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bax
December 07, 2007, 04:28 PM
The Raw is out, get it here: Bleach -15 R/T/S (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22958)




Please post pictures, summaries and scripts of the upcoming chapter here. Translations are also welcome and appreciated. Posts that do not contain any of those will be either deleted or moved as necessary. If you would like to discuss the spoilers or thank people for them or their translations please go to the Spoiler Discussion (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=639545#post639545) thread.

Have fun. ^^

Important Notes:

Please read THIS (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17372).

Please do not post babelfish/google translations. For the most part they are just confusing and wrong. So feel free to do them for your own benefit, but don't post them here. You can post them in the discussion threads, but here, just wait for the real translators to get around to it.

Even though we really appreciate international translations and cleaned spoiler pictures please post them with spoiler tags to guarantee a easy overview for the thread.

Thanks.

fxu
December 12, 2007, 07:10 AM
Please post pictures, summaries and scripts of the upcoming chapter here. Translations are also welcome and appreciated. Posts that do not contain any of those will be either deleted or moved as necessary. If you would like to discuss the spoilers or thank people for them or their translations please go to the Spoiler Discussion (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=639545#post639545) thread.

Have fun. ^^

Important Notes:

Please read THIS (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17372).

Please do not post babelfish/google translations. For the most part they are just confusing and wrong. So feel free to do them for your own benefit, but don't post them here. You can post them in the discussion threads, but here, just wait for the real translators to get around to it.

Even though we really appreciate international translations and cleaned spoiler pictures please post them with spoiler tags to guarantee a easy overview for the thread.

Thanks.


FAKE SPOILER!!! D:

*brings some light into this poor thread*

MAITREYA
December 12, 2007, 12:42 PM
FAKE SPOILER!!! D:

*brings some light into this poor thread*

Um... actually the page is made to put them there when they appear. To not allow any derivations from the rules about spoiling ppl that don't want to be spoiled. That's why they're not here yet.

Dunno about you, but it seemed pretty clear to me.

ChickenFajita
December 12, 2007, 12:50 PM
Me thinks he was making a funny.

Fairy Vearth
December 12, 2007, 01:31 PM
i have a question.
is there a chapter this week?

there's not a single spoiler yet and we have wednesday...

Helltroll
December 12, 2007, 01:42 PM
1. bleach spiler are always late. wait til next mroning :)
2. plz close until spoielrs are there

ShinigamiAkuma
December 12, 2007, 02:20 PM
Quitcha spamming ppl (from now on), ironically, this post is a spam, but it's a message that needs to reach out to the spammers.

Lohnt
December 13, 2007, 03:24 AM
Why must we fight? Oh right, this is Bleach ^^

cacwoody
December 13, 2007, 03:55 AM
BAM!! first non spammer. this spoiler confused me...is that like one of those poems that he does before the chapters sometimes? and if the next chapter is titled szayel vs mayuri...then what the hell is going to happen in this chapter? a bunch of loligag fighting between two weirdos i would think..

drakend
December 13, 2007, 04:13 AM
Uhm on the cover there is Hitsugaya and then the poem talks about ice here and there. I hope it won't mean Hitsugaya would be involved in the fight against Szayel because this would become utterly retarded: a mere eigth Espada can't require TWO captains to be killed, not to mentiones the opponents Szayel had before. I had enough of Szayel and his crappy doll: he has to bite the dust, it's as simple as that.

ttxdragon
December 13, 2007, 04:18 AM
this chapter is (according to last chapters notice at the end)
a completely hitsugaya-dedicated (full color?) chapter with 23 pages, in commemoration of the upcoming movie "The Diamond Dust Rebellion (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15134)".


I would say, this is a hitsu-side story ;)
like ch00 at the end of v23 (iirc) where they have shown what happened before bleach started.


whether it's even labeled as "bleach 304" is another question ;)

TheChosenOne
December 13, 2007, 04:31 AM
Why is hitsu shown in the cover, is it cuz of the movie. Maybe by tomorow we will see some more credible pics of the chapter and some summaries. :)

drakend
December 13, 2007, 04:38 AM
this chapter is (according to last chapters notice at the end)
a completely hitsugaya-dedicated (full color?) chapter with 23 pages, in commemoration of the upcoming movie "The Diamond Dust Rebellion (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15134)".


I would say, this is a hitsu-side story ;)
like ch00 at the end of v23 (iirc) where they have shown what happened before bleach started.


whether it's even labeled as "bleach 304" is another question ;)
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't want side stories just now, especially about Hitsugaya... I mean that guy is WAY over-rated and sometimes he seems to be the main character in the anime and in the manga. I don't get why he's so popular in Japan, he's the weakest captain.

ttxdragon
December 13, 2007, 04:42 AM
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't want side stories just now, especially about Hitsugaya... I mean that guy is WAY over-rated and sometimes he seems to be the main character in the anime and in the manga. I don't get why he's so popular in Japan, he's the weakest captain.
"why?" is it?

I don't have proofed reasons, but speculation would align it to:
he's a kid (like many readers of WSJ), he's a "cute boy" which gets to all the females reading bleach.... and as one knows kids and females are the ones most likely to vote and buy stuff.


It's really just speculation, but that at least makes sense to me >_>

pongy
December 13, 2007, 04:43 AM
-.- Why now..? Is this chapter dedicated to the xmas or something? The ice and all that..

Sk3tch
December 13, 2007, 04:49 AM
Oh god, I really hope that this chapter isn't about Histugaya :notrust . I mean, last week we saw Mayuri crushed Szayel with his gigantic baby-faced-worm bankai. People were happy expecting to see the possibility of Szayel's death along with the Ken. vs. Nnoi. fight in this week's chapter. What a hype-killer eh? T_T

molokidan
December 13, 2007, 05:01 AM
Hmm...so we were promised a Hitsugaya side-story last week, and it looks like that's all we'll be getting this week..

And so, the conclusion to the Szayel fight is dragged on yet ANOTHER week! This is really amazing. I think at this rate, it will be a 50-chapter long battle. That's really something.

The biggest downside to this, I think, is that we probably won't see Kenpachi vs. Nnoitra until the new year...

Jadedmariner
December 13, 2007, 05:18 AM
The fight needs to end as not only has it been poorly done, but it wasn't that interesting of a match up to begin with. To be honest I prefer the Hitsugaya side story if the only other thing we are going to get is MORE of that stupid Szayel fight. Don't get me wrong I'm dying for the Ken vs. Noi fight, but I don't think I could take anymore Szayel.

cacwoody
December 13, 2007, 05:18 AM
bah...o well. one week isn't going to hurt. especially compared to stupid Togashi with HXH on hiatus again. jerk :mad

:Edit:

I agree with the guy above me. red&white&pink&mayuri fight has been going on for 39 chapters so far. or atleast that was when renji started fighting him. He NEEDS TO DIE!!! RAWR!

drakend
December 13, 2007, 05:23 AM
"why?" is it?

I don't have proofed reasons, but speculation would align it to:
he's a kid (like many readers of WSJ), he's a "cute boy" which gets to all the females reading bleach.... and as one knows kids and females are the ones most likely to vote and buy stuff.


It's really just speculation, but that at least makes sense to me >_>
Yes but they are crappy reasons because in a shounen what makes a character cool is his badassness, not how cute he is... :rolleyes:
For that there are shoujo stories... :D
Shirosaki (not Ichigo...) and Kenpachi should be the most liked IMHO. ANyway is this offtopic? I ask because the chapter of this week if offtopic itself... :D

ttxdragon
December 13, 2007, 05:36 AM
Yes but they are crappy reasons because in a shounen what makes a character cool is his badassness, not how cute he is... :rolleyes:
For that there are shoujo stories... :D
Shirosaki (not Ichigo...) and Kenpachi should be the most liked IMHO. ANyway is this offtopic? I ask because the chapter of this week if offtopic itself... :D
Whatever sells is a good enough reason =|
it's not like i necessarily agree with it, but it doesn't mean those reasons are "crappy".

There are so many shounen who don't base on badassness that your argument about it being shounen isn't holding either ^^;

[hr]

either way!

this is starting to get offtopic.
the Szayel fight doesn't have anything to do with the spoiler, nor does this talk really have much to do with it ^^;

so,

let's get back on track:

I think the poem is nice and hope the chapter will cover some more good backstory for Hitsu in the normal Bleach Universe, not for the movie. ^^;
According to the spoiler, this chapter is called "bleach.15", So... why 15? :O
One thing for sure in this chapter: The art will rock! :D

cacwoody
December 13, 2007, 05:44 AM
yeah yeah like d.gray man and death note...but i guess hes kind of an intellectual bad ass...this is getting off topic :D

so back on topic...i tried being a clever little guy and figure out why the chapter is called bleach.15................but came up with nothing. :( first i thought that volume 15 had him on the cover but hes on 16...so then i looked up the actual chapter 15..but obviously nothing there..and checked a few other things but to no avail. maybe its his 15th birthday or something...which now that i think about it isnt possible because arent like the main characters 15-17ish?

Koen
December 13, 2007, 10:29 AM
a side story is good, I wonder what it will be about (hitsugaya of course). Naruto sidestory was really good

patedecarne
December 13, 2007, 10:46 AM
side story usually are good , but please , not with hitsugaya, bleach have so many other characters to make side story...
And I really don't think that a side story betwwen all of this action suit well....

hollowdemon
December 13, 2007, 11:27 AM
yeah he definitely hogged the SS captains airtime and id say we should dedicate that to the las noches commanders instead (gin/tousen) and learn about their past although i have a feeling for them itll be when theyre about to die or after theyre dead :(

i dont have anything against hitsugaya but im guessing the "boy genius" title must have a story behind it and if its about the movie then nothing wrong with that either :D

ChickenFajita
December 13, 2007, 12:22 PM
Mubee it is one of those, I'm going to die in the near future flashbacks...

Prolly not, but we can always hope!

TheChosenOne
December 13, 2007, 12:32 PM
Why is Hitsu so popular, he almost got voted number 1 character. I don't understand, he is weak and not that good of a captain. He gets a movie about him, now there is gonna be a side story chapter dedicated for the movie about him. I agree with molokidan, we won't see Kenpachi and Nnoi till the new year. :)

hollowdemon
December 13, 2007, 12:36 PM
maybe more like how and why he decided to be a shinigami since at the first flashbacks we saw that he didnt even want to be one when hinamori was training in the academy to be one.

but then again all the captains are full of unknown past they shouldve had theyre airtime shown too if that was the case

Oni Shinigami
December 13, 2007, 12:38 PM
So a side story about Hitsugaya before he became a Taichou it seems. Perhaps it will explain how he was able to rise to the rank of Captain at such a young age.

•Sasuke•
December 13, 2007, 12:39 PM
http://i8.tinypic.com/6oex8w5.jpg


By spacecat on BA

氷原の夢を見る
I dream of an ice field
氷の気配がする
I can feel the ice
声が聞こえる こだましている
I hear a voice echoing
圧し潰すような 包み込むような
squashing and wrapping
遠く鳴り響く 雷鳴のような
like thunder echoing in the distance

声が聞こえる
I hear a voice
圧し潰すような 包み込むような
squashing and wrapping
遠く鳴り響く 雷鳴のような
like thunder echoing in the distance

この掌に触れる 花のような
like a flower touching my palm

bleach.15 氷原に死す
Bleach 15 death in the ice field

うん、次回予告が
The notice for next week is:
マユリvsザエルアポロ!激動!って書いてあった
Mayuri vs Szayel Aporro! A terrible shock!
[hr]
It begins with a scene of a field which fills with snow, “I dream of an ice field. I could hear the voice echoing as if it will destroy, as if it will surround every direction, as if it’s a thunder from a faraway place.”

“Good morning, Shiro Chan” Hitsugaya opens his eyes with much annoyance. He sees Hinamori’s face an just inch from his and tells her, “you’re too close.” But she ignores him and tells him to go eat breakfast or else she will be late for first day at the academy. Hitsugaya just looks at her , gets up and says, “so boring.”

A scene cuts to the gate of Seireitei where Hitsugaya just says to Hinamori not to come back which she just waves at him happily. But an old woman behind him asks if it’s ok for him to say that to someone he will not meet for a while. Hitsugaya replies its fine, because when they have holidays she will come back anyway.

Then he sees that there are a boy and a girl looking at him. When their eyes meet, those two just look away shyly and walk out of there. ‘Tatsukiji and Ayumi, Hinamori’s neighbors. They’re scare of me but there is nothing to do. Just know that they scare of me, just like everyone else. ‘ thinks Hitsugaya then continues his thoughts, ‘The south of lucon, district 1 Junrinun, only two people who do not scare of me are Hinamori and this grandma. The silver hair, the green-blue eyes and this cold attitude…they all say “it’s just like ice.”’
‘But you never say that even once. That’s why I love grandma’, Hitsugaya thinks with a small smile.

