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Gold Knight
June 30, 2006, 01:52 AM
Get 233 here! (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=5406.0)

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/7505/1035vt.gif ... Urahara has arrived!!!

And looks like he's about to spar off with Wonderweiss... what will the others do while Luppi is distracted?

And... Ulquiorra has come for Inoue!

What happens next??? Discuss! Discuss!

pelias
June 30, 2006, 04:12 AM
urahara defeats, wonderweiis, but ichigo faces real trouble against grimjow, coming his fathe in his help, but as hi es unconcient hi dosent notice that, inue gets rescue for ukitake or get taken and rescued later by ichigo himself

ryderdm3
June 30, 2006, 07:41 AM
Something has got to go down. I can't see all 3 situations ending in an ideal way for the good guys. Still...there are a lot of people who are unaccounted for, but will any of them make it in time. When Grimmjow releases, Ichigo will be in some real trouble. Likewise, how can Urahara take on 3 Espada by himself, the others are going to need to step up or others need to show up and help. And with Ulquiorra and Inoue, Ukitake or someone like Shinji had better show up quickly, or Inoue is taking a vacation to Hollow-land.

gigantor21
June 30, 2006, 12:15 PM
ryderman - I think that Kubotite has already estabilshhed that Hitsugaya and the others aren't going to be all that useful. Urahara might be able to fend off Luppi for a while, but I think the only way that the Espada will be driven back or defeated is if a Vaizard or two shows up. The same thing applies to Ichigo, also--only a Vaizard can really help him at this point. As to a Vaizard going all the way to Soul Society, that seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Ukitake seems to be the best bet as to who will come and rescue Inoue.

In any case, I agree that there's no way something isn't going to happen in any of these fights (or upcoming fights).

rasp-g
June 30, 2006, 12:27 PM
urahara faces off wit wonderweiis. he kinda has trouble wit him since his fightin style is weird and is an espada. rupi wants to go after urahara for cuttin off one of her tendrils but ikkaku stops her and goes bankai. yami also wants some action and also goes after urahara. isshin stops him.

as for inoue, the 2 bodyguard shinigami gets beaten and either Yoruichi & Soi Fong, rukia & Byakuya or Ukitake & Shuuhei shows up.

or maybe somethin more random happens like the 2 bodyguard shinigami are really vice-captains of the new replacement captains for 3,5 or 9 :p

rocker2
June 30, 2006, 12:29 PM
Something has got to go down. I can't see all 3 situations ending in an ideal way for the good guys. Still...there are a lot of people who are unaccounted for, but will any of them make it in time. When Grimmjow releases, Ichigo will be in some real trouble. Likewise, how can Urahara take on 3 Espada by himself, the others are going to need to step up or others need to show up and help. And with Ulquiorra and Inoue, Ukitake or someone like Shinji had better show up quickly, or Inoue is taking a vacation to Hollow-land.


Agreed. Out of all the scenarios, Ichigo has the greatest chance of succeeding. From the way Grimmjow has been acting and the fact that he still hasn't released to show his superiority (something I'm sure Grimmjow would do here), the odds of him no longer being able to release are now very high. Ichigo, though tired from his hollow power, is still in bankai and able to block Grimmjow's attacks, even though he is wounded. Finally, Ichigo also has his vaizard powers. Though he lost his mask, it is likely that he may be able to pull out the mask again given that he can hold off Grimmjow till then. Or, he may find a different way to utilize those powers. He's in the corner now so now is the best time for him to really grow.

Urahara, though he is tough and powerful, is out of his league. Unless he has figured out what seems to be the trick of keeping the espada from releasing, he's in a sticky situation indeed. Powerwise, he's in the same league as Ichigo. Abilitywise, he may be a little higher, but until shown otherwise, those espada seem to have the general edge against the captain class, even senior captains. Luppi was likely #7 and then promoted to #6 while Yamii is #10. Ichigo seems to need bankai to go up against Grimmjow, former #6, in unreleased mode. Wanderweiss we have no clue about, but his senses seem to be the most acute out of all of them since it seems he was the first to notice Urahara. If he is near or higher than Grimmjow's level, it seems certain that Urahara will need to pull out his bankai just to draw even with Wanderweiss unreleased. However, if Urahara can hold them off long enough, then reinforcements can arrive or Hitsu will have been given enough time to recuperate some and rejoin the battle.

As for Inoue, damsel in distress she is not, though it does seem like she will be taking vacation in HM. Her only chance here is Ukitake as the other captains are likely too far from the portal to get there in time. The vaizard may make an appearance, though again, them getting there in time is slim. Not to mention, the portal's exit to the real world may not be open yet as Inoue and co. haven't gotten to that point yet. This means that the real world based reinforcements are unlikely to sense Ulquiorra's presense. Poor Inoue likely will have to finish her training in HM. C'est la vie.

gigantor21
June 30, 2006, 12:48 PM
I don't know--I think that saying Grimmjow can't release anymore is a stretch. I think that Kubotite conveniently 'forgot' to have Grimmjow release because:
a - he probably hasn't come up with a released from yet, and
b - he wanted to show off Ichigo's Vaizard powers, to show how much Ichgo has improved.
Think back to when Ururu was kicking the shit out of Ilforte before his released, and then ended up with a hole in her stomach for all her efforts after Ilforte released his sword. I think that Grimmjow didn't release because Kubo is probably thinking that GJ could probably rip Vaizard Ichigo to pieces in his released state. So Ichigo gets to show us some of his Vaizard powers just to whet our appetites, so to speak, then loses them before Grimmjow has to release in order to be able to fight on an even level. I think that's what Kubotite is aiming for, because it's oh-so-convenient.

rocker2
June 30, 2006, 01:25 PM
I don't know--I think that saying Grimmjow can't release anymore is a stretch. I think that Kubotite conveniently 'forgot' to have Grimmjow release because:
a - he probably hasn't come up with a released from yet, and
b - he wanted to show off Ichigo's Vaizard powers, to show how much Ichgo has improved.
Think back to when Ururu was kicking the shit out of Ilforte before his released, and then ended up with a hole in her stomach for all her efforts after Ilforte released his sword. I think that Grimmjow didn't release because Kubo is probably thinking that GJ could probably rip Vaizard Ichigo to pieces in his released state. So Ichigo gets to show us some of his Vaizard powers just to whet our appetites, so to speak, then loses them before Grimmjow has to release in order to be able to fight on an even level. I think that's what Kubotite is aiming for, because it's oh-so-convenient.


