Who has better Taijutsu? Rock Lee, Neji, Naruto or Sasuke.

[Windmillblade]

As we know there are a few really good taijutsu users in konoha's youth batch.
Who has better hand to hand combat skill?

[mestizo311]

If we're talking about the most damaging, it would be Neji's juuken. But if you set aside bloodline limits, I would say Lee is the better hand to hand combat user.

[Dice]

I'd say that Naruto is the worst in taijutsu out of these four. Rock Lee, Neji and Sasuke are way better I think.
If you just count hand to hand combat without the doujutsus than I would say Lee is the best. But only if he uses the gates. Which is some kind of assitance-jutsu like the doujutsus. But still if he opens all eight gates (assuming he is able to) he would be by far the strongest taijutsu user of these four I guess (but just for an moment).
But all in all it's hard to judge. I hear many people saying of "Sasuke of course" etc. but I can't decide which one I would choose. Particulary because we didn't see that much of Lee and Neji in part two. I can't estimate how far Lee can go by using his gates but as I said when using the eight gate he should be the strongest taijutsu user.

So my opinion is:
4. Naruto
1. Sasuke, Lee, Neji

Btw.: Maybe I just can't remember correctly but does Neji use something else than taijutsu? The chakra-thing he does is still taijutsu, isnt' it? At least I know that he isn't using genjutsu XD

[Alterno]

Even now... I say:

Neji
Rock Lee
Sasuke
NarutoNeji is better than Rock Lee, Rock Lee is better than Sasuke and Sasuke is better than Naruto, in tae jutsu.

[SkyKing]

Even now... I say:

Neji
Rock Lee
Sasuke
NarutoNeji is better than Rock Lee, Rock Lee is better than Sasuke and Sasuke is better than Naruto, in tae jutsu.

I agree with that list, but eventually Lee will be better than Neji because, Lee only option is taijutsu and what's the point of an only taijutsu user unless they become enormously strong :darn .

[ANBU4U]

Hmmmm.......so my choices are Lee, Naruto, Neji, or Sasuke?

Well...I wont base this on pure technical prowess (i.e.- Sasuke w/o sharingan, Naruto w/e kyuubi ect.) as 1: Thats unrealistic, and 2: It's nigh impossible. Still I will factor in technical skill as I see it.

Ok so lets begin:

Rock Lee- With his weights off Lee's speed is intense, but w/o a direct confrontation it's hard to compare to the rest on this list....the best we can do is benchmarks. In this case beginning with Garra:

Pre-time skip Sasuke had achieved the speed Lee demonstrated against Garra with his weights off. This is evidenced by both Lee's admission and the effect Sasuke had on Garra's shield of sand.
Then versus Sauske at the valley of the end, it seemed (after drawing on the kyuubi to varying degrees) that Naruto matched, and then exceed that vary same swiftness.

So before opening the chakra gates it seems Sauske and Naruto have the ability to keep up with Lee at the vary least......mind you we do not have a soild grasp of Lee's abilities post-time skip....so while I'll go ahead and assume he's gotten faster I'll only consider a relatively normal jump in ability relative to his physical growth.

Still, speed aside, Lee has his drunken fist style which is extremely effect even against taijutsu specialist and his chakra gates....which are potentially a trump to match any other. On the downside though....many of Lee's best moves tend to be double edged.

Naruto- Everyone here should be able to agree that, at his base level, Naruto's taijutsu is the crudest on this list. Sasuke, Lee, and Neji each have unique and deadly fighting styles...Sasuke's typically ending up in close quarters Combat...often grappling, Lee relying of iron fist movements of a vary stylized manor, and Neji relying on even more ritualized hyyuga gentle fist.....each tries to do a different thing, Sasuke tries to get in close and subdue/puncture, Neji tries to get within midrange to get a bead on your chakra points, and Lee tries to simply beat the snot of you out right.

Naruto though....has no definitive style...at least not without the kyuubi....this in turn leads to general mediocrity as I see it. When he IS drawing on the kyuubi however, Naruto's taijutsu takes on an unpredictable, animalistic, and beserker style that suits him well...and is as a result...quite effective. Still...he seems to have trouble isolating that aspect of his relationship with the fox...ashame. Also, in that form Naruto is likely able to keep up with a weightless...or perhaps even partially or full released (chakra gates) Lee.

Neji- Neji's taijutsu is unique in that it attacks internal organs, and the chakra system itself.....an attack thats honestly just hard to defend against...especially at Neji's speed. Also...how does one prepare internal organs.....they cant be toughened up through training like muscles and thus, every opponent more or less becomes a cupcake...a few good hits should do it.

Nothing too much can be guessed in the order of Neji's speed in general....but the speed of his attacks themselves appear to be blinding. That said, I refuse to speculate much further.

The Byakugan is also a obviously marked advantage in hand to hand combat.....a 359 degree field of vision is just daunting. Sure he has a blind spot....but so does everyone, the difference with Neji is that his is so small he can defend it far easier that the rest of us. Hell....at 1 degree of his field of vision he SHOULD be able to tell an attack is coming from there almost by process of elimination.

Sasuke- Ok....now for Sasuke. He's...well he's good, real good. Even before attaining his sharingan Sasuke had a vary stylized taijutsu style that lent well to his agility, and audacity. He gets in close...and quick. Then, rather than backing out of striking range and beginning another attack sasuke maneuvers around the opponent. Its fun to watch...and effective because it plays towards his strengths.....strengths that have only increased after obtaining the sharingan (reaction time at close range).

On top of that there's Sasuke speed...which allows him to close, and dodge, at a typically superior rate. He was as fast as Lee and Naruto pre-time skip...and it seems reasonable to assume he's as fast, or faster than anyone on this list now.

Ok, so now for my rankings.

1) Sasuke- His style just works for him, it plays towards his strengths and is consistent. His speed thus far in the manga is also a huge factor.

2) Neji- He's a Jounin for a reason...and in the end that's why I picked him here. He and Lee are both taijutsu specialist...just in different forms....so dedication to the style of combat isn't really the issue...even if in Lee's case its all he can do. I think Lee can beeat Neji...in fact I think everyone on this list CAN beat each other......but I value the effectiveness of Neji's taijutsu a bit more. Still...its close.

3) Lee- He could just as easily go one position up....but in the end I think Neji would still beat him thus far. In the event that Lee DID beat Neji...I imagine he'd be somewhat worse for wear than anyone else who achieved the same given the nature of his abilities.

4) Naruto- Kyubbi Naruto (without the shroud) can get it done against anyone on this list......but he just doesn't show up enough. And that's that really. Naruto's taijutsu just isn't very note worthy otherwise....


Theres my opinion on the matter.

[Jehuty]

Let's talk Part II, shall we?

Sasuke - Ridiculously good at Taijutsu. With his sword, only S-class ninja seem to be able to strike him. Strongest, in my book.

Neji - Juuken, strongest in Konoha for its strategy of hitting organs directly plus the tenketsu. Having become a jounin, he's obviously increased his strength. The Byakugan allows good clarity, excellent for catching high-speed objects. Second.

Lee - With his weights, one of the weakest after the timeskip. Without, however, he can move at blindingly fast speeds.

Naruto - Difficult to say. Kagebunshin is an integral part of his fighting style, so I'm gonna count it as that. After the Kakuzu fight, it's clear he uses them to their full potential, a great feat. It makes him tied or just behind Sasuke in strength. With the kyuubi, however, he becomes insanely powerful.

[Karma]

Let's talk Part II, shall we?

Sasuke - Ridiculously good at Taijutsu. With his sword, only S-class ninja seem to be able to strike him. Strongest, in my book.

Neji - Juuken, strongest in Konoha for its strategy of hitting organs directly plus the tenketsu. Having become a jounin, he's obviously increased his strength. The Byakugan allows good clarity, excellent for catching high-speed objects. Second.

Lee - With his weights, one of the weakest after the timeskip. Without, however, he can move at blindingly fast speeds.

Naruto - Difficult to say. Kagebunshin is an integral part of his fighting style, so I'm gonna count it as that. After the Kakuzu fight, it's clear he uses them to their full potential, a great feat. It makes him tied or just behind Sasuke in strength. With the kyuubi, however, he becomes insanely powerful.

Agreed with what you stated above..

ANBU guy comes close as well.. but i rather yours because it speak unbias more than the other...

I think Lee should have been the best.. But i guess kishi just trying to keep lee style on the hold..

and for neji- he loves taijutsu and like close combat fights.. But we see what happen when its comes to fighting someone as powerful as naruto...

Sasuke as improve alot.. and i expect it from is style of fighting still.. Plus orchimaru was very good on Taijutsu as well..

Naruto.. is very good on Taijutsu since the time skip, I won't say he was very good at it from the start.. But if he can defeat jouinin rank with is Kage bunshin etc.. that say alot about is taijutsu skills..

and since time skip he fought Kakuzu and proves that he knows how to use is kage bunshin more properly... :)

[segua]

If it's a battle of speed, it's definitely between Rock Lee and Sasuke. The only thing Rock Lee really has going for him is his extreme high speed combo that maxes out his Lotus potential. Sasuke's speed and ability to see at high speeds make him dangerous. Couple that with his lightning attacks and the man is dangerous.

Neji is dangerous if he lands a hit or you're within range. Where as Sasuke may have fast feet, Neji has fast arms and hands. Yet Neji doesn't even have to make contact to deliver damage, he could knick an opponent with his chakra.

As for Naruto, he's is a jinchuuriki. Not just any jinchuuriki but Kyuubi's. With this, Naruto could either concentrate mass Kyuubi chakra into one attack or use that same amount of chakra for a clone army that does massive amount of combos. So you're talking about a severe beat down with his clones. Naruto has the biggest damage possibility out of the whole four. Well the biggest consistent damage possibility. His ability to clone himself for a vast array of himself balances his sheer inability in taijutsu.

I wonder if Naruto's taijutsu has become on par with Rock Lee? Rock Lee seems to be the taijutsu standard since he specializes in basic taijutsu.

[Oblivion]

in a taijutsu only battle:

if its who has the strongest impact on a hit:
Lee, though neji can seal chakra and bla, in a taijutsu battle only, this doesnt matter.

if its speed:
lee withuot his weight is only matchable by sasuke, with one or two gates open he is beyond him and with 4 he surpasses all.

technique:
Neji: elegant, fast and steady
sasuke: weird, unpredictable, air-floating
lee: conventional, but steady. in Drunkenfist mode he'll be top1.
naruto: only dangerous if he uses bunshins.

ability to take hits:
that's one of the important things in taijutsu, not only to hit out but take hits.
but right now i cant tell. maybe lee is the best, after all he trains only taijutsu and has strengthen his body for this only

[lagif]

Well, if take taijutsu only, I bet the first place would take Sasuke, all speedy and talented and fast advancing, whereas Lee improves only due to his hard work.
Neji's good enough, but if take away all his ninjutsu, i doubt he could stand against Lee.
Naruto... oh, come on...

[Alexis]

Lol, Naruto?
He's one of the last people who actually use taijutsu that I'd classify as good with it.

Anyway it's a bit uncertain how good Sasuke has gotten with it. Normally I'd say Lee and Neji, but Sasuke's level is probably quite high now after Orochimaru's training, and along with his speed he might be quite good at it. He developed a few skills that look like they're good for close range fighting, so I think he has gone up quite a bit since last.

But I'm thinking:

Sasuke
Lee
Neji
Naruto

[lordHokage]

Hmmmm.......so my choices are Lee, Naruto, Neji, Sasuke, or Neji?

I totally agree with you that Rock Lee has the better Taijutsu than Naruto, Neji and Sasuke. :D

[mck06]

well sasuke and neji use they eye technique in combination with the taijustsu so then Rock can use the drunken mode or in previous arc he can open 4 gates now how many he can? w/e with this techniques + taijustsu Rock Lee > Sasuke, Neji and Naruto.

[patedecarne]

Lee with the eight gates will totally destroy the others, even pain or sharingan cannot keep up lee in his maximum state

[Inkovic]

Post Time Skip I rate

Sasuke
Neiji
Rock Lee
Naruto

We are talking pure Taijutsu no other jutsu's so I think that order is correct. Sasuke's Sharingan + godly Body Flicker makes him unmatched by anybody close to his age. Neiji's Byakyugan and Gentle fist is best defence close combat so Rock lee won't beat him. Rock Lee is fast, strong but he simply isn't talented. In ONE MONTH during the Chunnin exams Sasuke matched Rock Lee's speed in the Gaara fight. Naruto uses Taijutsu just as a distraction to both learn the opponents techniques and set them up for the Rasengan.

[ANBU4U]

I totally agree with you that Rock Lee has the better Taijutsu than Naruto, Neji and Sasuke. :D

I was just listing my options there...not ranking them.

[jodi]

I totally agree with you that Rock Lee has the better Taijutsu than Naruto, Neji and Sasuke. :D

he didn't say that xD

list:

Neji
Sasuke
Lee
Naruto

I don't see someone better with Taijutsu than Neji
even if Sasuke blocks him, he would still be hurt
remember what Lee says... that Neji is best at taijutsu
gentle fist style is just a lethal weapon, not a hurting weapon
its just lethal.

now, Sasuke and Lee use strength and speedy, but even if they hit Neji in the stomach it doesn't mean that he is going to die or be beaten by it
now on other hand... one hit by Neji in anyone's stomach and it would be the end of the match
we saw that even against Naruto... only Kyuubi chakra was able to get Naruto up
and when they kidnapped Hinata, his father killed the crap nin with one blow in the stomach(but that was only shown in the anime I guess)

[Oblivion]

@jodi: i totally not agree with this argumentation

one hit with lee with 4 gates open and its about finish,
while one hit by lee was enough to open gaara's sand shield and the final 4th gate punch would real destroy anything (gaara survived only coz of all teh sand and the compressed sand shield ontop of his skin)


neji needs 64 hits to make some effect, and his finish combo needs like 128 hits. first he has to make an opening to even hit. lee is just lightning fast. no way to avoid a hit on lvl4.

and drunken fist > gentle fist.

i think lvl4 gate or drunken fist are auto-win. lee could fight kimimaro with drunken fist. and i think kimimaro has kinda the same style of taijutsu like sasuke (without all the airfloating graping)

[Alterno]

Let's talk Part II, shall we?
Sasuke - Ridiculously good at Taijutsu. With his sword, only S-class ninja seem to be able to strike him. Strongest, in my book.


Well, Taejutsu is hand to hand combat, when sasuke uses his sword he is not using tae jutsu.

[Alexis]

I don't think "hand-to-hand" is meant to be taken literally. What if someone is wearing gloves? lol I'm sure it includes swords and things used in close proximity that requires your own physical strength.

[Oblivion]

I don't think "hand-to-hand" is meant to be taken literally. What if someone is wearing gloves? lol I'm sure it includes swords and things used in close proximity that requires your own physical strength.

nah lets this really make hand to hand. sasuke is the only one of em who uses any weapons

and kusangi is a hell of a sword, damn sharp and DAMN LONG!.
the fight would become a '100-meter-sword-avoiding-dash-just-to-come-any-closer' fight.

[Dice]

The only point most of us (if not all) agree is that Naruto has the worst taijutsu XD
Still I think it's really hard to judge.
If Neji hits you he can seal your charka flow and your not able to mold any chakra. But maybe people like Lee or Sasuke won't be hit by it. And Naruto is still able to take some of the kyuubi chakra after his own chakra was sealed.
Lee has some really fast moves but as Anbu4u pointed out: most of the are double edged (btw. nice list^^). Furthermore I don't know how fast he is at the moment compared to the other. But my bet is that at the moment he "showed" his fourth gate he would have beaten all the genin quite easily if only taijutsu matters. Ohh and do you think is able to use the gates while using the drunken fist? My guess is he cant, so theoretically he has either the gates or the drunken fist (in this case I'd go for the gates XD)
Sasuke is really fast too and has his sharingan so he should at least see the most (I'm not talking about 360°-view). But still it's to hard to judge how good he is compared to the other.
Naruto has by far the worst taijutsu of them and he needs sometime until he gathers some momentum in a fight. He's the slowest of them but raw power wise only matched by Lee.

After reading some good analysises and thinking about it I'm still not able to satisfactorily rank them.



I think we should count weapons to hand to hand combat. I think using a weapon somehow belongs to taijutsu. And are there not only three categories a ninja trains? Gen-, nin- and taijutsu? Weapons don't belong to genjutsu and ninjutsu. So there is only taijutsu left. I think of weapons as tools that assist you with taijutsu. Like byakugan, sharingan, even Kyuubi... It's just something everybody could obtain.


Ohh and I didn't see an answer (maybe you don't want to answer XD) so I'm asking again: Is Neji actually using something else than taijutsu?

Off topic:
Am I the only one who thinks that Kakuzu just underestimated Naruto and it wasn't that brilliant how Naruto used his kagebunshin? I'm just saying that because many people are just reffering to this fight if they are talking about good-kage-bunshin-use. I think it's just normal to use them as distraction but if Kakuzu wouldn't have thought "ohh this jutsu is dangerous I should watch out not to be hit by it" but would have also thought "ohh this brat is good I should watch out for HIM" Naruto wouldn't have won that easily. But I'm not saying he didn't use them in a good way but it isn't something he hasn't done before. So what I wish for the future is seeing Naruto making good use of kagebunshin in a fight against an opponent who doesn't underestimate him and is not only afraid of one jutsu.
I'm sorry that this took longer than expected. I would at least spoiler-tag this one but I don't know how to do it.

[Oblivion]

Am I the only one who thinks that Kakuzu just underestimated Naruto and it wasn't that brilliant how Naruto used his kagebunshin? I'm just saying that because many people are just reffering to this fight if they are talking about good-kage-bunshin-use. I think it's just normal to use them as distraction but if Kakuzu wouldn't have thought "ohh this jutsu is dangerous I should watch out not to be hit by it" but would have also thought "ohh this brat is good I should watch out for HIM" Naruto wouldn't have won that easily. But I'm not saying he didn't use them in a good way but it isn't something he hasn't done before. So what I wish for the future is seeing Naruto making good use of kagebunshin in a fight against an opponent who doesn't underestimate him and is not only afraid of one jutsu.
I'm sorry that this took longer than expected. I would at least spoiler-tag this one but I don't know how to do it.

it has been mentioned quite often (well i did^^): narutos use of the bunshine was great, if you compare it to how he used to use them. Kakuzu was just fighting plain bad. compared to how he just fought kakashi this was just stupid.

but to topic:

I think we should count weapons in this ce. I think using a weapon somehow belongs to taijutsu. And are there not only three categories a ninja trains? Gen-, nin- and taijutsu? Weapons don't belong to genjutsu and ninjutsu. So there is only taijutsu left. I think of weapons as tools that assist you with taijutsu. Like byakugan, sharingan, even Kyuubi... It's just something everybody could obtain.

i just said it, with weapons, this is laughable, sasuke would cut most of em down with his chidori enhanced kusangi.
lee would have to go instantly to gate 4 (if he stands and open one after the other, he'd already be cut in half) and hit sasuke right away with lightning speed before sasuke can anticipate where the attack is coming from with his sharingan.

and remember the range of kusangi, neji wouldnt ever reach sasuke.

anyway what weapons do they use at all?
lee hasnt shown yet,
naruto uses some kunai who never ever have hit the enemy....
lee uses kunai and stars quite well and efficiently
sasuke uses everything from kunai's to these thin rope thingies, and quite masterly.



so lets leave them out, plain old school mano a mano fist fight.

and btw naruto is SOOO bad in taijutsu, he actually needs to gang on enemies to land one hit....

[Jehuty]

Well, Taejutsu is hand to hand combat, when sasuke uses his sword he is not using tae jutsu.
Taijutsu is close quarters combat. It's non-ninjutsu or genjutsu.

Either way, Sasuke's the fastest, Sasuke's likely the strongest.

[segua]

It seems like all the other depends on chakra to reinforce their natural strength and speed but Rock Lee has trained so hard and so much that his body is physically fast and strong. Not only that but with this training, his muscles should be in great shape.

So when Lee is drunken, with his already fast and strong body, it's hard to determine his next move unlike when he's sober. Now a drunken pissed-off Lee in Lotus would be lethal.

But still, if a person could still see the movements and react fast enough such as in Neji's and Sasuke's case, Lee has to open as many gates as he could. But since everyone has grown pretty much, things might be more difficult for Lee. Neji's skill with his kaiten might increased. Sasuke has a complete sharingan and his speed has further increased.

[Oblivion]

But still, if a person could still see the movements and react fast enough such as in Neji's and Sasuke's case, Lee has to open as many gates as he could.

he just has to open the one to increase speed and he is infact untouchable. and noone should be fast enough to react to that. even if sasuke can see lee moving with his sharingan, this time again he wont be able to react fast enough.

so lets say who can take the most hits?

could naruto sasuke or lee survive after a lotus hit?

and to sasuke: i dont think he has such hard punches. i dont think his hits have as much of an impact as lee's. maybe more the neji, but neji hits not once but like 32 times once he can.

[Decorus]

I wouldn't rank them.

Neji has Distance, skill and the ability to shutdown his opponents.

Sasuke has speed, genjutsu and a wide arsenal of jutsu

Rock Lee has speed and Skill, but his attacks do as much damage to himself as to his opponent.

Naruto has Knockback, clones and superior tactics.

Naruto can take the most hits, sorry guys that was just a Bunshin.
Sasuke likely has the best speed, but his arrogence is his downfall.
Neji is exceptionally nasty and so far his only loss was to Naruto, I really wouldn't mind seeing a Neji vrs Sasuke fight.

Rock Lee while a great character just can't compete in the big boy leagues.

[Franckie]

Neji has Jyuuken, a taijutsu-style which surpasses what Lee has trained in and what Sasuke copied. Lee, on the other hand, possesses the Gates and will probably acquire Morning Peacock eventually while Sasuke, based upon what we've seen thus far, would be limited to the first gate only. Naruto can pull off some crazy stunts with KB, but they're considered ninjutsu instead of taijutsu.

IMO - The List:

01: Hyuuga Neji
02: Rock Lee (without Gates)
03: Uchiha Sasuke
04: Uzumaki Naruto

[Jehuty]

Neji has Jyuuken, a taijutsu-style which surpasses what Lee has trained in and what Sasuke copied. Lee, on the other hand, possesses the Gates and will probably acquire Morning Peacock eventually while Sasuke, based upon what we've seen thus far, would be limited to the first gate only. Naruto can pull off some crazy stunts with KB, but they're considered ninjutsu instead of taijutsu.

IMO - The List:

01: Hyuuga Neji
02: Rock Lee (without Gates)
03: Uchiha Sasuke
04: Uzumaki Naruto
If we don't consider the Kagebunshin as part of his style (Naruto's the only one who can use them in such a way), then we shouldn't count Byakugan or Sharingan.

[Inkovic]

In all honesty I simply believe Lee isn't talented enough to compare to Sasuke and Neiji. The second either one surpass him he'll never catch them. In my opinion Le was never better than Neiji and obviously isn't on his level now as Neiji is a Jounin and Sasuke has surpassed Lee Taijutsu wise after that month break between the Chuunin exam without Lee's use of the gates and Sasuke has gotten really really strong in a really really short time.

[The Noobslayer]

gah quite spreading misinformation people, Sasuke does not have kusanagi, he has a regular sword. ::glares at oblivion:: lol

on an off note, does anyone else laugh their ass off at the anime censor's name for the drunken fist?

THE LOOPY FIST. XD

[Solid Slap]

In my opinion Neji is the best at taijutsu, followed by Sasuke, Rock Lee, and then Naruto. I hope I'm getting this right, but I think that when Sasuke uses his sword it is considered kenjutsu.

[Jehuty]

In my opinion Neji is the best at taijutsu, followed by Sasuke, Rock Lee, and then Naruto. I hope I'm getting this right, but I think that when Sasuke uses his sword it is considered kenjutsu.
I'd imagine that's a subcategory of Taijutsu, considering there are only three categories of shinobi combat.

[Neuroff]

gah quite spreading misinformation people, Sasuke does not have kusanagi, he has a regular sword. ::glares at oblivion:: lol

on an off note, does anyone else laugh their ass off at the anime censor's name for the drunken fist?

THE LOOPY FIST. XD
http://www.onemanga.com/naruto/308/09/

[The Noobslayer]

http://www.onemanga.com/naruto/308/09/

well i feel like a tard, thats what ive been told about the sword though lol thanks, and sorry oblivion :(

[Neuroff]

You guys are underestimating the effect of Juuken in taijutsu. Lee actually DOES use chakra for his taijutsu, he just cant mold his chakra in order to use jutsu. Chakra is necessary for increasing the speed and power of their strikes.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/36/naruto_36_14/


well i feel like a tard, thats what ive been told about the sword though lol thanks, and sorry oblivion :(
I think people assume there is only one sword of Kusanagi, but there actually seems to be multiple swords of Kusanagi.

[Decorus]

Everyone who Makes a contract with Monkey's would be able to use the Monkey King as a staff, Everyone who makes a contract with Snakes would get the Kusanagi sword. I'm pretty sure who ever uses the Toad Contract gets those massive weapons Jiraiya used to kill the Pein Zombies.

Honestly trying to prove who has better Taijutsu would be a waste of time.
Apple is not better then Orange or better then Plum or better then Banana.

[bighawke5]

Hmmmm.......so my choices are Lee, Naruto, Neji, or Sasuke?

