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xi0
May 16, 2008, 03:11 AM
-102 is out, get it HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=865938#post865938)

Discuss away.

Darek Khort
May 16, 2008, 03:13 AM
Wow, this chapter was good!

I really liked how Yama sent all the would-be-Vizard's to check out the situation. And Kensei's transformation looks really, really good. I can't wait for the would-be destruction and massacre that follows when all of them start transforming. >__<

I don't see how this will all end in 2 chapters though...Kubo either has to rush everything and have generic 1-2 panel fights with a lot of low-level cannon fodder/shinigami dying; and then a quick getaway by Vizard, Urahara and co.
I can't imagine Kubo doing that in 2 chapters.
And then there's Tessai. I'm assuming he'll be involved by Hachigen when he almost dies (and thus starting the hollow transformation). Urahara will probably save Hachigen or somehow control him and Tessai will be forever grateful to Urahara, thus why he now serves under Urahara.

Or perhaps Tessai is sent in to seal the Vizards whilst in transformation so they don't harm anybody else and Urahara decides to whisk them all away to save them from SS's wrath.

link777
May 16, 2008, 03:32 AM
wait, kidoh division??? with the zero division we have 2 new ones, thats impressive O_o

kunai-knight
May 16, 2008, 04:06 AM
Oh right the guy from Urahara's shop. I thought he looked familiar. Can't wait to see what happens next though. As someone stated, Kensei's transformation is off the charts! One of the coolest things i've ever seen.

Looks like the experimenters were successful after all :) (Which i'm kind of dissapointed with kubo not showing us who they were, but i don't think there's room for their faces now until maybe the last panel in the last flashback)

I wonder how Urahara fits into all this

Ceestar
May 16, 2008, 04:09 AM
Oh wow what a chapter!!!
Tessai... man who would've thought, even Kyoraku-taichou seemed to be honoured in his pressence! I mean I guess I would never have doubted he was strong and what not, but I would never have guessed this!

I assume it won't take long to get through this because judging by the Shinigami that are sent and Kensei's transformation, we can all kinda assume what's going to happen. We just need to find out now how they go from THAT to Vizards.

Ah!! Very exciting chapter indeed, much earlier than expected!! Oooh so exciting! Kyoraku-taichou is so kind, but I wonder if he's living with some regret of sending his Liet off like that.

drakend
May 16, 2008, 04:17 AM
Anyway I don't understand who could be strong enough to stab a CAPTAIN from behind. The most obvious guy is Aizen, but at that time he was still a vice-captain so he shouldn't have been able to own Kensei so easily.
Nine years before the current events Shinji managed to dispel Aizen's shikai quite easily so I don't think Aizen was on captain's level at that time. This unless Aizen was faking his weakness all this time along and he was already above captain-class level. The best explanation is that Aizen is a vastroode arrancar himself who managed to sneak into SS and suppressed his hollow reiatsu somehow, IMHO.

wrstljr
May 16, 2008, 04:28 AM
So this chapter more or less confrimed Nanao (Shunsui's current vice) is Risa's (His old vice) sister. Not only do the two look extremely similar but they even have similar Shikais...

Don't believe me?

We already know Nanao's is a book...but we know nothing about Risa's right? WRONG!


http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.7/12/

BOOM! Second to last panel...they both carry Book-like shikais...Kubo Tite sometimes you say so much saying so little.

bokbokchui
May 16, 2008, 04:38 AM
i m sorry but it should be -101 predictions not -103, please change that~

as for the chapter Tessei n the Kidoh Division is so COOOOL, and for some reason Shunsui looks quite evil.

Bakatron
May 16, 2008, 04:48 AM
It occurs to me that this probably explains why Shunsui is so protective of Nanao in the present day - he doesn't want to lose another Lieutenant.

AnimeLoverX
May 16, 2008, 05:00 AM
What? Shunsui's old Vice was lost during this Battle? i THOUGHT it was the same girl o_O

bradz22
May 16, 2008, 05:02 AM
i am in the same opinion as ceestar/. didn't really expect him to be uh so "powerful and respected" by even kyourakou shunsui.

kluzman
May 16, 2008, 05:26 AM
Yeah there has been something bothering me for a long time now about Tessai and this revelation of his rank answers it quite well...

Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/61/16/) if i'm not mistaken he is casting a #99 bakudou wich is quite a skill if Aizen had troubles in the early 90's.. But now that we now he is the kidoh captain it makes some sense ^^ If Tite planned that from the beggining I'm very very impressed ^^

And we might get a glimpse of shinji's shikai or bankai next chapter! That'd be just great ^^

Zeus-Tails
May 16, 2008, 06:23 AM
Something seems strange. Why would Kyoraku randomly volunteer his lieutenant? Is there something special she has or maybe something special Kyoraku has in store? I hope it's not just Tite's lame way of getting Risa a reason to get all the would-be Vizards together.

Illmikey
May 16, 2008, 06:24 AM
I was so lost when 8th Divivision Captain Shunsui Kyoraku sent Lisa Yadomaru because I thought she was the present 8th Lieutenant Ise Nanao.

They look so alike :p

qwerty1
May 16, 2008, 06:34 AM
that was def the first time we seen kensei's hollow right??? right??? i havent forgotten right???

plus kensei looks like he would fit nicely in resistance haha :D:D man cant wait for next chapter!!!

gigantor21
May 16, 2008, 06:44 AM
Something seems strange. Why would Kyoraku randomly volunteer his lieutenant? Is there something special she has or maybe something special Kyoraku has in store? I hope it's not just Tite's lame way of getting Risa a reason to get all the would-be Vizards together.

Exactly what I was thinking. Tessai >>> Lisa, given that he's THE HEAD OF AN ENTIRE BRANCH. Getting Lisa hybridized, and showing that Tessai is the head of the division without getting him involved yet, must've been the only reason.

And it looks as though Tessai and Urahara had no prior friendship now. Shunsui said he rarely comes out in public, so I doubt he'd know a new Captain very well when they aren't even in the same branch. I'm just wondering how Tessai will be involved now.

Darek Khort
May 16, 2008, 06:47 AM
Yea it should be the first time we see his hollowified self.
With the things jutting out of his body, I wonder if just like Ichigo's random extending-mouth/randomthing during his transformation Kensei will shoot all the other would-be Vizards in a one-hit-"kill" by blasting those things on his back at them. That would definately allow for Kubo to fit the rest of this in 2 chapters; but it'd be a rather quick battle...

bokbokchui
May 16, 2008, 07:14 AM
Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/61/16/) if i'm not mistaken he is casting a #99 bakudou wich is quite a skill if Aizen had troubles in the early 90's.. But now that we now he is the kidoh captain it makes some sense ^^ If Tite planned that from the beggining I'm very very impressed ^^

I think Aizen had a hard time casting the early 90s because he was doing it without incantation and also its a offensive spell then a defensive spell so i assume it is harder.


Something seems strange. Why would Kyoraku randomly volunteer his lieutenant? Is there something special she has or maybe something special Kyoraku has in store? I hope it's not just Tite's lame way of getting Risa a reason to get all the would-be Vizards together.
Now i reread the chapter again i feel Shunsui is letting his lieutenant go part to comfort urahara and to demonstrate a proper captain should have trust on not only his fellow captains but also his Lieutenant.

ps. then again i could be completely wrong and Shunshui turn out to be one of the 3 shadow figure. i wouldn't mind that twist at all though!!

hill_mie87
May 16, 2008, 07:56 AM
ha ha. i think i can actually see where the current arc is going. It's gonna tell the origin of all vaizards. I mean, it's pretty obvious that those sent for the rescue team are the vaizards in the the current time. That's my prediction though. Perhaps, Uruhara will do something, and this very arc will show why he was banished from soul society. Sorry if someone has mentioned this before. I don't regularly follow the forum. Only post if i can think of something interesting to share. This also means that, they're facing a very powerful enemies, that all rescuers will be at some point defeated (or infected with that hollowfication thinggy) if you like. Cheers!

Splat
May 16, 2008, 07:57 AM
Anyway I don't understand who could be strong enough to stab a CAPTAIN from behind. The most obvious guy is Aizen, but at that time he was still a vice-captain so he shouldn't have been able to own Kensei so easily.
Nine years before the current events Shinji managed to dispel Aizen's shikai quite easily so I don't think Aizen was on captain's level at that time. This unless Aizen was faking his weakness all this time along and he was already above captain-class level. The best explanation is that Aizen is a vastroode arrancar himself who managed to sneak into SS and suppressed his hollow reiatsu somehow, IMHO.

Aizen cannot possibly be the one performing the experiments. he clearly states during his grand exit speech that he experimented with shinigami-hollows and that the best he managed was hollows that could hide their reiatsu, and hollows that could merge with shinigami. If Aizen had managed to achieve a pefect hollow shinigami hybrid way back here then he would have disappeared with his hollow powers right away. He also says as he's leaving that urahara kisuke was the only person not bound by stupidity and morals and that he was the one who created a substance that could instantly dissolve the barrier between shinigami and hollow. This means that whoever the attacker is, they are working with urahara.

If Aizen had managed to find out by himself how to become a vaizard why would he wait for so long to steal the hougyoku, it wouldn't make sense.

Also, the vaizards won't take on their hollow transformations all at the same time. When ichigo was in his full hollow state someone asked who took the longest to defeat their inner hollow, i.e who was being taken over by their hollow while they tried to defeat them for the longest. And they knew the answer to this, if they had all transformed at the same time they wouldn't have a concept of how long each of them had taken, they have to have transformed seperately.

hill_mie87
May 16, 2008, 08:01 AM
Wait, somehow i think it's interesting if Ichigo's dad make an appearance in this arc too. It's possible though. Unless of course, he became a shinigami like how ichigo become one. A human turn shinigami, instead of a dead-soul becoming shinigami. Just another random thought though. Anyway. Bleach Rawk!
[hr]
and dont forget those boy and girl from uruhara shop too! *wink* :)

Splat
May 16, 2008, 08:05 AM
It makes more sense now as to why aizen would experiment with shinigami hollows, rather than hollow shinigamis, even though he is attempting to become a hollow shinigami hybrid. He saw how badly it went for the current people experimenting with hollow shinigamis, and decided that it would be more secretive to create shinigami hollows, because noone would miss the hollows if they were destroyed.

kalerab
May 16, 2008, 08:24 AM
Wait, somehow i think it's interesting if Ichigo's dad make an appearance in this arc too. It's possible though. Unless of course, he became a shinigami like how ichigo become one. A human turn shinigami, instead of a dead-soul becoming shinigami. Just another random thought though. Anyway. Bleach Rawk!
<hr noshade size="1">
and dont forget those boy and girl from uruhara shop too! *wink* :)

Jinta and Ururu are probably something like Kon. Remember Ururu´s ass-kicking mode? She was like some machine which turned on one of her function.

patedecarne
May 16, 2008, 09:10 AM
Excellent chapter!
Even without action, it was perfect, and I hope Kubo could keep the good job in the remaining chapters;

I'm so sad about Lisa, just trying to help... but was great;

And this crisis in SS is even bigger than the last one with Ryokas en Aizen; and I'm wondering if Aizen is the true reason for this crisis too!

Then just one person changed all the Soul Society..
two times, hehe

NNNUUUHHHHHHH!!!!

Mythsoul
May 16, 2008, 09:50 AM
awesome chapter...it's all coming together...how all those old captains became hollows....and how will they control it......I wonder who's gonna help them do that ....Urahara perhaps...

genkizen
May 16, 2008, 10:08 AM
Oh boy, oh boy!! Im really wondering how this is all going to end. It's looking like everyone is going to be Vizardized at the same place and same time, but how? I can't imagine the guy who stabbed Kensei get away with it when there are atleast 3 captains and 2 VC's there, or can he?

koruma
May 16, 2008, 10:13 AM
This chapter is just awesome! Everything is coming together so nicely :) Btw I disagree with Zeus, I don't think it's a lame way to put Lisa in the story. As Yama-jii stated its the worst scenario SS ever faced, so what's the big deal with protecting someone of Tessai's importance? And even if it was just a coincidence, they happen also ^^
I'm pretty sure now that Urahara is involved with the stabber guy. Remember the 1st chapter? "This man is the key to everything" and he looked really bad about Hiyori going after knowing what happened to Kensei. My guess is that the stabber is just growing things and it's now out of Urahara's control.
And no, it's not Aizen :) Would be weird due to the already stated reasons at the topic, he didn't go that far on his experiments at Kisuke is more brilliant in this area :P
Cya,
krm

jocouslie
May 16, 2008, 10:25 AM
yes i agree this is bigger than almost all of what happened in the present time. anyway what i'm guessing is that mashiro(hollowified like kensei) will be there in the scene too and that she'll be facing hiyori while shinji faces kensei. rose and aikawa will soon get there and then maybe the culprit will also be there to stab them at the back but in the process they'll also know who the culprit is. what i'm puzzled about is that how can five captains be defeated. well the hollow kensei is really strong, but the culprits must also be there so that they can experiment with the captains as well.

conn-man
May 16, 2008, 10:27 AM
so if all these guys are going to be vizards that means they all have to enter that beserk hollow form like kensei is in now. my question is how are they gonna be stopped and/or take control of their hollow?

CheckMate
May 16, 2008, 10:29 AM
So those who went to the scene, all ended up as Vaizard. Interesting.

I wonder how Urahara and Tessai became friend though. Maybe in the end only Tessai and Kuroichi who simpatized to Urahara.

jocouslie
May 16, 2008, 10:36 AM
i think that's what the kidou group's responsibility, the controlling of hollowed versions of the shinigamis. the hollowed versions will be like on a rampage throughout seiretie but i think it would be in the campgrounds where the rampage begins. actually it already started based on this chapter. the 3 captains who'll stand guard in seiretei... one will die. and that's the sixth captain.

also i think the captains should let their vice captains go with them so that aizen doesn't have a choice to where he wanted to go.

wooticus
May 16, 2008, 10:52 AM
i dont think that seiretei gets involved too much.. we will have captains like ukitake und shunsui fight against aizen&co very soon, it would be stupid to let them fight in a flashback arc that is only story telling. maybe the 6th division captain will die, but notin a fight, only by the side, maybe yoruichi doesnt help him and so byakuya hates her.^^

here's my guess about whats happening futhermore:

all involved shinigami will be turned into hollows.
kisuke, yoruichi and tessi have followed them. just look at their faces.
yoruichi, wait for orders - she does what she wants, i think she is following kisuke
kisuke is heading their 100%, cause he feels guilty and he is curious
tessai: "ok, i take a rest", look at his face, he definetely goes there, i cant explain why, but he has ;).
maybe the three of them find a chance to make these shinigami-hollows into vizards... vizard.. hmmm... wizard?? kido is like a magic spell? wizards? i think tessai is the one who breaks the line between hollow and shinigami, kisuke helps him with mind and benihime.. and yoruichi.. maybe she has awesome reiatsu or she just needs to fight the hollows so that there is time for the others. all in all they get banished along with the wizards cause such people cant stay in soul society any longer.

moreover: for the forthcoming fight aizen vs ss i think that aizen wont fight yama, because they dont seem to have ANY relationship to each other. maybe yama will fight espada #1, the others fight the others and aizen will watch first. later he will be fought by all wizards, but they cant handle him.

jocouslie
May 16, 2008, 11:00 AM
well maybe this arc possibly may leave cliffhangers like who's the culprit? who's doing the experiments? the 3 silhouettes... one with an umbrella... the gigai that urahara created and its role in this arc....

den077
May 16, 2008, 11:01 AM
Also, the vaizards won't take on their hollow transformations all at the same time. When ichigo was in his full hollow state someone asked who took the longest to defeat their inner hollow, i.e who was being taken over by their hollow while they tried to defeat them for the longest. And they knew the answer to this, if they had all transformed at the same time they wouldn't have a concept of how long each of them had taken, they have to have transformed seperately.

