PDA

View Full Version : Discussion Lenalee and her new innocence: what are your future perspectives?



Fallen.
March 30, 2008, 05:37 AM
Well I was looking at the past chapters on the force innocence insertions on people to try to make them exorcist even when they weren't chosen by it .Like the past rejections and effects it had on them making some fallen.So i looked more into it and the leverrier family.I came upon an quote on wikipedia and being a lenalee fan lmao if you haven't guessed by now i just had to show you it.



Lenalee attempts to have Hevlaska return her innocence. It is implied during this event that Lenalee was not originally 'chosen' by her innocence, but forcefully joined


I guess hevlaska wasn't the saint chosen by the leverrier family.That explains why lenalee saw the little kid when he was taken to forcefully insert the innocence.Also why she is a candidate of possesing the heart.

Digital_Eon
March 30, 2008, 09:56 AM
Wikipedia is notoriously unreliable because it relies on what other people report. I don't think there's anything to support the idea that Lenalee was forced into using her Innocence, especially since her flashbacks imply that she synchronized - and fought - mostly of her own will (if motivated for other reasons).

Anyway, it seems very unlikely that Hevlaska would not be the "saint". Their appearances match, their ages match (Hevlaska has been around since the creation of the Order) and the Inspector's comment about Hevlaska being a "killer of her own blood" makes sense.

The "saint" is obviously not Lenalee, therefore, especially since Lenalee is not a member of the Rouvelier family.

luna_wolf
March 30, 2008, 10:22 AM
especially since Lenalee is not a member of the Rouvelier family.
well you never know with this mangaka¬¬...joke

yeh i agree with basicaly everything that digital_eon says, i think that havalaska might have been called a saint, becuase some person i dont know says "your not a saint, you killer of your own family" but as of yet i am without inough proof to set up a good argument.

i dont think lenalee is a "saint", but just an exorsist.

DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA
June 12, 2008, 12:21 PM
I know she had a tough time growing up and all but isnt she really annoying, interferring with everyone else's businesses, Nakama saving all the time when shes really weak.

No bashing, keep friendly or else the thread gets locked permanently

Digital_Eon
June 12, 2008, 12:36 PM
Yup, Lenalee's so weak that she kicked the level 4's butt, and a level 3's that she had many weaknesses to, and a bunch of other akuma, not to mention taking hits pretty well even when she could barely walk...

Seriously, how is she interfering with anyone's business? The only time that's happened is when she worries about Allen possibly getting himself killed - and as his friend, that's definitely her business. She's also strong enough to accept his decisions when most of us would probably be clinging to the friend for them not to go (literally).

DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA
June 12, 2008, 12:43 PM
She interferece all the time, its not just for allen, everyone else.

1337Shinigami
June 12, 2008, 12:44 PM
Sure, after her fight with the Level 3 (which only Generals and Allen have defeated so far) she became worthless in a fight. Everyone in Lenalee's life at the order (besides Malcom) she cherishs. She gets involed in others business because she cares its annoying to them maybe but Allen does the same thing in his own way.

Digital_Eon
June 12, 2008, 12:48 PM
She interferece all the time, its not just for allen, everyone else.

Examples, please? Lenalee has never interfered with anyone's life besides Allen's, and even then, only under very specific circumstances.

DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA
June 12, 2008, 12:49 PM
I know she beat the level 3 akuma, But then she started to become really annoying after loosing her innosence, She just wanted to automatically to win all the fights without anyone getting hurtso she woudnt feel upset. My best moments were When noahs were hurting allen and others infrot of her and she coudnt do nothing.

Digital_Eon
June 12, 2008, 01:06 PM
Uh... okay, what are you on, and what have you been reading instead of DGM? How could Lenalee have wanted to automatically win all the fights that SHE COULDN'T FIGHT IN? Or do you mean she wanted her friends to win before they got hurt - which happens to be a completely normal feeling that anyone with a heart would feel?

By the way, I can't ever recall Lenalee saying that. Again - evidence please? If you don't have any, I have no option but to say that you obviously haven't read or remembered the series very well, and your argument is worthless.

DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA
June 12, 2008, 01:09 PM
K I read the inside Ark bit again, and it really annoyed me. She insited to go back for krory, she got herself caught against jasdebi in return they used her against allen and the others.

1337Shinigami
June 12, 2008, 01:25 PM
Krorly was injured gravely before they left. Kanda wasn't injured and she didn't ask to go back once. Getting caught by Jasdebi isn't a big deal they were invisible at the time can't hold that against her. Jasdebi using Lenalee against Allen isn't something new it happens in every single shonen series just different characters.

Digital_Eon
June 12, 2008, 01:32 PM
It's not like Lenalee was being weak and got captured; she tripped and fell. Oh wow, how lame of Lenalee to trip and fall when she was trying to help (which, by the way, is a good thing - it was her or Chaoji, after all). And oh, how terrible for Allen to have Lenalee used to bait him. After all, without her, he might have - stayed trapped inside that monster thing!

