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Hermie
November 16, 2007, 03:41 PM
Oh wow, not only is it MH's birthday, today is also the release of Bleach, chapter 300! [This! Is! SOUL SOCIETY! (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=612930)]


Now, how will this excellent series continue? Discuss, dear community. ^_^

TheChosenOne
November 16, 2007, 04:02 PM
Now that Zomari has released, I think Byakuya will release shikai followed by bankai. I hope next chapter some headway is given about Kentoira I cant wait to see Kenpachi show us his power.:)

arwes
November 16, 2007, 06:28 PM
I'm wondering if Hanataro is going to use his zanpakuto on Rukia (and Byakuya too I guess if/when he gets injured) and then release it on Zomari.

EvolutionIX
November 16, 2007, 07:09 PM
I just hope for one thing from all the characters that come to aid ichigo and co. that they all have learnt a new ability so each manga viewer can have some eye candy :D

TheChosenOne
November 16, 2007, 07:22 PM
I think Hanataro will use his zanpak, we can finally see what it's power is. The anime labled it's power to heal any wound it touches, the manga could follow or change it.:)

I think Byakuya will be releasing bankai since he needs to cover a lot of ground. I think he will try to cut of all the eyes of Zomari's release. :)

AngryChubbs
November 16, 2007, 07:33 PM
im very dissapointed in this chapter. and it was the 300th chapter! o well, im hoping for something amazing next week.
prediction...
byakua isnt worried and reveals his shikai and tells him that he has the worst possible release and will die by byakua and his sword. prolly say something about arrogance also lol.

QMark
November 16, 2007, 07:53 PM
Man. Zomari already had to release and Byakuya didn't even use Shikai yet. It seems to me that Byakuya is going to throw a huge surprise on Zomari and show him why he has reason to be so arrogant.

I predict Byakuya's Cherry Blossom will blind Zomari. We will also get a glimpse at one of the other fights that are going on.

AngryChubbs
November 16, 2007, 08:15 PM
i predict byakua has something huge up his sleeves. he said "the way i am now i can not guarantee that i can continue fighting without swallowing you up as well" which leads me to think that he has a new trick with his shikai/bankai which just "swallows" everything up and completly pwns it. that could expalin why he doesn't seem worried about having to cut his own leg and zomari's release, but rather looks annoyed.

TheChosenOne
November 16, 2007, 08:48 PM
I think the swallow statement, is him about to release his shikai. I am not sure how shikai alone could defeat Zomari. Maybe Zomari will reveal some more abilities of brujeria and Byakuya releases bankai to counter it :)

pseudorca
November 16, 2007, 09:26 PM
I'm wondering if Hanataro is going to use his zanpakuto on Rukia (and Byakuya too I guess if/when he gets injured) and then release it on Zomari.

I think that would be quite amusing, if Byakuya didn't know about Hanatarou's shikai...
When he sees Hanatarou coming at him with his zanpakutou trying to cut him (in order to heal him), I wonder how he would react :amuse

paichow
November 16, 2007, 09:33 PM
i'm also bit dissappointed bout chap300... but it seems that byakuya very confident of himself... maybe we might see byakuya overpower zomari in the next chapter and hanatarou will save rukia and some fightng between kenpachi and noitra... hopefully inoue will heal ichigo and nell.

i'm a bit supprised that hanatarou joined them to HM. Maybe there's more coming with them (SS).

i just cant wait for kenpachi's fight....

ShinobiWrath
November 16, 2007, 09:35 PM
To be a Hindrance is one thing; to be called an eyesore goes beyond the levels of cruel and demeaning. Hanatarou must feel the size of a sesame seed. For shame Byakuya.

On the topic of the fight, I don't believe this is Zommari's only ability released. Even Grimmjow had a Zenkai(full release) and Szayel with his "voodoo magic" dolls served relevent in his fight. What's more, can Byakuya really stand against an Espada with just one leg? He can't proceed to cut off all his limbs to avoid manipulation and I highly doubt Zommari would grant him a time-out session for healing from Hanatarou. Given his proud demeanor I doubt he'd even allow the poor kid anywhere near the battle lest he be caught in the line of fire. I say Hanatarou by serendipity inadvertently saves him. I have no idea how but it just seems likely to me.

TheChosenOne
November 16, 2007, 09:58 PM
I think that Zomari does have another ability. But his ability of destroying the control and status of things, more powerful than any espada release we have seen. I wonder how Byakuya will counter against Zomari, If he goes shikai or bankai, can't zomari just control them. :)

Sealed Melody
November 16, 2007, 10:29 PM
You gotta admit that even though chapter 300 isnt what others had hyped up to be, it is still full of surprises.

Hanatarou is a very, very pleasant surprise. To think that Byakuya left him out like that - anyone besides me thinks that it is on purpose, so that he could escape from him?

That aside, Kubo is a damn eccentric person! I previously thought that Kishimoto had done pretty creepy things with Naruto - you know, coffins with corpse, snake hands and bodies, undying zombies, bugs.....Kubo had taken HM into another level of creativity altogether..

I would have thought that Zomari should have a more dignified release, perhaps a meditating position with abilities to command from afar. Well, i was a little close, but that tribal fusion wasnt what i expected at all. (I think nobody does too...)Seriously, there's a zoo in HM! we've got a bird (Cirucchi), worms (Bawa Bawa), butterfly (Szayel), cat (Grimmjow), a bull (Illforte), and a horse (Nell)....surprises me that Zomari adopted Tousen's Suzumushi bankai state below him (Suzumushi meant cricket, still another animal...)

Anyway, Zomari's speed, perhaps has nothing to do with his release. Just like how Nell's release had nothing to do with her regurgitation abilities (thanks to sahugani for this enlightenment). I predict that next week we can see Senbonzakura!!!

'Chire'...LOL

I hope he will ask Hanatarou to move Rukia away from the battle scene - after all, you may control where Zomari sticks his sword, but definitely not his visions. Byakuya isnt exactly the politest person around in Bleach. He has a reason to demean Hanatarou like that. He wants to tell him that Zomari, with his see-and-order ability, is beyond dangerous - it will be fatal because Byakuya will strike him down, if he or Rukia happened to be attacked by Zomari's attack

sythwon
November 16, 2007, 11:32 PM
not unless next chapter shifts abruptly to the szayel-mayuri or the zaraki-nnoitra fights, we'll be seeing byakuya release. shikai first, but bankai will definitely follow suit. prolly after a few exchanges between him and leroux. it would be interesting though to see how he counters the ability of leroux's zanpak "brujeria" since it "steals the sovereignty of whatever it sees." just how many eyes does that 7th esp have in his released state? byakuya'll attempt to blind leroux with his shikai, and when his efforts fail he'll go bankai and we'll see yet another technique byakuya has in his bankai form (ie. much like his senkei or something similar). byakuya's not one to just talk trash and act all mighty and powerful above others just because he wants to. he's one to back up his words, and his tone of being arrogant just comes from his pride as a captain-class shinigami coming from one of the four great noble families in soul society. that's just who he is. he can't help ooze some of that pride. haha :D it might look like zomari's owning him now, but the he'll pwn zomari in the end. sans one leg!

hanatarou being there should account for something as well, other than the obvious being the one to heal up rukia. let's assume that byakuya's informed of hana's zanpak capabilities, and leave the rest to our imagination as to how hana gets some action. it's free-for-all anyways :)

~ Sealed Melody

it does seem we have an animal farm in HM :amuse i think nell's more a centaur tho

eddy26
November 17, 2007, 12:16 AM
I think Byakuya still has the advantage eventhough his foot might be injured. His senbonzakura scatters so brujeria wouldn't work. He doesn't seem to have limitless eyes so Byakuya will easily be able to attack those eyes he has all over his body. I like Hanatarou and I'm sure he is just there probably at Byakuya's request. From the SS arc we all know that Hanatarou cares about Rukia so he was probably willing to go to HM with Byakuya. He might insult him but it shows that in a weird way Byakuya is concerned for Hantarou's well being. If Hanatorou gets injured while Byakuya is fighting who will be able to heal Rukia? Hanatarou will now also have to heal Byakuya once he kills Zomari. Byakuya just doesn't know how to speak to others because he is too prideful he needs to work more on his people skills instead of his Bankai. I'm pretty sure we needed to see Byakuya have a little struggle with Zomari because Kubo needed to show Zomari's skills. We have seen every espada release and their capabilities this is Zomari's chapter. We saw how Syzael's skills gave Ishida and Renji a beating. Now that we've seen Zomari release and Syzael release they are about to die especially Syzael. After they are killed then I think Kubo will show the Kenpachi fight. We will see Nnoi release and just a great battle with Kenpachi. No Ichigo interference unless Ulquiorra or Halibel try to join the battle with Nnoi or Ulquiorra tries to capture Orihime again. So next chapter Zomari is killed and then Kubo will switch to the Syzael - Mayuri battle.

pongy
November 17, 2007, 01:41 AM
Mmm.. am I the only one who think Zomari's ability is too deadly for him to be placed at just rank 7th =\?

I mean think about it.. if he really has the fastest sonido among all espadas.. (i hope it actually turns out to be false) after he released he could just use his sonido to perform that 5 bodies clones and then use his ability to take control of the opponent's most crucial body part.. say maybe a head or neck? That combination is too deadly.. I mean if he IS really the fastest, with this ability.. he should at least kind of surpass grimjow in ability...

I hope the next few chapters reveal some of his weakness or limitations in his ability.. or else he would be too godly in my opinion..

lilkwarrior
November 17, 2007, 02:06 AM
I think Hanataro will use his zanpak, we can finally see what it's power is. The anime labled it's power to heal any wound it touches, the manga could follow or change it.:)

I think Byakuya will be releasing bankai since he needs to cover a lot of ground. I think he will try to cut of all the eyes of Zomari's release. :)
Brilliant minds think alike, that's exactly what I was thinking! I think he's going to release to bankai next chapter, shikai just doesn't cut it, and he's not that big headed to think he's going to beat a Espada with simply shikai. He's definitely is going to try to cut out all the eyes, but I think Tite Kubo already knows this is a very predictable strategy, thus a twist to leave that option out of the question is ideal. Zomari probably knows that Byakuya would probably try to defeat him this way, and probably has another trick up his sleeve; he already shown he doesn't care how he defeats Byakuya as he tried to use his powers on Rukia, so maybe he'll try to control Hanatoro, or control Byakuya's head or something so he can't use his Bankai efficiently. Unless I forgot, as it's been months seeing the Soul Society Arc, Byakuya controls his Bankai with his hands, and it's becomes even faster with his eyes; So if Zomari controls Byakuya's head, it could make the scene even more disastrous. Keep in mind that Zomari doesn't actually knows that Byakuya even has an ability like that, so I think Byakuya would trick Zomari and not make it obvious what body parts are critical for his Bankai.
[hr]

Mmm.. am I the only one who think Zomari's ability is too deadly for him to be placed at just rank 7th =\?

I mean think about it.. if he really has the fastest sonido among all espadas.. (i hope it actually turns out to be false) after he released he could just use his sonido to perform that 5 bodies clones and then use his ability to take control of the opponent's most crucial body part.. say maybe a head or neck? That combination is too deadly.. I mean if he IS really the fastest, with this ability.. he should at least kind of surpass grimjow in ability...

I hope the next few chapters reveal some of his weakness or limitations in his ability.. or else he would be too godly in my opinion..
I pointed that out in another thread, though I didn't say it is too godly, with such an ability, I'm shocked Grimmjow is above him in rank. He would completely destroyed Ichigo, unless Ichigo killed him before he releases (which is is very capable of doing). What makes it even scarier is, that if Zomari has such an ability like that, then what of Nnoitora, Ulquiorra, and Halibel?:blink First Szayel and now Zomari, it's simply odd to me that both their abilities simply destroys Grimmjow's. Is there THAT much of a power difference in 6 and 7?

Zomari has to have a limitation of course. One that is tentatively obvious is that if Byakuya uses his many swords edges and take out the eyes, than this is going to be a very bloody (and gory scene). Obviously, hopefully, Tite Kubo knows that is on the average reader's mind, so he probably has a twist for using this strategy. I'm of course, guessing, don't think he is as fast as previously; Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he can't use sonido anymore but a different method to move, if at all. If not, then Zomari's demise might come from his personality/behavior or even overestimating his power of Amore.

KyanWan
November 17, 2007, 02:36 AM
Nell - is a goat ... er, goat-centaur ... whatever.

paichow
November 17, 2007, 03:18 AM
I think that Zomari does have another ability. But his ability of destroying the control and status of things, more powerful than any espada release we have seen. I wonder how Byakuya will counter against Zomari, If he goes shikai or bankai, can't zomari just control them. :)

i was thinking the same thing here... what if zomari can control 'senbonzakura'... what if he controls hanatarou or rukia to attack byakuya... hopefully byakuya has something up his sleeve..

Alkador
November 17, 2007, 06:07 AM
Hmmm, to me, it seems like that Zommari's eyes have to see whatever they're going to "rule".

So this might give Byakuya the upper hand with just Shikai. I mean, it's impossible to follow each individual blade with one's eyes and it makes me wonder how many objects Zomarri can gain rights over at any one time. Hopefully we'll see something along these lines happening in the chapter.

taimoor2
November 17, 2007, 06:20 AM
Hmm, it appears I have a totally different prediction than you guys this time! I think instead of taking out all the eyes of Zomari(this will be a gore scene and mangaka knows that it is not suitable for target audience and anime will edit it out anyways), Byakkuga will show some technique that is SOOOOO fast that none of Zomari's eyes will be able to see him at all and byakuuga will win with pure speed alone.


The reason he asked hnatarou to run is not because he wants to belittle him or about to show off some uber powerful technique, the real reason is he doesn't want him to be controlled by Zomari...

Simply put, Zomari has met the worst possible opponent for him. Byakuga is incredibly fast and has a sword that can hide him(cover his body) if need be....

jemoen
November 17, 2007, 07:09 AM
imo..he loses the ability to move at his quickest when he releases.
i mean come on..its a bit big to retain that speed.

and i think his power will have limitations

and byakuya will prob use his bankai to cover himself and destroy each eye
because its surely impossible to control every tiny blade in his bankai.
therefore byakuya is a bad match for him.

Zeus-Tails
November 17, 2007, 09:10 AM
Zomari only released quickly because he wanted to make Byakuya look like garbage. Since Byakuya was being arrogant, what better way to embarrass him than to finish him quickly?

Anyway, I predict Zomari takes control of Byakuya's right leg and left arm. I think in his released state Zomari isn't as fast unless he restricts his opponent. What Byakuya will do is release and use his mind to control his sword petals to attack Zomari (not needing his limbs to do anything) and that will lead to Zomari's downfall.

I also think Byakuya is just naturally a bad match-up for him. Byakuya would lose to someone like Grimmjow, Noitora, Ulquiorra and probably Szayel (if Szayel analyzed him beforehand). If you want to know why, just ask me :)

Caspis Sinclair
November 17, 2007, 09:57 AM
I probably should have brought this up in the last chapter, but isn't it a little strange that Aizen hasn't briefed any of the Espada on the Captains and their abilities? Is he simply curious to see how well they would match up without knowing exactly what they're going to face?

You would think that being a former Captain Aizen would have given the Espada a full description of their enemies long ago...

eddy26
November 17, 2007, 10:15 AM
You know I think Zomari would get his ass kicked if he were fighting Uryuu and his quincy powers. In the SS arc he was paralyzed and unable to use his limbs they weren't under his control. To get out of it he used ransoutengai to be able to stand up and fight. He moves as quickly as captains look at his fight with Mayuri he was able to keep up. His bow shoots quincy arrows at a high velocity. It would have been cooler if Uryuu was used to kill Zomari instead of having his stomach ripped open by Szayel. I don't know who said Byakuya would lose to Grimmjow, Noitora, Ulquirra and I think the greatest insult to Byakuya Szayel. Renji was still able to use shikai against Szayel so if Byakuya is able to use shikai he would have cut Szayel to pieces. With Grimmjow he would use ban kai and that would be the end of that battle. His countless blades are a great advantage over anyone if Byakuya defeats Zomari he is beating the espada with the fastest sonido. So he can easily attack Grimmjow speed wouldn't be a problem he might be quicker. Unlike Ichigo Byakuya is an expert at kidou so he has more attacks for Grimmjow as well. As for Nnoitora and Ulquiorra well yeah that would be a horrible match up for him. Kubo got it right though with Kenpachi against Nnoitra so Byakuya will never get the chance to fight him. Plus you never know what new skills Byakuya has learned that he'll use against Zomari in 301. Whatever he has picked up has made him stronger so Zomari R.I.P.

hollowdemon
November 17, 2007, 10:41 AM
kubo wouldnt just finish one fight in a row....but thats possible
my prediction for next chapter would start off with byakuya saying something about zomari's ability/moves;
a) then say a word of his new move from either shikai or bankai
afterwards would shift to another battle possibly mayuri vs szayels
b) does a move that zomari didnt expect and zomari pulls out another weird move which will cause byakuya to use bankai and finish him completely.

kenpachi vs nnoitra will still take a couple of more chapters til we see something about them from the gut feeling that im getting

TheChosenOne
November 17, 2007, 01:12 PM
Mmm.. am I the only one who think Zomari's ability is too deadly for him to be placed at just rank 7th =\?

