One Piece Volume 52 (ch503-512) Discussion

[Akainu]

Like I said, I suppose they will used this 3 days to help the SH recover before going to mermaid island. Concerning the surprise character there is still Garp which we are waiting for more than 6 weeks now

well I for one never read it as though Garp wanted to come. I wouldn't mind if he did, don't get me wrong. but he could do many things to handle such a situation and by now he should already know that Luffy punched a noble and thus Kizaru is on the archipelago.
anyway, if he comes, it's gonna be a lot of fun and talking I suppose (no one should know that he is there; Kizaru should have left by then imo.).
but he could also "handle" the situation with bribing/talking to Vegapunk imo, so that he calls back the PX and Sentoumaru. a nice side effect would be, that we get to know a little bit about vp before SH actually meet him (aka. teaser).

[Onomatopoeia]

Their are to many big guys in SA as of right now. Especially against the SH's favor. If Garp comes then I don't see anyway to avoid the SHs going to Impel Down. That only leaves two possibilities really, Sento and the rest get called back by VP or Garp shows up but so does Shakky. And it turns out that she's insanely strong and fights Garp.

And I'll stick by my prediction of Kizaru winning.

[Lord Rayleigh]

Like I said, I suppose they will used this 3 days to help the SH recover before going to mermaid island. Concerning the surprise character there is still Garp which we are waiting for more than 6 weeks now

Don't worry Shakky is in the island too. After all, she was pursued by Garp. So my prediction is she will come to help the SH and Rayleigh but she'll meet Garp in way and this two ones are going to fight.

So, we will have three places of fight :
- Kid & Law & crews VS PX-?
- SH & Rayleigh VS Kizaru & Sentoumarou & PX-1
- Shakky VS Garp

And by the way Garp recognizing her, we will know more about her and her past : it's the only thing I want.


And about the Haki idea against logia : How can you say it ? Oda has never shown us a thing that could make us think of it ! Are you somewhere else ? Have you read the chapter or not ?!

Just wait a little, you'll know why you can't think of it ... It's just underneath

You are wrong about one fact that made you think about the Haki idea : He didn't stop his light power.
Don't you see the light coming out of his leg, exactly where Rayleigh kicked him ?
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/18-19/

It's obvious. I don't know how people could not have seen it ... It's in the middle of the page ! ! !

[MrTeatime]

True ppl will lose the ability to swim and for them to travel on see is definitely a disadvantage.

I agree with u 100% and couldn't have said it better.
You r free to use everything: if u a DF user, well ok but dont call seastone user cowards.



I would guess, the power will be instantly nullified, but it takes some sec before the DF user start feeling it. That would explain Luffys (a bit) slow reaction on touching the cage and if the cage shouldn't nullified the power instantly, prisons wouldn't work on logia owner, who r able to fire their element without touching the cage.

Actually: NO!

In the era of winddriven ships, most sailors or pirates did NOT know how to swim.
Reason: It wont help you. If you fell into the sea in a storm, theres were no way of saving you anyway.
Start to think about it, what would you do? swim ashore? Not possible, as any sailor knows.
Dive for something? No real use in that.

And for the debate on the rareity of seastone: As I said, if the marine use it on their keels to scare away seakings. Well then its hardly rare.

[LoS]

I dont think anyone would be foolish to say Rayleigh stopped his light power, only made his body tangible.

[Akainu]

well seastone is rare enough, so that only WG and affiliates can make use of it.
I guess a part of the mystery is how it exactly it works and how you can make it usable.
speaking of which, coby only told us they "patch" seastone on the bottom of their ships. it's not as if the hull is made of seastone.

oh and Lord Rayleigh: read the thread properly - if you read it at all. we went through this for enough pages imo and it's a theory just like the seastone sandals were, so calm down.

[Onomatopoeia]

Their is something behind the seastone theory. A lot of people say that it would be near impossible to get Seastone but in Skypeia it seems their was a fair amount. Perhaps theirs a little in Skypeia that we don't know of. And Roger was their so perhaps Rayleigh was able to get some Seastone form them. But still wouldn't Ussop get Seastone from them?

Course this is just a theory and I in know way embrace the Haki or the Seastone theory.

[Mr.Popo]

The players are all gathered!!
It's not entirely impossible for a suprise character like Garp or Shakky to show up in the next chapter, but after this line it is more than doubtful.

And there are enough players already, if you ask me.

The most important confrontation is Kizaru vs. Rayleigh. They are the top dogs right now. We have to count on PX1 and Sentoumaru, but the SHs are pretty much out of the line. Not only are they exhausted, but also one league below their enemies.

So, what can we expect in the next chapter?
Maybe something completly different. Like Kidd/Law or the WB problem.
My personal bet is on some smalltalk between Kizaru and Rayleigh.

Rayleigh can't hope to win against three strong enemies and Kizaru on the other hand can't afford much time for a fight.

Btw.: Kizaru was not the slightest bit surprised to see the "Dark King". It seems he knew that Rayleigh is on Shabondy in the same way Garp does (before the report).

One theory at the end: The only location you can find seastones is Allblue! That would explain why no one knows of or beliefs in this sea, because WG makes it a secret.
(this theory is just wild imagination and NOT based on any hint or fact)

[k-dom]

Their are to many big guys in SA as of right now. Especially against the SH's favor. If Garp comes then I don't see anyway to avoid the SHs going to Impel Down. That only leaves two possibilities really, Sento and the rest get called back by VP or Garp shows up but so does Shakky. And it turns out that she's insanely strong and fights Garp.

And I'll stick by my prediction of Kizaru winning.

for me impel down is out of question. That would mean that they loose the thousand sunny which is Franky dream.

[gold349]

...............................................
And there are enough players already, if you ask me.

The most important confrontation is Kizaru vs. Rayleigh. They are the top dogs right now. We have to count on PX1 and Sentoumaru, but the SHs are pretty much out of the line. Not only are they exhausted, but also one league below their enemies.

So, what can we expect in the next chapter?
Maybe something completly different. Like Kidd/Law or the WB problem.
My personal bet is on some smalltalk between Kizaru and Rayleigh.

Rayleigh can't hope to win against three strong enemies and Kizaru on the other hand can't afford much time for a fight.
.........................................................................
...............................................


The reason I suggest that others, maybe shakky or other ex pirates may have to intervene is, SH's are in no position to fight, Raleigh might be ubber strong but we don't know how he'd cope with 3 powerful opponents plus he has still to coat the sunny, they have to get some sort of break so that they can run for it and do what they have to do to get of Shabondy.

[Lohnt]

Look you're overthinking it, Reileigh only has to worry about Kizaru, Luffy will step up to protect Zoro by facing Sento, and the rest can focus on the PX, now that they've defeated one, maybe Sanji can come up with a way to at least take the other out of action without defeating it.

There's also always Shakky, but as far as the SH being out of action, that's an overstatement. The SH can ALWAYS get up whenever the story needs them to. At the moment they won't have to because Kizaru will go away for whatever reason. I doubt there will be a huge confrontation, but I do think Sento and Luffy will become rivals/enemies before he leaves.

[Imitorar]

(Note: I'm ignoring all posts made in this thread before mine, and all of the Discussion/Prediction threads for chapters 506-510. I wasn't here for them, and they're not worth reading now. So if I mention a theory or prediction or something that has already been discussed, or don't mention any current theories, please forgive me.)

What I'm interested in from this chapters is partly whether the Straw Hats will actually split up (we haven't really had any 3-man teams of Straw Hats since Luffy, Sanji, and Usopp fought Satori and Zoro, Nami, and Robin went exploring.) It'd be nice to see it again, and especially to see how the people in a respective team get along with each other (I mean, Luffy, Robin and Chopper? Come on, that has SO much potential.) and fight together, but in light of Kizaru's arrival, I'm wondering if they're still gonna split up, or stay and help Rayleigh fight, or deal with Sentomaru, or something. I'm hoping they scatter and run for it while Rayleigh holds off the Paxifista, Sentomaru, and Kizaru. Rayleigh seems to want them to get away, and they were planning to, before Kizaru came.

Which brings me to my second item of interest: Rayleigh. Why is he fighting Kizaru? Even if he can win (which isn't likely. He's a bit past his prime, and Kizaru has a lot of back-up, and Kizaru himself IS an Admiral,) he still has Sentomaru and the Paxifista to deal with, unless he can take them and Kizaru together. And even so, he has a ship to coat. There's not much sense in fending off Kizaru and his accompaniment so the Straw Hats can escape if it means delaying the coating of the Thousand Sunny, and therefore, their departure from the Sabaody Islands. And if Rayleigh loses, then the Straw Hats are REALLY screwed, since they'll be stuck on the Sabaody Islands, surrounded by Marines and chaos. I'm not sure how Oda's gonna manage this, since Rayleigh has to buy time for the Straw Hats to escape, then escape himself and and coat the Sunny.

And thirdly, Sentomaru. What kind of defensive technique was he USING to block a Gum Gum Gatling? Luffy's gonna have to find a way around that, either now or later, but I'm wondering how it worked. It's nice to see someone who can fend off Luffy, at least for now, without being a Devil Fruit user. I don't think we've had that since... Franky. And before him Wiper. And before HIM, I think the most recent was Arlong. So a non-Devil Fruit using opponent is very refreshing.

[Koen]

Well don't forget kidd and law. When they faced kuma, we all thought it was the real kuma. Back then we of course saw one kuma. Since shichibukai are at ace's trial, I highly doubt the real kuma is at archipelgo. I also think this might be a reason why sentomaru is at the place, he might be the bodyguard of dr. vegapunk but him being there might be a reason why the real kuma isn't there (remember the kuma facing kidd and law doesn't hold that book). He was observing and might have said: three kuma's is fine.

So if strawhats could defeat the paxifista then I think kidd and law can handle the one they are facing too. They are both capitains and their crew will also be strong. So atm it doesn't look good for raleigh and co against sentomaru, paxifista and kizaru but the tables might turn if law and kidd or other rookies might arrive.

[LoS]

@Imitorar

Well they are already split up, but all still on the same grove, and that is how it will most likely remain. Sentomaru does not want them leaving the grove after all. Someone between the SH's and possibly a mystery fighter will have to deal with the PK1 and Sentomaru.

I am completely against the SH's fighting the PK again, because they just beat one, and it would be a bit repetitive. That being said, I have no clue who would fight Sentomaru or PK1 in that case.


we all thought it was the real kuma.

So if strawhats could defeat the paxifista then I think kidd and law can handle the one they are facing too. They are both capitains and their crew will also be strong. So atm it doesn't look good for raleigh and co against sentomaru, paxifista and kizaru but the tables might turn if law and kidd or other rookies might arrive.

Don't speak for everyone here, there were a few people who guessed he was a Pacifista, before we even knew what they were, due to his lack of gloves and bible.

Kidd + Law + Killer + Bepo >>> Luffy + Extremely injured Zoro + Sanji. So yeah I think it is safe to say they defeated their Pacifista enemy as well. Unless the Pacifistas get weaker the higher the numbers go, like PK1 is stronger and has better abilities than the PK4 the SH's beat.

[Sharingan warrior]

Thoroughly enjoyed the chapter hopefully we get to see why rayleigh gained the nickname dark king maybe it has sumtin to do wid with a devil fruit ability.Also i was wondering how is it possible for him tokick a logia type user

[Lord Rayleigh]

When you kick a logia user, he transforms himself in his power. So, it is possible to kick a logia but you don't hurt him. He just turns in his power.

Here, Kizaru is a light man. So, when Rayleigh kicks him, Kizaru turns in light. But he just have to come back to his normal forme.

So, the true problem is how to hurt a logia, not how to kick it ...

Have a waiting for Oda's answers

[camil222]

k guys in my point of view its impossible to kick a logia type. every logia type we saw could never get hurt. and maybe im wrong but they never said anywhere how to hurt a logia type other than its weakness and water and seastone. other than luffy hitting smoker and ace, we never saw any logia type get hit. and from my point of view it was complete irony from oda. and how can u hit someone that moves at the speed of light when ur not darkness.

well maybe im wrong and please tell me if they say it somewhere how to hit logia type users.

and guys stop it with ur stupid seastone! thats all u guys talk about for like the last 10 pages! if he has seastone on his sandals well ill be pissed cause its a stupid idea, but oda will problably make it look good.

[Yans86]

hey guys,maybe is a stupid theory,but what if this two guys show up???? http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/490/01/ in this chapter are leaving Water Seven to Elbaf,and for sure Elbaf is in the second part of grand line cause Usop want ot go there......and these two only 20 chapter ago where in Water Seven...so....do u think they`ll show up soon or later?!

[Isto]

one thought just crossed my mind

what if rayleigh have mirrors under his sandals ? :) reflects light
(or planned ahead and put some guessing what would happen)

and what if garp's hurry to rayleigh was because he knew what would happen if rayleigh meets kizaru (which we dont know yet) and wanted to avoid that at all costs

[UchihaMadara]

The reflect light idea doesnt work, since Brooks sword goes through him and a metal sword would reflect light.

Im guessing Raleigh may offer to give himself up in exchange for leaving the SH's alone.

[Yans86]

Mirror sandals.....Seastone sandals.....all crap!!!come on guys,do u really think that Oda can do such a thing to beat a Logia?and how could Rayleigh know that the one admiral coming was Kizaru?How could he match his speed?Even if Zoro or Sanji could have seastone sword or seastone shoes there`s no way that they could match Kizaru experience and speed......Rayleigh knows about One PIece,the Will of D,DF power ecc...so why couldn`t he counter Logia with other powers?Oda himself said that there are people stronger than Enel and u know what he could do.....people like Ray,Shanks,Garp,WB for sure can beat him and don`t think with such crap like seastone... so please guys stop!!!!

[mr.danly]

everybody's just flailing around unwilling to admit that they have no idea what Oda's thinking. My guess is that the way to beat Logias has to do with spirit. Sad, but inevitable, I suppose. I just hope that there will never be "Gomu Gomu, Homu, Homu, HAAAAAAAAA!!!!!"

[mundu_king]

If Rayleigh in a tight spot...who will help him?
Shakky might still with Hachi and Caimie,
Strawhat is done for...they only become a burden...
while Kizaru has Sentoumaru and PX1,which he doesnt really need to settle the job...

So who might come to help them?
Does Shanks already got this news(Kizaru fight Strawhat Luffy)?

there is a war going on, with two main fight
that is in the sabaody arc.
a clash between KIZARU (w/c represents the World Government) versus Rayleigh and LUFFY (with the SH's)

and another upcoming war, the ROYAL SHICHIBUKAI vs WHITEBEARD PIRATES.

If Shanks decide to join in, (which he most probably do)
and if he knew about both fight...
wonder which fight he'll join

[ydarsius]

lol @ "Gomu Gomu, Homu, Homu, HAAAAAAAAA!!!!!"

more question?? why sanji pick nami instead robin?? is nami more cuter than robin?? or just because "age" different??

this much better to discuss :)

[Isto]

i think sanji picks both

what if lola's mama is one of the yankou ?

[Tsukisama]

Theorizing who's a member of the Yonkou is off-topic. Please use the convo thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32466) or Tree of Knowledge (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=61) to discuss that topic.

Sanji is in love with all good-looking, young women, but he has always seemed to have a thing for Nami. Perhaps the age issue may have something to do with it, or it could be because he has known her longer and thus has stronger feelings for her. At any rate, this is also somewhat off-topic and a topic best left for the convo thread or the Tree of Knowldege.

Back to the topic.

[LoS]

Even if Luffy is able to fight Sentomaru, he might continue to fight him but definitely not defeat him. He might defeat Sentomaru in FI before he gets into a discussion with Vega Punk. It parallels the Crocodile and Lucci fights in that sense, Luffy fights him first now as more of a test and then when he fights him again he will either have a power up or have found out his weakness.

Regardless of if Luffy can fight Sentomaru who takes care of the PK1? There is no way Sanji, Franky, and Nami can. Frankly I do not believe the SH's collectively without Luffy could defeat PK1 in their current states.

[Akainu]

relatively new theory from APforums:
Dr.Vegapunk hiding inside Sentoumaru ...
...I think I like that theory because of its wierdness, but then again we had something similar with OzMoria, so what's your opinion on that?

[LoS]

I could see VP hiding inside of a Kuma type model, it is much much bigger than Sentomaru's build.

I just thought of an idea, I don't know why I had not thought of this sooner, but anyway here it goes. Sentomaru himself said "he" did not have a DF ability, but what if his Broad Axe has a DF ability? We have seen Vega Punk give someone a weapon that was fed a DF ability before, the head of CP9 after all had it.

Just something interesting I thought could be discussed.

[Lohnt]

If you go back to read some of the earlier volumes on OP, or even watch the anime. You get a concept that we haven't seen for a while, because OP has become too dependant on power rankings ever since CP9.

That concept is that a pirate is a villain, and a pirate does not have to fight fair. Sanji, Krieg, Luffy in many of their battles would "cheat" (although such a concept is retarded when you're talking about life or death battles) in their fights.
Rei is the king of darkness (ambiguous evilness description, much like Trafalgar) if he got to where he got and stayed alive after all these years, it is probably not solely based on his own ability.

Now granted, the whole Hatchi saving him does hint that he possibly has a DF (although ideally he won't) as a pirate king's first hand he would know all the tricks of the pirating world. Including how to 'cheat' at a fight with a Logia. He doesn't need spirit powers, or a DF, he could easily use something that some of you find to be "crap" (which is ridiculous because it has been done before with Enel, as with Crocodile, you need unconventional means to defeat a Logia) such as seastone or mirrors.
All in all it's in the delivery, Kizaru could be allergic to peanuts, and if Oda said Rei has shoes made out of peanuts which temporarily block Kizaru's powers we would all praise the genius mastermind of Rei, because of the delivery.

[Andonan]

Well Lohnt I may not praise Rei if he used peanuts but I would laugh till hell froze over, but I understand what your getting at ahaha :D

[BlackHair]

relatively new theory from APforums:
Dr.Vegapunk hiding inside Sentoumaru ...
...I think I like that theory because of its wierdness, but then again we had something similar with OzMoria, so what's your opinion on that?
Wel, VP was called the genius in term of knowledge and stuff. I doubt he is a fighter type. Even if, he would bring himself in danger by entering the battlefield. I doubt the WG would allow that, since he seems to be important for them.

Therefore, I don't like the idea.. so I will go with "bullshit" xD :D

[Mr.Popo]

Don't you think that, despite all theories and predictions, this arc is a whole different than all the other arcs before?

Let me make a small review about what happens till now (before most of you left to the spoiler thread).

Warmup
It all began with a small warmup fight against the flying fish riders. This is normal practice and not different to other pre-arcs. The SHs also met their arc guides there (Hatchan/Caimie/Pappag).
The only interessting thing here is that we will meet the warmup enemies again as friends and that their guide is also an old enemy from their early days. But it's still perfectly fine.

Main Quest
Next they landed on Shabondy Archipellago. Here the SHs are faced with some problems and one problem (Camie kidnapping) turns out to be the trigger for the main quest (dealing with the injustice of the nobles).

As an interessting new element Oda introduced here other pirate crews (aka supernovae) as rivals to the SHs. And on top of that Oda reveals a big suprise character: Rayleigh!

Now it is time to introduce the boss opponent (admiral), together with some minor bosses (Sentoumaru/pacifista) and their minions (normal marines).

Big Differences
This arc so far developed on normal grounds, what it make exceptional is the introduction of far more big shots than usual, but that is not the big difference i'm talking about.
The big difference is the strength of their enemies.
The enemies where always introduced as strong powerful enemies, some of them even more powerful than the SHs in the first place (e.g. CP9), but all of them where still in the same league than the SHs.

With the SNs Oda introduced some contenders to the SHs and from the way he introduced them we can assume that they are of similar strength than the SHs.

Another League
But the admiral wiped four of them out in an instant!

That puts him FAR ahead of the SHs.
Next comes the introduction of the pacifista: we could witness that the combined full strength of the SHs is necessary to counter only one of them. The pacifista are truly shichibukai level and even more powerful than the last ones.
And last but not least: Sentoumaru. We know less about his fighting power than about the admiral or the pacifista, but from the way he speaks with Kizaru and the way he commands the pacifista we can assume that he is a big shot too. He also had no problem to counterattack (a weakend) Luffy.

No Hope
Now all this three uber strong enemies are facing the SHs at the same time and on top of that all crew members are exhausted and Zorro (main attack force) is still heavily wouded from Thriller Bark.

There is absolutely NO way the SHs could win or even hold the enemy more then a few seconds! This situation never occurs before! Even the fight against Aokiji wasn't that hopeless.

If you want to tell your friend about the fighting forces that are gathered here it is not even worth to mention the SHs, because they are one or two leagues below the rest.
With the emersion of Rayleigh at the fighting scene, our side has a notable contender now, but still one vs. three. The overall situation hasn't changed at all!

What's the meaning of all this?
Oda never introduced a more threatening and more hopeless situtation!
For me he is just saying: "SHs, you are one hundred years too early to enter the new world".

I don't now what's coming next
* Escape?
* Win?
* Capture?
* End of One Piece?

I'm seeing forward to what Oda is planing (with the exception of the last point, of course), but can't even try to make a serious prediction.

[Akainu]

Wel, VP was called the genius in term of knowledge and stuff. I doubt he is a fighter type. Even if, he would bring himself in danger by entering the battlefield. I doubt the WG would allow that, since he seems to be important for them.

Therefore, I don't like the idea.. so I will go with "bullshit" xD :D

well IF he is inside sentomaru, he is inside the man with "the strongest defense there is".
thus no need to fear anything. furthermore it would auit the idea of a "body"guard. no one can hurt VP as long as he resides in there and even if sentomaru is beaten he could flee.
well, we will see if this theory is justified or not. anyway, it's not mine and I don't think it's likely.

[Imitorar]

Sentomaru was worried about how to report the destruction of a Paxifista to Vegapunk. (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/06-07/) That would imply that Vegapunk is NOT inside of him, since Vegapunk would then probably know that the PX-4 had been destroyed. Besides, Vegapunk is a scientist for the Navy. He's not a civilian, but he does have a non-combat role in the Navy. I doubt he leaves Marine Headquarters, or wherever his laboratory is, very often. And certainly not to go into the middle of a battle.

And Lohnt brings up a very good point, although I disagree with him about One Piece becoming too dependant on power rankings since the CP9 Saga (I blame the fans for trying to rank everything and going solely by factors like bounty. The way I see it, Oda himself isn't depending on power rankings much more then he ever did.). Characters in One Piece do have a known tendency to win battles with clever moves, not necessarily powerful ones. Sanji vs. Bon Kurei? Luffy vs. Crocodile II and III? Luffy vs. Foxy? Usopp and Chopper vs. the Mr. 4 Pair? Luffy vs. Enel? etc. It is possible, I'd say probable, that Rayleigh was able to kick Kizaru's leg not through some power (besides, the Dark Dark Fruit and the Shadow Shadow Fruit are taken), but through some sort of clever trick. Mirrors seem like a good idea. Seastone is out of the question, since Kizaru was still able to fire his "Beam" (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/18-19/). If Seastone was touching him, he wouldn't have been able to use his powers at all. And as to the problem of Brook's sword being reflective, yet not piercing Kizaru's leg, well, swords don't reflect too well. It might be that Brook's sword wasn't reflective enough to actually pierce Kizaru. Or it might be that Rayleigh didn't use mirrors, but some other method. I can't think of what it could be, but I'll leave that to Oda.

