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hyn_pride93
June 20, 2008, 12:21 AM
Bleach -97 is out!

Get it HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33397)

Go discuss and predict away!!:tem

Codejunky
June 20, 2008, 12:33 AM
Something I immediately noticed

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.12/10/

Other ...Shinji and the other 8 Victims?
I may be wrong, but the Vizard group is only composed of 8 people, including Shinji.

1. Love Aikawa
2. Shinji Hirako
3. Mashiro Kuna
4. Kensei Muguruma
5. Rojuro "Rose" Otoribashi
6. Hiyori Sarugaki
7. Hachigen Ushoda
8. Lisa Yadomaru

Now, maybe that's just a mistranslation. But it's something important to notice.

iyung
June 20, 2008, 12:39 AM
finally the grand finale, battle royal , time to take names, and leave a trail of dead bodies for the masses

but yea umm that was very predictable ending, and why did yoriuchi i cant spell her name, why did she know something was a mist and come to his rescue. but it doesnt matter now back to business better see every bodies bankai. no bodies should be left out and if i see one more filler , he can just end this series cause imma boycott

hyn_pride93
June 20, 2008, 12:41 AM
Something I immediately noticed

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.12/10/

Other ...Shinji and the other 8 Victims?
I may be wrong, but the Vizard group is only composed of 8 people, including Shinji.

1. Love Aikawa
2. Shinji Hirako
3. Mashiro Kuna
4. Kensei Muguruma
5. Rojuro "Rose" Otoribashi
6. Hiyori Sarugaki
7. Hachigen Ushoda
8. Lisa Yadomaru

Now, maybe that's just a mistranslation. But it's something important to notice.

That's so strange!!! WOW good job CODEJUNKY... I completely missed that. I hope its not a mistranslation, because that would make the story line THAT much better seeing as to how the vizards are now going to the battle. I really hope/think that they will be fighting for SS. although they got their powers because of Aizen's experiments, but it was because of HIM that they were all "destroyed" in the first place.

and hey, does anyone else think that the guy from the central 46 room look anything like that OLD ESPADA from Aizen's group...

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.12/10/

Codejunky
June 20, 2008, 12:43 AM
Yeah, I thought the Central 46 guy looked like Barragan (?) as well. I should do a side by side comparison

hyn_pride93
June 20, 2008, 01:34 AM
I'm pretty sure that that guy is Barragan. It has to be. and that gives some sort of foresight for the battles to come

Hollow Kurono
June 20, 2008, 02:35 AM
Maaan,finnaly its over,i know enought now!But Urahara-sans time in SS was preety short and now i realized who was that kidou captain :D damn.Now it is time,it is time to go and kick Aizens ass!!I loved this chapter.

Next chapter i predict that they meet again,bla-bla-bla,talk about old times and start fighting!I loved the last page of this chap!

Yvese
June 20, 2008, 02:59 AM
FIiiiiiiiiiiiiiinalllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. Although I <3'd the gaiden, this is what we've been waiting for :):):):)

gold349
June 20, 2008, 03:03 AM
NOW all I want to see is the faces of SS, when they see Vaizard coming, no chance are Vaizards fighting against Ss or for Aizen. This is long time over due have been waiting for the winter war for like ages, lets roll.

segua
June 20, 2008, 03:13 AM
Wait, aren't the Vizards in the real town? So wouldn't that mean it's more of a showdown between the Vizards and Aizen, Kaname and Gin? Baragon, Stark and Halibel versus the remaining SS captains right?

someguy0830
June 20, 2008, 03:18 AM
Something I immediately noticed

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.12/10/

Other ...Shinji and the other 8 Victims?
I may be wrong, but the Vizard group is only composed of 8 people, including Shinji.

1. Love Aikawa
2. Shinji Hirako
3. Mashiro Kuna
4. Kensei Muguruma
5. Rojuro "Rose" Otoribashi
6. Hiyori Sarugaki
7. Hachigen Ushoda
8. Lisa Yadomaru

Now, maybe that's just a mistranslation. But it's something important to notice.It's probably a mistranslation, unless they're counting one of the dead.

Edome
June 20, 2008, 03:27 AM
I'm pretty sure that that guy is Barragan. It has to be. and that gives some sort of foresight for the battles to come

I'm pretty sure it's just a bi product of the artist. Artists tend to have identifiable faces or characters they use over and over again, even if they don't intend to. It's just how the mind works.

LoS
June 20, 2008, 03:41 AM
Nice cliffhanger at the end, leaves you wondering which side they will choose. If they choose any side even, they might fight for their own side.

Sarmad
June 20, 2008, 03:45 AM
What if they're referring to Kurosaki Ishin?? Maybe Aizen hollowfied him too.

I wonder where he fits in all this!? The fact that he didn't get any part in the "turn back the pendulum" flashback makes his standing in the matter a lot more mysterious.

Can't wait for the next chapter!

gold349
June 20, 2008, 03:49 AM
SS, bitch slapped Urahara and tessai, if any one should hold grudge or hate SS enough to change how its run it would be them, the people who did wrong to the Vaizards wasn't SS (they had no choice as they didn't know how to cure them and they was becoming hollow, so dealing with them as hollow would have been the right coarse) it was Aizen, he is the one who literally betrayed them and tested upon them, they was going to be killed as hollow if it wasn't for Urahara and Tessai and Yourichi, they owe not to SS but to urahara and co, I don't think the Vaizard would/could go up against SS they will most likely stick to the side of Urahara and support who ever Urahara is supporting in this case its SS.

mars0103
June 20, 2008, 03:50 AM
right there are to things that i am not sure of is the last page in normal time and does shinji hate hat and clogs.
central 46 are idots at least there dead now

OhDearMoshe
June 20, 2008, 04:11 AM
I'm really in the mood for the showdown now. But your right the guy does look like Barragan its what I thought when I saw them. Can't wait for the showdown now just to see what side the vizard will choose.

mdp
June 20, 2008, 04:21 AM
right there are to things that i am not sure of is the last page in normal time and does shinji hate hat and clogs.
central 46 are idots at least there dead now

After re-reading the chapter it really seems as though Hirako was saying how he is in debt to Urahara (in a good way/owes him something) and in debt to Aizen (to give him an ass kicking/rip his face off). Well thats just my .02$ on the confusion with that line

AnimeLoverX
June 20, 2008, 04:30 AM
totally kick ass..
azien is using his god mode too much =="

Tendou88
June 20, 2008, 04:36 AM
whoa there are too many allies against Aizen&co.
SS, vaizards, Urahara&co and maybe the parents (isshin and ishidas dad).

Hada-Kun
June 20, 2008, 04:39 AM
whoa there are too many allies against Aizen&co.
SS, vaizards, Urahara&co and maybe the parents (isshin and ishidas dad).

Yeah? Aizen has god mode.

mrmgomes
June 20, 2008, 04:43 AM
Last page as you can see by its background, it fades from black to white, which means it's not a storytelling anymore, and it's current time.

Actually I thought we'd see Isshin's story on the 'Turn back the pendulum' thing too...

Hada-Kun
June 20, 2008, 04:48 AM
Last page as you can see by its background, it fades from black to white, which means it's not a storytelling anymore, and it's current time.

Thats how it was supposed to be portrayed... Also, the character drawings and the things being said... i think you caught on a bit slowly.

dreamzsai
June 20, 2008, 04:49 AM
Who knows? We might get another "Turn back the Pendulum" after a few hundred more chapters?
The gaiden revealed the existence of "Squad 0" and a captain joining the squad, and i believe more of it will be unveiled in the future or it wouldn't have been mentioned at all.

I kinda have a feeling that we'll be seeing Aizen's Bankai or hybrid form soon, considering how many people will be going straight for him, we have the Vizard bunch going on to "repay" their debts and Yamamoto doesn't really seem to be all too happy with him as well. The huge difference in numbers is really making me wonder how Kubo is gonna arrange the fights....

mars0103
June 20, 2008, 04:54 AM
whoa there are too many allies against Aizen&co.
SS, vaizards, Urahara&co and maybe the parents (isshin and ishidas dad).

If isshin was not in the gaiden could that mean that isshin and hopefully maski (ichigos mother) where sent to capture him or talk to him from squad 0. found the truth and played dead. Next chapter surprise mommy not dead

mrmgomes
June 20, 2008, 05:02 AM
It'd be an awesome plot twist. And I hope we're having some other gaiden. Since the TBTP think stopped at -97... Should it go on till the manga's end? Or should these be the chapters left for it to end? Oh well don't misunderstand me, I don't want it to finish that soon, I was just wondering...

Hada-Kun
June 20, 2008, 05:12 AM
it stopped at -97 because relative to the manga it happened 97 chapters before the beginning.
(there was a -15 also with a histugaya flashback, lawl if u forgot)

The final arc! that is my prediction, Keep wrapping stuff up kubo... if he wraps everything up, covers all loose ends and ends it before 2009. YES. That is the only thing i want from bleach

mrmgomes
June 20, 2008, 05:14 AM
So that means that the countdown should go on somehow... Right?

mars0103
June 20, 2008, 05:31 AM
it stopped at -97 because relative to the manga it happened 97 chapters before the beginning.
(there was a -15 also with a histugaya flashback, lawl if u forgot)

The final arc! that is my prediction, Keep wrapping stuff up kubo... if he wraps everything up, covers all loose ends and ends it before 2009. YES. That is the only thing i want from bleach

I disagree i have alwas thought after hearing abount the king dimention that it will finish after that point. also hopfully a big epilog showing want happens to all the characters after this aizen thing. do ichigo and rukia get together or is it orhime. Will captain kucki be laughting on the other side of his face and who are the 4th nobel family

Luciana
June 20, 2008, 05:43 AM
Well i like this chapter one of the best.
I think turn back the pendulum is over and now we're going to see whats happen on karakura or HM,to be honest i prefer to see whats up with karakura to see Ichigo Vs Ulquiorra 'cause this fight is going to be a long and bored -_- .
and also i think Vizards'll fight against Aizen since on chapter - i don't remember the number-
Hiyori says 'Shinigamis Hates us' and the answer of Shinji was we're going to change that.
So vizards Vs SS,nah.
Vizards Vs Aizen its the right option.

hyn_pride93
June 20, 2008, 06:08 AM
now that I think of it, the Central 46 guy cant really be Barragon because Aizen killed off everyone in there so he could take control of SS. shinigamis are already souls so if they die there gone forever. unless Aizen did something to him, then it cant be.

sorry for all the mixed feelings...

itachisan
June 20, 2008, 06:32 AM
@mdp thanks mate! you cleared my confusion..

Aizen & Co vs SS + urahara, tessai, yorouchi + vaizards (so many captain level guys in this group!)

Aizen is heavily outnumbered..

Isshin lost his powers 20 years before the timeline.. so, i guess his story will come later..

poobert
June 20, 2008, 06:39 AM
Hmm that last page made me shout out, "OH SNAP!"

The shinigami reunion will be something to see.

Also I have doubts over whether the old guy is barragan. Barragan was a vasto lorde and only created once Aizen had the hogyoku. I think it is just the look of the "bleach generic old guy".

Starky-08
June 20, 2008, 07:09 AM
That's so strange!!! WOW good job CODEJUNKY... I completely missed that. I hope its not a mistranslation, because that would make the story line THAT much better seeing as to how the vizards are now going to the battle. I really hope/think that they will be fighting for SS. although they got their powers because of Aizen's experiments, but it was because of HIM that they were all "destroyed" in the first place.

and hey, does anyone else think that the guy from the central 46 room look anything like that OLD ESPADA from Aizen's group...

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.12/10/

OMG you noticed to! It really looks like him!

Codejunky
June 20, 2008, 07:18 AM
I would say that guy looks more like Chad's grandfather, if anything.

Koen
June 20, 2008, 07:23 AM
I can't tell about the vaizards but I wouldn't be suprised if they didn't choose aizens side nither uraharas side. For what reason? Well Urahara mentioned himself he knew about vaizards whereabouts but vaizards left him. Imo there's more reason for being a third party. Why?
- against aizen: for what aizen did to them
- against SS: because they were orderd to be treated like hollows

so who'll be the ennemy of my ennemy is my friend?

Starky-08
June 20, 2008, 07:25 AM
I dont think Barragan is gunna Chads Grandfather, as for me I see no resembelance.

Damn cant wait to see Shinji and Shunsui Bankai!!!

hyn_pride93
June 20, 2008, 08:09 AM
I cant wait to see all of them in action. Screw bankai already, just seeing all the captains fighting off the traitors/espada. and then having side battles with the vices against the arrancar. gosh, the shikai is what will make everyone go fricken CRAZY!!!! come on now everyone, a bankai? now that'll just be the icing on the cake if that happens.

ho ho ho. you better watch out, you better not cry, you better not pout I'm telling you why. Kubo is watching us and if we're not good little fans, then we'll never see our beloved bankais and mind-blowing action.


im just so excited now. im so over talking, that can come after the battles or little by little during them. just bring on the action KUBO. :tem

Cyanilurus
June 20, 2008, 08:23 AM
Heh, but maybe before all that captain fighting action we will see Ichigo vs Ulquiorra.
And if so, Ichigo winning is sooooooooo not logical, Ichigo losing (again) is not how the pattern goes in Bleach, is there a third, possibly happening option?

And honestly, even if this is supposed to be a great show-down, remember how much we awaited the Kenpachi against Noitora, and how disappointed we were afterwards? I can' t help but be a little anxious.

BigCamaro
June 20, 2008, 08:24 AM
Shouldnt Shinji and the Vaizards be in the transported Kurakura town up in SS? Or was the transportation taking them into account? or not powerful enough to move their barrier? Maybe they plan on going from SS to there. I really didnt think Aizen and his top 3 Espada could beat all the vaizards, the captains sent, Urahara, Isshin, and Yoruichi.

So my thought was itd just be them vs the Captains shown, then he'd go after the real Kurakura town in SS, which is when he'd have to face the Vaizards again, Isshin, Urahara, Yoruichi, and by then Ighigo and the others would've broken free of Hueco Mundo and been the last opponents to end the Winter Wars.

I'm banking on one more arc involving Hell (that the gates opened up to send that parrot eating hollow to early in the story, unless it was a mistranslation and they meant Hueco Mundo) and The King's Realm. And this is Baragon- http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Baragon&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Crazytype
June 20, 2008, 08:27 AM
Isshin lost his powers 20 years before the timeline.. so, i guess his story will come later..

He didn't "lost" his powers, but didn't leave his gigai for nearly 20 years.(since chapter 0; because of his life on earth.) Who still don't know how and when he met Urahara.

hyn_pride93
June 20, 2008, 08:38 AM
And this is Baragon- http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Baragon&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

um... what were you trying to show us? because that link doesnt show us at all who Barragon is.

this is Barragon, the old man in the middle http://cdimg2.crunchyroll.com/i/spire4/03202008/a/c/0/8/ac08c1862780d0_full.png

BigCamaro
June 20, 2008, 08:45 AM
I guess him not making a gigai for Yoruichi and her having her own solution explains the cat form. I guess it allows her to avoid emitting spiritual energy on earth. And if the Vaizards really are still in the real Kurakura Town in SS could they be headed to attack SS? Central 46?
[hr]

um... what were you trying to show us? because that link doesnt show us at all who Barragon is.

this is Barragon, the old man in the middle http://cdimg2.crunchyroll.com/i/spire4/03202008/a/c/0/8/ac08c1862780d0_full.png

He's an old Monster (born in Hiroshima). Just like the Espada #1,2,or 3?

Just like this is Manda from Naruto: http://www.monsterjones.com/Manda_Atragon.jpg

tidal_alchemist87
June 20, 2008, 08:56 AM
Well regardless of what happens, I'm really not sorry for central 46 because of the way they handled the situation.

mdp
June 20, 2008, 10:11 AM
I guess him not making a gigai for Yoruichi and her having her own solution explains the cat form. I guess it allows her to avoid emitting spiritual energy on earth. And if the Vaizards really are still in the real Kurakura Town in SS could they be headed to attack SS? Central 46?


Well there is two options as I see it to where the vizards are:
A. They got transfered along with everyone else to Rukongai in SS when they made the switch. (But as to what you were saying, I dont think they would go after Central 46 since the ones who made that ruling were killed off by Aizen already, so killing some new guys wouldn't make very much since) But they could try and go off after the SS King, I mean Shinji, Afro & Kensei were all captains, I assume for a good amount of time, so they must know of him, but thats a whole other topic.

