Discussion Naruto is getting worse/boring/unattractive Thread [Archive]

Galth

May 05, 2006, 02:46 PM

So to answer your question directly, the chapters haven't really satisfied me, because of the damn obsession with pointless character development of a doomed character and sasuke teasing.

Actually, though i was certain Sai would die for months, these last weeks got me doubting my own theory. My guess would be ( *tries to keep it short* ) that sasuke will not be "rescued" during this arc, that after the failed attempt with Orochimaru/Sasuke fleeing the scene ( there's got to be some Kabuto and Kakashi things coming soon imo...? ) they return to Konoha, Sai will be the one to finish Danzou off and stay with Team 7 perhaps... something like that... I should post my more detailed "prophecy" later :p

What i want to say is this: i don't think Sai is a one-use-only character, like Yamato is imo. We've seen Yamato's tricks and his personality is kinda plain, so he'll prolly be gone after this arc, but Sai might stay around... Even if they "save" sasuke, the probability of him joining again is quite small i say... if it were real life i mean, in manga people do things that don't fit with their character often ( check "sai" in your dictionary ;) )[br]Posted at: May 05, 2006, 08:45:33 PM_________________________________________________read: this arc mostly gives Kishimoto more options and mysteries to delve into later on, the previous arc had a beginning and an end

C4animax

May 05, 2006, 02:55 PM

I think i'm not too desapointed, the reason it is slow is because we got two "main important peopl" one is sai and the other one is sasuke, sasuke must stay in the dark that's why we only see few part of his body...and sai is the key character to make the plot move...admetting sai wasn't in that team with his mission they would be stuck back then on the bridge.

It's true that we don't see any great action/jutsu but i'm sure this is because there is a lot comming in the next few chapters...but anyway it's like the "sentimentale" thing in the manga, sometimes is good but most of the time it's just plain boring...

I have to say seeing all the anime all at once, the plot was moving very fast (maybe too fast sadly) so i'm ok being surprised by thoses betrayal...

Note : sasuke teasing sure is borring and that is what slows down everything!!!

Agree with khal for the one use character, but yamato has a power needed and i believe he'll probably come back sooner or later to help out.

walkie

May 05, 2006, 04:35 PM

as general i do not have any problems..of course sometimes everything should slow down and only stroy should come to light..but i found something interesting..sai turned sides very quickly, which i didnt expect that speed. and sasuke is just staying in shadows for too long..

for last chapters it seems to me kishiomoto getting milk as much as he can from "seeing sasuke hope"...sai's behaviour, orochimaru and kabuto stuff happening too fast..why? and why without any action? if this is about sai then give him a couple of chapters like neji had, totally background about him and info about hyuuga, or like gaara...if this arc is not about sai then let things go on...

Galth

May 05, 2006, 05:07 PM

We have enough info about Sai, we know he truly intends to save Sasuke, we know Naruto now thinks he wants to kill him,
which could/will result in Naruto accidently spoiling Sai's capturing attempt perhaps?

We know him brother died, and if it is Mizuki, then we'll see a flashy fight when he finds out Naruto was the one that killed him ( if he is dead indeed, not like in the anime... ), we'll see Sai attack Naruto perhaps?

Also, the flashback chapters will be saved for when we hear his brother's name, IF he is becoming a "main" character for a while at least.

C4animax

May 06, 2006, 04:26 PM

We know him brother died, and if it is Mizuki, then we'll see a flashy fight when he finds out Naruto was the one that killed him ( if he is dead indeed, not like in the anime... ), we'll see Sai attack Naruto perhaps?

Please, are you serious about mizuki?...they don't have the same haircut and he's not root, they are like ambu they don't travel unmasked and freely....mizuki isn't dead naruto just injuried him, he was in prison....(after that it's accorded to the filler only).

I think things will really move faster in 2 chapters.

Boss

November 13, 2006, 04:02 PM

Ok. Is it just me, or has Naruto been reallllly getting lame lately. I mean not only did the fight with Asuma's squad dissapoint me, but Naruto has to add another Bunshin to do his next Rasengan. I mean, I though that it looked lame enough with one when Jiraiya could do it so easily. Maybe the only thing good in a while to happen is Shikimaru picks up smoking.

Naruto's training also seems like it'll be forever. And seeing him trans form into the Kyuubi during training and what not doesn't even excite me anymore. Akatsuki is still doing the same ol' same ol', I mean basically I still read this manga because it's just a part of my weekly routine. Anyone else feel that it's been slipping lately?

ShgnLW

November 13, 2006, 04:09 PM

Yeah, I have the same you have, but the manga is just so addicting. The jutsu creating thing really lasts forever, although Naruto adding an extra bunshin is a realistic and logical way to make that jutsu. So, in my eyes, this is a good thing. The thing what really dissapointed me is the fact that Naruto (as a character) barely improved, and that changing into kyuubi is very commonly used now. For the rest, the Asuma fight (great drama build up), Shikamaru who picked up smoking and the training thingy are major plus points, in my oppinion. I like drama, and I was really shocked when I found out that Asuma died.

Boss

November 13, 2006, 04:16 PM

Daniee

November 13, 2006, 04:27 PM

I haven't liked it as much since Narutos' fight with Orochimaru, but I'm still enjoying it and look forward to it every week. Plus, I think it's due to most stuff since then has been either setup or pretty filler-ish. The same happens every now and then in Bleach and even One Piece. After Naruto learns his new jutsu, I think things will pick up again.

Boss

November 13, 2006, 05:46 PM

When Naruto was fighting Orochimaru, and he didn't have the four tails out, the fight was going great, but when he got the fourth tail? That shit looked SO stupid (imo), I didn't read the manga for like 3 weeks. And yes, when Naruto learns his new jutsu it will be good to see. But, since it's Musashi Kishimoto, we already know what's going to happen. Naruto fights a very strong opponent he shouldn't be able to beat, he gets beat up at first, says something charming and charismatic, and hits the guy with that bigass rasengan. After the first time you see it, it'll be lame

Edit: oh and another thing I hated about the Kyuubi Oro fight, is that Kishimoto gave Naruto a blast that looks just like freaking Cero...

poopoomaru

November 13, 2006, 07:11 PM

Yeah, Asuma's death was pretty messed up. But what really messed up the fight is that ... forgot the guy's name can't die. I was like... "Omg Kishimoto just ripped off Basilisk". And even though it's a bit off topic, I just haven't really respected Kishimoto's work after reading Hunter X Hunter. The character Sasuke is so much like Kurapica it sickens me.

Also, it does really suck that Naruto didn't improve as much as we thought he would, and now he's going to have another BIG technique that he has to land dramatically to win the fight. He needs to practice some damn Genjutsu for once, if anyone puts him under a sleep spell they have already defeated him. Needs some tai work too.

When I look at Vagabond, Bleach, eyeshield 21 and Hajime no Ippo, I think that Naruto is losing that "juice" it had.

Hmmm for me I was also extremely dissappointed when I saw that everyone seemed to be better then naruto. I mean I know the original premise of his character is like the underdog , but they keep slapping this whole " he has so much potential thing" at us and yet he doesnt show it, I mean in the beginning it was interesting , you know with comedy mixed in with his failures but I seriously had hoped that his going off and training with Jiraiya was supposed to be the end of that. I mean with all that "potential" and other hype the idea of of his going off and being personally taught by oneof the the strongest nin out there, the teacher of the character that is made out of hype, Yondaime. He he came back I expected him to show up all those people who made fun of him , everytime Sai dissed him I was seriously hoping for NAruto to suddenly be behind him with a kunai to his throat saying " who did you say was dickless? " , instead he gets shown up by Sai , Kabuto plays off his rasengan attempt like he is a academy student, and Sasuke completely trumps him when he finally comfronts him. They were pretty even at the valley of the end and then Sasuke prgresses to a point NAruto cant even perceive. Stop making naruto the underdog that is what I want to see, that is my main complaint. The manga is supposed to be about him , not sasuke , not itachi or Kakashi , or Sai , Naruto Freaking Uzumaki :darn

The Boff

November 13, 2006, 08:43 PM

Naruto Freaking Uzumaki :darn

actually its Uzumaki Naruto. other than that i agree 100% with what you said. and think about it, how bad of a teacher is jiraya if he didnt even teach naruto his element? what the hell did they do those 2,5 years? spy on babes and go 4 tail? wow, progress................

poopoomaru

November 13, 2006, 08:49 PM

lol I am an American and hence choose to place LAst names after first names , making it Naruto Uzumaki ( I feel there is no harm in calling a fictional being whatever I want , like I will make a point to pronounce naruto , Nar-uto , instead of na-ru-to. Its just easier for me ).

I am hoping that this training method will be the redeming factor in this mistake that I think was made. I just hope Kishi doesnt put it up on a shelf and never acknowledges it after this wind rasengan training ( like kuchiyose for example ).

Boss

November 13, 2006, 08:53 PM

actually its Uzumaki Naruto. other than that i agree 100% with what you said. and think about it, how bad of a teacher is jiraya if he didnt even teach naruto his element? what the hell did they do those 2,5 years? spy on babes and go 4 tail? wow, progress................
lmao! so true about the progress, I also completely agree with you poopoo. Even Ichigo is becoming MUCH stronger compared to how he was, when HE might his rival after his power boost, he showed him how much of a boss he really was. And, I really wonder wtf kind of training they did those two years. Jiraiya says Naruto has one technique he can't use period... so in 2 and a half years Naruto learned one deadly jutsu, and has perfected Oodama Rasengan.... YAY!

Daniee

November 13, 2006, 09:04 PM

Well, on the training, Jiraiya always believed that the Kyuubi is Naruto's greatest power and after the timeskip, we see he can go to 4-tails. Chances are Jiraiya focused a lot on bringing out more of Kyuubi's power without knowing the danger, especially since he'd be tangling with Akatsuki. And who knows how long it took him to teach Naruto the unknown jutsu. At least that's my theory... I wish Jiraiya would show up and reveal more.

so in 2 and a half years Naruto learned one deadly jutsu, and has perfected Oodama Rasengan.... YAY!
And improved his Kage Bunshin usage, learned to cancel genjutsu, and how to summon weapons from scrolls. Probably gained a lot more stamina/chakra as well.

Zero1986

November 13, 2006, 09:16 PM

I don't have a problem with the way the story is progressing at all. We were already told that Jiraiya was only going to focus on Kyuubi's power ever since he taught Naruto the summoning technique. It's always been Kakashi that dealt with making Naruto stronger as a ninja. And just because Naruto didn't make the jump from Genin to Jounin in 2.5 years doesn't mean he didn't progress. He took the skills he had and refined them. Remember in the Wave Country arc when Kakashi was better at using Kage Bunshins than Naruto? Look at Naruto now, even Kakashi states that he can't compete with Naruto's chakra strength or his Bunshin control.

Naruto has improved a lot imo, but you're really not looking for ways he's improved skills he already had as much as you are looking for new flashy jutsu's that you want him to have. I bet you wanted Naruto to come back with 100 new Jutsus that all took the form of Elemental Dragons, Invisibility and the power to fly. Naruto isn't that kind of a character. If you're looking for diversity in techniques, look at Orochimaru or Sasuske. Naruto is all about doing things his own way and creating his own way of the Ninja. You're nuts if you think that after 2.5 years of training Naruto is going to totally abandon his signature jutsu just because 3 of the strongest characters in the manga can do the same Jutsu w/o a Kage Bunshin (Jiraiya, Yondaime, and Kakashi.) No shit they can do it w/o a Kage Bunshin, they've been Ninja's for 20+ years. Narutos' only been at it for <5 years. Cut him some slack.

poopoomaru

November 13, 2006, 09:26 PM

Zero1986

November 13, 2006, 09:31 PM

poopoomaru

November 13, 2006, 09:46 PM

But the entire story of Naruto is based on Naruto being the underdog. For him to become the Sasuske-esque genius would be ridiculous. The theme of Naruto is that if someone works hard enough they can do anything. This isn't DBZ, there are no time-chambers for people to get powered up in 8 chapters.

No , but the time-skip was the perfect time for him to get up to the level where he would at least contend with Everyone. I never expected him to be a genius sasuke where he then trumps everyone he fights I just wanted it to change from the whole , Naruto is weaker then everyone , he fights a guy who is stronger then him , and then through his belief in himself and his pure heart he suddenyl pulls out a win , and then goes back to being weak. I wanted him after the time skip to actually change , for some actual character development to happen , to be able to show those around him that he really isnt weak. Instead he has been shoved into the underdog category again like before.

sharinganLS

November 13, 2006, 11:25 PM

I dont know, i cant really argue abt this and i dont have a point to add but i will say this yes naruto is an nderdog even in part 2; Im guessing Kishimoto is portraying his main charcter in this manner to show us that he isnt perfect and he is still growing into the man he will become (the hokage). I do feel he is much cool than in part 1 he is not affraid to take on an akatsuki member (unlike in part 1). Again im not adding to any point im just saying Naruto is still growing up he still has alot to learn.

LightReaper

November 14, 2006, 08:26 AM

It has been going downhill alot recently, there are just too many issues that Kishi seems to be having, and combined with the fact that One Piece is on the continual rise, Naruto has fallen from favour:

a)Shikamaru is not the main character, why the hell can't Kishi realise that if he's going to give secondary characters air time, he's got to share the airtime. Where is team Gai, where is team Kurenai. Where the hell is Sakura and Sai for that matter.
b)Nice to know that Shikamaru can somehow master how to use the wind element in like an afternoon, much quicker than Naruto using several hundred kage bunshins.
c)Akatsuki's overall plan has fallen flat in terms of intrigue, "WE WANT MONEY BWAHAHAHAHAHA"
d)Too little content in alot of the recent chapters. It feels like he's stretching out things so he has time to plan ahead, when what he really should be doing is taking a break to come up with some good material. The manga is suffering and has been since the Naruto/Orochimaru fight.
e)Like I said before, One Piece is blowing this manga out of the water as it is in terms of quality.

sharinganLS

November 14, 2006, 08:33 AM

a)Shikamaru is not the main character, why the hell can't Kishi realise that if he's going to give secondary characters air time, he's got to share the airtime. Where is team Gai, where is team Kurenai. Where the hell is Sakura and Sai for that matter.
b)Nice to know that Shikamaru can somehow master how to use the wind element in like an afternoon, much quicker than Naruto using several hundred kage bunshins.

I dont agree that naruto should have the main attention throughout the series. Other than Naruto Kishimoto has given sasuke alot of detail and background (even Lee to some extent) so i think its good shikamaru is getting some detail.
As so shikamaru learning wind chakra within one aftyernoon. Nobody knows if that really is wind chakra. It could be his shadow or some other element.

sahugani

November 14, 2006, 08:36 AM

i agree with you

a) i have been wanting desperately some air time for team kurenai. team gai had the rescue gaara arc, team asuma has...well...the asuma issue, but team kurenai was shoved aside. what i would like more than anything (right up with Franky joining the strawhats in OP) even though it'll never happen is a team 8 rescue nibi mission where they fight zetsu. it would make me so happy
b) uhh i believe shikamaru was channeling shadow chakra into asuma's blades (shadow whips "hope") as can be determined by a number of factors
c) ya i agree completely
d) i guess
e) amen to that. grandpa, father, coby and helmeppo, shanks, whitebeard, ace, blackbeard. it made me so happy

LightReaper

November 14, 2006, 09:36 AM

I dont agree that naruto should have the main attention throughout the series. Other than Naruto Kishimoto has given sasuke alot of detail and background (even Lee to some extent) so i think its good shikamaru is getting some detail.
As so shikamaru learning wind chakra within one aftyernoon. Nobody knows if that really is wind chakra. It could be his shadow or some other element.
I never said that Naruto should have all the attention, merely that if he's going to showcase the secondary characters, give them equal air time. Sasuke is a main character so lot's of airtime is to be expected. Shikamaru however isn't.

hotpapakellogs

November 14, 2006, 09:46 AM

naruto is just becoming boring and boring...... adding another bunshin to create his new jutsu makes it more boring...

pirates are way better than ninja!!

sharinganLS

November 14, 2006, 02:22 PM

I never said that Naruto should have all the attention, merely that if he's going to showcase the secondary characters, give them equal air time. Sasuke is a main character so lot's of airtime is to be expected. Shikamaru however isn't.

Its just like Bleach and any other series (remember ishida, chad, Inoue battles). U cant give the main character the spot light the entire time and i agree wat ur saying abt sharing the spot light. If it was possible to do so Kishimoto would have shown it but he didnt , besides all mangakas plan the way they would portray the storyline according to wat would keep their readers into the story. Switching very frequently between naruto and shikamaru would just screw around with the readers attention (it sometimes impossible to share the spot light thats all). Kishimoto is currently giving shikamaru the attention he will then continue with narutos traning later. It better this way then showing pieces of both the charcters at the same time.  [br]Posted on: November 14, 2006, 03:20:22 PM_________________________________________________

naruto is just becoming boring and boring...... adding another bunshin to create his new jutsu makes it more boring...

pirates are way better than ninja!!

Yeah u do make a very gud point; it is boring, but could u suggest another way by which naruto could complete this new jutsu?
(this isnt the place to state pirates are better than ninjas LoL)

Raine_Joybringer

November 14, 2006, 04:41 PM

Boss

November 14, 2006, 08:16 PM

I haven't been seeing anything really all that wrong with the series lately. The storytelling has been very good, and very different as far as comparisons to other manga go. I love how we get to see more of the supporting cast than the main characters- as much as I love Naruto and Sakura, it's good to have a breather and see 'meanwhile, over there' kind of stuff.

I don't see what the big fuss is about Naruto's training is. Can't people just be happy with the hundreds of bunshin training? I like it how he's gone back to an old way- it shows that you don't always have to be revolutionary to get results. It also shows just how "behind" Naruto is that he didn't realise it sooner... poor kid... he really does have a long way to go.

I'm actually pretty happy with how the series is progressing so far. It's not always big explosions and fight scenes- it's gritty, emotional, and has characters with real depth to them. Kishimoto has been doing great in my opinion, and I think it's only going to get better.

My problem with this is that just in two weeks Naruto was able to learn the rasengan technique which took like 2 years for Yondaime to create correct? But then he goes off with Jiraiya for two whole freaking years and he's barely learned anything. You'd think that somebody so far above Kakashi's lvl would be able to teach Naruto a little something? Why didn't Jiraiya bother teaching Naruto about elements? Most likely because he wants to keep him on that Kyuubi I have more chakra in the world type shit, and a lot of people are getting tired of it.

Also, imo Kishimoto has been getting worse and WORSE. It's like, "Oh yeah, I'm going to have Shikimaru best my protagonist character by using teh wind chakra in two minutes. Man that kid sure is a genious." "Ohhhhh I know, lets kill off Sarutobi Asuma! That makes it sad! I can make another funeral scene, I got a lot of feed back on that shit! Plus people will be wondering who Konohamaru's daddy is!" "Hmmmm... so I guess I shouldn't improve Naruto behind the scenes like the time skip made it look like I was going to do! I'll just make it so your able to see what he's doing but not improving him but like a tiny bit, yeah, that'll be so cool!"

I mean WTF was the point of the whole time skip? A cheap ass two month break he got out of the process, I really don't even know WHAT to look forward to when I read Naruto now, so if someone thinks there is something I should be looking forward too, please enlighten me.

chaosenigma

November 14, 2006, 08:47 PM

My problem with this is that just in two weeks Naruto was able to learn the rasengan technique which took like 2 years for Yondaime to create correct? But then he goes off with Jiraiya for two whole freaking years and he's barely learned anything. You'd think that somebody so far above Kakashi's lvl would be able to teach Naruto a little something? Why didn't Jiraiya bother teaching Naruto about elements? Most likely because he wants to keep him on that Kyuubi I have more chakra in the world type shit, and a lot of people are getting tired of it.

Also, imo Kishimoto has been getting worse and WORSE. It's like, "Oh yeah, I'm going to have Shikimaru best my protagonist character by using teh wind chakra in two minutes. Man that kid sure is a genious." "Ohhhhh I know, lets kill off Sarutobi Asuma! That makes it sad! I can make another funeral scene, I got a lot of feed back on that shit! Plus people will be wondering who Konohamaru's daddy is!" "Hmmmm... so I guess I shouldn't improve Naruto behind the scenes like the time skip made it look like I was going to do! I'll just make it so your able to see what he's doing but not improving him but like a tiny bit, yeah, that'll be so cool!"

I mean WTF was the point of the whole time skip? A cheap ass two month break he got out of the process, I really don't even know WHAT to look forward to when I read Naruto now, so if someone thinks there is something I should be looking forward too, please enlighten me.

I agree with Raine_Joybringer in the sense that I feel the manga is progressing rather well. To address your points:

- First of all, Naruto has not learned to use the rasengan one handed, he just improvised a quicker way to complete the jutsu based on his strengths. It makes sense that he learned it much quicker. Besides, Naruto was not developing rasengan, merely following a blueprint to use it. Of course he'd learn it faster than Yondaime.

-Secondly, by this time it's obvious that Jiraiya thought the Kyuubi was Naruto's greatest strength, and this has turned out to be quite the opposite. Naruto in four-tailed form is extremely powerful (maybe Kage level) but this power comes at the cost of his life. Since most of the 2.5 years were spent on Kyuubi, then that means that it was time wasted, thus he wasn't able to develop as well as other characters in terms of self chakra, etc.

-We don't know if Shikamaru's new blades have wind chakra in them. It certainly doesn't look like it, more like a shadow or fire type chakra. It's bad to assume.

-Asuma's death was very fitting. As powerful a Jounin as he was, he was not central to the story, and his 4 man Nijyuu Shoutai were simply no match for Hidan and Kakuzu. This increases the Akatsuki's credibility as an extremely powerful group of ninja's, as well as allowing character development for shinobi such as Team 10, Kurenai, etc.

You may be unhappy with Naruto's portrayal of supposed weakness, but look at all of his opponents from the timeskip onward: they've all been at least Jounin level (Sai and Sasuke being the weakest, which says a lot), generally much higher. Do you expect him to be able to rape anyone who stands in his way? Give it a little more time, and if you're truly unhappy, then stop reading.

