Pain Mega Convo

[Decorus]

There isn't going to be a 6 tailed Narubi. If the seal gets any weaker Naruto will transform into Kyuubi and go on a 9 tailed rampage. I think someone telling Naruto he just killed his mentor and is coming for him will send Naruto into a blind rage the likes of which we won't see ever again.

[MegaX]

There isn't going to be a 6 tailed Narubi. If the seal gets any weaker Naruto will transform into Kyuubi and go on a 9 tailed rampage. I think someone telling Naruto he just killed his mentor and is coming for him will send Naruto into a blind rage the likes of which we won't see ever again.

4 + 1 = 9?

[Ripht]

Well usually when someone tries to change someone elses chakra like that its a genjutsu and by physically penatrating jai's body he is garranteed to do that, so maybe he was trying to catch him in a genjutsu.

[Gahh]

I'm suspecting the "Statue" to be "made of" mokuton some time already.

My guess was and is that kakuzu "stole" shodai's heart, and this was what made that statue possible. But that is not clearly stated, only maybe hintet at, when kakuzu talks about his first encounter with a konoha ninja.

About pain ... maybe sakura is the one to discover the truth ? After all sakura is going to have "interresting times" this year ;-). As kishi stated.

[Neuroff]

Shodaime beat Madara, there is no way he lost to Kakuzu.

[TheChosenOne]

I agree that Shodai beat Madara, but Kakuzu lost against a technique (FRS) never seen before. Kakuzu might have been more powerful when he fought Shodai.

[Neuroff]

Kakuzu already said that he's been getting stronger over the years by stealing stronger ninja's hearts. He's much stronger now than when he fought Shodaime. And if Kakuzu had killed Shodaime, he would have been using Mokuton and suppressing Bijuus. He could have captured every Jinchuuriki on his own.

[TheChosenOne]

Shodai could have beated Madara cuz of his Mokuton. Madara could have controlled some bijuu's, which is useless against Shodai who can control them. :)

I guess Kakuzu could have lost against Shodai, but why would he still be alive. Unless Shodai let him live, which seems unlikely. :)

[Neuroff]

It's not like Madara's power is completely based on using Bijuus, he has that ridiculously overpowered Sharingan thing. If you think Shodaime won only because he could suppress Bijuus, you're completely underestimating him. There shouldn't be any doubt that Madara has always been stronger than Kakuzu. And Madara survived their fight, so why shouldn't Kakuzu? Maybe Shodaime just didn't like killing people.

[TheChosenOne]

Well since Madara talks about the true power of Sharingan, it's plausible that his Sharingan was weaker when fighting Shodai. Could it be plausible that Madara could have met Kakuzu around the time when Shodai was alive. :)

[Neuroff]

I don't see how you could consider his Sharingan weak when he had the ability to summon Bijuus. It's more likely that Madara is weaker than he used to be, or they wouldn't have needed Akatsuki members collect bijuu when Madara could just summon them.

[TheChosenOne]

If Madara was at his strongest when he fought Shodai, then that does not leave much room for improvement now. Unless this true power of Sharingan was something he did not have when fighting Shodai. :)

[Neuroff]

Pain says that once their goals are achieved, everything will be as it should. Then Madara talks about the true power of the Sharingan, which is HIS power. Madara is trying to restore his power, which means he had it in the past.

[TheChosenOne]

Could that mean Madara may have lost it, during the summoning of the Kyuubi. It must require unimaginable power to summon something like the Kyuubi. But if he was that powerful how did Shodai lose. :)

[Neuroff]

I guess you meant to say Madara, but Shodaime had pretty monstrous power too. He made Konoha out of nothing, and he makes a huge forest out of nothing against Sandaime. The guy was Hokage for a reason.

[TheChosenOne]

Shodaime compared to Sandaime and Yondaime was considered weaker. Unless Madara is also weaker than these Hokages :)

[Neuroff]

Really wouldn't be surprised by that. If Madara were stronger than Sandaime and Yondaime, he could have just built up an army and attacked Konoha. Instead, he summons the Kyuubi, hopes it kills everyone, and runs away.

[segua]

It was said that both the Shodai and Nidai were the best ninjas so don't see how Shodai could be weaker than Sandai and Yondai.

[Rahan]

It was said that both the Shodai and Nidai were the best ninjas so don't see how Shodai could be weaker than Sandai and Yondai.

I don't remember such a statement There have been only a very few comparisions between the hokages in the manga so far :
Iruka said Sandaime was said to be the strongest of all. (but it could be because he was the only one who lasted more than a few years or because he is the current ruler and preaching the ruler's strength never hurts, especially when he looks like an old geezer now)
Jiraiya said Yondaime was the strongest ninja Konoha ever produced. (but could be "fatherly" love)

The fact Sandaime wasn't that much bothered by the first 2 but shit his pants at the idea of fighting Yondaime hints a difference of level I think. At least between Yondaime and the first 2. And there is the good old theme "new generations are stronger" going on ...

[segua]

Well I don't quite believe in that "new generation > old generation" ideal 100%.

Sandaime also held many different titles as indicated by Oro such as Professor and God of Shinobi or something.

Ah yea, it was that Anbu in white who was standing by during the Oro v Sandiame match during the Chuunin exam. It's clear that each one could also be the strongest for their respective generation.

[Rahan]

Well I don't quite believe in that "new generation > old generation" ideal 100%.

Sandaime also held many different titles as indicated by Oro such as Professor and God of Shinobi or something.

Ah yea, it was that Anbu in white who was standing by during the Oro v Sandiame match during the Chuunin exam. It's clear that each one could also be the strongest for their respective generation.

The ANBU in white didn't say much in the manga. Just that they were the strongest (of their time I assume). The part with "Nidaime being the one with the strongest combat ability" and stuff is anime filler I think.

[segua]

Yea, that's what the Anbu in white practically said that the Shodaime and Nidaime were the best ninjas and continued on that they also founded Konoha or so.

Someone said that in the Databook, the Nidaime was pretty proud of his taijutsu. Meaning that his taijutsu must've been top notch and maxed out in Nidaime's strength chart.

Well, I think that the Sandaime knew that taking on both the 1st and 2nd were going to be tough and it was. It was very troublesome. But I think that because the 1st and 2nd were to direct teachers of the 3rd, I think that the 3rd knew how capable the 1st and the 2nd were. Not only that but Oro was controlling them so the 3rd probably knew how capable Oro would be in controlling the 1st and 2nd.

Now I dunno what the outcome would be if the 1st and 2nd were actually fighting the 3rd themselves instead of being controlled by someone else. In this case, the 3rd might've lost and lost badly.

But to think of Shodai as being weak when the Shodai fought and defeated the strongest Uchiha member, Madara, would not be logical.

[Franckie]

Could that mean Madara may have lost it, during the summoning of the Kyuubi.

I'd say Madara lost the Sharingan's "true power" when Minato hijacked Kyuubi and sealed it into his own son. Controlling the Kyuubi's power is likely what Madara was referring to.


It must require unimaginable power to summon something like the Kyuubi. But if he was that powerful how did Shodai lose. :)

Shodai could bend the power of bijuu to his will with Mokuton Ninjutsu, that's why Shodai became Konoha's first Hogake. If Madara were to attempt to use Kyuubi against Shodai, he would bind it with Mokuton Ninjutsu and reverse that power against Madara.

[Gahh]

Neuroff: since shodaime defeated madara, he can't possibly be defeated by kakuzu is an argument that is bogus. At least in Naruto.
Please Remember, this is not DBZ nor Bleach and not even One Piece.

How ? i cant tell you. Of course if at all. As long kishi doesn't tell this story, we don't know anything.

[Neuroff]

Neuroff: since shodaime defeated madara, he can't possibly be defeated by kakuzu is an argument that is bogus. At least in Naruto.
Please Remember, this is not DBZ nor Bleach and not even One Piece.

How ? i cant tell you. Of course if at all. As long kishi doesn't tell this story, we don't know anything.
That's like saying Konohamaru might be able to kill Pain even though Jiraiya couldn't. There are still different levels of power. Otherwise Hokages wouldn't be considered the strongest ninja in Konoha, and Sandaime Kazekage wouldn't have been called the strongest ninja in the Sand's history.

[segua]

That's kinda like an understatement Neuroff. Saying that Konohamaru might not be able to. I think Konohamaru has some great potential. More so than his uncle Asuma. I think Konohamaru will became as strong as his grandfather or even stronger albeit being more perverted lol. So I think that eventually, Konohamaru might be able to kill Pein if he was givens Jiraiya's knowledge of who Pein is.

[TheChosenOne]

I think any capable person can kill Pain if they know his secret. As for the kakuzu against Shodai. Since Kakuzu said that he takes the heart from the shinobi's he faught, if he killed shodai then that would mean he had shodai's heart plus be able to use Mokuton. He was only able to utilize the five elements. :)

[Gahh]

That's like saying Konohamaru might be able to kill Pain even though Jiraiya couldn't. There are still different levels of power. Otherwise Hokages wouldn't be considered the strongest ninja in Konoha, and Sandaime Kazekage wouldn't have been called the strongest ninja in the Sand's history.

Ahh come on people. Here neuroff reveals himself as a troll.
Comparing kakuzu with konohamaru ...
Konoha had quite a team outside and it took naruto (the hero in this manga) quite a jutsu to take that guy down. And don't forget that kakuzu was in the front line to take the two tails, and that fire temple guy down.
Jirayia failed to take down pain because some ominous secret, what about shodaime had some secret too we don't know about ? If kakuzu's goal was to take shodaimes heart, he certainly prepared himself. I guess it was still no easy battle for him though.

[Neuroff]

I made an exaggeration, and I am now a troll? That's great. What happened to there being no power levels in Naruto?

Did you completely miss how Kakuzu states that he's been getting stronger over the years by stealing hearts from stronger ninjas? The Kakuzu from that time is MUCH WEAKER than the current Kakuzu.

Yeah, Shodaime had a secret. Just like Pain, he kept himself so far in the shadows that people didn't even know if he even really existed. He wasn't really Hokage, that was a genjutsu.

[Gahh]

I made an exaggeration, and I am now a troll?

If it were just one exaggeration, i wouldn't mind. But with you it's hard to find a sentence that is not an exageration, or an intentional misquoting or a mockery.

That's great. What happened to there being no power levels in Naruto?
I've never said anything about no power levels. I just said it's not bleach nor DBZ nor One Piece ... here you reveal yourself AGAIN as a troll.

Did you completely miss how Kakuzu states that he's been getting stronger over the years by stealing hearts from stronger ninjas? The Kakuzu from that time is MUCH WEAKER than the current Kakuzu.

We can't say MUCH weaker. And it is not only focused on his strenght, which was if you reread those chapter absolutely INSANE, he executed "super power" jutsus one after another, and that is still not his major ability. With mokuton you may be able to trap and controll bijuu, but what about kakuzus body ? We don't know.

Yeah, Shodaime had a secret. Just like Pain, he kept himself so far in the shadows that people didn't even know if he even really existed. He wasn't really Hokage, that was a genjutsu.
Well most likely not like pain, and we are still not sure wether we know pains secret.

Mhh You are quite an educated troll indeed.
"much weaker": exaggeration
"power levels" : intentionall misquoting.
"Yeah, Shodaime had a secret. Just like Pain": mockery.

I guess that's my last post to answer you.

[Neuroff]

I've never said anything about no power levels. I just said it's not bleach nor DBZ nor One Piece ... here you reveal yourself AGAIN as a troll.
Everyone saying that always talks about how Naruto isn't about power level, or reiatsu, etc. I use different wording, and now it's trolling?

It's funny that you actually bring up One Piece, where there actually are powers that clearly beat or tie another. Ace is probably stronger than Smoker, but no matter the power difference, they will tie because they can't damage each other. Ace is probably weaker than Aokiji, but he likely could beat him because he is Fire and Aokiji is Ice. Luffy was very likely weaker than Enel, but he beat him because rubber is unaffected by lightning.


We can't say MUCH weaker. And it is not only focused on his strenght, which was if you reread those chapter absolutely INSANE, he executed "super power" jutsus one after another, and that is still not his major ability. With mokuton you may be able to trap and controll bijuu, but what about kakuzus body ? We don't know.
Guess what Kakuzu's strength comes from? The ninjas' hearts that he has taken. The Kakuzu from Shodaime's time pretty obviously did not have his heart technique as honed as it is now.

And you are also assuming Madara's only power is to summon bijuu. He has that thing called a Sharingan, it's only one of the most powerful abilities in the Naruto world.


Well most likely not like pain, and we are still not sure wether we know pains secret.
Actually, there is no question that we don't know his secret.

[badluckartist]

Konan has piercings, but she doesn't have the characteristic rinnegan eyes all of those summons and bodies have, which leads me to believe she isnt being controlled. Also, she talks. Which the Pain controlled bodies don't seem to do much of- or rather- they don't have conversations with each other, like Pain and Konan have.

The mystery metal probably does have something to do with Pain taking over bodies, as seen when the eyes appear in the background. It's probably the medium used to sustain control, rather than initiate it though- which is what causes the extreme chakra disturbance in pierced targets that aren't part of the rinnegan parade of Pains.

[Cyven]

4 + 1 = 9?
1, 2, skip a few, 9 =)

[Decorus]

Lets count it 1 2 3 4 9.

"But Kyuubi you skipped a few tails."
"Shut up I'm going to kill Pein and well the rest of the world..."

[Decorus]

If Neuroff is a troll then what am I?

Sharingan are nice, but so far I'm liking Madara's phase ability a lot more, but then again I think Sharingan are fairly gimpy as they are currently used.

Naruto sadly has power levels its a fairly simple scale:

There is Naruto at the top.
Then there are a whole lot of people below him.

Naruto also has skill levels:
There are a ton of people above Naruto in terms of skill, but none so far have that impressive level of just sheer power.

I've very seldom seen a wow jutsu that impressed me more then Naruto's FRS...

Deidara had two the C-4 and his suicide nuke both were extremely impressive.
Sasori had his puppet army.
Madara has his Phase ability.
Tsunade had her super strength and I can't die jutsu.

Pretty much everything else is in the Meh category.

[darkflame350]

jiraiyas ultimate rasengan was pretty wow in my opinion ^_^

[Decorus]

Naw Big giant Rasengan been there seen that....

The Singing Frog Genjutsu was sweet, but not impressive....

[Alexis]

Right now I place a few abilities above Naruto's. Kakashi's dimensional MS technique for starters. While Naruto's is more powerful, Kakashi's is not a forbidden/incomplete jutsu. Naruto's jutsu poisons his own arm whenever he uses it, and it is something that even Tsunade can't fix.
Self destructing techniques have a tendency to be powerful. But at a great cost. If Naruto's FRS wasn't causing him self inflicted and permanent damage then I would have rated it above all the other jutsu so far. At least in terms of power. But Kakashi's is long range and it's not a one-shot-hit-or-miss either, but a constant whirlpool that tries to suck in the target even if it happens to miss as long as Kakashi can sustain it.

We also have Jiraya's genjutsu that allowed him to kill three of Pain's bodies with ease. I thought that was quite impressive.
Madara's mirrage technique as well of course, whatever it is. And fighting Gaara in the desert is quite something.

[Decorus]

Kakashi's MS is both strong and weak just like every other MS ability.

It does nowhere near the amount of area effect damage while at the same time is just as difficult to hit a target with. All it is guaranteed to do is maybe take out a single target while at the same time seriously reducing Kakashi's remaining chakra and leaving him physically fatigued. It also does permanent damage if over used.... It also has a 3 shot limitation. I'm guessing 2 shots of it would prevent him from having an extended hospital vacation.

Not really all that impressive.

Jiraiya does not have a genjutsu, Ma and Pa have a Genjutsu. This hits the triple whammy of limitations.

1. Have to summon 2 frogs for them to perform it.
2. Its limited to hearing as its a sound based Genjutsu.
3. It has an extremely limited duration based on how long the 2 frogs can keep singing.
4. Like many other Genjutsu a skilled Ninja can cancel it themselves...


Genjutsu are exceptionally cool, but not impressive.
Once again cool, but not impressive.


Gaara impressed me, but sadly Gaara is no longer in the picture. He also became a shining example for a Kaze Kage when he let Deidara win to save the Sand Village. Before he would have used his last bit of strength to annihilate Deidara and let the entire Village be buried under his sand.


FRS is Impressive because while it has serious limitations they can all be overcome with proper planning. FRS isn't a point and shoot insta kill its something that requires you to work at deploying. Once properly used even if the opponent manages to survive by some miracle they will never be a ninja again. Its also unfinished until Naruto comes up with a better delivery system.

[Alexis]

It does nowhere near the amount of area effect damage
Well it affects a greater area before it hits. Naruto's jutsu area is limited to the size of a sphere before it hits. And he has to run up to the target and smash the sphere into them. Kakashi's sucks them in like a whilrpool even if it initially misses.


while at the same time is just as difficult to hit a target with.
I doubt that. Naruto has to run up and hit the enemy at point blank range. Not everyone moves as fast as Deidara with his flying chocobo in the air and can dive behind trees and such for cover if it gets too close.


All it is guaranteed to do is maybe take out a single target while at the same time seriously reducing Kakashi's remaining chakra and leaving him physically fatigued.
In the regard of being fatigued, they seem similar as Naruto also seemed pretty fatigued afterwards. But about the area effect, Naruto still needs to hit one target with it to cause the effect. And while he does it's likely anyone nearby has a bigger chance of avoiding the reaction than the one being hit by the jutsu.
And if it doesn't hit he might put himself in a very dangerous situation, while as for Kakashi's jutsu even if it misses the enemy still has to struggle to escape. For Naruto they can just retaliate right away.


It also does permanent damage if over used....
That's just speculation. Let's not even get into that becaus it's pointless to try to determine that at this point. We know for sure that Naruto's jutsu hurts his arm though to the point where he won't even be able to create jutsu any more.
However, Kakashi's definitely sends him to the hospital if overused.


4. Like many other Genjutsu a skilled Ninja can cancel it themselves...
Yeah I'm sure Pain isn't a skilled ninja...


FRS is Impressive because while it has serious limitations they can all be overcome with proper planning.
I think the same can be said for almost any close range attack. The trick is to get it to hit.
Anyway, Naruto is good for those type of attacks.

[Decorus]

You might want to review the Manga, Kakashi was wide open for counter attacks he kinda has both eyes closed and is in a great deal of pain each time he uses MS.

Kakashi's MS attacks have an extremely limited radius pin point or did you miss that and they don't suck anything in? Evidently you don't grasp the concept of how Naruto does not have to directly hit his target with the Sphere in order to inflict massive damage to the target. You may want to look at the crater it leaves behind....

Kishimoto just likes the dramatic effect of Naruto hitting the target dead on which means in the manga anytime Naruto uses it and is meant to hit he will.

Kakashi on the other hand can't seem to properly hit targets with it yet unless they are stationary and has a miniscule area of effect. If it had a large radius then he would have taken out Deidara completely instead of just destroying a small section of his arm.

MS powers are nice and flashy but useless for actual combat.

[Alexis]

You might want to review the Manga, Kakashi was wide open for counter attacks he kinda has both eyes closed and is in a great deal of pain each time he uses MS.
I was talking about right after the attack is made. Naruto's needs to hit and it also gets canceled out if it doesn't. Kakashi can keep his jutsu affectting the area for a while even if it doesn't hit the target. If Kakashi misses, they still need to try to escape getting sucked in along with the surrounding space, and he follows them with it. If Naruto misses, his jutsu cancels out and they can counter attack right away. At least Kakashi can put himself in a safe distance from the target before his ends.


Kakashi's MS attacks have an extremely limited radius pin point or did you miss that and they don't suck anything in?
It's effect does not have an extremely limited radius.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6763/asasasir6.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5117/gdgdgs2.jpg

His arm and the space arround it. The surrounding space was drawn into the barrier. Kakashi said that he needed to control the size and location of the barrier limiting the area. Not that it had an extremely limited radius. The area affected was extending further than just Deidara's arm. While only the barrier does the damage (if you can even call that damage. It goes beyond damage), the surrounding space affected by it is what's in danger since that's what is gettting drawn into the barrier.
For example, Deidara's self destruct explosion was probably 100 - 1000 times the size of Kakashi's barrier, but he made sure all of it was sucked into the barrier.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9423/dfsdsffdcd0.jpg


Evidently you don't grasp the concept of how Naruto does not have to directly hit his target with the Sphere in order to inflict massive damage to the target. You may want to look at the crater it leaves behind....
I do, so you missunderstood my post. I said he must first hit a target to create the effect. And someone not hit by it has an easier time escaping the effect than someone who gets hit, and who's body the jutsu first strikes at point blank range and starts cutting.

Basically, it's easier to avoid the radius of Deidara's explosions if you dont actually get hit with one of the explosives.


Kakashi on the other hand can't seem to properly hit targets with it yet unless they are stationary and has a miniscule area of effect. If it had a large radius then he would have taken out Deidara completely instead of just destroying a small section of his arm.
There's a difference between flying arround in the air at high speeds on his flying chocobo and being on foot on the ground. Deidara pulled away with the help of his flying bird. He wasn't able to pull his own arm out of there though.


MS powers are nice and flashy but useless for actual combat.
Lol, right. You overhyping Naruto is always funny. Stronger than Orochimaru (Hokage level) stronger than Sasuke. But MS useless for combat?

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/2849/dsfdfsdsfoq1.jpg

Kakashi's assessment was that Kakuzu would have been defeated if he used his Mangekyou Sharingan. That was his last resort though, because he didn't know if Shikamaru had taken care of Hidan or not.

