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View Full Version : Your Thoughts on Ichigo



gigantor21
March 31, 2008, 03:06 PM
Honestly...I have to say he's one of the most boring protagonists ever.

Granted, he wasn't exactly Kamina to begin with--how many anti-social high school punks do you see in this genre?--but I genuinely liked him when the manga started. His relationship with his friends and his family, and how that was affected by the death of his mother, made him very compelling. There was a genuine undercurrent behind his declarations to protect.

Now, I cringe when he swears he'll do something, because it's almost guaranteed that he'll lose or break the story somehow. I can't imagine what Kubo will pull during the Ulquiorra fight, and I don't want to see it--the exact opposite of what should happen in a fighting shonen. More importantly, it's clear that the "resolve" thing is all Ichigo's got, personality wise, and Kubo ran out of ways to keep it fresh and sincere a long time ago. He's too shallow to carry the series IMO.

What do you guys think?

Zeus-Tails
March 31, 2008, 05:38 PM
We should make Kon the protagonist.

black_burn
March 31, 2008, 07:48 PM
its true he doesn't have as much depth as other characters(naruto,allen,lag,nagi,ikki)but he is still a decent protangonist.sometimes in bleach i think if ichigo werta soulreaper from the beginin he wud have more years and more stories and flash backs instead of what we are having now(everlasting reminding us about resolve and defeats that couldnt happen in 100 years of training)

weixiaobao
March 31, 2008, 07:53 PM
well, he was kinda cool in the beginning.. and now i dunno he is kinda dumb, and inconsistence, ... beside he is not even a fan favorite ..

Razh
March 31, 2008, 09:23 PM
I think he should be more defined as a character.

But really, lately, he's been beaten a lot, by his enemies, and Hyori alike :p

Honestly, I thought to myself "finally" when I was reading these 2 pages;
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/282/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/282/10/

That's more like it. Reminded me of the beginning.

gigantor21
March 31, 2008, 09:33 PM
^ Yeah, same here. I saw that and I was like "Ichigo getting character development!? WTF YES!!" Of course, it got completely neutered as soon as the fight ended. But it was nice while it lasted. :p

Honestly, I don't get how he's always in the top 3 with every poll. He's like the Yammi of shonen protagonists. ;)

_ATMA
March 31, 2008, 10:57 PM
i think the new thing behind ichigo may be something more like he needs to fail before he can go on and he needs to have dirt rubbed in his eyes before he can expand anymore as a character imo

he needs to take a new approach to how he can over come his boundaries and one of the steps to it is he needs to fail, BADLY. im actually glad he has had his ass handed to him repeatably

gigantor21
March 31, 2008, 11:03 PM
^ That'd be all well and good, if not for 2 things:

1) He's lost almost every match he's been in since the SS Arc ended, and

2) With Orihime around, no one on his side will die for good.

I think we've seen him get slapped around like a bitch enough--but Ryoma from PoT (who I hate) has more depth in spite of ALWAYS winning. So I don't think that explains it.

squidbreath
April 01, 2008, 05:21 AM
2) With Orihime around, no one on his side will die for good.
.

But that's what i like about bleach! No one ever dies :D

Zeus-Tails
April 01, 2008, 06:09 AM
But that's what i like about bleach! No one ever dies :D

Well they can die, but not for long. At first, I thought that as long as the person stays alive, they're good, but Orihime can bring them back from the dead (See the fraccion girl that Grimmjow incinerated), so what the hell? Is there any reason to be nervous when someone is dead or on the verge of dying?

I don't need to hear anymore "OMG! Chad's reiatsu is gone!" or "OMG! Rukia!" because Orihime is always there =\

_ATMA
April 01, 2008, 06:51 AM
^ That'd be all well and good, if not for 2 things:

1) He's lost almost every match he's been in since the SS Arc ended, and

2) With Orihime around, no one on his side will die for good.

I think we've seen him get slapped around like a bitch enough--but Ryoma from PoT (who I hate) has more depth in spite of ALWAYS winning. So I don't think that explains it.

yea but look how long it has taken ichigo to find the courage to finly properly accept his hallow side after all this time? id have to say though his ass getting handed to him is going to probably come to an end soon and hes going to start learning some new much needed tricks

at least this is what i speculate xD but honestly i think the him getting his ass handed to him over and over and over since SS was much needed to help further later development we may just be over looking the such obvious that we think it couldnt be true :amuse

Silhouette
April 01, 2008, 07:19 AM
I think Ichigo is doing pretty darn well considering how long he has been a shinigami, even Shinji recognized that he achieved bankai in a short time and dueled with captains and that's why he took Ichigo off the "shitty Hiyori walker" to directly face off his hollow.

My thoughts on Ichigo's power:
Ichigo has never lost when he had his mask on including the short 10 seconds segments of his battle against GJ and Ulquiorra.
Although I think he will maybe stronger if it was Zangetsu by his side rather than his hollow. Zangetsu lends all of his powers willingly and acts like a mentor and a guide while using Shirusaki is as good as riding a wild horse in a race.
Some may think that Ichigo barely survived his fight with GJ and got owned by Nnoitra so how is he going to fight Ulquiorra. Such assumption is not entirely true. Reasons are:
1) Ichigo got hit by several of GJ's spikes which was what messed him up even though he still continued to fight and beat GJ
2) He was already messed up when he faced Nnoitra
The real question is will Ichigo be able to call upon his hollow powers and keep it while facing Ulquiorra?

My thoughts on Ichigo's personality
He still wants to keep his comrades from harms way and he still goes to extreme measures to save those who he cares about (e.g getting hit by Ulquiorra's cero for the sake of protecting Nel and later acting as a body armour and receiving five of GJ's mighty spikes/claws to protect Nel and Orihime).
However, Ichigo's goal is not just saving anyone anymore. He wants to beat the living hell out of those who looked down on him and beat him. GJ realized that and said it to Ichigo:"you could've taken the girl and ran away but instead you're still here fighting me" . This can also be seen when later Ichigo said right before delivering the final blow to GJ :"I will beat you, Ulquiorra and then then i will take everyone and go home". This change occurred ever since Ichigo realized his instinct for battle.

I am not sure how this change will change Ichigo's destiny but power is the first step in becoming a leader in the shinigami world.



I don't need to hear anymore "OMG! Chad's reiatsu is gone!" or "OMG! Rukia!" because Orihime is always there =\

lol, it's true to an extend

However, Orihime did not bring anyone from the dead, this is not Naruto where there is a jutsu for everything even reviving the dead (which by they way happened several times in that awful series). What happened with the the arrancar girl is similar to what happened before when Ulquiorra cero-ed Orihime's accompanying shinamis, they were hit bad, half of their bodies were burn to ashed but it has been said since the beginning of the series that the only way to make sure that a shinigami is dead is by cutting off his/her head, I would think if the two lowly shinigamis could survive for a while then why can't arrancars?
Just my thoughts!

