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KaNx
June 13, 2008, 03:51 AM
Bleach -98 is out! Get it in the RTS (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32956)!!

Check it out, discuss and predict away!

gfire2
June 13, 2008, 04:02 AM
awesome chapter, finalli bleach is picking up its pace

anonym9191
June 13, 2008, 04:03 AM
I had not expected that Urahara already had created the Hougyoku that time.
So they seem to become Vizzard that way and that explains why Aizen's experiment failed (probably they would have died otherwise or something like this).
I wonder how many more flashback chapters there will be.
I guess one or two. I hope he will explain how Aizen got away exactly. I wonder how much we will get to see about the Hougyoku's use, especially what happened afterwards (I wonder if we get to see a bit from those fights against the inner hollows).

natli
June 13, 2008, 04:03 AM
This chapter only confirms: Urahara is the man. I hope he will be the one to kill Aizen.

Gold Knight
June 13, 2008, 04:04 AM
The latest chapter gave me a baaaaaad feeling about Tessai. Dare I say that Tessai is with Aizen now?

seya
June 13, 2008, 04:13 AM
Are you saying this because aizen draw his sword while tessai was looking?
it's plausible

Darek Khort
June 13, 2008, 04:34 AM
Nice chapter.
I have a feeling that last move by Aizen was similar to his 'hiding' technique. I reckon he'll hear word of the Hougyoku and realise what his experiments were missing. When though? I don't really know...
If it was during this Gaiden then you'd expect Aizen to simply attempt to overpower Urahara and take the Hougyoku. Doea Aizen find out later after Urahara is banished? Or does Aizen realise the perhaps potential of Urahara (or even the power) and decided it would be safer to convince SS to kick Urahara out so he can begin his 100 years of searching for the Hougyoku.
Urahara wins this chapter.
Now we also know why Tessai will be banished. He used two forbidden techniques.

And yes, they will find out. The loss of reaitsu from all those captain/vice- is going to attract other people from SS. They'll probably arrive to see a slab of Earth 'gone' which is the slab that is now in 12th Division Lab.

godofthesunn
June 13, 2008, 04:47 AM
The latest chapter gave me a baaaaaad feeling about Tessai. Dare I say that Tessai is with Aizen now?

wut were you looking at buddy.. i didnt get that impression at all

now we just need to know how the hogokyou works and the gaiden will finish up nicely

EvolutionIX
June 13, 2008, 05:04 AM
The latest chapter gave me a baaaaaad feeling about Tessai. Dare I say that Tessai is with Aizen now?

Explain please?

Umbra Wolf
June 13, 2008, 05:22 AM
Very good chapter, everything is close to come full circle.

Toussen puzzled me: "Should I take care fo them?"
That's being said by the "Zaraki cut me nearly in half" Tousen 100 years before Kenpachi beat him up. So we can assume even concerning Tousen there is far more than meets the eye.

hyn_pride93
June 13, 2008, 05:29 AM
okay not only am I agreeing a little to what Gold Knight is saying but this chapter was pretty good. Not mind blowing. But pretty good. We did get to see some action with all of the kidou and then when Urahara brought out the hougyoku, a shiver ran down my spine. Because now we're gonna get to see the real creator use it the real way its supposed to be used.

Ok... Here's why I agree with GK... A LITTLE ( which means in this case: a really small speck of my being):

For one, we saw Aizen start to draw his sword. And knowing him, he probably casted his hypnosis over Urahara. BUT!--> there's a bug flaw in that. We don't know who started to draw their sword. It cudve been any one of them. But here's the thing... I want to know how. HOW DID AIZEN KNOW THAT URAHARA KISUKE HID THE HOUGYOKU IN A GIGAI, WHICH SO IRONICLY HAPPENED TO BE THE ONE THAT RUKIA USED WHEN SHE WENT TO KARAKURA TOWN!? If Tessai really is in league with him, then that would explain why Aizen was able to find out the whereabouts of the hougyoku.

That was my agreeing with GK. Here's my big disagreement:
Tessai and Urahara have been really good freinds since from the time that they were kids. Why would tessai turn on him AND yoruichi? Sothats why I don't think tessai would join up with aizen.

Starzen
June 13, 2008, 05:31 AM
nah I'll say that he is full of himself. now we can finally get to the end of all this.

hyn_pride93
June 13, 2008, 05:40 AM
^ who do you mean by that? Are u talking about Urahara O.o sorry. A bit confooosed

hot_chips
June 13, 2008, 05:56 AM
This chapter only confirms: Urahara is the man. I hope he will be the one to kill Aizen.
I think Aizen meant it in the context he is the man, suiting to be framed of the hollowfication of the future vizards.
This meaning Aizen points the finger at Urahara to avoid banishment from SS.

walkie
June 13, 2008, 06:21 AM
I think Aizen meant it in the context he is the man, suiting to be framed of the hollowfication of the future vizards.
This meaning Aizen points the finger at Urahara to avoid banishment from SS.

i dont think aizen will do something against urahara..it will be suspicious. if urahara says aizen is guilty, he has no proof and some of our captain saw?!? aizen while this incident, plus hougyoku is something forbidden...at this time urahara has nothing to do or let his friends die and keeps the secret of hougyoku, he will become guilty because no other choice he has, aizen doesnt need to frame him...

bighawke5
June 13, 2008, 06:42 AM
okay not only am I agreeing a little to what Gold Knight is saying but this chapter was pretty good. Not mind blowing. But pretty good. We did get to see some action with all of the kidou and then when Urahara brought out the hougyoku, a shiver ran down my spine. Because now we're gonna get to see the real creator use it the real way its supposed to be used.

Ok... Here's why I agree with GK... A LITTLE ( which means in this case: a really small speck of my being):

For one, we saw Aizen start to draw his sword. And knowing him, he probably casted his hypnosis over Urahara. BUT!--> there's a bug flaw in that. We don't know who started to draw their sword. It cudve been any one of them. But here's the thing... I want to know how. HOW DID AIZEN KNOW THAT URAHARA KISUKE HID THE HOUGYOKU IN A GIGAI, WHICH SO IRONICLY HAPPENED TO BE THE ONE THAT RUKIA USED WHEN SHE WENT TO KARAKURA TOWN!? If Tessai really is in league with him, then that would explain why Aizen was able to find out the whereabouts of the hougyoku.

That was my agreeing with GK. Here's my big disagreement:
Tessai and Urahara have been really good freinds since from the time that they were kids. Why would tessai turn on him AND yoruichi? Sothats why I don't think tessai would join up with aizen.

aizen wasnt drawing out his sword, he was putting it back on his hip..he had it out since the moment urahara attacked and even when they were talkin he still had it in his hand(check pg 7 at the top the middle picture with aizen and sword is out in his hand) so when Aizen said "you're just the sort of man i tought you were" he just put the sword he had in his hand back to its place(pg 9 as you can see the sword returned to his side..)

i dont understand how you come up with the possibility that tessei might be a traitor...but if you base it on the drawing his sword part then i guess i explained it then

natli
June 13, 2008, 07:33 AM
I think Aizen meant it in the context he is the man, suiting to be framed of the hollowfication of the future vizards.
This meaning Aizen points the finger at Urahara to avoid banishment from SS.

I wasn't refering to what Aizen said :D

Tendou88
June 13, 2008, 07:37 AM
I want to see something new in the next gaiden chapter because this was too predictable.

patedecarne
June 13, 2008, 07:50 AM
IN an overall, the chapter was pretty good, but the only issue I have is with Aizen: he's too overpowered in that time, even Urahara was scared with his reiatsu;

Good to see another hadou, and a high level one. probably Tessai would be able to take Aizen down if he were to use Hadous above level 90;

The hougyoku was smewhat expected to be showed in the gaiden, then I'm not dissapointed with it, and the cliffhanger was hellish;

I don't know why, but I have the feeling that Aizen took the hollowfication idea from Urahara, thus, Urahara was really the key to everything that happened; and add to this that still we don't know how exactly was the hollow process, and how it took Shinji and co. and not Urahara and Tessai, given the fact all of them were in the crime scene;

And a last thing: I'm 100% totally sure the biggest twist will happen in the upcoming chapters, something we aren't prepared, trust me, a great twist as we never seen before in bleach...

hajialibaig
June 13, 2008, 08:17 AM
An okay chapter... Seems like even Urahara got his pants wet when Aizen released his reiatsu...I saw that coming a long way back..and yea, we still don't know how aizen was able to turn those people into dying hollows

ryanzokuken
June 13, 2008, 08:20 AM
what are you guys talking about with the "Aizen drew his sword" stuff?

the shot showing Aizen's sword hilt was him putting it away as he and Tousen and Gin walked away. not pulling it out.

Narrik
June 13, 2008, 08:25 AM
Well i think this chapter was failure...Not for me but for those who have believed there will be an interesting fight between urahara and aizen....but wasn't....>.>
anyway I think kubo is misusing word "forbiden"...forbiden doesn't mean imposible...
even if it's forbiden it should be somehow explained how the f*ck he was able to transport them with ground on which they were lying and puttin it on flor without destroying anything....but anyway still like bleach*_*

poobert
June 13, 2008, 08:46 AM
Interesting chapter. But if urahara has already made the hougyoku, when does Aizen discover it's existence and if he already knows, where does Urahara hide it for the next 100 years?

I think little back story on Aizen is also in order. How does an entry level shinigami learn all these kick ass spells without someone to teach him. I suggest he was an acquaintance of daddy ichigo, and they learned some stuff together. I suggest this because those two seem to be the first to mention "limits" of their ability. Perhaps they investigated this together.

lordHokage
June 13, 2008, 09:14 AM
what are you guys talking about with the "Aizen drew his sword" stuff?

the shot showing Aizen's sword hilt was him putting it away as he and Tousen and Gin walked away. not pulling it out.


I agree with you that Aizen sword was out long before Urahara and Tessai arrived and he was only putting it away. I think the moment when Urahara mentioned hollow transformation, Aizen saw a scapegoat. :blink

falizzle
June 13, 2008, 09:35 AM
I disagree with everyone. I don't think Kisuke was scared at all when Aizen released his reitsu, the only thing i thought was that it surprised him. Like that's a lot of reitsu for Aizens seat. Scared though, i don't think so.

Also I don't think Tousen is as that strong. The reason Aizen stopped him from attacking is because I think he knew Tousen would be killed immediately. Now the person I'm still suspicious about is Gin, Shinji, Ichigo's dad, and Kisuke. The relationship between Shinji and Kisuke in this last chapter shows me something is hidden between them. Gin was chosen as a kid by Aizen, and never has shown his true strenght and never is bothered by anything. I thinks he's far stronger then people think. I think Ichigo's dad is on the level with Kisuke and Aizen. (I think Kisuke is on par with Aizen)

uchihaj
June 13, 2008, 09:52 AM
The latest chapter gave me a baaaaaad feeling about Tessai. Dare I say that Tessai is with Aizen now?

Are you thinking it was weird for Tessai's kidou chant to be so easily stopped, and for him to be so willing to hurry and get the captains to a place where they could be completed. I understand that he stated that was his first time even hearing of hollowfication, but if this is the case, I can see where you got it from. I can't say that I was suspicious, but with a little more reason, I could be...

craig
June 13, 2008, 10:02 AM
Good chapter. I'm pretty sure this is the end of the Gaiden and next week we'll get back to Yamamoto / Aizen. It seems like Kubo wanted to establish relations and power levels, as well as a little backstory on the hougyoku (sp?) which at this point he's done.

Starzen
June 13, 2008, 10:17 AM
we are still missing isshin, how does he fit into all this mess unless next week kubu explains his part in the next chapter.

Gold Knight
June 13, 2008, 10:45 AM
Sorry for not explaining more fully earlier. I just have a bad feeling that's all. It seemed too convenient that Tessai immediately asked Urahara to work with the soon-to-be-Vizards, almost seeming to put Aizen's plans in fruition. After all, Aizen predicted correctly that Urahara was the kind of guy who would have already experimented with hollowification and he just gave him a few subjects to work with, right? Tessai seemed too eager to have him start his work.

Yes, Tessai and Urahara have been friends since childhood, but then, Komamura thought he knew Tousen, too. Aizen seems to thrive the most on the "most vicious betrayals... the ones you don't see," right?

Not to mention who could have taught Aizen all these deadly hakou attacks anyway, if he didn't have a good teacher?

And it didn't help that Urahara was surprised by Tessai, as if he was acting very unlike himself... or maybe he didn't expect Tessai to be so gung-ho in that situation, as if Tessai knew something Urahara didn't, or was it perhaps he was just over-acting in that he was trying to look like the good guy there?

Just my gut feeling right now. Let's hope I'm wrong, though.

gigantor21
June 13, 2008, 10:53 AM
^ I don't know if that's indicative of Tessai being a conspirator, though. To begin with, we didn't know much about him until now, and anyone would want to act swiftly in that situation. Hachi was with them, after all. Tessai's wanting to help didn't sound any alarms for me.

munafn
June 13, 2008, 10:57 AM
Interesting theory about Tessai teaching Aizen Kidou. Seems a little unlikely though. Also possible that Aizen could have had another teacher. I mean just because Tessai is the captain of the kidou corps doesnt mean no one else in SS cant use high level kidou rite?

Gold Knight
June 13, 2008, 11:09 AM
^ I don't know if that's indicative of Tessai being a conspirator, though. To begin with, we didn't know much about him until now, and anyone would want to act swiftly in that situation. Hachi was with them, after all. Tessai's wanting to help didn't sound any alarms for me.

That we don't know that much about Tessai is a good indicator that we should remain wary of him. Basically we just know that he's Urahara's assistant, he likes to sleep on top of Ichigo, and he knows some nasty kidou's. And now we know he's the ex-captain of the Kidou Corps. But that's all.

Tite Kubo just seemed to drop a few too many hints in this chapter about Tessai's character for me not to ignore the possibility.

And right, munafn, and it's also likely that Aizen might just have self-taught himself kidous. But even so, he had to have some source for knowing a forbidden technique.

lordHokage
June 13, 2008, 11:12 AM
I disagree with everyone. I don't think Kisuke was scared at all when Aizen released his reitsu, the only thing i thought was that it surprised him. Like that's a lot of reitsu for Aizens seat. Scared though, i don't think so.

