ME conflict from Israel's perspective

[miyi]

I hope this video is appropriate...


below is a link to a 10 minute video presentation from terrorismawareness.org, called "What Really Happened in the Middle East?"

To my judgment, the presentation is quite accurate and factual, although obviously it presents Israel's position only.

The video contains graphic violent images, and you must be at least 18 years old to view.


http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/


I recommend this video for its educational material.

If you wish to provide a Palestinian perspective educational material like the one above, I don't mind.


[update]

also recommend this article that accompanies the video above:

Why Israel is the Victim... - David Horrowitz (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=C1209FD3-B3D7-4282-A296-4E3AC7D0B3DE)

[weixiaobao]

well, i am not in the mood of reading long article sorry XD but i could have guess what they said in it..

Though did you see an episode in the History Channel during Easter.. where they discuss about how past Israel leaders in the bible could be intelligent military leaders..

Which let me see a new view about Jewish slavery in Egypt.. Pretty much it is the opposite of what the bible take on this.. it more like the Jewish maybe the aggressor instead of the Egyptians.. But the thing is, that it not matter what really is the truth or not the truth.. What's matter is what people choose to believe in.. Especially to these issues, people can find millions of things to support one side, and another million things to support another side..

[miyi]

well, i am not in the mood of reading long article sorry XD but i could have guess what they said in it..

Though did you see an episode in the History Channel during Easter.. where they discuss about how past Israel leaders in the bible could be intelligent military leaders..

Which let me see a new view about Jewish slavery in Egypt.. Pretty much it is the opposite of what the bible take on this.. it more like the Jewish maybe the aggressor instead of the Egyptians.. But the thing is, that it not matter what really is the truth or not the truth.. What's matter is what people choose to believe in.. Especially to these issues, people can find millions of things to support one side, and another million things to support another side..


Yes, I recognize that there are two sides to this debate. I may have made a mistake in posting this thread because I have the feeling that my intent could be easily misconstrued.

My intent is to educate about these conflicts, with the overall goal of enriching understanding in hopes of seeking out pragmatic solutions to these issues. In an attempt to provide balance, here is a less-biased summary of the Israel-Palestine issue that I highly recommend:

http://www.mideastweb.org/natureofconflict.htm

My main issue with this whole affair is not based so much on who is right or who is wrong. Both Israeli and Palestinians have committed a long list of atrocities against each other, and I would argue that they are both wrong.

Both will claim they have the right to inhabit the region based either on religious or historical evidence, but the fact of the matter is that going this route will result in both sides unwilling to make a compromise.

Instead of both of them desperately wanting to eliminate each other off, the most common sense solution is to share the land, which is what is currently happening under the US-led Israel-Palestine peace process.

I will add more to this some time later this week..

[weixiaobao]

The solution seem so simple "compromise/ peace/ sharing/ caring" and yet it could never put into practice due to "mistrust/ greed (not so much but more about self-center)/ not willing to change/ and not willing to accept that there is own fault or responsibility in a problem.."

Miyi, if you have the power to make a different, i am very interested in what is your plan ?

[miyi]

cease-fire on both sides
agree to share territory fairly
improve security, education, economy
a government designed to check and balance power
curb terrorism within region
renewed dialogue to build a sense of trust

there are lots of ways, but the key step is negotiation and a cease fire. Only with relative calm can both sides think rationally instead of raw anger and emotion.

I'll try to elaborate as I think of more.

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

The middle east is a mess, it does my head in trying to look for solutions.

[mrcongojack]

I knew about Muslim backing of Hitler, and that the Middle East as we know it has only existed since WWI, but this video put it in perspective for me.

I keep asking myself, why do leaders in the Middle East keep calling for war, genocide, and destruction? Aren't these people also religious figures? What kind of religious leader spouts on about murder?

The only conclusion I have been able to draw is that these leaders (such as the leader of Hezbollah) are not religious men. If the Pope spouted on about killing Jews, attacking countries, and other atrocities, their would be outrage the world over. By the way, that Nasrallah guy looks like a complete tool. He sits their, spouting on about how evil the west is, and yet he wears glasses - a western invention. And he's using microphones, another western invention. Without the West, this guy wouldn't even be able to read his racist diatribes. I think it's about time someone put this joker in his place.

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

there should be a palestine point of view video as well and I mean not from an extremist. The truth is both are as bad as eachother but bad on different things.

[segua]

The Zionist also supported Hilter and betrayed their own people, the Jews or those that were deemed as sacrificial lambs. For those that were part of the Zionist party, they all fed back to Israel. I could understand why the President of Iran calls for the destruction of the Zionist state. I wonder if the President of Iran would support a true Nation of Israel and not one ruled by the Zionist. Highly doubt it though. Did you know that even some Jews support the fall of the current country of Israel?

But when you debate about the claims to the land called Palestine, it gets religious. Both sides won't compromise and they won't back down until either side is dead. What they need to do is forgive each other and have one law for everyone. Again, I highly doubt it.

