The Yondaime Mega Convo

[Dragonzair]

As you've noticed, all the other Yondaime-related threads are gone. That's because we've merged all of them into this single topic. ^_^

This will create less clutter in the Toshokan. So post all your Yondy discussion,questions, etc. in this thread, and remember, make sure your post is Yondy related. And no spamming. ^_^

Thanks.

All unworkable links were removed.

[lee-nus]

hey folks...

i just gotta ask this, vuz my mind's bin playin trix on me for a while now... ^_^
what i wanna know is: as his name implies, sandaime was voted/elected/whatever hokage b4 yondaime, yet he is alive at the start of the manga/anime, but not yondaime... as we all know... and yet, he is the current hokage... (at the start, yes)

he was also the one to name yondaime his successor, right? soo... was yondaime ever hokage "for real"? or did he never get around to carry out this glorious duty b4 he died...? *^_^*

sorry im so messed up... i'd be glad if sum1 could straight this out for me! :smile-big

thanks heaps :amuse

Edit - Changed the title for better clarification. - GK

[Froggles]

Hello,

Thought i might take a stab at this. My understanding is that sandaime named yondaime as his sucessor and subsequently went into retirement. Yondaime was an official hokage...but also trained a genin team while being hokage?
Upon Yondaimes death sandaime came out of retirment to take his place as hokage again.

Thats just what my take was, if anyone can correct me i'd be glad to find out myself what the go is.

[Meijin no Kori]

Yondaime was a Hokage at one point. However, when he died, Sandaime came out of reitrement and became the Hokage once again.

[lee-nus]

Oh, so that's really how it was? That's kinda what I had in mind too... Is it in the manga or something...?

[Meijin no Kori]

Yes, I think so, but I forget where.

[walkie]

Yondaime was hokage when he sealed kyuubi and died after this....it seems like yondaime didnt named fifth hokage so sandaime became hokage again, that is what i think...yondaime's death was early an unexpected and may be there is no one else as capable of being hokage at that time....

[venicia777]

thats just it- after yondaime's unexpected and early death- too early to have even considered naming a successor- there was no one in konohakagure as capable and strong as sarutobi. also at this time the sanin were also not in konoha to be given the hokage duty.

[4thHokage]

i thought the fourth wasnt a hokage when he trained the genin team... i think by the time he was hokage kakashi was anbu. The fourth in Kakashi's Gaiden was not named the fourth, but carried the title Konoha's Yellow Flash... Just a nickname, like copy ninja Kakashi, gaara of the sand etc

[hanofsoul]

As I undersand it, it is possible for there to be more than one Hokage at the same time. Remember when the third was selected he was still quite young and he was selected by both the first and the second. It appeared to me that the first and second were hokages at the same time. Therefore i think that Yondaime and Sandaime may have been hokages at the same time. Although, that coming out of retirement theory seems sound.[br]Posted at: January 26, 2006, 12:33:15 PM_________________________________________________Also, you are right 4thHokage, yondaime wasn't hokage yet when he was training Kakashi.

[TeamNaruto]

Not sure if it is possible to have one Hokage at a time. I think the title is passed. Sarutobi was probably groomed to be the next Hokage. Since we don't know much of the first two hokage, I think Shodaime may have died in battle if I remember Tsunade saying something like he died before his dream was realized or something. Maybe even perhaps that the Shodaime passed it onto Nidaime. Still, it seems like Sarutobi was one of their prized pupils and taught him early on how to be a hokage. Also, I think Sandaime actually wanted to give the hokage title to Orochimaru since Oro was his prized pupil. Eventually, Oro's intentions become known to Sandaime and he passes the title over to Yondaime.

[kaze950]

idk....lol, kishimoto should really make a timeline of the Hokage's rule in the next databook

[lee-nus]

well... it seems im not the only one bothered by this issue, then... i thought i had missed sth vital here... ^_^

[ShounenSuki]

There have never been two active Hokage at the same time.

The Shodai became Hokage when he founded Konoha. (+/- 60 years ago)
The Nidaime became Hokage after the Shodai died (+/- 55 years ago)
The Sandaime became Hokage after the Nidaime died (+/- 50 years ago)
The Yondaime became Hokage after the Sandaime retired (+/- 15 years ago)
The Sandaime became Hokage again after the Yondaime died (+/- 15 years ago)
The Godaime became Hokage after the Sandaime died (+/- 3 years ago)

[TeamNaruto]

Sarutobi wins for longevity!!!

[The Boff]

oi, ShounenSuki! where did you get that information??

Its like not even almost correct(like my english). sandaime was given the title when he was like twelve or something and it was both the first and the second giving him the title.. they show that in the anime when sandaime is fighting on the roof... so as far as i know, they were three hokages at the same time.

[ikuroi]

lol, boffenjl is onto something anyway... its not like that as well... they werent 3 hokages at the same time, only that they all lived in the same time. Doesnt mean he gave him the officaly title of the hokage that day. But that doesnt mean he was given the title when one of them was dead.

[extensa30]

oi, ShounenSuki! where did you get that information??

Its like not even almost correct(like my english). sandaime was given the title when he was like twelve or something and it was both the first and the second giving him the title.. they show that in the anime when sandaime is fighting on the roof... so as far as i know, they were three hokages at the same time.


hey dude, never trust the anime, they do whatever they want, somentimes keeping nonsense with the manga!!

I HATE the fillers!!! I would prefer a holydays in the anime instead of those fucking peaces of shit!! :mad

[lee-nus]

There have never been two active Hokage at the same time.

The Shodai became Hokage when he founded Konoha. (+/- 60 years ago)
The Nidaime became Hokage after the Shodai died (+/- 55 years ago)
The Sandaime became Hokage after the Nidaime died (+/- 50 years ago)
The Yondaime became Hokage after the Sandaime retired (+/- 15 years ago)
The Sandaime became Hokage again after the Yondaime died (+/- 15 years ago)
The Godaime became Hokage after the Sandaime died (+/- 3 years ago)


uh, no... that can't be quite right, no... ^_^

[The Boff]

I agree extensa30 the fillers sux.... i didnt know that that perticular scene was a filler tough...?

anyhow i dont think shounensuki is correct, (stubborn idiot is what i am)

[akect]

OK guys, there's no need to be so dismissive of the anime. While it's true that there are certain scenes that are 'filler' even embedded in the normal storyline episodes, those scenes are mostly just extensions of the fight scenes, like Naruto v. Gaara and Naruto v. Sasuke. I have checked the manga, and the scene with the Shodai and Nidaime Hokage and young Sarutobi is taken directly from the manga. Unless there are horribly wrong translations in both the manga and anime (the dialogue is pretty much the exact same), the Shodai and Nidaime name Sarutobi as the Hokage, starting from 'tomorrow on.'

It's quite obvious that a Hokage can name a successor whenever he wants. Sandaime was named when he was young, and Orochimaru was almost named young also. The Shodai and Nidaime tell Sarutobi that he should search for and groom a successor, and it makes sense to do so as soon as possible (who knows when a Hokage will die?). Sarutobi hoped Orochimaru would be the one, but he had reservations (as stated) that prevented him from doing so. Yondaime was thus named later, after Jiraiya found and trained him. However, after Yondaime, there was no one strong enough in the village to name as a successor. Perhaps Yondaime was hoping Kakashi could eventually grow into the role, but that didn't pan out. That's why Sarutobi was forced back into the role after his pseudo-retirement, and Konoha still lacked a good candidate for Godaime.

We can also conclude that it's possible for two Hokage to 'rule' almost simultaneously, as it's obvious that both the Shodai and Nidaime were alive and in their prime at about the same time (being brothers). It's probably expected, to ensure a smooth transition. I think that's why Sandaime and Yondaime were probably ruling simultaneously. I think the situation with Tsunade and becoming Godaime Hokage is not the norm, and it's really quite lucky that Naruto and Jiraiya were there to convince her to come back.

[ShgnLW]

Dude, Sandaime didn't got the title as hokage at age 12. It sure looked weird when the shodaime and nidaime said against sandaime that he now was the 3rd hokage, but the fact remains that sandaime was an adult when he trained Jiraiya, Tsunade (Godaime) and Orochimaru... so at that point he couldn't be the 3rd... because I prosume that, whenever you are hokage that you aren't able to lead a 4-men team (oops, I mean a 3men-and-a-woman tema :D).

[akect]

Dude, Sandaime didn't got the title as hokage at age 12. It sure looked weird when the shodaime and nidaime said against sandaime that he now was the 3rd hokage, but the fact remains that sandaime was an adult when he trained Jiraiya, Tsunade (Godaime) and Orochimaru... so at that point he couldn't be the 3rd... because I prosume that, whenever you are hokage that you aren't able to lead a 4-men team (oops, I mean a 3men-and-a-woman tema :D).


Then who taught Sarutobi's three-man genin cell? From the flashback scenes, it's pretty heavily implied that it was the Nidaime Hokage or both Nidaime and Shodai. Unless there are some serious timeline screwups, both those men were obviously already Hokage and had established Konoha.

And having a Hokage lead a team of genin is probably the best way to choose a successor. That's how I assume Nidaime chose Sarutobi, and how Sandaime (wanted) to choose Orochimaru.

[ShounenSuki]

I got my information directly from the databooks and manga. They clearly state that:
1: The Shodai founded Konoha,
2: The Nidaime became Hokage after the Shodai died,
3: Both the Shodai and the Nidaime trained the Sandaime,
4: Both the Shodai and Nidaime ruled shortly and died young,

Also, the Sandaime probably was Hokage when he trained the Sannin (There are a few frames of the four of them looking at the Hokage monument. It has the Sandaime's face on it.).

By the way, the scene where the Shodai and Nidaime tell the Sandaime he'll be Hokage tomorrow isn't shown in the manga exactly as in the anime. In the manga, you don't see the three of them together. You only see three seperate frames. One of the Shodai, one of the Nidaime, and one of the Sandaime.

[akect]

By the way, the scene where the Shodai and Nidaime tell the Sandaime he'll be Hokage tomorrow isn't shown in the manga exactly as in the anime. In the manga, you don't see the three of them together. You only see three seperate frames. One of the Shodai, one of the Nidaime, and one of the Sandaime.


This is true. However, the anime almost always has to flesh out various scenes because the manga is limited. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the scene that's in the manga actually did play out more or less like it did in the anime. First of all, the way the frames are laid out in the manga (and the leaves in the background) heavily imply that the three are together, and that Sarutobi is receiving counsel from the two men at the same time (whether or not Nidaime had actually taken power as Hokage at this point is not clear from the manga itself).

Deleted some off-topic posts here. Carry on. - Gold Knight

[Gold Knight]

Going over the questions in this thread....

1. How did Yondaime succeed Sandaime? - lee-nus

My Answer: Sandaime went into retirement after he named Yondaime his successor, and came out of it when Yondaime died.

For the longest time, Sandaime expected to finally feel like he could be comfortable in naming his student, Orochimaru, the next Hokage. Orochimaru was a shinobi with amazing potential and with a hunger for knowledge of all things related to the skills of shinobi, and that probably was what was attractive about him to Sandaime - the "Professor."

But Oro could care less about the welfare of Konohagakure, and Sandaime knew that. So, Sandaime wanted to wait until Oro might change his attitude, and that's why he stayed out of retirement so long.

But in the end, Sandaime decided that the latest prodigy, Yondaime, who DID love his village, had too much potential to be ignored.

2. Did Yondaime get to be Hokage at all? - lee-nus

My Answer: Yes, but not for long at all.

Since Kakashi became a Jounin when Yondaime was still a Jounin himself, around ( emphasis: around ) 10 years ago... it was probably more like 12-13 years ago... before Naruto fought Sasuke, I'm guessing Sandaime retired following the conclusion of the Third Secret World War. The war must have ended that same year, maybe even the same month, thanks to the heroics (and sacrifices) of Team Yondaime at the Battle of Kanabi Bridge.

So let's assume that was Yondaime's last mission as a Jounin. Sandaime went into retirement, deciding that Orochimaru was unsuitable, and named Yondaime his successor. That same year Orochimaru must have gotten caught performing his gruesome experiments and was banished from the village.

Then later that very same year, the Kyuubi attacked Konohagakure, and Yondaime died in defending the village, though he managed to seal the Nine-Tails into the newborn body of Naruto. It's very plausible that it was the same year, since the Third Secret World War must have ended a short time before Naruto was born.

So my answer is Yondaime didn't last very long at all as a Hokage, maybe three to five months! Which is ironic, considering he was one of the most powerful shinobi that village has ever seen. Ah, well, that's life.

3. Was Sandaime naming Yondaime his successor in the manga or something...? - lee-nus

My Answer: Yeah. Morino Ibiki (the scar-faced big guy) related the story of how Sandaime chose Yondaime as his successor instead of Orochimaru in Chapter 116.

He also said Orochimaru left that same year. So, Orochimaru probably got caught working on his corpses sometime that year as well and deflected from Konohagakure for that reason. Note that Sandaime (already aged at the time) was the man who found him, and that he was dressed in shinobi attire, not Hokage clothes. That most likely means that it occured after he had already gone into retirement, but he probably suspected it was Orochimaru behind the murders, so he wanted to come along.

I'm also wondering if that's why Sandaime happens to have that memory of an angry-looking Yondaime in his head ... see panel two, page 19, chapter 122 to see what I mean ... did Yondaime make that angry face when he learned that Sandaime had let Orochimaru get out of Konohagakure?

4. Was Yondaime already the Hokage when he was training Kakashi or not? - 4thHokage

My Answer: No. Yondaime wouldn't have been sent to the battle fronts if he was the leader of the Konohagakure. Sure, it was a time of chaos, but the Hokages in Konohagakure are especially known for their desire to protect their people and home. Sandaime would have been Konohagakure's last stand. Also, yes, Yondaime was known as the 'Yellow Flash' at the time, just a nickname, instead of being called Yondaime (Fourth Hokage) at all. That's because he wasn't yet Hokage.

5. Is it possible for there to be more than one Hokage at a time? - hanofsoul

My Answer: Well, just my opinion (since there's no confirmation on the subject at all), but I think Shodai and Nidaime were both Hokages at the same time, but that was an unusual case, since they were both brothers. If they were able to work together well, then why not. Maybe that was the reason Konohagakure became so powerful.

But I also think that since then, it's been seen as more traditional to pass the Hokage title on from person to person, especially the most powerful and capable shinobi in town.

Edit: My opinion has been changed by information from the Databook I that states that Shodai died before Nidaime came into power. Thanks to ShounenSuki. So no, they didn't rule together.

6. Did Tsunade say that Shodai died before his dream was realized? - TeamNaruto

My Answer: No. Shodai had already realized his dream of Konoha becoming a powerful and peaceful village. I think you were thinking of Tsunade's husband, Dan, who died before he could become Hokage. ;)

EDIT: Well, TeamNaruto proved me wrong. See his post below. :amuse

7. Is this timeline of Hokages correct?



There have never been two active Hokage at the same time.

The Shodai became Hokage when he founded Konoha. (+/- 60 years ago)
The Nidaime became Hokage after the Shodai died (+/- 55 years ago)
The Sandaime became Hokage after the Nidaime died (+/- 50 years ago)
The Yondaime became Hokage after the Sandaime retired (+/- 15 years ago)
The Sandaime became Hokage again after the Yondaime died (+/- 15 years ago)
The Godaime became Hokage after the Sandaime died (+/- 3 years ago)


I think we're missing some crucial information for us to determine if that timeline is true or not. I don't know if the Databooks have revealed any information to prove anything, buuuuuut...

Here's what we need to know:


When did Shodai found Konohagakure?

It could be anywhere from 90 to 60 years ago.

Judging by Shodai's appearance in Sandaime's childhood memories, he looked to have been at least 30 to 40 years old.

Sandaime was 68 years old at the time of his death, so if you believe that Shodai founded Konohagakure around the time Sandaime was born, then it was 70 years ago at least, and Shodai (and Nidaime?) were likely 20. Still, that might not have been the case.

But I happen to think so, but it's just a guess.

Edit: ShounenSuki said in a later post here, according to the Hero Book, it was around 60 years ago that Shodai founded Konohagakure. So I'll go with that.

Just something fun I found out... while looking up Sandaime's age, I noticed that he was the same age as the Elders of Konohagakure, Mitokado Homura and Utantane Koharu - you know, the old man and old woman on the council.

That led me to wonder if they were on the same team together, trained by Shodai and Nidaime, and sure enough - on page 15 of chapter 122, that's them with kid Sarutobi! The kid with glasses, that's GOTTA be Homura! Okay, sorry. It just amused me.


Did Shodai and Nidaime rule together?

I believe Shodai founded Konohagakure, after a fierce battle with a rival (the other statue at the The Valley of the End - whoever that is - fine, maybe it's the Akatsuki leader. ;) ) Anyway, later on, Shodai asked Nidaime to help him build Konohagakure. I do think they became co-leaders after a while.

Edit: And according to the Translations from Databooks / Herobook, looks like Shodai died before passing the mantle on to Nidaime. See latter post by ShounenSuki.


Did Shodai and Nidaime die or retire together?

Sandaime's quote: "I'm the man who inherited the will of the Leaf, the will of the Shodaime-sama and Nidaime-sama." (not just Nidaime-sama) seem to support this. However...

There's no indication anywhere in the manga that the deaths of Shodai and Nidaime were the reason that Sandaime became Hokage. Nidaime said in chapter 123, "Listen monkey, protect those who love the village and believe in you, and you must raise one who you can entrust to carry on the next generation. From tomorrow on, you are the Hokage!"

Now, does THAT sound like Nidaime was dying at the moment? Nope! So, I think Nidaime retired. Perhaps he was never happy with being Hokage and wanted to travel the world. But I have no idea if Shodai went with him, or was already dead by then or not. Though...


I got my information directly from the databooks and manga. They clearly state that:
1: The Shodai founded Konoha,
2: The Nidaime became Hokage after the Shodai died,
3: Both the Shodai and the Nidaime trained the Sandaime,
4: Both the Shodai and Nidaime ruled shortly and died young,

What pages of the Databook or the manga state that Nidaime became Hokage after Shodai died, ShounenSuki?

Edit: And I got my answer. See latter post. But, looks like Shodai died before Nidaime became Hokage. Now the question is, when did Nidaime become Hokage?

How old was Sandaime when he became Hokage?

Was he really as young as 12 years old when he became the Hokage? Sure, we saw a panel of kid Sarutobi wonderingly absorbing the words of Shodai on page 14 of chapter 123, but was he really as young as that when Nidaime bestowed the title of Hokage on him? I think Nidaime probably said these words to him much later on.

We also know that it he trained Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru (all 52 years old now at least so Sandaime must've been around 18-24 years old at the time ... EDIT: actually since Sandaime was 68 at the time of his death and the Sannin were 50 years old, he was 18 years older than them, so he must have been closing on to his thirties - anyway, I think the Sannin became jounin at a very young age, like Kakashi)...

...but DO we know he had already inherited the will of the Shodai and Nidaime at that time? After all, he never wore his Hokage hat in the scenes we've seen of him training these kids!

EDIT: And akect proved that he was indeed Hokage at the time, judging by Chapter 122, page 7, so disregard my question here.

If you want to know what I think....

He became Hokage almost right after Sandaime finished training Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru.

Notice that on page 16 of chapter 122, Kishimoto did a panel of "Team Sarutobi" and then following that panel, we see Sarutobi wearing the Hokage hat ( what is that called, anyway? XD ).

Also, Orochimaru knew Sandaime by his "real name," when his real name was never used by anybody else!

Edit: Never mind. When I realized Sandaime was probably more into his thirties, my point here became worthless.

Anyway, I think Sandaime became Hokage at approximately the same age that Yondaime did (though we don't even know how old he was when he accepted the mantle.) But possibly Yondaime and Sandaime were both at least 20 years old when they became Hokage.

