Who could have been Tsubasa?

[SkyValker]

If Tsubasa wasnt the center character of the story, then who would you want to be the main character and why so?:amuse
[hr]
Obviously then the series name would have been diff

[hyuga9]

From my point of view, I don't think anyone can replace Tsubasa as the central character of the story.

[Bogusz]

Munemasa Katagiri °_°

[Blabble]

Captain Matsuyama or Captain Hyuga. I don't see any other people capable of replacing Tsubasa.

Offtopic: Hyuga9 where did you get all those shirts it's awesome...

[tyug]

What about akai? and ishizaki??? you should never forget about the monkeyy!!

[Blabble]

I guess you're crazy then.

[Malthur]

Captain Kaltz!

There's no discussion about that, so pls close the thread!

[SkyValker]

Katagiri? Now thats a very strange answer

[Bogusz]

Maybe not, i think he is the key-character, who had the exercise to make japans soccer better. He had to search for new youth player and he found them. So I must say: He is majorst minor-character in this serie °_°

[futureking]

Either Misugi or Matsuyama. Those two are the most important behind the scenes characters.

Matsuyama has been the vice-vice-captain of the team and managed to keep Japan under Gamo before Tsubasa returned. Does a better job leading than Hyuga.

Misugi is another born leader. In the original CT, he has shown the ability to lead both attacks and defense from the centre while Tsubasa is plain attack-oriented.

And those two have converted to defenders just for the team. That's really big of them.

[azure21]

If you scratch the heart condition, it would be Misugi; Genzo for his leadership and being a representative of Japan; and Matsuyama, another leader.

[hyuga9]

Captain Matsuyama or Captain Hyuga. I don't see any other people capable of replacing Tsubasa.

Offtopic: Hyuga9 where did you get all those shirts it's awesome...

I got them in a soccer jersey store in Hong Kong.

[Blabble]

Are there anymore? Do you have a link for all these pictures?

[SkyValker]

Bogusz, I did not mean to say STRANGE as in STRANGE, I meant interesting. When I posted this thread, I knew max people would say Matsuyama, but I didnt think that would be an answer.

[Yuki_Judai]

Ehm, Hikaru Matsuyama. Because he can be a captain at team.

[Bogusz]

Bogusz, I did not mean to say STRANGE as in STRANGE, I meant interesting.

Hups http://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/icq/icq_25.gif

[SkyValker]

Does that mean Oops?
I kind of like the idea,...
but then japan would have had to win the world youth years ago, in mikami gamo and katagiri's time itself!

[tyug]

haha Santabla, i meant for the t-shirts.

[Tachyon]

Karl Heinz Schneider would have been an excellent choice, and I'm not saying that because he's my favourite character. We've all seen how his leadership can affect his entire team, just like Tsubasa.

[SkyValker]

Great. A different answer at last. Acoording to me the stroy could have been centered at Hyugga as well. But then not considerable things would have changed...

Okay, I will expand this thread now, so that more discussions can take place...
Everyone list their fav real life soccer players if they follow the games, that is...
Doesnt matter how many
[hr]
As for me:

1. Michael Ballack
2. Ronaldinho
3. Thierry Henry
4. Steven gerrard
5. Michael Owen
6. Christiano Ronaldo

[Blabble]

scholes
rooney
zidane
henry
crouch
ronaldinho
christiano ronaldo

[SkyValker]

a lot in common. actually i didnt put in rooney coz i thought then everybody would think i hav all favs....
and didnt zidane declare retirement from national soccer? Thats why i didnt write that,.

[hyuga9]

Ronaldinho
Zidane
Giggs
C.Ronaldo
Nakata
Van der Sar
Henry

[Bogusz]

1. Oliver Kahn
2. Shinji Ono
3. Mario Gomez
4. Miroslav Klose
5. Stanislav Sestak
6. Luca Toni
7. Gerald Asamoah
8. Rene Adler

[Blabble]

a lot in common. actually i didnt put in rooney coz i thought then everybody would think i hav all favs....
and didnt zidane declare retirement from national soccer? Thats why i didnt write that,.

You didn't say to put non retired players.

