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View Full Version : Chapter Bleach -105 Discussions



bax
April 18, 2008, 01:59 AM
Binktopia just released chapter -105 here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29551).

Go ahead and discuss the chapter and predict the next here :)

Koen
April 18, 2008, 02:28 AM
great chapter

I like the suspense in this flashback. Nice to see how gin and aizen met each other. Strange to see a different byakuya. Can't wait for next chapter, I really wanna know more

zzlow
April 18, 2008, 02:46 AM
urahara must be some kind of very dungerous person, proposal possibility own death over cooperation...

AnimeLoverX
April 18, 2008, 03:00 AM
^ dungerous haha xD

ok now my POV..
now this flashback makes me wonder a few things..
why did byakuya change..?
why did gin follow azien..? then again maybe he's under azien's illusions... then again he is smart .. so highly unlikely..

intriguing chapter.. i get a feeling that urahara will further revel to us the shame of his past o_O


P.S. Am i the only one whose wondering.. WHO is the power showing us this flashback? o_O

squidbreath
April 18, 2008, 03:02 AM
I cracked up upon seeing young Byakuya, cos I thought it was his girl cousin or something. :D Oh yeah, and Gin looked really anorexic, always knew him as a skinny guy but whao..

zzlow
April 18, 2008, 03:19 AM
why did gin change azien..?
lurking everywhere under illusions isn't making aizen any good.

Nafycuk
April 18, 2008, 03:22 AM
And now I really don't like Gin >___< Freak X(

It's nice to see Buyakuya was quite a cheerful one )))

someguy0830
April 18, 2008, 03:31 AM
That Gin, all smiling while his face is covered in blood and there's a dead guy next to him. Creepy.

Ah, young Byakuya, just as arrogant but lacking the ability to back it up.

Good humor chapter with some nice foreshadowing at the two ends.

poopoomaru
April 18, 2008, 03:35 AM
Well I actually don't think Byakuya has changed all that much really. The biggest difference between now and then was that you couldn't take him seriously when he was just a teen. He was still arrogant, and had those very winded little statements about his superiority. When he had that same attitude as a kid it provoked people like Yourichi who stood as his superior both in nobility, rank, and skill could have fun messing with him. Now as an adult,very serious looking captain, he doesn't have anyone who can mess with him really. Also there is a certain amount of maturity you obviously develop as you grow up over a hundred goddamn years and transition into an occupation of monster fighters that are run primarily by a corrupt government. As far as a certain kind of light behavior he has as a kid we also have to remember that not to long ago at least in SS time his wife died, pulling him into an emotional clash with all of his responsibilities. Byakuya became in part so obsessed with the rules because, in the eyes of nobility at least, he shamed his family twice in his life by marrying Rukia's sister and then adopting Rukia.

Succubus
April 18, 2008, 03:36 AM
Gin is awesome!! <3



why did byakuya change..?

Losing his wife hurt him so much?

poopoomaru
April 18, 2008, 03:43 AM
As far as Gin, while it is very cool, it isn't that surprising. He would have had to have known Gin from essentially the start for him to be so integral a part of all of his schemes. I don't know how much of this is under Shinji's or SS's radar, but I dont think that this is just happening blatantly right in front of everyone and no one cares. Aizen always had his perfect hypnosis to some extent, and considering it is something happening within his own division and probably somewhere in his control, it seems like it would be pretty easy to fool and manipulate anyone who would investigate the sudden accidental death of a shinigami. Considering the fact that their is an innumerable amount of shinigami in Soul Society, all of whom are characterized by having mythical weapons, it seems like death would happen alot amongst the ranks and not be that big of a deal. Being a shinigami doesn't make you immune to getting drunk and falling down the stairs to your doom for instance.

Umbra Wolf
April 18, 2008, 04:10 AM
Good chapter. Not very much revelations except that Gin is a prodigy like Hitsugaya.

But who is he killing. The third seated officer of the 5th division. Without consequences? Did I miss something or why can Gin and Aizen walk around killing like they please? Wouldn't Shinji or Yami or someone find out about it?

A few new questions and less older questions were answered. Good chapter but not astonishing.

KyanWan
April 18, 2008, 04:11 AM
Nice - so - 12th is the research squad, 11th is the brute squad, 2nd is the assassin squad, and Shinji's is the creepy smile squad.

I just love it how Urahura just decided to bring Hiyori along ... to take a huge dump on her. XD

"Come on along, watch me give your position away - lolx0rz - p0wn'd ja!"

Freeloadersan
April 18, 2008, 04:28 AM
Ha ha Yeah, Hiyori did get smoked right there. The rest of the chapter was good too I enjoyed it. It got me thinking that Urahara might want Mayuri for (other then his known scientific brilliance of course) the paralysis aspect of his Zanpakuto. It could be a decent way of binding a shinigami during the vizardification process.

segua
April 18, 2008, 05:38 AM
Well, you got a good point about Mayuri's zanpakuto Freeloardersan but Mayuri might not have a zanpakuto yet. Even if he does, I dunno if he could do the initial release.

koruma
April 18, 2008, 05:53 AM
Ha ha Yeah, Hiyori did get smoked right there. The rest of the chapter was good too I enjoyed it. It got me thinking that Urahara might want Mayuri for (other then his known scientific brilliance of course) the paralysis aspect of his Zanpakuto. It could be a decent way of binding a shinigami during the vizardification process.
I still think the Vaizards agreed/wanted to become Vaizards, not sure about how much you can bind someone of Shinji's Caliber(you can correct it this word is not correct, i'm not sure :( ) with Mayuri's poison. I guess that if your reiatsu is insane you can't be paralyzed that easy, do you see current Aizen being owned by Mayuri's poison? Just remember what he did with Shiro's Bankai :D

About Gin's Assassination, SS clearly don't have a system that covers the hole place otherwise they could find Ichigo & Co in a sec, so i don't see a big deal to get a 3rd seat going out of LoS.

Some fun info about Byakuya and Yoruichi ^^ Now we know where the Shunpo escape scene in SS was based on :)

segua
April 18, 2008, 06:18 AM
I don't think Mayuri became VC of the 12th Division but more like the VC of the Research Institution.

Freeloadersan
April 18, 2008, 06:24 AM
I still think the Vaizards agreed/wanted to become Vaizards, not sure about how much you can bind someone of Shinji's Caliber

I wasn't thinking of it being used as a way of forced vizardification necessarily. More as a way of binding their bodies so they don't run amok while fighting there inner hollow. You could be right about it not affecting stronger shinigamis though. Although if Soifon's Shikai can kill people no matter how powerful, Mayuri's could be similar in it's ability to paralyze no matter how powerful. I don't see Aizen getting owned by Mayuri's Shikai for the simple fact that he probably wouldn't be able to land a hit on Aizen.

sabret00the
April 18, 2008, 06:25 AM
Very boring chapter

Travis
April 18, 2008, 06:42 AM
I still think Hiyori is the Vice Captain of the division, but since the Research and Tech Institute is within the division that Mayuri will only be working there. So it's not like her position has been removed.

We've seen Mayuri kill his subordinates and there is the kill a Captain to become a Captain rule, so there might not be any consequences for killing a seated officer to rise in a division.

bokbokchui
April 18, 2008, 06:47 AM
Was that the Kaien's wife serving the tea omg she looks nothing i imagined. Were Kaien and Ukitake having tea at the pre fallen Shiba mansion? And what is Kaien so reluctant in accepting the Lieutenant position hes from a noble family doesn't he needs to be a Lieutenant or even a captain? i mean byakuya and yoruichi were both captain or going to be captain and if shiba was a family that rival them shouldn't he has to be a captain at the very least? Great chapter after all and Gin is one sick mofo in a cool sorta way

gokusgirl
April 18, 2008, 06:53 AM
Good chapter! But what I want to know is when they plan on showing Isshin Kurosaki, remember he had on a captain's jacket (or whatever) when he killed Grand Fisher. I would be disappointed if they don't include him in this little side stroy arc, I'm dying to see why he's in the human world now! What do everyone else think?

KyleUchiha
April 18, 2008, 07:34 AM
Was that the Kaien's wife serving the tea omg she looks nothing i imagined. Were Kaien and Ukitake having tea at the pre fallen Shiba mansion? And what is Kaien so reluctant in accepting the Lieutenant position hes from a noble family doesn't he needs to be a Lieutenant or even a captain? i mean byakuya and yoruichi were both captain or going to be captain and if shiba was a family that rival them shouldn't he has to be a captain at the very least? Great chapter after all and Gin is one sick mofo in a cool sorta way

He may have not wanted the responsibility and was content with his current position.


Good chapter! But what I want to know is when they plan on showing Isshin Kurosaki, remember he had on a captain's jacket (or whatever) when he killed Grand Fisher. I would be disappointed if they don't include him in this little side stroy arc, I'm dying to see why he's in the human world now! What do everyone else think?

Well, some speculate he is in the Royal Guard at this point, so we might not see the Royal Guard or him as of now, but who knows. Perhaps Kubo may do another Gaiden like this in the future to explain his story.


Great chapter. Loved seeing the young Byakuya. And Ukitake's genius comment regarding Kaien was interesting. And I'm starting to believe Gin had that creepy smile even while he was coming out his mother's womb.:p

darkdana666
April 18, 2008, 08:36 AM
Page 13 made me so very happy~ Since Byakuya's personality always seems so detached and cold, I never really liked his character, just in a fan-girly way.
Byakuya-chan is so cute when he is pissed off! X3 I wonder what happened to him, he seemed so much more fun as a kid. Can't be just his wife's death...

Nice one: Yoruichi stealing his hair band! ^_^ I'd do the same~~~ <3
Hahahaha! His grand father looks really~~~ old~~~~

Darek Khort
April 18, 2008, 08:41 AM
Kaien most likely did not accept the position due to his personality, and perhaps also due to etiquette. Etiquette being "say no 3 times, then take".

I'm surprised that Gin is a genius just like Hitsugaya and that Gin met Aizen at such a young age. I wonder when Tousen meets Aizen and how Aizen was able to influence Tousen. I'm pretty sure Aizen realised in an instant that Gin was a murderous/evil person and so all Aizen had to do was most likely show off his spiritual pressure and more or less a run-down of his goals. "Follow me and you can become stronger"-type offering.

Urahara's comments are quite interesting, and so are Mayuri's. Mayuri doesn't like Urahara that much, and I'm assuming this is because Mayuri knows Urahara is smarter than he is. That's what I believe.
The fact Urahara talks about his death is to me a foreshadowing of what is to come. Obviously he will not actually die; but most likely Mayuri plays a part in Urahara's demise. And most likely Urahara has predicted this.

Neg
April 18, 2008, 08:55 AM
^ dungerous haha xD
why did byakuya change..?


anyone get a sense that grandpa kuchiki is gonna die from the impending fight with the vizards... and that spurring byakuya to become the way he is now. would prob explain his strong dislike to yourichi in the SS arc coz she is close to urahara and we all know that urahara is gonna tear SS apart by creating the vizards.

i'm still curious as to find out if the vizards were created by accident (remember the filler arc in the anime and how those vampire-like ppl were created) or simply by urahara's thirst for science and experimentation.

also... if mayuri was urahara's right hand man from the start... does that mean that he would also know how to create vizards? if so, imagine all captains getting an upgrade. hollow byakuya?

hakufan1one
April 18, 2008, 09:12 AM
On second thought it should last 108 chapters, because this Gaiden is starting to feel rushed

Antillio
April 18, 2008, 09:13 AM
i love page #6 hahaha that little chat with Mayuri & Urahara was the best ever, so Diabolical xD.
I don't get why evry1 is saying Byakuya was so diff back then, like other ppl said he was still arrogant there, with the only diff he did not had the power to back up his mouth.

Jadedmariner
April 18, 2008, 09:29 AM
Hmmmm I like little Gin and Byakuya, but I think they created some what of a plot hole. They seem to age at a rate that is inconsistent with all the other shinigami in the manga, especially Hiyori and Yachiru.

Gin also makes me question if Hiyori is also a genius since she seems to be roughly as young an already a vice captain.

chrisb3
April 18, 2008, 09:44 AM
It's come full circle, started with Aizen and now we are back with him.

Time for the events to begin :P

patedecarne
April 18, 2008, 09:51 AM
What a great chapter! I'm impressed with Urahara in this chapter, his actions were completely unpredictable;

And little Byakuya was too funny! Yoruichi playing with him was grea, hehe!

finalnight
April 18, 2008, 10:03 AM
Yourichi and Byakuya made a cute little couple back then, lol.

This gaiden gets better and better. This tells me the next arc will be the last, he is finally answering every question.

big_p
April 18, 2008, 10:08 AM
Hmmmm I like little Gin and Byakuya, but I think they created some what of a plot hole. They seem to age at a rate that is inconsistent with all the other shinigami in the manga, especially Hiyori and Yachiru.

Gin also makes me question if Hiyori is also a genius since she seems to be roughly as young an already a vice captain.

In regards to this age stuff. While it is inconsistent, I think it may have to do with the fact that some people just LOOK young. I myself am 21 and people always think I'm 15 or something. My sister is 25 and she has the same problem, as does another friend of mine, who actually changes his age at competitions to fool people (it doesn't make things easier for him, he just does it for some reason, i dont know).

But yeah, that's my take on things. Hiyori probably just looks a lot younger than she is.

As for this chapter. I loved it. Mayuri nailed it, Urahara is an enigma. I love that he saw through him but still could not grasp his intentions. That and the Yoruichi scene and the Gin scene were just awesome. Kaien was good too but not quite as interesting.

I would totally be down for extending this arc. Maybe not too long, but at least more than 8 chapters. Say 15 to 20.

patedecarne
April 18, 2008, 10:11 AM
If Urahara really is the man who holds the key to it all, he's responsible for about 50% of total problems in SS, and maybe, with this gaiden, we'll know a dark and malefic Urahara..

and sometime in the future, after Aizen's defeat, Urahara could be the real villain in the series...

Eye of the tiger
April 18, 2008, 10:19 AM
Nice chapter, although didn't further the story that much... except the fact that it seems that Urahara and Aizen already had long term plans/goals in mind even a 110 years before SS arc. Urahara obviously NEEDS mayuri for something he has been doing (extrapolating from Shinji's statement) or has planned on doing even before he became captain, and becoming captain just made it easier. Aizen was already recruiting, maybe kubo'll show how he recruited Tousen (he seems to have "recruited" people in his division rather than having them "assigned". Kaien seems to be just plain lazy, he doesn't want to deal with all the work!
In the long term, I think Shinji will be a part of Urahara's grand plan, and I would hazard a guess that inspite of aizen being what he is, he still might be a part of Urahara's plan. I think Urahara is trying to change the whole way the shinigami-hollow thing/status/powers work; its pretty obvious he's unhappy with the way things are and seeing how he prepared Ichigo and co for the fights, he always knew what to expect... now that seems to me to indicate that HE is the real one pulling the strings and actually needs to get into the king's castle and is using the fights to weed out the powerful ones and/or release the vizard states. Apparently, right now Ichigo probably embodies his goal: a human with powers of a shinigami and a hollow.. all three realms merged in one being!! A unification and world peace dream ... maybe!!

