PDA

View Full Version : Aizen: Not the Typical Anime Villain?



Zeus-Tails
December 01, 2007, 05:49 PM
Does anyone else think Aizen isn't the typical anime villain? Let me list the observations I made about him that suggest to me that he isn't the typical villain and may not be such a bad guy.

-He does not abuse or punish his subordinates. Even when they come close to being out of line, he does not do anything himself. He let Tousen do what he wanted with Grimmjow, but Aizen doesn't seem to be the type of person to give out punishments.

-He acts casually with his comrades and subordinates. I was surprised when he actually apologized when Luppi got aggravated when Luppi learned that he was just a diversion. He is also very casual with Tousen and Gin. Gin even talks to him like an equal instead of his superior. Aizen even lets Szayel off the hook when Szayel acted without Aizen's permission.

-He acts very nice to Inoue. Usually the villain would try to intimidate her and make her life hell to force her to do his bidding. Aizen just acts cool and simply tells her straight up his plan.

-This point may be up for debate, but Aizen doesn't seem to take interest in killing people unless it's necessary. He only tried to kill Hinamori, Rukia, Byakuya, Ichigo and Hitsugaya because they were the enemy and because they got in his way to the point where they were annoyances. He didn't want to kill Renji and he didn't even bother to finish off Komamura. Furthermore, he didn't even bother to attack Isane and Unohana (I'm 100% sure he could of taken them out quickly if he wanted to).

Now, I want to discuss his actions in the Soul Society. My reasoning is that he knew he had to gain hollow powers to further his limits as a fighter. To do this, he would need the Hyogoku and he would most likely have to live amongst the hollows to learn about them. Now, he knows what it would look like if he lived among the hollows. The Soul Society would try to kill him (I mean they tried to execute Rukia for some BS reason, jeez), so he knew SS would become his enemy sooner or later. Therefore, he would be punished for being a determined fighter and wanting to reach new heights.
---Knowing this, he took the necessary precautions to prepare for a war that he knew the SS would start with him. He devised a thorough plan to get the item that would help in his quest for more power: the Hyogoku. He did what he did to get it and be able to leave in one piece. He just hit a few road blocks on the way, which he had to take care of to ensure his own safety. Those road blocks were:

-Taking out Hinamori whose obsession could prematurely reveal his position to the other captains.
-Taking out Hitsugaya because he predicted that Hitsugaya would try to come after him, especially knowing the relationship Hitsugaya has with Hinamori (obviously Aizen was right).
-Taking down Ichigo, Renji and Komamura for coming in his way especially since Aizen wasn't planning on targeting them. I think he wanted to take down Rukia because he basically doesn't like her or his brother. That's the most I can say about that for now.

This idea about Aizen's character came to me when I heard Zomari's embarrassing plea to Byakuya. Shinigami automatically labeled Hollows as bad guys and themselves as good guys. I mean yea Hollows eat humans but isn't slashing down Hollows similar in a sense? Shinigami will slash down a Hollow as soon as they see one, even if the Hollow isn't doing anything. I'm pretty sure the usual shinigami would kill Nell, Dondo and Pesche even if they were just playing. Aizen knew this and knew he would be in danger when he decided to go after Hollow powers so he made war on the SS before they could make war on him.

Personally, Aizen seems alright. He is just suffering the consequence of seeking more power (which isn't a bad thing because all fighters are determined to get stronger). What may look like evil actions are just retaliations to the SS's strict rules. It's quite similar to Ukitake and Kyoraku fighting Yama-jii when they took down the execution bird. Furthermore, some of his actions don't even seem bad at all. He forced Inoue to come to Hueco Mundo but he's not hurting her or anything. He's treating her like and guest and all he wants his a favor from her, which he couldn't get under any other circumstances.

Aizen's character doesn't really fit the villain role and it is funny because Ichigo is in the same boat as Aizen, yet Ichigo is labeled as a good guy. Aizen wants to be stronger and Ichigo wants to be stronger. Aizen wants to utilize hollow powers to gain power and Ichigo utilizes hollow powers to gain power. Aizen slashes down enemies that are in the way of his goals and Ichigo does the same thing. So why is Aizen labeled the bad guy and Ichigo is labeled the good guy? It's because Aizen hangs out with hollows and Ichigo hangs out with Shinigami and the SS have taken upon themselves to label hollows as the bad guys even though the Shinigami's actions are just as bad as the Hollows (Killing your own just because they stayed in the real world too long? Jeez).

Vegetoacs
December 01, 2007, 06:18 PM
Upon reflection of those points, I think we need to view Aizen for what he truly is; A master manipulator. Heck, even his shinigami powers reflect this in his ability to hypnotise and control other's perceptions. I think we see quite a bit of this in his reletionship with the Espada. As you've stated, he never hands out punishment, and on the contrary, acts quite cordially, without any fear at all. This is probably what throws most of the hollows off right to begin with. He seems like this benevolent, fearless, ideal being that just happens to have similar goals to the Hollow hierachy of Huneco Mundo. Whenever punishment is dealt out, it's dealt out by a subordinante, but not of either's choosing. He simply escalates the conflict by adding his touch here and there. We saw quite a bit of this in Soul Society while he was in the final stages of his plan to obtain the Hogyoku.

Also, we're not entirely sure becoming the ultimate power within his reality is his ultimate goal. It seems more like a means to an end. Presently, given his movement towards creating an "Ou Ken", it would suggest that his primary objective is to become the ruler of soul society, perhaps as well as Huneco Mundo. Becoming ultimately powerful is just to prevent anyone from dethroning him once he acheives his ambitions. The reason why we can't be sure is he's never, as you put it "straight up" with anyone (kinda like Urahara..lol), we've seen as recently as the last anime episode where he appears to be manipulating Orihime into using her power upon the Hogyoku, to what exact end we do not know, but can speculate about.

I did quite like your point about living amongst the hollows as research for when he attempted an ascension to Vizard. I've always thought of the hollows more as his means to the end of preventing Soul Society from being able to dominate him, as powerful as he is, before he can attain and master vizard powers that would eventually allow him to defeat anything without an assistance. Research is inclusive in the means to an end, i suppose, but never thought about it as directly :)

Another thing to consider here is Zomari's assertion that Shinigami have no right to act as "gods" when they slaughter hollows. While they do appear quite high and mighty at times, we have to consider what they're actually doing. Their ilk is charged with the protection of helpless souls that cannot pass into Soul Society, which actually also extends to the helpless souls that become hollows. When a hollow is killed, the original spirit is freed, although i'm not sure if that extends to situations such as that of the Menos, where a blending of souls has occured, with one soul eventually become the dominant one of the mix. And if we are to believe that the king of Soul Society is "God", then the shinigami most certainly DO have the god given right to slay hollows. I think you'll find most of zomari's words were said out of fear if nothing else, given that hollow's most dominant emotion is that of fear.

Finally, I believe you are correct in the assertion that Aizen is no normal villain, by our traditional standards, but if you look at real world history, and the tyrants that have risen to power using means of manipulation, fear and the like, you'll probably find this brand of evil is by far, more terrorifying than anything a blunt instrument rank and file bad guy is ever capable of.

JioFreed666
December 01, 2007, 08:21 PM
For the Creator of this topic:

Aizen isn't anyway near typical but dose cross that line because the only way he knew how to gain power was by killing Rukia and retreving that Urahara hidden inside her but since that plan wreaked at the very last second he did something that was not as 100% deady but still all the same could have killed Rukia while Ichigo never cross that line expect when he originally got his powers but those where only braking a set by SS rule not a moral rule of killing.

but you clearly forgot you basics Shinigami work which is when a corrupted soul who's become a hollow is defeated they are cleansed and sent to SS ,unless in situations like now where the souls are to evil to be "cleansed" but not bad enough in their human life that they go to hell...they just die. When a truly evil soul who's been evil before they died in the human sense of dying and then are defeated by a Shinigami they are sent to hell and I think it's the same way for Sado and Orihimes power(never explained) but not so for Ishida. as explained souls are permanently killed creating an inbalance when done on a very large scale (when quincies where as plentiful as Shinigami) so I think they allow Ishida to slip by.

But Aizen is no sense of any kind of mold ,other then good guy turned bad guy looking for power to become a god like figure, in the way he dose things similar to any other villain in Manga or anime. Maybe Kamen Rider and Power Rangers where villain's lackeys are given chance after chance before finally being finished off or converted to good in the end. And they're never usually punished harshly but scolded. And he dosen't mind Gin talking to him like that because they are familiar with each other they've been scheming together since before Rukia became a Shinigami and Probably the same with Tousen. Just Tousen like to show respect

IchigoSoul
December 01, 2007, 08:39 PM
Aizen dont act like a typical bad guy because he knows how to control everyone and make them fight one another with just a few touches. For example, aizen knew that tousen hates what grimmjow did and he knew tousen was going to attack and he let it happen without himself handing out the punishment himself. Like gin said, aizen enjoys controlling what people do.

Secondly, Aizen and ichigo's aims are different. Aizen wants to achieve power to dominate the whole world while ichigo only aim to protect his friends. Think in this situation, if not for aizen, ichigo would not have attempt to get more power. Ichigo achieve shikai to save rukia whose capture order was from aizen(The council was dead aready). Ichigo achieve bankai to save rukia from being excuted, once again was aizen's orders. Ichigo became a vaizard to save inoue, who at Aizen's orders was captured. So their aim is different.

Thirdly, i doubt Aizen went to hueco mundo for research. I think he did his research in SS. I think the reason for aizen to go into hueco mundo is to gain domiance there and build up an army of arrancar.

SO to answer your question, aizen isnt a typical bad guy because he is way too smart and compose.

JioFreed666
December 01, 2007, 09:18 PM
I hate how people say that Aizen knew tousen was going to do that because Aizen has no idea what anybody going to fully do it's to unpredictable especially after his nearly perfectly plan to get away with murdering rukia came undone because of Ichigo become a such a wild card

AngryChubbs
December 01, 2007, 11:47 PM
i agree that aizen is just a manipulator and that is pretty on par with most evil villans. they generally want to be the ones in control. they want everything and they will try to get everything they want. going by that, aizen is the typical villan except for how he treat those around him. unlike most villans, aizen actually has a brian and knows how to use it to plan things out. and while he may not yell at the espada, he fears nothing and knows that if he has to dirty his sword, that he can without the slightest of worries.

IchigoSoul
December 02, 2007, 03:29 AM
I hate how people say that Aizen knew tousen was going to do that because Aizen has no idea what anybody going to fully do it's to unpredictable especially after his nearly perfectly plan to get away with murdering rukia came undone because of Ichigo become a such a wild card

Actually, Aizen knew that Tousen was going to attack grimmjow. Aizen did not expect Ichigo to be able to reach SS in the first place. Aizen included lchigo last minute into his plan to distract SS. Who would have in their craziest mind can predict a ryoko attaining bankai in that short while. If you calculate the probabilities, i would say 1 in 1million or 10 million....

