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Homura
May 27, 2008, 07:31 AM
The Four Great Noble Houses

a) Kuchiki
b) Shihouin
c) ???? -
d) ???? -

Lower noble houses:

a) Soifon's Assistant's Clan - (If someone remembers the name, please correct me)
b) Kyoraku Clan - House that Shunsui belongs to (it was stated that it was a lower noble clan)
c) Soifon's Clan -
d) Shiba Clan* - Previously led by Kaien Shiba, As far as I know, Kukaku is now leading the clan (Note, this clan was dishonored and considered to be degraded)


Now back to Ichigo and his father, could it be possible that Isshin is part of one of the great Noble houses? As far as I know, the last name "Kurosaki" belongs to Masaki Kurosaki (Ichigo's mom). Also, if Isshin was part of a great noble house, wouldn't it be logical for him to change his appearance so that shinigami won't be able to recognize him?

If Isshin was indeed part of a noble house, then this could explain Ichigo's massive amounts of reiatsu given that it was stated that the nobles were born with a reiatsu that is naturally above most souls in Soul Society (this would probably include most of the Shinigami).

Also, it seems that the great noble houses held political positions. If this is true, then would it be possible that Isshin is an officer of a military branch? (Given that there is a Kuchiki and a Shihouin captain and that Shihouin's are usually responsible for one of the branches of the military).

Following this reasoning, this may explain Isshin's partial garb (or it might be because his powers are not yet fully recovered). Could Isshin be a part of a great noble house?

Note: If anyone has confirmed information about the other two great noble houses, it would be very much appreciated if you post here.

Tsukisama
May 27, 2008, 07:40 AM
Soi Fon's lieutenant's clan name is Oomaeda. I doubt that Shiba is considered a noble family anymore, since they now live in Rukongai and the nobility live in Seireitei. Other lower noble clans include the Kira and Ukitake clans.

I doubt that Isshin has changed his appearance. We have seen him outside of his gigai, and his face is the same. He could have had plastic surgery on his spirit body, but that just seems really drastic and not a direction in which Kubo would move.

Assuming Isshin did not alter his appearance, I would then doubt that he is a noble, given how none of the other shinigami that have ever met him haave recognized him. (Nobility are well-known typically.)

There are plenty of powerful people in Bleach that aren't necessarily from the top nobility, and Isshin is more than likely one of them.

Homura
May 27, 2008, 08:09 AM
Soi Fon's lieutenant's clan name is Oomaeda. I doubt that Shiba is considered a noble family anymore, since they now live in Rukongai and the nobility live in Seireitei. Other lower noble clans include the Kira and Ukitake clans.

I doubt that Isshin has changed his appearance. We have seen him outside of his gigai, and his face is the same. He could have had plastic surgery on his spirit body, but that just seems really drastic and not a direction in which Kubo would move.

Assuming Isshin did not alter his appearance, I would then doubt that he is a noble, given how none of the other shinigami that have ever met him haave recognized him. (Nobility are well-known typically.)

There are plenty of powerful people in Bleach that aren't necessarily from the top nobility, and Isshin is more than likely one of them.


Well that's why I put an asterisk up for the Shiba :p

As far as Isshin, it's all the more reason for him to perform a change on his appearance. If you are well known and you want to hide out, you would most likely do something to alter your appearance.

There are plenty yes, but It maybe a link to Isshin and Ichigo's past.

Tsukisama
May 27, 2008, 12:12 PM
Kubo has never played the plastic surgery card, and I hope he never does. We know that Isshin has been off the radar for at least 20 years, but altering the appearance of his spirit body seems way too drastic and a cop out if Kubo were to ever do this.