Also I don't think Tousen is as that strong. The reason Aizen stopped him from attacking is because I think he knew Tousen would be killed immediately. Now the person I'm still suspicious about is Gin, Shinji, Ichigo's dad, and Kisuke. The relationship between Shinji and Kisuke in this last chapter shows me something is hidden between them. Gin was chosen as a kid by Aizen, and never has shown his true strenght and never is bothered by anything. I thinks he's far stronger then people think. I think Ichigo's dad is on the level with Kisuke and Aizen. (I think Kisuke is on par with Aizen)


I was with you until you mentioned Ichigo's dad, Kisuke and Aizen power levels. I think Gin is not only stronger than Aizen but he’s not afraid of him but Tousen is. I don’t think Aizen is on the level with Kisuke and as for Ichigo’s dad, he's one powerful dude. :D

munafn
June 13, 2008, 11:26 AM
Basically we just know that he's Urahara's assistant, he likes to sleep on top of Ichigo, and he knows some nasty kidou's..

Lol i think thats the funniest thing ive heard in a while..One thing that did concern me was Byakuya's granpappy. Obviously he doesnt exist in the current era. Im guessing he was killed since obviously they have long natural lives in SS and he didnt look sick or anything.Maybe we might get to see if something happens with him next chapter.

lordHokage
June 13, 2008, 12:00 PM
I just have a bad feeling that's all. It seemed too convenient that Tessai immediately asked Urahara to work with the soon-to-be-Vizards, almost seeming to put Aizen's plans in fruition. After all, Aizen predicted correctly that Urahara was the kind of guy who would have already experimented with hollowification and he just gave him a few subjects to work with, right? Tessai seemed too eager to have him start his work.

Yes, Tessai and Urahara have been friends since childhood, but then, Komamura thought he knew Tousen, too. Aizen seems to thrive the most on the "most vicious betrayals... the ones you don't see," right?

Not to mention who could have taught Aizen all these deadly hakou attacks anyway, if he didn't have a good teacher?

And it didn't help that Urahara was surprised by Tessai, as if he was acting very unlike himself... or maybe he didn't expect Tessai to be so gung-ho in that situation, as if Tessai knew something Urahara didn't, or was it perhaps he was just over-acting in that he was trying to look like the good guy there?

Just my gut feeling right now. Let's hope I'm wrong, though.


GK, you maybe on to something but I’m not sure whether I agree or disagree with you. Urahara is very secretive and I don’t think he share all of his thoughts with Tessai who may or maybe Aizen’s spy and if he knows about it, he has done a good job so far in keeping Tessai in the dark. :blink

jehonleonce
June 13, 2008, 12:09 PM
so anyone else notice that in Matsumoto's flashback of her and gin travelling together, before they joined the gotenki 13, that gin was alot older, and now he's a kid already in the gotenki. Obvious screw up by mr. tite.

Awesome chapter, its crazy just how powerful aizen is. This chapter I think showed that he is clearly more powerful than kisuke. I also think that this chapter clued us to kisuke being a vizard himself, from his little exchange with hirako and aizen.

Gin is so awesome, nothing seems to bother him. Just from his whole demeanor and attitude, I would say that he is a force to reckon with, really can't wait to see him in action.

Why is tessai referring to kisuke as dono? Why is kaname so hungry to slice ppl up and such a little bitch? I guess this chapter showed that everyone of these characters have their dirty little secrets. Such a mysterious bunch, I love it.

segua
June 13, 2008, 12:38 PM
Kaname seemed to be very strong. In fact, this chapter gave off an impression that the men with Aizen are a force to be reckoned with. It seems that the one to be doing all the dirty work that night was Kaname. And what is up with that shield on his face?

I'm sure that after this incident, Aizen purposely reported and slandered Urahara. Yamato might've sent people to investigate whether or not the claims Aizen proposed were true or not and certainly, Urahara was caught seemingly doing something illegal. Though in reality, Aizen set Urahara up for the fall. Just speculating but can't wait to see how things turn out next week.

Devil-buster
June 13, 2008, 12:38 PM
I was with you until you mentioned Ichigo's dad, Kisuke and Aizen power levels. I think Gin is not only stronger than Aizen but he’s not afraid of him but Tousen is. I don’t think Aizen is on the level with Kisuke and as for Ichigo’s dad, he's one powerful dude. :D

I dont really think Gin is more powerful than Aizen...Gin had a tough time dealing with hitsugaya who aizen defeated with one blow.....Also aizen's reiatsu is on a level equaling or exceeding yamamoto's.....I mean it was enough to stun Urahara who is a pretty powerful captain himself....Gin acts that was all the time...to prevent his enemies from realizing his emotions...but I think he is pretty scared inside....remember what Kenpachi said...he said in the beginning of the SS arc that Gin and Tousen are the only 2 captains afraid of dying....and Kenpachi is never wrong in reading instincts...

segua
June 13, 2008, 01:06 PM
If Aizen was trying to reach the pinnacle of power, I'm sure he must've done something to his body or augment his body to allow him to "peak out." Although it seems that Aizen has yet to reach the pinnacle of spiritual supremacy.

I think Gin is just putting up a front. Guys like Gin are pretty weak or unstable on the inside but no one knows. Smiling is probably Gin's way of expressing uncertainty or so. But heck, I could be damn wrong.

lordHokage
June 13, 2008, 01:18 PM
I dont really think Gin is more powerful than Aizen...Gin had a tough time dealing with hitsugaya who aizen defeated with one blow.....Also aizen's reiatsu is on a level equaling or exceeding yamamoto's.....I mean it was enough to stun Urahara who is a pretty powerful captain himself....Gin acts that was all the time...to prevent his enemies from realizing his emotions...but I think he is pretty scared inside....remember what Kenpachi said...he said in the beginning of the SS arc that Gin and Tousen are the only 2 captains afraid of dying....and Kenpachi is never wrong in reading instincts...


I don't believe that Aizen's reiatsu exceeds General Yamamoto-Genryūsai level, that wishful thinking. Aizen is strong enough to use dirty tricks to suit his needs. :blink

darkband
June 13, 2008, 02:42 PM
Kaname seemed to be very strong. In fact, this chapter gave off an impression that the men with Aizen are a force to be reckoned with. It seems that the one to be doing all the dirty work that night was Kaname. And what is up with that shield on his face?

I'm sure that after this incident, Aizen purposely reported and slandered Urahara. Yamato might've sent people to investigate whether or not the claims Aizen proposed were true or not and certainly, Urahara was caught seemingly doing something illegal. Though in reality, Aizen set Urahara up for the fall. Just speculating but can't wait to see how things turn out next week.

Yes Tousen was doing all the dirty work, but that doesn't necessarily make him very strong. All it means really is that he is effective at killing. He only has to have the reiatsu and resolve to be able to pierce them. At this point I think that he just has to be at a higher vice captain level, able to injure a captain, and with his Bankai a single effective stab from behind was enough to take out his targets. Afterall, if he hadn't toyed around with Kenpachi, and just taken him out on the first shot with a fatal strike, he probably would have won. Because of his Bankai, he only has to be able to cut them to own them. His actual skills may be limited except for his extremely cheap Bankai.

At this point we only know how strong Gin is by that nine years ago he killed a third seat, who may or may not have been very strong. As for aizen, it's my opinion that Urahara was more surprised than scared. Surprised that aizen had Captain level reiatsu and skills. I think its pretty obvious by now that Urahara is the fall guy Aizen uses to escape blame. How he does that is still anyones guess though.

Kastro187420
June 13, 2008, 03:02 PM
I'm with the people who think Urahara was more Surprised than scared. Gin's power seems to be unknown, and I think Gin likes it like that. Remember that when Gin was fighting Hitsugaya, he shattered Hitsugaya's Shikai with his zanpakuto in its sealed form, without much effort, and nearly one-shotted Hitsugaya (he barely dodged the shot in time, and his shikai alone almost broke Matsumoto's sword).

And then he paralyzed everyone on Soukyoku-hill with his spiritual pressure alone. Gin is difficult to place for me though, but definitely someone you can see being stronger than your average captain.

Tousen, I don't really see being that strong. Nothing he's done thus far has been supportive of him being strong. The only thing he did that was remotely impressive, was sliced off Grimmjow's Arm. But since we didn't see them fight it out, we don't know if he was just lucky, or if he really is stronger than Grimmjow.

Tessai seems too loyal to be a traitor, and regardless of his actions in the Gaiden, so far, he doesn't strike me as anyone suspicious. I'm most interested in seeing how Aizen explains away all these incidents. I do believe he sets up Urahara to take the fall, but after Urahara saves all the Vizard, I really have to wonder what stops them from giving Aizen away. I'm sure Soul Society wouldn't outright banish them, at least not without first giving them a moment to explain what happened.

Not to mention, if they believe Urahara did all this without their knowledge, then they would seem like Victims, and not conspirators, and thus would be given even more of a chance to explain the situation.

So it will be interesting to see how this plays out. The only thing I can think of, to keep the Vizard all quiet, is for Aizen to cast his Hypnosis on everyone, to make them think the Vizard are all dead right now, and not be able to see or hear them, so that they can't give him away. Then all thats left, is to somehow shut up Urahara and Tessai.

toussaintac
June 13, 2008, 03:59 PM
WAIT...Tessai is the same muscular dude back at Urahara's shop, right? LMAO...I can't believe I didn't realize that until now. One of the posts above made me remember the guy from the shop and then I realized he looks the same...WOW...very late. Hopefully I'm not the only one. I guess it was because we didn't really see much of him.

poobert
June 13, 2008, 04:08 PM
I'm with the people who think Urahara was more Surprised than scared. Gin's power seems to be unknown, and I think Gin likes it like that. Remember that when Gin was fighting Hitsugaya, he shattered Hitsugaya's Shikai with his zanpakuto in its sealed form, without much effort, and nearly one-shotted Hitsugaya (he barely dodged the shot in time, and his shikai alone almost broke Matsumoto's sword).


Second! But I dont remember him shattering Hitsugaya's Shikai, just nearly poking him in the eye. Gin is supposed to be a genius, so he must be better than average captains by now.

Tousen on the other hand is only good for his cheap bankai. If he was in the mood to kill, it would be pretty easy for him to kill someone who has not experienced his bankai before. It is pretty much the same as Aizens shikai but stops short at recreating the senses.

hyn_pride93
June 13, 2008, 04:13 PM
@toussaintac^_^LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!! dude you're so late. but its okay. I keep forgeting that Tessai is the big strong muscular guy. so when i forget that I think that Ryuuken (ishida's dad) is the one in the shop. so all i do is mix the names up.

but anyways, I dont think that Tessai could be a traitor. I came up with the theory on how he could be a traitor, but then I made another on how he wouldnt be. so theres a 99.9% chance that Tessai isnt a traitor. and theres 1% chance that he is

toussaintac
June 13, 2008, 04:26 PM
@toussaintac^_^LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!! dude you're so late. but its okay. I keep forgeting that Tessai is the big strong muscular guy. so when i forget that I think that Ryuuken (ishida's dad) is the one in the shop. so all i do is mix the names up.

but anyways, I dont think that Tessai could be a traitor. I came up with the theory on how he could be a traitor, but then I made another on how he wouldnt be. so theres a 99.9% chance that Tessai isnt a traitor. and theres 1% chance that he is

LOL...That puts you at 100.9%

lordHokage
June 13, 2008, 04:29 PM
I'm with the people who think Urahara was more Surprised than scared. Gin's power seems to be unknown, and I think Gin likes it like that. Remember that when Gin was fighting Hitsugaya, he shattered Hitsugaya's Shikai with his zanpakuto in its sealed form, without much effort, and nearly one-shotted Hitsugaya (he barely dodged the shot in time, and his shikai alone almost broke Matsumoto's sword).

And then he paralyzed everyone on Soukyoku-hill with his spiritual pressure alone. Gin is difficult to place for me though, but definitely someone you can see being stronger than your average captain.

Tousen, I don't really see being that strong. Nothing he's done thus far has been supportive of him being strong. The only thing he did that was remotely impressive, was sliced off Grimmjow's Arm. But since we didn't see them fight it out, we don't know if he was just lucky, or if he really is stronger than Grimmjow.

Tessai seems too loyal to be a traitor, and regardless of his actions in the Gaiden, so far, he doesn't strike me as anyone suspicious. I'm most interested in seeing how Aizen explains away all these incidents. I do believe he sets up Urahara to take the fall, but after Urahara saves all the Vizard, I really have to wonder what stops them from giving Aizen away. I'm sure Soul Society wouldn't outright banish them, at least not without first giving them a moment to explain what happened.

Not to mention, if they believe Urahara did all this without their knowledge, then they would seem like Victims, and not conspirators, and thus would be given even more of a chance to explain the situation.

So it will be interesting to see how this plays out. The only thing I can think of, to keep the Vizard all quiet, is for Aizen to cast his Hypnosis on everyone, to make them think the Vizard are all dead right now, and not be able to see or hear them, so that they can't give him away. Then all thats left, is to somehow shut up Urahara and Tessai.


Well said. Since Aizen sets up Urahara to take the fall, I have to wonder whether Urahara is setting up Aizen for failure knowing that he’s not good. Urahara with good intentions deliberately gave Rukia hogyoku so that Aizen can put plans into action. But if Aizen’s hogyoku is just a prototype and Urahara later on created the real thing, where is it? :blink

hyn_pride93
June 13, 2008, 04:50 PM
LOL...That puts you at 100.9%

lol. so much for all of my math awards and skills. well at least you guys get what I'm saying..:tem

Doombot
June 13, 2008, 06:56 PM
Once again people are thinking that Aizen's as strong as Urahara? Are we actually going to underestimate the man a 3rd time? When this Gaiden started I said that Aizen was already freakishly strong and I was right. I said he was screwing around with Shinji and I was right. Now we are going to pretend that he isn't on par with Tessai and Urahara simply because he decided to leave?