Zeus-Tails
December 02, 2007, 04:00 AM
Aizen is manipulative in the SS to simply get what he needed and that was the Hyogoku and a safe way out (that's why he recruited the three remaining SS guardians).

His Hueco Mundo manipulation is probably because he wants to root out the people in his army who aren't loyal. He knows Grimmjow isn't completely loyal, but Aizen isn't the type of person to give out punishment, but luckily Tousen is around and Tousen doesn't mind dishing out punishment.

With the Shinigami and Hollow deal, yes Shinigami purify the soul/send them to hell, but they are still cutting the Hollows down. It's not really the Hollow's fault, they are just corrupted human spirits. And so what if they eat humans? Humans go to the afterlife and some become Shinigami and then Shinigami die and are reincarnated by humans. Corrupted humans (hollows) contribute in both the deaths of humans and Shinigami, so Hollows are a part of the balance. It's similar to animals/insects in wildlife.

Also, I'd like to add something. Did Aizen ever state that he was going to vaporize Karakura Town in order to make another Key? Isn't that what Yamamoto just assumed? All they know is that Aizen researched where the original key might be and how to make another. I haven't really seen Aizen say that he is going to use the method to make another key. Furthermore, we don't know what he's going to do when he reaches the Soul King's realm. We know he's not going to have tea and crumpets but we can't be sure he's going to assassinate anyone.
---But if Aizen IS doing what Yamamoto suggests, why is it really evil? Since he lives with Hollows, the Shinigami have already marked him the enemy. Furthermore, since the Shinigami associate themselves with humans, Aizen feels that the humans are his enemies as well, so it would just be like taking down the enemy. I don't think it would be a problem if Ichigo was able to come up with a nuke and nuked all of Hueco Mundo.

MegaX
December 02, 2007, 01:39 PM
With the Shinigami and Hollow deal, yes Shinigami purify the soul/send them to hell, but they are still cutting the Hollows down. It's not really the Hollow's fault, they are just corrupted human spirits. And so what if they eat humans? Humans go to the afterlife and some become Shinigami and then Shinigami die and are reincarnated by humans. Corrupted humans (hollows) contribute in both the deaths of humans and Shinigami, so Hollows are a part of the balance. It's similar to animals/insects in wildlife.

But when a soul gets devoured by a Hollow, it stays part of the Hollow and doesn't get to go to SS, at least as long as the Hollow exists. So in a sense, Hollows disrupt the natural balance like Quincys, only less permanently.



---But if Aizen IS doing what Yamamoto suggests, why is it really evil? Since he lives with Hollows, the Shinigami have already marked him the enemy. Furthermore, since the Shinigami associate themselves with humans, Aizen feels that the humans are his enemies as well, so it would just be like taking down the enemy. I don't think it would be a problem if Ichigo was able to come up with a nuke and nuked all of Hueco Mundo.

You don't see anything wrong with the collateral damage of people who not only are unaware of a war, but have no idea what Shinigami even are?

Zeus-Tails
December 02, 2007, 01:51 PM
Isn't that a part of war? There are usually civilian casualties in the pursuit of the win.

MegaX
December 02, 2007, 06:12 PM
Yes, but usually the casualties are those of the enemy's nation. The people in this situation are neutral party. Aizen's plan is just a mass slaughter so that he can gain something to use to get into the King's realm.

Zeus-Tails
December 02, 2007, 06:35 PM
The casualties are the citizens of the enemy nation who may or may not agree with the war going on. If they don't agree then they are neutral but they still are casualties.

IchigoSoul
December 02, 2007, 07:24 PM
Aizen is mass killing for his own purposes...

JioFreed666
December 03, 2007, 01:54 AM
Which is a basic villian goal I.S. how are humans enemies when usually beside the case of The Kurosaki family and Orihime and Sado no one knows that Aizen is the enemy in the and have the power to fight? so They are pretty neutral until they state a side

Now as for stuff above the last 3 post
Yamamoto could be very corrupt himself along with the rest of SS if you have have that view point like Tousen dose of Room 46 since they are the one who judge Shinigami but probably let the Shinigami who killed His idol off easy.


Hollows work as more of a blob where it gains more mass/power as it absorbs more but that mass absorbed originally is still part of that blob until it's killed

I say really that This is going to be another "Kira" from death note cool calculated till everything he originally plans falls apart completely.Which would be Gin and Tousen captured or dead FOR REAL no escape plan, Espada dead, Aizen's Zanpakuto no response to his commands and the SS heavy hitters right infront of him with no escape)

MegaX
December 03, 2007, 03:29 AM
The casualties are the citizens of the enemy nation who may or may not agree with the war going on. If they don't agree then they are neutral but they still are casualties.

That's just it, the humans aren't citizens of the enemy nation. Even so, Aizen would be committing an act that would under modern law be considered a war crime. The fact that an international body of laws was created that defined what is and is not acceptable in war implies some kind of moral wrongness in certain actions. Generally, the mass slaughter of non-combatants is a no-no.

Zeus-Tails
December 03, 2007, 06:11 AM
Well the A-bomb was a mass slaughter of non-combatants :)

@JioFreed666: You actually think Aizen would be scared of most of the SS captains? Also I predict a few of the top shinigami fighters will die before the final showdown commences.

MegaX
December 03, 2007, 10:28 AM
Well the A-bomb was a mass slaughter of non-combatants :)

Yes. Yes it was. And I'm sure you'll find that it's morality is still debated. Even if you were to argue for it's justification, chances are that you'd take the angle of "it was the lesser of two evils and took less lives in the long run than the alternative", not "it was a good thing".

Zeus-Tails
December 03, 2007, 04:21 PM
Yes. Yes it was. And I'm sure you'll find that it's morality is still debated. Even if you were to argue for it's justification, chances are that you'd take the angle of "it was the lesser of two evils and took less lives in the long run than the alternative", not "it was a good thing".

I am not supporting the A-bomb, but my point was things like this have happened in the times of war and the U.S. isn't really considered a villain for it, so why should Aizen? :P

MegaX
December 03, 2007, 08:52 PM
I am not supporting the A-bomb, but my point was things like this have happened in the times of war and the U.S. isn't really considered a villain for it, so why should Aizen? :P

The main motives for the A-bomb were to bring a quick end to the war rather than to perform a land invasion which would arguably have cost more lives on both sides. Aizen's plan on the other hand would actually give him the resource to cause more devastation.

So if an action of the that caliber done for the right reasons is still morally ambiguous, what about an action of the same level done for the wrong reasons?

Zeus-Tails
December 03, 2007, 09:58 PM
It doesn't really matter what the reason behind the A-bomb is because the point is it nuked an area, which is exactly what Aizen will do (if it is truly his plan; I think he will just find out where Yamamoto hid the original and get it). Both the A-bomb and nuking of Karakura Town have the same motive: to get what the person/country wants.

MegaX
December 03, 2007, 10:27 PM
It doesn't really matter what the reason behind the A-bomb is because the point is it nuked an area, which is exactly what Aizen will do (if it is truly his plan; I think he will just find out where Yamamoto hid the original and get it). Both the A-bomb and nuking of Karakura Town have the same motive: to get what the person/country wants.

Not quite. First of all, Aizen is the aggressor, whereas the U.S. was not. As well, Aizen's goal is to use this to advance the war to the next stage, not as an alternative to a bloodier plan.

Do you not see the difference?

JioFreed666
December 03, 2007, 11:29 PM
Well the A-bomb was a mass slaughter of non-combatants :)

@JioFreed666: You actually think Aizen would be scared of most of the SS captains? Also I predict a few of the top shinigami fighters will die before the final showdown commences.

I do if he was in a position like I stated in my last post with out Any espada or assistance and his Zanpakuto broken or Not obeying his commands if it ends like death note

Zeus-Tails
December 04, 2007, 03:52 AM
Not quite. First of all, Aizen is the aggressor, whereas the U.S. was not. As well, Aizen's goal is to use this to advance the war to the next stage, not as an alternative to a bloodier plan.

Do you not see the difference?

Actually SS was the aggressor since they invaded his space and came after his people. As soon as Aizen left the SS, the SS was preparing for war. Aizen knew this beforehand and prepared, but he did no invade SS and the only reason he sent people to Earth was to collect information and get Inoue to come. He needs Inoue for something and his plans for her afterward are unclear.

SS was the aggressor, not Aizen.


I do if he was in a position like I stated in my last post with out Any espada or assistance and his Zanpakuto broken or Not obeying his commands if it ends like death note

Well he did take down multiple captain-level fighters in SS by himself and there is no reason his zanpakutoh should not obey him since he's a part of him and he well knows its name. Even if his sword breaks by some reason, he still has high-level kidou to work with.

MegaX
December 04, 2007, 04:14 AM
Actually SS was the aggressor since they invaded his space and came after his people. As soon as Aizen left the SS, the SS was preparing for war. Aizen knew this beforehand and prepared, but he did no invade SS and the only reason he sent people to Earth was to collect information and get Inoue to come. He needs Inoue for something and his plans for her afterward are unclear.

SS was the aggressor, not Aizen.

That depends entirely on whether high treason and threat of regicide is considered an act of war, to which I believe the answer is yes.

AngryChubbs
December 04, 2007, 06:03 PM
That depends entirely on whether high treason and threat of regicide is considered an act of war, to which I believe the answer is yes.

i agree

Zeus-Tails
December 04, 2007, 06:10 PM
Well Aizen's acts in the SS were to ensure a safe way out. He couldn't just up and walk out, grab RUkia and get the Hyogoku. And he hasn't even met the Spirit King, much less commit regicide yet :)

Neuroff
December 04, 2007, 06:35 PM
Soul Society is unreasonable because they tried to kill Rukia? Aizen is the one that ordered it.

Aizen wasn't the aggressor? All he did was kill the entire government.

MegaX
December 04, 2007, 06:49 PM
Well Aizen's acts in the SS were to ensure a safe way out. He couldn't just up and walk out, grab RUkia and get the Hyogoku. And he hasn't even met the Spirit King, much less commit regicide yet :)

No. But he has committed high treason.


He arranged for the death of a Shinigami and a member of the noble houses for crimes that did not warrant such a punishment.
He killed the members of the Central Chambers, the effective ruling body of Soul Society.
He impersonated the members of the Chamber for--at the very least--several days after killing them.
Expressed an intent to kill or otherwise threaten the King.
Stole a state secret.
Left Soul Society with the help of known enemies.
Attempted to kill at least one captain of the Gotei 13


Do you have any objections to the above list?

