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kirimi
April 04, 2008, 09:00 AM
The countdown continues with the newly released ch -107! Get it HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28644).

Discuss what happens and predict the next chapter here!

Alexis
April 04, 2008, 09:13 AM
Oh, I was like... why is this topic empty? I guess the chapter got released not too long ago.

Well it's great to see Yoruichi acting like a sempai to Urahara. I always thought they were always more on equal terms, but it seems she became a Captain before he did. "Little Byakuya" is standing behind them as a Vice captain. How cute. lol

Tsukisama
April 04, 2008, 09:16 AM
The old captain (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/317/08/) is definitely not the same guy from Rukia's adoption, apparent from the close-up we now have.

It was a good chapter. I wonder what it was that Hirako tore away that Aizen was using to conceal himself. Do you think that it was some sort of kidou or an early (perhaps not yet perfected) version of Aizen's shikai? I am going to guess it was just kidou or something, but it would be interesting if this meant that Shinji had some way of seeing through Aizen's illusions.

earen
April 04, 2008, 09:31 AM
Weird, Urahara has a pretty soft face compared to his balls.

I guess we won't be getting back to "present" situation anytime soon, but I like to history well enough.

Schabrak
April 04, 2008, 09:33 AM
Oh how cute of Hiyori to get hurt after hitting Urahara in his ****. XD *wants more of her cute side"XD and an scanlation^^

Richo
April 04, 2008, 09:38 AM
It was a good chapter. I wonder what it was that Hirako tore away that Aizen was using to conceal himself. Do you think that it was some sort of kidou or an early (perhaps not yet perfected) version of Aizen's shikai? I am going to guess it was just kidou or something, but it would be interesting if this meant that Shinji had some way of seeing through Aizen's illusions.

this wasnt aizen his shikai i am quite sure off it, my gues would be that aizen already back then was experimenting with the dimensions (like the one he gave the espada to lock in their privaron). It is shown in the picture that shinji ripped open the air itself to another dimension where aizen stepped out of, this is similair to the chapter where ulquirora stepped out the dimension he was locked in.

Pirulito
April 04, 2008, 09:39 AM
Urahara have a very, very hard thing between legs. kishishishi

I still don´t believe that Kubo made this relation between Shinji and Aizen. Every time I see them, I feel tension.

Tsukisama
April 04, 2008, 09:48 AM
this wasnt aizen his shikai i am quite sure off it, my gues would be that aizen already back then was experimenting with the dimensions (like the one he gave the espada to lock in their privaron). It is shown in the picture that shinji ripped open the air itself to another dimension where aizen stepped out of, this is similair to the chapter where ulquirora stepped out the dimension he was locked in.

An alternate dimension? That is a good idea. I like that better than the kidou camouflage idea or even the zanpakutou notion.

conn-man
April 04, 2008, 09:52 AM
all of those ideas sound plausible, but whatever it was shinji seemed to have alot of knowledge of it if he was able to rip it away like that.

and does anyone else think hiyori really doesnt seem like vice capt material?

Schabrak
April 04, 2008, 09:52 AM
hm so there was a scanlation XD

So Urahara was 3rd seat of the 2nd squad, what explains his relation to Yorouchi. And Aizen hides in some way, what seem to be some kind of his shikai. Urahara shows his scientist side and we will see another "dimension" next chapter?:D

Richo
April 04, 2008, 10:06 AM
all of those ideas sound plausible, but whatever it was shinji seemed to have alot of knowledge of it if he was able to rip it away like that.

and does anyone else think hiyori really doesnt seem like vice capt material?

well i dont know what to make off her, if she was any less then a vice captain she would have been killed a long time ago by the captain (she is annoying). To the point i enjoyed the part where she kicked urahara and he did just stand there like nothing happend.

wooticus
April 04, 2008, 10:08 AM
1. wonder to what this kirio person was promoted.. perhaps the secret division..

and well there were 9 captains standing around + urahara + yama = 11. kenpachi isnt included seems to mean that "everyones here" doesnt mean kenpachi^^
so whats with the last squad? there are 13 aren't there?

i think isshin will be captain either of the 0th squad, the one that isnt in this chapter or he was kenpachis presuccesor.. at least he has this special kind of armor on his shoulder


ps: wow shinji seems to be real badass strong and doesnt get owned by aizen that easily, i think they will fight against each other...



wonder how it will be when vizard and the captains meet again

Travis
April 04, 2008, 10:18 AM
Did Hirako break Aizen's hypnosis or something? It looked like he pulled down some fake scenery that was covering Aizen up. That's freaking amazing if he did.

NM Richo makes a good point on what that probably was. If it was Aizen's hypnosis, since we don't know what that would like being broken, then that would be crazy, in a good way.

RadicalEd
April 04, 2008, 10:18 AM
I loooove the way Shinji destroyed illusion of Aizen!! It was awesome!!!

Travis
April 04, 2008, 10:23 AM
Weird, Urahara has a pretty soft face compared to his balls.

I guess we won't be getting back to "present" situation anytime soon, but I like to history well enough.

I'm guessing he has a lot of reiatsu built up there. :D :p
[hr]

all of those ideas sound plausible, but whatever it was shinji seemed to have alot of knowledge of it if he was able to rip it away like that.

and does anyone else think hiyori really doesnt seem like vice capt material?

Yeah Hiyori is pretty annoying.


Another thing I'm curious about, is if they filled 12th division so quickly in a week, then why hasn't 10th division been filled?

RadicalEd
April 04, 2008, 10:27 AM
Another thing I'm curious about, is if they filled 12th division so quickly in a week, then why hasn't 10th division been filled?
maybe because in Urahara's case, they knew where is previous captain, but they don't know exactly what's happened to the 10th captain

natli
April 04, 2008, 10:27 AM
I'm enjoying this backstory far more than the present events. As it's been said a few times, Urahara had to have a hand in creating Vizards. And it's really nice that Yoruichi has been confirmed as 2nd division captain. Soi Fong had to be her vice-captain.

Alexis
April 04, 2008, 10:36 AM
I loooove the way Shinji destroyed illusion of Aizen!! It was awesome!!!
Where was this? I don't see it anywhere in my chapter...

RadicalEd
April 04, 2008, 10:45 AM
Where was this? I don't see it anywhere in my chapter...

there it is. i think this is not finished version of Aizen's shikai, or maybe it's just kido
http://i020.radikal.ru/0804/82/988dd2fdbac0t.jpg (http://radikal.ru/F/i020.radikal.ru/0804/82/988dd2fdbac0.jpg.html)

Cyrus Nightshade
April 04, 2008, 10:45 AM
Where was this? I don't see it anywhere in my chapter...


The Raw on here is missing a page, but there is a scanlation up on Onemanga already.

CheckMate
April 04, 2008, 11:01 AM
I loooove the way Shinji destroyed illusion of Aizen!! It was awesome!!!

HOw? Where do you get the scanlation/traslation in English?

Schabrak
April 04, 2008, 11:15 AM
Here: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/317/ ?^^ There is the chapter, but please look into the RTS board next time, before asking such question again.

@natli: no Soi Fong till now. :D Let's hope to see her addiction to Yurouchi some time in the next chapters.

TheChosenOne
April 04, 2008, 11:15 AM
HOw? Where do you get the scanlation/traslation in English?

Go to onemanga (http://onemanga.com/Bleach/317/01/). Another great chapter, Urahara being focused was wonderful, great to see him being quirky. Was surprising that he was under Yoruichi, which only furthers Yoruichi, plus Urahara could also have a lot of those secret shunpo moves. Wonder what Aizen used to conceal himself, but was awesome to see Shinji just break it. Can't wait for the next chapter, really wanna know what this maggots nest is. :)

Alexis
April 04, 2008, 11:16 AM
there it is. i think this is not finished version of Aizen's shikai, or maybe it's just kido
http://i020.radikal.ru/0804/82/988dd2fdbac0t.jpg (http://radikal.ru/F/i020.radikal.ru/0804/82/988dd2fdbac0.jpg.html)
Thanks. It was indeed missing in my chapter. I'll check it out on onemanga as Cyrus Nightshade suggested.

Streifen
April 04, 2008, 11:20 AM
this chapter was cool... hirako and urahara are both funny but friggin cool when they become serious... i love the way urahara looks with his big robe and the goofy face....

llmcduff
April 04, 2008, 11:46 AM
I loooove the way Shinji destroyed illusion of Aizen!! It was awesome!!!

We don't know if this is an illusion (Aizen using his shikai) or is it through some other method. Nevertheless, it was nice!

What's interesting is how Aizen became so strong in such a relatively short time of 100 years, equal if not surpassing Yama in strength from a vice-captain level. We can, probably, safely surmise that this was done through some unnatural process, tying together with the Vizard, perhaps.

On other note, Aizen surely is a sneaky and creepy character. Also power-hungry and willing to do anything to get it.

vintagemistakes
April 04, 2008, 11:46 AM
Binktopia (http://www.mangashare.com/dl/Bleach_-107/714/)
In case anyone wants to download the chapter

So far I'm enjoying this back story more then the H.M. arc. can't wait to see what the maggots nest is

chrisb3
April 04, 2008, 12:02 PM
It's got to be Aizen's Shikai.

Why would you use Kido to hide when your Shikai is total hypnosis?

Travis
April 04, 2008, 12:05 PM
It is interesting. I have to lean more towards it being his shikai, because Kubo would have mentioned it being something else if it was. Like Shinji saying stop using that kido or dimensional thing to hide or something. Unless it's explained next chapter, I think it's safe to say it's the shikai.

gokusgirl
April 04, 2008, 12:05 PM
I was trying to wait for the translated version of this chapter, but after reading all these good posts... curiosity got the best of me.

Love the facial expressions, and I'm surprised at how was captain and vice captain at this point of this little side story arc. I hope they do extend it out to eight chapters, to give us all a better understanding at Urahara's exile, and the origin of the vizards.

Editied post: Just read the translated chapter over at One Manga...sweet. Still they have alot of explaining to do...

RadicalEd
April 04, 2008, 12:12 PM
I was trying to wait for the translated version of this chapter, but after reading all these good posts... curiosity got the best of me.

Love the facial expressions, and I'm surprised at how was captain and vice captain at this point of this little side story arc. I hope they do extend it out to eight chapters, to give us all a better understanding at Urahara's exile, and the origin of the vizards.

Can't wait for the translated version!


chapter's been already translated at onemanga.com

squidbreath
April 04, 2008, 12:18 PM
Lol, wonder if they'll ever reveal the secret to Urahara's crotch protection... Btw, is that Byakuya standing behind the old guy with a scarf as a vice? (there's a vice-captain badge thingy tied on his arm n all)

CheckMate
April 04, 2008, 12:18 PM
Shinji seems so bad ass in the last chapter, erm, beside his face, hair, and teeth :)

trigonoah
April 04, 2008, 12:24 PM
is it just me, or has anyone else noticed the fishy look ukitake-taichou is giving urahara when all the captains are lined up?

http://67.228.163.5/mangas/00000003/000028428/06.jpg (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/317/06/)

i'm not sure if it will mean much in the long run, but i just wanted to put that out there

purplerose_04
April 04, 2008, 12:31 PM
i wonder how long the flashback will last.. not like i mind since i think i probably enjoy it more than nw.. but then again... i was hoping to see the fights.. it would be awesome if everyone come out and fight..

Ryudo
April 04, 2008, 12:49 PM
Aizen: when did you realize?
Shinji: when you were still in your momma's womb.

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa awesome xD

Tsukisama
April 04, 2008, 01:07 PM
1. wonder to what this kirio person was promoted.. perhaps the secret division..

and well there were 9 captains standing around + urahara + yama = 11. kenpachi isnt included seems to mean that "everyones here" doesnt mean kenpachi^^
so whats with the last squad? there are 13 aren't there?

i think isshin will be captain either of the 0th squad, the one that isnt in this chapter or he was kenpachis presuccesor.. at least he has this special kind of armor on his shoulder

Kirio Hikifune was promoted to the Royal Guard (Squad 0), which is comprised apparently of promoted captains.

Isshin could be one of those options or simply a member of Squad 0, since we know that it is a squad made up of captain-class shinigami, which Isshin stated he was.

The assumption is that the division missing its captain's representation (other than the 11th) is the 10th.


Go to onemanga (http://onemanga.com/Bleach/317/01/). Another great chapter, Urahara being focused was wonderful, great to see him being quirky. Was surprising that he was under Yoruichi, which only furthers Yoruichi, plus Urahara could also have a lot of those secret shunpo moves. Wonder what Aizen used to conceal himself, but was awesome to see Shinji just break it. Can't wait for the next chapter, really wanna know what this maggots nest is. :)

Finally, this might change people's minds for those who put Urahara above Yoruichi in terms of power, which is something I have seen a lot on these boards.

The maggots nest definitely sounds interesting. I have no good idea as to what it could be, but I bet it will probably be significant.


Shinji seems so bad ass in the last chapter, erm, beside his face, hair, and teeth :)

:gigglebunny Shinji's appearance really is the only thing deducting from his coolness.
[hr]

Another thing I'm curious about, is if they filled 12th division so quickly in a week, then why hasn't 10th division been filled?

I'm more curious about Urahara's transformation of the 12th division. We know that it becomes a science and tech division, and before his captaincy, it clearly is not such a division. So, how does the division transform to being technologically oriented? Does Urahara make all of the current 12th division members transfer, does he bring in research-oriented shinigami while phasing the current 12th division out slowly, or do you think he tries to educate the current 12th division, transforming them into researchers?

KyanWan
April 04, 2008, 01:24 PM
The maggots nest definitely sounds interesting. I have no good idea as to what it could be, but I bet it will probably be significant.


I'm just sitting here thinking - what's a maggot to a Shinigami?

You don't think ... it's a hollow ...

and their nest is -

well, you know.

garaa89
April 04, 2008, 01:30 PM
what with the old guy who has the same scarf as Byakuya. or is taht him in the back as vice captaine.

hollow veggie
April 04, 2008, 01:32 PM
Awesome chapter. What I liked most was seeing Byakuya as a Lt and his father/grandfather as the Captain. That was awesome. Seeing the scarf that is handed down through the generations and everything.

The Shadow
April 04, 2008, 01:36 PM
That guy who's sporting a 'fro was way ahead of his time, if this is 100 years ago. :) Not to mention his sunglasses...

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in the Maggot's Nest. I guess they will pursue some research there.

redcometfm
April 04, 2008, 02:06 PM
Could the maggot's nest be that pit that Ikkaku's partner pinned Ganjyu against in SS Arc?

Kaijuu
April 04, 2008, 02:14 PM
I honestly hope the countdown won't count down to zero^^ I mean I'm really enjoying this "flashback" but 108 chapters are way to much...


what's a maggot to a Shinigami?
I didn't really think about that much. For me it's somehow clear... it has to be Hueco Mundo. Well, but i don't think Kisuke and Hiyori will go there alone! I think something will happen there which transforms the Vizards in what they are now. At least one or two (Shinji and Hiyori?)
Of course Aizen must gain knowledge about the strenght of a Vaizard. This is when (hopefully) the "flashback" ends and Aizen makes his Plan!
But on the other hand, I've got no idea what could happen and what the Spirit-King has to do with it^^

And please, don't insult me if my english is THAT bad^^

Shiro-kun
April 04, 2008, 02:22 PM
what with the old guy who has the same scarf as Byakuya. or is taht him in the back as vice captaine.

Possibly is ..
That old man might be from the same clan as Byakuya is from

TheChosenOne
April 04, 2008, 02:27 PM
The maggots nest could be somesort of experimental place that is located in SS. :)

xmikeyxlikesitx
April 04, 2008, 03:12 PM
I think Urahara experimented on the Vizard with that reiatsu-stealing pit similar to the one Ichigo was stuck in when we first saw his mask...Urahara didn't seem too surprised...and who knows? Maybe he forcefully turned Ichigo into a Vizard...

Jehuty
April 04, 2008, 03:47 PM
Did Hirako break Aizen's hypnosis or something? It looked like he pulled down some fake scenery that was covering Aizen up. That's freaking amazing if he did.

NM Richo makes a good point on what that probably was. If it was Aizen's hypnosis, since we don't know what that would like being broken, then that would be crazy, in a good way.
I imagine it'd be some kind of kidou. Hitsugaya did that sort of thing on Hinamori's room.

exo15
April 04, 2008, 04:00 PM
Yeeh!! the Old Guy wid Byakuya Scarf.. SAme Clan as As Byakuya..i Hope!!!
[hr]

The maggots nest could be somesort of experimental place that is located in SS. :)

think Maggots nest! is where they Kept theHollows that Captured!!!.. And they will train there to Get Vizards!!!

GPZrag
April 04, 2008, 04:12 PM
The maggots nest could be somesort of experimental place that is located in SS. :)
Or it also could be a nest of maggost =)
[hr]
Hollows are most likely killed... i don't think they capture them..

Raimaru
April 04, 2008, 04:46 PM
Ok, in my point of view, Shinji definetly dispelled Aizen's shikai ability.
And it's fucking awesome he can do that.

... better learn that, Ichigo.

hayateblitz
April 04, 2008, 05:00 PM
Yay! Yoruichi made an appearance in this chapter! i love these flashback chapters :)

Most likely Aizen has gotten uber strong since then, seeing that he could fool the whole soul society about his death. But i'm going to hold on to some hope that Shinji is still stronger than Aizen and will come to give his subordinate a good spanking after all this :3

bighawke5
April 04, 2008, 05:21 PM
wow intersting chapter
so it looks like urahara was the type to look all clumsy but in actuallity he's strong and powerful behind those clumsy looks (old man says he was powerful enough to be captain physically and mentally). so we find out yoruichi and urahara knew each other well before as he was her third seat and she even knew he was qualified enough for the position of captain...now shinji's cool this chapter increased my fanboyism toward that guy..I always thought that he and urahara had a similar personality, also the way they are sarcastic and the way they can get serious if they chose in an instant..Aizen wow this chapter reaffirmed his evilness' roots. He's like a maggot..annoying and everywhere, his personality is disgusting..at least from what we've seen the last chapter and this one...he's not even likable, meddling into ppl's business. I would guess he had a scheme and was trying to find out more secrets behind soul society and such and trying to get stronger..

also Dont know if others noticed it but Aizen was messing around with his captain (shinji) and challenging him a bit. Aizen knew that shinji would catch him(even by using his shikai to hide) cuz when he was uncovered by shinji he said "i'd expect nothin less" ..but he still went ahead and did it, he spied without thinking "am i stepping over the line here?"..its like a thief telling the police he'll steal at said store and gives the time also does it of course he'll be caught..
if aizen was this sleazy back then no wonder he is now and im sure that his captain(shinji) was stronger at the time and got even stronger with hollow powers....i mean we havent seen shinji go shikai or even bankai with his vaizard transformation yet so yeah...plus he dispelled aizen's shikai so there can't be anything more "grandiose" than that LOL

he even asks him "when did you become aware that i was here" ....this is like a game to him(Aizen i mean), to which shinji respond" before you even stepped out of your mother's wound". this shows that aizen was always this annoying and spying around and he said it as a joke im sure, but it also turns the question back at aizen...by asken when his captain was aware of his presence it's like trying to see how good his sensing skills are and how powerful his awareness is(all this still add to my point that he was playing with his captain..no respect at all, challenging him even..) basically he was studying his captain ...probably to beat him one day and become captain so he could have access to more secrets, who knows? but he was still doing it.

