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bax
October 26, 2007, 02:58 PM
The 297th chapter is out! Get it HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20479)!!!

Looks like a great chapter! Kenpachi arrived!! Will this mean more SS captains are there too? Or is it just Kenpachi? Ever think what will happened wehn Yachiru and Nell meet? :D

Predict away guys!

--

Heeeyy, chapter is out, go fetch (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20823) it, then return here for brilliant discussions!

lilkwarrior
October 26, 2007, 04:43 PM
Hopefully, Kenpachi is not the only captain here, with a captain going with him we HAVEN'T seen much is along (Retsu Unohana would be PERFECT, she would also could be helpful if Nnoitora escapes/runs off with Orihime) . I don't want to see Byakuya save Rukia again, I rather see her captain of her squad, Ukitake, save her if she's going to be saved; I wouldn't be to uptight if Byakuya saves Rukia again, I would just be annoyed of how predictable it would be.) I finally will see more stronger captains than overrated Hitsugaya fight.

And please don't say the Espada will own the captains.The Espada strength is over preceived by many. Even though Yamamoto is def. the strongest and the first captains to graduate from his school are definitely right behind him, it's likely they can evenly fight with the Espada. Think about it, the only ones that have fought Espada are Ishida, Renji, Rukia, and Hitsugaya (the controversial Luppi) Hitsugaya is the only captain that fought a Espada but out of all the combat oriented Captains; he and Soifon are the weakest. Say all you want, but if Rukia could beat a Espada, and more than half of the captains are significantly stronger than her, including officers like Ikkaku, the Espada can be beaten by Captains. Question is, can they even faze the top 4? (I think Noitora, even though he hasn't released, probably be the last Espada defeated before next arc or early next arc. I also don't think he's a Vastorde, Ulquiorra and above him, I think, are the only ones so far.)

llmcduff
October 26, 2007, 04:58 PM
If Yachiru and Nell meet, they would do a chest bum?

Ichigo
October 26, 2007, 05:38 PM
everyone that is down and almost out will be saved by the SS shinigami!!!

Blite
October 26, 2007, 05:43 PM
WOW what an unexpected turn of events... Can't wait for next weeks chapter.

I'm thinking that there is going to be at least 4 captains(maybe not captains but at least 4 others to help). We've already seen Kenpachi, so for the others I'm going to predict Byakuya, Urahara or Yoruichi, and Hitsugaya. Who knows maybe we will even see some Vizard, but its doubtful.

Caspis Sinclair
October 26, 2007, 05:56 PM
I'm in the same boat as lilkwarrior... I'd really like to see Ukitake come to rescue Rukia. He's already shown that is isn't scared to break the rules when he feels that the right thing has to be done.

As for Sado... maybe Yoroichi, or Urahara?

I'm not sure if any Captains are going to come to Renji and Ishida's aid, though. The third member of Nell's subordinates still hasn't showed up yet...

(crosses fingers)

It probably hasn't been long enough, but it would be awesome if Kenpachi has been training and *finally* came to terms with who he is and what drives him to fight. A lot of people have been waiting for him to learn the name of his Zanpakuto.

big_p
October 26, 2007, 05:58 PM
I doubt it will be anyone from earth, including the vizards. Kenpachi showing up with them just doesnt make sense. I certainly hope that Ukitake is the one to show up at Rukia's place seeing as how he is her captain and she just had that horrible traumatic experience of once again killing Kaien, which he was there for the first time. I want to see Byakuya save Renji and co, and I want Shunsui to help Chad. Unohana would be cool, but i fail to see her having an ability that would do any real damage, im sure she does, i just dont see it. Mayuri would be cool, but weve seen what he can do, i think it would be better with relatively mysterious captains. I know byakuya doesnt fit, i just kind of expect to see him since i believe he was the one that help renji and rukia get there.

FalcoUk
October 26, 2007, 05:58 PM
A quick summary of the last page..
1) Zaraki has his eyepatch on
2) Zaraki has his bells on.
3) His Zanpakutou is freaking SMOOTH! Not jagged/beat up.... xO! (Atleast from what we can tell..)

Thus, I reckon we see a few new moves from the big man himself, I reckon he'll beat Tesla up good, and just as Noitora charges at him after some ranting and cursing Zaraki removes the eye patch/says his shikai release command.

So all in all;
A few pages of ichigo going "WHAT?! KENPACHI!?" while Kenpachi demands Ichigo fights him (XD).
Before Kenpachi gets his groove on and beats the crap into Tesla(coil).
THEN, we have Noitora giving the whole ">=[" act and just as Noitora charges at him Zaraki either removes his eye patch/shikai release (either would be welcome tbh)
And finally, on the last page, we see who/what (you never know xP) is about to save Chad and Rukia.

No more random Szayel pages in the middle of the chapter damnit xD, should do a whole chapter if its gonna go down that route...

lilkwarrior
October 26, 2007, 06:01 PM
Vaizard are the only group I want to see, but it's unlikely they would all of a sudden be in accompany with Soul Society Shinigami; unless Hat-n-clogs persuaded them or "felt" that Ichigo, "one of "them" is in a dire situation, I don't think the Vizard are in Hueco Mundo with Soul Society Shinigami. I can dream though.

FalcoUk
October 26, 2007, 06:10 PM
^I wouldn't like Shinji and co being there seeing as, like you said, SS and VZ in one boat already? Unlikely but.. this is Kubo.

As its been said, Ukitake to save Rukia. Can't really add much to whats been said.
I have to agree with the big_p, Kyōraku to save Chad, seeing as he was the first captain to fight against Chad and he also took a liking to him.
For Ishida/Renji... I'm not sure, I'd like Komamura to get his foot back in the script but he is probably too loyal (couldn't think of a dif word) to go against Genryūsai (unless they were somehow given his permission), despite the fact that Genryūsai knows he will need everyone for the war and so he probably wouldn't punish anyone too badly (we hope)

lilkwarrior
October 26, 2007, 06:16 PM
Speaking of Dreaming, you know what would be a person to rescue Ichigo and company? Isshin, NOW that's someone I hope got a lot to offer--and a lot of questions to answer as well.

^^It's still okay to dream about it, it would be kind of funny if one of the Vizard (ideally Rose) come up with a "loophole" reason like Ishida to help Ichigo and his Shinigami friends.. Knowing Tite Kubo, anything is possible.

FalcoUk
October 26, 2007, 06:24 PM
^Oioi, lets not forget Ryuuken, a tag-team combo that would bring most to their knees >=]
I reckon as we get to the end of the arc, as they all get back down to Karakura town/Urahara's basement Ryuuken and Isshin will be there..
AUw i'm predicting too far ahead ^^;;

Edit; Holy crap its 12:26..*dies*

smlvalentine
October 26, 2007, 06:24 PM
Are we convinced that this is the real Kenpachi and not a hallucination on Ichigo's part?

conn-man
October 26, 2007, 06:25 PM
i see some serious fighting done by kenpachi, maybe byakuya saving rukia but i like the posibility of it being ukitake, and i think chad is gonna be taken by the exquisitas and not saved by anyone. and renji and ishida, thats up in the air for me, cant predict it.

Istaria
October 26, 2007, 06:56 PM
wow, i just hope that they show the other captains in their allmighty glory coz theres NO WAY IN HELL that they'd just send one!!!! is this gonna be the beginning of the winter wars or just a rescue and return mission? either way, i really really hope that we're gonna see some captain/espada clashes OTHER than hitsugaya (is that lil chibi gonna be there? probably, he's everywhere. damned gratuitous use of hitsugaya >.<)

man that was awesome chapter XD

@FalcoUk - i see the kenpachi hair bells >.> but the angle is hard to tell if the zanpakutou is smooth or not ...

AH-San
October 26, 2007, 07:09 PM
so wht will happen is zaraki will show off his shikai
yachiru will meet nell
chad will be taken off to become one of the esparda or maybe saved by yoruachi & soifon
rukia will be saved by Ukitake, ikaku & the other guy with feathers or something
urahara will join the fight with renji & ishda

shibigoku
October 26, 2007, 07:26 PM
Kenpaichi definitely has benkai now. Look at his sword it's all repaired now.

conn-man
October 26, 2007, 07:40 PM
is everyone sure about that? i feel like i cant even see the blade.

lilkwarrior
October 26, 2007, 08:10 PM
Are we convinced that this is the real Kenpachi and not a hallucination on Ichigo's part?

Well, if you think about it, Ichigo's arm is literally broken, and bones being crushed or at least being damaged, I don't think even Hollow Ichigo can ignore those injuries; When Hollow Ichigo fought Byakuya, his bones were being crushed by the unfamiliar Bankai spiritual power, and when Hollow Ichigo took over it stopped not letting it continue to damage his bones, which would eventually allow Ichigo body to give out on him. This time, his bones are literally being broken/damaged (I'm almost certain one of his legs or arm is broken by Telsa, Nnoitora, or both.) If this is Kenpachi inside Ichigo's Mind, then the only way Ichigo could really fight again is while Hollow Ichigo/ Zaraki is talking to him, he's turning to a hollow again. Keep in mind that he IS still in Bankai form, even though he's on the verge of death and Hollow Ichigo DID forewarn that he'll return. With Ichigo being beaten like trash, and it being Hollow Ichigo's "body" also, I think Hollow Ichigo can be ready to set a return, by teaching Ichigo to kick Espada tail.

However, it seems TOO unlikely, I'm sticking it is the real Kenpachi. But I admit, details like Kenpachi's bells are missing, can it mean it's the Kenpachi in Ichigo's mind? Does anyone have a pic of the Knpachi in Ichigo's mind compared to the real Kenpachi? BUT looking at how they set up the chapter for all 5 of Ichigo's group needing help ASAP, There's overwhelming proof that it is the real Kenpachi...

Nizak
October 26, 2007, 08:12 PM
Okay I think the following ill happen:

We'll find out that a group of captains ignore the orders of Yamamoto (Leader Gotei 13), maybe persuaded by Byakuya Kuchiki or Ukitake.
So Kenpachi certainly joins the fight, he loves it, when you say Kenpachi you also say Yachiru (the chibbi-like girl riding on his back). Maybe some officers too, like Ikkaku and Yumichi.

Now we see the following ppl being saved by:
Ichigo => Kenpachi and co

Rukia => Byakuya or ?, but not Ukitake he won't set foot on HM or else full war will break loose, I don't think Aizen will sit around anymore if such a high ranked and powerful captain comes along. Unless he planned it and counter SS while the captains do the
rescue, but that wuld be unlikely.

Chad => Soifon and some of her elite military group taking out the exquisitas, I think Shunsui is too high ranked to leave SS, he might have to leave behind and watch the SS's side of the Iris gate. Though Soifon is military commander, I still place my bet on her.

Renji, Ishida & co => hard call, could be anyone, maybe Hitsaguya... would be fun if it was Korusutchi (cpt 12 of research dpt.), he might tag along to do recon and gather info on HM. If he fights Espada 8, it would be like a nerd fight, analyzing eachother's moves and pulling out the coolest gadget and kill eachother off. But one thing is highly possible, someone of Squad 4 will come along to give first aid.

Okay now back on topic, the next chapter:
-We might see new characters appear saving the ppl mentioned above and won't see any real fighting (like this chapter, felt like a filler with a cliffhanger)
-Or we might see Kenpachi fighting a few rounds pwning Arrancar's asses and then the fight with Noitora commence and end of that chapter.
-If kubo wants to do things fast, which I doubt, we might see Kenpachi kill Tesla in one stroke, see the release of Noitora,(maybe end of chapter)or Kenpachi removes his eye patch and few swings and Shikai.

Anyways Kenpachi will remove eye patch first before going to Shikai(if he learned it).
From what I can tell it's too early to say he has Shikai, the last image isn't so clear, though I see no rugged edges on the sword, we should wait on this one before we can tell for sure.

what happens to Nell? lies low or play dead for a few chapters before resurfacing again...
poor Nell I like you more when you were more...mature lol!

-Nizak

wooticus
October 26, 2007, 08:24 PM
i think it will be byakuya who saves rukia.. look at these pillars aroun her they are reminding me of his bankai just too much..

ChaosCloud
October 26, 2007, 08:48 PM
WAW WAW ZARAKI KENPACHI IS HEREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
so the one rescuing should renji should be byakuya , ukitake rescueing kuchiki rukia and yasutora sado by shunsui kyoraku

And Aizen sousuke might have predicted all this and the espadas number 5 and above are either gillians or adjuchas and aizen could be replacing them with Vasto lordes

omegafrijol
October 26, 2007, 09:13 PM
WAW WAW ZARAKI KENPACHI IS HEREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
so the one rescuing should renji should be byakuya , ukitake rescueing kuchiki rukia and yasutora sado by shunsui kyoraku

And Aizen sousuke might have predicted all this and the espadas number 5 and above are either gillians or adjuchas and aizen could be replacing them with Vasto lordes


the only gillian of the espada was novena espada, and I want Noitora to die in the worst pain full way.

will Nell survive that kick?

Super Angillis
October 26, 2007, 09:40 PM
I predict that Kenpachi will make bacon. If Noi's release is a Snake, then maybe some snakeskin luggage a little later. Of course my dream of Yachiru and Nell meeting seems to be very close to coming true. Perhaps they can join the Kakura superheroes as Kakura White and Black? No clues on what will happen with the others, but I have a theory for Szeal. He needs to be beaten by someone who he has no data on. That way he cannot counter them.

Of course we have to wonder what Kenpachi is doing there. Official rescue squad? maybe. Or it could be the start of the Winter War. SS may be trying to attack before Aizen is ready, it would be a valid stratagey. Or did Kenpachi just get really lost on his way to the captians meeting?

Ziero
October 26, 2007, 10:33 PM
I don't think we will see too much fighting from the SS rescue team. If several captains are indeed in HM, I think we will only see enough to disrupt the espada and grab Ichigo and company and get the hell out of HM. If there aren't several captains in HM we might only see Yachiru, Ikkaku and Yumichika. I think we won't see to much fighting from the rescue team though.

Blite
October 26, 2007, 10:41 PM
Is it just me or isn't Ichigo suppose to be stronger the Kenpachi? I mean especially with him finally getting control of the inner hollow... It would be a little sad to see that Kenpachi passed him up so easily even though Kenpachi is a badass...

shinkita
October 26, 2007, 10:42 PM
Kenpachi already has shikai, but by now I think he will have learnt his zanpaktou's name.. and show off some moves next chapter; but no Bankai.

As for the others; it heavily implies that someone is going for the rescue, I doubt SS would have given them permission so rebels like.. 11th Division (Ikkaku, Yachiru, Yumichika (complete with Bankai =D)), although it would be cool to have Ukitake for Rukia, and Shunsui for Chad.. but 3+ captains? seems too extreme.

haha, it would be cool to have Keigo, Mizuiro and Tatsuki appear with new powers; I can dream. lol

Robotic Red
October 26, 2007, 10:43 PM
A quick summary of the last page..
1) Zaraki has his eyepatch on
2) He doesn't have his hair-bells (w/e) on.
3) His Zanpakutou is freaking SMOOTH! Not jagged/beat up.... xO! (Atleast from what we can tell..)

Thus, I reckon we see a few new moves from the big man himself, I reckon he'll beat Tesla up good, and just as Noitora charges at him after some ranting and cursing Zaraki removes the eye patch/says his shikai release command.


@ #2, he does have his hair bells.

Ziero
October 26, 2007, 10:49 PM
haha, it would be cool to have Keigo, Mizuiro and Tatsuki appear with new powers; I can dream. lol

Lol I agree but when you think about it Ichigo and crew have been in HM a day or so (correct me if you know exactly how long) no way they could even survive against normal hollows in HM atm. But as you said we can dream...

N07
October 26, 2007, 11:04 PM
omg, sweet awesomeness with Kenpachi showing up.
and of course the cut scenes tell us that at least two more ppl are going to show up. Not sure as well if someone will come help out Ishida and Renji. But def time for the Captn to make somethin happn.

Lenzai
October 26, 2007, 11:33 PM
I think there will definitly be one other captain, aside from Kenpachi that will show up next chapter, but only one.

Here's my prediction:

Rukia - Byakuya saveee (predictable, but its a shonen manga =P)
Ichigo - Kenpachi saveee (yes we know already, but I predict Yachiru x Niel sexy dance party, and also instead of kenpachi fighting boar dude, yachiru fights)
Renji & Ishida & Sado - Instead of captains saving their lame asses, I think its going to be Ikkaku and Yumichika. Kenpachi here? those two must not be too far behind.

so...
Renji & Ishida - probably Yumichika with his (reiatsu eating?) sword.
Sado - Ikkaku, because it'll be sickly to see him destroy the espada execution squad.

Feedback please?

notBowen
October 26, 2007, 11:59 PM
I'm going with Kenpachi being a hallucination. A sudden appearance like that just doesn't make sense. Someone would have sensed him, they're not exactly at the Outskirts of Hueco Mundo. There's also the fact that Kenpachi isn't shown say knocking an attack away or interacting with anyone other than words to Ichigo, and the fact that when these rescues happen, they show glimpses of everyone involved in the rescue and then the chapter ends, typically. I doubt that Kenpachi would be the only one coming to the rescue. The only thing I see pointing towards a literal SS rescue party is the current situation of Rukia and Chad.

black_burn
October 27, 2007, 12:10 AM
actually Zaraki is stopping Telsa's fist.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 12:12 AM
I'm going with Kenpachi being a hallucination. A sudden appearance like that just doesn't make sense. Someone would have sensed him, they're not exactly at the Outskirts of Hueco Mundo. There's also the fact that Kenpachi isn't shown say knocking an attack away or interacting with anyone other than words to Ichigo, and the fact that when these rescues happen, they show glimpses of everyone involved in the rescue and then the chapter ends, typically. I doubt that Kenpachi would be the only one coming to the rescue. The only thing I see pointing towards a literal SS rescue party is the current situation of Rukia and Chad.

Well did Ichigo hallucinate about stopping the attack to. Kenpachi has to be real, it would not make sense to be a Hallucination.

I don't think Kenpachi is going to be the only one. Byakuya has to come and save rukia (That obvious, and also the captain is responsible for Renji)
I dunno about Chad it could be anyone (There isn't a captain that had some kind of connection to him)
Ishida (probably Mayuri since the already fought and Syazel is a scientist)

notBowen
October 27, 2007, 12:14 AM
I don't see that the punch was really stopped, could merely be time stopping ala his fight with Kenpachi.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 12:17 AM
I don't see that the punch was really stopped, could merely be time stopping ala his fight with Kenpachi.

Well that was because he achieved materialization. Kenpachi being there does make sense maybe SS found out something that made them make a move early. If it is then worst bleach chapter ever.

AngryChubbs
October 27, 2007, 12:39 AM
y is everyone saying kenpachi has shikai? was this stated in the manga? dont you have to know your swords name in order to go shikai? could be wrong, so please help me out

Skywolf666
October 27, 2007, 01:23 AM
I think that the people rescuing Ichigo's friends will have some type of special connection not just random people.

Rukia - Byakuya
Ishida & Renji - Mayuri
Chad - Shunsui Kyoraku

Byakuya because of the fact that he swore his dying wife that he'd protect Rukia.

Mayuri not because there is a connection with Ishida or Renji, but for Szayel. They are both analytical and also quite sadistic (Szayel's voodoo dolls & Mayuri's torturing). It's obvious that nobody of standard intelligence can fight against him, yeah Ishida's really smart but that's just schoolwork, not analyzing abilities.

Shunsui because of the fight that he had with Chad, he respect's Chad because he put his life on the line for saving Rukia for Ichigo, even though he did not wish to fight. If he didn't respect Chad, he would have killed him in Soul Society. Plus Yamamoto said that he is one of the 3 strongest captains (the other 2 being himself and Jushirou), and there is 13 people about to take care of Chad.

It's obvious Soul Society's captains helped them, due to them having bad relationships with Urahara & the Vaizards, it's likely that they are not with them, of course I could be wrong about that statement cause Urahara said he had some things to do. And not many people in SS would know how to get into Hueco Mundo. I guess we'll find out.

ALSO!

For those doubting it's Kenpachi, look closely at the last frame, you'll see a giant fist being blocked by Kenpachi's sword. And the frame before ichigo said "...what the hell?" it's obvious there was a connection, that's the standard clashing noise in a manga, at least Bleach.

I was looking at the other posts and it said the bells were missing.....no they're not, once again, take a closer look.

(Off topic note - is anyone else disturbed that Nnoitra has 2 fingers in Inoue's mouth?)

KingPopo
October 27, 2007, 02:23 AM
I Doubt that Mayuri will come to protect Ishida , they're not exactly on good terms....
i believe that the Rescuers would be members of the gotei 13 who are rebellious such as Kenpachi so..... i think
Ishida & Renji Saved by ikkaku and Yumichikwa , as from what i remember Renjis friends with Ikkaku
Ichigo will be saved by Kenpachi and Yachiru (duh?)
Rukia will be saved by Byakuya ( ")
Chad will either be saved by Shunsui or be left behind T.T where his hollow powers will gradually develop.
Kenpachi , Byakuya and Ken's division will save the rescuers , but will leave Orihime behind where she and chad will develop their powers , which have been hinted to be hollow powers.
I also believe Ssayel will NOT die , and neither will Noitora.
Winter war
Ssayel vs Mayuri
Noitora vs Soifon / Yoruichi / Unohana / Yachiru ( Anyone Female)
Ulquirra vs byakuya

m0ji
October 27, 2007, 02:24 AM
Kenpachi LEARNED his Bankai finally! now he ll get Ichigo and some others must have arrived too and will save the others!For now we ll only see Kenpachi!!!

Zeus-Tails
October 27, 2007, 03:36 AM
Well, I assume that everyone is preparing for Winter War and the only way you could progress Kenpachi further in strength is to give him shikai and bankai. Anyway I'm pretty sure there was foreshadowing in the SS arc about Kenpachi achieving shikai (not so sure about bankai). I want him to have shikai now and save his bankai for the Winter War.

Even Kenpachi knowing Shikai makes him very powerful. I mean when fighting against Ichigo in SS, it was said that since Kenpachi didn't know his sword's name, his power was slowly being decreased by his sword, so he wasn't at his true max. Now, if he has shikai, he can be at his true max PLUS the power-up that his shikai attack gives him (He was in released state all the time before, but without the sword's name he couldn't use his shikai attack).

I think it would make more sense that this is a real Kenpachi because it suggest the others will be saved by SS people too. I mean, if it's a hallucination, then who's going to save Rukia and the others? Ichigo doesn't even know where they are.

P.S. - OMG I hope Yumichika reached bankai. His shikai's energy-draining is pretty good and it will be OMG in bankai.

P.S.S. - Hitsugaya had difficulties with Yammi, I doubt he can hope to defeat Szayel.

dreamzsai
October 27, 2007, 04:19 AM
Though i would love to see Kenpachi release(Shikai or Bankai, doesnt matter) but i believe he will be able to kick Noitora's a$% without even releasing!

