Pain Vs Sasuke (after the match with Itachi)

[Shaunlim]

If the genjutsu was instantaneous, it would have ended before Killer Bee had landed on the ground and broke it.

1. We have no idea whether the genjutsu ended by then or not. It could have been a plan by Killer Bee to trick Sasuke or he was just affected by Tsukiyomi just like Sasuke and Kakashi was. As in he was exhausted or stunned for awhile.
[hr]

No, there are not, if it was something different, Kishi would of said so...




No, its not...

Chidori is the original name, Rakiri is the nick name recived after he cut lighting with it.

1. Not necessarily....Sasuke used a genjutsu to get some info out of that fodder nin. Yet it didn't have any names to it. And I'm pretty sure it isn't Tsukiyomi.

2. Check DB, different name, different rank. Meaning different jutsu in a sense.

[Askia32]

1: After the genjutsu ended, Kakashi and Asuma comment that only a split-second had occurred in real life.

2: I have proof that what Sasuke used is not Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi has consistantly been described as an instantaneous genjutsu. Was the genjutsu that Sasuke used on Killer Bee instantaneous? No. Therefore, Sasuke's unamed genjutsu cannot be stated to have been Tsukuyomi.



You're proof?


**1** (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/17-18/)
**2** (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/388/10/)
**3** (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/388/10/)

It's obvious. If it was a technique that looks that similar to Tsukiyomi, but different, Kishi would of found a way to let us know. Also, Bee breaking out of this, an my opinion, is to show case that Naruto will eventually learn to do the same.

[Franckie]

1. We have no idea whether the genjutsu ended by then or not. It could have been a plan by Killer Bee to trick Sasuke or he was just affected by Tsukiyomi just like Sasuke and Kakashi was. As in he was exhausted or stunned for awhile.

Killer Bee: "I can't move." (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/09/) He didn't break the genjutsu until after he hit the ground.


**1** (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/17-18/)
**2** (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/388/10/)
**3** (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/388/10/)

It's obvious. If it was a technique that looks that similar to Tsukiyomi, but different, Kishi would of found a way to let us know. Also, Bee breaking out of this, an my opinion, is to show case that Naruto will eventually learn to do the same.

Kishi found a way to let us know when the genjutsu was shown to not be instantaneous and Killer Bee broke it. Also, Bee breaking out of this, is to show case that Naruto will eventually learn to do the same since he's still weak against it.

[Askia32]

1. We have no idea whether the genjutsu ended by then or not. It could have been a plan by Killer Bee to trick Sasuke or he was just affected by Tsukiyomi just like Sasuke and Kakashi was. As in he was exhausted or stunned for awhile.
<hr noshade size="1">


1. Not necessarily....Sasuke used a genjutsu to get some info out of that fodder nin. Yet it didn't have any names to it. And I'm pretty sure it isn't Tsukiyomi.

2. Check DB, different name, different rank. Meaning different jutsu in a sense.

I dont need a DB, I go by the manga...
http://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000101902/15.jpghttp://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000101902/16-17.jpghttp://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000101912/03.jpg

[Forever_Melody]

Well you can assume it's Tsukiyomi if you want. It isn't really going to change much to the discussion at hand. For the purpose of it, we're assuming the MS genjutsu operates similarly to Tsukiyomi anyways.

I'm still wondering though, if it is useless for Kishi to name something that is the same, why does Kakashi always say "Raikiri" and why did Sasuke say "Amaterasu" when he used it if it wasn't a different move?

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

1: After the genjutsu ended, Kakashi and Asuma comment that only a split-second had occurred in real life.

2: I have proof that what Sasuke used is not Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi has consistantly been described as an instantaneous genjutsu. Was the genjutsu that Sasuke used on Killer Bee instantaneous? No. Therefore, Sasuke's unamed genjutsu cannot be stated to have been Tsukuyomi.


I think you completely misunderstanding how Tsukuyomi works. Yes it instantaneous, but only on the "outside". On the "inside" it takes 72hrs. Which means within those 72hrs the person inside Tsukuyomi can break out of it, if they can find a way. But because it instantaneous on the "outside" people on the outside can't break you out of it. To them it happen in a blink of an eye. Killerbee was able to break it on the "inside", it wasn't an outside force that break him out of it.

As for proof why it is Tsukuyomi that Sasuke use, simple: Sasuke was using Itachi's MS technique that Itachi transfer to him. The only MS genjutsu that will know to date is Tsukuyomi, add that will the fact that Sasuke was using Itachi's MS technique that Itachi transfer to him, to me that means what Sasuke used was Tsukuyomi.

[Askia32]

Killer Bee: "I can't move." (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/09/) He didn't break the genjutsu until after he hit the ground.


Or it could still be him feeling the effects of the genjutsu, like how Kakashi fell to his knees,and Sasuke dropped to his knees even after he overcame it.
(http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/388/12/)

[Forever_Melody]

Why are we arguing this anyways? Kishi hasn't disclosed whether or not the MS genjutsu Sasuke uses is Tsukiyomi so as a reader you're free to assume it is or not, end of story lol >.>

[Shaunlim]

I dont need a DB, I go by the manga...
http://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000101902/15.jpghttp://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000101902/16-17.jpghttp://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000101912/03.jpg

1. Well if that's the case, I suggest you start using DB a little. Especially on cases such as this. You are just denying the fact that Raikiri and Chidori isn't exactly the same.



Killer Bee: "I can't move." (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/09/) He didn't break the genjutsu until after he hit the ground.




1. Like I said, it could very well be the side-effects kicking in. There is no real proof on this.

[Askia32]

1. Well if that's the case, I suggest you start using DB a little. Especially on cases such as this. You are just denying the fact that Raikiri and Chidori isn't exactly the same.
.

I suggest you read the manga. It's been stated that its the same in the manga. I made it nice and convenient for you to see that the manga says its the same. There are different variations of the chidori/raikiri, but that doesn't change the fact that the chidori and raikiri are the same.

[Shaunlim]

I suggest you read the manga. It's been stated that its the same in the manga. I made it nice and convenient for you to see that the manga says its the same. There are different variations of the chidori/raikiri, but that doesn't change the fact that the chidori and raikiri are the same.

I suggest you read the DB. While it is true that manga is canon, that doesn't take anything away from the DB. It is still written by Kishi. Granted some of them might be exaggerated but most of them still stand. And like I said, while it is the same, it's still different in some sense. Like I said, you are still denying the fact that one is A ranked while the other is S ranked. And the fact that it has different names. It's like saying Oodama Rasengan is the same as Rasengan. While it is the same, it is still different in some sense.

[Askia32]

You contradict yourself. Yes, the manga is canon, which means chidori and Raikiri are the same.

If Chidori is A ranked, and Raikiri is S ranked, show me where that is even said in the databooks. Until you do that, there is no argument to be made.

[Forever_Melody]

They are the same in mechanics the databook doesn't contradict this. The databook even says that when Kakashi uses the jutsu, it's called Raikiri.

But...

The databook also classes Raikiri as S rank while Chidori is A rank. This implies probably that the version Kakashi uses of Chidori(the one referred to as Raikiri by the manga) may be more powerful than Chidori. It's essentially the same jutsu, but ofa different rank.

Just like saying Kage Bushin is A rank, but Tajuu Kage Bushin is S rank. They're the same jutsu essentially, but one has larger magnitude.

[Shaunlim]

You contradict yourself. Yes, the manga is canon, which means chidori and Raikiri are the same.

If Chidori is A ranked, and Raikiri is S ranked, show me where that is even said in the databooks. Until you do that, there is no argument to be made.

1. Please do show that. And again, like I said, it's just like Oodama rasengan and rasengan. Unless of course you want to argue that it is the same as well. It's really simple, while it is the same, it is still different in some sense.

2. http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397
http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398
http://www.leafninja.com/ninjutsu-02.php#005
http://www.leafninja.com/ninjutsu-13.php#Raikiri

[Askia32]

1. Please do show that. And again, like I said, it's just like Oodama rasengan and rasengan. Unless of course you want to argue that it is the same as well. It's really simple, while it is the same, it is still different in some sense.

2. http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397
http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398
http://www.leafninja.com/ninjutsu-02.php#005
http://www.leafninja.com/ninjutsu-13.php#Raikiri

In the databook it says "Kakashi's "Chidori" cut lightning...that legend is the origin of the name "Raikiri".", which is exactly what I said.

You do realize that those summaries of the Chidori and Raikiri are exactly the same right?

But you we're right about them being different rank which does not make sense to me.

[Shaunlim]

In the databook it says "Kakashi's "Chidori" cut lightning...that legend is the origin of the name "Raikiri".", which is exactly what I said.

You do realize that those summaries of the Chidori and Raikiri are exactly the same right?

But you we're right about them being different rank which does not make sense to me.

I know they are the same. That's why I said they are the same in some ways and different in others. It's like comparing Oodama and a regular rasengan. All that is really different is the power output.

[Forever_Melody]

But you we're right about them being different rank which does not make sense to me.

Why is Kage Bushin A rank while Tajuu Kage Bushin S rank? Essentially it's the same jutsu no?

