PDA

View Full Version : Character hougykou arrancar vs natural arrancar



JioFreed666
December 23, 2007, 09:44 PM
I noticed that long before Aizen came to SS with the Hougykou we saw D-roy/boy in a semi-natural way without the Hougykou became an arrancar right after the Ichigo VS Grand Fisher. That got me wondering what is the true difference between Arracar that became that way without using the Hougykou and those who did. D-roy is a good example but that the same time a bad one because he had already reached his limit of power(the Conversation with grimmjaw) as a normal Hollow and we are not 100% sure how other older arrancar became that way(the Ex-espada, Nel even Grimmjaw himself) and d-roy is the only Arracar there's physical proof he did infact change before Aizen's reign and became one without the Hougykou

Neuroff
December 23, 2007, 10:03 PM
All the Privaron Espada are pre-Hougyoku.
Aaroniero is pre-Hougyoku.
Nel/Nnoitra flashback shows that Nel, Nnoitra, and Szayel are pre-Hougyoku.

Supposedly, the Hougyoku gives a larger power boost than the older method of creating arrancar.

JioFreed666
December 23, 2007, 10:46 PM
the events of Nel's & Nnoitra's incident could have happened during early the month ichigo was training to control his Mask it never gives an actual time just that he thought Nel was dead for a while and after two weeks I would have thought some one was dead. theres is no defined proof of anything but the Privaron Espada are pre-hougyoku because Szayel might be only physically older but not an older Arrancar then his brother like you just said it gives them a larger boost of power(showing why a scientist would be an Espada and not his muscle headed brother). Aaroniero is very sketchy within himself because Grand fisher was able to change part of his body into a soul he had perviously eatten before he was an Arrancar why couldn't Aaroniero do that to his body? before becoming an Arrancar? and if Grimmjaw had his memories from before he was an Arrancar why not Aaroniero by use of Hougykou? see this makes only one fact for sure D-roy and the Privaron Espada were non-hougykou and only them so far unless it is shown more are non-hougykou

Neuroff
December 23, 2007, 10:58 PM
the events of Nel's & Nnoitra's incident could have happened during early the month ichigo was training to control his Mask it never gives an actual time just that he thought Nel was dead for a while and after two weeks I would have thought some one was dead. theres is no defined proof of anything but the Privaron Espada are pre-hougyoku because Szayel might be only physically older but not an older Arrancar then his brother like you just said it gives them a larger boost of power(showing why a scientist would be an Espada and not his muscle headed brother).
Nnoitra asks Nel about how many YEARS she has been gone for. Aizen has been Hueco Mundo for a few months.


Aaroniero is very sketchy within himself because Grand fisher was able to change part of his body into a soul he had perviously eatten before he was an Arrancar why couldn't Aaroniero do that to his body? before becoming an Arrancar? and if Grimmjaw had his memories from before he was an Arrancar why not Aaroniero by use of Hougykou? see this makes only one fact for sure D-roy and the Privaron Espada were non-hougykou and only them so far unless it is shown more are non-hougykou
Grand Fisher's special ability was to be able to change the form of his lure. No other hollow can do that. Aaroniero was an original Espada, so of course he was before the Hougyoku.

JioFreed666
December 23, 2007, 11:51 PM
Alright then Nel and Nnori are natural arrancar(but still high ranking arracar for naturals)

Aaroniero is an original character yes but what says he didn't have that ability to change his body back when he was a normal hollow LIKE grand fisher dose has the ability to change his lure when GF was a normal Hollow it possible to have very similar abilities like that what ever it takes to get souls. anyway there was no way of telling Aaroniero became an Arrancar he could have eaten the Kaien hollow(what ever it was that made it's way with Kaien's spirit to HM) back before he became one and still had the memories much like grand fisher and Grimmjaw dose from before they became Arrancar. Which we know one offically became one through natural means and the other we believe(we never saw the process done to grimmjaw but it's popular belief) Hougykou so there's NO PROOF that Aaroniero is either or and assuming is always a bad thing unless he or Aizen, or another old Arrancar said he was created by Hougykou. So assuming he was a natural is not good neither is assuming he's a Hougykou you can believe but by saying "he is for sure" may mislead other people to say "He is for sure" and if they find out other wise the only one who looks bad is the original person they can pin it on

Neuroff
December 23, 2007, 11:59 PM
The point is that he's an original Espada, which means he became an arrancar either with Nel, Nnoitra, and Szayel, or even before them.

segua
December 24, 2007, 03:11 AM
Also, wouldn't you say that those Privarons are more complete as a hollow than the Hyoukou arrancars? Such as they were able to climb and reach a point that few others could ever hope to attained?