[Onomatopoeia]

It's actually quite possible that Rayleigh used mirrors since the light was deflected. It's impossible that he used seastone simply because then the light would've stopped completely instead of being deflected in another direction. I also feel that Haki is unlikely simply because people who like the idea of Haki watch Naruto/Bleach/ Hunter*Hunter/ etc. and I'v always felt that Oda will never make One Piece to be anything like other Shonen mangas. As in Naruto has Chakra, Bleach has reitsu and Hunter*Hunter has nen.

Of course when considering all this that point to Mirrors but we can't be very sure. Or perhaps some other object that we don't know of. It's actually possible that Ray is using something sucks in light not reflects it.

[Akagami.Shanks]

This is my first post, even if this isn't my first time reading this interesting forum.

ppl are divided to whether Rayleigh is using Seastone, DF or Haki or just knows some way to encounter Logia DF users. However, we all agree that he has something special that few or none has.
Now since none of us knows what it is ( except ODA and GOD). Then everything we say are just theories and we have to wait for future releases.
First theorie
DF power: Ray has said before that he was saved by Hacchin, and the fact that his nickname is "Dark King" might give us a hint that he has some kind of DF power. Also, I think It's too much of coincidence that his nickname is "Dark King" and Kizaru has a light Logia.
Second theorie:
The use of Haki: knowing how ODA elaborate his ideas. It's safe to say that this is the time to talk more about it. It started with shanks in the first episodes, mentioned again when shanks met WB, luffy knocking out that "HARLEY BULL" and finally with Rayleigh. So again, I think it's safe to assume that Haki might be the key to match logia DF users.

I won't elaborate on Seastone use, we know what seastones do. But I don't see it as a good way to fight Kizaru, he has the speed of light and can shoot lazers, so unless he gets touched by Seastone u can't nuliffy his powers, and good luck catching him.

The last one is something we don't know yet about Logia users, or that Rayleigh knows the weakness of light Logia.

[BlackHair]

It is possible, I'd say probable, that Rayleigh was able to kick Kizaru's leg not through some power (besides, the Dark Dark Fruit and the Shadow Shadow Fruit are taken), but through some sort of clever trick. Mirrors seem like a good idea. Seastone is out of the question, since Kizaru was still able to fire his "Beam" (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/18-19/). If Seastone was touching him, he wouldn't have been able to use his powers at all. And as to the problem of Brook's sword being reflective, yet not piercing Kizaru's leg, well, swords don't reflect too well. It might be that Brook's sword wasn't reflective enough to actually pierce Kizaru. Or it might be that Rayleigh didn't use mirrors, but some other method. I can't think of what it could be, but I'll leave that to Oda.
I dont think seastone is out of qestion. We still dont know how long it takes to affect a DF user and we dont know how logia user reacts to seastone. As we know, Luffy lost only his powers while touching the seastone cage itself (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/169/08/). So Kizaru could still shoot his logia power on seastone materials without damaging it or it could be reflected by seastone like mirrow. As we already know, they can turn near seastone into their materials, if we look at Smoker, but they cant directly touch it. Since Kizrau already prepared his attack and only touched Rays foot for a brief moment, it would explain why he didn't faint.

But dont misunderstood me, I don' support the seastone idea, nor mirrows (which cant be true, since it was rather defected than reflected. If it would have been reflected, it should hit Kizaru and look where Ray hits his knee!, not his lower leg.) or haki.

I think it was just ordinary cheap sandals. He could have hit Kizraus knee exactly at that moment where he was kicking at Zoro. I think for a breif moment his leg turns physical to draw more power or only his lower leg turned into light, coz there was no need to turn his entire body into light. Or Ray posses some para DF ability, like diamond or sth. Which would explain, why his leg didn't got damaged even tho there is so much power behind Kizraus kick.


I also feel that Haki is unlikely simply because people who like the idea of Haki watch Naruto/Bleach/ Hunter*Hunter/ etc. and I'v always felt that Oda will never make One Piece to be anything like other Shonen mangas.
Actually, haki was never considered as weapon in those shounen manga. It is just to erase cannon fodder, not sure about HxH tho. My small haki theory (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=997506&postcount=19) xD


The use of Haki: knowing how ODA elaborate his ideas. It's safe to say that this is the time to talk more about it. It started with shanks in the first episodes, mentioned again when shanks met WB, luffy knocking out that "HARLEY BULL" and finally with Rayleigh.
We don't know for sure, if it rly was haki which effected that bull. But it could have been an early stage of haki, which would explain why the bull didn't faint immediacy. Well, Im no denying of the possibility, but safely assuming, as if it was clearly haki is wrong.

And so far, only weak guys fainted on haki pressure as already explained by Ray. I don't see how it can be used an guy like Kizaru. If it rly should only affect logia user, no matter how strong they r, then it would disappoint me.

Even if its late, let me welcome u :)) Im also a bit longer here, but didn't posted much. Cause I lost interest in OP while TP arc. ^^

[neomaster121]

This is my first post, even if this isn't my first time reading this interesting forum.

ppl are divided to whether Rayleigh is using Seastone, DF or Haki or just knows some way to encounter Logia DF users. However, we all agree that he has something special that few or none has.
Now since none of us knows what it is ( except ODA and GOD). Then everything we say are just theories and we have to wait for future releases.
First theorie
DF power: Ray has said before that he was saved by Hacchin, and the fact that his nickname is "Dark King" might give us a hint that he has some kind of DF power. Also, I think It's too much of coincidence that his nickname is "Dark King" and Kizaru has a light Logia.
Second theorie:
The use of Haki: knowing how ODA elaborate his ideas. It's safe to say that this is the time to talk more about it. It started with shanks in the first episodes, mentioned again when shanks met WB, luffy knocking out that "HARLEY BULL" and finally with Rayleigh. So again, I think it's safe to assume that Haki might be the key to match logia DF users.

I won't elaborate on Seastone use, we know what seastones do. But I don't see it as a good way to fight Kizaru, he has the speed of light and can shoot lazers, so unless he gets touched by Seastone u can't nuliffy his powers, and good luck catching him.

The last one is something we don't know yet about Logia users, or that Rayleigh knows the weakness of light Logia.


i like your idea
its just that i have to say that blackbeard has the darkness fruit so silver can't have it but Zoro has a dark aura and Silver may also have a dark battle aura which he may have used to counter kizaru

i like your idea that he was stranded on the island so why didn't he swim away
could be that its a df or it could be like any normal guy and theirs no point of swimming in a open sea

like sanji in his flashback stayed n waited on the island til help came

edit

welcome n nice first post ^__^

[Imitorar]

I dont think seastone is out of qestion. We still dont know how long it takes to affect a DF user[...]

We don't? I dunno, I think it's been shown that the Devil Fruit powers jam as soon as the Seastone touches them (see here (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/169/08/).) I mean, it took longer when Wiper used Seastone on Enel, but I think that was because that was just powdered Seastone, so it took a bit longer to get enough to weaken Enel. But for an actual solid chunk of Seastone, I think the effect is more or less instantaneous.


and we dont know how logia user reacts to seastone.

Yes, we do (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/275/12/). They react the same as any other Devil Fruit user: their powers are jammed, and if enough of their body is covered in it, their physical strength is sapped. (http://arlongpark.net/Manga/SBS/41)


As we know, Luffy lost only his powers while touching the seastone cage itself (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/169/08/). So Kizaru could still shoot his logia power on seastone materials without damaging it or it could be reflected by seastone like mirrow. As we already know, they can turn near seastone into their materials, if we look at Smoker, but they cant directly touch it. Since Kizrau already prepared his attack and only touched Rays foot for a brief moment, it would explain why he didn't faint and why the beam didn't hit Ray.

Yes, Seastone only affects a Devil Fruit user if they are actually touching it. However, Rayleigh's foot was still touching Kizaru's leg until after Kizaru fired his "Beam", I assume to make sure that he didn't put his foot back down. I admit, it's hard to make out, but if you look at the righmost panel on the second page of the double spread at the end of chapter 511 (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/18-19/), you can see that Rayleigh's leg is still touching Kizaru's. So if there was Seastone involved, it was touching him, yet he still fired the "Beam". Therefore, it can't have been Seastone.


But dont misunderstood me, I don' support the seastone idea, nor mirrows (which cant be true, since it was rather defected thnt reflected. If it would have been reflected, it should hit Kizaru and look where Ray hits his leg!) or haki. I think it was just ordinary cheap sandals. He could have hit Kizraus leg exactly at that moment where he was kicking at Zoro. I think for a breif moment his leg turns physical to draw more power . Or Ray posses some para DF abilty, like diamond or sth. Which would explain, why his leg didn't got damaged even tho there is so much power behind Kizraus leg.

Actually, haki was never considered as weapon in those shounen manga. My small haki theory (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=997506&postcount=19) xD

I don't see why mirrors can't work. Rayleigh wasn't deflecting Kizaru's attack, he never touched the "Beam". He touched Kizaru's leg. So if you think about it, reflection DOES work there, because reflection would stop Kizaru's leg from turning into light and scattering, since the light would be forced back on itself. And as for Haki... The things some One Piece fans say about Haki sicken me. (I'm not saying you say them, I read your Haki theory and I think you're right, and I know you don't think Rayleigh used Haki to hit Kizaru). Haki has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING that will let a person kick through light. It just doesn't work that way. It's not a fighting technique, it's not a power. It's just a symptom of a guy being incredibly powerful. And as to a diamond Devil Fruit... I don't think so, I got the impression from Buggy's flashback that Roger's crew weren't really into Devil Fruits. And it just doesn't seem likely, Rayleigh being a Devil Fruit use. I can't give anything to back it up, but Rayleigh having a diamond fruit just doesn't seem likely to me. I'm not sure why.

I actually don't like the mirror theory so much myself, though at the moment, it seems the second most likely. (The most likely is "Oda has some random twist or power that we're probably never gonna guess"). I mean, it seems pretty evident by now that the only way to take down a Logia is to cover yourself in a substance that can touch the Logia user's element. Moisture can touch sand, rubber can touch electricity, fire can touch smoke, etc. So using mirrors to touch light would fit. But it seems too... specific. Why would Rayleigh have mirror-bottomed sandals? Just for Kizaru? That seems unlikely. It makes more sense to say that Rayleigh stopped Kizaru with something that was just part of his fighting style, but I'm not sure of what that could be. It could have something to do with his epithet of "Dark King", but like I said, the Dark Dark Fruit and the Shadow Shadow Fruit are taken. What other Devil Fruits could there be that would give power over some sort of darkness?

[neomaster121]

We don't? I dunno, I think it's been shown that the Devil Fruit powers jam as soon as the Seastone touches them (see here (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/169/08/).) I mean, it took longer when Wiper used Seastone on Enel, but I think that was because that was just powdered Seastone, so it took a bit longer to get enough to weaken Enel. But for an actual solid chunk of Seastone, I think the effect is more or less instantaneous.



Yes, we do (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/275/12/). They react the same as any other Devil Fruit user: their powers are jammed, and if enough of their body is covered in it, their physical strength is sapped. (http://arlongpark.net/Manga/SBS/41)



Yes, Seastone only affects a Devil Fruit user if they are actually touching it. However, Rayleigh's foot was still touching Kizaru's leg until after Kizaru fired his "Beam", I assume to make sure that he didn't put his foot back down. I admit, it's hard to make out, but if you look at the righmost panel on the second page of the double spread at the end of chapter 511 (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/511/18-19/), you can see that Rayleigh's leg is still touching Kizaru's. So if there was Seastone involved, it was touching him, yet he still fired the "Beam". Therefore, it can't have been Seastone.



I don't see why mirrors can't work. Rayleigh wasn't deflecting Kizaru's attack, he never touched the "Beam". He touched Kizaru's leg. So if you think about it, reflection DOES work there, because reflection would stop Kizaru's leg from turning into light and scattering, since the light would be forced back on itself. And as for Haki... The things some One Piece fans say about Haki sicken me. (I'm not saying you say them, I read your Haki theory and I think you're right, and I know you don't think Rayleigh used Haki to hit Kizaru). Haki has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING that will let a person kick through light. It just doesn't work that way. It's not a fighting technique, it's not a power. It's just a symptom of a guy being incredibly powerful. And as to a diamond Devil Fruit... I don't think so, I got the impression from Buggy's flashback that Roger's crew weren't really into Devil Fruits. And it just doesn't seem likely, Rayleigh being a Devil Fruit use. I can't give anything to back it up, but Rayleigh having a diamond fruit just doesn't seem likely to me. I'm not sure why.

I actually don't like the mirror theory so much myself, though at the moment, it seems the second most likely. (The most likely is "Oda has some random twist or power that we're probably never gonna guess"). I mean, it seems pretty evident by now that the only way to take down a Logia is to cover yourself in a substance that can touch the Logia user's element. Moisture can touch sand, rubber can touch electricity, fire can touch smoke, etc. So using mirrors to touch light would fit. But it seems too... specific. Why would Rayleigh have mirror-bottomed sandals? Just for Kizaru? That seems unlikely. It makes more sense to say that Rayleigh stopped Kizaru with something that was just part of his fighting style, but I'm not sure of what that could be. It could have something to do with his epithet of "Dark King", but like I said, the Dark Dark Fruit and the Shadow Shadow Fruit are taken. What other Devil Fruits could there be that would give power over some sort of darkness?


nicely done preety much explained what i failed to explain about seastones

blackhair this does show that silver wasn't using a seastone
but what was he using it could be a nature df ability which i doubt since the darkness ones taken

or haki in my opinion

[PirateMusician]

New topic! (Although I haven't been able to keep up with the entire thread this week -- so apologies if this has been brought up already.)

Concerning the split into groups, has anybody noticed that all the hammers (Brooke's hardly a hammer since he can walk on water) are in one group? And of course Kizaru can't swim, so... here's what I see happening!

At Rayleigh's instruction, the SH's flee to the sea! They could even stick bubbles on their heads like the nobles, so they could breath (for a bit at least) underwater... Maybe the PX could follow them, but Kizaru couldn't... It's also a way for Caime and Hacchi to get involved again, maybe carrying Zoro and/or the hammers...

I don't see Luffy running away though... either by himself, or with Chopper and Robin, I think he'll face Sento, while witnessing the epic Rayleigh-Kizaru fight...

not that any of this will happen! It's futile to try to predict Oda, after all :p

[Lohnt]

I actually don't like the mirror theory so much myself, though at the moment, it seems the second most likely. (The most likely is "Oda has some random twist or power that we're probably never gonna guess"). I mean, it seems pretty evident by now that the only way to take down a Logia is to cover yourself in a substance that can touch the Logia user's element. Moisture can touch sand, rubber can touch electricity, fire can touch smoke, etc. So using mirrors to touch light would fit. But it seems too... specific. Why would Rayleigh have mirror-bottomed sandals? Just for Kizaru? That seems unlikely. It makes more sense to say that Rayleigh stopped Kizaru with something that was just part of his fighting style, but I'm not sure of what that could be. It could have something to do with his epithet of "Dark King", but like I said, the Dark Dark Fruit and the Shadow Shadow Fruit are taken. What other Devil Fruits could there be that would give power over some sort of darkness?

Yea, I actually agree with this, and ideally, it is related to his fighting style rather than a gimmick. But again that's personal taste, at the moment there is no way to tell what Oda has planned. He could have the Eclipse Fruit, or a variation of the darkness fruit.

But honestly I don't think anyone really wants him to be a Logia.. much less a df user. This would make Zoro and Sanji seem like characters with lost potential because they have not eaten DFs.

[Superman]

1.) Wel, VP was called the genius in term of knowledge and stuff.

2.) Therefore, I don't like the idea.. so I will go with "bullshit" xD :D

1.)= Exacly and that is why he dont has such a stupid idea.
2.)= Coudn`t said it better.


What's the meaning of all this?
Oda never introduced a more threatening and more hopeless situtation!
For me he is just saying: "SHs, you are one hundred years too early to enter the new world".

I don't now what's coming next
* Escape?
* Win?
* Capture?
* End of One Piece?

I'm seeing forward to what Oda is planing (with the exception of the last point, of course), but can't even try to make a serious prediction.

This is a great moment to see Dragon fight, isnt it?!

[BlackHair]

We don't? I dunno, I think it's been shown that the Devil Fruit powers jam as soon as the Seastone touches them (see here (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/169/08/).) I mean, it took longer when Wiper used Seastone on Enel, but I think that was because that was just powdered Seastone, so it took a bit longer to get enough to weaken Enel. But for an actual solid chunk of Seastone, I think the effect is more or less instantaneous.As I was writing that part I was thinking at the anime version of Luffy touching the cage in Rainbase, Alabasta. It took him some time, even if it was just a few sec, to notice that his power were drawn away. It could be also his stupidity, but if we compare it with Enel, it would match.

On the other hand like u said, Viper may have used only powdered seastone, its rare after all, then it would match Luffys stupidity.

So going with, "we dont know for sure" sounds good imo :P



Yes, we do (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/275/12/). They react the same as any other Devil Fruit user: their powers are jammed, and if enough of their body is covered in it, their physical strength is sapped. (http://arlongpark.net/Manga/SBS/41)
I was asking myself, what if the logia user are already in their element form, would seastone turn it back to their physical body? Or would the element vanish? or keep moving away? In Smokers case, he was wearing a jacket, which kept the seastone from touching his naked skin. And Viper was using it onto a physical Enel.

Thats why, I said we don't know how logia react to seastone and I still don't.

Obviously, their element cant harm seastone, otherwise cages of lattice wouldn't work.




I don't see why mirrors can't work. Rayleigh wasn't deflecting Kizaru's attack, he never touched the "Beam". He touched Kizaru's leg. So if you think about it, reflection DOES work there, because reflection would stop Kizaru's leg from turning into light and scattering, since the light would be forced back on itself.

If we look exactly at the panel, Ray kicked at his knee not his lower leg. From previous Kizarus kick attacks, I got the impression of the beam coming directly out of his feet and parts of the lower leg. So by using force onto his knee, he deflected the beam into another direction. That's why mirrors couldn't have worked. And like u said, its unlikely Ray running with mirror sandals.

And that diamond fruit was just an stupid example. I made a think failure, he was touching Kizs knee, so he didn't actually faced Kiz kick power. Would even explain, why his leg didn't hurt.

Im now even more confident into my theory of ordinary sandals.



blackhair this does show that silver wasn't using a seastone
but what was he using it could be a nature df ability which i doubt since the darkness ones taken or haki in my opinion
I never said that. I said myself, "its not out of question" and I did explained why. I just don't support the idea.

But mirror are wrong imo.

1. DF
2. normal sandal (my favo)
3. haki

One of these three I guess.

[Superman]

nicely done preety much explained what i failed to explain about seastones

blackhair this does show that silver wasn't using a seastone
but what was he using it could be a nature df ability which i doubt since the darkness ones taken

or haki in my opinion

of course its haki i dont see anything else

[PirateMusician]

1. DF
2. normal sandal (my favo)
3. haki

One of these three I guess.

I'm for #2, with a twist. 'cause...

It's been stated earlier in the thread -- but the soap around the island may be Kizaru's weakness. Soap bubbles scatter light, after all, so it works enough for Oda physics.

And if Rayleigh has been coating the Sunny, it stands to reason his otherwise normal sandals would be covered in the stuff.

Only problem I see with this is it seems kinda stupid for Kizaru to go to the one place where he's weakest, but then again he does seem a bit dim for a light-man ;)

[EPG Vengeance]

Hello everyone. I have been reading most of the posts here and theories about ray having seastone sandles or whatever lol. but i dont think he is using anything of such sort..does anyone remember way back when luffy was in a bar and accidently crashed into ace or blackbeard i dnt knw exactly when tho..but they are both logia users and luffy didnt phase through them or whatever..they were surprised and didnt see it coming they had there guard down and thats when they were able to be physically touched its just a thought but what if logia users can be physically harmed when they are surprised..shoot Kizaru didnt expect ray to jump like that and kick his leg he was caught off guard.
[hr]
its just a thought..i know i used they alot but i was reffering to either ace or blackbeard i dnt knw who luffy crashed into..

[dsr]

Vegapunk can be in the Archipelago because SENTOUMARU was already in Shabondy before Luffy kicked the tenryubito's ass.

[Akagami.Shanks]

EPG Vengeance, you have a nice theory too!

About Dr Vegapunk. I can't tell for sure if he's on the island or not.
The fact that Sentoumaru is his personal body guard gives an impression that he is close by. But at the same time, we shouldn't forget that Kizaru brought the troops "Pacifitas" with him after he heard what SH did. So maybe Vegapunk sent his personal body guard to watch closely and asses the fake Kumas, AFter all, Sentoumaru made it clear that he has to report to vegapunk what happened which means that he's not around the battle, but not necessarily the island.

[camil222]

yo man it was smoker and ace and trust me it was pure irony more than anything else.

and thats true about vegapunk. it makes complete sense. if sentoumaru is there then vegapunk has to be there, hes his personal body guard. and it doesnt mean that hes not on the island if he has to report to him. and sentoumaru was there way before the pacifista and kizaru came on the archipelago. but why the hell would he be on this island? probably a research about the groves resine and how to get to fishman island or something.

[gold349]

Hello everyone. I have been reading most of the posts here and theories about ray having seastone sandles or whatever lol. but i dont think he is using anything of such sort..does anyone remember way back when luffy was in a bar and accidently crashed into ace or blackbeard i dnt knw exactly when tho..but they are both logia users and luffy didnt phase through them or whatever..they were surprised and didnt see it coming they had there guard down and thats when they were able to be physically touched its just a thought but what if logia users can be physically harmed when they are surprised..shoot Kizaru didnt expect ray to jump like that and kick his leg he was caught off guard.
<hr noshade size="1">
its just a thought..i know i used they alot but i was reffering to either ace or blackbeard i dnt knw who luffy crashed into..


Luffy crashed into Smoker and Ace, out of everything thats been posted you make the most sense IMO. Just as your eg. plus the way apoo hit kizaru by suprise so Raleigh has kicked his leg catching him off guard, that is all there was to it.

[dsr]

Thanks camil222, I think that Vegapunk is in Shabondy to gather some cannon fodder to build the PXs and he was looking for them in the auction houses.

By the way, it's amazing how Oda manages to fool us all every week.
We predict a lot and the most of times we fail XD.

"Dark King" must be something related to SR ability, not necessarily a DF ability, surely not something based on his behaviour.

Something that is quite old, but how and why Silver's was captured and brought to the auction house.

[Akagami.Shanks]

Thanks camil222, I think that Vegapunk is in Shabondy to gather some cannon fodder to build the PXs and he was looking for them in the auction houses.

By the way, it's amazing how Oda manages to fool us all every week.
We predict a lot and the most of times we fail XD.

"Dark King" must be something related to SR ability, not necessarily a DF ability, surely not something based on his behaviour.

Something that is quite old, but how and why Silver's was captured and brought to the auction house.

He was caught in purpose because he gambled and failed to pay his debt, he also mentioned he was going to rob the person who buys him, and I guess go back to drink and gamble.

[Onomatopoeia]

Luffy crashed into Smoker and Ace, out of everything thats been posted you make the most sense IMO. Just as your eg. plus the way apoo hit kizaru by suprise so Raleigh has kicked his leg catching him off guard, that is all there was to it.