What he said :amuse

Well if they didn't get their hollow powers there, maybe they'll be disgusted with how SS treats the whole ordeal, maybe Old Yama orders them to kill Kensei, which they don't want to, since they would prefer to help him overcome his hollow rather than killing their friend :darn

So Kensei who i'm guessing will overcome his hollow within the next two chapters will still get the boot since as you all know no Captain can have hollow powers. The other 7 soon-to-be-Vizards leave (I'm guessing at their own will) with Urahara (who I'm guessing played a huge part in this whole thing) and Yoruichi, then they decide to acquire hollow powers as well :D

Ah, I like this chapter, can't wait for next week to come~

drakend
May 16, 2008, 11:53 AM
he clearly states during his grand exit speech that he experimented with shinigami-hollows and that the best he managed was hollows that could hide their reiatsu, and hollows that could merge with shinigami.

Aizen's speeches are no evidence: I mean he could say anything he likes and/or only a part of the truth. For first he's aware of the possibility to turn shinigami into hollows so nothing denies the possibility he tried to make experiments on shinigami first. Perhaps he abadoned that possibility because the outcome - the vaizard - turned out to be uncontrollable and he then switched to hybridinzing hollows which can be controlled through fear. If it's this way then Iceringer's explanation about the reason hollows were following a shinigami would make very sense: because he's fearless and that means being a god from a being born from fear point of view.



If Aizen had managed to achieve a pefect hollow shinigami hybrid way back here then he would have disappeared with his hollow powers right away. He also says as he's leaving that urahara kisuke was the only person not bound by stupidity and morals and that he was the one who created a substance that could instantly dissolve the barrier between shinigami and hollow. This means that whoever the attacker is, they are working with urahara.

Urahara created the Hougyoku, but there is AT LEAST one more way to hybridize shinigamis or hollows. This means that at a certain time several hundreds of years ago a very unique vastroode could have managed to strip off of his mask within the depth of Hueco Mundo, acquiring unbelievable amounts of powers. This wouldn't mean he could take on the entire universe alone: if this was the case then the Bleach storyline wouldn't have even existed.



If Aizen had managed to find out by himself how to become a vaizard why would he wait for so long to steal the hougyoku, it wouldn't make sense.

The hybridization doesn't require the hougyoku: it's only one of the possible ways. We're unware of how many ways there are to become hybrids, but the hougyoku isn't the only way for sure. Besides you're assuming Aizen is a shinigami: as I said he could be a vastroode who striped off his mask on his own. Aizen may be something similiar to the concept commonly known as "perfect hybrid": this is what Ichigo is becoming too most likely, coming from the opposite direction tough.



Also, the vaizards won't take on their hollow transformations all at the same time. When ichigo was in his full hollow state someone asked who took the longest to defeat their inner hollow, i.e who was being taken over by their hollow while they tried to defeat them for the longest. And they knew the answer to this, if they had all transformed at the same time they wouldn't have a concept of how long each of them had taken, they have to have transformed seperately.
The fact they know how much time each one took to subdue their own hollow doesn't mean they aren't going to be trasformed into hybrids all together. Perhaps they managed to dispel the hollow temporarily, like Ichigo did more than one time.

TheChosenOne
May 16, 2008, 12:02 PM
Just read the chapter, Kubo continues to impress, was just an awesome chapter. Didn't get to see Kensie in action, but all the info was more than enough. Tessai being the head was unexpected, I though Hachigen would, but it worked out well. I wonder if all 6 of them have their vizard transformation in the coming moments. :)

someguy0830
May 16, 2008, 12:05 PM
Next chapter's battle should be epic. Methinks Kensei is going to do some damage.

patedecarne
May 16, 2008, 12:30 PM
But will Shini fight against frankstein Kensei? Fro what I can see, there's no way to revert Kensei to his human shape without Urahara's help; So, secretly, Urahara will try to help with the new gigai, I think;

But still, Mashiro, where are you? Probably Mashiro already is a monster too, then they'll have 2X problems with that;

hyn_pride93
May 16, 2008, 01:19 PM
yup. i think that Mashiro has already become a monster but, the thing we have to remember is, she beat her hollow form the fastest. and if u dont beat it, youll never revert back to urself. so right now Kensei is most likely fighting his hollow. and Mashiro, if not done already, is going to be done very soon and will help Kensei out. thats wen all the "non"-vizards witness. (<-- i meant to say the soon to be vizards)

Doombot
May 16, 2008, 01:40 PM
The other 7 soon-to-be-Vizards leave (I'm guessing at their own will) with Urahara (who I'm guessing played a huge part in this whole thing) and Yoruichi, then they decide to acquire hollow powers as well :D


Urahara and Yoruichi are not Vaizards... get over it.

GPZrag
May 16, 2008, 02:01 PM
Whos is Tessai?... im sure that i remember that name... but cant recolet where T_T...

TheChosenOne
May 16, 2008, 02:05 PM
Whos is Tessai?... im sure that i remember that name... but cant recolet where T_T...

He's the tall assistant to Urahara and his shop. :)

patedecarne
May 16, 2008, 02:07 PM
Whos is Tessai?... im sure that i remember that name... but cant recolet where T_T...

He's the mustache guy who is always with Urahara, that one who helped in Ichigo's training using a 99 number spell without chant;

KyanWan
May 16, 2008, 02:17 PM
Next chapter's battle should be epic. Methinks Kensei is going to do some damage.

But of course. He might be the one to start killing, maybe not ... maybe he gets Shinji - then he starts rampaging real bad. ( We -and Grimmjaw- all saw how tough Shinji is as vaizard ...)

How are they going to find out how to control the hollow? Well, one of them chanced upon it. I have a feeling it's Mashiro - there's a reason she's wearing that oldskool hero-suit she wears. She's just ... I dunno - maybe lucky. But, definitely, whoever found out how to do it - they're going to let everyone know what to do, and they're going to make sure the others come out.

What will be really interesting - is to see if anyone else -OTHER- than the vaizards we know ... was turned into a vaizard-bound hollow, but failed to control the hollow within.

---

Further -

Ya know, I'm starting to think that a Vasto Lorde based hybrid would be the *toughest* ... of all.

Another thing I wanted to point to -

Shinigami / hollow hybrid (vaizard) has a mask - Espadas are NOT hybrids. Why? They're still hollows - ( see the hole? ) I bet, the hollow hybrid loses the hollow hole once they're a true hybrid.

xmikeyxlikesitx
May 16, 2008, 02:33 PM
So this chapter more or less confrimed Nanao (Shunsui's current vice) is Risa's (His old vice) sister. Not only do the two look extremely similar but they even have similar Shikais...

Don't believe me?

We already know Nanao's is a book...but we know nothing about Risa's right? WRONG!


http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.7/12/

BOOM! Second to last panel...they both carry Book-like shikais...Kubo Tite sometimes you say so much saying so little.




Actually they're not sisters.

One is Lisa Yadomaru and the other is Nanao Ise.

TWO DIFFERENT SURNAMES.
YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE RELATED.

They just look similar, but have two different personalities.

And Kyouraku treats Nanao as if she were Lisa sometimes.

xPm
May 16, 2008, 02:35 PM
Urahara and Yoruichi are not Vaizards... get over it.

How do you know that?

xmikeyxlikesitx
May 16, 2008, 02:51 PM
i dont think that seiretei gets involved too much.. we will have captains like ukitake und shunsui fight against aizen&co very soon, it would be stupid to let them fight in a flashback arc that is only story telling. maybe the 6th division captain will die, but notin a fight, only by the side, maybe yoruichi doesnt help him and so byakuya hates her.^^

here's my guess about whats happening futhermore:

all involved shinigami will be turned into hollows.
kisuke, yoruichi and tessi have followed them. just look at their faces.
yoruichi, wait for orders - she does what she wants, i think she is following kisuke
kisuke is heading their 100%, cause he feels guilty and he is curious
tessai: "ok, i take a rest", look at his face, he definetely goes there, i cant explain why, but he has ;).
maybe the three of them find a chance to make these shinigami-hollows into vizards... vizard.. hmmm... wizard?? kido is like a magic spell? wizards? i think tessai is the one who breaks the line between hollow and shinigami, kisuke helps him with mind and benihime.. and yoruichi.. maybe she has awesome reiatsu or she just needs to fight the hollows so that there is time for the others. all in all they get banished along with the wizards cause such people cant stay in soul society any longer.

moreover: for the forthcoming fight aizen vs ss i think that aizen wont fight yama, because they dont seem to have ANY relationship to each other. maybe yama will fight espada #1, the others fight the others and aizen will watch first. later he will be fought by all wizards, but they cant handle him.



The word is "Vizard" which means "mask."

Wizards cast spells and show hobbits how to chuck rings in volcanoes.
[hr]
I think that Urahara, Yoruichi, and Tessai will end up rushing to the scene.

Urahara will tell Yoruichi that he can save them with her help.
I'm not sure how Tessai will be motivated to join, but he will make a shield around the Vizard, keeping them inside, the same way Hacchigen does.
Yoruichi will fight the Vizard inside while Urahara uses the gigai.

That is my prediction.


Also, I definitely think the three mysterious figures are new people.

"Isshin Kurosaki" has to be involved somehow.

Maybe "Isshin" was another person meant to become a Vizard. A possibility is that he was one of the three figures who felt guilty about creating the Vizard and he himself was turned into one, but Urahara only manages to use the gigai to save him while the others have completed their struggles.

Yoruichi helps the Vizard escape and then hides waiting for Urahara and Tessai to help them escape too.

Urahara is scheduled for a trial, but in the meantime creates the Hougyoku. Yoruichi is sent to escort him to the trial, but seeing as she saw him try to save the Vizard, makes it seem like they just disappeared.

Doombot
May 16, 2008, 03:01 PM
How do you know that?

Because they would have used their Vaizard powers by now.

TheChosenOne
May 16, 2008, 03:04 PM
Because they would have used their Vaizard powers by now.

That isn't an effective argument since we can argue that they haven't had a battle where their supposed Vaizard powers were needed. Yoruichi was able to play with Yammi without even using Shunko, where as Urahara only needed shikai. :)

patedecarne
May 16, 2008, 03:23 PM
Guys, let's try to stay in the topic's subject;


Kensei's mask doesn't looks like with a normal hollow mask, I'm wondering which is the true objective with these experiments: One possibility is that the 3 people are trying to break the shinigami's limits, and being that, certain Aizen is one of them;

Probably a soul like Kensei's one is strong enough to stand some changes without losing his true shinigami essence; by doing that, a new specie will be born;

But could be that the 3 people are trying to destroy the entire SS? Because they must know that Gotei 13 will go after them, unless they're planning to frame someone else, like Shinji and co.;

Morlun
May 16, 2008, 05:06 PM
So this chapter more or less confrimed Nanao (Shunsui's current vice) is Risa's (His old vice) sister. Not only do the two look extremely similar but they even have similar Shikais...

Don't believe me?

We already know Nanao's is a book...but we know nothing about Risa's right? WRONG!

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.7/12/

BOOM! Second to last panel...they both carry Book-like shikais...Kubo Tite sometimes you say so much saying so little.

Actually, Nanao's zanpakutou is a wakizashi she hides in her sleeve (Kubo's notes on the Bleach volumes), Nanao's books are studious, Liza's are hentai, and Nanao's family name is Ise and Liza's is Yadoumaru, so no, this chapter doesn't confirm they are sisters. All it confirms is that Shunsui's type is very specific. :)


Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/61/16/) if i'm not mistaken he is casting a #99 bakudou wich is quite a skill if Aizen had troubles in the early 90's.. But now that we now he is the kidoh captain it makes some sense ^^ If Tite planned that from the beggining I'm very very impressed ^^

Do note that bakudou (way of binding) and hadou (way of destruction) are two different types of spells, and the former seem easier to pull off than the latter. I'm not saying Tessai isn't the man, just that all indicates that a kurohitsugi (hadou 90) should be a lot harder to pull off than a bankin (bakudou 99).


Something seems strange. Why would Kyoraku randomly volunteer his lieutenant? Is there something special she has or maybe something special Kyoraku has in store? I hope it's not just Tite's lame way of getting Risa a reason to get all the would-be Vizards together.

I find it weird that people are pointing out how "convenient" that all the characters that will become vizards are being gathered in the same location to become vizards... well, duh! We're seeing a flashback! Of course they will all be there. :)

If Yamamoto had send someone else, then someone else would have become vizard, but he didn't, and these became vizard. There is no particular reason for Yamamoto to send these particular shinigami, he doesn't know the future, he's not using a crystal ball to see who to send... he's facing a crysis, and he's sending an elite force to deal with it.

As for why Shunsui sent Liza: he trusts her abilities, he's worried about Kensei, and he wants to ease Urahara. That, or he's in the league with Aizen, which would be fun. :) (Note: bokbokchui said the same thing. Great minds. :D)


Exactly what I was thinking. Tessai >>> Lisa, given that he's THE HEAD OF AN ENTIRE BRANCH. Getting Lisa hybridized, and showing that Tessai is the head of the division without getting him involved yet, must've been the only reason.

That's not entirely necessary. We've seen time and time again that being under-ranked doesn't mean a character is weak. Renji and Ikkaku have bankai and aren't Captains. Urahara jumped from a 3rd seat to Captaincy. And let's not even mention Aizen. :) For all we know, Shunsui was grooming Liza to become the new 10th Division Captain and this was a way to show her off to the rest.


And it looks as though Tessai and Urahara had no prior friendship now. Shunsui said he rarely comes out in public, so I doubt he'd know a new Captain very well when they aren't even in the same branch. I'm just wondering how Tessai will be involved now.

He'll be involved because Hacchi is involved.

The one thing that's worring me is that we've seen that Urahara isn't behind the experiments (his behaviour would make no sense otherwise, it'd be breaking the 4th wall), and that leaves Aizen... but if Aizen knew how to make hybrids 100 years ago, why all the trouble going after the hougyoku? If this isn't properly explained, it may end up breaking Bleach. Of course, if the leader of the 3 mysterious figures ends up being neither Aizen nor Urahara, then the twist will be epic. :)

big_p
May 16, 2008, 05:33 PM
I think you can officially update yout timeline now morlun.

Also, Kensei looks savage. Cannot wait to see at least other vizards masks. (someone more involved than myself should start a design your own vizard mask thread, i would but im too lazy and cannot think of my own design that satisfies me yet.)

Tessai's mustache is epic.

Morlun
May 16, 2008, 05:39 PM
I think you can officially update yout timeline now morlun.

I just did. I'll upload it tomorrow. :)


Also, Kensei looks savage. Cannot wait to see at least other vizards masks. (someone more involved than myself should start a design your own vizard mask thread, i would but im too lazy and cannot think of my own design that satisfies me yet.)