I wouldnt be surprised if shinji fought Aizen before being banished from soul society..

igotthegoods
April 04, 2008, 07:02 PM
i find it interesting that so many people are convinced that aizen's hiding is his shikai. yes, we know that he can create illusions with his zanpaktou, but he presented it as a water-type to soul society, keeping its true nature a secret. why would he use his true shikai around someone like shinji, who aizen seems to recognize would be able to see through such deception? i don't think aizen is that sloppy....

anyway, i loved the chapter. it was awesome to see shinji being badass and exposing aizen....it's nice to see someone suspicious of him. also, i am loving that urahara is being brought into the forefront as he is my favorite character :love

bradz22
April 04, 2008, 07:10 PM
Oh, I was like... why is this topic empty? I guess the chapter got released not too long ago.

Well it's great to see Yoruichi acting like a sempai to Urahara. I always thought they were always more on equal terms, but it seems she became a Captain before he did. "Little Byakuya" is standing behind them as a Vice captain. How cute. lol

wow, what page is byakuya standing behind them? wondering what he looks like before/.

and shinji really looks like a horse with all that long hair. haha!

btw, why are there only 9 captains? zaraki didn't come and urahara was just promoted so where are the other two?

Tsukisama
April 04, 2008, 07:20 PM
oh hey I see a Kuchiki ^^

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-315.6/page007.html the man standing next to Shunsui is wearing the same type of scarf as Byakuya, I can't really tell but he might even have pipes in his hair (though I don't think so) think this is the elderly man that accompanied Byakuya when he came to adopt Rukia?

Elderly Captain Kuchiki (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-315.6/page008.html)
Byakuya's servant from Rukia's adoption (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/179/11/)

When seen up close, these two do not look the same. I think the captain is probably Byakuya's father, since the scarf and hair pipe thing are symbols of the head of the Kuchiki family.

gigantor21
April 04, 2008, 07:20 PM
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1166/bleachdaddykuchikijv5.jpg

Looking at the full chapter, I can see why people think that could be Byakuya's father now. He has the same "I'm so awesome, I don't even need to look at you" demeanor. I'm still iffy on the VC being Nii-sama himself, though.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8783/bleachcaptainyoruichich6.jpg

Yoruichi was teh hawtness in this chapter. She rocks the militia uniform better than Soi Fon, hands down.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2052/bleachfuckthewatermoonsys4.jpg

I'm also hoping this was Aizen's Shikai being broken. I still think someone seasoned enough could deduce his position by spirit pressure--remember, he didn't say he could manipulate that--but I'm hoping there's more to it.

As far as the maggots nest thing, I think Yumichika's history lesson in Volume 10 may provide a hint:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7663/bleachthemaggotnestmythdb4.jpg

Could they have used sample material taken from the Hollows and criminals here to do experiments? I know the research institute didn't exist yet, but that doesn't mean the 12th division couldn't specialize in experiments before then.

This was another really good chapter. I like how the Gaiden is developing, and I hope Kubo keeps it up.

Tsukisama
April 04, 2008, 07:24 PM
wow, what page is byakuya standing behind them? wondering what he looks like before/.

and shinji really looks like a horse with all that long hair. haha!

btw, why are there only 9 captains? zaraki didn't come and urahara was just promoted so where are the other two?

http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/315.6/007.jpg

10 captains are standing in the picture (including Yamamoto) and Urahara is also present. The two captains not present are Kenpachi and presumably the 10th division captain.

The lieutentant in the background behind the old Kuchiki captain is thought to be Byakuya.

Grimjaww
April 04, 2008, 07:32 PM
http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/315.6/007.jpg

10 captains are standing in the picture (including Yamamoto) and Urahara is also present. The two captains not present are Kenpachi and presumably the 10th division captain.

The lieutentant in the background behind the old Kuchiki captain is thought to be Byakuya.

Great eye man, I didn't even notice that until now.

On to the matter of Aizen's shikai being broken. It's understandable that Shinji would be able to detect him while using an illusion because he most likely trained him, or helped him to advance the technique. Next, did Urahara notice Aizen and just ignore him, or was it only Shinji, signifying that he is stronger then Urahara at this point?

Tsukisama
April 04, 2008, 07:43 PM
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1166/bleachdaddykuchikijv5.jpg

Looking at the full chapter, I can see why people think that could be Byakuya's father now. He has the same "I'm so awesome, I don't even need to look at you" demeanor. I'm still iffy on the VC being Nii-sama himself, though.

I agree that, at this point, it is still to early to definitively say it is Byakuya. In the far away picture of the captain's lineup, it was possible for people to confuse the elderly captain as Byakuya's attendant; something similar could be happening here, but it definitely would be nice if it were Byakuya as the VC in there.


http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8783/bleachcaptainyoruichich6.jpg

Yoruichi was teh hawtness in this chapter. She rocks the militia uniform better than Soi Fon, hands down.

Yoruichi rocks it better, because she fills it out more. This is to me a bit reminiscent of the thread of which you were Senior VP. :amuse


http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2052/bleachfuckthewatermoonsys4.jpg

I'm also hoping this was Aizen's Shikai being broken. I still think someone seasoned enough could deduce his position by spirit pressure--remember, he didn't say he could manipulate that--but I'm hoping there's more to it.

It would definitely be cooler if it were Aizen's shikai being broken, but the only potential problem with that would be that Hirako would then know that Aizen's zanpakutou is not a flowing-water type like he has deluded everyone else into thinking. It is possible that Shinji could have kept this knowledge secret from the rest of SS for some reason, but I don't know why he would.


As far as the maggots nest thing, I think Yumichika's history lesson in Volume 10 may provide a hint:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7663/bleachthemaggotnestmythdb4.jpg

Could they have used sample material taken from the Hollows and criminals here to do experiments? I know the research institute didn't exist yet, but that doesn't mean the 12th division couldn't specialize in experiments before then.

Good memory on the Yumichika talk. That is the best idea for the "maggots nest" I've heard yet.

I don't think that the 12th division was probably an experiment-oriented division before Urahara because of Hiyori's reaction to seeing a lab. (Her surprise seemed to be at the fact that it was changed into a lab in addition to the emotional shock of having the room changed at all.) 12th division could have been research-oriented prior to Urahara, but I doubt it. Having Urahara be the one to completely revolutionize the division would make for better story IMO. Hopefully, this gets cleared up in subsequent chapters.


This was another really good chapter. I like how the Gaiden is developing, and I hope Kubo keeps it up.

I agree 100%. :hbunny

TheChosenOne
April 04, 2008, 07:47 PM
It would definitely be cooler if it were Aizen's shikai being broken, but the only potential problem with that would be that Hirako would then know that Aizen's zanpakutou is not a flowing-water type like he has deluded everyone else into thinking. It is possible that Shinji could have kept this knowledge secret from the rest of SS for some reason, but I don't know why he would.

I agree, I doubt it was Aizen's shikai cuz if complete hypnosis can be broken like that, then doesn't say much. Plus why would Shinji keep complete hypnosis a secret, which seems odd. I think it's likely some sort of dimension concealment, rather than hiding himself with his shikai. :)

Jehuty
April 04, 2008, 07:52 PM
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8783/bleachcaptainyoruichich6.jpg

Yoruichi was teh hawtness in this chapter. She rocks the militia uniform better than Soi Fon, hands down.Of course she does. Look at those tits.


http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2052/bleachfuckthewatermoonsys4.jpg

I'm also hoping this was Aizen's Shikai being broken. I still think someone seasoned enough could deduce his position by spirit pressure--remember, he didn't say he could manipulate that--but I'm hoping there's more to it.Hitsugaya and Komamura seemed confused enough.

Still, I've developed a mini-theory on this. Soi Fon says that she was only able to use Suzumebachi's ability for a limited amount of time while she was Yoruichi's subordinate, but later, she says that it's permanent based on her will. I'm thinking something similar's going down here. Unohana states that she found something off with Aizen's "corspe," though she couldn't pinpoint exactly what. This is when Aizen's reached the peak of his Shinigami abilities. Now, we see him when he was a mere Lieutenant. The power difference between Lieutenant and Captain is quite large. (See the biggest pansy ever Renji and Captain Badass Kenpachi.) So when he was just a Lieutenant, he probably didn't have quite the grip on the "kanzen" part of "kanzen saimin," Kyouka Suigetsu's ability.

Travis
April 04, 2008, 07:58 PM
Elderly Captain Kuchiki (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-315.6/page008.html)
Byakuya's servant from Rukia's adoption (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/179/11/)

When seen up close, these two do not look the same. I think the captain is probably Byakuya's father, since the scarf and hair pipe thing are symbols of the head of the Kuchiki family.

Well looking later on in this chapter, you see that Byakuya mentions his parents being dead. So the old man can't be his father. Maybe it's his Grandfather or Great Uncle or something along those lines I guess. He's probably Kuchiki nobility if he's wearing the same noblility stuff that Byakuya had.

goodenuf2beatu
April 04, 2008, 08:01 PM
So, can we finally put to rest the theory that states seniority based on the sleeves of the haori? We see new Urahara with long sleeves there at his induction.

redcometfm
April 04, 2008, 08:05 PM
Wait! I think I've got it!!?

Urahara develops the special, untraceable gigai (perhaps using the hogyoku?) and perhaps some of the captains helped him? If so, then they could be deemed criminals, thrown into the pit, forced to develop/awaken their Vizard selves (via help from Urahara?). Aizen may have helped with the research but used his shikai ablities to avoid accusation and also to observe/discover the vizard transformation and potential effects of the hogyoku. Urahara and co. escape SS with help from a sympathetic Yoruichi.

It won't be exactly that, but I'm thinking something along that line, albeit a bit more amalgamated and thought out.

TheChosenOne
April 04, 2008, 08:07 PM
So, can we finally put to rest the theory that states seniority based on the sleeves of the haori? We see new Urahara with long sleeves there at his induction.

I think the sleeves applies if your predecessor (captain) has them, like Hikifune likely had long sleeves thus Urahara wears long sleeves. Rose's wore short sleeves thus Gin (successor?) wears them. :)

Raizen
April 04, 2008, 08:28 PM
Shinji looks so bad-ass. Aizen is pissing me off even more. If I was his captain I would have killled him for being sneaky and all up in my business. We still need to clarify exactly what Aizen used to conceal himself. Also 12th VC is f-ing annoying. She should DIE lol

Jehuty
April 04, 2008, 08:37 PM
Shinji looks so bad-ass. Aizen is pissing me off even more. If I was his captain I would have killled him for being sneaky and all up in my business. We still need to clarify exactly what Aizen used to conceal himself. Also 12th VC is f-ing annoying. She should DIE lol

Really? I think this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/317/14/) doesn't look nearly as badass as this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/236/04/). Long hair doesn't sit well on Shinji's head.

TheChosenOne
April 04, 2008, 08:40 PM
I dunno if it's the suit or if it the long hair, but the second pic is what makes him badass. :)

erik-the-red
April 04, 2008, 08:48 PM
So, can we finally put to rest the theory that states seniority based on the sleeves of the haori? We see new Urahara with long sleeves there at his induction.

Definitely. I never liked that theory to begin with. Prior to this arc, we knew that Zaraki and Kurotsuchi had not been captains for much longer than 110 years. Yet, the former had no sleeves while the latter had long leeves. Seniority or the division?

Tsukisama
April 04, 2008, 09:05 PM
Well looking later on in this chapter, you see that Byakuya mentions his parents being dead. So the old man can't be his father. Maybe it's his Grandfather or Great Uncle or something along those lines I guess. He's probably Kuchiki nobility if he's wearing the same noblility stuff that Byakuya had.

That chapter takes place 50 years ago. The current gaiden takes place 110 years ago. Byakuya's parents are only confirmed to be dead in Byakuya's flashback of 50 years ago; thus, Byakuya's parents could still be alive at this point in the gaiden.

In the chapter about the flashback to Rukia, Byakuya is head of the family, signified by the scarf and hair thing. In the gaiden, this old man appears to be head of the family with the scarf and hair thing. The scarf and the hair thing are passed down from one head of the Kuchiki clan to the next. (I know that it is said in one of the descriptions of Byakuya in a tankoban; if someone feels up to finding it, that would be lovely.) Unless the head of the Kuchiki clan is not a patrilineal or the current head of the clan had no children, this Kuchiki is either Byakuya's father or grandfather, but I would lean more towards father given how recent is.

black_crow
April 04, 2008, 09:47 PM
I loved this chapter! The scene between Urahara and Hiyori was hilarious, i predict an intresting relationship between them.
I used to not lie Shinji, but lately i love him :hearts he owns Aizen so easily. By the way, I agree with you Jehuty, Shinji is really badass in that pic haha
I wonder what the real relationship between Aizen and Shinji, Aizen seems evil even back then.

Cant wait for next chapter :)

Travis
April 04, 2008, 09:52 PM
That chapter takes place 50 years ago. The current gaiden takes place 110 years ago. Byakuya's parents are only confirmed to be dead in Byakuya's flashback of 50 years ago; thus, Byakuya's parents could still be alive at this point in the gaiden.

In the chapter about the flashback to Rukia, Byakuya is head of the family, signified by the scarf and hair thing. In the gaiden, this old man appears to be head of the family with the scarf and hair thing. The scarf and the hair thing are passed down from one head of the Kuchiki clan to the next. (I know that it is said in one of the descriptions of Byakuya in a tankoban; if someone feels up to finding it, that would be lovely.) Unless the head of the Kuchiki clan is not a patrilineal or the current head of the clan had no children, this Kuchiki is either Byakuya's father or grandfather, but I would lean more towards father given how recent is.

Yeah dumb mistake on my part. So if that is his father he dies pretty soon. I wonder if the other person he showed Senkei to was the head of the family or something.

Darek Khort
April 04, 2008, 10:03 PM
Wait! I think I've got it!!?

Urahara develops the special, untraceable gigai (perhaps using the hogyoku?) and perhaps some of the captains helped him? If so, then they could be deemed criminals, thrown into the pit, forced to develop/awaken their Vizard selves (via help from Urahara?). Aizen may have helped with the research but used his shikai ablities to avoid accusation and also to observe/discover the vizard transformation and potential effects of the hogyoku. Urahara and co. escape SS with help from a sympathetic Yoruichi.

It won't be exactly that, but I'm thinking something along that line, albeit a bit more amalgamated and thought out.

That could very much be what will happen.
However I see a few flaws.
1. Those at captain-level will most likely be able to taken down a pit of hollows.
2. Wouldn't they have used the execution grounds instead for high-level officers like VCs and captains?

Kuchiki's father/grandfather/relative most likely dies fighting the Vizards when they are still in berserk-hollow mode.

I seem to also recall Ukitake when fighting Yama in the SS Arc mentioning that it was the second time he had seen Yama use his bankai (or was it shikai?)
Perhaps Yama uses it when the Vizards go berserk?

Raizen
April 04, 2008, 10:25 PM
That could very much be what will happen.
However I see a few flaws.
1. Those at captain-level will most likely be able to taken down a pit of hollows.
2. Wouldn't they have used the execution grounds instead for high-level officers like VCs and captains?

Kuchiki's father/grandfather/relative most likely dies fighting the Vizards when they are still in berserk-hollow mode.

I seem to also recall Ukitake when fighting Yama in the SS Arc mentioning that it was the second time he had seen Yama use his bankai (or was it shikai?)
Perhaps Yama uses it when the Vizards go berserk?
I don't remember Uki ever stating that yama has only shown his shikai or bankai twice. All I remember him saying is that "how long has it been has I felt such fear" or something along that line.

As for Aizen I believe he stole urahara hyokyu and used it and something happened to the officers and captains, or somehow he framed them. IDK but whatever it is it, it's going to be interesting

Grimjaww
April 04, 2008, 10:31 PM
Ok this is what I don't get. People are saying that Aizen did not use his shikai to conceal himself, so what did he use then? He couldn't have ripped a whole into a seperate dimension because only Hollows or people with Hollow powers could do this. So pretty sure that Aizen creating a hole in the dimension could be thrown out of the bag. There's something off here, but at this point from what we've been revealed to throughout the manga is that only hollows can rip holes into dimensions, so the only logical answer is that it was his shikai.

madelyn7
April 04, 2008, 10:35 PM
hi everyone,

this may be a RIDICULOUSLY bad theory, but its been bugging me for a while so I just need to spit it out!

I've always been really anxious to work out the mystery behind Isshin, so when I saw this picture in -107 I started laughing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v213/JadziaKennel/f1e17a42.jpg


I immediately thought he looked a lot like a younger version of Isshin from Ch 187!
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2755/is2jw6.jpg

Anyways, like I said its probably a stretch and some random guy with absolutely no significance, but wouldn't it be funny if it WAS him?

black_crow
April 04, 2008, 10:38 PM
I think its possible. They look pretty similar. Maybe this would even show up in the past chapters

someguy0830
April 04, 2008, 10:40 PM
Ok this is what I don't get. People are saying that Aizen did not use his shikai to conceal himself, so what did he use then? He couldn't have ripped a whole into a seperate dimension because only Hollows or people with Hollow powers could do this. So pretty sure that Aizen creating a hole in the dimension could be thrown out of the bag. There's something off here, but at this point from what we've been revealed to throughout the manga is that only hollows can rip holes into dimensions, so the only logical answer is that it was his shikai.Only hollows can rip holes into other actual dimensions. Little pocket dimensions are fair game. That little Negacion cube thing does that. Wouldn't be too difficult for a shinigami to pull off a similar, if weaker, trick. Or maybe it's some sort of light-bending kido barrier. At any rate. his shikai doesn't create a physical barrier such as that which Shinji destroyed. If it were his shikai, it would have acted different.