Daniee

November 14, 2006, 09:04 PM

"Oh yeah, I'm going to have Shikimaru best my protagonist character by using teh wind chakra in two minutes. Man that kid sure is a genious."
1) The same page showed Shikamaru studying, obviously to use wind chakra. We don't know how much he studied and practiced there.
2) Naruto isn't very skilled and knew nothing about the elements when he began.
3) Last I checked, Shikamaru is a genius.

"Ohhhhh I know, lets kill off Sarutobi Asuma! That makes it sad! I can make another funeral scene, I got a lot of feed back on that shit! Plus people will be wondering who Konohamaru's daddy is!"
Just...what are you complaining about here? That Kishimoto is adding emotion to the story (making Akatsuki seem like a threat in the process) and answering questions? Asuma's funeral was only two pages anyhow.

"Hmmmm... so I guess I shouldn't improve Naruto behind the scenes like the time skip made it look like I was going to do! I'll just make it so your able to see what he's doing but not improving him but like a tiny bit, yeah, that'll be so cool!"
Just what were you expecting him to be like after the timeskip? And he HAS improved, he's just looked weak in comparison to Akatsuki and Sasuke (where he was weakened from the Kyuubi's damage). Which he's felt bad about twice in Part 2, and has driven him to take up this training and learn the wind chakra faster than expected.

c)Akatsuki's overall plan has fallen flat in terms of intrigue, "WE WANT MONEY BWAHAHAHAHAHA"

Uhh...they want money AND the bijuu in order to control the world
Did you miss most of that chapter.

Raine_Joybringer

November 14, 2006, 09:58 PM

My problem with this is that just in two weeks Naruto was able to learn the rasengan technique which took like 2 years for Yondaime to create correct? But then he goes off with Jiraiya for two whole freaking years and he's barely learned anything. You'd think that somebody so far above Kakashi's lvl would be able to teach Naruto a little something? Why didn't Jiraiya bother teaching Naruto about elements? Most likely because he wants to keep him on that Kyuubi I have more chakra in the world type shit, and a lot of people are getting tired of it.

Remember that learning a technique would be easier than creating it. Yondaime must have spent ages just researching the way chakra could be molded into the most effective form, and also infusing it with an element (though he never got that far). Naruto used unconventional means to achieve the product, even if it did take him even longer to actually perfect it. His stamina would mean that it's possible he would have been able to train longer in one day than Yondaime was able to.

What Jiraiya taught Naruto must have been a lot like a going over of all the basics, since Naruto isn't the brightest crayon in the box, and as seen, Sakura and others were constantly having to remind him of things. Jiraiya also seems to have a rather short attention span as well... Odds are Jiraiya spent most of the time looking into the Kyuubi's strength inside Naruto, testing it, and developing ways to deal with it (also fact finding about the Akatsuki and perving on women). He probably just didn't get the time to get into the advanced stuff with Naruto.

Also, imo Kishimoto has been getting worse and WORSE. It's like, "Oh yeah, I'm going to have Shikimaru best my protagonist character by using teh wind chakra in two minutes. Man that kid sure is a genious." "Ohhhhh I know, lets kill off Sarutobi Asuma! That makes it sad! I can make another funeral scene, I got a lot of feed back on that shit! Plus people will be wondering who Konohamaru's daddy is!" "Hmmmm... so I guess I shouldn't improve Naruto behind the scenes like the time skip made it look like I was going to do! I'll just make it so your able to see what he's doing but not improving him but like a tiny bit, yeah, that'll be so cool!"

Shikamaru's chakra didn't seem to be the same colour. It looked pretty different. Also, it was just as choppy and distrorted looking as Naruto's was when he first used it. First used it are the keywords there- Naruto was able to get his chakra to get "sucked" into the blades, and Shikamaru was able to too. It's possible anyone would be able to do that. It's also possible that if Shikamaru's chakra type isn't effective in the blades, he might not be able to use them. He was just testing to see if it was possible, hence his research in the library.

I wouldn't poke such fun at Asuma's death like that. His death is vital to the storyline, and it shows just how serious the Akatsuki are in terms of their goal, and their power. Also, these are ninja we're talking about. Doubtless people die all the time. This time around, it unforunately happened to be Asuma who got in the line of fire. And it's impacted a lot of people. Of course Konohamaru would be shown- the kid lost a relative. It shouldn't matter if he was father or uncle, he still lost someone precious to him.

I'd have rather seen what was happening with Asuma and the others than seeing chapter after chapter of Naruto training... at least Naruto hasn't learnt the new technique in two chapters flat though, which is what many people were concerned about before.

I mean WTF was the point of the whole time skip? A cheap ass two month break he got out of the process, I really don't even know WHAT to look forward to when I read Naruto now, so if someone thinks there is something I should be looking forward too, please enlighten me.

If you don't like the series, stop reading it then.

kiddo7

November 14, 2006, 10:04 PM

mugen

November 14, 2006, 10:04 PM

no bullshit i mean especially with that heavily forshadowed Asuma death and naruto making rasengan with ten bunshins
okay maybe not 10 but u get the point :oh

Donils

November 15, 2006, 12:08 AM

I find the manga better then it has been in a long time. The fact that people are saying Shikamaru has wind chakra and screwing up the Akatsuki goals makes me wonder if the manga is going over their heads? Are they even paying attention?

I never said that Naruto should have all the attention, merely that if he's going to showcase the secondary characters, give them equal air time. Sasuke is a main character so lot's of airtime is to be expected. Shikamaru however isn't.

Who exactly are you to tell a mangaka who and who not are his main characters? Who is writing the story here? The only true main character is Naruto, but if Kishimoto wants to give another character panel time then that's his business and that character becomes important. He is obvisouly trying to do something big with Shikamaru. That doesn't mean his is obligated now to do the same with other characters. Only Naruto, Kakashi, Sasuke, and Sakura have appeared more in the manga than Shikamaru. So if you don't like calling him a main character than call him a semi-main one. Comic book writers and mangaka sometimes favor certain characters for whatever reason. Wolverine was just a minor character on the X-Men until John Byrne and Chris Claremont started focusing on him and he became one of the most popular comic book characters in history.

Check the panel counts. Kishimoto has never given the secondary characters equal panel time. Neji was always more important than Tenten. Lee more important then Hinata. There is a clear hierarchy to the characters. Kishimoto has been doing this for years. Shikamaru didn't start getting important overnight.

LightReaper

November 15, 2006, 04:20 AM

Would you not agree however that Team Kurenai is long overdue for some airtime? Kurenai has been in alot of the chapters recently but none of her team has, not even at the funeral. I have no problem with Shikamaru getting alot of airtime, it's the fact that other characters are suffering because of it. What has Sai been up to, or Sakura for that matter? Even team Gai has been out of the picture for a while; it just seems like a vastly different style of story telling now then before the timeskip, and *IMO* the manga has suffered because of it.

I'm not trying to convince anyone ELSE that the manga has been in a slump, merely stating the reasons that I have for thinking that the quality has taken a turn for the worse. That *is* what the thread is about, right?

On the subject of Jiraiyas training with Naruto; i'd very easily believe that he was only training Naruto on how to use the kyuubi, but from the way Kyuubi has been portrayed, it seems like the results from the 'training' would of occured naturally anyway as Naruto loses his grip over Kyuubi. We have seen no literal difference between this Naruto and the past Naruto than the odama rasengan and more tails. The former seems more like mild experimentation that Naruto carried out himself, and the latter would of occured naturally as the seal begins to weaken. So *WHY* did Jiraiya waste away so much time, I would of thought he'd be smarter than that and train Naruto on how NOT to depend on Kyuubi, much like Kakashi is doing now.

sahugani

November 15, 2006, 10:38 AM

i like anyone who agrees with me about team kurenai's lack of presence. i wanna see Kiba/Akamaru tear it up. i wanna see Hinata prove her competance compared to Neji. I wanna see more creepy bug techniques from Shino

kiddo7

November 15, 2006, 11:00 AM

I'm with you all the way man! woot woot!

regretably though, I doubt we will see any of that in the next few chapters. :(

hotpapakellogs

November 15, 2006, 11:36 AM

What i dont want in naruto is,, that the akatsuki exposed their plan to early.. maybe it lessen my excitement to read the naruto manga recently... the opinions and predictions make it to the point that i know what will happen in the near future........................

mtofu

November 15, 2006, 12:19 PM

i think the series has been pretty stagnant since sasuke left the leaf village. the story lines have been a bit on the short side which makes it feel like either there is too much happening too soon - there's a very go/stop feeling. also, the combat sequences arent as flashy as they used to be.

i'm glad shika is getting some page time because he's an interesting character. i think i'd go crazy if i had to sit through naruto's training because he's the main character - it would be really boring. in fact, i'm happy to see anything about any character so that i won't have to sit through naruto's training.

i'm pretty sure that shika didn't use the blades to channel the wind technique. i agree that it wasn't defined like asuma's so it is possible to assume that it is just the beginning stages of whatever element he is. but, my first impression of that scene was he was channeling his shadow into the blades. also, just because we only saw one page of him playing chess and sitting in the library, doesn't mean that only one day has passed since asuma's funeral.

sharinganLS

November 15, 2006, 12:39 PM

mugen

November 15, 2006, 03:26 PM

I agree wih you, Jiraya's training turned out to be not a very poisitive result for naruto; i hope Kishimoto has a reason for portraying the training in this manner.

yeah I mean he's still the same dunce from part I

Boss

November 15, 2006, 04:12 PM

Now now see what happenes when you post without thinking?

I think we should all sitdown and have some of those delicious virtual bluberry muffins WinterLion hands out in the introduction thread, before a fight breaks out.

Let us just all get along, shall we?

Hehe, first of all, I'm not trying to be an ass, just trying to get my point along without getting double teamed and jumped on! Hope no one takes anything I say offensesively, unless you really ARE Musashi Kishimoto.

Ok guys, I'll give you the fact that it might not have been wind chakra around Shikimaru's blades, but I still think that the Bunshin thing really makes Naruto just look weak. I saw someone saying that basically that other teams need airtime. Np, that's fine. But what I can't agree with is that the fighting scenes in Naruto are still AS exciting. The best one I've ever seen (a team fight) was Zabuza vs Kakashi, Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke (I). It showed all the teamwork and heart, and the jutsus were new, and pretty cool. However, when someone has a lameass ability like emortality on their side, it just makes the fight lame. On top of that, I have seen techniques like these in countless manga.

1) The same page showed Shikamaru studying, obviously to use wind chakra. We don't know how much he studied and practiced there.
2) Naruto isn't very skilled and knew nothing about the elements when he began.
3) Last I checked, Shikamaru is a genius.Just...what are you complaining about here? That Kishimoto is adding emotion to the story (making Akatsuki seem like a threat in the process) and answering questions? Asuma's funeral was only two pages anyhow.Just what were you expecting him to be like after the timeskip? And he HAS improved, he's just looked weak in comparison to Akatsuki and Sasuke (where he was weakened from the Kyuubi's damage). Which he's felt bad about twice in Part 2, and has driven him to take up this training and learn the wind chakra faster than expected.Uhh...they want money AND the bijuu in order to control the world
Did you miss most of that chapter.

Seems to me Naruto's biggest worry is still Sasuke, not the Akatsuki. First priority is always Sasuke. Now, IF Shikimaru did learn the elemental thing that fast that makes Naruto look like a fucking retard, and like I was saying I just thought he'd be different in part 2. Adding emotion to the story? That is actually something that Naruto does need, but it just sucks to see Asuma just suddenly DIE when people like Gaara just get lucky and brought back to life. Gaara lives but Asuma dies? Lame, especially when Gaara is going to be useless until he gets his bijuu back. They could've at least let him go out like a G, in the line of duty. Kishimoto has always done shit like that too, everytime one of the ninja are suppose to die, somehow, they get realllllly lucky, and manage to live through that shit (examples are Chouji, Rock Lee, Kankurou, even Naruto, Neji, and Gaara) but sweet nins like Sarutobi and Asuma die, well the life of a ninja shouldn't be that cute. Another thing about Naruto is that since Kishimoto gave him an Orange jumpsuit in Part 1, that it made him sooooo different from other Ninja, that he just can't change his image. So, Naruto will remain looking like a dumbass in a bright-assed orange suit his whole manga career. Also saying that Naruto looks weak compared to the Akatsuki and Sasuke just proves my point that Naruto has not improved THAT much. I just thought someone who could master Rasengan in two weeks would've had a lot more talent then that. Even Tsunade said it was impossible to learn Rasengan in two weeks, making it a massive achievement imo.

The Akatsuki's plans didn't excite me very much, it was so simplistic. They want to make money, by using the Bijuu to start war? Ok... does that mean you plan on sealing them inside yourselves? Because if not, I really find it hard to believe that a Bijuu could be controlled by some lame ass genjutsu or something. The fourth would've been really feeling crunchy if he heard about that shit lol. And if they do seal them inside of themselves, then what the hell is the point when a human body can barely withstand their powers, and/or wind up losing control to their Bijuu? That'd just make it even more of a disaster. With the greatest evil S ranked minds in the "Naruto" world, I just thought the plan would be a little better, and just a bit more complicated (not that making something complicated makes it good, but when your making a plan to rule the world it better be way more complicated then 3 fucking steps. Come on now).

If you don't like the series, stop reading it then.

Also, adding on I never stated I disliked the series, I'm just saying I don't like the way it's progressing and I wanted to see if some people agreed with me.

Still waiting for someone to tell me something I should be engulfed in, or waiting for in the story right now.....

kyubisharingan

November 15, 2006, 05:44 PM

HEy, Naruto isnt going downhill. By going the way it is, its like putting together a puzzle. If it wasnt like that, then everyone would be confused.

caliboy

November 15, 2006, 10:00 PM

I didn't know where else to talk about this, but i wanted to get other peopel's opinion.
What Do You Guys Think of Part Two?

To me it seems that part two has a different way of storytelling and, though it was exciting to see the new character designs and how everyone has improved, the arcs of this part seem flat. It seems like they are lacking the heart of the first one. Back then we saw naruto's progression from the outcast to the accepted inspiration figure. Time and time again we saw how his determination and ingenuity brought him victory in the chuunin examination against neji, kiba, on the written test, against kabuto in the tsunade act. But where is that naruto in part 2? He rescued Gaara but the odds weren't stacked against him like before. The confrontation with sasuke was left unresolved, and now his training.

I really want to see naruto in fights again and winning the fight when all the odds are stacked against him. I know that we are seeing more of the darker side to his relationship with the kyuubi and the pain he feels from having failed sasuke; this stuff is new territory and not a rehash of the old, but i still want to see the inspirational stories. the sai saga seems to fall short for me as an inspirational arc.

am i completely off here, or has the series always been like this

ttxdragon

November 15, 2006, 11:03 PM

as i wrote a long answer to this post as it was it's own thread, i'm gonna post it here now xD

I didn't know where else to talk about this, but i wanted to get other peopel's opinion.
What Do You Guys Think of Part Two?

To me it seems that part two has a different way of storytelling and, though it was exciting to see the new character designs and how everyone has improved, the arcs of this part seem flat. It seems like they are lacking the heart of the first one. Back then we saw naruto's progression from the outcast to the accepted inspiration figure. Time and time again we saw how his determination and ingenuity brought him victory in the chuunin examination against neji, kiba, on the written test, against kabuto in the tsunade act. But where is that naruto in part 2? He rescued Gaara but the odds weren't stacked against him like before. The confrontation with sasuke was left unresolved, and now his training.

I really want to see naruto in fights again and winning the fight when all the odds are stacked against him. I know that we are seeing more of the darker side to his relationship with the kyuubi and the pain he feels from having failed sasuke; this stuff is new territory and not a rehash of the old, but i still want to see the inspirational stories. the sai saga seems to fall short for me as an inspirational arc.

am i completely off here, or has the series always been like this

maybe i'm viewing this totally diffrent as many people, but right now we are in an introduction arc of a new series.
Naruto Part 2 is Part 2 because it is diffrent from the first part and could actually be viewn as a completely new manga.

i totally respect this decision of kishimoto to go into this more subtle and slightly more mature telling of the story.
he involves now deeper, but not that much shown emotions. he involves serious love on a non-comedical style. he begins to show the downsides of things, which have been portrayed as only useful up to part2. the decision to insert the shougi-board as a reference to the story, thus making it a bit more predictable but still mysterious enough. maybe even adding onto the mysterious side. this all means he takes the growth of the readers into his story. seeing as nearly 5years of the manga (when serialized) took thee events of naruto being 12-13years old, it was time for a change not only in the character age, but also in the style.

what do we get new from naruto?
better use of the kagebunshin in battle,
oodama rasengan (improvement of his mastertechnic),
he can control the kyuubi up to 3 tails (showing his physical and mental strength),
and of course his typical caring for other lonely people mentality

sakura?
great medical ninjutsu,
great chakra control enabling her to get superhuman strength,
she is more determined,
she had a change of heart, a very clear change of heart.

jiraiya?
despite him acting as a good teacher, we get to see how damn wrong he calculated with the kyuubi-use.

kakashi?
more responsibility,
mangekyou sharingan (sp?),
improved fighting skills

heck, we get even 3 more characters on the konoha side,
sai, the emotionless now emotionsearching ninja from the roots
danzou, ein mann mit unbekannten plaenen
yamato/tenzou, with his mokuton no jutsu (sp?) and his great insight

this is what we as readers who know the part 1 get,
as a new reader starting at part2, we would get some past and background things told and the story makes sense even without reading part1.

i don't think we will get much of this 'inspirational' stuff in the second part at all. hell, i won't even guarantee that there will be a happy end anymore.

the story gets more intresting now as it involves deeper and not so easy to comprehend emotional ways.
this isn't near seinen and still shonen, but this change of pace for sure is good.

and no, you're not completely off, the series has changed dramatically for the better.

kiddo7

November 16, 2006, 12:41 AM

That was beautifull, Viewing part two as an entirely seperate manga is something I have not even considered. This sheds a whole new light on everything.

@BOSS
Are you really waiting for someone to point out some good parts of the manga?
I am truely sorry and you have all the right in the world to tear my head of for my following comments but I find no other way to put this.
It seams to me that you have already decided in your heart that there is nothing worth reading in Naruto anymore. You did not want to admit this however and so you strugled with it for a while by yourself. However to your dismay the pessimistic side of you won. Now you are unmovably convinced of your opinion and you are ready to defend it against anyone in the world. You even made this thread to streangthen your resolve by having anyone and everyone bring in their best arguments for the manga and trying and testing your skill at refuting everything we say. Of course admiting to this feels somewhat unnatural to you so you gave the thread a more "mild" name.
Would not it be easier for you if you just admited that you have lost interest in naruto? Now one will think less of you for it. If this is however not the case then why don't you just open your eyes and ears and try to focus more on the positive sides of the story, and on all the evidence that has been brought before you?
I am convinced that once a human being has madde up his/her mind, it is impossible to change it by persuasion or by introducing any sort of proof. you have to decide that you want to beleive what we are trying to proove to you before any progress will be made in that area.
Once again I mean no offence and I understand if this enrages you. But maybe if I say these things you might mull over them later on and after some introspection you might have a clearer picture of your intentions with this thread and of your liking of Kishimoto sensei's work.

Boss

November 16, 2006, 06:32 AM

...I suppose you are right. When you put it that way I think that is how I see it. (There is no reason to read part 2, because it flails in comparison to part 1 imo). Haha, why would I want to tear your head off? Maybe I'll just take a break or something... having lost some respect for Kishimoto has pretty much totalled the part 2 anyway. On the other hand, when you say I should focus on the good parts in the series, I just think... "Ok Orochi fight... Neji looks pretty sweet. Gaara was kickass, and I liked the fight between fake Itachi and Kisame vs Team 7.... and Gai's team. Forgot the number, I guess Shikamaru smoking, Yamamoto". Thanks, I appreciate you bringing this to my attention, lol ^^

EDIT: Also, adding on, the poll is pretty even which kind of proves that a few people actually are seeing the plot slow down, and it is getting pretty damn boring. I still would like to hear some views on the things I said about the Akatsuki's plan and whatnot. And a team fight in part 2 as good as Team 7 vs. Zabuza (I).

Also, adressing part2 as a entirely new manga may be a good idea. Since the comedy side of Naruto, has almost completely died, and it has become a bit more griddy. But, I guess some people were looking for it to become like this. Naruto still has it's cute side though, I can't see a lot of people going to their graves on the good side, but I guess we'll see what happens. My griddy ninja manga however was always Basilisk, and even though Naruto was a bit childish, it was still very enjoyable.

spactaa

November 16, 2006, 06:42 AM

"Now, IF Shikimaru did learn the elemental thing that fast that makes Naruto look like a fucking retard, and like I was saying I just thought he'd be different in part 2."

that would be a dumb conclusion. Shikamaru is da genius, is brain is like 1000 times more efficient than naruto lol.

Boss

November 16, 2006, 06:50 AM

1000 maybe stretching it my friend. And even still Naruto is the protagonist of this story, and he should not be that lame, training with thousands of clones and shit, this kid picks up a book and learns the whole science.

pjoto

November 16, 2006, 07:53 AM

Toad Sage

November 16, 2006, 05:48 PM

I agree with the original poster. The story is totally slipping and it's been slipping ever since the Sasuke confrontation back in chapter 312.

First, the new jutsu arc was meant to be about countering Sasuke's new abilities. Not only did this god awful arc last forever, it didn't even produce anything that in any post I've read can be interpreted as being useful against Sasuke. So, that was a total waste of time.

On top of that, the methods for creating the jutsu, i.e. the clones, is both illogical and unfair to the rest of the characters in the series, because it means Naruto is infinitely powerful. It also neglects to explain why Naruto only started learning from his clones once Kakashi pointed that out, or why he didn't notice the effects clones had on his psyche earlier. How many times have an entire field of Naruto's had their asses kicked by a lone ninja? I think at least one of those battles would have instilled Naruto with some ability, yet they hadn't, but now suddenly they do....

Kakashi's surprise that he could use rasengan was a total let down, as it added nothing to the story but seemed like it was going to be important. The whole point of that was to introduce the next worst concept, i.e. just re-doing rasengan. It was so unoriginal and pointless, it undermines any ounce of goodness one might have seen in the rasengan "surprise" of Kakashi's. Last, while it may seem superficial, the original poster is totally correct in saying that it's lame to see Naruto with THREE clones now to do the move. It just looks crappy and implies he doesn't know what he's doing. I don't think that the "looking left/right" metaphor was good enough to condemn the audience to a three Naruto version of rasengan forevermore.

