Sasuke vs Oro & Jiraiya

[alchemy1234]

Who do you think would win?
Sasuke has 1 hour prep. time and knowledge about all of Jiraiyas and Oros jutsus.

Location Sannin Battle field (where the sannins fought in pt.1)

I think sasuke would easily take this.

[Oblivion]

sasuke without oro infusion would be torn apart by any ONE of em.

oro in good shape and jiraya maybe dont even have to go into hermit mode be beat the living crap out of sasugay.

seriously, no stupid plot no jutsu could save sasuke's sorry ass.

not that i dislike sasuke, nor do i really prefer oro or j-man but he would lose sooo stupidly bad even being prepared.

[enmymiguel]

sasuke is very skill guy and like kakashi tell naruto when zabuza saga that in the world are kid more little then naruto and more strong then him

[alchemy1234]

sasuke without oro infusion would be torn apart by any ONE of em.

oro in good shape and jiraya maybe dont even have to go into hermit mode be beat the living crap out of sasugay.

seriously, no stupid plot no jutsu could save sasuke's sorry ass.

not that i dislike sasuke, nor do i really prefer oro or j-man but he would lose sooo stupidly bad even being prepared.

This is how I think it will go:
Oro and Jiraiya come face to face with Sasuke-sama.
Sasuke-sama uses genjutsu.

Jiraiya admitted that he's really bad at genjutsu. So he would have trouble dealing with it.

Oro has also been very easily man-handled by Itachis genjutsu.

So I think Sasuke will cast genjutsu, use his chidori lance and just kill them both.
[hr]

sasuke is very skill guy and like kakashi tell naruto when zabuza saga that in the world are kid more little then naruto and more strong then him

Exactly! Sasuke is an Uchiha Prodigy. He's probably one of the most skilled shinobi in the Naruto-verse atm.

If hanzou took out all three sannin, I can see Sasuke easily take out Jiraiya and Orochimaru.

[TheChosenOne]

So basically Sasuke is omniscient and omnipotent when concerned with the Sannin, so he knows their weaknesses and how to counter their jutsu's, if that's the case then sure, Sasuke would take it. :oh

[alchemy1234]

So basically Sasuke is omniscient and omnipotent when concerned with the Sannin, so he knows their weaknesses and how to counter their jutsu's, if that's the case then sure, Sasuke would take it. :oh

Well, he has knowledge about all of their abilities (in this scenario). Personally I think even without knowledge of their abilities, he would take this.

The sannin really seem to suck at matters of genjutsu.

[TheChosenOne]

Well, he has knowledge about all of their abilities (in this scenario). Personally I think even without knowledge of their abilities, he would take this.

The sannin really seem to suck at matters of genjutsu.

Oro has created many techniques, I am sure he knows some excellent genjutsu as for Jiraiya even though genjutsu isn't his forte he knows how to break out of them and counter them. :)

If Sasuke doesn't have prior knowledge about the sannin and their abilities/weakness then Sasuke is a goner. Sasuke stated that the only reason why he was able to defeat Oro was cuz Oro was already weak, so reckon Oro got stronger, really doubtful that Sasuke takes him on, and comes out victorious. :)

[alchemy1234]

Oro has created many techniques, I am sure he knows some excellent genjutsu as for Jiraiya even though genjutsu isn't his forte he knows how to break out of them and counter them. :)

If Sasuke doesn't have prior knowledge about the sannin and their abilities/weakness then Sasuke is a goner. Sasuke stated that the only reason why he was able to defeat Oro was cuz Oro was already weak, so reckon Oro got stronger, really doubtful that Sasuke takes him on, and comes out victorious. :)

Good points. The reason I was assuming all of this was, because Itachi beat Oro in a minute in their confrontation.

It is highly plausible that Jiraiya could be more skilled at dispelling genjutsu than Oro is, but sharingan genjutsu seems to be quite hard to dispell.

I do believe that if they manage to break Sasukes genjutsu they would win.

[TheChosenOne]

Good points. The reason I was assuming all of this was, because Itachi beat Oro in a minute in their confrontation.

Well Oro couldn't attack Itachi and cause harm cuz that would ruin his body which Oro was trying to attain. Let's say Oro goes all out and at the end of the battle both are heavily injured but Itachi has lost an arm or so, isn't exactly the body Oro wants. :)


It is highly plausible that Jiraiya could be more skilled at dispelling genjutsu than Oro is, but sharingan genjutsu seems to be quite hard to dispell.Well Naruto not dispelling them is cuz he is extremely weak against Genjutsu but Jiraiya is different, he knows how to defeat genjutsu, and told Naruto how to, just cuz naruto had trouble doesn't mean that Jiraiya will. :)


I do believe that if they manage to break Sasukes genjutsu they would win.We haven't seen Sasuke cast very powerful genjutsu like Tsukiyomi or the frog genjutsu that Jiraiya in hermit mode casted, so at this point we don't know the degree of Sasuke's genjutsu, its high (supposedly) but I doubt it's in the same level of the aforementioned ones. :)

[Anime Head 101]

Good points. The reason I was assuming all of this was, because Itachi beat Oro in a minute in their confrontation.

It is highly plausible that Jiraiya could be more skilled at dispelling genjutsu than Oro is, but sharingan genjutsu seems to be quite hard to dispell.


Yeah but remeber Itachi didn't won't to take on Jiraiya even with Kisame

[Jammin]

I say Jiraiya and Orochimaru would spank him all over the place. :D

It's not that Sasuke is weak, it's that Jiraiya with those two elder frogs on his shoulders would be like facing three increadably powerful ninjas all at once. I think he alone could take Sasuke without much difficulty at all. When you throw Orochimaru into the mix, with his rather large assortment of abilities, nearly immortal body, and the not so small advantage of having been Sasuke's teacher for several years, this fight becomes a complete mismatch.

What has Sasuke got that will help him win this battle? Even assuming he's become damn good at the sharingan genjutsu, the regular sharingan genjutsu isn't that hard to deal with if your not fighting one on one, as the old woman from the sand village said. Though it probably wouldn't do him much good against Jiraiya anyway who has never been indicated to be weak to genjutsu in fact quite the contrary, he is the one who tried to teach Naruto a great method to resist it. The only thing that Jiraiya said was that he isn't good at using genjutsu. That pretty much leaves Kirin and since Orochimaru probably already knows about this, being his teacher and all. Their is no way they go into battle without a counter for it.

It's also important to note that when Sasuke was fighting Orochimaru before, Orochimaru was trying to take him alive and was in a severely weakened state. As for Jiraiya it took six super strong ninjas with special abilities all working as one to bring him down, three of which got right back up after he killed them.

Even if he knew all the abilities they had it wouldn't make things that much easier for Sasuke with ninjas like Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and the elder toads. The list of abilities would be a few hundred yards long.:amuse

[Konkun]

From what I've seen, Sasuke managed to beat up a bed-ridden Orochimaru, and an injured Itachi....don't put him that high up on the scale just yet, especially in the Sannin league.

[khar2]

come on itachi didn't want to use his MS against j-man if he did he would swap him, even sick itachi with MS is impossibly powerful that makes him pretty much on sanin level(all together they are all kage level ninjas) and sasu isn't pretty much staying behind but even him posted against 2 sanins wouldn't be good, but he could do good damage still
for oro being his teacher look at chapler when chidori sward priced oro he wasn't who was until sasu breaks door so oro didn't know shit about how strong sasu is an he is probably master at genjutsu like his brother, when he was under oro gen in his dimension he could overpower oros gen and put him under his own and not to speak about tsuki that i think is still probably more powerful the that j-man toad song..
to conclude he has every quality to fight on their level but he dosnt have one thing that he needs most when he is fighting with such a enemy, and even more when facing 2/3
and that is big chakra pool
in everything else he has enough knowledge and even good arsenal of jutsus

[ANBU4U]

"Well, at first I laughed. I thought "Of course Sasuke would get pawned"

Then I read the entirety of the first post and I had to rethink my position....

I still think Sasuke would be overwhelmed...but it may not be as one sided as most here would like to think. For shinobi like Sasuke, Itachi, Kakashi, and Shikamaru** one hour of preptime COMPLETE, knowledge of the battle-feild, and COMPLETE knowledge of the opponents jutsu arsenal is all but a death sentence.

I say Sasuke manages to disable one before going down.

P.S.- We have no idea how many of Oro's jutsu's Sasuke retains...but given kishi's slant towards sasuke lately dont be suprised if is the "perfect" secenario for Sasuke. AKA all of the jutsu are somehow in his memory, but he no longer has to deal with the threat of Oro reappearing.

[Oblivion]

oro maybe weak against genjutsu (maybe his only weakness and the only way to actually kill him) but jiraya on the other hand seems to be genjutsu approved as itachi, as of now, master of genjutsu, feared to take him on two on one....

so sasuke may use genjutsu to take oro out of the fight, but jiraya would still beat him senseless....

and what jammin said

[Anime Head 101]

oro maybe weak against genjutsu (maybe his only weakness and the only way to actually kill him) but jiraya on the other hand seems to be genjutsu approved as itachi, as of now, master of genjutsu, feared to take him on two on one....

so sasuke may use genjutsu to take oro out of the fight, but jiraya would still beat him senseless....

and what jammin said

Exactly if Itachi didn't won't to use genjutsu on Jiraiya what the hell is Sasuke's genjutsu going do to him

(make him laugh maybe)

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

i don't care if sasuke has oro's jutsu, jiraiya and oro would still win, in fact jiraiya would beat sasuke regardless from help from oro.
[hr]
sasuke could get both of them in genjutsu but that wouldn;t defeat them and maybe jiraiya with his strength could break out of the genjutsu, if jiraiya goes into hermit mode then sasuke would get pwned.

[Scias]

sasuke is very skill guy and like kakashi tell naruto when zabuza saga that in the world are kid more little then naruto and more strong then him

That line goes for Kakashi. A guy that had even a way worse growrate than Sasuke. I would say that Oro and Jiraiya were really really talented since they were born. This guys knows even more than they showed to us yet.


The sannin really seem to suck at matters of genjutsu.

Yee of coz, huh?
Oh wait ... Jiraiya in hermit-mode cought Pein with all his 3 clones just trough pure sound in genjutsu and they went nearly down after this move.
Ohhhh yeee your so right ... some Genjutsu that can take out 3 clones of Pein (maybe all if all would've showed up at the start) really suxx ass :D

---

For me this fight is ridiculous. Just compare this thing:
Itachi (+ KISAME!!!) didnt have the guts to go for Naruto while he was with Jiraiya. And Itachi with his 3 Mangekyou jutsus should be no one to fear a fight. Also he had Kisame at his side who was told to have THE GREATEST AMOUNT OF CHAKRA in AKATSUKI !! ... which really should be even more than Jiraiya could have. But they just did nothing and waited for an opportunity.
And now you can compare just Sasuke and Itachi. If you see the fight and what Susano alone is capable of doing you can say that Sasuke WAS loosing and got his ass kicked like never before.
And a guy that barely could save his life from Itachi should fight a full-power sannin that even was feared of Itachi?

So thats just for Sasuke vs Jiraiya.
And if you compare Orochimaru vs sasuke then you just have to remember what Sasuke told his other teammember:
"Orochimaru was already weak when I fought him. There is nothing more to this ..."


Sorry if this sounds some kind of snotty ... I dont mean it this way ;)
Its just that this idea sounds sooo ridiculous to me :)

Have a nice day,
greets

[kkck]

I dont think sasuke could beat either of them, specially now that he lost orochimaru's power.....

[DarkManSharingan32]

Senei Jashu and all those other Snake replacement jutsu are learned...
So expect Sasuke to still have them at the end of it all.

Sasuke gained the recuperative qualities from Orochimaru... which is the only side-effect noted in the manga... I believe.
---

The key to this, is the prep time:
Sasuke is good enough where he can use his Chidori Variants to keep the two Sannin at bay for a limited time.

But honestly it's only a matter of time before he gets overwhelmed

I'll throw a little something else in.
What if Sasuke can successfully divide and conquer...

Oro and Jiraiya aren't exactly the best of friends, and it might be possible to pit the two against eachother for a time.

Lack of teamwork against Sasuke could give him just the opportunity he needs to cripple one of the two with a big Katon, or even the Chidori.

Using Genjutsu in this manner could prove immensely useful.
---

But breaking it down:

Jiraiya: Summoning, Sealing, Heavy Ninjutsu, and Sannin Mode.

Well, the three aspects of his offensive capabilities.... all use fire jutsu. This area might be dead, even with Sannin mode combos. I don't think it's particularly smart for Jiraiya to fight fire with fire.

In Summoning: Manda is dead? Sasuke could be in major trouble if he isnt able to somehow hypnotize Gamabunta.

And Fuuin Jutsu: Not exactly an offensively useful technique... but it does have the ability to mess with Sasuke chakra, if the sannin use simultaneous opposing seals on Sasuke somehow.
---

Orochimaru: Snake Jutsu, Summoning, Sealing, Forbidden Jutsu, Kusanagi Sword.

Who knows what he will pull out. It's virtually impossible to tell. But we know that physical attacks are met with snake reconfigurations and revivals...

A potential Kusanagi vs. Kusanagi battle could occur... but that would prove too dangerous if Sasuke is using Nagashi to paralyze.

I think if anything, Jiraiya would be taken out first... leaving a Sasuke vs. Oro match where Oro edges out a debilitated and exhausted Sasuke.

[Scias]

Lack of teamwork against Sasuke could give him just the opportunity he needs to cripple one of the two with a big Katon, or even the Chidori.

Maybe, but this Katon thing which he used against Itachi needs to much chakra I bet plus none of his opponents is stupid enough to not look out for Sasuke while breakin up the teamwork.

[Aterin™]

Who would win in the fight Sasuke vs. Orochimaru and Jiraiya teamed up? Sasuke would win hands down. Why you ask? Because in the opening move he'd use the Summoning Jutsu and summon Kishimoto; so with the combined effort of Hatred and Kishi's love of Sasuke there's no way 2 Sannin's could take him down. lol

[DarkManSharingan32]

Maybe, but this Katon thing which he used against Itachi needs to much chakra I bet plus none of his opponents is stupid enough to not look out for Sasuke while breakin up the teamwork.

He fired off more than one of those...
Yeah, if he proclaims it as his last jutsu it's going to deplete his chakra...

But before it reaches that point, using those jutsu wont be quite as detrimental.

And the tactic would require Sasuke to keep the non-genjutsu'd teammate busy... lowering the chances for help.

[lazyboyrod]

Who do you think would win?
Sasuke has 1 hour prep. time and knowledge about all of Jiraiyas and Oros jutsus.

Location Sannin Battle field (where the sannins fought in pt.1)

I think sasuke would easily take this.

I seriously doubt that, and Jiraiya has too man techniques theres no way Sasuke could prepare for them in an hour, Sasuke isnt on that level yet, he won against a weakened Orochimaru and a weakened Itachi, that doesnt mean he could beat the shit out of everyone else.

[Spike Spiegal]

I think a more legit match- up would be Sasuke and Oro vs. Jiraiya.

Jiriaya by himself would destroy Sasuke
he has:
more chakra
resistance to genjutsu
way more jutsu
better speed
powerful barrier jutsu
a lot more experience
stronger Genjutsu
stronger Taijutsu
stronger Ninjutsu
better Summoning jutsu
Hermit mode

even with complete knowledge and preptime he couldn't beat Jiraiya.

[lazyboyrod]

I think a more legit match- up would be Sasuke and Oro vs. Jiraiya.

Jiriaya by himself would destroy Sasuke
he has:
more chakra
resistance to genjutsu
way more jutsu
better speed
powerful barrier jutsu
a lot more experience
stronger Genjutsu
stronger Taijutsu
stronger Ninjutsu
better Summoning jutsu
Hermit mode

even with complete knowledge and preptime he couldn't beat Jiraiya.

I salute thee for making these people see the truth. lol thanx

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

Jiraiya without hermit mdoe would still beat sasuke.

[Black/Light]

Sas would WIN!!!

This is how it would go down. . .

Seeing as Kish has a chubby for Sas after doing one move J-man would trip and fall. . .on a large, spikey rock. . .and said rock would stab him in the heart. . .and he would club his head (well falling) on a even larger rock killing all in one trip.

Oro would LOOK fine but after one move. . .OMG, his body is crapping out on him and he needs to do the body transfer jutsu! He than lets Sas slice him up so that he can try to jump into his body and sits theres for a well before Itachi kills him.

Sas would be left, scared as a rabbit with his knees shaking and about to piss himself but he wins by defult.


-----------

But really, Oro would simply beat the dog mess out of Sas. J-man would say ". . .Uhhh, I don't care about this lil SHG brat, got to find some women for my research! <(^_-)>" and leave because he has no reason to waste his time on a teenager that he could kill with no problem.

Oro would stay and kill him because Oro likes missing with young boys. . .or he would take over his body. Which ever comes first.

[enmymiguel]

well ninja win cause how smart they are and how to use a jutsu when they have to use it

[Decorus]

Itachi ran from Jiraiya and used Amaterasu to make use of the Uchiha art of run. Itachi knew he and Kisame would not win the fight despite thier abilites with out dying in the process. Jiraiya was horrible at actually using genjutsu, but canceling them and resisting them is an entirely different skill set.

[Marq]

...

...

Out of all of the threads, this one is just plain silly. Sasuke, beating both Jirayia and Orochimaru? Even with prep time he would get his ass kicked. Disabling even one? Probably Orochimaru, seeing as he's more of the heavily based jutsu among him and Jirayia.

[Alexis]

Well, he has knowledge about all of their abilities (in this scenario). Personally I think even without knowledge of their abilities, he would take this.

The sannin really seem to suck at matters of genjutsu.
Well in the scenarion where Sasuke knows all about their abilities, I guess it depends on if there is any way for them to block Kirin. Hiding within their summons might not help. But there's also Jiraya's frog wall that he used to lock in Itachi, and his barrier that he used against Pain, whetever it does. Orochimaru also has that wall summon, so if they combine their forces, perhaps they could block it.

But if Sasuke doesn't know their abilities, then I think he would probably lose. Together they both have twice as much chakra as he does. He would run out of it quicker than they would. Question is if Sasuke can break Jiraya's genjutsu. Not even Pain could, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sasuke could do it. Then again, that genjutsu is based on sound and not eyes, so it might not be possible for him.
And Orochimaru knows more than he has shown us so far, specifically with Yamata no Orochi, so who knows what else he could contribute.

[enmymiguel]

i bet the one who make this thread is a sasuke hater so the other haters can come here and say alot of stupid stuff about sasuke

[kkck]

Even if sasuke knows all of jiraiyas and oros abilities, oro already knows all of sasukes tricks, since he trained him, so if he is at full power he could lick uchiha ass on his own and easily. How come jiraiya doesnt get too know all of sasukes jutsu?

[enmymiguel]

Even if sasuke knows all of jiraiyas and oros abilities, oro already knows all of sasukes tricks, since he trained him, so if he is at full power he could lick uchiha ass on his own and easily. How come jiraiya doesnt get too know all of sasukes jutsu?

well but oro lose cause sasuke only use the sharingan and chidori and thats something that oro dont know about it

[Raizen]

This is the funniest thread I have read!!
people overestimate sasuke so much. He only win battles becasue in the end the battles are always
sasuke + the ninja against the ninja. What I mean is somehow the one sasuke fights always has something that weakens him or gives him a HUGE disadvantage. and when I say HUGE I mean HUGE!!!

Oro has superior ninjutsu and other skills. I mean he can summon 2 hokages.
As for J-man <33 he is superior to sasuke in every aspect.

So sorry but this thread is pretty pointless unless its for a good laugh or something. Sasuke would get ANNIHILATED!!!

[Scias]

Also I might add:

First of all if it would be that easy for a Genjutsu User (even Sharingan Dojutsu) to win agaibst Jiraiya, why didnt he just beat the shit out of him while he first "fought" him? Also Oro and Jiraiya knows about Sharingan and it's Dojutsu, so they won't get caught in it so easily.

