Naruto's Hakke Fuujin Seal & the Kyuubi's Yin Chakra

[Jammer]

ok we all know that when Minato fought with the Kiubi he summoned the shinigami in order to seal the Kyuubi. from the last chapter it becomes clear that he sealed only its yin chakra.

so he must have done another sealing - for the yang chakra inside of naruto - apparently the other sealing consists of container (naruto) and a key (frog)
it seems that for this type of sealing the seal weakens with time passing -> this allows Naruto to be exposed to larger amounts of the Kyuubi chakra and he can gradually learn to control it. in order to allow more chakra to flow - the key should be used. probably Jiraya asked the frog to "turn" the key a bit during Naruto's training - so he was able to control up to three tails, but when the fourth tail appeared he lost control and the frog "turned" back the key thus Jiraya was saved from the Kyuubi. So Jiraya forbids that Naruto use "that" jutsu - the control of the Kyuubi because it's not safe for Naruto himself or for his companions.

but let's get back to Minato's fight:
He made the additional sealing jutsu leaving the Kyuubi with naruto - But why? What Jiraya said was that Minato'd never do a thing without a proper reason. And also that Madara was the only one to be able to summon the Kyuubi. So at this point I sympathize with the theory that Madara uses Obito's body thus he's able to summon the Kyuubi (he was probably restrained or out of his body /no sharingan/ after his fight with the 1st)

now imagine Obito controlling/guiding the Kyuubi coming before Minato - and Minato knows already that he is dead so he soon knows that this is really Madara (Madara even could have said it himself) and Minato knows that he can't win against both Madara and Kyuubi. Yet he tries to...
He couldn't kill Madara but weakens him while the Kyuubi is rampaging around killing Konoha's shinobi and the 4th decides to seal the Kyuubi in his son - but in such a way that Naruto could learn to control it. In order to do so he splits the Kyuubi chakra - the yin part goes in the shinigami's belly and the yang part is sealed inside naruto. He probably couldn't seal all of it in Naruto - that's why he had to split it and weaken it.

not much of a theory - the highlight is the fight between the 4th and Madara - and that's a fight I wish to see as a flashback from Madara later on ^^

the rest is just facts and other bits organized as a story, hope it's a fun read :P

[The Flash]

Its called Kyuubi

[Askia32]

"That" jutsu that Jiriaya warned Naruto not to use can't be the key because Jiraiya has the key. So Naruto wouldn't be able to use the key if he wanted to.

[Jammer]

"that" jutsu isn't about the key - it's about Naruto invoking the Kyuubi's chakra that's already leaking because of the weakened seal

the key can be used to increase the speed that the seal weakens - at the current state of the key naruto can rely on the kyuubi's chakra but only before three tails appear - it's risky even with three - with four it's already out of control

the key is intended to unlock (at least little by little) the seal when Naruto is capable of controling more of the chakra - that's why Jiraya handed it to Naruto (that will happen if he dies) because Naruto may need this additional chakra sooner or later - after all Jiraya just had a bad premonition thinking about Madara ;)

the key is probably the only way that can increase the speed of the weakening. Jiraya had to train with Naruto for that but he's afraid he won't be able to come back alive. So the frog is the only one that can control the key in order to help Naruto after doing a little explanations hopefully. That's why the key is a frog rather than some inanimate object ^^

[Alterno]

That damm jutsu. I still want to see Kakashi's "that" jutsu which were creating thunderstorms during the first chapters of the manga. I want to see "that" damm Sasuke's jutsu and Naruto's "that" jutsu... A new jutsu and not just an evolution of one. :eyeroll

[Askia32]

"that" jutsu isn't about the key - it's about Naruto invoking the Kyuubi's chakra that's already leaking because of the weakened seal

the key can be used to increase the speed that the seal weakens - at the current state of the key naruto can rely on the kyuubi's chakra but only before three tails appear - it's risky even with three - with four it's already out of control

the key is intended to unlock (at least little by little) the seal when Naruto is capable of controling more of the chakra - that's why Jiraya handed it to Naruto (that will happen if he dies) because Naruto may need this additional chakra sooner or later - after all Jiraya just had a bad premonition thinking about Madara ;)

the key is probably the only way that can increase the speed of the weakening. Jiraya had to train with Naruto for that but he's afraid he won't be able to come back alive. So the frog is the only one that can control the key in order to help Naruto after doing a little explanations hopefully. That's why the key is a frog rather than some inanimate object ^^

Can you please show evidence supporting what your theory of what "that" jutsu is?

[macherie]

Yeah at the moment 'that' jutsu is still unclear, what from what Askia says i believe it's more plausible, Jiraiya earlier told Naruto not to use 'that' jutsu, inferring it must be something naruto has already learnt.
However it may have something to do with the releasing of chakra, not too sure. =\

[jiro]

now imagine Obito controlling/guiding the Kyuubi coming before Minato
errr...
ok... thinking hard.... concentrating.. imagining..

http://www.fileshack.com/images/finclude/images/110304_wow_undead.jpg
Obito... ALIVE!

[Askia32]

[hr]
errr...
ok... thinking hard.... concentrating.. imagining..

http://www.fileshack.com/images/finclude/images/110304_wow_undead.jpg
Obito... ALIVE!


LOL

[silvermane]

maybe its that naruto has already stumbled onto the hiraishin no jutus...
and jiraiya realizing that if he uses it everyone will realized he's yondi's son
tells him not to use it....
:D
would be cool :D

[hayateblitz]

turning four tails cant be "that" jutsu cuz Naruto went ahead and turned into four tails later without a thought on Jiraiya's warning :P besides, I'd think that "that" jutsu = something learned.. I'm hoping that it'd be something along the lines of the unfinished jutsu of the fourth hokage who left the frog key in hopes that Naruto will finish it ^^

[mars0103]

in the last chapter we found out that the kyubi was split in to with yin and yang a theroy that i used to make a connection to pain being narutos dad and konan being narutos mother this is now wrong! We know that the seal the 4th used spilt the kyubi up in to yin and yang naruto of one half and thedeath god has the other or does he?

In connection to the 6 sides of pein thead (wrong tiltle sounds better) people have thought that the first 5 bodys are for elemental jutus. if the person that he captures is stronger then one of the 5 elemental state then the weaker one gets chunked.
But want about the 6th one why 6 i beeieve that that is the 4ths body holding the other half of the kyubi because naruto only has half of it and pein wanted all bijuus.

PEIN COULD HAVE HALF THE KYUBI NOW JUST WANTS TO COMPLETE THE SET.

Want are your ideas no this matter.

p.s. sorry for poor grammar and spelling to sleepy to care

[kuroi-san]

i think that where the evil kyuubi chakra went is extremely important. but we have no way really of knowing yet, and we can speculate left right and centre about who might have it.

the big question you have to ask yourself is how could pain possibly have been present to get the yang chakra? i mean... he would have had to have been in konoha at the time. which seems unlikely considering that he was probably busy wiping out Hanzou and family. and also that he is from amegakure and not konoha.

i think the idea of pein having the evil chakra is really cool. and infact gives me a very cool idea. off to post n_~;;

[Raimaru]

I think the whole topic is a result of missinterpretation. It's more likely both halves of Kyuubi's chakra are inside Naruto but only the Yang half is accessable for Naruto.

[ShadowStrike]

Minato did not die in fighting the Kyuubi, at least not in the process.

From the conversation between Jiraiya and the "key" frog, it appears that Minato found out something. This caused him to split the Kyuubi's chakra to Yin and Yang. He sealed Naruto with Yang while he sealed himself with Yin. As a result, Yondaime died. The important question then is why?

Remember, as Jiraiya mentioned, Minato doesn't do random. There also seem to be a jutsu ("that jutsu") that Yondaime wanted Naruto to learn and complete. It seems that this jutsu requires Naruto to release four tails (perhaps more) of the Kyuubi.

Now, what I think is that Minato found out something - like Madara was still alive. He realised that the only way to defeat Madara is to perform a certain jutsu. However, this jutsu somehow requires Yang part of Kyuubi's chakra. He thought that if that's the case, then he needed to split up the Kyuubi's chakra. He also realised that two different bodies are needed to seal away the two parts of the chakra. The Noble Hokage then sealed the Yin side within himself and sealed the Yang side within the body of his child, entrusting the very important task of developing/completing "that jutsu" and defeating Madara to Naruto, his son. Minato, in turn, died due to the consequence of using The Sealing jutsu, along with the Yin side of Kyuubi's chakra.

