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KaNx
May 29, 2008, 11:40 PM
Bleach -100 is out!

Bleach -100 by SleepyFans (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32000)

Check it out, discuss and predict away!

Curufinwe
May 29, 2008, 11:52 PM
omg i cant believe kudo will leave it like that i think my brain will exploded !

i want more gaiden >_<

Spike Vamp King
May 29, 2008, 11:56 PM
Looks like only one more chapter with the next title "End".

Nevermind they all say "End", so since he didn't write the next chapter's name i guess it is over.

Cyanilurus
May 29, 2008, 11:58 PM
He very much can leave us at this and move on to current events... *insert his evil laughter wherever you want* I really had a kind of feeling that "this is the end"... I hope I' m wrong though, and because I usually am, I predict that we jump back to present. And if not, then it would be really nice to see what Urahara is doing.

Spike Vamp King
May 30, 2008, 12:01 AM
He very much can leave us at this and move on to current events... *insert his evil laughter wherever you want* I really had a kind of feeling that "this is the end"... I hope I' m wrong though, and because I usually am, I predict that we jump back to present. And if not, then it would be really nice to see what Urahara is doing.

I agree we need to see what happened with Urahara and Tessai. We need to know why they got kicked out. Not the usual deductive reasoning but actually show us.

Cyanilurus
May 30, 2008, 12:09 AM
Running, running, run, run, run, and then Tessai' s long coat gets caught by a branch... :P
Was it ever mentioned WHEN they got exiled? And by the way, Aizen had his sword with him now, so what about him being seen by Shunsui?

garaa89
May 30, 2008, 12:25 AM
What I don’t get is if aizen, tousen, gin did all this thing 100 years ago them how come they were still in the 13 squads until recently. I am sure there is going to be another chapter we can’t end in a cliff hanger.

Ceestar
May 30, 2008, 12:26 AM
The end of this chapter had me screaming, what a great chapter we got this week!
Uwah Ise-fukutaichou!! She was so adorable!! I want a little sister like that or something! That was quite a sad page too, when Lisa was knocked down.

Hmm... I find it funny that even though ever since this started we knew Aizen was evil and yet this still came as a shock to me. Well maybe not a shock, but it still hit me hard. With Aizen not that much but I didn't expect to see Tousen.
Oh and I have to say this, my GOD Tousen's been through a lot of hair styles! That's what... 4 now? This one, the one from when he first met Komamura-taichou, the one from the beginning of the series and then another once he entered Huenco Mundo. Yeesh.

And... I wanted to be angry at Gin because.. well just because, but I can't help but look at that page and think of how utterly adorable and small he is.

This was such a good chapter, there actually does still seem to be a bit to get through, but isn't next week the final flashback chapter? Or this week? We still haven't seen what happens to Kisuke and I can only assume that's going to be covered too. Well I eagerly await next week's chapter.

Shiro-kun
May 30, 2008, 12:29 AM
Hopefully this gaiden doesnt end in a huge cliffhanger :darn (..Well i dont think it well)

So now we know who is behind it all once again its Aizen behind the scenes , but i cant help but feel that there someone else involved in this besides Aizen.

btw Shunsui is more of a pervert than i first thought :tem

Wire
May 30, 2008, 01:03 AM
Cliffhangers like this are just wrong. :(

Sidenote: So its okay to send women out on dangerous life/death missions but not okay to fight them? They both sound pretty rough to me. Makes no sense.

den077
May 30, 2008, 01:05 AM
What I don’t get is if aizen, tousen, gin did all this thing 100 years ago them how come they were still in the 13 squads until recently. I am sure there is going to be another chapter we can’t end in a cliff hanger.

Well knowing Aizen he probably frames Kensei and the others to take the blame for whatever he did:eyeroll

Shiro-kun
May 30, 2008, 01:13 AM
Well knowing Aizen he probably frames Kensei and the others to take the blame for whatever he did:eyeroll

That well explain one reason why the others are no longer a part of Soul Society (this reason plus them being vizards)

someguy0830
May 30, 2008, 01:25 AM
Hiyori's reaction has me thinking this is just the beginning of their transformation, not the end result as Ichigo's full hollow form was. They probably figure out how to control later on, hence their ability to time it.

iyung
May 30, 2008, 01:47 AM
can some one please explain how aizen is doing this and how long has tousen been in soul society . how long has aizen had every one dancing like puppets around him

Cyanilurus
May 30, 2008, 01:47 AM
If I remember correctly, Hiyori needed the longest time to get back to being herself, about an 68 minutes or so? But that would also mean that Aizen should know about them converting back, as an hour isn' t really that long of a time... But then Ichigo was totally beat up after recovering...
I wonder if they counted from this "beginning of transformation" or when they were already full hollows.
And also, how in the world did they know how many SECONDS they were after the transformation?

bighawke5
May 30, 2008, 03:20 AM
OH wow this chapter is full of interesting bits
now we know it was aizen behind those weird experiments and now the captains on the scene who know the truth, wont be heard by the gotei 13 since they will be considered criminals so aizen's plan was flawless.

i'm wondering though...can aizen defend himself against them on the edge of transforming to vaizards? i mean if he can then he must've been pretty strong for a long time...showing up to them while they are down doesnt mean one or the rest wont get up and go berserk on him...

but o well i guess he survives this so he does beat them somehow and they probably try to tell gotei 13 what happened but are banished instead and then urahara trusting in his subordinate sees how unfair that is and that helps his decision to leave soul society in addition to the commotion he'll probably cause by having created the hyoguyoku.
when does isshin come in all this because im pretty sure that the vaizards get banished not too long afterward but next chapter might be the last pendulum chapter so he might not be shown


what angered me though is Toussen the guy speaks of loyalty and such things but is a LITERAL BACK STABBER!!! cant wait till SOMEONE CUTS HIS THROAT RAW!!!!! and kicks the life out of him!!NO WONDER THE VAIZARDS ALL HATE SHINIGAMIS

drakend
May 30, 2008, 03:30 AM
what angered me though is Toussen the guy speaks of loyalty and such things but is a LITERAL BACK STABBER!!! cant wait till SOMEONE CUTS HIS THROAT RAW!!!!! and kicks the life out of him!!NO WONDER THE VAIZARDS ALL HATE SHINIGAMIS
Yeah I'm with you on this: Tousen is such an hypocritical bastard... he talks about justice and other crap while he's the lowest bastard around bastards like Aizen. He managed to become even worse than Aizen and that's all said: Aizen is an evil manipulator and doesn't hide the fact. Tousen, on the other hand, thinks to be some sort of knight of justice or some other crap along these lines. He's one of the worst characters I've met in my manga reading experience and I hope he will get a very painful death.
On the other hand I feel lots of sympathy for Aizen: he's just a plain bastard who manipulates, thus uses, anyone who is convenient to him. After their usefulness stop he throws them away like garbage! :D

meow79
May 30, 2008, 03:42 AM
Yeah I'm with you on this: Tousen is such an hypocritical bastard... he talks about justice and other crap while he's the lowest bastard around bastards like Aizen. He managed to become even worse than Aizen and that's all said: Aizen is an evil manipulator and doesn't hide the fact. Tousen, on the other hand, thinks to be some sort of knight of justice or some other crap along these lines. He's one of the worst characters I've met in my manga reading experience and I hope he will get a very painful death.
On the other hand I feel lots of sympathy for Aizen: he's just a plain bastard who manipulates, thus uses, anyone who is convenient to him. After their usefulness stop he throws them away like garbage! :D

yup thats pure evil for u mate. From wat i see aizen is a extremely power mad

as for shijin i think he was alot more powerful than aizen thats y he only appear after shjin is injured

as for how aizen remains unaccused.... it pretty simple rem wat his shikai power is, he can place infomation of watever he like so he just release and no one will even he have released
[hr]
Plus if u guys notice Tousen is using bankai to take out Rose,Lisa and Love this show that Aizen and tousen have already Achived bankai but just hiding it. I suspect that Gin also have achived Bankai

wrstljr
May 30, 2008, 03:42 AM
Holy crap Shunsui is the/a bad guy...it all makes perfect sense now.

Just go back and look at his conversations with Aizen over this gaiden, not to mention all of his other actions and cryptic speeches...he even wanted to stop the execution earlier which basically helped Aizen...then fought Yama when everything else was going on to occupy him. Hmm i wonder

hdx514
May 30, 2008, 03:58 AM
i'm wondering though...can aizen defend himself against them on the edge of transforming to vaizards? i mean if he can then he must've been pretty strong for a long time...showing up to them while they are down doesnt mean one or the rest wont get up and go berserk on him...

aizen doesn't seem worried at all because his shikai and tousen's bankai are perfect for taking on those berserked captains. he could easily put up an illusion, sit around and sip tea while they knock themselves out, power is a non-issue. i don't think the hollow vaizard were that powerful anyway considering that hacchi's level 99 spell put kensei down no problem while ichigo was able to break free from the same spell put on him by hacchi's master.

tousen was never loyal to kensei from the start. he used his unique ability and maybe aizen's aid to get around kensei's defense, when kensei was in a situation where he had more men, was fully alert and ready for battle. i consider that fair. a competent captain should be able to respond promptly to changing situations and lead his men well. kensei's not one of them.


as for shijin i think he was alot more powerful than aizen thats y he only appear after shjin is injured


right...aizen was so scared of facing shinji and other vaizard captains that he had to send his boy tousen in to own them.

shinji got cut ONCE by hiyori, a mere VC level hybrid. he should be able to shrug it off if he's truly the powerhouse. remember what happened after nnoitra cut kenpachi for the 100th time? http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/310/08/

Inkovic
May 30, 2008, 04:13 AM
I hate this chapter. I hate what this series has become.

I just...just wish something new and exciting will happen in Bleach.

drakend
May 30, 2008, 04:33 AM
I hate this chapter. I hate what this series has become.

I just...just wish something new and exciting will happen in Bleach.
Don't read it then, nobody is having you doing it against your will! :D

Great Hyourinmaru
May 30, 2008, 05:08 AM
The magnificent chapter! First we have found out that all the same behind all it stood Aizen. Secondly it appears that Tousen was for Aizen from the very beginning (though till now not clearly as such "pacifist" has gone to Aizen XD), and thirdly we have found out about improbable abilities Hachi to kido.

P.S.
I don't want that flashbacks came to an end.:(

Yabe
May 30, 2008, 05:22 AM
More TBTP :darn !

...

Besides, I've expected Kubo to reveal something related to Isshin. This can't be the end just yet!

Zeus-Tails
May 30, 2008, 06:05 AM
This is the end of the Gaiden. I think they will go back to the present and any loose information we still need about the Gaiden will be viewed in a flashback DURING the present battle.

Tsukisama
May 30, 2008, 07:54 AM
I really enjoyed this chapter, especially the beginning with Nanao.


Running, running, run, run, run, and then Tessai' s long coat gets caught by a branch... :P
Was it ever mentioned WHEN they got exiled? And by the way, Aizen had his sword with him now, so what about him being seen by Shunsui?

It was never mentioned before when the vizards were exiled. (Indeed, practically nothing about their past was known before this gaiden.) Aizen's shikai does not just create illusions out of his sword, but he can create illusions off anything even air seemingly.


What I don’t get is if aizen, tousen, gin did all this thing 100 years ago them how come they were still in the 13 squads until recently. I am sure there is going to be another chapter we can’t end in a cliff hanger.

Like mentioned before, the vizards either did not have a chance to tell about Aizen's plot (knowing that they would be persecuted by SS and fleeing) or they tried to tell but were not believed because of their status as vizards and Aizen's alibi.


The end of this chapter had me screaming, what a great chapter we got this week!
Uwah Ise-fukutaichou!! She was so adorable!! I want a little sister like that or something! That was quite a sad page too, when Lisa was knocked down.

Hmm... I find it funny that even though ever since this started we knew Aizen was evil and yet this still came as a shock to me. Well maybe not a shock, but it still hit me hard. With Aizen not that much but I didn't expect to see Tousen.
Oh and I have to say this, my GOD Tousen's been through a lot of hair styles! That's what... 4 now? This one, the one from when he first met Komamura-taichou, the one from the beginning of the series and then another once he entered Huenco Mundo. Yeesh.

And... I wanted to be angry at Gin because.. well just because, but I can't help but look at that page and think of how utterly adorable and small he is.

This was such a good chapter, there actually does still seem to be a bit to get through, but isn't next week the final flashback chapter? Or this week? We still haven't seen what happens to Kisuke and I can only assume that's going to be covered too. Well I eagerly await next week's chapter.

I completely agree. Nanao was so cute! :tem The page where Nanao says that she wants to read with Lisa, then Shunsui tells her she'll be back in the morning really was sad. Scenes like this show just how much people in SS really did care about the vizards, making their exile and scorn even more tragic. It is also interesting to see another young shinigami modeling herself/himself after one of the vizards (in reference to Shuuhei and Kensei). Now we know sort of why Nanao and Lisa look so similar; Nanao looked up to Lisa. (I'm glad Kubo explained this, because I used to think that it was just for some weird fetish of Shunsui.)

I was not surprised that Aizen was the culprit. I was also not surprised Gin (you're right, he's such an adorable little sociopath :)) and Tousen was involved. The only surprising part for me is that Tousen was the masked guy in Kensei's squad.

Kubo could end the gaiden this week, but I think there is one more chapter left (or one and part of another if Kubo wants to return to the present at the end of a chapter). Kubo made a point of showing Urahara leaving to go to the scene, and so I think that he will at least show that, but I am not too sure about all of the other stuff like SS's reaction, the sentencing of the vizards, and Urahara's flight into exile.


Hiyori's reaction has me thinking this is just the beginning of their transformation, not the end result as Ichigo's full hollow form was. They probably figure out how to control later on, hence their ability to time it.

I agree. Kensei seems the most transformed (likely the first), followed by Mashiro who seems not as transformed (has mask and hollow-esque legs but not a full-on hollow yet), and now Hiyori (just a mask).


can some one please explain how aizen is doing this and how long has tousen been in soul society . how long has aizen had every one dancing like puppets around him

It is unknown currently how Aizen is doing this, and all we can do is estimate how long Tousen has been in SS. He probably was in SS at the start of the gaiden (110 years ago), perhaps still in the 5th division or already transferred into the 9th (in which case he would probably have been in SS for at least a little longer than that). Aizen has had people dancing like puppets since the beginning. Remember that up until he revealed his true nature in the SS arc, everyone thought that his zanpakutou was a flowing-water type; so he must have been deceiving people even when he was rising up the ranks in the 5th division.


If I remember correctly, Hiyori needed the longest time to get back to being herself, about an 68 minutes or so? But that would also mean that Aizen should know about them converting back, as an hour isn' t really that long of a time... But then Ichigo was totally beat up after recovering...
I wonder if they counted from this "beginning of transformation" or when they were already full hollows.
And also, how in the world did they know how many SECONDS they were after the transformation?

Aizen probably does not know yet about them transforming back. He has been experimenting with this, as evident in -104. He will likely observe them under the guise of one of his illusions once they have all transformed and then witness the transformation back into a shinigami form.

They probably count from when their masks first form. I don't know how exactly they are coming up with these times, but they are somehow. (This may be one of those things that you just have to accept from Kubo with a grain of salt.)


i'm wondering though...can aizen defend himself against them on the edge of transforming to vaizards? i mean if he can then he must've been pretty strong for a long time...showing up to them while they are down doesnt mean one or the rest wont get up and go berserk on him...

when does isshin come in all this because im pretty sure that the vaizards get banished not too long afterward but next chapter might be the last pendulum chapter so he might not be shown


what angered me though is Toussen the guy speaks of loyalty and such things but is a LITERAL BACK STABBER!!! cant wait till SOMEONE CUTS HIS THROAT RAW!!!!! and kicks the life out of him!!NO WONDER THE VAIZARDS ALL HATE SHINIGAMIS

Aizen can use his illusions to hide himself from them once they've transformed. They will be wild, raging hollows. They primally attack whatever opponent that they can find, and Aizen can make sure he is not found.

Isshin probably is not going to show up, which is perfectly fine since adding him now would just be a mistake on Kubo's part.

Everyone needs to remember how Tousen defines justice. He defines it as the path of least bloodshed, not as loyalty or honor. He believes that uniting everyone and everything under one ruler (Aizen) will bring about a peaceful world. If he has to kill a few people along the way, then in his mind they are just sacrifices for the cause.


Holy crap Shunsui is the/a bad guy...it all makes perfect sense now.

Just go back and look at his conversations with Aizen over this gaiden, not to mention all of his other actions and cryptic speeches...he even wanted to stop the execution earlier which basically helped Aizen...then fought Yama when everything else was going on to occupy him. Hmm i wonder

Shunsui has been acting rather sketchy at times, but I think that was Kubo using him as yet another red herring. I think that Shunsui going to check where Aizen is shows that Shunsui is very perceptive. He could tell from his conversation with him in the start of the gaiden (when Aizen was trying to find out about the royal guard) that Aizen was a little suspicious and that was probably why he wanted to check to just make sure he was not up to something (since Aizen is probably one of the only remotely shady guys he could think of at the time).


aizen doesn't seem worried at all because his shikai and tousen's bankai are perfect for taking on those berserked captains. he could easily put up an illusion, sit around and sip tea while they knock themselves out, power is a non-issue. i don't think the hollow vaizard were that powerful anyway considering that hacchi's level 99 spell put kensei down no problem while ichigo was able to break free from the same spell put on him by hacchi's master.

tousen was never loyal to kensei from the start. he used his unique ability and maybe aizen's aid to get around kensei's defense, when kensei was in a situation where he had more men, was fully alert and ready for battle. i consider that fair. a competent captain should be able to respond promptly to changing situations and lead his men well. kensei's not one of them.

right...aizen was so scared of facing shinji and other vaizard captains that he had to send his boy tousen in to own them.

shinji got cut ONCE by hiyori, a mere VC level hybrid. he should be able to shrug it off if he's truly the powerhouse. remember what happened after nnoitra cut kenpachi for the 100th time? http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/310/08/

The vizards do seem rather powerful to me. Kensei being held by Hacchi's bakudou just means that Kensei was not raging like Ichigo (and possibly that he is less powerful). We don't know how long that bakudou will hold him.