Practically anything can be a link to Isshin's past at this point, but saying he is really strong and therefore he must be a member of one of the four great noble families is not a very strong or convincing argument.

lordHokage
May 27, 2008, 01:41 PM
The Kurosaki's family could be one of the four noble houses, if so, that would explain why Byakugan and Ichigo don't get along. Isshin maybe one of the old guards of Gotei 13, his massive amounts of spirit power is still unknown. :blink

Homura
May 27, 2008, 03:48 PM
Oh I never asserted that Isshin IS from one of the great noble houses,

I was just linking some observations/facts that was revealed. And no, I didn't make that connection on reiatsu alone. If you check my reasoning, I merely implied that he MIGHT be of a great noble house but there's not enough evidence to prove/disprove it. Practically anything can be linked to Isshin yes, but only a few theories would have some truth to them. I mean let's be honest here, have we actually seen any high ranking shinigami to be pathetically weak? My point exactly, a shinigami's power usually warrants him a spot in the ranks. If people would argue about Central 46 well, we havent even seen one to disprove this yet we have every reason to prove this thinking (given all the Shinigami that has been revealed).

Altering spirit body is already being done, I don't think its too much to ask if it was ever to be proven. Shinigami get scars and all, therefore their soul's structure has similarity to a biological entity.

I'm just giving out some facts and observations. Although I wouldn't be surprised if Kubo played the plastic surgery card, it does make sense when you think about it. Mayuri has experiments to different entities, I wouldn't be surprised if he is able to do it. What im thinking is that, why didn't Rukia/Renji recognize him? It could be surmised that it's either or both:

a) He is a member of a secret squad/group.
b) He left Soul Society before at an earlier date.

What I was thinking was is that it is the former though, I'd want to see if Byakuya or Yoruichi knows him. That would give some sort of information or link to us if they ever did meet.

Tsukisama
May 27, 2008, 04:35 PM
Oh I never asserted that Isshin IS from one of the great noble houses,

I was just linking some observations/facts that was revealed. And no, I didn't make that connection on reiatsu alone. If you check my reasoning, I merely implied that he MIGHT be of a great noble house but there's not enough evidence to prove/disprove it. Practically anything can be linked to Isshin yes, but only a few theories would have some truth to them. I mean let's be honest here, have we actually seen any high ranking shinigami to be pathetically weak? My point exactly, a shinigami's power usually warrants him a spot in the ranks. If people would argue about Central 46 well, we havent even seen one to disprove this yet we have every reason to prove this thinking (given all the Shinigami that has been revealed).

How did you turn my saying that Isshin is probably not a member of one of the four great noble families into Isshin probably did not have a high-ranking position in SS? I definitely think that Isshin probably had a high-ranking position, but that does not equate to being a member of a noble family.


Altering spirit body is already being done, I don't think its too much to ask if it was ever to be proven. Shinigami get scars and all, therefore their soul's structure has similarity to a biological entity.

I'm just giving out some facts and observations. Although I wouldn't be surprised if Kubo played the plastic surgery card, it does make sense when you think about it. Mayuri has experiments to different entities, I wouldn't be surprised if he is able to do it.

Alteration of the spirit body in the way of plastic surgery (i.e., altering the appearance of someone to look someone else) has not been done before. (Obviously, alterations in the general, non-surgical sense have been done spirit bodies like cuts or bruises, as it has been long established that spirit bodies behave rather similarly to bodies of flesh, but I assumed that went without saying. I suppose that it may have needed clarification.)

I never said or implied that plastic surgery was impossible to perform on the spirit body. I am sure Mayuri among others are capable of such things. I, however, would be surprised if Kubo used plastic surgery as the reason why no one recognizes Isshin. It seems too convenient and unimaginative even for Kubo to go there.


What im thinking is that, why didn't Rukia/Renji recognize him? It could be surmised that it's either or both:

a) He is a member of a secret squad/group.
b) He left Soul Society before at an earlier date.

What I was thinking was is that it is the former though, I'd want to see if Byakuya or Yoruichi knows him. That would give some sort of information or link to us if they ever did meet.

Not only did Rukia and Renji not recognize him, but Shinji could not recognize his reiatsu, which has been shown to be fairly recognizable for those who are skilled.

If Urahara knows who Isshin really is, then Yoruichi recognizing and knowing Isshin would not necessarily be that great of a telltale sign. Unless all of the captains are privied to the knowledge of who Isshin really is, I doubt Byakuya would be able to identify him as his former self as a shinigami. It is not like Byakuya would have any special reason to be included in some sort of super secret information more than the other captains. (Being leader of one of the four great noble clans is not an access card to all secret information in SS.)