[SkyValker]

bogusz has nice distinct tastes in almost everything i see.
DARE TO BE DIFFERENT, huh...
You should put that line in your signature..lol

Santabla, actually I forgot to mention that bit, actually I wanted to know people's current favs and not all time favs.
Then my fav is Pele.
Maybe I went a bit too far back, but then who cares...

[tyug]

Notice how Man U has half of your players? lol... I haven't followed soccer in a while, so current players are unknown to meeee.

[SkyValker]

well, then lets ask for fav club teams...
My personal favs are Real Madrid and Chelsea

[Bogusz]

VfL Bochum 1848 (German Bundesliga if someone doesnt know °_°)

[Blabble]

Create another topic since the discussion totally changed.

[ArcticPhoenix91]

I love answering with crazy answers. Misaki Taro or Ryou Ishizaki. Yes I know I'm crazy, don't bother to tell me.

[Yuki_Judai]

I love answering with crazy answers. Misaki Taro or Ryou Ishizaki. Yes I know I'm crazy, don't bother to tell me.

I agree if you choose Misaki Taro. But for Ishizaki........., no comment :D

[Blabble]

Ishizaki, I don't like him too much because he's a titular and the only reason he's there because he was Tsubasa's first friend and Mr Yoichi thinks he's an important character... His growth is unrealistic. He became too good too quickly but I do enjoy his quarrels with Urabe.

If Ishizaki was played as a joker card (For a ganmen block once in a match, like misugi before the world youth), I would have liked him even more.

[SkyValker]

Well, Misaki Taro is another obvious answer...
According to what Shinji and I discussed in the hate or like tsubasa thread, yoichi actually made his main character split in two seperate dudes and tsubasa taro broke into oozora tsubasa and misaki taro...

[Blabble]

Yup. I have chapter 0 but it's in french. Do you want it still? If you want the english translation it's on http://www.geocities.com/raqueltsubasa/

Both Tsubasa Taro and Genzo are fighting for the love of Aki (Ex Sanae)
Ishizaki is a better captain in it too.

I guess you want the chapter so I uploaded it here:
http://mihd.net/me8uzds

[Yuki_Judai]

Yup. I have chapter 0 but it's in french. Do you want it still? If you want the english translation it's on http://www.geocities.com/raqueltsubasa/

Both Tsubasa Taro and Genzo are fighting for the love of Aki (Ex Sanae)
Ishizaki is a better captain in it too.

I guess you want the chapter so I uploaded it here:
http://mihd.net/me8uzds

I ever seen about chapter zero. Hehehe......, I very amused for Aki ^^

[ArcticPhoenix91]

Mm.. what's the proof that he became too good too quickly?
And to the comments for Misaki, no I don't think he's another half of Tsubasa, a flawless one, because I still think that he doesn't have such a strong mentality..

[Blabble]

ah no, if you saw his determination in golden 23, it comes close to tsubasa.


Ever since Ochado told him he's not a fighter like Tsubasa, his mentality doubled... no... even tripled. Who in his right state of mind would dribble every player of the opposing team after getting injured?

[ArcticPhoenix91]

Eh. You're right about that.
But somehow, the word 'flawless', if directed at anyone, just doesn't sit well with me. Even Tsubasa has his flaws. He gets a bit selfish and individualistic sometimes, as in Nankatsu Chuu vs Tohogakure.

[Blabble]

Perhaps to us it is, but to mr taka, it doesn't seem to be one. He is flawless.

[ArcticPhoenix91]

Yeah, maybe. But Misaki's still my fav, and I like the term 'Captain Misaki'.. haha

[THE KING]

Shingo Aoi,

He's surely got the stuff for a lead.