Scene fast forwards to five years later. Everything is starting to change which include Hitsugaya becoming taller and Hinamori’s hair is getting longer and His grandmother…is getting thinner.

She calls out Hitsugaya’s name but he says he will buy her natto and left the house. When he reaches a place, a man rudely tells him 3 *kang which he pays but a seller slams the coins on the table and quickly takes his hand back. Hitsugaya takes the money and is about to leave when he heard a woman yells, “Wait!! How could you give costumer money that way!!” Hitsugaya turns around only to be greeted with a woman’s breasts which cause him to hit the table and gets a nosebleed.

That woman wears a black hakama with a zampakutou hangs around her waist. She is Matsumoto Rangiku.

“You just see him as a kid so you can act however you like? I cannot believe this shop is so rude!” Then she rushes to Hitsugaya’s side and picks him to her level, “You too! When will you stop crying! Just be a man and hit him back!” Which angers Hitsugaya “And whose fault is it? And I wasn’t crying!! Let go!!” Matsumoto is about to hit back but something about him stops her which gives Hitsugaya to run away.

That same night Hitsugaya has the same dream again but this time he sees a dragon, an ice dragon in front of him.

“Boy!!!” A dragon roars, “You are you….” But Hitsugaya couldn’t hear the end words because the wind is too strong.

“what!!!? I can’t hear it!!”

“My name is…..” a dragon says but its last word is disappeared with the wind.

Hitsuagaya wakes up with sweats all over his face and breathing hard. Suddenly he hears a voive greeting him. In front of his is Matsumoto and Hitsugaya tenses up but she smiles at him and says, “You better try to control your reiatsu before you go to sleep. Your grandmother is freezing to death, can’t you see?”

Hitsugaya sees that Matsumoto is right which causes him to go speechless. “Boy….you should become a shinigami.” Matsumoto suddenly goes serious. Her words stunt Hitsugaya so much. “A kid who is so powerful should learn how to control the powers. I’ll warn you, if this continues, one day you will kill that old woman because of your powers." Before Hitsugaya could say anything Matsumoto’s finger touches Hitsugaya’s heart and asks, “You heard a voice right? If you can find out where that voice comes from, you can control your powers. That is what we called ‘shinigami.’”

She looks at him again and says, “I will say this one last time, boy.”

The next day Hitsugaya explains everything to an old woman and she tells him to go, “You have been so patient. Because you think I would be lonely. You think about my feelings that’s why you have to accept so many things..but like this….is what makes me sad the most.” Her words make Hitsugaya wants to cry which in the end he holds his hands on his knees and let an old woman hold him.

At the ice field a whisper from a boy in a black hakama can be heard, “I can hear a voice. A faraway roar from somewhere near; I’ve decided to find out where is that voice comes from. Even if I have to bury myself in the middle of this ice field.”

A wind blows him and he disappears in the middle of that lonely ice field.

Found On ba

hollowdemon
December 13, 2007, 12:57 PM
overrated and overhyped is this boi hitsuagaya
and just cause hes the youngest of the captains doesnt mean he deserve a side story either ...
i wanna see more of other captains that just him

Suzumushi
December 13, 2007, 12:59 PM
Could it be that this is just the description of the opening scene of the upcoming movie "the diamond dust rebellion"? I mean, it's definitely about Hitsugaya, so maybe this isn't a spoiler for our latest chapter but the movie's intro summary.

TheChosenOne
December 13, 2007, 01:06 PM
So it's gonna be a hitsu back story. So he met Matsumoto at a shop, covering him with her breasts. It was kind of great to see how Hitsu's power game to him, he had a dream and his zanpak was calling out to him. :)

ANBU4U
December 13, 2007, 01:07 PM
You're all hatin' on Hitsugaya a bit IMO. The only reason your so mad is because he gets sooo much air-time relative to the other captains and vice-captains we know next to nothing about.

But as for his character design itself...he's actually fairly bitchin'. His over all concept and release are second in wickedness only to Yammato and Ichigo(WITH the mask) thus far. With Byakuya or Perhaps Tousen coming in 4th behind him.

And as for his strength.....He's not nearly as horrible as all of you claim, I'd say he's solidly in the middle of the current captains power-wise...and unlike the rest of them he has plenty of upside left.

TheChosenOne
December 13, 2007, 01:09 PM
Agreed:)
He has a lot of potential to become more powerful, but at the moment he is pretty weak when comparing to the other captain. What level is middle, is it along with Komma. :)

ttxdragon
December 13, 2007, 01:12 PM
this sounds like a good chapter which could supply some great art.

Sure, it's nothing world-moving and many will feel "damn, why the hell does kubo throw this in? it's not needed!",
but, what better place to put this in as the time when the movie is getting released?

Hitsugaya is popular, get over it.
just crying "why oh why, he's such a weak tard!" won't bring anything -- write postcards to Shueisha with your votes for the next char-poll if you want to change it.


Well,
I can't say I don't like this short story. This little explanation for Hitsu was something I did wonder about, since the gap between "I don't want to be a shinigami"/"I hate shinigami" and "I am the youngest captain ever" is quite huge...

And I'm pretty sure we will get some more side-stories/back stories when it fits and Kubo has the material for it =)
or maybe not side stories, but extended flashbacks ^^;

TheChosenOne
December 13, 2007, 01:15 PM
Well I guess we have to wait for each captains to be featured in a movie, to get the back story for them. I am also glad to see Hitsu's past with someone else than Hinamori. It was funny how Matsumoto introduced herself. :)

conn-man
December 13, 2007, 01:16 PM
I've got no complaints. i've always been really curious about hitsu's past and i wanted to see his fast transition from little kid to capt. i'll agree that it really interupts the current plot, but i look forward to reading it.

hollowdemon
December 13, 2007, 01:25 PM
im not hating ON hitsugaya but just the fact that hes receiving more airtime as mentioned. But about his power theres nothing to complain about, his bankai kicks ass and hes the youngest which means he still has time to be more powerful and stronger than other captains.

Its expected i guess if we dont see kenpachi vs nnoitra battle this upcoming chapter

Praz
December 13, 2007, 01:27 PM
awesome!, ive wondered how he transitioned as well.

On a side note. Why does everyone think he is so weak? I mean, the only time he really got to throw down anywhere was in the human world....where a captains power is ubber limitied is it not?

Dice
December 13, 2007, 01:38 PM
This little sidestory is way better than the fight between number 8 and Mayuri because the fight of number 8 is going on too long and I don't like both of them...To bad that we won't see Kenpachi soon because of the sidestory....but I hope that we'll see that Mayuri has won the fight then a little smalltalk and the last 10 pages we will Kenpachi. That would be a nice last chapter for this year XD

Something about the sidestory: I think it would be quiet nice to see, that all this happened not a too long time before the SS-Arc (but quite unlikely^^), then we would have something to look forward. I mean if there would not be that much time between discovering his powers and developing bankai you would have a similar development like Ichigo and he could be much stronger in the winterwar (longer time he can stay in bankai etc.).

jerger
December 13, 2007, 01:53 PM
unlike... naruto... this story is called bleach... so its not called ichigo lol

this jsut sounds to funny to be manga, its a great story but since when do manga writers write scripts and "then she said" type crap... its way to long for a chapter...

movie script... maybe

TheChosenOne
December 13, 2007, 02:03 PM
Well I am disappointed that Ken will not be shown this chapter. After all the anticipation we still have to wait another week for it, maybe 2. But since the movie is coming out, it's great to see a something that we can use to understand Hitsu better. :)

ttxdragon
December 13, 2007, 02:04 PM
jerger...

the summary spans all 23 pages that this chapter has :)
this is a special chapter for the movie ;) some extra-information that might make one enjoy the movie more ^^; (i'd guess)

hollowdemon
December 13, 2007, 02:09 PM
it might also relate to the whole royal guards from what we've seen in the movie with hitsugaya. A bit of a shock to see him on the cover without the captains robe though, thats a first

TheChosenOne
December 13, 2007, 02:12 PM
Does Hitsu have his zanpak when he is dreaming about the dragon. I think not since he decided to find the power. :)

hollowdemon
December 13, 2007, 02:49 PM
well with hitsugaya which seems to be the main character/story about im still sure somewhere along the line theres something about ichigo also. Since there was a clip to his childhood moments where his mother died itll probably have hitsugayas movie about something he had done or promised with that shinigami with the mask and ichigo telling hitsugaya he could relate since his past involves with the same thing.

well im not complaining at hitsugaya at all, im just complaining that it isnt out yet and should've been out by now :D

TheChosenOne
December 13, 2007, 02:52 PM
Well Of Course Ichigo is going to be connected, he was in the first movie. Ichigo is once again going to play the rescuer and try to bring back hitsu. As for the chapter I think it's great that it's been released simultaneously with movie, which could help us understand the character and the plot better :)

hollowdemon
December 13, 2007, 02:54 PM
i just dont get how we can go from las noches with the ss captains vs espadas and the whole rescuing orihime ordeal with the basto lordes and vaizards to still even make any airtime. Into hitsugaya's movie side-story in the middle of it, it just doesnt make any sense for me :(

And yes of course ichigo will hes the main gun after all....word to kubo you might need to stop the whole "Rescuing" idea and come up with another, playa :D

anrufen
December 13, 2007, 03:28 PM
Y is Hitsugya made to be so important?

TheChosenOne
December 13, 2007, 03:30 PM
Y is Hitsugya made to be so important?

Well a lot of the fans love his design and his attitude. Plus he is like the second most popular character, behind Ichigo (very closely). Then there is also a movie about to come out, so this side story will help us grasp the movie better. :)

Ruissu
December 13, 2007, 03:53 PM
hye the fact that kubo makes a side story is reallt convinient to the movie... thatmeans that we might C some new bankai's since kubo had a direct papper over this movie


maybe..JUST maybe there will be 2 chaptrs.. the side styory and the true 304

anyway i do like hitsugaya alot =D

ichikenchan
December 13, 2007, 04:02 PM
i think its about time they start fillling in gaps for the captains since we've already heard the basic story of kenpachi and seen a little back into byakuya's life not to mention ichigo's childhood so if they weren't to do it on hitsugya then it would probably be based on some one we wouldnt care about unless if it was aizen i would like to read into his past see how he became so powerful and his fights that happened before but i dont consider hitsugya weak at all i think everyone remembers him only from his slaughter from aizen which if i do recall wasnt the only captain taken down so easily and the ones in the real world were jus to give the impression that the espada are strong and also they weren't allowed to fight at full power anyways the other minor fights like him vs gin which if u take inconsideration was a win for hitsu if gin didnt use "that girl " cant remember her name for a decoy so i would say hitsu is on par with alot of the captains and sorry to spoil everyone's bubble but im pretty sure even when we do get to the kenchan and noi fight it wont happen LOL i have a feeling they will retreat

InSaneWeTrust
December 13, 2007, 04:07 PM
You're all hatin' on Hitsugaya a bit IMO. The only reason your so mad is because he gets sooo much air-time relative to the other captains and vice-captains we know next to nothing about.

But as for his character design itself...he's actually fairly bitchin'. His over all concept and release are second in wickedness only to Yammato and Ichigo(WITH the mask) thus far. With Byakuya or Perhaps Tousen coming in 4th behind him.

And as for his strength.....He's not nearly as horrible as all of you claim, I'd say he's solidly in the middle of the current captains power-wise...and unlike the rest of them he has plenty of upside left.

Indeed...he's a "little kid" who kicked the 6th Espada's ass. That's pretty sweet in my book.

And saying "my favorite character should be the most popular!" is pretty silly. My favorite captain is Mayuri, but I don't think other people should like him because I do(heck, the reasons I love him are probably the reasons other people wouldn't >_>).

Also, calling him the weakest captain makes no sense. I'd guess, outside of Yamamoto and Aizen, most of the captains are about equal. There's no evidence really indicating one is weaker than another.

A lot depends on circumstances, environment, opponent, etc. to determine who's more effective in which situation. Shikai Ichigo defeated Kenpachi, Kenpachi defeated Bankai Tousen, does that mean Shikai Ichigo could beat Bankai Tousen? Uryuu defeated Mayuri, Szayel defeated Uryuu, Mayuri defeated Szayel. So on and so forth.

Anyways, this chapter sounds fun, and I wouldn't mind seeing similar chapters for other characters. Some chapters tying into that new video game about the 5th division captain before Aizen would be really cool, for example.