Oh, and it was Allen and Krory's anger that knocked out Jasdevi. Yup, Lenalee was soooo worthless there. [/sarcasm]

It's worth noting that Lenalee wasn't intending to kick and scratch, but to try and activate her Innocence. She couldn't. That wasn't her fault, either. And how is that any different from Allen, who ran into the level 3's room in the Asia branch? He ended up saving Fou (although possibly putting Bak in danger). They both wanted to help their friends even if it meant risking their lives and taking a chance that their Innocence would somehow work again.

And you still haven't shown me an example of Lenalee interfering with people's lives OR wishing she could win all the battles to prevent her own bad feelings (although that's wrong; Lenalee would want to win to protect everyone, which is a GOOD thing).

Unless you meant Lenalee's desire to become stronger? Again, that's a good thing. -_-;; And it doesn't have anything to do with winning fights... she was also referring to personal strength, like being able to accept Allen's suicidal tendencies.

Darklight0303
June 12, 2008, 03:46 PM
I am going to answer to the topic of this thread through a simpleNO

Shaddix
June 12, 2008, 06:19 PM
I find annoying Inoue from Bleach and Sakura from Naruto, those two ARE ANNOYING.
But Lenalee is OK, ...well she cries sometimes but I guess it's because she cares about people.

hashire
June 12, 2008, 09:12 PM
I hate it when people use "they cry all the time" as a reason to hate them. She's a teenager. She's in the middle of a war where she and everyone around her are in danger constantly. What's wrong with worrying about people? What's wrong with crying? When I was a teenager, I did it a lot because things were pretty screwed up back then. Even now, at twenty, I cry.

I don't see how crying makes someone a better or worse character. It's just an expression of feeling. It can come from sadness or frustration.

OMFG, SHE FEELS THINGS. Giving a character depth should be a GOOD thing. I fail to see how being able to cry openly and ability to express feelings well detracts from a person's character.

Also, being worried about people isn't something that only happens in fiction. Honestly, I just see Lenalee as an accepting, loving person, and I love strong female characters. She's able to hold her own in a fight, which is not something that should be looked down upon. She wants to do her best to protect her friends. How is that a bad thing? But, you know, I guess people would rather have someone who has no backbone and wants other people to fight for her rather than doing it herself.

Digital_Eon
June 12, 2008, 10:08 PM
But that's the problem - people see Lenalee as someone who only cries all the time and needs to be rescued because she's so weak (never mind that it only happened once - with Jasdevi - and Lenalee was pretty strong through that experience). I don't understand why, because that's not like Lenalee at all. Yes, she couldn't fight for, what, eight volumes? In DGM-time, that was something like a few days.

And I totally agree about the crying part; it doesn't detract from Lenalee's character at all that she cares about people and isn't afraid to show it. Those are qualities we admire in people in real life, aren't they? And hey, half the time she doesn't cry because someone's getting hurt and she's sad, but because she's angry at herself for not being strong enough. Recognizing your weaknesses and hating them (and having the desire to change them) is also a good thing. Yet people ignore that because they skim through DGM, get an impression of Lenalee, and then stick to it without bothering to even think about whether or not the character is really like that.

Man, if only people would think about what they read. And remember it accurately. (Got that evidence yet, threadstarter? =P)

Darcy
June 12, 2008, 11:52 PM
I find annoying Inoue from Bleach and Sakura from Naruto, those two ARE ANNOYING.
But Lenalee is OK, ...well she cries sometimes but I guess it's because she cares about people.

I agree! Compared to a lot of other manga I have read, Lenalee is actually a pretty awesome female character.

hashire
June 13, 2008, 12:23 AM
I agree! Compared to a lot of other manga I have read, Lenalee is actually a pretty awesome female character.

Now if only people would see this.

(Aside, but I'm in the minority of people who actually like Orihime. And Hinamori. And other characters that people hate. But this really isn't the thread for it.
Though I can't think of any female characters that I do hate. But it might be that old feminist thing going on.)

Digital_Eon
June 13, 2008, 12:35 AM
Now if only people would see this.

Somehow, they seem to have tossed Lenalee into the category of whiny-bitchy-annoying-heroines-that-do-shit. And if they've ever seen a real one...



(Aside, but I'm in the minority of people who actually like Orihime.

Not a fan of Orihime (not a hater, really), but I do like Sakura from Naruto. ._.;; I mean, she's not really THAT bad. To me. I can't help but get the feeling that a lot of people dislike her because she interferes in the Naruto yaoi pairi- I mean. Uh. I can't imagine why.

Anyway, DGM just has way deeper characters than those action manga. There's a reason Lenalee does what she does, and she doesn't do anything really annoying. (And any guy who thinks a woman crying is annoying will never get laid. Hope he knows it.)