Well...I wont base this on pure technical prowess (i.e.- Sasuke w/o sharingan, Naruto w/e kyuubi ect.) as 1: Thats unrealistic, and 2: It's nigh impossible. Still I will factor in technical skill as I see it.

Ok so lets begin:

Rock Lee- With his weights off Lee's speed is intense, but w/o a direct confrontation it's hard to compare to the rest on this list....the best we can do is benchmarks. In this case beginning with Garra:

Pre-time skip Sasuke had achieved the speed Lee demonstrated against Garra with his weights off. This is evidenced by both Lee's admission and the effect Sasuke had on Garra's shield of sand.
Then versus Sauske at the valley of the end, it seemed (after drawing on the kyuubi to varying degrees) that Naruto matched, and then exceed that vary same swiftness.

So before opening the chakra gates it seems Sauske and Naruto have the ability to keep up with Lee at the vary least......mind you we do not have a soild grasp of Lee's abilities post-time skip....so while I'll go ahead and assume he's gotten faster I'll only consider a relatively normal jump in ability relative to his physical growth.

Still, speed aside, Lee has his drunken fist style which is extremely effect even against taijutsu specialist and his chakra gates....which are potentially a trump to match any other. On the downside though....many of Lee's best moves tend to be double edged.

Naruto- Everyone here should be able to agree that, at his base level, Naruto's taijutsu is the crudest on this list. Sasuke, Lee, and Neji each have unique and deadly fighting styles...Sasuke's typically ending up in close quarters Combat...often grappling, Lee relying of iron fist movements of a vary stylized manor, and Neji relying on even more ritualized hyyuga gentle fist.....each tries to do a different thing, Sasuke tries to get in close and subdue/puncture, Neji tries to get within midrange to get a bead on your chakra points, and Lee tries to simply beat the snot of you out right.

Naruto though....has no definitive style...at least not without the kyuubi....this in turn leads to general mediocrity as I see it. When he IS drawing on the kyuubi however, Naruto's taijutsu takes on an unpredictable, animalistic, and beserker style that suits him well...and is as a result...quite effective. Still...he seems to have trouble isolating that aspect of his relationship with the fox...ashame. Also, in that form Naruto is likely able to keep up with a weightless...or perhaps even partially or full released (chakra gates) Lee.

Neji- Neji's taijutsu is unique in that it attacks internal organs, and the chakra system itself.....an attack thats honestly just hard to defend against...especially at Neji's speed. Also...how does one prepare internal organs.....they cant be toughened up through training like muscles and thus, every opponent more or less becomes a cupcake...a few good hits should do it.

Nothing too much can be guessed in the order of Neji's speed in general....but the speed of his attacks themselves appear to be blinding. That said, I refuse to speculate much further.

The Byakugan is also a obviously marked advantage in hand to hand combat.....a 359 degree field of vision is just daunting. Sure he has a blind spot....but so does everyone, the difference with Neji is that his is so small he can defend it far easier that the rest of us. Hell....at 1 degree of his field of vision he SHOULD be able to tell an attack is coming from there almost by process of elimination.

Sasuke- Ok....now for Sasuke. He's...well he's good, real good. Even before attaining his sharingan Sasuke had a vary stylized taijutsu style that lent well to his agility, and audacity. He gets in close...and quick. Then, rather than backing out of striking range and beginning another attack sasuke maneuvers around the opponent. Its fun to watch...and effective because it plays towards his strengths.....strengths that have only increased after obtaining the sharingan (reaction time at close range).

On top of that there's Sasuke speed...which allows him to close, and dodge, at a typically superior rate. He was as fast as Lee and Naruto pre-time skip...and it seems reasonable to assume he's as fast, or faster than anyone on this list now.

Ok, so now for my rankings.

1) Sasuke- His style just works for him, it plays towards his strengths and is consistent. His speed thus far in the manga is also a huge factor.

2) Neji- He's a Jounin for a reason...and in the end that's why I picked him here. He and Lee are both taijutsu specialist...just in different forms....so dedication to the style of combat isn't really the issue...even if in Lee's case its all he can do. I think Lee can beeat Neji...in fact I think everyone on this list CAN beat each other......but I value the effectiveness of Neji's taijutsu a bit more. Still...its close.

3) Lee- He could just as easily go one position up....but in the end I think Neji would still beat him thus far. In the event that Lee DID beat Neji...I imagine he'd be somewhat worse for wear than anyone else who achieved the same given the nature of his abilities.

4) Naruto- Kyubbi Naruto (without the shroud) can get it done against anyone on this list......but he just doesn't show up enough. And that's that really. Naruto's taijutsu just isn't very note worthy otherwise....


Theres my opinion on the matter.
I would give you plus reps if i knew how i really should learn how lol
i agree with what u said 100% and also bout the naruto part
many people dont realize that kyubi naruto (without the shroud) is a speed powerhouse and can keep up with weightless lee no prob...thats not all his taijutsu isn't as perfected as lee's but its awesome in that form (see him pounding sasuke with sharingan...that was a feat)
i wish kishi used more of that kyuubi transformation than the others where naruto has tails because this one (without the shroud) i think it's the best---no side effects of burn...increased everything from analytical abilities to speed for naruto...faster reflexes and stuff its uber in its category

[kazuma_uzumaki]

haha it's rather unfair how Lee is the only " normal" one of these people. Everyone has some special power they can access not so hard except Lee ( Unless you count the gates)

[Alterno]

Taijutsu is close quarters combat. It's non-ninjutsu or genjutsu.

Either way, Sasuke's the fastest, Sasuke's likely the strongest.

http://uploadpsd.com/file/18378.jpg

Anyway, being the fastest doesn't mean being the best and if you consider that in the first part Lee was fastest than Sasuke but Neji's taejutsu was the finest, we never saw neji being fast in the manga or anime. So being the fastest not necessarily means being the strongest of fastest. However some people says that the Byakuugan can see fast movements... just becase Neji said that Hinata was watching up at Naruto and then watched down floor in a few seconds, altought this still remains unconfirmed.

[Jehuty]

http://uploadpsd.com/file/18378.jpg

Anyway, being the fastest doesn't mean being the best and if you consider that in the first part Lee was fastest than Sasuke but Neji's taejutsu was the finest, we never saw neji being fast in the manga or anime. So being the fastest not necessarily means being the strongest of fastest. However some people says that the Byakuugan can see fast movements... just becase Neji said that Hinata was watching up at Naruto and then watched down floor in a few seconds, altought this still remains unconfirmed.
It's not merely fastest in footspeed. It's also speed in reflexes, something which Neji has or had the advantage in. Naruto drawing upon the fox chakra, however, showed that at similar speeds (kaiten versus a lunge), sufficient power can overcome.

[Decorus]

No Neji did not have superior reflexes or speed over Naruto.

Despite Naruto making it very clear what he was going to do Neji barely managed to use his Kaiten up before Naruto hit him. Naruto charged straight at him from across the arena. Another second and there would have been nothing Neji could do. Even then Naruto despite taking the worst of the damage was in better shape then Neji was.
For the record go back and review Naruto might have been using Kyuubi Chakra, but it was all Naruto no Kyuubi eyes at all.

[Oblivion]

In all honesty I simply believe Lee isn't talented enough to compare to Sasuke and Neiji. The second either one surpass him he'll never catch them. In my opinion Le was never better than Neiji and obviously isn't on his level now as Neiji is a Jounin and Sasuke has surpassed Lee Taijutsu wise after that month break between the Chuunin exam without Lee's use of the gates and Sasuke has gotten really really strong in a really really short time.

Lee may not have talent, but he works hard and with passion and thats the reason he is so strong.
lee has more strength then any of them. he does nothing but trains strength, his body is trained for over 10 years on strength.
and thats also the reason he can take more and stronger hits then any of the others.

so in taijutsu he clearly has the advantage strength and endurance wise.

what is left? Speed. 4 gates: GODLIKE!!^^


gah quite spreading misinformation people, Sasuke does not have kusanagi, he has a regular sword. ::glares at oblivion:: lol

neuroff showed you already, but you showed have already known coz in the battle against deidara, sasuke was able to stretch it. i dont htink there are a lot of swords lying around with the ability to stretch^^


I think people assume there is only one sword of Kusanagi, but there actually seems to be multiple swords of Kusanagi.

i guess, either oro copied it or it really is oro's. but multiple kusangi's? nah there are never two same swords in any story^^

[Jehuty]

Lee may not have talent, but he works hard and with passion and thats the reason he is so strong.
lee has more strength then any of them. he does nothing but trains strength, his body is trained for over 10 years on strength.
and thats also the reason he can take more and stronger hits then any of the others.

so in taijutsu he clearly has the advantage strength and endurance wise.

what is left? Speed. 4 gates: GODLIKE!!^^


neuroff showed you already, but you showed have already known coz in the battle against deidara, sasuke was able to stretch it. i dont htink there are a lot of swords lying around with the ability to stretch^^



i guess, either oro copied it or it really is oro's. but multiple kusangi's? nah there are never two same swords in any story^^
Endurance? Naruto all the way, hands down.

[Oblivion]

Endurance? Naruto all the way, hands down.

well i am speaking of who can endure more hits. and lee's body all the way.

[Jehuty]

well i am speaking of who can endure more hits. and lee's body all the way.
Naruto got a fist made of lightning through his shoulder and lung and still managed to beat the crap out of the guy who did it. Lee may be tough, but the Kyuubi gives Naruto higher endurance than anyone.

[Dice]

But Lee is the only one who was able to stand AFTER being unconscious XD


If we don't consider the Kagebunshin as part of his style (Naruto's the only one who can use them in such a way), then we shouldn't count Byakugan or Sharingan.

As lons as he can use them without using any seals it should count this way.

And just to clear the fact up. Lee is very talented. So to say he has the most talent in struggeling hard^^

[3shinkyo3]

I think it is really hard to decide who is better in the use of taijutsu. Obviously i think naruto is the worse as he has very little style and only makes it effective by dramatically increasing his numbers, but we have seen that sasuke has already shown that his taijutsu was better and could handle multiple narutos in the anime/manga where they were fighting on the roof of the hospital.

I think lee would be third only because of the negative effects of his taijutsu has on his body when he pushes himself too far. However i think that his speed and skill is amazing and would rank higher if not against sasuke and neji

Really cant decide who is better at taijutsu out of neji and sasuke both have perfected their own style and are capable of using it in a very lethal manner.

[MegaX]

But Lee is the only one who was able to stand AFTER being unconscious XD



As lons as he can use them without using any seals it should count this way.

And just to clear the fact up. Lee is very talented. So to say he has the most talent in struggeling hard^^

But Neji uses seals with his Byakugan. :P

[Jehuty]

But Neji uses seals with his Byakugan. :P
Naruto doesn't necessarily use the cross-seal. He does it by just gathering chakra in the battle with Kiba.

[gold349]

Definitely Lee, my opinion, It is the only jutsu he can perform and out of all the mentioned, has trained in taijutsu solely, others have to train in other fields, his speed is unbelievable, power and growth in the field of taijutsu has to be above others just for that reason alone, stamina has to be converted to chakra to perform other jutsu's, Lee would be still standing long after others have collapsed from using up all there's.

[sabuk-demon]

lee got the body 4 it the brains when he does it
and powerfull fast in firm with kicks an stuff.and has
maybe the most endurance to just keep goin.

1.sasuke can only keep up because of the sharingan
allows him to match there moves kinda like jeet-kune-do.
so basicly copyin.
2.naruto is just a freestyler he just do what he
can for the moment in just dive into his blows an streatgy.
he just got them shadow clones comein left an right to throw them
off and smack the real one comes outa no where.beside almost everyone
can see his tai-jutsu when he dnt got them.
3.neji is sick in tai-jutsu and everything.but the gates could take that
out.and neji can move swift smartly and land almost every hit.but lee can maybe move
a litte to fast. but yeah lee well i say is the best in tai jutsu.but mainly gai is the father of
it

[Oblivion]

well gai is godlike in taijutsu. ^^

[DragonMoonZ]

Rock lee!!!!! Reminiscing back to the time i first watched the Rock Lee vs. Gaara....... I creamed my pants over that episode.....

[dragon2021]

If you are just talking in the terms of that system I would say Rock Lee. I think Naruto right now could benefit from better taijusrsu. Just think if Naruto could use it as good as Rock lee or Neji.

[Windmillblade]

i don't know if any body watched the fillers but there was a part where rock lee was doing serious training with naruto and he was kicking butt. And a part where lee was fighting gai regular and with the gates on almost equal footing.

[Jehuty]

If you are just talking in the terms of that system I would say Rock Lee. I think Naruto right now could benefit from better taijusrsu. Just think if Naruto could use it as good as Rock lee or Neji.
If Naruto could use Taijutsu well, it would be amazing. His kagebunshin constantly burst because he just kinda tries to dog pile, but if he were skilled, they'd last longer and he'd have a better advantage.

[Oblivion]

i don't know if any body watched the fillers but there was a part where rock lee was doing serious training with naruto and he was kicking butt. And a part where lee was fighting gai regular and with the gates on almost equal footing.

noone watches filler^^


If Naruto could use Taijutsu well, it would be amazing. His kagebunshin constantly burst because he just kinda tries to dog pile, but if he were skilled, they'd last longer and he'd have a better advantage.

well he should better start now real basic training or it migthbe too late

[taimoor2]

Sasuke cannot have worse taijutsu than Rock Lee. Remember, Sasuke is a Kage Level Ninja, Rock Lee is a Chunnin. Sasuke has Sharingan which helps him a lot in taijutsu. Also, why allow rock lee to open gates? That is not normal and grants him power for a very very short period of time during which it is next to impossible to beat a super strong user as was adequately shown in fight with Gaara. Also, opening the gates makes it extremely painful, allowing the opponent to exploit openings. In taijutsu if you stress your body, you cannot fight efficiently. We saw this when Lee's muscles were being ripped open and in pain he missed Gaara escaping his jutsu!

Neji's Taijutsu is super. Without gates lee cannot hope to defeat Neji. It has been shown that Rock Lee never won from Neji in previous encounters and opening gates was his trump card to defeat Neji but opening gates will again create openings and Neji with his byakuggan will surely exploit them.

Naruto's Taijutsu is pretty poor, I must agree to that so I would rank them like this:

1-Sasuke
2-Neji
3-Rock Lee
4- Naruto

I think Lee will eventually master drunken fist and that would become his real strength. Gates are only useful to a certain limit or against slightly stronger opponents than you like 30% Kisame was slightly stronger than Guy so he was able to defeat him by opening gates...

[Jehuty]

Sasuke cannot have worse taijutsu than Rock Lee. Remember, Sasuke is a Kage Level Ninja, Rock Lee is a Chunnin. Sasuke has Sharingan which helps him a lot in taijutsu. Also, why allow rock lee to open gates? That is not normal and grants him power for a very very short period of time during which it is next to impossible to beat a super strong user as was adequately shown in fight with Gaara. Also, opening the gates makes it extremely painful, allowing the opponent to exploit openings. In taijutsu if you stress your body, you cannot fight efficiently. We saw this when Lee's muscles were being ripped open and in pain he missed Gaara escaping his jutsu!

Neji's Taijutsu is super. Without gates lee cannot hope to defeat Neji. It has been shown that Rock Lee never won from Neji in previous encounters and opening gates was his trump card to defeat Neji but opening gates will again create openings and Neji with his byakuggan will surely exploit them.

Naruto's Taijutsu is pretty poor, I must agree to that so I would rank them like this:

1-Sasuke
2-Neji
3-Rock Lee
4- Naruto

I think Lee will eventually master drunken fist and that would become his real strength. Gates are only useful to a certain limit or against slightly stronger opponents than you like 30% Kisame was slightly stronger than Guy so he was able to defeat him by opening gates...
I believe Naruto post-Kakuzu is actually quite the formidable foe, even an S-Class (or Kage) Ninja.

[henrikoez]

in this manga, Kishimoto make it looks like Sasuke is the best ninja. He can see the other's skill so easily and copied them like a baby. I don't like that kind of character, too superior. Naruto can only depend on Kyuubi, screw him. Lee and Neji are my respected figures in taijutsu, they are the best but i think Neji is better that Lee.

[Oblivion]

Neji is better then Lee. but that is also the reason why gai showed lee how the gate works. if he is ever in trouble he can use them.

and sasuke is right now superpwnbiatch but soon enough he will reach maximum power and wont get stronger anymore.

[henrikoez]

At last who has great mind. I thought everyone is in love with Sasuke, everbody praises him. He is a loser, he can't stronger by himself, not just like Itachi. What can he be proud of? I will never say that he is a taijutsu master or else. Definitely Neji is better, he is so great with his gentle fist, awesome. Lee will be very strong if he can use the eight gates like Gai did with Kisame.

[Jehuty]

Neji is better then Lee. but that is also the reason why gai showed lee how the gate works. if he is ever in trouble he can use them.

and sasuke is right now superpwnbiatch but soon enough he will reach maximum power and wont get stronger anymore.
And... thus he will be weaker?

"Naruto can't do anything without the Kyuubi so screw him"?

Neji can't do anything without the Byakugan. Naruto's use of kagebunshin is just as integral and natural in his fighting style as the Sharingan and Byakugan are to their users. Lee's eight gates are the same.

[Dice]

But Byakugan and the gates improve the quality of the taijutsu whereas kabebunshin only improves the quantity. Sure it makes Naruto a lot stronger but his taijutsu isn't getting any better if you know what I mean.

[Decorus]

Actually Kage Bunshin improves the quality as well. As for his taijutsu getting better, well if Kakashi has to fight him with Sharingan activated to stand a chance when Naruto is just playing around I'd say his taijutsu has improved significantly.

KageBunshin is much more powerful then sharingan or byakugan in Naruto's hands when he uses it properly.

Kage Bunshin is an offensive, defensive, movement, distraction, intelligence gathering, and of course movement nullification jutsu. There are so many more things Naruto can do with it then just create a bunch of Bunshin and attack.

[Karma]

If we don't consider the Kagebunshin as part of his style (Naruto's the only one who can use them in such a way), then we shouldn't count Byakugan or Sharingan.
I agreed with you...

I think alot of people trying to make Kage bunshin less important than the sharigan.. and neji & sasuke uses there bloodline limit more often than Naruto or just the same...

Kage Bunshin only can used by someone like naruto to its full potential..
it also pawn Sharigan & Byakugan if used correctly...

trust me... Kishi is smart....

we already saw what happen with neji vs Naruto.. and how he couldn't tell the difference....

Sharigan VS Kagebunshin is just the same..

Sasuke could only tell who was the real naruto. only because he was part of there team for a long time... Next time sasuke and Naruto he won't know.. because Naruto style has change alot.. and hes much more mature...

[Oblivion]

this topic is about who has better taijutsu:
so sharingan and Byukugan shouldn't count, just as kagebunshin shouldnt. only taijutsu abilities.
gates is taijutsu only ability. it increases strenght and speed and so that one has greater impact with taijutsu, but coz its an unfair GODMODE i wont count it in, coz its about style and this is no style but cheating, anyone who can open 4 or even more gates would kill his enemy (gaara survived coz of his bazillionliter sand compressed on his body).
kagebunshin doesnt make naruto himself better in taijutsu.
that he even has to use Dog pile techniques proves he has a bad taijutsu.


but a non-genjutsu-nunjutsu battle is totally diffrent. here everyone can use anything besides gen and nin jutsu:

sharingan helps to predict movement and so avoid hits and even copy the enemies style and moves.

byakugan seals chakra points so that the enemies cant concentrate chakra in his palm anymore to have more impact with his hits and also cant use chakra to endure more hits.

Kagebunshin, i dunno wether this should be count as ninjutsu or not, well naruto cant do anything else, so i'd count it in.
Bunshin helps Naruto over his bad taijutsu. Its the usage that counts not the numbers.
(Sasuke just blasted the lot apart with Gokyaku no jutsu, neji and kimimaru could easily deal with lots of naruto)
but fact is, naruto has to use his bunshins to land a Kyubi enhanced Punch (as in Sasuke vs. Naruto) or a Rasengan to even harm the enemy, (naruto rengan was easily blocked by sasuke on the rooftop)
coz we wont count kyubi mode nor Rasengan, naruto is in much trouble coz his punches don't really have much impact.

Lee normal:
pray for sharingan and Neji's gentle fist style is better this his rough style.

Lee in drunkenfist:
unpredictable by Sharingan and comes as a total surprise. its also very wild, hard and is able to avoid on surprisingly way. and even if hit, lee wont bother but carry on. Drunkenfist can be dealt with theoretically but the chances are very bleak.

Lee with gates:
TOO FAST
TOO STRONG
WU TANG YOUR FOES !!!

[piscesking]

Rock lee all the way.............with his 8 gate mode he will rip the body parts of the opponent.............

[Razh]

Lee has only physical training and uses nothing but taijutsu, while others use different skills, Lee can devote totally to it. So, naturally he's better in it than anyone else. That's his advantage. He doesn't have Kyuubi or Sharingan or Byakugan, but since he trains almost constantly, he has more stamina than any one of them.
That's why I think, if he fought with any one of them using only strenght and speed, he would eventually win.
Oh, and about chakra gates. It's no cheating. The fact that Lee, who can't use anything but taijutsu can open them, means that anyone else could do it with enough physicall training.
So, you can't rally put chakra gates in same league as Kyuubi, Sharingan and Byakugan.

[Oblivion]

To open gates is a technique that one has to learn and its like doping. and doping is cheating.

it increases you physical attributes. it doesnt make you a better fighter. anyone could open gates and beat the crap out of his enemy, but wouldnt make them great taijutsu fighter.

so its kinda like cheating

so beside the things i posted above is there anything else to be added?

[piscesking]

so you are saying that using technique is cheating...........

[Oblivion]

so you are saying that using technique is cheating...........
this certain technique, yes.

BUT i was replying on the following comment:


The fact that Lee, who can't use anything but taijutsu can open them, means that anyone else could do it with enough physicall training.

i was just saying that its not like lee cant do anything besides taijutsu, but to open the gates is a special technique that needs to be learned and not everyone and anybody can use it. you have to train for it with at least so much effort that you are to have some amount of skill.^^

btw: my colour is red too^^

[ZeroPatience]

To open gates is a technique that one has to learn and its like doping. and doping is cheating.

it increases you physical attributes. it doesnt make you a better fighter. anyone could open gates and beat the crap out of his enemy, but wouldnt make them great taijutsu fighter.

so its kinda like cheating

It's like doping in that it increases the overall strength but it isn't doping! Thus it is not cheating. It is a skill he has put the time in to learn, not everyone can do it like you say. Why shouldn't it count?

I'm surprised more people haven't said Lee. All he can do is Taijutsu, of course his pure Taijutsu is superior to the others. If your going to count Byakugan and Sharingan then why not Lee's gates? He's a genius of hard work remember ;) ? Also all of his Techniques can be used as they are Taijutsu. But no chidori for Sasuke!

As others have said Naruto relies on his clones to combo his enemy, no clones and his h2h expectancy is signicantly reduced and since Kage bunshin is a Jutsu I don't think that should be a factor in "who has better Taijutsu". Also bare in mind Lee is a Taijutsu expert and can read his opponents close combat attacks fairy well without any magic eyes :)

Sasuke is a great all rounder, sure his Taijutsu is great but we haven't seen him fight much with Taijutsu since the time-skip against any half-decent h2h fighter besides Itachi (which was kinda brief). The sharingan reading all your opponents movements is a giant big advantage to have but it's use againt the drunken fist is unclear. It would be a good fight because I believe Lee's Taijutsu to be superior but Sasuke would be able to read his movements. Do you think Lee is faster than Sasuke? ;) That would be a big part of the equation for me. Also if Gai can read an opponents movements through his feet I would have thought he would have passed that on to Lee knowing that Lee may very well face a Sharingan opponent in the future.

Neji has a blind spot and we have no evidence that he is a fast mover. Lee and Sasuke are blazing fast. He relies heavily on his Byakugan and his being able to release chakra from all over his body. Gentle fist actually forces his chakra into his opponents chakra points and while he has a close to a 360 view he can't predict his opponents movement and may have trouble hitting the points while the opponent is moving so quickly.

If the 8 gates are included, Lee hands down as opening the 8th gate is supposed to give you Kage level fighting. Without the 8 gates it's between Sasuke and Lee for me.

- ZP

[Oblivion]

Actually, Neji is pretty fast, at least as fast as sasuke, pre time skip he was so fast that he could deal with the 100's of spider coming at him in his fight against the spider seal user.



If your going to count Byakugan and Sharingan then why not Lee's gates? He's a genius of hard work remember ? Also all of his Techniques can be used as they are Taijutsu. But no chidori for Sasuke!

well i said it in my big post, chidori is a ninjutsu, so no.

but i still think the gates are just doping. they also don't represent any style or show how good someone of a fighter is. its learn to open a gate and smack someone dead. even konohamaru could be dangerous if he knew how to. but does it help figure out whether konohamaru is a good taijutsu fighter? no.

[Dice]

I myself think that it shouldn't be counted as drug. Just because it is something internal. And it improves just the usage of its natural ressources.
Whereas kagebunshin doens't improve a single Naruto at all. Sure his overall fighting still improves far. But every single individual will still be not any faster, stronger or will have a better ability in taijutsu. Sharingan, Byakugan and the gates just improve the individuals abilities.
The only thing that has improves taijutsu-wise when Naruto is using his bunshins is that he came up with his own version of the rendan...but that's everything.
And seriously, comparing Naruto with Lee, Sasuke and Neji only taijutsu-wise is like comparing a streetfighter with a fighting sports legend. Sure the streetfighter might be strong but his fighting style is nothing I would consider a very skilled fighting style.
Naruto might be a very strong shinobi but his taijutsu is nowhere near the taijutsu of the other three.