B. Hacchis barrier kept them right where they were so when they moved the whole town, this did not include the vizards facilities, therefore they are still right where they were but only now they are in the "manufactured Karakura town." This is the option that I see most likley happening

I think it will go a little something like this:
*Alot of the captains are getting defeated*
The vizard gang shows up
Shinji: Soup guys looks like your having a little trouble?
Yama: WTF how are you here, ahhh hacchi.
Shinji: *Begins a brief speech on how they were not moved do to barrier* and then then ass-kicking of Aizens espada begins. :tem

Mythsoul
June 20, 2008, 10:17 AM
Interesting chapter....so this is how everythign fits....now let's see Uchigo Vs Ulquiorra #2 ...and hopefully Ichigo can take full control of his hollow powers.for more than damn 11 seconds...

and I would like to know...where Ichigo father fits on all this.....he has a huge Riatsu....where in the history does he fits.hmmm

mdp
June 20, 2008, 10:24 AM
and I would like to know...where Ichigo father fits on all this.....he has a huge Riatsu....where in the history does he fits.hmmm

It will be interesting to see where he fits into all of this. You cant forget his massive annihilation of Gigantor-Grand Fisher. I think Kubo will wait tho, for his explanation. If Isshin does get involved we will get a short mini explanation, followed by a -20 chapter hopefully! But the "seed" behind ichigo surley is a beast.

AngryChubbs
June 20, 2008, 10:25 AM
a coupel of thoughts...ichigo was never made into a holow like the others were...so he is still the special case since he became a hollow and shinigami at the same time, thats why i think he will have more power than the rest of the viazards. he is sort of a split personality.

also, i dont think ss has too many people, lets not forget that aizen still has his army of hollows and also we dont know how many vastolores he has. so it'll be a good long war

Verbal
June 20, 2008, 11:12 AM
Great chapter, enough to get me posting! (Means alot)

Just thought I'd re-refer ppl to this.


Hitsugaya
"...Vastolord class menos' battle ability exceeds those of captain level"
"If there are more than 10 vastolord classes under Aizen's control, SS is finished"

Aizen
"Welcome back Ulquiorra, Yammy. Tell us your findings, to your 20 fellows"


With this in mind, Aizen probably isn't outnumbered as much as many of us think he is.

gold349
June 20, 2008, 11:23 AM
Interesting chapter....so this is how everythign fits....now let's see Uchigo Vs Ulquiorra #2 ...and hopefully Ichigo can take full control of his hollow powers.for more than damn 11 seconds...

and I would like to know...where Ichigo father fits on all this.....he has a huge Riatsu....where in the history does he fits.hmmm


We have seen Ichigo keep his mask on for longer than 11 sec., although he can keep his mask on for longer he is still far from max power. The hollow inside did tell him not to die until he shows up again, to give him his power, maybe this fight with Ulquaria, his hollow will grant him that full power.

Ulquaria with out releasing took on Ichigo's getsuga tenshou with the mask on barehanded. Ichigo is going to have to have had some major power and strength to force Ulquaria to pull out his sword, this battle is going to be far from easy, Ichigo is going to have to show some sort improvement which I can not see, just from being healed. I think he needs the full support and strength from his hollow in order for him to push Ulquaria to pull out his sword, then release and what ever else that makes them special from number 5 espada and down, I think number 4 and above are Vastro.

we have seen Shinigami release and now Arrancar release, going over old chapters I noticed that yamma's release www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/23-24, very similar to how Arrancar release their swords, his body went under change too, not exactly the way arrancar or espada but his body was altered to at the same time, I don't know if this is important or relevant but it looked suspect to me. I'm not saying for one minute that yamma is Vaizard or he is like Ichigo or even that he is traitor, Yamma is on the good side that I do know.

zzlow
June 20, 2008, 11:44 AM
whose bodies mauri found behind door?

patedecarne
June 20, 2008, 12:05 PM
whose bodies mauri found behind door?

We'll find it soon, I'm sure, but I can assure you, those bodies doesn't belong to Cirucci and Dordoni, probably the're related with the gaiden events, but how kubo will link I don't know, though...

gigantor21
June 20, 2008, 12:28 PM
Great chapter, enough to get me posting! (Means alot)

Just thought I'd re-refer ppl to this.


With this in mind, Aizen probably isn't outnumbered as much as many of us think he is.

D-Roy and Shawlong were among that 20, so I doubt it. The other 10 were probably just Fracciones. Plus, if there were 20 Espada, they all would've been in the tea scene--and we know that the 10 we've seen are the strongest ones.

It would be interesting if there were 2 Espada groups, though.

Ripht
June 20, 2008, 12:32 PM
i think urahara might turn out to be a vizard as well, would be quite awesome to see.

As for ichigo's father, there was a mention of a captain getting transferred to the royal guard, could possibly of been isshin under a different name? altho i think it might of said that the said captain was female but i'm not too sure.

I think the vizards will definiatly be fighting against aizen, but might not be fighting with SS but more with urahara. Its most likely then when the fight with aizen is over the captains will turn on the vizards because they are part hollow and where meant to be executed.

One part in the translation confused me tho, right at the end they said they owe so much to kisuke and to aizen, now do they mean that in a vengeful way or maybe they want to help fight the captains that abandoned them and left the to be executed as hollows????

calenatarion
June 20, 2008, 12:37 PM
The old dude who says "I will now sentence you" also said that a 124 guards and ONE CAPTAIN could vouch for Aizen.

Who the hell is that one captain? Gin isn't a captain yet and so isn't Kaname...

dreamzsai
June 20, 2008, 12:42 PM
If you do some back reading, you'll see it's Kyoraku Shunsui....

I believe the Vizards are still in the real world, considering Urahara know them, and is in charge of "moving" karakura to SS, he probably won't be moving them along.

TheChosenOne
June 20, 2008, 12:43 PM
Who the hell is that one captain? Gin isn't a captain yet and so isn't Kaname...

It's likely Shunsui considering he saw (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-316.4/page002.html) Aizen while he was taking a walk. :)

segua
June 20, 2008, 12:58 PM
Shouldnt Shinji and the Vaizards be in the transported Kurakura town up in SS? Or was the transportation taking them into account? or not powerful enough to move their barrier? Maybe they plan on going from SS to there. I really didnt think Aizen and his top 3 Espada could beat all the vaizards, the captains sent, Urahara, Isshin, and Yoruichi.

So my thought was itd just be them vs the Captains shown, then he'd go after the real Kurakura town in SS, which is when he'd have to face the Vaizards again, Isshin, Urahara, Yoruichi, and by then Ighigo and the others would've broken free of Hueco Mundo and been the last opponents to end the Winter Wars.

I'm banking on one more arc involving Hell (that the gates opened up to send that parrot eating hollow to early in the story, unless it was a mistranslation and they meant Hueco Mundo) and The King's Realm. And this is Baragon- http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Baragon&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

That's what I'm thinking. So now Aizen just needs to get the correct coordinates to the real Kurakara Town.

Actually, what is Gin and Kaname up to? Could those two still be in HC?

finalnight
June 20, 2008, 01:00 PM
even if the vizards join the ss group, I still think aizen has a plan to deal with them. he knows of their existence. so far in the entire series, aizen has yet to be defeated or have a plan defeated even once.

poobert
June 20, 2008, 01:27 PM
Ulquaria with out releasing took on Ichigo's getsuga tenshou with the mask on barehanded. Ichigo is going to have to have had some major power and strength to force Ulquaria to pull out his sword, this battle is going to be far from easy, Ichigo is going to have to show some sort improvement which I can not see, just from being healed. I think he needs the full support and strength from his hollow in order for him to push Ulquaria to pull out his sword, then release and what ever else that makes them special from number 5 espada and down, I think number 4 and above are Vastro.


I don't think an improvement to beat Ulquaria is all that hard to believe. Just think of the improvement Ichigo went through just from one fight with Kenpachi. Not to mention that Ulquaria even says his power can be greater than his http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/16/.

The 20 companions is interesting. Perhaps they are Vasto lorde that have yet to become arancar. Maybe waiting for a fully awakened hyogoku before they undergo the transformation.

gigantor21
June 20, 2008, 01:32 PM
You know, something about this chapter is bothering me.

We pretty much guessed, of course, that Central 46 would respond this way. But why didnt't Urahara just tell them to hear Shinji out? Aizen described his entire plan to him before he collapsed. I don't see why they couldn't have postponed the trial to hear an eyewitness account--and the scene would've been much more convincing had they struck down Hirako's testimony as ridiculous.

Just a thought.

dreamzsai
June 20, 2008, 01:38 PM
Central 46's decision was to handle/dispose Shinji and Co as Hollows. It's only logical they won't wanna hear them out, seeing how you probably won't take anything a Hollow says as right.
Clearly Aizen must have weaved up an entire story of the situation, and the Central 46 are idiots =D

bladehappy
June 20, 2008, 02:02 PM
Ichigo vs. Ulq:

Ichigo gets his ass kicked and on the verge of death (lol). Then he loses control of his hollow, his hollow comes back, comes out, and Ulq shits bricks, dies in two chapters.

erik-the-red
June 20, 2008, 02:17 PM
After re-reading the chapter it really seems as though Hirako was saying how he is in debt to Urahara (in a good way/owes him something) and in debt to Aizen (to give him an ass kicking/rip his face off). Well thats just my .02$ on the confusion with that line

Makes sense to me. I certainly don't see the Vaizards siding with Aizen, as some have speculated.

JeffS
June 20, 2008, 02:18 PM
After re-reading the chapter it really seems as though Hirako was saying how he is in debt to Urahara (in a good way/owes him something) and in debt to Aizen (to give him an ass kicking/rip his face off). Well thats just my .02$ on the confusion with that line

that is EXACTLY what I thought

I hope it's true... It would be retarded if they fought for Aizen or had some vigilante thing going on.

Something I don't get though -- the whole thing between Ulquiorra and Ichigo... If Ichigo is in trouble, can't Kenpachi and Byakuya come fight with him? I mean, they're literally RIGHT THERE.

BigCamaro
June 20, 2008, 02:43 PM
^the vaizards were abandoned and would have been killed by SS after all they had done for them so I could see them having a vendetta. But they do have good hearts, so outside of central 46 I dont see them killing anyone. Maybe they'd think ridding SS of the 46 would make SS a better place. Of course, would they know central 46 has already been killed by Aizen himself?

If they are in SS maybe they want to make their presence known again to the remaining Shinigami. But are there any captain levels not on earth/Hueco Mundo?

yemsta
June 20, 2008, 02:46 PM
Unless aizen & co. are unbelievably strong i dont see how they stand a chance against the vaizards to be honest. I think this is going to be more of aizen and his hacks shikai.

naruto-niichan
June 20, 2008, 02:49 PM
that is EXACTLY what I thought

I hope it's true... It would be retarded if they fought for Aizen or had some vigilante thing going on.

Something I don't get though -- the whole thing between Ulquiorra and Ichigo... If Ichigo is in trouble, can't Kenpachi and Byakuya come fight with him? I mean, they're literally RIGHT THERE.

yes, you're right, but don't forget that there are a few other enemies ;) like the Exequias, Yammy and Wonderweiss (who has an Espada-Level) and a lot of other arrancar. When i think of it, there will be very much fights for the next months O__o

P.S: I'm sorry for my bad english xD

C4animax
June 20, 2008, 03:32 PM
In the end it really seems that urahara is as smart as aizen when it comes to plan his way out (i'd even say everything).

When i see the visard at the end i keep thinking that one(some) of them will be used to aizen cause (doesn't he need reiatsu?).



Ichigo vs. Ulq:

Ichigo gets his ass kicked and on the verge of death (lol). Then he loses control of his hollow, his hollow comes back, comes out, and Ulq shits bricks, dies in two chapters.

That'd be nice to see hollow ichigo coming back for a few time, but i think that it's now over, ichigo kicked his hollow side for good. After grimjow's fight he could handle his mask for an "unlimited" amount of time"...

Since orihime can fix things/human/situation back to normal, that could happen, but seems very unlikly to me. (i don't forget what ulquira said the first time he met ichigo)

grimm
June 20, 2008, 03:42 PM
I was hoping this chapter will explain where Isshin's place in all these. He is captain level too so he can't go unnoticed if he left SS.

animemania
June 20, 2008, 04:01 PM
great chapter.

I really think that Aizen is gonna be screaming for mercy when his Espada are slaughtered one after the other.
There is no way the Vaizards would fight on Aizen's side since Shinji is practically their leader and he obvioulsy wants Aizen dead for what he did to the. Sure he gave them their new found power, but he was going to dispose of them anyways.

The captains in SS are really strong, and they could definitely do some serious damage to Aizen's squad, but With the added bonus of Vaizards aiding in the fight, he's totally out-gunned and out-manned.

This fight is gonna be awesome since we don't really know what kind of powers the espada and the vaizards have up their sleeves. Who know's maybe we'll finally see Uruhara go all out.

llamapie
June 20, 2008, 04:04 PM
You know, something about this chapter is bothering me.

We pretty much guessed, of course, that Central 46 would respond this way. But why didnt't Urahara just tell them to hear Shinji out? Aizen described his entire plan to him before he collapsed. I don't see why they couldn't have postponed the trial to hear an eyewitness account--and the scene would've been much more convincing had they struck down Hirako's testimony as ridiculous.

Just a thought.

The answer to that lies in how they judged shinji. "We will deal with them as hollows". So essentially since they have crossed over they are viewed no more than hollow now.

Really stupid situation caused by the pompous management in Soul Society. If they only were fair about their trials then, perhaps the whole current issues around the Hougyoku would never be. But no they judged without even investigating the issue.

Alexis
June 20, 2008, 04:10 PM
You know, something about this chapter is bothering me.

We pretty much guessed, of course, that Central 46 would respond this way. But why didnt't Urahara just tell them to hear Shinji out? Aizen described his entire plan to him before he collapsed. I don't see why they couldn't have postponed the trial to hear an eyewitness account--and the scene would've been much more convincing had they struck down Hirako's testimony as ridiculous.

Just a thought.
Well at the time, I don't think Shinji or any of the others were in any condition to speak. But afterwards, I don't know. Perhaps because they viewed Shinji and the others as hollows. Or perhaps Urahara and co. wanted to realise Aizen's plan rather than scare him off.

llamapie
June 20, 2008, 04:12 PM
Well at the time, I don't think Shinji or any of the others were in any condition to speak. But afterwards, I don't know. Perhaps they wanted to realise Aizen's plan rather than scare him off.

Well the proof is in whats given to us.
They refused to even hear Ukitake out. Let alone a bunch of officers they deamed as Hollow trash. I think they were hypnotized by Aizen.

hyn_pride93
June 20, 2008, 05:08 PM
I guess him not making a gigai for Yoruichi and her having her own solution explains the cat form. I guess it allows her to avoid emitting spiritual energy on earth. And if the Vaizards really are still in the real Kurakura Town in SS could they be headed to attack SS? Central 46?
<hr noshade size="1">

If they are in the real KT, then I dont think that they're gonna head back to Earth. If they know whats going on, and they should, then they're most likely gonna protect the real KT so that no one can destroy it and turn it into the key.


He's an old Monster (born in Hiroshima). Just like the Espada #1,2,or 3?

Just like this is Manda from Naruto: http://www.monsterjones.com/Manda_Atragon.jpg

ok, i gotchu now. :tem

l0stsk8r99
June 20, 2008, 05:25 PM
Ok, let me throw in my ideas.

Old Man Yammamoto is not the type of guy, to think and exhaust all possible outcomes of a situation. He see's one very possible conclusion and there is evidence to support that scenario he's going to follow it. We've seen him do it here and he's done it again in the bleach movie. So him listening to Kisuke and hearing out his side of the story isn't in his character.

Secondly, I dont think the Vizards are going to hold a grudge against SS. Let's think about it, Kisuke helps them gain control of there hollow powers and are left to do what they want. They are indebted to Kisuke and follow him and what he believes. If anything, if Kisuke wanted to go against SS he could but why would he? It's apparent that Yammamoto came to him and asked for his help when constructing the senkei gate to HM for the captains. So I can assume that he would say, "Yo, my bad on that whole aizen thing...we cool?" So you should expect the vizards to help SS in what I can only anticipate as the most epic of epic battles we have ever seen.

Thirdly, I have to agree with those saying that Ichigo is not at his full hollow potential. He only knows his Getsuga Tenshou attack with his bankai form and uses it with his hollow form. He doesn't know anything else, and can't use a Cero. Which based on Shinji's fight, he should eventually learn. So a good twist would to see ichigo battle inside his mind to learn a cero or learn at least the next level in hollow skills.