[ArcticPhoenix91]

Loses his temper too quickly.. and without Tsubasa, there might be a team that beats his team 20-0, and he'd quit soccer.. *shrug*

[THE KING]

Yeah, maybe. But Misaki's still my fav, and I like the term 'Captain Misaki'.. haha

Misaki was not that great when tsubasa was not around,
He lost to hyuga's captaincy 3 times in a row,

[SkyValker]

Hey, hey
That misaki losing to hyugga thing was just coz his team was not that great.
Hyugga had Wakashimazu on his side, who did misaki have?
Sawda Takeshi is a better mid fielder than any on misaki's team.
And soccer is played with 11 players...
Toho had better 10 players than nankatsu, thats it.
also, the author wanted to rush up that bit so he didnt detail it out. The last match was close. It wasnt as if he lost out completely.
And you must take into the fact that misaki had lost purpose at that time. Such down phases come in every sports players' career and keep in mind the fact that misaki is a very realistic character in the CT manga, and realistic players do have bad form phases.

[THE KING]

Didn't Tsubasa beat toho with the same situation twice and drew once.
The teams were the same, just misaki swapped for tsubasa.

The fact is that in the same situation Hyuga could not defeat Tsubasa
Whereas he defeated misaki thrice.

[Blabble]

Hey, hey
That misaki losing to hyugga thing was just coz his team was not that great.
Hyugga had Wakashimazu on his side, who did misaki have?
Sawda Takeshi is a better mid fielder than any on misaki's team.
And soccer is played with 11 players...
Toho had better 10 players than nankatsu, thats it.
also, the author wanted to rush up that bit so he didnt detail it out. The last match was close. It wasnt as if he lost out completely.
And you must take into the fact that misaki had lost purpose at that time. Such down phases come in every sports players' career and keep in mind the fact that misaki is a very realistic character in the CT manga, and realistic players do have bad form phases.

Nankatsu lost 3 times versus Toho with Misaki because Tsubasa wasn't there, not because Toho players were better and it's also just because Hyuga was stronger than Misaki.
Toho has 4 members who are in the Japanese team.
Hyuga, Sawada, Wakashimazu, Sorimachi.
Nankatsu has all 11 members who have been/are in the Japanese team.
Morisaki, Nakayama (A reserve of Japan Youth) Ishizaki, Takasugi, Urabe, Kishida, Taki, Izawa, Kisugi, Misaki, Nitta.

[SkyValker]

Well, maybe thats out of pure affection from my side. But hey, if takahashi wanted to make misaki win, he could have shown that misaki beats hyugga with technique, there are a lot of things misaki has done before which prove that he is at par with hyugga. So, the simple thing is that u cant deny the fact that takashashi is king. Its his choice, who wins or loses, if he wanted he could make ishizaki win over tsubasa.

[THE KING]

Yeah sure:BlahBlah

[Blabble]

na that's just pure bias from your side.

[SkyValker]

no its not. look, you have to agree here that when tsubasa won over hyugga, he had misaki with him and also genzo in the 1st national tournament finals. and when he didnt have him, he lost to hyugga in the earlier rounds. But when misaki faced off against hyugga, he didnt have tsubasa, nor he had genzo. It makes a gr8 difference. And at that time, misaki didnt have high individual abilities to turn the game around on his own. He was more of a team player. What could he do if he passed the ball to someone and he never got the return pass?
So, i agree i have bias, but its not pure blah, blah as you think!
Moreover, its yoichi's choice he wanted hyugga to keep his vow that after tsubasa he wont lose to anyone else in japan.
also, yoichi wants to portray that hyugga is 2nd best after tsubasa in the golden generation and misaki comes 3rd always.

[THE KING]

nankatsu couldn't have defeated toho, without tsubasa.

Since morisaki would have been unable to stop hyuga's shots,
And the re wouldn't be anyone to keep up with hyuga's scoring rate,
Since misaki's shots would have been saved by ken.

[ArcticPhoenix91]

Alright-alright; I'm behind SkyValker on all this; see, soccer is about scoring; you can't win when you don't score. Yet we have to admit that Nankatsu doesn't have a scorer like Hyuga. Misaki, the best in the team's not a scorer type either. And moreover, Wakashimazu can block most of Nankatsu's shoots while Morisaki can't block out almost all of Hyuga's shoots. We can't say Hyuga is better than Misaki! Also, I agree on the Takahashi part that SkyValker had said.

[THE KING]

We can't say Hyuga is better than Misaki!