Why is Rasengan A rank while Oodama Rasengan S rank? It's also the same jutsu.

Basically, it's the magnitude that changes for these jutsus and I'd guess the same logic applies to Raikiri & Chidori.

Remember that it's called Raikiri ONLY when Kakashi uses it. That means when you talk about Chidori, you talk the version Sasuke (and younger Kakashi) uses.

Kakashi has had the Chidori for a while so it wouldn't be impossible for him to have refined his own version over time (ex: pump more chakra into hi Chidori like Naruto pumps more chakra into Oodama Rasengan). He probably taught Sasuke the basic version of the jutsu.

[Askia32]

I know they are the same. That's why I said they are the same in some ways and different in others. It's like comparing Oodama and a regular rasengan. All that is really different is the power output.

Heh, guess we we're both right, sorry for misunderstanding you.

[Shaunlim]

Heh, guess we we're both right, sorry for misunderstanding you.

Lol it's ok. That's the whole point of debate afterall ;)

[Razh]

I can't believe there are actually 10 people who voted for Sasuke.

First of all, Sasuke would be even more confused than Jiraiya was. And would be easilly surprised.
There's no way he could last long once all 6 of them are after him.

[Raizen]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/257/07/



Difference between Sasuke's genjutsu and Itachi's genjutsu is that Sasuke's attack wasn't instantaneous.
As much as I respect you frankie, I have to disagree. Yes, tsukyomi happens in an instant but in the mind it happens in 3 days. That is why teammates cannot help in sending chakra since that takes more than a second.. However, tsukyomi is not unbreakable. Someone with an extra chakra reserve like a bijuu or senjutsu, that chakra can be used to break the tsukyomi b/c they can summon the chakra and the chakra serves as a increase (similar to chiyo and sakura) thus breaking the genjutsu. This will all happen in an instant thus fufilling the tsukyomi requirements.

Whether a powerful ninja like the 3rd, 4th, etc can break tsukyomi or not is questionable since i do not think that they have an extra chakra reserve. However, a ninja of that caliber should be able to break genjutsu. I mean i am pretty sure the 1st has encounter something like this b4

[En Yang Ji]

Certain shinobi do have 2 chakra sources, but can anyone without a sharingan, break Tsukiyomi in less than a second?

[Razh]

Certain shinobi do have 2 chakra sources, but can anyone without a sharingan, break Tsukiyomi in less than a second?

It's still a Genjutsu. A powerful one but it works on the same principle as any other.

At first I thought it wasn't Tsukuyomi. But Kishi did show only Sasuke's right eye, and after KB fell down, Sasuke put his hand over his right eye.(I won't copy links cause I'm tired, but everyone should know that it's true.)
I think a Genjutsu like Tsukuyomi would at least get a moment of recognition.
So, it was probably a foreshadowing. Don't know how else to explain it.

Oh, and even if Sasuke had Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo, he would still get beaten by Pain. Without much trouble probably.

[Forever_Melody]

Even with all 3 MS jutsus, Pain's numbers decrease the effectiveness of their power because they leave the user drained and open to attack.

If Sasuke used Amaterasu to say take out one Pain, another one could attack him from behind either while he was casting it(or making it home in like Itachi did) or in the aftermath where he's weak.

[Reenie]

The poll says it all lol. Pain would kill Sasuke 10 times over before Sasuke landed 1 killing blow.

[Raizen]

Those who voted for sasuke are clearly delusional. I understand liking a character but that is ridiculous. Even the 3rd hokage in his prime who is hailed as a GOD among shinobi would have trouble much less sasuke

@kiO. I don't understand what u mean. Ninjas only have one chakra source that they could use

[rikudou pain]

pain,he is the akatsuki leader ,sasuke is a little doggy compared to him

[WaveBossa]

Pein is a crazy mofo, sasuke can't compete w/ this guy.
Kakashi who is as strong if not stronger than sasuke is having his ass handed to him

While i agree with the first part, you must be kidding if you think kakashi is stronger than sasuke

[Raizen]

While i agree with the first part, you must be kidding if you think kakashi is stronger than sasuke
How is that not true. Kakashi has shown superior intellect, skills, and mastery of his jutsus. All sasuke has is a strong sharingan but kakashi's MS is powerful too. Look at the DB, kakashi is stronger in both DB and shown in the manga

[exdahzy]

For those 11 who voted on Sasuke, stop beeing such fanboys... This one is obvious.
There's no way that Sasuke can beat Jiraiya even, Jiraiya -might- not even need hermit mode. Sasuke can't even beat Orochimaru (only reason he won was because orochi was very sick and that was obvious). Sasuke is still very weak, now with the MS he could prolly force Jiraiya to use Hermit mode and maybe beat Orochi at full, but thats about as far as he goes at the moment until we see him fight again I guess.

[Raizen]

For those 11 who voted on Sasuke, stop beeing such fanboys... This one is obvious.
There's no way that Sasuke can beat Jiraiya even, Jiraiya -might- not even need hermit mode. Sasuke can't even beat Orochimaru (only reason he won was because orochi was very sick and that was obvious). Sasuke is still very weak, now with the MS he could prolly force Jiraiya to use Hermit mode and maybe beat Orochi at full, but thats about as far as he goes at the moment until we see him fight again I guess.
Some truth. YES!!! thank you.
Sasuke is good, but good for what? a genin. At best he is a jonin at a weaker level than kakashi

[sindergi]

Now after seeing the whole fight between Pain and Naruto I still have to say that Pain would probably beat Sasuke.
Even if Sasuke got the same information as Naruto (this are just puppets,5sec interval, ressurection-guy etc.) Pain would have won.

1. You can use genujutsus on the puppets and they have a affect.
But you have to use it on every single puppet - so is tsukoyomi "useless".
2. Sasuke can use Amatarasu - it would probably the best to use it first on
ressurection-pain BUT Pain has his I-Absorb-Every-NinjutsuChakra-BlaBla-Guy.
And maybe he can absorb Amatarasu - I think he can.......
3. Chidori ? Chidori he can defintely absorb.........
4. We dont know if the sharingan can track the real pain - but if not than is the
information that Pain is just a puppet not very helpfull for Sasuke......

[roma]

this is easy... of course Pain will win.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

this is easy... of course Pain will win.

Yea, Pain would completely molest Sasuke. He has a counter for every jutsu in Sasuke's arsenal. Even his Karin technique is no match for Pain, then again it wasn't a match for Itachi either. Besides, even Itachi took orders from Pain. Itachi vs Pain would be a much better question.

[Alterno]

There's no scenario where Sasuke could win a fight against, Pain alone. In fact he couldn't be defeated alone, during this battle 5 summoning frogs participated, Naruto had to activate sage mode 3 times and was pretty much losing until hinata appeared triggering the Kyuubi (up to 9 tails).

Sasuke so far counts with Amateratsu and Tsukiyomi, evenif we give him Susanoo he could probably defend himself for awhile againts shira tensei, but doubt he could against Chibaku Tensei. Let's say that Sasuke is not the best adversary for Pain.

[Csdabest]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB9v6o2XFbI

Muahahahahahah enjoy

[Weapon_X]

Pein would destroy him. Hell Realm could just stay back and keep resurecting the bodies if Sasuke mamanges to hit one of them or destroy them. Deva just Shinra Tensei him or Chibaku Tensei him, and then the rest would go in for the kill. We know how fast Asura Realm is when he was going to attack Tsunade. This is the guy who defeated Jiraiya, kakashi, Sasuke wouldn't have a chance. Even if me manages to use MS, can't constantly use it every minute. He'd be blind before the fight is over. Rin'negan > Sharingan.

[SuperSaiyaMan]

Pain. Sasuke isn't anywhere in his league now.

[Csdabest]

It kind of makes you wonder. Since Sasuke sharingan can see chakra in color. Would he be able to see the chakra radiating from the rods for the signal?

[Shaunlim]

Kakashi and Hyuuga doesn't see = Sasuke doesn't see. The end.

[kkck]

If the byakugan, which even has x-rays did not see the frequency, then the sharingan most certainly can't considering its insight in that department should be inferior to the byakugan.
If the fight was against just 1 body, I could see sasuke pulling it off with a reasonable amount of difficulty depending on the body, but him against all of them does not stand a chance in hell. You think sasuke vs hachibi was bad? Sasuke vs pain would make the spanking sasuke got from hachibi look like a picnic or Disney...

[Csdabest]

Kakashi and Hyuuga doesn't see = Sasuke doesn't see. The end.

Kakashi sharingan is inferior. And has demostrated it doesnt have all the abilities Sasuke and Itachi does. There werent really any Hyuuga to have gotten up close to the battle except Hinata. And Hinata is fail sauce.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Kakashi sharingan is inferior. And has demostrated it doesnt have all the abilities Sasuke and Itachi does. There werent really any Hyuuga to have gotten up close to the battle except Hinata. And Hinata is fail sauce.