On top of that you overrate Sasukes Genjutsu.
Up to now he was just able to let his opponents see illusions but he never damaged trough pure genjutsu/dojutsu like Jiraiya or Itachi.

Oh year and Orochimaru got hit by a couple of serious ninjutsus that Sasuke is not able to bring up without preparation. And if Oro sees through this, he just disappears in the earth and the jutsu does shit.

[Alexis]

Even if sasuke knows all of jiraiyas and oros abilities, oro already knows all of sasukes tricks, since he trained him, so if he is at full power he could lick uchiha ass on his own and easily. How come jiraiya doesnt get too know all of sasukes jutsu?
Well Orochimaru didn't know about Sasuke's chakra/lightning sword, so apparently Sasuke kept some things hidden from him.

[Black/Light]

. . .What is this topic about? I mean, how can this even BE a topic?

"IF Sas knew all their jutsu". . . Ok, so Sas somehow memerized the 100s of jutsu they have between them. And what? What can he do about it? He hasn't shown us anything that leads us to think that he can actually bloke or counter any thing they have. Can't bloke the giant RSG. . .can't use the giant Snake summon against Oro.

"IF he had a hour of prep time" . . . I guess this is to allow him to charge up his kirin by the thread makers attemp to even things out. Neither of these people are dumb, they both know he has the lightening element and a thunder stroms just HAPPENs to be around a dude who uses lightening. . . they both got blokers for huge attacks.

Im very much sure that oro, by himself and normal heath, can kill Sas with no problem. Just like Im sure that if Itachi wasn't all beat up he would have won with no problem. No need to even bring J-man into this. . .he owns all 3.

[IchigoSoul]

This thread is so pointless, no offense but Oro alone can win against sasuke, not to mention putting two of them together. Jiraya with every aspects is stronger than sasuke, how is he suppose to win?

[badluckartist]

........I'm agreeing with the general consensus that this thread is stupid and pointless. If anything, it should get merged with the "Which fight would you like to see thread?", wherever that got buried.

Why haven't the mods relocated this stupid thread yet?

{{For the record, Sasuke would be obliterated. Ugh.}}

[khar2]

man if someone is getting overrated it is j-man, he would obliterated oro, tsunade, hell even madara...
lets putt few logical reason why itachi would not fight j-man??? lets see:
he was tired, they were not one day from konoha, same why he didn't do a massacre in konoha (akatski would be a highly pursued ninjas....) why do hell do you think itachi wouldn't be able to smash j-man with sunsao and where the hell did you see that j-man is actually good at dispelling a genjutsu, he only explained naruto how to do it, its a common knowledge nothing more, where did he shown some extra abilities in tai...
only he showed us were some good ninjutsu stuff, supper mode(gen) and extensive battle field experience at fighting

you hyped old sanin too much

[lordHokage]

Enough is enough, this topic is an insult to both Pervy Sage and Orochimaru’s abilities. :p

[Scias]

man if someone is getting overrated it is j-man, he would obliterated oro, tsunade, hell even madara...
lets putt few logical reason why itachi would not fight j-man??? lets see:
he was tired, they were not one day from konoha, same why he didn't do a massacre in konoha (akatski would be a highly pursued ninjas....) why do hell do you think itachi wouldn't be able to smash j-man with sunsao and where the hell did you see that j-man is actually good at dispelling a genjutsu, he only explained naruto how to do it, its a common knowledge nothing more, where did he shown some extra abilities in tai...
only he showed us were some good ninjutsu stuff, supper mode(gen) and extensive battle field experience at fighting

you hyped old sanin too much

It was not only the situation where Itachi went directly to Konoha. While searching for Tsunade or while Naruto was training with Jiraiya he could easily show up with Kisame and kick his ass.

But he didnt.
And in one chap he also admited it himself that its too dangerous to catch Naruto while Jiraiya is around .

[lazyboyrod]

Enough is enough, this topic is an insult to both Pervy Sage and Orochimaru’s abilities. :p

Dont worry about it, they will never actually fight so just let them think what they want to think.

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

Sasuke doesn't know Jiraiya's abilities, so why do people say that if he did he could beat jiraiya, the fact is he only knows oro well and not jiraiya.

[lazyboyrod]

Sasuke doesn't know Jiraiya's abilities, so why do people say that if he did he could beat jiraiya, the fact is he only knows oro well and not jiraiya.

Naw there was sum genius in this thread that said Sasuke could beat Jiraiya if he was given knowledge of all of Jiraiya's techniques, but one Jiraiya has way to many techniques to learn to defend in an hour and two wtf, who the hell is guna give someone a list of their techniques, stupid Sasuke enthusiasts stop trying to give him a handicap. :mad

[enmymiguel]

i mean deidara can beat oro and j-man, c1/c2/c3 and c4 plus all hes element jutsu.
and sasuke is not that weak that any sanin can go and beat him easy. and sanin is low level then hokage.

[Scias]

Naw there was sum genius in this thread that said Sasuke could beat Jiraiya if he was given knowledge of all of Jiraiya's techniques, but one Jiraiya has way to many techniques to learn to defend in an hour and two wtf, who the hell is guna give someone a list of their techniques, stupid Sasuke enthusiasts stop trying to give him a handicap. :mad

Thats right!

Especially why do they think about Sasuke for this job?
For a 2on1 I bet Shikamaru COULD be a way better option. He can get more out of this information and his shadow-techniques COULD get in use.
But the "COULD" means that we dont know what Shikamaru is really capable of doing for now what really suxx in some kind of way :D

I doubt that he trained 3 years and learned no new jutsu since he possesed all this jutsus he had showed up so far.
[hr]

i mean deidara can beat oro and j-man, c1/c2/c3 and c4 plus all hes element jutsu.
and sasuke is not that weak that any sanin can go and beat him easy. and sanin is low level then hokage.

No not really.
Orochimaru has way too much jutsus to escape an explosion. Even for the last explosion of Deidara where I bet he could defend himself with this 3-way gate defend shit he used against the naruto-kyuubi attack.

[enmymiguel]

Thats right!

Especially why do they think about Sasuke for this job?
For a 2on1 I bet Shikamaru COULD be a way better option. He can get more out of this information and his shadow-techniques COULD get in use.
But the "COULD" means that we dont know what Shikamaru is really capable of doing for now what really suxx in some kind of way :D

I doubt that he trained 3 years and learned no new jutsu since he possesed all this jutsus he had showed up so far.
<hr noshade size="1">


No not really.
Orochimaru has way too much jutsus to escape an explosion. Even for the last explosion of Deidara where I bet he could defend himself with this 3-way gate defend shit he used against the naruto-kyuubi attack.


can oro or j-man survive against the boom that deidara use to beat gaara

[DarkManSharingan32]

i mean deidara can beat oro and j-man, c1/c2/c3 and c4 plus all hes element jutsu.
and sasuke is not that weak that any sanin can go and beat him easy. and sanin is low level then hokage.

I can foresee events where Deidara can come out victorious... Jiraiyas shield techniques might be able to block the Garuda...but who knows.

But remember that Sannin isn't exactly a level...
And in fact all three Sannin have been strong enough to be Kage for decades now....

[Scias]

can oro or j-man survive against the boom that deidara use to beat gaara

Lol ... you could also ask:

Can Deidara survive a hundred of snakes rushing at him with swords rapidly blowing out of their mouth?

[khar2]

scias every time you fight you endanger yourself, and why itachi said it would be dangerous??? every opponent on kage level is dangerous opponent that why he said it and anime somehow putt that like a if we fight him we would probably died and since that oro is bashed as a weak and j-man as a godly ninja strongest in the world... ... ... i am saying you are hyping it too much

[Scias]

scias every time you fight you endanger yourself, and why itachi said it would be dangerous??? every opponent on kage level is dangerous opponent that why he said it and anime somehow putt that like a if we fight him we would probably died and since that oro is bashed as a weak and j-man as a godly ninja strongest in the world... ... ... i am saying you are hyping it too much

Year and that is why I always want to go against guys with this conclusions, especially about Orochimaru.

He never was shown as a weak guy. He fought the 3th Hokage and afterwards he was weaken and had some kind of disease. Like nearly all of Sasuke's enemies ... just fighting handicapped guys. But Jiraiya never really was handicaped so there is no way you can compare these two guys.

I mean ... look at Orochimaru fighting Yamato and Naruto. The jutsus from oro showed up in this fight were really high-class shit and like it was told he was already weakend by something. I dont remember that it was said what it was (maybe the death-god effect that remains so far) but I remember that it was said that he was some kind of weakend.

I just want to make clear that just because ITS SHOWN Sasuke defeated a WEAKEND Orochimaru and a WEAKEND Itachi, it's no comparison to see what would happen if he fought Jiraiya instead who always seemed to be healthy and full-powered.

[khar2]

oro was but doesn't mean that his dimensional jutsu was and sasu completely genjutsu him and reverse procedure, yes he killed his body but still sooner or later oro should resort to that jutsu couse he wanted to took sasus body... to stop this writing and to conclude itaci, oro and j-man are probably same level pain to. differences in strength are minimal and itachi probably with sunsao could beat both so plz stop hyping j-man like invincible. sasu probably isnt their level but is close and could beat any of them (and all that itachi blindness was brought to him due to unsuccesful use of tsuki he suffered and probably sasu suffered some damage breaking it)

[lazyboyrod]

oro was but doesn't mean that his dimensional jutsu was and sasu completely genjutsu him and reverse procedure, yes he killed his body but still sooner or later oro should resort to that jutsu couse he wanted to took sasus body... to stop this writing and to conclude itaci, oro and j-man are probably same level pain to. differences in strength are minimal and itachi probably with sunsao could beat both so plz stop hyping j-man like invincible. sasu probably isnt their level but is close and could beat any of them (and all that itachi blindness was brought to him due to unsuccesful use of tsuki he suffered and probably sasu suffered some damage breaking it)

No im pretty sure Itachi Orochimaru and J-man are not all on the same leve, and a healthy Orochimaru would pwn Sasuke, Orochimaru knows all of Sasuke's techniques (he taught him half of them) and Im pretty sure he knows how to counter them effectively. Then theres J-man, just dont put Jiraiya and Sasuke in the same sentence please! O0

[Scias]

so plz stop hyping j-man like invincible.

Nobody really hypes him like he is invincible. He got owned by Pein so there is no fact that could state the theory of Jiraiya beeing invincible :D

I agree with your statement that all of them are nearly equal.
We will just have to wait and see whats coming up next coz we dont know all about Itachi, Pein or the remaining Orochimaru.
Also Jiraiyas dead wasnt stated yet even if it's shown really clear.
[hr]

No im pretty sure Itachi Orochimaru and J-man are not all on the same leve, and a healthy Orochimaru would pwn Sasuke, Orochimaru knows all of Sasuke's techniques (he taught him half of them) and Im pretty sure he knows how to counter them effectively. Then theres J-man, just dont put Jiraiya and Sasuke in the same sentence please! O0

No ...
he said ITACHI, JIRAIYA, OROCHIMARU and PEIN are/were nearly equal.
He didnt mention Sasuke for that :)

[khar2]

thx scias, lazy my point that j-man is hyped only because that stupied sentence from anime and since than j-man is boom
this treat is stupid(no offense i like discution, good job to creator) one against two is hard to win in everything, impossible if you are not good as your opponents, simply to say they will swarm you, you will go defense and will have to wait for attack so only chance for victory is to eliminate one in start
sasu is sharingan he can read seals oro and j-man cant so they would recognize any jutsu when they see it, too late mostly
i never said sasu was stronger i just said he is exceptional ninja on every field and he is pretty close to them and he can fight with any of them on equal ground and he has chances of wining... and just couse you are sasu hater all your declarations are he will get pawned, why, he showed us speed, brains, summon, strong nin.... and he has sharingan and that is a big advantage simpy he has chances thats all, nothing is guarantied not victory not loss

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

can oro or j-man survive against the boom that deidara use to beat gaara

J-man wouldn't get into the situation in which he takes the hit. He can summon gamabunta or other toads and then go hermit mode, do some ultimate oodama rasengan and then do some crazy barriers jutsus and if deidara dropped a bomb, j-man would used that toad stomach, and furthermore he could capture deidara using his hair jutsu. And just to top it off, he has the will of fire.

[badluckartist]

It's guaranteed Sasuke would lose. Trust me.

There is no "getting lucky" against two fully healthy, Kage-level ninja, who are also Sannin. This is ridiculous that people even think Sasuke would have a chance.

[lordHokage]

It's guaranteed Sasuke would lose. Trust me.

There is no "getting lucky" against two fully healthy, Kage-level ninja, who are also Sannin. This is ridiculous that people even think Sasuke would have a chance.

I agree with you that Sasuke could have all the good luck in the world but that wouldn’t be enough to defeat two healthy Sannin. Sasuke best chance of victory is to wait until they both get sick. :p

[IchigoSoul]

Khar2, please there is no way a 15 year old ninja can beat two among the few greatest ninjas in the world who had ten times as much trg as he has, ten times more experienced. Everytime sasuke fought in part 2 and win is against a weakened opponent. Deidara is not counted as he was heavily handicapped and Kishi decided to save sasuke. Seems like a stroke of "Good Luck" to me that Suigetsu knew sasuke hid in Manda.

Heres a list of why he cant win.
1)Kirin would be easily blocked, especially against jiraya, who had so many shield techniques.
2)Taijustu - would be a factor but again oro and jiraya would have a advantage in this
2)Ninjustu- Another mismatch. A sealing genius and a technique genius losing to Sasuke, i think not
3)Genjustu- Only advantage sasuke has but breaking a genjustu involved overloading your mind with charkra, for people who can use a rasengan that big, how difficult do you think it is for him to break out of the genjustu?

PLs stop saying we are sasuke haters. We are merely stating the facts. Im not a sasuke hater but Im just upset you placed the Two Sannins in comparison with him, a big insult.

[khar2]

body stops developing at 20 so this is when man reaches his limit further more is just experience and maintaince (unless you are talking about dbZ)
itachi wasn't much older than sasu and he is on sanin level, pain(he cant be over 30)
oro trained him to be physically strong as him s he could continue in a strong body
giant rasengan is something different from state when you cant control anything in your body, so its not just as you said
and i didn't say he is on their level i said he is close
you dont have to be hater but pointing that his every victory is luck or resault of big advantage hmmm does that seems fair ;)

[DarkManSharingan32]

"In the ninja world, there are those half your age, and two times as strong as me" - Hatake Kakashi.

Age is NOT a factor.

[Black/Light]

"In the ninja world, there are those half your age, and two times as strong as me" - Hatake Kakashi.

Age is NOT a factor.

Age isn't a COMPLETE factor seeing as Naruto almost killed J-man and he is only 16 (BUT thats because he went 4 tails on his a** and we all know that Kyb power=greater than everything and he probly wasn't trying to kill Naruto with Hermit mode or anything. . . just training with the shocking pop out of 4 tails).

The fact is that Sas has no where near the experience that either has NOR the jutsu to counter them NOOORRR the tools they have. Who has he killed? Dei?. . . .Dei blasted off a wing, popped him with a few bombs and poisoned him with tiny bombs, forcing him to chidori him self. His saving grace was having a counter element . . .and Dei still had to off himself which took alway Sas's only giant summon.

Oro was knocking on deaths door before he let Sas slice him up so that he could do the body transfer jutsu. . .and Itachi had to kill him.

Itachi was damaged before or during his fight with Sas (by unknown causes) . You don't "kill" someone by stabbing them in the leg and burning thier right arm when they are already throwing up blood for unknown reasons. . .and his deus ex machina in this fight was Oro wasting Itachi's time when he pulled out that last summon. (Which effectively took away Oro, the only thing that saved him from the black flames/ allowed him to recover fast enuff to find Itachi)

Sas has yet to show that he can beat a non-handle capped enemy. . ..he has yet to show that he can out class a Sanin in ANY thing. . .he has yet to actually kill a person. . .he has never shown that he has the power to counter any of their good attacks.

16 or 55, someone how has his track record wouldn't have what it takes to beat normal solo Oro, let alone normal Itachi or J-man.

[DarkManSharingan32]

Sasuke has shown greater elemental mastery that both Orochimaru and Jiraiya combined. What he's done with the Chidori, and Orochimaru's snake techniques... go much further than just the pure intellect it took to develop those moves, and even all of Jiraiya's variations of Rasengan (which are just bigger versions... with no specific advantage except for amount of surface area hit).

In terms of Ninjutsu... I think he surpasses Jiraiya in his fire techniques, which happens to be Jiraiyas primary element so far.. and Sennin mode relied heavily on this...

I contend that if Jiraiya thinks fire attacks and Genjutsu would somehow help him against Sasuke... he'd be underestimating to the point of his own detriment.

In Taijutsu... Orochimaru runs circles around Jiraiya, and Pein did pretty much the same to Jiraiya.

Hand to hand... Sasuke is much more technical that Jiraiya has ever shown to be. I don't care how much you like Pervy Sage... he hasn't shown anything that could rival even Lee pre-timeskip in terms of speed and strength.
---

But thats beyond the whole spectrum of this argument...
With all the pegs set up for Sasuke... of course he's going to knock most of them down.

Orochimaru with a better knowledge of what Sasuke can do... greatly weighs down all of Sasuke chances to win... so much that I can't possibly see Sasuke winning.

Like I said before though: Sasuke is good enough now... where he can at least get off a jutsu that can disable his opponent.

I mean... just look at the first bell test...
Kakashi had to take him somewhat serious back than... and that was 3-4 years ago.
---

Young will surpass the old:
How much longer do you think this manga is gonna go on... how much longer will satisfy your pigeonholing of Sasuke's shown development? Another time-skip maybe?

I don't think so.

[Jammin]

Orochimaru's mastery of snakes makes Sasuke's look like a joke. Against the kyuubi Naruto he sent a tsunami of poisonus snakes at Naruto not to mention the hydra technique that has shown up just recently, all Sasuke uses the snakes for is shields. Not once has he used a snake as an offensive weapon.

The element thing is not even worth rebutting as Sasuke can use only two elements and no combinations of the two. Though he is good at using both, two elements doesn't even come close to being enough to say he has an advantage in elements over Jiraiya and Orochimaru combined both of whom have more than two.

[khar2]

you missing point jammin, talk is about how j-man is being hyped again and he isnt stronger then oro and no one said that sasu can beat them both but what we are saying that sasu is on a level close to sanin and that he stands chance of victory and can fight them on equal ground with any ninja kage level

[Rahan]

Sasuke is an Uchiha, and in Pt2, only a Uchiha can beat an Uchiha.
You can add Tsunade, Pein, Naruto, kakashi, Gai, Minato, Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell and Majin Boo to help the gramps, if it's a fight written by Kishimoto, Sasuke would win and let a comment on how bad his opponents are compared to his clan.

Of course, if the fight is not shown, but only talked about, then Sasuke would lose, even if the opponent is Tenten.

[khar2]

hehe i gues man has a point, who can beat ten ten, man how would you hit a girl, even if she trows daggers at you:)

[DarkManSharingan32]

Orochimaru's mastery of snakes makes Sasuke's look like a joke. Against the kyuubi Naruto he sent a tsunami of poisonus snakes at Naruto not to mention the hydra technique that has shown up just recently, all Sasuke uses the snakes for is shields. Not once has he used a snake as an offensive weapon.

The element thing is not even worth rebutting as Sasuke can use only two elements and no combinations of the two. Though he is good at using both, two elements doesn't even come close to being enough to say he has an advantage in elements over Jiraiya and Orochimaru combined both of whom have more than two.

Whos to say Sasuke can't use combinations? Honestly, at this point even that is too early... since only YAMATO has shown any ability to combine elements.

And what elements have Orochimaru shown exactly? Pull up the manga evidence... because he didn't use any against Sandaime, and it was impossible for him to against Jiraiya and Tsunade.