Koen
December 13, 2007, 04:14 PM
It certainly will got to do with the upcoming movie. Hitsugaya and his past will be the main setting of the movie

notBowen
December 13, 2007, 04:35 PM
Well I can't say I'm not disappointed. Kubo gets too caught up in the anime offshoots of his manga.

Audition
December 13, 2007, 04:39 PM
Wow..

I think it is a pre-teaser of Bleach: Dust Rebellion?! (forgot the true title)

well i dont like it i will not read it.. XD

Gold Knight
December 13, 2007, 04:58 PM
I don't mind the sidestory, but it does seem to have come at an awkward time within the story. I would have thought that at least Hitsugaya would have to be part of the present story - maybe a dramatic appearance or something - for the timing to be right to show a sidestory. I guess it's something Tite Kubo is planning to include at the end of the current volume.

igotthegoods
December 13, 2007, 05:59 PM
I don't mind the sidestory, but it does seem to have come at an awkward time within the story. I would have thought that at least Hitsugaya would have to be part of the present story - maybe a dramatic appearance or something - for the timing to be right to show a sidestory.

agreed. i would actually like to know more about his past other than the fact that he was friends with hinamori before becoming a shinigami, so i don't mind it either. from the spoiler, it sounds to me that it isn't going to suck, either. the awkward timing (and the fact that he's not even involved in this plotline so far) is obviously promotion for the upcoming movie. it seems that even kubo worries about the bottom line ;)

sasorixd97
December 13, 2007, 06:13 PM
seems more like a fan fic then a issue

mestizo311
December 13, 2007, 06:14 PM
I have to say that although I think Hitsugaya is a pretty cool character, the timing of this side story is BLAH!!!!! I mean couldn't he have used it as a bonus supplement that gets distributed with the manga. I don't think the movie needs all that much promoting. And why do a side story when they could have just animated it in the upcoming movie. I was hoping to finally get to see some Zaraki action before the holidays. But I guess if you look at it from a business stand point, it makes sense.

Praz
December 13, 2007, 07:40 PM
sooooo, no real chapter 304 this week?

rayywang
December 13, 2007, 07:48 PM
That's a real neat story leading up to DiamonDust rebellion I'm sure.

Reminds me of Kakashi Gaiden, explaining gaps in the past. It's good to see Hitsugaya-kun's character being fleshed out more, and to see why Hinamori and Rangiku are so fond of him

Vinnie
December 13, 2007, 09:25 PM
Worst idea ever.

eddy26
December 13, 2007, 09:25 PM
Well if this chapter really is just about Hitsugaya's past before becoming a captain is good enough for me. The timing is perfect considering that the movie that is about him is coming out. I mean people were waiting for the Kenpachi vs. Nnoi fight but if Kubo wanted to do a side story to make more money understandable. This probably means Szayel is dead he finished the fights for Byakuya and Mayuri. So take a little break from Hueco Mundo before he writes the final battle. We've known about Hitsugaya's fighting style his bankai and all the battles he's won and lost. So finding out about how he got the most powerful ice zanpaktou and how he became a shinigami needed more explanation. It's good to see why Hinamori and Matsumoto are so close to him. I hope we'll see why he so quickly became a captain since he got stronger than Hinamori and Matsumoto who were shinigami's before he even became one. I've always thought that Hitsugaya wasn't the weakest captain I mean he is so young and his bankai is still immature so he has as much potential as Kenpachi to get stronger although I'm sure a lot of people will disagree. I want to see some pics of the chapter to see how Kubo draws Hitsugaya as he got older.

TheChosenOne
December 13, 2007, 09:34 PM
It's greatly disappointing that there is not going to be Ken next chapter. Did it give us any indication from last week that there would be a side story this week. Hopefully the chapter is a good read, and not just stories put together. :)

fdbgdg
December 13, 2007, 10:24 PM
Seems like the full raw and don't use it for scans



MediaFire (http://www.mediafire.com/?8ddddxyhkfw) || RapidShare (http://rapidshare.com/files/76479769/302.rar.html)

AngryChubbs
December 13, 2007, 10:56 PM
i dont get why people think he is weak...i mean the other captains consider him a child prodigy....that itself is enough for him to be considered strong. and yes, he is extremely young and has the strongest of all ice zanpakutos. lets not forget that he has everything needed for a ridiculously strong captain....he is just still really young. imagine him in 20 years, while others may have a linear growth rate, his is definetly exponential which means that he probably has the most potential out of all of them.

dreamzsai
December 13, 2007, 11:25 PM
I think Hitsugaya is a pretty decent character, he has a pretty cool Bankai (though it might be a little weak), he has a good personality (protective over the ones he cares, hardworking, responsible), he is also young and has good potential.

Yea, he may be a tad too weak now, but since he is young and hardworking, plus he is getting all the fights now (giving him the experience), he will be a force to be reckoned with in the years to come.

Then again, the movie dedicated to him might be Kubo's way of telling us, "after this major Hitsugaya scene, he'll be out of the picture and someone else will take over his place" and then we might have some other person who takes his place of getting coverage.

Plus it's the Christmas season, so Hitsugaya's icy theme just fits =D


うん、次回予告が
The notice for next week is:
マユリvsザエルアポロ!激動!って書いてあった
Mayuri vs Szayel Aporro! A terrible shock!

So Aporro somehow survived the Bankai attack? and the chapter goes on with Mayuri vs Aporro?
Or is the terrible shock describing how Aporro is shocked by the sudden Bankai attack?

AngryChubbs
December 14, 2007, 12:37 AM
im sure he somehow survived...i mean lets face it...all the bankai did was breathe on him and then fall on him lol

but unfortunetly, im afraiz szayel will still live for a couple more chapters

TheChosenOne
December 14, 2007, 01:14 AM
I just saw the pics, well its not that bad. Seeing hitsu's past and how he became a captain is an interesting chapter, but no kenpachi is too dissapointing. :)

squidbreath
December 14, 2007, 02:18 AM
Oh heck no!! =( oh well, lets hope that it isn't gonna be boring like the character i think it'll be starring...

TheChosenOne
December 14, 2007, 02:30 AM
Well hopefully the movie is as good as its hyped. For a chapter to be dedicated it must be a big deal, hopefully it does not dissapoint. :)

Athena
December 14, 2007, 03:34 AM
The link doesn't work for me; does anybody have an alternative link to download this chapter?

Sentou Ryoku
December 14, 2007, 04:51 AM
Did Kubo write the movie as well?

KyanWan
December 14, 2007, 05:01 AM
I think Hitsugaya is a pretty decent character, he has a pretty cool Bankai (though it might be a little weak), he has a good personality (protective over the ones he cares, hardworking, responsible), he is also young and has good potential.

Yea, he may be a tad too weak now, but since he is young and hardworking, plus he is getting all the fights now (giving him the experience), he will be a force to be reckoned with in the years to come.


Exactly - like I've pointed out before - atm - Hitsugaya's just another little turd.

HOWEVER, he's got in his hand "the most powerful ice blade" - plus he's a kid, and a captain. That's impressive.

He's already whipped the crap out of an Arrancar ( Poor old Luppi. :( I miss em. :P ) - and proven he can hold his own in a real fight. Quite honestly, I'm impressed with his sennen-ice-prison that he used.

But back to the point - Hitsugaya is *definitely* is a captain with big potential - just like our good friend Kenpachi - ( learn the name of your sword, increase your already massive power five-fold. Um, combined with personally being hellbent on having the "most powerful shinigami" title - Kenpachi's got *massive* potential. )

But still, Hitsugaya's annoying to me too. I recognize he has potential, but I love watching him get his ass whipped. :P

Now, one last thing I've got to point out. Speaking of cute kids being up in the top ranks of the goetei 13 - ( ok, you know where this is leading, LOL! ) - how bout Yachiru? Damn, I'd like to see her take out a couple fraccion while Kenpachi's fighting. It would have been nice to see her off Tesla. Who knows - she MUST have a reason (besides being Kenpachi's adopted-kid) to be the Lieutenant of the 11th squad. I'm guessing - that she's a Kenpachi JR. Huge reiatsu, bloodlust, the works. After all, she learned from the master of the trade.

Seriously, Yachriu's got to see some action. I'm hoping the Kenpachi fight will see her unleashed.

Hockeychaoz
December 14, 2007, 05:08 AM
Exactly - like I've pointed out before - atm - Hitsugaya's just another little turd.

HOWEVER, he's got in his hand "the most powerful ice blade" - plus he's a kid, and a captain. That's impressive.

He's already whipped the crap out of an Arrancar ( Poor old Luppi. :( I miss em. :P ) - and proven he can hold his own in a real fight. Quite honestly, I'm impressed with his sennen-ice-prison that he used.

But back to the point - Hitsugaya is *definitely* is a captain with big potential - just like our good friend Kenpachi - ( learn the name of your sword, increase your already massive power five-fold. Um, combined with personally being hellbent on having the "most powerful shinigami" title - Kenpachi's got *massive* potential. )

But still, Hitsugaya's annoying to me too. I recognize he has potential, but I love watching him get his ass whipped. :P

Now, one last thing I've got to point out. Speaking of cute kids being up in the top ranks of the goetei 13 - ( ok, you know where this is leading, LOL! ) - how bout Yachiru? Damn, I'd like to see her take out a couple fraccion while Kenpachi's fighting. It would have been nice to see her off Tesla. Who knows - she MUST have a reason (besides being Kenpachi's adopted-kid) to be the Lieutenant of the 11th squad. I'm guessing - that she's a Kenpachi JR. Huge reiatsu, bloodlust, the works. After all, she learned from the master of the trade.

Seriously, Yachriu's got to see some action. I'm hoping the Kenpachi fight will see her unleashed.


I got a feeling that Yachiru is effected by Zaraki's reiatsu in the way that Chad/Inoue/Tasuki etc were. Except shes severly effected because shes always around him.

Zaraki is the best. And Ikkaku might be the second strongest man in the 11th, but whos the strongest girl =p.

Gold Knight
December 14, 2007, 05:08 AM
I like Hitsugaya, actually. That he turned out to be such a serious kid is kind of funny because it wasn't something I had been expecting, and he's a fun "straight man" to Matsumoto, for example.

When he's going to grow up, he's likely going to surpass quite a few other Captains, because his Ban Kai isn't even mature itself yet. I wouldn't be surprised if he's destined to replace Genryuusai someday as "supreme commander" - although not until he grows up. But it would be kind of symbolic - kind of the New Year's child-like figure pushing the Old Year grandfatherly figure out, heh.

I'd like to see Yachiru in action as well.

Zeus-Tails
December 14, 2007, 05:56 AM
What the...we're waiting for Kenpachi vs Noitora and he gives us more backstory on the weakest captain. If you're going to give a back-story, do it on Gin and Matsumoto at least. Gin is hella more interesting that Hitsugaya.

@Gold Knight: I'd DEFINITELY be surprised if Hitsugaya came close to Yamamoto's power. Just because his bankai isn't mature doesn't mean much. Ichigo's bankai is less mature than Hitsugaya (since Ichigo hasn't had bankai for as long as Hitsu) and his bankai was enough to take on Byakuya.

The only captain I see having a lot of potential for growth is Kenpachi because he has yet to even harness his first release (by this I mean knowing his sword's name) and he's already stronger than bankai Hitsugaya.

ttxdragon
December 14, 2007, 06:01 AM
Did Kubo write the movie as well?
Kubo is, afaik, co-writer of the movie -- or at least advisor.
He had his hands in the first movie too and in the most recent anime filler arc either.

So, they all can be called canon-material on the same level as databooks are ^^

(plus, it made the first movie likely so much better <3 )


as for the chapter:
Jupp, definitely worth it. It isn't somewhere in the extremes of any section, be it tragic, be it action, be it loneliness... which is a good thing, imho. It's still somewhat tragic/dramatic, but it doesn't seem to go too far, it doesn't make one to have an overly pitying reaction. (at least not me :p )

evolution-Z
December 14, 2007, 06:02 AM
so this mean hitsugaya chapter is bleach chapter 304 ? or not ?

Gold Knight
December 14, 2007, 06:06 AM
Can't download the chapter for some reason.

Zeus-Tails, when a character is that popular, you never know how ridiculously powerful Tite Kubo will make him in the future.

evolution-Z, doubt it. No "304" on the chapter cover.

ttxdragon
December 14, 2007, 06:10 AM
an RS link:
http://rapidshare.com/files/76479769/302.rar.html


----


and no, it's not ch304,
it's chapter "bleach-15", whatever the 15 related to :p

drakend
December 14, 2007, 06:32 AM
I hope this thingy will be the only one... or will we have a "movie arc"? I hope not: I'm sure this isn't Kubo Tite's will but the crappy imposition of the editor.

black_burn
December 14, 2007, 07:28 AM
This chaoter was pretty good, I was expecting something terrible the way people were going on about it. Hyorinmaru is huge no wonder he never beat that thing and got full Bankai lol, later bleach we might see a Hitsugaya inner battle between him and Hyorinmaru ,i'm looking forward to seeing it if it does happen.