Zeus-Tails
December 04, 2007, 07:17 PM
Soul Society is unreasonable because they tried to kill Rukia? Aizen is the one that ordered it.

Aizen wasn't the aggressor? All he did was kill the entire government.

Yamamoto took over rule of the SS in replace of those people in like 2 seconds. It didn't seem like a big loss to me. Also, how gullible are SS that they would just do whatever these people say without question? This seems like a dictatorship to me. It's like no matter what the Central people say, SS do the action without objection.


No. But he has committed high treason.


He arranged for the death of a Shinigami and a member of the noble houses for crimes that did not warrant such a punishment.
He killed the members of the Central Chambers, the effective ruling body of Soul Society.
He impersonated the members of the Chamber for--at the very least--several days after killing them.
Expressed an intent to kill or otherwise threaten the King.
Stole a state secret.
Left Soul Society with the help of known enemies.
Attempted to kill at least one captain of the Gotei 13


Do you have any objections to the above list?

Yea he arranged for the death but as I said above, the SS is a corrupt establishment. It's a dictatorship.

I don't remember Aizen ever saying he wanted to kill the King. We don't know what he wants to do when he gets there, but we cannot make such assumptions because the things that happen in mangas are usually not straightforward.

Stole a state secret? It's not that much of a secret if anyone could just waltz in a read up on it. That's like saying people stole information off the school bulletin board.

Just because he hangs out with hollows doesn't mean much. Why should his life be so controlled that he cannot choose where he wants to go live? It's not like he chose to go the SS. He either died and was sent there or was born there and when you go there you don't have much of a choice in the way of life. As I said, the SS are corrupt because they are a dictatorship. He didn't want to be controlled by such a corrupt establishment.

Yea, you forgot the part where those people tried to kill him.

IchigoSoul
December 04, 2007, 07:55 PM
SS captains were forced to kill Aizen because he commited high treason. If it is for the good of SS then there is still forgivable but he did it in his own interests.

Neuroff
December 04, 2007, 08:28 PM
Yea he arranged for the death but as I said above, the SS is a corrupt establishment. It's a dictatorship.
Somehow a governing body of 46 members is a dictatorship, that's very good reasoning.


Stole a state secret? It's not that much of a secret if anyone could just waltz in a read up on it. That's like saying people stole information off the school bulletin board.
Oh yeah, anyone could waltz into an area where entry is forbidden under any circumstance. You just need to ask nicely.


Just because he hangs out with hollows doesn't mean much. Why should his life be so controlled that he cannot choose where he wants to go live? It's not like he chose to go the SS. He either died and was sent there or was born there and when you go there you don't have much of a choice in the way of life. As I said, the SS are corrupt because they are a dictatorship. He didn't want to be controlled by such a corrupt establishment.
Again with this Soul Society dictatorship BS. The King has absolutely nothing to do with governing Soul Society, he left that entirely to the Central 46.

JioFreed666
December 04, 2007, 08:55 PM
Well he did take down multiple captain-level fighters in SS by himself and there is no reason his zanpakutoh should not obey him since he's a part of him and he well knows its name. Even if his sword breaks by some reason, he still has high-level kidou to work with.

Your forgetting that he'll probably be facing off against the first captain, Yamamoto who has been able to take on two of the highest captains Aside from himself and if he had the intend to kill would have with only the Shikai(if it was even his Shikai). Plus he was almost make a vice captain faint with his Spirtal pressure alone and before you say Kenpachi almost made that happen he didn't be he only knocked out Hano who is weak to start with(untill his Shikai activates) Ichigo and Shiba where able to stand but barely and Ichigo was about the level of a vice captain
[hr]

Somehow a governing body of 46 members is a dictatorship, that's very good reasoning.
LOL good one



Oh yeah, anyone could waltz into an area where entry is forbidden under any circumstance. You just need to ask nicely.
Oh C46 can I go read up on this information?



Again with this Soul Society dictatorship BS. The King has absolutely nothing to do with governing Soul Society, he left that entirely to the Central 46.

"The King" is like god he dosen't do anything until you see him personally but probably left guide line rules of who gets in who dosen't wtf happens to those who don't pay attention to those rules(Rukia was almost a good example) and I'm really going to laugh if he's Isshin or Isshin's father

MegaX
December 04, 2007, 09:01 PM
Yamamoto took over rule of the SS in replace of those people in like 2 seconds. It didn't seem like a big loss to me. Also, how gullible are SS that they would just do whatever these people say without question? This seems like a dictatorship to me. It's like no matter what the Central people say, SS do the action without objection.

That's irrelevant to this discussion. Proving that SS is corrupt does not make action against it good by default. In short, it changes nothing about Aizen or his motives. Even so, the Gotei 13 is a military installation. The military is charged to obey the highest authority without question, whether that be a man, a group or a document.


Yea he arranged for the death but as I said above, the SS is a corrupt establishment. It's a dictatorship.

No. A dictatorship is ruled by a dictator. That's singular.


I don't remember Aizen ever saying he wanted to kill the King. We don't know what he wants to do when he gets there, but we cannot make such assumptions because the things that happen in mangas are usually not straightforward.

He said he wanted to sit on the throne which, barring some strange throne fetish, means he wants to become king. Surely he can't do that while there's already a king?


Stole a state secret? It's not that much of a secret if anyone could just waltz in a read up on it. That's like saying people stole information off the school bulletin board.

If you have to kill the rulers of the nation to get to it...


Just because he hangs out with hollows doesn't mean much. Why should his life be so controlled that he cannot choose where he wants to go live? It's not like he chose to go the SS. He either died and was sent there or was born there and when you go there you don't have much of a choice in the way of life. As I said, the SS are corrupt because they are a dictatorship. He didn't want to be controlled by such a corrupt establishment.

Do you even understand the concept of what a Hollow is?


Yea, you forgot the part where those people tried to kill him.

You're right! Let's completely ignore the part where he attempted to kill both a captain and a vice-captain beforehand, or where he murdered the rulers, unlawfully impersonated them, orchestrated a grand conspiracy, etc.

How dare they stop him!

Neuroff
December 04, 2007, 09:05 PM
Oh C46 can I go read up on this information?
Chapter 171, Page 7:
Unohana: In Seireitei, there is only one place... where entry is absolutely forbidden under any circumstance. And that is the Seijoutouyorin (The Tranquil Forest of Residential Towers). If you wanted to conceal your presence, so much that you created such a well-made "corpse doll" for it, you would have also chosen the best hiding place, and there is no other place in Seireitei that's safer and harder to find than here.

On Chapter 176, pages 15-17, Aizen talks about how even captains cannot enter the chamber without permission, and how he used the library inside to research.

On Chapter 223, pages 4-10, Yamamoto talks about Aizen using the library to look up information on Ouken and its creation.

nordicbattlesigns
December 04, 2007, 09:25 PM
Yamamoto took over rule of the SS in replace of those people in like 2 seconds. It didn't seem like a big loss to me. Also, how gullible are SS that they would just do whatever these people say without question? This seems like a dictatorship to me. It's like no matter what the Central people say, SS do the action without objection.

Yea he arranged for the death but as I said above, the SS is a corrupt establishment. It's a dictatorship.

I don't remember Aizen ever saying he wanted to kill the King. We don't know what he wants to do when he gets there, but we cannot make such assumptions because the things that happen in mangas are usually not straightforward.

Stole a state secret? It's not that much of a secret if anyone could just waltz in a read up on it. That's like saying people stole information off the school bulletin board.

Just because he hangs out with hollows doesn't mean much. Why should his life be so controlled that he cannot choose where he wants to go live? It's not like he chose to go the SS. He either died and was sent there or was born there and when you go there you don't have much of a choice in the way of life. As I said, the SS are corrupt because they are a dictatorship. He didn't want to be controlled by such a corrupt establishment.

Yea, you forgot the part where those people tried to kill him.

This comes across as a rather desparate attempt to support the original poster's claims.

Firstly, Soul Society is ruled by a king, the Spirit King, who leaves the matter of governance to the Central 46, which if memory serves is composed of 6 judges and 40 wise men. Their is perhaps a stern rule. But claiming corruption and dictatorship is just flinging words around.

If this is a dictatorship then one can say that every historical king or ruling power is a dictator - and where is the evidence of corruption? To simply say king equals dictator and kingdom equals corrupt is inane. Corruption exists, but we have not been shown evidence of it here. Soul Society is an ordered, stable society for the most part. It has its share of flaws, no place is ever the model of perfection. But it works.

Then we have Aizen himself seeking to place himself in rulership over all, to end the vacancy on heaven's throne or however that translated. How is that automatically less a dictatorship than the poster claims Soul Society is?

Then we come to Aizen himself. His goals seem simple enough - to rule, and to gain power/strengthen himself. It might be that the second is simply a means to help gain the first. No matter.

Aizen is seriously determined in the process of strengthening himself. Almost fanatically so, when we see the lengths he went to to gain the Hougyoku. Many of the characters in Bleach are also concerned with making themselves stronger, it is not such a unique motivation.

Aizen is compared with Ichigo by one poster in this thread, and mention is made that they are not so different. One can well contend that they ARE. What is Ichigo's primary motivation for strengthening himself? It is in his very name - to protect. What is Aizen's primary motivation for strengthening himself - self interest and power. Aizen has no qualms in killing if it serves his own ends, Ichigo has every qualm, even sparing those it would be wiser to properly dispatch.

And I don't even know what sensible reason there was for whoever made mention of the atomic bomb - THAT is just sheer stupidity, no bones about it. Whatever its use in WWII, to use that as a justification for anything here in Bleach, here on this board, that is just idiocy at its very finest. What next, we see Godwin's law actually come into play? So, right or wrong, if there is any suggeston that Aizen is quite willing to sacrifice a multitude of souls in the creation of the ou-ken (and he has no problems with sacrificing his own arrancar and the Espada, we have seen, let alone a group of strangers) - then that surely suggests whether he is the good guy or the bad guy right there.

Zeus-Tails
December 05, 2007, 08:56 AM
I meant to say "totalitarian" instead of "dictatorship," however the concept is a shame.

Oh Neuroff, I believe Aizen did just that. Walk right in and take what he wanted. The Central 46 do not seem to be fighters so I imagine any shinigami with a good amount of strength can walk in and take care of business.

You don't think there is a corruption? A single party making all the decisions and all the people who are being governed will do what that single party says without question. They cannot think and make decisions for themselves. They have to abide by the word of this single party no matter how strange the command. The single party command the execution by the way of the execution bird for crimes that don't call for such extreme measures and NO ONE dares to openly question it. That's either because of fear to question it or brainwashing to believe that what the central party says is always right. That's generally what happens in a totalitarian state, kids.

