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Tsukisama
April 25, 2008, 02:36 AM
The latest chapter of Bleach has been released. You may view it here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29962).

Use this thread to discuss.

Hockeychaoz
April 25, 2008, 02:43 AM
I assume everyone else noticed the first page and how similiar that normal soul looked to Ichigo when he first became a hollow.

Spitting up the mask and whatnot.
So, I'd say its safe to assume that Urahara is the one experimenting, or he's going to take over this research from someone else.

We know that Urahara gets banished too, so I figure this is gonna be the reason why. Experimenting on souls, and the untraceable gigai.

Cool to see Hisagi there as a kid. Hisagi was something of a prodigy or something if I remember right, he got early acceptance or something.

[edit] as for the poll, I don't think it could be Mayuri, Urahara and Hiyori. If Mayori was involved in something that gets Urahara and possibly Hiyori banished, why is he a captain in the future?

Tsukisama
April 25, 2008, 03:01 AM
as for the poll, I don't think it could be Mayuri, Urahara and Hiyori. If Mayori was involved in something that gets Urahara and possibly Hiyori banished, why is he a captain in the future?

We don't know that the Hougyoku research or whatever this is (if it is Urahara's doing) was related to him being exiled. All we know is that the untraceable gigai is the reason given for his banishment.

Mayuri could have hidden his part in this or perhaps something else to explain this. I have seen Urahara, Mayuri, and Hiyori suggested before, so I decided to include them in the poll.

Hockeychaoz
April 25, 2008, 03:03 AM
We don't know that the Hougyoku research or whatever this is (if it is Urahara's doing) was related to him being exiled. All we know is that the untraceable gigai is the reason given for his banishment.

Mayuri could have hidden his part in this or perhaps something else to explain this. I have seen Urahara, Mayuri, and Hiyori suggested before, so I decided to include them in the poll.

Oh, absolutely. I agree.
I just wanted to put my 2 cents in with the little point on Mayuri.

I like this 100 year ago time warp, its fun knowing the future and guessing what's going to happen.

Tsukisama
April 25, 2008, 03:18 AM
I am really happy with the chapter. As I and several others predicted, there was a significant time skip and the introduction of Mashiro and/or Hachi (turns out just Mashiro) in this chapter.

It was very nice to see more of Kensei and especially a new dynamic to his relationships with his interactions with Mashiro to add to his character. (We have seen a somewhat similar combative relationship between Shinji and Hiyori, but unlike that one, we have not seen this relationship between Kensei and Mashiro in the present.)

As for the shadowy figures, I really don't know. Looking at their silhouettes, I don't think it is Urahara, Mayuri, and Hiyori, because Hiyori's way too short. I am not sure if it is Aizen, Gin, and Tousen. I hope these aren't new characters, but anything is possible.


I like this 100 year ago time warp, its fun knowing the future and guessing what's going to happen.

That definitely makes the gaiden far more enjoyable. :hbunny

Also, I am changing the poll from "Urahara, Mayuri, & Hiyori" to "Urahara, Mayuri, & someone else," since I think that it is clearly not Hiyori. (For those who still think it might be, you can conjecture that she is the "someone else.")

someguy0830
April 25, 2008, 03:23 AM
Of all the people who Mashiro could serve under, it would be Kensei. No wonder he can't tolerate her.

I agree that the hollow mask spitting is awfully familiar. This does make it a bit more likely that Urahara and co are responsible, though I doubt Hiyori would go along with it. The shadows also seem closer in height than they should be. It might be Aizen doing it.

Silhouette
April 25, 2008, 03:50 AM
Anybody thought of the possibility that the one of the silhouettes could belong Shinji? Wasn't he and the vizards kicked out of SS for using "forbidden techniques" to acquire hollow powers?

Anyway, I will go along with the poll and talk about Aizen and Urahara, although I haven't made up my mind because either one can be behind the disappearance of Raukongai citizens.
Reason why It could be Urahara
1-The experiment we saw looked like a hollow transformation and there is a talk about a prototype which most likely means its Urahara and the Hougyoku.
2-Urahara didn't mind releasing shinigamis deemed to be "dangerous to other shinigammis" like Mayuri. This experiment made Rukongai citizens disappear which exactly the type of experiment that Mayuri is needed for
3-Experimenting at citizens who are not deemed as enemies of SS at the cost of their life is probably why Urahara was kicked out of SS. After all, Mayuri was just following orders from his captain not the real the culprit.

Reasons why it could be Aizen
1- No captain coat was seen in the shot of the legs on page 2
2-The silhouette belonging to a smaller shinigami is most likely Gins because although it's possible, it hard to see Urahara trusting Hiyori who doesn't trust him not to mention her immature, fiery character.
3-Aizen did conduct many experiments when he was in SS

KyanWan
April 25, 2008, 03:50 AM
My guesses are:

Mayuri is somehow responsible in part.

Urahura gives him the idea. Urahura couldn't bring himself to start killing comrades & innocent bystanders.

Mayuri has already PROVEN himself capable of KILLING his comrades. ( Ref: Ishida VS Mayuri. Exploding shinigami. )

He's done the same to Nemu - his own "daughter".

Urahura knows Mayuri's got the balls, and lacks the conscience to do whatever needs to be done. There's a reason why he was locked up. Urahura knows it.

There's also a reason while Mayuri's still out of the maggot's nest - and it most likely has EVERYTHING to do with what's going on with the Hyogokyou & Arrancar. He's probably one of the most knowledgeable people on the whole matter. As weak as he is - he killed Szayel... even with that brutal power that he had. He knows things ....

---

I don't think Aizen's downright "evil" atm. I think he changed somewhere along the way. That's my guess.

I think he's an opportunist. Once he finds out what's going on ... he's going to go all out to take his place at the top. I think He's like a cop who looks at a pile of drugs & cash in the evidence room - and decides to himself: "Ya know, I'm not getting paid enough .... " He also doesn't mind using a person when he sees someone who may come in handy. ( Gin, Hinamori, Tosen, even Orihime [ You get some real insight as to how he works with Orihime. I don't think she really bit much, though. ] )

( My $0.02. )

Silhouette
April 25, 2008, 04:00 AM
It was very nice to see more of Kensei and especially a new dynamic to his relationships with his interactions with Mashiro to add to his character. (We have seen a somewhat similar combative relationship between Shinji and Hiyori, but unlike that one, we have not seen this relationship between Kensei and Mashiro in the present.)


Your post reminded me of previous chapters when Kensei didn't want to believe that Mashiro was able to hold her mask for 15 hours the first time she pulled it, I guess I can now see why he was pissed when someone confirmed that she did ^^
One more thing, to slice up a hollow that big with one strike when other shinigamis delivered several hits without killing him off is consistent with how Kensei cut hallowfied-Ichigo's arm off (even though he used Kido then).

Kensei is so badass, I really like him more now and hope to see more of him in the future.

Freeloadersan
April 25, 2008, 04:19 AM
I have a feeling that the shadowy figures are (from left to right) Gin, Aizen and a unrevealed traitor.

First guy has a Gin-like build

Neither of the two people you see have Captain's robe or geta.

Why keep them shadowy unless one is a surprise?

I mean if it was Urahara and Co. no one would be shocked by it since we know he's gonna be doing weird experiments at this time. Likewise, if it was Aizen, Gin, and Tousen no one would be surprised by that either. So at least one guy there has to be a surprise imo.

Hockeychaoz
April 25, 2008, 04:40 AM
My guesses are:

Mayuri is somehow responsible in part.

Urahura gives him the idea. Urahura couldn't bring himself to start killing comrades & innocent bystanders.

Mayuri has already PROVEN himself capable of KILLING his comrades. ( Ref: Ishida VS Mayuri. Exploding shinigami. )

He's done the same to Nemu - his own "daughter".

Urahura knows Mayuri's got the balls, and lacks the conscience to do whatever needs to be done. There's a reason why he was locked up. Urahura knows it.

There's also a reason while Mayuri's still out of the maggot's nest - and it most likely has EVERYTHING to do with what's going on with the Hyogokyou & Arrancar. He's probably one of the most knowledgeable people on the whole matter. As weak as he is - he killed Szayel... even with that brutal power that he had. He knows things ....

---

I don't think Aizen's downright "evil" atm. I think he changed somewhere along the way. That's my guess.

I think he's an opportunist. Once he finds out what's going on ... he's going to go all out to take his place at the top. I think He's like a cop who looks at a pile of drugs & cash in the evidence room - and decides to himself: "Ya know, I'm not getting paid enough .... " He also doesn't mind using a person when he sees someone who may come in handy. ( Gin, Hinamori, Tosen, even Orihime [ You get some real insight as to how he works with Orihime. I don't think she really bit much, though. ] )

( My $0.02. )

I don't really think Mayuri is weak. He beat 8th Espada without an injury.
It's unfair to say that he's weak based on 2 fights. 1 uber loss, and 1 uber victory.

someguy0830
April 25, 2008, 05:07 AM
Mayuri won because he cheated, just like Syazel won because he cheated. Both of them studied their opponent's tricks beforehand. Syazel just got the short end of the stick by trying to be a perfectionist.

Likewise, Mayuri lost to Uryu because he didn't study all the tricks. Lack of knowledge got him beat down, and he would have actually won by proxy had Nemu not cured Uryu.

seth.vicious
April 25, 2008, 05:09 AM
"cannot contain the prototype..."

sounds more like the hougoky to me really...:s
but i am going to agree that the shadows and figures do not remind Urahara and co.
Can someone tell me what is the round thing in front of them?
Nice to see Kensei being such a badass :D

Koen
April 25, 2008, 05:11 AM
I can't say why or who but imo it's too obvious for the three being aizen and co or urahara and co

I think it might be three people of the vaizards

Freeloadersan
April 25, 2008, 05:23 AM
I think you're right the middle one is Love and that is his afro there jk:D.

Silhouette
April 25, 2008, 05:37 AM
I made up me mind and voted Aizen and co

There were two types of victims, one is the Runkongai citizens (ordinary souls) and the other is the 10 Shinigamis sent to investigate. Both were "killed" most likely by the same culprits who needed stronger spirits (aka the 10 shinigamis) than ordinary ones (aka Runkogai citizens). I don't think Urahara would kill shinigamis or get just a ban for doing so. On the other hand, Aizen has no problem killing shinigamis, he even initiated Gin by making him kill the 5th dev 3rd seat.

Vizard5
April 25, 2008, 05:46 AM
what's up with this 10 robes thingy? seemed like a big deal...

Koen
April 25, 2008, 05:49 AM
I really can't come up with people saying it's aizen and co:
Kiddie gin is just introduced, nothing has been said yet about tousen and aizen still hasn't his bad motives atm if you ask me

I think urahara is even more to be defended than aizen and co. BUT I think it's three people we know from the vaizards. Why? People vaporize, a hollow attack - those strings do fit vaizards a lot

Freeloadersan
April 25, 2008, 05:54 AM
Well there was 10 shinigami vangaurd sent to find out where the missing people went. I was thinking that it was referring to them. I guess there are 10 espada so that could have something to do with it.

kunai-knight
April 25, 2008, 06:10 AM
Is it just me or did we learn almost nothing in this chapter? I kept pressin next at the end waiting for more. I thought this mini arc thing was gonna be short but it wont be if the mangaka keeps draggin it out like this.

Hockeychaoz
April 25, 2008, 06:19 AM
I really can't come up with people saying it's aizen and co:
Kiddie gin is just introduced, nothing has been said yet about tousen and aizen still hasn't his bad motives atm if you ask me

I think urahara is even more to be defended than aizen and co. BUT I think it's three people we know from the vaizards. Why? People vaporize, a hollow attack - those strings do fit vaizards a lot

Kiddie Gin wasn't just introduced. There was a 9 year gap in between the last chapter and this one. So yeah, he's been around for a while now.

Kusachu
April 25, 2008, 07:09 AM
OH! Tiny Hisagi is so cute!! <3 I'm loving this flashback arc more than the last few. Urahara seems to sinister back then...

mdp
April 25, 2008, 07:34 AM
9th division looked pretty badass in their trench coat-cutt off robes with the exception of mashiro lol and it was interesting to see kensei's shikai can blow shit up! But was this the same move he used on ichigo when he was fighting his inner hollow or a completly different move?

It was hilarious to see the comic relief that mashiro and kensei still have that funny relationship together, of mashiro having temper tampers and getting on his nerves He looked like he was having a heart attack at one point haha!!

deLirious
April 25, 2008, 08:15 AM
I think it's at least Urahara, and Mayuri might be there with him. In the middle picture on page 2, there's a couple of feet - the front one might look a bit like Urahara's foot, which can be seen two more pages into the chapter (even though you can't really see the Geta's). The thin leg could be Mayuri's. And is it completely coincidentally that the first you see of Urahara in this chapter is his foot?

I like the whole "10 vanguard shinigamis - 10 Espadas", especially since the giant hollow battling the 9th division has a face shape that resembles Barragan's hollow mask. But that's just a thought.

Edit: Guess it didn't resemble Barragan that much after all.

jocouslie
April 25, 2008, 08:17 AM
yeah i'm beginning to love the 9th division led by kensei ^_^ anyway, those 3 figures... at this point i can't pinpoint who they are. as for my prediction, next chapter, those 10 shinigami outfits obviously belongs to the 10 shinigamis of the 9th division sent out earlier. urahara might also be involved to remedy the situation, but that could also be a mask to what they are actually experimenting. its also possible that aizen is having a secret agenda with gin to do nasty things.

sabret00the
April 25, 2008, 08:51 AM
i can imagine it now. some shimigami got together and tried to summon some hollows into them so they could use their powers, however some of the hollows got away and fell into innocent souls (like that of ichigo) and nobody realised. however in present time, ichigo has his hollow under control and realises that it's name is armand who was previously a leader of the demon army and he will assist ichigo or as he's better known... devilman.

sadly, that would actually explain rukia's boyfriends hollowformation.

Kopien
April 25, 2008, 09:23 AM
In the Manga we will hear their voices, not so much of a surprise. I expect that in the next chapters we could see who the three characters are.

Possible Gin, Aizen and a 3rd unkown.

Alexis
April 25, 2008, 09:38 AM
I really can't come up with people saying it's aizen and co:
Kiddie gin is just introduced, nothing has been said yet about tousen and aizen still hasn't his bad motives atm if you ask me

I think urahara is even more to be defended than aizen and co. BUT I think it's three people we know from the vaizards. Why? People vaporize, a hollow attack - those strings do fit vaizards a lot
Gin was introduced 9 years prior to this chapter. It says so on the first page.

Anyway, at first I wondered why there was emphesis on the number 10. Doesn't seem like it's related to the Espada I thought. But then I re read the part about sending out the entire squad, and I guess they were ten separate people from the ones who went whith Kensei.