I think that you are being a little harsh on them. Kensei is a competent captain, but he was just a little taken aback that one of his men was the attacker, which is reasonable. Shinji being seriously injured by vizard Hiyori can be explained by Shinji being caught off-guard and as a testament to the level of raw power a vizard has. (He may not have expected her to become as powerful as she did.)


More TBTP :darn !

What is TBTP? :confused
[hr]

Besides, I've expected Kubo to reveal something related to Isshin. This can't be the end just yet!

This gaiden is not going to be about Isshin. It's time for everyone to just accept it and move on. We will learn about him eventually, but not here.

drakend
May 30, 2008, 08:22 AM
@Tsukisama: You can't be more right about Isshin. We already know Isshin IS NOT RELATED TO THE VAIZARD IN ANY WAY because:
1) Shinji didn't know Isshin's reiatsu at all in Karakura Town. As a person's reiatsu is like a signature it means Shinji DOES NOT KNOW Isshin.
2) Isshin, on the other hands, DOES NOT KNOW anything about the Vaizards as well. He only know vague things and nothing more.

So we can safely assume Isshin's history is totally unreleated to the Vaizards' one. People whining about Isshin not appearing in the gaiden is getting quite annoying.

Yabe
May 30, 2008, 08:51 AM
@Tsukisama: It's just my short form of Turn Back The Pendulum. Everybody else's using 'the gaiden', I just know...

@drakend: woah, don't get annoyed, it's okay Isshin won't be in, but:


2) Isshin, on the other hands, DOES NOT KNOW anything about the Vaizards as well. He only know vague things and nothing more.

But I thought that the other shinigami in SS that time also won't get to know about the Vizards, will they? Because it seemed that in the final battle with Ichigo, when he had transformed to Hollow, Byakuya seemed surprised and lost of explanation to what Ichigo had become. Also, until now I don't think anybody knows about the Vizards' existence (though I doubt about Aizen and his close company) except Ichigo and he has never told anyone. Orihime saw him transformed once but still she doesn't know what to call it.

jimmassew
May 30, 2008, 08:52 AM
is "vizardification" transmitted as a virus through wounds (so shinji'd be next one trasforming)?

drakend
May 30, 2008, 09:06 AM
But I thought that the other shinigami in SS that time also won't get to know about the Vizards, will they? Because it seemed that in the final battle with Ichigo, when he had transformed to Hollow, Byakuya seemed surprised and lost of explanation to what Ichigo had become. Also, until now I don't think anybody knows about the Vizards' existence (though I doubt about Aizen and his close company) except Ichigo and he has never told anyone. Orihime saw him transformed once but still she doesn't know what to call it.
You forgot Rukia, but btw in SS Vaizards' existence may have been kept secret somehow, covering what happened with some fake explanation like betrayal of the missing captains or something like that. It's not like Yamamoto and Central 46 ever brought for smartness... :D
On the other hand Aizen is becoming my evil guy model... he's so evil that he is almost nice! :D

sk.nite
May 30, 2008, 09:29 AM
Where are Cirucci and Ryuken? XD

There will be at least two more chapters. We still have to see what will happen with Urahara and Tessai when they arrive at the scene of the crime. Maybe Aizen will hand him his sword and ask him to put some extra fingerprints in it ;)

Cyanilurus
May 30, 2008, 10:38 AM
Or maybe we will be ripped of these wee little details just for the tease. :) I honestly am not so sure about those two chapters at least... but yes, it would be nice to see them. And how the actual Vizard transformation happens.

Caligumenthe
May 30, 2008, 10:43 AM
In chapter -104, Tosen is the only character who isn't shown to be surprised by the prescence of the hollow. Chapter -103 reveals the names of the rest of Kensei's squad excepting Tosen, and when his squad is slain, it doesn't seem like Tosen's body is physically there (blood exists, but no clear defined outline for his physical form).


When their squad is attacked, it seems like Tosen used ban-kai on Kensei. The page prior to when Kensei is impaled is here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.6/18/).

His comment at the very bottom and the enveloping darkness on the panel left and above make it sound as if he was struck by Tosen's unique ban-kai. And as in Zaraki's battle, Kensei may have understood who it was (regaining visibility) because of his contact with Tosen's sword.

sk.nite
May 30, 2008, 10:59 AM
In chapter -104, Tosen is the only character who isn't shown to be surprised by the prescence of the hollow. Chapter -103 reveals the names of the rest of Kensei's squad excepting Tosen, and when his squad is slain, it doesn't seem like Tosen's body is physically there (blood exists, but no clear defined outline for his physical form).


When their squad is attacked, it seems like Tosen used ban-kai on Kensei. The page prior to when Kensei is impaled is here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.6/18/).

His comment at the very bottom and the enveloping darkness on the panel left and above make it sound as if he was struck by Tosen's unique ban-kai. And as in Zaraki's battle, Kensei may have understood who it was (regaining visibility) because of his contact with Tosen's sword.

I still think it was Aizen, but I can't say it with certainty. Nor can you. I guess we'll never know for sure, Kubo doesn't bother to explain these kind of detalis. The only thing we can assure is that it was eihter Aizen, Tousen or Gin.
[hr]

Or maybe we will be ripped of these wee little details just for the tease. :) I honestly am not so sure about those two chapters at least... but yes, it would be nice to see them. And how the actual Vizard transformation happens.

I think it would be rather illogical for Kubo not to develop this situation a little more. Urahara has been more or less the main character in this gaiden, so the last chapter should show the clash between him and Aizen, or at least how did things end up for him.

Caligumenthe
May 30, 2008, 11:06 AM
The only thing we can assure is that it was eihter Aizen, Tousen or Gin.


That's true. There's also the possibility that Tosen's ban-kai is still primitive, as this entire incident occurred a significant time ago.

I just found the lack of details about that particular member of the squad interesting.

Cyanilurus
May 30, 2008, 11:21 AM
I think it would be rather illogical for Kubo not to develop this situation a little more. Urahara has been more or less the main character in this gaiden, so the last chapter should show the clash between him and Aizen, or at least how did things end up for him.

Kubo can just end wherever he wants, and in my opinion, a cliffhanger like this could happen just as well as those couple more chapters... which, by the way, both of us wish for. :)

patedecarne
May 30, 2008, 11:53 AM
No comments about the chapter, perfect!!!

the part where Shunsui was telling to Nanao that Lisa would come back safety while she was falling was perfect and dramatic, Kubo is the man!!

Hacchi using Kin so easily was great too, he's very powerful!

I'm getting crazy with this gaiden, what else could happen???

hajialibaig
May 30, 2008, 01:13 PM
I knew it all along that Aizen was behind all of this. Anyway, this seems to be the end of the gaiden, ending on a cliffhanger, how predictable. On with the main battle!

Doombot
May 30, 2008, 02:00 PM
I just have to say that Aizen is a much eviler badass with his glasses on.

TheChosenOne
May 30, 2008, 02:02 PM
No comments about the chapter, perfect!!!

Fully agree, an amazing chapter. :kkthumbs


Hacchi using Kin so easily was great too, he's very powerful!I wonder if this means Aizen hasn't hit his limit in Kido reckoning he wasn't able to utilize the full power of a level 90 spell without incantation. :confused

I loved this chapter, the Gaiden is undoubtedly Kubo's best work since SS arc. Was great to see little Nanao with that big book and talking to Shun, I wonder if Shun had any doubts about Aizen considering the ominous look he gives him, did Aizen use his illusion. I wonder if Kubo plans to explain the vaizard tranformation process in the coming chapter, hopefully he does. :)

EndoAnima
May 30, 2008, 02:03 PM
Shunsui had a feeling about Aizen, seems he went to look for him late at night, but Aizen already had him trapped in his technique. He saw an illusion of Aizen and shrugged it off. Now Aizen has an alibi.

I'm thinking that quite possibly the vaizard situation is going to end up with Aizen claiming to be the hero and pointing to the Vaizards Urahara and Tessai as conspirators and using "Dark Kidou" or perhaps he'll reveal the Hgouyoko (sorry for spelling, too lazy to look up). He'll call out Urahara on making Hgouyoko and take credit for uncovering this "treachery". I think Yama being the elite rule stickler that he is will banish urahara and tessai for disobeying orders and other reasons I've stated above.

Kubo did a good job with Tousen. I had no clue he was with them the whole time.
Also, the scene where Kensei discovers Tousen is "dead" also was done well to throw some more doubt into the equation for us.

Guess we know a lot of the real story behind this incident now.

Zangetsugetsyou
May 30, 2008, 02:14 PM
I have a major problem with Tousen using Bankai in this latest chapter so early on.

1. Didn't Tousen take the sword he currently has in the present from one of his squad leaders in a vow to fight for justice on their part?

2. If he did happen to take it this early, how in the world is he able to communicate with a sword that isn't even his so early on in his shinigami career?

3. Who did he take his sword from, how did they die, and where does that fit into this current storyline in the gaiden?

This has me a little frustrated. It doesn't seem to make sense. Unless of course I am missing something here. I don't remember the chapter where he takes his sword from someone he looks up to, but how in the world can he get here at this Bankai level when it seems he did not even acquire the sword at this point in time.

erik-the-red
May 30, 2008, 02:15 PM
In chapter -104, Tosen is the only character who isn't shown to be surprised by the prescence of the hollow. Chapter -103 reveals the names of the rest of Kensei's squad excepting Tosen, and when his squad is slain, it doesn't seem like Tosen's body is physically there (blood exists, but no clear defined outline for his physical form).


When their squad is attacked, it seems like Tosen used ban-kai on Kensei. The page prior to when Kensei is impaled is here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.6/18/).

His comment at the very bottom and the enveloping darkness on the panel left and above make it sound as if he was struck by Tosen's unique ban-kai. And as in Zaraki's battle, Kensei may have understood who it was (regaining visibility) because of his contact with Tosen's sword.

I like this explanation. It hadn't occurred to me when I first read that chapter, but it makes sense.

The Last Uchiha
May 30, 2008, 03:14 PM
I'm hoping they continue the Gaiden for another 4-5 chapters. It's getting better and better.

hdx514
May 30, 2008, 03:20 PM
The vizards do seem rather powerful to me. Kensei being held by Hacchi's bakudou just means that Kensei was not raging like Ichigo (and possibly that he is less powerful). We don't know how long that bakudou will hold him.

I think that you are being a little harsh on them. Kensei is a competent captain, but he was just a little taken aback that one of his men was the attacker, which is reasonable. Shinji being seriously injured by vizard Hiyori can be explained by Shinji being caught off-guard and as a testament to the level of raw power a vizard has. (He may not have expected her to become as powerful as she did.)

eh i think we can safely assume that kensei's gone completely berserk, and he was in full hollow form. on the other hand, ichigo had only the mask, and regained his conscious soon after. plus, he broke free not only from bakudo 99 but also a bunch of other spells put on him by hacchi's captain.

kensei didn't realize that he was betrayed until after he got stabbed. the very fact that tousen was able to drop him and his men so easily while they were on full alert doesn't speak too highly of their competency. and it's not just kensei. this chapter showed tousen dropping love and persumably hacchi/lisa with his bankai, the same tousen 100 years later couldn't do much to kenpachi.

shinji getting caught off-guard is expected, but him lying on the ground after one slash makes him a pushover. hiyori is after all, only a VC level hybrid. i think things would've turned out very differently had yama sent senior captains or beasts like zaraki instead.


I have a major problem with Tousen using Bankai in this latest chapter so early on.

he took his current zanpakutou from the grave of some girl whom he met way back, the exact time wasn't specified, but it was before he entered the shinigami academy and the girl was not a squad leader. there's no time paradox here.

we don't know who the girl is or if she's connected in anyway to the current plot, just that she was all about peace/justice but was wasted by her husband over some argument. i think tousen realized from it that one's love for peace/justice is all useless talk which changes nothing unless one has the power to back himself up.

Splat
May 30, 2008, 03:34 PM
I have a major problem with Tousen using Bankai in this latest chapter so early on.

1. Didn't Tousen take the sword he currently has in the present from one of his squad leaders in a vow to fight for justice on their part?

2. If he did happen to take it this early, how in the world is he able to communicate with a sword that isn't even his so early on in his shinigami career?

3. Who did he take his sword from, how did they die, and where does that fit into this current storyline in the gaiden?

This has me a little frustrated. It doesn't seem to make sense. Unless of course I am missing something here. I don't remember the chapter where he takes his sword from someone he looks up to, but how in the world can he get here at this Bankai level when it seems he did not even acquire the sword at this point in time.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/09/ tousen takes his friends sword, it's not stated that she is a captain, only that she's a shinigami. There is also no time frame given so this could have taken place 100 years prior to the gaiden. Tousen is shown as part of the gotei 13 later on in komamuras flashback, but again, no time frame is given, all that we are told is that aizen is his vice captain at that time.

On an unrelated point, while i was looking for the above link i found this one, which clearly shows Tousen in his captains uniform when the kenpachi that we know defeated the old one, meaning that the kenpachi in the gaiden is the one before zaraki http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/146/02/

One thing that people seem to have overlooked that this gaiden has shown us is a clarification on the hueco mundo timeline, if aizen is doing this now, then the espada having being formed 3 or 4 years before the present story line becomes a feasible situation again.

patedecarne
May 30, 2008, 03:36 PM
I'm hoping they continue the Gaiden for another 4-5 chapters. It's getting better and better.

Probably for more 2, 3 chapters; Hiyori already had became a vaizard, then Kubo must explain Aizen true's intentions, what'll happen to Kensei and Mashiro, how Shinji and co. will become vaizards and Urahara and Tessai's roles in the catalyst;


Oh, yes, I'm forgetting about Vaizard's true motivations: if SS banned them or if they'll flee for their own will;

gold349
May 30, 2008, 03:42 PM
Holy crap Shunsui is the/a bad guy...it all makes perfect sense now.

Just go back and look at his conversations with Aizen over this gaiden, not to mention all of his other actions and cryptic speeches...he even wanted to stop the execution earlier which basically helped Aizen...then fought Yama when everything else was going on to occupy him. Hmm i wonder

Are you suggesting Shunsui is a bad guy?, how does from this chapter or previous put him in bad light, he's always been a good guy and IMHO is a good guy but slow to take the initive on things. His late night walk, past aizens place makes me think that shunsui was more like keeping a tab on aizen for some reason and maybe all the remaining captains were like him, up any way just b/c of what is happening.

bladehappy
May 30, 2008, 04:03 PM
I think Shunsui was aware that Aizen was planning something, he just wasn't sure.

seth.vicious
May 30, 2008, 04:10 PM
I think that they showed us Shunsui seeing Aizen to implement that right now Aizen is using his shikai or whatever you know-his iluison back at SS compound and the real at the fight.

I don't think Kensei and the others are "weak" just because they were stabbed by Tousen!!I mean if you think about it Zaraki is the only crazy enough person , with mad reatsu to escape it(maybe only Byakuya is smart enough to figure it out)!And by the look ot Kensei's face when he got stabbed some chapters ago , the "what the hell is this" quote was point at the black thing happening from Tousen's BanKai meaning he probably has seen it for the fist time!

Another thing:
The fist one to transform were Mashiro and Kensei , then Hiyori came and she is next , so probably Shinji shoul be next since he was the one that came fist after that.Imagine this
Shinji:"Aizne u bastard...BanKai" and then all of a sudden he transforms! :D

anonym9191
May 30, 2008, 04:12 PM
So the "flasbhack"/gaiden is over now or will there be more chapters or is it likely to be over but there has been no confirmation yet?
If there is known that this gaiden is over: Shouldn't it then be called 316 Predictions and Spoilers instead of -99 ?

So it seems that Aizen was experimenting way before already. I wonder if he was experimenting before Urahara started his research...
Futhermore, I wonder if he did this at that time already to achieve his current aim. I mean: After all he nearly just found out about those "special guards", so I don't think he has known about the "king" before that..?

purplerose_04
May 30, 2008, 04:20 PM
really the gaiden is over? it doesn't explain much.... why Urahara was also ban from soul society.. and futhermore.. if Vizard understand all this.. it been 100 year so could couldn't they prevent it? i mean there are like how many captains> and lieutenants? it doesn't make sense...

i'm more confused now..

anonym9191
May 30, 2008, 04:28 PM
I don't know but from what I read at the beginning of this thread it should be over or maximum one more chapter. That was why I was asking though.

One more thing: I wonder how Aizen will be able to achieve that the Vizard get banned. I mean after all they are more than just him and after all Aizen is just a lieutenant up-to-now. Even if he has an alibi it would be somehow strange to have so many opposing him and also there might be Urahara that will oppose him.
I think that he very likely used his hypnosis soul slayer to achieve the Vizard got banned before they were even able to tell them anything. Though I it would be very interesting to know...

Tsukisama
May 30, 2008, 05:04 PM
I still think it was Aizen, but I can't say it with certainty. Nor can you. I guess we'll never know for sure, Kubo doesn't bother to explain these kind of detalis. The only thing we can assure is that it was eihter Aizen, Tousen or Gin.

I doubt that we will see a fight between Urahara and Aizen, but it would be nice to have one or two more chapters to tie up the loose ends.


I wonder if this means Aizen hasn't hit his limit in Kido reckoning he wasn't able to utilize the full power of a level 90 spell without incantation. :confused

I don't think Aizen has probably hit his limit in kidou (or if he has, then he simply can't handle kidou in the 90s that well). My expectations in kidou for commanding officers in the Kidou Corps and a Gotei 13 captain are different, just as I would not expect a Gotei 13 captain to necessarily be as skilled in hakuda as a member of the Covert Ops. Gotei 13 captains are supposed to be well-rounded in all of the areas of shinigami combat (but not perfect), while specialist divisions like the Kidou Corps exist to handle things when top level stuff in an area is needed. Aizen probably just has not devoted enough time to mastering kidou at that level.