Another possibility is that Madara summoned Kyuubi to fight (i.e. the latter is the former's ultimate weapon). By sealing the Kyuubi, Madara may no longer summon it.

[DBC]

Wasn't it said(or at least this is how i infered it) that he sealed the fox and its bad chakra (IDK which word is the evil one yin or yang) but left the good chakra for Naruto to dip into

[Alterno]

Well I think these thee three Hokages and the Kyuubi had a direct relation. Shodaime was able to surpress the chakra of the Kyuubi that's why he became Hokage, of course that building the village with Mokouton helped a bit. However, I think that the first Hokage has something to be with the technique used by the fourth to seal Naruto. Why? During the first part of the manga Sandaime is worried about something sealed by Shodai in the scroll with the forbidden techniques developed and sealed by Shodaime.

I think that Shodaime left the scroll behind to Sandaime with instructions or hints about how to seal the Kyuubi in the body of someone, of course this technique was incomplete. Remember that Saidame developed a jutsu which only works with his cells. I believe that Sandaime tried to create a jutsu using the instructions left behind by Shodai, but he couldn't do it because he didn't have the Shodai's cells.

When Minato assumes the leadership of konoha, he gain access to the scroll with the forbidden techniques of Shodai, he finds an alternative to the cells of shodai or he just used the scroll as base for the sealing technique. If you consider that sandaime was worried about a technique that could release the seal, then is quite possible that Yondaime used a technique of Shodaime, at least as base for the sealing technique.

I believe that Shodaime Imprisioned the Kyuubi in mokouton twice, the first time before becoming Hokage and the second time after defeating Madara, supressing his chakra with seals, in other words like sending him to sleep in a prision of Mokouton. I've been thinking which abilites could make the Sharingan of Madara special or above the rest, in my opinion the Sharingan of Madara copy and adapts the Kekkai Genkai (advanced bloodline limit) of his oponents, but Shodaime used his ability to supress chakra and used it on him, sealing some of his abilities and making him blind in one of his eyes.

[lordHokage]

Very good theory, Alterno. Could you please enlarge the font size so I can read your theory again? Thank you. :)

[Alterno]

Very good theory, Alterno. Could you please enlarge the font size so I can read your theory again? Thank you. :)

Done, but you know that you can do that perfectly with internet explorer 7, just press ctrl and scroll up, stop feeding the fox. :p

[lordHokage]

During the first part of the manga Sandaime is worried about something sealed by Shodai in the scroll with the forbidden techniques developed and sealed by Shodaime. Remember that Saidame developed a jutsu which only works with his cells.

I would love to see the black and white pages of Naruto's Manga, please. Once again, thank you. :)

[ShadowStrike]

During the first part of the manga Sandaime is worried about something sealed by Shodai in the scroll with the forbidden techniques developed and sealed by Shodaime.


Good theory, Alterno.

I'm confused here. I think Sarutobi said the scroll of forbidden jutsu by the previous Hokage and not the first Hokage. I think he meant Yondaime here. Also you meant "Shodaime develope the technique with his cell" not Sandaime?
[hr]

Done, but you know that you can do that perfectly with internet explorer 7, just press ctrl and scroll up, stop feeding the fox. :p

Firefox can zoom just fine. We should support diversity, not monopoly.

[Alterno]

Good theory, Alterno.

I'm confused here. I think Sarutobi said the scroll of forbidden jutsu by the previous Hokage and not the first Hokage. I think he meant Yondaime here. Also you meant "Shodaime develope the technique with his cell" not Sandaime?

Nope, it was the scroll left behind by the first Hokage, he forbidden those techniques. So basically the first Hokage created the Kagebunshin not jutsu.

Yeah, the fact is that Shodaime developed that technique of supressing the chakra of the Kyuubi. For some reason only with his cells you are able to perfom that technique, that's why Yamato is with Naruto and that's why Shodai became Hokage.



Firefox can zoom just fine. We should support diversity, not monopoly.[/quote]

[jiro]

hakke fuuin - Eight Trigrams Seal


Jiraiya summon Toads - SEALs...
Toad:Why did you summon me? you know that Naruto's key is already...
Jiraiya:No, no, this isnt about training...


training for Jiraiya
Theory - training to improve/reform the seals. read below.


Jiraiya:This is just a precaution... now, com on, i need to activate the seal of release...
Toad:how long is this going to take?

Jiraiya:but if something happens to me you need to entrust yourselft to naruto...

Toad:WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?!

on this part, there was no reaction from the frog.. but only after when jiraiya said to entrust himself to naruto.
hmm.. im getting a funny fealling here. cant figure it out.


Toad:the key to naruto's HAKKE FUIIN is recorded in my stomach.
The 4th seal has weakend, this key was recorded that it could be used to reform the seal when the time comes. you want to store the key right next to the vault it opens!?

So it's like saying... Jiraiya activated the push button key, Naruto is the nuke.
The toad is worried about the button key right next to the nuke.

seal of release - is to release the hakke fuuin seal then...
hakke fuuin - Eight Trigrams Seal - this is the double SHISHOU FUUIN (4 symbols seal ) = 8 Trigrams - Hakke Fuuin, right?

Translator said reform (not sure about other translator), so the key can be used to improve or change the current form. read below.


Jiraiya:be that as it may, it has to be passed down to Naruto.
Toad:THIS is too soon! hope you havent forgotten when you messed up with the SHISHOU FUUIN (4 symbols seal )

Jiraiya:of course not, but minato entrusted that key to me... I believe he meant for naruto to COMPLETE THAT JUSTSU!!

Toad:do you really thing naruto need that kind of justu?!

whoa.. what? ok.. so this is another incomplete jutsu. a jutsu to completely control the chakkra (read frogs comments below). I think Jiraiya tried to reform the seal.


Toad:he doesnt have the ability to control the kyubiis chakkra... Not to mention that slightest use of the key caused the kyubii's chakkra to overwhelm naruto's own. and flow through him in huge quantities taking over naruto's entire body! if the seal is released any further, naruto will undergo a complete transformation

Jiraiya:Minato only sealed the dark chakkra with the Shiki Fuujin (Dead Demon Seal)

Jiraiya:The sole REASON for the sealing the "Yang" Half into naruto was so that naruto could posses the Kyuubi's chakra.

Jiraiya:But why go through sealing the kyubii's chakra into his own son?

Toad:who knows..

Ok. this part has suggest alot of things.
Shiki Fuujin is what Sarutobi used againts Orochimaru - Causing Minato to die as well.
Minato sealed the Dark chakra - to himself???
Shishou Fuuin was used to seal the Yang chakra to Naruto (sealing of a large animal or demon and the user wont die.)
Double sealed it - 4 symbols... thereby 8 Trigrams - Hakke Fuuin...


if minato was aware of an important fact... and that was the reason he entrusted the power of the kyuubi into his own child.


the only person capable of summoning the kyubii is Uchiha madara (frog confirms it, but only if he was still alive)
So its implied that... Madara onced summoned the kyubii but was defeated by Shodaime. After that Kyubii has randomly appeared and attacked village every since. So its like a cursed to konoha?...

--------------------------------------------------------
so...
1. there's an incomplete jutsu
2. naruto can completely control the kyuibi's chakra
3. the seal can be improved.
4. Jiraiya has been trying to reformed it.
5. Naruto is left to complete it if he doesnt make it alive.

[Decorus]

1. Yes
2. In theory yes, in practice he gets overwhelmed and turns into a raging 4 tailed berserker.
3. The seal can be opened further or sealed or altered if someone has the key ie the Frog.
4. Jiraiya partially opened one of the 4 part seals resulting in Naruto being overwhelmed by Kyuubi's chakra and nearly killing Jiraiya. He miscalculated and nearly died as a result.
5. Jiraiya, believes Naruto can control Kyuubi's chakra just like Yamato can if Naruto wishes.

Madara fought with Shodaime and lost thats the only details we have and its believed that Shodaime killed Madara, Jiraiya believes otherwise. Jiraiya thinks that Madara is responsible for Kyuubi's attack on Konoha, which may have happened every 15 years or so. Interesting enough the Akatsuki are looking for people with a special chakra and thier bases have a kind of malevolent feeling chakra around them.

