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View Full Version : What happened to Ichigo's hyper-speed?



sk.nite
May 24, 2008, 10:51 PM
After the fight with Byakuya, Ichigo's "I can deflect 1 million scattered blades in 0.05 seconds" speed hasn't helped much. You could say that the enemies leveled up, so their speed would be evenly matched. But following that reasoning , the power gap between him and the enemy would be big, since speed is suposedly his strong point (assuming the enemy is an all-around type of fighter, or that at least that the speed matches closely the overall level).

In the first fight with Grimmjow, this refutation would be true seeing how the fight developed until the point Hollow Ichigo butted in. Against Yammi, hmm, it was probably a difference in sheer amount of reiatsu and the speed didn't come into play (it would have been interesting at that point seeing how he would have fared against a released Yammi). Dordoni was outclassed too, and against Ulqui there was no contest.

Then there's the second fight against Grimmjow. I wasn't expecting such a close match in this one (am i the only one who thinks that power wise, the espadas release aren't worth much?) but this is where I found the biggest inconcistency. If their overall levels are similar, then shouldn't Ichigo's speed be much higher than Grimmjow's? It could be speculated that Grimmjow's release also increased his speed greatly, but it would have been mentioned or at least hinted (besides being awfully convenient). And finally, against Nnoitra, he was exausted and couldn't cut him, but he could have at least aimed for the soft spots, like Kenpachi did. But I won't go deeply into that, it's not related to the issue in question.

The point I'm trying to make is that Ichigo obtained this potentially sick abilty, but it hasn't been desicive in any fight. Personally, I didn't like any of Ichigo's fights (why would I be writing this otherwise?) except the one vs. Byakuya. All the others seemed full of bullshit spouting and without much thought put into them to me. Also I would have liked that Ichigo developed some sort of new attack while he was doing his vaizard training. It would have made his recent fights more interesting.

Anyway, if you think if there is some contradiction or inconcistency in my reasoning or I blatantly missed something tell me. Yeah, I dare you bastards, try to prove me wrong. :smile-big

Zeus-Tails
May 24, 2008, 10:53 PM
Ichigo was hit with a speeding ticket last month. 600 bucks! Can you believe it? He's trying to avoid a repeat.

gigantor21
May 25, 2008, 01:31 PM
LOL at the last sentence. :p

And I think you mean the THIRD fight with GJ if you're talking about his release. You mean the fight in Hueco Mundo, right?

Anyway, I fully agree that TZ was neutered too quickly. At the very least, Ichigo should be faster than everyone below Ulquiorra--much faster--even if he can't draw blood. Otherwise, what's the point of his Bankai? The badass transformation sequence? Kubo hasn't presented anything more than that. And keep in mind, Byakuya was able to keep up with Zomari, who supposedly has the fastest Sonido, so all the other Espada should be slower than both of them anyway.

I also agree that his style needs way more polish, and depth.

Oblivion
May 25, 2008, 03:03 PM
I also agree that his style needs way more polish, and depth.

and this is exactly why zangetsu is needed.

well i think ichigo's next battle will decide it all.

gigantor21
May 25, 2008, 03:48 PM
^ Agreed. Or, alternately, he could think more outside the box like Shirosaki--using hand-to-hand, throwing the sword, SOMETHING. He was doing all that stuff just before his fight with Byakuya; I don't get why he stopped. But I do agree that Zangetsu will be the key, not Shirosaki, since all the mask has given Ichigo is unstable raw power.

Also, how's having "the fastest Sonido" any good when you don't use it with your release (which would've ensured Zomari's victory)? And what difference does it make when Stark can teleport? I swear, all those meaningless declarations are annoying.

sk.nite
May 25, 2008, 06:42 PM
Also, how's having "the fastest Sonido" any good when you don't use it with your release (which would've ensured Zomari's victory)? And what difference does it make when Stark can teleport? I swear, all those meaningless declarations are annoying.

It's a tough deal losing your legs for one sick kidou ability :amuse.

I don't know if Stark has that ability, maybe it has something to do with Las Noches. Remember that Tousen used a teleportation technique in SS (that very very gay artistic gimnastics one)?

crono
May 26, 2008, 01:53 AM
I thought about this too, but the sad answer is that this is a manga. If Ichigo was as fast as he was first portrayed when he first got bankai, he would be TOO badass now. Typical shounen manga = power up is badass at first, then it becomes commonplace. The move is now useless, and he will have to use a new move (i.e. bankai is now useless and he always has to go vaizard mode).

sk.nite
May 26, 2008, 09:32 AM
And I think you mean the THIRD fight with GJ if you're talking about his release. You mean the fight in Hueco Mundo, right?


You're right. For some reason the two fights in the human world merged as one in my memory, even though I re-read Bleach like 3 times. Yep, my memory it's that bad :imslow

gigantor21
May 26, 2008, 09:42 AM
I thought about this too, but the sad answer is that this is a manga. If Ichigo was as fast as he was first portrayed when he first got bankai, he would be TOO badass now. Typical shounen manga = power up is badass at first, then it becomes commonplace. The move is now useless, and he will have to use a new move (i.e. bankai is now useless and he always has to go vaizard mode).

But that's just it. It's commonplace, yes, but the way that move is implemented is so random.

Byakuya completely owned Zomari, and Zaraki didn't need Shikai to beat Nori, yet Ichigo fought evenly with both of them in SS. A lot of excuses have been thrown around to compensate for that. But we shouldn't have to make up explanations for things that should be obvious--especially fights in a shonen series.

It'd be fine if that neutering happened to everyone, but it affects some people and not others. And when it happens to Ichigo, Kubo makes up for it by bending the plot--again, forcing us to either come up with excuses or just throw up our hands and give up.

sk.nite
May 26, 2008, 12:17 PM
The main problem here is that Kubo leaves a lot of things unexplained. In the storytelling this can make it all the more interesting, but in the fights is just annoying.

patedecarne
May 26, 2008, 01:47 PM
Regarding Stark, I'm thinking that what he used to capture Orihime was Sonido, and being the case, Ichigo and average captains couldn't match with such powerful Sonido, they're pretty much done in a fight with Stark;

Zomari with the fastest sonido was really weird: in a release, an arrancar should be able to keep its unreleased abilities, and just like Gig said, Byakuya easily matched Zomari, then, by logic, Byakuya is more fast than any espada, even Ichigo; My guess is that Kubo is trying to give unique abilities to every espada, like Nnoitra, with the strongest skin, AAroniero with the ability to absorb a countless number of hollow, or szayelApollo, with the Gabriel ability; unfortunately, such ability to Zomari was a bad choice, because I'm sure higher espadas can match with his speed easily;

And about the topic, yes, Kubo is making a big inconsistency about his more important ability while in Bankai(probably the only one, hehe). If I must say some explanation about it, I would say that such speed only impressed us in the beginning, before Byakuya got used with it, so, Byakuya was caught in surprise, but only in a short period of time, because some time later, Ichigo was imprisoned in Senken Senbonzakura, only being saved by shirosaki;

Another curious detail is the so called hyperspeed only played a big role in Byakuya's fight, after it, everytime Ichigo used Bankai was to increase his power, and the initial definition of his Bankai was just to increase his speed, not his strength;

Seems that now, the concept of ultra mega master speed is no more; And in the upcoming fights, with so powerful enemies, like ulquiorra, I just cannot see Ichigo overpowering him with great speed...

