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bax
May 23, 2008, 02:37 AM
Bleacj -101 is out. Get it HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31539)!!

Have fun reading and go ahead discuss the chapter. Pretty much an interesting chapter. Fell free to throw in some predictions while you're at it :)

Darek Khort
May 23, 2008, 02:44 AM
Very nice chapter. Now we know Urahara's relationship to the Kudo captain!
And they were interesting hollow forms. But now I feel we definately can't finish in one more chapter.

someguy0830
May 23, 2008, 03:17 AM
Kubo will probably cut it off with them all going hollow. Either that or he'll sideswipe us by suddenly jumping ahead to the end with them all getting banished, but even that wouldn't cover Kisuke. Then again, he might forsake his earlier claim and keep going for another month.

Go Mashiro! Put those legs to use. Sorta reminds me of the Yoruichi vs Soifon fight. kensei did good, too. One hit and Love is half-beaten already. Our knowledge of the future dictates that they're going to lose and become hollows, too, but the struggle's always nice.

iyung
May 23, 2008, 03:51 AM
well if this is suppose to wrapped up by 100 i figured its something vizards that make them special that for some reason whatever is happening that turns them into hollows only happened to them. I say this because why were vizards as we know them now the only ones to turn into hollows and other people attacked at the camp completely dissappear. just a thought

and by the way its looking less likely Aizen has anything to do with this becuase if he figured out this way to get vizard powers a hundred years prior to his hueco mundo events what would be the point he would be able to crush every one himself.

and since urahara doesn't have a hand in it cause he racing to the scene.

all im saying this better make sense the next issue and why the scene painted is every one exiled from soul society in one issue. in one place. with no other witnesses. this better be wrapped up better than latex condom

hasoon87
May 23, 2008, 04:00 AM
awesome chapter, I agree that it'll be tight to finish in a single chapter, which leads me to believe that it might as well go into the -90's, Kishmoto (did I get it right? or is he naruto's author?) might just use up as many chapters as are needed to set the story straight then head back to current events.

Next chapter is gonna be AWWWWESOOOOMMMME!

Darek Khort
May 23, 2008, 04:45 AM
It could well be that he is just trying to show the power of the Vizards in this Gaiden before he reverts to the present where the Vizards will most likely appear to help the Captains in taking on the top 3 espada and Aizen.
The main reason for the Gaiden in my opinion is to show the strength of the Vizards before they were transformed and the strength of Urahara and co and how they are all connected.

This way we won't go OMFG WHY ARE THEY SO POWERFUL???? when they start getting evenly-matched with the Espada. That's what I reckon. It's basically an "Oh, they were already captains even before they turned Vizard so they must be hell powerful" and "oh, he was Captain of Kido so of course he is that powerful".


Next chapter we'll probably get to see all the hollow transformations before heading off to present day, present time.

Asmodan
May 23, 2008, 05:14 AM
Great chapter!

Just had a wierd thought!....... Hollows eat souls, hollows have mouths, so they can eat souls! Where are the mouths on Kensei and Mashiro? Even Ichigos mask is split between head and jaw line. And now that I think about it, even Hirako's mask has a solid structured line down the middle, stopping him from opening it.

I wander if there's a reason to this. Just strikes me as strange. Hollows without mouths!

LoS
May 23, 2008, 05:36 AM
Dude get out of here with your spam. You plugged your site in everyone of your post. Stop being a troll.

put it in your damn sig if you want ppl to check it out.

kunai-knight
May 23, 2008, 05:38 AM
check out this site its all about ch -101 really awesome

http://sosoarsenal.blogg.se/?c=1211537785


no no kalamankala!! check out this one!! It has even more -101 stuff! zomg!!! link :notrust (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31545)

hatsuharupeace
May 23, 2008, 05:40 AM
I've already reported the post LoS, so don't worry about it.

From the end of chapter -101, does this mean that Kisuke also becomes a hollow??? Or will he escape somehow??

kunai-knight
May 23, 2008, 05:47 AM
I always thought that was the point of the flashbacks you know. Not really to show the strength of the vaizard or anything like that or to show how they came about. I think its to reveal someone who we didnt know was a hollow before, so that when they're shown with a mask later on in the series we don't go zoomgwtf!?!

so its entirely possible for kisuke to turn hollow.

fremeer
May 23, 2008, 05:49 AM
i think the vaizards all got transformed by some entity and were able to control their hollow forms. Now the question is whether ichigo is a real vaizard. His transformation to vaizard was completely different, he started out human and became hollow shinigami at the same time. Also i think urahara was banished because of the vaizards and they gave an excuse of him inventing a bad kind of gigai.

garreto
May 23, 2008, 07:13 AM
I'm also very interested in knowing why Kensei's and Mashiro's masks do not have the standard Hollow "teeth." Instead, their masks seem to have slitted holes and whether or not these are simply used for breathing, it seems the overall design of theirs is quite similar.

hot_chips
May 23, 2008, 07:41 AM
I'm also very interested in knowing why Kensei's and Mashiro's masks do not have the standard Hollow "teeth." Instead, their masks seem to have slitted holes and whether or not these are simply used for breathing, it seems the overall design of theirs is quite similar.
Because they aren't essential a proper Hollow.
The mask just shows that they are using Hollow powers like if a Shinigami used his Bankai it would show another form instead of remaining the same.

kalerab
May 23, 2008, 07:49 AM
I'm also very interested in knowing why Kensei's and Mashiro's masks do not have the standard Hollow "teeth." Instead, their masks seem to have slitted holes and whether or not these are simply used for breathing, it seems the overall design of theirs is quite similar.

Shawlong mask didn´t have mouth as well. And he could consume another adjuchas.

gigantor21
May 23, 2008, 08:08 AM
^ I'm pretty sure Edorad's didn't either, but I'll have to double check.

Anyway, given how the non-hybrids are getting raped, I expect Tessai and Urahara to be too late. But then what? There are so many plot points to cover after that--who's behind the attack, what Tessai and Urahara get blamed for, when the gigai comes into play--that it can't be covered in 18 pages. And since everyone involved knew Aizen was the culprit, Kubo has to cover that stuff. I'm just hoping that it won't feel rushed at the end.

Also, the spoilers didn't do this chapter justice.

Morlun
May 23, 2008, 09:58 AM
Awesome chapter (again... Bleach's becoming predictably awesome :D). I just had a thought, though... are we sure that Kubo's gonna let us know who's behind the vizardization in the gaiden?

I mean, it can't be Urahara, because of his behaviour during the gaiden. It can't be Aizen, because he went to extraordinary lengths to steal the hougyoku so he could make hybrids, so it would make no sense if he was making hybrids 100 years before. This means there's a mystery villain in Bleach, and that's a really powerful person...

I totally see Kubo holding out the identity of the villain(s) on us, and then blindsiding us with it 20 or 50 chapters down the road (remember those days when Gin was the mystery villain who had slain that nice Aizen-taichou? :p).

seandm
May 23, 2008, 10:10 AM
Now looking at the overall situation, here's my prediction of the situation.

Aizen is the one who's causing this event.

Aizen has secretly found ways to turn shinigami into hybrids and found that he has no ability to control them to create an army of his own. So in the present time, he decided to go to the Hollow side because he find it easier to create hybrid through hollows (higher success rate obviously since there're way more arrancars than vizards). Kiske realzed that vizards are uncontrollable and will be rejected by soul society so they all left and came to the human world

Splat
May 23, 2008, 10:30 AM
Now looking at the overall situation, here's my prediction of the situation.

Aizen is the one who's causing this event.

Aizen has secretly found ways to turn shinigami into hybrids and found that he has no ability to control them to create an army of his own. So in the present time, he decided to go to the Hollow side because he find it easier to create hybrid through hollows (higher success rate obviously since there're way more arrancars than vizards). Kiske realzed that vizards are uncontrollable and will be rejected by soul society so they all left and came to the human world

This situation is not possible, Aizen said himself that Urahara was the only person who discovered how to break the barrier between shinigami and hollow. If aizen had managed to do it in the past he would have told us about it instead of giving all the credit to Urahara.

In my opinion whoever it was that attacked kensei and mashiro was working with Urahara. They probably had orders not to use the hougyoku on captain level shinigami, but they did it anyway. I have no explanation for how they were strong enough to take out kensei and mashiro. Of course there is still the possibility that Aizen was working with Urahara at the time, but i'm sceptical about this option.

seandm
May 23, 2008, 10:33 AM
Actually, I would not be surprised if Aizen, Gin, and Tosei are capable to become a Vizard as well. Otherwise it'd seemingly be a dominating battle between at least Gin + Tosei vs 2 other Vizards

Silhouette
May 23, 2008, 10:46 AM
Great chapter!

Just had a wierd thought!....... Hollows eat souls, hollows have mouths, so they can eat souls! Where are the mouths on Kensei and Mashiro? Even Ichigos mask is split between head and jaw line. And now that I think about it, even Hirako's mask has a solid structured line down the middle, stopping him from opening it.

I wander if there's a reason to this. Just strikes me as strange. Hollows without mouths!

They have mouths behind the masks but having a mouth opening that allows you to chew isn't necessary to feed. The first things comes to mind when picturing hollows eating is GJ chewing up his enemies but Yammi didn't, he sucked Karakura citizens' souls.

-----------------------------------------

It's funny how it never occurred to me that every hollow transformation is consistent with Shirosaki 's speech about the king and his horse and how the horse got more physical strength.
Shirosaki is physically stronger than Ichigo and so are hollow-kensie and hollow-Mashiro than their shinigami selves. This is why Love was about to pull his mask when get owned by shirosaki and this is why masked Ichigo was able to tolerate GJ's attacks.


http://i27.tinypic.com/301pqnc.jpg


Thank you binktopia for the humor

sk.nite
May 23, 2008, 11:04 AM
This situation is not possible, Aizen said himself that Urahara was the only person who discovered how to break the barrier between shinigami and hollow. If aizen had managed to do it in the past he would have told us about it instead of giving all the credit to Urahara.

In my opinion whoever it was that attacked kensei and mashiro was working with Urahara. They probably had orders not to use the hougyoku on captain level shinigami, but they did it anyway. I have no explanation for how they were strong enough to take out kensei and mashiro. Of course there is still the possibility that Aizen was working with Urahara at the time, but i'm sceptical about this option.

He did say that, but he also said that he experimented on hybrids (both ways). I think that he is the culprit behind the experiments, and that he consireded it a failure for some reason (lack of control, not enough power, etc). Then he started experimenting in hollows, but he couldnt create a powerful enough hybrid, and that's when the hougyoku came into play and hence the credit for Urahara.

Starky-08
May 23, 2008, 11:08 AM
I get the feeling that when the vizards show up in karakura town back in the present time, Shinji and Aizen will fight, I hope and think that Rose will fight Stark that'd be awesome(Fave arrancar vs fave Vizard) Kensei will fight One of the espada or Tousen and Mashiro and Lisa may fight Halibel, Love helping out Kensei or sumting, this of course if the captains dont fight, which I think they will lol :L

Which fight do you think would be better?
Stark vs Shunsui
Stark vs Rose

I dunno I like the two of em I could go either way.

tarantula19
May 23, 2008, 12:43 PM
It's still a mystery who those three people were in the beginning of chapter -104.

Would it be a curve ball to say that the person behind the attacks is actually the former 12th division captain who we presume to have been promoted... but actually... vanished.

If that middle figure has an "umbrella"... there's a high chance of them being female... it's definitely not Rihanna. (Lame, I know.)

Either way, I hope we find out more about the Royal Guard and if, was it Hikifune?, is really in there.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/02/

Splat
May 23, 2008, 01:17 PM
He did say that, but he also said that he experimented on hybrids (both ways). I think that he is the culprit behind the experiments, and that he consireded it a failure for some reason (lack of control, not enough power, etc). Then he started experimenting in hollows, but he couldnt create a powerful enough hybrid, and that's when the hougyoku came into play and hence the credit for Urahara.

nope, he said he experimanted on shinigami hollows http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/11/

i think urahara is going to use a bunch of those cloaks to hide the vaizards and help them escape

Jehuty
May 23, 2008, 01:18 PM
So Kensei and Mashiro were the first Vizards... Mashiro, apparently, needed no training to master her mask. Probably because she's so carefree that her Hollow can't feed on her darkness.