He beat misaki 3 times in a row,

What else, does he have to do prove, he is better than Misaki?
Beat him in a one on one game like chess.

Hyuga vs. Tsubasa (With Misaki),
1win - 0draw - 1loss.

Hyuga vs. Tsubasa (Without Misaki),
0win - 1draw - 2 loss.

Hyuga vs. Misaki (Without Tsubasa)
3win - 0draw - 0loss.

Hyuga vs. Tsubasa (Throughout)
1win - 1draw - 3loss

Hyuga vs. Misaki (Throughout)
4win - 0draw - 1loss.

Proves, Hyuga is little below Tsubasa, but way above Misaki.

Though I like Misaki more than Hyuga:amuse

[Blabble]

I agree on the Takahashi part that SkyValker had said.

There's no need to state the obvious.

[Bogusz]

I read holanda youth again... he was worse. ... without tsubasa he's nothing, a player playing unter his potencial, i dont understand it. not enough mentality or something else

[ArcticPhoenix91]

Bogusz: you talking mentality?? Read Golden-23. And even worse, "without tsubasa he's nothing, a player playing unter his potencial" then why did he win against rj7 on their second match?? Why'd he have to go around the world if that hasn't changed!!

[Blabble]

Bogusz: you talking mentality?? Read Golden-23. And even worse, "without tsubasa he's nothing, a player playing unter his potencial" then why did he win against rj7 on their second match?? Why'd he have to go around the world if that hasn't changed!!

He was talking about the time when Misaki lost against Hyuga, not the recent Misaki.

[THE KING]

Misaki's character was created just and solely just to support tsubasa,
If I remember correctly, there was always talk about the golden generation and the trio or The GK-MF-ST of Genzo-Tsubasa-Hyuga.

But ever since the inclusion of Shingo as a second partner, and Matsuyama's descent from defender to midfielder, providing another support.
Misaki has been given a little space, may be the fans asked takahashi, to make misaki more stronger, and that's where aoi comes in.

[ArcticPhoenix91]

Yeah yeah sure.
But c;mon, bad mentaliity, who wouldn't be down if you are defeated two years straight?
And if he's that weak, then why'd he reach the finals every year without Tsubasa? He's still stronger than most of the Golden Generation.

[Shinji]

I'm not fond of Misaki, but it's stated that he lost mainly because of the slump he was in. There was no such slump in the video games and he won the championship, against Toho, against Hyuga.
Hyuga was injured during the championship though, that's the thing with CT, you can't really tell who's stronger, with the players having different qualities, roles, and disadvantages.

[Blabble]

Yeah yeah sure.
But c;mon, bad mentaliity, who wouldn't be down if you are defeated two years straight?
And if he's that weak, then why'd he reach the finals every year without Tsubasa? He's still stronger than most of the Golden Generation.

he didn't say he's that weak... that hyuga was stronger than misaki at that time.

[Shinji]

Which is still something you can't be sure of, since we didn't see their true abilities at that time.

[Blabble]

not 100% sure but more probable...

[Shinji]

Even when you consider that Misaki spent 3 years in France while Hyuga stayed in Japan?

[Blabble]

I didn't notice that much of a change when he was in france.

[Shinji]

Yeah, he was just good enough to be the rival of France Jr. Youth's Captain.

[Blabble]

Misaki is the natural rival of Pierre... since Misaki is the only one who was in France during these 3 years.

[Shinji]

Being in France wasn't the only factor. you make it look like Manabu could have been Pierre's rival if he went to France :p Misaki was recognised for his technique by the team that was beaten by Pierre, as well as Pierre himself. Just like Wakabayashi was recognised by his team, and Schneider...

[Blabble]

Maybe Misaki was better or equal to Hyuga, we don't know, what we know is that it's more probable that Hyuga was stronger than Misaki rather than Misaki was stronger than Hyuga. Other factors may have resulted in the defeat of Nankatsu (Example Wakashimazu) but I'm sure it's not the only factor but these factors that we don't know what affected the match cannot be discussed since we don't know them! We can only take the facts that we are clearly presented with and analyze those instead which is: Nankatsu lost versus Toho many times.