Unless Kubo give him a new move based on pure speed, something like a vortex or tornado, where even Ulquiorra couldn't defend;

gigantor21
May 26, 2008, 02:27 PM
^ I think one big problem is that Kubo overestimated his ability to present speed.

GJ is able to keep up with Ichigo, Ulquiorra is faster, and Zomari and Stark are (supposedly) faster still, but only Zomari and Stark actually LOOKED faster. In fact, everyone besides Zomari, Yoruichi and Stark use Shunpo/Sonido the same way, so it's hard to tell who's faster than who unless they're fighting each other. It's the same with destructive power--we've yet to see anything beyond Ichigo-Zaraki, where whole buildings were being destroyed, and I doubt we will.

jasaczek
May 26, 2008, 05:33 PM
I think that best part is:
Ichigo vs Zaraki - halfbeaten Ichigo had a tie with Zaraki without eyepath (Ichigo in Shikai)
Ichigo vs Byakuuya - tie (ichigo bankai, help from shirosaki)
And after those fight where his power went?? His speed and power? It vanished??? :/

someguy0830
May 27, 2008, 12:52 AM
As has been pointed out earlier, Zangetsu got shoved out of the way when hollow Ichigo popped up. When he comes back, and Kubo would be shooting himself in the foot if he doesn't, Ichigo will likely get back to some of that much more impressive ass-kicking from the good-old days.

Silhouette
May 27, 2008, 02:10 AM
I agree with someguy0830

It seems the banaki power-including speed- isn't showing unless Ichigo uses his hollow so I am guessing that Shirosaki is still in control of Zangetsu.

Consider the following during Ichigo’s battles with GJ:
1- The 1st time Ichigo fought GJ, he didn’t have a mask and his bankai speed wasn’t enough to catch up with unreleased GJ who even blocked Zangetsu with his bare hand.
2- when Ichigo pulled his mask for 10 seconds in the 2nd time he fought with unreleased GJ, his banaki enabled him to out-sped unreleased GJ
3- In the third fight, GJ didn’t wait after Ichigo pulled his mask and immediately released because he got a taste of true the speed of banaki in the 2nd fight. Banaki-Ichigo was fast enough to dance around with released GJ and Zangetsu who was blocked by GJ’s bare hand in the 1st fight was able to cut through GJ’s strongest attack in the 3rd fight.

Most people think that Ichigo got stronger and faster after becoming a vizard because of the hollow powers but when thinking about it, shouldn’t banaki speed and black GT be related to Zangetsu himself instead of Shirosaki? Shirosaki doesn’t shoot black GT from his hands but from Zangetsu and the insane speed is related to banaki not to Shirosaki!
So I am assuming that Shirosaki is now controlling Zangetsu therefore Zangetsu’s true power (bankai) didn’t show unless the mask was pulled.

This doesn’t mean that the only advantage of going vizard is being able to use Zangetsu fully. Pulling a mask gives the user a very important hollow trait and that is a solid body (e.g like when Ichigo was able to withstand five direct missile attacks from GJ).

gigantor21
May 27, 2008, 07:14 AM
^ Well, we have to remember a few things:

A) Shirosaki is the one who created the black GT in the first place. He himself said Ichigo was just copying him, after using that badass skyscraper-sized version, and Ichigo called it "his move". As we've seen several times now, it's an integral part of his reperetoire, but he can no longer use it effectively without the mask.

B) The speed is something that should hold with or without the mask anyway. Wasn't Ichigo running circles around Byakuya without it? It'd be one thing if the mask just increased Ichigo's power, but he clearly moves faster with the mask on. The problem is that Kubo slowed Ichigo down just to show off the mask's power, which makes TZ look useless.

The mask is a steroid. Ichigo can't fight anyone without it because his enemies are freaks of nature. Thing is, without insane talent, a high school kid with steroids still can't beat a professional athlete. And even then, talent isn't always enough. Ichigo needs to learn how to use Zangetsu better.

patedecarne
May 27, 2008, 11:26 AM
Ichigo at this point is almost a noob in fighting aspect: of course he has GT, but it's useless now; but he doesn't a pattern, some experience that other fighters have;

like gig said, without mask, Ichigo can't defeat anyone, he's just an average captain without it, and we know that by this time, fighting without mask is almost suicide;

And more Zangetsu is what Ichigo needs right now, if he could be able to develop his fighting skills with Zangetsu, he'll become very strong even without the mask;

The hollow mask then would just implements his powers, but wouldn' t be his salvation every time he fights...

Homura
May 27, 2008, 04:08 PM
I've also thought of this before, what happened to his speed?

I'd like to support Silhouette's post of it being sealed off with Zangetsu. Thinking about it, Ichigo has TWO powers (Shinigami and Hollow). There might've been a delicate balance to his power but since he didn't train properly, the scale tipped off as he was trying to draw out more power than what he has left(shown in a lot of cases i.e., against Zaraki, against Byakuya), therefore weakening his Zanpakuto and strengthening his hollow. Probably why his Hollow form gives him an insane boost (It was also indirectly stated that Zangetsu assimilated to his Hollow, Shirosaki, which could be taken as he reinforced Zangetsu before and now it is the other way around). Therefore, when he goes Ban Kai, whatever's left of Zangetsu, is the only increase in speed that he gets.

In regards with Zomari, I think the "fastest" sonido refers to his ability to create multiple images. An ability that only he can do (that has been shown anyway). Think of it as Yoruichi being the Goddess of Flash but this doesnt mean that Yamamoto's Flash Step is inferior to hers, just means that she developed many many viable techniques to it. As for Stark, it's a bit strange to be honest, if he's that fast then I dont think anyone can stand up to him. I bet there's something to it.

Also it seems that Ichigo has stages to his power now. Normal (Shikai) -> Ban Kai -> Masked, unless it is shown that he can to use the mask without being on Ban Kai or it is stated somewhere that he could, then that speed was controlled somehow by Kubo to prevent an uber Kurosaki (though he didnt present it properly). I mean just imagine super uber reflexes + super uber speed multiplied by his hollow powers, he would practically roflstomp every single espada at that rate. I mean we've seen the increment of his powers with the mask on. He'd practically one shot Ulquiorra.

Silhouette
May 27, 2008, 07:57 PM
B) The speed is something that should hold with or without the mask anyway. Wasn't Ichigo running circles around Byakuya without it? It'd be one thing if the mask just increased Ichigo's power, but he clearly moves faster with the mask on. The problem is that Kubo slowed Ichigo down just to show off the mask's power, which makes TZ look useless.