If you are not counting sharingan, byakugan, the gates, kyuubi, weapons etc. I think Lee has the best taijutsu. If it's not the best I would say it is at least the smoothest XD.
But I think byakugan, sharingan (only the taijutsu improvements like better sight etc.), weapons (although this one is very questionable) and even the kyuubi should count when they are using taijutsu because it just improves their individual taijutsu-fighting-style and completes their style (Lee's self-destruction style, Neji's chakra-flow-sealing-style, Sasuke's just-being-fast-and-accuracy-style and Naruto's brawl-style)

[Oblivion]

nd even the kyuubi should count when they are using taijutsu

NOT!
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/291/04-05/

if you count kyubi then Naruto is auto-win. it takes a Orochimaru or a Jiraya to hold such a beast back.

[Jehuty]

NOT!
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/291/04-05/

if you count kyubi then Naruto is auto-win. it takes a Orochimaru or a Jiraya to hold such a beast back.
Yeah, but what of eyes-only Naruto who owned Kakuzu?

[Oblivion]

Yeah, but what of eyes-only Naruto who owned Kakuzu?

i'll just repost something i posted a while before:

fact is, naruto has to use his bunshins to land a Kyubi enhanced Punch (as in Sasuke vs. Naruto) or a Rasengan to even harm the enemy, (naruto rengan was easily blocked by sasuke on the rooftop)

coz we wont count kyubi mode nor Rasengan, naruto is in much trouble coz his normal punches don't really have much impact.

see naruto owned kakuzu coz he had some uber ninjutstu technique.

(and btw kakuzu fought miserable against naruto, against kakashi he was awesome, but naruto totally different, that's why i never choose the fight as a major example)

[Jehuty]

i'll just repost something i posted a while before:

fact is, naruto has to use his bunshins to land a Kyubi enhanced Punch (as in Sasuke vs. Naruto) or a Rasengan to even harm the enemy, (naruto rengan was easily blocked by sasuke on the rooftop)

coz we wont count kyubi mode nor Rasengan, naruto is in much trouble coz his normal punches don't really have much impact.

see naruto owned kakuzu coz he had some uber ninjutstu technique.

(and btw kakuzu fought miserable against naruto, against kakashi he was awesome, but naruto totally different, that's why i never choose the fight as a major example)
What are you talking about? Kakuzu was the same the whole way.

[Oblivion]

What are you talking about? Kakuzu was the same the whole way.

lets not get off-topic ^^

(if you really want to discuss it PM me)

[Decorus]

Kakuzu vrs Naruto was no different, except Naruto forced Kakuzu to fight defensively, but there are no good examples of either Naruto's, Rock Lee's, Neji or Sasuke's Taijutsu in the second half, the only Person whose Taijutsu has really been showcased was Sakura's.

We know Naruto's Taijutsu is easily equal to Kakashi so he is drasticly better then he was before.

If you take jutsu and bloodline limits out of the equation it really comes down to Neji or Rock Lee as Sasuke relies heavily on jutsu just as much as Naruto does or even Sakura who I noticed was missing despite her rather lethal attack capabilities.


As for Kage Bunshin not enhancing Naruto, well you don't seem to understand how they can be used.

If an attack is headed at Naruto and he normally can't move to avoid it he can create a Kage Bunshin to maneuver himself around. If Naruto needs to jump 1200 feet into the air he can do it by using created Kage Bunshin as steps to jump higher and higher. An opponent is out of reach well he can use Kage Bunshin to extend his reach ala the human ladder chain. Explosive attack well Kage Bunshin can be used to take the brunt of the attack leaving him unharmed. He could even fight in mid air for an extended period of time by creating Kage Bunshin to act as temporary ground for him. Using Kage Bunshin like he did against Kakuzu he can memorize his opponents attack patterns making it impossible for them to land an attack against him when he finally decides to fight.


The other major factor with Naruto is Kyuubi will eventually decide to get involved with its self preservation instincts.

In pure Taijutsu it comes down to Neji vrs Rock Lee and Rock Lee has even stated he can't beat Neji.....

[ZeroPatience]

In pure Taijutsu it comes down to Neji vrs Rock Lee and Rock Lee has even stated he can't beat Neji.....

When was that? Wasn't it pre-time skip? I'm not convinced pre-timeskip Neji could beat a gated Lee, I think Lee was talking about no gates because of Gai's rule about using them or something O.o (<---memory is going fuzzy) If your talking about without gates and no alcohol for Lee then yeah. But Post-timeskip we're all just guessing moreso than usual. Fighting yourself isn't exactly the best way to show off your skills.


Actually, Neji is pretty fast, at least as fast as sasuke, pre time skip he was so fast that he could deal with the 100's of spider coming at him in his fight against the spider seal user.

But that was stationary using his 64 palm strike if I remember correctly. I'm primarily talking about travel movement.

- ZP

[Jehuty]

When was that? Wasn't it pre-time skip? I'm not convinced pre-timeskip Neji could beat a gated Lee, I think Lee was talking about no gates because of Gai's rule about using them or something O.o (<---memory is going fuzzy) If your talking about without gates and no alcohol for Lee then yeah. But Post-timeskip we're all just guessing moreso than usual. Fighting yourself isn't exactly the best way to show off your skills.



But that was stationary using his 64 palm strike if I remember correctly. I'm primarily talking about travel movement.

- ZP
Footspeed isn't everything. All the special strikes of the Hyuga style are suited for battle on a pivoting stance. Hell, the Byakugan alone is suited for that.

Check it out:
Kaiten - A spinning-top rotation in a single spot.
Divination - A flurry of strikes 64 or perhaps a multiple (anime only) that focuses on the opponent being in the move's range.
Hinata's anime only Protection of Hakke - Essentially one orb of sharp strikes.
Hakke Kuushou - A cannonball Juuken suited for long range.

With the infinite clarity of the Byakugan, a bouncing ball like Lee in gate mode wouldn't easily land a powerful hit on Neji in Part II.

[Huey Freeman]

Lee has to be number 1 in this list. Period. He should ultimately surpass Might Guy given the whole "next generation gets stronger" theme, right? Guy is the Taijutsu master and Lee will surpass him. With the gates open, no human can match Lee's speed for certain, and only a few could possibly match his strength. Tsunade and/or Sakura.

Naruto could avoid Neji's hits to some degree during the Chunin exams so I'd imagine other higher level ninja can do the same now. Plus, if an opponent is out of his range, he's pretty much nullified since he cannot approach with the speed Lee can. So Neji < Lee imo.

Sasuke has great speed, almost a match for Lee's normal speed maybe about the same, so he can make quick approaches and strikes, but still, as far as pure taijutsu, I doubt he could match Lee in speed or strength. Not to mention, given Guy's ability against Sharingan, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a gates open Lee could beat Sasuke CS2 with some striking blows or at least knock him around a lot. Remeber just because you can see a move coming, doesn't mean your body has the speed to react. So Lee > Sasuke

Now for Naruto. Shadow Clones = ninjutsu so to me that's out, but the Fox's cloak is a different story. I don't know how fast he is, but I doubt it's as fast as Lee, however, the fox cloak compensates for that by being living chakra that can counter almost any attack(See Orochimaru getting cut in half after punching 4 tails Naruto). This one is the toughest to me, but I still lean towards Lee simply because he relies soley on taijutsu, meaning his own strength and speed with no hidden power ups (gates are just another part of every human body in Narutoverse).

[ZeroPatience]

Footspeed isn't everything. All the special strikes of the Hyuga style are suited for battle on a pivoting stance. Hell, the Byakugan alone is suited for that.

Check it out:
Kaiten - A spinning-top rotation in a single spot.
Divination - A flurry of strikes 64 or perhaps a multiple (anime only) that focuses on the opponent being in the move's range.
Hinata's anime only Protection of Hakke - Essentially one orb of sharp strikes.
Hakke Kuushou - A cannonball Juuken suited for long range.

With the infinite clarity of the Byakugan, a bouncing ball like Lee in gate mode wouldn't easily land a powerful hit on Neji in Part II.

To make a long argument short, I disagree :p

- ZP

[Jehuty]

Lee has to be number 1 in this list. Period. He should ultimately surpass Might Guy given the whole "next generation gets stronger" theme, right? Guy is the Taijutsu master and Lee will surpass him. With the gates open, no human can match Lee's speed for certain, and only a few could possibly match his strength. Tsunade and/or Sakura.

Naruto could avoid Neji's hits to some degree during the Chunin exams so I'd imagine other higher level ninja can do the same now. Plus, if an opponent is out of his range, he's pretty much nullified since he cannot approach with the speed Lee can. So Neji < Lee imo.

Sasuke has great speed, almost a match for Lee's normal speed maybe about the same, so he can make quick approaches and strikes, but still, as far as pure taijutsu, I doubt he could match Lee in speed or strength. Not to mention, given Guy's ability against Sharingan, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a gates open Lee could beat Sasuke CS2 with some striking blows or at least knock him around a lot. Remeber just because you can see a move coming, doesn't mean your body has the speed to react. So Lee > Sasuke

Now for Naruto. Shadow Clones = ninjutsu so to me that's out, but the Fox's cloak is a different story. I don't know how fast he is, but I doubt it's as fast as Lee, however, the fox cloak compensates for that by being living chakra that can counter almost any attack(See Orochimaru getting cut in half after punching 4 tails Naruto). This one is the toughest to me, but I still lean towards Lee simply because he relies soley on taijutsu, meaning his own strength and speed with no hidden power ups (gates are just another part of every human body in Narutoverse).Again, Naruto's Kagebunshin have to be in the same category as the Sharingan and Byakugan as they are specific to him.

Neji's Jounin level now, and there's a reason the Hyuuga are considered the strongest clan after the Uchiha. We didn't see how anyone improved on Team Guy in Part II, but I'd be willing to say that Neji could take Lee in an all-out fight. He's probably found some way to use a gate or two, as Kakashi (Jounin Level) definitely has.

To make a long argument short, I disagree :p

- ZPThat... that's not an argument, that's... just disagreeing.

[Neuroff]

Neji is a jounin, Lee is a chuunin. They are both taijutsu specialists. Should be pretty clear who's stronger.

[Spike Spiegal]

I'm sure they don't promote chuunins solely on how good their Taijutsu is.

Lee is definately my pick, but Neji would be next.

everybody has basically mentioned everything I would have so...

Master of Goken(Strong Fist)
Can open 5 gates and possibly after timeskip(7gates is my guess when and if we get to see him in an all out battle)
Master of suiken(Drunken Fist)
extremely strong
extremely fast
extremely handsome?....I'll let you decide on that one...but I know what my answer is...

[Jehuty]

I'm sure they don't promote chuunins solely on how good their Taijutsu is.

Lee is definately my pick, but Neji would be next.

everybody has basically mentioned everything I would have so...

Master of Goken(Strong Fist)
Can open 5 gates and possibly after timeskip(7gates is my guess when and if we get to see him in an all out battle)
Master of suiken(Drunken Fist)
extremely strong
extremely fast
extremely handsome?....I'll let you decide on that one...but I know what my answer is...
No, probably not, if Shikamaru is any evidence, but the thing is, they're taijutsu specialists, so much so that we've never seen either of them use anything but that.

[bighawke5]

ppl keep bringin up kagebushins that naruto use to fight but that has nothing to do with naruto's taijutsu when he's at best
if u want to see naruto's taijutsu at best check him out at the battle of valley's end against sasuke: the naruto with the kyuubi eyes and no fox shroud or no tails owned in taijutsu and no one can deny that. his speed was as fast as lee without weights(not gated lee) but lee without weights

ppl seem to put naruto's tranformations in two groups :either kyuubi or normal(base) but its not so......there's three stages and we've seen them throughout the manga and anime.

1--There base naruto

2--then there's naruto with kyubi eyes with no tails that's fast as lee without weights (not gated lee) and has fast reflexes he's the one that owned sasuke in taijutsu just before sasuke gained the third tomoe and he's the same one that owned haku in speed and taijutsu...i dont count the neji fight because naruto's eyes were still blue in that fight... this kyubi naruto has no tails and no shrouds but his fighting style is awesome without even the need of bushins he's taijutsu is amazing in that form (he's the kyubi naruto we see own in the naruto movies..because base naruto cant do anything flashy taijutsu related and base naruto's speed is slow)

3--and then we have the third transformation of naruto with tails where the wicked chakra of kyuubi actually hurts him in that transformation and he has tails and is leathal but doesnt really use taijutsu much instead he uses chakra generated attacks

the 2nd naruto transformation is the one we should put up here in taijutsu disscussion since he's the type more suited for that category if u still doubt that number 2 naruto then watch him against haku and sasuke(right after sasuke pierced his heart with chidori) even in the naruto fillers he owns in that form and in the movies too but lets keep the fillers out im just trying to prove a point.


now im not saying he's the best taijutsu fighter but he isnt last per say i would consider rock lee 1st here because lee trains specifically in taijutsu and all his life and all his minutes are poured into improving taijutsu so he owns there no prob now neji and sasuke and naruto come under him in taijutsu since they never focused much on it as lee did....they may be fast and all when needed but the actual "strong fist" style that gai sensei knows is the same the lee knows and gai sensei is dangerous and has thought lee all lee himself knows
neji focused on his clan's fighting style and is improving it he has more chakra usage in his moves and is more focused on those since its the way his people fight by using their chakra to destroy various parts in the chakra internal system
lee used to be owned by neji because he didnt know that much bout taijutsu and all (as seen in his own flashbacks) but at the chunnin exams lee couldve defeated neji

[Spike Spiegal]

@Jehuty
Im just stating that logically fighting abilities,as seen in the chuunin exams, don't hold as much importance as lets say a strategic mind(Shikamaru) when promoting Ninja.

I don't feel that Neji's tai is at a point where he can be promoted to a jounin, where as Rock Lee's can't be. I do think that, as far as all around intelliegence is concerned, Neji is superior,and I think that, to me, that would be the outstanding factor, that would put Neji in as a jounin and exclude Lee.

[Decorus]

There is also Form 1B

Naruto using Kyuubi chakra without Kyuubi eyes. You see that twice once against Neji and the second time when he finishes off Gaara. You also forgot to mention he's tough enough to charge at full speed into Neji's whirl and come out better off then Neji. He was strong enough to shatter Haku's mirrors.

The problem Rock Lee has against Neji is he must avoid getting hit at all costs and he can't exactly power his way past the whirl. Then again even with his speed gated Neji can still hit him with his wind palm strikes before Lee can get into range. Lee is purely close combat while Neji is a close to mid range fighter.

[bighawke5]

There is also Form 1B

Naruto using Kyuubi chakra without Kyuubi eyes. You see that twice once against Neji and the second time when he finishes off Gaara. You also forgot to mention he's tough enough to charge at full speed into Neji's whirl and come out better off then Neji. He was strong enough to shatter Haku's mirrors.

The problem Rock Lee has against Neji is he must avoid getting hit at all costs and he can't exactly power his way past the whirl. Then again even with his speed gated Neji can still hit him with his wind palm strikes before Lee can get into range. Lee is purely close combat while Neji is a close to mid range fighter.

tru that i agree but this thread isnt who's better than who right? its who's a better taijutsu fighter right?
so if we cut out all the other stuff aside like the ultimate defense of neji and make him go against rock lee pure hand to hand no destroying someone's internal chakra system and we just go for physical taijutsu...and who can destroy each other physically without ninjutsu since this is about taijutsu only.....lee would own

[Jehuty]

tru that i agree but this thread isnt who's better than who right? its who's a better taijutsu fighter right?
so if we cut out all the other stuff aside like the ultimate defense of neji and make him go against rock lee pure hand to hand no destroying someone's internal chakra system and we just go for physical taijutsu...and who can destroy each other physically without ninjutsu since this is about taijutsu only.....lee would own
Gentle Fist is Taijutsu, defined by Guy, and is the strongest style of all.

[Spike Spiegal]

@Decorus
I agree that over-powering Neji is the best strategy to beat him, others would be a great long Distance fighter(Spider-guy) or a better user in Gentle Fist.

I think a Rock Lee vs. Neji would be amazing.
An advantage Rock Lee has is that if Neji closes all his chakra points, I still believe Rock Lee can still be effective to the point of weightless Rock Lee(no Gates), but, opening the gates may let you forecfully open your chakra points , that could definately be debated.

He also has Drunken Fist ....

[Jehuty]

@Decorus
I agree that over-powering Neji is the best strategy to beat him, others would be a great long Distance fighter(Spider-guy) or a better user in Gentle Fist.

I think a Rock Lee vs. Neji would be amazing.
An advantage Rock Lee has is that if Neji closes all his chakra points, I still believe Rock Lee can still be effective to the point of weightless Rock Lee(no Gates), but, opening the gates may let you forecfully open your chakra points , that could definately be debated.

He also has Drunken Fist ....
It's not that Rock Lee can't use chakra. He clearly does, as he stands on water in Part II. When the Tenketsu are closed, it shuts off nearly all movement. Note when Naruto gets hit by the sixty-four strikes, he can barely stand, and he's got the greatest stamina of them all.

[Spike Spiegal]

I know Lee uses chakra that's why I said it was debatable. I think I was confusing the Neji fight with the Kabuto fight...but very true...

[Huey Freeman]

Again, Naruto's Kagebunshin have to be in the same category as the Sharingan and Byakugan as they are specific to him.

Neji's Jounin level now, and there's a reason the Hyuuga are considered the strongest clan after the Uchiha. We didn't see how anyone improved on Team Guy in Part II, but I'd be willing to say that Neji could take Lee in an all-out fight. He's probably found some way to use a gate or two, as Kakashi (Jounin Level) definitely has.
That... that's not an argument, that's... just disagreeing.

I repeat: I still lean towards Lee simply because he relies soley on taijutsu, meaning his own strength and speed with no hidden power ups (gates are just another part of every human body in Narutoverse).

The question is "who has better taijutsu" right? In this group, that's Lee. He has maximized his human potential beyond that of anyone other than his master Guy. He has no bloodline limits and no insanely powerful malevolent beings living within him. He may not be the best overall fighter, but when it come to using your body to it's fullest potential...nobody does it better.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/37/Naruto37-18/

Footnote says Taijutsu = body skills.

[Jehuty]

I repeat: I still lean towards Lee simply because he relies soley on taijutsu, meaning his own strength and speed with no hidden power ups (gates are just another part of every human body in Narutoverse).

The question is "who has better taijutsu" right? In this group, that's Lee. He has maximized his human potential beyond that of anyone other than his master Guy. He has no bloodline limits and no insanely powerful malevolent beings living within him. He may not be the best overall fighter, but when it come to using your body to it's fullest potential...nobody does it better.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/37/Naruto37-18/

Footnote says Taijutsu = body skills.
Okay... and Gentle Fist is still considered Taijutsu.

[ZeroPatience]

That... that's not an argument, that's... just disagreeing.

I said to make Long disagreement/long argument/long debate short, I disagree, in other words I stick to what I originally said, Mr.Picky :o


Gentle Fist is Taijutsu, defined by Guy, and is the strongest style of all. That's true, but it still depends on the user. Neji is a genius type. He has near 360 vision so is unlikely to lose sight of Lee very easily (unless Lee moves too fast to be seen). But I don't think Lee is very likely to lose sight of Neji because the majority of the combat would be done face to face (Neji does have the seal-less distance attack but I think Lee could close the distance quite fast, not giving Neji a proper oppurtunity to use it). Gentle fist is superior purely for the fact that it closes off peoples chakra. You still have to hit people in the correct place for it to work. So face to face it's down to who has the better defense and can land the hits.

Neji can beat a non gates Lee, I agree. But depending on how many gates Lee can open I don't think anyone can say with any sort of certainty Lee can't beat Neji, gates are a crazy leap in power. Lee seemed to think at the Chuunin exam that the gates were a viable option in beating Neji if he got drawn against him. That was his specific Neji beating strategy and with that crazy speed he showed on Gaara (that from crowd responses seemed to freak out Neji a bit) I can't blame Lee for thinking it's a good way to beat him. Lee would have beaten Gaara if he didn't twitch like a sissy and give Gaara the chance to use the replacement technique. I wouldn't underestimate what Lee can do ;)

- ZP

[Neuroff]

Lee openly admits multiple times that Neji is stronger than him, closing his tenketsu WOULD affect his movements, and Neji outranks him. This isn't like Naruto's case where he doesn't get promoted because he hasn't been in the village. Neji and Lee have both been in the village, and Neji was the one who got promoted. Lee KNOWS his abilities with the gates, but STILL says Neji is stronger. What does that mean?

[Huey Freeman]

Okay... and Gentle Fist is still considered Taijutsu.

I agree that gentle fist is taijutsu, but there are two factors imo that give Lee the advantage for this particular question:

1. Without the enhanced vision of the byakugan giving one the ability to see chakra points, there could be no gentle fist. At least it would be far less effective as one would be guessing where chakra points are located. Byakugan is a part of Neji's body, but not a normal body in the narutoverse.

2. Neji has nowhere near as much foot speed as Lee and therefore he cannot quickly approach an opponent from a distance for an attack. If an opponent is outside his range, gentle fist is nullified. The same may apply to Lee, but his distance is far great since he can cover more ground in a lot less time.

Anywho, I'm repeating myself. You have you opinion, I have mine!;)

[Inkovic]

Lee will never be a Jounin. He could be a specialised Jounin but he will always be inferior to Neiji. Neiji's Taijutsu is invincible nearly in close combat situations. It'll take Kyuubi esque Chakra to defeat it.

[Dice]

Correct my if I wrong: Wasn't Naruto able to keep on fighting against Neji not only because there was a second chakra source which Neji didn't "stop" (but he might not be able just because the kyuubi's chakra is infinite, isnt it??).
So aktually everybody with a second, alternative source could surprise Neji but there are not many XD

And I think the reason why Lee wasn't promoted is indeed is lack of being able to do something else than taijutsu. Sure Neji and Lee are taijutsu-experts but the fact that Neji is a taijutsu-expert doesn't mean he can't use anything else (same with Gai). On the other hand Lee can't use anything else. That's why he even had problems becoming a genin. Without his mid-class-taijutsu (at this time) there wouldn't have been a chance to promote.
You can compare this situation with to students in school. Let's assume there are only three different subjects: math, language and sports. One of the students, let's call him Neji XD is great in sports (grade: 1-) and average in the other subjects (grades: 3+ - 4+). The other student let's call him Lee is even better in sports (grade: 1) but sucks at the other subjects (grades: 5). You can't go on to the next class if you have 2 "5". Maybe he could clearing one of these "5" but I think you can not become a elite-student with these kind of grades...
In this case Lee could still be better than Neji and the reason why one of this taijutsu specialists is a jounin and the other not would be explained.

And still I don't think that kagebunshin should be in the same kategory like byakugan, sharingan and the gates. The last three just makes the individuum stronger whereas kagebunshin doesn't make the individuum itself stronger (remember it's not that any clone itself gets better they just have a wider range of technics they can use. It's like you are perfectly fighting along with someone who is as strong, nothing more.)

Someone mentioned that Neji uses handseals for his byakugan or gentle fist (sorry don't remember which one it was and who said so) but I can't remember. But kagebunshin are clearly a ninjutsu...where you have to use hand seals. An other reason why it shouldn't count.

I don't understand why people are trying to make Naruto something he isn't. It's not like anybody is saying he is weak or something like that. Most of the people are just saying that his taijutsu sucks compared to the taijutsu of the other three. Taijutsu just doesn't belong to his strenghts. But it's the strenght of Neji, Lee and Sasuke.
I don't think that even the elite-mega-super-über-shinobi Minato was the best or near the best in all categories. For example I can't imagine him being a genjutsuexpert. He might even suck in this category (compared to the rest of his skills) but still he was the best.

I don't want to insult anybody or the opinion of anybody. I just hope you don't understand anything wrong I wrote.

[Jehuty]

Correct my if I wrong: Wasn't Naruto able to keep on fighting against Neji not only because there was a second chakra source which Neji didn't "stop" (but he might not be able just because the kyuubi's chakra is infinite, isnt it??).
So aktually everybody with a second, alternative source could surprise Neji but there are not many XD

And I think the reason why Lee wasn't promoted is indeed is lack of being able to do something else than taijutsu. Sure Neji and Lee are taijutsu-experts but the fact that Neji is a taijutsu-expert doesn't mean he can't use anything else (same with Gai). On the other hand Lee can't use anything else. That's why he even had problems becoming a genin. Without his mid-class-taijutsu (at this time) there wouldn't have been a chance to promote.
You can compare this situation with to students in school. Let's assume there are only three different subjects: math, language and sports. One of the students, let's call him Neji XD is great in sports (grade: 1-) and average in the other subjects (grades: 3+ - 4+). The other student let's call him Lee is even better in sports (grade: 1) but sucks at the other subjects (grades: 5). You can't go on to the next class if you have 2 "5". Maybe he could clearing one of these "5" but I think you can not become a elite-student with these kind of grades...
In this case Lee could still be better than Neji and the reason why one of this taijutsu specialists is a jounin and the other not would be explained.

And still I don't think that kagebunshin should be in the same kategory like byakugan, sharingan and the gates. The last three just makes the individuum stronger whereas kagebunshin doesn't make the individuum itself stronger (remember it's not that any clone itself gets better they just have a wider range of technics they can use. It's like you are perfectly fighting along with someone who is as strong, nothing more.)