Nowhere in the manga was it stated or shown that Kakashi sharingan is inferior. He have a normal Sharingan just like everyone else. His Sharingan is not a fake copy, it a really Uchiha Sharingan, so i don't understand how you came to conclusion that his sharingan is inferior. The only thing that is inferior is his body. Stop making false claims. And what abilities that Sasuke and Itachi have has Kakashi been shown not to have? Or what had Itachi and Sasuke done with their Sharingan that Kakashi tried and failed at?

[street_san]

Well, Kakashi Sharingan IS inferior to Itachi or Sasuke. When Itachi came to "attack" the village of konoha with kisame, he used the tsukiyomi on Kakashi and Kakashi wasn't able to stand or walk for at least a week (well i think it's a week)

And when Itachi fought Sasuke, Sasuke was able to overcome the Tsukiyomi. And don't tell me it's because Sasuke has been training for 3 years...Kakashi has been training all his life (and his danm older then Sasuke)

So bottom line, Kakashi Sharingan IS inferior to Sasuke or Itachi

[Forever_Melody]

Umm the first time Sasuke got hit with Tsukiyomi(at the hotel), he was also caught and couldn't escape. Arguably, he wasn't stuck at the hospital like Kakashi, but that's not due to Kakashi's Sharingan, but his body being unable to cope with the stress. One could argue Itachi didn't want to hurt his little brother either >.>

I will say this once more, Kakashi's Sharingan is NOT inferior. His right eye is a 100% pure genuine Uchiha Sharingan. It's his body that's the limiting factor and so far, the manga has only emphasized that his lack of Uchiha blood doesn't allow him to turn on/off the Sharingan as well as maintain it for prolonged periods of time.

If you doubt his eye's capacities, Itachi himself said that Kakashi's lack of an Uchiha body would prevent him from unlocking the "true" power of the Sharingan(MS) and yet, lo and ho, Kakashi has MS! :o

And despite it all, seeing chakra-wise, Kakashi's Sharingan CAN see chakra just like Sasuke & Itachi's can. It's been proven in the manga that Kakashi(or more likely Obito's (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/243/04/)) Sharingan can see chakra flow. This ability predates even before Kakashi go the eye so I doubt you'll argue he didn't unlock this power >_>

Therefore, if Kakashi did not see the chakra emanating from Pain, I see no reason Sasuke should. Ino's father said that Nagato changes the frequency of chakra constantly so maybe Sharingan's "sight" would be unable to zone in due to this ever changing frequency in the wavelength of chakra.

[SuperSaiyaMan]

Well, Kakashi Sharingan IS inferior to Itachi or Sasuke. When Itachi came to "attack" the village of konoha with kisame, he used the tsukiyomi on Kakashi and Kakashi wasn't able to stand or walk for at least a week (well i think it's a week)

And when Itachi fought Sasuke, Sasuke was able to overcome the Tsukiyomi. And don't tell me it's because Sasuke has been training for 3 years...Kakashi has been training all his life (and his danm older then Sasuke)

So bottom line, Kakashi Sharingan IS inferior to Sasuke or Itachi
If Kakashi's Sharingan is inferior to Sasuke or Itachi, why did Itachi compliment him on it? Kakashi is better using the Sharingan than most masters, as said the Databook.

The only thing that is inferior is his body, the Sharingan eats up too much of the Hatake's chakra.

[Delbi]

Umm the first time Sasuke got hit with Tsukiyomi(at the hotel), he was also caught and couldn't escape. Arguably, he wasn't stuck at the hospital like Kakashi, but that's not due to Kakashi's Sharingan, but his body being unable to cope with the stress. One could argue Itachi didn't want to hurt his little brother either >.>

I will say this once more, Kakashi's Sharingan is NOT inferior. His right eye is a 100% pure genuine Uchiha Sharingan. It's his body that's the limiting factor and so far, the manga has only emphasized that his lack of Uchiha blood doesn't allow him to turn on/off the Sharingan as well as maintain it for prolonged periods of time.

If you doubt his eye's capacities, Itachi himself said that Kakashi's lack of an Uchiha body would prevent him from unlocking the "true" power of the Sharingan(MS) and yet, lo and ho, Kakashi has MS! :o

And despite it all, seeing chakra-wise, Kakashi's Sharingan CAN see chakra just like Sasuke & Itachi's can. It's been proven in the manga that Kakashi(or more likely Obito's (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/243/04/)) Sharingan can see chakra flow. This ability predates even before Kakashi go the eye so I doubt you'll argue he didn't unlock this power >_>

Therefore, if Kakashi did not see the chakra emanating from Pain, I see no reason Sasuke should. Ino's father said that Nagato changes the frequency of chakra constantly so maybe Sharingan's "sight" would be unable to zone in due to this ever changing frequency in the wavelength of chakra.

Well in reguards to Kakashi's Sharigan being inferior or anything, it obviously is not.

However, Sasuke has shown that his sharigan is superior to Itachi's. Something about Sasuke's sharigan is very special, I mean he broke out of Tsyukiyomi with just his normal Sharigan.

Also, the Kyuubi mentioned that Sasuke's chakra was as sinister as Madara's.

Now Sasuke shouldn't be able to see Pain's chakra frequencies because his sharigan's ability to see chakra seems no different from any other sharigan's, however, their certainly is something special about Sasuke's eyes, and they have proven to be in fact superior to other sharigan eyes out their in the world.

In any event, Sasuke defeating Pain now, is highly unlikely. He'd need a hell of a lot of things to go his way, and he'd still probably die anyway.

IMO, the only characters who stand a chance against Pain are Jiraiya and Itachi. Even though Naruto won, he had to have every advantage int he world to do so, and he got extremely lucky on more than one occasion.

[Weapon_X]

Well in reguards to Kakashi's Sharigan being inferior or anything, it obviously is not.

However, Sasuke has shown that his sharigan is superior to Itachi's. Something about Sasuke's sharigan is very special, I mean he broke out of Tsyukiyomi with just his normal Sharigan.

Also, the Kyuubi mentioned that Sasuke's chakra was as sinister as Madara's.

Now Sasuke shouldn't be able to see Pain's chakra frequencies because his sharigan's ability to see chakra seems no different from any other sharigan's, however, their certainly is something special about Sasuke's eyes, and they have proven to be in fact superior to other sharigan eyes out their in the world.

In any event, Sasuke defeating Pain now, is highly unlikely. He'd need a hell of a lot of things to go his way, and he'd still probably die anyway.

IMO, the only characters who stand a chance against Pain are Jiraiya and Itachi. Even though Naruto won, he had to have every advantage int he world to do so, and he got extremely lucky on more than one occasion.

Dude, Naruto won against Pain fair and square. Defeated Asura Pein first with the Rasengan with uber high speed. Beat Human Pein using FRS, then defeated Animal Realm in Bunta's mouth before Sage Mode went out. He defeated 3 of Pein's bodies in like a matter of minutes. O.o

Then he had a excellent plan into keeping Sage Mode by leaving his clones at Myobokuzan. FRS failed to kill the Fat Pein but that was his plan and then he killed the Hell Pein. That's 4 bodies destroyed by Naruto and his thinking. Then when the Fat Pein was absorbing his chakra, Naruto knew that if he absorbs Sage Chakra, he wouldn't be able to controll it, thus he would turn into a frog. Worked and punched him and destroyed the 5th body. Don;t seen any luck so far. Obviously Naruto is going to get a few hits..he isn't invincible.

Now the 6th Pein. Deva Pein. He didn';t really have a chance against him because of Shinra Tensei and Banshou Tenin. At that time he didn;t have a plan. Deva Realm was the most troublesome out of the 6 bodies. When the Kyuubi 6 and 8 tails part was over, he had a plan into defeating the last Pein. He only had 5 seconds to d and he managed to do it. He was able to trace Negato and everything.

Just imagine if Pein fought Jiraiya as how he fought against Naruto. Shinra Tensei,Banshou Tenin and Chibak Tensei, it would be hard for Jiraiya to get out of those. So dude, can say luck helped Naruto. Naruto has already proved that he is stronger then Pein, and at the moment he is the closest person into defeating Negato. Yes Naruto may have had help from Katsuyu etc but there is nothing wrong with that, he is the one who did the fighting and the planning.

[Natoma]

Well in reguards to Kakashi's Sharigan being inferior or anything, it obviously is not.

However, Sasuke has shown that his sharigan is superior to Itachi's. Something about Sasuke's sharigan is very special, I mean he broke out of Tsyukiyomi with just his normal Sharigan.

Also, the Kyuubi mentioned that Sasuke's chakra was as sinister as Madara's.

Now Sasuke shouldn't be able to see Pain's chakra frequencies because his sharigan's ability to see chakra seems no different from any other sharigan's, however, their certainly is something special about Sasuke's eyes, and they have proven to be in fact superior to other sharigan eyes out their in the world.

In any event, Sasuke defeating Pain now, is highly unlikely. He'd need a hell of a lot of things to go his way, and he'd still probably die anyway.

IMO, the only characters who stand a chance against Pain are Jiraiya and Itachi. Even though Naruto won, he had to have every advantage int he world to do so, and he got extremely lucky on more than one occasion.

