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KingPopo
May 08, 2008, 04:42 AM
Random Theory
we keep hearing that ichigo's hollow is a vastrolord , but what if.....he himself is a vastrolorde? OK before you flame my bleach blasphemy , hear my justifications .I believe that the Vaizards are the ever elusive Vastrolordes.
We can assume that a VastroLorde are extremely rare , and we know that they are hollows which resemble humans the most , BUT what if this was all a mistake WHAT IF hollow's highest levels are adjuchas , and the only way to obtain VastroLord staus is to become a Vaizard!! Grimmjow and his gang as we know were unable to reach the elusive status of Vastrolorde , but why? Shawlong suggeests their fate of never reaching VL was decided upon their hollowfication or even before that , or perhaps in reality the neverending cycle of eat or be eaten is redundant for growth , but is required to keep your status as an adjucha and to retard your descent back into mindlessness.
Also , one may be bring up Nell and Noitora search for the VL in HM , maybe Aizen was searching for his long lost captain , Shinji who he assumed would be residing in HM but in reality was residing in KaraKura......
or perhaps the Vaizards arent VL at all but instead VLs are humans who are granted hollow powers .... remind you of any tall spanish guy?
Criticism please!

gigantor21
May 08, 2008, 08:04 AM
I doubt it.

If the VLs were Vaizards, then they'd have to cross deep into Hollow territory to become Arrancar. Just getting to the point we're at now, with stable Arrancar/Vaizards, took several decades of research, so a Shinigami-->Arrancar shift is a HUGE stretch. From a narrative standpoint, it sounds way too convoluted; VLs being powerful Menos makes more sense. I don't see why Kubo would muddle the hybrid concept when Aizen has a strong enough connection with Shinji and Co. as it is--and Shinij and Co. hanging out in HM, which isn't amenable to human residence, is just as unlikely.

Of course, this is based on my theory that the top 3 (and Ulquiorra, possibly) are Vastorodes. But the idea isn't viable either way IMO.

Moki
May 08, 2008, 03:04 PM
I don't really see how that could work out or how kubo would even try to include it..

We already know alot about menos. It's been made pretty clear how a menos is formed, but it's still unclear how it can progress from adjuchas to vastolorde.. Saying the vaizards are vastolordes screws up the idea that vastolordes are a supclass of menos.

And on that note.. I don't really get how inner hollows can even be classified as any type of menos.. They didn't form like we know a menos does. And well, not only would it make more sense (atleast to me) if they were an intirely new class of hollow on their own, provided that they can actually be considered pure hollows ofcourse, but it would also make them that much cooler.. :amuse although, obviously, you can compare their strenght as much as you'd like :P

But we haven't really been told that much about either vastolordes or inner hollows yet so the story could go either way.Hopefully the vaizards well be fleshed out a bit more soon :)

gold349
May 08, 2008, 03:39 PM
Naa I can not see that , it doesn't fit with the story line of bleach. hollows bad souls which go to hueco mondo feed on other hollows, in time becoming menos grande. Certain menos grande thus turn in to aduachas and so on and so on. Its hollow evolution but I think that a strong hollow with its own strong personality which doesn't allow itself to mix with other hollows once it starts to feed on other hollows and mantains its own will and personality are the ones destined to become vastrolordes, those that didn't lose them self from the very start when consuming other hollows.

Its even clearer when you look at the present vaizards they was shinigami with no trait of hollow (no mask) they went through a process allowing themselves to becoming hollow but the technique allows them to with stand that side. They never consumed other souls or hollows, you have to be hollow from beginning. You either go to heuco mondo or soul society that's where your destiny begins one or the other.

KingPopo
May 09, 2008, 02:14 AM
But all you guys are assuming that VastroLorde are a subclass of hollows , but isnt it strange that we havent seen a single one till now . I'm not saying that shinigamis are becoming arrancars , im saying that this so called VastroLorde class which till now , no one has seen could possibly been a mistake from the hollowish look of the shinigami...

gold349
May 09, 2008, 03:55 AM
But all you guys are assuming that VastroLorde are a subclass of hollows , but isnt it strange that we havent seen a single one till now . I'm not saying that shinigamis are becoming arrancars , im saying that this so called VastroLorde class which till now , no one has seen could possibly been a mistake from the hollowish look of the shinigami...

We are not the only ones, check Griimjows flashback even they them selves talk of how one becomes vastolord. Its hollow subclass, they would have seen a vastolord and wanted to achieve that stage of evolution them selves.

gfire2
May 09, 2008, 04:11 AM
im stickin to my theory that once a shinagami fails to take over the hollow they become vastolords. and using the hyogoku makes them look like ichigo's hollow from the inner world on the outer appearance

Yans86
May 10, 2008, 08:52 AM
Absolutely wrong!Shinji,Ichigo and co are the only Vizard.Is stated that Vastolord are the upper Hollow lvl,which are : simple hollow, menos, gillian, adjuchas and Vastolord.Arrancar and Vizard are different...Vizard are shinigami with hollow power and Arrancar are Hollow with shinigami power thanks to the hougyoku.
Ps
An Arrancar can be created,transforming a menos,an adjucha or even a Vastolorde....

Darek Khort
May 11, 2008, 04:59 AM
It's a possibility. You just never know. The fact that nobody has seen a vastolorde (or at least that we currently know of) you can't rule OP's idea out just yet.
No offence to any religious people but it is just like saying God exists. Nobody can prove it, but at the same time nobody can disprove it.
Vastolorde don't necessarily have to be a stronger class of hollows. It could very well be a belief by all hollows that a higher/stronger being exists.