With Yachiru always sticking around to Kenpachi, we might see Yachiru vs Tesla and Kenpachi vs Noitora.
And with that we would probably see Yachiru's Shikai and Noitora's Release!

Byakuya will probably come save Rukia, keeping his promise to his wife to protect Rukia.

I dont think we'll see much actions from those rather "inactive" characters, so i guess Hitsuguya and Matsumoto will be there to help Renji/Ishida, and Youruichi helping out Chad.


Noitora vs Soifon / Yoruichi / Unohana / Yachiru ( Anyone Female)
Being Sexist and all, Noitora really needs to get beaten badly by a lady! Or he could just get killed by someone who proves that he's the strongest by placing himself in handicaps, and that is Kenpachi!

FalcoUk
October 27, 2007, 05:13 AM
@FalcoUk - i see the kenpachi hair bells >.> but the angle is hard to tell if the zanpakutou is smooth or not ...

I'm blind xD. Damn can't believe I didn't see them..
The angle is annoying (also the fact its right next to his hair)... but it does look smooth to me.

yowatsgood
October 27, 2007, 05:17 AM
if kenpachi is not a hallucination, then i predict that other captains have come with him. the thing is, i think that either they're stronger captains, or they're just grabbing ichigo and his friends to leave. regardless of how they may have gotten stronger, most of the captains can't keep up with vaizard ichigo. that means that for those captains to defeat an espada, it would have to be an espada ranked around 7 and under. Grimmjow would destroy a lot of them. if Ukitake or Shunsui show up, then we don't know what to expect. Byakuya could not contend with vaizard ichigo b4, and he shouldn't be too much different now. he IS a shinigami, which means that he'll have a limit. kenpachi is hard to say. he leaks power, so if he learns his zanpakatou's name and achieves shikai and bankai, then we don't know how far ahead he'll be against byakuya in power. if he already has some of these, then maybe he can deal with Nnoitra. MAYBE.....for all we know, he may murder Nnoitra, but i don't see how kenpachi would achieve so much right away. he is not ichigo, so for him to achieve bankai means that he has to get his zanpakatou to materialize, and it would take him 10 years to achieve it.

Monkeyshank
October 27, 2007, 05:30 AM
Has anyone thought that the top espada maybe the old man and the old man is actually chad grandfather and through his connection with his hollw of a grandfather he has achieved his power(yes I know his power is related to ichigo too), soo maybe chads savior will com from within HM

sythwon
October 27, 2007, 05:55 AM
zaraki kenpachi -- yessirrr!! ^^ about time, too

that's zaraki alright, not a hallucination or another mind-bout by ichigo. and it's highly unlikely that he's got bankai as well. too soon. shikai, probably. then again, probably not. does it matter? slightly, i guess. it's the same outcome anyways > pwnage! noitora's gonna get some... yeah! tesla's more like the appetizer and noitora's the main course. lol

it should be pretty safe to assume too that the cavalry's come to save the day. now, as for who are present from SS..... rukia's wasted so byakuya's the obvious one to rescue her. i agree seeing ukitake do something would be better, since we haven't seen much of him in action. chad... somebody mentioned soifon and shunsui. i'm going with ikkaku with yumichika tagging along. for ishida and renji... my guess is matsumoto and hitsugaya. SS's got their hands full on the preparations for the winter war so let's not drool over seeing everyone's shikai/bankai release, techniques, vizard forms, hollow release, etc.. that'll be for another time and day.

for 298, some zaraki pwnage. guaranteed

Aegiskiller
October 27, 2007, 06:51 AM
Kenpachi arrived out of nowhere, and I would like an explenation as to how he was able to do that without anybody detecting him. On the other hand now that Kenpachi is there I think we will get to see him fight the espada's a little bit then Tousen might come and stop him.

I seriously have a feeling for a Kenpachi Tousen rematch.

rockleedrift
October 27, 2007, 07:54 AM
YES! Kenpachi is BACK! ^^ *tears of joy*

yep his bells are on, but i can see what FalcoUk means with the sword. Even if you can't see whether its smooth or not, why is it black? or a part of it black? Normal zanpakto's are usually black with a white edge. Like Kenpachi's is now. Before it was all white and jaggered. So yeah, he's defintily acheived shikai. Not bankai though, that would be too much.

but get this... isn't it a pretty long time since we last saw Yachiru? I reckon we might see an older version of her!

That would be cool (though I sure 90% of people out there thinks shes cute and all that and would like her to stay a child).

smlvalentine
October 27, 2007, 08:49 AM
Well, if you think about it, Ichigo's arm is literally broken, and bones being crushed or at least being damaged, I don't think even Hollow Ichigo can ignore those injuries; When Hollow Ichigo fought Byakuya, his bones were being crushed by the unfamiliar Bankai spiritual power, and when Hollow Ichigo took over it stopped not letting it continue to damage his bones, which would eventually allow Ichigo body to give out on him. This time, his bones are literally being broken/damaged (I'm almost certain one of his legs or arm is broken by Telsa, Nnoitora, or both.) If this is Kenpachi inside Ichigo's Mind, then the only way Ichigo could really fight again is while Hollow Ichigo/ Zaraki is talking to him, he's turning to a hollow again. Keep in mind that he IS still in Bankai form, even though he's on the verge of death and Hollow Ichigo DID forewarn that he'll return. With Ichigo being beaten like trash, and it being Hollow Ichigo's "body" also, I think Hollow Ichigo can be ready to set a return, by teaching Ichigo to kick Espada tail.

However, it seems TOO unlikely, I'm sticking it is the real Kenpachi. But I admit, details like Kenpachi's bells are missing, can it mean it's the Kenpachi in Ichigo's mind? Does anyone have a pic of the Knpachi in Ichigo's mind compared to the real Kenpachi? BUT looking at how they set up the chapter for all 5 of Ichigo's group needing help ASAP, There's overwhelming proof that it is the real Kenpachi...

I'm not sure why people keep noting the bells as it seems they're still there, just very small. As may have already been noted, there are two possibilities. I'll grant that the rescue is likely. Everyone's on the ropes right now or worse. This is like the orgy of evidence that Episode One gave us where all the protagonists were in the worst way and then the deus ex machina made everything work out. So a captain for every victim - right on.

Here's the flipside though: who reacted to Kenpachi in the manga? That's a pretty blatant artistic trick, to reveal a character but only through one character's perception (Ichigo's.) I mean, assuming the Espada were as talented sensing spirit pressure as any Captain, then the real Kenpachi would have set off some terrified alarms. You also note that Ichigo's broken in half right now. I agree, but does that matter? Of course Hollow Ichigo can ignore those injuries; even better, he can heal them with instantaneous regeneration.

Like I said, I'll grant that it's likely the real Kenpachi but that means one of two things: there's a tremendous plot hole around why Aizen has not responded to the appearance of the Captains (as he has a damn good security network; nothing happens in Hueco Mundo without his knowledge) or this is an aspect of Aizen's plan.

Seta Soujirou
October 27, 2007, 10:07 AM
zaraki is here...there are probably other shinigami as well...most likely hitsugaya, byakuya and kyouraku...

byakuya to save rukia
hitsugaya to save renji and ishida
kyouraku to save chad

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 10:21 AM
I see some posts saying that Kenpachi achieved Shikai or will release Shikai. Kenpachi has already achieved shikai. Remember Yoruchi said that his and Ichigo swords are full time released shikai.

Well Kenpachi could have learned the name of his sword but that does not necessarily mean that he achieved bankai. But he could be stronger, I think Zangetsu said that if you are one with the sword you become much more powerful (ie. Knowing the name of the sword). I don't think (don't want to) Kishi would give Kenpachi Bankai now, unless SS is already making it's move, and not waiting till winter for their big fight.

hollowdemon
October 27, 2007, 10:32 AM
Has anyone thought that the top espada maybe the old man and the old man is actually chad grandfather and through his connection with his hollw of a grandfather he has achieved his power(yes I know his power is related to ichigo too), soo maybe chads savior will com from within HM


i dont think that'll be possible....when aizen alerted the espadas about an intruder infiltrating the area the first person to speak was the old man saying "what? we were alerted of intruders to be these kids?" or something similarly close to that.
then again his power is "el diablo"


well to tell u the truth we cant really see the zanpaktou that kenpachi has because
1) we only see the handle part of the zanpaktou
2) the sword part is actually blocked by his hair
so im not quite sold on it yet but hoping that its true that he achieved new power or maybe even kept it hidden since he doesnt want anyone to know.
After all mostly the 11th squad members have a the most secret out of all like both ikkaku and ayasegawa has secrets about their abilities also with madarame only showing his bankai once fighting that arrancar and one time when ayasegawa was fighting shuuhei in soul society he released something only shuuhei knows since he got owned.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 10:38 AM
Has anyone thought that the top espada maybe the old man and the old man is actually chad grandfather and through his connection with his hollw of a grandfather he has achieved his power(yes I know his power is related to ichigo too), soo maybe chads savior will com from within HM

Well since most or some of the espada has similarities with SS captains. Old man being number one is very much possible. Since Yamma is the strongest and oldest and also the most wisest, I would not count out the Old man being number one

I actually want Stark to be number one.

hollowdemon
October 27, 2007, 10:42 AM
yeah thats true also..

which ones stark ?

edit: sry this is random but its so weird seeing kaien and ichigo having so much resemblance...
feels like jst the different color of their hair that makes them different

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 11:00 AM
yeah thats true also..

which ones stark ?

edit: sry this is random but its so weird seeing kaien and ichigo having so much resemblance...
feels like jst the different color of their hair that makes them different

He is the one that was lazy in the espada meeting. He said that he was sleepy

hollowdemon
October 27, 2007, 11:21 AM
its so odd and such a coincidence that the espadas have a lot of similarity traits with the SS captains or vice-captains.
syezl-mayuri
stark-shunsui
grimmjow-renji (cuz theyre both jst temperemental)
that old espada-yamamoto
halibel (is that her name?)-soifon
black espada-komamura
noitora-gin (but opposite attitudes while noitora is obnoxious sneaky gin is silent sneaky)
tesla-shuuhei

thats jst out of my own thought that i see somewhat similarities of them...

and the whole thought of it being hollow ichigo scene again isnt possible since when the boar threw the punch in the chapter was shown a sound effect of something blocking it.
and rangiku could also be involved since shes still somewhat tied to gin from the past
what a crazyyy thought lol

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 11:31 AM
its so odd and such a coincidence that the espadas have a lot of similarity traits with the SS captains or vice-captains.
syezl-mayuri
stark-shunsui
grimmjow-renji (cuz theyre both jst temperemental)
that old espada-yamamoto
halibel (is that her name?)-soifon
black espada-komamura
noitora-gin (but opposite attitudes while noitora is obnoxious sneaky gin is silent sneaky)
tesla-shuuhei

thats jst out of my own thought that i see somewhat similarities of them...

and the whole thought of it being hollow ichigo scene again isnt possible since when the boar threw the punch in the chapter was shown a sound effect of something blocking it.
and rangiku could also be involved since shes still somewhat tied to gin from the past
what a crazyyy thought lol

There is a thread that you can discuss your thought about the similarities
http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8761

I think Nnoi would most likely be similar to Kenpachi

Osiris
October 27, 2007, 11:35 AM
I don't think there may not be a rematch of Kenpachi vs Tousen if only because it seems a major Tousen fight should be with Komamura

also I think if Ukitake rescues Rukia , Katen should rescue Chad

and I do hope we get to see Yachiru wreak some havoc in there as well

erik-the-red
October 27, 2007, 11:36 AM
Maybe Kenpachi learned how to hide his reiatsu. According to Kurosaki Isshin, controlling one's reiatsu is a fundamental technique that all captain-class shinigami possess.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 11:37 AM
I don't think there may not be a rematch of Kenpachi vs Tousen if only because it seems a major Tousen fight should be with Komamura

also I think if Ukitake rescues Rukia , Katen should rescue Chad

and I do hope we get to see Yachiru wreak some havoc in there as well

Who is Katen (Do you mean Shunshi)

Toname vs Komamura is prolly the best match up for Tosen instead of Kenpachi. Nothing tosen does can defest Kenpachi.

hollowdemon
October 27, 2007, 11:47 AM
oh oooops...my bad yo lol =P

Ripht
October 27, 2007, 11:48 AM
If you look at zaraki's sword in the last chapter on pages 18-19 it looks like this zanpakuto might have changed a bit, the edge looks smooth instead of jagged but it is mostly hidden by his body and hair (maybe they did that on purpose so you couldn't see it) but i think that zaraki will kill tesla and then tell ichigo to get the hell up and fight him. and then the 5th espada will run at zaraki, zaraki being all leet will swing is sword round so that the point is right in the 5th's face and then 5th will say something like "you expect to be able to beat me with your sword, i know all about you zaraki (would guess aizen has told him about the captains) and zaraki will say "your right i can't beat you with this sword" then he says his release and all you see is a huge flash and then the chapter ends.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 11:58 AM
If you look at zaraki's sword in the last chapter on pages 18-19 it looks like this zanpakuto might have changed a bit, the edge looks smooth instead of jagged but it is mostly hidden by his body and hair (maybe they did that on purpose so you couldn't see it) but i think that zaraki will kill tesla and then tell ichigo to get the hell up and fight him. and then the 5th espada will run at zaraki, zaraki being all leet will swing is sword round so that the point is right in the 5th's face and then 5th will say something like "you expect to be able to beat me with your sword, i know all about you zaraki (would guess aizen has told him about the captains) and zaraki will say "your right i can't beat you with this sword" then he says his release and all you see is a huge flash and then the chapter ends.

I also thought that he might have finally learned the sword name and stopped damaging their power. Tesla is as good as dead.

The ending you describes is just damn good. I hope that is how it ends next chapter.

FalcoUk
October 27, 2007, 12:47 PM
I see some posts saying that Kenpachi achieved Shikai or will release Shikai. Kenpachi has already achieved shikai. Remember Yoruchi said that his and Ichigo swords are full time released shikai.

It would be my bad, I had forgotten that, and seeing as my post is one of the first going "ZOMGS HE HAS SHIKAI!!!"... Sorry ^^;;
But yeah, we could call it a proper shikai now though, as we presume he knows its name - Therefore its stopped "eroding" its own power and he would have a few new sword moves (Seeing as almost all of his old moves were just releasing reiatsu from his body rather than through his sword in an attack - or were they >.> my memory sucks)...
Basically, the next chapter will pwn.

Zeus-Tails
October 27, 2007, 01:43 PM
Shikai is indeed doing the first release of the sword, assuming your sword is sealed on a normal basis. A part of Shikai is knowing your sword's name and being able to use your sword's Shikai attack.

Like Ichigo's Shikai attack is normal Getsuga Tensho (used on Urahara)
Byakuya's Shikai attack (used by saying "Scatter") splits into small blade pieces and stabs you.
Renji's Shikai attack allows his sword to extend into directions he controls (similar to Ikkaku)

Since Kenpachi doesn't know the sword's name, he cannot use his sword's Shikai attack. What people on this thread mean by "achieving shikai" is knowing his sword's name and using it's shikai attack.

And for those of you who keep saying it will take Kenpachi 10 years to learn bankai -

For the last time, Urahara's method makes you learn bankai in 3 days, so that whole 10 year thing is like irrelevant now.

Travis
October 27, 2007, 02:27 PM
Its hard to tell what Kenpachi's sword looks like. You can only really see the back end of the blade (opposite of the sharp edge) and the part that is all black on zanpaktous.

It would be interesting to see his zanpaktou look normal, hinting he already knows his shikai and we will get to see it during this fight.

My prediction is Byakuya will show up to rescue Rukia. I think since SS is showing up that the Vaizards and Ichigo and Ishida's dad will lay low and not help.

Urahara and Yoruichi could show up to rescue Renji and Chad. I just think we'll see the most popular characters rescue them. If Urahara and Yoruichi don't show up. I think we'll see maybe Shunsui and Hitsugaya.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 02:28 PM
Shikai is indeed doing the first release of the sword, assuming your sword is sealed on a normal basis. A part of Shikai is knowing your sword's name and being able to use your sword's Shikai attack.

Like Ichigo's Shikai attack is normal Getsuga Tensho (used on Urahara)
Byakuya's Shikai attack (used by saying "Scatter") splits into small blade pieces and stabs you.
Renji's Shikai attack allows his sword to extend into directions he controls (similar to Ikkaku)

Since Kenpachi doesn't know the sword's name, he cannot use his sword's Shikai attack. What people on this thread mean by "achieving shikai" is knowing his sword's name and using it's shikai attack.

And for those of you who keep saying it will take Kenpachi 10 years to learn bankai -

For the last time, Urahara's method makes you learn bankai in 3 days, so that whole 10 year thing is like irrelevant now.

Yourichi said that Ichigo has achieved shikai, when she first explained to Ichigo that the zanpak has two stages of power. Ichigo did not know Getsuga Tensho until his bankai training, so does that mean that he only achieved shikai after he learned how to fire the GT. He only learned the name of the attack during the training, he already released the attack with renji and urahara. :D

Now some can say that you have to master it to fully be able to say achieved. Then that would make other things irrelevant. Like Ichigo with Hollow Mask, Ichigo's bankai when fighting Byakuya (Now i guess he has mastered his bankai) etc.;)

Kenpachi's Bankai - well yourichi and Urahara are the only one to able to use the doll type thing. Unless Yourichi helped Kenpachi unlock his bankai, then Kenpachi has to learn it the long way.:tem

Please do not shut off people opinions. This is a forum to share ideas and love for manga:D

Travis
October 27, 2007, 02:31 PM
Getsuga Tensho isn't the name of his zanpaktou. Zangetsu is. According to the story so far, you have to know the name of your zanpaktou and announce it to use your shikai, I would think, atleast once.

Zangetsu said that the difference between him using that Getsuga Tenshou attack without knowing the name was how powerful the attack was. Meaning the attack would be much stronger since he knew the name of it now. Getsuga Tenshou isn't his ability to do shikai. Its just his zanpaktou's attack ability. It may be an ability he could do because he attained shikai, but that's it. And he performed it twice after learning Zangetsu's name.

I don't think everyone thinks shikai is mastering your zanpaktou's abilities.
Its simply knowing the name of your zanpaktou's name. Some zanpaktou's transform, others just fire some kind of blast out of them. Some transform and have abilities.

Rukia has a shikai, a zanpaktou that transformed and had abilities. She only knew 2 dances but she still hadn't learned the 3rd one, so can you really say she didn't have a shikai before the 3rd dance because she may not have mastered her zanpaktou. I would think not.

I also think Tousen had 2 abilities on his shikai. I don't remember if he used 2 different abilities on Kenpachi or not, but I think he announced using his second shikai ability once.

Ripht
October 27, 2007, 02:46 PM
I also thought that he might have finally learned the sword name and stopped damaging their power. Tesla is as good as dead.

The ending you describes is just damn good. I hope that is how it ends next chapter.

Thanks =P i hope he releases his sword and leaves a huge crater

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 03:00 PM
If he releases his sword he automatically becomes the 5 strongest captain. Yamm, Shun, Uki and Unohana are before him. (Speculation)

yowatsgood
October 27, 2007, 03:02 PM
Urahara had a bankai training method that would help you achieve it in 3 days, but Kenpachi is sided with Soul Society, so he wouldn't have anything to do with him. aside from that, ichigo condensed his bankai into his small form to make him faster, so we haven't even seen it's pure form yet. he has a lot to work on still.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 03:04 PM
Urahara had that method of 3 days, but Kenpachi is sided with Soul Society. aside from that, ichigo condensed his bankai into his small form to make him faster, so we haven't even seen it's pure form yet. he has a lot to work on still.

I thought that is his bankai form, So does that mean his true bankai form has not been released?

yowatsgood
October 27, 2007, 03:19 PM
I thought that is his bankai form, So does that mean his true bankai form has not been released?

i would think so because the anime was saying that, but we don't know if ichigo will stay like that forever. byakuya figured it out. he noticed ichigo's super speed, so he pointed out to ichigo that he recognized that that's what ichigo did (since his bankai was supposedly going to be larger). then they continued fighting after he figured it out. if all of this information is accurate, then i would say that we haven't seen his true bankai yet. correct me if i'm wrong though because, that's just what i know from reading and watching it.

ch. 163 and episode 58

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 03:20 PM
No ichigo's in bankai he's reached the bankai that's all a SHINIGAMI full power but not A VIZARDS true power

ANYWAY
People we got to take many things into account about these latest chapters so we can predict the next chapters
1.Grimmjow was still weak from fighting ichigo so he hell got owned
2.Ichigo was still weak not only from fighting Grimmjow but then fighting the 5th out chance to recover
3.Tesla's overkilling for no reason ichigo's pretty much dead without him transforming
4.the 5th espada just got his ass whooped by nel the Ex-3rd
5.Kenpachi's there meaning other captains or vice captains maybe even Sanji and the 9th vice captain(who might have been promoted to full captain) there to talk to tousen

So if Kenpachi owns Tesla no big deal because of reason 2 and 3.
If Kenpachi owns the 5th while not getting wounded to the point he has to pull out his shikai during the fight against TESLA I would call that an unfair match because reason four.
And reason 1 is the only reason Grimmjow got P'zowned so hard by the 5th
Anyway the 4th Espada is still due back any minute now
and because of reason five I'm suspecting that the 12th captain might be there and face off against the 8th espada because that would be awesome fight and an interesting match research vs. research

Travis
October 27, 2007, 03:51 PM
i would think so because the anime was saying that, but we don't know if ichigo will stay like that forever. byakuya figured it out. he noticed ichigo's super speed, so he pointed out to ichigo that he recognized that that's what ichigo did (since his bankai was supposedly going to be larger). then they continued fighting after he figured it out. if all of this information is accurate, then i would say that we haven't seen his true bankai yet. correct me if i'm wrong though because, that's just what i know from reading and watching it.

ch. 163 and episode 58

I don't think so. Byakuya just says there is no undersized ban kai which just reflects his ignorance of bankai. He also is kind of in denial about Ichigo achieving bankai and takes the fight lightly at first. After getting cut he relises its an actual bankai just with unusual abilities. Byakuya also did something similar at the end of their fight by condensing the tiny blades of his bankai into a zanpaktou to crush Ichigo's bankai. I don't think we will see a transformation of Ichigo's zanpaktou unless there is another level beyond bankai. Maybe something a vaizard can achieve.


Kenpachi should easily own Telsa. Telsa is a fraccion not an espada. I think Noitora will jump when he here's Kenpachi's name though. It means something like strongest of all or something right? I doubt Kenpachi would even get injured from Telsa.

