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Tsukisama
April 11, 2008, 06:02 AM
The latest chapter of Bleach is now available for your review (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29139).

Please post your discussion of this chapter here, as well as any thoughts that you might have concerning the next chapter.

taimoor2
April 11, 2008, 06:04 AM
So now we learned what maggot nest is! Mayuri being a dangerous person? I would certainly like to know more about him now!

Quetz
April 11, 2008, 06:06 AM
What a boring chapter. Mayuri used to be locked up and urahara is super strong. Nothing really cool going on here...

sabret00the
April 11, 2008, 06:49 AM
Wohoo, the science division is born. And nice badassery by Urahara there.

koruma
April 11, 2008, 06:53 AM
I have always wondered why was Mayuri a Captain... You know he always looked like a extremely dangerous guy, a captain of the supposedly good guys, wanting to experiment in ppl he defeated? :P (Not that SS is all that good, some rules there are not exactly what you expect from a 100% good place :P)
Anyway i never dreamed about Mayuri showing up on this Arc, now it opens a lot of possibilities for next Chapters, that 2 brilliant minds working together... I predict the beginning of the 12th division as the research squad :) But more important, they will for for sure to some experiments, and somehow Aizen will get involved in the middle. I fail to see the point in Hiyori being there with Urahara as i don't believe the experiment has something to do with Vaizards. He would need her trust first and imo all the Vaizards have chosen their paths.
Always nice to add also that Urahara's reason to be banned is showing up, going against Central 46 and unlocking prisioners :P Even if they still let mayuri out i don't believe they can forgive Kisuke
Cya :)

Koen
April 11, 2008, 06:59 AM
hmmm,

I wonder if the gang of the household of urahara used to be withdrawals too? You know the moustache guy, the girl and the boy. It might be that mayuri and urahara have planned something against the hyougoku. I really think this story is to reveal some secret plan or mayuri and urahara against whoever got his hand on the hyogoku. Rukia was part of it but Urahara must prolly have known about the danger and the possibility of someone getting his hand on the hyougoku (in case aizen). I think vaizards share a link in it

Akainu
April 11, 2008, 07:07 AM
quite an interesting chapter, as this whole 'turn back the pendulum' thing is.
might be a dumb question, but does anyone know whether this 'arc' is really going to last another 105 chapters telling all the backstory?
anyway I was surprised that mayuri was a prisoner ... that's a nice career ^^

Tendou88
April 11, 2008, 07:09 AM
imo Bleach is better than Naruto so far.

About Kisuke blocking that big hand with his small hand, could it be that Aizen has been here too ? referring to when he block Ichigos bankai slash with one hand.

And why is it -106 ?? is it a countdown to final chapter ?

koruma
April 11, 2008, 07:32 AM
quite an interesting chapter, as this whole 'turn back the pendulum' thing is.
might be a dumb question, but does anyone know whether this 'arc' is really going to last another 105 chapters telling all the backstory?
anyway I was surprised that mayuri was a prisoner ... that's a nice career ^^
I really doubt that it can last 105 Chapters... 2 years of a single arc :o

Vizard5
April 11, 2008, 08:04 AM
i was thinking that i would go down to -100 but that might not be enaugh now i see.. but man.. mayuri looked even wierder then than he do now.. i have a feeling that mayuri can't be trusted and that urahara is going to learn that the hard way..

Toby_Temple
April 11, 2008, 08:09 AM
What a boring chapter. Mayuri used to be locked up and urahara is super strong. Nothing really cool going on here...

i don't agree. that chapter was very informative. it revealed alot about the way Soul Society handle matters in their world.

Travis
April 11, 2008, 08:33 AM
i was thinking that i would go down to -100 but that might not be enaugh now i see.. but man.. mayuri looked even wierder then than he do now.. i have a feeling that mayuri can't be trusted and that urahara is going to learn that the hard way..

I was thinking the same thing since someone mentioned Kubo said it would be like 8 chapters, but it may be longer. Although, I think it will skip a couple years here and there to get to the point of Urahara being a well developed captain and 12th division becoming that research squad. I don't think it's likely that he would create the hougykou immediately after becoming captain, but we'll see.

Eye of the tiger
April 11, 2008, 08:37 AM
Kubo's on a roll... excellent gaiden arc. Interesting to see the way the science division is coming into existence using "dangerous people". Maybe Urahara's overall goal in making the hougyoku and "harnessing the abilities of the dangerous shinigami to convert them into potent asset" was to bring everything under a just/good rule. Maybe he was trying to create something that would "convert" hollows into "good" souls/shinigami and made the hougyoku for that. It is already clear from this chapter that he does not agree with how the central 46 operate or their rules and yoruichi probably shares that sentiment. Shinji's staement that he's gonna do what he's gonna do in any case now makes more sense. Maybe thats the real reason he got banished.

conn-man
April 11, 2008, 09:34 AM
man, soul society history is one of my favorite things about bleach. i'll admit that this chapter was kinda slow but still really iteresting.

Antillio
April 11, 2008, 09:36 AM
It took 17 pages to tell us the maggot's nest was a prison and that he was from the Special Detention Force. kinda disapointed here...

Schabrak
April 11, 2008, 10:03 AM
This is not an suprise egg, you can not get three things in one chapter.^^ That's more info about Urahara than we got in one or two whole years.

Streifen
April 11, 2008, 10:10 AM
well, being locked up there means that mayuri was already a part of gotei 13 before right?.... well he stated that those who were in central 46 and planned to withdraw of some sort were not permitted and they were locked up instead right?

OdaForPresident
April 11, 2008, 10:23 AM
I still think Urahara getting banished has something to do with the creation of the vaizards, maybe the Gotai were worried that he and the other (vaizard) captains would try to take over soul society. Would be kinda strange though seeing as they still trust him (giving him the important job of sending the captians from ss to the real world). Still an interesting chapter this one, though not as good as the previous one, birth of the science devision is kinda cool. I don't think were gonna see anything drastic yet in the next chapter, probably have to wait a couple weeks for that.

Schabrak
April 11, 2008, 11:03 AM
But now we know the truth about Yurouchi, Urahara and the Vaizards. They did not do a crime but were just to dangerous for the Gotei 13.^^ And instead of being captured in that building they are free in the human world.

gcd
April 11, 2008, 11:03 AM
Boring chapter, i expected to much i think.

chrisb3
April 11, 2008, 11:08 AM
I'm not sure where this will go now.

Mayuri cannot do anything wrong, the only thing he can do is prove he's not dangerous to Soul Society and get his freedom OR if Urahara has already freed him, he can only justify that desision by being good/useful.

Urahara cannot do anything wrong if he was exiled 100 years ago, and the vaisard 110 years ago. That assumes that that info is correct (haven't checked the chapters) and that this arc will not have any big time jumps.

Aizen cannot do anything wrong, everything has to be done in secret.


So what is going to happen? All those Captains and Officers have to be exiled/leave somehow. It's a puzzle.

Franckie
April 11, 2008, 11:11 AM
These past few chapters have been excellent, especially with Mayuri in the current chapter. Any chapter with Mayuri = Awesome. :D

Quetz
April 11, 2008, 11:31 AM
i don't agree. that chapter was very informative. it revealed alot about the way Soul Society handle matters in their world.

all you got was that people don't retire, they get retired.....i mean you're obviously entitled to your opinion (and I wish i could agree with you on this one), but I really didn't see too much of interest, I was just expecting more I guess

Raimaru
April 11, 2008, 11:32 AM
I think the high negative number of chapters is just a way to express how far away in past compared to the actual story this story arc is.
Also, the relevation at the end was very nice. Gotei 13 was sensing Mayuri's potential madness at least some time ago.

The Hougyoku is a tool to erase borders (between shinigami and hollow). I think it has some different powers too. I can't see a reason for Urahara to create such a device to create vaizards/arrancars at that time. He must have had a different use for this tool.

ducesx
April 11, 2008, 11:42 AM
I really doubt that it can last 105 Chapters... 2 years of a single arc :o

I'm pretty confident it will actually considering the -15 chapter already is out since a few weeks. Maybe Kubo will mix it up with some HM-chapters in between though? I'm really liking this gaiden arc though, it really gives Bleach much more substance and depth which in my mind it was lacking somewhat before.

Edit: -15 can be found here. (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/303.1/)

patedecarne
April 11, 2008, 12:08 PM
Even with little plot development, the chapter was great, at least in the explanations, and the thing about Mayuri was very interesting too; Urahara is gathering certain people for a unknown reason, which is great, because something big will happen

And this gaiden is amazing; I believe we won't see any fights there, and it's a good thing, because we need all this explanations, the fights will come later in the current time, but for now, the plot is develop very very well!

TheChosenOne
April 11, 2008, 12:09 PM
These past few chapters have been excellent, especially with Mayuri in the current chapter. Any chapter with Mayuri = Awesome. :D

I agree, his fight was the only one that was great against the espada's. I wonder what position Mayuri held when he was in the Gotei 13. Hopefully Kubo also explains his appearence and why it changes, or he changed it. :)

It was a great chapter though the plot didn't move forward much, but the introduction of Mayuri was satisfying. Hopefully next chapter continues to explain and explore, wonder why Urahara is able to take Mayuri out of the Maggots Nest, when it was stated that no one is permitted to leave. :confused

◆ T.D.A ◆
April 11, 2008, 12:36 PM
To me Urahara and Aizen are very alike, both are geniuses and have mysterious ideas.

Zan2pacto
April 11, 2008, 12:42 PM
here is the answer:

Uruhara makes viazards. They are misunderstood. Since they are so powerful central 46 might attempt to put them in the maggots nest and possibly execute them (they don't even need a zanpak to don thier masks and start firing ceros). We might even have a viazard go nuts and get killed by his hollow.

This will result in uruhara feeling bad, making them all untraceable gigais and they all get kicked along with Yoruichi who aids in their escape.

MegaX
April 11, 2008, 01:06 PM
I'll be honest, when Urahara mentioned the prisoner in solitary, I was half-expecting Isshin.

patedecarne
April 11, 2008, 01:23 PM
Well, I believe in the next 2 chapters, we'll see the first Vaizard, Hiyori; she's with Urahara, and still we don't know Kisuke's true intentions, and that what bugs me:

He need Mayuri in his plan; he also thinks that those "dangerous" mind could be useful if used in correctly way, the we can conclude he'll use mayuri's intelect in some way, possibly to help SS; and in the process, something goes wrong;

and exactly how the puzzle's piece Aizen will be placed in this huge puzzle?

I believe that in some point, he used Kyouka Suigetsu to make Urahara and others involved people believe that they're doing the right thing, and then all will be messed...

Toby_Temple
April 11, 2008, 01:55 PM
all you got was that people don't retire, they get retired.....i mean you're obviously entitled to your opinion (and I wish i could agree with you on this one), but I really didn't see too much of interest, I was just expecting more I guess

i think we got more than that. we learned more about Urahara and Soul Society. someone mentioned that its like a history lesson.

well, i'm kinda into novels so i dig the wordy part of the manga :p
but shonenwise, i guess actions speak louder than words :D

KyanWan
April 11, 2008, 02:11 PM
here is the answer:

Uruhara makes viazards. They are misunderstood. Since they are so powerful central 46 might attempt to put them in the maggots nest and possibly execute them (they don't even need a zanpak to don thier masks and start firing ceros). We might even have a viazard go nuts and get killed by his hollow.

This will result in uruhara feeling bad, making them all untraceable gigais and they all get kicked along with Yoruichi who aids in their escape.

YOU GOT IT - Man, that's almost exactly what I was thinking.

Urahura, Mayuri, Kisuke - think - whoa, to fight (whatever's coming up *next*) we need some stronger people. Their trusted subordinates volunteer to become Vaizard - and it works. The captains then take this up. Central complains - BAM - big problem. Urahura and Yourichi stand behind who they wronged - and go down with em.

Why ELSE would someone HATE SS & Shinigami?

Why would Urahura explain that:

"They haven't done anything wrong. They're just a potential danger to SS" (locked up in here for doing nothing wrong - committed no crime. ) Just look how Hiyori's taking it - something like "man, that's screwed up ... I don't understand it ..."

Now, again, can you think of a better reason why a Vaizard would HATE Shinigami other than having been accused of being "dangerous" - yet they haven't done anything wrong - eg, imprisoning the innocent.

I have a feeling this chapter is HUGE to the storyline. IMO - Zan2pacto's on the mark.

wooticus
April 11, 2008, 02:47 PM
i think urahara made tried to make isshin, strongest fighter of zero divsion into a vizard but
a) it failed and isshin lost his reiatsu so they had to leave to earth

b) isshin became so strongt that his powers were taken yoruichi, urahara and isshin were punished by losing their power and be sent to earth

D3M1URG3
April 11, 2008, 03:04 PM
Very interesting chapter overall, imo. As a Mayuri fan, this chapter pleases me in many ways.

someguy0830
April 11, 2008, 03:36 PM
Next one should be good. Time for Mayuri to get his experimenting on. Other than that, fairly straightforward chapter. Pretty in-depth stuff for a single round.

HokageMassashi
April 11, 2008, 04:24 PM
Not sure if any one else has stated this yet but:

I am beginning to think that a lot of the current 12th division members come from this prison. Maybe Urahara helped many of the current members receive leave from that place to join the 12th squad to aid in R&D. It's fairly obvious that the current 12th division is much different from the 12th division from 110 years ago. That leads me to believe that something big happened to the 12th division to almost completely change its members. This could deal with the vaizards. It's quite possible that the 12th division changed after Urahara's departure from SS, but i am thinking that with the formation and creation of the R&D Urahara completely change the division.

ShaunMati1
April 11, 2008, 04:40 PM
IMO this arc is all about the hougyoku, ya kubo is filling us in on how things work in SS and the divisions back then. But the first pendulum chapter a note on the side that said Urahara is the key to everything. The focus is all going to be on urahara because he created the hougyoku...obviously. If this flashback lasts 8 chapters i will be happy, although i love these chapters i would rather see how aizen got involved and the departure of urahara and then get back to the fights we had before this arc.