I also want to take a moment to point out how much elemental chakara sucks and is stupid. It completely cheapens the mystery of their powers by reducing it to a system of power types. It also contradicts what we've seen in the past inasmuch as kekkei genkai are concerned, because now we're supposed to believe that ice chakara is a blood line ability but for some crazy reason shadow chakara isn't. Whatever...

Lastly, Naruto is NOT a story about beating Akatsuki. It is about Naruto's good nature and determination winning through anything. This is symbolized by his struggle with Sasuke. Hence, returning Sasuke should be the emotional focus of the story. Lately this has all been abandoned to address this nonsense with Akatsuki. Oh boy...

The whole point of this manga was to explore Naruto's philosophy, his "nindo" or whatever about never giving up and saying things straight. I loved that, and that is why the first part of the manga was so excellent because it looked at this perspective of Naruto's and its implications in his life and the lives of the people around him. Ultimately, each battle was about pitting his belief system against his opponents and showing how his point of view was superior. So, the manga pretty much argued from day one that compassion, not being judgemental, and trying hard were better than scorn, pittilessness, and natural, unearned ability-and it did this all in the form on ninja battles, which is frickin brilliant. Further, this is why being defeated by Sasuke was so tragic and sad because in spite of Naruto's nindo, he still failed-but not entirely, as Sasuke spared his life. So Kishimoto rightly left open the possibility of returning to this point.

I think I am rambling here, but my point is the story has been slipping because it has lost its way. It used to be more character driven, it had more emotional highs and emotional lows, more exciting fights. Now it's about some evil group trying to take over the world while a LOT of long, drawn out stuff that doesn't have much of a satisfying pay off gets even more long and drawn out to fill content. It's almost like filler manga compared to the filler anime. I may stop worrying week to week soon about this manga and tune back in once it gets to Sasuke or something emotionally relevant (like falling in love with Sakura, or whatever).

ttxdragon

November 16, 2006, 07:10 PM

I agree with the original poster. The story is totally slipping and it's been slipping ever since the Sasuke confrontation back in chapter 312.
you are entitled to your personal opinion, but i would like if people would try not to rant everytime people see something positive, which you don't think it is and go on making the manga bad where it still is worthwile reading for the others. it somehow makes the reader either aggressive or the reader of it starts to get his own opinion dragged down too. some people, i can't count myself in, are able to ignore people badmouthing what they like... i envy them.

First, the new jutsu arc was meant to be about countering Sasuke's new abilities. Not only did this god awful arc last forever, it didn't even produce anything that in any post I've read can be interpreted as being useful against Sasuke. So, that was a total waste of time.
useful skills? he acquired the usage of elemental chakra, further ways to use his kage bunshins, better concentration and a better understanding of his own powers. i would call all that useful, at least if i would be naruto.

On top of that, the methods for creating the jutsu, i.e. the clones, is both illogical and unfair to the rest of the characters in the series, because it means Naruto is infinitely powerful.
his infinite powerfulness is what made him able to withstand against stronger opponents, because he was able to use more of his ressources.

It also neglects to explain why Naruto only started learning from his clones once Kakashi pointed that out, or why he didn't notice the effects clones had on his psyche earlier. How many times have an entire field of Naruto's had their asses kicked by a lone ninja? I think at least one of those battles would have instilled Naruto with some ability, yet they hadn't, but now suddenly they do....
he always used the kagebunshins and always learned small things about the enemy, he didn't notice it himself, because he used his bunshins in a very simple matter up till recently. that simple way of using rendered the usefullness of this effect near to unnoticeable. but this learningeffect always helped him in the battles, even if it was just small bits... we just didn't get to see it drastically.

Kakashi's surprise that he could use rasengan was a total let down, as it added nothing to the story but seemed like it was going to be important. The whole point of that was to introduce the next worst concept, i.e. just re-doing rasengan. It was so unoriginal and pointless, it undermines any ounce of goodness one might have seen in the rasengan "surprise" of Kakashi's. Last, while it may seem superficial, the original poster is totally correct in saying that it's lame to see Naruto with THREE clones now to do the move. It just looks crappy and implies he doesn't know what he's doing. I don't think that the "looking left/right" metaphor was good enough to condemn the audience to a three Naruto version of rasengan forevermore.
while i can't say that it doesn't look kinda lame to do it with 3 peops instead of 2 and i can't argue with kakashi's surprise being kinda small, i'd still say that the redoing of the rasengan can't be completely rated until we get to see the final product.

I also want to take a moment to point out how much elemental chakara sucks and is stupid. It completely cheapens the mystery of their powers by reducing it to a system of power types. It also contradicts what we've seen in the past inasmuch as kekkei genkai are concerned, because now we're supposed to believe that ice chakara is a blood line ability but for some crazy reason shadow chakara isn't. Whatever...
where was there someone saying that the shadowcontrol techniques are made by elementally recomposing chakra? it can be just plain normal chakra that controls the shadows. furthermore it doesn't cheapen the powersystem in any way, as those elements were all time present.

Lastly, Naruto is NOT a story about beating Akatsuki. It is about Naruto's good nature and determination winning through anything. This is symbolized by his struggle with Sasuke. Hence, returning Sasuke should be the emotional focus of the story. Lately this has all been abandoned to address this nonsense with Akatsuki. Oh boy...
A goal is accomplished through walking the way, and if on the way the person itself gets targeted or other circumstances would make the goal unaccomplishable if not dealt with, dealing with that obstacle is part of the way to walk.

The whole point of this manga was to explore Naruto's philosophy, his "nindo" or whatever about never giving up and saying things straight. I loved that, and that is why the first part of the manga was so excellent because it looked at this perspective of Naruto's and its implications in his life and the lives of the people around him. Ultimately, each battle was about pitting his belief system against his opponents and showing how his point of view was superior. So, the manga pretty much argued from day one that compassion, not being judgemental, and trying hard were better than scorn, pittilessness, and natural, unearned ability-and it did this all in the form on ninja battles, which is frickin brilliant. Further, this is why being defeated by Sasuke was so tragic and sad because in spite of Naruto's nindo, he still failed-but not entirely, as Sasuke spared his life. So Kishimoto rightly left open the possibility of returning to this point.
the aim and naruto's nindo and all still are there, it still focuses on all that. but i guess kishimoto noticed his overuse of the same pattern. if naruto would've dragged on like in part 1, it would have fallen into the same "power up without changing anything"-pattern as DragonBall fell into after the freezer-arc.

again,
everybody is entitled to their opinion and can freely spread it.
but one thing you should be careful of is how you effect the other peoples opinions,
because what's good and bad is left to the person alone and always and everywhere ranting about the own opinion for the 100th time is like wanting to force people to take on the same opinion as you have.

one more thing, which might sound a bit rude, but
if you only read it to rant more about how bad it got in your opinion, just stop reading it.
if you read it to see if it gets any better and still think it is bad, but already said so million times, just stop trying to convince others about your opinion. it's not like we talk about a person killing another person here.

greetz
ttxdragon

mugen

November 16, 2006, 08:06 PM

I just thought something perhaps the reason for why it's been kind of boring and dull lately is because of Sasuke I mean who makes fun of Naruto now. Nobody so all we see is his dumbass with nobody making fun of him.A very important element in Naruto Or I don't know what do you think :noworry

jumbohiggins

November 16, 2006, 08:46 PM

latley narutos been regaining its former glory in my eyes it was on a low for a while their thou.

new jutsu's are whats bringing it back :kyuubi :sasufire :narutokyu :narsengan :sandspin

Toad Sage

November 16, 2006, 10:38 PM

ttxdragon, most of what you're saying isn't exactly true. Like, you can't explain why Naruto has never profited from kagebunshin until Kakashi developed this "method" by saying that he actually has. You don't know that and it is never implied in the manga. What is in the manga however is that this method is supposedly extremely useful and powerful, so it begs the question why was it never mentioned until now. That I can support by refering you to the past eighteen chapters.

Also, to argue that learning elemental manipulation is of intrinsic value to me is somewhat missing the point. Until recently the characters in this story were judged by their merit, not their chakara type. Elemental nature is a bit of retro-active continuity that is really meaningless, and I predict that in the coming months you'll hear less and less about it. For instance, I don't see any elemental explanation of Kakuza's abilities or Hidan's, yet they are still quite powerful. The whole point of introducing elemental chakara was for Kishimoto to make it seem he was doing something novel by remaking Naruto's signature jutsu. I think that is lazy and uncreative on his part, and that I have every right to say so in a thread entitled, "Naruto Going a Bit Downhill?"

Secondly, I don't "only read Naruto to rant about it." This thread is more or less about dissatisfaction readers have with the recent issues of Naruto. I think specifically addressing my dissatisfaction with the recent issues, rather than mocking the overall story (which I haven't done) is constructive. Ranting implies I am just making fun of the story because I don't like the entire thing, which is entirely false. I have enjoyed Naruto for 312 issues, and that's more than I can say for any American comic book. If anything, I despair of current Naruto because I like the first 312 issues so much. Expressing the idea I haven't been enjoying the recent Naruto issues in a thread that addresses that topic is not the same thing as me canvassing these message boards in an effort to convince people not to read Naruto.

I don't know at all what you mean by talking about killing people here, but I don't like the implication I shouldn't be allowed to express myself if I stay on topic... I read the thread starting post and just replied, so if you thought mistakenly I was responding to something you wrote earlier in this thread I apologize, for that was not the case. However, if you just disagree with me not liking every single chapter of Naruto, then I stand by what I've already said because that's my ninja way! heh

kadoman

November 17, 2006, 04:52 AM

Time to put my two bits worth in.

I agree with Toad Sage and some others, when they say that the quality of the manga is declining. Don't get me wrong, I still read it, I still enjoy it and I still think it's one of the better popular manga around. But when I compare Time Skip arcs with anything pre Time Skip, the high quality storytelling that I used to enjoy is simply no longer there.

Naruto has the look and feel of a manga whose lifespan is being stretched beyond its natural limit; the art has not been of the same high calibre as earlier and the pacing, structure and general direction of the story is quite obviously strained.

Call me biased, by I feel that Sasuke's departure kinda blew the wind out of the manga's sails. It lost a lot of spark after that and Sasuke's return was dragged out too long for it to be effective. When he finally did show up, it was an anti-climax that was over almost as soon as it began (which was the whole idea I suppose). Still, I feel it was a mistake for Kishi to remove from the story indefinitely, a character as integral to the story (and the main character's motivations) as Sasuke. I think it was a clever ploy at first, but that it's gone on for far too long and has only served to damage the story, rather than enhance it.

I also think Kishi has got himself in too deep where the 'loose ends' are concerned. He has said as much himself; he has too many unresolved issues and he doesn't know how he is going to tie up all the loose ends. Although I love the Akatsuki, I think he has used them as a stalling device to increase the life of the manga, either because the Powers-That-Be want to keep it going for profit, or because he requires the extra time to think about how to tie up those loose ends (or a bit of both perhaps). Another give away is that Kishi has admitted he had achieved all he'd set out to achieve at the end of the fight between Sasuke and Naruto (pre Time Skip) and that he has the ending of the manga in mind, but that he just has to navigate his way there somehow. Well, I think we can tell, and that's the problem - for me anyway.

I don't mean to make it sound like I think the manga is rubbish or that I don't enjoy it anymore. I still love Naruto and I still think Kishi is a fantastic storyteller who has a real knack for creating memorable, believable characters. I just think that Sasuke's departure took the 'edge' off the manga and took the 'edge' off Naruto too. I'm sure that once Kishi starts wrapping up the manga, it will return to its former glory, but right now it's in a slump.

[br]Posted on: 17 November 2006, 05:43:40_________________________________________________

you are entitled to your personal opinion, but i would like if people would try not to rant everytime people see something positive, - snip - .

Mind how you word things. Toad Sage, who is what I would call a veteren of quality posts, is hardly prone to ranting. There is a difference between ranting and engaging in a balanced and thought provoking discussion. So far, this thread falls in the latter camp. I wouldn't say anyone here is ranting. It goes without saying that everyone is entitled to their own opinion - that is what a forum is all about - expressing your opinion. :amuse You can still enjoy a story overall, but find faults with it - that is life. Nothing is perfect. We are simply stating what we think those faults are.

ttxdragon

November 17, 2006, 07:28 AM

for the ranting thing - as i said, i might have sounded a bit rude and it wasn't only at toad and those that make good posts, but there are others who just say 'that sucks', and that might have effected my mood here.

Also, to argue that learning elemental manipulation is of intrinsic value to me is somewhat missing the point. Until recently the characters in this story were judged by their merit, not their chakara type. Elemental nature is a bit of retro-active continuity that is really meaningless, and I predict that in the coming months you'll hear less and less about it. For instance, I don't see any elemental explanation of Kakuza's abilities or Hidan's, yet they are still quite powerful.
please take into account on which level the former fights were. despite all the raw power, it was still only on genin/chounin level. those two levels are - as you can find many situations in the manga - using at most one element or it is a kekkai genkai. thus this late introduction makes sense, as naruto himself only relied on raw-power up till now and we follow naruto.

Like, you can't explain why Naruto has never profited from kagebunshin until Kakashi developed this "method" by saying that he actually has.
then refer me to a fight where this effect actually would've brought much, because the real naruto wasn't watching, please.

Naruto has the look and feel of a manga whose lifespan is being stretched beyond its natural limit; the art has not been of the same high calibre as earlier and the pacing, structure and general direction of the story is quite obviously strained.
since this point is quiet a personal point of view, i won't say your wrong, but the art of this manga has always been low quality - i needed more than 5 tries until i got over this extremly bad art (one piece is even worse, to state that here).
the pacing, structure and general direction of the story changed, in my opinion to the better.
less crying, less obvious low level jokes, less "i am invincible, the only that effects me is sasuke"-trash.
maybe it's because i never liked sasuke from the beginning....

kadoman

November 17, 2006, 08:14 AM

for the ranting thing - as i said, i might have sounded a bit rude and it wasn't only at toad and those that make good posts, but there are others who just say 'that sucks', and that might have effected my mood here.

Oh for sure, I agree with you on that point, but there are always going to be people whose contribution amounts to little more than 'it sux!' and I just ignore them. :amuse

since this point is quiet a personal point of view, i won't say your wrong...

Everybody's points of views are personal and therefore nobody is strictly 'right' or 'wrong', not that anyone is trying to say that they are right or wrong. It's just a discussion. :amuse

Just to clarify, although I am a Sasuke fan, it's not because I am a Sasuke fan that I believe the manga suffered after his departure. I simply say that from an objective (in as much as any opinion can be objective) story telling perspective. For instance, I don't like Hinata's character but if I felt that Hinata's character was integral to the story, and that her depature hurt it somehow, I would say so.

For me, it's not a matter of liking or not liking certain characters that has affected the manga negatively. I just feel that the whole premise of the manga was set up to accommodate the Naruto/Sasuke conflict (as Kishi has stated) - with Naruto representing one thing and Sasuke representing another. And they each countered one another and there was a type of balance, as it were, and now that balance has gone. Like Toad Sage said, the story has lost its way; it's like a boat without a rudder.

I still feel confident that Kishi will correct this, however.

Boss

November 17, 2006, 02:13 PM

Time to put my two bits worth in.

I agree with Toad Sage and some others, when they say that the quality of the manga is declining. Don't get me wrong, I still read it, I still enjoy it and I still think it's one of the better popular manga around. But when I compare Time Skip arcs with anything pre Time Skip, the high quality storytelling that I used to enjoy is simply no longer there.

Agreed.

maybe it's because i never liked sasuke from the beginning....

This is another reason that made me kind of fall away from Naruto. It always irratated me that they kept showing Sasuke, but every single time they did they'd only show his eyes, or he'd say two words, you know, dragged that shit on for like 10 chapters like Kishimoto made mass modifications to him; so he was hiding him to amp you up when you finally saw em' like he was going to look so badass. Then, to my dissapointment of course, Sasuke is exactly the same with a new suit. The fight between Naruto and Sasuke was baby length, and also very dissapointing.

Oh for sure, I agree with you on that point, but there are always going to be people whose contribution amounts to little more than 'it sux!' and I just ignore them. :amuse

Everybody's points of views are personal and therefore nobody is strictly 'right' or 'wrong', not that anyone is trying to say that they are right or wrong. It's just a discussion. :amuse

More good points, if you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, then you shouldn't post at all. And even though a discussion is a mild 'argument', we should not judge people's opinionated posts as right or wrong. Because it is exactly that, an opinion (unless someone mentions a wrong fact lol).

Like, you can't explain why Naruto has never profited from kagebunshin until Kakashi developed this "method" by saying that he actually has.

I'd like to agree with this, but the fact of the matter is that Kishimoto makes Naruto so stupid, that through the whole manga, he was using his bunshin incorrectly, or well just for blunt force or rasengan. Doing something smart like spying on someone with a bunshin is never something Naruto has done, thus he's never noticed. I don't understand how implying more bunshin makes the training go faster though. If Naruto is controlling all the bunshin to do the same thing, then doesn't that mean they're all learning the same thing? I dunno', maybe someone can explain it to me a little better. I think it'd make more since if he watched someone who did the Wind element Rasengan, with five clones, and they all paid attention to different aspects but that's totally different.

ttxdragon

November 17, 2006, 02:19 PM

I don't understand how implying more bunshin makes the training go faster though. If Naruto is controlling all the bunshin to do the same thing, then doesn't that mean they're all learning the same thing? I dunno', maybe someone can explain it to me a little better.
simple thing: have all kagebunshins try diffrent methods and get their observations together and you know what fails and what is the better way.
and, even if you do the same thing in the same way, your observations may differ - that's something you should at least noticed in school, as each person always has a diffrent point of view - even if they are twins/clones that viewpoint can differ.

Boss

November 17, 2006, 02:48 PM

simple thing: have all kagebunshins try diffrent methods and get their observations together and you know what fails and what is the better way.
and, even if you do the same thing in the same way, your observations may differ - that's something you should at least noticed in school, as each person always has a diffrent point of view - even if they are twins/clones that viewpoint can differ.

that's the point though, they are ALL the same person lol. Clones and twins are totally different. A clone is another actual COPY of you, so how can you, have a different viewpoint then yourself is what I'm wondering, even though I do understand the other part.

ttxdragon

November 17, 2006, 03:20 PM

RyushiX

November 17, 2006, 04:35 PM

Its not necessarily "slipping" but certainly changing. I remember back when people used SEALS to do techniques o_O. Have you ever seen Naruto use seals? (besides a short few for summoning) Also, what's up with akatsuki? they just keep turning up more people with weird abilities instead of regular skilled individuals. >.<; maybe im just weird and looking at things differently but things certainly are changing.

ttxdragon

November 17, 2006, 05:07 PM

Its (...) certainly changing.

damn you, summing up all my posts on this topic like this >.<

and naruto uses seals, but as you see him only perform KB and henge as real ninjutsus you probably don't notice that anymore. rasengan is no ninjutsu but only chakra raw-chakra form-manipulated, thus it doesn't need seals (remember jiraiya saying at the tsunade-arc beginning).

and akatsuki with their weird abilities... yeah, but it's certainly fun in a way.

gigantor21

November 17, 2006, 05:21 PM

Well, to put it in One Piece terms...

Right now, in terms of the plot and the pacing, One Piece is like Lucchi, Bleach is like Kaku, and Naruto is like Jyabura.

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, One Piece is the only series in which the plot is really moving forward right now. Bleach is moving much more slowly overall, but it's always had the fastest pace of the three series so it's not that bad. Naruto has always been the slowest-paced, and the only really huge development has been Asuma's death. Beyond that, we haven't gotten anything really new or pivotal in quite a while, which is why it probably seems like it's going "slightly downhill".

To be honest, I don't think the series is actually getting worse, so much as it's off it's game--and even considering that, I still like it more than most other series out right now. So I'm just going to keep reading it and the other series and see what happens.

The Boff

November 17, 2006, 06:31 PM

ok, i cant explain my opinions as nice as all you dudes and dudettes but here is my biggest grief about naruto as it is now:

what exactly did he learn during these two and a half years? he was under direct supervision from a sannin. and i wanna try to explain how awesome the sannin SHOULD be. you are all very familiar with the world of naruto. there are many strong ninjas there and they have many many different and sometimes weird abilities. but to become a Legend. and i mean it with the capital L. cause that was how they were introduced to us in the beginning. yes even the sannins have weaknesses i know that but to become a Legend, you have to be really kick ass. but apparently theyre not. or maybe they are. kishimoto contradicts himself there, Orochimaru says that he can not win against Itachi. But Itachi says that he AND Kisame would have difficulties fighting Jiraya. and we have been given the impression from Jiraya that Orochimaru is slightly better than him. contradictory? yup.

anyways, the point im trying to make is that why did not the living Legend that trained Naruto for 2 and a half years teach him his element? WHY? Jiraya wants Naruto to control the Kyuubi, i know that. but was that really the ONLY thing they did during 2 and a half years? thats a frigging long time! what have we seen Naruto do since the timeskip and before the new training? he had a scroll with a big shuriken, that was cool. He used his clones in a positive way in the second belltraining. Odama Rasengan, ok that was awesome. and 4 tails. did i miss anything?

Sakura. what did she do before the timeskip? cry about sasuke-kun, pretty much all the time. she did not have any jutsus except the basics. Sakura after the training. Shes a totally different person. She is a KICKASS mednin, her Taijutsu skills are through the roof and she hits hard as hell. so she has matured a whole lot!
and supposedly Sasuke is strong as hell too. we havent seen him do anything except channel lightning through his body, but apparently he's really strong now. OH i forgot, he can go inside Narutos seal and stop the most dangerous demon in that world with just a look......... lame.

im gonna stop ranting now cause im only talking in circles.. but my grief is that everyone is getting stronger REALLY stronger. except the guy that this manga is supposed to be about. his name is even in the title, Naruto.

Boss

November 17, 2006, 07:09 PM

maybe they are told to look at other perspectives?
naruto may not be the brightest, but he should at least know that diffrent viewpoints bring diffrent experiences thus enabling him to know more.

