Sasuke(100%)vs Orochimaru(100%)

[Naruto4life]

Who do you guys think will win?After seeing all the battles from sasuke i really don't think he could've beat orochimaru at full power.The only reason sasuke won was because he was sick and on the break of dying.Orochimaru has a lot more techniques and chakra than sasuke has.I vote for Orochimaru.

[exdahzy]

Orochimaru ofc.

Sasuke might be strong but he's nowhere near Orochimaru when he's healthy yet. Also Orochimaru trained Sasuke and most likely knows about every single ability of his, also how he plays his cards.

[bean]

well, if it's a battle of ninjutsus, oro might have him beat...kirin might work, but it most likely won't, and other than that, what does sasuke really have? Oro is like a jinchuuriki only without the whole bijuu thing...however, if oro fell into the trap of trying to take over sasuke, sasuke has him beat.

[Raimaru]

My vote goes for Orochimaru, as long as he is during one of his sane periods.

[TheChosenOne]

I pick Oro, reckoning we have manga proof that stated Sasuke won cuz of Oro being weak at the time. :)

[Naruto4life]

Even though i think orochiramu would've died he still did a good job at fighting against the 4tail kyubbi.If it was sasuke fighting the 4tails kyubbi he would've died with one slash of the kyubbi's claw.:)

[DemonDays]

Even though i think orochiramu would've died he still did a good job at fighting against the 4tail kyubbi.If it was sasuke fighting the 4tails kyubbi he would've died with one slash of the kyubbi's claw.:)

Maybe..but he knows how to control Kyuubi now with his sharingan.

But yeah, if Orochimaru had been at 100% he would have wooped Sasuke all over.

[kat_at_heart]

If it's a battle at 100% then does this mean that sasuke has the mangekyou sharingan because if it does than I vote sasuke but if not then I think he would put up a decent battle but in the end paedophile would win.

[barril]

If it's a battle at 100% then does this mean that sasuke has the mangekyou sharingan because if it does than I vote sasuke but if not then I think he would put up a decent battle but in the end paedophile would win.

We don't know yet if Sasuke does have MS or if Itachi's implanted amaterasu was a one time deal...

OT: I'd say that Oro would win

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

If it's a battle at 100% then does this mean that sasuke has the mangekyou sharingan because if it does than I vote sasuke but if not then I think he would put up a decent battle but in the end paedophile would win.

it haven't been stated that sasuke have the MS yet(even if he does he doesn't know how to really use it yet). Also i think the arguement is about when sasuke fought orochimaru not about if they fight right now.

I have to say orochimaru. i think the reason why kishi made orochimaru sick and almost dying is because he know that there was no way sasuke should have been able to defeat oro in that fight.

[ninjabot]

Sasuke. Orochimaru is terrably susceptible to Genjutsu, and the only reason Sasuke was paralyzed during their "fight" is because the blood from his white snake form paralyzes you. He doesn't have that ability otherwise. Though he has the regenerative abilities, they take alot of chakra, and he can't do it indefinately. Also, Oro doesn't have to be attempting to take over Sasuke inorder to be hit with Genjutsu.

Some assume that Sasuke's Kusanagi is fake, but I've yet to see any proof. So until then, I'm gonna assume it can block Orochimaru's Kusanagi. The one difference is that Sasuke's can be enfused with lightning chakra not only multiplying it's cutting power, but paralyzing those it touches. Then there's the speed difference and Sharingan ofcourse. If Oro attempts Edo Tensei, Sasuke can cut the coffins in two before they are opened via Chidori Sword.

Niether of the two can summone Manda, but they still have snakes. The difference being that Orochimaru can become the Yamata no Orochi...which I don't see surviving a Chidori Sword. Either. Itachi cleaved every head in one swing with a sword of chakra that stretches. Why can't Sasuke? The only difference is that Chidori Sword doesn't absorb stuff.

Yeah, Sasuke wins.

[Oblivion]

and the only reason Sasuke was paralyzed during their "fight" is because the blood from his white snake form paralyzes you

and exactly that could have killed sasuke, if oro wouldnt have gone to take control off him but rather simple bite of his head.


Though he has the regenerative abilities, they take alot of chakra, and he can't do it indefinately.

how often do you think sasuke can harm him to even make him use it.
kirin takes too much preparation, and oro doesnt use much fire jutsu's so it would take even more preparation.


If Oro attempts Edo Tensei, Sasuke can cut the coffins in two before they are opened via Chidori Sword.


seriously, dont you think oro KNOWS that sasuke has the kusangi?? he wont summon the hokage's without knowing that atleast one could be summoned.
omfg even the 3rd was only fast enough the stop 1. sasuke should also be barely able to stop 1.


The difference being that Orochimaru can become the Yamata no Orochi...which I don't see surviving a Chidori Sword. Either.

doesnt have to. in ultra snake form he can regenrate himself from every cut, and if sasuke is foolish enough to get near (HAHA HE WAS!) he'll be goner coz of the poisen.


itachi cleaved every head in one swing with a sword of chakra that stretches. Why can't Sasuke?

sasuke is no way fast enough as itachi was, he just sprinkeld some water in the air and this little motion evolved into speedass whoop cut. and another fact. THE SWORD WAS HUGEASS!^^
sasuke wont be as fast to kill the heads off. and he also doesnt have some hugeass shield to fend them off.

and hell even if he can strike through him with kusangi, it wont matter.

oro wins this. maybe not very easy, but its a sure win.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Sasuke. Orochimaru is terrably susceptible to Genjutsu, and the only reason Sasuke was paralyzed during their "fight" is because the blood from his white snake form paralyzes you. He doesn't have that ability otherwise. Though he has the regenerative abilities, they take alot of chakra, and he can't do it indefinately. Also, Oro doesn't have to be attempting to take over Sasuke inorder to be hit with Genjutsu.

Some assume that Sasuke's Kusanagi is fake, but I've yet to see any proof. So until then, I'm gonna assume it can block Orochimaru's Kusanagi. The one difference is that Sasuke's can be enfused with lightning chakra not only multiplying it's cutting power, but paralyzing those it touches. Then there's the speed difference and Sharingan ofcourse. If Oro attempts Edo Tensei, Sasuke can cut the coffins in two before they are opened via Chidori Sword.

Niether of the two can summone Manda, but they still have snakes. The difference being that Orochimaru can become the Yamata no Orochi...which I don't see surviving a Chidori Sword. Either. Itachi cleaved every head in one swing with a sword of chakra that stretches. Why can't Sasuke? The only difference is that Chidori Sword doesn't absorb stuff.

Yeah, Sasuke wins.


even in a weak and dying state orochimaru would have win in that fight against sasuke because he alreadly paralyzed sasuke and all he had to do his bite or chop sasuke head off but he didn't do this because he want sasuke body and sharingan. If orochimaru in that state almost win, orochimaru at 100% will demolish sasuke.

[Baron Hugenstein]

even though i voted for sasuke by mistake:(.....IMO orochimaru will win

1) the experience factor will go into Orochimaru's advantage.....there is plenty of ways for Orochimaru to avoid eye contact and to avoid genjutsu. plus Orochimaru must have fought in the 3rd ninja war, so he has that experience while Sasuke doesn't.

2) Orochimaru taught Sasuke most of what he knows during and after the time skip, true that Sasuke might know a few things that Orochimaru didnt teach him, but Orochimaru must know way more ninjutsu and have way more chakra

so far in Sasuke's fights(part 2) he always tries to endure what the opponent throws at him and basically, he tries to out last the enemy.......but if Orochimaru knows most of Sasuke's techniques and has more chakra capacity.....then Orochimaru will win for sure.

[ninjabot]

Okay. If Orochimaru wanted to kill Sasuke he wouldn't go into his white snake form because he has no hands to perform handseals and no way to wield his Kusanagi. This is a fight, not an attempt to steal his body. Likewise, none of the points made said anything about how Orochimaru will escape Sasuke's genjutsu.

As for harming Orochimaru, Sasuke is faster than Orochimaru. Simply chasing him down the same as Tsunade did and mangling him with his Kusanagi and variations of Chidori are enough to force him into several regenarative jutsu. Orochimaru would dodge attacks from Sasuke only as long as he could keep his eyes closed to avoid Genjutsu. One paralyzing genjutsu + Kusanagi equals Orochimaru already close to death, forcing himself to waste chakra to regenerate.

Yes, Orochimaru knows Sasuke has the Kusanagi. That's why he'll try to defend with his own Kusanagi. The swords will clash, and only the stronger will prevail. Sense Sasuke can add lightning to his Kusanagi it will give him the advantage, whether it be the ability to paralyze Orochimaru or simply cut through his own Kusanagi (if anything can cut through a Kusanagi, it should be another Kusanagi charged with Chidori).

Also, White Snake form IS NOT the same as Yamata no Orochi. His white snake form looks like this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/344/008/

And this is what Yamata no Orochi looks like:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/08-09/

They don't even look similar...but yeah, the Totsuka wasn't all that long. Itachi decapitated the heads from the Yamata as they approached him. Don't see any reason why Sasuke can't do the same. Sasuke's Chidori Sword reaches 5 meters...simply swinging it more than once should be enough.

So again, until I see Orochimaru escape a Genjutsu, or see him attempt his White Snake form against someone he doesn't want to take over, he's outmatched.

BTW, I never said anything about Kirin or MS (despite the fact Madara officially states that Sasuke's got all Itachi's MS jutsu:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/11/

So if either were allowed to be used in this fight (and it does say 100%...) then it's no question who would win.

[Young Aizen]

Eh sasuke... for the simple fact that if a 11 year old pre-mangekyou itachi could own an 100% perfectly healthy oro with jus genjutsu...then why cant sasuke?

[Black/Light]

Eh sasuke... for the simple fact that if a 11 year old pre-mangekyou itachi could own an 100% perfectly healthy oro with jus genjutsu...then why cant sasuke?

Because he aint Itachi. . .who was a genjutsu master. . .and was strong enuff to kill their deadly lil clan.

Sas openly says that he "beat" Oro simply because he was weak at the time so I will take his word for it.

[Young Aizen]

Because he aint Itachi. . .who was a genjutsu master. . .and was strong enuff to kill their deadly lil clan.

Sas openly says that he "beat" Oro simply because he was weak at the time so I will take his word for it.

Nah....i dont think he was all that at the time...plus like i said... a "pre-mangekyou"
and it wasn't likely that he was as strong he was in the present way back then either...and remember that sasuke also broke itachi Tsukuyomi which is stated as the strongest genjutsu period... I'm not saying that sasuke's stronger than itachi period, im jus saying that the present sasuke is most likely stronger than the 12 year itachi that owned oro way back when :amuse

[gfire2]

ppl!@#$

orochimaru's hydra technique is not same as the Yamata no Orochi (the byjuu is another 8 headed snake that has powers to rival the kyuubi not some junk that got pwned).

orochimaru cant summon ani more hokage souls to fite for him, remember saindaime sealed them? (all of them reside in the shinigami's stomach all 4!!!)

now.......

i believe if orochimaru faught sasuke rite after he transfered to a new body, orochimaru would win hands down, but anithing after that i think orochimaru doesnt stand a hell of a chance

but either way i reckon itachi 100% pwns both

[Forever_Melody]

Well first of all, Orochimaru back then & Orochimaru now are different. Orochimaru more likely than not modified his body/jutsus since the time he was in Akatsuki all in preparation of having the Sharingan(although that kind of failed too).

Let's not forget Orochimaru was kind of cocky when he faced Itachi, we walked up straight at him while looking into the guy's eyes....not very smart lol :p

Anyways, I won't defend Oro too much on his fight with Itachi since we have little info on it.

Sasuke vs Oro, well I'm guessing Oro has learned a thing or 2 about genjutsu since fighting Itachi(not to mention genjutsu isn't Sasuke's specialty, he's proficient at it but probably not as heavy a user as Itachi) so I'm guessing genjutsu won't be as much of a problem as it was with Itachi.

Both use snake jutsus, although I'm pretty sure Oro is more proficient at them. I mean, 1 snake Kawarimi nearly drained Sasuke while Oro used the thing like 3 times against 4tk and he only stopped because his borrowed body couldn't take it, he himself wasn't that tired. :D
Edo Tensei...well umm I'm not 100% sure of the mechanics but couldn't Oro summon anyone else except Hokages? There are probably other good shinobis out there which could help him, but anyways, nvm that lol :p.
Sasuke has the elemental jutsus advantage over Oro since the latter doesn't use elemental jutsus that much.

Another factor to remember is that Sasuke's range(excluding Kirin) is still short to mid(mid being around 10m). Oro's range isn't too clear either since his snakes could reach far & all that.

Oh and on the taijutsu side, I'm giving it to Oro but mostly because he can slither his body into multiple snake-like shapes. Remember Sasuke pre-timeskip could still see Oro with SHG, but the movement was too erratic for him to actually do much about it taijutsu-wise. Sasuke's taijutsu hasn't changed much since the timeskip IMO(Shunshin isn't taijutsu and mostly all that's changed is that he uses a sword now) so the most he would do now is just blast Oro with bigger jutsus since he could probably still see Oro move but not actually hit him with taijutsu >_<

Finally, the experience factor which Oro wins. Seems Sasuke is very good at developing strategies on the spot but in the end he wins in a similar fashion, i.e out-living his opponents. As seen in the 4tk fight, Oro is quite an enduring little bugger so he wouldn't exactly go down fast >_<

[jodi]

Orochimaru wasn't defeated by Itachi on a normal fight, he tried to take his body too
seriously, only with killing intent, Orochimaru could make even Kakashi crumble, why would he lose to a simple binding gejutsu?

he stated that he tried to take Itachi's body and then stated that the feeling of the binding gejutsu was happening again... in the Orochimaru dimension

So, Orochimaru would beat Sasuke, and I may say, almost flawless

[Forever_Melody]

Well the circumstances of the fight weren't clear. I was assuming Oro hadn't used the body snatching technique and Itachi immediately bound him when he saw him coming. We see Oro try to perform a jutsu at the end of the flashback before his hand gets cut so I was assuming that hinted that the body transfer hadn't started since he can't move during the body transfer no(at least both him & Sasuke didn't in the most recent one)?

[ZealoticBlade]

Sasuke said the only reason he won was because Orochimaru was sick/weak.

Orochimaru wins.

[Raizen]

I don't even see how this can be a debate. Sasuke is just a lucky mofo who always fights either crazed opponents or weakened ones.

Orochimaru has been known for his crazy perseverance during battle and his ability to heal and do high level combat. He is no idiot. Sasuke is just fighting on borrowed powers. He has no real way of winning. Anything he throws at oro, orochimaru will just bounce back. Take the battle w/ the 4TK, orochimaur took on a beast that was a level higher than even S-class. He managed to block a f-ing dangerous attack (However, I am not saying oro could beat the 4TK, he was getting his ass whooped, he is just luky he is not normal). if oro can block the 4TK blast, he can block something like Kirin. I like to see sasuke stand up to a 2TK let alone a 4TK. And don't say he can control the kyuby. Naruto was clearly holding back and denying the 9-tails' help which gave sasuke the opening to negate its powers. otherwise the 9-tails' chakra would overpower his.

Overall, orochimaru would manhandle sasuke and he would LIKE IT!! hahaha
Sasuke is his bitch

[ninjabot]

^I love how you made an entire post without referring to anything that could be presented as counters for Sasuke's advantages. Inorder to help you understand better I'll simplify with categories that show Orochimaru's strengths vs. Sasuke's strengths.

Taijutsu
----------
Orochimaru's Taijutsu: Orochimaru is fast and can endure alot of damage by using his regenerative abilities (that require a rediculous amount of chakra to use). He also has a Kusanagi.

Sasuke's Taijutsu: Sasuke is fast aswell but has one game-breaking advantage; the Sharingan. Orochimaru's movements were readable by Sasuke back when he was a mere Genin with 1-tomoe Sharingan. Now that he has 3-tomoe Orochimaru's movements are practically choreographed, making them seem slow compared to Sasuke's own movements. Sasuke also has plenty of shuriken that can be strengthened with Chidori aswell as a Kusanagi of his own (also strengthened with Chidori).

Now who wins in a Taijutsu fight? A no-brainer, I know.

Ninjutsu
---------
Orochimaru's Ninjutsu: More years under his belt equals more jutsu. More jutsu equals (not really) more versatility. Orochimaru hasn't shown us any jutsu that are truly destructive but rather summons and forbidden jutsu that take a rediculous amount of preperation. Likewise he taught Sasuke some of his jutsu, meaning he knows the strength and weaknesses of Sasuke's arsenal. But we can't very well just say "Oro has more jutsu so he wins" because we don't know what elements they are and we don't know if they are stronger. Kakashi has WAY more jutsu than Sasuke but we know he doesn't stand a chance against him. Likewise we haven't seen Oro use any water jutsu, which he would need to defeat any of Sasuke's fire jutsu.

Sasuke's Ninjutsu: Sasuke has a plethora of long-range jutsu (mostly fire) as opposed to Orochimaru's C-rank Daitoppa (which is wind element, meaning Sasuke beats that). Chidori Nagashi defends from every angle and Chidori Sword is yet another long-range jutsu along with Chidori Senbon. Sasuke summons snakes aswell, although he can force them to serve him, meaning he can do the same to Orochimaru's own summons thanks to his Sharingan.

Yep, seems Sasuke STILL has the advantage.

Genjutsu
----------
Orochimaru's Genjutsu: Orochimaru has shown us two Genjutsu. The one where he paralyzed Sasuke and Sakura back in Part 1, and when he attempted to take over Sasuke's body (I classify this as Genjutsu because Sasuke's anti-Genjutsu powers worked to defeat it). That's it. He has yet to show us he can escape any Genjutsu. At all.

Sasuke's Genjutsu: Now that Itachi is dead and Madara is a shell of his former self Sasuke is the single most powerful Genjutsu user in the entire series of Naruto, thanks to his Sharingan. Done.

So...yeah, Sasuke>Orochimaru. Terribly. BTW, Itachi pwned Orochimaru in one shot BEFORE he could attempt to take his body. He simply reached his hand out and he was already paralyzed. He would have transformed into his white snake form if he were attempting to steal his body so quickly.

[Black/Light]

^^^^
I dissagree with much of that.

Taijutsu wise.
Sas has not shown us one event were his Taijutsu can overwhelm Oro's creepy snake body crap. Oro can re-connect two half of his body with snakes, throw himself up to replace a limb, spit swords, make his neck super longand he can take full body stabs without a care in the world.

What reason would he have to run after Sas like some normal ninja? (And Im VERY much sure that Oro was just playing with Sas in the exams. . . .I do NOT think he was wizzing around at full speed nor "going all out" on a 12 year old boy who couldn't put the tinyest of dents on him)

Sas's Taijutsu is close range. . .we all know that. If Sas tries Taijutsu all Oro has to do is attack while Sas is wasting his time tring to shank him.


Ninjutsu wise.
Mostly all of Sas's decent Ninjutsu are just different forms of chidori with afew generic fire moves tossed in. Oro, on the other had, has even more creepy snake things to toss around (and he can do that ground melting thing. . .just to toss that out there). Oro likes to use his summons and of his snake techs he has this. .
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-294/page003.html



Would like to see Sas do something against the wall of snakes with swords that didn't look like it took much effort for Oro.Hell, I want to see what he does against Hydra. . .
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-392/page007.html


Genjutsu wise.
Oro knows he way around gen seeing as his can case it. . .and Sas has not shown to be great at Gen. One simply genjutsu (that failed. . .) doesn't make him great at jack.



And if MD is sooooo weak than why couldn't Itachi simply kill him? I mean, Itachi plained on Sas killing him (Itachi) from the beginning. . . .he could have killed him if he wanted to soo his deaf doesn't tell us jack about how Sas stacked up to him. You don't know anything about MD other than Sas's Taijutsu is a joke to him and he can and he has 100+ years of SHG gen under his belt. . .and you know. . .he gets away with being unharmed by ALL the ninjutsu we have seen use on him. (oh, and he has Space-time crap thats better than the 4th's)

And I, by fare, believe Kak to be stronger than Sas.
Show me Sas betting someone who has no interest in keeping him alive (Naruto's tie VoTE fight/ Oro/ Itachi are out) and where not sick/ dieing before his fight (Oro and Itachi are out again. . .) in a fight that he didn't abuse CS2 or Oro's powers in (Dei-crest OUT!) and maybe I will re-think my stance that Kak is the better of the 2.


In the end, to sum this up. . . .theres a good reason why Sas didn't fight Oro at 100% and why he uses Oro being sick as a reason for his (short lived) win.

[Stop]

if your talking about 100% their own pure strength I say orochimaru. 100% for me means sasuke cant have Cs thats not his power it was given to him if was to use it he he would be at like 130% or something sasuke without a Cs isn't that godly so orochimaru all the way.

[Raizen]

^I love how you made an entire post without referring to anything that could be presented as counters for Sasuke's advantages. Inorder to help you understand better I'll simplify with categories that show Orochimaru's strengths vs. Sasuke's strengths.

Taijutsu
----------
Orochimaru's Taijutsu: Orochimaru is fast and can endure alot of damage by using his regenerative abilities (that require a rediculous amount of chakra to use). He also has a Kusanagi.

Sasuke's Taijutsu: Sasuke is fast aswell but has one game-breaking advantage; the Sharingan. Orochimaru's movements were readable by Sasuke back when he was a mere Genin with 1-tomoe Sharingan. Now that he has 3-tomoe Orochimaru's movements are practically choreographed, making them seem slow compared to Sasuke's own movements. Sasuke also has plenty of shuriken that can be strengthened with Chidori aswell as a Kusanagi of his own (also strengthened with Chidori).

Now who wins in a Taijutsu fight? A no-brainer, I know.

Ninjutsu
---------
Orochimaru's Ninjutsu: More years under his belt equals more jutsu. More jutsu equals (not really) more versatility. Orochimaru hasn't shown us any jutsu that are truly destructive but rather summons and forbidden jutsu that take a rediculous amount of preperation. Likewise he taught Sasuke some of his jutsu, meaning he knows the strength and weaknesses of Sasuke's arsenal. But we can't very well just say "Oro has more jutsu so he wins" because we don't know what elements they are and we don't know if they are stronger. Kakashi has WAY more jutsu than Sasuke but we know he doesn't stand a chance against him. Likewise we haven't seen Oro use any water jutsu, which he would need to defeat any of Sasuke's fire jutsu.

Sasuke's Ninjutsu: Sasuke has a plethora of long-range jutsu (mostly fire) as opposed to Orochimaru's C-rank Daitoppa (which is wind element, meaning Sasuke beats that). Chidori Nagashi defends from every angle and Chidori Sword is yet another long-range jutsu along with Chidori Senbon. Sasuke summons snakes aswell, although he can force them to serve him, meaning he can do the same to Orochimaru's own summons thanks to his Sharingan.

Yep, seems Sasuke STILL has the advantage.

Genjutsu
----------
Orochimaru's Genjutsu: Orochimaru has shown us two Genjutsu. The one where he paralyzed Sasuke and Sakura back in Part 1, and when he attempted to take over Sasuke's body (I classify this as Genjutsu because Sasuke's anti-Genjutsu powers worked to defeat it). That's it. He has yet to show us he can escape any Genjutsu. At all.

Sasuke's Genjutsu: Now that Itachi is dead and Madara is a shell of his former self Sasuke is the single most powerful Genjutsu user in the entire series of Naruto, thanks to his Sharingan. Done.