He's clearly setting up the mad scientist for a fall because he is going to care too much about saving the captains. I can see Mayuri not sticking up for Urahara, because as he even stated himself through his experiments he came to the same methods of Aizen, so when the others question if it was Urahara behind it Mayuri will probably tell them of the experiments he has done. I do not think he's involved with Aizen but we all know Mayuri is a scumbag. I mean I wouldn't want it any other way.

hajialibaig
June 13, 2008, 07:46 PM
Now we are going to pretend that he isn't on par with Tessai and Urahara simply because he decided to leave?

Yea true. Aizen only left cuz he had better things to do. Aizen >> Urahara from day one in the gaiden. Also, Urahara looked as if he was in shock after experiencing Aizen's massive riatsu

C4animax
June 13, 2008, 07:47 PM
Well it's our right to belive that aizen only got stronger during the past 100 years, it is in my opinion quite sad that he's on par with spells (to say the least) and would leave so easily, maybe the badge falling on the floor is a proof that aizen is not sure to beat urahara making the best decision to flee.

As few people out there i believe that urahara was surprised rather than scared and i'd take the dialogue in account, first he ask what a lieutenant is doing there (meaning, he has at least power of a captain for a lieutenant) then aizen tells him the truth. At the end urahara even engage a pursuit imediatly stopped by tessai.

As for strengh for toussen and gin, the first one was obviously stopped by aizen to prevent him from being killed making the situation harder for aizen since toussen bankai is quite the usefull thing (has been prooved) and gin well...strong but not enough.

I love the forbiden technique tessai used and here we get to witness the the amazing skills of tessai, that's clearly what i was expecting. For those who believe that he's a traitor, they both have been living at youroichi's house (sp) and are at present time living at the same house, a change of heart sometime between -98 years and now? I don't think so, if there was an exile, that was for everyone.

Tsukisama
June 13, 2008, 08:14 PM
I enjoyed this chapter, especially because of Tessai's awesomeness. Seeing the hadou and then the two "forbidden" spells used was just amazing and strengthens kidou as my favorite area of shinigami combat. (Zanjutsu is nice but overused, and the other two just don't even hold a candle.)

Urahara using the Hougyoku now seems rather interesting, leaving me in anticipation for next chapter. I have often wondered what it would look like in action. Hopefully, this is not another situation where Kubo is baiting us and then does not live up to the hype promised in the last chapter. (I expected the "fight" between Urahara and Aizen to not be much, but Kubo really should not have hyped as much as he did at the end of last chapter.)


IN an overall, the chapter was pretty good, but the only issue I have is with Aizen: he's too overpowered in that time, even Urahara was scared with his reiatsu;

Good to see another hadou, and a high level one. probably Tessai would be able to take Aizen down if he were to use Hadous above level 90;

The hougyoku was smewhat expected to be showed in the gaiden, then I'm not dissapointed with it, and the cliffhanger was hellish;

I don't know why, but I have the feeling that Aizen took the hollowfication idea from Urahara, thus, Urahara was really the key to everything that happened; and add to this that still we don't know how exactly was the hollow process, and how it took Shinji and co. and not Urahara and Tessai, given the fact all of them were in the crime scene;

And a last thing: I'm 100% totally sure the biggest twist will happen in the upcoming chapters, something we aren't prepared, trust me, a great twist as we never seen before in bleach...

Like others, I believe that expression of Urahara's is more surprise than fear. This is similar to just after that Tessai underestimating the 5th division lieutenant. That page that you are referencing, Aizen says there that Urahara is just the man he expected him to be, which leads me to believe that he did not copy Urahara but had some sort of inclination about him that he was also into researching something so taboo as hollowfication.


That we don't know that much about Tessai is a good indicator that we should remain wary of him. Basically we just know that he's Urahara's assistant, he likes to sleep on top of Ichigo, and he knows some nasty kidou's. And now we know he's the ex-captain of the Kidou Corps. But that's all.

Tite Kubo just seemed to drop a few too many hints in this chapter about Tessai's character for me not to ignore the possibility.

And right, munafn, and it's also likely that Aizen might just have self-taught himself kidous. But even so, he had to have some source for knowing a forbidden technique.

While I don't believe that your theory is probably correct, I do understand your sentiments. If one were to look at Tessai's actions from a certain perspective, they probably would seem fishy, but how Tessai acted seemed pretty much in character to me: Tessai firing a powerful (but not excessively so) attack, his greater concern for those in immediate danger than worrying about following an unknown enemy, his speeches with his glasses reflecting the light to shield his eyes :amuse.

Tessai has always struck me as a mysterious character, usually low-key with surprising bursts of epicness. He still seems very loyal to me, in this chapter as well as every other chapter with him. If he is fooling everyone, then he can count me among the deceived. :hbunny

As for Aizen knowing a "forbidden" kidou, it is not as though this is the first time we have seen Dankuu. Byakuya used it against Zommari, at which point he did not make it seem all that forbidden. This leads me to either two conclusions: 1) Dankuu and perhaps some of the other "forbidden" spells are not really forbidden from everyone but only Kidou Corps members or certain inviduals should have access to its knowledge, or 2) forbidden spells are just not that hard for shinigami to learn about.
[hr]

Well it's our right to belive that aizen only got stronger during the past 100 years, it is in my opinion quite sad that he's on par with spells (to say the least) and would leave so easily, maybe the badge falling on the floor is a proof that aizen is not sure to beat urahara making the best decision to flee.

I don't really think the badge falling to the ground is really proof of anything except the effectiveness of Urahara's reiatsu-masking cloak. Aizen does not have to be weaker than Urahara to have been surprised by his presence, and Urahara slashed at the badge as he first appeared. After Aizen realized the presence of Urahara and Tessai, he remained composed.

C4animax
June 13, 2008, 08:37 PM
In my opinion the suit cloak isn't effective because of tessai being there, my point was not to say that one or the other is stronger but more that aizen knows that he might have troubles with urahara and even assuming that he has the upper hand would create dangerous delay/ alterate his plans. (i assumed this on the badge falling)

Freeloadersan
June 13, 2008, 08:46 PM
I saw this on BA so i thought it could help explain the whole "forbidden" Kido

From Spacecat on BA


I just looked at the raw (thanks FH) I think the kanji means more like "he skipped the incantaion" rather than "forbidden", not 100 percent sure though.


MQ/HQ RAW ~Thanks to Negi_FH~

Tsukisama
June 13, 2008, 08:48 PM
In my opinion the suit cloak isn't effective because of tessai being there, my point was not to say that one or the other is stronger but more that aizen knows that he might have troubles with urahara and even assuming that he has the upper hand would create dangerous delay/ alterate his plans. (i assumed this on the badge falling)

The cloak masks Urahara's reiatsu; so, Aizen would be more than likely surprised that Urahara was there and in striking range. We don't know if Aizen was shocked by Tessai's presence. He could have sensed Tessai's arrival but not Urahara.

It is possible that Aizen thought dealing with Urahara would be troublesome due to time, but I also think that Aizen having suspected that Urahara would know about hollowfication means that Aizen may have been planning to use him as a scapegoat before and that he could have left to set the next part of his plan (framing Urahara) in motion.
[hr]

I saw this on BA so i thought it could help explain the whole "forbidden" Kido

From Spacecat on BA

Thank you very much. :hbunny I didn't really think that Dankuu was forbidden, but this explanation does not really explain well the other two kidou Tessai uses in moving vizards. If it were not forbidden, then why would he ask Urahara to neither listen nor watch him perform it? :confused

Freeloadersan
June 13, 2008, 08:51 PM
OH my bad I think Spacecat was just talking about Danku specifically I forgot to add that to my post.

dreamzsai
June 13, 2008, 09:02 PM
This chapter really explains a lot of the story behind Bleach.
Aizen had been experimenting a lot since way back. And most likely, he finds that experimenting on "high level" captains/vice-captains would be best, as he'll be wanting to use the "results" on himself someday, doing his experiments on captains would give a closer look at what will happen when he does it on himself.

And at the same time, eliminating this captains will weaken Soul Society, as well as bring up empty slots for "he and his friends" to promote. With his Captain and Tousen's Captain dead/defected, the next ideal choice for the post would be they themselves. And with that, he'll be able to choose Gin as his vice-captain as well.

After hearing Urahara spout the words of "Hollowization", Aizen's quick thinking brought him to the "plan of retreat". Knowing how Urahara is a "research guy", Aizen probably realises that Urahara must know more of it if he speaks of the term. Yamamoto/Soul Society will not stand with "defects" and thus even if Urahara saves them, Shinji and crew will be getting their "punishment", and Urahara "saving" them will bring himself "punishment" as well.


As for Aizen knowing a "forbidden" kidou, it is not as though this is the first time we have seen Dankuu. Byakuya used it against Zommari, at which point he did not make it seem all that forbidden. This leads me to either two conclusions: 1) Dankuu and perhaps some of the other "forbidden" spells are not really forbidden from everyone but only Kidou Corps members or certain inviduals should have access to its knowledge, or 2) forbidden spells are just not that hard for shinigami to learn about.

Well, Dankuu isnt actually a forbidden technique. It's a "legal" bakudo, numbered 81. It is Tessai's "teleportation" and "timestop" kidous that are "forbidden".


And right, munafn, and it's also likely that Aizen might just have self-taught himself kidous. But even so, he had to have some source for knowing a forbidden technique.
And that probably answered a bit of your statement as well. However, Aizen might know some sort of "forbidden" technique as well, most likely "teleportation", unless it requires a long "casting", he might have been using it for "retreating".

Tessai himself was very surprised with Aizen, being a "vice-captain", using a Lv81 spell while skipping it's incantation to stop his Lv88 spell.
The number of a spell determines the difficultly of casting it correctly and effectively (#1 is simple to cast, #99 is incredibly difficult). With sufficient training, the the incantation can be bypassed, allowing spells to be used in combat quickly. Doing so, however, lessens the spell's effect, the degree of which is dependent upon the skill of the caster. Bypassing the incantation is also more difficult for higher-numbered spells, as casting them is already fairly difficult even with the full verbal component. Using a lessened effect Lv81 spell to defend effectively stop a Lv88(although also lessened effect, due to no incantation) spell by the Kidou Captain himself, is obviously nothing to scoff at.
I don't really think Tessai is bluffing about this "surprise" factor, and that he is in cahoots with Aizen.
Seeing how Aizen, and knowing his character to plan out everything, and that he did his research on the "King's Key" at the central 46 "library", he probably knew about it's existence, and didnt just stumble across the "library"
With that, and seeing that this "library" even contains information of such an important thing(King's Key), it most likely has information on stuff like Kidou. Aizen might have learned some of his Kidou from there.


I don't really think the badge falling to the ground is really proof of anything except the effectiveness of Urahara's reiatsu-masking cloak. Aizen does not have to be weaker than Urahara to have been surprised by his presence, and Urahara slashed at the badge as he first appeared. After Aizen realized the presence of Urahara and Tessai, he remained composed
I agree with you on this. Another proof to Aizen not being "afraid" of Urahara, it how he flaunt his Reiatsu towards Urahara.

EDIT:

Thank you very much. I didn't really think that Dankuu was forbidden, but this explanation does not really explain well the other two kidou Tessai uses in moving vizards. If it were not forbidden, then why would he ask Urahara to neither listen nor watch him perform itThe "teleportation, and "timestop" kidou that Tessai were using are indeed "forbidden" techniques. Tessai was merely portraying the situation in this way: "Hey Urahara, i believe you can see that this is a serious sitation and i(or we) have no other choice if we would wanna save our comrades here. I'll have to use this two forbidden techniques, i hope you'll pretend that you did not see or hear anything"

sk.nite
June 13, 2008, 09:12 PM
I didn't see the raw, but I did see cnet's translation. According to it, Dankuu is NOT forbidden, but the teleportation kidou is. He's generally a really good translator so that'd confirm freeloadersan's correction.

This chapter left me several questions: If the hougyoku already exists, how come Aizen didn't try to take it until recently? If he didn't know about it, how did he find out about it if Urahara has been in the human world all this time? If Urahara has been succesfully concealing the hougyoku for more than a hundred years, why did he decide to put it into Rukia? Why did Sasuke go pshycho and is currently trying to take down Konoha.... no wait, that doesn't go into this topic...:p

I've seen some people are speculating that Tessai is a traitor. There's always a chance, but it's very unlikely to me. Mainly because he's been with Urahara in the human world 100 years, and given the facts shown in this last chapter, he should have had plenty of opportunities to take the hougyoku to Aizen (and put Urahara to eternal rest on his way back), but he didn't.

Tsukisama
June 13, 2008, 09:20 PM
OH my bad I think Spacecat was just talking about Danku specifically I forgot to add that to my post.

That's fine. I hope that this confusion does not persist too much longer. I can already see now just how many people will have to be told that this was a translation error. :notrust


Well, Dankuu isnt actually a forbidden technique. It's a "legal" bakudo, numbered 81. It is Tessai's "teleportation" and "timestop" kidous that are "forbidden".

EDIT:The "teleportation, and "timestop" kidou that Tessai were using are indeed "forbidden" techniques. Tessai was merely portraying the situation in this way: "Hey Urahara, i believe you can see that this is a serious sitation and i(or we) have no other choice if we would wanna save our comrades here. I'll have to use this two forbidden techniques, i hope you'll pretend that you did not see or hear anything"

Thank you. I understood that the last two techniques were forbidden and why he felt needed to use such drastic measures, but it was nice of you to attempt to clarify this for someone you believed was confused. :hbunny
[hr]

This chapter left me several questions: If the hougyoku already exists, how come Aizen didn't try to take it until recently? If he didn't know about it, how did he find out about it if Urahara has been in the human world all this time? If Urahara has been succesfully concealing the hougyoku for more than a hundred years, why did he decide to put it into Rukia? Why did Sasuke go pshycho and is currently trying to take down Konoha.... no wait, that doesn't go into this topic...:p

Q1 response: Aizen did not know the location of the Hougyoku until recently, but it does not necessarily mean that he did not know of its existence.

Q2 response: Good question. This one puzzles me too. Hopefully Kubo has a good response to this that isn't too terribly contrived.