I will explain why I think Ichigo's bankai -including speed- cannot be fully utilized now (not previously like how it was against Byakuya) without the mask and this is because Shirosaki is the one who's got the real hold of Zangetsu now

Looking back in past chapters you can see how Zangetsu's control shifted from Ichigo to Shirosaki:

a)When Zangetsu took Ichigo to his inner world after Zangetsu was broken by Kenpachi, he gave Ichigo a nameless sword (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-110/%5Bmanga-rain%5Dbleach-ch110-14.png.php) to fight Shirsaki with. Shirosaki had NO SWORD back then and Shirosaki used Zangetsu for the first time (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-110/%5Bmanga-rain%5Dbleach-ch110-16.png.php). Then we saw how Zangetsu gave Shirosaki his real sword later in that event.

b) However, Shirosaki already had Zangetsu when Ichigo faced him for the 2nd time ch 218 pg 7 (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-218/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch218-07.jpg.php) & pg 8 (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-218/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch218-08.jpg.php). And in that event, Shirosaki was the one who was so fast that he suddenly appeared before Ichgio and stabbed him kinda like Ichigo did to Byakuya.

c) Hiyori was able to break "Zangetsu" (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-216/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch216-10.jpg.php) before Ichigo faced his hollow for the 2nd time!

Masked Hiyori is strong but cracking Zangetsu was a bit too much. It seemed as though Zangetsu was as brittle as a nameless sword (e.g the sword that Ichigo got from Zangetsu in point (a)) unless Zangetsu’s power wasn’t controlled by Ichigo then. And if Shirosaki is the one who's controlling Zangetsu now then Zangetsu's real power won't show unless Shirosaki comes in the picture.

To summarize it all in one sentence, Shirosaki to Ichigo: I am Zangetsu (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-218/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch218-09.jpg.php)

After all it's a theory only but it's based on actual events and it explains why Ichigo's bankai speed and power suddenly dropped from dancing circles around Byakuya (before Shirsosaki came in the picture) to not being able to do so without his mask. Hope it makes sense.

gigantor21
May 27, 2008, 08:33 PM
^ That'd actually make sense, though.

If Shirosaki was behind ALL of Ichigo's problems in battle--not just losing control--then everything we've seen would make much more sense, including Ichigo-GJ III. It'd be as though he was using one of the fake swords from his Bankai training; a mere fragment of Zangetsu's real power, and one of the bad ones at that. It'd be badass if that's what Shirosaki did.

One problem: if it's true, then why would Kubo not attack the issue directly? It'd clear a lot of things up, and it's very important--not to mention how it'd do wonders for Ichigo's rep. And either way, he STILL doesn't look ready to beat Ulquiorra right now.

Silhouette
May 27, 2008, 09:20 PM
One problem: if it's true, then why would Kubo not attack the issue directly?

I know that Kubo's style doesn't provide explanations until later and he gives hints instead and I too wanted him to make an exception this time and provide an explanation for Ichigo's banaki and hollow. But won't you agree though that he has set up everything for the explanation like Shirosaki having Zangestu and saying that he is Zangetsu?

If you ask me, Kubo's style got advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that it keeps people guessing and the story interesting and the disadvantage can be people getting confused. But I guess it's ok since he does whole chapters later dedicate to bring everything together.



It'd clear a lot of things up, and it's very important--not to mention how it'd do wonders for Ichigo's rep.

Yes I agree, Ichigo's image would've been much better if an explanation was given.



And either way, he STILL doesn't look ready to beat Ulquiorra right now.

We already had a conversation regarding that so I will just leave it there ^^

Raizen
May 28, 2008, 03:42 PM
I will explain why I think Ichigo's bankai -including speed- cannot be fully utilized now (not previously like how it was against Byakuya) without the mask and this is because Shirosaki is the one who's got the real hold of Zangetsu now

Looking back in past chapters you can see how Zangetsu's control shifted from Ichigo to Shirosaki:

a)When Zangetsu took Ichigo to his inner world after Zangetsu was broken by Kenpachi, he gave Ichigo a nameless sword (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-110/%5Bmanga-rain%5Dbleach-ch110-14.png.php) to fight Shirsaki with. Shirosaki had NO SWORD back then and Shirosaki used Zangetsu for the first time (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-110/%5Bmanga-rain%5Dbleach-ch110-16.png.php). Then we saw how Zangetsu gave Shirosaki his real sword later in that event.

b) However, Shirosaki already had Zangetsu when Ichigo faced him for the 2nd time ch 218 pg 7 (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-218/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch218-07.jpg.php) & pg 8 (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-218/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch218-08.jpg.php). And in that event, Shirosaki was the one who was so fast that he suddenly appeared before Ichgio and stabbed him kinda like Ichigo did to Byakuya.

c) Hiyori was able to break "Zangetsu" (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-216/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch216-10.jpg.php) before Ichigo faced his hollow for the 2nd time!

Masked Hiyori is strong but cracking Zangetsu was a bit too much. It seemed as though Zangetsu was as brittle as a nameless sword (e.g the sword that Ichigo got from Zangetsu in point (a)) unless Zangetsu’s power wasn’t controlled by Ichigo then. And if Shirosaki is the one who's controlling Zangetsu now then Zangetsu's real power won't show unless Shirosaki comes in the picture.

To summarize it all in one sentence, Shirosaki to Ichigo: I am Zangetsu (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-218/%5BM7%5DBleach-ch218-09.jpg.php)

After all it's a theory only but it's based on actual events and it explains why Ichigo's bankai speed and power suddenly dropped from dancing circles around Byakuya (before Shirsosaki came in the picture) to not being able to do so without his mask. Hope it makes sense.
That was very thought out and easy to understand, props to u.

I believe that had ichigo had his usual powers that he had in SS, his fight in HM would be much easier. Maybe this is a way to show that the captains in SS are still superior to the espadas

darkbass
May 28, 2008, 07:57 PM
my theory is that TZ simply rearranges ichigo's amount of reiatsu to a concentrated form meant for speed boost, so the bigger his reiatsu, faster he goes.... the present enemies have reiatsus that even captains have a hard time reaching, so i believe that even without a rearrangement like TZ, they can get faster than even ichigo can get with bankai and his normal reiatsu, so enters the mask, i think it was stated that all it did was "give a huge boost in reiatsu", increasing his overall power and especially TZ's speed, since more reiatsu means more speed....

Silhouette
May 29, 2008, 07:32 AM
That was very thought out and easy to understand, props to u.

I believe that had ichigo had his usual powers that he had in SS, his fight in HM would be much easier. Maybe this is a way to show that the captains in SS are still superior to the espadas

Thank you

I agree with you that Ichigo would've had a much better deal if he had Zangetsu with him instead of Shirosaki despite the fact that Ichigo's body becomes more solid when he has a mask.

Although espadas are physically stronger, Byakuya and Mayuri showed that captains are indeed superior in terms of skills and tactics.


my theory is that TZ simply rearranges ichigo's amount of reiatsu to a concentrated form meant for speed boost, so the bigger his reiatsu, faster he goes.... the present enemies have reiatsus that even captains have a hard time reaching, so i believe that even without a rearrangement like TZ, they can get faster than even ichigo can get with bankai and his normal reiatsu, so enters the mask, i think it was stated that all it did was "give a huge boost in reiatsu", increasing his overall power and especially TZ's speed, since more reiatsu means more speed....

This is what I thought too but looking at past events shows that Zangetsu is controlled by Shirosaki (Ichigo's hollow) and so Ichigo's banaki is useless unless Shirosaki is out too.