And that's all the questions you have to take in consideration before you can really build an accurate timeline, I think. Based on my opinions:

(Post-Timejump)

The Shodai became Hokage when he founded Konoha. ( 70 years ago )
The Nidaime became co-Hokages with Shodai ( 70-65 years ago )
The Sandaime became Hokage after the Nidaime retired ( 60 years ago)
The Third Secret World War took place ( 15 years ago )
The Yondaime became Hokage after the Sandaime retired (14.5 years ago)
The Sandaime became Hokage again after the Yondaime died ( 14 years ago)
The Godaime became Hokage after the Sandaime died ( 2.5 years ago)

8. Should we trust the anime when discussing the manga? - akect

No, No, NO. I'm sorry, but the fillers in the anime are somebody else's writing, NOT Kishimoto's. So no, don't judge by the anime whenever you talk about the manga.

9. Is this thread going off-topic? - somebody asked here

It was starting to get a little off-topic there with the drunk rants, but I've deleted them. :amuse

Tangents are all right as long as they relate to the original question, though. :thumbs

[ShounenSuki]

It was stated in the first databook that the Nidaime became Hokage after the Shodai's death

初代亡き後、その遺志を継いで゛火影゛よ呼ばれたのが、初代の実弟である二代目であった。
"After the Shodai's death, [he] inherited [the Shodai's] dying wish and was called "Hokage". This is the Shodai's younger brother, the Nidaime."

Also, it is stated many, many times that the Shodai founded Konoha alone and around 60 years ago.

Also, about when the Yondaime became Hokage. The Kakashi Gaiden happened whenKakashi was 13. About a year before the Kyuubi attack.

[Gold Knight]

It was stated in the first databook that the Nidaime became Hokage after the Shodai's death

初代亡き後、その遺志を継いで゛火影゛よ呼ばれたのが、初代の実弟である二代目であった。
"After the Shodai's death, [he] inherited [the Shodai's] dying wish and was called "Hokage". This is the Shodai's younger brother, the Nidaime."

I see - well, if that's what it said, by golly, you must be right.


Also, it is stated many, many times that the Shodai founded Konoha alone and around 60 years ago.

I knew that Shodai founded Konoha alone, but didn't know about the "around 60 years ago" thing. Did Shodai's entry in Databook 1 mention that?


Also, about when the Yondaime became Hokage. The Kakashi Gaiden happened whenKakashi was 13. About a year before the Kyuubi attack.

How do you know what Kakashi's age was in the year that the Kyuubi attacked?

[TeamNaruto]

6. Did Tsunade say that Shodai died before his dream was realized? - TeamNaruto

My Answer: No. Shodai had already realized his dream of Konoha becoming a powerful and peaceful village. I think you were thinking of Tsunade's husband, Dan, who died before he could become Hokage.



Chapter 158 of the manga, Tsunade says that both the 4th and her grandfater died in the middle of their dreams which is bringing peace to their home. So most likely Shodaime was at war when he died. Even when Orochimaru used Edo Tensei, the shodaime said no matter how much the world changes there is always fighting. The dream is not to make Konoha powerful, but to make it peaceful.

Edit: By the way, that is when Jiraiya and Naruto were looking for Tsunade and found her at the bar. They were talking about her being hokage and a reason to why she declined. Err...edited again, Tsunade was talking about the Shodaime and Nidaime, not the fourth that were focusing too much on bringing peace to Konoha.

[Gold Knight]

Wow TeamNaruto - well, that just goes to show that no matter how much I reread the Naruto series, there's always something I didn't catch.

But now that I think about it, I suppose it makes sense - Shodai and Nidaime died before Konohagakure must have become peaceful - under Sandaime's rule, while Shodai and Nidaime were still Hokages, they probably had to deal with a "Secret World War" too.

Even during Sandaime's rule, there was still a lot of fighting going on - I bet Sandaime had to deal with the second "Secret World War."

Well, I learned something today :amuse


EDIT: And I've just scratched out my answer in my long post. Good job proving me wrong. :p

[ShounenSuki]

I see - well, if that's what it said, by golly, you must be right.

I knew that Shodai founded Konoha alone, but didn't know about the "around 60 years ago" thing. Did Shodai's entry in Databook 1 mention that?

How do you know what Kakashi's age was in the year that the Kyuubi attacked?

About the 60 years. It is stated in the databooks. To quote the Hero book (The only data book to directly pay attention to the founding of Konoha)
木ノ葉の興りは、今を遡ること約六十年…
一人の優れた忍が新たな里の創設を志したことに起因する。その忍こそ里の頂点に立つ初代火影。初代亡き後、弟である二代目がその遺志を継ぎ、里の基盤作りに尽力した。
Konoha arose approximately 60 years ago from the present...
It arose because of the aspirations of one superiour shinobi to establish a new village. This shinobi, who certainly stands at the top of the village, is the Shodai Hokage. After the Shodai's death, his little brother, the Nidaime, inherited his dying wish, endevouring in making the foundations of the village.

About Kakashi's age during the Gaiden/Kyuubi attack.
This is easy. Naruto was a newly-born infant during the attack. Naruto is now 15 (Hero book), Kakashi is now 29 (Hero book), so Kakashi had to be 29-15=14 years during the Kyuubi attack.

During the Kakashi Gaiden, Kakashi has to be around 13. This is because both Rin and Obito are this age (2nd Databook) and because it has to be before the Kyuubi attack, while still being '10-odd years ago'

[akect]

How old was Sandaime when he became Hokage?

Was he really as young as 12 years old when he became the Hokage? Sure, we saw a panel of kid Sarutobi wonderingly absorbing the words of Shodai on page 14 of chapter 123, but was he really as young as that when Nidaime bestowed the title of Hokage on him? I think Nidaime probably said these words to him much later on.


I disagree with the viewpoint that the three panel sequence in manga chapter 123 page 14 didn't happen at the same time, but I acknowledge it's open to interpretation. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the way that the three faces are framed (and the leaves that are floating in the background), make me believe that this scene played out in the manga the same way that it did in the anime. Namely, the young Sarutobi was with both the Shodai and Nidaime in a flashback sequence.

While it appears a little ethereal in both the manga and anime, I don't think it's a stretch that those two statements from the Shodai and Nidaime to Sarutobi happened at approximately the same time. It wouldn't make sense for Sarutobi to be picturing himself when he was young for the Shodai's statement but then jumping years into the future for the Nidaime's.

Another point is that even though the boy on that page looks quite small and young, remember that Sarutobi is really very short, even when he becomes an adult. It could entirely be possible that he's really a lot older than he looks like in that picture.




We also know that it he trained Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru (all 52 years old now at least so Sandaime must've been 18-24 years old at the time - I think the Sannin became jounin at a very young age, like Kakashi)...

...but DO we know he had already inherited the will of the Shodai and Nidaime at that time? After all, he never wore his Hokage hat in the scenes we've seen of him training these kids!

If you want to know what I think....

He became Hokage almost right after Sandaime finished training Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru.

Notice that on page 16 of chapter 122, Kishimoto did a panel of "Team Sarutobi" and then following that panel, we see Sarutobi wearing the Hokage hat ( what is that called, anyway? XD ).

Also, Orochimaru knew Sandaime by his "real name," when his real name was never used by anybody else!

Anyway, I think Sandaime became Hokage at approximately the same age that Yondaime did (though we don't even know how old he was when he accepted the mantle.) But possibly Yondaime and Sandaime were both at least 20 years old when they became Hokage.



I don't think this is correct: refer to chapter 122 page 7. Here we clearly see that Sarutobi is looking at the Hokage Monument with his three young genin, and his face is already on the cliff. He probably doesn't wear the hat during training because it's for ceremonial purposes. And the reason why Orochimaru calls Sandaime "Sarutobi" is because that's how the sensei - genin relationship works. Since the Sannin all learned from Sarutobi, he will always be Sarutobi-sensei to them. When talking about him to other people, however, they call him Sandaime.



8. Should we trust the anime when discussing the manga? - akect

No, No, NO. I'm sorry, but the fillers in the anime are somebody else's writing, NOT Kishimoto's. So no, don't judge by the anime whenever you talk about the manga.



Well, I don't know if you misunderstood my point, but I'm not saying that anime fillers can be used as 'canon' evidence or anything like that at all. I was specifically saying that the flashback scene where Sarutobi is given the mantle of Hokage by Nidaime is in both the anime and manga. Period. I then went on to say that the two are really quite close in presentation, and that I personally think that the minor license in the anime (that the three people are actually in the same flashback scene) is very logical given the presentation in the manga (see first point above). That's why I say, don't dismiss the anime so entirely, because people were originally stating that the anime scene was not even in the manga AT ALL. It's all open to interpretation though, so I'm just explaining my opinion.

Another small point that I hope doesn't get labelled off-topic, because it was something I was trying to convey in one of my earlier posts, is the nature of 'anime filler.' Yes, the original manga author Kishimoto-sensei has no creative input in the anime. Yes, this means that many scenes from the anime don't correspond to the original author's worldview and are irrelevant when discussing manga plotpoints. However, there is a difference between outright filler episodes (the recent year-long run in the anime) and filler scenes that appear embedded within actual storyline episodes. The animators have to take creative license often in order to flesh out scenes that are too brief or not well explicated in the manga. In my opinion, most of these 'filler' scenes are just making various fight sequences longer, which really has no bearing on plot debates (like this one).

That was my point in saying 'don't dismiss the anime.' In certain scenes like the Shodai/Nidaime/Sarutobi flashback, there is technically filler in that the manga does not explicitly show the three together simultaneously. However, to dismiss this as anime filler, I think, is too harsh, since it's mostly a question of angling and 'camera' shot (even though it's anime). That's why I have no problem referring to the anime in certain instances in order to support a view that I have from the manga.

The inverse is also true - the final clash between Naruto and Sasuke in the Valley of the End has certain aspects that appear more evident in the manga than the anime. Sasuke's Sharingan being able to predict the movement of Naruto with excess Kyuubi chakra is better explained in the manga. Naruto's intent in attacking Sasuke's hitai-ate during the last Rasengan-Chidori clash is more evident, etc. And to forestall the counterargument, yes, the way the fight proceeds in the anime is different than in the manga. However, the changes are hardly going to matter in the grand scheme of the universe in Naruto. It's still 'filler sequences,' but I hardly expect anyone to use them in debating manga plotpoints.

[Gold Knight]

About the 60 years. It is stated in the databooks. To quote the Hero book (The only data book to directly pay attention to the founding of Konoha)
木ノ葉の興りは、今を遡ること約六十年…
一人の優れた忍が新たな里の創設を志したことに起因する。その忍こそ里の頂点に立つ初代火影。初代亡き後、弟である二代目がその遺志を継ぎ、里の基盤作りに尽力した。
Konoha arose approximately 60 years ago from the present...
It arose because of the aspirations of one superiour shinobi to establish a new village. This shinobi, who certainly stands at the top of the village, is the Shodai Hokage. After the Shodai's death, his little brother, the Nidaime, inherited his dying wish, endevouring in making the foundations of the village.


Sounds like you've been well-informed - OR do you read Japanese? In any case, thanks for the information, I stand corrected. By the way, if you can help with further translations from the Databooks, could you please contribute them at this subforum? (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?board=65.0) The scanlators we have there typesetting the pages would love any additional help. Thanks. If you CAN read Japanese and can translate them, I would be happy to make a subforum for anything you might wish to contribute.


About Kakashi's age during the Gaiden/Kyuubi attack.
This is easy. Naruto was a newly-born infant during the attack. Naruto is now 15 (Hero book), Kakashi is now 29 (Hero book), so Kakashi had to be 29-15=14 years during the Kyuubi attack.

During the Kakashi Gaiden, Kakashi has to be around 13. This is because both Rin and Obito are this age (2nd Databook) and because it has to be before the Kyuubi attack, while still being '10-odd years ago'

So it's more like 16 years ago - okay, I'll go for that. And I'm glad the Hero Book cleared up Naruto being 15 years old. I had no translations whatsoever of the Hero Book.



I disagree with the viewpoint that the three panel sequence in manga chapter 123 page 14 didn't happen at the same time, but I acknowledge it's open to interpretation. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the way that the three faces are framed (and the leaves that are floating in the background), make me believe that this scene played out in the manga the same way that it did in the anime. Namely, the young Sarutobi was with both the Shodai and Nidaime in a flashback sequence.

While it appears a little ethereal in both the manga and anime, I don't think it's a stretch that those two statements from the Shodai and Nidaime to Sarutobi happened at approximately the same time. It wouldn't make sense for Sarutobi to be picturing himself when he was young for the Shodai's statement but then jumping years into the future for the Nidaime's.

All the same, memories can be funny. And Kishimoto was going for dramatic impact there. Of course it would be more dramatic if Shodai and Nidaime were both telling Sandaime at the same time. However if it was at the same time that they told Sandaime, then that would disprove ShounenSuki's Databook translation here:



It was stated in the first databook that the Nidaime became Hokage after the Shodai's death

初代亡き後、その遺志を継いで゛火影゛よ呼ばれたのが、初代の実弟である二代目であった。
"After the Shodai's death, [he] inherited [the Shodai's] dying wish and was called "Hokage". This is the Shodai's younger brother, the Nidaime."

If Nidaime was about to pass on the mantle to Sandaime, then that would mean Shodai would have been dead at that time.


Another point is that even though the boy on that page looks quite small and young, remember that Sarutobi is really very short, even when he becomes an adult. It could entirely be possible that he's really a lot older than he looks like in that picture.

Still, Sarutobi was clearly older in the flashback to when he was training Jiraiya, Oro, and Tsunade. Though I think my math was off in another case. Sandaime's age: 68 - Sannin's age: 50 = 18... so he was 18 years older than Jiraiya, Oro, and Tsunade. So I'll grant now that Sarutobi must have already been Hokage when he trained them, even without your next point...


I don't think this is correct: refer to chapter 122 page 7. Here we clearly see that Sarutobi is looking at the Hokage Monument with his three young genin, and his face is already on the cliff. He probably doesn't wear the hat during training because it's for ceremonial purposes.

I see it, and thanks for pointing that out. So we know Sandaime was Hokage when he trained them, he was 18 years older than them. Jiraiya, Oro, and Tsunade look seven to eight years old in that panel, so Sandaime must have been closing on his 30s.

Still, that still doesn't tell us how old Sandaime was when he became Hokage.


And the reason why Orochimaru calls Sandaime "Sarutobi" is because that's how the sensei - genin relationship works. Since the Sannin all learned from Sarutobi, he will always be Sarutobi-sensei to them. When talking about him to other people, however, they call him Sandaime.

Yeah, true.


Well, I don't know if you misunderstood my point, but I'm not saying that anime fillers can be used as 'canon' evidence or anything like that at all. I was specifically saying that the flashback scene where Sarutobi is given the mantle of Hokage by Nidaime is in both the anime and manga. Period. I then went on to say that the two are really quite close in presentation, and that I personally think that the minor license in the anime (that the three people are actually in the same flashback scene) is very logical given the presentation in the manga (see first point above). That's why I say, don't dismiss the anime so entirely, because people were originally stating that the anime scene was not even in the manga AT ALL. It's all open to interpretation though, so I'm just explaining my opinion.

Another small point that I hope doesn't get labelled off-topic, because it was something I was trying to convey in one of my earlier posts, is the nature of 'anime filler.' Yes, the original manga author Kishimoto-sensei has no creative input in the anime. Yes, this means that many scenes from the anime don't correspond to the original author's worldview and are irrelevant when discussing manga plotpoints. However, there is a difference between outright filler episodes (the recent year-long run in the anime) and filler scenes that appear embedded within actual storyline episodes. The animators have to take creative license often in order to flesh out scenes that are too brief or not well explicated in the manga. In my opinion, most of these 'filler' scenes are just making various fight sequences longer, which really has no bearing on plot debates (like this one).

That was my point in saying 'don't dismiss the anime.' In certain scenes like the Shodai/Nidaime/Sarutobi flashback, there is technically filler in that the manga does not explicitly show the three together simultaneously. However, to dismiss this as anime filler, I think, is too harsh, since it's mostly a question of angling and 'camera' shot (even though it's anime). That's why I have no problem referring to the anime in certain instances in order to support a view that I have from the manga.

What the anime producers have to be concerned about is creating animation sequences, which sometimes will differ from what Kishimoto had in mind as far as flashbacks.

Whenever flashbacks are concerned in the anime, I still believe that it is dangerous to presume anything about Kishimoto's plans in the manga judging by that.

Though I understand your standing, but you'll have to forgive me if I don't accept your comparisons to the anime as any kind of evidence.


The inverse is also true - the final clash between Naruto and Sasuke in the Valley of the End has certain aspects that appear more evident in the manga than the anime. Sasuke's Sharingan being able to predict the movement of Naruto with excess Kyuubi chakra is better explained in the manga. Naruto's intent in attacking Sasuke's hitai-ate during the last Rasengan-Chidori clash is more evident, etc. And to forestall the counterargument, yes, the way the fight proceeds in the anime is different than in the manga. However, the changes are hardly going to matter in the grand scheme of the universe in Naruto. It's still 'filler sequences,' but I hardly expect anyone to use them in debating manga plotpoints.


I haven't gotten that far in the anime, but I agree there anyway ;)

Anyway, to reprise my main questions regarding the timeline:

1. When did Shodai found Konohagakure? Answer we have: Herobook - Approximately 60 years ago. from present...

Which means Sandaime had already been born...

2. Did Shodai and Nidaime rule together? Answer we have: First databook, Shodai died before Nidaime became Hokage
3. Did Shodai and Nidaime die or retire together? Answer we have: First databook, Shodai died before Nidaime became Hokage

When did Shodai die / Nidaime become Hokage?

4. How old was Sandaime when he became Hokage? Still debating...

The timeline we have based on that information:

(Post timejump )
The Shodai became Hokage when he founded Konoha. ( 60+ years ago )
The Nidaime became Hokage after Shodai died ( ??? )
The Sandaime became Hokage after the Nidaime retired ( ??? )
The Third Secret World War took place ( 16 years ago )
The Yondaime became Hokage after the Sandaime retired (15.5 years ago)
The Sandaime became Hokage again after the Yondaime died ( 15 years ago)
The Godaime became Hokage after the Sandaime died ( 2.5 years ago)

[Meijin no Kori]

Sounds like you've been well-informed - OR do you read Japanese? In any case, thanks for the information, I stand corrected. By the way, if you can help with further translations from the Databooks, could you please contribute them at this subforum? (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?board=65.0) The scanlators we have there typesetting the pages would love any additional help. Thanks. If you CAN read Japanese and can translate them, I would be happy to make a subforum for anything you might wish to contribute.
From knowing ShounenSuki on NF, I can confirm that she knows Japanese.

[Gold Knight]

Nice to know we have another person here who can divulge information from the Databooks and Herobook at will, then.

ShounenSuki, hopefully you'll forgive us non-Japanese-reading fans for not knowing all the facts. :amuse

[pjoto]

We all know he did the sealing technique on Naruto, and by that gave his soul to the Death God.
But what if he somehow managed to seal up the Kyubii inside Naruto, and also sealed himself into Naruto.

The 3rd said that when you do the sealing technique, you end up in another dimension, in an endless battle with the one you sealed.
So, since the Kyubii is inside Naruto, maby the 4th is somewhere inside of him too? If he takes the secound right door instead of the first, which leads to Kyubii.. You know, when he's walking down the hallway looking for chakra..

Also, the 4th was seen as a genious with a great sence for jutsus.. Maby he made his own version of the sealing technique, making it possible for him to live within Naruto..?

Maby as a small percentage of Narutos sub-conciounsness.. Maby he helps Naruto understanding techniques faster, and making him capable of copying the 4ths original techniques..
Like, he copied the Rasengan in 3 weeks, using only his own chakra (the blue type). I seriously believe there is something more behind this. Even Sakura and Tsunade who both have just about perfect controll of their chakra can't even do this jutsu..