Someone mentioned that Neji uses handseals for his byakugan or gentle fist (sorry don't remember which one it was and who said so) but I can't remember. But kagebunshin are clearly a ninjutsu...where you have to use hand seals. An other reason why it shouldn't count.

I don't understand why people are trying to make Naruto something he isn't. It's not like anybody is saying he is weak or something like that. Most of the people are just saying that his taijutsu sucks compared to the taijutsu of the other three. Taijutsu just doesn't belong to his strenghts. But it's the strenght of Neji, Lee and Sasuke.
I don't think that even the elite-mega-super-über-shinobi Minato was the best or near the best in all categories. For example I can't imagine him being a genjutsuexpert. He might even suck in this category (compared to the rest of his skills) but still he was the best.

I don't want to insult anybody or the opinion of anybody. I just hope you don't understand anything wrong I wrote.
Kagebunshin is completely different when used by Naruto. He's the only one who can use Mass Kagebunshin successfully, so in a way, it is like his own bloodline limit (here we go with the nitpickings). It's just a part of his style.

[Dice]

It shouldn't count if your are only speaking of taijutsu (at least that's my opinion). I agree that he is the only one who can do it that way and that it belongs to his overall fightingstyle but if you are just taking a look on his taijutsu it shouldn't count.

[Jehuty]

It shouldn't count if your are only speaking of taijutsu (at least that's my opinion). I agree that he is the only one who can do it that way and that it belongs to his overall fightingstyle but if you are just taking a look on his taijutsu it shouldn't count.
It's like he's fighting with multiple arms, that's all. It's still body blows.

[MegaX]

It shouldn't count if your are only speaking of taijutsu (at least that's my opinion). I agree that he is the only one who can do it that way and that it belongs to his overall fightingstyle but if you are just taking a look on his taijutsu it shouldn't count.

Then you're just gimping Naruto.

Each of these people has something that makes their fighting style work.

Lee has the Gates
Neji has Byakugan
Sasuke has Sharingan
Naruto has Kage Bunshin

It's not just a matter of whether they should be able to use it or not, but that each of their fighting styles is designed around that technique to enhance the taijutsu.

So by allowing the Gates, you're allowing Lee to use his Taijutsu to it's maximum potential as it was designed, same for Sasuke and Neji if you allow the Byakugan.

But if you take away Kage Bunshin, Naruto will always come last, because you've forbidden the thing that makes his style work.

[Oblivion]

Then you're just gimping Naruto.

Each of these people has something that makes their fighting style work.

Lee has the Gates
Neji has Byakugan
Sasuke has Sharingan
Naruto has Kage Bunshin

It's not just a matter of whether they should be able to use it or not, but that each of their fighting styles is designed around that technique to enhance the taijutsu.

Lee's, Sasuke's and Neji's taijutsu is better then Naruto's without taking any special ability into account. In a hand to hand combat Naruto's ass would SOOOO be kicked by any of the others. especially Lee's strong (and fast)fist and Neji's Gentlefist.

taking some super ability into account would make it not taijutsu anymore, coz gates and kagebunshin are Ninjutsu's. Bunshin more then gates but still.

i wll post my Real life argument again: anyone could defeat Bruce Lee if one multiplies himself 100 times. but does that make one a better taijutsu fighter then Bruce lee?

[MegaX]

Lee's, Sasuke's and Neji's taijutsu is better then Naruto's without taking any special ability into account. In a hand to hand combat Naruto's ass would SOOOO be kicked by any of the others. especially Lee's strong (and fast)fist and Neji's Gentlefist.

taking some super ability into account would make it not taijutsu anymore, coz gates and kagebunshin are Ninjutsu's. Bunshin more then gates but still.

i wll post my Real life argument again: anyone could defeat Bruce Lee if one multiplies himself 100 times. but does that make one a better taijutsu fighter then Bruce lee?

You've missed the point. Naruto can't be compared fairly because you're letting everyone else use the central focus of their Taijutsu, but not letting Naruto use his, which does actually help his taijutsu style.

And before you pull the dogpile and charge card, Naruto doesn't actually do that anymore. Just look at his fights with Kakshi and Kakuzu. He can transform them into weapons, have them push him out of the way if he can't dodge, use them as fight simulators and as feints.

Also, Neji can't use Gentle Fist without Byakugan, so taking out the central ability hurts him the most.

[Alterno]

I think everybody is heading towards who is the strongest instead who has the better tae jutsu or who is the best in tae jutsu. Neji has the best tae jutsu witjh or without chakra, Lee runs second, Sasuke runs third and Naruto in last...

not kagebunshin, not byakuugan, not chakra gates, not sharingan, etc..

It have been said that Hyuuga's tae jutsu is the best of Konoha...
Lee said that his goal is to beat Neji, in other words to defeat him...
Lee wiped the floor wtih Sasuke just with tae jutsu...
Naruto defeated Neji, but he used ninjutsu (Kagebunshin no jutsu), Kunais, taejutsu and Kyuubi's chakra...Overall neji is the best in taejutsu
Rock lee run seconds for being better than Sasuke and being faster.
Sasuke runs third for being good at it copying some of lee's movements
Naruto because his taejutsu isn't the best.

[Jehuty]

I think everybody is heading towards who is the strongest instead who has the better tae jutsu or who is the best in tae jutsu. Neji has the best tae jutsu witjh or without chakra, Lee runs second, Sasuke runs third and Naruto in last...

not kagebunshin, not byakuugan, not chakra gates, not sharingan, etc..

It have been said that Hyuuga's tae jutsu is the best of Konoha...
Lee said that his goal is to beat Neji, in other words to defeat him...
Lee wiped the floor wtih Sasuke just with tae jutsu...
Naruto defeated Neji, but he used ninjutsu (Kagebunshin no jutsu), Kunais, taejutsu and Kyuubi's chakra...Overall neji is the best in taejutsu
Rock lee run seconds for being better than Sasuke and being faster.
Sasuke runs third for being good at it copying some of lee's movements
Naruto because his taejutsu isn't the best.
Better than Sasuke? Sasuke's technique and power have been upgraded at least tenfold since his battle with Lee.

[gold349]

Earlier I said Lee was better at taijutsu than the others mentioned solely because in my opinion someone who solely practices one style would be better than those who would have to concentrate on other fields and that so far Guy has been shown to be really powerful and Lee would surpass him in this art but I came across a reference from Lee where he says that the Leaf village's strongest taijutsu style is the Hygua clans style. ch98 pg05, but as we have seen through out Naruto ranking and levels don't mean much, it depends on person, I would still give my vote to Lee as he shows the most inner desire to perform because he was completely written off from even becoming a shinobi, others have personal reasons and can excel, he has only himself to prove something to.

[Neuroff]

Better than Sasuke? Sasuke's technique and power have been upgraded at least tenfold since his battle with Lee.
Sasuke's taijutsu still wasn't on par with Lee during the Chuunin Exam. He had Lee's weightless speed, but he didn't have anything on Lee with gates.

[Jehuty]

Sasuke's taijutsu still wasn't on par with Lee during the Chuunin Exam. He had Lee's weightless speed, but he didn't have anything on Lee with gates.
That's not all I meant. Now he has the extra boost from having his curse seal upgraded, the third tomoe, and three years of training by a genius ninja who likely pumped him fulla drugs.

[Neuroff]

Sasuke has been training very hard, but he hasn't been focusing on taijutsu. He's learned how to use a sword, learned many ninjutsu, learned summoning, learned genjutsu, etc. Lee trains as hard as anyone, and he focuses purely on speed and strength. I think the third tomoe allows Sasuke to even the playing field, but I don't think he would have speed and strength on par with Lee.

[Karma]

i don't even want to start it with you guys.. Because you guys forgot that Sasuke has to use is bloodline limit to keep up with Naruto speed at the valley at the end..




but normally.. Lee is the best... because he train that way..

then Neji..

then sasuke..

Naruto..


But with everyone using there bloodline limit and going all out..

Naruto is the best..

lee second

Sasuke

Neji..

[lordHokage]

I really don't think Sasuke or Neji Taijutsu is better than Naruto. Bloodline limit or no Blood line limit, Naruto has the advantage. :blink

[Jehuty]

Sasuke has been training very hard, but he hasn't been focusing on taijutsu. He's learned how to use a sword, learned many ninjutsu, learned summoning, learned genjutsu, etc. Lee trains as hard as anyone, and he focuses purely on speed and strength. I think the third tomoe allows Sasuke to even the playing field, but I don't think he would have speed and strength on par with Lee.
Focused or not, he's got the Sharingan, making him capable of keeping up with Naruto in fox form. Second, he's been trained by Orochimaru, while Lee, I imagine, has just been doing pushups and whatnot day after day.

And you can't be excellent at kenjutsu without having a strong physical form and great fighting instincts in general. "Karate" means "empty hand," as to be used for when a swordsman gets disarmed. I don't imagine Sasuke trained with a sword and hoped to God he'd never drop it else he'd be proper screwed.

[Black/Light]

OK, heres how I see it. Without Ninjutsu or eyejutse Or weapons OR Chakra power ups like the gates OR KB OOR CS the whole thing boils down to 2 people. . . .Lee and Neji.

Naruto and Sas are alike in that they use way more ninjutsu in their fighting styles. With out Nin (or Eye) than neither one would stand a chance with Lee or Neji.

So between Nija and Lee I say Lee wins out. Neji has gentil fist. . . but in order to do that he has to use his blood line eye jutsu. With out that he would, as been said before, be completely guessing. Lee comes out on top in this.

"But he said Neji was better than him. . " Lee was talking about all together, not in a non-bloodline useing hand to hand fight.

[Alterno]

Focused or not, he's got the Sharingan, making him capable of keeping up with Naruto in fox form. Second, he's been trained by Orochimaru, while Lee, I imagine, has just been doing pushups and whatnot day after day.

Actually he couldn't keep with one tail naruto, he couldn't read his fox chakra... The sharingan. Neither with C2.. Sasuke survived because naruto didn't run out of control and second because he changed his attack in the last moment...



And you can't be excellent at kenjutsu without having a strong physical form and great fighting instincts in general. "Karate" means "empty hand," as to be used for when a swordsman gets disarmed. I don't imagine Sasuke trained with a sword and hoped to God he'd never drop it else he'd be proper screwed.

Why not?... I mean we don't know how strong you have to be to use a forbidden jutsus.. there are a few forbidden jutsu which causes an impact on the body fo the user, but others don't like summoning the dead, etc...

[Jehuty]

Actually he couldn't keep with one tail naruto, he couldn't read his fox chakra... The sharingan. Neither with C2.. Sasuke survived because naruto didn't run out of control and second because he changed his attack in the last moment...He could read all of zero-tails movements. His eyes were fast enough to make his body fast enough. That's quite the feat.



Why not?... I mean we don't know how strong you have to be to use a forbidden jutsus.. there are a few forbidden jutsu which causes an impact on the body fo the user, but others don't like summoning the dead, etc...
Forbidden jutsu? This is swordsmanship. I think you may be confusing it with kinjutsu.

[Oblivion]

I think everybody is heading towards who is the strongest instead who has the better tae jutsu or who is the best in tae jutsu. Neji has the best tae jutsu witjh or without chakra, Lee runs second, Sasuke runs third and Naruto in last...

not kagebunshin, not byakuugan, not chakra gates, not sharingan, etc..

1. It have been said that Hyuuga's tae jutsu is the best of Konoha...
2. Lee said that his goal is to beat Neji, in other words to defeat him...
3. Lee wiped the floor wtih Sasuke just with tae jutsu...
4. Naruto defeated Neji, but he used ninjutsu (Kagebunshin no jutsu), Kunais, taejutsu and Kyuubi's chakra...

finally someone understand that in a taijutsu only battle no ninjutsu and eye technique should count. and i think then the outcome would be like this too.

[Jehuty]

finally someone understand that in a taijutsu only battle no ninjutsu and eye technique should count. and i think then the outcome would be like this too.
That's like saying someone who has strong arms shouldn't be allowed to use them. They were born with it. Not everyone is. Hell, Lee wasn't even that good at taijutsu until Guy told him not to give up. He wouldn't have focused on taijutsu if he could do ninjutsu or genjutsu.

[Neuroff]

Focused or not, he's got the Sharingan, making him capable of keeping up with Naruto in fox form. Second, he's been trained by Orochimaru, while Lee, I imagine, has just been doing pushups and whatnot day after day.

And you can't be excellent at kenjutsu without having a strong physical form and great fighting instincts in general. "Karate" means "empty hand," as to be used for when a swordsman gets disarmed. I don't imagine Sasuke trained with a sword and hoped to God he'd never drop it else he'd be proper screwed.
Training with Orochimaru means ninjutsu and more ninjutsu. What are Sasuke's biggest improvements? His new uses of Chidori, top-level genjutsu, and of course "that" jutsu. Sasuke didn't even have a SINGLE genjutsu in his arsenal before going to train with Orochimaru. I'm not saying Sasuke couldn't possibly beat Lee in a taijutsu fight, but he's not going to be as fast or as strong as Lee is.

[Jehuty]

Training with Orochimaru means ninjutsu and more ninjutsu. What are Sasuke's biggest improvements? His new uses of Chidori, top-level genjutsu, and of course "that" jutsu. Sasuke didn't even have a SINGLE genjutsu in his arsenal before going to train with Orochimaru. I'm not saying Sasuke couldn't possibly beat Lee in a taijutsu fight, but he's not going to be as fast or as strong as Lee is.
Probably not in gates mode. But that only lasts a short while and leaves him severely crippled afterwards. Sasuke's got the Sharingan, allowing him infinite clarity, which in turn allows him to read moves to the point where he could read zero-tailed Naruto. The Sharingan's only gotten better and his reactions have probably gotten much, much faster. Lee has, again, probably just been doing pushups and the like over and over for three years, so what with the lack of training by one of the Legendary Three, his growth has probably been less drastic. Sasuke now could probably outlast Lee's gates and then bring the decisive blow.

Also, does shunshin count as ninjutsu or taijutsu? It's really just very fast movement.

[Neuroff]

Probably not in gates mode. But that only lasts a short while and leaves him severely crippled afterwards. Sasuke's got the Sharingan, allowing him infinite clarity, which in turn allows him to read moves to the point where he could read zero-tailed Naruto. The Sharingan's only gotten better and his reactions have probably gotten much, much faster. Lee has, again, probably just been doing pushups and the like over and over for three years, so what with the lack of training by one of the Legendary Three, his growth has probably been less drastic. Sasuke now could probably outlast Lee's gates and then bring the decisive blow.

Also, does shunshin count as ninjutsu or taijutsu? It's really just very fast movement.
I don't get why you keep bringing up Orochimaru's training. If anything, Gai's training would be the best for strength and speed. And I don't doubt that Sasuke could outlast the gates, but I do doubt that Sasuke would be using taijutsu to do it.

[Jehuty]

Because Orochimaru clearly didn't train Sasuke in just ninjutsu and genjutsu, he made him a formidable opponent in all fields. Guy just isn't on that level of teaching. Besides, the only thing we've known him to teach is the lotus, and it seems that Lee just trains himself, building more muscle. Lee already seems to know all the motions of Gouken.

[Neuroff]

Because Orochimaru clearly didn't train Sasuke in just ninjutsu and genjutsu, he made him a formidable opponent in all fields. Guy just isn't on that level of teaching. Besides, the only thing we've known him to teach is the lotus, and it seems that Lee just trains himself, building more muscle. Lee already seems to know all the motions of Gouken.
All around training or pure taijutsu training, which should help the most with taijutsu? We haven't seen any of Orochimaru's training either, you can't make assumptions based on a single flashback.

[Jehuty]

All around training or pure taijutsu training, which should help the most with taijutsu? We haven't seen any of Orochimaru's training either, you can't make assumptions based on a single flashback.
Er... considering Orochimaru's one of the Sannin and Lee is... himself, I'd wager Sasuke to get the better training.

[Neuroff]

Er... considering Orochimaru's one of the Sannin and Lee is... himself, I'd wager Sasuke to get the better training.
So Sasuke is doing jutsu training, practicing his sword technique, etc. while doing some strength and speed training on the side. Lee is doing training that focuses purely on strength and speed, while being taught by someone who is known specifically for those traits. But Sasuke must have improved more in those areas simply because he's being taught by a Sannin.

[Oblivion]

Sasuke learned more nin stuff so to create stuff like Chirdori nagashi and snake techniques more then taijutsu from Orochimaru (though his taijutsu is uber in ninja taisen 3 ^^)

it not like he came to oro and and oro said in order to defeat Itachi you need to learn some more taijutsu......

not that he didn't train strength and speed but not as focused as Lee.

i mean if both train the same amount of time, lee would train more tiajutsu, simply coz its the only thing he can^^

[Dice]

In this topic I go with Oblivion and the KFC-Kenpachi (just loving the idea of a waiter with Kenpachis attitude XD). Just because Oro is a sannin doesn't give Sasuke a complimentary ticket for the best taijutsu. Because he had to advance in the other fields too. Whereas Lee only has taijutsu (maybe just maybe he learned some ninjutsu (like Gai is able to use them too) but somehow I doubt it). Furthermore Lee is a genuis of hard work. So my bet -who has improved more taijutsu-wise (and only taijutsu = without anything else)- will be on Lee. I'd say that Lee can now easily bear the lower gates and use the higher too. At least 6 I think.

[The Noobslayer]

Sasuke all the way-

Sharingan to predict and track the very fastest opponents AND their weapons.

Chidori NAGASHI in which he has a comple defesive shield which paralyzes enemies on contact, thus on one on one combat the opponent is screwed.

Godlike BASE speed that has yet to be matched.

Sword.

Curse seal.

Oh, and natural genius.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Anyone who think that Naruto doesn't have the best Taijutsu is fooling themselves. It's impossible to negate the fact the Naruto has the kyuubi because that's the way the manga started out. Do any of you think that Naruto could possibly lose to Neji or Rock Lee when he is at a 4 tailed state? I didn't think so. I even saw someone put Naruto under Neji, which I find amusing since Naruto already beat Neji using Taijutsu. The only one that has a chance to beat Naruto would be Sasuke. Since the question is who has the better taijutsu, would that take Sasuke's Doujutsu out of the equation? If so, we all know that Naruto would win. I doubt that Sasuke's curse seal improved as much as Naruto's tail transformation. Now, if Sasuke is using his Sharingan, I think he would win because his Sharingan has improved since part one (apparently he can cast a pretty good genjutsu now, which I don't remember him doing in part one). So far, we haven't seen anything that was actually strong enough to even hurt Naruto is his 4-tailed state. Ask yourself this question, who would've done better against Deidara: 4-tailed Naruto or Cursed Sealed Sasuke? Pro and Con:

Naruto is covered with chakra strong enough to burn his own skin off. I don't think that the microscopic explosives would stand a chance against that.

Sasuke has a limit to how far he can stretch his form manipulation, but we haven't seen the limitations of Naruto's chakra stretching abilities.

Naruto has seemingly unlimited chakra and ungodly stamina, Sasuke does not.

It's like Rock Lee said, no matter how good your eyes are, your body can only do so much. We haven't exactly seen the full extent of Naruto's 4-tailed state. With that being said, if there was an all out battle between Neji, Rock Lee, Sasuke, and Naruto I think that Naruto would be victorious. Not only that, I don't think that there are too many people that would be able to handle Naruto in a 4-tailed state, including Itachi since Jariaya couldn't handle him.

[Decorus]

Using opening the gates after having your tenketsu's sealed would kill Lee or Gai. Recall what happened to The Sound Ninja when Shino sealed the air holes with his bugs now imagine that happening inside someone's body....

Rock Lee has the limitation that he moves faster then he can see and as such is wide open to counter attacks if the person can see him move.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Using opening the gates after having your tenketsu's sealed would kill Lee or Gai. Recall what happened to The Sound Ninja when Shino sealed the air holes with his bugs now imagine that happening inside someone's body....

Rock Lee has the limitation that he moves faster then he can see and as such is wide open to counter attacks if the person can see him move.

Even so, if Lee were to open all those gates I still don't think his power would equal more than Naruto's. That's just an educated guess though, I could be worng but I doubt it. Even if his power was to rival that of a 4-tail Naruto, he wouldn't be able to maintain it for very long due to the stress on his body. It may seem as though Rock Lee could win because Kishi has always put emphasis on how good Rock Lee's Taijutsu is, but all signs indicate that Naruto has the better Taijutsu of not only the Kohona 9, but also their sensei. Let's be real, it took the 4th Hokage to seal the kyuubi. I would honestly put a 4-tail Naruto up against anyone from Konoha(as far as Taijutsu is concerned).

[patedecarne]

4th naruto would totally pwned anyone below hokage level, or even a hokage level, and his style won't be taijutsu, but freejutsu, even lee or gai with 8 gates cannot fight against this level of power, but i"m sure that the 8 gates could totally defeat anyone but 4th naruto, even pain, and even is sasuke could copy with the eyes the movements os lee and gay, his body could keep up all this chakra? I really doubt it...

[Decorus]

Lee couldn't beat Pein even by opening all 8 gates. Lee has a time limit and then he dies when he opens all 8 gates all Pein has to do is outlast him and he wins. Opening all 8 Gates is not an I win strategy, its a I hope I can take him with me strategy.

[Oblivion]

why should pain be able to outlast him???

8 gate=INSTANT SPEEDOOOO
8 gate=ONE HIT=BÄÄÄÄM=blow anyone's body to bits

so no time to react+one hit and your body i kinda broken=autowin

though 8 gates=death HIGHLY possible

and sasuke cant copy/predict what he cant see.

[Jehuty]

why should pain be able to outlast him???

8 gate=INSTANT SPEEDOOOO
8 gate=ONE HIT=BÄÄÄÄM=blow anyone's body to bits

so no time to react+one hit and your body i kinda broken=autowin

though 8 gates=death HIGHLY possible

and sasuke cant copy/predict what he cant see.
Eight gates definitely kills you.

Pain's bodies were impaled by giant blade things. He'd be able to take a barrage from the eight gates.

[sabuk-demon]

well if u put all jutsu,and sharingan,kyuubi fox,byakugan to the side
it would be lee.

sasuke got a trait sharingan he was born with.
so that give him a upper hand,

neji got bykugan that he was born with.

naruto got the fox as a gift.

and lee has hands and feet that every ninja was born with
he had to work hard to get where he is.he dont even use jutsu,

so rock-lee is a winner in tai-jutsu from hard work and work harder than
any of the other three.they just have a boost.hands feet speed is all lee need.with gates if
it come down to it.

[Jehuty]

well if u put all jutsu,and sharingan,kyuubi fox,byakugan to the side
it would be lee.

sasuke got a trait sharingan he was born with.
so that give him a upper hand,

neji got bykugan that he was born with.

naruto got the fox as a gift.

and lee has hands and feet that every ninja was born with
he had to work hard to get where he is.he dont even use jutsu,

so rock-lee is a winner in tai-jutsu from hard work and work harder than
any of the other three.they just have a boost.hands feet speed is all lee need.with gates if
it come down to it.
Okay. So if I have stronger arms than others naturally, I'm not allowed to use them to gain advantage in a fight?

[Dice]

Everybody who mentiones the 4-tailed Naruto forgets a single thing: He only was in this state 2 times and I don't think we could compare this with something the other can use whenever they want. I mean just because he entered this state once in a battle we saw doesn't mean he's gonne use it anymore (at least not in this way). I imagine people saying that Naruto has the best taijutsu off all shinobi as long as he goes nine-tailed-kyuubi (although that might not be possible).
Btw. :Isn't the 4-tailed-state the first state in which the kyuubi has more control than Naruto, is it? So theoretical it would rather be the 4-tailed kyuubi's taijutsu.

If someone with hokage-lvl is able to defeat him there's a possibility that Gai is able when he opens all 8 gates, who knows. But my guess is that we will see them in the future and then we'll know of what he will be capable.
Ohh and the 4-tailed-state even amplifies Naruto's straight-forward-street-fighter-style XD but in this case it seems that he has no other choice.

[Decorus]

Naruto has no control over going tailed it happens and once he starts he will inevitably go 4 tailed. In the tailed state Kyuubi is generally not actively disobeying Naruto, but could at any point do so as Naruto really has only as much control over the chakra cloak as Kyuubi gives him. Naruto will go tailed if a fight continues long enough to push Naruto to his limits or someone does something that will piss off Naruto.

Yamato is with Naruto to prevent Naruto from going tailed so if Naruto could naturally decide not to Yamato would be unneeded.

[segua]

I think the only one capable of going toe-to-toe with Sasuke would pretty much be Neji. And Neji would whoop Sasuke's ass imo. The only person that could take on and beat Neji would be Chuck Norris.

[Dice]

But the fight Naruto went 4-tailes was a fight with really much emotion. And so was the fight at the valley of the end and the Gaarafight. I think you can't always count on the emotional-power-upgrades. It's kind of unreliable.
The first fight he didn't show any emotions was against Kakuzu. So I guess he might be more in control of himselft and of his real powers.

