entire argument has been based on absolutely nothing this whole thread.

[TheChosenOne]

Kenpachi states that he did not put a seal on his zanpak. If he did or knew how to, it would go back to a regular shinigami zanpak. Look at his sword, if he is not on shikai and is in base form why does it look different than all the other swords. We can intrepret that yoruichi saying that kenpachi is the only one without a bankai, he gas a shikai. Otherwise he would be the only captain without a shikai (which automatically means he has no bankai). :)

[Travis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenpachi#Zanpakut.C5.8D
http://www.narutomania.com/forums/bleach-manga/proof-kenpachis-shikai-translators-only-8-83596.html#post2492736


If you had any actual evidence, that would be great. Your entire argument has been based on absolutely nothing this whole thread.

Yeah because there is no evidence to the contrary of what I'm saying. So I'm keeping an open mind while you're trying to say things are facts that haven't been stated yet at all. You've been doing it quite a bit with different things in Bleach. While it's generally ok to think of different possiblities for things without contradicting the current storyline, you're placing facts to questions that haven't been written by the writer yet.

It's also funny how you argue that it's never said in the manga that you need to know the name of your zanapktou to achieve shikai, but then someone says it's never stated in the storyline that a zanpaktou can change or transform in shikai twice, and you can't accept that kind of logic because it's not based on anything. Funny.

ChosenOne. I read that part of the thing. It doesn't ever really state during the Yoruichi and Ichigo conversation in the manga. Yoruichi tells Ichigo his zanpaktou is always in shikai, Ichigo asks, so it's like Kenpachi's? Yoruichi explains something about the captains and bankai I believe, without answering the question Ichigo ask.
And then she goes on to tell him that Kenpachi is the only one to become a captain without learning the name of his zanpaktou. So it's never really stated by her that he is the only captain to become one without learning bankai.

Maybe this stuff is explained better in the anime. I can't really remember those episodes clearly. I know they say pretty much the same stuff, but I don't have those episodes and no one has sited if it's said any different in the anime than the manga.

It's also interesting to note how anticlimatic it would be if he learned the name of his zanpaktou in battle and used it, and nothing changed on the zanpaktou because it was already fully released or something. Almost makes learning the name useless. I suppose there could be some kind of ability that wouldn't be seen at first added to Kenpachi. Depends on Kubo, I guess.

[Neuroff]

Yeah because there is no evidence to the contrary of what I'm saying. So I'm keeping an open mind while you're trying to say things are facts that haven't been stated yet at all. You've been doing it quite a bit with different things in Bleach. While it's generally ok to think of different possiblities for things without contradicting the current storyline, you're placing facts to questions that haven't been written by the writer yet.
Kenpachi's words, Yoruichi and Ichigo's conversation, the DATABOOK.


It's also funny how you argue that it's never said in the manga that you need to know the name of your zanapktou to achieve shikai, but then someone says it's never stated in the storyline that a zanpaktou can change or transform in shikai twice, and you can't accept that kind of logic because it's not based on anything. Funny.
This is especially funny, because there is actually plenty of evidence behind my argument. Kenpachi is proof that you do not need to know the name of your zanpakutou to achieve shikai. I posted links of translations of the databook stating that Kenpachi's zanpakutou is a full-time released zanpakutou like Ichigo's, yet you act like there's no evidence.

[TheChosenOne]

@Travis

It states in the manga that every captain except one can do the ban release, with the exception of kenpachi. So that means he can't do bankai, plus yoruichi's conversation with ichigo kind of confirms kenpachi having shikai just like ichigo's. :)

[Travis]

I'm not saying he isn't in shikai. You're confused. I'm saying that his sword might change when he learns the name of it, hence he isn't fully aware of his shikai or it's power, yet. He doesn't seem to bother to fight with his zanpaktou and it's hard to believe that his sword is fully transformed at this point when he doesn't know it's name.

Although I still think Yoruichi's conversation means nothing, and siting wikipedia which only has a sentence on the subject sited from the databook. Anyone could have written that really. I was more or less looking to actually read the databook and translation of it to understand it better.

You have to admit there is still a possiblity it could transform or change or a passive ability could be learned, once he announces the name. Which could mean his zanpakuto isn't fully released.
[hr]

@Travis

It states in the manga that every captain except one can do the ban release, with the exception of kenpachi. So that means he can't do bankai, plus yoruichi's conversation with ichigo kind of confirms kenpachi having shikai just like ichigo's. :)

Yeah but they were talking about bankai, not shikai. It would be kind of dumb to say every captain can do shikai and bankai except one. The conversation during that point is more focused on bankai and doesn't necessarily mean anything in regards to shikai. It doesn't ever say that every captain can do shikai, and again when explaining and introducing what bankai is and how powerful it is or what it does, talking about shikai all of a sudden kind of goes off topic and doesn't help the shock or surprise of the characters learning about bankai.

[TheChosenOne]

Why would a released shikai change just cuz he found out the name. Kenpachi's's sword should remain the same, it may look less jagged, but I doubt it would change shape. He may learn attacks and maybe some other things. Yoruichi never corrected ichigo, he was right about kenpachi's zanpak. I though everything in wiki needs to have sources. :)

[Travis]

I think the real question is why wouldn't a zanpaktou change after announcing it's name? We see all these changes when a name is used, and it's still unclear the case of Kenpachi's since he's the only one that has been through this kind of shikai.

Also wikipedia is written by people, and they can site anything they want really to support their claims. It doesn't mean there is any evidence it's true.

[Neuroff]

Although I still think Yoruichi's conversation means nothing, and siting wikipedia which only has a sentence on the subject sited from the databook. Anyone could have written that really. I was more or less looking to actually read the databook and translation of it to understand it better.
The second link I posted has a direct translation of the databook.


You have to admit there is still a possiblity it could transform or change or a passive ability could be learned, once he announces the name. Which could mean his zanpakuto isn't fully released.
I fail to see how gaining powers would mean that it is not fully released. Rukia developed her zanpakutou's abilities with Kaien, does that mean her zanpakutou was not released before she developed them? She also developed a third dance after Kaien's death, does that mean she didn't have a shikai until then? If you were to think like that, nobody in the Bleach world has a release, because they can always develop new powers.

[TheChosenOne]

Yeah but they were talking about bankai, not shikai. It would be kind of dumb to say every captain can do shikai and bankai except one. Conversation during that point is more focused on bankai and doesn't necessarily mean anything in regards to shikai. It doesn't ever say that every captain can do shikai, and again when explaining and introducing what bankai is and how powerful it is or what it does, talking about shikai all of a sudden kind of goes off topic and doesn't help the shock or surprise of the characters learning about bankai.

Well to have bankai you just have shikai. So when yoruichi said that every captain has bankai (exception ken) she means that they also have shikai, since its a prerequisite. So if kenpachi does not have shikai, then her statement would have been false since kenpachi does not meet the requirement. :)

[Travis]

The second link I posted has a direct translation of the databook.


I fail to see how gaining powers would mean that it is not fully released. Rukia developed her zanpakutou's abilities with Kaien, does that mean her zanpakutou was not released before she developed them? She also developed a third dance after Kaien's death, does that mean she didn't have a shikai until then? If you were to think like that, nobody in the Bleach world has a release, because they can always develop new powers.

About the second link. I don't know that conversation is a little confusing. I first clicked on it and scrolled somewhere else or something that came to the Yoruichi and Ichigo conversation so I didn't think anythinig of it at first.

It appears from that conversation that the zanpaktou itself is in shikai, but it's useless or it's just the form of his shikai. He doesn't really have the strength of the shikai or something like that. So it could be interpreted as him not actually having achieved shikai but his sword is just in the form or looks like a shikai. Interesting theory, that could be interpreted as Kenpachi still just needs to achieve his shikai even though his sword looks like it's in shikai. He doesn't have the power of shikai. Don't really like that theory myself but oh well.
[hr]

Well to have bankai you just have shikai. So when yoruichi said that every captain has bankai (exception ken) she means that they also have shikai, since its a prerequisite. So if kenpachi does not have shikai, then her statement would have been false since kenpachi does not meet the requirement. :)

That's flawed logic really. No offense.

Bad example, but don't want to think too hard about this. If I say you get flour (shikai), then you make a cake(bankai), and everyone make a cake except for Kenpachi, that doesn't mean he has flour or not. It can be used in a variety of cases irl. They'll use questiong kind of like these on tests, to test your logic skills.

[TheChosenOne]

The form is shikai it does not matter about its strength or attacks. Look at ichigo's bankai he did not know how to do bankai GT, so does that mean he did not have bankai against byakuya. He did not learn GT until his training, does that mean fought against ken,ikkaku and renji without shikai. Does that mean he only unlocked shikai after the training. :)

[Travis]

Hey I'm not the translator who discussed it. Click on the link yourself to see.
According to them every shikai has an ability. Kenpachi has none. They go on to talk about it being in the form of shikai but just useless when interpretting the translation of it, they appear to be translators discussing the databook.

Every shikai we've seen has an ability or does something. I guess Kenpachi's does none or we haven't been told by Kubo what Kenpachi's does during his fights. Ichigo used GT on that Menos I think. So I'm not really sure about that being his shikai ability. Maybe you can use a shikai ability without releasing your zanpaktou. It just gets easier or stronger when it's released. Kind of like learning the name of hte attack. Anyways, Ichigo uses his GT right after releasing also, so I don't really know. Sounds like a shikai is pretty useless wihtout learning it's ability or what you can do with it. It's a little confusing now to think about it. Because now it sounds like his zanpakutou is released and but he's gaining nothing from it, so it almost sounds like he could be fighting the same with a regular zanpakuto.

My head hurts. hehe

[TheChosenOne]

@Travis

Yoruichi said that every captain except ken has bankai. So that means every captain has cake mix (bankai) except for ken. Since cake mix needs eggs (shikai) to form a cake, its logical to understand than every captain except ken has cake mix (bankai), but its also logical to understand that all the captains have eggs (shikai). Since yoruichi only talked about ken not having cake mix (bankai). :)

I was responding to what you said earlier about shikai needing to gain powers to be fully released. :)

[Travis]

It's a possibility he has shikai or not. There isn't enough information to determine what Ken has. I'm telling you've I seen questions like that on tests on logic. If you try to determine what Ken has in that instance, you would get it wrong because there isn't enough information to say whether or not he has eggs (shikai) in the information given. You can only determine he doesn't have cake (bankai) because of that one statement.