Although I hope he takes off his patch before the fight with Noitora and we see his release.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 03:55 PM
No ichigo's in bankai he's reached the bankai that's all a SHINIGAMI full power but not A VIZARDS true power

ANYWAY
People we got to take many things into account about these latest chapters so we can predict the next chapters
1.Grimmjow was still weak from fighting ichigo so he hell got owned
2.Ichigo was still weak not only from fighting Grimmjow but then fighting the 5th out chance to recover
3.Tesla's overkilling for no reason ichigo's pretty much dead without him transforming
4.the 5th espada just got his ass whooped by nel the Ex-3rd
5.Kenpachi's there meaning other captains or vice captains maybe even Sanji and the 9th vice captain(who might have been promoted to full captain) there to talk to tousen

So if Kenpachi owns Tesla no big deal because of reason 2 and 3.
If Kenpachi owns the 5th while not getting wounded to the point he has to pull out his shikai during the fight against TESLA I would call that an unfair match because reason four.
And reason 1 is the only reason Grimmjow got P'zowned so hard by the 5th
Anyway the 4th Espada is still due back any minute now
and because of reason five I'm suspecting that the 12th captain might be there and face off against the 8th espada because that would be awesome fight and an interesting match research vs. research

Ichigo could have more stages of his bankai, like Byakuya. That are very good theories to reach a conclusion about the fight with Kenpachi. Good Job:)

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 03:59 PM
Byakuya needed more stages to his bankai because unlike most it lacked actual better power because remember his original bankai was only more Cherry blossoms while ichigo's went from a hiltless sword to a long sword that has a Majin hilt and a jacket and it increases his natural speed to even fast then byakuya's bankai

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 04:05 PM
Byakuya needed more stages to his bankai because unlike most it lacked actual better power because remember his original bankai was only more Cherry blossoms while ichigo's went from a hiltless sword to a long sword that has a Majin hilt and a jacket and it increases his natural speed to even fast then byakuya's bankai

Agreed. But you don't know maybe Ichigo can't always rely on the power of his hollow. So that might be where his bankai comes in.

Travis
October 27, 2007, 04:06 PM
Something funny about the scientist fight. Between 8th Captain and 8th espada. If 8th Captain wins, what's to prevent him from grabbing Ishida in his weakened state and experimenting on him? :P

I think I'd like to see the original scientist (Urahara) fight Sayzel. I mean how many different techniques must Urahara know? He watches one once or twice and can immediately copy it or increase its power using his to trumph the opponents attacks. I'm sure he could use something that would kill Sayzel.

Ichigo could learn a different stage to his bankai, but its not like his current bankai is in its true form. Also it doesn't mean his bankai is going to get really large because he learns a new stage of it. I mean Byakuya's new stage was just a condensation of the millions of blades into maybe a few hundred swords. Or did he say that there were a thousand blades when he did senkei. Can't remember exactly.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 04:16 PM
Something funny about the scientist fight. Between 8th Captain and 8th espada. If 8th Captain wins, what's to prevent him from grabbing Ishida in his weakened state and experimenting on him? :P

I think I'd like to see the original scientist (Urahara) fight Sayzel. I mean how many different techniques must Urahara know? He watches one once or twice and can immediately copy it or increase its power using his to trumph the opponents attacks.

Ichigo could learn a different stage to his bankai, but its not like his current bankai is in its true form. Also it doesn't mean his bankai is going to get really large because he learns a new stage of it. I mean Byakuya's new stage was just a condensation of the millions of blades into maybe a few hundred swords. Or did he say that there were a thousand blades when he did senkei. Can't remember exactly.

Mayuri is the 12th captain. Was that a typo,

Urahara is way too powerful for a fight with Syazel.

I think former captains and powerful people likeUrahara, Isshin and Ryuuken will probably comes in and fight the top 3 espada.

Well it does not state out that Ichigo's bankai is not in it's true form. We can speculate that there could be a new level of power.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 04:21 PM
1000 and nothing but maybe the 1st captain popping up is stopping the 12th....and Vizard still have power we have no idea how far it could go especially with some one so strange as ichigo anyway how is that going to work is his jacket going...to.....OMFG I got it both his bankai and Hollow side grow with his Hollow become Vastlord level and Zengetsu just evolving into the board claymore type katana it's meant to be to create that mask we've seen with the horn and Zengetsu old man and the hollow ichigo becoming one being that has the power of the hollow and young appearance of the hollow but personally and wisdom of Old man Zengetsu and a sick new outfit

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 04:34 PM
1000 and nothing but maybe the 1st captain popping up is stopping the 12th....and Vizard still have power we have no idea how far it could go especially with some one so strange as ichigo anyway how is that going to work is his jacket going...to.....OMFG I got it both his bankai and Hollow side grow with his Hollow become Vastlord level and Zengetsu just evolving into the board claymore type katana it's meant to be to create that mask we've seen with the horn and Zengetsu old man and the hollow ichigo becoming one being that has the power of the hollow and young appearance of the hollow but personally and wisdom of Old man Zengetsu and a sick new outfit

Damn I did not realize that, That would we crazy awesome. Both sources of Ichigo power goin max, damn. DAMN, DAMN.

_ATMA
October 27, 2007, 04:44 PM
everyone keeps sayings "zaraki's shikai shikai shikai" has everyone forgot what yorichi told ichigo before his bankai training that he and zaraki's zanpaktu are similar as they are both permanent shikai releases because of their massive reitsu

also i have a feeling that what ichigo is seeing is really just a hallucination and his hallow is about to come out and go nuts remember he said that he WILL buck ichigo off him if he was given the chance to and he tends to come out when ichigo is about to get his ass handed to him and has the want and drive to continue on and fight

but if u notice on page 17 in the 3rd frame and the rest of the frames from there on for the rest of that page seems to show that "feeling" of a massive amount of spirit preasure coming down though i could just be reading far into this


Byakuya needed more stages to his bankai because unlike most it lacked actual better power because remember his original bankai was only more Cherry blossoms while ichigo's went from a hiltless sword to a long sword that has a Majin hilt and a jacket and it increases his natural speed to even fast then byakuya's bankai

ichigo's bankai is a compressed form of all his abilities down into a tiny space its like taking a room full of gas and compressing it down to the area of something like a small glass and exploding it, its essentially doing that, ichigo already excelling at shunpo and is highly skilled in martial arts

Travis
October 27, 2007, 05:16 PM
Urahara is probably too powerful, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't see him beat the crap out of 8 and stuff. Not sure if 8 will live or not. He could retreat again. But we've seen Urahara have a run in with Yami twice now who he was beating on without going bankai.

And that was a major typo. I forgot what number Mayuri was. Thinking he was 8 when he's really 12.

Someone point me to the manga chapter where Yoruichi says that Kenpachi has a permanent shikai and talks to Ichigo about there being 2 levels of shikai, because I can't remember it. And I went through a few chapters looking for it and couldn't find it.
Although in the manga the bankai training is sprinkled throughout quite a few chapters.

Zeus-Tails
October 27, 2007, 05:18 PM
The point people make is Kenpachi not being able to use his shikai attack and take advantage of his shikai. By not knowing it's name, his shikai was weakening him. People are excited because Kenpachi might of learned it's name.

Also, I think the one to kill Tesla will be Ikkaku (I hope, I hope!). Ikkaku kicked the ass of one of Grimmjow's fraccion and I think one of Noitora's fraccion will be next ^^

I don't think Tesla can handle Ikkaku's full-powered bankai.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 05:25 PM
everyone keeps sayings "zaraki's shikai shikai shikai" has everyone forgot what yorichi told ichigo before his bankai training that he and zaraki's zanpaktu are similar as they are both permanent shikai releases because of their massive reitsu

also i have a feeling that what ichigo is seeing is really just a hallucination and his hallow is about to come out and go nuts remember he said that he WILL buck ichigo off him if he was given the chance to and he tends to come out when ichigo is about to get his ass handed to him and has the want and drive to continue on and fight

but if u notice on page 17 in the 3rd frame and the rest of the frames from there on for the rest of that page seems to show that "feeling" of a massive amount of spirit preasure coming down though i could just be reading far into this



ichigo's bankai is a compressed form of all his abilities down into a tiny space its like taking a room full of gas and compressing it down to the area of something like a small glass and exploding it, its essentially doing that, ichigo already excelling at shunpo and is highly skilled in martial arts

Kenpachi's sword hasn't changed since he first got it or else he would have said about it changing atleast once. So unless he's so powerful that he has his shikai automatically(which is impossible or ichigo with his high high high amounts or reitsu he would have had hiltless Zanpakauto from step one) I think she meant his was like one or the sub/scans/trans might have made a mistake while translating it because Kenpachi needs to atleast needs to know the name in order to get it to shikai level not meaning that he is naturally at the level of a vice-captains shikai during the SS arc

as far as the Reitsu felt then I'm not sure I think it was more like those moments where everything in the world gose negetive and stops that shows that the hollow ichigo was trying to get out but ichigo stopped it

now as for his bankai yes it increases his natural speed and ability to awesome level which is still better then his oppenents

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 05:28 PM
Urahara is probably too powerful, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't see him beat the crap out of 8 and stuff. Not sure if 8 will live or not. He could retreat again. But we've seen Urahara have a run in with Yami twice now who he was beating on without going bankai.

And that was a major typo. I forgot what number Mayuri was. Thinking he was 8 when he's really 12.

Someone point me to the manga chapter where Yoruichi says that Kenpachi has a permanent shikai and talks to Ichigo about there being 2 levels of shikai, because I can't remember it. And I went through a few chapters looking for it and couldn't find it.
Although in the manga the bankai training is sprinkled throughout quite a few chapters.

Well we are not sure about the power gap between each ranks. It could be like Vice Captain and captain, but that is unlikely.
So far every espada that has released has died or returned to an injured form.

You should post that question to this thread. http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=898




The point people make is Kenpachi not being able to use his shikai attack and take advantage of his shikai. By not knowing it's name, his shikai was weakening him. People are excited because Kenpachi might of learned it's name.

Also, I think the one to kill Tesla will be Ikkaku (I hope, I hope!). Ikkaku kicked the ass of one of Grimmjow's fraccion and I think one of Noitora's fraccion will be next ^^

I don't think Tesla can handle Ikkaku's full-powered bankai.

Were the arrancar 11-15 grimm's fraccions? Are fraccions ranked?

Ikkaku barely defeated his opponent Edorad Leones. Unless he also like his captain, and have increased in power by mastering his bankai, then yes I think he could win against Tesla.

Travis
October 27, 2007, 05:32 PM
The point people make is Kenpachi not being able to use his shikai attack and take advantage of his shikai. By not knowing it's name, his shikai was weakening him. People are excited because Kenpachi might of learned it's name.

Also, I think the one to kill Tesla will be Ikkaku (I hope, I hope!). Ikkaku kicked the ass of one of Grimmjow's fraccion and I think one of Noitora's fraccion will be next ^^

I don't think Tesla can handle Ikkaku's full-powered bankai.

And the point people who have read the manga and remember what has happened are making is that you can't have a shikai without knowing the name of your zanpaktou. You can't have a shikai that is always permanent even though you don't know the name of your zanpaktou. It just doesn't make sense according to the story of it.
When Kenpachi fought Ichigo it is mentioned he doesn't know the name of his zanpaktou repeatedly. He only has a basic zanpaktou.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 05:33 PM
Well we are not sure about the power gap between each ranks. It could be like Vice Captain and captain, but that is unlikely.
So far every espada that has released has died or returned to an injured form.

You should post that question to this thread. http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=898





Where the arrancar 11-15 grimm's fraccions? Are fraccions ranked?

Ikkaku barely defeated his opponent Edorad Leones. Unless he also like his captain, and have increased in power by mastering his bankai, then yes I think he could win against Tesla.

I don't think grim has fraccions if anything they where those kids that he killed

Ikkaku got owned and would get owned on anyone above Leones level if he hasn't trainned that much and he could possible take down Yami

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 05:43 PM
And the point people who have read the manga and remember what has happened are making is that you can't have a shikai without knowing the name of your zanpaktou. You can't have a shikai that is always permanent even though you don't know the name of your zanpaktou. It just doesn't make sense according to the story of it.
When Kenpachi fought Ichigo it is mentioned he doesn't know the name of his zanpaktou repeatedly. He only has a basic zanpaktou.

It is a fact that Kenpachi does indeed have a shikai release.
His release is a full time one like Ichigo..

Here is the link to page http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/120/07/

rtyd1
October 27, 2007, 05:53 PM
And the point people who have read the manga and remember what has happened are making is that you can't have a shikai without knowing the name of your zanpaktou. You can't have a shikai that is always permanent even though you don't know the name of your zanpaktou. It just doesn't make sense according to the story of it.
When Kenpachi fought Ichigo it is mentioned he doesn't know the name of his zanpaktou repeatedly. He only has a basic zanpaktou.

It says in the databooks which Kubo wrote, that Zaraki's zanpaktou is in a constant shikai state like Ichigo's.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 05:58 PM
It says in the databooks which Kubo wrote, that Zaraki's zanpaktou is in a constant shikai state like Ichigo's.

Can you post a link so people can see. So they will know for a fact.

Travis
October 27, 2007, 06:00 PM
It is a fact that Kenpachi does indeed have a shikai release.
His release is a full time one like Ichigo..

Here is the link to page http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/120/07/

Thats not a fact. I saw that page. He asks a couple of questions and the question is never answered. Yoruichi also goes on to say that Kenpachi is the only one to ever become a captain without knowing the name of his zanpaktou.

So she basically answers the question that Kenpachi's zanpaktou is different from Ichigo's always released zanpaktou.

Yeah post the databooks because I've googled bleach databooks and I can't find any that are translated to english except for 30 pages of this databook called Souls.
And most are just pictures. A few pages go into the bleach story but its just the basics from the beginning of the story. People have also said that Kubo is credited at the end of the databook, but it doesn't exactly say he wrote the databooks. I also doubt that the power levels someone posted on the captains strengths that came from the databooks are accurate to the storyline. It just doesn't make much sense.

Ziero
October 27, 2007, 06:02 PM
Ikkaku got owned and would get owned on anyone above Leones level if he hasn't trainned that much and he could possible take down Yami

the main problem with Ikkaku is his fighting style. He is very reckless and often takes unnecessary wounds. The main reason he got so badly hurt against Leones is the nature of his bankai. It turns his zanpaktou into a huge mass of power leaving it wide open to counter attack. So unless he takes things more carefully he wouldn't have an easier time with Tesla i think.

ANBU4U
October 27, 2007, 06:03 PM
Shunsui Kyōraku has next to NO ties with Chad, so why on earth is everyone tying him to his rescue as they are Byakuya to Rukia's? Just because he's the only shiningami with ANY sort of connection with Chad doesn't make him a default for his rescue.

That said, neither Shunsui Kyōraku, Shigekuni Yamamoto-Genryūsai, nor Jūshirō Ukitake would show up in HM as their presence would FORCE Aizen into serious action....and this arc is clearly a precursor to the War, not the War itself.

It's basically serving to bring characters like Inoue and Chad up to snuff (as they couldn't be counted on to take on so much as a Vice-Captain following the SS arc) and to build meaningful relationships between the main protagonist and new antagonist thus adding drama to the upcoming clash. To that effect I think either Inoue and Chad will be unwillingly stranded to develop their respective gifts and build tension, perhaps both.

Don't expect a plethora of Captains to appear either....if this IS a rescue mission, it can only be Byakuya, Kenpachi, and PERHAPS their respective cohorts as General Yamamoto had a very legitimate reason to refuse the initial rescue attempt. Only those willing to defy him for PERSONAL reasons would do so (leaving out almost all who defied him in the SS arc). Byakuya will have come because of his sister, and Kenpachi for his strange relationship with Ichigo...and his pure desire to fight against overwhelming odds.

If anyone besides the accessories (i.e. Ikkaku Madarame, Yumichika Ayasegawa, and Yachiru Kusajishi) are there then it will be either Yoruichi Shihouin, Kisuke Urahara, Isshin Kurosaki, or Ryūken Ishida.......the reason being Urahara is the only person a bunch of SS rebels could get a portal to HM from, and all those listed are likely associates of his. All of which btw, having a significant tie with one or more of the characters stranded in HM.

I doubt Tite will write in TOO many rescue part members as that qualifies as a nearly full on invasion force and brings to many questions as to how someone (chad or Inoue) could have possibly been left behind. T this effect Ikkaku Madarame, Yumichika Ayasegawa, and Yachiru Kusajishi may be left at home this time (perhaps Kenpachi and Byakuya turned for HM all most immediately after releasing Renji and Rukia, thus having no time to get them), also the fathers may well be a shock left for the winters war....leaving Yoruichi the only one of Urahara's cohorts free to attempt a rescue along with Byakuya and Kenpachi (as Urahara has to hold the portal open). This makes even more sense if you consider that Urahara (like Shunsui Kyōraku, Shigekuni Yamamoto-Genryūsai, and Jūshirō Ukitake) is likely too powerful a presence in HM for Aizen to ignore....especially given his ties to the Orb of Distortion.

Finally, the Vizard have made it very clear the Ichigo's on his own if he insist on being so impulsive.

All of what I've said considering.....I'll have to place my bet on Kenpachi, Yoruichi, and Byakuya being the sole members of this "Rescue Party". Anyone more and there's just too much power to imagine anything less that a fully successful retreat.

Something WILL go wrong here, and the protagonist WILL escape in part, because of Aizen's arrogance and the defection of some Espada (likely Nel and Grimmjow). That I'm 100% sure about...and the party I just mentioned is the only one I can think of which is powerful enough to achieve a rescue...yet mild enough to keep Aizen off his toes. Simply Byakuya, Kenpachi, and Yoruichi he'll think he can handle....and rightfully so.....but he wont see Grimmjow and Nel coming, thats when his plans will falter....slightly. Enough for most to escape at any rate.

**If the accessories DO show up, then they'd be helping Ishida and Renji. But I think they'll be left home this once due to Kenpachi's impulsiveness.

$$EDIT$$

And for the love of god, Kenpachi's zanpakutō is ALWAYS released as stated in the Bleach Official Character Book SOULs; page 258.

Because he and his zanpakutō are not in harmony their powers grind and weaken each other....but he is none the less, in Shikai do apparently, to his massive reiatsu a la Ichigo.

That said, what many here are knowingly or unknowingly suggesting "OMZG!1!1 he learned SHIKAI" is that Kenpachi is now in harmony with his blade, aka he's mastered his Shikai.

For little to no good reason I might add.

Travis
October 27, 2007, 06:11 PM
You make a good point. I guess people were expecting someone who recognized Chad and might give a damn that was a captain to rescue him. Although now that we know the exequias are there which are probably considerably weaker than espada, we could see Yumichika and Ikkaku showing up to help Chad out.

Although not sure who would show up to help Renji, Ishia, and the 2 fraccion. They are going to definitely need some help, I think. :p
Not sure but didn't Rukia and Renji come another way then through Urahara? There is probably a portal in SS to Heuco or something. I mean Yamamoto refused to help Ichigo, so that kind of implies there is a way of getting there through SS, otherwise wouldn't Yamamoto say there is no way there?

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 06:12 PM
Kenpachi needs to die here by tousen's hands to show impulsiveness is not the way to go. Anyway Shunsui would be a prefect choice they do have a sort of relationship and he would recognize chad by face alone

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 06:17 PM
Thats not a fact. I saw that page. He asks a couple of questions and the question is never answered. Yoruichi also goes on to say that Kenpachi is the only one to ever become a captain without knowing the name of his zanpaktou.

So she basically answers the question that Kenpachi's zanpaktou is different from Ichigo's always released zanpaktou.

Yeah post the databooks because I've googled bleach databooks and I can't find any that are translated to english except for 30 pages of this databook called Souls.
And most are just pictures. A few pages go into the bleach story but its just the basics from the beginning of the story. People have also said that Kubo is credited at the end of the databook, but it doesn't exactly say he wrote the databooks. I also doubt that the power levels someone posted on the captains strengths that came from the databooks are accurate to the storyline. It just doesn't make much sense.

Yourichi prolly knows that Kenpachi's zanpak is a full time released sword so she didn't need to confirm it with Ichigo, since Ichigo also has come to know about Kenpachi's full time shikai. (Ex. It like sayin, isn't the sky blue. The answer is already in the statement)

Well there is no other source that can disregard it. So that's what we have to take in.
[hr]

ANBU4U
Who was Chad's first oppenent in SS? Shunshi Kyoraku - That is the connection
It's the same with Ichigo and Kenpachi, just not that deep

This Arc could be the start of the war. We did not see SS getting involed with the Rescue team but it has happened.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 06:21 PM
Funny thing Yourichi NEVER SAID IT ICHIGO DID Yourichi is short on time so she might have not been able to deny what he said and correct him

Travis
October 27, 2007, 06:26 PM
Yourichi prolly knows that Kenpachi's zanpak is a full time released sword so she didn't need to confirm it with Ichigo, since Ichigo also has come to know about Kenpachi's full time shikai. (Ex. It like sayin, isn't the sky blue. The answer is already in the statement)

Well there is no other source that can disregard it. So that's what we have to take in.
<hr noshade size="1">

ANBU4U
Who was Chad's first oppenent in SS? Shunshi Kyoraku - That is the connection
It's the same with Ichigo and Kenpachi, just not that deep

This Arc could be the start of the war. We did not see SS getting involed with the Rescue team but it has happened.

Again you didn't read what I said. Look at the chapter again. Later on in the chapter when she is talking to him about shikai and bankai. She says that Kenpachi was the only one in the Gotei 13 to become a captain without knowing the name of his zanpaktou. That basically implies that his zanpaktou isn't always in an initial release or shikai. I mean I don't want to go through the first 40-80 chapters when Ichigo learns the name of Zangetsu and its specifically said that when you learn the name of your zanpaktou you learn to release it or do shikai.

The reason Ichigo asks that question was because during the Kenpachi fight when they are talking about releasing zanpaktous, Kenpachi says something along the lines of his zanpaktou has no name and/or there is no seal on his zanpaktou. Read it again.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 06:30 PM
Funny thing Yourichi NEVER SAID IT ICHIGO DID Yourichi is short on time so she might have not been able to deny what he said and correct him

Maybe she didn't have to correct him since he was (could have been) right.

ANBU4U
October 27, 2007, 06:35 PM
You make a good point. I guess people were expecting someone who recognized Chad and might give a damn that was a captain to rescue him. Although now that we know the exequias are there which are probably considerably weaker than espada, we could see Yumichika and Ikkaku showing up to help Chad out.

Although not sure who would show up to help Renji, Ishia, and the 2 fraccion. They are going to definitely need some help, I think. :p
Not sure but didn't Rukia and Renji come another way then through Urahara? There is probably a portal in SS to Heuco or something. I mean Yamamoto refused to help Ichigo, so that kind of implies there is a way of getting there through SS, otherwise wouldn't Yamamoto say there is no way there?