[Jehuty]

But the fight Naruto went 4-tailes was a fight with really much emotion. And so was the fight at the valley of the end and the Gaarafight. I think you can't always count on the emotional-power-upgrades. It's kind of unreliable.
The first fight he didn't show any emotions was against Kakuzu. So I guess he might be more in control of himselft and of his real powers.
Neji and Gaara didn't really provide emotional upgrades. His eyes remained the same color and everything. That was just him drawing on the chakra.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

So let me get this straight, you guys aren't talkin about Naruto fighting at full capacity???
What sense does that make? I see a lot of hypotheticals, like "Naruto can't go 4-tails when he want" or "The kyuubi takes over, so it wouldn't be Naruto". Really, why would they be fighting anyway. Bottomline, Naruto has the best Taijutsu. And how could Neji possibly be the only one that has a chance to beat Sasuke when Naruto already beat him, in Taijutsu.

Also, since when has Naruto not been able to called upon the kyuubi's chakra whenever he wanted to? If anything, it's probably harder for Naruto to fight without it. I know that Naruto has to be in a certain emotional state to bring out the kyuubi's chakra, but how hard is that? How is it possible to grow tails by accident but not being able to grow them on purpose? Anybody that says that Naruto can't get 4-tails whenever he wants is reaching. What's stopping him? The kyuubi is obviously willing to give up his chakra, so what would stop Naruto from using it other then Naruto himself? I think that it is blatantly obvious who would win. Sasuke, Neji, and Rock Lee at the best can't beat Naruto at his best. Therefore, Naruto would win. Sorry for the short story and since this is hypothetical it's obviously not a fact, but with all that we know I think it's a damn good guess. If anyone can tell me why Naruto wouldn't win without taking any power away from him, I would love to hear it (not being sarcastic).

[Decorus]

Naruto doesn't have to be in any emotional state to draw on Kyuubi's chakra he can just go "Hey Fox Demon gimme your chakra." What happens after that is well up in the air at this point. In the Valley of the End you have the first couple of instances where Kyuubi just takes over Naruto's body for periods of time without Naruto having anything to do with it.

Rage is the quickest path to get Naruto 4 tailed, but its not like Naruto can just decide to get mad you need to give him an emotional trigger. Whats more likely is a decent fight will push Naruto to his actual limits and when he attempts to exceed them the tails will start to appear.


Its pretty simple pure Taijutsu:
1. Neji
2. Rock Lee
3. Naruto
4. Sasuke

Taijutsu with Natural Abilities
1. Naruto = Kyuubi
2. Neji = Byakugan
3. Sasuke = Sharingan
4. Rock Lee = Physical Conditioning + Drunken fist

Full Taijutsu Style
1. Naruto = Kyuubi + Kage Bunshin + FRS = :pwned
2. Sasuke = CS + Sharingan + Jutsu Arsenal
3. Neji = Gentle Fist + Byakugan
4. Rock Lee = Gates + Drunken Fist

If you strip away everything Sasuke has his Taijutsu will suck he is heavily dependent on Sharingan, Cursed Seal and Ninjutsu to function effectively.

Naruto isn't much better off, but he has a significant advantage over Sasuke in that he actually can fight without having to rely heavily on power crutches.

Rock Lee at his finest, but he can't beat Neji's Gentle fist style.

When you add in Natural abilities Naruto jumps over everyone else. Kyuubi is the ultimate I win button.

Neji gains his Byakugan and has a significant advantage over Sasuke as all the ability to dodge is meaningless when your opponent just has to come close to hitting you to inflict damage as well as actual blocking of his attacks are impossible. Then of course he can inflict serious damage on you just by blocking your attacks. I'd love to see Sasuke try and dodge Neji's Eight way Wind Palm (Yes Neji has a wind attack)

It goes on and on.

[Leen]

Lee > Neji > Sasuke >>>>>>>>> Naruto

I know that a lot of you will root for Neji as the best taijutsu but let me explain this.

Neji does have a lot of nice taijutsu moves with his jyuuken but he doesn't go anywhere near the lotus. I think he himself was shocked during the chuunin exam to see how strong Lee could be in terms of taijutsu.

Lee on the other hand specializes in taijutsu only (without bloodline limit too). Add that to his never-ending practices and gates-opening feast, I say that Lee is better than Neji.

Understand that when one person specializes, he ultimately narrows down his own focus to just one thing. Lee is precisely doing that by concentrating on taijutsu alone.

Neji though on the other hand has to focus on more things than just taijutsu. In fact, I might think that Neji is a sort-of taijutsu-cum-ninjutsu person. He is defniitely not purely taijutsu.

Therefore, Lee > Neji.

[Jehuty]

Lee > Neji > Sasuke >>>>>>>>> Naruto

I know that a lot of you will root for Neji as the best taijutsu but let me explain this.

Neji does have a lot of nice taijutsu moves with his jyuuken but he doesn't go anywhere near the lotus. I think he himself was shocked during the chuunin exam to see how strong Lee could be in terms of taijutsu.

Lee on the other hand specializes in taijutsu only (without bloodline limit too). Add that to his never-ending practices and gates-opening feast, I say that Lee is better than Neji.

Understand that when one person specializes, he ultimately narrows down his own focus to just one thing. Lee is precisely doing that by concentrating on taijutsu alone.

Neji though on the other hand has to focus on more things than just taijutsu. In fact, I might think that Neji is a sort-of taijutsu-cum-ninjutsu person. He is defniitely not purely taijutsu.

Therefore, Lee > Neji.
He's a close-combat taijutsu specialist who has ultimate clarity, allowing him to see and react to extremely high moving objects with a near-impenetrable defensive style that can only be beaten by someone with abnormal chakra. With Lee's lack of endurance in gates mode, Neji outclasses him in Part II.

[Neuroff]

Neji though on the other hand has to focus on more things than just taijutsu. In fact, I might think that Neji is a sort-of taijutsu-cum-ninjutsu person. He is defniitely not purely taijutsu.

Therefore, Lee > Neji.
Actually, Neji is pure taijutsu. Just look at his fight against Kidoumaru, he uses the exact same moves. All taijutsu. He just has a different style, which has already been said to be the best for taijutsu.

[segua]

Well if you guys also include endurance, I think it we would pretty much conclude that the one left standing would be:

Mr. Rogers

Seriously though, the one with the most endurance would be Naruto. So Naruto would be the last one standing at the end most likely.

I think that since Neji and Rock Lee has one of the top anti-sharingan fighter as their instructor, I'm sure they probably learned a few things about handling a sharingan user in a one-to-one situation. Rock Lee might be a bit clumsy at it but I'm sure he could manage to pull out a win from Sasuke using anti-sharingan tactics.

Neji on the other hand will totally dominate Sasuke. If Sasuke's speed is less of that of a Lee utilizing a high speed combo that almost defeated Gaara, Sasuke can't even hope to touch Neji. With the ability of the byakugan, Neji might have perfected Gai's anti-sharingan tactics.

[Dice]

But in the fight against Gaara and Neji he was full of I'm gonna beat this guy because of his attitude and because of what he did to Hinata-/because he hurt Sakura and Sasuke who just attmited that we are friends-emotion. In the fight he wanted to take revenge for Sasuke. In the valley of the end he wanted to take back Sasuke. While going 4-tailes he was facing the one who took back Sasuke, at least he thinks so...

And he was not able to call the kyuubi chakra during the Sannin fight when he wanted to summon Gamabunta.

I you would say he could potentially have the best taijutsu I can agree (that means if he has time to call the kyuubi-chakra etc. but it also means his future potential). But to think that Naruto is able to call upon the fox chakra like he want whenever he want is a little bit hyperbolical. Most of the fights wouldn't even last that long if the opponent would be willing to kill as soon as possible (See the fight against Haku or Neji for instance).

And Naruto has really the ugliest taijutsu. Let's face it: we never saw him really train some taijutsu moves. Just compare him and Sasuke during the bell training. Neji and Lee also were better at this time. Since that time the only real taijutsu upgrade he has is some speed and some strenght. But most of the time he showed as this strenght was when he was getting emotional (and often even calling for the fox-chakra). And like I said an emotional power-upgrade isn't anything you can count on (btw. a shinobi shouldn't show any emotion XP)

To clarify something: I am no Naruto-hater. To tell the truth Lee, Neji and Naruto I like them all about the same, only Sasuke is lacking behind XD.

[Decorus]

Rock Lee has stated he could not beat Neji, while watching Naruto fight him. Fighting Neji is not easy as you can't effectively attack or defend against his attacks without suffering from the effects of his Gentle fist style. Neji can project chakra from any point in his body which means he blocks your punch he can insert his chakra into your Inner Chakra coils causing internal injuries to his opponent.

Naruto doesn't need to call upon Kyuubi's chakra to get it. If you had read the Valley at the End fight against Sasuke you would have noticed Naruto had nothing to do with any instance of him using Kyuubi chakra in it. Kyuubi decided hmm I don't want to die so I'm going to try and stop Sasuke from impaling Naruto in the heart, then later hmm Sasuke is gonna drown me unless I do something so bing bang boom One tailed Kyuubi. Self preservation is a guaranteed Kyuubi intervention.

Naruto does not have a polished Taijutsu style more because of a lack of formal training and besides he has the single best Taijutsu technique ever created 1000 years of Pain.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

But in the fight against Gaara and Neji he was full of I'm gonna beat this guy because of his attitude and because of what he did to Hinata-/because he hurt Sakura and Sasuke who just attmited that we are friends-emotion. In the fight he wanted to take revenge for Sasuke. In the valley of the end he wanted to take back Sasuke. While going 4-tailes he was facing the one who took back Sasuke, at least he thinks so...

And he was not able to call the kyuubi chakra during the Sannin fight when he wanted to summon Gamabunta.

I you would say he could potentially have the best taijutsu I can agree (that means if he has time to call the kyuubi-chakra etc. but it also means his future potential). But to think that Naruto is able to call upon the fox chakra like he want whenever he want is a little bit hyperbolical. Most of the fights wouldn't even last that long if the opponent would be willing to kill as soon as possible (See the fight against Haku or Neji for instance).

And Naruto has really the ugliest taijutsu. Let's face it: we never saw him really train some taijutsu moves. Just compare him and Sasuke during the bell training. Neji and Lee also were better at this time. Since that time the only real taijutsu upgrade he has is some speed and some strenght. But most of the time he showed as this strenght was when he was getting emotional (and often even calling for the fox-chakra). And like I said an emotional power-upgrade isn't anything you can count on (btw. a shinobi shouldn't show any emotion XP)

To clarify something: I am no Naruto-hater. To tell the truth Lee, Neji and Naruto I like them all about the same, only Sasuke is lacking behind XD.

Wow....you do realize that was 2 1/2 years ago, right. It has already been said that Naruto's chakra is mixing with the kyuubi's chakra. Naruto's body was suppressing the kyuubi's chakra when he was younger because of the strain on his body. Naruto is well aware of what he is doing until the fourth tail comes out, so how couldn't he know how to make the tails appear? I have a question for you, why would Yamato tell Naruto not to use that power if Naruto couldn't use it when he wanted to. You don't remember?

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume34.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=29712

The fox demon willingly supplies it and Naruto either uses it or suppresses it. He may not be in control when the fourth tail comes out but, make no mistake, he can do it when he wants to. I don't understand what the argument is about. Unless you think that the kyuubi doesn't willingly give his chakra away, how can you possibly think that Naruto doesn't have the choice of whether to accept or reject that power?

[Decorus]

Why would Yamato be following Naruto around all the time if Naruto could choose not to use it?

[Alexis]

Because Naruto is impulsive and a bit stupid? One word about Sasuke and he looses his cool.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Because Naruto is impulsive and a bit stupid? One word about Sasuke and he looses his cool.

Woah....bring it down a little. While I will agree that Naruto is impulsive and perhaps a little dense, Naruto is far from stupid.

[Decorus]

Thats just Alexis its not his fault......

If Naruto could control Kyuubi he would not need Yamato following him around babysitting him.

[Oblivion]

Because Naruto is impulsive and a bit stupid? One word about Sasuke and he looses his cool.

SOOO TRUE!.

and yes he is stupid, just look how he has repeat his task millions of time to not forget it. and how frustrated kakashi is from training him.....

he is not dumb like goku was once but just plain dense.

[Decorus]

Because Sasuke is impulsive and incredibly stupid? One word about Itachi and he goes completely Psycho...

Try teaching quadratic equations to someone who only knows how to add subtract multiply and divide. I have a feeling you would think the person is a complete moron.

Hell at work I have to explain basic printer protocols over and over again to people with College degrees and its not thier own stupidity that keeps them from getting it.

"Something's wrong with my Internet"
Turns on the computer, opens up Mozilla to Google.
"Everything seems fine to me?"
"How did you do that?"
"I turned the computer on...."

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

SOOO TRUE!.

and yes he is stupid, just look how he has repeat his task millions of time to not forget it. and how frustrated kakashi is from training him.....

he is not dumb like goku was once but just plain dense.

I think that is one of the biggest misconceptions in Naruto. Zabusa, Kiba, Neji, Kabuto, and Kakuzu can all be considered as geniuses and Naruto beat them. Not only did he beat them, he outsmarted them. When Sasuke was frozen with fear of Orochimaru, it was Naruto that explained why they shouldn't give their scroll to him. If Naruto is stupid, what does that make them? Dense and stupid are not the same thing. Besides that, Kakashi may have been irritated from training Naruto but lets not forget that Naruto took the 4th's jutsu further than the 4th and Kakashi could ever hope for. A stupid person can not outsmart a genius, and Naruto has been doing it since the very beginning. Let's not forget that Naruto is the only one out of the four that didn't lose during the chuunin exam arc. Lee lost to Gaara, Neji lost to Naruto, and not only did Sasuke lose to Gaara but Naruto beat Gaara. What's the use of being a genius if you can't even beat a "stupid" person.

[Oblivion]

I think that is one of the biggest misconceptions in Naruto. Zabusa, Kiba, Neji, Kabuto, and Kakuzu can all be considered as geniuses and Naruto beat them. Not only did he beat them, he outsmarted them. When Sasuke was frozen with fear of Orochimaru, it was Naruto that explained why they shouldn't give their scroll to him. If Naruto is stupid, what does that make them? Dense and stupid are not the same thing. Besides that, Kakashi may have been irritated from training Naruto but lets not forget that Naruto took the 4th's jutsu further than the 4th and Kakashi could ever hope for. A stupid person can not outsmart a genius, and Naruto has been doing it since the very beginning. Let's not forget that Naruto is the only one out of the four that didn't lose during the chuunin exam arc. Lee lost to Gaara, Neji lost to Naruto, and not only did Sasuke lose to Gaara but Naruto beat Gaara. What's the use of being a genius if you can't even beat a "stupid" person.

if anyone then kakashi was the one who outsmarted the 4th. if it wasnt for him, yamato and azuma naruto wont ever be able to use wind chakra and even more: never start a kage bunshin fast forward training. this is thx to kakahsi's smartness. and if it wasnt for kakashi naruto might have never even tried to evolve the rasengan.

and what has the fight lee vs. gaara to do with naruto's intellect? if some other ppl lose or win doesnt make naruto wittier.

and he beat some tough enemies, them, but its mostly coz he distracts the lot of them with kage bunshins.
its not dumb or dense but it isnt making him ultra intelligent, the bunshin is already a tough ninjutsu to deal with.

and sasuke frozen was frozen in fear, that can happen to anyone, doesnt mean that naruto was smarter then sasuke at that point.
fear has nothing to do with intellect....

of course naruto is totally stupid but he sure isnt very smart

[Jehuty]

I think that is one of the biggest misconceptions in Naruto. Zabusa, Kiba, Neji, Kabuto, and Kakuzu can all be considered as geniuses and Naruto beat them. Not only did he beat them, he outsmarted them. When Sasuke was frozen with fear of Orochimaru, it was Naruto that explained why they shouldn't give their scroll to him. If Naruto is stupid, what does that make them? Dense and stupid are not the same thing. Besides that, Kakashi may have been irritated from training Naruto but lets not forget that Naruto took the 4th's jutsu further than the 4th and Kakashi could ever hope for. A stupid person can not outsmart a genius, and Naruto has been doing it since the very beginning. Let's not forget that Naruto is the only one out of the four that didn't lose during the chuunin exam arc. Lee lost to Gaara, Neji lost to Naruto, and not only did Sasuke lose to Gaara but Naruto beat Gaara. What's the use of being a genius if you can't even beat a "stupid" person.
I'll give you the rest, but Kiba? A genius? Come on, son. That's just insulting.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

if anyone then kakashi was the one who outsmarted the 4th. if it wasnt for him, yamato and azuma naruto wont ever be able to use wind chakra and even more: never start a kage bunshin fast forward training. this is thx to kakahsi's smartness. and if it wasnt for kakashi naruto might have never even tried to evolve the rasengan.

and what has the fight lee vs. gaara to do with naruto's intellect? if some other ppl lose or win doesnt make naruto wittier.

and he beat some tough enemies, them, but its mostly coz he distracts the lot of them with kage bunshins.
its not dumb or dense but it isnt making him ultra intelligent, the bunshin is already a tough ninjutsu to deal with.

and sasuke frozen was frozen in fear, that can happen to anyone, doesnt mean that naruto was smarter then sasuke at that point.
fear has nothing to do with intellect....

of course naruto is totally stupid but he sure isnt very smart

He may not be book smart, but Naruto can be considered a genius when it comes to fighting. Name one person that wasn't a child prodigy that made it to the second part of tournament. Why would you think that Naruto isn't a child prodigy? Am I the only one that saw Naruto beat Kakuzu? What did Chouji say? Even Kakashi was impressed by how Naruto came up with a plan in such short time. Naruto outsmarted someone that fought with the 1st Hokage and lived to tell about it. What more proof do you need? And when Sasuke was afraid of Orochimaru, Naruto was smarter. Sasuke doesn't think like Naruto in life or death situations. Zabusa and Orochimaru are two prime examples. If it would have been up to Sasuke, there wouldn't be a Naruto because they would be dead. And Lee vs Gaara has no direct bearing on Naruto's intellect, that was just to show that everyone (except for Naruto ) lost in the Chunnin Exams.


I'll give you the rest, but Kiba? A genius? Come on, son. That's just insulting.

Yeah, I was wondering whether I should put Kiba's name up there with the rest. Bad judgement call on my part, so I can agree to take Kiba's name off that list.

[Huey Freeman]

So here's my thing about this thread. The question was originally "Who has better taijutsu" right? Why are people still dicussing overall fighting ability? That's a completely different question with a completely different answer. When you get right down to it (and maybe this is why these forums are always so full of opinions and speculations) everybody in this manga has obvious strengths and weaknesses. So depending on how a question is framed any given character may be the best at his specialty.

Who is the strongest? Tsunade, Sakura, or Guy

Who is the fastest? Lee, Guy, or Sasuke

Who is the smartest? Kakashi, Shikamaru, Naruto

You get my drift. However, not many people here are discussing taijutsu. What is being discussed is overall fighting ability and now it has gotten into intelligence. That being the case, I just want to show some respect to my boy Shikamaru. Why not bring him up? I'll tell you why...because people don't respect his overall fighting ability. Well, name one other ninja from Konoha who defeated a member of Akatsuki ALONE. An immortal at that.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

So here's my thing about this thread. The question was originally "Who has better taijutsu" right? Why are people still dicussing overall fighting ability? That's a completely different question with a completely different answer. When you get right down to it (and maybe this is why these forums are always so full of opinions and speculations) everybody in this manga has obvious strengths and weaknesses. So depending on how a question is framed any given character may be the best at his specialty.

Who is the strongest? Tsunade, Sakura, or Guy

Who is the fastest? Lee, Guy, or Sasuke

Who is the smartest? Kakashi, Shikamaru, Naruto

You get my drift. However, not many people here are discussing taijutsu. What is being discussed is overall fighting ability and now it has gotten into intelligence. That being the case, I just want to show some respect to my boy Shikamaru. Why not bring him up? I'll tell you why...because people don't respect his overall fighting ability. Well, name one other ninja from Konoha who defeated a member of Akatsuki ALONE. An immortal at that.

We tend to get off the subject a lot on these threads because there are so many different aspects of the manga and it's hard to stay on one subject, so sorry for that.

However, I will answer your post. Shikamaru is one of, if not the, smartest ninja in Konoha. With that being said, if he would've face Hidan for the first time by himself he would've died. There are a lot of circumstances that helped Shikamaru win. First, he had already fought him and analyzed his fighting ability. Second, he had enough time to formulate a plan, he even took time to research Asuma's chakra knives. Third, he went into battle 100%.

Naruto, on the other hand, didn't know anything about Kakuzu besides what Kakashi explained, which had nothing to do with Kakuzu fighting style. He didn't have time to formulate a plan like Shikamaru did. And last but not least, he didn't go into that fight at 100%. Even Kakuzu commented on how Naruto was already beaten up. Also, let's not forget who was the smarter of the two and who had seemingly more battle experience. Naruto fought a stronger and smarter opponent than Shikamaru did. Do you really think that Shikamaru could have beaten Kakuzu??? Of course not. We all know who was the better of the two and Naruto beat the better one. As much as I like Shikamaru, he is not good enough to beat Kakuzu with or without Kakashi and Yamato's help. So if you're implying that Shikamaru is better than Naruto because of that fight, I disagree.

[Dice]

I remember Shikamaru using some justsu before and he hasn't really that much chakra. And I really think that Naruto looks fitter than Shikamaru. Ohh and Naruto should have really really much more chakra than Shikamaru. And he's even the one who needs to rest the fewest. But I guess the one who used the most chakra (and lost about 2/5 of his ability) was Kakuzu.
And now let's take a look on the Kaku-Naru-fight:
First clever thing Naruto did he used his kagebunshin to analysis Kakuzu. So he knew something before the real fight. Then how he tried to attack him and lend a hit was clever too. Not to speak of the second mixing-the-real-one-between-the-KB-attack. But something like that should one who uses KB as his main-jutsu for several years already know. It should be common sense.
Let's take a look at Kakuzu's part. Against Kakashi and the others he fought really well but against Naruto his was really dumb. Not because he isn't intelligent, no just because he underestimated Naruto. "Ohh mega jutsu...I got only to avoid that....only attack the real one.." He there wouldn't be comedian with that jutsu I guess he would have fought better. I got to admit that I hated it how bad Kishimoto let Kakuzu look. I mean someone with that much battle experience should be much more careful and could even assume that a kage bunshin (or three) can do the jutsu aswell or that it was only a trick that he used three of them. It's not that Naruto didn't well in that fight but he looks so amazing because Kakuzu was really dumb against Naruto.
Ohh and imagine the situation Kakuzu was in. 5 vs. 1. Yeah but only Naruto fought you might say but would you in the same situation trust the enemy that no one will interfere??

And now some things that were stupid actions of Naruto:
First of all: There was no really need to fight alone. By fighting alone he not only bet his own life but the life of the others too. A smart man wouldn't take such an unnecessary risk.
Second: He used a jutsu he used only a few times in a real battle against a shinobi he knew only a few things. He didn't know much about the jutsu. A smart man wouldn't develop a strategy around a jutsu he almost doesn't know anything about. Remember he would have been dead without the others. Just imagine Kakuzu would have been able to use this situation ("Hey sorry Kakashi that Sakura had to die...but my new jutsu is really cool, he?").

But I got to admit that was one of his most intelligent fights ever (along with Zabuza, Kiba and Neji). But most of the time he is really lucky too. Kiba didn't sense that he was Akamaru (don't remember if there was a proper reason). The 1000-years-of-pain hit Gaara's weakpoint (I don't believe he knew about the weakpoint).

One of Naruto's real strenght are his unpredictable moves. But the hasn't to be thought out well. Some are even making the situation worse (entering the mirror-cage for example).

But I agree that Shikamaru wouldn't have been able to take Kakuzu out alone (but with the help of Kakashi and Yamato I guess he would). But if he had knew from the beginning about the hearts he would have been able to find a strategy. I don't think it would change that much for Naruto. But with this information Shikamaru would have been able to end this fight before Kakuzu could react (Chidori through his head instead the heart). It's a rare thing if Naruto is thinking some steps ahead. But now is at least his kagebunshin properly. I'm really looking forward to his next fight.

And I don't get the thing that Naruto was smarter than Sasuke in the forest. Just because he wasn't afraid? Please explain what you mean.

Why has Naruto to be a child prodigy? Well in my opinion there were only three child prodigy (at max): Sasuke, Gaara and Shikamaru (but he only because of his intelligence). Temari, Shino, Kankouro, Zaku prodigys? I don't think so. Fine genin shinobis at best but no prodigys.

Mhh I guess that was quite off-topic.

ps: Please don't lift Naruto's intellect up in the sky just because he fought someone who had much experience and was smart. Because it doesn't count that much if this person is underestimating his opponent and therefore fighting like a noob. He he would have beaten him while Kakuzu was fighting really clever than I would agree.

[Neuroff]

Kakuzu couldn't have done a thing against that strategy. Naruto had FRS coming at him from both sides. If Kakuzu tried to stop the one behind him, the one in front would have hit him.

[DarkManSharingan32]

Naruto is the son of Minato.... if he's not a Prodigy, i dunno who is.
---

And on topic.
Isn't the only unpredictable part of Naruto's fighting style... the Kyuubi Chakra arm thing that came out of nowhere?

I mean... Kakuzu and Sasuke never really showed bewilderment in the face of them (KB). In fact... Kakuzu would have killed Naruto in about 5 seconds.
---

Sasuke has a truly unique and intricate style that involves grabs/throws, involed set-up tactics, as well as tools and weapons.

No ninja in the entire manga has a style as diverse as Sasuke... so I think to place Naruto ahead of him on just brute strength (which didnt get Naruto the win at VotE)... is a bit off.