So...yeah, Sasuke>Orochimaru. Terribly. BTW, Itachi pwned Orochimaru in one shot BEFORE he could attempt to take his body. He simply reached his hand out and he was already paralyzed. He would have transformed into his white snake form if he were attempting to steal his body so quickly.
There are so many wrong things with this that it makes ur claim completely wrong.
First off are u going to COMPLETELY disregard what sasuke said about how he only beat oro b/ oro was like a tenth of his power.

Second, no way in hell sasuke can beat kakashi and especially madara. You are just making up BS.

As for ur other points, black/light covered most of it.
Taijutsu would be horrible against someone like oro. He is like putty. No matter how much you hit it doesn't do anything.
Ninjutsu, chidori and other variants are all he has. However the variants are not as strong as a regular chidori. Oro has killer snake jutsus that would rape sasuke. He also has that shield jutsu he used against the 4TK. You are just overestimating sasuke
Genjutsu-sasuke has shown to be good at dispelling genjutsu due to his hatred!! :notrust
but has not shown high level genjutsu on his own. While I believe oro has trouble in this field it will not be something that will give sasuke an advantage

[lazyboyrod]

Orochimaru, hands down!

[Forever_Melody]

Taijutsu
----------
Orochimaru's Taijutsu: Orochimaru is fast and can endure alot of damage by using his regenerative abilities (that require a rediculous amount of chakra to use). He also has a Kusanagi.

Sasuke's Taijutsu: Sasuke is fast aswell but has one game-breaking advantage; the Sharingan. Orochimaru's movements were readable by Sasuke back when he was a mere Genin with 1-tomoe Sharingan. Now that he has 3-tomoe Orochimaru's movements are practically choreographed, making them seem slow compared to Sasuke's own movements. Sasuke also has plenty of shuriken that can be strengthened with Chidori aswell as a Kusanagi of his own (also strengthened with Chidori).

Now who wins in a Taijutsu fight? A no-brainer, I know.
Sasuke's actual TAIJUTSU hasn't really shown to me that he's that much better than pre-timeskip honestly. Shunshin is basically the only thing I saw which was drastically improved in his taijutsu. His actual taijutsu moves don't seem that much better other that now he can use a sword.

Also, Sasuke could see Oro, he commented on it, but he wasn't able to do much against him. Even Oro knew Sasuke could see him back then, therefore, I don't see how he wouldn't now and be like "OMG he can catch me now". Oro is a slithery bastard.

I also think that the swords match fine. Oro's sword probably does have chakra induced capacities since he can wield it without touching it(as well as turn it into a snake), something Sasuke wasn't able to show. I think both their swords are more or less equal shaped tool. I mean, if Sasuke's Kusanagi was already unblockable, he'd have no reason to run a Chidori through it to strengthen it, the only reason he'd need it is to stun.

So taijutsu-wise, I'm still giving it to Oro mostly.


Ninjutsu
---------
Orochimaru's Ninjutsu: More years under his belt equals more jutsu. More jutsu equals (not really) more versatility. Orochimaru hasn't shown us any jutsu that are truly destructive but rather summons and forbidden jutsu that take a rediculous amount of preperation. Likewise he taught Sasuke some of his jutsu, meaning he knows the strength and weaknesses of Sasuke's arsenal. But we can't very well just say "Oro has more jutsu so he wins" because we don't know what elements they are and we don't know if they are stronger. Kakashi has WAY more jutsu than Sasuke but we know he doesn't stand a chance against him. Likewise we haven't seen Oro use any water jutsu, which he would need to defeat any of Sasuke's fire jutsu.

Sasuke's Ninjutsu: Sasuke has a plethora of long-range jutsu (mostly fire) as opposed to Orochimaru's C-rank Daitoppa (which is wind element, meaning Sasuke beats that). Chidori Nagashi defends from every angle and Chidori Sword is yet another long-range jutsu along with Chidori Senbon. Sasuke summons snakes aswell, although he can force them to serve him, meaning he can do the same to Orochimaru's own summons thanks to his Sharingan.

Yep, seems Sasuke STILL has the advantage.
Ok first off, Sasuke's Chidori variations ARE NOT long range. Long range is 10m+ and Deidara and Sasuke clearly stated that the maximum range of his Chidori sword thing is 5m. Chidori Senbon I'll give it to you could be of a longer range but that depends on the strength Sasuke "throws" it with.

Second, that wind jutsu Oro used was anime-only so there are no manga references to prove it's standings & such.

Also, just because one uses elemental jutsus doesn't mean you need the elemental advantage to win. I'm sorry but match Sasuke's Chidori to Temari's Wind Scythe and I'd still give it to Sasuke. The jutsus need to be the same rank for such a rule to apply. Other than that, any jutsu stronger than the one thrown at you will do the trick. Oro was shown to be able to survive 4tk's ultra super duper chakra blast, which IMO is just as strong if not more than Kirin(although not as fast I know that).

Oro also excels better than Sasuke with his snake jutsus. We all know Oro IS a mass of snakes(white snake form thingy) so he doesn't need to summon snakes to act like Sasuke does, he has a bunch of them forming his body >_> Another example is the snake Kawarimi. It nearly completely drained Sasuke to use ONE and Oro used it 3-4 times during his fight with 4tk and was fine chakra-wise. Obviously Oro is superior to Sasuke in snake jutsus and we've seen how useful Sasuke and Oro can make use of snakes to defend attacks & such so I wouldn't underestimate them. For Sasuke to "control" snakes like Manda takes both the chakra to summon them PLUS the extra chakra to apply a genjutsu on them,, which is more draining too so I doubt he'd go all snake-like on Oro.

Ninjutsu-wise, I'd say it's hard to judge because both have different specialties. Sasuke excels more at elemental jutsus while Oro prefers his slithery kinds of odd kinjutsus.


Genjutsu
----------
Orochimaru's Genjutsu: Orochimaru has shown us two Genjutsu. The one where he paralyzed Sasuke and Sakura back in Part 1, and when he attempted to take over Sasuke's body (I classify this as Genjutsu because Sasuke's anti-Genjutsu powers worked to defeat it). That's it. He has yet to show us he can escape any Genjutsu. At all.

Sasuke's Genjutsu: Now that Itachi is dead and Madara is a shell of his former self Sasuke is the single most powerful Genjutsu user in the entire series of Naruto, thanks to his Sharingan. Done.

So...yeah, Sasuke>Orochimaru. Terribly. BTW, Itachi pwned Orochimaru in one shot BEFORE he could attempt to take his body. He simply reached his hand out and he was already paralyzed. He would have transformed into his white snake form if he were attempting to steal his body so quickly.

Agreed. Sasuke is a better genjutsu user than Oro but mostly thanks to his Sharingan. Itachi was the true master of genjutsu, being able to use it even without his eyes, while Sasuke only uses genjutsu from SHG like Kakashi does(yes Kakashi uses SHG genjutsu too).

I'd also like to point out to those saying "Itachi raped Oro with simple genjutsu" that Oro's aim was to capture Itachi's body. If you look at the scene, Oro was litterally walking up to Itachi, looking the guy in the eyes. He even said how amazed he was at Itachi's genjutsu. The guy knows of what happens when you look the SHG in the eye now, and I doubt he'd make the same mistake twice.

Overall, for me personally, we have...
Sasuke: 1
Oro: 1
1 murky point

IMO, I'd probably give it more to Oro because I think his prior experience with Itachi might help him to make Sasuke's SHG less of an advantage as you all think it would be.

Another thing to consider, Oro held his own quite well against 4tk, the biggest juggernaut in the series so far. Imagine if Sasuke didn't have SHG to suppress kyuubi, how would HE fair against 4tk? :p

[Black/Light]

^^^And I don't think he can suppress 4tails.

[ninjabot]

@Forver_Melody: Holding your own means giving as much as you get. Oro was basically a punching bag the entire fight, but I'm not selling his abilities short. Just saying that Oro's strength at enduring damage won't be enough if he's paralyzed before he can prepare his body shedding jutsu. Paralyzing Genjutsu+decapitation=Dead Orochimaru.

As for running Chidori through the Kusanagi, I meant in the sense that when his shuriken are charged with chidori, their attack power increases to the point where they cut through other shuriken. The same formula should be applied to Kusanagi's (if an electric shuriken cuts through normal shuriken, an electric Kusanagi should cut through a normal Kusanagi). If they clash, they will be in a deadlock until the Chidori comes out and then pushes through. Maybe.

As for those jutsu not being long range, they're more effective than Orochimaru's long range jutsu. Sure he could stretch snakes out as projectiles, but what happens when Orochimaru sends them or his neck out to bite Sasuke only to find a Goukakkyu coming at him at high speed? Or an electrified windmill shuriken? Or Chidori Sword? Sure Oro was holding back in part 1, but you're not implying that his speed is 2 to 3 times faster than it was back then are you? Also keep in mind that now he's got a stronger Sharingan.

Sharingan also takes care of any giant summoned snakes because they will be forced against Orochimaru with genjutsu. The smaller snakes avoided or simply charred with katon. And that 4TK blast had to have lost some of it's destructive power thanks to the 3 Rashoumon. A full on blast would've evaporated him. Kirin will do the same. The funny thing though is that if he created Rashoumon to block Kirin he'd still get hit because it hits from above, not in front.

[Stop]

As for running Chidori through the Kusanagi, I meant in the sense that when his shuriken are charged with chidori, their attack power increases to the point where they cut through other shuriken. The same formula should be applied to Kusanagi's (if an electric shuriken cuts through normal shuriken, an electric Kusanagi should cut through a normal Kusanagi). If they clash, they will be in a deadlock until the Chidori comes out and then pushes through. Maybe.

, not in front.

I think it doesn't add more power but heats it up to help cut through more.

[Forever_Melody]

@Forver_Melody: Holding your own means giving as much as you get. Oro was basically a punching bag the entire fight, but I'm not selling his abilities short. Just saying that Oro's strength at enduring damage won't be enough if he's paralyzed before he can prepare his body shedding jutsu. Paralyzing Genjutsu+decapitation=Dead Orochimaru.
Well there IS a slight difference between losing and not winning. Oro wasn't winning the 4tk fight but he wasn't losing it either. All that happened up until the point where his body flanked was that both were throwing stuff at each other and it wasn't working, but nobody was significantly "losing" the fight, they just weren't "winning" cause nothing was effectively working.

As for the rest, you seem to imply it's that simple to kill Oro, but 4tk literally sliced him in 2 and it didn't affect him. Not to mention 3tk tore off Orochimaru's arm earlier in the fight with similar results. Therefore, I don't see the difference if Sasuke does all that as well. Oro's body is different from when he fought Itachi and got his hand cut off, and his jutsus also are as well, so I don't think simple decapitation is an issue anymore.

For the genjutsu part, you seem to imply it's that simple to get Oro in a genjutsu. Sure you can use the "Itachi did it so easily" but remember that Oro was being cocky that time and was walking straight up to Itachi and looked him in the eye. Oro himself even commented on how easily he was put in a genjutsu, implying that normally, he isn't so simple to put in a genjutsu.

But what? Sasuke has the same SHG as Itachi? It should be the same no? Wrong! Oro has now faced the SHG once and now has basic knowledge of how the genjutsu applying works. Therefore, I think he'd be smart enoguh not to look Sasuke in the eyes to get caught and since Sasuke hasn't shown the ability to cast genjutsu from his fingers or such, that wouldn't be as much of an issue.


As for running Chidori through the Kusanagi, I meant in the sense that when his shuriken are charged with chidori, their attack power increases to the point where they cut through other shuriken. The same formula should be applied to Kusanagi's (if an electric shuriken cuts through normal shuriken, an electric Kusanagi should cut through a normal Kusanagi). If they clash, they will be in a deadlock until the Chidori comes out and then pushes through. Maybe.
Well granted Sasuke's weapons are stronger with Chidori in them, but how can we know what happens with Kusanagi? Sasuke's Kusanagi wasn't said anywhere to have the same properties as Oro's did i.e being unblockable, turning into a snake and blah blah. Actually, running Chidori through it is the only thing Sasuke's sword was shown to do. Therefore, I don't think we can openly judge what would happen if they both clashed. I mean, by that logic, if Sasuke could cut through Oro's Kusanagi, he should also be able to cut right through Enma in the Kongo Nyoubou form, which is the only physical thing that is supposedly able to counter Oro's sword.


As for those jutsu not being long range, they're more effective than Orochimaru's long range jutsu. Sure he could stretch snakes out as projectiles, but what happens when Orochimaru sends them or his neck out to bite Sasuke only to find a Goukakkyu coming at him at high speed? Or an electrified windmill shuriken? Or Chidori Sword? Sure Oro was holding back in part 1, but you're not implying that his speed is 2 to 3 times faster than it was back then are you? Also keep in mind that now he's got a stronger Sharingan.
I'm not saying Oro is THAT fast but I'm saying he was toying with Sasuke pre-timeskip, and Oro KNEW Sasuke could see him, yet he still had an advantage for most of the fight. Sasuke has better SHG, I know that, but that doesn't mean the death of all taijutsu. Oro's taijutsu it far more erratic and slithery than anyone else in the series therefore I think SHG won't be Sasuke's easy way out of the fight.

Now for jutsus, Oro's range is also mostly mid range, like Sasuke's. Sasuke's only long range stuff would be Katons(Kirin is still mid range since Sasuke has to be close enough to guide the lightning). And guess what? Oro took a full on Katon from Sasuke pre-timeskip and lived easy with only his over skin scorched.

Also, the preparation it takes for Sasuke to actually summon the weapons and charge them is still some small period of time and you're assuming Oro is going to charge right at him, which we know isn't Oro's style. He's like a snake and sneaks up on people.

As you yourself have said before, Oro is extremely good at taking a beating so I doubt anything thrown his way would one shot kill him except Kirin itself. He took on a full beating from Tsunade, and 4tk, both which he survived. Therefore, I think one sharpened shuriken from Sasuke won't do him in I think.


Sharingan also takes care of any giant summoned snakes because they will be forced against Orochimaru with genjutsu. The smaller snakes avoided or simply charred with katon. And that 4TK blast had to have lost some of it's destructive power thanks to the 3 Rashoumon. A full on blast would've evaporated him. Kirin will do the same. The funny thing though is that if he created Rashoumon to block Kirin he'd still get hit because it hits from above, not in front.
Well giant snake summons never did much good to Oro anyways. So far, snakes have been shown to be the summons with the least amount of intelligence aside from Manda. Putting them in a genjutsu(even Manda) IMO isn't that great of a feat since they already seem simple minded enough to not have the mental defenses to break out of it. I doubt Sasuke would go around hypnotizing Gamabunta or Enma as easily. :notrust

As for the smaller snakes, well since Oro has his body made up of them, it costs him no chakra to actually use them compared to Sasuke where he has to summon them in his sleeves or such. Therefore, if Sasuke actually uses Katon to burn them, it'll be more costly on Sasuke than Oro chakra-wise. He'd be best to cut them with his sword :p

Oh I know a full on blast from 4tk would've evaporated Oro, he knew too. He said he'd die if he took a hit of that. I mean, I don't think ANYONE could survive a full on hit of that thing, don't you agree? :amuse

Despite being controlled by SHG and Moukuton, Kyuubi's power is still up to date the most destructive thing in the series ^^ Like I said, Oro wasn't winning against 4tk but he wasn't sustaining any severe damage either. Sasuke would quite easily have lost from the first few blasts.

Actually, an interesting fact about Oro's body is that it's VERY resilient. He was actually able to TOUCH 4tk(ok more like punch him) and his hand didn't burn off while anything that even approached 4tk's chakra was burned to a crisp.

[Franckie]

Sasuke said the only reason he won was because Orochimaru was sick/weak.

Orochimaru wins.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/15/

Karin: Why were you injured against this opponent? You beat Orochimaru!
Sasuke: Oro was weakened.

In other words: Oro was weakened, therefore Sasuke wasn't injured against him. Sasuke doesn't say he wouldn't have defeated a prime Oro.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/15/

Karin: Why were you injured against this opponent? You beat Orochimaru!
Sasuke: Oro was weakened.

In other words: Oro was weakened, therefore Sasuke wasn't injured against him. Sasuke doesn't say he wouldn't have defeated a prime Oro.


That is not exactly what happened.

Karin:Weakling!! you're even the man that beat orochimaru(implying that sasuke shouldn't have a hard time defeating deidera or any opponent)

Sasuke:Orochimaru was already weak, that is all there is to it.(implying that he was only able to defeat orochimaru because orochimaru was already weak, so karin shouldn't take him defeating orochimaru at a weak state to mean he can defeat any opponent)

and like i said before even at a weak state orochimaru would have defeat sasuke if he wasn't trying to take sasuke body. He already got sasuke paralyzed and could have chop or bite his head of.

[Franckie]

That is not exactly what happened.

Karin:Weakling!! you're even the man that beat orochimaru(implying that sasuke shouldn't have a hard time defeating deidera or any opponent)

Sasuke:Orochimaru was already weak, that is all there is to it.(implying that he was only able to defeat orochimaru because orochimaru was already weak, so karin shouldn't take him defeating orochimaru at a weak state to mean he can defeat any opponent)

Itachi is "stronger" than Oro thanks to genjutsu. We see Sasuke use the same genjutsu that the "stronger" Itachi used against Oro all those years ago. Sasuke admits he won easily because Oro was already weak. He never states he couldn't defeat a prime Oro. Lastly, what Oro has shown stands no chance against what Sasuke has shown.


and like i said before even at a weak state orochimaru would have defeat sasuke if he wasn't trying to take sasuke body. He already got sasuke paralyzed and could have chop or bite his head of.

Oro stared Sasuke in the eye. If he hadn't initiated the ritual, he would have been mindfucked (again).

[Black/Light]

Itachi is "stronger" than Oro thanks to genjutsu. We see Sasuke use the same genjutsu that the "stronger" Itachi used against Oro all those years ago. Sasuke admits he won easily because Oro was already weak. He never states he couldn't defeat a prime Oro. Lastly, what Oro has shown stands no chance against what Sasuke has shown.
I have to dissagree. Itachi is a genjutsu master so it's with in reason to think that he is stronger than most because of his level in that feild.

But that doesn't really reflect on Sas seeing as he isn't a genjutsu master. Itachi stopped Oro in genjutsu before he even could try that body jumper crap were as Sas used it inside the realm which didn't do anything. Sas had to do the "Im taking over this realm with my SHG/ CS or w/e for a lil well, supressing you till Im out of chakra". That gen wasn't Oro's weakness, it's the fac that Sas, for some time, took control of that realm.




Oro stared Sasuke in the eye. If he hadn't initiated the ritual, he would have been mindfucked (again).
Apperantly he knows how to cope with SHG mindfucking seeing as even after Itachi tossed him into Genjutsu to stop all movement he was still able to attemp a hand send which forced Itachi to cut his hand off soo many years ago.

[Franckie]

I have to dissagree. Itachi is a genjutsu master so it's with in reason to think that he is stronger than most because of his level in that feild.

Yes, Itachi is a genjutsu-specialist. Oro lost a battle in which genjutsu was used against and got pwned by the same genjutsu again when he attempted to possess Sasuke.


But that doesn't really reflect on Sas seeing as he isn't a genjutsu master. Itachi stopped Oro in genjutsu before he even could try that body jumper crap were as Sas used it inside the realm which didn't do anything. Sas had to do the "Im taking over this realm with my SHG/ CS or w/e for a lil well, supressing you till Im out of chakra". That gen wasn't Oro's weakness, it's the fac that Sas, for some time, took control of that realm.

The point of the flashback is the demonstrate the power of Sasuke's eyes. Sasuke used the same binding genjutsu the "stronger" Itachi used on Oro all those years ago. Oro even got excited at seeing the genjutsu because he knew what to expect from the younger brother.


Apperantly he knows how to cope with SHG mindfucking seeing as even after Itachi tossed him into Genjutsu to stop all movement he was still able to attemp a hand send which forced Itachi to cut his hand off soo many years ago.

And Sasuke can't do something similar to Oro like what Itachi did to him all those years ago as well?

[Black/Light]

Yes, Itachi is a genjutsu-specialist. Oro lost a battle in which genjutsu was used against and got pwned by the same genjutsu again when he attempted to possess Sasuke.
How did he get "pwned" by Sas's gen?
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-10/
Last part, he moved right out of it.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/346/03/
Was no longer in it and was moving towards Sas.

Oro knew that jutsu and know how to over-ride it. Wasn't intill Sas Csed the place that anything bad happened.



The point of the flashback is the demonstrate the power of Sasuke's eyes. Sasuke used the same binding genjutsu the "stronger" Itachi used on Oro all those years ago. Oro even got excited at seeing the genjutsu because he knew what to expect from the younger brother. You would have to know the rank and how effective/ common the gen was to make that out as "Sas is good at gen" if thats your point. Maybe it's a staply SHG gen. . . w/e it is it wasn't powerful enuff to stop (fully) Oro in either case.




And Sasuke can't do something similar to Oro like what Itachi did to him all those years ago as well? Umm, no? Remember. . . Oro was a chopped up snake when he tried to take over Sas (no hands to chop off) and Sas couldn't move do to the hormons or w/e in Oro's blood at the time. Had Oro choosen to kill him that blood thing would have given him that fight.


Oro showned that the gen couldn't work on him when he just moved past it in the realm . . . and it actually seemed to be more effective with Itachi seeing as it stopped him enuff before he started trying to do hand signs.

[TheChosenOne]

Itachi is "stronger" than Oro thanks to genjutsu. We see Sasuke use the same genjutsu that the "stronger" Itachi used against Oro all those years ago. Sasuke admits he won easily because Oro was already weak. He never states he couldn't defeat a prime Oro. Lastly, what Oro has shown stands no chance against what Sasuke has shown.

Sasuke would have died had Oro went for the kill during the moments Sasuke was under the venom, Sasuke lost the fight. :)

True, Sasuke doesn't say anything about not being able to defeat Oro at his peak but he does say that his victory came at the hand of Oro being already weak. :)

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Itachi is "stronger" than Oro thanks to genjutsu. We see Sasuke use the same genjutsu that the "stronger" Itachi used against Oro all those years ago. Sasuke admits he won easily because Oro was already weak. He never states he couldn't defeat a prime Oro. Lastly, what Oro has shown stands no chance against what Sasuke has shown.



Oro stared Sasuke in the eye. If he hadn't initiated the ritual, he would have been mindfucked (again).

where have we seen sasuke use the same genjutsu itachi used against orochimaru? Guess why orochimaru stared in sasuke eyes? because he was about to do the ritual. If he wasn't going to do that there was no reason for him to stare in sasuke eye and he could have chop/bite sasuke head of. Tell me want have sasuke done that make orochimaru stand no chance against him? defeat a blind, sick, and wanting/planning to lose itachi. actually i take that back he didn't even defeat itachi, itachi still could have win in that stated if he wanted to. Defeat deidera who is in no way in the same league as orochimaru and defeat him through one of the biggest plothole no jutsu we seen in the manga and almost dying in the process. And like i said if orochimaru in the weak and sick stated he was could have kill sasuke if he wanted to, he would have demolish sasuke at a 100%.

[khar2]

why do i have a felling that this is just another thread where sasu hater gather and bash sasuke :)

[Franckie]

How did he get "pwned" by Sas's gen?
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-10/
Last part, he moved right out of it.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/346/03/
Was no longer in it and was moving towards Sas.

Oro knew that jutsu and know how to over-ride it. Wasn't intill Sas Csed the place that anything bad happened.

Sasuke kicked Oro's ass before the ritual and then kicked his ass again in the ritual's dimension.


You would have to know the rank and how effective/ common the gen was to make that out as "Sas is good at gen" if thats your point. Maybe it's a staply SHG gen. . . w/e it is it wasn't powerful enuff to stop (fully) Oro in either case.