Some people think that Smoker/Ace thing was also their for comedy. But yeah your right it's possible that Ray only took him by surprise.

[dsr]

Thanks Akagami.Shanks, I didn't remember the reason and I was wondering why he was quiet like an Indian Cow since he could have put everyone asleep. XD

[Lohnt]

Regarding Luffy crashing into Ace and Smoker:
This is a discussion that has been going on for years, but in this case, I doubt it's what happened.

In Skypeia, while Enel was "asleep," a native tried to shoot him/stab him etc unsuccessfully. The conclusion was that a Logia when aware, is in his active element state, and therefore CANNOT be taken by surprise.

When Kizaru was about to kick Zoro, he was using his Logia ability, so he was about to shoot out a laser/turn his leg/kick into a laser light whatever thing. So he activated his elemental form, which is why we're having this HUGE discussion about why/how Rei hit his knee.

My point is, it's not so simple as "Kizaru was taken by surprise," because he was in his elemental form. It's a nice theory, but if you read Skypeia, it doesn't add up. Besides, what would the point of Kizaru kicking him in surprise be, if he can't hurt Kizaru anymore? Wouldn't it be smarter if he only has ONE shot to hit Kizaru by surprise, to put a bullet in his brain?

my two cents.

[camil222]

i think apoo was able to hit kizaru because he uses music as a weapon. music travels threw air and other elements just like light, even tho its not really an element. plus he couldnt hurt him cause logia type users can just rematerialize after getting hit, so its pretty much the same thing as hiting him.

[whahappaz]

I think its by spirit power. If mihawk were to slice kizaru, kizaru wouldnt be able to block it. than again, mihawk is the best swords men. who by the way would tear up wb. anyway, i think rayleigh spirit power is able to hit kizaru, not at 100% but good enough to do damage.

[k-dom]

Yes, we do (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/275/12/). They react the same as any other Devil Fruit user: their powers are jammed, and if enough of their body is covered in it, their physical strength is sapped. (http://arlongpark.net/Manga/SBS/41)



That's not completely true the power is not suppressed. Only the user is incapable to use it. Remember in cocoyashi Nojiko and Gen-san were able to stretch Luffy, so the power still remains

[camil222]

k i dont kno why u guys talk about elemental form and shit like that! when u eat a fruit, no matter what ur body will take the form of the fruit u ate. like for example luffy is made of ruber. he doesnt activates his rubber power! hes always made of rubber, like 24/7! so its obviously the same thing with logia fruits, ur body is always made of an element. so no matter what u cant hit them, and if u can well its cause u kno there weakness. like fuck man rayleigh obvioulsy came back cause he knew hes the only one capable of defeating kizaru. like why would he come and leave the ship and go up against a marine admiral when hes one of the most wanted man on earth.

[Lohnt]

camil, i'm sorry but you're incorrect. Logia abilities are completely different from Paramecia abilities.

If you read the Ace vs Blackbeard fight, Blackbeard clearly states he 'allows' his body to be hit in order to use his ability more efficiently. Logia users can turn back into their physical body whenever they want, and ussually do turn into their physical body when unconcious (Luffy crashing into Ace and Smoker).

Luffy cannot turn off his rubber state, he is permanently rubber because he is a Paramecia.

This topic has nothing to do with Logia and Paramecia's though.
It also has nothing to do with whether Mihawk would tear Whitebeard up or not.

[Nyueh]

While we're at mihaw I think the ultimate swordsman is the one who can cut everything including elements.

I think this ever since in one of the last chapters of skypia arc zoro says that he was too weak and should be able to cut elements. Not exactly like what I'm saying but it's pretty similiar, its before the usopp and zoro tone dial scene I think ^^

[monkey D luffy]

Some people think that Smoker/Ace thing was also their for comedy. But yeah your right it's possible that Ray only took him by surprise.
dont forget that luffy was able to kick aokiji to the sky when he was off guard and only while he was in the sky he turned into ice

[BlackHair]

Regarding Luffy crashing into Ace and Smoker:
This is a discussion that has been going on for years, but in this case, I doubt it's what happened.
Since Oda drew it I will stick with it. U should as well or better stop reading OP :P



In Skypeia, while Enel was "asleep," a native tried to shoot him/stab him etc unsuccessfully. The conclusion was that a Logia when aware, is in his active element state, and therefore CANNOT be taken by surprise.
Why should Enel sleep in the middle of a war? Obviously that was his attitude/stupid joke. He has his sharp mantra, whereby he was able to prepare for it.



When Kizaru was about to kick Zoro, he was using his Logia ability, so he was about to shoot out a laser/turn his leg/kick into a laser light whatever thing. So he activated his elemental form, which is why we're having this HUGE discussion about why/how Rei hit his knee. My point is, it's not so simple as "Kizaru was taken by surprise," because he was in his elemental form.
My theory, he just turned his lower leg and feet to his elemental form. That may explain why Ray was able to deflect the beam by kicking into his knee.



Besides, what would the point of Kizaru kicking him in surprise be, if he can't hurt Kizaru anymore? Wouldn't it be smarter if he only has ONE shot to hit Kizaru by surprise, to put a bullet in his brain?

It seems like a guy of Kizaru calibre has a all-time Tekkai or sth. If u reread the part of his landing, there was a guy who shot a bullet without hurting him. There was still smoke on Kizarus neck, so the bullet hit him. Dont think u can kill that guy easily with weapons, beside seastone, prop only by direct fighting.

Ray may have a DF which would him help fighting Kizaru or he will pull out sth, who knows. But certainly, that wasn't the last time he hit him.

btw, if I think about it, Ray may even offer his life to save the SHs. After reading his stuff about new age etc. I doubt Oda would let him die, but I think he may have to sacrifice sth.


I think its by spirit power. If mihawk were to slice kizaru, kizaru wouldnt be able to block it. than again, mihawk is the best swords men. who by the way would tear up wb. anyway, i think rayleigh spirit power is able to hit kizaru, not at 100% but good enough to do damage. Why r ppl hating WB? Is it 'cause of his beard? I know it looks stupid..
Mihawk = strongest swordsman
Whitebeard = strongest Man

Mihawk is a man, who uses a sword. Meanwhile WB is the strongest man, isn't it obvious who is superior? That is WB. He was labeled as the strongest man by Oda himself, stop thinking and read what Oda writes.


I think this ever since in one of the last chapters of skypia arc zoro says that he was too weak and should be able to cut elements. Not exactly like what I'm saying but it's pretty similiar, its before the usopp and zoro tone dial scene I think ^^
I cant imagine him or some1 else cutting through elements, without seastone or some kind of ability. Its like if u have to cut through thunder( Enel) and many other.


k i dont kno why u guys talk about elemental form and shit like that! when u eat a fruit, no matter what ur body will take the form of the fruit u ate. [..]As Lohnt (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1001291&postcount=263)already said, there is a huge difference between Para and Logia. While Para is always solid, logia can be liquid or gaseous, depending on the DF. U can't hurt that without proper equipment i.e seastone or the elements weakness. Its like some1 would ask u to beat the crap out of water.


of course its haki i dont see anything elsewhat about his sandal? :D

Anyway, thank u EPG Vengeance (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1001129&postcount=249) for bringing that up. I totally forget about that one. Ray took him definitely out of surprise. I know Ussope and Brook where trying to stop his kick/beam, but if they both were aiming only for his feet/lower leg, where apparently the light gathered/charged, that would would explain why Ray was able to hit his knee. Like said earlier, Kizaru has some sort of all-time Tekkai, so there wasn't basically a need for him to turn his whole body into elemental form. Obviously there is no clear fact, but I like the idea more that haki, ss sandal or mirror.

Ordinary sandals FTW!

[whahappaz]

While we're at mihaw I think the ultimate swordsman is the one who can cut everything including elements.

I think this ever since in one of the last chapters of skypia arc zoro says that he was too weak and should be able to cut elements. Not exactly like what I'm saying but it's pretty similiar, its before the usopp and zoro tone dial scene I think ^^

That is true, but noobs dont understand that mihawk can cut anything. last i checked, a skilled fighter vs a skilled fighter with a sword. the skilled fighter with the sword wins. so wb strongest man, vs best swordsman? its only common sense, mihawk would win. mihawk is a man who will die if loses. he is alive. wb is a turd and is old.

[Onomatopoeia]

Blackhair I will repeat this one last time for you. Please remember it


Strength means nothing in OP!

Luffy is stronger then Zoro but his weakness includes swords so in a battle Luffy would lose to Zoro but Luffy is overall stronger. Against pretty much anybody else Luffy>Zoro.
In a battle with Enel Oz or Lucci would get owned horrificly. Yet Oz and Lucci both seem stronger.

Strength means nothing.

Thats why Mihawk/Kizaru/Aokiji could all beat him.

[neomaster121]

Blackhair I will repeat this one last time for you. Please remember it


Strength means nothing in OP!

Luffy is stronger then Zoro but his weakness includes swords so in a battle Luffy would lose to Zoro but Luffy is overall stronger. Against pretty much anybody else Luffy>Zoro.
In a battle with Enel Oz or Lucci would get owned horrificly. Yet Oz and Lucci both seem stronger.

Strength means nothing.

Thats why Mihawk/Kizaru/Aokiji could all beat him.

what are u serious

u pick a logia and a giant who luffy had either a natural rival to, logia guy, and who needed a cheap power up n i mean nightmere luffy and his crew to beat oz yet u think u can use those enemies to say luffy must be stronger than Zoro

in fact lucci luffy barely won that was a match of will power

also Zoro and sanji both deflected powers of odz which is already stronger than luffys gear 3 considering luffy only out matched it in strength in Nightmere mode thus showing that luffy gear 3 normal mode sanji and Zoro could handle fighting that power

im not bashing you just saying points against what you were saying

[Onomatopoeia]

what are u serious

u pick a logia and a giant who luffy had either a natural rival to, logia guy, and who needed a cheap power up n i mean nightmere luffy and his crew to beat oz yet u think u can use those enemies to say luffy must be stronger than Zoro

in fact lucci luffy barely won that was a match of will power

also Zoro and sanji both deflected powers of odz which is already stronger than luffys gear 3 considering luffy only out matched it in strength in Nightmere mode thus showing that luffy gear 3 normal mode sanji and Zoro could handle fighting that power

im not bashing you just saying points against what you were saying

Yeah and Luffy took out Shadow Asgard Moria, and Shadow Asgard Moria>>>>>Oz. So what you just said is irrelevant

And more importantly Lucci was almost double the doukiri of of Kaku, had WAY more experience over Kaku, was said to be strongest member of CP9, and as everybody knows carnivorous DFs are more dangerous then their herbivouros counterparts.

[neomaster121]

Yeah and Luffy took out Shadow Asgard Moria, and Shadow Asgard Moria>>>>>Oz. So what you just said is irrelevant

And more importantly Lucci was almost double the doukiri of of Kaku, had WAY more experience over Kaku, was said to be strongest member of CP9, and as everybody knows carnivorous DFs are more dangerous then their herbivouros counterparts.

are u serious

in that mode moria was on deaths Door

even Zoro realised that
All luffy had to do was continuely hit that guy until he spat out the shadows

he was even loosing his powers over the shadows,

that wasn't a power up for moria
just a desperate act

but this is all my opinion

[dinothegrinch]

this is my first post, ive always been reading your predictions and discussions, and they have been really great...indeed this chapter was great as always, pretty dramatic if you ask me, with luffy crying tears of joy when the "dark king" came to save his first mate zoro.

this might be a little far-fetched and cheesy, but what if ray had a mirror on the bottom of his sandals? Because the only thing that can deflect a light beam is a mirror right? correct me if i'm wrong but last time i checked a mirror can bend light. My prediction is most likely wrong, and i know people will be attacking me with your responses, but i thought that COULD be one possibility.

[Onomatopoeia]

And to put question on your last statement... where exactly did Zoro block Oz's attacks? Sanji might have deflected or he might have just sent it upwards a few feet, it's impossible to tell. But my main question is where did Zoro take Oz's attack and deflect it? I'm to lazy to search for it right now.

[Lohnt]

Since Oda drew it I will stick with it. U should as well or better stop reading OP :P

I said I doubt this (regarding Kizaru) is what is happening in this case. Not that I doubt what has already happened.


Why should Enel sleep in the middle of a war? Obviously that was his attitude/stupid joke. He has his sharp mantra, whereby he was able to prepare for it.

I used quotes on 'asleep' because I was trying to show exactly what you said, that he didn't let his guard down, but he did fall asleep



Ray may have a DF which would him help fighting Kizaru or he will pull out sth, who knows. But certainly, that wasn't the last time he hit him.

I didn't say that will be the last time he will hit him, I said if (in the situation that) the theory of Rei hitting him by surprise is true, then he won't get another chance to hit him. Obviously Rei did not hit Kizaru by surprise, he used some other fighting tactic (DF/Spirit/Seastone).

I was against the discussion turning into a vs topic, and I disagree about your tekkai theory. Kizaru is fully light when he fights the SN, and when he fights the SH, this is why Apoo broke him and he was able to become one again without bleeding or showing he was hurt.
But all in all, thanks for misreading my entire post and agreeing with my points although you made it seem like my points were completely the opposite of what they were.

[EPG Vengeance]

Hey just want to thank Akagami Shanks, Gold39, And Blackhair. Thanks for reading my post and actually somewhat agreed with it lol i thought i was gonna get flammed or something..Also want to thank the person who actually brought up the battle between akojii and luffy i forgot luffy was able to knock him into the air..my theory for next chapter is theres gonna be some type of discussion between Ray and Kizaru while possible Robin will move zoro out of danger..as well as there will be something between luffy and Sent. the chapter will probably reveal how ray was truly able to hit kizaru and possible reveal some information about ray in the past and if there is some type of fighting itd probably b left as a cliffhanger at the end of the chapter and keep us guessing again lol and maybe a random appearence by garp

[BlackHair]

My last time posting regarding Whitebeard and Mihawk in this thread. If u want to discuss (with me xD) then do it in the tree of knowledge. I like this sort of discussion and Im always in for this kind of stuff. Im also apologizing for going offoptic, again and again.. :D


That is true, but noobs dont understand that mihawk can cut anything. last i checked, a skilled fighter vs a skilled fighter with a sword. the skilled fighter with the sword wins. so wb strongest man, vs best swordsman? its only common sense, mihawk would win. mihawk is a man who will die if loses. he is alive. wb is a turd and is old.
Seriously dude, stop calling other ppl noobs if u write senseless posts.

Skilled fighter vs Skilled fighter with sword?!?! R u honestly basing ur reasoning on this? We don't know anything about his fighting style, so plz stop portraying it like facts! Maybe WB is using DF with immense destruction ability like Enels, or he uses a cannon, hammer, eggs, thongs, crap.. hell I don't know, cause Oda didn't said anything. So stop talking as he would fight bare handed without anything at all. Even if, he is still stronger, cause he posses the superior title, like Oda said.

Both r human, man! Swordsman vs Strongest man In term of fighting the strongest would win. In term of swordsmanship, the best swordsman would win. Mihawk is a man, who fights WB, another man. So if by any chance both should fight, WB would win, cause both would use their methods of fighting e.g weapon, fighting style etc they r most familiar with. Just coz WB was using his sword with Shanks, doesn't make him to a swordsman.

WB is turd and old, like u said and will still manage to beat the crap out of Mihawk. Oda - God of One Piece, not me or some1 else, labeled him as the strongest. Stick with Oda, if u don't want to, stop reading OP. I don't get why ppl r doubting this.

Next time plz stop using words like "common sense". Soon Zoro will cut him into tiny pieces, so cry me a river.



Blackhair I will repeat this one last time for you. Please remember it


Strength means nothing in OP!

Luffy is stronger then Zoro but his weakness includes swords so in a battle Luffy would lose to Zoro but Luffy is overall stronger. Against pretty much anybody else Luffy>Zoro.
In a battle with Enel Oz or Lucci would get owned horrificly. Yet Oz and Lucci both seem stronger.

Strength means nothing.

Thats why Mihawk/Kizaru/Aokiji could all beat him.
Stronger means, who would win a fight. IF, like u said Zoro could cut and kill Luffy, then he is stronger. What is the point in calling Luffy stronger then him, if he cant win? does it rly makes any sense to u? For me not even a bit! Its not the Olympics with different classes, we r obviously talking about a fight.
(btw Im not saying Zoro is stronger, so dont misunderstand me, just an example)

If u go out on street and fight some1 by both sides agreeing to the fight and u lose and still claim u r stronger then him, what would the bystander think of u? Its not a kid fight, it doesn't matter what u use as long there isn't any violation of their agreement.
Luffy would have know about Zoro using swords or Wb, of Mihawk using swords.

Oda called Whitebeard the strongest, without giving information on his fighting style. Therefore, we don't know what he is capable of and that's why u reasoning of rock-paper-scissors system wouldn't work, imo. And that is prop also the reason Oda kept his ability/fighting style secret to reveal other chars first, then to come up with a ultimate skill for WB, to make him the strongest <- my theory, without clear facts.

WB would win anyone on this planet (op world) in a fair 1vs1 fight, where both of them fights on a neutral field without any advantages for each of them.

Why would Oda call him the strongest if he isn't? He was labeled now the strongest. That would mean, since he was called equal to Roger, that he is carrying that title for 22 years and he is old. Doesn't it make him more awesome? Again, it was Oda, not me. Why cant u guys just accept it?

Another theory of mine : the very existing of this character was prop only done to turn the PK into a huge wall, so that Luffy can surpass him -> WB/Roger. Mihawk said to Luffy that his goal is even harder beaten him. I know in term of PK there is more competition.




this might be a little far-fetched and cheesy, but what if ray had a mirror on the bottom of his sandals? Because the only thing that can deflect a light beam is a mirror right? correct me if i'm wrong but last time i checked a mirror can bend light. My prediction is most likely wrong, and i know people will be attacking me with your responses, but i thought that COULD be one possibility.
Welcome :D

Well, imo it cant be mirror. Cause Ray was hitting his knee and as far as I can tell, his beam comes out of his feet/lower leg. Ray deflected the beam by hitting his knee, so the beam didn't touched Ray. Therefore it cant be mirrors. And actually, I highly doubt Ray is walking with mirror sandals around.

Well, my opinion, of course there aint no clear fact.



But all in all, thanks for misreading my entire post and agreeing with my points although you made it seem like my points were completely the opposite of what they were. I reread ur post and Im honestly sry about that. I don't know what happened.. but seems like I misread quite a part. Truly sry.



Obviously Rei did not hit Kizaru by surprise, he used some other fighting tactic (DF/Spirit/Seastone).
Ray did hit him out of surprise, definitely. I marked with red circules (http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8531/1819bd3.jpg), tbh Im not sure about Kizs face, since its always weird, but well..

For example: U have a gun with only 1 bullet for 2 enemies. 1 guy is is lying half dead in front of u and the other is charging prepared to attack u. Who would u try to hit with ur remaining bullet?

It doesn't make any sense, still to aim at Zoro if u see Ray charging at u.



and I disagree about your tekkai theory. Kizaru is fully light when he fights the SN, and when he fights the SH, this is why Apoo broke him and he was able to become one again without bleeding or showing he was hurt.
Yes, he was fully light as Appo hit him. But he was more or less waiting for Appos attack. It took some time for his dance/song and it wasn't by far fast/good enough to take Kiz out of surprise. And since he didn't know what was coming, he may have changed into his light and not only Tekkai.

I know, its a very weak theory but atm I cant see other way to support his normal sandals. xD I cant imagine seaestone/mirror Sandals or even haki.

But he must have used Tekkai as the guy shot at him, after his landing, so he must be capable of that. Givin by his reaction, he did that unconsciously, as if he had all time tekkai. Well expected of an Admiral.


[..]that he didn't let his guard down, but he did fall asleep
R u saying he did fall asleep with his guards on? If yes, then he didn't fall asleep. U cant truly sleep with ur guards on. Thats why I said, it was his attitude, that he was using mantra and just acting like asleep.

Tbh I cant even remember that part. Mind me showing me? I just remember him walking the path as if he was careless, while a native tried to ambush him, unsuccessfully.



Im kind pissed of in real life, so should I by any chance have given an impression of bashing ppl, Im truly sry. Wasn't my intention at all, whahappaz u r a exception tho. That noob part wasn't funny

If you think you might have given an impression of bashing, then you should try to remove it. Please make sure not to let real life stress come out in your posts here..

[Onomatopoeia]

Strength correlates what you can do with your bare hands. Factors like DF/Swords/Items screw that up. Especially if your fighting style is made to beat someone.

We've also seen strength weighed out in literal terms in OP. AKA Doukiri. Nami beat Kalifa using an item that did not directly correlate to strength. But since Nami beat Kalifa who had 630 Dokouri that means Nami has more then 630 Dokouri's. In other words she could beat Arlong in an arm wrestling game(I see Kalifa stronger then Arlong, just a personal feeling).

Let me put it simply. If someone who outlifts me and can do more damage to a wall with his barehands beats the crap out of me and I pull out a gun shoot him which kills him, does that make me stronger? The answer is no. Now replace the word gun with DF. What do you get?

Now do you see using those examples why strength means very little in OP? Their are no such things as powerlevels. Smarts/tactics/knowing weaknesses/swords/items all mean as much as or more then strength. Logia's are the surpreme example of this, a Logia could destroy the strongest man in the universe if he didn't know his/her weaknes.

[BlackHair]

Im now taking everything back what said I about not posting any more regarding WB xD Right before u posted, I edited a bit, just wanted to tell u.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling u consider the title strongest only as brutal strength, am right? We had just a few days ago that kind of conversation. (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33799&page=4)

The title strongest is given the guy who wins and not to the guy with the most brutal strength, that would be another title.

Douriki is only the measure scale of Rokishi user. (I still cant spell them) That doesn't affect the title strongest at all: As u said, there r many factors playing a big role like: experience, brutal strength, agility, weapon, DF etc The man with the best ratings in all of them is called the strongest.

Of course if u have a DF with a immense destruction ability, there is no need for brutal strength. If u have eaten a fruit like light or thunder, there is no need for agility. U get what im talking about? So far many chars and their fighting style were revealed, but Oda kept WB still secret. Why do u think? 'coz to turn him the ultimate strongest as he labelled chapters before, he have to reveal other chars first then to come up with an ultimate skill for WB.



Let me put it simply. If someone who outlifts me and can do more damage to a wall with his barehands beats the crap out of me and I pull out a gun shoot him which kills him, does that make me stronger? The answer is no. Now replace the word gun with DF. What do you get?
I said earlier: a 1vs fair fight on a neutral field with agreement on both sides. 1. If he did know u had a gun and he still wanted to fight u, then yes, it makes u stronger. Coz that is the iron rule of the world to not bitch around, if u lose.
2. If u r a sniper and the other guy a hand to hand combat expert and u guys would fight knowing each others profession, then the outcome would count. No matter what u guys used within ur profession.

Obviously the loser would start bitching around, but that wouldn't count at all -> Iron rule -> Street rules isn't compared to any sport rules.

Now in OP world: They r pirates, they r putting their lives on the line and they will use everything they get to make themselves stronger. Why do u think ppl r eating DF? Obviously to gain superhuman strength, fame, power etc. Idiots like luffy and buggy who ate the fruit by mistake r a special case.