True, but even though this is probably the case Kishi should have mentioned this. Lack of detail causes confusion.

Its not necessarily "slipping" but certainly changing. I remember back when people used SEALS to do techniques o_O. Have you ever seen Naruto use seals?

I actually liked the hand seals, and I did notice this a while ago. Even Chidori has hand seals, and I'm pretty sure Sasuke did not use them when he did it agaisnt Naruto and it was all around his body. That imo is just a dumbass move.

And yeah Naruto does uses hand seals for Summoning Jutsu and Kage Bunshin

Rokudaime Hokage

November 18, 2006, 12:44 PM

I think the problem is that Kishimoto is forced to develop the story in many points the way the masses want the manga to develop.The thing is that to many kiddies are reading naruto. It all started after The Konoha Genins went after Sasuke and the 4 Soundnin. Neji and Choji certainly should be dead after the fights. There are just to many dumb charakters like Choji, Hinata and the Insects guy for example.
I almost smashed my screen reading that Asuma still having a heartbeat. I would have puked if he would have survived.
It just takes the thrill out of a story if the characters are not able to die. Why wouldnt Naruto go to Akatsuki and kill them all at once...he cannot die cause hes naruto. same goes for al the other named charakters.

Egoboo

November 18, 2006, 01:16 PM

Why wouldnt Naruto go to Akatsuki and kill them all at once...he cannot die cause hes naruto.

Aaaaand that is why you never read books and/or watch movies, right? since...you know...i kinda can´t remember that many cases with a hero dying in a battle with the bad guy. Unless it´s the final battle and the story has switched to another hero (for example "Leon" where the focus simply turns to the girl in the end)
That´s the concept of stories about extraordinary people, often called heroes: they don´t die because they are heroes. They only die when/if their purpose is fulfilled.
And guess what? I suppose those "dumb" characters (nice job on not telling us why you think of them as dumb btw) still have a purpose and a part in the story they have to fulfill. Simple as that, every story is build on that principle.
...oh and welcome to the board ^_^
(Don´t take this personal and please don´t think i can´t understand your need for some drama in the story. I got the same need. )

Rokudaime Hokage

November 19, 2006, 01:47 PM

you got me...
now I don't like some of the Charakters (especially Sai who I think is the most boring character in the manga up to now)
because they are just not interesting and original enough to excite me. They just take the panel time from the others and never do something that counts.
Choji defeated the one from the Sound 4 by taking the red pill, that would kill you afterwards. Wasn't that a good end for him? I mean he would have fulfilled his purpose as a hero, basta. But Choji lives and for me he is already spent, so he turns uninteresting. Why wouldn't the clan of Choji all take their red pill in and go destroy the world ? or give it to Naruto who would have enough Chakra to finish even Ultimate Boo when they know that you can be saved after you took that pill ?

And for the example with Naruto killing of Aktsuki you could change him with any other of the former genins.

Another thing I dislike in Naruto is that Kishimoto puts in too many logical mistakes. As the story advances he seems to forget the things he invented.

Egoboo

November 19, 2006, 03:05 PM

As far as i remember the manga said that there was a high chance of dying when using the red pills, not that death is a certain. Gotta check that in the manga ^^´´.
But you are right, the fact that both Neji and Chouji survived their severe injuries did catch me by surprise back then. I really did expect at least one of them to die, especially since both of them had a great last sentence or thought before breaking down.
However, i think Kishi allowed them to survive because Naruto (the character, not the manga) is not supposed to be driven by revenge himself, it´s quite the opposite: his urge to SAVE Sasuke has become the factor driving him the most. The death of one or even two fellow comrades because of Sasuke´s attempt to betray the Leaf would have totally changed everyone: at least two teams (Team Gai and Team Asuma) would have lost one of their members, and the consequences of a loss like that because of a betrayal by an idol like Sasuke would have been quite....drastic.
Guess it would have made the entire manga much darker since almost the entire main staff would have been somehow shellshocked by that: the girls would be crushed to realize that the death of their comrades was their beloved Sasuke-kun´s fault, Shika would have been the way he is right now (Emomode engaged) and i don´t even want to know how Naruto and Sakura would have developed. Naruto (the manga this time ;)) is a shonen manga, originally aimed at boys at around age 13-15...a cast of mini-Sasukes with enormous psychological problems (and at least half of them driven by revenge) wouldn´t be appropriate for that audience, i guess.
......this is getting OT, but i have to admit it´s kinda inspiring... *goes off to write an angsty fanfic based on this*

Garaku

November 19, 2006, 03:50 PM

*Reads through entire thread*

GASP! :o*slaps "ttxdragon" for insulting One Piece art~* :modsmack
I know it's your opinion, but I just can't let it go by that it was worse than red scribble Kyubbi! Some of the world actually consider the art to be quite beautiful.... *Cough* Moving back on topic!

I do agree that Naruto has slowed down as in pace of story, but I don't blame the lack of character development/jutsus. I blame the lack of spirit and originality. As stated before, Naruto just isn't showing his "My Nindo" spirit, and the simple base of "2+1= Super killer move" is well... a let down. Throw in a bit of cash for war world domination plan, and well... ya.... can you really say "I'm scared" from that?

On a positive note at least the plot's moving, and we are learning something if not anything.

For people who ask why we continue to read Naruto if we think it's slowing/boring?; I say we Naruto fans havent given up on Kishimoto just yet, and are holding out until his writing comes back with avengance!

*Slaps "ttxdragon" again for insulting One Piece art* :eyeroll :fry

panzerzanaku

November 19, 2006, 04:06 PM

i think its goin downhill
most of the new characters arent interest enough and the old characters arent getting enough time.

personally i hate naruto himself in my opinion hes selfish, he only wants his views to be the right veiw and everyone else is wrong.

the whole bit about him having a bad childhood os just crap bcuz i think his life was great compared to sasuke(his own brother killed his family and clan, can u imagine how that must feel ), gaara(his life was just F**KEd up big time, and to see him just change like that just bcuz somebody say a few things to him is kinda lame in my opinion).

the jiraiya training he seriously needs to xplain what the hell happened during those 2 years, if naruto is supposed to be an underdog u wud think he wud have come back with atleast 10 new cool new jutsus to show case his whole point of being determined to show everybody hes better than wat they think of him. Instead he comes back the same old stupid naruto after being trained by a sanin(WTF), he still dosent know any of the basics, he has one jutsu hes not suppose to use, the same kage bunshin, some other form of rasengan, and to make ,matters even worse his so called new jutsu hes working on now is basically another varied rasengan( seriously now kishimoto WTF WTF ) this is why i hate naruto soo much and is startint to dislike where the manga is heading.

Basically naruto himself is just goin to go into every fight( ohh i cant keep up let me use the kyuubis power and guess i have this one jutsu i can take u all out ). I'm sure naruto cant be that dumb that he cant learnt a string of jutsus that he uses just like every other character that makes sense in the manga( reason y i say makesense is bcuz Hidan is not a ninja at all he does one thing, standing in a circle.).

seriously wat is the point of sai, this character needs to not be there kishi already has too manu characters.

i wud seriously like to see more of sasuke, itachi , kisema , oro, and the other genins xcluding asuma team cuz i personally think they suck( not very entertaing).

another thing is if kakashi has soo many jutsu why dosent he teach some of them to naruto and sakura, i mean it only makes sense since hes there sensei.

and we have yet to see them come up with there own jutsus.

as for the fights i know kishi can do much much better than the crap we just got.

as for the akatsuki i dont think any of the other members will be as cool as itachi,sasori and kisema in my opinion with the xception of the AL, thats just how i feel.

ttxdragon

November 19, 2006, 04:18 PM

*Reads through entire thread*

GASP! :o*slaps "ttxdragon" for insulting One Piece art~* :modsmack
I know it's your opinion, but I just can't let it go by that it was worse than red scribble Kyubbi! Some of the world actually consider the art to be quite beautiful.... *Cough* Moving back on topic!

*Slaps "ttxdragon" again for insulting One Piece art* :eyeroll :fry

nyahahahaha xD
and i would insult the one piece art ever and always again even if it costs me my life because i get hunted down by hardcorefans... :P and the art of naruto isn't that good too, just better than one piece. it's easier to learn to ignore the lacking art of naruto than it is on one piece. although the naruto art picked up in terms of quality lately.

on another note:
egoboo is quite right with the 'it wouldve made the manga totally diffrent and darker' and to add to that, it certainly would've changed the goal here. although i see naruto killing sasuke in the end and a scene like they showed in the anime when chidori/rasengan matched up in between.

on to the topic:
this is quite a ridiculous opinion and may be based on the fact that i do not read naruto since too long, but if you read naruto from the beginning onwards in one go, for me at least, part one felt like an extended introduction arc with very much detail >.>

*prepares to get hunted down and slaughtered by naruto and one piece fans

*runs off to hide

ophidial

November 19, 2006, 06:11 PM

i think its goin downhill
most of the new characters arent interest enough and the old characters arent getting enough time.

personally i hate naruto himself in my opinion hes selfish, he only wants his views to be the right veiw and everyone else is wrong.

the whole bit about him having a bad childhood os just crap bcuz i think his life was great compared to sasuke(his own brother killed his family and clan, can u imagine how that must feel ), gaara(his life was just F**KEd up big time, and to see him just change like that just bcuz somebody say a few things to him is kinda lame in my opinion).

the jiraiya training he seriously needs to xplain what the hell happened during those 2 years, if naruto is supposed to be an underdog u wud think he wud have come back with atleast 10 new cool new jutsus to show case his whole point of being determined to show everybody hes better than wat they think of him. Instead he comes back the same old stupid naruto after being trained by a sanin(WTF), he still dosent know any of the basics, he has one jutsu hes not suppose to use, the same kage bunshin, some other form of rasengan, and to make ,matters even worse his so called new jutsu hes working on now is basically another varied rasengan( seriously now kishimoto WTF WTF ) this is why i hate naruto soo much and is startint to dislike where the manga is heading.

whoa geez, having a good life compared to gaara doesn't make his childhood
any less worst, when it comes to the past gaara's as bad as they come
and kishi as already emphasised that and on sasukes note, you
know the saying 'better to have loved...' he's just to young and immature to
realise it.
on the second note, you're expecting naruto to learn at the pace of
a genius which it is clearly stated that he isn't, i mean cutting a stupid leaf
is supposed to take 6 months.

Hawkeye

November 19, 2006, 06:17 PM

Naruto is just one of those mangas for me that translate mush better in anime forum then in manga i just started reading the manga like 3 months back so don't start jumping on me but personally i think the manga all together is just big yawn fest. One piece on the other hand has just kept on getting more and more exciting though i am hoping that naruto will start to get a bit more enticing soon so i dont have to quit reading and watching the anime and manga all together

white silver

November 19, 2006, 09:09 PM

[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]Naruto has too many "cliffhangers", it gets really boring after that, he makes the 5 chapters feel like 1 chapter, and I agree with you Hawkeye, the pace of One Piece chapters is a whole lot different and the story feels longer, and you get that "satisfaction" feel after reading each chapters, a few "cliffhangers" but all at the right time!

poopoomaru

November 20, 2006, 03:12 AM

white silver

November 20, 2006, 04:08 AM

There we go I think you just said it , the problem is you get no real satisfaction after you read a chapter of Naruto. You nailed it Mr. WhiteSilver.

[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]Why thank you poopoomaru!

Luckas

November 20, 2006, 04:42 PM

I think BoffenJl and Kadoman pointed correctely the main problems of Naruto part 2, which, imho, is good but clearly inferior to Naruto part 1. I believe another main unresolved issue is the manga predictability, think to: the Akatsuki plan, the adding of the wind element to the rasengan and the use of the third clone for the wind rasengan. I accepted the first two, even if I didn't jump for the joy, bu the third is too much; it is as if we didn't need to read the manga but is enough to check the fans predictions on the forums. So, imho, in Naruto part 2 there are some problems which overshadows the new good things, for example I like the new character, Sai and Yamato.

Gold Knight

November 20, 2006, 06:57 PM

I didn't really have a problem with Asuma's death, although I agree that the fight could have been expanded and a little bit less anticlimatic. I would have liked to see Asuma, also, take out at least one of the Akatsuki, but I suppose that would have really disrupted Akatsuki activites even further. But the death itself I thought gave the series more tension and uncertainty before, and I appreciate that.

But I agree in general that Naruto has become more predictable and that it does not have the same element of surprise as it used to do in Part 1.

The 'bunshin' bit was something I'd predicted to happen for several weeks now, and I was hoping I'd be wrong. And Kishimoto did let us all almost two months in advance that he was planning to kill off Asuma, and he went through with it.

Well, that was something I still thought that perhaps wouldn't happen - part of me thought that perhaps Shikamaru would live up to his promise of not failing anymore and saving Asuma - and it did happen. But you get my meaning.

With Part 1, I'm not sure any of us ever exactly knew what was going to happen next. With Part 2, it's been pretty easy so far. So, yeah. That's been the biggest disappointment for me of Part 2. Hopefully Kishimoto will do better with the next arc.

He did surprise me by having Kakashi (if it is him) come to Team Shikamaru and joining in the most recent chapter, so we'll see where it goes from here.

white silver

November 20, 2006, 08:12 PM

[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]No matter what I still have my most utmost respect to Kishimoto.

mugen

November 20, 2006, 08:56 PM

[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]No matter what I still have my most utmost respect to Kishimoto.

True true anybody who can't agree with that should just stop reading Naruto ;)

DATTEBAYO!!!!!!! :p

Boss

November 20, 2006, 09:41 PM

True true anybody who can't agree with that should just stop reading Naruto ;)

DATTEBAYO!!!!!!! :p

heh that's the main reason why I stopped reading it :p but yeah, Naruto has gotten quite predictable GK, and so has Bleach honestly. When I saw the kid arrancar and Ichigo is just like, wow these guys are so weak... all I could think was "Well... that tell me he's going to be a badass." Only manga I still read that is unpredictable is Eyeshield 21... and maybe Hajime no Ippo

Toad Sage

November 20, 2006, 09:46 PM

I guess it's worth pointing out that we're involved in the gruesome middle segment of the story, and in truth most stories have difficulties in this stage. So, I don't lack respect for Kishimoto, because he was able to carry a manga for 312 issues, all of which were interesting in my opinion. I just can't understand why he disembarked from what was shaping up to be a very well paced, character driven story into all this recent insanity. I think if the story was done correctly that big moment with Sasuke would have been handled much differently and been far more fundamental. As it stands now, it was a twenty issue digression into showing Sasuke's face again in the story which was unfortunate, because as Kadoman very eloquently put it, Sasuke is essential to making this story work.

EDIT: I'm turning into some kind of slug lately, as everything I am writing is full of mistakes and reads like crap.

Raine_Joybringer

November 20, 2006, 11:59 PM

It's funny because Naruto does seem a lot more realistic to me than other manga. Sometimes bouts of "instanity" can be a good thing because, just like life, it's chaotic and unplanned for too. Maybe Kishimoto never really planned for it being Asuma who would die when he was writing it, but then it just turned out that way. I've had stuff like that happen to me in writing all the time :/

bax

November 21, 2006, 10:21 AM

As for the thread title, I personally had to disagree. In my view, the training, the short battle in Akatsuki and Asuma's death are a set of preparation for Kishi to ready the story to evolve into the next level. Yeah, if it's viewed in short term context, it may looks like Naruto is lacking of previous intensity.

But if it's viewed as in long term story, we already have many materials to relate the upcoming events. For example, Shikamaru now knows how to deal with Hidan after losing to him previously, rather than just winning on the spot. It would make the story more interesting.

Well, that is my 2 cents.

weixiaobao

November 21, 2006, 10:27 AM

well anyway. I must said "Naruto, the character" is going downhill = sentimental fool. But anyway, Kishimoto may surprise us, .... someday, when you read too many boring stuff then you read good stuff it made you feel the good stuff is a super duper good stuff (i'm confused now). I most disappointed on the Arc with Sai and go get sasuke back. That arc like Dragon Ball Z (not even at Dragon Ball level) and Kabuto (seem so strong before, he even fight even against Kakashi and Goddaime but useless in that arc). seem with Sakura (get knock out)

I am even more disappointed in Naruto training (it made you feel like Naruto is cheating- that he can go so far, beyond others' level)

But anyway I have alot of respect to kishimoto as a Naruto fan and a manga fan. But much more respect go to ODA.

white silver

November 21, 2006, 08:42 PM

I am even more disappointed in Naruto training (it made you feel like Naruto is cheating- that he can go so far, beyond others' level)

[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]Not necessarily, he has the Kyubi's chakra to help him you know! Which is why he can only perform this training

LightReaper

November 22, 2006, 05:04 AM

As Toad Sage said and I agree with, the manga seems to be hitting the middle part of the story (not the middle of the manga), and it's hard to have a decent middle, very hard. Bleach is struggling and so is Naruto; we have nothing worthwhile to look forward to unless we're a fan of Akatsuki (and after hearing that all they aspire to is money, they have turned kind of lame =/; Hidan is in the right) or Naruto development (which has disappointed many, instead of some actual decent progression of Naruto's skills we have a Rasengan 1.5 with added Bunshin. It's weak and seems like a step back from the RAPID progression Naruto had before the timeskip, and without Sasuke to help keep things interesting, things have died down.

I honestly believe that if Sai had kept his edginess and general 'unfeeling bastard' personality then we could of had quality chapters with Naruto once again finding a rival for a time and inject some kind of LIFE into this part of the story. But as it is Naruto as a character has nothing 'going for him', and it seems like Shikamaru and the Akatsuki are being used as 'manga filler' to give Kishi time to think of something.

Before the timeskip Sasuke was progressing much MUCH slower than Naruto and was resentful, now Sasuke has flown straight out of Naruto's league (non Kyuubi), who knows how much power Sasuke would have if he used curse seal? Why has Kishi felt the need to make Naruto lag behind so much? Where is the training Jiraiya *SHOULD* of given him.

So many niggling issues that are piling up, and when you turn to One Piece which has also JUST reached the half way point in terms of story and is going from strength to strength (consistently good chapters for at least 20 chapters now); you've got to reflect back on Naruto time skip and think how far it has fallen.

And on a side note, whoever was commenting on Naruto vs One Piece art (something dragon) - It's a matter of personal taste, but to say the Naruto art has *improved*? I was under the impression it had fallen in grace lately, Tsunade has looked a little odd for a while now and to a certain degree Ino and Kurenai have the same issue. At least the male art hasn't slipped.

mars0103

November 22, 2006, 07:28 AM

yes a i agree that naruto has lost some pacing but i think that the battle with the undead guy was some time comusing. but less pacing is a good thing because it is building up again hopfully because the last though chapters are as good a flashback chapters to set up the arcs.

i hate flashback chapters

weixiaobao

November 22, 2006, 09:31 AM

[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]Not necessarily, he has the Kyubi's chakra to help him you know! Which is why he can only perform this training

That what I meant, he can only perform it (can only). Only him. him only.

Anyway. I think the pace will pick up as soon as Naruto finish his training, since there too many enemy and they all gonna die, so the story will pick it self up soon. Like next chapter would be good.

ShadowStrike

November 22, 2006, 12:43 PM

weixiaobao

November 22, 2006, 12:50 PM

kadoman

November 22, 2006, 02:21 PM

If you are unhappy with what's going on then it's because you're expecting something else. I think it's pointless to have such expectations. First of all, Kishi is the author the story and he will write it the way he likes it and with his own fantasies. I believe it's none of our business to be saying what he should and could have written. It is entirely up to him. We read the manga because we wanna know his story. Let him take his time to tell, it'll be a much better story then.

Nobody is saying (as far as I know) that they're so unhappy with the story they want to stop reading it. We're just saying what we find it lacks, or needs improvement on, or where it's getting slow etc.

I think nearly everyone here has respect for Kishimto as an artist and storyteller, but it's only natural to point out flaws or weaknesses in anyone's story. Even Dickens and Shakespeare have their critics and have written some passages or chapters that are boring or make no sense (personally, I think the 'gold box' scene in Merchant of Venice is completely and utterly pointless). :amuse

No, none of us are qualified to tell a mangaka how he should write his manga, but as fans, we like to point out what we think are the manga's strengths and weaknesses. It's that kind of discussion that leads to better understanding of the manga, in my opinon.

Some of the opinions in this thread have certainly given me food for thought and I think that's a good thing.

pjoto

November 22, 2006, 04:38 PM

I agree with "movingstone", it's kinda starting to feel like each time Naruto is having problems with doing something, anything, he just says "GIVE ME POWER YOU DUMB FOX, OR I'LL KILL US BOTH!" and suddenly everything works out great.

It is kinda like cheating.

But of course, there aren't only possitive sides with having a big-ass demon sealed in with your soul, which kinda ying/yangs it out.

Also, as Gold Knight said;
"But the death itself I thought gave the series more tension and uncertainty before, and I appreciate that."

Yeah, the uncertainty help allot, people are actually starting to die, which makes everything harder to predict.
In Part 1, you always _KNEW_ everyone would survive and return to the village, whenever they went out on a job, the worst that could happen was that they might not complete the job 100% as planned, but we knew for certain that they would all survive. Now it's not that simple any more. :)

Anyway, for everyone that feels Naruto Part 2 is going downhill, you must all be blind. It's buildning up to something big.
Just because there isn't a Rock Lee VS Gaara fight in every chapter, it doesn't mean it's getting boring, Kishimoto is laying out a plot and story that will make us understand what's going on later on.
He's connecting the holes and, gah, it's hard to explain, but really, just wait, it'll continue rocking on :)

Also, for some weird reason, when the anime starts up again, I got a feeling none of this will matter any more, I think it's because the chapters are to small, so everyone feels like they get too little Naruto each week :p

mars0103

November 22, 2006, 05:53 PM

weixiaobao

November 23, 2006, 03:23 PM

llamapie

November 27, 2006, 09:32 AM

EEEkkk the horrid filler mentality is spreading.

Let me put it this way, much of you who are dissing and not satisfied with Naruto right now is because Kishi likes to anger us with an annoyingly ironic cliff hanger every week. You have to look at the story. I would like to see kishi add a love element besides sakura constantly on Sasuke's nuts.