Tsukisama
April 18, 2008, 10:27 AM
I enjoyed this chapter. Mayuri was the vice president of the research institute under Urahara (and probably also a seated officer in the 12th division like 3rd seat). It is nice to see the true relationship between the two scientists as shown in this chapter.

The Byakuya scen was nice. So, he has always been spoiled brat. :amuse The relationship between he and Yoruichi is just as expected it. It was also nice to see more of Captain Kuchiki. It seems he is a lot less pompous head of the Kuchiki clan than his grandson will become.

This chapter also revealed some information about Kaien. Apparently he was also heralded as a genius when he was young, though not as much a genius as Gin. I wonder if we will see Kaien accept the lieutenant position for Ukitake sometime during this gaiden, since we know he eventually does.

Finally, the Gin moments were nice. The start of his relationship with Aizen is revealed. We get some more background information on him being a genius. We even get to see that he has been as sadistic and sociopathic as he is now since childhood (or at least his teenage years). Both he and Aizen really do make such a great duo.

All around, it was a wonderful chapter. With only about four gaiden chapters left, I suppose the peaceful pace that has gone along so far will soon be interrupted by some sort of conflict.


If Urahara really is the man who holds the key to it all, he's responsible for about 50% of total problems in SS, and maybe, with this gaiden, we'll know a dark and malefic Urahara..

and sometime in the future, after Aizen's defeat, Urahara could be the real villain in the series...

I doubt that Urahara will turn out to be the great villain of the series following Aizen's defeat. Urahara is a little shady sometimes, but I feel fairly sure that he is good guy at heart. :hbunny

Franckie
April 18, 2008, 11:08 AM
Never was a major fan of how Kubo writes the majority of fights, but when it comes to writing plot, Kubo has no problems meeting my expectations. It was good seeing Mayuri, Urahara, etc. in action, especially Yoruichi :wtf.

Tendou88
April 18, 2008, 12:08 PM
Great chapter indeed!
I hope we see Isshin in next chapter.
I get the feeling that Gin will backstab Aizen

kat_at_heart
April 18, 2008, 12:29 PM
byakuya was so cute when yoruichi was playing with him but i wander why they decided to put gin in it they must be planning somthing with him

jocouslie
April 18, 2008, 12:40 PM
aizen has finally found and ally in the form of ichimaru gin, who's just about the type aizen would want to use/befriend. i guess what urahara want to do is revolutionize soul society through this technological institute. i guess there's a flaw in the way the hogyouku was developed that instead of helping shinigamis, it turned them to vicious and contagious disease-ridden people who manifests hollow powers. ultimately led to them being vizards if it even was used.

i got a fiendish delight seeing aizen getting an indirect help from urahara in this gaiden arc.

also we'll be seeing tousen here soon. the gang will be complete. replacing the "banished" shinigamis' position/s

Yvese
April 18, 2008, 01:37 PM
Very informative chapter. It seems that Urahara has planned ahead ever since he became a captain. He knows that Mayuri is a genius just like him, and he also knows that what he will be doing ( Hogyuoku or however you spell it, + Vizards ) will cost him to be banished from SS. I'm just curious how Yoruichi, Isshin, and Ishida's dad is involved in all this. Hopefully Kubo clears this up.

gordongirl
April 18, 2008, 01:38 PM
Aww man great chapter:D I espeically love when Byakuya calls Yoruichi a "demon cat". How cute

Xerte
April 18, 2008, 01:42 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/319/19/

gin shikai may be something like localization or something like that? his sword may aim for the location that point his shikai.
if this supposition is right, then gin may also be able to see throuth aizen illusion, that would make him another very good ally for aizen..
aizen & co always have strange power , illusion,lose of 5 sense & maybe gin localization

someguy0830
April 18, 2008, 03:31 PM
That kinda seems a tangent to the link you put up, but in any case we've never seen his sword aim. We've seen him aim, but the sword doesn't ever move in any significant fashion.

patedecarne
April 18, 2008, 03:33 PM
To tell the truth, I cannot say what to predict anymore! Kubo is joining every person that can have a little significance in the gaiden, and now, what could be next? Urahara is building the research center, and Aizen will find some way to become a captain and then give Gin a high seat, but I cannot say which way Kubo will take...

The only thing I know is that only 4 or 5 more chapters won't be enough to explain all of this; until now, the first 4 chapters were mainly to introduce the people, only more 4 chapters to explain the story could be little, don't you think? And the last thing I'd like to see is kubo rushing this so magnificient arc...

akward_silense
April 18, 2008, 03:52 PM
as everyone ahead of me has stated already, Freakin awesome chapter. I am somewhat pleased to learn that Gin is the same age as byakuya. I never thought of that. This is making me wonder who would win in a fight. They are the same age and Gin is already a shinigami and Byakuya is not.......kinda cool. I really like the Gin character. I hope to see some rad stuff from him soon.

Heh, I like how Gin is covered in blood....cool effect.
[hr]
EDIT: hey, I'm a Jr. member now! :)

Shiro-kun
April 18, 2008, 04:32 PM
Mayuri and Urahara moment was cool
We finally get to know how Mayuri comes in into the research facility and also he might be involved with the creation of the Vizards

Byakuya had a Hitsugaya moment ..but with a very superior sense of tone

Gin was awesome and To know that he was a boy genius
is interesting and finally we get to know the foundations of Aizen and Gin's partnership

Mendes
April 18, 2008, 05:32 PM
I believe Byakuya and Gin are destined to have a tough rivalry for years. Maybe Byakuya will eventually swallow his pride and ask Yorouchi for advice/training on Shunpo. I guess Aizen asked Gin to conceal his powers since little, or else his reputation would be too high and drawn too many attention for their plans

gigantor21
April 18, 2008, 05:47 PM
http://i27.tinypic.com/rku7np.jpg
Oh, Lord. Gin was only in the chapter for 2 panels, and bodies are already piling up. :p

Seriously, though, I was NOT expecting to see Gin in the Gaiden at all. I figured his backstory would be delved into over the course of the war. Seeing him here was a pleasant surprise—though not so much for his predecessor. ;)

http://i32.tinypic.com/kngg0.jpg
I thought it was funny that Mayuri’s first line in the chapter was so fatherly. This is the guy whose parenting involves treating his daughter like an object, and stomping the shit out of her if she tries to act like more. Maybe we'll see more on what compelled him to make Nemu here?

http://i31.tinypic.com/fx421c.jpg
And I’m amazed that Urahara was actively pursuing Mayuri’s help with the Institute. I’d always assumed that he’d only been considered for the job because of his skill and Urahara’s exile—which is still true in a sense—but Urahara wanting him personally was a shock. Surely they have him locked up alone for a reason. I’m curious as to what that reason is, and how he proved to the rest of Gotei 13 that he was good enough to get it glossed over.

http://i25.tinypic.com/1icpbq.jpg
What is it with Kubo and shota + titty scenes? :p

I’d always thought that Yoruichi and Byakuya were around the same age, so I was surprised at how much younger he was. It was also surprising to see that Byakuya wasn’t so benign in his arrogance—his parallels with Hitsu were rather jarring. I’m wondering what changed his demeanor so much, since I don’t know if Hisana’s death would be the only reason now.

http://i26.tinypic.com/30bczg4.jpg
Kaien's blunt rebuttal to taking the VC post got me thinking. How much will Kubo delve into the other 3 Noble Families during this mini-arc? He didn't touch on what "duty" was keeping Kaien from taking the post at first, or what changed his mind, so I'm hoping to see that much at the very least. Hopefully, we'll see Kuukaku and Ganju, too.

I loved this chapter. Given how I got a sense of claustrophobia last week, it was refreshing to see so many bases covered here. Now that Gin has been thrown into the mix, it looks like the event that got Urahara and Co. exiled is coming to fruition--I can't wait to see how it turns out.

garreto
April 18, 2008, 07:21 PM
:amuse Hi, first post here at MH. My theory is that Gin kills to protect Matsumoto and he has a deep guilt whenever he does it, but doesn;t want to show Matsumoto his pain, so he masks it with a smile. And this outlet becomes his answer to everyone. His smile always looks forced

Raizen
April 18, 2008, 07:32 PM
I always sort of knew that gin and byakuya were the same age seeing as how they both made captain at the same time. It would be interesting to see a fight between them, but my money would be on byakuya.

This gaiden is getting really interesting and more and more questions are popping up.
I really hate waiting 7 days for just one chapter, they could at least give us two capters or extend the chapter by a couple of pages. JEEEZZZZ. Oh well cool chapter overall :)

Zeus-Tails
April 18, 2008, 07:34 PM
People keep saying Gin is murderous. He's a freaking shinigami. What do shinigami do BUT kill (mostly hollows)?

Donnie_D
April 18, 2008, 07:39 PM
What is it with Kubo and white-haired progidies? I think every white-headed character we've seen has been "special" so far.... Ukitate because of his dual zankputou, and Gin/Hitsu because they're extremely talented for them to be so young.

mdp
April 18, 2008, 07:39 PM
People keep saying Gin is murderous. He's a freaking shinigami. What do shinigami do BUT kill (mostly hollows)?

Good point, alot of the the shinigami seem to be pretty murderous :amuse

turbo_sc
April 18, 2008, 07:41 PM
Wouldn't it be ironic if the 5th division's third seat was actually Tousen's friend that died?

Zeus-Tails
April 18, 2008, 07:44 PM
Wouldn't it be ironic if the 5th division's third seat was actually Tousen's friend that died?

I think Tousen said that friend was killed by her husband. I think Gin's a little too young to be a groom.

mdp
April 18, 2008, 07:44 PM
Wouldn't it be ironic if the 5th division's third seat was actually Tousen's friend that died?

LOL o shit.. That would be unbelievably ironic!

black_crow
April 18, 2008, 08:22 PM
This chapter was great! Wasnt expecting Byakuya to be so..er..uh...different. Time realy does change people. Seeing a blood covered Gin was intresting. This chapter aso shined light on Urahara and Mayuri. urahara is seeming more and more coniving as time passes. I love how bi polar he seems. One minute he is laughing and acting like a moron the next hes all evil/daring.
I wonder how shinigami age. Yourichi looks the same now as she did back then, and Byakuya definatly grew some since then.

heiky0711
April 18, 2008, 09:50 PM
People keep saying Gin is murderous. He's a freaking shinigami. What do shinigami do BUT kill (mostly hollows)?

Maybe murderous in an evil way. of course shinigami kills hollow and maybe people as well but gin's character is slightly different than the others.

Btw, byakuya is not of the same age as yourichi and the reason why is because yourichi always refer to him as "little byakuya" which makes sense after all.

ShaunMati1
April 18, 2008, 09:54 PM
To tell the truth, I cannot say what to predict anymore! Kubo is joining every person that can have a little significance in the gaiden, and now, what could be next? Urahara is building the research center, and Aizen will find some way to become a captain and then give Gin a high seat, but I cannot say which way Kubo will take...

The only thing I know is that only 4 or 5 more chapters won't be enough to explain all of this; until now, the first 4 chapters were mainly to introduce the people, only more 4 chapters to explain the story could be little, don't you think? And the last thing I'd like to see is kubo rushing this so magnificient arc...

Well for the arc not having enough chapters to explain everything, well take a look at the chapter where szayel fought mayuri. Kubo used every panel with a whole bunch of conversation happening, explaining each others techniques and a lot of other things. Kubo can do that with the next 4 chapters. To be honest i dont think he has many more people to introduce. The friendship between Gin and Aizen and eventually tousen will probably be answered as the war comes. Right now this arc is dedicated to the creation of the vaizards, seeing as we had a few chapters focusing on them and only them. I hope the next 4 chapters or whatever it is focuses on urahara and mayruri. But to me those 2 dont seem like the type to want to become stronger. I think maybe shinji will approach them once he figures out they are a RnD department and ask them if they know a way to become stronger and they will test it on him. The reason i say he is tested on first is because he seems like the obvious leader when the vaizards are introduced before HM. But as for the other vaizards getting exposed to the Hougyoku....thats beyond me.

Zeus-Tails
April 18, 2008, 10:32 PM
Byakuya seems to be this type of person (typical in shounen manga):

He is of noble upbringing. He's not that powerful yet but he is a hard-worker because he feels he has to live up to his family's name. Yoruichi and Byakuya are friends. Although Yoruchi is older than Byakuya, she isn't by much. Like if Byakuya is in his teens, she is probably in her late teens or early twenties (I wouldn't be able to understand why a woman who is significantly older than a boy would play tag with him :P). They are friends, but Byakuya probably feels bad that she is already a captain and he has yet to even become a shinigami, so he feels he's behind. Therefore, he wants to stop playing around with her as frequently so he can focus on honing his skills so he acts like she's pestering him. However, as playful and coy as Yoruichi is, Byakuya just cannot resist playing with her for a while.

Just my take on it.

bradz22
April 18, 2008, 10:38 PM
well, byakuya has indeed gotten rid of his rash attitude. lol!

YJiang
April 18, 2008, 11:18 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/319/19/

gin shikai may be something like localization or something like that? his sword may aim for the location that point his shikai.
if this supposition is right, then gin may also be able to see throuth aizen illusion, that would make him another very good ally for aizen..
aizen & co always have strange power , illusion,lose of 5 sense & maybe gin localization

By "how did you find him", I think he meant "how did you think he was?" as in how skilled was our third seat.

bokbokchui
April 18, 2008, 11:21 PM
I wouldn't be able to understand why a woman who is significantly older than a boy would play tag with him :P

then again who can understand a woman who is in cat form half the time lol

segua
April 18, 2008, 11:39 PM
But Byakuya lost his rashness but he's still arrogant as ever.

Zeus-Tails
April 18, 2008, 11:54 PM
But Byakuya lost his rashness but he's still arrogant as ever.

His arrogance changed. Before he was arrogant because of his family name. Now he's arrogant because he THINKS he can kick everyone's ass.