It all ends next chapter... then back to Ichigo and Ulquiorra... and what of Urahara and co.?

I personally prefer the Vizard's present-day looks to their Soul Society looks. They're more stylish, especially Shinji's bowlcut-trenchcoat. Though I do love Rabu's/Love's (any consensus on that?) fro.

hajialibaig
May 23, 2008, 01:34 PM
Woah. Interesting chapter. Kensei looks sick.

Did anyone else notice that when Aizen talks about how Urahara created the Hougyuku,
<http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/13/>, he is wearing a captain's uniform? And also, he couldn't have created the Hougyuku without using the lab in SS. Well, that means he isn't going to get banished yet, I think he'll just help the Vaizards escape now, using that black coat. But later on, will be convicted of doing so, and get banished as well, after creating the Hougyuku. Sounds pretty convincing.

Also, <http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/02/>, short person on the left looks like gin..

sk.nite
May 23, 2008, 01:50 PM
nope, he said he experimanted on shinigami hollows http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/11/

i think urahara is going to use a bunch of those cloaks to hide the vaizards and help them escape

Yep, you're right, he never said that. But I re-read that chapter and few more of vol 20 and I still believe that Aizen is behind this whole thing. The one who attacked the 9th division encampment has the exact same attack style that Aizen has (like when in vol 20 half of ss gets owned by him).

Also, in those chapters it was mentioned Uraharha's gigai and that it was reason of his exile because it turned shinigamis into humans (besides being undetectable). Has anyone noticed that the reason that Isshin lost his powers was due to Urahara's gigai? Probably most readers have, but not me. I can't believe I missed that. I guess I'm a moron after all :imslow

patedecarne
May 23, 2008, 02:14 PM
Definitely a great chapter, but if Kubo manages to finishes this arc in just one more chapter, he'll me a miracle man;

Kensei's powers is too much, the experiment had a good result after all, but the true goal still is unclear...

but Kensei will destroy the entire SS that way, there's no way to survive...

Kisuke will do anything about it, now he's the only hope...


ps:but did you guys thought about this: Kubo said the Gaiden would be about 2 months, but he never stated it would have only 9 chapters or exactly 2 months... with one more month, I believe we'll have time to everything;

Maybe we're jumping to the conclusions too early...

Splat
May 23, 2008, 02:20 PM
Yep, you're right, he never said that. But I re-read that chapter and few more of vol 20 and I still believe that Aizen is behind this whole thing. The one who attacked the 9th division encampment has the exact same attack style that Aizen has (like when in vol 20 half of ss gets owned by him).

Also, in those chapters it was mentioned Uraharha's gigai and that it was reason of his exile because it turned shinigamis into humans (besides being undetectable). Has anyone noticed that the reason that Isshin lost his powers was due to Urahara's gigai? Probably most readers have, but not me. I can't believe I missed that. I guess I'm a moron after all :imslow

i agree that it could still be aizen behind the attacks, but he would be working as a subordinate of urahara, and going against the instructions that he was given. just to clarify, i mean subordinate in an unofficial sense, not that he has moved to 12th division

sk.nite
May 23, 2008, 02:51 PM
Definitely a great chapter, but if Kubo manages to finishes this arc in just one more chapter, he'll me a miracle man;

Kensei's powers is too much, the experiment had a good result after all, but the true goal still is unclear...

but Kensei will destroy the entire SS that way, there's no way to survive...

Kisuke will do anything about it, now he's the only hope...


ps:but did you guys thought about this: Kubo said the Gaiden would be about 2 months, but he never stated it would have only 9 chapters or exactly 2 months... with one more month, I believe we'll have time to everything;

Maybe we're jumping to the conclusions too early...

If it keeps going at the current pace it definitely won't end until at least 3 or 4 chapters. And about what Kubo said, don't take him seriously, he's not right in the head :grin

kal-elh
May 23, 2008, 03:03 PM
well he still has until the chapter 001

but dude that would be about 2 years long

wrstljr
May 23, 2008, 03:29 PM
My guess is maybe we all get suprised with a single chapter of about 30-35 pages.

Otherwise everything will be cut off and then revealed much much later on...which would be insanely annoying considering all the questions we already have about Bleach.

someguy0830
May 23, 2008, 03:38 PM
The questions are what keep us coming back. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he left us hanging at all the vizard in their hollow forms.

THETRUTH.com
May 23, 2008, 03:56 PM
I think it is Aizen behind this but without control these beings are of no use to anyone. On that page Aizen said he focused on shinigami--hollows not he only experimented on them. Their are several reasons for this the most important is probably captain-level shinigami needed for this method (availiblity of test subjects). He also mentions that no one except Urahara made any breakthoughs. That would mean that he either knew nothing of this incident or that he considered this a failure.

Great chapter seeing Mashiro in hollow form. Hacchi being somewhat of an equalizer seems Kubo maybe increasing the importants of having an all around battle skill set. I like the idea of an extended chapter.

TheChosenOne
May 23, 2008, 05:24 PM
Just read the new chapter, freaking awesome, was great to see Kensie and Mashiro in vaizard action, can't wait for the final chapter (is there one more ?). I wonder if Kubo will reveal the perpetrator for the vaizard transformation next chapter, maybe not. :)

anonym9191
May 23, 2008, 05:41 PM
Now that all are talking about Vizzards: I wonder if Ichigo is already a full Vizzard. After all his Hollow said at the time when he was "defeating" him, something like that he should wait with the fighting because only after he returns he will get his full strength or something like this... At least if I remember correctly...

Raizen
May 23, 2008, 07:26 PM
Now that all are talking about Vizzards: I wonder if Ichigo is already a full Vizzard. After all his Hollow said at the time when he was "defeating" him, something like that he should wait with the fighting because only after he returns he will get his full strength or something like this... At least if I remember correctly...
Vaizards are shinigamis w/ hollow powers. Ichigo is a shinigami and now has gained hollow powers. He is a vaizard.

As for the chapter it was very cool. I am hoping somehow next chapter has like 50 pages or something. hahaha. I know this might not happen but I really want to see the SS captains fight the espadas. Although Aizen is outnumbered, I bet he has some crazy powerful hollows in the wing other than the espadas and these are the ones the vaizards fight. Anyways great chapter

vashdestampede
May 23, 2008, 08:12 PM
i doubt it'll be wrapped up in one chapter
i'm also doubting that kkubo will reveal the people responsible for it
I think that's going to be a storyline for the vaizards where they get their revenge / thank them for what happened

godofthesunn
May 23, 2008, 08:25 PM
I dunno guys.. I still want to see the rest of them go vizard.. and at this rate I dont see any reason for them to become vizard... unless they are stabbed.. The real question I want to know is how does the group get infected with the problem.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what causes the hallowification of shinigami?

someguy0830
May 23, 2008, 09:03 PM
I've said this somewhere earlier, but whatever that "prototype" the shadowy figures spoke of is, it seems to be infecting people, attempting a transformation, then moving on, either of its own accord or that of the architects. Simply having come in contact with Kensei and Mashiro will likely be enough to get the other six infected.

Warrior Advance
May 23, 2008, 10:16 PM
Wow. This is a great chapter also. It is amazing to see 2 vaizards (actually, it is in hollow mode not in vaizard mode) in action. Btw, it seems that Shinji and Co. has difficulties in taming their friends' hollow power. I am very curious about how Shinji and Co. become Vaizards.

Second, don't you think that it has possibility that Tessai and Kisuke will be become Vaizard too? I mean that when they arrive at the ground zero, they may be attacked by many Vaizards (assume that all captains are already in vaizard mode). It is possible that they will be defeated by those "monsters" and they will be in the vaizard mode.

Third, there is speculation that Isshin is connected with this incident. There are many possibilities. But I think and I hope that Isshin is not connected with vaizard. I hope that Isshin is the captain of Royal Guard, which is very powerful person. And is there are specific forum that can discuss about Isshin?

Tsukisama
May 23, 2008, 10:55 PM
Very nice chapter. Hacchi rocks. Hollow Kensei and hollow Mashiro are also awesome.


awesome chapter, I agree that it'll be tight to finish in a single chapter, which leads me to believe that it might as well go into the -90's, Kishmoto (did I get it right? or is he naruto's author?) might just use up as many chapters as are needed to set the story straight then head back to current events.

Next chapter is gonna be AWWWWESOOOOMMMME!

It is very possible that Kubo will continue the gaiden further. When he made the statement about the length of this gaiden, it was an approximate length and so we should not take it as something set in stone. Kubo could go as far as he likes, but I would imagine one or two more chapters left.

I agree wholeheartedly. The next chapter is going to be freaking sweet. :hbunny


I've already reported the post LoS, so don't worry about it.

From the end of chapter -101, does this mean that Kisuke also becomes a hollow??? Or will he escape somehow??

I think that Kisuke (and Tessai) will somehow make it out unchanged (possibly injured but not turned into vizards). They don't seem to be vizards in the future, given Urahara's conversation with Isshin, which makes it seem as though they were referring to the vizards as a completely separate group. (This is not solid proof of anything but my interpretation)


I get the feeling that when the vizards show up in karakura town back in the present time, Shinji and Aizen will fight, I hope and think that Rose will fight Stark that'd be awesome(Fave arrancar vs fave Vizard) Kensei will fight One of the espada or Tousen and Mashiro and Lisa may fight Halibel, Love helping out Kensei or sumting, this of course if the captains dont fight, which I think they will lol :L

Which fight do you think would be better?
Stark vs Shunsui
Stark vs Rose

I dunno I like the two of em I could go either way.

Stark vs Shunsui definitely. I don't really see any reason for Rose to fight Stark especially except that they are your favorite vizard and espada, respectively. Plus, if Love were to end up helping anyone in a fight, it would probably be Rose, since those two have always seemed really close to me.


I personally prefer the Vizard's present-day looks to their Soul Society looks. They're more stylish, especially Shinji's bowlcut-trenchcoat. Though I do love Rabu's/Love's (any consensus on that?) fro.

The consensus is with "Love."


Third, there is speculation that Isshin is connected with this incident. There are many possibilities. But I think and I hope that Isshin is not connected with vaizard. I hope that Isshin is the captain of Royal Guard, which is very powerful person. And is there are specific forum that can discuss about Isshin?

I am sure there are threads about Isshin in Biblioteca (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51) that suit your discussion needs. If you cannot find a thread that suitably concerns your topic on Isshin, you can make a new thread in Biblioteca on that topic.

sk.nite
May 24, 2008, 12:22 AM
I think that Kisuke (and Tessai) will somehow make it out unchanged (possibly injured but not turned into vizards). They don't seem to be vizards in the future, given Urahara's conversation with Isshin, which makes it seem as though they were referring to the vizards as a completely separate group. (This is not solid proof of anything but my interpretation)


If I recall correctly, they refered to them as "the group of outlaw shinigami that obtained hollow powers through the use of forbidden techniques". I got the impression that the vaizards transformed on their own accord from that line. Maybe it was an unaccurate translation, or maybe Kubo didn't plan ahead that much. Either way, since we now know that they transformed unwillingly, Urahara and Tessai might have done it too.

ShaunMati1
May 24, 2008, 12:25 AM
Well guys here is what im thinking. Does Kubo really need to show what happened to every single person...if there is one more chapter i believe kubo will just jump a little bit ahead to where urahara, tessai, and youruichi are standing in front of yama about to become exiled. I mean we saw how 2 of the present vaizards became...vaizards, they got stabbed and are having an inner battle, and since the mystery person is strong enough to do that to kensei i have no doubt he can cut hiyori and shinji etc. So if there is one more chapter i believe thats the best way to go, to have a scene in front of yama explaining why they are being exiled and towards the end it will say "the mystery attacker....who was he?" and it will show the face of the present Aizen in KK town. I like that ending lol what do u guys think??