Maby during the past years he's been training with Jiraya, he's learned a few new jutsus the Yellow Flash left behind. I mean, The 4th obviously teached Jiraya the Rasengan, so maby he tried to learn him the Yellow Flash Twiching Teleporting Thingy Technique too? So Jiraya learned the basics and how to do it, he just couldn't do it. But instead learn it to Naruto which obviously easilly learn new techniques, maby especially those of The 4th.

I don't know anything for sure, of course. But I sincerly believe the 4th is somewhere inside of Naruto.
Some exapmles:

The 4th is Narutos father, then they share the same blood and genes.
The 4th is sealed inside of Naruto, well, then they can cooperate.
The 4th hid the secret techniques he learned inside of the Kyubii seal with the Kyubii, (the seal gradually gives Naruto more and more power from the Kyubii as time passes and his body can handle it, so maby the seal also gives out techniques into Narutos sub-conciounsness as he grows older and gets more controll and might be more compattible in order to make the jutsus. If you understand?
Or maby he knew them all the moment he got the seal, but needs help to re-learn them and remember them.. So when Jiraya shows him how to do it, he picks them up from his sub-consiounsness and learns them really fast. Understand?)
The 4th might have been his older brother, and they were both the sons of some great technique ninja dude.
The 4th is the father of Jiraya and Naruto, and they are brothers. So Naruto's been hanging out with his brother all allong without knowing it.
I mean, they both like girls. Naruto got the Sexy no Jutsu, and tried spying on Sakura in the bathroom. And Jiraya.. well.. you know.. And yes, of course, I know most boys like girls, and there isn't anything special there.. But in the Naruto series, we haven't really seen anyone focus on girls as much as Jiraya and Naruto. If this is true, I'm guessing the 4th was a real perv.. :p

I don't know anything for sure, but God damn, they look so alike, and they both smile allot and the 4th seemed to be loved by everyone. And there is so much small hints laying around... And also, of course, Naruto ended up on Kakashis team.

Uchia Sasuke, an Uchia, like Obito, Kakashis friend. Sharingan, like Kakashi.
Uzumaki Naruto, the son/brother/sealed up with the 4th, Kakashis mentor.
Sakura, well, they had to be 3..

As previously mentioned, it's pure speculation and hoping, because something like that would rock ! :D

_______________________
What do you guys think?

[KRNseraphim]

umm...everything seems to make sense except that "The 4th is the father of Jiraya and Naruto, and they are brothers. So Naruto's been hanging out with his brother all along without knowing it." How does that work? Yondaime was Jiraya's student like you said earlier how on earth could Yondaime be the father of Jiraya? that confused the hell out of me Jiraya was part of the Legendary Sannin and they're all in their 50's and Yondaime was probably mid 20's to early 30's when kyuubi came so i'm confused but the rest is pretty good =)

Also for Yondaime sealed in Naruto thats something i was wondering, like why wasnt kyuubi's soul obliterated and intertwined in Hate inside Shinikami like how Sandaime and orochimarus arms were (man wouldnt that suck? being sealed away in shinikamis stomach forever with nothing but a pair of arms you can beat on? man atleast take a foot too so you could crush its toes or something but what are you gonna do to arms? beat one with the other? that would be borring as hell) and like how could he seal kyuubi inside someone else without that other person dying iono i'm sure kishimoto will explain it sometime (hopefully soon)

[MadTact]

The 4th can't be the father of Jiraya. He trained the 4th and hes also older than him.

[Leen]

I really cannot imagine my father to be 30 years younger than me. I will not like the idea of trapped in a world with a pair of arms from my former favourite student. Yuck, that will be terrible.

I dont think that Yondaime is sealed inside Naruto but this thread makes me think too. If a person seals something, then both the object and subject go to a new dimension. That can explain the Yondy in Naruto body since that new dimension might just be Naruto's soul itself. If not, where will Yondy end up? Too much speculation, too little information. We can only guess right now. :D

[lexiefaye]

We've seen inside Naruto and behind the sealed gate (which would be the only logical place for Yondaime to also be stored using the same technique) and Yondaime isn't there. I am an advocate of the idea that Naruto is somehow related to the 4th but until there is anything proving this, tread lightly. Abilities can be used and taught outside of clan lines and tutoring as seen by Kakashi's use of Sharingan, Neji teaching himself Kaiten, Lee learning to open gates from Gai, Tsunade teaching Sakura her super strength and healing abilities, etc ....

[tristian]

very interesting idea's, there has certainly been alot of hints to this affect throughout.

one quick thought tho, as both souls would get locked together in the new dimension to fight forever wouldn't the Kyubii just kill the 4th and then sit there waiting for Naruto to either Absorb enough of him to gain some sort of influence over Naruto or for the seal to fail and be released once more upon the world. Would explain why we haven't seen the 4th inside Naruto tho, although its possible that the 4th is hiding in a second doorway/room waiting for Naruto to be old/strong enough so that the 4th can influence him (if he isn't already).

too many possibilities..

[GordoIrado]

But lexiefaye, the Rasengan is a special case. The ONLY (and I mean ONLY) people who know it are Jiraya, Naruto and the deceased Yondaime Hokage. Tsunade even mentioned Jiraya tried to teach that technique to some people, but to no avail. And the Rasengan relies heavily in chakra control - Naruto's weakest spot. How the hell did he learn the Rasengan, when even Tsunade with her near perfect chakra control could NOT use it?

[lexiefaye]

But lexiefaye, the Rasengan is a special case. The ONLY (and I mean ONLY) people who know it are Jiraya, Naruto and the  deceased Yondaime Hokage. Tsunade even mentioned Jiraya tried to teach that technique to some people, but to no avail. And the Rasengan relies heavily in chakra control - Naruto's weakest spot. How the hell did he learn the Rasengan, when even Tsunade with her near perfect chakra control could NOT use it?

You are right that Rasengan is a special case. It involves having the understanding to rotate pure chakra, the skill to imbue the modified chakra with intense power, and the the ability to retain control over it. And most people can't do all three ...

But Naruto can ... not because of any inate genetic skills to do so but by thinking outside the box the way his trickster days have taught him. It's nurture (or lack of it) not nature that gave him the mindset to use this left hand for rotation, use the leaf symbol for concentration, and use a Kage Bunshin for stablization. He essentially cheated the system to be able to Rasengan, something most ninja's wouldn't have done. 

The really interesting thing is he is able to one hand Rasengan with no tricks when he is in KN1. But again Naruto being able to do it has less to do with any genetic ties to Jiraiya or Yondaime and more to do with a power boost and chakra control boost of gaining one Kyuubi tail.   

[pjoto]

Well, anyway, ONE of my assumptions HAS to be right. Atleast ONE! Just ONE! That's all I need!

[lexiefaye]

Maybe during the past years he's been training with Jiraya, he's learned a few new jutsus the Yellow Flash left behind

I'll give you that one. K?

[Kusachu]

what i want to know is: if the soul of the sealer and the sealed are locked in hatred and battle inside the belly of he death god, and don't go to heaven or hell, then WOOPS! Kyuubi is certainly not inside the death god. and if he/it never went inside the death god then where did his soul go before he/it was well sealed'? it had to go somewhere before it was sealed into Naruto...Where could it have gone to?? My best guess is that the 4th drew the soul into himself THEN put it in Naruto...but if I was sealing the soul of a demon into a baby boy, i know i wouldn't want to have MY soul go into the death god all by itself!! ...I'd probably try just about anything to avoid that scenario!! perhaps there is some validity to your argument after all pjoto?? i don't have any references on hand, but I'm sure if i were to care enough to go digging, and had a reliable translation of the fight between Oro and the 3rd and the scenes where Naruto is talking with Kyuubi inside himself, (like during the Naru Sasu fight) then i may be able to find a scrap of SOMETHING that could be used to support at least the theory of the 4th's soul being somehow intangled inside all that demon chakra...or something like that...Didn't the 3rd say something about the souls of the sealer and the sealed will become intwined or some shit like that?? i have shitty chinese subtitles in my anime version and i have NO IDEA which chapter it is in, but maybe someone else would like to check on that?? Ah, well, just thought i'd offer my thoughts on the matter. Though, there is absolutely NO FRIGGIN WAY that the 4th is Jiraiya's FATHER!!!! LOLOLOLOL! maybe the other way around but I'm doubting it. It would be widely known if that was the case...but then...they never do mention a family name for any of the sannin or the 4th...or konohamaru for that matter, though i assume he is a OH! so is Asuma related to the third?? because the third is Sarutobi and Asuma's family name is Sarutobi isn't it?? is konohamaru also a Sarutobi? Or is Sarutobi the thirds given name?? Kishimoto is a confusing mofo to say the least. And while I'm ranting, who exactly took care of Naruto after he was born? If everyone hated him and all...XP gah...okay, I'm done.

[bastukorv]

We will probably never see who took care of naruto :)
As we all know ( from such series as Get Backers (just one exampel)... Who wouldnt like to know, who the hell is Mido Ban and where did he come from etc) japanese writes LOVE to leave out on all the goood stuff that happened in the past. Anyone think they're gonna show some bakground to Akutsuki or, I know I would like to see Itachi's background what he did before he killed his bestfriend and what he did right after he murdered his clan or when he came up with the ide to seek power instead of living in konoha. But They will probably never show it.

I dont fully understand that Death God jutsu. How could yondime seal that thing within naruto. Did Yondaime have Naruto on the battlefield while he executed the jutsu? When sanndaime used the jutsu he died right after the God cut Oro's arms. AND another thing, doesnt Oro transfer his Soul when he does is Forbidden Jutsu? Now if the arms of the Soul is cut off, shouldnt they still be off eventhough he change body? Otherwhise he could just have used a regular sword... :D

[HellbentTheGreatShinobi]

I dont fully understand that Death God jutsu. How could yondime seal that thing within naruto. Did Yondaime have Naruto on the battlefield while he executed the jutsu? When sanndaime used the jutsu he died right after the God cut Oro's arms. AND another thing, doesnt Oro transfer his Soul when he does is Forbidden Jutsu? Now if the arms of the Soul is cut off, shouldnt they still be off eventhough he change body? Otherwhise he could just have used a regular sword...--bastukorv

I doubt the Yondaime could use someone else body especially a newborn child to drag the Kyuubi's soul. Only the user's body can be use to drag the target since he is the one who made a contract with the Death God.

Actually, it was not Oro's soul that will tranfer to a new host when he use his freakin' immortality jutsu. Only his MIND that will tranfer to the now body. Hence, new body=new soul. That's why he can use again his hands after the transfer process.

It is said that using the jutsu (Shiki Fujin) "the soul of the user and the soul of the target will intermingle and hate each other for eternity". But why is that only the kyuubi can be seen inside of Naruto? The Yondaime was not there... Could it be that Naruto is exactly the Yondaime? :o

[HokageNaruto]

this is probably the best yondaime theory topic ive read, i mean imagine if yondaime and kyubbi are inside of naruto and naruto does learn techniques faster then usual because of the sub conscience of the 4th, man that would totally be orignal, i mean ppla re complaing that if yondaime and naruto are related that it be lame, nnnooooooooo just would make sense more then if they look and act alike and are just village members......i mean remember goku and taurles, looked alike but werent related, i mean that made freakin no sense, and dont give me that bull crap about low level saiyans looking alike....blah blah blah and im done

[SacredNic]

The 4th is sealed inside of Naruto

Ooooh I like that idea a LOT. In fact, you've made me a believer. heh. ;)

I don't believe that the 4th is Naruto's father or relation. Seeing as there is much pride in a ninja's family clan, had the 4th been Naruto's father it would have been mentioned long ago by someone. Also, the 3rd stated that Naruto's parents were killed in the fight against the Kyuubi. So obviously they knew who the parents were.

[HellbentTheGreatShinobi]

The 4th is sealed inside of Naruto-- pjoto

You mean after the 4th sealed the Kyuubi inside him, he sealed himself to Naruto afterwards? Who would perform the sealing process then? Don't tell me the Sandaime sealed the 4th (with the Kyuubi) to Naruto.

[GordoIrado]

It's a side effect of the Shiki Fuuin, as stated by Sandaime, Hellbent.

[HellbentTheGreatShinobi]

It's a side effect of the Shiki Fuuin, as stated by Sandaime, Hellbent.


When the 4th sealed the kyuubi there was side effect to him? Did I miss this or something? The only thing I know that when using the Shiki Fujin there's no way you can use other's body aside from the user's body since the user is the one who made the contract afterall. But why is that Naruto had the seal? Naruto don't have the conract with the Death God right?

[KRNseraphim]

about orochimaru being able to use his arms he probably just bound his soul with arashi (his new body's previous owner) i think yondaime knew how to use shiki fuujin better then sandaime and could probably choose his medium but still i dont understand how yondaime died but kyuubi was just sealed...maybe kyuubi's chakra is too much to seal even for the shinikami? iono

[HellbentTheGreatShinobi]

about orochimaru being able to use his arms he probably just bound his soul with arashi (his new body's previous owner) i think yondaime knew how to use shiki fuujin better then sandaime and could probably choose his medium but still i dont understand how yondaime died but kyuubi was just sealed...maybe kyuubi's chakra is too much to seal even for the shinikami? iono


Who's Arashi? It was never mentioned in the manga right? Actually, the Yondaime did performed another 2 jutsus in conjunction with the Shiki Fujin.

What if naruto IS the fourth???

He certainly looks like him and that's how most people give the whole "Naruto is the 4th's kid" thing, but what if Naruto wasn't his kid but actually WAS the 4th.

It would certainly explain why when the 3rd died, the seal was on HIS body but when the 4th used the jutsu, the seal was somehow on Naruto instead. When the 4th "died" the seal was on his as well, only his body is actually Naruto's. Also I don't think they've revealed the 4th's real name yet. It would also explain Naruto's innate powers and stamina (the ones not related to outright borrowing from the Nine tales chakra) and finally it would explain how he is able to easily master all of the 4th's old techniques, i.e. Rasengan and why everyone feels reminded of the 4th around him.

The biggest hole in this theory is that you're supposed to die when you make a pact with "death", but what if there was a way to overcome this. Some sort of jutsu whereby you just revert to a baby form instead. It is dying in a way because everything that makes you "you" is destroyed, all your memories and the like, and you have to re-live your entire life. Sorta like what Orochimaru does except with complete destruction of memories and a return to baby form. It might be possible that no one except maybe the 3rd knew of this occurrence, and he kept it a secret. (because he is the only other one who knows how to perform the jutsu and since he wasn't as advanced as the 4th in this jutsu, the 4th could have known another way to end the jutsu without outright death)


So there you go, what do you think of this crazy ass, but completely plausible theory? ;)

[elementc]

According to my crazy detector this theory must be correct because Kishimoto is completely crazy himself. :D

[shinraiden]

You know what, I got a really crazy theory I know you'll all love. Seeing as how this is all about Naruto, and whether he wants to repeat the dead end road of the past or forge his own path, the whole series could move along just fine without ever talking about Yondaime or Naruto's family. Think about it, same as Sasuke. Is he going to live in the past, or make his own future?

[SacredNic]

What if naruto IS the fourth???


Well... the 3rd said that Naruto's parents died in the fight against the Kyuubi. So either the 4th did a soul transfer technique like Oro (which would be very very cruel), or he simply commanded the Death God to seal the Kyuubi into the baby Naruto.

I hope Kishi explains it at some point. I'd go crazy if he ended the series without mention of Naruto's origins!

[HellbentTheGreatShinobi]

Well... the 3rd said that Naruto's parents died in the fight against the Kyuubi. So either the 4th did a soul transfer technique like Oro (which would be very very cruel), or he simply commanded the Death God to seal the Kyuubi into the baby Naruto.

I hope Kishi explains it at some point. I'd go crazy if he ended the series without mention of Naruto's origins!


I hate to be a burden, could you please give me on what chapter in the manga did the 3rd mentioned about Naruto's parents who died when the Kyuubi attacked Konoha? If he commanded the Death God to seal then Kyuubi inside baby Naruto, then supposedly Naruto will die? Since the Death God's hand will pass through him, right? Why is it he was alive then? :o

[zabuza21]

Wow! These are the most interesting theories I've read about in the 3 and 1/2 years of watching Naruto. While both the naruto being the fourth and the fourth being in naruto are plausible, I'm leaning more toward the fourth being within Naruto due to the whole intertwining souls of the sealer and sealed part of the technique. Its also a bit hard to believe that a genius ninja with the power of the kuubi could be such a clumsy guy like naruto. And didn't the kuubi tell Naruto to be grateful to the 4th who sealed the kuubi in Naruto during the susuke naruto fight at the falls, The Kuubi who was sealed by the 4th would probably know if naruto were the 4th and not tell him he should be thankful to himself. Well those are my thoughts and thanks for all the interesting theories!

[Kusachu]

GYAH!  Baby Naruto/Yondi??  I seen that in a fan fic a long time ago!!  XD  Kyahahahahaha!  I was thinking more along the lines of Yondaime uses jutsu to 'eat kyuubi's soul'---kyuubi is inside Yondaime...Yondaime obviously doesn't die right away though (even tough the 3rd died right away, i tend to think that was kinda because he had a sword through his belly), but instead uses a different sealing method (??  i assume this because the seal on the third is different than the seal on Naruto's belly) to seal Kyuubi into Naruto.  BUT if Kyuubi is inside of Yondaime, then maybe their souls could have become mixed at that piont??, so...after he seals kyuubi, then he is dead...(or has been sealed inside Naruto as well)  It is a little far fetched i know, but it seems more logical than Naruto being a baby Yondaime...at least to me...but then, what the heck do i know??  XP  

OH!  I like this quote from Mizuki in chapter 1 "...You are the nine tailed fox spirit that destroyed the village! Until at last, our beloved hero, the Fourth Lord Hokage trapped and bound you in this form!" it is from the VIZ bastardization so i doubt its quality, but it is a good one to interpolate Naruto's relationship to Kyuubi as Kishimoto originally envisioned it( and yes i know that iruka says that that isn't true, but really, what else is he supposed to say??). oh and in the manga it says nothing about him being sealed into a baby that just had his umbilicle cord cut off...that is an anime addition...Damn it all!  Now i gotta check the scanlation to compare the two...

ya know...maybe naruto is a baby yondaime afterall...(O.O)  Like maybe Yondi bound Kyuubi into human form (Naruto) but the reason why Naruto looks like Yondi is because it is really a combination of the two souls bound together as one individual??  Gah...I'm reaching...who knows...

I'm of the belief that Kishimoto hasn't written anything about all that because he doesn't even know himself, especially from what is going on in the manga right now.  He's probably changed his mind a few times...or had it changed for him by his editor(s).  That and being vague does leave open more options.  Okay, rant done.  (^-^)[br]Posted at: February 23, 2006, 04:53:29 AM_________________________________________________Zabuza21----NYAH! about naruto being clumsy and such---I had thought about that too, and i have a little thoery about that. See, i was thinking that maybe Naruto is a bit clumsy and oafish due to the imbalance of chakra inside him, like he's kinda top heavy with all that fox spirit in him and all, but also, if you take only that manga version of the story into account, Naruto isn't really all that clumsy after the first couple of story arcs...the anime is what makes him into a big jackass. OH! and another anime f*ck up: in the manga Naruto tells Jiraiya that when he feels the two chakra inside himself, one of them is YELLOW (ie. yellow chakra+ very fast= yellow flash), and the other is red...of course in the anime he says its blue...XP But the yellow and red chakra would combine to be orange as we see it when Naruto goes into kitsune mode(at least as far as the anime is concerned) ...I can't wait to see what he looks like animated with what's happening in the manga right now!!! *giddy dance*

And a tad out of nowhere: I love how when Naruto is in fox mode he becomes super fast. XD

[ShounenSuki]

The Yondaime isn't inside Naruto, nor is Naruto the Yondaime himself.
The Shiki Fuujin that the Yondaime used to seal the Kyuubi requires the sacrifice of the user's soul. This soul is then eaten by the Shinigami, usually together with the soul of the target.
In the Kyuubi's case, however, this didn't go as planned. The Kyuubi couldn't be killed, so the Shinigami couldn't take his soul. The Yondaime probably knew this, so he sealed the Kyuubi inside Naruto.
We know it's possible to seal in something besides your own body, because the Sandaime seals the Shodai and Nidaime inside his Kage Bunshin.