Q3 response: Plot no jutsu :p

Freeloadersan
June 13, 2008, 09:29 PM
I didn't see anyone post this yet, so excuse me if I missed it. I looked over the chapter again I noticed that Urahara said

"Hollowfication...Is one of the solutions I came up with when researching how to strengthen souls."

Could that imply that Urahara may know other methods to strengthen souls? It would be funny if hybridization isn't even the best method of strengthening souls.

Silhouette
June 13, 2008, 10:02 PM
"Hollowfication...Is one of the solutions I came up with when researching how to strengthen souls."

Could that imply that Urahara may know other methods to strengthen souls? It would be funny if hybridization isn't even the best method of strengthening souls.

Interesting thought you had. I think that hollow transformation is the best/strongest method though since both Aizen and Urahara choose to invest time and efforts in it over other methods.

Drew7898
June 13, 2008, 10:04 PM
Didn't aizen say Urahara sealed the hougyoku right after creating it........so could this mean that aizen doesn't know that shinji and co are still alive......or was he counting on Urahara being able to cure them some way

too many possibilities

THETRUTH.com
June 13, 2008, 10:24 PM
Didn't aizen say Urahara sealed the hougyoku right after creating it........so could this mean that aizen doesn't know that shinji and co are still alive......or was he counting on Urahara being able to cure them some way

too many possibilities


I think it is very possible that he does not know. If we take into account that the Vizards most likely used untraceable gigai's to escape. From this page (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/15/) it is definitely possible that doesnt know the Shinji and co. are alive with their powers in tact.

dreamzsai
June 13, 2008, 10:34 PM
This chapter left me several questions: If the hougyoku already exists, how come Aizen didn't try to take it until recently? If he didn't know about it, how did he find out about it if Urahara has been in the human world all this time? If Urahara has been succesfully concealing the hougyoku for more than a hundred years, why did he decide to put it into Rukia?
Hmm, i can only think that Aizen didnt know of the Hougyoku's existence.
When Urahara mentioned the words "Hollowization", Aizen thought for a second that maybe Urahara knows something about it, and if Urahara sucessfully "rescues" his comrades from the situation they are in, then he can comfirm that Urahara holds something that can complete the process of "turning Vizard". That's probably why Aizen retreats. So basically, if Aizen gets to see that Shinji is alive and kicking, he will start to hunt down for the "cure".
Urahara probably realises that(but probably only after he "used" the Hougyoku), and decides that he shouldnt be keeping the Hougyoku with him, and that's why all the "Rukia" stuff happened.
Well, that's what i can think of, my 5cents ;)

godofthesunn
June 13, 2008, 10:51 PM
Aizen should have just been urahara's liutenient if he wanted to do so much hollow research..

GK brought up that Tessai thing.. well thanks gk for just ruining the whole series for me thats not a prediction that i would like to see.

So now were going to see the fine line between hollow and shinigami is broken down. But we still need to know what Aizen did... that wasn't resolved

bigbyte
June 14, 2008, 01:51 AM
I think it is very possible that he does not know. If we take into account that the Vizards most likely used untraceable gigai's to escape. From this page (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/15/) it is definitely possible that doesnt know the Shinji and co. are alive with their powers in tact.

I beg to differ. He might not know where there are but he most likely knows about them being alive. How else can he claim that Urahara succeeded in creating a substance that can blur the line?

llamapie
June 14, 2008, 02:30 AM
I think it is very possible that he does not know. If we take into account that the Vizards most likely used untraceable gigai's to escape. From this page (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/15/) it is definitely possible that doesnt know the Shinji and co. are alive with their powers in tact.

Actually I'm fairly certain Urahara knew about the Vizard. I think they all get exiled at the same time.

What that link brings back to us is why Urahara has been exiled. The material to mask one's spiritual energy.

Lets look back 3 chapters:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.08/18/

Its probably the same material that gigai was made out of. So its probably something as simple as disobeying orders and creating such a material. We'll see probably next chapter.

Sharingan warrior
June 14, 2008, 06:25 AM
wow so aizen at vice captain's spiritual level even scared a captain such as urahara and he was using moves which ranked higher than wat was expected of him
[hr]
ive been wondering how is it possible that all this happened yet aizen became a captain and noone ever found out about his true nature,it doesnt seem possible in my eyes,even being exiled someone should have been able to tell another caotain about aizen's true nature.

Yans86
June 14, 2008, 08:26 AM
GIN GIN GIN..........always toying....in a situation full o f tension with vizards,Urahara and Tessai,the risks tehy were running,all Gin could say,smiling,was.....OPS THEY FOUND US!!!!!!!!
Amazing amazing amazing,no fear,everything a game for him!!!
And for the guys saying that Gin had hardtime with Histsugaya...please,r u kidding me?!he has never been serious with him,he was only playing,waiting to leave SS with the Hougyoku and Aizen....if he wanted kill Histu,I think he could have done as fast as Aizen did.....without Histugaya noticing it!!!

zzlow
June 14, 2008, 09:50 AM
so anyone else notice that in Matsumoto's flashback of her and gin travelling together, before they joined the gotenki 13, that gin was alot older, and now he's a kid already in the gotenki. Obvious screw up by mr. tite.

there no such flashback by mr KT. it's anime-only filler. i wonder why some peoples belive in KT relation to anime (past episode 63 especially).


...When Urahara mentioned the words "Hollowization", Aizen thought for a second that maybe Urahara knows something about it...
yeah, good reason for retreating finally came out. aizen did own experiments and urahara came right in middle of process "just as i thought, (it's possible to) speed up..." (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.1/015/).

Kikuna992
June 14, 2008, 11:49 AM
I didn't see anyone post this yet, so excuse me if I missed it. I looked over the chapter again I noticed that Urahara said

"Hollowfication...Is one of the solutions I came up with when researching how to strengthen souls."

Could that imply that Urahara may know other methods to strengthen souls? It would be funny if hybridization isn't even the best method of strengthening souls.

That is exactly what I noticed! Reading into it very deeply lol! That seems to me like a suggestion that there could be an alternative, possibly better, way to "upgrade" a shinigamis' strength. Seeing as Aizen is almost unbeatable at the moment and also seeing as Ichigo seems to have reached the extent of the power increase caused by hollofication (apart from Celo) this may be the key for him to finally beat Aizen... Just hypothesizing.

ryanzokuken
June 14, 2008, 12:54 PM
Aizen probably knows the vaizards are still around.

don't you think Grimmjow and/or Ulquiorra would mention something about some guy showing up to help Ichigo, putting on a mask, and wooping Grimm's ass? Grimmjow might not be so quick to say something about it, as he isn't big on socializing with those on his side, but Ulquirra probably would let Aizen know.

or maybe not. i guess we'll see.

No Quarter
June 14, 2008, 01:06 PM
All I have to say Aizen is one scary bastard. To me it seems that he is already stronger than Urahara. He is as we know fearless but to actually blatantly flaunt his reiatsu on Urahara and tell him "You are proceeding as I expected you to" (or something to that extent) is to me a clear sign that he is not afraid of Urahara. And on the other hand so far Urahara is always on the losing side. We know that he gets banished from SS, we know that Aizen manages to steal his Hougoku, we know that he manages to kidnap Orihime, and now it seems that Aizen actually "forced" Urahara to help him with his experiments by hollowifying Shinji & co. to which Urahara apparently responds the way Aizen wanted him to, namely by going to the next stage of the hollowification experiment - controlled Hollowification.

Aizen has Urahara dancing to his tune from day 1, and Urahara always tries to catch up, but unfortunately so far Aizen seems to always be a couple of steps ahead. Aizen must be the most overpowering character in a shounen yet. Most major bad guys are always intelligent, manipulating and powerful but Aizen takes the crown; He is extremely intelligent in bleach "science" (second only to Urahara perhaps), so far the most powerful individual in combat, has double the reiatsu of a captain (dare I say more than Zaraki?), an unbelievably overpowering and unbreakable (so far) Shikai, and worst of all an insight on situations and other characters that allows him to always anticipate an opponent's moves and always be 2 step ahead of them.

Anyway, it's really fun having such a good villain, but in all honesty I'd like to see the good guys win a bit. I mean at this point I really don't even see why Aizen wants to become a hybrid? He already seems so much stronger than everyone else that unless there is some other being yet to be seen in the story that is stronger than him, becoming a hybrid is insignificant.

Devil-buster
June 14, 2008, 02:48 PM
Well I have not seen Urahara playing catch-up to aizen at all...He seems to figure out all of Aizens Plans before Aizen actually puts them into effect.....the only difference is the people they surround themselves with....Aizen has 2 very clever captains and atleast 4 high class espada as opposed to people like rukia and inoue who surrounds urahara and not to mention captains who will only listen to an old geezer who has all brawn and no brain....It is just easier for Aizen to carry out his plans....

We also cannot say Aizen surpasses Urahara in strength....I mean the only time we have seen Urahara fight in the least bit of seriousness was when he was training Ichigo....and he seemed more adapted to fighting than most of thee other captains we have seen....and remember this is in his gigai and not his true shinigami form....

Kastro187420
June 14, 2008, 02:54 PM
We also cannot say Aizen surpasses Urahara in strength....I mean the only time we have seen Urahara fight in the least bit of seriousness was when he was training Ichigo....and he seemed more adapted to fighting than most of thee other captains we have seen....and remember this is in his gigai and not his true shinigami form....

There was that time when he went to save Ichigo and them from Yammy and Ulquiorra. Ulquiorra dispelled his attack with a flick of his wrist, which surprised Urahara. Ulquiorra just kinda smirked about it. Its not much to go on, but it is something.

If we're going with the impression that Aizen is superior in strength to all the Espada, then Aizen > Urahara by the fact that Ulquiorra is #4 and did that to his attack.

Anyway, we really don't have too much to go on, so its hard to say for sure, but I would have to think that if Urahara were on par with Aizen, he'd have been able to stop him back when they first met up in the field, and he wouldn't have only cut his badge off.

Franckie
June 14, 2008, 03:41 PM
I think it is very possible that he does not know. If we take into account that the Vizards most likely used untraceable gigai's to escape. From this page (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/15/) it is definitely possible that doesnt know the Shinji and co. are alive with their powers in tact.

Considering what we've seen of Aizen thus far, we can expect something like the following to occur:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/punslinger/ExactlyasPlannedsmaller.jpg

Urahara helping Shinji and co. is probably part of Aizen's plan. Remember, the concept of Xanatos Roulette (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosRoulette) goes hand-in-hand with Aizen.

ajaxsoccerjon
June 14, 2008, 04:35 PM
You know I honestly didn't believe it when you all started talking about Tessai being a shady until I thought of something. He was the only one down in the shaft with Ichigo when he bound him using the same technique that Hachi used on Kensei. It would make perfect sense if Tessai is a traitor now just because of that fact. Cuz let's face it, its been in the back of our minds about the conditions of hollowification. While the specs aren't out, we now have a common variable in both situations, Tessai and Urahara. Urahara is a good guy this we know, but Tessai, I don't know. It would make perfect sense.

gold349
June 14, 2008, 04:52 PM
I think Aizen doesn't know that the Vaizards (original) are well and alive and residing in the real world. When he sent Ulquaria to the real world with no 10 espada (cant recall his name), here (www.onemanga.com/Bleach/191/11) Ulquaria mentions that there are only three people with spirit pressures high enough to be of any trouble to HM (apart from Ichigo), I think the three he had in mind are Urahara, Tessai and Yourichi.

Even though Ichigo has gone through a transformation and caught Aizens eye of late, Aizen could put down Ichigo's hollowfication down to Urahara experimenting now (after banishment), as far as he knows the hollowfication of shinji and co was a failed experiment and as he had no idea of the Hougokyou at that time, presumed that they had all died (not knowing that Urahara saved them with it)

Even though I think that to be the case, its baffling as to how he doesn't know this information, he was left in SS and rose to captain rank, found out that there is a spirit king and how to make a key to get to his dimension but something as simple as shinigami being kicked out of SS for practicing forbidden arts (I'm speculating here 'cus Urahara did say that the Vaizards were kicked out of SS for practicing forbidden arts) never came to his attention or he missed this information altogether. Its just surprising that a quatro Espada has been told that there are are only four people with spiritual pressure high enough to be of concern (including Ichigo), I make it more than a dozen people in the real world with spiritual pressure or rietsu that would/could threaten HM. Anyway we will see when the war begins and Aizen sees Shinji and co alive and well taking Urahara, Ichigo and SS side.

Pointlessness413
June 14, 2008, 08:33 PM
I think Aizen doesn't know that the Vaizards (original) are well and alive and residing in the real world. When he sent Ulquaria to the real world with no 10 espada (cant recall his name), here (www.onemanga.com/Bleach/191/11) Ulquaria mentions that there are only three people with spirit pressures high enough to be of any trouble to HM (apart from Ichigo), I think the three he had in mind are Urahara, Tessai and Yourichi.

Even though Ichigo has gone through a transformation and caught Aizens eye of late, Aizen could put down Ichigo's hollowfication down to Urahara experimenting now (after banishment), as far as he knows the hollowfication of shinji and co was a failed experiment and as he had no idea of the Hougokyou at that time, presumed that they had all died (not knowing that Urahara saved them with it)

Even though I think that to be the case, its baffling as to how he doesn't know this information, he was left in SS and rose to captain rank, found out that there is a spirit king and how to make a key to get to his dimension but something as simple as shinigami being kicked out of SS for practicing forbidden arts (I'm speculating here 'cus Urahara did say that the Vaizards were kicked out of SS for practicing forbidden arts) never came to his attention or he missed this information altogether. Its just surprising that a quatro Espada has been told that there are are only four people with spiritual pressure high enough to be of concern (including Ichigo), I make it more than a dozen people in the real world with spiritual pressure or rietsu that would/could threaten HM. Anyway we will see when the war begins and Aizen sees Shinji and co alive and well taking Urahara, Ichigo and SS side.