Tsukisama
April 19, 2008, 12:12 AM
Oh, Lord. Gin was only in the chapter for 2 panels, and bodies are already piling up. :p

Seriously, though, I was NOT expecting to see Gin in the Gaiden at all. I figured his backstory would be delved into over the course of the war. Seeing him here was a pleasant surprise—though not so much for his predecessor. ;)

It seems as though the habit of writing Bleach reviews dies hard. :amuse

Gin's appearance in the gaiden definitely was an unexpected pleasure. Now only Tousen needs to make a cameo, and the Aizen dream team is complete. With only a few chapters left to the gaiden, I can't imagine Kubo going into too much more depth concerning the history of the Aizen alliance, but I think that we might get perhaps a few panels or even a couple of pages on it in the remaining gaiden chapters.


I thought it was funny that Mayuri’s first line in the chapter was so fatherly. This is the guy whose parenting involves treating his daughter like an object, and stomping the shit out of her if she tries to act like more. Maybe we'll see more on what compelled him to make Nemu here?

And I’m amazed that Urahara was actively pursuing Mayuri’s help with the Institute. I’d always assumed that he’d only been considered for the job because of his skill and Urahara’s exile—which is still true in a sense—but Urahara wanting him personally was a shock. Surely they have him locked up alone for a reason. I’m curious as to what that reason is, and how he proved to the rest of Gotei 13 that he was good enough to get it glossed over.

I agree that Mayuri's observations on Hiyori's poor upbringing brought Nemu, Mayuri's vision of an ideal daughter, to mind. I would not be surprised if, while showing Mayuri working on experiments, we see the plans for Nemu or even the beginning of the process he went through in manufacturing her. As for why he made Nemu, my guess is that he simply did it because he could. From his description of her during his fight with Uryuu, she is the resultant combination of his research into gigai and mod souls. He was likely so proud of his breakthrough that he decided to make her his "daughter." Although rahter unlikely, it would be interesting if his encounter with Hiyori had some bearing on his decision for a daughter.

Urahara wanting Mayuri's help is not really that surprising to me. The scenario in this chapter between the two really happened just as I expected. Urahara wants to recreate the 12th division into a research and development division and he will need brilliant scientists to aid him in this endeavor, since although Urahara is brilliant, it would not be much of a research institute with just himself. Mayuri Kurotsuchi is the most likely candidate we have have ever seen so far in the manga to help Urahara accomplish this task, thus making him an obvious choice for vice president of the research institute (given the characters of whom we currently know, as Kubo could have just made up a new one, but that would have been a bit superfluous).


What is it with Kubo and shota + titty scenes? :p

I’d always thought that Yoruichi and Byakuya were around the same age, so I was surprised at how much younger he was. It was also surprising to see that Byakuya wasn’t so benign in his arrogance—his parallels with Hitsu were rather jarring. I’m wondering what changed his demeanor so much, since I don’t know if Hisana’s death would be the only reason now.

Kubo does seem to have rather hentai-esque thoughts on his mind sometimes, doesn't he? :amuse I don't think that Byakuya and Yoruichi are that different in age (at least on a relative shinigami age scale). I think Byakuya just has not yet gone through puberty yet and is in his early teen years, while Yoruichi seems to be in upper teens or early twenties.

Both Byakuya and Gin reminded me of Hitsugaya in this chapter. Gin recalls Hitsugaya's boy genius status, while Byakuya recalls more Hitsugaya's demeanor. Byakuya's change in personality was probably caused by a number of influences. Obviously, Hisana's death had a factor in it. We know that he faced numerous objections from the clan when he decided to marry her, which in conjunction to the gravity of being head of the clan also likely had a hand in his more serious demeanor. Plus, the departure of his childhood friend Yoruichi (which, although he seems annoyed by her, probably was a rather important person in his life) and the death of his grandfather (I have this ominous feeling that Grandpa Kuchiki's death is tragic) more than likely factor in to this as well.


Kaien's blunt rebuttal to taking the VC post got me thinking. How much will Kubo delve into the other 3 Noble Families during this mini-arc? He didn't touch on what "duty" was keeping Kaien from taking the post at first, or what changed his mind, so I'm hoping to see that much at the very least. Hopefully, we'll see Kuukaku and Ganju, too.

I have been wondering about this as well. So far, we only know of the Kuchiki, Shihouin, and the fallen Shiba clans with the other two noble families still a mystery. It would be nice to see something of the two remaining families. Also, the current status of the Shiba clan would be nice to see. Kuukaku should be around Yoruichi's age, and so she might be active in SS at this point. (I wonder if she has both her arms now. :blink) I would imagine that Ganju would be a baby right now. We know that he was said to have been rather young when Kaien died, and thus we can deduce that he is younger than Rukia and Renji.


I loved this chapter. Given how I got a sense of claustrophobia last week, it was refreshing to see so many bases covered here. Now that Gin has been thrown into the mix, it looks like the event that got Urahara and Co. exiled is coming to fruition--I can't wait to see how it turns out.

In comparison to last week's chapter, this chapter definitely had more attention-retaining content. Gin's arrival on the scene definitely heralds the beginning of the end to the peace of this time. I predict the next chapter will bring the first traces of the conflict that leads to the vizards being exiled.


:amuse Hi, first post here at MH. My theory is that Gin kills to protect Matsumoto and he has a deep guilt whenever he does it, but doesn;t want to show Matsumoto his pain, so he masks it with a smile. And this outlet becomes his answer to everyone. His smile always looks forced

Welcome to MH, garreto. :hbunny

Your theory is possible, but I don't think that is the case. Especially in the light of this most recent chapter, it seems that Gin is just a sociopath and that he has no qualms crossing any ethical boundaries. Gin more than likely does have feelings for Matusmoto, but I think that it would be a bit of an overstatement to say that all of his actions so far have revolved around her. Gin has his own ambitions and seems to have no problem doing whatever it takes to achieve his goals.


To tell the truth, I cannot say what to predict anymore! Kubo is joining every person that can have a little significance in the gaiden, and now, what could be next? Urahara is building the research center, and Aizen will find some way to become a captain and then give Gin a high seat, but I cannot say which way Kubo will take...

The only thing I know is that only 4 or 5 more chapters won't be enough to explain all of this; until now, the first 4 chapters were mainly to introduce the people, only more 4 chapters to explain the story could be little, don't you think? And the last thing I'd like to see is kubo rushing this so magnificient arc...

Kubo still has enough time. With only two more vizards to introduce and otherwise all of the necessary players in place to start the conflict, four chapter is plenty of room to bring about the vizardification of the vizards and the reason for their exile.

Darek Khort
April 19, 2008, 01:26 AM
I reckon 5 chapters (-104, -103, -102, -101, -100) is enough for now. Kubo will probably go back to the "-" chapters at a later time.
We have to ask ourselves, 'what is the reason for this gaiden'? Since the top 3 espada, Aizen, Tousen and Gin are in the fake Karakura Town, it's most likely that this gaiden is for the introduction of the Vizards.
Afterall, we already know from the gaiden so far how powerful a lot of the Vizards were before they became Vizards (captains/vice-captain). This gaiden is most likely to show that the Vizards are on-par or close to the top 3 espada.

Chapter -104 = Urahara and Mayuri go to work on establishing the Lab with help from a few scientists held up in the maggot's nest (aka, like that fat guy, the demon-horn guy and others in the lab). Aizen meets Tousen. We meet the remaining Vizards yet to be introduced. At the end, Urahara suggests the idea of a powerful object that could strengthen shinigami beyond their limits.

Chapter -103 = Aizen is caught peeping at the labwork as Shinji visits Urahara on a proposition Urahara makes to him. Aizen dismisses himself.
At the end, Urahara is seen holding the Hougyoku.

Chapter -102 = A surprise attack on SS. Hollows attack. Arrancar involved too. Espada as well (if espada existed before Aizen...which I'm pretty sure they did). Top 3 Espada are there as well. In desperation, Urahara tells Seiretei about his Hougyoku.
SS realises they do not have the strength to defeat espadas. Some captains and vice-captains decide to take Urahara's offer to become stronger using Hougyoku.

Chapter -101 and -100= Vizard transformation beings. During the process of hollowfication they kill a lot of friends and foe. Finally after they are able to gain control, they defeat a few espada's and injure top 3. HM retreats.
However, like Bounto (I know, filler arc) like Vizard, Seiretei cannot accept the Vizards. They order the execution of said vizards and lay blame entirely on Urahara. Urahara realises that he will be executed, and so he disappears to the human world with all parties involved using his special untraceable gigai.
Vizards hate shinigami cause even though they saved SS, they were kicked out.

Chapter 316+ - Top 3 Espada in Karakura Town. Vizards appear after Shinigami captains are badly injured. They recognise each other, but Vizards underestimate the top 3 Espada who have been powered up by the Hyogyoku.

hasoon87
April 19, 2008, 01:28 AM
four chapter is plenty of room to bring about the vizardification of the vizards and the reason for their exile.

From the way you phrased your sentence I take it that the gaiden is gonna go on to -100 then proceed with the war? Is that official or just a guess?

Like everyone else here, I'm thoroughly enjoying the gaiden, so much info and history coming to light, thats why I asked about the four chapters, I dont want it to end so soon!

Darek Khort
April 19, 2008, 01:33 AM
No one wants it to end soon. There's so much to learn from this gaiden.
However, we are all basing when it will end on the fact that Kubo just happens to choose -108, and -100 is a nice, round number to end the gaiden at. It could very well extend further.

Shiro-kun
April 19, 2008, 01:44 AM
I doubt the gaiden well last after -100 but it might last ten chapters to -98...who knows i am satisfied what already has been distributed (and by factor i might be satisfied in the end maybe) .and 21 pages a chapter is more than often i would say

2xMachina
April 19, 2008, 02:24 AM
My question is, why pick -108, if he's not planning to use up all 108?

I'm not too sure I want it that long, but I certainly wish it is not just 8 chapters.

EDIT: Saw the FAQ. Still funny that he chose 108 when only wanting to use 8...

poopoomaru
April 19, 2008, 02:52 AM
I think honestly Yourichi is much MUCH older then Byakuya quite frankly. Their playing around is likely just because of her nature of liking to have fun and it being amusing messing with her fellow nobility, especially one so very very fun to mess with as Byakuya is ( who can beat a kid whose idea of trash talk is saying it will be X000 years before you can even stand a chance? the boy's creative). When Soifon was just a toddler Yourichi looked exactly the same, it seems fair to say that aging for the very very strong is very fast, and then slows down once they reach a generally adult form. Soifon looked about the same age as Byakuya at this point, and while that doesn't really prove my assumption I think it at least suggests as much. Also Yourichi could be playing these games with Byakuya because his family wanted him to be trained in Flash steps, and who better to help you then the best? We know his speed is actually pretty incredible as a result of his knowing her, he even learned some of her techniques. She seems pretty happy to train anyone close to her frankly, everyone she is close too frankly flash steps with the best of them (Urahara, Soifon, Byakuya).

With Gin I happy to see something really unique about him as far as his progression goes, this is the first indication we have seen aside from just his being Aizen's second in command that suggests he actually has a degree of power he is hiding. Before all we ever had was speculation to this degree without much evidence, now we actually can say with some degree of certainty that given his "genius" there was likely ALOT more he could be hiding as far as power goes. Now all we need is some Tousen appearance so we can sort of bring it all together.

I can totally see how Tousen joined the darkside in my head. Aizen tries to pull some illusionary nonsense in Tousen's presence or some sort of nonsense goes down that everyone else is fallen into and Tousen has like a wtf moment which he then leads back to Aizen. Tousen busts out his justice speech and tries to strike Aizen down in some way and Aizen wtfpwns him instantly. He then proceeds to brainwash Tousen with some anti SS propaganda he has prepared and convinces him that justice is really with him and the downfall of the cruel and corrupt Soul Society. If you think about it SS is corrupt enough in alot of its own little ways that it can be pretty easy to make an argument against them or to show Tousen some of that corruption in some form to convince him. Tousen agrees then asks what to do next, and Aizen says to just go about his business like he always would, and that he will alert Tousen when they will meet again.

segua
April 19, 2008, 05:45 AM
I could totally see Aizen giving a "art thou holier" monologue that convinces Tousen to pledge his loyalty to Aizen thinking that Aizen could possibly change SS into a model SS.

Kaijuu
April 19, 2008, 05:51 AM
My question is, why pick -108, if he's not planning to use up all 108?

I'm not too sure I want it that long, but I certainly wish it is not just 8 chapters.

EDIT: Saw the FAQ. Still funny that he chose 108 when only wanting to use 8...
Why not? The Gaiden is set "a century earlier". So I think the final capter in this Gaiden will be -100...

Also, there was an special chapter not that long ago: "Bleach -15", telling us the story of Hitsugaya. The "-15" maybe tells us, that Hitsugaya came to Gotei 13 only 15 years ago^^

Donnie_D
April 19, 2008, 09:33 AM
Hmmm.... this gaiden is probably a lot more popular than Kubo thought that it would be. I wonder what the chances of him extending it are? I, for one, would actually not mind if he did 108 chapters of it.

jocouslie
April 19, 2008, 09:59 AM
Hmmm.... this gaiden is probably a lot more popular than Kubo thought that it would be. I wonder what the chances of him extending it are? I, for one, would actually not mind if he did 108 chapters of it.

yes i wouldn't mind if its 108 chapters cause i think the aizen vs soul society arc is the last arc, of course i'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that it is the final arc.

as for my prediction, i wanted hachi and the other girl vizard to be in the next chapter. anything about them is very nice for me. also i wanted a bit of conversation by gin and shinji. aizen's plot is superb from the start it seems.

patedecarne
April 19, 2008, 10:28 AM
Yes, Hacchi and Mashiro must show up in the upcoming chapters, after all, they'll become vaizards as well;

And talking about manipulation, Aizen and Urahara are masters of it, they're good at this art..

But about the gaiden, if Kubo is really surprised about it, maybe we can see another individuals gaidens in future, like Isshin, i he isn't in the gaiden arc; Its interesting to see the past for some intriguing characters

Eye of the tiger
April 19, 2008, 10:44 AM
yes i wouldn't mind if its 108 chapters cause i think the aizen vs soul society arc is the last arc, of course i'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that it is the final arc.

as for my prediction, i wanted hachi and the other girl vizard to be in the next chapter. anything about them is very nice for me. also i wanted a bit of conversation by gin and shinji. aizen's plot is superb from the start it seems.

There is definitely going to be at least one more arc at the King's castle/dimension with the scope of another gaiden arc involving the captains of the 0 squad as well as the king and his "ministers" and magic of souls and soul conversion etc. so no sweat for at least 2 more years!!:D

jocouslie
April 19, 2008, 10:51 AM
Yes, Hacchi and Mashiro must show up in the upcoming chapters, after all, they'll become vaizards as well;

And talking about manipulation, Aizen and Urahara are masters of it, they're good at this art..