If Sasuke used the same genjutsu that the "stronger" Itachi used on Oro all those years, what do you think that implies? I'd reckon the point of the flashback is to demonstrate Sasuke > Oro.


Umm, no? Remember. . . Oro was a chopped up snake when he tried to take over Sas (no hands to chop off) and Sas couldn't move do to the hormons or w/e in Oro's blood at the time. Had Oro choosen to kill him that blood thing would have given him that fight.

Umm, yes? When Oro lunged at Sasuke, he looked Sasuke in the eye. Initiating the ritual was what prevented Oro from getting mindraped.


Oro showned that the gen couldn't work on him when he just moved past it in the realm . . . and it actually seemed to be more effective with Itachi seeing as it stopped him enuff before he started trying to do hand signs.

Oro knew what to expect from the younger brother because of what he had experienced with the older brother a decade ago. The purpose of the genjutsu is to demonstrate Sasuke > Oro just how the flashback confirmed Itachi > Oro for the third time in a row.


Sasuke would have died had Oro went for the kill during the moments Sasuke was under the venom, Sasuke lost the fight. :)

Sasuke is the person who walked out of the room. He never lost the fight.


True, Sasuke doesn't say anything about not being able to defeat Oro at his peak but he does say that his victory came at the hand of Oro being already weak. :)

He admits to winning easily because Oro was already weak.


where have we seen sasuke use the same genjutsu itachi used against orochimaru? Guess why orochimaru stared in sasuke eyes? because he was about to do the ritual. If he wasn't going to do that there was no reason for him to stare in sasuke eye and he could have chop/bite sasuke head of. Tell me want have sasuke done that make orochimaru stand no chance against him? defeat a blind, sick, and wanting/planning to lose itachi. actually i take that back he didn't even defeat itachi, itachi still could have win in that stated if he wanted to. Defeat deidera who is in no way in the same league as orochimaru and defeat him through one of the biggest plothole no jutsu we seen in the manga and almost dying in the process. And like i said if orochimaru in the weak and sick stated he was could have kill sasuke if he wanted to, he would have demolish sasuke at a 100%.

I know you don't like Sasuke, but you're going to have to accept one of these days that Sasuke is now stronger than Oro thanks to the power of his eyes. Just how Itachi went "Oro, against these eyes, all of your jutsus are useless", Sasuke did the same as well.

Itachi, Jiraiya, Pein, etc. are all individuals who have surpassed the "greatness" of Oro. Sasuke did it too.


why do i have a felling that this is just another thread where sasu hater gather and bash sasuke :)

I lol at the notion of Oro > Sasuke. Oro is strong, but he's small-fry like Itachi when compared to the real baddies. I'll admit I'm a Sasuke-hater, but I don't deny the facts we've been presented thus far.


On a side note, I wonder how long it'll take for the general population to realize Sasuke is stronger than Oro now thanks to the power of his eyes.

[TheChosenOne]

Sasuke is the person who walked out of the room. He never lost the fight.

Sorry, I meant at that point Sasuke was at Oro's mercy, thus (could have been) his loss. :)


He admits to winning easily because Oro was already weak.

Does he state that he won "easily" ? Anyway, Sasuke admits that he won because Oro was already weak, proving his victory came because of a weakened Oro. :)

[Forever_Melody]

You'd think Sannin level shinobi would be a tad better at dispelling genjutsu when people like Sakura and Shikamaru can dispel genjutsu which affects mass areas :darn

If anything, SHG genjutsu(excluding Tsukiyomi) is more subtle/rapid but hasn't been demonstrated to be actually any stronger than regular genjutsu, actually, it IS regular genjutsu, just initiated through the eyes to fit the whole "swirly hypnotic eye" theme @_@

[Franckie]

Sorry, I meant at that point Sasuke was at Oro's mercy, thus (could have been) his loss. :)

When was Sasuke at Oro's mercy? Oro was dying even before Sasuke attacked him. Sasuke kicking his ass made it even worse, and Oro even got defeated in his own inner dimension. Also, when Oro lunged at Sasuke, eye-contact was established because while the poison numbs the target, it doesn't cause total immobility. Oro saved himself from getting mindraped by initiating the ritual.


Does he state that he won "easily" ? Anyway, Sasuke admits that he won because Oro was already weak, proving his victory came because of a weakened Oro. :)

Sasuke states "easily" here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-03/). As for what went on with Karin, it goes as the following:

Karin: Why were you injured against this opponent? You beat Orochimaru!
Sasuke: Oro was weakened.

In other words: Oro was weakened, therefore Sasuke wasn't injured against him. Sasuke doesn't say he wouldn't have defeated a prime Oro.


Like I said to KnuckleheadedNinja, I know you're not particularly fond of Sasuke, but you're going to have to accept one of these days that Sasuke is now stronger than Oro thanks to the power of his eyes. Just how Itachi went "Oro, against these eyes, all of your jutsus are useless", Sasuke did the same as well. Oro's flashback confirms Itachi > Oro and reinforces Sasuke's statement, "You are weaker than me."

Itachi, Jiraiya, Pein, etc. are all individuals who have surpassed the "greatness" of Oro. Sasuke did it too.

[TheChosenOne]

When was Sasuke at Oro's mercy? Oro was dying even before Sasuke attacked him.

When the venom started to take effect and Sasuke was paralyzed (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-04/). Oro seemed to have healed from the cuts by Sasuke's kusanagi, here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-04/) and here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-05/), where as he was in this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-03/) condition. :)


Also, when Oro lunged at Sasuke, eye-contact was established because while the poison numbs the target, it doesn't cause total immobility. Oro saved himself from getting mindraped by initiating the ritual.True, but the degree of effectiveness can be question considering his body is going numb with each passing moment. Oro would have likely won had he not initiated the ritual, which wasn't the case. :)


Sasuke states "easily" here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-03/). As for what went on with Karin, it goes as the following

Karin: Why were you injured against this opponent? You beat Orochimaru!
Sasuke: Oro was weakened.

In other words: Oro was weakened, therefore Sasuke wasn't injured against him. Sasuke doesn't say he wouldn't have defeated a prime Oro.Which happened prior to the venom and Oro healing himself. It doesn't coincide with the aforementioned statement reckoning Sasuke stated it before the battle was over. :)


Like I said to KnuckleheadedNinja, I know you're not particularly fond of Sasuke, but you're going to have to accept one of these days that Sasuke is now stronger than Oro thanks to the power of his eyes.I accept that he as of the moment likely stronger, but my argument is solely during the moments of their fight back in the hideout. :)


"You are weaker than me."Which is kinda funny considering Sasuke states the solitary reason for his victory was that oro was already weak. :)

[Black/Light]

Sasuke kicked Oro's ass before the ritual and then kicked his ass again in the ritual's dimension.
Oro let himself (his "Im like a day away from death" self) get chopped up in-oder to stop Sas with his blood and start the ritual. W/e happened in the other realm clearly didn't keep. . .and involed the CS from what I gather.




If Sasuke used the same genjutsu that the "stronger" Itachi used on Oro all those years, what do you think that implies? I'd reckon the point of the flashback is to demonstrate Sasuke > Oro.
Ummm, so. . . if someone uses a KB on, say, Gaara, that means that they are as strong a Naruto or that they are stronger than Gaara? Or. . . because Naruto knows the RSG that means he is as strong as the 4th/ Jman?

I reckon this isn't some super high level genjutsu. . (I think it's a staple SHG genjutsu).All it does is stop movement and it didn't really effect Oro (slipped right pass it in the other realm and against Itachi he was still about to move his hands).


And for the record I have not seen one thing from Sas that I think can overwhelm Oro at 100% (using the 4tails fight as referance).

Umm, yes? When Oro lunged at Sasuke, he looked Sasuke in the eye. Initiating the ritual was what prevented Oro from getting mindraped. The reason Oro looked Sas in the eyes was to make the ritual. Had he wanted to kill Sas he wouldn't have done that. . .he would have simply attacked him.

And Im refering to the fact that Oro's blood kept Sas from moving. . .Sas wouldn't have been able to do jack even if he used the genjutsu (couldn't move and the genjutsu didn't work in the other realm).




Oro knew what to expect from the younger brother because of what he had experienced with the older brother a decade ago. The purpose of the genjutsu is to demonstrate Sasuke > Oro just how the flashback confirmed Itachi > Oro for the third time in a row.
I think your pumping too much meaning into a "stop your motion" genjutsu. The meaning of the flash back was to show that Oro knew what to expect from Sas. . .because he has the SHG and the last SHG clan member he faced was Itachi. It's not like genjutsu did jack. . .Oro moved out of it.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

I know you don't like Sasuke, but you're going to have to accept one of these days that Sasuke is now stronger than Oro thanks to the power of his eyes. Just how Itachi went "Oro, against these eyes, all of your jutsus are useless", Sasuke did the same as well.

Itachi, Jiraiya, Pein, etc. are all individuals who have surpassed the "greatness" of Oro. Sasuke did it

wow. i got give you a round-ovation for this.:clap2:clap. i present you with a fact that clear show that Orochimaru at 100% would have defeat sasuke and the best you could do is call me a sasuke hater.:clap:clap. So me stating a fact that go against sasuke make me a sasuke hater? You see unlike you i can look at things without been bias. I looked at the fight between a 100% sasuke vs. 10%-30% orochimaru and i saw a fact that even been at probably no higher than 30% orochimaru still could have defeat sasuke if that is what he wanted. He already got sasuke paralyzed and he could have chop sasuke head of if he wanted to. So if a 30% orochimaru could have defeat sasuke what is stopping a 100% orochimaru from doing so? It not really rocket science.

[Franckie]

I accept that he as of the moment likely stronger, but my argument is solely during the moments of their fight back in the hideout. :)

Glad you agree.


Which is kinda funny considering Sasuke states the solitary reason for his victory was that oro was already weak. :)

Let me ask you the following question: What makes you think Sasuke couldn't defeat a healthy Oro with what he's shown?


Oro let himself (his "Im like a day away from death" self) get chopped up in-oder to stop Sas with his blood and start the ritual. W/e happened in the other realm clearly didn't keep. . .and involed the CS from what I gather.

Sasuke reflecting the ritual back on Oro is mainly because of Sasuke's willpower.


Ummm, so. . . if someone uses a KB on, say, Gaara, that means that they are as strong a Naruto or that they are stronger than Gaara? Or. . . because Naruto knows the RSG that means he is as strong as the 4th/ Jman?

I reckon this isn't some super high level genjutsu. . (I think it's a staple SHG genjutsu).All it does is stop movement and it didn't really effect Oro (slipped right pass it in the other realm and against Itachi he was still about to move his hands).

Itachi defeated Oro when he was eleven before he obtained the MS. Using Oro as a reference, we can judge the power of Sasuke's normal three-tomoe Sharingan to be on par with Itachi's normal three-tomoe Sharingan.


And for the record I have not seen one thing from Sas that I think can overwhelm Oro at 100% (using the 4tails fight as referance).

And for the record I have not seen one thing from Oro than I think can overwhelm Sasuke at 100% (using Deidara & Itachi as a reference). Like Oro, Sasuke has Kusangi, Kuchiyose, etc. at his disposal. There's also Kirin, which is unavoidable, as well as genjutsu. Sasuke just needs to force Oro to regenerate on several occasions (Oro can't regenerate forever as his flight from KN4 demonstrated) and/or snag him in the eye in order to win the fight.


The reason Oro looked Sas in the eyes was to make the ritual. Had he wanted to kill Sas he wouldn't have done that. . .he would have simply attacked him.

Oro would have died. Oro can't stay in that form for long without switching to a new body, and he can only use it once three years have at least passed between each ritual.


And Im refering to the fact that Oro's blood kept Sas from moving. . .Sas wouldn't have been able to do jack even if he used the genjutsu (couldn't move and the genjutsu didn't work in the other realm).
But Sasuke can do squat in this match-up.


I think your pumping too much meaning into a "stop your motion" genjutsu. The meaning of the flash back was to show that Oro knew what to expect from Sas. . .because he has the SHG and the last SHG clan member he faced was Itachi. It's not like genjutsu did jack. . .Oro moved out of it.
I think you still don't understand the meaning behind why I keep up bringing the point of the "stop your motion" genjutsu. The meaning of the flashback was not to demonstrate Oro's familiarity of genjutsu. It was to reinforce Itachi's hype and tell the readers that Sasuke had surpassed Oro. Please view the flashback in the context of what it was meant to illustrate.

[Oblivion]

i dont know why there is all this talk about:

1. Oro could have chopped sasuke head, instead of trying to take him over. so even a half dead oro could have killed a sasuke. it also shows just now much hidden attacks oro has.

2. Oro survived about every attack of 4tails, and also send him flying. so what attack except the kirin could do any harm to oro?? and what power does sasuke has to withstand an attack that took 4tails of his feet??

and even if oro may be harmed, ripped apart, cut right through, half body exploding, this slithery monster cant be killed. he sheds him one after the other.


(Oro can't regenerate forever as his flight from KN4 demonstrated)
actually its sasuke who cant regenerate himself over and over, but oro doesnt seem to have any problem with in during the kyubi fight.

3. if sasuke could simply freeze oro with a genjutsu, he'd have done it to the weak oro and just got over with him instead of fighting, which still have a possibility of getting killed.

i could fo on and on.

maybe now with MS and all itachi's doing, sasuke has a chance of defeating a 100 percent Oro. but just before that, this is a slaughter.


Itachi, Jiraiya, Pein, etc. are all individuals who have surpassed the "greatness" of Oro. Sasuke did it too.

you arent comparing sasuke to Itachi, J-Man and Pain are you???

itachi beat the living hell out of sasuke, j man fought defeated 3 monsters and managed to take 1 of 6 right after the fight before AND if he knew more about them he'd have ripped them apart.
and pain himself and 6 godlike monsters.

pls sasuke is on his way to be a top notch super ninja but as of now, he really has only reached 50 percent power of the sanin and the Pain/Itachi typo guys. you are disgracing Jman and Itachi.

[TheChosenOne]

Let me ask you the following question: What makes you think Sasuke couldn't defeat a healthy Oro with what he's shown?

Once again my argument is solely a healthy Sasuke against a healthy Oro during the moments in the hideout. :)

[Franckie]

2. Oro survived about every attack of 4tails, and also send him flying. so what attack except the kirin could do any harm to oro?? and what power does sasuke has to withstand an attack that took 4tails of his feet??

Kirin is unavoidable. It's going to hit the target one way or the other.


and even if oro may be harmed, ripped apart, cut right through, half body exploding, this slithery monster cant be killed. he sheds him one after the other.

We have official canon stating Oro's regen techs consume a vast amount of chakra. Oro can only regenerate so much damage as his flight from KN4 demonstrated.


3. if sasuke could simply freeze oro with a genjutsu, he'd have done it to the weak oro and just got over with him instead of fighting, which still have a possibility of getting killed.

He can do it in this fight.


you arent comparing sasuke to Itachi, J-Man and Pain are you???
Why not? They're all stronger than Oro.


itachi beat the living hell out of sasuke, j man fought defeated 3 monsters and managed to take 1 of 6 right after the fight before AND if he knew more about them he'd have ripped them apart.
and pain himself and 6 godlike monsters.

Sasuke defeated Deidara fair-and-square and as was able to give Itachi a run for his money. We saw enough of Itachi to conclude he wouldn't stand a chance against Sasuke without the MS. Deidara was confidant he could kill Oro on his own, and it's been rammed through our heads on multiple occasions that Itachi is stronger than Oro. Using Sasuke's feats in both fights gives us solid proof that he's surpassed Oro.


pls sasuke is on his way to be a top notch super ninja but as of now, he really has only reached 50 percent power of the sanin and the Pain/Itachi typo guys. you are disgracing Jman and Itachi.

Sasuke will eventually become one of the most powerful ninjas who ever lived. He hasn't surpassed Jiraiya and Itachi in power, but he has surpassed Oro in power. This thread is about Sasuke vs Oro. You can argue Oro may be able to land in a good blow, but in the end, Oro will lose to Sasuke in most fights like Itachi.


Once again my argument is solely a healthy Sasuke against a healthy Oro during the moments in the hideout. :)

Which doesn't answer my question. You've already admitted that you consider Sasuke is likely to be stronger. So, I'll ask you again: What makes you think Sasuke couldn't defeat a healthy Oro with what he's shown?

[TheChosenOne]

Which doesn't answer my question. You've already admitted that you consider Sasuke is likely to be stronger. So, I'll ask you again: What makes you think Sasuke couldn't defeat a healthy Oro with what he's shown?

Do you mean with what he showed during the hideout or what he has shown most recently (MS and things). Had Oro been healthier would have been able to use jutsu's at a greater pace instead of immediately relying on his original form. We saw that he is practically immortal when he regrouped after being chopped in half by KN4. Plus adding in the possibility of him having a special mode (via Pain's statment) adds to his arsenal. :)

[Raizen]

During oro fight w/ 4-tails he was using a weakened body and yet he was still able to do I believe 4 regeneration jutsu. In the end it was his body that gave up not his chakra. Also to say that the attack of the 4TK is on par w/ kirin is crazy. We have seen just how dangerous the 4Tk blast is. It decimated a huge ass area and destroy 3 rashomon. Kirin is no where near that power level from what we have seen. Also oro was there when sasuke used kirin, I am sure that he won't fall for it.

You guys regard sasuke as this amazing god who can beat everyone. Heck he can just chidori all 6 pain bodies at one time and akatssuki would be over :notrust
At oro death bed, all sasukes jutsu were sonsidered by oro as low class and can't hurt him. And sasuke was giving all he had while oro was a sec from dying. The thing is whatever sasuke throws at oro, he can bounce back.

As for the sword, I thought sasuke's was just an imitation sword of the kusanagi, not the real one and no where near the strength.

And as for that girl's remark, everyone percieve it differently but from what I read, she said that since you defeated oro u shouldn't have gotten injured in this fight (meaning oro was much stronger than deidara), but sasuke replied and said he only defeated him b/c he was weak, that is all

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

[QUOTE=Franckie;879168]Kirin is unavoidable. It's going to hit the target one way or the other.

Karin is unavoidable? i guess you didn't see itachi blocking it.



Why not? They're all stronger than Oro.

you really are comparing sasuke to pein, itachi and jiraiya? this is ridiculous. it almost like i'm wasting my time. You actually believe sasuke is in comparison with pein, itachi and jiraiya. wow truely amazing that someone can actually think this.


Sasuke defeated Deidara fair-and-square and as was able to give Itachi a run for his money. We saw enough of Itachi to conclude he wouldn't stand a chance against Sasuke without the MS. Deidara was confidant he could kill Oro on his own, and it's been rammed through our heads on multiple occasions that Itachi is stronger than Oro. Using Sasuke's feats in both fights gives us solid proof that he's surpassed Oro.

First of all orochimaru is stronger than Deidera. Sasuke gave itachi a run for his money? i'm really wondering if you have read the last 3 chapters. Because if you have then you would have know that not only was itachi sick/about to die, going blind and wanting/planning to lose, he still could have defeat sasuke if he wanted to. You what a solid proof? go read the fight between sasuke and orochimaru again, then you will see that at only about 30% orochimaru still would have defeat sasuke if he wanted to. That right there is a solid proof that sasuke stood no chance against a 100% orochimaru.



Sasuke will eventually become one of the most powerful ninjas who ever lived. He hasn't surpassed Jiraiya and Itachi in power, but he has surpassed Oro in power. This thread is about Sasuke vs Oro. You can argue Oro may be able to land in a good blow, but in the end, Oro will lose to Sasuke in most fights like Itachi.

May i remind you that orochimaru(100%) is practically equal in power to jiraiya and arguably stronger than jiraiya.



Which doesn't answer my question. You've already admitted that you consider Sasuke is likely to be stronger. So, I'll ask you again: What makes you think Sasuke couldn't defeat a healthy Oro with what he's shown?

why sasuke wouldn't be able to defeat a 100% orochimaru? nice question, let me think about it. Could it be because a 30% orochimaru would have kill sasuke if he wanted to. So which means sasuke stand no chance against a 100% orochimaru.

[Franckie]

Karin is unavoidable? i guess you didn't see itachi blocking it.

I didn't know Oro could use Susano-O.


you really are comparing sasuke to pein, itachi and jiraiya? this is ridiculous. it almost like i'm wasting my time. You actually believe sasuke is in comparison with pein, itachi and jiraiya. wow truely amazing that someone can actually think this.

Let me repeat myself - "Why not? They're all stronger than Oro."


First of all orochimaru is stronger than Deidera. Sasuke gave itachi a run for his money? i'm really wondering if you have read the last 3 chapters. Because if you have then you would have know that not only was itachi sick/about to die, going blind and wanting/planning to lose, he still could have defeat sasuke if he wanted to. You what a solid proof? go read the fight between sasuke and orochimaru again, then you will see that at only about 30% orochimaru still would have defeat sasuke if he wanted to. That right there is a solid proof that sasuke stood no chance against a 100% orochimaru.

Oro has no counter to C4. So yes, Deidara is strong enough to kill Oro.

Sasuke did give Itachi a run for his money. Sasuke proved himself equal to Itachi in genjutsu and forced Itachi to activate Susano-O with Kirin. Itachi is stronger than Sasuke, but that's solely thanks to the MS. Unlike Itachi, Sasuke isn't a genjutsu specialist. He's been portrayed to be more well-rounded than Itachi.


May i remind you that orochimaru(100%) is practically equal in power to jiraiya and arguably stronger than jiraiya.

Oro would have been more powerful than Jiraiya by a very slim margin twenty years ago; but, what Oro has shown stands no chance against what Jiraiya has shown.


why sasuke wouldn't be able to defeat a 100% orochimaru? nice question, let me think about it. Could it be because a 30% orochimaru would have kill sasuke if he wanted to. So which means sasuke stand no chance against a 100% orochimaru.

You're quite mistaken.

[Oblivion]

as we can see there is no need to argue coz none anyone here is going to change his opinion, even if we through arguments for the next hundred years.

so lets call it a day

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

[QUOTE=Franckie;879559]I didn't know Oro could use Susano-O.

where in my post does it say oro have susanoo. if itachi can find a way to block that make it avoidable. I'm sure orochimaru know how to block it given the fact that he know how it works.


Let me repeat myself - "Why not? They're all stronger than Oro."

yeah they are stronger than orochimaru but as we saw sasuke is not even stronger than a 30% orochimaru. so how the heck can you compare him to itachi, pein, and j-man when he is not stronger than a 30% orochimaru and itachi, pein, j-man are stronger than a 100% orochimaru. Not exactly rocket science.


Oro has no counter to C4. So yes, Deidara is strong enough to kill Oro.

How can you say orochimaru have no counter for C4 when we never saw him go against it. Guess what sasuke have no counter for C4 either until we saw him go against it. Itachi have no counter for kirin until we saw him use it. Orochimaru is in a league that Deidera can only dream of getting into.


Sasuke did give Itachi a run for his money. Sasuke proved himself equal to Itachi in genjutsu and forced Itachi to activate Susano-O with Kirin. Itachi is stronger than Sasuke, but that's solely thanks to the MS. Unlike Itachi, Sasuke isn't a genjutsu specialist. He's been portrayed to be more well-rounded than Itachi.

Let me edit that part for you: Sasuke gave a blind, sick, and wanting/planning to lose a run for his money. Also itachi would have win if he want to. Go read the last 3 chapters.



You're quite mistaken.

lol. i'm quite mistaken? can you give me a solid fact that show that i'm mistaken.

[Black/Light]

Wow. . .ya know what, Im just going to show why Oro at 100% is stronger than 100% Sas. . .

http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Naruto/345/004.jpg

To translate this into why I think Oro @ 100% owns Sas. . .