I am really impressed with Hachi. His kidou skills are obviously not quite as good as Tessai's (that level 99 bakudou seemed to really tire Hachi out, while Tessai did not even break a sweat), but he is still amazingly powerful and gifted.


eh i think we can safely assume that kensei's gone completely berserk, and he was in full hollow form. on the other hand, ichigo had only the mask, and regained his conscious soon after. plus, he broke free not only from bakudo 99 but also a bunch of other spells put on him by hacchi's captain.

kensei didn't realize that he was betrayed until after he got stabbed. the very fact that tousen was able to drop him and his men so easily while they were on full alert doesn't speak too highly of their competency. and it's not just kensei. this chapter showed tousen dropping love and persumably hacchi/lisa with his bankai, the same tousen 100 years later couldn't do much to kenpachi.

shinji getting caught off-guard is expected, but him lying on the ground after one slash makes him a pushover. hiyori is after all, only a VC level hybrid. i think things would've turned out very differently had yama sent senior captains or beasts like zaraki instead.

I read an interesting theory in deadberry's review (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32059) of this chapter. In it, he suggested that Ichigo broke free of his level 99 bakudou (which was actually at the second level bankin and stronger than the one Hachi used) because he did it at the stage when the mask was forming while Kensei was fully transformed into a hollow, suggesting that the full transformed hollow state is weaker than the initial partially transformed state. Whatever the reason, it is still too premature to assume that Kensei is weaker than Ichigo.

Kensei was searching for an unknown assailant. He knew the reiatsu signatures of his team and trusted them; thus he probably was not paying as much attention to the reiatsu signatures of his team and was focusing on trying to find someone else. I am not saying that Kensei was doing phenomenally or anything, but calling him "incompetent" and not a good captain seems overly harsh.

There are several reasons that could be given for why Tousen's bankai was effective on Love, Rose, Hachi, and Lisa while not on Kenpachi. The situations were totally different. Here, Tousen is just hitting them with one stab that somehow results in them transforming into vizards. With Kenpachi, Tousen was again causing non-fatal strikes, but his strikes against Kenpachi weren't transforming him into a vizard, eventually allowing Kenpachi to regain composure from the initial attacks and counter. Plus, Kenpachi likely has different battle experiences than those attacked here to prepare them for this situation of fighting without their seneses. They all have their skills in which they excel, and sometimes those will be more useful than others.

We have no way of knowing how Yamamoto, Kenpachi, or any other captain would have fared in Shinji's situation, and what do you mean by Hiyori's just a "VC level hybrid?" Hiyori as a VC shinigami should be weaker than a captain shinigami, but we have no way of qualifying more powerful she should become as a vizard in comparison to a captain except with the examples that Kubo gives us; this would be one of those examples.


Probably for more 2, 3 chapters; Hiyori already had became a vaizard, then Kubo must explain Aizen true's intentions, what'll happen to Kensei and Mashiro, how Shinji and co. will become vaizards and Urahara and Tessai's roles in the catalyst;


Oh, yes, I'm forgetting about Vaizard's true motivations: if SS banned them or if they'll flee for their own will;

Kubo needs to show what Urahara and Tessai will do, but the rest could probably be surmised from the events we've seen. One (two at most) chapters ought to be enough.


So the "flasbhack"/gaiden is over now or will there be more chapters or is it likely to be over but there has been no confirmation yet?
If there is known that this gaiden is over: Shouldn't it then be called 316 Predictions and Spoilers instead of -99 ?

It has not yet been confirmed that the gaiden will continue, but we think that it will given the events we have seen. If we get (seemingly real) spoilers that state that the plot has returned to the present, then the title will be changed.

The Last Uchiha
May 30, 2008, 05:20 PM
I think Shunsui was aware that Aizen was planning something, he just wasn't sure.

Most likely Aizen and co. all already had their Bankai by then, which means Aizen's illision is walking around making sure is seen by others. I'm sure Shunsui noticed something but he can't put his finger on it.

Probably this will be the alibi that wil help Aizen be scott free.

TheChosenOne
May 30, 2008, 05:59 PM
My expectations in kidou for commanding officers in the Kidou Corps and a Gotei 13 captain are different, just as I would not expect a Gotei 13 captain to necessarily be as skilled in hakuda as a member of the Covert Ops.

True, but considering Aizen stating that all shinigami's have the same limit, should mean that his boundary is the same as Hachi's. I think he likely hasn't reach his limit in Kidou or he wasn't trying against Komma. If it's the former then that means we can question his limitations on other shinigami skills. :)

Edome
May 30, 2008, 06:03 PM
Wow, great chapter.

Having tousen finish them off makes perfect sense. I'm sure Aizen knows how easy Shihei could see through his illusions, so blocking his senses would've been the best method to finish him off. This also helps tie off the whole Aizen tree. Very smart way to end the chapter and perhaps even the Gaiden.

This just keeps getting better and better.

sk.nite
May 30, 2008, 06:24 PM
True, but considering Aizen stating that all shinigami's have the same limit, should mean that his boundary is the same as Hachi's. I think he likely hasn't reach his limit in Kidou or he wasn't trying against Komma. If it's the former then that means we can question his limitations on other shinigami skills. :)

Did he actually say that? I've been wondering for a while if he meant that or that every limit is individual.

Pd: Shunsui said that he remebers the names of all the little girls. He's a pedofile! XD

TheChosenOne
May 30, 2008, 06:30 PM
Did he actually say that? I've been wondering for a while if he meant that or that every limit is individual.

He states (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-175/page009.html) that each combat area has a limit and that a shingami's body also has an absolute limit that cannot be overcome with potential. :)

vegettasaiyan
May 30, 2008, 06:37 PM
Amazing chapter this was. Aizen doing all of this things gave me impression that he was extremely powerful shinigami at the beginning though he was just vice-capt (or maybe he just hide his true capacity to facilitate his goal).

IMO in this arc Aizen may have framed up or created a scenario making former captains as traitors, thus, inevitable happen they were exiled from SS.

zet
May 30, 2008, 06:39 PM
so it all came down to be aizen, gin n tousen. that was a good plot move by kubo, now we look back on the gaiden with differet eyes, damn that was a master stroke. now the question is, will we go back to the present and the rest of the story is filled with flashbacks during the fights or is he gonna do 1 or 2 more chapters and tie up the story? I don't understand how people are dismissing kensei and co because they got surprised (tousen bankai) and stabed, it's the oldest trick in the book, and clearly kensei and co didnt know what hit them before it was too late,a good example of that is Love realising to late what was going on. now are they weak because of that? the answer is NO. plus we dont have that many examples of how strong the vozard really are, all we've seen from them were a few short parts of the training with ichigo and shinji firing a cero at grimm, thats it, until we get more then that we should all weight anything said on the subject with a grain of salt.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-175/page011.html

reading that panel on bottom right just shows me a hint to this gaiden (shinigami-hollow) then he goes on about the experiments he carried out on hollows. Theres was a theory around that aizen started on shinigami and then moved on to experiment on hollows because SS wouldnt know about it and he would be able to control them because he fears nothing. acording to the manga his experiments (at least the ones he mentions on that page) were all after the gaiden. My guess is that urahara gets blamed together with tessai, yoruichi helps them escape or he gets exiled and youruichi follows him because she belive's in him (maybe that would explain why she can go through the gate and not urahara) while not telling anyone from SS. as the story is right now urahara takes all the blame of the captains turned hollows, because he was a cientist so he had the expertise, he also disrespected an order to stay put and so putting the seretei security in jeapordy, and maybe because someone (aizen) leaks the existance of the hougyoku to the central 46 and further incriminating him. what do yo guys think?

CaptFamous
May 30, 2008, 06:47 PM
As much as the character designs of the hollow-form vizards are awesome, and it's cool to get some background on the characters we all know, this guiden has now gone on for so long that I will be quite annoyed if nothing unexpected happens. I had figured that the "mysterious stabber" was Tosen right after Kensei got stabbed. I had figured that Aizen was behind the hollowification of the vizards after it became apparent that they hadn't done it on purpose (my original theory, and the most useful thing I've gotten from the guiden so far). This thing had better not be going down to -1.

sk.nite
May 30, 2008, 06:51 PM
He states (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-175/page009.html) that each combat area has a limit and that a shingami's body also has an absolute limit that cannot be overcome with potential. :)

Thanks for that clarification, I had forgotten his exact words.

funex
May 30, 2008, 07:23 PM
umm nice chapter, simply magnificent.!
on topic, do you remember aizen saying how did he got acces to the central 46 chambers?
no he didnt he just got acces.
How about this happened from an inside ally or boss or subordinate over there.
This wud explain why 1. he got inside central ( Cause someone must have let him in) and
2. to send an order to erase the vizards inmidiatly without letting them even talk or something (like rukia)

I guess if that is what happenned then urahara saw this comming and instead of sending the vizards to central they just flee, and all toguether created a plot to counter aizen in his next attack ( current arc)
Being all mighthy urahara i can see this coming, more since shinji and urahara have sho some simpaty, like saying we are both a like (shinji)

Warrior Advance
May 30, 2008, 08:02 PM
@Tsukisama: You can't be more right about Isshin. We already know Isshin IS NOT RELATED TO THE VAIZARD IN ANY WAY because:
1) Shinji didn't know Isshin's reiatsu at all in Karakura Town. As a person's reiatsu is like a signature it means Shinji DOES NOT KNOW Isshin.
2) Isshin, on the other hands, DOES NOT KNOW anything about the Vaizards as well. He only know vague things and nothing more.

So we can safely assume Isshin's history is totally unreleated to the Vaizards' one. People whining about Isshin not appearing in the gaiden is getting quite annoying.

Hmm about this one, I think that I would not agree with you that Isshin does not know anything about Vaizard or the existence of Vaizard.

Based on the previous manga, when Isshin talked with Kisuke after fought with the Grand Viser, Isshin and Kisuke knew the existence of the Vaizards. Probably, they even know what Vaizards are. Therefore, they are knowledgeable in those things.

About SS, I think that there is probability that SS (Older Captains and Vice Captains) know about Vaizards. For the newer Captains and Vice Captains (such as Hitsugaya, Nanao, and etc), they will not know anything about Vaizards.

wrstljr
May 30, 2008, 08:06 PM
On an unrelated point, while i was looking for the above link i found this one, which clearly shows Tousen in his captains uniform when the kenpachi that we know defeated the old one, meaning that the kenpachi in the gaiden is the one before zaraki http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/146/02/


It's too bad he currently has a white robe right now as well so I'm not nessicarily on board with that theory...though I do like it.

zet
May 30, 2008, 08:14 PM
umm nice chapter, simply magnificent.!
on topic, do you remember aizen saying how did he got acces to the central 46 chambers?
no he didnt he just got acces.
How about this happened from an inside ally or boss or subordinate over there.
This wud explain why 1. he got inside central ( Cause someone must have let him in) and
2. to send an order to erase the vizards inmidiatly without letting them even talk or something (like rukia)


I completly forgot about that event of aizen screwing the central 46, but would't they notice something was up all that time??? I donno, still a possibility more over if he has a mole there...

bladehappy
May 30, 2008, 09:24 PM
I completly forgot about that event of aizen screwing the central 46, but would't they notice something was up all that time??? I donno, still a possibility more over if he has a mole there...

I'm pretty sure Aizen killed everyone in Central 46, then used his Shikai to make it seem like they were still alive and giving orders.

Tsukisama
May 30, 2008, 10:00 PM
umm nice chapter, simply magnificent.!
on topic, do you remember aizen saying how did he got acces to the central 46 chambers?
no he didnt he just got acces.
How about this happened from an inside ally or boss or subordinate over there.
This wud explain why 1. he got inside central ( Cause someone must have let him in) and
2. to send an order to erase the vizards inmidiatly without letting them even talk or something (like rukia)

The Central 46 were killed not long before Rukia was returned to SS (reference (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/15/)). He probably made an appointment to see them or something, since it is apparently possible for a captain to enter the meeting room of the Central 46, and then created an illusion to make it seem that they were still alive.

The Central 46 during the time of the gaiden is presumably healthy and functional. Any decisions made are from the real Central 46. I doubt that Aizen needs to have someone woriking on the inside of Central 46 for him, since his plan is pretty ingenious enough as is.

Raizen
May 30, 2008, 10:34 PM
He states (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-175/page009.html) that each combat area has a limit and that a shingami's body also has an absolute limit that cannot be overcome with potential. :)
What he means is that each shinigami HAS a limit, however, the strength of each individual at that limit is different since each shinigami is unique. A shinigami who has reached his max in kido may only be as proficient as another shinigami who has only reached 80%. Its sort of like pokemon, each pokemon though the same, each of them has different stats. A pokemon on level 100 may have an attack stat of 350 while another pokemon on level 95 may have a stat of 351 (same pokemon here, just different nature)

TheChosenOne
May 30, 2008, 10:50 PM
What he means is that each shinigami HAS a limit, however, the strength of each individual at that limit is different since each shinigami is unique.

Well considering he generalizes the limit with "the shinigami's limit" say otherwise. Plus considering he states that potential doesn't matter just adds to the general shinigami body than different bodies with it's own uniqueness. :)

Tsukisama
May 30, 2008, 11:26 PM
^ I regard the "shinigami limits" thing as kind of nebulous at the moment. While I agree with TCO that Aizen's statement does seem to imply that there is an upper cap on each area of shinigami combat itself, the databook makes it seem like shinigami have different maximum potentials. It could be that both ideas are correct: each shinigami has set limits, but there is only so high a shinigami's limits can be based upon the combat area. (For an analogy, suppose that there is a building with ladders of varying heights and a ceiling. Everyone can only climb to the top of their ladder, but even with the tallest ladder, they are limited by the ceiling.)

For further discussion of shinigami limits and such, please use Biblioteca. This is rather off-topic, and I can see this possibly becoming a runaway tangent.

THETRUTH.com
May 30, 2008, 11:41 PM
Interesting chapter. So it was E3 after all. Tousen already has bankai his not even a Vice-captain. Little Nanao adorable and looks like she is 6 years old thats crazy.

Is Hiroyi's transformation different than Kensei's? she only has the mask more like Ichigo transformation but maybe its a time factor. Or maybe she is more similar to that is why her battle against her hollow took a long time like Ichigo's.

Devil-buster
May 31, 2008, 12:31 AM
It was a great chapter....finally clarification on the mysterious three...I always thought from the start it as aizen and gin but tousen kinda surprised me...cause I thought since he was a wimp in the SS arc I thought he was a weak nuisance bac then....anyways I think I clearly hate that yamamoto now, considering the fact that he probably kicked these captains out and cause he probably didnt believe them when they said that aizen was behind it...who the heck made him the leader....

mdp
May 31, 2008, 02:53 AM
Well now we just need to find out what the prototype is, how aizen and co. got their hands on it, what happens when tessai & urahara get to the scene, and how aizen got away with what he did while placing the blame on urahara.

zet
May 31, 2008, 06:32 AM
urahara and tessai totaly get screwed by aizen, taking all the blaim and setting up the SS arc. about the death of the central 46, thinking back I remember that hitsugaya knew how it work and we know he's a farly new captain on bleach so my guess is that he kills the central 46 much later on. now is just a questions of tieing up the lose ends, but will we see that now or later? can wait for the next chapter.

Ðveiz
May 31, 2008, 08:06 AM
Great chapter, loved how Aizen took of his mask for the first time! But I also think Aizens goal is a little misunderstod as to how he will achive it.

I highly doubt theres this little to Hybrids than the eyes meet. We only know as for now that Hybrids have an equal Hollow/Shinigami self to thier current powers which they can leach into. But there has to be more to that then that, even Aizen hinted to this at a certain point i'll put below.

So what is a true Hybrid? I don't think the current Vizards are anywhere "near" a true creation of a Vizard nor is the Espada. Also why Bleach probably wount end now, we havent seen the real thing just yet.

The method Aizen used in the Gaiden only sets your Hollow free, it dossn't give you a higher potential as a beeing except Hollow powers as a side power.
The Hougyoku removes the entirewall, also lifting the beeing to be able not only be greater with external powers, but also to lift thier current powers. Exsample.

A Shinigami can only do a destruction spell of 70~ But then he/she gets Hougyokufied with the real awoken thing and they can do much higher kido spells f.eks. 90-99~ or more IN addition having Hollow powers and much more reatsu.

My point is, I think why Aizen failed is because he could not lift the "Limit" of a spiritual body, but only setting the Hollow free. This is what Urahara created, he is the only and only one who could breakthrow the limits of a spiritual body, but it had another effect, which is what we miss. It set the hollow free just as how Aizen did, and thus why Urahara sealed the Hougyoku, it did much more than he had aticipated it to do. It broke down much more limits than just the Shinigamis limits and he had bad expeirence with the Vizards situation alrady.

Forgetting about Urahara which is much more only speculations. Think about it, an insane Warrior which is Aizens goal. He dossn't only want an extra set of hollow powers, he also wants to lift the current limit of the alrady limited powers you have from your true form.

and thus this is how he will become God, he dossn't only want hollow powers, he want to go over his limit as well.

zet
May 31, 2008, 08:36 AM
well we have the true hydrid in Ichigo, we all know that by looking at his zapaktu and his bankai with a chain of fate on zangetsu. I see shinigami-hollow (vaizards) as a failed experiment mainly because aizen wants to be able to control them, after shinji and co defeat there hollows you can be damn shore they would go after aizen. theres still alot to this story to be told, hopefuly kubo wont throw us another curve ball and just gives us some facts before we go back to the KK fight.