Yans86
May 11, 2008, 09:14 AM
Please....everybody.....read bleach before posting! http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/

Darek Khort
May 12, 2008, 02:26 AM
What?
What exactly does that prove? Hitsugaya is the one talking here. He could well be wrong. You can't always take everybody's words as truth and nothing but the truth.
Hinamori took Aizen's word to heart and look what happened?
SS took Aizen's actions on Orihime as meaning she was important and look what happened?

You gotta ask yourself; where did Hitsugaya get this information? It could very well be legend. Has Hitsugaya met a VL before?

nordicbattlesigns
May 12, 2008, 03:48 AM
Random Theory
we keep hearing that ichigo's hollow is a vastrolord , but what if.....he himself is a vastrolorde? OK before you flame my bleach blasphemy , hear my justifications .I believe that the Vaizards are the ever elusive Vastrolordes.
We can assume that a VastroLorde are extremely rare , and we know that they are hollows which resemble humans the most , BUT what if this was all a mistake WHAT IF hollow's highest levels are adjuchas , and the only way to obtain VastroLord staus is to become a Vaizard!! Grimmjow and his gang as we know were unable to reach the elusive status of Vastrolorde , but why? Shawlong suggeests their fate of never reaching VL was decided upon their hollowfication or even before that , or perhaps in reality the neverending cycle of eat or be eaten is redundant for growth , but is required to keep your status as an adjucha and to retard your descent back into mindlessness.
Also , one may be bring up Nell and Noitora search for the VL in HM , maybe Aizen was searching for his long lost captain , Shinji who he assumed would be residing in HM but in reality was residing in KaraKura......
or perhaps the Vaizards arent VL at all but instead VLs are humans who are granted hollow powers .... remind you of any tall spanish guy?
Criticism please!


Intriguing notion! But seeing that talk of justifications – it’s a pity that there are none here! We have a good deal of speculation, many ifs and buts, but nothing from the manga that actually supports the idea. How does any of this actually support the idea of vizard equals vasterode?


What?
What exactly does that prove? Hitsugaya is the one talking here. He could well be wrong. You can't always take everybody's words as truth and nothing but the truth.
Hinamori took Aizen's word to heart and look what happened?
SS took Aizen's actions on Orihime as meaning she was important and look what happened?

You gotta ask yourself; where did Hitsugaya get this information? It could very well be legend. Has Hitsugaya met a VL before?


Comparing Aizen’s deceptions and misdirections to this particular item of knowledge is very much apples and oranges.

Hitsugaya will be relating shinigami lore concerning hollows here, and this scarcely needs to be from first-hand experience. As a Captain he will have access to much information – experienced or learned, either way he is not just talking out his ass. Whether the finer points of detail are essentially correct, that may be debatable. But that there are stronger strains of hollows than Adjuchas existing in Hueco Mundo, there is no good reason for this to be fabricated. Besides, Toshiro is not the most imaginative of shinigami and has no reason to make it up.

Further, we have Grimmjow’s flashbacks in chapters 284 and 285 in which he and his followers are eating their way up the menos food chain with ambitions of being Vasterodes/Vastolordes. THEY name them as being a more potent class of hollow – also by that name.

So if both Soul Society and Hueco Mundo INDEPENDENTLY understand that a more powerful strain of hollow exists, and is called a Vastolorde, then the reasonable conclusion is that this is correct. Kubo Tite gave us both sides, that should be enough.

Besides, we have Aizen himself talking of gathering the Vastolordes (to Gin if memory serves). If he mean to gather ex-captains with hollow traits and powers, he could have said as much without any obfuscation – with Gin he has no need to beat around the bush.

Besides, we have Aizen himself talking of gathering the Vastolordes and USING that term for them. If he meant to gather ex-Captains with hollow powers, he could have said as much without obfuscation – with Gin, whom he was talking to – there is no need to beat around the bush.



In a random oddity, the three people here supporting the idea all sport the same flag on the poster information. We don’t have a sockpuppet on our hands, do we?

alias85
May 12, 2008, 02:37 PM
What?
What exactly does that prove? Hitsugaya is the one talking here. He could well be wrong. You can't always take everybody's words as truth and nothing but the truth.
Hinamori took Aizen's word to heart and look what happened?
SS took Aizen's actions on Orihime as meaning she was important and look what happened?

You gotta ask yourself; where did Hitsugaya get this information? It could very well be legend. Has Hitsugaya met a VL before?

lol....what?
you're argument is full of fail. you're basically saying you can't believe anything any character says until it actually happens. Aizen's lies were part of the plot, you can't compare what Aizen says to what other shinigami say.

gigantor21
May 12, 2008, 08:37 PM
^ Agreed, but watch the tone.

The "we can't take dialouge as gospel" concept is one you hear for several different series. But while we can't confirm Hitsu's words on faith alone, we can't disprove them for the exact same reasons. Same with GJ and Co. But I don't see why Kubo would lie about that when it would convolute the story so badly. :/

patedecarne
May 13, 2008, 09:48 AM
About the information given by Hitsugaya, there's so many possibilities here: The one I believe is that some time in the past, a younger Yammamoto and others captains went in a mission on HM and then eventually they crossed paths with a strange Menos, different from the giant and brainless Menos they usually fought(Gillian) and also different from one degree more advanced and more rare(Adjuchas) Menos;


Then, just thinking that this "new" Menos was just a ordinary one, this Shinigami squad attacked it, but in a surprise, this Menos defeated(and possibly) killed all the Shinigamis, and Yammamoto, already being stronger, was able to fight equally, or at best, flee from it;

Arriving in SS, Yammamoto then told everything he saw in HM, so this new Menos was named Vastolorde, but in the future mission, not a single Vastolorde was seen again, that's why SS believes they're so rare;

Of course that's just one of many possibilities, but I think Hitsugaya said that information with some solid proof...