IchigoSoul
April 01, 2008, 07:29 AM
Ichigo havent had any character development but his personality is interesting enough. He lives to protect his friend. That got my respect.

kat_at_heart
April 01, 2008, 07:34 AM
i like ichigo's character but i think he could do with been a bit older with a bit more history and somtimes he can be really corny, my thoughts on ichigo's power is that kubo changes his mind on how powerful his creations actually are i mean ichigo beat byakuya with bankai and was no match for grimjow but then got his mask he beat him, and he beat zaraki with shikai were zaraki beat someone stronger than grimjow with bloody kendo,
i think to make ichigo a better person kubo will just have to remeber how powerful he is

Decorus
April 01, 2008, 09:27 AM
Zangetsu = Shirosaki. They are the same thing which one appears depends on which power is dominant shinigami or hollow.

weixiaobao
April 01, 2008, 10:10 AM
Ichigo havent had any character development but his personality is interesting enough. He lives to protect his friend. That got my respect.

This is kinda make him like a control freak.. (kind of).. he looks down on his friends now like rukia, chad, and even ishida (often, he told them to step aside and not allow them to fight by his side, unawarely and unintentionally i suppose).. until they show him otherwise with their new improved abilities..

_ATMA
April 01, 2008, 10:38 AM
This is kinda make him like a control freak.. (kind of).. he looks down on his friends now like rukia, chad, and even ishida (often, he told them to step aside and not allow them to fight by his side, unawarely and unintentionally i suppose).. until they show him otherwise with their new improved abilities..

this just happens to be his character trait and the way he lives for protecting his friends and family. he steps on the front lines so they dont have to. its mainly his wish to protect them though at times he unintentially hurts himself and the other around him by not allowing them to fight w/ him

gigantor21
April 01, 2008, 11:36 AM
@Silhouette:

On Ichigo's powers - Ulquiorra took no serious damage when Ichigo had the mask. He too k a full Getsuten (unreleased at that) and only got his clothes burned--he said himself he was just "a little surprised", but still dissappointed.

More mask time alone won't do any good here. He needs more of Shirosaki's reiatsu--a LOT more--while using the mask. Ichigo hasn't made any headway there since getting Vaizard powers, so he'll have to make another convenient quantum leap in strength to pull out the win.

It'd be like Ichigo beating Byakuya on the bridge, back when he had no GT or Bankai, because he learned those things on the spot to protect Rukia and Co. I do NOT want to see that.

On Ichigo's personality - He was doing that exact same thing WAY before this arc. Remember Grand Fisher? And by that same logic, he could've just tried to run from the Captains, but he let Renji take her so he could fight Byakuya instead.

To quote Ichigo himself before fighting Ikkaku (back in Volume 10):

"If you really are stronger than me, there'd be no point in running when you'd catch up with me anyways. But if you're weak, I can just kick your ass and get on my way. That's what I was thinking."

Ichigo has never been the type to back down from a challenge, whether the opponent looks down on him or not. What changed in the GJ fight is that he was leaning towards his more bloodthirsty side to meet that challenge. But it was cast aside to make room for his more palatable protectiveness, making the turnaround another convenient power boost.

And, again, that was the only example of Ichigo getting character development in the entire arc. If Kubo was more daring and aggressive on that end, Ichigo would be a much better lead character.

Silhouette
April 01, 2008, 04:47 PM
@Silhouette:
On Ichigo's powers - Ulquiorra took no serious damage when Ichigo had the mask. He too k a full Getsuten (unreleased at that) and only got his clothes burned--he said himself he was just "a little surprised", but still dissappointed.

Bro, I don't know why you can't see past the bigass GT part, If Ichigo had only GT to fight with he wouldn't have beat GJ. Also by using your reasoning, one can say masked-Ichigo also deflected Grand Ray Cero which cause a distortion in HM's sky without even being pushed back. You cannot judge a how a whole battle will be like based on a single attack especially after seeing a whole battle of masked-ichigo. And so I can't see why Ichigo would need a lot more reiatsu when his is already comparable to Ulquiorra's, what he needs is to concentrate on the fight without having to take hits for someone else.


@Silhouette:
It'd be like Ichigo beating Byakuya on the bridge, back when he had no GT or Bankai, because he learned those things on the spot to protect Rukia and Co. I do NOT want to see that.


It wasn't something "he learned on the spot". It was his banaki and even if he learned in 3 days, it what made his talent and potential special and gained him recognition by Urahara himself (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-132/%5Bmanga-rain%5Dbleach-ch132-17.png_1050.jpg) and later even by Vizards.


@Silhouette:
On Ichigo's personality - He was doing that exact same thing WAY before this arc. Remember Grand Fisher? And by that same logic, he could've just tried to run from the Captains, but he let Renji take her so he could fight Byakuya instead.
.

GF was the one who killed his mother, you think he would run away?

The circumstances where different when he fought Byakuya, Ichigo had to fight Byakuya to give Renji a chance to run away with Rukia, he didn't even try to take Orihime and run when he fought GJ. But for the sake of the argument I will use another part where his instinct became more obvious, Why would Ichigo say " I will beat you, Ulquiorra then take everyone home" ? Ulquiorra was already gone then and picking up Sado and the others does not require him to fight with Ulquiorra or anyone else at the time he said it, so why would he still seek to fight Ulquiorra?

I mean in SS, Ichigo did try to run away from Kenpachi when he couldn't cut him right? and his GT didn't cause damage to Ulquiorra yet he wants to fight him!

It's clear that you don't like Ichigo and maybe even hate him and that's fine but please mate, don't get hung up on an incident without seeing the development the follows, you might have a different opinion.

At least when compared to other mangas heroes, Ichigo is not the goofy kind hearted protagonist who acts like an idiot for laughs.

gigantor21
April 03, 2008, 11:02 AM
^ Yes, I don't like him. But I don't really hate him, either--and that's where the problem lies.

I cannot STAND Mayuri. Because of his standing as a captain and his scientific genius, he was able to get away with killing off the Quincy for sport and stomping out his daughter while she lay dying. I hate his pious arrogance, and his callous disregard for those around him. I hate that Ishida wasn't able to kill him, and I hate that Ishida basically forgot that he killed his granfather and ALL THE REMNANTS OF HIS CLAN when he came back to HM.

In contrast, Zaraki is one of my favorite characters in ANY series. I love how he can wear bells in his hair, and spend hours putting them in, but is still more GARtastic than most of his shonen peers. I love how he just hacks everything to pieces, and doesn't give half a damn when he gets sliced up--and actually ENJOYS it. I love how he interacts with his underlings, especially Yachiru, because she (ironically) doesn't find him intimidating. As much as I hated the Zaraki-Nori fight, I was glad we got to see him again.

But with Ichigo, he just kind of sits there. He's too pedestrian. When he's not fighting, he's either being moody or shocked most of the time, which I'd expect from just about ANY 15 year old put into that situation. I just don't get how all his friends and family have more distinct, and consistent, characterization than he does.

As far as your specific points:

- The HUGE GT is exactly what I was talking about. THAT'S what didn't hurt Ulquiorra, and that's why I say he'll have to do more than that in their fight. I don't think it's comparable to Gran Ray Cero because A) it was fired by GJ, who's cleary weaker than Ulq, and B) we've never even seen Ulquiorra use it. Nor do I get how you can say he has comparable reiatsu to Ulquiorra--he has that potential, yes, but he would've crushed Grimmjow during their fight if that was the case.

