PDA

View Full Version : Division Zero "The Royal Guard"



Ken-Oh
April 10, 2008, 12:31 PM
Just thought id get my ideas on this out an see what other people have to think.

Alot of people seem to think that the Royal Guard is entirely made up of Captain class Shinigami, i heavily doubt this. If the Royal Guard was made up entirely of Captain class Shinigami then why would Soul Society be so concerned about Aizen invading the King's Dimension? With a division made entirely of Captain level shinigami allied with the Gotei 13, Aizen would only stand a chance if he had several Vasto Lorde level Arrancar as well as his Espada.

Its safe to assume that the Kings dimension has its own population, some of these would inherently be members of the Royal Guard. Members of the noble familes would also be likely members of the division considering they must have some link to the King to carry the title of a Noble.

The way i see the Royal Guard is this.

Captain - Former Commander-General or someone of a equivocal power within the Royal family or the Noble's.

Vice-Captain - Former Captain, possibly a previous Kenpachi or holder of another prestigous title.

Seated Officers - Former Captain or Vice-Captains and possibly Shinigami who began in Division Zero.

Regular Division Members - Vice-Captain or Officer class, mixture of recruits from both Soul Society and the Kings Dimension.

The Division Zero is likely smaller than the others which are each several hundred strong. I think it would be split into several small twenty or so strong specialist units each headed up by a different officer. In other words a condensed Gotei 13. They would probably be divided up into a Bodyguard detail, tactical unit, elite Kidou users and a main combat unit as well as both elite close and ranged combat units. There would be little need for medical units as the Royal Guard appears to be the last line of defense and are most definately the least active Division. The elite Kidou and main combat units would likely inlcude some medical personal to compensate.

So his my overall view of Division Zero.

Captain - Oversees and controls the activities of the Royal Guard, acts as liason to the King but controls the Division independantly.

Vice-Captain - Head of the Royal Bodyguard detail and liases between units to maintain a secure environment within the Kings Dimension.

3rd Seat - Liason Officer to Soul Scoiety, acts as political and military advisor to the King as well as the Captain.

4th Seat - Head of the tactical unit inlcuding espionage and specialist combat operatives. Simmilar to the 2nd Division and Special Forces.

5th Seat - Head of Kidou unit including scientists, senkaimon openers, healers etc. A combination of the 4th and 12th Divisions as well as the Kidou Corps.

6th Seat - Head of Elite close-combat unit. Essentialy a scaled down 11th Division.

7th Seat - Head of Elite ranged-combat unit. Made up of high level users of long range Zanpakuto and Kidou.

8th Seat - Head of Main combat unit. Simmilar to Divisions such as the 10th which seem to have no specific purpose other than as millitary personal.

patedecarne
April 10, 2008, 02:18 PM
Good Analysis, Ken-oh, about RG, but IMO, I believe the RG has about 5, 7 members, and all of his members are above average captain class members;

About the SS concerning about Aizen: I believe somehow the RG was disbanded in some time in the past; the reasons seems unclear to me until the moment, but I think Aizen has something to do with this;

Or:

If the RG still exists, they're in another dimension, and have little to no contact to SS, the concerning could be only in SS side, maybe the king's dimension hasn't any worries until now because the king believes in the power of RG;

Tsukisama
April 10, 2008, 02:42 PM
An interesting read. :hbunny

I still believe that the Royal Guard is made of only captain-class shinigami, based on induction from what we've heard about the RG recently and based on it making the most since to have only the strongest possible shinigami as a part of such an illustrious division.

The reason that Gotei 13 is making such a big deal about Aizen trying to reach the King's dimension is because that is the purpose of Gotei 13. They are the army of Soul Society, the army of the King. They aren't just going to sit back and ignore their duties just because the Royal Guard might be able to handle it.

Ken-Oh
April 10, 2008, 05:28 PM
Both good points, i never realy considered the Royal Guard as such a small group. I just pictured the King's Dimension as a miniture Seireitei so i assumed it may take more than a handful of elite Shinigami to protect. I have to agree that it does seem very plauseable that Division Zero is infact more of a group of elite bodyguards, each being above the average Captain class.

As for the Gotei 13 getting so worked up about it i would say you are wrong. Of course it is their job and they would not lay back and let Aizen invade just cause the Royal Guard could defeat him, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't contact Division Zero for assistance in such a situation. The Royal Guards duty is to protect the King, from a millitary point of view it would be wiser for Division Zero to assist the Gotei 13 in quickly dealing with this rebelion before Aizen could pheasably pose a threat to the King.

This brings me back to the first post, why wouldn't have Division Zero acted in some sort of way by now? With Aizen taking two other Captains and building an elite force of Arrancar to battle the Gotei 13 with, consolidating Soul Society's millitary power would be the only option. Thinking about it there must no longer be a Royal Guard or at least to the extent it once was.

Within the Vizard there are four former Captains that we know of, Shinji, Love, Rose and Kensei. There are the three renegade Captains Aizen, Tousen and Gin. Finally we have Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin living in the real world. In addition to the remaining ten Captains that makes 20 former or current Captains 3 others capable of Bankai that we know of. If there is also a bunch of Captain class Shinigami in the Royal Guard that makes not only Bankai but also that level of power quite trivial.

If thats the case my assumption is Division Zero has been reduced to nothing more than two or three Captain level bodyguards and a handful at the Vice Captain level.

Tsukisama
April 10, 2008, 05:40 PM
Why hasn't the RG made an appearance up until now? Here are some possible answers:

A) The royal guard is supposed to remain in the king's dimension as the last line of defense for the royal family. They are just as removed from the events of the other worlds as the King himself. If they are trying to keep the entrance to the King's dimension extremely heavily guarded, then it is plausible that they would want to limit traffic between the King's dimension and anywhere else as much as possible to prevent allowing someone else entrance.

B) It is a matter of convenience for the plot. If the RG is as powerful as it seems to be, it would not make sense for them to have charged in at this point, as it would take away from the currently established characters the opportunity for development.

I think that you are making a bigger issue of this than it really needs to be. The RG is the new powerful force that Kubo will use as a trump card when he needs them. He is not going to bring them out yet, whether or not it would make the most logistical sense.

eroda
April 10, 2008, 07:04 PM
Some things id like to point out..

i think ichigo is descendant of royal blood, his father being an ex captain promoted, mother most likeley being a daughter of the king, was exhiles from SS etc. due to "Their Love" etc etc etc etc.

gfire2
April 13, 2008, 03:43 AM
well if aizen can stomp gotei 13 that means soul society would be in deep trouble so i assume the royal guards will come out n help wen they are in a pinch

kat_at_heart
April 13, 2008, 09:44 AM
if the rg are made up of captains dosent that mean that aizen is in deep shit, unless he is attacking now becuase he has already killed them or knows that they have disbanded if they were still together im sure he would have made more espada level arrankar before attacking

chorns
April 13, 2008, 10:02 AM
What if the Vaizards are the new Division Zero? That would be pretty cool!

Sirios Whitestrom
April 13, 2008, 12:38 PM
Since Aizen is already aware that the Royal Guard consists of very powerful Shinigami, he's definitely prepared in some way or another. I think it's more likely he desires 10 Vasto Lorde Espada to defeat the Royal Guard than to defeat Gotei 13, since the perfect counter to extremely powerful Shinigami would logically be the most powerful hollows.

I also doubt Issin is a part of division 0, because he states himself 20 years ago he completely abandoned the ways of a Shinigami, including giving up his powers.

patedecarne
April 13, 2008, 01:32 PM
^ Unless somehow the RG was disbanded but unknown reasons in the past; Aizen seems to be so prepared about it: only the 3 top espadas won't be able the defeat an entire RG, maybe in the past, Aizen himself was to responsible for such event...

roxas_strife
April 19, 2008, 12:07 AM
lets review shall we now...
okay first off you guys remember when Aizen left SS notice that no one was able to stop him at all he blocked Ichigo's bankai with a finger clearly he is extremely powerful now lets take a look at what Aizen did in SS he obtained the Hogyoku so he could break down the line between shinigami and hollow with the intention of doing this to himself now lets think of this like this Aizen was strong as they come to begin with now imagine him vaizard...anyways he also created a super strong army of arrancar and is intending to destroy Karakura town surely the Gotei 13 can't let that slide and as for the royal guard I can't really comment on that because we lack details

patedecarne
April 19, 2008, 10:34 AM
With already 4 chapters of Gaiden, unfortunately I believe we won't see much more of RG in this arc...

But somehow I believe Kubo will do a gaiden exclusively to RG. mainly because it is one of the greatest secrets in the series...

And if the RG appears in the main storyline, you can be sure that will be a BOOMM, trust me, in the minimum, will be epic...

Yans86
June 09, 2008, 01:08 AM
The question is really simple,what do u think that are the criteria to enter in the RG???Shunsui said that Hikifune was accepted in RG.....like she asked that promotion...but really don't know what to think!
If in the RG are all captain level Shinigami,why Shunsui,Ukitake,Yammi and Unohana aren't in there....or even Aizen?I mean,they are far far far stronger than a normal captain level and they are captain since 200/300/400 years.......Yammi(2000 years....)!
Do u think that u have to ask for the promotion or u need some particular characteristic???like some specific power of the zanpakuto,high level of knowledge of kidou,swordmanship e other stuff like that.....a really really high level of reiatsu (not sure about that,Aizen has twice the reiatsu of a Captain.....he even didn't know about them 10 years before the vizardification and at that time he was already working at his betrayal because Shinji said that he made him is VC because he didn't trust him...)
What about a third level release......TENKAI (heaven release) which makes your zanpakuto an armor???or other transformation/transfiguration of your power and that of your zanpakuto like releasing the soul inside them or something different.....have u any theories about that???
PS
Sorry for my bad english...

hot_chips
June 09, 2008, 01:13 AM
Criteria: Uber Pwnage
I think you'd have to ask Yama-ji to be a Royal Guard, and some test would be conducted.
Shunsui obviously likes lazy around so he wouldn't ask to be promoted.

bax
June 09, 2008, 01:20 AM
Ah, a good thread with a good question indeed.

First off, if it's just based on power and knowledge, Yamamoto would be easily selected as one. He's no doubt very knowledgeable, and his long life provided him with wisdom. His Zanpakutou is already at a very high level. The strongest of all fire-based swords. We don't have anything but speculations though, sadly. If I'm going to throw a wild theory, I would say Yamamoto was once a Royal Guard. After age caught up with him (or for his own reasons), he retired from the Royal Guard and established the shinigami academy.