About what jutsu the Yondaime used to seal the Kyuubi; He used 'Shiki Fuujin' (Dead Demon Consuming Seal) to summon the Shinigami and seal the Kyuubi. The seal that was created was a 'Hakke no Fuuin Shiki' (Sealing Style of the Eight Trigrams), consisting of two 'Shishou Fuuin' (Four Symbols Seals). This allowed the Kyuubi's chakra to seep through, but probably also weakened the seal somewhat.

[pjoto]

The Yondaime isn't inside Naruto, nor is Naruto the Yondaime himself.
The Shiki Fuujin that the Yondaime used to seal the Kyuubi requires the sacrifice of the user's soul. This soul is then eaten by the Shinigami, usually together with the soul of the target.
In the Kyuubi's case, however, this didn't go as planned. The Kyuubi couldn't be killed, so the Shinigami couldn't take his soul. The Yondaime probably knew this, so he sealed the Kyuubi inside Naruto.
We know it's possible to seal in something besides your own body, because the Sandaime seals the Shodai and Nidaime inside his Kage Bunshin.

About what jutsu the Yondaime used to seal the Kyuubi; He used 'Shiki Fuujin' (Dead Demon Consuming Seal) to summon the Shinigami and seal the Kyuubi. The seal that was created was a 'Hakke no Fuuin Shiki' (Sealing Style of the Eight Trigrams), consisting of two 'Shishou Fuuin' (Four Symbols Seals). This allowed the Kyuubi's chakra to seep through, but probably also weakened the seal somewhat.


Hrmpf, okay, sounds like you've got allot of facts there, and everything should be right, in theory.. But Kishimoto is kinda crazy, and things doesn't always go as planned in practice.
So I'm still hoping the 4th is either sealed inside Naruto with the Kyubii, or his techniques and chakra was sealed inside Naruto, making him understanding the 4ths techniques faster and easier.

Oh, and I'm gonna laugh in all your faces when Kishimoto explains my theory is right :p :)

[HellbentTheGreatShinobi]

About Naruto being clumsy compared to the Yondaime, it's because Naruto grew up differently than the Yondaime. Remember it takes nature and nurture to shape one's personality. Even today if you made a clone of yourself, it could never be the same as who you are because they won't grow up exactly the same as you did.

The 3rd's Kage Bunshin works it's because bunshins are the same with the user in blood and in soul (theoritically). So the contract of the user and the Shinigami still works even with the bunshins. That's why I doubt that using Shiki Fujin you can use other's body to drag the kyuubi inside that body since that body don't have the contract with the Death God and as we all know that contracts requires the user's blood.

It is true indeed that the Yondaime performed another 2 jutsus in conjunction with the Shiki Fujin. But we don't know exactly the effect of those two jutsus in the user's body physically. Another possibility is that, when the 4th sealed the Kyuubi inside him, his very own soul was consumed by the Shinigami afterwards leaving his very own dead body with the Kyuubi inside. Since the Kyuubi was still inside the 4th's body and didn't die because the Shinigami is not worth killing the Kyuubi. What if the Kyuubi gives life to the 4th's dead body? Since the Kyuubi's soul was trapped inside and still alive? After giving life to that body, the effect change that body physically... Somehow this could answer why the 4th's body is nowhere to be found. And that there was a child left in the battlefield... Then shinobis came along and saw the child lying there then they concluded that since the 4th was not there they assumed the 4th died while sealing the Kyuubi in that child. ;)

[walkie]

well basically if naruto is yondaime, yondaime should awaken one day..and that will kill the character of "naruto"..if yondaime will not awaken then what is the difference from being dead and being naruto/yondaime??..so no!! naruto is not yondaime...

[konX]

Yondaime IS the seal and the two souls that will forever be fighting each other are Narutos and the 9 tails. Think of it this way, inside Naruto, Yondaime is the prison that hold Kyuubi, or the seal on the door, and that in order to protect Naruto, the seal ie Yondaime, allows Kyuubi power to leak out. Even though Yondaime is inside Naruto, he cannot contact Naruto directly since he is constantly keeping Kyuubi in check. I bet some time in the near future when Naruto looks deeper into his subconscious, he will be able to see/speak to Yondaime. Thats just my theory, im sure Kubo will give us a good answer IF there is one.

[pjoto]

Yeah, something like that. I really hope Naruto gets to talk with the man who sealed the Kyubii inside of him, and decided his fate before he could choose himself.

[glasskatana]

My take on the whole thing can be summed up in two possible theories.
1.)Perhaps Kyuubi doesn't have a "soul" so he has to be sealed within other beings. They say at one point of the manga that at certain periods of times the kyuubi just sort of spawns into the world.

2.)Yondaime puts seals on Naruto and then moves towards the kyuubi with Naruto in his arms or something. He then performs the Fuuin Jutsu Shiki fuujin. The hand of death moves through the Yondaime's stomach and through naruto's stomach to the kyuubi.

You see, The fourth had already realized, like when Sandaime realized that he couldn't pull out Oro's soul all the way, that he wouldn't have been able to pull the kyuubi out all the way past his own stomach so instead the hand of death lets go of the soul while in Naruto's stomach. Yondaime dies, thus completing the contract with death. So the kyuubi never really died, however the seal that the yondaime originally put on Naruto's stomach keeps the kyuubi within Naruto. The end. Your thoughts please.

[walkie]

My take on the whole thing can be summed up in two possible theories.
1.)Perhaps Kyuubi doesn't have a "soul" so he has to be sealed within other beings. They say at one point of the manga that at certain periods of times the kyuubi just sort of spawns into the world.


this is true for all bijuus..in chinese/japanese tales, bijuus where walking on land and causing damages, not only kyuubi.but in naruto we start from the era where bijuus were sealed.plus bijuus are not souls, they are made of pure chakra.yondaime summoned death god because 9-tail was a huge mass of chakra to control/seal.

and yondaime used 3 seals to seal kyuubi into naruto:
1-)Shiki Fuujin : After calling forth the Shinigami (Death God) with the proper handseals, the user will hand over their soul in exchange for the Death God removing the soul from his target.

2-)The Shishou Fuuin was used in conjunction with the Shiki Fuujin technique to seal the Kyuubi demon within the stomach of Naruto. (basically moves kyuubi from yondaime to naruto)

3-)The Hakke no Fuuin Shiki allows the two Shishou Fuuin to leak the Kyuubi chakra back into Naruto's own chakra. (without this naruto wouldnt be able to kyuubi powers)

[Miso]

Ooooh I like that idea a LOT. In fact, you've made me a believer. heh. ;)

I don't believe that the 4th is Naruto's father or relation. Seeing as there is much pride in a ninja's family clan, had the 4th been Naruto's father it would have been mentioned long ago by someone. Also, the 3rd stated that Naruto's parents were killed in the fight against the Kyuubi. So obviously they knew who the parents were.


You've got a point here. I don't see any sense why it hasn't be mentioned alreaday if Naruto was Yondaime's child. I mean, he's FAMOUS. He was the Hokage! The ppl must have know if the Hokage gets a child and they must have known if this was Naruto.
Nevertheless, there are many similarities. They do look very similar and there's the fact that Naruto learned Rasengan, a Yondaime's technique, totally easily which might indicate that he has inherited the 4th' talent.

And the idea that the 4th is the father of Jiraya is a bit unlikely as already stated by my fellow members.

[tzeonn]

i got a theory...

maybe the fourth sealed the kyuubi into himself, but almost couldnt control the kyubi, so he sealed himself into naruto? thus a double seal: 1 to seal kyubi, and another seal to leak chakra out for naruto to use.

[pjoto]

Yeah, that could work :) :p

[bastukorv]

I wonder what would have happened if Yondaime was still alive when Orochimaru decided to go against Konoha.
First of all, would he even go against Konoha if Yondaime was hokage, or could Orochimaru woop his as?

[Clodderes]

He'll still do it.

because Yondaime technically is one generation below the three sennin. So He could be strongger then yondaime, but he maybe want to consider his plan because the he will have to fight againts both sandaime and yondaime, that would be difficult.

[chin sai]

he would not go against yondaime. everyone including oro aknowledged his strenth. in the sandaime dies arc, everyone was like if only the 4th was here.
and oro was like , thank god the 4ths' not here
ok a little exaggerated

[white silver]

[b][color=green][font=tahoma]Yondaime seems to be a very dangerous person from what I've seen in the manga. Undoubtely he must be the most talented ninja in the face of Konoha. If he could stop a Kyubi, he can most certainly stop Orochimaru, using the same methods (or not). But personally, I think Yondaime is stronger than Orochimaru. [b]

[Obito]

Well I think Orochimaru would have reconsidered trying to invade Konoha if Yondaime still was Hokage he was meant to be one of the strongest ninjas of all time and even Sandaime was relieved that Orochimaru didn't bring back Yondaime to fight aginst him.

[The Boff]

Well I think Orochimaru would have reconsidered trying to invade Konoha if Yondaime still was Hokage he was meant to be one of the strongest ninjas of all time and even Sandaime was relieved that Orochimaru didn't bring back Yondaime to fight aginst him.


well he did bring him back but the sandaime managed to block it. and he said something like:
"ive got to stop the third(coffin) no matter what!"
and that sounds to me like he was desperate and REALLY didnt want to fight Yondy.

[siegfried]

but we are not sure that if the third coffin was yondaime's.and actually I didnt understand that part very much.did he really block the coffin?or oro couldnt manage to summon it?what happened there.

[The Boff]

ok they dont say right out that it was yondy, but honestly... who else would it be?
and seeing at Oros character its just like him to do something like that. bringing out all the hokages
to kill the last one.

and as far as i could tell considering what sandaime says and does in that moment I would say that he "seals"
it back, or something like that. he's throwing out a lot of handseals and then the coffin stops to move...
i think its safe to say that sandaime stopped it

[Rampages]

Orochimaru would still betray Konoha, but Yondaime would make him flea the village(just like sandaime did)

[The Boff]

or he would not have let him run away like the sandaime did. sandaime had bonds to oro that yondy doesnt have.
so its a big possibility that yondy would have tried to attack him.

[Miso]

I think Oro would still try to go against Konoha. It would be undoubtly more difficult for him to invade Konoha because Yondaime was supposed to be very strong. And against Yondaime and Sandaime combined I think he would lose terribly.
But as we know Oro - he's not dumb. If Yondi would be still alive Oro would have taken that into consideration and would gather more power - perhaps by allying with someone strong.
Or he would invent some uber-sneaky plan to take over the village. ;)

[walkie]

oro will still try crushing konoha because this is an obsession for him...but he will not fight against yondaime!!! while everyone else fighthing he will again use some shield and fight against sandaime first...because the problems are between those two not between yondaime and oro...but after that fight may be yondaime will not allow him to escape and can use his kunai's to mark him so he will get oro in a short time, oro would be more vulnarable after fight against sandaime

[chin sai]

hey remember the manga
inour rock village we are taught to run if we see that person
y,your the konohas yellow flash
aww ma'an[


but we are not sure that if the third coffin was yondaime's.and actually I didnt understand that part very much.did he really block the coffin?or oro couldnt manage to summon it?what happened there.
remember sarutobi was still in the middle of the shuriken kagebunshin!!!
oro couldn't summon him and that what made me supersuspisious when everyone started calling the akatsuki leader yondaime
i was like huh!!??

[Remus]

Well Im not totally sure but was the Kazekage Oro killed maybe the 4th ? Which could be considered as well.

[chin sai]

[b][color=green][font=tahoma]Yondaime seems to be a very dangerous person from what I've seen in the manga. Undoubtely he must be the most talented ninja in the face of Konoha. If he could stop a Kyubi, he can most certainly stop Orochimaru, using the same methods (or not). But personally, I think Yondaime is stronger than Orochimaru. [b]
oro would have been killed on the spot ..well this also worth mentioning a sharingan would mean squat to hirashin
the yellow flash thing is worth mentioning even without hiraishin, it's not like he was considered even remotely weak.

lets say the strongest kazekage ever, faught yondaime. he would die just like that.
the yellow flash thing i think describes his speed, no features, just flash

too bad we can't determine if he was faster than lee with the open gates

but from what i can tell, if he knew you were there you where already dead

[lexiefaye]

Orochimaru doesnt understand that by killing the cornerstone of Konoha he can't destroy the foundation. He'd have still attepted it ... although you cant deny he has a much more personal vendetta against Sandaime ... but his failure would have been complete unlike against Sandaime ... just like his failure would have been complete if sandaime was in his prime. But Orochimaru is a risk taker so he would have tried anyways ...

[C4animax]

If the third was able to make oro retreat, for me there is no doubt that oro couldn't win against yondaime, and anyway he was hokage level so the fact that oro is a sanin doesn't bother me. From what i saw i believe that he was the strongest ninja in naruto world.

I think he would still try but wouldn't make such succes.

For the summoned coffin there is a topic out there. (i said sandaime stoped it! watch the episode again!)



oro would have been killed on the spot ..well this also worth mentioning a sharingan would mean squat to hirashin
the yellow flash thing is worth mentioning even without hiraishin, it's not like he was considered even remotely weak.

lets say the strongest kazekage ever, faught yondaime. he would die just like that.
the yellow flash thing i think describes his speed, no features, just flash

too bad we can't determine if he was faster than lee with the open gates

but from what i can tell, if he knew you were there you where already dead


It's teleportation dude, instantaneous speed, he's faster than lee no doubt about it!!

[chin sai]

If the third was able to make oro retreat, for me there is no doubt that oro couldn't win against yondaime, and anyway he was hokage level so the fact that oro is a sanin doesn't bother me. From what i saw i believe that he was the strongest ninja in naruto world.

I think he would still try but wouldn't make such succes.

For the summoned coffin there is a topic out there. (i said sandaime stoped it! watch the episode again!)

It's teleportation dude, instantaneous speed, he's faster than lee no doubt about it!!
thank you now my point being oro is dead on arrival, even with a million bunshins

i think the 9 tails was summoned there to get rid of the 4th

[white silver]

[b][color=green][font=tahoma]You know chin sai, I've been thinking about that as well. Was the Kyubi actually released by Orochimaru? Knowing he couldn't take the 4th by himself he had to resort drastic measures. During that time, Orochimaru is still an ally of Konoha, it could be that it was his FIRST unsuccesful attempt to destroy Konoha (secretly). And now he got so desperate, he teamed up with Sand in order to finish the job (Again, PURE speculation)[b]

[C4animax]

Actually that could fit...but in the beginin of the story it says that evey x years a monster like that appear, that could be just coincidence, maybe?

[chin sai]

i'm not saying oro by himself, could be akatsuki first.
did they get itachi before or after the " death" of the 4th.
how far does the descent go

just consider it takes a group of them

different incarnations of thet organization, could've been trying since konoha's inception

since the first battle battle of kages' at the valley of the end

[pjoto]

[b][color=green][font=tahoma]You know chin sai, I've been thinking about that as well.  Was the Kyubi actually released by Orochimaru?  Knowing he couldn't take the 4th by himself he had to resort drastic measures.  During that time, Orochimaru is still an ally of Konoha, it could be that it was his FIRST unsuccesful attempt to destroy Konoha (secretly).  And now he got so desperate, he teamed up with Sand in order to finish the job (Again, PURE speculation)[b]


Seems like someone's been smoking some bad wheed and got the paranoia?
Isn't that a bit too drastic?


Also, yes, the 4th would destroy Orochimaru in a matter of split secounds.
The Yellow Flash with the Full Power Rasengan among other original techniques only known by the 4th, yup, Orochimaru'd be gone. And that's that.

And I think the reason Orochimaru couldn't summon the 4th's corpse was because his soul was locked inside of the Death-Gods' stomach. (or maby he was just afraid of seeing him again :p :) )

[chin sai]

someone off handedly mentioned that maybe naruto was the reincarnation of the 4th, meaning his spirit is also in naruto
and yeah, the 4th would wipe out oro..not even a could be topic in my mind
about the 4th i'm hoping he only used bunshins, escaped death and is tracking akatsuki...yeah i know far fetched

[bastukorv]

Wasn't it Sandaime who stopped the revival of Yonny (boy)? :P
Didn't he say somthing like "I have to stop the next (refering to yondaime) no matter what" and performed some kind of seal?

[C4animax]

Damn guy why would sandaime say : I must stop this one at all cost, if he didn't stopped it? I mean look at it again he is even using a hand seal !!! So there is no question about the corpse was inside or not, he was badly stopped by the third! Now to know what was in the coffin is another matter really.(put this after reading batsu ;) )

Back to topic, i think that akatsuki or even oro would rather keep the monster for themselves/himself, but he's no match for such a monster...

[chin sai]

doesn't jutsu need to be directed.
there was no release, or name of the release

[bastukorv]

Ye there's nothing that says that it actually is Yondaime in the cascit, but logicly after summoning Shodaime and Nidaime, there should be another hokage in the last one :)
Someone claimed that "it's not yondaime because his soul is within the Death God" hower the jutsu Edo Tensai uses sacrifised souls to tie the bodys to the world :p
In other words, it is not the soul of Yondaime you summon, it's the body and then attach someone elses soul...

[chin sai]

Ye there's nothing that says that it actually is Yondaime in the cascit, but logicly after summoning Shodaime and Nidaime, there should be another hokage in the last one :)
Someone claimed that "it's not yondaime because his soul is within the Death God" hower the jutsu Edo Tensai uses sacrifised souls to tie the bodys to the world :p
In other words, it is not the soul of Yondaime you summon, it's the body and then attach someone elses soul...

not quite, you summon the soul and bind it to this plane in sacrificial bodies, s'all good though

[bastukorv]

oh yeah, you are absolutely right! My bad, was some time since i saw the episodes :)

[hatakescarecrow]

This is so sad nobody defending oro??????????????
Okay we all know yondai was perhaps the strongest ever ninja.
But bear with me for a moment before u start thrashing and flaming me.

I agree that yondai was great but there must always be someone greater.
After all oro plans to learn all jutsus in the world.
We all know oro got kicked out of konoha for illegal experimenting.
Do not forget that when oro was with akatsuki, he and sasori collected jutsus so he may have gained a lot of power
there.Not to mention that sandaime said that oro had enough strength to take down a country himself.
Now we go to anko wishing that yondai was still alive.To me it indicates that yondai would at least be able to measure
up against oro.

Oro has an ambition and that is the destruction of konoha. To me he would still attack. But at later date instead.
When he gained even more power and his village becoming even more powerful.

Overall i respect your views but please respect mine and refrain from flaming.

[chin sai]

yondaime is a ninja that surpassed the imagination, do you really think that he would wait for oro to get stronger?

[hatakescarecrow]

Remember hokage cannot simply run out of the village for nin-hunting.
They are supposed to govern and stay in the village.

[siegfried]

Remember hokage cannot simply run out of the village for nin-hunting.
They are supposed to govern and stay in the village.


ehehe but in yondy's situation it is different.he can be in multiple places almost in the same time.

[hatakescarecrow]

ehehe but in yondy's situation it is different.he can be in multiple places almost in the same time.


U need a tag to do harashin.

[siegfried]

U need a tag to do harashin.


so what?he could place a tag to to the village and could teleport any second.

[C4animax]

U need a tag to do harashin.

And ninjas...kakashi gaiden...4 ninjas 50 kunais and yeah he could put a tag in his bed (lol).

[MadTact]

Oro would have probably waited till he got Sasuke(or whoever) before attacking Konoha.