In Skypia many feared Enel, mostly coz of his thunder ability. That is the ability he gained through eating a DF. It was now part of him and his fighting style. R u saying that wouldn't count? If he would beat Odz then he is stronger. Thats what other would think. Cause who posses the better ability stands at the top -> BB - Thats how it works

[Nyueh]

I wasn't talking about mihawk vs wb, it's a pointless match since I doubt he will be in the WB vs SS brawl (but you can't predict ODA so time will say...)


I cant imagine him or some1 else cutting through elements, without seastone or some kind of ability. Its like if u have to cut through thunder( Enel) and many other.
That was precisely my point, and zoro's point, what he said in skypea arc is that he was weak because he couldn't cut trought enel. And that's just the level of swordsmanship that can get you to be on equal terms with the best logia fruits(admirals=SS=yonkou) and it's probably the reason why mihawk is a SS, unless he has a powerful fruit which I don't see why he would be a swordsman then...

That or his sword is made of seastone, given the colour and the title of "strongest sword in the world"...

[Andonan]

Ok that's it I'm ending this stupid completely off topic debate and going to own both of you.....

Therefore the Oxford Dictionary definition of the word 'strong' is.......
powerful forceful, forcible, vigorous, hale, robust, of great staying power, firm, resistant, difficult to overcome, steadfast, excelling, efficient, of great tenacity of will and effective in execution......I COULD GO ON FOR ABOUT A PAGE!

Have a proven my point yet, if not I will keep going, but what I'm trying to convey here is that (OMG SHOCK) YOUR BOTH CORRECT (the audience is a surprised) .... The word strong can be taken in many different aspects (as the definition demonstrates) until Oda makes it clear which definition he is referring to we won't know, so stop bickering and get along children :D

NOW as to make the moderators happy, next chapter I'm sure the battle between the SH's and Ray against Sent PX1 and Kizaru will continue with the main focus being upon Ray, who could quite possibly reveal a lot of revaluations as to how the SH's can become strong enough to overcome logia type DF users........

[BlackHair]

Therefore the Oxford Dictionary definition of the word 'strong' is.......
powerful forceful, forcible, vigorous, hale, robust, of great staying power, firm, resistant, difficult to overcome, steadfast, excelling, efficient, of great tenacity of will and effective in execution......I COULD GO ON FOR ABOUT A PAGE!
I agree with u, well I have to xD.

Lets face it, OP is shounen manga imo for 8+ years old audience. In OP there is everything about fighting, so if some1 say strongest, my first impression is in term of fighting and owning 1vs1 pretty much everyone. I don't think Oda would have wanted such kind of misunderstanding, if he wasn't referring in term of overall fighting. If its just about brutal strength, he could have called him like that, btw I think Giants have more brutal power then WB.





until Oda makes it clear which definition he is referring to we won't know, so stop bickering and get along children :D
Dont wry, we get a long. :D


Next chapter we see Kid and Law and Ray+Kiz talking. The week after, we sew the proof of normals sandals xD

[mundu_king]

no no no no...next chapter will show dragon preparation for a war heheheh
then flashback on the resolution of WB n shanks confrontation
or about buggy,or any other story unrelated to the last chapter
building the anticipation :D

ya, it might be rayleigh took Kizaru by surprise referring to incident of luffy blasting smoker and ace to walls.

However i would root for the haki theory as its more interesting :D
why Luffy really feel the pain when Garp punch him? eventho he's rubber which surprise sanji!!
was it pure strength? was it haki?
was Luffy really afraid of his Gramp result to his power become null?
or just comedic scene ; just punch of love like Garp said?

Its been ages people have been wondering and questioning
why is it ppl with no DF ability such as shanks, mihawk, rayleigh and im guessing whitebeard and gold roger too are so great
Why is these ppl be on the high rank! and feared by marines!
Why is it ppl with great ability being under them? How could these people get on that position?is it by pure strength or sumthin else?

and Why is it when this haki theory surface to explain this, many disagree while several seem to despise the theory...
Does Oda introduce haki (which seems important) only to make people faint?

Im rooting for it because i feel its interesting
especially if being played really well in the story
but its stilla weak theory
and perhaps we'll get our answer for that soon

[neomaster121]

And to put question on your last statement... where exactly did Zoro block Oz's attacks? Sanji might have deflected or he might have just sent it upwards a few feet, it's impossible to tell. But my main question is where did Zoro take Oz's attack and deflect it? I'm to lazy to search for it right now.

well if u remember the time when ZOro holding his new sword and he said it feels kinda heavy
then oz punches Zoro and Zoro just deflects it with raw power without looking at him and launches his attack which is larger than ever then he says i still need to master this blade

i was too lazy to search too ^_^

but yea he deflects a simple powered punch from odz without doing much of anything to deflect it

[Page356]

saying whitebeard is the strongest is retarded. blackbeard will obviously defeat him just based on what shanks and ace have done if anything else to propel the plot. as far as mihawk, he can cut just about anything, this was stated and YES, I AM TOO LAZY (TOO WITH 2 O'S GUYS) TO STATE WHERE I FOUND THIS, but he can cut the elements. blackbeard got the fruit and ate it roughly the same time it was stated that whitebeard was the strongest. anyway, i wonder what would happen if dragon and garp showed up at the same time? ray might get beaten, but it won't be by kizaru. also the axe guys attack reminds me of lucci's ultimate move where he only hits air but it messes up anything in front of what he hits. luffy will prolly just copy his moves or focus more on simple power that results in a 1 hit ko rather than fast moving attacks like the gatling that won't really pierce a strong defense. also zoro's a badass. he may or may not be as powerful as luffy but for god's sake don't compare him to sanji.

[radicalbyte]

We've also seen strength weighed out in literal terms in OP. AKA Doukiri.

I think that was just a nod towards DBZ. Remember Oda was busy with Toriyama making the crossover special at that time.

Don't think it's something which'll be continued. That's what the bounties are for - to give an general idea of the strength that someone is currently measured at. Or how much the WG wants them dead.

[Tomgoood01]

Hey blackhair do you believe in the whole Haki stopped kizaru attack theory. If you don't then check out the post i left on the 511 One Piece Review, and post your thoughts. I think i have the same reasoning as you on One Piece so i think you will agree with me on that post. Anyway thanks

[paradoxe]

TO STATE WHERE I FOUND THIS, but he can cut the elements.

LOL KAY

I am also to lazy to state where i found this, but Kizaru will kill Luffy, eat Zoro's second sword, have sex with Nami and have sex with Usopp's nose. Also, Aokiji is actually claustrophobic, Chopper is secretly a watermelon, Robin doesn't wear underwear and Franky is actually a homosexual. And the reason there are no black people in One Piece is because Oda is actually a racist.

Yeah, don't ask where I read this, because I did, and I'm just too fucking lazy to find it.

This is FACT, because it was somewhere in the manga !! I SWEAR.

Anyway:

World's strongest man means that there isn't another being on OPland who could beat him in a fair 1v1 fight, using whatever techniques or fighting style, at the moment. Of course, many people speculate that Blackbeard would kill WB..but that is in the future. At the very moment, WB is still the strongest man in the world. No one can beat him a fair 1v1 fight, not Shanks, not Mihawk, not Aokiji.

In a match of swordsmanship, perhaps Mihawk can win against WB. But in a fight, using whatever means, then WB will win.

Why are we arguing about DEFINITION?

WB fought equally wtih Gol D Roger, who was known never to lose to anyone. Unless theres anyone who would argue that Roger wasn't actualy the strongest man in the world, then I don't think theres any question that WB is the strongest man right now because Roger is dead, and he was the only one who was able to fight equally with him.


also zoro's a badass. he may or may not be as powerful as luffy but for god's sake don't compare him to sanji.

Lol why?

A zoro fanboy. I love these guys.

Theres a reason why the 3 of them are grouped together in the Monster Trio. Theres also a reason why Luffy always fights an opponent who is miles ahead of the rest in terms of power..whilst Sanji and Zoro fight opponents who are quite close in strength (Kaku and Jyabura for example, difference in douriki was very little).

[Andonan]

Damn it people I settled this debate already, blackhair thank you very much for actually listening to me :D now everyone else stop acting as if your right when you really don't know your not Oda and lets end this discussion about the definition of the word "strongest"

Anyway this thread is pretty much dead anyway, no point making predictions when the spoilers have come out so see you guys in the next thread ahahaha :D

[paradoxe]

Quote: Andonan View Post
until Oda makes it clear which definition he is referring to we won't know, so stop bickering and get along children


The problem is that I think Oda made himself very clear to us.

Please read my post.

If the definition of 'strongest' or 'most powerful' is in dispute, then why don't I see anyone arguing that Mihawk might not be the best swordsman in the world?

=/

Why is everyone so unsure of WB's strength?

Seriously..if he wasn't really this strong, I doubt the WG would've given out a mandatory order to all 7 of the Shichibukai to fight the war against WB.

[Akainu]

has it been brought up yet, that there is a difference between strength as in Herkules and skill as in Zoro (not our Zoro!) ?
because even if WB would wield a sword he wouldn't be the best swordsman as he most likely lacks skill. on the other hand Mihawk still might loose a direct battle because there is no rule that you can only fight a swordsman with swords imo. (except the unwritten shonen law, but that also tells us we will most likely never get to see this fight among the many others that were discussed to death here)

[paradoxe]

You mean Zorro?

Lol.

If WB used a sword against Mihawk , then he would lose.

[BlackHair]

I am also to lazy to state where i found this, but Kizaru will kill Luffy, eat Zoro's second sword, have sex with Nami and have sex with Usopp's nose. Also, Aokiji is actually claustrophobic, Chopper is secretly a watermelon, Robin doesn't wear underwear and Franky is actually a homosexual. And the reason there are no black people in One Piece is because Oda is actually a racist.

Yeah, don't ask where I read this, because I did, and I'm just too fucking lazy to find it.

This is FACT, because it was somewhere in the manga !! I SWEAR.
Yea' yeah I remember that part reading somewhere. lol :D

That pretty much owned everyone who isn't talking with clear facts, thx paradoxe.


has it been brought up yet, that there is a difference between strength as in Herkules and skill as in Zoro (not our Zoro!) ?
because even if WB would wield a sword he wouldn't be the best swordsman as he most likely lacks skill.
I agree, in term of swordsmanship there shouldn't be anyone who could beat Mihawk. But WB was never stated as a swordsman (I know u didn't said that, just referring to other posts). His fighting style is kept secret on purpose. To reveal other chars first and to come up with a ultimate skill for WB, to make him in term of overall fighting in 1vs1 the strongest.




(except the unwritten shonen law, but that also tells us we will most likely never get to see this fight among the many others that were discussed to death here)
Yea' I also think we wont see much of the Shichi vs WB fight, just the outcome. That would us (me) look stupid, since we r discussion that topic as u said to death. Truly funny :D


saying whitebeard is the strongest is retarded. blackbeard will obviously defeat him just based on what shanks and ace have done if anything else to propel the plot.
blackbeard got the fruit and ate it roughly the same time it was stated that whitebeard was the strongest.
I agree BB will prop become the ultimate nemeses of Luffy.

But at this point, WB is stronger then him. WB was introduced as the strongest after BB left his crew, therefore he already ate the fruit. There is a clear time difference and not roughly as u said.

I don't get this, some1 plz explain to me. Why r u guys questioning WB and not Mihawk? Both were called strongest in their profession (overall fighting and swordsmanship). If its just about physical strength, couldn't Oda meant Mihawk, the one who has the most destruction force with a sword? I dont see anyone questioning that, but WB.

If u prefer Mihawk, then its fine. But look at the things with a neutral eye.

Ppl r thinking too much. It is a shounen manga where fighting is a big part of it. If some1 is called strongest, he would win everyone 1vs1 at this point in term overall fighting. It is not said that he will be always the strongest, that is obviously wrong. If its just about brutal strength, Oda would called him like that to avoid misunderstanding among his fans. And I believe, the strongest Giant should have more physical power then WB, just my imagination, not clear fact.

So again, imo WB would win everyone 1vs1. If its 2vs1 or higher, WB may lose. And his fighting style is kept secret with reason.

[Onomatopoeia]

Jyabura said that Doukiri only measured strength(you can look it up it's the place where we found out Lucci/Kaku Doukiri) and that DF's don't correlate into strength. So Doukiri are the literal measurment of power. But as Jyabura said you can be more powerful then another character who has more Doukiri then you if you have a DF.

Also what exactly do you have that proves that WB's tittle wasn't gained by brute strength? From what we've seen he doesn't have a DF or any special skills. Why wouldn't WB's title be gained from Brute Strength?

And our versions of strength is clearly different. If I beat someone using an item then that doesn't correlate into my strength. Using a gun doesn't correlate into strength. So if a DF is put into their then it becomes obvious. Someone who's very strong can still be beaten by someone with a DF. And from what Jyabura told us Oda follows the strength= how much you lift theory and doesn't take into account of DFs.
-------------------------------
I was bored and I looked through the Oz vs SHs chapter and I found that Zoro never blocked Oz's attack. I might be missing something but now I'm sure Zoro never blocked it.

[Imitorar]

Alright, the discussions about the definition of "strength" in One Piece, comparing Sanji and Zoro, and Whitebeard vs. Mihawk have gone on long enough. I let them go for a while because they were discussing a Shichibukai vs. a Yonko, which is related to current events in One Piece, but now the discussions have begun to dominate the thread, and they have started to deal more with abstract comparisons of characters' strength, as opposed to actually discussing the issue of how the impending war is going to play out.

So this is a reminder: stay on topic. The topic consists of discussing chapter 511 and predicting chapter 512. Discussions pertaining to the current point of the story in general (e.g. the war, what will happen to Ace, the role of the Super Novae in the Sabaody Arc, etc.) are also allowed. Side discussions (e.g. the comparative strength of different characters, how Seastone works, the nature of Devil Fruits) may come up, and will be tolerated, at least for a while. However, they should be kept focused on how they pertain to the actual topic, and should be kept as short as possible, so that the thread is not dominated by only tangentially related discussion. This one has gone on far too long, and isn't really related to the topic anymore, so it no longer has any business being discussed in this thread. If you want to discuss it further, do so in the Mega Convo (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32466), or find or create an appropriate thread in the Tree of Knowledge (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=61).

[BlackHair]

Also what exactly do you have that proves that WB's tittle wasn't gained by brute strength? From what we've seen he doesn't have a DF or any special skills. Why wouldn't WB's title be gained from Brute Strength? Lets be fair.
Mihawk is called strongest Swordsman (in the scans he is called invincible, but everyone including me call him strongest, just wanted to say that before u guys start around to play with words). He cut a whole ship into pieces (strength), cut a bullet into 2 pieces (speed, skill) and he is capable of more. That all indicate his title of being the strongest swordsman and not only in term of destruction power.
Whitebeard is called the strongest man. Since there isn't any specification in his title like Mihawks "Swordsman", I get it like strongest man among mankind (= which should include: female, giants, fishmen).

U asked me why he didn't gained his title from just brute strength. Simple, if its just about "brute strength" Zoro would only train his muscles, instead of all that moves. 'Cause there is more needed to beat the strongest swordsman. Remember the fight betweens Mr 1 and Zoro, at first he wasn't able to cut him. But while he fought he enveloped himself and learnt a new technique.

Now Im asking u, why do u treat WB different? He has the same title like Mihawk, without any specification.


From what we've seen he doesn't have a DF or any special skills. What did we see? Nothing! Or r u talking about the clash with Shanks? That doesn't show his ability. We don't know anything about him. I already explained why.

Imo u r playing with words. I don't know why, but seems like u cant stand him. But that shouldn't matter, coz u have to look at things with a neutral eye. If u treat WB as only in term of brute strength then u have to do it with Mihawk same.

IF u call some1 with brute strength as the strongest, while there is a better fighter around. Doesn't it looks weird? imo It wouldn't make any sense. But if u call him "the man with most brute strength" or sth, then things would be completely different. imo U cant call some1 as the strongest if there is a better fighter around. Same with WB, he is called strongest so there shouldn't be any better fighter around.

I'm going to assume that you posted this without having seen my post (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1002483&postcount=293). Therefore, you won't be penalized for this post. However, subsequent posts on the topic of who's stronger then who in One Piece WILL be penalized.

[Imitorar]

Chapter 512 is out! Come and get it HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37862).

After reading this chapter, please come add your take on things to the pool of discussions and predictions in this thread.

[ANBU4U]

Well this one was later than usual, but still well worth it.


I really just don't see a way out of this under the strawhats own steam.........I'm thinking that they may actually be (for the most part) captured, and simply escape to sunny later.

Zorro is god knows where.
Choppers lost it
Franky is out of of Cola
Sanji's out
Ussops out

and Luffy has his hands full.

PX-1 should be able to round up the rest on his own I should think...considering how far PX-4 pushed a fresh crew. Even predicting some miracle plot plot no mi action and PX-1 is permanently taken care of I don't see how the crew beats Sentomaru.


But then again who knows, Perhaps Franky got rid of PX-1 for long enough and Chopper handles Sentomaru, leaving the rest of the crew to take advantage of Ray's efforts and escape.......still I think that's asking a lot of Chopper and Franky...

Oh, and lets not forget that even that sunny scenario relies of Kuma's benevolence...yet again.

[Lohnt]

Kuma may just end up ending this quick. And when I say quick, I mean even taking down Rayleigh quick... or he dissapears as quickly as he appeared.

Aaaaanyway, next chapter should end this confrontation. I honestly can't see Oda dragging out the fight any longer, sure we could see an epic 5 chapter fight between Kizaru and Ray.. but then Ray would have to join the crew, because only SH get that kind of attention ^^

[Serpent]

at this point is hard to predict anything but i got my money on shakky appearing and helping the SHs escape while chopper acts as a distraction

[Pyrus]

I actually think Kuma is here to help the straw hats. The SHs are already clearly overpowered by the marine force even with Rayleigh holding Kizaru; increasing the power of the marine's side doesnt seem very logical. Kuma also didnt punch zoro/fired the lazer/used his bomb attack on Zoro, he simply made him dissapear away from the battle.

[Shiro-kun]

This was an awesome chapter,This is current battle has turned so climatic.

-Rayliegh fights Kizaru and a show of power that is to be seen from Rayliegh vs Kizaru's light powers
-The Straw Hats are being beaten :(
- Chopper transform into his monster form, and all havoc is to be loose
- Kuma appears and makes Zoro Disappears, Hopefully Zoro wasnt transported so far (hopefully to the ship ...). If he was transported far T_T man...

[neomaster121]

just read franky family scanlation
what a great chapter

so much going on so much suffering for the group

i read people saying things like if ZOro's going to jail why don't they just go after him n break him out

but Zoro the second strongest guy their without him the crew of 9 are missing a major power its only would have been worse if luffy was taken out

So i do believe kuma has sent Zoro either somewhere to rest train recover or back on the ship

i think Oda is making this Zoro's arc for development for which i'm pleased

[k-dom]

Well it seems that sentoumarou will be busy with monster chopper after all. I suppose that will be next week topic and I hope an explanation of Kuma appearance and Zoro disappearance

[Imitorar]

What was awesome about this chapter was that it finally stopped people who think that the Straw Hats are now on the same level as the Yonko and the Shichibukai. There are still PLENTY of people who are far out the the Straw Hats' collective league. Luffy managed to beat two Shichibukai, but that was due to strategy and a fair bit of luck, not just strength. Even Luffy doesn't have the strength to just mow down Shichibukai, and it's nice to see that there are characters who can still send the Straw Hats running for their lives (though I don't think they'd be nearly as outmatched if they hadn't just taken out the PX-4).

We still don't know how Rayleigh is stopping Kizaru, but he didn't just use his leg, he used his sword this time. I'm thinking that either A. People have finally got the Seastone sword they wanted in One Piece, but it's not Zoro's. Or B. It WAS mirrors, and Rayleigh's sword is just more reflective then Brook's. Oda did call attention to Brook's sword and how it couldn't pierce Kizaru, so that might be to contrast Brook's sword with Rayleigh's sword later, but I could very well be reading too much into that to suit my own theory.

I'm surprised I'm not more annoyed that Chopper went to Monster Point on purpose. I was extremely against that idea back during Thriller Bark. I guess I'm okay with it because Oda saved it for an extremely desparate situation (an Admiral, a Paxifista, Zoro at death's door, Sanji, Usopp, and Brook taken out, Luffy taken out by a guy he can't even hit, etc.), so it just added to the feeling of rushed desparation. Typical, Oda making me like moves I didn't like the idea of. He did it with Cross Gear too. They're gonna need water or Seastone though. Hm, maybe if Rayleigh has Seastone, they could use that...

The real Kuma showing is a bit of a surprise, but only because you'd think that if a Shichibukai was gonna be bothered to come all the way to the Sabaody Islands to keep Zoro alive, it'd be Mihawk. Then again, Mihawk can't teleport. I'm assuming that Kuma came to the Sabaody Islands to help Zoro, since he seems to also have an interest in keeping Zoro alive. Perhaps he relates to Zoro's loyalty to his captain, loyalty being a concept that the "Lapdog" Kuma can relate to. That's probably his real reason, but I'm willing to bet he came either under the guise of helping the Marines, or on his own. I doubt both, because I don't think the World Government would send him (which is why I thought the Paxifista were androids/cyborgs in the first place) and I doubt Kuma would wanna flout the will of his superiors over Zoro again so soon after the last time (it's only been about a week). I'm leaning towards the second, though. And I'm looking forward to finally figuring out how Kuma's "Where would you most like to go?" trick works, hopefully next week, as well as possibly what Sentomaru is doing, and how the Straw Hats manage to escape.

[GraveOne]

I really dont think Kuma would kill someone of the SH... Im thinking a small alliance from kuma and the SH.... he is a CB afteralll... hi IQ.... he should understand that Luffy is a tough fighter and one way or an other he would become pirate king.....
Loved the chapter... did Ray finish what he was doing to the Sunny?

[Onomatopoeia]

Luffy knowing and admitting he can't beat someone and taking charge? I love this Luffy, it's a serious side that we almost never see it's great!

Anyways it seems that they're might be something special about this sword and that Kizaru and Ray are more or less equal.

Oda did a great job of making all the SHs serious and showing how much they cared about Zoro. But right now I don't see any escaping for the SHs. More then Half of the crew is out and almost the entire High/Middle/Low tier is out of the picture PX-1 could easily take them all out. Berserk Chopper is a doubledged sword too.

[wing_gundam]

Great chapter! Everyone at their best!

Shakky could definitely be a possibility and we might still see Law + Kidd..its not over yet kiddies :D

and there's always the Rosey riders, maybe a Garp type intervention? Dragon haha okay now were going real high level...

[Belisar]

i think zoro was teleported home. there he would remember the past and his master would tell him something over the way of the sword. maybe it will helps him to cut things harder than steel (kuma?).

kuma will teleport him back after a while.

[Moroboshi]

This is the first time that I saw the Mugiwara in so extremely bad situation.
We don't know yet how Ray can hit Kizaru. I don't think is mirrors because I don't see Ray wear mirror sandals; and IMO it can't be seastone because in that case Kizaru power should stop, instead we saw him use his light sword to fight Ray. it should be a DF ability or haki (I hope haki, but I'm afraid will be DF power). Yes, this is the confirmation the the SH need a big power up before they go to the NW. About Zoro: imo he isn't in Impel Down or another prison, the SH don't have the power now to free Zoro or someone else (ACE) from ID! They can't fight all the big shots of the marine. I don't know where Zoro is, but I think he is somewhere save.