Richo
May 30, 2008, 03:08 PM
One problem: if it's true, then why would Kubo not attack the issue directly? It'd clear a lot of things up, and it's very important--not to mention how it'd do wonders for Ichigo's rep. And either way, he STILL doesn't look ready to beat Ulquiorra right now.

i suspect that shirosaki will drag ichigo to his inner world again when ichigo starts fighting ulquora, shirosaki himself said not to die untill the nxt time they meet for an additional power up for ichigo his mask.
uptil now the vaizards have acces to their hollow mask and the cero attack (and probably some other Cero related attack made custom to every vaizard). Ichigo is bound to power up in his fight against ulquora since ichigo with his mask will probably barely be enough to handle ulquiorra unreleased and lets not start on him releasing.
If the theory about ichigo using a fragmented sword given by shirosaki on purpose (by doing this shirosaki is pushing ichigo to the edge off his potential and power), knowing shirosaki he will take the first chance he gets to take ichigo over and what chance. Ichigo always lacked confidence and resolve when things get abit difficult and shirosaki knows that and probably uses this against ichigo. In order to take full control of ichigo he needs to break ichigo his mind down and at the last minute when ichigo is about to die he will come and kill ulquiorra and showing ichigo how superior his hollow powers realy are.
This is purely based on the theory if shirosaki actualy given ichigo a weaker sword then his own to make it look like ichigo is weak.

onto a other topic the sonido/shunpo thing:
when ukitake and kuouraku were fighting Yamamoto, kuouraku used 1 single flash step that coverd atleast half a mile to brin his luitant to safety, Stark his teleportation was probably the same. Ichigo may have masters shunpo partialy but still not fully upto the degree off the old captains and the top espada (those have probably masters flash steps 100% while ichigo probably only has 80%)

kkck
June 01, 2008, 08:29 PM
I has been said that ichigo isnt good at controlling his reiatsu, so I think it is because of this that his speed isnt constant. Ulquiorra says that ichigos riatsu varies a lot, to the point of it being very small and then sudenly stronger than ulquiorra's. I think the amount of reiatsu ichigo uses in each battle changes according to his mood or any other external circumstance which is why his own strenght isnt constant.
I also think that ichigo's power is affected by zatgetsu's aparent disapearance and his inner hollow always trying to get control over ichigo.

dreamzsai
June 02, 2008, 10:17 AM
I dont really like how Kubo displays Ichigo's speed aspect. The only times we see his hyper-speed working is when Kubo tries to show a "one-sided Ichigo PWNS" fight. In any other situations, or "big" fights, his speed is almost next to nothing. Ichigo's Bankai now is acting like a Shikai of any other Shinigami out there, while he's Vaizard form acts like his Bankai, in other words: "Ichigo can't be competitve without the Mask on"

I kinda like the theories of how Shirosaki is affecting Zangetsu's powers, but i hope Kubo does some "explaination" in the manga, rather than letting us guess around.

Eddy01741
June 03, 2008, 09:51 PM
I has been said that ichigo isnt good at controlling his reiatsu, so I think it is because of this that his speed isnt constant. Ulquiorra says that ichigos riatsu varies a lot, to the point of it being very small and then sudenly stronger than ulquiorra's. I think the amount of reiatsu ichigo uses in each battle changes according to his mood or any other external circumstance which is why his own strenght isnt constant.
I also think that ichigo's power is affected by zatgetsu's aparent disapearance and his inner hollow always trying to get control over ichigo.
Okay, first post (well, i just wander around here a lot reading the threads, but I like the discussion, so i decided to join in).

I think you could be absolutely right with the amount of reiatsu depending on Ichigo's mood. I mean, think about how he was so strong against Byakuya. It was because he was god damned pissed off that Byakuya not only let his sister die, but even defended the decision. He had lots of reasons to hate Byakuya, he was the one that took away his initial shinigami powers, he was the one that took Rukia back to the SS (after Renji had been defeated in the real world), he was being all aristocratic as usual (y'know, stating that Ichigo could never defeat him and all), and most importantly, that he was letting his own sister die just because he believed in following the rules. Therefore, his emotions were heightened, and very possibly, his reiatsu was greatly heightened as well.

Another good example is when Ichigo is fighting Yammy when the Espada are first introduced. He immediately shows his great power by easily cutting off Yammy's arm (and he's supposed to have very tough skin), but then, he goes into emotional distress (well, basically, I would compare it to having like a migraine, or a really bad headache), his reiatsu drops to very low levels (well, for a guy that has beaten two of the better captains i would say). Thus giving Ulquiorra the conclusion that Ichigo couldn't control his reiatsu, and therefore, was not a threat to Aizen.

Now, some of you may say that Ichigo must have been very emotional during his fight with Grimmjow, but really, I doubt it was as much as when he was facing Byakuya. Yes, Ichigo was trying to save Orihime, but he flat out told us that his biggest intention for coming to Hueco Mundo was to defeat Grimmjow and Ulquiorra. Plus, the way that Grimmjow was "treating" Orihime wasn't like how Byakuya was treating Rukia, Grimmjow even beat those jealous Arrancar B*tches up (they idolize Aizen so much it seems), while Byakuya literally believes that his sister should be executed because she staye din the real world too long (or something along those lines).

ryanzokuken
June 04, 2008, 03:50 AM
i think that yes, Ichigo's bankai does mainly boost his speed a tremendous amount, but it of course must also boost all his "stats" by at least a little.

huge upgrade to speed, minor upgrades to everything else.

but i think it's also important to remember; as prodigious and shockingly powerful Ichigo is, and as amazing as his power growth rate is for only having been a shinigami for such a short time, he has, in fact, only been a shinigami for a short amount of time.

he can fight on level with captain class shinigami and even espada now as he has grown, because of his amazing and bizarre growth rate and power. BUT, on the whole, all around, overall, etc etc, the captains and espada and such that he is able to match are still generally more powerul and better shinigami than he is. they've been doing this for years and years and they have trained and grown a lot and gained much experience.

Ichigo's bankai increases his speed, and it makes him super fast. much faster than when just using shikai. but rather than assume it boosts his speed beyond that of others whose zanpakuto do not have speed increasing traits, or those who are not particularly known for being super fast, understand that it probably does something more along the lines of just bringing him to their level. and as someone said earlier, the first time he used it against byakuya, the animation and appearance of his speed was probably exaggerated and made so apparent so that we could see and understand that what it did was make him super fast. and, as was also already mentioned, byakuya's surprise was more in that Ichigo was able to go so fast, not necessarily in that Ichigo was faster than himself.

without his bankai, Ichigo would not be able to keep up with Byakuya. sure, he says that he can now "see all Byakuya's moves", but he wouldn't be able to survive with just his shikai of course.

but then, we also have to remember that Byakuya is someone who is known for and prides himsef in being faster than most shinigami. and at the level he is at when he fights Zomari, he says something about using the techniques Youruici tought him. seems like he's now using his shunpo like she does, whereas before she was smoking his ass. so his speed is much greater than it was before. he's moving faster than in the SS arc.

also, look at Ichigo's shikai. it's damn powerful for a shikai, his strength and reiatsu and such are all higher than people like Renji and Ikkaku and those he faught with it. his reatsu even matches up with Kenpachi's. but his shikai is also a giant, heavy, cumbersome blade. it probably slows him down a bit. if his shikai gives him power and strength on captain level, but leaves him slower, it makes plenty of sense that his bankai would fix that issue and give his speed a huge boost and bring him up to a more even level.

also as a final note, as far as the GJ fight goes, GJ matching his speed doesn't bother me. look at his release form. he's a cat-man. i would expect a cat-man hollow to be quite fast and agile, as cats are.

wow, sorry for the super long post.