[Neuroff]

It appears from that conversation that the zanpaktou itself is in shikai, but it's useless or it's just the form of his shikai. He doesn't really have the strength of the shikai or something like that. So it could be interpreted as him not actually having achieved shikai but his sword is just in the form or looks like a shikai. Interesting theory, that could be interpreted as Kenpachi still just needs to achieve his shikai even though his sword looks like it's in shikai. He doesn't have the power of shikai. Don't really like that theory myself but oh well.
Really, the only thing that matters is Kenpachi's zanpakutou is in it's shikai form.


Hey I'm not the translator who discussed it. Click on the link yourself to see.
According to them every shikai has an ability. Kenpachi has none. They go on to talk about it being in the form of shikai but just useless when interpretting the translation of it, they appear to be translators discussing the databook.
I read through most of that thread a while ago, nobody posting there is a translator. The only thing that matters is the conversation with njt. Every shikai having an ability is an excuse of the people who think Kenpachi doesn't have a shikai.


Every shikai we've seen has an ability or does something. I guess Kenpachi's does none or we haven't been told by Kubo what Kenpachi's does during his fights. Ichigo used GT on that Menos I think. So I'm not really sure about that being his shikai ability. Maybe you can use a shikai ability without releasing your zanpaktou. It just gets easier or stronger when it's released. Kind of like learning the name of hte attack. Anyways, Ichigo uses his GT right after releasing also, so I don't really know. Sounds like a shikai is pretty useless wihtout learning it's ability or what you can do with it. It's a little confusing now to think about it. Because now it sounds like his zanpakutou is released and but he's gaining nothing from it, so it almost sounds like he could be fighting the same with a regular zanpakuto.

My head hurts. hehe
This is where knowing your zanpakutou's name actually does mean something. Zangetsu says that Kenpachi's power is clashing with his zanpakutou's because they do not fight together. When Kenpachi does synchronize with his zanpakutou, he will gain a great amount of power. Communicating with his zanpakutou would also allow him to learn his znapakutou's abilities.

[TheChosenOne]

It's a possibility he has shikai or not. There isn't enough information to determine what Ken has. I'm telling you've I seen questions like that on tests on logic. If you try to determine what Ken has in that instance, you would get it wrong because there isn't enough information to say whether or not he has eggs (shikai) in the information given. You can only determine he doesn't have cake (bankai) because of that one statement.

What do you mean by there being not enough info on ken having shikai. I think its vice-versa. There isn't enough info on him not having shikai. The DATABOOKS, say he has shikai, yoruichi implies he has shikai, ichigo confirms that ken zanpak is full time released shikai like his. I don't understand how much more info you needs for it to be valid. I guess sinceit does not say in the manga outright, so does that man ichigo was not a vaizard till he met shinji. So does that mean Isshin was never a shinigami until grand fisher. Its a manga, the info is given over time, we can reach credible conclusions, a test is not informative, its a measurement. A manga is not something to measure ourselves, whats the comparison. :)

[henrikoez]

It is hard to determine Zaraki's Zanpakutou form. But i think it isn't Shikai form. Usually the shape of the sword will be different if it is in Shikai form and Kenpachi said that his sword isn't sealed during his battle with Ichigo. Ichigo's word during his Bankai training with Yoruichi can't prove anything since Ichigo didn't understand anything at that time.

[TheChosenOne]

Ichigo understood that his sword is a fulltime released shikai, and he made a comaprison with kenpachi's zanpak. What do you mean by the shape will be different, all the shikai have different shapes. :)

[njt]

I'm not a bleach nut and actually haven't read it since Kenpachi was out of it the first time, but I'm thinking they're trying to make a statement that he does have Shikai since it'd be odd to mention him in the first place if that wasn't what they were going for. but *shrug* i don't like databook japanese >.> :p

[henrikoez]

What i mean is the shape of the sealed Zanpakutou(katana) and the Shikai form. There is no Shikai that has the shape and size of the katana. That's my point. Since Kenpachi's form is katana, so i say that it isn't in Shikai form. I hope you can see my point of view. XD.

[TheChosenOne]

@njt

Is there a link to a translated version of the bleach databook. The one I downloaded was in Japanese. If you can find one or know where too, it will be greatly appreciated. :)
[hr]

What i mean is the shape of the sealed Zanpakutou(katana) and the Shikai form. There is no Shikai that has the shape and size of the katana. That's my point. Since Kenpachi's form is katana, so i say that it isn't in Shikai form. I hope you can see my point of view. XD.

Well what about ichigo's bankai, it takes a form of a katana, which is a first. There are variations of the katan shape, like kira's zanpak is basically a katana with twice bended front edge. Rukia's shikai takes on the katana shape but its just white. :)

[njt]

Nah, not that i know of. The page I got was Japanese and that's how i translated it.

[TheChosenOne]

Do you have a link to the translated page. Do you know which forum it would be, thanks. :)

[henrikoez]

For databook, i've only seen the part 1 in English(i don't even know what is the use of databook). Try search it in www.mangatraders.com.

I have to say it more specific then. The unsealed Zanpakutou is just a plain katana and Zaraki's zanpakutou is just like that. Ichigo's Zangetsu is large and Rukia's Sode no Shirayuiki is white and has the white tail. That's what i mean, Zaraki's zanpakutou is like the other katana. XD

My mistake, try this link Databook part 1 (http://anip.homeunix.com/manga/index.php?path=Bleach/Previous%20Chapters/)

[njt]

Do you have a link to the translated page. Do you know which forum it would be, thanks. :)

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=674480&postcount=112

you posted right after it :p

[TheChosenOne]

Almost all the shikai has some resemblance to a katana. Ken's shikai has a jagged edge. While ichigo's shikai is just a wider. :)
[hr]

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=674480&postcount=112

you posted right after it :p

Doh! Thanks, this is what happens when you are typing and browsing while asleep. :)

[henrikoez]

Have you tried to download the databook since you're looking for it? For me, there is no shikai that still has the size, color, and shape of a normal katana. Because i see that Kenpachi's sword doesn't have unique attributes like other Shikai. The jagged edge is caused by Kenpachi using his Zanpakutou violently. XD

[TheChosenOne]

Do you mean attacks based on the swords. Ken does not know the name so he can't use any attacks. What other attributes are u talking about. I already have the databook but its raw, but thanks to njt's link the kenpschi page is translated. :)

[henrikoez]

Well, the link that i give is in English but i don't have any idea about the contents. I don't know about that. Maybe his true form of Shikai is really just a plain small katana like the other sealed Zanpakutou like you say. It is confusing.

[hollowdemon]

i would create a manga where theres a guy that happens to be 15 year old, encounters a girl thats a shinigami and then ends up the main character in it with both special evil and good powers. And i would call it Bleach !
that should be a good manga for us :D

[TheChosenOne]

Zaraki's shikai also has a different hilt, it's also much longer. You can most likely compare his shikai to Ichigo's bankai :)

[patedecarne]

What i mean is the shape of the sealed Zanpakutou(katana) and the Shikai form. There is no Shikai that has the shape and size of the katana. That's my point. Since Kenpachi's form is katana, so i say that it isn't in Shikai form. I hope you can see my point of view. XD.

Henrikoez, finally someone who can understand my point of view: my logic is so simple , but so simple to understand: Kenpachi doesn't achieve shikai, simple that, period. like henrikoez stated , the shape of his katana is just normal to be in shikai.
Now 90% of this forum will say: it's stated in the databook, databook here, databook there, but I'm not forgetting that bleach is mainly manga, and not a databook, AND until someone or Kenpachi himself stated in manga that his zampakutou is in Shikai, nothing will change my mind...

[TheChosenOne]

That reasoning then should be applied to other things as well. Just cuz it doesn't say outright in the manga does not mean it's not true. Ichigo being a vaizard was shown from the beginning, but does that mean he only became a vaizard when he was revealed as a vaizard. Yoruichi says that Ichigo's is a full time released, since Ichigo was in shikai she is talking about his zanpak being a full time released shikai. Ichigo then says "like Zaraki", which is another point to the fact that Ken has shikai. :)

Yoruichi says that all shinigami's need to have bankai to become a captain. Kenpachi does not have bankai and is a captain. We can take that statement as saying that ken does have shikai, since Yoruichi only talks about him not having bankai. If he has no shikai, Yoruichi would've said that he is the only captain without knowing his releases. :)

[patedecarne]

TheChosenOne, the main problem is that even databooks aren't so accurate, for example, Daizenshuu, one of the most reliable sources of DragonBall stated that Gohan fought with Dabura in SSJ1 form, but we clearly see that he was SSJ2 in that fight, his hair and the sparks prove he was in SSJ 2...
that's the main reason I don't believe in databooks, and the only canon for me is the manga itself...

[TheChosenOne]

Well even in the manga, there are more evidence that he has shikai than toward the contrary. I understand that since it does not say outright it's not solid proof, but there are so many clear implications toward shikai that you can't ignore. What's the point in Ichigo saying "like Zaraki", if he was not implying that Zaraki also has a full time released shikai. If Yoruichi only said that Ken does not have bankai, that does not leave out shikai. Otherwise it's perfectly logical to assume that Ken having shikai is credible since Yoruichi only canceled out bankai. :)

[Zerosaber77]

Could one not just say that Kenpachi has achieved shikai but has no control of or interest in its abilities? Ichigo's sword (one would assume) cannot go back into it's sealed state due to the intense amount of reiatsu he puts out. Kenpachi's inherent reiatsu could be the reason it is in shikai form, but the fact that he has about a 0% amount of synchro causes his energy to work against the sword damaging and stripping away its edge like it is. If his energy is powerful enough to shred the blade, could it not have also destroyed the ornamentation on the sword as well? He may have had it in shikai, but the fact that he can't work with it means that it can't repair itself well either. Therefore, it isn't able to repair the things that may make it look like shikai.