:tem ..... My compliments on the last two sentences. What a smart thing to say!

hashire
June 13, 2008, 12:44 AM
Not a fan of Orihime (not a hater, really), but I do like Sakura from Naruto. ._.;; I mean, she's not really THAT bad. To me. I can't help but get the feeling that a lot of people dislike her because she interferes in the Naruto yaoi pairi- I mean. Uh. I can't imagine why.

Anyway, DGM just has way deeper characters than those action manga. There's a reason Lenalee does what she does, and she doesn't do anything really annoying. (And any guy who thinks a woman crying is annoying will never get laid. Hope he knows it.)

I used to like Sakura when I used to like Naruto. I liked pretty much all of the female characters, even if some people don't.

Frsrs. Because girls tend to cry. Sometimes.

Teeba
June 13, 2008, 04:20 AM
I am totally taking Darklight's approach to the conversation. :P No, I disagree, I don't find Lenalee annoying at all. :)

luna_wolf
June 13, 2008, 07:22 AM
although i have to agree with some thing said here about linali, in the end when the emoing stops and she actualy starts fighting she kicks ass! the inbetween bits can be a pain but i think sometimes in the end something cool happens, just take the pain as a sign of great things to come in the future!

Shaddix
June 14, 2008, 06:05 AM
I just said Inoue and Sakura because they were the first to come to my mind...I find these two annoying but that doesn't mean that they actually ARE! Some people find Sasuke annoying and I like so much that character, so my opinion just counts for me in this case.

earthforge
June 14, 2008, 04:30 PM
DRAGON: Sir, you implied a double negative.

Lenalee is not annoying. Out of all of the popular manga heroines I have seen thus far, she has had the least time spent as the powerless woman. In fact as soon as she could she awaken her own power on her own, with the help of Hevlaska, she began to participate in the fighting again. The only reason why she got stuck as powerless was that she knowingly pushed herself too far and sacrificed to protect her friends. These reasons seperate her from other heroines such as Rukia, Orihime, Sakura, Hinata, and so on.

DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA
June 14, 2008, 06:38 PM
shes just naturally annoying with her whole nakama thing, she just over worries all the time which really piss me off, who ever gets a bit hurt, she just starts getting loud and annoying....

Digital_Eon
June 14, 2008, 08:04 PM
shes just naturally annoying with her whole nakama thing,

Never mind that half the characters in the series, including Allen, do the same thing.



she just over worries all the time which really piss me off,

Never mind that half the characters in the series, including Allen, do the same thing.

Oh, and what a shock, you're in a battlefield where people are getting injured and killed, and you - *gasp* - worry about your friends? Yeah, that's sooooo annoying, to have someone worried about you when you might DIE at any time.



who ever gets a bit hurt, she just starts getting loud and annoying....

Okay, there's the Lavi vs. Allen scene... where she was trying to get his attention - and geez, considering one of her friends was kicking the shit out of the other, is that a BAD thing? And tell me, what other scenes are there where a) Lenalee does it and b) Lenalee ALONE does it?

Seriously, you've done a good job describing a number of DGM characters there, and I still see ZERO EVIDENCE.

luna_wolf
June 16, 2008, 06:56 AM
to tell you the truth it doesnt seem as anoying when allen does it...i cant think of a reason XD

yeh but all the characters have their moments..some more than others..but thats just character development for you >o<

Digital_Eon
June 16, 2008, 10:22 AM
to tell you the truth it doesnt seem as anoying when allen does it...i cant think of a reason XD

Probably because it's something associated with annoying, weak females in other series. Lenalee isn't annoying and weak, and it's within her personality to do what she does, but we've been conditioned to find it annoying in a heroine. Most heroes don't fuss about their friends so much or cry every few chapters, so people overlook it when Allen does it.

1337Shinigami
June 16, 2008, 01:15 PM
to tell you the truth it doesnt seem as anoying when allen does it...i cant think of a reason XD

Maybe because Allen wants to save everyone including enemies instead of just friends and family.

Digital_Eon
June 16, 2008, 02:03 PM
Maybe because Allen wants to save everyone including enemies instead of just friends and family.

Honestly, I'd think people would find that way more annoying because it just sounds so naive. Look at Chaoji's reaction, after all. It does work for Allen, being the super-cute and innocent hero, but if no one finds him annoying, why Lenalee? After all, Lenalee can save her friends and family, or at least has a better chance of doing so.

luna_wolf
June 17, 2008, 07:59 AM
to tell you the truth, i cant realy blame linali for how she acts, if enyone here has read some of the fan book translations about her past you would be slightly more forgiving!

well curently ive forgiven linalii because of her kick ass inocence XD

rhapsody blue
June 18, 2008, 04:58 PM
Let's keep this friendly. ;)

If there is any character bashing or flaming going on, I will have to close this thread.