- What I meant with the bridge fight is that he didn't know how to use those things when he was there. His Bankai training started right after Yoruichi got him out of there. If he'd learned Bankai and GetsuTen during that fight, without any training, then I'm sure more than a few of us would be pissed off--and I'm worried we'll see something like that when Ichigo fights Ulquiorra.

- Urahara and Zaraki are the only ones Ichigo has ever run from. He never showed that kind of fear against anyone else, even when he was injured and would've been outclassed if he was healthy (i.e. against Aizen). Hell, he wouldn't have attained shinigami powers in the first place if he was the type to run from life-or-death fights. :p

Silhouette
April 03, 2008, 08:59 PM
- The HUGE GT is exactly what I was talking about. THAT'S what didn't hurt Ulquiorra, and that's why I say he'll have to do more than that in their fight. I don't think it's comparable to Gran Ray Cero because A) it was fired by GJ, who's cleary weaker than Ulq, and B) we've never even seen Ulquiorra use it. Nor do I get how you can say he has comparable reiatsu to Ulquiorra--he has that potential, yes, but he would've crushed Grimmjow during their fight if that was the case.



I am afraid your assumption is not totally accurate. GJ's cero burnt Ulquirra's arm, didn't it? so being lower in rank doesn't mean no. 6 cannot hurt no. 4
I don't know how Aizen ranks his espadas but GJ obviously stood his grounds against Ulquiorra. Not to mention that Ulquiorra did not deny GJ's claim that if he fought Ulquiorra, they would tear each other into shreds.

Ulquiorra himself made the statement about Ichigo's reiatsu the first time he met him but since hollow-Ichigo was interfering and causing the reiatsu to fluctuate, Ulquiorra thought that Ichigo could not control his reiatsu and thus deemed him as trash.



- What I meant with the bridge fight is that he didn't know how to use those things when he was there. His Bankai training started right after Yoruichi got him out of there. If he'd learned Bankai and GetsuTen during that fight, without any training, then I'm sure more than a few of us would be pissed off--and I'm worried we'll see something like that when Ichigo fights Ulquiorra.


No mate, Ichigo didn't learn banaki in the bridge fight, he leaned it underground with Yoruichi and using Urahara's device that forces zanpakuto to materialize. Please notice that it wasn't your ordinary banaki training, it was:
1) A training desigend by the most mysterious and arguably most intelligent character , Urahara.
2) only TWO shingamis were successful in that technique
3)Urahara is the one who convinced Yoruichi that Ichigo can handle it because he was able to see Ichigo's talent.

Plus, Ichigo does mention that it was Zangetsu who taught him how to fire GT.



- Urahara and Zaraki are the only ones Ichigo has ever run from. He never showed that kind of fear against anyone else, even when he was injured and would've been outclassed if he was healthy (i.e. against Aizen). Hell, he wouldn't have attained shinigami powers in the first place if he was the type to run from life-or-death fights. :p

He ran in the past nevertheless and that's exactly my point in showing how his character developed.

gigantor21
April 03, 2008, 09:36 PM
I am afraid your assumption is not totally accurate. GJ's cero burnt Ulquirra's arm, didn't it? so being lower in rank doesn't mean no. 6 cannot hurt no. 4
I don't know how Aizen ranks his espadas but GJ obviously stood his grounds against Ulquiorra. Not to mention that Ulquiorra did not deny GJ's claim that if he fought Ulquiorra, they would tear each other into shreds.

Ulquiorra himself made the statement about Ichigo's reiatsu the first time he met him but since hollow-Ichigo was interfering and causing the reiatsu to fluctuate, Ulquiorra thought that Ichigo could not control his reiatsu and thus deemed him as trash.


Well, the rankings are there for a reason. If the line between GJ and Ulquiorra was that tenuous, then I don't see how Ulquiorra didn't get raped while Ichigo had the mask on. The Cero exchange showed the clear delination between their strengths:

http://i26.tinypic.com/5d194h.jpg

Grimmjow's arm was the one that got burned all the way during the Cero exchange. Kubo was careful to keep us from seeing his right arm for several pages before showing this part.

http://i32.tinypic.com/10gd3xg.jpg

In contrast, all we see happen to Ulquiorra was his sleeve getting burned. I took that picture from an M7 HQ scan, but you can't tell if he took any damage--especially compared to GJ. They don't even show this much in the anime. And keep in mind that Ulquiorra blocked another point-blank Cero with the same hand; GJ took all his damage from ONE Cero.

With Ulquiorra not saying anything, how could he? GJ hit him with a cero as soon as he said that line. But regardless, Ulquiorra not saying anything doesn't tell you much; think of all the times Ichigo would jump into fights thinking he wouldn't lose, only to get his ass kicked into next week. I'm sure GJ was just being arrogant again, which is why Ulquiorra didn't bother replying. :p

On the power fluctuations, that's what I meant by "potential". Ichigo has shown he's capable of fighting Ulquiorra and winning, but that doesn't mean he's good enough to tap into that power right now. Again, if he were at that level, he wouldn't have struggled so much against GJ.


No mate, Ichigo didn't learn banaki in the bridge fight, he leaned it underground with Yoruichi and using Urahara's device that forces zanpakuto to materialize. Please notice that it wasn't your ordinary banaki training, it was:
1) A training desigend by the most mysterious and arguably most intelligent character , Urahara.
2) only TWO shingamis were successful in that technique
3)Urahara is the one who convinced Yoruichi that Ichigo can handle it because he was able to see Ichigo's talent.

Plus, Ichigo does mention that it was Zangetsu who taught him how to fire GT.


LOL I KNOW that he didn't learn Bankai on the bridge. That's the basis of argument. :D

I'm saying that it would've been stupid if, instead of using Urahara's device to learn Bankai, he just magically came up with it during his second fight with Byakuya on the bridge. And that I'm worried we might see something like that against Ulquiorra, because Ichigo JUST got healed after barely beating GJ and has had no time to prepare.

As far as Urahara's Bankai training, I know no other Shinigami could take it. But most shinigami aren't the sons of captains with Vaizard powers and their own series, either. Plus, no one's saying Urahara is uber 1337 for succeeding, since most of the other captains have Bankai and he made the device himself anyway. :p


He ran in the past nevertheless and that's exactly my point in showing how his character developed.


Well, I guess...but what exactly is it that we learn about him from that? He's still frightened by Zaraki now, but he dove right into fights with GJ and Ulquiorra despite being outclassed by them both at some point. I think that tells you way more about Zaraki than Ichigo.

Silhouette
April 03, 2008, 10:57 PM
About Ichigo v Ulquiorra:
Ulquiorra wasn't "raped" because masked Ichigo had time for one attack only.