Tsukisama
May 24, 2008, 12:34 AM
If I recall correctly, they refered to them as "the group of outlaw shinigami that obtained hollow powers through the use of forbidden techniques". I got the impression that the vaizards transformed on their own accord from that line. Maybe it was an unaccurate translation, or maybe Kubo didn't plan ahead that much. Either way, since we now know that they transformed unwillingly, Urahara and Tessai might have done it too.

The chapter is 188. Yes, Isshin refers to the vizards along those lines, but my impression of the tone of their conversation was that Urahara was referring to the vizards as a group and was not counting himself among them. They discussed the vizards as "the vizards" and not "those particular vizards" or "the vizards who are not you (Urahara) and Tessai." This is what I was referring to that caused me to think that Urahara and Tessai aren't vizards, not the part about Isshin calling them criminals.

someguy0830
May 24, 2008, 12:51 AM
It wouldn't make much sense for Urahara to be a vizard, at least not at the same time as the ones we already know of. It took the eight of them to hold Ichigo down, and Kisuke has to be on a level equaling or exceeding Ichigo. Who could hold him for an hour? Urahara will probably arrive too late, and Hiyori will have turned with the rest of the group. That little cloak of his will probably keep them from going after him, and so they'll turn on Sereitei.

mdp
May 24, 2008, 01:43 AM
Well guys here is what im thinking. Does Kubo really need to show what happened to every single person...if there is one more chapter i believe kubo will just jump a little bit ahead to where urahara, tessai, and youruichi are standing in front of yama about to become exiled. I mean we saw how 2 of the present vaizards became...vaizards, they got stabbed and are having an inner battle, and since the mystery person is strong enough to do that to kensei i have no doubt he can cut hiyori and shinji etc. So if there is one more chapter i believe thats the best way to go, to have a scene in front of yama explaining why they are being exiled and towards the end it will say "the mystery attacker....who was he?" and it will show the face of the present Aizen in KK town. I like that ending lol what do u guys think??

This is a pretty good prediction of what kubo will in all actuality end up doing if he is to finish this up in one more chapter :s But of course i would prefer to see all the vizards in their hollow form but i highly doubt kubo will do that :notrust

ShinigamiAkuma
May 24, 2008, 09:14 AM
Has anyone thought that the only person missing from the arc is ISSHIN! Surely he should be involved in the hollow transformation or anything!

gigantor21
May 24, 2008, 10:07 AM
^ You know...I haven't missed him much.

Yes, it'd be awesome to see Isshin. But how much could he contribute? If he gave up being a shinigami 20 years ago, and wasn't among the captains in the Gaiden, he'd either be A) A Royal Guard or B) VC level or below. If either case, he wouldn't be able to help anyway, which means he'd be fanservice (like Byakuya).

If we do see his days in SS, I want them to be substantive. We know too little about him for anything less.

ShaunMati1
May 24, 2008, 12:22 PM
Has anyone thought that the only person missing from the arc is ISSHIN! Surely he should be involved in the hollow transformation or anything!

Well u know he knows all about the vizards and aizens plans...surely i would hope he would be involved in this arc. I hope we do see him, hes one of the few people we havent had a back story of.

Cyanilurus
May 24, 2008, 04:56 PM
Back when we learnt about Isshin being a shinigami Hirako also said that he can' t recognize the reiatsu of "that shinigami" (chapter 187) so I' m quite certain that his story won' t unfold now.

ZeRO_
May 24, 2008, 06:48 PM
wow....i just realized that the Kido Captain is the guy with glasses that works for Urahara in his shop... lol

ShaunMati1
May 24, 2008, 08:11 PM
Back when we learnt about Isshin being a shinigami Hirako also said that he can' t recognize the reiatsu of "that shinigami" (chapter 187) so I' m quite certain that his story won' t unfold now.

Well how else can u explain Isshin knowing everything. Heres what i think, i think that shinji didnt recognize his raitsu because back then Isshin maybe wasnt as strong. Maybe once the vizards and urahara were banished his power grew and grew.So once Isshin regained his powers in KK town to fight Grand Fisher no one recognized it, only urahara.

Oni Shinigami
May 24, 2008, 08:38 PM
Great chapter as are the rest of the flash back episodes.

So I'm guessing the lot of them will be transformed into Vizards within the next chapter.

Tessai being the Kidou captain is pretty interesting. It makes me wonder wtf is the deal with Jinta and Ururu where did they come from x_x ?

I think Isshin is probably an Elite Guard member for sure.

TheChosenOne
May 24, 2008, 08:52 PM
So I'm guessing the lot of them will be transformed into Vizards within the next chapter.

True, reckoning the other 5 have gathered all around the two vaizard clearly means that we will likely see them all transforming. :)


I think Isshin is probably an Elite Guard member for sure.

You mean Royal Guard, at the moment that seems to be the most popular theory behind Isshin and his past. :)

narutobleachmanga
May 24, 2008, 09:22 PM
We obviously know Tessai and Urahara couldn't get there in time before all of them transform into vizards. During their inner battle transformation, the vizards, like kensai, will attacks anyone mindlessly. Therefore, Urahara and Tessai will be in great danger once they get to the scene.

I believe that Isshin is the elite guard who will make an appearance in the next chapter.

Reason: Urahara and Tessai could not possibly escape atleast 6 vizards on their own. You may say Urahara's cloak can help him escape, but even Tessai can detect him so I doubt Shinji, who detect Aizen, will not be able to detect Urahara

Isshin will be there in time to help Urahara and Tessai. I believe thats why he lost his power and left (I personally believe he was exiled) soul society.

I remember after the grand fisher's battle, Isshin mention vizards as shinigami that use forbidden techniques to transform themselves into hollow. However, we do realise that Kensai, Shinji and the others did not use any forbidden techniques. Therefore, I believe that there were other shinigamis who was performing these techniques and they are also the group who is behind this incident.

Suspect 1: Aizen, Gin and Tousen group (15%): Aizen's power were below Shinji so he can't be the one to hollowified Kensai and his hollow experiments were in the early stage. Furthermore, if my memory serves me right, he only realise their were techniques that turn shinigami to hollow after reading Urahara's information on his experiments. Isshin wouldn't even know who Aizen is if he really was the elite guard.

Suspect 2: Hollows/ Missing people in Soul Society (5%): This incident began with missing people in soul society. I really doubt those missing people who turn into hollows have such great power to hollowified/beat up a shinigami.

Suspect 3: Royal guard (80%): At the beginning of this gaiden/arc, we were introduced to the idea of division zero/royal guards. If Isshin was really one of the elite/royal guards, then I believe the shinigami's who Isshin refer to as "using forbidden technique" to hollowified oneself, must be someone/ some group from the elite guards. These elite guards could be the only people who are much more powerful than the captains, hence hollowified them. The elite guards were properly using these captains as experiment. This also indicates why Shinji and the other vizards hated shinigami.

Yeah enough said

someguy0830
May 24, 2008, 09:27 PM
One thing: Tessai could not detect Urahara. He says so himself. He only guessed what Urahara would try and beat him to the punch.

narutobleachmanga
May 24, 2008, 09:29 PM
One thing: Tessai could not detect Urahara. He says so himself. He only guessed what Urahara would try and beat him to the punch.

Thanks for correcting that part

But, I doubt Urahara can escape with that cloak :p

gigantor21
May 24, 2008, 09:41 PM
I'm just wondering when Yoruichi will get involved. Will she catch up with them before they get to the site? Or help Urahara escape when the exile is put in place? And if it's the second choice, will we get to see it?

sk.nite
May 24, 2008, 11:49 PM
The chapter is 188. Yes, Isshin refers to the vizards along those lines, but my impression of the tone of their conversation was that Urahara was referring to the vizards as a group and was not counting himself among them. They discussed the vizards as "the vizards" and not "those particular vizards" or "the vizards who are not you (Urahara) and Tessai." This is what I was referring to that caused me to think that Urahara and Tessai aren't vizards, not the part about Isshin calling them criminals.

So do I. I didn't focus on the part of the line where the vaizards are called criminals, but by the one that says that they used forbidden techniques. I think also that the chance of Tessai and Urahara being vizards is very low, despite being possible.

patedecarne
May 25, 2008, 12:19 AM
I'm just wondering when Yoruichi will get involved. Will she catch up with them before they get to the site? Or help Urahara escape when the exile is put in place? And if it's the second choice, will we get to see it?


Now that Tessai will help the others, I'm sure Yoruichi will appears as well; probably Kubo will write about 4 or 5 more chapters, which I believe will be enough to explain everything;

Probably in the next chapter we'll see Mashiro and Kensei as Vaizards, after that, how Urahara will interact in the problem and finally his banishment; at maximum 6 chapters;

TheChosenOne
May 25, 2008, 12:24 AM
There are still 4-5 chapters left, I thought the Gaiden would only last 8 chapters (via Gaiden FAQ) guess the info was erroneous, well more chapters would be great since that will give room for more info and explorations. :)

Kaemon
May 25, 2008, 01:55 AM
There are still 4-5 chapters left, I thought the Gaiden would only last 8 chapters (via Gaiden FAQ) guess the info was erroneous, well more chapters would be great since that will give room for more info and explorations. :)


Where did you find that says there are still 4-5 chapters left?

Because they still COULD just end it randomly and have it pop up here and there... as annoying as that would be, he still could do it.

someguy0830
May 25, 2008, 02:01 AM
If we're to take the two-month declaration literally, there is one more chapter at the most. If Kubo sticks to his word, we'll be lucky if he goes beyond -100.

Jadedmariner
May 25, 2008, 03:58 AM
Isshin's quotation about the vizard left room for interpretation. He says that they gained hollow powers through the use of forbidden techniques, but never states that they themselves used forbidden techniques. Of course at the time most of us assumed it meant they themselves used forbidden techniques, but the quote can just as easily fit the current story line. Of course if Kubo really wanted to cop out we could find that Ishhin was just quoting the official Soul Society reaction/decision when they are thrown out on their butts.

Warrior Advance
May 25, 2008, 07:04 AM
Hi guys. As it is mentioned that Vasto Lord is truly powerful that even Captain (Shinigami) may not win against the Vasto Lord. I just want to have some comparison.

Shinigami Level:
1. Ordinary Shinigami
2. Shinigami can do Shinkai
3. Shinigami can do Bankai (Captain)
4. Vaizard

Hollow Level:
1. Ordinary Hollow
2. Gigant Hollow
3. Arankuru
4. Espada
5. Vasto Lord.

From the comparison, we can see that shinigami cannot win against hollow. Don't you think that there is possibility that Shinigami can attain new power (not become Vaizard or using prohibited ways) that has the same level as Vasto Lord? It bugs me when I read the Bleach that I know that the captain cannot beat Vasto Lord. If Aizen & Co. use Hougyokyu, they will easily eliminate all the shinigami. I mean that it is the end of Bleach right?

rtyd1
May 25, 2008, 07:50 AM
Where did you find that says there are still 4-5 chapters left?

Because they still COULD just end it randomly and have it pop up here and there... as annoying as that would be, he still could do it.

The way its going there is a great chance that Kubo will turn this mini arc into a full volume which consists of around 9-10 chapters.
[hr]

From the comparison, we can see that shinigami cannot win against hollow. Don't you think that there is possibility that Shinigami can attain new power (not become Vaizard or using prohibited ways) that has the same level as Vasto Lord? It bugs me when I read the Bleach that I know that the captain cannot beat Vasto Lord. If Aizen & Co. use Hougyokyu, they will easily eliminate all the shinigami. I mean that it is the end of Bleach right?

No, its possible that a shinigami that has mastered all his shinigami powers is equal to a vasto lord, the only way to be sure is if Kubo says it in the manga though. It seems to me like Ichigo and the rest of the vaizards (possibly the royal guard) will find a way to fight against Aizen and the Vasto Lords by the end of the manga. I can also see Chad and Ishida gaining power comparable to the vasto lords in the manga eventually btw

Chill0
May 25, 2008, 08:44 AM
Shinigami Level:
1. Ordinary Shinigami
2. Shinigami can do Shinkai
3. Shinigami can do Bankai (Captain)
4. Vaizard

Hollow Level:
1. Ordinary Hollow
2. Gigant Hollow
3. Arankuru
4. Espada
5. Vasto Lord.