[bean]

5. Jiraiya, believes Naruto can control Kyuubi's chakra just like Yamato can if Naruto wishes.

technically, yamato can only supress the kyuubi chakra, not control it.

[Decorus]

Doh should have put does...

Yamato and the First both could supress it, but they also have serious limitations in terms of how long they can continue to do so as they both eventually would simply be overwhelmed and run out of chakra.

What I meant to say, (I got distracted for a moment) was that Yamato believes like Jiraiya and Minato that one day Naruto has the capacity to control Kyuubi's chakra. Of course this goes back to Sasuke entering Kyuubi and "Supressing" Kyuubi. It may very well be Naruto was responsible and Kyuubi was trying to keep Naruto from discovering it or they both could have played a role in Kyuubi's retreat back behind the seal.

I'm not sure if Yamato actually supresses Kyuubi's chakra or simply supresses Kyuubi from being able to influence Naruto.

[Karma]

Doh should have put does...

Yamato and the First both could supress it, but they also have serious limitations in terms of how long they can continue to do so as they both eventually would simply be overwhelmed and run out of chakra.

What I meant to say, (I got distracted for a moment) was that Yamato believes like Jiraiya and Minato that one day Naruto has the capacity to control Kyuubi's chakra. Of course this goes back to Sasuke entering Kyuubi and "Supressing" Kyuubi. It may very well be Naruto was responsible and Kyuubi was trying to keep Naruto from discovering it or they both could have played a role in Kyuubi's retreat back behind the seal.

I'm not sure if Yamato actually supresses Kyuubi's chakra or simply supresses Kyuubi from being able to influence Naruto.
agreed with what you had said too.

I think more & more.. that Naruto has the will to supresses the Kyuubi's chakra if he needed to. and he can also control it.

Because after Yamoto mention that if naruto can with stand such a poisonous chakra, is own chakra is powerful it self...

I think Naruto not believing in is self is the cause of him not controling the kyuubi's chakra.;)

[Franckie]

Ok. this part has suggest alot of things.
Shiki Fuujin is what Sarutobi used againts Orochimaru - Causing Minato to die as well.
Minato sealed the Dark chakra - to himself???
Shishou Fuuin was used to seal the Yang chakra to Naruto (sealing of a large animal or demon and the user wont die.)
Double sealed it - 4 symbols... thereby 8 Trigrams - Hakke Fuuin...

This is confusing. If the Yondaime Hogake used the Hakke seal to seal the Kyuubi's yang chakra into Naruto's own body, why does Naruto possess the seal for Shiki Fuujin as well?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/Shiki%20Fuujin/11.jpg

Does this mean that both seals work together to keep the Kyuubi trapped, yet the Kyuubi's spiritual half, its yin chakra, is contained with the Shiki Fuujin seal and bound to Naruto's soul while the Kyuubi's physical half, its yang chakra, is contained within the Hakke seal, and thus, Naruto?


1. there's an incomplete jutsu
2. naruto can completely control the kyuibi's chakra
3. the seal can be improved.
4. Jiraiya has been trying to reformed it.
5. Naruto is left to complete it if he doesnt make it alive.

1. Yes.
2. In theory, it is possible, and that may very well be the case of what occurs.
3. The Hakke seal can be manipulated, and the "key" can either loosen the seal or strengthen it depending upon the circumstances.
4. Yes.
5. Yes.

[jiro]

Ok. this part has suggest alot of things.
Shiki Fuujin is what Sarutobi used againts Orochimaru - Causing Minato to die as well.
Minato sealed the Dark chakra - to himself???
Shishou Fuuin was used to seal the Yang chakra to Naruto (sealing of a large animal or demon and the user wont die.)
Double sealed it - 4 symbols... thereby 8 Trigrams - Hakke Fuuin...

This is confusing. If the Yondaime Hogake used the Hakke seal to seal the Kyuubi's yang chakra into Naruto's own body, why does Naruto possess the seal for Shiki Fuujin as well?


ok let me clarify... ill try my best. Thanks for the screenshots.

As the result of a Fuuin jutsu(Sealing technique), a Fuuin-shiki (Sealing Formula) is carved into the human body, object, or a scroll. The "Shishou Fuuin" is one of those sealing technique. The other seals are those sealing of an object(jiraiya used on black fire thing, tenten's weapon sealed inside scrolls, bombs sealed in a scrolls). In naruto, he has the Fuuin-shiki carved inside his body.

Jiraiya:Minato only sealed the dark chakkra with the Shiki Fuujin (Dead Demon Seal)
Shiki Fujin requires your soul to be sacrified as a result for using the jutsu. The other sealing method does not - like sealing of an item, bomb, black fire, etc.
My theory is that - sealing of the chakra of the kyubii using the Shishou Fuuin (normal sealing method)will not cause Yondaime to die. But sealing the dark chakra with a Shiki Fujin caused him to sacrify his soul.

jiraiya explained he used double sealing of the chakra
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/Shiki%20Fuujin/11.jpg


Jiraiya:Minato only sealed the dark chakkra with the Shiki Fuujin (Dead Demon Seal)
Jiraiya:The sole REASON for the sealing the "Yang" Half into naruto was so that naruto could posses the Kyuubi's chakra.
Jiraiya:But why go through sealing the kyubii's chakra into his own son?

-- from spoiler img- Jiraiya - It is to protect this kid right? yondaime?

Now this part bothers me, suggesting he used 2 sealing method. 1st a Dead Demon Sealing and 2nd a normal sealing method...
a. did Yondaime sealed the dark half into himself?
b. the normal sealing into naruto?

theory:
Kyubi inside naruto doesnt have the Yin chakra, only a Yang chakra.
Double sealing was used to seal the demon and the yang chakra. yin is sealed inside Yondaime (duno why)
1. 4seals to seal the demon imprisoned inside naruto.
2. 4seals to seal the demon's chakra into naruto so he can used it. (this is what Jiraiya have been altering. Releasing the seals)

[Karma]

ok let me clarify... ill try my best. Thanks for the screenshots.

As the result of a Fuuin jutsu(Sealing technique), a Fuuin-shiki (Sealing Formula) is carved into the human body, object, or a scroll. The "Shishou Fuuin" is one of those sealing technique. The other seals are those sealing of an object(jiraiya used on black fire thing, tenten's weapon sealed inside scrolls, bombs sealed in a scrolls). In naruto, he has the Fuuin-shiki carved inside his body.

Jiraiya:Minato only sealed the dark chakkra with the Shiki Fuujin (Dead Demon Seal)
Shiki Fujin requires your soul to be sacrified as a result for using the jutsu. The other sealing method does not - like sealing of an item, bomb, black fire, etc.
My theory is that - sealing of the chakra of the kyubii using the Shishou Fuuin (normal sealing method)will not cause Yondaime to die. But sealing the dark chakra with a Shiki Fujin caused him to sacrify his soul.

jiraiya explained he used double sealing of the chakra
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/Shiki%20Fuujin/11.jpg


Jiraiya:Minato only sealed the dark chakkra with the Shiki Fuujin (Dead Demon Seal)
Jiraiya:The sole REASON for the sealing the "Yang" Half into naruto was so that naruto could posses the Kyuubi's chakra.
Jiraiya:But why go through sealing the kyubii's chakra into his own son?

-- from spoiler img- Jiraiya - It is to protect this kid right? yondaime?

Now this part bothers me, suggesting he used 2 sealing method. 1st a Dead Demon Sealing and 2nd a normal sealing method...
a. did Yondaime sealed the dark half into himself?
b. the normal sealing into naruto?

theory:
Kyubi inside naruto doesnt have the Yin chakra, only a Yang chakra.
Double sealing was used to seal the demon and the yang chakra. yin is sealed inside Yondaime (duno why)
1. 4seals to seal the demon imprisoned inside naruto.
2. 4seals to seal the demon's chakra into naruto so he can used it. (this is what Jiraiya have been altering. Releasing the seals) you got a point here.. i like this idea now..

[Franckie]

ok let me clarify... ill try my best. Thanks for the screenshots.

As the result of a Fuuin jutsu(Sealing technique), a Fuuin-shiki (Sealing Formula) is carved into the human body, object, or a scroll. The "Shishou Fuuin" is one of those sealing technique. The other seals are those sealing of an object(jiraiya used on black fire thing, tenten's weapon sealed inside scrolls, bombs sealed in a scrolls). In naruto, he has the Fuuin-shiki carved inside his body.