Im excited to see mayuri and urahara most likely working together. I hope its for the hougyoku or something relevant to the present time. Anyways, great chapter with a bundle of info that i enjoyed reading, but lets speed it up kubo bring on Ichigo vs Ulquiorra 2!!! ;)

Shiro-kun
April 11, 2008, 05:59 PM
It was a great chapter
We got info on what the of what 2nd division does and there many purposes that they serve in

and

Were finally getting to know how Mayuri comes into play .......


this Gaiden is building some stamina for the newer chapters to come ..

Grimjaww
April 11, 2008, 06:06 PM
Urahara can go from asking Mayuri about his opinion on the Research Department to help with a new invention. At this point it seems as if Urahara will somehow convince SS to free the prisoners. Like somoene pointed out earlier, the former 3rd division captain "retired" so I wonder if it is Mayuri or someone else?

AngryChubbs
April 11, 2008, 06:30 PM
well we all knew that mayuri was a cold hearted bastard who has no conscience...now we know that soul society agreed with this at one point. considering how he is the only one that is locked up and behind bars, i wonder what he has already done, im assuming he has done something since he is being treated so differently

notBowen
April 11, 2008, 06:38 PM
i wonder what he has already done, im assuming he has done something since he is being treated so differently
Are you forgetting Urahara already had said they've done nothing wrong?

TheChosenOne
April 11, 2008, 08:14 PM
Are you forgetting Urahara already had said they've done nothing wrong?

This scenario of "not having done anything wrong but going to" reminds me of the film, Minority Report. :)

Inchao
April 11, 2008, 08:49 PM
Beautiful!Exquisite!Ahahaha,sorry but yes it's a straightforward YET stunning chapter.Now,I see why Mayuri respects Urahara so much although considering his arrogance,it is as his gratitude to him for releasing him!Have you guys noticed that he never bad-mouth about Urahara?Yes,this chapter explains why :darn

mackazoid
April 11, 2008, 09:14 PM
anyone noticed that the guy who attacked hiyori and got stopped by urahara is actually one of the 4 guards of soul society gates??

someguy0830
April 11, 2008, 10:23 PM
He's too small. The gate guards are almost fifty feet tall. That guy couldn't be that big.

segua
April 11, 2008, 10:41 PM
If Isshin was a royal guard, that means he was a former captain which makes him an insanely strong person. But what's the connection with Isshin, Urahara, the Vizards?

It must be something that connected to the whole Vizards and Arrancar. Maybe to create stronger warriors, SS decided to create Mod Souls. Since it seems that Mod Souls were scraped, maybe SS wanted to see if they could create something similar to Arrancars using Shinigamis. So maybe a big scandal broke out among the 46 chambers and they had to shift blame to someone and that someone turned out to be Urahara. I'm sure Aizen must've been involved in the manipulation that led to the downfall of Urahara since Aizen was also admitted to have experimented with the whole shinigami/hollow thing.

Now I'm thinking that maybe Urahara days as a captain was short lived but long enough for people to recognized his strength and talents.

Jaime F.
April 11, 2008, 10:48 PM
The vaizards are pretty much the opposite of the arrancar, Shinigami to Vaizard or Hollow to arrancar they are a mix of Shinigami and Hollow powers. I'm guessing the hougokyu (not sure of spelling) also played a part in the creation of the vaizards same as the arrancar/espada. Aizen pretty much new how the hougokyu works and its potenial. This part of the story is getting pretty interesting and I can't wait until we get more answers.

notBowen
April 11, 2008, 10:52 PM
anyone noticed that the guy who attacked hiyori and got stopped by urahara is actually one of the 4 guards of soul society gates??
Not seeing it (and he certainly doesn't look like Jidanbou):http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2664/mangarainbleachch17709uj0.png
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/513/14gi3.png

Saifi
April 12, 2008, 02:01 AM
Not seeing it (and he certainly doesn't look like Jidanbou):http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2664/mangarainbleachch17709uj0.png
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/513/14gi3.png

ummm that pic doesnt show jidanbu and is kind of useless :-s

Hada-Kun
April 12, 2008, 02:37 AM
it does look like a well shaved, minature version of the east guardian. but he is not similar enough to jump to conclusions.

notBowen
April 12, 2008, 03:18 AM
ummm that pic doesnt show jidanbu and is kind of useless :-s It was my intention to indicate via what you may or may not have read in the parentheses that while we may have forgotten exactly what the other three gate guards look like, we should all remember to some extent what Jidanbou looks like, enough to know that this character from the new chapter looks nothing like him, and I felt I didn't even need to provide a visual.

And I still feel that way.

Richo
April 12, 2008, 03:28 AM
i am starting to understand why all the vaizards hate shinigami and SS, i could already imagine why they did before this chapter but now....
SS does things like some criminal organization: you cant say i am out in this work. On top of that all their criminals arent even criminals at all just pple who MIGHT be a threat to SS, and got locked up because they had different ideas wich didnt match SS their vieuws. Doesn't this sound like a dictatorship?

We all knew there was something wrong in mayuri his head before this chapter although this indeed confirms the central 46 agreed with us on that point.

Darek Khort
April 12, 2008, 04:51 AM
I agree with the idea that most of the inner-R&D guys in 12th Division most likely used to be from the maggot's nest. That's why you got all these ugly and weird-looking guys in research, like that really fat round guy, and the guy with the small devil-'horns'.

I too found this chapter very insightful. Sometimes a break from the fight after fight after fight is a good thing.

Koen
April 12, 2008, 05:32 AM
This will be the best thing I have ever read in bleach when everything is completed. That's already dediced. Sadly a chap is only 17-18 pages averaga but the story/setting is great and I am looking forward to next chapter to know more about mayuri and urahara their relationship (imo more than just releasing someone)

Hollow Kurono
April 12, 2008, 07:52 AM
Man Bleach is gettin better and better every week,so is the anime and manga,i loved this chapter,there were lots of babling,it hurt my eyes a bit,but it was good.When Urahara-san went to the cell,i knew it,i knew that its going to be Mayuri inside the room.

I think that in these past chapters are gonna show some secrets to why this is going on.


imo Bleach is better than Naruto so far.

About Kisuke blocking that big hand with his small hand, could it be that Aizen has been here too ? referring to when he block Ichigos bankai slash with one hand.

And why is it -106 ?? is it a countdown to final chapter ?

Yeah bleach is better,but naruto is not far behind,anime is better by far.But he newest Naruto chapter made it on equal grounds.

Hmm?About hte chapters,if youre right,you realy spoiled everything :D ,nah i just think its going back or something.

Megaman84
April 12, 2008, 11:47 AM
I must say that Bleach is pressing all the right buttons at the moment, the manga is throwing some great curveballs. My major worry lies with the anime, did anyone else read Dattebayo's rant on their website?

Xerte
April 12, 2008, 12:21 PM
things don't match...
if hougyaku was made by urahara it wouldn't have caused people to go "vaizard" just because of its existence..
if the hougyakou was done to make captain stronger, then all captain would be vaizard, but that is not correct...
if vaizard were an error caused by hougyaku, there would be 1 or 2 vaizard, because the others arent so stupid to go into trouble theirself...
this can be explained if they didn't go vaizard by their will...
then aizen must have done it because is 1 of the main evil...but why then only those?and why didn't he forced all to become vaizard?
and if aizen was using hougyakou, how did he take it? how did urahara manage to put it into rukia if it was taken by aizen?
mh... did i explain myself?

Schabrak
April 12, 2008, 12:34 PM
How about: They just wanted to be Vaizard themself! What about that idea? They started to be against the "rules" of the Gotei 13 and Soul Society, maybe started by Hyori, who is experiencing something with Urahara in this arc.

gigantor21
April 12, 2008, 02:05 PM
I'd have to say that Urahara being able to fight barehanded was almost as surprising as seeing Mayuri (I swear, he gets weirder with every new redesign). But that point also seemed like an excuse to stretch out the the chapter, along with the ridiculously exhaustive description of who is put into the maggot's nest. I found that a little suspicious.

Hopefully, that dense level of exposition will serve crucial to the Vaizard's development. I don't like the idea of Kubo stretching things out in a Gaiden arc.

Schabrak
April 12, 2008, 02:17 PM
But that is a whole more explained than last week, when we where told about "Maggots Nest". In the end no one of us has thought of this.^^
He can take all his time, because he has over 100 chapters to tell us a little bit about the vaizard and Isshin. There is nothing more unexplained that can not be explained otherwise.

akatsuki27
April 12, 2008, 02:35 PM
so, it has finally been officially explained why urahara's gigai got him thrown out of SS....it's because you cant just walk out on the gotei 13....lol, SS is like Cuba, you get put in jail or worse if you are deemed a threat and you have to sneak out of the country to leave (only to U.S., but still)....and since his gigais are not only untraceable but turn you into a human, that would get him banned quickly

also, now i see why he created it in the first place too....since he already knew about the no-escape policy, you'd wonder why he would create such a thing but the way he was talking about the inmates, you could tell he felt sorry for them...especially since he said that they can still be put to use

also, mayuri being an inmate doesnt surprise me at all, and the fact that he is the only one that has to be locked up is even less surprising considering he blows up his own squad members, lol....this gaiden has been very entertaining, i hope the intensity continues, which, if we are talking about vaizards and urahara, you know it will

Curufinwe
April 12, 2008, 02:50 PM
if you ask me

i use to like naruto alot more them bleach (past time skip) but since time skip i prefer bleach i camnt take it anymore of those damn uchiha. Soon there eye will make them ... ohh wait they already do everything wih those eye

and now bleach is just awesome after that boring HH arc we learn everything

i cant wait too get some info of kenpachi because i think with those chap we will learn more about each captain/vilain

i pretty sure he create the gigai for ichigo father and maybe thise mother too.Because urahara seeing to know isshin pretty well



Uruhara makes viazards. They are misunderstood. Since they are so powerful central 46 might attempt to put them in the maggots nest and possibly execute them (they don't even need a zanpak to don thier masks and start firing ceros). We might even have a viazard go nuts and get killed by his hollow.

This will result in uruhara feeling bad, making them all untraceable gigais and they all get kicked along with Yoruichi who aids in their escape.

yep i think you are right for the vaizard except for the gigai part

Tsukisama
April 12, 2008, 03:15 PM
I enjoyed this chapter. It was not filled with a lot of stuff that made me say "OMG!" like the previous chapters of the gaiden, but the information gained in -106 was still very insightful.

I am glad that Kubo finally has given some good exposition on the Secret Ops. (Now, all he needs to do is get to the Kidou Corps and Royal Guard, preferrably in that order. :)) The connection between the Secret Mobile Corps and the 2nd division is finally officially cleared up, and on top of that one more of its divisions is named, leaving only the fourth division of Secret Ops left.

Before this chapter, I never would have pegged Urahara as being all that amazing in unarmed combat (hakuda); so, that bit of information was quite surprising. As soon as I saw this, I thought this must be Kubo setting up for an Urahara fight later. Given this chapter, I feel certain that Urahara is going to pull of some sort of impressive feat unarmed against his next opponent.

Mayuri showing in this chapter did not surprise me that much. I've always imagined that he had a hand in helping Urahara found the Shinigami Research Institute; so, I figured that he would pop up somewhere sooner or later. What was surprising about Mayuri's appearance in this chapter (besides the fact that he has yet another look :blink) was that he was the big, mystery prisoner. If I hadn't already seen spoilers for the chapter, I would have thought that Urahara was going there to pick up someone else (like perhaps Isshin but I guess that would just be too much wishful thinking :p). Mayuri certainly seems like the type of person that would be in special detention though.


This scenario of "not having done anything wrong but going to" reminds me of the film, Minority Report. :)

I thought the exact same thing when Urahara was going over SS's preemptive punishment practice. It also seems to foreshadow that the vizards will be labelled criminals before they have a chance to do something.


I'd have to say that Urahara being able to fight barehanded was almost as surprising as seeing Mayuri (I swear, he gets weirder with every new redesign). But that point also seemed like an excuse to stretch out the the chapter, along with the ridiculously exhaustive description of who is put into the maggot's nest. I found that a little suspicious.

Hopefully, that dense level of exposition will serve crucial to the Vaizard's development. I don't like the idea of Kubo stretching things out in a Gaiden arc.

I somewhat disagree. I would not like it if Kubo stretched out this gaiden with useless filler, since the gaiden is already so short and its sole purpose is to give poignant background information, but I think that so far Kubo has not really put in that much, if any, filler. The exposition was wonderful, because it expanded the universe of Bleach and Urahara's speech revealed SS's paternalistic approach to justice.

Given the emphasis that was placed on Hiyori's reaction to this new knowledge and her refusal to accept the practices as fair, I am sure this newly revealed outlook on SS justice will play a part with the vizard's departure from and hatred of SS.


He can take all his time, because he has over 100 chapters to tell us a little bit about the vaizard and Isshin. There is nothing more unexplained that can not be explained otherwise.

This gaiden won't last for about 100 chapters. I can't imagine Kubo would have that much background information to tell us in preparation for the coming battles. In some interview, Kubo apparently said this gaiden would last for about 8 chapters. At the rate things are going, I doubt Isshin will be a major part of this gaiden.

Perhaps Kubo may decide to do another gaiden or at least devote a chapter or two to background information for other characters besides Urahara and the vizards. Kubo has already stated in previous interviews that he plans on exploring Kenpachi Zaraki's past, like Kenpachi's origins and the original Yachiru. He could also decide to do the same with Isshin and his story too.

Schabrak
April 12, 2008, 03:45 PM
I never said, that it Isshins story will be told in this gaiden, but Kubo has a contingent to use for "flashbacks". I'm more than happy enough of what we have seens till now and 5 more chapters will be more than enough to explain some vaizard background plot.
And as you and I have pointed out somewhere, the policy and reasoning of the SS are what make the vaizard leave the Gotei 13.

kat_at_heart
April 12, 2008, 04:48 PM
i think they are spending way to much time on these recent chaters e.g. hiyor's relationship with urahara and i bet next chapter, we wont find out what urahara wants with mayuri until the verry end

Grimjaww
April 12, 2008, 05:03 PM
I never said, that it Isshins story will be told in this gaiden, but Kubo has a contingent to use for "flashbacks". I'm more than happy enough of what we have seens till now and 5 more chapters will be more than enough to explain some vaizard background plot.
And as you and I have pointed out somewhere, the policy and reasoning of the SS are what make the vaizard leave the Gotei 13.