Ðveiz
May 31, 2008, 09:00 AM
Didn't deny that yeah, but the Vizards probably didn't get created by Hougyoku since it probably hassn't been made yet. So why the experiment failed? It dossn't seem logic because he coulnd't control them, he could just do the same to Hollows as he did to the captains in this Gaidan and he woulnd't need the Hougyoku at all.

So what is it that makes the Hougyoku so special? It's certainly not the hollow powers if it's true Aizen didn't use the Hougyoku in his Gaiden, it has to be something els.

[Edit] Aizen sees the Hougyoku for the first time when he pulls it out of Rukia, so he diffinately dossnt use it in this Gaiden[/eidt]

Either more pure Hybrids or even higher skills and abilities. I highly doubt that the Hougyoku has been fully explained yet.

THe only thing most ppl think on is it removes the wall to the Hollow or Shinigami vice versa, really do you think Urahara did create it to make Vizards? I doubt it, then why seal it away? Most loikely because he knows SS dossn't tolerate Hollow powers and that is experience from the Vizards creation. He wanted the Hougyoku to do something totally different.

My bad if I sounded to direct in this post, but just my view, not trying to force anyone on this theroy. Just one thing im sure of, we havent seen the Hougyokus reason to be created, and certainly it can't be to make Vizards that'd be lame plot vice after this Gaiden :notrust

Tsukisama
May 31, 2008, 10:01 AM
It was a great chapter....finally clarification on the mysterious three...I always thought from the start it as aizen and gin but tousen kinda surprised me...cause I thought since he was a wimp in the SS arc I thought he was a weak nuisance bac then....anyways I think I clearly hate that yamamoto now, considering the fact that he probably kicked these captains out and cause he probably didnt believe them when they said that aizen was behind it...who the heck made him the leader....

Why do you hate Yamamoto? The people in charge of dismissing the vizards would be Central 46. It is not until after it is discovered that they have been slain post-SS arc that Yamamoto takes over their duties. He was probably made leader because he is the oldest, strongest shinigami with the longest and most impressive service record. Yamamoto is not to blame in this. He has to follow orders, and he does that well.

mdp
May 31, 2008, 10:42 AM
urahara and tessai totaly get screwed by aizen, taking all the blaim and setting up the SS arc. about the death of the central 46, thinking back I remember that hitsugaya knew how it work and we know he's a farly new captain on bleach so my guess is that he kills the central 46 much later on. now is just a questions of tieing up the lose ends, but will we see that now or later? can wait for the next chapter.

They actually might not get blamed for it, since urahara does stay in SS for a little longer doesn't he? I was thinking there might be a "retrieve/kill the hollow-captains order," if the vizards flee SS immediately. This would then be a great opportunity for urahara, yourichi, & tessai to leave SS in protest. Because as we know it now, the vizards are hated for "using forbidden techniques to obtain hollow powers." So the blame for this incident might have just went directly to the captains (i.e. the vizards), rather than urahara and co. :s

ChocoBar9
May 31, 2008, 10:44 AM
My only concern is what are the vaizards true purpose that Kisuke and Isshin were discussing about, after this chapter it would seem that what thy're reaaly after is revenge against Aizen for turning them into Hollows and revenge against the Soul Society for exiling them its like what Kisuke said at the prison cells about the inmates who didn't do anything wrong but sice the captains view them as a threat they must be keep away from the outside to not cause destruction, another thing is their interest in Ichigo.

Tendou88
May 31, 2008, 12:56 PM
i find that the gaiden is more interesting than the main battle, anyone else agree ? =)
Aizen&Co turned Shinji&Co to vaizards, makes me wonder if Aizen, Gin and Tousen, can use hollow mask too, but they would be extremely overpowered if they can. I think Urahara is a Vaizard too(got the feeling about it). Cant wait to see Isshin&Co gaiden.

Yabe
May 31, 2008, 01:00 PM
Based on the previous manga, when Isshin talked with Kisuke after fought with the Grand Viser, Isshin and Kisuke knew the existence of the Vaizards. Probably, they even know what Vaizards are. Therefore, they are knowledgeable in those things.

About SS, I think that there is probability that SS (Older Captains and Vice Captains) know about Vaizards. For the newer Captains and Vice Captains (such as Hitsugaya, Nanao, and etc), they will not know anything about Vaizards.

Hm, you're right. I just reread this chapter (http://bleach7.com/reader/?ch=188&pg=9). Now I wonder about Kisuke's cold talk of them since he concerned very much about Hiyori in this gaiden, and his sort-of positive relationship with Shinji, his reaction should be more of a friendly surprise than ominous suspicion. Can that mean that something harsh will happen to ruin the relationship (not only between them the vizards and the shinigami), but between them and Kisuke personally also?

I can't point out whether Kisuke had had suspecion on Aizen when they went to save Rukia. I think that will give some clue to whether he'll go to the place and will possibly get a trace of Aizen's plan in this gaiden or not.


i find that the gaiden is more interesting than the main battle, anyone else agree ? =)
Aizen&Co turned Shinji&Co to vaizards, makes me wonder if Aizen, Gin and Tousen, can use hollow mask too, but they would be extremely overpowered if they can. I think Urahara is a Vaizard too(got the feeling about it). Cant wait to see Isshin&Co gaiden.

Ah, yes, that's a good suspecion on Aizen and co...! Come to think about it, that could really be... though I'm hesitating to agree about Kisuke but we haven't yet seen him fight with all his might so who knows.

Devil-buster
May 31, 2008, 01:01 PM
Why do you hate Yamamoto? The people in charge of dismissing the vizards would be Central 46. It is not until after it is discovered that they have been slain post-SS arc that Yamamoto takes over their duties. He was probably made leader because he is the oldest, strongest shinigami with the longest and most impressive service record. Yamamoto is not to blame in this. He has to follow orders, and he does that well.

It is true that Central 46 gives the orders...but it is Yamamoto who has to make the decision...the captains follow him not central 46...also I dont hate him because he follows orders...but because he fails to see through deception....if someone like urahara and shunsui can doubt aizen then why cant yamamoto...and just keep in mind all three of the bad guys became captains after this....and captains are elected by captains not central 46...even during the SS arc Yamamoto was just a puppet....while hitsugaya, shunsui and ukitake all saw something wrong with the picture......again a leader has to be the one to pick out the wrong in a picture not his subordinates.....

wrstljr
May 31, 2008, 02:27 PM
I will say this chapter did piss me off in many ways even though I have been enjoying Bleach so much lately.

But this chapter did highlight some major problems that fans have with Bleach...mainly the lack of creativity surrounding kido, releases and characters.

It was just boring to see Aizen turn out to be the bad guy (again...with the same two apprentices), and see the same binding spells all over again when he could've just as easily put in a different spell that gave some diversity to kido.

Though we were finally rewarded with some backstory over this gaiden...it would've been nice to get some actual hard facts out of the matter.

Kubo is great at creating questions but terrible at answering them. I can guarantee right here that we will never see the vizards release. Maybe I'm just down on Bleach right now but come on...how the hell could Aizen not have been caught already if that many captains and powerful people know he was at the site of this.

If I see one more Getsuga Tenshou/energy blast attack I will fully convert to a One Piece fan. At this point its getting very DBZ-like.

godofthesunn
May 31, 2008, 02:57 PM
I will say this chapter did piss me off in many ways even though I have been enjoying Bleach so much lately.

But this chapter did highlight some major problems that fans have with Bleach...mainly the lack of creativity surrounding kido, releases and characters.

It was just boring to see Aizen turn out to be the bad guy (again...with the same two apprentices), and see the same binding spells all over again when he could've just as easily put in a different spell that gave some diversity to kido.

Though we were finally rewarded with some backstory over this gaiden...it would've been nice to get some actual hard facts out of the matter.

Kubo is great at creating questions but terrible at answering them. I can guarantee right here that we will never see the vizards release. Maybe I'm just down on Bleach right now but come on...how the hell could Aizen not have been caught already if that many captains and powerful people know he was at the site of this.

If I see one more Getsuga Tenshou/energy blast attack I will fully convert to a One Piece fan. At this point its getting very DBZ-like.

Yu Yu hakusho like buddy, there wont be any other super power-ups from this show..anyways as long as we know what causes the hallowfication of shinigami then we can go back to boring bleach type stuff where fights take 10-15 chapters with multiple fights simultaneously.. ultimately we all know this will end with a ichigo/aizen fight but i would prefer to see a shinji/aizen finale to make things fair, anyways lets just hope for some decent info at the gaiden end or else we will all be sad

Tsukisama
May 31, 2008, 04:49 PM
It is true that Central 46 gives the orders...but it is Yamamoto who has to make the decision...the captains follow him not central 46...also I dont hate him because he follows orders...but because he fails to see through deception....if someone like urahara and shunsui can doubt aizen then why cant yamamoto...and just keep in mind all three of the bad guys became captains after this....and captains are elected by captains not central 46...even during the SS arc Yamamoto was just a puppet....while hitsugaya, shunsui and ukitake all saw something wrong with the picture......again a leader has to be the one to pick out the wrong in a picture not his subordinates.....

I am not sure what you mean by "Central 46 gives the orders but...Yamamoto [makes] the decision." There are some areas in which as leader of Gotei 13 he would have authority, but in matters of sentencing criminals, it would be Central 46's domain. Deciding the punishment of the vizards would completely be in the hands of Central 46, and Yamamoto and the rest of Gotei 13 would have to be the ones to carry it out.

I cannot recall Urahara ever showing any suspicions about Aizen in this gaiden. (Urahara was concerned for Hiyori and felt responsible for sending her out there, but I don't recall any traces of suspicion cast towards Aizen.) Shunsui had doubts about Aizen because of the conversation he had with him about the royal guard. Had Shunsui not had this conversation with him, Kyoraku would have had no reason to doubt Aizen. So, basically the only people suspicious of Aizen during this gaiden were Shinji and Shunsui, and both of them had their suspicions because of their dealings with Aizen.

You can't fault Yamamoto for not having interactions with a lieutenant of another division. Yamamoto is a very busy and important person. He can't spend time with every member of a division. He interacts with the captains, his lieutenant, and his own division, leaving the captains to keep an eye on their divisions. So, if you want to blame someone for not keeping a proper eye on his subordinate, then you can blame Shinji. Shinji was obviously mistrustful of Aizen, and yet it does not seem that he really voiced these suspicions to anyone.

All three of the bad guys did become captains, and they did so because of their skills, not because Yamamoto had a personal chat with them to decide that they were qualified. Once they did become captains, Yamamoto interacted with them at captains' meetings like he should have. Over the many years that those three were captains, no one were watching them out of the corners of their eyes or anything. During SS arc, everyone looked genuinely shocked to find out Aizen, Gin, and Tousen's roles in the affairs.

During SS arc, Hitsugaya did suspect something was wrong with the decisions of Central 46, and to his credit, he did investigate them. It was shown that several of the other captains also thought it was a little strange, but the ones that fought on the side of SS during the SS arc made clear that they follow their orders regardless, which is what any well-trained soldier would and should do. Ukitake got more involved because of his concern for Rukia rather than for suspicions of a conspiracy, and Shunsui believed in his friend's cause. Again, neither of those two were suspecting Aizen, Gin, or Tousen (only Hitsugaya).

Yamamoto has done his job exactly as he should have. Aizen was just extremely clever and fooled practically everyone. Yamamoto may be at the top of Gotei 13, but he can't be held accountable for things beyond a reasonable scope of his duties. He isn't all-seeing and all-knowing, and you should not expect him to be. He performed his duties by the book and has done a fine job as commander-general.

mdp
May 31, 2008, 05:39 PM
i have a feeling that Tsukisama is in a top position at his work because of his views on accountability lol :notrust

But i do agree with you that yama did everything he was suppose to.

Tsukisama
May 31, 2008, 06:06 PM
i have a feeling that Tsukisama is in a top position at his work because of his views on accountability lol :notrust

But i do agree with you that yama did everything he was suppose to.

:gigglebunny No, I am not, but I just can understand where Yamamoto's coming from. It's not easy being in charge, and you can't be omniscient or omnipresent. You just do your job as you are meant to do it, and he does that.

I have really enjoyed this little arc, and I will be a bit sad when it finally ends. Kubo has really impressed me these past 9 chapters with his story and character development, and I hope that he manages to carry this into the present. I know that we are in for several battles soon (Ichigo vs. Ulquiorra, Aizen/top 3 espada/Gin/Tousen vs. the SS captains and lieutenants present in fake KK); so, it may be another long while before Kubo decides to do some character development, but it would be nice if he would manage to integrate it in with the action, as it seems like he is either focusing on battles or development (and you can usually tell clearly when he is doing one and not the other).

Gold Knight
May 31, 2008, 06:21 PM
While I agree with Tsuki basically, also keep in mind the Yamamoto of 100 years ago is the same Yamamoto who would go on to obey orders to execute Rukia without questions asked and the same old codger who had actually believed that his two closest apprentices had fully betrayed him and the entire Soul Society.

...but lately I've noticed that Old Yama may have started to be a little more flexible, a little like Byakuya. He even asked Orihime to appeal to Ichigo and the "humans" for help with Aizen. He's started to work with Urahara and Yoruichi again. Who knows? While Ichigo and company have been fighting the Espada, Yamamoto may have even talked to the Vizards again. He had always been under the impression that Aizen was one of them before, but now that he knows the truth, he may have started to realize that Aizen was responsible for everything... even the Vizards' fall from grace 100 years ago. That may be why Tite Kubo decided to write this Gaiden right now. We may be seeing the Vizards in action soon - fighting side-by-side with their former Shingiami fellows again.

And we'll probably find out the rest of what exactly happened 100 years ago in the present time.

zet
May 31, 2008, 06:37 PM
They actually might not get blamed for it, since urahara does stay in SS for a little longer doesn't he? I was thinking there might be a "retrieve/kill the hollow-captains order," if the vizards flee SS immediately. This would then be a great opportunity for urahara, yourichi, & tessai to leave SS in protest. Because as we know it now, the vizards are hated for "using forbidden techniques to obtain hollow powers." So the blame for this incident might have just went directly to the captains (i.e. the vizards), rather than urahara and co. :s

we still don't know exactly how much more time does urahara stays after the insident aswell as why does he get banned from SS. I hope we find out in the next chapters of the gaiden, the time line asn't been finalised yet, so we should have more explanations coming. the way i could see the vizards escaping would be to send forces to exterminate them, that being squad 0 (royal guard) since rukia said that anything in the menos league they are called even though captains would do just fine but theres only a few left at seretei at the moment. that would explain why they would flee, but doens really explain how urahara gets expelled of SS. :blink
[hr]

While I agree with Tsuki basically, also keep in mind the Yamamoto of 100 years ago is the same Yamamoto who would go on to obey orders to execute Rukia without questions asked and the same old codger who had actually believed that his two closest apprentices had fully betrayed him and the entire Soul Society.

...but lately I've noticed that Old Yama may have started to be a little more flexible, a little like Byakuya. He even asked Orihime to appeal to Ichigo and the "humans" for help with Aizen. He's started to work with Urahara and Yoruichi again. Who knows? While Ichigo and company have been fighting the Espada, Yamamoto may have even talked to the Vizards again. He had always been under the impression that Aizen was one of them before, but now that he knows the truth, he may have started to realize that Aizen was responsible for everything... even the Vizards' fall from grace 100 years ago. That may be why Tite Kubo decided to write this Gaiden right now. We may be seeing the Vizards in action soon - fighting side-by-side with their former Shingiami fellows again.

And we'll probably find out the rest of what exactly happened 100 years ago in the present time.

thats very much true, yama is just following orders like a good soldier, but he has shown flexibility, with the riyoka, maybe the hollow incident in the ichigo-byakuya fight, now he even asked urahara for help so thats a big u-turn or just him showing some good leadership decisions? I can see kubo droping the gaiden now and moving on with the present chapters and explain what was left by doing flashbacks during meaningful fights (shinji v aizen) etc

UzumakiRoman
May 31, 2008, 07:32 PM
awesome chapter!! Aizen and his crew have been at this for over 100 years!! i was see all the backstory on the Vaizards now!! but what the fuck did they do to them to make their hollows come out?

notBowen
May 31, 2008, 09:33 PM
Was totally with the Gaiden up to this point. Aizen betrayal lite has about zero dramatic impact on me at this point. Time to get back to the present.

C4animax
May 31, 2008, 10:05 PM
Hum i like the way it's getting and can't wait for next chapter (at least urahara and tensei arrivals :D) therefore i hate the way strengh is classified, it seems that few earlier chapters shinjin could destroy aizen shikai (is that it?) which is to create illusion (i guess?) then tousen comes and do his bankai, which to me is somehow similar to aizen technique but then shinjin can't do anything O_o (it seems hollow girl get him good so i don't know...)???

At the same time kempachi could overcome it quite easily, ok he's special but not the smartest captain out there.

Grrr and as amazing it might be i don't like the fact that hachi can summon a 99 th level spell, that means tensei is just as good as him (unless there's spells over 100 th) and as avice captain there should be difference between the two of them...anyway those are better than aizen in speells (it seems)...

Strengh scale have been screwed up for quite a while now...i just plain hate that.
[hr]
Oh btw, what if kudo's going from -100 to 0? Can't see the story go back to present at this point.

bank3r
May 31, 2008, 10:25 PM
What confuse me is...do you think Aizen is stronger than those captain at the time already?

If Aizen knows that vizard transformation will increace one's strength why did he do it for other and not only keep it to himself?

Unless, he was unsure of the results so he used those captain/vice cap. as a test.

I still think Shinji and other captain at the time is at the same level as Aizen if not stronger...and how with their mask..they should be even stronger (Consider Shinji gave grimmjow pretty good beating with only his mask, and not yet to release his shikai or bankai)
[hr]



Oh btw, what if kudo's going from -100 to 0? Can't see the story go back to present at this point.