[imported_m_c]

What if... the reason why naruto can handle the kyuubi's chakra is because, when yondaime sealed the kyuubi and sacrificed his life, he was sealed too or his chakra was imparted to naruto?
Might explain why naruto says his chakra feels yellow... hmmm...

[siegfried]

What if... the reason why naruto can handle the kyuubi's chakra is because, when yondaime sealed the kyuubi and sacrificed his life, he was sealed too or his chakra was imparted to naruto?
Might explain why naruto says his chakra feels yellow... hmmm...


it is orange actually.

[glasskatana]

No I think it says yellow. We'll have to ask a translator. Though, if you mix the Crimson of the kyuubi and the yellow of Naruto, you would get orange.

[siegfried]

No I think it says yellow. We'll have to ask a translator. Though, if you mix the Crimson of the kyuubi and the yellow of Naruto, you would get orange.


actually I dont remember the word orange or yellow said.but in the anime his aura was orange.so it must be orange.

[imported_m_c]

no, when he was learning to summon with jiraiya, jiraiya asked him and he said his chakra felt yellow and the kyuubi's chakra felt red.

[Anax]

Let me say a few things in defense of Orochi, too.

Orochi is smart and in my mind the best tactic for him would be to wait. We've seen him blatantly admiting inferiority in the past, so one could say that his ego doesn't get in the way of his judgement. When he attacked Konoha he did so with 4 experts in seals and went straight for the Hokage, who was... old. Orochi made a big deal out of Sarutobi being old, praising his body stealing jutsu. If he could wait so long to kill Sarutobi, when he hated him so much, then I don't think he'd mind waiting till the time was right to attack, even if Yondaime was alive. A good tactic can offset the warriors' skills in the battlefield and Orochi has proved his worth on the matter.
Now, somewhat of a weak point for Orochi could be this: Yondaime became Hokage in his place, so he might have wanted to kill him as badly as Sarutobi. In Sarutobi's case he managed to kill him because of the inescapable field jutsu and Sarutobi's age, should Yondaime be alive though he might have had to sit back and wait for them to die of old age. I don't think he could be that much cold and calculative though... I think he'd want to be the one to kill those two. Still, judging from how the manga is called "Naruto" and not "Yondaime", it's possible that he might have succeeded. All in all, it's a possible scenario.
Lastly, someone once mentioned (sorry for not remembering your name) that in Naruto's world it's not just about ninja skill or power, each battle has been determined equally by skill and situational elements. The time, place, political situation, the fighters' health, worries, ambitions, everything matters in Naruto's world. So, even if Yondaime was The Ninja of all time, in a given situation he could be killed by Orochi. I'm not saying he would, just that he could. After all what we know of Yondaime is mostly rumours. Being a legend can really alter the facts about a person and being Konoha's Yellow Flash, one might be a bit flashy, which is exactly what the crowds want. Anyway, I mean no disrespect towards any given character in the manga or anime,just... speculating away! :D

[siegfried]

no, when he was learning to summon with jiraiya, jiraiya asked him and he said his chakra felt yellow and the kyuubi's chakra felt red.


man what happened to blue?

I think naruto's chakra is blue and kyuubi's is orange.

it is what is like in the anime.I dont really remember manga but it must be like this.anime cant make up things.
dont you remember sasuke vs naruto fight in valley of the end.kyuubi's chakra was absolutely orange.

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/8677/naruto095fl.gif

doesnt this show?

edit:and you know rasengan is blue too. :narsengan

[ILUVATAR]

i am a little confused too.
i agree that in the anime there are many times that we see naruto's aura of blue color (siegfrieds' pic, even the rasengan as he says) then again i don't remember naruto saying anything about yellow chahra (i have to check this today and be sure about it tomorow) only about the red chakra that he felt inside him cause of the kyuubi.... i'll edit this post tomorow, damn i hate forgeting things like that

:noworry ehm am i to remind you that we are totaly of topic now? *The Konoha Crush (what if)*
well then...
what if Oro had five sound nins instead of four with him in that raid (you know who i speak of right? :amuse ;))

[glasskatana]

The anime took the liberty to completely change Naruto's chakra. In the anime it does indeed say that his chakra is blue. However in the manga, Naruto states that his chakra feels yellow as seen in volume 11 chapter 81 page 15 which I have posted below. Hope that clears things up. :smile-big
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8281/naruto111158cs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[siegfried]

The anime took the liberty to completely change Naruto's chakra. In the anime it does indeed say that his chakra is blue. However in the manga, Naruto states that his chakra feels yellow as seen in volume 11 chapter 81 page 15 which I have posted below. Hope that clears things up. :smile-big
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8281/naruto111158cs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


actually I didnt remember that part until you show it but then which is true?(maybe in that part naruto just made up those colours to show that he had a different feeling of chakra from normal one.not meaning the colours exactly??)

in anime normal people said to have blue chakra.is it the same in manga too?because I seem to forgot everything about the chakra colours in manga.

according to manga if it is true that normal people have blue chakra.then we can be sure that naruto is somehow reincarnation of yondaime.why would he have yellow chakra while other people have blue or another colour?then m_c is right in his assumption.

[glasskatana]

I don't believe there is a normal people have this color in the manga. Naruto is the only person so far who has defined his own chakra in color. Yellow normal, red kyuubi. If you are going to go for which one is 'true' though, you should always look to the manga, as it is made directly by kishimoto, so obviously that's the way he meant it.

[C4animax]

Er i know i'm off topic but the anime (most of the time) correct some errors that has been made in the manga (with or without the agreement of the autor) so the story can fit correctly. So that's one of kishi's mistake.(everyone else has it blue...) That's my opinion :p

[Rampages]

The author made a mistake ? You mean he wanted to write blue but wrote yellow ?

[ILUVATAR]

my mistake... i just check it. yes naruto speakes of his chakra colour as yellow and kyuubi's as red but i don't believe that by this only we must put him to be some sort of the fourths recarnation jee... his words are IF I PUT IT IN COLOR so that's his own opinion of the color of his chakra. I would bet that Sasuke's opinion of his chakra would be blue and Sakura's pink or something like this (i have seen it in way too many anime series, most of the characters match the color of their clothes with something else... - a pittiful exaple :s are the Power Rangers, check their clothes are the same color with their uniforms)
and how in the world C4animax you say that they make a mistake in the manga to correct it in the anime ... :notrust i hope you're joking man, i can see more mistakes in one episode of the anime than in one volume of the manga :noworry
(and we keep going out of topic :offtopic) damn

[Rampages]

But the anime is based on the manga anyway, so I think there would be an official Errata or something.

[C4animax]

When comes to animation the autor Kishimoto may give some story line or plot or abrobation for "mistakes" left (i mean they probably tell him what's wrong at this part of the story) and filler story (such as anko's past) but has no real word to say about it, why? Firstly because he doesn't have time to look at it and secondly because the directors got like 10 years experience in the animation and knows better what they are doing than him.

In fact if you check (i probably will..) some of the manga story doesn't fit or match . I don't give much details about the making of the anime but they do it weekly, so they may do "animation" mistake (which i haven't seen so far) but the story fits.

So in the end it might be a mistake from kishimoto, you can see that everyone in the anime has his chakra blue expect strange/special chakra.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even with the 5 ninjas someone talked about yondaime owns everything, oro would probably wait that yondaime gets old but then we would have to see who would be hokage...and what would it be if it was kakashi ? :D

[Rampages]

And someone on this forum said kakashi's father had white chakra lol

I wonder if they will change that in the anime too.

[C4animax]

you can see that everyone in the anime has his chakra blue expect strange/special chakra.

As for kyubi this is a special chakra that gave the name to kakashi's father.

[Pyro Darkness]

I think that when it came to one-on-one hand to hand battle, Yondaime was practically undefeatable, thanks a lot to Hiraishin no jutsu,

[Miso]

Please let us go on-topic again. We are talking about the Konoha Crush here and not possible mistakes with the chakra colors, k? ;)




Let me say a few things in defense of Orochi, too.

Orochi is smart and in my mind the best tactic for him would be to wait. We've seen him blatantly admiting inferiority in the past, so one could say that his ego doesn't get in the way of his judgement. When he attacked Konoha he did so with 4 experts in seals and went straight for the Hokage, who was... old. Orochi made a big deal out of Sarutobi being old, praising his body stealing jutsu. If he could wait so long to kill Sarutobi, when he hated him so much, then I don't think he'd mind waiting till the time was right to attack, even if Yondaime was alive. A good tactic can offset the warriors' skills in the battlefield and Orochi has proved his worth on the matter.
Now, somewhat of a weak point for Orochi could be this: Yondaime became Hokage in his place, so he might have wanted to kill him as badly as Sarutobi. In Sarutobi's case he managed to kill him because of the inescapable field jutsu and Sarutobi's age, should Yondaime be alive though he might have had to sit back and wait for them to die of old age. I don't think he could be that much cold and calculative though... I think he'd want to be the one to kill those two. Still, judging from how the manga is called "Naruto" and not "Yondaime", it's possible that he might have succeeded. All in all, it's a possible scenario.
Lastly, someone once mentioned (sorry for not remembering your name) that in Naruto's world it's not just about ninja skill or power, each battle has been determined equally by skill and situational elements. The time, place, political situation, the fighters' health, worries, ambitions, everything matters in Naruto's world. So, even if Yondaime was The Ninja of all time, in a given situation he could be killed by Orochi. I'm not saying he would, just that he could. After all what we know of Yondaime is mostly rumours. Being a legend can really alter the facts about a person and being Konoha's Yellow Flash, one might be a bit flashy, which is exactly what the crowds want. Anyway, I mean no disrespect towards any given character in the manga or anime,just... speculating away! :D




Nice Anax.
I think you gave us some good points here.
I also doubt that it would be this easy to defeat Orochimaru even if Yondaime lived.
It's just that I think that Oro would take that into consideration and would think of something to defeat him. He is not so dumb to rush into the village directly and clash against a Sarutobi-Yondaime combo alone. This wouldn't be him!
I think he would have a neat strategy - something to knock of both of them. I'm not saying that he will win necessarily - only that he would be prepared and give them a hard fight.

[Darkcinosking]

I've heard the the various stories\topics and rumours about Yondiame [hope I spelt that right] being Naruto's dad but never about his mother

Point :
In the flashbacks of Sandiame [before he dies in the anime\manga] you see various pictures of the students [Including Iruka] . You see a picture of a women [possibily Yondiame's wife] with Naruto as a baby siting on her lap. However you are not shown her face. The lady with Naruto is wearing a red costume. :shannaro
What's your view ? :Gaipose

[centimetre]

What mother? Naruto was directly spawned from Yondaime, a bunshin of sorts.

*guffaws*

[Darkcinosking]

Didn't you see the bit as Sandiame was having flashbacks [in the anime] as he was dieing ??
It clearly showed a baby Naruto on somebody's lap !! :shannaro

[Obito]

Well you can't really just rely on anime as if it isnt in the manga then it isnt necessarily true, and that women could have been anyone so I don't think theres enough evidence to support your theory.

[centimetre]

Didn't you see the bit as Sandiame was having flashbacks [in the anime] as he was dieing ??
It clearly showed a baby Naruto on somebody's lap !! :shannaro


ok first of all..

anime != canon

secondly...

I don't watch the anime
but feel free to tell me which episode you saw this in, I have all of it...

and finally,

just because he's on someone's lap doesn't mean it was his mother :D

[Darkcinosking]

Go Over the Limit! Light and Shadow! Episode 79 ...... I believe........

[Super Ninja of Justice VANISH !!] Logs out

[glasskatana]

In the manga you can't tell who is carrying Naruto, let alone their gender. Though someone must have taken care of him. I expect it was Sandaime and Naruto simply doesn't remember it. Or it may have been one of the people in the village who aren't ninja. There are people like that you know. I think that is the more probable answer. As for why Naruto still lives alone, besides the fact that people probably didn't want to adopt him, I have no idea.

[Hemostrat]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/Hemostrat/Naruto-122-17.jpg

As Glasskatana said, you can't tell who or what gender the person is that is holding Naruto.

[white silver]

[font=tahoma][color=green]Hey Anax, you've proved some points.  But I just find "one small thing" that is quite contradictable.  As you know, Orochimaru is a VERY IMPATIENT MAN.  Haven't you noticed how badly he wanted Sasuke's body.  So if one thing doesn't work with him, he'd find another way (just like Tsunade's case).  Indeed Orochimaru is a very wise person, and I most certainly agree that he won't let his EGO go his way, but if he wants something he'll do it "one way or the other".  Cause I certainly won't agree that Orochimaru would wait till Yondaime becomes old!

The Kyubi incident might be unexpected and much to Orochimaru's luck, one of the greatest ninjas of all time to protect Konoha is dead, now it's just Sarutobi.  But, then Sandaime was a force to be reckoned with during that time but then Orochimaru knew his weakness and decided to wait.  He may be patient for things to come contrary to his attitude (which may explain his erratic behaiviour of killing unnecessarily just like that poor dude who wanted to give Orochimaru his medicine)

[tyleroc]

man what happened to blue?

I think naruto's chakra is blue and kyuubi's is orange.

it is what is like in the anime.I dont really remember manga but it must be like this.anime cant make up things.
dont you remember sasuke vs naruto fight in valley of the end.kyuubi's chakra was absolutely orange.

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/8677/naruto095fl.gif

doesnt this show?

edit:and you know rasengan is blue too. :narsengan


i really dont want to go off topic but i just have to point this out. this statement about anime not being able to make thigns up? that is completely false, the manga or the mangaka's own words are your only undeniable truth, anime's alter the manga all the time when they create their show by changing things, taking things out, or adding things, such as fillers. it doesnt matter if other animes have all used blue "chakra" or "ki" or "spirit energy", if the mangaka says its yellow, then for his story he wants it yellow. thats like saying that maybe he accidentally made his name naruto when it was orignally supposed to be karuto just because hypothetically the anime calls him karuto. i cant believe that anybody can actually think that the anime's word on this is more truthful then the mangas. bottom line, is that it is yellow, unless otherwise stated by kishimoto himself.


now, on topic.. I dont think that oro would have a chance against yondaime. kishi makes yondi out to be a god in the world of naruto for a reason, so that naruto will have the VERY TOP person to look up to, resemble, and follow in his foot steps.

[conan]

well that proves its there and the anime took it from the manga, but in the anime its the person holding naruto has a red blouse
which gives a look that its most likely a womens top, but remevering it youreally cant say, and you really cant make any assumptions
about narutos mother from this alone.

there is absolutely no lead to who narutos mother is at all, the only thing I remeber that has anything to do with narutos parents are his looks that
are similar to yondaimes and we havent seen anyone else with such looks in the village, and jiraiy actually mentioning that to naruto when they started their trip to get back tsunade.
thats not close enugh to say anything but thats all ive got from the anime manga.

[blaze109]

Dose any 1 else think that naruto and the 4 hokage are related

[ramicollo]

this is true for all bijuus..in chinese/japanese tales, bijuus where walking on land and causing damages, not only kyuubi.but in naruto we start from the era where bijuus were sealed.plus bijuus are not souls, they are made of pure chakra.yondaime summoned death god because 9-tail was a huge mass of chakra to control/seal.

and yondaime used 3 seals to seal kyuubi into naruto:
1-)Shiki Fuujin : After calling forth the Shinigami (Death God) with the proper handseals, the user will hand over their soul in exchange for the Death God removing the soul from his target.

2-)The Shishou Fuuin was used in conjunction with the Shiki Fuujin technique to seal the Kyuubi demon within the stomach of Naruto. (basically moves kyuubi from yondaime to naruto)

3-)The Hakke no Fuuin Shiki allows the two Shishou Fuuin to leak the Kyuubi chakra back into Naruto's own chakra. (without this naruto wouldnt be able to kyuubi powers)


I agree with this. *You probably got your info from www.leafninja.com, right?*

[Remus]

Well Im not sure if it has already been mentioned since Im sleepy and its late but maybe the 4th body was just not pure enough to seal up so much Anger, Hatred and Pure Evil that he had to use the most innocent type of body/figure to seal it in. Whats more innocent than a little baby Naruto ^_^ ?
Well just my thought. My apologies if someone is as smart as myself and already wrote it down.

[Risado]

But I sincerly believe the 4th is somewhere inside of Naruto.


Yeah, me too. Maybe not his complete soul, but definately his personality, and his talent.



The 4th hid the secret techniques he learned inside of the Kyubii seal with the Kyubii, (the seal gradually gives Naruto more and more power from the Kyubii as time passes and his body can handle it, so maby the seal also gives out techniques into Narutos sub-conciounsness as he grows older and gets more controll and might be more compattible in order to make the jutsus. If you understand?
Or maby he knew them all the moment he got the seal, but needs help to re-learn them and remember them.. So when Jiraya shows him how to do it, he picks them up from his sub-consiounsness and learns them really fast. Understand?)


THAT WOULD BE SO F***ING COOL!

[walkie]

I agree with this. *You probably got your info from www.leafninja.com, right?*


yep, my apologies not mentioning about leafninja.com....may be i forgot that post was in februaury :s anyway this is also mentioned in manga where jiraiya unsealed orochimarus seal on naruto...

[ShounenSuki]

I see there's a lot of confusion about how the Yondaime sealed the Kyuubi and what he used. It's explained quite clearly in the data books.
1: The Yondaime used the Shiki Fuujin to summon the Shinigami and take the Kyuubi's soul.

Shiki Fuujin (Corpse Demon Consuming Seal, 屍鬼封尽)
Fuuin Jutsu; offensive; close range (0-5m); S-rank
Users: Yondaime Hokage*, Sandaime Hokage

"Giving up one's own life to the God of Death, one can seal the soul of one's sworn enemy forever!!"

This ultimate Fuuin jutsu can, by sacrificing one's own life, seal the target's soul for all eternity. Once, the Yondaime Hokage used this jutsu to seal the Kyuubi no Youko, loosing his own life. For those who've seen this shape, no jutsu exists to allow them to escape Hades~~

Dressed in white clothing, the grotesque Shinigami appears...!! Only when the Shinobi has invoked the jutsu, can this figure be recognized.

On the arm of the Shinigami which holds the rosary surfaces a Juin. This arm penetrates the Jutsusha's body, and pulls the target's soul out.

The soul of the person, possessed by the Shinigami, is eaten, and faces a Fate of eternal, continueous anguish.

*The Yondaime wasn't mentioned as one of the users, probably because we've never seen him use it, but the text of the entry does state it.

2: The seals used to seal the Kyuubi, were 2 Shishou Fuuin

Shishou Fuuin (Four Image Seal, 四象封印)
Fuuin Jutsu; supplementary; close range (0-5m); no rank
Users: Yondaime Hokage, Sandaime Hokage*

As the result of a Fuuin jutsu, a Fuuin-shiki (Sealing Formula) is carved into the human body, object, etc. The "Shishou Fuuin" is one of them.
This Fuuin-shiki is mainly used in case a giant enemy or evil spirit needs to be sealed. To use it, it is nessecary for the jutsusha (the user of the jutsu) to have great ability.
Also, in Naruto, two of these "Shishou Fuuin" have been carved. This is called "Hakke no Fuuin-shiki" (Sealing Method of the Eight Trigrams)

On Naruto's abdomen is the "Sealing Formula of the Kyuubi." The Yondaime Hokage performed it on the infant Naruto.

*The Sandaime wasn't mentioned as one of the users, because the first data book doesn't cover the chapters we see him use it. However, we can clearly see the seal on the Sandaime's stomach.

