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Gold Knight
July 14, 2006, 05:31 PM
Here's another early edition of my weekly reviews of Naruto chapters. Yep, only one day after the chapter hit the internet...! Probably would've even been sooner if I hadn't had to deal with driving with a trailer yesterday. Also, I wanted to add some images with my comments for your convenience.

Please remember that all my old reviews are now in this forum: here. (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?board=170.0) Hope you enjoy and feel free to make a few comments of your own if you have the time. :)


* * * Gold Knight's Ten Comments on Naruto Chapter 315: Advanced Training!! * * *


http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3981/315sceneqq5.jpg

1. Something's Missing... Oh! Yeah, yeah. No cover this week, but that means an extra page of actual story, right? So I'm sure nobody is going to complain ...right? ... Okay, yeah, except maybe all you colorists. Oh, yep, and I better not forget all of the hungry Narutards (including myself) that admire your work, and that makes up probably at least 85% of all the registered members here at this forum. Say, that's quite a lot of people who probably wanted a cover! But for the sake of discussion, let's forget for a sec that anything will be colored (and probably wonderfully so; if you haven't seen Zarosaki's current work (http://www.zarosaki.com), Dynamic Dragon's colorings, (http://pokefreak.deviantart.com/) and Vhea's covers, (http://vhea.deviantart.com/) I highly recommend checking them all out), would ANYBODY care too much about the lack of a cover? When you initially opened the folder to read the chapter, did you feel a slight disappointment that the chapter started right away with Kakashi talking to Naruto? Or perhaps, because you've been waiting so long to find out how the heck Kakashi was intending to train Naruto, maybe not at all? Hmm. In my own case, alright, I'll admit to being initially extremely disappointed when I saw that there wasn't a cover. Then I felt more than a bit silly not too long after, after all, it just means more story! Was I just being irrational?

If you would like to vote about your feelings on the matter, I've set up a poll on this topic, so enjoy. ;) Okay, moving on to the story now...

2. Yep, the MS... C? Waitaminute, Mass Shadow Clones!? Yes! After all these theories of Kakashi employing his Mangekyou Sharingan in order to train Naruto, which would have dismayed me personally, the training method ends up being almost completely in Naruto's hands, not his mentor's. And even better, with the power of his own favorite jutsu. So, in short, Kishimoto escapes the risk of being called unoriginal, and I also think this time he surprised nearly all his readers by not taking the MS route. Good for him.

The reason, of course, that I disliked the concept of the Mangekyou Sharingan creating a virtual "time-stop training ground" for Naruto was that it would have been WAY too trite in that it was superficially similar to how Son Goku and Gohan went about their training in Dragonballz. But this, the employment of the Tajū Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (Multiple Shadow Clone Technique) in the training, has more of a "Naruto" feeling and is much more unique. It also allows Naruto to go "full circle," allowing him to enjoy additional benefits and advantages of an extraordinary jutsu he's had since the very first chapter. Yay.

Wonder if this was the reason Kishimoto wanted to tease his readers for so long, because he wanted to make them all think deeply on it and start to suspect it was the MS, making the surprise even bigger in the end. Maybe he was trying to do a late April's Fool joke on us all. He is a tricky devil, after all...

3. Reconnaissance Man. I think we've all suspected it for a while now, ever since one of Naruto's bunshins fell to his knees in agony after the original had Kyuubified to Two-Tails, (http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9365/v31ch277096pr.png) a reaction that alarmed Kakashi enough to pull out the ol' trusty Jiraiya-recommended Chakra-Suppressing "condom...!" From that one scene, we could already guess that the clones possessed an emotional resonance of sorts to Naruto. And now we learn that the real McCoy, or McFox if you will, can also absorb all their memories and experiences when they vanish. Not to mention that if Yamato's apparent psychic link with his clone tailing Orochimaru (http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2346/ch300ukpage140zf.png) was anything to be judged by, Naruto may someday have the capability of being able to communicate telepathically with all his clones at some point. Intriguing! But seems as though he's been in the dark about all this for quite a while...

Still, I don't think you can really blame the overly-hyperactive teen for not knowing. Naruto's always been one to work closely together with his clones (http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/6318/naruto121065le.png), and he also tends to make so many that sometimes there's actually not enough space for all of them to fight in any given battle. Then there's the part where they were usually all working towards the same goal - defeating the current opponent, which obviously made for similar experiences that were probably merged into one cohesive memory when it was all said and done. Furthermore, the original Naruto was always somewhere nearby, either watching or participating, and his dominant perspective most likely took precedence over the different ones that appeared in his mind when the clones were dispelled. For somebody not exactly known for his intelligence, it kinda makes sense.

Sure, there's been times where one of Naruto's bunshins has to wander off from the rest of the flock (http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/2918/naruto5016178kx.jpg), but it didn't happen often from what we saw, and again, Naruto probably just never stopped to think about why he had two different memories of doing two different things at the same time - you could always blame it on his power of fierce concentration on accomplishing his goals. He didn't typically count on his clones to collect information for him - the closest was when he was searching for Sasuke in the halls of Orochimaru's lair. With more experience using his clones not just for fighting but rather searching, I'm sure he would have come to realize it eventually.