Hirako's design should be awesome.


Tessai's mustache is epic.

Tessai's mustache is legendary. It will fight and defeat Aizen in the final battle.

bighawke5
May 16, 2008, 05:48 PM
I dont understand why people aren't asking the wuestion...how did kensei turn into a hollow? i mean what sparked it? sure the stabbing might have something to do wit it but....stabbing? i mean ichigo wasnt stabbed....and who stabbed kensei? these are the questions we should be answering..before moving on to other ones...

some say its aizen but if he could hybridize shinigamis already there would be no need for the Hogyoku, but as it looks its not been created yet (or has it...) and i'm thinking urahara probably would feel guilty and try to help kensei to control his hollow and thats where the creation of the hogyoku comes in..

still the thing that bothers me is how kensei turned to hollow, i'm not talking bout the process here, im talkin about how it happened...that hasnt been explained, we were just shown him being stabbed and next chapter he's a hollow going wild attacking people...???? i hope Kubo explains it or else i cant follow this thing straight..

hyn_pride93
May 16, 2008, 06:15 PM
Morlun: i think that everything that you have said is pretty good. everything seems to be true and will probably happen later on in the manga.

but anyway, I think that Kisuke will leave for the camp grounds immediately after the Captains Meeting. he'll probably be caught by Yoruichi on his way out. and then she'll end up going with him and then they'll be stopped by Tessai who will go with them too. then when they get there, they'll see Shinji and the others trying to take down Kensei or at control him at least. but then all of a sudden they'll see Mashiro fighting two other captains. and then, they'll all witness her hollow form break and her normal form return. Kensei will disappear and run around rampaging everywhere and killing shinigami.

the shinigami that remained with Mashiro will ask her what happened and why she was able to return. she'll tell them everything that happened and then more people will start to change because something/someone ends up doing something to them and everyone needs to start fighting their hollows within.

thats just my prediction.... :)

wrstljr
May 16, 2008, 06:29 PM
Did Kubo not confirm that Nanao's shikai was the book she carries around? I know the wakizashi is the unreleased form...but I'm pretty sure that When she has her book it is indeed her zanpaktou.

hyn_pride93
May 16, 2008, 06:42 PM
even if the book is indeed her zanpaktou in its released form, who cares. sure thats an interesting release but if you guys are trying to compare her to Lisa as being her sister or relative, then just stop bcuz Nanao and Lisa arent sisters. get over it

Silhouette
May 16, 2008, 06:53 PM
Anyway I don't understand who could be strong enough to stab a CAPTAIN from behind. The most obvious guy is Aizen, but at that time he was still a vice-captain so he shouldn't have been able to own Kensei so easily.

This is what I think:
If Kensie turned into a hollow, chances are that his stabbed subordinates did too. Most likely, one of the fallen subordinates rose and stabbed Kensie. Of course Kensie wouldn't expect a "dead" shinigami to rise and attack him so the element of surprise was a big advantage.


Something seems strange. Why would Kyoraku randomly volunteer his lieutenant? Is there something special she has or maybe something special Kyoraku has in store? I hope it's not just Tite's lame way of getting Risa a reason to get all the would-be Vizards together.

Shinsui did that to make Urahara worry less about Hiyori, look at pages, Shinsui sees Urahara depressed and worried so he calls Risa/Lisa and ask for her to be sent to show Urahara:
1- It's not a big deal, don't worry I am even sending MY Risa/Lisa to show you that everything is fine
2-Even if it's a big deal, a captain must have patience and all, look at me send my Risa and being cool about it.

gigantor21
May 16, 2008, 07:06 PM
^ Neither of those seem like good enough reasons IMO.

This is someone that took down a Captain, a Vice Captain, and the squad they brought with them. They don't even know who or what it is. Sending Lisa as chattel to make Urahara feel better will only make her a sacrifice. I'd expect a senior captain to be more responsible, especially a senior captain like Shunsui, and, again, it seems like a random, heartless way to get Lisa in the "Hybrid Zone".

Raizen
May 16, 2008, 07:10 PM
Great chapter.
I can't wait for next week to see some major epic battles!!

Silhouette
May 16, 2008, 07:48 PM
^ Neither of those seem like good enough reasons IMO.

This is someone that took down a Captain, a Vice Captain, and the squad they brought with them. They don't even know who or what it is. Sending Lisa as chattel to make Urahara feel better will only make her a sacrifice. I'd expect a senior captain to be more responsible, especially a senior captain like Shunsui, and, again, it seems like a random, heartless way to get Lisa in the "Hybrid Zone".

I would agree with you if Shunsui had sent Lisa by herself or with one or two captains but Lisa was accompanied by 3 captains plus the Kidou lieutenant.
I didn't mention this in my previous post, but one of the reasons Shunsui sent Lisa was also to give her a chance to spread her wings. As far as Shunsui is concerned, he sent his lieutenant on a dangerous mission but it wasn't suicidal because about third of SS forces were sent with her. This is what a responsible captain would do and this is what Yama-jii, Soi Fong, Kumamora & Hitsugaya did when faced Aizen at the end of the HM arc. What Shunsui is doing now with Nanao (treating her as a sheltered girl) is what's not a responsible act of a captain even if he feels guilty about Lisa.

gigantor21
May 16, 2008, 08:14 PM
^ Lisa being sent in and of itself didn't bother me. It's that Shunsui recommended her over Tessai, a Branch head, as a showing of solidarity with Urahara against an unknown opponent. And even if, as Morlun says, Lisa is an exceptional VC, there IS a fundamental difference in power between VC's and Captains. Renji, with Bankai, was struggling against Fraccion, while Zaraki took down #5 without knowing his sword's name. If Bankai alone dictated exceptional strength, Zaraki wouldn't have become a Captain in the first place.

In the first place, I don't see what Lisa's ability says about Hiyori's. And Hiyori WAS sent by herself, so she was in much more danger. The two situations aren't analogous, so Urahara not being convinced makes sense IMO.

Silhouette
May 16, 2008, 08:33 PM
To gigantor

Shunsui's main argument to Yama-jii was that because the danger is unknown, it's not the best to send both the Kidou leader and his vice. Sending one of them can give the rest a chance to gather more info for a counterattack while if both should fall, the strike to SS forces would be devastating.
If Yamamoto thought it was a bad idea to send Unohana (a leader of special division) to face an unknown situation so did Shunsui about sending Tessai (the leader of a special division). So in away, Shunsui's reasoning was consistent with Yamamoto's and this is why Yamamoto agreed to Shunsui's recommendation.

About next chapter, You guys think we will see Shinji's bankai or is he going to be struck down by the mysterious culprit first? I would like to see Hiyori changing into a hollow and Shinji going bankai to fight her and Kensie

Quartz-pebble
May 16, 2008, 10:25 PM
Hmm, so all the Vizards are going to be grouped together. Kensei's been shanked, and now his hollow has started to take over. Logic dictates that all of them will probably suffer the same fate.

Interested to see how Kisuke ties into this. I'm thinking either it's all his fault, or he takes them all in and gets exiled for it.

mdp
May 16, 2008, 10:38 PM
Lisa looked sexy as hell eavesdropping. It was revealed Tessai has a staff of doom. Those 2 factors alone, made this a very cool chapter :spaz:spaz

I really do love Kubo's setup for the vizardization of all the random vicecaptains/captains in soul society, especially his inclusion of Hacchi. It seems that he really making it all come together really nicely. Oh yah Lisa looked sexy as hell too. :o

Cyanilurus
May 17, 2008, 12:27 AM
I predict that all this is going to end with one hell of a cliffhanger... (Someone else probably mentioned this already.)
Is it 1 or 2 chapters left? Et the beginning people said it' s 8 chapters long and that would only leave one but still, it would make more sense with more chappies...

Tsukisama
May 17, 2008, 12:53 AM
This was a wonderful chapter. Hachi finally showed up, and he's in the Kidou Corps (yay for prognostication :p)! Tessai showing up was nice. His appearance was very cool. (Is devil-horn hair part of the Kidou Corps mandatory appearance? :blink It definitely underscores the demon part of "demon arts.") With Hachi being called the Kidou Corps lieutenant, it makes me think that the Kidou Corps is just one division, unlike Covert Ops (5 divisions) and Gotei 13.

We also finally find out Byakuya's grandfather's name, Ginrei Kuchiki. When he got sent off to patrol with Ukitake and Shunsui, I literally heard a bell ring (death knell). Speaking of names, learning Rose's full name was nice. I am going to have to check other translations for this chapter than the one I read, but Rose's given name was translated "Rojuro" and Love's "Rabu." I know that "Rabu" is one way "Love" can be read, but Rose's name seemed a bit different.

We have got confirmation in this chapter that the attacker is hollowifying the souls and only the future vizards survive the process. So, I guess their method of becoming a vizard is not all that different from Ichigo's method of becoming a hollow and overcoming it (no Hougyoku involved seemingly). Kensei's hollow looks interesting. I wonder if next chapter Mashiro's hollow will be shown elsewhere fighting one of the other members of the future vizard search team.


Oh wow what a chapter!!!
Tessai... man who would've thought, even Kyoraku-taichou seemed to be honoured in his pressence! I mean I guess I would never have doubted he was strong and what not, but I would never have guessed this!

I assume it won't take long to get through this because judging by the Shinigami that are sent and Kensei's transformation, we can all kinda assume what's going to happen. We just need to find out now how they go from THAT to Vizards.

I expected Tessai to be head of the Kidou Corps, given his display of impressive kidou. I also expected him to be someone with a reputation .(This one was more intuition, but it was partially due to his age and Urahara's penchant for being in the company of powerful people.)

As for the the vizards' future, yeah. It pretty much is easy to see what is going to happen to them in that they are all going to end up being attacked and turned into hollows. I think that they will, after a certain amount of time of rampaging as a hollow, return to their conscious selves as vizards just like Ichigo did, but before they overcome their hollows, they rampage through SS.


So this chapter more or less confrimed Nanao (Shunsui's current vice) is Risa's (His old vice) sister. Not only do the two look extremely similar but they even have similar Shikais...

Don't believe me?

We already know Nanao's is a book...but we know nothing about Risa's right? WRONG!


http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.7/12/

BOOM! Second to last panel...they both carry Book-like shikais...Kubo Tite sometimes you say so much saying so little.

I doubt that Lisa and Nanao are sisters. (One could be adopted or they could be half-sisters to explain the different last names, but I just doubt it.) With this chapter, I think we see the origins of Shunsui's very protective feelings for Nanao. It would make for better story if the two just looked similar coincidentally and invoked these feelings in Kyoraku instead of them being related.

Also, we have no confirmation on Nanao's shikai being the book. It could just be something characteristic of the 8th division lieutenant to carry a big book. (A pretty silly characteristic, but it could be something Kubo uses to identify them.)


And it looks as though Tessai and Urahara had no prior friendship now. Shunsui said he rarely comes out in public, so I doubt he'd know a new Captain very well when they aren't even in the same branch. I'm just wondering how Tessai will be involved now.

I am also wondering that. Hopefully, Tessai doesn't just randomly end up standing around Urahara when Urahara does something nice for the vizards and just decide to be his assistant that way. I am hoping that Kubo actually goes through the trouble of trying to build up some interactions between the two in the next few chapters.


i think that's what the kidou group's responsibility, the controlling of hollowed versions of the shinigamis. the hollowed versions will be like on a rampage throughout seiretie but i think it would be in the campgrounds where the rampage begins. actually it already started based on this chapter. the 3 captains who'll stand guard in seiretei... one will die. and that's the sixth captain.

also i think the captains should let their vice captains go with them so that aizen doesn't have a choice to where he wanted to go.

I am not sure what you mean by your first statement's meaning. Are you saying that you think that the Kidou Corps' responsibility is to control hollow versions of shinigami? If so, then I would disagree. Firstly, Yamamoto did not know at the time that the shinigami were being turned into hollow; so, he did not have that in mind when he assigned Tessai and Hachi. (I believe he assigned them, because the Kidou Corps should be learned enough in kidou to know how to use it for healing purposes as well as use their kidou knowledge to perhaps do something else useful on the mission.)

I completely agree with you on the shinigami-turned-hollows starting at the camp site and then going to Seireitei, with Kuchiki-ji kicking the bucket.

The captains and lieutenants assigned to investigate were specifically assigned as an elite team. Including other people on this would be against the concept of the assignment. Plus, it might be Yamamoto's idea to have at least the lieutenants around to take care of running the divisions in case the captains don't make it back.


Just read the chapter, Kubo continues to impress, was just an awesome chapter. Didn't get to see Kensie in action, but all the info was more than enough. Tessai being the head was unexpected, I though Hachigen would, but it worked out well. I wonder if all 6 of them have their vizard transformation in the coming moments. :)

I always thought Hachi seemed more like a lieutenant to me than head of a division.


But will Shini fight against frankstein Kensei? Fro what I can see, there's no way to revert Kensei to his human shape without Urahara's help; So, secretly, Urahara will try to help with the new gigai, I think;

Not necessarily. During Ichigo's trainig with the vizards, they talked about the duration of time they took overcoming their hollow. So, if Ichigo did it on his own and they weren't surprised, I would not be surprised if they could overcome their own hollows independently too.


Do note that bakudou (way of binding) and hadou (way of destruction) are two different types of spells, and the former seem easier to pull off than the latter. I'm not saying Tessai isn't the man, just that all indicates that a kurohitsugi (hadou 90) should be a lot harder to pull off than a bankin (bakudou 99).

Why does bakudou seem easier to accomplish than hadou? The only reason that I have ever heard cited for this notion was Tessai's use of an incantation-less level 99 bakudo compared to Aizen's level 90 hadou, but now with confirmation of Tessai's status as the captain of the Kidou Corps can be used to explain that.


I find it weird that people are pointing out how "convenient" that all the characters that will become vizards are being gathered in the same location to become vizards... well, duh! We're seeing a flashback! Of course they will all be there. :)

If Yamamoto had send someone else, then someone else would have become vizard, but he didn't, and these became vizard. There is no particular reason for Yamamoto to send these particular shinigami, he doesn't know the future, he's not using a crystal ball to see who to send... he's facing a crysis, and he's sending an elite force to deal with it.

It is not the fact that they were chosen for the mission, but the manner in which they were chosen that seems contrived (for me at least). The way Lisa and Hachi joined the mission lacked a bit of believability for me. Lisa's situation has been discussed, but Hachi's participation also seems a bit contrived. The Kidou Corps has never been shown before now to be involved in missions, although they could only be involved in super dangerous missions in which captains are dying (unlike when Captain Aizen supposedly died and SS was being assailed by a mystery group of ryoka). Plus, if given the choice between the two of them, why choose Hachi for the mission over Tessai? What does that accomplish other than the obvious plot reasons?

kunai-knight
May 17, 2008, 12:56 AM
Yeah its hard to imagine all of the answers being covered in just 2 chapters considering where it is right now. A cliff hanger is most probable ending of this flashback. Doesnt look like there is time for any fighting either.

Sharingan warrior
May 17, 2008, 02:12 AM
So kisuke wanted to go and retrieve hiyori but was stopped ,he must have felt really bad about what had happened to her.Next week will most likely potray hiyori and shinjis transformation and hopefully show how is behind these events that created the vizards.