Finally, as per everyones discussing the old man from Central 46 and the old man from Espada #2, i want to chalk it up to just generic similarities. If I may reference Naruto at this point, Gara's brother, the puppet master without his make-up on look exactly/similar to Naruto. Which put everyone on this theory that they were somehow related when in fact that they just are drawn similar. So i highly doubt that there is some type of connection there.

hyn_pride93
June 20, 2008, 05:41 PM
ur points sound good. and ya, Ichigo isnt even at full hollow yet. once he does that, everything will be killer.

but hey is everyone forgeting someone that can be of some use to the good side even though this character wont be liked by SS? hello!!!!! we still have our beloved, and blessed, sexy beast NEL!!!!! she isnt dead. she's still in HM. if she stays on Ichigo's side, then she'll be one to fear later on. she wouldve killed Noi but she poofed back into her kid form. all she needs to do to become an adult again is get hit on the head, or better yet, have Orihime take her back in time. even if her mind is restored to her old self, I doubt she'll be bad, because even back then she hated fighting and bloodshed. so I think that she'll end up helping Ichigo up to a certain point. but just when everything is going good, Aizen, Gin, or Tousen, or someone else comes along and takes Nel with them. then they change her mind around and turn her bad/super evil so that Ichigo is tricked into saving her but in the end becomes the opponent

iketaurus
June 20, 2008, 05:45 PM
great chapter...cant wait for the throwdown.

all the loose ends are being tied together and I couldnt have asked for more...Bleach is turning out to be one of the best if not the best manga out right now

the storyline has really come together

RogueNin
June 20, 2008, 05:51 PM
I can't believe some didn't understand what Shinji meant at the end. When he said "We are in debt to Aisen", it means they are going to repay him by kicking his ass all the way back to HM. And that is why your adrenaline rises when you read the last page(at least mine does), because the whole turn back the pendulum shows what kind of feelings the vaizards have against Aizen, and you know what? They have been waiting 100 years for this time to come. PAYBACK TIME.

I agree the old man in Central and #2 Espada similarity is a coincidence. You should be used by now (Naruto, Pain, etc, it happens in mangas).

I too believe Vaizards are in real KT to kick Aizen , Gin and KAname(Urahara predicted this and let them there I believe for protection). These 3 should be quite tough to be able to handle 8 vaizards, half of them being captain level. Kaname is not that strong(remember Kenpachi beat his bankai...of course that's Kenpachi) so we'll see just how tough Gin and maybe Aizen's bankai is.

Going back to fake KT, I also wonder how strong the top 3 Espadas are. Ok, #5 took a toll on Kenpachi himself and had a huge difference from #6, so they are going to have a really hard time, even having them outnumbered(consider lieutenant level's power negligible). And at last we'll see "the captain with the hat and beard"(don't remember name) fight again. He rocks.

If #5 was that strong now, how will Ichigo manage beat #4? This Saiyan thing where if you get close to death and healed become more powerful has been overused. My guess is another talk with his sword maybe, combined with his hollow form and bankai.Ulqiorra on the other hand didn't even get his sword, so I wonder how powerful he will be in released form.Ichigo will have to greatly surpass himself, and I hope that outburst of power will be explained reasonably. Nice link btw of the page with Ulqiorra saying Ichigo's reiatsu is greater than his at times. Very helpful.

I wonder where Urahara and Yoruichi will fight? Yoruichi may face the female Arrancar, Urahara might go to KT to fight Aizen himself.

Ichigo's dad may have been put to sleep.Who knows.

Anyone knows what happened to Tessai, kidou captain?

hyn_pride93
June 20, 2008, 05:51 PM
it really has. and to OneManga, Bleach is the second best manga on their charts. bcuz the best manga on their charts is Naruto

and RogueNin, I dont think that Isshin was put to sleep. Urahara knows that he's gonna wanna protect his family and friends. so he's prob in the real KT, thats a given, but he's also with Tessai to make sure that they can save everyone in time.

BigCamaro
June 20, 2008, 05:51 PM
to add to why the vaizards wouldn't be heard out by central 46 even if they did speak on Urahara's behalf. If theyre viewed as his experiments, Central 46 will view it along the lines of witchcraft in the 1800's. They will assume he has control over them to make them say these things, and as hollows their words aren't valid anyway.

Looking back at when Shusui spotted Aizen. It seems like he guessed he was behind the trouble as well, but from his words when he says "Maybe I was overthinking things" after looking at Aizen, it makes it seem like by seeing him he realizes he can't be behind it. Of course there is a double meaning because its ties into why he was staying up so long, and then he pretends to just be seeing Aizen when he distracts the other two shinigami with the old "oh look its aizen" trick after already having seen him over a page ago.

hajialibaig
June 20, 2008, 06:32 PM
Nice chapter! I bet Shinji can't wait to repay Aizen after getting humiliated a 100 years ago. Aizen basically made a fool out of him

llamapie
June 20, 2008, 06:35 PM
great chapter...cant wait for the throwdown.

all the loose ends are being tied together and I couldnt have asked for more...Bleach is turning out to be one of the best if not the best manga out right now

the storyline has really come together

OT: Read all of Berserk. Its been around forever and the character development is amazing. The story is well, not shonen, but very much so an excellent manga. The artwork is on a whole other level from typical manga and the story probably won't be done by the time the author dies xD

Anyways back on topic, oddly enough this chapter answered enough questions, I think Urahara has as much a beef with Aizen as the Vizards do, being humiliated and his legacy being removed.

These next chapters are gonna be so fricking cool!!

~~Also this chapter and the previous bring me to one question: Why didn't Urahara inform the Ichigo group before they entered SS the first time? Its vital information.

hyn_pride93
June 20, 2008, 06:46 PM
maybe he wanted them to figure it out on their own. or maybe he didnt think that Aizen was still after the hougyoku or didnt think that Aizen was gonna be able to find it

darkband
June 20, 2008, 07:30 PM
I can't believe some didn't understand what Shinji meant at the end. When he said "We are in debt to Aisen", it means they are going to repay him by kicking his ass all the way back to HM. And that is why your adrenaline rises when you read the last page(at least mine does), because the whole turn back the pendulum shows what kind of feelings the vaizards have against Aizen, and you know what? They have been waiting 100 years for this time to come. PAYBACK TIME.

I agree the old man in Central and #2 Espada similarity is a coincidence. You should be used by now (Naruto, Pain, etc, it happens in mangas).

I too believe Vaizards are in real KT to kick Aizen , Gin and KAname(Urahara predicted this and let them there I believe for protection). These 3 should be quite tough to be able to handle 8 vaizards, half of them being captain level. Kaname is not that strong(remember Kenpachi beat his bankai...of course that's Kenpachi) so we'll see just how tough Gin and maybe Aizen's bankai is.

Going back to fake KT, I also wonder how strong the top 3 Espadas are. Ok, #5 took a toll on Kenpachi himself and had a huge difference from #6, so they are going to have a really hard time, even having them outnumbered(consider lieutenant level's power negligible). And at last we'll see "the captain with the hat and beard"(don't remember name) fight again. He rocks.

If #5 was that strong now, how will Ichigo manage beat #4? This Saiyan thing where if you get close to death and healed become more powerful has been overused. My guess is another talk with his sword maybe, combined with his hollow form and bankai.Ulqiorra on the other hand didn't even get his sword, so I wonder how powerful he will be in released form.Ichigo will have to greatly surpass himself, and I hope that outburst of power will be explained reasonably. Nice link btw of the page with Ulqiorra saying Ichigo's reiatsu is greater than his at times. Very helpful.

I wonder where Urahara and Yoruichi will fight? Yoruichi may face the female Arrancar, Urahara might go to KT to fight Aizen himself.

Ichigo's dad may have been put to sleep.Who knows.

Anyone knows what happened to Tessai, kidou captain?

One way to reasonably explain it is that being so close to death sharpened his instincts, and made him get his head in gear so that he can use his power more effectively. That is seriously what Ichigo lacks, instinct and focus. But lets face it, he hasn't had years to do this like everyone else in the manga, he has only been a shinigami for about 6 months. I think though that he is finally getting the message that he needs to rely on his instincts.

Anyone find it a bit odd how the Central 46 knows exactly how many people can vouch for Aizen. They said 124 and a captain, not just some generic over a hundred. It probably means that Aizen tipped them off, and then gave them his alibi, and smoothed it over with his shikai.

The Vizards though are definitely on the kick Aizen's ass side. He ruined their lives and regardless of whether they side with SS, they are against Aizen.

Zeus-Tails
June 20, 2008, 08:37 PM
There is not one Vizard that I think can take Aizen one on one.

animemania
June 20, 2008, 08:58 PM
Anyone knows what happened to Tessai, kidou captain?

If you re-read some of the earlier chapters of the manga (around 60 to 70), you will know that Tessai is Uruhara's shop helper. He restrained Ichigo while his soul chain was being corroded.

godofthesunn
June 20, 2008, 09:41 PM
so hiroko thanked aizen .. ? what.. Can someone explain the last two pages for me
Miscalulation?

Hiroko had better smite aizen using only bankai and not hollow power.. As always I dont predict that the captians will be able to handle the top 3 espada.. the vizard on the other hand should be on par if not more powerful than the espada Aizen will then be the question mark..

Also I predict we see Aizen's Bankai

karimamin
June 20, 2008, 09:58 PM
I think Aizen is going to defeat everyone in FKT. Remember, everyone should still be subjected to his hypnosis. In a sense, he can have people fight each other by just making their friends look like enemies. Of course the stronger shinigami will figure out a way out but by then, most of them could be decimated by their own hands. Then Aizen has his Bankai. It's power obviously is something stronger than Hypnosis. Maybe it's power is what caused the hollowization. How dangerous would that be? A few seconds after your slashed, you turn into a hollow and start attacking your friends.

Also, I think Aizen is a vizard himself or something a little different. His power is obviously on another level than the other captains (as shown in the SS arc). He's no normal captain. Even then when he was outnumbered, he calmly went as he pleased. I can't wait to see how Ichigo manages to defeat him in the end.

Edit: If Aizen's sword causes hollowization, perhaps his sword can control those who he turned thus gaining control over Shinji and the others.

Jehuty
June 20, 2008, 10:02 PM
If you re-read some of the earlier chapters of the manga (around 60 to 70), you will know that Tessai is Uruhara's shop helper. He restrained Ichigo while his soul chain was being corroded.
So Hacchi, the Kidou liuetenant was able to wrangle Hollow-Kensei, but the spell used by Tessai, the Kidou captain got blasted away during Ichigo's initial Hollow/Shinigami transformation. Does this say that Ichio/his Hollow are exceptionally badass?

jinndtonic
June 20, 2008, 10:23 PM
it really has. and to OneManga, Bleach is the second best manga on their charts. bcuz the best manga on their charts is Naruto

and RogueNin, I dont think that Isshin was put to sleep. Urahara knows that he's gonna wanna protect his family and friends. so he's prob in the real KT, thats a given, but he's also with Tessai to make sure that they can save everyone in time.

its at instances like this that having quotes is good, cause its conf
using what your talking about until you scroll up two posts

gundam_akira
June 20, 2008, 11:05 PM
Any1 remember Akon, the little Shinigaimi boy in Team Twelve who keeps arguing with Hiyori?

I think Ichigo's father, Isshin, may be that boy?

Since all the Shinigaimi (Gin, Byakuya,...) after 100 years has grown up to be adults after 100 years? About 55 years, the former teenager, Byakuya was already an adult and married Rukia's elder sister.

So, if he met Ichigo's mother 20 years or slightly earlier, he should have been an adult already.

Jehuty
June 20, 2008, 11:11 PM
Any1 remember Akon, the little Shinigaimi boy in Team Twelve who keeps arguing with Hiyori?

I think Ichigo's father, Isshin, may be that boy?

Since all the Shinigaimi (Gin, Byakuya,...) after 100 years has grown up to be adults after 100 years? About 55 years, the former teenager, Byakuya was already an adult and married Rukia's elder sister.

So, if he met Ichigo's mother 20 years or slightly earlier, he should have been an adult already.
Akon's been seen as an adult, running the science center under Mayuri, apparently.

gundam_akira
June 20, 2008, 11:16 PM
Shinji Hirako speech in giving the same thanks to Kisuke Urahara and Aizen, seems to implied he looks at both in the same light...meaning the Vizards may blame Urahara for causing their hollowification to be permanement while being grateful for the new powers they gained.

Remember Hiyori said she dislike both Shinigaimi and Hollows earlier during the arc where they tried to entice Ichigo to their side?
[hr]

Akon's been seen as an adult, running the science center under Mayuri, apparently.

Um, sorry, which chapter, k direct me?

The only one that I remember seeing him is only in this chapter, "http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.06/12/"

Jehuty
June 20, 2008, 11:22 PM
Shinji Hirako speech in giving the same thanks to Kisuke Urahara and Aizen, seems to implied he looks at both in the same light...meaning the Vizards may blame Urahara for causing their hollowification to be permanement while being grateful for the new powers they gained.

Remember Hiyori said she dislike both Shinigaimi and Hollows earlier during the arc where they tried to entice Ichigo to their side?
[hr]


Um, sorry, which chapter, k direct me?

The only one that I remember seeing him is only in this chapter, "http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.06/12/"
Ugh. Too lazy to dig through the chapters. When Rukia's gigai comes back, Akon is there and states that anyone with enough skill to craft it would be exiled from Soul Society.

graphic_content
June 20, 2008, 11:52 PM
i think this chapter ended on a really badass note - walking shot of the Vizards...nice.

can anyone offer a little clarification or insight? Are the vizards angry with Aizen AND Urahara, or simply recognize the Urahara tried to save them, and Aizen is the REAL cause?

i guess time will really only tell who they plan on taking revenge on, but the chapters end left me believing that Urahara was a prime target as well.

toussaintac
June 20, 2008, 11:53 PM
I think Shinji was thanking Kisuke for helping him and he was thanking Aizen for indirectly making him stronger (and I also think he means he's going to thank Aizen for what Aizen did to him, i.e. treating him as an experiment, by helping SS defeat him).

meow79
June 21, 2008, 12:10 AM
Shinji Hirako speech in giving the same thanks to Kisuke Urahara and Aizen, seems to implied he looks at both in the same light...meaning the Vizards may blame Urahara for causing their hollowification to be permanement while being grateful for the new powers they gained.

Remember Hiyori said she dislike both Shinigaimi and Hollows earlier during the arc where they tried to entice Ichigo to their side?
<hr noshade size="1">


Um, sorry, which chapter, k direct me?

The only one that I remember seeing him is only in this chapter, "http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.06/12/"

I beg to differ i think its the other way around. Shijin thank urahara for saving them from becoming hollow and giving them back their sanity and thanking aizen for giving them these new powers so that they can kick his ass

and for y hiyori hated shimigami b/c central 46 tried to kill them rather than trying to help them. they just treat the 4 caps and 4 vice as disposable and to be killed as hollow while they are not they are still 100% shimigami in their heart but just gain hollow powers

just think in this way, if u 1 day gain some new powers/abilities but u are 1st of ur kind, and ur gov ordered to have u killed b/c they fear u or just being jealous at u, will u be piss at them?

YJiang
June 21, 2008, 12:11 AM
Anyone else remember the line where KT said Unohana would have a battle in the near future? Isn't she in Hueco Mundo as well? Maybe she'll battle Ulquiorra as well.

Jehuty
June 21, 2008, 12:18 AM
Anyone else remember the line where KT said Unohana would have a battle in the near future? Isn't she in Hueco Mundo as well? Maybe she'll battle Ulquiorra as well.
Honestly, I hope to God not.

ryanzokuken
June 21, 2008, 12:29 AM
i'm pretty sure by "indebted" to Urahara, he means it literally. like they should be thankful for everything he did for them to try to help them.

and for Aizen, i think he means "indebted" as in they owe him some ass kickage and pain for what he did to them.

euhsung
June 21, 2008, 12:36 AM
So Hacchi, the Kidou liuetenant was able to wrangle Hollow-Kensei, but the spell used by Tessai, the Kidou captain got blasted away during Ichigo's initial Hollow/Shinigami transformation. Does this say that Ichio/his Hollow are exceptionally badass?

Well, look at it this way:

At the time, Hacchi was out of options, so he simply used the most direct and brutal way of restraining Kensei possible. Even Shinji commented on the necessity of using B99; it certainly <i>knocked Kensei out</i>.

On the other hand, look how carefully Tessai set up his B99 to harm Ichigo as little as possible. That takes way more skill than simply slamming it down like how Hacchi did it.

It short, it boils down to: Kensei was knocked out. Ichigo wasn't. Also keep in mind that Ichigo's case was way earlier, we'd only seen what? B1 and B99 then? There was no way to make any comparisons in terms of strength.

Makiyura
June 21, 2008, 01:07 AM
If Bender [ from futurama] where here, he would say that Aizen is "...pending for a bending!" great chapter, and the last page was awesome. I enjoyed the Central 46 are dead, those guys are pricks (probably weak too)

ShaunMati1
June 21, 2008, 01:30 AM
My question is what route will kubo show us next? Will he show us Ichigo vs Ulquiorra, or Go straight to Aizen and co. vs SS. Will he show the vaizards going to the battle or protecting SS. Or show Urahara and Tessai and Yoruichi walking out also. So many options and so many things to show. Everything seems to get better from here on out. My hope is that bleach lasts 2 more years, but it does kinda seem like its coming to and end sooner even if many questions arent answered.

Xerte
June 21, 2008, 01:54 AM
i think ulq vs ichigo my come first..
yama vs aizen is the "main event" of this arc, and i don't think it will be without great surprire, so i think we'll see the ulq/ichigo..
yama vs aizen will be a looong fight, with all the other, and also if we see yamamoto now we also see vaizard...too many things right now, first the easy fight ^^

Devil-buster
June 21, 2008, 01:57 AM
Well, look at it this way:

At the time, Hacchi was out of options, so he simply used the most direct and brutal way of restraining Kensei possible. Even Shinji commented on the necessity of using B99; it certainly <i>knocked Kensei out</i>.