By the way, what does this have to do with Pain? I'm not sure, since I only read the last few posts. Anyway, I think Pain is someone who can control that black material that composes his piercings and possibly the rods he used to stab Jiraya.

[patedecarne]

first thing, it's necessary to kill Heaven's Pain, the Pain who inherits the power of heaven and could bring back the dead, but only kill won't finish the things, because this Pain could revive himself, then a seal jutsu is the most apropriate skill for this Pain, and then it's necessary to kill the others 5 Pains(yes, 5, because a replacement will appear for the fuuma Pain), because now, once a Pain is Dead , he cannot return

[Decorus]

First Naruto's does not get canceled if it misses it has a time limit Naruto has X amount of seconds to hold FRS together without using 2 Kage Bunshin. It also does not detonate on impact, Naruto actually decides when Rasengan goes off. He could keep FRS as a shuriken and slice right through an object. If he misses and the time limit is up then it fizzles out, but he can miss an infinite amount of times in the span of the time he maintains the jutsu without it ending.

His arm and the space around it? Look again you might notice not much of Deidara's arm was taken with it and not much space either. Kakashi states he missed, not that Deidara dodged it, but he did not have enough control over the location to accurately place the attack. Deidara did not dodge it Kakashi missed, because he can't aim it properly.


Kakashi states he would have used MS, not that he would have won, but rather he would have been forced to use MS.

Yes MS is useless for combat. Any time your jutsu if it doesn't work leaves you severely diminished in chakra, physical capability and requires you to run like a little bitch means its useless in combat.

FRS doesn't work no harm no foul you just lost some chakra. MS fails and you might as well run, because the battle is essentially over for you.

[Alexis]

First Naruto's does not get canceled if it misses it has a time limit Naruto has X amount of seconds to hold FRS together without using 2 Kage Bunshin.
Yeah I meant if he misses and time runs out of course. Its not like missing is an actual affect. lol
The point was though that Kakashi's works even if it doesn't hit the target because it can suck it in. Naruto's misses and cancels out because he doesn't have much time for screwups.


It also does not detonate on impact, Naruto actually decides when Rasengan goes off.
Source? Where do you get this idea from?

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7707/ryrryfc4.jpg

If he could detonate it, and that the area affect is so advantagous as you described it, then why did he wait until his FRS made contact with Kakuzu? Both the first and second time.
Why risk getting hit by his attacks and moving in so close if he doesn't need to smash it into a target first?

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7835/fhdhdfhfduq9.jpg
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1225/htrhrtrhtaw9.jpg
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4991/dsdfsfdsfe1lo9.jpg

He smashed it right into Kakuzu and didn't detonate it when we was right behind him. Instead Naruto kept going until it was smashed straight into Kakuzu's body.


http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/53/rryyrryuh5.jpg

Naruto also specifically said "if it hits it's so cool!"
Meaning it isn't cool unless it hits.
So I don't see where you got that idea from.


He could keep FRS as a shuriken and slice right through an object. If he misses and the time limit is up then it fizzles out, but he can miss an infinite amount of times in the span of the time he maintains the jutsu without it ending.
And where did you get this idea from?


His arm and the space around it? Look again you might notice not much of Deidara's arm was taken with it and not much space either. Kakashi states he missed, not that Deidara dodged it, but he did not have enough control over the location to accurately place the attack. Deidara did not dodge it Kakashi missed, because he can't aim it properly.
Yeah his arm and the space arround it. Like Deidara said. That doesn't mean that the area it affects will all vanish into the barrier. If it does then Kakashi might have risked dragging far more than just Deidara into it. But the area it affects is what Kakashi is able to draw into the barrier. Kakashi just happened to miss the first time and it ended with only Deidara's arm being sucked in. The range of the space which it affects is very important. It's the reason why Kakashi was able to send something as huge as Deidara's self destruct explosion into something as tiny as the barrier. Deidara was unable to pull out his arm and himself from it. Instead Kakashi missed and it only sucked in part of his arm.

And Deidara dodged the second attack from Kakashi thanks to his flying chocobo which quickly pulled away towards some trees. But as he pulled away from it, Naruto was there to finish him off. Unclear if Kakashi was going to keep aiming it at him or stopped because Naruto was there. But Kakashi was down in gorge and might not have been able to see Deidara from that angle.


Kakashi states he would have used MS, not that he would have won, but rather he would have been forced to use MS.
He stated that he would have won. Read the last thing he said in that picture again.
He said that if he had used it, then "right about this time I would be like how you imagined, sleeping in bed." How would he be in bed resting if he didn't win? He would have been dead.


Yes MS is useless for combat. Any time your jutsu if it doesn't work leaves you severely diminished in chakra, physical capability and requires you to run like a little bitch means its useless in combat.
So Itachi got Mangekyou Sharingan because it's useless for combat? What is he going to use it for? Use Amaterasu to bake cookies maybe?
Kakshi used his MS two times before he got tired. Still healthy enough to move fast enough to put a seal on the kyuubi though. And he could still use it a third time. MS three times is overkill for pretty much any enemy. That's hardly useless. Shinobi are supposed supposed to go out in teams anyway. If one gets tired the others cover for them. But wearing the other side down with the MS is far from useless. It ripped off Deidara's arm.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7646/grdgrdggrub4.jpg

And funny you should mention "having to run". Better than dying. lol


FRS doesn't work no harm no foul you just lost some chakra. MS fails and you might as well run, because the battle is essentially over for you.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9209/fefesfsdrs7.jpg
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/488/jyyjjyjq8.jpg

No harm no foul? Looks to me like he almost got killed because he missed it the first time, if Kakashi and Yamato hadn't saved his life.
And it looks like he couldn't even walk and move by himself after his third use. At least Itachi could still run, even if he couldn't sustain his sharingan any more.
But a jutsu that can only be used a few times before it damages your arm to the point where you can no longer use jutsu is hardly very useful either.

[Marvstar]

Jutsus like that will only have place in "last resort" situations, but you never know, maybe at the end of the series, such Jutsus will have a fundamental role in winning/losing the final battles..

[kuroi-san]

well... it seems to be pointless now. cuz jiraiya's definitely gone. i hope. it would really suck if he came back as an enemy though... ugh. although naruto vs jiraiya would be kinda neat... i'd just feel bad. jiraiya was such a good character.

but, he still has those things through him. maybe pain will steal the body or retrieve it somehow. potential future plot device? who knows.

[kaylee]

By the way, what does this have to do with Pain?

Indeed. Pain has been mentioned very few times in the last few pages of posts. :s

Anyway, good posts about the FRS, but they might be better off here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4744). :amuse

[Alexis]

Anyway, good posts about the FRS, but they might be better off here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4744). :amuse
Right. Not sure why it got into the subject of other people's jutsus. But about Pain's identity, I always thought him to be Yahiko even before he arrived to fight Jiraya. But with the revalation of all the other bodies, giving them a personal face, the possibility of it being someone else went up. Although there's still the "teacher" thing pointing to his students, but it could be a bit more complicated than just one person. A collective of several perhaps.
But I have a feeling the key to his identity might be in the piercings. Whoever had that ability might be Pain.

[Jehuty]

Sharingan are nice, but so far I'm liking Madara's phase ability a lot more, but then again I think Sharingan are fairly gimpy as they are currently used.


Uh, what? The Sharingan ain't good enough for you?

Let's review:

Ability to cast incredibly effective genjutsu that cannot be canceled out by even the largest outpouring of chakra

Constant clarity so that taijutsu is ineffective, so much so that zero-tailed Naruto could not land a hit on Sasuke after the third tomoe appeared by giving him some kind of Spider-Sense. In that vein, seal-speed is irrelevant as well. Only the most extreme amount of cuts can outmatch the Sharingan, such as the Rasenshuriken, and that is an S-class jutsu

Ability to see the colors of chakra so that a ninja with a wide variety of jutsu (ala Kakashi) can easily use elemental superiority or see elemental objects through solid surfaces (Deidara's bombs).

The ability to copy near all genjutsu and ninjutsu, allowing even greater ease in finding elemental superiority as the ninja can find such a huge gallery of jutsu.

The ability to not exactly copy but easily understand taijutsu styles and replicate at least a very firm variant (Rock Lee Taijutsu).

And let's not forget Mangekyou Sharingan, which, as far as we know, has the power to escape a supposedly unbreakable prison with fire hotter than the sun, transport a section of space away via dimensional warp, and let's not forget giving the enemy an incredible mindrape that will put them into a state of mental collapse (or kill them if they lack the Sharingan) in about a second.

So... where is the Sharingan gimpy?

Kakashi's an excellent Ninja on his own, what with being the son of the White Fang, a man as great as the legendary three in his prime, but what really puts him in line for the position of Hokage is his Sharingan-related abilities. Actually, I'm quite surprised that an Uchiha hasn't been Hokage yet. Is it just a policy, or were Nidaime, Sandaime, and Yondaime really that damned strong?

EDIT: Whoops. Thiiiis is likely the wrong thread for this.

[Decorus]

Well for starters

Sharingan can't copy jutsu.
Sharingan being able to see chakra is irrelevant.
Taijutsu is not ineffective against a sharingan user.
Sharingan also does not create Genjutsu that can't be canceled.

I still don't know why there are people out there who still believe this kind of garbage.


A sharingan user and a perfectly ordinary person who pays attention can learn a jutsu equally well just by seeing another person use it.

The color of chakra gives you no insight into the elemental nature of the jutsu. Sasuke figured out what kind of element Deidara's bombs were by noticing he used earth signs while creating his bombs. Deidara did a poor job of concealing it. Also anyone can determine the strengths and weaknesses of a technique by observing it used. Just like Haku figured out how to completely negate the effectiveness of sharingan just by seeing Kakashi use it.

A cool character with Byakugan can learn jutsu just as well if not better then someone with Sharingan. X-ray vision +360 degree vision means you can see the jutsu and hand signs for them even if they were creating thier jutsu 150 yards away behind a tree while they have thier back to them.

While it looks like sharingan's ability to detect muscle tension is really effective against taijutsu its not. It requires them to be able to see the entire body of thier opponent. Its easily negated if they can't see the person who is attacking them. Also against certain opponents it just won't work at all.


MS abilities are really flashy, but useless for combat purposes.

The best use of MS is either interrogation ie Grasping Moon or Assasination ie Kakashi's or possibly Amaterasu, but since we have never actually seen it used its usefulness as a ranged attack is questionable.

A genjutsu from a sharingan is the same as any other jutsu a ninja with enough skill can cancel it out. Deidara did that easily, by specificly training one of his eyes to negate sharingan genjutsu. Jiraiya obviously has his own method that he can use.

[Jehuty]

Well for starters

Sharingan can't copy jutsu.What are you talking about? That's like the first and most known ability of the Sharingan, which is why Kakash is the Copy Ninja, and why he has learned over one thousand techniques.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sharingan

"The Sharingan's first and most well known ability is to memorize any technique that it witnesses. It can memorize ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu with perfect accuracy, allowing the user to use the techniques as his own. In order to reproduce copied jutsu, however, one must have the necessary skill or ability to perform them."


Sharingan being able to see chakra is irrelevant.Nope.

Sasuke saw Deidara's mines in the ground after they were placed. That's how he could charge the katana with chidori and cancel them out.


Taijutsu is not ineffective against a sharingan user.

It's not completely useless, but it's more difficult. Nine-tailed Naruto was easily overpowering two-tomoe Sasuke, but when the third tomoe kicked in, he was easily able to read and counter each strike, forcing Naruto to go one-tail.


Sharingan also does not create Genjutsu that can't be canceled.30% Itachi uses a genjutsu a powerful genjutsu against Naruto. Naruto remembers Jiraiya telling him that a way to cancel is by pumping out chakra. Who can pump more chakra than Naruto, exactly? He needed to be held by Sakura and Chiyo to get out of it.


I still don't know why there are people out there who still believe this kind of garbage.Because I've provided specific examples to support my statements while you've done none?


A sharingan user and a perfectly ordinary person who pays attention can learn a jutsu equally well just by seeing another person use it.Nope. Outright not true. Give evidence.


The color of chakra gives you no insight into the elemental nature of the jutsu. Sasuke figured out what kind of element Deidara's bombs were by noticing he used earth signs while creating his bombs. Deidara did a poor job of concealing it. Also anyone can determine the strengths and weaknesses of a technique by observing it used. Just like Haku figured out how to completely negate the effectiveness of sharingan just by seeing Kakashi use it.There are... five normal elements. Five colors for five elements. Not that difficult.


A cool character with Byakugan can learn jutsu just as well if not better then someone with Sharingan. X-ray vision +360 degree vision means you can see the jutsu and hand signs for them even if they were creating thier jutsu 150 yards away behind a tree while they have thier back to them.Kakashi became the copy-ninja after taking Obito's eye.


While it looks like sharingan's ability to detect muscle tension is really effective against taijutsu its not. It requires them to be able to see the entire body of thier opponent. Its easily negated if they can't see the person who is attacking them. Also against certain opponents it just won't work at all.What? Remember what Chiyo said - If it's one, run, if it's two, one attacks from behind.


MS abilities are really flashy, but useless for combat purposes.

The best use of MS is either interrogation ie Grasping Moon or Assasination ie Kakashi's or possibly Amaterasu, but since we have never actually seen it used its usefulness as a ranged attack is questionable.Where are you getting this from? Kakashi fights Itachi in Konoha and Itachi easily uses Tsukiyomi to mindrape him. Kakashi tells Asuma and Kurenai both that, despite the fact that there are three of them, they need to close their eyes or die. Only Gai, because of training against Kakashi for several years, can fight while looking at the feet.


A genjutsu from a sharingan is the same as any other jutsu a ninja with enough skill can cancel it out. Deidara did that easily, by specificly training one of his eyes to negate sharingan genjutsu. Jiraiya obviously has his own method that he can use.Deidara needed to train his eye over and over and over. Most people haven't done that. Even so, he was outwitted by Sasuke's last genjutsu.

[TheChosenOne]

I also thought that pain might be yahiko after he was revealed but after seeing that they have a past with jiraiya. I think he might be a correlation of 6 people that come together to form pain. :)

[Alterno]

Well you all know that there a lot of threads around the web saying/starting like Who or What is Pain ?... My goal with this thread is not ask you who or what is Pain?..., is mostly to motivate everybody to write a full overview about what or who Pain is from their point of view and reach a conclusion. Of course opinions about this, is always welcome... :D.

We act to make his plan...

http://uploadpsd.com/file/18184.jpg

Konan tells Jiraiya about what they are doing in simple words, we act to make his plan a reality.


To protect everybody... You have to grow

http://uploadpsd.com/file/18187.jpg

Nagato is despressed because he killed someone, and have different feelings... at the same time Jiraiya tells him that he did well because he protected his friends


I just wanna keep them safe...

http://uploadpsd.com/file/18189.jpg

Nagato said it, not matter what he have to do, he wants to keep them safe...


Growing into... for his plans

http://uploadpsd.com/file/18191.jpg

Grow, Growth, Grown... Pain has grown from pain (http://uploadpsd.com/file/18193.jpg)... the pain of those who has die, the pain of losing him.


You will travel...

http://uploadpsd.com/file/18194.jpg

The book at some point got me confussed, totally confussed. But now I (think) know why the frog sage said that and Jiraiya's decision... He had two choice or run away and not getting the information for Konoha, which would lead to the extraction of the Kyuubi from Naruto and thus the destruction of the world.... or dying obtaining the information, not only about Pain's identity, but also the identity of the other shinobi he met during his travels.



...A god for his Plans

It will be the act of a god (http://uploadpsd.com/file/18197.jpg)...


...To stop all wars

http://uploadpsd.com/file/18198.jpg

Conclusion: This support Nagato being Pain and not Yahiko as you can see. The key here is Konan and Yahiko. Konan because she said We act to make his plan a reality and that was Yahiko's plan... we gotta make them suffer.. "like when they stop a fight because someone got injured"

Konan: We (Nagato and me) act to make his plans (Yahiko's plan a reality)...

So yes... Nagato is Pain and Pain is Nagato...

[Alexis]

Not sure what you mean about the book and the choice he made though. We know what his choice was, but we still don't know what significance the book has. Most people (including myself) assume that it contains information about Pain's identity and his weakness.

The problem I see with Nagato being Pain is that Jiraya has assumed it to be Nagato from the start and has gone back and forth between "it is Nagato" and "it isn't Nagato" so many times now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Hikusaak/Pain/001.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Hikusaak/Pain/002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Hikusaak/Pain/003.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v188/Hikusaak/Pain/004.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6177/005je6.jpghttp://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6123/006vf0.jpg

So after all of this, that's the big revalation we've been waiting for?
It is Nagato. No wait, it isn't! No wait.. it is! No wait, it isnt! No wait, IT IS!

I don't think that's a very exciting revalation to be honest.
But when it comes to mysteries, usually the first guess isn't the correct one, because they want to keep the element of surprise when it's finally revealed. Kind of like when Jiraya wondered why Pain would only summon, and if it was because he was taking him lightly.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4535/222dgdggdol7.jpg

Some people thought that that was the reasoon. But then where would the element of surprise be when we find out the truth?

For the same reason I don't think we're going to hear "Nagato" as the answer. Jiraya was never able to figure out who Pain was when he was focusing on Nagato, a Rinnegan user. I think the key to Pain's identity might be that black material that compose their piercings.

[Alterno]

Not sure what you mean about the book and the choice he made though. We know what his choice was, but we still don't know what significance the book has. Most people (including myself) assume that it contains information about Pain's identity and his weakness.

The sage frog clearly told him that he will travel around the world and write a book about the things he see. While I strongly agree with the first part of the comment, it clearly doesn't contain the weakness of Rinnengan or Pain, otherwise the outcome of the battle would be different. It also seems that Jiraiya don't know about the weakness of some of the shinobi he met during his life. The book has to be clearly the book which he never to publish.


http://uploadpsd.com/file/18212.jpg



The problem with Nagato being Pain is that Jiraya has assumed it to be Nagato from the start and has gone back and forth between "it is Nagato" and "it isn't Nagato" so many times now that right after all of this,

that's the big revalation we've all been waiting for is this?
It is Nagato. No wait, it isn't! No wait.. it is! No wait, it isnt! No wait, IT IS!.

Actually he have been doing it terrific, he is keeping everybody in the edge expecting, most of the people is not sure about who or what is pain.., I was the same till I read the chapter backwards from 383 till 377 and saw where Konan said we act to make his plan a reality.

The only of the three who had plan like this was Yahiko, Nagato in the other hand was worried about protecting them (Yahiko & Konan).



If that's the best Kishimoto can do with pain's identity then I'll be pretty disappointed.
But the first guess is usually not correct, just to keep the element of surprise when it's finally revealed. kind of like when Jiraya wondered why Pain would only summon, and if it was perhaps because he was taking him lightly.

Actually Jiraiya was right... Pain told him several time that he was just a normal person. But the biggest evidence of Pain taking Jiraiya lightly is..


http://uploadpsd.com/file/18214.jpg




Some people thought that that was the reasoon. So I usually asked them, if Jiraya's initial guess was correct, where would the element of surprise be when we find out the truth?.

Actually which would be the surprise if Pain ends being Yahiko? Why he has the Rinnengan?, we already know a possibility because we read Kakashi Gaiden and we know about a character with a doujutsu in one of his eyes...



For the same reason I don't think we're going to hear "Nagato" as the answer. Jiraya was never able to figure out who Pain was when he was focusing on Nagato, a Rinnegan user. That he discovering the identity of Pain's other bodies probably means something. I think Jiraya may have met someone who has an ability that would make him Pain. Perhaps it is that black material that compose their piercings.

Well I think we are going to heard about Nagato being Pain soon, I mean being confirmed. I think Pain is pretty much like Hades of Saint Seiya, he uses someone else's body while the real is safe somewhere. But I agree with you about the piercings being relevant for his technique.


Jiraiya found out who Pain is, by remembering the following:
http://uploadpsd.com/file/18215.jpg

[Jehuty]

The sage frog clearly told him that he will travel around the world and write a book about the things he see. While I strongly agree with the first part of the comment, it clearly doesn't contain the weakness of Rinnengan or Pain, otherwise the outcome of the battle would be different. It also seems that Jiraiya don't know about the weakness of some of the shinobi he met during his life. The book has to be clearly the book which he never to publish.


http://uploadpsd.com/file/18212.jpg



Actually he have been doing it terrific, he is keeping everybody in the edge expecting, most of the people is not sure about who or what is pain.., I was the same till I read the chapter backwards from 383 till 377 and saw where Konan said we act to make his plan a reality.

The only of the three who had plan like this was Yahiko, Nagato in the other hand was worried about protecting them (Yahiko & Konan).



Actually Jiraiya was right... Pain told him several time that he was just a normal person. But the biggest evidence of Pain taking Jiraiya lightly is..


http://uploadpsd.com/file/18214.jpg




Actually which would be the surprise if Pain ends being Yahiko? Why he has the Rinnengan?, we already know a possibility because we read Kakashi Gaiden and we know about a character with a doujutsu in one of his eyes...



Well I think we are going to heard about Nagato being Pain soon, I mean being confirmed. I think Pain is pretty much like Hades of Saint Seiya, he uses someone else's body while the real is safe somewhere. But I agree with you about the piercings being relevant for his technique.