With Jiraiya... i believe he has shown Earth and Fire.

Earth. Tell me how this helps Jiraiya one bit.

Geez... Gaara is a Kage level ninja with his techniques, and with Sasuke's elemental advantages it would be amazingly tough for Gaara to come out victorious.

[badluckartist]

Nothing from the manga says Gaara uses earth type manipulation for his techniques, but that's an argument for another time.

Jiraiya's Toad Hermit Song jutsu seems to be of an extremely high calibur, and I'm sure it'd slow Sasuke down, at the very least. Even if Sas captures Jiraiya in a genjutsu, Sas doesn't have the "hatred" for Jiraiya or Oro (he only detests Oro), I don't think he'd easily escape the Toad Song. And like whomever said it said, somebody who can use a Rasengan that colossal without breaking a sweat can break through whatever average genjutsu Sas can dish out with his normal Sharingan.

And if you don't think Jiraiya has Taijutsu skills, look at the entire Pain fight after he initiates Hermit Mode. He moves incredibly fast, and hits like a cannonball. No amount of "technical" movements from Sasuke's Taijutsu is going to counter that, I'm sorry. Oro at full health? That's a laugh. Have you ever seen that guy not use his patented "Orochimaru's Kawarimi" in a fight? No.

Now we come to ninjutsu. Do you really think Sasuke's little fire dragon thing can counter being drenched in toad oil and then lit on fire? The two hermits used a pretty mean combo with this, and so did Gamabunta, which J-man can also use: summons for offense. Never seen Sas do that trick. I mean, Sas's lightning could get him out of the Swamp of the Underworld, but I doubt it could get him out of the Toad Mouth jutsu.

Lol "I heated up the atmosphere inside of the frog, resulting in all of the liquid in its body turning to vapor, which made a thundercloud, which I used for Kirin. Don't you know you can't stand up to the Uchiha?"

When it comes down to it, Sasuke would win thanks to the gods of deus ex machina, only because DeM holds providence over the lesser known gods of Common Sense and Reasonable Logic.

[Black/Light]

Sasuke has shown greater elemental mastery that both Orochimaru and Jiraiya combined. Right here i think I should stop reading. . .. thats a clear sign of BS acomen. All Sas has done is made weaker versions of chidori.

OMG. . .chidori needles! OMG. . .. full bod chidor that acts as a stun gun! OMG. . .a chidori sword!

And than theres Kirin. . .the one hit super situational jutsu thats completely depindaint on the clouds.



(For fire he has. . .. fire balls, flamethrower and fire dragon which he has always had sence the exams.)

For w/e skill Sas has with his elements J man has a counter element at hand + more chakra to use larger attacks + ways to combin relatively basic, low cost jutsu to make powerful element attacks. (Examply, Ma had J man spit oil and Pa blow wind well she shot fire to make the Deep Fryer jutsu. Taking fire, adding Oil and fanning the flames with wind to make a huge fire jutsu.)
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-377/page008.html

We don't even know Oro's element unless he shown it in the kage fight and Im simply not remembering.



What he's done with the Chidori, and Orochimaru's snake techniques... go much further than just the pure intellect it took to develop those moves, and even all of Jiraiya's variations of Rasengan (which are just bigger versions... with no specific advantage except for amount of surface area hit). Yes, because useing Snakes to bloke you takes oh soo much skill. Oh yea, and he can pull himself to a tree with them. . . where as Oro can throw himself up out of Snakes, make a tsunami of poisonus snakes, reattach two halves of his body with Snakes, make the hedra, use the skin shead jutsu and damn near become a snake him-self.

Sas is a cheap magic card trick book compared to Oro's houdini like use of Snakes.

And you are talking about Jmans RSG as if it's his bread and butter. Why would he try to advance his RSG? All version of chidori did nothing but make it weaker were as the giant RSG adds more size and power to a jutsu that Sas has nothing to counter with if he is hit.




In terms of Ninjutsu... I think he surpasses Jiraiya in his fire techniques, which happens to be Jiraiyas primary element so far.. and Sennin mode relied heavily on this... Ninjutsu =/= just fire. J man's RSG, Oil, Toad silhouette technique ( http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-371/page015.html ), shadow clones, Hermit mode, hair sheild/ hair grab/ / Hair Needle barrage/ Lion's Mane technic ( http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-374/page005.html ) so on and so on and so on are also apart of Ninjutsu.



I contend that if Jiraiya thinks fire attacks and Genjutsu would somehow help him against Sasuke... he'd be underestimating to the point of his own detriment. Why would he think that? Pa toad has water and wind elements. . . why fight with fire in such a case? Why would he even be in hermit mode?


In Taijutsu... Orochimaru runs circles around Jiraiya, and Pein did pretty much the same to Jiraiya. When did Oro "run" jack around J man? And even Tai Pain got kicked soo hard that his eyes where crushed http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-377/page006.html

He was gimped by Pain's eye tech after that.

Thats as fare as my reply to you goes. . .



you missing point jammin, talk is about how j-man is being hyped again and he isnt stronger then oro and no one said that sasu can beat them both but what we are saying that sasu is on a level close to sanin and that he stands chance of victory and can fight them on equal ground with any ninja kage level
The topic maker said Sas can beat them both/ J man is stronger than Oro and Sas aint on sanin level nor is he "close".

I think your the ones hyping Sas. . .. we are just pointing out how strong J man is.

[Jammin]

Whos to say Sasuke can't use combinations? Honestly, at this point even that is too early... since only YAMATO has shown any ability to combine elements.

And what elements have Orochimaru shown exactly? Pull up the manga evidence... because he didn't use any against Sandaime, and it was impossible for him to against Jiraiya and Tsunade.

With Jiraiya... i believe he has shown Earth and Fire.

Earth. Tell me how this helps Jiraiya one bit.

Geez... Gaara is a Kage level ninja with his techniques, and with Sasuke's elemental advantages it would be amazingly tough for Gaara to come out victorious. If you count senin mode he has access to Wind and Water as well. In that fight the female frog cut the lizard in half with a high pressure water spurt and then later he did a fire move which was Fire, Wind, and Oil all at once which counts as an element combination if you ask me.

Wind and Water are the opposing elements to Sasuke's. Jiraiya has access to both

Yamato and Haku are the only ones who have been shown to combine elements and produce something new. But combinations the i'm talking about are when you use a pair of complementary elements at the same time to make a move stronger. Kakuzu for example he used fire and wind at the same time to produce a more powerful fire element move. With the frogs Jiraiya can do this all the time with a variety of different elements, Sasuke can not.

Also in all likelyhood Garra's sand manipulation is Wind+Earth giving him the element advantage over Sasuke.

[khar2]

hmm maybe but it could be other way around but doesnt matter(not in a mood for a big writing)
so what sasu erase whole uchiha hideout and mountain on which it was with kirin and it doesn't make him all powerful
pain was a reckless fool against j-man and why do you think oro was weaker then j-man
it doesn't matter how big rasengan can you make and how much chakra you have, breaking genjutsu is a skill, probably skill most developed in people who are masters at casting why??? if you know how it works you can break it and at the end oro trained him to continue it is possibly sasu is physically strong as sanin, he is maybe lacking a big jutsu arsenal but he still has jutsu for every occasion :)

[Black/Light]

hmm maybe but it could be other way around but doesnt matter(not in a mood for a big writing)
so what sasu erase whole uchiha hideout and mountain on which it was with kirin and it doesn't make him all powerful
pain was a reckless fool against j-man How reckless could he have been? He killed J-man. . . and gave us one of the best fights of the 2nd half.


and why do you think oro was weaker then j-man
Itachi is scared of J-man and Itachi can clearly handle Oro with his huge summon.



it doesn't matter how big rasengan can you make and how much chakra you have, breaking genjutsu is a skill, And J-man knows how to brake gen using his powerful amount of chakra to brake thier control.

[Neuroff]

This topic is such a joke. All Orochimaru and Jiraiya would have to do is Rashoumon + Frog Song. Only the biggest Sasuke fanboys could actually believe he has a chance.

[lordHokage]

This topic is such a joke. All Orochimaru and Jiraiya would have to do is Rashoumon + Frog Song. Only the biggest Sasuke fanboys could actually believe he has a chance.

Speak the truth, I know it hurts but it needs to be told. To say with a straight face that Sasuke can defeat both Pervy Saga and Orochimaru is a laughing matter. Sasuke's fanboys please wake up. :blink

[enmymiguel]

wow so the one who make this thread maybe the next one he goin to make is konohamaru vs pein & madara

[AngryChubbs]

sasuke would win hands down...of course it would be that way...but thats cause oro would hiccup and his sword would bounce of out his stomach and get lodged in his brain and then tsunade would be right next to the battlefield in a steam bath naked and jiraya would be drooling over here and then a giant plane lands on both oro and jiraya making them both blind deaf and dumb and then sasuke would attack both of them with his strongest attack and win....and thats exactly what would happen...

come on now, sasuke has yet to defeat someone (besides deidera) at full strength. oro was a kripple in bed, itachi was coughing up blood and 3/4 blind....get the picture?

[Raizen]

Again, this thread is the biggest joke I have ever heard.

It never surprises me what a sasuke fan would do just to show their sasuke is "the best"
WTF

In Naruto, I say sasuke is the most horrible character. All he does is get random power-ups and win against half-dead ninja who is basically killing themselves. And his fans think that wow he is AMAZING.
lol
The sannins would rape him. Period!!

[TheChosenOne]

lol
The sannins would rape him. Period!!

Oro is likely the most popular candidate since he is after the boy's body. :)

[lordHokage]

Again, this thread is the biggest joke I have ever heard.

It never surprises me what a sasuke fan would do just to show their sasuke is "the best"
WTF

In Naruto, I say sasuke is the most horrible character. All he does is get random power-ups and win against half-dead ninja who is basically killing themselves. And his fans think that wow he is AMAZING.
lol
The sannins would rape him. Period!!

Sasuke can’t do no wrong in beloved his fans eyes after all he’s perfect and all powerful but yet he can’t take out a weak Orochimaru and Itachi but he can take out a healthy Orochimaru and Pervy Saga at the same time. :blink

[khar2]

why was pain reckless against j-man, hmm i dont know attacking straight forward, playing around, that what he did was hardly a good strategie but i can understand cuse he alweys had a back up plan whit 3 more bodies and revival jutsu... ok
where was it stated that itaci fears j-man, quote plz,...
handicapped opponents, 1. oro vs. sasu - no matter what battle would end up same, why, couse oro would sooner or later resort to body transfer ritual and it would end up same(oros health has little to do with strength of ritual and same for his weakness against genjutsu)
2.sasu vs. dei - it was his plain victory, he was playing with dei most of the time and in whole battle he didn't show any sign of wanting to kill dei and he has multiple options, and when your enemy resort to stuff like killing himself to kill you it pathetic, it is move without any trace honor( but dei got completely humiliated and he did what he did)
3.sasu vs ita - calling all the time itaci handicapped and not allowing sasu a victory is same to not allow pain his against j-man(j-man didn't know secret he was handicapped, or j-man lost hand in battle ha was handicapped) itachis blurred vision was direct damage from rappelled tsuki, he wasn't blinded at beginning of a fight, and victor in any fight is last man standing, and again his death was consequence of his defense against kirin so again, sasu has a clear victory

AND TO most people, debate isnt more in the head title its more about level of itachi, j-man, oro, pein and sasu

[Neuroff]

sasuke would win hands down...of course it would be that way...but thats cause oro would hiccup and his sword would bounce of out his stomach and get lodged in his brain and then tsunade would be right next to the battlefield in a steam bath naked and jiraya would be drooling over here and then a giant plane lands on both oro and jiraya making them both blind deaf and dumb and then sasuke would attack both of them with his strongest attack and win....and thats exactly what would happen...

come on now, sasuke has yet to defeat someone (besides deidera) at full strength. oro was a kripple in bed, itachi was coughing up blood and 3/4 blind....get the picture?
In Sasuke's next fight, Madara will die of old age when he's about to kill Sasuke.

[TheChosenOne]

In Sasuke's next fight, Madara will die of old age when he's about to kill Sasuke.

I dunno, I think Madara will likely be paralyzed before the fight starts. :)

[AngryChubbs]

why was pain reckless against j-man, hmm i dont know attacking straight forward, playing around, that what he did was hardly a good strategie but i can understand cuse he alweys had a back up plan whit 3 more bodies and revival jutsu... ok
where was it stated that itaci fears j-man, quote plz,...
handicapped opponents, 1. oro vs. sasu - no matter what battle would end up same, why, couse oro would sooner or later resort to body transfer ritual and it would end up same(oros health has little to do with strength of ritual and same for his weakness against genjutsu)
2.sasu vs. dei - it was his plain victory, he was playing with dei most of the time and in whole battle he didn't show any sign of wanting to kill dei and he has multiple options, and when your enemy resort to stuff like killing himself to kill you it pathetic, it is move without any trace honor( but dei got completely humiliated and he did what he did)
3.sasu vs ita - calling all the time itaci handicapped and not allowing sasu a victory is same to not allow pain his against j-man(j-man didn't know secret he was handicapped, or j-man lost hand in battle ha was handicapped) itachis blurred vision was direct damage from rappelled tsuki, he wasn't blinded at beginning of a fight, and victor in any fight is last man standing, and again his death was consequence of his defense against kirin so again, sasu has a clear victory

AND TO most people, debate isnt more in the head title its more about level of itachi, j-man, oro, pein and sasu

this is so ridiculous that i cant even argue this.

[lordHokage]

In Sasuke's next fight, Madara will die of old age when he's about to kill Sasuke.

I could see that happening, Sasuke's opponents definitely have bad luck on their side. Maybe one day his nickname will be Konoha’s Bad Luck Ninja. :rofl

[lazyboyrod]

This thread should just be closed and deamed impossible

[Raizen]

this is so ridiculous that i cant even argue this.
ROFL

Oh the sasuke fans, what will they think next??
"Find out on the next episodes of Sasuke Kiss-ass!!!"

[EnSiFeR]

i mean deidara can beat oro and j-man, c1/c2/c3 and c4 plus all hes element jutsu.
and sasuke is not that weak that any sanin can go and beat him easy. and sanin is low level then hokage.

Are you saying Deidara can beat Jiraiya-sama? Are you out of your mind?

Sasuke is not weak, but compared to both sannins, he is. Plus, it is not stated that Sannin is lower than Hokage... In fact, ppl at Konoha tried to make Jiraiya Hokage so... it might be in fact the other way around....

Admit it, you love Sasuke....

[Decorus]

Deidara would have lost to either Jiraiya or Orochimaru.

Sasuke = so weak that members of the Akatsuki have to kill themselves so he can win fights against them.

[DarkManSharingan32]

Alright, alot to reply to... Luckily it all basically centers around Jiraiya's Sannin Mode.
---

Sannin Mode Jiraiya:

Ninjutsu
Elemental:

Jiraya has shown Earth, Fire, and "Oil".
Ma uses Fire as well.
Pa uses Wind.

I don't remember any water jutsu being used.

If Sasuke takes advantage of the fact that Wind attacks will always come from Pa... he can use Pa's wind against him to flank the entire group of them.

But of course... easier said than done.
---

Taijutsu
Jiraiya may hit like a "cannon"... but thats because the longer haired Pein basically flew directly into it.

Later on with the help of the Rinnegan... he blocks Jiraiya's punch one handed.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/15/

Pretty weak cannon.
---

Genjutsu:

Sauske broke out of the Tsukiyomi. I don't know what other credentials he needs to be named than the MOST proficient Genjutsu user in the manga right now. (It used to be Itachi... but we all saw what happened.)

Considering the Toad Song is auditory... Sasuke might just be able to find a way to negate it altogether...

Or trap Orochimaru into it's effects.
---

And again I say...
Sasuke can't possibly WIN this fight.

But it's not like he's a Genin.
He'll put up some definite resistance.

[Marq]

It's going to go back and forth, and I did catch how you say that why people havent acknowledge Sasuke's growth. It's probably not the main thing, but those are the same people who downplay Naruto's strength saying he couldn't take on Kakashi, so of course those who feel offended are going to downplay Sasuke as well. It is going to go back and forth, not to mention the frustration that Kishi failed in showing Naruto's growth at all, hence the resentment and bitterness towards Sasuke.

When Naruto was stripped of his advantages or strong points, people became pissed, while it seems Sasuke seems to get something new everytime (although it looks like he lost something)

Personally, I"ll admit I rolled my eyes over this topic because of the words sasuke will win, as if he could defeate Orochi and Jirayia easily.

He wouldn't win, but that is not to say that he would just lay down and take an ass kicking. He'll probably put some defense, but he won't be dominating anyone.

[AngryChubbs]

well anyone will put up resistance and defense...that doesnt mean they stand a chance. i still dont believe sasuke could defeat orochimaru by himself, much less orochimaru AND jiraya. and i for one personally think jiraya is much stronger than orochimaru so how could sasuke defeat either of them, much less them working together. some of these threads just need to be closed.

[khar2]

AND THEN WE GO AGAIN
"i think j-man is much stronger then orovhimaru" why, why do you think that, from where did you draw that conclusion???
with your ideas naruto<=sasu<oro<itachi<j-man<pain<madara
dont you think it stupid to conclude that there is big power difference between them, and doesnt it sond too much like a bdz power levels???
and just for the record how the hell would kihi plan to stand up naruto to pain, if sasu in 3 years under oro from being advance genin level to say jounin level and he isnt near kage level how do you think that naruo to go against pain, how big time skip should we have again???
by the way marq, you rule man, hitting the right spot:) peace people i am hitting the sack :)

[lazyboyrod]

Alright, alot to reply to... Luckily it all basically centers around Jiraiya's Sannin Mode.
---

Sannin Mode Jiraiya:

Ninjutsu
Elemental:

Jiraya has shown Earth, Fire, and "Oil".
Ma uses Fire as well.
Pa uses Wind.

I don't remember any water jutsu being used.

If Sasuke takes advantage of the fact that Wind attacks will always come from Pa... he can use Pa's wind against him to flank the entire group of them.

But of course... easier said than done.
---

Taijutsu
Jiraiya may hit like a "cannon"... but thats because the longer haired Pein basically flew directly into it.

Later on with the help of the Rinnegan... he blocks Jiraiya's punch one handed.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/15/

Pretty weak cannon.
---

Genjutsu:

Sauske broke out of the Tsukiyomi. I don't know what other credentials he needs to be named than the MOST proficient Genjutsu user in the manga right now. (It used to be Itachi... but we all saw what happened.)

Considering the Toad Song is auditory... Sasuke might just be able to find a way to negate it altogether...

Or trap Orochimaru into it's effects.
---

And again I say...
Sasuke can't possibly WIN this fight.

But it's not like he's a Genin.
He'll put up some definite resistance.

Ok, first that technique Pa used was water, almost the same techique Sasori used he pumped water at an extreme pressure and at a fine point, so fine that it cut through rocks, and eventually Pein's summon.

And yeah Itachi is one of the best Genjutsu users but Tsukyomi none the less is an eye techniquw, one Sasuke must have spent years trying to counter (he saw it once when Itachi got him in that hotel) but Ma and Pa's genjutsu was descrbed to be realy powerful and he has never seen it before he wouldnt know to cover his ears, and he would be traped easily, but seriously I dont think Jiraiya would have to go full power on Sasuke. O0

[DarkManSharingan32]

Ok, first that technique Pa used was water, almost the same techique Sasori used he pumped water at an extreme pressure and at a fine point, so fine that it cut through rocks, and eventually Pein's summon.

And yeah Itachi is one of the best Genjutsu users but Tsukyomi none the less is an eye techniquw, one Sasuke must have spent years trying to counter (he saw it once when Itachi got him in that hotel) but Ma and Pa's genjutsu was descrbed to be realy powerful and he has never seen it before he wouldnt know to cover his ears, and he would be traped easily, but seriously I dont think Jiraiya would have to go full power on Sasuke. O0

Part of this thread is the access to all of Jiraiya's jutsu...
He'd know exactly where that Genjutsu would come from.