I mean think about it.. if he really has the fastest sonido among all espadas.. (i hope it actually turns out to be false) after he released he could just use his sonido to perform that 5 bodies clones and then use his ability to take control of the opponent's most crucial body part.. say maybe a head or neck? That combination is too deadly.. I mean if he IS really the fastest, with this ability.. he should at least kind of surpass grimjow in ability...

I hope the next few chapters reveal some of his weakness or limitations in his ability.. or else he would be too godly in my opinion..

Well we don't know that he has the fastest sunido, he could be like Nnoi who thinks he is the strongest espada. Zomari could be over confident in his speed which makes him think that he has the fastest sunido. (unlikely):)


Zomari only released quickly because he wanted to make Byakuya look like garbage. Since Byakuya was being arrogant, what better way to embarrass him than to finish him quickly?

Anyway, I predict Zomari takes control of Byakuya's right leg and left arm. I think in his released state Zomari isn't as fast unless he restricts his opponent. What Byakuya will do is release and use his mind to control his sword petals to attack Zomari (not needing his limbs to do anything) and that will lead to Zomari's downfall.

I also think Byakuya is just naturally a bad match-up for him. Byakuya would lose to someone like Grimmjow, Noitora, Ulquiorra and probably Szayel (if Szayel analyzed him beforehand). If you want to know why, just ask me :)

Zomari released cuz he is fighting a captain, he thought it would be arrogant if he did not release. He wanted to fight byakuya at full power cuz he thinks since byakuya is a captains he deserves it.:)

I think Byakyuya will prolly show another technique learned from Yoruichi which enables him to move so fast that Zomari can't see him.:)


I probably should have brought this up in the last chapter, but isn't it a little strange that Aizen hasn't briefed any of the Espada on the Captains and their abilities? Is he simply curious to see how well they would match up without knowing exactly what they're going to face?

You would think that being a former Captain Aizen would have given the Espada a full description of their enemies long ago...

I don't think Aizen thought that captains would invade hueco mundo. He predicted Ichigo and Co. to invade and thus briefed the espada's. :)

Super Angillis
November 17, 2007, 02:23 PM
I know one thing. Byakuya will probably Chastise Zomari right before killing him.
"Did you really think one such as you could possibly rule over a Kuikichi? What arrogance."

hollowdemon
November 17, 2007, 02:31 PM
lol i can see him saying that before he kills him

TheChosenOne
November 17, 2007, 02:34 PM
I know one thing. Byakuya will probably Chastise Zomari right before killing him.
"Did you really think one such as you could possibly rule over a Kuikichi? What arrogance."

Well him being nobility, he will berate Zomari for his shortcomings. Byakuya has to do that to retain his identity as being superior :)

AngryChubbs
November 17, 2007, 02:39 PM
i could be wrong but didn't zomari say he was one of the last origional espadas. so maybe when he said he had the fastest sonido, he meant that it was the fastest among the originals. that would explain why he is only at number 7 with his ability to control what he sees. just a thought, what do you guys think.

TheChosenOne
November 17, 2007, 02:46 PM
i could be wrong but didn't zomari say he was one of the last origional espadas. so maybe when he said he had the fastest sonido, he meant that it was the fastest among the originals. that would explain why he is only at number 7 with his ability to control what he sees. just a thought, what do you guys think.

Zomari was talking about Arroniero when mentioning the original espada. He could be an orginal espada, since Nnoi think of himself as the strongest.


http://read.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/297/010.jpg

hollowdemon
November 17, 2007, 02:53 PM
zomari could also be one of the original espadas since he said "you too" to aaorineiro (i dont think i spelled that right)

TheChosenOne
November 17, 2007, 03:01 PM
zomari could also be one of the original espadas since he said "you too" to aaorineiro (i dont think i spelled that right)

Like AngryChubbs said it is a perfect argument to why he thinks he has the fastet sunido. That explains why Nnoi think of himself as the strongest espada since he is stronger than Zomari, Szayel and Aaroniero. :)

hollowdemon
November 17, 2007, 03:06 PM
with that being said. it gives us more proof that the ones above and higher than them including ulquiorra. they probably are the vasto lordes it gives us a stronger detail and fact that he and halibel and etc. are vasto lordes.

TheChosenOne
November 17, 2007, 03:10 PM
I predict that Byakuya will prolly release shikai and Zomari will most likely control it, which will make byakuya release bankai and show the power gap between the two. :)

ttxdragon
November 17, 2007, 03:18 PM
erm, i think you are ignoring the little word "last".


Zomari clearly states that Aroniero was the LAST of the original espada...
the "You too" means nothing more than that the other first-gen espada met a "tragic demise" too.


as for what I see happening:
I see Kubo continuing one of the other fights,

I honestly want to see Kenpachi, but I believe we are going to see Mayuri next.
The Unohana Squad won't be shown often, I believe, since we barely get updates on "healing stations" in bleach ^^;

TheChosenOne
November 17, 2007, 04:31 PM
What about Szayel and Nnoi, aren't they Original espada as well. Why would he say last of the orginal espada when Nnoi and Szayel is around. Nell's flashback states that Nnoi and Szayel (who was demoted) were espada way before Aizen came into Hueco Mundo. :)

ttxdragon
November 17, 2007, 05:23 PM
It never states that.

Aroniero being member of the original espada proofs pretty well that the ranks of "espada" were invented by Aizen.
The age of Aroniero proofs that Aizen was doing his stuff for a pretty long time already, since I don't think the Kaien incident could've been that recent or ichigo would've caused reactions in more people than the Kuchiki and Ukitake.

Then, the existance of Dorudoni proofs there being members from the original espada being demoted and replaced by newer ones. How long ago that was? we don't know, but seeing as Aroniero was the last one of the originals, I guess one can assume that dorudoni doesn't count as the Aroniero-generation. Which means we already got four "generations" of espada:
Original (Aaroniero)
"Privaron" (Dorudoni, Chirrucchi)
"Current" (Noitora, Zomari, Stark, Ulquiorra, others)
"Future" (As I definitely believe that Wonderweiss will be a new generation better than the current ones)

now, whether Noitora and Nell belong into a further generation between "privaron" and "current" is still to be debated, but judging from all hints we got until now, I am pretty sure there is another generation between the two.

Neuroff
November 17, 2007, 11:04 PM
It never states that.

Aroniero being member of the original espada proofs pretty well that the ranks of "espada" were invented by Aizen.
The age of Aroniero proofs that Aizen was doing his stuff for a pretty long time already, since I don't think the Kaien incident could've been that recent or ichigo would've caused reactions in more people than the Kuchiki and Ukitake.

Then, the existance of Dorudoni proofs there being members from the original espada being demoted and replaced by newer ones. How long ago that was? we don't know, but seeing as Aroniero was the last one of the originals, I guess one can assume that dorudoni doesn't count as the Aroniero-generation. Which means we already got four "generations" of espada:
Original (Aaroniero)
"Privaron" (Dorudoni, Chirrucchi)
"Current" (Noitora, Zomari, Stark, Ulquiorra, others)
"Future" (As I definitely believe that Wonderweiss will be a new generation better than the current ones)

now, whether Noitora and Nell belong into a further generation between "privaron" and "current" is still to be debated, but judging from all hints we got until now, I am pretty sure there is another generation between the two.
I really don't see how that would prove that Aizen started the espada, especially considering that a requirement of being an espada is to be an arrancar. Aizen hasn't had the ability to create arrancar until recently, but Nel, Nnoitra, and Szayel Aporro have been arrancar for years.

kaitendragon
November 17, 2007, 11:08 PM
Byakuya will probably go Bankai and use the blades as a CURTAIN to cover Zomaries eyes and then finish him off somehow.

AngryChubbs
November 17, 2007, 11:45 PM
well considering we really have no idea how time works in bleach and how long aizen has been able to set things up in HM and everything, we cant relly tell who was origional or who is brand spankin new....except for wonderwice, hes new lol. but the reason why me and a bunch of other people think that there was an origional before aizen even came to be is that with what was shown to us, there are some that got kicked to 100's after aizen came, and that some of the current espada's tend to think that they are the strongest or fastest. now to me, it doesn't make sense for a guy who "has the fastest sonido among all the espada, and when release has the ability to take the sovereinty of objects and control them just by looking at it", for him to be a number as low as 7 is kind of odd. and also, you have people like noitora saying he is the strongest one, and he is only number 5 so unless he litterally just has the strongest physical power, then there could be something else there


im watching tv...so this whole thing might not make sense but hopefully you get what im saying lol

Radio
November 18, 2007, 12:06 AM
I'm a bit disappointed, to say the least.
Although I find Zomari's release quite weird, I see the majesticness(if that's a word) of his release.
He talks about honor and being the same level and his release shows the level that he has can far surpass the "sovereign" rule.

P.S.
I hate Hanatarou.
):



@AngryChubbs
You do know that we haven't seen Stark, Ulquiorra, Halibel, and Old Man's release yet, don't you? Maybe Stark(Who I predict to be Primero Espada) will have a totally uber release.
:@

ReyZaBurrel
November 18, 2007, 12:09 AM
^^Other than grimmjaw all the espadas releases have been wierd. #8 is a cross between a butterfly and an octopus, #9 is a giant blob.

Monkeyshank
November 18, 2007, 12:59 AM
***Best possible prediction***
Zomari In an attempt to show Bya how great his amor is will take control of Hantaro And make him attack rukia, Bya will pretend he cannot save her so when hantaro slashes Rukia she will be healed and will team up with bya.


awe brother and sister super team like the wonder twins

In addition If zomari in a wierd twist if now imoblie(from being the fastest) then rukia and her Ice spot/ dance Shikia would own him.

lonewolfx0
November 18, 2007, 01:12 AM
I agree... I think that Zomari will try to take over Hanataro like he did Rukia and have him attack either Byakuya, or attack Rukia in an attempt to threaten Byakuya... if the anime omake's really stick to Kubo's canon... but not everyone that reads the manga would watch the anime or watch past the end credits to see the little omake's at the end... so technically, according to manga, we haven't seen what Hanataro's ability is ::shrugs::

Neuroff
November 18, 2007, 01:30 AM
I'm pretty sure the anime took Hanatarou's ability from one of the tankobon special pages that Kubo wrote.

Silhouette
November 18, 2007, 02:30 AM
I am assuming that if Byakuya was able to increase his sakura-blade's attack speed previously by using both of his arms, then he must be able to make them go even faster now that he can move faster himself. My prediction is that Byakuya will spin around in high velocity creating a violent huge storm of sakura-blades that will engulf the surroundings including Le Rous and slash his many eyes. Le Roux's eyes look relatively sensitive in comparison to the rest of his form and most likely they are his weak point.

ttxdragon
November 18, 2007, 05:57 AM
I really don't see how that would prove that Aizen started the espada, especially considering that a requirement of being an espada is to be an arrancar. Aizen hasn't had the ability to create arrancar until recently, but Nel, Nnoitra, and Szayel Aporro have been arrancar for years.


Let's see,
Aarooniero was one of Aizens experiments, really weak compared to the current espada (at that point) and even though that was the case, he was part of an "espada". That leads to believe that Aizen made an espada that had his experiments as the members of it.
What further creates that thought is the nature of hollows as shown in the grimmjow flashback, they might build packs, but they don't form whole organizations like this.


Aizen likely never lacked the knowledge of how to create arrancar. Since we know of two ways at least (ripping of the mast forcefully and hougyouku), I highly doubt that someone like Aizen who did extreme experiments on Hollows would not know about the first one and maybe even a third method and wouldn't have thought about how to improve the "result", which makes those "natural arrancar" stronger than the others.

But yeah, in the end it is for me enough proof to feel it's a fact that Aizen created the Espada -- how others see it might be different.


And the requirement to be an espada isn't to be an arrancar, imho. Seeing how it works there it seems more like the requirement is "to be (somewhat) loyal to aizen, live in las noches and be stronger the other espada members". That they are all arrancar just shows the superiority of them. Of course there could be hollows (vasto lorde) out there that are already stronger than the current espada, but won't serve aizen until he fulfills his part of the deal --> make them stronger by turning them into arrancar.



I hope I made my point somewhat understandable even if other might not be of the same opinion :p

Neuroff
November 18, 2007, 08:21 AM
Let's see,
Aarooniero was one of Aizens experiments, really weak compared to the current espada (at that point) and even though that was the case, he was part of an "espada". That leads to believe that Aizen made an espada that had his experiments as the members of it.
What further creates that thought is the nature of hollows as shown in the grimmjow flashback, they might build packs, but they don't form whole organizations like this.
The guy was powerful enough to be an espada during Aizen's reign so he must have been one of the top espada back then. And the nature of hollows is just that, the nature of hollows, not arrancar. Becoming arrancar must bring out more of their former human sides, which they need to become hybrids.


Aizen likely never lacked the knowledge of how to create arrancar. Since we know of two ways at least (ripping of the mast forcefully and hougyouku), I highly doubt that someone like Aizen who did extreme experiments on Hollows would not know about the first one and maybe even a third method and wouldn't have thought about how to improve the "result", which makes those "natural arrancar" stronger than the others.

But yeah, in the end it is for me enough proof to feel it's a fact that Aizen created the Espada -- how others see it might be different.
I didn't think of this earlier, but Aizen himself says that his attempts at creating hollow-shinigami hybrids were failures. On pages 11-12 of chapter 175 he says, "I focused on Shinigami-Hollows, and... I had successfully created several hollows that were close to shinigami. Hollows that could hide their spiritual pressure, a hollow that could make soul cutters disappear... and even fuse with shinigami... but all of them were trash, and not worthy of being called breakthroughs." Other researchers are bound by stupidity and morality... so no one has ever made any sort of breakthrough either. No one, except Urahara Kisuke. He created a substance that reacts beyond the conventional physics of Soul Society... it can instantly dissolve the barrier between hollow and shinigami. The name of that substance is 'Hougyoku.'"


And the requirement to be an espada isn't to be an arrancar, imho. Seeing how it works there it seems more like the requirement is "to be (somewhat) loyal to aizen, live in las noches and be stronger the other espada members". That they are all arrancar just shows the superiority of them. Of course there could be hollows (vasto lorde) out there that are already stronger than the current espada, but won't serve aizen until he fulfills his part of the deal --> make them stronger by turning them into arrancar.
When Nel explains to Ichigo what the numeros are, she says this, "Numeros are the Menos Grande and higher that become Arrancar." That pretty much means that in order to join the Espada/Numeros, you must be an Arrancar.

chrisb3
November 18, 2007, 08:56 AM
Interesting thing is that the first Numeros are from GJ's group, since they are numbered in birth order. (Shawlong was Numero #11)
Also I don't think we have met any Numeros after GJ's group invaded the real world, for example Tesla never revealed if he had a number or not.

So I would guess that the first Arrancar created via the hougyoku is GJ, and his group becoming the first Numeros.

Before that all of the Arrancar must have been natural ones, and pretty rare if Numeros weren't nessesary.


Now why would Arrancar randomly say "Lets have the strongest 10 rule us, and make a castle that can hold hundreds of us, even though we are currently really rare!", you've got to have a leader organizing this.
So either Aizen created the whole thing as a mirror to Soul Society, or some other Arrancar was previously the King of Las Noches and powerful enough to keep it all together. Maybe Old Guy Espada? :)

ttxdragon
November 18, 2007, 09:25 AM
The guy was powerful enough to be an espada during Aizen's reign so he must have been one of the top espada back then. And the nature of hollows is just that, the nature of hollows, not arrancar. Becoming arrancar must bring out more of their former human sides, which they need to become hybrids.

He was an experiment by Aizen and always his follower and under Aizens control due to that. He also said himself that he steadily grows stronger, which means he grew with the espada and that's why he was still there. He wasn't in there because he always was in the form he was there.

Until now there is no hint of an espada before Aizen, all Espada until now were associated to Aizen by being (somewhat) loyal to him and under his command. Until now I got to see proof from the manga that doesn't establish Las Noches as well as the Espada as something not done by Aizen.

To conduct experiments, he needs a base, so he got Las Noches.
To rule, he needed an order, so he created his Espada system which is somewhat very similar to the captain system (another hint, imho) with some tweaks to accommodate his situation.



I didn't think of this earlier, but Aizen himself says that his attempts at creating hollow-shinigami hybrids were failures. On pages 11-12 of chapter 175 he says, "I focused on Shinigami-Hollows, and... I had successfully created several hollows that were close to shinigami. Hollows that could hide their spiritual pressure, a hollow that could make soul cutters disappear... and even fuse with shinigami... but all of them were trash, and not worthy of being called breakthroughs." Other researchers are bound by stupidity and morality... so no one has ever made any sort of breakthrough either. No one, except Urahara Kisuke. He created a substance that reacts beyond the conventional physics of Soul Society... it can instantly dissolve the barrier between hollow and shinigami. The name of that substance is 'Hougyoku.'"

Yes, he said that.
But at the same time we know that the "natural"/"ripped off mask" arrancar are quite unstable and to be counted as failures compared to the Hougyouku-arrancar. That mask ripping method seemed by no way to be the most secure and stable as well as effective way to create arrancar and even less to create perfect hybrids/arrancar.

They are failures in their own right.



When Nel explains to Ichigo what the numeros are, she says this, "Numeros are the Menos Grande and higher that become Arrancar." That pretty much means that in order to join the Espada/Numeros, you must be an Arrancar.

hmmm... I might've been mistaken there then. :)
that must've slipped my mind >_<

hollowdemon
November 18, 2007, 12:00 PM
Interesting thing is that the first Numeros are from GJ's group, since they are numbered in birth order. (Shawlong was Numero #11)
Also I don't think we have met any Numeros after GJ's group invaded the real world, for example Tesla never revealed if he had a number or not.