Jiraiya found out who Pain is, by remembering the following:
http://uploadpsd.com/file/18215.jpg

It appears he did publish the book. I thought the significance (or part of it) of the book was that he realized that Naruto was the child of prophecy.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/382/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/382/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/382/11/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/382/17/

He wrote the book, as outlined in the prophecy, and it ended up being about a character named Naruto... and since Naruto grew up to be like the character in the book, Jiraiya figured that Naruto must be the one of whom the Toad Elder spoke.

[Alexis]

The sage frog clearly told him that he will travel around the world and write a book about the things he see. While I strongly agree with the first part of the comment, it clearly doesn't contain the weakness of Rinnengan or Pain, otherwise the outcome of the battle would be different. It also seems that Jiraiya don't know about the weakness of some of the shinobi he met during his life. The book has to be clearly the book which he never to publish.
I think it's very possible that it does contain the weakness of Pain, because before dying Jiraya said "I need to let the elder sage know who Pain is".
If Pain's identity is the last thing Jiraya leaves behind, then I think it will be the key to his downfall. And quite possibly the answer lies in the books he has written.
For example, imagine that Jiraya might has met someone with the ability to control that black material that their piercings is made of, to manipulate other bodies, or something along those lines. And Jiraya might have known of a way to disrupt that connection. Just an example.

And the outcome of the battle wouldn't have been different from the start even if the answer might have been written in the books, because Jiraya clearly didn't remember until right before he was killed. It was becauser he was only focusing on Pain being Nagato, a Rinnegan user, that he couldn't figure out who he was. When he recognised those other Shinobi, which he met during his travels and quite possibly wrote about in his books, he figured out Pain's identity.



Actually he have been doing it terrific, he is keeping everybody in the edge expecting,
If that's the case, why is it that several people, you included I believe, constantly refered to him as Nagato in many posts, if you always wondered who he was? I remembered you doing it for quite a few weeks. The truth is, a lot of people believed him to be Nagato quite early, and never questioned how much of Nagato's personality was missing, besidesd the "grown up" thing, which also Yahiko spoke of.
I think he did a terrific job at missleading people. I always refered to him as "Pain".

But yes, we don't know who Pain is. But just because we don't know who he is doesn't make a revalation of him being "Nagato" any better.
What if they suddenly make us question if Naruto is actually Naruto, and that it was a genjutsu all this time. And then everyone keeps guessing that maybe it is Naruto after all. And then it's revealed... it IS Naruto.

Imagine if you feel the shape of a Christmas present in the morning to try to find out what it is. You are guessing that it is a video game, based on it's shape. But you still don't know for sure until it's revealed. If it turns out to be what you guessed, even though you didn't know for sure, it would have been a better job by the one who packaged the gift if you were misslead into thinking it was something different. That's all I'm saying, and it being Nagato doesn't fall under that category.

I really don't think that the "It is Nagato. No wait, it isn't! No wait.. it is! No wait, it isnt! No wait, IT IS!" is a very exciting revalation.


I was the same till I read the chapter backwards from 383 till 377 and saw where Konan said we act to make his plan a reality.

Konan: We (Pain and me) act to make his plans (Pain's plan a reality)...

That would work just as well. There doesn't need to be a third party involved. She may have only spoken about herself and Pain.
In fact, if you think they only mean the plan to take revenge on the world, then this works just as well also:

Konan: We (Yahiko and me) act to make his plans (Yahiko's plan a reality)...



Actually Jiraiya was right... Pain told him several time that he was just a normal person. But the biggest evidence of Pain taking Jiraiya lightly is..
No actually his initial guess about why he only summoned was wrong.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/366/dsffdsfsdqg4.jpg

This is the conclusion he reached later. That he only summoned because he only could summon. Some people assumed that it was Jiraya's initial guess, that Pain was just feeling no need to use jutsus against him, but then there would have been no element of surprise later, or even much of a need to make it into a mystery to be revealed in the first place?


Actually which would be the surprise if Pain ends being Yahiko? Why he has the Rinnengan?, we already know a possibility because we read Kakashi Gaiden and we know about a character with a doujutsu in one of his eyes...
There are several body or eye posession techniques in this series. Either way, anything is better than it being the one he's suspecting it to be, and not to be 6 - 7 times now.
If it was Nagato, then the name he would have said almost right after he said "It can't be Nagato!" (for the 500th time) would have been "It is Nagato". That's pretty silly if you ask me.


Well I think we are going to heard about Nagato being Pain soon, I mean being confirmed.
Well I doubt that, because that would probably be the least imaginative answer possible, and this probably doesn't have as much to do with Nagato or the Rinnegan as Jiraya first thought. If anyone remembers my previosu post about how I said Pain seemed to be acting dumb or avoiding the question whenever the subject touched on Nagato/Yahiko: http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=631892&postcount=542

it seems now that I might have been right. Pain was avoiding the question. Why he had no problem telling Jiraya about his master plan, but had such a hard time answering a personal question was probably because of this:

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6730/hfdhdfhfddhfjp7.jpg

That he had a secret to protect. That's why he never contested being called Nagato, and gladly let Jiraya believe so.
All throughout the battle, Jiraya focused on Nagato and the Rinnegan, and couldn't for the life of him figure out why he would look so different. And as long as he did that, Pain's secret was safe.
Yet in the end, he did realise who Pain was. Meaning that the answer was probably not with Nagato or the Rinnegan which he had focused on all that time earlier all throughout the battle, but what he began to think about after he realised this:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6177/005je6.jpg

and after he realised that he had seen all the other bodies before. If the answer was Nagato, then he probably would have figured it out before he started focusing on those other people, and his journey.

That he goes from "It is Nagato. No wait, it isn't! No wait.. it is! No wait, it isnt! No wait, IT IS!" isn't all that exciting to me.


Jiraiya found out who Pain is, by remembering the following:
http://uploadpsd.com/file/18215.jpg
Yeah and he has been thinking about Nagato and the Rinnegan this whole time now and came up with nothing at all. If Jiraya lost simply because he is so slow that he couldn't reach a conclusion that he thought about from the moment he met Pain, then I'd be very disappointed. Most likely I think it's because he focused on the wrong thing. He thought of the Rinnegan when he should have been thinking about something else.

Since I'm more of the Yahiko possibility, here's an idea.
What if Yahiko's special ability was to use that black material? (We haven't seen Yahiko's special ability, if he even had one. We've seen Konan's and Nagato's though.) And perhaps one day while reading in Jiaraya's books about the shinobi he encountered during his travels, he suggested to test that black material on their dead bodies, but Jiraya told him not to. Just an idea, but there are a lot of possibilities.

[Decorus]

Jehuty lesson 1

Wikipedia is a horrible source for information.

Lesson 2

Sharingan can't copy jutsu, can't memorize them and definitely can't spit them immediately back at the original user.

Lesson 3
Kakashi is known as the copy Ninja, because of a trick he likes to use thats actually a low level genjutsu.

Lesson 4
Sasuke saw Rock Lee use his taijutsu he created a variation on the lotus, Naruto saw Sasuke use his variation on the lotus and created his own version of the same technique.
Wow I didn't know Naruto had sharingan.
K
Lesson 5
Show me a single jutsu anywhere in the existing manga that Sasuke copied. I can show you Kyuubi copying Orochimaru's Skin shedding jutsu. Oh wait Kyuubi isn't a sharingan user.

Lesson 6
30% Itachi clone used a finger Genjutsu not sharingan, Naruto barely failed to escape where as Kuranei was completely overwhelmed by a single counter genjutsu used by Itachi. Teenage ninja vrs Master Genjutsu user who do you think will win?

Lesson 7
Every single time we have seen Grasping Moon used it affects a single target. If Amaterasu was such a great combat jutsu why didn't he use it to kill Jiraiya rather then run away.

Lesson 8
Kakashi explained already using MS = severely draining your chakra and leaving you physically fatigued forcing you to run.


Now Back to Pein

Pein is another Minor Akatsuki player and nothing more, he may not even survive the next fight he gets into.

[Jehuty]

Jehuty lesson 1

Wikipedia is a horrible source for information.Maybe, but the databook ain't.

On Hatake Kakashi -
"Although he has many attack skills, his greatest weapon is the Sharingan which many still fear. In front of Akatsuki, Kakashi shows his great copy jutsus and proves his abilities once again."


Lesson 2

Sharingan can't copy jutsu, can't memorize them and definitely can't spit them immediately back at the original user. On Hatake Kakashi -
"Although he has many attack skills, his greatest weapon is the Sharingan which many still fear. In front of Akatsuki, Kakashi shows his great copy jutsus and proves his abilities once again."



Lesson 3
Kakashi is known as the copy Ninja, because of a trick he likes to use thats actually a low level genjutsu. On Hatake Kakashi -
"Although he has many attack skills, his greatest weapon is the Sharingan which many still fear. In front of Akatsuki, Kakashi shows his great copy jutsus and proves his abilities once again."

Because that's exactly what he'd use on S-class ninja. Low level genjutsu.


Lesson 4
Sasuke saw Rock Lee use his taijutsu he created a variation on the lotus, Naruto saw Sasuke use his variation on the lotus and created his own version of the same technique.
Wow I didn't know Naruto had sharingan.
KWrong. Sasuke observed Lee fighting as the two fought and developed the speed to penetrate Gaara's shield. However, because he hadn't trained that way up, it put a greater strain on his body.

Naruto saw Sasuke do the Lion Combo and loosely approximated his own version.


Lesson 5
Show me a single jutsu anywhere in the existing manga that Sasuke copied. I can show you Kyuubi copying Orochimaru's Skin shedding jutsu. Oh wait Kyuubi isn't a sharingan user.Perhaps Sasuke doesn't or didn't have the technical skill to use it, as is required when using the Sharingan. He's more developed in Katon and Raiton.


Lesson 6
30% Itachi clone used a finger Genjutsu not sharingan, Naruto barely failed to escape where as Kuranei was completely overwhelmed by a single counter genjutsu used by Itachi. Teenage ninja vrs Master Genjutsu user who do you think will win?Okay... either way, Itachi beat them both. This part of the post was weird.


Lesson 7
Every single time we have seen Grasping Moon used it affects a single target. If Amaterasu was such a great combat jutsu why didn't he use it to kill Jiraiya rather then run away.It affected a single target... in the space of a second. He used it while facing three people at once.

Perhaps Itachi didn't think that it would be fast enough against one of the greatest Ninja ever.


Lesson 8
Kakashi explained already using MS = severely draining your chakra and leaving you physically fatigued forcing you to run.... Okay. It's a move you want to use to end the battle. Using your logic, is Rasenshuriken a worthless move despite the fact that it took out an Akatsuki in one blow?

[kaylee]

Since I'm more of the Yahiko possibility, here's an idea.
What if Yahiko's special ability was to use that black material? (We haven't seen Yahiko's special ability, if he even had one. We've seen Konan's and Nagato's though.) And perhaps one day while reading in Jiaraya's books about the shinobi he encountered during his travels, he suggested to test that black material on their dead bodies, but Jiraya told him not to. Just an idea, but there are a lot of possibilities.

That's a cool idea, actually. I'd always assumed from the beginning that the black material must be connected to the Rinnegan (since the very first Pain we saw had both), but you're right, it could be connected to Yahiko instead. And if the black stuff does somehow give the user the ability to control dead(?) bodies and absorb their skills, it could explain how Yahiko has the Rinnegan now. Only question is, where is Nagato's body?

Hmm, you'd think Jiraiya would've been nice enough to at least give us a hint about the black stuff while he was alive though, especially if he's seen it before. Or maybe that's what the secret message refers to.

@Jehuty and Decorus -- Drop the debate, please, or take it somewhere that it's relevant to the topic. Your posts have nothing to do with Pain.

[Jehuty]

That's a cool idea, actually. I'd always assumed from the beginning that the black material must be connected to the Rinnegan (since the very first Pain we saw had both), but you're right, it could be connected to Yahiko instead. And if the black stuff does somehow give the user the ability to control dead(?) bodies and absorb their skills, it could explain how Yahiko has the Rinnegan now. Only question is, where is Nagato's body?

Hmm, you'd think Jiraiya would've been nice enough to at least give us a hint about the black stuff while he was alive though, especially if he's seen it before. Or maybe that's what the secret message refers to.

@Jehuty and Decorus -- Drop the debate, please, or take it somewhere that it's relevant to the topic. Your posts have nothing to do with Pain.
Aye aye, cap'n. Consider it dropped.

Yeah, I don't figure Nagato as Pain. It's typical Kishimoto (or manga-ka in general) to do something like that: "It's *that* Jutsu! He's going to use *that*! Your identity is-"

It'll be found out in a climactic scene, unlike the Fourth Hokage's identity.

[pblock]

THE ACTUAL IDENTITY OF PEIN IS........
EITHER YAHIKO OR NAGATO

[patedecarne]

That's a cool idea, actually. I'd always assumed from the beginning that the black material must be connected to the Rinnegan (since the very first Pain we saw had both), but you're right, it could be connected to Yahiko instead. And if the black stuff does somehow give the user the ability to control dead(?) bodies and absorb their skills, it could explain how Yahiko has the Rinnegan now. Only question is, where is Nagato's body?

Hmm, you'd think Jiraiya would've been nice enough to at least give us a hint about the black stuff while he was alive though, especially if he's seen it before. Or maybe that's what the secret message refers to.

Oh man, very good thories about Pain, and could be very plausible because Jiraya only knew who Pain was after he recognized the 6 ninjas he fought before, in the moment he saw the 6 ninjas, he said" I know who you are, Pain!" what means that the 6 ninjas were connected somehow, and maybe the black material is the key.
But still, how to explain the "entity Pain"? because the entity recognized jiraya as his former master, what means that is the same entity in the nagato body until now, the question is: why the entity took 6 bodies from ninjas that Jirayas previously fought? Something very deep here, and the most interesting is that maybe tsunade knows who pain is, because she will receive the code from Pa...

[Neuroff]

Something very deep here, and the most interesting is that maybe tsunade knows who pain is, because she will receive the code from Pa...
I don't know why people keep saying this. Jiraiya sent Pa to the Toad Sage, which means the message is going straight to Naruto.

[patedecarne]

Tsunade is Hokage, so Tsunade WILL receive the code, I don't know why people keep saying she won't receive the code...
But, Neuroff, please explain me one thing: how do you know toad sage will give the code to Naruto, assumption, I presume, right? Because in manga we don't know any evidence that toad sage will give the code to naruto...

[MegaX]

Tsunade is Hokage, so Tsunade WILL receive the code, I don't know why people keep saying she won't receive the code...
But, Neuroff, please explain me one thing: how do you know toad sage will give the code to Naruto, assumption, I presume, right? Because in manga we don't know any evidence that toad sage will give the code to naruto...

On the same token, we don't know that the Toad Sage would give the code to Tsunade.

[Jehuty]

On the same token, we don't know that the Toad Sage would give the code to Tsunade.
She may not get the code, but she'll get the information from Ma Toad.

Pain said his secret's revelation gave him the advantage against Jiraiya. With that gone... well, who knows, right?

[Neuroff]

Tsunade is Hokage, so Tsunade WILL receive the code, I don't know why people keep saying she won't receive the code...
But, Neuroff, please explain me one thing: how do you know toad sage will give the code to Naruto, assumption, I presume, right? Because in manga we don't know any evidence that toad sage will give the code to naruto...
Yeah, she'll receive the code... from NARUTO. Yeah, so Tsunade is Hokage. What does that have to do with toads? Tsunade doesn't have a contract for toad summoning, Naruto does. Who can possibly contact the toad sage? Naruto.

[Jehuty]

Yeah, she'll receive the code... from NARUTO. Yeah, so Tsunade is Hokage. What does that have to do with toads? Tsunade doesn't have a contract for toad summoning, Naruto does. Who can possibly contact the toad sage? Naruto.
Do we know if he's ever contacted the Toad Sage? We know that he got the summon through the scroll, and that he's summoned Bunta, Kichi, Tatsu, and a shitload of tadpoles. I wonder if he got any better with that over the years...

[Neuroff]

There's nothing about Naruto ever contacting the toad sage, but there is no doubt that he is the only one who can. Naruto is the only one who has a contract with the toads now.

[Jehuty]

There's nothing about Naruto ever contacting the toad sage, but there is no doubt that he is the only one who can. Naruto is the only one who has a contract with the toads now.
This is probably true. Though perhaps he won't contact the toad sage... maybe Pa will reach the toad sage and one of them will contact Naruto, if that's possible.

[Neuroff]

I don't know exactly how summoning works, but I'm assuming they can't come to the real world unless they are summoned.

[Jehuty]

I don't know exactly how summoning works, but I'm assuming they can't come to the real world unless they are summoned.
Hmm. That makes me wonder how Jiraiya got to Mount Myouboku.

[Neuroff]

I think he just traveled with a summon, like what Sasuke did with Manda.

[Jehuty]

I think he just traveled with a summon, like what Sasuke did with Manda.
That sounds plausible enough. Seemed to be quite familiar with the place. Did he have someone do the Suigetsu thing to summon him back?

[akatsuki27]

who said he needed to be summoned back?...he walked back, he said he set off to tour the world after the prophecy was handed down

i think it was discussed somewhere else in the forum that the summonings aren't necessarily from another dimension

[Jehuty]

who said he needed to be summoned back?...he walked back, he said he set off to tour the world after the prophecy was handed down

i think it was discussed somewhere else in the forum that the summonings aren't necessarily from another dimension
Gamabunta apparently needs to use chakra to stay summoned... not necessarily in a different world, but they aren't there permanently.

[Neuroff]

That sounds plausible enough. Seemed to be quite familiar with the place. Did he have someone do the Suigetsu thing to summon him back?
Now that I look at it again, I have no idea how Jiraiya would get back. It seemed like he was alone at the time.

[Jehuty]

Now that I look at it again, I have no idea how Jiraiya would get back. It seemed like he was alone at the time.
I'm sure he figured something out. But it seems there's a mountain somewhere where a bunch of frogs live. I think it's possible he could have walked there.

[Decorus]

Frog Teleportation jutsu.

[Alterno]

Well, if Jiraiya knew Pain's weakness, the outcome would be different, but I think he don't. So the book could have information about Pain's identity and the idenitity of the rest but not about rinnengan or pain's weakness. I wonder who Naruto is going to defeat... Pain or Madara... I would love to see a Madara vs Tsunade fight, but as character I think Naruto needs to fight madara. I wonder what Kishimoto is going to do...

I could be wrong... But I'll stick with Nagato being Pain as and not Yahiko... for three reasons...

Rinnengan had received a mayor boom as the stronger doujutsu... and it would be pretty lame if that an eye technique could be use like Kakashi uses Sharingan...
Second because I believe that Kishimoto is not going complicate his life explaining rinnengan and explaining how (if the case) yahiko obtained it.
For everything that Jiraiya remembered before he said "I know your true identity now"...

[Jehuty]

Well, if Jiraiya knew Pain's weakness, the outcome would be different, but I think he don't. So the book could have information about Pain's identity and the idenitity of the rest but not about rinnengan or pain's weakness. I wonder who Naruto is going to defeat... Pain or Madara... I would love to see a Madara vs Tsunade fight, but as character I think Naruto needs to fight madara. I wonder what Kishimoto is going to do...

I could be wrong... But I'll stick with Nagato being Pain as and not Yahiko... for three reasons...

Rinnengan had received a mayor boom as the stronger doujutsu... and it would be pretty lame if that an eye technique could be use like Kakashi uses Sharingan...
Second because I believe that Kishimoto is not going complicate his life explaining rinnengan and explaining how (if the case) yahiko obtained it.
For everything that Jiraiya remembered before he said "I know your true identity now"...
He saw something from the short few seconds that Pain Rikudou were lunging at him.

[Alexis]

Well, if Jiraiya knew Pain's weakness, the outcome would be different, but I think he don't. So the book could have information about Pain's identity and the idenitity of the rest but not about rinnengan or pain's weakness. I wonder who Naruto is going to defeat... Pain or Madara... I would love to see a Madara vs Tsunade fight, but as character I think Naruto needs to fight madara. I wonder what Kishimoto is going to do...

Pain's identity is what he seemed to try and protect. He always changed the subject or played dumb when it came up. Like when he acted like Yahiko is someone whom he barely cares to remember. Pretty much like Sasuke did.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8186/kkgjkgjoi3.jpg

So I think his identity is very important, and that's why he could easily tell Jiraya his master plan, but always avoided the questions whenever the subject touched on Nagato/Yahiko. Even Konan did.
And I'm not sure what you mean about the outcome being different. If they fought again and Jiraya knew from the start you mean? Then Pain probably would have lost. Those were his own words. But Jiraya only remembered who Pain is right before he was stabbed to death. There was nothing he could do after that.
But I think the message Jiraya left behind will mean more than just putting a name to the face. Jiraya said that no one would probably ever get this close to Pain again. So whatever message he left behind, I think it's going to be something important.

And yeah, the book probably doesn't contain information about the Rinnegan. Because Jiraya had focused on the Rinnegan and Nagato all this time and couldn't figure out anything. I think he was focusing on the wrong thing, and Pain happily let him do so.


2. Second because I believe that Kishimoto is not going complicate his life explaining rinnengan and explaining how (if the case) yahiko obtained it.
3. For everything that Jiraiya remembered before he said "I know your true identity now"...

2. Well this is the main villain of the series, so making his story deep wouldn't be surprising. Actually he already has made it deep, whether it is Yahiko, Nagato or someone else. And even if it would be Nagato he would still have to explain all the bodies and Rinnegan anyway. But I don't think "It is Nagato... it isn't Nagato... no wait it is... no wait it isnt. No wait... it IS him!" is going to be the big revalation. A badly wrapped christmas gift.