Jiraiya:Minato only sealed the dark chakkra with the Shiki Fuujin (Dead Demon Seal)
Shiki Fujin requires your soul to be sacrified as a result for using the jutsu. The other sealing method does not - like sealing of an item, bomb, black fire, etc.
My theory is that - sealing of the chakra of the kyubii using the Shishou Fuuin (normal sealing method)will not cause Yondaime to die. But sealing the dark chakra with a Shiki Fujin caused him to sacrify his soul.

jiraiya explained he used double sealing of the chakra
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/Shiki%20Fuujin/11.jpg


Jiraiya:Minato only sealed the dark chakkra with the Shiki Fuujin (Dead Demon Seal)
Jiraiya:The sole REASON for the sealing the "Yang" Half into naruto was so that naruto could posses the Kyuubi's chakra.
Jiraiya:But why go through sealing the kyubii's chakra into his own son?

-- from spoiler img- Jiraiya - It is to protect this kid right? yondaime?

Now this part bothers me, suggesting he used 2 sealing method. 1st a Dead Demon Sealing and 2nd a normal sealing method...
a. did Yondaime sealed the dark half into himself?
b. the normal sealing into naruto?

theory:
Kyubi inside naruto doesnt have the Yin chakra, only a Yang chakra.
Double sealing was used to seal the demon and the yang chakra. yin is sealed inside Yondaime (duno why)
1. 4seals to seal the demon imprisoned inside naruto.
2. 4seals to seal the demon's chakra into naruto so he can used it. (this is what Jiraiya have been altering. Releasing the seals)

Thanks for the clarification, yet it still bothers me. I do recall a statement in Shishou Fuujin's databook description that it is a technique which is used to seal a large enemy or a demon into an object. The Yondaime combined two of this jutsus together in order to create the Hakke seal.


Hakke no Fuuin-shiki (Sealing Method of the Eight Trigrams, 八卦の封印式)
Fuuin Jutsu; supplementary; close range (0-5m); no rank
Users: Yondaime Hokage, Sandaime Hokage*


The double seal that sealed the Kyuubi's immense chakra.

When the Yondaime Hokage sealed the Youko in Naruto, the effect was made stronger by putting together two "Shishou Fuuin". Also, at that time, he left an opening at the space where the sealing formulas meet, seeing to it that the Youko's chakra is able to merge with Naruto's chakra.

This Fuuin-shiki, because it consists of two "Shishou Fuuin," is called "Hakke no Fuuin-shiki"

The tremendous Youko's chakra is sealed inside the small body of Naruto!!

This was the jutsu which sealed the Kyuubi's yang chakra into Naruto's own body. Also, here is the databook translation for Shiki Fuujin:


Shiki Fuujin (Corpse Demon Consuming Seal, 屍鬼封尽)
Fuuin Jutsu; offensive; close range (0-5m); S-rank
Users: Yondaime Hokage*, Sandaime Hokage

"Giving up one's own life to the God of Death, one can seal the soul of one's sworn enemy forever!!"

This ultimate Fuuin jutsu can, by sacrificing one's own life, seal the target's soul for all eternity. Once, the Yondaime Hokage used this jutsu to seal the Kyuubi no Youko, loosing his own life. For those who've seen this shape, no jutsu exists to allow them to escape Hades~~

Dressed in white clothing, the grotesque Shinigami appears...!! Only when the shinobi has invoked the jutsu, can this figure be recognized.

On the arm of the Shinigami which holds the rosary surfaces a Juin. This arm penetrates the jutsusha's body, and pulls the target's soul out.

The soul of the person, possessed by the Shinigami, is eaten, and faces a Fate of eternal, continuous anguish.

Kyuubi is a bijuu, which means it's nothing more than a massive formation of sentient chakra. So, what happens when the Death God puts its arm into a bijuu? Considering how Shiki Fuujin deals with ripping out souls, it should logically remove what would be the demon fox's spiritual half, its yin chakra.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/Shiki%20Fuujin/P55555.jpg

The above pic was introduced all the way back into the Wave Arc, and the mark about "spiritual energy/physical energy" follows in line with the yin-yang symbol. I think it's safe to assume the following:

-Soul :: Spiritual Energy :: Yin chakra.
-Body :: Physical Energy :: Yang chakra.

Gaara did mention that the Shukaku was sealed inside his own body before his mother died giving birth to him, so it would make sense to me that a jinchuuriki has to have the bijuu sealed inside their own body. Shiki Fuujin only involves the spiritual half of the puzzle, which is why the Yondaime utilized a second seal, the Hakke seal, to seal what would be the Kyuubi's "physical half" into Naruto's own body so he could utilize that power since the Shiki Fuujin seal would permanently seal the other half away.

Another thing that bothers me is what the frog mentioned during that chapter:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/Shiki%20Fuujin/12.jpg

The frog mentioned Naruto transforming entirely into the demon fox if the seal were to weaken even further, and afterwards, we're told that two different seals with two different effects were utilized on two different portions of the demon. This conversation reminded me of what occured in regards to the fourth tail.

Just take a look at what chapter 295 is titled:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/v33_ch295_p01.jpg

"Becoming the Kyuubi" is what chapter 295 is titled, and I find it strange. Furthermore, let's consider the following statements:

-Jiraiya (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/291/10/): "It was as though he became a miniature Kyuubi demon fox."
-Orochimaru (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/293/07/): "My...This sensation...Quite different from what I've seen thus far."
-Kabuto (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/295/17/): "He's become even more like the Kyuubi than he was just a few minutes ago, I see".
-Yamato: Look here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/295/03/) and here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/295/04/). Yamato makes a slight emphasis on how the chakra feels and notes that something peculiar is going on with Naruto.

Naruto is literally becoming the Kyuubi the more tails he accesses. The fourth tail is significantly different from Naruto's previous forms. Why?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/kyubi%20and%20%20naruto/v33_page_067_UK_ch293.jpg

Naruto crosses the seal and enters the Kyuubi's clutches where a big boost in power is given, and the Kyuubi comes one step further to fully reincarnating itself once again into the world via Naruto's body. What I find even more perplexing is what Jiraiya mentions how the seal is weakening, yet he has no clear idea as to why (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/291/10/). Obviously now, Jiraiya concluded that poking the "key" into the Hakke seal is not responsible for the seal weakening, so what other plausible scenario exists?

We know that whatever wraps around Naruto (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/95/16/) leaks out of the seal and is channeled by Naruto. If the Yondaime did in fact seal the yin chakra into Naruto as well, him crossing over into the seal and into the Kyuubi's clutches would cause the yin chakra to be "yanked out" in addition to the yang chakra. If this truly is the case, then it would explain why the seal is weakening since Naruto is inadvertently causing the seal to leak out yin chakra and why the fourth tail is so vastly different from Naruto's previous transformations because the yin and yang is beginning to combine together with Naruto as a medium, which in turn forms a "mini-Kyuubi".

In regards to your theory at the end, you talk about "dunno why" as to why the Yondaime sealed the yin chakra into himself. What chapter 370 highlights though is in fact that the Yondaime did in fact know something that hasn't been explicitly made clear yet. He entrusted the Kyuubi to his own son for a reason which even baffles Jiraiya, and there is the possibility that he foresaw the possibilty of someone attempting to extract the demon fox from his own son since he foresaw the possibilty of the seal weakening since he left behind a "key" for what he sealed into Naruto's own body, the yang chakra. If the Yondaime did in fact seal both the yin and the yang into Naruto, perhaps it makes a failsafe of some kind?

Sorry...random thoughts here...

[jiro]

thank you! I forgot to mention about naruto becomming a demon fox.

yea it bothers me the way they refer to naruto as demon fox.
Mention a lot in manga, thank you for finding the others.

here's chapter 1.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9818/demonqf2.jpg

[Decorus]

Thats what people believe will inevitably happen is Naruto's seal will break and he will become Kyuubi. So in thier own fear they limited his training and tried thier hardest to prevent him from becoming a ninja. Yamato is being used to babysit Naruto in the hopes he can prevent Naruto from further weakening the seal and becoming Kyuubi.

People tend to see the Monster and not the Person when a Bijou is sealed inside someone.