MaydayParade
June 12, 2008, 03:02 PM
I know exactly how to answer this question. Do you recall, near the end of Ichigo and Byakuya's fight? Ichigo began to slow down. When Ichigo fights, he throws his reiatsu around like he's a quarterback and it's a football. Reiatsu isn't limitless. When he starts to run low on it, he slows down.

So after fighting Grimmjow, he didn't have enough reiatsu to even cut Nnoitra, let alone fight Telsa or anyone else. Basically, Ichigo is a powerhouse and he doesn't know it. He is easily captain-class if you judge on Reiatsu alone, but Captains know how conserve their reiatsu so they don't waste their massive power like Ichigo does.

kkck
June 12, 2008, 03:31 PM
If ichigo isnt as fast as befre i thnk it would be fr the followng reasons:

1.- Ichigo has extremely poor reiatsu control and uses it in a very inneficcient manner.

2.- Remember when ichigo fought for the frst tme againts zaraki? In that fight ichigo used his own power and ol man zangetsu´power and thats how he managed to fight at the captain level fr the first time.
Later on we find out that hollow ichigo has been growing in power and now the ol man lives inside him intead of hlollow ichigo living inside zangetsu which means as hollow ichigo said "He is zangetsu". Considerng all of what we have seen about hollow ichigo and hs desire to take over i dont think he is helping ichigo as old zangetsu used to do, so ichigo probably fights in a condition similar to the one he had before his fight with zaraki.

sk.nite
June 12, 2008, 03:48 PM
I know exactly how to answer this question. Do you recall, near the end of Ichigo and Byakuya's fight? Ichigo began to slow down. When Ichigo fights, he throws his reiatsu around like he's a quarterback and it's a football. Reiatsu isn't limitless. When he starts to run low on it, he slows down.

So after fighting Grimmjow, he didn't have enough reiatsu to even cut Nnoitra, let alone fight Telsa or anyone else. Basically, Ichigo is a powerhouse and he doesn't know it. He is easily captain-class if you judge on Reiatsu alone, but Captains know how conserve their reiatsu so they don't waste their massive power like Ichigo does.

I understood everything except the part about football :) I know a sport with that name but it doesn't have quarterbacks (WTF is a quarterback?)

Tsukisama
June 12, 2008, 04:05 PM
I understood everything except the part about football :) I know a sport with that name but it doesn't have quarterbacks (WTF is a quarterback?)

He is referring to the American game known as "football". (The "football" you are probably thinking of is called "soccer" in the US.) In the US football, the quarterback is the person who throws the ball to his teammates. I am not entirely sure where he was going with the simile, but I think he was just saying that Ichigo "throws around" (or uses excessively and also recklessly) his reiatsu, nothing deeper.

sk.nite
June 12, 2008, 04:54 PM
He is referring to the American game known as "football". (The "football" you are probably thinking of is called "soccer" in the US.) In the US football, the quarterback is the person who throws the ball to his teammates. I am not entirely sure where he was going with the simile, but I think he was just saying that Ichigo "throws around" (or uses excessively and also recklessly) his reiatsu, nothing deeper.

Thanks for that clarification, but I was being sarcastic about the part of not knowing "american football". I just don't get how a game that is played mainly with the hands can be called football.

Btw, I still don't understand that analogy. How does a dude throwing balls around have anything to do with Ichigo sucking at controlling reiastu?

Tsukisama
June 12, 2008, 05:09 PM
Btw, I still don't understand that analogy. How does a dude throwing balls around have anything to do with Ichigo sucking at controlling reiastu?

It doesn't. The term "throwing around" can mean to frequently use something recklessly. Quarterbacks are known for throwing a lot and for good distances. There is no deeper meaning to the reference than that. I could say a similar sentence with a different simile for the same effect: [I]Ichigo wastes his reiatsu like a litterbug. (The term "litterbug" is an American term for someone who makes a lot of litter or leaves their trash lying around; I don't know if the term is international.) Here, "litterbug" has nothing to do with Ichigo's reiatsu; it is only used to qualify how much he litters. The same thing goes for the football simile.

ryanzokuken
June 14, 2008, 01:16 PM
I know exactly how to answer this question. Do you recall, near the end of Ichigo and Byakuya's fight? Ichigo began to slow down. When Ichigo fights, he throws his reiatsu around like he's a quarterback and it's a football. Reiatsu isn't limitless. When he starts to run low on it, he slows down.

So after fighting Grimmjow, he didn't have enough reiatsu to even cut Nnoitra, let alone fight Telsa or anyone else. Basically, Ichigo is a powerhouse and he doesn't know it. He is easily captain-class if you judge on Reiatsu alone, but Captains know how conserve their reiatsu so they don't waste their massive power like Ichigo does.

Hollow Ichigo stated that Ichigo had been slowed down because he was "being crushed by his own spirit energy".

but that still fits with your reasoning. due to his poor reiatsu control, lack of experience, and lack of training with his bankai, his reiatsu was unchecked and out of control, weighing down on even himself like gravity.

Devil-buster
August 05, 2008, 01:38 PM
Actually the theory of ichigo losing his spped because hirosaki took control of zangetzu makes sense...a little....but now sice hirosaki is stuck in the depth of his soul shoulsnt zangetsu be back.....

But the part abt ichigo being so seriously injured that he lost his ability to use bankai seems not plausible....since ichigo was always healed by orihime....and orihime's ability alows everythin to be brought back to the state before anything happened to it....rejecting damage....therefore ichigo's injures in the byakuya fight should be all gone...long before....

So it is either a blunder on kubo's part or just the fact that his oponents became stronger.....grimjjow had an ability very similar to ichigo's....his release increased his speed and strength....so it could have been an even match up......

also I dont think zomari is the fastest espada....it was probably an illusion in his own mind.....like noitora...I mean just look at stark's speed...even ichigo and zaraki had no idea where he went....they thought he dissapeared

Eddy01741
August 05, 2008, 02:11 PM
Well, stark might just have the longest sonido like that of ukitake and shunsui, super long shunpo.

Anyways, I think it was kubo's blunder. Kubo made ichigo so fast taht there were like 50 clones of him circling around byakuya, but then even with is mask on (which should increase power and speed) he can't even beat out grimmjow in speed. And Grimmjow should be slower than zommari, and byakuya could keep up with zommari.

gigantor21
August 05, 2008, 02:37 PM
^ About that clone thing...

Isn't that basically Gemelos Sonido? Yeah, they can't attack and confuse the enemy, but we know Ichigo can at least leave afterimages. Maybe Kubo slowed Ichigo down to make Zomari look more special. :/

Flight-47
August 05, 2008, 03:49 PM
Against Grimmjow, Ichigo tried to use his extremely fast speed on Earth in their first meeting but failed. So he most likely didn't bother with it anymore. When fighting Grimmjow the 2nd time, he didn't need his speed. 3rd time he was most likely using it, but Grimmjow was matching his speed.

Against Ulquiorra he didn't get a chance to use it.
So Ichigo just hasn't gotten a good chance to use the ability is all.