3. Personally, I don't want Jiraya to have lost simply because he was so slow that he couldn't process that exact same information he was thinking of this whole time, and had been fighting Pain throught the whole battle with the assumption that he is Nagato, a Rinnegan user. That would be a bit disappointing. Like, he should have realised it sooner. For that reason I think it's something he didn't focus on before. And since Yahiko and Konan were also in those flashbacks theres a good chance for that. Not to mention those other five Shinobi bodies he had seen before.

[dragon2021]

The whole Negato is Pein thing does not make sense to me. It did not make sense to Jiriaya and I can understand why. Negato seemed to be gentle and understanding and realy only wanted to use his power to help his friends. However, Yahiko wanted to make those waging war pay. I could see from the begining that this kid was going to be a problem in the future and so could Jiriaya. However, he did not have the eyes and so he dismissed it. I personaly think something happened to Negato and Yahiko got his eyes. However, just like Kakshi they have draw backs becuase they were not originaly his. I think the bodies are there to confuse the opponent just like a shadow clone except different people. A person could be fighting a dead body the whole fught and use up all one chakara and then he comes in for the kill.

[Franckie]

Since the following theory addresses Pein, I do believe this thread would be most appropriate. ^__^


http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8910/03pf5.th.jpg (http://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?image=03pf5.jpg)http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/7384/04tr9.th.jpg (http://img250.imageshack.us/my.php?image=04tr9.jpg)

Whenever the power of bijuu is sealed into something, that power is compressed and it becomes possible for it to be directed. As Chiyo points out, however, that power still cannot be controlled. Pein intends to collect the power of bijuu and harness their power to fuel his kinjutsu which he will distribute amongst the warring nations to incite war and make them even bigger as he goes about continuing his plans for Akatsuki to take control of the world so the wars will cease and desist.

We still don't know though how Pein intends on controlling that power. One method to controlling that power was by sealing the bijuu into a human, hence the term "jinchuuriki" came about. We know for a fact that kekkei-genkais can manipulate the power of bijuu as well.


http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/7315/09br2.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09br2.jpg)http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5333/0405ge4.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0405ge4.jpg)

Madara's current priority is to restore the sharingan as well as himself to full-power. I'm going to go out on a limb here when I state the sharingan's true-power is control over bijuu, specifically over the Kyuubi's power. Madara knocked out the Sanbi and Madara summoned Kyuubi before in the past; furthermore, we can see symbols here as shown in the first chapter as shown here. And with the fact that Madara is 100+ years old, it means he has artificially lengthened his lifespan just how Kakuzu did by stealing hearts. He could be a body-hopper like Oro, and Madara intends to take the keenest sharingan of all for himself, Sasuke's eyeballs.

Pein probably needs Madara's help controlling the power of bijuu. To put it simply, the bijuu statue is a "nuclear reactor" and the sharingan acts as a "cooling rod" to keep things from going critical.

Since Sasori left Suna over twenty years ago and Oro probably joined a couple of years before he fled Konoha (like Itachi), I figure a good estimate for when Akatsuki would have been created would have been about twenty-five years ago. This would make Pein about roughly 20 at the time.

It's very well possible that Pein is the one who arranged for Oro to resurrect the Shodai's ability.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/MISC%20Manga%20Pages/16-1.jpg

Yamato would have received the Shodai's ability over twenty-years ago, which would fit into my estimate that Akatsuki's creation was about 25 years prior. Unfortunately, Oro got busted experimenting on people and never knew that Yamato survived. Out of luck, Pein researched other means to control the power of bijuu.

I figure Madara came across Akatsuki after the Kyuubi attack. He learned about Akatsuki just as Jiraiya did since they both kept tabs on Oro after he left. Madara eventually tracks down Pein, the two have a conversation, and Madara makes Pein an offer: He can solve Pein's dilemma if he can help him retrieve Kyuubi (and the other bijuu to boot) that the Yondaime hijacked and sealed into his own son. Pein accepts the offer, but makes up a lie that Kyuubi has to be sealed last, which gives him ample time so he can complete his own objective before Madara can backstab him. At the time as well, Madara keeping Pein informed on what went on in Konoha and other places would prove useful as well.

It's also possible that Pein was the one who orchestrated Oro's attempt to possess Itachi so he wouldn't have to contend with Madara screwing him some how.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/MISC%20Manga%20Pages/page-08.jpg


I do believe Pein and Madara will betray each other before this series ends. Pein has to put up with Madara's current ploys because he's the only guy who can solve the current dilemma of manipulating the power of bijuu. Considering the ever-increasing important of the Shodai's character, comments made towards Naruto when he went KN4, and what completing "that jutsu" requires, Pein will take an interest in Naruto outside of Kyuubi because he will realize he can use Naruto (somehow) to manipulate the power of bijuu, hence he'll have no longer use for Madara and will attempt to dispose of him.

The reason betrayal may very well happen within Akatsuk is because if it's one thing we've seen over and over again in this series, the concept of betrayal is ever present:

- Gatou: Tried to pull a fast one on Zabuza.
- Orochimaru: Betrayed Konoha and set Suna up by killing the Yondaime Kazekage.
- Itachi: Betrayed Konoha and killed the Uchiha Clan.
- Madara: Betrayed Konoha for reasons which have yet to be disclosed.
- Sasuke: Betrayed Konoha and attempted to kill Naruto before he betrayed Oro and killed him.

Betrayal seems rather rampant for Sasuke and his counterparts. We are talking about one individual who believes himself to be a god, and you can count on Madara to have a super ego as well. It is also important to keep in mind that Pein has several connections to one of Naruto's counterparts, the Shodai Hogake. Shodai wasn't a fan of war, wished for peace, was a village leader, and personally knew Madara. Pein shares these traits as well. And we all know Shodai and Madara had a fall-out with each other which resulted in VotE.

It is also important to note how Pein references Madara. Etiquette is a big deal in Japan. Pein addressed Jiraiya as Jiraiya-sensei and praised his sensei's strength despite the fact he killed him. When Pein referenced his "boss" (Madara), he did not do so by proper title or by adding a suffix addressing respect (-san, -sama, -sensei, and -sempai all demonstrate respect). It is evident that Pein does not like Madara and does not think too highly of him. "God" would probably like to be rid of the "devil" if possible.

Anyway, back to my theory now...Pein will attempt to betray Madara when he realizes something about Naruto: Naruto can control Kyuubi's power, and in theory, expand upon it to control the power of lesser bijuu.

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/2225/11qm1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Completing "that jutsu" requires Naruto to master the Kyuubi's power. The key to Naruto surpassing the Yondaime Hogake lies within Kyuubi. Learning to masterfully wield his bijuu will allow him to complete Yondaime's two supermoves (FRS and "that jutsu) while allowing him to defeat an opponent not even Yondaime could defeat (Pein).

The reason why Naruto will eventually obtain this ability is because of his unique chakra.


http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/420/truestrengthce2yf5.th.png (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=truestrengthce2yf5.png)http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2883/mysterysz8yl1.th.png (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mysterysz8yl1.png)

We know Shodai could bend the power of bijuu to his will via Mokuton Ninjutsu, which turns chakra into a source of life. We know Madara could summon Kyuubi and we've seen Sasuke suppress Kyuubi's power because of the "wickedness" of their chakra. Naruto's chakra is unique and what properties it possesses is currently unknown.

It isn't sheer coincidence that Pein is now missing a body that needs replaced (kuchiyose). It is unlikely that Pein's assimilation ability though allows him to preserve the properties of the person he incorporates into himself. Why? Because the person's physical appearance is greatly altered with the inclusion of the Rinnegan. It's unlikely that unique abilities like kekkei-genkais are preserved with Pein's assimilation method.

There is a form of immortality though that allows a person to preserve a body's unique ability: Fushi Tensei. Akatsuki has shown itself to be interested in learning the secrets behind Oro's technique.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3677/03cz4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The reason why Kabuto was sent to Oro, besides keeping tabs on him, was to obtain the secrets behind Fushi Tensei. Why? Sasori did ask Kabuto to study up on the kinjutsu, but is the reason why such an interest something Sasori was curious about, or did Sasori send Kabuto to spy on Orochimaru on somebody's orders?

I don't think it's sheer coincidence that Kishimoto has had Kabuto implant Oro's remains into himself.


http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7941/02na6.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02na6.jpg)

Kabuto is now undergoing a transformation which will give him a body akin to what Oro possessed. Kabuto also plans to attack Naruto as soon as matters concerning Sasuke are dealt with. It may very well be possible that Kabuto could end up as the final villain, but then again, it's unlikely since Kabuto will eventually evolve into the villain Oro could never be (a villain who doesn't flee from the main character, holds a special interest in the main character, and plans to attack the main character). Since Kabuto will eventually become a rehash of Oro though, it's unlikely he'll be sticking around until the end of the manga. (Major villains in shounen typically aren't amongst the final villains.)

If Kabuto is killed and Akatsuki gets its hands on Kabuto's carcass, then the secrets behind Fushi Tensei could be unraveled and allow an individual like Pein to copy the technique and develop a variation of it. It wouldn't be a hard task for the man who is a relative of the person who invented ninjutsu itself.

Keep in mind we haven't had an explanation on how Pein incorporates shinobi into the entity known as "Pein". Like Oro, it is very well possible that Kishimoto will parallel (to a certain degree) on what occured between Orochimaru and Sasuke when Oro attempted to possess Sasuke for his Sharingan. By applying properties of Fushi Tensei to how Pein's own method of "immortality" works, it would allow him to preserve the special properties of select individuals.

I would also like to add how the Rinnegan was described by Jiraiya.


It was cooled a tool of Heaven itself...A tool of God that would bring salvation to the world when the world was in chaos or become a weapon that would destroy all creation and return everything to dust.

Now let's add in the prophecy the Frog Sage had of the "destined child".


This pupil will become the harbringer of a great revolution in the world of ninja. He will will finally bring peace to the world or utterly destroy it...The result of his revolution will be one or the other.

Rinnegan's description coincides with the prophecy: A child will bring salvation or destruction to the world. Jiraiya's decision has made Naruto the harbringer of this revolution, yet how will Naruto bring destruction to the world? Naruto does have to contend with becoming devoured by Kyuubi, a side he has yet to conquer, but could it be something else? An additional plausible scenario is what will happen if Naruto loses to Pein. Not only will Pein acquire Kyuubi, but Pein will acquire a means to control Kyuubi (Naruto). Thus, "Naruto" will bring destruction to the world.

To put it simply, Pein will attempt a jutsu on Naruto in order to take control of his body in order to obtain possession of Naruto's future Kyuubi control. Pein ought to be able to expand upon this ability and control the power of lesser bijuu since we know Madara possesses Kyuubi control and he had knocked out the Sanbi in addition to Kyuubi possessing the strongest chakra out of all nine demons. Naruto will give Pein a counter to Madara and ensure that Madara cannot pull a fast one on Pein. Acquiring Naruto's body will also give Pein the final motivation he needs to remove Madara from the equation since it is very well possible that Madara will backstab Pein since Pein's usefulness will probably expire after Kyuubi is captured and sealed.

Thoughts?

[ibblows]

Anyone ever think that maybe pain is part of the Nara clan?

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3448/narutov37ch327p09mr0.jpg

Looks a lot like the weapon pain's used. Also it would explain the black piercings (shadows maybe) and why he is able to control bodies.

[Alexis]

Hmm, interesting. Maybe that's why Kakuzu reacted to it. But Pain's weapon doesn't look like it's very straight, and it seems like it's able to extend rather than being a sword. But interesting comparison.

[ibblows]

it could also mean that the 6th element was shadow....

[Jehuty]

it could also mean that the 6th element was shadow....
Uh... I doubt it, else Kakashi would have mentioned it. Where does that leave medical, then?

[ibblows]

it would leave it like a rasengan. Just molding chakra not changing the element.

[Jehuty]

it would leave it like a rasengan. Just molding chakra not changing the element.
It clearly has a different effect than physical manipulation. Shadow is not the sixth element, I can assure you of that.

[ibblows]

lol no you cant. your guess is as good as mine.

[Jehuty]

lol no you cant. your guess is as good as mine.
No, no it isn't.

Kakashi and Yamato described the five chakra elements. Why would they leave one out, especially after Naruto asked about shadow?

[ibblows]

why would they leave one out regardless?

[Jehuty]

why would they leave one out regardless?
Uh. That's exactly my point. They wouldn't leave it out.

[Haloblade345]

When re-reading the chapters i relized something obvious. don't Nagato to kill people to have their body painn-alized or something like that,then that guy with beard that ero-senin was talking to reaperred in the flash back. Remember he was talking about Hazou remember that he killed him as well could it be possible that Nagato could be Hazou. They menched the Amagakuru war (sorry misspelled it) wiched meched the Hozou. So what you think?

Merged from another thread.

[body flicker]

just wondering because his character design to me just sucks it looks like kishi just through him together at the last minute and the way some of his bodies look are just wrong

so what do u guys think of him ???

[mrcongojack]

I'll go on record that I don't like Pain. I don't like the fact that he has uber-magic eyes, I don't like how he is always complaining about how much his life sucks, and I don't like how he thinks he's a God. He's like emo Bill O'Reilly.

[Razh]

First time I saw him, I thought he was cool. Cold and strong, and powerfull. But then, he turns out to ba na EMO fanatic on steroids with a destructive nature. Plus, he sleeps in the same room with 5 other guys, and they all wear the same clothes. That's just waaay out there...

So, no, I don't like that fanatic "one man gang" bastard.

[Quartz-pebble]

I admit I liked him alot more when he was the calculating leader preaching his plans of world domination combined with intelligent business practice from high atop a crazy statue's tongue. That was pretty badass.

[Leos~]

I admit, I like him. At first I hated him, but his battle with Jiraiya was so epic he has grown on me. And his eyes aren't way rediculously overpowered like the $&*#@ sharingan. At least as far as we know.

[mrcongojack]

I admit, I like him. At first I hated him, but his battle with Jiraiya was so epic he has grown on me. And his eyes aren't way rediculously overpowered like the $&*#@ sharingan. At least as far as we know.

No, his ability to control all of the elements and control other bodies is almost a disadvantage... :p

[dragon2021]

From what his ability is supose to do he could be great, but the way he is using the power that is waht is wrong. Let me explain. He is supose to be able to control all chakara with those eyes. This is how he controls the bodies by taking over their chakara. This is a great power. The problem is that Kishi is intent on trying to hide his identity. This still makes us unsure what his abilities are. I mean, he could have anti genjitsu as well but we do not know that. Moreover, he has no personality, but there again it seems to be to hide his identity. I think it is his style of fighting. He ha six bodies can you gues who I realy am? I the enemy guesses wrong their dead. It is realy boring, but his skills could be used in other ways that would make it much better.

[spinsane]

Kakuzu said he killed Hanzou...

[Haloblade345]

Kakuzu said he killed Hanzou...

but in chapter 369 ero said "how was Hazou killed what are pain's abilty" witch means pain killed him

[Decorus]

We have no idea what Pein is capable of so I wouldn't assign abilities to him, that we don't know he can use. Honestly Pein is boring there is no excitement in his fights its hard to enjoy a battle against him and he obviously is just another Madara second stringer.

[Decorus]

Unless Hanzou killed Nagato and Yahiko then faked his own death and became Pein.

[DaK]

yeah he's great...rinnegan, finally something thats announced to be stronger than f*** sharingan!!!!


I'll go on record that I don't like Pain. I don't like the fact that he has uber-magic eyes, I don't like how he is always complaining about how much his life sucks, and I don't like how he thinks he's a God. He's like emo Bill O'Reilly.

(often i believe the name of the manga should "the uchihas and theit great eyes"), plus till now he and zetsu are for me the most mystriest people.

But also he sucks, because he has to be the one, who killed jiraiya.....but also it honors his weight in the story of the main villain and jiraiyas stand of his "GREATNESS" ^^ (pain said he could lose against him).and pein is my hope to kick this madara-ubersharingangigangod- to the past(with sasuke xD)

[GOKURO-3君]

he killed jiraiya and cheats using six bodies

i dont like him

[patedecarne]

Guys, Pain is a total badass, read the post in my sig to discover why, in a manner of speak, he is a god, and there's an argument to support my theory that each Pain has the power of one realm, and just that power: I couldn't remember which chapter, I believe is 376 or 377, Jiraya stated that Pain uses a different type of ability for each body, but that's the ONLY ability each body could use, so that explain how the 3 defeated pains were brought to life

But wait until the Hell Pain fight, you will know why he is a God, hehe

[ShinobiWrath]

He's okay, if you're a fan of zombie movies.

[gold349]

First time I saw him, I thought he was cool. Cold and strong, and powerfull. But then, he turns out to ba na EMO fanatic on steroids with a destructive nature. Plus, he sleeps in the same room with 5 other guys, and they all wear the same clothes. That's just waaay out there...

So, no, I don't like that fanatic "one man gang" bastard.

really funny, I like.:D

You have just killed the reputation of a man, Kishi took time to reveal.

It is bad sleeping with a bunch of Zombies.

Pain IMHO is one bad ass shinobi what ever his power and ability, he just killed off one of the most liked shinobi's in Narutoverse, which gives him loads of BAD points.

We have yet to see what he is really capable off and what his secret is, all shall be revealed when Ma and Pa get back. Still he is a villain and he is currently top dog in that category.

[Decorus]

Considering he almost lost to Jiraiyia I doubt he has much left to impress us with.

[NNGirl]

Since the beggining I like the character, when the Rinnegan was revealed I think that he was really cool, but after the battle with Jiraya, i don't think that he is so cool as before, but still I like the character

[gold349]

Considering he almost lost to Jiraiyia I doubt he has much left to impress us with.

That so can not be the case, We have only seen One out of the six really fight, the Diedara looking one, the rest have yet to show their stuff, one got kicked and landed on his ass, the other one absorbed J'mans ultimate Rasengan and one shot his arm out, that can not be all to Pain.

We have still to find out who he really is? there is so much more to Pain, Kishi could create a whole manga on him alone. just my opinion.

[warbandit66]

I dislike Pein, not because he killed Jiraiya but the fact that he seems to be completely devoid of any sort of personality, for me he seems to have no presence whatsoever as an antagonist.

[Tsukisama]

Pain is a very interesting character. He is one of the first characters in manga that claims to be a god that truly acts like one. That lack of personality is really what defines his character as a mysterious, ubiquitous deific figure. I like the Rin'negan, as there is finally something that gives the Sharingan competition for the title of most ridiculously overpowered ability in the manga (not counting being a jinchuriki). I like his powers, and so far I like him; so, I guess I like Pain. :amuse The only thing that I dislike about him so far is that he is Madara's tool. He's heir to the power of creation of all jutsu and yet he is under the thumb of Sharingan user. For me to completely like the character, Pain would need to grow a pair and start acting like a real god, i.e., real gods are nobody's b****.

[badluckartist]

I'm officially down as unsure. I've been neutral to him ever since he was introduced, and I still am for the same reason- we just still don't know enough about him. We don't even know if he's Nagato or Yahiko, it's ridiculous. I loved Jiraiya (probably second fave next to Shika), but his death was inevitable- it was important to the story and Naruto's growth.

So I'm not holding that against him, but I am holding the whole "cheating" with his Rin'negan against him. He said himself that had Jiraiya known about the 6 bodies, he would probably have lost, and that just turns me off to a major villain- at least until we learn more about him.

[lordHokage]

I like Pein because he's sooo mysterious. I do think there is more Pein than meets the eyes. I can’t wait for his showdown with Naruto. :D

[minato-sama09]

good call lord hokage i think thatswill be the best!

[Raimaru]

No. He killed Jirayia-sama. Never forgive that.

[lordHokage]

No. He killed Jirayia-sama. Never forgive that.

I haven't and I missed Pervy Sage but he put his life on the line to gather hush-hush information on Pein-sama, that's what makes his secret identity so mysterious. :blink

[Franckie]

I used to say Gaara was badass, but now I say Pein. He doesn't get sentimental about dead-beat puppet parents. He could careless about throwing a temper tantrum and blowing himself up over something. He isn't interested in seeing the reincarnation of his parents. And lastly, he isn't interested in chasing Uchihas for whatever peculiar reason.

With Pein, he goes straight about business (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/254/15/), directing the efforts of the other members with his orders (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/254/17/). Even when people give Pein some lip, he has no problems keeping himself poised and collected. Pein chucked against Sasori (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/260/19/) and he posed in front of Hidan (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/15/). Even when the "invincible immortal", Uchiha Madara, "threatened" Pein (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/17/), Pein keeps himself entirely composed (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/17/) when Madara warned Pein he would not accept failure from the Leader.

Pein has never lost a battle (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/15/). Pein is an individual who conquered an entire shinobi nation by himself (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/09/). Pein is the man who killed Hanzou singlehandledly (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/13/). Pein has the power to keep Akatsuki in line (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/367/06/). Pein can utilize the most illustrious (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/02/) and powerful (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/06/) doujutsu, the Rinnegan. He is worshipped as a god (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/07/), he believes himself to be a god (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/374/09/), he extends his terror to anyone who may dare oppose him no matter who the individual happens to be (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/14/). He plans to destroy the shinobi world (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/374/10/) and bring the world into his light of peace (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/374/13/).

Still, despite the fact Pein thinks highly of himself, he is considerate of others. He's done a lot for Amegakure (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/368/08/). He showed respect for Deidara's sacrifice (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/09/). He doesn't like snickering remarks like the one Kisame made about Hidan & Kakuzu (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/353/011/). And even when Pein got done killing Jiraiya, he gives his former-sensei the highest possible praise Pein can give to anyone (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/383/13/). He is compassionate about the plights of the world, and he seeks to eliminate them through a twisted means of thinking, built upon advice Jiraiya had given to him as a child combined with Yahiko's twisted ideals.