I would speculate that the requirements for becoming a Royal Guard is an all-round high ability in every aspects (kenjutsu, kidou, etc), gained enough reputation, experience and good conducts/judgments. As for a specific characteristic, probably. Of course, there would probably be a test or sort for the selection, but I guess the people who are on Yamamoto level, are really rare.

Yans86
June 09, 2008, 02:23 AM
That's for sure!but I don't think that Aizen,Shunsui,Ukitake and Unohana are really far from his level......and about Hikifune Kirio,I don't understand why Aizen said that they were all under the impression that she was retiring and Shinji also said that she was a mom for Hiyori....Was she that old???

Morlun
June 09, 2008, 03:49 AM
I think you'd have to ask Yama-ji to be a Royal Guard, and some test would be conducted.

I hope not. If it's revealed that to be in the Royal Guard all you have to do is ask (and be powerful enough for it), then Aizen going to all this trouble to make the Ouken so he could go into the King's Dimension and kill him would seem dumb.

"Why, Aizen, why?"
"To kill the King, of course. I needed the Ouken to have access to him."
"But... you could have just asked. We'd have promoted you. You'd be by his side in a matter of hours."
"Oh... Uh... I hadn't thought of that. Good point."

Silhouette
June 09, 2008, 06:30 AM
I agree with bax and I would like to add that I think the candidate needs to b relatively easy to replace in SS.

Ukitake is sick and Shunsui is too easy going to be dealing with formalities in the palace. Therefore, Yama-jii and Unohana are ones who were fittest to become royal guards. However, I wouldn't pick them if I had the decision because both of them are very important for gotie 13.

Yama-jii is the depiction of authority itself in SS. His current position allows him to keep all other captains in check and no one but him can do that. Let's not forget that Yamamoto has been the only captain privileged with knowing where the King's key is also because of his history and position.

Unohana is most valuable to SS. Shingamis are always fighting howllows or their enemies and no one is even close to Unohana's skills in treatment or in running the medical facility. Promoting her to become a royal guard will increase the number of the King's gaurds by one but SS will lose much more than just a captain.

If Yamamoto dies, no one will be a better candidate than Unohana to take over. So Unohana is kinda stuck with SS.

Who knows, maybe if the vizard incident didn't happen, one of the current vizards who used to be captains would've made it to the RG.

------------
Off topic: Aizen could've become one of the RG and killed the king if he he was motivated by hatred for the king. But Aizen was not scheming out of hatred. He wants to completely destroy the current system and create a new one where he becomes the ultimate authority over hollows, shinigamis and humans. His previous schemes in SS allowed him to become the ruler of HM in which he has gathered enough forces for the second step to rule over shinigamis.

Morlun
June 09, 2008, 09:53 AM
Off topic: Aizen could've become one of the RG and killed the king if he he was motivated by hatred for the king. But Aizen was not scheming out of hatred. He wants to completely destroy the current system and create a new one where he becomes the ultimate authority over hollows, shinigamis and humans. His previous schemes in SS allowed him to become the ruler of HM in which he has gathered enough forces for the second step to rule over shinigamis.

True, but it would have been easy enough to time the Rukia thing with his promotion (heck, he could have had the "46" promote him) so that he'd have access to the King and could kill him before leaving to Hueco Mundo.

I guess we'll see. Aizen's endgame will probably be elaborated upon and twisted a couple more times before his ultimate demise. :)

Tsukisama
June 09, 2008, 12:49 PM
I agree with the others: this is a very good topic.

My guess is that you would need an exceptional set of skills, a long and exemplary service record, and must impress someone (either Yamamoto, some sort of RG advisory committee, or perhaps even the King himself). I would imagine that Yamamoto would be the one to suggest a shinigami to the RG, and then the RG do some investigation of their own to see if you pass the test.


Ah, a good thread with a good question indeed.

First off, if it's just based on power and knowledge, Yamamoto would be easily selected as one. He's no doubt very knowledgeable, and his long life provided him with wisdom. His Zanpakutou is already at a very high level. The strongest of all fire-based swords. We don't have anything but speculations though, sadly. If I'm going to throw a wild theory, I would say Yamamoto was once a Royal Guard. After age caught up with him (or for his own reasons), he retired from the Royal Guard and established the shinigami academy.

I would speculate that the requirements for becoming a Royal Guard is an all-round high ability in every aspects (kenjutsu, kidou, etc), gained enough reputation, experience and good conducts/judgments. As for a specific characteristic, probably. Of course, there would probably be a test or sort for the selection, but I guess the people who are on Yamamoto level, are really rare.

That is perhaps the best theory that I have read concerning Yamamoto's past. It makes much sense that Yamamoto before starting the academy was a member of the RG. His legendary power and his databook stats, which list him as having reached the pinnacle in all areas and only being somewhat weaker than he once was due to his age, suggest someone definitely worthy of serving the King. This may also account for why he is so focused on following the orders from his superiors if he once served directly under the King.


I agree with bax and I would like to add that I think the candidate needs to b relatively easy to replace in SS.

Ukitake is sick and Shunsui is too easy going to be dealing with formalities in the palace. Therefore, Yama-jii and Unohana are ones who were fittest to become royal guards. However, I wouldn't pick them if I had the decision because both of them are very important for gotie 13.

Yama-jii is the depiction of authority itself in SS. His current position allows him to keep all other captains in check and no one but him can do that. Let's not forget that Yamamoto has been the only captain privileged with knowing where the King's key is also because of his history and position.

Unohana is most valuable to SS. Shingamis are always fighting howllows or their enemies and no one is even close to Unohana's skills in treatment or in running the medical facility. Promoting her to become a royal guard will increase the number of the King's gaurds by one but SS will lose much more than just a captain.

If Yamamoto dies, no one will be a better candidate than Unohana to take over. So Unohana is kinda stuck with SS.

Who knows, maybe if the vizard incident didn't happen, one of the current vizards who used to be captains would've made it to the RG.

------------
Off topic: Aizen could've become one of the RG and killed the king if he he was motivated by hatred for the king. But Aizen was not scheming out of hatred. He wants to completely destroy the current system and create a new one where he becomes the ultimate authority over hollows, shinigamis and humans. His previous schemes in SS allowed him to become the ruler of HM in which he has gathered enough forces for the second step to rule over shinigamis.

I agree with your analysis of the captains' chances of being accepted into the RG. Ukitake's health would prevent him from ever rising to the position. If Shunsui had a little more initiative, he could probably make it in, but I have always seen him as similar to Shikamaru from Naruto: someone with good judgment and plenty of talent but is content and does not put in the effort that would take him from being great to the best.

Unohana definitely has plenty of worth to Gotei 13. She is second in seniority and perhaps second in skill/power after Yamamoto. Her medical abilities are the greatest in SS. Clearly she is seen as a precious asset to SS, as Yamamoto was not willing to allow her to go out into the unknown danger with the rest of would-be vizards. (He was willing to let 4 captains, several lieutenants, and even the head of the Kidou Corps go out into the unknown, but not Unohana which does say something.)

I am not sure what about Hikifune was so special, but she must have been pretty amazing to get promoted.

As for the off-topic part, we don't know what the criteria for entering the RG are. It could be that to get into the RG there is some sort of device or way for them to measure how pure-hearted the candidate is. We know that Hikifune must have been a really nice person, since Hiyori looked up to her as a mother figure (and that girl is not the most easy person to love IMO). Perhaps there was something like this that Aizen simply knew he could not pass.


True, but it would have been easy enough to time the Rukia thing with his promotion (heck, he could have had the "46" promote him) so that he'd have access to the King and could kill him before leaving to Hueco Mundo.

The Central 46 do not have control over the royal guard. The RG and the academy are explicitly listed as the two SS organizations not under Central 46's power; so, Aizen could not have manipulated his way into the RG so easily.

Morlun
June 09, 2008, 01:15 PM
The Central 46 do not have control over the royal guard. The RG and the academy are explicitly listed as the two SS organizations not under Central 46's power; so, Aizen could not have manipulated his way into the RG so easily.

Oh, okay. I missed that. Thanks. :)

patedecarne
June 10, 2008, 08:08 AM
I'd like to think as real life about these topic:

How are people promoted in real life? showing efforts, motivations. And not necessarily these people have more skill than lowers. In fact, people are promoted because they're going beyond his obligations and duties.

To be a RG member, though, I think you still must have at least the same skill from others captains, and you must prove that you're a person who isn't limited to just his squad, but seeing how huge is SS and how important is the king.

Probably Hikifune was more than just the 12º division's captain, she has the skill to be a captain, the motivation to go further.

But this is a point where Kubo should work a little more...

Raizen
June 10, 2008, 12:01 PM
i think everyone has excellent point. TO be a RG, u need to be exceptionally strong and have other characteristics that sets u apart from the rest. But the question is if aizen wanted to kill the king, all he had to do was show his strength and get promoted. Maybe he tried but some captains were suspicious of him and thus they never considered him for it

Yans86
June 10, 2008, 01:48 PM
Unohana is most valuable to SS. Shingamis are always fighting howllows or their enemies and no one is even close to Unohana's skills in treatment or in running the medical facility. Promoting her to become a royal guard will increase the number of the King's gaurds by one but SS will lose much more than just a captain.

If Yamamoto dies, no one will be a better candidate than Unohana to take over. So Unohana is kinda stuck with SS.

Who knows, maybe if the vizard incident didn't happen, one of the current vizards who used to be captains would've made it to the RG.

------------
Off topic: Aizen could've become one of the RG and killed the king if he he was motivated by hatred for the king. But Aizen was not scheming out of hatred. He wants to completely destroy the current system and create a new one where he becomes the ultimate authority over hollows, shinigamis and humans. His previous schemes in SS allowed him to become the ruler of HM in which he has gathered enough forces for the second step to rule over shinigamis.

About Unohana...with her amazing healing power,couldn't be good for Royal guard?I mean,is more important to protect,heal and save the king or to protect SS??Shinigami dies "every" time,the only one fundamental is Yama-ji,the others can be replaced like they always did.....About Aizen,Why couldn't he rule HM and then try to become one of the RG?It would be easier I think to betray the king from the inside instead to make an all out war...He could kill him and then act at his place like with Central 46.....

About Yama-ji it would be really cool if he was in the royal guard....actually this gives me a lot to think,and I have some question and answers that I want to share:
1)We know that the SS exist while exist the Human world....obviously it evolves(like the material world...look at Urahara research....)so...when did they set up Seireitei,Central 46,Gotei 13 ecc...?
My answer is that at a time of the History,the King decided to build in the SS a military structure that can easily control the balance within the Human world and the spirit world,a structure which could defeat hollows before they did to much damage......