Tsukisama
April 04, 2008, 11:03 PM
Welcome to MH, madelyn7. :hbunny

That is an interesting theory. It is possible, but it is fairly generic look. Kubo has recycled certain features of characters before like Soken's mustache showing up on Barragan or the top of Masaki's wavy hair looking very similar to some of Aizen's wavy hair among other examples. I don't really think that they mean that much except that Kubo just tends to draw in a certain way and can only make characters' features vary but so much.

madelyn7
April 04, 2008, 11:07 PM
thanks :)

yeah, thats most likely what it is. when I first read Bleach I thought that Ganju was Isshin, so the entire time they were in soul society I was very confused lol

Dom
April 04, 2008, 11:21 PM
Hello everyone,

This is my first post, so please be merciful. There's a lot of assumptions about whether or not Shinji dispelled Aizen's shikai, or if it was kidou etc. We know for a fact that Aizen can create illusions. What we don't know for a fact is if there is kidou that can create a pocket dimension for him to hide in. All things being equal, it is easier to assume that Aizen was using his shikai ability (perhaps in a weaker form, since he is assumably weaker at this point in the timeline).

Shinji has always been shown to be a bit mysterious, if not a bit mischievous. It is likely that Shinji is fully aware of Aizen's shikai ability, and has chosen not to disclose it to SS at large. He even seems this way while doling out advice to Urahara. While Shinji is probably not an "evil" or "bad" character, he has enough of a streak of rogue-ishness about him that makes it clear he is not on the up and up.

TheChosenOne
April 04, 2008, 11:26 PM
Shinji has always been shown to be a bit mysterious, if not a bit mischievous. It is likely that Shinji is fully aware of Aizen's shikai ability, and has chosen not to disclose it to SS at large.

First of all Welcome to MH, Dom. :kkthumbs

Second of all, the problem starts with why would Shinji keep the shikai ability hidden, it's kinda odd. :confused

Richo
April 05, 2008, 12:11 AM
First of all Welcome to MH, Dom. :kkthumbs

Second of all, the problem starts with why would Shinji keep the shikai ability hidden, it's kinda odd. :confused

same reason as why he would want to attain hollow powers, besides creating illussions as a shikai isnt anything special aslong you know how to defeat it (same as zaraki vs tousen fight). Their are 2 known ways to beat aizen his shikai (being a kidou expert like unohana or being blind or keeping out 1 factor off the requirements for the illussion). If you know how it works (most pple even are dumb enough to fully explain their abilities) you can figure out a way to defeat it (ichigo will probably use his enormous reiatsu to stop aizen his shikai) (a little off topic~~)

It is known that aizen is able to influence dimensions or even create/acces other dimensions since its obvious shinji ripped open the dimensions (like ulquirora did). The dimensions aizen developed for the espada was designed to imprisson low level arrancar (who dont have the reiatsu to ripp it open or knowledge), this does indicate that a person is required to have a certain amount of reiatsu to acces other dimensions (the more you have the stronger barriers you can rip open, presuming that every other dimension is protected by some sort of barrier to keep weak/ignorant pple from using them).
there are 2 perfect example for this dimension theory: Hueco mundo and the kings dimension. Hueco mundo can already be used by low level hollows, shinigami are required to use spells to open it properly. The kings realm requires a king being forged out many souls (wich implies a huge reiatsu when combined)

eddy26
April 05, 2008, 12:23 AM
I think it is cool that Shinji could find out where Aizen was so easily. If it was his shikai I'm glad because now if Shinji ends up fighting Aizen then Aizen will have to fight one on one no tricks. It wouldn't make sense that Aizen could trick everyone with just his shikai because that would pretty much make him invincible. No one would be able to touch him he'd just use his illusions and kill everyone without getting a scratch. Going by what's happening so far the first Vizard is going to be Hiyori. She was eventhough she didn't like it Urahara's VC so she'll be exposed to his first experiments. Other than Ichigo it took her the longest to win her battle against the inner hollow. That might be because no one knew what was going on inside her. I'm probably wrong about that I'm just taking a wild guess at it.
Isshin's story I don't know it is so strange. At first I thought he was the head member of the Shiba clan since Ichigo and Kaien are so similar. When Urahara was kicked out maybe Isshin and Yoruichi ended up leaving with him. That is why the Shiba family is looked down upon because the head member ran away from his duty as a Royal Guard. Urahara could have given Isshin a gigai and eventually he fell in love with Ichigo's mom a normal human. The only problem is how does Ryukken a Quincy know that Isshin is really a shinigami. The logical explanation would be that Ishida's grandfather told his dad about what Isshin really is. I just hope his role in the past is going to be explained.
The other thing I'd like to know is where the hell is Hacchi and the green haired vizard? We've seen every other one why haven't they been shown yet maybe they are the VC of the other vaizards. Green haired vizard VC of Rose and Hacchi the VC of Kensei?

drakend
April 05, 2008, 01:12 AM
Uhm if I had a subordinate who would spy me I would beat the crap out of him to make him understanding who is the boss. Why doesn't Shinji crush his vice one and for all? I'm starting to think that Shinji's softness is the primary cause Aizen became what we know today (assuming he is a shinigami and not an arrancar vastroode to begin with, of course).
Anther thing: this Hikifune captain why is the mentioned so many times if her only use was to introduce Urahara? It wouldn't have been necessary to mention her at all to be honest: perhaps she isn't this irrelevant like some guys here say...

Streifen
April 05, 2008, 01:51 AM
mentioning hikifune a lot of times might mean that she will play an important role in the storyline... im curious who is this so called "kenpachi" of that time... damn, aizen mustve been through a lot.. he was only a vC when unohana shunsui and ukitake were already captains, but look now, he could be as strong or stronger than the old man...

Zeus-Tails
April 05, 2008, 02:21 AM
You know, if Aizen doesn't even fear Yamamoto's power, you got to think Shinji probably cannot even scratch him.

Doombot
April 05, 2008, 02:21 AM
I think alot of people are missing the point here with Aizen. He stated himself when exiting SS after the Rukia rescue arc that NO ONE knew the real Aizen. What makes you think that he is showing his true powers to his captain? Perhaps he wanted to be found? Isn't it in his advantage to allow Shinji to think he totally outclasses him? Aizen's total life in SS was an illusion.

I don't think that Aizen was able to gain so much strength in 100 years and that he had to be concealing at least an amazing amount at this time. This arc will probably end showing how Aizen was the man behind the Vaizards, Isshin, Urahara, and Yoruichi fleeing or being exiled from SS. Because either Shinji or Urahara are going to find something out about Aizen that would expose him.

First Post btw.

Zeus-Tails
April 05, 2008, 02:51 AM
I think alot of people are missing the point here with Aizen. He stated himself when exiting SS after the Rukia rescue arc that NO ONE knew the real Aizen. What makes you think that he is showing his true powers to his captain? Perhaps he wanted to be found? Isn't it in his advantage to allow Shinji to think he totally outclasses him? Aizen's total life in SS was an illusion.

I don't think that Aizen was able to gain so much strength in 100 years and that he had to be concealing at least an amazing amount at this time. This arc will probably end showing how Aizen was the man behind the Vaizards, Isshin, Urahara, and Yoruichi fleeing or being exiled from SS. Because either Shinji or Urahara are going to find something out about Aizen that would expose him.

First Post btw.

I agree with you about Aizen's intentions. If NO ONE, not even Yamamoto, knew about the real Aizen then that means Aizen was faking ever since he came to the Gotei 13. Knowing that, I'd like to know more about Aizen's past before he entered SS and his early years in SS. He didn't get this strong overnight. I also want to know why he chose to hide so much so early.

Grimjaww
April 05, 2008, 03:10 AM
I agree with you about Aizen's intentions. If NO ONE, not even Yamamoto, knew about the real Aizen then that means Aizen was faking ever since he came to the Gotei 13. Knowing that, I'd like to know more about Aizen's past before he entered SS and his early years in SS. He didn't get this strong overnight. I also want to know why he chose to hide so much so early.

Well like Shinji said to Aizen, that Aizen sends shivers down Shinji's spine. Shinji had been joking with Aizen up until he said this line. This shows that he is suspicious of Aizen, as to what extent he knows the true Aizen or his power, we do not know. The suspicion is there, that is going to be key for the coming chapters in my opinion, or I could be dead wrong, but Shinji wouldn't say such a line to his VC for jokes, he had a serious expression when he said it......

jocouslie
April 05, 2008, 03:22 AM
my prediction for the next chapter: maggot's nest is hueco mundo. urahara's going to bring to his lab some hollows for experimentation ^_^

as for aizen and shinji, i think shinji should punish aizen because of his actions.

Streifen
April 05, 2008, 04:24 AM
I think alot of people are missing the point here with Aizen. He stated himself when exiting SS after the Rukia rescue arc that NO ONE knew the real Aizen. What makes you think that he is showing his true powers to his captain? Perhaps he wanted to be found? Isn't it in his advantage to allow Shinji to think he totally outclasses him? Aizen's total life in SS was an illusion.

I don't think that Aizen was able to gain so much strength in 100 years and that he had to be concealing at least an amazing amount at this time. This arc will probably end showing how Aizen was the man behind the Vaizards, Isshin, Urahara, and Yoruichi fleeing or being exiled from SS. Because either Shinji or Urahara are going to find something out about Aizen that would expose him.

First Post btw.

well, yeah, if ever your predictions are true then it mustve took him a very long time just to reach to where he is right now... i mean, that was only 100 years ago. not to mention when he was still not VC.... i dunno how many years have passed but its too long... well who knows...

Travis
April 05, 2008, 04:53 AM
First of all Welcome to MH, Dom. :kkthumbs

Second of all, the problem starts with why would Shinji keep the shikai ability hidden, it's kinda odd. :confused

It may not really be hidden so much, considering it doesn't seem like you have to show anyone your shikai. Kira said only Renji and was it Hisagi or Hinamori knew his shikai? I'm sure Gin and Aizen probably knew it atleast but it doesn't seem to be a requirement, and your Captain may be the only one who needs to know depending on who he is. Aizen may have not shown the other captains it yet.

Although I have to wonder, was Urahara under it's effects or not? I guess it could be some kind of stealth barrier, but why it wouldn't be mentioned seems odd.

Morlun
April 05, 2008, 06:04 AM
It would definitely be cooler if it were Aizen's shikai being broken, but the only potential problem with that would be that Hirako would then know that Aizen's zanpakutou is not a flowing-water type like he has deluded everyone else into thinking. It is possible that Shinji could have kept this knowledge secret from the rest of SS for some reason, but I don't know why he would.

Remember, as Isane Kotetsu said (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/171/10/), Aizen's zanpakutou was supposed to be a flowing-water type, and its shikai "distorts the sight with reflections of fog, confusing the enemy and making them fight among themselves". Not only that is very basic hypnosis (I wouldn't be surprised if Aizen himself thought his ability was simply that at some point -- way before he started his scheming, though: when he told others about his shikai, he was definitely lying), but it'd make sense that it'd hide the user in those "reflections of fog". Aizen didn't necessarily lie about his zanpakutou, he just omitted a few details. It could make opponents fight themselves... among other things. :D

More to the point, while Isane's description was short, it stands to reason that Aizen's facade of a shikai hid him as well as confused the enemies, otherwise it wouldn't be much of a strategy. :) As for Shinji breaking his shikai, well, either Aizen's power at the time wasn't that much, or he had enough control to make his facade Vice-Captain-weak.


I think the sleeves applies if your predecessor (captain) has them, like Hikifune likely had long sleeves thus Urahara wears long sleeves. Rose's wore short sleeves thus Gin (successor?) wears them. :)

Or maybe it's just style and personal taste. :)


Unless the head of the Kuchiki clan is not a patrilineal or the current head of the clan had no children, this Kuchiki is either Byakuya's father or grandfather, but I would lean more towards father given how recent is.

Actually, considering the speed at which shinigami age (Yamamoto is over 2,100, Rukia and Renji are 150, etc...) it could very well be his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, for all we know. :D Soul Society time is wonky.


Well like Shinji said to Aizen, that Aizen sends shivers down Shinji's spine. Shinji had been joking with Aizen up until he said this line. This shows that he is suspicious of Aizen, as to what extent he knows the true Aizen or his power, we do not know. The suspicion is there, that is going to be key for the coming chapters in my opinion, or I could be dead wrong, but Shinji wouldn't say such a line to his VC for jokes, he had a serious expression when he said it......

This chapter really intrigued me. Shinji told Urahara they were made from the same mould, and didn't care much about other people's feelings. Aizen and Shinji both tell each other they give each other the creeps. Things are getting shadier. We know Aizen's evil, but I'm starting to wonder about Shinji and/or Urahara. It's been a while, now, since the last bombshell (Aizen alive and uber-badass, Isshin a shinigami)... I have a feeling this arc will reveal that either the vizards or Urahara's team (minus Yoruichi) are with Aizen.

I mean, when I think about it, what did Urahara do that hurt Aizen's plans up until now? He sent ryoka to Soul Society: that ended up helping Aizen's plan. He sent ryoka and shinigami to Hueco Mundo, effectively trapping them there and aiding, once again, Aizen's plan. Now we're all thinking cavalry will come to the rescue in fake Karakura town, and that the vizards and Urahara will show up to help fend off the traitors and the arrancar... but I'm having serious doubts about that.

hollowdemon
April 05, 2008, 06:48 AM
wow so as ur saying ur presuming that urahara is a traitor? or some sort of bad guy in the long run for the winter war? yikes that would be pretty much make me feel dumbfounded since urahara isnt the type to do so :oh

im just wondering what that whole shinji grabbing to expose aizen thing was about .... is that one of aizen's abilities?
the old man definitely looked like a kuchiki alright ... when it had a panel for him he closed his eyes just as what byakuya does when he receives the same :D

Schabrak
April 05, 2008, 07:42 AM
I am quite sure that this was one of Aizens Zanpaktous abilities. It's water type, so other strong water type Zanpaktou should be able to accomplish the same.

Morlun
April 05, 2008, 07:59 AM
wow so as ur saying ur presuming that urahara is a traitor? or some sort of bad guy in the long run for the winter war? yikes that would be pretty much make me feel dumbfounded since urahara isnt the type to do so :oh

I'm not so much "presuming", 'cause I haven't the slightest shred of evidence to do so, but hypothesizing. And yeah, it would be dumbfounding. As much as Aizen being alive and evil and Isshin a shinigami. It probably won't happen, but still, what we know of Urahara is that his ethics and morality are pretty skewed. Add that to Shinji's comment in this chapter, and to the fact that we do not know what makes Urahara tick, what his motives are... I dunno.

Oh, and Shinji is seeming more shady as well.

Sarmad
April 05, 2008, 08:34 AM
@ Morlun:

I'm pretty sure that Urahara isn't on "Aizen's side".

Ignoring the fact that Yoruichi, Isshin, kukaku Shiba and many more trust Urahara, there are scenes in the manga, in which Urahara comments on something without anybody listenening, that indicates that he really does care about his "friends" and about a lot of things. ^^
That is why i'm even more sure that urahara won't turn out to be evil ;)

Morlun
April 05, 2008, 08:41 AM
@ Morlun:

I'm pretty sure that Urahara isn't on "Aizen's side".

Ignoring the fact that Yoruichi, Isshin, kukaku Shiba and many more trust Urahara, there are scenes in the manga, in which Urahara comments on something without anybody listenening, that indicates that he really does care about his "friends" and about a lot of things. ^^
That is why i'm even more sure that urahara won't turn out to be evil ;)

Many more trusted Aizen as well. ;-P

Anyway, yeah, I know it's a longshot, but I just have that omnious feeling that Kubo's about to smack us in the head with something big, and the only thing that I can come up with is Urahara, the vizards, Ukitake, Isshin or even Yamamoto being evil. It'll probably be something completely different, I know, but something's coming, and I'm like a rat in panic, trying to find out where it's coming from. :)

Sarmad
April 05, 2008, 09:06 AM
;D

Well i thought that this Soul Society flashback had its impact on the readers ^^ .. i don't know if we could expect something bigger in terms of surpirising revelations ;)

Morlun
April 05, 2008, 09:16 AM
Well, that the guys were Captains, we didn't know about, and that was surprising... but we knew they were shinigami once, and that a flashback arc was coming sooner or later. While some stuff was definitely surprising (6 vizards revealed already, 4 were captains, 2 vice-captains), it's not to the level of the two biggest shockers of the series, I think. Besides, if Kubo is opening the arc with some twists... how do you think he'll close it? :)

Don't get me wrong, I won't mind at all if "all" we get is character development... but as I said, "omnious feeling". Can't fight it. :D

Saifi
April 05, 2008, 10:48 AM
i think what shinji said was more along the lines of , the squad's strength depends on how loyal your subordinates are but both you and i are one of a kind and dont necessarily have a choice in how our VCs dont like us but we do things our way anyway ! (least thats what i got)

plus i think since urahara was protecting the hogyuku and aizen was after it , i think they are more or less being set up to be opponents .

also i know this may sound funny but what if urahara was refering his subordinates as maggots? (like they do in the army) and hyori would know where they are so he could go n lay down the law for them to follow

Morlun
April 05, 2008, 11:10 AM
i think what shinji said was more along the lines of , the squad's strength depends on how loyal your subordinates are but both you and i are one of a kind and dont necessarily have a choice in how our VCs dont like us but we do things our way anyway ! (least thats what i got)

I got "You've never been that good at considering other people's feelings, have you? (...) I just thought I should stick my nose in 'cause you kinda strike me as myself."

And considering the guy turned Rukia into a container for the hougyoku and tried to remove her spirit power, I'd say Shinji's not wrong. :)


plus i think since urahara was protecting the hogyuku and aizen was after it , i think they are more or less being set up to be opponents .

True, that... yeah, if Urahara was with Aizen, the whole SS arc would make no sense, Urahara would simply have taken the Hougyoku back from Rukia. So, maybe evil, but not with Aizen.


also i know this may sound funny but what if urahara was refering his subordinates as maggots? (like they do in the army) and hyori would know where they are so he could go n lay down the law for them to follow

*pictures Urahara driving people around and yelling "MAGGOTS MAGGOTS MAGGOTS!"*

ROTFLOL

Antillio
April 05, 2008, 11:32 AM
I think both Aizen and Uruhara are Vizards and somehow they will be the ones fighting the final battle. They are both mysterious in there ways and both have a relation with Shinji. Furthermore if there is something weird going on in this story there are 2 persons who knew or heard of it, Aizen & Uruhara they both know far to much. ( could be just me being supersticious but heyy who knows )

Aizen as his VC always sneaking about, i think Aizen knew of Sjinji's plans to gain more power trough hollow transformation and spyed on him. I also agree that Aizen wanted to be found, so that Shinji was led to believe Aizen was weak and he could always discover him.