He did use it against Dordonii, we can assume, when he went Bankai a barely dodged him trying to attack Nel.

Onomatopoeia
August 05, 2008, 04:14 PM
About the whole hyper-speed thing well here's my two cents.

Zangetsu is Zangestu and Hichigo is Zangetsu. But they are two different sides of Zangetsu. Hichigo's side allows Ichigo greater control and reach into his Reitsu banks it also allows Ichigo to go Vizard but cancels his super speed. Zangetsu on the other hand does the exact opposite.

Now then as someone eariler mentioned their is a balance between the two. The more Ichigo use's Zangetsu the higher his speed goes but the more Ichigo uses his Vizard form then that makes him go much slower but allows him to use more Reitsu and thus harm GJ in later battles. The balance in SS was cleary more toward Zangetsu thus allowing super speed. But in HM and Arrancar arc the Hichigo began to get more strength and with Ichigo's reliance on his Vizard form the speed began to decrease but his Reitsu and his Shikai's power increased.

Their is always a clear relation in Ichigo's speed and his Vizard form. If Ichigo were able to better control his Shinigami form then it's possible that he could use both superspeed and his Vizard mask then it's possible that he could beat Ulquiorra.

Of course I could be way off here and it's just Kubo and his plotholes at work.

Devil-buster
August 05, 2008, 05:38 PM
Well, stark might just have the longest sonido like that of ukitake and shunsui, super long shunpo.

Anyways, I think it was kubo's blunder. Kubo made ichigo so fast taht there were like 50 clones of him circling around byakuya, but then even with is mask on (which should increase power and speed) he can't even beat out grimmjow in speed. And Grimmjow should be slower than zommari, and byakuya could keep up with zommari.

Well the fact that stark can take longer steps in that short time only means he is faster......speed = distance/time.....if u cover greater distance in shorter time, u r faster......also ichigo and kenpachi didnt see him...even if he just moved a large distance they should have been able to see him unless his speed was that great....shunsui has the same ability his speed is far great...that he is able to travel large distances in a small time....shunpo is called flash step not flash jump....

And there is no proof that grimjow was slower than zomari.....byakuya eventually caught up to zomari's speed...that is wy he released....also grimmjow's release made him faster and agiler.....and he was able to keep up with ichigo's hollow form...which dorondoji(pivaron espada) couldnt even see.....so grimmjow is extremely fast....and his rank is above zomari.....also ichigo is faster than byakuya...and just because zomari said he is the fastest espada doesnt mean he is.....he probably has never seen people like stark fight at their fullest......its just like noitora who thought he was the strongest.....it is based on their own ego.....

I personally dont think ichigo's super speed has gone down.....his oponents has just gotten stronger and faster....also there would be no point in ichigo goin bankai just to use kuroi getsuga....it is the same as regular getsuga tensho except it is slightly stronger and its path can be controlled.

Stone
August 07, 2008, 09:21 AM
there's the option that he learned from his fight against Byakuya, that his body can't handle it and so he fears a repeat where he Runs out before the battle is over.

Or maybe his resolves haven't been as strong as they were then

Aonsaithya
August 11, 2008, 01:54 AM
Kubo has been weakening Ichigo for a long time. When the hollow dissolved after Ichigo's fight with him in the inner world, he (hollow) said "If you really intend to have control over my power...Then, until I decide to appear the next time...Do your best not to die...Take care, got it?" Implying that Ichigo does not have full control over the hollow side's power, and as Shirosaki is Zangetsu and vice versa, this would mean that while he can't control Shirosaki's power, he can't use Zangetsu's either.

Also, when Ichigo fought with GJ the second time right after this, Hachigen said that Ichigo's reiatsu had been contaminated by GJs.

Then, after Ichigo-Ulquiorra-fight while Inoue was attempting to heal him, she was thinking "Such an impressive reiatsu is wrapped deep within Kurosaki-kun's wounds...I can't reject it...".

The arrancar sure are e filthy bunch, contaminating everyone around.

Konkun
August 19, 2008, 09:03 PM
I don't think any happened to Ichigo' speed. He still got it, it's just that his opponents are on the same league as he is, or faster. Also, his state of mind affect his speed and combat abilities. Had he believed in himself more, he would have been able to hold his own ground. Remember he was afraid of using his power after learning about his hollow powers. Now Ichigo has a reason to use it and he can control it, he's fighting with full strength and is getting stronger after every fight.

Onomatopoeia
August 20, 2008, 12:24 AM
*Sigh* Everyone says Ichigo's opponents have gotten stronger. But we have one simple speed feet that Ichigo used in SS that he has never used again. It doesn't matter who his opponents are he still should be able to use this speed.

In one word, Afterimages. Ichigo used them against Byakuya. He has never shown them again. It doesn't matter how fast his opponents are Ichigo should still be able to use afterimages. So in other words he has gotten slower.

Thats likely his hollows fault but still.

Leen
August 20, 2008, 11:34 AM
^
I agree with you. I think the problem is not with the opponents themselves but rather with Ichigo himself. If he is able to pull out such great speed against Byakuya and supposedly Byakuya is equal or at least almost at Grimmjow's level, there is no way Ichigo couldn't pull out that super speed trick again. Yet, I do not see much on speed increment. What I see more is the hollow mask. >.<

deathgod6664820
August 20, 2008, 02:57 PM
ichigo has not lost any speed, and if u take that from the Byakuya fight then u will notice that the whole after image speed happenend when Byakuya was standing still, one more thing is when Byakuya use his full bankai u know the globe power( forgot what its called ) he fought ichi with speed and was on par with him maybe even going to beat ichi into the hollow came out

kkck
August 20, 2008, 03:03 PM
^ During his fight againts byakuga, after he activated his bankai initialy he was insanely fast, but as the fight went on he got progresively slower because he had just achived bankai and because his body was at its limit.
Remember byakuga'a bankai does not increase his speed at all, (even byakuga said he didnt get any faster, but ichigo got slower) it creates millions of blades he can use to attack from any angle and he can combine all little blades to increase his attacks power.

Onomatopoeia
August 20, 2008, 06:15 PM
Simple Answer, using Bankai screws with Ichigo's bones and crushes them if he goes to fast. Also he has no where near enough stamina to use it for any period of time. In other words he was already slowing down when Byakuya used his Bankai.

Edit: No offence but the title really sucks. It sounds like Ichigo ate like a pound of candy. And is now bouncing off the walls because he's hyper from all the sugar. Adrenaline rush much. Couldn't we have just used Super Speed?

the current title makes the topic of discussion obvious enough. no need to change unless it's too confusing

gigantor21
August 20, 2008, 10:12 PM
Simple Answer, using Bankai screws with Ichigo's bones and crushes them if he goes to fast. Also he has no where near enough stamina to use it for any period of time. In other words he was already slowing down when Byakuya used his Bankai.

Given how Ichigo can release his Bankai almost instantly now, I don't think that's a valid excuse. He's been getting lots of practice with it--if there was such a dangerous, permanent side effect, then it would've been mentioned by now.

I'm sure it's the same TZ as before. And that's the problem. Kubo apparently thought it was a good idea to make all the Arrancar Shunpou masters, while shoehorning TZ into a "speed boost only" power-up--which is why it's completely useless now.