Navarr0Newton
May 17, 2008, 02:22 AM
I ADOR Kenseis Hollow form. the tank thingies on his back are insane.
i think this chapter is just the tip of whats gonna be in the next.hopefully next chapter we see who it was that stabbed kensei and why he bacame a hollow. Also after that they have to show each and every one of their hollow forms and inner hollows. OMG i am having a fanboy orgasm.
[hr]
isnt it obvious after your last statement. if the kidou corps is so powerful y send the captain????based on their stregnth could they be just like the 11th squad in that their lower rank officers are vice captain and captain level shinigami.Lisa was sent because she is both strong and for shunsui to ease uraharas tenseness at his vice`s status. yamamoto even said that he wouldnt send a healer if he didnt know the situation y send so many of the captains not knowing what could happen( also Urahara was kinda panicky and who knows what he would have done)
the captains allowing their vices to go was to show their faith.besides they had three captains with them anyway to step in.

jocouslie
May 17, 2008, 02:39 AM
i guess the kidou corps have some spells to at least stop the rampage of the hollowified versions of the captains and vice captains. maybe they have been subdued but the effects of having a hollow power is still with them, that's why they develop their own techniques and spells to completely subdue and call their hollow powers. unfortunately having hollow powers is not permitted in soul society so they have been banished. or left of their own will.

urahara's gigai will be used in the next chapter, i think. using it will cause some disturbing results, i guess.

Morlun
May 17, 2008, 07:01 AM
^ Lisa being sent in and of itself didn't bother me. It's that Shunsui recommended her over Tessai, a Branch head, as a showing of solidarity with Urahara against an unknown opponent. And even if, as Morlun says, Lisa is an exceptional VC, there IS a fundamental difference in power between VC's and Captains. Renji, with Bankai, was struggling against Fraccion, while Zaraki took down #5 without knowing his sword's name. If Bankai alone dictated exceptional strength, Zaraki wouldn't have become a Captain in the first place.

In the first place, I don't see what Lisa's ability says about Hiyori's. And Hiyori WAS sent by herself, so she was in much more danger. The two situations aren't analogous, so Urahara not being convinced makes sense IMO.

If you're a leader, you trust your subordinates. That trust has to be implicit. You can't think about shielding them, you have to think "this person gets the job done". Otherwise, Hisagi, Matsumoto, Iba, Oomaeda and Sasakibe would have been left at home for the upcoming fake-Karakura battle. Besides, the Vice-Captains could be useful there to deal with the fraccion while the Captains deal with the Espada and the traitors. Of course, I'm counting (or at least hoping) the Espada and the traitors massacre the Captains and the Vice-Captains. :D

As for recommending her over Tessai, I can easily see Kenpachi recommending anyone in his division over another Captain, and challenging whoever thinks that's preposterous to a fight. Of course, Zaraki isn't the wisest person, so the example probably doesn't fly very well when we compare him to Shunsui... :)

Regardless, and I know having bankai doesn't necessarily mean you're Captain level, but for all we know, Liza was Captain level. I don't believe she was, nor am I defending she was, but we cannot say she wasn't. At least not until she's owned in the next couple of weeks. :) When the gaiden started, Urahara was a 3rd seat and was clearly Captain level.

I don't know... this may do nothing to quelch your doubts - it's totally a POV thing -, but I find it perfectly normal, as a leader of men, for one to say "You're sending both heads of one unit to battle? That seems unwise. Send one of my men instead."

Xerte
May 17, 2008, 07:21 AM
kensai is already a hollow, and other soon will too..
how will kubo in 2 chapter explain their expultion and get urahara/yoruichi involved in all this?
this arc won't explain much at last...
next chap we'll see the killer or other cap get killed but him, then we'll see urahara get there..
then there is no time to show us how they were expelled, so i thought about 2 explanation:
1)they left by theirself
2)SS sent them away but we won't see that
3)yamamoto ban them with anger...

i think that at last SS isn't on the right sire..aizen too..
vaizard r the good side, they r just victims imo and SS sent them away by force because they have power above captain lvl or some other reason

hitokugutsu
May 17, 2008, 10:04 AM
In 2 chapters: All the people who are heading to kensei will become hollows (duhh) and will be unable to control it. This is were Urahara steps is with his hyogouku, preventing the hollow from taking over and therefore they will bevome vaizard. Result all will be banned from SS.

bokbokchui
May 17, 2008, 11:09 AM
Two thing that intrigues me, One, We still don't see the captain of 11th division!! Darn it i want to know who it is so badly. Second, Captain Yama never seen to be bother no matter how bizarre or dangerous the situation is. Kudos to the strongest old man in Bleach.

Tsukisama
May 17, 2008, 11:27 AM
isnt it obvious after your last statement. if the kidou corps is so powerful y send the captain????based on their stregnth could they be just like the 11th squad in that their lower rank officers are vice captain and captain level shinigami.Lisa was sent because she is both strong and for shunsui to ease uraharas tenseness at his vice`s status. yamamoto even said that he wouldnt send a healer if he didnt know the situation y send so many of the captains not knowing what could happen( also Urahara was kinda panicky and who knows what he would have done)
the captains allowing their vices to go was to show their faith.besides they had three captains with them anyway to step in.

The reason for Kyoraku objecting over Tessai going instead of Hachi seems very suspect. If you wanted to replace one of Yamamoto's assignments, why not replace a lieutenant with a lieutenant? Yamamoto must have had some reason for choosing Tessai to go, since he would obviously be aware of his power.

Also, the 11th division got lucky with Ikkaku and Yumichika, two very strong shinigami, being devoted followers of Kenpachi and wanting to stay in his division. That should not be taken as a general statement of the power of the 11th division. Ikkaku and Yumichika are anomalous. Could the Kidou Corps be so lucky and have overly qualified people pretending to be weaker to serve under Tessai? Yes, but that is something that you should not infer.
[hr]
Continuing my rant on things seeming contrived in this chapter, two more things I wanted to discuss: the absence of the 10th Kenpachi and the use of the Kidou Corps.

Kubo explained why the current Kenpachi did not come to the previous captains' meeting with the excuse that he just likes to do his own thing, but in this chapter, there is an actual emergency going on and he still is not present. Why hasn't Yamamoto forced him to come? If I were to send anyone to patrol and protect the area, it would be the battle-crazed 11th division. (It's not like they really have that many other strengths.) This just seems like bad story-telling on Kubo's part, not wanting to reveal the 10th Kenpachi and assuming we would just overlook his absence.

The sudden reliance on the Kidou Corps also seems suspect to me. Yamamoto's reason for involving them was that he did not want to send the healers into such a perilous, unknown situation. Where was this concern when Yamamoto sent Unohana, Isane, and Hanatarou to HM with the HM rescue party? That was also a perilous mission rife with unknown dangers, and yet Captain Unohana, her lieutenant, and the 7th seat of the 4th division (Hanatarou who could probably be taken out by a lesser fraccion :blink) were sent in. Why not send the Kidou Corps then?

When SS was being attacked by mysterious group of ryoka (Ichigo and friends in the SS arc) and a captain (Aizen, though not really dead) was found dead, why wasn't the Kidou Corps mobilized then? Again, there was unknown peril with a captain-level shinigami mysteriously dying. Yet, it was safe enough the 4th division to get involved.

All of this just seems like Kubo rushing through this gaiden without giving enough thought to his decisions and their implications. I really would not be surprised if the gaiden ends in the next chapter or two with Kubo just zipping along as he has done this chapter.

jocouslie
May 17, 2008, 11:46 AM
maybe the kenpachi in this gaiden is one of the culprits who's been experimenting on souls that's why he's not there. just a guess though. the one which kensei saw was probably the 11th captain, that's why kensei felt a strong reiatsu and then eventually a stab at the back. but before that he looks on his stabber and he recognizes him

Tsukisama
May 17, 2008, 11:53 AM
maybe the kenpachi in this gaiden is one of the culprits who's been experimenting on souls that's why he's not there. just a guess though. the one which kensei saw was probably the 11th captain, that's why kensei felt a strong reiatsu and then eventually a stab at the back. but before that he looks on his stabber and he recognizes him

Maybe, but Kubo should have at least given some reason why he was not present at the meeting. It seems like an oversight.

redcometfm
May 17, 2008, 11:55 AM
Funny thing is, its been said in the SS Arc that the last time there was an invasion of the Sereitei was 100 years ago. Sounds like that'll apply here.

Tsukisama
May 17, 2008, 11:58 AM
Funny thing is, its been said in the SS Arc that the last time there was an invasion of the Sereitei was 100 years ago. Sounds like that'll apply here.

Very nice find; that seems like a very good connection to what is going on now. It would also foreshadow the hollowified shinigami moving rampaging in Seireitei next. Do you have a reference for that? (I believe you, but it would be nice for people to view it.)

jocouslie
May 17, 2008, 12:07 PM
Funny thing is, its been said in the SS Arc that the last time there was an invasion of the Sereitei was 100 years ago. Sounds like that'll apply here.

so it's an invasion? hm.. shinigamis experimenting and then letting their experiments loose in seiretei.. is some sort of invasion...? yes i think so too. anyway do you think the culprits would also help in subduing their experiments? maybe or maybe not....

Tsukisama
May 17, 2008, 12:17 PM
so it's an invasion? hm.. shinigamis experimenting and then letting their experiments loose in seiretei.. is some sort of invasion...? yes i think so too. anyway do you think the culprits would also help in subduing their experiments? maybe or maybe not....

If Aizen is one of the experimenters, then definitely. This would be a perfect way for him to show his mettle, impressing his superiors to get a nod towards becoming a captain, and to make Shinji and the other vizards look bad by putting a spin on the situations.

someguy0830
May 17, 2008, 12:40 PM
Aizen's real power: PR. What chapter is that SS invasion line in? If it's true, it seems to suggest that Shinji and co are going to go hollow crazy and devastate Soul Society before being brought down.

Grimjaww
May 17, 2008, 03:17 PM
Aizen's real power: PR. What chapter is that SS invasion line in? If it's true, it seems to suggest that Shinji and co are going to go hollow crazy and devastate Soul Society before being brought down.

Yeah that's the case, but if the other squad members become hollowfied and die in battle, or are they saved then lose to their hollow side later on?

It's just weird how someone was able to catch a captain off guard like that...............

redcometfm
May 17, 2008, 03:44 PM
Very nice find; that seems like a very good connection to what is going on now. It would also foreshadow the hollowified shinigami moving rampaging in Seireitei next. Do you have a reference for that? (I believe you, but it would be nice for people to view it.)

Unfortunately, no I don't. It was just something I remembered from recently re-reading Bleach as well as when I watched the SS Arc back in 06. I think it might have been Ikkaku or Byakuya who might've said it. I'm not really sure :/ but I definetly know that it was said in the SS Arc by one of the important Gotei 13 characters so if anyone wants to skim the chapters to find it, go for it.

Since it's an invasion, you don't suppose Kubo would tease an image of Isshin (despite the year gap btw then and now) or Kenpachi?
Perhaps the previous Kenpachi or the one captain Urahara replaced were taken out by these ryoka and SS tried to cover it up or something?
(shrug)

gigantor21
May 17, 2008, 03:58 PM
^ I'm also curious, because I remember someone saying that too. It was one of the randomly timed nuggets of history sprinkled throughout that arc, so I can understand why you can't remember where you saw it.

And a rampage in Seireitei would be AWESOME. But I'm sure the current captains would know more about the Vaizards and such if that's the case. My guess is that it stays in Rukongai (though I really hope it doesn't).

Jehuty
May 17, 2008, 04:31 PM
Aizen's real power: PR. What chapter is that SS invasion line in? If it's true, it seems to suggest that Shinji and co are going to go hollow crazy and devastate Soul Society before being brought down.
Post-Byakuya battle:

Guard 1: So, this is the second time in a hundred years that people've stormed this place, and we've been totally helpless to stop it?
Guard 2: Yep.
Guard 1: Huh. D'you ever think that if the physical world knew about all this crap they'd have a perpetual sense of impending doom?
Guard 2: All the time.

kunai-knight
May 17, 2008, 05:28 PM
The sudden reliance on the Kidou Corps also seems suspect to me. Yamamoto's reason for involving them was that he did not want to send the healers into such a perilous, unknown situation. Where was this concern when Yamamoto sent Unohana, Isane, and Hanatarou to HM with the HM rescue party? That was also a perilous mission rife with unknown dangers, and yet Captain Unohana, her lieutenant, and the 7th seat of the 4th division (Hanatarou who could probably be taken out by a lesser fraccion :blink) were sent in. Why not send the Kidou Corps then?

When SS was being attacked by mysterious group of ryoka (Ichigo and friends in the SS arc) and a captain (Aizen, though not really dead) was found dead, why wasn't the Kidou Corps mobilized then? Again, there was unknown peril with a captain-level shinigami mysteriously dying. Yet, it was safe enough the 4th division to get involved.

All of this just seems like Kubo rushing through this gaiden without giving enough thought to his decisions and their implications. I really would not be surprised if the gaiden ends in the next chapter or two with Kubo just zipping along as he has done this chapter.


Maybe after this incident the kidou corps are disbanded, and hence cannot be called upon to help 100 years later. Lets not forget that even though its a manga, a 100 years is still a lot of time. Maybe Captaim Yama has changed his views or has learnt a thing or two during that time.

All i'm saying is, lets not just assume the worst from Kubo. Maybe the reason that the 11th captain isn't there now will appear next chapter, give it time.

MooMoo
May 17, 2008, 06:33 PM
^I agree with kunai-knight in thinking that the Kidou Corps are disbanded in the current timeline.

As for the 11th captain, I don't know, Kubo hasn't really rushed through things before, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's a perfectly legit reason for his absence.

patedecarne
May 17, 2008, 08:50 PM
The 11th captain won't be in the gaiden, I believe; He just a kenpachi (I hate every kenpachi) and will be totally irrelevant at this point;

And even if Aizen has another traitor in SS, probably won't be a captain;

And the funny this is if that Aizen is one of the responsible in the gaiden, he's the man, to be able to do the 2 greatest mess in Soul Society isn't a easy task;

someguy0830
May 17, 2008, 09:00 PM
Post-Byakuya battle:

Guard 1: So, this is the second time in a hundred years that people've stormed this place, and we've been totally helpless to stop it?
Guard 2: Yep.
Guard 1: Huh. D'you ever think that if the physical world knew about all this crap they'd have a perpetual sense of impending doom?
Guard 2: All the time.Thank you. By post-Byakuya do you mean when he is actually defeated or simply Ichigo's first attempt which Yoruichi saved him from?

bladehappy
May 17, 2008, 09:52 PM
Here's my prediction:

Every pre-Vaizard shinigami is transformed into their hollowed state and they rush the Seireitei.

It ends in the same little picture with all the hollowed shini's facing all the Shini's left to battle like the chapter before the gaiden started. (In a 1-2 chapter sense)

The picture is also going to be massively epic too.

gigantor21
May 17, 2008, 10:03 PM
Something I just realized: will they be showing Kensei's inner world during this? His Zanpakuto avatar? And what about the other destined Vizards? It'd be insanely badass if we got to see those during the hybridization.

mdp
May 17, 2008, 10:11 PM
Here's my prediction:

Every pre-Vaizard shinigami is transformed into their hollowed state and they rush the Seireitei.