JioFreed666
December 24, 2007, 06:16 PM
When is Aaroniero said to be an Original? he might have claimed it and yes Hougykou Arrancar's appear to be more powerful in the long run but at the same time at this moment we believe Natural Arrancar take up over half of the spots of the current(including dead) Espada(nel probably would have kept her spot or been higher if not for Nnori's betrayl) the only reason I question Aaroniero being Natural is because he has the 10th place which is still the bottom of the chain and easy to get remember if something happened to Aaroniero before the Numeros left, Long would have taken his pace

and this really leads to the question who were the original Espada working for? if Nel had a Number but that was years before Aizen's plan went into full motion....So why where they numbered in the first place?......who where the original Espada working for? and why is that person not around or has Aizen been playing everybody for a longer time then we all believe

Neuroff
December 24, 2007, 06:30 PM
Zommari says he's the last original espada in chapter 297. And the espada didn't have to be working for anyone. They could have just been following orders from the primero espada before Aizen came along.

JioFreed666
December 24, 2007, 06:59 PM
but really that espada had a detailed system of Espada like we see now with assassin squads(like Soul society) Nermous(Like vice captains) and a beautiful palace like Aizen has now(In the Nel flash back they had at least ruins of something like they have now)? they had to be working for some one they really had to be working for some one that liked(or couldn't fight against) the order they where in didn't question it just like now for something like the position Nel was in before she went "missing".

lilkwarrior
December 25, 2007, 06:08 AM
Though this sounds funny, but anybody watched Afro Sumari? Number One vs. Number 2 for hundreds of years? The Espada were probably like that before Aizen came along, killing and eating each other to be Number One. Looking at the nature of the Adjuchas, and worst, the Vasto Lorde, "it was a killed or be killed" life in Hueco Mundo with no rules; Some Espada could be jumped by a group of adjuchas or lesser hollows, some Espada could be attacked by other Espada (like Nel), anything goes. Heck, for all we know, the Espada would be slitting each other throats right now if Aizen didn't more organize things. With the Crumbling treasure, Aizen could stablize Vastorlorde and Gillians so they don't have to continually eat other hollow/humans. Adding Aizen is a VERY powerful being who wants to be a ruler (and needs a army), the hollow likewise obeyed him.

MegaX
December 26, 2007, 05:22 PM
but really that espada had a detailed system of Espada like we see now with assassin squads(like Soul society) Nermous(Like vice captains) and a beautiful palace like Aizen has now(In the Nel flash back they had at least ruins of something like they have now)? they had to be working for some one they really had to be working for some one that liked(or couldn't fight against) the order they where in didn't question it just like now for something like the position Nel was in before she went "missing".

You know, I really don't think they were working for someone at all. I think that they just formed those ranks and hierarchies to assist in their self-preservation as a race.

AngryChubbs
December 26, 2007, 11:58 PM
well all intelligent creatures create ranks and have leaders but thats it...i doubt they were working fr anyone. like now, they arent working for aizen...they just think that aizen will get them the farthest in life.

poopoomaru
December 30, 2007, 02:05 AM
I dont know why everyone rules out the possibility of Aizen existing in Hueco Muendo before he defected from Soul Society, the man controls illusions, and was already in deep enough with the Hollow world to be able to have a mass of gillian save him and his subordinates. It is likely he has been with them for many many years. Captains answer only to the Commander General and Central 46. The latter not really doing much as far as we know considering everything we saw from them was actually Aizen's doing. The former being just one man who can be fooled just as easily as anyone else.

Neuroff
December 30, 2007, 02:21 AM
I dont know why everyone rules out the possibility of Aizen existing in Hueco Muendo before he defected from Soul Society, the man controls illusions, and was already in deep enough with the Hollow world to be able to have a mass of gillian save him and his subordinates. It is likely he has been with them for many many years. Captains answer only to the Commander General and Central 46. The latter not really doing much as far as we know considering everything we saw from them was actually Aizen's doing. The former being just one man who can be fooled just as easily as anyone else.
Even IF Aizen were in Hueco Mundo before he defected, he did not have the Hougyoku. It's completely irrelevant to this topic.

gigantor21
December 30, 2007, 03:28 AM
^ Thank you for pointing that out.

And the key difference is, in a word, stability.

Looking back on Grand Fisher, Isshin commented that he wasn't put together well, and that Aizen wanted the Hougyoku because it produced consistent results. It's not that it ALWAYS makes the Hollow a stronger hybrid, but it guarantees you'll get the best kind every time. That's how I interpreted it.

poopoomaru
December 30, 2007, 05:22 AM
I think you are right in that a lot of what makes a difference is luck and predetermined ability with natural shinigamification. Exceptionally powerful willed hollows who became menos would form a better arrancar, this probably being who the privarion are. But weaker willed hollows that got less far in the menos line due to that lack of will might form a proportionally worse arrancar.

With the hougyouku, regardless of any other factor besides its own awakening percentage, any hollow at any stage can be a perfect Arrancar.

Because of this artificially met standard also there is the factor of the sharpness of their spirit energy. Much through the SS arc it became clear that focusing your spirit energy was just as integral, if not more so, then the sheer amount you have. Becoming of such importance that the difference for Ichigo meant being on par with Zaraki and not even being able to cut his skin. Isshin commented on the fuzziness or similar meaning to the feel of Grand Fisher's reiatsu, so I am guessing natural shinigamification just has a greater tendency to be makeshift and poorly put together; depending on chance and other random variables.

AngryChubbs
January 03, 2008, 11:27 PM
^ Thank you for pointing that out.