On the other hand, look how carefully Tessai set up his B99 to harm Ichigo as little as possible. That takes way more skill than simply slamming it down like how Hacchi did it.

It short, it boils down to: Kensei was knocked out. Ichigo wasn't. Also keep in mind that Ichigo's case was way earlier, we'd only seen what? B1 and B99 then? There was no way to make any comparisons in terms of strength.

I think tessai was trying to kill ichigo at that time because he was turning into a hollow....and tessai used the incantation where as hacchi did not...which essential means tessai's kido was stronger....

animerawkz
June 21, 2008, 02:25 AM
I thought i should point this out.

From http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.12/17/ Yoruichi did not escape together with Urahara, Tessai, Hirako and co. But instead she escaped at a different time. Perhaps only after she informed a certain someone about the events?

My take would be Shunsui. Yoruichi would probably want to confirm with him after stating that he had witnessed Aizen the night before and probably warn him about Aizen and co. That would explain his position during the SS arc (saving Rukia) and his silence/not surprised look when he heard of Aizen's betrayal.

Oh and how in the world did Yoruichi know about the incident? Dammm, she must be one sneaky person!

mrmgomes
June 21, 2008, 03:16 AM
Don't you think Yoruichi does look like a spy or something? I do. And that's how she knew what was happening.

Starzen
June 21, 2008, 03:28 AM
her primary job is to be a spy for ss.

animerawkz
June 21, 2008, 06:55 AM
Don't you think Yoruichi does look like a spy or something? I do. And that's how she knew what was happening.

I thought she dressed like that so that she could hide her identity.

Rotten The Wizard
June 21, 2008, 08:58 AM
hm, I sense this manga coming to an end. anything after this plot is just dragging it at this point


Unless Aizen and his squad kicks everyone's ass. that'd be something to see

Jehuty
June 21, 2008, 09:00 AM
I thought she dressed like that so that she could hide her identity.
Did a piss-poor job of it, I gotta say.

gigantor21
June 21, 2008, 09:25 AM
^ It would've been damn near impossible to begin with. How many female shunpou specialists are there, anyway? It's just her and Soi Fon, who look nothing alike.

I don't think it matters at this point, though. :p

grimm
June 21, 2008, 09:32 AM
I wonder what Urahara had so important that he busted Mayuri out of the joint. Did he forsee all of this and wanted him to continue what he was working on (whatever that may be)?

cr1mson
June 21, 2008, 11:45 AM
In the end it really seems that urahara is as smart as aizen when it comes to plan his way out (i'd even say everything).

When i see the visard at the end i keep thinking that one(some) of them will be used to aizen cause (doesn't he need reiatsu?).




That'd be nice to see hollow ichigo coming back for a few time, but i think that it's now over, ichigo kicked his hollow side for good. After grimjow's fight he could handle his mask for an "unlimited" amount of time"...

Since orihime can fix things/human/situation back to normal, that could happen, but seems very unlikly to me. (i don't forget what ulquira said the first time he met ichigo)


http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/221/17/

hollow says if he really wants his power dont die until i come back next time, im guessing he ll come back in ulq fight and we see true power of his hollow. :P

Boagrious
June 21, 2008, 11:57 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/221/17/

hollow says if he really wants his power dont die until i come back next time, im guessing he ll come back in ulq fight and we see true power of his hollow. :P

yeah I like that, If it happens maybe Ichigo will finally learn how to use cero.

hajialibaig
June 21, 2008, 12:04 PM
^ Yea, Ichigo's hollow pwns. Can't wait to see him resurface again .. :p

Starzen
June 21, 2008, 12:19 PM
I just hope that shirosaki has fully mastered zangetsu and that when he returns he not only give Ichigo his power but also teach him by showing him how.

toussaintac
June 21, 2008, 12:30 PM
^ Yea, Ichigo's hollow pwns. Can't wait to see him resurface again .. :p

I wonder how he'll try and fight Ulquiorra and his hollow (forgot his name if he has one) at the same time. I guess he'll be knocked out or half dead again and then he starts transforming because the hollow is taking over. He'll probably be like he was when he first fought his hollow while training with the Vizards (full armor, claws, tail, super regenration, etc.). He'll be super strong but fighting wildly since neither Ichigo nor the hollow have full control. He'll injure Ulquiorra to the point that he releases. He finally gains control with new abilities and off we go into round 3.
[hr]

I just hope that shirosaki has fully mastered zangetsu and that when he returns he not only give Ichigo his power but also teach him by showing him how.

One thing that I want to know is if every hollow is bad? What I mean is if a good soul dies, will the hollow necessarily be bad or does it still have the free will to do what it wants or will it only have free will once it becomes an Arrancar or something. If you look at Nell, she doesn't seem to have any evil intentions. Whether it's because of her losing memory I'm not sure. The reason I ask is because Ichgo's hollow is pretty bad and you think part of a good soul (Ichigo's) wouldn't be.

Starzen
June 21, 2008, 01:20 PM
hollows are just like everyone else is, there are both good and bad hollows just like humans, normal souls and shinigami.

toussaintac
June 21, 2008, 01:26 PM
hollows are just like everyone else is, there are both good and bad hollows just like humans, normal souls and shinigami.

So, why is Ichigo's hollow bad, If Ichigo's overall spirit is a good one?

Starzen
June 21, 2008, 01:39 PM
Ichigo is good but he loves fighting more than anything and he is simply lying to himself like both zaraki and GJ said while his hollow does not hide and hold back. shirosaki is simply ichigos alter ego while zangetsu is the brains, as you may already know it, those two is what ichigo lacks to be a first class warrior/fighter.

ryanzokuken
June 21, 2008, 01:53 PM
hollows are just like everyone else is, there are both good and bad hollows just like humans, normal souls and shinigami.

actually holows prey on humans and devour their souls. that's bad.

the only good hollows we've met are Nel and her former fraccion. and even they should still be eliminated, as they are hollows none the less.

toussaintac
June 21, 2008, 01:56 PM
Ichigo is good but he loves fighting more than anything and he is simply lying to himself like both zaraki and GJ said while his hollow does not hide and hold back. shirosaki is simply ichigos alter ego while zangetsu is the brains, as you may already know it, those two is what ichigo lacks to be a first class warrior/fighter.

Ok I see. Shirosaki isn't necessarily evil. He just likes to constantly test himself in fights and instead of Ichigo embracing his hollow side, he's pushing it away making himself weaker.

Starzen
June 21, 2008, 02:03 PM
@ ryanzokuken : hollows dont eat souls because they want to, if you go and read GJ flashbacks than you'll understand that they are just misunderstood and not bad, shinigamis are the ones who are bad and evil.

gigantor21
June 21, 2008, 02:17 PM
^ Moral/philosophical issues aside, the fact is that they're dangerous. The motive doesn't legitimize the act. And if it were possible to just talk Hollows out of eating souls, there'd be no need for Shinigami at all.

Also, please stay on topic.

Doombot
June 21, 2008, 02:40 PM
People already thinking the Vaizards are just going to walk up to Aizen and beat him down like that? Argh. I'm getting kinda sick and tired of explaining that Aizen is the man if we like it or not. He's not going to get scared or run in fear even if they kill his Espada. Aizen will just go blah blah blah and pull the out the Light-All according to plan nonsense and 15 more Espada will walk out behind the corner.

I think we truly are underestimating the Top 3 Espada though.

mars0103
June 21, 2008, 03:16 PM
^ Moral/philosophical issues aside, the fact is that they're dangerous. The motive doesn't legitimize the act. And if it were possible to just talk Hollows out of eating souls, there'd be no need for Shinigami at all.

Also, please stay on topic.

i think that we can not be sure that accarar need to kill because there have shimigami powers does that mean the hunger for souls have been fullfied. The espada have shown morals like the young men espada saying that sneak tactics are wrong kidnaping orhime.

While ichigos hollow is a hollow think that ichigos hollow is the pure oppoisite of ichigo. think yin and yang the brighter the light the darker the shadow

cero_tenshou
June 21, 2008, 03:17 PM
so the flashbacks are over and back to present time. i hope they bring the ichigo vs ulquiorra fight first, and after that's over with then they bring the aizen team vs captains fight. and i really wish ichigo gets time to train. the storyline is moving too fast for ichigo to develop properly. and i would hate for bleach to end with an incomplete main character (ichigo). ok fine, he gets a power-up and beats ulquiorra. then what? urahara/vaizards just come(s) and gets then out of HM and they run off to help the captains? i hope not. i think urahara should stop ichigo, sit him down (figuratively) and tell him plain and simple :" ichigo, at the level you are at now, you will just embarass yourself out there and definitely lose your life against aizen and those 3 espada. i'm going to train you and teach you everything that i know. only then will you be ready to face aizen". then the fight goes on between the espada and captains while urahara and yoroichi train ichigo together. they somehow will have some delay in the final war, so ichigo has enough time to really develop his powers. at least i hope so...

gigantor21
June 21, 2008, 03:19 PM
Doombot - We can only hope Aizen (or rather, Kubo) has a contingency plan in place for the Vaizards and Urahara's group. It has to be a solid, believable strategy, that does more than give Kubo an excuse for more plotless fights. I'll be shocked if he can pull it off. But if the Espada had actually lived up to their hype, he wouldn't need to in the first place.

We just have to see what happens, I guess.

Mars - Yes, the Arrancar have been far more stable than normal Hollows. I suspect that's a big reason so many of them signed on with Aizen, on top of the power boost. But they can never be fully human because A) the Hougyoku isn't that powerful and B) unlike the Shinigami, almost all of them are supposed to be pure villains. It'd be hard to antagonize them if Kubo made them as human as Nel. Hence, you get the bloodlust of a Grimmjow or Nori, the heartlessness of an Ulquiorra, and so on.

Travis
June 21, 2008, 03:25 PM
Didn't read the thread, but I wonder if the Vaizard will walk outside and realize they are in SS so it will take them awhile to get to the real world or something. It'd be odd if they were in the real world, where the fights are taking place. I think they would make it there in a minute or less. So I wonder what's actually going to happen here.

mars0103
June 21, 2008, 03:29 PM
Mars - Yes, the Arrancar have been far more stable than normal Hollows. I suspect that's a big reason so many of them signed on with Aizen, on top of the power boost. But they can never be fully human because A) the Hougyoku isn't that powerful and B) unlike the Shinigami, almost all of them are supposed to be pure villains. It'd be hard to antagonize them if Kubo made them as human as Nel. Hence, you get the bloodlust of a Grimmjow or Nori, the heartlessness of an Ulquiorra, and so on.

The thing is that given a bad guy i grey out look is good but i did not say all espada grimjaw had bloodlust yes but can way say he was evil in some actions yes but if he was truly evil woundn't he just kill him there and then.

darkband
June 21, 2008, 03:33 PM
@ Travis: I think the vizard probably know where they are, whichever that is, so they won't realize, they'll probably already know if they are in SS.

Anyway, for next chapter, I think we'll get Ichigo getting to Ulquiorra and Orihime as well as some smack talk between Aizen and Co. and the Captains. It's probably going to be a chapter to set things up, not much more.

cero_tenshou
June 21, 2008, 03:39 PM
the vaizards might go walk around, maybe to the walls of serietei and shinji might say to the others "so this is where it all began, huh." but i think this might possibly be a chapter with them basically beginning to reveal what they are planning to do. they do seem to be against aizen, because they say the are indebted. but that can mean payback. and we all know what payback means.

ShaunMati1
June 21, 2008, 04:33 PM
I dont think the vaizards are going to fight or walk around in SS or anything. I feel that they will try to find urahara. Why? well what better place to think of a plan. Urahara knew this was going to happen long ago (hense him trying to get orhime out of the plans). I belive the next chapter we will seethe vaizards finding urahara and telling him that it doesnt matter if he couldnt cure them cuz now they have embraced their powers. And urahara will understand and have that serious look on his face and say...come with me i have a plan. I hope that plan is to wait for Aizen and co in SS. Even tho it seems like bleach is coming to an end i dont think it is. I feel that the real enemy could very well be the kings real or even the 0 division. Its sorta like if they defeat aizen a new enemy comes forth. Like my favoirte quote from aizen "The betrayal u see is trivial...what is really fearsome is the betrayal u dont see"

hyn_pride93
June 21, 2008, 09:06 PM
I dont think that Bleach is going to end too. There's gotta be someone stronger. But i dont think that the villain would be the King or 0 division, but the Vasto Lords. we havent seen one yet. or know who is one. unless someone from Ichigo's side turns on them or is kidnapped, such as one of Ichigo's sisters or both of them. If the next villain ends up taking one of them then the story would be crazier because Ichigo wouldnt let anyone hurt his FRIENDS, but if something were to happen to his sisters, than he would unleash hell on anyone who defied him. and to add on, Isshin would surely join his son too.

Travis
June 21, 2008, 09:10 PM
@ Travis: I think the vizard probably know where they are, whichever that is, so they won't realize, they'll probably already know if they are in SS.

Anyway, for next chapter, I think we'll get Ichigo getting to Ulquiorra and Orihime as well as some smack talk between Aizen and Co. and the Captains. It's probably going to be a chapter to set things up, not much more.

I think so too, but I'm just thinking if the Vaizard are leaving right now, then we may not see the 1v1 fights we've all been hoping for the past 3 months. I'm just hoping it takes some time for them to get to Aizen I guess. But being in that town it can't be long. Look at how easy it was for Ichigo to find Grimmjaw when he invaded Karakura town both times.
[hr]

I dont think that Bleach is going to end too. There's gotta be someone stronger. But i dont think that the villain would be the King or 0 division, but the Vasto Lords. we havent seen one yet. or know who is one. unless someone from Ichigo's side turns on them or is kidnapped, such as one of Ichigo's sisters or both of them. If the next villain ends up taking one of them then the story would be crazier because Ichigo wouldnt let anyone hurt his FRIENDS, but if something were to happen to his sisters, than he would unleash hell on anyone who defied him. and to add on, Isshin would surely join his son too.
If you watch the anime, it kind of really hints at Grimmjaw being a Vastolorde, while his crew mostly being adjuchas and DeRoy being a Gillian along with the guy Matsumoto defeated. I'm talking about the flashbacks in the Grimmjaw and Ichigo fight.

hajialibaig
June 21, 2008, 09:59 PM
If you watch the anime, it kind of really hints at Grimmjaw being a Vastolorde, while his crew mostly being adjuchas and DeRoy being a Gillian along with the guy Matsumoto defeated. I'm talking about the flashbacks in the Grimmjaw and Ichigo fight.


Which anime you been watchin....

If anything, the anime compares Grimmjow's defeat by Ichigo to his failure of becoming a vastorlord, as he is seen to be walking alone after in the flash back in his adjucha form, even though he eats a fragment from everyone else. Thus, reconfirming the fact that he NEVER reached the next level

hyn_pride93
June 21, 2008, 10:06 PM
If you watch the anime, it kind of really hints at Grimmjaw being a Vastolorde, while his crew mostly being adjuchas and DeRoy being a Gillian along with the guy Matsumoto defeated. I'm talking about the flashbacks in the Grimmjaw and Ichigo fight.


actually, if Grimm really is a Vasto then that means that the Vastos arent mind blowing strong. but on top of that we dont really know for sure if Grimm became a vasto, because when Grimm was offered the chance to eat his comrads it cut off and went straight back to the fighting and we never got back to the flashback. but to top things off, the adjuchas that were with Grimm were still around when Grimm made his first appearance in KT and Hitsugaya's team got into the battles.

here's the link to that flashback---> http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/285/10/

and here's the flashback where they're talking about them not becoming vastos and that Grimm was meant to move forward. but the thing is that all of those adjuchas ended up staying alive and becoming arrancars. but here it is anyways -------> http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/285/08/

GothHearth
June 21, 2008, 11:10 PM
Revenge Is About To Start .... Bring It On ! xD

Uchiha-Itachi
June 22, 2008, 01:14 AM
The Vasta Lord is start from Ulquiorra to the 1st espada ( means rank1 - rank4 are the Vasta lord ), Noitora is the last espada that not in the lvl of Vasta lord, and the noob kid that Aizen last awaken, that was truly higher lvl than the vasta lord, i doubt that Ulquiorra
are the weakest Vasta lord, there are still some greater haven review ^^

Grimjaww
June 22, 2008, 01:46 AM
The Vasta Lord is start from Ulquiorra to the 1st espada ( means rank1 - rank4 are the Vasta lord ), Noitora is the last espada that not in the lvl of Vasta lord, and the noob kid that Aizen last awaken, that was truly higher lvl than the vasta lord, i doubt that Ulquiorra
are the weakest Vasta lord, there are still some greater haven review ^^

Just because they are in front of Nnoitora does not make them Vasto Lorde. I mean Yammy is a Adjucha and is 10 while Aoniero(yeah sorry dont know how to spell his name) is just a gilian but in front of an Adjucha. Aizen still does not have all the Vasto lorde, maybe only the top 2 espada or vasto lorde. He said this when he was talking to Gin after Tousen cut off Grimmjow's arm.