Very true. However, if Grimmjow released has greater powers than vaizard Ichigo, then the difference in power between Ichigo currently and the most powerful espada would be many magnitudes higher than the gap he had to close during the SS arc. If his vaizard form now were not equal or slightly more powerful than Grimmjow released form then this would indicated that Ichigo would be learning at least one more release state to face the top espada and another to face Aizen as an increase in ability can only do so much against the espadas' raw power. The reason I'm stating two additional releases is from the fact that the vaizard form, if it is still less than Grimmjow released now, is only giving Ichigo at most a 0.5x power boost over his original bankai since he was level with Grimmjow unreleased in bankai (fresh & noninjured). The one weakness of DBZ was the ridiculous increases in power that a character supposedly gained combined with the lack of power that eventually occurred. An example is Goku in SS. Supposedly had the power to destroy a planet, yet was on the same power level as a small nuke, or even less. I really hope Kubo keeps the character's powers logical otherwise we'll be having an Ichigo that should be 4x or so the strength and ability of Yama-jii, but can get his ass kicked by a 4th seat (this is a large exaggeration, but hopefully it helps make my point).

Also, right now the menos-based arrancar are orders more powerful than VC and below seated officers (the only reason why Matsumoto won was due to the fact she caught her arrancar by surprise before it could release). Thus combined with the espada, the arrancar army would easily overwhelm SS, even if every shinigami in SS were to become 3-5x stronger by the winter war. The arrancar need a weakness. Removal of a limb to stop the arrancar from releasing is still a tough job, but is possible. And if doing so will keep the arrancar from getting too powerful, then SS has a chance. Every character has a kryptonite. Otherwise they become boring. Thus arrancar, especially espada class, should have one too.

gigantor21
June 30, 2006, 03:06 PM
rocker2 - I agree with just abut everything you said in the first paragraph. I've figured that there'd be a lot more to the Vaizard powers than what we've seen from Ichigo ever since he first used his mask two weeks ago, since he's still not even close to gaining adeqate control over his powers yet. A tiered system of releases like the one used with zanpakutos would make the most sense since, as you put it, the plot needs one in order to make Ichigo's growth before fighting Aizen logical. Also, the Arrancar have released states, too, so if the Vaizards only had one form that wasn't strong enough to face the Arrancars, then there'd be no time for them to get any stronger on their own. So, hopfully, there's more to the Vaizards' powers than we know right now.

On the weakness thing, I also agree, but what could that weakness be, exactly? Since each Arrancar has different ways to release, some stuff might work while other things don't. For instance, let's say that Grimmjow did have to use both arms in order to release. What about Luppi? She didn't have that problem, as far as I can tell, because her released state is basically growing extra arms, anyway. And besides, haven't 95% of the characters who've lost in any fight in the series fallen because they just weren't strong enough, or good enough, or they were caught by suprise? Somehow, I don't think that some "Anti-espada agent" will be written into the story. Any weaknesses that contribute to the inevitable downfall of the Arrancar wil probably be due to the three things I noted, or some personality flaw, or possibly all of the above.

strider123
June 30, 2006, 04:09 PM
rocker2, i agree with what u said, except for one thing: powerwise Urahara is in the same league as Ichigo. I don`t thin that`s true!
Ichigo with hollow mask and bankai was beyond one-hand GJ unreleased state; GJ released would probably be above Ichigo!
Now let`s look at Urahara. He took Luppis tentacle with the same ease as Tousen took GJs arm! Now even if Luppi was number 7, the fact that she/he is now numer 6 means that she/he is stronger than one-hand GJ with whom Ichigo is fightin`.
Now my point is: Vizard Ichigo in bankai mode is beyond unreleased GJ and Urahara in shikai mode is beyond Luppi; and we haven`t seen Uraharas bankai `till now! I don`t think that means that Ichigo and Urahara are in the same league in terms of power!
Also, abilitiwise, Urahara is way beyond Ichigo! Ichigo has discovered his shinigami powers a year ago at most while Urahara has been a captain for who-knows how many years! Abilitywise and powerwise, Urahara is on a totally different lvl than Ichigo!
As for the one who will defeat Aizen, i think it will be Kenpachi.

C4animax
June 30, 2006, 08:51 PM
The last piece of monster is probably the strongest one in the groupe so uaraha will be quite busy with him, as for ichigo i suppose that the group who trained him will help him...pushing grim to retreat maybe, inoue will be abducted (spelling) and that's all for me.



Also, abilitiwise, Urahara is way beyond Ichigo! Ichigo has discovered his shinigami powers a year ago at most while Urahara has been a captain for who-knows how many years! Abilitywise and powerwise, Urahara is on a totally different lvl than Ichigo!
As for the one who will defeat Aizen, i think it will be Kenpachi.

I agree with you on this, exept on the one who'll defeat aizen as i believe that only uahara OR ichigo will be able to do it. uahara said something last time like : my bakai is not to be released or something at any time(...), i think that's clear that he's dangerous.

rocker2
June 30, 2006, 09:55 PM
rocker2, i agree with what u said, except for one thing: powerwise Urahara is in the same league as Ichigo. I don`t thin that`s true!
Ichigo with hollow mask and bankai was beyond one-hand GJ unreleased state; GJ released would probably be above Ichigo!

Ichigo in his vaizard form was playing with one-handed GJ unreleased state. He was pushing GJ to surrender, not trying to kill him. Ichigo even asks GJ to stand down. This situation is the same as with Byakuya and ended the same as well, where Ichigo got overwhelmed by his own powers since he refused to go all out and finish the fight (he said he was going to, but pulled back from doing so - standard Ichigo style :modsmack). Yes, Ichigo hasn't learned yet, but the kid has heart and doesn't want to kill if he doesn't have to. If GJ released, that would be about a 2-5x boost in power. Ichigo was easily in this range while playing with GJ. If Ichigo went all out, I think he would equal if not just be a tiny bit above GJ.



Now let`s look at Urahara. He took Luppis tentacle with the same ease as Tousen took GJs arm! Now even if Luppi was number 7, the fact that she/he is now numer 6 means that she/he is stronger than one-hand GJ with whom Ichigo is fightin`.
Now my point is: Vizard Ichigo in bankai mode is beyond unreleased GJ and Urahara in shikai mode is beyond Luppi; and we haven`t seen Uraharas bankai `till now! I don`t think that means that Ichigo and Urahara are in the same league in terms of power!

Urahara took Luppi's vine using his shikai wave. That shikai wave is extremely similar to getsuga tenchou, which we already know is effective on these espada. Tousen took GJ's arm directly using his zanpakutou. One attack used shikai and the other did not. Luppi was released and GJ wasn't. Though the most important point was both were totally off guard. Nothing is out of the ordinary here. The strongest opponents can be as weak as jello when not on their guard. Refer to any of the earlier fights in bleach, DBZ, Gundam Wing, etc. if you don't believe me. Or just refer to your own experiences.

The one point I concur with is the fact that Luppi is stronger than GJ now. However, GJ has not become any weaker in unreleased mode. Nor has Luppi shown he is that much better a fighter with two arms (in his released mode he doesn't even use them). The fact that he is #6 while GJ holds no rank implies that GJ can't release. Urahara can take on one vine while Luppi was off guard. Hitsu was able to take on one vine while Luppi was on guard. The fact that Urahara can do something easier than Hitsu doesn't show that Urahara is any better. If Luppi was on guard and using all his vines, I think Urahara would be quite out of his league. However, the important part of the skirmish from this chapter which shows Urahara's strength level is his shikai attack to ward off Wanderweiss. While we don't know Wanderweiss's level, from the way Luppi took control it is safe to presume that he's around Luppi's level (maybe one level above or below?). Wanderweiss was totally untouched by the shikai wave and was unreleased. Urahara's shikai had no effect nor was fast enough to strike the unreleased Wanderweiss. Not to mention that is Urahara's shikai's strongest attack. The implication here is that Urahara will likely need to go bankai to equal up with the unreleased Wanderweiss, just like Ichigo needed to go bankai to match the unreleased GJ.