I believe its more along the following lines

shinigami level:

1. ordinary shinigami (sword)
2. seated officer (shikai)
3. vice captain (strong shikai)
4. captain (bankai) // Vizard with shikai
5. Vizard with bankai

Hollow level
1. target practice hollow
2. menos // arrancar (grand fisher style xD)
3. adjuchas // menos arrancar (fraccions)
4. Vastolords // Adjuchas arrancar (espada 10-5?)
5. Vastolord arrancar (espada 1-4?)


From this setup you could say that shinigami are in big trouble, but i think its not as bad as it looks. Captains and vastolords should come with different powerlevels. Like aizen=/Hitsugaya same should aply to hollows. If you would arrancarize a vastolord I think a captain like Hitsugaya would be blown away, but yamamoto or aizen could handle it. So these power tiers are not set in stone. Further more we have our own shinigami who turned into vizard and half of them have bankai. So shinigami still have the best cards. Unless Vizards are anti-SS which would be 1st round KO for our shinigami friends. :P.

zet
May 25, 2008, 09:34 AM
I donno guys, I think that kubo could maybe show urahara get there and they're all in hollow form, then have a time skip and maybe show urahara getting exiled (by going against orders and putting the seretei in danger and what else he does). Kubo could go back to these events when some of the vizards fight against azein n co, showing something thats relevant to the story n fight about their past. I dont think he'll give us all the answers like he asn't given much in this gaiden, he's kipping us guessing while throwing a few bones at us.

THETRUTH.com
May 25, 2008, 11:45 AM
I still think Isshin is unlikely to be shown in the gaiden. If he does he will be shown coming to the aide of Urahara & Tessai. They will return the favor by giving him the gigai he uses to escape to the real world. Next chapter Urahara and Tessai will get to the scene some of the future vizards will be transforming but not fully transformed. Urahara will somehow slow down the process and then after talks with Kensei they will understand what needs to be done.

Alot has been made of Shinji not recognizing Isshins energy but wouldnt he have to have been present while Isshin was fighting to even feel it. Or if he was in a division not everyone knows exists, the Royal Guard, he might have never even met him even though they were in SS at the same time.

As I believe Isshin is Shiba I found this page interesting. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/78/16/

That didnt mean alot then and it is thin. But not when facts events are taken into account the similarities between the Kurosakis and Shibas, Urahara created untracable gigai which Isshin most likely used, and Urahara ran the SS prison where shinigami go when they "retire".

zet
May 25, 2008, 11:52 AM
yeah the shiba connection hasn't been explained aswell as ichigos orange hair, it's a bleach mystery I can only guess kubo will explain it later on the manga...maybe it has to do with royal sitting, ichigo as been aluded to be a prince/king in some references in the manga much like orihime as been a princess...their hair colour is kind of similar too...i might just be reaching but you never know.

Emery
May 25, 2008, 11:53 AM
I just don't see how Kubo is going to finish in just 19 more pages.

Kaijuu
May 25, 2008, 12:01 PM
The chances that I'm wrong is patethically big, but... why is everyone expecting Isshin will be in this Gaiden? I have in mind, that he is a substitue Shinigame just like Ichigo... but I don't really remember where I heard it... could also be extra stuff for the anime (means: It happend, but isn't correct^^)

patedecarne
May 25, 2008, 12:12 PM
I just don't see how Kubo is going to finish in just 19 more pages.

Much probably he won't; after all, the two months gaiden wasn't so accurate to say for sure that will be only 9 chapters; probably Kubo was planning since the beginning some extends about Gaiden; I think we he began with it, he coul just made some speculation about the time;


The chances that I'm wrong is patethically big, but... why is everyone expecting Isshin will be in this Gaiden? I have in mind, that he is a substitue Shinigame just like Ichigo... but I don't really remember where I heard it... could also be extra stuff for the anime (means: It happend, but isn't correct^^)


The royal guard was mentioned in the first chapter of gaiden, and some people here believe Isshin was a member of RG; while his story on SS remains unclear, Isshin could in some event with the vaizard and Aizen, because somehow Isshin was aware rom Aizen's plans;

rtyd1
May 25, 2008, 12:15 PM
Since he knows Urahara and it seems like the gaiden will show Urahara's last moments in SS is my guess, Oh and he knows about Aizen too. I dont believe Isshin was a substitute shinigami because he has a special armband which may be from the royal guard

gigantor21
May 25, 2008, 12:31 PM
The chances that I'm wrong is patethically big, but... why is everyone expecting Isshin will be in this Gaiden? I have in mind, that he is a substitue Shinigame just like Ichigo... but I don't really remember where I heard it... could also be extra stuff for the anime (means: It happend, but isn't correct^^)

That'd certainly explain his relationship with Ryuuken. It'd be awesome if he was a Substitute, then worked his way up to Captainship based on merit. I'd prefer that over his being ex-Royal Guard, since it'd be more consistent.

That said, though, I doubt we'll see him in the Gaiden either way. :/

patedecarne
May 25, 2008, 12:53 PM
Just a little thought:

Shinji and co are vizards now, but not shinigami anymore;

Ichigo is a vaizard, but still remains as a shinigami;

Then, more important than just the transformation, kubo must explain the motivations of Shinji and co. to left SS;

If by way SS was the responsible for the Vaizard's exile, then when SS finds out about Vaizard Ichigo, he'll lost his post as shinigami substitute...

Some things must be worked about this aspect...

gigantor21
May 25, 2008, 01:15 PM
^ I don't think SS would want Hybrids running entire divisions, since I doubt even Yama had seen any before this point. They were probably exiled in a knee-jerk reaction. But seeing as Yama let the Vaizards train Ichigo, and the Vaizards let him go to HM, I doubt both sides have cut ties for good.

rtyd1
May 25, 2008, 01:20 PM
When did Yama let the vaizards train Ichi, i dont remember seeing it in the manga.

gigantor21
May 25, 2008, 01:22 PM
^ He didn't SAY they could explicitly, but we would've known if Yama didn't want Ichigo to interact with them at all. I'm sure he knows they need all the help they can get against Aizen. That's why he let Urahara help the captains get to Karakura (which ended up being very important).

rtyd1
May 25, 2008, 01:34 PM
Your right that Yama is open to help from the Vaizards and Urahara but does i dont think he knows about them after they left SS which may mean he didnt know about Ichigo's training and that Ichigo has an inner hollow

gigantor21
May 25, 2008, 01:53 PM
^ Well, I'm sure he knows they're still around. And they have the RTI monitoring Karakura at all times, so I doubt they'd miss Ichigo's Vaizard powers. The tracing is done through reiatsu--that's how they knew Arrancar were in Karakura as soon as any showed up.

On topic, I can only imagine the type of turmoil we'll see once SS figures out what's happening. They're about to lose 6 captains, the head of the Covert Ops, the leaders of the Kidou Corps, 2 Vice Captains, and the head of the Research Institute IN ONE NIGHT. That's way more military power than the 3 captains they lost because of Aizen's betrayal. Where SS goes from here is anyone's guess.

mdp
May 25, 2008, 02:07 PM
Since ichigo is actually a human and I'm assuming the gotei 13 only use souls as shinigamis (since all of the people in soul society are souls). That is probably why Ichigo is a substitute shinigami, since he had no actuall training just obtained some powers and started swinging that sword around. SO yes it does make sense that yama wouldn't wanna train ichigo, and therefore wouldn't mind if the vizards were training him because they are very similar to him and would be better suited to do the training than soul society individuals.

But then again hacchis barriers are pretty powerful, in that they can keep whats in in, and whats out out (with the exception of orihime!), so i don't see that yama would know whats going on with ichigos vizard training using the RTI monitoring.

patedecarne
May 25, 2008, 02:10 PM
Yes, would be even more critical than the present crisis, more than half of SS's powers will be split this time, Soul Society will be totally vulnerable, with only 6 captains left, and a perfect prey to anything dangerous;

When we think about everything that happened in the past, with the events in this chapter we cannot measure how big will the the final act;

And probably we'll have another row of captains before Byakuya, Gin, Tousen and Komamura; and I'm wondering if there're so many people qualified to become captains: Suddenly, we'll need 7 replacements just now(including 10º division), and I don't know if there's 7 sidekicks in SS, with bankai and crazy reiatsu, just waiting to become captains...

gigantor21
May 25, 2008, 02:38 PM
^ Not to mention that we don't know if Zaraki is the current Kenpachi, or when Isshin was a captain. That'd mean they've replaced every Captain outside the old Guard more than once over the past 200 years--and most of it happened during the Gaiden. That's a lot of shuffling. So they ARE going through Captains like toiler paper, as Shinji said (ironically).

redcometfm
May 25, 2008, 04:26 PM
Perhaps Aizen & co VS Yamamoto & co. will the major death everyone's been saying there's a lack of in this story (but not all of them). Makes me forsee replacements (Kenpachi or Ukitake as the new top brass? [which would coincide with Kenpachi's gaiden/memory-resurgence]). Then, of course, the unworried Mayuri and Byakuya and co could teach Ichigo and the crew about the techniques of SS (ala Kidou) and make new allies (ala Vizards).

Muuugen
May 25, 2008, 05:43 PM
Btw, I think Ichigo was accepted in to the royal guard, just a theorie.
Because he got som special skull-thingy that beeps everytime a hollow is around, just maybe true...it's juts that I can't forget the look of that afro-shinigami that protects that part of karakura town (whene Hirako revealed his tru self for the first time to Ichigo)...it seems to be a very importna/secret thing?....discuss!

zet
May 25, 2008, 05:52 PM
I think that the reason yama doesn't say anything about the nature of ichigo's powers is that he proved his worth n personality in the SS arch, if they saw him as evil still, they would continue to throw captains at him. Don't forget that this incident was delt by the central 46 commity and not by Yamma himself like after SS arch, and that his a big difference.

Seems alot of people want to see Ishin, I bet kubo won't show us anything about him for now, keeping him as the wild card for the karakura fight...it's too early to flesh him out when we have so many characters in this fight already, and now with the gaiden we have three "new" villains that are connected to the vizards and yet we don't know how the karakura fight will role...

someguy0830
May 25, 2008, 05:52 PM
Btw, I think Ichigo was accepted in to the royal guard, just a theorie.
Because he got som special skull-thingy that beeps everytime a hollow is around, just maybe true...it's juts that I can't forget the look of that afro-shinigami that protects that part of karakura town (whene Hirako revealed his tru self for the first time to Ichigo)...it seems to be a very importna/secret thing?....discuss!Uh, no. And another no, because you didn't listen to Ukitake when he handed the thing to Ichigo or to afro-shinigami when he saw it. Afro-shinigami couldn't even tell what it was, much less recognize it as important. The badge identifies Ichigo as a substitute Soul Reaper, nothing more. It is little more than an official license to do what Rukia was forcing him to do anyway.

zet
May 25, 2008, 05:56 PM
Btw, I think Ichigo was accepted in to the royal guard, just a theorie.
Because he got som special skull-thingy that beeps everytime a hollow is around, just maybe true...it's juts that I can't forget the look of that afro-shinigami that protects that part of karakura town (whene Hirako revealed his tru self for the first time to Ichigo)...it seems to be a very importna/secret thing?....discuss!

thas another one of those bleach mysteries, what exactly is that skull thing? it detecs hollows and it also serves as a soul detacher...what ever else it does we don't know yet but ukitake made shore that ichigo took it with him
[hr]

Uh, no. And another no, because you didn't listen to Ukitake when he handed the thing to Ichigo or to afro-shinigami when he saw it. Afro-shinigami couldn't even tell what it was, much less recognize it as important. The badge identifies Ichigo as a substitute Soul Reaper, nothing more. It is little more than an official license to do what Rukia was forcing him to do anyway.

actually ichigo showed the badge to the afro dude and he said that he didnt recognise it as a badge for a substitute shinigami, and that it was weird and all because of the skull

someguy0830
May 25, 2008, 05:59 PM
Same thing. He didn't see it as important. Regardless, Ukitake spells it out plain and clear right at the beginning. It's a substitute Soul Reaper badge. It detects hollows and acts like that funny glove that knocks out souls. There's nothing special about it.

zet
May 25, 2008, 06:11 PM
still dont you think it's weird that a shinigami doesn't recognize it as that? it could have another purpose...just keep a open mind about it, you never know.

mdp
May 25, 2008, 06:19 PM
still dont you think it's weird that a shinigami doesn't recognize it as that? it could have another purpose...just keep a open mind about it, you never know.