If -100 to 0 then it will take 2 years to complete!!! I definetely not seeing that happening

Tsukisama
May 31, 2008, 10:26 PM
Hum i like the way it's getting and can't wait for next chapter (at least urahara and tensei arrivals :D) therefore i hate the way strengh is classified, it seems that few earlier chapters shinjin could destroy aizen shikai (is that it?) which is to create illusion (i guess?) then tousen comes and do his bankai, which to me is somehow similar to aizen technique but then shinjin can't do anything O_o (it seems hollow girl get him good so i don't know...)???

At the same time kempachi could overcome it quite easily, ok he's special but not the smartest captain out there.

Grrr and as amazing it might be i don't like the fact that hachi can summon a 99 th level spell, that means tensei is just as good as him (unless there's spells over 100 th) and as avice captain there should be difference between the two of them...anyway those are better than aizen in speells (it seems)...

Strengh scale have been screwed up for quite a while now...i just plain hate that.

Oh btw, what if kudo's going from -100 to 0? Can't see the story go back to present at this point.

We don't know what exactly it was that Shinji foiled of Aizen's, but given his display in this chapter, I am more doubtful that what Shinji overcame was Aizen's shikai.

As I stated in a previous post (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=886396#post886396) in this thread, the situations concerning Tousen's bankai encounter with Kenpachi and in this chapter are different. In this chapter, Tousen is basically just (non-lethally) stabbing his opponents once and then they transform. In his fight with Kenpachi, Tousen was not pulling off one-hit finishes; instead, his fight was protracted and his non-lethal striking method allowed Kenpachi enough time to realize how his bankai worked and develop a counter.

Although Hachi used a level 99 bakudou without an incantation, he was greatly exhausted by it, whereas Tessai was able to not only use the first part of the level 99 bakudou (kin) but also use the second part (bankin) without any sign of fatigue. Thus, it is still apparent that Tessai is more skilled than Hachi (or at least Hachi back then, as Hachi's skills may have improved).

The gaiden is winding down. It could end with this chapter or last a little longer, but it seems that it will be over in at most the next two chapters.

ShaunMati1
May 31, 2008, 11:49 PM
If it is over soon i cant wait for the present then, i dont know about u guys but im going to see the vaizards in a whole new way. As if they were on the "good side". Also cant wait for Ichigo vs Ulquiorra 2 thats gonna be sick

C4animax
June 01, 2008, 12:03 AM
I don't fully agree about the non lethal hit, i can't remember clearly the fight but the stabbing would have been enough for numerous people (even captain, probably) but then you know it's kenpachi who's known to be an "invincible demon" ... But i guess as long we don't answer the question of what happened between shinji and aizen we can't say anything about tousen...still shinji was damaged by hiiry hollow?

As for the spells, we saw tensei using them on ichigo like 100 years later, so unless he shows us something "greater" at the time he arrives (maybe two spells at the same time/level without being exhausted) that will sadly prouve what i said.

100 to 0...i didn't though it'd take 1/2 years :D but the story is too good to get back to present, hopefully we get at least 5/10 more chapters on it.

Tsukisama
June 01, 2008, 12:47 AM
^At the beginning of Kensei's fight with Kenpachi inside his bankai, Tousen uses nonlethal slashes on Kenpachi, essentially toying with him. Tousen could have done something lethal from the beginning, catching Kenpachi off-guard, but he didn't. It was not until Kenpachi began to gain the upperhand that Tousen began to seem to have lethal intent with his attacks.

Even if Tessai does not use any kidou when he arrives with Urahara (although it is fairly possible that he will attempt some sort of kidou), we have seen that he is more proficient at it than Hachi. Besides, as long as Tessai is at least somewhat better than Hachi (although I imagine Tessai being more than just a little more proficient in kidou than Hachi), it is enough to justify Tessai being captain.

Unlike the Gotei 13, there is only (presumably) one Kidou Corps captain and lieutenant for the entire division. Thus, even if Hachi is just a little less skilled than Tessai, he is still the second best in the Kidou Corps. It does not take away from Tessai's skills; it only adds to Hachi's skills and makes the entire division look better, since if the top two seats in the division are both extremely powerful and near in power, then it is more likely that the next highest seat is also very powerful and so on.

Yet, I still believe that Tessai is likely considerably more skilled than Hachi. Whether or not we will get something more "impressive" (since Tessai using a slightly more advanced version of a level 99 bakudou like it was nothing may not be impressive enough) to show how much more skilled at kidou he is than Hachi is debatable. Since Tessai is not really a major character, if he does not show it now while he is in the spotlight, I wonder if he will ever get the spotlight enough again for the opportunity.

rocklee87
June 01, 2008, 01:21 AM
While I agree with Tsuki basically, also keep in mind the Yamamoto of 100 years ago is the same Yamamoto who would go on to obey orders to execute Rukia without questions asked and the same old codger who had actually believed that his two closest apprentices had fully betrayed him and the entire Soul Society.

...but lately I've noticed that Old Yama may have started to be a little more flexible, a little like Byakuya. He even asked Orihime to appeal to Ichigo and the "humans" for help with Aizen. He's started to work with Urahara and Yoruichi again. Who knows? While Ichigo and company have been fighting the Espada, Yamamoto may have even talked to the Vizards again. He had always been under the impression that Aizen was one of them before, but now that he knows the truth, he may have started to realize that Aizen was responsible for everything... even the Vizards' fall from grace 100 years ago. That may be why Tite Kubo decided to write this Gaiden right now. We may be seeing the Vizards in action soon - fighting side-by-side with their former Shingiami fellows again.

And we'll probably find out the rest of what exactly happened 100 years ago in the present time.

Well as of right now isn't Yama the ranking officer in all of SS? Before he would just blindly following orders, now he can use his own judgment to make decisions


Hum i like the way it's getting and can't wait for next chapter (at least urahara and tensei arrivals :D) therefore i hate the way strengh is classified, it seems that few earlier chapters shinjin could destroy aizen shikai (is that it?) which is to create illusion (i guess?) then tousen comes and do his bankai, which to me is somehow similar to aizen technique but then shinjin can't do anything O_o (it seems hollow girl get him good so i don't know...)???


Yeah Shinji was already down when Tousen attacked and I think the only way to counter Tousen's move is to get out of the attacks range (or maybe not, Tousen gave them very little time to react) while Aizen's move was broken down

I'm guessing Urahara gets blamed for the incident cause Aizen has an alibi and possibly planted info about hollow transformations in his lab....or Urahara could have been researching it but abandoned the tests for ethical reasons


What confuse me is...do you think Aizen is stronger than those captain at the time already?

If Aizen knows that vizard transformation will increace one's strength why did he do it for other and not only keep it to himself?

Unless, he was unsure of the results so he used those captain/vice cap. as a test.

I still think Shinji and other captain at the time is at the same level as Aizen if not stronger...and how with their mask..they should be even stronger (Consider Shinji gave grimmjow pretty good beating with only his mask, and not yet to release his shikai or bankai)
<hr noshade size="1">


If -100 to 0 then it will take 2 years to complete!!! I definetely not seeing that happening

The physical strength of Aizen and crew right now doesn't really matter since their attacks are pretty cheap. If you can control peoples senses I think you pretty much win

It seems like Tousen may have just gotten his bankai cause the tech broke before Rose hit the floor

I bet Aizen is going to send the Vaizards to attack the rest of the gotei 13 but Kensei and his VC will have snapped out of it by then and fight against the other vaizards with their masks on

I hope this makes sense I'm really tired

wrstljr
June 01, 2008, 02:23 AM
^At the beginning of Kensei's fight with Kenpachi inside his bankai, Tousen uses nonlethal slashes on Kenpachi, essentially toying with him. Tousen could have done something lethal from the beginning, catching Kenpachi off-guard, but he didn't. It was not until Kenpachi began to gain the upperhand that Tousen began to seem to have lethal intent with his attacks.

Wasn't Tousen not able to score a lethal hit becuase of Kenpachi's god-like reactiontime?

I was always under the impression that Tousen couldn't kill Kenpachi in his Bankai because immeadiately after Kenpachi was cut he countered in a fashion that would've hurt Tousen, and thats why the first couple hits are to the outer areas. We all know what happened when Tousen went for a kill move. And then the next time Kenpachi even anticipated exactly where the attack would be.

I do not believe that Tousen ever had a chance of landing a lethal hit on Kenpachi...and I don't think he was ever toying with him.

Jehuty
June 01, 2008, 02:36 AM
Whoo, what a chapter. Tousen behind the attacks, not that difficult to stomach. It's certainly not as difficult to stomach as what happened over in Naruto, but that's for over there.

So I guess either the miniseries isn't ending yet or we have a different ending coming up. Odd. -100 seemed like such a nice endpoint. Who knows how the Vizards get out of this sticky situation?

someguy0830
June 01, 2008, 02:59 AM
You never know. Maybe Kubo will catch us off guard and jump back to the present. I could see it happening, if he wants to establish the hate while hiding another of Aizen's tricks for later.

Shiro-kun
June 01, 2008, 03:37 AM
You never know. Maybe Kubo will catch us off guard and jump back to the present. I could see it happening, if he wants to establish the hate while hiding another of Aizen's tricks for later.

He might do that
however it well leave us in the dark for a while, so the idea is already a downer for me

iamsmurf
June 01, 2008, 08:07 AM
those trios are one hell of a team.. it really bothers me y aizen was still experimenting with hollows at the incident with kaien.. either he want to try something stupid or he ran out of options...and whats with aizen's evil grin towards urahura on the first chapter of the gaiden? either aizen has "Clairvoyance ( able to know what will happen in the future)" or mind reader.. he knows everything.. its like his been reading bleach chapters..he knows those who are capable..

Darek Khort
June 01, 2008, 08:12 AM
Nice chapter!
The way I see it like some have mentioned before Shunsui seeing Aizen innocently carrying books will be his alibi. Two guards also saw Aizen so his innocence will definately be proven as nobody knows about his shikai's technique.

Also the way I see it Kenpachi owned Tousen because he mainly hacks and slashes blindly in a cloud of joy. He also knew who he was fighting so going blind/deaf/etc didn't surprise him as much since he knew who was doing it.
Love, Lisa, Hachi/etc were caught off-guard. They were jumping to restrain/attack Hiyori and mid-jump were attacked by Tousen. It was unexpected. And confusion at least for a moment would have been apparent. Most people would be surprised if they suddenly went blind. Eyesight is quite important.

Warrior Advance
June 01, 2008, 09:35 AM
Nice chapter!
The way I see it like some have mentioned before Shunsui seeing Aizen innocently carrying books will be his alibi. Two guards also saw Aizen so his innocence will definately be proven as nobody knows about his shikai's technique.

Also the way I see it Kenpachi owned Tousen because he mainly hacks and slashes blindly in a cloud of joy. He also knew who he was fighting so going blind/deaf/etc didn't surprise him as much since he knew who was doing it.
Love, Lisa, Hachi/etc were caught off-guard. They were jumping to restrain/attack Hiyori and mid-jump were attacked by Tousen. It was unexpected. And confusion at least for a moment would have been apparent. Most people would be surprised if they suddenly went blind. Eyesight is quite important.

I agree with you too that Tousen did the action when Shinji & Co. were offguard. Furthermore, they did not only cannot see, but also cannot hear, smell, and etc.

xPm
June 01, 2008, 12:01 PM
What annoy me is that they didnt even release their sword.

Going out without using bankai for the vizard that have it would be lame, seriously.
And if kensei is fighting his inner hollow he should also be in bankai soon, shouldnt he?

Doombot
June 01, 2008, 12:04 PM
I'm going to say this and I might make some people angry because I know there is alot of people that like Kenpachi. I mean I do as well and it's kinda hard to not like a crazy a-hole like him but did you ever consider that Tousen wasn't trying to beat him. If Tousen seemed weaker then he was it also put him into a position of never being expected.

Everyone when they first seen the Rescue Rukia arc that Gin was going to be main villain but Aizen was able to feint weakness and throw everyone off track. You think if Tousen would have beat down Kenpachi that everyone would question how he developed such power. More eyes would be upon him. He basically played the "Oh I'm going to stop you.. oops I failed but at least I tried" guy.

Seeing this gaiden; Showing how Tousen is working against all of these captains and vices leads me to believe 100% that he wasn't going all out against Kenpachi.

rocklee87
June 01, 2008, 01:29 PM
Well if Tousen was really trying to kill Kenpachi he could have cut his head off with the 1st attack

To me Tousen's character isn't fleshed out very well; I mean I got that he went with Aizen because he would become strong enough to control the hollow and stop the bloodshed with the least amount of bloodshed but he was ready to execute Grimjaw for disturbing the "peace" but Kenpachi, who would do the same shit if given the chance he toyed with...well maybe not toyed with but did not KO when he had the chance

Makes no sense to me

THETRUTH.com
June 01, 2008, 02:14 PM
Something is off about Tousen, he may have been holding back.

But we know Kenpachi never took his eyepatch of either. One thing that goes against the theory is Tousen would have had to know Kenpachi would overcome the technique. If I remember correctly Tousen was lecturing Kenpachi the whole time. Taking into account that he seems to have disliked Ken for decades he may not have wanted to kill him quickly.

Drew7898
June 01, 2008, 03:25 PM
I'm hoping to see a little Aizen vs Kisuke fight......then we will see them fighting then the gaiden will end without telling us who was victorious

Tsukisama
June 01, 2008, 03:32 PM
^Let's move this discussion of the Tousen and Zaraki battle to this thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25452). (The thread is a little dusty, but it is better than making a new one on it.)

As stated before, the circumstances concerning Tousen's bankai battle with Kenpachi and his bankai usage here are different. So, let's just focus more on Tousen's actions in the gaiden instead.
[hr]

I'm hoping to see a little Aizen vs Kisuke fight......then we will see them fighting then the gaiden will end without telling us who was victorious

I doubt that they have ever fought and especially doubt that we will see it happen in this gaiden.

xxyorosxx
June 01, 2008, 05:38 PM
I don't read all the posts, but, anyone understand that Aizen alredy has an alibi? If no, see more carrefully the chapter and remember his zampakutou abiliteis...

Another question is, how many more gaiden chapters? I don't think that will be too many more, probably 1 or 2. The history has not endend, in the present arc the vaizards doesn't made their entrances. There's a long road to explanations about the past in the present, we will not get all the answers in the gaiden chapters.

And other is the question about the vaizard transformation, I try to not think too much about this, but one thing to remember is that Ichigo is a human that entered shinigami world and after in the vaizard. The actual vaizards, they aren't humans, but only shinigamis. Probably, a thing to think...

P.S.: bad english....

Jehuty
June 01, 2008, 05:54 PM
Little Nanao is probably the most adorable child ever. She seemed to have such respect for Kyouraku back then... and then she probably realized what a lazy sort of fellow he is. She also seems to have been the bookish type even as a child.

Tsukisama
June 01, 2008, 06:02 PM
Little Nanao is probably the most adorable child ever. She seemed to have such respect for Kyouraku back then... and then she probably realized what a lazy sort of fellow he is. She also seems to have been the bookish type even as a child.

I agree. Of the chibi versions of present-day shinigami seen in the gaiden (Nanao, Shuuhei, Gin, Byakuya, Akon), Nanao by far has been my favorite. I don't know if I will ever be able to get over seeing young Nanao with Kyoraku and then return to the present-day where he actually seems to have feelings for her.

C4animax
June 01, 2008, 06:33 PM
I'm guessing Urahara gets blamed for the incident cause Aizen has an alibi and possibly planted info about hollow transformations in his lab....or Urahara could have been researching it but abandoned the tests for ethical reasons


That would be annoying that in one chapter you get 5 (??) vizards + urahara and tensai (can 't remember the name)... banned from soul sociaty and if what kisuke said to mayori (i don't remember his name) was just becoming true (that if he dies he'd be number one in the research division exept that here he's just being banned).

Only 10 years passed if i don't say rubbish, could he have time to do that in secret?

Shiro-kun
June 01, 2008, 07:12 PM
I agree. Of the chibi versions of present-day shinigami seen in the gaiden (Nanao, Shuuhei, Gin, Byakuya, Akon), Nanao by far has been my favorite. I don't know if I will ever be able to get over seeing young Nanao with Kyoraku and then return to the present-day where he actually seems to have feelings for her.

Gin- already somewhat odd.wierd and a murderer
Byakuaya- a young arrogant child with a mild Hitsugaya temper
Soi Fon - uh .....well her past was already explored to some limit ....
Nanao- inocent girl , (^already said..)
Shuhei- a kid that caught up in all the commotion

Jehuty
June 01, 2008, 10:27 PM
Gin- already somewhat odd.wierd and a murderer
Byakuaya- a young arrogant child with a mild Hitsugaya temper
Soi Fon - uh .....well her past was already explored to some limit ....
Nanao- inocent girl , (^already said..)
Shuhei- a kid that caught up in all the commotion

She is quite the adorable little girl, isn't she? And Shuhei's a little rascal.

So I dunno if and how many times this has been said, but I suppose this confirms or at least the three figures from earlier as being the Evil Trio?

Tsukisama
June 01, 2008, 10:43 PM
So I dunno if and how many times this has been said, but I suppose this confirms or at least the three figures from earlier as being the Evil Trio?

Yes, it has been stated before, but it's okay to say it again. :hbunny

It is apparent now that the three shadowy figures were Aizen, Gin, and Tousen all along.

Jehuty
June 01, 2008, 10:56 PM
Yes, it has been stated before, but it's okay to say it again. :hbunny

It is apparent now that the three shadowy figures were Aizen, Gin, and Tousen all along.

Zoinks! And here we thought it was the evil goblin haunting the amusement park all along! Well they would've gotten away with it if it weren't for-

No, wait. They totally got away with it. Murders and everything. Damn.

Darek Khort
June 02, 2008, 02:53 AM
I wonder if the current captains/vice-captains actually hated the vizards. I reckon most of them either:
1. Don't care
2. Don't know
3. Didn't like Yama's decision

Also, wonder what Nanao thinks of Lisa after she turned into a vizard. Will they have some heart-felt reunion later on? Perhaps Lisa saves Nanao from danger.