So I would guess that the first Arrancar created via the hougyoku is GJ, and his group becoming the first Numeros.

Before that all of the Arrancar must have been natural ones, and pretty rare if Numeros weren't nessesary.


Now why would Arrancar randomly say "Lets have the strongest 10 rule us, and make a castle that can hold hundreds of us, even though we are currently really rare!", you've got to have a leader organizing this.
So either Aizen created the whole thing as a mirror to Soul Society, or some other Arrancar was previously the King of Las Noches and powerful enough to keep it all together. Maybe Old Guy Espada? :)


thats a good point u made about the numeros since after all only GJ's group was the only ones that revealed their number of the numeros. whats still a mystery is that GJ's group stopped at either 15 or 16? (with d-ray being last) and still a couple more remaining after all it is 20 brothers and sisters. Not that it really matters but just a food for thought.

the only way the whole espada ranking was created was probably based on their power level. it couldn't just be randomly picked by choice as to whos a rank higher than who but whoever created the ranking must've known what they were doing.

I'm still not convinced that aizen was the one who created the whole espada ranking since i do believe that the previous king is still alive and/or either working under aizen or hiding out somewhere waiting for the right moment to get back at aizen.
Its a nice guess that the old guy could've been the old king since he does wear a crown and he really could be the previous king.

TheChosenOne
November 18, 2007, 01:16 PM
***Best possible prediction***
Zomari In an attempt to show Bya how great his amor is will take control of Hantaro And make him attack rukia, Bya will pretend he cannot save her so when hantaro slashes Rukia she will be healed and will team up with bya.


awe brother and sister super team like the wonder twins

In addition If zomari in a wierd twist if now imoblie(from being the fastest) then rukia and her Ice spot/ dance Shikia would own him.

I think Rukia will just lay and be healed by Hana. Since Rukia is always being saved, when on the verge of death, there would be no point in Her fighting an another espada. I don't think Rukia could even help Bya in the fight, she would be an interference. :)


Until now there is no hint of an espada before Aizen, all Espada until now were associated to Aizen by being (somewhat) loyal to him and under his command. Until now I got to see proof from the manga that doesn't establish Las Noches as well as the Espada as something not done by Aizen.

What about Nell, Nnoi and Szayel being espada's before Aizen. Szayel was a demoted espada, does that mean as soon as Aizen showed up they started to follow him. There are not Aizen created espada's they became arrancar by their own way. Since Aizen could not create perfect arrancar till he got the houkyoku.:)

hollowdemon
November 18, 2007, 01:51 PM
the ones that were created by aizen and the hougyoku was probably ulquorra and above possibly halibel also

ttxdragon
November 18, 2007, 02:07 PM
What about Nell, Nnoi and Szayel being espada's before Aizen.

Aizen was in Hueco Mundo for a very long time already.
So them saying something about "some years" doesn't mean very much.


Now, to go into it further:

Why would hollows follow Aizen and help him in experiments?
How would he go about doing it and creating/establishing everything?

I don't think he would go and right away meet up with some hoards of Menos, be they Adjuchas or Vasto Lorde...

Seeing Aizen at work would make me think he did it the following way:
- He took some "lower" hollows and experimented on them, he made them stronger...
- being attracted to power, some of the stronger normal hollows gathered up. He started getting a good bunch of underlings willing to go with him for power.
- He established a place to gather ---> las noches
- He establishes his own structures, as he gets further in his experiments, for one he attracts some stronger hollows, and goes to confront menos with his plans and stuff (displays his power and offers them a deal for not killing them) ---> The first espada is created about the same time out of loyal and somewhat "strong" hollows/menos.

That's what I personally believe. Of course, I got no facts other than what I stated already to back this up and those facts aren't too much.



There are not Aizen created espada's they became arrancar by their own way. Since Aizen could not create perfect arrancar till he got the houkyoku.:)


How and when he learned about the "natural hybridization" possibility stands for debate, but I guess it was after he first created the espada at latest. He searched for ways to get arrancars and subsequently gain info on how to get stronger himself, so I bet he wouldn't let such a hint as that slip.

Due to that not being a perfect method and not working for shinigami (they don't have a mask, so how would they rip it of? :p ), he still searched on which leads to him finding the hougyouku and the current story setting.

The rest of the "espada generations", I explained them above.

hollowdemon
November 18, 2007, 02:46 PM
but aizen wasnt even there for half a year. the effects that took from aizen's arrival was drastic but it doesnt mean in that short period of time he would be able to do that, then again i could be wrong after all 3-4 months is enough to do the following that u mentioned

TheChosenOne
November 18, 2007, 02:56 PM
@ttxdragon

Where does it say that Aizen was in Hueco Mundo for a long time. I though he went to Hueco mundo after he discovered the Hougyoku. Or are you implying that he was in contact with Hueco Mundo even when he was a captain for all those years, Gathering hollow and arrancar for support when he rises to hueco mundo. :)

ttxdragon
November 18, 2007, 02:57 PM
Aizen was in contact with hollows for a very long time.

We know he was the one who made Aarooniero have the sword-absorbing ability.
This needs long studies alone. The Kaien incident shows pretty clearly that those studies were done not that recently.

His drastic measures (killing chamber 46, feigning death) were recent developments. and were not planned to be this drastic. He said himself that he had to accommodate his plans when he noticed rukia is the container of the Hougyouku and he didn't have any trace of her for a while. He had to act before she turned into a simple human through Uraharas Gigai, at which point it would've been thousand times harder to track her down. Maybe even impossible -- who knows what Urahara would've planned as countermeasures if they didn't find Rukia.


Aizen did not step into HM, said "Here I am" and in the next two minutes every hollow feared him. He had to built up what he accomplished in Hueco Mundo.He was there for years, for research and for establishing his control.

hollowdemon
November 18, 2007, 03:03 PM
good point....
they did help him go to hueco mundo with the negacion
and im guessing at the point when aizen decided to make a deliberate scheme with the hollows which was to keep in contact with hueco mundo thats when Gin and Tousen decided to join in with him too
aizen's a clever ass cat with the scheming and planning

p.s- anybody ever thought while aizen was a lieutenant while urahara kisuke was the captain of that squad? that might've been the reason why aizen had thoughts about the whole hollow/shinigami process from

TheChosenOne
November 18, 2007, 03:15 PM
@ttxdragon

What sword absorbing ability, are you talking about his ability to absorb other hollows, or something different :)

ttxdragon
November 18, 2007, 03:21 PM
See the Kaien Incident, it is shown while rukia is in the white tower, before the first Ichigo vs. Byakuya Sequence:

The hollow that became the arrancar Aarooniero had the ability to absorb Zanpakutou and to be able to merge with other Souls and command those bodies.

He was supposedly killed by Rukia, but looking at the Rukia/Aarooniero fight you can see that he lived on due to another special mechanism which Aizen integrated into him.

Neuroff
November 18, 2007, 03:30 PM
He was an experiment by Aizen and always his follower and under Aizens control due to that. He also said himself that he steadily grows stronger, which means he grew with the espada and that's why he was still there. He wasn't in there because he always was in the form he was there.

Until now there is no hint of an espada before Aizen, all Espada until now were associated to Aizen by being (somewhat) loyal to him and under his command. Until now I got to see proof from the manga that doesn't establish Las Noches as well as the Espada as something not done by Aizen.

To conduct experiments, he needs a base, so he got Las Noches.
To rule, he needed an order, so he created his Espada system which is somewhat very similar to the captain system (another hint, imho) with some tweaks to accommodate his situation.
Steadily growing stronger really means nothing. Basically everyone in the whole manga is steadily growing stronger. If he was actually having true growth, he wouldn't still be a gillian. The fact that the espada existed when Aizen knew nothing of creating hybrids is proof that they have been there since before Aizen.


Yes, he said that.
But at the same time we know that the "natural"/"ripped off mask" arrancar are quite unstable and to be counted as failures compared to the Hougyouku-arrancar. That mask ripping method seemed by no way to be the most secure and stable as well as effective way to create arrancar and even less to create perfect hybrids/arrancar.

They are failures in their own right.
Failures? Nel, Nnoitra and Szayel were not made with the Hougyoku, yet they are all still strong enough to be top 10, even after Aizen made his new espada.

TheChosenOne
November 18, 2007, 03:35 PM
See the Kaien Incident, it is shown while rukia is in the white tower, before the first Ichigo vs. Byakuya Sequence:

The hollow that became the arrancar Aarooniero had the ability to absorb Zanpakutou and to be able to merge with other Souls and command those bodies.

He was supposedly killed by Rukia, but looking at the Rukia/Aarooniero fight you can see that he lived on due to another special mechanism which Aizen integrated into him.

You mean metastacia, wasn't he the one with the ability to absorb spirit bodies. Metastacia didn't become an arrancar, he was fed upon by Aaroniero which gave him the absorption ability. Which enabled him to feast upon 30000 hollows. :)


http://read.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/267/008.jpg

Neuroff
November 18, 2007, 04:05 PM
Aizen was in Hueco Mundo for a very long time already.
So them saying something about "some years" doesn't mean very much.

Now, to go into it further:

Why would hollows follow Aizen and help him in experiments?
How would he go about doing it and creating/establishing everything?

I don't think he would go and right away meet up with some hoards of Menos, be they Adjuchas or Vasto Lorde...

Seeing Aizen at work would make me think he did it the following way:
- He took some "lower" hollows and experimented on them, he made them stronger...
- being attracted to power, some of the stronger normal hollows gathered up. He started getting a good bunch of underlings willing to go with him for power.
- He established a place to gather ---> las noches
- He establishes his own structures, as he gets further in his experiments, for one he attracts some stronger hollows, and goes to confront menos with his plans and stuff (displays his power and offers them a deal for not killing them) ---> The first espada is created about the same time out of loyal and somewhat "strong" hollows/menos.

That's what I personally believe. Of course, I got no facts other than what I stated already to back this up and those facts aren't too much.
Didn't you see the quote I posted? He specifically states the types of hybrids that he created. None of them were even close to being on the scale of any espada. Yet Nel, Nnoitra, and Szayel have been around as Espada for many years.


How and when he learned about the "natural hybridization" possibility stands for debate, but I guess it was after he first created the espada at latest. He searched for ways to get arrancars and subsequently gain info on how to get stronger himself, so I bet he wouldn't let such a hint as that slip.

Due to that not being a perfect method and not working for shinigami (they don't have a mask, so how would they rip it of? :p ), he still searched on which leads to him finding the hougyouku and the current story setting.

The rest of the "espada generations", I explained them above.
Again, he specifically talks about the exact hollows that he created. There is no way Aizen could have just left for hueco mundo whenever he wanted. That would require negacion every single time, which would have made it completely obvious that Aizen wasn't on their side.


See the Kaien Incident, it is shown while rukia is in the white tower, before the first Ichigo vs. Byakuya Sequence:

The hollow that became the arrancar Aarooniero had the ability to absorb Zanpakutou and to be able to merge with other Souls and command those bodies.

He was supposedly killed by Rukia, but looking at the Rukia/Aarooniero fight you can see that he lived on due to another special mechanism which Aizen integrated into him.
TheChosenOne answered this. I guess you thought that Aaroniero was created by Aizen, which would explain why you thought he created the espada.

QMark
November 18, 2007, 04:32 PM
One thing has recently hit me lately that has been on the top of my mind. The Hygouku isn't completed yet and we got these arrancar that when they release, it shows their full power. So how is this breaking the barrier between Hollows and Soul Reapers? I mean, Soul Reapers usually have an initial release then a full release but these espada just have full releases.
So this brings me back to when the first arrancar showed up. From what was displayed, they seemed to be the early versions of arrancar and they had no actual release. Then came the rest such as Grimmjow and his fraccion and they had releases.
Anyhow, I'm rambling. Basic point I'm trying to make is if these are still not yet completed versions of the arrancar that Aizen wants, does that mean that the Vastolorde's will have 2 releases? Such as the arrancar equivalent to Shikai and Bankai. IDK, just a thought.

Also, the mask time limit also seems to be a side effect of the hollowization. Does that also mean that at some point, the Soul Reapers will be able to use it without a time limit? Most of them only gain masks as shown but Ichigo got a full body transformation during the training. Could that have been foresight into whats in store for Ichigo? Or perhaps even the rest of the Soul Reapers that take the path of hollowization?

Darek Khort
November 18, 2007, 05:29 PM
I reckon knowing Byakuya, he won't let Han near him. Probably just heal Rukia.
Byakuya's shikai and bankai are basically metal bits. With all the ice around them and hopefully some light (such as the hole Rukia blasted when she fought that two-headed espada), it will reflect blinding Zomari.
Either that or Byakuya will use his techniques to cover himself, Rukia and Han from Zomari's eyes, then use 'extra' petals to attack Zomari's eyes.

Zomari definately has more up his sleeves though. He has to be the soonest-releasing Espada we've seen yet.

sythwon
November 18, 2007, 05:56 PM
@TheChosenOne >>
Right about Aaroniero there. Not to be confused with Metastacia (the hollow experimented on by Aizen that got Kaien). I'm sure Aaroniero was already stuffed with thousands before feeding on Metastacia, though :)

Recap: Aaroniero was definitely pre-Aizen Espada. And, being the only Gillian among the current Espada, Aaroniero was the only one who had the chance to evolve and become stronger (as compared to the other nine). Unfortunately, the poor dude's dead now. He should've made his fishbowl "ice-proof" :amuse

---
My take on the Espada origin? I say it wasn't all Aizen.

Aizen's played a big part on making the current Espada and Arrancar in Las Noches stronger. He's been conducting experiments since his SS captain days, and he's got the hougyoku with him now. [Note: Aizen's given the current Esp "kana negacion" to keep their subordinates in line.] My guess is he struck a deal with the old Espada and promised he'd make them stronger (possibly during his early years as a Gotei13 captain).

Giving Aizen all the credit for establishing the Espada and Las Noches is ludicrous. It's not impossible, but i'd say it's close to improbable.

In HM where hollows exist, it's been established that hollows even take out their own kind. Menos form when similar hollow are drawn to each other, and they become one huge hollow with the least intellect or consciousness. 2nd class gillian follow, and those are the Adjuchas. They command the Menos; they're stronger and smarter as well. Arrancar are those hollows that take their masks off to obtain shinigami powers. Once they obtain those shinigami powers, their masks aren't fully removed. They appear a little less "unmasked" if not retain a part of their mask on them. Grandfisher was an Adjuchas-Arrancar. In the current ep, the ones that got Nel's group are merely Adjuchas. The Vastoolordes are the most humanoid in form, and they're said to be the strongest kind of hollows. We've all had our own speculations as to who are the Vastoo among the current Espada.

Point is, it's not far off to say that the Espadas are a product of evolution. In HM, it's survival of the fittest. The strongest are meant to stand on top of the food chain. The ranks 1 to 10 signify their power, and that is also the reason why they have command over the rest of the Numeros. [A little segway --GJ never officially called the guys he was with "his fraccion." He just had that dominance over them, that he could order them around. (Oh, they shared some history too, those dead Arrancars he brought to the real world). --Aaroniero didn't have any fraccion. He didn't need to, he was a one-man hollow army of 30k+ --Szayel's got his own modified fraccion --Halibel's got her all-girl fraccion. --What of Yammi? :amuse] The current filler eps show that you've got the Menos Forest below the sand (where the Menos nest, ordinary hollows can be found, and a band of Adjuchas reside) while Las Noches is above sand. It's a dog eat dog world, and there will be attempts to make it to the top.

---
301 will continue with byakuya revealing more of what he learned from yoruichi. shikai, bankai, or another technique of his we've never seen before in bankai mode that'll take out zomari's eyes (or at least nullify its sight since his release's abilities hinges on "what his eyes see"). next chap won't feature byakuya's final blow to zomari just yet. i agree that the mayuri-szayel part will be starting off in next chap's final pages.

---
[hr]


Again, he specifically talks about the exact hollows that he created. There is no way Aizen could have just left for hueco mundo whenever he wanted. That would require negacion every single time, which would have made it completely obvious that Aizen wasn't on their side.


I thought Garganta was the method to get into HM. And isn't negacion used by Menos to save or to bring back their own into HM?



Zomari definately has more up his sleeves though. He has to be the soonest-releasing Espada we've seen yet.

He sure is quick to the draw. Abt time he pulls out his bag of tricks, too! Unless he intends to become the fastest Espada to die in a battle :D

hollowdemon
November 18, 2007, 06:28 PM
i agree that zomari is the quickest espada to show his release which i hope indicates one thing. he will die FAST cause we need to move on with the story and have more explaining chapters rather than fighting. Dont get me wrong i love the action packed chapters when they clash heads and duke it out, but this arc just reminds me too much of the SS arc except that we have the SS captains as added characters.
Thats not the main reason why, but im sure just like the rest of us we'd like to know the whole story of hueco mundo and the history of the espadas thats remaining also of course the vasto lordes.

Jack Van Burace
November 18, 2007, 07:37 PM
But I think Kubo will first show all the fights and difficulties, to then show each closure. By making everyone appear in a difficulty, he would increase tension and expectation over who's really going to win each of them.