About GJ's and Ulquiorra's arms after the cero exchange:
Perhaps you have also noticed that GJ used his left arm twice so the damage was from being hit twice in the same arm with Ulquiorra's cero while Ulquiorra used a different arm for each attack . And assuming that Ulquiorra didn't fire cero the first time, I can make assumptions like you and say that black shade on Ulquiora's arm is a burn especially that Ulquiorra used his right arm the second time around which means his left was burnt! Plus just like GJ, Ulquiorra's right arm wasn't shown at all after the second time they cero-ed each other. Heck Maybe the reason GJ was able to put the cube thing in Ulquiorra's hollow hole is because Ulquiorra had both arms burnt while GJ had one good arm.

About Ichigo's Preparation:

He doesn't need to, he can already maintain his mask long enough, what he needs is to be able to fight without distraction. Again what messed him up good against GJ is that he had to take 5 direct missiles/spikes to save Nel & Orihime.

About Zaraki
Kenpachi is more than a monster, the strongest shinigami in a generation, a true man amongst men and I can keep going about my fanboyism but I can't see where Ichigo was "frightened" this time around! Ichigo got kicked about by Zaraki twice and in both cases he was pissed off rather than frightened!

someguy0830
April 03, 2008, 11:07 PM
About Ichigo v Ulquiorra:
Ulquiorra wasn't "raped" because masked Ichigo had time for one attack only.His one attack was at full power and Ulquiorra didn't even try to dodge. He just blocked it with two hands and wasn't hurt. Had Ichigo thrown fifty the result wouldn't have changed.


About GJ's and Ulquiorra's arms after the cero exchange:
Perhaps you have also noticed that GJ used his left arm twice so the damage was from being hit twice in the same arm with Ulquiorra's cero while Ulquiorra used a different arm for each attack . And assuming that Ulquiorra didn't fire cero the first time, I can make assumptions like you and say that black shade on Ulquiora's arm is a burn especially that Ulquiorra used his right arm the second time around which means his left was burnt! Plus just like GJ, Ulquiorra's right arm wasn't shown at all after the second time they cero-ed each other. Heck Maybe the reason GJ was able to put the cube thing in Ulquiorra's hollow hole is because Ulquiorra had both arms burnt while GJ had one good arm.Ulquiorra wasn't hurt at all, and both fired only one cero each. It only took the one attack for Grimmjow to get his arm burnt.

gigantor21
April 03, 2008, 11:31 PM
About Ichigo v Ulquiorra:
Ulquiorra wasn't "raped" because masked Ichigo had time for one attack only.

GJ after ONE Masked GT:

http://i25.tinypic.com/33ys287.jpg

Ulquiorra after ONE Masked GT:

http://i29.tinypic.com/6o0jud.jpg


About GJ's and Ulquiorra's arms after the cero exchange:
Perhaps you have also noticed that GJ used his left arm twice so the damage was from being hit twice in the same arm with Ulquiorra's cero while Ulquiorra used a different arm for each attack . And assuming that Ulquiorra didn't fire cero the first time, I can make assumptions like you and say that black shade on Ulquiora's arm is a burn especially that Ulquiorra used his right arm the second time around which means his left was burnt! Plus just like GJ, Ulquiorra's right arm wasn't shown at all after the second time they cero-ed each other. Heck Maybe the reason GJ was able to put the cube thing in Ulquiorra's hollow hole is because Ulquiorra had both arms burnt while GJ had one good arm.

Okay, he did use a separate arm to attack and defend, but my point is that he took two of GJ Ceros at point blank range, deflected them, and had almost no damage. Considering how Kubo built up the panel showing GJ's damage, I'm sure he would have done the same thing with Ulquiorra. But he didn't:

http://i25.tinypic.com/2055idd.jpg

When he breaks out of the Caja Negacion, both hands are perfectly fine. If the damage was so bad Ulquiorra couldn't defend himself, then it would've remained after he got out. Comparied to GJ's right arm, which is burned to the elbow, I don't see where that assumption comes from.


About Ichigo's Preparation:

He doesn't need to, he can already maintain his mask long enough, what he needs is to be able to fight without distraction. Again what messed him up good against GJ is that he had to take 5 direct missiles/spikes to save Nel & Orihime.

But he was only able to use the mask for 11 seconds before that. And they were no less even before he took the spikes--had Ichigo gone in with the advantage, then he would've been batting GJ around from the start. Kubo has NEVER been subtle when it comes to showing someone outclassed; just look at how one-sided Ichigo vs. Doldooni and Ichigo-Ulquiorra I were.

Not once did he show Ichigo with the advantage up to that point. Seeing how he kept getting kicked around, and couldn't manage many clean hits, I figured Ichigo would've struggled to win either way. If Ichigo really did have more reiatsu than Ulquiorra, as you said, then he should've been manhandling him before taking the spikes.

But to bring things back on topic, this is exactly what I'm talking about. We've been going back and forth about Ichigo's opponents, and his powers, but not Ichigo himself. I find him much more interesting as a fighter than I do as a character--which shouldn't be the case for THE MAIN CHARACTER. That's what bothers me about him.

Silhouette
April 03, 2008, 11:33 PM
His one attack was at full power and Ulquiorra didn't even try to dodge. He just blocked it with two hands and wasn't hurt. Had Ichigo thrown fifty the result wouldn't have changed.


1) GJ's Cero > black GT link (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-280/bleach-ch280-11.png_1050.jpg)

2) If unreleased Ulquiorra had to use both hands to block black GT then released GJ had to use only one arm and without being pushed back. Links big black GT (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-281/bleach-ch281-18.png_1050.jpg) and GJ's bolck (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-281/bleach-ch281-19.png_1050.jpg)

GT is NOT Ichigo's strongest attack and that is the point otherwised IChgo would've not been able to beat GJ.





Ulquiorra wasn't hurt at all, and both fired only one cero each. It only took the one attack for Grimmjow to get his arm burnt.

This is what you assume, and GJ fired Cero twice not just once. I have a different interpretation than you and say both Ulquiorra's arms were burnt, the left arm was burnt when GJ cero-ed it (and the black shade could be the burn) which this is why Ulquiorra used his right hand when he fired cero at GJ (and his right arm is not shown afterwards).

@ gigantor

1-That was one-armed GJ after black GT, and it's not fair comparing him to a two-armed Ulquiorra who by the way used both arms to block it and got pushed back real bad

2-Ulquiorra has a regenerative ability and if he was able to replace an eyeball then why couldn't he heal his burns?

gigantor21
April 03, 2008, 11:52 PM
1) GJ's Cero > black GT link (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-280/bleach-ch280-11.png_1050.jpg)

Ichigo didn't have the mask on when he did that, remember? He was able to block the Gran Rey Cero with the mask on. The regular Cero wouldn't have been a problem then.


2) If unreleased Ulquiorra had to use both hands to block black GT then released GJ had to use only one arm and without being pushed back. Links big black GT (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-281/bleach-ch281-18.png_1050.jpg) and GJ's bolck (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-281/bleach-ch281-19.png_1050.jpg)

As Edorad said, and every Arrancar whose release has shown us, the Ressurecion release of an Arrancar gives them an exponential boost in power. That's why Edorad went from having trouble against Ikkaku to beating the tar out of him before he used his Bankai. Grimmjow, an Espada, is subject to the same rules, just like all the other Arrancar we've seen release, so it's to be expected.