Just a thought.

[TheChosenOne]

Do you meant to say that since Zaraki can't use it's abilities he technically is not in shikai. If that's the case then Rukia was not in shikai till he learned the 3rd dance. What about Ichigo learning GT. He did not know until the training, so does that mean he was not in shikai the entire time. :)

Side Note: Welcome to Mangahelpers, Hope you have a great time here. :)

[MegaX]

TheChosenOne, the main problem is that even databooks aren't so accurate, for example, Daizenshuu, one of the most reliable sources of DragonBall stated that Gohan fought with Dabura in SSJ1 form, but we clearly see that he was SSJ2 in that fight, his hair and the sparks prove he was in SSJ 2...
that's the main reason I don't believe in databooks, and the only canon for me is the manga itself...

So the authors--who write the databooks as well as the manga--are wrong about their own work?

That makes perfect sense, guys. Kubo thinks that, just because he wrote the story and the setting, that he can decide who has what form? Jesus, what an arrogant prick that author is.

Decorus; The seal puts it into it's initial form, and when released turns it into a Shikai. Bankai isn't the unsealed form, but more of a level 2.

[ZeroPatience]

The sealed form Zanpaktou *usually* has a normal sword guard on it. Kenpachi's doesn't. The only person I can think who has a sealed form Zanpaktou without guard is Urahara, but I wouldn't be surprised if he tinkered with it to get it like that. Besides Rukia's and Hitsugaya's Shikai look very much like a sealed Zanpaktou barring the bits tagged on the grip's end.

http://www.imagup.net/01/1177852749_bleach-wallpaper-238.jpg - Pic of Ken's sword. Doesn't look remotely like any other sealed form Zanpaktous imo.

Also this could go against mt opinion that it is a Shikai but does it have a scabbard? That is to say the sword's own scabbard (which for example Ichigo's permanent doesn't have, he just has rags).

- ZP

[TheChosenOne]

Urahara may have it but just hides it cuz it's a cane. As you can see the blade is too thin compared to other sealed zanpak's. :)

[Decorus]

Shikai is release 1 Bankei is Release 2, Kenpachi's sword has no released state ergo its Bankei or Kenpachi has no idea what he is talking about.

Kenpachi's Soul Cutter has always looked like that meaning it could be exactly like the sword cane another unique sword form. This means his was specificly, made to look like it. Especially since he had it long before he joined Soul Society.

The jagged edge and horrible appearance comes from the fact that his sword actually weakens his power as he expends more reiatsu as they have this whole disharmonic reiatsu interraction.

Ever heard of a ghost writer? Do you honestly think that a Manga Artist has time to take off to create a Data Book? Most likely its one of his assistants or someone else paid to take whats happened in the Manga and put it in a book format.

A manga artist essentially works most of the week putting together the next manga. What little free time they have is likely spent either planning out further plot lines or tinkering with ideas for the next manga they may decide to work on. Then there is family and friends who he wants to see and free time to spend on actually enjoying the proceeds of thier work.

Most of them likely had an agent who goes Oooh Databook makes more money, Manga Artist goes I don't have the time, Agent goes np I'll find someone to write it for you.

[TheChosenOne]

So what are u saying, does ken have shikai or not. If yes then I agree with you but if not, I would like to hear your reasons for why kenpschi is not in shikai. :)

[MegaX]

Shikai is release 1 Bankei is Release 2, Kenpachi's sword has no released state ergo its Bankei or Kenpachi has no idea what he is talking about.

Well, someone has no idea what they're talking about.

[segua]

If the sword is not sealed and not in bankai, what more do you have left? So it has to be shikai.

[henrikoez]

So Kenpachi's zanpakutou is in Shikai just like Ichigo because of his immense reiatsu? That makes sense too. But I can't forget that shikai form usually don't take the same size, shape, and color as the sealed sword (normal katana). I don't really trust databook, i want to hear the words from Kenpachi himself. XD

[hollowdemon]

yeah id rather see and hear proves from kenpachi in the manga rather than relying on the databook to make me believing something that might not be even true after all.
Its probably mentioned before but in anime kenpachis zanpaktou is the only one thats all silver while every others shikai turns into black and silver on the blade although in the manga its not shown that way im sure theres a reason why kubo did that.

[MegaX]

So Kenpachi's zanpakutou is in Shikai just like Ichigo because of his immense reiatsu? That makes sense too. But I can't forget that shikai form usually don't take the same size, shape, and color as the sealed sword (normal katana). I don't really trust databook, i want to hear the words from Kenpachi himself. XD

It's not the same size or shape; it's longer.

And it's not the same color in the anime either.

[Neuroff]

Kenpachi: My sword has no seal. This is its true form.

Don't listen to Kenpachi, don't listen to Yoruichi, don't listen to Kubo. You might as well stop reading huh?

[TheChosenOne]

Ichigo have never stated himself as a vaizard. So that means he is not a vaizard. I don't understand the logic behind, only if the person says it is true. That means Stark, Halibel and the old guy are not espada. Isshin is not a captain, Urahara was not a captain. Urahara does not have shikai, since he never states his release as shikai. Ichigo does not have shikai, since I don't remember him saying it. :)

I think when you seal a sword it return to it's original form (the form before shikai). So since Ken swords has no seal (it stays shikai, the same with Ichigo). :)

[gigantor21]

^ One thing:

In all those examples, it's dead obvious. In fact, people DID confirm those things. Yoruichi said Urahara was a Captain (which is how we found out), she also said Ichigo had Shikai before the Bankai training, and the top 3 Espada were referred to as Espada by Aizen during the "HM Tea Party". In Isshin's case, no one else wears the Captain's hakama besides a captain, so what else could he be? An ex-cosplayer? :XD

With Zaraki, it's ambiguous. We've seen others with swords that look weird while unreleased, like Mayuri's; the Databook may say his sword is released, but he doesn't know it's name and can't use it's powers; and to this day, as I've said before, he's only used it like a regular sword. So you can argue it either way, thanks to all the mixed messages and missing pieces.

Me, I think it could go either way. But my argument is that it's current state is irrelevant if he can't use it like an actual Shikai--just like Zangetsu's Shikai before Ichigo learned GetsuTen, though we KNOW that it's a Shikai. What bothers me is that people in both camps are so pent up about it. :/

[henrikoez]

I don't know that Kenpachi's current form has a different size and color from the other sealed sword. But now i think that it is possible that Kenpachi is in shikai form now. It's not the problem about him to call out his sword name. Even Ichigo can keep up his Shikai form without has to call out Zangetsu each time. The only doubt in my mind is will the sword keep up in shikai form if Kenpachi doesn't know his name? Because Ichigo still know the name even he didn't call out his name often.

[TheChosenOne]

^ One thing:

In all those examples, it's dead obvious. In fact, people DID confirm those things. Yoruichi said Urahara was a Captain (which is how we found out), she also said Ichigo had Shikai before the Bankai training, and the top 3 Espada were referred to as Espada by Aizen during the "HM Tea Party". In Isshin's case, no one else wears the Captain's hakama besides a captain, so what else could he be? An ex-cosplayer? :XD

I was responding to hollowdemon's statement of hearing it from Ken. As I was showing it in my examples, we don't always hear it from the person concerned. Sometime's we will get the info from a third party. It became dead obvious after someone stated it, no one knew Urahara was a captain, or Ichigo having shikai or being a vaizard. My excuse for Isshin was kinda illogical. :)


With Zaraki, it's ambiguous. We've seen others with swords that look weird while unreleased, like Mayuri's; the Databook may say his sword is released, but he doesn't know it's name and can't use it's powers; and to this day, as I've said before, he's only used it like a regular sword. So you can argue it either way, thanks to all the mixed messages and missing pieces.Mayuri's normal sword does not look any different, how does it look wierd. In the anime it's completely normal, it doesn't look wierd. We can't see a closeup in the manga. Ichigo also used his shikai as a regular sword, until he learned how to fire GT. :)

http://read.mangashare.com/manga-images/series/Bleach/122-011.jpg


Me, I think it could go either way. But my argument is that it's current state is irrelevant if he can't use it like an actual Shikai--just like Zangetsu's Shikai before Ichigo learned GetsuTen, though we KNOW that it's a Shikai. What bothers me is that people in both camps are so pent up about it. :/I don't think that a Zaraki could become a captain without even knowing shikai. Him becoming a captain without knowing bankai is understandable, since Ichigo was captain level (reiatsu) before knowing bankai. The only reasoning against him having shikai, is that he does not know his name. That doesn't have to be the requirement. While there are a lot of implications for him having shikai. :)

[gigantor21]

I was responding to hollowdemon's statement of hearing it from Ken. As I was showing it in my examples, we don't always hear it from the person concerned. Sometime's we will get the info from a third party. It became dead obvious after someone stated it, no one knew Urahara was a captain, or Ichigo having shikai or being a vaizard. My excuse for Isshin was kinda illogical. :)

Well, yeah, that's what I meant. Whether it's the person involved or the third party, it still has to be overt AND make sense within the story. None of those examples had any ambiguities--Zaraki's claim does. That's the point I was trying to make.


Mayuri's normal sword does not look any different, how does it look wierd. In the anime it's completely normal, it doesn't look wierd. We can't see a closeup in the manga. Ichigo also used his shikai as a regular sword, until he learned how to fire GT. :)

http://read.mangashare.com/manga-images/series/Bleach/122-011.jpg


They do show a close up in one of the recent chapters, when Mayuri unleashes his Bankai on Apollo. Instead of having a normal crossguard, Mayuri's sword has some bandaging with spikes sticking out of it. You can kind of see it there too. That's why the "not looking like a modified Asauchi" argument is spotty to me. :/


I don't think that a Zaraki could become a captain without even knowing shikai. Him becoming a captain without knowing bankai is understandable, since Ichigo was captain level (reiatsu) before knowing bankai. The only reasoning against him having shikai, is that he does not know his name. That doesn't have to be the requirement. While there are a lot of implications for him having shikai. :)

Aizen can use double the captain's reiatsu without his Shikai, and bring an Espada to his knees with it. Renji had Bankai when he first fought Byakuya, but couldn't hit his captain even once. Hanatarou has a Shikai himself, but was still crippled under Zaraki's spirit pressure. So the release state isn't very indicative of individual talent--even when you isolate the captains, the range in power and skill is huge, even though they all have Bankai (besides Zaraki).