Vizard5
June 02, 2008, 07:42 AM
sooo.. is tousen a vizard, or is he just wearing a wierd mask?

patedecarne
June 02, 2008, 08:05 AM
I wonder if the current captains/vice-captains actually hated the vizards. I reckon most of them either:
1. Don't care
2. Don't know
3. Didn't like Yama's decision

Also, wonder what Nanao thinks of Lisa after she turned into a vizard. Will they have some heart-felt reunion later on? Perhaps Lisa saves Nanao from danger.


I'll sticky with nº 3;

My guess is Shunsui and co. didn't like the decision, but central 46 is the true ruler, so it canno be helped..

We know that Shunsui has a strong personality, and I think Yammamoto won't be able to hide nothing from him, let's not forget Yamma was the only who told that Shunsui is able to know the true character from anyone, so I believe he'll notice if Yamma was lying to him.

zzlow
June 02, 2008, 08:56 AM
sooo.. is tousen a vizard, or is he just wearing a wierd mask?
tousen was pissed off by zaraki power back in ss arc, he is just wrong version of zatoichi.

Sa-sori
June 02, 2008, 09:59 AM
Where does this Gaiden end, although I don't mind if it keeps going.

dreamzsai
June 02, 2008, 10:08 AM
It is supposed to be ending in around 2 more episodes i believe, -98....

Tsukisama
June 02, 2008, 11:57 AM
I wonder if the current captains/vice-captains actually hated the vizards. I reckon most of them either:
1. Don't care
2. Don't know
3. Didn't like Yama's decision

Also, wonder what Nanao thinks of Lisa after she turned into a vizard. Will they have some heart-felt reunion later on? Perhaps Lisa saves Nanao from danger.

It wasn't Yamamoto's decision, but Central 46's call instead. Knowing Central 46 and SS's policies of secret "retirements," I think that for most people it would be option #2. Nanao probably thinks that Lisa died, since I don't think the "retirement" excuse would be very appropriate here.

The people who probably know what has become of the vizards are just the current captains (and Aizen's group probably too). Urahara, Yoruichi, and Tessai are probably going to dissent. Kyoraku (and Ukitake too probably) will probably feel bad about it but will accept it. Yamamoto, Ginrei, the current Kenpachi, and Unohana, all of whom would seem the most detached from the affected groups, will just accept it as an unfortunate turn of events and will not likely be very affected by this.

Jehuty
June 02, 2008, 12:36 PM
sooo.. is tousen a vizard, or is he just wearing a wierd mask?

My vote is weird mask... doesn't seem to have the whole crumbliness that Masks have.

sk.nite
June 02, 2008, 12:43 PM
sooo.. is tousen a vizard, or is he just wearing a wierd mask?

Nope, it's a weird mask. Vizards have a different kind of reiatsu, so the other guys would've noticed if he was transformed all this time.

RaZe
June 02, 2008, 02:03 PM
as i see it, there are a number of possibilities made from this chapter:

1. the vizards are in some way, unfit as hybrids.
1a: since they're not "true" hybrids, aizen gives up on his method in preference for the hougyoku.
1b: aizen is scared of his inner hollow [what a twist! /m. night] so he writes off the vizard method in preference for one that doesn't involve him fighting soemone on an equal level with him, in short he's a naturally strong bully who's terrified of a fair fight.

2. aizen, thinking the process a failure as it renders the shinigami into mindless hollow killing machines, which is bad as aizens brain is probably the only thing he values over the integrity of his skin.

2a: aizen, in an unfathomable display of idiocy leaves the vizards as mindless hollows thinking the experiment failed. the vizards then later supress their hollow themselves.

2b: aizen, not being all powerful yet, is forced to retreat when backup in the form of urahara/tessa/maybe yoriuchi arrives. [or just leaves before they show up] uruhara, wanting to save his friends, invents the hougyoku to turn them back and is semi successful in restoring them into somehting like ichigo [a shinigami with a hollow trying to take over]. to help them hide, urahara combines that cloak of his with his new doll and gives them untracable gigais.

3: the vizards are "true" hybrids.
3a: in which case, its likely aizen, gin and tousen are all vizards aswell by now, the arrancar are just his personal army because he couldn't recruit many powerful shinigami to his side. in all likihood, aizens method wouldn't work hollow-->shinigami so he only needed the hougyoku to build his army, meaning this "hougyoku needs to be fully awakened" stuff is all just a big distraction, which would explain the scene of him smiling after orihime resolves to erase the hougyoku.
3b: the vizards only became "true" hybrids with the help of the hougyoku, so aizen was not a vizard when he stole the hougyoku, but might be one by now.

lots of possibilities, heck, there are lots of possibile combinations of possibilities but i'll bet my chips on aizen writing off the vizards as failures due to their hyper aggressive nature and urahara/tessa saving the day as tessa's the only one convievably capable of restraining them all and it gives urahara an excuse to invent both the hougyoku and the gigai he is later banished for. yoriuchi being miss. special ops, finds out why urahara invented the untracable gigai, sympathises and helps him escape. as for aizen, as much as i'd like the "scared of fighting his inner hollow angle", i'd say he probably already is a vizard via the perfection of his previous method, as such he would only be using the hougyoku to build up his arrancar army to assist him in his war against soul society and later against the royal guard/division zero. he doesn't really care if orihime rejects it and is using it as a distraction.

now, of course the obvious flaw there is that aizen had apparently already been searching for the vasto's back in Nell's time in the espada and had already somehow "awakened" the power of the arrancar[#5 told nell he only owed aizen for making him stronger so he could fight stronger enemies], which would mean he didn't really need to hougyoku to do it. or perhaps he could assist the growth of natural arrancar without the hougyuku but needed it to make custom arrancar like that wonderwhatshisname guy who appeared to be a full hollow/vasto under the bandages before he was transformed. :\ or the hougyuku just plain does a better job with less effort. >_>

too many possibilities, more data is required to narrow down the range.


anyway, my prediction is that urahara will invent the hougyuku & stealth doll to help the vizards in the next chapter.

zangetsu685
June 02, 2008, 02:59 PM
given the gaiden does continue...tessai and urahara will arrive at the scene only to find the vaizards...as well vaizards... aizen and co will sense tessai's reiatsu since urahara has the cloak thing and decide to retreat for the moment.

tessai will know some sort of techinue to suppress the hollow side, sorta like the one hachi used, but stronger or something. urahara will break their masks and they return to normal for the time being, given that they're like ichigo when he was hollowized and shinji broke his mask to return him to normal.

urahara will create the untraceable gigai to help the vaizards get out of SS and after that he gets the idea that aizen was thinking and creates the hougyoku...

mars0103
June 02, 2008, 03:10 PM
given the gaiden does continue...tessai and urahara will arrive at the scene only to find the vaizards...as well vaizards... aizen and co will sense tessai's reiatsu since urahara has the cloak thing and decide to retreat for the moment.

tessai will know some sort of techinue to suppress the hollow side, sorta like the one hachi used, but stronger or something. urahara will break their masks and they return to normal for the time being, given that they're like ichigo when he was hollowized and shinji broke his mask to return him to normal.

urahara will create the untraceable gigai to help the vaizards get out of SS and after that he gets the idea that aizen was thinking and creates the hougyoku...

That makes sense to protect his friends I believe that isshin is in the mix as well

Xerte
June 02, 2008, 04:57 PM
when urahara will arrive, aizen will be already far away imo, because if he find him there there ould be a match or a short fight, but kubo wants to end this saga soon so it's impossible to make up a good fight...plus 2 new bankais...

urahara will get there and fight them... maybe shinji won't be vaizard, so he can help urahara..anyway urahara won't turn them into shinigami right there, he will bring them back in his research lab with everyone with mask, then he will search a methodto turn them back to shinigami....
hougyaku will suck their hollow form and they will be back normal...

in the future, hougyaku is said to steal all power of a shinigami, so i think that for vaizard no bankai is expected, every vaizard turned with hougyaku won't have a bankai in this series..

we still need to know what is the thing that aizen is trying on shinigami...
maybe aizen will play innocent and will suggest to urahara to try his hougyakou on shinji & other with masks..
yoruichi will too be taken inside this story ,urahara will ask her a method to turn them back but at last he will follow aizen suggestion
imo aizen will tell to yamamoto that urahara is trying illegal things in his lab, yamamoto will see all vaizard & hougyaku and will expell urahara and others...
youruichi will just defend urahara because she know that urahara is innocent.

Tsukisama
June 02, 2008, 05:06 PM
^ I think that the vizards will still have bankai. There is no reason that they should not still have bankai, especially if they still have access to their shikai evidenced through Kensei. Also, I believe that the vizards will eventually return to their shinigami forms on their own. We know that their battles with their inner hollows were all won after a certain time; so, there would be no need for Urahara to transform them back. He may give them gigai, but returning to a normal state should be within the vizards' capabilities.

wrstljr
June 02, 2008, 07:35 PM
Not to mention if the Vizards don't have Bankai it will be the biggest cop out in the history of my manga experience haha..

That would be like Sasuke beating Itachi but Itachi still being stronger and only did everything cause he loved his brother so much...wait

patedecarne
June 02, 2008, 07:52 PM
OK, now that I'm paying so much attention to this chapter, was just my impression, or that panel where Shunsui was telling to Nanao that Lisa would return safety while Lisa was being hardly attacked was perfect, so dramatic and dark;

It gave me creeps, ws really scaring that panel...

I loved that panel, and if the gaiden will be animated, that scene will be perfect!

Tsukisama
June 02, 2008, 07:59 PM
OK, now that I'm paying so much attention to this chapter, was just my impression, or that panel where Shunsui was telling to Nanao that Lisa would return safety while Lisa was being hardly attacked was perfect, so dramatic and dark;

It gave me creeps, ws really scaring that panel...

I loved that panel, and if the gaiden will be animated, that scene will be perfect!

I definitely agree. That scene had a great cinematic palpability. Honestly, though, this entire gaiden for the most part will make for some awesome episodes.

bladehappy
June 02, 2008, 08:30 PM
If fillers don't kill the series first.

Also, I think Urahara won't be doing anything other than facing Aizen. I think they'll engage in combat and it'll be one quick, but epic battle.

I also noticed something in this week's chapter. I know its been stated before that it seemed like Kyouraku suspected Aizen of something but his suspicions were ended when he saw Aizen, but I noticed that he saw Aizen, and seemed like he paused for a moment, and purposely blurted out that Aizen seems like he can't sleep tonight.

godofthesunn
June 02, 2008, 08:36 PM
You know at some point we have to say.. well there is a gaiden but kubo's numbering system is just off.. 101 years on the past.. great but the last three have been within a few days of each other..

Urahara vs Aizen.. I dunno if that would be a decent fight or not.. Aizen seems to be the top dog in bleach with ichigo quickly rising up the ranks to defeat him.. perhaps i'm wrong there but its follows that whole shonen trend imo.. I dont even think the old guy could handle Aizen really.. it will take a vizard and if wer're lukcy(Well I HOPE) to see shinji vs Aizen that would be a nice fight giving him what is due

iyung
June 02, 2008, 09:14 PM
I just wanna know why all these captains were ambushed and dismantled so quickly by Aizen and tousen as if they were never in combat. i dont know if every body was holding back becuase there friend was involved but there were no releases of any sort just kido spells which were just used to subdue the vizards in the confusion. i dont get a group of captains being ambushed by 2 lietanants and new comer . like i really didnt want Aizen to be the one behind it all cause now his power level got raised like another tier. if he had already mastered all there is to be shinigami and he could turn people into vizards now he on like tier 5 ability puts him almost god like status.

wrstljr
June 02, 2008, 09:19 PM
If fillers don't kill the series first.


The last fillers turned out to be pretty respectable and entertaining....Kariya Jin was even a pretty good villian if you ask me.

Tsukisama
June 02, 2008, 09:23 PM
Let's remember that this is not anime discussion thread. It's okay to mention how you think that this chapter would be animated, but this is the chapter discussion thread. If you wish to further discuss the anime, please use the Bleach Theater & Arcade forum (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=212).

C4animax
June 02, 2008, 10:17 PM
Could it be possible that central 46 was killed already? Aizen already rulling SS...hmmm

someguy0830
June 02, 2008, 10:19 PM
You know at some point we have to say.. well there is a gaiden but kubo's numbering system is just off.. 101 years on the past.. great but the last three have been within a few days of each other..It was never year based except for the first. Kubo picked an arbitrary negative start point and started going up. There's no internal chronology to it, just progression.

Tsukisama
June 02, 2008, 10:27 PM
Could it be possible that central 46 was killed already? Aizen already rulling SS...hmmm

No. It has already been addressed.


The Central 46 were killed not long before Rukia was returned to SS (reference (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/15/)).

The Central 46 during the time of the gaiden is presumably healthy and functional. Any decisions made are from the real Central 46.

Aizen has already stated when he murdered the Central 46, and there is no reason for him to have been lying about it. The Central 46 are alive.

ShaunMati1
June 02, 2008, 10:48 PM
Actually even tho im so anxious about the battles in the present with aizen and SS and ichigo vs uqlui 2, i want urahara and tessai to get to the scene of the vaizards here. I want to see what they will do and how urahara will be banished. I also wanna see urahara actually fight for once. Although he fought against the arrancar but all he did was counter them not necessarily swing his sword so ya. But kubo really knows what hes doing, hes making it more and more enjoyable by the week i love it.

jdk76
June 03, 2008, 01:22 AM
haven't seen hougyoku yet, not sure why they turning into hollows, I can see Aizen's plan to get rid of some captains conveniently so that he can get Himself, Gin, and Tousen into a slot.

The first time Aizen sees Hougyoku is when he removes it from Rukia, so I'm not sure what's going on except obviously setting up the Vizard group. Looks like we have a few more of these to go atleast, wonder if he does plan on going to zero. Hope things get clearer, it's a little too broad right now.

wrstljr
June 03, 2008, 03:32 AM
So I guess the real question is

Why did Aizen stay in SS over the last 100 years? To what end did it benefit him by remaining a captain and getting Tousen and Gin promoted as well? Couldn't he have just done exactly what he did 100 years later in the first place?

Darek Khort
June 03, 2008, 05:19 AM
@wrstljr - Most likely he stayed that long to search for the Hougyoku. Urahara hid it. He wanted to find it.
He then worked out that Rukia most likely had it in her. He researched some more. Found out the technique for taking out the Hougyoku from Rukia's body; then set his plan in motion. Execution/etc.


0----
I agree with those who believe Aizen will leave, Tessai will restrain everyone and Urahara will take them back to his lab. Also, Urahara has already been testing out his untraceable gigai as mentioned in a previous chapter. He'll probably complete or has already completed the gigai and will use it on the Vizards.

---

Also about the Hougyoku and about Aizen smiling after Orihime thought about rejecting the Hougyoku. I suddenly had this odd feeling that perhaps Aizen wants her to reject it. Reject the existence of the Hougyoku. (why else would Aizen show it to her? )
Perhaps the Hougyoku used to be something else. Rejecting the Hougyoku would turn it back into what it used to be. Perhaps its former self was more powerful than in its current state but was made into its current state because Urahara tried supressing its power. (just like rejecting Grimm's loss of an arm brings back its original state; an arm)

Sounds crazy but it seems plausible in my opinion.

Silhouette
June 03, 2008, 05:28 AM
So I guess the real question is

Why did Aizen stay in SS over the last 100 years? To what end did it benefit him by remaining a captain and getting Tousen and Gin promoted as well? Couldn't he have just done exactly what he did 100 years later in the first place?

Before leaving SS, Aizen said that he was leaving because there was nothing more for him to achieve there. So I guess he wasn't as knowledgeable or powerful back then as he is know or maybe he was still working on ruling HM. In other words, Aizen didn't stay in SS because he needed to but because HM wasn't ready for him to rule yet (e.g. contacting strong hollows, still working on arrancars...etc)
------------------------------

Do you guys remember when Nnoitra wondered how many years it's been since he broke Nel's mask?
Since Aizen got hold of the Hogyouku recently, Nnoitra's statement seemed inaccurate and it was thought that it's because the time in HM passes faster than in the real world. This maybe true but if Aizen knew how to turn shinigamis into hollows 100 years ago then maybe he was able to make arrancars as well!!

Anyway, I think the method that Aizen used to turn shinigamis into hollows was known to SS but it was forbidden. the reason I think so is because vizards were accused of using forbidden methods to gain hollow powers, right? this implies that SS had such knowledge but it was prohibited.


One last thing, if anyone can read Japanese then please translate the title of the book held by Nanao in pg 4.

rocklee87
June 03, 2008, 07:21 AM
Do you guys remember when Nnoitra wondered how many years it's been since he broke Nel's mask?
Since Aizen got hold of the Hogyouku recently, Nnoitra's statement seemed inaccurate and it was thought that it's because the time in HM passes faster than in the real world. This maybe true but if Aizen knew how to turn shinigamis into hollows 100 years ago then maybe he was able to make arrancars as well!!

Anyway, I think the method that Aizen used to turn shinigamis into hollows was known to SS but it was forbidden. the reason I think so is because vizards were accused of using forbidden methods to gain hollow powers, right? this implies that SS had such knowledge but it was prohibited.


One last thing, if anyone can read Japanese then please translate the title of the book held by Nanao in pg 4.

I thought about that for a while and I think Aizen was turning hollows into vastolards before he left SS, thats how he gained control of the menos aswell (promise of becoming stronger) he just wanted the houk- the thing Urahara hid in Rukia, to speed the process up

patedecarne
June 03, 2008, 07:45 AM
Well, SS is more smart than meets the eye, probably it knows a lot more than we think.

thinking about it, to know the method about the transformation implies that in some point, SS witnessed some tranformation, but I don't think that could had existed some vaizard before Shinji and co;

one possibility is that Aizen leaked the information purposely, but the reason is unknown to me;

Besides, we have Hiyori's factor, she became a hollow without any contact with Aizen's methods, at least we couldn't see it so far.