No. I DO NOT think its weird that a fodder shinigami does not regonize such a device. He has no need to have a soul-detaching device to fight, while ichigo (a human) does need a soul-detaching device, so its not surprising that a fodder shinigami that I could probably beat up doesn't know what it is or its significance.

The only thing that I find odd is the "cross" on the device that was discussed in the biblioteca i think.

zet
May 25, 2008, 06:23 PM
dude chill out, jeez. as I said just keep a open mind about it, it's not like I'm forcing my view on the subject on anyone. then again we really dont know until its proven otherwise so for now thats what the device is for...if later it turns out to be something else then it does.

mdp
May 25, 2008, 06:43 PM
dude chill out, jeez. as I said just keep a open mind about it, it's not like I'm forcing my view on the subject on anyone. then again we really dont know until its proven otherwise so for now thats what the device is for...if later it turns out to be something else then it does.

Hum I actually changed what I was going to say to make it sound nicer. I see i should have left it how it was when i first wrote it. You can have your opinions on what you think and I can have mine. I was just giving you MY opinion on what you said, since you gave yours :amuse Dont give the keep an open-mind argument as a way to divert people from voicing their different opinions on what you have said
thats just childish.
But hey if that device turns out to be a Royal Guard device (which would mean that the shinigami in the RG are really humans, which has already been proven false in this gaiden) then hey, you were right for keeping such an open mind and I congratulate you! :s
Hummm maybe this sounded a little mean. But I wrote it, so it will be submitted! :darn

seth.vicious
May 25, 2008, 06:45 PM
Ok , my theory on Issin ( with regards his friendship with Urahara ) is that he was RG , he fell in love with Ichigos' mom and because Shinigamis can't retire he used Urahara's gigai to hide himself in the Real World!For me it explains everything.You have to be really big captain to be promoted RG and probably be a captain for a long time: Issin knows ... omg i forgot both the name of the quincy and his dad :blink .. but he knows his dad so he must be really old... just my theory..

narutobleachmanga
May 25, 2008, 06:46 PM
Afro-shinigami is a low rank shinigami, wouldn't be surprise if he doesn't know anything about the badge.

I will still go with my theory and believe 100 will be the last chapter for this gaiden.

zet
May 25, 2008, 07:14 PM
thats the thing mdp, i don't know what it is execpt for what it was shown and I'm not claiming its from the royal guard or some kind of ubber saver device to rule them all, all I said was that it's weird, that's it! The fact that the mangaka wasted some panels on that segment to me doens't make sense if it is just what it was showned to be, like the charm that ishin gave ichigo, it turned out to be more then what it was said to be. What you said about me diverting the subject is absurd since I didn't make any claims what so ever. If you want to be like that, or think this or that, thats you. Everyone as an opinion and any theory is valid as long as its backed by facts, thats my 2 cents on the subject.
[hr]
about afro ninja is low class but he still he could have learned about devices used by shinigami in the academy for example unless what ukitake gave him is unique, and that its the first ever shinigamy substitute badge ever. That would go down with your theories for example.

mdp
May 25, 2008, 08:22 PM
ahh I just cant wait to see what happens when tessai and urahara meet up with everyone. I have a feeling next ch is going to be more fighting of love/rose/hiyori /lisa/hacchi/shinji vs kensei and mashiro with tessai and urahara meeting up with them all at the end. I hope to see atleast 2-3 hollow transformations and maybe a bankai or two.Also if mashiro and lisa's tops get ripped off thats fine, i wouldnt mind.:eyeroll:eyeroll:notrust

zet
May 25, 2008, 08:46 PM
ahh I just cant wait to see what happens when tessai and urahara meet up with everyone. I have a feeling next ch is going to be more fighting of love/rose/hiyori /lisa/hacchi/shinji vs kensei and mashiro with tessai and urahara meeting up with them all at the end. I hope to see atleast 2-3 hollow transformations and maybe a bankai or two.Also if mashiro and lisa's tops get ripped off thats fine, i wouldnt mind.:eyeroll:eyeroll:notrust

crossing fingers for that top being ripped off lol I hope we get more plot development, together with some more revelations to the hollow forms of some of the other vizards

mdp
May 25, 2008, 10:14 PM
crossing fingers for that top being ripped off lol I hope we get more plot development, together with some more revelations to the hollow forms of some of the other vizards

Yah really... Hopefully we get some real explanations on how the hell these transformations are taking place :clap:clap:clap

Shiro-kun
May 26, 2008, 01:22 AM
Im wondering who is behind this , i dont think Urahara had anything to do with it :)

Hopefully next chapter we get more story than fighting :darn

Caligumenthe
May 26, 2008, 02:53 AM
First post.

The gaiden itself needs more plot development than combat... we can save that for when the story returns to Aizen and the battle in Karakura. These chapters are primarily about the process of becoming a Vaizard and Urahara's exile. It answers questions that arise from previous events of the manga, so even if the original time-line for the entire gaiden is increased, it will have served its role. So far, the last chapter has created several more questions rather than answering any of the ones it's supposed to; it's clearly not over yet.

The Hougokyo hasn't been mentioned once within this gaiden, and it's more likely to be explained when Urahara plays his role after the chapters are finished.

wooticus
May 26, 2008, 03:58 AM
the longest inner battle of the ones becoming vizards was hiyori with 69 minutes.. so i think we will see the first vizards in the next 1-3 chapters

bighawke5
May 26, 2008, 04:53 AM
i think the vaizards all got transformed by some entity and were able to control their hollow forms. Now the question is whether ichigo is a real vaizard. His transformation to vaizard was completely different, he started out human and became hollow shinigami at the same time. Also i think urahara was banished because of the vaizards and they gave an excuse of him inventing a bad kind of gigai.

true that and i would bet that that is one reason why he's having the most difficulty to control his inner hollow
as the other ones were shinigamis before transforming and taking over their hollow, he(ichigo) was human and transformed into both at the same time thus as conflict was set inside himself since then...IMO he could go either vaizard or arrancar but the fact that he's fought to take control of his hollow side means his vaizard tranformation is confirmed but then again the hollow told him you gotta keep getting stronger or i'm gonna take over one day..or something along those lines so he must keep getting stronger...more like his inner self needs to get stronger(fighting instinc that zaraki has been trying to tell him to summon) he must strengthen his inner self so that the battle within him is always won by him. he must have a resolve and fighting instinct like zaraki was talking bout to be able to always beat the inner hollow

Asmodan
May 26, 2008, 05:21 AM
Everyone seems to be eager to see ishin! I doubt we'll see him yet. It'll probably all come together towards the end of bleach......... I say this because, explaining Ishin will also explain Ichigos insane power and that will be something left till the very end. I should imagine!

Also, kinda think Urahara is involved in this kensei turning, not directly, but... and to quote him "i should have gone, i never thought it would come to this"! To a degree, he knows whats going on.

Oh, and just a theory, but what if, Hyori got to the scene, found Kensei nearly dead, used the gigai to save him and BANG, Vaizard! ---- Wait, maybe not, that wouldn't explain Mashiro. Forget that.

Silhouette
May 26, 2008, 08:03 AM
the longest inner battle of the ones becoming vizards was hiyori with 69 minutes.. so i think we will see the first vizards in the next 1-3 chapters
thanks you for noting that, I forgot about the longest time it took to control a hollow and we might see that and the vizards being exiled in the next 4 chapters or so.

I am beginning to think that Urahara won't be exiled now. Urahara knows Isshin and Isshin lost his powers 20 years. This is about 80 years after the vizards' event so I am assuming that Urahara stayed in SS after the vizards' event. But again there's always the possibility that Isshin sought Urahara long after he was exiled!!



true that and i would bet that that is one reason why he's having the most difficulty to control his inner hollow
as the other ones were shinigamis before transforming and taking over their hollow, he(ichigo) was human and transformed into both at the same time thus as conflict was set inside himself since then..
I never thought about it this away and I agree with you. This also means that Ichigo is a natural vizard unlike other vizards who had to undergo an artificial transformation
I am not sure if that will have some significance later but it sure makes me want to know why Ichigo is unique in that aspect..maybe it has something to do with Isshin's background


Everyone seems to be eager to see ishin! I doubt we'll see him yet. It'll probably all come together towards the end of bleach......... I say this because, explaining Ishin will also explain Ichigos insane power and that will be something left till the very end. I should imagine!

Also, kinda think Urahara is involved in this kensei turning, not directly, but... and to quote him "i should have gone, i never thought it would come to this"! To a degree, he knows whats going on.

Oh, and just a theory, but what if, Hyori got to the scene, found Kensei nearly dead, used the gigai to save him and BANG, Vaizard! ---- Wait, maybe not, that wouldn't explain Mashiro. Forget that.

I share your doubt about seeing Ishin now, there's around 80 years difference between the vizards' event and Ishin losing his powers. Of course there's still a possibility that Ishin was there then but got more involved later but if he was a captain at that time then we should've seen him in the captain meeting since every captain was called.

About Urahara's quote, the more I think about it the more I find it having a double meaning. "I should have gone, I never thought it would come to this" can mean "I should've gone to control what I created and never thought it would become this dangerous" or can simply mean" I should've gone instead of assuming this unknown situation won't be this dangerous". It's a game that Kubo is playing on the readers knowing that they will suspect Urahara after his conversation with Shinji and after establishing the research facility. And admittedly, Kubo has been successful because despite what I said, there's enough circumstantial evidence that Urahara is behind all of this.

patedecarne
May 26, 2008, 09:14 AM
Yes, that statement is a double edge knife; And let's not forget that Urahara changes his behavior so suddenly with two events:

In the beginning, when Kensei's informer told that some shinigamis had vanished, Urahara didn't show any worries about it, and he would send Hiyori only in the night;

and when he was informed about Kensei and Mashiro, his behavior had changed drastically, at least to me, seems that Urahara "knew" what could happen to Hiyori...

Maybe Urahara was aware from everything, but didn't expect that Captains and VC could be used in the experiments...

zet
May 26, 2008, 09:18 AM
kubo is doing an excellent job at keeping us guessing...on a side note, we haven't seen aizen in a few chapters aswell, cant wait until friday. damn you kuboooooooo

sk.nite
May 26, 2008, 09:24 AM
I am beginning to think that Urahara won't be exiled now. Urahara knows Isshin and Isshin lost his powers 20 years. This is about 80 years after the vizards' event so I am assuming that Urahara stayed in SS after the vizards' event. But again there's always the possibility that Isshin sought Urahara long after he was exiled!!

I never thought about it this away and I agree with you. This also means that Ichigo is a natural vizard unlike other vizards who had to undergo an artificial transformation
I am not sure if that will have some significance later but it sure makes me want to know why Ichigo is unique in that aspect..maybe it has something to do with Isshin's background

I share your doubt about seeing Ishin now, there's around 80 years difference between the vizards' event and Ishin losing his powers. Of course there's still a possibility that Ishin was there then but got more involved later but if he was a captain at that time then we should've seen him in the captain meeting since every captain was called.


We don't know exactly when did Isshin lose his powers. Also, I wouldn't say that he lost them but rather that he gave them up. Take this facts into consideration:
-Isshin knows Urahara.
-Urahara created a gigai that besides being undetectable, turns shinigami into humans.
-In their conversation after the fight with Grand Fisher, Isshin said "I wouldn't blame you if I became weak".
I think there's a high probability that Isshin, for an unknown reason (trying to determine that would be pure speculation since we have no background information about him whatsoever) decided to come (or was forced) to the human world and become a human through the use of Urahara's gigai.