But about the gaiden, if Kubo is really surprised about it, maybe we can see another individuals gaidens in future, like Isshin, i he isn't in the gaiden arc; Its interesting to see the past for some intriguing characters

i agree but wouldn't 108 chapters cover all of those plus that isshin part

Eye of the tiger
April 19, 2008, 11:10 AM
I don't think Kubo's gonna goo all the way for 108 chapters... he'll do this for a couple mnore months max and then go back to the fight.. I wish he'd show Unohana fight.. but he'll probably cut back to Yamma and Aizen blabbering .. plus there's the whole Gin/Tousen+vasto lordes that need to be brought into the equation.. But I think he'll suddenly then cut back to say -90 or so when Gin becomes captain or tousen and then do that for a few chapters.. or maybe Isshin & Ryuken if its not covered in this flashback...

BTW.. "pendulum swings back" seems a bit tacky to me.. lol..

Sinister-Seven
April 19, 2008, 07:06 PM
Why not? The Gaiden is set "a century earlier". So I think the final capter in this Gaiden will be -100...

Also, there was an special chapter not that long ago: "Bleach -15", telling us the story of Hitsugaya. The "-15" maybe tells us, that Hitsugaya came to Gotei 13 only 15 years ago^^

I thought that this whole thing was meant to be eight chapters? Eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one, back to the freaking current stuff. Thought I remember that being said somewhere, weeks before the Gaiden even started.

And I was thinking that as well, that -15 might indicate it being a mere fifteen years ago, which makes Hitsugaya's rise to Captain even more impressive. Putting the chapters as -108 and what not might just be to tell us it took place around a century ago. If Kubo plans on doing this sort of thing again, it will be useful to have them numbered that way, so we can see what came first and roughly how far something was from another backstory.

redcometfm
April 19, 2008, 08:06 PM
Mangakas usually have the next 8 chapters written out. Since he planned it for the gaiden to go for 2 or 2.5 months, it's most likely going to stay that way. As such, I'm sure he's squeezed in everything he needed and wanted to.

Tsukisama
April 19, 2008, 08:12 PM
As stated in the Bleach Gaiden FAQ (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29387), Kubo has stated in an interview that this gaiden should only last for around 8 chapters, not 108 chapters.

This discussion, however, is becoming off-topic from the purpose of discussing the events of Chapter -105 and predictions for Chapter -104.

If you feel the need to ponder how many chapters this gaiden will contain any further, use the official gaiden discussion thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25715).

Yondy
April 19, 2008, 08:12 PM
I'm actually enjoying these chapters more than the usual manga, haha.

I liked seeing these guys as kids, Byakuya was funny - he looked a lot like Rukia (of course).

Kisuke and Kaien are two characters that I love and we don't get to see much, so I'm more than happy to see more of them!

Aaaand Gin being a prodigy didn't impress me much.

patedecarne
April 19, 2008, 08:34 PM
Still I'm impressed, no, not impressed, it isn't the right word, but scared is the right one, about Urahara; Kisuke seemed evil in this chapter, the ingenious Kisuke with that crazy hat in the beginning of series is completely different from Kisuke in 110 years in the past..

Maybe in the current time, Kisuke carries so many "sins" in the heart, that's why he's helping greatly Ichigo and co.

Certain a perfect development to a great character...

Sinister-Seven
April 19, 2008, 09:04 PM
Still I'm impressed, no, not impressed, it isn't the right word, but scared is the right one, about Urahara; Kisuke seemed evil in this chapter, the ingenious Kisuke with that crazy hat in the beginning of series is completely different from Kisuke in 110 years in the past..

Maybe in the current time, Kisuke carries so many "sins" in the heart, that's why he's helping greatly Ichigo and co.

Certain a perfect development to a great character...

I thought this was 100 years ago, not 110? Both versions I have read said that this took place a century ago.

And you know, is anyone but Urahara and the Vizards really necessary to this arc? Okay, maybe Aizen and Kurotsuchi could have some sort of part in this, but I am starting to wonder why Kubo is showing us all of these other characters. Are Byakuya and Gin going to matter at all in the next four chapters? I would not think so. Just seems like a lot of the characters that we know and love are being tossed in just to please the fans. Not that I am complaining. It just seems like some characters are appearing to take up space and make people go "My favorite character? Awesome!"

WhiteFang32
April 19, 2008, 09:26 PM
Can someone please help me understand the detention unit. Urahara says the purpose of the detention unit is to place people who "are judged through their thoughts and actions, they could be dangerous to their fellow shinigami or eles become a hinderance to the proper running of the division itself.

Now what I dont understand who is deemed "dangerous" After this last chapter we see little Gin running around killing poor 3rd seats. If you ask me that sounds like a person who should be in the detention unit based on Urahara's statement. Espically considering the fact that Gin kills for no reason and with no remorse. Another person would be Kenpachi...I would consider him dangerous as well...and he also is a hinderance to the running of his unit since he marches to the beat of his own drum. Finally, how could they not know about Aizen's evil intentions if they deem people dangerous based on their thoughts as well? That also makes me think what Mayuri did to get imprisoned.

I mean perphas there is a way of choosing who is and who isnt a canidate for the detention unit or perpahs they are not doing there job correctly...

patedecarne
April 19, 2008, 09:40 PM
Well, even if kenpachi is a dangerous one, he defeated the previous captain, and that's one of the 3 possible requirements to become a captain, then I guess it can't be helped...

About Gin, well, seems only Aizen saw his crime, and Aizen won't tell bout this to anyone, as he's seeing Gin as a potential ally;

And I agree that the SS laws has so many flaws; to jail someone that ever hadn't do anything bad is a little, merciless, if you ask me, and I'm sure many people inside Gotei 13 would agree with me too..

The explanation about Aizen not being imprisoned is that Aizen never spoke his thoughts to anyone; about the others people imprisoned, even if they didn't commit any crime, I believe somehow they told their thoughts to anyone and SS noticed that, maybe they had good intentions on telling such thoughts to someone, but SS sure not share the same opinions...

llamapie
April 19, 2008, 09:55 PM
so Urahara had some crazy plan, knowing it would piss off SS. But since I believe he was a captain in SS for a long time, I think this Gaiden will do a time skip, say 50 years leading to the event he gets booted from SS.

vintagemistakes
April 19, 2008, 10:17 PM
well its highly unlikely Urahara would get booted after a week on the job...

I'm enjoying this flashback so much more then the current story line. Finding out about the characters past has been much more fulfilling... Everything is so much more light hearted and fun then the HM arc... this is where Tite Kubo's strength lies... not in prolonged/repetitive fights but in the simpler moments of a story. This Gaiden arc has reinvigorated my enthusiasm for the series...

fistsofrage
April 19, 2008, 11:02 PM
Gin isn't stupid...he wouldn't kill a guy unless he was completely sure that there would be no retribution. He simply wanted to move up in the ranks to show his power. I wouldn't consider it evil because there was a rational reason behind it, he probably wanted to know how strong he was compared to the guys at the top.

Sinister-Seven
April 19, 2008, 11:15 PM
so Urahara had some crazy plan, knowing it would piss off SS. But since I believe he was a captain in SS for a long time, I think this Gaiden will do a time skip, say 50 years leading to the event he gets booted from SS.

Before all of this, I was under the assumption that he had been a Captain for a while before being kicked out, but this last chapter makes me think that he will not be around very long. That one page made him seem all shifty and what not. I could see it skip ahead a bit, since I have a hard time believing that he will be around for just a couple days. Yoruichi was said to disappear around this time, and I always thought she left when Urahara was kicked out. These chapters are really messing with everything I came up with before...

notBowen
April 19, 2008, 11:25 PM
Gin isn't stupid...he wouldn't kill a guy unless he was completely sure that there would be no retribution. He simply wanted to move up in the ranks to show his power. I wouldn't consider it evil because there was a rational reason behind it, he probably wanted to know how strong he was compared to the guys at the top.
You wouldn't consider what was happening on those last pages of this chapter evil? Ha, I sure hope this sort of moral relativity of yours doesn't extend to your non-fictional reasoning.

llamapie
April 19, 2008, 11:49 PM
Before all of this, I was under the assumption that he had been a Captain for a while before being kicked out, but this last chapter makes me think that he will not be around very long. That one page made him seem all shifty and what not. I could see it skip ahead a bit, since I have a hard time believing that he will be around for just a couple days. Yoruichi was said to disappear around this time, and I always thought she left when Urahara was kicked out. These chapters are really messing with everything I came up with before...

Good point. It may also lead to Aizen getting his captain seat.. So many questions now.

WhiteFang32
April 20, 2008, 12:08 AM
My point is just that it makes no sense at all for there to be a deteion unit if the rules are not absolute. It seems to me that they imprision some people for not even doing anything wrong. Only becuase they "might be dangerous" while Gin actually murdered another shinigami and he gets promoted. The last 2 Chapters have completely confused me. I dont understand the point of the detention unit.

Tsukisama
April 20, 2008, 12:30 AM
My point is just that it makes no sense at all for there to be a deteion unit if the rules are not absolute. It seems to me that they imprision some people for not even doing anything wrong. Only becuase they "might be dangerous" while Gin actually murdered another shinigami and he gets promoted. The last 2 Chapters have completely confused me. I dont understand the point of the detention unit.

Gin is being promoted by Aizen, another secret sociopath. Given that no one has ever detected Aizen's evil intents, I believe that the people judged to be dangerous based upon outwardly perceivable evidence (i.e., no telepathy or any other special method that could not be deceived through extreme care such as Aizen and Gin must have exhibited). As long as Aizen is the only one who knows of Gin's murder, then there is no reason to say that the Central 46 are giving him preferential treatment or something like that.

People who are not as meticulous as Aizen and Gin, who cannot hide or simply choose not to hide their dangerous nature, are the only ones that would be detected and labeled a problem. SS is not omniscient and all-knowing. They can be deceived, and Aizen is the prime example of this.

hatsuharupeace
April 20, 2008, 12:35 AM
I have to disagree with you there, Tsukisama. Gin killed the shinigami, and when you kill/defeat a person who is above you, you take their position right??? Like how Zaraki got his position as a captain in the Gotei 13.

Tsukisama
April 20, 2008, 12:40 AM
Still I'm impressed, no, not impressed, it isn't the right word, but scared is the right one, about Urahara; Kisuke seemed evil in this chapter, the ingenious Kisuke with that crazy hat in the beginning of series is completely different from Kisuke in 110 years in the past..

Maybe in the current time, Kisuke carries so many "sins" in the heart, that's why he's helping greatly Ichigo and co.

Certain a perfect development to a great character...

I didn't actually see an evil side to Urahara in this chapter. The only possibly dark scene is in this chapter involving Urahara was this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.4/06/), which I interpreted as Urahara simply trying to get Mayuri to join his cause. Urahara is aware of Mayuri's amorality and he knows that Mayuri would be considering the prospect of his death. Urahara blatently bringing up Mayuri's ambition in such a manner is the reason (as I interpreted the scene) why Kurotsuchi called him despicable.
[hr]

I have to disagree with you there, Tsukisama. Gin killed the shinigami, and when you kill/defeat a person who is above you, you take their position right??? Like how Zaraki got his position as a captain in the Gotei 13.

We only know that to be a method of becoming a Gotei 13 captain. That has never been confirmed as being a method of gaining any other position. Captains are expected to be the strongest shinigami in SS, and it makes sense that defeating one in combat can gain you their position, since you would be stronger than the captain and thus an asset to SS. It would be pandemonium if you could get any seat in Gotei 13 just by killing the person. I think that the people seated below captain are merely granted their position by appointment.

patedecarne
April 20, 2008, 12:45 AM
I didn't actually see an evil side to Urahara in this chapter. The only possibly dark scene is in this chapter involving Urahara was this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.4/06/), which I interpreted as Urahara simply trying to get Mayuri to join his cause. Urahara is aware of Mayuri's amorality and he knows that Mayuri would be considering the prospect of his death. Urahara blatently bringing up Mayuri's ambition in such a manner is the reason (as I interpreted the scene) why Kurotsuchi called him despicable.


Yes, you got the point, Tsuki! Mainly because this panel; Well, when I said evil, wasn't in the true sense, like Gin or Aizen, but something like: He's amoral, then I'll be amoral to have him in my cause;

It's like when a person uses everything to achieve his goals, he'll breaking some limits and rules, just like Maquiavel said: " The ends justifies the means", in a strong sense, the word evil could be replaced by amoral in the context of the chapter;

It's not like Urahara will do something evil, but his actions to set free Mayuri could be a little extreme with bad results...

Tsukisama
April 20, 2008, 12:57 AM
Yes, you got the point, Tsuki! Mainly because this panel; Well, when I said evil, wasn't in the true sense, like Gin or Aizen, but something like: He's amoral, then I'll be amoral to have him in my cause;

It's like when a person uses everything to achieve his goals, he'll breaking some limits and rules, just like Maquiavel said: " The ends justifies the means", in a strong sense, the word evil could be replaced by amoral in the context of the chapter;

It's not like Urahara will do something evil, but his actions to set free Mayuri could be a little extreme with bad results...

I had interpreted your previous statement to mean that you saw that page and concluded from it that it made Urahara seem evil or at least amoral in some way.

My take on that scene is not that it shows any amorality in Urahara per se, but instead it shows that Urahara is completely aware of Mayuri's amorality and thus it delineates to Mayuri (and also the reader) how aware Urahara is.

Inkovic
April 20, 2008, 01:04 AM
Does anybody feel that the perception of the once feared Soul Society who were willing to execute Rukia over such a trivial matter has been destroyed with them being portrayed as "lovable" idiots? Anyone?

The way these shinigami act its almost like a High school manga :s

Tsukisama
April 20, 2008, 01:07 AM
Does anybody feel that the perception of the once feared Soul Society who were willing to execute Rukia over such a trivial matter has been destroyed with them being portrayed as "lovable" idiots? Anyone?

The way these shinigami act its almost like a High school manga :s

You have to keep in mind that it was really Aizen who orchestrated Rukia being executed for her minor crime. Everyone in SS commented on how they thought that the sentence was overly harsh.

eddy26
April 20, 2008, 01:09 AM
Gin being an evil shinigami from the start isn't a big revelation the only interesting thing about it is that he is a prodigy like Hitsugaya. Maybe Gin is jealous of Hitsugaya because Hitsugaya became a captain quicker than he did. That's one possibility I came up with it is probably wrong but you never know. If the next chapter does reveal Tousen I hope he shows Komamura as well. Most of the captains have already been shown in this arc except for the 11th squad captain and Komamura. What did Yammamoto do for Komamura that made him so loyal to him?
Kubo better hurry up and show the last two vizards Hacchi and Mashiro. If this arc is only eight chapters he is running out of time. I think they are probably the VC for Rose and Love.

bourne
April 20, 2008, 03:14 AM
it seems killing is ok in SS but it has to be by fair fight where both party go face to face with their sword.

i don't know about the samurai era but in europe before they became illegal by king order duals for honor were common.

gin, kenpachi are then ok in SS standard

but as we saw, a prisoner attacked from the back in the detention unit which is therefore not ok

that's what i could understand...but iru said they put people in the detention cell before they did anything wrong...which is difficult to understand.