I have a feeling that Hirako will fight Aizen and die in order to show Ichigo how to beat him, or something retarded along those lines................... : /

Uchiha-Itachi
June 22, 2008, 01:52 AM
Yea maybe only the top rank 1 and 2 are Vasta Lord, like i said in the previous post, there are still some greater Vasta Lord haven review yet, not even the rank1 strongest Vasta Lord that kill Kenpachi appear, the story is still long way to go ^^

Grimjaww
June 22, 2008, 01:59 AM
Yea maybe only the top rank 1 and 2 are Vasta Lord, like i said in the previous post, there are still some greater Vasta Lord haven review yet, not even the rank1 strongest Vasta Lord that kill Kenpachi appear, the story is still long way to go ^^

Yeah I agree, there are still some hollows who have more pride than to side with a shinigami. Not too mention that big ass purple eye that looked down upon Soul Society as the menos used negacion to take away Aizen, Gin and Tousen. No one knows what that big ass purple eye is, maybe its the hollow king? Or Maybe just an Adjucha..........it could be another villain.

notBowen
June 22, 2008, 02:05 AM
Yeah I agree, there are still some hollows who have more pride than to side with a shinigami. Not too mention that big ass purple eye that looked down upon Soul Society as the menos used negacion to take away Aizen, Gin and Tousen. No one knows what that big ass purple eye is, maybe its the hollow king? Or Maybe just an Adjucha..........it could be another villain.
It could also be an artistic flourish that ultimately means absolutely nothing.

Bandreus
June 22, 2008, 02:57 AM
Well, I don't know if the remaining espada could be Vasto. They could easilly be more stronger adjucas, thus letting Aizen come out with some cool last minute quote like "Did you really thought that was all I got, you hopeless shinigami?" when he finally bring the vasto in. Just speculation.

Anyway, what I'm really looking forward to, is Aizen's, Jin's and Tousen's Vizard form, since you know it's going to happen.

Next chap will be more random characters talking, maybe hints on the King or something, Urahara setting up some plan, Ichi going to find Ori and the like

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 03:10 AM
Well, I don't know if the remaining espada could be Vasto. They could easilly be more stronger adjucas, thus letting Aizen come out with some cool last minute quote like "Did you really thought that was all I got, you hopeless shinigami?" when he finally bring the vasto in. Just speculation.

Anyway, what I'm really looking forward to, is Aizen's, Jin's and Tousen's Vizard form, since you know it's going to happen.

Next chap will be more random characters talking, maybe hints on the King or something, Urahara setting up some plan, Ichi going to find Ori and the like
I don't, actually... Aizen said that while the Vizard were Hollowizing, they were "failures." Apparently, the only success he's had are Arrancar. I dunno if he's even aware of Vizard transformations at this point.

dreamzsai
June 22, 2008, 03:17 AM
Everyone probably noticed, but all the Espadas that are below the rank of Ulquiora have some sort of a flaw in their personality despite being strong and suspected(by some people) to be VastoLorde Arrancars.

5th Noitora - Male Chauvinism, Desires to prove his strength, Takes advantage of any weakness of the enemy
6th Grimmjaw - Impulsive, violent, short temper, rude, sadistic, little respect for authority
Former 6th Luppi - Arrogant, likes to mock/insult
7th Zommari - Arrogant, thinks highly of himself
8th Szayel Aporro Granz - thinks highly of himself, sadistic
9th Aaroniero Arruruerie - Sly but his plans are rather dumb, thinks highly of his own abilities
10th Yammy - relies on brute strength, rather stupid

Compared to all this personalities, you can clearly see that the Top4 is much more composed overall, probably hinting that the Top4 are Vastolordes. You can also see the "composed" personality in Nell, who was a former No3, which might also mean she is actually a Vastolorde.

Seeing how Aizen is clearly outnumbered this time, the Top3 Espada might really be very powerful. At least we know that Kenpachi + Ichigo was unable to catch Stark, and he was able to reach back to Aizen rather quickly, Ichigo in Vizard form wasn't able to do much against Ulquiora in "hand mode", the Top3 might really be something...

Uchiha-Itachi
June 22, 2008, 03:20 AM
Aizen definitely know the transformation of Vizard, remember when Ichigo just went in to huego mundo and fought with the previous espada, they have all the information of Ichigo
fighting in hollow form in the real world with grimm, everything is under monitor by Aizen .

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 03:25 AM
Everyone probably noticed, but all the Espadas that are below the rank of Ulquiora have some sort of a flaw in their personality despite being strong and suspected(by some people) to be VastoLorde Arrancars.

5th Noitora - Male Chauvinism, Desires to prove his strength, Takes advantage of any weakness of the enemy
6th Grimmjaw - Impulsive, violent, short temper, rude, sadistic, little respect for authority
Former 6th Luppi - Arrogant, likes to mock/insult
7th Zommari - Arrogant, thinks highly of himself
8th Szayel Aporro Granz - thinks highly of himself, sadistic
9th Aaroniero Arruruerie - Sly but his plans are rather dumb, thinks highly of his own abilities
10th Yammy - relies on brute strength, rather stupid

Compared to all this personalities, you can clearly see that the Top4 is much more composed overall, probably hinting that the Top4 are Vastolordes. You can also see the "composed" personality in Nell, who was a former No3, which might also mean she is actually a Vastolorde.

Seeing how Aizen is clearly outnumbered this time, the Top3 Espada might really be very powerful. At least we know that Kenpachi + Ichigo was unable to catch Stark, and he was able to reach back to Aizen rather quickly, Ichigo in Vizard form wasn't able to do much against Ulquiora in "hand mode", the Top3 might really be something...
Well, Ichigo is just shit normally now without the Mask, and Kenpachi, beast that he may be, was horrifically wounded. Perhaps full-power post-recovery, one of them might be able to do the job. Ichigo will definitely beat Aizen, though.

No Quarter
June 22, 2008, 04:43 AM
I am a little surprised that nobody focused on the "My preparations were flawless and that was the only flaw" (alternative translation "I made no miscalculations and that was the first miscalculation") line which to me is the most interesting line in this chapter.

I really can't get my head around to what it might mean. Does it mean that Urahara screwed up? That he underestimated Aizen and now everybody is in a shit storm? Or does it mean that everything is going according to Urahara's plan and that the plan simply required for everything to turn exactly how they are now, in the worst possible scenario, for some reason yet to be revealed?

For me that was by far the most interesting moment of this chapter. The last panel was definitely badass but this line is potentially a huge plot twist. I mean if you interpret it as 'Urahara made some mistake and now Aizen has the upper hand' then it is simply a flavour-comment. If you interpret it as 'Everything is proceeding as Urahara expected' then you have to wonder what really is Urahara's plan and what is going on behind the scenes.

Anyone care to comment?

hardedge
June 22, 2008, 05:00 AM
Ever get the idea that the Vizards would actually side with Aizen?

No Quarter
June 22, 2008, 05:11 AM
Ever get the idea that the Vizards would actually side with Aizen?

Yeah, but I don't think it's very probable. It is a possibility though...

Sa-sori
June 22, 2008, 08:22 AM
Or all the Vaizards are going to die. You never do a good flashback unless a major character is going to die.

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 08:52 AM
I am a little surprised that nobody focused on the "My preparations were flawless and that was the only flaw" (alternative translation "I made no miscalculations and that was the first miscalculation") line which to me is the most interesting line in this chapter.

I really can't get my head around to what it might mean. Does it mean that Urahara screwed up? That he underestimated Aizen and now everybody is in a shit storm? Or does it mean that everything is going according to Urahara's plan and that the plan simply required for everything to turn exactly how they are now, in the worst possible scenario, for some reason yet to be revealed?

For me that was by far the most interesting moment of this chapter. The last panel was definitely badass but this line is potentially a huge plot twist. I mean if you interpret it as 'Urahara made some mistake and now Aizen has the upper hand' then it is simply a flavour-comment. If you interpret it as 'Everything is proceeding as Urahara expected' then you have to wonder what really is Urahara's plan and what is going on behind the scenes.

Anyone care to comment?
It's just a line meaning that thinking you're perfect is the sign of imperfection. It was said, way back when Ichigo and co. entered Hueco Mundo, that Aizen is a being with no fear, which is why the Arrancar follow him. He thinks he has everything figured out, and doesn't expect something to pop up. He doesn't expect a wildcard, which manifests as the Vizard team.
[hr]

Or all the Vaizards are going to die. You never do a good flashback unless a major character is going to die.
This wasn't a flashback, it was a gaiden. There is a difference.

Doombot
June 22, 2008, 10:30 AM
Anyone think that an Arrancar can still devour other Arrancars to grow strong? I mean Grimmjow is basically sitting there almost dead if Ken just leaves him with Noitora's body. I can see them giving Grimmjow a power-up because he is extremely popular.

No Quarter
June 22, 2008, 10:38 AM
It's just a line meaning that thinking you're perfect is the sign of imperfection. It was said, way back when Ichigo and co. entered Hueco Mundo, that Aizen is a being with no fear, which is why the Arrancar follow him. He thinks he has everything figured out, and doesn't expect something to pop up. He doesn't expect a wildcard, which manifests as the Vizard team.

Yes, but this line is said by Urahara for HIS plans, not for Aizens'. He doesn't say "Aizen thought his plans were perfect and that is his flaw" which would mean what you are suggesting. He talks (through Shinji) for his own plans. Did he somehow screw up? Or is everything going according to plan?

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 10:51 AM
Yes, but this line is said by Urahara for HIS plans, not for Aizens'. He doesn't say "Aizen thought his plans were perfect and that is his flaw" which would mean what you are suggesting. He talks (through Shinji) for his own plans. Did he somehow screw up? Or is everything going according to plan?
No, it's just a mirror between Aizen and Urahara, a juxtaposition, if you will. This is emphasized by Shinji saying that they're indebted to both of them in some way.

No Quarter
June 22, 2008, 11:17 AM
No, it's just a mirror between Aizen and Urahara, a juxtaposition, if you will. This is emphasized by Shinji saying that they're indebted to both of them in some way.

You see, Shinji actually says the exact words of Urahara. This is Urahara's assesment of the situation it is not Shinji's. True he does make the comparison between the two but that comes a bit later. In the context he says that line he is commenting, though Urahara's words, on the current situation. So I don't think what you are describing is the case. I don't think that Shinji offers some vague comment about the character of the two main players, although it can work that way too. But not given the context in which he says it.

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 11:25 AM
Urahara acknowledges that he didn't account for any possible miscalculations. His own arrogance betrayed him. Thus, this is mirrored by Aizen. That's the way it is.

No Quarter
June 22, 2008, 11:31 AM
Urahara acknowledges that he didn't account for any possible miscalculations. His own arrogance betrayed him. Thus, this is mirrored by Aizen. That's the way it is.

It seems Urahara and Aizen aren't the only ones overconfident around here. Take it easy dude.

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 11:33 AM
It seems Urahara and Aizen aren't the only ones overconfident around here. Take it easy dude.
Excuse me?

No Quarter
June 22, 2008, 11:57 AM
I was referring to the 'That's the way it is' comment. It's not like you or anyone here holds the title for knowing everything that will transpire in the series. As such your comment seems to me unreasonably overconfident. Your opinion is just an interpretation, as is mine, and is certainly not 'That the way it is'. Neither of us know what will happen. I am simply discussing opinions. Hence, the take it easy comment. That's all.

hajialibaig
June 22, 2008, 11:59 AM
Aizen needs to get a scratch on him, it's been too long...:S

No Quarter
June 22, 2008, 12:07 PM
I'm sorry. How exactly did I misinterpret your words? Because "That's the way it is" in a discussion seems to me pretty clear in its meaning. However if I did misinterpret your words then by all means explain to me what you meant and I'll be more than happy to apologize for my comment which was totally justifiable given my understanding of your sentence.

And 'paranoid'? Really? Don't get so worked up man... I just said take it easy ffs...

llamapie
June 22, 2008, 12:31 PM
Aizen needs to get a scratch on him, it's been too long...:S

No kidding but everything we've seen of him demonstrates he is much more powerful than he lets on. He one hit a captain with a incantation-less kido. Made grim bend under his pressure and so on.

No Quarter
June 22, 2008, 12:56 PM
The thing is, if Aizen is THAT powerfull that can defeat any captain already, assuming he is not a vaizard, why the hell does he need to become a hybrid in the first place? Unless of course the Royal Guard are THAT badass!

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 01:04 PM
The thing is, if Aizen is THAT powerfull that can defeat any captain already, assuming he is not a vaizard, why the hell does he need to become a hybrid in the first place? Unless of course the Royal Guard are THAT badass!
As much as I can guess, Aizen said he wants to "Go higher." Could be in power.

Uchiha-Itachi
June 22, 2008, 01:08 PM
Hmm, the story is still long way to go, there are still missing and stronger Vastalord haven appear yet, i am thinking that rank4 to rank1 ( start from Ulquiorra ) is the Vastalord between the espada.

Koen
June 22, 2008, 01:09 PM
As much as I can guess, Aizen said he wants to "Go higher." Could be in power.

Well I think Aizen wants to get on the highest place: the kings place. Imo espada are just a powerfull army that he created to fight on equal terms against SS for succeeding in his plans (he prolly had back then - referring to current chapters)

ShaunMati1
June 22, 2008, 01:11 PM
I would rather not talk about how Aizen is the strongest. I mean Ichigo already at his level still hasnt controlled his hollow completely and hasnt learned his bankai to the fullest. Not only that but we dont know exactly how strong the vizards are. Seeing Shinji fight for 2 min didnt do it for me. If in fact they also have shinigami powers...which it looks like they do then we are in for a very interesting battle.

I think we are also making to much of the comment shinji quoted from urahara...the "there were no miscalculations and that was my only flaw" all that means is his only mistake was perfecting all his calculations to the point and still not finding a cure for the vizards. That shouldnt tell u that urahara was arrogant and screwed up. That should tell u that once ur a vizard u cant get back to normal...well unless ur in uraharas gigai. But im sure he wanted to take out the hollow is all. Cant wait for the next chapter!!!

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 01:14 PM
I would rather not talk about how Aizen is the strongest. I mean Ichigo already at his level still hasnt controlled his hollow completely and hasnt learned his bankai to the fullest. Not only that but we dont know exactly how strong the vizards are. Seeing Shinji fight for 2 min didnt do it for me. If in fact they also have shinigami powers...which it looks like they do then we are in for a very interesting battle.

I think we are also making to much of the comment shinji quoted from urahara...the "there were no miscalculations and that was my only flaw" all that means is his only mistake was perfecting all his calculations to the point and still not finding a cure for the vizards. That shouldnt tell u that urahara was arrogant and screwed up. That should tell u that once ur a vizard u cant get back to normal...well unless ur in uraharas gigai. But im sure he wanted to take out the hollow is all. Cant wait for the next chapter!!!
Shinji minus shikai/bankai, just mask, able to kick Grimmjow's ass? 'S a good indicator for me.

Koen
June 22, 2008, 01:14 PM
Atm aizen IS still stronger than Ichigo. Saying his vaizard mode would help him is certainly true. It made ichigo stronger compared to his last confrontation with aizen. But don't forget aizen had no difficulties in fighting against histugaya, ichigo, renji and others. Reason: his strong zanpakto. If you say ichigo has the potential to beat aizen then I agree: he also hands a moon sword (like azien - the getsu sword). So ichigo might learn a lot from zangetsu

Uchiha-Itachi
June 22, 2008, 01:17 PM
For Ichigo now, it's hopeless for him to beat Aizen with the lvl 2 release of zanpaku.
He need at least the lvl 3 release of zanpaku only can stand a chance with Aizen .

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 01:18 PM
For Ichigo now, it's hopeless for him to beat Aizen with the lvl 2 release of zanpaku.
He need at least the lvl 3 release of zanpaku only can stand a chance with Aizen .
There is no such thing as a level three release of a zanpakutou. Bankai is the highest level. It means "final release."

VaizardNL
June 22, 2008, 01:21 PM
I think its about time for ichigo to learn kidou :) Who knows, maybe he is really capable of casting strong kidou attacks due to his high spirit pressure. Maybe Zangetsu can teach him :]

Are we absolutely sure that this is ichigo's bankai btw and not just his first release? I know there have been a lot of discussions about it but imo it would still make sense, because ichigo is always in the "first release?!" state... (In the fight against his hollow, they both said bankai, but what if his hollow counterpart also doesn't know any better?!)

Because when ichigo first became a shinigami.. which weapon was he carying? Still the same which he got from rukia? or the release he is in now normally?

Maybe i'm not making any sense, just saying whats in my mind

Uchiha-Itachi
June 22, 2008, 01:24 PM
Hmm, how should i explain to you, the higest lvl of release in zanpaku is lvl 4 release
( the final kai of the sword ) Shikai - Bankai - lvl3 kai - lvl4 kai , the story is still long way to go.