Aizen wanting to take a place in the heavens shows his superiority complex. It's not necessarily the actions of a dictator. Again, we still do not know what Aizen's complete plan is going to accomplish. I mean let's say he did murder the Spirit King and take his place, do you think anyone in the SS would listen to him? I doubt it, so he would most likely be overthrown. This is why I doubt that his plans is just to be a simple dictator.

@MegaX: I believe not wanting to live in a corrupt, totalitarian state is justified, so that comment IS relevant. Also, MegaX, it seems you're not quite understanding of the concept of Hollow. It has been shown that only weak Hollows feed on humans. Menos and arrancar live in Hueco Mundo minding their business. Some eat each other but it was also stated that they can get nourishment in other ways. So why do Shinigami take it upon themselves to slay even these advanced hollows?
---Aizen overthrew the single party who is ruling in the way I described above. How is that different from a person who wants to stop the Nazi party and wanting to assassinate Hitler? He tried to kill Momo because he didn't want her to suffer without him. That's very similar to killing a dog who has been wounded by a car and you don't want it to suffer. Then he tried to kill Hitsugaya, which was simply self-defense.

@nordicbattlesigns: I'm impressed that you could sit there and come up with nonsense. THe A-bomb mention was a COMPARISON. Look the word up.

Neuroff
December 05, 2007, 09:39 AM
I meant to say "totalitarian" instead of "dictatorship," however the concept is a shame.
What you mean to say is that you spent all night trying to think of an excuse for how you actually thought a dictatorship could be a group of 46 people. And I'm guessing you tried to say the concept is the same, which it isn't.


Oh Neuroff, I believe Aizen did just that. Walk right in and take what he wanted. The Central 46 do not seem to be fighters so I imagine any shinigami with a good amount of strength can walk in and take care of business.
I wasn't aware that waltzing included killing everyone standing in your path. Reading off the school bulletin board is also now the equivalent of murdering anyone in your path.


You don't think there is a corruption? A single party making all the decisions and all the people who are being governed will do what that single party says without question. They cannot think and make decisions for themselves. They have to abide by the word of this single party no matter how strange the command. The single party command the execution by the way of the execution bird for crimes that don't call for such extreme measures and NO ONE dares to openly question it. That's either because of fear to question it or brainwashing to believe that what the central party says is always right. That's generally what happens in a totalitarian state, kids.
You again try to use Aizen's actions as evidence that Soul Society is corrupt. Please.

Nobody did anything to question them? Ukitake must never have appealed the decision and Hitsugaya didn't really go there to tell them to stop the execution.


Aizen wanting to take a place in the heavens shows his superiority complex. It's not necessarily the actions of a dictator. Again, we still do not know what Aizen's complete plan is going to accomplish. I mean let's say he did murder the Spirit King and take his place, do you think anyone in the SS would listen to him? I doubt it, so he would most likely be overthrown. This is why I doubt that his plans is just to be a simple dictator.
Yeah, after Aizen has absolute power, nobody will listen to him. They're just going to pretend that death isn't coming soon.


@MegaX: I believe not wanting to live in a corrupt, totalitarian state is justified, so that comment IS relevant. Also, MegaX, it seems you're not quite understanding of the concept of Hollow. It has been shown that only weak Hollows feed on humans. Menos and arrancar live in Hueco Mundo minding their business. Some eat each other but it was also stated that they can get nourishment in other ways. So why do Shinigami take it upon themselves to slay even these advanced hollows?
Yeah, Yammy eating all those human souls, that never happened. And the stronger hollows don't specifically target shinigami because their high spiritual power makes them taste good.


---Aizen overthrew the single party who is ruling in the way I described above. How is that different from a person who wants to stop the Nazi party and wanting to assassinate Hitler? He tried to kill Momo because he didn't want her to suffer without him. That's very similar to killing a dog who has been wounded by a car and you don't want it to suffer. Then he tried to kill Hitsugaya, which was simply self-defense.
There isn't a single example of The Central 46 ordering anything corrupt. Your "example" has nothing to do with their actions.

Zeus-Tails
December 05, 2007, 10:28 AM
What you mean to say is that you spent all night trying to think of an excuse for how you actually thought a dictatorship could be a group of 46 people. And I'm guessing you tried to say the concept is the same, which it isn't.

Actually the two concepts are very similar. "Totalitarian" is having absolute power in a group or dictator. "Dictatorship" is having absolute power in a single person. I just used the wrong word at the time but I know to correct myself. If you don't see how those two concepts are similar then your level of intelligence is lower than I thought.


I wasn't aware that waltzing included killing everyone standing in your path. Reading off the school bulletin board is also now the equivalent of murdering anyone in your path.

Comparing two things does not mean that they are equivalent. Do you even know the meaning of the words that you use? My point was he did it so easily. Furthermore, it's obvious that you can't read very well. I was comparing him taking information to a student getting information from the bulletin board. Good reading there, kid lol


You again try to use Aizen's actions as evidence that Soul Society is corrupt. Please.

Nobody did anything to question them? Ukitake must never have appealed the decision and Hitsugaya didn't really go there to tell them to stop the execution.

I didn't say Aizen's actions prove they are corrupt. I am saying that his actions are justified BECAUSE they are corrupt. There is a difference. A difference that you apparently don't understand.


Yeah, after Aizen has absolute power, nobody will listen to him. They're just going to pretend that death isn't coming soon.

If they are willing to fight him now, why would they suddenly stop fighting him later? Just because he takes out the king? That's highly unlikely.


Yeah, Yammy eating all those human souls, that never happened. And the stronger hollows don't specifically target shinigami because their high spiritual power makes them taste good.

Yammi didn't need to do that. He was just being stupid and Ulquiorra had to explain that they weren't staring at him. It's not like Aizen ordered Yammi to go there and do that. Aizen only sent Ulquiorra because he knws Ulquiorra is level-headed, but Yammi decided to tag along and act stupid. Don't blame all of the advanced hollows for Yammi's stupidity. The hollows that target shinigami are still the low-level hollows. The menos eat each other and the arrancar are nourished by other means. Those weaker hollows that prey on human and shinigami are like riff-raff in which Aizen doesn't control.


There isn't a single example of The Central 46 ordering anything corrupt. Your "example" has nothing to do with their actions.

I don't believe we've seen Central 46 give any orders at all. Aizen said he was giving the orders as soon as Rukia was spotted on Earth. Since we haven't seen the orders of the real Central 46, we have to go by the effect that past orders have on the society. From what I see, Ukitake was the only person who appealed by essentially no one listened. There is always a few people in a totalitarian state who are willingly to speak up but it would be a wasted effort because the other people are either too afraid to back it up or brainwashed into believing the central party is always right.

All Hitsugaya did was try to check things out. We don't know if he would have appealed to them or not. By how the SS acts, it seems to be a totalitarian state. Byakuya is an example of a person brainwashed. He has very little emotion and just listens to whatever the central party tells him as if he were a robot.

MegaX
December 05, 2007, 10:28 AM
I meant to say "totalitarian" instead of "dictatorship," however the concept is a shame.

The shame is that apparently you don't know your left from your right when it comes to government.


Oh Neuroff, I believe Aizen did just that. Walk right in and take what he wanted. The Central 46 do not seem to be fighters so I imagine any shinigami with a good amount of strength can walk in and take care of business.

So is that evidence of corruption, that they got killed? Or is it evidence that because you can possibly kill them you're automatically allowed entry? I'm honestly not seeing the point.


You don't think there is a corruption? A single party making all the decisions and all the people who are being governed will do what that single party says without question.

For more information see: Every military in the world ever.


They cannot think and make decisions for themselves. They have to abide by the word of this single party no matter how strange the command. The single party command the execution by the way of the execution bird for crimes that don't call for such extreme measures and NO ONE dares to openly question it. That's either because of fear to question it or brainwashing to believe that what the central party says is always right. That's generally what happens in a totalitarian state, kids.

So... interfering with the execution and destroying the object that will be doing the executing isn't considered open defiance? Or is the only way to show that by slaughtering people?


Aizen wanting to take a place in the heavens shows his superiority complex. It's not necessarily the actions of a dictator. Again, we still do not know what Aizen's complete plan is going to accomplish. I mean let's say he did murder the Spirit King and take his place, do you think anyone in the SS would listen to him? I doubt it, so he would most likely be overthrown. This is why I doubt that his plans is just to be a simple dictator.

"Yes he might commit regicide. So what? It's not like he's trying to hurt anyone..."

Let's forget, of course, that regicide is traditionally one of the worst crimes that can be committed in terms of seriousness and punishment.


@MegaX: I believe not wanting to live in a corrupt, totalitarian state is justified, so that comment IS relevant.

You're not understanding. Even if SS was wrong, that does not make Aizen right by default. Since we've already broken through to real-world examples with the A-bomb, let's use another. Stalin and the Soviet Union were allied with the US against Hitler. Hitler was evil. Does that make Stalin good by default?

If you say yes, then you have no sense.


Also, MegaX, it seems you're not quite understanding of the concept of Hollow. It has been shown that only weak Hollows feed on humans.

Grand Fisher and Yammy to name a few. Let's also not forget that Grimmjow ordered the initial wave to kill anyone with spiritual pressure.


Menos and arrancar live in Hueco Mundo minding their business. Some eat each other but it was also stated that they can get nourishment in other ways. So why do Shinigami take it upon themselves to slay even these advanced hollows?[quote]

I dunno. If they can get nourishment in other ways, why do they take it upon themselves to try and eat the tasty Shinigami?

[quote]Aizen overthrew the single party who is ruling in the way I described above. How is that different from a person who wants to stop the Nazi party and wanting to assassinate Hitler? He tried to kill Momo because he didn't want her to suffer without him. That's very similar to killing a dog who has been wounded by a car and you don't want it to suffer. Then he tried to kill Hitsugaya, which was simply self-defense.

That's not why he killed Hinamori. Try reading the manga again.


@nordicbattlesigns: I'm impressed that you could sit there and come up with nonsense. THe A-bomb mention was a COMPARISON. Look the word up.

Translation: Your opinion is different. It must be wrong.

Decorus
December 05, 2007, 11:02 AM
Aizen is not your typical Anime Villian in the fact that he is a complete and total wimp. All of his so called power comes from his Bankei. He can't lose as long as his Illusion power works, but without it he is just another weakling.

Of course Aizen might not even be a true shinigami, but rather the first Broken Mask, masquerading as a Shinigami.

Aizen is just another Anime villain in the fact that his plot is a tried and true take over the universe, because he is meant to rule.

How ever he does not fit the typical all powerful unstoppable force of destruction you typically find Shonen heroes fighting against. He just has a power that makes people think he is an all powerful force of destruction.

Zeus-Tails
December 05, 2007, 11:27 AM
The shame is that apparently you don't know your left from your right when it comes to government.