Onomatopoeia
August 20, 2008, 10:54 PM
ichigo has not lost any speed, and if u take that from the Byakuya fight then u will notice that the whole after image speed happenend when Byakuya was standing still, one more thing is when Byakuya use his full bankai u know the globe power( forgot what its called ) he fought ichi with speed and was on par with him maybe even going to beat ichi into the hollow came out

I was replying to this gigantor. Byakuya only caught up to Ichigo because his stamina sucks at this point.Which is why we stopped seeing afterimages once Byakuya went Bankai .Anyways as I proved Ichigo's afterimages have dissapeared since SS.

That means something weird as happened specificlly a possible power battle between Shirosaki(power) and Zangetsu(speed). With Shirosaki winning because of Ichigo using his Vizard Mask so much. Because of this the speed of Ichigo's zanpaktou is gone but now he can damage the espada thanks to the extra power. Or perhaps Ichigo has never released that much reitsu so that it crushes his bones, because he knows that while he'll go faster then the Espada he'll run out of power to quickly. Something like a time limit, which is why it hasn't come up again.

Or you know maybe I'm just trying to justify a plothole :sweat

deathgod6664820
August 21, 2008, 03:39 PM
^ During his fight againts byakuga, after he activated his bankai initialy he was insanely fast, but as the fight went on he got progresively slower because he had just achived bankai and because his body was at its limit.
Remember byakuga'a bankai does not increase his speed at all, (even byakuga said he didnt get any faster, but ichigo got slower) it creates millions of blades he can use to attack from any angle and he can combine all little blades to increase his attacks power.

i never said hes speed increase, i said after Senbonzakura's bankai, senkei form that he fought on par with ichi speed he was not standing in one spot like hes regular bankai waving his hands. thats all i met.
[hr]

I was replying to this gigantor. Byakuya only caught up to Ichigo because his stamina sucks at this point.Which is why we stopped seeing afterimages once Byakuya went Bankai .Anyways as I proved Ichigo's afterimages have dissapeared since SS.

That means something weird as happened specificlly a possible power battle between Shirosaki(power) and Zangetsu(speed). With Shirosaki winning because of Ichigo using his Vizard Mask so much. Because of this the speed of Ichigo's zanpaktou is gone but now he can damage the espada thanks to the extra power. Or perhaps Ichigo has never released that much reitsu so that it crushes his bones, because he knows that while he'll go faster then the Espada he'll run out of power to quickly. Something like a time limit, which is why it hasn't come up again.

Or you know maybe I'm just trying to justify a plothole :sweat

Byakuya was already in bankai when ichi use afterimages. and i feel safe to say that ichi only used after images or what look like them when fighting an opponent that was standing completely still. when ichi use his bankai almost all his opponents have said somthing about his speed increase, but none was standing still like Byakuya. if ichi was standing still and byakuya was using his speed it would look alot like afterimages too.

Onomatopoeia
August 21, 2008, 10:18 PM
When Ichigo used afterimages Byakuya was not in Bankai that was Shikai. And Byakuya said it himself Ichigo's speed had decreased drasticlly because his stamina so theirs no reason to suspect anything else.

Also to counter your last point meet Dordonii and Yammi both stood still for about 2 minutes(Yammi moved his arm a bit but same thing). Ichigo was in Bankai I saw no afterimages, perhaps you did but I didn't.

deathgod6664820
August 22, 2008, 11:28 AM
When Ichigo used afterimages Byakuya was not in Bankai that was Shikai. And Byakuya said it himself Ichigo's speed had decreased drasticlly because his stamina so theirs no reason to suspect anything else.

Also to counter your last point meet Dordonii and Yammi both stood still for about 2 minutes(Yammi moved his arm a bit but same thing). Ichigo was in Bankai I saw no afterimages, perhaps you did but I didn't.

sorry man byakuya was in bankai here's the linkhttp://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/161/09/ that and the next page. i never said his speed didnt decreased i just commeted on the afterimages. and with dordonii and yammi, ichi directly attack those guys cuz they couldnt keep up with the speed of his bankai, byakuya could.

kkck
August 22, 2008, 03:06 PM
One of the things that confuses people is that byakuga was able to keep up with zomari who had the fastest sonido, but ichigo (who in soul society could keep up with byakuga in shikai) wasnt able to keep up with dodorni a privaron espada.

deathgod6664820
August 22, 2008, 03:50 PM
One of the things that confuses people is that byakuga was able to keep up with zomari who had the fastest sonido, but ichigo (who in soul society could keep up with byakuga in shikai) wasnt able to keep up with dodorni a privaron espada.

question kkck, when did ichi ever fight byakuga while byakuga was in shikai? And from the fight with dodorni wasent he holding and trying to protect nel?

Eddy01741
August 22, 2008, 04:14 PM
When Ichigo used afterimages Byakuya was not in Bankai that was Shikai. And Byakuya said it himself Ichigo's speed had decreased drasticlly because his stamina so theirs no reason to suspect anything else.

Also to counter your last point meet Dordonii and Yammi both stood still for about 2 minutes(Yammi moved his arm a bit but same thing). Ichigo was in Bankai I saw no afterimages, perhaps you did but I didn't.
Um, no, he was in bankai. Ichigo wanted Byakuya to go bankai first, and then Byakuya did, then Ichigo said that it was futile to try to fight bankai with jsut shikai, and released his own.

Byakuya's bankai has 3 forms, it has a larger version of his shikai (according to the title, 1000 times larger, 1000 blades lol), he has the one where he surrounds himself and the opopnent with blades made up from the tiny blades from his first bankai form (annhilaationscope or something), and then he has his final form, which compreses all his mini cherry blossom like blades into one sword, and increases only his sheer power.

Anyways, Ichigo has definitely been losing speed, in fact, it always seems like Ichigo gets weaker and weaker. All the other captains barely ever use bankai till its neccesary, seems like Ichigo is breaking out bankai right as each fight begins. Also, he needed bankai+mask to beat the 6th espada, while byakuya barely needed bankai to beat 7th espada, and kenpachi only needed kendo to beat the fourth espada.

kkck
August 22, 2008, 05:02 PM
question kkck, when did ichi ever fight byakuga while byakuga was in shikai? And from the fight with dodorni wasent he holding and trying to protect nel?

I meant ichigo was using shikai, my bad lol. Although byakuga did use shikai, which was countered with a getsuga tenshou.
And with didorni, ichigo wasnt always protecting nell, at first they were fighting a fair fight. Dodorni attacked nel when he saw it was the only way to force ichigo o go all out.
[hr]
I think ichigo got a little speed back when he fought grimmjow though. This time he fought evenly with unreleased grimmjow using just his bankai. The first time ichigo fought grimmjow he wasnt able to keep up with him and took a beating even though he was using his bankai.

basterd
August 23, 2008, 09:04 AM
I can't see that Ichigo's speed has dropped, do to a certain problem.
Ichigo has barely no fighting experience compared to every Gotei Captain or Espada. He always makes fast attacks from easy calculated spots. Byakuya just got startled when Ichigo was so fast that he created several images. If Byakuya had attacked Ichigo at that point I wonder if the images would have stopped. That fight is the only fight where Ichigo's opponent has stood still, and just looked. Every other opponent have faced him head on.
How could Ichigo catch up with Grimmjow's "elbow-attack" just before it hit Orihime and Nel? Only reasonable explanation would be that he has his normal bankai speed.
If Ichigo had a lifetime of fighting experience like everyone else he would use his speed in a whole different way then he does.