[Shinji]

And one of the facts we know of is that Misaki was in a slump :p
You can't just take the facts that are helpful to your own vision of things.

Another fact is that Takahashi allowed Nankatsu to win in the video games.

A fact like a team losing or winning doesn't mean anything if you're ignoring everything else. If you're start stating things like that, it would mean that Tsubasa was better than Santana in the Sao Paulo-Flamengo match.

Now you're free to think anything you want, but that's all there is to it, you can't just say that it's like that and no one else should have another opinion.

[Blabble]

i'm ignoring them because we don't know them. in the match sao paulo - flamengo, it was a lot more detailed. we saw what happened. in the nankatsu toho matches, it was not developed enough.

yes, we can ignore everything else and look at who won if we don't know the details, to get an idea who may be better. of course, that won't be the case everytime.... but that doesn't change the fact that these matches only tilts it in favour of Hyuga and especially when he won all the matches vs Misaki. Again, it doesn't mean hyuga was better than misaki at that time, it's just more probable for hyuga to be stronger.

and if misaki was in a slump, this again increase the chances that hyuga was better than misaki.

did takahashi direct the scenario of the games? Yes or no? I don't know so answer me. Even then, we're discussing about the manga, not the game.

I didn't say anyone else can't have their own opinions. i'm just giving mine on the facts presented.

[Shinji]

We know that Misaki was in a slump, it was stated, so you can choose to ignore it if you want, but that's a fact as well.

What makes you think I didn't understand something? This is an example showing that the winning team doesn't have necessarly the best player.

Yes he participated in the story and artworks, that's why there are so many similarities.
Games are important, since we're discussing about the characters abilities, and I think that Takahashi has a good understanding of his characters' abilities.

Indeed you have given your opinion. But no need to contradict everyone else's opinion afterwards, okay? Everyone knows what you think, no need to get angry when someone have a different opinion. Remember the last rule about a nice atmosphere, please.

Oh, and that's a thing everyone else here should read.

[Blabble]

misaki was in a slump, so he wasn't at his best performance which makes him weaker than he was supposed to be. still counts as something in favour of hyuga.

and again, who did I contradict? Everyone else? Who? No one.

The winning team doesn't necessarily have the best player. I KNOW THAT. That's why I said Misaki may be equal or better than Hyuga. That's the point you're not understanding.

I'm not giving my opinion that Hyuga was better. NO. What I said was, it's more possible that Hyuga was better.

which is why I' m not contradicting anyone.

and if u think games are important, remember the time I told u about the stats of the players in the games which function similar like CT? You told me I should disregard it.

And I'm not angry. Why did you assume that I was? Did I swear or provoke anyone? I don't think so.

[Shinji]

When you're comparing 2 characters, you're supposed to consider what they can do when they are in their best condition.

You're contradicting those who think that it's not necessarly more probable for Hyuga to be better than Misaki. And basically, you're contradicting every post you reply so far.

Stats and storyline are different things. Takahashi didn't program the stats.

Now did you go read this last rule I told you to read? That's what makes me think you're angry: you just keep on answering, contradicting everything I say, keep stating your opinion times and times again, and ignoring the rest.

And don't say now that you didn't say this or that...

didn't say he's that weak... just not as good as hyuga at that time
Now, this sentence doesn't mean that "it's more possible that Hyuga was better".

So go read this rule and please apply it.

[Blabble]

When you're comparing 2 characters, you're supposed to consider what they can do when they are in their best condition.

That's how you compare things, I wasn't comparing anything like that. Why must I compare in their best condition? Obviously, the overall question was Who was better during nankatsu vs toho matches? I just stated a probability that hyuga was better, it didn't ask to take into consideration their condition or not. and why didn't I take into consideration their condition? because it's impossible since misaki was in a slump.


You're contradicting those who think that it's not necessarly more probable for Hyuga to be better than Misaki. And basically, you're contradicting every post you reply so far.

I stated my real opinion on my second post, so you can ignore the first. after that it's you who started contradicting mine. and now i think about it, your post contradicts mine, and mine contradicts yours although it was you who replied to me afterwards which means that all opinions contradict all opinions. ain't it obvious?