Still, I must say, it's amazing how much potential the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu gives Naruto in order to be one of the most astonishing reconnaissance scouts in Konohagakure. Even Neji may not have as much potential with his "All-Seeing Eye" - he can't find every trap in the area, for instance, because not all of them are so easily seen and can only be discovered by actually triggering them (ie. the Akatsuki's Clone traps). Compare that to how, with enough chakra, Naruto and his bunshins could easily explore and cover every inch of a territory in an instant and not worry so much about the consequences. Woo...!

EDIT: Jabbament corrected me that Yamato was in fact talking via a radio transmitter to his Moku bunshin (http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7756/065yh.png), so please discount what I said about the possibility of a telepathic link. In a way, I'm kind of glad, because it also means Naruto has more of an excuse not to have known the "recall" ability he has with his clones.

4. Luck of the Kyuubi...? Appropriate that Naruto should have the Devil's own luck what with the evil nine-tailed bijuu inside him. We've already seen that he had a talent for the lottery in chapter 156 (http://img347.imageshack.us/img347/3524/narutoc156p167ml.png) when he was just beginning the third step of his Rasengan training with Jiraiya's guidance. And now we see his bunshin defeating Kakashi's bunshin in a match of Rock, Paper, Scissors, which reminded me of that. Naruto's the reverse Tsunade, I guess, when it comes to luck.

5. Patience's the Key. It's already been well-established that it makes Kakashi's hair stand on end to have a pupil as slow-learning as Naruto. And now, here we see him wondering, "Jiraiya-sama, how the hell did you ever teach this kid a jutsu like the Rasengan?" Heh, now THAT brings some memories back. Remember, guys, when Asuma and Kurenai were both awed by Naruto's growth in the Chuunin Exams back in chapter 76? (http://img347.imageshack.us/img347/9521/naruto94025kb.jpg) As you can see, they were thinking such things as "This is that loser, Naruto?" and "What did Kakashi do?" Déjà vu!

Back then, though, I don't think Kakashi really should have been credited at all for Naruto's growth, as much as Naruto's innate talent for improvisement just had been underestimated by everybody. However, Jiraiya, being in Naruto's shoes once before, knew the right teaching method with Naruto, and that was, simply, patience. And that's what every great sensei, even in real life, needs to possess: a willingness to stay by their student while they absorb information, even if it takes days. And Kakashi's now having to learn it as well. But I guess it's not so easy being such a genius when it comes to training kids like Naruto, eh... but at least Kakashi wasn't as hot-blooded as he used to be before Obito died, huh!

Still, Jiraiya would often still vent about what an idiot Naruto was to his face when they were training together, so he was definitely frustrated at times as well. Luckily Naruto's known for his stubbornness, though, so maybe Kakashi should allow himself to mumble some obvious insults towards Naruto's way instead of keeping it all on the inside, just to get it out of his system. But I guess maybe he's too reserved for that sort of thing... guess we'll find out!

6. The Calm Before the Storm...! Okay, when Kakashi finally got it into Naruto's head that he would have to train with one thousand duplicates of himself at all times, I couldn't help but get a little excited to see the exercise start in full effect. In fact, everything seems to hint at some awesome, eye-opening Kishimoto artwork being on the way for our enjoyment. Hey, think about it for a second - this chapter wasn't very artistically involved, but it was dialogue-heavy, so didn't require much in the way of eye-opening visual masterpieces. This might mean that Kishimoto and his assistants were giving themselves a little time in order to finish illustrating some heavily involved art much like the one from the end of Chapter 202 (one of my personal favorite double spreads) for upcoming chapters:


http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4715/narutoch202p18191sr.th.png (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=narutoch202p18191sr.png)

Now imagine this - for the bulk of Naruto's training, we'll be seeing this sort of thing constantly, perhaps even with clones of Kakashi and Yamato's own joining in, while all the originals sit somewhere nearby watching everything going on. Perhaps they'll even go as far as disguise some of the clones as former enemies (maybe we'll see the return of Zabuza in a sense?) just to make it seem more intimidating a training exercise and to get the adrenaline running. Even the idea of a "Naruto Mock War" is fun to contemplate. Anyway, that's just my own imagination talking, but that's what I'd like to see coming in future chapters. Would be exciting and impressive, I bet.

7. Forbidden for a Reason. HisshouBuraiken, one of our translators here, commented along with his translation that "Wow, now we finally get why Kage Bunshin was labelled a forbidden jutsu... it's sick!"