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 01:28 PM
Hmm, how should i explain to you, the higest lvl of release in zanpaku is lvl 4 release
( the final kai of the sword ) Shikai - Bankai - lvl3 kai - lvl4 kai , the story is still long way to go.
This is fanfiction. There's no such thing. "Bankai" means "Final Release."

Koen
June 22, 2008, 01:29 PM
Hmm, how should i explain to you, the higest lvl of release in zanpaku is lvl 4 release
( the final kai of the sword ) Shikai - Bankai - lvl3 kai - lvl4 kai , the story is still long way to go.

Sorry but you're wrong: bankai is the final stage as we know

unless kubo comes up with extraordinary people who can do another release greater than bankai - reason: royal guard squad

but then again: bankai is the final stage as we know

gold349
June 22, 2008, 01:32 PM
Yeah, but I don't think it's very probable. It is a possibility though...


IMHO I don't even see that as a remote possibility, if Urahara hadn't stepped in when he did, the failed experiment which Aizen labeled them would be dead, Aizen wouldn't have left any alive, Aizen is one callas/cold blooded person. Just as he killed Hinamori in cold blood, thinking he was doing right by her would have killed all the Vaizard to be.

Re reading the last chapter just from how shinji says his lines and knowing the history, he got Ichigo ready, helped him to be able to fight arrancar, espada and Aizen shows what side they are on. They have probably trained, planned and waited for this moment ever since Urahara whisked them away from SS in gigai's, a lot of pay back is on its way.

I just can not wait to see the faces and reactions of SS captains, although SS might know of their existence now. Urahara, Yourichi and Tessai must have come out in to the open and as SS who has asked for help, they may have been informed already of what has happened and what they have been doing the last hundred years, this may be one of the reasons that the Vaizard still in their warehouse are awake and headed to the scene of battle.

Uchiha-Itachi
June 22, 2008, 01:36 PM
For Ichigo Bankai + hollow form Getsuga Tenshou hit against Ulquiorra with full strength
and resulting Ulquiorra with unhurt, how long this bankai and hollow form can last for Ichigo?
Even he can learn some new skill in the hollow form, it's still not enough strength to beat Aizen, i don't think Kubo will make a main Character and the same skill as always and end the story of it, what i read is not 100% fanfiction, at least things about the Vaizard are going according what i read in the previous before the manga release, nothing is impossible, don't be so sure for it ^^

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 01:38 PM
For Ichigo Bankai + hollow form Getsuga Tenshou hit against Ulquiorra with full strength
and resulting Ulquiorra with unhurt, how long this bankai and hollow form can last for Ichigo?
Even he can learn some new skill in the hollow form, it's still not enough strength to beat Aizen, i don't think Kubo will make a main Character and the same skill as always and end the story of it, what i read is not 100% fanfiction, at least things about the Vaizard are going according what i read in the previous before the manga release, nothing is impossible, don't be so sure for it ^^
There is no third and fourth release. I don't know where you got this information, but it's wrong.

No Quarter
June 22, 2008, 02:09 PM
There is no official third or fourth release. There are 4 states though that a vizard can go through and these are:
Unreleased
Shikai (Primary Release)
Bankai (Final Release)
Hollow mode

But there has never been any official source stating or even hinting at more than 2 releases for a Shinigami Zanpaktou.

Sa-sori
June 22, 2008, 02:34 PM
Flashbacks are something that happened in the past no matter how long they are. When I remember something its not a gaiden its a flashback.

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 02:50 PM
Flashbacks are something that happened in the past no matter how long they are. When I remember something its not a gaiden its a flashback.
Whenever there's a flashback in the sense you're describing, the space outside the panels is black. For the Gaiden, that wasn't true until the end.

someguy0830
June 22, 2008, 02:58 PM
Flashbacks are something that happened in the past no matter how long they are. When I remember something its not a gaiden its a flashback.No, a flashback is someone remembering past events. No one is "remembering" this gaiden. It is a current event from a storytelling standpoint, and a past event in terms of the larger continuity.

ShaunMati1
June 22, 2008, 02:59 PM
Shinji minus shikai/bankai, just mask, able to kick Grimmjow's ass? 'S a good indicator for me.

Ya but grimmjow wasnt released so i wouldnt put that much on it. And it seems like espada 1-4 is a huge power gap from the rest so maybe grimmjow isnt all that strong since Nnoitora seems much more powerful.

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 03:07 PM
Ya but grimmjow wasnt released so i wouldnt put that much on it. And it seems like espada 1-4 is a huge power gap from the rest so maybe grimmjow isnt all that strong since Nnoitora seems much more powerful.
Shinji wasn't even trying, though. That's the thing for me.

BigCamaro
June 22, 2008, 03:24 PM
Going back to fake KT, I also wonder how strong the top 3 Espadas are. Ok, #5 took a toll on Kenpachi himself and had a huge difference from #6, so they are going to have a really hard time, even having them outnumbered(consider lieutenant level's power negligible). And at last we'll see "the captain with the hat and beard"(don't remember name) fight again. He rocks.

If #5 was that strong now, how will Ichigo manage beat #4? This Saiyan thing where if you get close to death and healed become more powerful has been overused. My guess is another talk with his sword maybe, combined with his hollow form and bankai.Ulqiorra on the other hand didn't even get his sword, so I wonder how powerful he will be in released form.Ichigo will have to greatly surpass himself, and I hope that outburst of power will be explained reasonably. Nice link btw of the page with Ulqiorra saying Ichigo's reiatsu is greater than his at times. Very helpful.

Was there really that big a difference in power between Grimmjow and #5??? That bastard just attacked him after the fight when he was at his lowest. Hollow Ichigo at full power without injuries could've taken him. Notoira was just a cheapskate like how he beat Neliel.

And Grimmjow wouldn't have been scared of him. He wasn't scared to take on Urquiolla so why would he fear #5. I think the difference between 4 and 5 is alot greater than between 5 and 6. But thats because I think Notoira was just borderline Vasto lorde but still an adjuca, whereas Urq is a full fledged Vasto lorde, and now we'll see his full power.

And Ichigo will have a shot at Urq. The longer he stays in Hueco Mundo the longer his time limit on Hollow form is extended due to the increased spiritrons and his hollow form being home, like with Chad's powers.

cero_tenshou
June 22, 2008, 03:34 PM
i think that kubo just made grimmjow such an easy prey for shinji, and tousen, so that we can see just how strong the captains really are. they want to show that after all the apparent uberness of ichigo when fighting in ss, that he isn't "worlds" above the captain, and that he is infact inferior in some ways. in this way, the power gap between ichigo and aizen in ss doesn't make it appear as though aizen is worlds above all of ss, and shows that ichigo has a lot more work to do than what was previously apparent. even with vaizard powers, i believe that shinji is on par with shunsui and ukitake at best. now bankai is seen as the best chance a shinigami has at beating someone. in other words, it gives a massive power boost that cannot be matched by any other boost. but persons have to examine the fact that if the bankai is not compatible with the opponent's fighting abilities, then it will have little use in a fight. for instance, ichigo's bankai may give him 5 times as much power, but this power translates to speed. now if his opponent's speed surpasses his even in bankai, then this alone would make little difference in the outcome of the battle, especially if this opponents has strong hand to hand combat skills. in this case, his vaizard powers would be more useful to him, since this improves all of his basic abilities, so he would be able to cut more easily. now a shinigami fighting an arrancar with an extremely strong hierro would benefit from having a power based zan with a bankai that would increase cutting power. basically, if the power that is received from a bankai is not fitting to overcome the ability of the opponent, then it would have little value.so there's nothing to say that shinji's bankai would have made any great difference in defeating grimmjow, as opposed to using his mask. and besides, reiatsu is basically fixed for a captain level shinigami (permanently high) while an inexperienced bankai user (ichigo, ikkaku and renji) experiences an increase in reiatsu when using bankai. that being said, shinji's cero used on grimmjow may have been just as effective as a bankai, in the same way that a hadou 90 may be, for some shinigami more powerful than the most powerful attack that their bankai is capable of producing.

No Quarter
June 22, 2008, 04:19 PM
Look, Ichigo's Bankai is actually one of the best BanKai we've seen. At least in theory. The problem is that because the story requires for the main character to struggle, his Bankai post SS arc has been completely nerfed. Theoretically at Bankai Ichigo should be way faster than everyone else. I mean he deflected millions of blades coming from all directions simultaneously and in post SS he is slower than the unreleased #6? Come on. What does that mean for the other captains? By that analogy, all other captains should be moving in turtle speed comparing to the arrancars... But that is not the case as demonstrated by Byakuya and the theoretically fastest Espada...

So my point is simply that what we think we know as far as power levels go doesn't really matter, because the author can downplay or exaggerate any power to suit the needs of the story he is telling.

BigCamaro
June 22, 2008, 04:34 PM
i think that kubo just made grimmjow such an easy prey for shinji, and tousen, so that we can see just how strong the captains really are. they want to show that after all the apparent uberness of ichigo when fighting in ss, that he isn't "worlds" above the captain, and that he is infact inferior in some ways.

Grimmjow had one arm against Shinji. Not that Vaizard Shinji can't beat him at full power but he got owned after getting his ass kicked in 1 fight for half the fight, and only having one arm. And Tousen, Gin, and Aizen obviously have some power over the Arrancar. Or some power they didnt reveal in SS. IE the Tousen that got his ass handed to him by Kenpachi aint the same level as the one thats in HM. They must be infused with hollow/hyougoku'd out themselves or something. I wonder if that mask on Tousen's face in Turn the Pendulum back was just his default look back then?

Tsukisama
June 22, 2008, 05:02 PM
I enjoyed this chapter very much (and not just because it signaled the end of the gaiden). It was completely awesome to see Central 46 in action. I always had imagined what they were like, and this just confirms it. Yoruichi is amazing. This chapter confirms that Urahara is not behind her cat transformation, but it is truly her own thing. The ending of it with Shinji and the other vizards was also impressive, making a nice transition ot the battles that lie ahead.


I'm pretty sure that that guy is Barragan. It has to be. and that gives some sort of foresight for the battles to come

I am amused at how whenever Kubo draws an old man with a mustache discussion starts on this board about how that old man looks like another old man character and how they are likely related because of it. Although I am sure that this will be brought up again the next geriatric Kubo draws, Kubo tends to draw his elderly men with mustaches rather similarly, and you will probably find similarities to at least one other character in the series if you look hard enough.


I don't think the Vaizard would/could go up against SS they will most likely stick to the side of Urahara and support who ever Urahara is supporting in this case its SS.

I would disagree. Although I think that they feel gratitude to Urahara, I would not consider them as feeling aligned especially with him. Given his perceived tone in his conversation with Isshin after Grand Fisher's defeat, I don't think that Urahara and the vizards are necessarily together now.

From Urahara's last statements in this chapter, stating that he will devote his time to ridding them of the effects of hollowfication, I would think that a rift may have formed between him and the vizards. The vizards seem rather comfortable with their powers at this point and accepting of them. Perhaps some time after 100 years ago, the vizards began acknowledging their hollow powers, and Urahara, still not wanting to get rid of them, did not necessarily agree with their new attitude towards their powers.

It is still possible that the vizards may not be on the same side as Urahara in the coming days (and Urahara seems to be on the side of SS).


You know, something about this chapter is bothering me.

We pretty much guessed, of course, that Central 46 would respond this way. But why didnt't Urahara just tell them to hear Shinji out? Aizen described his entire plan to him before he collapsed. I don't see why they couldn't have postponed the trial to hear an eyewitness account--and the scene would've been much more convincing had they struck down Hirako's testimony as ridiculous.

Just a thought.

Like others said, Central 46 viewed Hirako and the others as hollows, and I doubt the testimony of hollows holds much weight in shinigami court. Also, as Urahara was believed to have experimented on the 8 vizards, the validity of their statements would be called into question, as Urahara could have tampered with their memories as well. Thirdly, Shinji and the others were probably not in any condition to give a full account. When Shinji last tried speaking to Urahara, he was already having trouble forming sentences (and this was with his mask half-formed).


Ok, let me throw in my ideas.

Old Man Yammamoto is not the type of guy, to think and exhaust all possible outcomes of a situation. He see's one very possible conclusion and there is evidence to support that scenario he's going to follow it. We've seen him do it here and he's done it again in the bleach movie. So him listening to Kisuke and hearing out his side of the story isn't in his character.

Secondly, I dont think the Vizards are going to hold a grudge against SS. Let's think about it, Kisuke helps them gain control of there hollow powers and are left to do what they want. They are indebted to Kisuke and follow him and what he believes. If anything, if Kisuke wanted to go against SS he could but why would he? It's apparent that Yammamoto came to him and asked for his help when constructing the senkei gate to HM for the captains. So I can assume that he would say, "Yo, my bad on that whole aizen thing...we cool?" So you should expect the vizards to help SS in what I can only anticipate as the most epic of epic battles we have ever seen.

Why are people so hateful towards Yamamoto? It seems like every available opportunity to speak ill of him is taken, even when he is not involved like in this situation. Yamamoto did not sentence the vizards; Central 46 did. Yamamoto is not a member of Central 46; so, don't blame him for this.


I think tessai was trying to kill ichigo at that time because he was turning into a hollow....and tessai used the incantation where as hacchi did not...which essential means tessai's kido was stronger....

Tessai did not use an incantation.


Oh and how in the world did Yoruichi know about the incident? Dammm, she must be one sneaky person!

I think Yoruichi knew about the charges, because the correctional force is under her jurisdiction. Nothing especially sneaky about it.


The thing is that given a bad guy i grey out look is good but i did not say all espada grimjaw had bloodlust yes but can way say he was evil in some actions yes but if he was truly evil woundn't he just kill him there and then.

Debating the morality of hollows and shinigami would be an interesting discussion in Biblioteca ;), but I don't think that you are really making a convincing arument here. Saying that Grimmjow is not truly evil because he didn't kill Ichigo when he had a clear advantage assumes that there is some sort of set standards for being evil when there are not. Morality is subjective, and the concept of evil is not clearly defined.

If anything, I would say that morality is a theme of Bleach. Many of the characters and situations like SS's special detention or Grimmjow's actions have made the reader call into question what should be defined as "good" or "evil." There have even been characters like Zommari and Neliel to explicitly call into question issues of morality in the Bleach universe.

Forcing readers to examine what is "good" or "evil" is one of the things I have thoroughly enjoyed about Kubo's style thus far, and thus I would advise you not to get so hung up on trying to place labels but to rather look at the whole picture and accept it as gestalt.


Anyone think that an Arrancar can still devour other Arrancars to grow strong? I mean Grimmjow is basically sitting there almost dead if Ken just leaves him with Noitora's body. I can see them giving Grimmjow a power-up because he is extremely popular.

Arrancar can eat other arrancar. This was demonstrated by Szayel devouring his Fraccion for refreshment. So, presumably arrancar could eat powerful arrancar as well.


It's just a line meaning that thinking you're perfect is the sign of imperfection. It was said, way back when Ichigo and co. entered Hueco Mundo, that Aizen is a being with no fear, which is why the Arrancar follow him. He thinks he has everything figured out, and doesn't expect something to pop up. He doesn't expect a wildcard, which manifests as the Vizard team.

Nice interpretation. When I first read that line, I was slightly wondering what exactly he meant, but your analysis makes much sense and I agree with it. It also reminds me of Mayuri's comments at the end of his battle with Szayel about how perfection has no value for a scientist. It really all comes together.

cero_tenshou
June 22, 2008, 05:20 PM
Look, Ichigo's Bankai is actually one of the best BanKai we've seen. At least in theory. The problem is that because the story requires for the main character to struggle, his Bankai post SS arc has been completely nerfed. Theoretically at Bankai Ichigo should be way faster than everyone else. I mean he deflected millions of blades coming from all directions simultaneously and in post SS he is slower than the unreleased #6? Come on. What does that mean for the other captains? By that analogy, all other captains should be moving in turtle speed comparing to the arrancars... But that is not the case as demonstrated by Byakuya and the theoretically fastest Espada...