Probably by the gaiden time, Aizen already knew about to hollowfication process, but wait until the present because of Hougyoku;

by the way, how did he knew about it? the last change to see something about Hougyoku could be in a likely meeting with Urahara in the upcoming chapter..

Tsukisama
June 03, 2008, 07:53 AM
I don't think that SS had prior knowledge about hollowfication of shinigami. Everyone seemed genuinely alarmed and surprised by the turn of events. Unohana only had a theory about what was happening (and she was partially correct). I am sure if Yamamoto had known what was happening that he would not have just sent the ninth division and then several captains and lieutenants go into the situation so unprepared, as he probably did not want to lose so many important shinigami.

Aizen will either learn about the Hougyoku through a discussion with Urahara (Urahara might confide in him since he interacted with Shinji and Aizen so much and might feel that Aizen would care), through spying on Urahara (his shikai is the perfect cover for this), or through going through Urahara's files once Urahara has left (Urahara flees in escape leaving some sort of record about the Hougyoku, which catches Aizen's interest).

Silhouette
June 03, 2008, 08:51 AM
I thought about that for a while and I think Aizen was turning hollows into vastolards before he left SS, thats how he gained control of the menos aswell (promise of becoming stronger) he just wanted the houk- the thing Urahara hid in Rukia, to speed the process up

Yes. I think that the Hogyouku does more than speed up the process though. I think it gives arrancars solid bodies/steel skin...like how Nnoitra said to Nel that his powers increased a lot since he broke her mask..by the Hogyouku maybe !!


Well, SS is more smart than meets the eye, probably it knows a lot more than we think.

thinking about it, to know the method about the transformation implies that in some point, SS witnessed some tranformation, but I don't think that could had existed some vaizard before Shinji and co;

one possibility is that Aizen leaked the information purposely, but the reason is unknown to me;

Besides, we have Hiyori's factor, she became a hollow without any contact with Aizen's methods, at least we couldn't see it so far.

Probably by the gaiden time, Aizen already knew about to hollowfication process, but wait until the present because of Hougyoku;

by the way, how did he knew about it? the last change to see something about Hougyoku could be in a likely meeting with Urahara in the upcoming chapter..

I don't think the Hogyouku was invented by then yet. There isn't even a hint of it so far and maybe our knowledge of its existence is leading our train of thoughts. I am thinking that Urahara invented to Hoqyouku to "cure" the vizards later...maybe.
i mean, why did Urahara make the Hogyouku in the first place? Urahara cared about the disappearing shinigamis and made that special gigai because he thought that their spirits were not able to stay intact so most likely he created the Hogyouku to help those who turned into hollows.


I don't think that SS had prior knowledge about hollowfication of shinigami. Everyone seemed genuinely alarmed and surprised by the turn of events. Unohana only had a theory about what was happening (and she was partially correct). I am sure if Yamamoto had known what was happening that he would not have just sent the ninth division and then several captains and lieutenants go into the situation so unprepared, as he probably did not want to lose so many important shinigami.


Yes they were genuinely concerned but they didn't know what was happening, were they? As far as Yama-jii knew, people were disappearing not turning into a hollow. And there could be different reasons behind the disappearance, Urahara for example, took what Unahan said and had a theory that spirits were just unstable therefore he made the special gigai. So far in the gaiden, SS doesn't know that some shinigamis turned hollow and it wouldn't connect that to known forbidden and most likely hidden methods .
If Aizen was able to find about something as secretive and forbidden as the King's key then why not the hollowfication method? SS does have its secrets after all.

Tsukisama
June 03, 2008, 11:12 AM
Yes they were genuinely concerned but they didn't know what was happening, were they? As far as Yama-jii knew, people were disappearing not turning into a hollow. And there could be different reasons behind the disappearance, Urahara for example, took what Unahan said and had a theory that spirits were just unstable therefore he made the special gigai. So far in the gaiden, SS doesn't know that some shinigamis turned hollow and it wouldn't connect that to known forbidden and most likely hidden methods .
If Aizen was able to find about something as secretive and forbidden as the King's key then why not the hollowfication method? SS does have its secrets after all.

If SS had conducted experiments in the past concerning hollowfication, then someone might have recognized these symptoms before. SS seemed to not know at all what was going on. Thus, I think that what Aizen was doing at the time was original research.

Creating the Ouken is something classified and forbidden but was known to be done by SS before for a good reason. There is no clearly conceivable good reason for experimenting with shinigami becoming hollows, which is probably why when SS finds out what has become the vizards it will likely be labeled as forbidden techniques. I wonder if anyone in SS before Aizen even toyed around idea of messing around with the shinigami's soul and becoming a hollow. (Someone conceiving the idea of maybe doing something to integrate a shinigami's soul with a hollow or something of that nature may have been conjectured in the past, but given SS's ignorance of what was going on, I doubt that the ideas were ever tested or put into practice.)

trigonoah
June 03, 2008, 11:24 AM
Yes I am thinking that Urahara invented to Hoqyouku to "cure" the vizards later...maybe.
i mean, why did Urahara make the Hogyouku in the first place? Urahara cared about the disappearing shinigamis and made that special gigai because he thought that their spirits were not able to stay intact so most likely he created the Hogyouku to help those who turned into hollows.

crap. you mentioned the theory before i had a chance too. here's my theory on why the Hogyouku was created, why Aizen may have stayed in soul society for the extra 100 years, etc:

Urahara finds out that the captains and lieutenants get turned into vaizards (not sure whether he'll know who's responsible). In a quest to remedy the vaizards, on top of the guilt he feels for sending Hiyori out that night instead of going himself, Urahara sets out to create a device that can turn a hollow into a Shinigami to reverse the process. After figuring out that the vaizards were able to suppress their hollows and return to shinigami form, Urahara sets out to destroy the Hogyouku since it isn't needed anymore and to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands (in this case, Aizen). Somewhere along the line stuff happens.... the vaizards, Urahara, Tessai, and Yoruichi all leave SS. Aizen, satisfied that he can turn a shinigami into a hollow, begins experimenting on hollows for the next 60+ years to see if he can do the same (in the meanwhile him, Tousen, and Gin continue to get stronger and climb in the ranks). After countless attempts, he is unsuccessful. Having some hint that Urahara created a device that can turn a hollow into a shinigami, Aizen looks more in depth into where Urahara hid it. It isn't until Rukia goes to Earth and meets Urahara for the first time (i.e. around the start of the series) that he realizes where it is and we get Bleach. Then blah blah blah, Aizen goes od gangsta, removes his glasses and becomes the role model for evil genius.

Tsukisama
June 03, 2008, 11:38 AM
Urahara finds out that the captains and lieutenants get turned into vaizards (not sure whether he'll know who's responsible). In a quest to remedy the vaizards, on top of the guilt he feels for sending Hiyori out that night instead of going himself, Urahara sets out to create a device that can turn a hollow into a Shinigami to reverse the process. After figuring out that the vaizards were able to suppress their hollows and return to shinigami form, Urahara sets out to destroy the Hogyouku since it isn't needed anymore and to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands (in this case, Aizen). Somewhere along the line stuff happens.... the vaizards, Urahara, Tessai, and Yoruichi all leave SS. Aizen, satisfied that he can turn a shinigami into a hollow, begins experimenting on hollows for the next 60+ years to see if he can do the same (in the meanwhile him, Tousen, and Gin continue to get stronger and climb in the ranks). After countless attempts, he is unsuccessful. Having some hint that Urahara created a device that can turn a hollow into a shinigami, Aizen looks more in depth into where Urahara hid it. It isn't until Rukia goes to Earth and meets Urahara for the first time (i.e. around the start of the series) that he realizes where it is and we get Bleach. Then blah blah blah, Aizen goes od gangsta, removes his glasses and becomes the role model for evil genius.

Interesting theory.

The only major thing to which I might object is your statement about Urahara creating the Hougyoku to change the vizards back to normal and then wanting to destroy it after he sees they have returned to their normal forms. I would imagine that creating the Hougyoku would take some considerable time even for Urahara (at least a couple of weeks), whereas the inner battles of the vizards last at most 69 minutes (Hiyori's record).

CopyNinjaKakashi
June 03, 2008, 12:53 PM
The way I see it is this:

Just like when Ichigo was becoming a hollow in the shaft, the vizards will somehow regain control over their hollow side, perhaps with help of Tessai and Urahara, perhaps not. They will then be banished for whatever reason (having hollow powers, etc.).

It is on earth that they will fight their inner hollow and learn how to increase the duration of the mask. I just don't see a way right now that they know exactly how long it will take. I don't believe any of them are really worried about time at this point. they just wanted to help their friends. It also wouldn't work because we have no idea how long Kensei and Mashiro have been in their hollow forms. This may account for the time needed to create the Hougyoku.

Just my .02 though.

Jammer
June 03, 2008, 02:12 PM
Aizen probably stayed in SS because he needed captain-class access for the library to learn the things he knows now. Urahara maybe finished the hougyoko in order to study the process of vizardification but not to cure it with it - barely to understand it... maybe it was simply a by-product of his experiments... That's why he never used it but probably he also learned that the process was incurable so he gave one of the undetectable gigais to the vizards and set them free >.> Aizen later reads about the orb but doesn't know where to find it, he reads also about the two methods to extract objects from a soul and about the ouken, probably about many other useful things too. After finding the orb and obtaining it he needs nothing else from SS so he leaves with his HM minions.

And during the tragic night - even if the newly born vizards tell Yama-jii that Aizen was on the scene he actually has a very good alibi - Kyoraku saw him, also the night guard saw him getting to his room with a bunch of books - now that was probably an illusion and that's why Kyoraku was suspicious - he felt something but wasn't sure enough >.> so he is more likely to confirm Aizen's version of the events

and btw here is Tousen (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.6/05/) there in the bottom - he's just wearing the mask and some goggles to hide his face.. that sneaky bastard xD

Silhouette
June 03, 2008, 04:20 PM
If SS had conducted experiments in the past concerning hollowfication, then someone might have recognized these symptoms before. SS seemed to not know at all what was going on. Thus, I think that what Aizen was doing at the time was original research.


Your argument isn't very solid.
How did you decide that spirits disappearing was a symptom of turning into a hollow only? One abnormality can have different reasons. Take Rukia for example, how come SS or Unahana didn't scream OMG she's got Hogyouku inside her this is why she lost her shinigami powers. According to your logic, since Unahana knew about the Hougyouku then it should've been a piece of cake to know it was the reason behind Rukia's decline in power. Instead it was believed that she lost her shinigami powers because she gave them up to Ichigo.

Tsukisama
June 03, 2008, 04:33 PM
Your argument isn't very solid.
How did you decide that spirits disappearing was a symptom of turning into a hollow only? One abnormality can have different reasons. Take Rukia for example, how come SS or Unahana didn't scream OMG she's got Hogyouku inside her this is why she lost her shinigami powers. According to your logic, since Unahana knew about the Hougyouku then it should've been a piece of cake to know it was the reason behind Rukia's decline in power. Instead it was believed that she lost her shinigami powers because she gave them up to Ichigo.

Rukia's powers did not return to her because of Urahara's spiritually draining gigai, not for having the Hougyoku inside of her. We were never shown if SS had any questions about the seemingly abnormal lack of Rukia's powers returning. Neither Unohana nor the rest of SS knew that the Hougyoku was inside of Rukia, and there was no way for them to have known, because having the Hougyoku implanted in Rukia's spiritual body gave no apparent signs.

We know that souls turning into hollows first break down and then reform as hollow. Urahara stated this when Ichigo was in the second stage of his training in the pit, and now we see in the gaiden where this information was learned. Unohana deduced that the spirits broke down, but she did not know about the part about reforming into hollows.

Silhouette
June 03, 2008, 04:49 PM
We know that souls turning into hollows first break down and then reform as hollow. Urahara stated this when Ichigo was in the second stage of his training in the pit, and now we see in the gaiden where this information was learned. Unohana deduced that the spirits broke down, but she did not know about the part about reforming into hollows.

And also according to Unahana, spirits can completely vanish when they are just unstable too. So how did you decide it was a symptom of turning into a hollow only?

Edit:
We've seen more than a dozen spirits vanish but only one hollow came out, so not every single spirit that breaks down becomes a hollow and SS must've also seen incidents when people completely disappeared which is what lead Unahana to her conclusion.

Tsukisama
June 03, 2008, 04:56 PM
And also according to Unahana, spirits can completely vanish when they are just unstable too. So how did you decide it was a symptom of turning into a hollow only?

I don't know that it is a symptom of turning into a hollow only, but if SS had known about hollowfication previously like you suggested, then they would have considered it a possiblity. Also, Unohana was giving an explanation (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/08/) for what apparently happened. The souls did seem to vanish leaving nothing but their clothes. It was not until later that it is realized that they did not just vanished but transformed into hollows.
[hr]

Edit:
We've seen more than a dozen spirits vanish but only one hollow came out, so not every single spirit that breaks down becomes a hollow and SS must've also seen incidents when people completely disappeared which is what lead Unahana to her conclusion.

No. It was completely unknown to them. Back to that same reference (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.5/08/), Unohana was only giving it as a possible explanation, and thus she had not seen or heard of these things happening before.

someguy0830
June 03, 2008, 05:28 PM
It doesn't apply to these souls, though. Only unburied human souls have the potential to become hollows normally, because they have the chain. Souls that have passed on are whole, so to speak, and therefore won't degrade as detached human souls do. They wouldn't consider them becoming hollows because there's no reason why they would.

Tsukisama
June 03, 2008, 05:38 PM
It doesn't apply to these souls, though. Only unburied human souls have the potential to become hollows normally, because they have the chain. Souls that have passed on are whole, so to speak, and therefore won't degrade as detached human souls do. They wouldn't consider them becoming hollows because there's no reason why they would.

I agree. There would be no prior reason for SS to suppose that the spirits of SS were becoming hollows, and as it appears that there are no records of prior research on the subject, it appears that SS had not ever tried such experiments. (Why would you want to do so, unless you are a depraved individual like Aizen? :blink)

someguy0830
June 03, 2008, 05:48 PM
Not quite what I meant. Even 100 years ago, they should at least know how a hollow is formed. After all, with all the souls all over the world in need of burying, it would be unreasonable to assume that they never saw one break down in thousands of years of work. The reason they make no mention of it here is because they simply don't consider it a possibility.

Tsukisama
June 03, 2008, 05:50 PM
Not quite what I meant. Even 100 years ago, they should at least know how a hollow is formed. After all, with all the souls all over the world in need of burying, it would be unreasonable to assume that they never saw one break down in thousands of years of work. The reason they make no mention of it here is because they simply don't consider it a possibility.

Right. I also think that they have seen this happening to regular souls, but they have never seen (or probably considered) it happening to souls in SS, which is why they don't seem prepared for these events.

Silhouette
June 03, 2008, 06:00 PM
I don't know that it is a symptom of turning into a hollow only, but if SS had known about hollowfication previously like you suggested, then they would have considered it a possiblity.

No. there could be other reasons why they didn't consider it.
For example, in case the process had to be performed by captain level shinigamis only. The fact that the incidents were limited to Rukongai citizens (who are certainly not captain-level) rules out the possibility of the citizens using it. And SS had no doubt about any of the captains then so didn't considering a captain to be using a forbidden method. On the other hand, SS knows the Runkongai citizens have weak spirits and so SS assumed the abnormality was due to the weak nature of those weak spirits. And so they sent Kensie. Only after Kensie disappeared SS became alarmed and only then a forbidden method can be considered.

It's true that there is no indication that SS had previous knowledge of an artificial hollowfication process and this might become a fact later but there is also no reason to think they didn't so far.

Tsukisama
June 03, 2008, 06:08 PM
It's true that there is no indication that SS had previous knowledge of an artificial hollowfication process and this might become a fact later but there is also no reason to think they didn't so far.

There is reason to think this, just as there is enough reason for you to make a case for your beliefs. It does not seem that there was any prior knowledge. Even if they knew what would have become of powerful spirits like shinigami captains (which does not seem to be the case), I would think that there would be some indication of this in the story. The only indication we are ever given is that they don't know what is going on.

I also hope that this is stated more explicitly in the future, but I am not confident that it will be, since the gaiden will be ending soon and I doubt that Kubo will address the confusion in the present.

jdk76
June 03, 2008, 06:22 PM
reread when ichigo regained his powers, said he wasn't in shinigami form but was in soul form, so can't find a link since they aren't human except maybe....destroying the http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/59/14/

which is similar to where peeps were stabbed, and perhaps the regular souls and shinigami were too weak. Urahara could've been working on it with Aizen spying cause it kinda seems like he knows what's going on but also is it possible that this is an unknown side effect of trying to nullify a captain level power, notice other peeps had throat slit etc., i do like that theory about maybe Hougyoku was created to try to help them but it doesn't seem like they need artificial help, i think Urahara and Mayuri just wanted to create shit.

starting to ramble from one thing to another so i'll end it there and just hope that we get answers

hajialibaig
June 03, 2008, 08:29 PM
I can't wait till this gaiden arc is over....it's becoming rather boring now

C4animax
June 03, 2008, 10:33 PM
Urahara finds out that the captains and lieutenants get turned into vaizards (not sure whether he'll know who's responsible). In a quest to remedy the vaizards, on top of the guilt he feels for sending Hiyori out that night instead of going himself, Urahara sets out to create a device that can turn a hollow into a Shinigami to reverse the process. After figuring out that the vaizards were able to suppress their hollows and return to shinigami form, Urahara sets out to destroy the Hogyouku since it isn't needed anymore and to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands (in this case, Aizen). Somewhere along the line stuff happens.... the vaizards, Urahara, Tessai, and Yoruichi all leave SS. Aizen, satisfied that he can turn a shinigami into a hollow, begins experimenting on hollows for the next 60+ years to see if he can do the same (in the meanwhile him, Tousen, and Gin continue to get stronger and climb in the ranks). After countless attempts, he is unsuccessful. Having some hint that Urahara created a device that can turn a hollow into a shinigami, Aizen looks more in depth into where Urahara hid it. It isn't until Rukia goes to Earth and meets Urahara for the first time (i.e. around the start of the series) that he realizes where it is and we get Bleach. Then blah blah blah, Aizen goes od gangsta, removes his glasses and becomes the role model for evil genius.