Oro @ 10%. . .one day away from dieing --------> B****es don't know about my blood's venom! Now ya lil punk ass can't move. . . .I can just stab you in the heart and be done with it but I need your SHG so that I can learn even more jutsu.


Thats what I see. . .thats as much proof as I need. Oro, bout to die, at 10% still got Sas in a "check-mate" move simply because of the creepyness that is his body.

I have not seen one thing that Sas has which could hold up to Oro's jutsu. Kirin. . .no, just no. Oro knows about this jutsu. . . .what it takes to make. The only use that jutsu has is if the person doesn't know wth Sas is doing.

[ninjabot]

^Genjutsu, simply put. That's how Sasuke will win until someone shows me a manga chapter where Orochimaru proves he can escape Sasuke-and-Itachi level Genjutsu. And let's be honest about the paralyzing blood: Orochimaru WILL NOT start the fight with his White Snake form, which is the needed form to use his paralyzing blood. His normal body doesn't have paralyzing blood. Yamata no Orochi form doesn't have paralyzing blood. His snake summons don't have paralyzing blood. Orochimaru will not paralyze Sasuke.

Sasuke only needs to look at Orochimaru and the fight is downhill from there. The fight lasts only as long as Orochimaru can continue to heal himself.

Likewise, knowing how Kirin works does not in any way, shape, or form allow you to stop it if you're not fast enough to get to Sasuke in 1/1000th of a second, or big enough to prevent 4 or 5 giant flame dragons from flying straight into the sky (assuming Sasuke uses that version of Kirin). Likewise, Orochimaru can't regenerate from mere molecules like Majin Buu. Evaporate him completely and he's done. He won't survive Kirin.

And one more thing: how does having paralyzing blood make you stronger than someone? Lucky, sure...but stronger? Is Mayuri stronger than Kenpachi because he can paralyze him? According to your logic, of course he is. You see how that logic is flawed, right?

[Stop]

[QUOTE]

Karin is unavoidable? i guess you didn't see itachi blocking it.
you really are comparing sasuke to pein, itachi and jiraiya? this is ridiculous. it almost like i'm wasting my time. You actually believe sasuke is in comparison with pein, itachi and jiraiya. wow truely amazing that someone can actually think this.
First of all orochimaru is stronger than Deidera. Sasuke gave itachi a run for his money? i'm really wondering if you have read the last 3 chapters. Because if you have then you would have know that not only was itachi sick/about to die, going blind and wanting/planning to lose, he still could have defeat sasuke if he wanted to. You what a solid proof? go read the fight between sasuke and orochimaru again, then you will see that at only about 30% orochimaru still would have defeat sasuke if he wanted to. That right there is a solid proof that sasuke stood no chance against a 100% orochimaru.
May i remind you that orochimaru(100%) is practically equal in power to jiraiya and arguably stronger than jiraiya.
why sasuke wouldn't be able to defeat a 100% orochimaru? nice question, let me think about it. Could it be because a 30% orochimaru would have kill sasuke if he wanted to. So which means sasuke stand no chance against a 100% orochimaru.
I agree with everything you say.
Yeah in a fight I think oro would pretty much hand sasuke his a$$ sasuke doesn't have the real war exp like oro has thats why oro had that poison blood because hes been through so many battles. Oro most likely has a ton of tricks up his sleeves that we didnt even see yet if oro wanted to kill sasuke instead of being greedy he would have won.

To beat karin you wear rubber :)
Orochimaru lost to his greed o;

[Baron Hugenstein]

^Genjutsu, simply put. That's how Sasuke will win until someone shows me a manga chapter where Orochimaru proves he can escape Sasuke-and-Itachi level Genjutsu. And let's be honest about the paralyzing blood: Orochimaru WILL NOT start the fight with his White Snake form, which is the needed form to use his paralyzing blood. His normal body doesn't have paralyzing blood. Yamata no Orochi form doesn't have paralyzing blood. His snake summons don't have paralyzing blood. Orochimaru will not paralyze Sasuke.

Sasuke only needs to look at Orochimaru and the fight is downhill from there. The fight lasts only as long as Orochimaru can continue to heal himself.

Likewise, knowing how Kirin works does not in any way, shape, or form allow you to stop it if you're not fast enough to get to Sasuke in 1/1000th of a second, or big enough to prevent 4 or 5 giant flame dragons from flying straight into the sky (assuming Sasuke uses that version of Kirin). Likewise, Orochimaru can't regenerate from mere molecules like Majin Buu. Evaporate him completely and he's done. He won't survive Kirin.

And one more thing: how does having paralyzing blood make you stronger than someone? Lucky, sure...but stronger? Is Mayuri stronger than Kenpachi because he can paralyze him? According to your logic, of course he is. You see how that logic is flawed, right?

You have a point, but you are forgetting a main factor in Narutoverse: experince.
By far Orochimaru has a huge amount of experince, since he fought in the third ninja war and also against Hanzou who was a force to be feared.
There are many ways to avoid eye contact, Gai's method is an example, another is to make clones.
And Sasuke isn't as proficient as Itachi in Genjutsu, since Sasuke needs eye contact while Itachi only needs a pointy finger.

as for Orochimaru's regeneration, the guy survived two sealing attempts, the first by Sandaime and the second by Sasuke. and also we have seen him sustain heavy damage yet respawn a healthier and top shape version of himself.
As the smart Zetzu said, the guy is persistent as a king cobra.....which should tell you a huge chunk of his personality(i.e he will never stop until he gets what he wants).

Second, Sasuke's main style of offense isn't Genjutsu, but Taijutsu combined with Ninjutsu.......he used genjutsu when he had to: he used it on Manda and used on Deidara to interrogate him (where he couldn't have if he used Ninjutsu and Taijutsu)......

Kirin is an attack similar to Amaterasu, it should be used when the contact is guaranteed 100%....since it takes huge amounts of chakra and takes time to prepare

Also, Orochimaru trained Sasuke for two and a half years, so he knows most of Sasuke's attack and preferred style of attack; knowing these alone is a huge advantage for Orochimaru.

[Csdabest]

@ quote in the green(still learning site features)

Kirin is unavoidble. Just as far as we seen. Susano'o is unpenetrable

I agree with your point here. Sasuke isnt on Pein, Jiraya, level of experience. But is closing fast on ability and experience. Sasuke is almost comparable to itachi and so far from what we seen. Itachi is better than Jiraiya and maybe better than Pein if he knows his "secret". Sasuke would most likely give Jiraiya and Pein a run for their money and Itachi as well.

Also the thing with Orochimaru. Sasuke was defeated by an unknown trick of Orocihamru's blood. Nothing Orochimaru actual initiatly down won him the battle. It was latent ability in his blood. If Sasuke kills Orochimaru. And just gets paralized by his blood after words. We will have a dead Orochimaru and a temp paralyzed Sasuke. you also forget that sasuke wasnt 100% either. During his fight with Itachi. He just got out of bed forcefully because he had to evade capture of Konoha. he was still injured and haven't fully recovered. Though the white snake did heal most of his injuries very quickly rather than healing normaly. Though Sasuke handicap was no way comparable to Itachi. if sasuke and Itachi both a 100% went head to head again. I still think Sasuke would give Itachi a run for his money. Just Itachi would have definetly won this time.

Sasuke at a 100% is probably close to a 100% Orochimaru. Though Sasuke can give him a run for his money most likely in an all out fight. You forget Orochimaru hasnt really shown anything Sasuke cant get around. Its just Orochimaru aura and stories about him giving him this imagine of extremely powerful. Though he is. Doesnt mean Sasuke is not powerful at all. orochimaru said That Sasuke was way more powerful than himself at that age and Orochimaru was most likely in his prime. Not so far off from fighting with Hanzou and recieving the name of Sannin.

Once Sasuke Masters MS or EMS which ever one he gets. And Masters its jutsu along with his own MS jutsu. Sasuke will definetly be above Orochimaru and Jiraiya. or atleast definetly on their level.

[Black/Light]

^Genjutsu, simply put. That's how Sasuke will win until someone shows me a manga chapter where Orochimaru proves he can escape Sasuke-and-Itachi level Genjutsu.
Itachi used a genjutsu back in the day to make Oro STOP MOVING.
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-345/page008.html

Oh wait. .. Oro's moving! Itachi is forced to cut off his hand to keep him from making a hand sign!
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-345/page009.html

Sas used the same genjutsu. . .but wait! Oro walked right past it!?! It didn't stop the weak, almost dead Oro!?!
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-345/page010.html

And genjutsu IS NOT THE END ALL BE ALL of a fight. Its not some super secret skill that owns all. . .and Sas has not shown to be anything great with genjutsu (It didn't work on Dei cause he trained for it/ Oro walked right past it when Sas tried to stop him)

And as we have seen there are ways of getting arounf SHG only genjutsu (which CAN be broken). God. . .you make it sound like Sas can just beat someone like Pain or Jman by SHG alone when we should be the ones asking when did Sas show himself to be good/ great at genjutsu.



Likewise, knowing how Kirin works does not in any way, shape, or form allow you to stop it if you're not fast enough to get to Sasuke in 1/1000th of a second, or big enough to prevent 4 or 5 giant flame dragons from flying straight into the sky (assuming Sasuke uses that version of Kirin). Likewise, Orochimaru can't regenerate from mere molecules like Majin Buu. Evaporate him completely and he's done. He won't survive Kirin.

. . .WTH are you talking about? Kirin needs Sas to shoot fire into the sky, wait for it to make thunder clouds and get a fare distance away to be used. Not only would this need your enemy to not know wth your doing (see Itachi http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-391/page006.html ) but it also needs for them to be away from Sas and not have any means of bloking.

Oro already knows how Sas's uber attack works which is a big dissadvantage on it's own. He also has these which were able to save him from a much, MUCH stronger attack . . http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-295/page008.html

In the time it takes Sas to perpare the attack Oro would already know whats up.


And one more thing: how does having paralyzing blood make you stronger than someone? Lucky, sure...but stronger? Is Mayuri stronger than Kenpachi because he can paralyze him? According to your logic, of course he is. You see how that logic is flawed, right?
One, I pointed that out as a means to show how Oro, at 10 mekey freky percent, was able to slap Sas with the "check mate" move. Luck had nothing to do with that. Oro KNOWS his blood can poison the air, Sas didn't. Oro SCREWS with his body to make crap like this. He let Sas feel like he had won just to let the venom take it's course and stop him in his tracks ------> http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-345/page004.html meaning that, yeah, the only one lucky here was Sas seeing as Oro didn't want to kill him.

Two, it's not the power that made him stronger, it was the fact that even when he was a day away from death at 10%, crippled, in his bed and PGs he was STILL able to play a check mate move on Sas.

3, my logic aint flawed, you simply twisted it/ didn't understand it.

[Raizen]

Genjutsu makes the user immobilize b/c they have to focus on the enemy w/ their genjutsu. just b/c someone is caught doesn't mean they are screwed. U guys are are putting sasuke on a pedestal. He is not close to the level of a sannin. Probably a bit behind kakashi and even kakashi is afraid of oro

@ninjabot, I can't believe u see the poison as luck or cheap. If u want to see someone lucky take a look a sasuke. If u want to see something cheap and overpowered, look at sasuke again

[lordHokage]

I voted for Orochimaru. Sasuke has a ton of jutsu but no experience. :p

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Sasuke at a 100% is probably close to a 100% Orochimaru. Though Sasuke can give him a run for his money most likely in an all out fight. You forget Orochimaru hasnt really shown anything Sasuke cant get around. Its just Orochimaru aura and stories about him giving him this imagine of extremely powerful. Though he is. Doesnt mean Sasuke is not powerful at all. orochimaru said That Sasuke was way more powerful than himself at that age and Orochimaru was most likely in his prime. Not so far off from fighting with Hanzou and recieving the name of Sannin.
.

let try this again. when orochimaru and sasuke fought how health was orochimaru? probably not higher than 30% right. ok we got that down. When orochimaru fight sasuke(100%) didn't he have sasuke paralyzed(which means sasuke can't move or do anything)? yes he did. Couldn't orochimaru have chop sasuke head of if he wanted to? yes he could have because sasuke can no longer move, but he instead decide to take over sasuke body. So tell me how in this world is sasuke going to defeat a 100% orochimaru when a 30% orochimaru could have kill sasuke if he want to? You see unlike your arguement which are basically speculations, my arguement are base on the facts collected from a fight between a 100% sasuke and a 30% orochimaru. Fact always defeat speculations. And let me make this clear i believe sasuke will at some point surpass orochimaru but he isn't there yet.

[Csdabest]

After Sasuke destroyed his real body. If he was fighting a 100% orochimaru he wont be in that body. So once Sasuke chops him up. he will not get paralyzed by the fuems,.
[hr]

During oro fight w/ 4-tails he was using a weakened body and yet he was still able to do I believe 4 regeneration jutsu. In the end it was his body that gave up not his chakra. Also to say that the attack of the 4TK is on par w/ kirin is crazy. We have seen just how dangerous the 4Tk blast is. It decimated a huge ass area and destroy 3 rashomon. Kirin is no where near that power level from what we have seen. Also oro was there when sasuke used kirin, I am sure that he won't fall for it.

You guys regard sasuke as this amazing god who can beat everyone. Heck he can just chidori all 6 pain bodies at one time and akatssuki would be over :notrust
At oro death bed, all sasukes jutsu were sonsidered by oro as low class and can't hurt him. And sasuke was giving all he had while oro was a sec from dying. The thing is whatever sasuke throws at oro, he can bounce back.

As for the sword, I thought sasuke's was just an imitation sword of the kusanagi, not the real one and no where near the strength.

And as for that girl's remark, everyone percieve it differently but from what I read, she said that since you defeated oro u shouldn't have gotten injured in this fight (meaning oro was much stronger than deidara), but sasuke replied and said he only defeated him b/c he was weak, that is all


Sasuke gave it all he had. All i remember him doing was his Lightning blade then a taijutsu counter to slice apart his body? From what we seen....thats not even close.


Also....The reason Sasuke was able to get away from C4 Guaruda is because he had sharingan and was able to see it. orochimaru has no such thing. So Oro would of died aginst Dei.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

[QUOTE=Csdabest;881331]After Sasuke destroyed his real body. If he was fighting a 100% orochimaru he wont be in that body. So once Sasuke chops him up. he will not get paralyzed by the fuems,.

once orochimaru body can't regenerate anymore he would go into his white snake form. which means sasuke still will be paralyzed.




Sasuke gave it all he had. All i remember him doing was his Lightning blade then a taijutsu counter to slice apart his body? From what we seen....thats not even close.


Also....The reason Sasuke was able to get away from C4 Guaruda is because he had sharingan and was able to see it. orochimaru has no such thing. So Oro would of died aginst Dei.

One thing you have to know is that you can't say someone have no counter for something until that person go against that thing. Guess what sasuke have no counter for C4 Guaruda until we saw him go against it. If you have seen sasuke use the kirin before he fought sasuke you will have say that itachi have no counter for kirin. But as we saw when itachi came face to face with kirin he had a counter for it. We didn't know jiraiya have hermit mode to counter pein strength until we saw him go against pein. You can't say someone have no counter for something until you see them go against it and see that they have no counter for it.

[ninjabot]

^That's a double-edged sword. You can't say Orochimaru can counter something if we haven't seen him do it. Like the Genjutsu he was hit with by Itachi. Orochimaru was rendered immobile by Itachi's Genjutsu. Sure, he started moving shortly after, but his movement was stauled, evidenced by Black/Light's manga links.

And misunderstanding FTL. Orochimaru's paralyzing blood was not an act of willpower, nor strength. It was a trap, sure. A smart one at that. But to say something like "Orochimaru is stronger than Sasuke because he can paralyze him without even touching him while on his death bed" is a misinterpretation of what actually happened. So is "Sasuke used everything he had". We saw no Katon. One chidori sword. No summons. No Kirin. No genjutsu...unless the Sharingan's ability to reverse Genjutsu is considered an actual Genjutsu.

Likewise, Sasuke HAS shown his ability with Genjutsu. Anyone who effectively counters the series' best Genjutsu specialist with Genjutsu of his own is a worthwile practitioner of Genjutsu. And you're really not looking at the manga clearly enough to make the statements you're making (or else you'd realize the mistakes before posting them). Itachi hit Oro with a Genjutsu. The squiggly lines and "Ugh!" sound that Oro makes are signs that he, a SANNIN is struggling against Itachi's genjutsu. He managed to lift his hands after an undetermined amount of time struggling, only to have a hand chopped off. That's undisputable proof that Orochimaru has difficulty against Genjutsu.

Also, with Sasuke, Orochimaru walked past nothing. What was happening is the world around Sasuke was attempting to assimilate him. Sasuke used his Sharingan to reverse the effects and cause the Genjutsu world to assimilate Orochimaru instead. To call that low level Genjutsu would not only be silly, but unprovable, since you can't show me a Genjutsu besides Tsukuyomi that's stronger than the one Oro showed right then. BTW, Sasuke overcame Tsukuyomi aswell.

And no, I'm not saying Genjutsu is the all powerful omnipotent ability that defeats any ninja easily. I'm saying Orochimaru is weak against it. The sheer amount of time sitting immoble will give Sasuke enough time to mutilate his body without wasting chakra (simply cutting him to shreds). Lather, rinse, repeat.

As for Kirin, like I said: knowing how the jutsu works does not give Orochimaru the tools n needed to survive it. Rashoumon blocks infront of him, not above. Orochimaru can't block the Gouryuuka that will be launched into the air AWAY from Orochimaru. Nor will his paralyzed body (from Genjutsu) be able to stop Sasuke from creating handseals. It's that simple. Assuming Sasuke uses the "special" Kirin charged with fire jutsu and doesn't opt to just fry him by using the handseal version alone.

Oh yeah, Sasukes Kusanagi can be considered unblockabe because:

1: Sasuke says "this Kusanagi of mine is unblockable."
2: The only time we've seen it not cut through what it was intended to cut through is when it was blocked by the Kagami shield, which counters anything, including the Kusanagi.
3:No one in the manga has called it a replica or fake.

But yeah, far be it from me beat a dead horse. Everything that needs to be said has been said. Have fun debating amongst yourselves, I'm done.

[Csdabest]

I agree with Ninjabot.

Except on one part. But its just my speculation.(I thought his Kusanagi can cut through anything because of the lightning chakra in it. Or was that just to Make Yamato body numb?)

Also Knuckleheadedninja. Where are you getting this 30% from. Your using its abit too faithfully. All we can say that orochimaru was extremely sick on his bed while in that body.

Also Orochimaru would have died aginst Dei. Orochimaru doesnt have the Sharingan to see Chakra like that. Dei move is ment to be an invisible killer. Orochimaru would have died. Sasuke was only able to counter because his Sharingan gave him the ability to see it.

[Stop]

I agree with Ninjabot.



1.Also Knuckleheadedninja. Where are you getting this 30% from. Your using its abit too faithfully. All we can say that orochimaru was extremely sick on his bed while in that body.

2.Also Orochimaru would have died aginst Dei. Orochimaru doesnt have the Sharingan to see Chakra like that. Dei move is ment to be an invisible killer. Orochimaru would have died. Sasuke was only able to counter because his Sharingan gave him the ability to see it.

1.Did you not see the urgency of the need to switch bodies? he would have died a day later if he didnt get a body I think saying oro was at 30% was pretty fair hell I thought he was at like 10 or 5% myself

Orochimaru has years of exp with war you think he hasn't faced something like this before? how could he live through the ninja wars without knowing a few tricks by what your saying anyone without sharingan would lose to dei because they cant see the bombs?

[Forever_Melody]

As for Kirin, like I said: knowing how the jutsu works does not give Orochimaru the tools n needed to survive it. Rashoumon blocks infront of him, not above. Orochimaru can't block the Gouryuuka that will be launched into the air AWAY from Orochimaru. Nor will his paralyzed body (from Genjutsu) be able to stop Sasuke from creating handseals. It's that simple. Assuming Sasuke uses the "special" Kirin charged with fire jutsu and doesn't opt to just fry him by using the handseal version alone.
Kirin needs at least a bit of time to collect. Large storm clouds don't appear in a second you know. Even by using a Katon to flare up the process, took some minutes to form. Next, Sasuke needs to manually guide the lightning down to where he wants. Kirin doesn't use his chakra remember? Therefore, he needs to insure it hits where he wants it to by guiding it with a Chidori(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/07/)). I hate how people think Kirin is sure fire while, like it's other "unavoidable" brethren jutsu Amaterasu, has an inherit flaw as well. Sasuke needs to aim it otherwise the lightning gathered might just hit whatever object is highest(as is the normal behavior of lightning).

Another point is the range. As said earlier, Sasuke needs to manually guide the lightning to the target, therefore he must be close enough to the target to guide the lightning but not too close as to be hit. Now....what if the opponent got too close to Sasuke so that if he makes the lightning goes down, he gets hit too? Kirin is powerful, but has its limits in Sasuke, the user, not the jutsu itself. Same as Amaterasu's flaw lies in Itachi's situation.

Now I'm not saying Oro has the tools to make Kirin not an issue, but we should consider that he could potentially figure it out if he knows what Kirin is.


Oh yeah, Sasukes Kusanagi can be considered unblockabe because
It's just odd that Kishi decided to duplicate an item considered legendary without explanation. Same thing that Zetsu didn't comment on it either as he did Oro's Kusanagi. Does this mean maybe there are more than one Sword of Totsuka or Yata's Mirror?


But yeah, far be it from me beat a dead horse. Everything that needs to be said has been said. Have fun debating amongst yourselves, I'm done.
Agreed. Honestly, we're just repeating ourselves and although I voted Oro at first, I'm just going to say that whoever wins, it would be an interesting fight and I don't think the winner would come out unscathed. At least IMO. :D

[Raizen]

After Sasuke destroyed his real body. If he was fighting a 100% orochimaru he wont be in that body. So once Sasuke chops him up. he will not get paralyzed by the fuems,.
[hr]



Sasuke gave it all he had. All i remember him doing was his Lightning blade then a taijutsu counter to slice apart his body? From what we seen....thats not even close.


Also....The reason Sasuke was able to get away from C4 Guaruda is because he had sharingan and was able to see it. orochimaru has no such thing. So Oro would of died aginst Dei.
There is a difference between "using all he had" and "using all he could", in the case of sasuke vs oro, he couldn't have pulled kirin out of his ass at that point. He used all the jutsus that he was able to at the moment, attacking quickly but oro still overpowered him. Sure he had other attacks he could have used, he was just unable to. So oro win no matter how you looked at it. NO WHAT IFs or it will be just a bunch of speculations

[Csdabest]

Sasuke Genjutsu rapes. Also Orochimaru didnt even overpower him. Thats like killing someone then passing out cuz you couldn't stand the smell of him releasing all of his bodily fluids.

[Forever_Melody]

It's kind of silly that Oro, a man who used genjutsu, had no defense for genjutsu, while even Naruto tried something. Sharingan genjutsu isn't really more powerful than regular genjutsu as far as we know, if he had Kai or something, he could've dispelled it but he didn't >_> That's like saying Lee can attack, but not defend against a punch(even if it's a very very hard punch, he'd still have a defense reflex).

But yeah, Sasuke.

[Csdabest]

Orochimaru used genjutsu?

[Marq]

why do i have a felling that this is just another thread where sasu hater gather and bash sasuke :)

Naw, ya think? Did you really have to point it out? If you don't like it, you can simply leave the tread. Face it, nearly half of MH hates the kid. Hell if you want to feel better, go to NF, where Naruto is ridculed all the time.