In a battle of pure Taijutsu i would rank Sasuke and Neji at the top, with Lee followed by Naruto.

With Lee's Gates up to max... he might be able to take Neji out early., but if the fight drags on... Lee goes down hard.

Naruto's fighting style is basically punches and kicks amplified though ninjutsu... nothing truly special on the Taijutsu end. So if hes stripped of Ninjutsu... Naruto gets pwnd. And even with it... he can be neutralized by the expert strikes that Lee, Sasuke, and Neji have already shown off (and beaten Naruto back with already).

Kyuubi keeps Naruto up there, and would decimate Neji.
Sasuke keeps even with CS to and extent...

But If Lee goes gates 5+ it's possible that he could down any of the fighters in a few combos.

[Dice]

@Neuroff
Couldn't he deal with them like he did in the first run? Couldn't he use some big ass elemental jutsu? He could even fight seperated from his two "things".
Just switching to a long range mode and avoiding (!) the undangerous kage bunshin was quite a mistake.

[Neuroff]

If he tried what he did in the first run, he would have been hit. He only didn't get hit because the FRS fizzled out, not because he did something right.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

If he tried what he did in the first run, he would have been hit. He only didn't get hit because the FRS fizzled out, not because he did something right.

Which bring us to the worn out state that he was in. If Naruto would've been at 100%, Kakuzu would've gone down with the first try. I'm sure Naruto would've been able to maintain the FRS long enough to connect if he would've been at 100%.

[DarkManSharingan32]

Which bring us to the worn out state that he was in. If Naruto would've been at 100%, Kakuzu would've gone down with the first try. I'm sure Naruto would've been able to maintain the FRS long enough to connect if he would've been at 100%.

I don't think it was a matter of Naruto being tired... he just had not perfected the jutsu yet.

Put it this way...
Naruto at his bare minimum could still produce a "perfect" Rasengan... because he knows exactly how to get it done.
---

Don't get me wrong... It is a definite factor. But I would definitely contend that Naruto still can't pull that jutsu of on the first try even now.

[Oblivion]

kakuzu used the elements blast, but this time their range was SOOOOO small.

against kakashi, their range was huge, but against naruto they kinda shrunk.

and dont tell kakuzu has never fought against bunshins so that this situation was new for him.

[Dice]

I don't think it was a matter of Naruto being tired... he just had not perfected the jutsu yet.

That fact is really important. I think it's quite egoistic and stupid to build up a strategy around something you don't have perfected/don't know enough about and putting his own life and the life of the others on the line.

And I don't think he would have made if he was at 100%. From the beginning he doesn't look very exhausted and after using it once he still doesn't look that exhausted.

And there is still something I don't get. In chapter 335 an exhausted Kakashi (which should still be faster than Naruto because that was always one of his strenghts) is not that much faster than Hidan. Hidan stated he was the slowest attacking member of Akatsuki. So Kakazu should be faster than him. And should be faster than Naruto. But still he didn't see the KB in his back? But he was fast enough to react to Yamato's attack although he was trying to get Naruto's heart? Don't tell me that Kishimoto didn't let Kakuzu look quite weak against Naruto. Hell he could even use this big ass fire jutsu again. He could split up so one of his hearts could watch his back. There are several possibilities. I simply don't like the fact that a quite smart shinobi with that much battle experience and so much strenght to keep Shikamaru, Kakashi and Choji (although they have many advantages) under control quite easily...he would have been able to kill him.
There would have been a better strategy than that what he has done. Just using his skin hardening jutsu, sit down and wait for the hit. I guess the chance to survive might be at least the same.

And something offtopic of the offtopic:
I don't want to say that anybody could do it but don't you think Kakashi or at least Minato would have been able to do the same jutsu (with their element) if they had about 3 years. Think about it: Naruto could spent every second for about 3 years to train this (assuming he trained one day with 1000 KB).


PS: And to think that Naruto is a child prodigy (+ kyuubi!) seems lame in my opinon. Than his win against Kiba wouldn't be anything special (just an example).

[Oblivion]

That fact is really important. I think it's quite egoistic and stupid to build up a strategy around something you don't have perfected/don't know enough about and putting his own life and the life of the others on the line.



the rasengan alone is enough to finish most of the enemies, and now a even powerful rasengan.

and maybe he already tried it against trees, rock and ground and knows how much of an impact it has.

and how should it endanger others?

[Dice]

Maybe it's powerful enough to take out most of the enemies, but he would have been dead because he didn't know enough about the jutsu. And just a powerful impact isn't everything.

And not using the jutsu itself was dangerous for him and the others (ok for him it's kind of dangerous) but the fact that he wanted to fight alone. There was a five against one situation. To risk his life was unnecessary. Just imagine Kakuzu would have been able to use this situation to his advantage.

[Oblivion]

1. i am pro naruto not being bright, but some of your arguments are bad.

kakahsi who IS intelligent and yamato also agreed naruto going alone. and fighting alone to prove oneself isn't stupid. one day you have to do it. and if an opportunity is given then one should take it. if it wasnt dangerous then naruto wouldn't want to use it as such an opportunity.

2. lets stop, this is going WAY off-topic

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Don't get me wrong... It is a definite factor. But I would definitely contend that Naruto still can't pull that jutsu of on the first try even now.

I can agree that it is arguable. It's understandable if you don't think he could've done it. The fact of the matter is that none of the others could've beaten Kakuzu by themselves no matter what the circumstances were.



PS: And to think that Naruto is a child prodigy (+ kyuubi!) seems lame in my opinon. Than his win against Kiba wouldn't be anything special (just an example).

Really???
Just look at what he's done without the kyuubi. He freed Kakashi from Zabusa, jonin. He mastered the shadow clone technique is less than a day. He mastered the Rasengan in less than a week. He summoned Gamabunta with his own chakra, which is almost impossible for a kid (during the fight with Gaara). He finished a jutsu that the 4th couldn't finish. He beat a S-Class missing nin with one hit. Also, he would've beaten Sasuke on the top of the hospital if it wasn't for Kakashi(and Sasuke didn't touch him in the manga but the anime added that part in). What more proof do you need? He is even a candidate for Hokage. There's a prochecy about Naruto. The way I see it, everyone that made it to the final matches of the chunnin exams can be considered a child prodigy. Why would Naruto be any different?

[Decorus]

Because that would make Sasuke less special.....

The primary problem people have accepting Naruto is a Genius is the fact that thier hero Sasuke would be diminished if he wasn't the Genius.

[bighawke5]

Because Sasuke is impulsive and incredibly stupid? One word about Itachi and he goes completely Psycho...

Try teaching quadratic equations to someone who only knows how to add subtract multiply and divide. I have a feeling you would think the person is a complete moron.

Hell at work I have to explain basic printer protocols over and over again to people with College degrees and its not thier own stupidity that keeps them from getting it.

"Something's wrong with my Internet"
Turns on the computer, opens up Mozilla to Google.
"Everything seems fine to me?"
"How did you do that?"
"I turned the computer on...."

LMAO COULDNT HAVE BEEN SAID ANY BETTER lol i'm still laughing i spat the water i was drinking out lmao hahaha

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Because that would make Sasuke less special.....

The primary problem people have accepting Naruto is a Genius is the fact that thier hero Sasuke would be diminished if he wasn't the Genius.

That's probably true but why does that have to mean that Sasuke isn't a genius too? We all know that Sasuke is a genius, we've been reminded of it numerous times. What we are forgetting is the fact that Naruto wasn't raised like Sasuke. Sasuke was being trained at a young age and he had a genius brother that raised the bar for him. Naruto didn't have that. I bet if Minato trained Naruto there wouldn't be a question about Naruto being a genius. Outside of the classroom, Naruto trained himself and he still managed to be one of the better students. Sasuke had advantages that Naruto didn't have, but yet Sasuke still needed the cursed seal to beat him. Take away the curse seal and the kyuubi and Naruto was still on par with the "genius" of the Uchiha clan. Naruto may make mistakes but so did Kakashi when he first became a jonin. Kakashi was just as impulsive as Naruto back then.

http://groups.msn.com/NarutoMangaReturns/rvolume27.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=33611

[bighawke5]

That fact is really important. I think it's quite egoistic and stupid to build up a strategy around something you don't have perfected/don't know enough about and putting his own life and the life of the others on the line.

And I don't think he would have made if he was at 100%. From the beginning he doesn't look very exhausted and after using it once he still doesn't look that exhausted.

And there is still something I don't get. In chapter 335 an exhausted Kakashi (which should still be faster than Naruto because that was always one of his strenghts) is not that much faster than Hidan. Hidan stated he was the slowest attacking member of Akatsuki. So Kakazu should be faster than him. And should be faster than Naruto. But still he didn't see the KB in his back? But he was fast enough to react to Yamato's attack although he was trying to get Naruto's heart? Don't tell me that Kishimoto didn't let Kakuzu look quite weak against Naruto. Hell he could even use this big ass fire jutsu again. He could split up so one of his hearts could watch his back. There are several possibilities. I simply don't like the fact that a quite smart shinobi with that much battle experience and so much strenght to keep Shikamaru, Kakashi and Choji (although they have many advantages) under control quite easily...he would have been able to kill him.
There would have been a better strategy than that what he has done. Just using his skin hardening jutsu, sit down and wait for the hit. I guess the chance to survive might be at least the same.

And something offtopic of the offtopic:
I don't want to say that anybody could do it but don't you think Kakashi or at least Minato would have been able to do the same jutsu (with their element) if they had about 3 years. Think about it: Naruto could spent every second for about 3 years to train this (assuming he trained one day with 1000 KB).


PS: And to think that Naruto is a child prodigy (+ kyuubi!) seems lame in my opinon. Than his win against Kiba wouldn't be anything special (just an example).

well i understand what u said but you forget like many that there was a factor included...naruto was in kyubi no tail mode...and in that mode he's fast like lee without weights (ungated) so for kakuzu it was tough...remember that sasuke was able to fend off many kb of kyuubi no tail naruto at the battle of valley's end well that was because of the sharingan
what do we know bout kakuzu? he doesnt have sharingan so he can't take care of too many oponents attacking him like naruto does with his bushins at a time plus naruto was fast(proof naruto got close to him enough to even push him with his rasenshuriken---if i remember kakashi couldnt get close to him)

so the answer isnt that kakuzu went easy on naruto or that kishi made him go easy on him
there are lots of factor included: first kakuzu studied him and naruto attacked with bushins and two bushins got caught and the third was able to throw a kunai b4 being destroyed....meaning naruto had found a loop in kakuzu's defense....thats why he used the same tactic knowing kakuzu couldnt have three eyes to see all bushins and take care of all of them and kakuzu couldve destroyed them but he still wouldve had another naruto in his back with the rasenshuriken so naruto had him there tactically and in speed (thanks to kyubi chakra) in fact the only reason naruto was able to pull the rasenshuriken more then two times was because of the kyubi no tail mode as it provides him more chakra and stamina also speed.
[hr]

Because that would make Sasuke less special.....

The primary problem people have accepting Naruto is a Genius is the fact that thier hero Sasuke would be diminished if he wasn't the Genius.

so true +rep

[Dice]

I guess that would make him much faster than Kakashi. And I guess Kakashi should be faster that Lee without weights and without the gates. And wouldn't Kakuzu have been able to use his to hearts too. Or just a really big katon like that he used against Kakashi. He would have hit all 4 with one attack. And Kakuzu is even saying that there is no danger of Naruto (he said something like "what a terrible jutsu" and "just go for the real one" because that one is the only threat because is holding that "terrible jutsu). So he was in fact underestimation Naruto as shinobi and only really afraid of this jutsu.


I can agree that it is arguable. It's understandable if you don't think he could've done it. The fact of the matter is that none of the others could've beaten Kakuzu by themselves no matter what the circumstances were.



Really???
Just look at what he's done without the kyuubi. He freed Kakashi from Zabusa, jonin. He mastered the shadow clone technique is less than a day. He mastered the Rasengan in less than a week. He summoned Gamabunta with his own chakra, which is almost impossible for a kid (during the fight with Gaara). He finished a jutsu that the 4th couldn't finish. He beat a S-Class missing nin with one hit. Also, he would've beaten Sasuke on the top of the hospital if it wasn't for Kakashi(and Sasuke didn't touch him in the manga but the anime added that part in). What more proof do you need? He is even a candidate for Hokage. There's a prochecy about Naruto. The way I see it, everyone that made it to the final matches of the chunnin exams can be considered a child prodigy. Why would Naruto be any different?

I guess you missed my point. If a genius beat Kiba it wouldn't be something special because a genius should be able to beat a non-genius (and Kiba isn't considered a genius). If a non-genius (and I don't consider Naruto a genius... at least not a regular genius) is way more special. And I don't consider everybody of the final matches a genius. Shino? Just a good shinobi, same goes for Temari and Kankouro. The person I would consider a genius the most (of the final matches) is Neji. He was able to learn something he shouldn't know (Kaiten is only something the heirs should know) and most probably all alone or with some observations.
Common guys just the sole fact that Naruto isn't a genius made this viktory that special.


Because that would make Sasuke less special.....

The primary problem people have accepting Naruto is a Genius is the fact that thier hero Sasuke would be diminished if he wasn't the Genius.

Sorry but I couldn't care less about that fact. First Sasuke isn't my favourite nor close to it. Second that the genius Sasuke will be beaten by Naruto would be something really amazing.

Don't get me wrong as I said I'm no Naruto-hater or something like this. And I don't think that he won't be the strongest someday. But I don't think he is a genius. He will grow up and someday he will be considered a real genius (even by me XD). He has all tools to become one.

And wasn't he the worst student at least according to his grades XD (I know grades don't make a strong shinobi).


What we are forgetting is the fact that Naruto wasn't raised like Sasuke.
I'm not forgetting this fact. In fact I believe that this is something that made him strong. It gave him his never-give-up-attitude. The hardship he suffered in his youth (being without parents, being hated etc.) made him not only strong but because of that he was able to understand Gaara's feelings and could become friends with him.


1. i am pro naruto not being bright, but some of your arguments are bad.

kakahsi who IS intelligent and yamato also agreed naruto going alone. and fighting alone to prove oneself isn't stupid. one day you have to do it. and if an opportunity is given then one should take it. if it wasnt dangerous then naruto wouldn't want to use it as such an opportunity.

2. lets stop, this is going WAY off-topic
To the second thing: i guess you are right....I'll pm you sometime later to explain my point though XD


Got again longer than expected^^

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

I guess you missed my point. If a genius beat Kiba it wouldn't be something special because a genius should be able to beat a non-genius (and Kiba isn't considered a genius). If a non-genius (and I don't consider Naruto a genius... at least not a regular genius) is way more special. And I don't consider everybody of the final matches a genius. Shino? Just a good shinobi, same goes for Temari and Kankouro. The person I would consider a genius the most (of the final matches) is Neji. He was able to learn something he shouldn't know (Kaiten is only something the heirs should know) and most probably all alone or with some observations.
Common guys just the sole fact that Naruto isn't a genius made this viktory that special.


And wasn't he the worst student at least according to his grades XD (I know grades don't make a strong shinobi).




First I will answer the last sentence. Wasn't he the worst student? Yes. But guess who was the second worst student? Yup, you guess it, Shikamaru. Shikamaru was lazy and Naruto was a class clown. So, what does that have to do with being a genius.

As far as the first part of your post, everybody knew Naruto as a class clown. Of course it was a big deal for Naruto to beat Kiba and Neji, because he didn't start getting serious until he became a genin. Also, Kakashi and Sakura didn't seem surprised when he beat Kiba. Kiba wasn't underestimating Naruto when he was fighting Neji. Sasuke and Kakashi didn't seem surprised when Naruto beat Neji. Also, Sasuke said that he wanted to fight Naruto the most. Sasuke wanted to fight Naruto to test himself. Why???
Because he saw Naruto improving at a faster rate than he was. How can a "non-genius improve at a faster rate than a genius? Out of all of the people in the chunnin exams that Sasuke wanted to test himself against, why would he want to fight a "non-genius" the most? Because he actually knows what Naruto is capable of. From everything that has happened, nobody can convince me the Naruto isn't a child prodigy. Besides that, people don't become geniuses, geniuses are born.

[Decorus]

Sasuke knew that Naruto was stronger then he was its part of Sasuke's reasons for leaving the village. Even Kakashi was aware of the fact that Naruto was stronger then Sasuke. Even post time skip I haven't seen any conclusive proof that in an even fight Sasuke could win. Honestly the only chance Sasuke has had when fighting Naruto is the fact that Naruto has to significantly hold back or he would kill Sasuke. Even during the Valley of the End its obvious from the way its written that Naruto is not trying as hard as he possibly could for most of the fight.

[Windmillblade]

I always did wonder why he didnt summon. saske would have been finished.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Sasuke knew that Naruto was stronger then he was its part of Sasuke's reasons for leaving the village. Even Kakashi was aware of the fact that Naruto was stronger then Sasuke. Even post time skip I haven't seen any conclusive proof that in an even fight Sasuke could win. Honestly the only chance Sasuke has had when fighting Naruto is the fact that Naruto has to significantly hold back or he would kill Sasuke. Even during the Valley of the End its obvious from the way its written that Naruto is not trying as hard as he possibly could for most of the fight.

Exactly. Add in the fact that he has the kyuubi and you have a child prodigy. Just look at what Sasuke had to do just to stay on par with Naruto. He couldn't even beat Naruto with Sharingan, which is why he went to Orochimaru.

[duo962]

If you essentially consider Lee being the second coming of Gai, and Sasuke being the second of Kakashi, they're about equal. Lee should be able to counter any of the Genjutsu the same as Gai did, and his Drunken Boxing was able to dodge Kimimaro's attacks, so I'd imagine he could handle Sasuke's sword with a few gates open. In a full fight, Sasuke would win - Taijutsu only it'd be Lee. And I really find it ridiculous that they made Sasuke as fast as Lee in that short amount of time with no real explanation, essentially just to keep up with Naruto.

Considering the nature of Lee's base Taijutsu (no real chakra involved, or he'd have Tsunade power hits), and the ability of the gates - forcibly opening chakra paths and making them act ways they shouldn't normally - I'd say he should actually completely counter Neji and be about the same there, too.

Naruto's the only loser in these fights, except when he loses he goes all Kyuubi and wins.

[segua]

By far, Lee is probably the physically strongest and physcially fastest person second only to Gai. The other nins has to channel chakra to various points in their body to achieve the same speed and power as Lee or Gai.

For instance, I'm sure Sasuke has to channel large amounts of chakra into the soles of his feet to even rival Lee's natural speed. I'm sure Sasuke is fast but not nearly as fast as Lee without the extra boost from chakra.

Also, take Tsunade and Sakura as another example. The only reason why these two women could have such monstrous strength could only be due to the fact that they could control their chakra very well. They could focus and release large amounts of chakra in an instant to demolish anything into rubble. I don't think Lee and Gai could pull of something similar but they have been shown to be extremely strong. For instance Lee rooting out a root of a tree. Has anyone ever tried to uproot a stump? I'm sure it'll be similar. Gai was also able to not only leave a crater in a cement wall after punching a Sound nin but also was able to push through leaving a large hole. It takes great amount of explosive strength just to push through something like that. Here I'm talking about punching through a cement wall from a rest position that was extremely a short way away from the way.

In the Valley of the End fight, Naruto was the clear winner. If Naruto wasn't trying to make Sasuke acknowledge Naruto, Sasuke would've died by a Kyuubi laced rasengan. Also, it takes more skill to wound/immobilize than to kill.

Although I still think that Neji would be the winner unless the other three teamed up against him. Than the only two I see duking it out would be Lee and Naruto due to their stamina and endurance. It might even become a draw. I think Sasuke might overwhelm Lee and maybe Neji but I'm sure those two would put a stop to Sasuke. All Neji has to do is disable the tenketsus and Sasuke would be out. I wonder if Lee might be immune to Neji's attacks on the tenketsus.

[Jehuty]

By far, Lee is probably the physically strongest and physcially fastest person second only to Gai. The other nins has to channel chakra to various points in their body to achieve the same speed and power as Lee or Gai.

For instance, I'm sure Sasuke has to channel large amounts of chakra into the soles of his feet to even rival Lee's natural speed. I'm sure Sasuke is fast but not nearly as fast as Lee without the extra boost from chakra.

Also, take Tsunade and Sakura as another example. The only reason why these two women could have such monstrous strength could only be due to the fact that they could control their chakra very well. They could focus and release large amounts of chakra in an instant to demolish anything into rubble. I don't think Lee and Gai could pull of something similar but they have been shown to be extremely strong. For instance Lee rooting out a root of a tree. Has anyone ever tried to uproot a stump? I'm sure it'll be similar. Gai was also able to not only leave a crater in a cement wall after punching a Sound nin but also was able to push through leaving a large hole. It takes great amount of explosive strength just to push through something like that. Here I'm talking about punching through a cement wall from a rest position that was extremely a short way away from the way.

In the Valley of the End fight, Naruto was the clear winner. If Naruto wasn't trying to make Sasuke acknowledge Naruto, Sasuke would've died by a Kyuubi laced rasengan. Also, it takes more skill to wound/immobilize than to kill.

Although I still think that Neji would be the winner unless the other three teamed up against him. Than the only two I see duking it out would be Lee and Naruto due to their stamina and endurance. It might even become a draw. I think Sasuke might overwhelm Lee and maybe Neji but I'm sure those two would put a stop to Sasuke. All Neji has to do is disable the tenketsus and Sasuke would be out. I wonder if Lee might be immune to Neji's attacks on the tenketsus.
Actually, that's a common misconception. Lee can use chakra, channel it to various points in his body, as he's seen walking on water as his team fights Kisame.

[segua]

Damn, you're right Jehuty.

[ANBU4U]

Sasuke knew that Naruto was stronger then he was its part of Sasuke's reasons for leaving the village. Even Kakashi was aware of the fact that Naruto was stronger then Sasuke. Even post time skip I haven't seen any conclusive proof that in an even fight Sasuke could win. Honestly the only chance Sasuke has had when fighting Naruto is the fact that Naruto has to significantly hold back or he would kill Sasuke. Even during the Valley of the End its obvious from the way its written that Naruto is not trying as hard as he possibly could for most of the fight.

I vehemently disagree. But I'll leave it at that.

[lordHokage]

Sasuke knew that Naruto was stronger then he was its part of Sasuke's reasons for leaving the village. Even Kakashi was aware of the fact that Naruto was stronger then Sasuke. Even post time skip I haven't seen any conclusive proof that in an even fight Sasuke could win. Honestly the only chance Sasuke has had when fighting Naruto is the fact that Naruto has to significantly hold back or he would kill Sasuke. Even during the Valley of the End its obvious from the way its written that Naruto is not trying as hard as he possibly could for most of the fight.


Exactly. Add in the fact that he has the kyuubi and you have a child prodigy. Just look at what Sasuke had to do just to stay on par with Naruto. He couldn't even beat Naruto with Sharingan, which is why he went to Orochimaru.

:gigglebunny I 100% agree. Naruto’s mission was to bring Sasuke back home, he wasn’t trying kill him. Genius Sasuke had all the power in the world, Sharingan and CS2 and still couldn’t defeat a loser like Naruto. Naruto’s Taijutsu is far better than Sasuke. :D

[Oblivion]

Sasuke knew that Naruto was stronger then he was its part of Sasuke's reasons for leaving the village. Even Kakashi was aware of the fact that Naruto was stronger then Sasuke. Even post time skip I haven't seen any conclusive proof that in an even fight Sasuke could win. Honestly the only chance Sasuke has had when fighting Naruto is the fact that Naruto has to significantly hold back or he would kill Sasuke. Even during the Valley of the End its obvious from the way its written that Naruto is not trying as hard as he possibly could for most of the fight.

UBER WRONGNESS....so wrong i could cry, now seriously, do you actually mean that???


Exactly. Add in the fact that he has the kyuubi and you have a child prodigy. Just look at what Sasuke had to do just to stay on par with Naruto. He couldn't even beat Naruto with Sharingan, which is why he went to Orochimaru.

tell me you are joking too....


I vehemently disagree. But I'll leave it at that.

i also absurdly disagree and i want to leave it at that, but i guess i will reply anyway....


Naruto’s Taijutsu is far better than Sasuke
acutally it was the kyubi's strecthy-mega-pwn-long-reach-arms that swirled aroung smacking without any coherent thought of a style...

[spinsane]

In Kabuto's cards (and in the pamphlets at the Chuunin exam) they show 5 areas in the charts that indicate a ninja's strength. Weapons/Tools, Genjutsu, Taijutsu, Blood and Ninjutsu.

If we are talking about Taijutsu at the exclusion of another other types--

Neji's Jyuuken falls entirely under the realm of Taijutsu and doesn't necessarily need to be used in conjunction with Byakugan to be effective. Pretty much every move Neji has is Taijutsu, his chakra control is just so amazing that he can be very aggressive or defensive without even bothering with seals. He needs Byakugan to make direct attacks on someone's Chakra circulatory system, but he doesn't need Byakugan to hurt somebody with Chakra.

Sasuke's Taijutsu advantage (within the group) lies almost entirely in his Sharingan. He is as fast as Lee, but can't maintain that speed as long. I doubt he is as strong either. Without the predictive eye, memorizing eye, and mesmerizing eye, Sasuke probably can't keeup with Lee or Neji.

Lee uses almost no stamina to maintain his high-speed level of movement and is physically stronger than everyone in the group. Unlocking Gates allows for additional Taijutsu pwnage, but at a sacrifice to his stamina.