About Ichigo, the reason of his superior raw power is that he was a vaizard since the beginning of the SS arc. Of course the hollow didn't come out until the fight with Byakuya, but he was there as part of Zangetsu's power (Hollow Ichigo said so himself, in case you don't remember).

THETRUTH.com
May 26, 2008, 10:40 AM
I am beginning to think that Urahara won't be exiled now. Urahara knows Isshin and Isshin lost his powers 20 years. This is about 80 years after the vizards' event so I am assuming that Urahara stayed in SS after the vizards' event. But again there's always the possibility that Isshin sought Urahara long after he was exiled!!

I share your doubt about seeing Ishin now, there's around 80 years difference between the vizards' event and Ishin losing his powers. Of course there's still a possibility that Ishin was there then but got more involved later but if he was a captain at that time then we should've seen him in the captain meeting since every captain was called.


Isshin losing his powers and him leaving SS doesnt necessarily have to happen at the same time. Also he would not have detailed infomation on the vizard if he was in squad 0 as they probably have their own priorities sperate from Gotei. It would also mean that he didnt have to come along after Shinji & vizards left. I dont think we will see Isshin in this gaiden. But the way Isshin and Urahara interact seems to me they have a closer than a "he gave me a untraceable humanizing gigai one time" relationship they could know each other before the start gaiden like Tessai and Urahara. Next chapter will surely answer some question.

I know I have been pushing this Isshin Shiba thing but wouldnt Karin and Yuzu be safer in SS than Real World. Also arent they in SS right now along with Isshin, Ryuuken, Urahara, Yoruichi, & Tessai. But can they leave the technique to move around SS. Maybe we will find out soon than we think.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315/05/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315/06/

Did Isshin use soul candy to leave his body? How would he know he had his powers back?(Sorry I know thats random :))

sk.nite
May 26, 2008, 11:10 AM
But the way Isshin and Urahara interact seems to me they have a closer than a "he gave me a untraceable humanizing gigai one time" relationship. Next chapter will surely answer some question.


I didn't mention this in my previous post, but I assumed that they knew each other before Isshin came to the human world. I thought it was implied in my theory.

How did Isshin know his powers were back? Because he started using a normal gigai.

THETRUTH.com
May 26, 2008, 12:19 PM
Sorry for not being clear sk.nite but that part was directed at the quote in your post. It was in reference to the "80 year difference" comment that Silhouette made.

xPm
May 26, 2008, 12:49 PM
What I wonder is, considering he said his wife died 20 years ago (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/07/ he regretted his weakness for 20 years), who's ichigo, yuzu and karin's mom?

GPZrag
May 26, 2008, 01:02 PM
We don't know exactly when did Isshin lose his powers. Also, I wouldn't say that he lost them but rather that he gave them up. Take this facts into consideration:
-Isshin knows Urahara.
-Urahara created a gigai that besides being undetectable, turns shinigami into humans.
-In their conversation after the fight with Grand Fisher, Isshin said "I wouldn't blame you if I became weak".
I think there's a high probability that Isshin, for an unknown reason (trying to determine that would be pure speculation since we have no background information about him whatsoever) decided to come (or was forced) to the human world and become a human through the use of Urahara's gigai.

About Ichigo, the reason of his superior raw power is that he was a vaizard since the beginning of the SS arc. Of course the hollow didn't come out until the fight with Byakuya, but he was there as part of Zangetsu's power (Hollow Ichigo said so himself, in case you don't remember).
OR maybe Ichigo insane power is because he is "the real thing"... like the Grand Fisher once he found out about Ichigo's Father... see it for yourself... http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/187/09/

someguy0830
May 26, 2008, 01:25 PM
What I wonder is, considering he said his wife died 20 years ago (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/07/ he regretted his weakness for 20 years), who's ichigo, yuzu and karin's mom?It's just poorly translated. In context, he saying, "If there's anything I've truly regretted in the last twenty years, it was failing to save Masaki on that night."

Tsukisama
May 26, 2008, 01:40 PM
Well how else can u explain Isshin knowing everything. Heres what i think, i think that shinji didnt recognize his raitsu because back then Isshin maybe wasnt as strong. Maybe once the vizards and urahara were banished his power grew and grew.So once Isshin regained his powers in KK town to fight Grand Fisher no one recognized it, only urahara.

There are plenty of ways Kubo could explain Isshin's knowledge of the current events and Shinji's ingorance of Isshin's reiatsu like Isshin being in the royal guard or Urahara having kept Isshin in the loop. Given what little information we have on Isshin, it would be unwise to jump to any conclusions or rule something possible out completely.


I'm just wondering when Yoruichi will get involved. Will she catch up with them before they get to the site? Or help Urahara escape when the exile is put in place? And if it's the second choice, will we get to see it?

When Yamamoto told Yoruichi to stand by for further instructions, I was not surprised. As leader of the Covert Ops, I think that she might be sent on some sort of secret mission like to investigate and eradicate the disturbance. My guess is that Yoruichi will show up in time to be stopped by Urahara, who will convince her to help him in defiance of SS's orders.

Yoruichi will definitely help Urahara escape. I think that Soi Fon mentions this at the beginning of her exchange with Shihouin during the SS arc. If the gaiden lasts for about five more chapters, then I could see Urahara's flight into exile with Yoruichi and Tessai being the last thing in the gaiden before the plot returns to the present.


There are still 4-5 chapters left, I thought the Gaiden would only last 8 chapters (via Gaiden FAQ) guess the info was erroneous, well more chapters would be great since that will give room for more info and explorations. :)

The information in the FAQ is correct actually. Kubo did say in the interview that he planned to write the gaiden for about two months, equaling about 8 chapters. As it is the only information we have regarding the length of the gaiden so far, I have left it as it is. After this week's chapter, I will update the gaiden to say that Kubo has seemingly gone beyond his original estimate.


The way its going there is a great chance that Kubo will turn this mini arc into a full volume which consists of around 9-10 chapters.

It certainly seems that Kubo will keep going with this gaiden, but I would imagine for only 3-5 more chapters. With 8 chapters of gaiden already, Kubo has almost already written a volume's worth.


The chances that I'm wrong is patethically big, but... why is everyone expecting Isshin will be in this Gaiden? I have in mind, that he is a substitue Shinigame just like Ichigo... but I don't really remember where I heard it... could also be extra stuff for the anime (means: It happend, but isn't correct^^)

The reason why so many people think that Isshin will appear in the gaiden boils down to wishful thinking. Isshin is a very mysterious, powerful character with a past obviously connected to SS. Learning more about Ichigo's mysterious father is one of most Bleach readers greatest Bleach-plot-related desires, up there with information on Kenpachi Zaraki's zanpakutou. Realistically, Isshin more than likely will not appear in this gaiden, since arriving by this late point in the gaiden would result in him either being a cameo or seeming far too contrived and out of place.

Isshin could be a substitute shinigami. The reason why the royal guard theory is more accepted is because Isshin was wearing what looked to be the remnants of captain's robe and heavily implied that he was at one time a captain. Since substitute shinigami are not enlisted in the SS army, they cannot become captains.


Just a little thought:

Shinji and co are vizards now, but not shinigami anymore;

Ichigo is a vaizard, but still remains as a shinigami;

Then, more important than just the transformation, kubo must explain the motivations of Shinji and co. to left SS;

If by way SS was the responsible for the Vaizard's exile, then when SS finds out about Vaizard Ichigo, he'll lost his post as shinigami substitute...

Some things must be worked about this aspect...

I have also long wondered what SS's reaction will be when Ichigo's vizard status is discovered, but now I don't think that it will matter that much with the current affairs. SS is in a crisis and will not turn away such a powerful asset. (Perhaps, if the manga continues after Aizen's defeat, then SS will dismiss or even persecute Ichigo once his services are no longer needed.)

Plus, I would find it hard to believe that SS does not know about Ichigo being a vizard by now, given how many times he has used his vizard abilities (i.e., the mask) with SS forces present.


On topic, I can only imagine the type of turmoil we'll see once SS figures out what's happening. They're about to lose 6 captains, the head of the Covert Ops, the leaders of the Kidou Corps, 2 Vice Captains, and the head of the Research Institute IN ONE NIGHT. That's way more military power than the 3 captains they lost because of Aizen's betrayal. Where SS goes from here is anyone's guess.

If the theory about Ginrei kicking the bucket during the vizards' hollow rampage is correct, then it will be 7 captains/ :hbunny

I think that what SS will do is fairly clear. The Gotei 13 captain positions will be filled when qualified shinigami pass the captain qualification test (since the captain-killing method would not be applicable and the recommendation-approval method would require at least nine captains). Since bankai is one of the things on the qualification test, it will take at least some time before the positions get filled.

I assume Aizen and Mayuri ascend in the near future to captain rank. We know that Soi Fon trains hard to attain all of Yoruichi's former positions. Gin and Byakuya become captains around 50 years before the present. Factor in Komamura and Tousen also becoming captains at some point (Hitsugaya too but the 10th spot really is not being discussed here), and we see that the captain problem is resolved.

As for the empty Kidou Corps ranks of captain and lieutenant, we don't know how one rises through the ranks in this division. In fact, we don't even know if the positions have been filled in the present, but I am sure that the Kidou Corps will have found some way to cope as well.


Ok , my theory on Issin ( with regards his friendship with Urahara ) is that he was RG , he fell in love with Ichigos' mom and because Shinigamis can't retire he used Urahara's gigai to hide himself in the Real World!For me it explains everything.You have to be really big captain to be promoted RG and probably be a captain for a long time: Issin knows ... omg i forgot both the name of the quincy and his dad :blink .. but he knows his dad so he must be really old... just my theory..

That pretty much is the prevalent theory about Isshin.

One thing, though: Quincys are basically special spiritually gifted humans. They seem to age at a human rate, and thus Ryuuken (Uryuu's father) is probably not that old (late 30s to mid 40s).


First post.

The gaiden itself needs more plot development than combat... we can save that for when the story returns to Aizen and the battle in Karakura. These chapters are primarily about the process of becoming a Vaizard and Urahara's exile. It answers questions that arise from previous events of the manga, so even if the original time-line for the entire gaiden is increased, it will have served its role. So far, the last chapter has created several more questions rather than answering any of the ones it's supposed to; it's clearly not over yet.

The Hougokyo hasn't been mentioned once within this gaiden, and it's more likely to be explained when Urahara plays his role after the chapters are finished.

Welcome to MH, Caligumenthe. :hbunny

I agree that the gaiden should remain focused on plot development over fighting (on which Kubo has done a marvelous job thus far) and that the Hougyoku will likely be introduced later when Urahara gets more involved with the situation.


How did Isshin know his powers were back? Because he started using a normal gigai.

Actually, it is never stated that Isshin lost his powers. Urahara only says that he has not been in shinigami form for 20 years (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/06/). So, Isshin probably could have decided to use his powers whenever he liked.

sk.nite
May 26, 2008, 01:41 PM
OR maybe Ichigo insane power is because he is "the real thing"... like the Grand Fisher once he found out about Ichigo's Father... see it for yourself... http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/187/09/

Remember that this line is translated, and as such, it varies according to the translator's interpretation. I believe that originally what he meant was that direct descendants of shinigami are stronger (the term he used was "true blood" I think. Very Harry Potter-ish :amuse). Check a version done by another group of this chapter.

patedecarne
May 26, 2008, 02:18 PM
I almost forgot about it, the hougyoku; this rescue act seems to be the last act with Urahara as captain (and I'm really believing that), then probably he already created the hougyoku. I don't know if was stated in some past chapter that Urahara created it on SS, but given the fact Aizen knew about it, then it's very likely it was created on SS;

So, there's s possibility to see it in the gaiden; and talking about that, we know that Aizen has some knowledge about it, and I'm sure he didn't see after Urahara's banishment, and by this, I think Aizen will be in the last chapters; there's no other chance to see it besides this crisis, I think;

zet
May 26, 2008, 04:33 PM
thats thing isn't it, is there some one using some other kind of method to create the vizards or are urahara/someone related to him using the hougyoku to create them...we still don't even know who's going around experimenting, hopefuly we get to find out next chapter with some more plot n less fighting.