As for the 100% v.s. 100%, I'll keep it short. Orochimaru has one weakness, he HEAVILY relies on jutsus and doesn't seem balanced at all. I mean, hell does he even have taijutsu? His genjutsu was never explored upon either, but he probably isn't good at that range either. Quite frankly, even though I being biased, I never saw Orochimaru as this bad mofo that people should feared really. Not once did he actually win a fight, whatsoever. Hell the third pretty stayed toe to toe with him. Much as I disklike Sasuke myself, at 100% he could take Orochimaru on. Just having expertise in jutsu is pretty much setting yourself up to be burned against the sharingan, seeing as it can copy techniques on the fly, not to mention Sasuke's use of Shusin is unbelievable. I'm not saying Sasuke would wipe the floor or anything, but he could beat Orochimaru. Sure Orochi did paralyze Sasuke and all, however the transfer technique was reversed and thrown back at Orochimaru. Face it the kid can take on Oro.

Pein/Jirayia however?.. hmm.. not sure about that.

Csdabest, Oro actually used it twice. IT was in part one however, used against Sakura and Sasuke, and then used against Kakashi. Pretty much a parlaysis jutsu (sort of, it freezes the victim with fear) that shows their death.

[Csdabest]

AHhh i see. I remember now. Sort of like that one Samurai stare in Ruroni Kenshin where he looks in ur eyes and freezes u. I see. I beleive that genjutsu only works if fear is in the opponent because back then Kakashi was still afraid of Orochimaru and of course a young Sasuke and Sakura.

[Forever_Melody]

Well that's a personal assumption, but yes, Orochimaru's genjutsu works on fear. He used it in the forest of doom to freeze Sasuke & Sakura and also used one on Kakashi.

But genjutsu is still genjutsu. He made Sasuke & Sakura see/feel something specific i.e their death(therefore controlling their senses) so we can assume it worked like any other genjutsu.

So yeah, Oro uses genjutsu but can't defend against it >_>

[wildG]

orochimaru > sasuke (with out MS ) but if sasuke had MS he would totally annihilate orochimaru in a blink of an eye :-D

don't forget orochimaru is the best out of the 3 sennins :- ) and no don't start trying to argue about jiraya being the best out of the 3 sennins i am just said that due to the fact what the 3rd hokage said and because orochimaru seems so skilled so incredibly skileld he could even fight jiraya with out hands ^^ yeah jiraya might was under the effects of drug or w/e but still he seemed quite powerfull even with out hands :- )

[Csdabest]

orochimaru > sasuke (with out MS ) but if sasuke had MS he would totally annihilate orochimaru in a blink of an eye :-D

don't forget orochimaru is the best out of the 3 sennins :- ) and no don't start trying to argue about jiraya being the best out of the 3 sennins i am just said that due to the fact what the 3rd hokage said and because orochimaru seems so skilled so incredibly skileld he could even fight jiraya with out hands ^^ yeah jiraya might was under the effects of drug or w/e but still he seemed quite powerfull even with out hands :- )

You do realize that the 3rd Hokage said this like before series start right/.

[wildG]

You do realize that the 3rd Hokage said this like before series start right/.

The 3rd hokage said that because orochimaru had much more potential and he prooved that he is a man not to be understiminated, he even resurected dead people how much bigger proof do you need...

[Csdabest]

So your telling me feat wise from what we seen Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraya just because of what the 3rd Hokage said about Orochimaru when they all were in their teens.Yes Orochimaru is powerful but I doubt he is the absolute strongest. Jman and Oro's Total Ability are about par. Thats before Hermit Mode. What is Oro going to do aginst Song Genjutsu. Orochimaru litterally gets raped by anyone who is very talented by Genjutsu and has strong chakra.

[wildG]

So your telling me feat wise from what we seen Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraya just because of what the 3rd Hokage said about Orochimaru when they all were in their teens.Yes Orochimaru is powerful but I doubt he is the absolute strongest. Jman and Oro's Total Ability are about par. Thats before Hermit Mode. What is Oro going to do aginst Song Genjutsu. Orochimaru litterally gets raped by anyone who is very talented by Genjutsu and has strong chakra.

jiraya would get raped by tsukyomi too tsukyomi is something you can't defend your self from if it catches you... and orochimaru prooved to be very pro in all aspects, ninjutsu, taijutsu, haven't seen his genjutsu and yeah probably jiraya is around the same with orochimaru but i still believe that orochimaru keeps that even if its slight lead of sannins

[En Yang Ji]

I believe Oro would win simply because of Edo tensei. Genjutsu wouldn't matter unless Oro looked into Sasuke's eyes.

[wildG]

I believe Oro would win simply because of Edo tensei. Genjutsu wouldn't matter unless Oro looked into Sasuke's eyes.

same here ;p cept if sasuke had some ametarasu or some other MS techniques under his sleeve but i think that he might aswell copy edo tensei, so it would be risky for orochimaru to use^^ remember sasuke completelly copied rock lee's taijutsu...

[En Yang Ji]

same here ;p cept if sasuke had some ametarasu or some other MS techniques under his sleeve but i think that he might aswell copy edo tensei, so it would be risky for orochimaru to use^^ remember sasuke completelly copied rock lee's taijutsu...


I don't think Sasuke can copy Edo Tensei, it is a summoning technique after all. Anyway, if is possible Sasuke would have to have a dead body prepared to use the justu

[Csdabest]

jiraya would get raped by tsukyomi too tsukyomi is something you can't defend your self from if it catches you... and orochimaru prooved to be very pro in all aspects, ninjutsu, taijutsu, haven't seen his genjutsu and yeah probably jiraya is around the same with orochimaru but i still believe that orochimaru keeps that even if its slight lead of sannins

Orochimaru was never stated to be pro in all aspects. The only thing he has been stated to be a genius in is Ninjutsu. Though his Taijutsu skills are rather above average but not to be called a Pro in. They are just unorthodox do to His body modifications


I believe Oro would win simply because of Edo tensei. Genjutsu wouldn't matter unless Oro looked into Sasuke's eyes.

Sasuke caught Sai in a genjutsu. Aswell as Dei. So im starting to think that you dont have to make eye contact. Or atleast the victim doesnt.

[~Joshua~]

Orochimaru ofc.

Sasuke might be strong but he's nowhere near Orochimaru when he's healthy yet. Also Orochimaru trained Sasuke and most likely knows about every single ability of his, also how he plays his cards.

Orochimaru does not know everyone of Sasuke's moves because when Sasuke used chakra manipulation with Chidori Orochimaru was at a loss. Orochimaru also cannot possibly fight against Mangekyou Sharingan. Orochimaru has no counter for being caught in Tsukuyomi anyway.
[hr]

Nah....i dont think he was all that at the time...plus like i said... a "pre-mangekyou"
and it wasn't likely that he was as strong he was in the present way back then either...and remember that sasuke also broke itachi Tsukuyomi which is stated as the strongest genjutsu period... I'm not saying that sasuke's stronger than itachi period, im jus saying that the present sasuke is most likely stronger than the 12 year itachi that owned oro way back when :amuse

I completely agree with you on everything you say because Sasuke would turn orochimaru's eyes red with all the genjutsu, however Itachi had Mangekyou Sharingan whenn he fought Orochimaru. He had it since before he killed the clan because he showed Sasuke it that day when the three Military Police came to the house and they fought. He had it since he joined the Akatsuki...or did you mean something else by "pre-Mangekyou"?
[hr]

Sasuke said the only reason he won was because Orochimaru was sick/weak.

Orochimaru wins.

Itachi "supposedly" said the same thing, and Orochimaru always says that they wouldn't be in this mess if it wasn't for Itachi. Kabuto knows this as well and agreed when orochimaru said that Itachi is stronger then Sasuke.

When the Akatsuki found out Sasuke "killed" Orochimaru they didn't say "Sasuke only won because Orochimaru was weak" they just came flat out and said that he won.

[Csdabest]

@ ZealoticBlade
"Sasuke said the only reason he won was because Orochimaru was sick/weak.

Orochimaru wins."

That is not what he said. He said Orochimaru was already weak. A weak shinobi. Nothing about being sick. Sasuke said he was stronger than him now. And the reason he said that was to compare the situation. They asked him why is he so beat up when he beat Orochimaru w/o a scratch. He never says he couldn't beat Orochimaru w/o at 100%. Because face it. w/o his ressurection jutsu. What does Orochimaru have other than a sparatic fighting style?

[Suzuku]

With MS Sasuke could probably beat Oro.

[Csdabest]

I say (CS) Sasuke or (MS) Sasuke couls take on oro.

[wildG]

MS sasuke would easily take orochimaru, but orocimaru is still probably the strongest amongst sannin, no offense but thats my opinion and its based upon facts

[Eddy01741]

I personally think that Oro's style of fighting is too erratic and unorthodox. I personally view jiraiya to be the strongest of the sannin. Sure, he was too weak to stop orochimaru from leavint eh village, but that was probably a very long time ago (like, early 20s maybe? I mean, these guys are like 50+ years old, orochimaru makes masks to hide his age and tsunade uses medical jutsu to hide her age). Also, Orochimaru said that Itachi was stronger than him (and Itachi did beat him when Oro tried to take over his body), and Itachi said that even fighting with kisame, at best they would defeat jiraiya but die alongside him (but that might have been because itachi was jiraiya's spy?).

Anyhow, I think that Sasuke would win. Orochimaru passed down basically all his jutsu's to sasuke, and sasuke has powerful genjutsus and ninjutsus of his own.

[Csdabest]

I personally think that Oro's style of fighting is too erratic and unorthodox. I personally view jiraiya to be the strongest of the sannin. Sure, he was too weak to stop orochimaru from leavint eh village, but that was probably a very long time ago (like, early 20s maybe? I mean, these guys are like 50+ years old, orochimaru makes masks to hide his age and tsunade uses medical jutsu to hide her age). Also, Orochimaru said that Itachi was stronger than him (and Itachi did beat him when Oro tried to take over his body), and Itachi said that even fighting with kisame, at best they would defeat jiraiya but die alongside him (but that might have been because itachi was jiraiya's spy?).

Anyhow, I think that Sasuke would win. Orochimaru passed down basically all his jutsu's to sasuke, and sasuke has powerful genjutsus and ninjutsus of his own.


Thats A>B>C Logic. A no jutsu Orochimaru who couldn't use his hands. Stood his ground long enough toe scape after a decent scuffle. Took on Tsunade and jiraya. Also the kisame and Itachi statement was Anime only. And manga rules over anime. The statement was That Jiraya might be a match against Kisame and Itachi. Kisame even questioned why they had to retreat having faith is Itachi abilities. And from what we seen. Itachi> Jiraya. Itachi as known has had his own personal agenda from day one and most likely never even wanted to capture Narutpo. And killing Jiraya would be a huge waist and a danger to konoha.

[Raizen]

Thats A>B>C Logic. A no jutsu Orochimaru who couldn't use his hands. Stood his ground long enough toe scape after a decent scuffle. Took on Tsunade and jiraya. Also the kisame and Itachi statement was Anime only. And manga rules over anime. The statement was That Jiraya might be a match against Kisame and Itachi. Kisame even questioned why they had to retreat having faith is Itachi abilities. And from what we seen. Itachi> Jiraya. Itachi as known has had his own personal agenda from day one and most likely never even wanted to capture Narutpo. And killing Jiraya would be a huge waist and a danger to konoha.

About what itachi said, I am going to copy a post by Frankie

This is what Itachi said about Jiraiya in the manga:

Quote: Ch144, p8
Kisame:
「アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ 分かりませんよ…」
「次元が違う」
"You might be able to somehow defeat him, but me, well I don't know..."
"Our levels are too far apart"

Itachi:
「ああ…やり合えは二人共殺されるか良くて相打ちというところ」
「…たとえ人数を増やしたとしても変わらないだろう」
"Yeah... If we fought him, we might both be killed. If it goes well, we might take him with us."
"Even if the number of people were to increase, this probably wouldn't change"

Kisame
「ラーメン屋で　やっと見付けたはいいが…お守りが　あの゛伝説の三忍゛とは」
「彼が相手では゛木ノ葉のうちは一族゛も゛霧の忍刀七人衆゛の名もかすんでしまう」
"It was good we finally found them by the ramen store, but... his guardian is of those 'Legendary Three Ninja' "
"He, as an opponent, makes 'Konoha's Uchiha clan' and the 'Seven Shinobi Swordmen of the Mist' seem like nothing."

Itachi:
「ああ…しかし……」
「どんな強者にも弱点というのがあるものだ……」
"Yes... However......"
"No matter how strong a person is, he is bound to have a weakness..."
Itachi's statement regarding Jiraiya counts as hype, which means it's pretty much guaranteed to be true. Itachi hadn't expected Jiraiya to be the person guarding Naruto. Unlike the matter with Asuma, Kurenai, and Kakashi, Itachi believes he couldn't walk away from a fight with Jiraiya without sustaining a nasty wound. Itachi wouldn't have been downplaying his strength when he made that remark to Kisame because Kisame is familiar with Itachi's ability.

What Itachi and Jiraiya have demonstrated puts them above Sasori, Kakuzu, and Orochimaru. Only two people right now could possibly stand up to what Itachi and Jiraiya have shown, and that is Pein and Madara. So, Itachi's assessment of Jiraiya's strength can be taken as fact.
Frankie is one of the posters here that I wouldn't argue with. He completely translated the texxt literally and it obviously stated that
J-man >= itachi and kisame
therefore the manga backed this up.

As for the sannin fight, you are forgetting that none of them showed what they could really do.. J-man was poisoned, tsunade wasted most of her strength healing naruto, while oro had both him and a healthy kabuto. ANd how is it that itachi is stronger than J-man when even the manga has stated otherwise? Obviously you are bias towards all non-uchihas. You put all uchihas on a pedestal that they are so strong, that you dismiss all relative facts

[Csdabest]

About what itachi said, I am going to copy a post by Frankie

Frankie is one of the posters here that I wouldn't argue with. He completely translated the texxt literally and it obviously stated that
J-man >= itachi and kisame
therefore the manga backed this up.

As for the sannin fight, you are forgetting that none of them showed what they could really do.. J-man was poisoned, tsunade wasted most of her strength healing naruto, while oro had both him and a healthy kabuto. ANd how is it that itachi is stronger than J-man when even the manga has stated otherwise? Obviously you are bias towards all non-uchihas. You put all uchihas on a pedestal that they are so strong, that you dismiss all relative facts

I read another translation on onemanga.

And once again. No im not biased.

What Itachi showed at his highpoint and what Jiraya showed at his highpoint.

Itachi>>Jiraya. Jiraya's most impressive feat was when he had the Ma and Pa toad commit to genjutsu via sound. And So far thats just a different application of genjutsu. and 9/10 Itachi would see right through the genjutsu and maybe even reverse it with "Heaven and Earth Change".

But seeing as I was looking at a faulty translation provided by Onemanga. I can't deny that statement. but compared to what actually has happened. And what was shown by the two. Itachi>Jiraya. We can't always rely on Character prejudgement statements specially when manga feats have proved them considerably wrong.
[hr]

About what itachi said, I am going to copy a post by Frankie

Frankie is one of the posters here that I wouldn't argue with. He completely translated the texxt literally and it obviously stated that
J-man >= itachi and kisame
therefore the manga backed this up.

As for the sannin fight, you are forgetting that none of them showed what they could really do.. J-man was poisoned, tsunade wasted most of her strength healing naruto, while oro had both him and a healthy kabuto. ANd how is it that itachi is stronger than J-man when even the manga has stated otherwise? Obviously you are bias towards all non-uchihas. You put all uchihas on a pedestal that they are so strong, that you dismiss all relative facts

I read another translation on onemanga.

And once again. No im not biased.

What Itachi showed at his highpoint and what Jiraya showed at his highpoint.

Itachi>>Jiraya. Jiraya's most impressive feat was when he had the Ma and Pa toad commit to genjutsu via sound. And So far thats just a different application of genjutsu. and 9/10 Itachi would see right through the genjutsu and maybe even reverse it with "Heaven and Earth Change".

But seeing as I was looking at a faulty translation provided by Onemanga. I can't deny that statement. but compared to what actually has happened. And what was shown by the two. Itachi>Jiraya. We can't always rely on Character prejudgement statements specially when manga feats have proved them considerably wrong. Since when have character statements been facts. Or opinions been facts. There whole basis for that statement was based on hype and stories. Specially since neither of them on record has met one another in battle.

So technically speaking that statement was based on BS stories and hype. And as we all know. Non of the characters have lived up to their built up hype.

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-144/page008.html

But can you provide a scanlation. Cuz so far i have seen alot of translation not saying what was stated in that quote.

[Raizen]

^^ I don't read japanese or whatever that language is, but frankie does and he seems to be able to literally translate many things. What I have posted is the correct quote according to frankie, and he is not one to make up BS. He has done databooks and stuff too. If you don't believe what has been stated then fine, but don't say that itachi is stronger than J-man b/c his jutsus are more flashy b/c that is BS. Itachi is definitely strong, but he has shown trouble taking on J-man when he is not even in hermit mode

[Csdabest]

^^ I don't read japanese or whatever that language is, but frankie does and he seems to be able to literally translate many things. What I have posted is the correct quote according to frankie, and he is not one to make up BS. He has done databooks and stuff too. If you don't believe what has been stated then fine, but don't say that itachi is stronger than J-man b/c his jutsus are more flashy b/c that is BS. Itachi is definitely strong, but he has shown trouble taking on J-man when he is not even in hermit mode


SO...That makes Frankie translation more creditble than people has has their website post and distributed to a large communit. At the end of the day its still two humans doing translation.

Also Itachi never even fought Jiraya. wtf are you talking about. If your talking about in that hall way. He had his backed turned to Jiraya 90% of the time. And decided to teach his brother a lesson right infront of Jiraya disrespecting his presence.

Your best argument despite feats is that its flashy though the power there is considerable gap. Itachi has shown to be more proficient in Taijutsu, Genjutsu, and Ninjutsu and Kenjutsu. At Jiraya high point. Other than having Ma and Pa toad do their song genjutsu. What feats does Jiraya have that puts him above Itachi. A "Sick not even trying Blind" itachi. As you have argued yourself when arguing against Sasuke.

Itachi his entire life has been playing a deceptive role. Yet you beleive one person translation. and that turns you world upside down.

Your the type of person that someone says That their the greatest 3 years ago. And Say they are stronger than that person. Despite whats shown . Then that guy knocks the so called greatest out. Yet will still say Omg He said he was the greatest and that he is stronger. Get real.

[Eddy01741]

Honestly, I wouldn't trust a translation that calls jiraiya "The Three's Jiraiya" instead of referring to him as a sannin. Plus, that page that you cite where it doesn't say that itachi and kisame would be defeated by jiraiya doesn't make any sense either. Anyways, why would the anime use a wrong translation anyways? THat doens't make any sense.

Plus, in the post before, you already acknowledged that Franckie's translation is correct, now your flip flopping that statement to further your arguement?

Jiraiya let sasuke get beat up because it was "his fight", once sasuke was defeated Jiraiya intervened.

What the hell is kenjutsu? ANd how has Itachi been shown to have better taijutsu or ninjutsu? We havn't even seen jiraiya's taijutsu, and Itachi has only used C or B class Katon ninjutsu besides his amaterasu. Jiraiya has shown he can use rasengan, and also can use manny techinques concerning toads (summoning a specific toad for a specific battle, summoning a toad's stomach, etc.). Plus, sound genjutsu is a litttle harder to avoid than regular genjutsu.

And eh... maybe try a little better grammar on your last paragraph. I didn't understand any of it: "Your the type of person that someone says That their the greatest 3 years ago." I can't even make any sense of even the first sentence.

[Csdabest]

Honestly, I wouldn't trust a translation that calls jiraiya "The Three's Jiraiya" instead of referring to him as a sannin. Plus, that page that you cite where it doesn't say that itachi and kisame would be defeated by jiraiya doesn't make any sense either. Anyways, why would the anime use a wrong translation anyways? THat doens't make any sense.

Plus, in the post before, you already acknowledged that Franckie's translation is correct, now your flip flopping that statement to further your arguement?

Jiraiya let sasuke get beat up because it was "his fight", once sasuke was defeated Jiraiya intervened.

What the hell is kenjutsu? ANd how has Itachi been shown to have better taijutsu or ninjutsu? We havn't even seen jiraiya's taijutsu, and Itachi has only used C or B class Katon ninjutsu besides his amaterasu. Jiraiya has shown he can use rasengan, and also can use manny techinques concerning toads (summoning a specific toad for a specific battle, summoning a toad's stomach, etc.). Plus, sound genjutsu is a litttle harder to avoid than regular genjutsu.

And eh... maybe try a little better grammar on your last paragraph. I didn't understand any of it: "Your the type of person that someone says That their the greatest 3 years ago." I can't even make any sense of even the first sentence.

Um I already Acknowlege frankies cuz it doesnt sound correct and Plausible. Im bringing it up again cuz he holding those old statements. Like his life depended on it. ANd Im saying his is depending on one mans translation and denying anothers. That was the whole point.


Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, Susano'o so far trumps what Jiraya has in his Arsenal when it comes to Ninjutsu. If Jiraya has really shown his Taijutsu then it means he isnt that talented in Taijutsu or its not anything note worthy. Sharingan has been shown to controll summonings unwillfully. So Jiraya summoning can get turned on him. Itachi already showed the ability to break out of Jiraya strongest trapping frog jutsu. Sound jutsu while is high effective at catching a person. But Sharingan is known to see right through genjutsu, reverse it back on the user. So the sound jutsu would prove utterly useless against the master of genjutsu.
If Jiraya does go Summoning crazy. Itachi can just as easily summon Susano'o to seal them away and can possbly strike Jiraya down with it.

Once again. Itachi has shown to be better than Jiraya in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and Taijutsu.

[Eddy01741]

Except tsukuyomi is a genjutsu that is also a doujutsu, and susano'o... i have no idea (it's like a summoning of a sort). Plus, just because Itachi reversed a low level genjutsu from kurenai doesn't mean that he can reverse anything.

[Csdabest]

How do you know Kurenai genjutsu was low level. She is a genjutsu specialist herself. And she had a good idea who she was dealing with.

Been Speculated and basicaly concluded that Sasuke used the Uchiha Bloodline jutsu Mirror Heaven and Earth CHange to reverse Tsukiyomi back on Itachi. Itachi was the first to show this jutsu. Its a Uchiha bloodline specialty and their specialty is Genjutsu. So what makes you think he wont be able to do reverse it or break out of it. When Sharingan allows the user to resist genjutsu.

If Susano'o is a Summoning then it says That Itachi has a stronger summoning creature than Jiraya. Your last post did nothing but provide evidence in where Itachi is stronger than Jiraya in Genjutsu. Susano'o summoning.

[Shaunlim]

Saying that Susano'o or Tsukiyomi can't be block or unstoppable is just far fetched. I mean for all we know Oro or J-man might have a counter for them. A fine example would be Dei's C4. Seriously C4 would own any character in the manga so far without a SHG and lightning combination but it's only like that since we have not seen anyone else going up against it.

[Csdabest]

Its improable to think Susano'o can be block. It sword doesn't really have a physical form and if u get hit by it you get sealed away for eternity. Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu that has 72 hour effect in less than an hour. And it seems the user can stretch that time out. The only way to break out of it is Sharingan w/ Uchiha blood. And i see the reason why. It one of the uchiha bloodline jutsus.

Tsukiyomi can be avoided, just dont make eye contact.

[Shaunlim]

Well that always seems to be the case until someone actually counters it e.g. Dei's C4 again ( seriously microscopic bombs !?!?). For all we know, Jiraiya's Ultimate Rasengan can actually dmg Susano'o. Though it's hard to say now since Itachi's dead.