Also, abilitiwise, Urahara is way beyond Ichigo! Ichigo has discovered his shinigami powers a year ago at most while Urahara has been a captain for who-knows how many years! Abilitywise and powerwise, Urahara is on a totally different lvl than Ichigo!
As for the one who will defeat Aizen, i think it will be Kenpachi.

One cannot judge skill and power by time. Aizen is far younger than Urahara or Yama-jii, yet way outstrips them in both skill and power. The fact that Ichigo was able to beat Byakuya, without fighting instinct (nor was his purpose to kill Byakuya, while Byakuya's purpose was to kill Ichigo), shows that Ichigo is in the same league as a senior captain (these include Byakuya, Ukitake, Shunshi, Urahara and Yoruichi), especially since he has fighting instinct now. The fact that Aizen himself states that only Ichigo may be a threat to him and his plans shows his potential and current power. If Ichigo wasn't on a senior captain level already, Aizen would have no need to eventually send two espada to kill him. Two regular menos-class arrancar could do the trick. Urahara has more skill than Ichigo at the various shinigami arts - that is for certain. However, his ability (reflects skill, but is not the same thing) and power is in the same ballpark. Urahara is a cool and powerful character, but do not let that fact distort who and what he actually was - a senior captain. Unless Urahara has gained some powers beyond that level (which would put him in the same class as Yama-jii - a.k.a. Commander General), the assumption I'm sticking with is that he is in the same senior captain class as Shunshi and Ukitake.



On the weakness thing, I also agree, but what could that weakness be, exactly? Since each Arrancar has different ways to release, some stuff might work while other things don't. For instance, let's say that Grimmjow did have to use both arms in order to release. What about Luppi? She didn't have that problem, as far as I can tell, because her released state is basically growing extra arms, anyway. And besides, haven't 95% of the characters who've lost in any fight in the series fallen because they just weren't strong enough, or good enough, or they were caught by suprise? Somehow, I don't think that some "Anti-espada agent" will be written into the story. Any weaknesses that contribute to the inevitable downfall of the Arrancar wil probably be due to the three things I noted, or some personality flaw, or possibly all of the above.

Good point. However, all hollows have the same physical weakness - their mask. Destroy it or slice thorough it and the hollows are killed or highly weakened (when Ichigo destroyed part of Acid-Wire's - I think that's his name - mask). This is why shinigami are trained to target the mask. Arrancar are hollow-shinigami hybrids. While their shinigami powers might remove their mask weakness, they should also still have another general weakness since they started out as hollows. Vaizard acquire the mask weakness when they go hollow. If they are to be equally powerful hybrid forms, then hollow-shinigami should acquire some general shinigami weakness. The weakness does not mean that they are much weaker - just that there is a trick to defeating them that a fighter slightly less powerful can take advantage of. The general shinigami weakness I can think of is their unreleased zanpakutou. If their zanpakutou is broken or damaged before release, then they are unable to release until the zanpakutou is healed. Since the arrancar release is more modification of their bodies than their swords, my reasoning is that if you heavily damage the body (like removing a limb), then the arrancar shouldn't be able to release. However, only time will tell.

tanminh
June 30, 2006, 11:00 PM
wonderweiss came from the thing that urahara made right? they got a complicated relation ship right there, in a way they like father and son, might not even fight.[br]Posted on: June 30, 2006, 10:49:13 PM_________________________________________________for inoue, i think that the one eye captain gona show up (dont even remember his name lol) we have seen most of the captain bankai and zanpakuto, except for his, he was the only captain who doesnt use any of his sword ability. so i think the mangaka had some plan for him in the future, he might show up with the biggest powerup (even show up on ichigo vision wen fighting against his hollow). what u guys think? u know....neither him or his vice captain use their zanpakutou yet....weird

strider123
July 01, 2006, 01:50 AM
Unless Urahara has gained some powers beyond that level
That wouldn`t be so impossible. I never understood the reason why Urahara is banned from SS. Wouldn`t be possible that after he completed the Hougyoku he tried it on himself to see if it really works? I know Aizen says that the Hougyoku was sealed immediatly after his creation, but it makes sense that after some1 creates something, to test it. And it probably makes sense that Urahara tested it on himself seein` how he also tested that doll that helps achieve bankai in 3 days on himself. After seeing that the Hougyoku really works he sealed it w/o further analysis, but some1 already found out that he has been using it and then banned him from SS.

Also another idea that bugged me from some time. If all the captains and vc have a power limitation because their reiatsu could cause a ripple in the material world, wouldn`t it be normal that a Isshin, Urahara or Ichigo (who was in the end acknoledged as a shinigami by the SS) be limited in terms of power?! A captain and/or a vc spend a small amount of time in the living world, but Isshin and Urahara spent at least 20 years and Ichigo will spend a huge amount of time (or maybe his body will be killed and he`ll go to SS and become a captain :XD) so they would cause a lot of damage to the material world if they had their full powers, wouldn`t they?
Any ideas, any1?!

rocker2
July 01, 2006, 04:32 AM
That wouldn`t be so impossible. I never understood the reason why Urahara is banned from SS. Wouldn`t be possible that after he completed the Hougyoku he tried it on himself to see if it really works? I know Aizen says that the Hougyoku was sealed immediatly after his creation, but it makes sense that after some1 creates something, to test it. And it probably makes sense that Urahara tested it on himself seein` how he also tested that doll that helps achieve bankai in 3 days on himself. After seeing that the Hougyoku really works he sealed it w/o further analysis, but some1 already found out that he has been using it and then banned him from SS.

Urahara was mainly banned for creating a faux body capable of fully concealing a shinigami and that would drain a shinigami of their powers rendering them back into a living being. The job of a shinigami is to control the flow of souls into SS such that balance is maintained between the souls that go to SS and the souls that leave SS and are reincarnated into new life. Urahara's gigai allows for artificial reincarnation and thus would disrupt the balance if improperly used. Just like how the Quincy disrupted the balance by completely eradicating hollows, not giving the souls a chance to be cleansed and sent to SS. Not to mention it would allow those dead to live again. The Houygoku possibly helped SS make a case to banish Urahara, but unlikely would cause SS to banish him if that was his only offense.



Also another idea that bugged me from some time. If all the captains and vc have a power limitation because their reiatsu could cause a ripple in the material world, wouldn`t it be normal that a Isshin, Urahara or Ichigo (who was in the end acknoledged as a shinigami by the SS) be limited in terms of power?! A captain and/or a vc spend a small amount of time in the living world, but Isshin and Urahara spent at least 20 years and Ichigo will spend a huge amount of time (or maybe his body will be killed and he`ll go to SS and become a captain :XD) so they would cause a lot of damage to the material world if they had their full powers, wouldn`t they?
Any ideas, any1?!