[weixiaobao]

well, couple of quick comments:
- Rayleigh injured a logia user, is it because his weapon has seastone power or is it because some other abilities.
- The real Kuma arrived
- Luffy is a great captain because he not too prideful to not retreat.
- how strong is the monster chopper compare to everyone else? but one thing is for sure his bounty gonna increase greatly after this.
- Predicting that Zoro is captured and put in impel down, therefore giving luffy a reason to joined up with others captured nova, crocodile and his gang, plus Ace

[llmcduff]

Kuma must be helping Zoro out. He seems to be the "moral justice" type of guy, like Smoker, maybe even further than Smoker. I think he admires how Zoro was willing to sacrifice himself for Luffy thus he will help Zoro. Maybe he will even push out Zoro's injuries. As to where Zoro disappeared to, I'm thinking maybe a "Kuma dimension" - somewhere not in this world. Kuma can materialize anywhere at will, it seems, thus this is not beyond the realm of possibility. Besides, this concept is not new with the manga - there was that door-door guy. However, even with Zoro at full strength, he won't be able to help much, unless Kuma actually intervenes and fight the Marines, which I don't think will happen.

I don't see how they can escape except by getting help from outside. I'm thinking someone like Shank, grandpa, Dragon, or Lola's mom (and she has to be powerful). Shakky may be a possibility but somehow I don't think go. Just a gut feeling.

[BlackHair]

Incredible.. Oda far exceeded my imaginations.

Kiz is busy, I dont see him as threat for SHs right now. Since the SHs have to survive, I cant see Kuma as an enemy. I do believe he came to support the SHs, so wherever Zoro is right now, he isn't in danger. About Sento, I think Chopper will keep him busy, but eventually lose. PX is stopped by Kuma.. he is more or less offline, unless Sento or Kiz gives him order. Well, I just cant predict how the SHs gonna escape this situation. Odds r rly against them.. I cant w8 to see how Oda will manage this.

Im surpised by the comments of Brook and Ussope, seems like Ray must have used sth while he kicked his knee a chapter earlier. So I guess the surprise kick theory cant be true, which I supported. I begining to think it may have been rly haki xD About his sword, well it could be seastone or simply some reflecting material. But I do think seastone, since he manage to cut him. Dont think he could do that with a mirror.

And I also believe like some1 said above, that the next arc could focus around Zoro. If not arc, then a few chapter.

[Onomatopoeia]

Wait so you think a Yonkou(why exactly do people act as if Lola's mom is defintely a Yonkou don't you think Lola would have mentioned this???) could get by the Marines and get to the SHs but not someone on the same island... yeah.

As for the dimension thing Kuma has never shown that sort of ability, his ability can move air not move dimensions. It's possible he sent him to VP though. But man Luffy's reaction is going to be Epic! Berserk Monster Luffy!!!

[Marvstar]

I think that we might not see Zoro for a while in OP now that he has disappeared, maybe there will be a situation where a SH member is almost wiped out and when the enemy is about to deliver the final blow, Zoro will return to block it...

The vanishing of Zoro leaves room for a lot of different plot development paths, the SH's might be faced with a moral issue of whether to continue their journey without him, Zoro is one of the main fighting forces for the crew, so this will mean the weaker members will have to experience some kind of development to make them stronger...

Of course I could be wrong and we will see Zoro somewhere in the next chapter :notrust

Edit: Sorry wrong topic T_T..

Moved to the right thread.

[Marvstar]

I think that we might not see Zoro for a while in OP now that he has disappeared, maybe there will be a situation where a SH member is almost wiped out and when the enemy is about to deliver the final blow, Zoro will return to block it...

The vanishing of Zoro leaves room for a lot of different plot development paths, the SH's might be faced with a moral issue of whether to continue their journey without him, Zoro is one of the main fighting forces for the crew, so this will mean the weaker members will have to experience some kind of development to make them stronger...

Of course I could be wrong and we will see Zoro somewhere in the next chapter :notrust

[Moroboshi]

The vanishing of Zoro leaves room for a lot of different plot development paths, the SH's might be faced with a moral issue of whether to continue their journey without him, Zoro is one of the main fighting forces for the crew, so this will mean the weaker members will have to experience some kind of development to make them stronger...

Of course I could be wrong and we will see Zoro somewhere in the next chapter :notrust

No, the SH couldn't never leave a nakama behind!!! Even Sanji, who "fight" always with Zoro, in these chapters is worried about the swordman. Luffy and the others will do anything possible, maybe even the impossible to try and find him.

[Marvstar]

No, the SH couldn't never leave a nakama behind!!! Even Sanji, who "fight" always with Zoro, in these chapters is worried about the swordman. Luffy and the others will do anything possible, maybe even the impossible to try and find him.

Hm, I guess that is true, but what really gets me is what Kuma said before he made Zoro vanish; "Where would you like to go?". If he didn't say that, the SH's could assume that Kuma simply disposed of Zoro, but that is not the case. Oda probably made Kuma say those words to allow the audience and the SH's to know that Zoro is still alive! I know that Luffy would not leave a nakama behind, but depending on how long Oda plans on having Zoro disappear for, it might be a situation such as "We'll continue on, and you will meet us later, because we trust in your strength"

But say they were to search for Zoro, what leads would they have? We could meet some of the other people that Kuma once made disappear like Perona...

Right now it could go either way, what I love about this current situation is that we really don't know what's going to happen next, or how the plot will unfold!

If Kuma teleported Zoro to the place he wanted to be most.. Where would that be? To be stronger? His home town? Hmm..

[Tomgoood01]

This is just a quick post from me I'll do a summary later when people ask some more questions and get some theories and info out there.

Some of the questions we have to ask ourselves to get some brainstorming done are....

Question 1. How is Rayleigh Block Kizaru attacks and deal out damage as well? because he did CUT Kizaru's face.

Question 2. How did Rayleigh keep of with Kizaru's speed? I would assume that Kizaru is traveling at the speed of light. As well it seemed Rayleigh was already there before Kizaru could fully rematerialized into human form. Also Kizaru had a head start being he chose to go there first. such speed is beyond just training.

Question 3. What will be the out come of tis fight? Will this be an all out fight, or will they eventually find a way of escape?

Question 4. What is the condition of Sanji and Brooke? They did take a up close shots of the Pacifista's Lazar. So far they have not got up yet.

Question 5. What purpose is the real Kuma here for? Did he come here on his own free will?

Question 6. When Kuma uses that teleportation ability on people can he give the person he teleportates to the location just by letting them think of a place.

Question 7. Where do you think Zoro went to?

Let's see what kind of answers you guys can come up with.

[BlackHair]

I cant imagine Zoro out of the manga for several chapter.

I just checked and it seems like Kuma did say the same thing to Perona back on TB (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/473/14/). So its not wrong to conclued that we may see that annoying girld again. Who knows.. maybe she will join the crew xD



Question 2. How did Rayleigh keep of with Kizaru's speed? I would assume that Kizaru is traveling at the speed of light. As well it seemed Rayleigh was already there before Kizaru could fully rematerialized into human form. Also Kizaru had a head start being he chose to go there first. such speed is beyond just training.
As far as I can tell, Kiz was just about to move while Ray stopped him with force. So they didn't changed place.

[Moroboshi]

I cant imagine Zoro out of the manga for several chapter.

I just checked and it seems like Kuma did say the same thing to Perona back on TB (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/473/14/). So its not wrong to conclued that we may see that annoying girld again. Who knows.. maybe she will join the crew xD

Yes, and then she'll fall in love with Captain Usopp-sama!!!:p:D

[GeckoMoria]

awesome chapter :) wonder how rayleigh is taking on kizaru? :) lol well anyway heres my prediction:
so kuma will not stop with just zoro and begin teleporting the rest of the SH crew until they all gone. kizaru/sentomaru will ask y and kuma will say that he is scattering them around dangerous parts of the grandline and they will definitely die from this but its really a lie. then zoro will wake up back at rayleighs and see everyone there when he asks wat happened rayleigh(who will escape kizaru in all the commotion) will explain that he once saved kuma from certain death and since then kuma has been in debt to rayleigh. So rayleigh having seen kizaru on the island prior to the battle went and asked kuma to save the SHs as a means of finally settling the debt. Thus kizaru and sentomaru will believe the SHs dead and stop chasing them so rayleigh can train them and coat the ship during the 3 days they will be there maybe longer cuz the training idea.
btw i think it could also work if u replace rayleigh with garp considering how garp should have shown by now lol any comments? btw i apologize for my behavior b4 back in the other thread

[Tomgoood01]

oh ya sorry about that, did not look close enough. He was able with that sword to Cut the streaming light particles that kizaru travels by.

New question Number 2. How is Rayleigh sword able to cut light?

[Brutalkiller87]

Great chapter, hope that monster chopper can at least do some damage to Sentomaru.

[Ishido]

well, couple of quick comments:
- Rayleigh injured a logia user, is it because his weapon has seastone power or is it because some other abilities.
- The real Kuma arrived
- Luffy is a great captain because he not too prideful to not retreat.
- how strong is the monster chopper compare to everyone else? but one thing is for sure his bounty gonna increase greatly after this.
- Predicting that Zoro is captured and put in impel down, therefore giving luffy a reason to joined up with others captured nova, crocodile and his gang, plus Ace

About Monster chopper, i don't think we should underestimate his strength, after all that's the DF power going rampage (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/407/12-13/). Although kumadori can't compare to a pacifista or to sentomaru, still it's remarkable that monster chopper treated kumadori as if he were nothing but a fly (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/408/12/), back there in the CP9 arc.

[LoS]

TQuestion 1. How is Rayleigh Block Kizaru attacks and deal out damage as well? because he did CUT Kizaru's face.

Question 2. How did Rayleigh keep of with Kizaru's speed? I would assume that Kizaru is traveling at the speed of light. As well it seemed Rayleigh was already there before Kizaru could fully rematerialized into human form. Also Kizaru had a head start being he chose to go there first. such speed is beyond just training.

Question 3. What will be the out come of tis fight? Will this be an all out fight, or will they eventually find a way of escape?

Question 4. What is the condition of Sanji and Brooke? They did take a up close shots of the Pacifista's Lazar. So far they have not got up yet.

Question 5. What purpose is the real Kuma here for? Did he come here on his own free will?

Question 6. When Kuma uses that teleportation ability on people can he give the person he teleportates to the location just by letting them think of a place.

Question 7. Where do you think Zoro went to?

Let's see what kind of answers you guys can come up with.

Okay I will bite.

Well to start out, most of your questions are RAFO based, we need to Read and Find Out in future chapters.

#1: No one knows at this point, the most popular theories are seastone sword, mirrors, or he has a copy copy fruit, something that allows him to replicate abilities of other DF users he is fighting against.

#2: No clue, it would have to be Soru X100, but at this point I don't think anyone has a clue.

#3: I can't see it being an all out fight, so far the SH's do not have enough power on their side. The opposition has such a huge advantage in strength, but the SH's have time on their side. Soon Kizaru will have to leave the Archipelago and prepare to fight WB and his pirates.

#4: Urogue was able to get up after being shot by a laser so why not them as well? After all we have seen the SH beaten to a pulp by Oz an get up and continue the fight.

#5: He is here to save Zoro from what was imminent death. He is there to help the SH's in his own odd way. It is not obvious at face value, but it helps out the crew somewhat. I have no clue why he is there though.

#6: We have no clue, my opinion is that it is his own cruel joke. He does not care how the person answers, or even if they answer. He just sends them where he wants to.

#7: My first choice was back to the Sunny, because there would not need to be a cliche "rescue our nakama" arc. But if he is at the Sunny he will need to stay hidden for awhile or else Kuma would get into some serious trouble if people find out he did not send Zoro somewhere bad to his health.

[Onomatopoeia]

About question 4 I feel we won't see much more of Sanji or Brooke simply because they got pretty beat down in the first place. Honestly the most I can see them doing for a while is running away. Sanji even said that if he tried to use his attacks his leg will break. And Brooke still hasn't gotten up even though it's been a full chapter.

[LoS]

About question 4 I feel we won't see much more of Sanji or Brooke simply because they got pretty beat down in the first place. Honestly the most I can see them doing for a while is running away. Sanji even said that if he tried to use his attacks his leg will break. And Brooke still hasn't gotten up even though it's been a full chapter.

Oh I also don't think they have much left in the tank, I think they are done. I was just pointing out that the other option has been done before plenty of times, so you can never rule it out how improbable it is.

I think there are 2 options here, the first is that we get to see an insane Luffy fighting balls out and just going ballistic. But the problem with that one is that their odds of surviving/not getting captured would still be horrible, despite how awesome it would be seeing Luffy in that state.

I think another option is much more likely, despite how crazy it sounds. There must be some godsend in the form of some crazy circumstance/event happening that causes all fighters to agree to end their scuffle, that or one other uber strong fighter comes to help the SH side, most likely Dragon.

[Fox666]

Is it just impression, or PX-1 chin is much more triangular?

[Tomgoood01]

I was looking at the into picture of the CP9 side story and i tried to spot all the members out. I located all but Kalifa,

Question Number 8.
Dose anybody notice where she is? she is wearing a black top and skirt with black boots. Maybe there is a reason behind why she is not there?

[bopnoh10]

I have a couple of questions that I believe will facilitate some good discussion.

1. How do you stop/contain/control/destroy light?

2. How about lasers?

3. Given that there is a positive answer to question 1, how can rubber do it?

Here's some of my thoughts, which I hope people will add to... Light = form of energy. You can't destroy energy (fundamental law in physics), however you can manipulate it. Firstly, metal reflects light. Secondly, certain objects can curve, scatter, and diverge light (any body of mass including water and prisms). I think that although a sword may not harm Kizuru, it may defend against him. Obviously, a devil fruit ability like Blackbeards would (IMO) destroy Kizuru (light can't escape black hole's gravitational pull).

I think that the easiest way to combat a devil fruit user (regardless of who it is), is by having a sword composed with sea stone, although I don't think that will happen considering it would hurt Luffy as well.

My prediction is that either someone else fights/occupies Kizuru or that Luffy finds a way to take the light (energy) that Kizuru emits and converts it into another form. Remember that rubber is a polymer that can be heated and also light does have an effect on the molecular level (sorry if I'm getting scientific, but Luffy's Gear 2nd kind of was). Maybe Luffy uses water or something else to hamper Kizuru (remember water on crocodile and water can curve light).
Ultimately, Luffy will have to develop a new technique/gear to combat Kizuru. Although I believe that Zoro will end up fighting and defeating Kuma and the rest of the straw hats maturing into better fighters capable of defeating the pacifista. I also can picture a (very soon) meeting with another top character (maybe Dragon or Garp), but most likely (IMO) Vegapunk, who I think will be the next addition (or one of his promising/upcoming students) to the Straw hats.

[Mr.Popo]

This was a great surprise chapter. I wondered how Oda would solve the situation he build-up last chapter.

Kizaru vs. Rayleigh
It's interessting to see that neither Rayleigh nor Kizaru wants to fight each other. Both would rather like to avoid it.
When the SHs are captured or escaped i could see both of them say goodbye too each other and part ways.

Luffys Development
Luffys rating of the situation and his reaction to it was great!
It shows that he is able to estimate the power of the enemy and to reason that the enemy is too strong to fight.
A good development after their meeting with Aokiji where he recklessy wanted to fight the admiral.

The Real Kuma
What a big surprise, the real Kuma arrived! And he carries his trademark bible.
This is the most interessting part of this chapter (it is rather unimportant how Rayleigh can fight Kizaru in comparison).

1) Why is he there???
There should be no military nor private need to show up at the scene. The marine side is already powerful enough and he has nothing to do with the SHs other than his small agreement with Zorro.


kuma has been in debt to rayleigh
Here i like GeckoMorias theory about Kuma being in Rayleighs dept. It makes perfectly sense that he is there because Rayleigh ask him to. He is a man of honor after all.
I don't think he is there to specifically rescue Zorro (see my point about Zorro).

2) Why is he able to command a pacifiscta??
He is the most obedient of all Shichibukai, but none the less a pirate. And although he is the prototype, i don't see a reason why the marine should allow him to command the pacifista, except for special missions.

3) How is his freaking DF working!?!?
I don't know of any animal with paws that can do the slightes bit of what Kuma can do: "teleport", air pressure bomb, shock wave, repelling drain and fatigue from ones body. If he had a air air fruit most of it could be explained, but he has the paw paw fruit.

Zorro
One thing i like is that Kuma indeed believed that Zorro died back on Thriller Bark because of the damage he inflicted on him.
So he was't holding back, but their agreement should still be fulfilled.

Also nice to see, that Zorro instantly recognized Kuma as the real one and stood up to face him once again.

I can't think of a place where Zorro is right now, because don't know how Kumas DF works. But i do belief we won't see him any time soon! This was well prepared by Oda since Thriller Bark.

Current Status
Zorro - vanished
Sanji - out of order, but conscious
Brooks - out of order, but conscious
Ussop - hardly active

Franky - on the run (out of cola)
Nami - on the run

Robin - on the run (rescuing Luffy)
Luffy - out of order, but conscious (carried away by Robin)
Chopper - fighting, but UNconscious

Rayleigh - fighting


So the SHs have still a long way to go, if they survive this, that is.

[mr.danly]

I have a couple of questions that I believe will facilitate some good discussion.

1. How do you stop/contain/control/destroy light?

2. How about lasers?

3. Given that there is a positive answer to question 1, how can rubber do it?

Here's some of my thoughts, which I hope people will add to... Light = form of energy. You can't destroy energy (fundamental law in physics), however you can manipulate it. Firstly, metal reflects light. Secondly, certain objects can curve, scatter, and diverge light (any body of mass including water and prisms). I think that although a sword may not harm Kizuru, it may defend against him. Obviously, a devil fruit ability like Blackbeards would (IMO) destroy Kizuru (light can't escape black hole's gravitational pull).

I think that the easiest way to combat a devil fruit user (regardless of who it is), is by having a sword composed with sea stone, although I don't think that will happen considering it would hurt Luffy as well.

My prediction is that either someone else fights/occupies Kizuru or that Luffy finds a way to take the light (energy) that Kizuru emits and converts it into another form. Remember that rubber is a polymer that can be heated and also light does have an effect on the molecular level (sorry if I'm getting scientific, but Luffy's Gear 2nd kind of was). Maybe Luffy uses water or something else to hamper Kizuru (remember water on crocodile and water can curve light).
Ultimately, Luffy will have to develop a new technique/gear to combat Kizuru. Although I believe that Zoro will end up fighting and defeating Kuma and the rest of the straw hats maturing into better fighters capable of defeating the pacifista. I also can picture a (very soon) meeting with another top character (maybe Dragon or Garp), but most likely (IMO) Vegapunk, who I think will be the next addition (or one of his promising/upcoming students) to the Straw hats.

I don't really see vegapunk joining the SH crew... why should he? As the WG's top scientist, he is most likely extremely well respected, powerful (Tenryuutibo powerful, not Kizaru powerful, though he could also be a very strong fighter), very well paid, and apparently he agrees with the WG's ideals on at least a basic level to be making all these weapons to aid them. I do agree with Garp coming soon. I don't understand why no one seems to agree with my theory that Garp will stop the fight: didn't he head over to the archipelago to try and stop the marines from accidentally fighting Rayleigh?

[Tomgoood01]

I can now answer my question Number 4. Both Brooke and Sanji on the last page were starting to get up, you can see if you look closely.

[drsopa]

there is a hint on page 14 of this chapter i think, chopper says that (sentoumaro)"how come his attacks work like that on luffy even trought hes made of rubber", giving the direction thats there is a "spirit / aura" technique that blocks the power of any DF user, this explains too how come that rayleigh is fighting with kizaru with no problems because he can block his logia power with his aura maybe?. A few of the one piece last chapters give us hints about the strong "aura/spirit" that normal ppl can develop too. just my 5 cents on this....

[EPG Vengeance]

. I do agree with Garp coming soon. I don't understand why no one seems to agree with my theory that Garp will stop the fight: didn't he head over to the archipelago to try and stop the marines from accidentally fighting Rayleigh?

YOOO...lol sorry..I do agree with you on the Garp thing..And there really is no reason for Kuma to be there i doubt he was ordered to go there..because big boss marine guy sent kizaru there with the px's and garp found out about it to and said something about heading there..there was nothing about any shichi guys being there..plus it is kinda over kill with admiral, px's, and sumo boy lol sorry...Does anyone see a pattern going here...Gold "D" Roger ( PK\Captain)..Silver Rayileah ( First mate\ Deepest Connection with the captain\ Sword user to ^_^)....Monkey "D" Luffy ( Wants to be PK\Captain)....Zorro ( First Mate\ IMO Possible deepest connection with luffy..i can give few reasons why if asked to do so..Great Swordsmen)...i duno maybe a pattern

[Tomgoood01]

there is a hint on page 14 of this chapter i think, chopper says that (sentoumaro)"how come his attacks work like that on luffy even trought hes made of rubber", giving the direction thats there is a "spirit / aura" technique that blocks the power of any DF user, this explains too how come that rayleigh is fighting with kizaru with no problems because he can block his logia power with his aura maybe?. A few of the one piece last chapters give us hints about the strong "aura/spirit" that normal ppl can develop too. just my 5 cents on this....

I think why Chopper is really saying this because he surprised to see physical attacks hurt Luffy. Being that he has not really seen Luffy take on a strong opponent before with his own eyes. As well Choppy i think is quite young and ignorant always being impressed by things such as lasers with Luffy and is hard to see through people such as Dr. Hogback. So i would not take Chopper's thoughts to serious.

But i do believe is something that is special with Sentoumaru attacks maybe cause they look cool or sound something. But on the other hand it's kind of hard to say that it's special as well being that Luffy is exhausted at the moment and has not used his gears on him so i can't judge Sentoumaru's ability because he's fighting a weak Luffy. If Luffy was healthy how would the fight really turn out? hard to say.

Also with the Aura thing or Haki affecting DF powers i have already disproved that theory. If you want to check it out it's on reviews by Neo's One Piece Review 511 at the bottom of the page. Anyway it was a nice idea

[Devil-buster]

I believe zoro was taken to impel down......this will give luffy a chance to go to impel down and indirectly aide in the freedom of ace......also I dont believe kuma will just let zoro off somewhere, nor do I think kuma is saving him......I think kuma came back just cause he heard zoro was alive, may be he wants to make sure that business is done tight this tiime (without killing him, may be kuma has some new found respect for zoro, but still see him as a threat to WG and acts accordingly)....

I also dont see the SH's getting captured.....if they do they will loose sunny go and hence franky.....I dont see this happening.....may be there will be like a giant uprising, all the SN,s gather together to fight sento, and paci...with kizaru already occupied...

I also think that the move sento is using is similar to lucci's rokugun(?).....but instead of using it in a focused form like lucci (who is an assasin, hence kill with precision), sento uses it on a wide scale, thereby creating a great defence, impacting everything in a wide radius.....that also explaing why it is hurting luffy so much....it is essentially like an impact dial with wide range...