We can see why Pein became the individual he is today because of his background. Although we haven't learned of everything about Pein's background, we do know that Kishimoto highlighted the socio-economic conditions that a country like Amegakure faced. Politically unstable, impoverished, and the playground for the wars of other countries, especially the five major shinobi nations since three of them (Suna, Iwa, & Konoha) all border around Amegakure (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/366/10/). Yahiko reflected upon these conditions with the drive to change things, (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/15/) ambitions that Pein now carries. We've also seen him reflect upon the status of Amegakure with the following lines.

- "Too many people have died here." It reflects upon the number of people who have died from Ame's countless number of wars.
- "Nothing happened. This is just another fight". It reflects upon the number of battles Pein has been forced to fight over the years.
- "But I, living in the center of an infinite universe of pain have grown from a person into something more." We see Pein reflect upon how Ame is the center of constant strife between the various countries, specifically the five major nations.

In terms of abilities, Pein is quite diverse.

- Control the weather.
- Summon whatever he wants, and each summon has the Rinnegan.
- Combination maneuvers that allow Pein to either attack and/or defend at the same time with perfect timing.
- Rocket arms.
- Black spears which numb the body and impair chakra control.
- Absorb whatever jutsu he wants.
- Revive himself in battle.
- All six elemental recompositions.
- Rinnegan.
- Etc etc.


Pein even has some cool scenes you'll find in the manga, two of which happen to contain two poses I find badass.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4320/narutov36ch329p1617speczn3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7687/6pathsofpeinbluebykaminnu2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Pein has the attitute, the poses, and the skills worthy of the individual we only knew as "the Akatsuki Leader". Pein is one character I look forward to seeing further developed because Pein is going to be around for another 100+ chapters.


Considering he almost lost to Jiraiyia I doubt he has much left to impress us with.

Pein doesn't think Jiraiya is stronger than him. Pein admits he would have lost the fight against Jiraiya if he hadn't split himself into six different bodies. All of Pein in one body vs Jiraiya = Jiraiya wins. And the reason why Pein thinks Jiraiya could have won the fight is because of the genjutsu. The Frog Song is an incredible offensive move, a technique that Pein had no knowledge about, and Jiraiya used that fact against Pein. But since Pein did split himself into multiple bodies, he proved himself to be the superior fighter.

In the end, Pein's trump proved to be superior to Jiraiya's trump in not only pure effectiveness, but in the manner of how each opponent's respective trumps were used against each other.

[DaK]

I used ...............

I can totally agree with u.With your summary of the knowledge about pain (so far), you make him looking more sicker to me.Especially your interpretation of his judge about the fight with j-man, great(i haven´t saw it that way, till now).My ownly wish is that he kicks madaras ass and the hole "mightywe´rethebesthavingsharingan" uchihas....:blink

[Neuroff]

Pein doesn't think Jiraiya is stronger than him. Pein admits he would have lost the fight against Jiraiya if he hadn't split himself into six different bodies. All of Pein in one body vs Jiraiya = Jiraiya wins. And the reason why Pein thinks Jiraiya could have won the fight is because of the genjutsu. The Frog Song is an incredible offensive move, a technique that Pein had no knowledge about, and Jiraiya used that fact against Pein. But since Pein did split himself into multiple bodies, he proved himself to be the superior fighter.

In the end, Pein's trump proved to be superior to Jiraiya's trump in not only pure effectiveness, but in the manner of how each opponent's respective trumps were used against each other.
If Pain's only secret is that he has 6 bodies, Jiraiya would be alive right now.

[patedecarne]

Somehow I think his secret is related to the code Jiraya left, maybe Jiraya figured it out moments before he died, and will pass that secret to someone else, but this secret is really, really important, that I'm sure

But his secret isn't splitting himself in 6 bodies, but very likely is related with the powers Pain had, the the powers to bring back the dead is a good example.

[Franckie]

I can totally agree with u.With your summary of the knowledge about pain (so far), you make him looking more sicker to me.Especially your interpretation of his judge about the fight with j-man, great(i haven´t saw it that way, till now).My ownly wish is that he kicks madaras ass and the hole "mightywe´rethebesthavingsharingan" uchihas....:blink

It's quite evident that several members in Akatsuki hold little to no respect for Madara. Pein didn't bother to address Madara as Madara-sama when he referenced him by name, though Pein followed proper etiquette by addressing his former mentor as Jiraiya-sensei. Itachi thinks Madara is a "pathetic shell of his former self". And Konan told Madara's warning regarding Naruto to be meaningless because while Madara has been defeated on two several occasions, Pein hasn't lost once for the 30+ yrs. he's been fighting in one of the most war-torn countries in existance.

I imagine Pein will do something similar to Itachi, who we know plans to attack Madara, but only after he acquires Sasuke's eyes. Yes, Pein will eventually go after Madara (would you trust the guy considering what we know about him?), but only after business with Naruto is dealt with. I do believe Pein will take an interest in Naruto outside of Kyuubi (we have 100+ chapters to work with here) and attempt to take possession of Naruto's power (FRS, Kyuubi control, etc.) for himself.

Madara is the perfect means for Kishi to bowtie this series, and I really doubt Kishi will avoid doing such a thing. Madara is the leading candidate for final villain simply because of his ties to both Naruto and Sasuke.


If Pain's only secret is that he has 6 bodies, Jiraiya would be alive right now.

Jiraiya was on the defensive for the entire fight. His only means of winning the fight were with the Frog Song, and to genjutsu all three bodies at the same time required Jiraiya to blind two of them simultaneously with a risky gamble. It's highly unlikely Jiraiya could blind several bodies simultaneously if he had to deal with all six initially. And if Pein knew about the Frog Song in advance, it's likely that Pein would be successful in countering the jutsu.

Prior knowledge about a person's abilities can only do so much. Even if Jiraiya had prior knowledge about several of Pein's abilities in advance of the fight, it would be meaningless without preptime.

We do know that shinobi with preptime + prior knowledge can beat far superior opponent(s) no matter the difficulty (i.e. Hidan vs Shika). That's why Kishi put Pein and Jiraiya in the same boat with each other instead of giving Jiraiya an insane advantage over Pein. Pein's last remarks were to simply make Jiraiya look good at the very last minute, similar to how Oro commented that Sandaime could have pulled off a tie if he had been ten years younger.


Somehow I think his secret is related to the code Jiraya left, maybe Jiraya figured it out moments before he died, and will pass that secret to someone else, but this secret is really, really important, that I'm sure

But his secret isn't splitting himself in 6 bodies, but very likely is related with the powers Pain had, the the powers to bring back the dead is a good example.

Jiraiya did win Round Two. He did permanent damage by capturing one of Pein's bodies, having Ma & Pa go to Tsunade to inform her of Pein's abilities, and he left a message that will ultimately bring Pein to his death.

Still, it's not to say that Pein wasn't impressive in his first fight. Unlike Sasori vs Kankurou, Itachi vs Kakashi, or Kakuzu vs Chuunin, Pein was up against the most difficult opposition in the manga that the "good guys" could muster.

[Neuroff]

Jiraiya was on the defensive for the entire fight. His only means of winning the fight were with the Frog Song, and to genjutsu all three bodies at the same time required Jiraiya to blind two of them simultaneously with a risky gamble. It's highly unlikely Jiraiya could blind several bodies simultaneously if he had to deal with all six initially. And if Pein knew about the Frog Song in advance, it's likely that Pein would be successful in countering the jutsu.

Prior knowledge about a person's abilities can only do so much. Even if Jiraiya had prior knowledge about several of Pein's abilities in advance of the fight, it would be meaningless without preptime.
Jiraiya adjusted his strategy multiple times during the fight based on what he saw from Pain. Preptime isn't necessary.


We do know that shinobi with preptime + prior knowledge can beat far superior opponent(s) no matter the difficulty (i.e. Hidan vs Shika). That's why Kishi put Pein and Jiraiya in the same boat with each other instead of giving Jiraiya an insane advantage over Pein. Pein's last remarks were to simply make Jiraiya look good at the very last minute, similar to how Oro commented that Sandaime could have pulled off a tie if he had been ten years younger.
So you think Jiraiya died so he could learn nothing? Even if the secret Pain is talking about is the 6 bodies, he's not saying they would have lost if they didn't have 6 bodies. He's saying he would have lost if Jiraiya had known that. It's not like Pain can go back to being a single person.

[patedecarne]

Still, it's not to say that Pein wasn't impressive in his first fight. Unlike Sasori vs Kankurou, Itachi vs Kakashi, or Kakuzu vs Chuunin, Pein was up against the most difficult opposition in the manga that the "good guys" could muster.

you're right, look, Pain was against Jiraya, one (if not the strongest) the most strong ninjas in all narutoverse, using all of his powers, and the battle was incredible, and not only that, but did you guys notice that ANY OTHER person instead of Pain would be died in that jutsu with 4 frogs where 3 Pains "died"? The only exception would be sasori, but Jiraya would killed him after that genjutsu, Hidan, Deidara, Itachi, etc, all of them would be totally crushed in that battle, and still Pain manages to kill Jiraya; Pain deserver all the credits as the Akatsuki leader, and so the most badass

[Franckie]

Jiraiya adjusted his strategy multiple times during the fight based on what he saw from Pain. Preptime isn't necessary.

Pein defeated Jiraiya's hair, he defeated Gamaken, and he defeated Hermit Mode. Pein had Jiraiya on the ropes during the entire fight, and forced Jiraiya to use his final trump card, the Frog Song. It means that 50% Pein > Jiraiya (Hermit Mode).

And as I previously mentioned, keep in mind that Jiraiya had to blind two of Pein's bodies with a risky gamble just to catch all three bodies in the genjutsu. It's highly unlikely he could accomplish such a feat against all six bodies unless he were given an additional boost in power via preptime.


So you think Jiraiya died so he could learn nothing? Even if the secret Pain is talking about is the 6 bodies, he's not saying they would have lost if they didn't have 6 bodies. He's saying he would have lost if Jiraiya had known that. It's not like Pain can go back to being a single person.

Jiraiya risked his life to discover Pein's secrets, and he lost his life as a result of that. Pein admitting that it was his secret was what won him the fight is no different than stating the reason why Pein won the fight is because he had split himself into multiple bodies. Now whether or not Pein can conjure up a Nagato body remains to be seen, but such a trick would have been useless against Jiraiya because of Hermit Mode, specifically the genjutsu.

[Decorus]

Not really I was expecting more from Pein. Honestly Pein seemed to be fairly weak compared to J-man. Having all those bodies was not exceptionally impressive. It honestly looked to me like J-man lost, because he dropped his guard after he thought he had killed Pein. Even then J-man could have escaped and regrouped if he had wanted to.

[Franckie]

Not really I was expecting more from Pein. Honestly Pein seemed to be fairly weak compared to J-man. Having all those bodies was not exceptionally impressive. It honestly looked to me like J-man lost, because he dropped his guard after he thought he had killed Pein. Even then J-man could have escaped and regrouped if he had wanted to.

Whether or not you enjoy Pein's fighting-style is a matter of personal opinion, it doesn't change the fact that Pein has some of the deadliest powers in the manga. And Jiraiya retreating would still count as a win for Pein because forfeit/flee counts as "victory" just as defeating the opponent.

[Neuroff]

Pein defeated Jiraiya's hair, he defeated Gamaken, and he defeated Hermit Mode. Pein had Jiraiya on the ropes during the entire fight, and forced Jiraiya to use his final trump card, the Frog Song. It means that 50% Pein > Jiraiya (Hermit Mode).
I have no idea how you can reach this conclusion. Jiraiya KILLED the 3 Pains.


Jiraiya risked his life to discover Pein's secrets, and he lost his life as a result of that.
Jiraiya died to figure out Pain's identity. If Pain's only secret was the 6 bodies, he would still be alive. So tell me why you keep assuming that the secret Pain is talking about is the 6 bodies?


Pein admitting that it was his secret was what won him the fight is no different than stating the reason why Pein won the fight is because he had split himself into multiple bodies.
Even if the 6 bodies is what Pain's talking about, he could just as easily be saying he would have lost had Jiraiya known he had 6 bodies.

[Decorus]

Okay good Franckie so we agree that Deidara beat the living crap out of Sasuke. Fleeing = loss:)

The only reason why Jiraiya had to have Ma and Pa use the Frog song was its exceptionally difficult to fight 3 people at once when one of them just summons, one absorbs any jutsu you toss at them and the last one is actually attacking you. Its even worse when all three of them fight perfectly coordinated like they exist as a hive mind.

[Franckie]

I have no idea how you can reach this conclusion. Jiraiya KILLED the 3 Pains.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/515/01vt7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Jiraiya died to figure out Pain's identity. If Pain's only secret was the 6 bodies, he would still be alive. So tell me why you keep assuming that the secret Pain is talking about is the 6 bodies?

One of Pein's secrets is that he is a consciousness distributed through six individual bodies. Jiraiya didn't realize this immediately into the fight.


Even if the 6 bodies is what Pain's talking about, he could just as easily be saying he would have lost had Jiraiya known he had 6 bodies.

Pein admits the reason why he won the fight is because of his trick. If he hadn't split himself into multiple bodies, he would have lost the fight. And even if it is revealed down the road that Pein was referring to the six bodies, it would simply be telling the readers something we already know: It's possible to have a remote chance of beating "God", and people who can do it actually exist.

Like I said - Jiraiya and Pein were put on the same boat with each other. It would have been very unfair on Kishi's part to give Jiraiya prior knowledge + preptime to boost his effective powerlevel through the roof against his fight with Pein. Pein's comment is simply to make Jiraiya look good at his final moment. It doesn't detract from Pein's power and the fight with Jiraiya secures the hype that Kishi had bestowed upon Pein.


Okay good Franckie so we agree that Deidara beat the living crap out of Sasuke. Fleeing = loss:)
Deidara blew himself up and Sasuke survived. Death = Win. :)


The only reason why Jiraiya had to have Ma and Pa use the Frog song was its exceptionally difficult to fight 3 people at once when one of them just summons, one absorbs any jutsu you toss at them and the last one is actually attacking you. Its even worse when all three of them fight perfectly coordinated like they exist as a hive mind.

Pein is an entity where one will is shared by multiple bodies. Pein has six bodies when he fights 1:1. And the reason why Jiraiya needed to use the Frog Song is because 50% of Pein's power (three bodies) completely trumped Jiraiya's ninjutsu and taijutsu because of Pein's ability to attack and/or defend so flawlessly.

[Decorus]

If Pein fights Naruto that way he would lose.

No fleeing no matter what the reason is still a loss. If Sasuke had stayed he would have died. He survived, but lost. Even then if Deidara hadn't gone apeshit he still would have won as Sasuke had nothing left to toss at him.

[Neuroff]

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/515/01vt7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
And then Jiraiya kills the 3 Pains.


One of Pein's secrets is that he is a consciousness distributed through six individual bodies. Jiraiya didn't realize this immediately into the fight.
He also didn't know Pain's identity.


Pein admits the reason why he won the fight is because of his trick. If he hadn't split himself into multiple bodies, he would have lost the fight. And even if it is revealed down the road that Pein was referring to the six bodies, it would simply be telling the readers something we already know: It's possible to have a remote chance of beating "God", and people who can do it actually exist.
You're still making the same assumption.


Like I said - Jiraiya and Pein were put on the same boat with each other. It would have been very unfair on Kishi's part to give Jiraiya prior knowledge + preptime to boost his effective powerlevel through the roof against his fight with Pein. Pein's comment is simply to make Jiraiya look good at his final moment. It doesn't detract from Pein's power and the fight with Jiraiya secures the hype that Kishi had bestowed upon Pein.
I'm not saying Pain is weak, but what he says is a testament to Jiraiya's strength.

[TheChosenOne]

I liked Pain when he was first introduced cuz he came of as cold and without emotions just like how he should be, then his fight against Jiraiya again showed how great a character he was. Even though he technically lost, the fact that he still has enough praise and respect to declare Jiraiya a winner if he had figured out the secret, shows that Pain is not someone who cries over his loss. But now I think we will never see Pain developed to his potential considering Madara coming into the picture, who just dwarfs everything. :)

[Franckie]

If Pein fights Naruto that way he would lose.

No fleeing no matter what the reason is still a loss. If Sasuke had stayed he would have died. He survived, but lost. Even then if Deidara hadn't gone apeshit he still would have won as Sasuke had nothing left to toss at him.

Sasuke had enough chakra to summon Manda while Deidara had exhausted himself. Deidara using a kamikaze attack is an admission of inferiority.


And then Jiraiya kills the 3 Pains.

And then Pein revives those three bodies.


He also didn't know Pain's identity.

He couldn't make up his mind as to whether it was Yahiko or Nagato.


You're still making the same assumption.

It's not an assumption. And you haven't disproven anything yet.


I'm not saying Pain is weak, but what he says is a testament to Jiraiya's strength.
Yes, it is a testament to Jiraiya's strength, but it still doesn't change the fact that Pein is more powerful than Jiraiya and that he won the fight.

[Neuroff]

And then Pein revives those three bodies.
You said 50% Pain > Jiraiya. Jiraiya killed the 3. Tell me again how 50% Pain is stronger than Jiraiya?


He couldn't make up his mind as to whether it was Yahiko or Nagato.
It doesn't have to be either. You're making an assumption again.


It's not an assumption. And you haven't disproven anything yet.
Yes, it is an assumption. And your logic is backward, you are the one who should be proving it. There are multiple possibilities, but you picked one and said that's what it is. You're not just assuming the secret is the bodies. You're assuming that he's saying he won because he split, and not because Jiraiya didn't know he had 6 bodies.

[Franckie]

You said 50% Pain > Jiraiya. Jiraiya killed the 3. Tell me again how 50% Pain is stronger than Jiraiya?

50% of Pein's power forced Jiraiya to initiate a tactical retreat and use his final trump card, Frog Song. If Jiraiya's plan to blind the Peins had failed, he would have been killed with Pein's first three bodies.


It doesn't have to be either. You're making an assumption again.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/380/04/

Jiraiya couldn't make up his mind as to whether Pein was Yahiko or Nagato.


Yes, it is an assumption. And your logic is backward, you are the one who should be proving it. There are multiple possibilities, but you picked one and said that's what it is. You're not just assuming the secret is the bodies. You're assuming that he's saying he won because he split, and not because Jiraiya didn't know he had 6 bodies.

No. Jiraiya, Ma, nor Pa did not realize a total of six bodies existed until Pein Rikudou appeared (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/16/). Pein thinks Jiraiya would have won if not for his secret, one of which being that he had split himself into six different bodies. If Pein hadn't split himself, he would never have won the fight.

[Neuroff]

50% of Pein's power forced Jiraiya to initiate a tactical retreat and use his final trump card, Frog Song. If Jiraiya's plan to blind the Peins had failed, he would have been killed with Pein's first three bodies.
And now you're assuming Jiraiya would have died. Jiraiya killed them, that's all that matters.


http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/380/04/

Jiraiya couldn't make up his mind as to whether Pein was Yahiko or Nagato.
And he also thought the Fuuma ninja was Nagato. Anyway, the point was that Jiraiya didn't know Pain's identity going into the fight. This is irrelevant.


No. Jiraiya, Ma, nor Pa did not realize a total of six bodies existed until Pein Rikudou appeared (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/16/). Pein thinks Jiraiya would have won if not for his secret, one of which being that he had split himself into six different bodies. If Pein hadn't split himself, he would never have won the fight.
And we already knew that they didn't know Pain had six bodies. That doesn't prove anything.

[Oblivion]

just what are you arguing about??? i mean it looks more like you just want to contradict the other....

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Pain is strong but he is probably the most unimpressive people in akatsuki outside of Hidan. His techniques were strong but the were all pretty corny. All we saw were his summoning techniques.

[Timeless]

What I think of Pain, from all we've seen of him so far:

Good points:
He's mysterious (that always works) and he doesn't lose his head - he stays calm and collected and doesn't show what he feels. He even refrains from doing typical bad guy things, like explaining precisely everything there is to know about him when asked (also, laughing like an idiot) That's strong, man. There aren't many villains who are capable of such nihilism. Pain pretty much appears to be all about bussiness.

Alright, now for the Bad points.

He's by far the worst emo we've seen in Naruto. While he doesn't explain every detail about his life, he really makes sure everybody knows how tragically god**mned sad his life is; so sad that, in fact, he transcended humanity. In other words, he's convinced that he's the most tragic person alive, and thus have the right to judge others because he has lived through times and events so painful that he has greater understanding of the world than anybody else - and by extension that also means that nobody can understand him. Furthermore, he named himself "Pain". That's pretty pathetic, really.

Recap: His life sucks, everyone else sucks and nobody understands him. He, on the other hand, understands everything and considers himself more mature and grown up than anyone else (apparently, wanting to destroy the world since it sucks is a sign of great maturity and wisdom. XD)

Another point is that he considers himself a God, but takes orders from Madara. I'm guessing this is more like a mutually beneficial partnership (with both sides bound to stab the other in the back) than a master-servant relationship, since otherwise Pain shouldn't make any god**mned sense to either himself or anyone else.

He gets extra points for remaining emotionless even when he spoke of his tragedy to Jiraiya, though. At least he isn't bitching about it, and that's good. ;)

[Oblivion]

He even refrains from doing typical bad guy things, like explaining precisely everything there is to know about him when asked (also, laughing like an idiot)

well till yet, noone had such a habit, besides orochimaru's laughing, but that was absolute coolness.