Gold Knight
December 14, 2007, 07:33 AM
Thanks ttx.

It was fun to see Hyourinmaru in its true form. That alone was worth it for the sidestory.

AngryChubbs
December 14, 2007, 11:44 AM
i dont get why so many people always hate on hitsugaya...HE IS A CAPTAIN...and you cant call him the weakest because you dont know what the other captains can do. i just dont get it, i mean he can freeze everything around him...thats a pretty strong ability in my opinion. and if there is water in the atmosphere, his sword cant be broken....come on now, he is extrememly strong. he may lack fighting ability, but he is still a captain and hes a captain for a reason.

hollowdemon
December 14, 2007, 11:56 AM
yes i agree :D
hitsugaya deserves a bit of a prop since hes a captain and no reason to be hated on just cuz hes the youngest, thats the more reason to even like him :)
im just a bit disappointed out of nowhere its about hitsugaya that this chapter is about :(

AngryChubbs
December 14, 2007, 12:06 PM
i am too...it definetly would have been better if this was something that would have came out on a week there there wasn't supposed to be any bleach or if it came out concurrently with the next chapter but o well. and im sure that bleach isn't anywhere near being done so im sure we will find out about most of the captains eventually.

drakend
December 14, 2007, 12:15 PM
i dont get why so many people always hate on hitsugaya...HE IS A CAPTAIN...and you cant call him the weakest because you dont know what the other captains can do. i just dont get it, i mean he can freeze everything around him...thats a pretty strong ability in my opinion. and if there is water in the atmosphere, his sword cant be broken....come on now, he is extrememly strong. he may lack fighting ability, but he is still a captain and hes a captain for a reason.
Oh well he isn't one of the strongest for sure... :D
Ah and BTW yes if he's in the atmosphere he's pretty strong yet he only managed to injure Luppi a bit. :D
Even if it doesn't seem I have nothing against Hitsugaya, I'm indifferent to him. I'm only tired of all the hype there is around him just because fangirls love him... ok I love Matsumoto's and Yoruichi's breasts so I hope they will be a movie about them too!

AngryChubbs
December 14, 2007, 12:46 PM
Oh well he isn't one of the strongest for sure... :D
Ah and BTW yes if he's in the atmosphere he's pretty strong yet he only managed to injure Luppi a bit. :D
Even if it doesn't seem I have nothing against Hitsugaya, I'm indifferent to him. I'm only tired of all the hype there is around him just because fangirls love him... ok I love Matsumoto's and Yoruichi's breasts so I hope they will be a movie about them too!

nah, i doubt they will make a movie about them, but thats ok cause im sure you'll see plenty of them in the anime like usual lol
and about him only hurting luppi a little...wasn't luppi about to die until he the negacion beam saved him? in which case, he would have killed a number 6 espada....but i could be wrong, too lazy to go back and check.

TheChosenOne
December 14, 2007, 01:47 PM
Full raw (manyouu watertags) zipped version, Not for scans. :)

Mediafire (http://www.mediafire.com/?ahuhcd0j12s) || Rapidshare (http://rapidshare.com/files/76567437/302.zip.html) || Sendspace (http://www.sendspace.com/file/8gjbrd)

Enjoy

badluckartist
December 14, 2007, 01:48 PM
The problem with this is, it should've happened during the soul society arc. In fact, all of the captains should've gotten a little more backstory, especially Yama and his two apprentices. The hueco mundo arc should be about the espada's backstories- I loved Grimmjow's [although come to think of it, I guess it'd be kind of hard to think of unique backstories for hollows : / ].

As for Hitsugaya himself- it's inaccurate to call him the weakest captain. The current strength of any character is always kind of moot to judge, seeing as how everyone powers up [this is shonen manga after all]. If anything, We should judge characters based on potential, and for that, Hitsu is definitely nearing the top of the ladder. That's generally how Kubo has worked- he focuses on the characters who have the most potential for growth, and then chronicles what they have to go through to catch up and surpass those they need to. Hitsu is a prime example, and we should expect great things.

Here's hoping for Vaizard Hitsu, or at least Kenpachi : D

TheChosenOne
December 14, 2007, 01:56 PM
Well I think Kenpachi beats Hitsu in potential. Ken has nothing achieved while Hitsu just needs to master his weapons. I agree with the fact that Hitsu will be one of the stronger captains, but as for the moment he is weak. I liked the pics, is matsumoto a vice captain in the chapter, who is the captain of the 10th division then. :)

eddy26
December 14, 2007, 02:00 PM
I think it is a good backstory although I hate the fact that Szayel is still going to be alive. I wonder if he did survive that Mayuri's bankai will have another ability other than the poison. We saw Byakuya use a new move with his bankai to kill Zomari so maybe we will see the same from Mayuri to finally kill off Szayel he does a special attack with his bankai. As for Hitsugaya I agree with those people who say he has so much potential he is a child prodigy and like it or not the captain commander keeps sending him to do the dirty work. I think Yamamoto has it out for him I mean why send the youngest captain to the real world. Why not send one of the other captains like Komamura or Soi Fon that way she can hang out with Yoruichi her goddess. Nope Hitsugaya has to deal with the Arrancar who weren't espada and eventually did end up fighting an espada Lupi. Don't hate on the poor guy he's already getting picked on by characters in bleach he doesn't need fans hating on him too. Plus in the end I think in the winter war we end up seeing a stronger Hitsugaya against Gin. Since he is so popular in Japan he will probably beat him plus I think Matsumoto will also be involved in the fight with Gin as well as Kira. Those three characters don't like Gin for different reasons Kira because he was used as a tool, Hitsugaya because he attacked Hinamori and Matsumoto I don't know why but her loyalty to her captain will make her go against Gin. Plus I think Kira could be a bad matchup for Gin since Kira's zanpaktou makes whatever it hits heavier if he is able to dodge Gin's spear like zanpaktou by using his sword it will eventually lower Gin's speed to shoot it leaving an opening for Hitsugaya. Then kiss Gin goodbye. I know this last part got off topic my bad.

KyanWan
December 14, 2007, 03:59 PM
Hmm ... next chapter title. It doesn't sound good.

Seriously, if Mayuri doesn't win - I hope Mayuri gets to be the first captain killed. He better either kill Sayzel & get us on to the real action - or die himself.


As for Hitsugaya I agree with those people who say he has so much potential he is a child prodigy and like it or not the captain commander keeps sending him to do the dirty work. I think Yamamoto has it out for him I mean why send the youngest captain to the real world. Why not send one of the other captains like Komamura or Soi Fon that way she can hang out with Yoruichi her goddess. Nope Hitsugaya has to deal with the Arrancar who weren't espada and eventually did end up fighting an espada Lupi. Don't hate on the poor guy he's already getting picked on by characters in bleach he doesn't need fans hating on him too.

Aww, Gin's cool. I'd like to think Tousen has a reason for not trusting him. Maybe Matsumoto can ... smother him into changing sides again. :P

My guess is as follows - why send the kid in to fight all the time? Same reason you send a kid to school - or fight in a tournament - or practice something: to make them get better at what they need to do.

He's getting his practice & learning. He lacks something important, which other captains like Kenpachi & Byakuya obviously have plenty of: experience.

[ Insert some MMO 50-hours-of-grinding crack right here. I've been out of the loop too long ... lol, so I can't do it myself. A hand, please? :P ]

He is getting better - his encounter with Espada has proven it. The more he works himself - the stronger he'll get. He has almost limitless potential.

ttxdragon
December 14, 2007, 04:22 PM
The raw is out my friends~
Check it here: Bleach -15 R/T/S (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22958)

Translations are out already~


Since this is a special case, 303 discussion stays, 304 Prediction stays and the Side Story spoiler thread is open for new discussions with the complete chapter there now <3


Have fun!

kingfencer
December 14, 2007, 06:14 PM
can someone tell me why this is bleach 15? where are the rest? 1-14?

ttxdragon
December 14, 2007, 06:28 PM
it's Bleach -15 (notice the minus before it),
It's a special sidestory... after thinking about it, the -15 is likely for -15 degree Celsius (simple reason: Icy Temperatures)...

there are no 1-14 ^^;

Az3r
December 14, 2007, 08:00 PM
Not to mention 15 can be spelled as 'ichi-go' (Japanese) as in Ichigo. But since it's about Hitsu, that's most likely not the case here. I agree with ttxdragon. Sorry, just pointing the fun fact. :p

puma
December 14, 2007, 09:20 PM
At least Hitsu's back story has given us hope that Kubo will one day give us back stories about our other fav captains- Patience.

It will be interesting to witness the effect of his captainship on other characters, that is if the movie includes all these details. Well, as long as Matsu is ever present to provide some ..ilk relief, I cant complain:eyeroll

dreamzsai
December 14, 2007, 11:13 PM
...about him only hurting luppi a little...wasn't luppi about to die until he the negacion beam saved him? in which case, he would have killed a number 6 espada....but i could be wrong, too lazy to go back and check.

Yea, Luppi was about to die when the Negacion came and saved his @$%.
So Hitsuguya actually defeated a No6 Espada(same rank as Grimmjaw) with just Bankai, while Ichigo took Bankai+Vizard form :p
So, he is actually stronger than Ichigo ;) Or at least close in strength, so guys, please stop saying he is weak :D

I'm actually looking forward to seeing the movie myself, since the trailers look like it's pretty nice. I'd at least like to see the Ichigo vs Hitsuguya part. :amuse

gigantor21
December 14, 2007, 11:33 PM
Bleach is best when it deals with the human side of its characters. This omake is another example of that. The lack of emphasis on it recently is why I haven't liked the HM arc--and with the enemies in Las Noches, it's damn near impossible. Evil spirits can only be so relatable.

Hopefully, we'll move back to it during the War.

On the chapter, I thought it was great. Besides the human element, I thought it was really well written--the symbolism was especially good. Kubo can speak volumes when he writes on metaphorical terms. I also liked the artwork, particularly the panel layout, but again, everything was good.

Here's hoping it'll be just as strong with the other (vice) captains.

honeybunch
December 14, 2007, 11:47 PM
Why is it that I find this single chapter more interesting and compelling than the entire current Bleach story arc?

Either there's something wrong with my taste, or there's something wrong with the direction Bleach has gone in. I'm thinking the latter.

I really hope that this chapter signifies the return of the series to something that is about more than just action, style and constant powering up.

gigantor21
December 14, 2007, 11:58 PM
^ You took the words right out of my mouth.


So, he is actually stronger than Ichigo ;) Or at least close in strength, so guys, please stop saying he is weak :D

Is he not the same Hitsugaya that struggled as much as Renji against a Fraccion? While Zaraki killed Tesla with one hit, and Byakuya had to cripple himself before taking down #7? Weren't both of those captains who barely lost to Ichigo BEFORE he had the mask? And wasn't that the same Luppi who Grimmjow incinerated in one shot--Grimmjow, who could barely scratch Ulquiorra?

That win signifies nothing. The power structure is way too messed up.

TheChosenOne
December 15, 2007, 12:29 AM
Just read the chapter, it was better than I thought. It was great to see how Hitsu discovered his power. Is Matsumoto a vice captain, so how did Hitsu become a captain. :)

AngryChubbs
December 15, 2007, 01:29 AM
^ You took the words right out of my mouth.



Is he not the same Hitsugaya that struggled as much as Renji against a Fraccion? While Zaraki killed Tesla with one hit, and Byakuya had to cripple himself before taking down #7? Weren't both of those captains who barely lost to Ichigo BEFORE he had the mask? And wasn't that the same Luppi who Grimmjow incinerated in one shot--Grimmjow, who could barely scratch Ulquiorra?

That win signifies nothing. The power structure is way too messed up.

well to be fair, when he fought against the fraccion, he was fighting at 1/5 his power and as soon as the release came through, he killed it in one attack along with the rest of the shinigami. so i dont think its fair to say that he is only as strong as a fraccion. and byakuya and kenpachi started off at full power and new what they were getting themselves into. i mean when hitsugaya came, soul society new very little about the espada and fraccion...im pretty sure they didn't know how they were ranked, as well as that they could "release" and get more powerful.

so while hitsugaya may not be the strongest, he definetly isn't the weakest.