Shiro-kun
May 26, 2008, 05:00 PM
thats thing isn't it, is there some one using some other kind of method to create the vizards or are urahara/someone related to him using the hougyoku to create them...we still don't even know who's going around experimenting, hopefuly we get to find out next chapter with some more plot n less fighting.

I have my suspicions wrap around Aizen or Mayuri , however it could be an another character (already introduced or not ) behind the scenes

Silhouette
May 26, 2008, 07:16 PM
We don't know exactly when did Isshin lose his powers. Also, I wouldn't say that he lost them but rather that he gave them up.


Thank you for correcting me. Yes Ishin didn't lose his powers but he gave them up. However, this did happen 20 years a go for sure Reference Ch 188 (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/albums/Bleach-Chapter-188/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch188-06.jpg)
So there's 80 years difference since the backward chapters correspond to years (100 years a go) and Ishin gave up his powers 20 years a go. If you remeber Hitsugaya's background story was about 15 years ago, this is 5 years after Ishin gave up his shinigami powers and this is probably why Hitsugaya didn't recognize Ishin.




About Ichigo, the reason of his superior raw power is that he was a vaizard since the beginning of the SS arc. Of course the hollow didn't come out until the fight with Byakuya, but he was there as part of Zangetsu's power (Hollow Ichigo said so himself, in case you don't remember).

I know that, thank you. My point was the vizards were forced to become vizards but Ichigo was one naturally. I was wondering why Ichigo was a natural born vizard unlike the others and if this had something to do with Ishin's background. Unless of course it was due to Urahara cutting Ichigo's soul chain forcefully making it corrode.

llamapie
May 26, 2008, 07:17 PM
I have my suspicions wrap around Aizen or Mayuri , however it could be an another character (already introduced or not ) behind the scenes

Meh, I don't think its Aizen, my guess its someone else that we may know of.. But who's to say. All we know is that all these guys leave SS at some point. Whether they're banished or they left on their own accord will be explained soon.

kunai-knight
May 26, 2008, 07:30 PM
I'm still not understanding how Ichigo's mom could have died 20 years ago, yet there are still two small kids (who look like 11-14) who are supposed to be her daughters? Plus that would make ichigo way over 20, but he's still in high school? :s Very confuzzled

Tsukisama
May 26, 2008, 07:34 PM
I'm still not understanding how Ichigo's mom could have died 20 years ago, yet there are still two small kids (who look like 11-14) who are supposed to be her daughters? Plus that would make ichigo way over 20, but he's still in high school? :s Very confuzzled

Masaki did not die 20 years ago. Like another user already pointed out, the wording in one of the translations is just a bit confusing. What Isshin is saying is that during the twenty years that he has lived as a human (from when he last used his shinigami abilities to that present moment), the thing he most regrets is Masaki's death.

Also, I think Ichigo is supposed to be in middle school (although he and his classmates definitely look like high schoolers). The same thing with Kagome in InuYasha being in middle school at the start of the series but looking far too mature.

kunai-knight
May 26, 2008, 08:07 PM
Thanks. I read the other user's post but it wasn't as clear to me as your translation was.

Its possible that we'll see her again though isn't it? I thought it was stated in the manga that when humans die they are able to become spirits which go to SS, and if they need to eat etc then they are capable of becoming shinigami or something like that.


OR Ichigo's mom could have been a shinigami and both she and Isshin fell in love and escaped to the real world using Urahara's gigai, so that they could marry and have a family away from soul societies' restrictions. I think that'd be a fitting way for Urahara to get kicked out of SS.

Tsukisama
May 26, 2008, 08:32 PM
Masaki could be a plus in Rukongai. Masaki's soul may have been eaten by Grand Fisher after he drowned her, in which case I would think she would probably enter SS after Grand Fisher's death.

Either way, I doubt that we will see her in spirit form unless she becomes relevant to the plot again. Ichigo and Isshin (and probably the girls too) have their closure now, and Masaki's character does not need to resurface.

bladehappy
May 26, 2008, 09:28 PM
Masaki could be a plus in Rukongai. Masaki's soul may have been eaten by Grand Fisher after he drowned her, in which case I would think she would probably enter SS after Grand Fisher's death.

Either way, I doubt that we will see her in spirit form unless she becomes relevant to the plot again. Ichigo and Isshin (and probably the girls too) have their closure now, and Masaki's character does not need to resurface.

I'm pretty sure Grand Fisher ate her soul. He has that lure that apparently knew Masaki's last thoughts as she died.

Coolnerd89
May 26, 2008, 09:41 PM
Thank you for correcting me. Yes Ishin didn't lose his powers but he gave them up. However, this did happen 20 years a go for sure Reference Ch 188 (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/albums/Bleach-Chapter-188/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch188-06.jpg)
So there's 80 years difference since the backward chapters correspond to years (100 years a go) and Ishin gave up his powers 20 years a go. If you remeber Hitsugaya's background story was about 15 years ago, this is 5 years after Ishin gave up his shinigami powers and this is probably why Hitsugaya didn't recognize Ishin.




I know that, thank you. My point was the vizards were forced to become vizards but Ichigo was one naturally. I was wondering why Ichigo was a natural born vizard unlike the others and if this had something to do with Ishin's background. Unless of course it was due to Urahara cutting Ichigo's soul chain forcefully making it corrode.

I kinda get what you're talking about. Ichigo faught the Vizard right off the bat when he turned. somewhat natural if you will. Since the shinigami were already spiritual souls at the time they got turned, I guess they wouldn't be as strong. Then again, we saw what happened when Ichigo hollow form attacked Hiyori, and kicked her ass lol. But the rest of the team took him down real quick. Now that really doesn't mean much because we know that only 4 of them were captain class, but that aside, I think Ichigo's still stronger. As so what is going to happen next chapter....
If they want to wrap things up within the next chapter, than I believe when Urahara get's there, only like Shinji, Hiyori and Hatchan will be shinigami and the rest would have turned. Don't ask me how, I'm too tired to think but yeah. I think that's whats going to happen. Shinji will probably turn before Hiyori, or in some way of protecting Hiyori. I think the only thing that could make Urahara get banished or something is that he watches Hiyori turn or something and then he does some epic magic trick and teleports the whole vizard gang into the undetecable gigais and sends them off to the real world. Huzza!!!!!! Time to sleep...

Saifi
May 27, 2008, 02:21 AM
just a thought , what if what we are seeing with kensei and mashiro are not their vaizard form but rather hollow forms, where Aizen could be trying to create strong hollows by turning captain level shinigami. But then along comes urahara with his hogyoku and dissolves the barrier between hollow and shinigami , giving kensei , mashiro + other shinigami awareness of who they are and they become vaizards.

xmikeyxlikesitx
May 27, 2008, 02:34 AM
I don't think Kurosaki Masaki is a plus, I think she is a normal human.

Why?

If both parents were spirits, Ichigo would be raised with a lot of gigais. (Unless gigai[s plural?] age.)

I think he's half human, half spirit.

Fortisdiablos
May 27, 2008, 03:25 AM
A human becomes a plus when they die. It doesn't make her not human.

kunai-knight
May 27, 2008, 05:58 AM
Masaki could be a plus in Rukongai. Masaki's soul may have been eaten by Grand Fisher after he drowned her, in which case I would think she would probably enter SS after Grand Fisher's death.

Either way, I doubt that we will see her in spirit form unless she becomes relevant to the plot again. Ichigo and Isshin (and probably the girls too) have their closure now, and Masaki's character does not need to resurface.

The only how I'd really see it make sense for Masaki to return would be if the series has a considerable length to it still left. To introduce her as a fightable character (which would be the only way that interests me right now) this late in the manga would be slightly pointless as she'd be pretty weak, unless she's like a kenpachi lol. But if the manga had time to continue they could eventually show her strong and going up against some powerful persons.

But i agree she doesnt really add anything to the plot anymore, unless of course ichigo breaks down in the future with guilt of his momma's death etc. In which case i do think we'll see her again but only at the end of the manga as a reunion kind of thing.

Tsukisama
May 27, 2008, 07:00 AM
I'm pretty sure Grand Fisher ate her soul. He has that lure that apparently knew Masaki's last thoughts as she died.

Thank you for that. I thought that Grand Fisher ate her soul, but I was in rush and it was not something important enough for me to search through the manga for. :)


I don't think Kurosaki Masaki is a plus, I think she is a normal human.

Why?

If both parents were spirits, Ichigo would be raised with a lot of gigais. (Unless gigai[s plural?] age.)

I think he's half human, half spirit.

Like Fortisdiablos said, I was referring to Masaki's current state. Now that she has died (and Grand Fisher is also dead), she may be a plus living in Rukongai.


The only how I'd really see it make sense for Masaki to return would be if the series has a considerable length to it still left. To introduce her as a fightable character (which would be the only way that interests me right now) this late in the manga would be slightly pointless as she'd be pretty weak, unless she's like a kenpachi lol. But if the manga had time to continue they could eventually show her strong and going up against some powerful persons.

But i agree she doesnt really add anything to the plot anymore, unless of course ichigo breaks down in the future with guilt of his momma's death etc. In which case i do think we'll see her again but only at the end of the manga as a reunion kind of thing.

If Masaki is ever reintroduced, she most probably would not be any sort of fighter. She would be a support character or a damsel-in-distress (please Kubo, not another one :blink). Like you suggested, seeing Masaki at the series' finale would help to make for a fitting and touching end to Bleach.

zet
May 27, 2008, 10:03 AM
I have my suspicions wrap around Aizen or Mayuri , however it could be an another character (already introduced or not ) behind the scenes
I'm with you there, I donno about aizen as it would be abit to obvious but if the hogyoku was already created I can see Mayuri using it to test it, that kind of would make sense with what aizen said about urahara seeing how dangerous it was and then putting a barrier on it. how does someone know if something is dangerous before it's given some use? Then again it could be someone we don't know of yet, and these events come to inspire aizen to do what he did for example. This gaiden only opened up more questions than given us answers so far...

Ðveiz
May 27, 2008, 10:10 AM
thats the thing mdp, i don't know what it is execpt for what it was shown and I'm not claiming its from the royal guard or some kind of ubber saver device to rule them all, all I said was that it's weird, that's it! The fact that the mangaka wasted some panels on that segment to me doens't make sense if it is just what it was showned to be, like the charm that ishin gave ichigo, it turned out to be more then what it was said to be. What you said about me diverting the subject is absurd since I didn't make any claims what so ever. If you want to be like that, or think this or that, thats you. Everyone as an opinion and any theory is valid as long as its backed by facts, thats my 2 cents on the subject.

about afro ninja is low class but he still he could have learned about devices used by shinigami in the academy for example unless what ukitake gave him is unique, and that its the first ever shinigamy substitute badge ever. That would go down with your theories for example.

Well it was told that it was a tradition from ancient times to give Shinigamis who are still not offically dead, a badge. "Something of thoes lines".

What makes me curious and all wondering is what he said "from ancient times" who els in history has done the same as Ichigo? Are there more half human half shinigamis from the past? Or Humans becomming shinigamis without dieing first? Unlike Ichigo because his core is mixed (it seems).

In that case, if it's true that ichigo is Vizarded because his half human half shinigami, thus why he has a hollow side, then the offical Vizards cannot be the first of thier kind, and it really seems like they are.

This so rais freeaking many questions if you think about it, and I wonder if it's just a bad translation or it Tite really made a hint here...

zet
May 27, 2008, 01:39 PM
@Ðveiz
hmmm don't remenber that being said about the badge, gonna have to read it again myself

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/182/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/182/15/

looks like ukitake said that it's a seal of approval for people accepted as beneficial to SS, the fact that ishida is suspicious of it kinda of tells me theres more to it then that, but until it's shown to be something more we kind of have to go with that.

Ðveiz
May 27, 2008, 01:57 PM
took the liberty to search for it for you :)

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/182/14/

Though Ukitake didn't say it had to be a shinigami õ.0 could've been another translation though...