It ends in the same little picture with all the hollowed shini's facing all the Shini's left to battle like the chapter before the gaiden started. (In a 1-2 chapter sense)

The picture is also going to be massively epic too.

I think i just came a little. :spaz

samlovesclau
May 17, 2008, 10:16 PM
Has anyone thought of Ishin being the 10th kenpachi?

I thought the chapter was great, shinji looked pretty badass, i can't wait to see how this will turn out.

It appears that tousen won't make an appeareance in this gaiden, he is most likely a newer captain which is why he was still a lieutenant when zaraki kenpachi killed the previous kenpachi, now i wonder if the one he killed is the 10th or 11th

I would really love ishin to be the kenpachi.

bladehappy
May 17, 2008, 10:24 PM
Also, I'd like to include that its most likely Urahara and Isshin make their first encounter with eachother. Unless Tite is a total asshole and decides that they are just buddies from the human world. Which would make me rage.

TheChosenOne
May 17, 2008, 10:31 PM
Something I just realized: will they be showing Kensei's inner world during this? His Zanpakuto avatar? And what about the other destined Vizards? It'd be insanely badass if we got to see those during the hybridization.

I doubt it considering Kubo would need to show the other Vaizards (more importantly Shinji), I think the avatar is likely reserved for Ichigo and maybe Ken. :)

maraxusofk
May 17, 2008, 10:42 PM
Yeah there has been something bothering me for a long time now about Tessai and this revelation of his rank answers it quite well...

Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/61/16/) if i'm not mistaken he is casting a #99 bakudou wich is quite a skill if Aizen had troubles in the early 90's.. But now that we now he is the kidoh captain it makes some sense ^^ If Tite planned that from the beggining I'm very very impressed ^^

And we might get a glimpse of shinji's shikai or bankai next chapter! That'd be just great ^^

oh man i completley forgot about this. nice eye and memory. i think kubo did plan this, and it is very impressive.

Tsukisama
May 17, 2008, 10:45 PM
Maybe after this incident the kidou corps are disbanded, and hence cannot be called upon to help 100 years later. Lets not forget that even though its a manga, a 100 years is still a lot of time. Maybe Captaim Yama has changed his views or has learnt a thing or two during that time.

All i'm saying is, lets not just assume the worst from Kubo. Maybe the reason that the 11th captain isn't there now will appear next chapter, give it time.

The Kidou Corps has been referenced in the current timeline before this gaiden, making one assume that they are still in operation, and are also mentioned briefly in the databook as taking in extremely gifted (in kidou) shinigami from the academy under the impression that the organization is still active.

Kenpachi was not at the emergency captain meeting and was not even mentioned at all during Yamamoto's mission briefing. (If he was already on assignment, it would have been fitting for Yamamoto to have said something.) Even if Kubo does remember to include him next chapter, it does not explain his noticeable absence (both in person and from reference) in the meeting this chapter.

It is easy to say that Yamamoto has changed his mind or Kenpachi will show up next chapter, but you should not have to invent reasons for such things without any plot basis. Concerning Yamamoto's decision to involve the Kidou Corps, there is no prior evidence in the manga to support this decision, making it seem contrived to me. Kenpachi not being present at the meeting and not even being referenced is illogical.


Has anyone thought of Ishin being the 10th kenpachi?

I thought the chapter was great, shinji looked pretty badass, i can't wait to see how this will turn out.

It appears that tousen won't make an appeareance in this gaiden, he is most likely a newer captain which is why he was still a lieutenant when zaraki kenpachi killed the previous kenpachi, now i wonder if the one he killed is the 10th or 11th

I would really love ishin to be the kenpachi.

Yes, that theory has been brought up quite a few times in the past. Most people don't support the idea, because they don't believe Isshin fits the typical Kenpachi stereotype, Ichigo's name would be more recognizable, and they expect Isshin to have some greater importance than just being a former Kenpachi. (Although being a Kenpachi might seem really cool, story-wise it does not seem to be that significant of a position other than also being captain of the 11th division.)

I personally would hope Isshin does not turn out to be a Kenpachi and instead has some sort of connection to the Royal Guard.

Doombot
May 18, 2008, 12:31 AM
It would help if they were to show a Royal Guard uniform. Perhaps even the captains will be overrun by the transforming Vaizard and Isshin might have to step in? He did after all call they traitors before and one would think that he would have had some dealings with them to have that strong of attitude toward a person. Anyways! I still think that Isshin is a Shiba. Just too many connections between Ichigo and the Shibas.

eddy26
May 18, 2008, 01:08 AM
Being able to see every other vizards hollow form will be cool if they are shown. If the gaiden is ending I doubt we are going to see all of them. What I think might happen is that Shinji and everybody else will try to subdue Kensei and Mashiro not kill them. After a long time Yamamoto and everyone else won't sense the reiatsu of all the people they sent. Before Yamamoto can set up another captain's meeting Urahara will take off to the scene along with Tessai since he is worried about Hachigen. They get there and are surprised to see that most of the people sent are already hollowfied. I'm thinking Hachigen will not be hollowfied and will explain to Urahara and Tessai what happened to everyone else. The only reason he isn't hollowfied is because he is binding whichever vizard is near him. The vizard who Hachigen is binding will win the battle with their inner hollow shocking Tessai, Hachigen, and Urahara. Eventually while trying to bind another vizard Hachigen gets stabbed and becomes a hollow. Before Hachigen can harm anyone Urahara fights hollowfied Hachigen without killing him and Tessai binds him. Tessai is grateful to Urahara for preventing Hachigen from doing any harm and that is how their friendship starts.

maraxusofk
May 18, 2008, 01:35 AM
I believe the theory that soul society being overrun by vaizards has a great deal of merit mostly because it has been mentioned by shinji that shinigami's with hollow powers are exiled (probably due to the taboo or fear from the experience of being run over by vaizards).

Grimjaww
May 18, 2008, 01:51 AM
I doubt it considering Kubo would need to show the other Vaizards (more importantly Shinji), I think the avatar is likely reserved for Ichigo and maybe Ken. :)

Not necessarily, we saw Zabimaru when he was talking to Renji. I mean Kubo has to atleast show us who came up with the first way to fight against the deep hollow inside, so atleast the world of someone will be shown, but don't know about the zankpaktou image. If all of them were to be shown at some point, that would make Bleach so EPIC!

Morlun
May 18, 2008, 08:06 AM
^I agree with kunai-knight in thinking that the Kidou Corps are disbanded in the current timeline.

The Kidou Corps are not disbanded, they were mentioned multiple times during the SS arc (opening portals and stuff).

As for why send Tessai instead of Unohana to Rukongai back then, and Unohana instead of whoever's the Kidou Corps leader now to HM... that's reaching at straws. What, he should always send the same people? Different missions, different circunstances, a century apart.


It appears that tousen won't make an appeareance in this gaiden, he is most likely a newer captain which is why he was still a lieutenant when zaraki kenpachi killed the previous kenpachi, now i wonder if the one he killed is the 10th or 11th

Tousen was wearing a white haori when Zaraki killed the previous Kenpachi, so I doubt he was a Vice-Captain. He was either a Captain, or a part of that 9th Division unit who's uniforms are (conveniently) white robes and to whom we've been introduced to quite recently. ;)

Quetz
May 18, 2008, 10:49 AM
It would help if they were to show a Royal Guard uniform. Perhaps even the captains will be overrun by the transforming Vaizard and Isshin might have to step in? He did after all call they traitors before and one would think that he would have had some dealings with them to have that strong of attitude toward a person. Anyways! I still think that Isshin is a Shiba. Just too many connections between Ichigo and the Shibas.


lovin this theory atm, hope it pans out

PredakingD78
May 18, 2008, 10:14 PM
The person whom attacked Kensei most likely isn't either presently in SS or no longer considered a threat. It seems like said attacker's Zakpanto special abilty may be the cause of Kensei & company's problems. What if it seemingly destroys a soul upon cutting them, but in reality only causes it to dispurse or revert (to plain spirit particles). However, stronger shingamis are slighty able to counter or slow the effect. But in doing so the Shinigami revert back to a similar state of a regular spirit that is on the verge of becoming a hollow. Additionally, Urahara could have sealed this person or zakpanto to create the Hogokou (sp).

Aizen has to be involved with the attacks some how. As in the present Shinji knows about Aizen, the Orb and Urahara. While Urahara is obvious, unless the vizards get current info from SS, something had to happen in the past to make him aware of Aizen motives.

Saifi
May 19, 2008, 12:46 AM
u know i am thinking since a volume is usually 10 chaps and this gaiden doesnt seem to be wrapping up anytime soon , maybe well continue it till -98 and make it a full volume !

hot_chips
May 19, 2008, 01:07 AM
It would help if they were to show a Royal Guard uniform. Perhaps even the captains will be overrun by the transforming Vaizard and Isshin might have to step in? He did after all call they traitors before and one would think that he would have had some dealings with them to have that strong of attitude toward a person. Anyways! I still think that Isshin is a Shiba. Just too many connections between Ichigo and the Shibas.
Isshin can't be around at this time, unless either he was an extremely low rank or hasn't been appointed a position. This is because Shinji didn't recognize Isshin's reiatsu when he released his sword whilst Ichigo was still unable to control his inner hollow.

Grimjaww
May 19, 2008, 01:09 AM
u know i am thinking since a volume is usually 10 chaps and this gaiden doesnt seem to be wrapping up anytime soon , maybe well continue it till -98 and make it a full volume !

i hope so, I doubt a whole invasion on seiretei, possible death of the current Kuchiki captain, and the reason why the vizard were banished can be summed up in 2 chapters. About Isshin, it would be nice if he was from the RG, but why wouldn't Shinji recognize his reiatsu in the human world when he fought ichigo?

maraxusofk
May 19, 2008, 01:14 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/154/10/

huh i never noticed but the shiba family was one of the 4 noble families?!?! if thats true then isshin belonging to the shiba's defintely has credence cuz someone from a noble family would obviously be strong right? plus he could have left for the real world after the shiba's fell.

Grimjaww
May 19, 2008, 01:32 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/154/10/

huh i never noticed but the shiba family was one of the 4 noble families?!?! if thats true then isshin belonging to the shiba's defintely has credence cuz someone from a noble family would obviously be strong right? plus he could have left for the real world after the shiba's fell.

No, he most likely had something to do with the fall of the Shiba clan............a captain that is trying to hide in the real world does not seem like a good thing. There is no "retiring" from SS.

Hada-Kun
May 19, 2008, 01:49 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/154/10/

huh i never noticed but the shiba family was one of the 4 noble families?!?! if thats true then isshin belonging to the shiba's defintely has credence cuz someone from a noble family would obviously be strong right? plus he could have left for the real world after the shiba's fell.

I may be blanking, but i do believe we only know 3 of the 4 noble houses...

Shihouin, kuchiki, shiba (fallen but still counted as one)... what is the fourth? am i forgetting it or has it just... not been said.

i know that was somewhat off topic.

On a more on-topic note, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/08/ may be preluding to those two being with the defending party of the soul society from the 'rampage' and seeing yamamoto and all fight off the vizards. Speculation can have rewards.

maraxusofk
May 19, 2008, 01:57 AM
No, he most likely had something to do with the fall of the Shiba clan............a captain that is trying to hide in the real world does not seem like a good thing. There is no "retiring" from SS.

could the fall possibly be related to him marrying a human woman and causing some major taboo in ss?






LAST THING

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/12/

the thing about hougyoku sounds awfully like wuts being used right now, with the barrier between hollow and shinigami dissolving, although in the last chapter dissolving seems really literal. iono maybe just reading too much into it?

Coolnerd89
May 19, 2008, 04:47 AM
That would make sense. But as to who the shadows were (from the last chapter or the one before it) I doupt Urahara is in it. The way he reacted when Hiyori left to go investigate means that he wasn't one of the shadows. However, I believe he knows about it. I think The shadows were Shinji, Gin, and Aizen. I most likely will be wrong but oh well >.<
The thing I'm still wondering is how did Todo become controled... I think it might be Aizen's doing. He used his hypnosis on them and Todo ended up killing the others. Havin' Gin finish off Todo, while Aizen stabed Kensai and planted the weird thingy into him.

vashdestampede
May 19, 2008, 05:23 AM
I think it'd be great if by the end of the gaiden, it's revealed that the culprits have nothing to do with aizen.
That would mean that there is some story left after the whole aizen thing blows over and something even more sinister lies beneath. Especially if it's someone we already know

THETRUTH.com
May 19, 2008, 05:37 AM
I think Aizen was behind this and Urahara's exile come as a result of the solution he create in reaction to this event. If who ever cause the transformation is still there this experiment would looks like a failure if they are trying to create a hybrid this result is far from a success. Especially when needing captain-class or near captain-class shinigami to get this unstable result.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.1/13/
Isshin could be older than Shinji. Shunsui and Ukitake say the only people left from a centry ago are Ukitake, Unohana, Old man, and Shunsui. Isshin could be from that era. He could be a Captain that "retired" and Kisuke help escape. Or the head of the Shiba Clan that was tired of being in SS(or both). Now the latter would lead to more story as Yoruichi(who should know of Isshin) and Kuukaku(if she doesnt know) seem to be close. That would also make Isshin older than Shinji if he turns out to be the eldest Shiba. What makes me think this is not so is I dont see how that would be worked into the storyline.

patedecarne
May 19, 2008, 06:42 AM
Yes, I'm also thinking that;
Now that Tessai showed up and Yoruichi is in stand by waiting for further orders, something must link them and Urahara, otherwise, Still will be unclear why Tessai and Yoruichi gave up from his high positions to follow Urahara.

And I think this is an important point to be told...

Razh
May 19, 2008, 09:01 AM
Isshin can't be around at this time, unless either he was an extremely low rank or hasn't been appointed a position. This is because Shinji didn't recognize Isshin's reiatsu when he released his sword whilst Ichigo was still unable to control his inner hollow.

Rukia didn't recognize Byakuya's reiatsu when he was fighting Ichigo either.
Besides, it's been 100 years till Shinji was a captain. Maybe he just forgot.
But I think that Isshin came to being a captain after Vizard left SS, because there was plenty of space to fill up then.
I think he was a captain because of that white cloth he has. Sure, somebody could argue that he might be former Royal Guard, but nobody has any real indication of it.


What makes me think this is not so is I dont see how that would be worked into the storyline.

It would, however, explain the simmilarity between Ichigo and Kaien.

sk.nite
May 19, 2008, 10:33 AM
It was mentioned that a member of squad 12 looks like Isshin. Probably it's just a coincidence but check it out, it's in ch -107

ShaunMati1
May 19, 2008, 11:47 AM
So we finally have the barrier being broken. All we saw was kensei get stabbed and if we are assuming that kensei is going through the same process that ichigo went through then shouldnt kensei be considered dead. Urahara did say to ichigo that if he doesnt achieve to recover his shinigami powers before he turns into a hollow then its too late for him, they would have to kill him. Well kensei (although looks bad ass) is now a hollow, doenst that mean its too late for him. I think that it was more then just a stab at kensei, maybe i would have to injure a person to the point where they cant move to test of them. Injure them in anyway possible. So the hougyoku breaks the barrier between a hollow and shinigami, so is it being used against kensei....who knows, but that is something I want to know by the end of this arc.