EL_manana
June 24, 2008, 05:43 PM
*sigh*
Honestly... There was a moment for me too. Back then in the middle of the Ark ark I also felt she was somewhat annoying with all that constant crying. And I actually got scared of this feeling, cause DAMN she is my favorite character in this series- I liked her from the very beginning along with the other three main characters- what has happened to me?! But then I've understood- it's quite simple- I've been reading all this bashing on different forums and chats (something like "she's annoying, stupid,weak..." ) and it became clear to me, that 80 percent of those people bash her not because they really don't like her as a character, but because they are just disappointed, cause in the beginning of the series she was pure awesome with all those fighting skills and kickass and suddenly she looses all her abilities and OMG she almost looks like all those shonen-heroines, who always stay behind, can not fight and annoy us, cause we are constantly hoping they make something WORTHY and helpful. They bash her because of their great expectations in the beginning, 'cause they just don't want to see her this way and it shows how much we are all tired of the stereotypical shonen-heroine image and how we long for an image of a strong and confident woman with the ability to kickass. So these people actually like her and that's why their disappointment is so extreme.
As for me, I now get the feeling I have another problem. Lenalee seems just too perfect. She is beautiful, even hot, smart, caring, has kickass-boots, fights along with male-fighters and doesn't seem the tiniest bit inferior to them, she is loved by everyone in the Order, she is always there for her friends, she had an unimaginably scary past so she can deeply understand people's pain and... God damn her main hobby is cooking while Allen told in the Komui’s Experiment Room Discussion Vol. 4 "I like girls who are good cooks. I love a woman in an apron. (Happy sigh) I might even fall in love if she’d make me sweet dumplings every day." Too perfect.
At least Orihime and Sakura can be imagined as real people with their mistakes and cares. Especially Sakura- a normal girl.completely. Though I don't like both of them.
*sigh*

Digital_Eon
June 24, 2008, 06:10 PM
*sigh*
So these people actually like her and that's why their disappointment is so extreme.

Then why do they hate her now? Lenalee had her moment of weakness (and while I wasn't a fan when Allen lost his arm, was anyone bashing him for being weak?), but now she's awesome again. Yet people still talk about how stupid and annoying Lenalee is.



As for me, I now get the feeling I have another problem. Lenalee seems just too perfect.

Is it okay for me to address this? :/ I think it's great that she's actually a good character. The main thing is that she's likeable. Most people hate manga heroines, and even if they're not weak, the reasons are obvious: they're too flawed. They're far more annoying than the male characters even in terms of personality. For once, Lenalee is actually the kind of person you would want to be friends with, and probably know some people not too much unlike her.



She is beautiful, even hot,

Same goes for pretty much all the main characters of DGM.


smart,

At the same time, she doesn't use her intelligence like one would expect a perfect person to. It's good that she's not a moron - and she isn't as educated as others (see the fanbook), and for her not to show off what she does have is, well, cool. Lavi doesn't really do that either - he acts like a moron - yet he's definitely above average in that department.


caring,

A bit overly so, actually. Again, though, not like other main characters - okay, ALLEN - aren't.


has kickass-boots,

Like no one else has a kickass weapon in the series. Okay, Chaoji doesn't, but... :3


fights along with male-fighters and doesn't seem the tiniest bit inferior to them,

And why should she be inferior? That's not showing that Lenalee is perfect, but that gender doesn't matter when it comes to kicking ass. There are even female Exorcists more powerful than pretty much everyone else - Cloud9.


she is loved by everyone in the Order,

Okay, look at it from this perspective: How many women are there in the Order again? Who actually stay there? And who are young, attractive, and essentially celebrities (for being an Exorcist; everyone knows who they are)? These guys are too busy for girlfriends. I'm not surprised they've picked an idol, and that the idol is Lenalee.


she is always there for her friends,

Er... Not quite. She wants to be, but Lenalee does sometimes have a hard time understanding (Allen's self-sacrificing tendencies), and people aren't as open to her as she'd like them to be. At the same time, she doesn't always care if her friends are there for her, or pretends not to.


she had an unimaginably scary past so she can deeply understand people's pain

A little. And again, this isn't a characteristic of Lenalee alone. DGM is full of suffering people. I also have yet to see Lenalee really be able to understand anyone's pain because of her past alone (unless she can relate to Allen, who was also an orphan? Although Komui should be able to, too. And pretty much anyone else separated from their family. Again, it's Allen who can relate the most in this way - to those who have lost someone and want to bring them back as an akuma).


and... God damn her main hobby is cooking while Allen told in the Komui’s Experiment Room Discussion Vol. 4 "I like girls who are good cooks. I love a woman in an apron. (Happy sigh) I might even fall in love if she’d make me sweet dumplings every day." Too perfect.

I cannot say how happy I was to see a heroine who can cook. It's almost a manga stereotype to have strong females be unable to cook whatsoever - so terrible that they burn water. Not only does this fit Lenalee's situation (who's the most effeminate person in the Order? Jeryy! Who taught her to be a lady? Jeryy! And what does Jeryy do? Cook! =D), it's just refreshing to see someone who breaks that stereotype.