2)Who Has sent the king to build up Seireitei???
Some of the RG ruled by some noble family......thanks to those members of the RG he founded Seireitei and he recruit new shinigami....
This would explain why some nobles are in SS and not in the king dimension,why they are involved in important positions and why we haven't seen the other two noble house....

3)Was Yama-ji in the RG?
If we say yes,he possibly be one of the founder of the Gotei 13,the last to survive,the last to know every secret.Moreover with the constitution of
the Shinigami Academy he improved the level and the number of the Shinigami to fill the hole left by the deaths of the first group of founders/shinigami....

4)If Yama-ji was in the RG,could it be that the real requirement is to have the most powerful "elemental Zanpakotu"?actually we haven'tseen thunder,water,earth,wind,lor others like that.....the strongest elemental we have seen are Fire (Yama) and Ice (Hitsugaya) which is a genius,he has before the others captain a Gaiden,he has a movie,he talked with the spirit of the Ice dragon before being a shinigami,but for the moment not a real impact on the story and still to young(according to my theory and for the recent evolutions in SS) to enter and fill a possible hole in the RG .....

5)The other possibility is that the king depart to another more secure dimension and he decided to left behind some nobles and RG to constitute a first barrier between him and hollow/evil/dangerous forces.....which leads always to the others statements...

PS
Sorry for my bad english

hajialibaig
June 10, 2008, 02:02 PM
Royal guards are known as divison 0 right. So like any other division, they ought to have a captain, vice captain, and then the seated people. So, since Hikifune was a captain when she was promoted, she must be the captain of the zero division., etc. Nah, just kidding :D

Anyway, I guess an excellent commitment, high spiritual power and experience are needed for one to be considered to the royal guard. On the other hand, Isshin seems to contradict all of these, he's a goofball...

Tsukisama
June 10, 2008, 03:53 PM
1)We know that the SS exist while exist the Human world....obviously it evolves(like the material world...look at Urahara research....)so...when did they set up Seireitei,Central 46,Gotei 13 ecc...?
My answer is that at a time of the History,the King decided to build in the SS a military structure that can easily control the balance within the Human world and the spirit world,a structure which could defeat hollows before they did to much damage......

I seriously doubt Kubo will ever go that far in depth to explain when SS formed in relation to the human world, as it brings up possibly messy things like a time before humans and the like. More than likely, Kubo will say that SS was created "long, long ago" or "at the dawn of time" (especially the latter if Kubo wants to make the Spirit King seem like a god figure).

Whether the King built SS really depends on what he is. If he is a god figure, then he may have created everything: SS, the human world, hell, HM, and if there's anything else then that too. If the King is a rather regular being (as he might be, considering their has been mention of a "royal family"), then he might have just been a very prominent figure in the earliest shinigami civilization (or descended from this person as the King might even be mortal in the same sense that shinigami seem to age and perhaps eventually die) and this family was chosen to be the royal family (similar to how many real royal families came originally into power [assuming they weren't overthrown]).


2)Who Has sent the king to build up Seireitei???
Some of the RG ruled by some noble family......thanks to those members of the RG he founded Seireitei and he recruit new shinigami....
This would explain why some nobles are in SS and not in the king dimension,why they are involved in important positions and why we haven't seen the other two noble house....

It's already been stated that the only ones residing in the King's dimension are the royal guards and the royal family; so, the remaining great noble families are presumably in Seireitei somewhere (unless everyone in the family was in the RG, but since the RG members are kept secret, then they would be unknown to the population of SS and thus would probably not hold a status in SS).


3)Was Yama-ji in the RG?
If we say yes,he possibly be one of the founder of the Gotei 13,the last to survive,the last to know every secret.Moreover with the constitution of
the Shinigami Academy he improved the level and the number of the Shinigami to fill the hole left by the deaths of the first group of founders/shinigami....

Maybe


4)If Yama-ji was in the RG,could it be that the real requirement is to have the most powerful "elemental Zanpakotu"?actually we haven'tseen thunder,water,earth,wind,lor others like that.....the strongest elemental we have seen are Fire (Yama) and Ice (Hitsugaya) which is a genius,he has before the others captain a Gaiden,he has a movie,he talked with the spirit of the Ice dragon before being a shinigami,but for the moment not a real impact on the story and still to young(according to my theory and for the recent evolutions in SS) to enter and fill a possible hole in the RG .....

I doubt that the criteria for entry into the RG is something as trivial as having the "most powerful [insert element] zanpakutou," especially there is seemingly quite a few zanpakutou without a particular elemental affiliation.


5)The other possibility is that the king depart to another more secure dimension and he decided to left behind some nobles and RG to constitute a first barrier between him and hollow/evil/dangerous forces.....which leads always to the others statements...

This is not a question-and-answer pair. :p This idea does not sound that implausible. The very fact that the original Ouken was manufactured (instead of one just inherently existing) seems to suggest IMO that the King's dimension did not always exist or at least came into existence after SS for the purpose of separating the King from all others.

000
June 11, 2008, 02:51 AM
It is fun to see, how King Dimension was said to be completely sealed off and King whereabouts was not heard of by something like 1000 years (back then Key of King was mentioned), and now have one capitan being promouted to Royal Guard 100 years B.S.S. (before serie start). Is thatinconsistency, or something ulterior?

Tsukisama
June 11, 2008, 02:20 PM
It is fun to see, how King Dimension was said to be completely sealed off and King whereabouts was not heard of by something like 1000 years (back then Key of King was mentioned), and now have one capitan being promouted to Royal Guard 100 years B.S.S. (before serie start). Is thatinconsistency, or something ulterior?

The Ouken was created more than likely many, many years before 1000 years ago, since Yamamoto created the Shinigami Academy 2000 years ago. We don't currently have any information on the King or the King's dimension, other than this dimension is in a separate space at the core of SS and that there exists the Ouken to access this space. Nothing else is known.

There is no inconsistency with Hikifune joining the royal guard. We already knew that the royal guard existed, and there is no reason why there could not have been someone promoted to the royal guard a century ago.

tidal_alchemist87
June 16, 2008, 07:27 PM
It's also equally possible they only choose their guards every decade or so. Let's not forget SS captains it's possible if someone has the ability to become a captain but is not promoted to one because there is no vacancy. Something similar may be there for the Royal Guard in the case of Hikifune, it's possible that there was a vacancy and she was asked if she wanted to join.

Tsukisama
June 16, 2008, 08:10 PM
It's also equally possible they only choose their guards every decade or so. Let's not forget SS captains it's possible if someone has the ability to become a captain but is not promoted to one because there is no vacancy. Something similar may be there for the Royal Guard in the case of Hikifune, it's possible that there was a vacancy and she was asked if she wanted to join.

You're definitely correct about the probability of space being limited on the royal guard. I would imagine that the royal guard is meant to be a rather elite group and thus would take only a certain number of members at a time. Having a vacancy would definitely be a reason why Hikifune could have been promoted.

When I stated that there is no reason why someone should not have been able to be promoted to the royal guard, it was in regard to the post of the user I quoted who was inquiring whether or not this promotion meant some sort of inconsistency in the manga, which it does not. There is no inconsistency, because there has been no prior statements in the manga to say something like could not have happened. Sorry for any confusion.

THE KING
June 26, 2008, 03:34 AM
The Royal Guards, Group - Isn't there supposed to be just one Royal Guard.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

nordicbattlesigns
June 26, 2008, 03:39 AM
The Royal Guards, Group - Isn't there supposed to be just one Royal Guard.
Correct me if I'm wrong.


I think it would have to be more than one guard. Otherwise there wouldn't be much point in naming it a division, Division Zero! That aside, having numbers circumvents the inevitable danger of having just one - what if that one was killed? The king would be theoretically undefended whilst they went through the process of selecting the replacement.

Megaman84
June 26, 2008, 03:49 PM
Maybe the Royal Guard are required to be all round uber and have specific zanpaktou - such as shikai/bankai that are particularly good in defense aspects or some thing along those lines.

THE KING
June 26, 2008, 04:40 PM
I think the RG have a level beyond the Bankai, and Isshin having one(if he is Rg) woul be totally awesome.

nordicbattlesigns
June 26, 2008, 10:55 PM
In order to join Division Zero, the Royal Guard, the prospective member must first – obviously! – be approved for promotion. A person might be talented, they may be eminently, admirably qualified, but without that official seal of approval they aren’t going anywhere.

With this being the case, one supposes there are three possible sources of this approval:

-- The King himself, or the King’s representative.

-- The Central 46 Chambers. These do not have authority over the Royal Guard, it has been stated somewhere. (Can anybody provide the cite for this?) However as they DO have authority over the Gotei 13 – and hence the main pool of candidates from which the RG is drawn – they probably do have a say in who will join. We should be mindful that they ARE the King’s authority and representative within Soul Society ever since he removed himself to the other dimension.

-- Division Zero itself, or more specifically, the Captain of Division Zero. One supposes there IS a Captain, almost inevitable in any ordered military body, and all the more so if Division Zero took its structure from the other Divisions of the Gotei 13. (Or, bearing in mind this is ZERo, before all the other numbers – might it be that the Gotei 13 was originally modeled after the Royal Guard? It’s speculative.)

We can’t really speculate much on the King or the Royal Guard, lacking all other information other than that they exist, elsewhere, and that Hikifune Kirio, former Twelth Division Captain, was promoted. They are more or less dead ends. Considering the Central 46 however as possible selectors of the Royal Guard, knowing how stern and strict they are, a general idea of their probable criteria can be guess at.

-- Power. The most obvious. Inevitably, nothing less than Captain-level would cut it for guarding the King. As other have suggested earlier in this thread it would probably be an all-round thing; simple bankai may not be enough, a solid command of kidou and the other combat styles is probably the difference – ultimately, the “Aizen ideal” in reaching the limits in all areas is perfect. Aizen himself on this basis would have been a good candidate.

-- Even more critical in the eyes of the Central 46, a fierce sense of loyalty and duty is necessary. Several Captains falter here, fighters and mad scientists amongst them. Kyouraku Shansui is a good Captain but seems too carefree and lazy for this strict criterion. Amusingly, I can imagine the altogether too serious Hitsugaya Toushirou being perfect on this point, his personality definitely suits.

-- General fitness for the rank must be considered. Ukitake falls short on this; the night Shiba Kaien died, he was prepared to act, but health failed him at a vital moment with many later repercussions. Fitness can also include the mental state, and even beyond one’s sense of loyalty and duty, insane Kurotsuchi and fight-minded Kempachi also opt out on this point.