I think it will take more then 5 chapters to explain everything about the vaizard to be honest. I mean we have to find out how they become vaizard. Why they get kicked out. Who was the first one to suppress their hollow. Are there any who lost to their hollow?

There's much to be explored, but at this point i think kubo is going to show us what led to the creation of the Hougyoku or the Science department since Mayuri is involved now.

Karma
April 12, 2008, 08:40 PM
I'm getting mixed up here... Mayuri isn't he already a captain? and he already in the Hallow world fighting..

So how can he be a prisoner? is it a flashback? some one explain to me.. plus that little girl going around with urahara, isn't she a Visard that come to the earth to teach Ichigo how to use is visard mode?

someguy0830
April 12, 2008, 09:00 PM
It's one big flashback, hence the negative chapter numbers.

Tsukisama
April 12, 2008, 10:36 PM
I'm getting mixed up here... Mayuri isn't he already a captain? and he already in the Hallow world fighting..

So how can he be a prisoner? is it a flashback? some one explain to me.. plus that little girl going around with urahara, isn't she a Visard that come to the earth to teach Ichigo how to use is visard mode?

This is a gaiden mini-arc focusing on the origin of the vizards and also Urahara apparently. The gaiden started two chapters ago with -108 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/). This gaiden takes place 110 years prior to the current time. None of the current vizards have become vizards yet.

madelyn7
April 12, 2008, 11:04 PM
I must say that Bleach is pressing all the right buttons at the moment, the manga is throwing some great curveballs. My major worry lies with the anime, did anyone else read Dattebayo's rant on their website?

I didn't see it but I'd like to read it. Could you please link me?

Karma
April 12, 2008, 11:43 PM
This is a gaiden mini-arc focusing on the origin of the vizards and also Urahara apparently. The gaiden started two chapters ago with -108 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/). This gaiden takes place 110 years prior to the current time. None of the current vizards have become vizards yet. I get u now...


so am i seeing right? is that Visard guy who was helping ichigo was a captain? Azin was even calling him captain... my my.. So he's very strong then.. damn... i guess when he say bout he might have to hurt ichigo he was actually serious about it..


when the black guy talking about kenpachi as if he was a captain before azin.. hmmm is they going back and forward in time?

So what i'm understanding.. all those visard except for the little girl was all captain before.. damn!

segua
April 12, 2008, 11:46 PM
Damn right he was serious about it. Also, it seemed that those other guys are really strong too. I don't doubt the strength of the Vizards.

Now I'm starting to think if Urahara might be a Vizard or so. It seems that for Urahara, his shinkai form could handle most situations. Can't wait to see the day Urahara goes all out.

Well, let's see how this gaiden series conclude.

soarz
April 13, 2008, 12:12 AM
is the gaiden taking 100 chapters?

someguy0830
April 13, 2008, 12:14 AM
For the third or fourth time, no. It's only going to last two months. That's six or eight more chapters, max.

Sa-sori
April 13, 2008, 05:48 AM
This gaiden is 2 years long??

Chill0
April 13, 2008, 06:42 AM
This gaiden is 2 years long??

hahahahaa ... No xD its just an indication that it was aproximaly 100 years previous to current events. Every new chapter doesnt eqaul 1 year though :). last i heared it was gonna be around 2 months, but 8 chapters sounds on the small side of things so i expect it to be around 10 to 12.

Megaman84
April 13, 2008, 07:41 AM
I didn't see it but I'd like to read it. Could you please link me?

Its not on there anymore but basically it was ranting about people putting there videos on you-tube and how they are going to cease to release anymore Bleach subs :S

patedecarne
April 13, 2008, 10:01 AM
hahahahaa ... No xD its just an indication that it was aproximaly 100 years previous to current events. Every new chapter doesnt eqaul 1 year though :). last i heared it was gonna be around 2 months, but 8 chapters sounds on the small side of things so i expect it to be around 10 to 12.

Yes, only 8 chapters seems too little explain all the things! But maybe Kubo could go further in this gaiden, extending the events in one or two more months, because people's reaction to this gaiden are positive!

gigantor21
April 13, 2008, 10:48 AM
I somewhat disagree. I would not like it if Kubo stretched out this gaiden with useless filler, since the gaiden is already so short and its sole purpose is to give poignant background information, but I think that so far Kubo has not really put in that much, if any, filler. The exposition was wonderful, because it expanded the universe of Bleach and Urahara's speech revealed SS's paternalistic approach to justice.

Given the emphasis that was placed on Hiyori's reaction to this new knowledge and her refusal to accept the practices as fair, I am sure this newly revealed outlook on SS justice will play a part with the vizard's departure from and hatred of SS.

Well, that's the thing. Given that the gaiden will only last 2-3 months, spending an entire chapter explaining/revealing just 1 or 2 things seems a bit wasteful. I just got the sense that he could've shortened it, so as to leave more room to push things forward--though I agree that expounding on SS's background is WAY better than "humor" or fighting. :p


This gaiden won't last for about 100 chapters. I can't imagine Kubo would have that much background information to tell us in preparation for the coming battles. In some interview, Kubo apparently said this gaiden would last for about 8 chapters. At the rate things are going, I doubt Isshin will be a major part of this gaiden.

Perhaps Kubo may decide to do another gaiden or at least devote a chapter or two to background information for other characters besides Urahara and the vizards. Kubo has already stated in previous interviews that he plans on exploring Kenpachi Zaraki's past, like Kenpachi's origins and the original Yachiru. He could also decide to do the same with Isshin and his story too.

I'm hoping for more Gaiden arcs myself, but how would he weave it into the story? It's not like there's much left. If he's going to pace the next big arc like a real war, with several big battles, skirmishes, and down periods, then it could be possible, but seeing as all the big players are now in one place I doubt that'll happen.

patastinky
April 13, 2008, 12:32 PM
I hope for more Gaiden arc's. They should fully explain all the characters. Once they get to kenpachi they should on do his arc for the 2 months so we have alot of really great and goodies to read. _engrishgood NOT

ShaunMati1
April 13, 2008, 12:46 PM
Its hard for me to decide between the Gaiden Arcs or the present events. I mean in the Gaiden we are getting backgrounds on alot of ppl every chapter so far and its very fun to read. But before these chapters we had fights much more meaningful then the ones previous in HM with NNoi and Byakuya etc. I mean we could see a potential growth in ichigo and maybe an interference by his hollow or zengetsu, and possible ulquiorra actually needing his sword rather then just 2 hands. And aizen and co vs SS including captains we havent seen fight much yet. Alot was happening and i miss it lol. So its hard to choose, i just hope in the next month or so we have this gaiden arc that kubo can put more in a chapter and really focus on urahara and the hougyoku more.

patedecarne
April 13, 2008, 01:27 PM
Well, then after the Gaiden arc, I believe Kubo should go back to the main storyline, and after this, maybe another gaiden, with different characters; so much gaiden once could mess the main story, that's why I believe Kubo should do the gaiden in parts

Uchihavengance
April 13, 2008, 03:27 PM
we will see the skill of the vizards...

Schabrak
April 13, 2008, 04:28 PM
Or we won't. I still think that Kubo will save at least Shinjis and the other captains powers for the upcoming fight, better the one after that, so that Yamamoto Genryosai will start to stare (holes?) into space.

someguy0830
April 13, 2008, 04:31 PM
I can't wait to see how Yama reacts when more criminals once again save Soul Society. He probably wasn't too happy when ryoka pretty much got a get out of jail free card the first time, then actual criminals appear and do the same.

Grimjaww
April 13, 2008, 05:03 PM
I can't wait to see how Yama reacts when more criminals once again save Soul Society. He probably wasn't too happy when ryoka pretty much got a get out of jail free card the first time, then actual criminals appear and do the same.

Well criminals by the Chamber's standards. I don't think he will be as mad since they were shinigami at one time, but when Ichigo and co. saved them, if he was mad at all is because they were ryoka and were breaking the law of SS.

Schabrak
April 13, 2008, 05:53 PM
Genryusai was quite mad when Ichigo stopped the Soukyoku, the strongest Zanpakotou and stopped the whole ritual with it.^^ I'm sure he could not be angered more than at that time.

Grimjaww
April 13, 2008, 06:42 PM
Genryusai was quite mad when Ichigo stopped the Soukyoku, the strongest Zanpakotou and stopped the whole ritual with it.^^ I'm sure he could not be angered more than at that time.

Losing 6 captains all at almost the same time might get him mad.........

He was pretty pissed with Ukitake and Shunsui when they destroyed the Soukyoku.

patedecarne
April 13, 2008, 06:53 PM
Yes, 6 captains is too much to lose at the same time; I'm wondering why Yammamoto still is the general; The 46 council members seems to be a kind of dictature, and Yammamoto losing 6 captains should be enough reason to put Yammamoto down, unless Yammamoto had served perfectly as a general in the past, maybe some mistakes can be forgotten...

Schabrak
April 13, 2008, 06:58 PM
"He was pretty pissed with Ukitake and Shunsui when they destroyed the Soukyoku" is that a argument against that of mine? can't be or? it was at the same time and belongs to my statement.^^

I can only count up to 4 captains being vaizard and some Lt. and as we have seen from Yamamotos words. Lieutenants can easily replaced. Hyori seems quite desperate without her sword... And Rose is a new captain..., while the other three ranked up in the last 100 years. Merely a time to develop bankai. But we have yet to see, if they have gone from free will or rules.

I highly doubt that there are many people stronger than Yamamoto in the whole Soul Society. There may be some royal guards, but as we have seen in the SS arc. The central 46 were annihilated easily by one man named Aizen.

redcometfm
April 13, 2008, 08:29 PM
I just had an epiphany. Someone here mentioned how they're surprised to see Yamamoto still in power despite what has happened with the Vizard Captains and Urahara. Then I thought of Aizen. He never carried through with killing anyone. You could interpret his expression after stabbing Hinamori as one of regret (or similar emotion for which I do not know the word).
What if his scheme thus far is to become powerful enough to remove Yamamoto? Perhaps he was deeply shocked by what happened to Shinji and Urahara and saw how the brutal justice system and ideals of the Central 46 and Yamamoto (and possibly the king if Aizen harbors blame to him as well) for the monstrous treatment of Shinji & Co. and all before them who have suffered things similar to the Maggot's Nest or worse. And what if he's trying to bridge the gap between Hollow and Shinigami via Hogyouku to prevent such atrocities from happening again? To free SS of possible tyranny? (Its possible that Yamamoto is THAT fucking powerful). And this whole cocky facade was created by his shikai to fool the hollows in following him...the oppression of Yamamoto could also be why Gin and Tousen have joined them (who have also not killed anyone)...And why he spoke to Yamamoto in such a way...And Urahara and co. could be completely oblivious to this...
Main Point: Aizen could be trying to topple Yamamoto/Central 46/King of SS to end supposed tyranny.
Only problem: His plan could throw the off the universal balance involving the flow of spirits
*** OR ***
Counter-argument to above: Completely neutralize & stabilize it through this great hogyouko-induced bridge.
Thoughts???

Kanzen Shinkiro
April 13, 2008, 09:46 PM
I am guessing the Royal Guard is made of 13 captain class shinigami who not only excel as shinigami, but also have very specific special talents also (i.e. an ability exclusive to said shinigami). The only remaining mystery regarding rank within Soul Society from the past is Isshin, and I am willing to guess from what we have seen through Ichigo, that if the son is anything like the father, Isshin may have been either equal to or even stronger than Yamamoto. It might sound crazy, but just look at Ichigo's accomplishments so far that being the only way to even begin to (guess) measure Isshin's power level. I am also betting Isshin may have been a Kenpachi, perhaps the first in line, and became a member of the Royal Guard solely based on his strength which may have been so great, it simply could not be overlooked. At some point, I am guessing Isshin may have lost faith in Soul Society, this being linked to the first appearance of the vizard, and thus left. However I look at it, I always see Isshin being a powerhouse with few equal or even capable of holding their own against him. I would be very pleased to see Isshin back to full power and single handedly killing a couple of vasto lorde or espada after displaying just how great the gap between them and he is.

Dom
April 13, 2008, 09:59 PM
While interesting, I'm not quite convinced that Aizen is putting on a facade. Soul Society strike me as the organization that does the dirty work of maintaining the balance of the spiritual flows. That task is their utmost priority since the disturbance has grave consequences. Shinigami eliminated the Quincy, and have harsh preemptive measures. Old man Yama follows these because he believes in following a justice greater than "personal" justice. The Gotei 13 (with a few exceptions) is willing to dirty their hands in pursuit of greater harmony.

That being said, I don't see Yamamoto being tyrannical. Besides that, he's also top of the totem pole in the Gotei 13. That means that there's an acceptable amount of tyranny allowed within a military organization. Orders are meant to be followed. During the SS arc, he could have persecuted Ichigo and co. as their intrusion into Soul Society was still against their laws. He did let them slide after Aizen's treachery was exposed. Yamamoto is not evil, just committed to his ideals and his duty, perhaps even to a fault.

I also don't see Aizen as anything short of being cruel and manipulative. He stabbed Hinomori without so much as a second thought, dispatched Hitsugaya, as well as Komamura. He also risked Rukia's life twice: once with certain death by ordering her execution via the Soukyoku, and once more when he was uncertain of the outcome with his forceful removal of the Hougyoku. All these show nothing but an utter disregard for all those in his way.
[hr]
Sorry for not including this in my previous post ... but I wonder if the Royal Guard is simply a red herring. What if the king already has a set guard, and recruits from within their own resources. We already know that "retiring" or "withdrawing" from the Gotei 13 is not allowed, and results in detainment. What if Captain Hikafune (not sure of the spelling there) ended up being detained somewhere else? The tower where Rukia was kept was supposed to absorb/suppress reiatsu, so perhaps the captain is being detained there. Now ... what if Urahara helped spring Hikafune, and helped her escape with his untraceable giga, that drained her power until she was a human? And what if she went under a new name, and was actually Ichigo's mother, Masaki? I don't necessarily believe that's the case, but it would be interesting nonetheless.

redcometfm
April 13, 2008, 10:03 PM
Whether Yamamoto is evil or not is not the point, it's Aizen's perspective.

segua
April 13, 2008, 10:04 PM
Old man Yama seemed to personify the Law of SS. So to do away with him, who would control the other captains and their subordinates? More importantly, there might have been severe unrest since 6 captains were lost. There seems to be signs of great loyalty from the lower members of a division towards their division captain.