Uruhara as his '' friend '' , i am thinking about that little chat of Shinji saying they are the same, there obviously is some connection between the 2 and i just can't help but think that uruhara played a major part in the whole becoming a vizard thing.

But what bugs me the most is the off- balance in numbers of good vs evil.
Either a whole knew legion of badguys will be introduced much like the Gotei 13 suddenly has a Division 0 aka Royal Guard or alot of good guys will bite the dust.

Doombot
April 05, 2008, 11:40 AM
Ikkaku has been hiding his bankai and true skills from the majority of SS because he wants to stay in the 11th. If they knew he had it they would basically force him to take an open captain's position. So I can easily see that Aizen was able to trick people for so long being the brilliant schemer he is compared the Ikkaku is is just a brute force type of guy that is still able to suppress his real strength.

I actually think if anyone takes up the Captain of the 5th division that they will indeed be a traitor as well. It seem that the 5th has a long history of people doing illegal activities.

I actually think the people that will hold Aizen off is going to Isshin. He's probably also going to be part of the Shiba clan... it just makes sense.

gigantor21
April 05, 2008, 11:47 AM
Yoruichi rocks it better, because she fills it out more. This is to me a bit reminiscent of the thread of which you were Senior VP. :amuse


You know it. ;)


It would definitely be cooler if it were Aizen's shikai being broken, but the only potential problem with that would be that Hirako would then know that Aizen's zanpakutou is not a flowing-water type like he has deluded everyone else into thinking. It is possible that Shinji could have kept this knowledge secret from the rest of SS for some reason, but I don't know why he would.


Well, Jehuty brings up a good point here. Since Aizne's still a VC here, it might not be much of a stretch to believe his fake description because it's not fully developed yet. Ichigo's Shikai was just a replacement for his broken sword until he learned GT.

Also, we see ridiculous applications of physics in shonen all the time. You should check out Air Gear for a litany of examples. :p


Good memory on the Yumichika talk. That is the best idea for the "maggots nest" I've heard yet.

I don't think that the 12th division was probably an experiment-oriented division before Urahara because of Hiyori's reaction to seeing a lab. (Her surprise seemed to be at the fact that it was changed into a lab in addition to the emotional shock of having the room changed at all.) 12th division could have been research-oriented prior to Urahara, but I doubt it. Having Urahara be the one to completely revolutionize the division would make for better story IMO. Hopefully, this gets cleared up in subsequent chapters.


Well, my thinking there was that she was shocked at the dramatic change in Hikifune's room, but you do bring up a good point here. Since we don't know what the division specialized in before, it might have been made into an R&D division from scratch by Urahara. Still, I think that execution ground may have something to do with it, as we've seen no other forms of captial punishment (besides Soukyoku).

I hope we get to see Hikifune and the old Zaraki next week, along with the remaining Vaizards. More on the Royal Guard would be nice, too.

Jehuty
April 05, 2008, 12:02 PM
You know it. ;)




Well, Jehuty brings up a good point here. Since Aizne's still a VC here, it might not be much of a stretch to believe his fake description because it's not fully developed yet. Ichigo's Shikai was just a replacement for his broken sword until he learned GT.

Also, we see ridiculous applications of physics in shonen all the time. You should check out Air Gear for a litany of examples. :p




Well, my thinking there was that she was shocked at the dramatic change in Hikifune's room, but you do bring up a good point here. Since we don't know what the division specialized in before, it might have been made into an R&D division from scratch by Urahara. Still, I think that execution ground may have something to do with it, as we've seen no other forms of captial punishment (besides Soukyoku).

I hope we get to see Hikifune and the old Zaraki next week, along with the remaining Vaizards. More on the Royal Guard would be nice, too.
Something tell me that that isn't the Maggots' Nest. The end of the chapter puts so much weight on the question. If it were, it'd be like, "What is the Maggots' Nest?! Well, it's just something you've seen before. Nothing exciting."

TheChosenOne
April 05, 2008, 12:51 PM
I hope we get to see Hikifune and the old Zaraki next week, along with the remaining Vaizards. More on the Royal Guard would be nice, too.

I doubt that Kubo would speed up the pace in just two chapters, I think the focus will stay on Urahara for some time while transitioning between other captains, and then open the Royal Guard, hope it happens soon, really wanna see Isshin. :)

segarraramon
April 05, 2008, 01:32 PM
hi everyone,

this may be a RIDICULOUSLY bad theory, but its been bugging me for a while so I just need to spit it out!

I've always been really anxious to work out the mystery behind Isshin, so when I saw this picture in -107 I started laughing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v213/JadziaKennel/f1e17a42.jpg


I immediately thought he looked a lot like a younger version of Isshin from Ch 187!
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2755/is2jw6.jpg

Anyways, like I said its probably a stretch and some random guy with absolutely no significance, but wouldn't it be funny if it WAS him?

not ridiculous but if you look at page 15 of cph 187 you will see that his hair line is uneven will the person in your picture is even.

koruma
April 05, 2008, 02:08 PM
I would love if the focus changes to Isshin anytime soon but i dont think we will get it at least till we go back to fake KK town, would be a lot of information in a very short time. My guess is that we are staying with Vaizard for more 2 or 3 chapters. Maybe we can get a bit of Isshin at the final part of KK town fight or right after that, but i don't expect it sooner.

Curufinwe
April 05, 2008, 05:21 PM
What is ichigo mother was the missing captain right now ?

Akasunanosasori
April 05, 2008, 05:56 PM
What is ichigo mother was the missing captain right now ?

I dubt that cuz his mother was killed by a simple hollow and we all know that a captain can not be killed that easily!!

drakend
April 05, 2008, 06:04 PM
I dubt that cuz his mother was killed by a simple hollow and we all know that a captain can not be killed that easily!!
Isshin, who should be quite strong, lost all of his powers for ten years being in the gigai he's in. The same could be for Masaki.
Anyway I don't understand why Grand Fisher didn't eat Ichigo after killing Masaki. That point has remained unexplained: it's as if something/someone stopped him.

Akasunanosasori
April 05, 2008, 06:20 PM
Isshin, who should be quite strong, lost all of his powers for ten years being in the gigai he's in. The same could be for Masaki.
Anyway I don't understand why Grand Fisher didn't eat Ichigo after killing Masaki. That point has remained unexplained: it's as if something/someone stopped him.

LoL cuz he knew that ichi will be the main character in Bleach!!

Grimjaww
April 05, 2008, 06:26 PM
Isshin, who should be quite strong, lost all of his powers for ten years being in the gigai he's in. The same could be for Masaki.
Anyway I don't understand why Grand Fisher didn't eat Ichigo after killing Masaki. That point has remained unexplained: it's as if something/someone stopped him.

Grand Fisher said he loved to kill women mostly, maybe after he killed her he was satisfied and left?

PredakingD78
April 05, 2008, 06:35 PM
I think when bleach is at its end we'll see SS comission a new Squad Ø, consisting of Ichigo & surviving company as well asd a Vaizard or two. They may not be assigned to be the Royal Guard, but maybe a 1st line of defense from real world threats and a alst line from threats with in SS.

Shinji keeping Aizen's Shikai a secret? As there does seem to be a bit of a rivalry between the Gotei 13, I could see a Captain wanting to keep some tricks up their sleeve. And while it may not be the best example look at squad 11. Ikkaku's Bankai isn't known by everyone nor is Yumchica's Shikai. The alternate dimension could be a possiblity, but then we have to content if Aizen himself is an accomplished SS scientist. And while that could explain the "sudden" power boost theory, Shinji tearing away at space and how he knows how uber great the orb is. It leaves open the fact that if he is a scienctist he pales in comparrison to Urahara and is riding on the coat tail of Urahara's research. But for me that's too cliche' and I don't read/watch bleach for cliche'd 1980's cartoon plots. So I have to go with Shinji ripping through his shikai.

Dom
April 05, 2008, 06:58 PM
Both Shinji and Urahara are definitely similar. They always present themselves as just a bit whimsical, and always hide the true extent of what they know. Now, it seems like the captains have a great amount of influence when it comes to whom will be their vice captain. Which begs the question ... did Shinji suspect something about Aizen from the beginning? Or perhaps his suspicions only grew as he spent more time in Aizen's company.

So what do we know about Aizen? We know that he is definitely stronger than the average captain. He brought Grimmjow to his knees with reiatsu alone. He also keeps the Espada in check, when it is clear that they are capable of presenting the captains with a challenge. (By challenege, I'm not saying they are stronger, but they can push the captains into using most of the abilities) I really feel that Aizen is definitely stronger than he lets on during this flashback, but he is nowhere near as strong as he is in the current timeline.

I'm feel like we're going to see some really nice plot twists in this flashback. I have a feeling that Shinji may have had an opportunity to stop Aizen;s scheming ... but perhaps spares him (aka: 3rd Hokage sparing Orochimaru). I also feel like Urahara may have something to do with the Vaizard's banishment from SS. The conversation Shinji and Urahara had between each other seems like too much foreshadowing to ignore. Urahara experimenting on hybridization, and it going wrong and affecting Shinji & Co. would seem likely. All I know for sure is that Bleach has for the first time in a long time offered some substantial story for us to speculate on. Woot.

Curufinwe
April 05, 2008, 07:41 PM
You see i really see ichigo mother as a hollow or she got involve with vaizard because isshin speak like if he was knowing her for a long time

maybe that why they left SS they want to have child or protect them from the true

Jehuty
April 05, 2008, 07:51 PM
You see i really see ichigo mother as a hollow or she got involve with vaizard because isshin speak like if he was knowing her for a long time

maybe that why they left SS they want to have child or protect them from the true
A Hollow with no mask, no hole, and that regular humans could see?

Dom
April 05, 2008, 08:10 PM
Plus, if Ichigo's mother is human, maybe Kubo will call him a hybrid between human, shinigami, and hollow ... which will let his power level go well over 9000 ... >_>

Jehuty
April 05, 2008, 08:14 PM
Since when is Isshin a Vizard, also?

hollowdemon
April 05, 2008, 08:27 PM
well its pretty obvious urahara, yoruichi, isshin, along with the vaizards will be in a major conflict where aizen is involved in the problem is. Why is shinji acting so shady? i cant help but look at him so suspiciously cuz he might have a thought of achieving higher and stronger powers where it resulted them in going against the gotei 13's orders.
It could also lead to something that they did and aizen might've snitched on them or set them up so the gotei 13 finds out what theyre doing (whether its the whole vaizard process or perhaps something else).

hiyori and shinji did have that moment when he was carrying her away from sado and inoue where they mentioned "i hate shinigamis" and shinji replied with "yes i know"
so its only self-explanatory that the gotei 13 did something to them when they didnt do anything wrong perhaps or maybe like i said aizen might've snitched on them

Curufinwe
April 05, 2008, 10:20 PM
what about the fact that aizen trick teh ss to believe they did it on purpose or to solely gain power for there own
them they got misjudge by ss and banish

Tsukisama
April 05, 2008, 10:23 PM
what about the fact that aizen trick teh ss to believe they did it on purpose or to solely gain power for there own
them they got misjudge by ss and banish

I'm thinking something like that probably happened. Given Aizen's treacherous character, it would not be surprising if he had a hand in getting the vizards exiled.

Grimjaww
April 05, 2008, 10:24 PM
what about the fact that aizen trick teh ss to believe they did it on purpose or to solely gain power for there own
them they got misjudge by ss and banish

I really doubt they would banish 5 captains (including Urahara) and a few other core members just because Aizen has "evidence". The authority and word of 5 captains ways more heavier then one VC. This is most likely thing to NOT happen because at this point Yammiji would trust captains over a VC, and it seems as if all of them from what we have seen are pretty well connected.

patedecarne
April 05, 2008, 10:29 PM
The problem I see is that 6 captains had defected, and maybe at the same time; some really great thing happened in SS, and I'm inclined to believe that event is the biggest event in all of SS until now, maybe this event created some instability in SS until now...

Travis
April 05, 2008, 10:52 PM
hiyori and shinji did have that moment when he was carrying her away from sado and inoue where they mentioned "i hate shinigamis" and shinji replied with "yes i know"
so its only self-explanatory that the gotei 13 did something to them when they didnt do anything wrong perhaps or maybe like i said aizen might've snitched on them

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/190/05/

I don't think that happened, unless it was in the anime.

Even if they do hate shinigami, it would have been hard to hide their inner hollow battles, which probably destroyed quite a bit of SS and killed probably a lot of shinigami. That's what I'm guessing anyways.

It's kind of odd that it's happening around this time, though because no captains die except maybe for that old man. Not sure about other VC's and stuff I suppose. But unless they go somewhere else I'm sure that SS gets a good chunk of it destroyed. Maybe they stay in that huge training area where Yoruichi and Urahara hid.

I guess we have to wait and see what happened and why it happened.

Grimjaww
April 05, 2008, 10:58 PM
I'm reading the Shunsui, Ukitake vs yammato fight right now, and the area they go to is in ruins to fight in. As if some huge battle had occurred, and they had the same structure as Gotei 13 buildings, does anyone else think that area and the vaizards are tied, as if they went berserk there?

Jehuty
April 05, 2008, 10:59 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/190/05/

I don't think that happened, unless it was in the anime.

Even if they do hate shinigami, it would have been hard to hide their inner hollow battles, which probably destroyed quite a bit of SS and killed probably a lot of shinigami. That's what I'm guessing anyways.

It's kind of odd that it's happening around this time, though because no captains die except maybe for that old man. Not sure about other VC's and stuff I suppose. But unless they go somewhere else I'm sure that SS gets a good chunk of it destroyed. Maybe they stay in that huge training area where Yoruichi and Urahara hid.

I guess we have to wait and see what happened and why it happened.
That's not a proper translation... instead, it should be "I hate" etc.

Tsukisama
April 05, 2008, 11:08 PM
I'm reading the Shunsui, Ukitake vs yammato fight right now, and the area they go to is in ruins to fight in. As if some huge battle had occurred, and they had the same structure as Gotei 13 buildings, does anyone else think that area and the vaizards are tied, as if they went berserk there?

Perhaps. That area has not been identified as anything. For all we know, Shunsui could have lead them to the outskirts of Rukongai, where KK Town was relocated. Right now, I would just say that is a run-down, deserted area, but anything is possible.

graphic_content
April 05, 2008, 11:33 PM
I'm enjoying this backstory far more than the present events...

i'd have to agree, all this recent back and forth - 'ill show you mine, you show me yours' kinda power exchange can really only hold my attention for so long...

i loved how shinji put aizen in his place w/o ever losing his cool; plus the possibility that aizen's shikai may not have the same hold over shinji as it does everyone else, can make for an interesting battle between the two if kubo decides to take in that direction.

on another note - hiyori is just irritating me; i half wanted to see urahara's serious side challenge her to combat just to shut her up - cause we all know he would have owned her.

i am very much hoping the next few chapters shed light on the Vaizards depature from soul society, Urahara's role in it all, and if possible - a look at the zero division

a side note: zero division; if hikifune's promotion from captain to zero divsion member is any indication that the entire squad is comprised completely of above average captain level fighters - and Aizen is aware of this - I can't imagine that 3 former captains, and three espada members are capable of taking out the entire squad; either way its going to be an amazing battle. :)

patedecarne
April 05, 2008, 11:39 PM
I'm thinking if the RG still exists in the Ichigo's time; if yes, then I'm sure they'll be the greates help against Aizen, but my feelings re telling to me that somehow the RG was disbanded in these past events, and the king is unprotected right now...

TheChosenOne
April 05, 2008, 11:43 PM
I'm thinking if the RG still exists in the Ichigo's time; if yes, then I'm sure they'll be the greates help against Aizen, but my feelings re telling to me that somehow the RG was disbanded in these past events, and the king is unprotected right now...

I doubt the King is left unprotected, it's plausible that maybe a member or so isn't in active duty anymore but the whole squad seems to be too far. :)

Travis
April 05, 2008, 11:45 PM
That's not a proper translation... instead, it should be "I hate" etc.

That's a M7 translation. It also doesn't make sense with what else is being said on the page. Why would Hirako say the thing about just wait a little longer things will change? It doesn't fit in if she is just saying she hates humans and shinigami. She looks serious in the frame where she says humans don't like us and she also looks away in the frame about shinigami like she's sad instead of looking angry and yelling.

Why don't you post the proper translation instead of saying it's wrong?

Tsukisama
April 05, 2008, 11:49 PM
^ Yeah, the royal guard's nonpresence is something that needs to be accounted for. Disbanding the guard sounds reasonable, given our theories about Isshin being in the guard, but at the same time, I don't think that it would disband leaving the king unprotected. I think the majority of the RG is probably in the king's dimension, and that's why they have not been involved in the current affairs.

Kanzen Shinkiro
April 06, 2008, 01:15 AM
I know this might sound dumb but methinks Hirako Shinji > everyone, Aizen included. Upon his introduction, I got the impression Shinji would be das über because he was just so normal. Don't ask me why or how I got that impression. I just had this weird feeling he could mop the floor with anyone at a whim. I could be way off and he could be a total weakling, but I simply CANNOT wait to see him fight for real, masked et al. Should he be immune to Aizen's illusions, I think Aizen would perish in battle against Shinji as I personally don't think much of Aizen as is. Can't wait to see Shinji goes berserker. His reiatsu alone should probably put most average captain level shinigami down onto their knees. Poor Grimmjow, Shinji could probably have blown him to bits without shikai, imagine what he could have done in bankai? I wonder just what kind of beast Shinji's inner hollow looks like...