GT is NOT Ichigo's strongest attack and that is the point otherwised IChgo would've not been able to beat GJ.

Then what is? It's the only special attack he has, and it's the one he relies on more than anything else. He wouldn't have been shocked that it didn't hurt GJ much in their first fight if he had something stronger to use--and if he does, then I sure as hell haven't seen it. :p


This is what you assume, and GJ fired Cero twice not just once. I have a different interpretation than you and say both Ulquiorra's arms were burnt, the left arm was burnt when GJ cero-ed it (and the black shade could be the burn) which this is why Ulquiorra used his right hand when he fired cero at GJ (and his right arm is not shown afterwards).

See my above post.

And again, I'll reiterate: you see how we're barely even talking about Ichigo at this point? If he was really as compelling and dynamic as you make him out to be, then we wouldn't be going back and forth over how strong his attacks are. That's what I wanted to discuss, not how much stronger Ulq is than GJ. :/
[hr]

1-That was one-armed GJ after black GT, and it's not fair comparing him to a two-armed Ulquiorra who by the way used both arms to block it and got pushed back real bad

But that's all that happened. He just got pushed back while unreleased. When Grimmjow got hit unreleased, he was a bloody mess--had Ulquiorra taken the same damage to his arms, they would've been shredded the same way. That's the point I'm trying to make.


2-Ulquiorra has a regenerative ability and if he was able to replace an eyeball then why couldn't he heal his burns?

When Yammi was getting his arm reattatched, he said he wished he could regenerate his wounds like Ulquiorra's eye. If it was an ability that applied to his whole body, I'm sure he would've just said "It'd be nice if we could regenerate like you" or something. It may sound semantic, but I don't see why Kubo would be so specific there if it wasn't important--and we've had people flame each other for weeks over simple word choice (i.e. the Zaraki sword debate). :/

Silhouette
April 04, 2008, 12:14 AM
About cero> black GT
And GJ wasn't released either Link (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-280/bleach-ch280-10.png_1050.jpg)
That part of my post was to show that if unreleased GJ' cero > unmasked Ichigo, then grand ray cero is > large black GT

About large black GT not being masked Ichigo's strongest attack
Looking at how Ichigo won, his zanpakuto is his strongest attack slicing through GJ's strongest attack here (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-285/bleach-ch285-15.png_1050.jpg)and here (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-285/bleach-ch285-16.png_1050.jpg) the top it off with a bold statement from fight seeking Ichigo here (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-285/bleach-ch285-17.png_1050.jpg)
Not to mention Ichigo's maneuverability and battle skills like how Nnoitra commented on Ichigo being used to fighting against long weapons.
About Ulquiorr's arm
Please read my previous post, I edited for you


But to bring things back on topic, this is exactly what I'm talking about. We've been going back and forth about Ichigo's opponents, and his powers, but not Ichigo himself. I find him much more interesting as a fighter than I do as a character--which shouldn't be the case for THE MAIN CHARACTER. That's what bothers me about him.

Well the topic was about his development and we focused on the development in his power and we did post about his character. Otherwise I don't know mate, what do you define as character development. Perhaps you can use examples from other shounens? As as I know Naruto is still the same ramen loving goof who wants to save Sasuke (may they both not be saved) and Luffy is still the ambitious meat loving-pirate.

Edit:


I
But that's all that happened. He just got pushed back while unreleased. When Grimmjow got hit unreleased, he was a bloody mess--had Ulquiorra taken the same damage to his arms, they would've been shredded the same way. That's the point I'm trying to make.


Not sure about that, I mean why block it with his hands if it wasn't going to hurt him then?


I
When Yammi was getting his arm reattatched, he said he wished he could regenerate his wounds like Ulquiorra's eye. If it was an ability that applied to his whole body, I'm sure he would've just said "It'd be nice if we could regenerate like you" or something. It may sound semantic, but I don't see why Kubo would be so specific there if it wasn't important--and we've had people flame each other for weeks over simple word choice (i.e. the Zaraki sword debate). :/

lol gigantor, come on buddy you're saying Ulquiorra can regenerate his eyes only? Well that would be a first!! An Espada who can regenrate one part of his body only. Yammi is a dumbass don't take his words literally. There's also a chance of mistranslation, Yaami could've mean" I wish I can regenrate my lost arm like Ulquiorra regenerates his lost eye" which means Ulquiorra can regenrate his lost body parts nonthless.

someguy0830
April 04, 2008, 01:32 AM
1) GJ's Cero > black GT link (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-280/bleach-ch280-11.png_1050.jpg)

2) If unreleased Ulquiorra had to use both hands to block black GT then released GJ had to use only one arm and without being pushed back. Links big black GT (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-281/bleach-ch281-18.png_1050.jpg) and GJ's bolck (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-281/bleach-ch281-19.png_1050.jpg)

GT is NOT Ichigo's strongest attack and that is the point otherwised IChgo would've not been able to beat GJ.You conveniently forget to point several key facts.

To point one, he's not wearing a mask. Instant depowering of attack. There's no comparison.

To point two, Grimmjow is in released form, which is like bankai for hollows.

GT is Ichigo's strongest attack. Hell, it's his only attack, and Ulquiorra blocked it uninjured.


This is what you assume, and GJ fired Cero twice not just once. I have a different interpretation than you and say both Ulquiorra's arms were burnt, the left arm was burnt when GJ cero-ed it (and the black shade could be the burn) which this is why Ulquiorra used his right hand when he fired cero at GJ (and his right arm is not shown afterwards).

@ gigantor

1-That was one-armed GJ after black GT, and it's not fair comparing him to a two-armed Ulquiorra who by the way used both arms to block it and got pushed back real bad

2-Ulquiorra has a regenerative ability and if he was able to replace an eyeball then why couldn't he heal his burns?This is not what I assume. It's simple fact. Show me cero two and I'll change my tune. As for the burns, show me those too. All I see is some ragged clothing and perfectly healthy, albeit pale skin. Gigantor's got pictures proving you wrong. The anime's even clearer about it. You can see both his hands: not a scratch. His clothing's also repaired, but that's just a style thing. He wasn't hurt, Grimmjow was. There's no two ways about it.

Edit: damn, I just can't keep up with this. Too much to shift through. Just one more thing. Ichigo's sword is not an attack. Sorry to say this, but that's just stupid. It's a weapon. Of course it'll be more resilient than the energy blast it fires, but that means nothing where doing damage is concerned.

Edit 2: Hell, might as well comment on the actual topic. Part of the problem with Ichigo stems from this whole arc. Kubo's sorta written himself into a corner where growth is concerned since resting is pretty much out of the question. However, I have hope that once they leave, Aizen will already have the key and actual development will need to follow.

Silhouette
April 04, 2008, 02:07 AM
1- Already answered your points in my previous post but I guess you already read it. It doesn't matter that GJ easily deflected large black GT when he was released, the point is he still did which means if it was masked Ichigo's strongest attack then he would've not been able to beat released GJ.