Then again, there seems to be great respect towards Yama from the other captains.

akatsuki27
April 13, 2008, 11:56 PM
While interesting, I'm not quite convinced that Aizen is putting on a facade. Soul Society strike me as the organization that does the dirty work of maintaining the balance of the spiritual flows. That task is their utmost priority since the disturbance has grave consequences. Shinigami eliminated the Quincy, and have harsh preemptive measures. Old man Yama follows these because he believes in following a justice greater than "personal" justice. The Gotei 13 (with a few exceptions) is willing to dirty their hands in pursuit of greater harmony.

That being said, I don't see Yamamoto being tyrannical. Besides that, he's also top of the totem pole in the Gotei 13. That means that there's an acceptable amount of tyranny allowed within a military organization. Orders are meant to be followed. During the SS arc, he could have persecuted Ichigo and co. as their intrusion into Soul Society was still against their laws. He did let them slide after Aizen's treachery was exposed. Yamamoto is not evil, just committed to his ideals and his duty, perhaps even to a fault.

I also don't see Aizen as anything short of being cruel and manipulative. He stabbed Hinomori without so much as a second thought, dispatched Hitsugaya, as well as Komamura. He also risked Rukia's life twice: once with certain death by ordering her execution via the Soukyoku, and once more when he was uncertain of the outcome with his forceful removal of the Hougyoku. All these show nothing but an utter disregard for all those in his way.
<hr noshade size="1">
Sorry for not including this in my previous post ... but I wonder if the Royal Guard is simply a red herring. What if the king already has a set guard, and recruits from within their own resources. We already know that "retiring" or "withdrawing" from the Gotei 13 is not allowed, and results in detainment. What if Captain Hikafune (not sure of the spelling there) ended up being detained somewhere else? The tower where Rukia was kept was supposed to absorb/suppress reiatsu, so perhaps the captain is being detained there. Now ... what if Urahara helped spring Hikafune, and helped her escape with his untraceable giga, that drained her power until she was a human? And what if she went under a new name, and was actually Ichigo's mother, Masaki? I don't necessarily believe that's the case, but it would be interesting nonetheless.

urahara never said retirement was part of that....a captain would never get to the position of captain if he was deemed a threat to SS...(excluding kurotsuchi, which is now apparent that he became a captain because urahara willed it)..the people incarcerated were not guilty of anything other than having the possibility of committing a crime against SS

urahara was talking about academy students that seemed dangerous, he didnt say captains and squad members were put in there....the point of the maggots nest is that they were detained BEFORE they did something, obviously captains are selected by current captains or through beating the former captains....they would never be allowed to reach that level if they were deemed a threat....you are misunderstanding what was said and adding your own twist to it

Bigfish
April 14, 2008, 12:30 AM
As far as the Vaizard go, with most (if not all of them) being Captains and Lieutenants, I'm left wondering as to the circumstances under which the gained their hollow powers. Either we're looking at a very large threat that requires the Vaizards to under take desperate measures, or they're transformation was unintentional.

Personally, I would predict that the creation of the Hyogoku (or some manipulation of its creation by Aizen) is probably what caused the vaizards to gain their powers. After which, they probably lose control of their hollows and go on a rampage through Soul Society, leading to their imprisonment. Urahara, after sealing the Hyogoku when the damage it can cause becomes apparent, feels a degree of guilt over their imprisonment and probably scheduled executions, and creates his power-draining Gigai that also makes it near impossible for Soul Society to track them, and breaks the Vaizard out of prison, helps them escape to Earth, and is subsequently exiled himelf, likely to act as the guard of the now escaped Vaizard should they endanger the people around them.

After their escape, the vaizard plan to live as normal humans, but discover that the weakening of the Shinigami powers only makes it easier for their hollows to gain control, and if they remain in the gigai they'll just become pure hollows. As such, they develop their method of supressing their hollows to control them.

At this point, if Aizen's master plan wasn't already made known to them during their creation, Aizen likely approaches them to recruit them to his agenda, although whether they agree, disagree, or choose to remain neutral is unclear.

turbo_sc
April 14, 2008, 01:33 AM
Hi, I'm new to the whole Bleach universe and manga in general. From the way this Gaiden arc seems to be set up, I am guessing that the Vaizards might have already started practicing "forbidden" techniques before the start of this arc and the 2nd division was sent out by Central 46 to investigate the Vaizards (to take it further, I'm guessing that Aizen squeals on them). In the meantime, Urahara becomes a captain and indirectly "warns" Hyori about the way soul society treats possible threats by showing her the Maggot's nest. Hiyori then tells the other vaizards about 2nd division's job and the maggot's nest. 2nd division reports back to Central 46 and it is decided that the vaizards are a threat and should be rounded up. Yuroichi, helps out the vaizards by smuggling them out of soul society, but leaves without telling anyone because it had to be done immediately. (Yuroichi ends up being gone for too long and is them decomissioned) Urahara gets left behind to start the R&D with Mayuri. Several years later Isshin moves up the ranks within the Gotei 13 to become 10th division captain. 80 yrs later, after the Gaiden arc, Isshin falls in love with a human and asks Urahara for a favor, a gigai that hides his reiatsu so that he can run away and be with Ichigo's mother (who might actually be a friend of Ishida senior). That get's Urahara kicked out in the process. Unless I am mistaken, there is really nothing in the manga stating that Urahara was exiled from SS at around the same time as the vaizards.

Jadedmariner
April 14, 2008, 02:52 AM
urahara never said retirement was part of that....a captain would never get to the position of captain if he was deemed a threat to SS...(excluding kurotsuchi, which is now apparent that he became a captain because urahara willed it)..the people incarcerated were not guilty of anything other than having the possibility of committing a crime against SS

urahara was talking about academy students that seemed dangerous, he didnt say captains and squad members were put in there....the point of the maggots nest is that they were detained BEFORE they did something, obviously captains are selected by current captains or through beating the former captains....they would never be allowed to reach that level if they were deemed a threat....you are misunderstanding what was said and adding your own twist to it

You seem to either have a different translation or have misinterpreted what Urahara says. To paraphrase Urahara says that in the eyes of Central 46 anyone that leaves the Gotei 13 has already became dangerous to SS so must be imprisoned. Basically your need for individuality, failure to conform, and lack of loyalty prove you to be a danger and therefore they imprison you. His statements are also all made in absolute terms using words such as "all", "everyone", and "anyone".

Dom
April 14, 2008, 03:36 AM
Whether Yamamoto is evil or not is not the point, it's Aizen's perspective.

Point taken; indeed Aizen could have seen it this way, and that perhaps we've not really seen much of Aizen's motivation beyond his speech when he was being transported with that negacion beam.

It was my understanding that the Maggot's nest was to detain any and all elements that were a potential threat to Soul Society. Whether someone has risen to the rank of captain, or were deemed potentially dangerous while they were shinigami cadets would have made no difference. A captain may have a change of philosophy over the course of centuries, which may not gel well with the Gotei 13. The Maggot's Nest wasn't for shinigami academy students; Urahara had used them as an example. In cnet's translation Urahara states "any division members who were announced to have 'withdrawn' from the Gotei 13 were in fact forcibly relocated to this facility".

Of course whether someone could forcibly wrangle a captain class shinigami into the Maggot's Nest without commotion would seem unlikely ... so, I'm not sure how to address that.

someguy0830
April 14, 2008, 04:01 AM
Well, if someone actually did manage to become captain then made themselves a problem, Central 46 would probably just have them executed with the Sokyoku. After all, if the Central 46 wants someone dead, that person better die.

koruma
April 14, 2008, 06:13 AM
Well, if someone actually did manage to become captain then made themselves a problem, Central 46 would probably just have them executed with the Sokyoku. After all, if the Central 46 wants someone dead, that person better die.
Agreed.
It is said in the manga that Sokyoku is used to big executions, mainly captains. Would be really risked to give a light sentence to a captain since they can influence a hole division, and i'm sure that u can't say "Hey mister Jailer, if you need, defeat the captain with your hands", captains are not that easy.

patedecarne
April 14, 2008, 07:06 AM
Even if central 46 has more politics powers then Yammamoto, I believe old Yamma is the most powerful in SS, then shouldn't be Yammamoto himself the one to dictate the laws? The council 46 is responsible by the laws, but these laws only worked because Yamma jii created the Gotei 13; Yammamoto at least should have the same influence as the 6 members..

bokbokchui
April 14, 2008, 08:02 AM
i think people should see the power structure in SS like the USA system, you have the king, the Gotei 13 and the central 46. Like the President, the Supreme Court and the Senate, each has respective power over the other. As to Yama i think he has to act like the way he does in order to control 12 insanely powerful being. Kinda like Byakuya's theory of if the noble doesn't follow the law even if its against his own believe, who else would have follow it!

koruma
April 14, 2008, 08:41 AM
I was thinking now... When will SS's structure be back to normal? I mean, as Aizen killed the Central 46 Yama or the King directly are prolly controlling SS's law.

akatsuki27
April 14, 2008, 09:57 AM
You seem to either have a different translation or have misinterpreted what Urahara says. To paraphrase Urahara says that in the eyes of Central 46 anyone that leaves the Gotei 13 has already became dangerous to SS so must be imprisoned. Basically your need for individuality, failure to conform, and lack of loyalty prove you to be a danger and therefore they imprison you. His statements are also all made in absolute terms using words such as "all", "everyone", and "anyone".

dont paraphrase it, give me the actual quote cause you are the one that seems to be misinterpreting...i have several translations actually, as soon as a new one comes out i read it....binktopia, frankyhouse, etc....and none of those say that when you leave, you have become a danger....they remove you BEFORE you become a danger, that's urahara's whole point

if you have a been a loyal captain for hundreds of years of service, who is to say that you cant retire??? shunsui is one of the oldest captains, so you expect him to be in the know about some of the dealings of SS...why would he say that the former third squad captain was now enjoying his days in the sun if it wasnt true??? also, the part about the royal guard, why would he mention it if it didnt exist??? if a captain couldnt be promoted into the royal guard, why would aizen react the way he did???

urahara is talking about people who have been abruptly removed under the guise of "leave of absence"

someguy0830
April 14, 2008, 10:27 AM
Even if central 46 has more politics powers then Yammamoto, I believe old Yamma is the most powerful in SS, then shouldn't be Yammamoto himself the one to dictate the laws? The council 46 is responsible by the laws, but these laws only worked because Yamma jii created the Gotei 13; Yammamoto at least should have the same influence as the 6 members..Yama created the academy, not the organization as a whole. He's not that badass.

Umbra Wolf
April 14, 2008, 11:26 AM
I guess you can retire. E.g. each member of the Byakuya member who serves as a captain retires someday to give the rank to his heiring Byakuya.
Or does anyone expect the older Byakuyas are to be arrested when they get old?
Also Urahara talks a lot about special "terms" like "leave of absence" or "decommission" and of course "withdrawl" which means nothing more than "transfer to special detention"


>Check here< (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/318/12/)

bokbokchui
April 14, 2008, 11:35 AM
I don't know if anyone realized it already but 5th Division has produced the most Captain out of all the other divisions. Aizen, Tosen, Gin and Sajin they were all under Shinji when he was captain. Well at least Aizen, Tosen and Sajin i m sure was not sure if Gin was, but 5th Division is definitely the division to join if you want to be a captain!! lol

rawskillz
April 14, 2008, 12:20 PM
It was a great chapter
We got info on what the of what 2nd division does and there many purposes that they serve in

and

Were finally getting to know how Mayuri comes into play .......


this Gaiden is building some stamina for the newer chapters to come ..

I totally agree..i cant wait till the next chapter to come out and im glad kibo t aint taking a week off too

Fortisdiablos
April 14, 2008, 02:05 PM
Does anyone think that Tessai used to be Urahara's VC or something along those lines? He's supposedly over 200 years old. It's certainly possible, right? I mean, who the hell is he?

This seems like something someone has probably brought up before, so I apologize if that is he case.

kat_at_heart
April 14, 2008, 02:20 PM
not that it really has anything to do with what is going on at the moment, but does anyone else apart from me wander who the first person to see byakuya's senkei senbonzakura was ?

someguy0830
April 14, 2008, 02:20 PM
Does anyone think that Tessai used to be Urahara's VC or something along those lines? He's supposedly over 200 years old. It's certainly possible, right? I mean, who the hell is he?

This seems like something someone has probably brought up before, so I apologize if that is he case.Hiyori is/was his lieutenant, and it would be unlikely for him to become the lieutenant now.

CheckMate
April 14, 2008, 02:35 PM
Uruhara is much cooler in earth as human than as a taichou. Maybe because the hat and the stick?

Tsukisama
April 14, 2008, 02:44 PM
Well, that's the thing. Given that the gaiden will only last 2-3 months, spending an entire chapter explaining/revealing just 1 or 2 things seems a bit wasteful. I just got the sense that he could've shortened it, so as to leave more room to push things forward--though I agree that expounding on SS's background is WAY better than "humor" or fighting. :p

That's true; spending an entire chapter explaining one or two things is wasteful if what is said in the chapter is frivolous and does not have a great impact on the story. Because Kubo devoted a chapter to explaining the detention process, I believe that it will likely have a huge impact on the coming events.


I'm hoping for more Gaiden arcs myself, but how would he weave it into the story? It's not like there's much left. If he's going to pace the next big arc like a real war, with several big battles, skirmishes, and down periods, then it could be possible, but seeing as all the big players are now in one place I doubt that'll happen.

I would think that Kubo has enough room to insert other gaidens. At the current point (or 110 years in the future), there are several big battles about to begin, but after those battles, there is bound to be room. There is likely going to be an arc inside the King's dimension (assuming Aizen somehow manages to pull off the creation of a King's Key). Plus, there will likely be some down time in the aftermath of the current big battles, with Ichigo and co. arriving back in SS to see what has happened.