And one could easily say that Allen's too perfect for loving food when the heroine knows how to cook. It's not necessarily a sign of perfection, just that they're a good couple. How many other guys, especially in DGM, would be able to value that talent of hers?



At least Orihime and Sakura can be imagined as real people with their mistakes and cares. Especially Sakura- a normal girl.completely. Though I don't like both of them.
*sigh*

I find them to be the opposite - Sakura especially. In the chapters I've read, she's so loud and, well, bitchy that I can't relate to her at all. She's an exaggeration. Orihime is a bit more like Lenalee in that they're able to recognize their weaknesses and wish to change, but she still feels a bit too much like the weak, quiet heroine that somehow miraculously manages to gain inner strength when she needs it.

As I said earlier, I can actually imagine people like Lenalee existing, and befriending them. She's far from perfect - she's a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to her friends, she's overly attached to them and has had to learn to see things from their point of view, she's concerned that she isn't strong enough but doesn't necessarily know what to do to gain it back. And, like any human, she's afraid - and it shows. In DGM, I think it's much easier to recognize her struggle and identify with it... particularly just before she fought the level 4, during the scene with the nurse. It was extremely difficult for her to do what she did. She had to go against what everyone else who mattered to her wanted, what she wanted, in order to achieve her goal.

And best of all, she didn't do so because her friends were getting their butts kicked and she drew on some reserve of hidden strength to save them. Lenalee's powers, her Innocence, was never the problem - it was her own emotions, her reservations about using Innocence, her hate towards the Order, her wish that this is just a dream and she can live a quiet life with Komui. Those are the kinds of struggles we all have to go through, and that it takes personal strength to achieve. If Lenalee were a perfect character, all she'd have to do is activate her superpowered Innocence after feeling the desire to save her friends and she'd kick ass, not because of her but because of the weapon. That didn't happen.

Maybe Lenalee will end up being perfect by the end of the manga. Who knows. If she were, people wouldn't be hating her. But that wouldn't happen because she just is; it'd be because Lenalee herself overcame those obstacles to be a better person. Which is something that can happen to any of us. =)

ohnoes, I'm a Lenalee stan! XD

EL_manana
June 24, 2008, 10:18 PM
Oh, English is hard. I have to study it more, since it seems that I can't express my thoughts very accurate- it causes misunderstandings. And OMG if I knew you're going to analyze every word of my description I would have payed more attention to what I am typing. ^^'
First of all I want to make it clear- I totally LOVE Lenalee. I think she is awesome, beautiful and a very deep character- one of the greatest achievements of Hoshino in this manga. Actually right now I am sewing her new uniform for the next anime-festival cosplay. ^^

Then why do they hate her now? Lenalee had her moment of weakness (and while I wasn't a fan when Allen lost his arm, was anyone bashing him for being weak?), but now she's awesome again. Yet people still talk about how stupid and annoying Lenalee is.
Haha, I would like to see a person who actually doubted that Allen will somehow get his Innocence back. He is a main character after all. By the way he was fighting Fou all the time. And those fights were awesome. On the contrary who could be sure that Lenalee will get her powers back? And she was so so so so so much like the typical heroine we all hate. And after that even in 4th Akuma ark it was mostly about her inner thought and feelings and hate for the cruel Innocence. Only like one-two chapters to shine. (in an awesome duet with Allen.^^) But it's kinda not much for a whole 8 volumes of weakness. And I also won't be too surprised if such bashing attitude for her will continue, 'cause her reputation is already ruined.

Is it okay for me to address this? :/ I think it's great that she's actually a good character. The main thing is that she's likeable. Most people hate manga heroines, and even if they're not weak, the reasons are obvious: they're too flawed. They're far more annoying than the male characters even in terms of personality. For once, Lenalee is actually the kind of person you would want to be friends with, and probably know some people not too much unlike her.
Well, isn't that the sign of her perfectness too. All you've said just now.
...
And then you're analyzing my description of her. And I just don't get it. From one point of view you seem to think I am wrong by saying she is perfect, but from the other point of view you are defending her in a way that makes me think even more that she is perfect.
Being perfect isn't bad, It's ok, just a little bit strange and hardly imaginable for the reality. a little bit boring sometimes. You totally know she is going to act the right way. I couldn't remember a single time I could say: "No, right now she is really wrong." Of course she isn't a show off, she is simply good, strong, smart and of course she doesn't even think of it- it is just what she is. And saying that smth is not the sign of perfectness, because someone else is the same...sorry, it's not an argument for me.