TheChosenOne
December 15, 2007, 02:09 AM
Well Hitsu said himself that he needed to go bankai for Yammi, Who is the weakest espada. I think Hitsu will eventually be one of the stronger captain, he may replace yamma as commander. I like that chapter, hitsu being that powerful when that young is amazing. :)

Hollow Kurono
December 15, 2007, 07:56 AM
Well Hitsu said himself that he needed to go bankai for Yammi, Who is the weakest espada. I think Hitsu will eventually be one of the stronger captain, he may replace yamma as commander. I like that chapter, hitsu being that powerful when that young is amazing. :)

I think theres no queastion hes going to be the strongest captain in da future,just look at him,hes a kid in a group with grown man and beein almost at the same level as they are,he is da future of gotei 13,ofcourse if Ichigo stays in Kurakara as a replacment shinigami,cause Toushirou wouldnt beat Ichigo,ull see taht in da movie,i hope.But theres gonna be some time before Toushirou is goin to replace Yammi,if he even replaces him,probably we aint goin to see that.

Looks like Matsumotos boobs got bigger from that time,sh!t when Toushirou got hit i thought that was Mayuri or something,or he got hit with a plate,i realy didnt understand,then i look thats Matsumoto,taht was fun.

Ok from da prewiev that was wrriten in da chapter,im expectin a good fight from Mayuri and Szayel.

hollowdemon
December 15, 2007, 09:35 AM
same here kubo already wrote and stated that its going to be a shocking battle !!
well im just hoping and believing that its not going to be another one of those side story continuation again ... nothing against hitsugaya i just wants the las noches battles to move on and we find out whats going on for the winter arc :D

Zeus-Tails
December 15, 2007, 10:31 AM
I think Hitsugaya fans are getting a bit too optimistic. Compare Hitsugaya before he went to the Sereitei and Kenpachi before Kenpachi went to Sereitei.

Hitsugaya had some good reiatsu but Kenpachi was straight up killing people left and right. Kenpachi's raw power exceeds Hitsugaya's raw power by so much. Even Hitsugaya learning his sword's name and getting a half-matured bankai doesn't fill that gap. That's saying something.

Kenpachi took on Komamura and Tousen without taking off his eyepatch while Hitsugaya had to go full power bankai to defeat Shawlong. Kenpachi, IMO still has the most potential next to Ichigo.

Anyway, it's hard to believe that Hitsugaya, who is currently among the bottom captains will jump up to the top of the captains just by maturing his half-matured bankai. Even for some Hitsugaya fans, that would be a tough pill to swallow. I believe he may be on Byakuya's level when fully matured but he's still going to get his butt handed to him by fighters like Aizen, Yamamoto, Kyoraku, Ukitake, Ichigo and Kenpachi...oh and Yoruichi and Urahara too.

One thing that will be a bit funny. You remember against Luppi that Hitsugaya said he could use water in the atmosphere to power up his bankai? Now the next arc will be the WINTER war and he has an ICE zanpakutoh. Darn Kishi planned this all along. I knew something was up when he chose Winter over Summer :p. Hitsugaya is going to shine in the Winter War and he may even force Gin to go bankai this time. However, I still don't think he'll ever get to the top level.

hollowdemon
December 15, 2007, 10:41 AM
well we cant count out that hitsugaya is still much younger than anybody in the seated ranks at the moment. We dont know how the whole age system works in soul society but im pretty sure that he is the youngest one in it.
Its a sign for kubo to put everything in the winter for the movie and the winter war. That sign is for hitsugaya, who will eventually come through and emerge as one of the strongest captains by giving him some time while he grows older and develops more by training.

p.s-good idea on the thought of him fighting Gin during the winter war :D

Hollow Kurono
December 15, 2007, 10:45 AM
^^Its Kubo not Kishi,well Ken is stronger then Hitsuguya but im telling u,he is the youngest captain there,he has a long,long life before him and hes already that strong and still i dont think that Kubo is planing a big role for Toushiro again.Well maybe he is,but this winter was is going to be crazy.

hollowdemon
December 15, 2007, 10:56 AM
well to have a side story in the middle of an exciting hueco mundo battle arc and a MOVIE ?!?!
thats just too big for one captain to have that much air time without having the other captains revealed. Its one of those obvious signs that kubo wants to let us know either theres going to be a captain that dies or a captain that emerges to become stronger than every other captain, which he happened to pick hitsugaya in my opinion
but i still cant say for sure that hitsugaya will be "The Man" for the gotei 13 captains but it looks plausible at this moment. :D

im sure all other captains like mayuri are banging kubo's door to get more air time right now :D

AngryChubbs
December 15, 2007, 11:12 AM
i hope kubo doesnt start killing off main characters like hitsugaya and whatnot. i mean the gotei 13 already suffered a giant blow from aizen when 3 captains defected so they dont really need any more damage done to them.

hollowdemon
December 15, 2007, 11:21 AM
well technically they didnt really "die" they just ..... crossed over to the dark side :D
i mean its really needed for bleach to have one of the good guys to die and not live the rest of the whole bleach manga. its just a matter of time i think so even though i dont want any.

gigantor21
December 15, 2007, 11:43 AM
I fully agree with Zeus. Hitsugaya has potential, but he'll never be the strongest.

And characters getting killed off is a hallmark of any War. It's inevitable. The quality of the arc rests on how well Kubo can handle that.

black_burn
December 15, 2007, 12:03 PM
I want some characters to get killed off cuz so far none have even died(meaning the goodguys), but i don't want hitsugaya to be that person. maybe yamma and then he'd get a funeral like sandaime.

AngryChubbs
December 15, 2007, 12:03 PM
well i know that characters have to be killed in a war, but i was just saying that soul society already suffered a huge hit when 3 captains defected...they werent killed off...but it was just as close becaues they arent on their team any more.

Zeus-Tails
December 15, 2007, 12:12 PM
If Szayel dies, I want Mayuri to die as well. Maybe the shock will be Szayel's kamikaze technique or something.

gigantor21
December 15, 2007, 12:23 PM
well i know that characters have to be killed in a war, but i was just saying that soul society already suffered a huge hit when 3 captains defected...they werent killed off...but it was just as close becaues they arent on their team any more.

Yeah, I know. But that's just it--none of the captains, vice captains or other notable SS allies have died yet. Some of them HAVE to during the War; again, it's inevitable with story arcs like this. That's all I'm saying.

ANBU4U
December 15, 2007, 12:32 PM
Yeah, I know. But that's just it--none of the captains, vice captains or other notable SS allies have died yet. Some of them HAVE to during the War; again, it's inevitable with story arcs like this. That's all I'm saying.

Maybe a human, like say...Orihime, or Perhaps Ishida. Not sure about Chad...

But Kubo has set a pretty obscene precedent for what it takes to mortally injure a shiningami. If Rukia's still alive then nothing kills them short of decapitation...or total annihilation.

Wire
December 15, 2007, 12:34 PM
One reason Hitsugaya has become a more important character may be that he is like Ichigo. He has a large amount of pressure but has problems controlling it. Ichigo's bankai is probably incomplete to since supposedly it takes ten years of training to master a zanpuktou.

TheChosenOne
December 15, 2007, 12:48 PM
I want some characters to get killed off cuz so far none have even died(meaning the goodguys), but i don't want hitsugaya to be that person. maybe yamma and then he'd get a funeral like sandaime.

Yamma being the strongest, I doubt anyone will kill him. Does shinigami's even have funerals, since they control death. Has any shinigami died, I don't remember anyone dying that was a shinigami.:)


If Szayel dies, I want Mayuri to die as well. Maybe the shock will be Szayel's kamikaze technique or something.

Whoa, Mayuri's death I doubt that. Since Kubo looks to give every captain a win, Mayuri losing and dying would be a shocker. I think Mayuri will finish of Szayel like how Byakuya did with Zomari, after his bankai. :)


Yeah, I know. But that's just it--none of the captains, vice captains or other notable SS allies have died yet. Some of them HAVE to during the War; again, it's inevitable with story arcs like this. That's all I'm saying.

Maybe one of the seated member can die, Not 11th squad, but everyone else seems weak. I hope some of the lame vice captain die, they have no use to the story so their death could bring up someone better. :)

gigantor21
December 15, 2007, 01:00 PM
^ What about Kaien? His death plays an integral role in Rukia's character.

TheChosenOne
December 15, 2007, 01:07 PM
I forgot about Kaien, but he didn't die right cuz the hollow absorbed him. :)

gigantor21
December 15, 2007, 01:08 PM
^ LOL well he's certainly dead now. Right? :p

Let's how that he won't be the only one after the main story picks up again. Apollo, I'm looking at you.

Sephirosu
December 15, 2007, 01:15 PM
^ What about Kaien? His death plays an integral role in Rukia's character.

Well right now I wouldn't worry so much on Rukia since if she had the " guts " to kill that guy even thou he looked like Kain, I don't think it should be a problem for her. Besides, the poor chick is half dead! If Hanataro (or was it the other chick from the 4th Squad...) doesn't hurry to heal her, she might get worst! Damn it hate it when they do that. They go from one thing to another and another with no end....

Zeus-Tails
December 15, 2007, 03:09 PM
To Hitsugaya fans: AGE MEANS NOTHING! The only thing that matters is your limit as a shinigami. Once you plateau, you can't go any further unless you use other methods (gaining hollow powers) to break past the barrier.

I'm pretty sure every shinigami has enough time in their life span to reach their limits if they are determined. Aizen looks fairly young and he's already reached his limits. If he trained the next 100 years with only his shinigami powers, he'd make 0 progress besides maybe experience.

I doubt Hitsugaya's limits would be so high since his current power (with a bankai) is rather low. Furthermore, you can guess how high a person's limits would be by how strong they are raw. Ichigo and Kenpachi are both strong raw (natural power; disregard knowing sword names and bankai) so their limit may be higher than usual. With Ichigo, even if he reaches his limit, he has hollows powers so he's going to break past his limit.

Anyway, age in this discussion will only bring more experience by the time he's matured. However, his limit will be the same. Experience does not help that much IMO because Byakuya is very experienced, yet Ichigo comes in and just make him look bad because of Ichigo's power (Not counting the final result; IMO Ichigo kills Byakuya...unfortunate that Ichigo spared Byakuya's life and gave Byakuya a fighting chance).

Audition
December 15, 2007, 10:11 PM
lame story thats it

dont quote this message ^_^

TheChosenOne
December 15, 2007, 10:21 PM
I wonder how Hitsu became a captain, since Matsumoto was a vice captain in this chapter. Did he use the Zaraki method to become a captain or the other two steps. :)

Leen
December 15, 2007, 10:27 PM
I don't think this chapter is boring at all. At least we get to see Hitsugaya's Hyourinmaru's original form. Also, consider this as a break from all the captains' fights.

I believe that Kubo must have a reason to put Hitsugaya gaiden into the middle of the fight. Maybe to boost the reception for this coming DiamondDust Rebellion ?

We get a glimpse on Matsumoto and Hitsugaya relationship too. That's a good thing since I have always wondered how Matsumoto get to be working with Hitsugaya.

^_^

TheChosenOne
December 15, 2007, 10:30 PM
Well missing a could be kenpachi fight in the chapter was a disappointment. I was also glad that to see Hitsu's becoming, and his past and his reason for his attitude. Well its funny that Matsumoto calls Hitsu boy and now calls him captain. :)

akatsuki27
December 15, 2007, 10:36 PM
I wonder how Hitsu became a captain, since Matsumoto was a vice captain in this chapter. Did he use the Zaraki method to become a captain or the other two steps. :)

theres nothing that said she was already a lieutenant....she's not wearing her arm patch so that conclusion cant be made

gigantor21
December 15, 2007, 10:44 PM
^ And does it matter?

And I'm with Leen--at the very VERY least, it was still better than anything in the Apollo fight, so getting a break was nice. :p

Hollow Kurono
December 16, 2007, 04:42 AM
I wonder how Hitsu became a captain, since Matsumoto was a vice captain in this chapter. Did he use the Zaraki method to become a captain or the other two steps. :)

She definantly wasnt a vice captain,she probably wasnt in the group she is right now.Hitsu probably was to strong and had to replace some captain.Maybe his the one with the mask in da movie.But seems to me his some kind of friend.

Zeus-Tails
December 16, 2007, 05:16 AM
From the previews in the movie, why the hell is Ichigo having trouble fighting Hitsugaya. I really hope it's because he's holding back against a friend because I know Ichigo could kill Hitsugaya in seconds.

Hollow Kurono
December 16, 2007, 05:45 AM
^^Maybe with his mask he can,but not with his bankai,Ichigo is stronger then him,but he wouldnt defeat him that easily and theres no queastion that hes hoolding back.And Ichigo as u can see doesnt have his vizard powers and Inoue is going to be in there.