SS only can place reiatsu limiters on those that fall in SS jurisdiction. Since SS banished Urahara, SS law no longer applys to him. Isshin is also not part of SS, nor does it seem like SS even knows about him. If they don't know about him, they can't enforce any laws on him. As for Ichigo, he's a living, breathing human. Thus SS law definitely does not apply to him. As for the damage any one of their powers could do to the real world - that'd be a lot. Why hasn't damage occurred yet? Urahara and Ichigo are definitely senior captain class level while Isshin probably is too. Thus they all have a fair amount of control over their reiatsu levels. Even Ichigo, whose reiatsu levels are unbelievably large even in normal state, has the ability to suppress them to levels such that those around him are no longer affected. Thus reiatsu limiters are not needed. The reason VCs and captains have those limiters is due to the fact that when they come to the real world, it is normally to fight. Living in a world (SS) where they do not constantly have to monitor their power levels, the thought is that they could accidently unleash more reiatsu than they should in a fight in the real world. Urahara, Isshin and Ichigo live in the real world and thus naturally closely monitor their reiatsu levels such that it is likely that the process is completely automated and unconscious now. Though Ichigo has shown that he sometimes jumps the gun and unleashes more reiatsu than he should, Ichigo's the type of fighter who normally holds back and tries to fight with the minimum amount of energy anyway such that his power levels are also naturally regulated to their lowest possible levels.

strider123
July 01, 2006, 05:10 AM
Indeed Urahara was mainly banned for creating "a faux body capable of fully concealing a shinigami and that would drain a shinigami of their powers rendering them back into a living being." But that doesn`t seem as much as a burden as the Hougyoku. I mean, one thing literally decreases the power of a shinigami while the other one breaks the bound between hollow and shinigami powers. Maybe SS wanted every1 to think that Urahara was banned because of the gigai so that power-hungry freaks like Aizen won`t appear when the fact that the limit between hollows and shinigamis can be broken would surface to every1 in SS.

Divine
July 01, 2006, 06:35 AM
My predictions (not actually for 234 but for the few future chapters):

1. Inoue will be successfully captured, but before that maybe Ukitake will come and throw in some action or Rukia sensing the coming of Ulquiorra and headed back to check on Inoue. Whatever it may be, the result will still be the same - Inoue will be captured.

2. Urahara will beat Wonderweiss, with difficulties. Urahara will finally show us his bankai. In chapter 224, he mentioned to us that his bankai isn't one that can train or lend power to people. So, I think his bankai will be revealed soon. Only with his bankai, that he is able to defeat Wonderweiss.

3. Ikkaku, Matsumoto and Yumichika will team-up to fight Luppi. Bankais will probably be released, but before Luppi is defeated, Yami will jump in. So, now there will be 2 espadas (Yami & Luppi which is already near death) against 3 seated officers.

4. As for Ichigo vs Grimmjow, its very hard to predict this one. Well, let us see the points on each possibility.

Ichigo defeat Grimmjow all by himself: - likely because the story must show that the training Ichigo is taking really have some result.
- likely because Ichigo lost the first round and should not lost the twice.
- likely because Ichigo have not done any great thing since defeating Captain Kuchiki Byakuya.
- unlikely because Ichigo obviously can't fight Grimmjow in his released form.

Ichigo saved by somebody, Grimmjow killed by that somebody: - Likely because Ichigo obviously can't fight Grimmjow in his released form.
- unlikely because doing so will break Ichigo's pride & cofidence

Can't think of any points for now. I think we have to wait and what happens for this one.
OK, that all my predictions. ??? Don't know how many will come true ??? :p. And this is probably my longest predictions post, eventhough it isn't that long. :neutral
Hope you don't see this as wasting your time reading this, coz I waste quite some time writing this post, especially trying to predict what will happen with Ichigo & Grimmjow (really jammed my brain, so I decided not to predict but list out the points to it).

mercycubed
July 01, 2006, 09:47 AM
Inoue is captured by Ulquiorra, taken to the throne in the sky, and will be eventually become Aizen's number one lieutenant.
The Vaizard's will save Ichigo from Grimmjaw.
And Rukia and Isshin will show up to reinforce the main battle contingent. Isshin takes out Yami. Urahara takes out freak boy, and Rukia and others will take out "Poison Ivy #6."

gigantor21
July 01, 2006, 10:29 AM
Good point. However, all hollows have the same physical weakness - their mask. Destroy it or slice thorough it and the hollows are killed or highly weakened (when Ichigo destroyed part of Acid-Wire's - I think that's his name - mask). This is why shinigami are trained to target the mask. Arrancar are hollow-shinigami hybrids. While their shinigami powers might remove their mask weakness, they should also still have another general weakness since they started out as hollows. Vaizard acquire the mask weakness when they go hollow. If they are to be equally powerful hybrid forms, then hollow-shinigami should acquire some general shinigami weakness. The weakness does not mean that they are much weaker - just that there is a trick to defeating them that a fighter slightly less powerful can take advantage of. The general shinigami weakness I can think of is their unreleased zanpakutou. If their zanpakutou is broken or damaged before release, then they are unable to release until the zanpakutou is healed. Since the arrancar release is more modification of their bodies than their swords, my reasoning is that if you heavily damage the body (like removing a limb), then the arrancar shouldn't be able to release. However, only time will tell.


With the mask thing, though, both Viz's translation and Toriyama World's scanslation said that you aimed for the head to kill the Hollow's in one blow, not specifically the mask. The only reason I point that out is because if the mask thing was true, then the Hollow that took over Kaien's body wouldn't have a weakness, because he had no mask in Kaien's body. Also, in Volume 1, when Ichigo cut off part of Acid Wire's mask, he didn't really get any weaker at all. And when the Hollow broke his own mask, he said he wanted to pass on before he lost control again.

I think that the masks of the Hollows are just physical side effects of using their powers, not necessarily the source of it. Hollows and Arrancars have at least poart of their mask out at all times because their Hollow powers are activated at all times--the mask on the Vaizards comes out when they tap into theirs. I think that because of how Ichigo's mask kept coming back every time it got destroyed or discarded (after step 2 of Urahara's training, after the fight with Renji, after the fight with Kenpachi, etc.), so I can't really believe that the Hollow mask is an Achillies heel in itself.