Anyway, unless Urahara turns out to be a villain, I don't think he was involved in this. Might have been soem of the Vizards, but Kensei and Kuna don't seem to know what's going on, so it's probably not them. None of them seem very knowledgable with experiments, which Hirako demonstrated earlier.

But if it's Aizen, why the mystery? Well might just be to make us wonder. I guess it's more fun this way.

Renji88
April 25, 2008, 09:39 AM
in my opinion:
at page 2 there are urahara, mayuri and another shinigami.

always at page 2, there is a strange giant black circle....
....isn't that similar to the hougyoku? (maybe it was a "prototype" or the "full power hougyoku").

aizen also said he didn't think that hougyoku was a little sphere (at the soukyoku hill)

darkdana666
April 25, 2008, 09:52 AM
Who are those 4 guys from the 9th? They look so cool! Plus the one with long hair is kinda a hottie, looks like Ukitake. Yummy~~~ <3
Wonder what happened to them? Got killed off?

CDoodles
April 25, 2008, 10:05 AM
Hello everyone! This is my first post.

Anyway, while looking over the raw just a few moments ago I noticed one detail which led me to believe that Aizen most likely is behind this hollow appearing in Rukongai. Remember the flashback to Kaien's battle with Metastacia (Aizen's experimental hollow)? While Metastacia's mask is not exactly the same as this new hollow in Ch. -104, they do share a couple of similarities that distinguish them from normal hollows, such as the eye holes jutting out quite a bit. Could the new hollow possibly be an early attempt of Aizen's to creat the perfect shinigami/hollow hybrid? That could explain the odd deaths at the beginning of the chapter and the empty shinigami uniform found by Mashiro. Maybe Urahara tried counter the situation but SS did not approve of what he was doing to help, thus resulting in exile.

Bigfish
April 25, 2008, 10:11 AM
This chapter looks to be offering that the Vizards didn't become so by their own choice. I interpreted it as the normal souls in Rokungai not being suitable to the process, the 10 Shinigami who disappeared became the big hollow Kensei killed, so the three experimenters at the beginning will probably attempt to move up the line to the stronger Shinigami, aka, the future vizards, captains and vice-captains.

jocouslie
April 25, 2008, 10:43 AM
Okay this chapter led me to believe that Aizen, Gin and someone else is responsible for the apparent deaths/disappearances of the people in soul society. This is because of the ten shinigami uniforms that was left. This could be Aizen's experiment for the creation of the espadas, meaning the people who "disappeared" would be used as a catalyst to the experiments combining them and hollows. As u know, Aizen in the present has gathered 10 arrancars. hollows with shinigami powers. Only Aizen could come up with those figures. Meaning Aizen is mostly behind all of the happenings this chapter.

I also predict that Kensei and everyone on that site would be the next people to become experiments of those three figures.

chrisb3
April 25, 2008, 11:24 AM
Those 10 Shinigami seem to have turned into an Adujcha.
Total guess of course, but it looked like a Menos to me.
Perhaps setting up that strong Shinigami become Vastrolord when they lose to their inner hollow?

Also the creation of the Viazard could be the reason Aizen experimented on Hollow-Shinigami rather than the other way around.
a) He created them, realised they had free will still and SS was suspisious of the change/dissaperances. Urahara used as a scapegoat.
b) Someone else created them and he observed the results. Again free will would be the issue, so he tried hollows and found out that they would follow him.

patedecarne
April 25, 2008, 11:27 AM
the chapter was brillhant, to not say other thing!
The gaiden is becoming epic each chapter...

Still, and about Golden week, some news? juts in time like this, a 2 weeks hiatus is the worst thing to happen, damn..

And Kensei as a captain was perfect! his actions as a captain, and a human(??) were admirable

jocouslie
April 25, 2008, 11:48 AM
i think there still gonna be a chapter next week because i believe april 29's holiday was moved to may 4 so yeah there will be a chapter next week, i guess

Travis
April 25, 2008, 12:04 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it was Shinji, Aizen, and Gin.
But I'm guessing it's likely Aizen, Gin, and Tousen. I'd think Aizen would have to recruit someone like Tousen from the beginning, much like he did with Gin.

Although now that I think about it, it is said that Urahara tried experimenting on shinigami or to break the limits through shinigami to hollow, while Aizen said he experimented on hollows to break into the shinigami powers. Or something, maybe I'll read more on it later.

If that's the case, I would imagine it's Urahara, Mayuri, and Shinji or Aizen. Although, one seems shorter than the others, making it seem like he would be Gin. No way, I think, would Urahara bring Hiyori to something like that. It's also hard to imagine him experimenting on people to the point of killing them.

Mayuri could be involved. Aizen, Mayuri, and Gin.
Actually, I just noticed this. Kubo made a point of showing the villain's feet, and Urahara's in the same chapter. It's likely not Urahara I think. I know he only shows 1 person's feet, but still.

Starky-08
April 25, 2008, 01:14 PM
I agree with some people saying that the "10" that where found, could have been first attempt at creating Arrancar, and as we know Aaroniero was an Espada at the time of Kaien being a Leutenant so once rukia has joined(Which will be a long time) I think the next chapter may skip another 2 months or so, cuz Urahara has a year to go before he is exiled. I think that we will see the creation of the first generation Espada such as Aaroniero and maybe Dordonii Cirucci and Gantenbien. It seems as though It could be Aizen, Gin and someone else(Maybe Tousen).

Oh wait I just realised something, Arrancar are Hollows turned Shinigami meaning that the "10" thingys that were found would not be the espada because they would have to be hollows and only Dead souls can become Hollows, meaning that they can become arrancar only. I just proved my self wrong lol >.<

Monkeyshank
April 25, 2008, 01:28 PM
[QUOTE=Tsukisama;839570\I am not sure if it is Aizen, Gin, and Ichimaru. I hope these aren't new characters, but anything is possible.[/QUOTE]

Isnt Ichimaru Gins last name[/I]

It was a typo. I meant to say "Tousen." It's been fixed. :hbunny

toslat
April 25, 2008, 02:23 PM
Hi all,

lurker's first post.

Just a comment on people thinking the trio included uruhara, is that the feet shown all wore 'flats' while kisuke wears 'heels' (dont know what the proper names are) in most pics.

I think the trio are Gin, Aizen, and someone else (possibly shinji as he seems to be aware of aizen's tendencies)

patedecarne
April 25, 2008, 02:27 PM
it's really difficult to take some conclusion right now: the most obviuos choice is Aizen, but I still believe Kubo will surprise us again in this aspect;

Urahara, I really cannot believe he's ablt to do such horrible things to just ordinary citizens, unless I'm terribly mistaken, which could be a great thing...

And I'm really thinking that Kensei and Mashiro will be perfect victims to these experiments, stronger souls could be about to stand a little more such experiments...

Tsukisama
April 25, 2008, 02:32 PM
Hi all,

lurker's first post.

Just a comment on people thinking the trio included uruhara, is that the feet shown all wore 'flats' while kisuke wears 'heels' (dont know what the proper names are) in most pics.

I think the trio are Gin, Aizen, and someone else (possibly shinji as he seems to be aware of aizen's tendencies)

Nice first post, toslat. :hbunny

The thing I have against Shinji being in cahoots with Aizen is that they have not shown any deep trust of one another. Shinji is suspicious of Aizen's activities, and Aizen knows that he needs to be cautious around Hirako. To think that they would become chummy enough over the past nine years to the point where Aizen is including Shinji in his illegal experiments seems a little farfetched to me, but anything is possible.
[hr]

And I'm really thinking that Kensei and Mashiro will be perfect victims to these experiments, stronger souls could be about to stand a little more such experiments...

If you mean that these experiments are what create the vizards, then I concur with you and the other vizards are obviously going to be used in the experiments too (if these experiments really have any connection with that). Otherwise, we know that Kensei and Mashiro are going to make it into the future safely.

segua
April 25, 2008, 02:33 PM
I doubt the 3 unshown people were Aizen and such. Maybe that person got Aizen interested in continuing his work of hollow/shinigami experiments.

chrisb3
April 25, 2008, 02:57 PM
They only show two feet, which are from two different shinigami.
Also... shoulderpads...?
Very odd.

The two with their heads hidden by the weird orb thing are stood close together and seem to be the ones who have their feet shown. They are not Urahara style giant clogs.
The third one has visible hair and doesn't have hair like Urahara.

Also when it was mentioned what Urahara was exiled for, they probally would have mentioned this horrible experiment rather than the untracable gigai.
I think Urahara was exiled for helping the Vaisard escape using the untracable gigai.

Then again that giant orb could be the awakened hougyoku... and Urahara comes to his senses and gets rid of it. Did they ever mention if he used it or not?

toslat
April 25, 2008, 03:51 PM
I 'm quite sure 2 of the 3 are Gin and Aizen.

The first picture showing all three only served to provide info that one of the three was of small stature. That fact narrows things down real quick. Given the manner of introduction of Gin in the previous chapter (cold, ruthless and in cahoots with aizen) he is the prime choice. Other possible candidates would have been Hiyori (silhouette of hairstyle don't match) or Byakuya (wtf!:eek:). Given the context, I think Gin wins hands down.

If Gin is there, it automatically makes aizen number 2, as Gin wouldn't be there without his new found mentor and we all know how aizen turned out. Already he has been showing traits of ulterior motives.

I think the question is really about the 3rd person. I dont think its Tousen as he is yet to be introduced as a seated officer. Shinji possibly but for no justifiable reason so far. Other possible candidates are the former captain of the 12th and, of course, a yet undisclosed accomplice.

Whoever these 3 were, it obvious they were never caught and the vizards and/or kisuke took the fall

On the creation and exile of vizards, earlier Hiyori said she hated humans, so i suspect humans had a role in their becoming vizards (possibly to protect humans) but were subsequently kicked out of SS by commander 'major stuck up' Yama

pangoo
April 25, 2008, 03:57 PM
The funny thing is, that somehow I think that Urahara, Mayuri AND Aizen are working together....How else would Aizen know so much about the Hōgyoku? Also in the very first chapter in this gaiden, when Aizen saw Urahara he gave him a rather surprised look...

JioFreed666
April 25, 2008, 04:05 PM
Sorry i know how half the people that probably read this hate my theories and ISH like that but did anyone else notice that both of the 9th Division captains have had the Initials KT

Moved your post, since it seems more appropriate here.

toslat
April 25, 2008, 04:16 PM
Q: Does anybody carry their zanpakuto on the right?
Seems the rightmost figure in the shadows had something like that sticking out

Kopien
April 25, 2008, 04:22 PM
They only show two feet, which are
I think Urahara was exiled for helping the Vaisard escape using the untracable gigai.



Nice opinion, it matches perfectly the current story.

In the regard of the hole in the first pages, it could be a path to another dimension, just like garganta or a hollow hole. But it looks like the hollow disentegrated so i guess it has a low probability of being a hollow hole.

The theory of one of the guys being Shinji is also very difficult to happen. Remember Kensei is part of the vaizards, Shinji just killed 10 of his men.

And all of the Vaizards up until now have very human personallities. I supported the theory of them being the bad guys too, but they all are nice characters.

And in the 3rd page it says the following about Shinji:

I don´t give a shit if the world around me crumbles. I ain´t gonna change for no one.

Or another translation:

I am myself. Even if everything else in the World were to change.

Freeloadersan
April 25, 2008, 04:25 PM
Q: Does anybody carry their zanpakuto on the right?
Seems the rightmost figure in the shadows had something like that sticking out

Yeah i noticed that as well. I was thinking that it could be across his back perhaps, hence the downward angle of it. I've been looking for people haven't found anyone that fits the bill.

chrisb3
April 25, 2008, 04:40 PM
Does Tosen have a ponytail? Could be that.

someguy0830
April 25, 2008, 05:10 PM
Sorry i know how half the people that probably read this hate my theories and ISH like that but did anyone else notice that both of the 9th Division captains have had the Initials KTExcept that Kensei's initials are KM, so no, no one would notice that.

plew80
April 25, 2008, 05:11 PM
First time posting here but I think it's Tousen too just because he was already following Aizen at around this time.

ShaunMati1
April 25, 2008, 05:14 PM
On the first page of the chapter notice on the top it say an "INNOCENT" incident. Thats kinda like urahara, he always seems so innocent, but we all know how brilliant he is. But in the 2nd page u see 3 ppl and a huge ball. Notice how there are 2 ppl looking like they are messing with the ball and 1 person just watching. I wish i knew what group was like that, where there are always 2 guys doing something and a thirdperson just watching. At first i thought it was Urahara, Mayuri, and Hiyori but the thirdperson is too tall.

If it is some of the vaizards than maybe this might make sense. Maybe some of the vaizards were apart of that incident and go to Urahara for help. If i dont recall the hougyoku not only breaks the wall between a shinigami and hollow but doesnt it absorb raitsu. Seeing as it was in rukia and if she wasnt in the gigai then the hog. was absorbing her power thus eventually making her human. Im thinking that maybe urahara tried to create something to absorb the power of the hollow but instead broke the barrier and realized what he created and tried to hide it. But thats just a thought.

someguy0830
April 25, 2008, 05:19 PM
The Hogyoku doesn't absorb power. The gigai was the one doing that. Urahara knew what he was doing when he made the Hogyoku, he just realized it was a bad idea in hindsight.

ShaunMati1
April 25, 2008, 05:24 PM
Oh right right, im sorry. Well then my prediction goes to the gutter. I just cant wait to see when or why he created the hougyoku

someguy0830
April 25, 2008, 05:30 PM
Like all scientists, he probably did it simply because he could. What better challenge than breaking down the dichotomy between good and evil, as it were.

Shiro-kun
April 25, 2008, 05:38 PM
I have the feeling Urahara is going be blackmailed or frame in the future chapters

kat_at_heart
April 25, 2008, 05:47 PM
I definitely think the 1 of the 3 people standing in the shadows were aizen and someone else I don’t think it has to be gin or tosen but I think these are the beginning of aizenz's experiments with crazy, weird hollows and that hollow what kensei took down was an end result of them

hyn_pride93
April 25, 2008, 07:24 PM
yes... thats pretty exactly what i was thinking. i dont think that it was GIN and TOUSEN. but i do think that Aizen was there for sure. but I think that theres a big chance that Gin couldve been there along with Aizen because Aizen knows that he is genious and thats a good asset.

but i also think that Urahara was framed of something that Aizen did. like creating a monsturous hollow that killed many. so then on top of everything, I DO think that he was the one to create the vizards. he has to be the one.

coolerthanzerok
April 25, 2008, 08:02 PM
It might just be me, but I found the guys from the ninth division looked an awful lot some of Grimmjow's numeros. The one with the long-ish hair looks like Il Forte, even if the color is different, though after checking the guards on their zanpakutos are not identical. The bald guy reminds me of Edorad, though he's bald, had a mustache, and is missing eyebrows. Maybe the masked guy is Shawlong since they both have ridiculous masks. The the guy with the hair might be D. Roy, I have no idea since they really don't look alike. I figure perhaps some experiment gets done on all of those in that group in the ninth division, the two strongest, Mashiro and Kensei surviving and becoming Vaizards when the others were too weak and became Hollows. That's what the Hogyoku does, right? Melt down the borders between hollow and shinigami. In addition, Shawlong, Il Forte, Edorad, and D. Roy are the 11th, 13th, 15th, and 16th Arrancar created, so since this is clearly early in some testing process there might be a correlation.
I am aware that this theory doesn't quite sit well with the whole "Will you become our leader?" Schtick involving those Hollows and Grimmjow, but it could be a very tight time line.
As to the three figures in the beginning I'd like to comment that when we saw their feet there were decidedly no clogs. Additionally it's possible that the giant round thing is just an umbrella for God knows why as a plot device to obscure their silhouettes.

espressokev
April 25, 2008, 08:30 PM
i thought that silhouette was of an umbrella. Mundane, i know, but it's what i thought. Guess we'll see later. At any rate, this is a lot better than the HM arc.