2- 1st cero (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-278/bleach-ch278-09.png_1050.jpg) and second cero (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-278/bleach-ch278-11.png_1050.jpg)

I hope you change your tune like promised. We're just having a discussion not a fight over who's right or wrong.


Ichigo's sword is not an attack. Sorry to say this, but that's just stupid. It's a weapon. Of course it'll be more resilient than the energy blast it fires, but that means nothing where doing damage is concerned.

Bro, Ichigo cut GJ and his last most powerful attack with his sword (check link in previous post), based on what are you saying it means nothing where doing damage is concerned?

someguy0830
April 04, 2008, 03:25 AM
1- Already answered your points in my previous post but I guess you already read it. It doesn't matter that GJ easily deflected large black GT when he was released, the point is he still did which means if it was masked Ichigo's strongest attack then he would've not been able to beat released GJ.

2- 1st cero (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-278/bleach-ch278-09.png_1050.jpg) and second cero (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/cache/Bleach-Chapter-278/bleach-ch278-11.png_1050.jpg)

I hope you change your tune like promised. We're just having a discussion not a fight over who's right or wrong.

Bro, Ichigo cut GJ and his last most powerful attack with his sword (check link in previous post), based on what are you saying it means nothing where doing damage is concerned?That second cero is not Grimmjow's, it's Ulquiorra's. Grimmjow's just blocking it. Even if it were Grimmjow's, it would only reinforce the point that Grimmjow only harmed himself. As for Grimmjow's block, yes, it does make all the difference. Just because you want to ignore it does not mean it goes away. Hollows become exponentially stronger when in released form. Grimmjow had to boost his power five or ten times to do what Ulquiorra did in his normal form. Like it or not, that is significant.

As for his sword, parrying/breaking Grimmjow's attack doesn't make Ichigo's sword an attack. It's just that the weapon is a better alternative to firing energy blasts at close range. Claiming that it must surpass the GT simply because it defeated Grimmjow's strongest attack is silly.

Here's an analogy. Say you give a guy a crossbow and a quiver full of exploding arrows. Then you tell that guy to destroy a moving target steadily approaching him. Assume he misses right up until the point where the target is in front of his face. Obviously he's not going to keep shooting, unless he has a death wish. He'll just club the thing. Does that make the crossbow automatically better than the arrows? No. It just means that sometimes the weapon is easier to use by itself than firing from long range constantly. Granted, this doesn't work too well when Ichigo's swinging around a sword, but the point is you're trying to make out his weapon to be an attack, when its simply the source of his power.

However, you are correct about one thing. Simply being able to defeat Ichigo's strongest attack doesn't quite prove how hopeless things are. So, to further elaborate, let's look at the sword itself. Ichigo was still able to cut released form Grimmjow, so that lends to his advantage. Against Ulquiorra, albeit without the mask on, he couldn't even scratch him with a direct stab in the chest, which Ulquiorra didn't even block no less. If you want a reason why he can't win, there you have it. With the mask on, Ichigo can at most barely harm an arrancar whose strength is a fifth of what it could potentially be.

Silhouette
April 04, 2008, 04:36 AM
That second cero is not Grimmjow's, it's Ulquiorra's. Grimmjow's just blocking it. Even if it were Grimmjow's, it would only reinforce the point that Grimmjow only harmed himself. As for Grimmjow's block, yes, it does make all the difference. Just because you want to ignore it does not mean it goes away. Hollows become exponentially stronger when in released form. Grimmjow had to boost his power five or ten times to do what Ulquiorra did in his normal form. Like it or not, that is significant.

That's one promise you didn't keep mate but when the hell did I say it makes no difference in GJ's power whether he was released or not? I wasn't ignore it, I simply say it is not the point because either way huge black GT was deflected.
It's ridiculous how you misinterpret what I posted two or three times already only to admit that the logic is true as you said below


However, you are correct about one thing. Simply being able to defeat Ichigo's strongest attack doesn't quite prove how hopeless things are.
---------------------------------

I don't see the point of you analogy, Ichigo cut GJ's claws and GJ with his sword that's it. Whatever analogy you have or whatever anyone one else interprets Zanpakutos' powers, Ichigo CUT GJ with HIS SWORD. and it's really silly saying that cutting one with a zanpakuto is not an attack.



So, to further elaborate, let's look at the sword itself. Ichigo was still able to cut released form Grimmjow, so that lends to his advantage. Against Ulquiorra , albeit without the mask on, he couldn't even scratch him with a direct stab in the chest, which Ulquiorra didn't even block no less. If you want a reason why he can't win, there you have it.With the mask on, Ichigo can at most barely harm an arrancar whose strength is a fifth of what it could potentially be.
So you are you saying that Ichigo was sable to cut a released espada with the mask on but this is also why he can barely cut unreleased arrancar? that's too confusing mate lol

someguy0830
April 04, 2008, 04:28 PM
Yeah, it was late and I couldn't quite think straight. As for the promise thing, I didn't honor it because you didn't prove anything. You say Grimmjow fired two ceros but he didn't. He fires one and blocks one. After just those two attacks traded, Grimmjow comes out with a messed up arm without having harmed his opponent.

As for the strength comparisons, I don't get why you're trying so hard to ignore the gap. It's mind-boggling. Ulquiorra is stronger than Grimmjow. It's as plain as day. When Grimmjow tried to block the GT in hishormal form, he got messed up, both with and without mask, albeit lesser in the latter case. Ulquiorra blocks the masked GT with two hands and only singes his clothes. It's a simple matter of power. If Ichigo strongest attack couldn't harm Ulquiorra, then the sword itself is unlikely to be able to cut him. However, assumng Ichigo manages to pull out the resolve to cut, Ulquiorra can still release his sword and become five times stronger. Ichigo can't win against that.

Neuroff
April 04, 2008, 06:44 PM
Yeah, it was late and I couldn't quite think straight. As for the promise thing, I didn't honor it because you didn't prove anything. You say Grimmjow fired two ceros but he didn't. He fires one and blocks one. After just those two attacks traded, Grimmjow comes out with a messed up arm without having harmed his opponent.
Ceros are blocked with cero. Grimmjow fired two.

Franckie
April 04, 2008, 06:53 PM
What do you guys think?

What I think? Ichigo has been Captain Pointless ever since the fight with Byakuya. Whenever Ichigo isn't around I seem to enjoy Bleach more than what I usually do. Still, I'm still open to Ichigo, but that's entirely dependent upon how Kubo handles things such as Ichigo's future confrontation with Ulquiorra.

gigantor21
April 04, 2008, 07:15 PM
What I think? Ichigo has been Captain Pointless ever since the fight with Byakuya. Whenever Ichigo isn't around I seem to enjoy Bleach more than what I usually do. Still, I'm still open to Ichigo, but that's entirely dependent upon how Kubo handles things such as Ichigo's future confrontation with Ulquiorra.


Agreed. Bland as he's been, he at least had a solid directive in that Arc. He wasn't just the white knight beating down the black devils, but someone fighting against a rigid and intangible ideology. He had no personal issue with Byakuya, or any of the Shinigami, and the vast majority of them weren't even bad. So he brought more to the arc than just wanting to save the girl and fight the baddies.