Stats and storyline are different things. Takahashi didn't program the stats.

takahashi designed the way ct works, and the video game works similar like ct.




Now did you go read this last rule I told you to read? That's what makes me think you're angry: you just keep on answering, contradicting everything I say, keep stating your opinion times and times again, and ignoring the rest.

you start replying to my post, I reply to yours.




And don't say now that you didn't say this or that...
Now, this sentence doesn't mean that "it's more possible that Hyuga was better".


It was a mistake, but I stated afterwards I meant more probable. look at it yourself.
I said
Now, this sentence doesn't mean that "it's more possible that Hyuga was better.
You said
Which is still something you can't be sure of, since we didn't see their true abilities at that time. (and now i read that post of yours again, check out what i said in reply to your first quote of this post.)
I said
not 100% sure but more probable...

That's it. How this whole thing should end, but now you're accusing ME for replying to your post:
Even when you consider that Misaki spent 3 years in France while Hyuga stayed in Japan?

I replied:
I didn't notice that much of a change when he was in france.

and you went on and on with me.

[Shinji]

Sure, the game works like CT when Matsuyama is unable to keep the ball against three opponents. Yeah, Takahashi made everything in the video games, in fact, he's the whole Tecmo staff. And then you say you're not contradicting everything everyone says...

Now it would be better if you listened to the mod for once and read the rule I'm talking about for 3 posts now.

[Blabble]

ok wait I just noticed something... it wasn't me who said hyuga was better. I edited my post for nothing...
It was ravidjah


Proves, Hyuga is little below Tsubasa, but way above Misaki.



And don't say now that you didn't say this or that...
Now, this sentence doesn't mean that "it's more possible that Hyuga was better".


No actually it's not, because I was only restating what ravidjah said. which is why i told u, the second post was my opinion. no others. and when i said that, you started contradicting me.
I stated my opinion once only. When you quoted my post, you forgot to add "didn't say that" which totally changes the meaning of my post.


and about your rule:


-When an admin, or a mod is telling you that you're doing something bad, even if it's not in the rules section, that's bad. Talking about it here or harass them with PMs isn't allowed.


Yeah right, even when you accuse me of something that you yourself start doing. Contradiction, when you started replying to my only post where I stated my opinion. I was just defending my opinion, you attacked me and then you say I'm the one who's contradicting EVERYONE else? Everyone? Who?



Avoid repeating things over and over again. If you have an opinion, that's nice, but stating it once is enough

which is what I did. The reason I kept repeating it is because you kept discussing it with me.

and as for this one


Sure, the game works like CT when Matsuyama is unable to keep the ball against three opponents. Yeah, Takahashi made everything in the video games, in fact, he's the whole Tecmo staff.

That's why I said similar, not same.

so what really happened, you didn't understand my first post which wasn't about my opinion but rather than restating someone else opinion.

and when I posted my real opinion, you thought I was restating it and that's what caused you to think that I was imposing my opinion on others.

[Shinji]

Okaaaay, then yes, you're right, I'm sorry.

[Tachyon]

Almost turned into a flame war, God bless the internet.
[hr]
Anyway, back on topic. I assume that my list of candidates for who could have been Tsubasa are limited only to the Japanese team?

Well, then Misugi would be my choice... IF he didn't have that damned heart problem. But it's probably been discussed before in this thread.

[THE KING]

Yeah yeah sure.
But c;mon, bad mentaliity, who wouldn't be down if you are defeated two years straight?
And if he's that weak, then why'd he reach the finals every year without Tsubasa? He's still stronger than most of the Golden Generation.

Misaki is obviously stronger than most of the Golden Generation,
Than most
I don't know about others but MY RANK, Leaving aside determination which I think everyone has in abundance.

1. Tsubasa
2. Genzo
3. Hyuga
4. Misugi
5. Aoi
6. Misaki
7. Matsuyama
8. Ishizaki
9. Jito
10.Soda
11.Nitta

[Blabble]

the rest of the team is part of the golden generation too.