So, yeah, it may be that Zaraki's sword is in Shikai. But he could just have so much reiatsu that he doesn't need a Shikai to stand among the captains--after all, he killed his predecessor without knowing the sword's name, and got a draw against someone who only knew Shikai. Again, we don't know either way.

[Neuroff]

The databook specifically says that Kenpachi's sword is in shikai, and njt confirmed that he translated that. I don't see what there is to argue about.

[MegaX]

And I'm pretty sure it isn't that Kenpachi has so much reiatsu that it doesn't matter if he seals it or not, but that he has so much (and so little control) that he can't even seal it in the first place.

[TheChosenOne]

I doubt he could seal it even if he has the control, since Ichigo can't seal it with his control. It's always released for a reason, so I doubt control makes a difference. :)

[Decorus]

"Not just Zangetsu all soul cutters have two levels of release."

"The first one is called initial release, the second one is the Ban Release"

I know exactly what I'm talking about either Kenpachi's sword is in Bankei or thats its normal form completely unreleased.

Databooks as I have stated are unreliable to use as evidence as they may say they were written by the Author of the Manga, buts its highly doubtful that is true.

"This is the only form of my sword I didn't put any seal on it."

Kenpachi obviously knows absolutely nothing about how they work. The seals are not placed by the user. Then when you have Zangetsu's conversation where he dislikes being treated like Kenpachi treats his sword, its fairly evident that Kenpachi has a perfectly ordinary if unique shaped soul cutter. It has yet to be released at all.

[xVinhX]

i think the Bleach Official Character Book SOULS states that even though Kenpachi does not know his soul slayer's name, its constantly in the released state (shikai) because of his immense spiritual power. But please correct me if im wrong

[TheChosenOne]

Some dont believe databook as a credible source for info. I agree with ken having shikai, not based on the databooks but with manga implying him having shikai. The databooks just reinforce the point. :)

[henrikoez]

So zanpakutou can stay in Shikai form even the user forget its name? I thought that Ichigo can do keep his Shikai because he still know Zangetsu's name.

[TheChosenOne]

Its not stated how you achieve shikai in the manga. We have only seen ichigo do it by calling out its name, maybe it could be like ken sheer the sword turns shikai when the user reaches a specific level of power. :)

It could be like
normal katana > shikai > gradually knowing the name > materialization > bankai. :)
or it could be
normal katana > knowing the name > shikai > materialization > bankai.

The first possibilty would make ichigo special since he did it differently, could be cu of him being a vaizard. The second will make ken special, but makes no sense, since he is not the main character. :)

[henrikoez]

I see. Ichigo is an exception indeed. He doesn't need to call out his Zanpakutou's name to do the Shikai. Let's assume Kenpachi know what he is talking about about the seal, does it means it is in Shikai form because it can recover itself after broken down?

[TheChosenOne]

Well that could be a reason. Since we dont see bankai being broken, so shikai healing is a factor. We have seen it, with ikkaku, renji, ken and ichigo. Ikkaku's after being broken, turned into its normal form (also cuz he lost consiousness). Renji's shikai can be seen healing after its fight with ichigo. Ichigo's sword also healed after ken pierced it. But renji and ichigo had obtained materialization, so that could be a factor for healing. Ken obviously dont have materialization, so that could be a hole. Or you dont need materialization to heal, it does it after some time. :)

[ZeroPatience]

I doubt he could seal it even if he has the control, since Ichigo can't seal it with his control. It's always released for a reason, so I doubt control makes a difference. :)

Ichigo's reisatsu is nothing when compared to Yammamoto's or Aizen's initially (probably isn't now either) they seem to seal with no problem. I think the issue is that both Ichigo and Kenpachi don't really have much control. Their reiatsu seems to be pretty much always flowing out. Kenpachi seemed to just be a wanderer with little to no training as a Shinigami. In fact I got the impression that he pretty much turned up, challenged a Captain and killed him rather than being enrolled with the Shinigami and working his way through the ranks (can you even imagine Ken working his way through the ranks?)

Ichigo just all of a sudden became a Shinigami, he probably achieved Shikai and Bankai quicker than almost anyone else so control isn't something he's all that familiar with either. In fact it's something he's famous for not having, look at the spirit balls they used to break into the Shinigami Compound (<< this has got a name right? XD my mind has gone blank) in soul society, he had loads of trouble controling his reiatsu to make it. Also when they recently went into Hueco Mundo and they had to make a path with their reiatsu, his was crumbling away. His control, to be blunt, sucks.

--

Anyway, none of the arguments that it is not Shikai are convincing me at all. All the evidence in the manga and databook points towards it being a Shikai. Truly I consider it fact. Honestly I don't care if I had written the databook. Do you think Kubo would just let me hand it to the publishers without checking I got the facts right? He would most certainly check it if he didn't write it and the odds of him missing something as important as Kenpachi's Zanpaktou being in Shikai are slim to say the least. This is assuming he didn't write it as he is credited with having written it. Ignoring the fact it is said in the manga anyway (I don't see how it is interperated as otherwise?), the databook alone should be enough proof.

- ZP

[TheChosenOne]

Thats why I said that control most likely dont make a difference with their shikai. Its fulltime released for a reason, cuz of their immense reiatsu. They can't seal it back to its normal form. :)

[henrikoez]

i don't know about the relationship between the zanpakutou healing ability with it has reached shikai or bankai because all the cases with Ichigo, Renji, and Ikkaku are connected with them already achieved bankai. I don't know about shikai. But i think the zanpakutou will be just like a normal katana if he/she hasn't achieved shikai. Just like Ichigo took Rukia's zanpakutou, it won't restore back after being cut into two by Byakuya. So i think the zanpakutou can't be restored back only after he/she has achieved Shikai. :guns

So for now, i think Kenpachi is in Shikai. :darn
What do you think? Does it make any sense?

[TheChosenOne]

Well ikkaku and renji and also ichigo at the time of healing, they did not have bankai. So that means it will most likely heal in bankai as well since renji's bankai was healed. :)

[henrikoez]

Well, i think shikai is also a factor that make a Zanpakutou can be restored back after broken. Since Ichigo's sword was back to one piece after he can do the Shikai in Urahara's training. So Kenpachi is in Shikai too, if not, his sword won't be restored back by itself. :kenya

[TheChosenOne]

Agreed:)
we dont see a normal sword being healed after it injury. Since like u said ichigo's sword was still broken when he was training with urahara before he got shikai. So the healing factor only kicks in when your sword is in shikai or greater. :)

[henrikoez]

yeah, another strong evidence. This forum really helps me to think more :XD
So, Kenpachi's status now is in Shikai from because of the restoration ability and words form Kenpachi himself. Why do I not think about it before? :2arrow

[ZeroPatience]

Thats why I said that control most likely dont make a difference with their shikai. Its fulltime released for a reason, cuz of their immense reiatsu. They can't seal it back to its normal form. :)

Urr but isn't that the opposite of what I said? I'm saying they can't seal it not because of their immense reiatsu but because of their lack of control. Because people like Aizen and Yammamoto have immense reiatsu and seal no problem.

- ZP

[TheChosenOne]

Urr but isn't that the opposite of what I said? I'm saying they can't seal it not because of their immense reiatsu but because of their lack of control. Because people like Aizen and Yammamoto have immense reiatsu and seal no problem.

- ZP

Aizen and Yamma's reiatsu might be calm and tempered since they have mastered the skills of shinigami. While Ichigo and Ken's are just crazy all over the place kind, which fits their character. :)

[MegaX]

Urr but isn't that the opposite of what I said? I'm saying they can't seal it not because of their immense reiatsu but because of their lack of control. Because people like Aizen and Yammamoto have immense reiatsu and seal no problem.

- ZP

I don't think the two are entirely unrelated. Couldn't it be that it's, in part, due to their naturally high reiatsu that they have trouble controlling it as opposed to experienced Shinigami like Aizen and Yamma who, while probably starting out with a high amount, likely generated a good portion of their capacity through hard work and experience?

[Frostman]

i really didn't want to join just for this but i couldn't resist.

Wow i really don't understand how, ichigo's conversation with Yourochi, can mean anything but Zaraki being stuck in his released form. The first half of the conversation was all about Ichigo being stuck in his shikai and being the same as Zaraki. When yourochi says "than" the conversation moves on to being about bankai, which takes up the next page .

About the argument about the shikai form changing from the unreleased form. Hitsuguya is a good example of minimal changes. All it gains is that thing at the end of the hilt. An even better example is the much forgotten Tousen. He has two release commands for his shikai, but his actual zanpakutou doesn't change for either. All they are are shikai abilities. So if Zaraki learns the name and release command for his sword, he could just end up having abilities and no change in the sword.

I think this is in repose to the argument taken from the other forum. Unless the hidden medicine in his shikai counts as an ability, Ikkaku does not have a shikai ability. Also Renji lacks any shikai abilities too. So it is defiantly possible to be in shikai without any abilities.

So what i think is, due to Zaraki's high rietsu and lack of control, zaraki's zanpakutou is forced into it's initial release. Just like Ichigo. Once he learns it's name and learns to work with it, Ken will become considerably stronger and be able to use an ability capable of destroying everything!

[ZeroPatience]

I don't think the two are entirely unrelated. Couldn't it be that it's, in part, due to their naturally high reiatsu that they have trouble controlling it as opposed to experienced Shinigami like Aizen and Yamma who, while probably starting out with a high amount, likely generated a good portion of their capacity through hard work and experience?