[Gigai]

Basically this thread is to discuss theories regarding the yin & yang chakras, but more specificall/the main goal is focusing on where the Yin chakra might be...

Backing up a second...in Chapter 370 page 13 Jiraiya was talking about how nine-tails was divided into 2 parts with naruto having the "yang chakra"...but is naruto only has 1/2 the nine-tails, then where is the rest of it? (& lol if the akatsuki ever did capture naruto imagine their reactions when they find they only have 1/2 of it--not that I think they'll happen but sill....)

Anyway, Yin and yang refer to a main branch of Chinese philosohpy where 2 opposing, but complementary cosmic forces that balance another out with yang as the light (& day), dominant, upward-seeking, and male force where as the yin is referd to as the dark (& night), passive, downward-seeking, and female force (at least that's my understanding of it my source is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang)

Yang is also represented as fire & air* while Yin is represented as water & earth...

(*the air is a strong connection to Naruto's air elemental chakra, but the fire part makes me wonder--will naruto develop fire tendencies or is this irrelevant?)

This suggests to me, that the remaining chakra, the yin, can be one of several places:

1)there is a good chance that if naruto has a sibling, that sibling might have the other 1/2 (with the reason nobody mentions they have it being that the yin 1/2 is passive and not nearly as noticeable as naruto's yang 1/2)--& if Sakura is naruto's sibling (more more on this go to this thread: http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=606457#post606457), then she might have it...:sakura
2)Naruto's mother, Kushina, has the yin (if Yondaime :yondaime1would put the yang in his son, why not his wife--though I guess what makes this unlikely is that I think part of the reason naruto was choosen was b/c be was a baby or something...)--this would explain whay she is MIA & she also was from the whirlpool country (chapter 367 p11) so her element would be water (probly) like the yin...
3)some other person has the yin/other
4)the yin is unsealed & wandering or doing whatever it is the nine-tails does when not sealed (though maybe in this case searching for yang):kyuubi

Any opinions?:smile-big

Edited thread title for clarity.

[Absolutio]

I think that the yin chakra was sealed in the death god's belly, together with Yondaime.

[Alterno]

The Yin Chakra was sealed inside of the god of death with "Shiki Fuujin", The Yang chakra is sealed inside of Naruto as same chapter says in this page:

http://img42.imagevenue.com/loc662/th_32030_Shiki_123_662lo.jpg (http://img42.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=32030_Shiki_123_662lo.jpg)

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2106/718/1600/fuuinj3.jpg

[Raimaru]

I still believe both Yin and Yang of Kyuubi is sealed inside Naruto.
Only Yang half is accessable by Naruto, since both Yang and Yin would be too much for him. Yin is still there, inside Naruto, but sealed away from Naruto himself, so he even can't touch it accidentially, like he did with Yang. Neighter by his emotions nor by his will does he have a chance to use it.

Naturally this makes sense, cause just opening that seal a slight bit causes Naruto to go 4-tailed immediately. Just imagine Naruto going 4-tailed during the Zabuza saga. ;)

The frog just said it itself. Jiraiya made an experiment by unsealing a piece of Yin for a short time. He acutally did that. There is no way it is somewhere else than inside Naruto himself. If Yin was inside Death god, Jiraiya wouldn't have a way to break that seal since he has no access to the Death god without sacrificing himself.

[Alterno]

I still believe both Yin and Yang of Kyuubi is sealed inside Naruto.
Only Yang half is accessable by Naruto, since both Yang and Yin would be too much for him. Yin is still there, inside Naruto, but sealed away from Naruto himself, so he even can't touch it accidentially, like he did with Yang. Neighter by his emotions nor by his will does he have a chance to use it.

Naturally this makes sense, cause just opening that seal a slight bit causes Naruto to go 4-tailed immediately. Just imagine Naruto going 4-tailed during the Zabuza saga. ;)

The frog just said it itself. Jiraiya made an experiment by unsealing a piece of Yin for a short time. He acutally did that. There is no way it is somewhere else than inside Naruto himself. If Yin was inside Death god, Jiraiya wouldn't have a way to break that seal since he has no access to the Death god without sacrificing himself.

The frog never said that Jiraiya did an experiement unsealing yin chakra, he said that Kyuubi's chakra.
Actually he needed to release Kyuubi's chakra to complete that "jutsu" and that's why he unsealed a small crack of Kyuubi's chakra.:amuse

[lordHokage]

I think the Yin Chakra was sealed in Minato but it is possible the Yin Chakra was sealed in Kushina too. As for Sakura I don’t think so, she is 7 months older than Naruto. There is no mention of Kyuubi’s attacking the Hidden Leaf Village prior to Naruto’s birth. I voted for someone else. :blink

Gigai, I like your discussion. :)

[ShadowStrike]

It's a good question. I think Kyuubi's Yin should be in one of the three below:

1. Minato (gone)
2. Madara (Tobi)
3. Kushina (Naruto's mom)

I think Kushina as the container will bring the story to the next level.

[bax]

Hmm.... I would say, they are both sealed inside Naruto. On to my reasonings:

As far as I know, relatively the theory about Yin and Yang, both them coexist. Which means, in my inference, they can't be separated. In Naruto's case, probably both of them exist in Naruto, it's just Naruto doesn't have access to the Yin. It's possible in my view. Orochimaru once used the Five Element seal to block Naruto's chakra, so perhaps with a seal of the level of the Shiki Fuin, it's possible to completely block one part of the chakra.

The weakening of the seal could be a sign that the seal that blocked the Yin chakra is leaking, which explains why the Kyuubi sometimes took over Naruto.

And to the part where why Naruto can remain conscious at a certain level of leakness of the Yin chakra, Yamato said that Naruto's strength is his own chakra. Perhaps exposure to the Yin chakra unconsciously strengthen his own chakra, much like how a bacteria develops immunity to vaccine due to exposure over time.

[kaylee]

This is still a really tricky point, but I think there are only 2 possibilities here -- either Yin half of the Kyuubi's chakra is locked away somewhere in Naruto, or it was sealed within the death god. Iwanin's translation from 370 has :



Jiraiya: It was only the Kyuubi's Yin chakra Minato sealed through Shikifuujin. The reason he took the trouble to split the Kyuubi's power into Yin and Yang... And seal the Yang side in Naruto, was because he wanted him to have it.


Now the part that's most interesting to me in this, is that Jiraiya specifically says "seal the Yang side in Naruto." This leads me to believe that only the yang half is in Naruto, which means the Yin must be somewhere else -- most likely in the death god. Now, I agree with bax that it's strange that the yin and yang halves were able to be split at all -- maybe we'll get more hints when we learn more about the nature of yin and yang.

The other half of that quote is interesting too, actually. It says the Yin half was sealed through Shikifuujin, but doesn't specifically say that it was sealed in the death god. When Sandaime used this technique, he sealed Orochimaru's arms in the death god, along with his own soul. But we don't know enough about this justsu yet. It could be that Minato used it in a slightly different way, and sealed only his own soul in the death god, and the Yin half is somewhere else entirely.

But then again, if this is the case, wouldn't both halves have been sealed through Shikifuujin, but both sealed in different places? The wording just brings me back to my original conclusion -- the yang half is in Naruto, the yin half is in the death god.

[Gigai]

The question then is if the yin 1/2 was sealed with the Shikifuujin somewhere & if it was sealed to the death god (though how I wonder--I mean, I can see Yondaime & humans, etc.. being sealed but the kyuubi, even 1/2 is massive, though I still think it could poss happen somehow cause it is death we are talking about, but I'm not sure exactly of effect due to the kyuubi's strength & Kyuubi might have some sort of immunity against death—well, the god of death, just b/c according to the legends of the tailed beasts: http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=57918, Kyuubi beat Nekomata [Nibi], who possesses the power of death & whose master was death god [though I’m not sure if it’s the same one or if I’m even stretching things here?], where I would think its master would try to at least get revenge?), what nature of being is the death god? (Like if the Yin was in the death god’s stomach, is the Yin 1/2 dead, or just immobilized until either it or the death god is summoned--though if the latter then the yin 1/2 would be freed b/c Sandaime summoned the death god against Oro--which to me suggests that if the death gos is summoned Yin is not released b/c otherwise 1/2 Kyuubi would appear poss. & Sandaime would be more cautios/be aware of it?...or something else?)...