Szayel in example, has been fighting for 35 manga chapters. If his fight last 10 more, we'll have a year lasting fight. In the anime, it might show as a 6 month long fight, as each anime chapter counts as 2 from the manga. That's too long to be fighting. It is the longest fight this manga has ever seen. It is as big as fillers, and have several points in which they can make them longer, such as clone battle, Fración battle, Renji fighting Szayel in shikai in the beginning, all these can be extended. Kubo doesn't even need to write new fillers.

darkband
November 18, 2007, 07:51 PM
I think that Zomari will take control of Hanataro and make him attack Rukia, this will then heal her because of his shikai. Zomari will stop using him as he's useless for that, and try to take Rukia, Bya will stop him and tell them to leave. He then pulls out his tricks for the fastest Espada battle yet.

As for the Espada debate, here is my theory.

1. It is possible to become an Arrancar with a fully humanoid form without the Hougyoku, it just requires a lot more time and work on the part of the hollow in question.
2. Therefore the Espada from years back gained the power on their own. This would get rid of all the time loops in that whole confusing part.
3. Also I think becoming an arrancar like that and becoming a vastolorde are two seperate processes, both yielding the result of a human appearance. Most hollow are just too stupid to realize how to do this.

My theory would fix most of the holes, what do you guys think?

Neuroff
November 18, 2007, 09:03 PM
I thought Garganta was the method to get into HM. And isn't negacion used by Menos to save or to bring back their own into HM?
Garganta is the gate that Urahara made to get into Hueco Mundo. I doubt Aizen knows about it, especially if Mayuri can't even make his own gateway to Hueco Mundo.

chrisb3
November 18, 2007, 10:02 PM
Recap: Aaroniero was definitely pre-Aizen Espada.
That's a guess, all we know is that he was an origonal espada. He's in the espada because of the ability he took from metastacia.
So either:
-He's very very old and was in the espada because of a different powerful unrevealed ability. (So why still a Gillian? Killed without all abilities revealed?)
-There were only around 10 natural arrancar, so he got in by default before he had his absorb ability. (So how was he better than Ssyzel/Tesla/Peshe/other fraccion?)
-Someone invented the espada around the time metastacia died.


Grandfisher was an Adjuchas-Arrancar.
He was a normal hollow. Not a menos?


Giving Aizen all the credit for establishing the Espada and Las Noches is ludicrous. It's not impossible, but i'd say it's close to improbable.
We just don't know, your guessing. :D

Neuroff
November 18, 2007, 10:17 PM
That's a guess, all we know is that he was an origonal espada. He's in the espada because of the ability he took from metastacia.
So either:
-He's very very old and was in the espada because of a different powerful unrevealed ability. (So why still a Gillian? Killed without all abilities revealed?)
-There were only around 10 natural arrancar, so he got in by default before he had his absorb ability. (So how was he better than Ssyzel/Tesla/Peshe/other fraccion?)
-Someone invented the espada around the time metastacia died.
He was in the espada because he takes all the abilities of hollows he consumes.


We just don't know, your guessing. :D
There is no way Aizen could have formed the espada but know next to nothing about creating arrancar.

sythwon
November 19, 2007, 12:01 AM
@chrisb3

pre-aizen espada means espada before aizen sat on the throne in las noches. so yeah, if those ones were original first bunch espadas. however, a few corrections if i may add:

aaroniero is an espada because of his power, not just because he has metastacia's ability. that said ability alone doesn't consitute his whole power. before he died, he mentioned to rukia that he was the only gillian among the espada, and that the number of hollows he has consumed is over 30,000.

note that when GJ was still an adjuchas, he felt that he wasn't evolving anymore after he consumed his 2000th or 3000th. the same goes for shawlong, d-roy and co.

as such, being a gillian allows aaroniero to still evolve and become stronger by still being able to consume other hollows and their abilities.

but he's dead now. old news.

even older news, grandfisher started out as a normal hollow, yes. he became adjuchas, yes. and he was arrancarized, yes? he wasn't a just a menos. re-read the manga :p

---

it remains to be seen what aizen really has planned re: the espada line-up. it's also about time for him to resurface in next chapter. i'm expecting some, if any, reaction from the ones in charge of las noches (namely aizen, gin, or tousen... or any of the top 3 esp). ichigo and co. just got a major break from the cavalry that arrived. no reaction makes no sense. at least when that happens, we'll hopefully get to see where aizen's plans are headed.
---

this is a prediction thread. of course i'm guessing, but let's try to have a meaningful discussion by keeping our theories/opinions contextualized (meaning based on facts). should it be pure speculation, at least let us on your flow of thought (meaning logic). that's why we're firing away and predicting! your guess is just as good as mine ;)

all that aside, i'm waiting for the next chapter to come out. better be good, KT

darkband
November 19, 2007, 12:50 AM
even older news, grandfisher started out as a normal hollow, yes. he became adjuchas, yes. and he was arrancarized, yes? he wasn't a just a menos. re-read the manga :p

Actually, he told Kon not to compare him to menos, not that he was an Adjuchas.

You're completely right on Aaroneiro though, he is an Espada because of what he is not what he ate. Metastacia wasn't even an Espada. Though Aaronerio is what he eats he didn't eat any Espada as far as we know.


Garganta is the gate that Urahara made to get into Hueco Mundo. I doubt Aizen knows about it, especially if Mayuri can't even make his own gateway to Hueco Mundo.

As for that Urahara didn't make it, he stabilized it so that captain level shinigami and others could pass through. He merely made Soul Society a way through as the Espada can do it automatically. I wonder if a Vizard can just open it like the Espada.

Audition
November 19, 2007, 01:21 AM
I predict that byakuya will counter that amore ..

well i think that he will just close his eyes and attack...

and some scene changes to noitora x kenpachi battle XD

TheChosenOne
November 19, 2007, 01:27 AM
@TheChosenOne >>
Right about Aaroniero there. Not to be confused with Metastacia (the hollow experimented on by Aizen that got Kaien). I'm sure Aaroniero was already stuffed with thousands before feeding on Metastacia, though :)

Recap: Aaroniero was definitely pre-Aizen Espada. And, being the only Gillian among the current Espada, Aaroniero was the only one who had the chance to evolve and become stronger (as compared to the other nine). Unfortunately, the poor dude's dead now. He should've made his fishbowl "ice-proof" :amuse

Since Aaroniero did not have the abiltiy to absorb other hollow's power before metastacia, it is unlikely that he had thousands of hollows absorbed. I think he ate metastacia, got it's ability and constantly abosorbed hollows, When aizen came to Hueco Mundo he prolly gave him the espada rank cuz of the abiltiy and how powerful he had become. Aaroniero said that he joined Aizen cuz that he promised that he would be pain-free.:)


http://read.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/269/003.jpg



Garganta is the gate that Urahara made to get into Hueco Mundo. I doubt Aizen knows about it, especially if Mayuri can't even make his own gateway to Hueco Mundo.

I think Aizen does know how to use the garganta, since tousen was able to do it when he took grimm back to Hueco Mundo.:)


http://read.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/212/001.jpg


It's sad to see that Urohara's replacement (Mayuri) still is nothing considrered to Urohara, to quote Byakuya "an eyesore".:)


Actually, he told Kon not to compare him to menos, not that he was an Adjuchas.

You're completely right on Aaroneiro though, he is an Espada because of what he is not what he ate. Metastacia wasn't even an Espada. Though Aaronerio is what he eats he didn't eat any Espada as far as we know.

Him saying that could mean that he is higher level than Menos, maybe Adjucas (unlikely) who is really weak.:)

Aaroniero would not be an espada had he not absorbed metastacia. When he ate meta, is where he got the ability to absorb. With that power he was able to become one of the espada. :)


http://read.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/267/008.jpg

Neuroff
November 19, 2007, 01:47 AM
As for that Urahara didn't make it, he stabilized it so that captain level shinigami and others could pass through. He merely made Soul Society a way through as the Espada can do it automatically. I wonder if a Vizard can just open it like the Espada.
I guess I should have said the Garganta gate that Urahara made. Urahara is much better with technology than Aizen is. If it took Urahara a whole month to stabilize it, there's no way that Aizen could have done it without attracting attention.
[hr]

Since Aaroniero did not have the abiltiy to absorb other hollow's power before metastacia, it is unlikely that he had thousands of hollows absorbed. I think he ate metastacia, got it's ability and constantly abosorbed hollows, When aizen came to Hueco Mundo he prolly gave him the espada rank cuz of the abiltiy and how powerful he had become. Aaroniero said that he joined Aizen cuz that he promised that he would be pain-free.:)


http://read.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/269/003.jpg

Metastacia died a long time ago. Aaroniero has been absorbing hollows since then. He could easily have been espada way before Aizen got to Hueco Mundo.


I think Aizen does know how to use the garganta, since tousen was able to do it when he took grimm back to Hueco Mundo.:)


http://read.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/212/001.jpg


It's sad to see that Urohara's replacement (Mayuri) still is nothing considrered to Urohara, to quote Byakuya "an eyesore".:)
Tousen only used it AFTER he'd spent time in Hueco Mundo. Learning it from the source and figuring it out on your own are completely different things.


Him saying that could mean that he is higher level than Menos, maybe Adjucas (unlikely) who is really weak.:)
What Grand Fisher said just means that he's stronger than a random garbage Gillian.

TheChosenOne
November 19, 2007, 01:58 AM
Metastacia died a long time ago. Aaroniero has been absorbing hollows since then. He could easily have been espada way before Aizen got to Hueco Mundo.

True since Zomari said that he was an original espada, which could be part of Nnoi and Szayel or some other generation. Aaroniero did say that he joined Aizen cuz he was promised to be pain-free. So that would mean that Aizen created a new espada and let old member join cuz of their power (Like Nnoi and Szayel most prolly Aaroniero). :)


Tousen only used it AFTER he'd spent time in Hueco Mundo. Learning it from the source and figuring it out on your own are completely different things.

That is what I meant by my earlier statement. :)

Agreed :)
Urohara learning and achieving it by himself is much bigger in scale in what Aizen was able to do after he reached Hueco Mundo :)


What Grand Fisher said just means that he's stronger than a random garbage Gillian.

That seems more plausbile since Adjucas being that weak would distort their description of being powerful and smart. :)

Neuroff
November 19, 2007, 02:16 AM
True since Zomari said that he was an original espada, which could be part of Nnoi and Szayel or some other generation. Aaroniero did say that he joined Aizen cuz he was promised to be pain-free. So that would mean that Aizen created a new espada and let old member join cuz of their power (Like Nnoi and Szayel most prolly Aaroniero). :)
I would think that's pretty much what happened. Aizen goes to Hueco Mundo and takes control of the Espada by force, kills the ones who oppose him to show his strength, and then creates his own Espada. It wouldn't be that hard for the Espada to accept because Aizen and the Espada have a common goal, the destruction of Soul Society.

TheChosenOne
November 19, 2007, 02:23 AM
I would think that's pretty much what happened. Aizen goes to Hueco Mundo and takes control of the Espada by force, kills the ones who oppose him to show his strength, and then creates his own Espada. It wouldn't be that hard for the Espada to accept because Aizen and the Espada have a common goal, the destruction of Soul Society.

Agreed:)
Since Aizen rules by fear, it would not be a wrong interpretation if Aizen did forcibly control the espada to further his ambition.:)

I predict byakuya will most likely release shikai followed by bankai where he is forced by Zomari due to the difference in strength, or maybe another ability of brujeria. :)

chrisb3
November 19, 2007, 08:16 AM
My point is that if #9 is an origonal espada, and he gained his power from metastatia... then the espada must have been founded around that time as #9 probally would not have been an espada without that ability.

So around the time Aizen was experimenting with hollows/hybrids, the espada was founded.

Assuming he could enter HM before the SS arc, then I think it's very likely that he founded the espada from natural arrancar (since he couldn't make arrancar at this point).

sythwon
November 19, 2007, 09:46 AM
As for that Urahara didn't make it, he stabilized it so that captain level shinigami and others could pass through. He merely made Soul Society a way through as the Espada can do it automatically. I wonder if a Vizard can just open it like the Espada.


the vaizard most likely to have that ability would be hacchi. he's the barrier/dimension-type guy among them. i'm not sure if other vaizards can open up dimensions (such as the garganta for instance) but i wouldn't be totally surprised if someone other than hacchi could. :)




It's sad to see that Urohara's replacement (Mayuri) still is nothing considrered to Urohara, to quote Byakuya "an eyesore".:)


ye, urahara's definitely still light years ahead than mayuri. not to belittle mayuri though. he's badass in his own right. urahara just has more skillz than his predecessor. and i'm pretty sure sandalwood-hat's bankai is badass wicked too :D

akatsuki27
November 19, 2007, 12:16 PM
ye, urahara's definitely still light years ahead than mayuri. not to belittle mayuri though. he's badass in his own right. urahara just has more skillz than his predecessor. and i'm pretty sure sandalwood-hat's bankai is badass wicked too :D

sandalwood hat sounds lame...call him geta boshi

next chapter i expect some belittleing from byakuya (what a stretch) and some attempts to humble him from le roux....i dont expect byakuya to go bankai in the next chapter maybe in the following one....i do expect however at least some updates on the other two fights

ShaunMati1
November 19, 2007, 01:28 PM
I think we need updates from the other fights....im sure they will goto Mayuri's fight since it was the last one we saw with verbal confrontation. Im sure they will sace the Nnoitora fight with Ken later....that might be the second best fight in HM maybe first ( i liked ichigo and grim fight). As far as byakuya saying the whole swallowing thing to Hana i only suspect that forshadows the ability byak has with the dome and all the swords. Releaving all aspects of defence and murder Zomari. I dont expect his shikai to do anything, i expect him to go straight to bankai....hes not messing with ichigo guys....these are espadas im sure he knows his shikai wont do anything so its not going to be in order from shikai to bankai.

TheChosenOne
November 19, 2007, 04:13 PM
My point is that if #9 is an origonal espada, and he gained his power from metastatia... then the espada must have been founded around that time as #9 probally would not have been an espada without that ability.

So around the time Aizen was experimenting with hollows/hybrids, the espada was founded.

Assuming he could enter HM before the SS arc, then I think it's very likely that he founded the espada from natural arrancar (since he couldn't make arrancar at this point).

I think an orginal espada is someone that is an arrancar not made from Hougyoku. So maybe nnoi, szayel and Nell were part of the espada not from Hougyoku, it most likely that Aaroniero was part of the same clique. :)

Well I dont think Aizen could enter HM before SS. The other captains would have found out what he had been doin. But the power of his sword kind of takes care of that :)


sandalwood hat sounds lame...call him geta boshi

next chapter i expect some belittleing from byakuya (what a stretch) and some attempts to humble him from le roux....i dont expect byakuya to go bankai in the next chapter maybe in the following one....i do expect however at least some updates on the other two fights

I think we wont have any updates of the other fights, till Byakuya's is done. It's the same like SS. After Yamma's fight was done, then Yoruichi's began and finally ended with byakuya and Ichigo. I think Byakuya will most likely release shikai and follow up with bankai on chapter 302. :)

chrisb3
November 19, 2007, 04:42 PM
I think an orginal espada is someone that is an arrancar not made from Hougyoku. So maybe nnoi, szayel and Nell were part of the espada not from Hougyoku, it most likely that Aaroniero was part of the same clique. :)

Origonal means one of the first 10 I think, nnoi/szayel/nell can't be origonal as #9 was the only one left!

TheChosenOne
November 19, 2007, 04:51 PM
Origonal means one of the first 10 I think, nnoi/szayel/nell can't be origonal as #9 was the only one left!

Agreed:)
Original Espada could indeed mean the first group of espada(s) that preceded all others:)

ReyZaBurrel
November 19, 2007, 05:21 PM
I have a feeling that Byakuya is going to do something really awesome but right when he says the command *poof* we change to another fight leaving everyone to wonder what Byakuya has done.

Neuroff
November 19, 2007, 05:41 PM
My point is that if #9 is an origonal espada, and he gained his power from metastatia... then the espada must have been founded around that time as #9 probally would not have been an espada without that ability.

So around the time Aizen was experimenting with hollows/hybrids, the espada was founded.

Assuming he could enter HM before the SS arc, then I think it's very likely that he founded the espada from natural arrancar (since he couldn't make arrancar at this point).
If Aizen had actually been in Hueco Mundo, he would have been experimenting on MENOS, not low level hollows. Aizen's experiments were all created and released in Soul Society and the Real World for a reason. He couldn't just go to Hueco Mundo without people finding out. And Aizen would have to constantly be in Hueco Mundo if he wanted to keep the Espada in line. What would he do if they called captain's meetings while he was gone? He doesn't have a built-in excuse like Ukitake does.

Saifi
November 19, 2007, 05:43 PM
if the # 9 dude was one of the original and he became an espada by joining aizen who would release him from his pain , then i guess there should be no argument that aizen started the whole numeros + espada ranking system, esp since Aaroniero only became an espada after he consumed Metastacia, which is why he had the potential to evolve continously and why he was able to get as strong as the arrancar even though he/it wasn't humanoid!

So Aizen has been working on and ruling HM for much longer than most of us think, i don't see how he would have any problem leaving SS at any time given that he had everyone under his perfect illusion due to his zanpaktou.

Plus seeing as i vaguely recall some of the captains being several hundred yrs old , this could have been going on forever ago!