The weakness of the Zanpakuto makes a lot more sense to me, because Eldorad said that the Zanpakuto are supposed to be the nuclei of their powers, making them even more important than they are to the Shinigami. Therefore, if their swords were broken, I wouldn't be suprised if they got weak as hell, if not killed outright. I don't think that many of the regular Shinigami are strong enough to take advantage of this though (seeing as Renji and Hitsugaya's Bankais got blocked by Gillian). Right now, only the Vaizards seem capable of doing it--if that is their weakness, of course.

rocker2
July 01, 2006, 12:53 PM
Indeed Urahara was mainly banned for creating "a faux body capable of fully concealing a shinigami and that would drain a shinigami of their powers rendering them back into a living being." But that doesn`t seem as much as a burden as the Hougyoku. I mean, one thing literally decreases the power of a shinigami while the other one breaks the bound between hollow and shinigami powers. Maybe SS wanted every1 to think that Urahara was banned because of the gigai so that power-hungry freaks like Aizen won`t appear when the fact that the limit between hollows and shinigamis can be broken would surface to every1 in SS.


While the creation of the Hougyoku obviously has its problems in attracting power hungry freaks, it doesn't break the fundamental rule of shinigamihood so to speak. It doesn't distort the balance between the living world and SS. Urahara was doing his job in trying to research all possible technologies that could be useful to SS. Obviously, with the Hougyoku, there are ethics issues, however, it was already said that Urahara realized the danger and actively tried to destroy it without ever using it. Urahara did his job and then tried to do the right thing upon realizing the danger. SS laws are often harsh, but so long as there aren't corrupt captains controlling it, they are reasonable. Also, if Urahara used the Hougyoku on himself, he would have had to overcome his inner hollow as well. If that was the case, then he should have been able to help Ichigo with his.



2. Urahara will beat Wonderweiss, with difficulties. Urahara will finally show us his bankai. In chapter 224, he mentioned to us that his bankai isn't one that can train or lend power to people. So, I think his bankai will be revealed soon. Only with his bankai, that he is able to defeat Wonderweiss.

Though we've only seen a small skirmish so far, all evidence is showing that Urahara will need his bankai to even up with Wanderweiss unreleased. His bankai may not be able to train or lend power, but that doesn't mean it is more powerful than Renji's bankai either. Mayuri's bankai can't train or lend power to people either since it is essentially a poison attack coupled with a giant catepillar. But that doesn't mean it's all that powerful either. We all pretty much know most other captains could use shunpo to take out Mayuri in bankai without breaking a sweat. Thus, until we truely see what should be a magnificent bankai from Urahara (he is a genius), I'm of the opinion that Ichigo and Hitsu have set the general bars for what a senior and average captain can do. The rest will either hover around these bounds or fit in between.



3. Ikkaku, Matsumoto and Yumichika will team-up to fight Luppi. Bankais will probably be released, but before Luppi is defeated, Yami will jump in. So, now there will be 2 espadas (Yami & Luppi which is already near death) against 3 seated officers.

Unless all three of them have bankai now (unlikely), they don't stand a chance. It seems the average captain can only take on about 2 vines from Luppi. He's got 8. Those three are done for without help or unless Ulquiorra comes to pull the espada out. There's also the possible scenario that all of these guys just pause their match to see the Urahara vs. Wanderweiss match. It's not like either side have a deadline.



- unlikely because Ichigo obviously can't fight Grimmjow in his released form.

Ichigo saved by somebody, Grimmjow killed by that somebody: - Likely because Ichigo obviously can't fight Grimmjow in his released form.

It's still unknown if Grimmjow can release anymore though all evidence is pointing to the fact he can't. Though true that Ichigo in bankai would unlikely be able to take on a released Grimmjow, Ichigo in bankai w/ hollow mode would be either an equal match or slightly stronger from what we've already seen. If Ichigo is to be helped by somebody, it'll be for the reason that he could use a break from the match, not that he can't fight Grimmjow since he's still quite capable. Grimmjow's just continously attacking and Ichigo is blocking those hits, even tired out from being overwhelmed by the hollow power. If he catches his breath, I don't think Grimmjow's going to make it. If he doesn't, then this match is going to extend a couple of chapters while the two equal opponents fight it out.



With the mask thing, though, both Viz's translation and Toriyama World's scanslation said that you aimed for the head to kill the Hollow's in one blow, not specifically the mask. The only reason I point that out is because if the mask thing was true, then the Hollow that took over Kaien's body wouldn't have a weakness, because he had no mask in Kaien's body. Also, in Volume 1, when Ichigo cut off part of Acid Wire's mask, he didn't really get any weaker at all. And when the Hollow broke his own mask, he said he wanted to pass on before he lost control again.

I think that the masks of the Hollows are just physical side effects of using their powers, not necessarily the source of it. Hollows and Arrancars have at least poart of their mask out at all times because their Hollow powers are activated at all times--the mask on the Vaizards comes out when they tap into theirs. I think that because of how Ichigo's mask kept coming back every time it got destroyed or discarded (after step 2 of Urahara's training, after the fight with Renji, after the fight with Kenpachi, etc.), so I can't really believe that the Hollow mask is an Achillies heel in itself.

The weakness of the Zanpakuto makes a lot more sense to me, because Eldorad said that the Zanpakuto are supposed to be the nuclei of their powers, making them even more important than they are to the Shinigami. Therefore, if their swords were broken, I wouldn't be suprised if they got weak as hell, if not killed outright. I don't think that many of the regular Shinigami are strong enough to take advantage of this though (seeing as Renji and Hitsugaya's Bankais got blocked by Gillian). Right now, only the Vaizards seem capable of doing it--if that is their weakness, of course.

The mask is a hollow's general weakness. Damage the mask and the hollow is weakened or destroyed. It's not easy, but it beats having to slice and dice several times at the rest of it's body. Acid-Wire was in extreme pain and agony from the damage to his mask. If that's not a weakness, I'm not too sure what is then. The arrancar remove most of their mask so that damage to the mask unlikely is going to really weaken them. If the rest of the mask is removed, it's possible they would lose their powers too though at this point, that is unknown. Nonetheless, there isn't enough of a mask left for a good target.

With the vaizard, if you break their mask, they lose their hollow powers. Again, like the hollows, breaking that mask isn't going to be easy, but it is a definite way to weaken the vaizard and make them lose a large portion of their strength. They can always regenerate that mask, but not immediately. Just like how for an arrancar, you can always reattach or regenerate (given that a healer of appropriate level is around) a lost limb or they might be able to do it theirself (ex. Ulquiorra). While the zanpakuto stores the arrancar's true form, what transforms is their bodies, not the zanpakutou. For shinigami, what mostly transforms is the zanpakutou. That's why damage to it takes away the ability for them to release it. Thus if you cause substantial damage to the arrancar's body, it is also likely that they can't transform it. Now taking an arrancar's limb isn't easy. On the contrary, it's extremely difficult. Also, if they release before then, the weakness is gone. This makes up for the fact that with the vaizard, it is easier for them to regenerate their mask once broken. However, their mask weakness is present throughout the whole fight so the weaknesses between them and the arrancar balances out. Finally, as for the hollow that took over Kaien's body, though the final being had no zanpakutou or mask, it's entire body was weak (a fact that Ukitake showed by performing a simple slice with shunpo maneuver). There was no increase in power - just the hollow controlling the shinigami's body. In a way, it could be said that the final being was weaker as it lost both it's hollow abilities and did not have a zanpakutou. It was not a true arrancar or vaizard, so it of course would not have the same general weaknesses exhibited by either.