MooMoo
April 20, 2008, 05:02 AM
^they detain them because they are DEEMED a threat. Which the only thing I can really understand would be that they have power, but are not in control of that power, be it that it is simply out of their control or grasp, or they are not mentally stable/trustworthy.

Travis
April 20, 2008, 07:55 AM
I think we'll see like a 5 year time jump in the next chapter or 2. The way Urahara said that thing about if he died Mayuri would become the head, gives another character the motive to snitch about the gigai getting Urahara exiled.

A thing I don't understand about the Urahara being exiled thing is. If he were exiled then why would Yoruichi have to assist with his "escape" and why would she be in trouble with helping him leave SS. It's a bit weird I think.

gikongan
April 20, 2008, 11:13 AM
So there're 2 ways to become a Vaizard/Arrancar: first is Hoygoku, the second one is the training. Maybe Urahara developed Hoygoku instead of training. It was taking too much time and was very dangerous. And hoygoku can efface the differences between Shinigami and hollow in moment - that said Aizen. So now we know why Hyiori knew all about training - she was Urahara's vice captain and had to know everything about his experiments. Maybe we'll see in the next chapter the first preparations of training. And I'm also interested in one thing: who gave an information about Rukia in K-town? If she was the only one allocated to K-town, who was a ,,traitor"?If I'm wrong, please correct me:)

rtyd1
April 20, 2008, 01:27 PM
I think we'll see like a 5 year time jump in the next chapter or 2. The way Urahara said that thing about if he died Mayuri would become the head, gives another character the motive to snitch about the gigai getting Urahara exiled.

A thing I don't understand about the Urahara being exiled thing is. If he were exiled then why would Yoruichi have to assist with his "escape" and why would she be in trouble with helping him leave SS. It's a bit weird I think.

Wasn't Urahara imprisoned somewhere like the Maggots Nest and Yoruichi broke him out and left SS with him

Donnie_D
April 20, 2008, 02:34 PM
What's your source on that? I didn't think that we'd been told anything about why Uruhara left.

Tsukisama
April 20, 2008, 03:32 PM
I think we'll see like a 5 year time jump in the next chapter or 2. The way Urahara said that thing about if he died Mayuri would become the head, gives another character the motive to snitch about the gigai getting Urahara exiled.

A thing I don't understand about the Urahara being exiled thing is. If he were exiled then why would Yoruichi have to assist with his "escape" and why would she be in trouble with helping him leave SS. It's a bit weird I think.

I agree on the time elapse and Kurotsuchi's shady charcter. It seems entirely possible that Mayuri could have betrayed Urahara somewhere down the line to usurp his position. Urahara's statement shows that he knows that Mayuri would have no qualms about doing such a thing.

We still don't know the circumstances behind Urahara's departure from SS. Perhaps he needed some sort of assistance in escaping like if they were going to lock him away in special detention or something else. By the end of the gaiden, I hope that this will be shown (and I pretty much expect that it will given the amount of attention on Urahara's past that the gaiden has had so far).

As for Yoruichi being in trouble, I don't think that she is. Apparently, everyone thought she was dead instead of her just simply running away; so, she was likely decommissioned. If that is the case, then she has already in effect been declared inactive from service and she just is not a member of SS anymore. Plus, by the time she came back onto the scene during the SS arc, there were bigger fish to fry with Aizen's treachery that her apparently faking her own death has done been deemed a big enough issue at this point.


So there're 2 ways to become a Vaizard/Arrancar: first is Hoygoku, the second one is the training. Maybe Urahara developed Hoygoku instead of training. It was taking too much time and was very dangerous. And hoygoku can efface the differences between Shinigami and hollow in moment - that said Aizen. So now we know why Hyiori knew all about training - she was Urahara's vice captain and had to know everything about his experiments. Maybe we'll see in the next chapter the first preparations of training. And I'm also interested in one thing: who gave an information about Rukia in K-town? If she was the only one allocated to K-town, who was a ,,traitor"?If I'm wrong, please correct me:)

I don't think that Rukia being chosen as the Hougyoku's vessel was anything more than coincidence. Rukia was assigned to a mission in Karakura, and Urahara approached her. He probably just sensed her presence and that's how he found her. For the most part, shinigami probably don't have to worry about being found out on their missions by the locals, because usually the locals are just spiritually unware humans. Rukia probably was not completely aware of who Urahara was at the time, and he managed to convince her somehow to use his gigai and implanted the Hougyoku inside her. No traitor needed.


What's your source on that? I didn't think that we'd been told anything about why Uruhara left.

We have not yet been given much information on Urahara's exile; so, rtyd1's statement is just speculation, but the "special detention" idea does seem like a good theory for what SS might decide to do with Urahara given his dangerous experiments.

Inkovic
April 20, 2008, 03:57 PM
You have to keep in mind that it was really Aizen who orchestrated Rukia being executed for her minor crime. Everyone in SS commented on how they thought that the sentence was overly harsh.

True, but I'm feel that Aizen betraying Soul Society was more of a way for Ichigo and co to escape Soul Society unharmed and make new friends along the way *facepalm*

I just think that the author has diverted from his original vision of the manga and transplanted the original character traits of his intended main characters (which would've been Ichigo's school friends) into Shinigamis.

I mean they made Byakuya seem comical! That's like...a crime against nature:blink

Tsukisama
April 20, 2008, 04:18 PM
True, but I'm feel that Aizen betraying Soul Society was more of a way for Ichigo and co to escape Soul Society unharmed and make new friends along the way *facepalm*

I just think that the author has diverted from his original vision of the manga and transplanted the original character traits of his intended main characters (which would've been Ichigo's school friends) into Shinigamis.

I mean they made Byakuya seem comical! That's like...a crime against nature:blink

Well, I think that Kubo planned for Ichigo to make friends in SS from the beginning. It was a necessary consequence. Obviously, Ichigo could not bring all of his friends from his life before being involved in shinigami affairs along with him. Some of Ichigo's schoolmates introduced in the beginning were probably just introduced to make Ichigo's life seem more well-rounded. Ichigo could have been introduced as someone completely without friends (or maybe just knowing the people who would continue on with him on his adventures like Chad, Orihime, and Uryuu) and then gain friends once he becomes a shinigami, but that would have changed our initial perceptions of him.

Byakuya being shown as less mature when he was younger is a good thing in my opinion. If he acted the way he is now all of his life, he would be a static character, devoid of any signs of development. Changes in personality, character development, these things are typically good things for characters, as they add new dimensions to the character, and, in this particular case, make the character more relatable.

turbo_sc
April 20, 2008, 06:45 PM
What if Urahara and Yuroichi were actually promoted to the Royal Guard and are working covertly under Isshin? It seems that the former 12th guard captain just up and left from the first chapter of the gaiden arc, so why can't that have happend to Urahara and Yuroichi? Even as a VC, Aizen was surprized at the existance of the RG. What if the RG was actually aware of Aizen's intentions from the beginning and to elude suspicion, set up circumstances where Urahara and Yuroichi are no longer operating under the rules of SS and at the same time make it seem that they are no longer a threat to Aizen?

rtyd1
April 20, 2008, 08:51 PM
So there're 2 ways to become a Vaizard/Arrancar: first is Hoygoku, the second one is the training. Maybe Urahara developed Hoygoku instead of training. It was taking too much time and was very dangerous. And hoygoku can efface the differences between Shinigami and hollow in moment - that said Aizen.

This cant be confirmed yet, my theory is Ichigo, Chad and Orihime's additional powers came from their exposure to Rukia when the hougyoku was "sealed" inside of her

segua
April 20, 2008, 09:37 PM
Wasn't it said that those expose to Ichigo's presence for quite awhile after obtaining shinigami powers started to develop their own powers or their own spiritual powers started manifesting?

fistsofrage
April 21, 2008, 12:13 AM
Yeah you're right they awakened because of they're prolonged interaction with ichigo.

patedecarne
April 21, 2008, 12:13 AM
Yes, in the manga was stated that the strong influence could change their powers, but about the vaizard's method, still is unclear to us the true reasons. maybe could be even a thir method that still we don't know, and this unknown method could be the responsible by Shinji and co...

Umbra Wolf
April 21, 2008, 06:34 AM
Well, our main problem is that we don't know how the vaizard got their powers and that includes Ichigo.
Ichigo might got his vaizard power also because of the Hoygoku that was hidden in Ruika's gigai. If his bare presence is enough to trigger Chad's spiritual powers than this exposure might be sufficient to trigger a vaizard transforming process ( and Ichigo's transformations was a very slow process throughout the whole story). Additionally we don't know what exactly happened during Urahara's Shinigami training before the SS arc. Something might went wrong there, too. Don't forget that Ichigo nearly became a Hollow during this training session.

So the only vaizard whose transformation we've witnessed is Ichigo and probably Ichigo's way might be an exception and not the average transformation. Though it seems that the procedure with Ichigo's Hollow training is the usual way.

Neg
April 21, 2008, 07:56 AM
Yes, in the manga was stated that the strong influence could change their powers, but about the vaizard's method, still is unclear to us the true reasons. maybe could be even a thir method that still we don't know, and this unknown method could be the responsible by Shinji and co...

I agree that its prob a new method.. it bothers me that aizen, gin and tousen don't seem to be vizard-ified at all... (i could be wrong because we haven't seen them in a battle yet) but it just supports the theory that the hougyoku can only fuse hollow with shinigami powers and not the other way around.

also... ichigo's vizardification method required his soul to seperated from his body i.e. having that chain thing on his chest... thus straddling him between becoming a hollow and shinigami.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/61/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/61/14/
I don't see how this can apply to shinji and co since they are already pure shinigami.
it would be an interesting twist if the vizard process was applied to all captains and vc... including unohana, shunsui, ukitake, aizen... but they managed to keep their hollow side under control from the start whereas shinji and co were too weak to do so and were therefore exiled in fear of them destroying SS. would be cool for the oldies to pull on masks and hitsugaya, komamura etc... going WTF!?

Travis
April 21, 2008, 08:30 AM
When did Yoruichi fake her death? When she meets Soi Fong in their fight, Soi Fong talks about how she was in trouble or a criminal or something, for helping Urahara flee SS. I guess it's possible when people are exiled, it's to the Maggot's Nest, but it's a little strange I think. When you think exiled from SS, you think kicked out from the whole of it. Imprisonment would be something else.

rtyd1
April 21, 2008, 08:38 AM
also... ichigo's vizardification method required his soul to seperated from his body i.e. having that chain thing on his chest... thus straddling him between becoming a hollow and shinigami.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/61/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/61/14/
I don't see how this can apply to shinji and co since they are already pure shinigami.
it would be an interesting twist if the vizard process was applied to all captains and vc... including unohana, shunsui, ukitake, aizen... but they managed to keep their hollow side under control from the start whereas shinji and co were too weak to do so and were therefore exiled in fear of them destroying SS. would be cool for the oldies to pull on masks and hitsugaya, komamura etc... going WTF!?

It is possible to have your shinigami power sealed by an attack, Byakuya and
Ishida have done it. So Shinji and co could yet lose their powers.
If the interesting twist you mention above happens then i will stop reading Bleach, its just too much to have everyone becoming a hybrid

Tsukisama
April 21, 2008, 08:38 AM
When did Yoruichi fake her death? When she meets Soi Fong in their fight, Soi Fong talks about how she was in trouble or a criminal or something, for helping Urahara flee SS. I guess it's possible when people are exiled, it's to the Maggot's Nest, but it's a little strange I think. When you think exiled from SS, you think kicked out from the whole of it. Imprisonment would be something else.

When Yoruichi first shows up to take Ichigo back for training, Byakuya says that everyone thought that she was dead. Soi Fon does not say anything about Yoruichi helping Urahara flee SS. She calls Yoruichi a criminal for aiding the ryoka.

Travis
April 21, 2008, 09:19 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/159/15/

In my righteousness, I cite this chapter and page.

Tsukisama
April 21, 2008, 10:30 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/159/15/

In my righteousness, I cite this chapter and page.

I see. I stand corrected. Thank you for that. I suppose then that Byakuya and the rest of SS just assumed that she was dead because she had been off of the radar for so long.

Neg
April 21, 2008, 10:43 AM
It is possible to have your shinigami power sealed by an attack, Byakuya and
Ishida have done it. So Shinji and co could yet lose their powers.


but they would just be empty spirits living in rukongai then. they would still be spirits, just without shinigami powers.

to make the illustration clearer - when ichigo didn't have his shinigami powers and urahara used his cane to forcefully seperate his soul, there was a chain linking to his body. just like inoue at the very start.
but all shinigami are just using gigai as their 'human' bodies... they wouldn't have any chain linking them to a body.

no chain = no vizardification

Volda
April 21, 2008, 02:04 PM
What if the gigai that urahara made takes away their shinigami powers, thus binding them to a body, chain and all. Just so it can be broken so that they can go thru the same process that ichigo did.

koruma
April 21, 2008, 02:56 PM
What if the gigai that urahara made takes away their shinigami powers, thus binding them to a body, chain and all. Just so it can be broken so that they can go thru the same process that ichigo did.

Don't think so. Ichigo didn't have any control about that situation. We can't be sure that Ichigo gained more powers throw that process or even that the Hollow came from there(even though it looks like he did, for me). Btw that process is dangerous since Ichigo almost became a Hollow with zero awareness

that1kid
April 21, 2008, 02:56 PM
I'm confused, where does all this that chain = process to becoming a vizard stuff come in at. As far as I know there has been nothing to link the two together. You become a hollow when your chain corrodes entirley. If your already a shinigami then you wouldn't have a chain linking you to a body. And if you remember back to when ichigo was training with the vizards he went into a full hollow form but there was no chain involved and nowhere in that training was there a chain involved. So where is everyone coming up with this chain = vizardification at. Seems like a pretty weak theory to me.

lexx
April 21, 2008, 03:07 PM
When Ichigo regained his shinigami powers, he was a human in soul form, thus he was connected to his body by the chain. The chain was cut by Tessai at which point Ichigo's human soul started degrading into a hollow. The chain was fully gone & the hollow's birth process started before Ichigo managed to find the Shinigami powers within. Explanation enough?