And I read the page where Pa uses the jutsu... I mean it's never said what it is right?

Couldn't it be air compressed to a fine point just as easily as water?

It makes sense... since later on Pa uses Wind to "fan the flames".

:\

[IchigoSoul]

Firstly, underhyping J-man...How fast a character moves in a manga depends on who he is fighting. Lee fought against Sasuke and is way faster so he seem fast. Jiraya on the other hand seems to be moving at normal walking speed against Pein but consider this, pein is much faster than sasuke and in comparison, he seems normal but in the eyes of other, they might be two blurs...
Pls stop calling us sasuke haters, you are clearly in love with sasuke. No offense but what you said is with no proper back-up or evidence while we so call 'haters' point out everything there is.

[mestizo311]

Okay, this isn't even a fair fight. Sasuke only beat Orochimaru because of his weakend state. I won't even go into detail about how bad Sasuke would get his ass handed to him by either of the sannin. Sasuke is over hyped and over exposed. He could probably beat anybody in his age group but against a Kage level ninja, please.

[khar2]

then what are you proposing, another time skip so actually this generation could catch up to kage level ninjas??? what about tobi vs konoha, he would waste them is j-mans moves were blurs to sasu(not because he is sasu, but because he has developed sharingan), but wasting konoha team isn't public opinion???

[Scias]

OK GUYS.
First off I would like to make a general statement FOR ALL:

If we continue discussing this (nearly senseless) topic, we have to make an agreement about how the guidelines of this match would look like.

What situation do we have now, huh?
Are we talking about Sasuke knowing all of their jutsus preparing for a couple of time and then just shows up somewhere and it's like ....
OHHH LOOK ... Sasuke tried to get a cup of tea and saw Orochimaru and Jiraiya at the shop and starts fighting with them ... and wait OHHHHH ... this two guys that hated each other for years have teamed up just like that.

Come on guys. Thats not really what ever will happen. Even if Sasuke is a lucky bastard he never would have this much luck.

So if we want to compare SASUKE VS 2 (!!!) SANNINS, we have to make an appoinment that says that Sasuke can prepare and knows all jutsus and the 2 sannins don't know his jutsus but also accept themself as a team. And for a former 3-group sannin-team to not know how to fight together is nearly not possible. This guys if they want to will show real good teamwork.

That's it ... so stop saying stupid things like
"Ohh if Sasuke could tell Oro J-man told him that Oro's mum is a snake-hater and he would both kill each other ...".

You really must agree with me that such theories are just the biggest crap ever made.


Now back to topic (even if it's senseless and stupid)



Sannin Mode Jiraiya:

Ninjutsu
Elemental:

Jiraya has shown Earth, Fire, and "Oil".
Ma uses Fire as well.
Pa uses Wind.

I don't remember any water jutsu being used.

If Sasuke takes advantage of the fact that Wind attacks will always come from Pa... he can use Pa's wind against him to flank the entire group of them.

But of course... easier said than done.
---

Taijutsu
Jiraiya may hit like a "cannon"... but thats because the longer haired Pein basically flew directly into it.

Later on with the help of the Rinnegan... he blocks Jiraiya's punch one handed.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/15/

Pretty weak cannon.
---

Genjutsu:

Sauske broke out of the Tsukiyomi. I don't know what other credentials he needs to be named than the MOST proficient Genjutsu user in the manga right now. (It used to be Itachi... but we all saw what happened.)

Considering the Toad Song is auditory... Sasuke might just be able to find a way to negate it altogether...

Or trap Orochimaru into it's effects.

1) The guy who blocked Jiraiya's kick one handed is probably an expert or at least very well trained at Taijutsu since we didn't see him do some other stuff and he instantly rans into Jiraiya to attack him. Coz of Jiraiya stating the fact that all parts of pain just have 1 speciality his special abilty is obviously Taijutsu.

And if you keep that in mind, we can't really say that Jiraiya's kick was weak.

2) You really think Oro wouldnt keep Sasuke busy while Jiraiya sets up his Genjutsu?

Ohh and I forgot:
3) Sasuke has won against TSUKONOMI (a DOUJUTSU). And Itachi said it before that it's just possible to win against him if you have the same eyes. Ok he made the mistake that Tsukonomi wasn't a success against a lower sharingan but at least his opponent was Sasuke who has got a well trained (2nd Level) Sharingan and a real great will (which seems to be the key for breaking tsukonomi).

If it comes up with a whole different type of genjutsu, Sasukes chances should be nearly as bad as Peins.

[Igglemaru]

1. Think of how much trouble Pein had with J-man

2. Itachi fled from J-man with kisame in part one

3. Sasuke only beat itachi because itachi was apparently heavily wounded before the fight or something, he used all 3 eye doujutus and seemed to be knackered.

4. Sasuke S$%T a brick at that last moment when itachi collapsed next to him.

5. The power of plot no jutsu only works for the protaganist, so if it wasnt sasuke at the time then it would of worked.

[IchigoSoul]

^Agree. There is nothing in sasuke aresnal that can match up to jiraya's genjutsu. Even then, one-on-one would cause some problems for oro or jiraya but together, its like facing pein plus madara, impossible.

[Jammin]

Part of this thread is the access to all of Jiraiya's jutsu...
He'd know exactly where that Genjutsu would come from.

And I read the page where Pa uses the jutsu... I mean it's never said what it is right?

Couldn't it be air compressed to a fine point just as easily as water?

It makes sense... since later on Pa uses Wind to "fan the flames".

:\I assumed it was water the Pa frog used because to me it looks like water. But even if you don't agree that Pa could use it Gamabunta definitely can. Giving Jiraiya access to Fire, Earth, Wind, and Water.:)

Scias brings up a very good point. In order for Tsukuyomi to work Itachi has to look directly into Sasuke's eyes. Which allowed his sharingan to help him resist it. With any genjutsu that doesn't rely on direct eye contact he losses the advantage that helped him resist Tsukuyomi.

Sasuke doesn't push every opponent he fights the their limits either. In the case of Orochimaru and Itachi they were pretty close to their limits even before Sasuke showed up. As for Diedara the fact that Sasuke got injured at all fighting someone who's only jutsu was completely useless against Sasuke's lightning element can hardly be considered a point of pride.:notrust

Sasuke is quite strong. He has speed, complete mastery of lightning element, and is very skilled in the use of his sharingan. However when you compare his strength to the combined, or individual, powers of two legendary ninjas like Jiraiya and Orochimaru he does not look all that impressive.

Jiraiya's clear advantages are.
-skill at summoning
-access to far more elements
-stamina
-battle experience
-"sanin mode" which enables him to fire off three jutsu's at a time as well as other advantages

Orochimaru's clear advantages are
-skill at summoning
-access to far more elements
-an arsenal of kinjutsu
-battle experience
-"near immortality" when someone cuts him in half he has a good chuckle about it:D

[Black/Light]

I just want to know. . .HOW can this still be a debate?

Some people are running around yelling "your over hypeing J-man!" well Sas sit here. . . .and hasn't even killed a enemy yet AND in this event he would have the down fall of not having the Snake powers he got from using Oro like he did in his past fights.

Sas isn't weak. He can probly beat Sak, Ino, Ten Ten or most other people of his age group that we know of. But that doesn't mean he is anywhere near as strong as a Kage or a Sanin.

No ones a "Sas hater" for pointing out that he was about to piss him self before Itachi dropped dead in front of him from unknown, un-Sas made damage. No one is a "Sas hater" for pointing out that Oro was hours from nature death before Sas TRIED to kill him or that Dei had to kill himself for Sas to win by "defult".

Topic should be closed. . .
[hr]

I assumed it was water the Pa frog used because to me it looks like water. But even if you don't agree that Pa could use it Gamabunta definitely can. Giving Jiraiya access to Fire, Earth, Wind, and Water.:)

Scias brings up a very good point. In order for Tsukuyomi to work Itachi has to look directly into Sasuke's eyes. Which allowed his sharingan to help him resist it. With any genjutsu that doesn't rely on direct eye contact he losses the advantage that helped him resist Tsukuyomi.

Sasuke doesn't push every opponent he fights the their limits either. In the case of Orochimaru and Itachi they were pretty close to their limits even before Sasuke showed up. As for Diedara the fact that Sasuke got injured at all fighting someone who's only jutsu was completely useless against Sasuke's lightning element can hardly be considered a point of pride.:notrust

Sasuke is quite strong. He has speed, complete mastery of lightning element, and is very skilled in the use of his sharingan. However when you compare his strength to the combined, or individual, powers of two legendary ninjas like Jiraiya and Orochimaru he does not look all that impressive.

Jiraiya's clear advantages are.
-skill at summoning
-access to far more elements
-stamina
-battle experience
-"sanin mode" which enables him to fire off three jutsu's at a time as well as other advantages

Orochimaru's clear advantages are
-skill at summoning
-access to far more elements
-an arsenal of kinjutsu
-battle experience
-"near immortality" when someone cuts him in half he has a good chuckle about it:D

Quoted for the new page.

[Scias]

or that Dei had to kill himself for Sas to win by "defult".

Even if I'm no Sasuke fan I think this is a bit harsh.

Sasuke was overhelming Deidara in the fact that he had a lot of thunderstuff which gve him a clear advantage against an (only) earth jutsu user. But you also must keep in mind that he probably was at a disadvantage if we speak about the fighting type.
It's probably long range against a close or mid-range fighter. Even if his genjutsu could help him out, for quite some moves in the fight he never really had an advantage in this point (since it's also said that you need s.o. to support you against a long range fighter).

We could now discuss who gets the advantage between genjutsu and long range. I would say specialy against the Sharingan (doujutsu), you can give the advantage to long range since you can pretend to look in your opponents eyes.
But ok ... lets not overdiscuss this stuff.

I just wanted to say that Deidara blew himself up coz he really hated to loose against the sharingan twice (before it was Itachi and he won instantly) so he decided not to give up but to kill himself for revenge on the overhelming power of the sharingan.

And Sasuke got away with a real quick planned jutsu combination that both costs quite some chakra. So if he had this much left, there is no way Sasuke would loose if Deidara had fought on without using his suicide-attack.

[lazyboyrod]

Part of this thread is the access to all of Jiraiya's jutsu...
He'd know exactly where that Genjutsu would come from.

And I read the page where Pa uses the jutsu... I mean it's never said what it is right?

Couldn't it be air compressed to a fine point just as easily as water?

It makes sense... since later on Pa uses Wind to "fan the flames".

:\

True it could be wind.
But why would any ninja let someone know all of their techniques no matter how strong or confident he is.

[DarkManSharingan32]

True it could be wind.
But why would any ninja let someone know all of their techniques no matter how strong or confident he is.

Hey hey. I didn't make the thread.
But Sasuke is known to go into his fights with many strategies in place... Honestly, i have no idea what he would come up with if he were faced with this battle.

But as I've said... Sasuke can't win this fight.

[alias85]

uhhhh HELL no. A 100% Sasuke vs a 100% Oro or Jiraiya will lose 9 times out of 10. I really doubt, Sasuke could extract ALL the information about ALL these legendary Sannins techniques. These Sannin all come from the Leaf Village, meaning they know Uchiha strategies and techniques better than Sasuke could know theres. Look at the early skirmish with Itachi + Kisame vs Jiraiya. Itachi was in wayyy better condition back then AND he was with Kisame, yet they fleed meaning Jiraiya posed a serious threat even for the two of them. On top of that wasn't Itachi forced to use Amaterasu to burn through Jiraiya's ninjutsu?

I'm basically using the Itachi vs Sasuke fight, and the Jiraiya vs Pain fight to base my judgements off of.

I'd hate to say it, but this op has way too much sasuke favoritism, as much as I like Sasuke. Hell, I bet Tsunade could beat him.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Sasuke's uses Kirin on each of them..and they are toast O.o unless jiraiya or orochimaru surprisingly have susano'o.

[Decorus]

Sasuke would lose 10 times out of 10. He isn't that good. At best Sasuke is Jounin level and given how he couldn't even beat Itachi or Deidara, but rather they killed themselves, unless Jiraiya and Orochimaru somehow slipped in the tub and broke thier own necks I doubt he would last more then 3 seconds against either of them.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Sasuke would lose 10 times out of 10. He isn't that good. At best Sasuke is Jounin level and given how he couldn't even beat Itachi or Deidara, but rather they killed themselves, unless Jiraiya and Orochimaru somehow slipped in the tub and broke thier own necks I doubt he would last more then 3 seconds against either of them.

I dont think they can dodge a massive burst of lightening coming towards them

[Jammin]

Sasuke's uses Kirin on each of them..and they are toast O.o unless jiraiya or orochimaru surprisingly have susano'o.Read the beginning of chapter 392 it explains that Kirin is a one shot deal.

[AngryChubbs]

Sasuke's uses Kirin on each of them..and they are toast O.o unless jiraiya or orochimaru surprisingly have susano'o.

and oro and jiraya grab kites and attach keys to them right?

[Marq]

I dont think they can dodge a massive burst of lightening coming towards them


And you would think they would let him do it? Doubtful. IF we are going with that, Jirayia and Oro could summon and squash him if they wanted, and he would a flat uchiha pancake.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Read the beginning of chapter 392 it explains that Kirin is a one shot deal.

He can just use katons again if he has enough chakra
[hr]

And you would think they would let him do it? Doubtful. IF we are going with that, Jirayia and Oro could summon and squash him if they wanted, and he would a flat uchiha pancake.


and you would think that sasuke would let them summon? zetsu mentioned how fast he was at making seals when sasuke did the shadow shuriken technique against itachi.

[ShadowStrike]

He can just use katons again if he has enough chakra
<hr noshade size="1">



and you would think that sasuke would let them summon? zetsu mentioned how fast he was at making seals when sasuke did the shadow shuriken technique against itachi.

Initially, I didn't wanna get involved. But now I think you seriously think that Sasuke will take out two of the sannins in a flash. I doubt even Kishimoto dares to make that kind of assumption.

Orochimaru gave Sasuke his curse seal and knows his zeus strike.

Jiraiya knows all about genjutsu and how to fight such a nin. Itachi, who could have killed Sasuke if were for the eyes, didn't want to take a chance with Jiraiya.

It's fine to support a character or love him. It's ok to be a fanboy. But one should use logic and probability to reason instead of depending on every possible "what if"s.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Initially, I didn't wanna get involved. But now I think you seriously think that Sasuke will take out two of the sannins in a flash. I doubt even Kishimoto dares to make that kind of assumption.

Orochimaru gave Sasuke his curse seal and knows his zeus strike.

Jiraiya knows all about genjutsu and how to fight such a nin. Itachi, who could have killed Sasuke if were for the eyes, didn't want to take a chance with Jiraiya.

It's fine to support a character or love him. It's ok to be a fanboy. But one should use logic and probability to reason instead of depending on every possible "what if"s.

Im not a fanboy :\. And this thread says "what if" sasuke faced oro and jiraya and if he knew all their moves and such.

[Jammin]

He can just use katons again if he has enough chakra

and you would think that sasuke would let them summon? zetsu mentioned how fast he was at making seals when sasuke did the shadow shuriken technique against itachi.I will rephrase. In chapter 392 on the very first page Zetsu say's "The sky is clearing...It looks like that jutsu is good for only one shot." So if your arguing that he can use it repeatedly in a single battle your going against what the manga presented as a fact. I'm just going to skip over the fact that Sasuke used amaterasu's heat as fuel for Kirin(391 page 6).

As for him not letting them summon, even assuming he could stop one of them(doubtful:notrust), how on earth is he supposed to stop two highly skilled ninjas from making seals at the same time. Is he fighting a sanin with each hand now.:amuse

[AngryChubbs]

I will rephrase. In chapter 392 on the very first page Zetsu say's "The sky is clearing...It looks like that jutsu is good for only one shot." So if your arguing that he can use it repeatedly in a single battle your going against what the manga presented as a fact. I'm just going to skip over the fact that Sasuke used amaterasu's heat as fuel for Kirin(391 page 6).

As for him not letting them summon, even assuming he could stop one of them(doubtful:notrust), how on earth is he supposed to stop two highly skilled ninjas from making seals at the same time. Is he fighting a sanin with each hand now.:amuse

lets not forget...jiraya only has one hand...maybe this question was based on the possibility that both oro and jiraya only had 1 hand...

[Marq]

He can just use katons again if he has enough chakra
<hr noshade size="1">



and you would think that sasuke would let them summon? zetsu mentioned how fast he was at making seals when sasuke did the shadow shuriken technique against itachi.

Your point? Still doesn't stop them from doing techniques, (other than be an annoyance) and summon is Jirayia's forte.

[Black/Light]

Even if I'm no Sasuke fan I think this is a bit harsh. Hey, I calls them how I see them. Sas got blown up, a wing blown off, hit with tiny bombs and he had to chidori him self. IMO your enemy trying to do a kamikaze well you narrowly get away doesn't add up to much of a win.




And Sasuke got away with a real quick planned jutsu combination that both costs quite some chakra. So if he had this much left, there is no way Sasuke would loose if Deidara had fought on without using his suicide-attack. Im pretty sure that it was stated that he was out of chakra or didn't have much (he even stopped his shg like with the Itachi fight. He was also on his knees).

From what I gather that fore-arm tattoo is like the 5th's, it allows someone to collect chakra in it over time to use for something ( in this case the summoning of Manda seeing as Oro also had that tattoo when he summoned him). That makes sense IMO. . . .if he was falling over and didn't have his SHG on than logicaly he shouldn't be pulling this much chakra out of no where (and he would have been smarter if he used this chakra to stop Dei from chest eating that ball of clay).

In which case, Sas would stay true to the comments made and only have enuff chakra for a fast SHG genjutsu which would be use less if used on Dei.

[lazyboyrod]

OMG he cant beat them lets just leave it at that.

[Scias]

Sasuke's uses Kirin on each of them..and they are toast O.o unless jiraiya or orochimaru surprisingly have susano'o.

Probably when it comes up to the point where he can use Kirin, he doesnt know if it will be a success.
Jiraiya could use clones and Oro has a lot of more jutsus to escape (kawari or how it's called when you instantly leave your body and disappear into the ground, ressurection, uses the hell-gate shield and so on ^^).

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Probably when it comes up to the point where he can use Kirin, he doesnt know if it will be a success.
Jiraiya could use clones and Oro has a lot of more jutsus to escape (kawari or how it's called when you instantly leave your body and disappear into the ground, ressurection, uses the hell-gate shield and so on ^^).

Oh yeah..forgot about the triple rashomon by oro ..and ressurection :|
you have proved me wrong xD, thanks

[Decorus]

Lets not forget Jiraiya can create his own barrier, teleport by jumping into a frog, and is famous for his instant summonings of frogs designed for specific combat moves.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Lets not forget Jiraiya can create his own barrier, teleport by jumping into a frog, and is famous for his instant summonings of frogs designed for specific combat moves.

Crap lol. I did not think about my answer properly. You proved me wrong as well..xD

[DarkManSharingan32]

Nah... they don't have you completely.

If they haven't somehow stopped all the set-up for Kirin.
I believe is NO chance for them to pull something off to offset Kirin's ability to strike INSTANTLY.

Remember... Jiraiya's Barrier doesn't stop attacks. It just lets him detect any slight movement of his opponent.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/05/

AND Sennin mode takes a while to get into effect.
If Sasuke keeps up the pressure... Jiraiya may not complete the ritual needed.

[Decorus]

If Jiraiya could successfully evade 6 Peins I doubt Sasuke could keep much pressure on him.

[lazyboyrod]

If Jiraiya could successfully evade 6 Peins I doubt Sasuke could keep much pressure on him.

THANK YOU for tellin these people the obvious!
Some jut dont get it.

[Zeus-Tails]

I'm surprised this thread got as much attention as it did. The people going for Sasuke are either just playing devil's advocate for the fun of it or have a serious case of fanboyism.