Anyways the story is developing into something great, Naruto will not have a happy ending.

gigantor21

November 27, 2006, 11:03 AM

Well, for me, what's frustrating is the fact that Naruto has the opposite problem of Bleach right now--instead of having fast paced chapters in which not much happens overall, Kishimoto seems to be taking WAY too long to build up to whatever he's building up.

So much so that I'm not really waiting for it anymore. I just sort of read the chapters every week without thinking about what happens much, and it's not very engaging. I feel like I should stop reading the manga for, like, three or four months. Maybe if I read two volumes of new stuff in one go, it'll be more interesting.

Rokudaime Hokage

November 28, 2006, 05:56 AM

The greatest disappointment so far was that Hidan is still alive... He was ambushed perfectly...but...
When I read that chapter where they ambushed him, I was like : "whooohoooo ! The best thing since a long long time. Really Ninja like." But what had to happen... That Guy they ambushed is IMMORTAL! Now they go back to using High-energy Blasts.

white silver

November 28, 2006, 11:28 AM

The greatest disappointment so far was that Hidan is still alive...

[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]Are you sure? I mean he's really going to get his ass kicked now!

Rokudaime Hokage

November 29, 2006, 10:03 AM

Raine_Joybringer

November 30, 2006, 05:34 AM

I'm pretty sure... :)
I mean come on, he is immortal.
Thats not really original from Kishimoto. Not just that, but Kakuzu sew Hidans head back and its like nothing happened...
all the nerves and everything are totally okay!?

I have to admit that the head attaching thing did seem less complicated than it really should be... but we ARE talking about ninja here...

Rokudaime Hokage

November 30, 2006, 10:52 AM

Kakuzu is the Nr.1 medical ninja in the whole world, Tsunade should learn something from him...

extrasport161

November 30, 2006, 11:17 AM

well i think the whole head-sew-on jutsu was to show how dierdra (sp?) got his arms back. i do agree that it was lame, more in the sense that his body was still moving sans-head. if his body went limp after the whole head removal, i would be more open to accepting it.

as for naruto being boring now, i still enjoy it. i like where it is right now being somewhat balanced between talking and action. it might be slow one chapter but picks up the next. this last chapter was great. we went straight from getting an explanation to an example all in one go.

Rokudaime Hokage

November 30, 2006, 11:37 AM

Now after chapter 333 I have refreshed hope for Naruto the manga. Lets all hope Kakuzu is dead, Hidan will die and Naruto finishes an original, cool new Jutsu, which is no knock-off of some already existing technique (DBZ) .

Kusachu

November 30, 2006, 11:49 AM

the way i look at it is this, if Kishimoto "hurried up" then the manga would be that much closer to being over and i don't want it to be over. I would actually like to see it slow down a bit and get more involved with the other characters and start getting into a lot more 'personal' stuff (Damn it SOMEONE needs make out with SOMEONE! ANY TWO WILL DO! lol). I pesoanally hate waiting for each chapter and it seems to move slow and all, but as long as he doesn't start doing 14 page all action chapters like he was doing for a while, then i say he's doing great. It's been out for 7 years!! can you even imagine what a pain in the ass it's got to be to get new chapters out almost every week and please everybody all the time?! Give kishimoto a break and props where props are due i say.

rant done. X]

extrasport161

November 30, 2006, 02:27 PM

agreed, Kusachu. it's been a long time since we've seen something more than a one chapter update from hinata, shino, kiba, and the rest. where are they now? what new skills do they have? and what happened with sai and root? i don't mind the slower pace as long as its interesting stuff that everyone wants to know about.

white silver

December 01, 2006, 08:32 AM

[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]Kishimoto is quickening the pace now! LOVED the curreent chapter. If he keeps doing this it would be the end of this thread!

tricel

December 01, 2006, 01:58 PM

actually the manga has been going on for such along time now..,but we haven't learned anything about naruto..,especially about his parents/relatives. we already know lot of things about sasuke's past,gaara,neji,etc but kishimoto never empazise or give a damn about naruto's past/childhood.so for me it's time for kishimoto to clear wether naruto is really the yondaime's son/or is he another orochimaru's clone experiment like yamato.i also like to see a lot of what naruto learned from jiraiya.

gao_dargon

January 22, 2007, 10:54 PM

im not saing that naruto is getting worst or something, i love naruto, but i do miss the more complex fights like sasuke vs haku or rock lee vs gaara and the more "simple" jutsus that used alot of hand seals and were not so "big" but in my point of view were more impresive, as i said before i love naruto but it has changed alot now its more impresive powers less fisical fights, so wut do u think?

Merged topic with this thread since it deals with the same question. ~ WL

nighthawksw

January 22, 2007, 10:58 PM

I agree it has changed quite a bit...it is more "techniques" now and you don't get the hand-to-hand fighting that we used to get~ But i'm sure it'll come back with less "immortal" characters (refuring to manga). Lee'll be returning, remember? he's only capable of taijutsu...we should get more physical action around then.

As for the anime...fillers don't count for anything IMO >_>;

War

January 23, 2007, 01:27 AM

For me, I still think Naruto ROCKS. I don't see Naruto getting downhill, although there's less fights like lee-gaara anymore. :(

Anyway, I sitll think the fights are entertaining. ^^

I'm a very simple guy with no high expectations. :p

twilight deity link

January 23, 2007, 08:02 AM

I still really like it
yeah sure it's taken pretty long
but the fights are so addictive

(hmm...... are there 2 d's or 1 d hmm......)

kyuuzo11

January 23, 2007, 02:01 PM

My Opinion every manga has it's good times and it's bad times and this isn't even that bad of a time.

My Suggestions; go to mangavolume.com, start with chapter one of 666 Satan, read until 64, by the time your done maybe a chapter 259 and (260 if you read slow) will be released and we'll be amazed.

2ndHokage

January 26, 2007, 03:09 PM

I think it's so funny that all of you criticize naruto's progress. You say that he can't really do anything but none of you have even see him fight. When they went up against sasuke, well sasuke is sasuke. I doubt even the akatsuki could take him on. I mean, he's being trained by oro, and oro was a former member. Another thing is: What do you think this whole new revolutionary method of training was presented for??? Naruto is no genious. He learns through hard work and determination. Which means, he simply is not capable of progressing as fast as others. But now he IS able to progress extremely raplidly through his bunshin. Just wait for the next chapter. You're gonna see " a whole new naruto"! Naruto has always rocked. And I totally stick with kashimoto in waiting this long to make naruto kickass. Having a main character like sasuke who obtains all his talents naturally is just rediculous. Naruto has to work hard for everything he obtains. Sasuke just sits back. And when he kicks ass on that heartstealing mask using old ass pussy akatsuki, then you're all gonnna be rootin for naruto. Posted on: January 26, 2007, 04:03:46 PM_________________________________________________

im not saing that naruto is getting worst or something, i love naruto, but i do miss the more complex fights like sasuke vs haku or rock lee vs gaara and the more "simple" jutsus that used alot of hand seals and were not so "big" but in my point of view were more impresive, as i said before i love naruto but it has changed alot now its more impresive powers less fisical fights, so wut do u think?

[b]Merged topic with this thread since it deals with the same question. ~ WL

I disagree. I think the fact that everything is so "big" now is because everyone's older, and it's a completely new level. Everyone's going to use much more advanced techniques, and everyone's going to be able to do much more damage as they get older. I mean cmon, it's realistic. I think you'd be MORE dissapointed if you saw everyone grown up, and still fighting in the same way, with the same techniques. But that doesn't mean that there aren't any good fights anymore: sakura and old senin vs. akatsuki puppet master. That was an awesome fight.

king_crimson-

January 26, 2007, 07:21 PM

well, it's not one piece(well, OP also has got a weak point in the skypea arc...), there are many things i really don't like in the latest chapters, there are so many things i didn't liked in the older chapters, yet the story is still so interesting and is getting even better now that we finally got a real protagonist in naruto, who looks thousand times more stronger cool and badass than how he was just in the orochimaru/sasuke arc...

and well, i occasionally looked at the previous post last lines, so i want to say that the sasori vs chyo+sakura fight is exactly one of the things i disliked much...i still think that sasori should have owned both the granny and sakura with the 3rd's doll...or at least, it should have been the old woman the one to defeat that doll, not sakura...

mugen

January 26, 2007, 08:14 PM

well Naruto is too dumb now ...
i mean it was not even a new jutsu naruto created :noworry
and second Masashi still uses the same jutsu all the time..
kage bunshin no jutsu...
need i say more?
anyways look below my avatar :jbya

Shouji

January 26, 2007, 08:20 PM

i just hope a new ninja wars happen , that was the better part of the manga

mugen

January 26, 2007, 08:22 PM

i just hope a new ninja wars happen , that was the better part of the manga

that is exactly what Naruto needs!!!!
I mean like Orochimaru said it's been too peaceful.
boring...
they need a war!!

gao_dargon

January 27, 2007, 12:07 AM

yes, they r getting older, and lazyer, i mean they only use ONE justsu,that being rasengan,chidori,the super punch of sakura etc, they use to do alot of justu convination, but now they stick to one strong jutsu and thats it, what hapend to all the hand seals movements, and the more fabricated jutsu, the fight betwen gaara and rock lee, even made sarutobi cramble, and he was a very strong hokage, i may dare to say the stronger only beaten by the 4º, nowdays all they do is some jutsu (with no hand seals, and sorry to say this to much but thats the base of ninjutsu) and a big bumm and thats it, if thats the case might ass well use gunpownder or something, and as i said before, i still love the story thats y i keep reading it, and it does have thouse moments when im in the edge of my seat, but, the fights, its like a big bleh

Shouji

January 27, 2007, 03:22 PM

War

January 28, 2007, 04:20 AM

i am mad of naruto now because of the akatsuki, i think they where te strongest ninja of the world ho could take countries alone.. they want to conquer the world .. but keep losing to few konohas chunnins

Haha. The thing is, the chuunins are no ordinary chuunins. And this isn't even the better part of the Akatsuki.

Btw, remember that they were strong enough to take out Asuma.

mugen

January 28, 2007, 05:54 AM

Haha. The thing is, the chuunins are no ordinary chuunins. And this isn't even the better part of the Akatsuki.

Btw, remember that they were strong enough to take out Asuma.

umm...
no :oh
they may not be your average chunnins but they are not jounin

War

January 28, 2007, 08:04 AM

umm...
no :oh
they may not be your average chunnins but they are not jounin

But Naruto is better than an average jounin. And so are some of the others. :)

mugen

January 28, 2007, 12:27 PM

But Naruto is better than an average jounin. And so are some of the others. :)

he is ?
i don't think so...
maybe him, Sakura, Sasuke and Sai :noworry
but team 10 and team 8 except for Shino..
I doubt it...
I mean what can they do?
Shikamaru has brain but that's it!

Toad Sage

January 28, 2007, 02:57 PM

king_crimson-

January 28, 2007, 04:33 PM

that's exactly the point...i think sasuke and naruto are at the jounin level(sasuke i think is already at kakashi's level, and naruto seems also to have reached that level...) but the others are definitely NOT at the jounin level(except for neji, who IS a jounin)...and that's exactly because they are NOT jounin...

and the part that is even more funniest to me, is exactly that hidan was able to take out asuma and then was defeated by shikamaru in 1vs1...

but hey, it's from the very beginning that we see those kind of things(remember the sounds 4? they defeated those two strong jounins, but then lose to a bunch of chunnin levels shinobi...)

mugen

January 28, 2007, 08:56 PM

Brains, eh? He just killed an Akatsuki member. Whenever a weaker character defeats a stronger character, that usually indicates a high level of ability/prowess. Shikamaru is therefore a powerful character, as least as strong as the jonin extras you see getting waxed by a few stray kunai in the Konohoa invasion scene, for example.

well tell me has he ever won a fight?
and he really did not beat Hidan.
and his jutsu is so useless if he ends up fighting alone.
i mean that is all he has.
he has no taijutsu, ninjutsu other than his shadow bind, and he has no genjutsu.

Toad Sage

January 28, 2007, 09:11 PM

What are you talking about, Mugen? The last ten chapters have been about Shikamaru orchestrating a plan to defeat both Hidan and Kakuzu, and he defeated Hidan whether you say so or not. Why you say? Because he trapped him above a pit and blows him up (at the end of 338). I think by any definition that is a defeat.

As far as his jutsu being useless, he defeated an S-rank ninja solely by relying upon its power. I think that's another good definition of "useful" as in "very effective, of use." Yondaime himself had about four recognizably original jutsus, and Shikamaru has two. So, Shikamaru isn't weak at all, relatively speaking.

mugen

January 28, 2007, 09:23 PM

you just saying that cuz he's your favorite character :noworry
really has he won a fight before?
answer me.
and as disappointing as Naruto has been .
I doubt that will be the end for Hidan.
and really if it was not for Kakashi going with them, team 10 would have died easily.
Kakashi was basically doing all the work and protecting team 10's ass at the same time :noworry
the only thing shikamari did was separate Hidan and we still have to wait this week to see if Hidan really dies.

jimm120

January 28, 2007, 09:53 PM

ok, I have only read the first page and a half.

First things first: Yes, the manga has gone "down hill". This is mostly do to the fact that we were deceived with Naruto (the character). After 2.5 years, we all expected a good increase in knowledge, power, techniques, etc.

What did we get? We got an out of control naruto turning all tailed WAY too many times. But as someone pointed out, Jaryia must have focused on the nine-tails. He believed the nine-tails was Narutos biggest trump card and greatest source of power. So he developed it. How many times had Naruto turned Kyubi before? A lot. During the Final Sasuke-Naruto fight was when he was finally able to develop a manifestation of 1 tail. Jaryia most probably focused on Naruto extracting more tails AND using that power (the speed, power, forms, etc). Obviously, after Naruto got to 4 tails....he ended up realising that he might have been wrong. But by then it was most probably too late (as in they had already spent 2.3 years or so).

I just think that most people that like Naruto have been dissappointed that he is still the underdog. YES, we all understand that the story is all about him coming back from being an underdog BUT he should have progressed more. All we have seen is mostly him not being able to control his temper and going bonkers. NO strategy at all. Naruto should have been much more polished after this time skip. I think that was what Kishi wanted to show with the 2nd bell test...BUT Naruto has not been able to do any of that impressive stuff outside those "controlled" environments. yeah, maybe part of the reason is that ALL of the external fights have been with Akatsuki or Orochimaru........but he should have been able to "own" Sai a bit or at least own Sasuke a bit.

Also...Sai...what a horrible character at the moment. Introduced and he is supposed to be a a jounin level (low level) and he is supposed to be dark and mysterious yet...Kishi ran out of gas with him. Right now, Kishi has him as if we have known him for a long time. We do not know ANYTHING of his abilities nor fighting knowledge. We have seen him thorw some paintings of some lions and a bird....but that is it. We want to know.

Also, a reason why people think that after the Oro fight Naruto (the manga) has been going is: At that fight...we still thought Naruto had advanced WAY more then he was letting on. He ended up not having it...as evidenced by this part, in which he had to learn about the chakra natures and also by how "dumb" he has been.

Another disappointing aspect has been the recent fights. This is AKATSUKI! This is Asuma! That fight was horrible. I LIKED that the guy (not hidan....) was immortal and all but damn, I expected a bit more out of Asuma and his team. I expected more from Hidan and the other guy also. During this fight...Ihave also expected more. They are supposed to be all powerful.

As for the AKATSUKI goal: I think it is ok. It is not necessarily money. It is more like control. ALL the villages will have to look to them for "protection". And if everyone has to look to them for everthing, they have leverage and can control. What else will an evil group of people like these want? Did you all think that every member was like Itachi, self-loathing and dead inside with no (appearent) cares in world? We see in Hidan and the other guy that they DO care about other things...so obviously they ARE doing this for certain reasons that will benefit them (not just take over the world and kill everyone).

Toad Sage

January 28, 2007, 10:24 PM

I did answer you, if you read my post. Shikamaru is not my favorite character(there are lots of colorful pictures of Jiraiya on my account here, if you want a hint as to who my favorite character is), either, but even if he was, it doesn't change the fact that objectively speaking he defeated Hidan. I don't know how else I can respond if Shikamaru totally immobilizing Hidan, an Akatsuki member, alone, doesn't convince you he's ever defeated an opponent in battle. For God's sake, even Hidan agrees with me! He says himself, "you got me."

Further, why do "we" have to wait to see if Hidan dies? Maybe you do, but in the manga I read it is clear Hidan is immortal and has been buried alive. He is alive (there is a picture of this), he is buried underneath several tons of Earth (there is a picture of this) and won't be going anywhere soon given the condition he was left it (this is my interpretation of what would happen when someone with no legs, arms, or torso is buried under thousands of pounds of dirt, so you could debate that since there isn't a picture of him not going anywhere.) Again, given that Shikamaru left him in this condition-in an enchanted forest that can prevent his escape (there is a picture of Shikamaru saying this), so he won't be returning to aid Kakuzu-I would count this as a victory for Shikamaru.

Anyway, this is totally off topic now.

gao_dargon

January 28, 2007, 10:33 PM

and his jutsu is so useless if he ends up fighting alone

mugen im not against you and in fact u usualy have the same poin of view as i do, i dont like shikamaru neather(sp¿?) but i do have to say that his jutsu is not useless as he can choke u with a shadow hand when he binds u

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki

January 29, 2007, 09:12 AM

Yes the manga is definitely going downhill. Chapter 339 was a prime example. Hidan vs Shikamaru has been the worst handled battle in the whole series.

It was a complete unecessary walkover. Now i hope Kishimoto will handled the remaining akatsuki battles with atleast a small degree of finesse.

jumbohiggins

January 31, 2007, 08:53 PM

they hit a slump there sure but i think that was cuase they want the next couple of episodes to be really good i mean naruto FINNALLY
gets a new jutsu it should get good again soon

and maybe even an episode in color :shock

Raine_Joybringer

February 01, 2007, 06:48 AM

With Naruto developing and trying hard to grow up, I think we'll be seeing a couple good points coming our way. If the way Shikamaru's character was handled is any indication, Kishimoto's sense of character development is becoming really top-notch.

Egoboo

February 01, 2007, 07:18 AM

sakura_uchiha

February 01, 2007, 07:56 AM

Yup the manga seems to be a bit of a downhill and i don't know if i can still hold on to it since it was my fave pastime...
POV:
I thought Akatsuki would have another reason why they want the jinchuurikis but i just can't believe they are like same old take-over-the-world villains.Shikamaru was acting bad-ass on smoking, i hated that part T_T.I hate hearing kage bunshin and rasengan over and over again.

Kusachu

February 01, 2007, 01:13 PM

Boo on the haters. Naruto is just as good as it has always been. So many talk bad about it, but i bet they still anticipate that new chapter every week.

dimska

February 01, 2007, 01:29 PM

Boo on the haters. Naruto is just as good as it has always been. So many talk bad about it, but i bet they still anticipate that new chapter every week.

I have to agree with that. I don't think that Naruto has really gotten downhill, it's just that almost all of us started naruto by reading 200+ chapters non-stop in less than 3 days before waiting anxiously for a week for a single chapter.
I guess we should just forget about Naruto for a month at a time, rediscover it by reading four chapters or so and then moving on to something else again.
17 pages just isn't enough to feel fulfilled everytime but if you read any five chapters on a row (even recent ones!), the thrill still is there.

mugen

February 01, 2007, 04:42 PM

Boo on the haters. Naruto is just as good as it has always been. So many talk bad about it, but i bet they still anticipate that new chapter every week.

booo!!!!!!
to you cuz you know it's been some crap and you don't admit it :noworry
i mean wtf...
anyways i don't really look with anticipation to Naruto

Kusachu

February 02, 2007, 12:58 AM

booo!!!!!!
to you cuz you know it's been some crap and you don't admit it :noworry
i mean wtf...
anyways i don't really look with anticipation to Naruto

I cant say there was a chapter i didn't like. I love the way the story is going. Sure it gets frustrating, but it isn't going down hill at all i don't think, and i sure as hell can't wait to see it animated. XD

KaiserRyuujin

February 02, 2007, 01:25 AM

Ha ha ha ha, this is quite the amusing thread. Ha ha ha haaaaaaa...yeeaaah. Thanks for the chuckle, but for it to be on topic whatever, I don't believe it is going downhill and some people are just looking for the "SuperMan" complex in their main character and some probably wouldn't be happy with which ever way it could be going. Anyway, have fun everyone :D

cielorossas

February 07, 2007, 08:02 PM

let's just enjoy the manga. it's for reading right?

if you don't like it anymore then stop reading it. it's that simple.

peace. :)

to be on topic. i would like to say that naruto is not going downhill but is porbably just building up some momentum in order to not be anti-climatic in the naruto vs. sasuke fight.

Toad Sage

February 07, 2007, 10:01 PM

You know, it isn't "that simple." I rarely speak out against posts, but since your post both disagrees with the thread topic and my personal philosophical position, I feel I should speak up. I am tired of this "if you don't like every single bit then stop reading" mentality. Not everything in the story is perfect, nor is it above criticism. People expressing their concern is just as valuable in a discussion as when they express their admiration. Personally, I think criticism is even more valuable, as it provokes insight into the story's working if done correctly, whereas praise can pretty much be left alone. Yet, regardless of one's position, one is entitled to express one's opinion and the awkwardness some people (strangely I think) feel when another recognizes a flaw in a thing they like should never be a limiting factor in this regard.

mugen

February 07, 2007, 10:04 PM

yeah you are right so what do you think of the new jutsu...
i thought it could have been "better"
i mean to Dragon Ball fans it looks like a rip off :noworry

The Boff

February 08, 2007, 12:24 PM

i just cant understand why naruto felt a need to develop one of the most kick ass jutsus thats ever existed in that world. in fact i cant even understand why yondy felt a need to make it better.

i mean the rasengan is a point blank sure kill jutsu against almost all ninjas. i hope you all agree with me when i say that akatsuki members and kabuto are NOT ordinary ninjas. they are all VERY weird in their own way.

the wind rasengan is the exact same thing, a point blank sure kill jutsu. it just makes more devestation. is that a sign of power? in my opinion no. but if naruto could try to use his new found element in more than one jutsu and maybe create entirely new ones instead. then to me atleast the manga would pick up again.

and i mean the thing with using his clones as a distractment thats not new, he did that in his fight against neji in the chuunin exams. so im not seeing progress im seeing repetition. and thats one reason to why i feel that the story has been a bit disapointing the last months.

i still read naruto, cause ive read it until now and i want to see how it ends.