1) Everything about the Sasuke/Itachi fight is suspect because Itachi wasn't trying to beat Sasuke. He was trying to weaken him to the point where Orochimaru would be forcibly released. He was also trying to make sure that Sasuke would see all of the powers of the Mangekyo Sharingan.

If Itachi knocked Sasuke out with Tsukiyomi at the very start then there would have been no point.

So basically, your hypothesis that Sasuke's Sharingan is superior to every other Sharingan is built on a foundation of sand.

2) Chakra being more sinister doesn't mean more powerful. It just means his chakra is f*cked up and evil.

Hope this helps.

[Delbi]

1) Everything about the Sasuke/Itachi fight is suspect because Itachi wasn't trying to beat Sasuke. He was trying to weaken him to the point where Orochimaru would be forcibly released. He was also trying to make sure that Sasuke would see all of the powers of the Mangekyo Sharingan.

If Itachi knocked Sasuke out with Tsukiyomi at the very start then there would have been no point.

So basically, your hypothesis that Sasuke's Sharingan is superior to every other Sharingan is built on a foundation of sand.

2) Chakra being more sinister doesn't mean more powerful. It just means his chakra is f*cked up and evil.

Hope this helps.

1) Tsyukiyomi is an ability that can only be changed in one way, in the amount of time you want your victim to suffer. Itachi used it's full effects on Sasuke and Sasuke broke it with his normal Sharigan.

2) Sasuke's chakra has to be more powerful in some sense considering he was able to surpress the nine-tails chakra without even having a MS. This also goes back to show just how powerful his normal Sharigan is seeing as how he entered Naruto's mind and then made the Kyuubi his little bitch lol.

My hypothesis isn't built with sand, but facts. Stop talking like you're superior to others.

Hope that helps. = )
[hr]

Dude, Naruto won against Pain fair and square. Defeated Asura Pein first with the Rasengan with uber high speed. Beat Human Pein using FRS, then defeated Animal Realm in Bunta's mouth before Sage Mode went out. He defeated 3 of Pein's bodies in like a matter of minutes. O.o

Then he had a excellent plan into keeping Sage Mode by leaving his clones at Myobokuzan. FRS failed to kill the Fat Pein but that was his plan and then he killed the Hell Pein. That's 4 bodies destroyed by Naruto and his thinking. Then when the Fat Pein was absorbing his chakra, Naruto knew that if he absorbs Sage Chakra, he wouldn't be able to controll it, thus he would turn into a frog. Worked and punched him and destroyed the 5th body. Don;t seen any luck so far. Obviously Naruto is going to get a few hits..he isn't invincible.

Now the 6th Pein. Deva Pein. He didn';t really have a chance against him because of Shinra Tensei and Banshou Tenin. At that time he didn;t have a plan. Deva Realm was the most troublesome out of the 6 bodies. When the Kyuubi 6 and 8 tails part was over, he had a plan into defeating the last Pein. He only had 5 seconds to d and he managed to do it. He was able to trace Negato and everything.

Just imagine if Pein fought Jiraiya as how he fought against Naruto. Shinra Tensei,Banshou Tenin and Chibak Tensei, it would be hard for Jiraiya to get out of those. So dude, can say luck helped Naruto. Naruto has already proved that he is stronger then Pein, and at the moment he is the closest person into defeating Negato. Yes Naruto may have had help from Katsuyu etc but there is nothing wrong with that, he is the one who did the fighting and the planning.

Well, there is nothing really "unfair" about what happens in a fight. But under normal circumstances, Naruto would never have defeated all 6 Pain bodies. Allow me to explain how he was able to.

1) When Naruto first entered the battlefield, he had 3 giant summons, 1 regular sized summon, and 2 toad Sages helping him fight. Not to mention he was already in Sage Mode. He saved himself chakra since he didn't have to summon any of them, and didn't have to come up with a plan to initially get into Sage Mode.

2) He had two Sage Clones gathering chakra for him in a protected area.

3) Deva couldn't even use his powers at the beginning of the fight. He is without a doubt the strongest Pain body, and as soon as his powers came back into play, he straight up curbed Naruto, and basically had the fight won.

4) Naruto released the Kyuubi accidently, and would have died if his father didn't place a failsafe inside his son. Naruto had no way to get out of the mess Deva put him in unless he unleashed the fox, something prior to his talk with his father, he never wanted to do after nearly killing Sakura.

5) He was privy to all of Pain's powers for the most part. Granted Pain new about Naruto a bit, but he didn't know as much as Naruto knew about him. Pain really had no surprises for Naruto.

6) Nagato, who would seem to have an unlimited amount of chakra, was already getting tired from fighting for so long with the Pain bodies and had already used an Shinra Tensei to level the village.

As you can see, Naruto had a lot of advantages in this fight. The scales were heavily tipped in his favor, and he just barley got the win.

Now, I'm not taking anything away from Naruto, he executed great tactics and used that strange brain of his to pull out a win. But don't kid yourself if you think under normal circumstances that he would of had any chance of defeating Pain.

If you gave Itachi or Jiraiya everything Naruto was given in this fight, it would of been over in a matter of seconds.

Also keep in mind, Nagato wasn't trying to kill Naruto, he was trying to capture him. That moment when he had him pinned to the ground, he could of shoved thos rods through his heart, major organs, head, etc.

Naruto still won, and that's all that matters, but understand how and why he won. Because under almost any other circumstance than the one he was in, he would have lost.

[Natoma]

1) Tsyukiyomi is an ability that can only be changed in one way, in the amount of time you want your victim to suffer. Itachi used it's full effects on Sasuke and Sasuke broke it with his normal Sharigan.

Again, Itachi wasn't trying to kill or incapacitate Sasuke. That wasn't the point of the fight.

The point of the fight was to get Orochimaru out of Sasuke and to show Sasuke the full extent of the MS's powers before Itachi died.

If Itachi were truly trying to knock Sasuke out with Tsukiyomi, isn't it obvious that those two objectives would not have been met?


2) Sasuke's chakra has to be more powerful in some sense considering he was able to surpress the nine-tails chakra without even having a MS. This also goes back to show just how powerful his normal Sharigan is seeing as how he entered Naruto's mind and then made the Kyuubi his little bitch lol.

Yamato can suppress the Kyuubi chakra as well. Does that mean his chakra is more powerful than the Kyuubi? No?

There's the flaw in your argument.


My hypothesis isn't built with sand, but facts. Stop talking like you're superior to others.

Hope that helps. = )

Well, it really is built on a foundation of sand. If you take this as me acting like I'm superior or whatever, that's an issue you have alone.

We're talking about a manga for goodness sake, not some life or death situation. That said, if you make an argument that violates the rules/established canon of the manga, then you can't then be offended if someone points out that you're wrong based on that violation.

[Weapon_X]

1) Well, there is nothing really "unfair" about what happens in a fight. But under normal circumstances, Naruto would never have defeated all 6 Pain bodies. Allow me to explain how he was able to.

1) When Naruto first entered the battlefield, he had 3 giant summons, 1 regular sized summon, and 2 toad Sages helping him fight. Not to mention he was already in Sage Mode. He saved himself chakra since he didn't have to summon any of them, and didn't have to come up with a plan to initially get into Sage Mode.

2) He had two Sage Clones gathering chakra for him in a protected area.

3) Deva couldn't even use his powers at the beginning of the fight. He is without a doubt the strongest Pain body, and as soon as his powers came back into play, he straight up curbed Naruto, and basically had the fight won.

4) Naruto released the Kyuubi accidently, and would have died if his father didn't place a failsafe inside his son. Naruto had no way to get out of the mess Deva put him in unless he unleashed the fox, something prior to his talk with his father, he never wanted to do after nearly killing Sakura.

5) He was privy to all of Pain's powers for the most part. Granted Pain new about Naruto a bit, but he didn't know as much as Naruto knew about him. Pain really had no surprises for Naruto.

6) Nagato, who would seem to have an unlimited amount of chakra, was already getting tired from fighting for so long with the Pain bodies and had already used an Shinra Tensei to level the village.

As you can see, Naruto had a lot of advantages in this fight. The scales were heavily tipped in his favor, and he just barley got the win.

Now, I'm not taking anything away from Naruto, he executed great tactics and used that strange brain of his to pull out a win. But don't kid yourself if you think under normal circumstances that he would of had any chance of defeating Pain.

If you gave Itachi or Jiraiya everything Naruto was given in this fight, it would of been over in a matter of seconds.

Also keep in mind, Nagato wasn't trying to kill Naruto, he was trying to capture him. That moment when he had him pinned to the ground, he could of shoved thos rods through his heart, major organs, head, etc.

Naruto still won, and that's all that matters, but understand how and why he won. Because under almost any other circumstance than the one he was in, he would have lost.

1) Those 3 summons didn't kill any of the Pein's bodies though. It mainly just destroyed Animal Realm's summons. Naruto can do that a million times if he wants using his Senpou Oodama Rasengan. Pa Frog may have helped Naruto by regaining his Sage Mode by reverse Kchiyose no Jutsu. After that, look where Pa Frog ended up. Dead.