3: The two Shishou Fuuin together are called Hakke no Fuuin-shiki

Hakke no Fuuin-shiki (Sealing Method of the Eight Trigrams, 八卦の封印式)
Fuuin Jutsu; supplementary; close range (0-5m); no rank
Users: Yondaime Hokage, Sandaime Hokage*


The double seal that sealed the Kyuubi's immense chakra

When the Yondaime Hokage sealed the Youko in Naruto, the effect was made stronger by putting together two "Shishou Fuuin". Also, at that time, he left an opening at the space where the sealing formulas meet, seeing to it that the Youko's chakra is able to merge with Naruto's chakra.
This Fuuin-shiki, because it consists of two "Shishou Fuuin," is called "Hakke no Fuuin-shiki"

The tremendous Youko's chakra is sealed inside the small body of Naruto!!

*The Sandaime wasn't mentioned as one of the users, because the first data book doesn't cover the chapters we see him use it. However, we can clearly see the seal on the Sandaime's stomach.

[Yondaime_101]

Imagine that Yondaime fell in love with a girl (Naruto's mom) who was a Bijuu! She had the 9 tails sealed inside her. But Yondy was madly in love with her and told her that till death do us part But kept their relationship a secret (this expalins why nobody knew Naruto's origin and hated him)! Their love gave birth to Naruto with amazing Chakra (thus the possibility to contain the 9 tails). But In giving birth, her seal weakened and Kyubi found an opportunity to emerge!! This lead to the death of Naruto's mom. Before her death...She told Yondy to use Naruto as a container for the Kyubi in order to protect the village and since Naruto already had immense chakra, he would fit the bill!! Yondy was deeply sad but listened to his love. This explains how Naruto was present at the location where Yondy battled Kyubi.

Now this might lead to 2 outcomes:
1. Yondy sealed Kyubi inside Naruto via Death God and gave his life in doing so -> Yondy dead!

2. Yondy sealed Kyubi inside Naruto but used Naruto's mom as a sacrifice to death God since she was already dying. From there on, he promised to himself to catch every Jinchuriki and trap them -> Yondy alive + Akatsuki leader!

[Rampages]

No wai!! :o

Nice theory, Yondaime. Perfectly possible explanation of Naruto's origins; altough I hope the manga won't tackle this matter until the some of the more "important" secrets are revealed.(Akatsuki, Itachi/Sasuke, Tobi and Kabuto's secrets for example)

[Tamerlane]

That certainly is an interesting theory. In fact it almost sounds like the basis for a interesting fanfiction.

:amuse

[Kusachu]

heh i wrote fan fic that hints at a simmilar theory...except the woman was actually kyuubi in human form,...lol...so i guess i HAVE to like the theory. XD its not so crazy if you look at kyuubi as a kitsune instead of "evil demon" lol

[Kickmeister]

nice theory, I like the number 1 option ^^

[Kusachu]

In responce to the question about yondaime and the third: The way i see it is, Yondaime was made hokage after the war ended and was hokage for a short period of time then died when he sealed kyuubi. I figured that since the hokage is the strongest in the village, Sandaime retuned to the position by default because there was no one stronger. It isn't made clear whether Orochimaru left the village BEFORE Sandaime named Yondaime as his successor, or if Orochimaru, being pissed off at not getting the job, decided to leave the village after yondi was hokage. What we do know is, Orochimaru was pissed at Sandaime for that reason though. I think that Orochimaru had to have betrayed konoha by then (or even at the same time kyuubi attacked the village), and as we know, Jiraiya left in search of Orochimaru and it is likely that Tsunade had quit being a ninja by that point. Plus, with a threat as big as Orochimaru, Sandaime probably returned to the possition out of giult or something for not killing him when he had the chance. anyway i hope that made sense because i am pretty sleepy right now...XP

[The Boff]

well that proves its there and the anime took it from the manga, but in the anime its the person holding naruto has a red blouse
which gives a look that its most likely a womens top, but remevering it youreally cant say, and you really cant make any assumptions
about narutos mother from this alone.


dude, watch it again. its the hokage outfit.

[Yondaime_101]

Fellows!! I swear to god that before I posted the crazy theory aboout Yondaime being naruto's father and naruto's mom being the 9 tail; I DID NOT come into possession of this! Check out this link and tell me what you think about it!! KUSACHU , I think that was your theory! Well this can explain A LOT OF THINGS!!!!

http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/f/fo/fox_spirit.html

[Kusachu]

http://www.comnet.ca/~foxtrot/kitsune/


that site has a lot of info on kitsune, and a lot of links, but the author says that some of the info might be iffy and is open to speculation. I think it links to an acrobat copy of the book Kitsune too...but i am too lazy to look through it and see. Well, there are some other sites with pretty good info on kitsune and the like too, I'll have to look through my faves an see if i can find them. If i do I'll put them up.

[The Boff]

lol

kyuubi = Narutos mom?????
bad choice of voiceactor then....

lol

[Kusachu]

lol

kyuubi = Narutos mom?????
bad choice of voiceactor then....

lol


lol well i was going for HE took a female form...you know, like naruto does...but yeah lolololol kitsune take 3 forms: beautiful woman, young girl, and an old man...(or a boy in the case of naruto, since children of kitsune are kitsune themselves) lol i don't really see it happening in the story but it is fun to play around with. XD

[glasskatana]

:offtopic Well, in all the myths the kyuubi took the form of a beautiful women. But kishi already took that into consideration when he was making Naruto. And he has already incorporated this myth into his story. Sexy no jutsu and Harem no jutsu.

[Reui]

I know this has nothing to do with naruto's parents as much as Yodaime's Anyone think Jiraiya and Tsunade are Yodaime's parents and vice versa Naruto's Grandparents?

Support:

Looks: Naruto and Yodaime both share similar appearances with Jiraiya, AND Tsunades Brother. Is this coincidence? why would Kishi purposefully show us a character who almost looks IDENTICAL to naruto if not to give us the ability to determine that Tsunade and Naruto are some how linked.

Talent: Yodaime and Naruto both posses indescribable Chakra Control and Stamina, its as though they both have the Control of Tsunade with the Power of Jiraiya. You could say Naruto's chakra control isnt very good but id argue its pretty damn good controling Kyuubi Chakra.

Names: There are very few Heros in Naruto who are not given last names, This occurs all the time with Enemies but with Heroes it doesnt. List of the most common : Sai (They dont wanna give away his Family Line and his name is made up anyways) Jiraiya/Tsunade, the 3rd and Yodaime. it seems very coincidental that Jiraiya's Tsunades and Yodaimes last names are never revealed, Could it maybe be because there Uzemaki?

Sentimental Feelings: Jiraiya's meeting Naruto was no fluke, theres no way a loser like Ebisu could randomly sneak up on a Sannin like that and catch him off guard that seemed more planned then anything. It was too coincidental that just as Naruto needed a new sensei that Jiraiya came out of hiding?

Tsunade's treatment of naruto is also a bit weird, even though he saved her life that wouldnt be enough to give him free range in his current circumstances. Tsunade Forcefully believes that naruto's life should not be restricted at all almost like a Grandmother throwing away rationality. When they first meet she treats him like a punk maybe she didnt know he existed, its almost like she does a 180 on him from when they first meet til the fight with Orochimaru and Kabuto. Also during this fight she mentions the two people she loved and lost and how badly distraught she was, one of those i believe was Yodaime, everyone loved the Hokage im sure but this seemed deeper like a parent losing a child if to compare it to the death of a sibling. And in the fight with Orochimaru she overcomes a fear of blood, its assumed she gains strength from seeing naruto fight against all odds, what if its more, what if its to protect him at all costs that she'd use a dangerous Kinjutsu?

[Kusachu]

I know this has nothing to do with naruto's parents as much as Yodaime's Anyone think Jiraiya and Tsunade are Yodaime's parents and vice versa Naruto's Grandparents?

Support:

Looks: Naruto and Yodaime both share similar appearances with Jiraiya, AND Tsunades Brother. Is this coincidence? why would Kishi purposefully show us a character who almost looks IDENTICAL to naruto if not to give us the ability to determine that Tsunade and Naruto are some how linked.

Talent: Yodaime and Naruto both posses indescribable Chakra Control and Stamina, its as though they both have the Control of Tsunade with the Power of Jiraiya. You could say Naruto's chakra control isnt very good but id argue its pretty damn good controling Kyuubi Chakra.

Names: There are very few Heros in Naruto who are not given last names, This occurs all the time with Enemies but with Heroes it doesnt. List of the most common : Sai (They dont wanna give away his Family Line and his name is made up anyways) Jiraiya/Tsunade, the 3rd and Yodaime. it seems very coincidental that Jiraiya's Tsunades and Yodaimes last names are never revealed, Could it maybe be because there Uzemaki?

Sentimental Feelings: Jiraiya's meeting Naruto was no fluke, theres no way a loser like Ebisu could randomly sneak up on a Sannin like that and catch him off guard that seemed more planned then anything. It was too coincidental that just as Naruto needed a new sensei that Jiraiya came out of hiding?

Tsunade's treatment of naruto is also a bit weird, even though he saved her life that wouldnt be enough to give him free range in his current circumstances. Tsunade Forcefully believes that naruto's life should not be restricted at all almost like a Grandmother throwing away rationality. When they first meet she treats him like a punk maybe she didnt know he existed, its almost like she does a 180 on him from when they first meet til the fight with Orochimaru and Kabuto. Also during this fight she mentions the two people she loved and lost and how badly distraught she was, one of those i believe was Yodaime, everyone loved the Hokage im sure but this seemed deeper like a parent losing a child if to compare it to the death of a sibling. And in the fight with Orochimaru she overcomes a fear of blood, its assumed she gains strength from seeing naruto fight against all odds, what if its more, what if its to protect him at all costs that she'd use a dangerous Kinjutsu?


Nah, it is a good supposition, but i just can't see it. I think yondi is an orphan. Jiraiya is just sentimental about yondi and it is carried over to naruto. but then who knows?? Kishimoto likes to surprize us!

[glasskatana]

ahem. I find your theory highly improbable. LIKE TREMENDOUSLY IMPROBABLE. but who am I to say. I've come up with some INCREDIBLY messed up theories myself. But you do have a flaw in your info. The two people who Tsunade lost and loved are her little brother and her boyfriend. Reread the chapters, its very obvious.

[Kusachu]

yeah plus tsunade and jiraiya don't really like each other all that much...at least, as far as I've seen, but that's a matter of opinion. Besides what kind of an @$$hole would Jiraiya be if he left his grandson in konoha all that time while he spied on Orochimaru...and what kind of Biotch would Tsunade be??

and Naruto's chakra control isn't all that great. Both Sasuke and Sakura (especially) have better chakra control than Naruto.

[Reui]

Sasuke and Naruto dont have a 9 tailed Fox Demon sealed inside them to mess with there chakra control either.

I did look through the chapter and it is never refered to as Tsunades Boy friend from anywhere ive seen translated, only of a picture of a man that looks suprisingly like Naruto and Yodaime, and would probably be identical to yodaime if his hair were spiked up and he was a bit taller implying it may be a younger Yodaime, you would have to assume for it not to be yodaime that Tsunade would not picture him at a younger age which would be crazy because most mothers keep a mental image of there child at a younger age.

And how do you explain Tsunades brothers appearance? In chapter 168 They line up his and Naruto's face side by side and if you remove the whisker marks there IDENTICAL.

The abandonment issue is a flaw i guess in some ways. I dont think Tsunade knew he existed, i think when Yodaime died she went into hiding to escape the grief of Konoha. and Jiraiya, i think he was always watching over naruto as he grew up. How else would he be able to pick the exact moment to find Naruto just as he was in need of training?

Edit: and we also do not know that Jiraiya and Tsunade hate eachother, they dont seem to have anything against one another in the manga at present time and both seem concerned about Naruto. And to further the point after Jiraiya was drugged he still went after Tsunade to try and save her.

Also come to think about it Jiraiya may not have abandoned naruto, you have to remember for 12 some years Naruto was never confronted by Akatsukai, they could have easily taken the Bijuu from him at a young age, what if Jiraiya was protecting him from behind the scenes? That would explain Itachi's comment when he sees Jiraiya, "So thats how they know about akatsukai."

[Kusachu]

Sasuke and Naruto dont have a 9 tailed Fox Demon sealed inside them to mess with there chakra control either.

I did look through the chapter and it is never refered to as Tsunades Boy friend from anywhere ive seen translated, only of a picture of a man that looks suprisingly like Naruto and Yodaime, and would probably be identical to yodaime if his hair were spiked up and he was a bit taller implying it may be a younger Yodaime, you would have to assume for it not to be yodaime that Tsunade would not picture him at a younger age which would be crazy because most mothers keep a mental image of there child at a younger age.

And how do you explain Tsunades brothers appearance? In chapter 168 They line up his and Naruto's face side by side and if you remove the whisker marks there IDENTICAL.

The abandonment issue is a flaw i guess in some ways. I dont think Tsunade knew he existed, i think when Yodaime died she went into hiding to escape the grief of Konoha. and Jiraiya, i think he was always watching over naruto as he grew up. How else would he be able to pick the exact moment to find Naruto just as he was in need of training?


Tsunade's boyfriend's name is Dan and they show a lot of him in the anime.  He has white hair.  Her little brother has brown hair and ruddy cheeks he looks a lot like naruto in the manga, but not so much in the anime. Tsunade's fear of blood comes from her not being able to stop Dan from bleeding to death on a mission (she was covered in his blood.)  That's why she quit being a ninja, because she felt like she couldn't save anyone. 

Jiraiya was in konoha that time because he was following Orochimaru.  He knew orochimaru was there, but for some reason didn't want Sandaime to know he (jiraiya) was there.

[glasskatana]

He also appears a lot in the manga, and his name is metioned. So yeah, he is DEFINITELY NOT YONDAIME. basically everything Kusachu said is right,

[white silver]

And how do you explain Tsunades brothers appearance? In chapter 168 They line up his and Naruto's face side by side and if you remove the whisker marks there IDENTICAL.



[font=tahoma][color=green]Right, change the eyes and hair color of Obito add a few whiskers, ta da, you have NARUTO!

Anyways, I find your post interesting but nevertheless voidable!  I have a posted a theory (I forgot where) on how Tsunade is the mother Kabuto:

1.  Kabuto (remove the glasses and straighten his hair) you get Dan! (Tsunade's lover)

2.  Kabuto's medic skills are somewhat the sort of "inheritance" since he posses great medical ability at such a young age.

3.  Kabuto was found at the "Bellflower Pass", if you research the details about Bellflower you'll noticed that a certain somebody named "DANE" was killed and it was her blood that made the bellflower blossom.  Dane/Dan, get it?

4.  Tsunade is Type A, Dan is Type B, Kabuto is AB!

5.  Link the bloodtype, bellflower pass, looks, and medical abilities.

Does this prove that Kabuto is her son?  Most probably NOT!  One must have very concrete evidence in order for your statments to stand on ground.  Like the ones I mentioned, all of them are just "chances/coincedences"!

Note:  The theory on Kabuto's Mother is on Naruto Toshokan (I have no idea which page) but I started that topic, and to make one thing sure, I didn't "make" that theory!

[Reloaded]

thats quite a good theory

[C4animax]

Another small point that I hope doesn't get labelled off-topic, because it was something I was trying to convey in one of my earlier posts, is the nature of 'anime filler.' Yes, the original manga author Kishimoto-sensei has no creative input in the anime. Yes, this means that many scenes from the anime don't correspond to the original author's worldview and are irrelevant when discussing manga plotpoints. However, there is a difference between outright filler episodes (the recent year-long run in the anime) and filler scenes that appear embedded within actual storyline episodes. The animators have to take creative license often in order to flesh out scenes that are too brief or not well explicated in the manga. In my opinion, most of these 'filler' scenes are just making various fight sequences longer, which really has no bearing on plot debates (like this one).

That was my point in saying 'don't dismiss the anime.' In certain scenes like the Shodai/Nidaime/Sarutobi flashback, there is technically filler in that the manga does not explicitly show the three together simultaneously. However, to dismiss this as anime filler, I think, is too harsh, since it's mostly a question of angling and 'camera' shot (even though it's anime). That's why I have no problem referring to the anime in certain instances in order to support a view that I have from the manga.

The inverse is also true - the final clash between Naruto and Sasuke in the Valley of the End has certain aspects that appear more evident in the manga than the anime. Sasuke's Sharingan being able to predict the movement of Naruto with excess Kyuubi chakra is better explained in the manga. Naruto's intent in attacking Sasuke's hitai-ate during the last Rasengan-Chidori clash is more evident, etc. And to forestall the counterargument, yes, the way the fight proceeds in the anime is different than in the manga. However, the changes are hardly going to matter in the grand scheme of the universe in Naruto. It's still 'filler sequences,' but I hardly expect anyone to use them in debating manga plotpoints.


I love you! Completly agree, some scenes are longer to make it coherent.

As for the two hokage telling sandaime that he'll be hokage tomorrow... It looks like to be a speech of the will of the two previous hokage, they are not old because they were never old anyway and sarutobi seems too youngs, they've choosen him but that doesn't mean that tomorrow means the following day.


For yondaime, maybe he used kagebushin to create that seal that people are talking about then transformed himself into a seal that would give you the double seak ;)...




[b][font=tahoma][color=green]Right, change the eyes and hair color of Obito add a few whiskers, ta da, you have NARUTO!

Hey that's mine! Your yopic is down the tokoshan i think page 2...

[white silver]

[font=tahoma][color=green]YONDAIME!  Hmmm.. I have come up with an interesting theory on WHY Naruto would have the seal and NOT the Yondaime, I can only think of ONE possible reason.  *ahem*

The seal:

Let's take witness to the version of Sandaime, as you know, when the soul was embedded into the belly of the user, the user had the seal (similar) to Naruto, thus the soul inside the user's body, so when the Shinigami takes the summoner's soul, he also takes the "stolen" soul as well!

ex: enemy's soul >-----Summoner with enemy's soul >----Shinigami 

*>------ "Takes the soul"*

Note: Since a Kage Bunshin is part of the User, they cannot be counted as a different person performing seal, don't forget, the MAIN person's soul is already anchored by the hand of the Shinigami, any other Kage bunshins are just "routers" or links.

Naruto's Seal:

Now for the answer, BECAUSE Naruto IS NOT A KAGE BUNSHIN, it's destroys a "rule" that the soul of the enemy is not embedded on the summoner but rather on another foriegn person/object (I will explain that "rule" in the next section).  Because of this I can only speculate this is the main reason why Yondaime's soul is only taken and not the Kyubi.  But the real question is, how and WHY does Naruto have the seal (if he was not the one summoning). Here's why:

[b][color=green][font=tahoma]The "by-pass" method/rule breaking:

Like I mentioned before earlier, I can only think of one explanation for the seal, Yondaime PUT NARUTO IN FRONT OF HIM!  The Shinigami passed through Yondaime, then Naruto and into the Kyubi, so if I put it in Graphs:

Kyubi >----- Naruto with Kyubi's soul >----- Yondaime souless >------ Shinigami cannot pull Naruto's soul

As for the "rule", (I will try my best to explain in this part), Shinigami ONLY pulls the soul to another person (the user, in this case Naruto), now because NARUTO was NOT part of the stealing soul routine, the Shinigami IS NOT ALLOWED to pull his soul, so the only other choice is to "leave" the Kyubi's soul, IN HIM!  Thus only Yondaime's soul was entered into the Shinigami, but that takes time, knowing that Naruto is already a "container" for such a dangerous creature  (with that amount of chakra, Naruto would explode), thus he added more seals in order for Naruto to "utilize" the Kyubi's chakra AND contain it.

[b][font=tahoma][color=green]
Whew, that's what I think, any other comments??

[Kusachu]

I have a theory that Obito's mom and Kakashi's dad got it on and so Obito and Kakashi are actually half brothers....(see, cuz Obito's mom was Uchiha and she obviously wasn't married to Kakashi's dad so that makes Obito a bastard Uchiha)   mwahahahahahahahahahaha!  the likeliness of it occuring is about .05% but heck!  it IS posible!  For that matter, Kabuto being the lost son of Tsunade and Dan is possible too! ( That's a nce theory BTW)  XD About as likely as any other theory i guess.  Theories are fun! XD  

My attempt to be on topic:  So, who thinks that Yondaime is really The Leader??  I for one do not, but heck, if he was i would be happy.  