thedonofdonz
July 02, 2006, 06:43 AM
ok we also have to consider the people fighting Toshiro has an incomplete bankai, and we dont really know what matsumoto's sword can do when its released ikkaku wont use his bankai infront of other people that dont know he has it and yumichika doesnt want people to hate him if he uses his swords true ability so all of them are fighting with disadvantages already.
As for Kiskue we can only asume that his bankai is something that effects the person he is fighting since it cant be used to train people like tosens bankai or that captain that can poison people. as for orihime i hope one day she snaps like a cracker and goes into a killing rage with tsubaki because being passive to her point is too much especially with what she wants to do. i believe she is important to aizen because of her "healing ability" its not really healing because its suppose to return things to their originlal form or something around those lines. as for her getting stronger i believe the key is to mix up those 6 flowers of the habiscus. so i do think she would be captured just not at this point.
As for ichigo i think either his dad comes to help i can imagin the funniest situation his dad comes in with a flying kick screams at ichigo and they team up to beat him , the vaizard that always pisses ichgo off comes to help just to prove a point and to always hold it over his head or he solves the problem himself with another pep talk from zangetsu giving him a new attack since ichgo is the least experienced shinigami and we havent heard much from him since ichigo started doing vaizard training he kinda neglected zangetsu and his shinigami growth.

rocker2
July 02, 2006, 02:05 PM
ok we also have to consider the people fighting Toshiro has an incomplete bankai, and we dont really know what matsumoto's sword can do when its released ikkaku wont use his bankai infront of other people that dont know he has it and yumichika doesnt want people to hate him if he uses his swords true ability so all of them are fighting with disadvantages already.

First of all, we don't know if Hitsu has an incomplete bankai. Shawlong was guessing since Hitsu was losing his ice stars. However, it might just have been the result of Hitsu being limited in power due to the reiatsu limit. Now, Hitsu likely isn't fully knowledgeable of all his bankai's abilities, but to say his losses are because of that fact isn't enough justification. Ichigo's "incomplete" bankai was well more than enough to stand up to and beat Byakuya in the end, who definitely has a complete bankai. Keep in mind that skill and ability are two separate things in the bleach world. While some fighters may have many skills, their overall ability to beat an opponent less skilled than they are can be quite limited. Kenpachi and how he totally overwhelms both Tousen and KM is one of the best examples of this so far. As for Ikkaku and his bankai - everyone on the SS team knows about it now. Only Yumichika and Matsumoto had to physically train - that's why Hitsu and Ikkaku were the ones meditating (not to mention that only they knew how to really calm their mind for bankai training). Hitsu's fully aware of Ikkaku's bankai or else he would have had Ikkaku go through the others' training as well. Not to mention that SS was monitoring all the fights and surely would have noticed the huge power increase Ikkaku showed fighting at the end. Only Yumichika's ability remains unknown, though he's no idiot. Compared to the rest of the 11th division, he's probably the genius of the bunch. He'll utilize his shikai's ability when it is required and it's effect will be most pronounced. The SS team is getting their asses kicked cause they just aren't good enough. The only one left out of the three that has a slight chance to inflict real damage is Ikkaku, but this will only happen if he can catch Luppi off guard. Thus he probably won't use bankai until that moment.



As for Kiskue we can only asume that his bankai is something that effects the person he is fighting since it cant be used to train people like tosens bankai or that captain that can poison people. as for orihime i hope one day she snaps like a cracker and goes into a killing rage with tsubaki because being passive to her point is too much especially with what she wants to do. i believe she is important to aizen because of her "healing ability" its not really healing because its suppose to return things to their originlal form or something around those lines. as for her getting stronger i believe the key is to mix up those 6 flowers of the habiscus. so i do think she would be captured just not at this point.

Orihime's power is space-time manipulation. Amongst Urahara and co, only she has power that rivals Ichigo's (yes, that means her potential is above even Urahara's). Hatchi has already hinted what Orihime's power can eventually do - "it's not what is, but how Orihime wants things to be" or something along those lines. Orihime's not the offensive type - poor Tsubaki may never really get a chance to shine. However, given what we've seen of Hatchi's powers so far and the fact that Orihime's is quite similar, it is likely that Orihime's power might turn out to be complete control of space and time in her surrounding environment. Though this means she won't be the front-line offensive type, any arrancar or hollow crazy enough to try to engage her in battle would be wiped out of existence if they're lucky :amuse.

ryderdm3
July 02, 2006, 04:38 PM
I still think the Vaizards will interfere and stop Ulquiorra. How could they possibly know what is going on and get to SS to help?

Well, they sure as hell knew exactly what was going on in SS when Ichigo was there. Either they have spies there, unlikely, or they are able to watch over SS, perhaps a technique that Hacchi has. Either way, I think they are fully aware of what Ulquiorra is doing, and the fact that he's acting on Inoue is going to force them to interfere. If it were in the human world, then I'd expect Ishida to show up, but since it's in SS, Inoue's only hope is SS captains or the Vaizards.

rocker2
July 02, 2006, 11:02 PM
I still think the Vaizards will interfere and stop Ulquiorra. How could they possibly know what is going on and get to SS to help?

Well, they sure as hell knew exactly what was going on in SS when Ichigo was there. Either they have spies there, unlikely, or they are able to watch over SS, perhaps a technique that Hacchi has. Either way, I think they are fully aware of what Ulquiorra is doing, and the fact that he's acting on Inoue is going to force them to interfere. If it were in the human world, then I'd expect Ishida to show up, but since it's in SS, Inoue's only hope is SS captains or the Vaizards.

Agreed. As I mentioned before, the vaizard showed much interest in Inoue and will likely to be watching over her (they don't let potential recruits get away as we've seen with Ichigo). Your idea of Hachi having some special space-time technique to spy upon events going on in SS, the real-world and maybe even HM is interesting and definitely has merit. Though I'm also of the opinion that they may have a group of spies in SS as well keeping them informed of current events. A third possibility is that they somehow hacked into the 12th division's monitoring feed and records. This would also allow them to track Inoue's movements. We'll just have to see.

gigantor21
July 03, 2006, 10:01 AM
The mask is a hollow's general weakness. Damage the mask and the hollow is weakened or destroyed. It's not easy, but it beats having to slice and dice several times at the rest of it's body. Acid-Wire was in extreme pain and agony from the damage to his mask. If that's not a weakness, I'm not too sure what is then. The arrancar remove most of their mask so that damage to the mask unlikely is going to really weaken them. If the rest of the mask is removed, it's possible they would lose their powers too though at this point, that is unknown. Nonetheless, there isn't enough of a mask left for a good target.