2) But that's called planing. That's not luck, Naruto knows his weakness is that he can only keep Sage Mode for 5 minutes so obviously he is going to find a way to get back to Sage Mode. He knows that if he fights at base level against Pein, he is going to be defeated. So Sage Mode is the only answer.

3) True, Deva was unstoppable, but Naruto is the only one who beat Deva Realms 5 second thing. When he entered Sage Mode, he knew his last clone would be finished, so he took a risk and thought of a plan to beat Pein's 5 second interval. Don't think anyone else would be able to figure out this strategy. He beat Deva Realm's weakness and thus defeated the 6th body. Even Deva was shocked when Naruto disguised his clones as rocks.

4) He didn't release the Kyuubi intentionally. He thought that Hinata died, and felt her pain and anger took him over. That wasn't in his hand, and yeah, that's 1 luck that Naruto had. Minato appearing.

5) But that's how most fights happen. Sasuke didn't know anything about Killer Bee and he still won. Naruto still pushed Pein to the edge, he had to use all of his abilities to fight Naruto.

6) Konoha being destroyed, how would that be an advantage to Naruto?

Negato may not have tried to kill him, but he has killed the dearest to Naruto. Torture is worse then death.

I admit that Jiraiya would have won if he knew about Pein, as stated by Pein himself. But still, Naruto is the one who beat Pein fair and square. Getting help from someone isn't wrong, after all everyone is trying to protect Konoha, so everyone is going to work together.

When Konoha was destroyed, Naruto was the only hope and chance. No one was capable in defeating Pein. Not even the Hokage..

[lan2cp]

I keep hearing that Sasuke's sharingan is superior to Kakashi's because he broke out of Tsukuyomi. This is not entirely true. Sasuke didn't use his sharingan to break the genjutsu, he used the cursed seal in a similar fashion as Killer Bee used the 8 tails to break out of Sasuke's Tsukuyomi.

Also, for the record, Naruto beat God Pain while in base mode not in Sage Mode.

[Delbi]

I keep hearing that Sasuke's sharingan is superior to Kakashi's because he broke out of Tsukuyomi. This is not entirely true. Sasuke didn't use his sharingan to break the genjutsu, he used the cursed seal in a similar fashion as Killer Bee used the 8 tails to break out of Sasuke's Tsukuyomi.

Also, for the record, Naruto beat God Pain while in base mode not in Sage Mode.

No he didn't the CS was activated inside of the genjutsu, which as you know is an illusion and thus not real.

While in real time the CS was not activated in the slightest bit, and its only in real time where anything matters in terms of breaking a genjutsu. The CS does not affect Sasuke unless it is activated.
[hr]

Again, Itachi wasn't trying to kill or incapacitate Sasuke. That wasn't the point of the fight.

The point of the fight was to get Orochimaru out of Sasuke and to show Sasuke the full extent of the MS's powers before Itachi died.

If Itachi were truly trying to knock Sasuke out with Tsukiyomi, isn't it obvious that those two objectives would not have been met?


Tsyukiyomi can't kill you. Itachi used it to test Sasuke and Sasuke passed by breaking it. If it would of knocked him out, Itachi most likely would have left his brother in a heap, and told him he needed to get stronger just like he did in part 1. Sasuke wasn't about to give up his life to Sasuke unless Sasuke was strong enough.

Itachi then came close to killing Sasuke with Ameratsu, he had no idea Sasuke had the Kawarimi Orochimaru had. He also had no idea that Orochimaru was inside of Sasuke until he used that jutsu to escape Ameratsu.

Itachi's goal was to give his life up to Sasuke, but he never knew until he began fighting Sasuke that Orochimaru was a part of him.

His goal was to have Sasuke kill him and surpass him. Yet, from what I gather, I think Itachi really would have killed Sasuke if Sasuke was too weak. Itachi obviously wanted to kill Madara, and Madara seemed to fear him somewhat. Itachi's goals are tied to the benefit of Konoha. He left his brother alive so that one of them would eventually gain the EMS and be able to challenge Madara, at least that's what I think.



Yamato can suppress the Kyuubi chakra as well. Does that mean his chakra is more powerful than the Kyuubi? No?

There's the flaw in your argument.

Yamato can surpress the Kyuubi do to the injection of Kekkai Genkai genes into his DNA.

The Sharigan is said to be able to control the Kyuubi once one achieves the MS, and only then. Sasuke is only the second Uchiha to have some kind of control over the fox, and he did so using only his regular Sharigan. The fox commented that his chakra is as sinister as Uchiha Madara's. So, taking from what the fox said, Sasuke was able to surpress his chakra due to his own chakra along with his regular Sharigan.

There is no flaw in my arugment.



Well, it really is built on a foundation of sand. If you take this as me acting like I'm superior or whatever, that's an issue you have alone.

We're talking about a manga for goodness sake, not some life or death situation. That said, if you make an argument that violates the rules/established canon of the manga, then you can't then be offended if someone points out that you're wrong based on that violation.

My arguments don't violate the canon of the manga, you simply reguse to except the facts i've been making because they go against your argument.
[hr]

1) Those 3 summons didn't kill any of the Pein's bodies though. It mainly just destroyed Animal Realm's summons. Naruto can do that a million times if he wants using his Senpou Oodama Rasengan. Pa Frog may have helped Naruto by regaining his Sage Mode by reverse Kchiyose no Jutsu. After that, look where Pa Frog ended up. Dead.

2) But that's called planing. That's not luck, Naruto knows his weakness is that he can only keep Sage Mode for 5 minutes so obviously he is going to find a way to get back to Sage Mode. He knows that if he fights at base level against Pein, he is going to be defeated. So Sage Mode is the only answer.

3) True, Deva was unstoppable, but Naruto is the only one who beat Deva Realms 5 second thing. When he entered Sage Mode, he knew his last clone would be finished, so he took a risk and thought of a plan to beat Pein's 5 second interval. Don't think anyone else would be able to figure out this strategy. He beat Deva Realm's weakness and thus defeated the 6th body. Even Deva was shocked when Naruto disguised his clones as rocks.

4) He didn't release the Kyuubi intentionally. He thought that Hinata died, and felt her pain and anger took him over. That wasn't in his hand, and yeah, that's 1 luck that Naruto had. Minato appearing.

5) But that's how most fights happen. Sasuke didn't know anything about Killer Bee and he still won. Naruto still pushed Pein to the edge, he had to use all of his abilities to fight Naruto.

6) Konoha being destroyed, how would that be an advantage to Naruto?

Negato may not have tried to kill him, but he has killed the dearest to Naruto. Torture is worse then death.

I admit that Jiraiya would have won if he knew about Pein, as stated by Pein himself. But still, Naruto is the one who beat Pein fair and square. Getting help from someone isn't wrong, after all everyone is trying to protect Konoha, so everyone is going to work together.

When Konoha was destroyed, Naruto was the only hope and chance. No one was capable in defeating Pein. Not even the Hokage..

1) Those summons fought animal realms summons so Naruto didn't have to.

2) I understand planning a part of fighting. But if Naruto didn't finish his training, and Pain somehow showed up on Frog Mt. unannounced, Naruto wouldn't of had time to prepare. Likewise, if he was in Jiraiya situation, he would of been captured.

3) Naruto's strategy was good, but he isn't the only person who could of thought of something like that. Kakashi would have killed Deva if he didn't have to fight Asura as well, he actually had Deva dead to rights, but Asura was still somehow alive.

4) If Minato didn't show up, Naruto would have died and everyone left that wasn't dead would have been killed. If he didn't transform he would of been captured.

5) Naruto knew everything there was to know about Pain. Other fighters had to fight and die for these secrets. If Naruto didn't know about half of Pain's powers, his strategies would have been ineffective.

6) Konoha was destroyed on a whim by Pain. If he didn't do that, Deva would have been active from the beginning of the fight and Naruto's strategies to fight him would again of failed because he would of had to worry about Deva and his abilities, which include stopping FRS and drawing Naruto into a cluster fuck of Pain bodies.

I never said that there was anyone left alive who could have defeated Pain. If Naruto failed, no one else had a chance, he's the only person with the stamina and power to do so.

But like I said, understand how and why he won. He had everything going for him in this fight, and had an extreme amount of luck. If you're denying that, I really can't discuss this with you anymore. This fight is similar to how Sasuke defeated Orochimaru, Sasuke even admitted that he could of never defeated Orochimaru at full strength.

[Underpowered]

5) But that's how most fights happen. Sasuke didn't know anything about Killer Bee and he still won. Naruto still pushed Pein to the edge, he had to use all of his abilities to fight Naruto.


Didnt Sasuke get obliterated several times (and then healed by others) and then got fooled with a tentacle?
Awesome victory for Sasuke. lol

[~Joshua~]

Didnt Sasuke get obliterated several times (and then healed by others) and then got fooled with a tentacle?
Awesome victory for Sasuke. lol

Sasuke was not fighting with the intent to kill in the beginning of the fight. After he started to realize that if he didnt up his attacks him and his team were going to die then he used a technique capable of killing and even then saved Killerbee from death.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Sasuke was not fighting with the intent to kill in the beginning of the fight. After he started to realize that if he didnt up his attacks him and his team were going to die then he used a technique capable of killing and even then saved Killerbee from death.