If Isshin were a member of a secret group like the royal guard or even the royal family, plastic surgery to alter his spirit body's appearance would not be necessary (unless he only recently joined the secret group, but I doubt that he is someone fresh).

Also, if Isshin left SS at a much earlier date (earlier than Shinji's time in Gotei 13 or even in SS), then again Isshin probably would not need the plastic surgery, since he would still be so unrecognizable to the few who have been around long enough to know him.

lordHokage
May 27, 2008, 05:11 PM
Not only did Rukia and Renji not recognize him, but Shinji could not recognize his reiatsu, which has been shown to be fairly recognizable for those who are skilled.

If Isshin were a member of a secret group like the royal guard or even the royal family, plastic surgery to alter his spirit body's appearance would not be necessary (unless he only recently joined the secret group, but I doubt that he is someone fresh).

Also, if Isshin left SS at a much earlier date (earlier than Shinji's time in Gotei 13 or even in SS), then again Isshin probably would not need the plastic surgery, since he would still be so unrecognizable to the few who have been around long enough to know him.


I agree with you. If Isshin left Soul Society long before Shinji's time, which soul reaper would be in position to recognize his reiatsu now? I don’t think his massive reiatsu can be detected by Soul Society radar. :blink

Tsukisama
May 27, 2008, 05:26 PM
I agree with you. If Isshin left Soul Society long before Shinji's time, which soul reaper would be in position to recognize his reiatsu now? I don’t think his massive reiatsu can be detected by Soul Society radar. :blink

Only Yamamoto, Unohana, Ukitake, and Kyoraku (assuming Isshin was a captain), but I doubt that they would not keep his identity secret and thus those four knowing is not that bad.

lordHokage
May 27, 2008, 06:14 PM
Only Yamamoto, Unohana, Ukitake, and Kyoraku (assuming Isshin was a captain), but I doubt that they would not keep his identity secret and thus those four knowing is not that bad.


If Isshin is noble, they would keep his identity a secret. Those five captains including Isshin are the old guards of Soul Society. :blink

Tsukisama
May 27, 2008, 06:37 PM
If Isshin is noble, they would keep his identity a secret. Those five captains including Isshin are the old guards of Soul Society. :blink

Exactly. As I said, they are unlikely to reveal his identity, whether Isshin is a noble, a member of the royal guard, or something else.

patedecarne
May 29, 2008, 07:08 AM
Isshin's past must be explained at some point in the story: after all, Kubo didn't introduced him as a shinigami for nothing;

But I think we can conclude Isshin isn't an ordinary shinigami, mainly because his Haori is just like a captain haori;

If Isshin was really from one of the 4 nobles family, then probably there're some Kurosakis in SS, but I don't think the massive reiatsu from Ichigo comes from his lineage, because he's a hybrid, and hybrids seems to be more powerful, not by lineage, I think;

lordHokage
May 29, 2008, 11:11 AM
Isshin's past must be explained at some point in the story: after all, Kubo didn't introduced him as a shinigami for nothing;

But I think we can conclude Isshin isn't an ordinary shinigami, mainly because his Haori is just like a captain haori;

If Isshin was really from one of the 4 nobles family, then probably there're some Kurosakis in SS, but I don't think the massive reiatsu from Ichigo comes from his lineage, because he's a hybrid, and hybrids seems to be more powerful, not by lineage, I think;


I do think so. Ichigo is not hybrid, he is the real thing and he inherited his massive reiatsu from his lineage. I am too lazy to give evidence but the proof is there, trust me. :D

Tsukisama
May 29, 2008, 11:17 AM
I do think so. Ichigo is not hybrid, he is the real thing and he inherited his massive reiatsu from his lineage. I am too lazy to give evidence but the proof is there, trust me. :D

Ichigo is a shinigami-hollow hybrid in the truest sense, more so than any of the vizards. He regained his shinigami and hollow natures simultaneously, making him the perfect hybrid.

I agree that Ichigo's innate spiritual abilities likely have something to do with his lineage, but I mean this in the sense that his father is a powerful shinigami in a gigai, not that he has to be related to nobility.

lordHokage
May 29, 2008, 01:25 PM
Ichigo is a shinigami-hollow hybrid in the truest sense, more so than any of the vizards. He regained his shinigami and hollow natures simultaneously, making him the perfect hybrid.