I think another thing to support the theory that Aizen doesn't know that the Vaizards are alive is that Aizen said Urahara never used Hougyoku. Barring some stupid turn of events next week, Urahara's going to use Hougyoku to save the Vaizards. Most likely, Aizen doesn't know that it was used for this.

godofthesunn
June 14, 2008, 08:43 PM
Aizen knows they are alive because ss thinks of them as rouge ninja who haven't wanted to become hollow.. However it seems that ss is still working with Urahara since he helped them get too Kakura town.. I dont think hes really exiled but meh.. perhaps they just couldnt put him in that jail because he is too strong...I dont think tessai is working with aizen.. because he has caught urahara off guard twice or at least suprised him with his remarks so it seems their work together is not betrayl...

I think Aizen learned of hogokyou by going though urahara's files that what he said at least..

bigbyte
June 14, 2008, 08:55 PM
I think Aizen doesn't know that the Vaizards (original) are well and alive and residing in the real world. When he sent Ulquaria to the real world with no 10 espada (cant recall his name), here (www.onemanga.com/Bleach/191/11) Ulquaria mentions that there are only three people with spirit pressures high enough to be of any trouble to HM (apart from Ichigo), I think the three he had in mind are Urahara, Tessai and Yourichi.

...

Even though I think that to be the case, its baffling as to how he doesn't know this information, he was left in SS and rose to captain rank, found out that there is a spirit king and how to make a key to get to his dimension but something as simple as shinigami being kicked out of SS for practicing forbidden arts (I'm speculating here 'cus Urahara did say that the Vaizards were kicked out of SS for practicing forbidden arts) never came to his attention or he missed this information altogether. Its just surprising that a quatro Espada has been told that there are are only four people with spiritual pressure high enough to be of concern (including Ichigo), I make it more than a dozen people in the real world with spiritual pressure or rietsu that would/could threaten HM. Anyway we will see when the war begins and Aizen sees Shinji and co alive and well taking Urahara, Ichigo and SS side.

Where does he (or anywhere in manga) say "apart from Ichigo?" When he first mentioned that there are three people I thought it was Ichi, Ura & Yourichi. Yes it is baffling that he doesn't know of Vaizards when he could figure out that Rukia's gigai had hougyoku. And because of that now I think it may be three out of Ichi, Ura, Yourichi and Shinji. Ichigo in definitely in. Yourichi is also a very strong candidate since she kicked Yammi's @$$ bare-handed. Urahara was also toying with Yammi but he is #10. Shinji could have easily defeated #6. May be Urahara is smart (and quite strong) but not strong enough to be a threat to HM.

taimoor2
June 14, 2008, 09:24 PM
Is anyone else wondering if Tessai can take people so conveniently anywhere why he didn't take them to Unohana? Urahara clearly said it's a gamble so it's not like Tessai was sure Urahara will be able to cure them. This is especially suspicious as Kisuke didn't even asked Tessai to take them to 12 divisions. He just said we don't have the equipment here!

This is another thing that lends credence to GK's theory!

Devil-buster
June 14, 2008, 10:41 PM
Is anyone else wondering if Tessai can take people so conveniently anywhere why he didn't take them to Unohana? Urahara clearly said it's a gamble so it's not like Tessai was sure Urahara will be able to cure them. This is especially suspicious as Kisuke didn't even asked Tessai to take them to 12 divisions. He just said we don't have the equipment here!

This is another thing that lends credence to GK's theory!

Well Unohana is a healer and not a researcher or scientist so I dont think she will have any clue on how to handle something like that....the only reason tessai suggested to take them to division 12 is because of his trust in urahara's ability...and because of the fact that urahara is the only one who has any clue of whats goin on....the tessai being a traitor theory does not make sense at all...For one when Aizen blocked tessai's he wasnt talking out loud when he was surprised....that means he was genuinely surprised....why would he be surprised when if he already knew aizen....

bladehappy
June 14, 2008, 10:44 PM
Is anyone else wondering if Tessai can take people so conveniently anywhere why he didn't take them to Unohana? Urahara clearly said it's a gamble so it's not like Tessai was sure Urahara will be able to cure them. This is especially suspicious as Kisuke didn't even asked Tessai to take them to 12 divisions. He just said we don't have the equipment here!

This is another thing that lends credence to GK's theory!

He knew Urahara had the equipment in the 12th Division, and I think it would be a very bad move to send hollowficating shinigami to Unohana when she has no way of healing them.


However it seems that ss is still working with Urahara since he helped them get too Kakura town.. I dont think hes really exiled but meh..

I think this is because Aizen framed Urahara, and they had exiled him for doing the hollowfication, and saying it was because of a gigai so no other shinigami in the future will attempt what he attempted, thus causing more trouble. After they found out they were tricked, it was only natural to go back to Urahara and apologize for their wrong judgement.

someguy0830
June 15, 2008, 12:13 AM
Why can't it be both? Aizen could have framed Urahara for the hollowification, but by the time they caught up to him he had helped the vizard ditch Soul Society with the special gigai. Therefore, he was publicly exiled for the gigai while privately being to blame for the hollowification.

bladehappy
June 15, 2008, 12:16 AM
I don't see why not. That can be a possibility too.

Sa-sori
June 15, 2008, 02:39 AM
Glory to Hypnotoad :p

hyn_pride93
June 15, 2008, 03:06 AM
Why can't it be both? Aizen could have framed Urahara for the hollowification, but by the time they caught up to him he had helped the vizard ditch Soul Society with the special gigai. Therefore, he was publicly exiled for the gigai while privately being to blame for the hollowification.

that sounds like a very possible reason for being exiled. SS and organizations like them are always doing things like that. covering up the truth and starting consperacies.:notrust so irraz. why cant they just say the truth? oh ya, protecting everyone and themselves:notrust

THETRUTH.com
June 15, 2008, 03:20 AM
I know why people think that Aizen knows of the Vizards because through out the course of the manga he has known everything. But their is no evidence to support this. Urlqu is strong he is #4 but I think two vizards could take him easily. If Ichigo already beat GJ. Then Shinji and Kensai, for example, could probably take Ulqu. I think that is very reasonable considering the vizards were able to spar with a hollowfied Ichigo with using their masks, not to mention their bankais as 4 of the vizards are captains.

Aizen is terribly strong but he must have had some reason not to just go get the hougyoku from Urahara. Letting it get into a gigai would only complicate getting the hougyoku. I think he is strong but as he said shinigami have limits. We are all assuming he is the only one at those limits. There could be other shinigami at the limit as well, maybe not in all the categorizes like Aizen but maybe 1 or 2 of them. Yourichi and Soi Fong are combining two different categories into one that should raise the effectiveness of both.

There is only one Aizen in this story Gin is strong but he aint Aizen. As far as his battle with Hitsu, he probably did call himself playing a bit and he almost got killed for it. At the very least Hitsu was able to get to his blind spot. Looking at it from a tactical standpoint, why would Gin intentionally let Hitsu wrap that chain around his arm(which surprised him) and let him get to his blind spot. What we learned from that fight is that Gin is not good enough to play with Hitsu, who is among the weaker captains as he should be due to his age.

So Aizen could know the Vizards are alive and have successfully suppressed their hollows. Though in light of available evidence this is definately the less likely possibility.

someguy0830
June 15, 2008, 03:21 AM
Glory to Hypnotoad :pDamn straight.


that sounds like a very possible reason for being exiled. SS and organizations like them are always doing things like that. covering up the truth and starting consperacies.:notrust so irraz. why cant they just say the truth? oh ya, protecting everyone and themselves:notrustExactly. They keep people they think will screw up the status quo in prison, so keeping people from researching how to gain hollow powers wouldn't be a stretch.

Jadedmariner
June 15, 2008, 03:28 AM
Although it seems clear that Aizen doesn't fear Urahara I find it likely that he must have strongly doubted the ability for his group to defeat Urahara's. There just is not much of a reasonable explanation for why Aizen would have waited a century to seize the Hougyoku unless he held strong doubts that he was capable of taking it by force. He must have known their location and the fact he realized the hougyoku was hidden in Rukia's gigai so quickly must have meant that he was keeping an eye on him.

hyn_pride93
June 15, 2008, 03:29 AM
Exactly. They keep people they think will screw up the status quo in prison, so keeping people from researching how to gain hollow powers wouldn't be a stretch.

Totally, and look what they got from that: a total and complete wreck that they happened to cause themselves. the loss of three Captains and more shinigami along the way. but what happened when one Captain decided to try something new? He ended up producing a whole new Section within the
12th division and producing an unbelievable Captain--> Mayuri.

Zeus-Tails
June 15, 2008, 03:55 AM
Although it seems clear that Aizen doesn't fear Urahara I find it likely that he must have strongly doubted the ability for his group to defeat Urahara's. There just is not much of a reasonable explanation for why Aizen would have waited a century to seize the Hougyoku unless he held strong doubts that he was capable of taking it by force. He must have known their location and the fact he realized the hougyoku was hidden in Rukia's gigai so quickly must have meant that he was keeping an eye on him.

Are you serious? Aizen can probably take Urahara and Tessai by himself. But he doesn't want to kill them. Now that he knows Urahara knows of hollowification and Urahara is a scientist, he can make Urahara do the research and work now and Aizen will take the results later. Simple as that.

Bucks
June 15, 2008, 05:04 AM
Bleach tends to be fairly predictable compared to even the other shounen manga's. My prediction will be that Aizen set's up Kisuke to take the fall for what he had done to the future vaizard. (I can't be bothered to recall their names).

bladehappy
June 15, 2008, 11:32 AM
Bleach tends to be fairly predictable compared to even the other shounen manga's. My prediction will be that Aizen set's up Kisuke to take the fall for what he had done to the future vaizard. (I can't be bothered to recall their names).

Well, I only believe is predictable now because its all in the past and already happened, so from the current story we can deduce the happenings easily.

Urahara was exiled, the Soul Society likes to cover-up things, Aizen left Urahara with the Vaizard. Everything leans against him.

patedecarne
June 15, 2008, 11:58 AM
Bleach tends to be fairly predictable compared to even the other shounen manga's. My prediction will be that Aizen set's up Kisuke to take the fall for what he had done to the future vaizard. (I can't be bothered to recall their names).

Maybe not; I think the greatest twist is about the happen in the upcoming chapters, think carefully: until now, the only relevant thing we saw was the hollowfication; still left: Hougyoku' use, Vaizard's true motivation, Urahara exile;

I think now people are thinking is too predicable because that's Kubo's true intention. but something more great probably will happen from now...

gigantor21
June 15, 2008, 01:11 PM
^ I really, really doubt that. Few authors would run the risk of deliberately making the story boring just to hype up something else. Just look at the HM Arc--the big "twist" there was Aizen pushing up the War effort, but that didn't make the 18 months of crap preceding it look any better. If anything, the move made the arc even more pointless. It was clearly a lack of narrative direction on Kubo's part.

As far as the Gaiden goes, I'm not waiting on some big twist to vindicate Kubo. I just want it to be tied up neatly and quickly, since it's being dragged out now.

THETRUTH.com
June 15, 2008, 03:04 PM
Are you serious? Aizen can probably take Urahara and Tessai by himself. But he doesn't want to kill them. Now that he knows Urahara knows of hollowification and Urahara is a scientist, he can make Urahara do the research and work now and Aizen will take the results later. Simple as that.


One thing that hurts this arguement is Aizen sees the hougyoku as the pinnacle of Urahara's research. It was his objective. The main reason Aizen left SS was because he obtained it. And risked a lot to obtain it. If he was willing to go up against SS for hougyoku why would he not just go take it from Urahara. Every shinigami seems to know where Urahara was located. From Aizen's point of view, now that he has exposed himself as a threat he can't move as freely because now he has to deal with both Real World group and SS. So if he had not exposed himself, it would make sense that he wanted Urahara to do more research so he could take it later. But now exposed any move against Urahara is a move against everyone.


By the why how much of the Shihouin stuff was invented by Urahara.

Tsukisama
June 15, 2008, 03:34 PM
By the why how much of the Shihouin stuff was invented by Urahara.

Hopefully none (or very little) of it was created by Urahara. The Shihouin clan was known for its inventions (called the Tenshiheisouban for its inventions). Thus, many of those inventions have probably been in the family before Urahara entered the picture. If Urahara has invented something while in her house (probably so), I doubt that Yoruichi would make him place the family name on it instead of giving him the credit.

C4animax
June 15, 2008, 06:43 PM
Although it seems clear that Aizen doesn't fear Urahara I find it likely that he must have strongly doubted the ability for his group to defeat Urahara's. There just is not much of a reasonable explanation for why Aizen would have waited a century to seize the Hougyoku unless he held strong doubts that he was capable of taking it by force. He must have known their location and the fact he realized the hougyoku was hidden in Rukia's gigai so quickly must have meant that he was keeping an eye on him.

I'm sharing the same feeling, we can't tell who's the strongest, the only surprising fact is that "the lieutenant" has captain reaitsu (at least) as for the ability of his group, they don't stand a chance.

If he really wanted the hyougoku he might have tried to take it full force and take down urahara, it's not like he isn't smart enough to fool SS again, especially with his shikai.

ryanzokuken
June 15, 2008, 08:05 PM
i think some fans focus on Kubo too much and how he writes the story along. it makes it much too serious and less enjoyable to focus on that and critisize what he's doing right or wrong or how things should or shouldn't be.

if more people would just take the story and events as they come and think of it as a story already written or as actual events happening in some fantasy world, they'd be much happier with it.

lighten up and enjoy it. it is how it is. :)

but then again i guess some fans just have more fun critiquing and theorizing and such.

annnyyywaysss

as this gaiden wraps up, i don't think a lot of big mysteries were solved or truths revealed. sure, we learned some stuff, like the vaizards and Tessai having been captains and lieutenans formerly, but we got to see some interesting stuff regarding some other characters like Yoruichi, Byakuya, etc.

but the big events, like the creation of the vaizards, Aizen's group being behind it, Urahara now using the hougyouku to help them, and all of them later being exiled for such, it wasn't really anything surprising. i think all (maybe most?) of us pretty much guessed how this would play out from before.

either way, i'm pumped and ready to get back to the present and see some badass, high scale battle.

walkie
June 16, 2008, 03:13 AM
Although it seems clear that Aizen doesn't fear Urahara I find it likely that he must have strongly doubted the ability for his group to defeat Urahara's. There just is not much of a reasonable explanation for why Aizen would have waited a century to seize the Hougyoku unless he held strong doubts that he was capable of taking it by force. He must have known their location and the fact he realized the hougyoku was hidden in Rukia's gigai so quickly must have meant that he was keeping an eye on him.

there is a reasonable explanation..aizen didnt know where was the hougyoku..he searched for it but couldnt find because urahara hide it well for so long...if i remember right, he said this himself during first arc...

sabret00the
June 16, 2008, 06:38 AM
How has we still not seen Urahara fight? Come on, you're taking the piss now.