THETRUTH.com
May 19, 2008, 12:24 PM
So we finally have the barrier being broken. All we saw was kensei get stabbed and if we are assuming that kensei is going through the same process that ichigo went through then shouldnt kensei be considered dead. Urahara did say to ichigo that if he doesnt achieve to recover his shinigami powers before he turns into a hollow then its too late for him, they would have to kill him. Well kensei (although looks bad ass) is now a hollow, doenst that mean its too late for him. I think that it was more then just a stab at kensei, maybe i would have to injure a person to the point where they cant move to test of them. Injure them in anyway possible. So the hougyoku breaks the barrier between a hollow and shinigami, so is it being used against kensei....who knows, but that is something I want to know by the end of this arc.


^Ichigo's training with Urahara was to obtain his shinigami powers. What Kensei is going through now what is, though unintentional, the initial phase of Vizard training. So it is not to late and I never really thought about it that way but all Shinigami are technically dead. They are just souls. Ichigo is a human but is still a shinigami.

patedecarne
May 19, 2008, 12:53 PM
According with last chapter, Kensei and Mashiro's reiatsu just vanished; I cannot remember if in Ichigo's training with vaizards, his reiatsu vanished as well, but when we look carefully ti Kensei's mask, it doesn't like as the same of normal Hollows;

And without a soul, I don't think Kensei would be able to return to his human form by himself; here's where I believe the gigai will pay a role, but in the process, a new form will born, the vaizard;

sk.nite
May 19, 2008, 01:04 PM
According with last chapter, Kensei and Mashiro's reiatsu just vanished; I cannot remember if in Ichigo's training with vaizards, his reiatsu vanished as well, but when we look carefully ti Kensei's mask, it doesn't like as the same of normal Hollows;

And without a soul, I don't think Kensei would be able to return to his human form by himself; here's where I believe the gigai will pay a role, but in the process, a new form will born, the vaizard;

I think the reason they cannot detect their reiatsu it's because the hollow has taken over the "physical form" of the soul and therefore they emit a hollow's reiatsu (remember what H.Ichigo said to Ichigo in their last fight about two spirits in one body, though he was talking about Zangetsu I think it still applies here).

Also, wasn't the gigai that Urahara created an undetectable one?(which was the reason given for his exile). That could have been what the vizards used to vanish from ss, but I doubt it has anything to do with the actual hollowification process.

One more comment: If Kensei stays in that full hollow form for too long, that means he lost against his inner hollow, and there's no return from that. Since we know that Kensei is not some hollow rampanging through ss now, i'll make a "prediction" and say that he won against his inner hollow and became a vizard

Kopien
May 19, 2008, 01:21 PM
I may be blanking, but i do believe we only know 3 of the 4 noble houses...

Shihouin, kuchiki, shiba (fallen but still counted as one)... what is the fourth? am i forgetting it or has it just... not been said.

i know that was somewhat off topic.

On a more on-topic note, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/08/ may be preluding to those two being with the defending party of the soul society from the 'rampage' and seeing yamamoto and all fight off the vizards. Speculation can have rewards.

Oomaeda, the vice captain of the 2nd division is from nobility.

kalerab
May 19, 2008, 01:25 PM
Oomaeda, the vice captain of the 2nd division is from nobility.

Oomaeda can be "only" of dozen noble clans, not one of the 4 great houses. Just like Kasumi-Ōji clan.

Morlun
May 19, 2008, 01:39 PM
Oomaeda is of a minor nobility clan (confirmed in an omake).

According to Soi Fon (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/154/10/), when she fought Yoruichi, there were 4 (main) Noble Families. That means the Shiba family was the 5th.

So it's something like this:

- Shihouin
- Kuchiki
- ?
- ?
- Shiba

Looking at the obvious suspects for the two empty spots, we have:

- the royal family, whoever they are
- Shigekuni
- Unohana
- Kyouraku
- Ukitake
- Tsukabishi
- Hikifune

These are the uber-sempai families of the Gotei 13. If any known character ends up being a "top-4" noble, I think it'll be one of these. Other than that, it'll be someone unknown.

Tsukisama
May 19, 2008, 02:23 PM
Oomaeda is of a minor nobility clan (confirmed in an omake).

According to Soi Fon (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/154/10/), when she fought Yoruichi, there were 4 (main) Noble Families. That means the Shiba family was the 5th.

So it's something like this:

- Shihouin
- Kuchiki
- ?
- ?
- Shiba

Looking at the obvious suspects for the two empty spots, we have:

- the royal family, whoever they are
- Shigekuni
- Unohana
- Kyouraku
- Ukitake
- Tsukabishi
- Hikifune

These are the uber-sempai families of the Gotei 13. If any known character ends up being a "top-4" noble, I think it'll be one of these. Other than that, it'll be someone unknown.

Ukitake is from a lesser aristocratic family. Kyoraku's family is also said to be a noble family (not specified to my knowledge of lesser nobility) and could be one of the four. All of the other clans are unknown at this point. Shigekuni is sotaichou's given name (Yamamoto clan I guess).

The royal family would be inherently not be included as one of the four noble families. Nobility and royalty are separate, and thus the four great noble families could not include royalty.

I think that at least one of the families will be of characters completely not introduced at this point.
[hr]

And without a soul, I don't think Kensei would be able to return to his human form by himself; here's where I believe the gigai will pay a role, but in the process, a new form will born, the vaizard;

I am not sure what you mean by this, since Kensei is a spirit himself. When Ichigo went through his process, he went through it as a soul outside of his body. Thus, another spirit like Kensei should be able to do something similar without having a physical body.

patedecarne
May 19, 2008, 02:37 PM
Yes, maybe the correct term should be reiatsu, but what I mean is: his physical form and reiatsu both vanished, then, his spirit, soul as well; and throught this process, I'm thinking that Kensei is no more: just a monster in Kensei's kimono, but without any traces from the "captain Kensei";

Yes, it's commplicated to explain, given the fact that we're talking about spirits with human shape where their souls were used in experiments...

Doombot
May 19, 2008, 02:52 PM
I'm going to still tend to believe that Isshin is going to be older the Shinji. His Uniform is just so different that it's easier to believe him being part of the Royal Guard instead of any other division. We will have to wait and see what a Royal Guard uniform looks like. Maybe the reason Shinji doesn't recall Isshin's pressure is because he was in Hollow form when Isshin showed up to clear up the mess.


The other captains tend to not know very much about Squad Zero, Royal Guard, and I believe that Kubo introduced them for a reason in this Gaiden to show that they are actually made up of all captain level people. If they have these seat ranking like the other divisions it would bring one to believe that a captain of the Royal Guards could be on par, or better, with Aizen as we know him today.

Tsukisama
May 19, 2008, 03:05 PM
Yes, maybe the correct term should be reiatsu, but what I mean is: his physical form and reiatsu both vanished, then, his spirit, soul as well; and throught this process, I'm thinking that Kensei is no more: just a monster in Kensei's kimono, but without any traces from the "captain Kensei";

Yes, it's commplicated to explain, given the fact that we're talking about spirits with human shape where their souls were used in experiments...

Yes, Kensei's physical form has changed, but so did Ichigo's. When Ichigo went through his training with Urahara, he was separated from his body and was just a spirit. The form of his spirit changed into that of a hollow, but once he restored his "inner universe," he regained a shinigami form.

Then, when he trained with the vizards and confronted his inner hollow, he was once again in spirit form and his outer spirit form took the form of a hollow while he battled his hollow in his inner universe. Again, after regaining control, his outer spirit form reverted to that of a shinigami.

Kensei could be doing a similar thing here. His outer spirit form is that of a hollow, but in his inner universe (which he may also need to restore like Ichigo did), he could be battling his inner hollow and when he regains control, his outer spirit form will revert back to normal.

Ravis
May 19, 2008, 04:18 PM
I think the Vizards will simply temporarly supress their hollow for the time, sort of like when ichigo was fighting Hyori he didnt fight his iner hollow to regain corntrol he simply got takled by the other vizards. The inner battle was said to be timed, thats why they said it had to be done in an hour. I belive thay even gave hyori's time down to the sec. and i cant see anyone of the "rescue team" holding a stop watch to find out how long they take while fighting one to return to normal.

As for as Isshin goes I dont think will see him at all. That just sounds like tipping your whole hand as for as the story goes. although i do fancy Isshin as a member of dev. 0 as to why noone recognizes him he could have ran away / retired before shinji was even born. Or even, maybe hes the reason why no one is aloud to retire...

sk.nite
May 19, 2008, 04:48 PM
When Ichigo supressed his hollow, only one half of his head transformed. This looks like a full transformation, just like the moment before Ichigo defeated his inner hollow for good.
And maybe the vizards didn't include Kensei in the time records (most likely, since when Hiyori was attacked Kensei had probably already transformed, at least partially).

Tsukisama
May 19, 2008, 05:10 PM
When Ichigo supressed his hollow, only one half of his head transformed. This looks like a full transformation, just like the moment before Ichigo defeated his inner hollow for good.

That is why I said that the vizards' process is probably similar instead of saying it is the same. Kensei and the others may have gone through the entire process at once instead of the way Ichigo restored his inner universe and then much later confronted his inner hollow, or may not have needed to restore their inner universe and just confronted their inner hollow.


And maybe the vizards didn't include Kensei in the time records (most likely, since when Hiyori was attacked Kensei had probably already transformed, at least partially).

By that logic, Mashiro also would not be included since she probably transformed before Hiyori was attacked as well. I don't know how exactly the vizards kept track of how long their transformations took, but I doubt that they had to rely on someone else clocking them and instead estimated their times themselves after they were done with their transformations.

maraxusofk
May 19, 2008, 05:12 PM
So we finally have the barrier being broken. All we saw was kensei get stabbed and if we are assuming that kensei is going through the same process that ichigo went through then shouldnt kensei be considered dead. Urahara did say to ichigo that if he doesnt achieve to recover his shinigami powers before he turns into a hollow then its too late for him, they would have to kill him. Well kensei (although looks bad ass) is now a hollow, doenst that mean its too late for him. I think that it was more then just a stab at kensei, maybe i would have to injure a person to the point where they cant move to test of them. Injure them in anyway possible. So the hougyoku breaks the barrier between a hollow and shinigami, so is it being used against kensei....who knows, but that is something I want to know by the end of this arc.

ur forgetting the fact that for ichigo it was a human > shinigami transformation. for kensei its a shinigam > hollow. the same thing happened when ichigo tried to become a vaizard remember?

Morlun
May 19, 2008, 05:38 PM
Ukitake is from a lesser aristocratic family. Kyoraku's family is also said to be a noble family (not specified to my knowledge of lesser nobility) and could be one of the four. All of the other clans are unknown at this point. Shigekuni is sotaichou's given name (Yamamoto clan I guess).

The royal family would be inherently not be included as one of the four noble families. Nobility and royalty are separate, and thus the four great noble families could not include royalty.

I think that at least one of the families will be of characters completely not introduced at this point.

Re: Yamamoto-Genryuusai Shigekuni - AAAARGH! I had it right in the timeline and I "corrected" it to the wrong version. Curses.

*ahem*

Thanks.

And thanks for the info on Ukitake and Shunsui. Considering Shunsui's ostentatious haori, he was a prime candidate of mine for nobility... but I wouldn't be too surprised if the two other families are of (as of yet) unknown people.

As for the royal family, while I do not believe they are part of the 4 families, it may be just semantics, but royalty is nobility by definition. :)

Tsukisama
May 19, 2008, 06:10 PM
As for the royal family, while I do not believe they are part of the 4 families, it may be just semantics, but royalty is nobility by definition. :)

Your first correction was correct actually. In Japan, the terms for royalty and nobility are different, with a clear distinction between the two. The noble families in Bleach do not include the royal family.

ShaunMati1
May 19, 2008, 06:20 PM
ur forgetting the fact that for ichigo it was a human > shinigami transformation. for kensei its a shinigam > hollow. the same thing happened when ichigo tried to become a vaizard remember?

No i know, im not saying that their processes are the same. Im just assuming they are just because all we saw was kensei being stabbed, and that cant be the reason hes turning into a hollow. Of course i remember ichigos hollowfication, one of my favorite times in bleach....i understand its the same thing but, there is a time limit and if kensei is going the what ichigo went through with the vaizards then kensei has to be saved with the gigai.

Tsukisama
May 19, 2008, 06:33 PM
i understand its the same thing but, there is a time limit and if kensei is going the what ichigo went through with the vaizards then kensei has to be saved with the gigai.

Why would Kensei need to be saved with a gigai? Why couldn't Kensei just overcome his hollow and revert to his shinigami form on his own? We don't know how much time has elapsed so far; so, all of the events of the past two chapters could be happening in a short time span.

Grimjaww
May 19, 2008, 06:38 PM
When Ichigo supressed his hollow, only one half of his head transformed. This looks like a full transformation, just like the moment before Ichigo defeated his inner hollow for good.
And maybe the vizards didn't include Kensei in the time records (most likely, since when Hiyori was attacked Kensei had probably already transformed, at least partially).

You can't assume that this is different, each time Ichigo's hollow side comes out to help him out, he begins to form a hollow mask with each passing minute. If the mask is complete, why wouldn't it start to create a hollow body?


Also someone stated Shinji might not remember Isshin's reaitsu because he was in his hollow form, but Ichigo remembers everything that his hollow side did when it took over, he just couldnt overcome him to regain control of his body until the end, exactly what happend to Yusuke in Yu Yu Hakusho considering the countless similarities of the series................

sk.nite
May 19, 2008, 07:03 PM
Why would Kensei need to be saved with a gigai? Why couldn't Kensei just overcome his hollow and revert to his shinigami form on his own? We don't know how much time has elapsed so far; so, all of the events of the past two chapters could be happening in a short time span.

It most likely did, taking into consideration that a captain's speed is much higher than any other shinigami, so it wouldn't have passed much time since Hiyori arrived and was attacked by Kensei and the arrival of Shinji.

Grimmjow, I don't understand your question. When did I talk about a body transformation after the head does(about that NOT happening, actually)?

hyn_pride93
May 19, 2008, 07:07 PM
^ what if Shinji didnt remember Isshin's reiatsu bcuz he was going through a vizardificatiion thingy... and Isshin was someone that was helping to keep him controlled.

but what i think is, Isshin is one of the three figures we saw a few chapters back. and what happened was he ended up being kicked out for something and then wen he was kicked out Urahara and the others (meaning Yoruichi) were kicked out at the same time. and Isshin was given the special gigai that drained ur reiatsu. and what happened was, Isshin's reiatsu ended up changing slightly bcuz of the gigai and thats y Urahara was kicked out. bcuz his gigai could not only make tracking another shinigamis reiatsu virtually impossible, but it could also change it/alter it so that it seem as if it were a totally new person

Doombot
May 19, 2008, 07:52 PM
I doubt Isshin was one of the 3 for the simple reason that he isn't a bad guy. The reason why he was kicked out of SS is probably going to be involved with his love of a human (or perhaps Quincy) woman. They always so his total devotion to Ichigo's mother even in death and I think that is foreshadowing that he gave everything up to be with her.

This is why I think he is part of the Shiba clan because it gives good reason for them to have been a "fallen" noble house. I could be wrong but it would be fishy and make little to no sense if Isshin was one of the 3 figures that are clearly the trouble-makers in all of this. But if you want to believe that Isshin is a bad guy whatever.