I agree that Ichigo's innate spiritual abilities likely have something to do with his lineage, but I mean this in the sense that his father is a powerful shinigami in a gigai, not that he has to be related to nobility.


How Indigo could regained his Shinigami powers when it was he never taken away from him. The only powers of Shinigami the Byakuya (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/63/09/ ) destroyed was Rukia's (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/63/10/ ) powers not Indigo’s. When he fought Renji (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/55/13/ ) for the first time, he unleashed his own spiritual powers. Since we know very little about Indigo’s lineage, I wouldn’t say that he is a Shinigami-hollow hybrid. :D

Tsukisama
May 29, 2008, 02:18 PM
How Indigo could regained his Shinigami powers when it was he never taken away from him. The only powers of Shinigami the Byakuya (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/63/09/ ) destroyed was Rukia's (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/63/10/ ) powers not Indigo’s. When he fought Renji (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/55/13/ ) for the first time, he unleashed his own spiritual powers. Since we know very little about Indigo’s lineage, I wouldn’t say that he is a Shinigami-hollow hybrid. :D

Perhaps "regain" was a poor choice of words. A better word would be "awaken." Ichigo awakened his dormant shinigami powers during the process while his hollow was forming and taking over.

Ichigo's lineage does not necessarily play in a role is his definition as a shingami-hollow hybrid. He was not born a hybrid, but he has become one.

lordHokage
May 29, 2008, 05:36 PM
Perhaps "regain" was a poor choice of words. A better word would be "awaken." Ichigo awakened his dormant shinigami powers during the process while his hollow was forming and taking over.

Ichigo's lineage does not necessarily play in a role is his definition as a shingami-hollow hybrid. He was not born a hybrid, but he has become one.


Ichigo is a pure Shinigami with hollow abilities. I think there is more to his powers than meets the eye and we can only speculate that he is a hollow hybrid or not. I personal believe that Ichigo has dormant powers just waiting to be awakened by some mysterious force and with any luck we get to see more of his hidden powers when he battles Aizen’s army top brass. :blink

So far, Out of the four great noble houses, we know the names of two but we know very little about them and their abilities. If Ichigo’s father is really from one of the four great noble houses, that may explain why his son is so unique. :D

Tsukisama
May 29, 2008, 10:18 PM
So far, Out of the four great noble houses, we know the names of two but we know very little about them and their abilities. If Ichigo’s father is really from one of the four great noble houses, that may explain why his son is so unique. :D

The four great noble houses are powerful, because they have generations' worth of skills and talents that are passed on. They are not inherently greater or more powerful, and thus you can't credit Ichigo's innate raw power to nobility. If he were specially trained by his father or somehow learned some super secret skills from his ancestors, then you could make a case for it coming for nobility, but the nobility, even the four great noble families, are not born with more power or reiatsu than potentially any other shinigami.

lordHokage
May 30, 2008, 12:14 AM
The four great noble houses are powerful, because they have generations' worth of skills and talents that are passed on. They are not inherently greater or more powerful, and thus you can't credit Ichigo's innate raw power to nobility. If he were specially trained by his father or somehow learned some super secret skills from his ancestors, then you could make a case for it coming for nobility, but the nobility, even the four great noble families, are not born with more power or reiatsu than potentially any other shinigami.


Since we know very little about the four great noble houses skills and talents, you are only speculating. Ichigo's father may or may not be nobility but that remains to be seen. :blink

Tsukisama
May 30, 2008, 08:00 AM
Since we know very little about the four great noble houses skills and talents, you are only speculating. Ichigo's father may or may not be nobility but that remains to be seen. :blink

It has never been stated that they are born with greater powers, and until it is stated as such, we should not try to make them out as something more special than they are. You are speculating that they are born with greater powers and abilities, but until Kubo states that they are, we should not assume that they are which is all I have done.

mestizo311
May 30, 2008, 10:01 AM
It has never been stated that they are born with greater powers, and until it is stated as such, we should not try to make them out as something more special than they are. You are speculating that they are born with greater powers and abilities, but until Kubo states that they are, we should not assume that they are which is all I have done.