Nel etc were most likely turned arrancer by Aizen as one of the breakthroughs, Just not created with the help of hogyoku (sp) but to my knowledge it was never said exactly when urahara created the hogyoku and when aizen learned of it ! Heck he could have been turning hollows to arrancar/espada using something similar to hogyoku that he created himself following urahara's rersearch.

Holland
November 19, 2007, 06:23 PM
So, Aizen hasn't been creating them, but working with what they had there until he could create them. So far his creations don't look too successful as they have such odd behavior.

My prediction is that Aizen can't create evil arrancars as the hougyoku mirrors his image as well as his power, he needs Ichigo to touch it at full strength to potentially make the strongest "evil" arrancar.

Saifi
November 19, 2007, 06:38 PM
huh? where are u getting the whole evil/non evil thing not to mention creating them in someones image ?? just wondering if i missed that

TheChosenOne
November 19, 2007, 06:44 PM
Nel etc were most likely turned arrancer by Aizen as one of the breakthroughs, Just not created with the help of hogyoku (sp) but to my knowledge it was never said exactly when urahara created the hogyoku and when aizen learned of it ! Heck he could have been turning hollows to arrancar/espada using something similar to hogyoku that he created himself following urahara's rersearch.

Urohara indeed did create the hougyoku, he was sentenced to exile cuz he created an untraceable gigai which he used to hide the hougyoku.


http://read.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/175/012.jpg

[hr]

So, Aizen hasn't been creating them, but working with what they had there until he could create them. So far his creations don't look too successful as they have such odd behavior.

My prediction is that Aizen can't create evil arrancars as the hougyoku mirrors his image as well as his power, he needs Ichigo to touch it at full strength to potentially make the strongest "evil" arrancar.

Where are you basing this evil arrancar theory. Hollows are born from fear and darkness, thus they are already evil (Nell and other are exception). Aizen does not need Ichigo, unless to study cuz he is a hybrid. Aizen only needs Vasto Lorde. :)

Saifi
November 19, 2007, 06:50 PM
Urohara indeed did create the hougyoku, he was sentenced to exile cuz he created an untraceable gigai which he used to hide the hougyoku.


http://read.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/175/012.jpg


how does that relate to what i said?

TheChosenOne
November 19, 2007, 07:00 PM
how does that relate to what i said?

Sorry bout that, I did not see when, to answer you earlier question, Urohara must have created the hougyoku during or after Aizen's experiments with hollow-hybrids. Aizen prolly learned it after the exile of Urohara, cuz he knew why he was exiled. :)

Holland
November 19, 2007, 07:16 PM
huh? where are u getting the whole evil/non evil thing not to mention creating them in someones image ?? just wondering if i missed that

Just predicting. :)

Neuroff
November 19, 2007, 11:02 PM
if the # 9 dude was one of the original and he became an espada by joining aizen who would release him from his pain , then i guess there should be no argument that aizen started the whole numeros + espada ranking system, esp since Aaroniero only became an espada after he consumed Metastacia, which is why he had the potential to evolve continously and why he was able to get as strong as the arrancar even though he/it wasn't humanoid!

So Aizen has been working on and ruling HM for much longer than most of us think, i don't see how he would have any problem leaving SS at any time given that he had everyone under his perfect illusion due to his zanpaktou.

Plus seeing as i vaguely recall some of the captains being several hundred yrs old , this could have been going on forever ago!

Nel etc were most likely turned arrancer by Aizen as one of the breakthroughs, Just not created with the help of hogyoku (sp) but to my knowledge it was never said exactly when urahara created the hogyoku and when aizen learned of it ! Heck he could have been turning hollows to arrancar/espada using something similar to hogyoku that he created himself following urahara's rersearch.
Aizen had NOTHING to do with Nel becoming an arrancar. Aizen himself says that he made no breakthroughs with shinigami-hollow hybrids. Espada-level arrancar would easily be considered a breakthrough. Aizen obviously had nothing even close to the Hougyoku or he wouldn't even have bothered to steal it.

Hockeychaoz
November 20, 2007, 12:30 AM
Just a little sub-point here:

If we know that breaking hollows masks can turn them into arrancar. What happened with Inoue's brother? Didn't Ichigo break his mask?

And staying on topic:

Byakuya is gonna tottally Pwnzor.

Silhouette
November 20, 2007, 12:56 AM
This discussion is getting way off-topic. Please stick to predictions and discussions of matters related to predictions. Thanks.

akatsuki27
November 20, 2007, 01:31 AM
Just a little sub-point here:

If we know that breaking hollows masks can turn them into arrancar. What happened with Inoue's brother? Didn't Ichigo break his mask?

And staying on topic:

Byakuya is gonna tottally Pwnzor.

its not breaking a hollow's mask that makes them arrancar...its removing it

spectra
November 20, 2007, 03:49 AM
i think las negros was a bit to anxious to release. kuchiki-san didb't even try to touch him yet.. well hopefuly next chapter kuchiki-san will show us some amazing new abilities *eye-candy* *drool* :D

Hyperworm
November 20, 2007, 07:36 AM
This is my first post here.

On-topic:
I expect we're in for another chapter of Zommari+Byakuya. Kubo really seems to be going all out with the fight scenes at the minute. Practically every chapter recently has had at least one new move or release in it, which is excellent, but... I second the idea of taking a break sometime soon to learn more about Aizen's thoughts ._. I get the feeling we won't be seeing something like this for a while though ><
My random guess (sure to be wrong - these threads rarely seem to make accurate predictions!): Since Byakuya is on one leg, and this puts him at a severe handicap movement-wise, to make movement less important he'll have to use Senbonzakura or Senbonzakura Kageyoshi, but Zommari will steal the right of control for one of his hands, and then Zommari will be in control of the blades. A crazy mind-battle will ensue between Byakuya and Zommari where they're trying to move the blades in different directions. XD
Given the trend of dragging on battles, I don't think Zommari+Byakuya will end with 301; I think 302 will be dedicated to this pair as well, and then we'll focus elsewhere.

Off-topic:
Neuroff, "Aizen had NOTHING to do with Nel becoming an arrancar." is disproven by the most recent anime episode at time of posting (if you count that as canon). Dondochakka explicitly claims that Nel received her Arrancar form from Aizen.

Perhaps this might clear things up (and hopefully I'm not confused myself)...
When Aizen was talking about the experiments he performed on Hollows, these were experiments to try to create "Shinigamifications" of Hollows, or "Hollowizations" of Shinigami, whichever way you want to look at it.
Maybe this isn't necessarily the same thing as an Arrancar? Arrancar can just be Hollows which can use Shinigami-like powers, created by ripping off their masks. Aizen's failed experiments were striving for something more higher-level - an entity which is an actual combination of a Shinigami and a Hollow together. Some of these are known as "Vizards". Others are indeed higher-level "Arrancar", created by the Hougyoku.
Aizen could well have been ripping the masks off Hollows and creating Arrancar well before getting the Hougyoku. This doesn't contradict his statement that his experiments to create a Shinigami-Hollow hybrid failed. Given this, we should be able to say he created the Espada, and also that it's always been the case that all members of the Espada are Arrancar.

I'm not altogether convinced by this though ... Isshin referred to the "Arrancar" that came to the real world before Grand Fisher's reappearance as "Arrancar-modoki" = "Arrancar-style" / "psuedo-Arrancar", so I'm not sure we can really call those imperfect ones Arrancar at all - perhaps "Arrancar" is referring just to the Shinigami-Hollow hybrid from a Hollow. In that case could we say that the Espada were "pseudo-Arrancar" created by Aizen? But then wouldn't that make Nel a "pseudo-Arrancar" too?
I'd like to figure this out somehow... (in another thread if we can't continue it here...) ._.

hollowdemon
November 20, 2007, 10:49 AM
yeah its definitely safe to say that this battle isnt going to end in chapter 301
itll just be more of byakuya saying something that triggers zomari to pull out a move and then afterwards he'll reveal that his move doesnt work and uses his new and improved shikai/bankai which will move to mayuri vs szayel fight and a to be continued from the conversation that leads to an attack

oh and what chapter was the one when tousen took GJ back to hueco mundo?
was that when GJ and ichigo fought for the first time?

TheChosenOne
November 20, 2007, 02:04 PM
yeah its definitely safe to say that this battle isnt going to end in chapter 301
itll just be more of byakuya saying something that triggers zomari to pull out a move and then afterwards he'll reveal that his move doesnt work and uses his new and improved shikai/bankai which will move to mayuri vs szayel fight and a to be continued from the conversation that leads to an attack

oh and what chapter was the one when tousen took GJ back to hueco mundo?
was that when GJ and ichigo fought for the first time?

Zomari would be too powerful if he had another ability that trumps his sovereignty. Sovereignty is already the most powerful release ability of an espada I have seen. I think Byakuya will release shikai, and try to counter Zomari's ability with yoruichi's techniques. When he still finds himself shorthanded, he will release bankai :)

hollowdemon
November 20, 2007, 02:17 PM
rukia needs to stop being used by the enemies as how she was in the bounto filler also (how was the bounto arc a filler again? i didnt really notice that) when she was used by that lil fox flower doll thing.
only downfall is that its getting predictable but hopefully KT prove me wrong since i think byakuya will wipe him out in chapter 302 but that could also be the start of mayuri vs szayel battle. So probably in chapter 304 when all 3 battle started already.

Guru981
November 20, 2007, 02:18 PM
can someone open the spoiler pics and summaries page? i got some spoilers

lexx
November 20, 2007, 02:20 PM
Only the manga is considered canon. The anime, with its extra scenes and plot arcs, is not. You'll notice that "filler" arcs tend to have absolutely no effect on long-term plot, ie you could erase them from history and you'd never notice they weren't there.

hollowdemon
November 20, 2007, 02:27 PM
yeah thats another reason why im upset this whole filler about the shinigami (arshido i think?) is going on for the episodes when we probably dont even need it in the long run

Gin/Tousen needs to show up soon !!!!! to prevent the SS captains making any other actions towards las noches. probably in the next 8-10 chapters they might show up
*crosses fingers for Gin*

akatsuki27
November 20, 2007, 02:49 PM
yeah thats another reason why im upset this whole filler about the shinigami (arshido i think?) is going on for the episodes when we probably dont even need it in the long run

Gin/Tousen needs to show up soon !!!!! to prevent the SS captains making any other actions towards las noches. probably in the next 8-10 chapters they might show up
*crosses fingers for Gin*

why Gin?? **obviousness hits me on my face....ow**

all retardedness aside, that would be cool to see the former captains interrupt the show but i dont think they would, namely Gin...he's too easy going, he'd rather watch from a distance....if anything he would go to say hi and have a little chat, not to fight since none of the espada like to talk to him

chrisb3
November 20, 2007, 02:53 PM
Boring Prediction:
Zomari is going to be wiped out with one very powerful attack, just the sheer calmness of Byakua at the moment seems to indicate that he knows exactly what he is going to do, he is going to prove he is well beyond Zomari's level with his most powerful attack. I think Byakua is going to use Bankai, attacking all of Zomari's eyes with millions of blade fragments. I really don't think Zomari can usurp the sovereignty of ALL of those cherry blossoms :) Hanatoru is going to drag Rukia away from the chaos of all that metal flying everywhere.

Fun Prediction: As someone said before, Hanatoru being forced to attack Rukia but healing her instead because of his Shikai just sounds awesome! If that happens, Hanatoru will release the damage onto Zomari... but do no damage as Zomari then explains how he is far more powerful than Aaronero. After this my boring prediction will happen, as noone but Byakua can finish Zomari (unless Kubo really wants Bya to be utterly humbled for some reason).

hollowdemon
November 20, 2007, 03:09 PM
why Gin?? **obviousness hits me on my face....ow**

all retardedness aside, that would be cool to see the former captains interrupt the show but i dont think they would, namely Gin...he's too easy going, he'd rather watch from a distance....if anything he would go to say hi and have a little chat, not to fight since none of the espada like to talk to him
lol
well that probably only happens if matsumoto is there but i dont think he'll only talk with them possibly talk to byakuya and then have a little sword clangin goin on. Remember when ichigo and co. first came to SS and when the gate was opened by jidanbou he was the first one to prevent them from coming in ?
definitely see a possibility for Gin to appear and interrupt one of the captains actions but not interrupting them from killing the espadas probably the following actions after killing the espada(s).
oh and yeah i forgot the espadas doesnt like him except luppi lol poor gin



(unless Kubo really wants Bya to be utterly humbled for some reason).

i doubt that'll happen since byakuya just isnt that type of character but if that does happen to him then hes pretty similar to vegeta in DBZ where he thought being the prince of saiyan makes him the greatest of all and when goku pwned him his ego and pride was crushed.
So i hope nothing like that happens to byakuya but then again it does give byakuya a whole different outlook of his opponents.

ShinigamiAkuma
November 20, 2007, 05:24 PM
WTH is the spoiler thread locked?

I think Bya will go bankai. But I think Mayuri or Kenpachi will get most of the airtime this time.

TheChosenOne
November 20, 2007, 05:27 PM
Remember when ichigo and co. first came to SS and when the gate was opened by jidanbou he was the first one to prevent them from coming in ?

Gin prevented them cuz Aizen asked him too, it was not his choice


http://read.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/175/006.jpg



definitely see a possibility for Gin to appear and interrupt one of the captains actions but not interrupting them from killing the espadas probably the following actions after killing the espada(s).
oh and yeah i forgot the espadas doesnt like him except luppi lol poor ginI don't think anyone will intefere, Kubo is taking this oppurtunity to show the captains improvements from SS, and how they fare against the espada. (In Arrancar arc a lot of people thought that the captains were weaker):)


i doubt that'll happen since byakuya just isnt that type of character but if that does happen to him then hes pretty similar to vegeta in DBZ where he thought being the prince of saiyan makes him the greatest of all and when goku pwned him his ego and pride was crushed.
So i hope nothing like that happens to byakuya but then again it does give byakuya a whole different outlook of his opponents.Agreed :)
Since byakuya already went through being humbled phase with Ichigo, I doubt that it will happen Again:)

hollowdemon
November 20, 2007, 05:46 PM
thats what im saying after eliminating the espadas that each of the captains are facing right now. The SS captains or its sounds more possible that ichigo would still try to pursue aizen since hes still going to keep orihime cuz i dont see him letting her go after all shes a part of his plan and thats when either Gin or Tousen shows up to prevent any of them making any further actions to las noches just like what he did in SS to prevent ichigo from coming in through the gate thats when i smell....similar arcs between the two just like how we see the arc is going but its just a bit mixed up than the SS arc.
Other than being a diehard ichimaru gin fan i definitely see more chance of Gin showing up than tousen plus i think hes weaker than gin and still a good guy at heart anyway.

AngryChubbs
November 20, 2007, 06:11 PM
i disagree...gin has that...."ive jumped overboarded and lost my mind years ago and now im pure evil" smile to him. so im not sure if he is still a good guy at heart.

if anything, i could see tousen switching sides because he isn't with aizen because aizen told him to come, he is there for his own reasons, so he has the most chance of drifting off from aizen and switching sides. (besides, tousen has already attacked one espada)

hollowdemon
November 20, 2007, 06:20 PM
i disagree...gin has that...."ive jumped overboarded and lost my mind years ago and now im pure evil" smile to him. so im not sure if he is still a good guy at heart.

if anything, i could see tousen switching sides because he isn't with aizen because aizen told him to come, he is there for his own reasons, so he has the most chance of drifting off from aizen and switching sides. (besides, tousen has already attacked one espada)

i definitely agree with that thats why i was referring to tousen not gin :)

chegra
November 20, 2007, 06:33 PM
Forgot all those people only one person I want to see fight is kenpachi.

hollowdemon
November 20, 2007, 06:36 PM
which hopefully be shown in the next chapter rather than mayuri vs szayel right? only reason why i would want mayuri vs szayel to show in the next chapter is for mayuri to finally kill szayel cuz hes been alive for too long now and its time for him to die but i wouldnt mind at all if kubo decides to show kenpachi vs nnoitra next :)

ShinigamiAkuma
November 20, 2007, 06:37 PM
Gin has a heart I still believe, no doubt he holds big-tits in his heart thats why he decided to not pierce her sword that time. And when he said "i wish u could have held on a bit longer" to Matsumoto, I believe it was his true words... There's just something about Gin that spells betrayal to Aizen

hollowdemon
November 20, 2007, 06:44 PM
thats definitely what i WANT to believe as a diehard gin fan but something about him tells me that in the end he'll show a good in him while taking an attack that'll cost his life (possibly by aizen how dramatic would that be ?) and i can see that happening cuz KT is just full of drama twist that he can slip in and make us shocked. Then again Gin and Aizen seems like theyre BFF but its probably either going to be ;
a) gin at one point betrays and shows that hes actually good
b) tousen at one point betrays and shows that hes actually good
c) both of them reveals that its actually yamamoto's plan to have both of them in the plan with aizen and just stab him in the back

i dont see prediction C happening but i hope either A or B comes true..well mostly A :)

TheChosenOne
November 20, 2007, 07:37 PM
Gin has a heart I still believe, no doubt he holds big-tits in his heart thats why he decided to not pierce her sword that time. And when he said "i wish u could have held on a bit longer" to Matsumoto, I believe it was his true words... There's just something about Gin that spells betrayal to Aizen

I doubt gin would betray Aizen, he has been with Aizen for too long. He was a lieutenant for Aizen for a long time. Aizen believes in Gin even when Hinamori was his lieutenant .:)

I think Byakuya will release Shikai to counter the ability of Zomari's release, Hana will likely heal Rukia. I hope a glimpse of Kenpachi and Nnoi fight is shown next week :)

hollowdemon
November 20, 2007, 07:43 PM
when was Gin a lieutenant for aizen?
was this when renji and rukia was still in shinigami training school (ya kno that whole training process)

TheChosenOne
November 20, 2007, 07:54 PM
when was Gin a lieutenant for aizen?
was this when renji and rukia was still in shinigami training school (ya kno that whole training process)

Gin was a lieutenant for Aizen before he became a captain. This happened when Kira, Hinamori, Renji and Rukia was in training.:)

I wonder if Kenpachi knows his swords name by now, enough time has passed and he knows that he has to fight together to win. I hope he reveals something about his power next chapter. :)

hollowdemon
November 20, 2007, 07:57 PM
yeah thats what i thought....cuz i remembered Gin's clothes a little different...thats BFF for Gin adn Aizen for you lol :p

its most likely going to be a scene of kenpachi seeing and receiving nnoitra's attacks from his release and then jst smiles it off saying "is that all you got? what a waste of time" like how kenpachi is in every battle hes been in and afterwards showing his shikai and/or bankai and just completely pwns nnoitra
i cross finger for kenpachi vs nnoitra instead of byakuya in the next chapter (sry byakuya:( )

KyleUchiha
November 20, 2007, 08:20 PM
I doubt gin would betray Aizen, he has been with Aizen for too long. He was a lieutenant for Aizen for a long time. Aizen believes in Gin even when Hinamori was his lieutenant .:)

I think Byakuya will release Shikai to counter the ability of Zomari's release, Hana will likely heal Rukia. I hope a glimpse of Kenpachi and Nnoi fight is shown next week :)

Well, we don't entirely know why he is sticking with Aizen. Gin, good or bad, is a very sneaky fellow. I'm wondering why Aizen even trusts him.