Fighting with killing intent wouldn't have stop Killerbee swords from going through him. And after he start fighting with killing intent he got his chest blown away, and needed Juugo to save his live.

Save Killerbee from death? I think you mean save a tentacle from death. What Sasuke saved from getting burn up by Amterasu was a tentacle.

[Natoma]

Tsyukiyomi can't kill you. Itachi used it to test Sasuke and Sasuke passed by breaking it. If it would of knocked him out, Itachi most likely would have left his brother in a heap, and told him he needed to get stronger just like he did in part 1. Sasuke wasn't about to give up his life to Sasuke unless Sasuke was strong enough.

1) I never said Tsukyomi could kill you. I said that Itachi's aim in that fight was not to kill or incapacitate Sasuke.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/01/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/03/

2) Itachi was near death during that fight. He didn't have time to pull another "You need to get stronger, Sasuke." deal like he pulled over the years.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/394/06/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/14/


Itachi then came close to killing Sasuke with Ameratsu, he had no idea Sasuke had the Kawarimi Orochimaru had. He also had no idea that Orochimaru was inside of Sasuke until he used that jutsu to escape Ameratsu.

Itachi's goal was to give his life up to Sasuke, but he never knew until he began fighting Sasuke that Orochimaru was a part of him.

Yes, Itachi did know that Sasuke had absorbed Orochimaru's powers. Both he and Zetsu knew.

Don't you remember the part of the manga where Itachi stated "You finally show yourself" when Orochimaru was released? It's obvious that he knew that Orochimaru was inside Sasuke.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/16/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/08-09/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/13/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/02/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/03/


His goal was to have Sasuke kill him and surpass him. Yet, from what I gather, I think Itachi really would have killed Sasuke if Sasuke was too weak. Itachi obviously wanted to kill Madara, and Madara seemed to fear him somewhat. Itachi's goals are tied to the benefit of Konoha. He left his brother alive so that one of them would eventually gain the EMS and be able to challenge Madara, at least that's what I think.

I'm not sure what Manga you've been reading, but definitely isn't the Manga that we've got right now. Itachi did what he did to protect Sasuke and make him stronger. He would not have killed Sasuke. This much was stated through flashback and storytelling over the course of several chapters.

I've pointed out as much above.


Yamato can surpress the Kyuubi do to the injection of Kekkai Genkai genes into his DNA.

And what do you think the Sharingan is? A Kekkei Genkai, correct? So again, is Yamato's chakra stronger because it's on the same KG footing as the Sharingan?

See why your logic fails in this situation?


The Sharigan is said to be able to control the Kyuubi once one achieves the MS, and only then. Sasuke is only the second Uchiha to have some kind of control over the fox, and he did so using only his regular Sharigan. The fox commented that his chakra is as sinister as Uchiha Madara's. So, taking from what the fox said, Sasuke was able to surpress his chakra due to his own chakra along with his regular Sharigan.

There is no flaw in my arugment.

I guess you don't see the logic flaw. More sinister != more powerful. It means more evil.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sinister?r=75

Do you see any reference to power there?


My arguments don't violate the canon of the manga, you simply reguse to except the facts i've been making [up] because they go against your argument.

Corrected. :D

[~Joshua~]

I guess you don't see the logic flaw. More sinister != more powerful. It means more evil.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sinister?r=75

Do you see any reference to power there?



Corrected. :D[/QUOTE]

The 3rd definition of that word on the website you gave also meant disastrous.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disastrous

Overall, its a negative thing. Physically, or in the Sharingan's case, mentally.

[Delbi]

1) I never said Tsukyomi could kill you. I said that Itachi's aim in that fight was not to kill or incapacitate Sasuke.

2) Itachi was near death during that fight. He didn't have time to pull another "You need to get stronger, Sasuke." deal like he pulled over the years.

Everytime Tsukiyomi has been used before Itachi used it on Sasuke, it put its target into a coma more or less, and incapacitated them.

Itachi used Tsyukiyomi on Sasuke to test his power, if Sasuke failed, Itachi would have left him their yet again.

Remeber something, Sasuke went after Itachi, it wasn't like Itachi showed up one day and said, "Sasuke I want you to meet me here". Itachi didn't go into this fight immediatly thinking he was going to die, yet once he realized Sasuke got strong enough, he died so his brother could live.



Yes, Itachi did know that Sasuke had absorbed Orochimaru's powers. Both he and Zetsu knew.

Don't you remember the part of the manga where Itachi stated "You finally show yourself" when Orochimaru was released? It's obvious that he knew that Orochimaru was inside Sasuke.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/16/

Go back and look over that link, Zetsu and Itachi had no idea Orochimaru was in Sasuke until Sasuke used Orochimaru's technique. It was only then that they realised Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru. The word around the ninja world was that Sasuke killed Orochimaru, only Kabuto knew right off the bat that Orochimaru got absorbed by Sasuke.



I'm not sure what Manga you've been reading, but definitely isn't the Manga that we've got right now. Itachi did what he did to protect Sasuke and make him stronger. He would not have killed Sasuke. This much was stated through flashback and storytelling over the course of several chapters.

He did, but Itachi has shown before that he's willing to throw everything he loved away to save his village. If Sasuke didn't have any redeeming qualities, or proved to Itachi he was too weak to defeat Madara, Itachi would have killed him and done the job himself. It's never stated Itachi wouldn't have killed his brother, and don't use things Madara has said as proof seeing as how he loves to twist things around, play with Sasuke's emotions, and straight out lie to benefit himself.



And what do you think the Sharingan is? A Kekkei Genkai, correct? So again, is Yamato's chakra stronger because it's on the same KG footing as the Sharingan?


I guess you don't see the logic flaw. More sinister != more powerful. It means more evil.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sinister?r=75

Do you see any reference to power there?


The Sharigan is a Kekkai Genkai, who would of thought that? In any event, it is the Mangekyo Sharigan that allows one to control the Kyuubi, Sasuke surpressed the Kyuubi with his normal sharigan and then the Kyuubi mentioned his chakra was as sinister as Madara's.

I full well know what the word sinister means, but remeber something about this manga, theres this thing called "killing intent". When someone uses that, they can make a person fear them and more or less overpower them with a sinister/killer aura.

So, as far as this manga goes, Sasuke's sinister chakra would allow him to overpower something, specifically the Kyuubi.

[Forever_Melody]

There's no point in arguing Sasuke's feat on Kyuubi in this thread because until proven to do so, I doubt Sasuke can actually do anything similar to Pain -_-;

Sharingan gave Sasuke some suppressive ability on Kyuubi yes. Is this unique to him? We don't know because honestly, Kakashi never attempted the feat and neither did Itachi. For all we know, the "regular Sharingan can suppress Kyuubi" is a lesser form of the more powerful MS ability to actually control it. As Kyuubi said, Sasuke's chakra is more sinister/cursed than his own, but really, there are 100 explanations/theories regarding this line(the other one being Kyuubi's "threat/warning" to Sasuke) so this doesn't really bring much to the conversation since there isn't any definitive as to what this actually means.

I doubt Sasuke's "more sinister chakra than Kyuubi" will help him win against Pain because really, we haven't had any hint of this "sinister chakra" actually doing anything concrete in the manga yet.

Sasuke most definitely has the abilities to defeat Pain. I mean, if you look back at it, many shinobis have the power to take out Pain, but you need the ability to execute everything properly. That alone is another story entirely.

[Raizen]

Kakashi sharingan is inferior. And has demostrated it doesnt have all the abilities Sasuke and Itachi does. There werent really any Hyuuga to have gotten up close to the battle except Hinata. And Hinata is fail sauce.
Buddy that is your opinion. not fact.
Kakashi's sharingan has never showed inferiority. get over it
[hr]

1) Tsyukiyomi is an ability that can only be changed in one way, in the amount of time you want your victim to suffer. Itachi used it's full effects on Sasuke and Sasuke broke it with his normal Sharigan.

2) Sasuke's chakra has to be more powerful in some sense considering he was able to surpress the nine-tails chakra without even having a MS. This also goes back to show just how powerful his normal Sharigan is seeing as how he entered Naruto's mind and then made the Kyuubi his little bitch lol.

My hypothesis isn't built with sand, but facts. Stop talking like you're superior to others.

Hope that helps. = )

1- Where did u get the basics of tsukyomi?? tsukyomi is an attack. u can change the level of stress you want to be put into the technique the same way u exert chakra into your techniques. It is understandable if itachi let sasuke break it. How would itachi know if sasuke is strong enough to break the technique?? If sasuke wasn't, then his whole plan fails. So i doubt he would take taht chance.
2- it was stated to be as sinister, meaning as evil. Not stronger. And he only supressed the 9-tails after naruto was doing so

[Belisar]

The Sharigan is a Kekkai Genkai, who would of thought that? In any event, it is the Mangekyo Sharigan that allows one to control the Kyuubi, Sasuke surpressed the Kyuubi with his normal sharigan and then the Kyuubi mentioned his chakra was as sinister as Madara's.