[Decorus]

Thats me Captain Obvious.

[mestizo311]

then what are you proposing, another time skip so actually this generation could catch up to kage level ninjas??? what about tobi vs konoha, he would waste them is j-mans moves were blurs to sasu(not because he is sasu, but because he has developed sharingan), but wasting konoha team isn't public opinion???

I wasn't proposing a time skip. I'm talking here and now. Sasuke would be road kill. How can anybody honestly think the current Sasuke would stack up against Oro or J-man? I wasn't referring to a Sasuke 10 years from now, I'm referring to the current Sasuke. And the current Sasuke is not kage level.

[khar2]

my question is and was???
as stated in manga sasu is stronger then naruto, and you all are talking about naruto vs. pain, how is this fight suppose to happen if naruto is barely a jounin level???
so that i think you are wrong, couse unless you are we have to have another time skip and freeze madras plans or somehow sasu and naruto have to be stronger then a just a jounin level, see my point:)

[Jammin]

my question is and was???
as stated in manga sasu is stronger then naruto, and you all are talking about naruto vs. pain, how is this fight suppose to happen if naruto is barely a jounin level???
so that i think you are wrong, couse unless you are we have to have another time skip and freeze madras plans or somehow sasu and naruto have to be stronger then a just a jounin level, see my point:)Well, just because Sasuke was stronger than Naruto doesn't mean he still is. It's impossible to say for sure who's stronger just yet, since we haven't seen Naruto do a whole lot of fighting since he took out Kakuzu. Whom i should add was almost certainly kage level, seeing as he fought with the first hokage. Though he was softened up a good bit before Naruto got there.

Also alot of fights are more about the way the different abilities match up against one another more than who has the greater overall level of power. Like Sasuke versus Diedara. By all indications Diedara was stronger, but because of the element mismatch Sasuke won.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Also alot of fights are more about the way they the different abilities match up against one another more than who has the greater overall level of power. Like Sasuke versus Diedara. By all indications Diedara was stronger, but because of the element mismatch Sasuke won.

Deidara being stronger was because Deidara wanted to KILL sasuke, while sasuke didnt want to kill him but just ask him where itachi's whereabouts was. If sasuke wanted to kill Deidara, then it would have been a lot different.

[lazyboyrod]

Deidara being stronger was because Deidara wanted to KILL sasuke, while sasuke didnt want to kill him but just ask him where itachi's whereabouts was. If sasuke wanted to kill Deidara, then it would have been a lot different.

he probably didn't want to KILL Deidara at first, but once they started fighting he wanted him dead.

[Scias]

I bet you all understimate "speed" as an ability.
If it comes up with Sasuke vs Oro & Jman, my guess would be that they're all equal at sealing speed (maybe the sannins are a tip faster) and Sasuke is 1-2% faster with his movements. So if it comes up 2 on 1 there should not be a different in movements.

But since Sasuke is outnumbered and has way less jutsus to refer to, he would be done in a blink.

BUT ... for someone to discuss Naruto vs Sasuke is really stupid:
Like it was shown so far Sasuke seems to be 2 times faster then Naruto with movements and the difference in sealing speed may be real real big since Naruto seals his Jutsus with a speed of a genin. He nearly did not improve in this abilities.

[lazyboyrod]

I bet you all understimate "speed" as an ability.
If it comes up with Sasuke vs Oro & Jman, my guess would be that they're all equal at sealing speed (maybe the sannins are a tip faster) and Sasuke is 1-2% faster with his movements. So if it comes up 2 on 1 there should not be a different in movements.

But since Sasuke is outnumbered and has way less jutsus to refer to, he would be done in a blink.

BUT ... for someone to discuss Naruto vs Sasuke is really stupid:
Like it was shown so far Sasuke seems to be 2 times faster then Naruto with movements and the difference in sealing speed may be real real big since Naruto seals his Jutsus with a speed of a genin. He nearly did not improve in this abilities.

Jiraiya in Sanin mode is faster that Sasuke could ever hope to be in a long time, and on the Naruto thing, most of his jutsu dont require seals so um... yeah

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

he probably didn't want to KILL Deidara at first, but once they started fighting he wanted him dead.

Not really. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/362/09/
When they started fighting, sasuke was just fighting normally against him. Just before Deidara was about to blow himself up, sasuke asked him where Itachi is. He still wanted him alive to he could get he's answer. If sasuke wanted to kill Deidara he would have used all the techniques he did when he fought Itachi.

[Scias]

Jiraiya in Sanin mode is faster that Sasuke could ever hope to be in a long time, and on the Naruto thing, most of his jutsu dont require seals so um... yeah

KB, Sexy no Jutso and summonings need seals.
That's more than half of his jutsus :D

Oh wait and while I was listing hist jutsus, I just remind myself how good Naruto is.
If it comes to a fight he uses KB and rasengan ... yee you guys got me. There is no way that Sasuke knows his jutsus so far nor can someone ever make a strategy against this complicated mix of jutsus :darn

[khar2]

Scias my ironical friend i just love your comments, i am pissing my pants now, great:D
my point was that you are hyping sanins now
i read that j in a toad mode is faster then sasu will ever be??? just plz tell me where did you ever read that
my point was if pain matched j's speed in sanin mod that means that naruto at least 5 times slower then pain, how the fu... will naruto fight pain then, if we dont have time skip(another, at least a year) and pain is already ordered to capture naruto

personally i would be happy if naruto learned FRS during time skip, couse that 1 days training and gaining ultimate jutsu, with technique with a big loop hole was stupid and rushed from kishi

[lazyboyrod]

Scias my ironical friend i just love your comments, i am pissing my pants now, great:D
my point was that you are hyping sanins now
i read that j in a toad mode is faster then sasu will ever be??? just plz tell me where did you ever read that
my point was if pain matched j's speed in sanin mod that means that naruto at least 5 times slower then pain, how the fu... will naruto fight pain then, if we dont have time skip(another, at least a year) and pain is already ordered to capture naruto

personally i would be happy if naruto learned FRS during time skip, couse that 1 days training and gaining ultimate jutsu, with technique with a big loop hole was stupid and rushed from kishi

I didnt say that J man is was faster than Sasuke will ever be I said he is faster thant Sasuke could ever hope to be in a long time meaning it will take time for Sasuke to get to that leve. And Pein didnt realy match J mans spead, he just saw J man comming from 3 vantage points so he had the advantage and he summoned a barior type thing.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

this isn't a fair match. sasgay would be died in two pages

[Jammin]

You know, it really is amazing how many threads turn into an argument over who is stronger Sasuke or Naruto. Naruto has nothing to do with this thread at all and yet here we are.:s Nobody really knows which of the two is stronger at this point, except Kishimoto. Anyone who says that one or the other is definitely stronger than the other is just spouting opinions.



BUT ... for someone to discuss Naruto vs Sasuke is really stupid:
Like it was shown so far Sasuke seems to be 2 times faster then Naruto with movements and the difference in sealing speed may be real real big since Naruto seals his Jutsus with a speed of a genin. He nearly did not improve in this abilities.Naruto has the seal speed of a genin you say? How exactly did you come up with that. I'm curious, because i have seen nothing to indicate his seal speed at all. Do you have some facts backing you up or are you just completely making stuff up?:notrust

Comparing Jiraiya's speed to Sasuke is a discussion we just don't have the evidence for, in my opinion. We know Jiraiya is fast, even with three bodies pain couldn't keep up at with regards to taijutsu, we also know that Sasuke is fast. Beyond that there is just nothing we can use to compare the two.:)


:offtopic
What's with all this Naruto is slow crap. Naruto gets outpaced by Sasuke once when he meets up with him at Orochimaru's hidout, when he was severely injured, and suddenly you guys are talking as if he is the turtle of the ninja world. Not a single time before or since then has his speed been an issue for him, in fact he was fast enough to catch Itachi's corpse clone off guard during the sand arc, and Kakuzu who's weird tentacles even Kakashi recognized as being fast(337 page 15).:notrust

[khar2]

i just interfered naruto, so i can point that him and sasu aren't so weak as you state, just couse pain is after him and if they arent near kage level naruto would be toasted.
how excacly pain was slower then j i i saw pain was standing, toying with j
when sasu fought company (playing better word) yamto planned to go serious so sasu is at least at jounin level
ad kakazu battle, naruto didn't show spead, he just showed kage bushin and 2frs while super speed kakazu was standing there focusing all his strength on hitting real naruto from 300 KB's but ok

and at last naruto is weaker then sasu just couse he stated that they all were to weak, or better to say he is too strong and that didnt sound like they were too exhausted, but his growth was insane:) and since then naruto learned wind manipulation in 2 days(so i doubt that includes some justus, at least not some useful ) and frs (jutsu that only helps if your enemy is in wheel chair) :) peace bro, and you see this is bashing, but at least manga backed up:)

[Scias]

You know, it really is amazing how many threads turn into an argument over who is stronger Sasuke or Naruto. Naruto has nothing to do with this thread at all and yet here we are.:s Nobody really knows which of the two is stronger at this point, except Kishimoto. Anyone who says that one or the other is definitely stronger than the other is just spouting opinions.

Naruto has the seal speed of a genin you say? How exactly did you come up with that. I'm curious, because i have seen nothing to indicate his seal speed at all. Do you have some facts backing you up or are you just completely making stuff up?:notrust

Comparing Jiraiya's speed to Sasuke is a discussion we just don't have the evidence for, in my opinion. We know Jiraiya is fast, even with three bodies pain couldn't keep up at with regards to taijutsu, we also know that Sasuke is fast. Beyond that there is just nothing we can use to compare the two.:)


:offtopic
What's with all this Naruto is slow crap. Naruto gets outpaced by Sasuke once when he meets up with him at Orochimaru's hidout, when he was severely injured, and suddenly you guys are talking as if he is the turtle of the ninja world. Not a single time before or since then has his speed been an issue for him, in fact he was fast enough to catch Itachi's corpse clone off guard during the sand arc, and Kakuzu who's weird tentacles even Kakashi recognized as being fast(337 page 15).:notrust

Ok it's a bit unfair to call it "genin level", but Naruto is noone who has overaverage speed. And while his jutsus can't compete against Sasukes and while he is slower and less good in Taijutsu, he has simply no chance.

You must also keep in mind that it was forbidden for Naruto to use FRS or Kyuubi power again. And I doubt that Kishi is lame enough to let Naruto come up with an idea that lets him use FRS without any risk (at least not in such a short time like he learnd how to manipulate Rasengan with wind to FRS).
A high damage jutsu like this will always have a high risk. One could be an extreme high chakra loss or the other could be (like it's now) doing quite some damage to your own.

And even if Naruto has the option to use FRS against Sasuke.
There is no way that Sasuke (with his high speed and artistic movements) would let him get hit by FRS.

---
back to topic:

To make it short:
Sasuke = Jounin
Jounin = below Sannin

[Neuroff]

Ok it's a bit unfair to call it "genin level", but Naruto is noone who has overaverage speed. And while his jutsus can't compete against Sasukes and while he is slower and less good in Taijutsu, he has simply no chance.
Naruto had not one, but TWO opportunities to hit Kakuzu, who is faster than Kakashi, with FRS. His speed is way above average, especially with the Kyuubi eyes.


You must also keep in mind that it was forbidden for Naruto to use FRS or Kyuubi power again. And I doubt that Kishi is lame enough to let Naruto come up with an idea that lets him use FRS without any risk (at least not in such a short time like he learnd how to manipulate Rasengan with wind to FRS).
A high damage jutsu like this will always have a high risk. One could be an extreme high chakra loss or the other could be (like it's now) doing quite some damage to your own.
1. He wasn't forbidden to use the Kyuubi, that was only for the saving Sasuke arc. Guess why they have Yamato around for KB training.
2. What's lame is that Naruto can very obviously just make FRS with his Kage Bunshins, but nobody in the manga is smart enough to realize this.

[khar2]

"kakazu battle, naruto didn't show spead, he just showed kage bushin and 2frs while super speed kakazu was standing there focusing all his strength on hitting real naruto from 300 KB's but ok" -so much of his super speed

[Jammin]

Ok it's a bit unfair to call it "genin level", but Naruto is noone who has overaverage speed. And while his jutsus can't compete against Sasukes and while he is slower and less good in Taijutsu, he has simply no chance.
Again, all this stuff about Naruto's speed, jutsu, and taijutsu being at a levels where he can't compete with Sasuke are all assumptions which seem to be based on a meeting before his training and which he went into heavily wounded.

I have no objection to people saying that they think Sasuke is stronger or they think Naruto is stronger. But thats not what you are doing. Your are treating the idea of Sasuke being far stronger than Naruto as an established fact, which it is most certainly not. If you doubt me, read the "Naruto vs Sasuke who is stronger (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13829)" thread, all 54 pages of it, or just check that thread's poll. Last i checked it was leaning in favor of Naruto.:rant



To make it short:
Sasuke = Jounin
Jounin = below SanninI agree whole heartedly with this. My guess at Sasuke's level of strength in general terms been, and still is, at or slightly above Kakashi. Ahhh... It's so nice to be able to agree with something for a change.:D

[Anime Head 101]

"kakazu battle, naruto didn't show spead, he just showed kage bushin and 2frs while super speed kakazu was standing there focusing all his strength on hitting real naruto from 300 KB's but ok" -so much of his super speed

There were not 300 KB'S Fighting Kakazu

[Neuroff]

"kakazu battle, naruto didn't show spead, he just showed kage bushin and 2frs while super speed kakazu was standing there focusing all his strength on hitting real naruto from 300 KB's but ok" -so much of his super speed
Uh no. Having people attack you from all sides tends to lower the number of options you have. The first attack, Kakuzu took out the three KB because if he didn't they could hold him down for a free shot. The second time, Kakuzu realized that it wouldn't work and was forced to take out the Naruto holding the FRS. Naruto completely analyzed Kakuzu and created a strategy that Kakuzu could not possibly beat. And this was after being exhausted from training.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

I agree whole heartedly this. My guess at Sasuke's level of strength in general terms been, and still is, at or slightly above Kakashi. Ahhh... It's so nice to be able to agree with something for a change.:D

Yeah you are right.. I just got carried away with me saying Sasuke can just use kirin,s and the sannins would be finished. Now it makes much more sense. Just imagine oro running on the left hand side and Jiraiya running on the right side and they are both doing handseals and sasuke is in the middle..there would be heavy attacks coming towards sasuke.

[IchigoSoul]

Unless a naruto vs sasuke occurs in the manga, we cant say for sure but speed is in the eyes of the beholder. Sasuke seems fast to naruto(Might because he is injured, wasnt focusing much) but jiraya seem to be at normal speed against pein but dont forget, it is pein we are talking about. He cant be that slow, so in comparison, both of them might be moving faster then sasuke but seem slow.
[hr]
Beside, level isnt measured by capacity. If you are the strongest in your village, then you are the kage but doesnt mean jounins in another village isnt stronger than you. That might be possible. Jounin is just a rank, it doesnt show how strong you are(Althought to a certain extent it does but you cant use it to measure things). As kakashi stated, there are kids half my age and stronger than me. if so, the 6 year old kid might not even have a rank and still beat a jounin.

[khar2]

@ichigoSoul
man i support you but still PAIN is ordered to catch Naruto NOW, if naruto is at sasu level what can he possibly do to pain, who will protect him, see my point so i am just saying you are overrating big J, that is all i am saying, and as i said itachi, j-man, oro and pain are on the same level while sasu is a step back, enough not to be bitch slapped in a battle, enough to have a chance of wining in battle:darn, that was all i wanted to say
@AnimeHead 101
I know there weren't 300 kage bushins, i was using that metaphor to describe narutos strategy
@Neuroff
Aren't you being too enthusiastic, too big cheerleader:) i am just joking but i am thinking you are overpowering naruto and giving a bitch slap to kakazu, yes he did great, naruto did a fantastic job with his "arsenal of jutsus" i couldn't remember better use for his arsenal BUT then kakazu, he used of all his abilities worst possible option to defend himself against naruto, don't you think the same
kakazu thoughts "guy has SUPER POWERFUL jutsu that can kill anyone, crush anyones defense, but what would be best option, let see:
i am faster, i have much more elements, i have many hearts that i can divide and try to distract him but instead i will stand still, use my DEFENSE mode that he can crush and hope to kill real him in a scatter group of 300 KB, lucky me couse i am so experienced, most experienced ninja next to madara and hidan :))
see my point again, why am i saying that that battle wasn't directed in a best way
@Jammin
Why am i presuming that naruto was weaker than sasu, well he stated that himself when he get back, and surely when kakashi didn't oppose same was stated in yamatos report and to back up again, if that wasn't case why would tsunade tell a story about using drugs and unnatural growth, see my point since then naruto gain FRS, and wind chakra recomposition(or something like that), 3 years of using drugs dont you think it would be lame for naruto to be same strong, what is the point using drugs 3 years if they catch up so easily??? see my point again you dont go to dark side to not get anything from it, that it is dark side, get massive amount of power in short time, catch my drift:)
peace man:ninja:jbya
first and last are same so read them one after another, catch my drift peeps

[Jammin]

I think a get what your saying khar2 basically you say that if Jiraiya is so much more powerful than Sasuke then Naruto, who you believe to be no stronger than Sasuke, will not be able to compete with Pein who killed Jiraiya, without a timeskip or something to make Naruto stronger.

To put mathmatically to really confuse people:p Pein>Jiraiya>Sasuke> Naruto which means Pain is ,much much much > Naruto.

There are a few points that i would like to make about your supporting logic though.

Point 1)Naruto's strength is not fully known at this point in the manga. You are extrapolating from old information that may or may not still apply. So using that as evidence for an argument at all is more than a little questionable.:notrust

Point 2)Kakazu didn't switch to "defense mode" he switched to "long range mode" (chapter 341 page 3). He kept his distance from what he thought to be the threat and used a long range attack, the problem was he was overconfident that he had seen through Naruto's strategy. Naruto made a more accurate prediction of what his opponent would do and won because of it.:)

Point 3)Pein said that if Jiraiya had known their secret then he might have won. A secret that Naruto will probably know when he goes to fight Pein, thanks to Jiraiya. Talking about this battle before we even know what that secret is seems rather pointless to me.:notrust

Point 4)This is a thread about who would win in a hypothetical battle between Sasuke vs Jiraiya & Orochimaru. Sasuke would get one hour lead time and have knowledge all of the techniques that the two can use so nothing can take him by surprise. The battle is fought where the three Sanin battled on that open plain. I maintain that Naruto vs Pein has nothing to do with this thread or how this battle would playout.:)

[Zeus-Tails]

@khar2: Even if Kakuzu separated the hearts, 3 Narutos were still charging him (Kakuzu) so the 3 hearts would have to take care of them anyway and still be distracted. Speed is not a factor when you have to fight off numerous opponents at once, unless those opponents are extremely crappy.

[khar2]

@jammin
yes, you are getting my point
sasu vs. naru - well since that declarations naruto just got frs and days passed since then, i mean if naruto catch up to sasu in a few days that would be plain stupid, just as was stupid for sasu to confront itachi just a day after confronting dei, where he lost most of his chakra, personally i am not satisfied with kishi's rushing style
honestly i liked naruto and stoped after gara arc, why naru fight all powerful gara just a few hours after being fatigued form fight with neji(since then i was thinking kishi is speeding things up)
pain vs naru - it doesn't have but again i am just using it for a fact that kage level nin like j and oro aren't so powerful as you think they are....
@zeus-tails
speed is most crucial factor in every battle, simply to say, how to beet someone faster then you, none, why do you think yondi was called yellow flash - he shure was as good in other stuff and he got speedy gonzales nick, why it was most ussefull stuff in battle and he was most feared because his speed
speed is good especially when you fighting many enemies, midrange isn't( he maybe called it long range but that was hardly)

and jammi, fighting against two sanins is impossible, long ago this thread about is sasu on kage level or not, or does he has even chance to stand up, or to win???