He's by far the worst emo we've seen in Naruto.

an emo would cut himself and whine all day long without ever taking any action....pain does act.


All we saw were his summoning techniques

we also saw resurrection, chakraabsorb (so enourmous that it even absorbed the rasengan)
view sharing, so much power that it rip off jiraya's arm.

ok this might seem underwhelming..but actually its pretty awesome.

[Tsukisama]

we also saw resurrection, chakraabsorb (so enourmous that it even absorbed the rasengan)
view sharing, so much power that it rip off jiraya's arm.

Plus, one of the bodies was seemingly a taijutsu specialist.

[badluckartist]

@Decorus
That would be the weakest plot device EVER, lol.

I'm sure Pain is Nagato still. We just have yet to know what happened to his original body. Him using Yahiko's body- why should people expect him to be Yahiko, when there's just as much of a chance of that as him being any of the others (the other 5 bodies)? I think after (or even before) Yahiko died, he discovered how to use his "Paths of Pain" technique to control bodies, and either has his own (Nagato's) body stashed away somewhere for the ultimate battle, or ascended to an astral form and exists simultaneously within all 6 bodies (5 now, after the one died).

Lol or maybe both. Who knows.

[Jehuty]

@Decorus
That would be the weakest plot device EVER, lol.

I'm sure Pain is Nagato still. We just have yet to know what happened to his original body. Him using Yahiko's body- why should people expect him to be Yahiko, when there's just as much of a chance of that as him being any of the others (the other 5 bodies)? I think after (or even before) Yahiko died, he discovered how to use his "Paths of Pain" technique to control bodies, and either has his own (Nagato's) body stashed away somewhere for the ultimate battle, or ascended to an astral form and exists simultaneously within all 6 bodies (5 now, after the one died).

Lol or maybe both. Who knows.
Jiraiya figures it out only right before he dies. He doubts that it's Nagato and then says, "I knew it!" confirming his doubts.

[Decorus]

Yeap He thought it was Nagato, because of the Rinnegan but he later after seeing the Pein bodies up close decided it was someone else and one of the bodies told him who Pein really was.

[Jehuty]

Yeap He thought it was Nagato, because of the Rinnegan but he later after seeing the Pein bodies up close decided it was someone else and one of the bodies told him who Pein really was.
I though it was the seeing all five bodies lunge at him that confirmed his other, unknown suspicion.

[Decorus]

That was just the icing on the cake since apparently he knows every single one of those bodies.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

we also saw resurrection, chakraabsorb (so enourmous that it even absorbed the rasengan)
view sharing, so much power that it rip off jiraya's arm.

ok this might seem underwhelming..but actually its pretty awesome.

It just seems boring to me. Jariaya was far more impressive in that fight, even though he lost.

[Lelo]

I can't really judge him cause I dont know too much about him. His appearance is pretty cool, all those peircings all over his face. But using 6 different bodies is too much, and I hate it when there's a fight thats not one on one, I guess to take down someone like Jaraiya, u need 6 people

[Mr.Popo]

I think Pain is Konan.
Pain must be some former student of Jiraiya and i doubt it is an unknown character.

It can't be Yahiko, because he had no Rinnegan.
And Nagato was eliminated by Jiraiya.

And for Konan having the Rinnegan: I also think Nagato and Konan where siblings!
In http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/10/ Nagato said they where together before Yahiko appeared.
And Konan's and Nagato's appearance is quite similar also.

[Marq]

I like Pein. He's pretty the much the defintion of Shinobi, seeing as he doesn't seem sentimental about anything. Hell he didn't hesitate to kill his own "sensei". Sure the fight felt a little so-so, but I doubt that is all of Pain's skills and arsenal he has.

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

hmm do i like him?

HE IS THE WHOLE FREAKIN REASON I'M WATCHIN NARUTO.

[DaK]

But using 6 different bodies is too much, and I hate it when there's a fight thats not one on one, I guess to take down someone like Jaraiya, u need 6 people


Yeah good reason, but have 3 types of sharingan justus is also very lame(which is also godlike praised), plus this i can control weather with my chidori and so on.come do you havent enough kishi???with this hype he could make an extra series!!!

....personally i hope the six bodies arent his only special doujutsu(this would be quiet lame).

reasons because people dont like him:

1. he killed jiraiya, ok j-man was my favo too, but this fight was awesome and an honorable way to die for such a special person, hey against the strongest doujutsu(i know y wanted a defeat against a sharingan user:notrust).but in my eyes this was an special honor for a chara like him, to die against the "real" leader:D


2. he isnt a sharigan user;), thats the main reason for me.there are to many sharingan fanboys around here :p (and i hate it)


i hope pein kicks the mighty uhihas a**es.

[ShadowStrike]

just wondering because his character design to me just sucks it looks like kishi just through him together at the last minute and the way some of his bodies look are just wrong

so what do u guys think of him ???

Actually, *which* Pein character are you referring to exactly? And what or who exactly is Pein, anyway?

[lazyboyrod]

So far we still dont know much of anything about Pein.

[Suzaku]

First off, I can't believe people are still calling him "Pein". It's Pain. Obviously. Pein has no meaning, ALL characters in Naruto have names that mean *something*.

That aside, I like him. I'll take him over an Uchiha any day of the weak.

I'll also say that I don't find him "emo". That would imply that he whines and complains that nobody understands him... Which he really doesn't. In fact, he seems to almost be completely unemotional, explaining his goals and past quite clearly.

He's clearly based around the Six Paths of Suffering, which essentially represent the six realms of lifeforms which one can be reincarnated into in Buddhism. I'm also pretty sure that each of his six bodies represents the six realms, IE the fat one is probably the Preta Realm, the one that could use summons is probably the Animal Realm, and so on.

I suppose that there's also a possibility we could see four more bodies, considering some versions of Buddhism have an additional four higher realms.

[Vinnie]

He's a pretty badass character. I sort of hate him because of his six bodies, but that's what makes him really interesting. I'm looking forward to learning more about the character.

[patedecarne]

For anyone who has the power of the sixth realms, Pain sure is too powerful, even for Madara, I believe; and seems each body has an ability based in a realm, for example when the three pains defeated by Jiraya were ressurected without a single Injury, probably it was the power of the Heaven, to ressurect people without Edo tensei, then When the Pain with the Hell's realm come to fight( probably Yahiko), I'm sure we will see the craziest jutsus in all of narutoverse;

For all of that, Pain is a great character

I believe all the people that say pain isn't interesting because of his bodies should think that it's necessary to build a solid character with such great powers!

[lazyboyrod]

Pein is overrated

[Franckie]

First off, I can't believe people are still calling him "Pein". It's Pain. Obviously. Pein has no meaning, ALL characters in Naruto have names that mean *something*.

In a Western point of view, AL's name is pronounced "Pain" because that's what his name means. Similar to the Kira/Killer situation in Death Note. Several Akatsuki members names are written in katakana, so if you were to write the word "pain" in katakana, it should be ペイん, and that translates to pe-i-n in romanji. The Japanese would pronounce the spelling "pain" as pine, because it breaks down to pa-i-n. So really, it doesn't matter too much.

It's a matter of personal choice. I prefer "Pein" over "Pain" just how I prefer "Maito Gai" over "Might Guy" because the latters are fugly. What matters above all else is that people recognize what you're talking about, and I have yet to see anyone be clueless as to not recognize that "Pein" and "Pain" are the same individual.


Pein is overrated

No, he's not.

[Suzaku]

probably it was the power of the Heaven, to ressurect people without Edo tensei, then When the Pain with the Hell's realm come to fight( probably Yahiko)

Actually, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say resurrection would probably be the power of the Jigoku (Naraka) realm. In Buddhism, those who are reincarnated as Naraka are frequently tortured until death, and then revived to being completely healthy, then tortured again, in order to continue their suffering for an extremely long time.

[Decorus]

Pein = Naruto with a slight twist. Boring.....

[MegaX]

Pein = Naruto with a slight twist. Boring.....

Slight twist? Care to elaborate on that?

[Decorus]

Pein has 6 bodies that apparently he can bring back to life if they die.
Naruto can create an army of Shadow Clones to fight for him.

Both fight using superior number to wear down thier opponents.

Both gain information from each of thier additional helpers.

The only difference is apparently each of Pein's have individual special talents they can use.

Its going to be a very boring fight as its hard to make a fight where they just replace thier losses without any real difficulty and who ever runs out of chakra first will win.

Boring.

[patedecarne]

Dec, any fight no way this fight will be boring, not having Sasuke is a great signal that the fight won't be boring, and both Pain and Naruto still have things to show us, like the powers of the sixth bodies from Pain and some things Naruto learned in his training( God, at least give Naruto some tricks here...)

[Franckie]

Pein = Naruto with a slight twist. Boring.....
The only mildly interesting thing Naruto has done thus far in Part II is the prowess of his jinchuuriki power. Naruto has been "meh" for most of Part II, and Pein is the only villain earmarked for Naruto while Oro, Itachi, and Madara have their eyes set on Sasuke.

Unlike Sasuke and Sakura, Naruto (base-mode) hasn't had a major fight. Pein's abilities coupled with Naruto's abilities can lead to a spectacular fight if properly written.

[Marq]

The only mildly interesting thing Naruto has done thus far in Part II is the prowess of his jinchuuriki power. Naruto has been "meh" for most of Part II, and Pein is the only villain earmarked for Naruto while Oro, Itachi, and Madara have their eyes set on Sasuke.

Unlike Sasuke and Sakura, Naruto (base-mode) hasn't had a major fight. Pein's abilities coupled with Naruto's abilities can lead to a spectacular fight if properly written.

Heh I would like to see that, so far this properly written fights of Kishi, I have yet to see any good ones. (except Shika of course) Personally, I'm 50/50. If the Pein fight is just naruto KBs v.s 6 bodies of Pein, then Kishi has failed with the fight. Show me something other than KB. KB may be Naruto's strong point, but jesus, does it have to him win every fight with it? It's like Kishi doesn't care. He gets creative with everyone, but as soon as Naruto fights..

KB AND rasengan. Do something else with the damn kid.

[Raizen]

The author needs to focus more on the MAIN character rather than some lame overpowered uchiha (sasuke). I mean the manga is called Naruto!!! I would like to see naruto utilize the wind elements perfectly when he fight pein. Using the wind to disrupt the motion of pein's bodies or by using the wind he can whip up a sandstorm to blind all 12 eyes of pein.

As far as liking pein or not, I really don't know because I am still really confused about his whole character. After his fight w/ J-man, he stated that had J-man known his secret, he surely would have lost. But what secret is he talking about? Is it that he has the rinnegan? They all share the same field of vision? Each body possesses a different ability? He has 6 bodies? or is it a secret that has yet to be revealed. But based on the "secrets" that I posted above, I really don't see how they could be a factor in who wins or not. Any good ninja who can hold his own would eventually find out that they all share the same vision, each has a dif ability, he has six bodies, etc. So unless I missed something I really still am confused about pein and that whole fight. So please if anyone has an idea please fill me in, and don't just state that pein said he would have lost because I know that, I just am still pondering about HOW???

[Marq]

Mm, the secret was about the six bodies. Not to mention, Jirayia killed Pein's 3 bodies they came back. One of the bodies seems to be in charge of reviving the bodies. If you remember the fight, Jirayia drop his guard for a second, because he believed that he defeated Pein (the 3 bodies, the dedi, the one with his eyes close and the fat one) and the 4th Pein came in and ripped off Jirayia's arm. That was the turning point of the battle seeing as Pein pretty much took out Jirayia, not to mention we saw Jirayia's limit.


Part of me still quesitons if Jirayia deciding to stay instead of running away did help benefit. Sure he confirmed the six bodies etc, to help Naruto and co out, but.. the identity part. I hope it's not really Nagato, otherwise it would kind of seemed a little silly to stay and figure the identity out.

[Decorus]

Naruto vrs Pein is unlikely to take more then one chapter.

"I killed Jiraiya."
"Kyuubi I want to kill Pein."

9 tailed Kyuubi turns Pein into a grease spot then Madara gets what he wants. Kakashi and Sakura are forced to try and deal with a 9 tailed Kyuubi.

[MegaX]

Naruto vrs Pein is unlikely to take more then one chapter.

"I killed Jiraiya."
"Kyuubi I want to kill Pein."

9 tailed Kyuubi turns Pein into a grease spot then Madara gets what he wants. Kakashi and Sakura are forced to try and deal with a 9 tailed Kyuubi.

Even Kishi won't use a plot hook as terrible as that. Naruto will have to learn to avenge Jiraiya with his own power, and Pein will provide the first opportunity for him to do so.

[Decorus]

I thought the same thing with the Sasuke vrs Itachi fight and look how it turned out.

[MegaX]

I thought the same thing with the Sasuke vrs Itachi fight and look how it turned out.

Not nearly as ridiculous as what you've proposed, I'm afraid. And you've been pushing this scenario since before the fight even started.

[Lazarus812]

I don't know if i like pain. on one hand he has crazy abilities and the fighting is and will probably crazy....but at the same time this is a person who claims to be a God yet takes orders from a man that itachi stated wasn't even as strong as he used to be, that doesn't make any sense.
"no jiraya....I am pain and I am A god"
calls madara via hologram body
"what is your bidding master?"
WTF....

[Decorus]

People thought it was ridiculous that Sasuke would beat Itachi without MS and yet I was right then too...
Naruto has been headed in the direction of the seal breaking for a long time its inevitable. Naruto is well known for his temper and considering his reaction to Gaara's death his reaction to Jiraiya's death is going to make that look like a minor issue. Naruto may have actually learned his lesson from the Orochimaru incident, but I doubt it.

[MegaX]

People thought it was ridiculous that Sasuke would beat Itachi without MS and yet I was right then too...
Naruto has been headed in the direction of the seal breaking for a long time its inevitable. Naruto is well known for his temper and considering his reaction to Gaara's death his reaction to Jiraiya's death is going to make that look like a minor issue. Naruto may have actually learned his lesson from the Orochimaru incident, but I doubt it.

Uh-huh. Because that's totally the same thing as "well, even though Naruto has taken the attitude of not really wanting to use the Kyuubi beyond the initial zero-tailed form due to the fact that he's as likely to hurt the people he cares about as his enemies, he's still going to forsake everyone in order to get his revenge."

[lazyboyrod]

I just cant wait for Naruto to become a bad ass and murder the crap outta Pein(s).
O0

[Kusachu]

I think he's hot, at least in the "original" body, but I also think he rather sucks. I thought his little origin story was the lamest thing in the manga to date, and his magical out-of-nowhere-super-awesome ability pisses me off. To me he seems like just a douche who's so emo he doesn't have to dye his hair black.

Perhaps my opinion will change though. I used to really like him when he was just a silhouette.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

The question is, do you guys think he is a god? Because he keeps babbling on about it..

[kat_at_heart]

pain is a stupid arsehole who should just get over himself i mean uve got to be up ure own arse to say to peple that ure a god and then to someone 3 times ure age (Jiraiya) "u havent grown up at all" i mean what a weirdo

[patedecarne]

The question is, do you guys think he is a god? Because he keeps babbling on about it..


Sasuke_Kai_92, read this:
http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=668336&postcount=23

If you thinking of Pain like in the legends, as if has the powers of sixth realms, then you can say that pain is a god; but still, we don't saw all of his powers, then we cannot jump to the conclusion right now, but for all the things in the post, I think is very plausible that Pain really has god's powers

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Sasuke_Kai_92, read this:
http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=668336&postcount=23

If you thinking of Pain like in the legends, as if has the powers of sixth realms, then you can say that pain is a god; but still, we don't saw all of his powers, then we cannot jump to the conclusion right now, but for all the things in the post, I think is very plausible that Pain really has god's powers

Thanks man =) I will read it now, and what you said is true. We atleast know he can summon a LOT of creatures :) and that he has the strongest doujutsu in narutoverse. But yeah, its to early..didnt think about that :\

[Hokuto-Tenki-Sho]

even though he killed my favourite Ero-Sennin, I do like Pain as villain character.
About his true power I think we have seen just glimpse of it. Probably will see full trottle when he will face Naruto, I am only afraid this won't happen soon as Naruto at the moment is no match for Pain.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

even though he killed my favourite Ero-Sennin, I do like Pain as villain character.
About his true power I think we have seen just glimpse of it. Probably will see full trottle when he will face Naruto, I am only afraid this won't happen soon as Naruto at the moment is no match for Pain.

Yeah he is a good villain character. He gets straight to business when it comes to fighting. I just hope to see that WHY is the rin'negan better then the sharingan and the byakugan.. hmm..

[kat_at_heart]

i dont know if it has been suggested before but does anyone think that nagato is contolling those 6 boddies from the side lines, and if you defeat the bodies then he will like show himself or somthing like that?

[Franckie]

i dont know if it has been suggested before but does anyone think that nagato is contolling those 6 boddies from the side lines, and if you defeat the bodies then he will like show himself or somthing like that?

Agree that Pein is Nagato. Disagree that Nagato's original body is safe somewhere else. Having a real body and six controlled bodies would make Pein too much like Sasori for one thing, though I wouldn't discount the idea that Pein can conjure up a Nagato body.

[Lago AM3P]

Pein is Kishimoto's first attempt in the manga to give a serious villain any real attempt at subtlety in his evil from the beginning.

Zabuza was shown from the beginning as being a heartless murderer. Orochimaru was shown from the very beginning of being obsessed with power. Same for Madara and unfortunately Itachi.

That's the pattern Kishimoto always gives us. He portrays the antagonist as one or two dimensional and maybe gives them some sort of mitigating or redeeming factor for their cruelty at the end. Dosu might be another exception, but I doubt it. Kabuto might've been one but I think he's scuttled it.

Remember, no one in Akatsuki except for Pein has been shown to have any moral redeeming qualities whatsoever. They're all traitors and murderers of the worst sort who don't have anything but self interest in mind. When they die, there's no devil's advocate for them. Pein, OTOH, has been shown to have many redeeming qualities. He has improved the quality of life for the people in his village. He has ended the civil war. Pein wants to make life better for everyone else in his own way.

This is why I will be extremely disappointed if Madara ends up the final villain in this manga in the state that he's in. All he wants is personal power at any cost and it's not like almost every other villain in the manga wanted the same thing. Hell, we've already had two villains obsessed with obtaining better Sharingan powers.

What baffles me in the extreme is people who say that Pein is boring and emo but then throw their hopes behing Itachi and Madara. They are quite frankly the definition of repetitive and one-dimensional; without their pretty jutsus they would not rise above the status of Villain of the Week.
[hr]

Agree that Pein is Nagato. Disagree that Nagato's original body is safe somewhere else. Having a real body and six controlled bodies would make Pein too much like Sasori for one thing, though I wouldn't discount the idea that Pein can conjure up a Nagato body.

Kishimoto loves recycling concepts for his villains, it's a fact.

Pein recycles Orochimaru's big schtick, Madara recycles Itachi's motivation who recycled Orochimaru's motivation, Kabuto v2.0 is a recycling of Orochimaru again, Kisame is a recycling of Zabuza, Hidan is a recycling of Orochimaru's throwaway jutsu.

You might go as far as to say that Orochimaru is the only real original villain in this manga and Kishimoto is just improving on the original.

[Decorus]

Pein is a character straight out of Gundam Wing. I wanna create a war so terrible that no one will ever want to go to war again. That is nothing like Orochimaru. Orochimaru was all about learning every jutsu that exists or will ever exist. Madara's motivation is at this time unknown. Itachi's motivation was to kill Madara and replace him by getting EMS. We know next to nothing about Kisame other then he is one of the Seven Swordsman of the Mist like Zabuza. Hidan was nothing like Orochimaru since Hidan can't be killed, but might very well die of old age. Orochimaru swapped bodies to extend his lifespan in a fairly pathetic attempt at immortality.

So Kishimoto does not recycle villain concepts.

[samsiufan]

Not sure...He hasn't revealed much of himself except the fact that he has got a "god complex"...
.....He has got the potential to be the ultimate baddy....they say the psychos are usually the more dangerous ones....I must admit, I was amazed by some of his summons during the Jiraiya fight but was dissapointed with the only "clear and factual" jutsu they showed us about the rinnegan....I guess there is more to come.

[Lago AM3P]

I'm sorry, I should've been more clear.


Pein is a character straight out of Gundam Wing. I wanna create a war so terrible that no one will ever want to go to war again. That is nothing like Orochimaru. Orochimaru was all about learning every jutsu that exists or will ever exist.

Pein recycles Orochimaru's Edo Tensei with his shapeshifting jutsu; as in, he sacrifices some fodder and has some win ninja take the place of the fodder for the duration.


Madara's motivation is at this time unknown.

Madara's motivation is to use Sasuke (and possibly Itachi), to gain the ultimate powers of the Sharingan.

Orochimaru wanted to use Sasuke for Sharingan, too.


Itachi's motivation was to kill Madara and replace him by getting EMS.

Itachi wanted to take Madara's position as 'powerful legendary ninja' by using Sasuke's eyes for Sharingan.

Orochimaru wanted to be a powerful legendary ninja by using Sasuke's Sharingan.

Seriously, how can you not see a parallel here?


We know next to nothing about Kisame other then he is one of the Seven Swordsman of the Mist like Zabuza.