I also have yet to see Lenalee really be able to understand anyone's pain because of her past alone (unless she can relate to Allen, who was also an orphan? Although Komui should be able to, too. And pretty much anyone else separated from their family. Again, it's Allen who can relate the most in this way - to those who have lost someone and want to bring them back as an akuma).
You are totally right. But I don't mean that she have experienced something so she knows what exactly this situation means to a person. I just mean that she knows what pain and loss and loneliness, how scary and hard it can be sometimes...just the feeling itself. The pain is always the pain. For anyone.
And of course she gets the attention 'cause there isn't much women there, but she is getting it also because once again she is beautiful, smart and caring. She is an angel. A blessing, a perfect Angel for the Order, who brings them all coffee. It's great of cause.
The thing that is very interesting for me is the part about friends. Why do you think she doesn't care whether her friends are there for her or not? never actually thought of it. Do you mean her hating self-sacrificing and still sacrificing herself for others?
And the part about cooking. I was soooooooo happy about that too!!!!! Allen and her make a perfect couple. They are my favorite after all. I just thought then: "Ahhh, how cute. They are even compatible in such cute ordinary daylife things." That's one of the times when I suddenly want a moment when Lavi is nice to her, or when her deep connection with Kanda is represented, just so that it can make my heart beat faster and I would once again feel like I don't know what will happen in the end and with whom she'll be with and I'll get worried and excited. But its just lies, 'cause I totally know that she will be with Allen. I hate pairings when people have nothing in common and then suddenly are all in love with each other. But when it's totally obvious that the pair is certain for the mangaka it makes you lose a bit of interest.
AND OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG of cause they have almost nothing in common!!!! I mean Lenalee, Orihime and Sakura!!! Sorry, i used the wrong words, its a misunderstanding. I just mean that unlike Lenalee we've seen them making some really wrong things. For example Sakura didn't care for Naruto and hated him when he needed her so much and when he protected her with his life on the line. She always cared for another boy, seeking for his attention. That feels wrong, but its imaginable. Its understandable for a girl of her age. And its annoying, but interesting. I personally think that Sakura has made too much mistakes in her life compared to other heroines and I even felt sorry for her, cause almost every thing she did seemed wrong and annoying. Caring for her looks too much, not training despite feeling herself inferior, acting bitchy etc etc etc.
And Orihime... you are totally right. If only Lenalee had a bad trait so that she could REALLY overcome it.

Digital_Eon
June 24, 2008, 10:41 PM
First of all I want to make it clear- I totally LOVE Lenalee. I think she is awesome, beautiful and a very deep character- one of the greatest achievements of Hoshino in this manga.

Yay! =D



On the contrary who could be sure that Lenalee will get her powers back? And she was so so so so so much like the typical heroine we all hate. And after that even in 4th Akuma ark it was mostly about her inner thought and feelings and hate for the cruel Innocence.

I didn't think there was any question that she would. Typical heroines tend to get saved by the hero a lot, and that happened... once. (And in a situation where other factors were emphasized.) From what I've seen, too, typical heroines either fail to power-up with everyone else (and so are weak only compared to recent enemies) or just become normal. Lenalee didn't just lose her powers; she could barely walk. If she was going to be limping around for the rest of the manga...



Well, isn't that the sign of her perfectness too. All you've said just now.


I wouldn't say so. She's a protagonist; she should be a nice character who you'd want to get along with. I know I'd feel the same way for Allen and Lavi (er, maybe not Lavi, not being female =P).



From one point of view you seem to think I am wrong by saying she is perfect, but from the other point of view you are defending her in a way that makes me think even more that she is perfect.

I'm an obsessed fan. It's bad of me, but that's why... and I'm sorry; I didn't know if you liked Lenalee or not, so... ^_^;;



Being perfect isn't bad, It's ok, just a little bit strange and hardly imaginable for the reality. a little bit boring sometimes. You totally know she is going to act the right way. I couldn't remember a single time I could say: "No, right now she is really wrong."

It'd be a matter of perspective. Was Lenalee right to slap Allen when he tried to save the level 2? Or was she right to try and go back to save Krory? She doesn't end up doing the wrong thing, true, but it isn't always because of her own actions. It'd be nice to see Lenalee act on her own more - make decisions that affect everyone - and I wonder if we won't in the future.

And the time that she did (level 4), she didn't just naturally do the right thing. There was an internal conflict, and she made a really difficult decision that she didn't immediately feel was great and perfect and that she was okay with.


And saying that smth is not the sign of perfectness, because someone else is the same...sorry, it's not an argument for me.

It just means that people shouldn't be hating Lenalee alone for traits that Allen (and others) display in equal or greater amounts.



And of course she gets the attention 'cause there isn't much women there, but she is getting it also because once again she is beautiful, smart and caring. She is an angel. A blessing, a perfect Angel for the Order, who brings them all coffee. It's great of cause.

I guess? :/ I dunno, I still see this as showing how isolated the Order members are. Of course she's beautiful, smart, and nice, but those are hardly unrealistic traits (or even signs of a perfect person). If they think she's a goddess because she brings them coffee during a time of hard work...