Yes, it's like if a newborn had the body of an adult. They wouldn't know how to do anything an adult can, while someone who had gone through the normal processes of becoming an adult would know all those things. Or if you becamse Superman all of a sudden, you wouldn't be able to cope with his powers as well as the real guy and probably run into a lot of walls XD

Yeah not the best of analogies there but I do so love my analogies ;)

Also completely agree with Frostman. Except I'm not sure if you can count the ability Renji used against Aizen as a Shikai abiltiy.

- ZP

[TheChosenOne]

I think Renji's shikai does have an ability. His dividing shikai and extending it is the ability. He has no attacks like GT, but Ichigo only has GT, if he didn't his shikai wouldn't have any abilities. :)

[Frostman]

I forgot about that attack, but still, Ikkaku lacks any shikai abilities. That could be because he is a brute.

[Ichimaru Gin n Tonic]

If i'm not mistaken, Ikkaku's shikai have a similar ability to Renji's. At the mention of "nobiro!", his swords turns into a three-section staff that can extend, separate and reconnect at will.

But, we are talking about Zaraki Kenpachi in this thread, so let's not stray from the main topic, shall we?

[dreamzsai]

When i watched the Kenpachi vs Ichigo battle, and see Kenpachi talking about his sword having no name and such, it gives me the feeling that what he say isnt the truth.
In fact, it implied to me that he is being sarcastic, "Yea, so what if i dont know my Shikai? Do u think you can beat me just because of that? Dont look down on me, i can beat you without knowing Shikai"
Then after "losing" to Ichigo, he starts asking his sword, and got me to feel "I've never thought of fighting with the compliment of my sword's abilities, please tell me your name, i wanna learn more, get stronger!"

But then, the databook comes and say that he is in "fulltime release mode", it kinda made me disappointed, but if that's how the author wants to put it, then i guess i'll accept it.
And hopefully he does something to Kenpachi in the future to prove/provide solid facts to show that he is indeed in "fulltime release".
Or maybe he'll change it in the future to say otherwise =P

[patedecarne]

well, if zaraki really has shikai or not we will find out in the following weeks, and maybe after that all of the topics about zaraki and his sword will be dead for the god's sake, for each 10 topics in bleach, 8 are about zaraki, hehe!

[henrikoez]

well, zaraki is one of the interesting character in Bleach indeed. Now i'm pretty convinced that Kenpachi is in Shikai form now based on some evidences like the ability of Zanpakutou to restore back, databook, and some words from Yoruichi, Ichigo, and Kenpachi himself. Let's hope Kenpachi will show his bankai so we will know the truth soon.

[ZeroPatience]

When i watched the Kenpachi vs Ichigo battle, and see Kenpachi talking about his sword having no name and such, it gives me the feeling that what he say isnt the truth.
In fact, it implied to me that he is being sarcastic, "Yea, so what if i dont know my Shikai? Do u think you can beat me just because of that? Dont look down on me, i can beat you without knowing Shikai"
Then after "losing" to Ichigo, he starts asking his sword, and got me to feel "I've never thought of fighting with the compliment of my sword's abilities, please tell me your name, i wanna learn more, get stronger!"

Yeah his sword does have a name, he was just saying he hadn't ever had any sort of contact with his sword (like Ichigo had with Zangetsu) I'm not sure if he really believed it had no name, as much as he had just never communicated with it. Unlike all the other shinigami (afaik) Kenpachi is the only one that doesn't fight with his sword as he views it as just an instrument to cut people. In fact you may notice Ichigo is getting his ass handed to him by Kenpachi but he asks Zangetsu for help and along with the power of Zangetsu he defeats Kenpachi. It makes Ken's line about asking for his swords help in the future all the more meaningful.

- ZP

[patedecarne]

I, in the other hand(and maybe the only one here...) think that zaraki is one of the most uninteresting chars ever created; IMO, he suffers from a horrible development, his fighting reason are totally crap , Still cannot believe how yammamoto accepted him as a captain, still IS UNCLEAR that he has shikai(don't count databook, because I read Bleach manga, not Bleach Databook, and what yoruichi, ichigo said such thing don't mean nothing until zaraki himself said" now I will show the power of my shikai") and certainly he won't get bankai, but anyway, kubo is not very good to develop characters...

[henrikoez]

Not every mangaka can do a really good character development. There is one famous manga that lacks character development too, i won't mention the title but this manga is popular. Kenpachi Zaraki is interesting in my opinion and the topic about his Zanpakutou is quite good. But I know that the thread for this topic is too many. :XD Let's see the outcome if Kubo willing to tell that.

[TheChosenOne]

Still cannot believe how yammamoto accepted him as a captain

Cuz Kenpachi challenged the 11th captain and killed him. Thus he became a captain. Yoruichi also says that his fighting skills are so great that the SS could not ignore it. :)


still IS UNCLEAR that he has shikai(don't count databook, because I read Bleach manga, not Bleach Databook, and what yoruichi, ichigo said such thing don't mean nothing until zaraki himself said" now I will show the power of my shikai") and certainly he won't get bankai, but anyway, kubo is not very good to develop characters...

We can't wait for him to say it outright, then we wouldn't not anything. Yoruichi and Ichigo's conversation was about Ichigo having full-shikai, why would Zaraki be brought in if he is not the same. His shikai heals itself, we have not seen a normal zanpaktou do that, Ichigo's zanpak didn't heal itself when Byakuya cut it in half. While His shikai healed after being pierced by Zaraki. Same with Zaraki, his swords was cut in half, and it healed. So the healing factor is for shikai and above. Why can't he get bankai, don't know where you bring this logic from. :)

[MegaX]

I, in the other hand(and maybe the only one here...) think that zaraki is one of the most uninteresting chars ever created; IMO, he suffers from a horrible development, his fighting reason are totally crap , Still cannot believe how yammamoto accepted him as a captain, still IS UNCLEAR that he has shikai(don't count databook, because I read Bleach manga, not Bleach Databook, and what yoruichi, ichigo said such thing don't mean nothing until zaraki himself said" now I will show the power of my shikai") and certainly he won't get bankai, but anyway, kubo is not very good to develop characters...

Honestly, fighting because you get a rush from the adrenaline in addition to a lust for blood and a love of competition... that's actually not a bad motivation for someone sufficiently touched in the head, which Kenpachi is.

[dreamzsai]

Honestly i dont think he will ever get to his Bankai, else he might be overkill and too powerful.
I believe we need no explanation or examples on how strong Kenpachi is and so, if Bankai(like what Youruichi said) increases ones' ability from five times to ten times, then Kenpachi would kinda own everyone in the Bleach universe.

[ZeroPatience]

Honestly i dont think he will ever get to his Bankai, else he might be overkill and too powerful.
I believe we need no explanation or examples on how strong Kenpachi is and so, if Bankai(like what Youruichi said) increases ones' ability from five times to ten times, then Kenpachi would kinda own everyone in the Bleach universe.

Not really, since Aizen parried Renji's attack and stopped Ichigo's sword (while in Bankai) WITH HIS HAND without even releasing. While Ichigo defeated Kenpachi with his Shikai. Ok Ichigo was tired but Aizen still deflected two attacks at once from a Shikai and Bankai. Point being there are still terrifically powerful people in Bleach. Besides I expect we will see his Bankai eventually. There's no way we're not going to see the Bankai of such an important character before the end of Bleach. It would be like killing off an Espada without seeing his/her release - it's just not going to happen (I will post a video of me eating a hat if it does happen).

Still yet to hear a convincing argument for why Ken is not in Shikai though. If you consider what they say in the manga as being able to take it either way (personally I think they say quite clearly in the manga & anime that he is in perma Shikai) surely the databook would seal the deal. Otherwise your saying that what was said in the manga can be misinterpreted as him having a full time Shikai and they also just happened to make a mistake in the databook as well. Pffft.


well, if zaraki really has shikai or not we will find out in the following weeks, and maybe after that all of the topics about zaraki and his sword will be dead for the god's sake, for each 10 topics in bleach, 8 are about zaraki, hehe!

Hopefully they will re-state it in the manga, I would have thought they would considering the focus on the fight with Kenpachi. Until then though, this is the designated topic for discussing Zaraki and his shikai so I will continue trying to convert people ;) Also I am going through Bleach withdrawal so I have to get my fix somehow.

- ZP

[Decorus]

Actually they don't state in the Manga clearly that Kenpachi is in Shikai as she never answered Ichigo's question, but rather ignored it.

[TheChosenOne]

Well since the whole convo is about full time shikai's I doubt Kenpachi was mentioned for the heck of it. The data book clarifies his shikai, and the manga implies it twice. :)

[patedecarne]

Soon we will have this answer for sure, because, IMO, after his fight with noitora, kenpachi will rest for a while in the series, because there's so many captains and others(vaizard, Isshin, Urahara, ect) who needs the fight seriously, so my wild guess is that will be his last fight for a long, long time, and if he has shikai, bankai or wherever, we will know for sure in this fight, because usually in the last fight in many mangas and animes, the person show all of his secrets and skills, like an explanation of the powers too...

[gigantor21]

^ Kubo won't show everything here. Zaraki still has room to grow. That's most likely in your scenario--a long break means more training time, and more bonding time with his sword. He'd come correct in the next fight, Bankai or not, so that's when Kubo would go for broke.

Zaraki better know the sword's name already. Then he can USE his Shikai on Nori, and we can go on with our lives. :p

[mestizo311]

^ Kubo won't show everything here. Zaraki still has room to grow. That's most likely in your scenario--a long break means more training time, and more bonding time with his sword. He'd come correct in the next fight, Bankai or not, so that's when Kubo would go for broke.

Zaraki better know the sword's name already. Then he can USE his Shikai on Nori, and we can go on with our lives. :p

I agree. But I have a strange feeling that most of us will be let down because this whole thing has been drawn out for too long. Kubo better have thought of something amazing to have kept Zaraki out of the picture for so long.

[blckmarvl]

My two cents on Kenpachis Shiki:

First I think it should be noted that Kenpachi in all things spiritual doesnt know what the f*** hes talking about. He never knows wheres hes going becuase he cant sense spiritual pressure, he cant flash step, and doesnt know any kido.