Grimjaww
May 19, 2008, 08:45 PM
Grimmjow, I don't understand your question. When did I talk about a body transformation after the head does(about that NOT happening, actually)?

Sorry my misunderstanding.

Saifi
May 19, 2008, 09:30 PM
Also why didnt anyone think it weird that the kurosaki family could always see ghosts. Maybe Isshin did something with kidou or healing as well, seeing how he is a doctor and all !

jocouslie
May 19, 2008, 09:38 PM
i'm reading through the soul society arc chapters and i found this: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/04/ where tousen is inviting komamura to see an officer from his division... and then here: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/05/ also here http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/06/ I think these pages tells us that aizen is still a vice captain when tousen joins the gotei 13, meaning the trio(gin,tousen,aizen) are in the same division that are the 5th division. this got me to thinking: what if they are really the trio who's been experimenting in the gaiden arc?

Saifi
May 19, 2008, 09:45 PM
good find , plus that does imply that they were always in league , and also proof that zaraki is not a captain since tousin is not wearing a white captains cloak , nor a "conveniently white" squad 9 cloak !

jocouslie
May 19, 2008, 09:52 PM
yes saifi, you're right. there's definitely a plot hole in zaraki kenpachi's captaincy. so this put out the theory that tousen is a ninth division member.

Tsukisama
May 19, 2008, 10:00 PM
Also why didnt anyone think it weird that the kurosaki family could always see ghosts. Maybe Isshin did something with kidou or healing as well, seeing how he is a doctor and all !

The Kurosaki family being spiritually aware can probably be explained by Isshin being a former shinigami. It has already been stated in the manga that people who are around those with large spiritual pressure have increased spiritual awareness and may even develop spiritual powers. Since the Kurosaki kids are the loin fruits of an extremely powerful shinigami, this could explain their innate spiritual awareness.

As for Isshin doing with something with kidou or even healing, anything is possible. Even though he is a doctor in the real world, that does not mean that he had any involvement in medics of SS or even kidou. Interesting to note, Kubo had originally thought to make Isshin and a mortician but decided against it later. (Although this is not one of my primary reasons, I take into consideration.) I wouldn't put too much stock into Isshin being related to medicine.

The prime kidou and medical specialists have already been named: Tessai and Unohana. These are specialized fields, and thus I am doubtful that there will be another character with significance in those fields of equal or greater status. The mystery surrounding Isshin, coupled with the seemingly substantial amount of power he possess even having been diminished as stated in his discussion with Urahara, suggest that he will have been a very powerful character with probably some great significance in SS. Isshin may or may not have some knowledge of kidou or shinigami medical procedure, but it won't be something noteworthy enough to be a defining characteristic.


i'm reading through the soul society arc chapters and i found this: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/04/ where tousen is inviting komamura to see an officer from his division... and then here: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/05/ also here http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/06/ I think these pages tells us that aizen is still a vice captain when tousen joins the gotei 13, meaning the trio(gin,tousen,aizen) is in the same division that is the 5th division. this got me to thinking: what if they are really the trio who's been experimenting in the gaiden arc?

This has actually been brought up before. Tousen did join the 5th division during Aizen's time as 5th division lieutenant. Therefore he may currently be in the 5th division and even a cohort in Aizen's machinations, making him a definite candidate for a member of the mystery trio from a few chapters ago.

ElNino11922
May 20, 2008, 12:04 AM
i reckon that Kensei is currently battling his inner hollow for supremacy just like ichigo did. And eventually when he regains control of himself his arrested and more captains are attacked, and the same thing happens with them and are eventually exiled, and thats y they hate SS they the victims are victimized. Might sound a bit bland but its realistic at least.

Remember Ichigo turned fully into a hollow and the vizards had to contain him when he was battling his, so i reckon this is the same thing.

Steve
May 20, 2008, 01:44 AM
I may be blanking, but i do believe we only know 3 of the 4 noble houses...

Shihouin, kuchiki, shiba (fallen but still counted as one)... what is the fourth? am i forgetting it or has it just... not been said.

i know that was somewhat off topic.

I may be wrong as well, but 2nd Division vice-captain wasn't related to this 4th family?
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shinigami_in_Bleach#2nd_Division) doesn't help me to understand.

Anyway, back on topic: I predict Isshin coming out somewhere in this gaiden, but the end seems obvious to me.
The soon-to-be Vaizards will be pwned by some zampakuto power (whose shinigami will be eliminated and treated as scapegoat by Aizen and Gin), Urahara will be exiled for knowing-but-not-helping and Yoruichi... dunno, I'm curious :D

Grimjaww
May 20, 2008, 02:08 AM
If Aizen is behind this and made perfect Vaizards, then there would be no point in stealing the hougyoku, so that theory doesn't seem too convincing at the moment.

Ceestar
May 20, 2008, 02:36 AM
I do apologise if someone has brought this up, I haven't been through all the pages of this or the previous chapter's discussions. Also I'm not sure if this theory makes sense, I'm a little vague on some Bleach information, especially stuff from earlier in the series.

These are my notes...
-Kisuke told Hiyori about that gigai he was playing with, and the purpose he was messing with it (the disappearing souls)
-When sending Hiyori to help the 9th Division, he said to take whatever she needed.
-Hiyori is shown carrying a large box in the final panel of that chapter (-103).
(said box has since disappeared)

Could is be possible that she took the gigai? In hopes of resucing any dying souls? I mean it's a bit of a long shot, considering I can't see her just running off with some of Kisuke's stuff, but it's a theory.
The hole I'm trying to fill is that there are ... 9 Vizards? Well, several, and I'm assuming 1 gigai. Perphaps they use this on Kensei and ... well I'm not sure about the others.
He looks more like a weird robot thing than a monster at the moment, Kensei that is.

And I personally don't think Risa and Ise-fukutaichou are related, it's probably a similar situation to Rukia. Like how Ichigo reminds her so much of Kaien kinda thing. Somebody mentioned that's why Kyouraku-taichou is so protective of his lieutenant, refusing to lose another one like this.

In a way I'm glad this arc is ending so we can get back to the main story, but at the same time this arc has been so exciting I wouldn't mind it going for a little longer. (still I'd like it to go back to the main story soon so I can see where Izuru is...Hisagi having been mentioned in this gaiden makes me think he'll play a significant role in the coming arc)

Morlun
May 20, 2008, 02:43 AM
Your first correction was correct actually. In Japan, the terms for royalty and nobility are different, with a clear distinction between the two. The noble families in Bleach do not include the royal family.

Ah, that's what threw me off then. I googled and corrected myself, then googled again 'cause it wasn't making sense to me, and re-corrected myself. :) In Europe, royalty are the highest of nobles. Oh, well, I stand re-re-corrected. :D Thanks.

patastinky
May 20, 2008, 04:45 AM
Here's what i think. TODO was killed on his way back to the camp site where the 9th divison was. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.6/14/
Take a look at his face. Also the background is in "blacked out" meaning that he's intent is evil! (at least that's how i see it). Then take a look at pages 16 and 17. Todo is still in a black background and his face is emotionless. I believe that Aizen (or his sword) took Todo's form. As soon as Todo got back he told the 2 other guys who were guarding the tent that "he would relieve them" wtf!! Homeboy just ran to inform the Uraharra about the 10 missing shinigami. Why would he say that, if he wasn't trying to kill them. He should be tired! Shortly after that the two Shinigami are killed and Todo is left standing.. !! Todo' would not have been strong enough to kill those two guarding unless he was a high level Shinigami, which he isn't they are all of equal level hence his outfit.

Anyways what i am getting at is that Kisuke, on page 17 realizes this, but is too late. That's why he freaks out and calls for his Lieut. I can't believe i didnt' see this earlier.. Todo seems so freaking shady when he returned! If you look at the previous chapter he is always in white background and has some kind of expression on his face. I can't wait to see what happens in the next chapter

kunai-knight
May 20, 2008, 06:06 AM
Here's what i think. TODO was killed on his way back to the camp site where the 9th divison was. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.6/14/
Take a look at his face. Also the background is in "blacked out" meaning that he's intent is evil! (at least that's how i see it). Then take a look at pages 16 and 17. Todo is still in a black background and his face is emotionless. I believe that Aizen (or his sword) took Todo's form. As soon as Todo got back he told the 2 other guys who were guarding the tent that "he would relieve them" wtf!! Homeboy just ran to inform the Uraharra about the 10 missing shinigami. Why would he say that, if he wasn't trying to kill them. He should be tired! Shortly after that the two Shinigami are killed and Todo is left standing.. !! Todo' would not have been strong enough to kill those two guarding unless he was a high level Shinigami, which he isn't they are all of equal level hence his outfit.

Anyways what i am getting at is that Kisuke, on page 17 realizes this, but is too late. That's why he freaks out and calls for his Lieut. I can't believe i didnt' see this earlier.. Todo seems so freaking shady when he returned! If you look at the previous chapter he is always in white background and has some kind of expression on his face. I can't wait to see what happens in the next chapter

this has been mentioned before. we're all almost certain that he had something to do with the killing of the other team members.

Steve
May 20, 2008, 06:29 AM
I believe that Aizen (or his sword) took Todo's form.

You do realize that Aizen must have spoken about his powers before activating them, right?
We have no trace of Aizen speaking to Urahara or to the entire 9th Division about his own shikai, so IMO this opinion is "for fanfics only" :)

patedecarne
May 20, 2008, 07:15 AM
I do apologise if someone has brought this up, I haven't been through all the pages of this or the previous chapter's discussions. Also I'm not sure if this theory makes sense, I'm a little vague on some Bleach information, especially stuff from earlier in the series.

These are my notes...
-Kisuke told Hiyori about that gigai he was playing with, and the purpose he was messing with it (the disappearing souls)
-When sending Hiyori to help the 9th Division, he said to take whatever she needed.
-Hiyori is shown carrying a large box in the final panel of that chapter (-103).
(said box has since disappeared)

Could is be possible that she took the gigai? In hopes of resucing any dying souls? I mean it's a bit of a long shot, considering I can't see her just running off with some of Kisuke's stuff, but it's a theory.
The hole I'm trying to fill is that there are ... 9 Vizards? Well, several, and I'm assuming 1 gigai. Perphaps they use this on Kensei and ... well I'm not sure about the others.
He looks more like a weird robot thing than a monster at the moment, Kensei that is.


There's no need to apologize, Ceestar, because tou brought a valid point here!

I also think that Hiyori is carrying the gigai, even if Kisuke gave her another tool, the gigai probably is one of them, and the worries coming from Urahara could be due the fact Hiyori is with a dangerous tool, never tested before, and who knows the results if Hiyori try it on Kensei;

And like you said, still we have 7 pre vaizards left, and one gigai isn't enough; unless Urahara already prepared another gigai, and I'm really thinking he won't wait in his squad;

Silhouette
May 20, 2008, 07:31 AM
These are my notes...
-Kisuke told Hiyori about that gigai he was playing with, and the purpose he was messing with it (the disappearing souls)
-When sending Hiyori to help the 9th Division, he said to take whatever she needed.
-Hiyori is shown carrying a large box in the final panel of that chapter (-103).
(said box has since disappeared)

Could is be possible that she took the gigai? In hopes of resucing any dying souls? I mean it's a bit of a long shot, considering I can't see her just running off with some of Kisuke's stuff, but it's a theory.
The hole I'm trying to fill is that there are ... 9 Vizards? Well, several, and I'm assuming 1 gigai. Perphaps they use this on Kensei and ... well I'm not sure about the others.
He looks more like a weird robot thing than a monster at the moment, Kensei that is.


Hiyori might have taken the gigai to save victims if they were vanishing but stil,l it won't be needed in Kensie's case at least. Becasue Kensie didn't vanish and therefore the gigai is not needed. If what's happening to Kensie is similar to what happened to Ichigo, then Kensie will overpower his hollow eventually and become a vizard/shinigami again without the need for a gigai.

This arc may last longer than 2 months, after all 2 months was just an estimate by Kubo.

sk.nite
May 20, 2008, 08:32 AM
If Aizen is behind this and made perfect Vaizards, then there would be no point in stealing the hougyoku, so that theory doesn't seem too convincing at the moment.

We don't know if they are perfect, since they are the only ones (besides ichigo). Maybe hollowfication through the hougyoku makes a vizard much more powerful. It would be something logical, since it happens that way with arrancars. Also, if Aizen was the responsible for the creation of the vaizards, I doubt they would be willing to obey him ("You turned me into a frickin' monster bastard!")

THETRUTH.com
May 20, 2008, 08:52 AM
If Aizen is behind this and made perfect Vaizards, then there would be no point in stealing the hougyoku, so that theory doesn't seem too convincing at the moment.


This method is far from perfect it isnt even stable. Mashiro was able to control her hollow from the beginning while Hyori and Ichigo had the longest recorded internal battles. The arrancar seem to require no particlar training time to use their power. Also the possible unstable nature(unexpected breaks) of using the mask and the fatigue that come if the mask breaks accidentally would leave the person vulnerable. Taking into account the amount of post-hollowification it take to control the powers while still having with varying results. All the time needing to utilize captain-class shinigami to make the transformation possible. This method is not perfect. Just looking at the results immediately after the transformation, this experiment looks like a complete failure.

Tsukisama
May 20, 2008, 09:52 PM
I may be wrong as well, but 2nd Division vice-captain wasn't related to this 4th family?
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shinigami_in_Bleach#2nd_Division) doesn't help me to understand.

Anyway, back on topic: I predict Isshin coming out somewhere in this gaiden, but the end seems obvious to me.
The soon-to-be Vaizards will be pwned by some zampakuto power (whose shinigami will be eliminated and treated as scapegoat by Aizen and Gin), Urahara will be exiled for knowing-but-not-helping and Yoruichi... dunno, I'm curious :D

In Soul Society, you have the Rukongai in which reside the souls of people who die in the real world entering SS as peasants. Beyond the Rukongai, spearated by a great wall is the Seireitei, where the shinigami and noble families live (reminiscent of how the samurai and daimyo where seen as being of greater status in feudal Japan). Among the noble families, there are four most prominent noble families.

Oomaeda is from one of the lesser noble families, not one of the four great noble families like the Kuchiki and Shihouin clans. Although we typically refer to the four great noble clans as simply the "four noble clans," there are other noble families residing in Seireitei. All of the shinigami either started off as peasants from Rukongai or a member of a noble family from Seireitei.


I do apologise if someone has brought this up, I haven't been through all the pages of this or the previous chapter's discussions. Also I'm not sure if this theory makes sense, I'm a little vague on some Bleach information, especially stuff from earlier in the series.

These are my notes...
-Kisuke told Hiyori about that gigai he was playing with, and the purpose he was messing with it (the disappearing souls)
-When sending Hiyori to help the 9th Division, he said to take whatever she needed.
-Hiyori is shown carrying a large box in the final panel of that chapter (-103).
(said box has since disappeared)

Could is be possible that she took the gigai? In hopes of resucing any dying souls? I mean it's a bit of a long shot, considering I can't see her just running off with some of Kisuke's stuff, but it's a theory.
The hole I'm trying to fill is that there are ... 9 Vizards? Well, several, and I'm assuming 1 gigai. Perphaps they use this on Kensei and ... well I'm not sure about the others.
He looks more like a weird robot thing than a monster at the moment, Kensei that is.