If Isshin is somehow related to the Royal Guard, then a nice gaiden or flashback chapter on him and/or the RG would fit nicely into the transition to the current war and the King's dimension arc, in which the RG are bound to be introduced in full.


Yes, 6 captains is too much to lose at the same time; I'm wondering why Yammamoto still is the general; The 46 council members seems to be a kind of dictature, and Yammamoto losing 6 captains should be enough reason to put Yammamoto down, unless Yammamoto had served perfectly as a general in the past, maybe some mistakes can be forgotten...

Losing 4 captains you mean, right? ;)

I doubt that what causes the future vizards to become vizards is anything that would be within Yamamoto's power to prevent. The Central 46 probably would not arbitrarily terminate Yamamoto, the most legendary and powerful shinigami in Gotei 13 at that time, over something that would be beyond his control.


I just had an epiphany. Someone here mentioned how they're surprised to see Yamamoto still in power despite what has happened with the Vizard Captains and Urahara. Then I thought of Aizen. He never carried through with killing anyone. You could interpret his expression after stabbing Hinamori as one of regret (or similar emotion for which I do not know the word).

Aizen has definitely tried to kill people. He tried to kill Hinamori by stabbing her, and she would have died like he planned if Hitsugaya and Unohana did not arrive earlier than he expected. He attempted to kill Hitsugaya. He thought extracting the Hougyoku from Rukia would kill her (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/21/). Aizen has had murderous intent even though no one has yet actually ever died.

Aizen's face after stabbing her looks cold and emotionless (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/169/18/) to me. The way he turns and walks away as she calls his name (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/169/19/), in addition to his harsh words towards her (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/11/), makes me think that he truly did not have any strong feelings for her.


What if his scheme thus far is to become powerful enough to remove Yamamoto? Perhaps he was deeply shocked by what happened to Shinji and Urahara and saw how the brutal justice system and ideals of the Central 46 and Yamamoto (and possibly the king if Aizen harbors blame to him as well) for the monstrous treatment of Shinji & Co. and all before them who have suffered things similar to the Maggot's Nest or worse. And what if he's trying to bridge the gap between Hollow and Shinigami via Hogyouku to prevent such atrocities from happening again? To free SS of possible tyranny? (Its possible that Yamamoto is THAT fucking powerful). And this whole cocky facade was created by his shikai to fool the hollows in following him...the oppression of Yamamoto could also be why Gin and Tousen have joined them (who have also not killed anyone)...And why he spoke to Yamamoto in such a way...And Urahara and co. could be completely oblivious to this...
Main Point: Aizen could be trying to topple Yamamoto/Central 46/King of SS to end supposed tyranny.

Aizen's actions so far have not seemed to be in a crusade for justice. He has stated numerous times that he is doing all of this for power. Although he could be deceiving everyone as you say, what would he stand to gain from pretending to be in it all for power if his goal was to simply end the supposed "tyranny" of the current establishment? Why not just say that then?


Even if central 46 has more politics powers then Yammamoto, I believe old Yamma is the most powerful in SS, then shouldn't be Yammamoto himself the one to dictate the laws? The council 46 is responsible by the laws, but these laws only worked because Yamma jii created the Gotei 13; Yammamoto at least should have the same influence as the 6 members..

The same can be said for most countries that aren't lead by military rule. Although the governance of the state is in the hands of politicians, the true power of the country that enforces the laws is the military, armed forces, various force-wielding agencies, etc. The military could try to overthrow the government, but there are typically measures set in place to prevent such things from happening. I imagine that there is some kind of control that Central 46 had as a safety precaution to prevent Yamamoto from seizing power.

At any rate, Yamamoto is not the type of person who would try to command greater authority than he has. As his statements (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/22/) to Ukitake and Shunsui about justice indicate, Yamamoto firmly believes in following the orders from above without question. I'd say he is the perfect example of a soldier in the eyes of SS.


I was thinking now... When will SS's structure be back to normal? I mean, as Aizen killed the Central 46 Yama or the King directly are prolly controlling SS's law.

Good question. I have been wondering that myself. With the Central 46 dead, presumably Yama has been placed in the position of handling their executive duties, as the King has been stated as being a non-entity.

Perhaps, when all of the threats from Aizen vanish, a new Central 46 will be selected by some process. Since I think it is said that governance of SS is left to the Central 46 by the Spirit King, once he is revealed in a later arc, he will appoint a new governing body.
[hr]

I don't know if anyone realized it already but 5th Division has produced the most Captain out of all the other divisions. Aizen, Tosen, Gin and Sajin they were all under Shinji when he was captain. Well at least Aizen, Tosen and Sajin i m sure was not sure if Gin was, but 5th Division is definitely the division to join if you want to be a captain!! lol

In the databook (Bleach Official Bootleg (http://kay-willow.livejournal.com/211742.html)) in the section about the 5th division, Kubo points this out.


not that it really has anything to do with what is going on at the moment, but does anyone else apart from me wander who the first person to see byakuya's senkei senbonzakura was ?

There is already a thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26424) that discusses this topic. Use that thread for such discussion.

patedecarne
April 14, 2008, 02:53 PM
Losing 4 captains you mean, right? ;)

I doubt that what causes the future vizards to become vizards is anything that would be within Yamamoto's power to prevent. The Central 46 probably would not arbitrarily terminate Yamamoto, the most legendary and powerful shinigami in Gotei 13 at that time, over something that would be beyond his control.




Good question. I have been wondering that myself. With the Central 46 dead, presumably Yama has been placed in the position of handling their executive duties, as the King has been stated as being a non-entity.

Perhaps, when all of the threats from Aizen vanish, a new Central 46 will be selected by some process. Since I think it is said that governance of SS is left to the Central 46 by the Spirit King, once he is revealed in a later arc, he will appoint a new governing body.



Well, I 've already included Yoruichi and Urahara in the process, because if youcome to think carefully, the gap between the vaizards events and the Urahara's ban is at maximum 10 years!



IIRC, in some chapter of the beginning of the arrancar saga, someone stated that the SS was in a hurry to select new members to replace the dead one in council 46, maybe now we already have 46 new members in the central!

Tsukisama
April 14, 2008, 03:01 PM
Well, I 've already included Yoruichi and Urahara in the process, because if youcome to think carefully, the gap between the vaizards events and the Urahara's ban is at maximum 10 years!

Urahara was exiled for something he did independently; so, again Yamamoto could not be seen at fault.

As for Yoruichi, she was not exiled or anything. This most recent chapter has finally explained what happened to her; Yoruichi was decommissioned. Byakuya said that everyone thought she was dead, which would match Urahara's description of losing one's position through decommissioning (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/318/12/) excellently. So, Yamamoto definitely could not be seen at fault for Yoruichi's disappearance either.


IIRC, in some chapter of the beginning of the arrancar saga, someone stated that the SS was in a hurry to select new members to replace the dead one in council 46, maybe now we already have 46 new members in the central!

Interesting. If you have a reference for this, I would enjoy viewing it. :hbunny

patedecarne
April 14, 2008, 03:17 PM
Interesting. If you have a reference for this, I would enjoy viewing it. :hbunny


Yes, I'll try to remember when and if I saw this statement! In the moment it'll be a little difficult to do, (my work is killing me), and if soemone else can remember, please post here!

PS: Hey, Tsuki, look here: I knew that my memory wouldn't fail, hehe
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/13/

still there isn't solid proof that we already have 46 new members in that time, but at least I believe that now, after the HC mundo arc, the new council 46 is settled!

eddy26
April 14, 2008, 06:10 PM
I think it won't be Yama that orders the exile of the Vizards. My theory is that the Royal Guard will be the ones to remove the Vizards from Soul Society following the king's order. I can't imagine watching the other captains fight against the Vizards. Shunsui seems to be a person who wouldn't attack his own lieutenant just because she has a new power. The Royal Guard is made up of powerful captains so they would be able to defeat the Vizards. Hiyori thinks of Hikifune as a mother figure so if Hikifune attacked Hiyori that would explain why Hiyori hates shinigami.
Yoruichi and Urahara are probably going to be the ones that save the Vizards from being executed. Urahara would see that just because they were able to gain hollow powers that doesn't make them a threat to Soul Society. He is about to free Mayuri who obviously doesn't become a threat to Soul Society since he eventually takes over the 12th division. Urahara seems to find the good in people so I could see him helping out the Vizard.
Isshin probably becomes a captain after the Vizards leave so that would explain why Shinji didn't recognize his spiritual pressure. I agree with what people have said before that Isshin ends up meeting Masaki a human and falls in love with her. He asks Urahara for an untraceable gigai and marries Masaki. Ryukken probably has a connection with Masaki so that is why he knows Isshin is a shinigami. The next thing Kubo should do is explain the positions of the rest of the Vizard. Why hasn't Hacchi or Mashiro been shown so far. Aren't they suppose to be shinigami?

Fortisdiablos
April 14, 2008, 06:55 PM
Hiyori is/was his lieutenant, and it would be unlikely for him to become the lieutenant now.

Yes, I guess it's unrealistic. Urahara was exiled soon after the Vaizards, right? Still, who is Tessai, then? He has to be a shinigami. Did he have any significance in SS? Who the hell is he and why is he living in Urahara's shop?

PredakingD78
April 14, 2008, 07:59 PM
Tessai maybe a former member of the Kido subset of the Special Ops division.

someguy0830
April 14, 2008, 08:18 PM
Yes, I guess it's unrealistic. Urahara was exiled soon after the Vaizards, right? Still, who is Tessai, then? He has to be a shinigami. Did he have any significance in SS? Who the hell is he and why is he living in Urahara's shop?We all ask the very same question, for this aproned muscle man is a conundrum indeed. Probably a lower seated officer.

notBowen
April 14, 2008, 08:47 PM
dont paraphrase it, give me the actual quote cause you are the one that seems to be misinterpreting...i have several translations actually, as soon as a new one comes out i read it....binktopia, frankyhouse, etc....and none of those say that when you leave, you have become a danger....they remove you BEFORE you become a danger, that's urahara's whole point

if you have a been a loyal captain for hundreds of years of service, who is to say that you cant retire??? shunsui is one of the oldest captains, so you expect him to be in the know about some of the dealings of SS...why would he say that the former third squad captain was now enjoying his days in the sun if it wasnt true??? also, the part about the royal guard, why would he mention it if it didnt exist??? if a captain couldnt be promoted into the royal guard, why would aizen react the way he did???

urahara is talking about people who have been abruptly removed under the guise of "leave of absence" He said "In truth, there is no such thing as 'withdrawal' from the Gotei 13." Clearly could be interpreted as meaning it's a permanent job and if you try to leave they lock you up, as he goes on to state "actual withdrawal from the Gotei 13, of the division member's own volition, is not an accepted process."

This doesn't imply simply prophylactic moves by Gotei 13 to remove people before they become a problem, clearly implies that they lock up anyone who simply tries to leave as well.

Doombot
April 14, 2008, 09:01 PM
I don't know if anyone realized it already but 5th Division has produced the most Captain out of all the other divisions. Aizen, Tosen, Gin and Sajin they were all under Shinji when he was captain. Well at least Aizen, Tosen and Sajin i m sure was not sure if Gin was, but 5th Division is definitely the division to join if you want to be a captain!! lol

It also has produced the most traitors...

akatsuki27
April 14, 2008, 09:10 PM
"not an accepted process" is not an absolute statement....the royal guard is not part of the gotei 13 and yet there is a captain who was promoted into it....clearly LEAVING the gotei 13

and if you doubt that then let me quote myself:
shunsui is one of the oldest captains, so you expect him to be in the know about some of the dealings of SS...why would he say that the former third squad captain was now enjoying his days in the sun if it wasnt true??? also, the part about the royal guard, why would he mention it if it didnt exist??? if a captain couldnt be promoted into the royal guard, why would aizen react the way he did???

someguyudontknow
April 14, 2008, 10:22 PM
"not an accepted process" is not an absolute statement....the royal guard is not part of the gotei 13 and yet there is a captain who was promoted into it....clearly LEAVING the gotei 13

and if you doubt that then let me quote myself:

yes if you read that part and that part only. You forget what urahara said before that, leaving on your own is not accepted, meaning just one day quit and be like im done with this poo, being offered a higher rank is acceptable.

Jadedmariner
April 14, 2008, 10:25 PM
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but what exactly is the point of not allowing guards to carry their Zanpaktou. It doesn't seem to make any sense when you think about the existence and power of kido within the manga. It seems to only achieve the superficial appearance of safety since there are ways for shinigami to kill or escape without the use of a sword.
[hr]

"not an accepted process" is not an absolute statement....the royal guard is not part of the gotei 13 and yet there is a captain who was promoted into it....clearly LEAVING the gotei 13

and if you doubt that then let me quote myself:

At the time this arc takes place the Royal guard is considered a part of the Gotei 13. It can be noted that this is true by the fact they are referred to as squad 0.

akatsuki27
April 14, 2008, 10:36 PM
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but what exactly is the point of not allowing guards to carry their Zanpaktou. It doesn't seem to make any sense when you think about the existence and power of kido within the manga. It seems to only achieve the superficial appearance of safety since there are ways for shinigami to kill or escape without the use of a sword.
<hr noshade size="1">


At the time this arc takes place the Royal guard is considered a part of the Gotei 13. It can be noted that this is true by the fact they are referred to as squad 0.

gotei 13....there are 13 squads...if you add squad 0 then that makes 14

i dont remember it being gotei 14....either way, how can it be a part of the gotei 13 if they reside in the king's realm???

notBowen
April 14, 2008, 11:36 PM
gotei 13....there are 13 squads...if you add squad 0 then that makes 14

i dont remember it being gotei 14....either way, how can it be a part of the gotei 13 if they reside in the king's realm??? Accepting a promotion is not the same as retiring or leaving by your own volition, which is what Urahara was referring to, this instance of being promoted does not win your argument. Urahara was simply stating the rules of the Gotei 13, obviously exceptions could be made if authority were given by a higher power i.e. no one questioned when the "Central 46" Aizen was posing as changed Rukia's method of execution to that reserved for captains, because they had the authority. No person by their own volition can leave the Gotei 13, this has been clearly stated.

segua
April 15, 2008, 12:02 AM
You know, I'm sure there are other ways out of the Gotei 13 other than running away. That's called AWOL and the punishment should be severe. One is to be decommissioned or maybe honorably discharged.