So, as far as this manga goes, Sasuke's sinister chakra would allow him to overpower something, specifically the Kyuubi.
what sasuke surpressed was only chakra bubbles of kyuubi in it's form. naruto wasn't even in tail mode. not bad for sasuke though but not such a big feat like you try to represent.

topic: lol..... i give sasuke 1 minute until he dies.

[ninjabot]

Again, Itachi wasn't trying to kill or incapacitate Sasuke. That wasn't the point of the fight.

The point of the fight was to get Orochimaru out of Sasuke and to show Sasuke the full extent of the MS's powers before Itachi died.

If Itachi were truly trying to knock Sasuke out with Tsukiyomi, isn't it obvious that those two objectives would not have been met?

Just pointing out that Pein didn't want Naruto dead either. He just wanted him incapacitated so that he could take him back to extract the Kyuubi. Naruto's greatest achievement required every handicap imaginable aswell as an enemy who didn't want him dead. Sasuke's greatest achievement could have been achieved had he known about Susanoo prior. That's the only thing that kept him from wiinning that fight. The ONLY thing.


Fighting with killing intent wouldn't have stop Killerbee swords from going through him. And after he start fighting with killing intent he got his chest blown away, and needed Juugo to save his live.

So if Sasuke had hit Hachibi with Amaterasu at the beginning of the fight, or Tsukiyomi to paralyze him before decapitating him, that wouldn't have prevented him from getting stabbed? Same thing with Naruto: had Pein wanted him dead, why not do so when he had him pierced to the ground?

Referring to the topic: Sasuke has no prior knowledge on Pein, so he can't very well keep the multitude of bodies he kills down. There in lies his downfall. By the moment he realizes every (referring to the multiple bodies he kills during the fight) Pein he strikes down would be revived, he probably would be pretty drained.

And since he has no army of boss level summons, nor bijuu, nor regenerative abilities, nor talking slug to tell him how to fight, he loses.

[Leos~]

Ok, this is gettin off topic quite a bit: this isn't about Naruto vs. Pain or Itachi vs. Sasuke >.>

About the main topic: if Pain fought Sasuke as Sasuke is now, even including his Amaterasu, I just don't see Sasuke standing a chance in hell of winning. Heck, even if he used all of team Hawk I don't think he'd win. The only chance I could see of Sasuke "winning" would be in tsukiyomi, and I don't think that would work on a dead body >.> not to mention he'd still have to find Nagato's location.

[Forever_Melody]

Sasuke's (or anyone's for that matter) only chance of winning against Pain is prior knowledge of his abilities. The manga has made it quite clear that you need prior prep info on Pain to be able to handle his 6 bodies without severe cost.

[kkck]

Sasuke's (or anyone's for that matter) only chance of winning against Pain is prior knowledge of his abilities. The manga has made it quite clear that you need prior prep info on Pain to be able to handle his 6 bodies without severe cost.

I don't completely agree with that. Naruto had essentially lost against pein when the guy had not access to deva's power for a long while and naruto got a cheap shot on azura. If it wasn't for good old kyubi hax, naruto would have lost considering he was already impaled immobile by pein. If naruto had fought all six bodies at full power from the start, he would not have gotten anywhere even with with his toad army and prior knowledge.

[Destined_One]

^I think that's why Forever_Melody commented that it would be the only 'chance' at winning against pain... Having the power to defeat all 6 might be out of reach of all the ninja's seen thus far... but without prior knowledge, especially his secret, you a wasting your time...

[Zero Sama]

but I cant see sasuke anywhere near defeating pain even with prior knowledge!:amuse

[Forever_Melody]

I don't completely agree with that. Naruto had essentially lost against pein when the guy had not access to deva's power for a long while and naruto got a cheap shot on azura. If it wasn't for good old kyubi hax, naruto would have lost considering he was already impaled immobile by pein. If naruto had fought all six bodies at full power from the start, he would not have gotten anywhere even with with his toad army and prior knowledge.

As Destined said, it's the chance to defeat him that you gain from prior information, not a guaranteed victory.

To be even able to stand a chance, you need to know. After that, it's a question of application, which is another story entirely since you have to deal with 6 people at the same time.

Really, Pain wasn't undefeated prior to Naruto for a reason. He kept knowledge on his powers quite secretly(well every shinobi does anyways) and the very odd nature of his powers makes it so that it was nearly impossible to defeat him.

Even Madara acknowledges that Pain never lost up until now(however Madara did think Naruto would pose a threat).

Really, for Sasuke to even stand a glimmer of a chance, he needs that prior information. After that, it'd still be a ride in hell for him.

[Delbi]

I don't completely agree with that. Naruto had essentially lost against pein when the guy had not access to deva's power for a long while and naruto got a cheap shot on azura. If it wasn't for good old kyubi hax, naruto would have lost considering he was already impaled immobile by pein. If naruto had fought all six bodies at full power from the start, he would not have gotten anywhere even with with his toad army and prior knowledge.

Keep in mind, that Naruto isn't the strongest guy out there (yet).

If you gave Jiraiya or Itachi, prior knowledge of Pain, it's likely they would win, Pain even admitted that if Jiraiya had known his secret, he wouldn't have beaten him, or Jiraiya would have won outright, depending on the translation. Seeing as how Itachi and Jiraiya are believed by most to be on equal footing, they probably could both defeat Pain.

Now as for Sasuke, IF he had prior knowledge to Pain, he'd be in about the same boat as Naruto was in.

Sasuke doesn't have Naruto chakra supply, or large summons, but he does posses a few things Naruto doesn't.

-Sasuke is always very fast, Naruto is only very fast when in Sage Mode.
-Sasuke's jutsu control and variety is better, therefore has a few more options than Naruto
-Sasuke has the Sharigan, and we have yet to see how his MS jutsu would work against Pain

Overall, Sasuke would have many of the same problems Naruto had, but he lacks one thing Naruto doesn't have, the Kyuubi. Without the Kyuubi, Naruto would have clearly lost, so I'd say Sasuke would most likely lose as well.

[mattiaildivino]

Pain! pain owns him if we consider sasuke until the current situation! probably with the eternal ipnotical sharingan sasuke would win.

[Veloratrix]

Well, if Pain were to fight a healthy Itachi, Pain would still likely win that fight. Sasuke isn't half the genius Itachi was, and he could never control his powers as well as Itachi could. Even if Sasuke mastered EMS, Pain already has complete control over the Rinnegan, which trumps all other Dojutsus, and on top of that Sasuke is missing the Sealing Sword Totsuka, and Yata Mirror.

Pain kicks Sasuke's ass.

[AlB]

Perhaps at least one of those 20 people that voted Sause would share their opinion?

I say Sausage not because I hate him. It's just because when it comes to Pain, he Is Sausage.

[ninjabot]

Just a few things...

1. Many of you are overexaggerating Sasuke's speed.

The two pieces of evidence we go by on Sasuke's speed are:
(a) When he confronted Team 7 after the time skip
(b) When he was confronted by Deidara and Tobi/Madara


Those aren't even Sasuke's greatest feats of speed. Those may be your ideas of his greatest speed and if so, that's exactly why you don't believe he's absurdly fast, because you're focusing on feats that pale in comparison to the ones I'm about to mention.

Sasuke's greatest feats of speed (the ones we think of when comparing him to other people) are from his fights with Bee, Raikage, and Itachi.

Speed enough to follow and react to someone of Raikage or Itachi's speed far, far outweighs the feats you're talking about.


A) At this time, Team 7 was tired. Naruto was even falling down from exhaustion when running. Sasuke was fresh and rested. Sasuke is going to seem faster in this situation. Furthermore, we cannot judge Sasuke's speed solely on how Yamato, Sakura, and Naruto view it. Team 7 also consider Kakashi to be very fast and from what we saw in the Immortals Arc, Hidan is just as fast as Kakashi and Kakuzu is even faster making Kakashi not look as fast at all. A fresh Sasuke looking faster when compared to a tired Team 7 isn't showing much.


Neither Yamato nor Sai were exhausted.



B) I think this part of the manga confused some. Sasuke wasn't charging after Tobi alone. He was charging at them both since they were right next to each other. Deidara dodged it without much trouble. Deidara was shocked because I assume that he didn't expect Sasuke to be so fast (underestimation). Nevertheless, Deidara dodged it without trouble. We all know Tobi dodged it. Anyway, seeing as Deidara is a fighter similar to Gaara, in which he is long range and, from what I've seen, isn't very good at speed or taijutsu, I'm surprised he was able to dodge Sasuke. Unless of course, Sasuke isn't as fast as most of you say. If Deidara of all people, who probably doesn't even walk more than a few feet at a time (he travels by clay bird almost all the time, even in battle), can dodge Sasuke when Sasuke used his shunshin, then Sasuke's shunshin isn't that fast.