Naruto has the worst skills but can definitely take the most hits and heal the fastest with his kyuubi. If we are excluding the inclusion of anything but taijutsu, then Naruto isn't helpless without KgB, as he can still tap into Kyuubi chakra to increase his speed, strength, and resilience. His fundamentals are the worst, but he's the toughest to hurt in the group, and as hear in the J-Man vs Orochi fight, Endurance can be superior to Technique.

Excluding Doujutsu/Kekke Genkai, Ninjutsu, and Genjutsu-
-Naruto
-Neji
-Rock
-Sasuke

Naruto beats Neji in the Chuunin exams without KgBs (that last one in the hole doesn't count, Neji could hardly walk).

Neji regularly beats Rock Lee.

Without the Sharingan, Rock Lee wtfpwns Sasuke in Stamina and physical Strength.

Rock's Gates may allow him to harm Neji, but I don't think Neji's Kaiten has any openings regardless of how fast you are. Also, Naruto has basically died a few times but always gets up in the end, Rock would just wear himself out beating Naruto up, and then Naruto could just squeeze some more Kyuubi out and poke him.
---------
If we include Doujutsus and Taijutsu enhancing Ninjutsu, my list is...
-Naruto
-Neji
-Sasuke
-Rock

Sasuke's 3-part Sharingan advantage puts him leagues ahead of Rock and allows him to keep up with a Tailed Naruto. His new Flicker-step thing may have some potent Taijutsu applications.

Neji has still got to be on top. Sasuke's Mesmerizing Eye has no effect on Byakugan and his Predictive eye is no better than Byakugan's Eye of Insight. Sasuke also can't use Jyuuken because it won't do him any good as he simply doesn't have Neji's chakra control or the Byakugan necessary to take full advantage of it.

I think Naruto is close though, KgBs can make up for a lot of the advantages Doujutsus provide. In terms of speed and misdirection, he can even catch Neji's Byakugan off-gaurd. However, he can't handle Genjutsu, and without Kyuubi kaiten pwns him. Even with Kyuubi, Kaiten did a number on him. I don't think it's fair to count a tailed naruto in this, that's just going to far, Kyuubi chakra, yes, but tails- no.

So... Why is Naruto on top? -Uzumaki Naruto Nisen~rendan Nomaki.
Endurance and total output. Neji's Kaiten is an ultimate defense, but so is KgB, Neji can't really aggressively approach Naruto because he can't detect the real from the fakes. In this sense, Naruto just throws a hundred clones and puts neji in a constant Kaiten until he runs out of chakra. And Naruto wins. If he only uses KgBs vs sasuke and doesn't even face him, then Sasuke's Genjutsu can never really take hold of him as a win condition. After several hours of fighting, the Kyuubi chakra gives him the endurance to out-last sasuke.

[Oblivion]

@spinsane: i dont agree with all of it but your arguments are well laid out.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

In Kabuto's cards (and in the pamphlets at the Chuunin exam) they show 5 areas in the charts that indicate a ninja's strength. Weapons/Tools, Genjutsu, Taijutsu, Blood and Ninjutsu.

If we are talking about Taijutsu at the exclusion of another other types--

Neji's Jyuuken falls entirely under the realm of Taijutsu and doesn't necessarily need to be used in conjunction with Byakugan to be effective. Pretty much every move Neji has is Taijutsu, his chakra control is just so amazing that he can be very aggressive or defensive without even bothering with seals. He needs Byakugan to make direct attacks on someone's Chakra circulatory system, but he doesn't need Byakugan to hurt somebody with Chakra.

Sasuke's Taijutsu advantage (within the group) lies almost entirely in his Sharingan. He is as fast as Lee, but can't maintain that speed as long. I doubt he is as strong either. Without the predictive eye, memorizing eye, and mesmerizing eye, Sasuke probably can't keeup with Lee or Neji.

Lee uses almost no stamina to maintain his high-speed level of movement and is physically stronger than everyone in the group. Unlocking Gates allows for additional Taijutsu pwnage, but at a sacrifice to his stamina.

Naruto has the worst skills but can definitely take the most hits and heal the fastest with his kyuubi. If we are excluding the inclusion of anything but taijutsu, then Naruto isn't helpless without KgB, as he can still tap into Kyuubi chakra to increase his speed, strength, and resilience. His fundamentals are the worst, but he's the toughest to hurt in the group, and as hear in the J-Man vs Orochi fight, Endurance can be superior to Technique.

Excluding Doujutsu/Kekke Genkai, Ninjutsu, and Genjutsu-
-Naruto
-Neji
-Rock
-Sasuke

Naruto beats Neji in the Chuunin exams without KgBs (that last one in the hole doesn't count, Neji could hardly walk).

Neji regularly beats Rock Lee.

Without the Sharingan, Rock Lee wtfpwns Sasuke in Stamina and physical Strength.

Rock's Gates may allow him to harm Neji, but I don't think Neji's Kaiten has any openings regardless of how fast you are. Also, Naruto has basically died a few times but always gets up in the end, Rock would just wear himself out beating Naruto up, and then Naruto could just squeeze some more Kyuubi out and poke him.
---------
If we include Doujutsus and Taijutsu enhancing Ninjutsu, my list is...
-Naruto
-Neji
-Sasuke
-Rock

Sasuke's 3-part Sharingan advantage puts him leagues ahead of Rock and allows him to keep up with a Tailed Naruto. His new Flicker-step thing may have some potent Taijutsu applications.

Neji has still got to be on top. Sasuke's Mesmerizing Eye has no effect on Byakugan and his Predictive eye is no better than Byakugan's Eye of Insight. Sasuke also can't use Jyuuken because it won't do him any good as he simply doesn't have Neji's chakra control or the Byakugan necessary to take full advantage of it.

I think Naruto is close though, KgBs can make up for a lot of the advantages Doujutsus provide. In terms of speed and misdirection, he can even catch Neji's Byakugan off-gaurd. However, he can't handle Genjutsu, and without Kyuubi kaiten pwns him. Even with Kyuubi, Kaiten did a number on him. I don't think it's fair to count a tailed naruto in this, that's just going to far, Kyuubi chakra, yes, but tails- no.

So... Why is Naruto on top? -Uzumaki Naruto Nisen~rendan Nomaki.
Endurance and total output. Neji's Kaiten is an ultimate defense, but so is KgB, Neji can't really aggressively approach Naruto because he can't detect the real from the fakes. In this sense, Naruto just throws a hundred clones and puts neji in a constant Kaiten until he runs out of chakra. And Naruto wins. If he only uses KgBs vs sasuke and doesn't even face him, then Sasuke's Genjutsu can never really take hold of him as a win condition. After several hours of fighting, the Kyuubi chakra gives him the endurance to out-last sasuke.

Why is it not fair to count Naruto's tailed form? I think it would be unfair not to count it. To me, that just shows how much stronger Naruto is than the others. Like I said before, if you don't count it then the list would be invalid because that is one of Naruto's powers. The only way you could possibly take away that power is if you knew how strong Naruto would be without the kyuubi sealed inside of him. The kyuubi interrupts Naruto's own flow of chakra, so why would it be alright to count the kyuubi's disadvantages but not alright to count its advantages?

ANBU4U and Oblivion, what exactly do you disagree with. The fact that Sasuke could never beat Naruto unless he had the Cursed Seal? Or the fact that Sasuke took some super steroid type drug given to him by one of Orochimaru's subordinates? Or the fact that Naruto saved him from Gaara, and actually beat Gaara by himself? Or that Naruto saved Sakura twice between the Chunnin Exams and the fight on the roof? Or the fact that Sakura had to save Sasuke?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/176/14/

and

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/176/11/

What is there to disagree about???

[Oblivion]

1.

Why is it not fair to count Naruto's tailed form?

this is about taijutsu. and kyubi using naruto's body as a medium to smack aroung with his own chakra isnt naruto nor taijutsu neither naruto's taijutsu.

Naruto rengan is an example of how naruto fights and uses his taijutsu.

2.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/176/14/

and

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/176/11/

What is there to disagree about???

READ OMG READ. it cleary says that sasuke doesnt fear that naruto is stronger then him but how rapid naruto has developed his skills. its that sasuke fears he isnt training enough.

and what is with the 2nd page, it doesnt say anything to help your statement...

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

1.


this is about taijutsu. and kyubi using naruto's body as a medium to smack aroung with his own chakra isnt naruto nor taijutsu neither naruto's taijutsu.

Naruto rengan is an example of how naruto fights and uses his taijutsu.

2.


READ OMG READ. it cleary says that sasuke doesnt fear that naruto is stronger then him but how rapid naruto has developed his skills. its that sasuke fears he isnt training enough.

and what is with the 2nd page, it doesnt say anything to help your statement...

First of all, everyone uses chakra when they're fighting. Whether it's Taijutsu, Genjutsu, or Ninjutsu, chakra is always used. The only difference is that Naruto has two sources of chakra. Also, a lot of Naruto's natural chakra is used just to contain the kyuubi, so how is it fair for Naruto to use chakra to contain the kyuubi but not fair for Naruto to use the kyuubi's chakra. I don't think that I can simplify it anymore than that. Saying that the kyuubi chakra isn't Naruto's means nothing because none of us know how good Naruto would be without the kyuubi. Naruto could fight without using the kyuubi but that's not the same as not having the kyuubi. The kyuubi effects Naruto's chakra and his chakra control, so we can accept the kyuubi's drawbacks but not it's advantages???(I could've sworn that I said this already). Unless you know how strong Naruto would be without the kyuubi being sealed within him, it's unfair to take away it's advantages. The fact of the matter is that Naruto can use the kyuubi's chakra and he was trained to use the kyuubi's chakra.
FYI: The Rasengan is NOT Taijutsu, it's ninjutsu.


As far as the secomd part of your post, where does it say that? Maybe I'm blind, but it doesn't say that. You're implying that that's what he meant. Even so, Naruto progressing faster than Sasuke should be impossible if Sasuke's a genius and Naruto's not, right??? It didn't say anything about Sasuke not training enough, he just wasn't making as much progress as Naruto.

As for the second link, that's just to show you where it says that Naruto could've killed Sasuke. Kakashi asked Sasuke if he was trying to kill Naruto, but said that Naruto could've killed Sasuke. There's a big difference between "trying" and "could've".

Bottomline, Naruto has never taken any enhancement drugs to get where he's at, but Sasuke has. Didn't Barry Bonds just get in trouble for that same thing? The only reason people want to exclude the kyuubi is because that's an automatic win for Naruto, which kinda answers the topic.

[Neuroff]

The point where Sasuke realizes Naruto is stronger than him is the fight against Gaara. Sasuke couldn't touch Gaara, but Naruto beat him. Sasuke only caught up thanks to CS2.

[DarkManSharingan32]

First: Speculation is not truth.
Just because Tsunade GUESSES that Sasuke used drugs, does not mean he did.... and I believe that Sasuke himself says he denied any "extra help".

Second:
Who cares when who surpassed who. Naruto "surpassed" Sasuke only when he started using his Kyuubi chakra. Sasuke passes him back with CS. This is the staple of the manga... these two push eachother to greater heights.

Pure Taijutsu... Naruto is a brawler without the capacity to knock anyone out with a single punch (Combos keep him going). Sasuke is a well-trained Martial artist.... and as such its really tough for me to conceive Naruto beating him in this realm... especially given Sasuke's speed (which is giving any Akatsuki-member trouble at this point).

[spinsane]

Why is it not fair to count Naruto's tailed form? I think it would be unfair not to count it. To me, that just shows how much stronger Naruto is than the others. Like I said before, if you don't count it then the list would be invalid because that is one of Naruto's powers. The only way you could possibly take away that power is if you knew how strong Naruto would be without the kyuubi sealed inside of him. The kyuubi interrupts Naruto's own flow of chakra, so why would it be alright to count the kyuubi's disadvantages but not alright to count its advantages?

ANBU4U and Oblivion, what exactly do you disagree with. The fact that Sasuke could never beat Naruto unless he had the Cursed Seal? Or the fact that Sasuke took some super steroid type drug given to him by one of Orochimaru's subordinates? Or the fact that Naruto saved him from Gaara, and actually beat Gaara by himself? Or that Naruto saved Sakura twice between the Chunnin Exams and the fight on the roof? Or the fact that Sakura had to save Sasuke?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/176/14/

and

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/176/11/

What is there to disagree about???

There is a difference between using Kyuubi Chakra and Sprouting a Tail. Using Kyuubi is fair, but sprouting tails is Naruto allowing the Kyuubi to use him, at that point is it really naruto fighting?

Naruto has the worst Taijutsu, but I don't think he'd lose to any of the other 3 in a Taijutsu battle. With or without KgB/Doujutsus/Gates.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

The point where Sasuke realizes Naruto is stronger than him is the fight against Gaara. Sasuke couldn't touch Gaara, but Naruto beat him. Sasuke only caught up thanks to CS2.

I so agree.


First: Speculation is not truth.
Just because Tsunade GUESSES that Sasuke used drugs, does not mean he did.... and I believe that Sasuke himself says he denied any "extra help".

Second:
Who cares when who surpassed who. Naruto "surpassed" Sasuke only when he started using his Kyuubi chakra. Sasuke passes him back with CS. This is the staple of the manga... these two push eachother to greater heights.

Pure Taijutsu... Naruto is a brawler without the capacity to knock anyone out with a single punch (Combos keep him going). Sasuke is a well-trained Martial artist.... and as such its really tough for me to conceive Naruto beating him in this realm... especially given Sasuke's speed (which is giving any Akatsuki-member trouble at this point).

First:
Wow. What manga are you reading???
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/184/06/
That looks like a drug to me.

Second:
Wrong. He's been using the kyuubi's chakra since they fought Haku. And the only time he used the kyuubi's chakra during the fight with Gaara was at the very end of the fight when his forehead protector flew off. That means that he made Gaara go into his ultimate form all by himself. Sasuke was looking extra pathetic on the ground. He knew that he couldn't compete with Naruto at that point in time. Why do you think he was thinking about it all the time. Even when Naruto saved Sakura by picking her up and run on the water, you can tell that Sasuke was just at a lower level than Naruto. Naruto was beating Gaara without using the kyuubi, and Gaara was using his tailed beast form. That says something about how strong Naruto is.

Third:
Who has actually been knocked out with a single blow? When has Naruto, Lee, Neji, or Sasuke been knock out from a single punch? And I don't remember Sasuke hitting anybody as hard as Naruto hit Haku.


There is a difference between using Kyuubi Chakra and Sprouting a Tail. Using Kyuubi is fair, but sprouting tails is Naruto allowing the Kyuubi to use him, at that point is it really naruto fighting?

Naruto has the worst Taijutsu, but I don't think he'd lose to any of the other 3 in a Taijutsu battle. With or without KgB/Doujutsus/Gates.

No. Naruto is in control until the 4th tail comes out. What difference does it make? It's still Naruto body and he's still focused on the person that Naruto wants to fight or kill(probably kill more than fight). Think about it, if this fight actually took place, who do you think would still be standing at the end. I can't care less what happens, I sure that Naruto would still be standing. The question is very general so the general answer is Naruto. There are no circumstances named, so there are no "if's or "but's".

[Jehuty]

I so agree.



First:
Wow. What manga are you reading???
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/184/06/
That looks like a drug to me.

Second:
Wrong. He's been using the kyuubi's chakra since they fought Haku. And the only time he used the kyuubi's chakra during the fight with Gaara was at the very end of the fight when his forehead protector flew off. That means that he made Gaara go into his ultimate form all by himself. Sasuke was looking extra pathetic on the ground. He knew that he couldn't compete with Naruto at that point in time. Why do you think he was thinking about it all the time. Even when Naruto saved Sakura by picking her up and run on the water, you can tell that Sasuke was just at a lower level than Naruto. Naruto was beating Gaara without using the kyuubi, and Gaara was using his tailed beast form. That says something about how strong Naruto is.

Third:
Who has actually been knocked out with a single blow? When has Naruto, Lee, Neji, or Sasuke been knock out from a single punch? And I don't remember Sasuke hitting anybody as hard as Naruto hit Haku.



No. Naruto is in control until the 4th tail comes out. What difference does it make? It's still Naruto body and he's still focused on the person that Naruto wants to fight or kill(probably kill more than fight). Think about it, if this fight actually took place, who do you think would still be standing at the end. I can't care less what happens, I sure that Naruto would still be standing. The question is very general so the general answer is Naruto. There are no circumstances named, so there are no "if's or "but's".
Yeah, I'm pretty sure if Naruto were cut down to a torso, he'd just regrow everything.

[spinsane]

He loses control after the fourth tail, but he isn't entirely Naruto when a tail is out.

The Kyuubi feeds off of Naruto's chakra, and, as Kyuubi gets stronger or as the seal weakens (I think it's the former more so than the latter), Kyuubi begins taking over Naruto much like Orochi's body-stealing method.

If there are two entities living in Naruto, do both the entities count as a singular Naruto? The Bijuu can be pulled from a Jinchuuriki, so I'd say that they are co-existing. There is a clear difference between the Bijuu and the host. Naruto letting Kyuubi take over and Naruto using Kyuubi chakra, is, in terms of literary meaning, very very very different.

If we're to look at Naruto's strength, part of it is to will Chakra from Kyuubi. IMO, it is not a strength of Naruto for Naruto to give into Kyuubi. That is how Kishi is writing the story anyways.

I believe that it is important to make a distinction, but, technically speaking, I agree. It is all technically Naruto, and he is technically the strongest.

[Dice]

No. Naruto is in control until the 4th tail comes out. What difference does it make? It's still Naruto body and he's still focused on the person that Naruto wants to fight or kill(probably kill more than fight). Think about it, if this fight actually took place, who do you think would still be standing at the end. I can't care less what happens, I sure that Naruto would still be standing. The question is very general so the general answer is Naruto. There are no circumstances named, so there are no "if's or "but's".

I'm totally against counting the tailed-forms...at least his (until now strongest form) the four-tailed-form. It's clearly shown that the Kyuubi is in control in this state. First of all you see that this time Naruto is IN the cage of the kyuubi. Second: the name of the chapter is "Loss of control". Third: Yamato states that this form is a miniature kyuubi with Naruto acting as skeleton. Fifth: Kabuto says his not even conscious (later Naruto says the same). And most important: He hurt Sakura!
So don't tell me we should count the taijutsu used in this state as "his" taijutsu.
But in fact we can say that the kyuubi has the strongest taijutsu XP

When I said that an emotional state (or near death state) is needed to go kyuubi (I'm still going with that after reading this chapters. Because the kyuubi uses every chance to take over and if Naruto is near unconscious or in berserk state is easy for him to take over. Willing to save Sasuke as fast as possible Naruto didn't really bother to decline the "help" of the kyuubi). You said that's why Yamato is there. To keep him in check. So theoretically you can't count this in a fight.
And something else I was wondering about: Yamato says that he shouldn't rely on the kyuubi's chakra. What did he exactly mean? (1)The stated when Naruto uses some of his chakra or (2) the tailed states. Right now I'm a little confused. He says that he will surpress his chakra completly. That indicates that he meant the (1)-thing. But against Kakuzu Naruto is clearly using some of the kyuubi's chakra (look at the eyes). So it would be (2). And I myself do think that it's rather (2) as this his how the kyuubi is supposed to use.

About the disadventages and adventages you were speaking. It's true that it's hard to judge how strong he were without the kyuubi and it's true that he always needs some chakra to go against the kyuubi's chakra. But I'm also thinking that this was something which makes his own chakra stronger (kind of the weights-thingy with Lee). So this two factor are approximately balancing. each other. Additionally he can use the chakra of the kyuubi on his own (in the future he might be able to use it perfectly).

And about the drug thing with Sasuke. So you are saying that he uses the cursed seal and drugs? Wasn't the only reason of this pill to push him to level two, was it? And I can't remember him using any other drugs.
Ohh and let's compare cursed seal lvl 2 and the kyuubi-state of Naruto. Which one is more aware of his actions and which one is going beserk?

Many things in a manga are not cleary stated. So this are things you can interpret like you want (that's why there is this discussion since a few days). And I think that's a nice thing. If everything would be clear it would be kind of boring. But I think it's really obvious that in the four-tailed-state Naruto has no control at all. No not only obvious...it's even clearly stated and therefore a fact.

[Jehuty]

The pill made him stronger in addition to accelerating his curse seal to Level 2. That's why the Chidori, instead of falling, created a stalemate in the face of the Rasengan.

Naruto is in the cage of the Kyuubi when he goes four-tails... but he's the one who allows himself to go in there. The Kyuubi doesn't snatch him inside. Later, he tells the Kyuubi that he doesn't want to see him anymore. That's quite the amount of control.

[Decorus]

Actually he followed Sasuke into the cage.

The pill did not make him stronger it just accelerated the speed at which the cursed seal spread.

[Jehuty]

Actually he followed Sasuke into the cage.

The pill did not make him stronger it just accelerated the speed at which the cursed seal spread.
He followed his mind's image of Sasuke. Either way, it was his choice.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/219/11/

[Dice]

If it was his choice to offer his body for this moment doesn't matter at all. Fact is that is has no control when he is in the four-tailed-state.

[Decorus]

The pill accelerated the spread of the cursed seal thats all it did. The cursed seal would have reached that point regardless, but Sasuke would likely have been dead.

[Dice]

Actually I was reffering to the thing with Naruto and the cage^^

[Decorus]

The cage is simple Naruto saw Sasuke and followed what he thought was Sasuke right into the hands of Kyuubi.

[badluckartist]

Jeez this is the dumbest, most off-topic argument I've seen in a while. Who cares about following what in the cage and who had control over what? The cursed seal explicitly enhances killing intent (see: Juugo), and the Kyuubi supplements Naruto's personality more and more the more he uses it. The point is is that they're both counted as unnatural abilities and forces the real issue of this thread:

Is it a question of supreme, overall ability, or is it a question of natural, untainted prowess?

If the former, it's obviously Naruto in his four-tailed state.
If it's the latter, it could really be any of the other 3, depending on a number of circumstances.

If we count Lee's gates, then it's Lee, by far.
If we are counting sheer technique and specialization, Neji.
If we are counting stupid ridiculous awesome gayness, then we have a winner- Sasuke.

It's vague questions like that that create so many stupid arguments. Make a thread for it and b**** there.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Jeez this is the dumbest, most off-topic argument I've seen in a while. Who cares about following what in the cage and who had control over what? The cursed seal explicitly enhances killing intent (see: Juugo), and the Kyuubi supplements Naruto's personality more and more the more he uses it. The point is is that they're both counted as unnatural abilities and forces the real issue of this thread:

Is it a question of supreme, overall ability, or is it a question of natural, untainted prowess?

If the former, it's obviously Naruto in his four-tailed state.
If it's the latter, it could really be any of the other 3, depending on a number of circumstances.

If we count Lee's gates, then it's Lee, by far.
If we are counting sheer technique and specialization, Neji.
If we are counting stupid ridiculous awesome gayness, then we have a winner- Sasuke.

It's vague questions like that that create so many stupid arguments. Make a thread for it and b**** there.

I've already said the exact same thing that you just wrote, so thank you for adding nothing to the conversation. If you think it's the dumbest, most off-topic argument you've seen in a while, then don't reply. Obviously, the thread was intentionally vague, other wise there wouldn't be a reason to discuss it, Douche. So thank you for stating the obvious and I look forward to reading more common knowledge from you.

[Oblivion]

Obviously, the thread was intentionally vague

no it isnt, it says taijutsu, and taijutsu is pure hand to hand. no friggin balls-to-the-walls-kyubi-one-hit.


If you think it's the dumbest, most off-topic argument you've seen in a while, then don't reply.

he is trying you to bring you all back on course. and if anyone then everybody who is going off-topic shouldnt have replied at first


I've already said the exact same thing that you just wrote, so thank you for adding nothing to the conversation.

this has already been said by about everyone on the naruto message board twice and i sure did it more then that.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

no it isnt, it says taijutsu, and taijutsu is pure hand to hand. no friggin balls-to-the-walls-kyubi-one-hit.



he is trying you to bring you all back on course. and if anyone then everybody who is going off-topic shouldnt have replied at first



this has already been said by about everyone on the naruto message board twice and i sure did it more then that.

Yes, it is vague. Taijutsu maybe pure hand to hand combat but it also uses chakra. Naruto uses the kyuubi's chakra, therefore that can be considered Taijutsu. Like I said before, if it wasn't vague then there wouldn't be an argument. I can go even further and say that if there are two different winners in two different circumstances, like I've seen in numerous posts, then this thread is vague.

The reason we are going off topic is because of that fact. The reason we keep going off topic is to solidify our arguments, therefore it pertains to the thread. Also, wouldn't that make you a hypocrite since this doesn't pertain to the thread.

As for the last part, like I said before, it's common knowledge.

[Decorus]

It doesn't really matter if its pure Taijutsu Rock Lee would lose to Neji who simply has a better style that will win.

If its including all the factors then Naruto would win.

The problem comes down to if its Naruto vrs Rock Lee or whomever and they are seriously fighting intending to kill each other Kyuubi would come out and then Naruto would win. (Well Kyuubi, but thats pretty much Naruto anyway.)

[mrcongojack]

When going with pure taijutsu alone, taking away all forms of ninjutsu (including doujutsu), Rock Lee would win. Sure, Neji can whoop him with his Byakugan and whatnot, but his gentle-fist style relies too much on Byakugan (which allows him to see chakra points) for it to be as effective.