[Andonan]

I honestly have NO CLUE where Zoro is gone, ID makes sense, but Oda has never been one to repeat himself, this entire manga is great due to its unpredictability, plenty of alluding but no direct spoilers..... And if Zoro is taken to ID that would be a repeat of the EL arc saving Robin.............

[ZeroChrome]

hmm... I actually had in mind that Kuma is not really helping SHs, but rather eliminate the "reason" he can't touch SHs. or more precise, Luffy. and the reason being Zoro since he made that promise with him back in TB. but the more I think about it that way, the more I feel it is very unlikely since Kuma did respect Zoro for his loyalty to his Captain. but nonetheless, I just want to provide another reason for Zoro to be teleported away :p

the arc is getting very intense with SHs in their desperation and I agree I can't see how they're going to escape from this mess. we still have is Garp which is on his way there, but that's not really an option imo since I think this time Garp won't let Luffy get away again.

forgot to mention, awesome chapter as always. never let me down even a bit :thumbs

[Ohara]

I predict that caimie and shakky will help them to escape.

[paradoxe]

Most probably there isn't going to be an Impel Down arc ok?

Just because you want something to happen...doesnt mean it will.

Btw, I noticed something on page 18. So there are 47 Pacifistas all together...quite an army eh?

[Onomatopoeia]

Wait where does it say their are 47 PK's all together??

Their is also little reason to suspect that Garp will save them, I mean why would he?

[Ohara]

there is a hint on page 14 of this chapter i think, chopper says that (sentoumaro)"how come his attacks work like that on luffy even trought hes made of rubber", giving the direction thats there is a "spirit / aura" technique that blocks the power of any DF user, this explains too how come that rayleigh is fighting with kizaru with no problems because he can block his logia power with his aura maybe?. A few of the one piece last chapters give us hints about the strong "aura/spirit" that normal ppl can develop too. just my 5 cents on this....

I agree with you ^^


Most probably there isn't going to be an Impel Down arc ok?

Just because you want something to happen...doesnt mean it will.

Btw, I noticed something on page 18. So there are 47 Pacifistas all together...quite an army eh?

Where did you see that there is 47 Pacifistas?

[BlackHair]

In ID r the worst and one of the strongest criminals. It was said, I believe a one-way ticket. That was also the deadline to Robins rescue back then on cp9 arc. I doubt the SHs have enough strength to accomplish that, especially since Zoro isn't with them. And it would be too much like Enis Lobby. Its Oda and not Kubos bleach (hueco mundo arc=soul soceity arc). So imo Zoro is no way in ID.

Since Kuma has sth to do with air, how about he changed the air around zoro to make him invisible or another dimension.. sth like that. I mean he could be still there, but not for our eyes. I somehow dont like the teleport idea, it makes him to powerful.

As for Garp, I think he was held back by Sengoku after the Luffy+Tenyro affair. He prop wont join the fight right now. I could imagine him joining ss island later but not now helping the SHs. Thats why I believe Kuma is there to help them.

[Tomgoood01]

Uh? i looked and found nothing in particular that has to do with the number 47 can you be a little more specific to how you came up with conclusion or are you just making things up here?

About where Zoro has been transported is quite simple really. In total there are 4 possibilities. I will give percentages as well of the probability as well.

1. He was taken back to Sunny. 50%

2. Somewhere on Shabondy Archipelago Groves. (more likely on grove 8 at the bar where Camie, Shakky and hachi are) 25%

3. A place that Kuma decided. 20%

4. lastly a completely Random place 5%

[d3death]

Most probably there isn't going to be an Impel Down arc ok?

Just because you want something to happen...doesnt mean it will.

Btw, I noticed something on page 18. So there are 47 Pacifistas all together...quite an army eh?


how did you came up with conclusion? I dont see any thing pointing that there are 47 of them.




Uh? i looked and found nothing in particular that has to do with the number 47 can you be a little more specific to how you came up with conclusion or are you just making things up here?

About where Zoro has been transported is quite simple really. In total there are 4 possibilities. I will give percentages as well of the probability as well.

1. He was taken back to Sunny. 50%

2. Somewhere on Shabondy Archipelago Groves. (more likely on grove 8 at the bar where Camie, Shakky and hachi are) 25%

3. A place that Kuma decided. 20%

4. lastly a completely Random place 5%


you missed out ID, or did you included ID in your 3rd point?

[Devil-buster]

Most probably there isn't going to be an Impel Down arc ok?

Just because you want something to happen...doesnt mean it will.

Btw, I noticed something on page 18. So there are 47 Pacifistas all together...quite an army eh?

Oh...I didnt know u had it in with oda.....

Impel down incident is inevitable....thats where WB vs Schibukai is gonna take place.....And this is not naruto where almost the entire manga is focused on people other than the main protagonist.....the most one piece has gone without featuring the strawhats in it is about 2-3 chapters......so unless the SH's are not involved in the Impel down incident somehow, I dont think oda will dedicate more than 2-3 chapters to it.....But since it is perhaps the most important incident in the manga so far....and since it has been in the making for more than a 100 chapters..oda will have to dedicate atleast a mini arc to it.....

also it doesnt say any where that there are 47 pacifistas.....

[OP ROX]

Well its safe to assume Kuma isnt there to hurt Zoro since we saved Zoro from being blasted from the Pacifista

[BlackHair]

para is probably bored and talking crap, I know how it fells :P

I believe, if u once set foot on ID u cant come back, even if the marines wanted to they cant do that. Prop a natural one way island or sth. I dont have proof for that, but I get somehow the feeling remembering the flash back with tom how the croco granny reacted as it was clear he will get brought to ID and of course how nami (i believe it was her) explained ID before the enis lobby fight. I will check later the manga.

And i believe we wont see much of WB vs Shich fight.. prop just the beginning with all the fighters then later we will hear the outcome. Also, i cant remember reading that the fight will take place on ID.

[dmnt3d]

AWESOME CHapter as always!!

Prediction:
- Zoro is teleported in ID.
- Kuma teleports back to WB incident.
- Dragon Appears to help SH (while Luffy is knocked out. he won't be able to see his dad)
- Kizaru predicting the odds of winning against Rayleigh and Dragon- just retreats saying capturing Zoro, the 120M Bounty pirate, is enough to favor for the Tenryubuto's blessings
- SH pirates , with the loss of Zoro, are all sad.

[Grimreaper84]

I like this chapter! it dispels all doubts about Ray not being able to match kizaro, in fact, he's getting the upper hand! thats what i expected. Man, those guys are really strong! Sentoumaru might have a seastone hidden somewhere in his body.
[hr]
And also, its seems like the tables have turned. The weaker characters are the ones taking care of the strong, what a great way to be thankful!

[k-dom]

I wonder why so much people think Kuma will help the SH. He owe them nothing. Just because he admit they are good (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-485/page017.html) and respectfull is not sufficient

btw I'm quite happy to see that chopper did not ate the rumble balls in the case everybody says he was obviously eating a rumble ball. Even if I must admit he ate 3 rumble balls to become monster chopper

[mags]

What a wonderful chapter, this arc has really turned out to be riviting.

As far as predictions go, the big one is where did Kuma send Zoro? I don't think he sent Zoro to a marine compound. Sentomaru and the Pacifista had him beaten, yet Kuma interferred and sent him elsewhere. I think Kuma is finally acting on his own agenda because of a few reasons: respect or loyalty to Dragon? I'm betting on his respect for the Mugiwara pirates, as he was once a great pirate himself. That is what him and Mihawk seem to have in common, they enjoy watching the Mugiwaras. Perhaps old pirates watching the new generation?

[gold349]

I wonder why so much people think Kuma will help the SH. He owe them nothing. Just because he admit they are good (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-485/page017.html) and respectfull is not sufficient

btw I'm quite happy to see that chopper did not ate the rumble balls in the case everybody says he was obviously eating a rumble ball. Even if I must admit he ate 3 rumble balls to become monster chopper


granted, kuma is shishibukai, he doesn't owe anything to the SH's but the way he has approached them, made a deal with them (Zoro at least), didn't follow direct orders (to annihilate all on TB), left them all alive, helped Luffy with his fatigue and damage, complimented on the SH's crew and said it as if he knows Dragon somehow, its all theory/views/opinions that he may be good and may help the SH's its not a given but things point to Kuma being good (IMO).

[BlackHair]

I wonder why so much people think Kuma will help the SH. He owe them nothing. Just because he admit they are good (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-485/page017.html) and respectfull is not sufficient
I think Kuma is there to help. Coz if he was there to fight the SHs then its definitely their end. I cant see any of the SHs dying and I also dont expect some1 coming, Garp should have already, if he isn't there by now he wont prop wont come helping them now. . That's why ..

I see some ppl expecting Dragon, but I highly doubt he is here on this island. Dad or not, that man is in the first line the leader of the revolution army. I mean, his own son doesn't know the face of his father. Im not saying he don't like him or he wouldn't help him. Just thinking its unlikely for some1 in his position to be there on the island, while some major things gonna happen in the world. And he could take this as a opportunity to strike the WG as well or sth similar.

I just remembered, didn't have Zoro one of those vivi card or w.e.? I think they will soon meet up with him, if he was rly teleported.

[Page356]

I think Kuma is probably a good guy. Imagine this, he's known as the most brutal tyrant on the seas. The World Government promises him power in exchange for the life of his crew to become androids. As he starts to lose his humanity he clenches on to it and seeks a way to find redemption. He carries around a Bible and seems to have ulterior motives for doing things, even if you don't think he's a good guy, its obvious he's up to something the World Government may not approve of.

Also, he has mentioned both Ace and Dragon which is rather odd. I don't really think Dragon is going to show up quite yet, but I really don't have a clue when he would so who knows. Of course if Dragon did show up that would be interesting since Garp is coming to the island as well.

If Zoro went anywhere, I'm pretty sure it wasn't Impel Down. I've been saying this for so long now that I'm not even going to bother restating my reasons. Just know I said it way back when.

I also think it's silly to make statements like, "Ray's sword is probably just shinier than Brook's was, so it works". And for crying out loud the sword is not seastone. If it was, Kizaru's sword would vanish just from touching it because he is using his devil fruit power to make the sword. There is absolutely no way to argue this, the evidence is irrefutable.

Finally, I think Onomatopeoia was right about the axe, it probably has a devil fruit. I'm guessing along with him, but when you're introduced with your axe like it's a person then I think it's a valid idea.

So, here's my percents:

47 Pacifistas - 0%

Axe-guy a Sasuke spoof - 63.2%

Kuma gets dingleberries -15%

PX1 complains that Kuma was built with a bigger cod piece - 69%

[Tomgoood01]

As well to add to Blackhair's point the SH are in the process of trying to escape but Zoro being still injured from TP as well exhausted from the fight with PX-4 and being hit by Kizaru's crazy attack not sure which one being the kick or a laser but it dealt damage and an explosion. ( I'm going with the Kick because there is no Laser hole in him, but the laser could of just brushed up against Zoro)

As well now targeted directly by the PX-1, Zoro who is the most weakest at this point of all the SH and everyone knows and is concerned for (except the bad guys lol ) is trying to get him to safer ground. ( ex Sanji leaving Nami to go after the Zoro)

So i would that assume that Kuma was maybe for brief moment before he arrived that he saw this scenario. That would make sense to say that Kuma saw that is was in Zoro's best interest just be gone from the situation. For he was at that moment a BURDEN for everyone where the rest of the Sh can handle themselves.( not trying to be mean but it's a fitting word) So in my opinion what Kuma did was the perfect solution to the problem, i can see that as being called HELP.

[shon3n]

Oh Dear God,
How can You make a person like Eichiro Oda ?

I have seen still no pattern on this arc,Oda really make almost unpredictable ending this time.But i still sure that this arc its not the time to go to impel down.

Yes,Ace is now is in prison and whitebird pirates will fight with all sinchibukai.But don't forget that Eichiro Oda ever said that One Piece now still a half way.Why need to go to impel down if now is still in a half way journey ? So I think this is just a "lesson" arc for SH crew to face the new world.

We will see our hero will much much strongger after this arc.

[gold349]

It isn't the time for SH's to go to ID, they are not any way ready to face any big shots, just imagine the force that would be sent against them if they ever went there to free prisoners. The biggest threats to WG are housed there, they just about survived the pacifista and couldn't do any more to the threat at hand never mind having a bigger threat to to deal with if they ever broke in to ID.

[Host Samurai]

I don't know but Kuma is making less and less sense to me. Is he a ''friend'' or a foe? That guy is actin on his own whim he saved Zoro from PX1. What are his reasons saving an enemy from certain death... that guy is a mystery to me but i like that attitude of his.

[k-dom]

granted, kuma is shishibukai, he doesn't owe anything to the SH's but the way he has approached them, made a deal with them (Zoro at least), didn't follow direct orders (to annihilate all on TB), left them all alive, helped Luffy with his fatigue and damage, complimented on the SH's crew and said it as if he knows Dragon somehow, its all theory/views/opinions that he may be good and may help the SH's its not a given but things point to Kuma being good (IMO).

Kuma can be good for sure (like Garp or Smoker) but he has chosen his side. If he would help the SH, that would mean a betrayal of the world government and I do not see what he gain from saving them.




Luffys Development
Luffys rating of the situation and his reaction to it was great!
It shows that he is able to estimate the power of the enemy and to reason that the enemy is too strong to fight.
A good development after their meeting with Aokiji where he recklessy wanted to fight the admiral.



That was not reckless at all remember (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-321/page011.html)

[Kuro]

As well to add to Blackhair's point the SH are in the process of trying to escape but Zoro being still injured from TP as well exhausted from the fight with PX-4 and being hit by Kizaru's crazy attack not sure which one being the kick or a laser but it dealt damage and an explosion. ( I'm going with the Kick because there is no Laser hole in him, but the laser could of just brushed up against Zoro)

As well now targeted directly by the PX-1, Zoro who is the most weakest at this point of all the SH and everyone knows and is concerned for (except the bad guys lol ) is trying to get him to safer ground. ( ex Sanji leaving Nami to go after the Zoro)

So i would that assume that Kuma was maybe for brief moment before he arrived that he saw this scenario. That would make sense to say that Kuma saw that is was in Zoro's best interest just be gone from the situation. For he was at that moment a BURDEN for everyone where the rest of the Sh can handle themselves.( not trying to be mean but it's a fitting word) So in my opinion what Kuma did was the perfect solution to the problem, i can see that as being called HELP.

Totally agree with you. Zoro himself (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/10/) really knows that he's not of much help at the moment and that he only slows down his nakama (although I would be crushed to hear something like that from someone like Usopp... *lol* XD).
Very good way to solve this problem, Oda! And now we get the chance to see the other Strawhats dealing with a loss of one of their nakama... they still don't know if he's dead or not, maybe we get to see some memoryscenes of the other SHs about their most memorable personal scenes with Zoro (although I think that we will see something like that in chapter 514/515)

[Tomgoood01]

OMG what is with everyone with ID. I know it sounds like a cool place and Ace is there as well it would be nice to pick him up along the way, but that's not One Piece reality. Maybe in some time of One piece they might go there but not anytime soon. Were in the middle of the Archipelago arc and with a switch to go save Zoro would be going backwards we already done the saving Nakama routine with Robin.

Kuma would not show up now and send Zoro now to ID because he could have done that on TP and got the whole crew. Plus that Pact he made with Zoro would be pointless if was to hunt him down after. Kuma is a Loyal Pirate even the WG can't persuade him to take back what he promised.

I think that Kuma's ability of teleportation is one with requirements. I think Kuma himself can not choose where he or she can send him. That question he asks at the beginning "If you where going on a trip, where would you like to go" is to have a place to send them even if Kuma dose not know where it is. I think all that is needed is that the person being teleported knows not Kuma himself. Because then he could go all around catching pirates and sending them to ID just by touching them. So this skill would only be good for getting rid or helping people out which we have seen in both cases. (EX Kuma getting rid of that annoying Perona) Anyway that is my best reasoning i wonder if anyone agrees or not?

[LoS]

I am getting tired of this physics talk people. Why are you assuming that manga writers are all Physicists? After all it is a flipping cartoon, anything can happen, whatever Oda wants to happen will happen regardless of physical laws.

[Andonan]

I don't think there is going to be any fighting, I thought last week perhaps but I don't think Oda will turn around and now have the SH's start attacking just after Luffy has yelled "RUN!!!!!" contradictory isn't exactly Oda's style, this is turning out to be the cliched, formulae "first meeting" where the SH's are disgraced by their newest enemy only to later produce incredible amounts of resolve and overcome the enemies later :)

[Sachsenhesse]

I think we will see Zoro after this in every chapter.

In the Coverstory. :)

[feanaro]

first of all great chapter as always:P

I'm totally agreeing with you that taking zoro away from the fight was the best thing to do. the question is where he was send to. ID wouldn't make sense, his home town... well, even with the vivre card he won't ever manage to find his way back, knowing his sense of orientation...

his only wish except of making luffy pirate king is becoming the world's greatest swordsman. It would be awesome if kuma took away all his damage and send him to battle with hawkeye;) giving him a chance to take part in whitebeard vs shichibukai, and two epic fights at once (ray vs kizaru being the other)

and it wouldn't make kuma a traitor, if he thinkf that hawkeye will finally kill him
but maybe its to early for that

p.s. chopper can make it:D

[kounavi007]

i agree with the fact that kuma is there to help them out of this situation.i don't although believe that kuma gives them the choice where they would lie to be but he sends them wherever he wants and that they might end up either at their boat or a better turn of the story to end up where dragon is at least for the time being.i say that because there seems to be a connection between kuma and dragon and i would like to turn out to be that kuma is actually working with dragon than the WG.i'm just saying that might be a possibility.waiting for your opinions

[neomaster121]

i think kuma action was to make it easy to deliver the news to kizaru

that they need to leave these pirates for now and go back
i think this becasuse kizaru broke his reciever and this fight is take much longer with his mini detour with the sn

[paradoxe]

para is probably bored and talking crap, I know how it fells :P

ITS ON THE PAGE.
=.=


Usopp - Whats going on here?!!! I can't take it ~~~~~ !!!

Usopp - How many of these guys are there anyway??!!

Kuma - 47...


http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-512/page017.html

On page 17..not 18. My mistake.

Or did I read it wrong?
The 47..wasn't in reply to Usopp's question?

[Host Samurai]

i think kuma action was to make it easy to deliver the news to kizaru

that they need to leave these pirates for now and go back
i think this becasuse kizaru broke his reciever and this fight is take much longer with his mini detour with the sn

That would fit his character that Oda showed us so far just like in TB. He came to deliver a message from the WG in person.

[dmnt3d]

regarding Chopper,
he did ate a Rumble Ball. You could clearly see it on this page: (Lower Left Panel).
Once an addict - will always be an addict :)

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/15/

[Mr.Popo]

A good development after their meeting with Aokiji where he recklessy wanted to fight the admiral.

That was not reckless at all remember (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-321/page011.html)
I did't meant that situation where he actually fought, but rather the situation two chapters before (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/319/07/).
In the situation you picked out the fight was indeed inevitable.


..., but Oda has never been one to repeat himself, ... And if Zoro is taken to ID that would be a repeat of the EL arc saving Robin.............
That is so damn wrong!
No offence intended, but as so many people are saying that, i have to comment this opinion.
Life is repeating, One Piece is repeating.
In East Blue they saved Namis hometown, Ussups hometown and in this spirit Sanjis home.
On the Grand Line they continued to save Vivi homeland from a civil war and did something very similar on Skypia.
So you say there can't be yet another rescue arc because it would be repetitive? I say there can!
"rescue arc" is just a category. Oda made a good job making similar arcs looking completely different and he will keep on doing so.
So if the SHs will go on yet another rescue arc, there will be a twist of some sort and it will by no means look like the Robin rescue arc.


The 47..wasn't in reply to Usopp's question?I think it wasn't 47, but some untranslated kanji looking lilke it. At least the font looks different.

Some thoughts about Zorros whereabout: There are two possibilities:
* Somewhere Zorro wanted to be
- he wants to stay at the side of his friend, either as decoy or distraction.
- he wants to stay away from them to avoid being a burden.
* Somewhere Kuma wanted him to be
- ???
The question Kuma always asks before teleporting someone indicates that he actually can't decide where he sends his opponent to.

[Moroboshi]

ITS ON THE PAGE.
=.=



http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-512/page017.html

On page 17..not 18. My mistake.

Or did I read it wrong?
The 47..wasn't in reply to Usopp's question?

That it's not a number but a symbol/letter from the Japanese alphabet (hiragana o katakana I don't know). maybe shredlord can translate it for us, so we know what that means.

[Tomgoood01]

http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-512/page017.html

On page 17..not 18. My mistake.

Or did I read it wrong?
The 47..wasn't in reply to Usopp's question?

On the onemanga version they have that edited out as a blank bobble. But it's pointing at Zoro so it was Zoro speaking not Kuma i tried to find a raw version and see what it says if it's the same thing in that bobble then it's not 47 but the two Katakana letter saying Muku. I don't really know what that means but it's not a Japaneses word being that it's in katakana could be a sound effect. I can only know if i see the raw version.

[descendant]

yeah it's MUKU
i think it's a sound effect
zoro hand was on his shoulder so i bet it's the sound of his wound or his bones

okay i just found an interesting website that list out japanese sound effect
so u guys can check out what this 'MUKU' sound means
http://www.oop-ack.com/manga/soundfx.html

so according this website it should mean the sound of zoro getting up

[natli]

Luffy one again proves that he's a great leader. It was heartbreaking when he shouted at them to run... his expression was great to. And then Sanji taking the laser to the chest to save Zoro and Usopp telling Zoro to shut up because they are escaping with him...and Robin picking up Luffy and running...lots of great scenes this week.

Anyway, current situation looks very bad. Unless SH will be saved by another unexpected plot twist their only hope is Chopzilla. He might defeat Sentomaru and even the remaining Pacifista. But I don't think he's strong enough for Kuma.

[methodmethod2]

Predictions...


#1 - the possibility that zoro asked to go back in time, although doubtful oda would add an ability such as that into the manga.


#2 - regardless of where zoro asked/thought to go, kuma teleports zoro to the prison ace is being held in, would further involve the SH's in the upcoming arc, however from what we have seen.. Kuma appears to be a pretty.. honorable fellow, and he does have a bible.. So we can assume he would take the person to there specified location. Also.. It's hard to tell how close the SH's are to encountering the "save ace arc".


#3 - Zoro is gone, we have no idea where he went, and the SH's have no idea where he went. Afterwards.. Kuma reveals a clue as to the location he teleported Zoro too.

I recall perona replying to Kumas "question", with.. "Somewhere near an old castle engulfed in malice". It's plausible that zoro said something similiar.. You know, not an "actual" location, more like.. A description of a place. So kuma could repeat zoro's request and leave it up to the SH's to find him.. If they can survive/escape.


#4 - Kuma -

Ok, what bothers me about kuma is.. The fact that, he cant have seen, and been everywhere. Yes, he has the ability to move anywhere, at anytime, but i would think that, that ability is limited by his own knowledge of the world. Yes he is a former pirate, so its safe to assume he has been around.. But what if someone wants to go to China, but hes never been to China before, how does this work? Bah i suppose its silly trying to apply logic to a manga.. But still!

Also.. Is Kumas ability simply.. The ability to take something, and move it somewhere else?