Also, it would appear that Urahara's expulsion from SS was some sort of rouse. yay! (the yay was sarcastic).

patedecarne
June 16, 2008, 08:57 AM
i think some fans focus on Kubo too much and how he writes the story along. it makes it much too serious and less enjoyable to focus on that and critisize what he's doing right or wrong or how things should or shouldn't be.

if more people would just take the story and events as they come and think of it as a story already written or as actual events happening in some fantasy world, they'd be much happier with it.

lighten up and enjoy it. it is how it is. :)

but then again i guess some fans just have more fun critiquing and theorizing and such.




I'm with you here, and I'm enjoying so much this gaiden: at least to me, he's doing an excellent job in the story aspect, and we cannot expect that everything could be perfect; of course this gaiden has some flaws, but in a balance right now, I'd to say the gaiden has so many good point than bad ones...

ajaxsoccerjon
June 16, 2008, 12:30 PM
I'm with you here, and I'm enjoying so much this gaiden: at least to me, he's doing an excellent job in the story aspect, and we cannot expect that everything could be perfect; of course this gaiden has some flaws, but in a balance right now, I'd to say the gaiden has so many good point than bad ones...

oh god me too, i found it awesome when they showed young soi fon, mayuri, li' gin, tiny byakuya, and my FAV little hisagi. My hope is that Hisagi gets more backstory, he kicks ass big time and I think there's more to him than we realize. But this gaiden is amazing, the vaizard rule.

iorinyc
June 16, 2008, 04:28 PM
I have been lurking around for a while but been too lazy to make an account. The thing I don't understand is why people are thinking that Urahara will get EXILED for creaing the hogokyu?

If you go back to SS arc where Aizen is taking the hogokyu out of rukia he succinctly explains that the reason Urahara was banished was for creating a GIGAI that makes sould reapers turn into regular humans. So Urahara haven't created the untraceble gigai yet or we don't know he did. So the reason he was banished was due to the gigai not hogokyu.

someguy0830
June 16, 2008, 05:59 PM
The public story doesn't have to be the same as the actual story. They could easily hide one charge and exile him for the other, minor one.

GothHearth
June 16, 2008, 06:10 PM
Now Now , Let's How How Urahara's Gonna Do His Thingy !! I'm Excited :p

bladehappy
June 16, 2008, 06:10 PM
The public story doesn't have to be the same as the actual story. They could easily hide one charge and exile him for the other, minor one.


Yeah, I think this is the case, since you can never "retire". They just cover it up. So why wouldn't they just cover up something so devastating with something less important.


Edit: I also think this next chapter will not explain how Urahara/Yoruichi or the Vaizard are exiled.

iorinyc
June 16, 2008, 06:34 PM
That makes no sense. If you look at hogokyu from a different perspective you can see that it's not that harmful to SS since all its doing is making the captains stronger and like Aizen said captains make up SS. Now if you look at untracable gigai then you would know that its something dangerous to the SS.

The gigai makes a soul repear turn into a human and they will never get their power back. So if you look at it from this perspective Aizen was right. Urahara did get banished for creating the gigai. Unless the SS was not privy of the hogokyu, which I'm highly skeptic off.
[hr]
Sorry for the double post but IIRC we have already seen how the hogokyu works. Didn't Aizen use it on a regular hollow and that hollow mask broke and Wonderwice (the kid who almost touched Urahara's hat) came out?

bladehappy
June 16, 2008, 06:43 PM
That makes no sense. If you look at hogokyu from a different perspective you can see that it's not that harmful to SS since all its doing is making the captains stronger and like Aizen said captains make up SS. Now if you look at untracable gigai then you would know that its something dangerous to the SS.

The gigai makes a soul repear turn into a human and they will never get their power back. So if you look at it from this perspective Aizen was right. Urahara did get banished for creating the gigai. Unless the SS was not privy of the hogokyu, which I'm highly skeptic off.
?

Nononono.

The hougyoku is used to make hybrids, in a nutshell. That's illegal, and I doubt they want to openly admit to everyone from then on that something like that was created, it will only lead to others wanting it or trying to create it for themselves. Since Urahara also made this illegal gigai, they blame the gigai on Urahara for the public to see and secretly blame him for the Hougyoku. Double kill.

Tsukisama
June 16, 2008, 06:46 PM
That makes no sense. If you look at hogokyu from a different perspective you can see that it's not that harmful to SS since all its doing is making the captains stronger and like Aizen said captains make up SS. Now if you look at untracable gigai then you would know that its something dangerous to the SS.

The gigai makes a soul repear turn into a human and they will never get their power back. So if you look at it from this perspective Aizen was right. Urahara did get banished for creating the gigai. Unless the SS was not privy of the hogokyu, which I'm highly skeptic off.
<hr noshade size="1">
Sorry for the double post but IIRC we have already seen how the hogokyu works. Didn't Aizen use it on a regular hollow and that hollow mask broke and Wonderwice (the kid who almost touched Urahara's hat) came out?

Urahara may have been banned for the untraceable gigai, but there is likely more to the story than just that.

Although what you are saying is true (using the Hougyoku can grant SS more power), the use of such methods is against SS's philosophy. SS is staunchly against hollows and associating with hollows. To become partially hollow is stated to be forbidden by Isshin, and thus if SS found out Urahara actually created a device that can change shinigami into hollows, there would likely be reprecussions.

As for Wonderweiss and the Hougyoku, we did not get to see a full glimpse of its power. It still was not at 100%, while it may be (and presumably is) at 100% capacity here in the gaiden.

iorinyc
June 16, 2008, 07:36 PM
If it was really forbidden and dangerous as you say then why did the SS banish Urahara WITH the hogokyu? Why not take that dangerous weapon from him? There are 2 explanation for this and the first one I have already stated and, the 2nd one is that SS didn't know Urahara created the hogokyu. Like I said before I find the latter one hard to believe since the SS know about the hogokyu so the only reasonable explanation is that the SS considered the gigai a much bigger threat then the hogokyu.

Also when Aizen used the hogokyu on Wonderwice, it was 100% because Aizen said hogokyu can be FULLY AWAKENED if some one with TWICE as much spirirt power as a capatain uses it. So Aizen forcibly awakened the hogokyu to 100% and created Wonderwice.

Tsukisama
June 16, 2008, 08:04 PM
If it was really forbidden and dangerous as you say then why did the SS banish Urahara WITH the hogokyu? Why not take that dangerous weapon from him? There are 2 explanation for this and the first one I have already stated and, the 2nd one is that SS didn't know Urahara created the hogokyu. Like I said before I find the latter one hard to believe since the SS know about the hogokyu so the only reasonable explanation is that the SS considered the gigai a much bigger threat then the hogokyu.

Also when Aizen used the hogokyu on Wonderwice, it was 100% because Aizen said hogokyu can be FULLY AWAKENED if some one with TWICE as much spirirt power as a capatain uses it. So Aizen forcibly awakened the hogokyu to 100% and created Wonderwice.

The use of such techniques have been stated as forbidden. There is no getting around that. As for why the Hougyoku was left to Urahara's care, I don't know. Your two possible explanations are viable, but there could be some other reason for the situation. Anything I could propose would only be speculation, but anything is possible at this point.

No one has stated (or at least I haven't) that Urahara has definitely been exiled because of the Hougyoku, but many feel that it seems like more of a possiblity given the events of the gaiden thus far. Would it raise questions like why Urahara would still have the Hougyoku in his possesison in the present if SS knew about it? Yes, it would raise such logic questions, but the gaiden has already raised other logical questions like why SS would be completely clueless about Aizen if Urahara, Tessai, and the vizards all knew he was evil. Does it make sense for all of them to have kept quiet about this for the next 100 years? If any of them ever brought it up, does it make sense for everyone else in SS to just completely ignore them and forget everything to act completely shocked by Aizen's actions 100 years later?

As for the Hougyoku, Aizen forced it into operation. I'll have to re-check whether he actually stated that using his double-captain reiatsu brought the Hougyoku to 100% or if it just temporarily awakened it. (They are not necessarily the same thing, and you should not just assume that they are.) Plus, Urahara is the creator of the Hougyoku and may know more about it than Aizen. Seeing Urahara use the Hougyoku is interesting as we get to see the person who should know the most about it use it, and then we can compare this use to Aizen's use of it. If it reacts just the same, then our enthusiasm was wasted; if not, then we get to see something new.

iorinyc
June 16, 2008, 10:01 PM
Anything could be possible but my 2 situation seems to flow with what Kubo explained during SS arc by using Aize as the narrator.

The questions you say the gaiden pose are good but Urahara have nooo way to prove Aizen guilty so that's probably the reason Aizen will be innocent and no will believe Urahara.

Aizen did bring hogokyu back to 100% power thus came Wonderwice. Also Aizen stated that Urahara don't know the time when hogokyu will be FULLY awaken because Urahara never used it. So lets see if the next chap proves Aizen wrong. BUt the point is Aizen did forcibly bring the hogokyu to 100% power. You should check it just incase.

Saifi
June 16, 2008, 11:10 PM
i thought orihime rejecting the seal on the hogyoku was an essential reason why she was kidnapped by aizen , since he wanted it reverted to its original form before urahara added any preventive measures to its power

iorinyc
June 17, 2008, 01:56 AM
I'll look for that link and post it. I'm pretty sure I'm right.

bigbyte
June 17, 2008, 01:58 AM
Anything could be possible but my 2 situation seems to flow with what Kubo explained during SS arc by using Aize as the narrator.

The questions you say the gaiden pose are good but Urahara have nooo way to prove Aizen guilty so that's probably the reason Aizen will be innocent and no will believe Urahara.

Aizen did bring hogokyu back to 100% power thus came Wonderwice. Also Aizen stated that Urahara don't know the time when hogokyu will be FULLY awaken because Urahara never used it. So lets see if the next chap proves Aizen wrong. BUt the point is Aizen did forcibly bring the hogokyu to 100% power. You should check it just incase.

No, he said that even Urahara doesn't know that hougyoku would exhibit same properties as it would if it were fully awakened, if it temporarily fuses with someone having 2x captain's power. CH229, p15 (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-229/page015.html)
How would it affect the user is not clear. May be it puts a lot of strain on the user but aizen, being god-like, is able to handle it.

iorinyc
June 17, 2008, 02:37 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/15/

Right here. I was right. Aizen did use a 100% FULL POWER hogokyu to make Wonderwice and that hogokyu temporarily went to 100% by merging with Aizen because he had twice as much spirit power as a normal captain.

So, like I said before we have seen fully awakened hogokyu in use. If you go back a page, you can see that Aizen states Urahara never used it so I'm kind of skeptic about the next chapter because I'll doubt we'll see Urahara using it.

Grimjaww
June 17, 2008, 02:59 AM
Well the reason why Urahara was exiled is soon to come, and as for Tessai, it's most likely because he used the forbidden incantation to teleport them, which is a bull shit reason. At this point since Urahara already has the hougoyku made, Aizen could easily go to all the other captains and tell them Urahara is the one who was responsible for all the incidents. He has everyone in his base, they are in the process of hollowfication, and he has the hougyoku close to him.

Freeloadersan
June 17, 2008, 03:51 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/15/

Right here. I was right. Aizen did use a 100% FULL POWER hogokyu to make Wonderwice and that hogokyu temporarily went to 100% by merging with Aizen because he had twice as much spirit power as a normal captain.

So, like I said before we have seen fully awakened hogokyu in use. If you go back a page, you can see that Aizen states Urahara never used it so I'm kind of skeptic about the next chapter because I'll doubt we'll see Urahara using it.

I interpret Aizen saying only that Urahara never released the hougyoku from its seal he doesn't really say that he never used it before he sealed it. Although he does say that he sealed right after making it , but we can't really say how much time "right after" is.

k#16
June 17, 2008, 07:51 AM
So Urahara is going to use the hogokyu to heal the soon-to-be-vizards, someone is going to see them, and they will get banned... so, what will happen when they find the 5th division vice-captain badge aizen dropped there after Urahara's attack? won't that be an evidence that aizen was involved in all this chaos? how will he be able to leave free of guilt?

Kaim
June 17, 2008, 10:12 AM
So Urahara is going to use the hogokyu to heal the soon-to-be-vizards, someone is going to see them, and they will get banned... so, what will happen when they find the 5th division vice-captain badge aizen dropped there after Urahara's attack? won't that be an evidence that aizen was involved in all this chaos? how will he be able to leave free of guilt?

If they will find any evidence against Aizen he'll probably use his lame-ass zanpakuto.

thillomann
June 17, 2008, 10:46 AM
The gigai makes a soul repear turn into a human and they will never get their power back. So if you look at it from this perspective Aizen was right. Urahara did get banished for creating the gigai. Unless the SS was not privy of the hogokyu, which I'm highly skeptic off.


Now it's clear. Urahara invented an gigai to turn shinigami into humans to help isshin who fell in love with an human.:p
That still leaves the question how urahara get along with aizen till that time.

And one more thing:
I came up with another idea. what if Aizen is just the slave of his Zanpakuto, i mean it's not him who is uber it's his sword and we know these swords have their own personality:D

iorinyc
June 17, 2008, 03:22 PM
Freeloadersan, if you go back a page Aizen said that only way someone to tell if the hogokyu is awakened or not is by using it and he said Urahara haven't used it befor because it was sealed right after it was made. He's actually right because in the previous chap when Urahara pulled out the hogokyu, you can see the hogokyu is already inside a barriar. So I doubt Urahara will actually use the hogokyu. My prediction is that the Vizards will gain control of their hollows and there would be no need to use the hogokyu.