Besides, any argument about Taijutsu is slanted if Kyubi is included, simply because Kyubi > anyone without Sharingan or Mokuton (which is the vast majority of people). 4 tails Naruto was whooping Orochimaru and probably would have won had Yamato not gotten him under control. He'd probably kill everyone in a 4 mi.2 radius.

[Decorus]

Even Mokuton or sharingan can only slow Kyuubi down for awhile. Yamato has problems keeping Kyuubi in check and all Kyuubi has to do is take off the necklace and Shodaime's Mokuton is useless to even slow him down. People seem to be under this delusion that people can maintain thier Kyuubi control powers indefinitely. They can't and when it runs out Kyuubi will eat them.

Important lesson Number 1 about Gentle Fist.
You don't need to see chakra points for it to be effective. The Chakra point technique is one that very few Hyuuga learn (I know of 3 who can use it) Rock Lee loses because typically when you use a hard martial art against a soft martial art the soft style wins. Rock Lee can't block Neji's attacks without getting hurt, he can't afford to nearly get hit, nor can he afford to allow Neji to block his attacks. If any of those three things happens the gentle fist style allows Neji to insert his chakra into Rock Lee's chakra system and injure him.

If you will look back at the Neji vrs Hinata fight you will notice at every point of contact between them Neji was injuring and blocking Hinata's chakra points. Neji also has his wind palm technique which allows him to use gentle fist attacks from mid range. Then he has the whirl which allows him to block any attack from a distance in a complete sphere around him.

Rock Lee vrs Neji's Gentle Fist no matter if Neji is using his Byakugan or not will end with Rock Lee losing.

[mrcongojack]

Even Mokuton or sharingan can only slow Kyuubi down for awhile. Yamato has problems keeping Kyuubi in check and all Kyuubi has to do is take off the necklace and Shodaime's Mokuton is useless to even slow him down. People seem to be under this delusion that people can maintain thier Kyuubi control powers indefinitely. They can't and when it runs out Kyuubi will eat them.

Important lesson Number 1 about Gentle Fist.
You don't need to see chakra points for it to be effective. The Chakra point technique is one that very few Hyuuga learn (I know of 3 who can use it) Rock Lee loses because typically when you use a hard martial art against a soft martial art the soft style wins. Rock Lee can't block Neji's attacks without getting hurt, he can't afford to nearly get hit, nor can he afford to allow Neji to block his attacks. If any of those three things happens the gentle fist style allows Neji to insert his chakra into Rock Lee's chakra system and injure him.

If you will look back at the Neji vrs Hinata fight you will notice at every point of contact between them Neji was injuring and blocking Hinata's chakra points. Neji also has his wind palm technique which allows him to use gentle fist attacks from mid range. Then he has the whirl which allows him to block any attack from a distance in a complete sphere around him.

Rock Lee vrs Neji's Gentle Fist no matter if Neji is using his Byakugan or not will end with Rock Lee losing.
Exactly, so Naruto's Kyuubi-power couldn't be used if we are judging them by taijutsu alone. And the only reason you know of three people that can use the gentle fist is because we've only seen three use it, all Hyuga, so since Neji, who is a branch family member, was using it it is reasonable to assume that most shinobi of the Hyuga clan learn this technique.

Alright, to make this debate a bit easier, let's have a working definition of "taijutsu". I'm going to say that it is the use of techniques requiring no chakra elemental manipulation, hand seals, bloodline abilities, or weapons. So this would include the Eight Chakra Gates and that whirly "perfect defense" of Neji's.

If Lee and Neji (without Byakugan) were to fight, I think Lee would win. While it is possible Neji would have a good idea where Lee's chakra points are, there is more than likely variations between people (due to things like body fat, height, muscle mass, etc...) so pinpointing them would be a bit difficult, but he may manage. Without his Byakugan, though, Lee would have more opportunities to sneak up on him. Soft styles might have an advantage over hard styles (in fiction, only. Ever seen a tai chi guy get into a fight with a boxer? It ain't pretty...) but they require a gimmick to work. For the Gentle Fist, it is the "Byakugan". That's why they turn it on before they fight (and you might say, "they only do that in case someone is trying to sneak attack ...." which wouldn't explain why both Hinata and Neji had the Byakugan activated during their fight in the Chunin exams... I doubt they would expect a sneak attack, seeing as it was a one-on-one fight and they had a good idea of each other's styles and would be able to assume that neither of them knew how to do any form of solid bunshin (kage, mizu, etc...) seeing as it is rare to find even chunin who know that technique.) The Byakugan is what allows them to see the chakra points. they might have a good idea where the points are, but without the Byakugan it's basically just guess work and that can be dangerous, seeing as Rock Lee punches pretty hard and pretty fast. You miss the chakra point and hit, say, some random muscle or something, it would leave some bruising but that wouldn't slow down Lee, who's trained so much that he fights from muscle memory alone (see Gaara v. Lee fight in the Chunin exams). The only way Neji could hope to keep Lee at bay from running up behind him and taking him out is with his "perfect defense", which has to be expensive in terms of chakra ( I mean, he's releasing chakra from every point on his body and creates a "dome" of chakra around him. That looks like a lot of chakra!) That defense is probably best used sparingly, when you know when and where the enemy is coming from, something which the Byakugan allows them to do. Without it, he'd be at a huge disadvantage, and Lee would exploit that.

In short, I think Lee has the best taijutsu out of all the Konoha 12 and if it was a fight with pure taijutsu, he would beat Sasuke, Naruto, and Neji, only because he's had the most practice and experience with this style of fighting seeing as it is the only one available to him. That being said, I doubt there would ever come a time when Sasuke, Neji, and Naruto would ever be without their ninjutsu or genjutsu (in Sasuke's case).

[Oblivion]

hile it is possible Neji would have a good idea where Lee's chakra points are, there is more than likely variations between people (due to things like body fat, height, muscle mass, etc...)

i think this is absolute same in everyone. just like everything in us right now is about the same, even in fat person, each ganglion is located at about the same spot. (dunno if its called ganglion or something else, but i mean the points where a lot of nevers are put together)

[mrcongojack]

Yes, but that's just one mass of tissue on the body located on the spinal cord, whereas the chakra points are located throughout the body and would be subject to some differences. Even if they were the same, for Neji to try to find them sans Byakugan would still be difficult, like a doctor trying to locate a rib or something without an xray machine. He could probably do it, but could he do it while the guy is moving faster than most people see? Lee's a fast dude, heck while opening the first gate he gets too fast to see.

[The Noobslayer]

think alot of you are underestimating chidori nagashi coupled with the sharingan. Sasuke can track the fastest opponents with his sharingan, and then as soon as they get close use chidori nagashi lke a full body melee shield. However, the nagashi temporarily PARALYZES an opponent, a deadly feature in 1 on 1 combat.

[Neuroff]

And since when is Chidori Nagashi taijutsu?

[Oblivion]

And since when is Chidori Nagashi taijutsu?

:p

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Even Mokuton or sharingan can only slow Kyuubi down for awhile. Yamato has problems keeping Kyuubi in check and all Kyuubi has to do is take off the necklace and Shodaime's Mokuton is useless to even slow him down. People seem to be under this delusion that people can maintain thier Kyuubi control powers indefinitely. They can't and when it runs out Kyuubi will eat them.


Who told you that???
Mokuton and Sharingan can only slow the Kyuubi down for a while? Really?
Then you used Yamato as an example? Yamato has some of the 1st cells, he isn't a clone. His Mokuton is way weaker than the Shodaime's mokuton. Also, we know that the MS controls the Kyuubi. You said that Shodaime's Mokuton is useless without the necklace but you are wrong. Yamato's Mokuton is useless without the necklace. They are not the same, Yamato is just a much weaker version. You have your fact all mixed up.


Exactly, so Naruto's Kyuubi-power couldn't be used if we are judging them by taijutsu alone.

Really???
If that's the case, the answer to the thread is irrelevant because it's not accurate. If you leave out a factor that is actually a part of that person, the results can't be accurate. The fact still remains that Naruto has the better Taijutsu. Blame Kishi.

[mrcongojack]

Really???
If that's the case, the answer to the thread is irrelevant because it's not accurate. If you leave out a factor that is actually a part of that person, the results can't be accurate. The fact still remains that Naruto has the better Taijutsu. Blame Kishi.
We're not judging these fighters as a whole, just their taijutsu. The title of this thread is "Who has the best taijutsu", not "who is the best shinobi". And the fact is, Naruto doesn't have excellent taijutsu when compared to taijutsu specialists like Gai or Lee, probably because he was never given training seeing as he was a social outcast and no one would train him. That doesn't mean he isn't a strong shinobi; he can defeat plenty of shinobi with the ninjutsu he has learned, like the rasengan and shadow clone jutsu. But if we are to go on pure taijutsu alone, Naruto would lose. If this thread was about "who has the most chakra" or "who has the best offensive jutsu", Naruto might win (he'd probably win the former contest), but when it comes to taijutsu I think most people would agree that Naruto isn't in the running.

[Jehuty]

We're not judging these fighters as a whole, just their taijutsu. The title of this thread is "Who has the best taijutsu", not "who is the best shinobi". And the fact is, Naruto doesn't have excellent taijutsu when compared to taijutsu specialists like Gai or Lee, probably because he was never given training seeing as he was a social outcast and no one would train him. That doesn't mean he isn't a strong shinobi; he can defeat plenty of shinobi with the ninjutsu he has learned, like the rasengan and shadow clone jutsu. But if we are to go on pure taijutsu alone, Naruto would lose. If this thread was about "who has the most chakra" or "who has the best offensive jutsu", Naruto might win (he'd probably win the former contest), but when it comes to taijutsu I think most people would agree that Naruto isn't in the running.
Dude, it's an integral part of his taijutsu. "Uzumaki Naruto Rendan" is considered a taijutsu move, despite the fact that it involves kagebunshin. The fact is, he's the only one who can use them for taijutsu like that, so treat it like a kekkei genkai. That'd be like counting out the gates, the Sharingan, and Byakugan.

[mrcongojack]

Dude, it's an integral part of his taijutsu. "Uzumaki Naruto Rendan" is considered a taijutsu move, despite the fact that it involves kagebunshin. The fact is, he's the only one who can use them for taijutsu like that, so treat it like a kekkei genkai. That'd be like counting out the gates, the Sharingan, and Byakugan.

Dude, if you'd read my above post containing my definition of taijutsu, I do in fact leave out bloodlines. I spent the majority of the post arguing that without the Byakugan, Neji's taijutsu would suffer. And it's not that noone else can use it, it's that no one else could use it as much as he does efficiently. If, for example, Kakashi wanted to use "Uzumaki Naruto Rendan" (which is basically a ripoff of Sasuke's "Lion's Barrage", which in turn is ripped off of Lee's taijutsu move), he could, once or twice. Besides, Naruto hasn't used that technique since his pre-Rasengan days. In fact, his use of the "Uzumaki Naruto Rendan" is an example of how bad his taijutsu is: he can't make an effective offensive technique without the use of ninjutsu. Without ninjutsu, he would pretty much lack any offensive abilities, unlike Sasuke, Lee, and (to a lesser extent IMO) Neji. Sasuke and Lee can rely on their speed to make decent offensive moves, and Neji can still use Gentle Fist (although I think it is weak without Byakugan.) Once again, this isn't a contest of who's bloodline is strongest, who would win in a fight, etc... It's about taijutsu, and Naruto's style isn't that great.

[Jehuty]

Dude, if you'd read my above post containing my definition of taijutsu, I do in fact leave out bloodlines. I spent the majority of the post arguing that without the Byakugan, Neji's taijutsu would suffer. And it's not that noone else can use it, it's that no one else could use it as much as he does efficiently. If, for example, Kakashi wanted to use "Uzumaki Naruto Rendan" (which is basically a ripoff of Sasuke's "Lion's Barrage", which in turn is ripped off of Lee's taijutsu move), he could, once or twice. Besides, Naruto hasn't used that technique since his pre-Rasengan days. In fact, his use of the "Uzumaki Naruto Rendan" is an example of how bad his taijutsu is: he can't make an effective offensive technique without the use of ninjutsu. Without ninjutsu, he would pretty much lack any offensive abilities, unlike Sasuke, Lee, and (to a lesser extent IMO) Neji. Sasuke and Lee can rely on their speed to make decent offensive moves, and Neji can still use Gentle Fist (although I think it is weak without Byakugan.) Once again, this isn't a contest of who's bloodline is strongest, who would win in a fight, etc... It's about taijutsu, and Naruto's style isn't that great.
Except that taking away bloodline limits would be like taking away muscle mass from the arms of a guy who just happened to have strong arms: They were born with it, so they can't use it? It's part of their body. The same applies for Naruto. It's just like sprouting extra arms for him.

[Oblivion]

Except that taking away bloodline limits would be like taking away muscle mass from the arms of a guy who just happened to have strong arms: They were born with it, so they can't use it? It's part of their body. The same applies for Naruto. It's just like sprouting extra arms for him.

no, the thing that is essential for taijutsu, is speed, agility and strenght, and none of that i taking away but everything else. and thus your example is WRONG.

[Jehuty]

no, the thing that is essential for taijutsu, is speed, agility and strenght, and none of that i taking away but everything else. your example is WRONG.
Good arguing. "YOUR EXAMPLE IS WRONG BECAUSE I SAY SO."

Taijutsu is also reflexes and technique. Good eyes augment that. Sasuke and Neji have good eyes.

[Oblivion]

Good arguing. "YOUR EXAMPLE IS WRONG BECAUSE I SAY SO."

sorry if you got me wrong^^ i mean: THUS your example is wrong. i will edit it.


Taijutsu is also reflexes and technique. Good eyes augment that. Sasuke and Neji have good eyes.

sasuke's eye can be put into the reflex area coz it can farsee how the oppenent will move. that's correct

but coz we (at least i) are trying to approach a pure clean taijutsu, much like a bruce lee style brawl taijutsu these things are to be left out.

[Jehuty]

sorry if you got me wrong^^ i mean: THUS your example is wrong. i will edit it.



sasuke's eye can be put into the reflex area coz it can farsee how the oppenent will move. that's correct

but coz we (at least i) are trying to approach a pure clean taijutsu, much like a bruce lee style brawl taijutsu these things are to be left out.
Well, then you're just stacking the odds specifically for Lee, as though it were "real world" fighting. But this is Naruto, and there's chakra, and even Lee uses it. The eyes are just a natural advantage. And Naruto's zero-tailed or fox chakra-drawn forms are more than formidable for all except three-tomoe Sasuke.

[mrcongojack]

Except that taking away bloodline limits would be like taking away muscle mass from the arms of a guy who just happened to have strong arms: They were born with it, so they can't use it? It's part of their body. The same applies for Naruto. It's just like sprouting extra arms for him.

No, if you take away muscle mass the shinobi would be lose the ability use an arm. Taking away kekkai genkai doesn't mean that they lose their eyesight entirely, they are just losing the added effects of their doujutsu, which does effect their abilities as a whole, but their taijutsu, which is what we are trying to measure, remains the same seeing as they still have their arms, legs, basic eyesight, etc... at their usual level. We are measuring their taijutsu, not their overall skills and abilities. To allow doujutsu or other forms of kekkai genkai (such as Haku's ice mirrors) to be used in a contest of pure taijutsu would be like letting Kurenai use her genjutsu in a taijutsu contest. Whether or not they were born with it does not make a difference, the Sharingan and Byakugan cannot be used in a fight because they are doujutsu.

[Jehuty]

No, if you take away muscle mass the shinobi would be lose the ability use an arm. Taking away kekkai genkai doesn't mean that they lose their eyesight entirely, they are just losing the added effects of their doujutsu, which does effect their abilities as a whole, but their taijutsu, which is what we are trying to measure, remains the same seeing as they still have their arms, legs, basic eyesight, etc... at their usual level. We are measuring their taijutsu, not their overall skills and abilities. To allow doujutsu or other forms of kekkai genkai (such as Haku's ice mirrors) to be used in a contest of pure taijutsu would be like letting Kurenai use her genjutsu in a taijutsu contest. Whether or not they were born with it does not make a difference, the Sharingan and Byakugan cannot be used in a fight because they are doujutsu.
Yeah, it does, because they're eye techniques, meaning that the person was born with them. It's part of their body, hence, taijutsu.

[mrcongojack]

Yeah, it does, because they're eye techniques, meaning that the person was born with them. It's part of their body, hence, taijutsu.
While they are a part of their body, using them would not constitute taijutsu. That's like saying ninjutsu techniques are taijutsu because they are created with hand seals and hands are apart of people's bodies. Taijutsu involves martial abilities, such as kicking, punching, blocking, etc...

To quote wikipedia (from the taijutsu article, not the Jutsu(Naruto) article):
Taijutsu (体術, Taijutsu?), literally meaning "body skill" or "body art", is a term for Japanese martial arts techniques that rely on a science of body movements. Historically, the word taijutsu was often used interchangeably with jujutsu (as well as many other terms) to refer to a range of grappling skills. Taijutsu, is a form of traditional Japanese unarmed combat common to a plethora of arts utilized throughout main land Japan's history.

Just because the eye is part of the body, doesn't mean eye techniques are taijutsu. Now if someone was born with a tail or 17 extra arms, their use would be taijutsu since they rely on body movements. Doujutsu, on the other hand, do not rely on the movement of the body but of the anatomy of the eye when the doujutsu is activated. This is more of a matter of the eye and the information it sends to the brain, which, while it is part of the brain, is not taijutsu. Different arts of taijutsu include the gentle fist, the Strong Fist of Lee/Gai, etc...

[Jehuty]

While they are a part of their body, using them would not constitute taijutsu. That's like saying ninjutsu techniques are taijutsu because they are created with hand seals and hands are apart of people's bodies. Taijutsu involves martial abilities, such as kicking, punching, blocking, etc...

To quote wikipedia (from the taijutsu article, not the Jutsu(Naruto) article):
Taijutsu (体術, Taijutsu?), literally meaning "body skill" or "body art", is a term for Japanese martial arts techniques that rely on a science of body movements. Historically, the word taijutsu was often used interchangeably with jujutsu (as well as many other terms) to refer to a range of grappling skills. Taijutsu, is a form of traditional Japanese unarmed combat common to a plethora of arts utilized throughout main land Japan's history.

Just because the eye is part of the body, doesn't mean eye techniques are taijutsu. Now if someone was born with a tail or 17 extra arms, their use would be taijutsu since they rely on body movements. Doujutsu, on the other hand, do not rely on the movement of the body but of the anatomy of the eye when the doujutsu is activated. This is more of a matter of the eye and the information it sends to the brain, which, while it is part of the brain, is not taijutsu. Different arts of taijutsu include the gentle fist, the Strong Fist of Lee/Gai, etc...
Taijutsu used in Naruto and Taijutsu used as an actual word is an important distinction.

The Sharingan and Byakugan grant higher clarity and insight. That makes their use in taijutsu extremely effective. It's a part of their anatomy, especially for the Hyuuga, so it's fair game to me. The eight gates fall outside your definition as well.

[The Noobslayer]

sorry if you got me wrong^^ i mean: THUS your example is wrong. i will edit it.



sasuke's eye can be put into the reflex area coz it can farsee how the oppenent will move. that's correct

but coz we (at least i) are trying to approach a pure clean taijutsu, much like a bruce lee style brawl taijutsu these things are to be left out.

Bruce lee's jaet kun do was not a brawl style... it empaszed predicting the opponents movements and their available options that they could do from given positions. That is one of the sharingans distinct abilities, to predict movement and attacks.

[Decorus]

Gentle Fist is a Taijutsu style that uses chakra so yes the Whirl, His 128 strikes and Wind Palm are all Taijutsu techniques they can not be seperated out as they are Gentle Fist Taijutsu techniques.

The Eight Gates is a part of Rock Lee's Taijutsu technique just like his Lotus and Morning Peacock.

Naruto's Taijutsu style is integrated with his use of Rasengan and Kage Bunshin along with eventually Kyuubi chakra and tailed forms.

[mrcongojack]

Taijutsu used in Naruto and Taijutsu used as an actual word is an important distinction.

The Sharingan and Byakugan grant higher clarity and insight. That makes their use in taijutsu extremely effective. It's a part of their anatomy, especially for the Hyuuga, so it's fair game to me. The eight gates fall outside your definition as well.

I used the "real world" definition of taijutsu for two reasons:
1. It was most likely this form of taijutsu that Kishimoto got the idea of taijutsu from.
2. If we go with the definition of taijutsu in Jutsu(Naruto), it's even more slanted towards kekkai genkai and taijutsu being seperate, seeing as they give each of them their own category.

So, because sharingan and byakugan makes someone's taijutsu better is a reason they should be included in a debate about taijutsu? Well, then so should the body flicker jutsu, and the rasengan, and just about every other jutsu. These jutsu do improve (and sometimes comprise entirely) the overall fighting ability of a shinobi, but that doesn't make them taijutsu.

Shinobi integrate other types of jutsu into their arsenals, but that doesn't make their taijutsu any better. It just makes their fighting ability better. We aren't arguing "who's the best fighter", we're arguing "who has the best taijutsu". While ninjutsu, genjutsu, and doujutsu make a ninja a better fighter, it doesn't make their taijutsu any better.

All of these types of jutsu comprise the ninja's arsenal of skills, sort of like how players of counterstrike have an array of skills comprised of accuracy with firearms, skill in throwing grenades, stealth, etc... Does a player's ability with stealth make him any more accurate? No. While being more stealthy will make the player better overall, it won't increase his accuracy. Some might say that a scope on say a sniper would be like using doujutsu, but it's much different. Scopes might make it possible to see things farther away, but they limit sight more than aid it, seeing as you are unable to see things outside of the scope and your movement is slightly hindered, whereas with doujutsu aides sight and does not hinder it in any way (save for the MS, but even that can be avoided by stealing someone else's eyes). Also, movement is not hindered in anyway. Besides, accuracy with a scope is almost entirely different than accuracy with a scopeless weapon. For one thing you use them in completely different situations (using a scope in a close up firefight is downright insane).

Long story short, while doujutsu, genjutsu, and ninjutsu make the shinobi more well-rounded as a fighter, they are not taijutsu moves and do not make taijutsu better, though they can cover up for deficiencies in taijutsu.


Bruce lee's jaet kun do was not a brawl style... it empaszed predicting the opponents movements and their available options that they could do from given positions. That is one of the sharingans distinct abilities, to predict movement and attacks.

Oblivion's argument wasn't so much about jeet kun do(which borrowed the idea that attacks come in only a few angles from Eskrima), it was about that this argument was more about physical taijutsu and not so much the fighter's ability as a whole. The example of Bruce Lee was most likely used as the name of someone with great martial ability. I think Chuck Norris would be a better example :p

[spinsane]

I dont think you can limit it to just taijutsu. I think supplemental Jutsu have to be considered. In the Anime and Manga they refer to Chouji and Kiba as strong Taijutsu users. In the sasuke retrieval arc, Shikamaru says something about Chouji packing the biggest taijutsu punch. Chouji and Kiba both use supplemental jutsu to use taijutsu, kiba has the partial-beast jutsu and chouji has the meat tank, both of which are Ninjutsu that allow you to perform special taijutsu moves.

As defined by Kishimoto, Taijutsu includes supplemental jutsus, such as Doujutsu, Partial-beast form, meat tank, double weight/size and Kage Bunshin. As long as the jutsu is used only in a supplemental capacity, I think it's okay to call it taijutsu. Hakkeshou is a Taijutsu move made possible by the Byakugan, so it's okay- no ninjutsu is connecting. Chidori (as portrayed in part 1) is a ninjutsu that connects using taijutsu, so it wouldn't fall into the taijutsu category. Rasengan is neither taijutsu nor ninjutsu so it wouldn't really fall into either (it's just a straight up chakra recomposition jutsu).

If that's the case, than Naruto's "Tajyuu, kage bunshin no jutsu ... U-zu-ma-ki Naruto nisen~[ren]dan" will beat anybody in this group, hand's down.
[hr]

Bruce lee's jaet kun do was not a brawl style... it empaszed predicting the opponents movements and their available options that they could do from given positions. That is one of the sharingans distinct abilities, to predict movement and attacks.


Considering Jaet kun do and the sharingan are both BS, I think comparing the too is highly appropriate...

[The Noobslayer]

Oblivion's argument wasn't so much about jeet kun do(which borrowed the idea that attacks come in only a few angles from Eskrima), it was about that this argument was more about physical taijutsu and not so much the fighter's ability as a whole. The example of Bruce Lee was most likely used as the name of someone with great martial ability. I think Chuck Norris would be a better example :p

Oblivion was saying that "clean taijutsu" does not include anticipation and prediction, as they do not make punches stronger and kicks harder. He then references Bruce Lee as an example of this "Clean taijutsu", when Bruce Lee created an entire martial art around anticipation and prediction.

And dont tell me about chuck. :D Bruce already beat him in Way the Dragon :D

LINKY!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbIwQMBeC2c



Considering Jaet kun do and the sharingan are both BS, I think comparing the too is highly appropriate...




As a MMA fighter I can tell you Jaet Kun do's philosophy is invaluable. If you can realize what an opponent can and will do before he does t, you are golden for a block/parry/counter/dodge. Opposite of BS.

EdiT: Oh and Jeet Kune do is the forefather to MMA. So its more than legitimate, its groundbreaking.

And since when is Chidori Nagashi taijutsu?

Ah I forgot it was ninjutsu. Good point.