Rokudaime Hokage

February 08, 2007, 02:01 PM

The Rasen Shuriken is to kill the Kyuubi lol
If Yondi had mixed the Rasengan with his element, he wouldn't have had (tense ?) to use the sealing method.
He would put a Element-Rasengan on Kyuubi's head and boom! Kyuubi = dead...

Na we'll see how things will develop, I feel the need for a more tragic story... more deaths (Hinata,Ino,Choji,Shino,etc maybe? please?)
And the manga does certainly not have the ninja feeling anymore (imo), the fights are too long, not deadly enough, there is always time for backup to arrive, too much of the "I explain to my enemy which super super secret jutsu I used and how I planned to get him in my trap" talk...

Anyway those who don't have any high expectations of Kishimoto or those who like how the manga is developing, please don't tell me to just not read the manga...
I've been reading it for years now and I certainly won't stop even if Naruto marries Sasuke in the end and they will keep the good reborn Kyuubi as their pet...

The Boff

February 08, 2007, 02:44 PM

I've been reading it for years now and I certainly won't stop even if Naruto marries Sasuke in the end and they will keep the good reborn Kyuubi as their pet...

a good point and i certainly hope that it wont be the case but as you said, i would read that too.

another thing thats been bugging me that i was REALLY hoping for. when kakuzu said that he had fought shodaime and then Yamato arrives AND throws a mokuton jutsu at him... come on kishi! perfect opportunity for a flashback to the fight with shodai! ofcourse its possible but very unlikely that it will come in the next or something chapter. but that was a perfect opportunity.

in fact i cant see any real reason at all from a storytelling point of view why kishi put that comment in. i mean why mention something as breathtaking as that if it wont matter?

and im guessing that a lot of us narutonuts would have loved too see that fight.
kakuzu vs shodaime. just imagine how awesome that could be....

weixiaobao

February 11, 2007, 12:15 AM

wow this thread is still living ... LOL

This was started like 3 months ago... like couple of volumes back so... the opions then and now is change...

so no boo to hater... and no boo to lover...

just simply misunderstood....

deathshadow25

February 11, 2007, 12:51 AM

a good point and i certainly hope that it wont be the case but as you said, i would read that too.

another thing thats been bugging me that i was REALLY hoping for. when kakuzu said that he had fought shodaime and then Yamato arrives AND throws a mokuton jutsu at him... come on kishi! perfect opportunity for a flashback to the fight with shodai! ofcourse its possible but very unlikely that it will come in the next or something chapter. but that was a perfect opportunity.

in fact i cant see any real reason at all from a storytelling point of view why kishi put that comment in. i mean why mention something as breathtaking as that if it wont matter?

and im guessing that a lot of us narutonuts would have loved too see that fight.
kakuzu vs shodaime. just imagine how awesome that could be....

OMG I said the exact same thing but then I guess I we will never see that fight until they have some kind of backstory or something or other.

BRIONICMAN

February 11, 2007, 04:52 PM

the recent arc was pretty interesting but Kishimoto is dragging the story, especially if part 2 is gonna be as long as part 1

enlightened monkey

February 11, 2007, 08:00 PM

Is the Naruto manga going downhill? Well, it all depends on how one looks at it. If we're talking about the development of the main character as a vice in the story (which a story about an doorknob kid who becomes the greatest kage in all history can be), yes, the story's gone a bit downhill with a rediculously long fight between Sakura, someone we really don't care about, fighting some Akatsuki member for whatever reason......and the Akatsuki member, who could have ended up fully killing both Sakura and Chiyo on a whim, ends up letting himself die by his parent's hands. What really got me, though, was when Sakura was then referred to as "one of the Akatsuki killers". Remembering that she would have been dead in the first attack Sasori did if Chiyo hadn't been there. Along with antidotes. And, oh yeah, Chiyo to cover her ass time and time and more times again.

So for a while, the manga was just one of these: -______-

Yay. Puppets are deadly. Yay. Sakura's boner for Sasuke inspired her to use an exploding note to get out of a trap Sasori put her in. I'm so happy for her. *lifts wine glass*

Anyways, moving on, we go to Naruto's emotions getting in the way of everything. This, on Kishi's part, was an excellent development as we began to see the fruits of two years of intense training and no success on the Sasuke retrieval part to back it up. Most people wanted to see Naruto with dozens of new super jutsus and instead saw and mostly overlooked Naruto's development in the basics, and beyond. Those included a lot of things that were never seen......except to those who saw beyond the flash of the chidori and the "ZOMG"'dness of the MS. Points of Naruto's growth included:

- outmaneuvering Kakashi with a bunshin. It was Kakashi's bunshin he outmaneuvered but as a taijutsu-equal version of the original, he did rather well. And we saw it again with Kakuzu quite recently.

- genjutsu cancelling against Itachi. Yes, it was a finger genjutsu. And yes, Itachi is fully capable of defeating Kurenai, a genjutsu master and specialist, at her own game. Get real, people. Did you expect Naruto to just dispell it then, just like that? Or did you want Itachi to boast about the power so we could put our heads down in peace knowing that he'd used a super-genjutsu and that Naruto not being able to counter it was okay? Grow up, kids.

- flips. You notice that Naruto's using more of those? He flipped from a roof onto a railing, a rather thin one, when talking to Tsunade. Those weren't very common back in the day, and yet we're seeing them all the time when he fights now. I believe a bunshin of his did it against Kakuzu as well, and the same can be said against Yamato's wood trap.

- Naruto's cunning and battle intel has improved quite a lot. When sparring Yamato, he made sure to use his clone to attack Yamato and take the wood trap while he then surpassed it as the original to take Yamato. His emotions, however, lost him the day and Sai ended up trapping him, like someone from your own team tackling you to score a goal. Not Naruto's fault.

- He no longer wastes tons of bunshins on this and that, something probably learned on Jiraiya's incentive. The less clones, the more chakra -- especially for a jinchuuriki. When Chiyo attacked Kakashi, instantaneous reaction stopped her attack while Naruto's second clone and himself were perfectly placed to keep her at bay. When he battled Deidara, he had maneuvers worthy of Lee's taijutsu strength -- someone falling down with a knee onto you from 20 feet can do quite some damage. Emotions ran wild, unfortunately.

- As a jinchuuriki, which is what he is, (like Gaara did to fight and be revered within the Sand as a living, ultimate weapon), he grew to the 4-tailed stage. An almost godly beast capable of whipping up fear in Orochimaru -- and almost defeating that same person (unless someone would like to try convincing me on how Oro could defeat the 4-tails. Go ahead. Try me. And summoning people? Sure, that'd work. I'm talking 1 on 1, though, so please don't try that card on me). Why not? We were all like ZOMG GAARA CAN CONTROL THIS INSANE BEAST....uhh no he couldn't. He was sleeping when Shukaku came out and in part-form, while he was awake, we can compare him to Naruto's 3-tails. Development in an evil and damaging way, but development nonetheless.

- Cunning. Sai himself was quite surprised when Naruto attacked Kabuto from atop the wall. |Yup. Look again if you missed it. Kabuto has something special, that we cannot deny. Otherwise?

- Naruto dodges attacks just like any other chuunin (with Sai vs. Oro's snake hands, with his team vs. Kabuto's kunai hail, etc.)......his speed is likewise the same. Sai's remark on his lack of a dick? You try striking in the same position Naruto was in. You'll find your strength hard to come by.

- Naruto uses actual taijutsu now. Yup. You see him sparring Yamato? Until Yamato saw Naruto using the rasengan in Sai's form, he was convinced he was fighting the prodigy ROOT child and Naruto. Hmm.

- rasengan with one hand? I'm not so sure on this, although I'm quite convinced he can do so now after the bunshin training. Good enough for me.

- and now, we have Naruto having fully and fairly defeating an Akatsuki member. The manga has always been sound, and is getting good. If you have debates on my claim just now (Naruto fully beating Kakuzu), read my post here: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=14238.375 -- and take it up with me there.

You see, we all wanted Naruto to have some insane jutsus and such. So did I. Instead, Kishi realistically had Jiraiya work with Naruto on the finer elements of the basics that, I'm sorry, but Naruto DESPERATELY needed. Speed (I know he's not a god even now but he's chuunin level and four or five of him spells trouble), chakra control, bunshin control, thinking, awareness. Things ninja need. Has the manga been going downhill? Well, to those who can't see some of the finer things and bone for flash....yeah. I guess it has, in ways. But for those who can actually see past all that, and realize what Naruto's made up for in the two-year training sesh and now much recently, it can be understood that others get their time to shine while Naruto now gets a complete atom bomb given to him. He deserves it.

As for this whole "standing around while things are explained".....baka to anybody who cries about it. It's been there since the beginning, middle, recent times, and is in tons of excellent manga. Live with it.

As for Sakura and Shikimaru being the first Akatsuki killers....Sakura, no. NO. Shikimaru....yea I guess a complete genius beating Akatsuki's dumbest and weakest member while having had the time to fully prepare for it after observation and preparing a field of exploding notes deserves the title. Hmm.

Naruto's an Akatsuki killer. The manga's getting hot.

deathshadow25

February 11, 2007, 08:30 PM

lol I love rading rants on the Forums it makes me rreel with laughter

I do agree with alot of the points that the person above has made all except one

The Sakura disrespect, You obviously have something against her which would leave you biased but hey thats your problem. I just don't see anything she could do to you after all she lives in an alternate universe.

but Naruto is getting hott and I personally don't think so. You can call me blind, but I think there are manga out there that bore you to bits before they get to the juicy parts.

Anyway Naruto deserves a little downtime for plot development ( making a plan to kill thoseakatsuki suckers !!)

enlightened monkey

February 11, 2007, 08:42 PM

Wait, wait, wait.....before I'm knocked for disrespecting Sakura, I'm going to make my point nice and clear, leaving it at that.

She would have been killed within the first few seconds of battle vs. Sasori. Secondly, she would have been killed if she didn't have an antidote. Third of all, she didn't kill Sasori. A lot of the important parts of the fight were spent as Chiyo's puppet...on her own? Gosh. And even then, it was CHIYO who in the end landed the final blow on Sasori, a blow that could have been dodged if Sasori hadn't decided that he needed to be killed by those he'd killed in the first place, for whatever reason he had (dying in your dead puppet parent's arms is always good). CHIYO is the Akatsuki killer, and that's all I'm saying. The only disrespect I have for Sakura is to strip her of that title and give it to the rightful and deserving owner. Otherwise? She's a chuunin with super strength and formidable medical skills. No disrespect there whatsoever.

Anyways, "down time" in the manga usually points to development in it's own way -- explanations on how to create wind chakra, and even in-depth look at training and how boring it can truly be, in the case of Naruto's wind development. It's all about how you look at it -- down time, or time to see other aspects of the manga outside of battles and glory, intuitive thought-out-battles and whatnot.

And besides -- either way, I think we can safely say that the manga's now starting it's climb up the hill.[br]Posted on: February 11, 2007, 09:39:36 PM_________________________________________________Oh wait, I actually said Sakura was someone we didn't truly care about....I formally, therefore, apologize to those who care about her. I just don't find her much use beyond having a shallow crush on Sasuke throughout part 1 and having an ultimately small helping hand in killing Sasori (although saving Kankurou's life is to be commended).

Again, apologies to Sakura fans. I actually mean it.

MangaCow

February 11, 2007, 08:42 PM

I agree with a lot thats been said by enlightened monkey, Naruto has improved a great deal and now in my opinion he is a powerful figure even when the elite Akatsuki are invovled. When Kakashi enters a battle enemies go: "Holy crap its kakashi" and fight like they mean it and allies go: "Sweet, solid ninja support for me" and know they have a decent ninja on thier side.

Naruto used to be more of a useless brat or unpredictable concern on a battlefield but after his training you find him welcomed by allies and feared by enemies, when he enters the fight against Kakuzu you can see that he's entered as a real player and Kakuzu knows it.

The only thing that bugs me is the new jutsu, mainly beacuse its totally pointless unless it leads to something else. Naruto already had the rasengan, his super powerful one-shot-kill power jutsu, he spends all this time and training and what does he get? ANOTHER rasengan that works in EXACTLY the same way but just does more damage. Great.

If he'd never made it up at all and just put more chakra into the normal one it coulda worked exactly the same.

Just think of all the cool jutsus that Naruto could have had...

I'm for making Naruto a great, balanced ninja and not just a Rasengan delivery system. (RDS for short ;))

However, the manga is still damn good. I've been happy with all the recent arcs, a little niggled at how much better sasuke was than naruto (So much faster and more skilled it doesnt matter how big Naturo's balls (rasengans) are, he's never gonna hit him) its been cool. Asuma's death was a big suprise, but Shikamaru is shaping up to be a nice character. (Now HE has some nice jutsu, and really tactical too, befitting of his character. (grabbing all those explosive notes with his shadow is genius))

enlightened monkey

February 11, 2007, 08:47 PM

Hmm, we need to have a discussion on if Sasuke's truly so much godlyishly more powerful than Naruto, because I'm happy to debate that. Sasuke is stronger individually, yes, and much faster. Clones can help take care of that, however.

Anyways, mangacow, I agree. Naruto needs to do a little more than be a rasengan delivery system. He can summon weapons, frogs....I mean, Kakashi's done little more than be a chidori delivery system but then again, the other stuff he's done usually ends up full of flash and kicking ass. Naruto, although he has a truly powerful fighting style and ability, needs to start going past that. And perhaps, now that as you've said mangacow, he's seen and is a real player, we'll start seeing more of that.

deathshadow25

February 11, 2007, 08:52 PM

zomg I totally didn't get it the first time so thanks for explaining that :D

well but yes I guess it's safe to say that Naruto can only get more interesting from this point on

still there should be a little credit given to Sakura towards the end she was reading Sasori's moves and dodgong them with ease. Another thing Sasori even complimented her medical skills and her ability to read his hand movements so she'd know what he was planning on doing with the puppets, it was in his head but it was still a compliment.

I also agreee with MangaCow on the point of shikamaru. We all knew he was a genius but to be smart enough to take out an akatsuki member now thats good, even though he wasn't as smart as Kakazu, then again Kakazu has over 100 years of experience. Also a ninja with over 1 hundred years of experience was defeated by Naruto now thats gotta say something

enlightened monkey

February 11, 2007, 09:06 PM

Shikimaru's defeat of Hidan is commendable, although.....I don't know, but something about killing the guy you've had a chance to analyze in a field of explosive notes that you prepared on a clan's geographically advantageous ancestral grounds.....I dunno, things were REALLY stacked for him. Uhh......I dunno, I just don't like the whole thing of how Shika "took down an Akatsuki member"....yeah he did, but Hidan was the weakest, stupidest member I could have ever imagined....a 1-trick pony, basically, chosen for the group thanks to his amazing ability and it's affinity for bijuu incapitation and capture.

ANyways, NARUTO IS UP THE HILL!!!! YAY!!!

Marq

February 11, 2007, 09:12 PM

Responding toward the title:.. No.. Naruto isn't really going downhill. Sure it doesn't have that "essence" of part one's magic. Part one was more for characters learning and growing. (sure, not everyone got a major role but it was still emphasized) Part 2 is basically the wrap-up. The story itself is set. Part 2 is now focused on the Akatsuki and Orochimaru,(yeah I know, he was only shown for one arc, but ya know he's pretty much in the core of the story) so it can be seen why there isn't much story progression. All mangas have their ups and down, but that's what makes it enjoyable.

UzumakiRoman

February 14, 2007, 08:27 AM

venicia777

February 14, 2007, 09:54 AM

i just think that kishi can't hit important points that we want to see in succession in a more timely manner. i mean the way some of the chapters go it's like he's really writing it week to week instead of have a long storyline planned out.

yeah-- case in point is what people point to- the way Naruto pawned Kakuzu (and a little less Shikamaru pawning Hidan).

Many argue he did the way he did it just to prove the point-- Naruto/shikamaru defeated Akatsuki whether you like it or not. it is always going to be like that in the manga whatever the reasons any one gives of how sucky those moments are (including me at times)

Rokudaime Hokage

February 14, 2007, 11:18 AM

@UzumakiRoman
Yeah thats what it feels like

Its not like you see a great plan behind the chapters or even the story...
The inconsequence regarding the jutsus, chakra stuff and power level of the characters shows it imo...
Kishimoto even changed some Akatsuki members before they were introduced...

we have 3 important plots:

1.) There is the Sasuke and Itachi thing... I don't think Kishimoto has the slightest clue on how to turn this out

2.) We have the Akatsuki org... some members were already killed... its definitely going somewhere, but does Kishi know where ? I think he is not to sure about it...

3.) Naruto becoming Hokage... yeah that'll happen...

kadoman

February 14, 2007, 12:32 PM

Its not like you see a great plan behind the chapters or even the story...

Well, I've been the first to admit that I haven't been happy with the direction the manga has taken Post Time-Skip but I gotta jump to Kishi's defense here.

Just because we can't see a grand plan doesn't mean that there isn't one. I mean, let's face it, if we could see it, what would be the point of our reading the manga if it's that predictable? Part of the excitement of Naruto is not knowing how things are going to pan out and also, knowing that with Kishi, just about anything is possible. It's not really fair to think that we even have the know-how and insight to be able to 'see' what Kishi has worked out over perhaps, years.

1.) There is the Sasuke and Itachi thing... I don't think Kishimoto has the slightest clue on how to turn this out

You might be right. I certainly wouldn't disagree that he has way too many threads he doesn't know what to do with (he admits as much in one of his interviews). However, I do believe the Sasuke/Itachi thing already has a resolution and that Kishi's problem is actually getting to the resolution via the gazillion pathways he has gone and built along the way. That's the problem, I think.

2.) We have the Akatsuki org... some members were already killed... its definitely going somewhere, but does Kishi know where ? I think he is not to sure about it...

This is more along my way of thinking. I think he has been making continual changes to the original game plan where Akatsuki are concerned, but I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing - all authors make changes to their stories along the way, no matter how stringently they have planned, or mapped out the story beforehand.

I do think that there have been times where it's been obvious that Kishi either hasn't known what the heck to do next, or the powers-that-be have made him stall and delay, and string things out for whatever reason. But I don't think these reasons alone signal the downfall (or the down hill!) of the manga. I think it's more complicated than that.

Anyway, I still maintain that the manga will not pick up pace until Sasuke returns.

Toad Sage

February 14, 2007, 12:46 PM

No great plan? I thought the great plan was fairly obvious! He had his intro arc, the encounter with Sasuke arc, the regroup arc, and I predict the Save Sasuke arc to end with destroy Akatsuki Arc. The whole point of chapter 329 was to establish the scope of their ambitions so we know that Naruto is going to need more help to take them down. And, lo and behold, he's in the process of trying to save the one ninja hardcore enough to help him in that regard. If anything stinks about Naruto I think it's its predictable quality.

I have to add I'm a little disappointed to see some people complaining about 341, because a lot of the posts I'm reading are by the same people that wanted a "one punch, total domination" style of victory for Naruto. Well, we got that and now everyone is saying it sucked! lol, you can't win.

I think the story is heading quickly back uphill now that we've seen an unequivocal victory in Naruto's favor. We're through the damn awful training/regrouping arc and I think what's in store for the series' future shall be very rewarding-especially if you're a fan of Naruto. By this I mean have realistic expectations for its quality. Complaining about both the inclusion and absence of the same idea is just plain unfair, by any standard.

The Boff

February 14, 2007, 12:47 PM

Anyway, I still maintain that the manga will not pick up pace until Sasuke returns.

hehehe, spoken like a true uchiha fan :nuts

kadoman

February 14, 2007, 12:55 PM

hehehe, spoken like a true uchiha fan :nuts

Haha! I knew people would think I would be biased! I'm really not! Honestly! Obviously, I am a huge Sasuke fan, but even if I wasn't I still think that the relationship between Naruto and Sasuke is what drew the crowds to the manga and is what kept them interested and the absence of that relationship is what has made the manga go slightly off-track.

Look at the huge amount of interest generated when Sasuke came back. It still think it was all too little too late, and not just because I want to see more of Sasuke.

Naruto the manga absolutely sparks when those two are together, whether it be fighting each other, or fighting together, or whatever. No amount of Akatsuki action can make up for years of building a solid foundation of friendship (and to a certain extent, I include Sakura in this). That interaction has been missing for too long.

Toad Sage

February 14, 2007, 01:38 PM

We've seen eye to eye on this for a while, Kadoman. I don't think you want Sasuke back just because you're a fan, it's because you understand the fact that their relationship is the lynch pin of the series, from a storytelling perspective. The story only "works" when both of them are involved, as hopefully this last arc demonstrates :P Anyway, for those of you interested I believe Kado outlines why Sasuke is so important to the series very well a few pages back in this thread :)

Anyway, I think opinions in this thread are going to change once these two return to the spotlight-or at least Naruto-in the coming issues. I for one can't wait for the days of reading a Naruto chapter with Naruto or Sasuke actually in it. These last few months have been harsh, but thankfully they're over (no offense to Shikamaru, it's just not his book).

weixiaobao

February 14, 2007, 08:53 PM

(no offense to Shikamaru, it's just not his book).

Good points.... LOL..
And i thought Naruto manga about a manga about Naruto failing and trying and failing and more trying to become the hokage, kick sasuke's ass, and win sakura over...

starfall856

February 23, 2007, 02:20 PM

Naruto is a little repetitive but its still awesome!!

mugen

February 23, 2007, 04:16 PM

Naruto is a little repetitive but its still awesome!!

uuum....
sometimes but yeah anyways it's gone up a bit :p
a little.....

enlightened monkey

February 24, 2007, 01:30 AM

Naruto needs a little more fighting time. Other than that, yeah, it's stayed relatively the same.

juUnior

February 24, 2007, 10:37 AM

Naruto is a little repetitive but its still awesome!!