Actually thats what i love about this manga.. You see luffy with the "rubber ability", and it sounds so black and white. Yet, overtime, we see him use rubber in many different ways, even develope unique forms through it. All these radical new ways to use seemingly "simple" powers.

Makes me wonder about past DF users we dont hear about anymore.


Also.. Does anyone else think that maybe Ray is not even a DF user? I was shocked to see him go toe to toe with a logia user, but then he reveals his own sword. Now.. Is this just a lucky matchup? I assumed zoro would be an asset in the fight vs the admiral purely because of his weapons, metal swords, reflect light, ect, ect. But he was transported elsewhere, so i was worried. Then ray stepped in, and blocked the admiral with his foot! Now i contemplated two possibilities.. Seastones (Blah!), and "will power".


I think we can rule out seastones, because the idea of "will power", has already been introduced as a weapon, even though it was only used to deal with weaker folk. But then again, the idea that.. One can deflect a Light based attack simply by saying.. "I think i can, I think i can", seems kind of silly. Even though thats not how you achieve "will power" its the general idea.


Could Ray have a DF that allows him to be.. The Anti-Logia user? No no, thats ridiculous, oda is using Ray to introduce a new way to defend against logia users, and somehow thats going to tie into the new type of fighting technique used by uh.. senturma? The chubby guy with the axe xD.


Anywho, sorry if this is all over the place, I was pretty much just typing what i thought. I have alot more to say, but its all jumbled in my head at the moment. Thank you for reading, ect, ect.

Cant wait for the next chapter!

[Andonan]

@Mr Popo, dude ok seriously to start don't insult somebody and then pretend like you didn't it's more offensive just be open about, so anyway

In both the cases of Nami's hometown and Usopp, there is important background in both cases, yes you could make the argument that may of the SH"s were recruited after a period of strife but that's a motif, that not Oda repeating himself...... REPEATING ones self would be having the SH's travel to a WG base or prison and set free a nakama who has been captured, Luffy and co traveling to Nami's hometown )after considerable back story) has already been given as evidence is certainly not even close to the same thing as when the Pirates were stopped by the SH's at Usopp's home town..... I can list a whole series of reasons why those were two very different scenarios which aren't remotely similar...... So to sum up, if your going to insult someone at least do it like a man, and if your going to make a point at least supply some sort of evidence......

Oh well this is sorta off topic, so Zoro has been saved by the real Kuma and is now going to find out some big revelation like that Kuma is actually working for Dragon or something along those lines

[methodmethod2]

Oh well this is sorta off topic, so Zoro has been saved by the real Kuma and is now going to find out some big revelation like that Kuma is actually working for Dragon or something along those lines


Good prediction! Didnt even think of that.

But that does lead into the whole, Kuma is an android, and as such may not have a "Will of his own". Of course that could be argued after he showed the SH's mercy during the thriller park arc. However that could just be some crazy sort of robot logic. I suppose Franky is an android and is in control of his actions, so i guess i kind of dissproved my point.

[wing_gundam]

The question Kuma always asks before teleporting someone indicates that he actually can't decide where he sends his opponent to.

Are ya kidding? He carries around a bible, yet he's supposed to be a vicious pirate.

Have you not heard the expression in a fight,


tap, tap.
"oh excuse, me?"
FacePUNCH


I read Kuma's line as sarcastic humour where he's toying with the guy on where to go first.

However it is a kids manga, so we'll see...

[Darek Khort]

I was hoping Kid and Law would come and help them. Would have been strange since they are apparently in entirely different locations but one has magnet magnet, and one has space space (of course these are speculative-names for their abilities).

But thinking about it what I can see is Kizaru asking why Kuma is here. Kuma will reply saying Kizaru is taking way too long to clean this up and that WG needs him at the frontline against WB. Kuma then leaves with Kizaru and the rest, or just leaving Sentoumaru and PX-1 to take care of the rest.

[shredlord]

But that does lead into the whole, Kuma is an android, and as such may not have a "Will of his own". Of course that could be argued after he showed the SH's mercy during the thriller park arc. However that could just be some crazy sort of robot logic. I suppose Franky is an android and is in control of his actions, so i guess i kind of dissproved my point.

Well, we have to distinguish between cyborgs and androids. A cyborg is a human with robotic augmentations, just like the Borg from Star Trek, or Robocop, while an android (greek ανδρός, andros = man) is simply a totally artificial being with a human shape, like the Terminator or C3PO.

Since Kuma is a cyborg and the pacifistas are most likely androids, I pretty sure that Kuma is only loyal to the WG because his own motives, while the PXes are just mindless robots.

I think, Kuma is one of the most ambiguous characters in OP, since he (just like Aokiji) had more than one chance to take out the SHs easily, but he didn't, though it was his order.

Since he's carrying the bible, perhaps he turns out to be not the tyrant he was called in the past...

[paradoxe]

Well he obviously had a change of heart between the time he was a pirate and now...

And I don't think PXs are androids. I don't think there are robots in OPverse..PXes are probably cyborgs as well..just WG fanatics? Like the CP9.

[Host Samurai]

Well he obviously had a change of heart between the time he was a pirate and now...

And I don't think PXs are androids. I don't think there are robots in OPverse..PXes are probably cyborgs as well..just WG fanatics? Like the CP9.

IMO the PXs are robots since that chapter, this page is proof enough that the PXs are robots these PXs have a bounty trackin system :D.
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-512/page008.html

[shredlord]

And I don't think PXs are androids. I don't think there are robots in OPverse..PXes are probably cyborgs as well..just WG fanatics? Like the CP9

I know it's hard to imagine, but on the other hand, how could even Dr. Vegapunk find SEVERAL humans with the same physiognomy like Kuma's?

Hmm... except they did clone Kuma. But that would be... oh well, the only thing we know about Oda's thoughts is, that we NEVER know them. ^^

[Sachsenhesse]

I know it's hard to imagine, but on the other hand, how could even Dr. Vegapunk find SEVERAL humans with the same physiognomy like Kuma's?

Hmm... except they did clone Kuma. But that would be... oh well, the only thing we know about Oda's thoughts is, that we NEVER know them. ^^

Thats the thing i was wondering about too. Maybe vegapunk had this man from kumas homeisland, but the most possible choice is cloning. :/

----

cloning zoro.... :D

[Anispire]

Hmm, maybe Dragon appear... that would be history repeats!

Dragon save them from marines so that strawhats can enter grand line.
Now dragon save them from marines again so that they can enter the New world!!!!

[Mr.Popo]

@Andonan, i greatly apologize. This was by no means meant as an insult, for me (as non english native) it was "just" harshly written, although that should be a no-go too.

I think we have a perception problem here. From a very generalized point of view most of the arcs were acturally rescue arcs of some sort. But that is not my point of view nor is it yours.

As for the hometowns one was saved from a ongoing thread the other from a upcoming thread. So generally spoken both were rescued.

And what about Skypia and Alabasta? Skypia was ruled by a "tyrant" (Enel) opposed by the Shandians, Alabasta by a so-called "tyrant" (Cobra->official, Crocodile->inofficial but actually a tyrant) opposted by the rebels.
For me both arc are based on the same story type: bringing peace to a country.
Both situations had a very different background and the setup was not the same either, but that is my point: repeating the story type, but not the story itself.

So there won't a a rescue arc where the SHs will fight their way trough enemy lines, set Zorro free and escaping afterwards. This would be a direct copy of the Robin rescue arc and the Camie incident. This would indeed be too repetitive.
But that does not deny the possibility of a similar, yet totally different rescue arc for Zorro, or any other story type to be repeated.
Same type, different story.


So to sum up, if your going to insult someone at least do it like a man, and if your going to make a point at least supply some sort of evidence......
It was neither meant as an insult nor expecially against you rather against that argument you share with others.
I apologize again and hope the evidence and my point of view is more clear now.


On Topic:
Zorro is gone and i doubt Kuma would give a hint of his whereabouts.
And if he wants to keep on being a Shichibukai he can't defend the SHs against the marines too openly.
Kizaru stated that the marines have no choice, but going against the prime offenders of the tenryuubito. Fighting Rayleigh is not his duty and it seems he wouldn't mind skipping it. But the SHs are a totally different story. For Kuma not going against the SHs is one thing but helping them is another nonexcusable one.

I think the conclusion of this situation depends on how strong Monster Chopper is on the one hand and what Kumas real intentions are on the other hand.

[Sachsenhesse]

And what about Skypia and Alabasta? Skypia was ruled by a "tyrant" (Enel) opposed by the Shandians, Alabasta by a so-called "tyrant" (Cobra->official, Crocodile->inofficial but actually a tyrant) opposted by the rebels.

You forgot Drumm. Its exactly the same with Wapol.

[Risen]

Reading one of the post I made a funny theory... maybe is possible that Kizaro clone himself. Let me explain.

Everybody knows that if you put a prism between the light you get a rainbow.
Just think 1 Kizaro for each color LOL. :D
It would be funny.
That way he could possible fight ray and run after the SH's... Don't know how would they escape..or live..

[monkey D luffy]

the chapter was awesome but only one thing bugs me: how the hell ray was fast enough to catch up to light? kizaru used his light speed yet ray was there before him??? the fight will be ending next chapter but it can turn out either way good or bad

[mr.danly]

the chapter was awesome but only one thing bugs me: how the hell ray was fast enough to catch up to light? kizaru used his light speed yet ray was there before him??? the fight will be ending next chapter but it can turn out either way good or bad

actually I don't think ray caught up to the light; he cut it off with whatever ability he's using (my guess is STILL HAKI!!!!). http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/07/ You can see Kizaru sending out the beam, and he begins to transform himself into light to travel through the beam, but Rayleigh cuts him off with his sword.

[Yabe]

IMO the PXs are robots since that chapter, this page is proof enough that the PXs are robots these PXs have a bounty trackin system :D.
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-512/page008.html

I believe they're not robots because went back in the chapter a PX fought with X. Drake, he did prove that one could bleed (too lazy to find the link, sorry).

About rescuing Zoro arc - I think it's unlikely seeing SHs don't look ready to take anymore big fight so soon - besides if the power Kuma showed is really transporting and he transported Zoro to Impel Down, then in which solution you predict Luffy and the other crews would go there 'cause it was said before by Nami that the place's only opened to the Gate of Justice at EL and in the deep ocean itself (note: their ship hasn't been ready; it'd take them at least 2 1/2 days not going underwater).

@Mr.Popo: I agree in every arcs the SHs fought they had a purpose to save someone. But (if bringing about some patterns) their targets have always been newly introduced character in that arc or a nakama who we had yet to know of their backgroud. Luffy saved Zoro once for him to be his first crew, besides don't you think that'd decrease Zoro's pride even more to have turned out becoming everybody's burden?

As you had pointed out in the past discussion that this arc was meant to be showing how 'very tough' the NW is; which's the thing we're seeing right now, I think that's the point of it already and Oda's unlikely to have the SHs rescue anymore people here after all they did with Caimie and Hachi. I guess this fight things won't take long and Kuma is probably the key to rush thing up (as someone already said it). I guess what we'll see after the fight (and while waiting for the coating to finish) would be how Luffy and everyone would improve their strenght 'cause right now it looked like their prior confidence in their power's crushed to some extent.

[gold349]

I know it's hard to imagine, but on the other hand, how could even Dr. Vegapunk find SEVERAL humans with the same physiognomy like Kuma's?

Hmm... except they did clone Kuma. But that would be... oh well, the only thing we know about Oda's thoughts is, that we NEVER know them. ^^

Veg punk wouldn't need Kuma size people or people with same physiognomy, he is made from steel, the frame could be moulded, just kuma's specifications would be required. Why he used Kuma body and Kizaru abilities is the mystery, we should know more now as the man himself is here.

One thing I would say, him transporting Zoro is other than to harm him, by sending him some where like ID or to a place where he would not recieve good treatment is IMO not the case, I mean Zoro was all but near dead, he could have just finished him on the spot if he wanted and no body could have done doodoo about it, I'm so looking forward to next chapter.

[Zoro-kun]

I've never belived that the SH's was so WEAK ... :P when they defeated Kuma px-4 they was all allmost dead from 1 attack each.. I was like "WTF?"..

why the **** was Nico robin exhausted?? she did like 1 normal attack with her hands, even NAMI was tired, and she made a thundersky.. rofl..

But for this chapter, Sanji was being a p***y, "one more of those attacks, and im gonna break my leg".. omg... it's Sanji we're talking about here!!

Luffy is getting SOOOO pwned by a non-DF-user.... pathetic........

Brooke has allways been pathtic, "a bonecrushing defeat" kinda funny though, but still very weak..

the Dark King is awsome though, and chopper too :)
Franky almost killed the px-1 Kuma, so he did good ...

For Zoro... I am crying... Zoro is the coolest and the strongest of the SH's. so what is acctually happening to the SH's? they all have to get like 10 times stronger if they want to go the new world.. I hope Luffy developes a 4th gear and/or 5th gear.. Sanji.. if he almost break his foot from 1 kick, why dont he kick with the other foot too? =)

Next chapter i hope we get to see some chopper pwnage and dark king, and ODA PLS!! let us know something about Zoro! =(

[mr.danly]

I've never belived that the SH's was so WEAK ... :P when they defeated Kuma px-4 they was all allmost dead from 1 attack each.. I was like "WTF?"..

why the **** was Nico robin exhausted?? she did like 1 normal attack with her hands, even NAMI was tired, and she made a thundersky.. rofl..

But for this chapter, Sanji was being a p***y, "one more of those attacks, and im gonna break my leg".. omg... it's Sanji we're talking about here!!

Luffy is getting SOOOO pwned by a non-DF-user.... pathetic........

Brooke has allways been pathtic, "a bonecrushing defeat" kinda funny though, but still very weak..

the Dark King is awsome though, and chopper too :)
Franky almost killed the px-1 Kuma, so he did good ...

For Zoro... I am crying... Zoro is the coolest and the strongest of the SH's. so what is acctually happening to the SH's? they all have to get like 10 times stronger if they want to go the new world.. I hope Luffy developes a 4th gear and/or 5th gear.. Sanji.. if he almost break his foot from 1 kick, why dont he kick with the other foot too? =)

Next chapter i hope we get to see some chopper pwnage and dark king, and ODA PLS!! let us know something about Zoro! =(

He said "If I attack again, I'll break my legs." In the plural. Obviously the point is not using the other leg, but the hardness of the Pacifista's bodies. And Nami and Robin are probably tired from all the running around, screaming, and dodging they've been doing. Even the most athletic normal human would be out of breath after running for your life for 15 minutes.

[Onomatopoeia]

THeir was probablly a lot of off panel fighting you know. It happens all the time, how do you think Urouge got beaten up by that PX?

[noot_das_schaf]

holy sh**** that chapter was SO epic!!!!!
it looks more than bad for the SH. and to be honest..... i can't see much of a way out of it for them. Ray can't take on Kizaru, Sentomaru AND PX-1.
i really hope that kuma is secretly helping them... he HAS connections to Dragon so.... maybe? please? :wtf
otherway they are doomed imo.

[Amekage]

It is logical that Kuma has teleported Zoro somewhere safe. As some other users said, if he wanted to kill him, he could have just let it go on and Zoro wouldn't be anymore.

But which reason could he have?

He intended to kill at least Zoro at Thriller Bark, so you cant say that Kuma actually is a subordinate of Dragon or a fanboy of the Mugiwaras.

I don't believe, that Kuma knew Zoro would be that resistend.

The new member of the Strawhatss will be...

Sentoumaru...

He IS strong after all. He doesn't hate pirates in general. He has a wierd personality. In an all out fight I can see him loosing against Zoro and Luffy at least. Following scenario:

Mugiwaras find sth. out about government. Sentoumaru didn't know about this dark side and his honor will tell him to leave VP who works for WG but may not know everything about them. Why would Sentoumaru do?

Strawhats flee to FI. And Sentoumaru is on the ship, too.

Sentoumaru: Its not like I'm gonna be a pirate starting now... ... ... ... I just had to find new friends.

Perhaps his axe is able to tell jokes so Luffy can't say no!

I know, this theorie is a bit wierd and not very likely at all but just think about it. Is there any other character with a personality that has those individual crazinesses which would fit to the crew?

[rhysno1]

its says no such thing that there are 47 pacifistas

[neomaster121]

maybe Zoro's dad is also working with luffy's dad and after hearing what his son did for his bosses son he wanted to meet Zoro

or he has been sent to vegapunk to replace his broken heart for a robotic heart

or maybe Zoro is somewhere he wants to be where he can either rest, get stronger, or not be a hinderance to the crew

[Onomatopoeia]

How the hell do we know Zoro's dad is even living? And what proof do you have that he's working for Dragon?

[Mr.Popo]

As you had pointed out in the past discussion that this arc was meant to be showing how 'very tough' the NW is; which's the thing we're seeing right now, I think that's the point of it already and Oda's unlikely to have the SHs rescue anymore people here after all they did with Caimie and Hachi.
I don't think there will be a Zorro rescue arc any time soon, nor do i hope there will be one. I only wanted to say that another rescue ark is not more repetitive than other arc types.

And one addition to the repeating of story types. I'm seeing it from Odas point of view, not the SHs point of view. The SHs wanted to bring peace to Alabasta, but not to Skypia. Oda obviously wanted peace for both countries.

My prediction and hope is actually that Zorro is gone for a while. That would be a nice story twist. And don't get me wrong, Zorro is my favorite character.
Although it would be the third time a member left the crew, but it would also be the third different reason and now even the second most important member.
I'm looking forward to see if other SHs have hope for his return, or are "knowing" about his death.


And Kuma is really one mysterious character. His motives are more and more unclear to me.
Is he there on his own?
Kumas first words to Zorro let me belief that he thought Zorro died back on Thriller Bark and hence his only personal "connection" to the SHs. And being impressed by Luffys ability to gather loyal companions shouldn't be enough. So low probability for this.
or to do someone a favor?
Another reason could be a friendly turn or some sort of debt to Rayleigh or Garp.
Both (should) know the situation, unlike Dragon.
or something more official?
I doubt it is because of an official mission from marine HQ, the marine forces are already strong enough.
I forgot: He could be there to order the admiral back to HQ, but than: didn't Kizaru have a telebug?

[mr.danly]

yeah... no offense neomaster but that theory's pretty out there... let's go with the simple Kuma saved Zoro, and now he'll tell Kizaru to back off theory.

[BlackHair]

Im beginning to think Garp couldn't come because of Sengoku or w.e reason, there are many potentialities. So he must have send Kuma instead, since he showed mercy back on TB.

Zoro in ID = 0%

SHs cant accomplishment to rescue some1 from ID. As I believe its a one-way ticket to that prison and it must be heavily guarded, since the worst guys ever are there. And without Zoro, they are even weaker in force.
Kuma must be there friendly, not as enemy. If he was there to kill or capture them, I don't see slightest hope for the SHs. Therefore Zoro must be safe.


Maybe we will see sth from Sanji like Zoro vs Kuma or Luffy vs Ao Kiji. Both shined as they were sacfricing themeself for the crew. I think it may be a chance for Sanji to shine like that. Dont have to be now, but any time soon.

[GeckoMoria]

@mr. popo i had that same idea about the debt thing i posted it back on page 2 or 3 i think so i agree with u on that but i also think kuma has just begun his teleporting and will teleport all the other SHs with him to a safe place but will make it seem like he killed them to kizaru. i wrote up a better prediction on page 2 or 3 if u wanna read that :)

[camil222]

ya guys i think kumas actually sended zoro somewhere safe. i mean he stoped the pacifista from killing him and teleported him somewhere.

[neomaster121]

How the hell do we know Zoro's dad is even living? And what proof do you have that he's working for Dragon?

lol i was joking about luffy dad and Zoro's dad

it was completly random not to be taken serious

[Mr.Popo]

@mr. popo i had that same idea about the debt thing i posted it back on page 2 or 3 i think so i agree with u on that but i also think kuma has just begun his teleporting and will teleport all the other SHs with him to a safe place but will make it seem like he killed them to kizaru. i wrote up a better prediction on page 2 or 3 if u wanna read that :)
It is actually your idea. I read that post. I used it since then, since it's a very good theory, but i only gave proper credit to you in the first post about this.

[monkey D luffy]

actually I don't think ray caught up to the light; he cut it off with whatever ability he's using (my guess is STILL HAKI!!!!). http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/512/07/ You can see Kizaru sending out the beam, and he begins to transform himself into light to travel through the beam, but Rayleigh cuts him off with his sword.
ok but still to be able to cutting in and surprising kizaru is like exceeding the speed of light or at least being extremly close to it

[yellowblue]

Well Kuma might send Zoro to the prison where Ace is held. This will lead the strawhats to the battle between WG and WB. At the same time we might see BB who also have to settle score with them.

The sword that Rayleigh have might have some kind of sea water stone in them for DF users (forgot the term) and it might end in the hands of Zoro but that means Rayleigh might die or be captured.

[Mische]

well if he was that fast he could have taken them all out in a blink of an eye. there is a limitation to his speed.

Since the Logia type was introduced there were a lot of discussions about how to beat these guys. there has to be a certain weakness. so far they seemed to be impossible to beat as long as you´re not lucky with the DF you got (luffy vs Enel). Either its the good old seastone or some new method (actually more a old method as Ray is using it ;)).

Kumas appearance really is shocking. the question is what he is doing there... its not like the marines really depend on him. As someone said maybe he is there to get them back to the HQ.He might as well be ordered by Kizaru to go after Law and Kid since Kizaru himself will be occupied for another time and the marines seem to be too sure of their vctory over the Sh´s
.
I see Chopper crushing PX1 but lossing to Sentomaru. Luffy has to stand up now and save everyone. The crew is being crushed right in front of his eyes. He once said that he wanted to get stronger to protect his nakama from strong guys like aokji. He has to show if he can stand up to his words. He will deal with Sentomaru. He is tough but in my eyes beatable if Luffy goes all out. after being relieved from his pain by Kuma in TB he should be fittest of all of the SH´s and should be able to make the next step in his powerlevel.

Ray and the Admiral seem to be rather even in strenght. i see no one winning here. they will more or less watch the fight Luffy against Sentomaru and after Luffys victory Kizaru will retreat. Maybe WB attacks (a likely possibility since its still !3! more days. even 10 min in this place means hel on earth for the sh´s right now...)
With that time gap Ray could finish his coating. Its likely that they won´t get off the island that easy so i see another fight coming up then!

[Onomatopoeia]

I think Kuma being here brings up serious questions with the WB war. Why is he here? He has way more important things to do like getting ready for war and planning. Just because you don't think they're close to you doesn't mean you should be cautious.

[mr.danly]

well he could be here to tell Kizaru that he needs to head back to fight the WB pirates. The WG could have sent him, since he CAN teleport instantly, and therefore is probably their fastest messenger; they did send him to talk to Moria, as well, after all. Him teleporting Zoro could've been completely out of his own agenda to help him out; Kuma does seem to have a sense of honor, after all. However, I do believe that he was sent by the WG; he has no reason to show up otherwise. How else would he get word that the SH crew was on the Shabondy Archipelago, and even if he just assumed they were there, why would he have gone to help them unless he knew they were in trouble? I believe that helping the SH crew (if that's what he's actually doing), is NOT his main agenda. He never had that close of a bond with them to start with; he just decided not to murder them all.