ElNino11922
April 25, 2008, 09:46 PM
i think what we're seeing is the beginnings of applying the concept behind the hougyoku, normal souls, and the 10 shinigami that are missing at the end have had their soul composition altered like shinji said, and have become the hollows that are appearing in rukongai,

also ppl its important not to look into things and overanalyse them, we don't need to speculate the origins of characters and abilities to which kubo has already provided us a clear explanation.

coolerthanzerok
April 25, 2008, 10:18 PM
It can't hurt to speculate some. I mean, much of it is irrelevant even if it is true, it's just amusing to pick up nuance, that's all. I mean, how many arrancar are there whom we know anything about regarding their lives before they became hollows? I mean, a Menos is made from many hollows, so what determines what their appearance after they get their mask removed? I mean, normal hollows just looked like who they really were.

mdp
April 25, 2008, 11:02 PM
Heres my theory on who are the three character silhouettes. But I have to warn you, it just gets more mysterious. :chair

Remember the 2 bodies of the people inside of Szayel's Research specimen storage vault (Conservation Hall)?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/306/16/

(The Ju-Ni Scantlation I have says "Thats!.." instead of "Well Well" so it is apparant that Mayuri recognizes the people in the vault)

These 2 people could possibly be 2 of the individuals we see here in the silhouette.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/02/

What do you guys think? Am I on to something or am I reading too much into this? Because it would make since for Mayuri to recognize these people if he has seen them before from over a 100 years ago. :worship2

ElNino11922
April 25, 2008, 11:11 PM
every right to speculate ;)

i think that it was explained that for a condition for menos to progress evolutionarily is that a particular individual personality that was not completely lost when the gillian was formed will dominate over all others when they become gillian and thus become selfaware (where normal gillian are mindless drones) this awareness allows it to eat other menos grande and progress to adjucha and so forth, its explained in chapter so a safe assumption would be that this residual individual personality will be the image of the arrancar.

read chapter 284

back on topic, i think that those three were aizen, gin and someone else.

turbo_sc
April 26, 2008, 01:19 AM
Judging from the afro: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/02/
I think that the guy in the middle is this guy:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.1/09/
:p

someguy0830
April 26, 2008, 01:29 AM
Umbrella =/= afro.

spudcadet
April 26, 2008, 02:18 AM
Is it just me or does Barragan (one of the top Espada) look like Byakuya's Grandad?

No Quarter
April 26, 2008, 03:43 AM
Ok, about the 3 shady figures... What if they are Urahara, Mayuri, and... Aizen! I mean we know that Urahara and Aizen did experiments back then. What if they were actually colleagues at that time. It would make a great plot twist and bring out an even greater rivalry in the present between those two. We know how good both of them are in hiding their true intentions so that could really happen. The whole charade in front of Shinji could be similar to the one with Aizen and Gin in front of Hitsugaya during the captains meeting in the SS arc.

Whadya think?

Razh
April 26, 2008, 03:56 AM
I think it's Urahara. That umbrella reminds me of him for some reason. And it is an umbrella. What else could it be. It's a circle with little equally distanced spikes on the edge.

I don't think it's Aizen. He as a liutenant isn't an obvious choice, while Urahara is a head of a science division. Hmmm... let me think about it...

And Aizen studied Urahara's research later, when he became captain.
Those people that ended up vanishing could have easilly been volunteers. We actually don't know anything.

MooMoo
April 26, 2008, 04:10 AM
^I think it's just a case of "every-old-man-looks-the-sam" disease.

drakend
April 26, 2008, 05:17 AM
Wow nice chapter, I wonder who are the three mysterious guys! :)

Kopien
April 26, 2008, 05:56 AM
I agree it looks like an umbrella.

So Gin, Aizen and an umbrella guy. We have a new big boss in my opinion.

Who we know that used a umbrella. Nobility, Urahara.

jodox
April 26, 2008, 07:24 AM
So the experiments are them trying to create half soul half hollow so in the process ...since just a regular soul is weak and the hollow is always stronger so(soul implodes) in the experiment the entire thing is destroyed but with strong shinigami they still cant balance out but instead will completely change to hollow(soul explodes into hollow) all vizard will get in on these experiments and along with Urahara but not mayuri (cause he would try it on himself and we know hes not a vizard)......I think it would be stupid to leave the robes behind so their not really trying to hide what they are doing So either all captains are in on it or they know they will be interested in their experiments.


My first post(excuse it may not making sense)

jocouslie
April 26, 2008, 10:09 AM
guys what umbrella are u talking about? can u show the pic of the umbrella ur talking about?

coolerthanzerok
April 26, 2008, 10:40 AM
i think that it was explained that for a condition for menos to progress evolutionarily is that a particular individual personality that was not completely lost when the gillian was formed will dominate over all others when they become gillian and thus become selfaware (where normal gillian are mindless drones) this awareness allows it to eat other menos grande and progress to adjucha and so forth, its explained in chapter so a safe assumption would be that this residual individual personality will be the image of the arrancar.

Thanks, I was unsure if some of the Gillians just developed new consciousnesses of their own or if some dominant consciousness took hold.

Anyhoo, I don't *think* Aizen and Urahara were working together. If they were Urahara most likely would've reported Aizen's action as a threat to Soul Society. If he left documentation for Aizen to research Aizen probably wasn't part of it at the very beginning.


guys what umbrella are u talking about? can u show the pic of the umbrella ur talking about?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/02/

We're not 100% positive it's an umbrella, but we're speculating that it is since is looks like one that the guy (or girl) on the far right might be holding.

someguy0830
April 26, 2008, 10:41 AM
guys what umbrella are u talking about? can u show the pic of the umbrella ur talking about?
This (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/02/) page. The big circle pointy object is an umbrella.

jocouslie
April 26, 2008, 10:51 AM
i see so it's definitely urahara then since in the present time he's the only guy who can be seen using an umbrella. mayuri would surely be the other one. as for the other guy, i don't know.

actually at first glance i thought it was a sphere where the surrounding reiatsu is coming from.

gordongirl
April 26, 2008, 11:05 AM
I think its safe to say one of the three guys is Urahara. With or without the umbrella. I mean it only makes sense. And then the other guy is Mayuri...I guess. But I don think you can say it was Aizen, because he brings it up later in converstation with Urahara. Why do that?

Xerte
April 26, 2008, 12:15 PM
This is an arc to show us how all begun, the trio of evil r tousen,aizen and gin, and we haven't seen anything about tousen...kubo can't just tell us that he joined...

i think they may be Tousen,komamura and a random guy...
this is the 6th chapter of gaiden arc and i still can't see anything about tousen...Komamura was the best friend of tousen, so he is with him to help him to experiment something...also we didn't see anything about komamura, so he'll be putted in the story..
the guy on the left is sleeveless,and tousen usually is sleeveless too
the guy in center has the face totally covered, maybe is komamura and have a wolf head and maybe they r experimenting something that will lead komamura to have that look..and also the guy in center is big, like komamura..

imo.. tousen&koma r experimenting something with IT.. but they don't know how to solve a problem with "that thing"... so they'll go ask urahara & mayuri...
urahara will get interested and aizen too, and they'll start experimenting on the things tousen borrowed..
it'll be named hougyakou..komamura will get involved with it and will be trasformed into an animal-look captain...
then vizard...ecc.... we all know the rest <- know -_-

Neuroff
April 26, 2008, 12:31 PM
Komamura was already a fox when he first met Tousen.

Nami
April 26, 2008, 12:34 PM
Gawwwhhh!! A poll! I can't resist!!!


But I don think you can say it was Aizen, because he brings it up later in converstation with Urahara. Why do that?

Urahara sounded geniunely surprised about the whole incident, and Aizen has that challenging tone when he talks to Urahara. Maybe Aizne just want to 'test' urahara to see how much he knows, especially when Urahara is considered one of the more intelligent and one who's more innovative.

And who knows, maybe Shinji & Kensei decided to experiment with this idea as well as a counter-combat to the hollows/arrancars or whatever you call them.^^

Oh! But Shuhei is so cute!! :fangirl
Now we know how he ended up in the 9th division.

Tsukisama
April 26, 2008, 07:45 PM
I am not sure about it being a giant umbrella (would seem a little pointless at night sans rain). I was thinking that it was some sort of portal or dimensional hole.

I am predicting Hachi will definitely show up next chapter. With the gaiden having progressed this far, it seems almost a certainty now. It was a little suprising to see that all of the female vizards were lieutenants and all of the male vizards (except Hachi) were captains.

If the trend of the male vizards being higher ranked than the females is to continue, then Hachi would have to be head of the Kidou Corps, as its the only rank uncounted for that I would consider higher than lieutenant of Gotei 13. I, however, believe Hachi does not have such a high rank, given how subservient he acts towards the other vizards. So, that means he is probably ranked lieutenant or lower.


Gawwwhhh!! A poll! I can't resist!!!

Yes, all beware the power of the poll! :kukuku

THETRUTH.com
April 26, 2008, 09:52 PM
I'm with Nami I dont think Urahara is one of the three people. Thats E3(evil 3 Aizen Gin Tousen). If Mashiro had not found those shinigami uniforms I might have considered Urahara. Kubo also showed Aizen and Gin's willingness to kill fellow shinigami in the previous chapter.

I think next chapter we get Tousen and Hachi into the story. Judging for their actions Hachi may be a lower rank but then again Hiyori acts like she is in charge. I think we may have the answer to why the Vizards are all Captains and Vice-Captains because their souls were strong enough to take the change. Unlike the normal souls that they were using at the beginning of this chapter. This may also be the reason why their are not more Vizards as their are few shinigami of that level and all of them would be missed if they "disappeared".

hasoon87
April 26, 2008, 10:50 PM
I'm not sure if anyone may have mentioned this already, but in the beginning of the chapter when they show the shinigami with stuff coming out of his mouth (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/01/), reminds me of when ichigo was getting his shinigami powers back using urahara's method, when he was losing he had the hollow type goop coming out of his mouth (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/62/24/)and it was engulfing his face, could be the same thing happening here, except that the shinigami couldnt handle it and died. What do u guys think?

patedecarne
April 26, 2008, 11:42 PM
As much I would like that Urahara could be one of the three people, I dont think he would do such thing to ordinary citizens; Urahara is the key to all the mess, but not that way, I believe; Maybe he'll just try to follow these three people, but will use Hougyoku or any more device..

but at this rate, it's only difficult to predict something..

And about golden week? do you guys have some more information?

garreto
April 27, 2008, 12:12 AM
hey guys, just something to clarify for the people who don't understand. The "umbrella" everyone is talking about is the black orb that has been called an "afro" and a "garganta" but it's just speculation. I don't want it to be Urahara, but after seeing this scene again, I'm just worrying myself...

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/57/02/

KyanWan
April 27, 2008, 01:15 AM
I SERIOUSLY don't think it can be Gin.

Just for the reason that he's too new, too young. He wouldn't have been trusted right off the bat.

Granted, he's a bloodthirsty heartless guy - um - he could fit in, but I'll seriously be surprised if he's one of them. (**** At this point, that is. )

Now that you mention it - the goop that is (hollow mask, right?)

Maybe they were trying to awaken a vaizard or arrancar ... using the hyogokyou (??!!)

(eg, Ichigo was a "prototype" BEFORE he controlled his skills/powers - Urahura did say he would - A: die {become hollow}, B: become stronger - maybe, just maybe, this is what they're doing - forcing the hollow out of those people, but ... possibly, that hyogokyou could FORCE the strength out, or destroy the subject.... )

samlovesclau
April 27, 2008, 01:27 AM
Guys, the three shadowy people are not urahara and mayuri/hiyori, or at least not urahara, urahara is always wearing sandals as they show here

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/04/

Also, the 3 people are pretty tall, hiyori is quite short..

I am pretty sure it's aizen, and if it is not aizen then.. it could even be old yama or even shinji, but i am dead sure that is not urahara..

Actually it doesn't even make sense that tousen would be the third person as he hasn't even been introduced yet.

Jadedmariner
April 27, 2008, 02:43 AM
I am not sure about it being a giant umbrella (would seem a little pointless at night sans rain). I was thinking that it was some sort of portal or dimensional hole.

The umbrella would make sense under the context that it is being used to avoid splatter from the souls exploding (this also explains the angle of the stick like figure protruding from the far right shadow). There clearly is a liquid remains in the panels underneath it so although the 9th division doesn't find any it seems people are not simply evaporating.

Now the strange thing about that is that if it was Urahara, Mayuri, and Hiyori it would mean that Hiyori would be the one not under the umbrella avoiding soul splatter. Of the three she seems the one that would be most disgusted by this experimentation so the idea she would be the one not protected from soul juices is pretty strange. Whomever the 3rd figure is they have to be pretty sadistic to be the only person uncovered if that really is an umbrella.

Kubo definitely did a good job of leaving the scene as an enigma while giving us a sense that we have some idea of what is going on. So we are left in the dark without feeling alienated from the story.

Detonator Of Noobs
April 27, 2008, 04:03 AM
Aizen and Gin begin their revolution :tem

Antillio
April 27, 2008, 10:52 AM
I say it's Urahara with Mayuri and some1 else.
First of all he needed Mayuri to help him with creating/expirimenting the hougyakou.
We all know Mayuri does not rly care about other lives either, hence the sacrifices do not nesacerily point to Aizen & Co. So they experiment on normal souls wich goes wrong since they die, so they figure they need to test it on stronger ppl.
And thats how the stronger 1nes got to became Vizard.

Razh
April 27, 2008, 12:21 PM
Guys, the three shadowy people are not urahara and mayuri/hiyori, or at least not urahara, urahara is always wearing sandals as they show here

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/04/


You can't be sure of that. There were 3 people. How do you know whose legs were shown there? And it seems to me that center figure is closer to the viewpoint than the other too. They aren't standing in line.