Oh really? Making one mistake on two words that are heavily related makes me not know my left arm from my right. You make no sense whatsoever.


So is that evidence of corruption, that they got killed? Or is it evidence that because you can possibly kill them you're automatically allowed entry? I'm honestly not seeing the point.

I believe in that point, I wasn't addressing the corruption. Maybe if you learn to read, you could identify the points where I addressed their corruption. I like how you are misplacing quotes with their appropriate ideas. It shows you don't know how to reason.


For more information see: Every military in the world ever.

Oh really, because I thought United States had multiple groups that check and balance each other. Oh, you didn't know that? It doesn't surprise me.


So... interfering with the execution and destroying the object that will be doing the executing isn't considered open defiance? Or is the only way to show that by slaughtering people?

I stated above that only Ukitake spoke out against it and I explained that there are some people who speak out in totalitarian states but most other people do not back them because of either fear or brainwashing. The only reason Ukitake's two subordinates and Kyoraku followed him was because they are very loyal to him.


"Yes he might commit regicide. So what? It's not like he's trying to hurt anyone..."

Let's forget, of course, that regicide is traditionally one of the worst crimes that can be committed in terms of seriousness and punishment.

Making up quotes now, because what I said in that point doesn't relate to that quote. Again, you show your inability to comprehend.


You're not understanding. Even if SS was wrong, that does not make Aizen right by default. Since we've already broken through to real-world examples with the A-bomb, let's use another. Stalin and the Soviet Union were allied with the US against Hitler. Hitler was evil. Does that make Stalin good by default?

If you say yes, then you have no sense.

Who said it was right by default? I said it was justified, because he wanted out and he took precautions to safely get himself out of there. If he just upped and quit, they would have arrested and executed him before he got far. Considering the examples you presented, I think you completely misunderstood what I am saying. Furthermore, Stalin going against Hitler means his actions are justified but it doesn't necessarily mean he, as a person, is good. You don't understand that? Oh, I am not surprised.


Grand Fisher and Yammy to name a few. Let's also not forget that Grimmjow ordered the initial wave to kill anyone with spiritual pressure.

[quote]Menos and arrancar live in Hueco Mundo minding their business. Some eat each other but it was also stated that they can get nourishment in other ways. So why do Shinigami take it upon themselves to slay even these advanced hollows?[quote]

I dunno. If they can get nourishment in other ways, why do they take it upon themselves to try and eat the tasty Shinigami?

Obviously, you didn't quite understand that Aizen didn't order Yammi, Grand Fisher nor Grimmjow to do those things. They did it on their own accord. Even with the Grand Fisher arrancar deal, Aizen's point was to test out the power of this lower arrancar against the shinigami (enemy) not to take down humans.

Hey, I am really starting to think you're dumb. Menos (meaning conscious Gillian, Adjucha and Vasto Lorde) feed on each other. They don't go looking for shinigami or humans to eat. The only ones who do that are lower hollows (including weak Gillian who are weaker than lieutenants). Arrancar certainly don't eat shinigami or humans because they are advanced enough to drink regular edible products such as tea.


That's not why he killed Hinamori. Try reading the manga again.

He specifically said that he didn't want her to suffer without him. Obviously, you cannot read well. She was brainwashed and she would have suffered without him (As evidenced later in the manga) so he killed her so she wouldn't suffer. Remember kids, reading is fundamental.


Translation: Your opinion is different. It must be wrong.

It wasn't his opinion on the subject matter. He was trying to tear down my comparison without fully understanding it. But I don't expect you to understand, MegaX.
[hr]

Aizen is not your typical Anime Villian in the fact that he is a complete and total wimp. All of his so called power comes from his Bankei. He can't lose as long as his Illusion power works, but without it he is just another weakling.

Of course Aizen might not even be a true shinigami, but rather the first Broken Mask, masquerading as a Shinigami.

Aizen is just another Anime villain in the fact that his plot is a tried and true take over the universe, because he is meant to rule.

How ever he does not fit the typical all powerful unstoppable force of destruction you typically find Shonen heroes fighting against. He just has a power that makes people think he is an all powerful force of destruction.

Wow, it sounds like you really hate Aizen. However, some of your statements are a bit off. You're referring to Aizen's shikai, not his bankai. Although his illusion shikai is useful, the fact of the matter is, he has been shown to have twice the reistu of the average captain which is pretty significant. Furthermore, it seems he uses his illusion technique to get through annoying situations faster, but he doesn't need to rely on it. He was able to take down Ichigo (who was healed by Orihime) with just his finger. He also caught Komamura's sword with ease. I'm pretty sure he can whip some tail without resorting to the illusions.

Decorus
December 05, 2007, 05:34 PM
His illusion is his Bankai, and no he didn't use 1 finger or catch a sword with ease. He merely made an illusion where he did. His Bankai is he can make illusions that are completely believable as to be unseperated from reality. He may be the weakest captain in existence with a really cool Bankai. I mean for all we know his reiatsu was an illusion.

Pay no attention to the Aizen behind the curtain of illusion....

Zeus-Tails
December 05, 2007, 05:50 PM
First off it's his shikai. We have not seen his bankai yet. Also, how could he have made Ichigo see an illusion when he hasn't even released his zanpakutoh in front of Ichigo. In order for someone to see the illusion they have to see him release, which Ichigo didn't. That proves that it was in fact his finger.

Reiatsu is an illusion? So the Hyogoku awakened for an illusion? Now you're just speaking nonsense.

Neuroff
December 05, 2007, 06:05 PM
Actually the two concepts are very similar. "Totalitarian" is having absolute power in a group or dictator. "Dictatorship" is having absolute power in a single person. I just used the wrong word at the time but I know to correct myself. If you don't see how those two concepts are similar then your level of intelligence is lower than I thought.
Wow, you are seriously ridiculous. You know how to correct yourself? LOL!


Comparing two things does not mean that they are equivalent. Do you even know the meaning of the words that you use? My point was he did it so easily. Furthermore, it's obvious that you can't read very well. I was comparing him taking information to a student getting information from the bulletin board. Good reading there, kid lol
No, those are exactly the conclusions you can make from your two statements. It takes very little reading comprehension to know that.


I didn't say Aizen's actions prove they are corrupt. I am saying that his actions are justified BECAUSE they are corrupt. There is a difference. A difference that you apparently don't understand.
And you have so much proof of their corruption. All you do is claim that they are totalitarian, with no proof other than what Aizen did while he was in their place.


If they are willing to fight him now, why would they suddenly stop fighting him later? Just because he takes out the king? That's highly unlikely.
When someone has absolute power, he can obviously kill those who oppose him. That's HIGHLY likely.


I don't believe we've seen Central 46 give any orders at all. Aizen said he was giving the orders as soon as Rukia was spotted on Earth. Since we haven't seen the orders of the real Central 46, we have to go by the effect that past orders have on the society. From what I see, Ukitake was the only person who appealed by essentially no one listened. There is always a few people in a totalitarian state who are willingly to speak up but it would be a wasted effort because the other people are either too afraid to back it up or brainwashed into believing the central party is always right.
Are you kidding? Ukitake was the only person, but somehow Kyouraku, Sentarou, Kiyone, and Nanao were right with him STOPPING the execution. Hitsugaya and Matsumoto broke the law by breaking into the Central 46 so that they could convince them to stop the execution. Renji also clearly wanted Byakuya to appeal to the Central 46. And this is only the people that they have SHOWN object objecting.

It's hilarious that you bring up nobody listening to Ukitake. IT WAS AIZEN IN THE CENTRAL 46, YOU ACTUALLY THINK HE WOULD LISTEN?


All Hitsugaya did was try to check things out. We don't know if he would have appealed to them or not. By how the SS acts, it seems to be a totalitarian state. Byakuya is an example of a person brainwashed. He has very little emotion and just listens to whatever the central party tells him as if he were a robot.
LOL, we don't know if Hitsugaya would have appealed. "The execution and release of Soukyoku... if it is all part of Ichimaru's plan... I can't just sit here and do nothing to stop it! Come, Matsumoto. Let's stop the execution."


Oh really, because I thought United States had multiple groups that check and balance each other. Oh, you didn't know that? It doesn't surprise me.
I wasn't aware of when the whole United States became part of the military.


I stated above that only Ukitake spoke out against it and I explained that there are some people who speak out in totalitarian states but most other people do not back them because of either fear or brainwashing. The only reason Ukitake's two subordinates and Kyoraku followed him was because they are very loyal to him.
Oh yeah, the man who is Ukitake's equal is just gonna follow him without thinking at all.


Who said it was right by default? I said it was justified, because he wanted out and he took precautions to safely get himself out of there. If he just upped and quit, they would have arrested and executed him before he got far. Considering the examples you presented, I think you completely misunderstood what I am saying. Furthermore, Stalin going against Hitler means his actions are justified but it doesn't necessarily mean he, as a person, is good. You don't understand that? Oh, I am not surprised.
If all he wanted was to leave, he could have just left. Nobody would have stopped him. But no, he decided to steal national secrets and kill people left and right before he did it.


Hey, I am really starting to think you're dumb. Menos (meaning conscious Gillian, Adjucha and Vasto Lorde) feed on each other. They don't go looking for shinigami or humans to eat. The only ones who do that are lower hollows (including weak Gillian who are weaker than lieutenants). Arrancar certainly don't eat shinigami or humans because they are advanced enough to drink regular edible products such as tea.
Yes, drinking tea suddenly makes them all completely civilized, and they are now basically human.


He specifically said that he didn't want her to suffer without him. Obviously, you cannot read well. She was brainwashed and she would have suffered without him (As evidenced later in the manga) so he killed her so she wouldn't suffer. Remember kids, reading is fundamental.
And who did the brainwashing? Aizen. If he had left her alone, she would be completely fine.


It wasn't his opinion on the subject matter. He was trying to tear down my comparison without fully understanding it. But I don't expect you to understand, MegaX.
It's obvious that you're the one here who doesn't understand. The man who doesn't even know a dictatorship is ruled by a single person is once again trying to act superior.

Zeus-Tails
December 05, 2007, 06:36 PM
Wow, you are seriously ridiculous. You know how to correct yourself? LOL!

It's ridiculous to correct yourself? Oh so that's why every time YOU are wrong (which is many), you just move on like it never happened. Good job, kid LOL!!!!!!


No, those are exactly the conclusions you can make from your two statements. It takes very little reading comprehension to know that.

How can you make conclusions about two things that I'm not comparing? I'm comparing factors A and B and then you bring in factor C and compare factor C and B and draw a conclusion from it out of nowhere. You amuse me, kid. Very much.


And you have so much proof of their corruption. All you do is claim that they are totalitarian, with no proof other than what Aizen did while he was in their place.