-- Then we have something the Soul Society elite take overly seriously – position and breeding. The highest bloodlines appear well represented in the captain levels (Shihouin, Shiba, Kuchiki) and have the benefits of both prestige and spiritual strength. Even from outside the Seiretei we can compare differences; Hitsugaya, coming from the top end of town, is a better choice here than Rukia or Renji, or worse, Kempachi, these all coming up from the dregs.

-- A final consideration. Who can we probably consider within the Gotei 13 to be replaceable? Some resources simply can’t be spared. Unohana of the Fourth Division is so specialized, for instance, having utterly no peer as a healer in Soul Society. Isane is a decent vice-Captain, one assumes, but has not been seen as demonstrably good enough to take the reins should Unohana go – in terms of either captaincy or healing.

Considering this further: specialized or no, how does Soul Society deal with the loss of ANY Captain? The Soul Society of one hundred years ago seemed quite able to fill such vacancies, and had the pool of talent to do so. Urahara filled Hikifune’s shoes readily; a few years on, Tousen had bankai and Aizen – based on the power he displayed – was probably quite capable of stepping up a rank. (Have we possibly more? Hiyori and Lisa, as future Vizard, had to have enough inner strength to overcome their hollows – lesser shinigami simply ended up as cannon fodder for Kensei’s shikai.) Moving forward, the present day Gotei 13 doesn’t seem to have the luxury of readily available talent, and is already three traitorous captains down! Now, Renji and Ikkaku might be able to fill the gaps, somewhat, but the one was overawed by his own Captain when Renji fought with Byakuya, and the other just doesn’t want the job. As I remember it now, the Gaiden Gotei 13 had the Tenth Division Captaincy open and didn’t seem troubled in the lack. It could spare a Captain or so for the Royal Guard. Now with the current Captains down in numbers -and possibly about to be down more? – it seems they simply can’t spare the manpower.

Back to topic, and ignoring the matter of manpower shortages for now, I think the most qualified amongst the current stock of Captains, on the above criteria, would actually be Kuchiki Byakuya. With Hitsugaya as a future contender, for amusement’s sake.

Dark God Zeus
July 07, 2009, 07:50 PM
We know that the gotei 13 in and of itself has 13 captains, and then a few more who are "captain level" who meet the requirements of a captain (renji, ikkaku, and at the time Tosen/Aizen, maybe Gin?).

We don't know how large the Royal Guard is, but that it simply takes CAPTAINS (not "captain level") from the Gotei 13, making them protectors of the Royal Family. And I'd guess that the Royal Guard has existed since a hundredish years after the formation of the 13 protection squads and the shinigami academy.

We know for sure the Royal guard can't have any members from the 8th squad, 13th squad, 1st squad, and 4th squad, because Shunsui, Jushiro, Yama, and unohana have always held those positions, they are the only members left of the original captains.

And honestly, it doesn't seem like the Royal Family wouldn't need that many powerful guards. I doubt the royal guard has seen any action for some time.

2nd squad- captain would have to be prior to Youroichi and prior to Soi Fon

3rd squad- I suspect the captain prior to Rose is a member, and then it's simply prior to Rose, prior to Gin.

5th Squad- Prior to Shinji, prior to aizen. Although when DID the hollow attack in the human world happen, when renji/momo/kira were on training, because aizen was a captain then. Did Aizen become a captain immedietly after Shinji?

6th squad- I suspect Ginrei is a member at least, although what remains to be seen is if this squad is going to always house a kuchiki. Prior to byakuya.

7th squad- prior to Love, prior to Koma

9th- prior to Kensai, prior to Tosen

10th- prior to hitsugaya.

11th- Prior to Kenpachi.....but, it's guarenteed to be a kenpachi at least!

12th- Hikifune is a member we already know, so other than that prior to her. Mayuri succeeded urahara, no one in between I Believe.

kkck
July 07, 2009, 09:10 PM
I doubt every captain actually gets promoted to the royal guard if he is a captain for enough time. Also what you mention about the royal guard being only captains is debatable. If there is someone outside the captains who is fit for the position, I don't see any reason for that person not to be considered. Of course we have little information about the guard but still.

I am inclined to believe ginrei kuchiki is dead(no grounds to base that on, just my honest opinion). Also, the 10th squad captain from 100 years ago was confirmed dead.

I also do not think every captain who has left the gotei 13 has become a member of the guard. Being a captain means you are one of SS main assets which comes along with a considerable amount of danger. I would think the reason SS keeps changing captains is that they constantly die in the job(well, not constantly but I still doubt every captain prior to the current and past generation has become a member of the royal guard).

As for how many guards there are, I am inclined to believe no more than 13. Just having 13 captain level dudes is the equivalent to having a monumentally powerful and large army, I doubt more than that is needed.

Arch!
July 07, 2009, 10:50 PM
As for how many guards there are, I am inclined to believe no more than 13. Just having 13 captain level dudes is the equivalent to having a monumentally powerful and large army, I doubt more than that is needed.
Haha, I really hope it's less than 13. I shudder to think how long the series would be prolonged.

Darek Khort
July 08, 2009, 01:49 AM
I reckon 4; because that is like Death in Chinese/Japanese and as such would match perfectly with being a Shinigami (Death God). Plus it could predict their death.
Kubo did do 13 for SS. Don't know how he came up with the number, but if he was looking at Western bad luck. hurhurhur.
Then now do 4. :<

However since there were captain-commanders before Yama's time and since I assume the King has existed for longer than Yama; I would assume given that fact that there would be quite a few people who had been promoted to Zero Squad.
However if we think about how Kubo mentions (somewhere; correct me if I'm wrong) that those in SS do die and 'reincarnate' in the human world (thus a cycle) I would assume that anyone in the Zero Squad that came before Yama's time (from previous captain-commanders) would have 'died' and their soul gone back to the human world, and even back to SS depending on how long it has been.

As such; there might have been hundreds of captains that have been promoted to Zero Squad in the past couple of thousand years (depending on when SS began); but most of them would have 'died' either in combat or naturally.


Thus if we assume that Yama is like, the oldest person in SS who still hasn't died naturally and because Hikifune got promoted a hundred years ago (I think); I personally guesstimate 10 people in Zero Squad currently alive (unless Yama is like, 10,000 years old or something...)

Izkity
July 08, 2009, 06:49 PM
I'd say no more than 10, at the very most. We know Hikifune is one; however, I wouldn't assume that a captain from every squad gets promoted sooner or later. Look at Kyouraku/Ukitake/Unohana.

Dark God Zeus
July 08, 2009, 09:10 PM
Well, they could always turn down the promotion.

Darek Khort
July 09, 2009, 06:38 AM
Well, they could always turn down the promotion.

Indeed, just as a person can turn down an offer to become a VC.

Plus if you look at Kyouraku, Ukitake and Unohana:

Kyouraku - Probably likes women too much to go to King's Dimension where there might not be too many women.

Ukitake - May believe he is too sick to be promoted.

Unohana - May believe (or even Yama might believe) that her ability to heal is a far greater asset in SS than in King's Dimension. I'm pretty sure the average shinigami gets hurt far more often than those in the King's Dimension.

Dark God Zeus
July 10, 2009, 01:36 AM
Perhaps there is one guard per royal family member? King/Queen/Jack/Princess (if there isn't another name..just doesn't fit in like the rest) guard

I do like the number 4. Maybe "5" just to have a captain commander among them?

Mifune_Taichou
July 24, 2009, 11:59 AM
I just had a thought. i was reading the bit in TBTP where Shunsui was explaining the Royal guard to Aizen and the look on his face and the context in which it all happened makes me think:

could he have been making s**t up? For a second when I was reading it I got the strong impression that he's pulling Aizen's leg hard.

Zatono
July 24, 2009, 12:27 PM
I just had a thought. i was reading the bit in TBTP where Shunsui was explaining the Royal guard to Aizen and the look on his face and the context in which it all happened makes me think:

could he have been making s**t up? For a second when I was reading it I got the strong impression that he's pulling Aizen's leg hard.

But then where did Hikifune go? Besides, Shunsui and Ukitake talked about it here.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.01/12/

Mifune_Taichou
July 24, 2009, 12:38 PM
But then where did Hikifune go? Besides, Shunsui and Ukitake talked about it here.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.01/12/

ah yes true. It would have bene funny do. Aizen bursts into the Kings lounge and is like ok where the hell is the Royal Guard I'm here to murder them all.

king: Royal whuh....do you want a cookie?
Aizen: Why yes, yes I do. Gin do you want a cookie?
Gin: Yes. Yes I do. a cookie of DEATH. *He shinso everyone in the room incl Aizen* daaaaaaaamn that was the longest undercover ever.
*whips out a phone* Ok Yamajii you can come be king now.

Eddy01741
July 24, 2009, 01:29 PM
I definitely agree that Royal Guard shouldnt' be composed of a large amount of members. If it was as large as the gotei 13, doesn't anybody see how rediculous that is? THe amount of power protecting the SS King is the same as the amount protecting all of the human world and the SS? That's just rediclous. Imagine having the secret service of your country being as large as the army, navy, and airforce....

kkck
July 24, 2009, 01:36 PM
I definitely agree that Royal Guard shouldnt' be composed of a large amount of members. If it was as large as the gotei 13, doesn't anybody see how rediculous that is? THe amount of power protecting the SS King is the same as the amount protecting all of the human world and the SS? That's just rediclous. Imagine having the secret service of your country being as large as the army, navy, and airforce....
By as large as the gotei 13 you mean 13 promoted captains or captains plus entire squads?

Now, as to whether it would be ridiculous would largely depend on the characteristics, properties and dignity of the king. Say the king while not all powerful holds the duties of god(or is the actual god). In that particular situation and a few other situations, 10, 100 or a 100000 former captains would not really be enough or worthy of being part of such a guard.

Tsukisama
July 24, 2009, 02:43 PM
ah yes true. It would have bene funny do. Aizen bursts into the Kings lounge and is like ok where the hell is the Royal Guard I'm here to murder them all.

king: Royal whuh....do you want a cookie?
Aizen: Why yes, yes I do. Gin do you want a cookie?
Gin: Yes. Yes I do. a cookie of DEATH. *He shinso everyone in the room incl Aizen* daaaaaaaamn that was the longest undercover ever.
*whips out a phone* Ok Yamajii you can come be king now.