I think Byakuya stated that during his fight with Ichigo. He was trying to make sense of Ichigo's reiatsu and I think he stated that those born into the four great noble houses have bigger reiatsu's than normal shinigami. I'm only recalling from what was said in the anime, so I could be wrong.

Anyway, as for Isshin, I don't think he's from one of the noble houses. Although he was strong enough to take out Grandfisher, there isn't really anything else to go off of. I'm pretty sure that maybe half of SS vice captains could have taken down Grandfisher. The only things mentioned was that, 1) he has captain class reiatsu 2) his cape is somewhat similar to a captains but unlike any that we've seen. My guess is that he's from the royal guard. This would explain why Shinji didn't recognize his reiatsu and possibly the strange cape.

lordHokage
May 30, 2008, 10:25 AM
It has never been stated that they are born with greater powers, and until it is stated as such, we should not try to make them out as something more special than they are. You are speculating that they are born with greater powers and abilities, but until Kubo states that they are, we should not assume that they are which is all I have done.


You repeated what I said. :p

Tsukisama
May 30, 2008, 03:52 PM
I think Byakuya stated that during his fight with Ichigo. He was trying to make sense of Ichigo's reiatsu and I think he stated that those born into the four great noble houses have bigger reiatsu's than normal shinigami. I'm only recalling from what was said in the anime, so I could be wrong.

I found the page (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/162/07/) to which you were referring. That statement he makes does not state that the nobles of those houses are necessarily born stronger, but that certainly is one way you could interpret it. I have always interpreted it as him saying that the noble houses possess greater skills passed down through special training, clan secrets and such (kind of like in Naruto how the various clans have their own jutsu and skills, but theoretically anyone who had been taught them and trained by them could do them), especially since most of the skills of the shinigami require training (zanjutsu, kidou, hoho, hakuda).


You repeated what I said. :p

Actually, I repeated part of what you said: the part about not making assumptions. The reason for doing that was that you were assuming that the nobles of the four great noble families were born with greater abilities than other shinigami, and I was expressing that you should not take assumptions as given. By stating my opinion on the noble families (which is also speculation), I was disagreeing with your original statement of Ichigo being innately more powerful by some relation to one of the four great noble clans, because your statement was based on your assumption that those nobles are innately more powerful (again which Kubo has not yet expressly stated).

No one should take assumptions as fact and forget to that they are just speculation. I hope this is clear. This back-and-forth discussion on this needs to end.

Concerning the main topic, again I think that neither Isshin nor Ichigo are related to the four great noble clans, but if they are, then I don't think it has any bearing on their abilities.

mestizo311
May 31, 2008, 03:40 AM
I found the page (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/162/07/) to which you were referring. That statement he makes does not state that the nobles of those houses are necessarily born stronger, but that certainly is one way you could interpret it. I have always interpreted it as him saying that the noble houses possess greater skills passed down through special training, clan secrets and such (kind of like in Naruto how the various clans have their own jutsu and skills, but theoretically anyone who had been taught them and trained by them could do them), especially since most of the skills of the shinigami require training (zanjutsu, kidou, hoho, hakuda).



Thanks for finding that Tsukisama. I was kinda shocked to see that it was a manga-rain scanlation. I've always thought their translations were more accurate than other groups.

lordHokage
June 02, 2008, 01:14 PM
The reason for doing that was that you were assuming that the nobles of the four great noble families were born with greater abilities than other shinigami


In the eyes of Soul Society, Ichigo a mere human boy defeated two of their most powerful captains. Besides, in the house of Kurosaki, Ichigo and his father are not the only ones who have spiritual powers, both of his sisters have it as well. :blink

Tsukisama
June 02, 2008, 03:58 PM
In the eyes of Soul Society, Ichigo a mere human boy defeated two of their most powerful captains. Besides, in the house of Kurosaki, Ichigo and his father are not the only ones who have spiritual powers, both of his sisters have it as well. :blink

What does this have to do with the topic of Isshin and Ichigo being related to one of the top four noble families? :confused

lordHokage
June 02, 2008, 05:11 PM
What does this have to do with the topic of Isshin and Ichigo being related to one of the top four noble families? :confused