Claim they are totalitarian. Do you know the definition? It means absolute power resides in a single party. In this case, it's Central 46. That shows it's a totalitarian society. Seriously, look up the words before speaking to me. At least educate yourself before attempting to argue with the likes of me.


When someone has absolute power, he can obviously kill those who oppose him. That's HIGHLY likely.

First off, who says killing the king would give him absolute power. Second off, what would change when he killed the king (besides the king being dead)? He would still have the same army and powers. The same army and powers that the Soul Society are going against now. If he can kill anyone he likes after killing the king, then he should be able to kill them before killing the king as well. You think the second he kills the king, everyone is going to drop their weapon and say "Oh, I guess we serve him now. Let's go home"? ROFL!!


Are you kidding? Ukitake was the only person, but somehow Kyouraku, Sentarou, Kiyone, and Nanao were right with him STOPPING the execution. Hitsugaya and Matsumoto broke the law by breaking into the Central 46 so that they could convince them to stop the execution. Renji also clearly wanted Byakuya to appeal to the Central 46. And this is only the people that they have SHOWN object objecting.

It's hilarious that you bring up nobody listening to Ukitake. IT WAS AIZEN IN THE CENTRAL 46, YOU ACTUALLY THINK HE WOULD LISTEN?

Did you actually read my posts above carefully? Renji wanted Byakuya to appeal but neither of them did. Renji obviously out of fear and Byakuya as a brainwashed fighter. Ukitake was the only one who truly wanted to go against them. Kyoraku, Sentarou and Kiyone merely followed his lead because Kyoraku is his best friend and does whatever he does and Sentarou and Kyone are basically his shadows and they do EVERYTHING he does . Nanao didn't try to stop anything. She just followed her captain without knowing what the hell was going on.

Also, you think if the real Central 46 were set on executing RUkia that they'd listen to one captain? Even Yamamoto, who trusted Ukitake and Kyoraku's judgment didn't want to hear them explain.


LOL, we don't know if Hitsugaya would have appealed. "The execution and release of Soukyoku... if it is all part of Ichimaru's plan... I can't just sit here and do nothing to stop it! Come, Matsumoto. Let's stop the execution."

Also notice how instead of going to the execution grounds to stop it, he goes straight for Central 46. His main focus was to see what was going on with them. If he really wanted to stop it, why wouldn't he go there first. Even if he could appeal and convince them, you think they'd have the time to stop it? COuld they reverse time? He got there AFTER Ichigo stopped it and Ichigo started to fight Byakuya. For all he knew, Rukia is already dead, the bird has been activated and Gin succeeded with his plan.


I wasn't aware of when the whole United States became part of the military.

I'm pretty sure United States HAS a military. He was speaking of the country's military and the U.S. military is governed like the rest of the U.S. - by the 3 branches who have checks and balances.


Oh yeah, the man who is Ukitake's equal is just gonna follow him without thinking at all.

I'm pretty sure it was said that they are best friends and he goes along with Ukitake's plans because he trusts his judgment. I thought that was painfully obvious.


If all he wanted was to leave, he could have just left. Nobody would have stopped him. But no, he decided to steal national secrets and kill people left and right before he did it.

He wanted the Hyogoku and to leave. TO get the Hyogoku he had to get Rukia. They arrested Rukia for staying in the human world too long and for transferring her powers. You don't think they'd come after Aizen for leaving to live in Hueco Mundo? LOL! You're so naive. Also, for him to safely get the Hyogoku, he'd need to show his hand and then they'd definitely chase him. He took the necessary precautions to get out safely with the Hyogoku. Kill people? You mean the person who would mentally suffer without him (He said he didn't want her to suffer), the totalitarian party and the people trying to kill him? Oh yes, wow. We're talking about people who kill other beings for a living.


Yes, drinking tea suddenly makes them all completely civilized, and they are now basically human.

Who said anything about civilized (even though to an extent they are)? I said they were advanced. The whole point was that they could drink stuff like tea and not need nourishment from humans or shinigami. Wow, you seriously cannot read.


And who did the brainwashing? Aizen. If he had left her alone, she would be completely fine.

She was willing to do whatever he wanted because she liked him. I'm pretty sure she would have acted the same way even if all he did was open up to her and be nice to her. She was already brainwashed halfway in a sense because she was so infatuated with him.


It's obvious that you're the one here who doesn't understand. The man who doesn't even know a dictatorship is ruled by a single person is once again trying to act superior.

See, this once again proves your low intelligence. You actually think me mixing up two terms, one time, because of their similar meaning means much. I know I am superior to you in debate and the ability to reason. Reasoning is one of the things that proves one's intelligence. Looking and trying to capitalize on silly mistakes such as typos and mixing up of similar words shows your pathetic nature. You cannot sensibly argue the topic (because you're not intelligent), so you go off on random, irrelevant tangents (this is also known as avoiding the topic). It's common in many individuals who are too stubborn to realize that they cannot reason well. If you know about psychology, you would know what I am talking about. It wouldn't surprise me if you don't understand where I'm coming from, though.

MegaX
December 05, 2007, 06:39 PM
Oh really? Making one mistake on two words that are heavily related makes me not know my left arm from my right. You make no sense whatsoever.

Coming from the man who didn't really even acknowledge a mistake, but handwaved it by saying that the concept behind it is the same -- or at least that's what I assume you meant. Otherwise you don't make much sense, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.



I believe in that point, I wasn't addressing the corruption. Maybe if you learn to read, you could identify the points where I addressed their corruption. I like how you are misplacing quotes with their appropriate ideas. It shows you don't know how to reason.

You were entirely unclear on that point and I was trying to figure out what you meant. As for addressing the points about corruption, I'll do so once you post them.


Oh really, because I thought United States had multiple groups that check and balance each other. Oh, you didn't know that? It doesn't surprise me.

Excellent strawman. This time try addressing my argument instead.


I stated above that only Ukitake spoke out against it and I explained that there are some people who speak out in totalitarian states but most other people do not back them because of either fear or brainwashing. The only reason Ukitake's two subordinates and Kyoraku followed him was because they are very loyal to him.

Prove that fear and/or brainwashing are the cause.


Making up quotes now, because what I said in that point doesn't relate to that quote. Again, you show your inability to comprehend.

Paraphrasing, actually.



Who said it was right by default? I said it was justified, because he wanted out and he took precautions to safely get himself out of there. If he just upped and quit, they would have arrested and executed him before he got far. Considering the examples you presented, I think you completely misunderstood what I am saying. Furthermore, Stalin going against Hitler means his actions are justified but it doesn't necessarily mean he, as a person, is good. You don't understand that? Oh, I am not surprised.

Your argument so far has consisted of the premise that Aizen is good, because SS is bad (a claim that you have laughingly failed to adequately support). I'm using that example because just because one group is wrong, doesn't mean that the other is right. They could both be wrong for instance.

You don't understand that? No surprises there, blatant denial of reality can do that.


Grand Fisher and Yammy to name a few. Let's also not forget that Grimmjow ordered the initial wave to kill anyone with spiritual pressure.

[quote]Menos and arrancar live in Hueco Mundo minding their business. Some eat each other but it was also stated that they can get nourishment in other ways. So why do Shinigami take it upon themselves to slay even these advanced hollows?

[quote]Obviously, you didn't quite understand that Aizen didn't order Yammi, Grand Fisher nor Grimmjow to do those things. They did it on their own accord. Even with the Grand Fisher arrancar deal, Aizen's point was to test out the power of this lower arrancar against the shinigami (enemy) not to take down humans.

Learn to read. I didn't tie Aizen to them any farther than that he was allied with them which solidified his status as an enemy. Whether or not he ordered them to is entirely irrelevant. This is just about the Hollows and Arrancars.

Also note that my Grand Fisher point is in reference to him as a Hollow, not as an Arrancar. My apologies if that was not clear.


Hey, I am really starting to think you're dumb.

Cute. I don't give a damn, incidentally.


Menos (meaning conscious Gillian, Adjucha and Vasto Lorde) feed on each other. They don't go looking for shinigami or humans to eat.

But they often do when they encounter them and even if they don't for some reason, they still try to kill them and innocent humans. But apparently chaotic forces of destruction can do no wrong in your eyes.


The only ones who do that are lower hollows (including weak Gillian who are weaker than lieutenants). Arrancar certainly don't eat shinigami or humans because they are advanced enough to drink regular edible products such as tea.

Yammy ate souls. But I guess evidence from the manga doesn't count.


He specifically said that he didn't want her to suffer without him. Obviously, you cannot read well. She was brainwashed and she would have suffered without him (As evidenced later in the manga) so he killed her so she wouldn't suffer. Remember kids, reading is fundamental

Good job missing that he brainwashed her in the first place. In fact, doesn't he admit that he "killed" her because admiration is farthest from understanding or something like that?


It wasn't his opinion on the subject matter. He was trying to tear down my comparison without fully understanding it. But I don't expect you to understand, MegaX.

You're right on this one, actually. It wasn't opinion. I re-read it and the post was pretty factual.

Thanks for catching me on this one. :)

Zeus-Tails
December 05, 2007, 07:05 PM
Coming from the man who didn't really even acknowledge a mistake, but handwaved it by saying that the concept behind it is the same -- or at least that's what I assume you meant. Otherwise you don't make much sense, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm pretty sure I admitted the mistake but I also said the concept are the same, which they are.


You were entirely unclear on that point and I was trying to figure out what you meant. As for addressing the points about corruption, I'll do so once you post them.

Well, you're late about a few posts ago as I talked about the fear and brainwashing already. Oh wait, you can't read well. I forgot.


Excellent strawman. This time try addressing my argument instead.

Oh you're talking about the military? The group that is controlled by the U.S. and the U.S. is governed by 3 branches with checks and balances? I guess that's totally irrelevant, right? Especially since I was talking about "totalitarian" which is a type of government. I guess relating that to a democracy, which is another type of government, is totally irrelevant, right? LOL!


Prove that fear and/or brainwashing are the cause.

I guess you never learned in school that you can deduce a cause by en effect. The effect is the way the society acts. You don't think the cause is how they live their life? Oh right, you are the type of person who only comprehends when something is written in stone. Making deductions is out of the question.


Paraphrasing, actually.

Paraphrasing involves expressing the idea in different words, not making up a new thought.


Your argument so far has consisted of the premise that Aizen is good, because SS is bad (a claim that you have laughingly failed to adequately support). I'm using that example because just because one group is wrong, doesn't mean that the other is right. They could both be wrong for instance.

You don't understand that? No surprises there, blatant denial of reality can do that.

[QUOTE=MegaX;636403]Grand Fisher and Yammy to name a few. Let's also not forget that Grimmjow ordered the initial wave to kill anyone with spiritual pressure.