Also, I think it is poss. that Kushina might be involved, though most of my reasoning behind this is why isn't she raising/with Naruto--just b/c there has to be a big reason (if she was dead, we should have heard something about it--there wouldn't be that great a reason to keep us & naruto [just b/c otherwise he would have mentioned her in his flashbacks to his childhood alone...] in the dark if she was dead unless her death is significantly meaningful & thus everyone must be in the dark...)--I'm not sure how Kushine would be involved (maybe watching over whatever has the Yin, like a box or a long lost sibling or something related to death god or an object) or have a secret she is withholding or have a significant death? (of course, here I am getting dangerously close to a tanget towards the where is Kushina thread: http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18837, but the point is I think she could poss. have something to do with knowledge about the Yin, given that the last place we know for 100% or so we know where she was, was giving birth to naruto at Leaf, where soon afterwards kyuubi came & then we know nothing--though I must admit, I might be pushing it...?)

Whatever the case (& right now I'm still speculating w/out any opinion on where I think Yin is yet...), I think that the Shikifuujin is important (where is sort of an obvious as it is the key) perhaps even beyond being a key (for all we know, the Yin 1/2 could even be inside it...)--like is the jutsu naruto was eventually suposed to learn just relating to sealing or unsealing, or could it even be summoning the Yin 1/2...

I still think though that the fact Yin refers to earth & water is important (esp. as yang= fire & air when air=naruto) like a clue poss. ...eventually I think that maybe/it is possible somewhere in the manga there might be a race btwn akatsuki, leaf, & poss. Sasuke's hebi [if itachi has not been defeated by then]…

[kaylee]

what nature of being is the death god? (Like if the Yin was in the death god’s stomach, is the Yin 1/2 dead, or just immobilized until either it or the death god is summoned--though if the latter then the yin 1/2 would be freed b/c Sandaime summoned the death god against Oro--which to me suggests that if the death gos is summoned Yin is not released b/c otherwise 1/2 Kyuubi would appear poss. & Sandaime would be more cautios/be aware of it?...or something else?)...


Well, our best explanation of the death god comes from Sandaime in Chapter 124, page 5 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/124/05/). He says "the one whose soul is sealed will suffer for eternity in the belly of death, never gaining release... the one who is sealed and the one who performs the seal... Their souls will mingle, hating each other, and battling the other for all eternity."

So, I think right now, Yondaime and the Yin half of Kyuubi are both sealed in the death god. It's never said anywhere that only one thing can be sealed in the death god at a time though. So when Sandaime summoned the death god against Orochimaru, it doesn't mean that the Yin half was released...

[Franckie]

Not everything the Death God seals is doomed to dwell within its stomach. Naruto possessing the spiral pattern is solid proof that the Death God stuck something into Naruto.


Shiki Fuujin (Corpse Demon Consuming Seal, 屍鬼封尽)
Fuuin Jutsu; offensive; close range (0-5m); S-rank
Users: Yondaime Hokage*, Sandaime Hokage

"Giving up one's own life to the God of Death, one can seal the soul of one's sworn enemy forever!!"

This ultimate Fuuin jutsu can, by sacrificing one's own life, seal the target's soul for all eternity. Once, the Yondaime Hokage used this jutsu to seal the Kyuubi no Youko, loosing his own life. For those who've seen this shape, no jutsu exists to allow them to escape Hades~~

Dressed in white clothing, the grotesque Shinigami appears...!! Only when the shinobi has invoked the jutsu, can this figure be recognized.

On the arm of the Shinigami which holds the rosary surfaces a Juin. This arm penetrates the jutsusha's body, and pulls the target's soul out.

The soul of the person, possessed by the Shinigami, is eaten, and faces a Fate of eternal, continuous anguish.

Shiki Fuujin is the ultimate sacrificial jutsu, hence why it is the strongest fuujin jutsu. Anything that this jutsu seals is sealed away for good. We know what happens when a caster has the target(s) sealed into yourself. What happens though if you use someone else though as the recipient of the seal? Dunno, but I do believe that the jutsu would still contain and keep the target(s) separate from the receiver.

Minato did not use one seal though on the Kyuubi that night. Minato also used Shishou Fuujin on the Kyuubi, and according to its databook profile, it's a jutsu which is used to seal large enemies or demons into objects, including people. Minato used two of these seals in order to form Hakke no Fuujin-Shiki.


Hakke no Fuuin-shiki (Sealing Method of the Eight Trigrams, 八卦の封印式)
Fuuin Jutsu; supplementary; close range (0-5m); no rank
Users: Yondaime Hokage, Sandaime Hokage*


The double seal that sealed the Kyuubi's immense chakra.

When the Yondaime Hokage sealed the Youko in Naruto, the effect was made stronger by putting together two "Shishou Fuuin". Also, at that time, he left an opening at the space where the sealing formulas meet, seeing to it that the Youko's chakra is able to merge with Naruto's chakra.

This Fuuin-shiki, because it consists of two "Shishou Fuuin," is called "Hakke no Fuuin-shiki"

The tremendous Youko's chakra is sealed inside the small body of Naruto!!

During the conversation Jiraiya had with the frog containing the key, the frog brought up the possibility that Naruto would transform into the demon completely if the seal were loosen even further, and the "key" the frog possesses only matches Naruto's Hakke seal. Afterwards, Jiraiya tells the frog that such a thing should not be theoretically possible. After all, how can Naruto transform into the Kyuubi-no-Youko if two seals with two different effects were utilized on two different portions of the demon?

We know for a fact that the seal pumps Kyuubi chakra into Naruto's own body whether he wants it or not. It's designed to act as a pump. Considering that only the Kyuubi's yang chakra would have been sealed into Naruto's own body, this would have been what Minato used Hakke no Fuujin-Shiki on. So, why the Shiki Fuujin seal?

Naruto being in possession of both the yin and the yang makes perfect sense if we tie details of the sealing with what we know about the fourth tail. If we look back at the matter with the fourth tail, Naruto is instigating what people fear the most, which is Naruto transforming into the demon completely.

Just take a look at what chapter 295 is titled:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/v33_ch295_p01.jpg

"Becoming the Kyuubi" is what chapter 295 is titled, and I find it strange. Furthermore, let's consider the following statements:

-Jiraiya (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/291/10/): "It was as though he became a miniature Kyuubi demon fox."
-Orochimaru (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/293/07/): "My...This sensation...Quite different from what I've seen thus far."
-Kabuto (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/295/17/): "He's become even more like the Kyuubi than he was just a few minutes ago, I see".
-Yamato: Look here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/295/03/) and here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/295/04/). Yamato makes a slight emphasis on how the chakra feels and notes that something peculiar is going on with Naruto.

Naruto is literally becoming the Kyuubi the more tails he accesses. The fourth tail is significantly different from Naruto's previous forms. Why?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/kyubi%20and%20%20naruto/v33_page_067_UK_ch293.jpg

Naruto crosses the seal and enters the Kyuubi's clutches where a big boost in power is given, and the Kyuubi comes one step further to fully reincarnating itself once again into the world via Naruto's body. Both the frog (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/10/) and Jiraiya have mentioned the seal weakening; furthermore, what I find even more perplexing is Jiraiya mentioning he has no idea why the seal is even weakening to begin with (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/291/10/). Obviously, Jiraiya concluded that poking the "key" into the Hakke seal is not responsible for the seal weakening, so what other plausible scenario exists?

We know that whatever wraps around Naruto (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/95/16/) leaks out of the seal and is channeled by Naruto. If the Yondaime did in fact seal the yin chakra into Naruto (I don't think Shiki Fuujin seals things into peoples' bodies considering it deals with ripping out seals and tying them together to the recipient's soul) as well, him crossing over into the seal and into the Kyuubi's clutches would cause the yin chakra to be "yanked out" in addition to the yang chakra. If this truly is the case, then it would explain why the seal is weakening since Naruto is inadvertently causing the seal to do something it was never suppose to do--pump out yin chakra in addition to the yang chakra--and why the fourth tail is so vastly different from Naruto's previous transformations because the yin and yang is beginning to recombine together with Naruto as a medium, hence the "mini-Kyuubi" business.