GPZrag
April 21, 2008, 03:44 PM
When Ichigo regained his shinigami powers, he was a human in soul form, thus he was connected to his body by the chain. The chain was cut by Tessai at which point Ichigo's human soul started degrading into a hollow. The chain was fully gone & the hollow's birth process started before Ichigo managed to find the Shinigami powers within. Explanation enough?
That is correct, however It was supossed that Ichigo managed to "save" his soul from transforming into hollow and came back as a Shinigami however it was never explained why "Zangetsu" used his Hollow to train him... anyways I AM more inclined to believe that "only" certain Shinigamis experienced this anomalies thus they had inner hollow powers sleeping until they achieved a certain amount of reiatsu :) (such as BANKAI)

KyanWan
April 21, 2008, 03:49 PM
That is correct, however It was supossed that Ichigo managed to "save" his soul from transforming into hollow and came back as a Shinigami however it was never explained why "Zangetsu" used his Hollow to train him... anyways I AM more inclined to believe that "only" certain Shinigamis experienced this anomalies thus they had inner hollow powers sleeping until they achieved a certain amount of reiatsu :) (such as BANKAI)

Now, something comes to my mind - couple of things.

1- I, for some reason, recall Hollow Ichigo saying "I am Zangetsu". Verification? (I've been WRONG before. I have no idea where I saw this - but - it's around that king-horse thing / vaizard/hollow suppression training). I think Zangetsu was created by his hollow.

2- Where did Zangetsu come from? Is Ichigo's true Zanpaktou like an Arrancar zanpaktou? (????) - Zangetsu's real form sort of appeared AFTER he turned into a hollow. That big Buster Sword looking thing he originally had - was just ... well, a big manifestation of his reiatsu, right?

segua
April 21, 2008, 04:22 PM
No, the Hollow Ichigo did say that he was Zangetsu during the Vizard training. But later one when Ichigo asked the Hollow where was the real Zangetsu, the Hollow replied that Zangetsu and himself comprised of Ichigo's spiritual power. So Zangetsu was only half of it. So to call upon the other half of the power to help train Ichigo makes sense.

Check out Bleach Chapter 218 for your answers. Start here if you will: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/08/

that1kid
April 21, 2008, 10:01 PM
When Ichigo regained his shinigami powers, he was a human in soul form, thus he was connected to his body by the chain. The chain was cut by Tessai at which point Ichigo's human soul started degrading into a hollow. The chain was fully gone & the hollow's birth process started before Ichigo managed to find the Shinigami powers within. Explanation enough?

I understand that pefectly well but there were quite a few people saying the there was some correlation between that and ichigo having a vaizard from. What i'm saying is that thus for there has been no evidence to support this theory really. It's all just based on heresay and conjectures. Plus if all it took to turn someone into a vaizard was infact that, then for what purpose would the hougokyou have been created, and there would have been no real reason for aizen to hatch this entire plot if it was infact that easy.


Now, something comes to my mind - couple of things.

1- I, for some reason, recall Hollow Ichigo saying "I am Zangetsu". Verification? (I've been WRONG before. I have no idea where I saw this - but - it's around that king-horse thing / vaizard/hollow suppression training). I think Zangetsu was created by his hollow.

2- Where did Zangetsu come from? Is Ichigo's true Zanpaktou like an Arrancar zanpaktou? (????) - Zangetsu's real form sort of appeared AFTER he turned into a hollow. That big Buster Sword looking thing he originally had - was just ... well, a big manifestation of his reiatsu, right?

In regards to your second note here yes Zangetsu is the name of ichigo's zanpaktou. The first sword he had(the buster sword lookin one) was a manifestation of the shinigami powers that he took from rukia. That's why he was able to regain shinigami status after his first fight with byakuya. Urahara very plainly stated that he hadn't been using his shinigami powers at first he was using the ones given to him by Rukia.


That is correct, however It was supossed that Ichigo managed to "save" his soul from transforming into hollow and came back as a Shinigami however it was never explained why "Zangetsu" used his Hollow to train him... anyways I AM more inclined to believe that "only" certain Shinigamis experienced this anomalies thus they had inner hollow powers sleeping until they achieved a certain amount of reiatsu (such as BANKAI)


I am inclined to agree with you on this one. It seems to me that if it were infact possible for every shinigami to obtain vaizard power then soul society would have put forth more research and effort into doing so. They've known about the existence of Vasto Lorde's for some time. And it's said that not even the captains can compare to them. If there was a way to increse the power of all captains in such way then it seems that SS would have done so as to avoid potentially being decimated by the Vasto Lordes

lmnde
April 21, 2008, 10:15 PM
i don't know if this was mentioned before or not..

but does anyone else notice the striking resemblance between byakuya's grandpa and the grandpa in the espada?

haha..

KyanWan
April 22, 2008, 12:07 AM
No, the Hollow Ichigo did say that he was Zangetsu during the Vizard training. But later one when Ichigo asked the Hollow where was the real Zangetsu, the Hollow replied that Zangetsu and himself comprised of Ichigo's spiritual power. So Zangetsu was only half of it. So to call upon the other half of the power to help train Ichigo makes sense.

Check out Bleach Chapter 218 for your answers. Start here if you will: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/08/

To me - it sounds like the whole time, the hollow within was messing with Ichigo's head - making him think that Zangetsu is NOT the hollow - but - his zanpaktou only.

Follow me there? There's -1- not -2- is what I think.

When in fact, the hollow IS everything - that's how I took his "I AM ZANGETSU!". In other words, there IS no half, just the hollow. (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/18/) Trying to fool Ichigo that he was resisting the hollow when he fought alongside "old man Zangetsu" [when in fact he was just fighting with the hollow the entire time].

So, this is where I'm getting that his Zanpaktou - since Ichigo was on the path to becoming a full fledged hollow - may be more or less an Arrancar zanpaktou (*hollow-form) in the hands of a "shinigami".

---

Just another note here.

When Ulquiorra was commenting on Ichigo's strength - when his hollow was coming out on his own -

"at times he's trash ... at other times he exceeds my own power"

If the hollow is *half* of Ichigo's potential ( like, zangetsu = 1/2 , hollow = 1/2 ) then *why* does he get exponentially stronger when the hollow comes out? Further reason that I say there is only the hollow - the hollow *is* zangetsu (just like he said himself.) If there's *2* in there, then he's just an all-out monster - if he's mastering something that's just as strong as that hollow - then he should ALREADY be able to defeat Ulquiorra by pushing the hollow aside - but - he's not ready. Unless ... maybe ... he's got the last senzu bean (burrito ...lol).

---

Ugh ... don't tell me ... reading over that again, it sounds like Ichigo's some kind of schizo-multiple personality fighting with himself there.

Someone break out the straight-jacket ... lol.

PredakingD78
April 22, 2008, 01:52 AM
Zangetsu, imo is best described as a coin. While a dime has two sides and is worh .10 cents, if you cut the dime in half you don't get two 5 cents pieces. You just end up with nothing but 2 worthless pieces of metal.

That what I assume seperates Ichigo from the vizards. Shinji, Love, Rose and company are trained Shinigami whom either achieved Shikai or Bankai by manifesting their Zakpanto. However, events led to them obtaining inner hollows. I'm inclined to believe that the hollow(s) didn't replace their Zakpanto's spirit(s), thus they can coexist within said Vizard. That said, it might be possible for the Inner Hollow to be destroyed resulting in a Vizard returning back to normal.

Ichigo wouldn't apply as his power comes from 1 source not (possibly)two as the vizards. They are more like a loaf of bread. Two end, but cut in half you still have viable pieces of bread

segua
April 22, 2008, 02:23 AM
To me - it sounds like the whole time, the hollow within was messing with Ichigo's head - making him think that Zangetsu is NOT the hollow - but - his zanpaktou only.

Follow me there? There's -1- not -2- is what I think.

When in fact, the hollow IS everything - that's how I took his "I AM ZANGETSU!". In other words, there IS no half, just the hollow. (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/218/18/) Trying to fool Ichigo that he was resisting the hollow when he fought alongside "old man Zangetsu" [when in fact he was just fighting with the hollow the entire time].

So, this is where I'm getting that his Zanpaktou - since Ichigo was on the path to becoming a full fledged hollow - may be more or less an Arrancar zanpaktou (*hollow-form) in the hands of a "shinigami".

---

Just another note here.

When Ulquiorra was commenting on Ichigo's strength - when his hollow was coming out on his own -

"at times he's trash ... at other times he exceeds my own power"

If the hollow is *half* of Ichigo's potential ( like, zangetsu = 1/2 , hollow = 1/2 ) then *why* does he get exponentially stronger when the hollow comes out? Further reason that I say there is only the hollow - the hollow *is* zangetsu (just like he said himself.) If there's *2* in there, then he's just an all-out monster - if he's mastering something that's just as strong as that hollow - then he should ALREADY be able to defeat Ulquiorra by pushing the hollow aside - but - he's not ready. Unless ... maybe ... he's got the last senzu bean (burrito ...lol).

---

Ugh ... don't tell me ... reading over that again, it sounds like Ichigo's some kind of schizo-multiple personality fighting with himself there.

Someone break out the straight-jacket ... lol.

Makes sense to me. Though I think that Zangetsu will just lend his strength to either one where as the Hollow is the more conscientious of the other half of power that tries to swallow Ichigo. So you got one power that supports and the other that just overwhelms and devours.

ElNino11922
April 22, 2008, 06:15 AM
hmm i'm pretty sure that zangetsu and ogihci (hollow) are two sides of the same coin, the two of them as one make up ichigo's spiritual power, as was suggested.. think of it as a power balance thing, as one side gains strength the other must recede, initially zangetsu was dominant, now the hollow is. ie formally 60/40 to zangetsu now 40/60 to hollow. therefore the hollow manifests.
[hr]

That what I assume seperates Ichigo from the vizards. Shinji, Love, Rose and company are trained Shinigami whom either achieved Shikai or Bankai by manifesting their Zakpanto. However, events led to them obtaining inner hollows. I'm inclined to believe that the hollow(s) didn't replace their Zakpanto's spirit(s), thus they can coexist within said Vizard. That said, it might be possible for the Inner Hollow to be destroyed resulting in a Vizard returning back to normal.

Ichigo wouldn't apply as his power comes from 1 source not (possibly)two as the vizards. They are more like a loaf of bread. Two end, but cut in half you still have viable pieces of bread

mm not neccessarily, if u think bout it ichigo's hollow did'nt rlly manifest til after he learned bankai, i think all the hougyoko does is break down barriers to powers that already exist within the individual, hence from a single source, just that it was'nt accessible before the hougyoko so it never manifest. ichigo's different in that he never had that barrier.

patedecarne
April 22, 2008, 07:01 AM
Will be a chapter next week or will be Golden week? I don't know how these things work in Japan, but apparently next week Naruto won't be up, And I'm afraid the same comes to happen with Bleach...

Wait 2 weeks for the -103 will be really difficult, because the upcoming chapters seems the be the climax of the gaiden...

drakend
April 22, 2008, 10:23 AM
Guys in the manga has been stated that Shirosaki is Zangetsu with the hollow side in control, so this means that Zangetsu is Shirosaki with the shinigami side in control. Now there is a nice question: why didn't Zangetsu try to take control of Ichigo? Because he's a good and nice and he wouldn't ever try something like that. Do you believe this? I don't: I have the impression that Zangetsu before and then Shirosaki only trained Ichigo, not really wanting to take control. Especially Shirosaki: I think he only wanted to put Ichigo into a pinch in order to make him find the will to fight thus mastering the hollow powers. I think Ichigo s harnessing HALF of his real power (the shinigami one) efficiently only now (he can mantain bankai without problems now, almost as if it was shikai) and started to use a ludicrous fraction of his hollow powers. Think of his hollow powers as a collection of weapons: now Ichigo is using the water gun, but the most powerful one is the nuke... :D

ShinigamiAkuma
April 22, 2008, 11:26 AM
This is how I see it, when you're a soul you obtain BOTH hollow AND shinigami powers. The good souls only have access to the shinigami powers (SS).... and the bad souls only access to hollow powers (HM). So in a sense, every soul contains BOTH powers tho only inaccessible due to the barriers. Now ichigo's shinigami ressurection training went wrong, the hollow AND shinigami powers came loose, thus may possibly automatically dissolve the barrier, hence he has access to both hollow and shinigami powers. It comes to no surprise if Urahara himself used some techniques that caused ichigo to have both powers released.

So the way I see it is, either both good and bad souls have both powers embedded in them... and through hyogoku vaizards and arrancar have access to them. The bottom line is, Hichigo and Zangetsu are both on the same side of the coin.

ShaunMati1
April 22, 2008, 11:27 AM
Will be a chapter next week or will be Golden week? I don't know how these things work in Japan, but apparently next week Naruto won't be up, And I'm afraid the same comes to happen with Bleach...

Wait 2 weeks for the -103 will be really difficult, because the upcoming chapters seems the be the climax of the gaiden...

Oh so you are saying that we will still get -104 this week but we will have to wait an extra week for -103. That kinda sucks, i was happy for a while that the manga was being consistent with the releases. Especially after that month or month and a half in december when im positive we waited 4 weeks for just one chapter and waited a few more weeks for another. So i guess waiting an extra week wont be so bad, but ur right the Gaiden looked like it definitely is reaching its climax.

Deinonychus
April 22, 2008, 11:52 AM
Now ichigo's shinigami ressurection training went wrong, the hollow AND shinigami powers came loose, thus may possibly automatically dissolve the barrier, hence he has access to both hollow and shinigami powers. It comes to no surprise if Urahara himself used some techniques that caused ichigo to have both powers released.

All you said makes sense. I'm just not convinced that Ichigo's shinigami ressurection training went wrong. We could also speculate that the hollow awakening was part of Urahara's plan all along. Perhaps we'll see something regarding this when we discover how the vaizards were created.