And I personally don't think Risa and Ise-fukutaichou are related, it's probably a similar situation to Rukia. Like how Ichigo reminds her so much of Kaien kinda thing. Somebody mentioned that's why Kyouraku-taichou is so protective of his lieutenant, refusing to lose another one like this.

In a way I'm glad this arc is ending so we can get back to the main story, but at the same time this arc has been so exciting I wouldn't mind it going for a little longer. (still I'd like it to go back to the main story soon so I can see where Izuru is...Hisagi having been mentioned in this gaiden makes me think he'll play a significant role in the coming arc)

As Silhouette pointed out, Hiyori could very well be holding a gigai, but the vizards will not be needing one to stabilize because we know that they eventually revert back to the original selves. I personally don't think that that box will play a large role in the plot. As you stated, she was carrying it at the end of chapter 103 and does not appear in this chapter. My guess that it contained equipment (possibly even a gigai), but the important part of next chapter will be the future vizards transforming and rampaging, not this box.

Izuru is more than likely not going to show up for a while longer when the plot returns to the present. The plot will likely focus on the battles between Ichigo and Ulquiorra and between the SS forces present to fight Aizen. My guess is that Izuru along with the other unseen lieutenants are holding down the fort in SS, since somebody needs to stay in command for the rest of the forces.

Hisagi being shown in this gaiden probably does not mean that he will become a major character. More likely, this was just done to provide some interesting backstory and fill out the chapter. During the chapter where he first appeared, it could have just Kensei on patrol and fighting hollows, but Kubo made it more interesting by tying in another character from the present. It is nice to have some background information on Shuuhei, but the chances of him becoming a central character are still rather small.


Ah, that's what threw me off then. I googled and corrected myself, then googled again 'cause it wasn't making sense to me, and re-corrected myself. :) In Europe, royalty are the highest of nobles. Oh, well, I stand re-re-corrected. :D Thanks.

No problem. Concepts of nobility and royalty differ depending on where you are. I was aware that you were probably thinking eurocentrically when you replied. This is good, since I am sure at least someone out there may have been thinking along the same lines as you.


You do realize that Aizen must have spoken about his powers before activating them, right?
We have no trace of Aizen speaking to Urahara or to the entire 9th Division about his own shikai, so IMO this opinion is "for fanfics only" :)

We have had a nine gap between the beginning of Urahara's captaincy and now. We cannot be sure whether Aizen has ever shown his shikai to Urahara (and even less sure about the members of the 9th division) or not. Thus, you cannot rule out this as a possiblity.

Steve
May 21, 2008, 12:47 AM
Oomaeda is from one of the lesser noble families, not one of the four great noble families like the Kuchiki and Shihouin clans. Although we typically refer to the four great noble clans as simply the "four noble clans," there are other noble families residing in Seireitei. All of the shinigami either started off as peasants from Rukongai or a member of a noble family from Seireitei.

Thanks, it seems I mis-understood that part :)
I wonder if one of these four family is the one that is being named in the current anime filler arc... but the filler arc may not be canon anyway, so in the end we can only say that we're off topic :D



It is nice to have some background information on Shuuhei, but the chances of him becoming a central character are still rather small.

Fully agree on that point.
Very nice (and speechless!) moments, though.


We have had a nine years gap between the beginning of Urahara's captaincy and now. We cannot be sure whether Aizen has ever shown his shikai to Urahara (and even less sure about the members of the 9th division) or not. Thus, you cannot rule out this as a possiblity.

The only possibility I can currently recognize is Shinji knowing about Kyōka Suigetsu as he is Aizen's superior. More than knowing -- appreciating, since he chose him as 5th Division vice-captain.
Anyway, wathcing back on http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/171/11/ , the condition is "to show the initial release", not to talk about the sword. If we can name "initial release" the dirty trick that Aizen used when Shinji and Urahara talked, then we could maybe have our point.

Darek Khort
May 21, 2008, 05:59 AM
The current filler arc names a family under the top 4. I think they mentioned they were 2nd in ranking in terms of those families who aren't the top 4. So basically 6th in rank if that makes sense.
In other words, not related to the Top 4. It's a filler arc, so that's to be expected.

funex
May 21, 2008, 01:20 PM
i can see this coming:
this is infact the last of the "turn back the pendulum" series
the next is going to be back to aizen vs gottei 13 and the vaizards
and the rest of how the history of the vizard will be told in flashbacks during the figth

hyn_pride93
May 21, 2008, 03:45 PM
well, i think that after chapter -101, then we'll end up back with Aizen them. and so, i guess i kind of agree with u on the whole thing. -100 wont happen, probably, it'll return to the story


----side note----- i hate finals. but who cares bcuz i only have one more left and thats english. then i finish sku and everyone else finishes tomorrow. why? bcuz i have frees during periods 7 and 8.. :)

sk.nite
May 21, 2008, 05:29 PM
If it ends in the next chapter, there's gonna be a giant cliffhanger. I doubt that everithing that's supposed to happen can be squeezed into 17 or 18 pages.

kunai-knight
May 21, 2008, 08:19 PM
If it ends in the next chapter, there's gonna be a giant cliffhanger. I doubt that everithing that's supposed to happen can be squeezed into 17 or 18 pages.

I thought the same thing for Mx0 when it ended, it was on chap 98 and everyone wondered how it would end in the next 2 chapters. (to get to chap 100)

But it ended quite nicely in chap 99, so i won't say its necessarily going to be a cliffhanger, but it probably will be, considering Kubo's writing style.

Tsukisama
May 21, 2008, 08:31 PM
The only possibility I can currently recognize is Shinji knowing about Kyōka Suigetsu as he is Aizen's superior. More than knowing -- appreciating, since he chose him as 5th Division vice-captain.
Anyway, wathcing back on http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/171/11/ , the condition is "to show the initial release", not to talk about the sword. If we can name "initial release" the dirty trick that Aizen used when Shinji and Urahara talked, then we could maybe have our point.

Yes, the condition for Kyouka Suigetsu's complete hypnosis to work is that you must witness his release.

If the illusory thing of Aizen that Shinji broke was his shikai, Shinji probably has some idea of what Aizen's shikai can do. This scenario, however, has been brought up and challenged before, because it raises a problem. When we first learn about the true power of Aizen's shikai during his exchange with Captain Unohana and Isane, it is revealed that he has been deceiving everyone in SS by pretending that his zanpakutou was a flowing-water type that created illusory figures in a mist or fog. If Shinji knew the true power of Aizen's zanpakutou, then why would he not tell anyone and allow everyone in SS to be deceived for the next hundred years or so?

patedecarne
May 21, 2008, 09:21 PM
Maybe because Shinji only comes to discover that when it was too late; Probably if/when Shinji find out that the stabber is Aizen, he also can discover his true power, but in this meantime, the huge event could be happened, and Shinji unfortunately couldn't tell the truth about KS;

And add to this the fact Shinji and the vaizards were aware from Aizen's plans, but it was unlikely they fought with Aizen in earth, so their last contact with Aizen ws in SS in this incident, where Aizen explained everything about his plans;

Just speculation, but a possibility...

faximus9999
May 21, 2008, 11:33 PM
hello everyone... first post... :headbang

I enjoy reading everyone's input - its all so brilliant and intelligent

Searched through most of the posts and I haven't found one about this nagging theory of mine

my speculative theory: Aizen wanted the 12th captain position ever since the position opened. However, he's pissed off at everyone who agreed on Urahara. On top of that, Urahara sealed the fate of the 12th division by taking Mayuri on as his replacement if anything should happen to him. This pissed off Aizen to no end. (Old grudges usually run deep in epic stories like these, for example - Brolly vs Goku - they were babies - yet he harbored that hatred all his life for Goku - had to use DBZ as an example :darn)

That small trick that Shinji saw through in -108 was one of his experiments. Yes, he's also pissed off at Shinji for not recommending him to Yama about being the 12th captain.

and I agree that Isshin could be an ex-SHIBA clan member - he can in fact be the father of Kuukaku, Ganjyu and Kaien

http://http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/80/02/

Kuukaku looks like what Karin will turn into when she gets older - plus they both have tempers

I bet Masaki was the 'KUROSAKI' and Isshin took her last name

Alright, so -101, a hollow form seems to be connected to what their shikai is.

hichigo has already mentioned that he himself and Zangetsu are one and the same. in fact - he IS Zangetsu

http://http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/220/09/

Shinji's Pharaoh form even Hiyori's Rhino - these are just their shikai's ability - so if Renji ever becomes a Vizard, his would be a Baboon with a Cobra tail - but I'm sure someone has figured this out already

someguy0830
May 21, 2008, 11:47 PM
Then how do you explain Ichigo becoming a lizard?

faximus9999
May 22, 2008, 01:54 AM
Then how do you explain Ichigo becoming a lizard?

Ah! I stand corrected - their hollow form could be their Bankai instead of their shikai. Which is probably why Ichigo is a lizard -

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAo09yYOpCU

look at the way the legs are -

http://http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/222/02/

it could also explain his running Speed.:p

Look at Kensei's Shikai - it's a Bowie Knife his bankai/Hollow form took on a Knight-like warrior - with missle like appendages coming out of his back... :blink

Now... seeing that this is supposedly "aizen's experiment" [disclosure: speculation], it would seem that Shinigami or SS citizens with strong reiatsu are the ones who are able to take on a hollow form as the weak ones are the ones that disappear. the 10 Vanguard members were strong but all melded into one being - (like an adjuchas) stronger reiatsu gains their own form (vastolorde class) Which means, Hiyori, Risa, Hacchi and Mashiro's have reiatsu that's strong enough to be captain-class.

another example of the Bankai theory - Ikkaku - shikai: a sansetsukon (three-piece nunchaku); bankai: Ryuumon Hoozukimaru (Dragon Crest Ogre Lamp) if he turned into a hollow, it would be a Dragon Ogre Lamp amalgamation:tem

I know... it's a bit far fetched...

deidara-sensai
May 22, 2008, 02:10 AM
i just know something huge will happen

maraxusofk
May 22, 2008, 02:50 AM
Yes, the condition for Kyouka Suigetsu's complete hypnosis to work is that you must witness his release.

If the illusory thing of Aizen that Shinji broke was his shikai, Shinji probably has some idea of what Aizen's shikai can do. This scenario, however, has been brought up and challenged before, because it raises a problem. When we first learn about the true power of Aizen's shikai during his exchange with Captain Unohana and Isane, it is revealed that he has been deceiving everyone in SS by pretending that his zanpakutou was a flowing-water type that created illusory figures in a mist or fog. If Shinji knew the true power of Aizen's zanpakutou, then why would he not tell anyone and allow everyone in SS to be deceived for the next hundred years or so?

it could simply be that shinji didnt see how it would make a difference telling the other members of SS cuz aizen never carried out his plans until 100 years later. shinji never saw the harm that the misconception would do so he never refuted his own subordinate.

sk.nite
May 22, 2008, 09:21 AM
I thought the same thing for Mx0 when it ended, it was on chap 98 and everyone wondered how it would end in the next 2 chapters. (to get to chap 100)

But it ended quite nicely in chap 99, so i won't say its necessarily going to be a cliffhanger, but it probably will be, considering Kubo's writing style.

I know it's off topic, but since you brought it up, I'd like to do this to those who cancelled Mx0: :laser

Tsukisama
May 22, 2008, 03:52 PM
hello everyone... first post... :headbang

I enjoy reading everyone's input - its all so brilliant and intelligent

Searched through most of the posts and I haven't found one about this nagging theory of mine

my speculative theory: Aizen wanted the 12th captain position ever since the position opened. However, he's pissed off at everyone who agreed on Urahara. On top of that, Urahara sealed the fate of the 12th division by taking Mayuri on as his replacement if anything should happen to him. This pissed off Aizen to no end. (Old grudges usually run deep in epic stories like these, for example - Brolly vs Goku - they were babies - yet he harbored that hatred all his life for Goku - had to use DBZ as an example :darn)

That small trick that Shinji saw through in -108 was one of his experiments. Yes, he's also pissed off at Shinji for not recommending him to Yama about being the 12th captain.

and I agree that Isshin could be an ex-SHIBA clan member - he can in fact be the father of Kuukaku, Ganjyu and Kaien

http://http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/80/02/

Kuukaku looks like what Karin will turn into when she gets older - plus they both have tempers

I bet Masaki was the 'KUROSAKI' and Isshin took her last name

Alright, so -101, a hollow form seems to be connected to what their shikai is.

hichigo has already mentioned that he himself and Zangetsu are one and the same. in fact - he IS Zangetsu

http://http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/220/09/

Shinji's Pharaoh form even Hiyori's Rhino - these are just their shikai's ability - so if Renji ever becomes a Vizard, his would be a Baboon with a Cobra tail - but I'm sure someone has figured this out already

Firstly, welcome to MH. :hbunny

Secondly, you are not allowed to discuss spoilers outside of the spoiler discussion thread. Thus, I will edit out the spoiler information.

Thirdly, why would Aizen care so much about captain of the 12th division? Urahara was the one who, through the creation of the Shinigami Research Institute, transformed the division into a research-oriented division. I am sure Aizen probably wanted to become a captain eventually, but there has been no evidence in the manga to support Aizen being upset over Urahara's captaincy.


it could simply be that shinji didnt see how it would make a difference telling the other members of SS cuz aizen never carried out his plans until 100 years later. shinji never saw the harm that the misconception would do so he never refuted his own subordinate.

That is not a good enough reason. As a captain of Gotei 13, if Shinji knows that Aizen is deceiving everyone else, it is his duty to inform everyone. Shinji does his own thing, but he seems to at least be an honest person. Plus, it does not seem that he is all that trustful or close with Aizen; so, there would be no reason for him to keep Aizen's secret if he really knew.


I know it's off topic, but since you brought it up, I'd like to do this to those who cancelled Mx0: :laser

Yes, it is off-topic. This is also a warning. Do not perpetuate off-topic discussion. Further off-topic posts shall be summarily deleted.

sk.nite
May 22, 2008, 08:13 PM
Tsukisama: just be grateful you aren't one of the mods of Naruto's forum, otherwise you'd be deleting posts all day long :smile-big

Pd: Oh shit! 2 off-topic posts! No, please don't, NOOOOOOO!!!!! :ban

Pd2:If you didn't find this amusing, then you have no sense of humor.
(And I didn't just quote Urahara).

hayateblitz
May 23, 2008, 01:57 AM
Does anyone think that Tessai is Ichigo's dad? lol. I mean. Lose the glasses and the moustache, grow a stub and viola!

Anyways, great chapter! I'm glad this arc is finally picking up xD

purplerose_04
May 23, 2008, 02:35 AM
i hope there isn't 101 chapters left of this flashback.. i mean i enjoy it and all but that would be too long.. unless they also talk about ichi dad and what happened to him otherwise it too long... 101 chapters of how the captains and people become vizards.

hayateblitz
May 23, 2008, 04:17 AM
i hope there isn't 101 chapters left of this flashback.. i mean i enjoy it and all but that would be too long.. unless they also talk about ichi dad and what happened to him otherwise it too long... 101 chapters of how the captains and people become vizards.

Hmm. That's an interesting thought. Maybe the mangaka IS planning to have 101 more chapters, plus chapter 0, showing us the events that led to chapter 1 :P I wouldn't mind if he keeps it at this pace.