[Csdabest]

Susano'o is said to reflect the attack back on the user i belive might need to rered. So it will either get stopped as it said it can block any attack. So i doubt Jman ultimate rasengan can dmg it. Why...Kirin>>>>>Ultimate Rasengan. And Susnao'o took it while it wasnt even fully developed.

[Shaunlim]

Well from what i have read it is stated by Zetsu that it will block attacks (not really sure abt reflecting it though but i doubt it since sasu didn't get dmg by the explosive tags he threw). And we have not really seen what ultimate rasengan can do so comparing it to kirin is kinda unfair ( for all we know fat pein can absorb kirin as well). Also i'm not really sure abt this but i think itachi actually took some dmg from kirin (his akat cloak was no where to be seen)

[Csdabest]

Thats why I said before it was fully developed. So i think the shockwave destroy Itachi cloak. Also I beleive Ultimate Rasengan is comaprable to Naruto Big Rasengan that He used against 30% Itachi. Which i beleived he learned from Jiraya.

[Shaunlim]

Well size wise ulti rasengan > oodama rasengan

[Csdabest]

It was?.....Maybe cuz Jiraya had more experience and is stronger I guess. But i think the effect would have been the same.

[En Yang Ji]

The ultimate rasengan seems to have a lot more chakra simply because of its size. The damage the rasengan caused probably increased in proportion to it's size.

[Shaunlim]

Well the normal rasengan did this : http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/168/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/168/04/

Oodama did this : http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/260/10-11/

So Ulti rasengan's damage should be something to be reckon with

[Raizen]

Its improable to think Susano'o can be block. It sword doesn't really have a physical form and if u get hit by it you get sealed away for eternity. Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu that has 72 hour effect in less than an hour. And it seems the user can stretch that time out. The only way to break out of it is Sharingan w/ Uchiha blood. And i see the reason why. It one of the uchiha bloodline jutsus.

Tsukiyomi can be avoided, just dont make eye contact.
It was itachi who said that a sharigan and uchiha blood is needed to break tsukyomi, he also said the only way to get MS is to kill your best friend. But kakashi has totally made this void. So the power of tsukyomi is clearly overestimated and far fetched.

As for susanoo, it is basically a last effort attack. The sword is not as fast as some has lead us to believe. Oro got sealed b/c he thought no sword could harm him and thus did not care until it was too late.

And from the latest chapter, we now know that J-man has vast amounts of chakra thus his rasengan is a force to be reckoned with. You saying that Kirin is >>>>> stronger than rasengan is the biggest BS I have heard. You do not know the limits of these two attack. This is based on just speculations and who you like more

[Shaunlim]

Another thing is that we do not know whether Susano'o can block an attack without the mystical shield or how strong that defense is without the shield. After all the shield was used to block a few explosive kunais.

[Csdabest]

It was itachi who said that a sharigan and uchiha blood is needed to break tsukyomi, he also said the only way to get MS is to kill your best friend. But kakashi has totally made this void. So the power of tsukyomi is clearly overestimated and far fetched.

As for susanoo, it is basically a last effort attack. The sword is not as fast as some has lead us to believe. Oro got sealed b/c he thought no sword could harm him and thus did not care until it was too late.

And from the latest chapter, we now know that J-man has vast amounts of chakra thus his rasengan is a force to be reckoned with. You saying that Kirin is >>>>> stronger than rasengan is the biggest BS I have heard. You do not know the limits of these two attack. This is based on just speculations and who you like more

1. Explain to me how Tsukiyomi has been overestimated

2. There is also nothing indicating it was slow

3. Kirin destroyed a small mountin clearly and sent shockwaves through out the rest of the valley. FRS made a nice size crater. And we already seen was Odama Rasengan can do. And I doubt the Ultimate Rasegan can do more than FRS or Odama Rasengan. Your best bets are all on unknowns in the series.


Another thing is that we do not know whether Susano'o can block an attack without the mystical shield or how strong that defense is without the shield. After all the shield was used to block a few explosive kunais.

Well seeing as it also blocked an attack like Kirin from harming itachi. I say the shield is pretty damn strong. It did it once it wasnt even fully developed yet. And What makes you ask if it needs a shield or not.

[Shaunlim]

Well if oodama which is a bigger size rasengan causes more damage compared to a regular size rasengan it is logical that the ultimate which is at least 3 to 5 times the size of oodama would do more and it has been mention that FRS is more like a poison so i wouldn't say that it's raw power is more that the ulti rasengan.

For the shield part, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/06/ <---- can be seen that there is a shield held by susano'o

Zetsu talking about the shield ----> http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/09/

If it needs a shield just to block some explosive kunai, then i'm pretty sure that susano'o itself is not really defensive or offensive (since it uses a sword as well). It is debatable however whether Susano'o defended Itachi from Kirin or it used the shield but it was still damaged badly thus shown to us that it was regenerating or something.

[Csdabest]

Well IF Susanoo didnt defend Kirin....then Itachi is a god cuz he survived a collection of lightning bolts witht he power to destroy A small mountain and send out shockwaves throughout the valley.

[Shaunlim]

I think u misunderstood what i have said. What I meant was whether Susano'o defended Itachi from Kirin or was it the shield that Susano'o had that defended Itachi and did Susano'o actually got damaged by Kirin that it look like the skeleton figure or did it just started out as that and starts to grow.

[Csdabest]

I think u misunderstood what i have said. What I meant was whether Susano'o defended Itachi from Kirin or was it the shield that Susano'o had that defended Itachi and did Susano'o actually got damaged by Kirin that it look like the skeleton figure or did it just started out as that and starts to grow.


Ahhh that makes sense now and it brings up a interesting point. If Kirin damage it it would still show it powerful and show feats to have it regenerate. It would make sense why it started off as a skeleton

[Shaunlim]

Yup and whether it was blocked with the mystical shield or not is really debatable.

[mestizo311]

The reason why Itachi beat Orochimaru was because Orochimaru was trying to take over Itachi's body via his soul transfer technique. The whole process for this takes place somewhere in the mind. Now if Orochimaru wasn't intending on taking over his body, it might be a different story. Although I think Itachi would win, it wouldn't have been such a cake walk unless Itachi just pulled out Susanoo and then it would be over. However, Sasuke doesn't have Susanoo or is even at the level of Itachi, from what we've seen. So how can Sasuke, without Orochimaru's curse seal and other non Uchiha shit, defeat a full powered Orochimaru? It just isn't going to happen!!

[Eddy01741]

Well, Oro himself said that Itachi is stronger than him, but that might just refer to him not being able to take over itachi's body anymore. I dunno who would have won between Sasuke and Oro, Sasuke basically started the fight with a pre-emptive strike (read, sucker punch, cheap shot, etc.), and also, oro was already in bed coughing up blood again.

[The Adamant Dragon]

He said that he was weaker than Itachi, After he fought Sarutobi and his techniques was sealed inside the death God. He could barely use his hands... so its normal to assume that he was weaker than Itachi at that time.

Now back on topic.

Sasuke himself said that Orochimaru was already weak when he killed him ( after he fought Deidera and Karin said that he was weak, and she couldn't beleive that he took out Orochimaru ). Plus, I Don't know if you noticed but, When he fought Oro, he went CS2 on him even though the guy was weaker than he used to be. So I Don't beleive sasuke is strong enough to take out Oro at 100%. Saying that would mean that he can beat Jiraya... So no, I ain't being a part of that. They ( Naruto and sasuke ) have a long way to go.

[Eddy01741]

I'm pretty sure he implied that he was weaker than itachi period. While they were both in Akatsuki, Oro tried to take Itachi's body, and when he was defeated via sharingan genjutsu, he fled like a little boy, at the least he could have killed Itachi so nobody would have known, no?

[Raizen]

I really have no idea who is stronger itachi or oro, but I do know that had oro fought w/ the intent to kill and not to switch bodies, he would have given itachi a run for his money. After all he is a sannin like J-man. I agree that while itachi is strong, people seem to overestimate him to a degree saying he could beat hokages like the 3rd (who was considered the strongest and professor) or the 4th (who was considered the leaf greatest ninja).

Now on the topic, I still do not believe that sasuke can beat oro at 100%. MS or not, he is still not in the league of a sannin. He gave it all he had against a 10% oro. In the end it was oro who brought his own demise by trying to take sasuke's bosy. Oro losing was due to his incompetence, not sasuke's strength

[Franckie]

The reason why Itachi beat Orochimaru was because Orochimaru was trying to take over Itachi's body via his soul transfer technique. The whole process for this takes place somewhere in the mind. Now if Orochimaru wasn't intending on taking over his body, it might be a different story.


Well, Oro himself said that Itachi is stronger than him, but that might just refer to him not being able to take over itachi's body anymore.


He said that he was weaker than Itachi, After he fought Sarutobi and his techniques was sealed inside the death God. He could barely use his hands... so its normal to assume that he was weaker than Itachi at that time.


I really have no idea who is stronger itachi or oro, but I do know that had oro fought w/ the intent to kill and not to switch bodies, he would have given itachi a run for his money.

This is what Oro said about Itachi:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/yami_serge/Naruto/itachi7af.jpg

1: Orochimaru states "彼は私以上に強い......" or "he is stronger than me......", and we have a silhouette in the background with the Sharingan. Furthermore, DB2 poses the question as to what it is about Itachi that makes Oro admit inferiority.

2: "だから...... あの組織を抜けたのよ" or "that's why...... I left that organization". This is clearly in reference to Itachi being stronger than him and the reason he left.

Sasuke later on confirms that Oro cannot defeat Itachi.


Now on the topic, I still do not believe that sasuke can beat oro at 100%. MS or not, he is still not in the league of a sannin. He gave it all he had against a 10% oro. In the end it was oro who brought his own demise by trying to take sasuke's bosy. Oro losing was due to his incompetence, not sasuke's strength

One of the reasons I imagine the reason Kishi made Oro 'sick' during vs Sasuke is because Oro would have ran from Sasuke, simialr to how Oro has successfully escaped from Itachi, Sarutobi, Jiraiya + Tsunade, KN4, and Naruto + Sakura + Yamato (twice). Attempting to take control over Sasuke's body is what Oro did when he couldn't run.

[Black/Light]

One of the reasons I imagine the reason Kishi made Oro 'sick' during vs Sasuke is because Oro would have ran from Sasuke, simialr to how Oro has successfully escaped from Itachi, Sarutobi, Jiraiya + Tsunade, KN4, and Naruto + Sakura + Yamato (twice). Attempting to take control over Sasuke's body is what Oro did when he couldn't run.

In this case I don't think Oro would have run.

He stopped Sas with his blood . . . Sas wasn't going anywhere. He could have had Sas than and there had he not wanted to take his body.

Body taking is what got him stuck inside of Sas and it also saved Sas's life because he was in a jam where Oro had all the power to do w/e he wanted.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

One of the reasons I imagine the reason Kishi made Oro 'sick' during vs Sasuke is because Oro would have ran from Sasuke, simialr to how Oro has successfully escaped from Itachi, Sarutobi, Jiraiya + Tsunade, KN4, and Naruto + Sakura + Yamato (twice). Attempting to take control over Sasuke's body is what Oro did when he couldn't run.

The only reason Kishi make Oro sick was because there was no way in hell Sasuke could have defeat him if he was a 100%. Even a sick orochimaru could have kill Sasuke, had that been his intention. He already had Sasuke paralyzed and could have bite/chop his head off had that been his intention.

[kkck]

^good point, oro never truly intended to kill either sasuke or itachi.

[Franckie]

In this case I don't think Oro would have run.

He stopped Sas with his blood . . . Sas wasn't going anywhere. He could have had Sas than and there had he not wanted to take his body.

Body taking is what got him stuck inside of Sas and it also saved Sas's life because he was in a jam where Oro had all the power to do w/e he wanted.

When has Oro not run away? He ran from Sarutobi, Sannin, KN4, and Yamato + Sakura + Naruto (twice). He is quite talented in the art.


The only reason Kishi make Oro sick was because there was no way in hell Sasuke could have defeat him if he was a 100%. Even a sick orochimaru could have kill Sasuke, had that been his intention. He already had Sasuke paralyzed and could have bite/chop his head off had that been his intention.

Sasuke was shown to be stronger as indicated via Oro's flashback. Itachi pwned Oro with just his normal Sharingan alone and Sasuke has been shown to be quite proficient with his.

There's another reason Kishi had Sasuke fall into Oro's ritual. Not only did it prevent a prolonged fight (Oro has fought a gazillion times already, so he didn't need another major fight), i gave Sasuke the convenient power-up he needed for the upcoming fight with Itachi. You also need to take into consideration that Oro knew what to expect from the younger brother from dealing with the "stronger" Itachi a decade prior; Oro even got excited after seeing Sasuke use the same genjutsu that the elder brother used to bind Oro.

How long is it going to take before you realize that Sasuke's advanced usage of the Sharingan is what makes him "stronger" than Oro?


^good point, oro never truly intended to kill either sasuke or itachi.

Taking over the body = killing the target. Oro failed with Sasuke because of Sasuke's stronger willpower and he failed with Itachi because Itachi pwned him before he even got the chance.

[bean]

The only reason Kishi make Oro sick was because there was no way in hell Sasuke could have defeat him if he was a 100%. Even a sick orochimaru could have kill Sasuke, had that been his intention. He already had Sasuke paralyzed and could have bite/chop his head off had that been his intention.

granted sasuke could never kill him in a battle of ninjutsu and maybe taijutsu, but even if oro was in perfect health, sasuke would have ultimately come out on top...oro can't beat the sharingan, not even in his own dimension, and that's where he lost...doesn't matter if he was sick or not.

[ninjabot]

I can't believe it took this long for someone to finally say the things found in the two previous posts. Oh wait...they HAVE been said. Continuously. Just goes to show that the strength of your word on a forum is determined solely by the company you keep, and your post count. It's a sad, sad internet.

Back on topic though: Orochimaru is infact my favorite sannin...but he is a coward. He's resilient, but that doesn't equate to having a lot of destructive attacks or expertise in strategizing. It simply means he can take a beating. That's not enough to survive against Sasuke at 100%. Not against an opponent that can render you immobile just from looking at you.

And again, the paralyzing blood simply means that Orochimaru has a convenient out when \ever he's being wtfpwned by someone he's attempting to take over. It has no place in a debate about a fight to the death because it only comes from his white snake form, a form that isn't used for a fight to the death (no hands for handseals, no limbs for taijutsu). I wouldn't be surprised if he could only achieve this form when it's time to switch bodies, to be frank.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

granted sasuke could never kill him in a battle of ninjutsu and maybe taijutsu, but even if oro was in perfect health, sasuke would have ultimately come out on top...oro can't beat the sharingan, not even in his own dimension, and that's where he lost...doesn't matter if he was sick or not.

Orochimaru can't beat the sharingan? Really??
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-04/
He basically had Sasuke beaten to me right there? Like i said before, had Orochimaru intention been to kill Sasuke, he will be died right now. And that was a sick and almost dying Orochimaru too. I'm not trying to say that if Orochimaru was a 100% that he wouldn't have been overwhelm in his dimension by Sasuke but what i'm saying is that had Orochimaru intention been to kill Sasuke, he will be died right now.

[ninjabot]

No, he can't. And he didn't beat it just then. Sasuke hadn't Genjutsu'd him, therefore there was nothing for him to beat. And what point is it to state that Oro could have killed an unmoving target? If one opponent is fighting another while the other is paralyzed, ofcourse they could kill him. That doesn't make that person better than the paralyzed person in a full on, non paralyzed state.

Everyone knows Sasuke could've died at that moment, but that doesn't enhance Oro's chances in this particular fight because he can't paralyze Sasuke without that particular form. And he can't beat a Sharingan. Not one of Sasuke's level I mean.

[Csdabest]

Orochimaru can't beat the sharingan? Really??
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-04/
He basically had Sasuke beaten to me right there? Like i said before, had Orochimaru intention been to kill Sasuke, he will be died right now. And that was a sick and almost dying Orochimaru too. I'm not trying to say that if Orochimaru was a 100% that he wouldn't have been overwhelm in his dimension by Sasuke but what i'm saying is that had Orochimaru intention been to kill Sasuke, he will be died right now.



http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-05/
Sasuke was using Sharingan at the last moment showing that he overturned everything with his Sharingan. The events didnt happen directly in the dimension. Critial point of action had happen outside of it.

Other than his Ressurection jutsu. Orochimaru hasn't shown anything Sasuke can't handle. And who knows not giving it to him cuz of this but its possible since they are summonings sasuke could control them with Sharingan. But either way Orochimaru lost those jutsu.

But other than ressurecting other FORMIDABLE FIGHTER what can orochimaru really do to Sasuke,

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

No, he can't. And he didn't beat it just then. Sasuke hadn't Genjutsu'd him, therefore there was nothing for him to beat. And what point is it to state that Oro could have killed an unmoving target? If one opponent is fighting another while the other is paralyzed, ofcourse they could kill him. That doesn't make that person better than the paralyzed person in a full on, non paralyzed state.

Everyone knows Sasuke could've died at that moment, but that doesn't enhance Oro's chances in this particular fight because he can't paralyze Sasuke without that particular form. And he can't beat a Sharingan. Not one of Sasuke's level I mean.

WTF?

First of all, what the heck the did you mean on the statement i bolded? So because Sasuke hadn't Genjutsu him, oro didn't beat him? That make zero sense.

You asked: "And what point is it to state that Oro could have killed an unmoving target?"
I stated it because it was Orochimaru that immobilize him. It was Oro that put him in that state.
Also for your info, Oro can switch to that form whenever he want.
<hr noshade size="1">

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-05/
Sasuke was using Sharingan at the last moment showing that he overturned everything with his Sharingan. The events didnt happen directly in the dimension. Critial point of action had happen outside of it.
,

Overturn what?

Also Sasuke was already using his Sharingan even before that. His sharingan was only show close up to emphasize it because that what he was going to use to escape Orochimaru dimension.
But i'm done with that fight because it was clearly show that had a sick Oro intention been to kill Sasuke, he will be died right now.

To the creator of this thread: Does this thread now become Sasuke(without CS, with MS, 100%) vs. Orochimaru(100%)?
If it is then Sasuke should win in a close battle and once he learn to use his MS to the lvl of Itachi's then it a wrap.

[ninjabot]

You said that Orochimaru beat Sasuke's Sharingan in that panel you posted. I said "No, he didn't beat Sasuke's Sharingan, because his Sharingan wasn't doing anything at that exact moment". There was nothing for Orochimaru to overcome, because Sasuke did nothing. If Sasuke had used his Sharingan to trace Orochimaru's movements, but Orochimaru managed to outpace him, THAT would count as beating his Sharingan. If Sasuke had used his Sharingan to cast a Genjutsu on Orochimaru, and he broke through it with willpower or the Kai (release) jutsu, THAT would be another example of "beating" the Sharingan. Oro did neither. That was not nearly as hard to comprehend as you're implying.

[Shaunlim]

I can't believe it took this long for someone to finally say the things found in the two previous posts. Oh wait...they HAVE been said. Continuously. Just goes to show that the strength of your word on a forum is determined solely by the company you keep, and your post count. It's a sad, sad internet.

Back on topic though: Orochimaru is infact my favorite sannin...but he is a coward. He's resilient, but that doesn't equate to having a lot of destructive attacks or expertise in strategizing. It simply means he can take a beating. That's not enough to survive against Sasuke at 100%. Not against an opponent that can render you immobile just from looking at you.

And again, the paralyzing blood simply means that Orochimaru has a convenient out when \ever he's being wtfpwned by someone he's attempting to take over. It has no place in a debate about a fight to the death because it only comes from his white snake form, a form that isn't used for a fight to the death (no hands for handseals, no limbs for taijutsu). I wouldn't be surprised if he could only achieve this form when it's time to switch bodies, to be frank.
If post count affects what people think about what you say then i would be at a even worst position than you. Just because Oro didn't kill Sasuke when he was paralyzed doesn't mean that he couldn't and yes if Oro did it is still counted as defeating Sasuke. Unless you want to start saying that poison is cheap and stuff........



granted sasuke could never kill him in a battle of ninjutsu and maybe taijutsu, but even if oro was in perfect health, sasuke would have ultimately come out on top...oro can't beat the sharingan, not even in his own dimension, and that's where he lost...doesn't matter if he was sick or not.
Just because someone can't beat the Sharingan doesn't mean that they cannot beat the Sharingan-user. Zabuza vs Kakashi is the prefect example of that.



When has Oro not run away? He ran from Sarutobi, Sannin, KN4, and Yamato + Sakura + Naruto (twice). He is quite talented in the art.


Sasuke was shown to be stronger as indicated via Oro's flashback. Itachi pwned Oro with just his normal Sharingan alone and Sasuke has been shown to be quite proficient with his.

There's another reason Kishi had Sasuke fall into Oro's ritual. Not only did it prevent a prolonged fight (Oro has fought a gazillion times already, so he didn't need another major fight), i gave Sasuke the convenient power-up he needed for the upcoming fight with Itachi. You also need to take into consideration that Oro knew what to expect from the younger brother from dealing with the "stronger" Itachi a decade prior; Oro even got excited after seeing Sasuke use the same genjutsu that the elder brother used to bind Oro.

How long is it going to take before you realize that Sasuke's advanced usage of the Sharingan is what makes him "stronger" than Oro?



Taking over the body = killing the target. Oro failed with Sasuke because of Sasuke's stronger willpower and he failed with Itachi because Itachi pwned him before he even got the chance.

Like I mentioned above just because you can't beat the sharingan doesn't mean you can't win against him. He got excited because he thought that he will finally be able to take over Sasuke's body that's all. Taking over the body = killing the target, that may be true but cutting off the head when that target is not moving/poisoned = killing the target as well. And the only reason why Itachi and Sasuke pwned Oro so bad was because he was not fighting to kill them rather just steal their bodies. Not to mention Oro was bedridden during Sasuke's fight.



No, he can't. And he didn't beat it just then. Sasuke hadn't Genjutsu'd him, therefore there was nothing for him to beat. And what point is it to state that Oro could have killed an unmoving target? If one opponent is fighting another while the other is paralyzed, ofcourse they could kill him. That doesn't make that person better than the paralyzed person in a full on, non paralyzed state.

Everyone knows Sasuke could've died at that moment, but that doesn't enhance Oro's chances in this particular fight because he can't paralyze Sasuke without that particular form. And he can't beat a Sharingan. Not one of Sasuke's level I mean.
As mentioned above, just because you can't beat the Sharingan doesn't mean you are weaker compared to the one using it. But that doesn't mean he couldn't go to that particular form. Not to mention that without that form and at 100%, Oro would have been much much more faster which a lot of jutsus to use. He spent his entire life learning ninjutsu, I'm sure he would have quite a lot at his disposal.



http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-05/
Sasuke was using Sharingan at the last moment showing that he overturned everything with his Sharingan. The events didnt happen directly in the dimension. Critial point of action had happen outside of it.

Other than his Ressurection jutsu. Orochimaru hasn't shown anything Sasuke can't handle. And who knows not giving it to him cuz of this but its possible since they are summonings sasuke could control them with Sharingan. But either way Orochimaru lost those jutsu.

But other than ressurecting other FORMIDABLE FIGHTER what can orochimaru really do to Sasuke,

That technique that he used to fight against Itachi (the eight headed snake monster).