[Zeus-Tails]

@jammin
yes, you are getting my point
sasu vs. naru - well since that declarations naruto just got frs and days passed since then, i mean if naruto catch up to sasu in a few days that would be plain stupid, just as was stupid for sasu to confront itachi just a day after confronting dei, where he lost most of his chakra, personally i am not satisfied with kishi's rushing style
honestly i liked naruto and stoped after gara arc, why naru fight all powerful gara just a few hours after being fatigued form fight with neji(since then i was thinking kishi is speeding things up)
pain vs naru - it doesn't have but again i am just using it for a fact that kage level nin like j and oro aren't so powerful as you think they are....
@zeus-tails
speed is most crucial factor in every battle, simply to say, how to beet someone faster then you, none, why do you think yondi was called yellow flash - he shure was as good in other stuff and he got speedy gonzales nick, why it was most ussefull stuff in battle and he was most feared because his speed
speed is good especially when you fighting many enemies, midrange isn't( he maybe called it long range but that was hardly)

and jammi, fighting against two sanins is impossible, long ago this thread about is sasu on kage level or not, or does he has even chance to stand up, or to win???

Naruto pretty much proved speed isn't the most crucial factor. Kakuzu was faster than Naruto (Kakuzu was also faster than Kakashi), but it didn't matter with Naruto's strategy. That pretty much breaks that point of yours

[Neuroff]

@Neuroff
Aren't you being too enthusiastic, too big cheerleader:) i am just joking but i am thinking you are overpowering naruto and giving a bitch slap to kakazu, yes he did great, naruto did a fantastic job with his "arsenal of jutsus" i couldn't remember better use for his arsenal BUT then kakazu, he used of all his abilities worst possible option to defend himself against naruto, don't you think the same
kakazu thoughts "guy has SUPER POWERFUL jutsu that can kill anyone, crush anyones defense, but what would be best option, let see:
i am faster, i have much more elements, i have many hearts that i can divide and try to distract him but instead i will stand still, use my DEFENSE mode that he can crush and hope to kill real him in a scatter group of 300 KB, lucky me couse i am so experienced, most experienced ninja next to madara and hidan :))
see my point again, why am i saying that that battle wasn't directed in a best way
EVERY opponent that Naruto has beaten has been faster than him. Haku, Kiba, Neji, Gaara, and now Kakuzu. Kakuzu could not do a thing against the strategy Naruto came up with. If he tried to take out the other Naruto's first again, he would have been hit by the KB. If he tries to take out the KB, he gets hit by the original.

It's sad that the point of that fight was to show Naruto catching up to Sasuke and surpassing Kakashi, but Kishimoto has made people hate the main character so much that the only thing people think about the fight is that Kakuzu was stupid.

[Zeus-Tails]

EVERY opponent that Naruto has beaten has been faster than him. Haku, Kiba, Neji, Gaara, and now Kakuzu. Kakuzu could not do a thing against the strategy Naruto came up with. If he tried to take out the other Naruto's first again, he would have been hit by the KB. If he tries to take out the KB, he gets hit by the original.

It's sad that the point of that fight was to show Naruto catching up to Sasuke and surpassing Kakashi, but Kishimoto has made people hate the main character so much that the only thing people think about the fight is that Kakuzu was stupid.

Well Neuroff, you can bring the horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[DarkManSharingan32]

I'll just say this:

Sannin is NOT a level... It's a title used to describe Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade...

Who are nothing more than glorified JOUNIN.

If you think about it this way, and bring them down off the amazingly high pedestal you create for them... You'll see that Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura are already far along on their paths to surpassing them.

It's the entire theme for Part II.
Young Surpassing the Old.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

I'll just say this:

Sannin is NOT a level... It's a title used to describe Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade...

Who are nothing more than glorified JOUNIN.

If you think about it this way, and bring them down off the amazingly high pedestal you create for them... You'll see that Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura are already far along on their paths to surpassing them.

It's the entire theme for Part II.
Young Surpassing the Old.

They arent Jonin, the 3 legendary sannis are S-class rank.

[TheChosenOne]

They arent Jonin, the 3 legendary sannis are S-class rank.

Yes they are, Jiraiya, Tsunade and Oro are jounin as far their is rank is concerned in Konoha. Sannin is just a title given to them by Hanzou for surviving their battle. :)

[Zeus-Tails]

Yes they are, Jiraiya, Tsunade and Oro are jounin as far their is rank is concerned in Konoha. Sannin is just a title given to them by Hanzou for surviving their battle. :)

For the sake of strength, Jiraiya, Tsunade and Oro are NOT at Jounin level but Kage level. Both Jiraiya and Oro were considered for the next Hokage and Tsunade IS the Hokage.

[TheChosenOne]

For the sake of strength, Jiraiya, Tsunade and Oro are NOT at Jounin level but Kage level. Both Jiraiya and Oro were considered for the next Hokage and Tsunade IS the Hokage.

Sure they are Kage level but are of Jounin rank. Kakashi can be argued as a Kage level ninja but as far as his rank is concerned he is strictly a jounin. :)

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

For the sake of strength, Jiraiya, Tsunade and Oro are NOT at Jounin level but Kage level. Both Jiraiya and Oro were considered for the next Hokage and Tsunade IS the Hokage.

Exactly :\ It even says that examples of S-Class members are the 3 sannins
[hr]

Sure they are Kage level but are of Jounin rank. Kakashi can be argued as a Kage level ninja but as far as his rank is concerned he is strictly a jounin. :)

But the Sannins are capable of being Hokages if they chose to become hokages. They have the abilities and Tsunade's rank is Hokage now..so yeah.

[TheChosenOne]

But the Sannins are capable of being Hokages if they chose to become hokages. They have the abilities and Tsunade's rank is Hokage now..so yeah.

They can't choose to become Hokage's, either the previous Hokage needs to appoint them or the two village leaders agrees. :)

There are many people capable of being Hokage but that doesn't dissent the fact that their rank for all intents and purposes is jounin or other (chunin or genin). Kakashi is capable of Hokage but doesn't mean he is one, he is a jounin. Naruto surpassed Kakashi, which makes him Kage level as well, but he is still of genin rank. :)

Tsunade is a hokage, but Jiraiya and Oro are not, just cuz they are Kage level ninja's doesn't change the fact that their rank is jounin (excluding Tsunade). :)

Genin > Chunin > Jounin > Hokage

it doesn't go Genin > Chunin > Jounin > Sannin => Hokage

Sannin = Three nin's which isn't a rank only a formal title. :)

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

They can't choose to become Hokage's, either the previous Hokage needs to appoint them or the two village leaders agrees. :)

There are many people capable of being Hokage but that doesn't dissent the fact that their rank for all intents and purposes is jounin or other (chunin or genin). Kakashi is capable of Hokage but doesn't mean he is one, he is a jounin. Naruto surpassed Kakashi, which makes him Kage level as well, but he is still of genin rank. :)

Tsunade is a hokage, but Jiraiya and Oro are not, just cuz they are Kage level ninja's doesn't change the fact that their rank is jounin (excluding Tsunade). :)

Genin > Chunin > Jounin > Hokage

it doesn't go Genin > Chunin > Jounin > Sannin => Hokage

Sannin = Three nin's which isn't a rank only a formal title. :)

Jiraiya was appointed, but he rejected. And if he was appointed to be the next hokage, that would mean that he was at Kage level. :\ Someone has to eb strong as a Hokage to be the next Hokage. And okay, their rank is Jounin(sigh). :)

[TheChosenOne]

Jiraiya was appointed, but he rejected. And if he was appointed to be the next hokage, that would mean that he was at Kage level. :\ Someone has to eb strong as a Hokage to be the next Hokage. And okay, their rank is Jounin(sigh). :)

I don't think he was appointed, he was asked but he rejected it. Sure, I agree on the fact that he is Kage level but that is only a level not an official rank. Sannin isn't a rank that ninja's can achieve it's just a title that Jiraiya, Oro and Tsunade recieved. :)

[Zeus-Tails]

This thread is speaking of power, not rank so TheChosenOne's argument is pointless. I don't think two ninjas are gonna meet up to fight and it will go like this:

Shinobi 1: I'm a Jounin
Shinobi 2: Darn! I overslept for my Jounin exam and I'm only a Chuunin still. I give up! You win, you can kill me.

[TheChosenOne]

This thread is speaking of power, not rank so TheChosenOne's argument is pointless. I don't think two ninjas are gonna meet up to fight and it will go like this:

Shinobi 1: I'm a Jounin
Shinobi 2: Darn! I overslept for my Jounin exam and I'm only a Chuunin still. I give up! You win, you can kill me.

Okay, I was only pointing out that Sannin isn't a rank as people think. As for the thread, if it was about power, then why state Knowledge of jiraiya and Oro's techniques prior to the fight. The thread starter gave Sasuke omniscient knowledge of Jiraiya's and Oro's techniques, if it was about power there would be no need. :p

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

I don't think he was appointed, he was asked but he rejected it. Sure, I agree on the fact that he is Kage level but that is only a level not an official rank. Sannin isn't a rank that ninja's can achieve it's just a title that Jiraiya, Oro and Tsunade recieved. :)

No, he was chosen to be the hokage because konoha needed a leader quikcly, but Jiraiya decided that it is not he's type of Job so he looked for Tsunade. :) Also, the 3 sannins are described as S-Class Ninjas, and S-rank is a rank =P. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sannin#S-Class If you go down to Ninja Ranks, and under that you see the S-rank, and if you read the last line from there, it says that the Legendary Sannin are all S-class ninja.

[Zeus-Tails]

Okay, I was only pointing out that Sannin isn't a rank as people think. As for the thread, if it was about power, then why state Knowledge of jiraiya and Oro's techniques prior to the fight. The thread starter gave Sasuke omniscient knowledge of Jiraiya's and Oro's techniques, if it was about power there would be no need. :p

Are you serious? Knowledge and power go hand-in-hand in these battles? If not, SHikamaru would be dead a long time ago.

[TheChosenOne]

Are you serious? Knowledge and power go hand-in-hand in these battles? If not, SHikamaru would be dead a long time ago.

It doesn't have to be the case in every instance, there are have been fights where the use of power was solitary, like KN4 vs Oro. :)


No, he was chosen to be the hokage because konoha needed a leader quikcly, but Jiraiya decided that it is not he's type of Job so he looked for Tsunade. :)

Sure he was chosen but you stated that he was appointed Hokage, which differ greatly. :)


Also, the 3 sannins are described as S-Class Ninjas, and S-rank is a rank =P. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sannin#S-Class If you go down to Ninja Ranks, and under that you see the S-rank, and if you read the last line from there, it says that the Legendary Sannin are all S-class ninja.

According to your link this is what it states

S-class ninja have gained power far beyond an average Jonin and earned a legendary status. This title is merely a class rather than an actual rank; the ninja's official rank with a village will usually still be Jonin

[Zeus-Tails]

It doesn't have to be the case in every instance, there are have been fights where the use of power was solitary, like KN4 vs Oro. :)


You haven't disproven my point in any way. As I said, knowledge and power go hand-in-hand.

[TheChosenOne]

You haven't disproven my point in any way. As I said, knowledge and power go hand-in-hand.

I wasn't trying to prove your statement wrong just stating that it doesn't have to be the case every time. :amuse

[Scias]

Point 1)Naruto's strength is not fully known at this point in the manga. You are extrapolating from old information that may or may not still apply. So using that as evidence for an argument at all is more than a little questionable.:notrust

It isnt?
Come on guys. If we don't know nearly all about Naruto so far then there would be no sense in the character developement.
He doesnt keep new moves a secret. He rushes with his best way he knows into his enemy and tries to make a strategy while getting his KB asskicked.

You just have to compare Deidara vs Konoha Team and Deidara (& Tobi) vs Sasuke.
Naruto was in a rush coz Gaara was in danger so I doubt that he wouldn't use everything he has to get Gaara as fast back as he would be able to.

For me this is a clear proof that he has no things up his sleeves so far.

Oh and it's also a good comparison to Sasuke if I continue the discussion of "do we really know their speed".

1) Sasuke is known for his speed close combat style. He was always the one from his generation who was overaverage at speed and taijutsu. At least he nearly was overaverage in ever aspect but he didnt know how to use genjutsu/doujutsu before the training with oro (exception = lee who has also put the effort for training ninjutsu in taijutsu, so it's not a fair comparison). And like it's shown in all fights and stated by every enemy, Sasuke really has even gotten way faster after the 3 years @ oro (Yamato, Deidara & Tobi said it, fight with Itachi & Oro leave hints).

2) Deidara vs Konoha:
He nearly got away from Kakashi (speed type fighter) who just got him down coz of mangekyou not coz Kakashi was fast. And Naruto vs Deidara seemed a bit equal if it comes up to speed. Deidara wasnt surprised for real while Naruto was rushing at him. That shows that Naruto is not slow, but not overaverage fast.

3) Deidara (& Tobi) vs Sasuke:
Right from the start Sasuke gave himself the disadvantage that he must catch Deidara alive. At the very start it was stated from Deidara and Tobi that he is unnormal fast and the whole fight Deidara had a problem with catching up to Sasukes movements.

4) Why is Naruto at normal speed but not fast?
First off all coz he dont need speed since he has mass KB. He has more than enough possibilities to defend and attack with unpredictable moves (since you can't know who's the real if he set up a lot of clones).
The second reason is cause it's obvious that Jiraiya trained him for the main purpose of Naruto's ongoing growrate which probably is to better control the Kyuubi chakra. It really seems to be a hard stuff to keep this under control since Narutos didnt seem to made a good progress.


To get from this Naruto vs Sasuke thing to Jiraiya & co:
I would say if we speak about Oro & Jiraiya it's just a normal speed since I doubt anyone of them to be a speed type. I would just say that since Oro is someone whose jutsus are the most important thing for him he is really fast at jutsu sealing but has just normal movements speed.
But if it's compared to the younger generation (like NAruto & co) it's obviously also very fast and it's just normal. When you train a lot more years than the young gen also the skills that are used secondary are better then the ones of the younger generation, if you get what I want to say ;)


I think that most of the people here thing that it's fair to compare the old folks with the young one. But you forget that we're talking about a comparison between a teenager who is in his main developement age (so he has a lot of more potential to grow up) and two real experienced and high ranked old mans that are 3 times older and who are high acknowledged for their combat skills.

For me this can't "really" compare to each other and it's just fair to say that the younger one has most often some disadvantage.

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

No, he was chosen to be the hokage because konoha needed a leader quikcly, but Jiraiya decided that it is not he's type of Job so he looked for Tsunade. :) Also, the 3 sannins are described as S-Class Ninjas, and S-rank is a rank =P. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sannin#S-Class If you go down to Ninja Ranks, and under that you see the S-rank, and if you read the last line from there, it says that the Legendary Sannin are all S-class ninja.

How does a ninja become kage level?

Only after they become kage, are they in the kage rank.

So obviously if Jiraiya became hokage which he chose not to then he would be kage level,
therefore you like say he is fit to be a hokage, meaning he is kage level type ninja.

same with oro.

[Anime Head 101]

Sannin Means that you are Kage level

[DarkManSharingan32]

I'll just say this:

Zabuza was an S-Class Ninja.
---

All S-Class really means... is that they are to be considered very skilled/dangerous ninja. This classification has nothing to do with the actual level given out by each village.

If you people really believe that "Sannin" is an actual Level... why don't all the other countries adopt the same system?
---

Geez. lol
[hr]

Sannin Means that you are Kage level

San-Nin

Means Three Ninja.
---

Thats all it means... and thats all it will ever mean. But over time people have attributed this sort of power status to it.

It's erroneous.
"Kage-Level", describes those who are prepared to lead an entire village in every sense of the word.

"Sannin-Level", describes a relationship between a ninja, and JIRAIYA, OROCHIMARU, AND TSUNADE.

Thats all. They are Jounin.
I mean... what would you all be saying if Hanzou never gave them that nickname?

[Jammin]

It isnt?
Come on guys. If we don't know nearly all about Naruto so far then there would be no sense in the character developement.
He doesnt keep new moves a secret. He rushes with his best way he knows into his enemy and tries to make a strategy while getting his KB asskicked.

You just have to compare Deidara vs Konoha Team and Deidara (& Tobi) vs Sasuke.
Naruto was in a rush coz Gaara was in danger so I doubt that he wouldn't use everything he has to get Gaara as fast back as he would be able to.Scias, you have missed my point completely. The "Naruto vs Sasuke who is stronger" thread wouldn't exist if their wasn't any disagreement as to who is stronger. Therefor no matter how strongly you may believe Sasuke is stronger than Naruto it is not an established fact. If you try and use something like that as a fact all it will do is hijack this thread and turn it into a second "who is stronger" thread and drag everything way off topic.

While i'm at it i might as well point out that some of evidence you presented in your post is based not on facts but your own opinions.



2) Deidara vs Konoha:
He nearly got away from Kakashi (speed type fighter) who just got him down coz of mangekyou not coz Kakashi was fast. And Naruto vs Deidara seemed a bit equal if it comes up to speed. Deidara wasnt surprised for real while Naruto was rushing at him. That shows that Naruto is not slow, but not overaverage fast.If your talking about the beginning of that fight. Deidara was riding a bird and trying to keep them at a distance and Naruto still managed to get to where he was and cut the bird in half in just the time that Kakashi distracted him with his MK sharingan. I'm not sure where your getting a comparison of speed out of this. He never succesfully evaded them on foot until he faked his own death.:blink



4) Why is Naruto at normal speed but not fast?
First off all coz he dont need speed since he has mass KB. He has more than enough possibilities to defend and attack with unpredictable moves (since you can't know who's the real if he set up a lot of clones).
The second reason is cause it's obvious that Jiraiya trained him for the main purpose of Naruto's ongoing growrate which probably is to better control the Kyuubi chakra. It really seems to be a hard stuff to keep this under control since Narutos didnt seem to made a good progress.So your evidence is your guess at what Jiraiya was teaching him and that you don't think he needed speed. Both completely without backing from the manga at all. Impressive.:notrust

Isn't the whole are the Sanin officially still Jounin just semantics. I mean, we know that they are all kage level. That anbu guy said "This is a battle at the kage level.", during the battle between Orochimaru and old man Sarutobi, so he definitely is and Jiraiya was asked to be the hokage so he was too. Who cares what they would put on their konoha tax returns under occupation/salary grade.:s

[khar2]

@Jammin
thank you for that last sentence, when i said kage lv i suppose you will know what that menas, but ok, somehow it wasted a whole page of forum on that thing.
i used sasu vs naru example to prove that pain and company arent so stronger then hebi and naru & co(just for that) - but just to add, what is point of using drugs, going on dark side "if every lazy bum can surpass you in no time"-just pointing few reasons and expressing myself with metaphor:) one observation jammin, you complain scias for not having a proof from manga, but your theory is just based on a simple detail, they didnt fight yet :)
@scias,
i love you man:notrust, mmmmh:notrust i like you, mmmmh i hate you bitch, i am not gey :) just joking again to loosen up atmosphere....
you seriously should start a naruto bashing thread :)
just joking again:).....
i see what you are saying and yo have some pretty good points, and it is truth, every nin uses his elementary advebtage(mean stamina, strength, speed....) surly big j train naruto for strength more couse he is best at wasting his almost infinitive chakra pool:)
so as you see strategies defer from type to type

AND peace and love peeps

[ShadowStrike]

sorry sasuke fanboys but sasuke is winning bcos of kishimoto... if i were the author, he'll be just a lil stronger than konohamaru ^^,

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Sasuke would not win this fight. He bruises quiet a lot :\

[khar2]

@Sasuke_Kai_92
??? what did you mean!!! you got me totaly bl.....????
@shadow strike
dont flatter your self you aren't so smart to think of some good character as sasu:) just poking you a little, maybe a little more:)

[IchigoSoul]

Just to say, sasuke wouldnt stand a chance against both of them. One-on-one, sasuke might be able to push them a bit, but not enough to win one of them, two of them together is a bit overkill.