Doombot
April 06, 2008, 02:05 AM
You don't think much of Aizen? What? The guy has totally been one step ahead of everyone. You can't be serious about Shinji beating anyone with no trouble right? What has given you this idea besides he is able to sword fight well against the 6th Espada that only had one arm at the time? We seen him tear down "perhaps" an illusion from Aizen when he was clearly acting as the man they all thought he was. We don't even know what Aizen's bankai is or if Aizen is even a vaizard as well. He had plenty of time to do hollow training upon himself. Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Shinji is an interesting character but let's not forget the other strong characters.

darkexcalibur
April 06, 2008, 02:36 AM
i'd have to agree, all this recent back and forth - 'ill show you mine, you show me yours' kinda power exchange can really only hold my attention for so long...

i loved how shinji put aizen in his place w/o ever losing his cool; plus the possibility that aizen's shikai may not have the same hold over shinji as it does everyone else, can make for an interesting battle between the two if kubo decides to take in that direction.

on another note - hiyori is just irritating me; i half wanted to see urahara's serious side challenge her to combat just to shut her up - cause we all know he would have owned her.

i am very much hoping the next few chapters shed light on the Vaizards depature from soul society, Urahara's role in it all, and if possible - a look at the zero division


a side note: zero division; if hikifune's promotion from captain to zero divsion member is any indication that the entire squad is comprised completely of above average captain level fighters - and Aizen is aware of this - I can't imagine that 3 former captains, and three espada members are capable of taking out the entire squad; either way its going to be an amazing battle. :)

i think you are on to something here. we know that urahara is banished and cannot return to SS, and maybe yoruichi left of her own will.

and being the scientist urahara is i believe that the creation hogyoku and its use will start some kind of reaction where maybe shinji and the vizards are exposed becoming vizards. this will probably push aizen to gaining the immense strength after being witness.

and with the sudden introduction of squad 0 i believe that the only way the vizard captains was banished (with urahara) was through some kind of royal guard persuasion.

i dont think isshin is in the royal guard at all. since it is mentioned before urahara became captain, and from the grand fisher fight urahara recognizes isshin ( i think he became a captain later). i do believe that he is a captain that probably gave up his abilities and left SS. urahara was banished but kept his powers and benihime, but through the surge of arrancar isshins powers returned. i could see that isshin became a captain during or after the vizards left since shinji did not recognize isshins reiatsu

Neuroff
April 06, 2008, 02:38 AM
That's a M7 translation. It also doesn't make sense with what else is being said on the page. Why would Hirako say the thing about just wait a little longer things will change? It doesn't fit in if she is just saying she hates humans and shinigami. She looks serious in the frame where she says humans don't like us and she also looks away in the frame about shinigami like she's sad instead of looking angry and yelling.

Why don't you post the proper translation instead of saying it's wrong?
It's a mistranslation. Manga-Rain and DB both have Hiyori saying she hates humans and shinigami. What really doesn't make sense is Hiyori saying humans hate them when humans don't even know who they are.

Antillio
April 06, 2008, 03:07 AM
Personally i don't think this royal guard will have all new chars in it. Actually when you think of it all these ppl that we've seen and do not know where to place them, could just be from the Royal guard... Isshin , the Vizards , Uruhara and somehow i'm guessing old man yama, and his 2 best cap's sunhui and the sick dude to be in it aswell.

There's no sign that this Royal Guard is a real new division it could just be a Title for the strongest in SS, just as Youruichi is a 2de div captain and also the cap from that secret service.

MooMoo
April 06, 2008, 03:11 AM
Yeah, I have this feeling that Isshin used to be a RG. There's just something about him that just warrants "bad-ass" all over him.

Morlun
April 06, 2008, 04:03 AM
That's a M7 translation. It also doesn't make sense with what else is being said on the page. Why would Hirako say the thing about just wait a little longer things will change? It doesn't fit in if she is just saying she hates humans and shinigami. She looks serious in the frame where she says humans don't like us and she also looks away in the frame about shinigami like she's sad instead of looking angry and yelling.

Why don't you post the proper translation instead of saying it's wrong?

Here:

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6279/mangarainbleachch19005ta0.png

Do not trust M7 scanlations. Early Manga-Rain scanlations had some problems (mainly because they were translating from Chinese raws, since there were no Japanese raws for them at the time), but by 150, they were pretty much on a roll. M7, however, kept piling up mistakes and is one of the greatest sources of misconceptions in Bleach.

Travis
April 06, 2008, 05:16 AM
It's a mistranslation. Manga-Rain and DB both have Hiyori saying she hates humans and shinigami. What really doesn't make sense is Hiyori saying humans hate them when humans don't even know who they are.
Well in the pic M7 translates that the humans don't like them. That doesn't necessarily mean because they are Vaizards and could be from the reactions they got from Chad or Inoue, or even other humans over the past amount of years they've been roaming around.


Here:

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6279/mangarainbleachch19005ta0.png

Do not trust M7 scanlations. Early Manga-Rain scanlations had some problems (mainly because they were translating from Chinese raws, since there were no Japanese raws for them at the time), but by 150, they were pretty much on a roll. M7, however, kept piling up mistakes and is one of the greatest sources of misconceptions in Bleach.

I find it odd that you say not to trust M7 when ttxdragon was just saying to use something like M7's translation instead of Bink's when talking about Bleach because Bink adds stuff and is very liberal with their translation. Unless you're just saying M7 was bad around this time. M7's translation, atleast I think the past few chapters is pretty close to being the same as Cnet, who translates the chapter pretty regularly.

Antillio
April 06, 2008, 05:23 AM
I am confused are we talking about another picture then the 1 Morlun posted ?
Cause unless there is still alchahol in my blood i'm definatly reading Hirako hates humans and not the other way around.... ?

Morlun
April 06, 2008, 06:04 AM
I find it odd that you say not to trust M7 when ttxdragon was just saying to use something like M7's translation instead of Bink's when talking about Bleach because Bink adds stuff and is very liberal with their translation. Unless you're just saying M7 was bad around this time. M7's translation, atleast I think the past few chapters is pretty close to being the same as Cnet, who translates the chapter pretty regularly.

Yes, at the time. Sorry. I have no idea how they are now, but like Manga-Rain, it is likely that they had a shaky start and then became reliable. But at least pre-220 there were some major mistranslations (that one, Rukia claiming a spot at Ichigo's, and, IIRC, Hitsugaya's explanations about the Menos and Yumichika's comment about Ikkaku's funeral arrangements are a few examples).

And yeah, Binktopia is very liberal. Can't say I'm a fan of that kind of translation. Even if it's hard to translate the meaning of stuff from the original Japanese, I'd rather have a literal translation and a few notes than having someone re-interpreting the author's words. Still, it's their prerrogative to use the translation they want to, so I can't criticize them (nor M7, by the way) for doing the community a favor and taking their time to give us manga in English.

@Antillio: the page I posted is from Manga-Rain. Travis posted a link to the M7 page one or two pages back, and that one says "Humans hate us/Shinigami hate us" - which is wrong.

Neuroff
April 06, 2008, 06:09 AM
Well in the pic M7 translates that the humans don't like them. That doesn't necessarily mean because they are Vaizards and could be from the reactions they got from Chad or Inoue, or even other humans over the past amount of years they've been roaming around.
Us can only refer to them as a group. Humans don't know about them. That statement makes absolutely no sense at all, no matter how you look at it.


I find it odd that you say not to trust M7 when ttxdragon was just saying to use something like M7's translation instead of Bink's when talking about Bleach because Bink adds stuff and is very liberal with their translation. Unless you're just saying M7 was bad around this time. M7's translation, atleast I think the past few chapters is pretty close to being the same as Cnet, who translates the chapter pretty regularly.
M7 recently has pretty decent translations, but their old translations aren't very reliable, and they never bothered to correct their mistakes. There are a lot of mistranslations like this one. Aizen already has 10 vastolordes, needing 1,000,000 mod souls to create the ou ken, etc.

Xerte
April 06, 2008, 06:11 AM
after aizen became captan, and gin his vice captain, ichimaru got promoted to cap lvl..
maybe aizen gave ichimaru the same boost of strenght that he gave to nnoitra..
but...Vaizard left SS to live in human world or Vaizard got expelled by SS ?
it's something different..

Morlun
April 06, 2008, 06:20 AM
While we're speaking about translations, this thread (http://www.bleachforums.com/showthread.php?t=16121) has some very useful explanations and corrections by Pocketmofo. We used to ask him about any point of contention in a translation/scanlation, and he'd clear many doubts. At one point I was even going to make a compilation of it, but I didn't have the patience for that. :)

Jehuty
April 06, 2008, 07:03 AM
That's a M7 translation. It also doesn't make sense with what else is being said on the page. Why would Hirako say the thing about just wait a little longer things will change? It doesn't fit in if she is just saying she hates humans and shinigami. She looks serious in the frame where she says humans don't like us and she also looks away in the frame about shinigami like she's sad instead of looking angry and yelling.

Why don't you post the proper translation instead of saying it's wrong?
Proper translation? Isn't it obvious? "I hate humans." "I also hate shinigami."

It doesn't make sense if she says humans hate them, because humans are not aware of their presence.

Antillio
April 06, 2008, 08:15 AM
Makes you wonder what side the Vizards will choose if they will choose a side at all...

Jehuty
April 06, 2008, 08:46 AM
Makes you wonder what side the Vizards will choose if they will choose a side at all...
I think maybe they might not have had huge Hollow-battles that blew shit up in soul society... they timed the Hollow battles. That kind of gives a hint of stability. Maybe they went mask and Soul Society couldn't look past their masks and acknowledge them as people anymore... and thus, they were exiled. It would really explain their hatred.

So maybe, with this battle, they want to prove their lack of Hollow evil to Soul Society.

AngryChubbs
April 06, 2008, 09:32 AM
Makes you wonder what side the Vizards will choose if they will choose a side at all...

prolly the side with the good guys because them all being former captains means they are good guys. last time i checked, they were training ichigo and fighting off grimm so i guess that means they are "good"

hollowdemon
April 06, 2008, 09:43 AM
yeah most definitely ... it doesnt matter if humans hate them or whatever the whole point is for them to fight off aizen most likely appearing after the espada starts to fight also so no question if they're on ichigos side but who knows maybe they have ulterior motives included :oh

well isshin will be included at one point or the other ... the whole idea of him not being shown yet jst makes me hope that he ranks among the RG since i agree who mentioned that he will be a complete bad-ass when he gets into combat :D

Antillio
April 06, 2008, 09:57 AM
prolly the side with the good guys because them all being former captains means they are good guys. last time i checked, they were training ichigo and fighting off grimm so i guess that means they are "good"

Aizen, Tousen & Gin all former '' good '' guys.

The reason Shinji talked with ichigo is cause they knew '' sensed '' he had hollow powers as a shinigami, thus being much like them. If i'm correct Shinji also said that he would train Ichigo if he would join them. They knew he would go fight vs the Arrancar/Espada so yes they helped him train.

But that could easily be just because they share mutual enemies , it does not nessicarily make them friends. + the Vizards claim to ( hate ? ) Shinigami.
So i'm still thinking the Vizards are in this for there own good, but what that is we will just have to see.

Kanzen Shinkiro
April 06, 2008, 10:21 AM
You don't think much of Aizen? What? The guy has totally been one step ahead of everyone. You can't be serious about Shinji beating anyone with no trouble right? What has given you this idea besides he is able to sword fight well against the 6th Espada that only had one arm at the time? We seen him tear down "perhaps" an illusion from Aizen when he was clearly acting as the man they all thought he was. We don't even know what Aizen's bankai is or if Aizen is even a vaizard as well. He had plenty of time to do hollow training upon himself. Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Shinji is an interesting character but let's not forget the other strong characters.

As I've said, it was an impression. His fight against doesn't prove much other than that he can easily deal with espada level arrancar sans an arm but I don't think it matters much. For the time, it was not like Kubo would have Shinji mop the floor with Grimmjow as it would spoil what is going on now by displaying Shinji's powers too early in the story versus saving them for a grand occasion. Now, don't think I believe Shinji is invincible. I know better than to label a character invincible, especially not Aizen. As the villain, he will lose. That simply can't be denied. It will be most likely Ichigo who will eventually grow to surpass him. I see Bleach much in the same light as Yu Yu Hakusho, so Bleach's final arc will be much like Yu Yu Hakusho's own. Ichigo will learn the truth behind all mysteries, his heritage included, and become a powerhouse. He will clash with Aizen, who sans his petty illusions, won't be a match. Hence why I don't think much of Aizen. His illusions. Everything so far could have been accomplished by just someone who is simply smarter than everyone also but not stronger, and has an ability that is formidable to replace raw strength. Lets not even get into that whole "but Aizen's reiatsu brought Grimmjow to his knees" discussion because I've had enough of that. I mean, for Christ's sake, sure Aizen ought to be at least stronger than Grimmjow and by a margin that ought to make Grimmjow look like a child, so of course the sheer difference in reiatsu ought to down Grimmjow. But Grimmjow is the sixth espada and Aizen is like -2 (as in 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, -1, -2). Ultimately, I am not saying Aizen is weak, I am saying that once his illusionary abilities are overcome he shouldn't present much trouble aside from some 90+ kido which Komamura could survive. Sure, Aizen said the spell wasn't at its full power, but I doubt anyone outside the captain class could have survived it. But guess what? If Ichigo is to even hope to dethrone Aizen, he better be at least above Komamura in power or he won't ever pull it off, and should he somehow miraculously do so anyway, I would be most disappointed.

Tsukisama
April 06, 2008, 10:44 AM
Aizen, Tousen & Gin all former '' good '' guys.

The reason Shinji talked with ichigo is cause they knew '' sensed '' he had hollow powers as a shinigami, thus being much like them. If i'm correct Shinji also said that he would train Ichigo if he would join them. They knew he would go fight vs the Arrancar/Espada so yes they helped him train.

But that could easily be just because they share mutual enemies , it does not nessicarily make them friends. + the Vizards claim to ( hate ? ) Shinigami.
So i'm still thinking the Vizards are in this for there own good, but what that is we will just have to see.

I'm thinking along the same lines. The vizards simply turning out to be misunderstood bad guys would be very disappointing to me. I would like to see them continue to be a separate force with their own agenda. Hopefully, this gaiden makes it apparent what their motives are (at least to some degree, as I kind of like them as a bit of a mystery.)


As I've said, it was an impression. His fight against doesn't prove much other than that he can easily deal with espada level arrancar sans an arm but I don't think it matters much. For the time, it was not like Kubo would have Shinji mop the floor with Grimmjow as it would spoil what is going on now by displaying Shinji's powers too early in the story versus saving them for a grand occasion. Now, don't think I believe Shinji is invincible. I know better than to label a character invincible, especially not Aizen. As the villain, he will lose. That simply can't be denied. It will be most likely Ichigo who will eventually grow to surpass him. I see Bleach much in the same light as Yu Yu Hakusho, so Bleach's final arc will be much like Yu Yu Hakusho's own. Ichigo will learn the truth behind all mysteries, his heritage included, and become a powerhouse. He will clash with Aizen, who sans his petty illusions, won't be a match. Hence why I don't think much of Aizen. His illusions. Everything so far could have been accomplished by just someone who is simply smarter than everyone also but not stronger, and has an ability that is formidable to replace raw strength. Lets not even get into that whole "but Aizen's reiatsu brought Grimmjow to his knees" discussion because I've had enough of that. I mean, for Christ's sake, sure Aizen ought to be at least stronger than Grimmjow and by a margin that ought to make Grimmjow look like a child, so of course the sheer difference in reiatsu ought to down Grimmjow. But Grimmjow is the sixth espada and Aizen is like -2 (as in 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, -1, -2). Ultimately, I am not saying Aizen is weak, I am saying that once his illusionary abilities are overcome he shouldn't present much trouble aside from some 90+ kido which Komamura could survive. Sure, Aizen said the spell wasn't at its full power, but I doubt anyone outside the captain class could have survived it. But guess what? If Ichigo is to even hope to dethrone Aizen, he better be at least above Komamura in power or he won't ever pull it off, and should he somehow miraculously do so anyway, I would be most disappointed.

Although you don't want to acknowledge it, Aizen's display of power against Grimmjow does mean something. You can't simply write off the incident, because Grimmjow is the sixth espada. What does being the sixth espada mean? Sure, it means that there are five arrancar in league with Aizen stronger than you, but that is it. Just because Grimmjow is the sixth espada does not mean he is incredibly weak. He provided a fairly decent obstacle for Ichigo, giving us some idea of his power. For Aizen to completely overpower someone of his strength so effortlessly means that Aizen isn't just a clever guy with illusions, but he has quite a bit of power as well. Taking away the illusions should put him on an even playing field with the top shinigami of SS, still presenting a formiddable challenge without them.

Jehuty
April 06, 2008, 11:10 AM
Aizen, Tousen & Gin all former '' good '' guys.

The reason Shinji talked with ichigo is cause they knew '' sensed '' he had hollow powers as a shinigami, thus being much like them. If i'm correct Shinji also said that he would train Ichigo if he would join them. They knew he would go fight vs the Arrancar/Espada so yes they helped him train.

But that could easily be just because they share mutual enemies , it does not nessicarily make them friends. + the Vizards claim to ( hate ? ) Shinigami.
So i'm still thinking the Vizards are in this for there own good, but what that is we will just have to see.
They knew he had Hollow powers from the start... they knew about getting his powers, Zangetsu, and Bankai... wonder where that came from...?

Schabrak
April 06, 2008, 11:17 AM
@Jehuty: Shinji sensed Ichigos hollow powers/or saw him being one, that is fact... Where did he wrote something about, knowing about Zengetsu?or Bankai?or knowing all along? It should be natural for someone as strong as him, being captain level, having his bankai.

Streifen
April 06, 2008, 11:19 AM
They knew he had Hollow powers from the start... they knew about getting his powers, Zangetsu, and Bankai... wonder where that came from...?

its from the new guy... LOL... :D

Hockeychaoz
April 06, 2008, 11:22 AM
Okay, too many pages to read of comments, so I'm just gonna throw this out there. It could have been mentioned before.


We're given a lot of information in the past 2 chapters, but I think a lot of people are overlooking a very relevant detail.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/317/18/

Hirako beat Aizen's shikai. I think this is a pretty huge detail.
Everyone is basically under Aizen's spell, and got owned by it in the SS arc. Shinji not only saw through it, but then broke it completely.

What do you guys think?

Tsukisama
April 06, 2008, 11:25 AM
We're given a lot of information in the past 2 chapters, but I think a lot of people are overlooking a very relevant detail.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/317/18/

Hirako beat Aizen's shikai. I think this is a pretty huge detail.
Everyone is basically under Aizen's spell, and got owned by it in the SS arc. Shinji not only saw through it, but then broke it completely.

What do you guys think?

It is unknown whether or not that was truly Aizen's shikai. It could have been kidou or perhaps something else. If it was truly Aizen's shikai, then one possible explanation is that Aizen had yet to perfect his shikai back then; however, since everyone in SS thought Aizen's shikai did something different (fog-related), if Shinji did know the true power of Aizen's zanpakutou, it would be somewhat odd for him to keep it to himself and let everyone else be deluded.