But for the safety of SS and other realms, I could understand why those people are imprisoned. One reasoning could be that any spiritual powers that are disobedient or unwillingness to be tamed/cooperate are seen as a threat or might even become a possible threat in the future. Hollows are seen as threats though hollows seems to behave more like animals that have succumbed to their natural animal instincts though arrancars and possibly Vaste Lords are different. Also, shinigami that resign might become renegade shinigamis such as the one in that one movie.

So in order for SS to protect itself and other realms, any pluses that shows signs of having the potential to use spiritual energy are to be recruited and retained indefinitely if possible.

akatsuki27
April 15, 2008, 12:09 AM
Accepting a promotion is not the same as retiring or leaving by your own volition, which is what Urahara was referring to, this instance of being promoted does not win your argument. Urahara was simply stating the rules of the Gotei 13, obviously exceptions could be made if authority were given by a higher power i.e. no one questioned when the "Central 46" Aizen was posing as changed Rukia's method of execution to that reserved for captains, because they had the authority. No person by their own volition can leave the Gotei 13, this has been clearly stated.

and because of that line you made my point and i dont have to respond anymore....but i will

- thats simply what i was saying, yesterday someone said that hikifune was jailed along with the former 3rd squad captain because urahara said what he said...my response is that it is unlikely that a long-standing captain couldnt get permission to retire....no where in chapter -107 does it say he was suddenly removed from his position or he suddenly retired...it just says he retired....and this was stated by one of the most senior captains...my point is you cant assume he was jailed just because he is not a part of the gotei 13

- simply put, not being able to leave the gotei 13 is not absolute...if hikifune was able to leave it, which you to seem to agree happened because of her being promoted then why cant the higher ups grant retirement to a long standing captain, especially if his replacement was readily available which rose seemed to be

nawar
April 15, 2008, 02:35 AM
i dont understand the whole hikifune discussion, i mean we get the whole new concept of royal guards mentioned. the 0 devision which seems to be a powerfull division and then we see the maggots nest and everyone thinks that this 0 division doesnt excist anymore.....well i can ee the logic init. but i also see the logic of the maggotsnest being nothing more than the reason for us to meet mayuri.....thats all, hikifune is not detained, she is a captain class shinigami, imagin what would be needed to capture and detain her!!! dont you think that her vice-captain would know if anything like that would've happened??

segua
April 15, 2008, 06:31 AM
Well you guys seem to forget about those pits where SS would lower a shinigami into a pit of hollows but that's for shinigami offenders.

Well, as Urahara stated that for one to be in charge of the Maggot's Lair, you have to be able to use your bare hands or even master the use of bare hands.

Tsukisama
April 15, 2008, 06:35 AM
Hikifune is not in detainment. We know what happened to her. She was promoted to the royal guard. Her situation is nothing like Urahara's description of people being claimed to have "retired" or "withdrawn." Until anything that appears that would suggest otherwise, I think it is safe to take what we have been given at face value and believe that Hikifune has truly been promoted to the royal guard.

So far, the only captain that has a possibility of being in special detainment is the former captain of the 3rd division, as Shunsui claims that he "retired." Since Shunsui did not go into depth about it, it leaves room for Shunsui merely stating the usual cover-up about shinigami "retiring" and really being locked away. It is also possible that this captain really did retire. It is unknown at this point, and the former 3rd captain is probably not going to be a huge factor into the plot; so, this may never be fully cleared up.

The Royal Guard should still be thought of as a separate entity from Gotei 13. Although it is also called Squad 0, it is still outside of the same rules and governance as Gotei 13, and thus it is still a separate entitiy inasmuch as Covert Ops and the Kidou Corps are separate entities from Gotei 13. (They all have connections but are still separate groups.)

patedecarne
April 15, 2008, 07:19 AM
I really doubt we'll see Hikifune at some point in the gaiden, she was just mentioned to introduce Urahara in her former division...

An I'm inclined to think that we won't ever see anything related to RG in the gaiden, except by the statement about Hikifune, because there's no much room left, which will be a shame, because so many people here, including me, believe that Isshin is somehow related to RG;

but I also believe that Kubo will explain Isshin's situations, will be totally out of context something like" I'm a captain class shinigami, but I don't have any origin";

And just now, that kubo is explaining so many things about Bleach, the relashionship between Urahara, Isshin and Ryuuken must be explained in some way...

Xerte
April 15, 2008, 07:49 AM
1)but why then RG didn't interfere during the byakuya / ichigo fight? they would have also interfere during yamamoto vs shunsui/ukitake fight but they wouldn't..
2) aizen know about the existence of RG, then how can he be sure to win? he just said ''well, we'll destroy SS''...then he is sure that he'll be RG and the king or is nonsense...
Gin and Tousen may probably fight RG if they really r going in SS.. maybe hikifune :P

drakend
April 15, 2008, 10:32 AM
I don't know if Hikifune will be used in the gaiden or not but guys let's ask something: what's the point of naming a character if you won't use him/her in the plot? It's possible, but it's quite unlikely imho, especially in a manga which is overcrowded already...
This Hikifune woman is the only named character of the Royal Guards so far so I bet she will be the first Royal Guard we'll see in the plot in the future.
ANyway why did Urahara say he doesn't know who the Vaizards are? It's an obvious lie because one of the vaizards was his vice-captains and all of them were in gotei 13, so it's quite unlikely he doesn't know them. More and more shadows are grouping behind Urahara: it's like he wants to cover the Vaizards. I don't think Urahara is Aizen's ally, but I think he has a longer agenda than we think...
A grey faction would be quite nice to add besides the black and the white one.

Schabrak
April 15, 2008, 10:56 AM
1)but why then RG didn't interfere during the byakuya / ichigo fight? they would have also interfere during yamamoto vs shunsui/ukitake fight but they wouldn't..
Because the only duty they have to attend is to "guard" the King of the Shinigami. Also they are in a special dimension, so they could not just come, even if they wanted. Till the "filler" in the Anime we did not even knew that Aizen needs a key to get there, so that information if quite new.(around 3-4 months XD)


2) aizen know about the existence of RG, then how can he be sure to win? he just said ''well, we'll destroy SS''...then he is sure that he'll be RG and the king or is nonsense...
Gin and Tousen may probably fight RG if they really r going in SS.. maybe hikifune :P
I think that you too get promoted to RG when you "retire" and not only be "promotion". That could be a way for ex-captains to live a peaceful live in the kings dimension without being put in detention/a cave.

Streifen
April 15, 2008, 11:11 AM
Because the only duty they have to attend is to "guard" the King of the Shinigami. Also they are in a special dimension, so they could not just come, even if they wanted. Till the "filler" in the Anime we did not even knew that Aizen needs a key to get there, so that information if quite new.(around 3-4 months XD)

I think that you too get promoted to RG when you "retire" and not only be "promotion". That could be a way for ex-captains to live a peaceful live in the kings dimension without being put in detention/a cave.

wait, are you trying to say that even if youre not a captain or even if you retire you can still be a royalguard?.... i dont think so, royalguard is a kind of a promotion obviously, where i think you have to be in gotei 13 first, then maybe become a captain before you become a royal guard....

ShaunMati1
April 15, 2008, 11:29 AM
I agree with that ^ about being a captain before getting into the royal guard. That and hougyoku are the only things i hope to see in this gaiden. I would love to see at least what exactly the royal guard does and whos in it. i doubt those will be answered since most of the focus will be on urahara. I figure we will get all the info on the RG when/if they interfere in the fight in fake KK town or in Aizen and co defeat the captains and goto SS. < I still believe thats going to happen, i believe that aizen and co defeat the captains and go to SS to only have Isshin, Urahara, Yoruichi and maybe the vaizards waiting for them. It would be bad ass to see them all fight where they once started.

Xerte
April 15, 2008, 11:31 AM
what would attack the king if the only enemies were hollow ? -.-
if RG is a level above captain, that mean that any RG member can beat a captain...
maybe kubo made them too much powerfull for not being main characters...
Yamamoto said that ukitake and shunsui were powerfull,etc...
they were also 1 of the first captain..so why aren't they in RG?...
even yamamoto said that toghetar r nearly invincible, they would be 2 awsome members for RG
so there r so many people stronger then captain lvl? they can't finish a serie saying : "But there were 13 more people stronger than them that could fastly beat espada"...maybe after aizen we r gonna have a SS vs RG?
if yamamoto is evil the king must know that, so RG is maybe involved too..
maybe we'll have a 2nd SS arc but in RG dimension

ShaunMati1
April 15, 2008, 11:42 AM
what would attack the king if the only enemies were hollow ? -.-
if RG is a level above captain, that mean that any RG member can beat a captain...
maybe kubo made them too much powerfull for not being main characters...
Yamamoto said that ukitake and shunsui were powerfull,etc...
they were also 1 of the first captain..so why aren't they in RG?...
even yamamoto said that toghetar r nearly invincible, they would be 2 awsome members for RG
so there r so many people stronger then captain lvl? they can't finish a serie saying : "But there were 13 more people stronger than them that could fastly beat espada"...maybe after aizen we r gonna have a SS vs RG?
if yamamoto is evil the king must know that, so RG is maybe involved too..
maybe we'll have a 2nd SS arc but in RG dimension

Well come on now just because they are one of the oldest and are incredible together doesnt mean they have to be in the RG. I think a captain has to ask to be promoted and that goes through central 46 and if it approves that captain is promoted to the RG since the RG is considered a high achievement. About your sentence i bolded, why would SS wanna lose all of its defence just because they work well together doesnt mean SS wants to lose them. We know how yama feels about gifted shinigamis, if u dont recall before ichigo and crew went to save inoue, yama said that they need ichigo and his power. So thats what gets me thinking a captain must ask to be promoted to the RG, and it has to go through central 46.

jehonleonce
April 15, 2008, 11:56 AM
This might be a bit off topic, but I was just re-watching a few old episodes and came up with a few theories. This might have already been discussed, but I noticed a difference in the captains clothing. Some of their white coats have sleeves and some don't. I'm guessing that the ones with sleeves are the captains that have been there longer and are the stronger ones, maybe on par with Aizen. Yammamoto is definitely the strongest and I think that hitsuyaga has the potential to be as strong (since he has the most powerful ice/water type), but he has a LONG way to go.

I also think that the hokyoko (sp thing that came out of rukia) was what turned shinji and the others into viazards. Aizen explained what it does and I think thats what was used to remove the limits for shinji and the others. Kiskue himself might be one too since he does use his experiments on himself as was shown with ichigo's bankai training. Kiskue developed it and achieved bankai in three days. I don't think its too far fetched to conclude that he might be a vaizard.

However whats interesting is that kiskue said that Ichigo's has more potential than him and that was kinda proved by ichigo achieving bankai sooner than kiskue and his incredible pace of development. Also the hokyko was not used in ichigo's vaizard/shinigami transformation. I think that ichigo is what Aizen wants to be. He is the completed experiment of removing the limits on shinigami and hollow powers. I think Ichigo is something different from the other vizards which explains everyone's disbelief in his abilities, including shinji and kiskue and the shinagami. The only one who does not realize what ichigo is, is Aizen which makes for interesting irony in the story.

Thats just my two cents, want to know what yall think. :D

Xerte
April 15, 2008, 12:35 PM
Kiskue = kisuke right...?

Urahara achivied bankai in 3 days.in the gaiden part he is captain, so he already have it and that "achivie bankai in 3 days = become vaizard" theory is destroyed ( imo ) because hougyaku has yet to be created

Streifen
April 15, 2008, 12:41 PM
ichigo definitely has the most potential in the series since he is the protagonist. i also think that ichigo is the first and probably the only one to go through the process that urahara used on him, thus he is the only one to achieve vizard powers through that process making him different from the other vizards.. i remember ulq also stated during his first meeting with ichigo that he is really not a threat for now, but what should be reckoned is his extreme potential, maybe thats why aizen has his eyes on him.... they even put into consideration that ichigo would join them....

jehonleonce
April 15, 2008, 12:45 PM
Kiskue = kisuke right...?

Urahara achivied bankai in 3 days.in the gaiden part he is captain, so he already have it and that "achivie bankai in 3 days = become vaizard" theory is destroyed ( imo ) because hougyaku has yet to be created

Yes Kiskue = kisuke, forgive my spelling. And it is a fact that he achieved it in three days. Yourichi said it herself. And I never said that because he achieved bankai he is a vaizard. Kisuke developed that method of achieving bankai and before ichigo used it, Kisuke was the only other person who had used it.

My point was that this showed that kisuke uses his experiments on himself and therefore it would not be too far fetched to assume that he could have used hougyaku on himself when he created it. Just like he did with the soul slayer manifestation doll. But I guess we will just have to wait and see how this plays out with these new chapters. But I wouldn't be too surprised.

gikongan
April 15, 2008, 01:12 PM
Houkgyoku wasn't never used - that Aizen said on the Soykokus' hill. And also said when he was ,,developing" Wondervice, that even Urahara Kisuke has no idea how powerful Houkgyoku could be( he hasn't known his potential or smoething like this). Moreover Aizen also said, that a creature which has mixed powers of shinigami and hollow can exist for ages. But he didn't said that it exists for real. Maybe Shinji and CO. used Houkgyoku without Uraharas permission or even notice. Or maybe he noticed this and he ruled to distory it. That's my opinion. And what about Mayuri - I just want to see what will happen:)

jocouslie
April 15, 2008, 01:28 PM
actually what i thought about isshin is that he's only a substitute shinigami just like his son. anyway 4 my prediction, maybe urahara knew about mayuri's potential abilities that's why he's somewhat wanted to work with him. maybe they'll be working about the hogyouku , but mayuri doesn't know it yet. thus the complete overhaul of the main office of the 12th division.