[khar2]

honestly know konohamaru would beat j and oro to pulp :)
they simply suck:)

[MegaX]

sorry sasuke fanboys but sasuke is winning bcos of kishimoto... if i were the author, he'll be just a lil stronger than konohamaru ^^,

So instead of Sasuke being overpowered, you'd make him underpowered? So much for a happy medium...

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

sorry sasuke fanboys but sasuke is winning bcos of kishimoto... if i were the author, he'll be just a lil stronger than konohamaru ^^,

I think Sasuke is good to be the second main character. After all you do have to have a second main character.. Sasuke is like Vegeta. Whats wrong with that :|

[TheChosenOne]

I think Sasuke is good to be the second main character. After all you do have to have a second main character.. Sasuke is like Vegeta. Whats wrong with that :|

Well didn't Vegeta lose like every single fight he has ever fought, he is hardly Sasuke. :)

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Well didn't Vegeta lose like every single fight he has ever fought, he is hardly Sasuke. :)

I mean about personality. Vegita is a rival to Goku, same as Sasuke to Naruto when it comes to power. And Vegita did win against Goku when he was Majin and Goku was SSJ2. lol

[Decorus]

Actually Goku let him win, Goku could have gone SSJ3, but chose not to.

[Sasuke_Kai_92]

Actually Goku let him win, Goku could have gone SSJ3, but chose not to.

It would have lowered he's time on Earth :) thats why he didnt go SSJ3.

Anyway back to Naruto

[lazyboyrod]

I mean about personality. Vegita is a rival to Goku, same as Sasuke to Naruto when it comes to power. And Vegita did win against Goku when he was Majin and Goku was SSJ2. lol

Yeah but Goku was never looked down upon by Vegita, as Sasuke looks down on Naruto power wise. Vegita was only stronger then Goku for a few minutes when he walked out the time chamber during the cell caga, but once Goku went in he prolly surpassed Vegita in like 3 minutes, Unlike Naruto who has spent most of Shippuuden 'weaker than Sasuke'

[IchigoSoul]

true...Vegeta is there to sort of be influnced by naruto, same way as sasuke.

[gr2]

i think there is mistake topic must be Sasuke &Oro Vs Jiraiya (they misplace Vs, &). then its a perfect topic other wise its one of the worst topic in manga helpers. "Main character wont be developed in short span of time."(Naruto). Every think sasuke win bcz of sharingan and prior information .?? Even if he has MS he wont be match for Jiraiya himself. if i remember correctly sasuke says that he defeated Oro because he was in very weak conditions. Sharingan is no use against Jiraiya. Even if Sasuke takes one decade then there is no way he win against Jiraiya.Even when he fight with Pein he not at his full potential. he always to try to find his identity just like spy or informer. Jiraiya know every technique that Minato knows.If list out these things it will go on........
So stop this thread there is no need to discuss about weakling some one like Sasuke with legendaries:D . Some people are saying Kirin is strongest ? wat the hell is this Jiraiya just summons a frog stomach .It wont be effect him...... so topic must be Sasuke &Oro Vs Jiraiya ...
Please change topic name if possible :D

[Zeus-Tails]

How can Sasuke possibly prepare for Hermit mode? Jiraiya moves fast as hell and makes a huge Rasengan in a split second. 90+% of shinobi cannot defend against that. Only reason Pein did was because Jiraiya hit the fat one with it and we all know the fat one absorbs jutsus. Sasuke would neither be able to dodge that or withstand it.

[khar2]

lucky we for having someone to rise j-man into heights :)
hmmm pretty good conclusions, where did you read them, maybe your fan fiction naruto manga, hmmmm ok ;)

[DarkManSharingan32]

How can Sasuke possibly prepare for Hermit mode? Jiraiya moves fast as hell and makes a huge Rasengan in a split second. 90+% of shinobi cannot defend against that. Only reason Pein did was because Jiraiya hit the fat one with it and we all know the fat one absorbs jutsus. Sasuke would neither be able to dodge that or withstand it.

Your right.

Except that Sasuke is in the Top 10% of ninjas. Theres no real way to "defend" against that move.. aside from what Pein did, or summoning some huge thing to block it.

With Sasuke's shunshin...
I'm sure he's be able to dodge it.

I wonder what would happen if he tried to Chidori-Ken that sucker dead in the center, and extend himself backwards...

[Zeus-Tails]

Your right.

Except that Sasuke is in the Top 10% of ninjas. Theres no real way to "defend" against that move.. aside from what Pein did, or summoning some huge thing to block it.

With Sasuke's shunshin...
I'm sure he's be able to dodge it.

I wonder what would happen if he tried to Chidori-Ken that sucker dead in the center, and extend himself backwards...

Wow, there's no getting away from your BS, is there? Top 10%, right? Obviously Sasuke can summon something big enough to defend in a matter of seconds? Or he can dodge in a split second? The panels that showed Jiraiya moving and making that huge Rasengan implied he was moving EXTREMELY fast, but of course you as a Sasuke fanboy has Sasuke moving as amazing speed to dodge even though he probably doesn't have time to react.

Please don't try to say you're not a Sasuke fanboy. Your posts have shown that you are and we can no longer take you seriously.

[Raizen]

Wow, there's no getting away from your BS, is there? Top 10%, right? Obviously Sasuke can summon something big enough to defend in a matter of seconds? Or he can dodge in a split second? The panels that showed Jiraiya moving and making that huge Rasengan implied he was moving EXTREMELY fast, but of course you as a Sasuke fanboy has Sasuke moving as amazing speed to dodge even though he probably doesn't have time to react.

Please don't try to say you're not a Sasuke fanboy. Your posts have shown that you are and we can no longer take you seriously.
Serious these uchiha kiss-ass are F*ing ridiculous. All they do is make up BS to make their little sasgay seem like GOD.

That rasengan by J-man would obliterate those uchiha asses b/c J-man rules!!
Not only is it fast but it deadly. A small rasengan that naruto uses can beat most ninjas bu the one by J-man can most definitely take out anyone hit by it, sasuke included. The uchihas are made to be these powerful ninjas but in reality all they do is mope, whine, back stab their village and friend, and use overpowered eyes that the author gives them. We have yet to see sasuke do anything other than fight battle in which his opponents beat his own ass by himself. So really all battles sasuke fight is Sasuke & LUCK & Kishi & the opponent stupidity and bad health vs Opponent

[khar2]

hmmm again,taking serious someone, for everything i say i try to point it with manga and always, but you are just bashing and insulting others and then you are saying that others cant be taken serious:) hmmm again:notrust

[Zeus-Tails]

Serious these uchiha kiss-ass are F*ing ridiculous. All they do is make up BS to make their little sasgay seem like GOD.

That rasengan by J-man would obliterate those uchiha asses b/c J-man rules!!
Not only is it fast but it deadly. A small rasengan that naruto uses can beat most ninjas bu the one by J-man can most definitely take out anyone hit by it, sasuke included. The uchihas are made to be these powerful ninjas but in reality all they do is mope, whine, back stab their village and friend, and use overpowered eyes that the author gives them. We have yet to see sasuke do anything other than fight battle in which his opponents beat his own ass by himself. So really all battles sasuke fight is Sasuke & LUCK & Kishi & the opponent stupidity and bad health vs Opponent

I just re-looked at the part where he made the huge Rasengan and he moved in faster than I initially thought.

Take notice at when he jumped out of his sandals here (he's on the wall when he does): http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/11/

Next page, when he has the Rasengan formed (bottom right panel) and then to the left of it you see that his sandal hasn't moved from when he jumped out of it: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/12/

Do you know how friggin fast that is? He jumped out of his sandals, landed on the wall, darted and made a huge Rasengan before the sandals even started to fall. He's doing all this in like a friggin second! So it takes even less than a second to dart and make the huge Rasengan (jumping out of the sandals back onto the wall would take the rest of the second).

Seriously, there is like no way you can dodge that unless you have an absorption technique or something to block on BEFOREHAND, because once he decides to do it, you're screwed. I don't even think Susanoo could prevent that because that Susanoo thing swings it's sword/hand/whatever to block it and I'm pretty sure it's not going to do that in a split second.

Forget anything what Sasuke fans say. Sasuke has 0 chance against Jiraiya. Even if Sasuke has knowledge of Jiraiya doing this so fast, Sasuke would have to have something to defend himself up at ALL times (genjutsu probably won't work so well because the frogs can find you even if you're invisible; it seems they have keen chakra-sensing skills which is why they found Pein's chameleon).

[DarkManSharingan32]

Zeus.
Besides being a sub-par flaming moron.
I believe you missed all the parts where I said there is no way Sasuke can win this fight.
I'm just trying to point out the fact that it's rather unlikely that he gets insta-pwnd, especially with the level of skill he is showing.

And Sasuke IS in the top-tier.
Don't believe me... you can't even name 5 (alive) shinobi stronger than him... nevermind 10/100.
----

It's amazing...
Kishi writes these believable fights, and all you guys do is call Sasuke weak because of it.
Now what would you be saying if Sasuke had straight pwnd Deidara and Itachi?

Oh, Kishimoto is sooo unfair... Sasuke is his favorite character, boohooyadayada.
Kishimoto balances out all of his characters... and hes done so with Sasuke. Move on.

[Marq]

Zeus.
Besides being a sub-par flaming moron.
I believe you missed all the parts where I said there is no way Sasuke can win this fight.
I'm just trying to point out the fact that it's rather unlikely that he gets insta-pwnd, especially with the level of skill he is showing.

And Sasuke IS in the top-tier.
Don't believe me... you can't even name 5 (alive) shinobi stronger than him... nevermind 10/100.
----

It's amazing...
Kishi writes these believable fights, and all you guys do is call Sasuke weak because of it.
Now what would you be saying if Sasuke had straight pwnd Deidara and Itachi?

Oh, Kishimoto is sooo unfair... Sasuke is his favorite character, boohooyadayada.
Kishimoto balances out all of his characters... and hes done so with Sasuke. Move on.

My ass he does. :p

[DarkManSharingan32]

My ass he does. :p

Really?
Lets just go through a short list.

Sasuke/Uchihas*:
Vaunted growth in part II... seemingly balanced by loss of CS.
* MS overusage results in blindness.

Itachi:
All his badassness from part I is balanced out by what ever happened recently... which looks to be explained by Madara.

Naruto:
Kyuubi powers comes with the risk of hurting his allies.

Kimimaro:
Arguably the toughest bloodline to beat... balanced out by his sickness, which claimed his life.

Sandaime:
Despite all of his knowledge and power... he made the crucial mistake of believing too much in Orochimaru.

That cost him his life.

Kakashi:
NO doubt one of the most talented shinobi out there... but looks to be in the lower tier when it comes to chakra capacity. IN addition to using highly taxing MS jutsu.

Oro:
A beast... until his body begins to reject him.
---

Need I go on?

[Marq]

Techincally you are wrong.. balances EVERY character? Me dont' think so, part one, everyone had their strengths and weaknesses(the rookie 9 and team gai) and they all looked like the could take on each other (excep the kunoichis)..

part 2 wise, thrown out the window in terms of balance. So far we've seen jack squat from the other people's ablities etc, to determine their balances of power. But.. I'll give Kishi credit for making a few or so characters balanced. (even if the uchiha are rigged to a certain extent the cost of blindless makes up for it I guess.)

[ninjabot]

*Slowly begins to clap*

To add to the previous amount of pwn in DarkMan's post, I'd like to add that Hermit mode isn't nearly as Uber as everyone wants to believe, and I can't for the life of me understand why Itachi is afraid of Jiraiya, unless he had a defense against Genjutsu. Which he already stated he wasn't a Genjutsu type like Naruto...anyway, 4 tail Kyuubi Naruto is more menacing than Hermit Mode.

Anyway, it was a terrible mistake to make a Sasuke vs. 2 Sannin fight. Though it's not in the least implausible that he could beat Jiraiya in a one on one fight. Not likely, no. But not impossible.

[DarkManSharingan32]

Techincally you are wrong.. balances EVERY character? Me dont' think so, part one, everyone had their strengths and weaknesses(the rookie 9 and team gai) and they all looked like the could take on each other (excep the kunoichis)..

part 2 wise, thrown out the window in terms of balance. So far we've seen jack squat from the other people's ablities etc, to determine their balances of power. But.. I'll give Kishi credit for making a few or so characters balanced. (even if the uchiha are rigged to a certain extent the cost of blindless makes up for it I guess.)

Looks like I need to go on.
I'll try to list only Part II characters.

Hidan:
Absolute moron. Gets caught in the same technique a dozen times... Pretty sure that balances out his immortality.

Kakuzu:
In part II... he definetly showed the most domination. I'll say that his over-confidence in his abilities is his downfall.... He even says, "All I have to do is stay away form the one carrying out the jutsu"... faulty assumption. That LINE forshadows exactly what Naruto is going to do...
(And why he didn't fire of a combination Wind/Fire blast from his mask at Naruto when he was forming the 2nd FRS is beyond me. Why LET Naruto make the jutsu in the first place...lol)

Deidara:
Horrible in close quarters... and unstable mentally. But his bomb techniques are no doubt dangerous, and he will do anything to "win".

Shikamaru:
Has to trap his opponents to be successful... and there is the Natural weakness of Kage Mane... being in a place with no shadows.

Chouji:
Still pure tai. Any long-ranger can pick him apart from afar.
---

You know what... The Konoha teams still have the same strengths/weaknesses as in Part 1. Why would Kishi change that?

Apart from Neji... who has done a bit to clean up his Mid-Long range deficiencies... but thats just one straight ahead attack. For the most part he can't fight extensively against long-range experts... someone like Deidara.

[Decorus]

Except Neji beat a long range expert in part one who was clearly much better then him....

Even if Kakuzu had done a combo blast on the Naruto's doing the 2nd FRS, Naruto would still have taken him out from behind with the 3rd FRS. There was nothing Kakuzu could do except die at that point.

Hidan didn't stupidly fall for the same jutsu over and over, Shikamaru being the tactical genius he was had a wide variety of options to employ it and planned every detail of thier encounter in advance right down to having Hidan whack his own teammate.

[Zeus-Tails]

Looks like I need to go on.
I'll try to list only Part II characters.

Hidan:
Absolute moron. Gets caught in the same technique a dozen times... Pretty sure that balances out his immortality.

Kakuzu:
In part II... he definetly showed the most domination. I'll say that his over-confidence in his abilities is his downfall.... He even says, "All I have to do is stay away form the one carrying out the jutsu"... faulty assumption. That LINE forshadows exactly what Naruto is going to do...
(And why he didn't fire of a combination Wind/Fire blast from his mask at Naruto when he was forming the 2nd FRS is beyond me. Why LET Naruto make the jutsu in the first place...lol)

Deidara:
Horrible in close quarters... and unstable mentally. But his bomb techniques are no doubt dangerous, and he will do anything to "win".

Shikamaru:
Has to trap his opponents to be successful... and there is the Natural weakness of Kage Mane... being in a place with no shadows.

Chouji:
Still pure tai. Any long-ranger can pick him apart from afar.
---

You know what... The Konoha teams still have the same strengths/weaknesses as in Part 1. Why would Kishi change that?

Apart from Neji... who has done a bit to clean up his Mid-Long range deficiencies... but thats just one straight ahead attack. For the most part he can't fight extensively against long-range experts... someone like Deidara.

Wow, talk about a post full of nonsense. Hidan may act out, but he's not a moron. There was a good analysis of Hidan around this forum. I suggest you look for it.

Kakuzu was overconfident, which led to his downfall? Jesus Christ, there is no help for you. There is no reason to repeat why Kakuzu did the smartest thing possible in the situation. You obviously won't understand it.

Deidara doing anything to win or being "unstable mentally" is the same as every shinobi in this manga. If they were fighting 1-on-1 they will do anything to kill the enemy. They're not just going to say "Hmmm, I'm tired. I'm gonna concede and leave now." If you say Deidara is "unstable mentally" for how he acted in a death match then almost every shinobi in this manga is "unstable mentally."

Nothing is balanced out here. People have specialties and obligatory weakness. That doesn't mean it balances. For instance, Kakuzu was pretty much strong all-around (can go from close to mid to long-range and has strong elemental attacks), however Naruto played smart and put Kakuzu on the defensive, then put him into a corner in which he could not possibly survive. Kakuzu made the best choice but Naruto's plan was just 100% good unless his jutsu randomly fizzled again.

[khar2]

ass you pissing about someone hyping sasu, you are hayping j-man,
hidan was a moron because he used his special technique all the time,
kakazu was stupied because he didnt move, and narutos FRS didnt fizzled. he isnt capable to hold it longer so to speak kakazu should move and attack, not to wait and attack
BALANCING, kishi is balancing, sure
the reason sasu is stronger as it was stated was because of drugs and he is probably strongest of all, others are on the same level (ex team 7,....) probably

[Zeus-Tails]

ass you pissing about someone hyping sasu, you are hayping j-man,
hidan was a moron because he used his special technique all the time,
kakazu was stupied because he didnt move, and narutos FRS didnt fizzled. he isnt capable to hold it longer so to speak kakazu should move and attack, not to wait and attack
BALANCING, kishi is balancing, sure
the reason sasu is stronger as it was stated was because of drugs and he is probably strongest of all, others are on the same level (ex team 7,....) probably

Does anyone listen to what this man says? He just seems like some random guy who can't even put a coherent thought together.

[Raizen]

ass you pissing about someone hyping sasu, you are hayping j-man,
hidan was a moron because he used his special technique all the time,
kakazu was stupied because he didnt move, and narutos FRS didnt fizzled. he isnt capable to hold it longer so to speak kakazu should move and attack, not to wait and attack
BALANCING, kishi is balancing, sure
the reason sasu is stronger as it was stated was because of drugs and he is probably strongest of all, others are on the same level (ex team 7,....) probably
I really am trying hard not to be rude but everything u post is either BS or nonsense.

Kakuzu didn't dodge?? Naruto attacked way too fast for him to dodge. He was dodging from the clones and then just as he recovered himself naruto destroyed him from behind. Naruto attack one after another in a non-failing series that completely overwhelm kaukuzu. That show how smart he is.

Also to state sasuke is the strongest is such a laughing matter I won't even respond

[ninjabot]

No...actually, Kakuzu was rather stupid. If I have 2 guns in my hand and want to kill you, I'd shoot you with both guns. Not throw them at you. That's what Kakuzu did. He launched his last 2 monsters at Naruto , leaving himself wide open from behind. He SAW that Naruto specializes in KB and didn't have the S-rank criminal ninja sense to say: "Hmm...I bet there are clones around here somewhere. Better not take the chance of lieaving myself wide open."

The most basic genin strategy is to distract someone with a clone and attack their blindside. OR use a clone to draw an attack at itself to learn the foe's abilities. But apparently noone told Kakuzu that. He was alive since the founding of Konoha (maybe before that), yet he doesn't know Ninja 101? Please.

[khar2]

my point exactly ninjabot, but then i am BS , layer and stupid...
it doesn't matter who you love, who you hate, but it clearly that sasu showed more naruto, and for BS what would be point on emphasizing drug and forbidden jutsu thing for a half a chapter and a training to catch up to sasu if he wasn't stronger then naruto

[Zeus-Tails]

Raizen and Decorus, these guys are hopeless. It doesn't surprise me that the Sasuke fanboys would stick to the excuse that Kakuzu is dumb and not be able to understand the fight. All they see is that since Kakuzu ultimately loss to Naruto, then he's not good, which shows their ignorance. I think the sensible people looking at this thread saw my analysis of Kakuzu's actions and realize that Kakuzu did the smartest thing possible. However, there is no reason to keep repeating to the fanboys. We're basically talking to the wall. Leave them be. They aren't worth responding to.