But I agree, that Byakuya will release his Shikai(not Bankai) and attack Zomari. I also wouldn't be surprised if Hana has to do something that involves a little more than just healing.

Somehow, I don't think Kenpachi and Nnoitra will be shown this week, or at least not until Byakuya's fight is finished.

Neuroff
November 20, 2007, 08:20 PM
Off-topic:
Neuroff, "Aizen had NOTHING to do with Nel becoming an arrancar." is disproven by the most recent anime episode at time of posting (if you count that as canon). Dondochakka explicitly claims that Nel received her Arrancar form from Aizen.
Using a filler episode as evidence is laughable. It is a fact that Nel became an arrancar before Aizen had possession of the Hougyoku.


Perhaps this might clear things up (and hopefully I'm not confused myself)...
When Aizen was talking about the experiments he performed on Hollows, these were experiments to try to create "Shinigamifications" of Hollows, or "Hollowizations" of Shinigami, whichever way you want to look at it.
Maybe this isn't necessarily the same thing as an Arrancar? Arrancar can just be Hollows which can use Shinigami-like powers, created by ripping off their masks. Aizen's failed experiments were striving for something more higher-level - an entity which is an actual combination of a Shinigami and a Hollow together. Some of these are known as "Vizards". Others are indeed higher-level "Arrancar", created by the Hougyoku.
Aizen could well have been ripping the masks off Hollows and creating Arrancar well before getting the Hougyoku. This doesn't contradict his statement that his experiments to create a Shinigami-Hollow hybrid failed. Given this, we should be able to say he created the Espada, and also that it's always been the case that all members of the Espada are Arrancar.
Arrancar are exactly the shinigami-hollows that Aizen was trying to make but failed at until he obtained the Hougyoku. Every single espada is the real thing, which Aizen didn't even come close to until recently.


I'm not altogether convinced by this though ... Isshin referred to the "Arrancar" that came to the real world before Grand Fisher's reappearance as "Arrancar-modoki" = "Arrancar-style" / "psuedo-Arrancar", so I'm not sure we can really call those imperfect ones Arrancar at all - perhaps "Arrancar" is referring just to the Shinigami-Hollow hybrid from a Hollow. In that case could we say that the Espada were "pseudo-Arrancar" created by Aizen? But then wouldn't that make Nel a "pseudo-Arrancar" too?
I'd like to figure this out somehow... (in another thread if we can't continue it here...) ._.
Grand Fisher was a pseudo-Arrancar because he was garbage. He didn't even have a real arrancar release, all he could do was make himself larger. In chapter 191 when Ulquiorra and Yami come, they call them "completed" arrancar. The espada are all true arrancar, none of them are like Grand Fisher.

TheChosenOne
November 20, 2007, 08:25 PM
Well, we don't entirely know why he is sticking with Aizen. Gin, good or bad, is a very sneaky fellow. I'm wondering why Aizen even trusts him.

But I agree, that Byakuya will release his Shikai(not Bankai) and attack Zomari. I also wouldn't be surprised if Hana has to do something that involves a little more than just healing.

Somehow, I don't think Kenpachi and Nnoitra will be shown this week, or at least not until Byakuya's fight is finished.

I wonder what Hana's zanpak ability is, His ability is only shown in the filler. So maybe it could be different in the manga or Kubo will just adopt the ability. :)

hollowdemon
November 20, 2007, 08:26 PM
i know Gin wont appear in the next chapter but at one point in the future chapters he WILL as a diehard gin fan i have a gut feeling he will. After the 3 battles that is and i agree we still dont know the past of Gin since it seems that only matsumoto only knows what went on with Gin in his past and himself. He probably was a good person that went bad not by a choice but by force but he doesnt show it since he's always next to aizen.

Neuroff
November 20, 2007, 08:29 PM
I wonder what Hana's zanpak ability is, His ability is only shown in the filler. So maybe it could be different in the manga or Kubo will just adopt the ability. :)
That ability isn't filler, it's something Kubo actually wrote in the extra pages that come out with each volume. They actually take a lot of the shinigami cups from omakes or extra pages.

hollowdemon
November 20, 2007, 08:33 PM
it was shown in the filler where he was with ayasegawa facing that menos grande when it appeared

Neuroff
November 20, 2007, 08:42 PM
It doesn't matter whether the episode was filler or not because they took the ability from the manga.

hollowdemon
November 20, 2007, 08:49 PM
yeah my point exactly it was an ability nonetheless

TheChosenOne
November 20, 2007, 10:38 PM
That ability isn't filler, it's something Kubo actually wrote in the extra pages that come out with each volume. They actually take a lot of the shinigami cups from omakes or extra pages.

Thanks for that, I did not know that Kubo actually ideas contributed to fillers and omakes.

I predict that Byakuya will release Shikai, Zomari countering it and the chapter ending with Byakuya saying bankai. I also think Rukia will be taken away from the battle and healed somewhere safe by Hanatarou :)

Hockeychaoz
November 20, 2007, 10:39 PM
Using a filler episode as evidence is laughable. It is a fact that Nel became an arrancar before Aizen had possession of the Hougyoku.


Actually, the "filler" happening right now was written by KT. It was supposed to go in the Manga but it didn't.

At least that's what I've been lead to believe.

So if Nell has said in the anime that she became an arrancar through Aizen, we can trust it most likely.

Normally, I'd agree with you though. 99% of the time, filler has no standing on manga.
[hr]

Thanks for that, I did not know that Kubo actually ideas contributed to fillers and omakes.

I predict that Byakuya will release Shikai, Zomari countering it and the chapter ending with Byakuya saying bankai. I also think Rukia will be taken away from the battle and healed somewhere safe by Hanatarou :)

I figure that Hanatarou is gonna heal Rukia with his Zanpaktou, shoot the energy thing at 7, distracting him. Giving Byakuya a chance to do something.

Ichigo
November 20, 2007, 10:41 PM
ukitake rocks the horn

TheChosenOne
November 20, 2007, 11:09 PM
I figure that Hanatarou is gonna heal Rukia with his Zanpaktou, shoot the energy thing at 7, distracting him. Giving Byakuya a chance to do something.

I hope Rukia get's healed as well, I have no idea how she is still alive, buy anyway, I think Byakuya will release shikai, hope we see a glimpse of the other fights :)

Neuroff
November 20, 2007, 11:34 PM
Actually, the "filler" happening right now was written by KT. It was supposed to go in the Manga but it didn't.

At least that's what I've been lead to believe.

So if Nell has said in the anime that she became an arrancar through Aizen, we can trust it most likely.

Normally, I'd agree with you though. 99% of the time, filler has no standing on manga.
Where exactly did you see that? If Kubo actually wrote it, he was either on crack or didn't write that line. There is no way Nel could have been made an arrancar by Aizen when she's been an arrancar for years.

Saifi
November 20, 2007, 11:49 PM
dude , seriously stop being difficult , # 9 dude was the LAST of the origional espada and he WAS made espada by aizen , nel has to be made an espada after him -_- , so aizen could have made her an espada too.

Your whole argument insistence is based on the hogyoku which i dont think is the only way to make arrancar/espada just the best/fastest one

Neuroff
November 20, 2007, 11:55 PM
dude , seriously stop being difficult , # 9 dude was the LAST of the origional espada and he WAS made espada by aizen , nel has to be made an espada after him -_- , so aizen could have made her an espada too.

Your whole argument insistence is based on the hogyoku which i dont think is the only way to make arrancar/espada just the best/fastest one
The Hougyoku is the ONLY way Aizen ever made an arrancar.

On pages 11-12 of chapter 175 he says, "I focused on Shinigami-Hollows, and... I had successfully created several hollows that were close to shinigami. Hollows that could hide their spiritual pressure, a hollow that could make soul cutters disappear... and even fuse with shinigami... but all of them were trash, and not worthy of being called breakthroughs." Other researchers are bound by stupidity and morality... so no one has ever made any sort of breakthrough either. No one, except Urahara Kisuke. He created a substance that reacts beyond the conventional physics of Soul Society... it can instantly dissolve the barrier between hollow and shinigami. The name of that substance is 'Hougyoku.'"

He is saying he had made only TRASH, AFTER Nel, Nnoitra, and Szayel Aporro, Aaroniero, and others have already been arrancar for years. I find it ridiculous that you could actually believe that a majority of the espada could be considered trash.

TheChosenOne
November 20, 2007, 11:56 PM
dude , seriously stop being difficult , # 9 dude was the LAST of the origional espada and he WAS made espada by aizen , nel has to be made an espada after him -_- , so aizen could have made her an espada too.

Your whole argument insistence is based on the hogyoku which i dont think is the only way to make arrancar/espada just the best/fastest one

Actually metastacia was made by Aizen, Aaroniero was not. The only thing Aaroniero did was eat metastacia and gained it's ability.:)

The hougyoku is the only way for Aizen to make arrancar, cuz he failed every other way. I don't think Nell being the espada is the argument, I think it's her being an arrancar. Since she was shown to be an espada as well as an Arrancar before Aizen showing up in Hueco Mundo, I believe she became arrancar by herself, (her being part of the espada, it's up in the air) :)

Page 11 of Chapter 175.

http://read.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/175/011.jpg


Page 12 of Chapter 175

http://read.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/175/012.jpg


I hope next chapter we see some more abilites of Zomari, and byakuya releasing shikai and hopefully ending the chapter with Bankai. :)

chegra
November 21, 2007, 04:54 AM
You know what would be interesting, is if Tousen was behind this hold thing.
And when are the vizards going to get to show what they are made of.

But I think the 301, Byakuya Kuchiki is use some kinda self destructive stuff. That would
kill the guy he is fighting. Then he is ask his underling to heal him and ryukia.

hollowdemon
November 21, 2007, 09:44 AM
the whole conflict of nel being an espada before or after aizen shouldn't even be brought up. Original espada were the ones that were alive and strongest just like that guy that fought ichigo the privaron espada they were ones that were on top before the whole new 1-10 espada were created and helped by aizen where they became stronger and the previous espadas were obsolete. It leads me to believe that before aizen even came to las noches these previous espadas were alive and running the show before stark, halibel, and etc. The original ones that were taken into the new rankings were just the ones that aizen see as a potential to fill in the spot until he can find all of the vasto lordes.

Hyperworm
November 21, 2007, 01:49 PM
Where exactly did you see that?Perhaps Hockeychaoz is referring to this quote by Kubo-san at the back of vol.29?:
'These are design materials I made for the "Forest of Menos" arc, an original story for the TV anime version of BLEACH. Ashido is a character I was unable to put into the original work due to issues of timing, so I'm glad I could put him in.'
But this is only referring to Ashido, not the whole story itself... so unless Kubo-san has made other comments about this upcoming arc, I'm not sure we can say he wrote the story. He definitely designed Ashido and a number of pieces of scenery though.


He is saying he had made only TRASH, AFTER Nel, Nnoitra, and Szayel Aporro, Aaroniero, and others have already been arrancar for years. I find it ridiculous that you could actually believe that a majority of the espada could be considered trash.Why? This is Aizen we're talking about. I expect he could quite easily describe the entire current Espada as trash in comparison to his final goals (Wonderweiss lurks in the background...). The first-generation ones are certainly not above his criticism.
But anyway, my argument doesn't require Nel&co to be "trash". He was talking about creating a more definite unification of Hollow and Shinigami in that speech, using new methods other than pulling masks off Hollows. His attempts resulted in nothing but trash (i.e. worse than anything he had made before. You can't say Metastacia was a better creation than Nel).
He mentioned "Hollowization of a Shinigami" as one of his goals (the first thing he said, in fact). I think from this it's easy to come to the conclusion that the things he was talking about achieving, the things which he was failing at, are dealing with more than creating mere basic Arrancar. What about the possibility that Aizen might have been aiming to give himself a Hollowization, after doing this research?
Finally, he could easily have created Arrancar. All you need to do to do so is to remove the mask from a Hollow. It's simple to do this (Hitsugaya mentions you can even do it with Hollow that are not Menos, though you do need to use Menos to get anything decent). Why would he have been failing at his experiments so often if Arrancar form is all he was striving for?

(hopes he doesn't get yelled at for continuing off-topic discussion T_T
maybe mods should consider splitting these posts into a new Biblioteca thread? :/)

Neuroff
November 21, 2007, 02:15 PM
Why? This is Aizen we're talking about. I expect he could quite easily describe the entire current Espada as trash in comparison to his final goals (Wonderweiss lurks in the background...). The first-generation ones are certainly not above his criticism.
Wonderweiss is hardly perfect. I'm sure he's stronger than at least a few espada, but there's a reason he didn't replace anyone.


But anyway, my argument doesn't require Nel&co to be "trash". He was talking about creating a more definite unification of Hollow and Shinigami in that speech, using new methods other than pulling masks off Hollows. His attempts resulted in nothing but trash (i.e. worse than anything he had made before. You can't say Metastacia was a better creation than Nel).
I really doubt that's what he was trying to do. He talks about shinigami-hollows (arrancar), and hollow-shinigami(vizard), not anything else. Making hollows that could hide their reiatsu, etc. was just his way of trying to simulate shinigami abilities. Urahara reached Aizen's goal by making a device that does the same thing as removing a hollow's mask. What makes you think Aizen was trying to do anything different?


He mentioned "Hollowization of a Shinigami" as one of his goals (the first thing he said, in fact). I think from this it's easy to come to the conclusion that the things he was talking about achieving, the things which he was failing at, are dealing with more than creating mere basic Arrancar. What about the possibility that Aizen might have been aiming to give himself a Hollowization, after doing this research?
I'm sure that was his eventual goal, but his first goal was to create an arrancar. There is no way he wouldn't consider creating an espada a breakthrough in his research.


Finally, he could easily have created Arrancar. All you need to do to do so is to remove the mask from a Hollow. It's simple to do this (Hitsugaya mentions you can even do it with Hollow that are not Menos, though you do need to use Menos to get anything decent). Why would he have been failing at his experiments so often if Arrancar form is all he was striving for?
If Aizen had espada under him, he easily could have done much better experiments. He could study their reiatsu, zanpakutous, etc. to see what made them what they are. He would know exactly what shinigami aspects an arrancar takes when they remove their mask. He also easily could have made Metastacia a better hybrid by removing its mask. All Aizen wanted was a test subject that he could use to observe a shinigami-hollow, so it makes no sense for him to be making this trash when he had espada in Hueco Mundo.

TheChosenOne
November 21, 2007, 10:32 PM
I predict Zomari revealing something, maybe a new ability or maybe he will do the sovereignty thing again, I hope byakuya does not cut himself to pieces. I also hope some glimpse of Kenpachi is shown. I am growing impatient with his fight :)

hollowdemon
November 23, 2007, 09:41 AM
prediction from moi?
zomari just blinded with the fact that byakuya is just underestimating him and waiting for him to reveal his moves so he can see an opportunity and weakness which will cause him to deliver a killer blow but i really HOPE for a death blow since zomari isnt such an interesting espada to me. Szayel is really annoying but i found him more interesting than zomari for some reason (maybe cuz hes sick and demented haha :p )

TheChosenOne
November 23, 2007, 09:03 PM
I think Byakuya will most likely release shikai and follow it with bankai. I think Rukia will get healed by Hana. Maybe we might see something from the other captains. :)

drakend
November 24, 2007, 05:03 AM
Hey guys in the cover page who is the guy on the right? The one with the red eyes I mean... I think perhaps he's from another manga, am i wrong?

kunai-knight
November 24, 2007, 08:50 AM
No idea. Was wondering the same thing though. This chapter was amazing though. When he dropped his sword and said bankai...awesome!!! :)

hollowdemon
November 24, 2007, 09:16 AM
byakuya totally kicks ass :) and we definitely saw that coming. He wouldn't just tear his tendon and left arm ( or sliced ) without a repercussion coming towards zomari's weird sick ass. Zomari was too confident in the first place with his pumpkin release looking self and thats what he deserved. A good old "bankai....senbonzakura kageyoshi" but the Goukei part...does that mean explosion ?? cuz thats whats shown in the end and i WISH zomari is dead but a part of me is telling me hes not :(

an early part of the chapter after he sliced his left arm he did "Hadou no ichi shou (Way of destruction No.1 Thrust) " to hit rukia...why did he do that?