Agreed :D And furthermore, I think the last 4 chapters were for me one of those which I feel really like reading goodie chapters from Naruto xD

Rhan

February 24, 2007, 12:29 PM

I don't like Akatsuki. So far, they are all freaks with the exception of Itachi. I would like to see more ninja fights and less freak show.
Naruto started going downhill during the Sasuke retrieval Gaara. (the Sound 5 with the CS activated were just plain ridiculous (T-Rex Kimmimaro, come on ... And I don't want to see Sasuke star nose ever again).
So far, post Timeskip, Gaara vs Deidara is the only fight which has been close of Gaara vs Lee, Gaara vs Naruto, Sasuke vs Naruto or the first encounter with Zabuza. Sasori took way too much time to die, Hidan is lame as it can be and Kazuzu was uber god until he lost in one page.
Emotionwise, Asuma's death don't even compare with Haku's (a villain ! a _human_ villain, do you remember what is it Kishi ?), and I am not even talking about the Third.

kadoman

February 25, 2007, 04:58 AM

Rhan, as much as I don't want to agree with you about Akatsuki, actually, I do.

I couldn't pinpoint before why I was losing interest in them as a criminal organization, when I was so fascinated earlier - but you hit the nail on the head for me. They have become something of a circus act with Hidan and Kakuzu being, in the end, too ridiculous for my tastes.

I had very little time for the last quarter of the last arc. I was so bored by it. And it seemed to me that there was less emphasis on the way of ninja and more on seeing which character was going to get the trophy for being Stupidly Grotesque. Thank God for Shikamaru.

Meanwhile, I continue to be bothered by Kishi's new handling of Kakashi - he seems to be fading in importance and stature. I wonder if this is deliberate on Kishi's part...are we meant to see this gradual decline? Perhaps the reasons will reveal themselves towards the end of the manga?

But I have faith that with this new arc, Kishi will return to form and go back to the original drawcard of the series and what made it so darn addictive in the first place, for me anyway - the conflict between Naruto and Sasuke with Oro as the shifty villain.

Toad Sage

February 25, 2007, 09:48 AM

I find it interesting to hear you say Kakashi's status seems to be in decline, Kadoman, for I have noticed the same thing. I was unhappy with it myself until Kakashi's monolouge explained what is happening: Naruto's generation is stepping up to take the lead. If you notice, it wasn't just Kakashi in the last arc who seems to be waning, but also Kurenai and of course, Asuma. So, by the end of the arc, I was contented by knowledge that Naruto's generation of ninja truly are coming into their own. Of course I also "miss" the days of Kakashi being more influential and parent-like, but I think the mere fact I miss that at all underlines how effectively Kishimoto was able to convey the growth of the student generation.

kadoman

February 25, 2007, 10:08 AM

I hear you TS, but the problem I have with this concept of the new generation coming into their own, is that they are still so young and inexperienced to be making the older generation (who have more life experience - which counts for so much more than brute strength) look less important than they were, and less influential.

They are still kids, after all, and did Asuma, Kakashi and Kurenai make their elders look as badly off when they were still mere teenagers?

I'm sure it will work out in the end, and I'll understand Kishi's methods in time, but just for now, I can't quite get my head around it.

Toad Sage

February 25, 2007, 10:37 AM

Well, I'd reply to that by saying that experience isn't as important as what is at stake: namely, the future of the village. There is a lot of talk on these boards about what makes a character more powerful than another, which I regard as mostly silly since Kishimoto tells us what determines a shinobi's strength [in Naruto]-namely, being tasked with the protection of something precious. So, to me, it's natural at this point in the story that Naruto's generation would begin taking over, as the future is now that precious thing for them.

This isn't just my interpretation either, I hope. For example, I'm convinced this is the reason Kishimoto included "the king" motiff. Kishi lavished Asuma's dying words with the above sentiment, so we have a member of the older generation literally dying away and leaving an impression of the importance of the youngest generation upon the next wave of protectors. It was like a "passing the torch" moment for me now that I can view the whole last arc in perspective. And in a story which is at its most fundamental level about the younger generation rising up to absorb the responsibilities of the older generation (i.e. the Naruto Hokage theme) this set of ideas rightfully belongs in the progression toward the moment in the story where Naruto's generation assumes control.

I hope that all made sense, heh. The summary is Naruto's cuisine must reign supreme.

kadoman

February 25, 2007, 11:13 AM

There is a lot of talk on these boards about what makes a character more powerful than another, which I regard as mostly silly since Kishimoto tells us what determines a shinobi's strength [in Naruto]-namely, being tasked with the protection of something precious.

...told me all I needed to know! Thanks TS, how could I have missed something so obvious? :amuse

Gold Knight

February 25, 2007, 11:20 AM

About the Akatsuki, I didn't really mind Hidan and Kakuzu. After seeing Deidara and Sasori and especially Zetsu, it became obvious the whole organization were made up of eccentric freakshows. As to be expected of any gang that used to have Orochimaru as a member.

I won't argue that the last arc didn't have its flaws though. It could have been written so much better. I agree that Shikamaru was the main show, and that's what saved it for me as well.

As for Kakashi, and the others, I think that the lifeline of any shinobi is actually very precarious. Despite Sandaime having lived so long, he was still an exception to the rule. If you think of shinobi in terms of athletes - and they are usually very superb athletes - in real life, most superstars do gradually go in their decline in their 30's. Kakashi, and most of the jounin that we know about, are now in their thirties.

I think that is why Kishimoto has chosen to move ahead and make the former rookies of Naruto's class that much more prominent in their society, and I'm sure that it was that way when Kakashi was younger as well. As Kakashi said himself, the cycle of life is something nobody can really stop - despite all the villains hungry for immortality in the story.

That Kakashi is recognizing that he needs to step aside and let the new generation grow into leadership roles strikes me as being incredibly responsible. He's not going to stop doing his part either - and he's still as formidable as any shinobi that most people will ever encounter. You have to come up with insanely powerful foes like Itachi and Kakuzu to even slow him down. But the series isn't named "Kakashi" (as much as I would like it to be) and so...

kadoman

February 25, 2007, 11:30 AM

As to be expected of any gang that used to have Orochimaru as a member.

I actually laughed out loud at that! But true, GK...so true. How did I miss THAT extremely valid point?

As for Kakashi, and the others, I think that the lifeline of any shinobi is actually very precarious.

Yes, another good point. I did wonder about that afterwards.

As Kakashi said himself, the cycle of life is something nobody can really stop - despite all the villains hungry for immortality in the story.

Excellent point. This is what I love about Naruto.

Toad Sage

February 25, 2007, 11:48 AM

You know, that's an interesting way of looking at the immortality aspect of the major villains that I hadn't considered myself. It provides a sharp contrast to what GK very eloquently said about Kakashi (that is, Kakashi acknowledging his responsibility for the entire village by allowing the younger generation to step into its leadership role). Selfishly clinging to life and interrupting the progress of generations seems to be the way Kishimoto characterizes his villains, which makes sense in light of the theme of Naruto (again, the Hokage bit).

I absolutely agree that the last arc had some major problems, but the more I think about it over these last few posts the reason for that may have been that Kishimoto was trying to pack a lot of deep themes into the arc and he had trouble expressing himself. I mean, if the last arc really was about the transition from older generation to the younger generation (the king riddle, the younger generation succeeding against foes the older generation couldn't handle, an older generation member dying, etc), then to me that's about the deepest the series has gone thematically heretofore. So, maybe I should be a little easier on Kishi, as I was very frusturated by elements of the past arc myself. Maybe I should try to understand that he's growing himself in this process, and that in a weird little way, the theme of the last fictional arc may reflect the theme of the last non-fictional arc, so to speak, for old Kishimoto :)

Gold Knight

February 25, 2007, 11:56 AM

Hah. Yeah, Kishimoto may be going through a midlife crisis right now for all we know, though isn't he one of the youngest mangakas in the business? XD

Even if Kishimoto had intended for the last arc to be focused about the transition from the older generation to the new generation, it's still a theme that was somewhat lost in translation, so to speak. As I said, it probably could have been written a little better. A few more quiet moments probably wouldn't have hurt to emphasize the point a little more keenly.

For example, Naruto learned a little bit about fuuton manipulation from Asuma. If Naruto becomes Hokage as he wants to be, then Asuma did his part in contributing to the next generation with his own knowledge. But somehow with all that was going on, I think most people have already forgotten about that. A little better writing could have made it seem a little more meaningful, somehow.

Though it's sometimes realistic how we experience moments that we believe at the time to be nothing significant and then later on we realize just how monumental they were.

kadoman

February 25, 2007, 12:01 PM

You know, that's an interesting way of looking at the immortality aspect of the major villains that I hadn't considered myself.

I know! Between you and GK, I'm feeling like I've been reading the last arc with blinkers on or something! How could I have not quite pin-pointed that? I ought to know better, really. :amuse

Just so I don't look completely blinkered, I'm quoting myself from earlier:

I'm sure it will work out in the end, and I'll understand Kishi's methods in time..

So I agree with you that being able to look back and put things into perspective is what gives Naruto even greater depth and meaning.

Naruto's villains -
Selfishly clinging to life and interrupting the progress of generations seems to be the way Kishimoto characterizes his villains

Can I just say how much I love this comment? Never thought of it like that before - want it on my wall. I mean, you could apply that 'selfishly clinging to life' logic to our modern life - how everyone is obsessed with appearing young, all the cosmetic surgery that goes on, the dieting and primping and preening...but that's a different topic - but it definitely relates and shows how in touch with wider themes Kishi really is.

I mean, if the last arc really was about the transition from older generation to the younger generation (the king riddle, the younger generation succeeding against foes the older generation couldn't handle, an older generation member dying, etc), then to me that's about the deepest the series has gone thematically heretofore. So, maybe I should be a little easier on Kishi, as I was very frusturated by elements of the past arc myself. Maybe I should try to understand that he's growing himself in this process, and that in a weird little way, the theme of the last fictional arc may reflect the theme of the last non-fictional arc, so to speak, for old Kishimoto :)

*sheds tears*

I've nothing left to say! That just sums up exactly how I feel word for word. And I agree that over these past few posts, I've actually changed my viewpoint and what you and GK have so eloquently said, has given me food for thought.

Wow, Rhan, look at what you started. :amuse

Kyros

February 26, 2007, 08:55 PM

I only read through the first pages in this thread, but I gotta say this; Naruto has been disappointing since the beginning of part 2. I still read it just because it's probably one of the most interesting things to read, but it's just sad how bad the story is being told.

I understand Naruto is suppose to be the underdog of the series, but how he's being portrayed is kind of ridiculous. From what we've seen from Naruto's performance he hasn't improved in much of anything. To be fair though, we haven't seen him fight or in a situation that doesn't seem against him, so I'm hoping his character will be redeemed later on.

Other things that have bugged me are things like Kakashi having the MS, Sakura and Chiyo's fight against Sasori, the character Hidan, and everything about him, including his fight against Shikamaru, Shikamaru's himself, and other side characters getting shafted.

Several other things.

End Rant.

kadoman

February 27, 2007, 07:43 AM

@ Kryos
For an extremely persuasive argument FOR Part 2 (because, like you, I was always against it) read this page: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=10817.165  starting at Rhan's post.  Keep reading till you get back to here.  If afterwards you're not utterly convinced that Part 2 is worthy I'll...I'll...change my avatar to Hinata!  Oh, God, what have I promised? :amuse

Kyros

February 27, 2007, 06:02 PM

@ Kryos
For an extremely persuasive argument FOR Part 2 (because, like you, I was always against it) read this page: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=10817.165 starting at Rhan's post. Keep reading till you get back to here. If afterwards you're not utterly convinced that Part 2 is worthy I'll...I'll...change my avatar to Hinata! Oh, God, what have I promised? :amuse

Well, that was an interesting (and grudgingly convincing) read, but I still believe it could have been told better in a much much MUCH better way :/

weixiaobao

February 27, 2007, 06:50 PM

Well, that was an interesting (and grudgingly convincing) read, but I still believe it could have been told better in a much much MUCH better way :/

ha ha ha does that meant kadoman gonna have a hinata's ava

@ Kryos
If afterwards you're not utterly convinced that Part 2 is worthy I'll...I'll...change my avatar to Hinata! Oh, God, what have I promised? :amuse

now that i think about it the akatsuki should be monter and super powerful since after they are the enemy of the whole world
but i think the naruto series going down because of them for the story doesn't give us too much background or information about them plus those trick they using (ex hidan and kazuku)

The whole rescue Gaara Arc was much better than Grass and Hidan's Arc... The newest Arc begin with the betray of Sasuke seem very interesting and maybe the story will pick up its pace soon.

The akasuki seemed less impressive after sasori's death and that may had affect some people's interest in this series.. for example Hidan is not too bright, and their master plan isn't that impressive, plus now that kakashi have the MS which lead to Itachi nolonger the only person with the MS. Only a chunnin with some information can capture an akatsuki (shikimaru), and another die bc of an old woman with the help of a chunnin (saruka) can kick the butt of a S-rank (or in a Kage level) ninja (sasori)..

But i guess this is the way to go if the story need to made any progess... give chance to naruto to become a hokage, I guess...

For those still ticking to Naruto (which all of you) latest chapters... I think the bad time is almost over and the story will be much better hopefully...

PS i have a feeling that Shikimaru will be the next hokage... just because Naruto will never meet the hokage standard in maturity level... X)

Raine_Joybringer

February 27, 2007, 11:56 PM

I know I've said it before, but even after all this time, I still do love the story. There's been a few things I haven't exactly liked (such as the Naruto training with Kakashi part, since it just had that feeling that nothing was completely thought through properly).

What I love most is the characterisation and character development. I've never seen such interesting characters, lest ones that you feel like you've grown up with as you read their stories.

The reason the Akatsuki take so long to die is because that's the way they've been planned. They're meant to be obstacles in the way to a greater achievement, but they're also meant to be stepping stones that help aid that greater achievement as well (so, realistically they're not meant to help, but story/character development-wise, they are).

ssjasper2003

February 28, 2007, 12:08 AM

cogknack

February 28, 2007, 06:26 PM

Foolproof way to tell when naruto is going downhill :noworry
http://content.ytmnd.com/content/5/1/4/514fa004d482e433782ef89331b9288e.png

yosemite

February 28, 2007, 06:42 PM

i think so, the manga has become a bit stagnant, and the past three chapters weren't that great, like at all

Eyefarted2

February 28, 2007, 08:02 PM

i agree. naruto is definetely getting a lil borign rigtht now. It used to be more interesting in Part 1.

ornis

March 01, 2007, 07:10 PM

Hey Kadoman, how 'bout that promise, eh? And Naruto does seem super, just super... it will get better because the next revelation always sparks an ensuing mystery. Unless someones's predictions are so good that... well... that person could tell the story.

theshizzle

March 01, 2007, 07:14 PM

Naruto is still great, you guys that think its boring or not up to par have high expectations, IMO

juUnior

March 02, 2007, 07:11 AM

So far, post Timeskip, Gaara vs Deidara is the only fight which has been close of Gaara vs Lee, Gaara vs Naruto, Sasuke vs Naruto or the first encounter with Zabuza.

Agreed :D That fight was one of such where someone can say good ol' climate of Naruto. And even how Deidara has some uber hands with mouth, his not so freak like others more-uber Akatsukis members. It was shinobi somewhat fight. I was hoping that that new scenes which are now in new chapters will be shinobi vs shinobi, but it looks it will be monster vs monster fights. But all in all i like "Naruto" title and will be reading it no matter what ;p

SacredNic

March 02, 2007, 07:23 AM

Meh, seems that some people are never satisfied. I think Naruto's getting better because of the character development and philosophy that's strewn in between the action. Hence one could see it as being 'matured' and well paced.

If it were all action action action with no progression in the story, people complain it's too much like DBZ.

As the saying goes: you don't like it, don't read it. :tem

Strat

March 05, 2007, 06:02 PM

Naruto is getting lame, and that's all cause the main character is an idiot, while sasuke knows tons of jutsus, kishimoto only gave naruto, what? five!? Come on, ppl say naruto is impressing cause he has kage bunshin timing...he already had that when he fought kiba at the chuunin exams....and besides what's up with kakashi saying naruto is stronger than him!!?? yeah right in his dreams....well, that's my oppinion

The Boff

March 05, 2007, 06:25 PM

i miss the days when jutsus were made by humans and they used handseals and shouted out the jutsu name.

but unfortunatly it seems that nowadays all we get is freaks with freakabilities.
cursed seal, deidaras hands, hidan, kakuzu.

i miss the good old days.

cogknack

March 05, 2007, 09:15 PM

Raine_Joybringer

March 05, 2007, 09:26 PM

Toad Sage

March 05, 2007, 10:07 PM

For what it is, I think act 2 can be justified, if you follow my meaning (or if I have one in that sentence). Anyway, overall, I feel that act 1 is superior to act 2 for a lot reasons. I think it's important to remember that the point of the freak show is to illustrate that Naruto is in a new league of warrior. I agree, after my above comments, that it was better earlier. I just feel it's important to note that these changes are motivated by the story, however unfortunate they are.

naruto188

March 07, 2007, 09:43 AM

i still think its as good as ever but that is just my opinion

Ryan Holer

March 07, 2007, 12:10 PM

I like a few others prefer the 1starc but honestly the stuff that has been happening has to happen to get to what were all waiting for namely naruto's pwnage of all others. Naruto has to go through stages where the enemies seem unreal and albeit freaky because in real life there are people who are unreasonably talented at things that others have to work for and frankly there are even in the real world people who are freaks and can do amazing things. The idea that naruto will surpass all adversarys in time is what the show is about. He has to go one step at a time. He will come out on top in the end, and if you ask me I think he will learn quite a few more sweet jutsus on the way.

dfcarolinaguy

March 25, 2007, 05:56 PM

OP_overlord

March 25, 2007, 09:08 PM

i also agree with you but im alittle tired of it in part 1 he was the same way and then when he can back from his training i thought that he was going to be able to pawn people but he learnt nothing comparitavely (to sasuke) and he is like the weakest nin in konoha and he should be taking major steps ahead like sasuke did especialy since he has the super training program

shahrizal85

March 25, 2007, 11:53 PM

Well, isn't every manga are like that? The main characters would be destined to be the strongest in the end. Naruto used to be one of the most troublesome nins in his village. But after soem training with Jiraiya and Kakashi, I think it is time for Naruto to show us his new power.

rodis3d

March 27, 2007, 10:16 AM

I don't think Naruto is weak, but the way he beat kakuzu was boring; it'd be way cooler if he won through actual fighting, and not using one single uber-nuke-extermination-attack. i hope upcoming fights will be better and not that completely unbalanced.

baboysai

March 27, 2007, 11:49 AM

I think the fight between naruto and kakuzu was intentionally downplayed because it's not a turning point in the story. Like the Zabuza thing.

Basically the fight had to happen to 1.) show the characters' new jutsus, and 2.) to slow down the akatsuki's movement in collecting all demon monsters. Now, the fight had to end quickly to probably1.) not confuse the readers. The main story in the arc is Naruto, Sasuke, and Itachi. There's no point dwelling here. 2.) show that although akatsuki may still have some strategy left, they are, for the moment, manageable.

Naruto's jutsus had to be let out asap because (well, my personal opinion) people were getting impatient. He's been shown as a useless ninja for too long.

I may agree with it feeling going downhill, but don't you think that this is because this is the next bulk in the story? The first bulk finished with a very intense battle between Sasuke and Naruto. Here comes part two, three years after that climax. Remember, the first part climaxed after more or less 300 chapters. It's still quite the early chapters of the second part, and new characters are still being introduced. Recreating the setting, showing their new motives, showing how they have changed over these three years, unfolding the conflicts, these things take time. This isn't some fanfiction, it's a graphic novel. So I'm expecting well-thought out developments.

Lo0natick

April 06, 2007, 03:24 AM

I lost interest in Naruto. Pretty much after the Naruto vs Kakuzu and then the Sasuke arc, my interest in the series began to slip. I haven't been reading the manga for the past few weeks. I'll probably continue the wait until a new and more interesting arc emerges.

enlightened monkey

April 06, 2007, 10:21 AM

Mhm. While there were some interesting points in the earlier arcs, a lot of people were interested in seeing some sort of real development in Naruto -- new jutsus, new speed, something as opposed to having simply mastered the basics and small improvements in the other areas.

When NARUTO (not Sasuke, great, he's a super genius, it's like Superman -- only cared about him when he turned out to be able to die) starts doing something worth reading (like for example, a fight of his own that lasts more than two chapters)....I'll pick up interest again.

juUnior

April 06, 2007, 02:56 PM

Actually, I thought the same about new arc with Saske group, but on the other hand, after reading trans of 349 and seeing raw od 349 chapter, I think it just interesting after all, because.. tadadam finally one of mysterious answers in Naruto:
Curse Seal - what it is and it's origin
I think it's must to read :D

warsaint777

July 13, 2007, 05:02 AM

I want to know if anyone else that's worried that the Naruto manga has been getting worse has had this same thought.

It seems to me that the abilities and powers that Kishimoto has been giving to his characters all have the same boring characteristic of just being some infinitely malleable mass of something that can do anything and be made into anything. It started with Gaara, which was cool and okay, but then it got repetitive and became a sort of overused cheapshot.

For example, how boring is Shikamaru's "Shadow Sewing Needles" attack?- just a bunch of sharp black streams that can go through things. But the thing is: How is that any different from what Sai does with his magic ink or what Kakuzu had inside of his body? It's all just malleable streaks of black stuff. It's the same thing with Four-Tail Naruto. He was covered in a chakra sludge that apparently could turn into whatever. Giant hands, dopplegangers, whatever. It was basically like he was Gaara. Even Sasuke's new electric abilities have the same boring property. Super-long lightning sword? Lightning needles? Feh! This pattern is going to start with Naruto's wind and Deidara's clay soon, I'm sure.

All of these powers and moves completely lack creative substance; they are aesthetically insubstantial. It's all just stuff that can for some reason be turned into anything. Sand. Shadows. Ink. Chakra sludge. Fleshy string-things (Kakuzu). Electricity. Like everything else Kishimoto is making for his characters, these are merely different, very simple SHAPES. It's boring and repetitive.

Kishimoto needs to spend more time thinking of genuinely unique abilities that actually have sorts of LIMITS, so that the character can't necessarily just make whatever he/she wants at a whim. That's why Deidara is the most recent truly inspired character. He creates living bombs out of clay with his hand-mouths. That's all he should be able to do. Because that's all he can do, he has to think outside the box by doing things like making millions of microscopic bombs that can be breathed into the body, or create a giant clay dragon that can fire other living bombs from its mouth. Deidara is cool because there is LAW to his power. Aesthetically speaking AND science-fictionally speaking.