None that could be opened without the Kidō Corps.....which I doubt could be done under General Yammato's nose.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 06:36 PM
Maybe she didn't have to correct him since he was (could have been) right.

don't get smug she usually would say yes or no

ANBU4U
October 27, 2007, 06:38 PM
Kenpachi needs to die here by tousen's hands to show impulsiveness is not the way to go. Anyway Shunsui would be a prefect choice they do have a sort of relationship and he would recognize chad by face alone

1: Unless he's gotten a lot better Tōsen doesn't have a prayer of beating Kenpachi

2: They're hardly even acquaintances, the only shinigami Chad can call friends are Ichigo and Rengi, and the latter only recently.

Travis
October 27, 2007, 06:43 PM
None that could be opened without the Kidō Corps.....which I doubt could be done under General Yammato's nose.

Yeah but thats the same as going to the real world right? Rukia had to go through some special portal during the espada attack, right? Not saying it couldn't happen but for all we know the dangerous missions that seated officers and above do is infiltrate Heuco Mundo for whatever reason. So it could be just as easy getting there as the real world. They were all ordered to wait in SS to prepare for winter war right? They got away with something under Yamamoto's nose.

ANBU4U
October 27, 2007, 06:44 PM
Yourichi prolly knows that Kenpachi's zanpak is a full time released sword so she didn't need to confirm it with Ichigo, since Ichigo also has come to know about Kenpachi's full time shikai. (Ex. It like sayin, isn't the sky blue. The answer is already in the statement)

Well there is no other source that can disregard it. So that's what we have to take in.
<hr noshade size="1">

ANBU4U
Who was Chad's first oppenent in SS? Shunshi Kyoraku - That is the connection
It's the same with Ichigo and Kenpachi, just not that deep

This Arc could be the start of the war. We did not see SS getting involed with the Rescue team but it has happened.

We don't know that they have gotten involved, only that Kenpachi has showed up.

And Ishida first fought Jirōbō Ikkanzaka in SS, does that mean they have an attachment?

Chad wanted past a gate, Shunsui said no, Chad then persisted, and Shunsui knocked him out cold. Thats as far as it went, they havent spoken since. Chad has more of a connection with Makizō Aramaki than Shunsui. There's nothing there that makes a rescue from him more meaningful than any other.
[hr]

Funny thing Yourichi NEVER SAID IT ICHIGO DID Yourichi is short on time so she might have not been able to deny what he said and correct him

This seriously isn't a debatable topic.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 06:47 PM
We don't know that they have gotten involved, only that Kenpachi has showed up.

And Ishida first fought Jirōbō Ikkanzaka in SS, does that mean they have an attachment?

Chad wanted past a gate, Shunsui said no, Chad then persisted, and Shunsui knocked him out cold. Thats as far as it went, they havent spoken since. Chad has more of a connection with Makizō Aramaki than Shunsui. There's nothing there that makes a rescue from him more meaningful than any other.
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This seriously isn't a debatable topic.

it is

anyway Tousen's power lies in his real sword ANBU because you look at the sig you'll see that it really isn't his sword

Travis
October 27, 2007, 06:51 PM
We don't know that they have gotten involved, only that Kenpachi has showed up.

And Ishida first fought Jirōbō Ikkanzaka in SS, does that mean they have an attachment?

Chad wanted past a gate, Shunsui said no, Chad then persisted, and Shunsui knocked him out cold. Thats as far as it went, they havent spoken since. Chad has more of a connection with Makizō Aramaki than Shunsui. There's nothing there that makes a rescue from him more meaningful than any other.
<hr noshade size="1">


This seriously isn't a debatable topic.

It makes it more meaningful because of the fact that they were enemies and fought with each other and then being rescued by them. That's already been done with the Kenpachi thing. Again the reason why people were predicting him because he's the only captain Chad knows besides Kenpachi that might look for him. I guess people are expecting 4 captains to show up at the different locations. Which its possible there might not be more than Kenpachi and Byakuya rescuing that are captains of Gotei 13.

I don't understand how the topic isn't debatable besides the fact that the manga never implies or says that Kenpachi has a permanent shikai at all. Although I don't know about these databooks and who writes them and stuff. I'd figure Kubo would be busy with the manga as opposed to writing power levels and stuff like this.

ANBU4U
October 27, 2007, 06:54 PM
Yeah but thats the same as going to the real world right? Rukia had to go through some special portal during the espada attack, right? Not saying it couldn't happen but for all we know the dangerous missions that seated officers and above do is infiltrate Heuco Mundo for whatever reason. So it could be just as easy getting there as the real world. They were all ordered to wait in SS to prepare for winter war right? They got away with something under Yamamoto's nose.

Occam's razor

Thats possible, but it seems more likely that they simply turned around and went through the portal that was already opened (the one they used when taking Renji and Rukia) before it closed. Perhaps the reason for their delay is that they just missed Rukia and Renji's entrance to HM and simply had to wait for Urahara to make another one.
[hr]

it is

anyway Tousen's power lies in his real sword ANBU because you look at the sig you'll see that it really isn't his sword

Then he had best start using it. Though from the looks of it he's still using the friends.

And Kenpachi's sword being in Shikai is a data book fact, look it up online for 5 minutes and you'll find at least three different sites confirming so from the same source. Don't you think someone would have come to your defense by now it this weren't the case?

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 06:58 PM
I want to see the original page not just some argument because Scanlations can be corrupted in the favor of one party over the other. and Why would Tite directly loop hole his own manga which clearly says in order to reach even shikai you need your zanpakuto's name and I think some one would say something about "he's the only captain, to become captain without learning his zanpakuto's name but yet it's always in shikai"

ANBU4U
October 27, 2007, 07:04 PM
It makes it more meaningful because of the fact that they were enemies and fought with each other and then being rescued by them. That's already been done with the Kenpachi thing. Again the reason why people were predicting him because he's the only captain Chad knows besides Kenpachi that might look for him. I guess people are expecting 4 captains to show up at the different locations. Which its possible there might not be more than Kenpachi and Byakuya rescuing that are captains of Gotei 13.

I don't understand how the topic isn't debatable besides the fact that the manga never implies or says that Kenpachi has a permanent shikai at all. Although I don't know about these databooks and who writes them and stuff. I'd figure Kubo would be busy with the manga as opposed to writing power levels and stuff like this.

Oh I understand why people are predicting a Shunsui rescue, I'm just stating that its relatively baseless. Its not being suggested because their connection is strong (as there is just no comparing What Ichigo and Zaraki went through to the ordeal chad went through in trying to get past Shunsui) its being suggested because Shunsui is the only person with even a shred of a connection with Chad in SS. The truth is anyone could rescue him and it'd have just about the same emotional value.
[hr]

I want to see the original page not just some argument because Scanlations can be corrupted in the favor of one party over the other. and Why Tite directly loop hole his own manga which clearly says in order to reach even shikai you need your zanpakuto's name

Thats ridiculous. If you have an issue with the veracity of an established fact, then find the source and PM a translator asking them to help you out. Don't sit here and argue based on something you and only you think was mistranslated...it's pointless. Come back when you have evidence.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 07:05 PM
Dude come one not even your Sig makes sense because talent always overcomes hard work unless some one dosen't have talent at all
[hr]

Oh I understand why people are predicting a Shunsui rescue, I'm just stating that its relatively baseless. Its not being suggested because their connection is strong (as there is just no comparing What Ichigo and Zaraki went through to the ordeal chad went through in trying to get past Shunsui) its being suggested because Shunsui is the only person with even a shred of a connection with Chad in SS. The truth is anyone could rescue him and it'd have just about the same emotional value.
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Thats ridiculous. If you have an issue with the veracity of an established fact, then find the source and PM a translator asking them to help you out. Don't sit here and argue based on something you and only you think was mistranslated...it's pointless. Come back when you have evidence.

your ignoring what I said when it clearly states when he fights renji that in order to go shikai you must know your zanpakuto's name

Travis
October 27, 2007, 07:06 PM
Occam's razor

Thats possible, but it seems more likely that they simply turned around and went through the portal that was already opened (the one they used when taking Renji and Rukia) before it closed. Perhaps the reason for their delay is that they just missed Rukia and Renji's entrance to HM and simply had to wait for Urahara to make another one.
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The he had best start using it. Though from the looks of it he's still using the friends.

And Kenpachi's sword being in Shikai is a data book fact, look it up online for 5 minutes and you'll find at least three different sites confirming so from the same source. Don't you think someone would have come to your defense by now it this weren't the case?

I did look it up for more than 5 minutes. I couldn't find anything about the databook besides one called Souls. There were different sites that allowed you dl the raw. I found a site that was translating it and did the first 30 pages. Most were colored pics. Only 5 had stuff about the story in it and it was all review. I also looked at the table of contents page and it looked like it had nothing to do with talking about power levels and stuff. It just looks like review of the story so far. Here's a link to it.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5872/databooksouls024025lu3.png

Is this the same databook that you guys are talking about? Because I got the first track to it and its all just review on characters, hollows, and souls in general with no new or added information.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 07:09 PM
Kenpachi's page and I believe that's the book we're looking for I personally go off what I READ IN THE MANGA but he wants to go off the data book

ANBU4U
October 27, 2007, 07:11 PM
Dude come one not even your Sig makes sense because talent always overcomes hard work unless some one dosen't have talent at all
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your ignoring what I said when it clearly states when he fights renji that in order to go shikai you must know your zanpakuto's name

1: No matter how talented you are, if you sit on your ass someone "lesser" can beat you. Think of the "Tortoise and the hare". Here's the link if you're interested.
http://childhoodreading.com/Arthur_Rackham/Tortoise_and_the_Hare.html

2: Renji was mistaken as both the manga its self, and an OFFICIAL data book written by TITE himself, say Kenpachi is the exception to this rule. The mans zanpakutō HAS NO sealed form below Shikai.....live with it.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 07:14 PM
THE HARE HAD NO TALENT he was a hack he thought he did if he knew what talent really was he would used it to it's fullest and not been side tracked

THE MANGA WAS FIRST MADE BY TITE WRITTEN BY HIM ART BY HIM HOW COULD YOU ARGUE WITH THAT and if you look really close the DATA book was done by some one else and him not just him

Travis
October 27, 2007, 07:20 PM
Yeah I don't see Kubo writing a 250 page review of his own story up to the SS arc. Although they aren't afraid to put his name next to the illustrations he does.
It seems like the manga and databook contradict each other. I wish we could get a good translator on this. I just went to Bleach7 and Maximum7 and couldn't find any information about the databook or Kenpachi's shikai state. It just makes a point of saying he doesn't know the name of his zanpaktou.

ANBU4U
October 27, 2007, 07:22 PM
I did look it up for more than 5 minutes. I couldn't find anything about the databook besides one called Souls. There were different sites that allowed you dl the raw. I found a site that was translating it and did the first 30 pages. Most were colored pics. Only 5 had stuff about the story in it and it was all review. I also looked at the table of contents page and it looked like it had nothing to do with talking about power levels and stuff. It just looks like review of the story so far. Here's a link to it.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5872/databooksouls024025lu3.png

Is this the same databook that you guys are talking about? Because I got the first track to it and its all just review on characters, hollows, and souls in general with no new or added information.

If you want a copy of the data book page you may need to ask a senior member on this board, as I'm not positive it's been released outside of japan.

But I can guarantee you, all of the bleach MODS will tell you the same thing about Kenpachi's Shikai.

EDIT

Also look for Bleach Episode 38 for Kenpachi's word on the matter. Episode 42 is also INCREDIBLY definitive on the matter...

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 07:25 PM
and just like renji said that if you don't even know your Zanpakuto, you can't even reach the state of shikai. So unless Tite makes the statement that his sword was automatically, when he first got it so in sync that it automatically went to shikai

AND UNTILL YOU GET THAT PROOF I CAN EASILY DISPLAY MINE FROM A FACT EVERYONE KNOWS that renji said unless you know it's name you can't become more powerful
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/54/16/
because you have to be in sync with your zanpakuto to even think about become more powerful let alone have you tell you it's name

Travis
October 27, 2007, 07:26 PM
So you don't think there is a contradiction here? In the manga it says when you learn the name of your zanpaktou you learn to release it. The initial release or shikai. Now we have a captain who has never learned the name of his zanpaktou and is only being stated in a character book as always being in a shikai release.

I mean has there ever been a contradicition like that between a manga and a databook? If there is a contradiction like this then which story is right?

ttxdragon
October 27, 2007, 07:30 PM
Here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=330389&postcount=76) is the japanese transcription from the Official Character book Souls.

It is to be taken as canon material just like the Official Bootleg ~Colorful Bleach~.

The Japanese in there clearly says that the Zanpakutou of Kenpachi is, like Ichigos, a permanent released type.

edit: In the manga Zaraki states that his zanpakutou is all-time released. it's a fact in both, manga and databook.

[hr]


Please get back on track with the topic, talking about the state of Zarakis Zanpakutou ain't a Prediction, it's a discussion.

lilkwarrior
October 27, 2007, 07:44 PM
Maybe Kenpachi learned how to hide his reiatsu. According to Kurosaki Isshin, controlling one's reiatsu is a fundamental technique that all captain-class shinigami possess.

Though I remember Isshin saying that, I don't remember ONE time Kenpachi did so, or WOULD. Kenpachi, as the Soul Society arc and even the Bount Arc shows, he doesn't give a damn about hiding his reiatsu. In fact, to him, it's simply retarded. He wants to be known. That said, it's going to be somewhat of a plot hole as Telsa should have sense him, or Nnoitora, as they both have demonstrated excellent sensing abilities. If Nnoitora sensed Ichigo practically miles away, I'm positive he would have sensed Kenpachi.

Thinking back about being Annoyed if Byakuya does shows up to save Rukia, someone smartly points out this IS a shonen manga. But like I said the first page of this thread, Tite Kubo would do better with less predictability and have her squad captain, Hat n Clogs, or Soifon/Yourichi (This IS after all a situation that needs a FAST rescuer). Kubo Tite would have done better if ISSHIN, Ichigo's father, was the one to save him.

While I speak of Hat-n-Clogs and others that are on earth, it's unlikely they would show up as they have the responsibility of watching the town right now, so it seems only Soul Society would be in Hueco Mundo. As I said on the first page of the thread, it would be simply perfect if the Vizard showed up, but just too soon and unlikely they would all of a sudden associate themselves with Soul Society shinigami, the same ones that banned them out of Soul Society and more likely view the vizard as enemies. They don't even know Ichigo has hollow powers beside Byakuya. If they know he does, especially Yamamoto, how would they view Ichigo now? He IS a key member against Aizen but that's a topic for another day.
Speaking of the rescue, what would they think of Nell? She IS a hollow, and no doubt had to have eaten human souls besides other Hollows. Ichigo and Yamamoto already seem to disagree on many things, would Yamamoto "change" regular judgment looking at how valuable Nell would be (and also the Vizard) for the upcoming winter war?

Back on next chapter, I rather have Byakuya help Renji (his lt,) first and again, have Rukia's captain save Rukia.
[hr]

So you don't think there is a contradiction here? In the manga it says when you learn the name of your zanpaktou you learn to release it. The initial release or shikai. Now we have a captain who has never learned the name of his zanpaktou and is only being stated in a character book as always being in a shikai release.

I mean has there ever been a contradicition like that between a manga and a databook? If there is a contradiction like this then which story is right?
His sword was already in Shikai form when he had his, just like Ichigo's was before he even KNEW his sword had a name.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 07:48 PM
Though I remember Isshin saying that, I don't remember ONE time Kenpachi did so, or WOULD. Kenpachi, as the Soul Society arc and even the Bount Arc shows, he doesn't give a damn about hiding his reiatsu. In fact, to him, it's simply retarded. He wants to be known. That said, it's going to be somewhat of a plot hole as Telsa should have sense him, or Nnoitora, as they both have demonstrated excellent sensing abilities. If Nnoitora sensed Ichigo practically miles away, I'm positive he would have sensed Kenpachi.

Thinking back about being Annoyed if Byakuya does shows up to save Rukia, someone smartly points out this IS a shonen manga. But like I said the first page of this thread, Tite Kubo would do better with less predictability and have her squad captain, Hat n Clogs, or Soifon/Yourichi (This IS after all a situation that needs a FAST rescuer). Kubo Tite would have done better if ISSHIN, Ichigo's father, was the one to save him.

While I speak of Hat-n-Clogs and others that are on earth, it's unlikely they would show up as they have the responsibility of watching the town right now, so it seems only Soul Society would be in Hueco Mundo. As I said on the first page of the thread, it would be simply perfect if the Vizard showed up, but just too soon and unlikely they would all of a sudden associate themselves with Soul Society shinigami, the same ones that banned them out of Soul Society and more likely view the vizard as enemies. They don't even know Ichigo has hollow powers beside Byakuya. If they know he does, especially Yamamoto, how would they view Ichigo now? He IS a key member against Aizen but that's a topic for another day.
Speaking of the rescue, what would they think of Nell? She IS a hollow, and no doubt had to have eaten human souls besides other Hollows. Ichigo and Yamamoto already seem to disagree on many things, would Yamamoto "change" regular judgment looking at how valuable Nell would be (and also the Vizard) for the upcoming winter war?

Back on next chapter, I rather have Byakuya help Renji (his lt,) first and again, have Rukia's captain save Rukia.
<hr noshade size="1">

His sword was already in Shikai form when he had his, just like Ichigo's was before he even KNEW his sword had a name.

no THE HILTESS ZANGETSU WAS HIS TRUE SHIKAI his BROAD katana from the start of his manga was his non Shikai form because remember renji was wondering if it was a Shikai because of it's size

ANBU4U
October 27, 2007, 08:02 PM
Here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=330389&postcount=76) is the japanese transcription from the Official Character book Souls.

It is to be taken as canon material just like the Official Bootleg ~Colorful Bleach~.

The Japanese in there clearly says that the Zanpakutou of Kenpachi is, like Ichigos, a permanent released type.

edit: In the manga Zaraki states that his zanpakutou is all-time released. it's a fact in both, manga and databook.

<hr noshade size="1">


Please get back on track with the topic, talking about the state of Zarakis Zanpakutou ain't a Prediction, it's a discussion.

Thank you so much, that was getting somewhat tedious.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 08:03 PM
Here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=330389&postcount=76) is the japanese transcription from the Official Character book Souls.

It is to be taken as canon material just like the Official Bootleg ~Colorful Bleach~.

The Japanese in there clearly says that the Zanpakutou of Kenpachi is, like Ichigos, a permanent released type.

edit: In the manga Zaraki states that his zanpakutou is all-time released. it's a fact in both, manga and databook.

<hr noshade size="1">


Please get back on track with the topic, talking about the state of Zarakis Zanpakutou ain't a Prediction, it's a discussion.

Which chapter&page dose it say he's in full time release and not the one where it's guessed by ichigo because Yourichi never replied and this might because she was pressed for time about bankai because it's a move takes 10 years to master usually and she had to get him to learn it in 3

and this is partly part of predictions because if he's already in shikai he can only go bankai if he's not that means we might see his shi and bankai next week so by figuring this out we can learn alot more about what might happen

ttxdragon
October 27, 2007, 08:22 PM
Please take a look here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/109/17/

Now, to understand this page, you need basic knowledge about the biggest Plothole the Bleach Universe has to offer: Bankai.

Bankai was introduced after Ichigo got beaten by Zaraki and never mentioned before, nor even slightly touched upon.
The difference in strength-levels of pre and post-bankai introduction is evident in the following two characters:
Zaraki Kenpachi and Ikkaku.
Both, after bankai got introduced, got an extreme powerboost that throws of fight predictions (especially with zaraki) considerably.

so,
until that point the only seal on a zanpakutou was the compression into more handy form the pre-shikai state.
And saying he never sealed his zanpakutou means basically just one thing:
he never created his own pre-shikai state for his zanpakutou, since his reiatsu was far too huge to seal it and he didn't want to bother with it, consciously or subconsciously.

In that moment it became evident that Zaraki is always in shikai. The databook just clarifies this fact for good measure. It's easy to be overlooked, but it's there.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 08:29 PM
Please take a look here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/109/17/

Now, to understand this page, you need basic knowledge about the biggest Plothole the Bleach Universe has to offer: Bankai.

Bankai was introduced after Ichigo got beaten by Zaraki and never mentioned before, nor even slightly touched upon.
The difference in strength-levels of pre and post-bankai introduction is evident in the following two characters:
Zaraki Kenpachi and Ikkaku.
Both, after bankai got introduced, got an extreme powerboost that throws of fight predictions (especially with zaraki) considerably.

so,
until that point the only seal on a zanpakutou was the compression into more handy form the pre-shikai state.
And saying he never sealed his zanpakutou means basically just one thing:
he never created his own pre-shikai state for his zanpakutou, since his reiatsu was far too huge to seal it and he didn't want to bother with it, consciously or subconsciously.

In that moment it became evident that Zaraki is always in shikai. The databook just clarifies this fact for good measure. It's easy to be overlooked, but it's there.

Thank you for making clear and giving evidence to back it up.
All this training for the winter, must have paid of for Zaraki , now we will see that he does know the name of his zanpak, but I bankai is a stretch.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 08:31 PM
OMG I hate to say this to a celeb but that wasn't a smart statement or page of choice for this argument for the simple fact Kenpachi himself dosen't fully understand what shikai bankai or normal zanpakuto is because if his spirital pressure which formed the sword was that strong that it automatcally forged a Shikai sword is just play non intelligent if you need to know your swords name which was what renji and about 5 other have repeated and you noticed how he said "THIS IS MY SWORDS ONLY FORM" meaning since he could remember he had the sword it has not changed talk to him and stayed in that form

anyway the canonical status of that book could be easily challenged for the simple fact it's co-written by some one else and hasn't been confirmed for 100% canonical status

ANBU4U
October 27, 2007, 08:44 PM
OMG I hate to say this to a celeb but that wasn't a smart statement or page of choice for this argument for the simple fact Kenpachi himself dosen't fully understand what shikai bankai or normal zanpakuto is because if his spirital pressure which formed the sword was that strong that it automatcally forged a Shikai sword is just play non intelligent if you need to know your swords name which was what renji and about 5 other have repeated and you noticed how he said "THIS IS MY SWORDS ONLY FORM" meaning since he could remember he had the sword it has not changed talk to him and stayed in that form

anyway the canonical status of that book could be easily challenged for the simple fact it's co-written by some one else and hasn't been confirmed for 100% canonical status

That would be a reasonable counter-argument if the passage in question wasn't further supported by Yoruichi (your counter arguments against that particular passage are weak at best btw) and even more definitively by the databook.

At any rate, I'm somewhat what doubtful we'll see much of anything new from Kenpachi. Tite may well be saving the juicy stuff for the winters war.......if Kenpachi one-shots Tesla here Nnoitra will be required to move from Orihime, which may lead to a healed Ichigo and Nel.