Also, the Roman Empire did renamed Israel, Palestine in their hatred/disgust for Israelites. But in reality, there was never such thing as a Palestine. Maybe a Canaan but not Palestine. There were a group of people called Philistines though which is the closest you could get. As far as claim goes religiously, the descendants of the ancient Israelites are entitled to that Land because God promised and then gave it to their forefathers. But the only reason, which many forget, was that the former people that lived upon that land, the Canaanites, did not obey the ordinances of God. So basically, the first tenant didn't follow the rules set forth by the land lord so he had them all wiped out and signed a new tenant contract with Israel. To my knowledge, God or Allah has not done something like that with the Muslims.

Another thing, it seems that there is some misinformation in that film. There was a Japanese Diplomat named Sugihara Chiune who gave Jews in Lithuania visas into Japan although it cost him his career once he returned back to Japan. Therefore, Japan is really the only country that I know of who really helped the Jews flee although the main body of Japan was against it. Kinda like the brain wanted to do something else but the body acted on its own lol.

In my opinion, that's all propaganda. Not all Muslims are terrorist nor all of them harbor anti-Israeli sentiments. Even those Islamic terrorist kills other Muslims and Jews. One thing that could also help especially with the people who are in these terrorist groups is to show them salvation. From the accounts that I've read of former terrorists, they were deathly afraid that they would not go into heaven and from their account, the Quran didn't gave them specific answers. That was there reasons for doing what they did. But it's clear that they were unstable men or women.

[miyi]

In my opinion, that's all propaganda. Not all Muslims are terrorist nor all of them harbor anti-Israeli sentiments.

And I agree with you, it's what I have said all along, you can even argue that I'm a Muslim apologist, just visit the religious discussion thread.

But politically though, here's my analysis on this whole Middle East fiasco:

After the fall of the Ottoman Empire, British, France, Soviet, and later the USA, all preyed on a struggling Middle East (who all along were struggling for an identity; the Ottoman regime that ruled their realm for 400 years are now replaced by foreign, non-Muslim superpowers).

The conflict of interest between Britain, France, Soviet, USA, over the Middle East region, how they competed for control of that region to protect their self interests, now have backfired.

This was also a root cause of Arab-Israeli hatred that prior to these foreign interventions, did not exist to the extent that they now exist.

Britain's betrayal of so many agreements (they betrayed France, the Arabs, and the Jews) will pit Arab and Jews against each other for the better part of the 20th century, continuing up to this day.

There's a history of anti-semitism in Europe prior to the Jewish immigration into Palestine in post WWI.

In fact, anti-semitism dated as far back as ancient Greeks and Roman days, maybe even before that.

Around late 1800s, there was tension in France and a guy named Dreyfus was convicted of crime that many believed was because he was used as a scapegoat and because he was Jew.

This guy named Theodore Hertzl, a Jewish journalist, realized that Jewish people will never feel comfortable, because they will always be persecuted against (which they have been for over a millenium), unless they have a homeland of their own.

First, this Zionist aspirations was not specific to Palestine (in fact, at first they debated whether they should immigrate to Uganda, but that was rejected).

Palestine was the chosen location, which makes historical sense (every Hannukah, Jews would utter "in Jerusalem").

Jews have a sense of belonging in Jerusalem that is emotional as well as religious (and historical).

But like I said, due to Britain's policies of betrayal and mistakes, they made Arabs angry, France angry, and later even the Jews angry (indeed, there were Jewish terrorism, i.e. Irgun).

Jews historically were spread all over, and during Ottoman rule, I believe more Arabs lived in Palestine as there were Jews (I'm not sure about this though).

But when finally the Balfour Declaration was established and the League of Nations gave Britain the authority to fulfill it's obligation to create a State of Israel for the Jews, immigration towards Palestine started flowing.

Naturally, Arabs had a negative reaction towards this (and I recognize this; much like Native Americans were cheated for their land, so too were the Arabs who had to share space with their new neighbors, the Jewish).

Then there was commisions sent forth by Britain to study why there is conflicts. First, there was the Peel Commision, which concluded that the current British mandate cannot work due to irreconcilable differences between Jews and Arabs. So they've advised that they need to forcefully relocate Arabs into Jordan.

Another commision called Shaw, concluded differently, it says that Arabs are losing in this deal....Britain is advised to halt the Jewish immigration...Jewish, this time, reacted negatively, and they even commited terrorism towards Britain and Arabs (i.e. King David Hotel bombings).

Violence escalated, Arab Israeli wars continued for decades, and still to this day. Hatred and distrust for each other has grown as a result.

Before, Arabs and Jews lived in relative peace, but it was only in the 20th century where the tension between them rose to dramatic levels.

For the Arabs, it is a matter of self-identity; under the Ottomans, they formerly ruled most of the Middle East, including Palestine, and they feel it's their land. That's understandable....I mean, I can understand that Arabs lived there for generations after generations.

For the Jews, it was also an identity thing.....they will never feel comfortable unless and they'll never be accepted by the world community unless they have a home of their own, and now they've gotten what they've wanted in Israel.

And for us outsiders, we only treat this so simplistically and politically, and we don't really grasp the complexity of it, the hatred and distrust, on a very personal level.