ShinigamiAkuma
November 24, 2007, 09:59 AM
I'm pretty sure Zomari is dead, I never expected the fight to last long, it's gunna be total pwnage from Bya. Besides if it drags any longer, it'll look bad on Bya's part fro struggling against a #7... IMO I think Bya should have taken on #5 cos Bya is stronger than Kenpachi. But anywho, I think Kenpachi will win too! Then I sense EITHER Ulqy to comeback or Halleberry to interupt (presuming she's still watching). I wonder if other captains are here, cos it maybe a full scale attack. Maybe Ukitake and Shinsiu take on Aizen directly.

drakend
November 24, 2007, 10:15 AM
I'm pretty sure Zomari is dead, I never expected the fight to last long, it's gunna be total pwnage from Bya. Besides if it drags any longer, it'll look bad on Bya's part fro struggling against a #7... IMO I think Bya should have taken on #5 cos Bya is stronger than Kenpachi. But anywho, I think Kenpachi will win too! Then I sense EITHER Ulqy to comeback or Halleberry to interupt (presuming she's still watching). I wonder if other captains are here, cos it maybe a full scale attack. Maybe Ukitake and Shinsiu take on Aizen directly.
Who is Halleberry? Ichigo and Halibel's daughter? :D

hollowdemon
November 24, 2007, 10:32 AM
I think Bya should have taken on #5 cos Bya is stronger than Kenpachi. But anywho, I think Kenpachi will win too! Then I sense EITHER Ulqy to comeback or Halleberry to interupt (presuming she's still watching). I wonder if other captains are here, cos it maybe a full scale attack. Maybe Ukitake and Shinsiu take on Aizen directly.


Between both of them which happens to be my favorite character id give a wild prediction and say that kenpachi is actually stronger than byakuya its just that kenpachi was never noticed cuz of his raw and wild style of fighting also he doesnt have what other captains have (bankai/shikai) but regardless it wont matter to me :)
lol halleberry hahaha:D
i doubt shes going to make any moves if anything she'll just come down to say something to kenpachi and/or whoever else decides to show up to give them a warning that whatever their doing is useless. If nnoitra is still alive i believe shes the one whos going to kill him cuz if ulquiorra is out from the dimension (im sry i keep forgettin the name :s ) i dont see him killing nnoitra since i dont see a reason why. At least halibel has a reason since she doesnt like nnoitra at all.

The idea of ukitake and shunsui just charging straight at aizen is just ludicrous and im not down with it cuz if they do happen to do that then its more weak points that the SS is revealing and plus i dont wanna see ukitake and shunsui go down like that :p its usually the strategy to take down the head of the army to leave the remaining soldiers crumble but not in this situation.
Prefer not cuz if they do though just a huge blow in the whole plot of the story :(

ShinigamiAkuma
November 24, 2007, 11:10 AM
OK, I rather see Ukitake and Shinsui fight, possibly the old geezer... remake of the Yamiji scene?

But anyways, Halleberry is watching, so I wonder what she will do. My guess she is #3, succeeding rank from nel as she was her fraccion.

I somehow think Aizen predicted this, that's why he said everyone should act calm and stay in their post (durin the tea meeting)... but other espada didnt follow orders.

I think Aizen forseen this will happen, get rid of the old espadas and replace with the new arrancars such as WW... he basically saw GJ as useless anyway... probably anyone below #4 are worthless

hollowdemon
November 24, 2007, 11:13 AM
if the situation was about the espadas getting wiped out that are below #4 then...
where would the #1-4 rank if they bring in vasto lorde or put wonderwice in the mix ??
Would 1-4 still hold theyre spot while the vasto lorde just fills out 5-10 ?

i wouldnt mind at all about shunsui and ukitake fighting but that just proves that this is definitely a mirror of the SS scene's and there better be a good explanation from either aizen/gin/tousen for making this same exact move from the one in SS

ShinigamiAkuma
November 24, 2007, 11:17 AM
I think 1-4 are true vastoo, so no matter how mature the hyogoku is, the arrancars produced are all on similar level as the original vastoo anyway.. otherwise the power difference will be too huge it may become stupid because they could topple Aizen

hollowdemon
November 24, 2007, 11:20 AM
so im guessing wonderwice would fit in at 10 since im still not clarified if he is just an espada or a vasto lorde.
Wonderwice probably would give more competition to byakuya in this chapter than zomari by my opinion. Zomari just looks ridiculous with his release...like a retarded pumpkin boogeyman (sry to the zomari lovers) lol
Then that supports my point even stronger. Halibel, stark, old man espada and ulquiorra wont make any pointless moves in this espada battles thats going on. They'll just simply obey orders and follow according to plan until the next big battles.

ShinigamiAkuma
November 24, 2007, 01:16 PM
Yup, ALL the releases sux so far..Zomari's is just retarded, he was better of in normal form with his twin sonido. Seems to me once they release they never sonido, shame! They should get stronger not weak as shit, like GJ... I believe Ulqy and above have human releases cos vastoo have human form.

Aonsaithya
November 24, 2007, 02:02 PM
Anyone else concerned about Ichigo's bankai's main ability; speed? He was insanely quick in the beginning of his fight with Byukaya, but after that Yammi is pretty much the only one who has not been equal to bankai-Ichigo's speed. Kariya could keep up easily, Grimmjow had no trouble either, and so on. Is there anyone who can't keep up now? Even that privaron espada he fought managed to outmaneuver him and appear behind after Ichigo had released bankai.

Travis
November 24, 2007, 03:20 PM
Yeah they have really changed Ichigo's speed advantage to almost none at all. Probably because if he were faster than all of his opponents he would easily win as long as he could cut them. It also looks like from this fight that Byakuya could outmaneuver Ichigo if they fought again. Although I wonder if Ichigo would be faster than Zomari. Zomari can make clones from his speed, while Ichigo can't. Although even though he had 5 clones he couldn't really injure Byakuya.

Sidenote. Halleberry is I guess a nickname for Halibel based on the famous african-american actress Halle Berry. She's really hot, just like Halibel appears to be.

TheChosenOne
November 24, 2007, 03:24 PM
Anyone else concerned about Ichigo's bankai's main ability; speed? He was insanely quick in the beginning of his fight with Byukaya, but after that Yammi is pretty much the only one who has not been equal to bankai-Ichigo's speed. Kariya could keep up easily, Grimmjow had no trouble either, and so on. Is there anyone who can't keep up now? Even that privaron espada he fought managed to outmaneuver him and appear behind after Ichigo had released bankai.

Ichigo's bankai was more than enough to handle Dordoini. I think bankai is not going to be his focus, he will continue to increase in hollow powers. Which could mean even greater speed and power. :)

I can't believe that Byakuya released bankai before Shikai, I thought the latter was a prerequisite. Is goukei the name of the attack (the sphere) within bankai :)

ShinigamiAkuma
November 24, 2007, 03:44 PM
Shikai is useless for any one now, everyone instantly goes bankai.... I think Byakuya wasn't showing his full potential against Ichigo, because he never used Yoruichi technique nor the goukei bankai (does that mean he has 4 stages). Also, Byakuya seems to be holding back against ichigo because he may have been moved by Renji's and Ichigo's action to save Rukia, and at the time he may have accepted their actions..

Ichigo could well make clones of himself like there was about 20 images of Ichigo against Byakuya. His bankai is more of Getsuga Tenshou than speed now, tho I wish he had more stages.

TheChosenOne
November 24, 2007, 03:53 PM
I think Byakuya prolly learned the new techniques after the fight with Ichigo, the techniques from Yoruichi he could have learned cuz he was not fast as Ichigo, which left him open. The Gokei was maybe cuz Ichigo defeated all of his bankai's blades :)

I also want Ichigo do have stages for bankai, so he could have something to fall back on. His black bankai needs to be more advanced, battle wise :)

gdupninja
November 24, 2007, 04:09 PM
Damn I hope Hanatarou is alright cuz he got slashed. Anyway I liked the last chapter. Byakuya was backing up his trash talk pretty well. And that french guy thought he had him killed. What a moron.

TheChosenOne
November 24, 2007, 04:28 PM
I think that's where Byakuya excels, Zomari thought he was powerful and let it go to his head, while Byakuya would have stayed calm and thought of some countermoves. I hope Hana is okay, wonder if Rukia will be healed :)

Travis
November 24, 2007, 06:32 PM
How overpowered is Zomari's ability though? I mean if he would have just aimed it at Byakuya's head in the first instance, the entire fight would have been over. Or even if he used all the front of his eyes to control Byakuya's limbs and body.

It's just the good guys have to win. If Zomari was taking the fight seriously he would have done that, and it would have been bad guy wins.

ShinigamiAkuma
November 24, 2007, 07:48 PM
So what you're sayin is Zomari could well control Aizen as well... so there must be a flaw in his technique, like he cant control someones mind who is concious or has higher power

Travis
November 24, 2007, 07:52 PM
So what you're sayin is Zomari could well control Aizen as well... so there must be a flaw in his technique, like he cant control someones mind who is concious or has higher power

Well what makes you think he would ever see Aizen. Aizen's hypnosis would screw with his eyes ability. Also its highly likely Aizen's faster than anyone in Heuco Mundo right now.

Plus Aizen could probably defeat all of the espada before they release (Like one shotting them, just like he did Hitsugaya). Even then all's he has to do is release his shikai before Zomari releases to his true form.

murani-san
November 24, 2007, 11:41 PM
Zomari overestimated his power and thought he could play with Byakuya, simple as that.

I really want to see that Kurotuschi fight, the guy is sadistic but funny at the same time. He's made some upgrades and he'll be able to out think his espada counterpoint.

TheChosenOne
November 24, 2007, 11:59 PM
i think Zomari could only control people that are around the same power level as him. Cuz otherwise his release should be the strongest in the espada. :)

I think the reason he chose not to kill bya is to tease and show his power through Rukia. :)

flushfire
November 25, 2007, 01:30 AM
i was asking the whole time i was reading "why doesn't he just take control of the head?"

i hope there's at least a quarter page explanation as to why it never happened.

assalane
November 25, 2007, 04:05 AM
I think he wanted byakuya to acknowledge his power, or to see him start to panic. I would have done the same mistake if someone was goading me.

drakend
November 25, 2007, 05:06 AM
i was asking the whole time i was reading "why doesn't he just take control of the head?"

i hope there's at least a quarter page explanation as to why it never happened.
Your point is valid: if Zomari took control of Byakuya's head then the fight would have ended before it would have started. I think this kind of power is way too overkill if it hasn't some limitations: for example it doesn't make sense for Zomari being the seventh Espada while he could take control of Aizen's head. A good explanation may be: the higher reiatsu the enemy has, the harder is to take control of his limbs and taking control of an arm is way simpler than taking control than a head. It isn't stated anywhere in the manga, but it's a good explanation to make plausible for Zomari being a mere seventh Espada.

squidbreath
November 25, 2007, 05:28 AM
^^^^Thx, you got a nice explanation there :eyeroll

I'm still waiting for Kenpachi’s match with the 5th Espada…Though that'll probably be shown last. Hopefully, the exchanges made between the 2 mad scientists would be pretty interesting/funny.

drakend
November 25, 2007, 06:01 AM
^^^^Thx, you got a nice explanation there :eyeroll

Why the "eyeroll" emoticon? I know my explanation may suck but I was trying to make things a little more "logical", where logical is referred to bleachverse and not our one of course.
I noticed that in Bleach there are some huge plot-holes: just to make an example... do you remember the massacre Yammi made the time he went in the real world in order to kill Ichigo? No mention it was made about that anymore in the manga or in the anime, but you would except much more clamor around an event like that. So we have three options:
1) we accept the plot holes without doing nothing.
2) we accept the plot holes trying to explain them in some reasonable way.
3) we stop reading Bleach.

I refuse 3) for default, but I don't like accepting things without thinking on them so I'm for the 2)! :)

hollowdemon
November 25, 2007, 11:47 AM
Shikai is useless for any one now, everyone instantly goes bankai.... I think Byakuya wasn't showing his full potential against Ichigo, because he never used Yoruichi technique nor the goukei bankai (does that mean he has 4 stages). Also, Byakuya seems to be holding back against ichigo because he may have been moved by Renji's and Ichigo's action to save Rukia, and at the time he may have accepted their actions..

Ichigo could well make clones of himself like there was about 20 images of Ichigo against Byakuya. His bankai is more of Getsuga Tenshou than speed now, tho I wish he had more stages.

Yeah i agree, byakuya could've kept going even after the mask was ripped off by ichigo. Its true that byakuya was outmatched when ichigo had the mask on but afterwards if he wanted to he would've kept goin and fought him to a point where i think byakuya would've won if the matched continued.
Im disappinted that his speed seems like a normal speed to the enemies hes encountering so far which leads me to believe that he'll try to learn more moves/techniques just like byakuya did with his goukei senbonzakura. :tem


Your point is valid: if Zomari took control of Byakuya's head then the fight would have ended before it would have started. I think this kind of power is way too overkill if it hasn't some limitations: for example it doesn't make sense for Zomari being the seventh Espada while he could take control of Aizen's head. A good explanation may be: the higher reiatsu the enemy has, the harder is to take control of his limbs and taking control of an arm is way simpler than taking control than a head. It isn't stated anywhere in the manga, but it's a good explanation to make plausible for Zomari being a mere seventh Espada

The explanation actually sounds reasonable since theres no way with JUST a mind controlling ability he would be able to beat aizen. And plus knowing aizen he already knows what to do if just in case zomari tries to do something foolish like that. Why would he be the leader of las noches if an espada can just take him down with something so silly :p

murani-san
November 25, 2007, 09:54 PM
Aizen probably did a demonstration of power to the espada and in doing so gained the upperhand on them the same way he did all the captains of the Gotei 13. So that would mean Zomari wouldn't have the full strength of his zanpaktou to use against Aizen.

Hockeychaoz
November 25, 2007, 10:29 PM
I got money saying that when Bya opened up the wall of Senbonzakura to taunt him one last time, he got taken over.

I don't know where it would head after that, but I don't wanna see an Espada die in 2 chaps basically.

Neuroff
November 26, 2007, 12:33 AM
Yeah i agree, byakuya could've kept going even after the mask was ripped off by ichigo. Its true that byakuya was outmatched when ichigo had the mask on but afterwards if he wanted to he would've kept goin and fought him to a point where i think byakuya would've won if the matched continued.
Im disappinted that his speed seems like a normal speed to the enemies hes encountering so far which leads me to believe that he'll try to learn more moves/techniques just like byakuya did with his goukei senbonzakura. :tem
Byakuya's zanpakutou BROKE, he wasn't going to be able to do crap. Ichigo had enough energy to save Renji later, he easily had enough to slash a defenseless Byakuya.


I got money saying that when Bya opened up the wall of Senbonzakura to taunt him one last time, he got taken over.

I don't know where it would head after that, but I don't wanna see an Espada die in 2 chaps basically.
I got money on Zommari dying in the next chapter. If Byakuya was taken over, Senbonzakura wouldn't have just made a huge attack on Zommari.

leoliox
November 26, 2007, 03:41 AM
http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/Shrek_2-cat-eyes-01.jpg
I will control them all with my amor

(I had to put it back ;) )

I say Byukuya has taken enough damage (one arm and one leg), so Zomari can die.
Byakuya can't have much more, since Zomari said he can control a brain : the next attack would the last.

What would be nice is Zomari barely surviving with only one or two eyes lefts... trying an ultimate trick on Byakuya but fails/is taken out by Unohana or Byakuya himself.

But I don't think he can escape this unscathed, this bankai is really powerful and he took it at full power. Guarding this, would mean his level is incredibly high even for an espada. I mean, if he can both use his incredibly powerful "amor" and take that kind of hit like it's nothing... I don't see where he'd be number 7 then. I think his weakness is low defense when released, compensation for the insane power of his eyes.

__________

btw i see some mistake in the chapter. Byakuya dropped his sword once to cast the spell and the next page the sword is back in his hand and he throws it once more to say bankai...

dreamzsai
November 26, 2007, 03:58 AM
Zomari is actually pretty decent for an Espada, and would seriously OWN any other person he fights(IF he actually goes all out right from the start)

If Zomari had just went on to control all 4 of Byakuya's limbs all at once, and slash off his head, Byakuya wont even have the chance to go on till now right?
Not to forget he can control so much more objects, and maybe do his duplicating Sonido while in released form to control a ton more of stuff?

It's just too bad that Zomari took things easy and thus lost this fight =/

leoliox
November 26, 2007, 04:31 AM
It's just too bad that Zomari took things easy and thus lost this fight =/

Yea.
I think Byukuya realised it. He saw Zomari had an incredible power but did not use wisely while he had kept his ability hidden and a huge resolve to kill Zomari at the first opportunity lest he harmed rukia.