No, Deidara mentioned twice that Sasuke was too fast for him to deal with. That's the exact reason he took the fight to long range to take away that disadvantage. Sasuke was attempting to cut both Deidara and Madara, sure. But that doesn't change the fact that Deidara nearly shat himself once the sword came out. You could claim the exclamation point was simple surprise, but why didn't he up his game once he knew his actual speed? Matter of factly, he threw out his mini-bombs deliberately to test his speed and once he saw the speed at which Sasuke moved?

Nor does it change the fact that he needed an explosion to boost his speed to get him away from Sasuke's surprise attack... here we go again with the selective reading.



Let's breakdown Pein's fight with Jiraiya:


Yes, let's.



(a) Normal Jiraiya vs Summoner Pein
(b) Hermit Mode Jiraiya vs 3 Pein
(c) Hermit Mode Jiraiya vs 6 Pein

A) Okay, in this fight, Jiraiya did not get a hit off of Summoner Pein. Summoner Pein easily escaped from Jiraiya's first hair move and Jiraiya was losing to Summoner Pein's quick summons of huge animals. Jiraiya needed Ken-chan to stall in order to prepare for Hermit Mode. Summoner Pein vs Jiraiya showed that Summoner Pein, by himself, is a very strong foe and was defeating Jiraiya by himself.


Defeating? Neither opponent hit each other. Infact, Jiraiya took out the crab without even needing a summon...
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v41/c374/5.html

...and then had Animal Realm at his mercy.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v41/c374/6.html

Granted, he escaped with a D-rank jutsu, but the fact that Jiraiya both killed a giant summon and trapped a realm without moving from the same spot should count for something. Not to mention not all of the bodies can perform the level of destruction that Animal Realm can. Just he and God Realm. You think Jiraiya would have the same trouble against Human Realm? Hungry Ghost? Asura?

Take into consideration the fact that Sasuke is likely a step faster than Jiraiya and Sasuke would definately have the same level of ease.


In Hermit Mode, Jiraiya didn't land any hits on the 3 Peins because of the 3 Peins' strategy. Jiraiya's fastest attacks were being deflected. Again, Jiraiya stalled for time to use a technique that Pein did not expect. The 3 Peins were overwhelming him and Jiraiya used the one technique that would help him: The sound genjutsu. However, Pein was still one step ahead as he summoned the other 3 Peins right before Jiraiya's genjutsu took effect. Jiraiya may have taken down some of Pein's bodies but Pein was still a step ahead when he did a last minute summoning of his other bodies.


Seeing what each other realm sees is what protected them from direct assaults (which is as easy to do as pulling them out of formation on the offensive). Get around the shared sight the way Jiraiya or Naruto did and you're set. And Sasuke fights all 6 realms from the start in this fight. Likewise, Sasuke hasn't trainined with Nagato his whole childhood, so anything Sasuke pulls on him will be as surprising as the Genjutsu Jiraiya got on him.

For example, all the realms trying to bumrush would result in a Chidori Nagashi paralyzing everyone around him, or Susanoo coming out and squashing a handfull of them.



C) I do not think Jiraiya would win against 6 Peins even if Jiraiya was 100%. Yes, Jiraiya lost an arm, but as Pa is explaining, Jiraiya was gathering external energy for his Hermit Mode anyway so it's not like he lost a lot of power. Furthermore, even if Jiraiya was 100%, we know that the only thing he could use to take down the Peins at once was the sound genjutsu and he wouldn't have enough time to prepare that if 6 Peins are fighting him. It was hard enough to occupy the 3 Peins when he was preparing the sound genjutsu, I do not think he could handle the other 3 especially if the other 3 have powers that can counteract genjutsu. The barrier of Jiraiya's was a good trap but it was only good to take down one body and as we know, if Pein recovered that fallen body he could ressurrect it immediately.


None of that translates into Sasuke being incapable of doing better. Nagato has no info on Sasuke's repertoire, and he's proven over and over that you can get the drop on him with careful planning.



Pein had control the whole fight. Any time it looked like Jiraiya got a leg up, Pein immediately took back control and won in the end because of his abilities. Yes, Pein did admit that if Jiraiya knew a certain secret, Jiraiya would have won. Although, it's implied that the secret he's referring to is the fact that he has 6 (or more) bodies, it's not clear and Pein may be referring to something else.


Again, the fight starts with every realm in the fight which is more of an advantage than a disadvantage if Pein's fight against Jiraiya is any indication.



3. Pein vs Sasuke

Deidara was able to dodge Sasuke's shunshin and Pein was able to block against Jiraiya's fastest attack at close range (because of the multiple vision of the Rinnegan). How can anyone say that Sasuke's shunshin could land any hits on Pein? Sasuke's taijutsi won't work.


Show us undisputable proof that that attack is faster than Sasuke's movement speed. Faster than Raikage's movement speed. Sasuke can see both chakra and the flexing of muscles as an opponent moves, allowing him to predict their movements. The only, only way his taijutsu could be avoided by the likes of Pein is via the shared eyesight. Not to mention this nonsense:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v47/c433/5.html


Sasuke's not fast enough to fight Pein with taijutsu... but Naruto is? Sasuke, who's always been faster than base Naruto, who's STILL faster than base Naruto, AND can predict movements with his Sharingan? You didn't think this one through. At all.



Sasuke does not have any sound genjutsu so he cannot trap all the bodies at once. He can get one of the bodies, if he's lucky, in genjutsu at a time. However, the other bodies could release that body by using Chiyo's trick. Furthermore, Pein could simply have 3 Peins close their eyes (the 3 that are fighting) and have the other 3 perched somewhere to broaden the vision. The 3 Peins will be able to see and fight as if their eyes were open. The others Peins would be out of harm's way because if Sasuke wanted to get to those 3, he wouldn't be able to keep track of the 3 Pein directly fighting him. Genjutsu isn't going to work.


That's another thing you can't prove. They share eyesight and a chakra reserve. They also have human bodies. Everything required to be trapped with genjutsu. It's completely possible that visual Genjutsu cast on one opponent would transfer through the eyesight of others, and the eye closing wouldn't work unless he knew to expect it. Even if he got ahold of one body and only trapped that one body with visual Genjutsu, then once he decapitates it and Hell Realm starts to heal it, he'll know then and there which realm to try to finish off first.



Ninjutsu may work, maybe. Chidori variants won't work because they are close-ranged and as Jiraiya learned, you aren't going to be getting close to Pein if he doesn't want you to. Katon variants are long range but the Fat Pein will do to Sasuke's Katon attacks the same thing he did to Jiraiya's Katon attack. Sasuke's numerous Shuriken attack will have the same fate as Jiraiya's numerous Hair Needle attack. Kirin may work, but not if Pein doesn't allow Sasuke to prepare it. Even if Sasuke does get it going, the Peins would huddle behind Fat Pein and let Fat Pein absorb it. Or, at the least, have Fat Pein protect the Pein that ressurrects. Sasuke's normal ninjutsu won't do.


That's not accurate either. Chidori Eisou reaches 5 meters and is strong enough to cut through one of Hachibi's gigantic tentacles, and all his shuriken (that can be laced with raiton) are long range. Chidori Eisou is easily strong enough to cut down a giant summon. Likewise, Sasuke can use Housenka, hiding shurikens underneath katon so that when Hungry Ghost absorbs the flames he'd get ripped to pieces. Likewise, he can lace all his shuriken with Raiton, guaranteeing that any that actually connect carve the enemy to pieces.



Will Mangekyou Sharingan be the answer? Tsukuyomi won't get Sasuke far with the way I explained how genjutsu (that won't trap all the Peins at once) won't work. Amaterasu may work, unless Fat Pein gets in the way. However, how is Sasuke going to concentrate on using Amaterasu on Pein when Summoner Pein can summon these huge animals at an alarming rate?


Eyesight. That's all it takes. The time it takes to turn his head in the opposite direction and look is supposed to be enough time for Hungry Ghost to reach whichever Realm was targeted? What happens when a Goukakkyu is fired at Hungry Ghost, and Sasuke looks across the battlefield to drop an Amaterasu on Hell Realm or God Realm?

Even the multiple-headed dog that can split into multiple dogs would keep Sasuke preoccupied. Sasuke would be force to use Amaterasu on those animals before reaching Pein. Susanoo is left. Again, it's hard to use the sealing sword on Pein when Pein can just throw random animals into the way. Susanoo's shield may be defense, but Susanoo's shield doesn't have a 360 degree protection. It's basically a huge shield. I can see Pein finding a way around it or simply dodging the sealing sword until Sasuke succumbs to his low chakra.[/quote]


...Sasuke has no sealing sword. The Totsuka is limited to Itachi's Susanoo. Sasuke may have it now that he's taken Itachi's eyes, but he doesn't have it yet. And if Sasuke's arrows move so fast that Kakashi needs a S/T jutsu to block it, you're gonna have trouble proving to me a realm could dodge it.


You see all this? I'm not even claiming that Sasuke could beat Pein, but when you don't pay attention to the actual feats Sasuke's performed or what he's capable of pulling off (sealing sword? lmao), ofcourse it looks like he doesn't stand a chance. Sasuke would lose, definately. But it's not half as terrible as you'd like to think.

Selective reading FTL.

EDIT: This was a really, really old post I just felt like correcting.