KyanWan
April 22, 2008, 01:41 PM
Guys in the manga has been stated that Shirosaki is Zangetsu with the hollow side in control, so this means that Zangetsu is Shirosaki with the shinigami side in control. Now there is a nice question: why didn't Zangetsu try to take control of Ichigo? Because he's a good and nice and he wouldn't ever try something like that. Do you believe this? I don't: I have the impression that Zangetsu before and then Shirosaki only trained Ichigo, not really wanting to take control. Especially Shirosaki: I think he only wanted to put Ichigo into a pinch in order to make him find the will to fight thus mastering the hollow powers. I think Ichigo s harnessing HALF of his real power (the shinigami one) efficiently only now (he can mantain bankai without problems now, almost as if it was shikai) and started to use a ludicrous fraction of his hollow powers. Think of his hollow powers as a collection of weapons: now Ichigo is using the water gun, but the most powerful one is the nuke... :D

I think the coin thing is a great explanation of the situation here. BUT - I do think that the hollow (Shirosaki ;) I woulda used the name but ... sorry, forgot it) is the *real* power behind the whole Ichigo thing. Zangetsu is just a face that he puts on to make Ichigo comfortable with the whole thing, and to - MAYBE - "tailor" Ichigo to be a better vessel for his eventual use. IMO - it's not that he's using *half* of his real power, but what Shirosaki thinks he's capable of using /OR/ maybe his inert power (which seems to be very vast on its own.)

I'd like to point out one more thing -

Notice how after the whole SS thing - Ichigo became more "synced" with Zangetsu - and the hollow (Shirosaki) started getting stronger. If "Zangetsu" was the "good" part of shirosaki - then WHY would Shirosaki's (the "evil" half) start getting stronger control of Ichigo?

Because there's only one part - and it's using "two faces".

Also - when he got Bankai - wasn't Shirosaki standing alongside Zangetsu?

So -IMO- the hollow/Shirosaki is creating Zangetsu as a person to fool Ichigo.

There's another thing that comes to mind - when Ichigo on his own gets into trouble, Shirosaki's always come through with a massive boost to defeat *any* enemy that's stepped into his way. I recall a comment on that - something in the nature of "we've got to keep him alive - because he is us" - bleh - I forget where the hell it was. Either during the Kenpachi/Byakuya fight OR during Bankai training... damn ... but that line there, that makes me think the whole zanpaktou - isn't really a zanpaktou at all - but more of a hollow power. Even his bankai - it's not the same as all the other shinigami.

Think about it for a second -

He gets exponentially stronger & faster. Think of other shinigami -

Byakuya - his sword transforms into a million blades
Komanura - the giant
Hitsugaya - ice dragon
Ikkaku - giant blades with beast-power
Mayuri - that big old caterpillar baby thing

and so on.

Remember Byakuya's comment? "That's not a Bankai..."

IMO - Ichigo's more hollow than shinigami.

jetliguy
April 22, 2008, 02:10 PM
My two cents:

I always thought Ichigo was the perfect vizard, if you want a label, because he became a shinigami and hollow at the same time. Remember, he finally pulled out Zengetsu at about the moment Team Urahara was ready to blast him away for turning into a hollow.

I think this is why Aizen finds him interesting - Ichigo has already obtained access to what Aizen is trying to access - shinigami and hollow powers simultaneously. Where as Aizen needs the hougokyu to "dissolve the barrier," Ichigo already bypassed it. Unfortunately, Ichigo does not have enough experience or training yet to use his power to its full potential - i.e. no kidou, no exploration of any other abilities of his bankai (yes, i too am sick of gen. tenshou ALL the time), etc.

lexx
April 22, 2008, 02:32 PM
My GOD, kids, we've had this conversation a million freaking times.

The power of Ichigo's soul manifests & appears to Ichigo as a living being. His soul has a mix of powers, from both its death god possibility and its hollow possibility. You can imagine it as two sides of the same coin but the metaphor doesn't carry very far. The appearance of his soul's power is determined by which source of power is stronger at the moment.

STOP FREAKING ANALYZING SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN EXPLAINED FULLY.

just1n time
April 22, 2008, 02:34 PM
My two cents:
no kidou, no exploration of any other abilities of his bankai (yes, i too am sick of gen. tenshou ALL the time), etc.

i totally agree!!

kat_at_heart
April 22, 2008, 03:13 PM
My GOD, kids, we've had this conversation a million freaking times.

The power of Ichigo's soul manifests & appears to Ichigo as a living being. His soul has a mix of powers, from both its death god possibility and its hollow possibility. You can imagine it as two sides of the same coin but the metaphor doesn't carry very far. The appearance of his soul's power is determined by which source of power is stronger at the moment.

STOP FREAKING ANALYZING SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN EXPLAINED FULLY.

well said

drakend
April 22, 2008, 03:38 PM
@Kyanwan
I don't think Zangetsu is just a puppet used by Shirosaki: in the manga and in the anime it has been stated very clearly they're the very same entity so this shouldn't be put in doubt anymore. When we saw Shirosaki last time (during Vaizard training) he appeared because he was the stronger side at that moment, but Zangetsu is always there because he is the shinigami version of Shirosaki and Shirosaki is the hollow version of Zangetsu. Ichigo is the king who decides who rules within his spiritual world. You then say Zangetsu is a strange zanpaktou: it is indeed. I think it's because it isn't a mere shinigami zanpaktou, but an hybrid one.

rtyd1
April 22, 2008, 04:28 PM
@Kyanwan
but Zangetsu is always there because he is the shinigami version of Shirosaki and Shirosaki is the hollow version of Zangetsu.

If Shirosaki were the hollow version of Zangetsu wouldnt he look like Zangetsu then an be called by members on this forum Shirogetsu, He's the hollow manifestaion of Ichigo

Neuroff
April 22, 2008, 04:34 PM
A translation issue came up in the M7 ch -105 release thread.


translations seems to be different from that of the binktopia relaease, where kaien isn't a vice captain yet, but in this one he is already a vc.

cnet:
15
Kaien: I'll say this one more time... // I have no intention of serving as your Lieutenant.
Ukitake: Don't say it one more time... / ...You'll just disappoint me all over again...
Kaien: I've told you, there are any number of people more worthy of promotion like that than me.

17
Kaien: I guess this puts me one step further away from that lieutenant position...
Ukitake: You don't have to sound quite so happy about it...

M7:
15
Kaien: I'll say it again, but I'm a vice-captain; that's not something I can do.
Ukitake: No need to repeat yourself... are you sure you won't regret it?
Kaien: I already told them there are plenty of people who ought to become captains before I do.

17
Kaien: Guess that means I'll be a vice-captain even longer...
Ukitake: Don't say that so happily...

I would think cnet is correct because his translation also matches the spoilers. I'm hoping M7 is wrong, because otherwise it would mean that Kaien had bankai and was captain level this entire time. Which would mean that a captain-level shinigami lost to that trash hollow, that newly captain-level hollow lost to the trash Aaroniero without his ability, Rukia didn't know Kaien had bankai, and that Aaroniero didn't even use bankai against Rukia.

Can anyone who knows Japanese point out which translation is correct?

drakend
April 22, 2008, 04:59 PM
If Shirosaki were the hollow version of Zangetsu wouldnt he look like Zangetsu then an be called by members on this forum Shirogetsu, He's the hollow manifestaion of Ichigo
Ok can you rephrase this thing? I didn't understand a thing.

Zan2pacto
April 22, 2008, 05:04 PM
All you said makes sense. I'm just not convinced that Ichigo's shinigami ressurection training went wrong. We could also speculate that the hollow awakening was part of Urahara's plan all along. Perhaps we'll see something regarding this when we discover how the vaizards were created.

have we discussed the possibility that Rukia used the HY on Ichigo when she stabbed him with her sword in ep. 1? She had the HY in her spirit, and she put part of her spirit into Ichigo (oh crap i put too much o n03s). Three possibilities here.

1.) meaningless
2.) she mistakenly transferred part of her soul with the HY and broke down the barriers on ichigo, therefore when he took his powers back he got both hollow and shinigami powers.
3.) (here's the real catcher) Embedding the HY in a soul and stabbing somone else with your Zanpakutou is the illegal spell used by the Viazard!

~~discuss

Sk3tch
April 22, 2008, 05:26 PM
have we discussed the possibility that Rukia used the HY on Ichigo when she stabbed him with her sword in ep. 1? She had the HY in her spirit, and she put part of her spirit into Ichigo (oh crap i put too much o n03s). Three possibilities here.

1.) meaningless
2.) she mistakenly transferred part of her soul with the HY and broke down the barriers on ichigo, therefore when he took his powers back he got both hollow and shinigami powers.
3.) (here's the real catcher) Embedding the HY in a soul and stabbing somone else with your Zanpakutou is the illegal spell used by the Viazard!

~~discuss

The Hougyoku (or however you spell it) came with the gigai given to Rukia by Urahara AFTER she had given Ichigo her shinigami powers.

rtyd1
April 22, 2008, 05:28 PM
have we discussed the possibility that Rukia used the HY on Ichigo when she stabbed him with her sword in ep. 1? She had the HY in her spirit, and she put part of her spirit into Ichigo (oh crap i put too much o n03s).

Rukia didnt have the HK when she stabbed Ichi to give him shingami powers, Urahara gave her the artificial gigai with HK after that

segua
April 22, 2008, 05:43 PM
Also, it was embedded into Rukia so that means that when Rukia went to Urahara, he must
've placed her into a sleep to use that technique that Aizen used to retrieve the Hoogyoku from Rukia.

rtyd1
April 22, 2008, 05:49 PM
Also, it was embedded into Rukia so that means that when Rukia went to Urahara, he must
've placed her into a sleep to use that technique that Aizen used to retrieve the Hoogyoku from Rukia.

Wasnt the Hougyoku in the gigai urahara gave her already

Bigfish
April 22, 2008, 06:07 PM
I thought they said the Hyougyoku was hidden in a child in Rokungei some years ago?

rtyd1
April 22, 2008, 06:13 PM
I thought they said the Hyougyoku was hidden in a child in Rokungei some years ago?

No No and ANOTHER No

Sk3tch
April 22, 2008, 06:26 PM
I thought they said the Hyougyoku was hidden in a child in Rokungei some years ago?

Where did you get that?

rtyd1
April 22, 2008, 06:29 PM
I think Rukia was a child in Rokungei and he got mixed up with timelines

segua
April 22, 2008, 06:45 PM
Wasnt the Hougyoku in the gigai urahara gave her already

If you logically think about it, the gigai can't embed the Hougyoku into Rukia. The gigai only served to hide Rukia from SS or so I think.

rtyd1
April 22, 2008, 06:56 PM
How do you know if the gigai cant embed the Hougyoku into Rukia segua, are you Kubo secretly posting on this board

someguy0830
April 22, 2008, 07:17 PM
There's actually a line in one of the character books covering this. I don't recognize the page, though.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/ccguildenstern/scan112.jpg

死神の限界を破らんとする努力。その唯一の方法とされるのが“死神のホロウ化”だ。愛染を含め多くの物が実験を重ねたが、成功に至った者は唯一、浦原喜介のみ。浦原は死神とホロウの境界を消す“宝玉”を作りだすが、その危険性を悟り存在自体を隠蔽した。選ばれし隠し場所は朽木ルキアの魂魄。歳月が経ち、任務だ現世は降りたルキアは、一護に死神の力を奪われる。これを機に浦原は、特性義骸に霊力拡散作用だルキア快復を阻害。時と共に霊力を奪われてルキアが人間ぬなってしまえば宝玉は完全に隠されるは ずだった。

Supposedly, it more or less says that it was hidden in Rukia several years beforehand, and her posting in the real world is what gave Urahara the chance to hide it. Then again, I'm not a translator, so someone else might want to confirm that.

Relevant Bleach Asylum link: Clicky (http://www.bleachasylum.com/showpost.php?p=169605&postcount=85)

hyn_pride93
April 22, 2008, 07:38 PM
i thought that Rukia already had embeded within her before the whole thing. lol. but i doubt that it was the Hogyoku that gave Ichigo has shinigami powers. but i do think that the Hogyoku gave Ichigo a big power advantage by giving him hollow abilities.

but there is a down side to what i said, Urahara was talking in one of the early episodes about how Ichigo will get his powers. something something something. dadadadaaddaaa. woop di doo. i vaguely remember this but when Ichigo was transforming and obtaining his powers for his shikai form of the zanpaktou... he was transforming into a hollow. he probably already had hollow powers deep down within him, but the hogyoku most likely had something to do with Ichigo obtaining hollow powers.

but anyways... since Rukia already the HY within her without her knowing, then it must be something that she learned in the SS. that a major offense is to transfer your powers to another, esp. a human. it has to be something that you learn because she had no knowing of the HY.

Kastro187420
April 22, 2008, 10:04 PM
The way Urahara put it, Ichigo would either turn into a hollow or a soul reaper. I think everyone has the possibility of becoming either/or. And for Ichigo, his resolve to become a Soul Reaper wasn't complete, and so he was going into the hollow transformation, but at the last moment, he grasped onto his Shinigami side, which overrode his hollow transformation, while not completely getting rid of the hollow inside of him.

And the way Aizen talks, everyone already has a hollow inside of them. The Hougyoku doesn't create an inner hollow, but rather breaks down the barriers that separate the hollow from the soul reaper, allowing them both to gather increased strength.

So I don't believe the Hougyoku was responsible for Ichigo's hollow transformation or powers. I also believe that Urahara put the Orb inside of Rukia AFTER she gave her powers to Ichigo, as thats really the only time he woulda been able to without her knowing (via the Gigai he lent her).

eddy26
April 22, 2008, 11:30 PM
Who cares about Ichigo right now this gaiden is explaining a lot about everyone else. It is great finding out about the Vizard and how all the characters are tying in with each other. Once the story shifts back to the present is the perfect time to guess about Ichigo and his true power. I'm hoping to see the other two vizard finally make their appearances Kubo hasn't revealed their position and squad. Has it ever been revealed how Byakuya's parents died? We are seeing his grandfather but no sign of his parents were they killed before his grandfather?
When Tousen meets up with Aizen is going to be very important especially finding out how Aizen makes Tousen so loyal. I want to see Komamura at least a small appearance because we have seen most of the other captains. It is going to be interesting seeing what exactly went on with the Vizard after they gain their hollow power. Did they end up leaving Soul Society of their own free will or were they kicked out. It is hard to believe that Unohana, Shunsui, and Ukitake would fight against their fellow captain. Shunsui attacking his vice captain would make no sense considering his personality.

KyanWan
April 23, 2008, 01:19 AM
My GOD, kids, we've had this conversation a million freaking times.

The power of Ichigo's soul manifests & appears to Ichigo as a living being. His soul has a mix of powers, from both its death god possibility and its hollow possibility. You can imagine it as two sides of the same coin but the metaphor doesn't carry very far. The appearance of his soul's power is determined by which source of power is stronger at the moment.

STOP FREAKING ANALYZING SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN EXPLAINED FULLY.

What does the supposedly potentially "strongest" vaizard have to do with the origin of the vaizards and the guy responsible for turning him into one? I dunno. Not much, huh?

*cough*

So if Zangetsu and Shirosaki are a manifestation of his power then what's the purpose of him even having a zanpaktou? If Zangetsu is something different then why the hell IS Shirosaki ... zangetsu?