[quote]Menos and arrancar live in Hueco Mundo minding their business. Some eat each other but it was also stated that they can get nourishment in other ways. So why do Shinigami take it upon themselves to slay even these advanced hollows?

Didn't I just say in my previous post that his actions were justified and just because the action is justified doesn't mean the person is necessarily good? I'm pretty sure the title says "Not a Typical Villain?" This means I know he IS a villain but he's not the average villain or didn't you understand that? My premise is saying that his actions are JUSTIFIED. Being justified does NOT go hand in hand with being a good person. Obviously, you cannot understand that. I'm not surprised.


Learn to read. I didn't tie Aizen to them any farther than that he was allied with them which solidified his status as an enemy. Whether or not he ordered them to is entirely irrelevant. This is just about the Hollows and Arrancars.

Also note that my Grand Fisher point is in reference to him as a Hollow, not as an Arrancar. My apologies if that was not clear.

So let's say you're friends with someone and that guy robs and store. Are you also responsible for it? Is Aizen responsible for everything Yammi does? Is he the babysister? No. Being friends/allies with them doesn't mean he is responsible for their actions unless he specifically ordered them to do so and last I remember, he didn't even order Yammi to go with Ulquiorra. Yammi just tagged along.

How is a topic which focuses on Aizen go off on the tangent of hollows and arrancars anyway? Just because he is allied with them? Do I need to repeat the friend being a robber comparison again? Furthermore, not all hollows/arrancar act the same. Do you see Ulquiorra killing people for no reason? Nope.


Cute. I don't give a damn, incidentally.

Well, apparently, you do since you took the time to respond to that specific point. Oh, that's psychology. You don't understand that. Don't hurt yourself trying to comprehend now.


But they often do when they encounter them and even if they don't for some reason, they still try to kill them and innocent humans. But apparently chaotic forces of destruction can do no wrong in your eyes.

Wow, even though they don't leave Hueco Mundo (only lower hollows do), they still encounter shinigami a lot. That's impressive. I didn't know a lot of shinigami live in Hueco Mundo. And obviously if a shinigami is trespassing as known enemies, they are going to do something about it.


Yammy ate souls. But I guess evidence from the manga doesn't count.

Oh, you missed the part where Yammi was doing that because he thought they were disrespecting him? Ulquiorra had to correct him for his stupidity. Yammi didn't need to do that. He did it because he wanted to. Obviously, if one arrancar acts one way then they all act the same way right? LOL!!


Good job missing that he brainwashed her in the first place. In fact, doesn't he admit that he "killed" her because admiration is farthest from understanding or something like that?

He brainwashed a person who was already head-over-heels for him and would do anything for him. Not exactly hard to do. He knew she wouldn't understand what he was doing and and she would suffer mentally and emotionally if he left her alive so he decided to not make her go through that torture.


You're right on this one, actually. It wasn't opinion. I re-read it and the post was pretty factual.

Thanks for catching me on this one. :)

I caught you on everything. You're in the same boat as him. You don't understand what you're talking about, yet you continue to talk about the subject. Not a surprised though. It's human nature to be stubborn to some extent, even if you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. I expect that from people, like you, with such an inferior level of intellect.

MegaX
December 05, 2007, 07:36 PM
For the record, I'm going to try and cut back on the insults and flaming, and I would ask you to do the same, Zeus-Tails. It's reflects badly on us as debaters.


I'm pretty sure I admitted the mistake but I also said the concept are the same, which they are.

In a sense, yeah. But SS always struck me as more of an oligarchy.


Oh you're talking about the military? The group that is controlled by the U.S. and the U.S. is governed by 3 branches with checks and balances? I guess that's totally irrelevant, right? Especially since I was talking about "totalitarian" which is a type of government. I guess relating that to a democracy, which is another type of government, is totally irrelevant, right? LOL!

Irrelevant to my point at least. The Gotei 13 is a military installation. The Central 46 is a government installation. While the governmental structure is relevant to the discussion overall, it is not relevant to this point.

What I mean is that regardless of the type of government, it has a relationship to its military that functions the same as virtually every government does to its military. It orders, military does without question.


I guess you never learned in school that you can deduce a cause by en effect. The effect is the way the society acts. You don't think the cause is how they live their life? Oh right, you are the type of person who only comprehends when something is written in stone. Making deductions is out of the question.

It's not quite fair to say that the reason objections weren't raised was out of fear. First of all, the military generally does not raise objections to government decisions, as their job is to just do it. Secondly, the fact that many people found this to be unusual indicates that the Central 46 chambers is doing something out of the ordinary.

What does this mean? It could mean anything and could be irrelevant, but it could also mean that people didn't consider objecting because it just didn't ever need to be done in the past. They could have assumed that the Central 46 knew more than it was letting on, and had a valid reason to execute her.

The problem is that we can't know, because there were too many circumstances that forced them to divert attention elsewhere. Ichigo's group attacking them to save her for starters, which may have led some to believe that she should be executed for giving them the power to intrude. And then Aizen's "murder" further complicate things.

It's tough, therefore, to isolate causes and other variables as explanations for specific actions and frames of mind at the time.



Didn't I just say in my previous post that his actions were justified and just because the action is justified doesn't mean the person is necessarily good? I'm pretty sure the title says "Not a Typical Villain?" This means I know he IS a villain but he's not the average villain or didn't you understand that? My premise is saying that his actions are JUSTIFIED. Being justified does NOT go hand in hand with being a good person. Obviously, you cannot understand that. I'm not surprised.

You make an interesting point, but are the actions justified if they're taken for a reason that has nothing to do with the government's rule? We have no reason to believe that Aizen wanted to act against the government for any reason other than to himself become king.


So let's say you're friends with someone and that guy robs and store. Are you also responsible for it? Is Aizen responsible for everything Yammi does? Is he the babysister? No. Being friends/allies with them doesn't mean he is responsible for their actions unless he specifically ordered them to do so and last I remember, he didn't even order Yammi to go with Ulquiorra. Yammi just tagged along.


How is a topic which focuses on Aizen go off on the tangent of hollows and arrancars anyway? Just because he is allied with them? Do I need to repeat the friend being a robber comparison again? Furthermore, not all hollows/arrancar act the same. Do you see Ulquiorra killing people for no reason? Nope.


This has nothing to do with Aizen. This came up when I mentioned that one of Aizen's actions that led to his being classified an enemy was defecting to the Hollows which are established enemies of the Shinigami. You then proceeded to ask what was so wrong about the Hollows.

None of this has anything to do with Aizen other than that he willingly teamed up with forces hostile to the Shinigami.


Well, apparently, you do since you took the time to respond to that specific point. Oh, that's psychology. You don't understand that. Don't hurt yourself trying to comprehend now.

With all due respect, your superiority complex is only antagonizing people, not adding to your argument. I was merely trying to show you that.


Wow, even though they don't leave Hueco Mundo (only lower hollows do), they still encounter shinigami a lot. That's impressive. I didn't know a lot of shinigami live in Hueco Mundo. And obviously if a shinigami is trespassing as known enemies, they are going to do something about it.

Explain the Menos in Karakura Town as well as the ones that appeared in SS.


Oh, you missed the part where Yammi was doing that because he thought they were disrespecting him? Ulquiorra had to correct him for his stupidity. Yammi didn't need to do that. He did it because he wanted to. Obviously, if one arrancar acts one way then they all act the same way right? LOL!!

This only adds to the Hollows = bad argument. If he didn't even need to eat the souls to nourish himself, just for the sake of his whims.

I'm aware that this is just Yammy, however. But I doubt I need to make an argument for the evil nature of the majority of the Arrancar. I will however make an exception (pending further Kubo reveals) for Nell and Wonderweiss for whom we have learned little about, and have been born only recently, respectively.


He brainwashed a person who was already head-over-heels for him and would do anything for him. Not exactly hard to do. He knew she wouldn't understand what he was doing and and she would suffer mentally and emotionally if he left her alive so he decided to not make her go through that torture.

I'd hazard that you're putting the cart before the horse.


I caught you on everything. You're in the same boat as him. You don't understand what you're talking about, yet you continue to talk about the subject. Not a surprised though. It's human nature to be stubborn to some extent, even if you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. I expect that from people, like you, with such an inferior level of intellect.

Anyone can claim a superior level of intellect. And because of the internet, it may or may not be true. But don't throw it around like the statement should awe or intimidate us.

Neuroff
December 05, 2007, 07:42 PM
It's ridiculous to correct yourself? Oh so that's why every time YOU are wrong (which is many), you just move on like it never happened. Good job, kid LOL!!!!!!
It's ridiculous to claim that you actually knew what you were talking about, when you don't even know what a dictatorship is.


How can you make conclusions about two things that I'm not comparing? I'm comparing factors A and B and then you bring in factor C and compare factor C and B and draw a conclusion from it out of nowhere. You amuse me, kid. Very much.
Yeah, you weren't comparing them, all you did was call them the same thing.

"It's not that much of a secret if anyone could just waltz in a read up on it. That's like saying people stole information off the school bulletin board."

"Oh Neuroff, I believe Aizen did just that. Walk right in and take what he wanted. The Central 46 do not seem to be fighters so I imagine any shinigami with a good amount of strength can walk in and take care of business."

So waltzing in in and reading off a school bulletin board is just like killing everyone in your path to get information from a library where entry is forbidden. It's clear that you didn't even know the information was stored in the Central 46 Library.


Claim they are totalitarian. Do you know the definition? It means absolute power resides in a single party. In this case, it's Central 46. That shows it's a totalitarian society. Seriously, look up the words before speaking to me. At least educate yourself before attempting to argue with the likes of me.
to·tal·i·tar·i·an /toʊˌtælɪˈtɛəriən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[toh-tal-i-tair-ee-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to a centralized government that does not tolerate parties of differing opinion and that exercises dictatorial control over many aspects of life.
2. exercising control over the freedom, will, or thought of others; authoritarian; autocratic.
–noun
3. an adherent of totalitarianism.

Where is your proof that there is only a single political party in Soul Society? Where is your proof that they don't allow the members of Soul Society to exercise free will?


First off, who says killing the king would give him absolute power. Second off, what would change when he killed the king (besides the king being dead)? He would still have the same army and powers. The same army and powers that the Soul Society are going against now. If he can kill anyone he likes after killing the king, then he should be able to kill them before killing the king as well. You think the second he kills the king, everyone is going to drop their weapon and say "Oh, I guess we serve him now. Let's go home"? ROFL!!
Because Aizen obviously has to fight Soul Society BEFORE he kills the King. You think with nobody left to fight him, anyone can oppose him?


Did you actually read my posts above carefully? Renji wanted Byakuya to appeal but neither of them did. Renji obviously out of fear and Byakuya as a brainwashed fighter.
More like he wanted Byakuya to appeal because the words of a captain would hold more influence.