Tsukisama
April 27, 2008, 02:46 PM
The umbrella would make sense under the context that it is being used to avoid splatter from the souls exploding (this also explains the angle of the stick like figure protruding from the far right shadow).

Using an umbrella to avoid the liquid debris from the failed test subjects does make sense, although it would seem rather convenient to have one on hand unless it was previously hypothesized that the subjects might react this way.

If it is an umbrella, then I don't think that "stick" is part of the umbrella. Given that the umbrella would have to be pointed somewhat straight back to produce that angle, the handle of the umbrella should be blocked from our view (unless the umbrella has a ridiuclously long handle). I would guess the "stick" is something else like perhaps a zanpakutou.

patedecarne
April 27, 2008, 04:55 PM
Then, no Bleach this week, right? Damn...

Well, someone could create Urahara's agony thread or something like that now, because a hiatus just now is only catastrophic at this rate...

caesarpk
April 27, 2008, 07:10 PM
That stick looks to me like a zanbakutou

KyanWan
April 27, 2008, 07:20 PM
Then, no Bleach this week, right? Damn...

Well, someone could create Urahara's agony thread or something like that now, because a hiatus just now is only catastrophic at this rate...

A week? Please. :) That's nothin.

You should try oldsk00l waiting - or the wait I was just put through for something ... ( 10 months. That's a BAD wait - for something a million times better than any manga - let's see if you can guess what it (who she!) is. ;) )

Tsukisama
April 27, 2008, 07:57 PM
Well, someone could create Urahara's agony thread or something like that now, because a hiatus just now is only catastrophic at this rate...

I have seen the "Feel Sasuke's Agony Thread," but I don't really see the point of creating on here. I thought the purpose of that thread was to tide users over the supposed three-week hiatus (but there was a chapter this previous week). We will only have to wait one week; so, I think that Bleach fans can get by without such a thread.

Xanavi
April 27, 2008, 08:12 PM
I recall in both manga and anime that Aizen was already doing experiments in trying to split the border between shinigami and hollow. I don't know if it went in tandem with Urahara's experiments in creating the Hogyuko. Neither knowing of each others actions. I also really think it's Gin and Aizen on that page. As for the mystery third person, it's up in the air. Perhaps it could be a wild guess...Shinji?

Another thing to spark things up, that hollow that Kensei destroyed might have been one of the Shinigami that Aizen turned into a hollow with his experiments. Also, with the news that Shinji told Urahara may have piqued his interest and perhaps start his creation of the Hogyoku.

Boagrious
April 27, 2008, 08:31 PM
My guess is that if Gin is around then Tousen might be around too.. So my pick is Aizen, Gin, and Tousen.

Jadedmariner
April 27, 2008, 11:17 PM
I actually think there is a possibility that it is the Captain of the 10th squad. Right now the identity for every captain has either been deliberately shown or alluded to for ever single squad except the 10th. It seems odd that only a single squad has been left out and it makes me believe it is either connected to what is going on or is connected to Isshin.

So far I have:

1. Yamamoto
2. Yoruichi LT: Soifon
3. Rose
4. Unohana
5. Shinji LT: Aizen
6. Kuchiki
7. Love
8. Shunsui LT: Lisa
9. Kensei LT: Mashiro
10. Unknown
11. Kenpatchi (foreshadowed to be Zaraki)
12. Urahara LT: Hiyori
13. Ukitake LT by default: Kaien (he refuses the position, but he virtually is the Lieutenant).

Darek Khort
April 28, 2008, 03:25 AM
On second thoughts after looking at the picture again I think it could be Aizen, Gin and someone else. I was going to suggest Urahara but I'd probably get shot.
Why Gin? Well, if you look at the middle and right figure, they seem quite broad (and thus mature).
On the other hand the left person is smaller than the other two and his frame is much smaller. Thinner.

As everyone knows, Gin is THIN. And Gin is not under umbrella. Gin is a cold-hearted murderer who has been seen with blood on his face. A bit of hollow goo splashing about wouldn't affect him in the least.

So, why would Aizen question Urahara about the disappearances? Simple. Why did Aizen question Gin in front of Hitsugaya in the SS arc? To lead him on.
Why Aizen question Urahara in front of Shinji and Hiyori? To lead them on.

That's what I think.


Finally, why would I suggest Urahara and Aizen? Well, if Urahara is willing to work with someone as dangerous as Mayuri thanks to Mayuri's intelligence, why wouldn't Urahara use Aizen? Right now Urahara knows at least that Aizen is good at hiding himself (except against Shinji). He could find Aizen to be quite useful in spying/etc for Urahara. Who knows.

segua
April 28, 2008, 05:16 AM
I would be surprised if one of those was Shinji.

seth.vicious
April 28, 2008, 06:04 AM
Well i voted for Urahara cuz the figure ot the left looks like Mauyri.
The robe of the figure resembles him because it is slightly cut before the ancles and the body is too big to be Gin[note:Mauyri is pretty thin too]That's what i think.

patedecarne
April 28, 2008, 07:35 AM
Thinking better, I don't believe Gin is one of the three persons: the growth rate in Soul Society is much slower than normal world,, so by that time, Gin still should be only a kid, and at least to me, the three shadows seems to be from adult people;

but do you think those experiments will be the Vaizard's origins? I mean, normal souls cannot stand, but there's a possibility that stronger souls could be able to bear; but still I don't think is so simple: these three people will select Shinji, Hiyori, Rose, Love, Lisa, Kensei, Hacchi and Mashiro? I don't think that will be one by one, they won't let this happen so easily...

A possibility that I thought is that in a reunion or something like that, but still I cannot think how kubo would link so many characters from various divisions...

drakend
April 28, 2008, 07:45 AM
A possibility that I thought is that in a reunion or something like that, but still I cannot think how kubo would link so many characters from various divisions...
A party, or something like that. If one of the three shadows is Urahara, and I believe it is, then he needs to disable somehow his guinea pigs in order to experiment on them.

PS If Urahara is revealed doing experiments on people without their agreement, even killing some, I hope he will get killed in the future.

UraharaSan
April 28, 2008, 08:11 AM
I think that those who were experiencing were Aizen, Gin and someone else, but I suppose that Urahara and Mayuri have to do everything in this mystery.

That only a matter of time to discover the enigma, and I will be there to read it :D

"Saludos"

patedecarne
April 28, 2008, 08:30 AM
I think that those who were experiencing were Aizen, Gin and someone else, but I suppose that Urahara and Mayuri have to do everything in this mystery.

That only a matter of time to discover the enigma, and I will be there to read it :D

"Saludos"

Bienvenido, UraharaSan, and please enjoy and have fun!

And yes, Urahara is the key to everything, the first panel of -107 stated that Urahara is totally related to these events, but still how the things will happen is totally unclear to us;

In about 4, 5 chapters we'll finally know the truth, and even if one of the people is Aizen, Urahara will put a hand on this too, I believe

jocouslie
April 28, 2008, 09:19 AM
Bienvenido, UraharaSan, and please enjoy and have fun!

And yes, Urahara is the key to everything, the first panel of -107 stated that Urahara is totally related to these events, but still how the things will happen is totally unclear to us;

In about 4, 5 chapters we'll finally know the truth, and even if one of the people is Aizen, Urahara will put a hand on this too, I believe

yes and i'm actually surprised mayuri isn't exiled with his captain urahara, since i think he also lend a hand in kubo knows what's happening now.

patedecarne
April 28, 2008, 09:51 AM
I also believe that Mayuri had a good hand in all of events; Let's not forget that Kubo gave us almost a whole chapter only explaining the things about the prison, and he also gave much emphasis to the fact that Mayuri was the only one alone in the prison, but not only that, Mayuri also was the only one with chains;

My guess is that Mayuri was a smart and a selfish one in that time, then, seeing how the things would become a mess, he just pretended he didn't know anything, and Urahara, being a captain, had the major guilty, and not Mayuri, because a simple assistant isn't someone really important to SS blame

KyanWan
April 28, 2008, 11:34 AM
I also believe that Mayuri had a good hand in all of events; Let's not forget that Kubo gave us almost a whole chapter only explaining the things about the prison, and he also gave much emphasis to the fact that Mayuri was the only one alone in the prison, but not only that, Mayuri also was the only one with chains;

My guess is that Mayuri was a smart and a selfish one in that time, then, seeing how the things would become a mess, he just pretended he didn't know anything, and Urahara, being a captain, had the major guilty, and not Mayuri, because a simple assistant isn't someone really important to SS blame

It does make complete sense that he could be at least ONE of those three people.

Who's to say that the other two aren't imprisoned now, *OR EVEN, POSSIBLY* those two people who were hanging in HM?

I'm set on Mayuri's definitely involved. Urahura grabbed him for the dirty work, because Mayuri's got *no problem* doing stuff like that. (like I said) The other two people, I highly doubt it's Shinji. It seemed to me that Shinji (may have) suspected Urahura (and was hinting at very subtly: Hey, you're weird - you wouldn't happen to know somethin bout this, now would ya?) As for Shinji being one, why the hell would a guy who's interested in jazz & the human world - *and* what you're wearing - be blowing people up? It doesn't make sense. ]

But - I say it again, Gin's not seasoned enough, nor is Aizen. They've developed.

Aizen's got the makings of a psycho - he's probably got some ideas brewing in that head of his. Soon as things get good and hairy is when the Aizen we know will awaken. True, he's a dirtbag now - but - he's not a sack-a-shit yet. Same with Soujiro - er ... er ... I mean Gin. :P

gold349
April 28, 2008, 11:51 AM
I actually think there is a possibility that it is the Captain of the 10th squad. Right now the identity for every captain has either been deliberately shown or alluded to for ever single squad except the 10th. It seems odd that only a single squad has been left out and it makes me believe it is either connected to what is going on or is connected to Isshin.

So far I have:

1. Yamamoto
2. Yoruichi LT: Soifon
3. Rose
4. Unohana
5. Shinji LT: Aizen
6. Kuchiki
7. Love
8. Shunsui LT: Lisa
9. Kensei LT: Mashiro
10. Unknown
11. Kenpatchi (foreshadowed to be Zaraki)
12. Urahara LT: Hiyori
13. Ukitake LT by default: Kaien (he refuses the position, but he virtually is the Lieutenant).

What your suggesting kind of makes sense, the only division still not introduced properly is the tenth, it could be Isshin as he knew quite a bit about hollows and their different kind when he bumped into grandfisher, also there is still another person connected to Urahara who hasn't been shown yet that is tessai ( the boy and girl don't look as normal beings either)and one other person who is with the vaizrds I can not remember his name but that guy who specialises in barriers (actually thinking about it both specialise in barriers but one is vaizard making it more likely him).

ShaunMati1
April 28, 2008, 12:07 PM
I would love to predict and guess everything for the next chapter, but wasnt there speculation that there isnt a chapter this week :(

gold349
April 28, 2008, 12:22 PM
I would love to predict and guess everything for the next chapter, but wasnt there speculation that there isnt a chapter this week :(

Even if there was a chapter it would still be hard as the chapters don't seem to flow form to the other, he could skip many more years in time.

wrstljr
April 28, 2008, 02:06 PM
I would say since Urahara seems the most suspicious at this point that he is the most innocent.

I back this with no evidence other than how every mystery story every has been told...the suspicious person is never guilty...and because everyone already suspects Kisuke it has to be someone else.

gold349
April 28, 2008, 02:38 PM
I would say since Urahara seems the most suspicious at this point that he is the most innocent.

I back this with no evidence other than how every mystery story every has been told...the suspicious person is never guilty...and because everyone already suspects Kisuke it has to be someone else.

I would back that, the three people in question, one of the panels showed the leg and foot area and as for Urahara he wears those wooden old clog type and in the panel they was wearing normal shinigami foot wear.

segua
April 28, 2008, 04:43 PM
I wonder if Urahara was doing any kind of "weird experiment" at the time that would draw attention? Well, I'm sure he might have drawn enough attetion already being who he is and what he does.

sarutobi_sensei
April 28, 2008, 07:05 PM
well we don't know if urahara used to use shinigami shoe wear.

hyn_pride93
April 28, 2008, 07:37 PM
judging by what we saw in the panel where everyone is debating on whether it was an umbrella or not, i dont think that its Urahara thats in there. but at the same time i dont think that its Aizen OR Gin. but some other trio.

i cant back this up, but if we are going to go with the whole suspicious thing, then i would have to say that Urahara and Aizen and Gin werent in there. attention is always directed straight to them.

have u guys ever played those games where they tell you to watch whats going on? for example: last night my uncle was talking. he got an email where it told him to watch the video and count how many times a basketball was passed. there were about 17 people passing basketballs. my uncle was so focused on that, that when it got to the end it asked him, "did u see the dancing bear?". sure enough when he went back to watch the vid, there was a dancing bear. from the very begining!

this whole gaiden arc is "playing" that sort of game on us! dont u see it? were so busy focusing on the people who have done things in the future that we are possibly missing things right before our very eyes. Aizen is the villain, and everyone wants to know why Urahara and the vizards, and Yoruichi, and Isshin, and all the others left SS. we just need to see the info, or pieces of the puzzle that are given to us, and think really hard about what will happen next.

so, in conclusion. the three peeps most likely arent the "E3", but most likely someone else. if Aizen is questioning Urahara about the recent events, then that doesnt mean that he is automatically the one doing all of things. but someone else.

im sorry for not making sense, but i tried the best i could

fistsofrage
April 28, 2008, 08:53 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it was shinji under that umbrella...

GPZrag
April 28, 2008, 10:39 PM
I wonder if Urahara was doing any kind of "weird experiment" at the time that would draw attention? Well, I'm sure he might have drawn enough attetion already being who he is and what he does.
Dude! i've been wanting to ask you something... where did you find that picture (the one in your sign and avatar) ?!!

Darek Khort
April 28, 2008, 11:40 PM
Mayuri obviously had a hand in this.
I believe the reason why he isn't exiled is because;
1. He is smart enough to avoid being accused; or
2. Like patedecarne mentioned, he was most likely insignificant. Blaming goes to the highest person, Urahara.

The reason why Urahara was caught was either because it was too obvious, or, he wanted to be caught. A reason for this would be that as a captain he would be too high profile and wouldn't be able to move freely and do as he liked due to his followers; and the rest of SS.
On the other hand if Urahara was exiled to the living world not much attention would be placed on his actions.

hyn_pride93
April 29, 2008, 12:01 AM
Mayuri knows more things than we think he knows. obviously. but i also think that there is a very tight circle amongst the captains and vices. secrets are a big thing in SS

Jadedmariner
April 29, 2008, 12:34 AM
Looking at the particular silhouettes I'm starting to think two of the shadows are Captain Kyuchiki and Byakuya. I think of the characters introduced in this arc child Byakuya most closely resembles the shorter shadow on the left. The silhouette on the far right follow the uniform cut and shape that goes with Captain Kyuchiki. It also explains the purpose in introducing both of them more formally in the previous chapter when it didn't seem to fit into the storyline of this arc. Lastly, it would explain why Kyuchiki Byakuya would have met Rukia's sister and his connection to Rukongai. The center shadow is probably going to have to be Mayuri for this to make any sense.