My problem with him is that he adds nothing to the story without that higher goal. That's why I was glad to see Byakuya, Unohana and Zaraki, even though they just fought and made random expository comments. Ichigo doesn't have that kind of likeability.

Also, thank you for moving things along. :p

someguy0830
April 04, 2008, 07:25 PM
Ceros are blocked with cero. Grimmjow fired two.Ulquiorra deflected the first barehanded, and while I thought the same thing about Grimmjow the first time I saw the scene:
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2551/ulqcerout8.th.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ulqcerout8.jpg)
He clearly didn't fire anything back.

Silhouette
April 05, 2008, 12:50 AM
I hope you didn't open this thread to bash Ichigo, gigantor!

It basically started out as a:
1)Let's share our hate for Ichigo
2) I will be pissed if Ichigo wins agsinst Ulquiorra which will eventually turn into " Let's bash bleach and its author"

When talking about Ichigo's power development (Which is a PART of the TOPIC)
People who thought Ulquiorra will win and based their argument on two things:
1- Big black GT is Ichigo's strongest attack
2-Ulquiorra fended it off without being hurt

I proved such claim to be false for released GJ also fended off huge black GT with what looked like very little efforts, yet Ichigo won because big black GT is not masked-Ichigo's only triumph card, he has battled and won using sword, maneuverability, speed, strength and the his desire to beat the espadas.

@ someguy: I don't get what your trying to so desperately prove, I didn't say unreleased GJ = released GJ nor I said GJ > Ulquiorra.

I will retire from this thread since I made my point clear. For those who don't like Ichigo, that's your personal opinion and it's absolutely fine, but it's not fair to start bashing characters when Ichigo holds his grounds against Ulquiorra for your assumptions have been proven to be inaccurate.

Sarmad
April 05, 2008, 09:55 AM
Well considering the fact that Ichigo's only duties up until now were to protect and rescue it's really hard to achieve or rather create a complex character with depth ^^

We'll have to actually wait until Ichigo gets away from Hueco Mundo or will be released from this state of constant danger. Then he will at least able to develope as a character.

And I believe that'll happen for sure, since he has got so much potential as a character! I mean, look at him ... he is clueless when it comes to what is actually going on!
I guess that his character will experience true change when he has finally got a minute to breathe and time to ask questions that need to be asked :)

gigantor21
April 05, 2008, 11:19 AM
Silhouette, I can fully understand if people like Ichigo. In fact, I WANT to hear more from them. But if they do show up, I want to talk about Ichigo as a character, not how strong his opponents are--the only reason I kept going on abou GJ and Ulq is because you weren't getting what I was saying. His being able to beat Ulquiorra or not doesn't make him a good protagonist. :/

Sarmad - I agree, but it doesn't look like he'll get a chance to leave before the series ends--or if he does, it'll be for more fighting. I expected that he and his friends would get to leave, and he'd be able to train while resolving things with Tatsuki and Co, along with his family. But considering that most of them have been put to sleep, it looks like he won't get that chance. I hope he does.

weixiaobao
April 05, 2008, 09:08 PM
first off :rofl for no particular reason....

Ichigo was great as a character in the first few volumes and i believe as his peak as a character was during the battle again Kenpachi.. After that his inner hollow started to appear and when he dominate his hollow he become all arrogance...

my favorite ichigo's moment were:
-during the battle again Grand Fisher
-fight side by side with Ishida

And right now somehow i got the feeling he become more and more like naruto (who kishimoto intended to be stupid as a stereo type of hero, while ichigo was suppose to be a punk)

Silhouette
April 05, 2008, 10:09 PM
I want to talk about Ichigo as a character, not how strong his opponents are--the only reason I kept going on abou GJ and Ulq is because you weren't getting what I was saying. His being able to beat Ulquiorra or not doesn't make him a good protagonist. :/


Can you perhaps explain what you mean by character development? Are you talking about his personality? his goals?

As far as personality, it changed 3 times after 3 major events:
1- From mama's boy to a punk (after GF incident)
2-From a punk to a hero who fights to protect his friends (after meeting Rukia and becoming a shinigami).
3-From a hero who fights to protect his friends to a BOLD vizard who wants to triumph over his strong(er) enemies (after his duel with his hollow which became VERY OBVIOUS in his fight with GJ).

Goals?
The main protagonist should be the most ambitious and aim highest. However, Having Ichigo aiming for a captain position, the title of Kenpachi, ruler of HM or even SS king would be something unreasonable because Ichigo already has a life on Earth.

You're saying I don't get your point even though I HAVE ASKED you to elaborate before, so AGAIN, please be kind enough as to share your bases of comparison from other shounens that lead you to the conclude Ichigo is lacking character development.


first off :rofl for no particular reason....


The most honest answer yet


Edit:
Kubo's storytelling does not include a third character that watches events and explains things to someone next to him (the audience really !!) this is why when reading bleach, readers have to look at the art not just read the bubbles. And it rarely it includes inserted boxes that leads readers into believing certain things that the author wants you to believe. However, everything can be put together in one chapter later and until then readers have to keep guessing.

patedecarne
April 06, 2008, 07:39 PM
Let's take chapter 315, for example: Ichigo, in the previous battles, was kind of "afraid" to fight, maybe his reason to fight wasn't strong enough; then he fought against Grimmjow, and Orihime was just behind him; then he found a reason to fight for;

but look at now: Orihime was taken again, everything that Ichigo done in HM arc was useless, in his mind; he knows that the time to the total destruction is getting closer, and Orihime is in the 5ยบ tower; Ichigo is going to to rescue Orihime one more time, and this time he's alone in his task; Ichigo cannot fail this time, and in order to fulfill this objective, he'll fight with everything, without fear, That I'm sure;

To me, this event is developing Ichigo greatly, and he won't fight against Ulquiorra with random powers; he'll use everything, and eventually will find out a new power, a power that will allow him to fight equally against Ulquiorra, just to complete his development now...

If in the beginning of Arrancar saga Ichigo wasn't a great character, now , I believe, the thing will change, and we'll see some surprises about Ichigo...

KyleUchiha
April 08, 2008, 10:43 AM
Actually, I don't find Ichigo to be a bland character at all. In fact he is my favorite character in Bleach, and I'm always looking forward to his battles.

I do agree that he has been getting slow character development in the Hueco Mundo Arc, mainly because the arc felt like to me that Kubo was dragging it out, and he was focusing so much on other characters(particularly the Espada), trying to make them interesting that I believe Ichigo's character suffered.

I think Kubo was slowing Ichigo's development somewhat in the latest arcs because he wants to save Ichigo's more dramatic character changes for the arcs that will be more important to the story.

For example, Ichigo has yet to find out about his father being a former Shinigami, and I imagine when Ichigo finds that out and discusses his father's past, it will have an enormous affect on his character and we will see more changes in him than just always saving damsel in distress character development.