And @ akect:  One thing i noticed about the anime that was "included" that made a BIG difference in the story is when sasuke tells naruto that his eyes can tell which of him is the real naruto from his kagebunshin, when kakashi has said that kagebunshin cannot be distinguished from the original.  That was because they all share the exact same chakra pattern, which is what sharingan is seeing.  has anyone else noticed that??  or is my memory just all scrambled??  

[glasskatana]

[font=tahoma][color=green]YONDAIME! Hmmm.. I have come up with an interesting theory on WHY Naruto would have the seal and NOT the Yondaime, I can only think of ONE possible reason. *ahem*

The seal:

Let's take witness to the version of Sandaime, as you know, when the soul was embedded into the belly of the user, the user had the seal (similar) to Naruto, thus the soul inside the user's body, so when the Shinigami takes the summoner's soul, he also takes the "stolen" soul as well!

ex: enemy's soul >-----Summoner with enemy's soul >----Shinigami

*>------ "Takes the soul"*

Note: Since a Kage Bunshin is part of the User, they cannot be counted as a different person performing seal, don't forget, the MAIN person's soul is already anchored by the hand of the Shinigami, any other Kage bunshins are just "routers" or links.

Naruto's Seal:

Now for the answer, BECAUSE Naruto IS NOT A KAGE BUNSHIN, it's destroys a "rule" that the soul of the enemy is not embedded on the summoner but rather on another foriegn person/object (I will explain that "rule" in the next section). Because of this I can only speculate this is the main reason why Yondaime's soul is only taken and not the Kyubi. But the real question is, how and WHY does Naruto have the seal (if he was not the one summoning). Here's why:

[b][color=green][font=tahoma]The "by-pass" method/rule breaking:

Like I mentioned before earlier, I can only think of one explanation for the seal, Yondaime PUT NARUTO IN FRONT OF HIM! The Shinigami passed through Yondaime, then Naruto and into the Kyubi, so if I put it in Graphs:

Kyubi >----- Naruto with Kyubi's soul >----- Yondaime souless >------ Shinigami cannot pull Naruto's soul

As for the "rule", (I will try my best to explain in this part), Shinigami ONLY pulls the soul to another person (the user, in this case Naruto), now because NARUTO was NOT part of the stealing soul routine, the Shinigami IS NOT ALLOWED to pull his soul, so the only other choice is to "leave" the Kyubi's soul, IN HIM! Thus only Yondaime's soul was entered into the Shinigami, but that takes time, knowing that Naruto is already a "container" for such a dangerous creature (with that amount of chakra, Naruto would explode), thus he added more seals in order for Naruto to "utilize" the Kyubi's chakra AND contain it.

[b][font=tahoma][color=green]
Whew, that's what I think, any other comments??



I made the exact same theory, Like exact exact, a while ago on some other thread. I completely agree. Except he might have put the seals on Naruto before he did fuuin jutsu, as it seems that after summoning the death god you, and anyone you attach to, are completely incapable of doing jutsu.

[shelltoes]

I agree that's how it happened. It was a chain process, Yondaime's Kage Bunshin was anchored to Shinigami who reached through Yondaime and Naruto into the Kyuubi, pulling the Kyuubi into Naruto. This still doesn't explain why Yondaime died, since it was a Bunshin and soulless, my best guess is chakra. You could imagine it took him a while to come up with this plan, and the Kyuubi attack wasn't a planned one, so he was the leader in the attack against the Kyuubi. Kage Bunshin no Jutsu would split his chakra, we still don't know how much were used during the duration of the fight ( my guess is that he used Tajuu, which will be explained in a later theory ), followed by a Summoning the Shinigami. I doubt he used it in the beginning of the fight, because as stated before; this was not a planned attack, and I doubt that would be his first option if it was.

Also, he had to weaken the Kyuubi first, it's said that one stroke of the Kyuubi's tail can bring a Mountain down, so you can imagine that the Kyuubi would be able to pull itself from the Shiki Fuuin as Orochimaru did, and seeing as Orochimaru is not as powerful as a Four Tailed Naruto, and Orochimaru was pretty weak in the fight with Sandaime at that Point ( I think. ) The Kyuubi had to be pretty beaten by the time he used it. Come to think of it, maybe Yondaime was a evil genius, maybe they already had the Kyuubi defeated, he just wanted to creat a uber-Jinchuuriki. XD

Anyway, I believe that the sealing process involved Kage Bunshin, and the Kage Bunshin sealing process is what led to Kage Bunshin becoming Kinjutsu. Most likely, Yondaime used Tajuu Kage Bunshin no Jutsu since this is the real Kinjutsu variation of the original since it creates so much clones. Tajuu would probably kill a normal man that is one; low on chakra, or, two; has bad chakra control. Naruto can do it all willy nilly since he has the Kyuubi chakra to rely on, if he didn't, he would be a very dead person due to chakra depletion. Think about it, mostly every Jounin and genius knew it during Kakashi Gaiden, before Yondaime took his spot as Yondaime. This is how I see the Kage Bunshin deal:

Yondaime becomes Yondaime Hokage of Konoha

Yondaime fights Kyuubi, sealing it in Naruto using Kage Bunshin and Shiki Fuuin, killing himself in the process.

Sarutobi retakes his spot as Sandaime, noticing the danger in both Shiki Fuuin and Kage Bunshin, making them both forbidden techniques.

Now let's look at the facts. Every Jounin that's above thirty ( if they're geniuses, mid-twenties ) most likely knows Kage Bunshin. This includes; Kakashi, Ebisu, Sandaime, Yondaime, the Iwa-Nin they ran into during the war. Kage Bunshin was basically a normal thing, but it didn't come to notice how dangerous it was until Yondaime used it during his Sealing stunt.

Now, here's another variation of the whole theory, warning, it's pretty farfetched and just came to me at this very moment:
Tajuu Kage Bunshin would naturally split a small portion of his chakra amongst his Bunshin, which would naturally lead to his death later after he seals the Kyuubi in Naruto. Since Yondaime was so low on chakra, he performed Shiki Fuuin with a Kage Bunshin behind him holding Naruto. The Shinigami reaches through the Kage Bunshin, since it has no "soul" it reaches forward into Naruto, since he is not the one who summoned him, he goes through Naruto into Yondaime himself. The Shinigami reaches forth, grabs into the Kyuubi's soul, pulling it into Yondaime, once it's pulled into Yondaime, it's pulled into Naruto, and since he cannot take Naruto's soul, he leaves the souls there along with the seal. This could probably be the reason why Naruto at times "seems" like Yondaime and reminds Jiraiya of him.

Does this mean that Naruto has the Yondaime's chakra? Not true. It seems that the Jutsu takes the opponents Body and Soul, and leaves the User's body and takes his soul, this is why Naruto has the Kyuubi's chakra, because through Shiki Fuuin, he took in the Body and Soul which were sealed away. If Naruto didn't have everything in him, then where's the Kyuubi's body? And Sandaime never lost his body to the Shinigami, the Shinigami left his body and took his soul. Then again, I could be wrong. XD

As for Yondaime being the Leader, I don't believe it. That would be a crappy twist. "Well, I've been hiding for the last thirteen years, creating an organization that steal Jinchuuriki. Surprise. =D" No. Doesn't work. I also doubt that Kishimoto would pull a Darth Vader/ Luke Skywalker thing and say that Yondaime was actually Naruto's father. You're telling me Naruto's been alive for fourteen plus years and no one's ever brought up, "well, your dad was Yondaime." No. Doesn't work. Naruto and Yondaime are not related in my book. What I do believe is that Yondaime will gain more importance than the Hokage that sealed the Bijuu before the series ends.

[white silver]

[b][font=tahoma][color=green]First of all, when you sign a contract, it is only YOU that should perform the jutsu, even if it's a Kage-bunshin, the chakra is related to you so even if he did use the Kage bunshin, the deal was to exchange his soul, if that was so easy for a loophole Sandaime would have done himself! One other point shows that the Kage-bunshin is Incapable of performing the Shiki Fuujin for two reasons:

1. Only 1/10 amount of the chakra to the original user.
2. Shiki Fuujin only passes through the original user regardless which Kage-bunshin performs it

[shelltoes]

I advise you go back and read the fight Orochimaru and Sandaime had. Orochimaru asked himself why he wasn't using Kage Bunshin. Ultimately, Sandaime was past his prime.

In short, if there is a loophole, Sarutobi was too old and couldn't act upon it. The point of him using Shiki Fuuin was to kill Orochimaru, since he didn't do it years before, and this time it would cost him his life.

As for the Kage Bunshin, it MATTERS how much Bunshin are used. It divides it amongst the clones. That's why Tajuu are usually low on chakra, and go for quantity over quality, it's really a pointless move unless up against something as large as the Kyuubi, understand? I don't even know why I'm explaining this, because my theory has nothing to do with a Kage Bunshin summoning the Shinigami. The first one I state has to deal with what I heard, and what is possible. The second theory is actually mine, and Yondaime uses the Shiki Fuuin in that one.

[billion bruce lees]

[b][font=tahoma][color=green]First of all, when you sign a contract, it is only YOU that should perform the jutsu, even if it's a Kage-bunshin, the chakra is related to you so even if he did use the Kage bunshin, the deal was to exchange his soul, if that was so easy for a loophole Sandaime would have done himself! One other point shows that the Kage-bunshin is Incapable of performing the Shiki Fuujin for two reasons:

1. Only 1/10 amount of the chakra to the original user.
2. Shiki Fuujin only passes through the original user regardless which Kage-bunshin performs it

kagebunshin splits the users chakra equally among the clones and user. thats why sharingan, byakugan can't tell them apart.

[white silver]

[b][font=tahoma][color=green]Correction, Sharingan DOES tell them apart!

[glasskatana]

[b][font=tahoma][color=green]Correction, Sharingan DOES tell them apart!

in the anime I've heard it does say that (but I will never listen to arguments that involve the anime, only manga) , however i'm almost positive that it is explained in the manga that doujutsu cannot tell kage bunshins apart. And if it doesn't specifically say that, then I'm 99.999% positive it NEVER says it CAN tell them apart.

[Kusachu]

[b][font=tahoma][color=green]Correction, Sharingan DOES tell them apart!


it only says that in the anime (when sasuke says it to Naruto) but i don't recall ever seeing it in the manga...and Kakashi even said that you couldn't tell because it was a real body and they all have the same chakra pattern and the 'real' one.

[glasskatana]

it only says that in the anime (when sasuke says it to Naruto) but i don't recall ever seeing it in the manga...and Kakashi even said that you couldn't tell because it was a real body and they all have the same chakra pattern and the 'real' one.

which is why I never trust the anime. I mean, a lot of Naruto's strategy comes from tricking people with kage bunshin. If sharingan can see through it, a lot of things change.

[Kusachu]

which is why I never trust the anime. I mean, a lot of Naruto's strategy comes from tricking people with kage bunshin. If sharingan can see through it, a lot of things change.


yeah i know. I think they just used that to make Sasuke look cooler than he was in the "fight" arc. XD

But, on topic: I have seen a few fanfictions that say yondaime's 'family' name is Kaazama and i know there is no basis for this, but i was just wondering if anyone had any idea WHY this name has become a "popular" name for him. I pesonally don't really like it...does it mean something cool or something? *confused*

[white silver]

yeah i know.  I think they just used that to make Sasuke look cooler than he was in the "fight" arc.  XD

But, on topic:  I have seen a few fanfictions that say yondaime's 'family' name is Kaazama and i know there is no basis for this, but i was just wondering if anyone had any idea WHY this name has become a "popular" name for him.  I pesonally don't really like it...does it mean something cool or something?  *confused*


[b][font=tahoma][color=green]They're probably going to find every cool name imaginable for Yondaime!

[The Boff]

yeah i know.  I think they just used that to make Sasuke look cooler than he was in the "fight" arc.  XD

But, on topic:  I have seen a few fanfictions that say yondaime's 'family' name is Kaazama and i know there is no basis for this, but i was just wondering if anyone had any idea WHY this name has become a "popular" name for him.  I pesonally don't really like it...does it mean something cool or something?  *confused*


jin kazama is one of the most kickass characters in tekken.. thats all i know

[white silver]

[b][font=tahoma][color=green]Anyone back for "Arashi"?

[billion bruce lees]

yeah i know. I think they just used that to make Sasuke look cooler than he was in the "fight" arc. XD

But, on topic: I have seen a few fanfictions that say yondaime's 'family' name is Kaazama and i know there is no basis for this, but i was just wondering if anyone had any idea WHY this name has become a "popular" name for him. I pesonally don't really like it...does it mean something cool or something? *confused*
like jin kazama from the tekken game series, kazama was to mean, fatal lightning

and yeah he was total kickass

[shelltoes]

Fatal Lightning doesn't fit him. Yondaime may be a dangerous man if provoked, but what we've seen of him, he's very nice. Plus, Kishimoto isn't big in name puns, half of his characters have them, and half of them don't. I mean, Uzumaki Naruto? It has nothing to do with the Kyuubi or his character.

[The Boff]

naruto is a piece used in some kind of ramen if im not mistaken.

and another one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naruto_whirlpool
rasengan anyone?

[billion bruce lees]

Fatal Lightning doesn't fit him. Yondaime may be a dangerous man if provoked, but what we've seen of him, he's very nice. Plus, Kishimoto isn't big in name puns, half of his characters have them, and half of them don't. I mean, Uzumaki Naruto? It has nothing to do with the Kyuubi or his character.
those uzimaki circles( spirals ) that you see naruto wear warn of dark power

i believe that there is a dark movie called uzumaki

[Kusachu]

naruto is a piece used in some kind of ramen if im not mistaken.

and another one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naruto_whirlpool
rasengan anyone?


it is a fishcake that is often dried (like a wafer) and comes in cup ramen. I have seen it as a kind of log though too, like cookie dough. it has a spiral in it like the cookies that you just slice and there is a picture in the middle...

Oh yeah, and i tried to reply earlier about kaazama and i was all like "woah thanks! i never played tekken so i would never have known! i am a soul caliber girl...mmm...mitsurugi...." but yeah. it ate my post and i became sad. XP

i don't think the name Kaazama fits with Yondi kun either. XP i do think Arashi/storm is a cool given name though (and there is a basis for it, sorta, i guess). It works even better if you consider naruto as meaning 'maelstrom' or whatever...i don't know if its true that naruto means that though because i don't know the language well. Um, but i don't think his name is arashi either because of the filler ep guy having that name XP damn it.

i happen to think that Rasen would be a fitting family name though, since rasen means curve/spiral and he DID create Rasengan (the 'gan' part can be translated as 'gun' though only phonetically i think...i can't read the kanji for the proper spelling of it...XP)
I just like the way Rasen Arashi rolls off the tongue...lol...i highly doubt if his name is anything like that though XP I just want to know his name!!! T-T I am positive that it isn't Uzumaki though. people would never have treated naruto like that if they had the same name IMHO. IDK...XP

[billion bruce lees]

people can surprise though. thier base level take over alot

[glasskatana]

What is the relationship between Naruto and Yondaime? I started this poll to find out my favorite Naruto community's thoughts on this hot topic. I've put up all the theories I can think of, but if there's one I missed please tell me. Go ahead vote away.

[rykarreolacr]

I chose the Father->Son theory.
It's the most obvious one.
A reicarnation theory don't appeal much to me and would mean that Naruto is good only because he is Yondaime.
Also Naruto was already born when Yondaime died, so it's ridiculous.

[_ATMA]

im witht the father son idea...... also if u look at them they have alot of the same featuers and look alot a like lol first off....
the hair and eyes both the same... naruto's hair is slightly shorter but it practly (grows?) the same way? lol....and one of the reasons Jiraiya took in naruto was beacuse he was practicly the same person and had alot of the same qualities. if im not mistaken?..... alot of kids who's fathers die before they really know them end up growing up the same way and end up like their father without even realizeing it



^EDIT^

found an interesting avatar that would make a funny concept
http://naruto-team.fr-bb.com/users/44/09/59/avatars/1-4.jpg

[Kusachu]

um...can i pick more than one?

[Adam_xx]

Father son theory being my choice.. x3

[Remus]

...dead and Narutos dad or he is a super villain aka Akatsuki Leader.

And lets hope he is his dad since I want to know where he got his talent from.
And a hero without a normal family is just no hero so let us know something about his past except that he was hated.

[C4animax]

I don't know for the dad, i mean they wouldn't keep the secret would they? Since i'm not too sure about the dad thing (that would make sense knowig how hard kishimoto likes dbz and stuff. meaning : dad strong => kids super strong) i would say that naruto absorbed yondaime's power (too late to vote something else -_-' ) but what i would love to see is that yondaime is sealed inside naruto.

[redmedoc]

Father of Naruto of course : Same hair and why he would seal Kyubi in an other boy who isn't related to him

[venicia777]

um...can i pick more than one? 
i want to pick more than one too But whatever it is, i wouldnt be shocked if it was narutos relative or something. but as we have seen from gaara, where a non relative like chiyo baa sealed shukaku inside him, it could also be that naruto isnt related to Yondaime at all.

But damn, their haircolor alone- hmm!!!

[Kusachu]

i want to pick more than one too But whatever it is, i wouldnt be shocked if it was narutos relative or something. but as we have seen from gaara, where a non relative like chiyo baa sealed shukaku inside him, it could also be that naruto isnt related to Yondaime at all.

But damn, their haircolor alone- hmm!!!


Yeah but Shukaku was put into Gaara while he was still in the womb i thought.  Since he said he killed his mother right after he was born...like first thing.

Naruto's mother was quite literally never in the picture... :eyeroll

[Kaku]

i am father -> son supporter as well

in the end naruto deserves a father like him

[Kusachu]

LOL well, for the sake of drama, i think Naruto is the bastard son of Yondaime. I refuse to believe that they share the same family name. Naruto wouldn't be treated like he was if people knew he was the son of the Legendary Hero. But why cover it up? Well, that's easy. Something shady must have gone down. I find it funny how vertuous everyone assumes Yondaime was. IMO i think he has the darkest secrets. We may never actually know, but it is fun to imagine! XD lol

[_ATMA]

maybe yoni just had a kid secretly that no one really knew about and in the proccess of giving birth to the child the mother died... since he was just a newly born he used that as an opertunity and just no one realizes that naruto his the son of yoni lol

[glasskatana]

Oh yeah, I've heard some theories about him being the leader of Akatsuki som I'll put that up there, wait before I do, can someone tell me if at the moment they have the ability to remove their vote.

[jabbament]

Volume 1, Chapter 2, Page 13&14:

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/6862/naruto2131yx.th.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=naruto2131yx.jpg)
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/8622/naruto2147ur.th.jpg (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=naruto2147ur.jpg)

So, considering he wanted Naruto to be a hero, he was logically either his father or his big brother. And the reason why no one knows the relationship between Yondaime and Naruto is probably because of the fact that Sandaime made it an absolute secret that the Kyuubi was sealed in Naruto, since he wanted to give Naruto a chance to grow up as a somewhat normal boy (as it was probably part of Yondaime's wish). Growing up as Yondaime's son would have changed things, and Naruto would probably have been sheltered and been completely different than the Naruto we know (and some of us love).

Also, another thing I have to wonder is how come Naruto never asked Sandime about his father? Sandaime apparently took a large place in Naruto's life when he was yonger...wouldn't you think he'd ask who his real parents were? Strikes me as odd...but Naruto is kind of dumb.


Oh yeah, I've heard some theories about him being the leader of Akatsuki
Yondaime was kick ass and all, but:

Yondaime > God of Death?

Not even for our precious Yondaime is that probable. The God of Death would probably allow himself to be summoned, considering he gets to eat not one, but two souls with that technique...and that's what he's all about. ;)

[glasskatana]

I'm not saying I believe it, but I've heard that theory.