Zeus-Tails
December 16, 2007, 05:58 AM
Uhm, did you see how fast Ichigo could have killed Byakuya with only his bankai but he spared Byakuya's life. I'm pretty sure Ichigo could do the same to Hitsugaya but this time slash his throat and literally KILL HIM IN SECONDS.

Hollow Kurono
December 16, 2007, 07:54 AM
Uhm, did you see how fast Ichigo could have killed Byakuya with only his bankai but he spared Byakuya's life. I'm pretty sure Ichigo could do the same to Hitsugaya but this time slash his throat and literally KILL HIM IN SECONDS.

Yeah he could have but he didnt get a chance like that in the entire fight,im not hating on Ichigo and loving on Byakuya but Ichigo got that close cause Byakuya didnt expect something like that from him.And then he didnt get a chance like that and Toushirou will be ready for that i think.

ttxdragon
December 16, 2007, 08:25 AM
You clearly miss one fact, HollowKurono:

Ichigo got that fact again even after the first time.
So, Ichigo IS faster than Byakuya and would be able to kill him. At least as long as Byakuya doesn't use the techniques he used against Zomari -- it seems those give him speed-overkill...


as for ichigo vs. toushiro:
Depends on how well toushiro can stop wounds from bleeding while in bankai... we know that it can hold back some wounds, but don't know the whole extend...


And I'm really anticipating the fight in the movie... it will be fun <3

Hollow Kurono
December 16, 2007, 08:39 AM
You clearly miss one fact, HollowKurono:

Ichigo got that fact again even after the first time.
So, Ichigo IS faster than Byakuya and would be able to kill him. At least as long as Byakuya doesn't use the techniques he used against Zomari -- it seems those give him speed-overkill...



I know that Ichigo is faster,but the thing i was sayin is that Ichgo didnt get a chance at his throat like the first time,i know hes faster,stronger and that he can kill him,but im tellin u is that Ichigo got to his throat cause Byakuya wasnt expectin much from his bankai.

ttxdragon
December 16, 2007, 08:42 AM
ichigo got byakuyas throat/neck two times, one time without byakuya expecting it, second time with expecting the speed of ichigos bankai.
(i count removing heads and slitting throats as equally deathly)

Hollow Kurono
December 16, 2007, 09:29 AM
ichigo got byakuyas throat/neck two times, one time without byakuya expecting it, second time with expecting the speed of ichigos bankai.
(i count removing heads and slitting throats as equally deathly)

I count that to,but when was the second time,i dont remeber that at all.Let me see,if u know which chapter was it?

black_burn
December 16, 2007, 09:56 AM
Ichigo can't be holding back he's on bankai and Hitsugayais on shikai with his limit on and holding his own , ichigo with the 11 second mask is not that powerful as we have seen with Grimjow after the mask breaks he will be decimated........in the movie Ichigo will be frozen i got to see that.

Zeus-Tails
December 16, 2007, 11:51 AM
We don't need to count a second time. He only needed the first chance. It doesn't matter if Byakuya expected Ichigo's speed or not because Byakuya admitted that he didn't even have time to react. Even if you're expecting something, if you don't have time to react, you can't do anything about it.

If Ichigo wasn't naive (I don't think he's actually killed anyone so far), Byakuya would be dead in seconds. You only need one time to kill someone.

hollowdemon
December 16, 2007, 11:57 AM
Sorry couldnt provide the chapter where ichigo had byakuyas throat the second time :(
but it was after byakuya said "miracles only happen once" and ichigo proved him wrong which made him look like a complete jackass :p

well lets not count out hitsugaya on his battle with ichigo that fast after all he IS a captain and just because we saw the battle between ichigo and byakuya doesnt necessarily mean that hitsugaya is toast if he face ichigo at one point or the other.

Matsumoto wasnt a vice captain since yes she wasnt wearing the armband but then again from what renji and iba said when they were rounded together for the vice captain meeting in the SS arc they said they didnt really wear the armbands unless theyre in a meeting. Even though they said that i still dont believe that matsumoto was a vice captain at the time.

fosskers
December 16, 2007, 12:16 PM
Remember when the vice-captains assembled for the first time:

1. It was the first time we ever saw Hinamori.
2. It was the first time we ever saw Matsumoto
3. Renji said to Tetsuzaemon, "Who was her captain again?" and then "Oh ya, that kid genius."

How would a vice-captain not know who all the captains were? Hitsugaya still must have been relatively new.
That, and it was mentioned by the one Arrancer he fought that he Bankai isn't complete.

And yes, I'm fairly sure Ichigo could own Hitsugaya without trying, but meh, I guess they need some action for the movie.

Zeus-Tails
December 16, 2007, 12:18 PM
Byakuya said Ichigo sword-to-throat thing was a miracle and said "miracles only happen once." Then when Byakuya used sebonzakura, Ichigo knocked all that crap away and Ichigo said "I thought you said miracles only happen once?" which translates into "YOU SUCK, BYAKUYA! JUST DIE ALREADY!"

Anyway Hitsugaya doesn't have any good tricks like Tousen's bankai. He's a normal kind of captain. Works with speed and power. Ichigo is way faster than him and more powerful. Hitsu has 0 chance if Ichigo does not hold back.

AngryChubbs
December 16, 2007, 12:28 PM
Uhm, did you see how fast Ichigo could have killed Byakuya with only his bankai but he spared Byakuya's life. I'm pretty sure Ichigo could do the same to Hitsugaya but this time slash his throat and literally KILL HIM IN SECONDS.

ummm....did you see how when byakuya first met ichigo, ichigo couldn't even see byakuya attack him....ummm, did you see how the second time when he met ichigo he could follow his speed but yoruichi had to save him from his shikai.....ummm, did you see how the 3rd time they met, byakuya was going easy on ichigo because he didn't believe that ichigo could actually attain his bankai and was fighting a bankai ichigo with just his shikai.

ummm, did you see how byakuya was holding off ichigo the whole time after he called out his bankai and ichigo was starting to lose the battle because he was getting slower and byakuya wasn't.

anyone can kill anyone if they do a full power attack from the very begining. hell, ichigo couldnt even cut kenpachi and kenpachi was just playing around but in the end, they came to a draw only because kenpachi allowed it for a good fight. and the same with byakuya, byakuya allowed it to come to a draw cause he underestimated ichigo.

hollowdemon
December 16, 2007, 12:29 PM
well we're not quite sure if in this movie ichigo already able to hold his hollow mask or he's even on the verge of going to the vaizards we dont know that yet. As far as just bankai wise i wouldnt quite give it to ichigo COMPLETELY but ill say that itll be a good match if they do go all out in the battle. Dont count on dragon ice to be let up by a speed bankai of ichigo. It has more moves than you guys expect it does, just like the sneak attacks with the tail or the move where it pwned luppi.

if the side story continues about hitsugaya from the past then im guessing itll stop when he becomes a captain since i think when the SS arc it wasnt too long after hitsugaya became a captain

adel123456789
December 16, 2007, 12:30 PM
yahhhhhhhh

AngryChubbs
December 16, 2007, 12:34 PM
I know that Ichigo is faster,but the thing i was sayin is that Ichgo didnt get a chance at his throat like the first time,i know hes faster,stronger and that he can kill him,but im tellin u is that Ichigo got to his throat cause Byakuya wasnt expectin much from his bankai.
i completely agree with you
byakuya wasn't even trying and completely underestimated ichigo


well we're not quite sure if in this movie ichigo already able to hold his hollow mask or he's even on the verge of going to the vaizards we dont know that yet. As far as just bankai wise i wouldnt quite give it to ichigo COMPLETELY but ill say that itll be a good match if they do go all out in the battle. Dont count on dragon ice to be let up by a speed bankai of ichigo. It has more moves than you guys expect it does, just like the sneak attacks with the tail or the move where it pwned luppi.

if the side story continues about hitsugaya from the past then im guessing itll stop when he becomes a captain since i think when the SS arc it wasnt too long after hitsugaya became a captain
i dont think he should have his mask because if it follows the manga at all...as soon as he got his mask, he started to train with the vizards and then immediately afterwards, he goes to HM without finishing his training....but it might not follow the manga at all like so many movies dont so who knows.

Zeus-Tails
December 16, 2007, 03:44 PM
ummm....did you see how when byakuya first met ichigo, ichigo couldn't even see byakuya attack him....ummm, did you see how the second time when he met ichigo he could follow his speed but yoruichi had to save him from his shikai.....ummm, did you see how the 3rd time they met, byakuya was going easy on ichigo because he didn't believe that ichigo could actually attain his bankai and was fighting a bankai ichigo with just his shikai.

ummm, did you see how byakuya was holding off ichigo the whole time after he called out his bankai and ichigo was starting to lose the battle because he was getting slower and byakuya wasn't.

anyone can kill anyone if they do a full power attack from the very begining. hell, ichigo couldnt even cut kenpachi and kenpachi was just playing around but in the end, they came to a draw only because kenpachi allowed it for a good fight. and the same with byakuya, byakuya allowed it to come to a draw cause he underestimated ichigo.

WHat part of EVEN IF YOU ARE EXPECTING IT, IF YOU CANNOT REACT TO IT THEN YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING don't you understand? I don't care if he underestimated him, even if he expect the best, he COULDN'T REACT FAST ENOUGH. If you are standing in front of someone who has a gun pointed to you and you expect him to shoot, does that mean you can dodge it? No, because you cannot react fast enough. I hope you understand ^^

Btw, Ichigo wasn't doing full power. He was just showing his speed. Speed is just something you have. It doesn't mean he went full power. Full power is putting all his reiatsu into a strike or getsuga blast. If he uses his speed, all he has to do is a simple slash of the throat with a normal blade.

AngryChubbs
December 16, 2007, 03:53 PM
WHat part of EVEN IF YOU ARE EXPECTING IT, IF YOU CANNOT REACT TO IT THEN YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING don't you understand? I don't care if he underestimated him, even if he expect the best, he COULDN'T REACT FAST ENOUGH. If you are standing in front of someone who has a gun pointed to you and you expect him to shoot, does that mean you can dodge it? No, because you cannot react fast enough. I hope you understand ^^

Btw, Ichigo wasn't doing full power. He was just showing his speed. Speed is just something you have. It doesn't mean he went full power. Full power is putting all his reiatsu into a strike or getsuga blast. If he uses his speed, all he has to do is a simple slash of the throat with a normal blade.

so by your logic, byakuya is helpless against ichigo?

Zeus-Tails
December 16, 2007, 04:02 PM
so by your logic, byakuya is helpless against ichigo?

lol you just figuring that out now? Were you paying attention during the fight? The ONLY reason Byakuya had any chance was because Ichigo was using his bankai for long and his inexperience weakened him.

matrice
December 16, 2007, 04:49 PM
The chapter qas pretty good, but I really wanted to see more action, maybe a little one shot in which Inamori is in danger and Itsugaia awakens his shinigami powers and kill the hollow before the other shinigami, thus being recognized as a genius... Something like the time when Ichigo cut Urahara's hat with his special attac, getsuga tenso, without truly realizing what he was doing.

KyanWan
December 16, 2007, 09:07 PM
lol you just figuring that out now? Were you paying attention during the fight? The ONLY reason Byakuya had any chance was because Ichigo was using his bankai for long and his inexperience weakened him.

And Ichigo was shredded by an Espada, where Byakuya fought & defeated one effortlessly with one hand.

Byakuya wasn't defeated, he just got lucked by Ichigo. If it weren't for Ichigo almost getting consumed by his hollow - he would have definitely lost outright.


The chapter qas pretty good, but I really wanted to see more action, maybe a little one shot in which Inamori is in danger and Itsugaia awakens his shinigami powers and kill the hollow before the other shinigami, thus being recognized as a genius... Something like the time when Ichigo cut Urahara's hat with his special attac, getsuga tenso, without truly realizing what he was doing.

I really doubt if Hitsuyaga does something - he's not going to know exactly what he's doing.

Hitsuyaga is not a complete moron/idiot like Ichigo.

Hockeychaoz
December 16, 2007, 09:56 PM
ummm....did you see how when byakuya first met ichigo, ichigo couldn't even see byakuya attack him....ummm, did you see how the second time when he met ichigo he could follow his speed but yoruichi had to save him from his shikai.....ummm, did you see how the 3rd time they met, byakuya was going easy on ichigo because he didn't believe that ichigo could actually attain his bankai and was fighting a bankai ichigo with just his shikai.

ummm, did you see how byakuya was holding off ichigo the whole time after he called out his bankai and ichigo was starting to lose the battle because he was getting slower and byakuya wasn't.

anyone can kill anyone if they do a full power attack from the very begining. hell, ichigo couldnt even cut kenpachi and kenpachi was just playing around but in the end, they came to a draw only because kenpachi allowed it for a good fight. and the same with byakuya, byakuya allowed it to come to a draw cause he underestimated ichigo.