Are you kidding me? Are we discussing the Kurosaki’s heritage? If so, Yuzu and Karin are Kurosaki’s too and if Isshin is a part of a great noble house, he has done an excellent job in covering it up. Rukia stayed at Ichigo’s home for a loooooooooong period of time and she never noticed anything unusual from Isshin, Yuzu and Karin. In other words, with the exception of Ichigo, the Kurosaki’s family is just another happy middle-class human being family with no spiritual powers in the eyes of Soul Society. :blink

Tsukisama
June 02, 2008, 05:27 PM
Are you kidding me? Are we discussing the Kurosaki’s heritage? If so, Yuzu and Karin are Kurosaki’s too and if Isshin is a part of a great noble house, he has done an excellent job in covering it up. Rukia stayed at Ichigo’s home for a loooooooooong period of time and she never noticed anything unusual from Isshin, Yuzu and Karin. In other words, with the exception of Ichigo, the Kurosaki’s family is just another happy middle-class human being family with no spiritual powers in the eyes of Soul Society. :blink

Well, you never connected it to the topic of nobility (not just discussing the powers of the Kurosaki family but them being related to the top four nobility). So your point was that you don't think that the Kurosaki family is related to one of the top four noble families. Your last statement does not necessarily help your argument, since we know that Isshin is rather powerful and Rukia was not able to detect it, but I agree that I don't think that they are related to the top four nobility.

lordHokage
June 02, 2008, 06:25 PM
Well, you never connected it to the topic of nobility (not just discussing the powers of the Kurosaki family but them being related to the top four nobility). So your point was that you don't think that the Kurosaki family is related to one of the top four noble families. Your last statement does not necessarily help your argument, since we know that Isshin is rather powerful and Rukia was not able to detect it, but I agree that I don't think that they are related to the top four nobility.


The question is could Isshin be a part of a great noble house?

Ichigo and his sisters are a part of the Kurosaki's heritage and if their father is nobility, I rest my case and I 100% approve. As for Isshin is rather powerful than Rukia, you missing the point, during the many years Isshin reside in Karakura Town, his massive reiatsu was never once detected by one Soul Reaper except for Kisuke. :p

Tsukisama
June 02, 2008, 06:45 PM
The question is could Isshin be a part of a great noble house?

Ichigo and his sisters are a part of the Kurosaki's heritage and if their father is nobility, I rest my case and I 100% approve. As for Isshin is rather powerful than Rukia, you missing the point, during the many years Isshin reside in Karakura Town, his massive reiatsu was never once detected by one Soul Reaper except for Kisuke. :p

Okay, so your position is that you believe that Isshin is a member of the one of the four great noble clans. Thank you for clearly stating it. I am not sure how you have "rested your case" but whatever. (Yuzu and Karin are Isshin's children and Ichigo's sisters; so, obviously if they are related to the nobility, then they would be too, but I was only mentioning Isshin and Ichigo because their names appear in the title.)

We do not know that Kisuke has detected Isshin's massive reiastu while he is in his gigai. It seems that Isshin received his gigai from Kisuke; so, obviously Kisuke would know that he is a shinigami. How does no one from SS having detected Isshin's powers as a shinigami add to the discussion of the Isshin and Ichigo (and also Yuzu and Karin if you feel it's necessary to mention them) being related to the nobility?

lordHokage
June 02, 2008, 07:19 PM
Okay, so your position is that you believe that Isshin is a member of the one of the four great noble clans. Thank you for clearly stating it. I am not sure how you have "rested your case" but whatever. (Yuzu and Karin are Isshin's children and Ichigo's sisters; so, obviously if they are related to the nobility, then they would be too, but I was only mentioning Isshin and Ichigo because their names appear in the title.)

We do not know that Kisuke has detected Isshin's massive reiastu while he is in his gigai. It seems that Isshin received his gigai from Kisuke; so, obviously Kisuke would know that he is a shinigami. How does no one from SS having detected Isshin's powers as a shinigami add to the discussion of the Isshin and Ichigo (and also Yuzu and Karin if you feel it's necessary to mention them) being related to the nobility?