Anyway that's my new and current theory. Otherwise I think it is related to the 10th squad captain who is being kept mysteriously out of the story.

ElNino11922
April 29, 2008, 01:11 AM
Pretty sure that the 10th squad captain is dead at the current time, kyouraku said so in chapt -108 p15, the way he said it (binktopia scan) i dun think there's been a replacement yet. As to revealing capt kuchiki and byakuya i reckon thats jus kubo showing us the origins of characters we already know and what they use to be.

my pick for the mysterious three are still gin, aizen and someone else. i vaguely remember aizen mentioning that there were "others" who tried to gain hollow powers wen he was explaining the hougyoko to rukia back in the SS arc....

Jadedmariner
April 29, 2008, 02:54 AM
Pretty sure that the 10th squad captain is dead at the current time, kyouraku said so in chapt -108 p15, the way he said it (binktopia scan) i dun think there's been a replacement yet. As to revealing capt kuchiki and byakuya i reckon thats jus kubo showing us the origins of characters we already know and what they use to be.

my pick for the mysterious three are still gin, aizen and someone else. i vaguely remember aizen mentioning that there were "others" who tried to gain hollow powers wen he was explaining the hougyoko to rukia back in the SS arc....

It is possible there is no 10th captain as Kyouraku does mention the 10th squad captain had met untimely demise. However, if that is true I think it only raises more questions as to why the post would still be empty.

Istan
April 29, 2008, 02:59 AM
OKAY! this is going to be long and bizarre and involve serveral theories crucial to explainingt he main theory:

First of all they are Urahara, Mayuri, and Shinji OR Urahara, Mayuri, and ISSHIN!

Second of all one IMPRTANT THING TO NOTE: NOT ALL THE CAPTAINS KNOW OF THE VAIZARDS/ARRANCAR before aizen. Byakuya is stunned by Ichigo's mask and cant make heads or tails of it. Aizen pretty mutch declared he learned of the hyoukgonkai(sp) after Urahara was exiled.When Aizen said others tried to obtain hollow powers he referred to the Vaizards. Other captains do not know about this whole deal becuase of yamamoto.

K why itd be Mayuri:

Uraharas righthand man. Well essentially he is. He was thus involved with uraharas research which we know to consist of the destruction of the hollow shini barrier, mod souls, and gigais. However Mayuri might have betryaed Urahara in order to take over the research facility and thus one possible reason Urahara got exiled but unlikely.

Urahara:
First of hes a flippin vaizard >.> dont say he isnt he is. For that matter Cat lady(I ALWAYS forget her name) probably is too. Urahara IS a mad genius and he would not care about killing innocents. Therefore in that scene he is researching it. And we know of the Nest of Maggots as well as the primary sentence of shinigamies that bust the rules:death. So WHY did Urahara get sent to the human world? The answer is of course is that they couldnt kill him, they couldnt stop him. He achieved power none of them could possess and he wanted to stay in the human world. Yamamoto blamed everything on the gigai and him helping the "traitors" (vizards) escape and hus the other captains and lieutenants are unaware of really went on and the hyougonkai stays secret until Aizen discovers it.

Shinji:
WHY THE HELL WOULD SHINJI BECOME THE LEADER OF THE VAIZARDS IF HE DIDNT EARN SOME RESPECT? He got that because he turned the other vizards into vizards or involved them in someway and lead to them becoming vizards. Odd enough that right AFTER the whole experiment scene it has the page of shinkji right BEFORE it goes into something completely different? The statement is a statement of his will, seeing already what some challenges are in becoming a vizard and saying he would not change even if the world did (world referencing to his inner spirtiual world which during Ichigo's hollofication was revealed to make the basis of ones spiritual makeup) and thus become a vizard and NOT die.

As for Isshin:
Hes a bloody vizard too. He was WAY too friendly with Urahara to not have been involved in someway. Help explain why he got kicked out (besides the whole human love).

THETRUTH.com
April 29, 2008, 03:33 AM
Aizen and Gin have been together for about nine years and they showed Gin killing a shinigami in -104. They would have no problem taking out 10 shinigami now. I dont really know who the third person is but I still think it is Tousen. I dont think Kisuke is one of them because Kubo seemed to make a point of showing his shoes in the next seen or maybe that was to throw us off. Aizen may not be one of the three but I think he knows about the experiment if he is not part of them. He has already been shown to be eavesdropping.

The main reason I dont think Urahara is one of the 3 people is because I think those people killed the shinigami, something I dont think Kisuke would do. However if the two things are not directly connected, for example if Urahara was one of the 3 and someone else following them saw the experiment and killed the shinigami I could then see Urahara being one of the 3. But Urahara being one of the 3 and involved in the death of shinigami would also call into question the character, involvment, and/or logic ability of close friends like Yoruichi and Isshin who trust Urahara.

Umbra Wolf
April 29, 2008, 05:26 AM
2. Like patedecarne mentioned, he was most likely insignificant. Blaming goes to the highest person, Urahara.
That's sure if you ask me. Mayuri was imprisoned. i guess Urahara had said something like "If anything happens I will be responsible for everything he does" to Yami and he said ok.
And after Urahara was exiled he was the only one who could fill the gap properly.

My guess would have been that these three people are Gin, Aizen and Mayuri (the bad guys + the mad scientist) but the recent chapter where we've seen Mayuri as loyal to SS rule that possibility out.
So I'm with the Urahara, Mayuri and possibly Aizen group. That's an experiment and they need both top scientist to do something like creating the jewel it's all about.

Kopien
April 29, 2008, 05:51 AM
Sorry, but that big theory of Urahara being the bad guy is farfetched and like you said bizarre.

Remeber the fact that Urahara is a character in Bleach since very early chapters, long before Aizen. He is friend of Isshin, that means Isshin is a bad guy too lol

Then the trio Aizen, Gin and Toussen are good guys? Not a very convincing story.

If you use that theory to the vizards is one thing, but using with Urahara when he is the main character in this arc is not very belivable.

And rember almost all the vaizards have in apperance good personalities, very close to Urahara´s and Isshin´s, always telling jokes, being childish and not caring about nothing in the world, in the figurative speech.

The Trio i predict to be Gin in the left, Aizen on the right and the dude with the umbrella, someone important like a Top Espada, that used to be a Shinigami, a Shinigami or someone new or even a vaizard.

patedecarne
April 29, 2008, 06:53 AM
I love chapters like this, it really took our curiosity and great discussions too!

but to tell the truth, I believe the three people will be totally a surprise by the time kubo show them to us; but even with that, my only guess is that Urahara is one of them; after all Urahara will be linked to Vaizard's events, if the script from -107 isn't wrong

And now I've reread some chapters in the past, when Ichigo was training to defeat Shirosaki with Vaizards, and seems that, at first, they were like Ichigo when the inner hollow took full control, because seems also that the vaizards did the same Training method, when they ask who was the one who took most time to complete, and was Hiyori; then, my assumption is that Shinji and co went totally crazy after the incident...

farseerdk
April 29, 2008, 07:07 AM
random theory: could it perhaps be that when someone is able to resist the "spitting out mask stage", ie. ichigo and the rest of the viazards, they become, well... viazards like ichigo and must learn to supress the hollow through the inner training, but when they fail, the disappear like a normal soul turning into a hollow (hence the random empty clothes) and when they reform they are arrancar! but they don't have full conciousness yet and must therefore be awakened by the hyougokyou (did i spell that right?).

uhhh yeh... maybe? maybe not... k i duno.

as for the trio... shorty person, person with sword either on the right or accross his back and tall dude with an umbrella... erm... gin, aizen, ishhin? i don't know...

Eye of the tiger
April 29, 2008, 10:13 AM
random theory: could it perhaps be that when someone is able to resist the "spitting out mask stage", ie. ichigo and the rest of the viazards, they become, well... viazards like ichigo and must learn to supress the hollow through the inner training, but when they fail, the disappear like a normal soul turning into a hollow (hence the random empty clothes) and when they reform they are arrancar! but they don't have full conciousness yet and must therefore be awakened by the hyougokyou (did i spell that right?).

uhhh yeh... maybe? maybe not... k i duno.

as for the trio... shorty person, person with sword either on the right or accross his back and tall dude with an umbrella... erm... gin, aizen, ishhin? i don't know...

Nice theory, probably true to an extent maybe.. the three silhouettes shown have probably 2 captains and 1 LT, the center one with umbrella is definitely captain... the umbrella does seem to be a telltale sign of Urahara; although that does not make much sense... but, he might be using the prisoners from Maggots' nest to do these experiments.. whereas, Aizen and Gin are probably doing experiments for the same purpose on the Rukongai civilians and the 10 shinigami since they do not have access to a guineapig cage. So, the two incidents may be unrelated.

I am thinking maybe Kensei and group and Shinji got their asses kicked and their soul chains severed by Aizen and Gin... and got experimented on or something. then urahara comes along and revives them using the technique he used on Ichigo, that then awoke their hollows. The vizard hollow training technique and their hidden underground training course smacks of something that Urahara taught them.

And I do not think Isshin is involved in the Vaizard thing because I remember reading in the manga Isshin telling Urahara that the vaizards are traitors, just like Yamma and the rest of SS that do not know the truth.. so he can't be one of them.. also, in that discussion, Urahara keeps very quiet about everything, meaning he does not want to tell Isshin the truth..

but the fishy thing is that Isshin has to have known about ichigo's hollowfication.. everyone can sense the change in his reiatsu... wonder how thats gonna be explained.. maybe Isshin thinks of the vizards as traitors not because they are vizards, but because they did not do "the right thing" and left SS or did not help him do something he was trying to..
[hr]
Man thats too much thinking for me.. i am totally confusing myself I guess..

gold349
April 29, 2008, 10:32 AM
The only person I could think of who did experiments on shinigami hollow was Aizen he said as much in www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/11 but I don't know how far back he was doing them. He focused on shinigami hollow, making hollow fuse with shinigami.

The other person who we know was capable of doing things on a level where he was experimenting with souls was Urahara, in the chapter http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/02 they mention that the ordinary soul can't contain the prototype, so who ever it was must have been someone who was experimenting on the level of the soul. Urahara kisuke was the person who invented the techniques to implant foreign objects into a soul. At moment its all speculation but IMHO I don't think it was Urahara, who knows with a little patients we will have the answer, what ever it is, as from the first chapter of this arc it says the catalyst behind the bitterness between the captains and on the same page (front) it says a count down to the undeniable truth that their masks hide might be a clue to it being one of the vaizards and the only one who we haven't seen so far out of them is the barrier specialist I can't remember his name I think it was Hachin or something so it could be him and two other shinigami.

Tsukisama
April 29, 2008, 10:38 AM
^ His name is Hachi (full name Hachigen), but I am pretty sure it is not him. If he looks anything like he does now, then he could not possibly one of the shadowy three. He is just too physically large to fit any of those silhouettes.

jocouslie
April 29, 2008, 11:22 AM
guys is there going to be a chapter this week and next week? anyway, hachi must make his appearance on the next chapter cause it's been a long time coming. i think he's in the 8th squad 3rd seat maybe(i'm basing this on his nickname "hachi" which i think is 8).

patedecarne
April 29, 2008, 11:41 AM
This week no, but probably in the next one we'll get a new chapter;

And I'm sure Hacchi will shows up in the next chapter, all the others vaizards already appeared and he's th only one missing, and I believe Hacchi is from Unohana's squad, just a little guess, but I cannot think a better squad to him...

Ravis
April 29, 2008, 12:29 PM
I dont think it was Urahara he just doesnt strike me as doing something that evil. On the other hand... Urahara and Mayuri do have to have been doing something for the past 9 years together.

I also dont think its Aizen, in SS arc he was intrested in the whole Vaizard thing, i dont see him being intrested in it if he figured it out 100 years ago.

I also dont think its Isshin, he just doesnt fit someone who would care about his kids. I actually get the feeling he was in that town long before Urahara even showed up. Urahara is said to be "friends" with him but i think its more of a known by reputaion thing and didnt meet him tell after exile.

big_p
April 29, 2008, 12:52 PM
And I'm sure Hacchi will shows up in the next chapter, all the others vaizards already appeared and he's th only one missing, and I believe Hacchi is from Unohana's squad, just a little guess, but I cannot think a better squad to him...

This makes sense because didnt he say to Orihime that their powers were similar, in that they were not well suited for fighting? Thats sounds pretty 4th Squad to me.

xmikeyxlikesitx
April 29, 2008, 01:50 PM
This makes sense because didnt he say to Orihime that their powers were similar, in that they were not well suited for fighting? Thats sounds pretty 4th Squad to me.

I'm pretty sure that he could be the Vice Captain of the 4th Division, remember back when Aizen left SS and Byakuya and Komamura etc. were all being healed?

Unohana looked at Orihime healing Ichigo and said that he didn't need their help...maybe hinting that she had seen a similar technique (Hacchigen) before.

KyanWan
April 29, 2008, 02:26 PM
I dont think it was Urahara he just doesnt strike me as doing something that evil. On the other hand... Urahara and Mayuri do have to have been doing something for the past 9 years together.

I also dont think its Aizen, in SS arc he was intrested in the whole Vaizard thing, i dont see him being intrested in it if he figured it out 100 years ago.

I also dont think its Isshin, he just doesnt fit someone who would care about his kids. I actually get the feeling he was in that town long before Urahara even showed up. Urahara is said to be "friends" with him but i think its more of a known by reputaion thing and didnt meet him tell after exile.

Urahura's not as kind as he makes himself appear to be.

He was friendly to Rukia ...

... yet he tossed the Hyogyoku in her gigai (*body) - and - planned on turning her into a "human" (if you will. Stripping her of her power.)

That's not a nice thing to do to someone - and - especially without giving them any clue of what's going on.

He's the kind of person who would get an idea, then decide - hey, that's too dangerous - and send someone else (who doesn't know the whole story) in there to do his job & see what happens.

Urahura - he is a bit underhanded.

someguy0830
April 29, 2008, 03:25 PM
Though I agree about the gigai, Urahara can't go back to Soul Society. Remember how the gateway rejected him? He sent Ichigo and co. because he had no choice.