[THE KING]

Some international players can also be ranked above him(excluding future prospects)

[Shinji]

ravijha: Did you really feel like Misaki was inferior to Misugi in the international Jr. Youth Tournament?

[THE KING]

Bogusz: you talking mentality?? Read Golden-23. And even worse, "without tsubasa he's nothing, a player playing unter his potencial" then why did he win against rj7 on their second match?? Why'd he have to go around the world if that hasn't changed!!

Misaki isn't that bad to be compared by a performance against a reserve squad.
[hr]

ravijha: Did you really feel like Misaki was inferior to Misugi in the international Jr. Youth Tournament?

Those rankings are just from my point of view,
and since the 1st arc, I've i've always rated misugi, equal if not below tsubasa.
So for me he is definitely better than misaki,(Did misugi take full part in the In.J.Y.Tournament?)

It's just that since he's become a defender now, doesn't mean he can be ranked lower than than the goal scorers or the assisters.

Look at Cannavaro in real life, won the FIFA World Player of the year as a defender.

[Shinji]

I find it weird to consider Misugi so strong when he's sick. Not being able to play for long is a big disadvantage.

It's not a matter of position, it's just that I find that Misaki can do much more than Misugi. After all he became defender because there were players like Misaki in the mid field and even when Misaki isn't here anymore, he's not coming bak to mid field and lets Aoi.

[THE KING]

But didn't he recover from his illness, and is now able to play a full role time in the game.

I guess he gave away the position in the midfield, because being the best tactition in Japan, he knew he was suited for the central midfield role.

Which was already reserved for Tsubasa(can't argue) and the other central midfield role was takan by Misaki who can better assist tsubasa, because of the internal spiritual connection that they have.

As for hi not taking the place of misaki in his absence and letting aoi
Isn't it because he has a new dream now(world's best LIBERO), and he's stuck to the sweeping defenders role. Moreover, since he's coached the team before, he realises the potential aoi can show when he's been paired with his IDOL tsubasa.

[Shinji]

He recovered but with so many years of inactivity, Misaki appears clearly better than Misugi.

Actually, Misugi is the kind of player who can play anywhere. So he doesn't have to stick to central mid fielder, he could play on the sides of the mid field as well.
You're saying it's internal spiritual connection between Misaki and Tsubasa... I say Misaki is the only player who is good enough to follow him like that.

Misugi coached the team, but Aoi wasn't here at that time. And nothing of the sort was stated.

Now don't get me wrong, for me Misugi is a really good player, but he is, at most, on the same level as Aoi and Matsuyama. Misaki is above.

[ArcticPhoenix91]

Agreed with Shinji and all his reasons, especially about the three-years absence. That's a lot, I mean A LOT, of training time. Plus, Misaki's in France for 3 years while Misugi stayed in Japan. Moreover, most people don't notice how good a player should be to logically able to follow Tsubasa's super play. Indeed Misaki's role seems simple: get the pass, pass back to Tsubasa. But to do 'just' that, he must be able to at least:
1. Match Tsubasa's superb speed,
2. Catch Tsubasa's high-speed passes (didn't you see how hard it is for Japanese players who fought China Taipei to do 'just' that)
3. Predict Tsubasa and the opponent's moves to be able to position himself in the right position to help Tsubasa
He's on a higher level than most people think.

[futureking]

I'm diving into this discussion.

Its impossible to compare Misaki and Misugi. In the school days, Misugi's role was as a commander of total football and Misaki's role was as Tsubasa's main assistant. Those two roles are extremely different. Its probably that Misaki is overshadowed by Tsubasa.

Misugi has never formed a combi with Tsubasa but the few times when they worked together were brilliant plays. And Misugi is like a lesser and more defense oriented version of Tsubasa in the World Youth.

In World Youth, Misugi commands the defense line since he's pretty much the only guy other than Tsubasa & Matsuyama who can play defense, midfield and forward all at once. And we can't have Aoi and Misaki reverting to defense.

The defense's main role is to stay back and even the most aggressive defenders do not participate in attacks all the time, especially sweepers. Misugi only runs up when he considers the situation safe enough to advance. So Misugi forming a combi with Tsubasa is totally out of the question.