I am not sure whether Isshin is a member of one of the four great noble clans but the possibility is there. I only mentioned Yuzu and Karin because they are Kurosaki’s. If Isshin is nobility, he has political powers and whatever he says goes, no questions asked by General Yamamoto. :D

Tsukisama
June 02, 2008, 07:39 PM
I am not sure whether Isshin is a member of one of the four great noble clans but the possibility is there.

I agree. There is definitely the possiblity that Isshin is a member of one of those clans, but I am currently of the opinion (just an opinion, not claiming to be necessarily correct) that he is not.


I only mentioned Yuzu and Karin because they are Kurosaki’s.

The reason I questioned why you brought the sisters up was because they don't really add anything to the discussion. The OP suggested that Isshin could be a member of one of the four great noble families as a way to explain Ichigo's abnormally strong spiritual powers. That is why only those two Kurosaki family members are mentioned in the title of the thread.

Yuzu and Karin also have spiritual abilities, but they have never exhibited spiritual powers on the level of Ichigo (or Isshin). This is not to say that Ichigo's little sisters are not important or will never develop strong spiritual powers when they are older, but mentioning them neither supports or weakens the claim that Isshin could be related to one of the four great noble families like Ichigo's amazing spiritual abilities do.


If Isshin is nobility, he has political powers and whatever he says goes, no questions asked by General Yamamoto. :D

I don't think that the four great noble clans have higher authority than General Yamamoto. They hold impressive sway in Seireitei social circles and even hold some sway in the SS army because of their history of impressive skills, but even the four great noble clans like the Kuchiki and Shihouin do not hold more authority than Yamamoto. (I am sure he would at least listen to them given their status, but they probably can't just dictate to their whims.)

ryanzokuken
June 04, 2008, 04:10 AM
i'm sure that this theory has been stated already, i'm just too lazy to look through all the posts.

but i believe Ishiin may be of the Shiba clan. for a couple reasons.

1) Nobody in SS recognizes the name "Kurosaki" when dealing with Ichigo. So of course Ishiin must have changed his name upon coming to the human world. if he used to be a captain, and his name was the same, they would all of course recognize the name Kurosaki when encountering Ichigo.

2) Ishiin has the dark haired, rough look that the Shiba all seem to share.

3) It would explain Ichigo's resemblance to Kaien, which, need you be reminded, has been mentioned and hinted at several times. i don't think they'd make it a big deal for nothing.

4) whatever it was that dishonored the Shiba clan, there's a good chance it could be the same thing or at least related to whatever reason that Ishiin left SS, lost his powers, and started a normal, human life.


and 5) it would bring Ichigo, the main character, to a position of more importance, rather than just being some random, lowly human teenager who stumbled upon shinigami powers and became super powerful.

lordHokage
June 04, 2008, 08:43 AM
I don't think that the four great noble clans have higher authority than General Yamamoto. They hold impressive sway in Seireitei social circles and even hold some sway in the SS army because of their history of impressive skills, but even the four great noble clans like the Kuchiki and Shihouin do not hold more authority than Yamamoto. (I am sure he would at least listen to them given their status, but they probably can't just dictate to their whims.)


The Byakaya had the last word on whether his little sister should live or died not General Yamamoto. :blink



Nobody in SS recognizes the name "Kurosaki" when dealing with Ichigo. So of course Ishiin must have changed his name upon coming to the human world. if he used to be a captain, and his name was the same, they would all of course recognize the name Kurosaki when encountering Ichigo.


I totally agree. :D

Tsukisama
June 07, 2008, 04:41 PM
The Byakaya had the last word on whether his little sister should live or died not General Yamamoto. :blink

How do you figure that? :confused I remember Ukitake asking Byakuya whether he was going to protest Central 46's decision, but that is about it. Nowhere was it said that Byakuya had final authority on the matter.

lordHokage
June 09, 2008, 09:30 AM
How do you figure that? :confused I remember Ukitake asking Byakuya whether he was going to protest Central 46's decision, but that is about it. Nowhere was it said that Byakuya had final authority on the matter.