Megaman84
April 15, 2008, 02:21 PM
I think with regards to the Gaiden arc it is unlikely we will see anything to do with the Royal Guard. The primary focus of the arc is obviously Urahara's establishment as a captain. IMO the arc is leading towards formation of the science division, however, the thing that makes me think is that if Urahara sprung Kurotsuchi Mayuri from the maggots nest it would suggest that it was for his abilities as a) a shinigami and b) as a scientist. The hougyoku hasn't been made yet, so is it a possibility that Mayuri has some involvement in its creation?

patedecarne
April 15, 2008, 02:33 PM
Well, that could be the case just if Hougyoku was used in this incident; but Hougyoku was sealed without being used once;

In other hand, I believe Mayuri has a important role in the Vaizards incident, as we seen he's a important piece in the puzzle of Urahara, what lead me to think that in that moment, there isn't any jailer in the maggot's, because Urahara is breaking some important laws in SS, then it's better to bring back mayuri before anyone notices he's missing...

drakend
April 15, 2008, 02:47 PM
Well, that could be the case just if Hougyoku was used in this incident; but Hougyoku was sealed without being used once;

Has it been stated in the manga that the hogyouku wasn't even used once? I remember it was stated it was sealed nearly immediately, but this doesn't exclude it was used once.

Xerte
April 15, 2008, 02:52 PM
how would mayuri helps kisuke in creating such a thing? right now he is just a prisonier and is far away from the level of experimenting skill he has in HC arc...
maybe kisuke just need something from mayuri,not his knowledge
urahara is doing this experiment without anyone knowing it(maybe shinji&aizen know that),maybe SS will get mad when they'll know about hougyaku, so urahara will put it into rukia to keep it away from SS, but aizen will get it as we all know

but if this theory is right, vaizard's past isnt explained, so it's not totally correct

xmikeyxlikesitx
April 15, 2008, 03:11 PM
It was never said that the Hougyoku was never used, rather, it was stated that Urahara himself had never used it.

Aizen couldn't have used it because he was surprised at what it looked like, so someone (one of the Vizard?) used it and Urahara took it and fled.

Megaman84
April 15, 2008, 03:17 PM
Has it been outrightly stated in the manga it hasn't been used, or has it just not been mentioned leaving room for theories?

segua
April 15, 2008, 04:11 PM
I thought it was explicitly said that the hougyoku was immediately sealed away by Urahara. And from what happened, Urahara seemed to have took it with him. I wonder if that power down gigai he created could be connected to Urahara's attempt at trying to hide the hougyoku because that's the type of gigai he gave to Rukia. And maybe, the hougyoku embedded itself into Rukia without Rukia knowing. Just speculations.

jehonleonce
April 15, 2008, 04:13 PM
Has it been outrightly stated in the manga it hasn't been used, or has it just not been mentioned leaving room for theories?

I just watched the anime and it does not say anywhere that it was never used. It might be different in the manga, but I doubt it. What the anime said (ep 61) was that Kisuke soon realized how dangerous it was so he tried to destroy it but couldn't. So the only other way to get rid of it was to imbed it in a soul. It also never said that kisuke never used it. There seems to be a huge time gap between him trying to destroy it and him finally sealing it in Rukia, so in my opinion its still up in the air as far as theories go.

Leecher
April 15, 2008, 04:17 PM
Does anyone have a feeling that Ichigo's dad (Isshin is it?) is going to show up somewhere in this arc... or maybe his mother? or maybe both?

AngryChubbs
April 15, 2008, 04:40 PM
I just watched the anime and it does not say anywhere that it was never used. It might be different in the manga, but I doubt it. What the anime said (ep 61) was that Kisuke soon realized how dangerous it was so he tried to destroy it but couldn't. So the only other way to get rid of it was to imbed it in a soul. It also never said that kisuke never used it. There seems to be a huge time gap between him trying to destroy it and him finally sealing it in Rukia, so in my opinion its still up in the air as far as theories go.

you cant quote the anime. things are changed up all the time.

jehonleonce
April 15, 2008, 04:57 PM
you cant quote the anime. things are changed up all the time.

Ok, fair enough. Check chapter 175 of the manga. It agrees with the anime and my previous post.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/13/

Saifi
April 15, 2008, 04:59 PM
ummm... just a thought occured .

what if the empty spots are retaken by the vaziards that occupied them as captains before

shinji takes aizens at 5th

rose takes gin's at 3rd

and kensei for tousin.

and while we are at it maybe komamura will die somehow protecting yama ji in the battle and love can get his spot back as well .

that would make the new gotei 13 being.

1) Yama ji

2) Soi fong

3) Rose

4) Unohana

5) Shinji

6)Byakuya

7) Love

8) Shinsui

9) Hisagi kensai (ya i got name mixed up)

10) Hitsuyaga

11) Zaraki

12) mayuri

13) Ukitake.

-------------------------
i doint think urahara and yoroichi need to take back their places .

xmikeyxlikesitx
April 15, 2008, 05:23 PM
To the above post: by that logic, Kensei would be Captain of the 9th Division again, not Hisagi

Back to the Urahara discussion:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/16/

could the gigai that turns shinigami into normal humans be the one Isshin is in?

it would explain why his shinigami powers are "coming back"
and also why Soul Society doesn't really seem to know that he exists

maybe Isshin was the original person Urahara intended to keep the Hougyoku with...

segua
April 15, 2008, 05:24 PM
That could be possible because Isshin seems to be incredibly strong and it seems that Urahara or Isshin was hiding.

Grimjaww
April 15, 2008, 06:06 PM
That could be possible because Isshin seems to be incredibly strong and it seems that Urahara or Isshin was hiding.

Yes but Isshin is not as naive or dumb like Rukia, so he would notice if it was in his gigai.

AngryChubbs
April 15, 2008, 06:18 PM
Ok, fair enough. Check chapter 175 of the manga. It agrees with the anime and my previous post.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/13/

check out this page.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/14/
aizen clearly says it was probably developed and immediatly sealed, and from that, was never released.

segua
April 15, 2008, 06:26 PM
But what if Isshin did help out Urahara but the thing is, what if Isshin's powers were starting to come back and the best choice would have been the clueless Rukia. Dunno why Urahara chose Rukia.

Streifen
April 15, 2008, 06:33 PM
maybe because she is the one assigned to the human world which is far from soul society... and she is the only one who came to urahara first for help... i think it wouldve also happened to renji if he was in rukias place....

jehonleonce
April 15, 2008, 07:12 PM
check out this page.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/14/
aizen clearly says it was probably developed and immediatly sealed, and from that, was never released.

Aizen is clearly talking about the fact that since the hougyoku was sealed no one has used it, and it has never been released until now. Therefore he makes the point that not even Kisuke would know what to expect when it comes to it regaining its power (timewise). That says nothing about whether or not it was used prior to it being sealed.

segua
April 15, 2008, 11:34 PM
I'm sure that the hougyoku is somehow connected to maybe trying to save the other Shinigami who maybe turned Vizard. Yet maybe there is another secret to the hougyoku that Urahara foresaw the possibility of that and tried to destroy it. Unable to do so, he sealed it by maybe trying to mask it by creating it into the depowering gigai. So what if the kougyoku also could turn shinigamis and hollows into pluses? Not only that but it also possess the power to even threaten the King of SS.

On another possibility, Isshin is really the King of SS and he fell in love with Ichigo's mother. So in order to become human, Isshin asked to use Urahara's gigai to become human.

stopie11
April 16, 2008, 03:02 AM
check out this page.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/14/
aizen clearly says it was probably developed and immediatly sealed, and from that, was never released.

If you read that translation carefully Aizen is assuming things. He does not know them 100% certain. So there's still room for speculation.

however translations are not always 100% correct so who knows ;)

MooMoo
April 16, 2008, 03:54 AM
To the person who said what could Mayuri possibly do in his current(gaiden) state. Has it occured to anyone WHY Mayuri is the only one locked up? They're all potentially very dangerous to SS, yet they have freedom, so I am assuming they have unique abilities or spiritually very strong only mentally unstable. So what would warrant someone to be locked up when nobody else was?

I can only imagine it's some crazy mega unique ability, or simply because of his intellect, and if left to his own devices, would be able to escape without trouble.

segua
April 16, 2008, 04:12 AM
So far, I'm clueless as to why Mayuri is locked up. We do know that the guy is insensitive and a jerk towards other. Maybe Mayuri lacks the necessary respect for other spiritual creatures that got him landed in the Maggot's Lair.

genkizen
April 16, 2008, 06:31 AM
maybe because she is the one assigned to the human world which is far from soul society... and she is the only one who came to urahara first for help... i think it wouldve also happened to renji if he was in rukias place....

All shinigami (or atleast most of them) are assigned to protect one or more parts of the human world from hollows. That is there basic job description.

MooMoo
April 16, 2008, 06:33 AM
I'd think it'd be more ironic/fitting if Mayuri's current personality is due to his abuse/isolation from people.

Xerte
April 16, 2008, 07:20 AM
Rukia didn't know she had hougyakou inside, we didn't see her yet in the flashback...
May rukia be an urahara creation just to hide it? why didn't she know she had hougyaku into her??
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/14/
aizen refer to rukia as a place, not a person, maybe he know what rukia really is because he knew about hougyakou and kisuke's problem to hide it..

patedecarne
April 16, 2008, 07:28 AM
The fact Mayuri is in an isolated area could mean that he is a threat to the others prisoners because he's even locked in the chains; all the others prisoners have some kind of freedom in the maggots nest, but not mayuri;

and if he's in the MN, this means that he still hasn't do anything bad, but cannot be with other prisoners, and this lead me to think that Mayuri is a threat himself to everyone who is close him;

And Urahara is releasing him...
good things won't happen...

The GodMonster
April 16, 2008, 08:08 AM
In the fight with Grimmjow Ichigo became more powerful. How's that. And another thing in the manga is said that Zangestsu and Hollow Ichigo are like coin. If Zangestsu is more powerful he talk to Ichigo and Ichigo can ask him for more power. And in the the other side if the hallow is stonger Ichigo take the his power. I'm wondering for some time if ichigo can take maximum power of both of them at same time and what will happen. But bad again is that Ichigo can't is his own reastsu because his body can't contain it. Maybe in the fight Ichigo unconsiously learn to handle more of his power. I whant to see Ichigo learning kendo and the way Urahara stop the bih man with bare hands.
My prediction for next chapter is somehow related to the huogyoku and At the second fight with Ulqiora we will see Ichigo firing Cero, and learning the name of his Inner Hallow.;)

seth.vicious
April 16, 2008, 09:22 AM
I whant to see Ichigo learning kendo

I think kendo was just grabbing the sword with two hands.But yeah if ichigo can start firing ceros like Hirako woof !! :blink:D

Streifen
April 16, 2008, 09:37 AM
All shinigami (or atleast most of them) are assigned to protect one or more parts of the human world from hollows. That is there basic job description.

yeah, but rukia is the only shinigami who got assigned in K-TOwn where urahara also lives...

gikongan
April 16, 2008, 10:08 AM
Eh, I've got an idea - what if it was Urahara, who sent the first hollow( When rukia gave Ichigo her power)?Maybe it was planned - Rukia won't keep with this one, so she will need help. That's only a theory. Maybe wrong. But that's Bleach - everything can take place:)

kat_at_heart
April 16, 2008, 01:38 PM
^ i dont think urahara is that malevolent to do somthing like that

segua
April 16, 2008, 01:55 PM
I wonder if Urahara purposely set things in motion to deal with Aizen. In order to fix his past mistakes or resolve some past issue in SS, Urahara lured Aizen by using Rukia as the bait with the hougyoku. I'm sure Urahara gambled his chances but it seems things might be looking good. So the true mastermind might be this whole thing actually might be Urahara. Seems like the type that won't do anything unless there's something to it.

Also, the reason why Urahara chose Mayuri might be because there were some experiments that Urahara couldn't possibly conduct because of his nature. Or even, Urahara needed some
of a similar intellect to help him with some things and the only one capable was Mayuri.

patedecarne
April 16, 2008, 02:22 PM
I wonder if Urahara purposely set things in motion to deal with Aizen. In order to fix his past mistakes or resolve some past issue in SS, Urahara lured Aizen by using Rukia as the bait with the hougyoku. I'm sure Urahara gambled his chances but it seems things might be looking good. So the true mastermind might be this whole thing actually might be Urahara. Seems like the type that won't do anything unless there's something to it.

Also, the reason why Urahara chose Mayuri might be because there were some experiments that Urahara couldn't possibly conduct because of his nature. Or even, Urahara needed some
of a similar intellect to help him with some things and the only one capable was Mayuri.

I've thinking in that Theory too, but I believe it could be true only if Urahara knew about Aizen's since the beginning; And could very plausible, if you think about it: knowing about the intentions, Urahara settled a whole scenario just to prevent Aizen to obtain Hougyoku, something like Itachi did to Sasuke;

but somehow, Aizen found out about Hougyoku in rukia's gigai and got Urahara by surprise; But then, Urahara has another plan in his mind, and seen like the things are going on, Urahara can be the mentor of all of this

hopefully, in the gaiden kubo will show us whether Urahara knew or not..

Donnie_D
April 16, 2008, 05:23 PM
I doubt Urahara is manipulating Aizen-- there's too much at stake here, not to mention the fact that nobody can really predict EXACTLY what Aizen (and everyone else) is going to do... not even Urahara (I should probably mention that he's one of my favorite characters)

Sa-sori
April 16, 2008, 06:02 PM
I want to see Ulqy and Ichigo fight not some lame Gaiden

LEONORO
April 16, 2008, 06:27 PM
well this is a bit off topic but can some answer me

what is Sado (better known as Chad)?? I know Ichigo is a hollow and Ishida is a Quincy but I still haven't found out what chad..was hes power call

so can someone help.

xxyorosxx
April 16, 2008, 07:47 PM
well this is a bit off topic but can some answer me

what is Sado (better known as Chad)?? I know Ichigo is a hollow and Ishida is a Quincy but I still haven't found out what chad..was hes power call

so can someone help.