And while the question remains as to who is better in technical skill and abilities, we can easily conclude that Misugi makes a better captain and leader than Misaki.


Yeah yeah sure.
But c;mon, bad mentaliity, who wouldn't be down if you are defeated two years straight?
And if he's that weak, then why'd he reach the finals every year without Tsubasa? He's still stronger than most of the Golden Generation.

In high school, Nankatsu has absorbed most of the best players of the Shizouka region, include Oodomo's aces. With Nitta(especially Nitta), Ishizaki, Misaki, the Shuutetsu trio & Ootomo quartet, they're no pushovers even without Tsubasa.

[THE KING]

Misugi could match tsubasa's speed even when he was sick.
He could predict tsubasa's sky dive shoot and help in the process.

he was not in a coma for those 3 years, Ronaldo was out of the game for 2 years and came back to score even more goals.

Don't think misaki can keep up with tsubasa in terms of speed, he can understand tsubasa better due to their friendship and uses that to make decisions on tsubasa's play.
When tsubasa makes a pass, Misaki doesn't use speed to follow the ball, he knows from before and heads there just when the pass is about to be made.

The only time I saw misugi play against misaki was when he had that heart disease, and was too much for misaki.

[Shinji]

Well, when Misugi wasn't sick anymore, the only one who was able to follow Tsubasa in terms of speed and stamina against Korea was Misaki.

Misaki not using speed to follow Tsubasa is just a guess, and if he's able to foresee where Tsubasa will send the ball then that would mean that he has better judgement than Misugi, who can't do the Golden Combi. But since Misugi is the best in terms of tactics and judgement, the Golden Combi must indeed be a matter of speed and technique.

Even Tsubasa said that the player he wanted to fight against the most was Misaki...

[THE KING]

It's just my opinion, and that doesn't make anyone more or less powerful in the manga,
No one but the creator can say who will win if we had a one on one,
In soccer, a team wins not a player. Players can win accolades and awards, but a match is won by a team.
I can see Jun winning the best defender award, but cant see misaki winning anything.

[Shinji]

Well, lastly Owairan was the best Libero, not Misugi...

[majed2000]

and misaki was able 2 defet Owiran, that mean he could b better

[THE KING]

I didn't say he was,
I'm just saying he can win it in this wy tornament.

In a 1on1 you win and lose a lot of times.

Misaki lost to owairan too.

You can't judge a player by referencing (like Tsubasa scored 4 goals against ken and since he scored less than 4 against saudi arabia)so saudi's GK is better than ken

[Shinji]

Tsubasa didn't shoot against this keeper, so you can't make this kind of conclusion.

The same can't be said for Misaki and Misugi, since they both had common opponents, beaten by Misaki, and not beaten by Misugi.

[THE KING]

Tsubasa didn't shoot against this keeper, so you can't make this kind of conclusion.

The same can't be said for Misaki and Misugi, since they both had common opponents, beaten by Misaki, and not beaten by Misugi.

Let's take the Semi-Final and the final of tsubasa's last tournament in nankatsu.
Furano's GK Kato and Toho's GK Wakashimazu, has commpn opponents in Tsubasa.
Kato let 3 goals, whereas Ken let 4 goals.
So Kato was stronger than Ken during those days.:blink

[Shinji]

It's more like Kato took 100% of Tsubasa shoots while Wakashimazu didn't.

[futureking]

Minus the fact that Owairan was desperate and wasn't thinking right and had just dribbled past Aoi and Sano, yes. He cooled down by the time he broke through Misugi and Matsuyama.

If it was a one on one, I doubt Owairan would've lost.

Edit: We're going nowhere. Are we? Arguments between fanboys never end.

[Shinji]

Well, I just find it weird for people to find that Misaki is so weak when he did so much more than many strong characters...

[THE KING]

Misaki is great, it's just that I find jun more capable than him.
I don't mind if other's don't agree.
[hr]
Misaki is great, it's just that I find jun more capable than him.
I don't mind if other's don't agree.

[Blabble]

actually misaki is too great for me... he's starting to piss me off.