[kaylee]

@Franckie -- NICE finds on those databook articles explaining Naruto's seal and the Shiki Fuujin! Actually, your argument makes a helluva lot of sense, and I think you just convinced me that the Yin half is sealed in Naruto, especially with the last part of your argument about Naruto starting to transform into the kyuubi now because the yin and yang are starting to mix again.

And I have to admit, it makes for a much more interesting story this way than if the Yin half was sealed in the death god, never to return.

Anyway, thanks for that post and all the research you put into it. It was a fun read. :D



Jiraiya: It was only the Kyuubi's Yin chakra Minato sealed through Shikifuujin. The reason he took the trouble to split the Kyuubi's power into Yin and Yang... And seal the Yang side in Naruto, was because he wanted him to have it.


With this new information, I think it's possible to interpret the above as the following :

- Minato sealed the Yin chakra through Shikifuujin inside Naruto, but sealed away from Naruto so that he can't access it.

- Minato also sealed the Yang chakra inside Naruto, but used 2 Shishou Fuujin seals (combined to make the Hakke no Fuujin-Shiki), which allows the Yang chakra to slip through and intermingle with Naruto's own chakra, so that he can access it.

And it gives new meaning to the gate too, as the gate most likely symbolizes the Hakke no Fuujin-Shiki seal (Yang chakra can slip though). When Naruto crosses this gate when he goes 4-tails, he's accessing the sealed Yin chakra, which he shouldn't be able to access.

Ahhh, it all makes sense now! :D

[ornis]

The deduction is very sensible. I find it interesting, to boot. Additionally I'd find it interesting if anyone has an idea how the Yin and Yang can be in both Naruto and the Death God? How could Minato's use of Hakke no Shiki Fuujin leave the Yin in the Death God but also supersede the Death God's eternal possession of that chakra?

Yes, I want to explore how it would be likely for Yondaime to truly be so incredibly adroit in using space/time manipulating seals that he actually created a key to the Death God, instead of having only Naruto holding (or touching) all of Kyuubi.

[hr]Forget that. It's possible, but now, I'm seeing that the "sealing parts" that Hakke no Shiki and Shiki Fuujin participate in create an associative occupancy in space and time. These seals are simply used to refer the Kyuubi to Shinigami's essence and Naruto's essence as borders (to be appropriate, they're limits) that suspend Kyuubi between them. I'll attempt to explain the theory later.

[Black/Light]

I agree with Franckie and kaylee.

Makes the most sense to me.

[fremeer]

i thought kyuubi was completely sealed inside naruto but only the good chakra was allowed to seap out while the other chakra was completely sealed.

[Decorus]

Thats essentially the working theory how ever its Yang and not good there is a difference.

[MegaX]

Thats essentially the working theory how ever its Yang and not good there is a difference.

Well, technically. But doesn't it amount to about the same?

[Philybull123]

Come to think of it I think the Kyuubi still has its "yin" chakra, Because when Minato sealed the Kyuubi into naruto he Made sure he split the Kyuubi chakra into 2 parts(Yin and Yang). Now if Madara Supposedly stole the Yin chakra from the Kyuubi then minato would have no reason to split the foxes chakra into 2 parts. This makes me believe that the Kyuubi would have no intention on finding his other half of chakra if had it all along. It is quite possible that madara tried to wipe everyone and everything in konoha to prevent someone in the uchiha clan or even anyone in Konoha to have any ambitions of trying to Release his Demon Father. My theory is Madara probably knew Eventually someone would eventually try to unseal his Father and the only way he could completely prevent that was by destroying konoha. The only thing that hearts my theroy is that Madara made the seal require 3 Mangekeyo Sharingan users and the Kyuubi's chakra for this same reason. It being hard enough to obtain the Mangekeyo Sharingan, but obtaining the kyuubi chakra is just out of the question. Any1 else other than Madara obtaining the kyuubi's chakra would be impossible, i dont think anyone in Akatsuki would be capable to capturing it either. Thats why i think who ever summoned the kyuubi picked Konoha the place to summon it "on purpose" . I think who ever summoned it wanted the Kyuubi to be sealed into a jinchuuriki "on purpose" so it would be easier to abstract the kyuubi's chakra (exactly what Akatsuki is trying to do). And the only way a person could possibly plan this is if he knew of some1 capable enough of sealing the kyuubi(the Stongest and most intelligent of all demons) in a jinchuuriki and their are only 2 people possible of doing so the 3rd Hokage and Minato(they are the only 1's that can perform the "Demon Death Seal").I think this is what the 4th knew of grave importance thats why he entrusted the kyuubi to naruto(his son). BTW the only person possible of knowing Minato to have a jutsu capable of sealing the kyuubi had to be some1 dear to him (*HINT* Obito AKA Tobi from Akatsuki).The 4th was Obito's Sensei. Obito AKA Tobi, is the only known suspect right now of some1 capable of summoning the kyuubi other than Madara himself. Thats why i think Obito aka Tobi somehow possesses Madara's chakra or Madara somehow possessed Obito's aka tobi's body sometime after he was crushed by the giant bolder. Im quite sure Tobi is stronger than any1 in Akatsuki. Given he is the Founder/Leader of Akatsuki and he is also an Uchiha, making him the best known Candidate.

[Decorus]

Yin is the opposite of Yang. Yin = Sickness Yang = Health Yin = Dark Yang = Light.
Think of every positive in existence and that is what Yang is while every negative in existence is what Yin is. So yes there is a difference.

Now to crush someones theory.
(Don't take this personally I don't like theories based on stuff already proven to be false)

1. Tobi = Uchiha Madara, yes he is the Clan founder and yes he's still alive.
2. Pein is the leader and Founder of the Akatsuki, Madara has absolutely nothing to do with it other then he hired them to gather up all the Bijou.
3. Kyuubi is pretty much impossible to seal up in a single person using any known jutsu and I'm fairly certain Madara is fairly pissed that Yondaime figured out an effective sealing method that is temporarily containing Kyuubi. (The seals he used are unraveling and have been since the start of the manga)
4. Pein is planning on getting all the Bijou and using them to create some kind of doomsday Jutsu.
5. Madara wants them all together so he can regain some sharingan power he lost.
(Thats a maybe its pretty unclear what Madara plans to do.)

6. Its very importent that people understand Yondaime managed to split Kyuubi's chakra into its Yin and Yang components and used to different sealing methods to seal the chakra. I'm guessing because:
A. Kyuubi's chakra in its normal state would be impossible to contain in any vessel.
B. Kyuubi in a nonweakened state would probably overwhelm any person its sealed into in a matter of seconds destroying the seal consuming the person and proceeding to go on a rampage that would make what it did before look tame in comparison.

[MegaX]

I never said there wasn't a difference. But it still amounts to about the same by that definition. After all Good is supposed to be the essence of positive and vice versa for Evil.

[Decorus]

Good and Evil are merely moral concepts created by people completely based on the perception of the person involved. Yin and Yang are opposing forces that exist in a state of balance complementing and contrasting each other in an eternal cycle. No where near the same thing.

Good cannot become Evil. Life does eventually turn into Death and then Life again. So Someone using Good and Evil to describe Yin and Yang would be wrong.

From what you are stating:

Love = Good
Hate = Evil

So say a Pedophile is good because he loves children.
I'm evil because I hate children.

Love is obviously the Positive
Hate is obviously the Negative

Do you need further proof disputing your case?

[MegaX]

Well I disagree that Good and Evil are relative, so there's an impasse there. So it's best not to argue over semantics.

[taimoor2]

Yin is the opposite of Yang. Yin = Sickness Yang = Health Yin = Dark Yang = Light.
Think of every positive in existence and that is what Yang is while every negative in existence is what Yin is. So yes there is a difference.

Yin=female, Yang=male

You do realize what your assertion leads to?:D :D

[AngryChubbs]

isn't it sealed within the death god.
the key that naruto will obtain may be the key to free that chakra which is sealed within the deathgod.

thats my theory anyway

[Decorus]

The fact that everyone has feminine and Masculine characteristics?

Actually its a fact that Good and Evil are a matter of perspective.

Thou shalt not kill, well except when I order you to slaughter the soldiers of a city in my name or sacrifice your son to prove your faith in me. Or how bout murdering every first born in Egypt just to prove a point? Or letting someone completely destroy another man's life just to win a bet.

All evil actions done in the name of good....

Even better committing suicide to save all of mankind.