Kenpachi says: I never put a seal on it. I
First, they come sealed, but because hes never gone through all that how would he know? Not to mention his sword has always been like that even in flashbacks.

Kenpachi has too much power so it started in shikai:
I seriously doubt he has more than Aizen and he doesnt have a problem sealing his.
And Ichigo has the same problem controlling his Monstrous Reitsu hence his sword being huge. And it was stated if they didnt control it they would be the size of sky scrapers and that was in sealed form. And thats for ppl that dont have as much Reiatsu as Kenpachi.

The name issue:
EVERYBODY ELSE seems to know the name of their sword, regardless if they have a command or not. And EVERYBODY ELSE seems to have an ability once they learn the name of their Zanpakuto. It seems communication is the real requirement for Shikai and Kenpachi is exceptionally inept at it.


I just read the most interesting thing on Wikipedia, the worst source for information:
They claim the sword is full time released but because he doesnt know its name its power is inaccessible. You know i think that should satisfy both parties on the argument. It does me.

[TheChosenOne]

First I think it should be noted that Kenpachi in all things spiritual doesnt know what the f*** hes talking about. He never knows wheres hes going becuase he cant sense spiritual pressure, he cant flash step, and doesnt know any kido.

Considering Zaraki knew that tousen and Komma was hiding their reiatsu, I think he can sense it. He doesn't have a sense of direction. :)


I just read the most interesting thing on Wikipedia, the worst source for information:
They claim the sword is full time released but because he doesnt know its name its power is inaccessible. You know i think that should satisfy both parties on the argument. It does me.

That statement would bring up the argument that since he does not know how to use it, it's not shikai, while at the same time it's a full time released shikai. Personally I believe that he is in shikai. Like Giga21 said, patience is a virtue, we will have to wait and see the upcoming chapters, so we can finally end this discussion filled with ambiguousness . :)

[Yuuki~]

If it is on Shikai or not.. i think only the next upcoming chapters will really answer us.

I was reading all the discussion on this topic (took me a while) and i must say only one thing:

I know that the Databook is written by Kubo himself. And, in the moment Kubo wrote that "Zaraki's sword is always in Shikai" he made a mistake!

If i didn't understood all wrong, you archieve Shikai once you learn you Zanpakuto Name.
If Zaraki doesn't know his Zanpakuto name, how the hell would he be in Shikai mode? Ok, Ichigo is always in Shikai mode, but it is since the day he learned Zangetsu's name against Kisuke.

So thats what i think, i know a lot of people will not agree with it, and i'm not trying to say that someone is right or wrong, and also i'm not saying that it is or isn't in Shikai mode.

I just think it is a Mistake to state, in the start of the series, that the sword has two releases (Shikai and Bankai) and that you archieve the Shikai release once you learn your sword name, and then write in a databook that a guy who don't know his sword name has perma-Shikai mode! It just doesn't make sense!

Of course Kubo does the things the way he wants to. And of course that Zaraki's sword can be a exception in the Shikai-Rules, (what it seems to be) but it sure put us in a confusing situation.

But i hope things to be explained in the next upcoming chapters, just like TheChosenOne ^^

Cheers for you all ^^

[TheChosenOne]

If i didn't understood all wrong, you archieve Shikai once you learn you Zanpakuto Name.
If Zaraki doesn't know his Zanpakuto name, how the hell would he be in Shikai mode? Ok, Ichigo is always in Shikai mode, but it is since the day he learned Zangetsu's name against Kisuke.

Actually it's never stated in the manga that to activate shikai you need to know the name. Just cuz Ichigo did it like that does not mean the rest of the shinigami's use the same process. It could have been special just for Ichigo, since he is the main character. :)

It could be like Regular Katana > Shikai > learning the name > Materialization > Bankai. This could be how regular shingami's does it. :)

Where as Ichigo did Regular Katana > learning the name > Shikai > Materialization > Bankai. :)

[Yuuki~]

Actually it's never stated in the manga that to activate shikai you need to know the name. Just cuz Ichigo did it like that does not mean the rest of the shinigami's use the same process. It could have been special just for Ichigo, since he is the main character. :)

It could be like Regular Katana > Shikai > learning the name > Materialization > Bankai. This could be how regular shingami's does it. :)

Where as Ichigo did Regular Katana > learning the name > Shikai > Materialization > Bankai. :)

Yeah, i didn't take this possibility in my theory, so, my bad ^^

I agree, i assumed that the Name is directly related to the Shikai as it was for Ichigo, but Ichigo himself could be the exception.

So, forget what i just said, and thanks for turning things more clear to me!

Cheers ^^

[ZeroPatience]

They claim the sword is full time released but because he doesnt know its name its power is inaccessible. You know i think that should satisfy both parties on the argument. It does me.
That statement would bring up the argument that since he does not know how to use it, it's not shikai, while at the same time it's a full time released shikai. Personally I believe that he is in shikai. Like Giga21 said, patience is a virtue, we will have to wait and see the upcoming chapters, so we can finally end this discussion filled with ambiguousness . :)

As far as I am concerned this isn't about if he can use his Shikai ability, it's that the form of the sword is in its Shikai state; which I believe it is. The Wiki link isn't exactly new info ^_^ In fact I think I said in this thread (I know I have in others) that when Ichigo fought Ken, on that final strike, a big deal was made about Ichigo borrowing Zangetsu's power and fighting with Zangetsu, while Ken was just purely using his own.

- ZP

[TheChosenOne]

Ichigo did not know about Zangetsu abilities until bankai training, that doesn't mean that he wasn't in Shikai. The whole convo between Yoruichi and Ichigo was about full time shikai and bankai, why would Zaraki be included if he wasn't connected. :)

[patedecarne]

that's a thing doesn't make sense to me: When Yoruichi and Ichigo were talking, Yoruichi make an assumption that Zaraki's Zanpakutou was in permanent state of shikai, but how supposed yoruichi would know this fact even if Zaraki doesn't know nothing about his own sword?

[Neuroff]

By looking at it.

[patedecarne]

well, even if his sword had the same shape even before he joined Gotei 13? Wouldn't make much sense to just looking to a sword and make this kind of statement, if you doesn't know how is the sealed sword.. a little confusing here...

[TheChosenOne]

Most likely shinigami's at her position can tell, it doesn't matter how Yoruichi knew, the fact still is that she knew Ichigo's was full time shikai, and when Zaraki was mentioned she agreed, without saying yes. :)

[ZeroPatience]

Most likely shinigami's at her position can tell, it doesn't matter how Yoruichi knew, the fact still is that she knew Ichigo's was full time shikai, and when Zaraki was mentioned she agreed, without saying yes. :)

I agree with this. It makes sense that people with a fair knowledge of Shinigami would know the difference between Sealed, Shikai and Bankai. Let alone someone with the knowledge of Yoruichi, a previous captain.

- ZP

[TheChosenOne]

I don't think she is a previous captain, its stated that she was the head of the military. :)

[Zaraky696]

Soi Fong is the captain of the 2nd division, which is the previous place of Yoruichi.

About Zaraki sword, He used the same sword before entering the Gotei 13, never knew it name and Zangetsu told Ichigo that Zaraki's blade was crying because Zaraki wasn't fighting with his sword. After the fight, Zaraki realise he want to be stronger and ask for his zanpaktou name which didn't work. His overwhelming reiatsu which is his own, not the sword, is being ate by the eye patch over time beside of flowing out, which in some way is acting as a "seal" over time. Once he unleash the eye patch, he flow with all his power. Yachiru say Zaraki's sword is fully release, that's simple to explain since Zaraki never been able to talk with his zanpaktou, he can't have his shikai/bankai form which mean his zanpaktou is susposed to be fully released because they never seen another form. Zaraki has overwhelming IF someone he find out a way to talk with his zanpaktou, this would probly change everything. This has yet to come too.

So anyhow, until Zaraki find a way to talk with his zanpaktou, I say his sword isn't released. Time to see in the next couple chapter with his fight against the arrancar #5 if anything happen.

[patedecarne]

So anyhow, until Zaraki find a way to talk with his zanpaktou, I say his sword isn't released. Time to see in the next couple chapter with his fight against the arrancar #5 if anything happen.


Quoted for the totally true, that's what I'm talking about since the beginning, we still don't have ANY proof that Zaraki has Shikai, anAnd you explained very well and everything in his previous post; Now, try to explain that to all of the forum, about 99% of people that really believe Zaraki has shikai, that's the most difficult thing to do...

but like I said before, the real proof will come from and only from Kenpachi, the things yoruichi or any other person said are only "assumptions" and cannot be put as facts because the only one who can say something is Zaraki himself, aaffff...

[Hyperworm]

Soi Fong is the captain of the 2nd division, which is the previous place of Yoruichi.Soi Fong is Captain of the 2nd Squad and also happens to be the Supreme Commander (総司令官) of the Secret Mobile Corps (隠密機動), which was Yoruichi's old position. The two roles have never been implied to be bound together. Yoruichi was never a captain.
(Yoruichi not being an ex-captain is explicitly stated in the answer to a quiz question towards the end of Karaburi+, Bleach Official Bootleg, which is written by Kubo.)

I have opinions on Zaraki, but we're almost certainly going to find out soon enough anyway, so...

[Zaraky696]

Seem like Yoruichi was only in the special Op while Urahara was in Gotei 13.

Anyhow, like I said for Zaraki zanpaktou, the only reason people say it's in shikai form is because it's the only form of it zanpaktou that everyone ever saw. Zangetsu said the sword was crying because Zaraki and it wasn't fighting together. Zaraki, with his full strengh, only think of his sword as a mere fighting tool. It has no seal since Zaraki reiatsu is too strong to put any seal on it. So, actualy, it is not a shikai form but only a mere zanpaktou with no release form at all. IF he become able to talk with his zanpaktou, then there will probably be a chance for him to put a seal on his sword to make Shikai. Then improve to bankai. This has yet to come so far too.

About Yachiru saying, She say that Ichigo's blade is as good as a Bladeless sword against Zaraki's spirit force. Unless she talk more about Ichigo's sword and Zaraki's sword later on. I don't feel like doing the whole manga just to find that.