Ichigo didn't need anything exept his mind to get back human, and i think that shinji said explained that before ichigo starts the fight against his inner hollow, i like your theory bu what if theyr were taken in custody then break out by themselves?

Aizen seems to be interested by that king thing and the first way to access to him is probably central 46 which is why he stayed in ss. I agree he would search for the hogyouku but 60 years of research would be crazy wouldn't it?

Hockeychaoz
June 04, 2008, 12:44 AM
Okay this is bugging me, I have to let this out.

Aizen is using these Shinigami as experiments. We're all in agreement there right?

Okay, if Aizen were so confident that this would prove to unlock a huge potential and make someone insanely powerful, why would he try it on captains and vice captains? I mean, what if it worked? He'd just be killed by the selected captain.

Jehuty
June 04, 2008, 01:34 AM
Okay this is bugging me, I have to let this out.

Aizen is using these Shinigami as experiments. We're all in agreement there right?

Okay, if Aizen were so confident that this would prove to unlock a huge potential and make someone insanely powerful, why would he try it on captains and vice captains? I mean, what if it worked? He'd just be killed by the selected captain.

Well, if you assume all that, the vanguard of Shinigami just exploded, like the corpses. I think they need to have a certain level of power before they can maintain corporeal form.

Jadedmariner
June 04, 2008, 01:49 AM
Well, if you assume all that, the vanguard of Shinigami just exploded, like the corpses. I think they need to have a certain level of power before they can maintain corporeal form.

That's true and I don't see any inconsistency in him doing it to a captain. The problem I have is what kind of idiot reveals himself to those captains BEFORE the transformation and makes it clear they are the bad guy. All of his prior experiments failed so he has no real idea how powerful they may become so it seems like a very stupid risk to take. Why on earth make enemies of them before you know they aren't going to be able to easily slaughter you?

Jehuty
June 04, 2008, 01:57 AM
That's true and I don't see any inconsistency in him doing it to a captain. The problem I have is what kind of idiot reveals himself to those captains BEFORE the transformation and makes it clear they are the bad guy. All of his prior experiments failed so he has no real idea how powerful they may become so it seems like a very stupid risk to take. Why on earth make enemies of them before you know they aren't going to be able to easily slaughter you?

Kyouka Suigetsu seemed to work well on other Captains... unless the Hollow has infrared goggles on it, I doubt it'll see through them too.

notBowen
June 04, 2008, 02:29 AM
If I were to guess what is going to happen, all the Vizards we know and love will be Hollowfied, Urahara will come up with a method of rehabilitating them (Hougokyou or otherwise), and even after administering his "cure", Yammamoto will insist upon their execution. All the exiling and such will happen as a result of this, etc. etc.

ryanzokuken
June 04, 2008, 04:47 AM
i just want to get something off my chest that's been annoying me for a while now as i've been lurking and reading.

before, everyone was like "zomg, who could it be that stabbed kensei? oh man they must be really powerful to be able to do that to a captain!"

uhhh....
first of all, they were invisible. probably under a curtain of illusion from Aizen's shikai. which brings me to my second of all.
second of all, all three of them were probably there, to dispatch that many shinigami so quickly.
and third of all, the stabber (i assume it was Tousen because of Kensei's "...you!" exclamation. makes it seem more like it was Tousen, as he's one of his own men and it would be least expected.) stuck him from behind.

you don't have to be more powerful than somebody to sneak up, unseen, and stab them from behind.


and, another case, but still related...

Shinji taking a slash from Hiyori.

people have been like "woaaaah, looks like he's not as strong as everyone thought, what a pansy! he got hurt from being slashed by a VC!"

first of all, she's beginning to "hollowify". her mast is formed. her power will of course skyrocket. and Shinji is not even using shikai.

second, he's not expecting her to attack him. they're brawling with their comrades who have begun turning into hollows (not that they recognize that fully or understand what's going on), she's been fine, she starts coughing, he leans over her to see if she's ok, and *shing*! she whips around and horns him accross the chest. you're gonna knock the guy and call him weak for that?

and third, using that he was "injured from being cut by a VC level" and refrencing Kenpachi being fine after being cut by Noitora however many times...that just doesn't make sense. A) that's Kenpachi. he's a maniac, injuries and wounds that would kill others don't even bother him. and B) what's it matter who cuts you? if you get cut, you're gonna be hurting. power only comes into play before hand with whether or not you can keep from being cut by someone.

Jehuty
June 04, 2008, 04:57 AM
i just want to get something off my chest that's been annoying me for a while now as i've been lurking and reading.

before, everyone was like "zomg, who could it be that stabbed kensei? oh man they must be really powerful to be able to do that to a captain!"

uhhh....
first of all, they were invisible. probably under a curtain of illusion from Aizen's shikai. which brings me to my second of all.
second of all, all three of them were probably there, to dispatch that many shinigami so quickly.
and third of all, the stabber (i assume it was Tousen because of Kensei's "...you!" exclamation. makes it seem more like it was Tousen, as he's one of his own men and it would be least expected.) stuck him from behind.

you don't have to be more powerful than somebody to sneak up, unseen, and stab them from behind.


and, another case, but still related...

Shinji taking a slash from Hiyori.

people have been like "woaaaah, looks like he's not as strong as everyone thought, what a pansy! he got hurt from being slashed by a VC!"

first of all, she's beginning to "hollowify". her mast is formed. her power will of course skyrocket. and Shinji is not even using shikai.

second, he's not expecting her to attack him. they're brawling with their comrades who have begun turning into hollows (not that they recognize that fully or understand what's going on), she's been fine, she starts coughing, he leans over her to see if she's ok, and *shing*! she whips around and horns him accross the chest. you're gonna knock the guy and call him weak for that?

and third, using that he was "injured from being cut by a VC level" and refrencing Kenpachi being fine after being cut by Noitora however many times...that just doesn't make sense. A) that's Kenpachi. he's a maniac, injuries and wounds that would kill others don't even bother him. and B) what's it matter who cuts you? if you get cut, you're gonna be hurting. power only comes into play before hand with whether or not you can keep from being cut by someone.

That would apply to, say, Naruto or Kenshin, but in Bleach, it's kinda like DBZ... you have Reiatsu/Power Levels, so there's a point where you shouldn't be able to take damage from a lower threat. The Hollow that attacked Ichigo's family had like zero power, enough that Ichigo sans Zangetsu could cleave it in two easily. So he, in Hollow Form with Bankai, shouldn't be able to be killed in one shot from that same Hollow.

Tosen's very powerful, though, and Gin was a deadly motherf*cker even then. As you said, they also have Aizen's sword under the cover of night. It's not unexpected for me.

kunai-knight
June 04, 2008, 05:29 AM
Okay this is bugging me, I have to let this out.

Aizen is using these Shinigami as experiments. We're all in agreement there right?

Okay, if Aizen were so confident that this would prove to unlock a huge potential and make someone insanely powerful, why would he try it on captains and vice captains? I mean, what if it worked? He'd just be killed by the selected captain.

Well Aizen is one manipulative bastard. More than likely he already planned the whole kicking them out of SS thing long before he actually experimented on them. In anycase, I think it sort of backfired in that, I don't believe he had actually anticipated it spreading to the other captains through cuts and whats not, so he ended up with more than he could chew later on. We'll see if thats true in this week's chapter i suppose.

Jammer
June 04, 2008, 05:37 AM
well Tosen has bankai here - he should be very powerful already and not have any problems killing captain-class shinigamis,
Gin is also considered a genius IMO the one that stabbed Kensei was Gin with his shikai - his zanpaktu extends until it stabs/hits something, so he can kill from far away without being detected

gigantor21
June 04, 2008, 06:02 AM
We posted it and opened the threads a few minutes ago.

PLEASE just PM the find to me, or another Mod. Don't post them in random sections without telling us--it's against the rules.

Thanks.

kunai-knight
June 04, 2008, 06:43 AM
well Tosen has bankai here - he should be very powerful already and not have any problems killing captain-class shinigamis,
Gin is also considered a genius IMO the one that stabbed Kensei was Gin with his shikai - his zanpaktu extends until it stabs/hits something, so he can kill from far away without being detected

I don't think it was Gin. Kensei recognized who stabbed him. If it was Gin he a) prob wouldn't recognize him and b) probably couldnt even see him clearly, if at all.

oh and lol @ your signature lol:tem

zet
June 04, 2008, 09:11 AM
About the Kensei getting stabbed, I can see Tousen doing it, no problem there, then again it could be a combo of Tousen bankai (while touching either aizen or gin so they could see) and one of the other two, if they did it at a distance, like Jammer said that would keep them in a safe distance in case Kensei didnt go down or when the hollow took over he wouldn't attack them!? so many questions, so little answers....

TheChosenOne
June 04, 2008, 12:35 PM
Gin is also considered a genius IMO the one that stabbed Kensei was Gin with his shikai - his zanpaktu extends until it stabs/hits something, so he can kill from far away without being detected

Well we saw the silhouette (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-316.1/page019.html) was pretty close to Kensei, so I doubt it was Gin attacking from far away. :)

Jammer
June 04, 2008, 12:57 PM
Well we saw the silhouette (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-316.1/page019.html) was pretty close to Kensei, so I doubt it was Gin attacking from far away. :)


oh geez, we can actually see the darkness from Tousen's bankai shredding away from one of the frames in the bottom on that very page you linked... - at least that's what it looks like - so it was really Tousen then
i had totally forgotten that silhouette >.>


oh and lol @ your signature lol:tem10x kunai-knight, glad u find it funny :amuse
that's my theory for One Piece, u know.. (well, not really of course :p )

hdx514
June 04, 2008, 04:15 PM
i just want to get something off my chest that's been annoying me for a while now as i've been lurking and reading.

seems like you're just upset that the vaizards got WTF tooled by aizen's gang like everyone else. well, aizen's gang has always been owning people through a combination of manipulation, illusion and stealth, that's nothing new. those're a part of his integral strength. hence to challenge aizen, one either need the wits & skill to outsmart him/see through his illusions/counter his tricks, and/or the raw power and endurance to overwhelm the bastard. i see the vaizards demonstrate none of these qualities in past chapters. heck, hacchi had to do all the work as the captains seem to totally lack high level kidou, or any ability to restrain an opponent. aizen & co. on the other hand, were fully capable of the same shit back then.

you've provided many excuses, similar to excuses that could be easily applied to kaien, komamura & hitsugaya after their losses. while the conditions under which they were attacked may not be satisfactory proof of their incompetence for you (it is for me, but that's my opinion), excuses of any kind are certainty no indication of strength or competency. the vaizards were collateral damage in aizen's evil experiments, like kaien. and nothing indicates that they stand out as a threat, until the recruitment of ichigo, which is imo their smartest move in a century.

Drew7898
June 04, 2008, 06:55 PM
^Let's move this discussion of the Tousen and Zaraki battle to this thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25452). (The thread is a little dusty, but it is better than making a new one on it.)

As stated before, the circumstances concerning Tousen's bankai battle with Kenpachi and his bankai usage here are different. So, let's just focus more on Tousen's actions in the gaiden instead.
<hr noshade size="1">


I doubt that they have ever fought and especially doubt that we will see it happen in this gaiden.

Looks like we might see that kisuke vs aizen a lil bit

Zeus-Tails
June 04, 2008, 07:30 PM
Damn, Aizen has just been outsmarting every damn person. I wonder if he already mastered shikai and bankai even before coming into the Sereitei. He has definitely been hiding his true self ever since he came to the Sereitei since he's wearing glasses back then.

Jehuty
June 04, 2008, 07:49 PM
He has definitely been hiding his true self ever since he came to the Sereitei since he's wearing glasses back then.

Clearly, Aizen subscribes to the Superman theory of secret identities.

Zeus-Tails
June 04, 2008, 08:10 PM
Clearly, Aizen subscribes to the Superman theory of secret identities.

I'm pretty sure he took a Superman class.

Aizen's fake self: Wears glasses, acts like the nerd and has bushy hair
Clark Kent: Wears glasses, acts like the nerd and has somewhat bushy hair

Aizen's true self: Glasses off, hair slick back, and powers beyond belief
Superman: Glasses off, hair slick back, and powers beyond belief

Aizen is the person Superman becomes when Doomsday kills him! :P

LB56
June 04, 2008, 10:53 PM
This may be a bit off topic, but I can't shake the feeling that Kurosaki Isshin is about to make an appearance. He obviously has some connection to Urahara, and he left/was kicked out of Soul Society for some reason. My guess is he discovered what Aizen was doing, and was forced to use Urahara's gigai to hide in the living world.

siriusearl
June 04, 2008, 11:57 PM
I'm pretty sure he took a Superman class.

Aizen's fake self: Wears glasses, acts like the nerd and has bushy hair
Clark Kent: Wears glasses, acts like the nerd and has somewhat bushy hair

Aizen's true self: Glasses off, hair slick back, and powers beyond belief
Superman: Glasses off, hair slick back, and powers beyond belief

Aizen is the person Superman becomes when Doomsday kills him! :P

only thing left is for aizen to wear his underpants inside out x]

------------------------------------
aizen will probably fool everybody in SS that urahara and tessai were the culprit behind the vaizards..

kunai-knight
June 05, 2008, 04:49 AM
only thing left is for aizen to wear his underpants inside out x]


....You're a sick man. :amuse

siriusearl
June 05, 2008, 12:10 PM
aizen is way too evil, he didn't even mind experimenting on his own captain and the other captains as well. normal souls and lower class shinigami weren't enough for his experiment, so the only test subjects for him were those guyz... too bad for aizen, he made lots of enemies himself. x]

stepsa
June 05, 2008, 12:53 PM
im wondering if the guy who was replacing aizen is important in this story and who he is. Next chapter i think we will se aizen doing his speech again, this time to urahara and how he was helpfull in his plans, dunno maybe its just me but i think mayuri could be involved in this 2, being on aizen's side, yeah i know there is no clue about him but aizen always whips something out :D

zzlow
June 05, 2008, 01:07 PM
im wondering if the guy who was replacing aizen is important in this story and who he is
it's probably just his sword + BA translation issue...

lordHokage
June 05, 2008, 01:43 PM
aizen is way too evil, he didn't even mind experimenting on his own captain and the other captains as well. normal souls and lower class shinigami weren't enough for his experiment, so the only test subjects for him were those guyz... too bad for aizen, he made lots of enemies himself. x]


I agree that Aizen made a lot of enemies and I sincerely hope every one of them get a piece of him. :D

Doombot
June 05, 2008, 01:58 PM
Glad to see I was completely right about Aizen being stronger then everyone else already. I'm so glad that he totally owned Shinji because maybe people were thinking that at this time Shinji was much stronger then Aizen. When watching the SS arc, I thought it was clear that Aizen was saying that the Aizen the SS knew was not the true one. I think this goes without saying that Aizen indeed masted all his skill before even coming to the 13 courts.

This also goes to say how strong Gin and Tousen have to be. We all had thoughts that Gin had to be insanely strong and the #2 man but as we see Tousen in his gaiden it's starting to become foggy again. Does anyone think it's possible that Tousen is on par with Gin?

I still gotta see how Aizen is going to pull off not being kicked out. The only way is to totally frame Urahara with this mess. From a post from before... I don't think that Mayuri is working with Aizen. Mayuri seems to have a respect for Urahara that he has not shown to anyone else.

kunai-knight
June 05, 2008, 07:16 PM
I think in terms of reitsu, tousen has the second weakest in the 13 divisions, with hitsuguya or maybe soifon having the lowest. (Maybe biased as hitsuguya is my least favourite captain. Ironically enough, Matsumoto is pretty high on my fave vice captain list :D )

Its really only tousen's bankai that makes him seem so strong, but imo, its really just a cheap move. All the other Bankais i can think of atleast give you a fair chance to fight back.

But you can leave the dark area that Tousen creates in his bankai rite? So really once you leave the area fighting him shouldn't be as difficult.

sk.nite
June 05, 2008, 07:39 PM
Its really only tousen's bankai that makes him seem so strong, but imo, its really just a cheap move. All the other Bankais i can think of atleast give you a fair chance to fight back.

But you can leave the dark area that Tousen creates in his bankai rite? So really once you leave the area fighting him shouldn't be as difficult.

That would be a cheap way to defeat a cheap trick ;)

lordHokage
June 05, 2008, 09:02 PM
This also goes to say how strong Gin and Tousen have to be. We all had thoughts that Gin had to be insanely strong and the #2 man but as we see Tousen in his gaiden it's starting to become foggy again. Does anyone think it's possible that Tousen is on par with Gin?


Up until now, I question Tousen's loyalty towards Aizen-sama. Gin could careless while Tousen would do whatever it takes to please him, maybe they are not on par with each other. :blink

TheChosenOne
June 05, 2008, 09:53 PM
I think in terms of reitsu, tousen has the second weakest in the 13 divisions, with hitsuguya or maybe soifon having the lowest.

How did you reach this conclusion ? :confused

Boagrious
June 06, 2008, 12:10 AM
Up until now, I question Tousen's loyalty towards Aizen-sama. Gin could careless while Tousen would do whatever it takes to please him, maybe they are not on par with each other. :blink

I think they just have different roles, and Gin is way younger than Tousen.
He might just be too childish compared to Tousen.

Zeus-Tails
June 06, 2008, 05:16 AM
You guys grossly underestimate Tousen. We've seen him in one battle that he lost because he didn't take care of business like he was supposed to and gave his opponent a chance to win. Doesn't mean he's weak in power.