[Super Angillis]

well he could be here to tell Kizaru that he needs to head back to fight the WB pirates. The WG could have sent him, since he CAN teleport instantly, and therefore is probably their fastest messenger; they did send him to talk to Moria, as well, after all. Him teleporting Zoro could've been completely out of his own agenda to help him out; Kuma does seem to have a sense of honor, after all. However, I do believe that he was sent by the WG; he has no reason to show up otherwise. How else would he get word that the SH crew was on the Shabondy Archipelago, and even if he just assumed they were there, why would he have gone to help them unless he knew they were in trouble? I believe that helping the SH crew (if that's what he's actually doing), is NOT his main agenda. He never had that close of a bond with them to start with; he just decided not to murder them all.

That's my thinking too. The Seven Warlords got a manditory summons. Out of all them, Kuma is the only one who can go somewhere to get someone, send them where they are needed, and get back himself in next to no time. If Whitebeard made better time than was anticipated, then the Marines will want all there admirals. Course this is Oda, a mad genius. So we're probably all going to be wrong.

[Onomatopoeia]

Garp said it himself, their are legends their and if Kuma was unlucky enough to face off against Ray... well he's gonna be pretty beat up by the time he gets back. The reason they sent an admiral in the first place and not Kuma despite the fact that Kuma probablly could get their faster is because if Kizaru gets beat(not saying it would but hypothecitlly) thats bad but it won't affect WB vs 7 Royal Sichibuki's.. It doesn't say Marine HQ their for a reason.

This points to something, the fact that Kuma didn't go their by orders from MHQ.

[fallou]

Wow. Awesome. I love it when things look bad for the SHs: cause after they've gotten bad, they usually get awesome. So allright looks like there's gonna be some dramatic stuff(zoro disapearing, sanji brooke getting hurt real bad, luffy exhausted), and then the mugiwaras raise up to the challenge, do some stuff everyone thought was impossible. Kizaru is this arc's main villain, that's plain now, at least imo
Awright: Kizaru vs Luffy, Zoro vs real Kuma, Sanji vs Sentoumaru(won't come true but I like that idea)

[cloneofsnake]

WOW! What a chapter!! I think the biggest news is Ray's attacks on Kizaru! One thing I complained about OP right after the Sky Pier arc was that they didn't learn any new skills. (That mind reading / super hearing thing). Good thing in the EL arc, they all got upgrades... and I am REALLY hopeful here... that they will get a MAJOR upgrade via Ray... a way to beat Logia users!

I read the raw and it's pretty obvious that Kuma is on good terms w/ Zoro, so I don't think he sent Zoro to anywhere bad...

[dsr]

I can't say if Kuma is a goodie or a baddie, but I realize that if Kuma scatter Zoro anywhere else without a logpose, the SHs will never find him.
If Zoro only got send in the first part of the Grand Line, imagine how much time the SHs will need to search every island considering the times needed for the magnetization of the Logpose.

[tovi]

wow....what a chapter....I think kuma sent zoro to impel down...so luffy and Wb will go save zoro and ace together...i don't think there's a way luffy can save zorro without the help of yonkou's class....

[k-dom]

Kumas appearance really is shocking. the question is what he is doing there... its not like the marines really depend on him. As someone said maybe he is there to get them back to the HQ.He might as well be ordered by Kizaru to go after Law and Kid since Kizaru himself will be occupied for another time and the marines seem to be too sure of their vctory over the Sh´s
.
I see Chopper crushing PX1 but lossing to Sentomaru. Luffy has to stand up now and save everyone. The crew is being crushed right in front of his eyes. He once said that he wanted to get stronger to protect his nakama from strong guys like aokji. He has to show if he can stand up to his words. He will deal with Sentomaru. He is tough but in my eyes beatable if Luffy goes all out. after being relieved from his pain by Kuma in TB he should be fittest of all of the SH´s and should be able to make the next step in his powerlevel.



The PX1 is with Kuma and Usopp group (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-512/page0017.html), it is out of reach from Chopper. On the contrary, Sentoumarou is next to him (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-512/page0015.html) so I think there is no doubt what will be its next target
Concerning Kuma, the reason you said is the only logical one so far. Any other one would be an unknown fact from us


I can't say if Kuma is a goodie or a baddie, but I realize that if Kuma scatter Zoro anywhere else without a logpose, the SHs will never find him.
If Zoro only got send in the first part of the Grand Line, imagine how much time the SHs will need to search every island considering the times needed for the magnetization of the Logpose.

remember the vivre card ?

[Oni_James]

everybody is thinking about WG, Impel Down, etc... but let's think Kuma asks everyone before sending them: "If you're going on for a trip, where would you like to go?"
Zoro in that moment looks Kuma with an angry face, but Kuma may not ask the question just to send him to Impel Down, so if we think about places Zoro wants to go:
1: Fight Mihawk
2: Sunny Go?
Is the ship of the SH, i think it may be a place for him, and for the SH to feel safe.
3: An hospital
He's in a bad condition, he may want to go to an hospital, and i think of some situation in the past where Zoro had in this island some matter with an hospital(lasts panels of the page)
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/499/17/
I don't think that little battle with the tenryubito would be in vain :


Kuma can't make Zoro go so far, i mean, it'd be troublesome for Oda to write the story for the SH, and then write the story for Zoro

[Kuro]

Yep, I agree with you, Oni_James - the little incident with the tenryuubito and Zoro can't be totally in vain and I don't think that they only wanted to make Zoro meet up with Booney, too. Maybe he really thought of that hospital and is now 'shot' to that one to recover at least a bit.

Zoro's disappearance could also be a great opportunity for the SHs to think about Zoro's past and motivations... as I can remember, Luffy knows the motivations behind the dreams of all his nakama - except Zoro's. Zoro never told anyone about the incident with Kuina and that he made a promise with her (okay, he hinted something to Tashigi, at last). The SHs or at least Luffy could ask him after they meet up with him again.

Another thing that just crossed my mind... the parallels between Rayleigh and Zoro can't just be ignored, but what about the titles? Rayleighs is called 'The Dark King'/Hades King (or something like that XDD), Zoro is still called 'Pirate Hunter'... I think that he will get a namechange later on, something like 'Demon King'/'Demon God' :smile-big. There are plenty of hints in the whole OP story so far (right at the beginning his 'aura', then in Skypiea the referrence to 'God' and Zoro saying that he doesn't believe in any God while Chopper (dunno if it was really him) said something about Zoro being something like a God... then his Asuraform (Asura = godlike) and Kaku saying something like he looks like a 'fierce god' ect. ...).

[joyner]

I think the way ray nullify the logia is same as the fist of love works. just like garp says "there's no way anyone can escape the fist of love!!" at chapter 431. Its a technique that used by those strong old geezer, that's why they don't need DF.

[Superman]

I think the way ray nullify the logia is same as the fist of love works. just like garp says "there's no way anyone can escape the fist of love!!" at chapter 431. Its a technique that used by those strong old geezer, that's why they don't need DF.

So Rayleigh either loves Kizaru like a son or just love to kick his ass:XD:XD:XD.


Oh yeah. You ask why iam convinced Rey-san has a DF??:XD:XD:XD:XD
Pretty simple.;)
He said that he once was saved by Hacchin.
Soooooooo??!?!?!?!?! What does that tell us???????? right: Rey is a Fruit user and also a hammer. His ship sank and he was as good as dead. Hachin came by and saved his live as a Merman. Thats the whole story.

But i doubt that the fruit he has is nullifing other fruits. He has his tricks. He is a gambler you know:d:p

Or does anyone think that a legend like he is
need or needed help in a fight...???
I dont think so.:XD:XD
And if he fought strong opponents where he really needed help in a fight.......well.......then Hacchi, obvibiously, wasnt and isnt the right one, right?!:D:grin

[mr.danly]

Garp said it himself, their are legends their and if Kuma was unlucky enough to face off against Ray... well he's gonna be pretty beat up by the time he gets back. The reason they sent an admiral in the first place and not Kuma despite the fact that Kuma probablly could get their faster is because if Kizaru gets beat(not saying it would but hypothecitlly) thats bad but it won't affect WB vs 7 Royal Sichibuki's.. It doesn't say Marine HQ their for a reason.

This points to something, the fact that Kuma didn't go their by orders from MHQ.

....... I never said that Kuma's there to fight Rayleigh. I said that they sent Kuma as their messenger, since he can travel instantaneously. You said that the fact that Kuma is on the island poses serious questions about the WB battle, but it really doesn't. When Luffy first punched the Tenryuu, there was a meeting of the admirals. Sengoku talked about how troublesome this was; he was probably referring to the fact that seeing as the marines have to worry about WB, they didn't have the time to send an admiral to capture the SH crew. Kizaru also mentioned how unexpectedly troublesome this was; he kept running into more obstacles on the Archipelago. Sentou also said that Kizaru was taking way too long. Therefore, my theory is that the WG sent Kuma to tell Kizaru to get back to Marine HQ to fight the WB pirates; Kuma can travel instantly, so even if they're fighting WB RIGHT NOW, sending Kuma would be the smartest thing to do, since he can be there and back in two seconds.

[Host Samurai]

Yep, I agree with you, Oni_James - the little incident with the tenryuubito and Zoro can't be totally in vain and I don't think that they only wanted to make Zoro meet up with Booney, too. Maybe he really thought of that hospital and is now 'shot' to that one to recover at least a bit.

Zoro's disappearance could also be a great opportunity for the SHs to think about Zoro's past and motivations... as I can remember, Luffy knows the motivations behind the dreams of all his nakama - except Zoro's. Zoro never told anyone about the incident with Kuina and that he made a promise with her (okay, he hinted something to Tashigi, at last). The SHs or at least Luffy could ask him after they meet up with him again.

Another thing that just crossed my mind... the parallels between Rayleigh and Zoro can't just be ignored, but what about the titles? Rayleighs is called 'The Dark King'/Hades King (or something like that XDD), Zoro is still called 'Pirate Hunter'... I think that he will get a namechange later on, something like 'Demon King'/'Demon God' :smile-big. There are plenty of hints in the whole OP story so far (right at the beginning his 'aura', then in Skypiea the referrence to 'God' and Zoro saying that he doesn't believe in any God while Chopper (dunno if it was really him) said something about Zoro being something like a God... then his Asuraform (Asura = godlike) and Kaku saying something like he looks like a 'fierce god' ect. ...).

That would be too anticlimatic if Zoro would end up at the hospital. IMO he should stay separated from the SH.

I think that Zoro's dissappearance could be a opportunity to show the SH that they need to get stronger and that they all need each other to accomplish their goals if they want to survive in the New World.

I agree with you on that one... Zoro the Demon God sounds good to me xD.

[Super Angillis]

....... I never said that Kuma's there to fight Rayleigh. I said that they sent Kuma as their messenger, since he can travel instantaneously. You said that the fact that Kuma is on the island poses serious questions about the WB battle, but it really doesn't. When Luffy first punched the Tenryuu, there was a meeting of the admirals. Sengoku talked about how troublesome this was; he was probably referring to the fact that seeing as the marines have to worry about WB, they didn't have the time to send an admiral to capture the SH crew. Kizaru also mentioned how unexpectedly troublesome this was; he kept running into more obstacles on the Archipelago. Sentou also said that Kizaru was taking way too long. Therefore, my theory is that the WG sent Kuma to tell Kizaru to get back to Marine HQ to fight the WB pirates; Kuma can travel instantly, so even if they're fighting WB RIGHT NOW, sending Kuma would be the smartest thing to do, since he can be there and back in two seconds.

Yep, that's what I figured. Incedentilly I don't think that we'll see Shanks helping Whitebeard in this assualt. Judging from what we've seen, Whitebeard is very prould and would be increadibly insulted if Shanks even suggested doing that. So I figure that the WB Pirates will be launching that attack by themselves. However Shanks might just take advantage of this to raise trouble somewhere else, and the other Yonkou might make grabs as well in other parts of the world.

[gold349]

....... I never said that Kuma's there to fight Rayleigh. I said that they sent Kuma as their messenger, since he can travel instantaneously. You said that the fact that Kuma is on the island poses serious questions about the WB battle, but it really doesn't. When Luffy first punched the Tenryuu, there was a meeting of the admirals. Sengoku talked about how troublesome this was; he was probably referring to the fact that seeing as the marines have to worry about WB, they didn't have the time to send an admiral to capture the SH crew. Kizaru also mentioned how unexpectedly troublesome this was; he kept running into more obstacles on the Archipelago. Sentou also said that Kizaru was taking way too long. Therefore, my theory is that the WG sent Kuma to tell Kizaru to get back to Marine HQ to fight the WB pirates; Kuma can travel instantly, so even if they're fighting WB RIGHT NOW, sending Kuma would be the smartest thing to do, since he can be there and back in two seconds.


I think that Kizaru leaving is next to Nil, Kuma showing up is mystery but I doubt that now that Kizaru is on shabondy he will leave not settling this teryubito affair, he himself has said the the marines will lose face if he doesn't apprehend the offenders.

Kuma transporting Zoro, if he has done it to protect Zoro (which looks to me very likely) as he could have finished him off on the spot, will make him a traitor as far as WG is concerned, I mean firstly he leaves them alive when he was given orders to kill all on TB, protecting Zoro/pirates will make him traitor for sure, this, if to be the case then Kuma may have come here not on orders from WG but himself (or somebody else, not mentioning Dragons name*cough*). Next chapter should answer these questions, I could be wrong and he has sent Zoro to WG head quarters and will fight the remaining SH's and also transport them to WG head quarters for further punishment and interrogation. Anyway those are the 2 scenario I think off, will Kuma be good and fight for SH's or has also come to join in and fight against them, who knows we will see.

[dsr]

@k-dom
the vivre card is set on Rayleigh, not on Zoro.
Then anyway, Zoro is able to get lost in the Sunny.
Having him able to track someone would be a DAMN HUGE power-up :p

[fah]

i was thinking that kuma could take the messenger line and say that kizaru has been recalled and the marines wont lose face because two of the three offenders were captured ie the other captains which would allow for sh to escape as there is a scapegoat there as well as taking in all those supernovas.

[Andonan]

Moria said once that he "knows about Kuma's abilities" when Kuma asked him the same question.... He said it in a sarcastic yet sort of dulling amused sort of fashion..... I still can't tell whether Kuma's question is suppose to be a threat or genuine though, I'm so confused LOL

[Mythsoul]

very interesting....I wonder where did Kuma take Zoro....and everyone seems to be on their last breathe....I wonder how things will shape up next chapter

[Onomatopoeia]

Their seems to be only a few possibilities for where Zoro is going.

1.Going Merry
2. Hospital
3. Impel Down.
4. Other Marine Place
5. Fisherman Island(Jimbei could be friends with Kuma)


For those who think he's going to fight Mihawk look at it like this, Mihawk could still destroy Zoro at full health if he can spar with a Yonkou. Zoro is at best 1/4 of his normal strength do you really want to see that?

[k-dom]

@k-dom
the vivre card is set on Rayleigh, not on Zoro.
Then anyway, Zoro is able to get lost in the Sunny.
Having him able to track someone would be a DAMN HUGE power-up :p

He said he could do it and I think he can manage going straight.

[Superman]

very interesting....I wonder where did Kuma take Zoro....and everyone seems to be on their last breathe....I wonder how things will shape up next chapter

Dragon shows up.
What else could be.
There are Px1, Kuma and Sento. Kizaru could handle alone 4 or 5 (in good shape) supernovas so it would be even in the fiction unrealistic if SHs can escape in their shape and situation.

[tobz]

nah there getting captured and they meet ace and escape.... that is my prediction. i think it would fit :P

[The Adamant Dragon]

Definitly an awsom chapter. Yeah it definitly looks like SH are done for... though I wouldn't underestimate them. To say the truth, they've been through worse. Right now Raighly already got his hands full with Kizuru, so its up to Luffy and Chopper to save the day...

My Prediction: Kuma will probably leave the battle scene because he did what he came to do... I don't think he's got any interest to Capture the SHs. He just came to finish his bargain/deal with Zoro. Luffy will be shocked about what happened to Zoro, he'll probably go all out and find the strengh to fight again. Him and chopper will fight PX1 and Sentamouru, while luffy orders the rest of the crew to Run.

Oda is the best! I can't wait for the next chapter.

[k-dom]

My Prediction: Kuma will probably leave the battle scene because he did what he came to do... I don't think he's got any interest to Capture the SHs. He just came to finish his bargain/deal with Zoro.

The bargain was to Zoro to take all the pain and fatigue from Luffy. He did it
For me, there is nothing to finish

[bax]

nah there getting captured and they meet ace and escape.... that is my prediction. i think it would fit :P


Nah, I don't think all of them will be captured. Luffy would probably escape. If I were to say, Zoro's capture is probably just a link the story needs to merge the current plot with Ace's execution.

Well, yeah, not really a good prediction (not that most of us can predict what Oda has in store every week, he always came up with surprises :XD), but that's just me :p

[Mr.Popo]

Their seems to be only a few possibilities for where Zoro is going.

1.Going Merry
2. Hospital
3. Impel Down.
4. Other Marine Place
5. Fisherman Island(Jimbei could be friends with Kuma)
It depends on who decided the target.
If it where Kuma, than i think all the places you listed are a possibility.
If Zorro decided, than none of them. Zorro has only one prime objective right now and that is the safety of his friends. In his current state being a bait for his friends is the most he can do.


Zoro is at best 1/4 of his normal strength do you really want to see that?How weak do you think Zorro is? 1/4! Zorros strength is near zero. On Alabasta he was able to lift a house, something i can't even think of when i'm at full strength. And he is even stronger now. So i would say 1/40 is a better estimation i think.

[Marvstar]

well he could be here to tell Kizaru that he needs to head back to fight the WB pirates. The WG could have sent him, since he CAN teleport instantly, and therefore is probably their fastest messenger; they did send him to talk to Moria, as well, after all. Him teleporting Zoro could've been completely out of his own agenda to help him out; Kuma does seem to have a sense of honor, after all. However, I do believe that he was sent by the WG; he has no reason to show up otherwise. How else would he get word that the SH crew was on the Shabondy Archipelago, and even if he just assumed they were there, why would he have gone to help them unless he knew they were in trouble? I believe that helping the SH crew (if that's what he's actually doing), is NOT his main agenda. He never had that close of a bond with them to start with; he just decided not to murder them all.

If he was here to tell Kizaru and PX-1 to retreat and teleport them back, what would be the purpose of teleporting Zoro? Kuma must have plans for him, maybe to cultivate his strength or even to use him for something. Otherwise he could just leave him with his nakama after telling his guys to retreat.

The most plausible excuse I can think of is that since there is no time to defeat the SH crew, he plans to use Zoro as a hostage. But even with that, why would he say those words? "Where would you like to go?".

Though Kuma seems to give off the aura of someone who has sense of honour and justice, he is still working for WG! :(

[sharingan_kakashi]

If he was here to tell Kizaru and PX-1 to retreat and teleport them back, what would be the purpose of teleporting Zoro? Kuma must have plans for him, maybe to cultivate his strength or even to use him for something. Otherwise he could just leave him with his nakama after telling his guys to retreat.

The most plausible excuse I can think of is that since there is no time to defeat the SH crew, he plans to use Zoro as a hostage. But even with that, why would he say those words? "Where would you like to go?".

Though Kuma seems to give off the aura of someone who has sense of honour and justice, he is still working for WG! :(
Very well said. You explained that better than anyone i've read so far. Though I disagree with the keeping Zoro hostage part.

In the middle of the chapter Sentoumaru said that the best they can hope for for now is to capture Zoro and he sent PX1. But at that time the real Kuma intervened and took Zoro. I really don't think Kuma was following Sentoumaru's instructions, he was following someone's instructions, who it is I do not know.

@Garp. where the fuck is that guy. I keep expecting him to appear ever since he said he was coming to the auction house but never did. Maybe he is playing behind the scenes and was the one who sent Rayleigh after Kizaru.

[mr.danly]

If he was here to tell Kizaru and PX-1 to retreat and teleport them back, what would be the purpose of teleporting Zoro? Kuma must have plans for him, maybe to cultivate his strength or even to use him for something. Otherwise he could just leave him with his nakama after telling his guys to retreat.

The most plausible excuse I can think of is that since there is no time to defeat the SH crew, he plans to use Zoro as a hostage. But even with that, why would he say those words? "Where would you like to go?".

Though Kuma seems to give off the aura of someone who has sense of honour and justice, he is still working for WG! :(

Well like I said, him telling Kizaru to come back to Marine HQ could be his main objective, and then he sees that Zoro's about to get killed, so he helps him out, since he seems to show at least SOME interest in him. After all, he knows that Zoro had a very close encounter to death, and he might want to see how Zoro turns out as a pirate, and therefore saved him. Once again, saving Zoro was most likely NOT his main objective.

[Mr.Popo]

Though Kuma seems to give off the aura of someone who has sense of honour and justice, he is still working for WG! :(
Why do so many people think that the WG is evil?
I agree that they have sometimes a strange perception of justice and even do bad things, but for most people in OP world they are the good, especially because they maintain peace and protect the civilians against the pirates.



@Garp. where the fuck is that guy. I keep expecting him to appear ever since he said he was coming to the auction house but never did. Maybe he is playing behind the scenes and was the one who sent Rayleigh after Kizaru.
Look again (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/501/02/), he never said he would come to Shabondy, only that he would handle it, whatever that may mean.

[EPG Vengeance]

My prediction is That Zoro was actually sent to Impel Down and that Luffy will also get captured and sent there..I mean in the last arc Zoro realized that he needs to get stronger for luffy not to take on so much stress and not have to fight with all that he has .and ..now with the SH 2 best fighters captured its time for the rest of the grew to stand up
[hr]
Also luffy might sacrifice him self so his crew can get away and thats how he probably gets capured so hi prolly tell ray to help them escape and take them somewhere safe and to coat the ship

[sharingan_kakashi]

Look again (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/501/02/), he never said he would come to Shabondy, only that he would handle it, whatever that may mean.
Usually, when people said they will handle it, it means they will personally take care of the matter.
well now im confused, If he was going to send someone it can't have been Kuma since he took Zoro away instead and will probably vanish in the next chapter.
Or maybe he is just planning on sitting on his hands and do nothing.
WTH

[mr.danly]

Why do so many people think that the WG is evil?
I agree that they have sometimes a strange perception of justice and even do bad things, but for most people in OP world they are the good, especially because they maintain peace and protect the civilians against the pirates.



Look again (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/501/02/), he never said he would come to Shabondy, only that he would handle it, whatever that may mean.

Because they've done unspeakable deeds in the "lost history", and are willing to do anything to cover it up, including murdering in cold blood an entire island of peaceful scholars.

[gold349]

Because they've done unspeakable deeds in the "lost history", and are willing to do anything to cover it up, including murdering in cold blood an entire island of peaceful scholars.

agreed, they have killed more innocent people then captured/killed pirates. There whole way of thinking, their justice stinks to put it nicely.

[bittman]

And all the pirates are angels sent from heaven. Specially that lovely Arlong bloke. The point is, Marines aren't evil (hi Coby) and the WG isn't evil (hi Drum empire + Alabasta. Oh wait, forgot it was a united nation of states and not 5 old guys didn't we?). Yeah, old guys are evil.

Most manga's like to have some sort of murky line between good and evil, One Piece is only really starting to bring it out a bit better lately (unless you think Moria is evil instead of misguided).