Probably a hollow-like power. Orihime has a shinigami-like power, Hacchi saied early in manga that her hair pins are a diferent zanpakutou manifestation, in the future maybe we can see a shikai or bankai form for shun shun rikka. Chad's power acts more like the hollow power, Nnoitra when talking with his fraccion made a similar move with his fingers (moving the sand), like Chad made before entering Las Noches, and like his preparation for La Muerte. Plus, the caracteristics of his two transformed arms are similar with the hollows skins... Chad, Inoue, Ishida and Ichigo are humans, Ishida and Ichigo powers are commum because there are other people who share the same kind of powers, because this they have a identity, quincy and shinigami. On the other side, Inoue and Chad manifestated diferent kinds of power, never seen before, because this they don't have a group name, but they powers can be camparated with the other groups powers (shinigami-like, hollow-like)...

Bigfish
April 16, 2008, 10:25 PM
Speculation on my part, but I'm fairly sure Chad's right arm is his Grandfather's soul. After dying in Mexico, he came back as a Hollow, and doing what Hollows do, probably planned on eating Sado. However, for whatever reason he didn't, and instead fused himself on to Chad to act as his protector. Over the course of the series, as Chad uses his powers he gets more and more experience utilizing his powers like a Hollow would, and so when he enters Hueco Mundo, his own soul begins to gradually transform in to a Hollow, first manifesting with his left arm. In the future, I would imagine we'll see Chad get his own mask and a full body suit, probably recembling a Luchadore, after he has an inner conflit with his hollow self much like Ichigo had with his Vaizard training. It wouldn't surprise me if he actually does this with the Vaizards themselves.

segua
April 17, 2008, 12:56 AM
well this is a bit off topic but can some answer me

what is Sado (better known as Chad)?? I know Ichigo is a hollow and Ishida is a Quincy but I still haven't found out what chad..was hes power call

so can someone help.


Luchador hollow-based powers?

Looking back at the picture on Bleach Chapter 317, page 1 and 2, this is what I gathered:

--------------------------------Yamato, 1st Division Captain-----------------------------

Youichi, 2nd Division Captain---------------------------------------Rose, 3rd Division Captain

Unohana, 4th Division Captain------------------------------------Shinji, 5th Division Captain

??? Kuchiki, 6th Division Captain----------------------------------Love Aigawa, 7th Division Captain

Shunsui, 8th Division Captain--------------------------------------Kensei, 9th Division Captain

Dead, 10th Division Captain---------------------------------------Kenpachi, 11th Division Captain

Urahara, 12th Division Captain------------------------------------Ukitake, 13th Division Captain

It seems that four captains, at the very least, became Vizards. Two Vizards were former Vice Captains. Lisa and Hiyori. I wonder if Hachigen was Unohana's VC. Mashiro might have been the 10th Division Captain. Dunno why but it seems that she was the one who subdued her hollow the quickest which makes me believe that she's incredibly strong. Not only that but the current 10th Divison Captain is Hitsugaya who is young.

MooMoo
April 17, 2008, 02:36 AM
I think Inoue and Chad is Kubo trying to illustrate to us readers how powers can manifest in humans. That either they go towards shinigami or hollow powers.

Which is like a big part of bleach, the whole "other side of the coin" is hollow or a shinigami. And how he opened it up and said we could merge them ie. arrancar and vaizards.

Also, what happened to hell? x]

We saw it once. That was it. Can't their be agents of hell too? x]

Tsukisama
April 17, 2008, 03:01 AM
well this is a bit off topic but can some answer me

what is Sado (better known as Chad)?? I know Ichigo is a hollow and Ishida is a Quincy but I still haven't found out what chad..was hes power call

so can someone help.

Chad is a human with hollow-based powers.


Luchador hollow-based powers?

Looking back at the picture on Bleach Chapter 317, page 1 and 2, this is what I gathered:

--------------------------------Yamato, 1st Division Captain-----------------------------

Youichi, 2nd Division Captain---------------------------------------Rose, 3rd Division Captain

Unohana, 4th Division Captain------------------------------------Shinji, 5th Division Captain

??? Kuchiki, 6th Division Captain----------------------------------Love Aigawa, 7th Division Captain

Shunsui, 8th Division Captain--------------------------------------Kensei, 9th Division Captain

Dead, 10th Division Captain---------------------------------------Kenpachi, 11th Division Captain

Urahara, 12th Division Captain------------------------------------Ukitake, 13th Division Captain

It seems that four captains, at the very least, became Vizards. Two Vizards were former Vice Captains. Lisa and Hiyori. I wonder if Hachigen was Unohana's VC. Mashiro might have been the 10th Division Captain. Dunno why but it seems that she was the one who subdued her hollow the quickest which makes me believe that she's incredibly strong. Not only that but the current 10th Divison Captain is Hitsugaya who is young.

I doubt that Mashiro is the 10th division captain. The 10th division captain is thought to be dead at this point, and I imagine that Mashiro will become a vizard with the others, meaning that she must still be active in SS. Hitsugaya was considered a rare child genius. I doubt then that the 10th division has a history of child captains.

Some people think that Hacchi might be related to the Kidou Corps, because the symbol on his hair in the flashback picture looks similar to the symbol of the Kidou Corps.


I think Inoue and Chad is Kubo trying to illustrate to us readers how powers can manifest in humans. That either they go towards shinigami or hollow powers.

Which is like a big part of bleach, the whole "other side of the coin" is hollow or a shinigami. And how he opened it up and said we could merge them ie. arrancar and vaizards.

Also, what happened to hell? x]

We saw it once. That was it. Can't their be agents of hell too? x]

Nice appraisal of the Orihime and Chad characters.

For further discussion of Chad and Orihime's powers, go here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1680).

For discussion of your theories about the mysterious dimension known as "Hell," go here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29492).

Please keep this thread on the topic of chapter -106 and predictions for -105.

segua
April 17, 2008, 04:55 AM
I was reading back on Blleach Chapter 188, page 9, Isshin made a very interesting note. Vizards are shinigamis that used forbidden techniques to acquire hollow powers. Why was there a need to become Vizards? The only thing that I could think up would be to protect SS from the Vaste Lords. But in doing so, they became shunned and hunted down.

Another interesting thing was that Shinji didn't recognized Isshin's reiatsu. I assume that Isshin might have appeared later in history.

It's seems that Urahara was really kicked out for making that gigai out of the special material that would make a shinigami human. I also wonder if making the hougyoku and the gigai were part of Urahara's plans to help those that became Vizards.

It seems that on Bleach Chapter 217 page 13, the Viazards know of the hougyoku, Aizen and arrancars. And from Aizen said durin the SS arc, he was playing everyone for a fool. So I suppose that the only ones who saw through that guise were the ones were went Viazards and possibly Urahara and a few others.

Tsukisama
April 17, 2008, 05:06 AM
I was reading back on Blleach Chapter 188, page 9, Isshin made a very interesting note. Vizards are shinigamis that used forbidden techniques to acquire hollow powers. Why was there a need to become Vizards? The only thing that I could think up would be to protect SS from the Vaste Lords. But in doing so, they became shunned and hunted down.

It's anyone's guess at this point. It could have been that the vizards did not seek to become vizards at all and that they were just labeled criminals for something beyond their control.


Another interesting thing was that Shinji didn't recognized Isshin's reiatsu. I assume that Isshin might have appeared later in history.

Isshin could have come after Shinji, before Shinji, or existed as a Shinigami concurrently with Shnji in a position about which Shinji would no knowledge, which would be possible if Isshin were in the royal guard.


It's seems that Urahara was really kicked out for making that gigai out of the special material that would make a shinigami human. I also wonder if making the hougyoku and the gigai were part of Urahara's plans to help those that became Vizards.

Possible.

patedecarne
April 17, 2008, 06:55 AM
If Shinji and co. used forbbiden techniques and become vaizards or if was just an accident, we'll finally know in the next chapters, but IMO, I don't believe they gained such powers for their own will; it's just I think some of them, mainly Hacchi, wouldn't search for such powers...

And Urahara is the key to it all, the second option could be more plausible, and then, the SS labeled criminals

fistsofrage
April 17, 2008, 11:50 AM
The past I really want to know about is Gin's. I can understand why Aizen chose Tousen but apart from his relationship to ran-san Gin's part in all this is a mystery. We've never seen his bankai and his true strength and objective are unknown. He doesn't seem to trust Aizen too much and it would be really nice if he somehow outsmarted Aizen and enacted his own plan once they got into the King's area. I think Gin is way more than just a lapdog he's too powerful to be kept in check unlike the arrancar. I'm also interested in what Aizen & co. managed to keep all the arrancar in check with being vaizards themselves and also in what the true purpose of the hyogyoko is in their plan to coup d'etat the King.

patedecarne
April 17, 2008, 12:01 PM
The past I really want to know about is Gin's. I can understand why Aizen chose Tousen but apart from his relationship to ran-san Gin's part in all this is a mystery. We've never seen his bankai and his true strength and objective are unknown. He doesn't seem to trust Aizen too much and it would be really nice if he somehow outsmarted Aizen and enacted his own plan once they got into the King's area. I think Gin is way more than just a lapdog and it was definitely amazing how he took on Hitsugaya's bankai with a shikai alone. It's like he was saying I don't need bankai to defeat you. I'm also interested in what Aizen & co. managed to keep all the arrancar in check with being vaizards themselves and also in what the true purpose of the hyogyoko is in their plan to coup d'etat the King.


Well, I believe you can check out the new spoilers, you'll find more about gin and the answers to this question!

Curufinwe
April 17, 2008, 01:41 PM
maybe the true master mind is gin in fact lol.

think about it i alway make joke about how aizen like to look cool and powerfull.

he dont show much respect to aizen.

at least he stronger them touzen for sure

or a spy of SS

he never try to kill except once

and he try to make some espada fight invader

segua
April 17, 2008, 01:59 PM
I recall that Aizen thinks of nobody else but Gin as his Vice Captain.

TheChosenOne
April 17, 2008, 02:37 PM
maybe the true master mind is gin in fact lol.

think about it i alway make joke about how aizen like to look cool and powerfull.

he dont show much respect to aizen.

I don't know about him disrespecting Aizen, nothin has been shown to imply that, they look to having a mutual relationship. Gin didnt give a second thought about killing rukia when aizen told him to, and aizen apparently cates for gin since he always believed that gin was his right hand man. :)

hyn_pride93
April 17, 2008, 05:03 PM
I don't know about him disrespecting Aizen, nothin has been shown to imply that, they look to having a mutual relationship. Gin didnt give a second thought about killing rukia when aizen told him to, and aizen apparently cates for gin since he always believed that gin was his right hand man. :)

well, theres gotta be something really cool about Gin that we all will end up seeing. I wouldnt be surprised if he was truly the master mind behind everything. come on, theres no shock there. its happened in a crud load of other stories.

Gin is one of the only "bad" guys that i truly like. him, Grimm, Halibel, Stark, and dats about it...:D

Streifen
April 17, 2008, 07:00 PM
gin is pretty much like soujiro seta in kenshin... just look at their facial expressions... they just smile, but you know that there is something deadly behind those smiles....

segua
April 17, 2008, 07:52 PM
It would be such a twist if Gin was a good guy. I wonder if Gin has some kind of relationship with Mastumoto? Friends or lovers?

GPZrag
April 17, 2008, 08:41 PM
It would be such a twist if Gin was a good guy. I wonder if Gin has some kind of relationship with Mastumoto? Friends or lovers?
nahh... i don't like when PERFECTLY BAD ASSES GUYS... turn out to be good... for the sake's of the plot -_-'

gigantor21
April 17, 2008, 08:48 PM
^ Well, Gin is still a mystery. We don't know why he follows Aizen, or why Aizen trusts him more than anyone else. I agree with you in spite of that, but it's still a possibility--which is more than I can say for Aizen actually being good. THAT would just be stupid. :p

Streifen
April 17, 2008, 09:15 PM
if ever gin turns out to be a good guy, i think he will wouldnt be that kind of "GOOD" guy.... maybe he'll just do something to lessen some of aizens plans but will end up dying in the end... knowing that he has some sort of a relationship with rangiku, it could be possible....

UchihaMadara
April 17, 2008, 09:55 PM
Gin seems to be the Itachi of bleach.

Ive also been thinking about what they have been showing us in the gaiden lately mostly about the prison. Makes me wonder if through whatever reason the Vaizard were created, if Urahara didnt help them escape to the real world in order to escape from the prison. Since they said the prison was for people who were deemed dangerous but hadnt done anything wrong, and that would fit the bill of Captains who gained the power of hollows.

segua
April 18, 2008, 01:39 AM
Remember how Kaien turned into a hollow? A hollow invaded him and basically took over yet for a brief moment, Kaien's consciousness took over again of the body. I wonder if the Vizards let themselves get taken over by hollows. I also wonder how many shinigami's went down that path but weren't strong enough to subdue their hollow sides?

Streifen
April 18, 2008, 01:45 AM
i think he didnt actually turned into a hollow, as far as i know it was a hollows skill or spell...

eliteshaman
April 21, 2008, 01:19 AM
Yeah pretty sure Kaien was being controled by the hollow he didn't turn into one

hyn_pride93
April 22, 2008, 07:43 PM
yup yup. he was being controlled. he even thanked Rukia for killing him because he didnt want to be forced to kill anymore and didnt want to around anymore knowing that his wife was dead

kunai-knight
April 23, 2008, 06:48 PM
My thoughts on this gaiden that i posted on another forum somewhere...


I think that the big revelation in this gaiden will be that some of the espadas are'nt pure hollows as we initially thought. I think this gaiden will show that some of them were once shinigamis who happened to loose themselves during the vizardization process and were transformed into hollows.

I think in particularly, Ulquiorra might have been one of those that lost his shinigami side. I think there's a good reason why Aizen considers him to be his most loyal and trustworthy espada and it just might be that. Of course i'm not 100% certain of the facts, but things seem to currently point that way.

hyn_pride93
April 23, 2008, 07:50 PM
Ulquiorra losing himself in the vizardization process does seem probable but then wouldnt that mean that he would insanely strong and not listen anyone but his own thoughts and ideas...? im not saying that all shinigamis hollows act the same way that his does but they would probably be uncontrollable.

most likely the top three esapada are not perfect hollows, aka Vast Lords. but they sure are the pinicle of power right now. think about it, Nel was the third and she was knocked out in a flash. so what if she was caught off guard. wouldnt you be able to endure a small attack like that esp. if it came from the eighth espada. bleh... the top three werent always the top. there were others before but only gained more power because of a possible boost in power from Aizen.