Byakuya released Bankai before Ichigo. Ichigo was the one fighting with shikai against bankai.
[hr]

lol you just figuring that out now? Were you paying attention during the fight? The ONLY reason Byakuya had any chance was because Ichigo was using his bankai for long and his inexperience weakened him.

Theres nothing saying that Ichigo is obviously superior to Byakuya.
As I remember it, before H-ichi stepped in, his head was about to be cut off.
And before the fight really started, Ichigo took Byakuya by surprise and could have attacked. I don't think that Ichigo's speed is somethg that Byakuya can't handle. Just the first one where he put his blade against his throat, it was a surprise. Now that Byakuya knows about the speed increase, I don't think it'd work again.

TheChosenOne
December 16, 2007, 11:31 PM
so by your logic, byakuya is helpless against ichigo?

Well, Hollow Ichigo did say that Ichigo was defeated cuz his bankai's reiatsu cracked his bones. So at that fight, if Ichigo had mastered his bankai, he definitely would have won. I wonder what will happen at their current state, I think Byakuya would win without Ichigo Mask, but with Mask I would have to side with Ichigo :)


And Ichigo was shredded by an Espada, where Byakuya fought & defeated one effortlessly with one hand.

Ichigo was winning against Grimm, until he got hit by those shots that went for Orihime. Even after Grimm unleased Desaguron, Ichigo defeated Grimm. Byakuya had the perfect opponent, it was a numbers fight, where he obviously won. I wonder if Byakuya would be on par with Grimm. :)


Byakuya wasn't defeated, he just got lucked by Ichigo. If it weren't for Ichigo almost getting consumed by his hollow - he would have definitely lost outright.

Ichigo lost cuz of his inexperience with bankai, where byakuya had mastered it. Hollow Ichigo said that was the reason for his loss. :)

AngryChubbs
December 17, 2007, 12:00 AM
And Ichigo was shredded by an Espada, where Byakuya fought & defeated one effortlessly with one hand.

Byakuya wasn't defeated, he just got lucked by Ichigo. If it weren't for Ichigo almost getting consumed by his hollow - he would have definitely lost outright.



I really doubt if Hitsuyaga does something - he's not going to know exactly what he's doing.

Hitsuyaga is not a complete moron/idiot like Ichigo.

hitsugaya is a prodigy and seems quite smart to me...

Zeus-Tails
December 17, 2007, 03:42 AM
And Ichigo was shredded by an Espada, where Byakuya fought & defeated one effortlessly with one hand.

Byakuya wasn't defeated, he just got lucked by Ichigo. If it weren't for Ichigo almost getting consumed by his hollow - he would have definitely lost outright.


It's more like Byakuya got lucky that Ichigo's bankai started to weaken him from experience. As I said before, if Ichigo wasn't naive, Byakuya would be dead before the bankai had a chance to slow down. It wouldn't even come to no Hollow stuff. Ichigo had the kill, Byakuya could do NOTHING about it, but Ichigo spared him.

hollowdemon
December 17, 2007, 08:43 AM
And just like outcome of byakuya is just like the outcome of the ichigo vs grimmjow battle. He somehow manages to spare an enemies life and in the future having him as an ally which leads me to believe at some point grimmjow will try to fight las noches.

*-15*
Hitsugaya was just unaware of his reiatsu which results him into a shock when matsumoto revealed to him that his reiatsu was hurting his granny :( (aww)
but im sure once hitsugaya has more of those bankai dreams and manages to know what it is to control it thats when he becomes that boy genius he is.
He's probably going to show bankai when hes in the academy to impress one of the captains or somethin thats how i think he managed to receive the captain position or kill a really strong hollow/enemy that nobody was able to kill. :D

black_burn
December 17, 2007, 11:01 AM
Masks are overrated ,basically what people think now is once u have a hollw maks you are stronger than a captain....Kenpachi can own any vizard...byakuya can own ichigo .... Hitsugaya is going to be the strongest.

Hollow Kurono
December 17, 2007, 03:49 PM
Masks are overrated ,basically what people think now is once u have a hollw maks you are stronger than a captain....Kenpachi can own any vizard...byakuya can own ichigo .... Hitsugaya is going to be the strongest.

WHAAAT??!!HItsuguya aint going to be the strongest,we wont see the time when hes going to be the strongest.Masks aint overrated,Zaraki wouldnt beat Shinji,so quit imaginating.Byakuya owning Ichigo,tsk,i thought Ichigo owned Byakuya.Masks aint overrated,u saw what Ichigo does in 11seconds,more training and the dude is unstopable.

gigantor21
December 17, 2007, 04:09 PM
Masks are overrated ,basically what people think now is once u have a hollw maks you are stronger than a captain....Kenpachi can own any vizard...byakuya can own ichigo .... Hitsugaya is going to be the strongest.

No.

For one, you've no evidence for any of those claims. Do you know how strong the Vizards are? Has Zaraki fought anyone above a captain before Noritora? Do you know how much stronger Grimmjow was than Zommari? There's nothing to back that up.

Second, who said every Vaizard is stronger than the captains? Again, we don't know that. But the ideae behind hybridization is breaking the limits a Shinigami possesses; that alone makes them, and Ichigo, valuable allies. There's nothing "overrated" about it.

And lastly, why Hitsugaya? He has plenty of potential, being the youngest captain in Gotei 13, but do you really think ALL of it will be unveiled during the War? That he'll be able to outstrip Byakuya, Zaraki, Ukitake, Shunsui AND Yamamoto in a few days of strife? The War will pull a lot out of everyone, for sure, but that claim is the most unfounded of all, and smacks of blind fanboyism IMO. A charge I don't make lightly.

And to go back on topic, it has nothing to do with the chapter. I don't know why people are bringing this up. What in Hitsugaya's backstory suggests anything about how strong he'll become?

TheChosenOne
December 17, 2007, 07:22 PM
Masks are overrated ,basically what people think now is once u have a hollw maks you are stronger than a captain....Kenpachi can own any vizard...byakuya can own ichigo .... Hitsugaya is going to be the strongest.

Yes, I totally agree, not. There is no way that a captain can defeat a Vaizard, not someone like Kenpachi. Vaizard's mask allow them to break the shinigami limit and crossover to a whole tier of power. I agree that Kenpachi will his fullest potential might be on par with Shiniji, but if shiniji is maxed out in shingami and hollow, no way. Ichigo would destroy byakuya with his bankai, the only reason he lost in SS, cuz he did not master his bankai well. Ichigo with mask is overkill against Byakuya. :)

Zeus-Tails
December 17, 2007, 09:14 PM
There is no way that a captain can defeat a Vaizard, not someone like Kenpachi. Vaizard's mask allow them to break the shinigami limit and crossover to a whole tier of power. I agree that Kenpachi will his fullest potential might be on par with Shiniji, but if shiniji is maxed out in shingami and hollow, no way.

Okay seriously, this statement sounds kind of stupid. Just because someone has hollow and shinigami powers doesn't mean they automatically are stronger than shinigami captains. We don't know at what stage they got their hollow powers. We don't even know if they were anywhere near reaching their shinigami limits. Furthermore, how the hell are you comparing Kenpachi and Shinji anyway? The only time we saw Shinji fight was against Grimmjow when Grimmjow was not at max power (lack of an arm), not released and had already been fighting Ichigo. Grandma can probably do good against Grimmjow at that point. He has friggin ONE arm and didn't release yet!

I'm pretty sure some of these Vizards are weaker than captains and I have a feeling none of them are at Kyoraku, Ukitake and Yamamoto's level. They all look rather young so they probably don't have as much experience and they are probably no where near their potential limits as a shinigami. I think the following reasons are possibilities on why the VIzards went for Hollows powers:

1) They sucked as Shinigami so they wanted an easy way to get more power
2) They already reached their limits (unlikely)
3) They didn't like SS and/or they were exiled for some reason which would limit their training and getting more power

TheChosenOne
December 17, 2007, 11:37 PM
Okay seriously, this statement sounds kind of stupid. Just because someone has hollow and shinigami powers doesn't mean they automatically are stronger than shinigami captains. We don't know at what stage they got their hollow powers. We don't even know if they were anywhere near reaching their shinigami limits. Furthermore, how the hell are you comparing Kenpachi and Shinji anyway? The only time we saw Shinji fight was against Grimmjow when Grimmjow was not at max power (lack of an arm), not released and had already been fighting Ichigo. Grandma can probably do good against Grimmjow at that point. He has friggin ONE arm and didn't release yet!

The most obvious reason for a vaizard to have hollow powers is that they reached their shinigami limits. So kenpachi who does not know the name of his sword is on par with shinji :confused who may know shikai and even bankai plus has mastered his hollow powers, Ya, I agree how did I reach a ludicrous conclusion like shinji is stronger. :)


I'm pretty sure some of these Vizards are weaker than captains and I have a feeling none of them are at Kyoraku, Ukitake and Yamamoto's level. They all look rather young so they probably don't have as much experience and they are probably no where near their potential limits as a shinigami. I think the following reasons are possibilities on why the VIzards went for Hollows powers:

1) They sucked as Shinigami so they I an easy way to get more power
2) They already reached their limits (unlikely)
3) They didn't like SS and/or they were exiled for some reason which would limit their training and getting more powerI agree that they may not be on level of yamma and the others but they are most likely on par or stronger than the rest. They know a lot about aizen and ss, so they must have been around for some time. Why is it unlikely for them to reach their limits. :)

ChickenFajita
December 18, 2007, 12:13 AM
Didn't Shikai Ichi get his sack punched by masked Hiori? Then later most of the Vizard fought hollow er... beast Ichi and didn't even have to use their masks cept when Ichizilla was about to fire a cero right?

Maybe I am missing something, and man... that could easily be so given how inconsistent Ichi has been since SS. That aside, if Ichi was able to beat down Kenpachi and Byakuya, wouldn't that mean indirectly the Vizard are stronger... or at least lend credence to that notion?

As for the chapter... yeah it was a back story but it didn't seem to me to have a lot in it. I guess I might have prefered several chapters devoted to it like a Gaiden.

but thats just me and folks tell me I aiint right.

AngryChubbs
December 18, 2007, 12:18 AM
Masks are overrated ,basically what people think now is once u have a hollw maks you are stronger than a captain....Kenpachi can own any vizard...byakuya can own ichigo .... Hitsugaya is going to be the strongest.


Didn't Shikai Ichi get his sack punched by masked Hiori? Then later most of the Vizard fought hollow er... beast Ichi and didn't even have to use their masks cept when Ichizilla was about to fire a cero right?

Maybe I am missing something, and man... that could easily be so given how inconsistent Ichi has been since SS. That aside, if Ichi was able to beat down Kenpachi and Byakuya, wouldn't that mean indirectly the Vizard are stronger... or at least lend credence to that notion?

As for the chapter... yeah it was a back story but it didn't seem to me to have a lot in it. I guess I might have prefered several chapters devoted to it like a Gaiden.

but thats just me and folks tell me I aiint right.
about when they fought ichigo, many have claimed that it was just his hollow side which is undoubtedly strong but it is nowhere near the power that he has when the hollow is in control of the body....it was just a hollow with no mind if you would.

radical3113
December 18, 2007, 01:22 PM
hollow over body body over hollow dont really matter does it? i agree with ChickenFajita the vizards are much stronger than any capt and if a capt does own one of them then its a serious plothole.

TheChosenOne
December 18, 2007, 01:36 PM
@radical3113

Why did you go back to ur old sig, that Urahara one was better. I also agree that some Vaizards are stronger than some captains. I doubt any Vaizard is more powerful than Yamma or Aizen. Shinji seems the most capable of challenging them both for the top spot. :)

hollowdemon
December 18, 2007, 04:08 PM
well at this point all we know that are the vaizards seems to be more stronger than any of the SS captains but we cant say for sure since an SS captain is NOT like any other ordinary shinigamis and we cant just say for sure that the vaizards will pwn any and/or all captains. To be a captain it takes more than just ordinary reiatsu, bankai, shikai and etc.
Although it will be one hell of a fight if they do end up facing off but i doubt seeing that happening.

Good to know this whole hitsugaya side story and a more "younger" looking matsumoto but i cant wait for us to get back on track with the las noches battles :D

Hollow Kurono
December 18, 2007, 04:08 PM
@radical3113

Why did you go back to ur old sig, that Urahara one was better. I also agree that some Vaizards are stronger than some captains. I doubt any Vaizard is more powerful than Yamma or Aizen. Shinji seems the most capable of challenging them both for the top spot. :)

Man dont u have something against Vizards or something??Vizards are stronger then the shinigami captains,well not all of them but mostly agaisnt everyone,remeber when the vizards were holding the balistic Ichigo?Do u think Byakuya would hold him,i dont.And still i think that theres some stage 2 or something,like shikai and bankai to vizards,if u know what i mean and what is Shinjis problem??U want to tell me he doesnt know how to use shikai or bankai??