Given that scenario, Nnoitra will either run, or be killed rather unceremoniously.
Of course Zaraki probably ...no wouldn't ask for help...but Nnoitra doesn't know that.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 08:44 PM
What do guys have to say about what will happen to Ichigo next chapter. Will he finally get healed now that Zaraki can hold of Nnoi and Tesla (Speculation)

Let's stick to the topic. If you want to give your theory/opinion about Zaraki shikai/no shikai.
I have created a thread where you can fill it with your theory and ideas if Zaraki has shikai or not
Here's the link http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=590185#post590185

ttxdragon
October 27, 2007, 08:45 PM
being a "celebrity" doesn't have anything to do with this.


As for the page and point I am making:
It is a matter of fact that a Zanpakutou is a reflection of ones fighting spirit/style and personality although it does have it's own personality it's linked, affected and driven by the humans personality, since a zanpakutou is part of a soul/human and thus created by that soul.

Zaraki never cared about his name, nor did he have a name until he met yachiru.
His sword is very likely the same. It is a reflection of the user, not a reflection of some other being. It presents the subconscious knowledge of a soul and the personality of that soul.

"Knowing the name" is nothing more than "getting to know on the surface". Since they both would share the trade of not knowing their name the yearning for the name zangetsu talked about is a yearning for attention. We have seen that knowing a name of the zanpakutou makes it possible to go into shikai, but not wanting to get to know the zanpakutou makes one lose valuable resources when fighting in shikai. Pre-shikai it would not hurt the user not to know the name we've seen that in all the pre-SS stuff.
So, why would it hurt Zarakis sword? Because it was already in shikai, but the user (namely Zaraki) didn't want to get to know it.


I hope I was pretty clear, as I tend to be a bit too dry with the words and am not good in explaining.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 08:49 PM
how dose youricihi support is I want you to answer me that in the other topic but as for this one Kenpachi will die by the end of this arc
[hr]
Kenpachi will die I don't care because I think Aizen will be annoyed by Kenpachi's butting in and killing one of the top 5 Espada

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 08:54 PM
how dose youricihi support is I want you to answer me that in the other topic but as for this one Kenpachi will die by the end of this arc
<hr noshade size="1">
Kenpachi will die I don't care because I think Aizen will be annoyed by Kenpachi's butting in and killing one of the top 5 Espada

Why would Aizen butt in, He has no problems as far as Espada getting killed goes. He does not care about the current espada, all he does is tolerating them until he can get Vasto Lorde. (Speculation)

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 08:58 PM
He dose care about the current espada untill his plans which are no where near complete are done if he has no body to fight for him during the war so I would get annoyed if one of my supposed top 7 protecters was killed and makes me wonder about wonderwise.......and I would love it hell of funny if the 11th vice captain Nel and Wonderwise met

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 09:02 PM
Has the manga stated that he is still far of from getting the Vasto Lorde. Aizen has been out of the manga for atleast 40 chapter if not more/less.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 09:05 PM
But we notice he hasn't left the saftey of his "castle" neither has Tousen or Gin

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 09:12 PM
Well we don't know that yet, He could let his sword be his eyes and ears, while he goes deep into Hueco Mundo and make contact with VL.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 09:16 PM
........his sword can't be his eyes and ears...they do only one action which is make an illusion. we just know that hime is there that's who the main team is who there going to get so unless we see his figure some where deep on HM just after a scene of him in his throne room talking to VL we don't know if he's really outside

akward_silense
October 27, 2007, 09:26 PM
On a completely different topic, (and I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned but I don't feel like going back through ten pages of posts) Does anyone else smell a Hitsugaya-Ichimaru rematch? If other captains have arrived, which I think they most definitely have, I can see that in the works, and even though they probably wouldn't send him, I think Kurotsuchi should fight Szayel Aporro. that would be kinda cool and slightly fitting.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 09:31 PM
On a completely different topic, (and I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned but I don't feel like going back through ten pages of posts) Does anyone else smell a Hitsugaya-Ichimaru rematch? If other captains have arrived, which I think they most definitely have, I can see that in the works, and even though they probably wouldn't send him, I think Kurotsuchi should fight Szayel Aporro. that would be kinda cool and slightly fitting.

Hitsu and Gin match up would be awesome, but Mayuri and Syazel it will be like a contest to see who can creep each other more, and then turn into a science project.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 09:32 PM
He hasn't shown it up and I only smell Tousen Kenpachi rematch and maybe a Ichigo Aizen rematch(or an actual fight beside that utter pwning in the SS arc which was paradioed with the mario when you get a start music then the game over music)

I do want to see how the 12th captain and 8th Espada fight would go since we're not sure if Mayuri would show a new bankai or another project he's been working on

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 09:35 PM
Tousen is an excuse for a captain.(I think so) Zaraki didn't even try to beat him when they fought at SS. His bankai is basically a advanced Hide and go seek. Zaraki still pwnd him. This time it will be about how fast Zaraki defeats or kills him, or how fast Tousen gives up.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 09:40 PM
Tousen is an excuse for a captain.(I think so) Zaraki didn't even try to beat him when they fought at SS. His bankai is basically a advanced Hide and go seek. Zaraki still pwnd him. This time it will be about how fast Zaraki defeats or kills him, or how fast Tousen gives up.

God your a genius aren't you some one didn't tell you about TOUSEN REAL SWORD I even posted about it http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20593 and you think zaraki the only one who's been trainning your dead wrong if I'm right then tousens a Vizard

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 09:51 PM
God your a genius aren't you some one didn't tell you about TOUSEN REAL SWORD I even posted about it http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20593 and you think zaraki the only one who's been trainning your dead wrong if I'm right then tousens a Vizard

So tousen got himself a new sword or will get one (supposedly), then he has to release shikai and then bankai and then master it. Tousen got himself a time machine:). How many years has it been since Aizen and Co left for Hueco Mundo? 3 years at most (I am guesing) That is the only way he will stand against Kenpachi.

Well until his real sword shows up, I stand by statement. I was talking about how if nothing changes from SS arc Zaraki would totally pwn him. Well Grimmjaw seemed confident when He was about to attack tousen when his arm got cut off. Do you believe that tousen would have held his own if not for aizen warning Grimmjaw. Tousen was arguably the weakest captain from what I have seen in the manga.

akward_silense
October 27, 2007, 09:59 PM
Hitsu and Gin match up would be awesome, but Mayuri and Syazel it will be like a contest to see who can creep each other more, and then turn into a science project.

HAHAHA and that would be amazing..........but only if the dragging out of it is left out. HAHA Giant ugly baby vs. creepy drippy tentacle thing.......match made in heaven. I wonder where Renji's strength ranks when compared to Kurotsuchi though. I'm not saying that renji is as strong as him but if so than I don't see how Mayuri would do much better......
[hr]
Also, It would be 100% fantastic if we could see yachiru do some fighting....

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 10:04 PM
HAHAHA and that would be amazing..........but only if the dragging out of it is left out. HAHA Giant ugly baby vs. creepy drippy tentacle thing.......match made in heaven. I wonder where Renji's strength ranks when compared to Kurotsuchi though. I'm not saying that renji is as strong as him but if so than I don't see how Mayuri would do much better......
<hr noshade size="1">
Also, It would be 100% fantastic if we could see yachiru do some fighting....

I believe that Renji and Yachiru are the only vice captains that are on par or atleast close in power with captains that are weak like Mayuri or Komamura (Dunno bout this one)

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 10:05 PM
So tousen got himself a new sword, released shikai and then released a bankai. In what under 3-4 years. That is the only way he will stand against Kenpachi.

Well until his real sword shows up, I stand by statement. I was talking about how if nothing changes from SS arc Zaraki would totally pwn him. Well Grimmjaw seemed confident when He was about to attack tousen when his arm got cut off. Do you believe that tousen would have held his own if not for aizen warning Grimmjaw. Tousen was arguably the weakest captain from what I have seen in the manga.

funniest thing about that we hadn't see all 13 captains in action or there full power the 4th captain could easily be the weakest and Chosen one your actually forget that out of all captains Kenpachi has A. the highest pain threshold B.Is the most insane... Then your foremost forgetting that Tousen had no intent to kill him until the attack where Kenpachi did the counter. and I think you mean vice captains Yachiru is totally of captain level Renji No maybe fourth captain but no

Super Angillis
October 27, 2007, 10:07 PM
Real sword, or if Aizen becomes a Vizard, he may also help Tosen get such powers. That said, I would like to comment on Tosen. I think he is going to become increasingly evil in his persuit of justice. When he was talking about murder in the name of justice I got chills. That is the words of a fanatic who will leave a trail of blood and ruined lives behind them. It's easy to want to protect the weak. It's hard to understand the vicious. Kenpachi is like he is because of where he's from. Or on another note, dispite all he may appear on the surface, as Yachiru stated, Kenpachi is resposible for her bieng alive. His ends may be constant fighting, but he showed mercy and compasion, without even knowing it. At least he doesn't come off as a hypocrite.

Well anyways now for some actual pedicting. I figure Telsa gets taken out quickly, and Kenpachi starts fighting Noi, freeing Orohime. After they fight for a while, with Kenpachi winning, Noi complains it's no fair since he was wounded before hand. Then Kenpachi either makes Orohime heal Noi, or he injures himself. Noi gains the advantage until Kenpachi takes off his eyepatch. Noi then releases. Then...
Kenpachi-"HAHAHAHA"
Noi-"Hey why are you laughing? Your going to die you moron."
Kenpachi-"Finally... Finally I can use THIS!"
Kenpachi uses his Shikai's true power, or possibly(but doubtfully) his Bankai.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 10:11 PM
Tousen is not being an hypocrite I can tell you why ....has he killed anyone?.......has he maned anyone who didn't deserve it?.......has he actually raised a hand against Orohime rukia or Renji unless attacked first?.......he only did the murder in the name of justice because losing five men and then come back acting like it was nothing....that is a man that pretty much killed them himself deserves the wrath of justice...tousen has not done an evil thing he just appears evil

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 10:13 PM
........his sword can't be his eyes and ears...they do only one action which is make an illusion. we just know that hime is there that's who the main team is who there going to get so unless we see his figure some where deep on HM just after a scene of him in his throne room talking to VL we don't know if he's really outside

In the filler arc, he transformed his sword to Ulq, Ulq could see and hear and even fight. I dunno if fillers contrubute to anything.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 10:17 PM
In the filler arc, he transformed his sword to Ulq, Ulq could see and hear and even fight. I dunno if fillers contrubute to anything.

No I don't think they do since they are not usually done by him the manga rules are the only rules I go by

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 10:33 PM
funniest thing about that we hadn't see all 13 captains in action or there full power the 4th captain could easily be the weakest and Chosen one your actually forget that out of all captains Kenpachi has A. the highest pain threshold B.Is the most insane... Then your foremost forgetting that Tousen had no intent to kill him until the attack where Kenpachi did the counter. and I think you mean vice captains Yachiru is totally of captain level Renji No maybe fourth captain but no

That is why I said, from what I Have seen in the manga.
Tousen intended to kill Zaraki cuz he believed Zaraki to be evil. Tousen said that he wants wipe out the evil in the world. So does that mean, only people weaker than him. Tousen views Zaraki as a demon and he said the he should not live in this world.
Here's the link http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/146/02/
Here's where he said that he wants to kill him
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/147/16/
[hr]

Tousen is not being an hypocrite I can tell you why ....has he killed anyone?.......has he maned anyone who didn't deserve it?.......has he actually raised a hand against Orohime rukia or Renji unless attacked first?.......he only did the murder in the name of justice because losing five men and then come back acting like it was nothing....that is a man that pretty much killed them himself deserves the wrath of justice...tousen has not done an evil thing he just appears evil

Well what about killing 100000 people in Karakura town. Is that tousen's way of justice too. Does tousen know of Aizen's plans to destroy KTown. Or does he believe the the live of innocent people will help save live of more innocent people.

Anyway let's stick to the topic. Zaraki pwns tesla, focuses on Nnoi, release bankai, but most prolly more powerful shikai.

(Offtopic) Tousen is the next candidate for the bleach Nobel Prize for Peace. That's when Yachiru will yell punked and give it to Zaraki.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 10:47 PM
He isn't doing it with his own hands and we don't know his plan so for all we know as the hammers about to drop and Ktown he could switch sides or even be on his own side because I don't believe SS is doing such a bang up job themsleves

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 10:53 PM
He isn't doing it with his own hands and we don't know his plan so for all we know as the hammers about to drop and Ktown he could switch sides or even be on his own side because I don't believe SS is doing such a bang up job themsleves

So you are saying that just cuz he isn't doin with his own hands that does not make him evil. When you have the power to stop suffering and don't do anything but stand there you are just as guilty if not more than the person who actually did it.:)

What side is Tousen going to join, greenpeace? (A little humor):D

In his view of Justice Tousen believes in pure beings like wonderwise margera and Demons like Grimm and Zaraki. (In what i understand about Tousen) You can't make an exception when standing up for justice.
SS is atleast commited to stop Ktown from being blown apart. :amuse

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 11:08 PM
He dosen't have the power to kill Aizen by himself do you?

Okay stupid jokes worst then Sokka's from avatar

....and if you look closely at the 10 captains you won't find exactly the greatest people on earth and hollows aren't really consuming souls they just hurry the process of death(which every ones going to die some day) some are turely evil but then there are those good souls turned savage(see how I don't say evil because hollows do not do evil things) it all depends on your views because even thought it would cost alot of people there lives it's needed in order to get tousen in the postion of god when he finally dose kill aizen....see your only seeing death=bad Aizen=bad Tousen working for aizen makes Tousen bad

Neuroff
October 27, 2007, 11:11 PM
So you don't think there is a contradiction here? In the manga it says when you learn the name of your zanpaktou you learn to release it. The initial release or shikai. Now we have a captain who has never learned the name of his zanpaktou and is only being stated in a character book as always being in a shikai release.

I mean has there ever been a contradicition like that between a manga and a databook? If there is a contradiction like this then which story is right?
Unless I missed it, there's nowhere in the manga where it actually says you need to learn the name of your zanpakutou. When Yoruichi is explaining shikai and bankai to Ichigo in chapter 127, she says, "You need communication and synchronization with your soul cutter to achieve the initial release."


He dosen't have the power to kill Aizen by himself do you?

Okay stupid jokes worst then Sokka's from avatar

....and if you look closely at the 10 captains you won't find exactly the greatest people on earth and hollows aren't really consuming souls they just hurry the process of death(which every ones going to die some day) some are turely evil but then there are those good souls turned savage(see how I don't say evil because hollows do not do evil things) it all depends on your views because even thought it would cost alot of people there lives it's needed in order to get tousen in the postion of god when he finally dose kill aizen....see your only seeing death=bad Aizen=bad Tousen working for aizen makes Tousen bad
This is like the reasoning of people who think Itachi isn't bad. Tousen isn't just some pawn who can't do anything. He is Aizen's third in command. He is VERY involved in Aizen's plan to MURDER all these innocent people.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 11:16 PM
.........how do you think you do Shikai......"ROAR zabimaru" "cry benihime" even captain levels use a command and even if that was the case that means Kenpachi sure was hell didn't fill out requirement 1

Super Angillis
October 27, 2007, 11:17 PM
Tousen is not being an hypocrite I can tell you why ....has he killed anyone?.......has he maned anyone who didn't deserve it?.......has he actually raised a hand against Orohime rukia or Renji unless attacked first?.......he only did the murder in the name of justice because losing five men and then come back acting like it was nothing....that is a man that pretty much killed them himself deserves the wrath of justice...tousen has not done an evil thing he just appears evil

Before he releases his Bankai he states that "This man will eventually destroy the peace of the 13 guard court comapanies. And in fact at this very moment your are assisting the ryoka, fighing us and bringing chaos. All because your huner for bloodshed."
Well lets see, who wants to wage war on Soul Socitey, and destroy it? Aizen, who Tosen follows. Who set up an elaborate plot to kill Rukia to get the orb of distortion? Aizen, who Tosen follows. As much as he claims to hate bloodshed, Tosen fails to understand just how much bloodshed a tyrant like Aizen will cause both on his rise, and once he is in power. That's why I consider Tosen to either be misguided, or a hypocrite. Like I said his actions and words against Grimjow make me think he's becoming something of a fanatic for his justice.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 11:20 PM
He dosen't have the power to kill Aizen by himself do you?

Okay stupid jokes worst then Sokka's from avatar

....and if you look closely at the 10 captains you won't find exactly the greatest people on earth and hollows aren't really consuming souls they just hurry the process of death(which every ones going to die some day) some are turely evil but then there are those good souls turned savage(see how I don't say evil because hollows do not do evil things) it all depends on your views because even thought it would cost alot of people there lives it's needed in order to get tousen in the postion of god when he finally dose kill aizen....see your only seeing death=bad Aizen=bad Tousen working for aizen makes Tousen bad

What is with "do you", that was totally weird. I am not a Cartoon. I am real:D

The Gotei 13 has already decided that it will do everything in it's power to stop the destruction of Ktown

I am not talking about the hollows that inhabit Ktown, I was talking about the 100000 human beings.Who have not done anything wrong.

Everyone's gonna die someday is not a good argument. Tousen to view himself as "god" makes him worse.

Tousen kill Aizen is going to be a April fools joke.

I never said that Aizen is bad, what I said was what he brings, like destruction of KTown, almost killing Komamura, Killing Central 46. That is what defines him as "BAD".

I said Tousen doin nothing about what Aizen is doin is what make him bad (not working).

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 11:24 PM
Your not thinking that TOUSEN MIGHT BETRAY AIZEN!! omfg what a concept betrayal on some one who's evil and in high power

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 11:26 PM
Before he releases his Bankai he states that "This man will eventually destroy the peace of the 13 guard court comapanies. And in fact at this very moment your are assisting the ryoka, fighing us and bringing chaos. All because your huner for bloodshed."
Well lets see, who wants to wage war on Soul Socitey, and destroy it? Aizen, who Tosen follows. Who set up an elaborate plot to kill Rukia to get the orb of distortion? Aizen, who Tosen follows. As much as he claims to hate bloodshed, Tosen fails to understand just how much bloodshed a tyrant like Aizen will cause both on his rise, and once he is in power. That's why I consider Tosen to either be misguided, or a hypocrite. Like I said his actions and words against Grimjow make me think he's becoming something of a fanatic for his justice.

Yes it does say that
Here is the link http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/146/02/
[hr]

Your not thinking that TOUSEN MIGHT BETRAY AIZEN!! omfg what a concept betrayal on some one who's evil and in high power

Calm down, I can see it in ur writing that you are getting mad (Capitals). Tousen has not betrayed Aizen even after Aizen's plan to destroy KTown. After killing Central 46. When do you think that tousen might betray him when Wonderwice starts learing ABCD.

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 11:30 PM
What is with "do you", that was totally weird. I am not a Cartoon. I am real:D

The Gotei 13 has already decided that it will do everything in it's power to stop the destruction of Ktown

I am not talking about the hollows that inhabit Ktown, I was talking about the 100000 human beings.Who have not done anything wrong.

Everyone's gonna die someday is not a good argument. Tousen to view himself as "god" makes him worse.

Tousen kill Aizen is going to be a April fools joke.

I never said that Aizen is bad, what I said was what he brings, like destruction of KTown, almost killing Komamura, Killing Central 46. That is what defines him as "BAD".

I said Tousen doin nothing about what Aizen is doin is what make him bad (not working).
Tousen knows that aizen is more powerful it's called waiting for the perfect moment when he's weakned(in a fight with ichigo or something)before taking him out and making himself god since he is just

Central 46 could be corrupt He didn't kill Komamura he had the chance he knows how to kill people....like the 46 people he killed before that so I don't think he would let all this slide without some thought

K town will die and can be reborn so what the towns gone there souls are still viable for rebirth or just chilling in SS or becoming hollows because remember death in that world is not the end it's just the beginning

and I say "do you" like if you where in his seat

Nizak
October 27, 2007, 11:31 PM
Hm, I have a hunch things won't be always go to your expectations.
If Kubo wants a really unpredictable plot twist he might let the others die, Ikkaku and Yumichika are certainly here with their captain, they follow him everywhere like yachiru.

The point is, it would make the story go more interesting if they get there late, and some ppl die in the process then the " rescuers" get there... (some blanks to be filled here)
after a while Orihime joins Ichigo, after Kenpachi owns tesla and Noi.
She uses her rejection and everone comes back alive and voila we are back off...

of course this sound unlikely, but if it does happens dont say I didn't say so :P
Still I think the predictable rescue scenario is more entertaining and question is who will pop out and sve the day of the nearly dead...

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 11:32 PM
Yes it does say that
Here is the link http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/146/02/
<hr noshade size="1">


Calm down, I can see it in ur writing that you are getting mad (Capitals). Tousen has not betrayed Aizen even after Aizen's plan to destroy KTown. After killing Central 46. When do you think that tousen might betray him when Wonderwice starts learing ABCD.

OMG your not listening A. Caps don't mean anger or shouting I'm just pointing something out and if you read above you'll find out.B read above about C46 and Ktown

Neuroff
October 27, 2007, 11:32 PM
Your not thinking that TOUSEN MIGHT BETRAY AIZEN!! omfg what a concept betrayal on some one who's evil and in high power
Only an absolute moron would choose this as the time to betray Aizen. Tousen could have stopped Aizen long ago just by telling Yamamoto of his plot. Aizen never would have even been close to reaching the point he is at now.

TheChosenOne
October 27, 2007, 11:41 PM
Tousen knows that aizen is more powerful it's called waiting for the perfect moment when he's weakned(in a fight with ichigo or something)before taking him out and making himself god since he is just

Central 46 could be corrupt He didn't kill Komamura he had the chance he knows how to kill people....like the 46 people he killed before that so I don't think he would let all this slide without some thought

K town will die and can be reborn so what the towns gone there souls are still viable for rebirth or just chilling in SS or becoming hollows because remember death in that world is not the end it's just the beginning

and I say "do you" like if you where in his seat

You are stretching Tousen's actions too far. Even RoadRunner won't catch up:) (Off Topic) Tousen chose to side with Aizen cuz he believes that the path that he is walking(with Aizen) will lead him to justice. So betraying Aizen does not come up.

How could Central 46 be corrupt were they were illegally gambling and drinking.

Hollow are sent to SS when they are ready to leave their past life, or when they have to purified cuz they can't leave their past life. Hollows that committed grave sins while human are sent to hell.