Thilloman, I like your theory about Aizen being manipulated by his uber zanpakto because that can be the case considering Miriyu bankai forcibly turned on him and he put a self destruct button in there. For him to put a self destruct button in his sword can only conclude that zanpaktous can turn on its wielder.

Tsukisama
June 17, 2008, 03:33 PM
And one more thing:
I came up with another idea. what if Aizen is just the slave of his Zanpakuto, i mean it's not him who is uber it's his sword and we know these swords have their own personality:D

The zanpakutou is connected to soul of the shinigami. It is a manifestation of the shinigami's inner power. So, if the zanpakutou is uber, then it also says something about the qualities of Aizen as well.

While it is possible that Kyouka Suigetsu is controlling Aizen (which is definitely possible when you consider the possibility of KS's personality being similar to Aizen's), I hope that this is not the case. It would be rather lame if Aizen's actions somehow become excusable later on by finding out that he was a victim this entire time. Aizen is great as a master villain, and he should stay a master villain IMO.
[hr]

Freeloadersan, if you go back a page Aizen said that only way someone to tell if the hogokyu is awakened or not is by using it and he said Urahara haven't used it befor because it was sealed right after it was made. He's actually right because in the previous chap when Urahara pulled out the hogokyu, you can see the hogokyu is already inside a barriar. So I doubt Urahara will actually use the hogokyu. My prediction is that the Vizards will gain control of their hollows and there would be no need to use the hogokyu.

Thilloman, I like your theory about Aizen being manipulated by his uber zanpakto because that can be the case considering Miriyu bankai forcibly turned on him and he put a self destruct button in there. For him to put a self destruct button in his sword can only conclude that zanpaktous can turn on its wielder.

I would also like to see the vizards tame their hollows on their own, eliminating the need for Urahara to act. We will just have to see about that. :hbunny

As for the zanpakutou attacking the master, I don't think that Mayuri's bankai attacking Mayuri is the best example. The reason it did that was because the big caterpillar-baby ate Szayel and somehow Szayel was able to take control of it from the inside. Mayuri in his foresight had prepared for the event that his zanpakutou ever turned against him, but in this case, it likely did not betray him of its own accord and we should not assume that his statement means that zanpakutou necessarily can turn against their owners of their own will, since he could have just been talking about whether a situation forced his bankai against him like the situation he was in. (Although I also think that it is possible for zanpakutou to perhaps attack their owners, it would still be wrong to jump to conclusions about Mayuri's statement.)

iorinyc
June 17, 2008, 03:52 PM
Tsuka, I'm privy of the fact that Miyuri bankai attacked him due to the Espada controlling it thus I put the word "forcibly" in my sentence. The reason I gave Miyuri as an example was not due to the fact that his bankai attacked him rather him planting a self destruct button in his sword before hand. For Miyuri to plant a self destruct button in his swrd, it can only mean that Miyuri had doubts about his zanpaktou's loyalty thus, concluding that zanpaktou can turn on its wielder.

Tsukisama
June 17, 2008, 04:07 PM
Tsuka, I'm privy of the fact that Miyuri bankai attacked him due to the Espada controlling it thus I put the word "forcibly" in my sentence. The reason I gave Miyuri as an example was not due to the fact that his bankai attacked him rather him planting a self destruct button in his sword before hand. For Miyuri to plant a self destruct button in his swrd, it can only mean that Miyuri had doubts about his zanpaktou's loyalty thus, concluding that zanpaktou can turn on its wielder.

Or it could mean that he was preparing for the event that someone were to force his zanpakutou to attack him, as was the case when his bankai attacked him. All I was saying is that having a self-destruct switch does not necessarily mean that zanpakutou are known to be able to turn against their masters of their own free will.

iorinyc
June 17, 2008, 04:28 PM
Are you listening to yourself, dude? People specially like Miyuri don't put a self destruct button in something so sometime in the future if SOME ONE out of the blue turn their own sword against them. Its very illogical to think that and the probability of that is very low. The only logical reason you can conclude from that is zanpaktyou can turn on its wielder by itself or by another force thus Miyuri put the self destruct button in it.

bigbyte
June 17, 2008, 04:29 PM
I would also like to see the vizards tame their hollows on their own, eliminating the need for Urahara to act. We will just have to see about that.

I think this has been discussed before (although there is no proof for what I am about to say): hougyoku will be used to stabilize physical (i.e. spiritual) composition. it does not grant mental control over the inner hollow. they will have to do the inner battle regardless of whether hougyoku is used or not.

gold349
June 17, 2008, 04:45 PM
Tsuka, I'm privy of the fact that Miyuri bankai attacked him due to the Espada controlling it thus I put the word "forcibly" in my sentence. The reason I gave Miyuri as an example was not due to the fact that his bankai attacked him rather him planting a self destruct button in his sword before hand. For Miyuri to plant a self destruct button in his swrd, it can only mean that Miyuri had doubts about his zanpaktou's loyalty thus, concluding that zanpaktou can turn on its wielder.


I think someone like Miyuri is beyond twisted, he blew up a few of his subordinate to try and accomplish his goal. He may have put a self destruct button in his zanpaktou on purpose using it , even destroying it if it meant improvement in his chance of succeeding in his gaol. He was willing to sacrifice his daughter in the fight with Ishida, the other zanpaktou we have seen are loyal to the owner 'cus they are linked to each other, I don't think miyuri cares for himself much, he knows his capability and potential, he even inflicted himself harm and turned into liquid to escape to fight another day, so I just think its Miyuri only who thinks that way of himself his zanpaktou and his subordinates.

iorinyc
June 17, 2008, 04:48 PM
Sure he would do that but the probability of him putting self destruct in his sword for a FIGHT is wayyyyyy low.

someguy0830
June 17, 2008, 06:53 PM
Mayuri likes to cover all the angles. Why wouldn't he plan for bodily takeover?

iorinyc
June 17, 2008, 07:16 PM
That's absurd. If that's the case then he should have had something for the Quincy. Or its like me saying Miyuri before facing Ishida randomly put a body armor on himself so the arrows won't pierce just incase in future he would ever go up against a Quincy.

Tsukisama
June 17, 2008, 07:45 PM
Iorinyc, you really need to be a bit more polite. Although I am sure that you feel very strongly about your opinion, it is not the only correct idea. Mayuri could have put a self-destruct button on his zanpakutou for any of numerous reasons.

It is one thing to have an opinion and then provide arguments to support, and it is another thing to be obstinate and rude to others who have views different from your own. Rude posts are not tolerated here at MH, especially not in the Bleach section; so, please try to be a bit more thoughtful with the way you express your opinions in the future.

someguy0830
June 17, 2008, 07:59 PM
That's absurd. If that's the case then he should have had something for the Quincy. Or its like me saying Miyuri before facing Ishida randomly put a body armor on himself so the arrows won't pierce just incase in future he would ever go up against a Quincy.What Tsuki said. Mayuri was prepared for the Quincy. He knew what Quincy could do and knew how to dodge the attacks. He was not prepared for the Quincy trick he had never before seen.

Doombot
June 17, 2008, 08:19 PM
Would be funny as hell if Mayuri was the first guy to counter Aizen. Still Kubo is like trying to keep those 2 away from each other. Smells fishy eh? I mean Mayuri was recovering the first time in SS and now he is trapped in HM.

Tsukisama
June 17, 2008, 08:35 PM
Would be funny as hell if Mayuri was the first guy to counter Aizen. Still Kubo is like trying to keep those 2 away from each other. Smells fishy eh? I mean Mayuri was recovering the first time in SS and now he is trapped in HM.

Not really. It would be a difficult match-up trying to cater to both of their fighting styles in the same fight. Could imagine the trouble Kubo could get himself in plotwise if Mayuri actually set his mind to trying to counter Aizen?

Mayuri could actually pose a threat to Aizen if he were to seriously try to put his intelligence against him IMO. I could easily see Mayuri inventing something that would alter his own consciousness to render KS's hypnosis useless, but that is not good for the story.

Mayuri should not be the one to defeat Aizen, and he probably should not be directly involved in his defeat. This seems more of a task for Ichigo, Urahara, characters who have had interactions with Aizen and who don't have questionable morality like Kurotsuchi.

iorinyc
June 17, 2008, 08:40 PM
My bad if I was being rude, surely didn't mean it. Miyuri sure could have put a self destruct button for numerous of reasons but the point is that he need a REASON to put in the self destruct button. He couldn't just randomly put in the button hoping that it would come in handy sometime in the future rather something happened that forced him to put that button in his sowrd.

Also SOMEGUY like you said that Miyuri was prepared for something he have ALREADY SEEN but not something he haven't seen before. So the only reason for him to put the self destruct button is that he have seen his sword turn on him otheriwse he wouldn't have never put the self destruct button in his sword.

Tsukisama
June 17, 2008, 08:44 PM
My bad if I was being rude, surely didn't mean it. Miyuri sure could have put a self destruct button for numerous of reasons but the point is that he need a REASON to put in the self destruct button. He couldn't just randomly put in the button hoping that it would come in handy sometime in the future rather something happened that forced him to put that button in his sowrd.

Why not? Mayuri is someone who is very calculating and may have just been preparing for the event. Does it mean that he will ever need to use it? No, but he would be ready. I can't imagine why Mayuri would have thought to have Nemu filled with that superhuman drug in the event that someone invaded her body, but he did. He was prepared for that event. It is not out of the realm of possibility.

someguy0830
June 17, 2008, 08:54 PM
Also SOMEGUY like you said that Miyuri was prepared for something he have ALREADY SEEN but not something he haven't seen before. So the only reason for him to put the self destruct button is that he have seen his sword turn on him otheriwse he wouldn't have never put the self destruct button in his sword.And he knows that it's possible to control things though outside forces. Soul Candy is specifically designed to do this. It was a possibility he prepared for, not a previous occurrence he adapted to.

iorinyc
June 17, 2008, 08:57 PM
Soul candy is design to control zanpaktous? Like you said Miyuri couldn't prepare for something he haven't experienced thus by using deductive reasoning one can conclude he couldn't have put a self destruct button in his sword unless he have previously experienced his sword turning on him.

someguy0830
June 17, 2008, 09:07 PM
Soul Candy is designed to control a body. His bankai is a giant body. And now you're twisting my words to suit your position. He was prepared for a Quincy. He wasn't prepared when that Quincy did something no Quincy had done before. He prepared for the possibility of bodily takeover. Nothing more to it. You're trying desperately to invent a reason when the obvious is staring you straight in the face. Mayuri is a scientist, so he prepares for possible outcomes.

Freeloadersan
June 17, 2008, 09:32 PM
Freeloadersan, if you go back a page Aizen said that only way someone to tell if the hogokyu is awakened or not is by using it and he said Urahara haven't used it befor because it was sealed right after it was made. He's actually right because in the previous chap when Urahara pulled out the hogokyu, you can see the hogokyu is already inside a barriar. So I doubt Urahara will actually use the hogokyu. My prediction is that the Vizards will gain control of their hollows and there would be no need to use the hogokyu.

Well Urahara could have used it in the 9 year gap that we had a few chapters ago. Also if It's under a barrier already does he plan on helping the Vizards three months from now. And if this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.11/19/) is a barrier then it looks alot different from this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/21/) barrier. So it could be something different. I wouldn't mind the Vizards regaining control by themselves, but I think Urahara has used the Hougyoku at least once .

iorinyc
June 17, 2008, 09:50 PM
Link to where it says Sould Candy controls body? Someguy, you do realize what you're saying is the samething what I have said? Miyuri was "PREPARED" for the Quincy attacks that he have EXPERIENCED BEFORE but not the new crap Ishida pulled out. By using this example to back up my premise of Miyuri ONLY PREPARING for something beforehand if he has EXPERIENCED it in the past. Meaning....he must have experienced the betrayal of his sword before for him to put a self destruct button in there.

I'm actually using the manga to back up my thesis while you're just coming up with random theories.

notBowen
June 17, 2008, 10:31 PM
Soul candy is design to control zanpaktous? Like you said Miyuri couldn't prepare for something he haven't experienced thus by using deductive reasoning one can conclude he couldn't have put a self destruct button in his sword unless he have previously experienced his sword turning on him.
Ha, if Mayuri learned everything the hard way he'd be dead by now. Of all the characters to deem incapable of prophylactic moves, Mayuri is the last one I'd choose.

iorinyc
June 17, 2008, 10:38 PM
I'm just making an analogy by comparing 2 events in the manga and came to that conclusion rather then just stating what I think might be true.

Btw I never excluded the chance of him just randomly preparing for the worst rather the probability of him doing that is LOW.

The Last Uchiha
June 17, 2008, 11:20 PM
If I have to choose an Aizen acomplice yet to be revealed, I go with Unohana.

She has an alibi everytime Aizen turns on SS. The first time she asks to go to the Vizard rescue but its denied. Then she is the only one to find out Aizen was still alive. She is quiet, reserved and always in public, perfect back-up spy to be left in SS. And now that she is in Hueco Mudo, she has a chance to kick Shinigami ass.

But lets face it she is the sweetest lady around. But if you want a story twist, not even Shyamalan could come up with this shit. :D

AngryChubbs
June 17, 2008, 11:31 PM
shamalan couldnt come up with a good movie if spielberg threw it at his face and bold letters on it saying its a good movie.

(saw the happening...very very dissapointed at how bad it was)


but lets get back on track...i think that urahara still wont have to use the hyoguka or whatever since the viazards were talking about how long it took all of them to overcome their inner hollows...unless thats what the thing does.

bigbyte
June 17, 2008, 11:35 PM
Link to where it says Sould Candy controls body? Someguy, you do realize what you're saying is the samething what I have said? Miyuri was "PREPARED" for the Quincy attacks that he have EXPERIENCED BEFORE but not the new crap Ishida pulled out. By using this example to back up my premise of Miyuri ONLY PREPARING for something beforehand if he has EXPERIENCED it in the past. Meaning....he must have experienced the betrayal of his sword before for him to put a self destruct button in there.