Yeah Radical u better change ur sig,the one was way better.

hollowdemon
December 18, 2007, 04:17 PM
Just because one is able to control the hollow mask it doesnt automatically puts them in a spot that they are able to defeat the SS captains. Its more like they have an advantage but not a guarantee that they would defeat them. Nothing against the vaizards or bandwagoning the SS captains but id like to give them both an equal opportunity to prove which one is stronger than the other since we havent fully known what both sides have to learn and obtain from training or levels that they havent acquired yet.

Wire
December 18, 2007, 10:01 PM
The limit of power is different for each individual spirit. Hollowization is no gauruntee of captain level power.

TheChosenOne
December 19, 2007, 12:54 AM
Man dont u have something against Vizards or something??Vizards are stronger then the shinigami captains,well not all of them but mostly agaisnt everyone,remeber when the vizards were holding the balistic Ichigo?Do u think Byakuya would hold him,i dont.And still i think that theres some stage 2 or something,like shikai and bankai to vizards,if u know what i mean and what is Shinjis problem??U want to tell me he doesnt know how to use shikai or bankai??

Yeah Radical u better change ur sig,the one was way better.

That's why I said that vaizard are stronger than some captains. Yamma, shun and uki are stronger, I think so. I think the vaizards are stronger than the rest of the captains with the exception of unohana, she is still unaccounted for. :)

Captain Obvious
December 19, 2007, 05:51 AM
I doubt the vizards could defeat all the SS captains. I mean Aizen was a Captain and they(vizards) are trying to raise an army to kick his ass.

And the mask... I it made him a little stronger but I think the purpose was to lift the limits he had as a shinigami.

Why can't Ichigo where normal clothes like the vizards? It would be awesome if Ichigo did a Cero, and everyone would be like "What the Fuck?"

hollowdemon
December 19, 2007, 09:36 AM
well thats still a part that ichigo have yet to acquired from his hollow mask form. Shinji knew that he was going to make a fool out of himself by leaving to hueco mundo in an unfinished training level state which could only means that theres much more for ichigo to learn during that form :)
it was awesome to see shinji blast out a cero to grimmjow and he didnt even expect it either but he did avoid it by blocking it with his own :p

can u guys imagine hitsugaya in hollow mask form ? his mask would be like a dragon hollow mask of some sort :D

Solid Slap
December 19, 2007, 09:45 AM
All this talk of limits kind of irks me. Aizen hit his "limit", in my eyes he just gave up because going any further was too hard for him. I don't want to think that certain things (like a full power level 90 Hado) in Bleach are impossible because of "limits" and these "limits" have already been established by shinigami Aizen, and the only way to get stronger than that would be to don a stupid Hollow mask therefore rendering the SS captains useless when it comes time to fight the stronger enemies like a potential Vastrolorde Arrancar. The SS captains are some of the most, if not the most compelling and well-designed characters in Bleach. It would be a shame for them to be regulated to clean-up duty for Vaizards all because they couldn't go "Super Saiyan".

Sorry for the mini-rant, but jeeze-us the idea of an absolute limit for characters bugs me to no end. I suppose the limits would be different, but in that case Aizen should have never had much potential in the first place. With everyone else, the sky should be the limit. I'm not saying they shoud be able to snap their fingers and drop a nuke, but things within the realm of possibility in Bleach (flash steps, hado, sword skill, etc) should not have a pre-imposed limit. It really takes the fun out of seeing where these characters can go.

Hollow Kurono
December 19, 2007, 11:13 AM
well thats still a part that ichigo have yet to acquired from his hollow mask form. Shinji knew that he was going to make a fool out of himself by leaving to hueco mundo in an unfinished training level state which could only means that theres much more for ichigo to learn during that form :)
it was awesome to see shinji blast out a cero to grimmjow and he didnt even expect it either but he did avoid it by blocking it with his own :p

can u guys imagine hitsugaya in hollow mask form ? his mask would be like a dragon hollow mask of some sort :D

Yeah but in da battle against Grimmjaw something happened to Ichigo and his mask and he fought longer then 11 seconds and seemed he was good to go.

Well the mask would probably be something of dragon but not a complete dragon,but ur right its probably going to be a dragon.But he wouldnt get that.

hollowdemon
December 19, 2007, 11:46 AM
it would be funny if we can come up with what a hollow mask for the SS captains would look like .... i wouldnt be able to come up with mayuri's though :oh

no offense to any of you guys, but that one side story seemed a little bit pointless to just bring in out of the blue when we have an exciting las noches battles thats going on right now. Dont get me wrong hitsugaya is awesome but i prefer that whole side story to come on maybe after the whole hueco mundo arc. :D

TheChosenOne
December 19, 2007, 01:08 PM
Yeah but in da battle against Grimmjaw something happened to Ichigo and his mask and he fought longer then 11 seconds and seemed he was good to go.

I noticed that flaw as well. In the episode he has his mask on for a total 47 seconds, that's four times the limit he had. It could have been anime just trying to drag the 11 seconds, so they could fit the conversation. :)

hollowdemon
December 19, 2007, 02:57 PM
well im guessing during the anime the conversation didnt count in the 11 seconds that he was suppose to be able to hold the hollow mask duration :p

after this whole side story chapter that hitsugaya received is this the ONLY side story we're going to get ? cuz if it is that seems kinda .... lame even IF its dedicated to the movie. There should be more to it than just his whole boobs encounter bounce-off with matsumoto and his discovery of his ice dragon from his dream :D

TheChosenOne
December 19, 2007, 03:01 PM
Well now we know how he became so powerful (at the moment). I did not know that Hitsu had a grandma, at least he had a family. :)

hollowdemon
December 19, 2007, 03:04 PM
my thought was that hitsugaya was just like how renji and rukia was in rukongai and was ended up adopted by that granny of his.
I wonder how hitsugaya ended up meeting other characters though ... that still would be an interesting story added but most likely in the gotei 13 in my thought :p

Hollow Kurono
December 19, 2007, 03:28 PM
it would be funny if we can come up with what a hollow mask for the SS captains would look like .... i wouldnt be able to come up with mayuri's though :oh

no offense to any of you guys, but that one side story seemed a little bit pointless to just bring in out of the blue when we have an exciting las noches battles thats going on right now. Dont get me wrong hitsugaya is awesome but i prefer that whole side story to come on maybe after the whole hueco mundo arc. :D

But ull say bring up to what happened when they got back or whatever they did after this arc,so i think they should finish it as soon as possible to give us 3 chapter of normal Bleach and then 1 chapter of Hitsuguya,but Kubo is realy a tease he has a movie that comes out all about Hitsuguya,were gonna see this chapter in da movie for sure and he still teases us with the fight we all want to see :notrust .


I noticed that flaw as well. In the episode he has his mask on for a total 47 seconds, that's four times the limit he had. It could have been anime just trying to drag the 11 seconds, so they could fit the conversation. :)

Man i think he has it longer then 47 seconds.Its the same as Freeza said that the Namek planet is going to be destroyed in 5 minutes when it stood still for 5+ episodes,but u know why Kubo made it that long,cause i dont think we would liked to see 11 seconds and bamm,cause Ichigo took like 3 seconds when he showed the mask,that 8 remaining then he atacked Grimmjaw,Grimmjaw blocked the atack it took like 3-4 seconds that 4 left,he did a getsuga tenshou and took his time waiting for Grimmjaw and thats 11 seconds,Ichigo realy needs to pick up his phase.But it was fun watchin it for 47 seconds.I think Ichigo fought in las noches against Grimmjaw with his mask,cause he somehow as u know heroes do,gets some kinda feelin and the mask just didnt dissapeare,but finnaly Kubo didnt give anything easy for him,like the time when he learned shikai and bankai.

Wire
December 19, 2007, 04:38 PM
All this talk of limits kind of irks me. Aizen hit his "limit", in my eyes he just gave up because going any further was too hard for him. I don't want to think that certain things (like a full power level 90 Hado) in Bleach are impossible because of "limits" and these "limits" have already been established by shinigami Aizen, and the only way to get stronger than that would be to don a stupid Hollow mask therefore rendering the SS captains useless when it comes time to fight the stronger enemies like a potential Vastrolorde Arrancar. The SS captains are some of the most, if not the most compelling and well-designed characters in Bleach. It would be a shame for them to be regulated to clean-up duty for Vaizards all because they couldn't go "Super Saiyan".

Sorry for the mini-rant, but jeeze-us the idea of an absolute limit for characters bugs me to no end. I suppose the limits would be different, but in that case Aizen should have never had much potential in the first place. With everyone else, the sky should be the limit. I'm not saying they shoud be able to snap their fingers and drop a nuke, but things within the realm of possibility in Bleach (flash steps, hado, sword skill, etc) should not have a pre-imposed limit. It really takes the fun out of seeing where these characters can go.

Its not a universal limit. Everyone has somethings that they are good and things they are bad at. Not every one who enjoys basketball can go to the NBA. It's not that Aizen couldn't do that spell because he wasn't a vaizard, it's that he himself simply did not posses the potential to do so. Crossing the Shinigami hollow boarder gives someone access to a new source of spirit pressure, which has not been stated to be limitless.

Think of Shawlong Qufang's conversation with Grimmjow. He stated that Grimmjow was prabobly the only one in their group with the potential to become a Vastro Lorde. It was also stated that Shawlong was probably only adjuucha level when he was defeated by Hitsugaya. Even as an Arrancar he still did not possess the pontential to reach Vastro Lorde level ; this was his own limit.

Solid Slap
December 19, 2007, 06:40 PM
Its not a universal limit. Everyone has somethings that they are good and things they are bad at. Not every one who enjoys basketball can go to the NBA. It's not that Aizen couldn't do that spell because he wasn't a vaizard, it's that he himself simply did not posses the potential to do so. Crossing the Shinigami hollow boarder gives someone access to a new source of spirit pressure, which has not been stated to be limitless.

Think of Shawlong Qufang's conversation with Grimmjow. He stated that Grimmjow was prabobly the only one in their group with the potential to become a Vastro Lorde. It was also stated that Shawlong was probably only adjuucha level when he was defeated by Hitsugaya. Even as an Arrancar he still did not possess the pontential to reach Vastro Lorde level ; this was his own limit.

What you are saying is basically what I suggested it should be, so I do agree with you, but people talk as if there this one limit imposed on everyone, and once they reach this limit i.e. "Aizen's limit" then they can go no further. This is used in the instance where some will say something to the effect of a Vaizard will beat a Shinigami just based on the fact that they've hit this "limit" and now they have the mask to bring them past these limits, therefore a Shinigami who has not reached this limit cannot beat a Vaizard.

I was more so ranting at hypotheticals I suppose.

AngryChubbs
December 19, 2007, 11:43 PM
well thats still a part that ichigo have yet to acquired from his hollow mask form. Shinji knew that he was going to make a fool out of himself by leaving to hueco mundo in an unfinished training level state which could only means that theres much more for ichigo to learn during that form :)
it was awesome to see shinji blast out a cero to grimmjow and he didnt even expect it either but he did avoid it by blocking it with his own :p

can u guys imagine hitsugaya in hollow mask form ? his mask would be like a dragon hollow mask of some sort :D

a dragon mask would be really cool
but about the powers....one could argue that he doesn't even know all his sword attacks yet so hollow powers could be a while away


I noticed that flaw as well. In the episode he has his mask on for a total 47 seconds, that's four times the limit he had. It could have been anime just trying to drag the 11 seconds, so they could fit the conversation. :)
its just the anime and all....AND time in bleach is more messed up than time in a black hole


What you are saying is basically what I suggested it should be, so I do agree with you, but people talk as if there this one limit imposed on everyone, and once they reach this limit i.e. "Aizen's limit" then they can go no further. This is used in the instance where some will say something to the effect of a Vaizard will beat a Shinigami just based on the fact that they've hit this "limit" and now they have the mask to bring them past these limits, therefore a Shinigami who has not reached this limit cannot beat a Vaizard.

I was more so ranting at hypotheticals I suppose.

are you suggesting that ichigo has reached him shinigami limit in a month's time? cause i highly doubt that. and aizen hasn't reached his limit either....until i see him perform a level 99 spell with no incantation perfectly...he hasn't reached his limit IMO

ttxdragon
December 20, 2007, 11:11 PM
moved several posts over to the Bleach: The DiamondDust Rebellion (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15134) thread...

please discuss the movie there ;)