Another reason to believe that the Royal Guard exists is because they were brought up much before that by Yamamoto when he was explaining Aizen having read information about the Ouken to Hitsugaya, Matsumoto, and Orihime after the SS arc. So, it's safe to believe in their existence.
[hr]

By as large as the gotei 13 you mean 13 promoted captains or captains plus entire squads?

Now, as to whether it would be ridiculous would largely depend on the characteristics, properties and dignity of the king. Say the king while not all powerful holds the duties of god(or is the actual god). In that particular situation and a few other situations, 10, 100 or a 100000 former captains would not really be enough or worthy of being part of such a guard.

I also think that the Royal Guard shouldn't be that large. Besides the story logistics (it would be weird to introduce a large division of powerful characters unless they aren't all that powerful), it would seem rather unnecessary. The King's dimension is already sealed away so that it is inaccessible without the Ouken and whatever method members who join the Royal Guard use to get to the King's dimension. So, it could be an elite force of really powerful captains.

Basically, I think the size of the division will end up being decided by the power of the members. If they are all captains of "average" power (we don't know the criteria for gaining access to the Royal Guard), then it is probably a large division. If all of the captains in the Royal Guard are exceptionally powerful captains, then it is probably going to end up being a smaller division.

digitaldude
July 24, 2009, 02:49 PM
By as large as the gotei 13 you mean 13 promoted captains or captains plus entire squads?

Now, as to whether it would be ridiculous would largely depend on the characteristics, properties and dignity of the king. Say the king while not all powerful holds the duties of god(or is the actual god). In that particular situation and a few other situations, 10, 100 or a 100000 former captains would not really be enough or worthy of being part of such a guard.

I`d say the royal guards are on a vasto lorde level, and could have been created for the purpose of guarding the king.

kkck
July 24, 2009, 03:00 PM
I also think that the Royal Guard shouldn't be that large. Besides the story logistics (it would be weird to introduce a large division of powerful characters unless they aren't all that powerful), it would seem rather unnecessary. The King's dimension is already sealed away so that it is inaccessible without the Ouken and whatever method members who join the Royal Guard use to get to the King's dimension. So, it could be an elite force of really powerful captains.

Basically, I think the size of the division will end up being decided by the power of the members. If they are all captains of "average" power (we don't know the criteria for gaining access to the Royal Guard), then it is probably a large division. If all of the captains in the Royal Guard are exceptionally powerful captains, then it is probably going to end up being a smaller division.

Well, personally I think the royal guard will have around 10-13 members and all of them will be of captain level. I think that makes sense considering the requirements to get to the king.

To get to the king, you need the key to the dimension. To get the key you need to either make one or get the already existing one. For either of those conditions you unquestionably need to esentially defeat and get past the gotei 13 captains and divisions. Now, say someone actually pulls that off. In order to successfully protect the king from an enemy capable of getting past the gotei 13, logically speaking you would need a force as powerful as the gotei 13.

I do want to point out I do not believe the royal guard to be as a normal division with hundreds of members. I think it is composed of a limited number of captain level guys. I doubt anything less than that would be sufficient considering anything less than a captain level dude will be useless against a force strong enough to get past SS and wants to get to the king.

patedecarne
July 24, 2009, 07:45 PM
Royal Guard Members, I believe, are captains that exceeds all the pre requisites for normal captains. While I can't say for sure how this process works, I'd like to believe they are chosen by the King himself. After hearing a report from some RG member, the King would bring up all the past history, everything about a specific captain. And with his approval, this captain would be chosen to be a new member of RG.

I'd say tha RG never gets involved with SS subjects: apparently, they are the last line of defense for the King, and so, for the whole SS, and their time must be totally dedicated to subjects pertinent to the King.

For now, I believe RG won't appear because Aizen didn't create the Ouken yet, but assuming Aizen will create the Ouken(and I believe he will), finnaly we'll see more from the RG.

conn-man
February 01, 2010, 03:02 PM
i predict that the royal gaurd will have shinigami from yamamotos generation and possibly before his time.

TravisAxel
February 02, 2010, 12:53 PM
The one thing that bothers me about the Royal Guard is why does Aizen need to overcomplicate his goal if he just wants to take over the royal dimension? Wouldnt he rather just get a promotion and infiltrate the royal dimension?
Unless theres something im missing I feel as if these arcs arent as meaningful.

Richo
February 02, 2010, 01:46 PM
The one thing that bothers me about the Royal Guard is why does Aizen need to overcomplicate his goal if he just wants to take over the royal dimension? Wouldnt he rather just get a promotion and infiltrate the royal dimension?
Unless theres something im missing I feel as if these arcs arent as meaningful.

there isnt much known about the royal gaurd at this moment. The only thing we know about their recruitement is that Hikifune got recruited during the pendulum arc, it seems important enough to mention that none besides a limited few know about this. Also it is unknown at this point who know about the royal gaurd. Shunsui did talk about it like it was common knowledge, however I believe only captains known this and only on a need to know basis.
At this point it unknow how many members the royal gaurd counts, however when speculating I will go along with a the size about a normal sized platoon (10-20 members) (wich is also suggested earlier in this thread). Aizen never did show how strong he is as been proven on numerous occassions by Hitsugaya, Konomaru and in the pendulum arc as he was able to stand against captain level shinigami (I admit they were fighting their hollow, being weak).

En Yang Ji
February 02, 2010, 02:20 PM
- Aizen probably doesn't want to underestimate the royal guard. With the imperfect Espada being on the Gotei 13's level, I don't think he has to worry about them. The only problem is the RG. Maybe he started experimenting with the Espada, with the intention of creating a perfect vastro lorde army to fight the RG.

- Aizen can take on multiple captains without even using his shikai, so if he got serious he may be able to take on the majority of the gotei 13 by himself. Than he has WW and Gin. If they wanted to, they could fight as a team, while taking advantage of Aizen's shikai ability.

Also he went through the trouble of dividing the the Gotei 13. It doesn't seem the Gotei 13 by itself, ever was a real threat to Aizen. Even with the Vizards and Ichigo, they are on the verge of losing.

conn-man
November 30, 2010, 04:26 PM
what if the royal gaurd turns out to be members of the very first gotei 13, as in the first time it ever achived 13 captains?

shinigami that are from yamamotos time on the gotei as a regular captain, captains over 2000 years old.

another theory to tag onto this is that unohana, shunsui and ukitake might know most of the RG but there are members even they, and yamamoto, might not be aware of. it would explain why kubo is saving those threes bankais, they already know people in the RG that might have grudges or bad blood with that they are saving them for.

one of the RG could be a captain that participated in the quincy massacre, like the sadistic type, an ichimaru 2.0 type of character. a character that ryuken and uuryu could have a serious reason to fight, could be epic.

i expect the royal gaurd stuff to have a lot of interesting things like this, any other opinions?

Raizen
November 30, 2010, 04:33 PM
I personally believed that shunsui, ukitake, and unohana were all asked to become RG memebers but declined due to their close relationship with yamamoto

BaddAzzKenpachi74
November 30, 2010, 04:43 PM
I personally believed that shunsui, ukitake, and unohana were all asked to become RG memebers but declined due to their close relationship with yamamoto

i think this aswell ^^^
they are the 3 top seniors of the Gotei 13 afterall.
i'm not sure how the recruitment into the Royal Guards work but i'm pretty sure that those 3 most likely got a offer a LONG time ago but declined.
Yammamotto obviously would be a choice if he wasn't CC of SS

kkck
December 01, 2010, 01:23 PM
I don't think a promotion to the royal guard would be something which they would refuse. In unohaha'a case I would think she, like yamamoto, was deemed irreplaceable and thus never offered the promotion. Ukitake, as powerful as he is, has a weak constitution and such a thing could present a problem. Shunsui has a big flaw which is his personality. He is laid back and easy going at practically all times. Less powerful captains who don't have that flaw could be seen as just as good candidates. That said, the royal guard could easily have had no vacant spaces left for a while hence why the position has not been offered to them (yet it was offered to hikifune and not shunsui though). Anyways, I would see the position being offered to byakuya before any of the aforementioned captains for the reasons I mentioned. He is strong(top physical condition) and has a sense of duty which none of the other captains could match and his skills are more replaceable than unohana's.

Raizen
December 01, 2010, 02:48 PM
They could also use the reasons you listed to refuse the position. Uki does not love to fight and he likes being by his teacher to protect him. Shunsui is lazy and also would rather not fight. And unohana seems to have a great deal of history with shunsui, uki, and yama as well. Promotion to RG is just like any other promotions. You can turn it down as long as u have a decent excuse

kkck
December 01, 2010, 03:09 PM
IMO refusing the promotion because of a dislike of fights is rather awkward. They are already captains of the gotei 13, if disliking fights was that big a deal they would have rejected that position to begin with. We don't even know how much fighting the zero squad would have to do to begin with. Would the king get attacked that often? Even if he was, wouldn't attackers have to get past the squads first (as aizen had to do)? And in all fairness, we don't even know if you can actually refuse a promotion to the royal guard. We know you can't really quit being a shinigami (at most a leave of absence) so who knows how they work. If anything a dislike of fights should by all intents and purposes encourage someone to go to the royal guard considering they would have to fight only the most serious of threats that were ultimately capable of getting past the gotei 13. Ukitake is strong but if his decease kicks there is no way he could even hold his ground against a captain level enemy. IMO that is a more than good enough reason to not even being considered for the promotion considering there should be plenty of other captain level people who don't get randomly reduced to the level of the most insignificant worthless fodder by tuberculosis(or something of the sort). All in all, ukitake is the least qualified of the 3 aforementioned people to be promoted. At least imminent doom can somewhat get shunsui to get serious lol. Unohana is perhaps an spectacular fighter but I would think healing skills of her caliber should be practically impossible to replace. She serves a greater purpose being readily available to the 13 squads. She is also already capable of dealing with the 13 squads, if the zero squad has trouble it should not be difficult to mobilize the 4th squad along with unohana to help.

Raizen
December 01, 2010, 05:08 PM
You make excellent points. But what i was getting at was that they may have gotten the promotion, but played to the excuses you specify to make them seem less qualify (ie ukitake is sick, unohana is the best healer, etc)

I don't see why some of the oldest and considerably strongest captains other than yama wouldn't have been asked to enter the RG. but I am sure we will find out soon enough

savantking
December 08, 2010, 12:57 AM
All I hope is that when we finally see the RG that we don't be seeing them being punked by most of the regular captains except the ones that have bankai and haven't shown it. I dont want Hitsugaya, Kenpachi, or even Byakuya to be beating them...I mean the RG is supposed to be the elite of the Captains we shouldn't be seeing regular captains beating them unless they're the uber ones. I'm also kinda okay if the Vizards captains face them as they need to be redeemed.