KageBushinNoJutsu
August 28, 2008, 03:09 AM
Okay so like, im totally a big fan of Ichigo, i even dyed my hair orange and spiked it up and all of that, i've been to a bunch of anime conventions and a lot of people were like "WOAH IS THAT YOUR REAL HAIR?" and i just say "Damn right because im ICHIGO KUROSAKIIIII!", but they just laugh, i dont know why :oh

Okay so anyways, I was wondering if any of you thought his hair got kind of old, i mean like its been 3-4 seasons and 2 fillers and his hair is always the same, i dont think there was a single moment where his hair wasn't orange and spikey.

I was wondering if any of you could like post a picture of him nude..sorry i mean with hair that wasnt spikey :darn

KK LOVE KAGEEEE BUSHINNNNNNN NO JUTSUUUUUU!!!1!!!

PS I'm a girl hehehe :amuse

EDIT:

Imagine ICIGO WITH GOKU'S HAIR?!?!

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/98/awesomeoc6.jpg

That would be SO FUNNY HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAA

Eddy01741
August 28, 2008, 09:08 AM
WHat is the point of this topic? I mean seriously, what is it?

If Ichigo hair is getting old, go dye it purple and call yourself shiba kaien or hisagi shuhei.

Yans86
August 28, 2008, 04:53 PM
I hope that the top 3 espadas won`t be beaten by any captain or all the "Ichigo reiatsu captain level super bankai ecc..."+"vaizard move and power" will be pointless...cause if he need all his vaizard power to beat Ulquiorra,the other captains can be only stronger than him in vizard mode to beat the top 3,but really strong as hell,so his power are going to be meaningless..

En Yang Ji
August 28, 2008, 08:20 PM
I hope that the top 3 espadas won`t be beaten by any captain or all the "Ichigo reiatsu captain level super bankai ecc..."+"vaizard move and power" will be pointless...cause if he need all his vaizard power to beat Ulquiorra,the other captains can be only stronger than him in vizard mode to beat the top 3,but really strong as hell,so his power are going to be meaningless..

That depends on how the battles go. With all of his vizard powers, there's a chance Ichigo might beat Ulquiorra easily. There's also the possiblity that the top 3 espada are beaten by teams, rather than individual captains.

Yans86
August 28, 2008, 09:47 PM
Ichigo beaten Ulquiorra easily???we need a miracle :-D!!!last time Ulquiorra stopped all his move and he didn`t use the world and he didn`t even release....

shoe
August 28, 2008, 10:34 PM
honestly, I dislike ichigo as a protagonist.

I find him boring and overhyped, and I care very little about what happens to him. Part of this is simply because he gets an obscene amount of mid-battle powerups, and while some are explained, most aren't.

in his fight against renji his power suddenly spiked without explanation.
against kenpachi his zanpakto just happened to contact him at just the right time to pull it out
against byakuya his inner hollow makes an appearance
then after having a bunch of realistic and sensible fights, he again gets a random unexplained power up allowing him to hold his mask for as long as he needs it.

that sort of thing makes him seem boring and formulaic, in most major fights either he completely dominates or gets a powerup mid battle to win. This also leads to what I call "goku syndrome" in that he is really the only one who can possibly oppose, threaten or even scratch the bad guy.

From the beginning, while he was clearly stronger than his friends, at least they could do something against villains-heck ishida beat mayuri and shuunsui commented on chads power and determination, and renji could fight pretty evenly with him. but ever since Ichigo achieved bankai he kind of sped along while everybody else in his group slowed to a crawl, which leads to situations where he is the only one who can really do anything in fights anymore. if any of his friends encounter anyone who has even the slightest inkling of power only ichigo possibly save them, but since he has no real personality anymore it's not intriguing to watch him save his friends. I feel as though kubo has forsaken the rest of his group in terms of development to focus on ichigo, but he hasn't made ichigo interesting or likable, and instead of really developing his personality past the cliche "my friends are in danger, I have to drop everything and save them" and instead just made him so much farther than his friends in terms of power and ability that you wonder why he even bothers to bring them along anymore, which makes it boring and predictable.

in short it seems that kubo has sacrificed everyone else's development to focus on ichigo's, but he hasn't really developed ichigo either

Quetz
August 28, 2008, 11:39 PM
Lack of recent development has made me grow a bit tired of ichigo. New techniques or challenges would be cool, hoping ulquiorra can deliver...

Aonsaithya
September 02, 2008, 04:11 PM
Perhaps we will see some new character taking the lead role...
I can't see Ichigo ever beating Aizen. Hell, I can't see anyone ever beating Aizen, he seems to be untouchable. Ichigo's big time now is to defeat the 4th espada, which likely won't be an easy battle. The only character shown to have a lot of potential aside Ichigo (who has already reached bankai and vizard mask, yet is still not delivering) would be Kenpachi. He doesn't know the name of his sword, so he has basically his shikai's (well it's a constant release sword) special ability and bankai looming in the future, and already has a sickening reiatsu. I highly doubt we will ever see more than the name of his sword, but no bankai/mask/anything weird. Unless, say, Kenpachi hangs around Las Noches, finding the Hyogoku, then wonders what it is and touches it.

Konkun
September 02, 2008, 04:47 PM
I hope that the top 3 espadas won`t be beaten by any captain or all the "Ichigo reiatsu captain level super bankai ecc..."+"vaizard move and power" will be pointless...cause if he need all his vaizard power to beat Ulquiorra,the other captains can be only stronger than him in vizard mode to beat the top 3,but really strong as hell,so his power are going to be meaningless..

Don't forget, the Vaizards are coming to give Aizen a proper hello and thank you. Even if the captains lose to the top 3, teaming up with the Vaizards will give them an edge.

kkck
September 02, 2008, 09:35 PM
What if ichigo dies and goes to soul society to join gotei 13? I mean this as saying his human body would for some reason get destroyed.
It would be fun to see ichigo starting the shinigami academi learning kido and refining his swordmanship, shunpo (if he needs to improve it any further) and kido (ichigo is already arguably the best fighter in japan considering he is better than tatsuki who is the second so I dont think he should train in hand to hand combat). And later on become captain of an squad, hell he would be the youngest captain ever considering he is much younger than hitsugaya. Although this might not ever happen considering ichigo has hollow powers.

shoe
September 04, 2008, 04:35 PM
So, I was thinking about this earlier, and I think I figured out one of the main reasons why ichigo just seems boring and cliche as a protagonist, and it's that he doesn't have any sort of internal conflict driving his decisions.

Compared to some of the other characters in bleach, there is really nothing to motivate ichigo outside of the generic "omg, my friends are in trouble, I bettter drop everything and help them right away." that is typical of shonen manga.

Chad has his conflict of trying to uphold his promise to his grandfather
Ishida has to deal with his families bad history with the shinigami, and how he wants to help his (predominately) shinigami friends
Byakuya had to deal with the promise he made his wife and the promise he made his family
renji and rukia often have to decide between their duty as soul reapers and helping their friends
Orihime had to decide to "sacrifice" herself to save her friends

Ichigo on the other hand, has no sort of internal conflict, and this generally makes him boring and bland, as he has no real motivation for his decisions aside form shonen cliches. At least back before his vizard training he had to deal with his inner hollow, which often conflicted with and decided how he fought, but ever since he has subjugated his hollow he lost a lot of what little depth he had.