Doombot
April 29, 2008, 03:28 PM
I have a feeling in this little gaiden art one of the last shots will be of Isshin. I also tend to think he has to be part of the Shiba clan and an officer, or perhaps even a VC or Captain of Squad Zero.

gold349
April 29, 2008, 03:33 PM
It might have been already mentioned but I seriously don't think it could be Isshin off all people, I mean when he appeared in the real world in his shinigammi outfit after a very long time, Ichigo and Shinji was close by Ichigo wouldn't have been able to tell but Shinji would have been able to tell who the rietsu belonged to if he was aware or knew Isshin from SS. I also mentioned this before, one of the panels show a leg/foot shot and it shows shinigammi in normal foot wear and Urahara doesn't wear normal shinigammi but has wooden clog type things, in my mind ruling him out from being one of the three silhouettes. When he offered the position to myuri of vice president he also says that he is going to make an organisation within his division the likes of which sS hasn't seen before which is the "research and development", which makes it sound like that there wasn't anyone doing any experiments on the development side in SS and what we see in the last chapter does in fact look like an experiment on a soul level this is all about nine years after Urahara becomes captain which kind of points the finger at either his subordinates or someone else who was watching him do his things in private for example Aizen has that power to hide and sneak around.

hyn_pride93
April 29, 2008, 07:46 PM
yes Aizen has the ability to hide and what not, but it was seen right through by Shinji. whos to say that any other captain would never notice it?

but just because Shinji didnt recognize Isshin's chakra doesnt mean anything. Isshin could and most likely be older than Shinji. he also was probably in the Zero Squad: aka Royal Guard.

there are so many possibilities that people dont see right before their very eyes. just because one person didnt recognize it doesnt mean that he was never apart of something, it just means that the person didnt know the other.

the thing that needs to be when reading this story, is thinking into depth.

gold349
April 30, 2008, 06:04 AM
yes Aizen has the ability to hide and what not, but it was seen right through by Shinji. whos to say that any other captain would never notice it?

but just because Shinji didnt recognize Isshin's chakra doesnt mean anything. Isshin could and most likely be older than Shinji. he also was probably in the Zero Squad: aka Royal Guard.

there are so many possibilities that people dont see right before their very eyes. just because one person didnt recognize it doesnt mean that he was never apart of something, it just means that the person didnt know the other.

the thing that needs to be when reading this story, is thinking into depth.

Urahara didn't know his and shinji's conversation was being listen in on, where as shinji said he knew he was there all along so maybe some cannot tell.

That's not what I was saying or trying to say, of coarse Isshin was a shinigammi at one point, the discussion was about the three silhouettes and Isshin IMHO wasn't there at this time when these experiments where going on Shinji not recognising Isshin rietsu points to that fact that Shinji and Isshin where of probably different times or like you say completely different units.

patedecarne
April 30, 2008, 07:44 AM
Urahura's not as kind as he makes himself appear to be.

He was friendly to Rukia ...

... yet he tossed the Hyogyoku in her gigai (*body) - and - planned on turning her into a "human" (if you will. Stripping her of her power.)

That's not a nice thing to do to someone - and - especially without giving them any clue of what's going on.

He's the kind of person who would get an idea, then decide - hey, that's too dangerous - and send someone else (who doesn't know the whole story) in there to do his job & see what happens.

Urahura - he is a bit underhanded.


Yes, agreed 100% here;

We saw him training Ichigo, trying to rescue Rukia and opening Garganta; good things? Yes, but he'll do everything to achieve his goals, remember in Maggot's nest, to gain Mayuri's help he even said things that only amoral people would say, and besides, he's breaking SS laws by set Mayuri free;

Maybe in the present, Urahara is more mature than in the gaiden, that's why he's trying to help Ichigo and co., because in the past has has commited many "questionable" things while a captain;

But a great development to his character, I see...

Eye of the tiger
April 30, 2008, 08:27 AM
It might have been already mentioned but I seriously don't think it could be Isshin off all people, I mean when he appeared in the real world in his shinigammi outfit after a very long time, Ichigo and Shinji was close by Ichigo wouldn't have been able to tell but Shinji would have been able to tell who the rietsu belonged to if he was aware or knew Isshin from SS. I also mentioned this before, one of the panels show a leg/foot shot and it shows shinigammi in normal foot wear and Urahara doesn't wear normal shinigammi but has wooden clog type things, in my mind ruling him out from being one of the three silhouettes. When he offered the position to myuri of vice president he also says that he is going to make an organisation within his division the likes of which sS hasn't seen before which is the "research and development", which makes it sound like that there wasn't anyone doing any experiments on the development side in SS and what we see in the last chapter does in fact look like an experiment on a soul level this is all about nine years after Urahara becomes captain which kind of points the finger at either his subordinates or someone else who was watching him do his things in private for example Aizen has that power to hide and sneak around.

Maybe Isshin can hide his reiatsu just as well as Aizen or Yachiru, remember that even Ishida (a quincy that can detect flow of reiatsu) couldn't tell that Yachiru was right on top of him, and she has a lot of reiatsu (like when she scared the messenger when she was watching Zaraki fight)..

Urahara in SS did not wear clogs.. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.2/
so the silhouettes can still be Urahara and Mayuri and maybe Mayuri's sidekick experimenting on the prisoners from Maggots' nest..

Although Aizen has the power to hide and sneak around, I doubt urahara is the one behind the Rukongai and shinigami killings, that is probably Aizen trying to do what Urahara is.. the two things may be unrelated.

BTW.. someone correct me if I am wrong.. the Hougyoku was put into Rukia's soul and not into the gigai.. she took the gigai so that she wouldn't fade out when Ichigo stripped her of all the powers.. But because she got stripped of her powers that suppressed the presence of the hougyoku in her soul, Aizen was able to figure out that she had it and then the SS arc ensued.. Rukia was probably chosen since she has some specific kind of reiatsu or because she was just an orphan in Rukongai and Urahara thought it would go unnoticed till the hogyoku was slowly completely degenerated..

erik-the-red
April 30, 2008, 08:31 AM
Maybe Isshin can hide his reiatsu just as well as Aizen or Yachiru, remember that even Ishida (a quincy that can detect flow of reiatsu) couldn't tell that Yachiru was right on top of him, and she has a lot of reiatsu (like when she scared the messenger when she was watching Zaraki fight)..

Urahara in SS did not wear clogs.. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.2/
so the silhouettes can still be Urahara and Mayuri and maybe Mayuri's sidekick experimenting on the prisoners from Maggots' nest..

Although Aizen has the power to hide and sneak around, I doubt urahara is the one behind the Rukongai and shinigami killings, that is probably Aizen trying to do what Urahara is.. the two things may be unrelated.

BTW.. someone correct me if I am wrong.. the Hougyoku was put into Rukia's soul and not into the gigai.. she took the gigai so that she wouldn't fade out when Ichigo stripped her of all the powers.. But because she got stripped of her powers that suppressed the presence of the hougyoku in her soul, Aizen was able to figure out that she had it and then the SS arc ensued.. Rukia was probably chosen since she has some specific kind of reiatsu or because she was just an orphan in Rukongai and Urahara thought it would go unnoticed till the hogyoku was slowly completely degenerated..

In the most recent chapter, Urahara is shown wearing his clogs.

gold349
April 30, 2008, 08:45 AM
Maybe Isshin can hide his reiatsu just as well as Aizen or Yachiru, remember that even Ishida (a quincy that can detect flow of reiatsu) couldn't tell that Yachiru was right on top of him, and she has a lot of reiatsu (like when she scared the messenger when she was watching Zaraki fight)..

Urahara in SS did not wear clogs.. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.2/
so the silhouettes can still be Urahara and Mayuri and maybe Mayuri's sidekick experimenting on the prisoners from Maggots' nest..

Although Aizen has the power to hide and sneak around, I doubt urahara is the one behind the Rukongai and shinigami killings, that is probably Aizen trying to do what Urahara is.. the two things may be unrelated.

BTW.. someone correct me if I am wrong.. the Hougyoku was put into Rukia's soul and not into the gigai.. she took the gigai so that she wouldn't fade out when Ichigo stripped her of all the powers.. But because she got stripped of her powers that suppressed the presence of the hougyoku in her soul, Aizen was able to figure out that she had it and then the SS arc ensued.. Rukia was probably chosen since she has some specific kind of reiatsu or because she was just an orphan in Rukongai and Urahara thought it would go unnoticed till the hogyoku was slowly completely degenerated..

Go forward a couple of pages and you will see a shot of Urahara footwear./www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/04

Eye of the tiger
April 30, 2008, 08:53 AM
Go forward a couple of pages and you will see a shot of Urahara footwear./www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/04

true.. my bad.. though it could still be Urahara and gang if Kubo just showed someone else's foot.. but I guess then the whole point of showing the clog vs. the shoes would be lost.. Man I wanted it to be Urahara- the psycho/sociopath!!:tem

patedecarne
April 30, 2008, 11:22 AM
true.. my bad.. though it could still be Urahara and gang if Kubo just showed someone else's foot.. but I guess then the whole point of showing the clog vs. the shoes would be lost.. Man I wanted it to be Urahara- the psycho/sociopath!!:tem

Yes, Urahara being one of them would be totally great, one more proof he was too imature in the past, playing with normal souls that way, and shinigamis too; to use 10 shinigamis at once to his own experiments is really some kind of psychopath, that's why I believe Urahara in the present is trying to fix all of his mistakes from the past

Eye of the tiger
April 30, 2008, 11:54 AM
Yes, Urahara being one of them would be totally great, one more proof he was too imature in the past, playing with normal souls that way, and shinigamis too; to use 10 shinigamis at once to his own experiments is really some kind of psychopath, that's why I believe Urahara in the present is trying to fix all of his mistakes from the past

I agree that Urahara may be trying to atone for past mistakes.. but like Shinji said, he is someone who will do what he wants, no matter what.. thats why i have the little voice in my head telling me that Urahara is the master puppeteer here, and even Aizen is probably dancing to his tune somewhat.. the way Urahara always knew what Aizen was upto even when being in the human world and trained the humans specifically for the purpose of "trying to" thwart Aizen, but not sharing the key info like the hougyoku, etc. seems to indicate a much greater hand in how things are unfolding..

Here's a wild guess... What if Urahara is someone related to the King.. maybe a prince or a minister or something.. he seems to know way too much about everything to be just a 110 yr. old captain..

THETRUTH.com
April 30, 2008, 03:13 PM
Here's a wild guess... What if Urahara is someone related to the King.. maybe a prince or a minister or something.. he seems to know way too much about everything to be just a 110 yr. old captain..

I think Kubo tried to use his previous position to explain his knowledge. But that would do some to explain his no being executed since as stated there is no way to withdraw from the Gotei 13. It also would have relevance to his long relationship with Yoruichi, a noble, and may be the his connection to Isshin.

runyan
April 30, 2008, 05:08 PM
Here's a wild guess... What if Urahara is someone related to the King.. maybe a prince or a minister or something.. he seems to know way too much about everything to be just a 110 yr. old captain..

Seems plausible that he had ties to the upper echelon of Soul Society before entering Gotei 13; it's been stated that he and Yourichi were childhood playmates and that he constructed the area under Soukyoku hill as a childhood hideout. Both things I doubt a normal child rukon citizen would be able to do. That being said, it's just speculation to be related to the King...using the same speculation he could just belong to a lesser family that serves the main noble family, like SoiFong.

Regarding the direction of the gaiden, I'm not sure how the vaizard will end being created but I suspect (as many others do) that Urahara will help them escape SS(either from a death sentence or life in the Maggots Nest) using the untraceable gigai.

Kopien
April 30, 2008, 07:35 PM
Here's a wild guess... What if Urahara is someone related to the King.. maybe a prince or a minister or something.. he seems to know way too much about everything to be just a 110 yr. old captain..

And talking about the King if he really exists. Who could he be. I have a theory that he can be Zaraki. I mean his strength is monstrous and without even using shikai, he is virtually the characther with more reatsu.

And his backstory still misses some pages, even the reason why he doesn´t have a name. Kubo said he will tell his story, i was waiting for that in his fight with Noitora, but no such luck.

But it is only a theory.

hyn_pride93
April 30, 2008, 08:03 PM
I have two thoughts about the whole Zaraki being the KING:
#1:I dont think that the KING could be Zaraki. yes he does have monsturous reiatsu but that doesnt meant that he is the KING. he may be a relative of the ROYAL FAMILY.

I dont think that Kenpachi could be the KING because he just doesnt seem to fit the part. and if He was then Yama wouldve probably introduced him. on top of that, he is too blood thirsty and shit like that to be a KING of the good people.

#2: well it could be a possibility that he is. but if he ran away from the ROYAL PALACE then that would be understandable. and he couldve asked Yama to not tell anyone about his identity.

but if I had to choose one side, I would choose the side against him being KING

patedecarne
April 30, 2008, 10:58 PM
IF Zaraki turns to be the King, I and so many people would stop reading Bleach; that bastard being a king would be even worse than my idea to turn Orihime a villain...

And I don't see why Kenpachi deserves a gaiden: there's nothing special to be told about him, he was just a nameless shinigami that found Yachiru, killed the previous Kenpachi and now is a captain...

but backing to Gaiden, yes, the only thing that bothers me now is exactly why, and how the Vaizards escaped/were banned or whatever; OK, they got hollow powers and maybe SS doesn't like this, but if their intention was only become stronger, then they could just "hide" the new powers, think about that, is strange, don't you think?

And here is where I believe Aizen has a hand: I believe he was the responsible to tell SS about the forbidden powers, knowing that by this way, Shinji would be exiled and he would become a captain...

GPZrag
May 01, 2008, 12:46 AM
IF Zaraki turns to be the King, I and so many people would stop reading Bleach; that bastard being a king would be even worse than my idea to turn Orihime a villain...

And I don't see why Kenpachi deserves a gaiden: there's nothing special to be told about him, he was just a nameless shinigami that found Yachiru, killed the previous Kenpachi and now is a captain...

but backing to Gaiden, yes, the only thing that bothers me now is exactly why, and how the Vaizards escaped/were banned or whatever; OK, they got hollow powers and maybe SS doesn't like this, but if their intention was only become stronger, then they could just "hide" the new powers, think about that, is strange, don't you think?

And here is where I believe Aizen has a hand: I believe he was the responsible to tell SS about the forbidden powers, knowing that by this way, Shinji would be exiled and he would become a captain...
uhhm... Kenpachi is a good man. He just happens to like battle and is always bloodlustful

Jaime F.
May 01, 2008, 02:41 AM
IF Zaraki turns to be the King, I and so many people would stop reading Bleach; that bastard being a king would be even worse than my idea to turn Orihime a villain...

And I don't see why Kenpachi deserves a gaiden: there's nothing special to be told about him, he was just a nameless shinigami that found Yachiru, killed the previous Kenpachi and now is a captain...

but backing to Gaiden, yes, the only thing that bothers me now is exactly why, and how the Vaizards escaped/were banned or whatever; OK, they got hollow powers and maybe SS doesn't like this, but if their intention was only become stronger, then they could just "hide" the new powers, think about that, is strange, don't you think?