Raizen
December 08, 2010, 07:53 PM
If someone like byakuya or kenpachi can't take on the RG, what makes u think the vizards can? LOL

landundersea
December 10, 2010, 05:48 AM
i would really like to know why all the safety around the king to begin with... i don't mean that anyone should just casually walk up to any of the royal family members and high-five them, but living in a separate dimension that can be unlocked with one key only, whose location is uber secret (and that was probably forged after sacrificing 100,000 souls) and having some sort of guard that we can assume consists of fairly powerful shinigami.... hmmmm.... and then all of the gotei 13 were pretty adamant keeping aizen back esp the captain commander who i believe knows more about the sk and the royal guard.

i don't know about you people, but no matter how strict the rules and everything in gotei 13 might be i wouldn't really feel like getting myself killed over a king i do not even know and who is almost useless (even matsumoto is pretty aware of that and she is only a lieutenant). and then transferring kt to ss, it made the situation the shinigami were facing against aizen even more desperate than it would be had they left things as they were. people would get killed during the fight, and lots of them would have died but wouldn't that deplete the actual population, so aizen wouldn't be able to use kt and create the key?

kkck
December 11, 2010, 11:52 PM
^I think you might be underestimating the king. The king has been mentioned to have a purpose in the databook and urahara mentioned the king was something that kinda held everything as it should be. In that sense, defending the king also is by all intents and purposes the exact same thing as protecting the universe and every life in it. The king could be a worthless egomaniac lunatic who does not give a crap about anything or anyone however if he is the one holding reality in place he would be more important than any number of human lives and protecting him is the most important plausible duty. Given what we already know, even knowing the king is irrelevant. I mean, if the king is the one that keeps things as they should be or as they are, does it matter whether he is evil, insane, the nicest guy in the world or anything else? The king has inherent value beyond his title or personality due to the apparent duty he performs. Granted, it would seem possible to change the king given what aizen was doing (he wanted to become the king as far as we know) however that necessarily wouldn't make much of a difference. Everything could change with another king however in the end he would still have to be protected just the same. On another note, it is evident the king has limited power at least in some form or area considering he needs protection.

Tabaro Foka
December 12, 2010, 05:22 AM
May be in royal dimension the king ot Souls Society fight with some enemies and Royal Guard is not a luxe but necessary.In bleach wiki says that they are also charged with slaying Menos Grande , though the circumstances under which they do so are unknown.



http://store.picbg.net/pubpic/52/B6/b662efec33e552b6.jpg


from databook masked:
the 12th division captain kirio hikifune retires then promoted to the zero divison squad.
even though their name is similar to gotei 13, they have different systems
the royal guard's existence are extremely conceal that even the gotei 13 couldn't grasp their virtual conditions.
captain, vice captain is completely unknown"

past :
captain: unknown
vice captain : unknown

present:
captain : unknown
vice captain : unknown

My personal opinion is that 0 Division have high and average level captains shinigami and their number is like a one division in Gotei 13.The 0 Divion captain and vice captain are reiatsu montsers like Yamamoto and the other members of this division 3 seated and down are on the level of captain of gotei 13.Compared to power Royal Guard is stronger than Gotei 13.I think we will see there who are this two unrevealed 2 Noble Families.There is a big chance someone of them to be a member in Royal Guard.

I think we well see another less noble houses in royal dimension who are close to them and made a dission to leave Soul Society with Royal Family.

landundersea
December 12, 2010, 12:39 PM
^I think you might be underestimating the king. The king has been mentioned to have a purpose in the databook and urahara mentioned the king was something that kinda held everything as it should be. In that sense, defending the king also is by all intents and purposes the exact same thing as protecting the universe and every life in it.

... i don't think anyone can underestimate or overestimate sb/sth we don't even know what it is. there is too much safety around this king (another bloody dimension, srsly!!!!) and i wouldn't take urahara's word as it is, for two reasons: 1. i never liked the guy :p and 2. on a more serious side what do we know about him>> he is quite close with the current head of the shihoin family who amongst all the noble houses holds a special status and they are thought to have been given objects by the heavens to safeguard (one of which was used to destroy the flaming pigeon, so i suppose these objects are not your average fluffy pillow); the exact nature of their relationship is unknown... and no, i don't mean anything romantic by that. suppose, for a moment, that urahara is a member of a lesser noble house attached and serving the shihoin (like sui feng), then they were serving them as what? i have written in another thread what if the #uraharas# are specialising in let's say technological innovations... :notrust under this light all the significance of the shihoin family and even maybe the royal family can be examined under a completely different light; it is a hypothesis and there are no evidence to back it up, but there are no evidence to disprove it for the time being. another thing i never understood: what he meant with his lynchpin view, that the king is an entity that actively keeps the world in place or that he holds a certain status in the eyes of ss (like the captain commander is for the gotei 13) and by killing him the current status quo will change..? sth else, during urahara's conversation with isshin i was left with the impression that isshin had no idea about urahara's knowledge regarding the visards. there are so many things that bothered me with this guy from the moment that he showed up and i do hope kubo will finally start straightening things out

i have written this before and will say it again ichigo and his friends are way too gullible, they arrived in another world got mixed in their business and never asked any questions other than sought out for help. understandable, but it should by no means suggest to anyone that the people who offered help are anything more than allies and alliances are based on interests, nothing more nothing less.

so, to wrap things up: we know very little about this king and therefore, my opinion stands as it is>>> too much safety around this guy. royal guards, i do think they will be very strong, but not ichigo-level-strong not aizen-level either. don't forget that these are the only two characters we know for sure their reiatsu is double a captain's class if not more. i do think there is more to this business and i do think that the kurosaki family is not the only one with a dirty little secret.

ps. sorry, for long post... i talk too much; yakuza will never welcome me :p

savantking
December 12, 2010, 05:45 PM
Wasn't it said in one of the databooks that Yamamoto was once offered a spot on the Royal Guard but that he refused it at some point? So I think it is possible for people to refuse the position

kkck
December 12, 2010, 09:08 PM
^No, he has never been offered the position because there would be no one to replace him as commander.

En Yang Ji
December 13, 2010, 05:59 PM
I believe most of the Royal Guard are either higher than Byakuya's level and below Shunsui's, or at Shunsui level. They could even be higher than Shunsui's level. How would they have exceptional strength in comparison to the Gotei 13 if most of them were around Byakuya's level?

Hitsu, Koma, Mayuri and Kenpachi are likely weaker than Byakuya, but the rest of the Gotei 13 were at his level are higher. Soi Fong, Tousen and Gin can compete with him. Shunsui, Ukitake, Yama, Aizen, and likely Unohana are stronger than him.

kkck
December 14, 2010, 03:19 PM
Tousen seems to have remarkably poor physical capacities as a shinigami (not the case as a when he had a mask though). The main issue is how exactly the royal guard is structured. If there is any merit to what has been said about yamamoto and ukitake/shunsui then we should not expect the royal guard top members to be any different from the current captains for the most part. What will be relevant here will not necessarily be them being "OMFG UBER POWERFUL YAMAMOTO IS WEAK LITTLE BITCH NEXT TO ME" thing but rather their functions as protectors of the king and the actual functions of the king.

Raizen
December 14, 2010, 07:45 PM
Tousen seems to have remarkably poor physical capacities as a shinigami (not the case as a when he had a mask though). The main issue is how exactly the royal guard is structured. If there is any merit to what has been said about yamamoto and ukitake/shunsui then we should not expect the royal guard top members to be any different from the current captains for the most part. What will be relevant here will not necessarily be them being "OMFG UBER POWERFUL YAMAMOTO IS WEAK LITTLE BITCH NEXT TO ME" thing but rather their functions as protectors of the king and the actual functions of the king.
I doubt any of the RG memebers are as strong as yama aside from the leader. I expect the leader to perhaps be even stronger than yama. Most of the RG I would say would be around urahara's level: somewhere between byakuya's strength and shunsui, with the stronger end being as strong as shunsui and uki

Takahashi
December 14, 2010, 07:55 PM
Wasn't it said in one of the databooks that Yamamoto was once offered a spot on the Royal Guard but that he refused it at some point? So I think it is possible for people to refuse the position

I'm pretty sure "Captain Commander" is really high up there on the rank scale, so if he were offered a spot, it would be to replace the Royal Guard Commander. I'd estimate that the Commander of the Royal Guard is probably equal in power to him, after all, they're just leaders of different divisions. Although the Royal Guard probably has some more prestige attached to it.

conn-man
December 15, 2010, 12:06 AM
I'm pretty sure "Captain Commander" is really high up there on the rank scale, so if he were offered a spot, it would be to replace the Royal Guard Commander. I'd estimate that the Commander of the Royal Guard is probably equal in power to him, after all, they're just leaders of different divisions. Although the Royal Guard probably has some more prestige attached to it.

This is definitely sounding right but I would guess that every captain in the RG will be at least one notch above the present gotei capts. Half a notch above the seniors.

Yamamoto will prob be able to beat most them except their CC, or what ever leads them, who should be Yama level or higher. Maybe they'll fight, Yama would prob lose though since he's only got one arm now.

Takahashi
December 15, 2010, 01:09 AM
This is definitely sounding right but I would guess that every captain in the RG will be at least one notch above the present gotei capts. Half a notch above the seniors.

Yamamoto will prob be able to beat most them except their CC, or what ever leads them, who should be Yama level or higher. Maybe they'll fight, Yama would prob lose though since he's only got one arm now.

I thought it was restored? Both Hachi and Orihime can repair dismemberment, and Unohana could have fixed his charred arm (do we even know if he lost it?)

I'd bet that since Hikifune was promoted to the Royal Guard that they're generally above the Gotei's captains. Or maybe it has to do with their abilities. After all, they're division 0, which likely means specialists in something in the same way 11 is for CQC fighters 4 is for healers and 2 is for assassins.

If the Royal Guard CC is just some guy with a hax ability I'll be disappointed though. Yama was awesome because his Zan is so straightforward but he's just THAT awesome.

conn-man
December 15, 2010, 01:27 AM
Yeah, ukitake says that he's lost his arm for good but that even still he's to amazing to replace.

About why a captain would get the promotion. They'll prob all be reiatsu monsters, be exceptionally skilled and have great zanpakuto abilities. No specialization or classification, just powerful shinigami.