It's not explained fully, IMO, or at least not fully to my liking. If it was, show me where it was, I'll read it and keep my mouth shut & be (un)happy. I read every chapter up to here, haven't seen it, or I missed it.

[ I couldn't have said it worse myself. ]

I'll push it off to the side for now. I have a feeling a lot more will be answered when he fights Ulquiorra.


Who cares about Ichigo right now this gaiden is explaining a lot about everyone else.

Hear hear!

Ichigo's got 2 decades of suck going for himself. Nuff' about him. Bleh, I'm more interested in other characters anyways.

Tsukisama
April 23, 2008, 03:29 AM
Who cares about Ichigo right now this gaiden is explaining a lot about everyone else. It is great finding out about the Vizard and how all the characters are tying in with each other. Once the story shifts back to the present is the perfect time to guess about Ichigo and his true power. I'm hoping to see the other two vizard finally make their appearances Kubo hasn't revealed their position and squad. Has it ever been revealed how Byakuya's parents died? We are seeing his grandfather but no sign of his parents were they killed before his grandfather?
When Tousen meets up with Aizen is going to be very important especially finding out how Aizen makes Tousen so loyal. I want to see Komamura at least a small appearance because we have seen most of the other captains. It is going to be interesting seeing what exactly went on with the Vizard after they gain their hollow power. Did they end up leaving Soul Society of their own free will or were they kicked out. It is hard to believe that Unohana, Shunsui, and Ukitake would fight against their fellow captain. Shunsui attacking his vice captain would make no sense considering his personality.

I agree. Please do not use this thread for any further discussion of the origin of Ichigo's hollow or its relation to Zangetsu. If you want to discuss this further, please create a thread on the topic in Bleach Biblioteca (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51).

I hope that we find out the current status of Byakuya's parents. We have not received any information yet as to how/when they died. A little more information on Byakuya's grandfather would be nice too, as in a given name at least.

Mashiro and Hacchi simply must appear within the next two chapters; otherwise, their introduction into the gaiden is going to seem far too rushed. Tousen might also make an appearance, and if he does, then Komamura will probably make a cameo in that same chapter too.

Whether the vizards left SS of their own free will or they were exiled, I don't think that Unohana, Ukitake, Shunsui, or any of the captains would necessarily have to fight them. If they were exiled, then the vizards probably left without putting up some huge resistance. Why fight to stay in a place you are not wanted, unless you want to try to overthrow those in power, which I don't see the vizards trying to do. The only scenarios in which the other captains would have to fight the vizards are if SS decides that the vizards need to be executed and the vizards may fight with the captains a bit before making an escape or if SS decides to lock the vizards away (like in special detention) and the vizards resist and then flee.
[hr]

A translation issue came up in the M7 ch -105 release thread.



cnet:
15
Kaien: I'll say this one more time... // I have no intention of serving as your Lieutenant.
Ukitake: Don't say it one more time... / ...You'll just disappoint me all over again...
Kaien: I've told you, there are any number of people more worthy of promotion like that than me.

17
Kaien: I guess this puts me one step further away from that lieutenant position...
Ukitake: You don't have to sound quite so happy about it...

M7:
15
Kaien: I'll say it again, but I'm a vice-captain; that's not something I can do.
Ukitake: No need to repeat yourself... are you sure you won't regret it?
Kaien: I already told them there are plenty of people who ought to become captains before I do.

17
Kaien: Guess that means I'll be a vice-captain even longer...
Ukitake: Don't say that so happily...

I would think cnet is correct because his translation also matches the spoilers. I'm hoping M7 is wrong, because otherwise it would mean that Kaien had bankai and was captain level this entire time. Which would mean that a captain-level shinigami lost to that trash hollow, that newly captain-level hollow lost to the trash Aaroniero without his ability, Rukia didn't know Kaien had bankai, and that Aaroniero didn't even use bankai against Rukia.

Can anyone who knows Japanese point out which translation is correct?

An interesting development, but I don't really understand cnet's translation that well. Is he implying that "lieutenant" and "vice-captain" are two separate positions?

KyanWan
April 23, 2008, 03:37 AM
An interesting development, but I don't really understand cnet's translation that well. Is he implying that "lieutenant" and "vice-captain" are two separate positions?

If it's following standard "Military" stuff - there are multiple lieutenants in units - 1st and 2nd's - then there's your commanders, and their yes-man.

You'll often hear junior officers referred to as "lieutenants" - BUT - there's also a senior officer "Lieutenant General" in proper structure (eg: a lieutenant commander. US Structure is: Brigadier General (*), Lieutenant General (**), Major General (***), General (****))

So - we might be looking at a "it's right and it's wrong at the same time" lost-in-translation thing -OR- an ambiguity on Kubo's part.

[edit]

( Small noobish retarded side-Q: There's a chapter this week, right? )

Tsukisama
April 23, 2008, 05:07 AM
If it's following standard "Military" stuff - there are multiple lieutenants in units - 1st and 2nd's - then there's your commanders, and their yes-man.

You'll often hear junior officers referred to as "lieutenants" - BUT - there's also a senior officer "Lieutenant General" in proper structure (eg: a lieutenant commander. US Structure is: Brigadier General (*), Lieutenant General (**), Major General (***), General (****))

So - we might be looking at a "it's right and it's wrong at the same time" lost-in-translation thing -OR- an ambiguity on Kubo's part.

[edit]

( Small noobish retarded side-Q: There's a chapter this week, right? )

I understand from a militaristic standpoint in the real world how that works, but so far in every translation I've seen thus far the word "fukutaichou" has been translated as "lieutenant" and "vice-captain" interchangeably; so for there to be some sort of distinction now just seems strange to me.

Neuroff
April 23, 2008, 05:19 AM
An interesting development, but I don't really understand cnet's translation that well. Is he implying that "lieutenant" and "vice-captain" are two separate positions?
I think it's just choice of translation. In the military, lieutenant is directly under the captain, but fukutaichou is literally vice-captain. It also seems like it's just a mistranslation by M7 after I looked at a thread on BA.

vashdestampede
April 23, 2008, 05:24 AM
I think this gaiden won't explain everything
I think at the 8th / last chapter it'll be the buildup to the events...something dramatic will happen (an explosion or maybe a glance at the newly formed vaizards) and we'll revert all the way back into the present

Then with each respective fight, we see what happened after the climax of the gaiden in little bits and we slowly build together the story on what happened

I'm not sure if gaidens have to be fully enclosed but that's how i see how things are gonna pan out the next 10 chapters or so. I really can't see Kubo wrapping up everything by the 8th chapter without rushing it or having time skips

patedecarne
April 23, 2008, 06:46 AM
I think this gaiden won't explain everything
I think at the 8th / last chapter it'll be the buildup to the events...something dramatic will happen (an explosion or maybe a glance at the newly formed vaizards) and we'll revert all the way back into the present

Then with each respective fight, we see what happened after the climax of the gaiden in little bits and we slowly build together the story on what happened

I'm not sure if gaidens have to be fully enclosed but that's how i see how things are gonna pan out the next 10 chapters or so. I really can't see Kubo wrapping up everything by the 8th chapter without rushing it or having time skips

But the Vaizard's origins and possibly Aizen ascension to power will be enough to explain all the things in the present;

I'm really thinking that 8 chapters won't be enough to fully explain all the events, but only the most importants, and with that, hopefully we'll know if the vaizards are enemies or allies

garaa89
April 23, 2008, 07:04 AM
so what he have four chapter until we get back to the present right. and after this chapter their is going to be golden week.

patedecarne
April 23, 2008, 08:57 AM
Yes, unfortunately, and this time won't be only Sasuke's agony, but Urahara's agony, Luffy's agony, etc...

I guess we need such kind of topics to relax, but the main reason I'm complaining so much is that after chapter -104, I believe, the story wil be in the climax, and a hiatus just now is the worst thing...

Speaking of plot, this weell I'm sure we'll have a huge plot development, because in the past 4 chapters, the scenario was settled for the revelations...

iamsmurf
April 23, 2008, 10:03 AM
im sorry if i go off topic on this but i seem to notice a flaw or u might have notice it already. (correct me if i am wrong) ,http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000146/02.jpg
is tousen a captain already at this time? whos the kenpachi they are talking about in the gaiden? i could not connect the two time frames.. and i really thought zarakiwas the first to obtain the rank captain by slaying a captain..

patedecarne
April 23, 2008, 11:26 AM
Welcome to MangaHelpers, iamsmurf!

Well, since your question is pertinent to the Gaiden, you can discuss this question in this topic! (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25715)

ShaunMati1
April 23, 2008, 11:41 AM
Well as far as the gaiden coming to an end i agree with Patedecarne> it definitely seems it is reaching its climax sometime now. look this whole gaiden arc is committed to urahara and the hougyoku. I think Kubo is just introducing characters such as: byakuya, Soi Fong, Kaien, Ukitake and other people just for our entertainment. Im sure if it was just focusing on one guy for 8 or how ever many chapters it wouldnt be quite as fun. How byakuya's parents died isnt important at all, honestly i dont care much about that. We have already gotten some passed events from bayakuya we dont need more. Im sure and i hope that the next chapters are going to be focused on mayuri and urahara and most likely aizen, shinji, and hioryi.

Kastro187420
April 23, 2008, 11:45 AM
I'd really like if they start with Urahara and Mayuri and how they created the Hougyoku, especially since we're already 4 chapters into it. If its only going to last 8 chapters or so, that doesn't leave much time to explain much unless it all happened in just 1 big incident thats coming up.

I'd love for this to actually last a couple more months, to give Kubo time to really explain things and get the story all filled in.

KyanWan
April 23, 2008, 01:07 PM
I understand from a militaristic standpoint in the real world how that works, but so far in every translation I've seen thus far the word "fukutaichou" has been translated as "lieutenant" and "vice-captain" interchangeably; so for there to be some sort of distinction now just seems strange to me.

Kubo may have thought there's no need to make everything "Formal" and militaristic, even though he sometimes could allude at it.

Hm, there's something else I've heard for "LT" used in Japanese - I think it's with an "Sh" as the first letter ( hey! Gimme credit here, I don't speak/read Japanese. ;) ) - the translated meanings could be incorrect -AS- happens in other languages (Such as Arabic - you can "translate" but it will never be right. )

Tsukisama
April 23, 2008, 03:37 PM
Kubo may have thought there's no need to make everything "Formal" and militaristic, even though he sometimes could allude at it.

Hm, there's something else I've heard for "LT" used in Japanese - I think it's with an "Sh" as the first letter ( hey! Gimme credit here, I don't speak/read Japanese. ;) ) - the translated meanings could be incorrect -AS- happens in other languages (Such as Arabic - you can "translate" but it will never be right. )

I am more inclined to think that it was just a mistranslation as Neuroff has posted:


I think it's just choice of translation. In the military, lieutenant is directly under the captain, but fukutaichou is literally vice-captain. It also seems like it's just a mistranslation by M7 after I looked at a thread on BA.
[hr]

im sorry if i go off topic on this but i seem to notice a flaw or u might have notice it already. (correct me if i am wrong) ,http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/00000146/02.jpg
is tousen a captain already at this time? whos the kenpachi they are talking about in the gaiden? i could not connect the two time frames.. and i really thought zarakiwas the first to obtain the rank captain by slaying a captain..

To quickly answer your question, Tousen is not a captain at the present. The current theory to resolve this is that the "Kenpachi" that is the current 11th division captain is not Kenpachi Zaraki. It is stated in the first chapter of the gaiden that the post of 11th division captain has been traditionally held by the current holder of the title "Kenpachi" for a while now and the current Kenpachi is the 10th Kenpachi.

So, Zaraki could have become a captain after the Kenpachi mentioned in the gaiden and thus there would be no plot hole. :hbunny


i bet it is ichigos father.. just with long hair..

:sbunny It is Zaraki.

wooticus
April 23, 2008, 04:32 PM
im sorry if i go off topic on this but i seem to notice a flaw or u might have notice it already. (correct me if i am wrong) ,http://img37.onemanga.com/mangas/000...0000146/02.jpg
is tousen a captain already at this time? whos the kenpachi they are talking about in the gaiden? i could not connect the two time frames.. and i really thought zarakiwas the first to obtain the rank captain by slaying a captain..

i bet it is ichigos father.. just with long hair..

hyn_pride93
April 23, 2008, 07:57 PM
the person isnt Ichigos dad. its Zaraki. come on now

iamsmurf
April 23, 2008, 09:30 PM
Welcome to MangaHelpers, iamsmurf!

Well, since your question is pertinent to the Gaiden, you can discuss this question in this topic!

:amuse...thnx for the warm welcome patedecarne. ive been reading threads here for years..hehe its time for me to write something..:amuse


to quickly answer your question, Tousen is not a captain at the present. The current theory to resolve this is that the "Kenpachi" that is the current 11th division captain is not Kenpachi Zaraki. It is stated in the first chapter of the gaiden that the post of 11th division captain has been traditionally held by the current holder of the title "Kenpachi" for a while now and the current Kenpachi is the 10th Kenpachi.

So, Zaraki could have become a captain after the Kenpachi mentioned in the gaiden and thus there would be no plot hole.

ah..thnx tsukisama for clearing it up for me.

hyn_pride93
April 24, 2008, 08:22 PM
what if the current KENPACHI is ISSHIN...? omg. that wouldnt be so trippy but it would still be really killaz

Travis
April 24, 2008, 11:11 PM
Well after reading the summary Annie posted, it seems that 10 shinigami were experimented on. I'm betting that the hollow Kensei defeated was one of the shinigami or maybe all of them being hollowized somehow, except the hollow took over, etc.

I have to say the experimenters have to be Aizen, Gin and Tousen, if it's 3 of them.

hyn_pride93
April 24, 2008, 11:39 PM
if tousen was indeed helping out with the hogyoku, then i think that he was the third anfd probably final experimenter to help with the whole hollow thing.

if tousen does show up through a rift then it mustve been a result of his bankai. helping to abduct peeps

Tsukisama
April 25, 2008, 12:11 AM
if tousen was indeed helping out with the hogyoku, then i think that he was the third anfd probably final experimenter to help with the whole hollow thing.

if tousen does show up through a rift then it mustve been a result of his bankai. helping to abduct peeps

I don't think Tousen, Gin, or Aizen actually participated in the creation of the Hougyoku. If anyone helped Urahara make it, it might have been Mayuri and Hiyori.

If Tousen does show up in the gaiden, I don't think that he will have achieved bankai yet. My guess is that he would have recently graduated from the academy and is just a member of 5th division now if he is already in Aizen's clique.