I'm actually using the manga to back up my thesis while you're just coming up with random theories.

or heard story about another shinigami's sword probably involving at least shikai.

kaitendragon
June 17, 2008, 11:55 PM
I'm with the people who think Urahara was more Surprised than scared. Gin's power seems to be unknown, and I think Gin likes it like that. Remember that when Gin was fighting Hitsugaya, he shattered Hitsugaya's Shikai with his zanpakuto in its sealed form, without much effort, and nearly one-shotted Hitsugaya (he barely dodged the shot in time, and his shikai alone almost broke Matsumoto's sword).

And then he paralyzed everyone on Soukyoku-hill with his spiritual pressure alone. Gin is difficult to place for me though, but definitely someone you can see being stronger than your average captain.

Tousen, I don't really see being that strong. Nothing he's done thus far has been supportive of him being strong. The only thing he did that was remotely impressive, was sliced off Grimmjow's Arm. But since we didn't see them fight it out, we don't know if he was just lucky, or if he really is stronger than Grimmjow.

Tessai seems too loyal to be a traitor, and regardless of his actions in the Gaiden, so far, he doesn't strike me as anyone suspicious. I'm most interested in seeing how Aizen explains away all these incidents. I do believe he sets up Urahara to take the fall, but after Urahara saves all the Vizard, I really have to wonder what stops them from giving Aizen away. I'm sure Soul Society wouldn't outright banish them, at least not without first giving them a moment to explain what happened.

Not to mention, if they believe Urahara did all this without their knowledge, then they would seem like Victims, and not conspirators, and thus would be given even more of a chance to explain the situation.

So it will be interesting to see how this plays out. The only thing I can think of, to keep the Vizard all quiet, is for Aizen to cast his Hypnosis on everyone, to make them think the Vizard are all dead right now, and not be able to see or hear them, so that they can't give him away. Then all thats left, is to somehow shut up Urahara and Tessai.

I agree that Tousen is not strong at all. He couldn't do shit against Zaraki after a short while with his bankai, and his shikai's bazillion blades only 2-3 piereced Zaraki, which was standing still. BUT the main evidence of him being a weakling is when he slices of grimmjaws hand. When Grimmjaw prepares to slice his ass up Aizen says if you "HURT" or damage or what ever it was to Kaname i can't forgive you...which STRONGLY implies Tousen can not fend for himself against Grimmjaw. That weakling who attacks from behind like a p***y
[hr]

Second! But I dont remember him shattering Hitsugaya's Shikai, just nearly poking him in the eye. Gin is supposed to be a genius, so he must be better than average captains by now.

Tousen on the other hand is only good for his cheap bankai. If he was in the mood to kill, it would be pretty easy for him to kill someone who has not experienced his bankai before. It is pretty much the same as Aizens shikai but stops short at recreating the senses.

Ya i agree, Gin is a genius but so is Hitsugaya. I think you guys are forgetting that Hitsugay is still a baby in diapers compared to all the other captains, His body is so weak he even has a time limit on his bankai which he developed early. If Hitsugaya becomes the same age as Aizen or Gin, his ability could rival Yamamotos since he has the strongest opposite zanpaktou. And Gin had quite some difficulty stopping Hitsugays shikai which caused Gin to lose the left sleeve of his robe, and even pushed Gin to use a cheap trick to stop Hitsugaya since he was haveing trouble fighting him directly. I'm not a big fan of Hitsugaya but giveing the little guy some credit he was in diapers when most of the shinigamis were vice-captains or just shinigami's such as Matsumoto or Renji, and now he is a fairly powerful captain above many people that were shinigami's when he was in diapers. He is even strong than some of the weaker captains like TOUSEN
[hr]

Yea true. Aizen only left cuz he had better things to do. Aizen >> Urahara from day one in the gaiden. Also, Urahara looked as if he was in shock after experiencing Aizen's massive riatsu

Who cares if Urahara is in shock or not, Ukitake was OBVIOUSLY in shock when he first expirenced Ichigo's Reitsu which is CLEARLY captain levesl but that doesn't atomatically mean that Ichigo > Ukitake. Especially when Ukitake first met Ichigo

bigbyte
June 18, 2008, 12:34 AM
I agree that Tousen is not strong at all. He couldn't do shit against Zaraki after a short while with his bankai, and his shikai's bazillion blades only 2-3 piereced Zaraki, which was standing still. BUT the main evidence of him being a weakling is when he slices of grimmjaws hand. When Grimmjaw prepares to slice his ass up Aizen says if you "HURT" or damage or what ever it was to Kaname i can't forgive you...which STRONGLY implies Tousen can not fend for himself against Grimmjaw. That weakling who attacks from behind like a p***y
<hr noshade size="1">


Ya i agree, Gin is a genius but so is Hitsugaya. I think you guys are forgetting that Hitsugay is still a baby in diapers compared to all the other captains, His body is so weak he even has a time limit on his bankai which he developed early. If Hitsugaya becomes the same age as Aizen or Gin, his ability could rival Yamamotos since he has the strongest opposite zanpaktou. And Gin had quite some difficulty stopping Hitsugays shikai which caused Gin to lose the left sleeve of his robe, and even pushed Gin to use a cheap trick to stop Hitsugaya since he was haveing trouble fighting him directly. I'm not a big fan of Hitsugaya but giveing the little guy some credit he was in diapers when most of the shinigamis were vice-captains or just shinigami's such as Matsumoto or Renji, and now he is a fairly powerful captain above many people that were shinigami's when he was in diapers. He is even strong than some of the weaker captains like TOUSEN
<hr noshade size="1">


Who cares if Urahara is in shock or not, Ukitake was OBVIOUSLY in shock when he first expirenced Ichigo's Reitsu which is CLEARLY captain levesl but that doesn't atomatically mean that Ichigo > Ukitake. Especially when Ukitake first met Ichigo

no it doesn't imply anything. according to this translation (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-213/page017.html) it says "assault," which only implies that the action would considered an act of rebellion which few forgive. I agree that out of the three guys tousen is probably the weakest but IMO he is strong enough to pwn anyone below ulq and at least beat ulq without getting hurt too much.

KyanWan
June 18, 2008, 12:44 AM
no it doesn't imply anything. according to this translation (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-213/page017.html) it says "assault," which only implies that the action would considered an act of rebellion which few forgive. I agree that out of the three guys tousen is probably the weakest but IMO he is strong enough to pwn anyone below ulq and at least beat ulq without getting hurt too much.

WHA?

Fight Ulquiorra without getting hurt? I highly doubt that.

Zaraki had a "tough" time with Nnoitra - well - putting aside that he was screwing around for the most part ...

but, he did have *some* trouble with him.

Zaraki > Tosen

Zaraki > Nnoitra

Nnoitra > Grimmjow by, well - a lot.

I don't think Tosen could even *cut* (scratch) Ulquiorra - let alone beat him.

Starzen
June 18, 2008, 01:08 AM
tousen is a weakling and aizen said that should GJ attack him he himself will kill him, as in tousen is such a reject that he needs aizens protection, if you can still remember, his strongest shikai attack couldn't even scratch zaraki.

bittman
June 18, 2008, 01:36 AM
Oh no, DONT INVITE THE TOUSEN ARGUEMENT INTO ANOTHER THREAD! D<

Like it isn't talked about four times weekly anyway ~_~

In other news, thank god the past arc is over. As nice as it was, Ulq vs Ichigo already.

trigonoah
June 18, 2008, 02:00 AM
i too question tousen's strength. compared to the other captain class folk he may compare as a weakling (especially when compared to aizen and gin), but something tells me that we have yet to see all that tousen has to offer. looking back at the most recent chapter (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.11/03/), when aizen and co are found tousen volunteers to kill both urahara and tessai. he obviously knows that they're captain level, so it makes me question if we've yet to see his real power. sure, he probably just might have used his cheap tricks, but that would have never worked on these two so you never know.....

anyways, i know this is the wrong place to be asking this question but i'm just gonna go ahead anyway since it's been bothering me for a long time now. ichigo, rukia, hitsugaya, matsumoto, and just about every other shinigami who's every ventured to the real world in a human body (gigai) all have to remove they're spirits from the body in order to use they're shinigami abilities. so, in the present time line, just what the hell are urahara, tessai, yoruichi, and the vaizards!? i originally assumed that they are all in gigai since humans can see them, but at the same time things don't add up. they can use they're zanpakuto without having to remove they're soul from the bodies, tessai can use kidou, and they can all control they're reiatsu in they're present state. are they in a special kind of gigai or something? am i just thinking too hard about continuity in the story? somebody help please

--Sushi--
June 18, 2008, 03:38 AM
Zaraki > Tosen

Zaraki > Nnoitra

Nnoitra > Grimmjow by, well - a lot.

I have to dissagree. Ichigo was jsut beaten up, so Nnoitra kicked Ichi'S ass.
Nnoitra himself said,that he doesn'T care if the opponent is damaged or not.
He just waited for Ichigo to use up his strenght and stamina.
Nnoitra is just gay.

And i do think, that Tousen is strong. I don't see any way for Ichigo and co to beat his Bankai.
Kenpachi ist just ridiculous strong. But Ichigo can'T win with the same method i guess.

maraxusofk
June 18, 2008, 04:04 AM
shamalan couldnt come up with a good movie if spielberg threw it at his face and bold letters on it saying its a good movie.

(saw the happening...very very dissapointed at how bad it was)


agreed. posionous wind? honestly thats the cheesiest plot twist ever. no wonder there werent any mention of it in commercials.

i like to think urahara learned how to control his hollow in some way cuz as a scientist and as a fighter, him learning how to strengthen his soul and not doing it while learning the process necessary to make the hougkyou (sp?) is kinda rediculous.

gold349
June 18, 2008, 04:18 AM
I have been wondering since last chapter were I had heard someone use that same spell aizen uses to block Tessai attack, bakuda 81 "dankou" it was used by Byakua (spelling) when saving Rukia he used it as a way to block Espada no7 attack http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/302/07/.

KyanWan
June 18, 2008, 02:20 PM
Zaraki > Tosen

Zaraki > Nnoitra

Nnoitra > Grimmjow by, well - a lot.

I have to dissagree. Ichigo was jsut beaten up, so Nnoitra kicked Ichi'S ass.
Nnoitra himself said,that he doesn'T care if the opponent is damaged or not.
He just waited for Ichigo to use up his strenght and stamina.
Nnoitra is just gay.

And i do think, that Tousen is strong. I don't see any way for Ichigo and co to beat his Bankai.
Kenpachi ist just ridiculous strong. But Ichigo can'T win with the same method i guess.

Kenpachi is crazy strong - but he's also crazy. He holds back hardcore, even to the last second.

And I never said Nnoitra wasn't a real scumbag, BUT, I do think if he and Grimm got in a fight when equally refreshed and healed - Nnoitra would probably win.

The guy's like Kenpachi - big strength - and he fights to win. He don't care about honor, rules, nothin - just killin'.

--Sushi--
June 18, 2008, 02:41 PM
Actually i do believe that Kenpachi cares about honour.
He wants to fight his opponents equal, he wants to enjoy fighting. And to enjoy it to its maximum extends he has his Eye-patch and tinkerbells just to weaken himselfs.
Nnoitra just wants to win, no matter which cheap tricks he has to use.
I think that Kubo made Kenpachi just too strong. Don'T know how Ichi could beat him.

walkie
June 18, 2008, 03:04 PM
Actually i do believe that Kenpachi cares about honour.
He wants to fight his opponents equal, he wants to enjoy fighting. And to enjoy it to its maximum extends he has his Eye-patch and tinkerbells just to weaken himselfs.
Nnoitra just wants to win, no matter which cheap tricks he has to use.
I think that Kubo made Kenpachi just too strong. Don'T know how Ichi could beat him.

one of the reasons how ichi could beat kenpachi was:

(dont remember all correct words) zangetsu said kenpaichi's sword is shouting/crying. since kenpachi doesnt acknowledge his sword, their powers crushes with each other instead of joining together...so at that time we can assume kenpachi couldnt hit ichi with full power...

--Sushi--
June 18, 2008, 04:14 PM
ye could be true, and Kenpachi was just fighting with one hand (which is a lame excusion lol)
In the other thread, someone doubted Aizens strenght, cuz we didn'T see any of his skills.
BUT he has some :
-he blocedk Ichis Bankai-Sword with just one finger
-he blocked high level Spells easily
-he defeated Hitsuyagas Bankai with one strike
-he has uber-Reiatsu
-he looks like Superman lol

Boagrious
June 19, 2008, 12:25 AM
ye could be true, and Kenpachi was just fighting with one hand (which is a lame excusion lol)
In the other thread, someone doubted Aizens strenght, cuz we didn'T see any of his skills.
BUT he has some :
-he blocedk Ichis Bankai-Sword with just one finger
-he blocked high level Spells easily
-he defeated Hitsuyagas Bankai with one strike
-he has uber-Reiatsu
-he looks like Superman lol

That means he will end up on a wheel chair and then die. Ichigo is gonna kick Aizens Booty.

yon
June 19, 2008, 12:55 AM
That means he will end up on a wheel chair and then die. Ichigo is gonna kick Aizens Booty.
:(how ironic

walkie
June 19, 2008, 06:51 AM
ye could be true, and Kenpachi was just fighting with one hand (which is a lame excusion lol)
In the other thread, someone doubted Aizens strenght, cuz we didn'T see any of his skills.
BUT he has some :
-he blocedk Ichis Bankai-Sword with just one finger
-he blocked high level Spells easily
-he defeated Hitsuyagas Bankai with one strike
-he has uber-Reiatsu
-he looks like Superman lol

well all of them may be an illusion ;) stopping ichi and hitsuyaga thing are definitely illuson...

poobert
June 19, 2008, 07:03 AM
has it been confirmed that this was the last back story chapter? I am too scared to look at the spoiler page.

If you don't want to check the spoiler page, check here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29387).

Thanks!

maxik90
June 19, 2008, 08:43 AM
maybe bleach is goning to be intresting on how aizen get almost all the captian to be vizards, that's maybe why the kurosaki have been expel from soul society along with the other catian who seen aizen power and betrayal......

maraxusofk
June 19, 2008, 05:26 PM
well all of them may be an illusion ;) stopping ichi and hitsuyaga thing are definitely illuson...

stopping ichigo cant be an illusion cuz ichigo never saw azien release (sounds kinda dirty lol)