Exodi
August 23, 2008, 03:22 PM
I can't see that Ichigo's speed has dropped, do to a certain problem.
Ichigo has barely no fighting experience compared to every Gotei Captain or Espada. He always makes fast attacks from easy calculated spots. Byakuya just got startled when Ichigo was so fast that he created several images. If Byakuya had attacked Ichigo at that point I wonder if the images would have stopped. That fight is the only fight where Ichigo's opponent has stood still, and just looked. Every other opponent have faced him head on.
How could Ichigo catch up with Grimmjow's "elbow-attack" just before it hit Orihime and Nel? Only reasonable explanation would be that he has his normal bankai speed.
If Ichigo had a lifetime of fighting experience like everyone else he would use his speed in a whole different way then he does.

I agree with this. I don't think Ichigo's speed has changed. He just doesn't use his speed the way he should.

kkck
August 24, 2008, 05:11 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/282/18/
Do you mean that elbow attack? Ichigo had his mask on at the time, I dont think he would have been able to protect orihime and nel if he just had his bankai at the moment.
Ichigo's speed there was the result of his bankai and mask, which is more than speed from just bankai.

deathgod6664820
August 24, 2008, 08:44 PM
my point too. the fact is ichi didnt lose speed do to his hollow (the second grimjow fight (ichi blew him away with speed and power) just because u dont see afterimages dont mean he lost his speed its the opponents level of power.

~Joshua~
October 02, 2008, 07:40 PM
My theory is that Ichigo's power is similar to Trunks from DBZ. I think that he might trade speed with power everytime he puts his mask on...He uses it so frequently that we don't really get to see him as fast as he was against Byakuya and Kariya. Maybe if he fought without the mask for once we could see the high speed. Now he might even be faster seeing as how he has gotten used to his bankai perhaps. Remember what ogihcI said..."Your bones are creakin' from the spirit force of your own Bankai!" ....

ninjabot
October 03, 2008, 12:34 AM
Ichigo's speed hasn't changed. He's just fighting faster opponents. It makes sense that as the manga continues on opponents will be faster, smarter, and stronger.

Raizen
October 03, 2008, 05:58 PM
Ichigo's speed hasn't changed. He's just fighting faster opponents. It makes sense that as the manga continues on opponents will be faster, smarter, and stronger.
The thing is the speed levels are wacked. Zomari was stated to be the fastest espada, yet byakuya was able to keep up with him to some extent. Even killing him with a swing of his sword with ONE LEG b4 zomari even noticed.
Yet, byakuya had trouble with bankai ichigo, while ichigo speed in bankai is made a farce in his fight w/ unreleased grimjow. Ichigo should be able to do dances around unreleased grimjow considering how fast he was in his fight w/ byakuya

kkck
October 03, 2008, 06:11 PM
^Sonido is a high speed moving technique, probably similar in some ways to naruto's(manga) shushin jutsu. If that is the case then maybe having the fastest sonido doesnt nesesarily mean that zomari is going to be able to move at the same speed as grimmjow.
Then there is also the posibility of ichigo being slower than what he was againts byakuga, which would also explain a lot.
It is also wierd that during his first fight with grimmjow ichigo wasnt able to keep up even when he used his bankai, while during the last one ichigo kept up with unreleased grimmjow just fine with his bankai.
Wish kubo someday explains all this things a little better lol.

Raizen
October 03, 2008, 06:26 PM
^Sonido is a high speed moving technique, probably similar in some ways to naruto's(manga) shushin jutsu. If that is the case then maybe having the fastest sonido doesnt nesesarily mean that zomari is going to be able to move at the same speed as grimmjow.
Then there is also the posibility of ichigo being slower than what he was againts byakuga, which would also explain a lot.
It is also wierd that during his first fight with grimmjow ichigo wasnt able to keep up even when he used his bankai, while during the last one ichigo kept up with unreleased grimmjow just fine with his bankai.
Wish kubo someday explains all this things a little better lol.
I have read a theory somewhere and it sounded quite plausible.
As we know, Ichigo's inner world is inhabited by the black dude and hollow ichigo. They both claim themselves to be zangetsu.
During ichigo's battles in SS, he was more intune with the black zangetsu, thus his bankai focused more on speed.
But after his hollow started coming out and taking over and with the mask and all, ichigo's focus was on strength.
It is like each of the zangetsu has a different ability that boost ichigo. Maybe that is why ichigo's bankai speed was shown slow at one time and then fast again at another

MegaX
October 10, 2008, 07:26 PM
Here's a thought: remember how Ichigo's Bankai was breaking his bones when he fought Byakuya? Maybe the reason Ichigo hasn't attained that level of speed yet is because he's been unconsciously nerfing his own Bankai out of the fear that it'll happen again.

Basically, what if it's weaker because Ichigo's been intentionally weakening it?

gigantor21
October 17, 2008, 10:39 PM
^ Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having the power-up, though?

The main component TZ gives Ichigo is speed. If he's deliberately nerfing himself to stay safe, then all he's getting is the general Bankai boost (which hasn't done a thing since the SS arc). That explanation is more believable, but not anymore reassuring IMO.

MegaX
October 18, 2008, 02:34 PM
^ Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having the power-up, though?

The main component TZ gives Ichigo is speed. If he's deliberately nerfing himself to stay safe, then all he's getting is the general Bankai boost (which hasn't done a thing since the SS arc). That explanation is more believable, but not anymore reassuring IMO.

I don't know that Ichigo would be conscious of that fact, I imagine it would be an unconscious effort. And no it's not reassuring, but it would allow Kubo an excuse to develop Ichigo's abilities apart from his Hollow powers (not that I'm opposed to the Hollow powers, they actually solve one of Ichigo's oldest weaknesses).

gigantor21
October 18, 2008, 04:13 PM
^ Well, my main concern would be Ichigo using that to outmaneuver Ulquiorra somehow. I don't want him to get some massive "natural" speed boost, a la Hajime no Ippo. In the first place, that shouldn't make a difference--he couldn't cut Q with the mask on, warp speed or not.

EvolutionIX
October 25, 2008, 10:32 PM
Sigh...Ichigo hasnt gotten a boost in power in ages. Whenever he is stuck in a sticky situation, his "resolve' randomly kills the opponent no matter how powerful they are. Ichigo's power ups are like a one-off thing where it shows hes invincible with it...then suddenly, its gone.

We havent seen Zangetsu in ages, so maybe its about time he showed up. Theres no reason why he hasnt showed up in ages either. We have only seen Hollow Ichigo and how Ichigo runs into battle "Bankai", Hollow Mask and still gets pinballed?

Theres some inconsistency here and thats whats taking away my tastes from Bleach.

kikrox1
October 29, 2008, 04:07 PM
idk why he doesnt use his speed more but i remember him creating after images in his final fight with grimmjow (at least i think it was that fight it coulda been in a filler) so nothing happened to it really i think

ps. sonido and shunpo are quick high speed movements they arent walking or running its just a step (flash step) which is actual foot speed making things like ichigos after images being running speed beacause the are moving with him