Byakuya couldn't afford to break the rules again, he already broken it twice. :D

You wanted to know… the reason for my support of Rukia’s death. One, who commits a crime, must suffer the consequences. If one is sentenced to death, the execution must take place. Those are...the rules (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/167/08/ ). The Kuchiki family is one of the four noble families. We are the role models for all Shinigami. If we do not obey the rules. Who will? (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/167/09/ ). When you were sentenced to death… I was dumbfounded… The oath to my parents to follow and defend the rules, or… the promise to Hisana to protect her sister… Which one should I keep…? Which one should I keep...? (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/179/16/ ).

Tsukisama
June 09, 2008, 12:19 PM
Byakuya couldn't afford to break the rules again, he already broken it twice. :D

You wanted to know… the reason for my support of Rukia’s death. One, who commits a crime, must suffer the consequences. If one is sentenced to death, the execution must take place. Those are...the rules (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/167/08/ ). The Kuchiki family is one of the four noble families. We are the role models for all Shinigami. If we do not obey the rules. Who will? (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/167/09/ ). When you were sentenced to death… I was dumbfounded… The oath to my parents to follow and defend the rules, or… the promise to Hisana to protect her sister… Which one should I keep…? Which one should I keep...? (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/179/16/ ).

Right. He decided not to go against the decisions of Central 46, because those are the rules. He could have defied them like Ukitake and Shunsui, but again he would still be breaking the rules. He did not have the authority to overturn the decision; so, he decided to follow the rules rather than break them.

lordHokage
June 09, 2008, 01:16 PM
Right. He decided not to go against the decisions of Central 46, because those are the rules. He could have defied them like Ukitake and Shunsui, but again he would still be breaking the rules. He did not have the authority to overturn the decision; so, he decided to follow the rules rather than break them.


I am not disagreeing with you. Whether or not Byakuya had the authority to overturn the decision, my guess he didn't had the willpower to go against his family. :D

pelias
June 10, 2008, 12:10 AM
If this goes like that, the shiba clan is not a noble house, what means that in the begining there where five noble houses, and shiba was the most or at least as strong powerful than byakuya,, that seems to be the strongest so far, the thing they where implied on, that could be the hollow thing, of course, desacredited them and put them into a clan position rather than a noble house, that's what i thing, however, i would be more please with Ichigo being a descendet of the king or something, only that would explain his unique and overwhelming sterng PS: Sorry for my English , I speak Spanish

frozen18ice
July 06, 2008, 09:20 PM
i was rewatching the bleach anime episode 41 and i noticed the part when ichigo first met with ukitake when he flew with yorichi's flying thingy there was something about his face that almost seem that he recognized ichigo as someone from noble house

Tsukisama
July 06, 2008, 09:53 PM
i was rewatching the bleach anime episode 41 and i noticed the part when ichigo first met with ukitake when he flew with yorichi's flying thingy there was something about his face that almost seem that he recognized ichigo as someone from noble house

Ukitake meant that Ichigo looks like Kaien of the Shiba clan, Ukitake's deceased lieutenant. Even Rukia has made reference to their similar appearances. This does not necessarily mean that they are related, but there is likely some connection between the two.

frozen18ice
July 06, 2008, 10:51 PM
nod, nod,:) yup if there are poeple that would know isshin its one of these people ( yamamoto, ukitake, koryaku, unohana, aizen, yorichi, well we know urahara knows him well.

vongola_x
July 07, 2008, 07:39 PM
there was something about his face that almost seem that he recognized ichigo as someone from noble house

Well, Ichigo does look like his deceased Vice-Captain...

igotthegoods
July 07, 2008, 09:40 PM
Well, Ichigo does look like his deceased Vice-Captain...

i think this has been sufficiently established. let's move the conversation on, shall we? :)

thornofcarrion
June 08, 2010, 05:53 AM
Since Isshin appeared in FKT and fought Aizen, I have been thinking his link with SS. Lets not theorized how he ended up in KT. Anyways, we still have no info about 2 of the noble houses. The members of these two houses, may be the one responsible for defending the King and his realm. And Isshin was a member of one of these houses. IMO, these 2 unknowns houses may be higher than the rest. Speculating off course.