That's what made the difference.

Toby_Temple
November 26, 2007, 09:17 AM
Zomari is actually pretty decent for an Espada, and would seriously OWN any other person he fights(IF he actually goes all out right from the start)

If Zomari had just went on to control all 4 of Byakuya's limbs all at once, and slash off his head, Byakuya wont even have the chance to go on till now right?
Not to forget he can control so much more objects, and maybe do his duplicating Sonido while in released form to control a ton more of stuff?

It's just too bad that Zomari took things easy and thus lost this fight =/

I agree. He could have just used one eye and went for Byakuya's head when he went bankai. What a moron. Maybe he panicked or something.....

drakend
November 26, 2007, 11:32 AM
Guys don't talk about strategy in anime: it's obvious there are plenty of plot-holes, otherwise Aizen would be on SS throne already...

droolz
November 26, 2007, 11:36 AM
btw i see some mistake in the chapter. Byakuya dropped his sword once to cast the spell and the next page the sword is back in his hand and he throws it once more to say bankai...

maybe he let go of the sword to make Zomari pause so he has time for the spell and pick it back up after that.. the next panel, byakuya is already BEHIND zomari and then drops he sword again.. bankai..

it would be much cooler if he didn't pick it up again (if that's what kubo intended) and just release Bankai behind zomari when the sword is on the other side.. shows more of "even if u can control my arms, u can't control my sword"... :p

TheChosenOne
November 26, 2007, 11:55 AM
I wonder who is going to heal Hanatarou, him being cut like that was too much (for Hana), Hopefully Unohana is done with Chad and come to aid Byakuya. :)

It was kind of dissapointing that Zomari could only control 50 things, maybe that's why he is 7. How can rukia be controlled, wasnt she skewered by Aaroniero, so she should have some limbs broken, or does Zomari's release takes care of that :)

mwalke32
November 26, 2007, 01:04 PM
Exactly Rukia was skewered through her gut, no broken bones just one deadly hole of a wound, which brings into question, "what exactly is a fatal wound in bleach?"..

I think the Zomari/Byakuya battle was to show the similarities of these espada and the current captains

Kenpachi/Noitora= Both have an unquenchable love of fighting, and desire to be the strongest

Mayuri/Szayel= Mad scientist personality, using knowledge to coumteract their somewhat weak abilities

Ichigo/Grimmjow=Always feels the need to prove ones self, actually wants to help friends(grimmjow by deeroy and shawlong)

Byakuya/Zomari= arrogant attitude, if they have the upper hand they will taunt and try to break the spirit of the opponent(ex. Byakuya could've easily killed Ichigo while in annhilationscape but didn't just to taunt and demean ichigo)

Unohana/Ulquiorra??= They do what they are told(subservient attitude), <<<just wanted to put that in

Hockeychaoz
November 26, 2007, 01:35 PM
Exactly Rukia was skewered through her gut, no broken bones just one deadly hole of a wound, which brings into question, "what exactly is a fatal wound in bleach?"..

I think the Zomari/Byakuya battle was to show the similarities of these espada and the current captains

Kenpachi/Noitora= Both have an unquenchable love of fighting, and desire to be the strongest

Mayuri/Szayel= Mad scientist personality, using knowledge to coumteract their somewhat weak abilities

Ichigo/Grimmjow=Always feels the need to prove ones self, actually wants to help friends(grimmjow by deeroy and shawlong)

Byakuya/Zomari= arrogant attitude, if they have the upper hand they will taunt and try to break the spirit of the opponent(ex. Byakuya could've easily killed Ichigo while in annhilationscape but didn't just to taunt and demean ichigo)

Unohana/Ulquiorra??= They do what they are told(subservient attitude), <<<just wanted to put that in


I'd say that they're more 2 sides of the same coin.

mwalke32
November 26, 2007, 03:42 PM
Heh, maybe if you mean that one is good and the other "evil".. but i think i see it more as the same.. Generally people tend to dislike people with their same attitude, especially those with their same character flaw, it goes to the parable of being able to see the dust in another man's eye and not being able to see the plank in your own...ex. Byakuya dislikes Zomari because of his arrogant nature(when byakuya is the king of being arrogant).. i think grimmjow disliked Ichigo simply because ichigo always had this look of superiority in battle no matter how bleak the situation may have looked(the same as GJ)..

hollowdemon
November 26, 2007, 05:01 PM
i agree, thats where the thought of grimmjow to help ichigo and co. comes in but its not going to be a peachy rosery happy help that he contributes. Its more like he doesnt want to help but he helps for the sake of his own satisfaction just like when he brought orihime to heal ichigo in order to fight him.
The Unohana/Ulquiorra thing is pretty intriguing.....what if in the future they end up fighting each other? that'll be awesome since we'll finally see how strong she really is :)

I wouldn't want the whole idea of zomari being alive in the next chapter to come true since theres no point to continue this battle. What i mean by that is byakuya is already messed up enough like mentioned before and with zomari's pumpkin self can he really do a sonido in that released form ? i highly doubt it...so i'd say zomari die so we can move on to the next battle, but perhaps maybe with a little info that he gives to byakuya before he dies :D who knows...

TheChosenOne
November 26, 2007, 07:20 PM
Since every espada so far has some sort of second ability, grimm with desugaron, Szayel with his voodoo doll, so maybe Zomari might have another ability that might enable him to survive the onslaught of Byakuya's bankai. :)

black_burn
November 26, 2007, 07:44 PM
I'm expecting Zomari to survive , be enraged unleash his strongest attack (like how Myuri did on Ishida) but then get denied by Byukuya.

hollowdemon
November 26, 2007, 07:52 PM
which is possible.....but the only way for him to survive that attack is what was mentioned somewhere earlier that i read....for zomari to control his other arm and misdirect the senbonzakura somewhere else but i dont see byakuya using his arm at all for the goukei senbonzakura though so i really doubt that...
Zomari probably will resort to that as u mentioned and aftetwards byakuya will just say how foolish of him to think that move would be able to kill then hes gone for good
if he does have one more move it better be only ONE more move...:mad

TheChosenOne
November 26, 2007, 07:59 PM
I'm expecting Zomari to survive , be enraged unleash his strongest attack (like how Myuri did on Ishida) but then get denied by Byukuya.

I think that is what will happen, Zomari will most likely reveal another ability of his release only to be stopped by Byakuya a second time. :)

I wonder if Goukie bankai is one of the abilities that byakuya has improved upon. It was awesome to see Byakuya act cool and superior :)

hollowdemon
November 26, 2007, 08:02 PM
so goukei is just....an exploding senbonzakura right ??
then what other moves he learned from yoruichi ?
i still believe that whole part where he seemed like he was stabbed is an illusion-shunpo type technique that yoruichi taught him

TheChosenOne
November 26, 2007, 08:06 PM
The illusion move has already been stated as a Yoruichi taught move, I don't think Goukei is from the Yoruichi shop, it is most likely something byakuya invented for his shortcoming against Ichigo's bankai :)

hollowdemon
November 26, 2007, 08:10 PM
in the bounto filler kariya also was able to avoid senbonzakura kageyoshi too
so im guessing he was getting sick of people finding out ways to defend his bankai all the damn time haha...:p

TheChosenOne
November 26, 2007, 08:16 PM
Well since Bounto is filler, it does not have much claim. But I agree that Byakuya felt weak cuz he was defeated by bankai Ichigo (Bankai vs Bankai, no senkie) :)

hollowdemon
November 26, 2007, 08:20 PM
true...the bounto filler doesnt really prove any facts to this arc but knowing a human taking on his senbonzakura mustve been frustrating too knowing his high claimed pride self he mustve trained as soon as he got the chance
and we're seeing a little preview of it with goukei

TheChosenOne
November 26, 2007, 08:29 PM
I am really glad that Byakuya's fight was first since he has set the standard for how much a shinigami captain can grow. Kenpachi might be as twice as powerful or even more than he was in SS. :)

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 12:05 AM
and im sure thats what we are all crossing our fingers and hoping for
cuz kenpachi just has that potential to be much stronger well just like how i believe hitsugaya can since hes still MUCH younger than any other captains.
Well my point is kenpachi must have more than the whole eyepatch thingy he has goin on ya know? definitely bankai is next up :D

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 01:40 AM
I hope mayuri shows us something new next chapter. I wonder if zomari is dead or will be back to show us another ability like grimm did when I ichigo had sliced him, but later was not serious. :)

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 01:48 AM
.....please lets not have that to be the case in this situation cuz we just need to move on to the mayuri vs szayel battle....or if kubo decides to move WAY forward then kenpachi vs nnoitra which we have been anticipating :D

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 01:53 AM
the thing kubo had done this many times. With Ichigo, during kenpachi's and byakuya's fight. But I agree with that szayel and mayuri should be next so that this arc could be over. :)

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 02:09 AM
yeah since i see it more as mayuri finishing up szayel to regroup together with byakuya where kenpachi vs nnoitra is to find out a bigger information that they find out or after they find out then they regroup. Byakuya could careless if his arms and leg tendon are sliced hes a G son :D

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 02:48 AM
I wonder if hana will still be able to heal rukia. Him being slashed was suprising, since I thought byakuya vs rukia would been interesting. :)

squidbreath
November 27, 2007, 05:40 AM
Byakuya's zanpakutou BROKE, he wasn't going to be able to do crap. Ichigo had enough energy to save Renji later, he easily had enough to slash a defenseless Byakuya.

Yeh, except you forgot that Byakuya is excellent in Kido and wasn't defenseless at all. :p

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 10:31 AM
if it ever came down to byakuya vs rukia then byakuya would just simply use his kidou to stop her and afterwards she would be stuck just like how he did with the whole stopping her from slashing her own neck situation.
Hana looks badly injured....doesnt look too good but probably unohana or isane might come to the rescue to help him out....if hes injured could he heal himself?

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 11:43 AM
Most likely a binding spell, I doubt Byakuya would use some sort of destructive spells, like byakurai (White lightning) or sokatsui (Blue Fire). :)

The Gokei bankai according to wiki, is the third form of byakuya's bankai, it's callled pivotal scene, it attacks from every angle, thus leaving no blind spots :)

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 11:51 AM
if the espada are dying just like the privaron espadas then would the exequias would step in and execute them when theyre defeated? i dont think that would be the situation but wouldnt that be the case if they were defeated?

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 12:29 PM
I doubt if Zomari's is on the verge of death, the exequias would finish them off. Since the espada is above everyone, except Aizen, unless Aizen gives them the order to finish of the injured espada's :)

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 12:33 PM
yeah true....
i dont think zomari would get that kind of execution by the exequias but i do see gin or tousen delivering a death blow to one of the espadas though...maybe nnoitra? :)

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 12:43 PM
Most likely Kenpachi kills of Nnoi. Most likely tousen since he dislikes people who disobeys Aizen. I think Zomari is not dead, his death happened too quick. He only lasted for 5 chapters (Since his formal intro) :)

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 12:45 PM
i also dont see him living and still be in the espada ranking if it comes down to him still being alive after goukei senbonzakura.

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 01:00 PM
Since the blades attack from all angles, I doubt that he is still alive. But espada's have a way of coming back for more, even after a deadly attack :)

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 01:08 PM
its a wrap for zomari cuz if hes still alive after that attack then it just shows that byakuya didnt really improve in his new acquired move that he showed us.

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 01:21 PM
Well Zomari could still have another ability. Since all the released espada had two abilites for their releases, Zomari could have the same. but I doubt it would do any good. :)

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 01:25 PM
itll probably be futile as byakuya mentioned of his resistance to try to control his million goukei senbonzakura and is his goukie a million blades or his senbonzakura have been a million pieces of blades? cuz he just revealed that to us

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 01:30 PM
Agreed:)
Byakuya's futile statement could be the end for Zomari, It's sad cuz we never really got to know his past :)

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 01:35 PM
whose past do u mean? byakuya's or zomari's ?
byakuya already knew zomaris attack was futile thus him playing along by cutting his limbs was just a game and tactic for him

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 02:44 PM
Zomari's, if he is dead what happened with him will be a mystery. I wanted some more depth but I guess that is not part of Kubo's plans :)

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 03:01 PM
there would be no chance for him to still be in the rankings if he happened to survive byakuya's attacks unless he gained some sorty of new informations while he fought byakuya which i dont see how he gained it..but he should just roll over and drop dead :)

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 03:10 PM
Well maybe in the end Zomari will share the same fate as his friends Aaroniero did, death in the hands of a Kuchiki :)

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 03:12 PM
how ironic is that an arrogant person is killed by another highly nobled arrogant person except that byakuya has more of a swagger since hes a noble member of a family than just a hollow espada

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 03:17 PM
Well the reason he is arrongant is cuz of his nobility so they go hand in hand. But I agree that is ironic how Zomari's death occurred :)

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 03:30 PM
its just like how grimmjow had his ass handed to ichigo when he was defeated but he didnt want to admit it just like how ichigo would be :D
byakuya keeping his cool throughout the whole battle (i dont even think we can call it a battle more like a scrimmage lol :p ) and just unleashed it on zomaris ass
and foolishly he thought he could control a million senbonzakura....:eyeroll

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 04:43 PM
I guess Kubo is trying to kill of the espada by their captains counterparts, so I guess Szayel and Nnoi shall follow in Zomari's footsteps. Zomari did not know about the million blades, he thought there would not be that much, until byakuya showed him is where Zomari receives the shocking truth :)

Neuroff
November 27, 2007, 05:36 PM
Yeh, except you forgot that Byakuya is excellent in Kido and wasn't defenseless at all. :p
Yeah, except kidou would have been completely useless.

hollowdemon
November 27, 2007, 08:30 PM
and it sure was a shocking truth when it just exploded, sliced and diced him in front of his face. I dont see any WAY for him to evade that move or even survive it.
Kidou wouldnt've been able to beat ichigo but it would've put a halt to his tracks ... (just giving byakuya some hope there :p )

TheChosenOne
November 27, 2007, 08:39 PM
I think kidou used with your zanpak's ability makes it effective. Like what Aizen did with komma, and Byakuya with Ichigo :)

Neuroff
November 28, 2007, 12:13 AM
That was about after Ichigo broke Byakuya's zanpakutou.

TheChosenOne
November 28, 2007, 12:22 AM
That was about after Ichigo broke Byakuya's zanpakutou.

well there is still aizen, he used his swords illusion ability to confuse kommamura and then attacked him with the black coffin spell. :)

Neuroff
November 28, 2007, 12:46 AM
well there is still aizen, he used his swords illusion ability to confuse kommamura and then attacked him with the black coffin spell. :)
Don't see why you're talking about Aizen. We were talking about Ichigo and Byakuya's fight.

hollowdemon
November 28, 2007, 01:20 AM
the point is how the kidou is used and what kind of power that person using it has
i bet aizen can take down komamura and hitsugaya with just kidou if he wanted to
byakuya just surrendered since he wanted rukia to still be alive after the fight but if byakuya decides to do that against zomari i bet he wont have a chance since his power level isnt such a vast gap of difference between the two.

DarkManSharingan32
November 28, 2007, 11:14 AM
Byakuya just saved the manga for me...
One of the best chapters in a LOOOONG time.

hollowdemon
November 28, 2007, 11:24 AM
when he crushed zomari with goukei? id say thats the best move thats been shown yet
and probably more to go :D

TheChosenOne
November 28, 2007, 01:08 PM
Byakuya just saved the manga for me...
One of the best chapters in a LOOOONG time.

Agreed:)
The chapters with Byakuya and Zomari are one of the best fights in recent volumes. I also agree that chapter 301 has one been the best chapter for Hueco Mundo arc :)

hollowdemon
November 28, 2007, 07:57 PM
yeah so far... but not THE best im sure we all have high expectations for kenpachi vs nnoitra which will be awesome :D

TheChosenOne
November 28, 2007, 08:02 PM
Agreed:)
Kenpach vs Nnoi should be the best, The byakuya fight is not too shabby. :)

hollowdemon
November 28, 2007, 08:28 PM
only shabby part is the release part cause we knew with that form he wouldnt be able to go anywhere but stay in one place..

TheChosenOne
November 28, 2007, 08:31 PM
Well since his release able him to control everything around him, it's only fair that he stays in one place :)

hollowdemon
November 28, 2007, 08:33 PM
true otherwise then we would say hes stronger than grimmjow and deserves a higher spot in the ranking if he can do otherwise

TheChosenOne
November 28, 2007, 08:38 PM
Well Zomari can only control 50 things, that alone is his weakness, So it's understandable why he is 7th and not higher up :)

hollowdemon
November 28, 2007, 08:44 PM
yeah and pretty foolish to try to control a million senbonzakura too ... what was he thinkin :D

TheChosenOne
November 28, 2007, 08:46 PM
Well i doubt he knew that there was going to be a million, he did not see it at first, but later when Byakuya described it for him, he knew his inability to defeat byakuya :)

hollowdemon
November 28, 2007, 08:52 PM
he did quote that it is a million .... thats how he improved his senbonzakura to goukei senbonzakura too while normal senbonzakura kageyoshi is only .... what? thousands of blades

TheChosenOne
November 28, 2007, 08:58 PM
His shikai is 1000 blades
His bankai is around a million

Goukei means pivotal scene, which cause the blades to attack from every angle thus leaving no blind spots :)