[Forever_Melody]

For the record, Zabuza did technically beat the Sharingan. He worked on the sole weakness of the Sharingan and the MS, i.e view. If Sharingan cannot see its target, it cannot cast genjutsu, predict taijutsu or copy/read ninjutsu. Sasuke himself confirmed this weakness against Deidara. As long as your hands or whatever is visible, Sharingan can read it(not matter how fast it is), the only answer is to hide from the Sharingan's view(or hide the user's sight in Zabuza's case). Haku's analysis of Sharingan was indeed correct.

Anyways, back to Oro vs Sasuke.

When you think about it, the short Sasuke vs Oro battle did not mean much IMO, because in a 100% battle, Oro will most likely not use the white snake form head on. All that shows is that yes, Oro did have Sasuke cornered for that moment, but that doesn't mean it'll happen if both are at 100% and going head on.

When you think about it, Oro's jutsus aren't really all that destructive. He throws snakes at people >.> Anyone with potent destructive jutsus can overcome snakes(unless they're the big summon kind). Unlike Jiraiya, Oro has not really shown that many jutsus involving snakes that don't actually summon snakes to bite you aside from the puking himself jutsu(ex for Jiraiya would be stuff like the Toad stomach or the toad oil). Other than snakes, he has Edo Tensei, Rashoumon and the Kusanagi.

I'm assuming Sasuke could take on most of the basic snake jutsus Oro could dish out(hidden snake hands and the like) with his long or mid range jutsus. The trouble might be the Kusanagi. It can stretch very very far, making Oro quite a formidable long range fighter if he wants.

[Csdabest]

WTF?

First of all, what the heck the did you mean on the statement i bolded? So because Sasuke hadn't Genjutsu him, oro didn't beat him? That make zero sense.

You asked: "And what point is it to state that Oro could have killed an unmoving target?"
I stated it because it was Orochimaru that immobilize him. It was Oro that put him in that state.
Also for your info, Oro can switch to that form whenever he want.
<hr noshade size="1">


Overturn what?

Also Sasuke was already using his Sharingan even before that. His sharingan was only show close up to emphasize it because that what he was going to use to escape Orochimaru dimension.
But i'm done with that fight because it was clearly show that had a sick Oro intention been to kill Sasuke, he will be died right now.

To the creator of this thread: Does this thread now become Sasuke(without CS, with MS, 100%) vs. Orochimaru(100%)?
If it is then Sasuke should win in a close battle and once he learn to use his MS to the lvl of Itachi's then it a wrap.


Sasuke had no idea what the Dimension or features of the dimension jutsu. There hasnt been anything to evensuggest he knew how it was done seeing as Orochimaru had to explain it to him. It quite evident that Sasuke was more or less about to use Sharingan Genjutsu to stop Orochimaru. And Orochimaru would most likely never go to that form. When he went all out against the 3rd why didnt he go into that form when he was backed into a corner.

From the skills Sasuke has shown he should be able to take down a 100% Orochimaru.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Sasuke had no idea what the Dimension or features of the dimension jutsu. There hasnt been anything to evensuggest he knew how it was done seeing as Orochimaru had to explain it to him. It quite evident that Sasuke was more or less about to use Sharingan Genjutsu to stop Orochimaru. And Orochimaru would most likely never go to that form. When he went all out against the 3rd why didnt he go into that form when he was backed into a corner.

From the skills Sasuke has shown he should be able to take down a 100% Orochimaru.

Can you tell me where the heck in my post i stated that Sasuke know what Oro Dimension is like?
The sharingan was emphasize because that was what Sasuke was going to use to survive the dimension. If you can't see that then i can't help you. Sasuke had the sharingan on throughtout the fight, it was only shown close up in that panel to emphsize it. What make you think he wouldn't go into that form.? It like saying Sasuke most like wouldn't use Kirin. If they have to they will.

[ninjabot]

For those of you posting examples of the Sharingan being defeated, I'd like to ask a simple question: Why?

I never stated the Sharingan was invincible, or that it has never been beaten, so naming fight after fight where it was beaten isn't the pwnage comeback you expect it to be. (Though with the Zabuza statement, Kakashi's 3 tomoe Sharingan isn't as strong as Sasuke's 3 tomoe Sharingan based on the simple fact that Kakashi isn't an Uchiha) Heck, I can name even more times where the Sharingan has been trumped (Deidara saw through Sasuke's Genjutsu. Rock Lee outpaced Sasuke's Sharingan. Naruto confused him with the Kyuubi shroud's eratic movements) I simply stated that Orochimaru could not have beaten it at that moment (and he didn't).

Likewise, for the hundredth time, we know that Orochimaru could have killed Sasuke at that moment. How does that increase his chances in a fight where the opponent isn't (and can't be) paralyzed and is actually fighting at 100%? Simple answer: it doesn't.

[Forever_Melody]

I agree with ninjabot, the Sharingan's weaknesses have been showcased within the manga enough for us to assess that it's far from invincible. The onyl reason it 'seems' invincible is because the current users are proficient enough to hide the weaknesses the Sharingan has.

Oh btw ninjabot, Zabuza's technique was the genuine anti-Sharingan technique. It hgad nothing to do with Kakashi's Sharingan being weaker than anybody else's. He has 3 tomoe and has access to all the powers which come with it. The only weakness from him not being an Uchiha the manga confirms is that using the Sharingan drains him heavily, but power/ability wise, his Sharingan is on par with Sasuke or Itachi's 3 tomoe as far as we know.

I'll give it to Oro though, he might be able to counter a few of the Sharingan's powers.

His taijutsu has been shown to be very unconventional and erratic with the use of his snake-like body and his Kawarimi puking thing. So maybe, just maybe he'd be able to counter the Sharingan's taijutsu reading(he was able to pre-timeskip even though the Sharingan could see him then so maybe he could do it again).

Not much to do against ninjutsu reading in Sasuke's case since Oro's jutsus use few hand signs(in the case of snake jutsus) and no clear element. But really, there wouldn't be much for Sasuke to read into anyways.

Genjutsu is basically Oro's main concern since it was what trumped him against Itachi and again against Sasuke.

As people seem to misbelieve, the Sharingan isn't the biggest factor IMO in this fight, but Sasuke's prowess at other things.

[ninjabot]

Yeah, you're absolutely right about the Zabuza explination. I was just throwing in yet another fact that could possibly have something to do with it. Though it was also stated (by Itachi) that only one with the blood of an Uchiha could escape Tsukuyomi, the strongest Genjutsu shown thus far. Kakashi could only endure it, not defeat it.

That lead me to believe it was because Kakashi couldn't tap into the full power of the Sharingan, though I could be wrong, since he has reached Mangekyou, the pinnacle of Sharingan power (EMS hasn't been stated to be stronger than normal MS, just that it lacks the side effect of eyesight loss)

But whatever. I think we might be done here (for the time being).

[Hemostrat]

I'm far too lazy to see if this was already posted *can't imagine why it wouldn't have been* but THIS is proof by Kishi himself that Sasuke would lose against a 100% Orochimaru

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/15/

He states the only reason he beat Oro is BECAUSE he wasn't at full strength. Not sure how you can say anything else against that.

[ninjabot]

Well, the thing about that is that Sasuke is obviously jaded by the Sannin title just like most other people in the series. Itachi states that he and Kisame would most likely die in a fight against Jiraiya, and we KNOW that is complete bull. Kakashi was scared crapless against Orochimaru, and he's basically a more experienced Sasuke (minus a bit of speed and jutsu).

This is the exact same thing. What would've made more sense would've been replacing Sasuke's caption with "I won that easily because he wasn't at full strength" or, "The fight didn't take that long to put him down because he wasn't at full strength." I'd even opt for "I wasn't injured in the slightest because Orochimaru wasn't at full strength."

All of these work.

[Hemostrat]

But after we've seen Jiraiya go *in theory* all out against Pein, its pretty easy to tell that Itachi and Kisame WOULD have died against a Hermit mode Ero-sennin. There's no way Itachi would've been able to use the Mangekyou in time if Jiraiya was serious and went straight for the kill. If Itachi tried to use Amataseru to catch Jiraiya *with his enhanced speed* there's a chance he could've gotten Naruto and killed him.
Anyways, that's a debate for another time *one that I believe I already had on this board once XD*

On topic, I want to know where you got the fact that Sasuke is "obviously jaded" by the Sannin title. There's absolutely no evidence for that what so ever. Sasuke spent two and a half years with Orochimaru, closely *probably too close for his comfort :p*. He would know more than anyone *save Kabuto probably* about how strong Orochimaru is and what he is capable of. Its no coincidence that Sasuke took his chance to kill Orochimaru when he was bed ridden.

[Shaunlim]

For those of you posting examples of the Sharingan being defeated, I'd like to ask a simple question: Why?
Simple because you said that Oro isn't able to beat the Sharingan and the point of those examples are not to show you that there are ways to defeat the sharingan but to show that it is possible to win without defeating the Sharingan. Zabuza didn't really beat the Sharingan, he just found a way around it and got to Kakashi. Beating the Sharingan is something like what Deidara did or Lee did.


I never stated the Sharingan was invincible, or that it has never been beaten, so naming fight after fight where it was beaten isn't the pwnage comeback you expect it to be. (Though with the Zabuza statement, Kakashi's 3 tomoe Sharingan isn't as strong as Sasuke's 3 tomoe Sharingan based on the simple fact that Kakashi isn't an Uchiha) Heck, I can name even more times where the Sharingan has been trumped (Deidara saw through Sasuke's Genjutsu. Rock Lee outpaced Sasuke's Sharingan. Naruto confused him with the Kyuubi shroud's eratic movements) I simply stated that Orochimaru could not have beaten it at that moment (and he didn't).
And like I have mentioned before, Just because you can't beat the Sharingan doesn't mean you are weaker/going to lose against the user.



Likewise, for the hundredth time, we know that Orochimaru could have killed Sasuke at that moment. How does that increase his chances in a fight where the opponent isn't (and can't be) paralyzed and is actually fighting at 100%? Simple answer: it doesn't.
Simple, if someone who's not at 100% can manage to weaken another person who was 100% to the point that he would die = to that guy actually have some stuff in him.....not to mention you are all assuming that he couldn't go into that form whenever he like. True that it is debatable about that but that doesn't mean that Oro can't use any poison bombs or some poison ninjutsu like the one Shizune used. Afterall Oro had lengthen his life to learn every single ninjutsu.......



Well, the thing about that is that Sasuke is obviously jaded by the Sannin title just like most other people in the series. Itachi states that he and Kisame would most likely die in a fight against Jiraiya, and we KNOW that is complete bull. Kakashi was scared crapless against Orochimaru, and he's basically a more experienced Sasuke (minus a bit of speed and jutsu).
If that was the case then Jiraiya wouldn't have gotten pwned by Pein or Zabuza would not have gotten tricked by Sasuke and Naruto. The Itachi Kisame part is bull as we DO NOT KNOW that is complete bull. Oro actually managed to kill the 3rd (yes I like the 3rd and all but if Oro had joined in the fight with the previous hokages and been more serius he would have actually stand a better chance against the 3rd so ya he might have been able to pwn the 3rd) so Kakashi's fear is understandable...


This is the exact same thing. What would've made more sense would've been replacing Sasuke's caption with "I won that easily because he wasn't at full strength" or, "The fight didn't take that long to put him down because he wasn't at full strength." I'd even opt for "I wasn't injured in the slightest because Orochimaru wasn't at full strength."
All of these work.
True it could but if the translation says that he was only able to beat Oro because he was already dying or weaken then that's the case. Unless the translation is inaccurate or wrong. So unless the raw actually meant something else, no Sasuke meant what he said.....

[Black/Light]

When has Oro not run away? He ran from Sarutobi, Sannin, KN4, and Yamato + Sakura + Naruto (twice). He is quite talented in the art.


He killed Sarutobi. Remember, the 3rd died. . .and his arms were sealed so what reason would he have to stay? (Plus, the Sound was getting beatten anyway).
Sannin, 3 way cripple fist. . . had to end some way.
4 tails, stale-mate. Neither one was going to win in their current states. Naruto was just a dazed beast and Oro's body was crapping out. . .had to end some way. (and well we are on the topic, I wonder what Sas could do against this http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-294/page003.html )

He explained why he didn't let Sas attack them. Plus, theres the good chance that Naruto would beast out again, killing Sas (his body and undercover boy toy at the time) if they were to fight.

And one fight we KNOW he didn't run away from. . . Itachi fight.

And anyway theres no reason for him to run if you want to kill someone and they are in this position. http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-345/page004.html

[ninjabot]

@Hemostrat: Then you and I have seen two different things. I won't go into detail, as it's off topic. But the point I was making is: Feats>Titles. I don't care if you're given the title Sannin if you haven't shown me that you deserve it. Now, you basically answered your own question as to "why was Sasuke jaded by Orochimaru's status". He spent 2 and a half years around him, and saw what jutsu he could do.

Combine that with the fact that he grew up in a place where Sannin were revered, and he was around during Oro's invasion of Konoha, and ofcourse he'd place Orochimaru on a pedestal. He's basically reacting to what he's seen and heard like a normal person. That's the reason he made a "kill Oro when he's weak" plan instead of "fight Oro to the death" plan. Because he thought that was the best course of action against a foe of his caliber.

He had no idea that Sharingan>Orochimaru.

@Shaunlim: It's one thing to make assumptions based on a characters personality and fighting style...but in this particular situation that doesn't hold as much weight as you'd expect. Orochimaru has not shown any paralyzing jutsu besides the Genjutsu used pre-timeskip (and that was weak enough for a Genin to escape. And ironically, it was Sasuke who did so). And no poisoning jutsu either. Come to think of it, for someone who uses snakes exclusively, you'd think they'd incorporate the more lethal types of snakes (i.e., poisonous ones) into their repertoire. No such luck though.

Thus, until such time that Orochimaru shows us said jutsu...he ain't got 'em. I mean seriously, you don't hear me claiming that Sasuke can perform Rashoumon (even though he did learn jutsu from Oro, there's nothing that implies he knows that particular jutsu). And I'm not saying that's the point you're trying to get across. Just that I need more to go on than that. It's not a baseless assumption...but there's not enough for it to have any merit in this thread.

And about managing to weaken/paralyze Sasuke...he didn't DO anything. Except get cut to pieces. Here's an example of what the Sasuke vs. Orochimaru argument basically is, or rather, what I'm trying to say: being sickly doesn't effect Orochimaru's susceptibility to Genjutsu. Thus, whether he was on his deathbed or not, Sasuke's Sharingan will have the same effect against him that it has had already. The same effect that Itachi's had. Any argument for Orochimaru as the winner would have to come from a tiajutsu, endurance, or experience perspective, because that's his only real advantage in this fight.

Endurance due to regeneration. Experience due to age. Taijutsu due to longer range jutsu.

[Shaunlim]

@Shaunlim: It's one thing to make assumptions based on a characters personality and fighting style...but in this particular situation that doesn't hold as much weight as you'd expect. Orochimaru has not shown any paralyzing jutsu besides the Genjutsu used pre-timeskip (and that was weak enough for a Genin to escape. And ironically, it was Sasuke who did so). And no poisoning jutsu either. Come to think of it, for someone who uses snakes exclusively, you'd think they'd incorporate the more lethal types of snakes (i.e., poisonous ones) into their repertoire. No such luck though.
Well I'm not really sure about the genjutsu part as I remember reading that it was a type of paralyzing ninjutsu (not sure if they are the same though). Funny thing about the snake is that I don't remember a single character actually got bitten by Oro's snake =/. About the poisoning jutsu, I was more or less assuming that Oro might have known some but that doesn't mean that the only way to get to Sasuke is through poison. Still weapons with poison or poison bombs is still possible.



And about managing to weaken/paralyze Sasuke...he didn't DO anything. Except get cut to pieces. Here's an example of what the Sasuke vs. Orochimaru argument basically is, or rather, what I'm trying to say: being sickly doesn't effect Orochimaru's susceptibility to Genjutsu. Thus, whether he was on his deathbed or not, Sasuke's Sharingan will have the same effect against him that it has had already. The same effect that Itachi's had. Any argument for Orochimaru as the winner would have to come from a tiajutsu, endurance, or experience perspective, because that's his only real advantage in this fight.
It's debatable but that could have just been part of his plan to get Sasuke paralyzed. Seriously he couldn't have done much in that form really. Well like I have said previously, just because Orochimaru is not exactly a pro in countering the Sharingan's genjutsu doesn't mean that he couldn't find a way to go around it. Zabuza did that afterall.

[Black/Light]

It's debatable but that could have just been part of his plan to get Sasuke paralyzed.

He clearly states it was his plan for Sas to become paralyzed by his blood's venom. He set up a trap that would leave Sas at his mercy and Sas fell for it, simple as that. Only thing that saved him was Oro's choice to body rape him over killing him.

[Csdabest]

He clearly states it was his plan for Sas to become paralyzed by his blood's venom. He set up a trap that would leave Sas at his mercy and Sas fell for it, simple as that. Only thing that saved him was Oro's choice to body rape him over killing him.

Where did he CLEARLY state it was his plan to get sliced up by Sasuke.

Here i'll help with the evidence.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-04/
Nothing about being in his plans or his trap.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-05/
Or here
The only trap he talked about is a flashback about when he was trapped
in genjutsu by Itachi. A Paralyzing one.

[Franckie]

Like I mentioned above just because you can't beat the sharingan doesn't mean you can't win against him. He got excited because he thought that he will finally be able to take over Sasuke's body that's all. Taking over the body = killing the target, that may be true but cutting off the head when that target is not moving/poisoned = killing the target as well. And the only reason why Itachi and Sasuke pwned Oro so bad was because he was not fighting to kill them rather just steal their bodies. Not to mention Oro was bedridden during Sasuke's fight.

Oro didn't say: I can't get Itachi because Itachi can resist my technique.
Oro said: I can't get Itachi because Itachi is stronger than I am.

Meaning, Itachi is stronger than Oro, and that leads to two things: 1) Oro can't possess him, and 2) Oro will lose to him in most fights. He doesn't say 2 out loud, but that is what it means to be stronger than someone.

As for Sasuke, I can't stress Oro's flashback more than enough:

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3092/84901061ge7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6555/p1vf9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Itachi won a fight in which Genjutsu was used. We later on see Sasuke use the same move along with Oro getting excited because of it. This is solid proof that Sasuke's eyes are at least as strong as Itachi's eyes when he defeated Oro a decade prior.

In this fight, Oro isn't bedridden and Sasuke will not fall for the same exact trick twice in a row. Sharingan is a wonderful counter for Oro, meaning he's going to get snagged by "those eyes" one way or the other.


As mentioned above, just because you can't beat the Sharingan doesn't mean you are weaker compared to the one using it. But that doesn't mean he couldn't go to that particular form. Not to mention that without that form and at 100%, Oro would have been much much more faster which a lot of jutsus to use. He spent his entire life learning ninjutsu, I'm sure he would have quite a lot at his disposal.

Oro can beat a Sharingan-user of Kakashi's calibre, but he can't beat Sharingan-user of Itachi's/Sasuke's calibre. If that were not the case, then Oro would have succeeded in possessing Itachi and would have no need for Sasuke.


He killed Sarutobi. Remember, the 3rd died. . .and his arms were sealed so what reason would he have to stay? (Plus, the Sound was getting beatten anyway).

Still ran.


Sannin, 3 way cripple fist. . . had to end some way.

Still ran.


4 tails, stale-mate. Neither one was going to win in their current states. Naruto was just a dazed beast and Oro's body was crapping out. . .had to end some way.

It wasn't a stalemate. Whenever Oro initiated an attack, it was parried and he was forced on the defensive. He was repeatedly being torn to shreds, wasting a lot of chakra to repair/defend himself, and forced to flee when he was running low. Oro's body crapping out is what happens when he abuses techs like Oral Rebirth too much, similar to how Rock Lee abusing the gates for too long leaves him unable to fight.


(and well we are on the topic, I wonder what Sas could do against this http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-294/page003.html )

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-389/page010.html


He explained why he didn't let Sas attack them. Plus, theres the good chance that Naruto would beast out again, killing Sas (his body and undercover boy toy at the time) if they were to fight.

Still ran.


And one fight we KNOW he didn't run away from. . . Itachi fight.
We saw the scene where Itachi was forced to cut Oro's hand, but we didn't see what occured after it. Considering Itachi's mentality, it's unlikely Itachi spared Oro's life, meaning the odds of Oro running from Itachi are quite good.


And anyway theres no reason for him to run if you want to kill someone and they are in this position. http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-345/page004.html

That's what Oro did when he couldn't run.


He clearly states it was his plan for Sas to become paralyzed by his blood's venom. He set up a trap that would leave Sas at his mercy and Sas fell for it, simple as that. Only thing that saved him was Oro's choice to body rape him over killing him.

Kishi isn't writing this. He isn't going to put Sasuke into a position to give him a convenient power-up that would be needed in a major upcoming fight. One way or the other, Oro is going to look Sasuke in the eye and he's going to get pummeled by Genjutsu once again.

[Eddy01741]

Lol at "oral rebirth" sounds kinda sketchy, no?

Anyways, I agree with pretty much everything Franckie said.

[Black/Light]

Where did he CLEARLY state it was his plan to get sliced up by Sasuke.

Here i'll help with the evidence.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-04/
Nothing about being in his plans or his trap.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-03/
He plays dead, laying on the ground to let Sas have a false sense of safety well allowing the vemon to work it's mo-jo on Sas.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-04/
"Finnally feeling the effects are we?" (He KNOWS the effects of the White Snake's form's blood being in the air. He is clearly stating that that was a trap. Notice how he aint dead anymore and now rises well Sas is at his mercy)

"The hurmors of these White Snake's can even taunt the air" (He KNEW about this with is why he sent them out and took that form)

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-05/
Notice how his body is back together now, perfectly fine. So he was clearly playing dead, confirming that he was letting Sas think he was done for.

@ Frk

I don't think that something like this http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-389/page015.html (a simple fire jutsu) would stop a gaint wave of snakes with swords THIS size http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-294/page003.html .

When I said the Itachi fight I was refer to Oro ripping himself free of Sas and attacking Itachi instead of "running away".

And yes, the 4 tails fight was a stale mate. Oro wasn't able to hurt Naruto and Naruto wasn't able to do anything other than react. His body was crapping out because it was almost that time to move on out of it (3 years) so doing all his body throw up crap was taking a toll on him.

4 tails Naruto didn't have the focus or ablity to go after Oro and Oro didn't have the means to keep forceing Naruto's reactional attacks.

He ran AFTER killing Sarutobi. . .he didn't run from the fight, just the vill.
And the Sannin fight. . .. should be understandable that one Sannin would leave when he can't use his arms against the other 2.

[bean]

Just because someone can't beat the Sharingan doesn't mean that they cannot beat the Sharingan-user. Zabuza vs Kakashi is the prefect example of that.



funny...and here I thought we were talking about sasuke vs oro...not anyone vs a sharingan....my point still stands.

[jodi]

Where did he CLEARLY state it was his plan to get sliced up by Sasuke.

Here i'll help with the evidence.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-04/
Nothing about being in his plans or his trap.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-05/
Or here
The only trap he talked about is a flashback about when he was trapped
in genjutsu by Itachi. A Paralyzing one.



Oro didn't say: I can't get Itachi because Itachi can resist my technique.
Oro said: I can't get Itachi because Itachi is stronger than I am.

Meaning, Itachi is stronger than Oro, and that leads to two things: 1) Oro can't possess him, and 2) Oro will lose to him in most fights. He doesn't say 2 out loud, but that is what it means to be stronger than someone.

As for Sasuke, I can't stress Oro's flashback more than enough:

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3092/84901061ge7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6555/p1vf9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Itachi won a fight in which Genjutsu was used. We later on see Sasuke use the same move along with Oro getting excited because of it. This is solid proof that Sasuke's eyes are at least as strong as Itachi's eyes when he defeated Oro a decade prior.