What can be considered the ultimate example of good is also a mortal sin by the laws of the catholic church. Lets not even get me started on how Saint Hood is the equivalent of creating false idols in the name of god.

Would you like more examples?
Thats just a short list from a single religon.

I can go on and on and on.....

The cold hard truth is quite often far more sinister then a sweet sounding lie.

I apologize if I offend your delicate sensibilities with what could be taken as a direct insult to the Christian faith, I'm merely pointing out the reality of Good and Evil are neither absolute nor are they the same for every person on the planet. They really are simply a matter of perspective.

Simply put one man's murderer is another man's hero.

[MegaX]

The only problem is that whether or not Good and Evil are merely matters of perspective depends entirely upon where morality is derived. As a Christian I believe that morality is derived from an infallible higher power, which I am well aware is a view not shared by all. If morality is taken from said power, Good is Good, Evil is Evil, and whether one man's murderer is another's hero it does not change that fact that he's a murderer.

Do you see what I'm getting at? It all comes down to the core issue of a higher power, which is something irrelevant to our discussion in this topic and one which I will not entertain so as to preserve this topic's purpose.

[kaylee]

For reference, the definitions of Yin and Yang from wikipedia :



The dual concepts of yin and yang which describe two primal opposing but complementary principles or cosmic forces said to be found in all non-static objects and processes in the universe. This seemingly paradoxical concept is the cornerstone of most branches of Chinese philosophy, as well as traditional Chinese medicine.

Yīn (陰 or 阴 "shady place, north slope, south bank (river); cloudy, overcast"; Japanese: in or on; Korean: 음, Vietnamese: âm) is the dark element: it is passive, dark, feminine, negative, downward-seeking, consuming and corresponds to the night.

Yáng (陽 or 阳 "sunny place, south slope, north bank (river), sunshine"; Japanese: yō; Korean: 양, Vietnamese: dương) is the bright element: it is active, light, masculine, positive, upward-seeking, producing and corresponds to the daytime.

Yin is often symbolized by water and earth, while yang is symbolized by fire and air.


I think the problem with trying to translate Yin and Yang directly to english is that there's not just one word or concept to describe them, so I just leave them as "yin" and "yang". :amuse

That said, I still think that both halves are sealed inside Naruto, but that Minato sealed the "yin" half away so that it's inaccessible to Naruto. Hopefully we'll get the answer to this soon though, when Naruto receives Jiraiya's key.

[Arkaros]

Totally random thought - maybe the 1st's necklace current contains the yin chakra. Only the yang chakra is behind the gate inside naruto, and he has full access to all of this chakra, which he usually draws out as his "rent." The yin chakra is then kept in the necklace, and the 4th's seal (the one that's breaking down) acts as a gate to let the chakra into his body for his access. Maybe the system's set up such that he has unlimited access to the yang chakra, which he can use without going into tailed states, but he isn't supposed to be able to touch the yin chakra without the key. However, when he draws out a lot at once, or his emotions take over, the seal weakens and the yin chakra can pass into his body; this is when he starts to form tails. The seal has also been continuously weakening, which is why he had random KB-tails while FRS training even if he was level-headed.
This would also help explain why the fact that naruto wears the necklace helps yamato suppress the kyuubi chakra - because the necklace is physically right there, he can direct suppress it with mokuton (note that when using kage bunshins, each one replicates the necklace, so it's possible that a single KB could start drawing chakra from the necklace and then yamato could isolate that KB and shut it down). In addition, the first time naruto got tails was at the valley of the end, after he got the necklace.
I'm actually don't really consider this theory to be very valid, mostly because there's not enough information and also because when Jiraiya used the key, naruto went straight to 4 tails, not 8 or some other number greater than four. anyways, lemme know what you think

[AngryChubbs]

i think it might be sealed within naruto and thats what the key is for. why isn't naruto on the list? lol

[Gigai]

Also, Naruto went into semi-kyuubiform batttling Haku and that was way before he ever met Tsunade & got the necklace...but the question of the necklace I think is still a significant part to the kyuubi mystery...

[Saruto]

I believe that Kishi will somehow see to it that Naruto gain all of that power.

[DMNKLOL]

I was assumed that the Yin Chakra is in the belly of the Death God.
Infact, since this tidbit of info that Naruto has the Yang Chakra sealed, it cleared alot of things up.
Since the basis of the Death-God Sealing requires 2.

Unless it turned out that Kushina had twins so he sealed the Yin into the other kid.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHAHAAHAAAHHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHA!

[ascalon]

Help me understand the concept of the nine tails's sealing, as it relates to around chapter 370.

Jiraiya said the Nine tails's chakra was split into two and sealed into two places right? The yang is in Naruto, and the Yin is in the key Jiraiya had? So shouldn't that mean only half of its power is in Naruto? Then the key is also a tool for controling the seal on Naruto and the yang chakra?

Also, what is the jutsu Jiraiya said Naruto was meant to complete?

[MegaX]

Help me understand the concept of the nine tails's sealing, as it relates to around chapter 370.

Jiraiya said the Nine tails's chakra was split into two and sealed into two places right? The yang is in Naruto, and the Yin is in the key Jiraiya had? So shouldn't that mean only half of its power is in Naruto? Then the key is also a tool for controling the seal on Naruto and the yang chakra?

Also, what is the jutsu Jiraiya said Naruto was meant to complete?

It's still unclear as to what actually happened. Theories range from Minato sealing half in Naruto and half somewhere else to Minato sealing the entirety of Kyuubi in Naruto, but locking half of it out of his access.

I agree with the second one, and it also explains why there's such a massive shift in power between the 3 and 4 tail transformations as the Yin starts to leak into the Yang, but it depends on who you talk to.

[enmymiguel]

i dont undertand cause after somebody finish the sealing jutsu they die and with all see that in the battle btw oro and the 3th hokage.

but the story say that minato seal the 9tail in to naruto and only seal the yin. but how the hell he do that cause when he seal the 9tail he die in 2 second cause the side effect of the god death jutsu. and plus when they do the god death jutsu the spirit go inside of the person that make the jutsu.

man kishi have to explain this, cause is hard to undertand and very hard to belive after with know how the god death jutsu work.

[Alexis]

My guess is that the other half is inside Minato. The condition to using that jutsu, besides death, was to battle the soul of the one you seal for all eternity in the death realm. So you'd think Minato had to bring part of that soul with him, right? If not, then maybe it is in that key. I guess it depends on if the story requires the Kyuubi to have it's whole chakra or not.

But I think it will be explained soon, when Naruto gets that key.

[kkck]

I think that the shiki fuujin makes one part of the chakra inacccesible to naruto while allowing the other of the chakra to mix with naruto's chakra. I don't think minato could have split the chakra into two parts, because that would mean there is a yan chakra fox and a yin chakra fox, and having two demon fox is way too much.

[Alexis]

I think that the shiki fuujin makes one part of the chakra inacccesible to naruto while allowing the other of the chakra to mix with naruto's chakra. I don't think minato could have split the chakra into two parts, because that would mean there is a yan chakra fox and a yin chakra fox, and having two demon fox is way too much.
Well that Demon fox would then be gone. In the death realm fighting Minato forever.

[kkck]

here is a wikia for minato, which supports my theory.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Fourth_Hokage#Legacy

[khar2]

man if naruto is speaking with good kyubi (man that is good) i cant imagine bad...
i think sealing kyubi has to do something with madara being a spiritual being one eye and all that.... here is my theory i think that madara summons kyubi and for a short time he is one with the monster while having ems but when minato closed kyubi he couldnt sealed it completely so he sealed good side of kyubi and with it he sealed part of madara ( this also would explain why we know about madara and still didnt saw his face and also why madara lost to shodi, he simply unknowingly used wrong tactic against wrong man and he end up being suppressed and thus defeated, and also explains his immortality by being a part kyubi)

[Jammin]

I thought the manga was pretty clear on this back in chapter 370. Minato only completely sealed the Yin or more evil half of the kyuubi chakra. For the purpose of giving Naruto the ability to use the Yang or less evil half of the kyuubi chakra. Why and how the 4th did this is still a complete mystery.

[lagif]

I believe Minato didn't do the same as Third because Nine-Tailed is a demon after all, and, maybe, one demon can't be consumed by another. So, he placed Kyuubi into Naruto, giving him access only to yang chakra. Maybe if he didn't do so, it woud be easier for Kyuubi to show himself.