And the key difference is, in a word, stability.

Looking back on Grand Fisher, Isshin commented that he wasn't put together well, and that Aizen wanted the Hougyoku because it produced consistent results. It's not that it ALWAYS makes the Hollow a stronger hybrid, but it guarantees you'll get the best kind every time. That's how I interpreted it.

i dont know if i agree with that or not. i mean i think depending on how you use it and how often it is used, it will vary the outcomes. i mean just look at wonderweiss compared to the others. why is wonderweiss a pure being while the others are clearly not pure.

gigantor21
January 04, 2008, 10:21 PM
^ The same reason everyone isn't Aizen level, and that they don't all look and act the same; each of them are made up of different Hollows on a unique core.

Since Menos can be made up of hundreds, if not thousands of lesser beasts, and we've no way of knowing which personality the Gillian will take, it could be anything. My guess is that it's completely random, or an aggregate--but either way, the result is a gargantuan range of personality and strength. So an occasional Wonderweiss is no big deal. :p

Vegetoacs
January 05, 2008, 08:57 AM
Just on the the note of natural arrancarization. Judging from what we've seen of natural arrancar versus hogyoku arrancar, I believe it's partially about the stability of the transformation, but also about the degree of hybridisation. It is stated that the Hogyoku dissipates the barrier between Shinigami and Hollow, which results in a perfect hybrid. For mine, this suggests that natural arrancar who gain their shinigami powers by removing their masks aren't necessarily dissipating the barrier between shinigami and hollow, but rather evening the playing field between the two a bit more, with the hollow side still maintaining a stronger role than that of the shinigami. If this were the case, it would be likely the reason why the perfect hybrids far surpass the "natural" arrancar. So if we assume this is true, not only does the hogyoku deliver a solid, stable transformation, but a completely even one with the maximum potential to develop.

If this were the case, it might also be possible that over time a natural arrancar or vizard might be able to develop their respective sides and eventually even the balance out, as we've seen Nnoitoria's development of his shinigami side by the way his Zanpakuto changed over time. I'm thinking along these lines based upon Aizen's speech at the end of the SS arc, in which he talks about working on developing/breeding/making hollows with similar aspects to shinigami. This also seems to confirm Aizen as having being in Huenco Mundo for some time. It's likely he formed the Espada of the natural arrancar as an alliance under a powerful being, which would remove them from the endless kill or be killed cycle by placing them at the top as a unified front that would prevent lone powerful hollow, or adjucas with a considerable number of gillian from taking them down. Not that this has anything major to do with the topic, aside from add potential support to my hypothesis based upon Aizen's conclusions, reached by experimenting on hollow.

henrikoez
January 05, 2008, 09:55 AM
Does Hougyouku raise the arrancar level too? Like when someone(i mean it was still a hollow) is in Adjucha, it will become Vasto Lorde after changed into arrancar with Hougyouku?

Because i think that Hougyoku is increasing the power of the transformed arrancar that using Hougyoku. Vizards and Arrancars that didn't use Hougyoku is perfect, but the Hougyoku is like upgrading the current Arrancar.

gigantor21
January 05, 2008, 07:31 PM
^ I doubt that. That would screw everything up like crazy; the Vastorodes in the Espadawould be godly, and Aizen would have to be uber-godly by default because needs to be stronger than all of them. Plus, we'd have no way of knowing, due to the wide range in strengths they each have--something that even the Hougyoku can't manipulate.

henrikoez
January 05, 2008, 08:44 PM
Well, Aizen has a double reiatsu than captain's reiatsu so it must be stronger than vasto lorde. So Hougyouku just make the transformation from hollow to arrancar faster and more perfect than the hollow that force to break their mask?

Jehuty
January 05, 2008, 09:05 PM
but really that espada had a detailed system of Espada like we see now with assassin squads(like Soul society) Nermous(Like vice captains) and a beautiful palace like Aizen has now(In the Nel flash back they had at least ruins of something like they have now)? they had to be working for some one they really had to be working for some one that liked(or couldn't fight against) the order they where in didn't question it just like now for something like the position Nel was in before she went "missing".

It's not exactly like Soul Society.

Captains and their companies are organized 1-13 in terms of specialization, not strength. 12 is R&D, 4 is healing (and menial tasks), 11 is no kidou or the like, and so forth. They also have a ranking of the members within the companies, the seats and squads.

The Espada are different. They use more crude system of ranking. One person per rank, no actual "companies," just the various subordinates, all of whom are equally ranked, apparently. The exequias exist, but that's not too styled, is it?

All in all, it's not difficult to imagine these guys running themselves for a long time, just a dog eat dog world where everyone does what they can to get ahead, be it conspiracy or... punching a hole through someone's torso and blasting them to bits.

Anyway, back to the topic. The true difference between natural and unnatural Arrancar? Urahara and Isshin said that "incomplete" Arrancar had been coming from Hueco Mundo for a long time. Ishida said that the Arrancar who look more like humans are better at fighting. My guess? The Hougyoku forms the Hollow into an Arrancar to be as human as it can.