There is the potential though that they could possess something special that kubo will reveal. That would be interesting.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
December 18, 2010, 06:09 PM
If the Royal Guard CC is just some guy with a hax ability I'll be disappointed though. Yama was awesome because his Zan is so straightforward but he's just THAT awesome.

i always pictured that the Royal Guard Captain Commander would have the strongest lightning based zanpakuto for some reason lol:amuse
i mean Hitsyugaya has the strongest Ice and Yammamotto the strongest fire so having the CC of the Royal Guard have the strongest of a certain element would be pretty badass in my opinion

R3D
February 06, 2011, 11:19 AM
where were the rg during aizens invasion of karakura ? sleeping or hiding in tremor from aizens power ?

Jorge D. Dragon
February 06, 2011, 11:30 AM
BaddAzzKenpachi74
Yes, it would be good for him to have the ultimate Lightning Za.:) It would be even better if he looked like Zeus.:)

heavenchoas
I don't think that they were shacking from fear. Their responsibility is to protect Soul King in his Realn, that is separated, so they act only when someone illegally enters this Realm, so they didn't have to act against Aizen in Karakura town, cause it is Gotei 13's responsibility to protect Soul Society and the World of Living.:)

~Joshua~
February 07, 2011, 10:38 AM
I hope they are just "reiatsu monsters" and exceptionally skilled shinigami. If they were anything else then it would make the Gotei 13 seem like monsters again. Sigh...

En Yang Ji
February 07, 2011, 01:00 PM
I also hope they're exceptionally skilled, around Aizen's skill level. Maybe not as haxx, but definitely skilled. Maybe even more so than Aizen and Yama, they could be more skilled in specialized areas or know about abilities even Aizen and Yama don't (similar to fullbringer). I would love for them to be ambitious, always training, always looking for new abilities. Than they would live up to the hype.

If that statement about Yama definitely being able to be in the RG holds merit, then most are probably either around Shunsui's and Urahara's level or lower, since it was said they are exceptionally skilled in comparison to organizations in SS.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 08, 2011, 02:09 PM
ki0
I also hope that Royal Guard will bring some new level to all of Shinigami abilities we've already seen such as greater levels of Kidou, forbidden Kidou, better than Yoruichi's Shunkou and also some totally new fields of power, but also Shinigami related.:)

luffyg2
February 12, 2011, 04:02 AM
Anyone else here think that Ishin might have been at some point in his life... in the Royal Guard... just though that because the other shinigami dont seem to know the name kurosaki and never reacted when they heard ichigo's name so I assume most of them dont know ishin

freshseth83
February 17, 2011, 01:55 AM
Yama's words were no one has been born in the last thousand years that is as powerful as him. Royal Guards are retired shinigami. So why would they be on Yama's level? If they are all retired captains, then they aren't as strong as Yama. Maybe they'll be around Byakuya level with their skills all around his level. Knowledge of Kido, adept in shunpo, hakuda, high sp, mastered bankai etc.

kkck
February 17, 2011, 02:42 AM
Royal guards are not retired shinigami, they are shinigami who got PROMOTED. Who knows, could there be a shinigami older than 1000 years in there?

En Yang Ji
February 17, 2011, 02:45 AM
Yama's words were no one has been born in the last thousand years that is as powerful as him. Royal Guards are retired shinigami. So why would they be on Yama's level? If they are all retired captains, then they aren't as strong as Yama. Maybe they'll be around Byakuya level with their skills all around his level. Knowledge of Kido, adept in shunpo, hakuda, high sp, mastered bankai etc.

I take Yama's words with a grain of salt. How would he know someone if in the RG, or Urahara or Isshin surpassed him or not? The RG is in a separate dimension. There's no reason to believe that some of them couldn't be on Shunsui's level or on Yama's level. They were said to have exceptional abilities and strategy implementation.

Also they don't have to be on Yama's level on everything, they're could be specialist in their group even better than Yama in certain areas (similar to Yoruichi with speed or Tessai with Kido). They could have new abilities Yama never even heard of similar to fullbringer. Their bodies could have high potential. They may have vizards, or human/ shingami hybrids in their ranks. I'm not saying they definitely have bodies like this, but there is a possibility.

thornofcarrion
February 17, 2011, 03:01 AM
I take Yama's words with a grain of salt. How would he know someone if in the RG, or Urahara or Isshin surpassed him or not? The RG is in a separate dimension. There's no reason to believe that some of them couldn't be on Shunsui's level or on Yama's level. They were said to have exceptional abilities and strategy implementation.

Also they don't have to be on Yama's level on everything, they're could be specialist in their group even better than Yama in certain areas (similar to Yoruichi with speed or Tessai with Kido). They could have new abilities Yama never even heard of similar to fullbringer. Their bodies could have high potential. They may have vizards, or human/ shingami hybrids in their ranks. I'm not saying they definitely have bodies like this, but there is a possibility.

I agree with you. I also haven't taken Yama's words to be an established fact. There are always unknowns. How much Urahara or Isshin improved, Yama did not know. Same could be said about RG. I also consider the proud, confident and even at times arrogant personality of Yama. His words are not the end of the story, to put it in away. Oops getting off-topic.

IIRC, Royal Guards do not report to Yama, correct? Is it an indication of their strength? Can we use this reference to establish or gauge how strong they could be? I can't say definitely but I do wonder if they are equal in strength to Yama. They are protecting the SS King, so I imagine they would be special, be their ability or overall prowess.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 17, 2011, 07:56 AM
I'd say some of the Royal Guards can be stronger than Yama, but not many, cause even being specially trained it's difficult to surpass Yama. He even bare handedly showed enough to trash the majority of the Captains of Gotei.
I think that Their should be some monsters who are in the Royal Guard for the same time as Yama is Captain Commander. There should be a beast like Captain Commander of Royal Guard and his Vice Captain. Others should be around Isshin's, Shunsui's, Ukitake's, Unohana's level. Also there maybe some Captains that were ecsepcionally good in some fields like Tessai, Urahara and Yoruichi. I think that Byakuya is a bit weak for the Royal Guard.
Also Yama said that there was noone stronger than him being born in SS in a 1000 years, but he didn't mentioned Royal Dimension. There may also be some beasts to become part of the Royal Guard.

Raizen
February 17, 2011, 11:54 AM
I'd say some of the Royal Guards can be stronger than Yama, but not many, cause even being specially trained it's difficult to surpass Yama. He even bare handedly showed enough to trash the majority of the Captains of Gotei.
I think that Their should be some monsters who are in the Royal Guard for the same time as Yama is Captain Commander. There should be a beast like Captain Commander of Royal Guard and his Vice Captain. Others should be around Isshin's, Shunsui's, Ukitake's, Unohana's level. Also there maybe some Captains that were ecsepcionally good in some fields like Tessai, Urahara and Yoruichi. I think that Byakuya is a bit weak for the Royal Guard.
Also Yama said that there was noone stronger than him being born in SS in a 1000 years, but he didn't mentioned Royal Dimension. There may also be some beasts to become part of the Royal Guard.
I agree for the most part. I believe most if not all of the RG members will be along the lines of shunsui's/uki's strength. With the VC maybe close to yama's level and the commander may even be a bit stronger than yama.

I personally believed that shunsui, uki, and unohana were offered the position of RG but they denied it :amuse. But i guess we'll find out
[hr]

I agree with you. I also haven't taken Yama's words to be an established fact. There are always unknowns. How much Urahara or Isshin improved, Yama did not know. Same could be said about RG. I also consider the proud, confident and even at times arrogant personality of Yama. His words are not the end of the story, to put it in away. Oops getting off-topic.

IIRC, Royal Guards do not report to Yama, correct? Is it an indication of their strength? Can we use this reference to establish or gauge how strong they could be? I can't say definitely but I do wonder if they are equal in strength to Yama. They are protecting the SS King, so I imagine they would be special, be their ability or overall prowess.
By that same admission, we should take everything every character says with a grain of salt. Once u start nitpicking about what to believe and what to disregard, u lose focus of what the author is trying to show. There is a reason why kubo stated what he did.

RG or not, those shinigamis would technically still have to go thru SS and work up their ranks. Though i somewhat agree the strength of teh RG are questionable, but i seriously doubt urahara or isshin is close to yama's level

Gran Maestro
February 17, 2011, 12:25 PM
Yamamoto can estimate how powerful a character will be in the future. For example, Shunsui estimated that Hitsugaya could surpass him in 100 years time. Just because Yamamoto haven't seen some other shinigami in person, it doesn't mean he'll be completely clueless about their potential. The strength of these guys don't increase randomly, they, more or less, follow a known trend. Urahara knew Ichigo would surpass him. In that sense, I see no reason to ignore Yamamoto's words about Shunsui and Ukitake, not until the manga actually reveals that they're not that strong. Kubo wouldn't make Shunsui and Ukitake survive a fight with Yamamoto if these guys weren't strong. I don't think we have the right to challenge manga information by using assumptions and speculations.

Hikifune, the last member of RGs, was probably less powerful than Shunsui, in that sense I think most of the RGs are somewhere between Byakuya and Shunsui. The senior RGs may be as strong as Shunsui and the commander of RGs may be on par with or perhaps stronger than Yamamoto. RGs protect the King but Gotei 13 is first line of defense against threats targeting Royal Realm, so in that sense, I don't think the King would allow Gotei 13 to be powerless. I guess Yamamoto makes recommendations about potential RG members when asked (how else can the King know who to choose), perhaps he has never recommended Shunsui and Ukitake. I don't think any captain can refuse a promotion request from the King.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 17, 2011, 12:50 PM
I'd say that at least Urahara is clearly not even close to Yama's level. He never gave any impresion of being even superiour in Shinigami arts to Shunsui, not saying Yama. Urahara is clearly genius, but he isn't that powerful to be compared to Yama who can trash strong Captain level opponents with his bare hands and make by only reiatsu piss his opponents.:)

freshseth83
February 17, 2011, 05:41 PM
Yeah, it's funny that people say take Yama's words with a grain of salt, yet they were in the manga! So I guess Kubo made those words for us to not believe them huh? lol how funny. So who's words are we supposed to take as credible if not the damn captain commander? Even Ukitake said not a being alive is able to replace the CC. No one of his caliber exists. Royal Guard has yet to be seen so how can anyone say they'll be superior to even Byakuya? Retired is the correct word, as it has more than one meaning. You must have me wrong. I don't mean they called it quits, more like if you retire someone you relieve them of their position, that's not to say they can't be promoted. I even said that. So before you go challenging what I'm saying, you should read up. I'm sitting here agreeing with half of the people saying I'm wrong. Yet you're not getting me. I don't want to be misunderstood. Hikifune was said to be in the Royal Guard, correct? Now if Yama says that Shunsui and Ukitake were the best captains he's seen, I'd take her into account too, seeing as she was captain at the same time as Shunsui Ukitake Unohana and co. They were captains for over 100 years as of 100 years ago, so at least 200 years of being a captain. They even spoke of Yoruichi Shinji etc. as being young captains. I guess they're words are to be taken with a grain of salt too?