And here is where I believe Aizen has a hand: I believe he was the responsible to tell SS about the forbidden powers, knowing that by this way, Shinji would be exiled and he would become a captain...
Hey man what's with the Kenpachi bashing? There's nothing wrong with what he does.

admirenkiwi
May 01, 2008, 03:05 AM
yah, there isnt anything wrong with kenpachi..the way he is is what makes it so interesting :o
all the more interesting when they add a powerful kid with him too!

that guy kenpachi was bashin asked for it =/
he DID let him go.

and no...i dont think he should be king either -_-;
even though he aint bad
if he was, bleach would turn into one bloodthirsting manga...which WOULD kinda suck but unpredictable since he does have another side to him
but he dont seem like the kind that'll want to be a king anyways

poopoomaru
May 01, 2008, 08:29 AM
As far as we know Orihime is the only person in the this entire manga who as any place being in any way related to the "King". If the King is essentially God then it would make sense that it would fall under him and any relation to him the ability to manipulate reality itself, which is what Orihime does. It was already explained in such a way to suggest no possible way it could make sense without some general control of the nature of reality itself, how can you just say no to something, and then just have it be as though it didn't happen? She has also shown that in relation to things unlike just her own powers, a certain ability to supersede the rules as well. Like how she was able to sense and find the Vizards, specifically Ichigo, through a barrier that fundamentally removes all trace of evidence from reality. She wanted to find him and so she did, that seems pretty "God" like to me. If you think about it in a qualitative sense then her powers, if pushed to their extremes, would essentially allow her to completely be a God. She has control of reality, the only reason she isn't some super broken character is through to what amounts she has control over.

Eye of the tiger
May 01, 2008, 08:38 AM
Why just Orihime? Ichigo also is somewhat Godly given that he is a human with shinigami AND hollow powers, a merger of all the realms! Even Sado is weird in that way, being a human and having hollow powers even though he isn't dead and everything..

how about this? I think this whole group- Ichigo and friends, is some kind of reincarnation of the royal family members/gods or something in the real world, maybe thats why Urahara was waiting for them, to finally start up his mega plan with them.

$lvr
May 01, 2008, 08:40 AM
In the most recent chapter, Urahara is shown wearing his clogs.

Maybe this is when he just started wearing them, to keep his toes out of the muck.

Tsukisama
May 01, 2008, 09:25 AM
As interesting as your thoughts on the King and the royal family are, don't discuss them in this thread. If you want to continue this discussion, create a thread on it in Biblioteca (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51).

Please keep this thread relevant to the events of gaiden revealed in the most recent chapter and predictions for the next chapter.

Eye of the tiger
May 01, 2008, 12:21 PM
Got it Tsuki.. my bad.

birmymichelle
May 01, 2008, 01:55 PM
So, I don't know if anyone remembers these conversations, but they took place at the end of the first saga, in which Aizen departed from Soul Society.

He explained to Hitsugaya that Gin had always been his right hand man, since the beginning. Well we just saw the beginning of their relationship, and like he said, the plan had been enacted since then.

Aizen also did several experiments, one of which included the giant hollows that attacked Renji and company when they were still in the Shinigami Academy...Also, the hollow that killed Assistant Captain Shiba's wife, and then eventually him too, was another experiment from Aizen. So we know that the beginning was full of failures, starting from utter disappointments, to half failures.

So, I think that since the hollow that killed Shiba was 40 years before Ichigo, it would make sense that Aizen started experimenting 60 years before that. It's obvious that Urahara and Aizen started their experiments around the same time, and that Urahara was the more successful one.

I dunno, it could be Urahara, but considering the footwear and clothing of the men out there, I believe that it is Aizen...also because of the way the experiments are being carried out. It's obvious that Urahara is doing his out in the open, first retrieving a dangerous man from the Maggot's nest and allowing him to walk freely by his side, and turning the captain's headquarters into a lab. He's not very sneaky...

hyn_pride93
May 01, 2008, 03:12 PM
i agree with you, birmymichelle. Urahara is sneaky but not to the point where he is constantly doing things in hiding. judging by what we saw, it was most likely Aizen that was there, along with Gin. Aizen has never really been the type of person that likes to do things out in the open. just think back on all the things that he has done. always using his zanpaktou to hide and escape from trouble. trying to hide himself and spy on Urahara and Shinji's conversation in the second chapter in the gaiden.

we should never trust Aizen

Marvstar
May 01, 2008, 04:09 PM
I think we shouldn't rule out the possibility of Hirako Shinji being one of the shadowy figures along with Aizen and Gin (If it is actually them). It seems to me he is not stupid, he is a cool, calm and collected captain, who probably would be aware if something was different about his immediate subordinate; Aizen.

My theory is that Shinji leads this whole operation. And that somewhere down the line he lost the will to carry on because of a certain turn of events; but not Aizen. Aizen became obsessed with the sought for power-

I think that Hirako would be confronted with a choice to fix the error of his ways in the chapters after this gaiden.

Sephraman
May 01, 2008, 09:20 PM
I think that it's Urahara, Mayuri, and the third might be Nemu.

jocouslie
May 01, 2008, 09:22 PM
yes urahara wants to make a revolition in soul society something that he thinks can benefit the whole of ss, something that's never been done before, while all aizen wants is power, control and domination. so i believe it is aizen, gin and someone else that's there in the 2nd page experimenting with people. the hogyouku perhaps is intended to aid shinigamis, not harm them or make them dangerous, but i guess there's a miscalculation.

bittman
May 01, 2008, 11:52 PM
Please let the shadowy figures be something new. Like the Royal Guard or perhaps original vizards. If it's any of the two groups suggested above I'm just gonna be disappointed now. Shinji would be interesting, but I doubt it seeing as a fellow vizard or two (in the future at least) are no investigating it.

I still doubt Aizen as the source because he surely started experimenting on Hollows surely before he would take away an elite advance group from the ninth division. Uruhara is slightly believable, but doing this would destroy his good, but lazy, guy image.

$lvr
May 02, 2008, 12:07 AM
I am beginning to think maybe Aizen is not a "Bad" guy. He is certainly out to destroy/overthrow SS and ultimately the "King", but what if it's all for past atrocities that were committed, maybe even to someone close to him. Don't get me wrong, he certainly is twisted now, but what if his driving motivation to gain power began for the pursuit of justice. That would be one of the few ways to explain the righteous Tousen hooking up with him. The slaying of the Central 46 also fits the scenario. Next there's this history lesson were getting that lays the foundation for a much darker SS past than we have previously been exposed to.
Could turn out anyway now, there are just too many possibilities now that all of the seemingly unrelated characters and groups are shown to be deeply intertwined.

Was anyone else curious in -108 about the over reaction to ending up on Unohana's bad side?

farseerdk
May 02, 2008, 09:33 AM
hold on, chronologically, where does the war of the quincy fit in with all this? is it at around this time... if so, are we gonna see it mentioned?

Tsukisama
May 02, 2008, 09:37 AM
The Shinigami-Quincy war is referenced as having taken place around 200 years ago relative to the present action. So, the gaiden takes place about a century after that. I doubt that Quincys will come up.

birmymichelle
May 02, 2008, 12:49 PM
First, to farseerdk and Tsukisama...what with the way we are seeing 'not so important people's' beginnings, we'll probably see Issida's grandfather be kidnapped or something...I dunno, I feel like it'll be something happening in the background, nothing of a big deal...

And, I like the idea of Aizen being not a 'bad' guy, but you can tell that even in his younger years, before the atrocities that are taking place 'now'....i mean, even before that, he was impressed by the slaughter of a 3rd seat by Gin. There were no experiments or missing people yet, and Aizen is already planning something.

And I don't think that's all; he said he never considered anyone else by Gin as his second in command. I think that this does not imply that the idea came together when he met Gin, but rather he had been conceiving it, and Gin fit the profile. He could have decided it afterwards and saw Gin the only fit to his plan, but the way he addresses Gin after killing the 3rd seat, almost nonchalant like it didn't matter that he just meaningless killed someone, it seems like he saw the promise in him that he needed for his scheme.

And btw, Aizen is the patient type. His plan could have been in action for hundreds of years...

Jehuty
May 02, 2008, 12:52 PM
First, to farseerdk and Tsukisama...what with the way we are seeing 'not so important people's' beginnings, we'll probably see Issida's grandfather be kidnapped or something...I dunno, I feel like it'll be something happening in the background, nothing of a big deal...

And, I like the idea of Aizen being not a 'bad' guy, but you can tell that even in his younger years, before the atrocities that are taking place 'now'....i mean, even before that, he was impressed by the slaughter of a 3rd seat by Gin. There were no experiments or missing people yet, and Aizen is already planning something.

And I don't think that's all; he said he never considered anyone else by Gin as his second in command. I think that this does not imply that the idea came together when he met Gin, but rather he had been conceiving it, and Gin fit the profile. He could have decided it afterwards and saw Gin the only fit to his plan, but the way he addresses Gin after killing the 3rd seat, almost nonchalant like it didn't matter that he just meaningless killed someone, it seems like he saw the promise in him that he needed for his scheme.

And btw, Aizen is the patient type. His plan could have been in action for hundreds of years...
I hope/don't think Urahara would condone that kind of experimentation... the outright murder of several souls, including at least ten shinigami... He could be acting, but he didn't seem to know about the exploding bodies.

I haven't been around in a while, so I dunno how many times this has been brought up, but I believe the way the bodies began to react looked like Ichigo's own original Hollowfication.

KyanWan
May 02, 2008, 01:07 PM
I hope/don't think Urahara would condone that kind of experimentation... the outright murder of several souls, including at least ten shinigami... He could be acting, but he didn't seem to know about the exploding bodies.

I haven't been around in a while, so I dunno how many times this has been brought up, but I believe the way the bodies began to react looked like Ichigo's own original Hollowfication.

Consider how he can be thinking - in a "for the greater good" mode.

---

"Weigh the cost of ten lives, versus ten thousand. If I use ten to save ten thousand, then my net good deed is greater than the evil."

This runs in line with the age-old driving question:

"You're driving a school bus full of kids down a single lane road on the side of the mountain. You're going too fast to stop. You see a 5 year old kid right dead in front of you as you turn a corner - you can't stop, you can't turn. What do you do?"

( The "correct" answer is ... kill the kid. But, is there another way? How about open the window and scream to the kid: "HEY! LAY DOWN ON THE ROAD! DO IT NOW!!!")

IMO - that's probably what Urahura's doing. IMO - he's proven he's capable of it. ( Example in question: What has more value - Rukia - or the greater good...? "Hey, can I interest you in a gigai?") Experimentation with/using people is NOT above his standards.

Same kind of reasoning that the USA used to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima. (What's less damage - a hundred thousand dead, or a couple million ... the powers that were ... picked a hundred thousand. )

There may have been another way - but with all of his wisdom (*or lack of), he didn't see it.

Tsukisama
May 02, 2008, 05:12 PM
First, to farseerdk and Tsukisama...what with the way we are seeing 'not so important people's' beginnings, we'll probably see Issida's grandfather be kidnapped or something...I dunno, I feel like it'll be something happening in the background, nothing of a big deal...

Souken being kidnapped is not going to happen. The current place in the story is 100 years ago. Souken may not even be born right now, and if he is, he would be substantially too young to be on SS's radar.

There is already too much going on to involve the Quincy, which is fine with me.
[hr]

I haven't been around in a while, so I dunno how many times this has been brought up, but I believe the way the bodies began to react looked like Ichigo's own original Hollowfication.

I am sure it probably has, but it is not bad to hear such opinions again. ;) It looks somewhat like Ichigo's transformation, but like with Ichigo, their souls/psyche were destabilizing. It may have been just how Kubo draws people in overwhelmingly maddening agony.

poopoomaru
May 03, 2008, 03:40 AM
As far as comments about Aizen not fully being a "bad" guy, I think that is not only true, but an obvious and very necessary attribute for any good antagonist to have. All out " I am going to kill the whole planet just because!" or " I am going to rule the universe because I just feel like it!" aren't that interesting or complex. The best way to describe Aizen as we know it is that he a a man who will, and has the ability, to go to any means to reach his goals. It rather strange actually, how defined his determination is set into his character when the goal of that determination is such a fuzzy thing to try and get a grasp on at this point in the manga. All we have are these short references to the Royal Family split out amongst the expanse of the end of the SS arc till now.

As far as the Vizards, I think that however they did in fact achieve their Hollowification, that it was against their own will or in such a way that it was not the choice they wanted. We forget that the Vizards hate shinigami, the only moment we have ever seen a serious side of Hiyori and Shinji together is when Hiyori remarks about how she hates shinigami, to which Shinji simply says "I know...". It is also remarked elsewhere that the Vizard were rejected by both the shinigami and the hollows. The kind of picture that paints that kind of hurt to me can only be one of betrayal, being thrown out of the institution that you believed in because of something that was no fault of your own.

patedecarne
May 03, 2008, 10:46 AM
about the hollowification, yes, I believe is something like Ichigo, but like I said before, if only a couple of people saw this hollowification, then The Vaizards could just hide this fact, don't you think? the highest people on SS wouldn't be aware from that, unless, the vaizards mind had changed so well to just hate shinigamis and flee from SS...


This aspect is still very unclear at this point, but I also believe that all the 8 vaizards did the same training, but not on SS...

Devil-buster
May 03, 2008, 06:41 PM
about the hollowification, yes, I believe is something like Ichigo, but like I said before, if only a couple of people saw this hollowification, then The Vaizards could just hide this fact, don't you think? the highest people on SS wouldn't be aware from that, unless, the vaizards mind had changed so well to just hate shinigamis and flee from SS...


This aspect is still very unclear at this point, but I also believe that all the 8 vaizards did the same training, but not on SS...

Well I dont think the hollowification is completely similar to ichigo's...because ichigo's hollowification took place simultaneously with his shinigamification...so the Vizards could have only been formed due to the hougyoku since they were already captain level shinigamis....and since Urahara was exciled for this incident...it is only natural to assume that the highers ups knew of the incident...However it is also natural for newer captains to not be awareof it since it might have been kept in secrecy similar to the kyubi in naruto....sorry for the comparison just makin a point....that is why byakuya was surprised when he saw ichigo's mask....

Oh the hotness...http://foto.rambler.ru/public/m/i/minispell/4/Yoruichi_Nyan_1130921832586/Yoruichi_Nyan_1130921832586-web.jpg

Hada-Kun
May 03, 2008, 07:17 PM
Well I dont think the hollowification is completely similar to ichigo's...because ichigo's hollowification took place simultaneously with his shinigamification...so the Vizards could have only been formed due to the hougyoku since they were already captain level shinigamis....and since Urahara was exciled for this incident...it is only natural to assume that the highers ups knew of the incident...However it is also natural for newer captains to not be awareof it since it might have been kept in secrecy similar to the kyubi in naruto....sorry for the comparison just makin a point....that is why byakuya was surprised when he saw ichigo's mask....