Kanzen Shinkiro
April 06, 2008, 11:27 AM
Although you don't want to acknowledge it, Aizen's display of power against Grimmjow does mean something. You can't simply write off the incident, because Grimmjow is the sixth espada. What does being the sixth espada mean? Sure, it means that there are five arrancar in league with Aizen stronger than you, but that is it. Just because Grimmjow is the sixth espada does not mean he is incredibly weak. He provided a fairly decent obstacle for Ichigo, giving us some idea of his power. For Aizen to completely overpower someone of his strength so effortlessly means that Aizen isn't just a clever guy with illusions, but he has quite a bit of power as well. Taking away the illusions should put him on an even playing field with the top shinigami of SS, still presenting a formiddable challenge without them.

His display of power towards Grimmjow to mean means that Grimmjow is simply outclassed by Aizen in every way. It is a situation equal to when Yamamoto rendered Nanao unable to react by simply staring her down and releasing his reiatsu before engaging two more than formidable captain class shinigami in combat. A battle which he could have easily won as both captains should signs of wearing down while Yamamoto himself remained unscathed. I wasn't in anyway saying Grimmjow was weak either. Grimmjow is simply nowhere within Aizen's class, and he was apparently going vasto lorde just before joining the arrancar ranks. That serves to show that Hitsugaya apparently overrated the vasto lorde as saying ten of them could destroy Soul Society when Aizen can boss them around. That in on itself is a clear statement of how strong Aizen is or it could simply mean vasto lorde aren't all that to be bossed around by Aizen (should any of his arrancar be former vasto lorde, however). Either way, all that is beyond my point and opinion. I simply don't see Aizen as all that because I've seen my share of manga villains in this life time of mine, and he is he just strikes me as the mastermind type, not the almighty type capable of obliterating everyone at whim. After all, if he could have done all that, why hasn't he yet? The first thing that comes to mind is the author's will for the sake of lengthening the story et al which is entirely true. But even so, for my opinion of Aizen to change, I would have to see him kill at least one captain class shinigami sans his petty illusions. As you can see now, my trouble with Aizen isn't the character so much as his abilities. Never liked the idea of an master illusionist for an antagonist for personal reasons (i.e. illusion does not equal power when through illusion, you can make yourself into a god but be no more than a mere ant).

Now, back on topic: I predict that the so called maggots nest will be a laboratory of sorts containing all of Hikifune's previous work and experiments. I am beginning to believe Hikifune's work is what led Urahara to discovering the Hogyoku and that the vizard were an accident. I believe the entire thing was made to look like something also by Aizen's scheming resulting in the exiling of the former shinigami who became vizard and Urahara's eventual departure from Soul Society.

P.S. Was it ever announced how long this flashback arc would last?

Antillio
April 06, 2008, 11:43 AM
Why make a elite force that is stronger then you, that would make no sense. Aizen not being Hollow isn't leading cause of the Espada's respect for Aizen, but out of fear. Those who don't follow orders to well tend to die. So either fear for dying cause Aizen has that stone wich he can erase them or fear for his power.

Tsukisama
April 06, 2008, 11:50 AM
His display of power towards Grimmjow to mean means that Grimmjow is simply outclassed by Aizen in every way. It is a situation equal to when Yamamoto rendered Nanao unable to react by simply staring her down and releasing his reiatsu before engaging two more than formidable captain class shinigami in combat. A battle which he could have easily won as both captains should signs of wearing down while Yamamoto himself remained unscathed. I wasn't in anyway saying Grimmjow was weak either. Grimmjow is simply nowhere within Aizen's class, and he was apparently going vasto lorde just before joining the arrancar ranks. That serves to show that Hitsugaya apparently overrated the vasto lorde as saying ten of them could destroy Soul Society when Aizen can boss them around. That in on itself is a clear statement of how strong Aizen is or it could simply mean vasto lorde aren't all that to be bossed around by Aizen (should any of his arrancar be former vasto lorde, however).

I was not trying to imply that you were saying Grimmjow is weak, but just that it seemed that you were trying to dismiss this and still claim that Aizen is weak without his illusions, which he clearly is not.


I simply don't see Aizen as all that because I've seen my share of manga villains in this life time of mine, and he is he just strikes me as the mastermind type, not the almighty type capable of obliterating everyone at whim. After all, if he could have done all that, why hasn't he yet? The first thing that comes to mind is the author's will for the sake of lengthening the story et al which is entirely true. But even so, for my opinion of Aizen to change, I would have to see him kill at least one captain class shinigami sans his petty illusions. As you can see now, my trouble with Aizen isn't the character so much as his abilities. Never liked the idea of an master illusionist for an antagonist for personal reasons (i.e. illusion does not equal power when through illusion, you can make yourself into a god but be no more than a mere ant).

I too was initially somewhat against a character whose powers center on illusions being the prinicpal antagonist, because typically those characters aren't truly powerful but just make themselves seem as such. Aizen, however, is a character I have come to somewhat respect. Unlike most villainous illusionists, he is tremendously powerful without necessarily relying on his illusions, as evidenced from the level 90 kidou spell against Komamura and crushing Grimmjow with just reiatsu. It is not just his illusions that make him so formiddable but also his cunning and sheer power as well, and in unison, they make Aizen a seemingly insurmountable foe. To have any hope of defeating him, one would need to find a way to counter his illusions, but even then, he still would be a force to be reckoned with.


Now, back on topic: I predict that the so called maggots nest will be a laboratory of sorts containing all of Hikifune's previous work and experiments. I am beginning to believe Hikifune's work is what led Urahara to discovering the Hogyoku and that the vizard were an accident. I believe the entire thing was made to look like something also by Aizen's scheming resulting in the exiling of the former shinigami who became vizard and Urahara's eventual departure from Soul Society.

That is an interesting theory. I personally don't think that Hikifune was a researcher, given Hiyori's surprise at seeing laboratory equipment (which did not seem to be just based on the emotional shock of seeing the office changed at all). I'm thinking that the maggots nest is probably something else, not necessarily connected to Hikifune, but you could be correct. I suppose that I would like to believe in Urahara's own ingenuity; having to rely on someone's else research would be somewhat of a disappointment for me.


P.S. Was it ever announced how long this flashback arc would last?

The gaiden is supposed to last about 8 chapters. This, I believe, is based on an interview with Kubo.

Xerte
April 06, 2008, 12:39 PM
In this gaiden part, is Gin already with aizen?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/13/

Here he says that gin was with him as soon as he became captain..i don't know excatly what he means but is a hint
Why would aizen ask gin to became his subordinate and ally..and why would Gin accept? no real reason,only power imo


another thing
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/23/
Here kubo show us how Aizen defeat Hitsugaya during his bankai..Aizen is keeping his zanpakuto,i think it has some offensive power or it wouldn't have destroyed hitugaya in just 1 hit...
if aizen zanpakuto is a defensive type (or illusional) how did he defeat a bankai with just a hit?

Tsukisama
April 06, 2008, 12:55 PM
In this gaiden part, is Gin already with aizen?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/13/

Here he says that gin was with him as soon as he became captain..i don't know excatly what he means but is a hint
Why would aizen ask gin to became his subordinate and ally..and why would Gin accept? no real reason,only power imo

I don't know how old Gin would be at this point. He probably is in the 5th division, maybe even a seated officer. It would be interesting if we got to see Aizen forming his relationship with Gin in the gaiden.

As to why Aizen would ally with Gin, it's anyone's guess right now. It can't imagine it would be because of Gin's "power," since at this point he would not be that powerful and it does not seem that he possess some kind of unique quality that could potentially hinder Aizen's plans, like Tousen's blindess and subsequent immunity to his illusions. My guess is that Aizen just connected with Gin for some reason; perhaps, he saw a kindred spirit in him or something.


another thing
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/23/
Here kubo show us how Aizen defeat Hitsugaya during his bankai..Aizen is keeping his zanpakuto,i think it has some offensive power or it wouldn't have destroyed hitugaya in just 1 hit...
if aizen zanpakuto is a defensive type (or illusional) how did he defeat a bankai with just a hit?

Difference in power. Aizen simply has a lot more reiatsu than Hitsugaya. That is also how Aizen was able to stop Ichigo's bankai with his finger and why Ichigo could not cut Kenpachi when he first tried. It's all about the reiatsu.

TheChosenOne
April 06, 2008, 01:46 PM
Difference in power. Aizen simply has a lot more reiatsu than Hitsugaya. That is also how Aizen was able to stop Ichigo's bankai with his finger and why Ichigo could not cut Kenpachi when he first tried. It's all about the reiatsu.

True, but him being injured and weary likely had some influence since he had just fought an epic battle with Byakuya. :)

Tsukisama
April 06, 2008, 02:04 PM
True, but him being injured and weary likely had some influence since he had just fought an epic battle with Byakuya. :)

It might have had some influence, but that does not diminish that Aizen still only needed one finger. Even if Ichigo was exhausted, that feat still would signify an extreme difference in reiatsu.

Xerte
April 06, 2008, 02:12 PM
maybe he has a iron finger or his zanpakutoh overpower his fingers...

seriously, now that i think, how would aizen block ichigo's hit with 1 finger? it's still a finger! it is explainable if aizen have all of his body as tough as his sword...just like arrancar..this theory was already brought up right? (i don't know)
arrancar : body=tough as sword
aizen too maybe

TheChosenOne
April 06, 2008, 02:18 PM
It might have had some influence, but that does not diminish that Aizen still only needed one finger. Even if Ichigo was exhausted, that feat still would signify an extreme difference in reiatsu.

Actually it does considering the state he was in signifies the substantial drop in his reiatsu. Ichigo exhausted his reiatsu into that last attack against Byakuya, which should pretty much drain all of if not most of his reiatsu. :)

Tsukisama
April 06, 2008, 02:27 PM
Actually it does considering the state he was in signifies the substantial drop in his reiatsu. Ichigo exhausted his reiatsu into that last attack against Byakuya, which should pretty much drain all of if not most of his reiatsu. :)

Ichigo had enough reiatsu to resume bankai, and Aizen stopped Tensa Zangetsu with his finger. I understand that Ichigo was also not at his full strength (far from it), but he had at least enough reiatsu left for bankai, which is still a very impressive feat and indicates Aizen being more powerful.

TheChosenOne
April 06, 2008, 02:35 PM
Ichigo had enough reiatsu to resume bankai, and Aizen stopped Tensa Zangetsu with his finger. I understand that Ichigo was also not at his full strength (far from it), but he had at least enough reiatsu left for bankai, which is still a very impressive feat and indicates Aizen being more powerful.

Ichigo as seen through the HM arc is able to sustain bankai until near death, since he was able to maintain bankai until he lost consciousness after Ulq punctured his body. He is also able to maintain bankai after his ridiculous battle with Grimm where he was extensively injured, Nnoi vs Ichigo mirrors Ichigo vs Aizen, where Ichigo stood no chance due to his prior debilitating and effortful battles. :)

Tsukisama
April 06, 2008, 02:48 PM
Ichigo as seen through the HM arc is able to sustain bankai until near death, since he was able to maintain bankai until he lost consciousness after Ulq punctured his body. He is also able to maintain bankai after his ridiculous battle with Grimm where he was extensively injured, Nnoi vs Ichigo mirrors Ichigo vs Aizen, where Ichigo stood no chance due to his prior debilitating and effortful battles. :)

Quite true, but are you trying to say that Aizen stopping Tensa Zangetsu with his finger is meaningless?

TheChosenOne
April 06, 2008, 02:58 PM
Quite true, but are you trying to say that Aizen stopping Tensa Zangetsu with his finger is meaningless?

To some degree, YES, using that event to extrapolate Aizen's strength is faulty reckoning the condition Ichigo was in, which played an enormous role. We can't say Nnoi would pawn Ichigo even if he was in full strength since nothing implies that speculation, which applies to what happened between Aizen and Ichigo. The suppressing Grimm (along with 90 Spell and what happened with Hitsu) with his reiatsu is likely the only event(s) that holds any true validity in measuring Aizen's power. :)

Tsukisama
April 06, 2008, 03:06 PM
To some degree, YES, using that event to extrapolate Aizen's strength is faulty reckoning the condition Ichigo was in, which played an enormous role. We can't say Nnoi would pawn Ichigo even if he was in full strength since nothing implies that speculation, which applies to what happened between Aizen and Ichigo. The suppressing Grimm (along with 90 Spell and what happened with Hitsu) with his reiatsu is likely the only event(s) that holds any true validity in measuring Aizen's power. :)

Alright, I suppose that it is true. It is not a very good example to use for extrapolation, but I still think it has some value.

patedecarne
April 06, 2008, 03:23 PM
I believe the best example to show how powerful is Aizen is the event with Grimmjow;

Look, Grimmjow is the 6ª espada, and just looking to him, Aizen was able to put him into knees! Did you guys really thought how godly was that? The only people in the whole Soul Society that could resist to such power are Unohana, Shunsui, Ukitake nd Yammamoto, and that's because still we cannot measure their true reiatsu!

If Bleach follows some logic. then Ichigo will defeat Aizen, but looking at his actual condition, I cannot see how many powerups Ichigo need to gain to reach Aizen...

Kubo must work really hard in that aspect...

wismoney
April 06, 2008, 03:27 PM
P.S. Was it ever announced how long this flashback arc would last?

i heard a long time ago that the main manga story was taking a two month break for the gaiden to take place

so one would assume 8 chapters, leaving six left if all rumours check out

Hockeychaoz
April 06, 2008, 04:08 PM
A bit off topic, but did we ever find out what the "else" was in this page?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/178/07/

What was behind the menos?

darkexcalibur
April 06, 2008, 04:13 PM
Okay, too many pages to read of comments, so I'm just gonna throw this out there. It could have been mentioned before.


We're given a lot of information in the past 2 chapters, but I think a lot of people are overlooking a very relevant detail.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/317/18/

Hirako beat Aizen's shikai. I think this is a pretty huge detail.
Everyone is basically under Aizen's spell, and got owned by it in the SS arc. Shinji not only saw through it, but then broke it completely.

What do you guys think?

After a careful look at this page i dont believe that that was aizens shikai being broken.

first of all i remember something in where aizen demonstrates his shikai to all the vcs, therefore putting them under his spell. he would have to use his shikai in front of both urahara and shinji for them not to notice his presence.

second from all the bleach games that i have played, everytime aizen uses his shikai, it distorts and shatters like glass. and after a close look at the page i noticed that aizen stepped out of that rip much like ulqiuorra did from grimmjows pocket dimension.

Oni Shinigami
April 06, 2008, 05:06 PM
Maggots nest? Sounds to me like it could be a holding pen for Hollows. Perhaps this is where Uraharas research begins.

Antillio
April 06, 2008, 05:27 PM
Since Aizen is leading the Espada he must be stronger then them right ?
Why else would they follow him and be bossed around if he was weaker ?
If it's true that he is indeed stronger then Espada #1 then that is tremendous power since the top 3 Espada's power was way greater then the other 7.
This is told by Ullquirora himself when he stabs Ichigo with his hand.

Offtopic:For Ichigo to become stronger i hope he make's a deal with it's inner hollow and that will somehow unleash a new set of powers/moves. I mean i loved the fighting style he had in the fillers with bountu. Ichigo's Hollow is Zenpaki style all the way berserk and always in for more =). As it stands now i find Ichigo way to weak and uses the same lousy bag of tricks, pulls mask zengatsou yadaya...

MooMoo
April 06, 2008, 05:58 PM
^Agreed.

He had a much more berserker style when his hollow took over, and it didn't give his enemies time to breathe. At the moment, Ichigo is too concerned about looking cool, but so far he just tends to get beat up a whole lot...

As for Aizen, I think it's safe to say he's stronger since he was able to bring Grimmjow to his knees with his rieatsu alone.(I think so, anyway, bad memory ><)

Not sure if he's stronger then the Espada as a whole, but individually I have no doubt. I also have an inkling that the 2 other ex-captains are either on par, or more powerful then the top 3 Espada aswell.

Ichimaru we could easily say is, since we've never seen him go hardcore, and for Tousen, maybe some crazy powerjump, or maybe he never showed his true strength, or he madly underestimated Kenpachi, who knows.

Raizen
April 06, 2008, 06:08 PM
I think Aizen isn't stronger than the top espadas, maybe on par but not stronger unless he has vaizard powers.

As for gin and tousen, I say they aren't even at that level. I say at best they are at grimjow or noitora level but not the top three. In gin's fight w/ Hitsu I thought he was fighting serious. Sure he was smiling the whole time but he always does that. I say he is around the strength of at most byakuya. As for tousen, his bankai is strong but again he is not strong

Antillio
April 06, 2008, 06:14 PM
I think it's save to say that even Gin & Tousen are on par with the top 3. It would make no sense that they would be weaker, cause then again whyy would the Espada simply not eliminate them ? It's not like they are in search of more friends or something.

@ Raizen i definatly think Aizen has Vizard powers, he had al this knowledge about heuco mundo and about making Hollow's. My guess is that with all his sneaking he found out about Shinji's method of becoming Vizard. I won't get shocked if Aizen, Gin & Tousen all have masks aswell.

AngryChubbs
April 06, 2008, 06:19 PM
I think Aizen isn't stronger than the top espadas, maybe on par but not stronger unless he has vaizard powers.

As for gin and tousen, I say they aren't even at that level. I say at best they are at grimjow or noitora level but not the top three. In gin's fight w/ Hitsu I thought he was fighting serious. Sure he was smiling the whole time but he always does that. I say he is around the strength of at most byakuya. As for tousen, his bankai is strong but again he is not strong

well im sure they have viazard powers. it wouldnt make sense for them not to considering how aizen is talking about having reached his limits as a shinigami, im sure he has used them for experimentation if nothing else.

MooMoo
April 06, 2008, 06:23 PM
I also believe they're vaizards.

Also for Tousen only being Noitra level, he did lop off Grimmjow's arm and incinerate it...

I think it would only make sense that the ex-captains are powerful, cos how would the last battle be epic if they were only as powerful as people we've seen to be beaten already.

We all know how manga progress, villains just get more powerful and powerful as the plot thickens. Only exception is Yammy, but I think he's been forgotten.

Jehuty
April 06, 2008, 06:27 PM
I think Aizen isn't stronger than the top espadas, maybe on par but not stronger unless he has vaizard powers.