[Tsukisama]

Soi Fong is Captain of the 2nd Squad and also happens to be the Supreme Commander (総司令官) of the Secret Mobile Corps (隠密機動), which was Yoruichi's old position. The two roles have never been implied to be bound together. Yoruichi was never a captain.
(Yoruichi not being an ex-captain is explicitly stated in the answer to a quiz question towards the end of Karaburi+, Bleach Official Bootleg, which is written by Kubo.)


It is actually also mentioned in the manga that Yoruichi was a member of the 1st Squad as general of the Keigun Brigade, meaning she obviously was not captain of the 2nd squad, but most people forget about that statement.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/118/08/

[Neuroff]

Seem like Yoruichi was only in the special Op while Urahara was in Gotei 13.

Anyhow, like I said for Zaraki zanpaktou, the only reason people say it's in shikai form is because it's the only form of it zanpaktou that everyone ever saw. Zangetsu said the sword was crying because Zaraki and it wasn't fighting together. Zaraki, with his full strengh, only think of his sword as a mere fighting tool. It has no seal since Zaraki reiatsu is too strong to put any seal on it. So, actualy, it is not a shikai form but only a mere zanpaktou with no release form at all. IF he become able to talk with his zanpaktou, then there will probably be a chance for him to put a seal on his sword to make Shikai. Then improve to bankai. This has yet to come so far too.

About Yachiru saying, She say that Ichigo's blade is as good as a Bladeless sword against Zaraki's spirit force. Unless she talk more about Ichigo's sword and Zaraki's sword later on. I don't feel like doing the whole manga just to find that.
It's in the DATABOOK that it has shikai form.

[Zaraky696]

I don't give a crap about the databook. It's not in the manga, so too bad. If you base your stuff on databook and other stuff, then too bad for you. Until they say it in the MANGA, there has no proof of Zaraki's zanpaktou being in shikai form and even IF it was in shikai form, he could do bankai, which he can't as for now. So unless he does his bankai, it's not shikai.

[TheChosenOne]

What was the purpose of the conversation between yoruichi and ichigo ? It was about a shikai and bankai and she pointed out that ichigo's was a full time shikai, now why would zaraki be mentioned in conversation of full time shikai if he is not connected. The databook is a credible source, but I agree its lot the primary source the manga is. The manga has indirectly stated that zaraki is in full time shikai. :)

[Zaraky696]

Ichigo say it's like Zaraki Kenpachi because Zaraki said that it was the only form to his sword. Ichigo didn't know crap about shikai or bankai. Yoruichi never agreed or anything to this. She said there was another release form for EVERY Soul Cutter. To become a captain, you need to know both form, at one exception, Zaraki Kenpachi, His raw strengh was no match for the previous 11th captain. If it was realy shikai form, I don't think Zaraki would beg out to know his zanpaktou name after fighting Ichigo since he would already know it because you need to be able to talk to your zanpaktou and synchronize with it.

Anyhow, you can believe watcha want. Until the manga say clearly that Zaraki's zanpaktou is a shikai, Zaraki will be able to use Ban-kai, time to see if the manga will let us on ignorance or not.

[Neuroff]

I don't give a crap about the databook. It's not in the manga, so too bad. If you base your stuff on databook and other stuff, then too bad for you. Until they say it in the MANGA, there has no proof of Zaraki's zanpaktou being in shikai form and even IF it was in shikai form, he could do bankai, which he can't as for now. So unless he does his bankai, it's not shikai.
The databook is written by Kubo, acting like it doesn't exist makes absolutely no sense. And Kenpachi says, "This is the only form of my sword. I didn't put any seal on it. This... is the true form of my zanpakutou." No seal, true form = shikai.

[TheChosenOne]

Ichigo say it's like Zaraki Kenpachi because Zaraki said that it was the only form to his sword. Ichigo didn't know crap about shikai or bankai.

Ichigo said it's like zaraki cuz he and zaraki didnt put a seal on their swords. That is why ichigo compared it with zaraki. :)


I don't think Zaraki would beg out to know his zanpaktou name after fighting Ichigo since he would already know it because you need to be able to talk to your zanpaktou and synchronize with it.

Its never stated in the manga that you need to know the name if the zanoak to achieve shikai, ichigo doing it could be a specialcase cuz he is the main character, the other shinigami's could have most likely found out the name after shikai. Syncro and knowledge are factors for materialization. :)

[Zaraky696]

Its never stated in the manga that you need to know the name if the zanoak to achieve shikai, ichigo doing it could be a specialcase cuz he is the main character, the other shinigami's could have most likely found out the name after shikai. Syncro and knowledge are factors for materialization. :)

I went for the trouble to find it for you. Chapter 127, page 5. Zaraki has no communication or synchronization with his zanpaktou, which mean it's not a shikai. His sword won't even talk to him, so it's impossible. Even Ichigo had communication before achieving Shikai, synchronization to release the attack and materialization and submission to attain Bankai.

EDIT: Second part deleted for blatantly insulting tone. -Gigantor21

[TheChosenOne]

I went for the trouble to find it for you. Chapter 127, page 5. Zaraki has no communication or synchronization with his zanpaktou, which mean it's not a shikai. His sword won't even talk to him, so it's impossible. Even Ichigo had communication before achieving Shikai, synchronization to release the attack and materialization and submission to attain Bankai.

Can you find me the page where it states that communication and synchro is needed for achieving shikai. The fact that there is no seal, means it's full time released. If there was a seal it would go back to be a regular katana, no seal means it's always released. Ichigo didn't know how to materialize the sword, that's why he needed the doll. :)

[MChief]

I remembered something just now. In Chapter 50 after ichigo's fight with menos grande ichigo's zanpaktou becouse of huge amount of power started changing(that time it was reminding his shikai a little) but ishida stopped it. Maybe kenpachi's zanpaktou changed into shikai that way, without knowing its name

it's my first post on this forum so i'm saying hello to everyone

[TheChosenOne]

I remembered something just now. In Chapter 50 after ichigo's fight with menos grande ichigo's zanpaktou becouse of huge amount of power started changing(that time it was reminding his shikai a little) but ishida stopped it. Maybe kenpachi's zanpaktou changed into shikai that way, without knowing its name

it's my first post on this forum so i'm saying hello to everyone

I thought that was just zanpaktou changing form cuz Ichigo could not control his reiatsu, I never thought it was actually changing into shikai. It's plausible that Zaraki went through the same thing, but he says that the current sword is it's true form, so most likely it's been like that. :)

Side Note: Welcome to MH. :)

[Zaraky696]

Ichigo's zanpaktou had too much spirit pressure on it to hold. The chapter 49(I think) once Ichigo's spirit pressure goes up to fight the Menos, Ishida talk about the "resonance". This seemed more like his zanpaktou crying to me then a shikai. Mainly like Kenpachi's zanpaktou crying while fighting Ichigo. And actually, Ichigo never had talked to Zangetsu even though Zangetsu seemed to try to talk to him. He only heard the name after becoming a true shinigami and being pushed by Urahaha.

[Cyven]

the question I asked quite a few pages back hasn't been answered yet so I'll ask it again...


How did Zaraki get his sword?

I mean let's look at it this way:
when Hitsugaya, Matsumoto, Gin, Renji, Rukia, Yachiru and Momo lived in Rukongai, for example, they didn't have a zanpakuto yet. However when they entered the academy, they received one. Apparently everyone receives the same type of zanpakuto, a sword with the possibility to draw out the power of your soul (basing this on the Hitsugaya flashback chapter: He already dreamed of Hyourinmaru's material form and had ice-related abilities before he even had a zanpakuto) and depending on your own ability and synchronization with it (or your own soul, if you wanna get deeper into it) you achieve shikai/bankai.

However, Zaraki already had his zanpakuto while he lived in rukongai
I wonder where he got that sword from, since almost everyone else seems to get it when they learn to become shinigami. (some exceptions I can think of are Ikkaku and Ichigo). If Zaraki got his zanpakuto differently (he might have arrived in rukongai with it for all we know) it might work differently from other zanpakuto too. If this is the case then not knowing the name might not be an issue. Maybe his particular zanpakuto just requires a certain level of power.

[Hyperworm]

It is actually also mentioned in the manga that Yoruichi was a member of the 1st Squad as general of the Keigun Brigade, meaning she obviously was not captain of the 2nd squad, but most people forget about that statement.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/118/08/Not that I have a point to make or anything, but just for your information, that's mistranslated (or at least, not clear enough).
The original text is 同第一分隊『刑軍』総括軍団長. That line actually means "and General Corps Commander of the 1st Squad thereof, 'Keigun'...", i.e. Onmitsukidou is split into squads itself (there are five in total). Yoruichi was never in the Gotei 13 at all, she's Onmitsukidou-only.

Back on topic ... That ch127 page5 quote by Yoruichi is a pretty powerful reason for thinking Zaraki's Zanpakutou is not in Shikai ... one possible explanation is that you only need those things to obtain Shikai or Bankai, and that they have no relevance to Zaraki, whose Zanpakutou is in full-time release anyway?
I side with the databook on this one, by the way; I see no sensible reason whatsoever to think it's unofficial, so it's as good as word straight in the manga for me. Nevertheless there are still gaps that need filling. :|

[gigantor21]

You know...I really don't get why it's just in the databook.

Yes, it's still official, but why couldn't Kubo write that into the manga itself? You'd think it'd be important enough for that much. It's not like someone's full name or favorite food, which is all I expect to discover in a reference work. It shouldn't be a tool which fills plot holes the author skipped.

Again, Zaraki doesn't the sword like a shikai, so I don't think it's that important. But it still should've been covered in the actual work.

[Neuroff]

You know...I really don't get why it's just in the databook.

Yes, it's still official, but why couldn't Kubo write that into the manga itself? You'd think it'd be important enough for that much. It's not like someone's full name or favorite food, which is all I expect to discover in a reference work. It shouldn't be a tool which fills plot holes the author skipped.