In this fight, Oro isn't bedridden and Sasuke will not fall for the same exact trick twice in a row. Sharingan is a wonderful counter for Oro, meaning he's going to get snagged by "those eyes" one way or the other.



Oro can beat a Sharingan-user of Kakashi's calibre, but he can't beat Sharingan-user of Itachi's/Sasuke's calibre. If that were not the case, then Oro would have succeeded in possessing Itachi and would have no need for Sasuke.



Still ran.



Still ran.



It wasn't a stalemate. Whenever Oro initiated an attack, it was parried and he was forced on the defensive. He was repeatedly being torn to shreds, wasting a lot of chakra to repair/defend himself, and forced to flee when he was running low. Oro's body crapping out is what happens when he abuses techs like Oral Rebirth too much, similar to how Rock Lee abusing the gates for too long leaves him unable to fight.



http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-389/page010.html



Still ran.


We saw the scene where Itachi was forced to cut Oro's hand, but we didn't see what occured after it. Considering Itachi's mentality, it's unlikely Itachi spared Oro's life, meaning the odds of Oro running from Itachi are quite good.



That's what Oro did when he couldn't run.



Kishi isn't writing this. He isn't going to put Sasuke into a position to give him a convenient power-up that would be needed in a major upcoming fight. One way or the other, Oro is going to look Sasuke in the eye and he's going to get pummeled by Genjutsu once again.

its pretty clear to me that Oro stated that he was waiting for the venom to work in the same page you say he doesn't.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-04/
"Finally feeling the effects, aren't we?"
that is, for me, crystal clear that he was waiting for venom to work, and the venom are from the white snakes, whose was sliced up by Sasuke

another thing,
In my opinion, your posts are too uncool
you talk like if you know the truth of everything in Narutoverse, you don't even say that what you saying is your opinion
it is aways opinions only...

[Akabeth]

well, if it's a battle of ninjutsus, oro might have him beat...kirin might work, but it most likely won't, and other than that, what does sasuke really have? Oro is like a jinchuuriki only without the whole bijuu thing...however, if oro fell into the trap of trying to take over sasuke, sasuke has him beat.

For that part, I can't agree more :)

I vote for Orochimaru, although it should be a really close battle between these two. Sasuke's genjutsu would be one to factor in. But then again, we haven't seen what Orochimaru was truly capable of if he fought all-out.

[jodi]

For that part, I can't agree more :)

I vote for Orochimaru, although it should be a really close battle between these two. Sasuke's genjutsu would be one to factor in. But then again, we haven't seen what Orochimaru was truly capable of if he fought all-out.

we saw at least 2 battles that Orochimaru went all-out
x sandaime - he was insane with the 2 hokages on his side
x kiuubified naruto - he even said: "my body is rejecting me... the fun will stop here" like he was enjoying fighting naruto

I voted for Orochimaru and I don't think that Sasuke is capable of fighting him in a real battle, without the "I will reborn in your body" stuff

[Raizen]

I liked to see how sasuke would have fared against the two hokages. He would have been utterly destroyed. Oro will beat sasuke.

[The Adamant Dragon]

I would've liked to see how sasuke would have fared against the two hokages. He would have been utterly destroyed. Oro will beat sasuke.


LOL You nailed it Raizen-san, If Oro were to fight Sasuke at one point and unleashed the 1st and 2nd Kages on him, he would've been a gonner for sure. Sarutobi, one of the strongest caracter in the Narutoverse found it utterly difficult to manage those two... let alone kill them <---Since they became immortals with the jutsu Oro used ---, he later found out the only way to get rid of them was to seal away their soul. I Would've liked to see sasuke get his ass out of that one. Since he surely don't know at the level he's in right now, any techniques to seal souls away. Even if he did I Don't think he'd sacrifice himself like Sautobi did... Game-Over, You might as well close this thread :p

Good point Raizen.

[ninjabot]

I liked to see how sasuke would have fared against the two hokages. He would have been utterly destroyed. Oro will beat sasuke.

I'd like to see how Orochimaru manages to summon ANYTHING while his paralyzed with Genjutsu. Orochimaru won't beat Sasuke.

[Shaunlim]

Oro didn't say: I can't get Itachi because Itachi can resist my technique.
Oro said: I can't get Itachi because Itachi is stronger than I am.

Meaning, Itachi is stronger than Oro, and that leads to two things: 1) Oro can't possess him, and 2) Oro will lose to him in most fights. He doesn't say 2 out loud, but that is what it means to be stronger than someone.

As for Sasuke, I can't stress Oro's flashback more than enough:

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3092/84901061ge7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6555/p1vf9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Itachi won a fight in which Genjutsu was used. We later on see Sasuke use the same move along with Oro getting excited because of it. This is solid proof that Sasuke's eyes are at least as strong as Itachi's eyes when he defeated Oro a decade prior.

In this fight, Oro isn't bedridden and Sasuke will not fall for the same exact trick twice in a row. Sharingan is a wonderful counter for Oro, meaning he's going to get snagged by "those eyes" one way or the other.

Oro can beat a Sharingan-user of Kakashi's calibre, but he can't beat Sharingan-user of Itachi's/Sasuke's calibre. If that were not the case, then Oro would have succeeded in possessing Itachi and would have no need for Sasuke.

First of all this thread is not called Itachi vs Oro so it's pointless to bring up whether Itachi is stronger than Oro or not. For the flashback now.....the only reason Sasuke actually got to use that genjutsu was when Oro tried to take over his body that's all there is to it........same case to Itachi as well.
The only time we have seen Oro getting paralyzed by the sharingan was when he was trying to take over an Uchiha's body. If Oro wasn't bedridden he would be moving around and thus harder to make eye contact.....and about Sasuke not falling for the same trick twice....you think that Oro would have fallen for the same trick again ?? The only reason Oro got hit with that genjutsu was because he was too busy taking over Sasuke's body and making eye contact...if he had fight to kill, I doubt it would have ended the same way.
And you are missing the point here. I said just because you couldn't defeat/overpower the Sharingan doesn't mean that you are weaker than the user. That includes the user's proness in using the Sharingan and it has never been mentioned that Sasuke's sharingan is as strong as Itachi, that's just pure speculation. All he did was broke out of Tsukiyomi which was used by a weaken Itachi, the effects may have not been as strong as it should have been.


funny...and here I thought we were talking about sasuke vs oro...not anyone vs a sharingan....my point still stands.
And about 90% of all of you are saying that the reason Oro would lose is because Sasuke has the Sharingan. It's not anyone vs the sharingan, those were just examples of me showing that other characters which was weaker with less experience than Oro which found ways to get pass the sharingan......e.g. Zabuza and Lee.....



I'd like to see how Orochimaru manages to summon ANYTHING while his paralyzed with Genjutsu. Orochimaru won't beat Sasuke.
As mentioned he was only paralyzed when he tried to take over Sasuke and Itachi's body meaning he was not moving around and was probably making eye contact thus making it so easy for him to get genjutsu'ed.



Forget the hokages, I don't even think that Sasuke could actually win against Kimimaru without some serious injuries.

[Csdabest]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-03/
He plays dead, laying on the ground to let Sas have a false sense of safety well allowing the vemon to work it's mo-jo on Sas.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-04/
"Finnally feeling the effects are we?" (He KNOWS the effects of the White Snake's form's blood being in the air. He is clearly stating that that was a trap. Notice how he aint dead anymore and now rises well Sas is at his mercy)

"The hurmors of these White Snake's can even taunt the air" (He KNEW about this with is why he sent them out and took that form)

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/page-05/
Notice how his body is back together now, perfectly fine. So he was clearly playing dead, confirming that he was letting Sas think he was done for.

@ Frk

I don't think that something like this http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-389/page015.html (a simple fire jutsu) would stop a gaint wave of snakes with swords THIS size http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-294/page003.html .

When I said the Itachi fight I was refer to Oro ripping himself free of Sas and attacking Itachi instead of "running away".

And yes, the 4 tails fight was a stale mate. Oro wasn't able to hurt Naruto and Naruto wasn't able to do anything other than react. His body was crapping out because it was almost that time to move on out of it (3 years) so doing all his body throw up crap was taking a toll on him.

4 tails Naruto didn't have the focus or ablity to go after Oro and Oro didn't have the means to keep forceing Naruto's reactional attacks.

He ran AFTER killing Sarutobi. . .he didn't run from the fight, just the vill.
And the Sannin fight. . .. should be understandable that one Sannin would leave when he can't use his arms against the other 2.

To me that was Orochimaru not being planned realizing after he couldn't fight Sasuke in a straight up fight and getting sliced up. He had to wait till the fuems took effect. Orochimaru clearly lets it be known that he knows his body inside and out. Even if it was plan it was a last min attempt it seems. And Sasuke was already looking to counter with Sharingan genjutsu when orochimaru was charging at him.

Snakes hate fight. And I beleive I hear something like either the venom in their body or the oil in their skin makes them highly flameable. But i dont think Kishi looked that deep. But The Fightball jutsu was pretty strong and should of blew a hole right through those snakes dicintergrating them.
[hr]

I'd like to see how Orochimaru manages to summon ANYTHING while his paralyzed with Genjutsu. Orochimaru won't beat Sasuke.

Thats funny. Orochimaru best bet is using other Nin such as The Hokage's to fight his battle. Sasuke was right. Orochimaru is weak,

[Shaunlim]

To me that was Orochimaru not being planned realizing after he couldn't fight Sasuke in a straight up fight and getting sliced up. He had to wait till the fuems took effect. Orochimaru clearly lets it be known that he knows his body inside and out. Even if it was plan it was a last min attempt it seems. And Sasuke was already looking to counter with Sharingan genjutsu when orochimaru was charging at him.

Snakes hate fight. And I beleive I hear something like either the venom in their body or the oil in their skin makes them highly flameable. But i dont think Kishi looked that deep. But The Fightball jutsu was pretty strong and should of blew a hole right through those snakes dicintergrating them.
<hr noshade size="1">


Thats funny. Orochimaru best bet is using other Nin such as The Hokage's to fight his battle. Sasuke was right. Orochimaru is weak,
It was still a plan nonetheless and like I have mentioned before....Oro got sharingan'ed in his dimension when he was performing his ritual where he was not moving and making eye contact.....whether snakes hate to fight or not is not really relevant here and those snakes could have been moving multi direction not necessarily that they would go straight only.

Best bet doesn't mean only bet and that was Oro's jutsu. It is not the same as calling others to fight for him. It's like saying that Pein summoner is useless and weak because he needs his summons to fight for him, Kakashi was useless because he needed his dogs to help him defeat Zabuza, J-man is quite weak as he depended on his summons a number of times or Sasuke is weak because he needed Manda to take Dei's attack for him. It's their JUTSU and by all means they should use it unless we are playing handicap now.

[Csdabest]

Alright So the fight is

100% Sasuke vs 100% Orochimaru, Hashirama, Nidamie. And Possibely the 4th.
But since they are summoning its quite possible that Sasuke can use Sharingan to turn them back on Orochimaru. Since Sasuke has controlled a summoning with it once before.

[Shaunlim]

If shodai and nidai can be easily controlled by the sharingan then the senju clan would have lost the battle against the uchiha a long long time ago..........

[Forever_Melody]

If shodai and nidai can be easily controlled by the sharingan then the senju clan would have lost the battle against the uchiha a long long time ago..........

Although I don't agree with CS on this, I think he means their summoned versions might be controllable via Sharingan.

I mean, Oro controls them by sticking a kunai in their back, if that was all it took IRL, then he'd be controlling some of the strongest people out there >.>

But yeah, Edo Tensei isn't really a viable option if the battle isn't pre-meditated first. Oro needs the actual ashes of the summoned people as well as human sacrifices for the amount of summons, so that makes for quite a bit of preparation.

[Shaunlim]

Although I don't agree with CS on this, I think he means their summoned versions might be controllable via Sharingan.

I mean, Oro controls them by sticking a kunai in their back, if that was all it took IRL, then he'd be controlling some of the strongest people out there >.>
Well seeing that they still have their intellect and jutsus and etc, I believe that their summoned versions won't be so easily affected by the Sharingan. They only lost their personality. As for the Oro controlling people by sticking in kunai with charms into people's back, I think that only works on his summoned mummies.

[Forever_Melody]

Well seeing that they still have their intellect and jutsus and etc, I believe that their summoned versions won't be so easily affected by the Sharingan. They only lost their personality. As for the Oro controlling people by sticking in kunai with charms into people's back, I think that only works on his summoned mummies.

Yeah I know what you mean, although Sharingan has been shown to have a certain degree of control over people via genjutsu(Itachi manipulated Deidara with it and later hypnotized that girl to 'distract' Jiraiya). Granted it won't work on people who know better(like Shodai and Nidai), but just saying it is theoretically possible.

Oh and my example with the kunai was kind of arguing the principle that you were using that if it worked for summons, it wouldn't work for the real thing. You were saying Sharingan can't control the actual Senju people, I'm saying Oro's kunais can't control people either either by the same logic.

[Raizen]

I'd like to see how Orochimaru manages to summon ANYTHING while his paralyzed with Genjutsu. Orochimaru won't beat Sasuke.
Oro who knows full well about the power of the sharingan will go into a fight stupidly looking into the eyes of his opponent :notrust. We are talking about a guy who is obsessed w/ the sharingan. he should know the in-and-outs of its abilities. Maybe that is why sasuke knew about amaretsu. Also he has tons of experience. He can keep sending snakes at sasuke keeping him busy and then extend his sword at sasuke.


Alright So the fight is
100% Sasuke vs 100% Orochimaru, Hashirama, Nidamie. And Possibely the 4th.
But since they are summoning its quite possible that Sasuke can use Sharingan to turn them back on Orochimaru. Since Sasuke has controlled a summoning with it once before.
People thought it was a fair fight when oro used it on the 3rd so why couldn't he use it on sasuke?? Oh, is it b/c sasuke will get utterly annihilated? :blink
Also, resurrections are different from summonings, it is stated somewhere that the resurrected will only obey the person who resurrected them. Either way these are hokages we are talking about. No way would a hokage be controlled by a sharingan when they were alive so it is not going to happen now. Sharingan can only control weaklings like that lady itachi hypnotized and that old man

[Csdabest]

Oro who knows full well about the power of the sharingan will go into a fight stupidly looking into the eyes of his opponent :notrust. We are talking about a guy who is obsessed w/ the sharingan. he should know the in-and-outs of its abilities. Maybe that is why sasuke knew about amaretsu. Also he has tons of experience. He can keep sending snakes at sasuke keeping him busy and then extend his sword at sasuke.


People thought it was a fair fight when oro used it on the 3rd so why couldn't he use it on sasuke?? Oh, is it b/c sasuke will get utterly annihilated? :blink
Also, resurrections are different from summonings, it is stated somewhere that the resurrected will only obey the person who resurrected them. Either way these are hokages we are talking about. No way would a hokage be controlled by a sharingan when they were alive so it is not going to happen now. Sharingan can only control weaklings like that lady itachi hypnotized and that old man


Then Oro doesnt know how to learn from a lesson. He knowns about Sharingan capabilities yet everytime he gets pwned by them.

I didnt think it was fair at all. But I dont see any reason's why Sharingan can't controll the summonings. It has a chakra system which Sharingan manipualtes and controls the being from. Manda obeys no one but Orochimaru and even gives him trouble. And Sasuke made it give its life to sasuke with ease. Also these are not really the actual Hokage's. They dont have the will power or control they once had. They are imitattion. So Sharingan Genjutsu and control should work and bypass the other person control.

[Shaunlim]

Then Oro doesnt know how to learn from a lesson. He knowns about Sharingan capabilities yet everytime he gets pwned by them.

I didnt think it was fair at all. But I dont see any reason's why Sharingan can't controll the summonings. It has a chakra system which Sharingan manipualtes and controls the being from. Manda obeys no one but Orochimaru and even gives him trouble. And Sasuke made it give its life to sasuke with ease. Also these are not really the actual Hokage's. They dont have the will power or control they once had. They are imitattion. So Sharingan Genjutsu and control should work and bypass the other person control.
You probably missed my post where I said that the only time that Oro was shown to be caught by the sharingan's genjutsu is when he was doing the soul transfer which atm he was not moving around avoiding eye contact and even made eye contact because he was too busy taking over the Uchiha's body........

And by all means, none of us said that the Sharingan can't control summonings. What we meant was it's easy to get the summoning out of the genjutsu seeing that it is not Tsukiyomi. About what you said about the mummy Hokages, all they have lost is their personalities nothing else if anything it makes them even more of a killing machine and they are still hokages that faught against the Uchihas before nonetheless so they won't be caught in a genjutsu easily.

The only reason Manda gave it's life to Sasuke was because it was under his genjutsu. The only reason that happened was because eye contact was made(I personally believe that Manda was trick into this). Not to mention that Manda was probably distracted from breaking free from the genjutsu when he got bombed.....

[Kyuugetsu]

Stipulations:

-Sasuke's eyesight is fine throughout the fight
-Sasuke has Susanoo in addition to Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi
-Sasuke has the Sword of Totsuka in his Susanoo and Orochimaru knows he has it
-Sasuke does not have CS or white snake powers (This is purely Sasuke and his personal powers vs Orochimaru and his personal powers)
-Orochimaru is in a body that is no rejecting him and he can use all his jutsus
-This is a fight to the death. Orochimaru isn't trying to take Sasuke's body.

Intelligence:

-Sasuke is fairly intelligent and is able to think on his feet. Orochimaru is also smart and is able to think on his feet. Both are considered "genius," but that means they both catch on quick. They learn fast.

Physical Prowess:

-Sasuke is fairly quick. His speed is often exaggerated. When being compared to fodder shinobi and an exhausted Team 7, yes he will SEEM quick, but then again, Deidara dodged his frontal assault. Sasuke also uses a very durable sword and is able to summon an artillery of kunai and throwing stars.
-Orochimaru's speed in alright. It's good enough for his skill level but it's not an outstanding trait. His body is extremely durable in battle and he is able to summon armies of snakes at will.

Jutsus:
-Sasuke
---Lightning - Chidori/Chidori Variants
---Lightning - Kirin
---Lightning - Elemental Manipulation
---Fire - Fireball/Fire Dragons
---Genjutsu
---Summons - Snakes
---Sharingan/Mangekyou Sharingan
------Tsukuyomi
------Amaterasu
------Susanoo

-Orochimaru
---Summons - Snakes
---Kawarimi - Basic
---Kawarimi - Skin Shedding
---Triple Demon Gate
---White Snake - Regeneration
---Hydra Technique
---White Snake Form
------Poison Blood Fumes

Seeing as both are intelligent, intelligence will not decide this battle. Physically, Orochimaru has Sasuke beat. Orochimaru can endure more physical attacks. Furthermore, unlike Orochimaru, Sasuke cannot use replacement techniques (his ability to due that before was because of Orochimaru's abilities) from what we've seen. Sasuke may be able to summon an artillery of weapons but he can only summon them a few at a time, while Orochimaru can throw an army of snakes at Sasuke at once.
Sasuke may have some taijutsu prowess, but his physical attacks using his sword, kunai, and other ninja weapons will have little affect against Orochimaru's body. As seen in his fight against 4-Tails, Orochimaru can be cut in half, put himself back together (or just shed his skin) and continue his attack. If Sasuke is going to win this match, he will need to depend on his jutsus.

Chidori, Chidori variants, and lightning manipulation all do basically the same thing for Sasuke. It's for cutting and slicing, much like his physical weapons. However, we all know what will happen if Sasuke uses those physical weapons against Orochimaru. Orochimaru's body can endure a lot of physical damage and he can simply shed his skin if necessary. I'm not sure if Sasuke can even aim at Orochimaru's chest (for his heart supposedly). When Orochimaru was cut in half, there were snakes inside him. I'm not sure if he even has organs anymore.

The jutsus that Sasuke has that aren't so similar to physical attacks are Kirin and the fire jutsus. The fire jutsus may do some damage if they land. However, Orochimaru is quite a good dodger when he needs to be. Against rhe 4-Tails, with a combination of speed and skin shedding, he was able to dodge the 4-Tails's arms and hone in from a long distance to punch the 4-Tails in the face. It would be very hard for a fire jutsu to hit him. Kirin, however is a different story. Kirin hits in a split second so Orochimaru wouldn't be able to dodge it. However, the flaw in Kirin is it's preparation. Orochimaru would realize Sasuke is preparing Kirin and he could ready himself to endure it. Orochimaru could surround himself in snakes and secretly shed his skin, hiding himself underground. Kirin would hit the skin and the lightning will be grounded when it hits the earth leaving Orochimaru unharmed and in the position for a surprise attack.

Sasuke's genjutsu would also be effective if it hits. However, his genjutsu comes from his eyes and not only does Orochimaru have to be charging Sasuke directly, but he'd have to be looking directly at his face to fall for his genjutsu. Orochimaru is capable of fighting without doing either of these actions. Furthermore, I believe Orochimaru also has genjutsu of his own dealing with snakes. We can probably call this a wash.

Now that we've got Sasuke's primary jutsus out of the way. Let's discuss the thing everyone loves to talk about: the MS. Tsukuyomi will be like Sasuke's other genjutsu. Sasuke would need Orochimaru to be looking directly at him for it to work. Amaterasu is easily taken care of. Sasuke used Orochimaru's Kawarimi technique to escape Itachi's Amaterasu and seeing as Orochimaru can use his Kawarimi technique multiple times in battle, it's very unlikely Amaterasu will do anything to Orochimaru.

But what about Susanoo? Susanoo has the Sword of Totsuka and a shield that can nullify any attack. In this fight, Orochimaru knows about the Sword of Totsuka, so he'd know that he'd have to dodge it at all costs. He could also use his snakes as cover if necessary. Getting around the shield would be the real problem. However, as I said earlier, Orochimaru was able to reach 4-Tails to punch him, starting from a long range, while dodging the 4-Tails hands. Replace 4-Tails two hands with Sword of Totsuka and Yata's Shield and replace punching 4-Tails in the face with stabbing Sasuke in the face.

To conclude this, it's obvious that I personally believe that Orochimaru would win against Sasuke. I don't even have to mention Orochimaru's White Snake blood, which can paralyze Sasuke and provide an easy win, or his Edo Tensei to be able to summon Hokages. You guys do realize that I purposely forgot about those two things Orochimaru can do and went ahead and gave Sasuke Susanoo and from my analysis, Orochimaru still wins.

Merged Threads

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

There is already a thread about this fight. But i agree with you that Oro will win. I will have post the reason why he will win but i already posted it like a million type in the other thread about it.

[Raizen]

There is already a thread about this fight. But i agree with you that Oro will win. I will have post the reason why he will win but i already posted it like a million type in the other thread about it.
LOL
Its funny, oro who survived a battle against a monster like the 4TK is being compared to sasuke who got killed twice by hachibi with aid

[mattiaildivino]

if they fought now,if Orochimaru came back,Sasuke would own him in a flash. at that period,Orochimaru was strogner than Sasuke. He won just because orochiamruw as weakened,in facts he had to changed body in a day or he would have died. I show you this,it's when Sasuke admitted that he wouldn have defeated orochimaru if they had been at their full power. http://www.mangareader.net/93-368-15/naruto/chapter-363.html

[Prince Sasuke]

Really not even close, all three MS Jutsu could possibly kill him. Orochimaru would be on defense until he runs out of chakra.

[Chidori602]

As of right now, i have to go with sas. Those walls he uses all the time wont help him much if sasuke uses sasuno. (note sasuke has ems now, so we dont know how strong he is now).