Kisame, like Zabuza, has been shown to be:

1) Merciless
2) Combat-loving
3) Close relationship with a younger, physically inferior but more powerful ninja.
4) Uses powerful water-element ninjutsu
5) Uses an oversized sword
6) Went against the lord of village for personal gain.

Kisame as it stands is an almost identical copy of Zabuza. Sorry.


Hidan was nothing like Orochimaru since Hidan can't be killed

Hidan works almost exactly like something summoned from Orochimaru's Edo Tensei jutsu (most notably, the indestructability), only instead of being able to do awesome things like perform high-ranked genjutsu and create large trees from nothing he gets to be the slowest-attacking member of Akatsuki and has one loser fail jutsu.


So Kishimoto does not recycle villain concepts.

But he does.

Itachi/Madara and Zabuza/Kisame are the most obvious copies but the villains in this manga resemble each other in more than just superficial motivations/techniques/designs.

[Decorus]

Well other then you are wrong.

1. Jutsu does not make him recycled. Pein is very different from Orochimaru.
2. Madara already has the ultimate powers of sharingan, so that can't be his motivation. So far the only motivation he seems to have is he wants Kyuubi back so he can take over the world. Orochimaru wanted to take over Sasuke's body so he could use sharingan to learn all the jutsu. Madara's motivations toward Sasuke are as of this moment unknown, but its likely he wants a new apprentice he can use to do his dirty work. Madara's Sharingan are equal to Sasuke's so its not a matter of using Sasuke to get his sharingan.

3. Itachi wanted to kill Madara, because he thinks Madara is a weak shell of his former being. Orochimaru doesn't give a damn about being the greatest ninja he just wants to know every technique that exists. He originally didn't care about sharingan at all given his experiments to create a new body using clones of the First Hokage Or his other choice before Sasuke who was Kimmero.

4. Kisame is not Combat loving, does not have a relationship with a younger physically weaker Ninja. Zabuza was weaker then Haku and Zabuza used Haku to fight most of his battles for him. Yes they both are from the Hidden Village of Mist so yeah lots of Water Element techniques. Hmm both use oversized swords could that have anything to do with them being members of the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist?
Zabuza tried to assasinate the village leader and take over, We have no idea why Kisame became a missing nin or joined the Akatsuki. As a matter of fact other then the name of his sword, his village name and his affliation with the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist we know nothing about him or his motivations.

Hidan is not a summoned undead former Hokage and has an attack that instantly kills whom ever fights him. Also the Edo Tensei jutsu does not create invulnerable zombies they get hurt and can be killed just the same as anyone else. So in short Hidan is nothing like Orochimaru.

Itachi uses his MS to prove his superiority over lesser beings is arrogant and is a lot like Byakuya from bleach. Madara is sarcastic clowns around and despite having MS and sharingan prefers to actually fight without even using them. Zabuza and Kisame are not copies of each other they share neither the same goals, art work or even the same ideals.

[Lago AM3P]

1. Jutsu does not make him recycled. Pein is very different from Orochimaru.

They are, I am just pointing out that Pein's signature jutsu is much more similar to Orochimaru's than the similarity of a Nagato puppeteer body to how Sasori fights.

Frankcie complained that a Nagato master body would be stepping on Sasori's schtick too much, I'm saying that Kishimoto has made much more conspicuous schtick infringements already.


2. Madara already has the ultimate powers of sharingan, so that can't be his motivation.

Don't you remember the panel how he was introduced?

He said straight up that he wanted the Sharingan's true power. Madara obviously wouldn't want something he already has, so he definitely wants to obtain another level of Sharingan.


So far the only motivation he seems to have is he wants Kyuubi back so he can take over the world.

If that's true, then Madara would've captured Naruto himself (unless he is for some reason unable to). Right now he seems much more interested with Sasuke than Naruto, whom he delegated the task of capturing.

Regardless, Madara hasn't said anything about wanting to get the Kyuubi, insofar that it's necessary for their already established plans. But getting the Kyuubi is a means to the 'dominate the world' end, not a goal in itself.


3. Itachi wanted to kill Madara, because he thinks Madara is a weak shell of his former being. Orochimaru doesn't give a damn about being the greatest ninja he just wants to know every technique that exists. He originally didn't care about sharingan at all given his experiments to create a new body using clones of the First Hokage Or his other choice before Sasuke who was Kimmero.

Regardless, all three of these characters' goals revolve around using Sasuke without his consent (in Itachi and Orochimaru's case, stealing his organs) and is the driving force for their most serious crimes. Orochimaru has squatters' rights, so I'm calling Itachi and Madara's motivations a recycling of his.


4. Kisame is not Combat loving,

The hell?

In Kisame's first meeting with Konoha ninja, he wanted to fight them over the express wishes of his partner.
Then he wanted to mutilate Naruto out of convenience.
Then after the timeskip he expressed great interest in fighting Maito Gai.


does not have a relationship with a younger physically weaker Ninja. Zabuza was weaker then Haku and Zabuza used Haku to fight most of his battles for him. Yes they both are from the Hidden Village of Mist so yeah lots of Water Element techniques.

???

Kisame is 10 years older than Itachi.

Furthermore, Kisame's relationship with Itachi humanizes him in a small way, the same way Zabuza's with Haku's did.


Hmm both use oversized swords could that have anything to do with them being members of the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist?

That only serves to highlight their similarities.


Zabuza tried to assasinate the village leader and take over, We have no idea why Kisame became a missing nin or joined the Akatsuki. As a matter of fact other then the name of his sword, his village name and his affliation with the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist we know nothing about him or his motivations.

What?

Asuma said during Kisame's initial appearance that the reason why he was in the bingo book was for assaulting the lord of his country.


Hidan is not a summoned undead former Hokage and has an attack that instantly kills whom ever fights him. Also the Edo Tensei jutsu does not create invulnerable zombies they get hurt and can be killed just the same as anyone else. So in short Hidan is nothing like Orochimaru.

No, he's not, but a lot of properties of his 'uniqueness' revolves around Orochimaru's Edo Tensei, such as the undeath and the ability to survive an incredible amount of punish.

In other words, except for the voodoo doll thing, Hidan is a throwaway copy of Orochimaru's signature jutsu.


Itachi uses his MS to prove his superiority over lesser beings is arrogant and is a lot like Byakuya from bleach. Madara is sarcastic clowns around and despite having MS and sharingan prefers to actually fight without even using them.

Until we get more evidence, Tobi is just an alter-ego of Madara. Madara has shown the same arrogance, disregard for the lives of his kinsmen, and manipulativeness that defines Itachi. They differ on some levels, such as Itachi being more reserved, but their personalities are more similar than different.

Even more damning, Itachi and Madara's purpose in the story are extremely similar. They are both driving Sasuke towards his goal of 'avenger' and planning to manipulate his hatred and growth for their own ends. In fact, that's just another similarity to Orochimaru whom I remind you was here first.


Zabuza and Kisame are not copies of each other they share neither the same goals, art work or even the same ideals.

Yeah. That definitely doesn't make Kisame a copy of Zabuza! The artwork is different.

[Decorus]

He has EMS what he is missing is Kyuubi. He can't have Kyuubi until he can attempt to extract it from Naruto. He can't extract it from Naruto using Pein's sealing method without all the other Bijou or attempting to do so will be bad.


Orochimaru's signature jutsu is summoning or transforming his body into snakes, he used the Edo Tensei all of once and was willing to use it again to get Tsunade to fix his arms. Making Zombie Ninjas is not his primary form of attack.

If you want to talk copies Naruto and Pein are carbon copies of each other from opposing viewpoints. They both use multiple bodies to attack and defend in a coordinated method. Pein is impossible to kill, while Naruto just automaticly replaces his fallen Kage Bunshin with more. Similar appearance, both wish to rule and protect thier village. Both were trained by Jiraiya, both have female partners, both rely primarily on physical combat, and both have experienced a lot of pain in thier lifetime.

[Kusachu]

Since the following theory addresses Pein, I do believe this thread would be most appropriate. ^__^


http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8910/03pf5.th.jpg (http://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?image=03pf5.jpg)http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/7384/04tr9.th.jpg (http://img250.imageshack.us/my.php?image=04tr9.jpg)

Whenever the power of bijuu is sealed into something, that power is compressed and it becomes possible for it to be directed. As Chiyo points out, however, that power still cannot be controlled. Pein intends to collect the power of bijuu and harness their power to fuel his kinjutsu which he will distribute amongst the warring nations to incite war and make them even bigger as he goes about continuing his plans for Akatsuki to take control of the world so the wars will cease and desist.

We still don't know though how Pein intends on controlling that power. One method to controlling that power was by sealing the bijuu into a human, hence the term "jinchuuriki" came about. We know for a fact that kekkei-genkais can manipulate the power of bijuu as well.


http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/7315/09br2.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09br2.jpg)http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5333/0405ge4.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0405ge4.jpg)

Madara's current priority is to restore the sharingan as well as himself to full-power. I'm going to go out on a limb here when I state the sharingan's true-power is control over bijuu, specifically over the Kyuubi's power. Madara knocked out the Sanbi and Madara summoned Kyuubi before in the past; furthermore, we can see symbols here as shown in the first chapter as shown here. And with the fact that Madara is 100+ years old, it means he has artificially lengthened his lifespan just how Kakuzu did by stealing hearts. He could be a body-hopper like Oro, and Madara intends to take the keenest sharingan of all for himself, Sasuke's eyeballs.

Pein probably needs Madara's help controlling the power of bijuu. To put it simply, the bijuu statue is a "nuclear reactor" and the sharingan acts as a "cooling rod" to keep things from going critical.

Since Sasori left Suna over twenty years ago and Oro probably joined a couple of years before he fled Konoha (like Itachi), I figure a good estimate for when Akatsuki would have been created would have been about twenty-five years ago. This would make Pein about roughly 20 at the time.

It's very well possible that Pein is the one who arranged for Oro to resurrect the Shodai's ability.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/MISC%20Manga%20Pages/16-1.jpg

Yamato would have received the Shodai's ability over twenty-years ago, which would fit into my estimate that Akatsuki's creation was about 25 years prior. Unfortunately, Oro got busted experimenting on people and never knew that Yamato survived. Out of luck, Pein researched other means to control the power of bijuu.

I figure Madara came across Akatsuki after the Kyuubi attack. He learned about Akatsuki just as Jiraiya did since they both kept tabs on Oro after he left. Madara eventually tracks down Pein, the two have a conversation, and Madara makes Pein an offer: He can solve Pein's dilemma if he can help him retrieve Kyuubi (and the other bijuu to boot) that the Yondaime hijacked and sealed into his own son. Pein accepts the offer, but makes up a lie that Kyuubi has to be sealed last, which gives him ample time so he can complete his own objective before Madara can backstab him. At the time as well, Madara keeping Pein informed on what went on in Konoha and other places would prove useful as well.

It's also possible that Pein was the one who orchestrated Oro's attempt to possess Itachi so he wouldn't have to contend with Madara screwing him some how.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/MISC%20Manga%20Pages/page-08.jpg


I do believe Pein and Madara will betray each other before this series ends. Pein has to put up with Madara's current ploys because he's the only guy who can solve the current dilemma of manipulating the power of bijuu. Considering the ever-increasing important of the Shodai's character, comments made towards Naruto when he went KN4, and what completing "that jutsu" requires, Pein will take an interest in Naruto outside of Kyuubi because he will realize he can use Naruto (somehow) to manipulate the power of bijuu, hence he'll have no longer use for Madara and will attempt to dispose of him.

The reason betrayal may very well happen within Akatsuk is because if it's one thing we've seen over and over again in this series, the concept of betrayal is ever present:

- Gatou: Tried to pull a fast one on Zabuza.
- Orochimaru: Betrayed Konoha and set Suna up by killing the Yondaime Kazekage.
- Itachi: Betrayed Konoha and killed the Uchiha Clan.
- Madara: Betrayed Konoha for reasons which have yet to be disclosed.
- Sasuke: Betrayed Konoha and attempted to kill Naruto before he betrayed Oro and killed him.

Betrayal seems rather rampant for Sasuke and his counterparts. We are talking about one individual who believes himself to be a god, and you can count on Madara to have a super ego as well. It is also important to keep in mind that Pein has several connections to one of Naruto's counterparts, the Shodai Hogake. Shodai wasn't a fan of war, wished for peace, was a village leader, and personally knew Madara. Pein shares these traits as well. And we all know Shodai and Madara had a fall-out with each other which resulted in VotE.

It is also important to note how Pein references Madara. Etiquette is a big deal in Japan. Pein addressed Jiraiya as Jiraiya-sensei and praised his sensei's strength despite the fact he killed him. When Pein referenced his "boss" (Madara), he did not do so by proper title or by adding a suffix addressing respect (-san, -sama, -sensei, and -sempai all demonstrate respect). It is evident that Pein does not like Madara and does not think too highly of him. "God" would probably like to be rid of the "devil" if possible.

Anyway, back to my theory now...Pein will attempt to betray Madara when he realizes something about Naruto: Naruto can control Kyuubi's power, and in theory, expand upon it to control the power of lesser bijuu.

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/2225/11qm1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Completing "that jutsu" requires Naruto to master the Kyuubi's power. The key to Naruto surpassing the Yondaime Hogake lies within Kyuubi. Learning to masterfully wield his bijuu will allow him to complete Yondaime's two supermoves (FRS and "that jutsu) while allowing him to defeat an opponent not even Yondaime could defeat (Pein).

The reason why Naruto will eventually obtain this ability is because of his unique chakra.


http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/420/truestrengthce2yf5.th.png (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=truestrengthce2yf5.png)http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2883/mysterysz8yl1.th.png (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mysterysz8yl1.png)

We know Shodai could bend the power of bijuu to his will via Mokuton Ninjutsu, which turns chakra into a source of life. We know Madara could summon Kyuubi and we've seen Sasuke suppress Kyuubi's power because of the "wickedness" of their chakra. Naruto's chakra is unique and what properties it possesses is currently unknown.

It isn't sheer coincidence that Pein is now missing a body that needs replaced (kuchiyose). It is unlikely that Pein's assimilation ability though allows him to preserve the properties of the person he incorporates into himself. Why? Because the person's physical appearance is greatly altered with the inclusion of the Rinnegan. It's unlikely that unique abilities like kekkei-genkais are preserved with Pein's assimilation method.

There is a form of immortality though that allows a person to preserve a body's unique ability: Fushi Tensei. Akatsuki has shown itself to be interested in learning the secrets behind Oro's technique.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3677/03cz4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The reason why Kabuto was sent to Oro, besides keeping tabs on him, was to obtain the secrets behind Fushi Tensei. Why? Sasori did ask Kabuto to study up on the kinjutsu, but is the reason why such an interest something Sasori was curious about, or did Sasori send Kabuto to spy on Orochimaru on somebody's orders?

I don't think it's sheer coincidence that Kishimoto has had Kabuto implant Oro's remains into himself.


http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7941/02na6.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02na6.jpg)

Kabuto is now undergoing a transformation which will give him a body akin to what Oro possessed. Kabuto also plans to attack Naruto as soon as matters concerning Sasuke are dealt with. It may very well be possible that Kabuto could end up as the final villain, but then again, it's unlikely since Kabuto will eventually evolve into the villain Oro could never be (a villain who doesn't flee from the main character, holds a special interest in the main character, and plans to attack the main character). Since Kabuto will eventually become a rehash of Oro though, it's unlikely he'll be sticking around until the end of the manga. (Major villains in shounen typically aren't amongst the final villains.)

If Kabuto is killed and Akatsuki gets its hands on Kabuto's carcass, then the secrets behind Fushi Tensei could be unraveled and allow an individual like Pein to copy the technique and develop a variation of it. It wouldn't be a hard task for the man who is a relative of the person who invented ninjutsu itself.

Keep in mind we haven't had an explanation on how Pein incorporates shinobi into the entity known as "Pein". Like Oro, it is very well possible that Kishimoto will parallel (to a certain degree) on what occured between Orochimaru and Sasuke when Oro attempted to possess Sasuke for his Sharingan. By applying properties of Fushi Tensei to how Pein's own method of "immortality" works, it would allow him to preserve the special properties of select individuals.

I would also like to add how the Rinnegan was described by Jiraiya.


It was cooled a tool of Heaven itself...A tool of God that would bring salvation to the world when the world was in chaos or become a weapon that would destroy all creation and return everything to dust.

Now let's add in the prophecy the Frog Sage had of the "destined child".


This pupil will become the harbringer of a great revolution in the world of ninja. He will will finally bring peace to the world or utterly destroy it...The result of his revolution will be one or the other.

Rinnegan's description coincides with the prophecy: A child will bring salvation or destruction to the world. Jiraiya's decision has made Naruto the harbringer of this revolution, yet how will Naruto bring destruction to the world? Naruto does have to contend with becoming devoured by Kyuubi, a side he has yet to conquer, but could it be something else? An additional plausible scenario is what will happen if Naruto loses to Pein. Not only will Pein acquire Kyuubi, but Pein will acquire a means to control Kyuubi (Naruto). Thus, "Naruto" will bring destruction to the world.

To put it simply, Pein will attempt a jutsu on Naruto in order to take control of his body in order to obtain possession of Naruto's future Kyuubi control. Pein ought to be able to expand upon this ability and control the power of lesser bijuu since we know Madara possesses Kyuubi control and he had knocked out the Sanbi in addition to Kyuubi possessing the strongest chakra out of all nine demons. Naruto will give Pein a counter to Madara and ensure that Madara cannot pull a fast one on Pein. Acquiring Naruto's body will also give Pein the final motivation he needs to remove Madara from the equation since it is very well possible that Madara will backstab Pein since Pein's usefulness will probably expire after Kyuubi is captured and sealed.

Thoughts?

Damn dude. Very well researched! I see and agree with a lot of your points too. :D An in-depth critique of this theory will no doubt take a couple more read-throughs and quite a bit of thought!

I think I'm going to quote this in the first post too, so there will be an easy access link to it for anyone who might like to discuss it further in the future (even though this thread has been relatively dead for a while...)

I need to go about making some updates to it anyways sometime soon. My first post is a bit dated now...XP

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

Anything goes in a fight, wether its a kinjutsu or multiple bodies, its a matter of how u use them. PEIN-SAMA fights to whatever extend untill he kills his enemies.
[hr]
And Btw PEIN-SAMA cant be compared with Naruto, its like konohamaru and Madara

[lazyboyrod]

Anything goes in a fight, wether its a kinjutsu or multiple bodies, its a matter of how u use them. PEIN-SAMA fights to whatever extend untill he kills his enemies.

What's kinjutsu, and what would you say if I said I hate Pein, or that he will die eventually die by the hands of Naruto?

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

Simple, i just say i hate u too, cuz to me PEIN-SAMA is nearly everything

[Franckie]

What's kinjutsu, and what would you say if I said I hate Pein, or that he will die eventually die by the hands of Naruto?

Kinjutsu = Forbidden technique. Those jutsu from the three main categories which have been declared forbidden because of the toll it places on the ninja, or the evil nature of the technique used.

Examples:

Edo Tensei
Tajuu Kage Bushin no Jutsu
Fushi Tensei
Souzou Saisei
Shiki Fuujin

[Alexis]

Tajuu Kage Bushin no Jutsu
Seems Naruto and Kakashi don't care about Konoha's laws. :D

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1228/naruto3310wh5.jpg

[TheChosenOne]

Neither does Gai or Lee reckoning the 8 Gates Technique. :kkthumbs

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Kinjutsu = Forbidden technique. Those jutsu from the three main categories which have been declared forbidden because of the toll it places on the ninja, or the evil nature of the technique used.

Examples:

Edo Tensei
Tajuu Kage Bushin no Jutsu
Fushi Tensei
Souzou Saisei
Shiki Fuujin

And FRS

[EvilGenious]

I used to really like Pein, until I found out that he was just a lackey for Madara....since then, he has dropped a few rungs on my Akatsuki favorites ladder... *sigh*

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

I used to really like Pein, until I found out that he was just a lackey for Madara....since then, he has dropped a few rungs on my Akatsuki favorites ladder... *sigh*

There is no way that Pein is Madara's toy.

[Zeus-Tails]

People honestly think a man who is arrogant enough to call himself a "God" would take be the lackey of someone else?

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

If PEIN-SAMA was madara's toy, he woudnt have his own goal with the bijuus which exactly against madara's plans, unlike the other members, and also he woudnt just call him madara with no respect.

[DouVerdugo]

I love Pain! He's a pretty awesome villain and I find him to be very interesting. I can't wait to find out his true identity. :)

[Alexis]

If PEIN-SAMA was madara's toy, he woudnt have his own goal with the bijuus which exactly against madara's plans, unlike the other members, and also he woudnt just call him madara with no respect.
It hasn't been stated anywhere that gathering the bijuu's is Pain's own goal.
Akatsuki was created by Madara and he also ordered Pain and the others to get the remaining jinchuuriki, so it's likely his own plan or part of it, and not going against it. Whether Pain is his partner or just his pawn or whatever remains to be seen.

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

It hasn't been stated anywhere that gathering the bijuu's is Pain's own goal.
Akatsuki was created by Madara and he also ordered Pain and the others to get the remaining jinchuuriki, so it's likely his own plan or part of it, and not going against it. Whether Pain is his partner or just his pawn or whatever remains to be seen.

yes but he stated to jiraiya that his goal was to use the bijuus to make a kinjutsu while madara wants them to strengthen his sharingan to an advanced level, PEIN-SAMA also stated that HE wants to make the kinjutsu for himself to do whatever he wants, not for madara.