The thing that is very interesting for me is the part about friends. Why do you think she doesn't care whether her friends are there for her or not? never actually thought of it. Do you mean her hating self-sacrificing and still sacrificing herself for others?

In a sense. She doesn't think it explicitly, but neither does she show any signs of wanting it (except that she just wants her friends to be there generally - ie: alive). Yeah, I was referring to the fact (with hypocrisy, at least) that she tends to sacrifice herself, too. It's just being human. Lenalee doesn't want her friends to worry about her, yet she worries about them. Some would say that's a sign of perfection, but with Lenalee, it feels less like humbleness and more of, well, Allen. And his way of doing things isn't necessarily all that healthy.


I hate pairings when people have nothing in common and then suddenly are all in love with each other. But when it's totally obvious that the pair is certain for the mangaka it makes you lose a bit of interest.

Yeah to the first part, and all the rest of that. ^___^ It's so cute! Yet at the same time, I really hate it when I don't know that a pair is certain. It upsets me, especially when it's clear that one pairing would just be the best thing and yet it's possible that there might be a far less happy ending. At least with Lenalee and Allen, we know they'll be together because... well, they just have that natural connection. It's not like Hoshino is trying to shove the fact in our faces, after all. She's shown it by just having them really be perfect in such a way that... well... it's like real life, right? If you or one of your best friends met someone who was just totally their soulmate (or whatever the cheesy term is), and they got along really well, it wouldn't be boring at all - it would be excellent! =D So yeah...


I personally think that Sakura has made too much mistakes in her life compared to other heroines and I even felt sorry for her, cause almost every thing she did seemed wrong and annoying. Caring for her looks too much, not training despite feeling herself inferior, acting bitchy etc etc etc.

Yeah, I kinda felt bad, too... I mean, it's not too hard to see why people hate Sakura. :/ And with Naruto feeling like a male-dominated manga (to me, anyway), it's kind of sad to see the heroine be so annoying. Flaws are great, but when you have too many to the point where the character becomes dislikeable...


If only Lenalee had a bad trait so that she could REALLY overcome it.

She does, but only as much as other DGM characters do: she's insecure. That's why she's so overprotective of her 'world'. If just one big puzzle piece drops out, Lenalee collapses because she's so dependent on them. That is something she's been slowly changing about herself, as shown by her attempt to accept Allen's way of doing things in chapter 123. Additionally, she doesn't trust people all that much, either (gee, I wonder why...). She feels like she has to do things herself (ie: save Krory), and doesn't draw comfort from anyone really easily. Again, it's something she'll probably grow out of during the series.

Okay, they're not obvious flaws like having no coordination, or being bad at math. Still, I think these big ones are more important. Again, this seems to be the way Hoshino writes - for example, what are Allen's minor flaws (that are really flaws and not just character quirks)? Lavi's? (Besides being a pervert.) They're all pretty good characters on the surface...

...Oh, but the REAL 'perfect' character is Cross. Despite being a jackass who sleeps around and drinks, the guy is incredibly handsome, always has beautiful women falling at his feet, can get anything he wants - and if that wasn't enough, is just the most powerful and knowledgeable thing on Earth since God. But, well, he's nice to look at. ;D

hashire
June 25, 2008, 08:44 PM
fights along with male-fighters and doesn't seem the tiniest bit inferior to them

. . . how is this a BAD thing?

There are so few kickass female characters in shounen manga. They're underrepresented anyway, unless they are the main character; of course, that leads to bashing because people think that the character is too "perfect" for being able to perform to their full capacity. They also pick on the faults that the character has, which are there to make the character less of a Mary Sue and more of someone with actual human traits.

Honestly, when I thought about things that a man can do that a woman can't, there was only one thing that I came up with, and it took forever: women can't get another person pregnant by natural means, so to speak. Otherwise, what is there that they can't do? And what's wrong with a woman who is strong and can handle her own stuff and still be flawed?

EL_manana
June 26, 2008, 09:10 AM
. . . how is this a BAD thing?

There are so few kickass female characters in shounen manga. They're underrepresented anyway, unless they are the main character; of course, that leads to bashing because people think that the character is too "perfect" for being able to perform to their full capacity. They also pick on the faults that the character has, which are there to make the character less of a Mary Sue and more of someone with actual human traits.

Honestly, when I thought about things that a man can do that a woman can't, there was only one thing that I came up with, and it took forever: women can't get another person pregnant by natural means, so to speak. Otherwise, what is there that they can't do? And what's wrong with a woman who is strong and can handle her own stuff and still be flawed?