Why are we discrediting manga facts with statements from the head of the Gotei 13? It's not like he's Aizen gloating around saying he's superior to everything, then fails.

Jackk
February 17, 2011, 07:40 PM
Yamamoto never said that Shunsui and Ukitake were the best captains.

Raizen
February 17, 2011, 09:48 PM
Yamamoto never said that Shunsui and Ukitake were the best captains.
Courtesy of Gran:



Back on topic. Quevache from BA forums made an analysis of what Yamamoto said (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/10/) about Shunsui and Ukitake upon my request. Thanks to him for all his efforts, it seems the translation was indeed a hard one. I'll put spoiler tags because it's kinda long.


ANALYSES OF CONTENTIOUS DATA 5
The Prodig(i)al "Sons" - BLEACH 155 "Redoundable deeds/Redoubtable babies" pg. 10

Soshite hitotabi tatakai to nare ba sono chikara taru ya chouitsu zetsujin
Douhai nimo sendatsu nimo narabumono-nashi

And once it came to battle, that power was surpassing, breaking from the dust of earth.
No peers, nor rivals; without equal.



BREAKDOWN
This new "demo" section will provide a more lit. breakdown of the Japanese passage (as I mentioned in posts above), to better inform people on what was actually present therein, and what words were my own insertions to make the English translation grammatically sensible in English.

Where I can, I'll try to incorporate the traditional categories of Japanese grammatical moods etc., but I should probably devote a post by itself to these for better review, when I have the time. Again, I'm no pro, but I'll endeavor to be as thorough and accurate as possible in all matters... sorry if I FAIL hard.

Elements already broken down will not be repeated, e.g. if the word tatakai "battle" is used multiple times, it'll only be broken down at the first instance.

This is exhaustive, so I may add to this in steps. Stay tuned!

soshite and (then), and (now); thus (conj.)
apparent. < demonstrative root so- "there, that" (distal, i.e. far from the speaker) + shite "do(ing)," gerund of suru "do"
thus perhaps the sense "thus, and (then/now)" < "so-doing, (in) doing that"

hitotabi once, one time, on a time; temporarily, for a moment (adv.n.)
a kun-reading form of more common ichido "one time, once," < ichi | hito- "one, single" + do | tabi "time, occasion"

tatakai battle, fight
infin. as verb. n. < tatakau "battle, fight, strive with" (intr.v.)

to nare ba if it came to
to conj. particle used to connect tatakai to nare ba
nare ba if it became < nare, hypothetical of naru become, be (of), consist of + ba (conj. particle)

sono that
sono that (demons. adj.) < demonstrative root so- "there, that" (distal)

chikara power, might

taru ya (topic particle, used to introduce the topic of a discussion with *emphasis*)

chouitsu zetsujin surpass (as though) break(ing from the) dust
poetic for supernal or marvelous skill or ability
chouitsu "surpass (and) outpace" < chou "surpass, exceed; sur-, super-" + itsu "pass along, rut"
zetsujin "break" or "sever dust" < zetsu "sever, break, end" + jin "dust"
seems to indicate figurative senses similar to those of English "outrun" etc. *and* "leave in the dust"/"hardly touch the ground"

narabumono equal, rival (n.)
narabu line up, stand in line; rival, match, equal (intr.v.)
-mono thing, one (n. suff.)


NOTES
This one was a bigger pain in the neck than I'd thought, esp. with Yamamoto speaking, since he uses a lot of archaisms and idioms typical of "elder" speakers. Thus, I hope my suggestions here are mostly correct (I believe they are, despite the difficulties).

Note again that, as with most translations, elements such as "the," "you(r)" etc. are sometimes inserted just to make the English version grammatically intelligible. If you have more detailed inquiries about what was there spelled-out and what wasn't, please post the query below in a message on the thread.

An example is one of the very first elements, chouitsu zetsujin. I couldn't find this anywhere in my normal sources, but actually found it in a Japanese gloss. It's apparently a poetic expression--whose antiquity requires explanations even for the Japanese to understand it--meaning something like "(so extraordinary as to be like a horse that) surpasses (all others as if) breaking from the dust (of the ground)." Chou is "surpass" and is also used as a prefix "over-, super-," while itsu is to "surpass, run ahead of." Zetsu is "cut, sever, break from," and jin is "dust, dirt." Perhaps the allusion is made to horses so strong and fast that they break from the rest and move so forcefully that they seem to "break from the dust" (i.e. "their fleet feet never seem to touch the ground")? If so, it would show interesting parallels with such English expressions, and others like "ahead of the pack" and "leave in the dust."

I underline the part "that power" to "translate" the fact that Yamamoto speaks of it in conjunction with taru ya, which is used to introduce a topic of discussion emphatically.

After this translation, I asked him to clarify whether Yamamoto was talking in past tense, i.e. their surpassing power was a thing of the past? Here is the answer:

This is actually one of the cases where I think my trans. may benefit from an additional layer, one I just discussed in my newest post in the "Encyclopedia" thread. This layer would be a *more* lit. point-by-point breakdown of the Japanese passages, to show where English grammar required insertion of words not present in said Japanese.

For example, to make the passage intelligible by English grammatical rules, I insert some pronouns not present in the raws, as Japanese has less necessity for pronouns in many cases than does English. Similarly here: the insertion of English past tense "was" is my own. It was, I guess, intended to cast Yamamoto's story in a kind of aorist "historical present" tense (speaking of past events as though they were currently happening to enhance the storytelling, like in English "So there I was: I opened the door..."). The more lit. breakdown of the line you cited would be (/|/ separates words):

Soshite hitotabi tatakai to nare ba sono chikara taru ya chouitsu zetsujin
Douhai nimo sendatsu nimo narabumono-nashi

And (then/now)/thus | once/on a time/one time | battle/fight (NOUN) | to (ADV. PARTICLE) | if-became | that | power | taru ya (EMPHATIC TOPIC PARTICLE) | surpass/outrun | sever/break (from) dust |
Peer | (not) even/neither | leader/pioneer | (not) even/nor | rival/(stand-to)-match/equal (VERB)-one | -without

As can be seen in the (admittedly somewhat complex ) breakdown above, few verbs are there to be had. So a more lit. translation, such as

"And once became battle that power surpass break-dust
Peer not leader nor equal one-without"

sounds strange in English. This is one of the great banes of translation from Japanese: things like who or what is being referred to or affected by the verbs can stay ambiguous and are only "implied," if that. Words that generally would require verbal aspects in English can stand alone in a kind of "default infinitive," resembling a noun (e.g. chouitsu zetsujin).

Maybe I should've gone more lit. with sendatsu "leader, pioneer" (< "fore-cleaved/attached"). The implication, it seems, was that their power had "neither peer nor (one that could) master (it)"--i.e. "get the best/mastery of them." I used "rival," though, because I feared the more poetic/expressive "master" would be confusing, and lead to spurious speculation like "that means Yamamoto is weaker than them?!" Here's where additions to the current "NOTES" section will likely come in handy.

So nothing implies that Ukiraku's greatness is now a thing of the past, to be supplanted by the new generation. As far as we know, they're still top-notch, and Kyouraku cites that even prodigious Hitsugaya would require another 100(?) years to surpass him.


Conclusion: As Yamamoto stated, Shunsui and Ukitake's power is yet to be surpassed by their peers and rivals. Aizen is an exception because Yamamoto had no idea about his true strength but Yamamoto had had the chance to witness/judge the abilities of every other captain and thus as their commander, he's qualified to make such an assessment.

Jackk
February 17, 2011, 11:02 PM
First of all, Yama was completely unaware of anything that Kisuke and the vaizards had been doing for the passed 100+ years. Not to mention that Yama was also completely unaware of Aizen's true nature and power as well...

Further, Yama complimented Shunsui's and Ukitake's combined power, and Yama was also more referring to them during the academy days. Particularly because when Yama is talking about them...we're shown flashbacks of Shunsui and Ukitake in their academy days, wearing the academy uniform etc.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-155/page009.html

thornofcarrion
February 18, 2011, 01:37 AM
I find it hard to believe every word a character says, you can argue that its what Kubo want to tell us. But is it really a valid reason? Aizen thought himself to be unbeatable and god etc., but he was beaten in the end. We readers accept the words from certain characters as an undeniable fact. Or sometime we question them too much. Its all good I guess.

About RG, at this point of time, we can only speculate. We can not pass on any speculation as a fact. The reason I think RG might be a level above captains is simply because, in real world, top soldiers or guards are usually appointed to guard important figures. If its the King, then I will assume most powerful shinigamis should be guarding him.

Yama may be stronger than RG or may be not. I will at least put him equal to RG if not stronger or weaker. As Gotei 13 is first line of defense for SS King. It needs to be strong, and it needs a really strong leader. If an enemy or force is able to defeat first line of defense and the second or last line of defense is weaker or at the same level, how would they be defending the king? For this reason, I believe RG should be stronger and more capable. They don't need to be stronger as individuals but as a group.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 18, 2011, 03:24 AM
Jackk
Even after coming back during the battle with Aizen Kisuke wasn't in any way better than Yama against Aizen. The same goes for the Vaizards, even though I like them very much. In fact none of the Vaizards won his fight exept Hachi, so Yama was never proved wrong.
And Yama did say that Shunsui's and Ukitake's abilities compliment each other and the power is unrivaled by anyone who came before and since you.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-609-9/bleach/chapter-155.html

peleihno
March 03, 2011, 05:44 PM
Royal Guard(RG) are an interesting group. Also I think whomever leads them, is someone around Yama-jii's age and level of experience. Thus having strength near or on level with him. Besides that person, doubt we will ever see such a powerful shinigami.

But what's interesting is how these members are chosen. I doubt strength is the only reason for the "promotion". Kirio Hikifune is the only member we know of. Interestingly enough Yama said she was "ordered to relinquish her position" in order to meet up with the RG. So does that mean you don't have a choice? Maybe Kirio never desired to join up with them. Seems one is obligated to accept the position. How the members are chosen is interesting by itself.
Just a thought....

En Yang Ji
May 27, 2011, 02:53 PM
Assuming that top tier abilities as a shinigami are the only requirements to become Royal Guard material, than Inaba and Kouga are definitely RG material. What do you guys think?