At any rate, how can a shinigami appear out of no where if they didn't come throw SS from dead or nobel families? :/ Perhaps it's just extreamly rare? Also were the Vizards the first of thier kind? If other Shinigamis did reproduce with humans, woulnd't there be other Vizards around than the ones from the Gaiden?

Edit: Oh shoot, we did it the same time :P Yeah well perhaps it does another ability or funktion... But the best I can think of would be a tracking device... I'd imagine old Yama-Jii wanting to monitor Ichigo ...

rtyd1
May 27, 2008, 01:59 PM
Check out the next page Ishida notices something i think http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/182/15/

zet
May 27, 2008, 02:12 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/182/15/

heres more info on it. why would it be dangerous for non shinigami to have it? theres alot more to it then it meets the eye, I guess we are gonna find out later rather then soon. it might be because of ichigo's powers, or a monitoring device, or something like a barrier in case he fights so that the town doesnt get completly obliterated but then again that wouldn't constitute any danger like ukitake said....could it be used as some kind of weapon? to many questions and no anwsers...I'll just leave it at that.

bladehappy
May 27, 2008, 02:13 PM
So, just another theory here, but could Mayuri be using that cloak that hides spiritual pressure to attack these guys. He really isn't around in the past couple chapters, and I think he would send Mayuri instead of Hiyori because of research purposes. So I think Urahara is aware of the situation they're in.

zet
May 27, 2008, 02:18 PM
yeah he could, like anyone else that works or as access to the lab/cloak...so far theres 3 "shadows" and how the story as progressed it kind of makes us think it's either urahara (because he created the hogyoku and like to get ppl to do what he wants without asking), aizen (mainly because we know he's a bad guy in the future and wanted to experiement with hydrids) and mayuri (because of where he was and for what we know of him as a scientist).

Ðveiz
May 27, 2008, 02:34 PM
I don't think Mayuri is part of it, as a matter of fact the proof is very fragle, but here goes...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.6/02-03/
It illustrates they're not playing a role in the plot but simply beeing present in the past accedent which will evole thier future.

But turning the coin, you could be right about Mayuri, afterall Hiyori didn't get sent out on the spot when the message arrived, and Urahara fellt a sleep giving plenty of time for Mayuri to play in.

However if it is him, he'd have to do it without getting cought, and plotvice I think it's very poor imho unless Tite makes something totally different out of it. Well he is good at that though :p


http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/182/15/

heres more info on it. why would it be dangerous for non shinigami to have it? theres alot more to it then it meets the eye, I guess we are gonna find out later rather then soon. it might be because of ichigo's powers, or a monitoring device, or something like a barrier in case he fights so that the town doesnt get completly obliterated but then again that wouldn't constitute any danger like ukitake said....could it be used as some kind of weapon? to many questions and no anwsers...I'll just leave it at that.

Might be because humans will be in trouble once outside their bodies :blink
Thinking back, as you perhaps also did apply in your words, Tite kinda likes gadgets and special items... We've seen a few alrady.

- The type that dispatches a spirit (Rukia's glove / Uraharas sword / Ichigos gadget).
- The type that can change humans spiritually (Orihime's capture).
- The type that either tracks or summons a shinigami to the person in danger (Kon).
- Quincies Cross (Manifesting spiritual power making it accesable to control).
- It's possible that the one gadget Ichigo has could be a gadget not only beeing usefull for him, but also tracks or analyses on him.
- A tracking device for Hollows outside the monitor system of SS (Ichigo's gadget).
- What els can be thought of?

I'd doubt Ichigo has this gadget with him inside HM though, it would be constantly on alarm :P

zet
May 27, 2008, 03:03 PM
i know what you mean by mayuri been an off shot mainly because we know how he his in the future, samething goes for urahara yet people still dought his integraty. my view is that it wasn't urahara or mayuri, i''m leaning more towards aizen or someone else is involved in the hollow experiments.

Ðveiz
May 27, 2008, 03:23 PM
Aye, but if it is Aizen then i'd set my money on Gin and someone who still could remain in SS in the present time. I very much doubt Tousen in a situation like that :blink Innocent Blood shred :darn But that third person might be very interesting, he could still be around in SS in the present time, and it'd make sense that Aizen wants to keep a close eye on SS while he pushes his plans ahead, and it'd make another fatal blow on SS perhaps revealt when they're on their knees or a situation like that.

Introducing 3 new badass charectors this soon seems kinda disapointing imho... either we wount see them now, or it'll be a disapointment I belive. Especially if they're less important than Aizen, which is preatty hard to beat when he's about to destroy the world :headbang

mdp
May 27, 2008, 05:06 PM
Okay, ponder this. What if the 3 shadowy figures are none other than hikifune with 2 of her new Royal Guard friends trying out THEIR new hogyoku device, which urahara then finds and soul society blames him/or he takes credit for making it since he is the chief r&d person. The reason for this is urahara could not destroy it, (if you make create something, you usually know how to break it down and destroy it), this is why im thinking he didnt create it and that is why he hides it instead. This is just a theory, and chances are it wont happen! What do you guys think

zet
May 27, 2008, 05:13 PM
it's plausible, a creator not being able to destroy his creation is a bit weird...kubo as kept us in the dark for a long time, even with this gaiden we still don't know some of the fundamental aswers we were hoping for...anything is possible at this point.

Wire
May 27, 2008, 05:17 PM
After this Arc is over it's back to continuous fight scenes...how depressing...how lame...

mdp
May 27, 2008, 05:59 PM
it's plausible, a creator not being able to destroy his creation is a bit weird...kubo as kept us in the dark for a long time, even with this gaiden we still don't know some of the fundamental aswers we were hoping for...anything is possible at this point.

haha that it is! :D

drakend
May 27, 2008, 06:05 PM
After this Arc is over it's back to continuous fight scenes...how depressing...how lame...
Go read Suzuka or Love Hina then.

Castriota
May 27, 2008, 06:12 PM
After this Arc is over it's back to continuous fight scenes...how depressing...how lame...

you don't wanna see the badass showdown between soul society and hueco mundo as well as those other groups like the vizards and urahara and co.

Wire
May 27, 2008, 06:19 PM
It's not that these events don't interest me, Im just afraid of to many super long fights, involving no strategy at all in a row.

I should have been more specific.

Castriota
May 27, 2008, 06:23 PM
you think when we get back to the present
its either gonna start with the aizen and co. vs the soul society or are they gonna show the ichigo vs ulquoirra fight

Coolnerd89
May 27, 2008, 06:29 PM
Dude... I just thought of something.
Why does Kensai's weapon look so damn different from his shinigami form to his human/vizard form???
Damn Kubo!!!

*edit*
Oh wait... That's just a normal dagger...
Oh I did wanna add something though, earlier I said something about Kensai and his second in command controling the hollow then being sent with the rest, but I reread and noticed that each of those guys had time. Here is a reference.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/222/03/
So maybe Urahara just surpressed their powers compleately in a gigai....

zet
May 27, 2008, 06:30 PM
I think we're gonna get more answers when we get back to KT then we got with the gaiden, I see the gaiden as being a set up for the answers, it raised more questions then it gave answers so far, unless the next chapter/s come about explayning whos behind all of this.

I think it's gonna show the Ichigo v Ulqui and then kubo is gonna switch mid fight just to leave us on the edge. I can't wait to see what aizen has up his sleeve.

Tsukisama
May 27, 2008, 06:32 PM
Dude... I just thought of something.
Why does Kensai's weapon look so damn different from his shinigami form to his human/vizard form???
Damn Kubo!!!

What do you mean? His shikai looks like a combat knife in both instances. :confused

godofthesunn
May 27, 2008, 10:59 PM
Well I was rereading the chapters where shinji put ichigo in a hollow state.. Thats somewhat important I think. For him to just use some sort of technique to induce a hollow. I wonder if that happened to the rest of them.. I really cant wait to see how they invoke the hollowificaion of shinigami.

Devil-buster
May 27, 2008, 11:49 PM
Well I was rereading the chapters where shinji put ichigo in a hollow state.. Thats somewhat important I think. For him to just use some sort of technique to induce a hollow. I wonder if that happened to the rest of them.. I really cant wait to see how they invoke the hollowificaion of shinigami.

Shinji did not invoke the hollow state....he just knocked ichigo unconscious so ichigo can confront his inner hollow....in his inner world..

Mr. Esse
May 28, 2008, 01:50 AM
here's a thought......

ever since back when aizen, gin, and tousen were lifted from the ground into the hollow world after the whole battle with SS, I've been wondering.....SS has the Gotei 13 and the big boss with the long white Go-T right...so the hollow world must of had a similar thing before aizen and co right ? like some sort of master evil boss up there...because Aizen had to have made a deal with someone in the hollow world to get where he is now..I'm thinking its whoever stabbed kensei and turned all these people into hollows,

I really don't think Aizen is the top dog here..cuz think about it, there are full out hollows..vizards/espada (hybrids), then the captains, if there is to be some sort of balance here, there has to be a super powerful hollow which is behind all of this.

someguy0830
May 28, 2008, 01:56 AM
Hollows aren't like shinigami. They're predators. They live to hunt. There's no need for a class society in such a situation. Hollows kill because they must, and most are no more intelligent than animals. Menos have classes, but they're a sub-group, and the normal hollows are their food. There's no need for hollows to have a boss, because they, unlike shinigami, don't have some higher calling to answer to.

zet
May 28, 2008, 07:08 AM
I don't think that Hueco Mundo as a society mainly because they leave in fear and the ones that have a conscious want to eat the others stronger then them to evolve. The place I can see other then SS that could have one would be Hell, we only were shown the gate of Hell once so there could be alot coming from there, imagine that aizen is from there r something. Shinigami that have to be in hell (to take care of the place are like outcast or something) and he came back for som crazy revenge lololol thats streching it I know.

munafn
May 28, 2008, 07:53 AM
Just a thought about Isshin.Well he lost his Shinigami powers 20 years before the main story line and speculation is that he may have used Kisuke's untraceable gigai which transforms shinigamis to human, is it possible he did that to hide the hougokyu? Correct me if im wrong on anything because right after rukia came to the real world and met Ichigo and left, considering the timeline of maybe 3-4 months i guess, Isshin started to regain his lost powers.
that could be some kind of connection. any one else think so? comments maybe?

zet
May 28, 2008, 07:59 AM
well they don't realy say when isshin regained his powers back, what I got from reading it again was that by getting of of the gigai he regained some of his powers but maybe not all of them straight away. It is possible that urahara could of used isshin's gigai to hide it n then switch it to rukia's but theres no evidence of that in the manga so far. still it's a possibility.

munafn
May 28, 2008, 08:04 AM
yea..thats what i said, just speculation and no hard evidence to back anything up at this point except for the fact that we know that either he lost his powers or voluntarily gave it up and decided to come back into the scene after 20 years...or something like that ^-

zet
May 28, 2008, 08:15 AM
like you said it's pretty much open at the moment, for all we know aizen isn't the big bad guy we think he is, maybe theres a traitor among the SS crew or someone is pulling the strings from behind the scenes and that person could have something to do with the fact that Isshin left SS to become a human...the sky is the limit at the moment lol ^_^

munafn
May 28, 2008, 08:32 AM
i think it may pretty much boil down to the vizards being accepted by some at SS and hated by some..so there is a conflict of interest or an argument which forces all those transformed to leave..Maybe kisuke wanted to experiment further and supported them but ppl like yamaji, the kuchiki's etc didnt agree to be experimenting on hybrids and that its too dangerous. should be interesting..ofcourse i could be completely wrong about all this but still fun to think ^^

zet
May 28, 2008, 09:15 AM
actually it's not down to them, remember that the central 46 are the ones that give out the orders and not the Gotei 13, if Yama didn't do anything about ichigo after assuming power I can see him doing the same to the other captains turned vizards, but if the 46 did then he had to follow the rules and banish them.

munafn
May 28, 2008, 10:51 AM
yea i guess you're right about that. That was the basis of what i meant tho, There was disagreement and conflict. Central 46 may have put kisuke in charge of the experimentation for the vizards and the vizards probably couldnt take any more and kisuke agreed to help them escape or smthn.
aak KT u just keep building up the suspense!