What's worse, the Arab regimes everywhere (I believe there's about 21 of them), use anti-Zionist propoganda as a way to re-direct their people's resentments somewhere else; in other words, they will use fear-mongering as a domestic policy tool and will use Israel as a scapegoat for all their country's problems.

In order for anti-Zionism to go away, and all the hatred, we need to remove this propoganda-spreading regimes, or at least pressure them to change their policies. Terrorism is not helping the situation either (actually making matters worse).

We need to persuade the Arab communities that we are not against Islam, in fact, that is the most counter-productive approach, and one I simply disagree with.

Islam and democracy can work.....just look at Western democracies....there is religious toleration. It can work.

The challenge is whether Muslims are willing to accommodate democratic systems, and rise up against terrorism.


there should be a palestine point of view video as well and I mean not from an extremist. The truth is both are as bad as eachother but bad on different things.

Please, go ahead...I can't find one at the moment.

[thsv]

Funnily enough this is one of the few topics i agree with miyi on. People demanding Israel give back the Occupied Territories forget that Israel won them after being attacked by their neighbours in 1967. If they didn't have genuine corcerns about Syria's wish to wipe them off the face of the planet they might hand them back. Remember the Golan Heights provides a large chunk of Israel's water whilst the West Bank was used to launch rocket attacks against them before 1967. As for the Gaza Strip, they'd have to pay someone to take it off their hands.

Oh, before I sign off, if Muslims are such good brothers, why has Egypt shut its border with Gaza?

[Baron Hugenstein]

The Zionist also supported Hilter and betrayed their own people, the Jews or those that were deemed as sacrificial lambs. For those that were part of the Zionist party, they all fed back to Israel. I could understand why the President of Iran calls for the destruction of the Zionist state. I wonder if the President of Iran would support a true Nation of Israel and not one ruled by the Zionist. Highly doubt it though. Did you know that even some Jews support the fall of the current country of Israel?

But when you debate about the claims to the land called Palestine, it gets religious. Both sides won't compromise and they won't back down until either side is dead. What they need to do is forgive each other and have one law for everyone. Again, I highly doubt it.

Also, the Roman Empire did renamed Israel, Palestine in their hatred/disgust for Israelites. But in reality, there was never such thing as a Palestine. Maybe a Canaan but not Palestine. There were a group of people called Philistines though which is the closest you could get. As far as claim goes religiously, the descendants of the ancient Israelites are entitled to that Land because God promised and then gave it to their forefathers. But the only reason, which many forget, was that the former people that lived upon that land, the Canaanites, did not obey the ordinances of God. So basically, the first tenant didn't follow the rules set forth by the land lord so he had them all wiped out and signed a new tenant contract with Israel. To my knowledge, God or Allah has not done something like that with the Muslims.

Another thing, it seems that there is some misinformation in that film. There was a Japanese Diplomat named Sugihara Chiune who gave Jews in Lithuania visas into Japan although it cost him his career once he returned back to Japan. Therefore, Japan is really the only country that I know of who really helped the Jews flee although the main body of Japan was against it. Kinda like the brain wanted to do something else but the body acted on its own lol.

In my opinion, that's all propaganda. Not all Muslims are terrorist nor all of them harbor anti-Israeli sentiments. Even those Islamic terrorist kills other Muslims and Jews. One thing that could also help especially with the people who are in these terrorist groups is to show them salvation. From the accounts that I've read of former terrorists, they were deathly afraid that they would not go into heaven and from their account, the Quran didn't gave them specific answers. That was there reasons for doing what they did. But it's clear that they were unstable men or women.

Historically, there was never any countries there until the end of the Great war, WWI, and the implication of the divide-and-conquer strategy by France and Britain after that they have taken most territories from the weakened and old Ottoman empire. During the rule of the Arabs and the Ottomans, The region was called Bilad al Sham(land of the left hand) and it included Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and what's Israel and Palestine right now.

Before that by a very long, even before the roman empire, or even the greek. the Canaan civilization, along with the Phoenician inhibited the land, the Canaan lived in middle and southern ares of Palestine/Israel while the Phoenician inhibited the area where Lebanon and Syria are now. However, they aren't tied to any Arab or Jewish of modern or old times.

About the video given by miyi, it is merely propaganda by the Israeli side, and there are some done by Palestinians as well, but they don't really say what is really happening there.

I lived in the west bank for 15 years, before coming to Montreal. Both sides try to sugar-coat the situation and to say that they are the rightful owner of the land. The Israeli say it is their promised land and the Palestinians say that they lived there for a long time. As a Palestinian, i support my side, yet i don't condone some of the actions done.
IMO, As Segua said, both should live together in peace, but after all that was done by either side, the countless massacres everywhere, there is a very slight possible way to forgive and forget.

[ITACHIWIFE]

why can't we be friends

[redcometfm]

Because the world's a cruel, stupid place.

[Baron Hugenstein]

^ Couldn't have said it better:amuse

The world is just a really tricky and hard place to live in....
[hr]

why can't we be friends

Even though it sounds very very very simple in theory, it is very complicated in real life, i guess it can be attributed to human nature

Although, i wouldn't mind that:amuse