How is Ktown going to be reborn, Is tousen going to plant seeds. Chilling in SS. After Souls have a hard life in Rukongai (Just an example of they are not on vacation)

That is why I said, I am real, why are you joining two different thing together, like the REAL WORLD and Manga (It's not real, Snap out of it)

JioFreed666
October 27, 2007, 11:52 PM
Well I don't see the bad in devastatingly Ktown if they're purified later or go to hell for committing grave sins

and your not thinking of the path of justice your not seeing the intend t behind those blind eyes

C46 could have done something like say not punish the killer of tousen's idol of with something along the line of a temp suspension.... and we have no idea of Aizen's past

and the process of actual physical rebirth so the souls will be reborn as children

IT"S A WHAT IF MAN just flow with me here

ANBU4U
October 28, 2007, 12:00 AM
Well I don't see the bad in devastatingly Ktown if they're purified later or go to hell for committing grave sins

and your not thinking of the path of justice your not seeing the intend t behind those blind eyes

C46 could have done something like say not punish the killer of tousen's idol of with something along the line of a temp suspension.... and we have no idea of Aizen's past

and the process of actual physical rebirth so the souls will be reborn as children

IT"S A WHAT IF MAN just flow with me here

What what your saying makes no sense. Its the worst hypothetical ever....

And even assuming Tosen has some grand injustice as motivation for his current actions...or lack there of...are you suggesting the ends justify the means? Is justice wrought by an iron fist worth having?

Regardless these theories only vaguely belong on this thread...

TheChosenOne
October 28, 2007, 12:00 AM
Well I don't see the bad in devastatingly Ktown if they're purified later or go to hell for committing grave sins

and your not thinking of the path of justice your not seeing the intend t behind those blind eyes

C46 could have done something like say not punish the killer of tousen's idol of with something along the line of a temp suspension.... and we have no idea of Aizen's past

and the process of actual physical rebirth so the souls will be reborn as children

IT"S A WHAT IF MAN just flow with me here

When you destroy somethin that has not taken nature's course, You are upsetting the balance. Why do you think all the people will be happy to take a coach class airplane to SS. Everyone in KTown is happy with their lives.

The only intend he has behind those blind eyes is to pin the tail on the donkey (Off topic)

Seriously - he wants to wipe out evil from the world that is his intend, which has already been established.

That is being very selfish, what about other people, like Byakuya when Rukia was going to be killed, or when Shiba was killed. Tousen cares only about himself and what he believes is right. Yamma said that you cannot ignore the justice of the world for your own justice.
That is exactly tousen is doin.

Didn't get the last part, did you mean just picture the scenario. (I'm afraid of heights)

Neuroff
October 28, 2007, 12:01 AM
Well I don't see the bad in devastatingly Ktown if they're purified later or go to hell for committing grave sins

and your not thinking of the path of justice your not seeing the intend t behind those blind eyes

C46 could have done something like say not punish the killer of tousen's idol of with something along the line of a temp suspension.... and we have no idea of Aizen's past

and the process of actual physical rebirth so the souls will be reborn as children

IT"S A WHAT IF MAN just flow with me here
These souls aren't going to be recycled. They are going to be completely destroyed. Chapter 223, page 11, "If Aizen repeats the ritual exactly as it is recorded in the document, Karakura Town and everything around it, living or non-living will all be completely carved out of the world and vanish entirely."

JioFreed666
October 28, 2007, 12:07 AM
what ever you'll see I'm sticking with my prediction by the end of his arc Tousen will kill kenpachi that's it I've been posting for nearly 8 hours and it's going to make me crazy from defending my views

but Tousen will show his true side when the time comes trust me and my insane theories and I get the theory of recycling from if the process is not completed but still happens and human souls are piece of paper we're here one day gone the next

TheChosenOne
October 28, 2007, 12:12 AM
what ever you'll see I'm sticking with my prediction by the end of his arc Tousen will kill kenpachi that's it I've been posting for nearly 8 hours and it's going to make me crazy from defending my views

but tousen will show his true side when the time comes trust me and my insane theroies

Christmas is still far off. I have been stating my views with facts from the manga. I bet his true side is like Michael Jackson (Plastic surgery)

There's no need for you to be frustrated, this is a forum where people predictions and theories are accepted and challenged all the time.
One day we are here and one day we are gone. agreed.
The thing is we can't be recycled and be able to surround us with life over and over again.
The paper joke was cuz of manga is drawn in paper.
Who's your favorite character?

Kopien
October 28, 2007, 12:42 AM
There were people convinced Kenpachi was an hallucination but i don´t know about you, but i´ve just realised that Kenpachi is blocking a fist with is sword(I need glasses lol), so this is almost 90% certain, Zaraki and not is inner hollow or manifestation of his inner world.

TheChosenOne
October 28, 2007, 12:48 AM
There were people convinced Kenpachi was an hallucination but i don´t know about you, but i´ve just realised that Kenpachi is blocking a fist with is sword(I need glasses lol), so this is almost 90% certain, Zaraki and not is inner hollow or manifestation of his inner world.

yes when the chapter was only released in spoilers people thought Zaraki was a hallucination.
like you said hallucinations cant stop solid things

akward_silense
October 28, 2007, 02:19 AM
why is everyone making such a big deal over tousen. Ichimaru is much more interesting. I think Ichimaru will be the one to turn against aizen and prove himself good because face it, he's just too damned happy to be evil........well that was a joke, but seriously neither Tousen or Ichimaru will falter because they are pretty twisted themselves for following Aizen by their own will. They are the only ones (through blindness and chronic eyes-closed-all-the-time disorder) that cannot see to be fooled by Aizens illusions. They are following his ideas alone and I agree with the whole, "If they were gonna betray him they woulda done it by now" thing............Other off topic prediction; Kenpachi releases bankai and goes on rampage killing everyone, shinigami and espada alike, untill he and yachiru are the only souls left and they remain in hueco mundo forever, too lost to get out. The End..........

MAITREYA
October 28, 2007, 03:06 AM
Oh my god, I simply can't believe your predictions are so complicated.
It's Bleach.

Zaraki fights Tesla&Noitora, probably revealing new tech, etc., and Rukia needs help so most probably Byakuya will arrive to stop the .. erm, afro-arrancar guy, which probably might be espada n° 2 or 3, as he looks strong enough for that.

Considering how fast the things have been going on lately, this might take 2-3 chapters or so.

..well, that's how it might be, imho.

yowatsgood
October 28, 2007, 03:50 AM
why is everyone making such a big deal over tousen. Ichimaru is much more interesting. I think Ichimaru will be the one to turn against aizen and prove himself good because face it, he's just too damned happy to be evil........well that was a joke, but seriously neither Tousen or Ichimaru will falter because they are pretty twisted themselves for following Aizen by their own will. They are the only ones (through blindness and chronic eyes-closed-all-the-time disorder) that cannot see to be fooled by Aizens illusions. They are following his ideas alone and I agree with the whole, "If they were gonna betray him they woulda done it by now" thing............Other off topic prediction; Kenpachi releases bankai and goes on rampage killing everyone, shinigami and espada alike, untill he and yachiru are the only souls left and they remain in hueco mundo forever, too lost to get out. The End..........

u know i've thought of Gin turning on aizen in the future. i can see him doing that. it's true that it's crazy for someone to make their own decision to follow someone like aizen. i think that he'll try to over throw him later on. as for kenpachi, i'm wondering if he can handle nnoitra. i don't want to doubt his power, but i'm trying to think of how he could even hurt grimmjow without being a vaizard. and nnoitra is one rank from being invincible (ulquiorra lol) but of course with the assumption that he isn't a vasto lorde, that could make a big difference, but still no opportunity for kenpachi. we'll see what he has up his sleeve. maybe he'll have some insane power-up.

drakend
October 28, 2007, 05:44 AM
u know i've thought of Gin turning on aizen in the future. i can see him doing that. it's true that it's crazy for someone to make their own decision to follow someone like aizen. i think that he'll try to over throw him later on. as for kenpachi, i'm wondering if he can handle nnoitra. i don't want to doubt his power, but i'm trying to think of how he could even hurt grimmjow without being a vaizard. and nnoitra is one rank from being invincible (ulquiorra lol) but of course with the assumption that he isn't a vasto lorde, that could make a big difference, but still no opportunity for kenpachi. we'll see what he has up his sleeve. maybe he'll have some insane power-up.
He can have all of the power up you like, even a new and brighty bankai, but this won't change things very much: Tesla will be killed in seconds, sure, but what about Nnoitra? If he releases and Zaraki goes bankai who would win? I have a few doubts about the outcome... what will happen then? The rescue team come to rescue the rescue team come to rescue Inoue will be rescued by another rescue team? :rolleyes:
At this point it's better to start an all out invasion of HM: perhaps Yamamoto realized that Inoue has the power to unseal the Hougyoku before the foreseen time and so he decided to stop Aizen now.

Suzumushi
October 28, 2007, 08:15 AM
Though quite unlikely to happen, because Noitora is too strong, it would be immensely funny if Noi pulled a cheap trick on Zaraki (who's not really the smartest pal around, i guess) to get the chance to land an opening/finishing blow but wasn't able to stab through Kenpachi's reiatsu barrier. I'd really like to see Noi's face then and Zaraki casual "Did you do something?"!

akward_silense
October 28, 2007, 08:57 AM
what if kanpachi is the first to arrive of a large scale invasion......screw a winter war, it's going down NOW....it would be good strategy on SS's part



then again, I don't think anyone remembers a time where 1st captain came up with a "good strategy". He just kinda squints and makes bad decisions a lot.

ANBU4U
October 28, 2007, 09:56 AM
Not invading HM is a very good idea.

1) Its enemy territory....unknown enemy territory. Only an idiot would barge in knowing nothing about its defenses. Ichigo only got so far because Aizen wished it.
2) Its assumed based on Urahara's info that the Distortion Orb cant be fully activated till winter....giving Yammato time to sure up what is honestly, a VERY shot up SS. 3 of their 13 Captains just deserted (2 of which being senior captains) leaving their respective squads in total disarray.....add to that the chaos caused by the central 46's destruction and the general mayhem caused by Ichigo and Company and it just makes perfect sense to take what time SS has before a major confrontation to sure up its own forces.

Also you have to remember, while SS knows next to nothing about Aizens HM, Aizen knows damn near everything about SS's defenses. They're at a major disadvantage in just about every category....at least we the readers know about the Vizards and Urahara's complete gang...but SS doesn't know of them, so cant expect help from them. So knowing all of this, why would Yammato just send all of his forces into HM? It's an idiotic move.

I was 90% with him when he said wait to get Orihime back, the only doubt coming from what exactly Aizen could do with her powers....

I doubt this is an "official" rescue party. Likely this is just Byakuya and Kenpachi.....with perhaps Yoruichi tagging along, as those are the only people with enough of a personal attachment to those in need of rescue to break a perfectly reasonable order from the general.

If this IS an official rescue, then Yammato wouldn't have sent more than 2 captains and a few lesser officers, as anything more and a failed mission would all but cost them the war.

akward_silense
October 28, 2007, 10:18 AM
Who's to say they dont have any info on Hueco Mundo? It's not like Aizen invented it or anything. It's been there a while so I don't see why no one would have made any attempt to study it.Urahara seemed pretty comfortable in opening the gate so i think it's safe to say that it's been looked into. And how is it a bad idea to attack before Aizens one ace in the hole awesome weapon is complete. Catching them off gaurd is kind of advantageous I would think. Plus the fact that Ichigo has gone a certain length to soften them up and distract them. And as far as orihime goes, I don't see why anyone would want to let the enemy have someone who could pretty much heal all their soldiers back to perfect fighting condition. I can see how waiting and training is good but I think a preemptive strike would be the best chance of success.




I really don't see any of that happening though, I'm just arguing the point for the sake of arguing the point. Your probably right but you can't deny that it would be kinda cool to see an all out attack

drakend
October 28, 2007, 11:31 AM
It's nice reading people saying "a preemptive strike would be cool but it's too smart on SS part"... basically people think about SS, and Yamamoto in particular, as an old senile fool! :D

brazuka
October 28, 2007, 12:08 PM
So such an unlikely thing for them to invate HM.
Because that would be the last thing that the Arracars would think that they would do thus catching them off guard. Don't you think so?

drakend
October 28, 2007, 12:26 PM
So such an unlikely thing for them to invate HM.
Because that would be the last thing that the Arracars would think that they would do thus catching them off guard. Don't you think so?
Do you mean that only Aizen can be smart? Well until now it has been like this, but perhaps Yamamoto has seen the light... :D

TheChosenOne
October 28, 2007, 01:06 PM
Do you mean that only Aizen can be smart? Well until now it has been like this, but perhaps Yamamoto has seen the light... :D

Yammamoto could have gone blind.

I have thought the theory of the War happening now in Hueco Mundo. It is still plausible, but I don't think Yamma would order something like that cuz he knows how powerful Aizen's forces are.

I think the captain's that came are like rebels. they prolly did what Ichigo did when he was told not to go to Hueco Mundo to rescue orihime. Kenpachi sure fits the bill, to do what he thinks is right. Byakuya well he said that he would never break the rules again, So I guess he wont be one of the captains to save the rescue arc (If there are more captains coming). Ukitake and Shunshi have once already broken rules, cuz they believed that Rukia's execution is wrong, they could have gone against Yamma once more (If more captains are coming)

Aegiskiller
October 28, 2007, 03:02 PM
There is a lot of talk about Kenpachi and Tousen, but have people forgot about the espada thats just found Rukia? I have a feeling somebody is going to stop him because Rukia can't die, If anything Byakuya is going to stop that espada.

If my prediction is right and Byakuya does stop the espada, he will reveal his number (I think he is top 3). This is a nice time to for us to see where the ss captains stand compared to the espada, and possibly a high level espada at that.

drakend
October 28, 2007, 03:03 PM
Yammamoto could have gone blind.

I have thought the theory of the War happening now in Hueco Mundo. It is still plausible, but I don't think Yamma would order something like that cuz he knows how powerful Aizen's forces are.
Yes you're right but it's not like waiting is going to make the situation better for SS, it's true the opposite to be honest. I mean the more the hougyoku awakens the more powerful arrancars Aizen will produce: this is the classical situation where is better to be sorry today than dead tomorrow. If SS would attack now they should have some chances of success, even if the death toll would be quite heavy on SS part. If Yamamoto would be really smart he would try to make a deal with the Vaizards as well, like removing the banning from SS in exchange for their help against the Arrancars. (Yamamoto has to be aware of their existence because you can't ban something you even know about.)
If Aizen manages to arrancarize ten vastrodes then it's game over for evreyone, Shirosaki or not so Yamamoto should hurry his ass and invade Las Noches as soon as possible.



I think the captain's that came are like rebels. they prolly did what Ichigo did when he was told not to go to Hueco Mundo to rescue orihime. Kenpachi sure fits the bill, to do what he thinks is right. Byakuya well he said that he would never break the rules again, So I guess he wont be one of the captains to save the rescue arc (If there are more captains coming). Ukitake and Shunshi have once already broken rules, cuz they believed that Rukia's execution is wrong, they could have gone against Yamma once more (If more captains are coming)
Yes in Bleach evreyone does as he pleases: Grimmjaw, Nnoitra, the black guy, Zaraki (and other captains as well). LOL!

TheChosenOne
October 28, 2007, 03:19 PM
There is a lot of talk about Kenpachi and Tousen, but have people forgot about the espada thats just found Rukia? I have a feeling somebody is going to stop him because Rukia can't die, If anything Byakuya is going to stop that espada.

If my prediction is right and Byakuya does stop the espada, he will reveal his number (I think he is top 3). This is a nice time to for us to see where the ss captains stand compared to the espada, and possibly a high level espada at that.

Assuming Byakuya does come (I think it will be Ukitake that comes to save Rukia, since he is her captain and immediate officer.)

Well if the dark guy is in the top three, I don't think Byakuya stands a chance. Unless he increased in power greatly (Like almost double his strength, otherwise he's gonna get killed) I think the Dark guy is 7 so Byakuya has at least a chance. Byakuya is not stronger than Vaizard Ichigo (I think) who had trouble defeating number 6. So byakuya will fight someone weaker ie. Dark Guy (who i think is 7).



Yes you're right but it's not like waiting is going to make the situation better for SS, it's true the opposite to be honest. I mean the more the hougyoku awakens the more powerful arrancars Aizen will produce: this is the classical situation where is better to be sorry today than dead tomorrow. If SS would attack now they should have some chances of success, even if the death toll would be quite heavy on SS part. If Yamamoto would be really smart he would try to make a deal with the Vaizards as well, like removing the banning from SS in exchange for their help against the Arrancars. (Yamamoto has to be aware of their existence because you can't ban something you even know about.)
If Aizen manages to arrancarize ten vastrodes then it's game over for evreyone, Shirosaki or not so Yamamoto should hurry his ass and invade Las Noches as soon as possible.


Yes in Bleach evreyone does as he pleases: Grimmjaw, Nnoitra, the black guy, Zaraki (and other captains as well). LOL!

Yes, when Houg reaches full power, Aizen can create more powerful Arrancar, but will these arrancar be stronger than Aizen, (I don't think so). So this lets SS stand a chance since they have captains that could be on par with Aizen like Ukitake, Yamma, Shunshi.

There are some people who follow the rules - Byakuya does not do as he pleases, he strictly enforces the rules as well as follow, So does soifon. and I'm guessing Fox guy.

What black guy - the espada or the captain. (I think you mean the espada, well he could be following orders from Aizen to clean up the mess that Jarguy left ie. kill rukia)

yowatsgood
October 28, 2007, 03:21 PM
Yes in Bleach evreyone does as he pleases: Grimmjaw, Nnoitra, the black guy, Zaraki (and other captains as well). LOL!

that's true. but even so, sometimes it seems like a necessity to step out. not for all of the espada of course. Ulquiorra stepped out for the sake of keeping inoue away from ichigo. The dark espada is cleaning up Aaroniero's mess. the execution team did not make it to rukia yet. He took it in his own hands to do so. as he said himself, "no one is taking this seriously enough." Hari-bel hasn't stepped out yet, even though she seems like she has moved, she has actually been standing on the building since ch. 269, which could lead to her stepping out. Grimmjow was being defiant as usual. Aaroniero was not following orders, and nor was Nnoitra.Szayel Aporro is also trying to play around. so far the only ones that we can say that are following complete orders is Stark because he is sleeping, and the old espada because he hasn't paid mind to anyone yet. Hari-bel is technically not following orders because, she is paying attention to the situation when she should be acting like nothing is happening imo.

akward_silense
October 28, 2007, 03:44 PM
the captains, I think, will be (conveniently) on par with what ever espada they are paired up with. I'm sure thay have gotten a great deal stronger as well. It's not like all the Gotei 13 just plateaued as soon as Ichigo left, that's crazy.I would think they would send Shunsui to rescue chad, seeing as how no other captain or lieutenant has any kind of bond or relationship with chad and of course where ever Shunsui is sent Ukitake is likely to follow, in which case it is only logical that he save rukia. I'd like to see Kurotsuchi save renji and ishida but that one's kind of a toss up......byakuya maybe...i don't know. And hitsugaya and Komamura should be there because I think a respective Ichimaru and tousen match up would be fitting. I think(wether or not it is an all out invasion or just a rescue mission or even a sneaking out rescue mission) that this will be resolved in hueco mundo. I don't think there will be much of an all out war or anything because bleach tends to focus on one on one personal battles. An all out war just doesn't fit in the bleach mold...................then again tite kubo breaks molds........
[hr]
Respek Tite, Respek

notBowen
October 28, 2007, 06:17 PM
The idea that Kubo breaks molds is hilarious. Bleach is many wonderful things, original is not one of them.

The reasoning that he's bringing out Kenpachi to show that SS has finally gotten their act together and is deciding to turn the table on Aizen is sort of ridiculous. The reason he's bringing out Kenpachi is so that his many fans will be satisfied.

Jack Van Burace
October 28, 2007, 07:27 PM
Bleach may have a lot of unoriginality, but it is surprising every time. My bet is that the 11th division is out on HM for a strike, ordered by Kenpachi. Yumichika, Ikkaku and the rest of it will arrive to save the fallen and wounded. I just have no idea of how would Ikkaku face the 'Vodu-buccaneer' Espada (how I call him, for having an earring that resembles a pirate flag), after Rukia. He must be 7th Espada. And Ikkaku would still get a beating.

ANBU4U
October 28, 2007, 08:12 PM
Who's to say they dont have any info on Hueco Mundo? It's not like Aizen invented it or anything. It's been there a while so I don't see why no one would have made any attempt to study it.Urahara seemed pretty comfortable in opening the gate so i think it's safe to say that it's been looked into. And how is it a bad idea to attack before Aizens one ace in the hole awesome weapon is complete. Catching them off gaurd is kind of advantageous I would think. Plus the fact that Ichigo has gone a certain length to soften them up and distract them. And as far as orihime goes, I don't see why anyone would want to let the enemy have someone who could pretty much heal all their soldiers back to perfect fighting condition. I can see how waiting and training is good but I think a preemptive strike would be the best chance of success.




I really don't see any of that happening though, I'm just arguing the point for the sake of arguing the point. Your probably right but you can't deny that it would be kinda cool to see an all out attack

Preemptive strikes are all well and good when your own forces are maintained...which SS's aren't right now. As for SS knowing anything useful about HM...why would they? Certainly nothing about Las Noches itself...likely Aizen knew because he had deserted years ago.

On top of that Aizen would have adapted HM defenses to counter what he KNOWS SS would do.

As for Orihime...why does SS care? Thats what the entire 4th devision is for. A preemptive strike in yammato's situation is just plain irresponsible. It's not worth the tactical risk...

[hr]

So such an unlikely thing for them to invate HM.
Because that would be the last thing that the Arracars would think that they would do thus catching them off guard. Don't you think so?

No.

What self-respecting leader wouldn't plan for an invasion force after declaring war? They may not be expecting an invasion, but they are certainly prepared for it.

Thats like saying the US isn't expecting Mexico to invade.....so would be utterly caught with their pants down if they did.......save at least in that case Mexico isn't a known enemy.

[hr]

Do you mean that only Aizen can be smart? Well until now it has been like this, but perhaps Yamamoto has seen the light... :D

It really is a bad idea to invade unknown territory if it isn't your last option...especially when you're not at 100% The 13 protection squads will likely acquit themselves better if they use the time they have wisely.....there are probably about 5 shiningami who can currently compete with the top five Espada counting Ichigo and Urahara...add that to whatever tricks they have up their sleeves and some extra help and a preemptive strike becomes imprudent.
[hr]

Yammamoto could have gone blind.

I have thought the theory of the War happening now in Hueco Mundo. It is still plausible, but I don't think Yamma would order something like that cuz he knows how powerful Aizen's forces are.

I think the captain's that came are like rebels. they prolly did what Ichigo did when he was told not to go to Hueco Mundo to rescue orihime. Kenpachi sure fits the bill, to do what he thinks is right. Byakuya well he said that he would never break the rules again, So I guess he wont be one of the captains to save the rescue arc (If there are more captains coming). Ukitake and Shunshi have once already broken rules, cuz they believed that Rukia's execution is wrong, they could have gone against Yamma once more (If more captains are coming)

They only broke with Yammato because they felt his orders were beyond unreasonable.....this latest one however is quite reasonable, wise even.