[lazyboyrod]

If PEIN-SAMA was madara's toy, he woudnt have his own goal with the bijuus which exactly against madara's plans, unlike the other members, and also he woudnt just call him madara with no respect.

So what exactly are Madara's plans
Huh?
What?
EXACTLY, you don't know, nobody knows right now, it hasn't been stated, for all we know Madara prolly has the same goals as Pein.

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

Madara states that soon the true power of his sharingan will awaken, using the bijuus.

PEIN-SAMA states that he will use the bijuus to create the strongest weapon/jutsu ever

[Zeus-Tails]

I hope everyone understands that Madara wasn't exactly ordering Pein. Seriously, why would a guy, who has never lost a battle and considers himself a God, take orders from someone else?

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

Like i said PEIN-SAMA never respected madara when he was talking to him. he not scared of him, nor is he weaker than him, also when madara talks to him, he speaks in madara mode and with respect

[lazyboyrod]

Why the hell do you call him Pein-SAMA he's a fictional character of Kishimoto's imagination, I think your getting a lil carried away, and anyway we all know that sooner or later he will die, no matter how cool he is.

[Franckie]

It hasn't been stated anywhere that gathering the bijuu's is Pain's own goal.

Gathering bijuu is Pein's goal. He's the only person in this entire series who has touched upon the usage of all nine: Creating the ultimate kinjutsu.


Akatsuki was created by Madara and he also ordered Pain and the others to get the remaining jinchuuriki, so it's likely his own plan or part of it, and not going against it. Whether Pain is his partner or just his pawn or whatever remains to be seen.

Pein has been the driving force behind the Akatsuki plotline, and the reason Pein joined Akatsuki is most likely to gather the bijuu. Pein allies himself with Madara just as the other members allied themselves to Pein: Accomplishing Akatsuki's objectives will further their own personal goals. Akatsuki is a means to an end for both Pein and Madara.


I hope everyone understands that Madara wasn't exactly ordering Pein. Seriously, why would a guy, who has never lost a battle and considers himself a God, take orders from someone else?

Pein takes orders from Madara. That was clearly established in chapter 383. Hierarchy though can't be used to justify Madara > Pein because of the parties involved.

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

well said Franckie, though i didnt like the last paragraph about PEIN-SAMA taking orders from madara.

lazyboyrod, PEIN-SAMA is my most favourite character or whatever in all anime/manga/films/movies whatever there is, and hes not to die easily by the hands of naruto or others, unless kishi destroys him like other akatsukis which highly dougted.

And yes PEIN-SAMA is more than just a character in a manga to me.

[ANBU4U]

he killed jiraiya and cheats using six bodies

i dont like him

Naruto's Better?

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

lol ANBU4U, Naruto's better?

Only that naruto can only wish he had six bodies like PEIN-SAMA

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Pein takes orders from Madara. That was clearly established in chapter 383. Hierarchy though can't be used to justify Madara > Pein because of the parties involved.

True that Madara ordered Pein to capture the Kyuubi. BUT I dont think Pein respects him. He has different goals and he calls himself a GOD, not Madara. If he was totally devoted and he was scared of Madara, he could call Madara a God and not himself.

[lordHokage]

Since the following theory addresses Pein, I do believe this thread would be most appropriate. ^__^


http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8910/03pf5.th.jpg (http://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?image=03pf5.jpg)http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/7384/04tr9.th.jpg (http://img250.imageshack.us/my.php?image=04tr9.jpg)

Whenever the power of bijuu is sealed into something, that power is compressed and it becomes possible for it to be directed. As Chiyo points out, however, that power still cannot be controlled. Pein intends to collect the power of bijuu and harness their power to fuel his kinjutsu which he will distribute amongst the warring nations to incite war and make them even bigger as he goes about continuing his plans for Akatsuki to take control of the world so the wars will cease and desist.

We still don't know though how Pein intends on controlling that power. One method to controlling that power was by sealing the bijuu into a human, hence the term "jinchuuriki" came about. We know for a fact that kekkei-genkais can manipulate the power of bijuu as well.


http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/7315/09br2.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09br2.jpg)http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5333/0405ge4.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0405ge4.jpg)

Madara's current priority is to restore the sharingan as well as himself to full-power. I'm going to go out on a limb here when I state the sharingan's true-power is control over bijuu, specifically over the Kyuubi's power. Madara knocked out the Sanbi and Madara summoned Kyuubi before in the past; furthermore, we can see symbols here as shown in the first chapter as shown here. And with the fact that Madara is 100+ years old, it means he has artificially lengthened his lifespan just how Kakuzu did by stealing hearts. He could be a body-hopper like Oro, and Madara intends to take the keenest sharingan of all for himself, Sasuke's eyeballs.

Pein probably needs Madara's help controlling the power of bijuu. To put it simply, the bijuu statue is a "nuclear reactor" and the sharingan acts as a "cooling rod" to keep things from going critical.

Since Sasori left Suna over twenty years ago and Oro probably joined a couple of years before he fled Konoha (like Itachi), I figure a good estimate for when Akatsuki would have been created would have been about twenty-five years ago. This would make Pein about roughly 20 at the time.

It's very well possible that Pein is the one who arranged for Oro to resurrect the Shodai's ability.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/MISC%20Manga%20Pages/16-1.jpg

Yamato would have received the Shodai's ability over twenty-years ago, which would fit into my estimate that Akatsuki's creation was about 25 years prior. Unfortunately, Oro got busted experimenting on people and never knew that Yamato survived. Out of luck, Pein researched other means to control the power of bijuu.

I figure Madara came across Akatsuki after the Kyuubi attack. He learned about Akatsuki just as Jiraiya did since they both kept tabs on Oro after he left. Madara eventually tracks down Pein, the two have a conversation, and Madara makes Pein an offer: He can solve Pein's dilemma if he can help him retrieve Kyuubi (and the other bijuu to boot) that the Yondaime hijacked and sealed into his own son. Pein accepts the offer, but makes up a lie that Kyuubi has to be sealed last, which gives him ample time so he can complete his own objective before Madara can backstab him. At the time as well, Madara keeping Pein informed on what went on in Konoha and other places would prove useful as well.

It's also possible that Pein was the one who orchestrated Oro's attempt to possess Itachi so he wouldn't have to contend with Madara screwing him some how.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/MISC%20Manga%20Pages/page-08.jpg


I do believe Pein and Madara will betray each other before this series ends. Pein has to put up with Madara's current ploys because he's the only guy who can solve the current dilemma of manipulating the power of bijuu. Considering the ever-increasing important of the Shodai's character, comments made towards Naruto when he went KN4, and what completing "that jutsu" requires, Pein will take an interest in Naruto outside of Kyuubi because he will realize he can use Naruto (somehow) to manipulate the power of bijuu, hence he'll have no longer use for Madara and will attempt to dispose of him.

The reason betrayal may very well happen within Akatsuk is because if it's one thing we've seen over and over again in this series, the concept of betrayal is ever present:

- Gatou: Tried to pull a fast one on Zabuza.
- Orochimaru: Betrayed Konoha and set Suna up by killing the Yondaime Kazekage.
- Itachi: Betrayed Konoha and killed the Uchiha Clan.
- Madara: Betrayed Konoha for reasons which have yet to be disclosed.
- Sasuke: Betrayed Konoha and attempted to kill Naruto before he betrayed Oro and killed him.

Betrayal seems rather rampant for Sasuke and his counterparts. We are talking about one individual who believes himself to be a god, and you can count on Madara to have a super ego as well. It is also important to keep in mind that Pein has several connections to one of Naruto's counterparts, the Shodai Hogake. Shodai wasn't a fan of war, wished for peace, was a village leader, and personally knew Madara. Pein shares these traits as well. And we all know Shodai and Madara had a fall-out with each other which resulted in VotE.

It is also important to note how Pein references Madara. Etiquette is a big deal in Japan. Pein addressed Jiraiya as Jiraiya-sensei and praised his sensei's strength despite the fact he killed him. When Pein referenced his "boss" (Madara), he did not do so by proper title or by adding a suffix addressing respect (-san, -sama, -sensei, and -sempai all demonstrate respect). It is evident that Pein does not like Madara and does not think too highly of him. "God" would probably like to be rid of the "devil" if possible.

Anyway, back to my theory now...Pein will attempt to betray Madara when he realizes something about Naruto: Naruto can control Kyuubi's power, and in theory, expand upon it to control the power of lesser bijuu.

http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/2225/11qm1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Completing "that jutsu" requires Naruto to master the Kyuubi's power. The key to Naruto surpassing the Yondaime Hogake lies within Kyuubi. Learning to masterfully wield his bijuu will allow him to complete Yondaime's two supermoves (FRS and "that jutsu) while allowing him to defeat an opponent not even Yondaime could defeat (Pein).

The reason why Naruto will eventually obtain this ability is because of his unique chakra.


http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/420/truestrengthce2yf5.th.png (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=truestrengthce2yf5.png)http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2883/mysterysz8yl1.th.png (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mysterysz8yl1.png)

We know Shodai could bend the power of bijuu to his will via Mokuton Ninjutsu, which turns chakra into a source of life. We know Madara could summon Kyuubi and we've seen Sasuke suppress Kyuubi's power because of the "wickedness" of their chakra. Naruto's chakra is unique and what properties it possesses is currently unknown.

It isn't sheer coincidence that Pein is now missing a body that needs replaced (kuchiyose). It is unlikely that Pein's assimilation ability though allows him to preserve the properties of the person he incorporates into himself. Why? Because the person's physical appearance is greatly altered with the inclusion of the Rinnegan. It's unlikely that unique abilities like kekkei-genkais are preserved with Pein's assimilation method.

There is a form of immortality though that allows a person to preserve a body's unique ability: Fushi Tensei. Akatsuki has shown itself to be interested in learning the secrets behind Oro's technique.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3677/03cz4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The reason why Kabuto was sent to Oro, besides keeping tabs on him, was to obtain the secrets behind Fushi Tensei. Why? Sasori did ask Kabuto to study up on the kinjutsu, but is the reason why such an interest something Sasori was curious about, or did Sasori send Kabuto to spy on Orochimaru on somebody's orders?

I don't think it's sheer coincidence that Kishimoto has had Kabuto implant Oro's remains into himself.


http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7941/02na6.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02na6.jpg)

Kabuto is now undergoing a transformation which will give him a body akin to what Oro possessed. Kabuto also plans to attack Naruto as soon as matters concerning Sasuke are dealt with. It may very well be possible that Kabuto could end up as the final villain, but then again, it's unlikely since Kabuto will eventually evolve into the villain Oro could never be (a villain who doesn't flee from the main character, holds a special interest in the main character, and plans to attack the main character). Since Kabuto will eventually become a rehash of Oro though, it's unlikely he'll be sticking around until the end of the manga. (Major villains in shounen typically aren't amongst the final villains.)

If Kabuto is killed and Akatsuki gets its hands on Kabuto's carcass, then the secrets behind Fushi Tensei could be unraveled and allow an individual like Pein to copy the technique and develop a variation of it. It wouldn't be a hard task for the man who is a relative of the person who invented ninjutsu itself.

Keep in mind we haven't had an explanation on how Pein incorporates shinobi into the entity known as "Pein". Like Oro, it is very well possible that Kishimoto will parallel (to a certain degree) on what occured between Orochimaru and Sasuke when Oro attempted to possess Sasuke for his Sharingan. By applying properties of Fushi Tensei to how Pein's own method of "immortality" works, it would allow him to preserve the special properties of select individuals.

I would also like to add how the Rinnegan was described by Jiraiya.


It was cooled a tool of Heaven itself...A tool of God that would bring salvation to the world when the world was in chaos or become a weapon that would destroy all creation and return everything to dust.

Now let's add in the prophecy the Frog Sage had of the "destined child".


This pupil will become the harbringer of a great revolution in the world of ninja. He will will finally bring peace to the world or utterly destroy it...The result of his revolution will be one or the other.

Rinnegan's description coincides with the prophecy: A child will bring salvation or destruction to the world. Jiraiya's decision has made Naruto the harbringer of this revolution, yet how will Naruto bring destruction to the world? Naruto does have to contend with becoming devoured by Kyuubi, a side he has yet to conquer, but could it be something else? An additional plausible scenario is what will happen if Naruto loses to Pein. Not only will Pein acquire Kyuubi, but Pein will acquire a means to control Kyuubi (Naruto). Thus, "Naruto" will bring destruction to the world.

To put it simply, Pein will attempt a jutsu on Naruto in order to take control of his body in order to obtain possession of Naruto's future Kyuubi control. Pein ought to be able to expand upon this ability and control the power of lesser bijuu since we know Madara possesses Kyuubi control and he had knocked out the Sanbi in addition to Kyuubi possessing the strongest chakra out of all nine demons. Naruto will give Pein a counter to Madara and ensure that Madara cannot pull a fast one on Pein. Acquiring Naruto's body will also give Pein the final motivation he needs to remove Madara from the equation since it is very well possible that Madara will backstab Pein since Pein's usefulness will probably expire after Kyuubi is captured and sealed.

Thoughts?

Wow, Franckie, you said a mouth full, well said. :kkthumbs

In every evil organization, the hierarchies always betray each other. Since both Pein and Naruto have some much in common, I wouldn’t be surprise if Pein becomes Naruto's newest sensei. :blink

[lazyboyrod]

Wow, Franckie, you said a mouth full, well said. :kkthumbs

In every evil organization, the hierarchies always betray each other. Since both Pein and Naruto have some much in common, I wouldn’t be surprise if Pein becomes Naruto's newest sensei. :blink

Oh no that would be unaccceptable, how could Naruto possibly sit there and learn from the person that killed jiraiya, that would be so super lame!

[Decorus]

Pein had nothing to do with Orochimaru's experiments to create a First Hokage Clone. Orochimaru wanted to get himself a body he could step into with an extremely powerful Bloodline Limit ability. Cloning the First then body snatching it or geneticly modifying his own body to have Mokuton was Orochimaru's own idea. I'm guessing his experiments were the first in a LONG LINE of planned Genetic engineering Bloodline limits to create artifical Bloodline limits to integrate into his own genetic code.

They failed or at least he believed they failed so he moved on to trying to posses the body of Itachi, which he failed to posses so he moved on to Kimmero to get his Bone Manipulation, but Kimmero caught some super disease so then he switched to Sasuke.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Pein had nothing to do with Orochimaru's experiments to create a First Hokage Clone. Orochimaru wanted to get himself a body he could step into with an extremely powerful Bloodline Limit ability. Cloning the First then body snatching it or geneticly modifying his own body to have Mokuton was Orochimaru's own idea. I'm guessing his experiments were the first in a LONG LINE of planned Genetic engineering Bloodline limits to create artifical Bloodline limits to integrate into his own genetic code.

They failed or at least he believed they failed so he moved on to trying to posses the body of Itachi, which he failed to posses so he moved on to Kimmero to get his Bone Manipulation, but Kimmero caught some super disease so then he switched to Sasuke.

Which he failed yet again and now look where he has ended up. This time, he wont escape.

[lordHokage]

Oh no that would be unaccceptable, how could Naruto possibly sit there and learn from the person that killed jiraiya, that would be so super lame!


I don't think Pein's identity is the real deal. It’s very possible for Naruto to be train by unknown character that neither he nor Granny Tsunade knows very little about. Pervy Sage knows Pein's secret identity but Granny Tsunade doesn't know all of his friends and foes. :blink

[Hiking_Bear]

The secret message about Pain that Jiraiya wrote on Pa toad's back is...

Unscramble the letters of

"A toad anagram"

and what do you get?

"Nagato Madara"

[Alex_1]

Pain and the Rinnegan are still such a mystery. nagato's still a major mystery. We never actually saw how he killed that ninja when he activated the Rinnegan.... and the deal with his rain jutsu.

Actaully.. that's what I've been thinking more about. When Madara ordered him to hunt the demon fox/Naruto, the rain started. Jiraiya infiltrated, Pain detected dangerous chakra, and made it stop. The lowlevel ninjas mentioned the rain as well - it's a sign that Pain uses. But exactly what does it mean?

Nagato as a child mentioned that he blacked out before killing that other ninja. Granted that can happen normal in real life when some people become overwhelmed. But maybe whatever it is that blacked him out then, is controlling him? Like - he's trapped in darkness too? I dunno... but the Pain mystery's a doozie.

[Kusachu]

The secret message about Pain that Jiraiya wrote on Pa toad's back is...

Unscramble the letters of

"A toad anagram"

and what do you get?

"Nagato Madara"

:rofl!! :D:eyeroll

And now:

I remember why I love Pein.
http://fc08.deviantart.com/fs29/f/2008/089/6/d/By_Lily__Pain_by_slyriddle.jpg
That. Is. So. F*cking. Hot. Visit this artist's deviantart here: http://slyriddle.deviantart.com/
[hr]
And I can't forget Dosu's awesome Pein, which is just the coolest ever. XD
http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs17/f/2007/201/f/6/Pein__s_Goin___to_South_Park_by_Dosu.png
[hr]
This one was nice too:
http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs20/i/2007/279/0/9/Blood_Pein_by_Illusionator.jpg
That one's by Illusionator: http://illusionator.deviantart.com/

[DarkManSharingan32]

The secret message about Pain that Jiraiya wrote on Pa toad's back is...

Unscramble the letters of

"A toad anagram"

and what do you get?

"Nagato Madara"

In english... yeah.

In Japanese... hell no.

lol

[Kusachu]

This one's nice and gets extra credit for nakedness:

http://fc08.deviantart.com/fs19/f/2007/288/2/d/Pein___Divine_Judgement_by_Emo_Insomniac.jpg
By Emo-Insomniac: http://emo-insomniac.deviantart.com/
[hr]
Oh this is very cute:
http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs20/i/2007/272/a/3/Pein_Paper_Doll_by_Malindachan.jpg
by: http://malindachan.deviantart.com/
[hr]
This one is VERY nice!!

http://fc06.deviantart.com/fs28/i/2008/045/5/0/Konan_and_Pein___Gods_by_TomasLacerda.jpg
by:http://tomaslacerda.deviantart.com/
[hr]

In english... yeah.

In Japanese... hell no.

lol

Aw, come on DMS, you gotta admit that was a clever anagram at least. Good for a chuckle at the very least. :D

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

OMG Naruto is getting sooo BORING, espescially the whole sasuke getting the freaking strongest in the world thing, if only PEIN-SAMA wasnt in it, watching Naruto woudve been over for me

[DarkManSharingan32]

Let me say this...
If Pein dies, the Rain Village will spin in to utter chaos.

It may be that Pein lives... gets Naruto-fied, and allies with Konoha.
---

If Naruto can fight back Kyuubix1999 first.

[patedecarne]

At least to me, I can see some contradictions about Pain and Tobi's goals: Pain wants ot join all the Bijuus to build a powerful monster, but, by doing this, won't it take the kyuubi's essence forever?

And Tobi wants Kyuubi too, but for unknows reasons; I believe that just one of the two objectives can be achieve, because if Tobi could take Kyuubi, then Pain won't be able to do anything else with it; and the same goes for Tobi, if Pain takes Kyuubi

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

And in the End its well clear who wins, PEIN-SAMA

[ibblows]

I like him if he is actually the strongers in the akatsuki(could take madara).

If he thinks he is godlike, but madara could beat him, then he is a poser and deserves no respect.

[DarkManSharingan32]

I like him if he is actually the strongers in the akatsuki(could take madara).

If he thinks he is godlike, but madara could beat him, then he is a poser and deserves no respect.

Well, he killed Jiraiya.
Thats got to get him something...

[Decorus]

I think killing Jiraiya is likely to earn Pein an Education into what real power is.

[DarkManSharingan32]

I think killing Jiraiya is likely to earn Pein an Education into what real power is.

Of course.
The poor sap is a villain... they always have it "wrong".

But I'm still not going to say he will die because of it.

[Decorus]

I'm pretty sure he will either undergo Naruto's Happy Happy Joy Joy Genjutsu or get pasted by a 9 tailed Kyuubi either option works for me.

(If only Naruto's Happy Happy Joy Joy Genjutsu hadn't reduced Kabuto to a raving lunatic...)

[zelllogan]

the basic behind Pein is great: the other disciple. But he had to have dojutsu, he had to have something better than kage bunshin. And for his first battle, it was made clear that he was worthless without his dojutsu. The only reason he won is because it's 6 vs 1. Pein is just a fool lost in the middle of all that uchiwa crap. I don't even care what will happen to him.

[DutchPhoenix]

what is it? o0


Merged threads.

[Askia32]

what is it? o0

Tsunade's ex or Tsunade's little brother. You heard it from me first. Remember that!

[Franckie]

what is it? o0

Nagato's mind distributed through six bodies.

[lordHokage]

Tsunade's ex or Tsunade's little brother. You heard it from me first. Remember that!


Well, since Granny Tsunade little brother look a lot like Naruto, he could be Pein but I am not to sure about Dan. :blink

[lazyboyrod]

Yeah, Tsunade's dead brother just aquired the rinnegan out of nowhere.

[Forever_Melody]

Just for the sake/fun of throwing an idea out there...

What if the 6 Peins weren't one mind but a collective of minds? They are one entity as a collective but still retain themselves as 6 people. They join themselves through Rin'negan to form the identity known as "Pein".

The reason I pose this is because we saw Pein talking to himself across his 6 bodies on more than one occasion. If it was simply the same mind in all bodies, why bother telling stuff verbally between the bodies? (obviously except for the reader's perspective lol :p)

Just throwing this out there to fuel further discussion. Seems the "a person taking over [dead] bodies" seems like an already done idea so I'm trying to look at it from another approach.