As for gin and tousen, I say they aren't even at that level. I say at best they are at grimjow or noitora level but not the top three. In gin's fight w/ Hitsu I thought he was fighting serious. Sure he was smiling the whole time but he always does that. I say he is around the strength of at most byakuya. As for tousen, his bankai is strong but again he is not strong
I'd wager that he is.

Captain class actually doesn't come to a great amount at the beginning - Ichigo pre-Bankai was at that level. Hitsugaya's up there, but he's young and can't hold Daiguren Hyourinmaru for very long. When you get into the upper tiers of captains, though, you get ridiculously strong characters, such as Unohana, Ukitake, Shunsui, and Yamamoto. So when Hitsugaya says that Vasto Lorde-class Hollows are stronger than captain class, that's actually difficult to wager.

Shinigami are innately superior beings to Hollows. They have Zanpakutou (Shikai and Banka), Kidou, Shunpo, the works When you get into Menos is when they really become strong, but only the Vasto Lordes are any real threat to a captain. Arrancar at Adjucha level are innately superior to shinigami, but only to a point. It must take centuries and endless training for a Shinigami to max out his limits, but once one does, he or she rises above even perfect Vasto Lorde Arrancar. Bankai makes them five to ten times more powerful, and I'll bet Aizen's is even more devastating than his Shikai... you can only imagine how much shit it ruins.

So, logically, the most powerful being is the Vizard, containing Shinigami and Hollow powers alike. You might say the same thing is true of Arrancar, but in truth, Arrancar only receive basic Shinigami powers - Zanpakutou, more human body, shunpo (Sonido). But we've yet to see them use Kidou or anything of the sort... Meanwhile, Vizards are capable of Shikai, Bankai, Kidou, Shunpo, Shunkou (theoretically), and the extremely powerful Cero.

Let us not forget, also, that the mask augments Shinigami ability to an extreme extent. Ichigo was just above Dordoni using his Bankai, but was able to one-shot him in a split second with the Mask. Shinji, as a captain and the "Leader" is probably ridiculously powerful and can compete with the Vasto Lordes. Hell, Ichigo's off to take on Ulquiorra right now (or a century in the future, depending on how you look at it) and since it's the third or fourth time they've met, I doubt Ichigo'll get his ass handed to him yet again, especially not after that dramatic ending to the chapter.

Jehuty
April 06, 2008, 08:23 PM
Woah, dude. Calm it down. No flaming.

Edited to remove flaming ~ Tsukisama

Jehuty
April 06, 2008, 08:32 PM
What?!!! Are you serious?!! I can't express my opinion?!!
What kind of blog is this?!
Quit acting like O5!
Opinion can be expressed respectfully and calmly. Flaming is banned by the Terms of Service. I'd prefer you keep it that way.

TheChosenOne
April 06, 2008, 08:41 PM
I found a different translation (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-197-page-16.html) of what the convo between Hitsugaya and Ichigo during Arrancar arc, does it have any validity. :confused

Saruto
April 06, 2008, 08:45 PM
Opinion can be expressed respectfully and calmly. Flaming is banned by the Terms of Service. I'd prefer you keep it that way.

I'll keep my flaming to a minimum and talk about flowers and the sunshine so that I don't get kicked off.

But, unlike many others I'M JUST KEEPING IT REAL!!!

Edited to remove flaming ~ Tsukisama

Tsukisama
April 06, 2008, 08:45 PM
Jehuty is correct. "Kill yourself" is not adding anything to the discussion. If you disagree with a post, state you disagree and support your argument with logic and canonical evidence. Such talk will not be permitted in the future; so, please try to express your opinions in a civil manner. :hbunny

MooMoo
April 06, 2008, 08:49 PM
Like others have said, you disagreed, but failed to give any constructive criticism or a valid argument. Valid being supported with evidence.

Also, posting like that makes you seem less credible.

Back on topic, what happened to Yammy? Or did I miss him in recent chapters? I think maybe I was too busy oggling the top 3 espada.

EDIT: About that other translation, I think it's been confirmed that the real translation was more like "IF Aizen had 10 vastoroodes, then SS would be doomed." The actual Japanese version never actually said Aizen HAS 10 of them.

To note tho, Ulquiorra's shadow looks exactly like the shadow.

Tsukisama
April 06, 2008, 08:52 PM
Back on topic, what happened to Yammy? Or did I miss him in recent chapters? I think maybe I was too busy oggling the top 3 espada.

His absence is really quite suspicious. He has not been seen anywhere for quite some time. He is not that intelligent or powerful; so, I can't imagine him doing something important, like a secret mission, but I imagine he should be doing something at this time. I'm beginning to think Aizen or someone else just got annoyed with him and killed him offscreen. :amuse

TheChosenOne
April 06, 2008, 08:56 PM
I'm beginning to think Aizen or someone else just got annoyed with him and killed him offscreen. :amuse

That would be perfectly fine even though Chad wouldn't get the revenge kill, wouldn't really influence the plot heavily, so here's hoping. :)

Saruto
April 06, 2008, 08:56 PM
but back to the subject, aizen must have real beef towards urahara 2 be spying on him like that and giving him mean looks lol, maybe shinji is the only one who somehow sees thru him...


Edited to remove flaming~ Tsukisama

Jehuty
April 06, 2008, 08:59 PM
That would be perfectly fine even though Chad wouldn't get the revenge kill, wouldn't really influence the plot heavily, so here's hoping. :)
Hey yeah, I totally forgot about that. Yammy tore Chad's arm off... he should pay back the favor!

Edited to remove flaming~ Tsukisama

TheChosenOne
April 06, 2008, 09:00 PM
but back to the subject, aizen must have real beef towards urahara 2 be spying on him like that and giving him mean looks lol, maybe shinji is the only one who somehow sees thru him...I don't think he has conflict with Urahara, he seems to be just curiously interested. :)

Edited to remove flaming~ Tsukisama

Tsukisama
April 06, 2008, 09:06 PM
Enough. Everyone please just move on and discuss the thread. No further name calling will be tolerated. This thread is to discuss the events of the previous chapter and your ideas on what could happen in the next one; nothing else.

Saruto
April 06, 2008, 09:08 PM
I don't think he has conflict with Urahara, he seems to be just curiously interested. :)

i said that he has beef because if you remember last chapter he was curiously interested in urahara but also made fun of him

Edited to remove flaming~ Tsukisama

Jehuty
April 06, 2008, 09:10 PM
i said that he has beef because if you remember last chapter he was curiously interested in urahara but also made fun of him

I don't think Aizen really has any animosity for Urahara... if anything, he respects/is grateful to him for creating what he needs/inspiring him.

Edited to remove flaming~ Tsukisama

TheChosenOne
April 06, 2008, 09:19 PM
i said that he has beef because if you remember last chapter he was curiously interested in urahara but also made fun of him

When did Aizen ridicule Urahara, all Aizen stated (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-315.5/page018.html) was that there is more to Urahara. :confused

MooMoo
April 06, 2008, 11:13 PM
Wow, alot of censorship going on.

Anyway, I think Aizen is only spying because he knows that there's more then meets the eye when it comes to Urahara.

ShinigamiAkuma
April 06, 2008, 11:25 PM
Ulquiorra did say the top 3 espadas are stronger than him, but he never stated they how much stronger.

Tbh, ppl make out espada and Aizen as godly-like. But if Ichigo let Hichigo take over then he could easily take on Ulquiorra, his hollow has more effect with the bankai, and his lust for blood.

This gaiden proves that aizen is not unbeatable, shinji saw through the illusion like it was nothing. I wonder what Shinji thought when Aizen demonstrated his shikai (fooled everyone to think it was water-based), cos he can break illusions easily.

But next chapter is going to be exciting... because the "Maggots Nest" , (i presume) means HM.... because Hollows are like maggots! That is where all the research began!

akatsuki27
April 06, 2008, 11:56 PM
i have a question....where is it clear that aizen put up an illusion to hide his presence??? i know it's easy to assume thats what he did since we know what his zanpakuto power is but that isnt an illusion if you ask me....also, if you think about it, when did aizen release in front of urahara??? how could he make the illusion to hide his presence from urahara if we dont even know if urahara has ever seen aizen's shikai...it's not like he was lieutenant of second squad, he was a third seat....point is, what i immediately thought was that was some kidou spell, most likely a hakudou that's used for spying...it being an illusion didnt occur to me at all and yet so many people here are calling it that...dont be so quick to jump to conclusions is what im trying to say basically

bank3r
April 07, 2008, 12:01 AM
I think that the vizards are the strongest of all.

I mean, Shinji was Aizen's captain, and consider that Shinji was already stronger than Aizen at the time, he now also has the vizard mask power.

Shinji and other Vizards definately achieved bankai before they achieved their vizard mask. And from what we seen when the vizard fight, they only release their mask, but not yet shikai or bankai.

So Shinji was already overpowering Grimmjow with just his mask on, what would happen if he release his bankai and his mask together??

Also I we cannot forget about Isshin and Ryuuken, since they must have been a captain before the vizards even came around. Or possible that Isshin was part of the Squard 0?

Streifen
April 07, 2008, 12:05 AM
omg what happened? whats with all the banning?

im going to bet that isshin is not just a captain... i dunno... because maybe that is the reason why ichigo has huge reiatsu...

patastinky
April 07, 2008, 12:08 AM
I think that the vizards are the strongest of all.

I mean, Shinji was Aizen's captain, and consider that Shinji was already stronger than Aizen at the time, he now also has the vizard mask power.

Shinji and other Vizards definately achieved bankai before they achieved their vizard mask. And from what we seen when the vizard fight, they only release their mask, but not yet shikai or bankai.

So Shinji was already overpowering Grimmjow with just his mask on, what would happen if he release his bankai and his mask together??

Also I we cannot forget about Isshin and Ryuuken, since they must have been a captain before the vizards even came around. Or possible that Isshin was part of the Squard 0?

what about ichigo in HM he was already in BANKAI when he hit Ulq with all he had.. Seems to me like the mask is all there is.

akatsuki27
April 07, 2008, 12:12 AM
I think that the vizards are the strongest of all.

I mean, Shinji was Aizen's captain, and consider that Shinji was already stronger than Aizen at the time, he now also has the vizard mask power.

Shinji and other Vizards definately achieved bankai before they achieved their vizard mask. And from what we seen when the vizard fight, they only release their mask, but not yet shikai or bankai.

So Shinji was already overpowering Grimmjow with just his mask on, what would happen if he release his bankai and his mask together??

Also I we cannot forget about Isshin and Ryuuken, since they must have been a captain before the vizards even came around. Or possible that Isshin was part of the Squard 0?

ryuuken is a quincy not a shinigami, so no he was never a captain.....isshin though was probably at least a captain....the popular theory is he was from the royal guard but then how would he know urahara?? it's not like shinigamis just walk in and out of the king's realm like if they were going from the seretei to rukongai from what we can tell....so my guess is he was a captain

Kanzen Shinkiro
April 07, 2008, 12:22 AM
Whatever Isshin was during his time as a member of the Gotei 13, it was definetely something monstrous if Ichigo got his powers from daddy. My current guess is that Isshin may have ranked as high as the royal guard, and no less than captain class. I always thought Isshin would have been 11th Division Captain, and former Captain to the Captain Kenpachi eventually killed. Guess I was wrong as Kenpachi is the current Captain and Isshin has yet to make an appearance. What would be awesome would be if Isshin were just a regular unseated member of 1st Division, but were powerful enough to be a Captain, however, declined the position in order to visit the real world often. I know the restrictions regarding Captain class shinigami and traveling into the real world, but Isshin strikes me as the type who could be quite capable of suppressing his reiatsu enough to travel freely between the two realms. Why? As Isshin himself explained to Grand Fisher, shinigami must suppress their reiatsu as is unless they feel as though swinging zanpakuto the size of skyscrapers around. What I mean is, Isshin could have perhaps devised a technique which could diminish his reiatsu to a level so minuscule that he could go anywhere at will without any major restrictions. It just seems to me that Isshin will either be ranked way high or way low, no in between. Way high because he is probably one of the former top dogs in all of Soul Society and acted as such; or way low because he probably was whilst a powerhouse, too carefree to bother with rank, declining promotions (if that's even possible) as they were presented to him for the sake of freedom (i.e. Captains don't seem to be able to go anywhere and move as freely as one might think, not to mention all the tasks assigned to each individual Captain). Also, I don't think Isshin will have much of a relationship with anyone but such relationships will develop later.

MooMoo
April 07, 2008, 12:33 AM
Whilst true that Shinji DID overpower Grimmjow with mask alone, we fail to account for Grimmjow's release aswell. So even though I'd imagine Shinji would have handed Grimmjow's ass on a silver platter, the gap in between their power is not as big as people make it out to be.

Neuroff
April 07, 2008, 12:39 AM
I found a different translation (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-197-page-16.html) of what the convo between Hitsugaya and Ichigo during Arrancar arc, does it have any validity. :confused
The part where Hitsugaya estimates that Aizen has 10 vastolordes is completely wrong. The other thing people keep getting wrong is in thinking that vastolordes have human form, Hitsugaya only says they are much smaller and about the size of humans.

hyn_pride93
April 07, 2008, 12:43 AM
Whatever Isshin was during his time as a member of the Gotei 13, it was definetely something monstrous if Ichigo got his powers from daddy. My current guess is that Isshin may have ranked as high as the royal guard, and no less than captain class. I always thought Isshin would have been 11th Division Captain, and former Captain to the Captain Kenpachi eventually killed. Guess I was wrong as Kenpachi is the current Captain and Isshin has yet to make an appearance. What would be awesome would be if Isshin were just a regular unseated member of 1st Division, but were powerful enough to be a Captain, however, declined the position in order to visit the real world often. I know the restrictions regarding Captain class shinigami and traveling into the real world, but Isshin strikes me as the type who could be quite capable of suppressing his reiatsu enough to travel freely between the two realms. Why? As Isshin himself explained to Grand Fisher, shinigami must suppress their reiatsu as is unless they feel as though swinging zanpakuto the size of skyscrapers around. What I mean is, Isshin could have perhaps devised a technique which could diminish his reiatsu to a level so minuscule that he could go anywhere at will without any major restrictions. It just seems to me that Isshin will either be ranked way high or way low, no in between. Way high because he is probably one of the former top dogs in all of Soul Society and acted as such; or way low because he probably was whilst a powerhouse, too carefree to bother with rank, declining promotions (if that's even possible) as they were presented to him for the sake of freedom (i.e. Captains don't seem to be able to go anywhere and move as freely as one might think, not to mention all the tasks assigned to each individual Captain). Also, I don't think Isshin will have much of a relationship with anyone but such relationships will develop later.

what is the deal with Isshin...? well I know why everyone is talking about him, but why cant Kubo hurry up and tell us more about Isshin....? *sob* im not complaining but Isshin needs to reveal more about himself in these next chapters because Isshin is a bomb diggady dog. haha

but anyways, I thought that this chapter wasnt all that great because there was no action what so ever, but I thought that the end was a big help for me. Now we know that Urahara did in fact end up finding a way to journey into the "MAGGOTS NEST". hehe.

but can someone do something for me...? what is the deal with Aizen is this chapter? what is Shinji doing is he ripping away Aizens shikai.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/317/18/

side note: OMG!! MY BIRTHDAY IS TOMORROW! WELL IF YOU DONT LIVE IN HAWAII, THEN MY BIRTHDAY IS TODAY. but if youre in HAWAII, I am now 15! whoo hoo! Happy Birthday to me! spazin out

jocouslie
April 07, 2008, 12:56 AM
i dont think it's a shikai. i think it's a form of kidou-based spell. anyway, as for my prediction, maggot's nest is hueco mundo, where urahara will bring some hollows to his lab for his experimentations.

happy bday hyn ^_^

MooMoo
April 07, 2008, 01:01 AM
I think it's easy for people to just assume it was his shikai rather then some kidou we've never heard of.

Remember, for all we know, this may be the extent of his shikai at his current level, similar to Soi Fon's Suzemubachi. Or maybe he purposely let Shinji find him to put him at a false sense of power.

hyn_pride93
April 07, 2008, 01:04 AM
if Aizen really did just let Shinji find him, then thats pretty smart. but if he didnt, then i sure hope that the vizards join in on the winter war because they should be able to see through his shikai

akatsuki27
April 07, 2008, 01:26 AM
what is the deal with Isshin...? well I know why everyone is talking about him, but why cant Kubo hurry up and tell us more about Isshin....? *sob* im not complaining but Isshin needs to reveal more about himself in these next chapters because Isshin is a bomb diggady dog. haha

but anyways, I thought that this chapter wasnt all that great because there was no action what so ever, but I thought that the end was a big help for me. Now we know that Urahara did in fact end up finding a way to journey into the "MAGGOTS NEST". hehe.

but can someone do something for me...? what is the deal with Aizen is this chapter? what is Shinji doing is he ripping away Aizens shikai.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/317/18/

side note: OMG!! MY BIRTHDAY IS TOMORROW! WELL IF YOU DONT LIVE IN HAWAII, THEN MY BIRTHDAY IS TODAY. but if youre in HAWAII, I am now 15! whoo hoo! Happy Birthday to me! spazin out


i dont think it's a shikai. i think it's a form of kidou-based spell. anyway, as for my prediction, maggot's nest is hueco mundo, where urahara will bring some hollows to his lab for his experimentations.

happy bday hyn ^_^


I think it's easy for people to just assume it was his shikai rather then some kidou we've never heard of.

Remember, for all we know, this may be the extent of his shikai at his current level, similar to Soi Fon's Suzemubachi. Or maybe he purposely let Shinji find him to put him at a false sense of power.

if someone would just pay attention to what i wrote in the previous page then you'd see that i already said that it's probably some hakudou or bakudou spell and not his shikai....for him to be close enough to hear the conversation, he must be able to put the illusion on urahara as well and frankly, you dont know if aizen ever released in front of urahara...they may have never met before....it is unwise to assume it's his shikai with so little information

also, MooMoo, there are at least 100 hakudou spells and 100 bakudou spells, and we have heard of roughly ten or so hakudous and less than 10 bakudous (im guesstimating, whoever knows the right amount of shown spells can correct me later if they so please)...so the chances of it being one of those 100 plus spells that we never heard of are quite high than the veeeeerrrrry slim chance of it being aizen's shikai

p.s.

happy birthday

MooMoo
April 07, 2008, 02:28 AM
if someone would just pay attention to what i wrote in the previous page then you'd see that i already said that it's probably some hakudou or bakudou spell and not his shikai....for him to be close enough to hear the conversation, he must be able to put the illusion on urahara as well and frankly, you dont know if aizen ever released in front of urahara...they may have never met before....it is unwise to assume it's his shikai with so little information

also, MooMoo, there are at least 100 hakudou spells and 100 bakudou spells, and we have heard of roughly ten or so hakudous and less than 10 bakudous (im guesstimating, whoever knows the right amount of shown spells can correct me later if they so please)...so the chances of it being one of those 100 plus spells that we never heard of are quite high than the veeeeerrrrry slim chance of it being aizen's shikai

p.s.

happy birthday

lol, I'm not saying I disagree with your post. Infact, I wrote my post pretty much in response to your theory. I was stating that it's just easier for people to assume it's his shikai. I'm not saying it's more LIKELY. It's just easier to assume something that has a much more solid base as opposed to a spell we've never heard of.