And I'd say Byakuya's vow is a thing of the past by this point...as he clearly disobeyed the general by letting Rukia go in the first place.

lilkwarrior
October 28, 2007, 09:40 PM
On a completely different topic, (and I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned but I don't feel like going back through ten pages of posts) Does anyone else smell a Hitsugaya-Ichimaru rematch? If other captains have arrived, which I think they most definitely have, I can see that in the works, and even though they probably wouldn't send him, I think Kurotsuchi should fight Szayel Aporro. that would be kinda cool and slightly fitting.
I'm tired of Hitsugaya. They need to flesh out other captains like Unohana. With power differences now a big question than it has before since Tousen cutting off Grimmjow's arm like cake and the recently revisted event Aizen bringing Grimmjow to his knees, It almost yells that Tousen and Gin's power had to have been increased by the crumbling treasure. I just don't see Gin and Tousen were hiding their true power the whole time in soul society. I'm guessing Aizen had to have done so. His comment of having double the spiritual power of a captain also raises questions? Double the power of an average captain? All captains? With Tousen and Gin overseeing the Espada, with Tousen active in keeping them in check, it has to be more than fear that if they try to kill/hurt them Aizen would kill them, they're most likely at least around the top 3 Espada level, if not stronger. With a more powerful captain and maybe more along with him to see how captains measure up to the Espada, It might help make a clear understanding of how powerful Espada truly are. Hitsugaya is really overrated, he's one of weakest captains in Soul Society removing biased fans' views of him.
<hr>
Guys, I think I'm up to a hunch about Vastorde.. I thought this out in a thread where they said Hollow Ichigo (Who we call Shirosaki) is the strongest being in Bleach:

To tell you the truth, a full hollow Ichigo is no different than a soul with regrets changing to a hollow. A "fully transformed hollow" Ichigo would not be Ichigo anymore, it would be a menos class hollow. In fact, would it be ironic if Vastorde Hollows were mostly comprised of some of the Shinigami that their hollow side completely took over, when they were attempting to be Vizards? It would explain WHY it is forbidden in Soul Society for anyone to do this, besides being more of the creatures that they hunt in the first place. Have you notice that there hasn't been one hollow, even Grimmjow's original hollow form having such powerful abilities at once?

^^Vastorde, as Hitsugaya said, look the most humanoid, and if a Shinigami loses his inner battle, especially a powerful one, I'm guessing that would make a more powerful menos class hollow. It would be a shortcut to become a menos class hollow, if you yhink about it. We also have to THINK that they HAD to been people that failed to be Vizard. It would be forbidden easily because its risk AND had to be for a long time, story wise, as Hitsugaya, Rukia, and younger Shinigami wouldn't know anything about it. I think only the older shinigami would know, being Aizen, Yamamoto, Hat n Clogs, and Isshin, Isshin who seemed be very aware of the Vizard.

brazuka
October 28, 2007, 10:55 PM
I think that the 7th Division Captain Sajin will come to HM after Kaname the formet 9th division captain, and probably the other usual people who always break SS laws.

Hockeychaoz
October 28, 2007, 11:26 PM
I'm tired of Hitsugaya. They need to flesh out other captains like Unohana. With power differences now a big question than it has before since Tousen cutting off Grimmjow's arm like cake and the recently revisted event Aizen bringing Grimmjow to his knees, It almost yells that Tousen and Gin's power had to have been increased by the crumbling treasure. I just don't see Gin and Tousen were hiding their true power the whole time in soul society. I'm guessing Aizen had to have done so. His comment of having double the spiritual power of a captain also raises questions? Double the power of an average captain? All captains? With Tousen and Gin overseeing the Espada, with Tousen active in keeping them in check, it has to be more than fear that if they try to kill/hurt them Aizen would kill them, they're most likely at least around the top 3 Espada level, if not stronger. With a more powerful captain and maybe more along with him to see how captains measure up to the Espada, It might help make a clear understanding of how powerful Espada truly are. Hitsugaya is really overrated, he's one of weakest captains in Soul Society removing biased fans' views of him.


I don't think that he is drastically stronger then grimmjow. Or Maybe not stronger at all. He could be weaker. The fact that Grimmjow was just standing there and Tousen pulled a sneak attack doesn't prove much.

All I'm saying is that Grimmjow didn't see it coming.

Remember when Ichigo first fought Zaraki. Before he went in his inner world, he could block zaraki's sword if he concentrated. But once he wasn't concentrating, his sword was broken. I think Grimmjow could have blocked that with his sword or maybe even his iron skin, just he wasn't given the chance.

Aizen knocking him down with just his reiatsu? I don't know how to explain that.
I hate to say it because it seems like such a dumb answer, but maybe the Espada are under the control of his sword?

It would make sense a bit. Grimmjow still has freedom to do whatever he wants, but Aizen can influence it with unrealistic things to scare him into doing what he wants.
(i.e. Reiatsu that brings even Grimmjow to his knees.)

Honestly, that scene has always made me mad. Because Ichigo fought GJ and his reiatsu did nothing. That makes Aizen exponentially stronger.

Bah, comment on this. I wanna know what people think about this whole thing.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

[edit] I also wanna say one last thing. I'd like to think that Bleach isn't so simple that you can say:
Tousen > GJ
GJ > Hitsu

Therefore:
Tousen > Hitsu

I'd think that different styles/strengths/weakness' come into play somewhat. Just food for thought.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

[edit #2] Forgot one more thing. I don't think Tousen was hiding anything in soul society as far as his potential goes. Zaraki was about to kill him. so.... yeah.... What's the point in holding back when your about to die?

akward_silense
October 29, 2007, 12:40 AM
As for Orihime...why does SS care? Thats what the entire 4th devision is for. A preemptive strike in yammato's situation is just plain irresponsible. It's not worth the tactical risk...


regardless of what healers you have why would you want to give your enemy a healer? thats like giving your monopoly opponent a get out of jail free card just because your happy with yours. It's a ridiculous notion that they would not care about Orihime. plus the fact that healing arrancar is a perk. Orihime's true purpose is to heal the hogyoku after each use giving aizen unlimited use of it.......how is it smart in any way to just let that fly and ignore it. And I fail to see how just because a couple captains left (quite some time ago, mind you) That their forces are still in such a state of disarray and chaos. The Gotei 13 has had enough time to train already. If they aren't prepared now then they never will be. I'm pretty sure they can manage. They're not as torn up and dismantled as you make them out to be.

Orihime being in Hueco Mundo is a GIGANTIC advantage chalked up to Aizen and I think it is a down right retarded and, well, irresponsible idea to just ignore her just because you have healers.....that is definitely not the point.

If Kenpachi (and most likely others) are not there to retrieve Orihime then what are they there for? to save Ichigo??? not likely. Orihime is a lot more important of a piece to this story than you give her credit for.

honest_hypocrite
October 29, 2007, 01:14 AM
I think its possible that Aizen's unique ability is where his strength comes from. In the manga, he did say that he basically had double a normal captain's reiatsu. And frankly, imo the strength the espadas have been showcasing is more than double a captain's reiatsu. At least from the captains we have seen use full power thus far. It would be a nice slap in the face to the haters that bash bleach by comparing it to dbz. Besides, if Aizen was oh so uber powerful, why does he need an army. If there is anything we have seen from power heavy manga, it is the fact that the strongest character can only be overcome by something stronger. Anything else below their power level, no matter the numbers, is trash and insignificant. I think it is safe to assume that if we do not see an Ichigo power-up every single arc then there will be more depth to this manga.

Another point I want to make is there would be a lot less criticizing happening if we had the entire manga already done and in our laps. Of course some of it seems boring at times. We have to wait a freakin week for chapters. Imagine if movies were split into weekly segments of five to ten minutes. Sheesh

Koen
October 29, 2007, 08:24 AM
I think zaraki is going to take care of the ichigo situation, while either byakuran, either ukitate is there to take care of rukia while prolly byakuran will help his own vice-capitain (though mayuri, a freak fight would be awesome too). Sado will be help by that nanao (vice-capitain) -> capitain (forgot his name)

Will they fight? Well I don't know but got a feeling they are there to retreat and get everyone back

earthforge
October 29, 2007, 08:42 AM
Frankly, all I see are fanboys arguing for a point that is waiting to be washed out.

I agree completeley with ANBU4U. A preemptive strike on hueco Mundo (Yamamoto said so himself to Ichigo) would be an utterly stupid idea. That would put the entire world on an unbalanced platter because what if something else happened that Soul Society had to attend to? When they kept a captain in Karakura, they were waiting to see their enemies first movement. The moment they saw the power of 3 espada, Soul Society retreated to train even harder. Soul Society then refused to help Ichigo in any shape, way or form. All in all, they are all a bunch of major jerks.

And Kenpachi would suck for a rescue (except innerworld Kenbpachi.) What would make sense is the vaizards (the total number is ratially similar to the espada.)

And I'm totally against the rescue idea.

bighawke5
October 29, 2007, 09:40 AM
I don't think that he is drastically stronger then grimmjow. Or Maybe not stronger at all. He could be weaker. The fact that Grimmjow was just standing there and Tousen pulled a sneak attack doesn't prove much.

All I'm saying is that Grimmjow didn't see it coming.

Remember when Ichigo first fought Zaraki. Before he went in his inner world, he could block zaraki's sword if he concentrated. But once he wasn't concentrating, his sword was broken. I think Grimmjow could have blocked that with his sword or maybe even his iron skin, just he wasn't given the chance.

Aizen knocking him down with just his reiatsu? I don't know how to explain that.
I hate to say it because it seems like such a dumb answer, but maybe the Espada are under the control of his sword?

It would make sense a bit. Grimmjow still has freedom to do whatever he wants, but Aizen can influence it with unrealistic things to scare him into doing what he wants.
(i.e. Reiatsu that brings even Grimmjow to his knees.)

Honestly, that scene has always made me mad. Because Ichigo fought GJ and his reiatsu did nothing. That makes Aizen exponentially stronger.

Bah, comment on this. I wanna know what people think about this whole thing.



look at it this way...
Grim's iron skin is like a sword...meaning that even a sneak attack shouldnt decide wether its cut or not....its all reiatsu....The person with the most powerful reiatsu can destroy another's zampakuto while attacking...same with how a person with a stronger reistsu doesn't even bleed from the wounds of the person with a weaker reiatsu (ichigo cutting zaraki kempachi while kempachi had a stronger reiatsu...wasnt until ichigo raised his reiatsu that he was able to make zaraki bleed)
this is also the same when ichigo was fighting with the old man.....it just proved that he had weaker reiatsu than him...the whole point of fighting the old man (material form of his sword) was to raise his reiatsu and also allowing him to use bankai.....you can tell thats true because yurouichi said "his reiatsu hasn't chaanged much...it isn't increasing...but instead his fighting abilities are" when ichigo was fighting the material form of his zampakuto

this was just to prove my point that in bleach the person with the most reiatsu and that knows how to use it...basically owns...so the iron skin isn't affected by whether or not your taken by surprise...its just there...and if ichigo(not bankai form) had been the one cutting Grim's arm at that moment of surprise...it would've bounced back or had no effect unless he was in his hollow and bankai formmeaning he has more reiatsu..thus can cut through) ----so that brings the idea that tousen had a reiatsu powerfull enough that he was able to cut Grim even in his regular form

TheChosenOne
October 29, 2007, 11:34 AM
Yes, you're right, It just how much force (Reiatsu) is put on your attack. Like Ichigo release bankai and was able to cut Yammy (Cut off), cuz Ichigo put more force behind the attack.

ShaunMati1
October 29, 2007, 11:58 AM
I feel uruhara will def. be a part of this rescue mission. Remember when he told ichigo that he knew aizen was going after orihimes powers and failed to protect her from being abducted which makes me feel that if he is going to make this right he has to go himself, byakuya is my favorite SS character and i hope hes their to save someone....shunsui will be there, but i think the most likely case is uruhara and youruchi to be there....as far as i know uruhara is the only person to know how to get in Huece mundo....but has anyone thought to see the captain the faces ishada in SS (crazy scientist guy) i feel he will be a great character in this rescue to save the last quincy. REPLY**

droolz
October 29, 2007, 12:05 PM
i think the point abt the iron skin and zanpaktou is the same.. they're both formed from the user's reiatsu, if the user loses concentration, it is possible to break thru, just like how kenpachi's sword cut through zangetsu.. even if u have higher reiatsu, doesn't mean it's always released or concentrated on the skin.. so it is still possible to cut thru with a lower reiatsu (of coz not one that is WAY below level, but it doesn't necessarily have to be way above either)

TheChosenOne
October 29, 2007, 12:27 PM
i think the point abt the iron skin and zanpaktou is the same.. they're both formed from the user's reiatsu, if the user loses concentration, it is possible to break thru, just like how kenpachi's sword cut through zangetsu.. even if u have higher reiatsu, doesn't mean it's always released or concentrated on the skin.. so it is still possible to cut thru with a lower reiatsu (of coz not one that is WAY below level, but it doesn't necessarily have to be way above either)

I think the espada are born or made with Iron Skin.

TheChosenOne
October 29, 2007, 01:31 PM
Has there ever been a clear definition on iron skin?
I think we're debating 2 points. And we're both right.

It seems the general opinion on iron skin is either:

1) Their own skin fortified by their reiatsu. Making it hard, if not impossible, to cut. IF it is fortified by their reiatsu, they'd most likely have to be conscious of the fact that they're doing it.

2) Literally hard skin. They are born with this, and its just skin that is difficult to cut without a high level of reiatsu.


I was in favor of option 1.

___________________________________________________________

I absolutely forgot that Ishida fought Mayuri in the RR/SS Arc. Now I'm fairly confident that Mayuri will save him. It seems a trend that if you fight someone, you eventually will save them.

i.e.
Ichigo+Zaraki
Ishida+Renji
Ichigo+Renji
etc.

Seems somewhat likely.

___________________________________________________________

The only problem I have with all the iron skin debate is Rukia piercing Apollo's head. He should have had iron skin. (Maybe not, if he was only menos?) And Rukia does not have a high level of reiatsu. Making me think its concentration. Confusing.

Apollo had a glass cylinder. Which could be pierced by a sword.

ShaunMati1
October 29, 2007, 01:46 PM
Has there ever been a clear definition on iron skin?
I think we're debating 2 points. And we're both right.

It seems the general opinion on iron skin is either:

1) Their own skin fortified by their reiatsu. Making it hard, if not impossible, to cut. IF it is fortified by their reiatsu, they'd most likely have to be conscious of the fact that they're doing it.

2) Literally hard skin. They are born with this, and its just skin that is difficult to cut without a high level of reiatsu.


I was in favor of option 1.

___________________________________________________________

I absolutely forgot that Ishida fought Mayuri in the RR/SS Arc. Now I'm fairly confident that Mayuri will save him. It seems a trend that if you fight someone, you eventually will save them.

i.e.
Ichigo+Zaraki
Ishida+Renji
Ichigo+Renji
etc.

Seems somewhat likely.

___________________________________________________________

The only problem I have with all the iron skin debate is Rukia piercing Apollo's head. He should have had iron skin. (Maybe not, if he was only menos?) And Rukia does not have a high level of reiatsu. Making me think its concentration. Confusing.
I think thats a trend because it might be a sign of like a warriors honor or something...u fight someone who faught very well and exceeded ur expectations...its like respect. The whole iron skin thing...go back to ichigo vs kenpachi....when kenpachi broke through ichigos sword he said why did u soften ur riatsu i told u to sharpen it...maybe its the same thing with skin....if u dont soften ur riatsu ur skiin will be touch to cut..

Hockeychaoz
October 29, 2007, 03:43 PM
Apollo had a glass cylinder. Which could be pierced by a sword.

What about his face though?
Iron skin not apply to the face? Lol.

________________________________________________________________


I think thats a trend because it might be a sign of like a warriors honor or something...u fight someone who faught very well and exceeded ur expectations...its like respect. The whole iron skin thing...go back to ichigo vs kenpachi....when kenpachi broke through ichigos sword he said why did u soften ur riatsu i told u to sharpen it...maybe its the same thing with skin....if u dont soften ur riatsu ur skiin will be touch to cut..


That's what I originally said about iron skin. And the example I gave :p .
I think you have to be conscious of the fact that your doing it.

GodimusPryme
October 29, 2007, 04:59 PM
Wow, this chapter is (hopefully) the begining of one of the big things that I have been waiting for. I.E Zaraki arriving and hopefully showing us some sort of release!

I think smlvalentine has an interesting point, that this could be a hallucination with the intent of giving Ichigo more resolve, but I have a feeling that this is in fact the real deal, and we will be seeing similare apperances with the other fighters that are down, or in a pinch. My reason here is because each fighter was depicted very briefly, one after another as being in a very bad spot, rukia and chad were also pointed out as still being alive.

So for actual predictions from moi, I think that Zaraki is there in the flesh and will show some new stuff, including the name of his zanpakuto, there is to much back story for him about how painfull it is to have no name, so I think he will have at the least learned his swords name.

As for Sado, I think it likely that we will see something more from him, I don't think he is done evolving, and while we may not see anything in the next chapter, I think there is some possibility in what conn-man said about him being taken away, or at least "examined" right there by the exquisitas as that could prevoke him to evolve/release more.

Later,
Pryme

Silhouette
October 29, 2007, 05:33 PM
I don't think Zaraki made the move alone. If he's here then most likely other captains are as well; so I am going to be very optimistic in my prediction and say the "dream team" appears in the next chapter. The black espada will get confused for a second when he's suddenly surrounded by tens of thousands of razor-sharp petals then hears Byakuya saying "how dare you". The death squad will get knocked away by a powerful blow and when the smoke clears, they will see Shunsui. Szayel will scream in pain then he will see Soi Fong's mark appearing on his chest.
However, I doubt the captains will fight all the way to the end, they will be there to retrieve Orihime and everyone else after they have realized how important Orihime is, besides....it was their freakin fault she got abducted in the first place.

TheChosenOne
October 29, 2007, 05:58 PM
I don't think Zaraki made the move alone. If he's here then most likely other captains are as well; so I am going to be very optimistic in my prediction and say the "dream team" appears in the next chapter. The black espada will get confused for a second when he's suddenly surrounded by tens of thousands of razor-sharp petals then hears Byakuya saying "how dare you". The death squad will get knocked away by a powerful blow and when the smoke clears, they will see Shunsui. Szayel will scream in pain then he will see Soi Fong's mark appearing on his chest.
However, I doubt the captains will fight all the way to the end, they will be there to retrieve Orihime and everyone else after they have realized how important Orihime is, besides....it was their freakin fault she got abducted in the first place.

Why do you think Soi Fong would come for Syazel. Woudn't Mayuri be a more plausible choice.
What about Ukitake, if shunshi does come, then Ukitake has to be there (So far in the manga they have done everything together, like Go against Yamma, find out about Aizen's true goal) If Ukitake does come, wouldn't he go after Rukia, granted Byakuya would be more possible cuz of sisterly bond, but Uki is Rukia's captain. Byakuya could save Renji cuz of the captain issue.

eddy26
October 29, 2007, 06:11 PM
I keep hearing all this talk about kenpachi being a hallucination who knows it maybe but someone is coming to hueco mundo and fast. Assuming ichigo is going through another powerup stage he'd have too many things to do to help everyone else. If Ichigo gets stronger he'd have to save nel and orihime take them to a safe place then figure out where Rukia is then go flying over there to save her before she is decapitated. Do that in two seconds one to kill or damage the espada the second to get the injured rukia to a safe place. After that he'd have to fly super fast to where Chad is and stop the exquisitas from taking him. He'd have to get him to a save place and fly even faster to find renji and ishida to take out mr. mad scientist. I doubt even Ichigo is strong enough to do that at once.
So in the next chapter we will see who that person/persons are. If it is SS then I believe it is Kenpachi and the squad that was in the real world. Kenpachi I think is stronger because both of them were sent to get Hitsugaya and company out of the real world. I'm sure they weren't hanging out having tea parties with yachiru while awaiting order. Maybe Byakuya was helping Kenpachi at least find a way to find out the name of his zanpaktou they are going to be on the same side during the winter war. Shunsui isn't really connected to Chad other than him beating chad in SS.
The group in the real world got to know Ichigo and Company. Hitsugaya isn't as weak as people think he is. Yeah he had a hard time with Yami and Luppi. Yet at the end Hitsugaya put Luppi in an ice prison it must have been pretty powerful to leave Luppi injured enough that he couldn't stop GJ from wasting him. Ikkaku has bankai and is strong enough to save Chad. Matsumoto could pick up Rukia while Hitsugaya fights off the espada. I forgot Ikkaku's friend's name but his zanpaktou has that ability that no one else knows about which could catch mr. mad scientist by surprise that would allow Renji and Ishida a chance to escape since nel's fraccion could carry them out of there. That's just my theory I'm sure I will probably be way off with what actually happens but this is what I think will happen.

Lord Rae
October 29, 2007, 06:21 PM
What about his face though?
Iron skin not apply to the face? Lol.


Well if he had Iron skin I'm not sure why he would have needed a fish tank to keep his head protected... the jar and the liquid inside spoke of someone with not the strongest hold on life... like he was only kept alive by science and sheer force of will or spirit power.

Otherwise he could have carried his heads around in any number of ways... they could have been in his pocket for all we know... that mask of his didn't seem to have much in the way of eye holes so he could possibly see with them otherwise concealed. or just strap it onto your neck or whatever...

Also on the question of whether Byakuya is strong enough to take on a high level espada when he couldn't beat vaizard ichigo, I think he definitely is. Byakuya when fighting Ichigo he was doing so because he felt he had to for honor but he was ultimately conflicted and didn't really believe in the fight. Also he wasn't fighting Vaizard Ichigo but instead fighting hollow ichigo...

And Shirosaki from what we've seen is much stronger than vaizard Ichigo for some reason. He owned Byakuya, is more creative than ichigo, choked the mask off Hiyori and had to be held down by all the vaizards.... notice the difference in his strength and abilities anytime he comes out...He can regenerate entire limbs and was able to start to fire a cero that worried all of the vaizards when they had been fighting him without masks (and getting really beaten up in the process) Ichigo certainly isn't tapping into all of Shirosaki's power.

akward_silense
October 29, 2007, 06:24 PM
you know, because of the departed captains, a cool surprise would be if we saw some new people show up in captains robes........what better time to reveal captain replacements....

Lord Rae
October 29, 2007, 06:40 PM
That would be hot... but who could they get to replace? The only ones we know who are really close (via previous conversations) is Ikkaku and Renji and neither of them seem to be set for the role. Renji went to Ikkaku specifically because he knew he was the only other one with Bankai who could be considered close.

Or maybe there is more to that story and Renji afterwards found someone else? I dunno the only person they've mentioned as having captain level reitsu (that aren't evil) is Ichigo.