Again, Zaraki doesn't the sword like a shikai, so I don't think it's that important. But it still should've been covered in the actual work.
I would think almost everyone in Japan already assumed that it's in shikai.

[gigantor21]

^ Either way, assuming and knowing are very different things.

Many assume, for instance, that Aizen is stronger than all of the Espada, by a huge margin. Others believe he's just slightly above Primera: others think he's nothing special, and leans on KS to get by. All of that is theory. But if it's something like, say, Ichigo having Bankai, then no one would question that. It was stated right in the manga.

Had Kubo stated that Zaraki had Shikai in the manga, there wouldn't be 200+ replies in this thread.

[patedecarne]

The people must understand: while one could argue saying that Zaraki is in Shikai, that's just an assumption, and assumption ISN'T Proof, and you guys who believe Zaraki is in Shikai should learn this before: Zaraky696 gave you all the proof, it's clearly stated if you don't know the name of his sword, then it can't be released, And Gigantor21 said a very important thing: if Zaraki really has Shikai , then why this discussion?

The problem is so many people are taking as a proof what yoruichi said, but besides, anyone here could bring us another proof?No, because there's no proof Zaraki has Shikai, period.

But to all of the people that believe Zaraki is in Shikai, I will just ask only thing: Give us Proof, only a proof that Zaraki is in shikai , but please, don't use yoruichi as proof because it ISN'T, nor even databook, because MANGA is a proof, and like many here only think in the manga as a canon, then is in manga I really want to see the proof , not superficial proof or assumptions, but a solid proof, and when it happens, we will really accept Zaraki and his shikai, but only with the real and solid proof...

[TheChosenOne]

Zaraky696 gave you all the proof, it's clearly stated if you don't know the name of his sword, then it can't be released

There is no statement in the manga that states you need to know the name of the sword to achieve shikai. The only thing we know about the zanpak is that you need to achieve materialization for bankai. Ichigo learning the name of his sword does not mean that everyone does it the same way. Ichigo's way could be special cuz of him being the main character. :)


But to all of the people that believe Zaraki is in Shikai, I will just ask only thing: Give us Proof, only a proof that Zaraki is in shikai , but please, don't use yoruichi as proof because it ISN'T, nor even databook, because MANGA is a proof, and like many here only think in the manga as a canon, then is in manga I really want to see the proof , not superficial proof or assumptions, but a solid proof, and when it happens, we will really accept Zaraki and his shikai, but only with the real and solid proof...Zaraki stated that he didn't put no seal on his sword, which means it's constantly released. We know that Zaraki does not have a bankai, so that leaves shikai and a regular katana. Now Ichigo also did not put any seal that is why he has a full time shikai, so from Ichigo's state, we can see the Zaraki has shikai. :)

We have not seen regular zanpaktou heal themselves after being broken. Ichigo's zanpak did not heal after being broken by Byakuya. But we have seen shikai heal it self, we saw it with Zangetsu during Ichigo's fight against Ken and we also saw it with Kenpachi after Ichigo's fight. Ken's sword was clearly broken, then it was healed when kenpachi was talking to Orihime. We saw it with Renji after his fight with Ichigo. So we can see that healing is a factor for shikai and above. :)

[Hyperworm]

patedecarne: I agree that if you don't accept the databook as canon, more proof is definitely required to say convincingly one way or the other; there are holes in both theories. Without the databook, there are some problems... Kenpachi is never mentioned as having Shikai even when there's ample opportunity, Yoruichi never confirms that Kenpachi's Zanpakutou is an "always-released" type... and the stuff below about "dialogue" etc:


Zaraky696 gave you all the proof, it's clearly stated if you don't know the name of his sword, then it can't be releasedNo, it isn't. He gave us a page saying "like-mindedness" and "dialogue"(as in "conversation") are required "for Shikai" (whatever "for Shikai" means; it's ambiguous, see my post above). It doesn't say a name is required. (Though it wouldn't make things much worse for the Shikai argument if it did, since the "dialogue" part needs resolving anyway... and according to Zangetsu, Kenpachi doesn't even have "like-mindedness", because Kenpachi's Zanpakutou "doesn't trust him" - see Kenpachi-Ichigo battle...)

And Gigantor21 said a very important thing: if Kenpachi really has Shikai , then why this discussion?No, he didn't. He did not say this discussion wouldn't have 200 replies if Kenpachi has Shikai, he said it wouldn't have 200 replies if Kubo told us explicitly in the manga that Kenpachi has Shikai.

I still want to know why people don't consider the databook canon. "It's not the manga so it's not canon! It's not canon!" is not a reason. When an author makes a public statement about his story, that is canon for that story; they are the authoritative source and have the right to define their fictional universe. If Kubo came up to you and told you to the face that Kenpachi has Shikai, would you still consider it up for debate unless he actually put pen to paper and wrote it in the manga? I think that's a pretty ridiculous definition of "canon".
Unless you have some actual concrete reason for thinking the statements in that databook were not approved by Kubo, disallowing the databook is ridiculous.

Another interesting thought?: Kenpachi describes this as the "true form" (本体) of his Zanpakutou. This is the same word used to describe Old Man Zangetsu etc. What if he's actually fighting with the materialized true form of his Zanpakutou there? (A very unusual materialized form, since it's a sword itself and not a living being... but then, that's Zaraki...) I don't think we'd call that Shikai...

Manga seems to be taking forever to reveal something :smile-big Go go Kenpachi!

[Edit @ TheChosenOne: Mayuri recently smashed his unreleased Zanpakutou in two and said he could repair it as long as he had the hilt. But that could just be Mayuri. XD]

[TheChosenOne]

He said repair, that is different from the zanpak healing itself. We have not seen regular katana heal itself like shikai does. :)

[Neuroff]

^ Either way, assuming and knowing are very different things.

Many assume, for instance, that Aizen is stronger than all of the Espada, by a huge margin. Others believe he's just slightly above Primera: others think he's nothing special, and leans on KS to get by. All of that is theory. But if it's something like, say, Ichigo having Bankai, then no one would question that. It was stated right in the manga.

Had Kubo stated that Zaraki had Shikai in the manga, there wouldn't be 200+ replies in this thread.
If the manga is written for Japan and everyone in Japan knows it's in shikai, I don't see why Kubo would think it's necessary.

[gigantor21]

^ What about the rest of us? If anyone just buys the Viz books, and doesn't go on any forums, they'll never know for sure. Hell, how do we know that EVERYONE in Japan who reads Bleach has the Databook, or at least read it? And why wait until the Databook comes out and put it there? Again, having it in the actual manga would've solved that problem.

[Tsukisama]

Hopefully within the next three chapters, this issue will be cleared up. I'm always surprised whenever I see that this thread is still getting new posts. Both sides have said the same thing over and over, and no one is any closer to having a very sound argument. From what evidence has been shown in the manga, the matter is completely ambiguous. It is something that has not been well explored in the canon. There really is nothing to debate here. The question is "is Zaraki Kenpachi permanently in shikai or not", and the answer is there is not enough information at the present time. This topic really isn't something philosophical that is worthy of lengthy deliberation IMO; it is a fact, one to which the true answer has not been clearly delineated. During this current battle between Kenpachi and Nnoitora, the issue of his sword is bound to come up and we are more than likely to receive an answer to this question. Would it not make more sense just to wait a few more weeks to see what happens, rather than perpetuating a fruitless debate?

[TheChosenOne]

The question is "is Zaraki Kenpachi permanently in shikai or not", and the answer is there is not enough information at the present time.

It depends on what you take as an informative answer, we can just wait for it or we can decide our own answer. :)

[gigantor21]

Tsuki - I fully agree with you. In fact, I wanted to close the thread, but ttx talked me out of it--citing the current match as the main reason. We'll wait and see if Kubo clears things up soon.

[patedecarne]

That's what I talking about: in the next 3, or at last 4 chapters I think the battle will be over, and sure that's a important battle to Kenpachi, sooo, he will uses all of his powers there, I believe that's the most right thing to do, and so if he really has Shikai, now is the moment to discover, but until this moment, let's aprreciate this furious battle without thinking in bankai, shikai, ...kai, etc!! hehe

[KyanWan]

Hrm. Today, while listening to a fine radio program ... on my NOW MISSING (ARRRGH!) MP3 player ...

*cough*

Anyways, I heard a story about a certain really old literary character that we should all be familiar with.

Sherlock Holmes.

Anyways, it goes- he was killed off because the author got sick of writing about him. Well, said author later needed some cash - so guess what? *GASP* Sherlock Holmes faked his own death! ZOMG!

He modified the story later to fit his own needs / ideas.

Don't rely 100% on the information that's out there - stories change, ideas change. Creativity's an unpredictable beast. ^_^

Kubo's the writer. I say, if Zaraki has shikai ( which I'm sure a lot of us are *hoping* he does ) it will be revealed in the manga.

I was thinking a bunch of excuses myself - such as "well, his sword broke - and it still stayed like it is ... so, it's not shikai" - but didn't Ichigo's shikai break - and stay solid?

I read Mayuri's sword is "weird" in sealed state ... um , it's not. He releases it and it turns into that spider-looking baby head with poison spewing out of it. Sealed, it's a regular looking katana.

But still - not conclusive.

Then the whole synchronization thing - you've got to have communication with your sword - well, Zaraki has ZERO. And, well, he does. No connection with his blade whatsoever.

There's another consideration to take into the whole fray - a what if -

Since he has no connection with that old beat up sword ... who says he needs to keep it? Who's not to say he doesn't have a *new* blade that has a connection to him?

But I'm doubting that - just because of his own past ... he knows that his zanpaktou has some pain - it's just like he was ... no name, no connection.

If it is shikai, then he'll say "oo! My secret power - I brought my sword out in the woods and made up with it. We did manly stuff all weekend - hunted, drank, ate meat - and behold!" ( cue that good ol' shiny red & white spinning rising-sun "lights" coming out of featured product you see so often in stereotypical Japanese advertising. )

Horray - no change in the blade and he sux0rs. What a dick.

*yawn*

I guess I'll just wait till the next chapter comes out - after this next dud - to see what's going on with his blade.