With the vaizard, if you break their mask, they lose their hollow powers. Again, like the hollows, breaking that mask isn't going to be easy, but it is a definite way to weaken the vaizard and make them lose a large portion of their strength. They can always regenerate that mask, but not immediately. Just like how for an arrancar, you can always reattach or regenerate (given that a healer of appropriate level is around) a lost limb or they might be able to do it theirself (ex. Ulquiorra). While the zanpakuto stores the arrancar's true form, what transforms is their bodies, not the zanpakutou. For shinigami, what mostly transforms is the zanpakutou. That's why damage to it takes away the ability for them to release it. Thus if you cause substantial damage to the arrancar's body, it is also likely that they can't transform it. Now taking an arrancar's limb isn't easy. On the contrary, it's extremely difficult. Also, if they release before then, the weakness is gone. This makes up for the fact that with the vaizard, it is easier for them to regenerate their mask once broken. However, their mask weakness is present throughout the whole fight so the weaknesses between them and the arrancar balances out. Finally, as for the hollow that took over Kaien's body, though the final being had no zanpakutou or mask, it's entire body was weak (a fact that Ukitake showed by performing a simple slice with shunpo maneuver). There was no increase in power - just the hollow controlling the shinigami's body. In a way, it could be said that the final being was weaker as it lost both it's hollow abilities and did not have a zanpakutou. It was not a true arrancar or vaizard, so it of course would not have the same general weaknesses exhibited by either.


Hmm...well, I don't know. I went back and re-read that part of the Volume, and I couldn't really see Acid-Wire's pain as being due to part of his mask missing. It seemed more like he was hurt by the fact that, under his twisted and psychotic logic as a Hollow, he was sure that Orihime didn't care about him anymore. Plus, if just losing one part of his mask had hurt him so much, he should've been writhing on the floor in pain after he completely broke it himself. That's why I'm not really sure if the mask itself could be considered their weakness...

I don't know, am I just stupid or something? Can you just see something that I can't because you're smarter than me, or what?

rocker2
July 03, 2006, 01:44 PM
gigantor21, I reread that part and see that it is hard to tell. Actually, if you look carefully, you'll see some mask irregularities. While fighting in Inoue's apartment, one minute Acidwire has his full mask, the other minute the piece Ichigo originally removed is gone. Acidwire took off to go after Orihime because he was weakened from Ichigo taking a piece of his mask and thus knew he could not defeat Ichigo one on one. The only reason Ichigo gets hurt fighting Acidwire in Inoue's apartment is due to the fact that he's so distracted and confused at the situation. While I'm not a fan of the bleach anime now that they are in filler mode, the anime did do a good job correcting inconsistencies and making the story from the manga flow while it was following the manga at the beginning. The anime corrects the inconsistencies from the Acidwire arc in the manga by having Acidwire regenerate his mask after having it partly broken by Ichigo. He is also in a lot of pain till it is regenerated. Acidwire then goes after Inoue and thus Acidwire has his full mask when he first attacks Inoue, just like in the manga.

neomaster121
July 03, 2006, 02:35 PM
i think that near the end of this chapter ishida will help inoue since she human not a shinigami

gigantor21
July 03, 2006, 02:50 PM
gigantor21, I reread that part and see that it is hard to tell. Actually, if you look carefully, you'll see some mask irregularities. While fighting in Inoue's apartment, one minute Acidwire has his full mask, the other minute the piece Ichigo originally removed is gone. Acidwire took off to go after Orihime because he was weakened from Ichigo taking a piece of his mask and thus knew he could not defeat Ichigo one on one. The only reason Ichigo gets hurt fighting Acidwire in Inoue's apartment is due to the fact that he's so distracted and confused at the situation. While I'm not a fan of the bleach anime now that they are in filler mode, the anime did do a good job correcting inconsistencies and making the story from the manga flow while it was following the manga at the beginning. The anime corrects the inconsistencies from the Acidwire arc in the manga by having Acidwire regenerate his mask after having it partly broken by Ichigo. He is also in a lot of pain till it is regenerated. Acidwire then goes after Inoue and thus Acidwire has his full mask when he first attacks Inoue, just like in the manga.


Oh, so THAT's what it was--you were referring to the anime episode. I didn't watch the Bleach anime seriously until Ichigo vs. Renji II, so that's why I wasn't sure what you were talking about. Thanks for clarifiying it for me.

UPDATE - Pocketmofo just did a translation of the script for 234...it's called "No Negotiation". Check it out in the Translations section.

near
July 05, 2006, 07:08 PM
hey i just realized. if inoues powers are to return things to the original form, i bet shes going to play a big part in aizens experiments with the hougyoku. im sure if he could use her to undo his mistakes and reuse his subjects his forces would get way stronger.

wow that seems retardedly obvious now that im typing it tho, apology in advance if thats been said before...

ryderdm3
July 05, 2006, 09:32 PM
Wow I was way off on this chapter prediction. I am somewhat pleasently surprised and relieved though. These chapters are killing me though, I need to see how this is going to pan out.

j0ny
July 07, 2006, 01:13 AM
I predict that this manga will come out sooner than the next Naruto chapter.

Weizen_Bier
July 07, 2006, 02:32 AM
you were wrong :P

Optimist
July 07, 2006, 09:55 AM
hi everyone
here you can find the new chapter
http://rapidshare.de/files/25197759/bleach234.zip.html[br]Posted on: July 07, 2006, 09:51:46 AM_________________________________________________or here
http://www.sendspace.com/file/k0euke

Aezery
July 07, 2006, 01:42 PM
I really hope that some strong Shinigami from SS comes and fight Ulq.

So this doesn't turn out to an "Head into Aizen HQ and save Orihime".

midnight789
July 07, 2006, 05:20 PM
or maybe inoue will turn evil :blink
thatd be weird

WarmIce
July 07, 2006, 06:58 PM
Great chapter! Hitsugaya lays the smackdown and Inoue about to fall into clutches of the enemy. Of course, Urahara finally takes a beating!

jester065
July 08, 2006, 04:58 AM
I don't really think Urahara is hurt at all.. but i did like this chapter tho. Only thing i was dissapointed in was that fact no ichigo vs grimmjow :darn

destinator
July 08, 2006, 05:00 AM
I don't really think Urahara is hurt at all.. but i did like this chapter tho. Only thing i was dissapointed in was that fact no ichigo vs grimmjow :darn


Maybe we will a ichigo/grimmjow dominated chapter next week or Inoue ... I am not really sure!

walkie
July 08, 2006, 11:15 AM
finally a captain did a cool act :D at the first time he won at the last moment because of limitation..but that didnt fit a captain so the last move was something i wanted to see...

i gues urahara still underestimating his enemies..if he took seriously from the very start everything would be better :)

venicia777
July 08, 2006, 09:02 PM
finally a captain did a cool act :D

And let me conclude- this was done by the youngest of all the captains- Hitsugaya taicho. I am not saying that Luppi is down for the count, i am sure many feel the same too. But at least if the youngest captain has improved this much, then SS cant be writen off at all. Even if they got defeated, they will cause a lot of heartache for aizen and co. But i am sure the vizards and ichigo wont allow that to happen.