[spice]

OK, so i was reading through some theories and was thinking why can't there be two of the theories coinciding to make just one?  You all know Kishimoto was a huge fan of DBZ right?  Well my hypothesis is something along the lines of how piccolo from DBZ was split into good and evil.  What if Naruto (good version of Yondaime) and akatsuki leader (evil version of Yondaime) were "split" from Yondaime when he sealed the kyuubi?  

Keep in mind I'm sort of thinking out loud and don't have any real evidence to support my hypothesis, but it was just a thought that came to mind that sounded somewhat plausible.

[glasskatana]

gah! I'm sto stupid, this thread is for the relationship between Naruto and Yondaime. Not ALL the theories of yondaime. So no, I'm not putting up that some people think he's an akatsuki member and I'll consider putting your idea up there spice. Even though I kinda hate DBZ now, no offense meant to anyone who's a big fan of it. be happy, so tired, hafta swim for 2 hours now. bye for a while.

[ShgnLW]

You all know my theory, that Yondaime = Naruto...

I stick with that, although I start to believe more and more that yondaime is the father of Naruto.

Neverthless, yondaime has some kind of relationship, it is not like Yondaime picked the first baby he saw :)

[glasskatana]

How about Yondaime is... HOKAGE. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I crack myself up.

[white silver]

[b][font=tahoma][color=green]You know, as much as there is about speculation between Yondaime and Naruto, I really really support the father>son relationsship! Hmmm.. let us see the similarities:

1. They both have the same hair color (don't add Ino here, because she is blonde and Naruto's is PURE YELLOW!)

2. Same eye color!

3. They have the similar characteristics (stubborn) as Jiraiya mentioned!

Note: This does not prove that Yondaime is the father of Naruto but it doesn't stop me from beliving it!

There is a Yondaime thread here somewhere and I'm pretty sure these will be um.. Merged!

[glasskatana]

[b][font=tahoma][color=green]
There is a Yondaime thread here somewhere and I'm pretty sure these will be um.. Merged!

I realize this, but unlike the other thread, this is a poll to see the Naruto community's beliefs about the Yondaime->Naruto relationship in the form of actual percentages and numbers. The other one is just a general Yondaime thread. But I too, wouldn't be surprised if for whatever reason they became fused.

[white silver]

I realize this, but unlike the other thread, this is a poll to see the Naruto community's beliefs about the Yondaime->Naruto relationship in the form of actual percentages and numbers. The other one is just a general Yondaime thread. But I too, wouldn't be surprised if for whatever reason they became fused.


[b][font=tahoma][color=green]It depends on whether the people keep talking about Yondaime and not the poll itself!

[DarkManSharingan32]

[b][font=tahoma][color=green]You know, as much as there is about speculation between Yondaime and Naruto, I really really support the father>son relationsship! Hmmm.. let us see the similarities:

1. They both have the same hair color (don't add Ino here, because she is blonde and Naruto's is PURE YELLOW!)

2. Same eye color!

3. They have the similar characteristics (stubborn) as Jiraiya mentioned!

Note: This does not prove that Yondaime is the father of Naruto but it doesn't stop me from beliving it!

There is a Yondaime thread here somewhere and I'm pretty sure these will be um.. Merged!






I hate it when people say Naruto and Yondaime act alike... and then cite that same source.
The truth is Jiraiya and Naruto are far more alike than Yondaime and Naruto.

~shrugs~

I dunno, i guess i just don't wanna by that the relationship between Yondaime and Naruto is something that easy. It seems that the longer and longer it takes, the more complicated the reason should become. Or else... we could've learned it by now....

And come on guys (for those who want Yondaime as the Akatsuki leader AND as Naruto's father)...

You need to stop watching Star Wars.... you goddamed Jedi...

[uchiha78]

I won't rule out these theories, but I have my own...I believe Naruto and Yondaime are from the same clan (Uzumaki) but not directly related. Maybe like uncle-nephew. This satisfies their likeness. Perhaps the Yondaime had an inept brother that wasn't as talented as the Yondaime and had an infant son. And to make amends in his deathbed, offered Naruto as the Kyuubi vessel. While all the Uzumakis died fighting the Kyuubi. This also would explain why Yondaime was considered a genius from the start, and Naruto, not so much. Because they don't come from the exact same gene pool. Although father-son is the most probable, it also is the most predictable, which I think makes it less likely to be true.

[_ATMA]

I won't rule out these theories, but I have my own...I believe Naruto and Yondaime are from the same clan (Uzumaki) but not directly related. Maybe like uncle-nephew. This satisfies their likeness. Perhaps the Yondaime had an inept brother that wasn't as talented as the Yondaime and had an infant son. And to make amends in his deathbed, offered Naruto as the Kyuubi vessel. While all the Uzumakis died fighting the Kyuubi. This also would explain why Yondaime was considered a genius from the start, and Naruto, not so much. Because they don't come from the exact same gene pool. Although father-son is the most probable, it also is the most predictable, which I think makes it less likely to be true.


its a plausable theorie but if he was part of a clan then dont u think they would of mentioned it? and genious, idiot has nothing to do w/ genpools the father can be an idiot and have a genious son and the father could be a genious and the sun an idiot, but i think part of the reason naruto is sorta "stupid" is beacuse he grew up allways looking for attention so he goofed off the whole time. if yondi was around to father naruto dont u think he would of grown up much more supiror?

[uchiha78]

I see your point _ATMA. While I think environment affects personality the greatest, I'm assuming genes do too at least to some degree. It's like some children end up having behavior patterns of their parents without ever knowing them. This poster a few pages back mentioned this, and I've read about it as well. And yes, Naruto would have been more kick-ass if raised by the Yondaime.

[white silver]

Naruto would have been more kick-ass if raised by the Yondaime.


[b][font=tahoma][color=green]Of course, but Naruto is very special. He does what he feels and not what he thinks. Because if he did, he would pull of a Gaara! I still can't get it out of my mind, was Yondaime a natural genius or did he just happened to be a genius sometime soon. I remember very clearly that Jiraiya mentioned "That's why I don't chose Geniuses like that Uchiha Kid, because that WOUUULDN'T be fun", only to be replied by Orochimaru "Because that id reminds about you!" So, I think Yondaime was kinda above average but still "normal" that became "genius". And I think Naruto would be the same!

[uchiha78]

[b][font=tahoma][color=green]Of course, but Naruto is very special.  He does what he feels and not what he thinks.  Because if he did, he would pull of a Gaara!  I still can't get it out of my mind, was Yondaime a natural genius or did he just happened to be a genius sometime soon.  I remember very clearly that Jiraiya mentioned "That's why I don't chose Geniuses like that Uchiha Kid, because that WOUUULDN'T be fun", only to be replied by Orochimaru "Because that id reminds about you!"  So, I think Yondaime was kinda above average but still "normal" that became "genius".  And I think Naruto would be the same!




I never thought of that! That means Yondaime was average at best and maybe even a dropout...interesting...

[Kusachu]

If Yondaime has ANYTHING to do with the Leader, i will shit myself. I hope the story wouldn't turn out that way. That would be THE WORD TWIST EVER! HOW EFFING AWFUL WOULD THAT BE? That would just be...lame.

[Ayah]

I voted Father->Son, but I won't mind if this doesn't happen as long as we learn Naruto's parentage. However, I can't help but be swayed to "Yondaime is sealed inside Naruto" thanks to a theory I read, created after the events of chapter... *checks the last 10 chapters* ...299. Also, no matter how cool he is, I'd rather have Yondaime dead!

[glasskatana]

do you know where we can find this theory. Maybe you can post it here.

[HexPhoenix]

for me, I guess Yondaime is father to Narto and he's also an Akatsuki leader. because, there's no strong proof he is dead, and also if it is right he's using Shinigami Summon Jutsu (used by Sandaime to defeat Oro) to seal Kyuubi in Naruto's body, he maybe using the same technique as Oro does (Oro support the chakra, Kabuto make the hand seals). Yondaime support the chakra, and other person (Naruto's mother, maybe?) make the hand seals and DIED. So Yondaime is still live, right? But for now, I know absolutely that Naruto is Yondaime's son!

[white silver]

for me, I guess Yondaime is father to Narto and he's also an Akatsuki leader. because, there's no strong proof he is dead, and also if it is right he's using Shinigami Summon Jutsu (used by Sandaime to defeat Oro) to seal Kyuubi in Naruto's body, he maybe using the same technique as Oro does (Oro support the chakra, Kabuto make the hand seals). Yondaime support the chakra, and other person (Naruto's mother, maybe?) make the hand seals and DIED. So Yondaime is still live, right? But for now, I know absolutely that Naruto is Yondaime's son!


[b][font=tahoma][color=green]Wow, your FIRST POST! First, we've already quit that "Yondaime is Akatuki leader" idea away and more of that to Shodai's Son or (the enemy statue opposite Shodai Hokage in the valley of the end)!

[glasskatana]

Yes, we have to remember that this thread is for the relationship between Naruto and Yondaime. Not just what yondaime is now. I'm wondering if I should put Big Brother->Little Brother there.

P.S at Kunai jutsu... is Pirate Jolly Silver more wanted than Vash the Stampede. ;)

[white silver]

P.S at Kunai jutsu... is Pirate Jolly Silver more wanted than Vash the Stampede. ;)


[b][font=tahoma][color=green]LOL, I actually meant (MOST WANTED PERSON) in MH! <--- Changed it already!

[Griever X]

its been in my mind lately and the more i see the fourth the more it bothers me they look almost the same and as far as ive heard act the same and they had the same teacher and well......I've been told the fourth is really nice so who elece but his own child would he sacrifice to seal the kyuubi and he did it so well that the kyuubi's chakara could be used by naruto to save his life in any given situation I think that they may just have some kind of connection....maybe

Moved to the Naruto Toshokan area ~ TL

[pjoto]

Notice how this thread's been viewed sooo many times, but noone's bothered to reply..
Not to be a bitch, but this question has be asked so many times it hurts, and there are other polls around too..
Also, try a bit more spesific name as topic for your thread?
This is a Naruto-forum, so "Naruto" would be a bit open..
Sorry if neccesarry, but thought someone should say something.

To answer your question, yes, the 4th COULD be Narutos dad, if he weren't steriliced at birth. As could Tsunade be his mother, and Orochimaru be his long lost brother, but yes, he could be Naruto's dad. But then again, maby Naruto is a Uchia? And Itachi's Naruto's dad? Maby that's why he's so interested in him? Hmm..

[asymptotic]

I just assumed the 4th picked up one orphan "to go" at the Konoha orphanage on his way to stop the kyuubi.

[CheckMate]

maybe there was an orphan from nowhere, and then he picked it up, and become the shield

[glasskatana]

yeah I already have a thread about this. It's called 'Yondaime is' or something. I hope some mod will fuse this.

[Tamerlane]

Merged this thread with the "Yondaime is" thread since they both were asking the same question.

:amuse

[VeNoM87]

I think the 4rth hokage was the father of naruto just due to the looks. Jiraiya didn't want to train a guy like Sasuke because he was a genius which learned things really fast. He also wanted to have naruto with him because he reminded him of the 4rth, so that means that he also wasn't a quick learner. (Though Naruto learned the rasengan badass fast, but not completely yet to do it with only one hand, unless in kyuubi form).

Sorry to say this but people are stupid if they think that The 4rth hokage is the akatsuki leader or is still alive because that just ain't possible. When Orochimaru was fighting the 3rd he wanted to summon the: 1st, 2nd and 4rth hokage's and implant a knife in them with a tag on it which made them on his side. At that time only the 1st and 2nd were "resurrected" but then sealed by the 3rd, thus being in the deathgods his stomach. The 4rth Hokage wasn't "resurrected". This means that there is no way in hell that he is alive since that deathcrate was sucked back in.

Of course there could be a time when the 3rd hokage will be "resurrected" by someone cuz nobody has ever done something like that. But that won't be any time soon.

So my conclusion, cut the crap about the 3rd being the leader of Akatsuki, because if you look at the facts straight, then there's just no way in hell he's the leader.
_________________________________________-
+ The akatsuki were allready there before the fight between the 3rd and Orochimari, which only make the facts more clear.

out

[LightReaper]

"Sorry to say this but people are stupid if they think that The 4rth hokage is the akatsuki leader or is still alive because that just ain't possible. When Orochimaru was fighting the 3rd he wanted to summon the: 1st, 2nd and 4rth hokage's and implant a knife in them with a tag on it which made them on his side. At that time only the 1st and 2nd were "resurrected" but then sealed by the 3rd, thus being in the deathgods his stomach. The 4rth Hokage wasn't "resurrected". This means that there is no way in hell that he is alive since that deathcrate was sucked back in."

IIRC, the 3rd stopped the technique before all three could be revived, were never actually shown whether there was anyone in that casket. This leads it open to assume Oro did not know whether he was dead or not, and tried to summon him anyway. The circumstances behind Yondaimes "demise" are secretive, probably seen by little to no-one, where can I base this assumption? because if people would have seen it they would know about Yondaime/Naruto connection, and that Yondaime wanted him to be a hero.

The only things we do know is that Yondaime PICKED Naruto and that Naruto is following the fourths path. We can't be sure that Yondaime is dead because there is not enough evidence to prove it. If anything I imagine the casket of the fourth was half summoned to sort of tease the fans, not showing whether indeed he was dead or not.

[white silver]

If anything I imagine the casket of the fourth was half summoned to sort of tease the fans, not showing whether indeed he was dead or not.


[b][font=tahoma][color=green]Gee, I wonder what would happen if Sandaime wasn't able to stop the 4ths coffin!

[Cbot]

Father son theory fist and seems to be the most logical thing.

Also why in hell people saying that the 4th is Akatsuki leader?That is really the most idiotic and retarted thing to think about imo.

[lee-nus]

i think he was his father... possibly brother, but considering all his friends' parents' respective ages, he seems to old for that. i'll go with father! ^^

[white silver]

Also why in hell people saying that the 4th is Akatsuki leader?That is really the most idiotic and retarted thing to think about imo.


[b][font=tahoma][color=green]Hmmm... I agree with you there. They keep saying Yondaime is the Akatsuki leader, it is just as good as saying that the leader is Naruto's elder brother or uncle!

[VeNoM87]

"Sorry to say this but people are stupid if they think that The 4rth hokage is the akatsuki leader or is still alive because that just ain't possible. When Orochimaru was fighting the 3rd he wanted to summon the: 1st, 2nd and 4rth hokage's and implant a knife in them with a tag on it which made them on his side. At that time only the 1st and 2nd were "resurrected" but then sealed by the 3rd, thus being in the deathgods his stomach. The 4rth Hokage wasn't "resurrected". This means that there is no way in hell that he is alive since that deathcrate was sucked back in."

IIRC, the 3rd stopped the technique before all three could be revived, were never actually shown whether there was anyone in that casket. This leads it open to assume Oro did not know whether he was dead or not, and tried to summon him anyway. The circumstances behind Yondaimes "demise" are secretive, probably seen by little to no-one, where can I base this assumption? because if people would have seen it they would know about Yondaime/Naruto connection, and that Yondaime wanted him to be a hero.

The only things we do know is that Yondaime PICKED Naruto and that Naruto is following the fourths path. We can't be sure that Yondaime is dead because there is not enough evidence to prove it. If anything I imagine the casket of the fourth was half summoned to sort of tease the fans, not showing whether indeed he was dead or not.


Aye there is some truth in that, but imo saying that the 3rd hokage is the leader of akatsuki is the same as saying he is the deathgod

[Kusachu]

hee hee...wow...people get so upset about things sometimes don't they??

anyways, about Yondaime and and the caskets and whatnot. WHAT IF IT WAS NEVER HIS BODY IN THAT CASKET IN THE FIRST PLACE! Those caskets contained the bodies of Kin and Zaku the body in the last casket was probably Dosu's body. The summoner, Orochimaru, has to offer a sacrifice of a body to perform the technique. The souls of the first, second, and fourth were summoned, not their actual bodies. It was fully explained when Orochimaru told Tsunade that if she wanted him to bring back Dan and her little brother, she would have to provide him with two bodies (presumably Jiraiya's and Naruto's). That's just what i think though, i could be wrong or have a bad memeory...or that could have just been in the anime. i haven't seen the manga of that part in ages. XP

[ffd]

nice explanation.... but isnt it that those who have been eaten by Deathgod through that technique, could not possibbly be resurrect again...? they will be in state of fighting for eternity in the hell...... ya-ha!

[Hemostrat]

Well, the move that Sandiame used against Oro is different from that that Yondaime used against the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi was sealed, his soul in another body. Shodaime, Nidaime and, Sandaime's souls are eaten and are in the death god's stomach.

[billion bruce lees]

he's got a point[size=1]Posted on: June 13, 2006, 01:32:10 PM

hee hee...wow...people get so upset about things sometimes don't they??

anyways, about Yondaime and and the caskets and whatnot. WHAT IF IT WAS NEVER HIS BODY IN THAT CASKET IN THE FIRST PLACE! Those caskets contained the bodies of Kin and Zaku the body in the last casket was probably Dosu's body. The summoner, Orochimaru, has to offer a sacrifice of a body to perform the technique. The [b]souls of the first, second, and fourth were summoned, not their actual bodies. It was fully explained when Orochimaru told Tsunade that if she wanted him to bring back Dan and her little brother, she would have to provide him with two bodies (presumably Jiraiya's and Naruto's). That's just what i think though, i could be wrong or have a bad memeory...or that could have just been in the anime. i haven't seen the manga of that part in ages. XP
couldn't be braught back, his spirit is/ in naruto, so he can't be summoned

[Hemostrat]

Who couldn't be braught back? Yondaime? We don't know that. We don't know if he is/in Naruto, all we know is that the Kyuubi is in Naruto. All we can assume is that the jutsu that Yondaime used that was LIKE the one Sandaime used, killed him in the end.

[Tamerlane]

Merged this into the large Yondaime thread since the convo has died down a bit. Also stickied this topic so it does not get lost again.

:amuse

[ibra87]

I truly don't think that Yondaime is Naruto's father. In many stories the unkown father or mother happen to be the person you least expect. And Yondaime looks so damn much like Naruto. I really think that Kishi thought of making them both that way to make u think this way, and then in the last arc he tells us that his father is someone else (e.g. Asuma :P) so we think: WOW SO UNPREDICTABLE... this is what every author is after.

[billion bruce lees]

I truly don't think that Yondaime is Naruto's father. In many stories the unkown father or mother happen to be the person you least expect. And Yondaime looks so damn much like Naruto. I really think that Kishi thought of making them both that way to make u think this way, and then in the last arc he tells us that his father is someone else (e.g. Asuma :P) so we think: WOW SO UNPREDICTABLE... this is what every author is after.
please don't say that again...asu..m..can't say it.

[conan]

well dont blame ibra bruce lee, he was just trying to make a point, but never the less.
ASUMA, :blink.
now that would be wierd.

[white silver]

well dont blame ibra bruce lee, he was just trying to make a point, but never the less.
ASUMA, :blink.
now that would be wierd.


[b][font=tahoma][color=green]Fricken Weird if you ask me. Question, why aren't Naruto's parents stepping up in Konoha?

[conan]

umm yeah good question jolly silver but isnt that kind of one of the most mysterious questions in the whole series, I mean we have seen everything about sasuke and the destruction of the uchiha clan but nothing about naruto except that he has kyubi sealed inside him.
but since there isn't many possibilities it could either bethey are alive but not in konoha for a reason,or they could be dead or one of them could be alive and the other dead, or maybe (this is one I rally doubt but the ideas out there) he didnt have parents( you know being yondaime's incarnation or whatever,maybe he was even similar to yamato, a gunea pig) well you can try and speculate how the hell all that happened.

[billion bruce lees]

neo gene therapy, oro style. :p