[khar2]

interesting, are you trying to provoke me (us),
what was point of your last reply, trying to point you are right by ignoring someone that disagree with you, simply cant figure you at all, any point to ..... forget it
simply quote post and bold things with what you disagree and explain why if you are so smart and if you think you are correct

[Decorus]

No...actually, Kakuzu was rather stupid. If I have 2 guns in my hand and want to kill you, I'd shoot you with both guns. Not throw them at you. That's what Kakuzu did. He launched his last 2 monsters at Naruto , leaving himself wide open from behind. He SAW that Naruto specializes in KB and didn't have the S-rank criminal ninja sense to say: "Hmm...I bet there are clones around here somewhere. Better not take the chance of lieaving myself wide open."

The most basic genin strategy is to distract someone with a clone and attack their blindside. OR use a clone to draw an attack at itself to learn the foe's abilities. But apparently noone told Kakuzu that. He was alive since the founding of Konoha (maybe before that), yet he doesn't know Ninja 101? Please.

Kakuzu was hardly stupid. I've noticed that the immediate thought people have is if Naruto outsmarts his opponent the opponent has to be an idiot. Hidan is stupid, because Shikamaru outsmarted him too.

Kakuzu made a tactical error he assumed that Naruto was trying the same thing again and this time he would make sure he did not fall for the trick. The problem came about that Kakuzu had no way to know which of the 6 Narutos was the real one. He assumed the ones attacking him were the decoys, not realizing that Naruto being a genius himself had planned for that and was amid the decoys using the other 3 creating the jutsu as a decoy to place himself in a situation where he could create FRS and make a clean attack using his superior speed. Yes Naruto has superior speed, because in the time it took for Kakuzu to take out all 3 Kage Bunshin Naruto created FRS and got inside Kakuzu's range preventing Kakuzu from avoiding the attack.

The problem is lets say Kakuzu figured out that the 3 creating the FRS was a diversion from the real Naruto so he turns his back to deal with the 3 who were the "Decoys" and ignores the 3 KB then he would get nailed by the KB with FRS. Its a multilayered trap that I guess you just don't have the ability to understand....

Now whats really funny is in order for Naruto to do this he has to evenly split his chakra amid 6 different clones. Keep in mind 2 of the 3 people in his FRS team are not expending any chakra at all, they are just manipulating the chakra for him. KB A is doing the Elemental Manipulation, KB B is doing the Shape Manipulation and Naruto is supplying the chakra. So FRS uses less then 1/6th of Naruto's chakra....

[Jammin]

There is a major point about this whole "Whether or not Kakuzu was dumb for not using his fire+wind attack on immediately on Naruto." conversation that seem to be getting completely overlooked. Killing Naruto was not an option for Kakuzu. A dead Jinchuuriki=a ruined akatsuki plan and a very pissed off Uchiha Madara. He had to take Naruto alive so trying to turn him to ash would not exactly be a fantastic idea.

[khar2]

i wanted to point that wind+fire but again jammin is right kakazu didnt want to kill naruto:::
no one is undermining narutos intelligence but if we take that fight it was disiponting, kakuzu could do much better, he could move, not to stand there like virgin marry, and fall for basic trick in a book
narutos intelligence isnt questionable but he is raping his 2 jutsus, every prepared ninja could beat him(if you look better hidan was defeated for that same reason) and only thing he did is to send few clones before to scout and then again he start rushing with clones....
so it wasnt all time fight not he is the most brilliant ninja in the world that was all most of people said, in every aspect i think sasu for now showed more

[ninjabot]

Raizen and Decorus, these guys are hopeless. It doesn't surprise me that the Sasuke fanboys would stick to the excuse that Kakuzu is dumb and not be able to understand the fight. All they see is that since Kakuzu ultimately loss to Naruto, then he's not good, which shows their ignorance. I think the sensible people looking at this thread saw my analysis of Kakuzu's actions and realize that Kakuzu did the smartest thing possible. However, there is no reason to keep repeating to the fanboys. We're basically talking to the wall. Leave them be. They aren't worth responding to.

So...I call a fictional character stupid, and your sophisticated, mature reaction was to instead of prove me wrong through manga scans and logical reasoning, call me names out of context? I'm ignorant, worthless, non-sensical and a fanboy? And you came to this conclusion from two paragraphs of my writing? Insulting me instead of proving me wrong...I gotta say I've never experienced this kinda childishness online.

Ever.

Good luck having anyone take you seriously now that they know your level of reasoning. And I sincerely hope your flaming is picked up by a mod and the appropriate action is taken.

[Marq]

i wanted to point that wind+fire but again jammin is right kakazu didnt want to kill naruto:::
no one is undermining narutos intelligence but if we take that fight it was disiponting, kakuzu could do much better, he could move, not to stand there like virgin marry, and fall for basic trick in a book
narutos intelligence isnt questionable but he is raping his 2 jutsus, every prepared ninja could beat him(if you look better hidan was defeated for that same reason) and only thing he did is to send few clones before to scout and then again he start rushing with clones....
so it wasnt all time fight not he is the most brilliant ninja in the world that was all most of people said, in every aspect i think sasu for now showed more

You are doing the exact same thing and just contradicting yourself. Every ninja prepared can beat Naruto.. By that statement, you mean he's dumb and can't fight for himslef now can he?

IF you want to bring dumb Kazuku angles, I can bring up one for Sasuke, the fight Dedi.

Let's see, elemental weakness, (lighting beats earth) yet Dedi acted out of character and was reletnlessly attacking with no logic at, carelessly throwing earth claybombs as usual. Sure, during half the way fight, Dediara didnt' notice, but after taht he still went on reletnlessly attacking with clay.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to think of something else rather than trying to overcome something that can easily be counterable or stopped? Taught in ninja101 as well. So if people are going to call out for Kakzuku for falling for the simple yet effective trick in the book, might as well admit Dediara was dumb for being ignorant and relentessly repeating to use earth techniques.

I also love it how people assume that Kazuku can easily know which naruto clone was the real one. Really?.. I mean really... It was 50/50 chance. Your assumption as the reader is obviously oh yeah, he's going to get naruto easily. What he did wasn't wrong. Making himself spread to cover his surroundings was smart. We saw that all it takes is three clones to catch Kazuku, and all Naruto had to do was land the hit. As for him falling for the trick. I thought it was dumb myself, but it's annoying as hell to see Naruto get all the flack for everything.

He didn't beat Kazuku, if it wasn't for yamato and kakashi he would've died. Please, there has been a bunch of situations where Sasuke would've been easily screwed.

Not to mention, Kishimoto's assbackwards logic of Naruto not using the Kyubbi during the fight. Honestly tell me, if that restriction wasn't there, you would think naruto wouldn't be able to demolish the guy? It's as if you guys can fathom the logic that Naruto cant take on an Akatsuki member, even though Jirayia specifically trained him for that reason.

Also the Naruto isn't nothing without the Kyubbi is very redudant and tiring. OF course if I bring up the sharingan, everyone says but Sasuke was born with etc. Well, guess what kishi specifically always wrote Naruto to have the Kyubbi inside him, no ifs or buts about it. It's if though somehow a boy like Naruto can't have chakra or stamina, and he would be nothing but a weakass genin without the kyubbi. But someone like Sasuke to have a decent amount of chakra for a 15 year old is believable.

Naruto wouldn't be able to perform the KB, or the rasengan. Bullshit, we've seen a scenario where Naruto can use the KB without the kyubbi.

As long as people keep belittiing Naruto's accomplishments, theres always going to be those who do the same to Sasuke.

[khar2]

you get me wrong, i said every prepared couse its truth...
i dont know who said that it no matter how many jutsus you have, but it matters how good you with 2 of them, well wrong. if someone has 2 jutsu his big disadvantage is that well prepared ninja will know his jutsu and true that it will know how to defend himself
naruto since time skip didnt change his battle style one inch, he is using KB better but that is all

[Zeus-Tails]

So...I call a fictional character stupid, and your sophisticated, mature reaction was to instead of prove me wrong through manga scans and logical reasoning, call me names out of context? I'm ignorant, worthless, non-sensical and a fanboy? And you came to this conclusion from two paragraphs of my writing? Insulting me instead of proving me wrong...I gotta say I've never experienced this kinda childishness online.

Ever.

Good luck having anyone take you seriously now that they know your level of reasoning. And I sincerely hope your flaming is picked up by a mod and the appropriate action is taken.

I call you that because you are. I showed you the logical reasoning and I even broke down the actions carefully (Raizen and tora knows) and you still didn't get it. What am I supposed to do? Hit you in the head with a hammer until you realize what is in front of you? Nah, you're not worth it. I am not patient enough to show someone like you the same thing over and over again.

[ninjabot]

you get me wrong, i said every prepared couse its truth...
i dont know who said that it no matter how many jutsus you have, but it matters how good you with 2 of them, well wrong. if someone has 2 jutsu his big disadvantage is that well prepared ninja will know his jutsu and true that it will know how to defend himself
naruto since time skip didnt change his battle style one inch, he is using KB better but that is all

You're thinking of Jiraiya. It was during the Sannin fight where Orochimaru started badmouthing Naruto and he Jiraiya started explaining that it isn't the amount of jutsu that makes you strong, but heart and all that. The will of fire or whatever.

[khar2]

yes, thx, as i said having more tricks up the sleeve gives you advantage, a big advantage, couse smart man will fall for same trick only one time, most two and there is thing where naruto is in thin ice and to say more, his dear friends that know him, how many times would they fall for the same trick... none, just couse they know him :)

[mestizo311]

my question is and was???
as stated in manga sasu is stronger then naruto, and you all are talking about naruto vs. pain, how is this fight suppose to happen if naruto is barely a jounin level???
so that i think you are wrong, couse unless you are we have to have another time skip and freeze madras plans or somehow sasu and naruto have to be stronger then a just a jounin level, see my point:)

Okay, I see your point. Kishi really screwed up with having, in my opinion, such a big difference in the power gaps.

[khar2]

i personally don't care for any gap between them, but i think kishi could've think in advance, and i am not against any gap, but then to give someone new jutsu in 2 day like frs is stupid and rushed, i personally don't like way sasu got ms but i can deal with it couse ms is awaken so it wouldn't be a big difference if he got his own, but i dont like rushing stuff and correcting mistakes so superficially like fixing gap with 2 day training

[mestizo311]

Although, I did like the training idea that Kakashi came up with for Naruto. The downside is that Kishi is basically saying that Naruto didn't learn crap with Jiraiya for 2.5 years.

In regards to the Kakuzu fight, let's just say that it was rushed. For someone like Kakuzu, who supposedly had all this battle experience, to die like that was ridiculous. The guy was up against five Konoha ninja's all by himself. It doesn't take a genius to know that the odds are not in your favor. He should've got the hell out of there or try to split up the opposition. Basically, Kakuzu was Kishi's guinea pig for Naruto's new toy.

[khar2]

yeah and then he all catch up in 2 days. it just doesn't sound good no matter how you look, its too easy to be something special

and again if someone makes 10 copy of himself and starts learning something he doesnt advance 10 times faster if he doesn't share knowledge all the time with copies
its like 10 companies are researching and making a new type of tank for one country, that country wont get tank 10 faster, i will get it maybe 0,5 times faster, and even if they share knowledge it will still pass some time and it wont go 10 times faster, but 2
see my point even training was loophole. something kishi tough fast to reduce gap, and still he created jutsu naruto shouldnt use, so it shows his intention to not to put naruto much this year and i cant get felling that was forced on him(making frs and closing gap)

[Black/Light]

and again if someone makes 10 copy of himself and starts learning something he doesnt advance 10 times faster if he doesn't share knowledge all the time with copies
Naruto does share info with all his clones. One learns something it's auto popped into all their heads once it's gone.


its like 10 companies are researching and making a new type of tank for one country, that country wont get tank 10 faster, i will get it maybe 0,5 times faster, and even if they share knowledge it will still pass some time and it wont go 10 times faster, but 2

Actually, a better example would be if 9 companies, all with the same amount of resources, all got over taken by one company with the same said resources. That company would than be able to do w/e they were trying to do 10 times faster cause they have 10 times the resources they had before.

What Naruto is doing is a mix of this. 200 clones all do their own thing, go pop, than he learns who did what best and how they did it (or, if it has a clear result like learning how to shapen wind chakra just pop the one that learnt it and all the others learn it so he doesn't waste clones). Than he makes 200 more that try 200 different versions of what the one clone did that worked best.

It's tria and error 200 times fasters than it would have been had he not done it that way.

[khar2]

yeh it would be the case if he shared knowlage and thoughts with his clones, but he only do that when he pop's so its not any more 10 times with ten clones
and wind manipulation is more like a skill so if i learn to juggle and my ten clones and if after ten days our knowledge merge, it wont be if i was training for 100 days, couse most of our knowledge will be same, our skill level will be the same, so i will have some improvments but not in such way... but it doesnt matter, that training was undermining of kakashies, j-mans and minatos intelligence, they couldnt, wanted complete that technique in a life time and someone complete in in a 2 day---- it just doesn't fell right(it would be better if he had flashback of his training with j and completing frs, instead of that training)

[DarkManSharingan32]

You are doing the exact same thing and just contradicting yourself. Every ninja prepared can beat Naruto.. By that statement, you mean he's dumb and can't fight for himslef now can he?

IF you want to bring dumb Kazuku angles, I can bring up one for Sasuke, the fight Dedi.

Let's see, elemental weakness, (lighting beats earth) yet Dedi acted out of character and was reletnlessly attacking with no logic at, carelessly throwing earth claybombs as usual. Sure, during half the way fight, Dediara didnt' notice, but after taht he still went on reletnlessly attacking with clay.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to think of something else rather than trying to overcome something that can easily be counterable or stopped? Taught in ninja101 as well. So if people are going to call out for Kakzuku for falling for the simple yet effective trick in the book, might as well admit Dediara was dumb for being ignorant and relentessly repeating to use earth techniques.

I also love it how people assume that Kazuku can easily know which naruto clone was the real one. Really?.. I mean really... It was 50/50 chance. Your assumption as the reader is obviously oh yeah, he's going to get naruto easily. What he did wasn't wrong. Making himself spread to cover his surroundings was smart. We saw that all it takes is three clones to catch Kazuku, and all Naruto had to do was land the hit. As for him falling for the trick. I thought it was dumb myself, but it's annoying as hell to see Naruto get all the flack for everything.

He didn't beat Kazuku, if it wasn't for yamato and kakashi he would've died. Please, there has been a bunch of situations where Sasuke would've been easily screwed.

Not to mention, Kishimoto's assbackwards logic of Naruto not using the Kyubbi during the fight. Honestly tell me, if that restriction wasn't there, you would think naruto wouldn't be able to demolish the guy? It's as if you guys can fathom the logic that Naruto cant take on an Akatsuki member, even though Jirayia specifically trained him for that reason.

Also the Naruto isn't nothing without the Kyubbi is very redudant and tiring. OF course if I bring up the sharingan, everyone says but Sasuke was born with etc. Well, guess what kishi specifically always wrote Naruto to have the Kyubbi inside him, no ifs or buts about it. It's if though somehow a boy like Naruto can't have chakra or stamina, and he would be nothing but a weakass genin without the kyubbi. But someone like Sasuke to have a decent amount of chakra for a 15 year old is believable.

Naruto wouldn't be able to perform the KB, or the rasengan. Bullshit, we've seen a scenario where Naruto can use the KB without the kyubbi.

As long as people keep belittiing Naruto's accomplishments, theres always going to be those who do the same to Sasuke.

All Deidara knows are earth techniques.


What did you want him to try?
Taijutsu?
---

And until Naruto starts taking on ninja on his own from start to finish... i'm still going to a bit critical of him. I need to see it. Pure speculation isn't enough.

[Raizen]

yeh it would be the case if he shared knowlage and thoughts with his clones, but he only do that when he pop's so its not any more 10 times with ten clones
and wind manipulation is more like a skill so if i learn to juggle and my ten clones and if after ten days our knowledge merge, it wont be if i was training for 100 days, couse most of our knowledge will be same, our skill level will be the same, so i will have some improvments but not in such way... but it doesnt matter, that training was undermining of kakashies, j-mans and minatos intelligence, they couldnt, wanted complete that technique in a life time and someone complete in in a 2 day---- it just doesn't fell right(it would be better if he had flashback of his training with j and completing frs, instead of that training)
The clones training technique could be performed ONLY by naruto b/c of the kyubi. Also not everyone can use nature manipulation and spatial recomp perfectly. So far in the manga only naruto has been able to that. The clones training increases his experience substantially. He learns faster in a short amount of time. A technique that can take 20 years only took 2 days b/c of the mass clones and the knowledge they share. I just don;t understand how u can't comprehend it. All u do is undermine his techniques.

My suggestion to u is to read the manga over and SLOWLY!!!
obviously u are missing the most important and obvious facts that has been SPECIFICALLY stated

[khar2]

you completely missed the point of my post....
read it slow, well knowledge is shared when clon pufs,so if 100 is training and they all puff naruto gets their knowledge, but most of the shit they learned is same stuff couse every of them started with on level of knowledge and expand it, so most of the shit they learned, info the gathered is the same so it cant be like he was training by himself 100 times more, with that theory its more like he trained 1,5 times more not 100

[Jammin]

The manga has been extremely clear on the formula for the training bonus Naruto's clones give him. It works like this....

1 Naruto clone+Naruto = 2x Naruto Experience(hence 1/2 the training time)
2 Naruto clones+Naruto = 3x Naruto Experience(hence 1/3 the training time)
1000 Naruto clones+Naruto = 1001x Naruto Experience(hence 1/1000 the training time)

All of this is stated clear as day right *here* (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/315/08/). Whether or not you agree with it, it's a Naruto fact.

Since it's principles are rooted in Kishimoto's imagination, real world rules need not apply, i don't have any problems with the more than slightly shifty logic behind the whole exponential experience thing. I just file it in the "magical ninja stuff" category along with Kirin and a boatload of other stuff.

[khar2]

i am debating about possible loophole in manga, i don't care much for naruto, i stopped at the end of gara arc and since then his boring attitude is pretty annoying for me, it reminds me to much of goku :)
but with last sentence it looks like you see it weird too, but never mind i just wanted to see if someone thought of same thing

[gfire2]

i am debating about possible loophole in manga, i don't care much for naruto, i stopped at the end of gara arc and since then his boring attitude is pretty annoying for me, it reminds me to much of goku :)
but with last sentence it looks like you see it weird too, but never mind i just wanted to see if someone thought of same thing

well if u stopped reading there then u obviousli missed an importanat statement wen kakaishi tlked abt the KB training. and jammin is rite abt the statement there

[Raizen]

well if u stopped reading there then u obviousli missed an importanat statement wen kakaishi tlked abt the KB training. and jammin is rite abt the statement there
Seriously, khar2 talk the biggest bunch of BS but in reality he knows so little about the manga!!

[mestizo311]

Seriously, khar2 talk the biggest bunch of BS but in reality he knows so little about the manga!!

I think the opinions that khar2 has about the manga is justified. I'm not sure if he has flamed on anyone here but I believe everyone should be entitled to their own opinion. Personally, I like the Naruto manga but I've been disappointed at times with it. I think the disappointment comes from my own expectations of it and my own impatience. I can understand why khar2 hasn't read the manga continually after the gaara rescue arc. Who wants to see Naruto train? He was supposed to have done that with J-man. Although I like the KB training idea Kakashi came up with, I was left wondering why Jiraiya didn't think of it. He could have used the KB training as a flashback instead of screwing up the flow of the story.

[Jammin]

Hahahahaha:D, you know what strikes me as funny? The sheer level of off topic this thread has gone. I mean Naruto isn't even involved in the fight this thread was supposed to be about.:amuse

I just checked and, unless i missed something, it's been 3 pages of posts since someone mentioned anything relating to Sasuke fighting Orochimaru and Jiraiya:p.

[khar2]

well oro and j-man are dead and sasu is on his godly throne again so there isnt much to tell:)
and i didnt say i stopped reading manga after gara arc i said i stoped liking naruto like a character, and about that training its a math, if you double the input doest mean your output will be doubled --- and i simply disliked that part of story