Go SS!!!!!!!!!

gigantor21
July 08, 2006, 09:22 PM
Not to sound too fanboyish, but if Luppi even took serious damage from that but wasn't beaten, then Hitsugaya basically just redeemed all the captains in Soul Society, and gave some real hope to their cause. If he had been put down by Luppi's attack, then Soul Society would basically be useless. I'm glad that it doesn't feel like all the weight is on Ichigo and the other Vaizards' shoulders.

ryderdm3
July 09, 2006, 03:07 AM
That's not true. Well I mean, many of us don't feel that way. In the Captains ranking page, many of us have Hitsugaya rated fairly weak. Personally, I have him rated kinda low but I think he'll be one of the strongest in the end. He's already showing his progress in a short amount of time. If my top ranked captains were getting beat on then I wouldn't have much faith in SS, but in my opinion we haven't even begun to see what SS's stronger captains can do.

destinator
July 09, 2006, 03:13 AM
That's not true. Well I mean, many of us don't feel that way. In the Captains ranking page, many of us have Hitsugaya rated fairly weak. Personally, I have him rated kinda low but I think he'll be one of the strongest in the end. He's already showing his progress in a short amount of time. If my top ranked captains were getting beat on then I wouldn't have much faith in SS, but in my opinion we haven't even begun to see what SS's stronger captains can do.


Yep cant wait to see Byakuya/Ukitake/Shunsui fighting against the arrancar.

ryderdm3
July 09, 2006, 03:18 AM
I can't wait till Unohana is forced to step in and fight and starts slaughtering suckas, just like I predicted. :whoo

Konkun
July 09, 2006, 12:40 PM
finally a captain did a cool act :D at the first time he won at the last moment because of limitation..but that didnt fit a captain so the last move was something i wanted to see...

i gues urahara still underestimating his enemies..if he took seriously from the very start everything would be better :)


Urahara is a smart man, I doubt he came into the fight knowing nothing about his enermies. It seems that THEY are the one underestimating him and Urahara cant be brought down by one move, he'll kick ass soon.

ryderdm3
July 09, 2006, 03:01 PM
Especially considering Yami even says that the move isn't very strong but it's quicker than the other attacks.

rocker2
July 10, 2006, 03:50 AM
Though the bala doesn't have the punch of the cero, Yami used that move several times point blank on Urahara and at least two of those bala hit. Not to mention the speed of it makes it hard to avoid. Urahara is powerful, smart and wise, but is arrogant. He underestimated the Aizen threat (Urahara's secret plan was completely figured out by Aizen and used against Urahara's team) and both Yoruichi and him underestimated Ulquiorra and Yamii when they first came. And now he underestimated Yamii again. Hopefully those bala knocked enough sense into him to release his bankai :smile-big.

As for Hitsu, he always was an average captain - he never was in the bottom tier in my rankings. In the bleach world, age means nothing. Hitsu's bankai easily surpasses several of the other captain-class bankai we've seen so far. Age limits knowledge, but that has no impact on the effectiveness of one's abilities or their potential. Ichigo at the end of the SS arc was on par with the most powerful captains of SS and now with his hollow mode likely surpasses them. Chad was shown to be of equal power to a VC during the SS arc. He's now acquiring the power of bankai so that would put him closer to the captain-class category at the moment. Inoue's defensive and healing capabilities were captain-class (based on 4th division and attacks deflected by her outer shield) at the end of the SS arc. Just like Unohana, she can heal several people with several extremely bad injuries simultaneously. Inoue's offensive powers are unfortunately weak (shown to be about 5th seat :o), but they may be more powerful now since she has trained for the month. Therefore, when arguing strength and capabilitity, the very last point that should be considered, if at all, is age.

venicia777
July 10, 2006, 10:35 AM
do you really mean that age in the bleach world should be a last consideration? are you not contradicting yourself? if hitsugaya's bankai surpasses several of the other captain class bankai then which of the captains do you think he can defeat? How many bankais have we actually seen to be able to make such a definite analysis?

Of course, part of your argument maybe right- especially if you consider the essence of strength. Or if you use ichigo as an example. but can you tell me that hitsugaya didnt need age to get to where he is? to be able to become this strong? What did age confer on him? Didnt byakuya say that there are only few who can attain bankai- can you absolutely say that there is no truth in that in the bleach world?

Ichigo is the star of the show- but even with his strength (attained and tuned through shortcut methods of training)- look at how he labored with a captain who doesnt even know his swords name or his bankai? why is that? Let ichigo age a little longer and see how much better he becomes? capability to be strong or having an immense store house of strength doesnt confer strength- you need the age (time) to fine tune your capability into meritable strength.

near
July 12, 2006, 10:06 AM
i think what rockers trying to say is just that age doesnt necessarily merit or limit their level of strength. of course hitsu doesnt have as much experience as the older captains. neither does ichigo. but their levels of strength can be just as high. look at ichigo, he isnt nearly as skilled at battle planning or preparing himself for the enemy hes fighting as the more experienced captains, but he has enough strength to fall back on that he can win when hes less prepared IE- ichigo vs. byakuya fight. and for that matter, we dont know how long the arrancar have been training for. and we know at least one was just created. but theyre all ridiculousy strong.

potential and strength are not based on the level of experience. no doubt they will all get stronger with experience, but lack of experience does not always hinder their natural talents.

venicia777
July 17, 2006, 11:47 AM
i think what rockers trying to say is just that age doesnt necessarily merit or limit their level of strength. of course hitsu doesnt have as much experience as the older captains. neither does ichigo. but their levels of strength can be just as high. look at ichigo, he isnt nearly as skilled at battle planning or preparing himself for the enemy hes fighting as the more experienced captains, but he has enough strength to fall back on that he can win when hes less prepared IE- ichigo vs. byakuya fight. and for that matter, we dont know how long the arrancar have been training for. and we know at least one was just created. but theyre all ridiculousy strong.

potential and strength are not based on the level of experience. no doubt they will all get stronger with experience, but lack of experience does not always hinder their natural talents.
"potential and strength are not based on the level of experience"- do you really believe this. it is may be true for just the raw potential/natural talent for strength but is it true for both strength and potential? Why then do you say right afterwards that "no doubt they will get stronger with experience".

everything you said may be rational and have a convicing touch to it but you seem to be avoiding or missing the obvious question or connection or truth. Ask yourself this question: to have Potential to be strong or natural talents for strength without experience - does that make you strong? cANT you see that the hitsugaya or ichigo you are using as examples here needed that "experience" factor to become strong. to be able to harness and control one's Potential or natural talents for strength- are u saying you dont need experience- better still some form of fighting experience?

are we reading the same manga here? all, except hitsugaya, captains in bleach are quite old (hitsugaya is even old compared to a human with his size and facial appearance). Did they get to that stage without experience. Classic example is kenpachi. even as the only captain without a bankai- look how strong he is? Can you honestly say fighting experience was no factor? Maybe there are few instances where someone may pull a victory against a seasoned opponent without experience, but experience and strength are not mutually exclusive to each other.

You dont just get up to become strong because you have the talents/potential lying dormant inside of you. You need the experience to train, control and grow that strength/potential. If this isnt true in the bleach world or even in Our own real world then i am really stupid.