So my point is simply that what we think we know as far as power levels go doesn't really matter, because the author can downplay or exaggerate any power to suit the needs of the story he is telling.

i agree with you when you say that ichigo's bankai is very good. but i think that at a base level, ichigo's bankai gives him mainly speed. maybe as he really takes the time to master his bankai, then the rest of his 5x power-up will come. i think that 5x power thing was exaggerated, because i have a hard time believing that ichigo could be 5x more powerful, only to barely defeat byakuya. as such, i believe 1 of 2 things is possible:

the first is that the 5x power gained comes with complete mastery of bankai; in other words, when a shinigami hits the wall in zanjutsu. but in addition to that, their shikai gets more powerful, making bankai more powerful automatically. this is where there senior captains are at, including aizen, and that mastery is what ichigo lacks and what the other captains have over him. as a result, other captains would be able to handle opponents that ichigo could not defeat (kenpachi vs noitra as an assumption, shinji vs grimmjow), while they may not necessarily be able to defeat ichigo himself. that is what makes the difference between a captain and a bankai user.

the second possibility is that the 5x power-up gained by bankai was just a plothole to boost the idea of bankai in the minds of the readers. the reason i say this is because, as i said above, ichigo defeating kenpachi in shikai and then gaining bankai only to barely defeat byakuya would indicate an extremely large power gap even between normal captains. and of course because kenpachi then went on to fight 2 captains at once with his eyepatch on, and defeating tousen. tousen then goes on to easily cutting off grimmjow's arm, and for those who say that grimmjow was caught off-guard, i will say that from my recollection, there is nothing to say that being on your guard strengthens hierro, or makes it more difficult to cut an arrancar.

anyway, my point is that bankai is either a bit overrated, or the power stated by yoroichi comes over time. so shinji defeating grimmjow may have different factors affecting that outcome: grimmjow's arm, injury sustained from ichigo and probably rukia, as well as how much reiatsu shinji was really pumping out. now the last one came from my observation that captains who are experienced with bankai do not show any reiatsu increase when releasing shikai or bankai. in other words, they ultimately have control over all of their reiatsu and can bring it out in battle at any point, while inexperienced bankai users like ichigo and renji only have access to all of their reiatsu when they release bankai. if anyone has any instance when the reiatsu of a captain actually increases in bankai, then post and inform. some persons might say hitsugaya when he went bankai on aizen, but i think that just had to do with his zan's ability, which is ice, so his bankai basically was more like frost or cold rushing wind than reiatsu. and neither byakuya, mayuri, aizen, unohana, shunsui, ukitake, urahara, soi fon, komamura, yama nor tousen showed any increase in reiatsu from the actual release of shikai or bankai (from those we have seen). to me, yama's shikai applies to what i said about zan ability. it wasn't reiatsu that was released when he went shikai. it was basically fire. that's in the same way as hitsugaya releasing cold air or frost when he releases bankai. any increases in the reiatsu of these captains are before they show signs of releasing. correct me if i'm wrong, and make sure that you explain why i'm wrong so that i can see where you're coming from.

Very nice analysis, but any further discussion on this needs to go to Biblioteca

bladehappy
June 22, 2008, 05:32 PM
I would disagree. Although I think that they feel gratitude to Urahara, I would not consider them as feeling aligned especially with him. Given his perceived tone in his conversation with Isshin after Grand Fisher's defeat, I don't think that Urahara and the vizards are necessarily together now.

From Urahara's last statements in this chapter, stating that he will devote his time to ridding them of the effects of hollowfication, I would think that a rift may have formed between him and the vizards. The vizards seem rather comfortable with their powers at this point and accepting of them. Perhaps some time after 100 years ago, the vizards began acknowledging their hollow powers, and Urahara, still not wanting to get rid of them, did not necessarily agree with their new attitude towards their powers.

It is still possible that the vizards may not be on the same side as Urahara in the coming days (and Urahara seems to be on the side of SS).


I actually disagree with this, somewhat. I agree that the Vaizards probably acknowledged their powers and used it to their advantage, but I disagree with Urahara's reaction to this. He might of been against it at first, but he probably realized that it was impossible, or close to impossible to reverse the effects. If he had been angry at their decision, I don't think he would have attempted Ichigo's Shinigami Transformation, since he seemed completely aware of what was going to happen when Ichigo became a Shinigami.

This is just speculation, though.

lordHokage
June 22, 2008, 05:50 PM
You know, something about this chapter is bothering me.

We pretty much guessed, of course, that Central 46 would respond this way. But why didnt't Urahara just tell them to hear Shinji out? Aizen described his entire plan to him before he collapsed. I don't see why they couldn't have postponed the trial to hear an eyewitness account--and the scene would've been much more convincing had they struck down Hirako's testimony as ridiculous.

Just a thought.


I agree. This chapter was confusing to me too. Central 46 believed lieutenant Aizen's report over Captain Urahara, it seems to be that their ideals are corrupt. :blink

Tsukisama
June 22, 2008, 05:56 PM
I agree. This chapter was confusing to me too. Central 46 believed lieutenant Aizen's report over Captain Urahara, it seems to be that their ideals are corrupt. :blink

Central 46 did not just have Aizen's statements. Aizen has an alibi confirmed by 124 shinigami and a captain (Kyouraku). Plus, Urahara has been researching hollowfication, was there at the scene of the crime, was wearing a reiatsu-masking cloak, and was with Tessai when he cast two powerful, illegal spells. Any jury would have convicted him faced with this evidence.
[hr]

I actually disagree with this, somewhat. I agree that the Vaizards probably acknowledged their powers and used it to their advantage, but I disagree with Urahara's reaction to this. He might of been against it at first, but he probably realized that it was impossible, or close to impossible to reverse the effects. If he had been angry at their decision, I don't think he would have attempted Ichigo's Shinigami Transformation, since he seemed completely aware of what was going to happen when Ichigo became a Shinigami.

This is just speculation, though.

That's fine to disagree with it, as I was only proposing a possible scenario in which the vizards would not side with Urahara. I also don't think that Urahara would be angry at them if the situation I described was correct, but it still might lead them to distance themselves from each other.

ShaunMati1
June 22, 2008, 06:03 PM
Shinji wasn't even trying, though. That's the thing for me.

That is also true....i stand corrected. What i wanna know is just because Shinji seems to be the head honcho for the vizards does that mean hes stronger then lets say Love or Kensei or are they just equal?

Tsukisama
June 22, 2008, 06:05 PM
That is also true....i stand corrected. What i wanna know is just because Shinji seems to be the head honcho for the vizards does that mean hes stronger then lets say Love or Kensei or are they just equal?

They could be of equal or perhaps even greater power than Shinji, but as he seems to be the leader and the one who gets the most focus, Shinji is most likely the strongest or at least best (in all-around sense) of the group.

lordHokage
June 22, 2008, 06:55 PM
Central 46 did not just have Aizen's statements. Aizen has an alibi confirmed by 124 shinigami and a captain (Kyouraku). Plus, Urahara has been researching hollowfication, was there at the scene of the crime, was wearing a reiatsu-masking cloak, and was with Tessai when he cast two powerful, illegal spells. Any jury would have convicted him faced with this evidence.


If they were secretly investigating Urahara, why Aizen, Gin and Tousen names were never mentioned their reports. :p

cero_tenshou
June 22, 2008, 07:30 PM
Central 46 believed lieutenant Aizen's report over Captain Urahara, it seems to be that their ideals are corrupt. :blink

central 46 works with the evidence they have. this evidence is:
1. urahara has been caught with hollowified captains and vice-captains.

2. tessai has used a forbidden technique to transport them to the 12th division.

3. kyoraku and over 100 other shinigami claimed to have seen aizen on that night, so as far as most shinigami know, aizen never left.

4. because of evidence #3, urahara helping the group seems like a bad excuse for being out there, especially since he most likely hasn't really found out or can explain aizen's shikai ability.

5. aizen was at one time higher in rank than urahara, and may have been a shinigami for a longer time, so he may be as well respected as, or better respected than urahara.

Tsukisama
June 22, 2008, 07:44 PM
If they were secretly investigating Urahara, why Aizen, Gin and Tousen names were never mentioned their reports. :p

I don't understand your response. :confused You were saying that Central 46 was corrupt for believing Aizen's report over Urahara. You are correct that in your second statement that Central 46 never explicitly stated that Aizen gave statements against Urahara, but I don't see where you were going with this. What do the names of Aizen, Gin, and Tousen have to do with anything?

I am sure Tousen had to have some sort of input in the investigation, since he was in Kensei's group that was attacked, but Gin would have no logical connection to the crime and would not have been suspected. If Gin's name were to come up though, I would imagine Aizen might have prepared for the event and made an illusory doppleganger of him as well.

cero_tenshou
June 22, 2008, 07:54 PM
aizen may have set it up so that they interrogate him as well. since his captain was among those involved, he would have most likely been suspected of shady actions. however, he would have made a case for himself by saynig that they could ask shunsui for themselves, which they might have done. and they get the answer that aizen didnt leave, and over 100 shinigami also supported this.

BigCamaro
June 22, 2008, 08:38 PM
aizen may have set it up so that they interrogate him as well. since his captain was among those involved, he would have most likely been suspected of shady actions. however, he would have made a case for himself by saynig that they could ask shunsui for themselves, which they might have done. and they get the answer that aizen didnt leave, and over 100 shinigami also supported this.

He could have had his fake interrogated as well

pirateninjahunter
June 22, 2008, 08:50 PM
I feel that there is someone giving aizen orders. Do you remember momo saying that and immediately being interrupted by Yamamoto? she was talking to hitsugaya. They might want to get the king.

I thought the vaizards would be strong, but apparently Touzen is stronger than what I thought since he beat them all up. I thought he lost to kenpachi but apparently he lost on purpose.

@ ichigo's father: he is powerful!!! He comes from division Zero imo.

I dont see where bleach can go after this arc. I would only think about a hell arc.

Hockeychaoz
June 22, 2008, 09:23 PM
I thought the vaizards would be strong, but apparently Touzen is stronger than what I thought since he beat them all up. I thought he lost to kenpachi but apparently he lost on purpose.


Tousen got a sneak attack in with his bankai. That's all.

And theres no way in hell Tousen lost on purpose to Zaraki. Zaraki was about to kill Tousen when Komamaru stepped in. Theres no way of him knowing Komamaru was going to save him, therefore, it wouldn't make sense that Tousen wanted to die. Unless he has a death wish.

Tsukisama
June 22, 2008, 09:26 PM
I feel that there is someone giving aizen orders. Do you remember momo saying that and immediately being interrupted by Yamamoto? she was talking to hitsugaya. They might want to get the king.

I thought the vaizards would be strong, but apparently Touzen is stronger than what I thought since he beat them all up. I thought he lost to kenpachi but apparently he lost on purpose.

@ ichigo's father: he is powerful!!! He comes from division Zero imo.

I dont see where bleach can go after this arc. I would only think about a hell arc.

Do you have a reference to this conversation with Momo and Yamamoto? I don't recall the two of them ever being in the same room in the manga.

The vizards are now more powerful than they were back then with their hollow powers. Also, Tousen launching a sneak attack and stripping them of their senses for a quick attack doesn't really signal him being that much stronger IMO. He might be, or he might not.

Bleach is more than likely going to go into the King's dimension. Hell has not really been made to seem as though it has any plot potential other than being a plane of existence we don't know much about, but it is not impossible for an arc there.

someguy0830
June 22, 2008, 10:17 PM
Do you have a reference to this conversation with Momo and Yamamoto? I don't recall the two of them ever being in the same room in the manga.He's talking about that conversation she has with Toshiro. She starts going all fangirl about how Aizen can't be bad and Yama shuts her up with some quick kido in the face. However, that scene seemed more like him shutting up the crazy lady, not anything shady.

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 10:53 PM
I feel that there is someone giving aizen orders. Do you remember momo saying that and immediately being interrupted by Yamamoto? she was talking to hitsugaya. They might want to get the king.

I thought the vaizards would be strong, but apparently Touzen is stronger than what I thought since he beat them all up. I thought he lost to kenpachi but apparently he lost on purpose.

@ ichigo's father: he is powerful!!! He comes from division Zero imo.

I dont see where bleach can go after this arc. I would only think about a hell arc.
Well, there's a theory, going by his uniform when he attacks Grand Fisher. He wears a badge and a sort of... shroud/cloak looking thing from it.

Badge = Lieutenant
Cloak = Captain
Badge and Cloak = Zero Division/Royal Guard (?)

It's a possibility.

iorinyc
June 22, 2008, 11:03 PM
Isshin does not wear a cloak. Btw Tousen didn't lose to Zaraki on purpose. It just mean that Vizards before gaining their powers, SUCKED. They weren't that strong.

Since we are assuming that Zero division is stronger then regular captains due to the "promotion", we have to take this into account why Yamamoto is still a captain along with Unohana and Kyoraku and Ukitake? Is this PROMOTION based on strength or something else?

Uchiha-Itachi
June 22, 2008, 11:06 PM
Yup, it's possible Ichigo's father is 1 of the Royal Guard, in the whole SS with all the shinigami, only the King zanpaku is always on the release form of Shikai, so Ichigo's father being a Royal Guard possibility is very high .

Jehuty
June 22, 2008, 11:54 PM
Isshin does not wear a cloak. Btw Tousen didn't lose to Zaraki on purpose. It just mean that Vizards before gaining their powers, SUCKED. They weren't that strong.

Since we are assuming that Zero division is stronger then regular captains due to the "promotion", we have to take this into account why Yamamoto is still a captain along with Unohana and Kyoraku and Ukitake? Is this PROMOTION based on strength or something else?
Notice I said shroud.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/186/18-19/

That's definitely a captain-haori pattern.

bladehappy
June 23, 2008, 12:25 AM
I was reading through the chapters when Isshin first reveals himself as a soul reaper.

From his conversation with Urahara, I've realized a couple of things.

I think Urahara gave him one of his gigais, like the one he gave to Rukia. Since Urahara made a crack at being blamed for making Isshin weaker. Isshin didn't 'lose' his powers, more like gave them up. Probably for Masaki. It is also possible that Isshin was tailing the Vaizard, . Since he stated that 'we' never found their [Vaizard] base of operations, or their motives, etc. Its also apparent that Isshin isn't aware of Urahara's connection to the Vaizard. I also think Isshin will appear in this battle between Aizen and Co., and Urahara knew that Aizen would do what he was doing before Aizen did it.(the attack on KK) Aizen, besides SS, has to face Urahara, Isshin, and Vaizard according to the chapter.

Which makes me wonder, is the attack on the KK in SS the real Aizen, or just a hypnosis?


Edit: My thoughts might seem scattered, since that's how I think and I was just typing things down so I wouldn't lose my train of thought.

iorinyc
June 23, 2008, 12:31 AM
Holy crap!! I just booked that Isshin do have a white cape on his back and the symbol on it is a Sigma with a O in the middle. Hmmm......my bad for being sooo skeptic about your theory.

bladehappy
June 23, 2008, 12:34 AM
Holy crap!! I just booked that Isshin do have a white cape on his back and the symbol on it is a Sigma with a O in the middle. Hmmm......my bad for being sooo skeptic about your theory.

There's no 'O'. Don't exaggerate.

Jehuty
June 23, 2008, 12:38 AM
There's no 'O'. Don't exaggerate.
I think he might've been sarcastic.

bladehappy
June 23, 2008, 12:40 AM
I think he might've been sarcastic.

Oh okay. But about his shroud, cape, whatever, its pretty odd that its blank.

Jehuty
June 23, 2008, 12:44 AM
Oh okay. But about his shroud, cape, whatever, its pretty odd that its blank.
So is the badge, as far as I can tell.

bladehappy
June 23, 2008, 12:49 AM
So is the badge, as far as I can tell.

Yeah, I never really noticed the badge until I read your post. I think that might be there just for style, but then again, the badges match the back of the Captain's coat.

iorinyc
June 23, 2008, 12:54 AM
Don't call me liar. Here I circled the symbols. Sigma is that E looking letter and in the middle is O. http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1566/isshinuf2.jpg

bladehappy
June 23, 2008, 12:57 AM
Don't call me liar. Here I circled the symbols. Sigma is that E looking letter and in the middle is O. http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1566/isshinuf2.jpg

lol.

That's on all of the Captain's coats. Don't get carried away.

Also, another thing: I think Isshin changed his last name to Kurosaki. Since he was a captain, an obviously powerful one at that, he left 20 years prior to the story line. Somewhere along the line of the SS Invasion, or even after, someone must of said, "Kurosaki... That's a familiar name."

iorinyc
June 23, 2008, 01:00 AM
No its NOT. Its different symbol from Isshin. Here look at Ichimaro's cape, he have a different symbol. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Captain_uniform.jpg

Now look at Yamamoto's-http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/19/

Let me restate that...you don't see any Sigma symbol. Maybe its exclusive to the Zero division.

bladehappy
June 23, 2008, 01:11 AM
No its NOT. Its different symbol from Isshin. Here look at Ichimaro's cape, he have a different symbol. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Captain_uniform.jpg

Now look at Yamamoto's-http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/19/

Let me restate that...you don't see any Sigma symbol. Maybe its exclusive to the Zero division.

Go through the next couple of chapters, I don't feel like looking for it, but there's a full back view of Isshin that shows the complete cape.

Those things on the edges are on all Captain capes, that's how we are aware that Isshin was a captain at one point in time. There's no Sigma, which I stated before as weird.

Also, I wasn't to keen on the whole "Isshin being the 10th Kenpachi" thing. But now that I think about it, it seems pretty possible.

No one recognizes Ichigo's last name, making seem as if he changed it. The whole Zaraki killing the 10th Kenpachi could have just been for the media and all played out like the whole "Retiring" deal.

Jehuty
June 23, 2008, 01:27 AM
Go through the next couple of chapters, I don't feel like looking for it, but there's a full back view of Isshin that shows the complete cape.