Hockeychaoz
April 07, 2008, 04:41 AM
There's no evidence really pointing either way right now.

I figured it this way:
We know Aizen's shikai is for hypnosis and making people see what he wants them to see.
Aizen made himself invisible, seems like a simple task with his shikai right?

I just assumed that was a more probable scenario than a spell we've never heard of.

I honestly never even thought of it being a spell, but now I got something to think about =p.

Antillio
April 07, 2008, 05:20 AM
Ulquiorra did say the top 3 espadas are stronger than him, but he never stated they how much stronger.

Tbh, ppl make out espada and Aizen as godly-like. But if Ichigo let Hichigo take over then he could easily take on Ulquiorra, his hollow has more effect with the bankai, and his lust for blood.

I remember Ulquiorra say that the top 3 Espada's powers could not be recognised vs the rest of the Espada, meaning they are a hellot stronger.
Then if you think of it, they should be.

Aizen + 3 Espada in fake Karakura town VS pretty much the Gotei 13 minus 4 Cap's. If they are not god or semi- godlike this will be the most boring battle ever created. So from that point of view Aizen , Stark , Hallibel & the other must be UBER strong.

patedecarne
April 07, 2008, 07:23 AM
I remember Ulquiorra say that the top 3 Espada's powers could not be recognised vs the rest of the Espada, meaning they are a hellot stronger.
Then if you think of it, they should be.

Aizen + 3 Espada in fake Karakura town VS pretty much the Gotei 13 minus 4 Cap's. If they are not god or semi- godlike this will be the most boring battle ever created. So from that point of view Aizen , Stark , Hallibel & the other must be UBER strong.

Well, don't forget the wild cards: Shunsui, Ukitake, Yammamoto and even Soi Fong, because still we haven't seen her bankai, as well from the others 3

Aizen is strong? yes, indeed, but we cannot measure the true reiatsu and strength from the others 3; Well, captains with more than a thousand years with experience must be really powerful...

drakend
April 07, 2008, 07:36 AM
Well, don't forget the wild cards: Shunsui, Ukitake, Yammamoto and even Soi Fong, because still we haven't seen her bankai, as well from the others 3

Aizen is strong? yes, indeed, but we cannot measure the true reiatsu and strength from the others 3; Well, captains with more than a thousand years with experience must be really powerful...
Yes but all of the shinigami guys in the fake KT have seen Aizen's shikai so they can be hypnotized at Aizen's will. One of the most dangerous illusion is making you believe you're using your full potential and instead you're using only 1/100 of your true strength. This fight is already over, unless the vaizards step in.

vashdestampede
April 07, 2008, 07:40 AM
Hmmm I have a hunch that maybe Aizen's goal is not to defeat all the captains but you just kill Yamamoto. If Aizen is smart enough to know it's a trap then he must want to engage in teh fight still for some reason.
Whether that reason is showing off the force of his top 3 espada, actually believing he can beat all those captains or (as I believe) to kill Yamamoto.

Yamamoto's death would cause quite a ruckus for Soul Society and cast it into anarchy
And if things turn out badly, he could always get negacion again and zip back to Hueco Mundo

I think Ishhin might be someone who respected but clashed with Yamamoto and that's one of the reasons why he left Soul Society

Hopefully these coming chapters will explain more about Aizen
I just can't see why he'd go into a battle with all those captains when he knows what they've done with Karakura town. He either has full confidence of winning with little to no casualties or there's something else he's after besides the Royal Key

Antillio
April 07, 2008, 07:52 AM
I do think old man yamma , ukitake and shunsui are very strong but because it's 4 vs a whole group, something must be in favor on the bad guys. Could be what drakend sais that most of them wil be under hypnosis. Hell maybe he will do some fancy trick that will change appearance of old man yammo into Aizen and the other way around.

Now that i think of it, it's actually quite cheesy that Aizen's power is hypnosion this story can go evry damn we possible think of just because he can use these petty illusions...

drakend
April 07, 2008, 08:18 AM
I do think old man yamma , ukitake and shunsui are very strong but because it's 4 vs a whole group, something must be in favor on the bad guys. Could be what drakend sais that most of them wil be under hypnosis. Hell maybe he will do some fancy trick that will change appearance of old man yammo into Aizen and the other way around.

Now that i think of it, it's actually quite cheesy that Aizen's power is hypnosion this story can go evry damn we possible think of just because he can use these petty illusions...
You're right, but there is one power that's even more cheap: Orihime's power to reject events. It's ludicrous as it's an elaborate way to say god-like power.

Antillio
April 07, 2008, 08:48 AM
Now that you bring that up , the reason they took Orihme was to '' steal '' or duplicate her power... for Aizen's use. Bah i'm not rly liking where this is going.

Tsukisama
April 07, 2008, 09:32 AM
Now that you bring that up , the reason they took Orihme was to '' steal '' or duplicate her power... for Aizen's use. Bah i'm not rly liking where this is going.

Interesting idea. I am not sure exactly how Aizen would have accomplished this. It seems like that would be a big plot development to copy Orihime's powers; so, it would not strike me as something that would have occurred offscreen.
[hr]

I do think old man yamma , ukitake and shunsui are very strong but because it's 4 vs a whole group, something must be in favor on the bad guys. Could be what drakend sais that most of them wil be under hypnosis. Hell maybe he will do some fancy trick that will change appearance of old man yammo into Aizen and the other way around.

Now that i think of it, it's actually quite cheesy that Aizen's power is hypnosion this story can go evry damn we possible think of just because he can use these petty illusions...

Although those three captains are the strongest that SS has present on the battlefield, I would not count out the other captains just yet. Soi Fon has an impressive shikai, a yet unknown shikai, and an exceptional repertoire of hakuda, hoho, and even shunko. If Kenpachi can be given a power up that amounts to using both of his hands, then I'm sure that Kubo can find some way to have made Hitsugaya and Komamura capable of putting up a decent fight as well. As for the fraccion, the lieutenants can handle them. Besides, if the SS crew that is present needs more assistance, they do have homefield advantage and Yamamoto could easily call the rest of the army (Gotei 13, Special Ops, and Kidou Corps) for assistance; individually, the members of the squads aren't that impressive, but if they attack in masse, then Aizen's forces would be overwhelmingly outnumbered.

CheckMate
April 07, 2008, 10:06 AM
I just dont wanna see all the captains (or worse, some of them) are just defeated with a non-bankai attack from Aizen and co.

It is just ridiculuos. Kubo has done it numerous times with Aizen (vs. Komamura, vs. Hitsugaya, vs. Ichigo) and Tousen (vs. Grim Jacko).

I know ppl say this and that, but considering the losers are all captain levels, they should have not been defeated just as like that.
Such disgrace..

ShinigamiAkuma
April 07, 2008, 10:09 AM
I don't think Aizen shikai can completely defeat whole of SS. I mean it's an illusion fine, but with yami-jis shikai it can burn everything around and may possibly break the illusion. He hasn't done so thus far because he wouldn't have known hes been in the illusion.

If it all goes bad for SS, i think the Vaizards will step in, Shinji could break the illusion. And even if that doesn't go well, Royal gaurd has to come into play because they are stronger than Gotei 13, considering Hikifune got 'promoted'.

I still think Aizen got VL hidden in HM like WW. I wonder why Tousen and Gin didn't go to the fake KT. I still think there's more to Gin, I won't be surprised if HE was running the show. One of those, seems to be an underling but turns out to be the main man, like Shogugawa in the days.

patedecarne
April 07, 2008, 10:18 AM
Well, the part with Grimm and Tousen was one of the most contraditory until now:

Cut off an arm while the opponent is distracted isn't exactly what I would call a fair fight

besides, Aizen used Shikai against Komamura, and about the kidou 90 without chant, let's not forget that Byakuya used a kidou level 80 without chant too; Aizen is very very powerful, but if he really wants to defeat the 3 strongest in SS, Shikai wouldn't be enough, I believe..

ShinigamiAkuma
April 07, 2008, 10:25 AM
Of course shikai wouldn't be enough. Otherwise Aizen might as well solo it and wipe out all the worlds. If he doesn't release bankai i'd be surprised.

Come to think of it, Tousen and Gin aint part of the fight, I wonder if they have been given a mission to go SS directly and take some arrancars like yammy and WW. Perfect opportunity now since its vacant there apart from Royal Guard.

Tousen certainly didn't pwn Grimjacko, he caught him off guard. A cheap shot, u may say. That guy is always cheap, like he used shikai on Ishida when he was about to collapse, his bankai is cheap, cheap shot on grimmy.

CheckMate
April 07, 2008, 10:41 AM
Tousen certainly didn't pwn Grimjacko, he caught him off guard. A cheap shot, u may say. That guy is always cheap, like he used shikai on Ishida when he was about to collapse, his bankai is cheap, cheap shot on grimmy.


Yeah the fact that Tousen caught him of guard is very cheap indeed.

Inconsistency, if I may say, is what lack from Kubo. Aizen is powerful, but the fact that SS has been in existance like.. forever, and they were all caught off guard by Aizen just like that. Seems effortless.

So cheap.


As for prediction, I will say Urahara will demonstrate something that makes Hiyori begins to recognize him. And the starting of the Houghyoku tale.. :)

ShinigamiAkuma
April 07, 2008, 10:52 AM
I believe Hiyora asked shinji and other vaizard captains to accompany Urahara to the "maggots nest" aka HM. After doing reseach and experiment, they all somehow gained hollow powers or sth that's why they all got exiled. While Yuruichi didn't go, she just left SS cos of Urahara's treatment.

falizzle
April 07, 2008, 10:53 AM
I think Ichigo's dad might come from one of the noble families. As far as I understand 3 of 4 the noble families have been revealed. The one rukia is a part of, the one yoruichi comes from, and the shiba clan. that leaves one clan we don't know about. Is it possible that Isshin is part of that clan. Also when Ichigo got bankai, Byakuya Kuchiki was asking himself how could Ichigo be so strong and have bankai. he went on to say that only a select few from every generation have the obtained bankai. Also that in noble families where they have more abilities and higher spiritual pressure bankai is still rare. That part lead me to believe that Ichigo and his father are part of a noble clan. One that we don't about yet, thus Ichigo's high spiritual pressure and abilities. Why Isshin is not in soul society, i have no clue. I think he may have broken one of the noble family rules. Like how Byakuya married rukia's sister, he may have chosen to have his powers sealed to be with he human love. Thus it's not spoken of and many people in soul society have no clue. I think the noble families keep their matters secret. That's my guess anyway.

Antillio
April 07, 2008, 11:08 AM
@ Tsukisama

you are right that they will be completely overpowered if it was evry1 vs the 4 baddies.
But Aizen definatly has some wild cards to turn the table.
Imagine the 4 vs the rest and the battle will be over in 1 episode, that will never happen =).

So what remains are a couple of choices.
1. Aizen & Co are indeed Ridonkulous strong almost god - like
2. The forces in Hueco Mundo will be Captured and helt hostage for bargain..
3. Aizen & Co is a mere distraction , Ulquiora was left in charge for Hueco Mundo so that leaves Gin & Tousen to go do w/e evil scheme Aizen told them to do...

i hope it's a version of #3 and Aizen fooled evry1 again.

jocouslie
April 07, 2008, 11:24 AM
gin and tousen not stepping out from the dimension doesn't mean they're not going to battle the captains. they'll be stepping out of there soon. anyway for my prediction, we'll be seeing hachi and the lime haired girl for the next chapter. i don't know what their ranks are, but i'm guessing they're vice captains or maybe 3rd seat.

Non-Life
April 07, 2008, 11:35 AM
I just watched the espada meeting on the Bleach anime, and I think I spotted the remnant of a hollow's mask of Halibel's collar-clasped on her lower jaw. It wouldn't surprise me if underneath her collar, Halibel's got a huge hollow lower jaw. Goodbye every fanboy's fantasy (except in their fantasy they'll just think the jaw's like a clip-on)
[hr]
I just watched the espada meeting in the anime, and I think I spotted a hollow's jaw sticking out of Halibel's collar. It wouldn't surprise me if underneath that collar, she's got a hollow's lower jaw, or mouth. That wouldn't definately take the eyes off the other...ahem..."merchandise"

ShinigamiAkuma
April 07, 2008, 11:40 AM
Ur quite slow to notice her hollow mask.... that's been revealed yonks ago.

I really do think Tousen and Gin will infiltrate SS now

patedecarne
April 07, 2008, 12:06 PM
Maggot nest...

Could be that Urahara is creating hybrids already? I don't think so, surely he wouldn't show such thing to a VC, when he just became a captain?

Well, if the experiments are hollow, then he should show it to all the SS, not only Hiyori...

I cannot say for sure what could be the nest, but I think it's the beginning of the plot...

ShinigamiAkuma
April 07, 2008, 12:16 PM
It's obvious what "maggots nest" is, it's most likely what shinigamis call HM, because they view hollows as low lifes (hence maggots). Hiyori defo knows what he was on about so it's not a new term he made up.

patedecarne
April 07, 2008, 12:27 PM
I believe it's something else; there's no need to name a place "maggot" if the name is already known, and also there's no need to say Maggot, Urahara could just say "Let's go to Hueco Mundo"; I'm sure Hiyori knows about Hueco Mundo...

And the way Urahara said this statement lead me to believe that he wants to show something specific to Hiyori, something to get them closer, as he stated, and a tour to Hueco Mundo isn't the best thing to a friendship, I believe...

ShinigamiAkuma
April 07, 2008, 12:40 PM
It makes the manga more suspense.

Schabrak
April 07, 2008, 01:01 PM
As Hueco Mundo is translated to Hollow World, it can be said, that through the depreciating way shinigami think about Hollows, it is okay for Urahari to call it that way.

DreamPlaya
April 07, 2008, 01:17 PM
hi i am new, i read the disusions since much chapters, but this time i have to say something.

what if the nest of maggots is used like metepher? nest of maggots sounds for me like a place where hollows were born, if they come from the real world to HM,

or a place where gillian where born, its said that they fuse thogether, but where, theres not given a detail. what if there is a place where they go to fuse.

in both possible places there is surily a huge amount to reserch, or show something to hiory

Xerte
April 07, 2008, 01:28 PM
And the way Urahara said this statement lead me to believe that he wants to show something specific to Hiyori, something to get them closer, as he stated, and a tour to Hueco Mundo isn't the best thing to a friendship, I believe...

yes...forcing her to become a vaizard or experimenting on her..
but i don't think that his turning evil will be this soon (if there will be 1)

during the SS vs Aizen we didn't see any vaizard part...
whatever part they'll choose they'll let a part win...
i mean if vaizard choose SS part, then they r going to win, same for aizen..
they r a great ally force for both of them, maybe too great, and with this gaiden involving them, kubo will give them a "side" at the end...
if vaizard will be aizen side, then yoruichi or urahara or king's guard or even king will interfer, or its a obvious loss
if they choose SS part....urahara turn evil and vastrolorde by aizen side?

nawar
April 07, 2008, 02:48 PM
I always wondered if the vaizards might be the royal guard!!!! or something that have to do with the protection of the king

falizzle
April 07, 2008, 03:04 PM
I was thinking about the maggots nest, and like a lot of people i immmediately thought of Hueco Mondo. Then I remembered when the guy from the Shiba clan was fighting the pretty guy from the Kenpachi's group. Sorry I cant remember their names. The pretty guy told him there was a pit that the soul reppers kept captured hollows in, and they would throw people down ther to fight the hollows. Is it possible this could be the maggots nest?

Azhag
April 07, 2008, 03:12 PM
I don't think so, it's a place known by everybody, even for Hiyori... And if Urahara wants to show something new to Hiyori that isn't a strange place... Maybe the "maggots nest" is Hueco Mundo before the SS called it by the name "Hueco Mundo"

Sinister-Seven
April 07, 2008, 03:25 PM
Over on another board, I am having a small debate with someone over the whole Kenpachi issue. I pointed out to this guy that the Kenpachi from 100 years ago is most likely not Zaraki, and someone else came in and disagreed with me. He says that Zaraki is that guy standing behind the Captain of the sixth division, and that he just came in late and did not bother to stand where he was supposed to. Oh, and he left off his the whole Captain robe thing.

So, just curious, did I miss something? I thought after -107 that everyone agreed that it is not Zaraki, based on Tousen's flashback and what not, since if Zaraki was a Captain Tousen would also have to be one, but Kensei is the Captain for the ninth division. But this is the third person I have heard say that it is still Zaraki. I just want to know what the people over here at Mangahelpers think.

akatsuki27
April 07, 2008, 03:35 PM
Over on another board, I am having a small debate with someone over the whole Kenpachi issue. I pointed out to this guy that the Kenpachi from 100 years ago is most likely not Zaraki, and someone else came in and disagreed with me. He says that Zaraki is that guy standing behind the Captain of the sixth division, and that he just came in late and did not bother to stand where he was supposed to. Oh, and he left off his the whole Captain robe thing.

So, just curious, did I miss something? I thought after -107 that everyone agreed that it is not Zaraki, based on Tousen's flashback and what not, since if Zaraki was a Captain Tousen would also have to be one, but Kensei is the Captain for the ninth division. But this is the third person I have heard say that it is still Zaraki. I just want to know what the people over here at Mangahelpers think.

ok, let me guess this straight....someone comes in and tells you that a supposed captain (as ballsy as zaraki) is stading behind the sixth squad captain because he came in late? and somehow he forgot his captain's robe??? lol, and you bought that????? lol, sorry bro but you're worse than the guy who said that cause you actually let it get to you

to clear things up, it is not yet known who the 11th squad captain is, he hasnt been shown but in all likelihood, it is not zaraki