Oh the hotness...http://foto.rambler.ru/public/m/i/minispell/4/Yoruichi_Nyan_1130921832586/Yoruichi_Nyan_1130921832586-web.jpg

Uhm, No. Hollowification -- the removal of the barrier between hollow and shinigami -- does not need to be done via the hougyoku. the hougyoku just happens to be a way of doing it 100% instantly.

Additionally, re-read the chapters where ichigo gains his 'own' shinigami powers particularly about how the only way he can get his powers is since the place he is is falling apart (barrier, etc). Please make your own personal decisions off of that.

This is only a rebuttal to your comment on vizards needing hougyoku, or that ichigo's transformation is all that special or any different than anothers.

fistsofrage
May 04, 2008, 12:25 AM
Well I dont think the hollowification is completely similar to ichigo's...because ichigo's hollowification took place simultaneously with his shinigamification...so the Vizards could have only been formed due to the hougyoku since they were already captain level shinigamis....and since Urahara was exciled for this incident...it is only natural to assume that the highers ups knew of the incident...However it is also natural for newer captains to not be awareof it since it might have been kept in secrecy similar to the kyubi in naruto....sorry for the comparison just makin a point....that is why byakuya was surprised when he saw ichigo's mask....

Oh the hotness...http://foto.rambler.ru/public/m/i/minispell/4/Yoruichi_Nyan_1130921832586/Yoruichi_Nyan_1130921832586-web.jpg

Urahara was exiled for the creation of that spiritual energy sucking gigai. It's kind of suspicious that he was only reprimanded for that and not the hougyoku or any of the other things he did. And you have to wonder whether shinji and co were turned into vaizards by Urahara or some special circumstances which is why we're so interested in this gaiden not to mention finding out the motives of aizen and co and why they came to be their badass selves.

Devil-buster
May 04, 2008, 10:19 AM
Urahara was exiled for the creation of that spiritual energy sucking gigai. It's kind of suspicious that he was only reprimanded for that and not the hougyoku or any of the other things he did. And you have to wonder whether shinji and co were turned into vaizards by Urahara or some special circumstances which is why we're so interested in this gaiden not to mention finding out the motives of aizen and co and why they came to be their badass selves.

OH you r right...urahara was exiled for creating the untraceable gigai....which is funny...because I thought that losing shinigami powers is nothing compared to turning in half hollow....this brings up another question...if urahara was still captain when the hougyoku was used and sealed then he had to let someone else know where i was hidden for it to be protected...and I believe the people Urahara told is Ukitake and shunsui....it makes sense they r both freethinkers and it may be why they went out of their way to stop rukia's execution....interesting....this means Urahara didnt trust Yamamoto to make the right decision....may be he would have killed rukia to get the Hougyoku, because he feels it is safer with him....soul society is more twisted than hueco mundo....no wonder people like aisen, gin and tousen exist....

patedecarne
May 05, 2008, 07:03 AM
yes, it's very suspicious about Urahara's true reasons to be banned; My guess is that the rulers of SS still are keeping some secrets about it;

Maybe hiding Hougyoku or any other reason could be the only way to avoid some discussions or comments that somehow, could be bad to SS;

What if a great number of people on SS get interested in Hougyoku, if by any chance they come to find out this device? A great worry to SS, if you ask me...

ShaunMati1
May 05, 2008, 11:49 AM
I agree, urahara being exiled just for the gigai is surprising. He obviously didn't trust many people in soul society which makes sense that there are so many traitors and people who have left. What im most interested in is those 3 shadowy figures. Ive been thinking about it and what if isnt urahara or aizen or anyone we expect. Doesnt that seem to easy to figure out? I was thinking that either Aizen or Urahara sent 3 people he knew to just go and test on those people that way urahara and aizen will have a scapegoat or an excuse saying that they were some where else while it was taking place. I cant see aizen doing something like this just because its a bit too early. I do though see aizen blaming this event on shinji so aizen can become captain next. I think that if that were the case shinji would love to get aizen back and ask urahara for help which leads to the hollow in shinji. Just a speculation tho.

Hopefully there is a chapter this week :).

Tsukisama
May 05, 2008, 12:05 PM
Hopefully there is a chapter this week :).

Hopefully there will be. Golden Week ends on Tuesday (there was a 4-day holiday weekend in Japan); so Kubo probably has been working a little on -103 last week and has enough completed for it to be published this week.

As for the circumstances surrounding Urahara's exile, I am sure that there is more to it than just the gigai, especially now given all of the secrecy that has been shown in the governance of SS in this gaiden. The knowledge of the Hougyoku definitely is something that SS would want to cover up for the obvious reasons of preventing others from getting any ideas about using it.

One thing I have been wondering about for a long time is whether SS had a hand in Urahara's creation of the Hougyoku like perhaps he was secretly ordered to create such thing by the Central 46. My crazy idea continues that Urahara eventually found the project questionable (as did SS) and was quietly exiled to get rid of any trace of it, making Urahara the silent scapegoat. Just another theory on this; I can't wait for the gaiden to continue. :amuse

Kyuzo
May 05, 2008, 12:17 PM
How many of chapters of "Turn Back the Pendulum" are there going to be until they go back to the main story?

Look here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29387)

Thanks, didn't realize there was a thread with the info (didn't know what a gaiden was either). Seems like a pretty arbitrary time to jump into a gaiden, in Naruto they at least did it at the end of an arc. Its a nice break from the mindless swordplay of the past months at least, however.

Eye of the tiger
May 05, 2008, 06:14 PM
How many of chapters of "Turn Back the Pendulum" are there going to be until they go back to the main story?

Look here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29387)

Thanks, didn't realize there was a thread with the info (didn't know what a gaiden was either). Seems like a pretty arbitrary time to jump into a gaiden, in Naruto they at least did it at the end of an arc. Its a nice break from the mindless swordplay of the past months at least, however.

Yo, the swordplay ain't pointless.. blood and slashing constitute the adrenalin rush, the whole point!!

BTW.. Urahara doing things that are questionable because SS or central 46 asked him is an interesting theory, but still, it seems Urahara is too independent and curious to just follow orders.. but he definitely has some connection above and beyond the central 46.. I have said before, he's probably someone from the Royal palace/family because he knows just about anything and everything there is to know about each of these realms and the powers within..

but getting back to the thread of discussion.. Next chapter is going to be introduction of Hacchi and the beginning of the vizardification accident/experiment..

genkizen
May 05, 2008, 06:33 PM
How many of chapters of "Turn Back the Pendulum" are there going to be until they go back to the main story?

Look here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29387)

Thanks, didn't realize there was a thread with the info (didn't know what a gaiden was either). Seems like a pretty arbitrary time to jump into a gaiden, in Naruto they at least did it at the end of an arc. Its a nice break from the mindless swordplay of the past months at least, however.

Actually, this gaiden happened right b4 a colossal battle is about to happen, the likes of which hasn't been scene since the second half of the rescue rukia arc, and even then the fights all began in a staggered time frame. unlike here where everyone just converged on the same place at the same time.

With regards to the phantom silhouettes of the three mystery guys, at first I thought the guy in the middle had a giant fro, but upon closer inspection the edges are kind of pointed, separated equally which makes me think it is a actually an umbrella...not as awesome as a giant fro...

mdp
May 05, 2008, 07:02 PM
I really hope to see some vizardization! Hey sorry to ask but is it confirmed that there will be a chapter this week? 103?

jdk76
May 06, 2008, 02:01 AM
it's urahara mayuri and yuoroichi

remember she dips soon too, 100 years....and it looks like a chick, slender and shorter

Ceestar
May 06, 2008, 03:36 AM
(hello, I've been lurking manga helpers for a long time, thought I'd finally join)

I'm loving this gaiden at the moment, especially since some of the other characters started popping up in child form. It's really awesome to see how much they've changed (except Gin.. he hasn't changed at all...).

With those shadowy figures. Is one of them holding an umbrella? That was my first thought, or is it a large black whole created by whatever experiment they are doing?
As to who it is... I have my doubts about it being Kisuke or Aizen.
Kisuke I don't think would go to such extremes as to killing random people for his own amusement. Well not so much amusement, but kinda just for tests I can't see him using souls from Rukongai just to test. But I guess you never know.
Aizen still seems to have some innocence in him at the point. I don't think he could hide something like this yet, at the moment with his position as Liet. I don't see him doing something that is causing this much stir. But it's Aizen... I wouldn't put anything past him. (I say this because of how Shinji had no problem showing where Aizen was hiding, I just think there are a fair amount of people in Soul Society right now that are potentially stronger than Aizen. At the moment.)

What I'm looking forward to most in the rest of this Gaiden is seeing more characters at a younger age, that's always fun :p

(Random thought, this really has nothing to do with the storyline and wouldn't make a huge difference. But I wonder if Izuru's parents were killed in these experiments. I mean it's a long shot, but one of the souls that were killed had similar hair to Izuru so it just sparked a thought. Not saying "OMG! Same hair! Must be related!" It was just a random thought because Izuru is my favourite character.
Only problem with this theory is that Izu's from a family of lesser nobility right? So he probably didn't live in Rukongai?)

patedecarne
May 06, 2008, 07:40 AM
First. Welcome to MH, Ceestar!

Even if a chapter comes up this week, I believe that will be so later, much probably about Friday or Monday in the next week; but look at the good side: will take so long to see another GW...

But I believe that in the next chapter we'll see at least one transformation...

And now, guys, what do you think about this question?

Exactly how those 3 people will be linked with the Vaizards? The way Kubo showed them is a huge hint they will take some role in the vaizards, but still I cannot think how they will be in the process...

Ceestar
May 06, 2008, 08:35 AM
Thank you so much for the kind welcome, patedecarne!

Once these experiements show some stability, I'm thinking that soon enough word will spread amoungst Sereitei of a way to increase your Shinigami abilities, and some Captains/Liet's hear and are interested. Thus of course the creation of the Vizards, and some Captains stay behind, not interested in trying to unlease their inner hollows (you know, Kyoraku-taichou and whoever is still there in the present storyline). Perphaps?

(I'm a little skimmish on the Vizards... so I apologise if I've got something wrong or am just stating the obvious)

jRam
May 06, 2008, 09:46 AM
i think those three shadows are urahara, aizen and yorouichi. but based from the 2nd page 2 of them don't have that kind of sandals that urahara have. this gaiden is pretty interesting i hope to see more than i expect.

gtbanuh
May 06, 2008, 10:11 AM
i disagree ceester. i think becoming a vizard will be somewhat of a natural phenomena, kind a like ichigo. maybe uharaha tampering with hollow powers will cause the hollow power in the now vizards to surface. maybe after that happens they will be ostracized from soul society. what i am more interested in is what part ichigo's dad plays in this.

ShaunMati1
May 06, 2008, 11:41 AM
I dont know it is too easy to assume that those 3 shadowy characters are urahara, and aizen. Part of having a great plot is not to make it predictable. Those 3 people might be a group we dont even expect. I mean i wouldnt be surprised if urahara was one of the or shinji or aizen, but it just seems too easy. Im thinking its just 3 random people who were sent by someone and were told what to do. I hope in these next few chapters we get to see the beginning of the vaizards or just to know who those 3 people were. it could be 3 prisoners from the maggots nest that urahara sent, who knows.

patedecarne
May 06, 2008, 11:48 AM
I'm also thinking that too; and I'm sure we'll see a great surprise about it; But Aizen and Urahara together is just so difficult to happen, because that would mean Urahara is a really evil person; I believe that Urahara is amoral, but not that evil to use only ordinary citizens in experiments, and even the others 10 shinigamis too;

Aizen in other hand is totally evil, then there's a possibility, but still, like ShaunMati1 said, would be so predictable

JioFreed666
May 06, 2008, 03:35 PM
Vote other:Urahara, Shinji and another Vizard.

KyanWan
May 06, 2008, 03:50 PM
i think those three shadows are urahara, aizen and yorouichi. but based from the 2nd page 2 of them don't have that kind of sandals that urahara have. this gaiden is pretty interesting i hope to see more than i expect.

Oh definitely. I was expecting to be ... bleh ... and sleeping thru the Gaiden ( I know with Anime, I hate those flashback things ... ) but this, this backstory - omg! It's killer. It rules, it's one of the better ones I've seen in my decade+ of anime, and 2 years of being a manga fan (*cough* noob *cough*) :P

And, give gtbanuh a nice warm welcome. Hallo. (/me swings around a dead rat, lol)

chrisb3
May 06, 2008, 06:02 PM
How many of chapters of "Turn Back the Pendulum" are there going to be until they go back to the main story?

Look here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29387)

Thanks, didn't realize there was a thread with the info (didn't know what a gaiden was either). Seems like a pretty arbitrary time to jump into a gaiden, in Naruto they at least did it at the end of an arc. Its a nice break from the mindless swordplay of the past months at least, however.

It IS at the end of an arc.

eddy26
May 07, 2008, 12:28 AM
What I hope to see revealed is who was the first person to become a vizard. I mean how exactly did that person figure out how to control the inner hollow? The first person is the most important. As for the three figures it is probably Shinji, Aizen, and Mayuri. Mayuri wouldn't care if people were getting killed during the experiment. Shinji and Aizen are both sneaky characters so it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't care either. I wouldn't be surprised if Shinji turns out to be as power hungry as Aizen is.

Ceestar
May 07, 2008, 01:22 AM
i disagree ceester. i think becoming a vizard will be somewhat of a natural phenomena, kind a like ichigo. maybe uharaha tampering with hollow powers will cause the hollow power in the now vizards to surface. maybe after that happens they will be ostracized from soul society. what i am more interested in is what part ichigo's dad plays in this.

Oooh true that sounds very possible too. With Bleach who knows, it could be something totally different too! The possibilities >___<

With the shadows I'm thinking ... either someone else we won't expect, or just someone new in general. Although I find it'll be more exciting for it to be someone we know, I guess it's like ShaunMati1 said it's a little easy. I mean I'm no manga-ka so I don't know, but you know when something is so obvious most of the time it turns out different?
(For me really in early soul society I was surprised Gin was evil because he was so obviously up to something I figured he wasn't behind any of what was happening at all, like he's so obviously evil... that he can't be sorta thing)

THETRUTH.com
May 07, 2008, 04:07 PM
I am starting to believe now that Urahara's research came in response to what Aizen was already doing. Before the time-skip during the gaiden we saw the start of E3(the evil 3) then the next scene we see is an experiment like if you read both chapters together they are connected. It seems probable to me that Urahara and Mayuri would be able to be much more effective and efficient in their research as they are the only two captains to head the R&D division. In addition they have the authority to experiment and research.

About Yoruichi being one of the 3 shadows her uniform and most in her squad look different below the knee.

@Ceestar
I know what you mean about Gin I thought the same thing also their were other things like suspecting the Genius Hitsugaya but after Gin vs Hitsu you knew it was Gin.