Those things on the edges are on all Captain capes, that's how we are aware that Isshin was a captain at one point in time. There's no Sigma, which I stated before as weird.

Also, I wasn't to keen on the whole "Isshin being the 10th Kenpachi" thing. But now that I think about it, it seems pretty possible.

No one recognizes Ichigo's last name, making seem as if he changed it. The whole Zaraki killing the 10th Kenpachi could have just been for the media and all played out like the whole "Retiring" deal.
Aww, but I like the idea that Kenpachi sort of waltzed in and just cut a guy down, piece of cake.

bladehappy
June 23, 2008, 01:37 AM
Aww, but I like the idea that Kenpachi sort of waltzed in and just cut a guy down, piece of cake.

He probably did anyway.

Tanma
June 23, 2008, 03:07 AM
Aizen's army is still huge and there will be the Vasto Lordes anytime soon.

So I think the Vizards will not go against SS, but they will not just be friends with it. People who commands Seireitei are just assholes, they never do anything right or reasonable. That includes the commander, 1st Squad Captain, he's a plain idiot.

The Vizards will fight for their own good. They live on Earth, so I think they will fight besides Urahara, Ichigo and their companions.

PredakingD78
June 23, 2008, 03:08 AM
Not that I'm a supporter of the Isshin was a Kenpachi, but I have to admit. Isshin's rearing of Ichigo (the constant beat downs) seem to be line with what I'd expect a captain from Squad 11 would behave. And when Ichigo is in SS, Kenpanchi does kind of play the mentor role, to Ichigo. Less like a father, but more like a crazy uncle. Additionally, Ichigo and Zaraki both know no Kidou, have problems syncing with their Zakpanto and usually over estimate their ability. Thought, to his credit, Kenpanchi hasn't ben defeated.

So I guess there is a possiblity, but all I have is circumstantial evidence.

Betkas
June 23, 2008, 03:55 AM
Not that I'm a supporter of the Isshin was a Kenpachi, but I have to admit. Isshin's rearing of Ichigo (the constant beat downs) seem to be line with what I'd expect a captain from Squad 11 would behave. And when Ichigo is in SS, Kenpanchi does kind of play the mentor role, to Ichigo. Less like a father, but more like a crazy uncle. Additionally, Ichigo and Zaraki both know no Kidou, have problems syncing with their Zakpanto and usually over estimate their ability. Thought, to his credit, Kenpanchi hasn't ben defeated.

So I guess there is a possiblity, but all I have is circumstantial evidence.

I wouldn't compare those two as relatives. Both of them does things their ways. Kenpachi's only one purpose is to fight and to kill. We saw that his instincts are more animal then the other captains. Not like Ichigo. Ichigo fight for his friends, to protect them, to save them more humanly. Actually this thing sometimes gives doubts on his fights and he losses power. However Kenpachi has no doubts and stays enjoying all the fights.

For Kidou I think it's a matter of time if we will see Ichigo using Kidou power. He mastered bankai and hollow side so why he shouldn't learn kidou? He just hadn't time for that. And now when Kidou captain is introduced. We could see him pulling some neet stuff after the winter war arc.

lordHokage
June 23, 2008, 06:25 AM
I don't understand your response. :confused You were saying that Central 46 was corrupt for believing Aizen's report over Urahara. You are correct that in your second statement that Central 46 never explicitly stated that Aizen gave statements against Urahara, but I don't see where you were going with this. What do the names of Aizen, Gin, and Tousen have to do with anything?

I am sure Tousen had to have some sort of input in the investigation, since he was in Kensei's group that was attacked, but Gin would have no logical connection to the crime and would not have been suspected. If Gin's name were to come up though, I would imagine Aizen might have prepared for the event and made an illusory doppleganger of him as well.


If those spies were really following Urahara and shown up seconds later, Central 46 would have mentioned Aizen, Gin and Tousen names as well. :blink

patedecarne
June 23, 2008, 07:55 AM
I don't know about the spies following Urahara, but my theory is that some spies secretly entered on Urahara's squad and figured out about some hollowfication experiments; some evidencies here, then, Urahara wasn't in his division and finally, 8 captains and vice captains were turned in hollow, then, connecting all the events and we have Urahara being the guilty;

but still there's something I could figure out: When Urahara mentioned about Aizen, the judge's reactions were what relly bugged me: instead of asking why Urahara was framing Aizen, their response was that Aizen had about 125 witnesses;

With that, I'm thinking they knew that Urahara would frame Aizen, because the answer to Urahara's question was prepared...

again, Aizen could be the one who leaked some information about the hollowfication process...

hyn_pride93
June 23, 2008, 08:35 AM
of course it was Aizen. he was the one that obviously told Central everything. why else wud he do it if he didnt have a good alliby. idk how u spell that word...

wooticus
June 23, 2008, 11:09 AM
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-188/page010.html

and the following pages..

all three groups will fight the espada.. soul society, vizards, and kisuke, yoruichi, isshing & co

munafn
June 23, 2008, 11:51 AM
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-188/page010.html

and the following pages..

all three groups will fight the espada.. soul society, vizards, and kisuke, yoruichi, isshing & co

Good catch. I knew i had read it somewhere they would all be fighting against Aizen. Im not sure if it was confirmed whether ichimaru and tousen stepped into the fake KT with Aizen or not. I think theyr probably heading to soul society with yammy and wonderweiss and maybe some other fraccions. Then the vaizards confront them over there. I mean cos Aizen left HM in Ulq's care so obviously that means Ulq is the highest in rank left over ther. Plus apart from the possibility of the Vaizards being in the real KT in SS, we also have the Shiba family there for some additional backup i guess. And sorry if all this has been said before, just speaking out my mind.

No Quarter
June 23, 2008, 01:16 PM
There has to be a twist somewhere not so far down the line. The ratio of good guys to bad guys is simply ridiculous at this point. It's more than 3 : 1 !!! Unless Aizen & Co. are super duper, over-the-top, ridiculously uber powerful there is no way they can win against 3 fractions moving against them all of which are pretty powerful on their own.

There has to be some major ace Aizen (Kubo) has yet to reveal...

gold349
June 23, 2008, 01:46 PM
speaking of Aizen and his army, when did he aquire the vastro?, www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/19, this was after Grimmjow went to earth and lost five arrancar, at this time we had already seen Yammi and Ulquaria but Aizen speaks as if he has yet to find and join vastorodes, he has still to assemble them. This was before Ulq went on his given mission and Grimmjow's second visit to earth, www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/12-13, you can clearly see stark, Halibel and a few others, we know their numbers. what I'm getting at is from the moment aizen says he has to assemble the vastro, Ulq, Yammi, and Grimm was already shown the time between Geimmjow's arm being hacked off, to him going on his second visit to earth, this is when Aizen shows of Wonder wiece (spelling) isn't long at all, its what 16 chapters which is what a day/week what? So who is the additions or was it only Wonder Wiece, I know a silhouette was shown early on, its confusing, if anyone can shed light on his espada, or put it in some clear way that be great.

Starky-08
June 23, 2008, 03:33 PM
Good catch. I knew i had read it somewhere they would all be fighting against Aizen. Im not sure if it was confirmed whether ichimaru and tousen stepped into the fake KT with Aizen or not. I think theyr probably heading to soul society with yammy and wonderweiss and maybe some other fraccions. Then the vaizards confront them over there. I mean cos Aizen left HM in Ulq's care so obviously that means Ulq is the highest in rank left over ther. Plus apart from the possibility of the Vaizards being in the real KT in SS, we also have the Shiba family there for some additional backup i guess. And sorry if all this has been said before, just speaking out my mind.

Not only that but when they get there, here are a few other shinigami, Ikkaku I'm sure will be able to handle Yammy. Kira and Hisagi will have some troubles because their ex-captains just showed up and Momo I'm sure is still hurt so yeh, Ikkaku is probably there best chance there, unless thats where the Vizards appear well then...... stuff might happen which contains blood sword slashin and hopefully a death or two.....

Megaman84
June 23, 2008, 04:46 PM
Not only that but when they get there, there are a few other shinigami, Ikkaku I'm sure will be able to handle Yammy.


Ikkaku could only JUST about beat the 13th Arrancar Edorad Leones, so i would doubt he could bust Yammy up unfortunately, especially given the large differences in power we have seen evident so far as you go up the scale through the espada. Point taken that everyone is obviously going to 'muck in' in the impending ruckus.
I would hazard a guess that we are in for a chapter that is mainly going to be setting the scene for the upcoming chapters, im expecting a lot of mobilisation of forces and less dialogue than we have seen in the Gaiden.

Something i noticed whilst reading some old chapters was this :
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/08/
I found it quite interesting that Isshin predicted the Vaizards would contact Ichigo, i wonder what kind of implication and relation to the story line this has. Any thoughts?

ShaunMati1
June 23, 2008, 04:57 PM
There has to be a twist somewhere not so far down the line. The ratio of good guys to bad guys is simply ridiculous at this point. It's more than 3 : 1 !!! Unless Aizen & Co. are super duper, over-the-top, ridiculously uber powerful there is no way they can win against 3 fractions moving against them all of which are pretty powerful on their own.

There has to be some major ace Aizen (Kubo) has yet to reveal...

Actually ulquiorra is espada #4

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-271/page016.html

lordHokage
June 23, 2008, 05:37 PM
So I think the Vizards will not go against SS, but they will not just be friends with it. People who commands Seireitei are just assholes, they never do anything right or reasonable. That includes the commander, 1st Squad Captain, he's a plain idiot.

The Vizards will fight for their own good. They live on Earth, so I think they will fight besides Urahara, Ichigo and their companions.


I totally agree that 1st Squad Captain is a complete idiot and the Vizards will defend their honor. I wonder whether Soul Society knows about the Vizards and Aizen is in for a rude awakening, his old enemies are still alive and well waiting for revenge. :D

The Last Uchiha
June 23, 2008, 05:51 PM
It has always bugged me the fact that none of the Vizards, being Captains, will pull out their masks and bankais at the same time.

When Shinji fought Grimmjow, sure he had the advantage once he pull out the mask, but when Grimmjow decided that enough was enough, and he was about to pull out "Pantera", Shinji looked pretty concern as if that was as far as he could go. Also, he used 'cero' instead of some kidou, or bankai.

What if the current Vizards are more Hollow than Shinigami, but are slowly regaining their powers as Shinigami. It seems to me that currently Ichigo is the only perfect combination between the two, able to use Shinigami (bankai) and Hollow (Mask) abilities at will, and even in combination. The only way I could explain this is that unlike the current Vizards who were Shinigamis for decades and suddenly turned Hollow, Urahara caused Ichigo to recived his Shinigami Soul Reaper and his Hollow Mask at the same time.

Many people say Aizen is outnumbered out of his mind. But what if Aizen, Gin and Tousen were also perfect Vizards like Ichigo. Then the scale would drastically change if this were to be true. :darn

Enrique
June 23, 2008, 05:53 PM
Hmm what i think is odd is that when Isshin was talking to Urahara he knew about Aizen and the Hogyoku etc. How did he get all this Knowlegde? He had to be around Soul society for quite sometime.

Yvese
June 23, 2008, 07:37 PM
Perhaps after all the fighting is over KT will go back to the gaidens and finish up the 97 chapters that's left in it ( Assuming the chapter # of the gaidens have any significance )

the wizard ninja
June 23, 2008, 07:55 PM
Hmm what i think is odd is that when Isshin was talking to Urahara he knew about Aizen and the Hogyoku etc. How did he get all this Knowlegde? He had to be around Soul society for quite sometime.

Um, how about from Urahara? It isn't like that was the first time they met you know.


Perhaps after all the fighting is over KT will go back to the gaidens and finish up the 97 chapters that's left in it ( Assuming the chapter # of the gaidens have any significance )


They just represent a relative timeline, like -50 would happen after -60 which would happen after -63 and so on.

karimamin
June 23, 2008, 07:59 PM
I still think Aizen can control the Vizards with his bankai. If his normal release hypnotises people, then his bankai probably can turn them into hollows somehow and control them. Thus when the Vizards show up, they'll be controlled and force to fight the shinigami leaving Aizen to do as he pleases. Also Urahara will try to defend both the Vizards and shinigami and will reveal a "cure" for their ailment. Be it the vizards gain full control of their powers or they lose their powers entirely.

Edit: Of course I assume Aizen's sword is what caused people to initially turn into hollows.

Tsukisama
June 23, 2008, 08:11 PM
Yup, it's possible Ichigo's father is 1 of the Royal Guard, in the whole SS with all the shinigami, only the King zanpaku is always on the release form of Shikai, so Ichigo's father being a Royal Guard possibility is very high .

Seriously, enough with making stuff up. I have been watching your posts about more releases than bankai being stated and other wild claims. If these are your theories, present them as such, but I would really hate it if there was some gullible person who actually bought into your statements.


If those spies were really following Urahara and shown up seconds later, Central 46 would have mentioned Aizen, Gin and Tousen names as well. :blink

The Covert Ops agents were sent to investigate the 12th division, but there is no indication that they had been investigating Urahara before last night.

Also, the events of this chapter take place apparently the next day (probably morning after) after the night where Urahara encountered Aizen. Clearly there has been time elapse since Tessai first transported himself, Urahara, and the vizards to Urahara's lab.

cero_tenshou
June 23, 2008, 08:26 PM
i think it had to do with cutting the shinigami in a particular area of their soul that erases what separates the distinction between a shinigami soul and a hollow. i guess it may be a point like the soul sleep that can only be discovered through experimentation and thorough research.

VeshWolfe
June 23, 2008, 09:08 PM
I still think Aizen can control the Vizards with his bankai. If his normal release hypnotises people, then his bankai probably can turn them into hollows somehow and control them. Thus when the Vizards show up, they'll be controlled and force to fight the shinigami leaving Aizen to do as he pleases. Also Urahara will try to defend both the Vizards and shinigami and will reveal a "cure" for their ailment. Be it the vizards gain full control of their powers or they lose their powers entirely.

Edit: Of course I assume Aizen's sword is what caused people to initially turn into hollows.

Um no offense but no. Aizen's zanpaktu (or is it -to?) has the ability of "Ultimate Hypnosis" in its ShiKai state. Hypnosis and Hollowization are not related at all as far as we can so far tell in the manga. Furthermore, at the time when the Captains/ Vice Captains were becoming Hollows Aizen never had his sword drawn. If anything Aizen use another means which we dont know yet, to "turn" them. Which leads me to another point. What is stopping Aizen from reusing whatever he initially used to turn Shinigami into Hollow? That may very well be one of the reason he is not afraid of possibily being out numbered by the remaining 13 Court Guards. I also do not think that he knows of the existence of the Vizard yet. He porbably thinks they died, or turned into hollows and gradually were eaten, etc.

hajialibaig
June 23, 2008, 09:42 PM
Aizen's bankai controls hollows???

Baragan is Chad's grandfather?????

That old guy in central 46 is Baragan????????

There is a shinigami vasto lorde?????????????????

Just who comes up with such BS.....come on people :S

llamapie
June 23, 2008, 09:47 PM
Seriously, enough with making stuff up. I have been watching your posts about more releases than bankai being stated and other wild claims. If these are your theories, present them as such, but I would really hate it if there was some gullible person who actually bought into your statements.



The Covert Ops agents were sent to investigate the 12th division, but there is no indication that they had been investigating Urahara before last night.

Also, the events of this chapter take place apparently the next day (probably morning after) after the night where Urahara encountered Aizen. Clearly there has been time elapse since Tessai first transported himself, Urahara, and the vizards to Urahara's lab.

Been saying it all along. The whole point to this flashback arc was to get us to realize how evil Aizen was and how well he planned every last detail. I still have a burning question. If Urahara knew of Aizen's misdeeds and plans then he should have warned the group when they first entered Soul Society. -- Then again Ichigo never found out that Urahara was a former captain until after he entered the place. Certainly Urahara suspected something when Rukia was first arrested. I really don't know but this whole thing seems to be going down to the justice system of SS, which throughout is flawed.

cero_tenshou
June 23, 2008, 10:12 PM
Been saying it all along. If Urahara knew of Aizen's misdeeds and plans then he should have warned the group when they first entered Soul Society. -- Then again Ichigo never found out that Urahara was a former captain until after he entered the place. Certainly Urahara suspected something when Rukia was first arrested.

I think urahara was concerned that if he told Ichigo about Aizen, then Ichigo would go to SS trying to play hero and look for Aizen, Gin and/or Tousen where he would no doubt be easily killed. It would have been more simple for Ichigo to simply save Rukia and get out, and for Urahara to keep rukia in the real world long enough for the gigai to seal the Hougyoku forever. It just turned out that the gigai didnt seal her powers fast enough for Byakuya and Renji to find her. i guess that since Byakuya never did anything to him, then he didn't really want to interfere with him. So he sent Ichigo, who had a score to settle with Byakuya. And of course, Urahara didn't really what aizen is capable of, so he tried to keep Ichigo out of as much potential danger as possible, but he somehow still got roped into it because Urahara's plan failed.