What I'm basically saying here is that characters can't be built in a way where if they did absolutely anything, randomly, you have to be just like "Oh, so he can do that I guess." At this point in the series, if Sasuke created a giant electric goat that rammed into things and exploded, it'd just be like "Oh, so he can do that apparently." NO. You have to be like "What the eff?! That's not the kind of thing Sasuke does!" You get me?

None of this made sense, did it?

ShadwsofArchonia

July 13, 2007, 06:58 AM

It made more sense than you might think it did. And I whole-heartedly agree with you. Not to mention I'm also getting the feeling where Kishimoto is over powering his antagonists and under powering his protagonist. Where Sasuke, Sasuke took down Orochimaru (the Sannin was weak, but still). He is now proceeding to give Diedra a very hard time and will in the end apparently win against Diedra. So that's him taking down TWO S-class Nins.

What. has Naruto, accomplished?

otherside9

July 13, 2007, 07:04 AM

I completely agree with you. I think that what you're describing is a common occurence in long mangas when the author has simply run out of inspiration. Bleach is suffering from similar problems too, I think, and so I D.Gray Man, to an extent. Maybe it's time for a new manga? -_-;

Or maybe Kishimoto will get his ass in gear and come up with something new. Who knows, we can always hope.

Skeith

July 13, 2007, 07:06 AM

it made sense... and reminds me of an article i read once... it was about how comic book characters need like one miracle to get them started off as a hero-of-sorts and then the rest of their abilities and things associated with it should have some sort of reasonable explanation

but i like shikamaru's needle attack (but i like simple things) its a nice upgrade to his kage mane jutsu and helps give him some more maneuverability. as for sai, yeah he can draw anything... but the fact that his written words can change to animals and run off and take care of themselves is cool... (wish my pics would...) kakuzu i liked cuz he was like a zombie (and detached his limbs) sasuke... i hate him but atleast it wasn't black lol 4T meh... we saw some of that when naruto first got that aura thing around him when he fought sasuke so... it wasn't really that big of a deal... But i think deidara also has this because he can create anything with his clay... the only really special thing was the bombing, the mouths and then the dragon and microbombs-IMO aesthetically sure but again i like simple things so i don't mind any of it...
yeah i agree that if a character like sasuke pulls a lightning-goat outta his arse randomly then yeah i agree its not right... if a new akatsuki character does it (one we haven't seen) then i really won't care... it'll probably suck... don't like bombing goats... but hey w/e right?

deathscent

July 13, 2007, 10:58 AM

i like your opinion. this is a sketchy topic to work around because of "creative license" and all that BS, but your opinion makes a lot of sense. i personally thought shenanigans on naruto's "chakra sludge" (genius, BTW) as it does all this and that, but, it forms junk too? that pushes it a lot. i would understand like resistance, the boost, the body deterioration, and the heavy impact healing, but to form outside body? c'mon!
sasuke's always pissed me off, he just seems like one of the worst characters because he's always brought up so high *damn you, kishi!*. i find some things reasonable because of the "manipulations", but it's all to ease the writing for kishi. this is also kishi's weakness, however, as he'll soon make a neat little pit in front of his train, which will probably cause the worst chapters to come out, especially soon. the deterioration in story has come a long way, but it's still at least plausible for now. until the story makes no sense whatsoever, I'll continue to read the manga, or else until the story just reeks of garbage.

Oreo42

July 13, 2007, 11:06 AM

I can sort of see your point. There are a couple things I would dispute:

1st - Shikamru: Shika didn't change the form of his Jutsu. He can't make a shadow tiger that will maul someone. He merely upgraded is Kage Jutsu so that it was no longer bound simply to 2 dimensions. If you think about it they already had the ability to have a solid nature as was proven with the Kage Choke you out no jutsu!

2nd - Naruto's Chakra Sludge: At this point Naruto was consumed by Kyuubi chakra and the rage and malice that it contains took over. I mean to say that he was more Kyuubi and Naruto at that point. I believe that was an isolated incident and that we probably won't see that anytime soon as it's a very dangerous state.

3rd Saskue: I think you failed to mention that there is a law. Saskue cannot just extend his chidori blade where ever he wants. There is a range. Also, I think the Lightening needles may have been actual needles charged with lightening manipulated chakra. I think that's unclear sill

I think the real issue is the Kishimoto hasn't introduced us to any new Jutsu from other characters. Even Neji didn't use anything new, Ten-Ten just has a bigger weapons scroll, and Lee well he's all Tai-jutsu anyhow.

Decorus

July 13, 2007, 01:31 PM

For Sasuke his Chidori blade has a 5 meter range. Yes its merely Lightning imbued physical needles which is kinda obvious if you look at it.

As for Kishimoto using simple shapes, you have to understand how much of a pain it is to draw out complicated shapes and objects in every section of a manga. Especially when you have to do it over and over again for weeks at a time. So your more likely to find him simplifying things to be able to quickly finish the manga.

Alterno

July 13, 2007, 02:24 PM

Well, I agree in some points and in others not.

You say boring... what you really mean with boring? I found really interesting to see how shikamura is advancing with his line of kage jutsu. Is good to see the development of a character as it was good to see Naruto training to complete his version of Rasengan.

Maybe you think that they can do whatever they want at their whim, is not that simple. The might have the ability to transform everything in what they want but they can't keep in that way forever. Taking Shikamaru as example, he can use kage techniques but he can't keep them for a long period of time. Garaa can use the sand and tranform it and move it as his wish, but it has a maximum range (watch garaa vs deidara fight). Sasuke can use his chidori blade but he has a limit of 5mts.

As for the antagonist being overpowered, I don't think so... What we have seen so far in this manga is that as most powerful your character is, bigger is the weakness. For example iatchi and kakashi, they both can use Magenkyo Sharingan, but after using it they can barely move, becoming an easy target in the case of 2 vs 1 or in the case they fail it. Kishimot did right by letting sasuke kill or take over orochimaru when he was in his weakest status. Naruto is a good example as well, the kyubi chakra is causing damage to his body.

What I really like of this Manga/Anime, is that this not just about brute force is also about skills and using his mind. A good example is Shikamaru vs Hidan and why not Sasuke vs Deidara.:D

juUnior

July 15, 2007, 05:31 AM

I just agree with Alterno, about what he said : )

Also from my point of view, everything shown in characters and his developments and their techniques are unique for them, and I really enjoy seeing how they improve with what they have in theirs disposal abilities. Thats all.

fremeer

July 15, 2007, 11:07 AM

actually i like how naruto in this regard. its not as strict on powers as some manga but gives some leeway onto what each character can learn. By starting off as rookie's each character can be shown to specialize in certain areas. all the rookie's had their own specific jutsu's that they used. the most generic were naruto, sasuke and sakura. Each other character cept maybe hinata/neji had very diff styles of fighting.
After the time skip team 7 has become more specialized in the jutsu shown. The supporting same age group class is even more specialized in each of their respective areas. Only the jounin can really be said to branch out and even then they stick to what they good at. The use of elemental type jutsu also restricts some stuff to characters.
yes deidera was interesting but was he any diff to sasori who only showed the power to move puppets or gaara who only used sand?
Although each character can supposedly learn any move set cept for bloodlines im guessing each will focus on certain things just like real life, sure neji could use rasengan but will it fit into his character? no.
even kakashi the master of jutsu only really uses water and lightning justsu's with some mix of taijutsu.

Alterno

July 15, 2007, 11:36 AM

You know, I don't want this serie to go like Dragon ball saga... We all remember that the last creative technique was developed by Piccolo, His masenko beam. After that everything was pretty much the same. Ok, you can talk about the genki dama, but it wasn't more than a big ball of ki floating over Goku's head.

Each character was able to use the 98% of techniques of the others characters, so Toriyama ran out of new ideas. I hope to see new techniques for naruto and rest of the gang, but I preffer to see enemies with new and unique specials attacks, this fight between sasuke and deidara was a blast.

Paradoxicon

July 15, 2007, 12:00 PM

Well, it's true that many techniques are more or less the same. But what annoys me more is that introduction of the Pokemon like element x beats element y beats element z and so on.

They just shouldn't have mentioned it at all. Without it it would have been Sasuke simply outsmarting Deidara and telling him "I used Chidori to diffuse your bombs!" and not like "You never had a chance cause lightning beats earth lol pwned!!!!11"

sky_1185

July 16, 2007, 12:53 AM

Interesting Topic my friends, I have also been bothered by this for quite some time. Especially when Naruto used Rasengan when ever he had a chance to make a kage bunshin or two. The funny thing is that when I was joking around with my friends, I thought it would have been funny if he made giant Naruto Rasengan Bunshin's that were surrounded by swirling chakra and just launched them at people.(This was after they showed Sasuke using Chidori Nagashi) I was thinking...if Sasuke can emit Chidori out of his entire body then Naruto can emit Rasengan out of his entire body as well.

About the elements being introduced, it was both a gate way to new jutsu but it was also a 'seal' if you will on the list of skills possible by any one ninja...except for the few people that seem to be able to do whatever they want whenever they want.

One thing I don't understand is how Sasuke can see things that are underground...since when was Sharingan able to see through objects? It's not freaking Byakugan. I don't think he should have been able to see the mines through the ground.

Expect Sakura to be a water element. That I can be sure of. Sasuke has fire and lightning, naruto has wind that beats lightning and Sakura will have water to beat fire.

LanderZ

July 16, 2007, 01:36 AM

@Alterno: I know I'm going to be called a DBZ freak for this, but Masenko was Gohan's. Makkenkosappo was Piccolo's =p

@Others:
Specialization is something that a lot of people just plain and simply do not understand about the Narutoverse. These shinobi are fighting for their lives. They are fighting unknown opponents, who would just as readily kill them as they would destroy their friends. You need to be the top of your game, and consistantly improve, in order to compete.

This is why smarts are so valued. People like Shika are never going to be stuck, because they can always adapt and come up with new strategies and figure things out, even with a limited Jutsu aresonal. They won't just up and die [which kinda defeats the purpose, since all this effort has gone into raising/training this person], and they might just take out a few of the "enemy" in the process.

Therefore, when people train, they are NOT going to suddenly say "Hey, I feel like I should learn Suiton before my B-rank mission next week, and really hope those rumous about that war with the Kaze no Kuni turn out false." Not a chance. They are going to refine the skills that suit them best, and take them to the next level. Then, once they've mastered that, they will improve things that synergize with it, like improving chakra pool to allow for more uses of the Jutsu, or creating a Jutsu that improves the capability of the other.

An obvious example being Kiba. He probably came up with Tsuuga, which is a pretty nifty Jutsu. Decently destructive, it's a close-range Jutsu, but is fast enough to close in a short distance to use, as well. Then he probably made Shikyaku no Jutsu [I believe this is the one I'm thinking of... Quadraped technique or some such], to increase his animal-brawling capacity. This means his claw-attacks and whatnot are fast, stronger, and harder. This would make Tsuuga stronger. Then he taught Akamaru Juujin Bunshin, and upgraded Tsuuga to Gatsuuga. Badda bing, a nice combo of 3 Jutsu [Shikyaku, followed by Juujin Bunshin, followed by Gatsuuga].

Then he goes off and improves upon his fighting even more, by creating the Soutourou Henge, fusing Akamaru and him together for even more fun destruction, and Garouga, which dices the opponent but good. Another combo attack: Dynamic Air Marking, Soutourou Henge, and Garouga. Devastatingly powerful. Downside being that Kiba has issues with Garouga and Chakra, but that's likely been worked out in the timeskip.

People specialize in order to maximize their killing potential. If you want to up and learn something new, it is HARD! It takes time away from training other things, and as much as we see Naruto training in every spare moment, not everyone has a lot of time to just train. More capable ninjas are given harder missions, and are kept busy working, and have to try to schedule both life and training and sleep into their busy schedules. It's not often that people will get a month to just up and do nothing but train to learn an element. And not everyone has a gimmick to exponentially improve upon their training capabilities, like Kage Bunshin or Sharingan.

So, for someone to up and claim "Hey, let's learn/do this", they'd have to think long and hard about just what they're investing their time into, because if it could have been better spent training what they're already good at, it could cost them, or even kill them or an ally, in an upcoming mission. Someone learning to use Fuuton, for instance, will learn to cut a leaf. Great. So, someone spends a few weeks of vacation [with pay, of course =p] time learning to do this. Great, now back to the battlefields of the A-ranked missions and higher. I'm sure glad the Taijutsu-happy guy spent his time doing this, because it's sure going to help when they need those leaves slightly sliced to confuse their foes =p.

Yes, the Fuuton might have combo'd nicely with a close-range Taijutsu fighter, but they often lack the time to get it to a point where it is usable before they're back to work. Hence, it's often better to just specialize, and learn what is definetely going to help [and improve upon existing skills] than it is to branch out.

This is a shout out to 99% of the Naruto RPG's out there, which seem to think that every bloody shinobi needs every bloody universal technique, and their village's element, and all their clan Jutsu, just to be considered viable. People use the same attacks over and over in fights [often in slightly varied forms], because they trained those attacks best. No-one runs around using high end Raiton, and then busts out a regular Bunshin, Henge, and some super-low-end Doton [offensive] technique. It's just unrealistic.

[Sorry for the rant kinda targetting realism and whatnot, but Kishimoto has obviously made an effort to make things fairly realistic.... we need to see it from that perspective to understand these things].

So, yes, people use the same types of techniques over and over. If they didn't, I'd probably stop reading, because it'd just be stupid [and DBZ'ish].

sky_1185

July 16, 2007, 11:58 PM

Also it's easier to draw...haha. It's MUCH easier to draw. Before you could tell in the manga that the techniques were sort of growing and becoming huge and graphically intense. But when you have to animate that...ie Tajuu Kage Bunshin...it's a pain in the arse really. I always say that they would learn more techniques if they wanted to, and they probably could but this is a shonen and each character has to have their key feature, which is why there are only a few unique ninja who can do almost anything,

My one beef is with Kakashi. Supposedly copied thousands of jutsu with his sharingan. Yet the only doton he seems to know is how to make a small hole and hide inside of it.

fxrznaruto23

July 17, 2007, 08:34 AM

warsaint777

July 18, 2007, 10:55 AM

My heart bleeds at the thought of how so much of what's in a weekly manga is impacted by deadlines.

Honestly, I think I'm going to just regard Kishimoto as a good artist and stop taking the manga seriously.

woof

July 18, 2007, 08:28 PM

this thread gives me headache as absolutly cant agree with what you are saying...

almost 4 am over here...

im not saying more than ... yes it didnt make sense too me ... gn8 ^^

Musashi_Keiji

July 21, 2007, 03:14 AM

Well the way I see it's envitable for any story to become semi-repetitive the way the TC was describing. You got 3 basic forms of attacks:
Hitting
Stabbing
Slicing

after that it's all about making them unique by having them being flaming attacks, electrical, earthly, etc.

But yes some characters will stray for the usual. And by the time it gets to important intense fights. Like say Itachi vs Sasuke death match. You'll probably start seeing more interesting jutsu.

Naruto compared to many other manga is a hell of alot more original. Look at Bleach, all they do is use swords and swords with fire/ice, or some crap like that. Inuyasha, if you ever seen it you know what i mean...

If you want unique crazy looking fights go read something like Jojo's Bizzare adventure or One Piece. One Piece pwns.

starfall856

July 21, 2007, 11:58 AM

If you don't like their attacks try to think of new ones, theres not much you can do,
I tried and all I got was a headache and Air that choked you (sounds like Shikamaru's jutsu now doesn't it)
but I have to agree with you the Deidara was super original, bombs that look like animals made by mouthes in his hands, <33333333
I also have to agree with you when you say pretty much anyone can do anything, look at Sasuke "Im going to summon Manda when I have no chakra left then Im going to float around inside him to make everybody think Im dead, again with no chakra, not to mention the explosion that pretty much wiped out everything around me while I was doing all of this"
Except the Akatsuki who pretty much get their butts handed to them on a plate when ever they try to fight someone, for a top secret organization trying to take over the world they are pretty weak.

Toad Sage

July 21, 2007, 08:43 PM

Excellent post Warsaint! I agree with it wholeheartedly, and the only thing I can take exception to is the fact you "forgot" to add INSECTS to the list of things that can be shaped to do stuff. Also, more seriously, Hidan too had a power that was well defined in the sense it had governing rules, seeming limitations, and a necessity to be applied creatively to battle, rather than "stuff happens" explosions.

Not to exceed the scope of your topic, but I feel there are other examples of Kishimoto's lazy writing and lack of creativity to mention besides the powers. In general I find the second act to be much less motivated by story purposes and character interaction and more motivated by show casing powers. All the while this battle dome act's story is largely sustained by creating artifical suspense in the form of "what's the new jutsu going to look like" or "who is the AL?!" stuff which falls away from the original, more deep in my opinion, ideas like Naruto's redeemptive influence and determination to gain the trust of his peers.

On that note, the story was majorly sidetracked by allowing Sasuke to save himself, probably the supreme example of lazy writing in act 2. Rather than start the second act with concentrated effort to pick up where act one left off, he just started "battledoming" it. By the time he realized it would be impossible to properly address the Sasuke rescue arc, which was at that point the fundamental theme of the story(as he seemed to make no effort to follow up on the Hokage theme, or even include Naruto much for that matter), he resolved instead to have Sasuke save himself? Huh? And now we're supposed to believe the thing that reunites Naruto and Sasuke is hunting Itachi? Sigh...

fxrznaruto23

July 25, 2007, 08:10 AM

inos moves suck they just dont help or do eny think 2 help in a fight...................
that move is so weak the joing sakura got out of it and sakura is very weak.........

Kusachu

July 26, 2007, 12:44 AM

Deidara wasn't really all that original in my opinion. I just never really liked him that much I guess. He used bombs and had that cliche of the 'mad bomber' who is obsessed with explosions and such, as is seen in so many movies about mad bombers. And speaking of the mouths in his hands, the first thing i thought when i saw them was 'Vampire Hunter D rip-off'. I wont even go into my disdain for his "Cell" explosion.

But all in all, I really like the characters and their powers. I think Kishimoto tries hard to put a unique spin on things. You can't make a masterpiece with EVERY character and ability though (as is quite apparent with the kunoichis and their massive amount of suckage). As my old teacher used to say about creating characters and super-powers: It's all been done before. It's the quality of the story that's important.

aimaimaim

July 27, 2007, 11:09 PM

marte1980

July 27, 2007, 11:13 PM

Decorus

July 28, 2007, 12:59 AM

Uchiha used to be special and now so much of the meaning behind Sasuke and Itachi's relationship that will end in tragedy has been lost. Too much of Uchiha ruins thier story.

2ndKurono

July 28, 2007, 02:53 AM

tsk,yeah right ,Naruto undeveloped well thats why hes the stronger one,i dont like all those talented ones , i like those who are confident and thats those Naruto types,im not realy a Sasuke type,But Naruto is stronger then Sasuke,i newer seen a main char beein seccond.

Alterno

July 28, 2007, 09:34 AM

Naruto announced that he will be leaving the series in both anime and manga, due contractual violations. :D

Raimaru

July 28, 2007, 04:33 PM

Oh well, I'm quite ok with so many Uchihas in Naruto, since I guess they will die one after another in the upcoming chapters - but not that early. I think the order might be like that:

1. Itachi
2. Tobi, for me: Obito - plus Kakashi, cause he has the other eye, like they kill each other in a final fight or smth like that
(3. Sasuke - Well, I don't expect Kishimoto to kill his beloved favourite char... , but maybe he will finally get what he deserves ... maybe)

Alterno

July 28, 2007, 07:04 PM

Is about Naruto, is just that the actual plot involve the clan uchiha. Is about naruto trying to fullfill his promise to sakura and save his friend. at the begining it was about saving sasuke from orochimaru, now is mostly about saving him from himself and to fullfill his promise. Naruto said to Sasuke: "How can someone that can't save his friend become hokage". ;)

aimaimaim

July 28, 2007, 07:34 PM

im saying.. itachi killed his best pal for MS, sasuke wants to avenge his clan by going to orochi for power.. now we see, tobi gathering all the tailed beast for whatever specific reas0n but we all n0w its power.. what about narut0? we saw him training f0r that new rasengan with wind element(forgot the name), but thats it.. all of the series covered was some new characters get killed, n0 character development, not even to the heroine sakura. only sasuke's clan and n0th m0re.. well thats that.. tobi is an uchiha.. though im n0t saying that he is tobi.. im on the neutral side on that issue XD

lucky

July 29, 2007, 10:44 PM

.. crap.. this is "naruto".. not "uchiha".. im starting to get annoyed by these characters.. leaving narut0 being an undeveloped character.. while all those 'power freaks' get all the fun

just my opinion though..

strongly agree.

im waiting for the day that we get a major plot line that actually involves naruto's character [not just him chasing after someone or jumping up and down on the sidelines].

Most of the series has been all about the sharingan in one way or another. Instead of calling the series "uchiha" i would vote for the name "sharingan".

I would argue that most of the development surrounding naruto focuses only on kyuubi in one way or another. Fair enough, but what about our little protagonist?

Overall the series gets two themes: Sharingan and Kyuubi - And with the latest chapter, they seem poised to play an even bigger role in the forseeable future.

Seriously, is naruto supposed to have no character other than his the kyuubi? Well, hes an ambitious guy who has a profound effect on those around him. But isnt that a bit old of a theme? sure, its always going to be the foundation of his character, but what about the nitty gritty - the details - that really make a character interesting?

We got a gaiden that gave us some nitty gritty on kakashi, but when will we get it for naruto? Does he have a history? Are we going to hear it? Where are his parents? What is his clan name? Exactly what were the circumstances of the kyuubi sealing? And so on...

Even if we were to get such information/revelations, would they drive the story in the way the sharingan has for the entire series? Ideally they would, but the series might be running a bit long if it were to fit. I suspect and detailed development of naruto or revelations on his ancestry/history would all be tied to and driven by the kyuubi.

I suppose it depends on how long the series will run for - if the length is unlimited then anything can happen. i hope that we dont run out of chapters before naruto really gets to retake the limelight.