О__О OH PLEASE!!! GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!
I've never told that this is a BAD thing!!!!! In contrary the point was that it is a great thing, an AWESOME thing. The thing, the ability of such a little number of shonen heroines for sure!!!
Jeez, people where do you see all that stuff? ^__^
I've just told that it ALSO makes her perfect... i mean there's nothing BAD in it, it's just one of her abilities, that COMBINED with other her abilities and characteristics makes her perfect. It's good in common sense, it's just unrealistic a bit as a whole image and that's why a tiny bit boring. It's kinda easy to love a person like this, a character like this. Such a character becomes a bit predictable and i repeat myself boring. And I still love Lenalee nevertheless.
But that's just my personal feeling. Well, it's not just me who thinks this way, but... Really, when I expressed it in my first post I didn't expect such a fierce reaction. It was just a feeling I got recently not even very consciously. ^^
......
Digital_Eon, thanX a lot! Actually the way you've described her inner insecureness and her not being able to rely on people was really interesting. It's not that I've never thought about it before, but I was kinda not sure about it and couldn't form it correctly. You've helped me a lot. Yeah, she has the way to develop herself, she has her own problems. But still these problems a too deep, they don't seem to be any sort of flaws the ordinary person would have in fact anyway. You know, those tricks Lavi plays on people, black Allen, his overeating( even if it's caused by his Innocence), Myranda's hyper hysteria and panic, Kanda's...well, a lot to mention.
All these little 'points' make them very interesting, funny, kinda makes them closer to the image of a real person, who develops. And I can't find any "points' like these in Lenalee. It's hard to imagine her doing anything but smth nice, kind, good. So it's kinda boring. I just sometimes want her to be more realistic, more like a normal person. And it also comes from my love to her. I don't want her to be boring ^^
OHhhh, it's so hard to answer all your points and arguments, sorry. My english....

...Oh, but the REAL 'perfect' character is Cross. Despite being a jackass who sleeps around and drinks, the guy is incredibly handsome, always has beautiful women falling at his feet, can get anything he wants - and if that wasn't enough, is just the most powerful and knowledgeable thing on Earth since God. But, well, he's nice to look at. ;D
Adding to the things I've said earlier....Cross is exactly NOT perfect. You've said it right. He drinks, manipulates people, made a lot of debts, was incredibly cruel with his idiot apprentice (even if it was with the intention to make a strong person out of him) and etc. etc. He is definitely not perfect. In manga biggest half of the characters dislikes him, or even hates. But that's why we readers like him so much. Of course he is not gaining as much attention as main heroes, but 90 percent of people think he is cool. He is imperfect, he is interesting, 'cause we're feeling that we can expect ANYTHING from him.

Koen
June 26, 2008, 06:15 PM
Thread Reopened, let's keep it friendly and no more bashing please

Well I look forward to see a new lenalee. The level 4 akuma arc was a nice proof of how important she and her innocence will be. It was eventually thanks to her too the level 4 akuma was taken care off. New innocence means a new resolution (like what happened with allen and clown crown). So I'll cheer for lenalee

Teeba
June 29, 2008, 06:52 AM
The thing that intrigues me the most about Lenalee's new innocence is how it'll help her in battle with a Noah. All the boys have gotten their share of fighting the Noah family one on one, but Lenalee has yet to face one. It would be really neat, especially since her speed has increased. What if her new boots gives her the ability to move so fast she can project herself somewhere else? Not necessarily to fight, but that would be pretty cool as like a decoy, or to scout out something.

rakkynon
June 29, 2008, 10:44 AM
That would be great, yet i think that will be the fact probably. Fightning against a level 4 with Allen was pretty incredible and we know that level 4 was purely more powerful against a noah, so Lenalee might have a chance to whack one.

About her innocence, i think this new crystal-type wont have that much negative sides. Lets just say Lenalee's characteristic was strong, so she opened a new door to her power. BUT i'm sure that fat-ass Earl will have his eyes on her or her innocence...which might be pretty unlucky for her.

I dont wanna lose Lenalee T_T

mitokomon
July 02, 2008, 03:00 PM
@rakkyon-Who wants to lose Lenalee...? ^^ About Earl I think his priority'll be the heart so I guess Lenalee's innocence will wait a bit...
And when it becomes the main topic, then I think we'll see Lenalee kicking (at least) a Noah's ass..., so Teeba I can clearly say I want her to have a more active role than just being a decoy, I think that's pretty cool and important too, but u know, seeing her in action is just cooler and better, right? ^^

Teeba
July 02, 2008, 06:35 PM
Right, of course! :P I was just talking about if her hyper speed powers got developed into astro-projection...so there'd be like two Lenalees at once, you know? Then a projection of herself could be a decoy to fool the enemy. LOL the idea was totally taken from Charmed, so it wasn't that original anyway. I too am dying for her to kick some serious butt in the upcoming chapters, definitely. :)

Edit: I mean astral projection, not astro-projection. :sweatdrop

kat_at_heart
July 03, 2008, 03:43 PM
Sadly I don’t think we will be getting loads of new abilities with this innocence.
I think it will have a pretty cool ability but mostly rely on its super speed also been powerful enough to battle on par with a level 4, means that a noah is definitely waiting for its arse to be wiped by Lenalee.