Ukitake was the only one who truly wanted to go against them. Kyoraku, Sentarou and Kiyone merely followed his lead because Kyoraku is his best friend and does whatever he does and Sentarou and Kyone are basically his shadows and they do EVERYTHING he does .
LOL, Kyouraku does whatever Ukitake does. That speech about following your path of justice, what he actually meant was that you just follow anything your friends do.

Sentarou and Kiyone also never showed any signs of caring about Rukia. They told her they would help her because they are robots.


Nanao didn't try to stop anything. She just followed her captain without knowing what the hell was going on.
And when Kyouraku mentions that Nanao is looking sad at Rukia's execution, that doesn't mean anything.


Also, you think if the real Central 46 were set on executing RUkia that they'd listen to one captain? Even Yamamoto, who trusted Ukitake and Kyoraku's judgment didn't want to hear them explain.
You must know this because you're psychic, and you've read Kubo's thoughts.


Also notice how instead of going to the execution grounds to stop it, he goes straight for Central 46. His main focus was to see what was going on with them. If he really wanted to stop it, why wouldn't he go there first. Even if he could appeal and convince them, you think they'd have the time to stop it? COuld they reverse time? He got there AFTER Ichigo stopped it and Ichigo started to fight Byakuya. For all he knew, Rukia is already dead, the bird has been activated and Gin succeeded with his plan.
This matters how? The fact is that Hitsugaya made an effort to stop the execution.


I'm pretty sure it was said that they are best friends and he goes along with Ukitake's plans because he trusts his judgment. I thought that was painfully obvious.
Except that it's not written anywhere.


He wanted the Hyogoku and to leave. TO get the Hyogoku he had to get Rukia. They arrested Rukia for staying in the human world too long and for transferring her powers. You don't think they'd come after Aizen for leaving to live in Hueco Mundo? LOL! You're so naive. Also, for him to safely get the Hyogoku, he'd need to show his hand and then they'd definitely chase him. He took the necessary precautions to get out safely with the Hyogoku. Kill people? You mean the person who would mentally suffer without him (He said he didn't want her to suffer), the totalitarian party and the people trying to kill him? Oh yes, wow. We're talking about people who kill other beings for a living.
Yeah, escaping a society MUST include obtaining power.


Who said anything about civilized (even though to an extent they are)? I said they were advanced. The whole point was that they could drink stuff like tea and not need nourishment from humans or shinigami. Wow, you seriously cannot read.
Drinking tea has absolutely nothing to do with obtaining nourishment. Maybe you should try living off of tea for a month.


She was willing to do whatever he wanted because she liked him. I'm pretty sure she would have acted the same way even if all he did was open up to her and be nice to her. She was already brainwashed halfway in a sense because she was so infatuated with him.
Doesn't even come close to justifying anything.


See, this once again proves your low intelligence. You actually think me mixing up two terms, one time, because of their similar meaning means much. I know I am superior to you in debate and the ability to reason. Reasoning is one of the things that proves one's intelligence. Looking and trying to capitalize on silly mistakes such as typos and mixing up of similar words shows your pathetic nature. You cannot sensibly argue the topic (because you're not intelligent), so you go off on random, irrelevant tangents (this is also known as avoiding the topic). It's common in many individuals who are too stubborn to realize that they cannot reason well. If you know about psychology, you would know what I am talking about. It wouldn't surprise me if you don't understand where I'm coming from, though.
LOL, we're the ones avoiding the topic. Your evidence is based purely on baseless assumptions and made-up facts, but what that actually means is that your reasoning skills are awesome.

MegaX
December 05, 2007, 07:47 PM
Incidentally, chapter 245 pg 16 talks about how the main food source of Hollows is humans, but the small ones can live off the atmosphere in Hueco Mundo.

Zeus-Tails
December 05, 2007, 08:08 PM
For the record, I'm going to try and cut back on the insults and flaming, and I would ask you to do the same, Zeus-Tails. It's reflects badly on us as debaters.

Sure


In a sense, yeah. But SS always struck me as more of an oligarchy.

They still fit the concept of totalitarian as all the governing power resides in the Central 46.


Irrelevant to my point at least. The Gotei 13 is a military installation. The Central 46 is a government installation. While the governmental structure is relevant to the discussion overall, it is not relevant to this point.

What I mean is that regardless of the type of government, it has a relationship to its military that functions the same as virtually every government does to its military. It orders, military does without question.[QUOTE=MegaX;636929]

Well, it is relevant. See the government governs the people and the military is part of the people. When I describe them as totalitarian, I am assigned a type of government. Democracy is a type of government just like a totalitarian society.

Yes, the military is supposed to listen but the main point is that the decision-making that controls the military is different across different types of government. The decisions in this society is made by a single party, Central 46. The decisions made in the U.S. has a smaller chance of being a corrupt one since there are 3 separate branches watching over the decisions.

[QUOTE=MegaX;636929]It's not quite fair to say that the reason objections weren't raised was out of fear. First of all, the military generally does not raise objections to government decisions, as their job is to just do it. Secondly, the fact that many people found this to be unusual indicates that the Central 46 chambers is doing something out of the ordinary.

What does this mean? It could mean anything and could be irrelevant, but it could also mean that people didn't consider objecting because it just didn't ever need to be done in the past. They could have assumed that the Central 46 knew more than it was letting on, and had a valid reason to execute her.

The problem is that we can't know, because there were too many circumstances that forced them to divert attention elsewhere. Ichigo's group attacking them to save her for starters, which may have led some to believe that she should be executed for giving them the power to intrude. And then Aizen's "murder" further complicate things.

It's tough, therefore, to isolate causes and other variables as explanations for specific actions and frames of mind at the time.

You have to also consider the demeanor of Yamamoto. It does not seem that he had a single objection. Like Byakuya he followed the orders without question and enforced them. The fact that Yamamoto was so content with following a command that was out of the ordinary showed how much control the Central 46 had over the society. For Yamamoto to not even think about the command shows that growing up in the society, he learned not to question them. He must of learned that from experience living there.

Yes, the military should do what they are told, but soldiers are able to go against commands if they don't feel it is justified. Those kind of solders would be dishonorably discharged, but at least they aren't killed. Yamamoto was ready to cut off two people, who he treated like sons, because they did one act that went against the rules.



You make an interesting point, but are the actions justified if they're taken for a reason that has nothing to do with the government's rule? We have no reason to believe that Aizen wanted to act against the government for any reason other than to himself become king.

From the what I read, Aizen seemed to have a typical rebellious personality. He was rebelling against the society and the government. This type of behavior is usually due to the person not agreeing how things are run. Yes, part of the reason he left was to seek more power, but I cannot shake off the rebellious nature in which he did things.


This has nothing to do with Aizen. This came up when I mentioned that one of Aizen's actions that led to his being classified an enemy was defecting to the Hollows which are established enemies of the Shinigami. You then proceeded to ask what was so wrong about the Hollows.

None of this has anything to do with Aizen other than that he willingly teamed up with forces hostile to the Shinigami.

Some hollows do bad things and the same can be same for some shinigami (look at Mayuri; the guy is willing to massacre his own men). That's no reason to classify all hollows the same way. You don't see the advanced hollows coming out to hunt people. Same with arrancar. I mean look at Nell! She seemed more civilized and good-natured than most of the shinigami.


With all due respect, your superiority complex is only antagonizing people, not adding to your argument. I was merely trying to show you that.

To be honest, I only patronize people who are too stubborn to admit their obvious mistakes in reasoning (mainly Neuroff). He seems to be on a high horse that he shouldn't be on so it's amusing to knock him down several notches just by showing him his many flaws.


Explain the Menos in Karakura Town as well as the ones that appeared in SS.

I already said those are the lower Gillians. I group them with the lower hollows. THose are the gillians without a conscious. You don't see Gillians like Shawlong entering Earth to attack humans. The Gillians in SS are the same lower, no-conscious Gillian, but they were just saving Aizen, not attacking.


This only adds to the Hollows = bad argument. If he didn't even need to eat the souls to nourish himself, just for the sake of his whims.

I'm aware that this is just Yammy, however. But I doubt I need to make an argument for the evil nature of the majority of the Arrancar. I will however make an exception (pending further Kubo reveals) for Nell and Wonderweiss for whom we have learned little about, and have been born only recently, respectively.

My point is you cannot judge all of them by one's action. The nature of most hollows doesn't seem evil. They just want to be stronger. Unfortunately for the adjucha and gillian, getting stronger means feeding on others. As arrancar, they can train to get stronger, however. Shinigami have the same goals - to get stronger. At least, the majority of them do.


I'd hazard that you're putting the cart before the horse.

Actually, I think it was stated that the reason it was so easy for him to it was because she was infatuated with him. She worked hard to be his lieutenant because she was infatuated.

Also, Aizen wanted to put her out of her misery but he stated that he didn't want to do it himself. That shows that he has some remorse especially since he held back against Renji so he wouldn't kill him.


Anyone can claim a superior level of intellect. And because of the internet, it may or may not be true. But don't throw it around like the statement should awe or intimidate us.

Intellect is proven by what you say and do. Reasoning takes knowledge of facts pertaining to the topic, logic, common sense and psychology. To reason well shows that you are pretty smart. Reasoning can be showed online in words.
[hr]

Incidentally, chapter 245 pg 16 talks about how the main food source of Hollows is humans, but the small ones can live off the atmosphere in Hueco Mundo.

That's what Ichigo stated and that's only what he thought because he only came into contact with the weaker hollows. He never came in contact with conscious Gillians, adjucha and Vasto Lorde. He also didn't know much about arrancar so he just assumed they were like other hollows. In the later chapters we learned that conscious gillians and adjucha feed on other hollows. Furthermore, arrancar are able to drink tea. That pretty much makes it unnecessary for them to go to Earth to feed.

Decorus
December 05, 2007, 11:28 PM
Byakuya was letting them execute Rukia, not because he wanted her to die or was brainwashed or even the fact that he agreed with the law.

He was going to let her die, because he had promised himself to uphold the Laws of Soul Society. Rukia had broken them and the people in charge decided to execute her as punishment.

Rukia was guilty thats the end of the debate. The punishment may not have fit the crime, but Byakuya had to keep his promise to uphold the law, after all if he failed to uphold the law then who would?

Byakuya's own moral code was creating a conflict in himself, but given his past where he broke the laws in marrying Rukia's sister and then promising to take care of Rukia when her sister died he chose the law over his duty to his family.

Ichigo in a similar situation would have chosen to break the law, because he felt such a law is wrong to have in the first place.

Renji did not protest it because he was forbidden to by his commanding officer. not that protesting would have mattered since Aizen had killed the Council months earlier.