AngryChubbs
October 29, 2007, 06:44 PM
how long do you guys think it has been since aizen left, cause i for some reason dont think it has been that long. could be wrong, but what do you guys think, and is there any proof?

edit....
on another note, if kenpachi, byakua, shunsui, and five other people come to save everyone, dont you think aizen will start to get annoyed and start to tell the espada to attack instead of just ignore them. imagine you get an ant in your house, you say, pft, big deal. then all of a sudden there are 3, so you step on 2, and one gets away...10 minutes later, you have 20 ants there to get the 2 that you stepped on, dont you think you step on all of them and say good riddance.
for aizen to just let everyone from ss to just come in and be like, o well, no big, is kinda ridiculous IMHO

TheChosenOne
October 29, 2007, 06:51 PM
how long do you guys think it has been since aizen left, cause i for some reason dont think it has been that long. could be wrong, but what do you guys think, and is there any proof?

I think somewhat like 3 years (Maybe more or less)

akward_silense
October 29, 2007, 06:54 PM
That would be hot... but who could they get to replace? The only ones we know who are really close (via previous conversations) is Ikkaku and Renji and neither of them seem to be set for the role. Renji went to Ikkaku specifically because he knew he was the only other one with Bankai who could be considered close.

Or maybe there is more to that story and Renji afterwards found someone else? I dunno the only person they've mentioned as having captain level reitsu (that aren't evil) is Ichigo.


Ikkaku definitely refused that post but others could have grown between now and then. What about tousens former vice captain? I wouldn't mind seeing some more character development outta him

Travis
October 29, 2007, 08:01 PM
I don't think that he is drastically stronger then grimmjow. Or Maybe not stronger at all. He could be weaker. The fact that Grimmjow was just standing there and Tousen pulled a sneak attack doesn't prove much.

All I'm saying is that Grimmjow didn't see it coming.

Remember when Ichigo first fought Zaraki. Before he went in his inner world, he could block zaraki's sword if he concentrated. But once he wasn't concentrating, his sword was broken. I think Grimmjow could have blocked that with his sword or maybe even his iron skin, just he wasn't given the chance.

Aizen knocking him down with just his reiatsu? I don't know how to explain that.
I hate to say it because it seems like such a dumb answer, but maybe the Espada are under the control of his sword?

It would make sense a bit. Grimmjow still has freedom to do whatever he wants, but Aizen can influence it with unrealistic things to scare him into doing what he wants.
(i.e. Reiatsu that brings even Grimmjow to his knees.)

Honestly, that scene has always made me mad. Because Ichigo fought GJ and his reiatsu did nothing. That makes Aizen exponentially stronger.

Bah, comment on this. I wanna know what people think about this whole thing.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

[edit] I also wanna say one last thing. I'd like to think that Bleach isn't so simple that you can say:
Tousen > GJ
GJ > Hitsu

Therefore:
Tousen > Hitsu

I'd think that different styles/strengths/weakness' come into play somewhat. Just food for thought.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

[edit #2] Forgot one more thing. I don't think Tousen was hiding anything in soul society as far as his potential goes. Zaraki was about to kill him. so.... yeah.... What's the point in holding back when your about to die?

Its very likely that Aizen is that strong. We never saw him release his zanpaktou in front of Ichigo which is the ritual for the hypnosis to take affect. We saw him block Ichigo's sword with one finger. Also even though it seemed he used hypnosis on Hitsugaya and the Fox captain, he still took them out in one hit from his sword, and one unchanted kidou spell. Its also possible that he's used the hypnosis on the espada. We saw that anime filler episode of him using hypnosis on that arrancar to make him think he killed Uliquorra. Although I really don't think he was lying about the twice the reiatsu of a captain thing. I also don't think he was using hypnosis on Grimmjow when he made him kneel.

Its hard to imagine Tousen not holding back in that fight for whatever reason. Maybe so he could duck Komamaru. I mean he lost to Kenpachi with no eyepatch off and the fight was right when the execution started. After the fight with Byakuya he was somehow bandaged and on his feet when he took Renji to Soukyou. Not sure how long the fight was, but it seems difficult to imagine someone who's bankai reverted back to a zanpaktou because he's about to die is back on his feet in like 30 minutes. I mean Renji had 6 hours before he was healed after his fight with Byakuya. He was still hurt and stuff too.

Hockeychaoz
October 29, 2007, 08:17 PM
Its very likely that Aizen is that strong. We never saw him release his zanpaktou in front of Ichigo which is the ritual for the hypnosis to take affect. We saw him block Ichigo's sword with one finger. Also even though it seemed he used hypnosis on Hitsugaya and the Fox captain, he still took them out in one hit from his sword, and one unchanted kidou spell. Its also possible that he's used the hypnosis on the espada. We saw that anime filler episode of him using hypnosis on that arrancar to make him think he killed Uliquorra. Although I really don't think he was lying about the twice the reiatsu of a captain thing. I also don't think he was using hypnosis on Grimmjow when he made him kneel.

Its hard to imagine Tousen not holding back in that fight for whatever reason. Maybe so he could duck Komamaru. I mean he lost to Kenpachi with no eyepatch off and the fight was right when the execution started. After the fight with Byakuya he was somehow bandaged and on his feet when he took Renji to Soukyou. Not sure how long the fight was, but it seems difficult to imagine someone who's bankai reverted back to a zanpaktou because he's about to die is back on his feet in like 30 minutes. I mean Renji had 6 hours before he was healed after his fight with Byakuya. He was still hurt and stuff too.

Good point Travis. Never thought of it that way before. Maybe he was holding something back.


I think somewhat like 3 years (Maybe more or less)

I don't think 3 years lol.
Seeing as it takes like 6 months or 3 months for the Hougoukyou to fully awaken, I don't think they have that kind of time.

3 months is a safer bet.

Jack Van Burace
October 29, 2007, 08:35 PM
His sword can't be sealed. Thus, it is not a sealed sword: it is already in a shikai form. Even tho he doesn't know its name.

thebolivian
October 29, 2007, 08:37 PM
Since when??? This is the first time i have heard this theory. Could please explain how that works?

TheChosenOne
October 29, 2007, 08:45 PM
Good point Travis. Never thought of it that way before. Maybe he was holding something back.



I don't think 3 years lol.
Seeing as it takes like 6 months or 3 months for the Hougoukyou to fully awaken, I don't think they have that kind of time.

3 months is a safer bet.

Sorry I was also counting the bount arc. lol

Stupid of me
3 months sounds more reasonable and makes sense
[hr]

i really hope that Ken-chan has a least a shikai. If he does, when he realeases he will say something like

"Let's have fun, (insert name of sword here)"

It's kind of initiated in the manga that ken indeed does have a shikai.
In fact his shikai is full time release.

The problem is that it's not been confirmed in the manga.

But the databooks have confirmed that Ken indeed does have a shikai.

thebolivian
October 29, 2007, 08:52 PM
You don't say? Well that's a big piece a news. So if he does release in Hueco Mundi it would be his bankai or his shikai only now he has the swords name?

Jack Van Burace
October 29, 2007, 08:53 PM
Since when??? This is the first time i have heard this theory. Could please explain how that works?

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/109/16/

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/109/17/

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/109/18/

Read the freaking manga before discussing it! lol

TheChosenOne
October 29, 2007, 08:57 PM
You don't say? Well that's a big piece a news. So if he does release in Hueco Mundi it would be his bankai or his shikai only now he has the swords name?

Bankai is a strech, considering you need to achieve materilization. Mastering takes many years. I think he prolly learned the name of his sword, and he might have learned some shikai attack like Ichigo with Getsuga tenshou
[hr]

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/109/16/

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/109/17/

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach/109/18/

Read the freaking manga before discussing it! lol

There's no need to be harsh

Fortisdiablos
October 29, 2007, 09:00 PM
I think just knowing the name is enough to make him a lot stronger. All that strength he had before was all him. Just think what kind of power Ichigo got during that fight when he Zangetsu was giving him his all. Imagine that kind of power up, only proportional to Kenpachi's original strength. It would be crazy.

TheChosenOne
October 29, 2007, 09:05 PM
I think just knowing the name is enough to make him a lot stronger. All that strength he had before was all him. Just think what kind of power Ichigo got during that fight when he Zangetsu was giving him his all. Imagine that kind of power up, only proportional to Kenpachi's original strength. It would be crazy.

Agreed;)

If kenpachi does know his sword's name and infact has a relationship like Zan and Ichigo (A little more dodgy). His power would skyrocket.

Jack Van Burace
October 29, 2007, 09:08 PM
Ok, sorry if I sounded harsh, but every time I mention this ppl talk to me like I'm crazy or making it up, lol! Zaraki can't seal his sword on account of his huge reiatsu. And I get flames everywhere for pointing it out! lol

No intention of being harsh whatsoever.

kaitendragon
October 29, 2007, 09:11 PM
Kenpachi's zanpaktou is ALREADY and ALWAYS in SHIKAI, most of the shikai's have a black top with white edge, ex. Ichigo's, Renji's, Urahara's, and even Gin's Vice Captain forget his name but his zanpaktou is called "Wabisku". They all have the black on white. If you look in the manga(not the anime) Kenpachi's blade does indeed follow this color patterning hinting that it IS in Shikai. Hope this puts an end to the deal of Kenpachi's blade changing shape, cuz its not going to until he get bankai

Jack Van Burace
October 29, 2007, 09:14 PM
But I sure hope he tells us its name on next chapter! ;) Dying to find out! @_@

TheChosenOne
October 29, 2007, 09:15 PM
Ok, sorry if I sounded harsh, but every time I mention this ppl talk to me like I'm crazy or making it up, lol! Zaraki can't seal his sword on account of his huge reiatsu. And I get flames everywhere for pointing it out! lol

No intention of being harsh whatsoever.

Agreed:)
Zaraki and Ichigo can't seal back their shikai cuz of their unusually high reiatsu.


Kenpachi's zanpaktou is ALREADY and ALWAYS in SHIKAI, most of the shikai's have a black top with white edge, ex. Ichigo's, Renji's, Urahara's, and even Gin's Vice Captain forget his name but his zanpaktou is called "Wabisku". They all have the black on white. If you look in the manga(not the anime) Kenpachi's blade does indeed follow this color patterning hinting that it IS in Shikai. Hope this puts an end to the deal of Kenpachi's blade changing shape, cuz its not going to until he get bankai

I had not realized the color patterns of the shikai. Great Job pointing that out.

Travis
October 29, 2007, 09:42 PM
I don't know I still think its possible he will use the name of his zanpaktou in this fight and we may see a transformation or shikai ability. I mean he pretty much says there is no seal on his zanpaktou and thats the true form of his zanpaktou. So if this is true, then there shouldn't be a ban release either, right? I just don't think he knows what he's talking about because he refuses to believe his zanpaktou has a name till after he loses.

He also says he didn't put any seal on it. Since when do shinigami seal their zanpaktous? Don't they rise in skill and power and release the power of their souls?

Urahara Kisuke
October 29, 2007, 09:59 PM
I'm going with Kenpachi being a hallucination. A sudden appearance like that just doesn't make sense. Someone would have sensed him, they're not exactly at the Outskirts of Hueco Mundo. There's also the fact that Kenpachi isn't shown say knocking an attack away or interacting with anyone other than words to Ichigo, and the fact that when these rescues happen, they show glimpses of everyone involved in the rescue and then the chapter ends, typically. I doubt that Kenpachi would be the only one coming to the rescue. The only thing I see pointing towards a literal SS rescue party is the current situation of Rukia and Chad.


When Kubo himself writes "HE'S HERE HE'S HERE HE'S HERE HE'S HERE ZARAKI KENPACHI!!!!!!!!!!" I really doubt it's a hallucination.

Dantrag
October 29, 2007, 10:03 PM
It is indeed a bit confusing that the manga states that Zaraki's sword is unsealed which some count as shikai, because of the admant rule set that to learn shikai you must learn the name of the zanpakutou, as stated by Urahara when he was training Ichigo after he regained his shinigami powers. It's pretty much the same as removing the adamant rule of learning bankai, which is to have a shikai, materialize the spirit of the Zanpakutou and bend it to the users will. Personally changing the outlook of a zanpakutou shouldn't really be considered a shikai. Remember that Ichigo's original zanpakutou was rather gigantic only because he didn't know how to alter it's shape/couldn't alter it like Isshin said, that without controlling the form of a zanpakutou, all captains would wield swords as big as skyscrapers.

The shape thing isn't really that big of a deal, like others have said, shikai is more about the abilities of the zanpakutou than just the form. Learning the name leads to being able to learn the abilities of a shikai and thus learning how to transform the sword into a form that suits those abilities. These abilities however are different. Some shinigami like Ichigo and Urahara first need to use one command to change the form of the zanpakutou (Obviously Ichigo only did this once) and then another command for an ability. Such as Cry, Benihime or Getsuga Tenshou for their respective energy blasts. Where as others like Renji and byakuya only need a single command to change the shape and to be able to use an ability.

---

Anyways, looks like things are starting to pick it up. I was afraid that the HM-arc would turn more into another SS-arc than it already was.

Urahara Kisuke
October 29, 2007, 10:08 PM
they did explain that both Zangetsu and Kenpachi's zanpakuto are perpetual release

Silhouette
October 29, 2007, 10:41 PM
This thread started to look spammy. Please don't make one line posts or go off topic. Follow Important Guide Lines (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/announcement.php?f=43&a=27) before posting. Thanks for your cooperation

Yamazuya
October 29, 2007, 11:19 PM
Now, how could inner Kenpachi block Tesla? I'm assuming Zaraki will first of all lecture Ichigo a little but I doubt he'd let the possibility of fighting Nnoitra and Tesla go unless he's got very strict orders.

Also, didn't Ichigo's Zanpakuto change shape after he learned it's name, despite being different in shape already due to his reiatsu? I do think I remember such...

honest_hypocrite
October 30, 2007, 12:23 AM
The reason some people are confused about ken's sword is because the appearance is different in the anime than in the manga. Some watched the show up to a point then read the manga so they don't know of his sword having white AND black designs. Plus, I don't think you could actually call it a full shikai release until you do know the name of the sword.
But on topic, if someone can just beat the damn 5th espada, Orihime can heal Ichigo... and then vaizard Ichigo and bankai Kenpachi can tag team Bankai vaizard Aizen and end the arc.
Oh, and I really really hate to do this but Orihime's power sorta reminds me of Senzu Beans.

Kaemon
October 30, 2007, 02:38 AM
About the whole Zaraki and shikai thing... this is what I've always thought:

Yes, his sword is unsealed and in the form of a Shikai sword, as it would be if he knew the name, but because he lacks that he cannot truly use the power that it would bring him.
Thats really what makes sense :-/
I mean, its obviously unsealed, he just can't use its abilities.

cacwoody
October 30, 2007, 03:48 AM
hmmm...Im not sure if people have already mentioned this but i dont really want to go through all 17 pages to find out so...why is everybody so caught up on zaraki so much? after i read it the first thing i thought was happening was ss rescue team (obvious) but who? so i think that kenpachi/yachiru<--always with him :P will save ichigo...byakuya/or ukitake will save rukia and beat mister black guy, stretching a bit but perhaps kurotsuchi will save renji and ishida and take down his arrancar counterpart. and finally shunsui will get chad and afro guy out of there. also...will they fight or just hit and run? i think they will fight and if so, zaraki-noitora,???-halibel,byakuya/or ukiake-black dude,shunsui-stark,kurotsuchi-zrael. zrael and noitora will die...and maybe the black guy too, but halibel and stark might not even fight. im not sure if this classifies as "298 predictions" but i definately dont think that any fights will commence just yet. everybody will first be introduced and then fight. ulquiora will never be free and aizen doesnt care about anything :D hmm that was long...

after i finished reading this, i went to a random page of this thread and found everything that i just said :P but it was all picked apart and shot down by ANBU guy hehe

matrice
October 30, 2007, 09:32 AM
The reason some people are confused about ken's sword is because the appearance is different in the anime than in the manga. Some watched the show up to a point then read the manga so they don't know of his sword having white AND black designs. Plus, I don't think you could actually call it a full shikai release until you do know the name of the sword.
But on topic, if someone can just beat the damn 5th espada, Orihime can heal Ichigo... and then vaizard Ichigo and bankai Kenpachi can tag team Bankai vaizard Aizen and end the arc.
Oh, and I really really hate to do this but Orihime's power sorta reminds me of Senzu Beans.
Well, in my opinion not knowing the sword's name would limit his power, as he don't know how to fully utilize it: like Ichigo didn't know of the getsuga tensho and couldn't do much more than what Zaraki could do: at first he wasn't fighting with his sword, but just like Zaraki. After all removing a seal doesn't mean that you klnows your sword. This matter was already explained soewhare else in this forum, and it seems that Tite Kubo wrote a book with another guy and said that Zaraki's sword is in shikai state from the time he became a shinigami, and thus it was never sealed from the start because of his amazing rejatsu. Well, at first, after I read the manga, even I tought that Kempachi's sword wasn't a shikai, but if the author says this himself I can't say it's false.
[hr]
However, I don't think taht he will be able to keep up with Noitora, since in my opinion he isn't at Nell's level, but I think that Ichigo will regain his composture and be able to win, since if Zaraki will engage Noitora Orihime will be able to heal him. Well, Zaraki could have learned a new move or a bankai... This indeed will make him stronger than Noitora... After seeing him talking with his sword, I thougt that he was going to try achieve a better understanding of his sword.

Jack Van Burace
October 30, 2007, 09:53 AM
Yeah, I mean, we cannot forget that if the Espadas could defeat the Gotei 13, Aizen would have unleashed his plan long ago, since Neliel is his Espada for like what, 2 years? Nnoitra said the Neliel has been missing for quite some time, and if she was an Arrancar this whole time, Aizen did have at least 3 espadas at same or higher strength as she has. It was also stated she was unconscious, so her powers are the same as she had before.

hollowdemon
October 30, 2007, 10:25 AM
Also even though it seemed he used hypnosis on Hitsugaya and the Fox captain, he still took them out in one hit from his sword, and one unchanted kidou spell. Its also possible that he's used the hypnosis on the espada. We saw that anime filler episode of him using hypnosis on that arrancar to make him think he killed Uliquorra. Although I really don't think he was lying about the twice the reiatsu of a captain thing. I also don't think he was using hypnosis on Grimmjow when he made him kneel.

Its hard to imagine Tousen not holding back in that fight for whatever reason. Maybe so he could duck Komamaru. I mean he lost to Kenpachi with no eyepatch off and the fight was right when the execution started.


yeah i doubt that aizen was using hypnosis on grimmjow. After all, he is the one with the hougyouku in possession and the only one who knows how to use it more than anyone else.

About tousen, im not sure why but i have somewhat of a feeling hes going to betray aizen also i dont know how hes going to do it. A komamura vs tousen hopefully will be on the way.
but whats so strong about ichimaru gin anyway ? we've never really seen of what his and aizens power was really like. Only from the SS arc we've only seen that theyre a lot stronger than what anybody imagined by completely pwn'ing SS people, but im interested to see what their power would be and its gonna bee a longggggg time for that to happen.

TheChosenOne
October 30, 2007, 11:08 AM
Aizen's power if ridiculous, Making grimm kneeling without even exerting the slightest difficulty. Tousen believes that he is walking the path of his justice. So I don't think that he will betray Aizen. Look what has happened, Aizen plans to destory Karakura town, Tousen so far is going along with it. The only way tousen betrays aizen is if something happens to change his path of justice. Aizen will prolly already know what's coming with tousen and just kill him (If tousen betrays)

hollowdemon
October 30, 2007, 12:11 PM
So for actual predictions from moi, I think that Zaraki is there in the flesh and will show some new stuff, including the name of his zanpakuto, there is to much back story for him about how painfull it is to have no name, so I think he will have at the least learned his swords name.

As for Sado, I think it likely that we will see something more from him, I don't think he is done evolving, and while we may not see anything in the next chapter, I think there is some possibility in what conn-man said about him being taken away, or at least "examined" right there by the exquisitas as that could prevoke him to evolve/release more.



yess all the zaraki thoughts about his zanpaktou will be answered sooner or later. Yachiru ? i really hope shes gonna come and do some butt kicking of her own cuz we have to establish the fact and see why shes a lieutenant. the only lieutenant that we havent seen in action..( i think shes the only one ).

crazy prediction for sado....he's going to get taken away in las noches after whoever rescues him (whether its urahara, or the bearded guy forgot his name) failed rescuing him afterwards aizens going to experiment on him and maybe makes him into a villain ? crazy food for thought but who knows.

c420smokey
October 30, 2007, 12:11 PM
well heres my prediction, well have Byakuya show up and save Rukia, Sado will be saved by Sajin, and Renji and Ishada will be saved by Mayuri, and Kenpachi will knock out that bull thing (forgot name)

ANBU4U
October 30, 2007, 12:51 PM
regardless of what healers you have why would you want to give your enemy a healer? thats like giving your monopoly opponent a get out of jail free card just because your happy with yours. It's a ridiculous notion that they would not care about Orihime. plus the fact that healing arrancar is a perk. Orihime's true purpose is to heal the hogyoku after each use giving aizen unlimited use of it.......how is it smart in any way to just let that fly and ignore it. And I fail to see how just because a couple captains left (quite some time ago, mind you) That their forces are still in such a state of disarray and chaos. The Gotei 13 has had enough time to train already. If they aren't prepared now then they never will be. I'm pretty sure they can manage. They're not as torn up and dismantled as you make them out to be.

Orihime being in Hueco Mundo is a GIGANTIC advantage chalked up to Aizen and I think it is a down right retarded and, well, irresponsible idea to just ignore her just because you have healers.....that is definitely not the point.

If Kenpachi (and most likely others) are not there to retrieve Orihime then what are they there for? to save Ichigo??? not likely. Orihime is a lot more important of a piece to this story than you give her credit for.

Its been less than 3 months! With no one to replace the three captains that left...how is that enough time to get back up to speed?

The central 46 has yet to be replaced as well. theres just no way SS is ready to invade.

As for Orihime, she one healer. I didn't say she wasn't good, I said she wasn't worth the risk from Yammato's standpoint. Unlike Urahara he has no idea what can do in respect to the Distortion Orb.

If this is a rescue Mission, your damn right its been sent to get Ichigo and the other rescuers, as in Yammato's eyes they're valuable...not Orihime. Which I tend to agree with, she'd be better of to nearly everyone dead.

hollowdemon
October 30, 2007, 12:57 PM
If this is a rescue Mission, your damn right its been sent to get Ichigo and the other rescuers, as in Yammato's eyes they're valuable...not Orihime. Which I tend to agree with, she'd be better of to nearly everyone dead.

yeah most definitely after all...
old man yamamoto stated that orihime went there by her own actions and stated that she might be in fact viewed as a traitor by soul society.