True, but it wasn't because of its training potential, I have a feeling. Yes, Kakashi had just said, "With a thousand clones, something that would normally take you twenty years would take a week," which was what had spurred HisshouBuraiken to say that. But in my opinion, it's just that Naruto is the only one living in the entire village of Konohagakure whose original body won't be sucked completely dry from heavy usage of Kage Bunshin. In fact, Kakashi here clearly says that he's never been able to train that way, because he only has half of Naruto's "default" chakra. And that's not even counting the "Kyuubi chakra" within Naruto, which here we learn that with a little help, could give him 100 times as much power. I understand more than ever now why Kage Bunshin is forbidden. It could very easily kill its user once activated. It's no surprise at all to me that Naruto's the only one that can do this training.

8. The Return of Yamato...! Considering that Yamato had impressed me so much in the last storyarc, I'm glad to see him come back and participating in Naruto's training. Makes sense too, considering Yamato's the only jounin around that can help Naruto out in keeping the beast within him, although I didn't think they would have actually asked Naruto to draw power from it. Funnily enough, we've also never seen a case where a student actually has two elite teachers present at the time of his training in the series, so Naruto's golden luck surely must be at work again.

I'm also hopeful to see some more dialogue between Yamato and Kakashi to get a sense of how they must have gotten along with each other while they were on the same team in the ANBU. Yamato seems to have a great deal of respect for Kakashi, but in doing so he seems amazingly humble, because he seems capable of being just as great a shinobi himself. There's a story somewhere here, I have a feeling... and I don't think it's just a matter of Kakashi probably saving Yamato's life at some point, because Yamato's probably done the same for Kakashi. It's probably another Obito-Kakashi deal, where the two came to an understanding about each other, or at least Yamato did. The fun's all in finding out, though...

9. What's So Advanced About That? This is my main issue with the chapter. We see Kakashi explaining "five basic types of chakra used for jutsu," which counts fire, wind, water, lightning, and earth, for Naruto's training. The sidetext at the beginning of chapter had promoted Kakashi's lesson as a "ultra high-level lecture," yet I can easily see this sort of speech as part of an early Academy class with Iruka being the sensei! In fact, I'd be insulted, if I was a student at the Academy and they never tested to find out what element for which my chakra would be ideal!

And now Kakashi's explaining it to Naruto now, instead of earlier when Team 7 was first formed, when Naruto could have used the knowledge and worked on that for two years? What about Sakura? Is Kakashi ever going to tell her? Yeah, okay, Tsunade's probably already taught her, but that brings us to ANOTHER thing. Out of the five elements, where does "healing" and "puppeting" count? What about Shikamaru's "shadow manipulation?" Seems like there's more to it than just five basic types of chakra, doesn't it, and this doesn't exactly count as an "advanced" lesson.

The only reasonable explanation I can think of for these particular jutsus is that these aren't shaped from any type of nature, but rather are made of pure chakra, much like how Sakura channels her chakra to create devastation with her fists, Neji guides his own to invade the opponent's body, Kidoumaru hardens his own into golden skin, arrows, and webs, Kankurou sticks his own to his puppets, and yes, Naruto's Rasengan.

I suppose I just don't understand why Kakashi didn't go into all this already when Team 7 was first formed. It definitely would have helped Naruto early on to know what type of nature his chakra had an affinity for, and seems VERY negligent of him. But better late than never, I guess... but I'm still bothered by it.

10. Naruto Is... A Male Temari!? =O We did get an interesting revelation about Naruto there at the end, though his surname (meaning "Whirlpool") sort of hinted at it already. So is anybody surprised that Naruto's chakra is wind-inclined? I know I wasn't, and I guess that's why Kishimoto didn't bother to make it a cliffhanger for once. Now all our kid needs is a couple of fans and he's well on his way to being the next Temari... minus the sexy legs.

Seriously, though, the idea of Naruto being a "Weather Wizard," is kind of interesting. Very appropriate too, considering he's such a temperental kid. Wonder if we're about to learn all sorts of wind and tempest jutsus from here on. I've also noticed that people here have been arguing about the Rasengan being a wind jutsu - but like I already said, it's most definitely a "pure chakra" type of jutsu (http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/7704/narutoc155p060oo.jpg). But even so, it's still likely that Naruto's chakra tendency probably helped out on his one-week "crash course" in being able to do a jutsu resembling a small typhoon. And it might be that Naruto is supposed to make his Rasengan an actual super-powered "Wind Jutsu" by adding the element to it in some form, though.

Sidenote: I also happened to enjoy the introduction and concept of the "paper tests." Very inventive, and fun to think about how that "special" paper would respond to all the characters in the series. I also wonder too, if the paper would even respond to Rock Lee at all. Probably not. What's Sakura's element, though? Maybe Water? Earth? Hmm. Opens a whole world of theorizing, doesn't it?

RATING: 4 out of 5 stars. Something about the lesson being described as "advanced" just annoyed me (see Comment 9), and there wasn't much going on anyway that it should deserve a five-star ranking. What saved the chapter from a three-star ranking for me was the dismissal of Kakashi's Mangekyou Sharingan having anything to do with the training, which made me happy. And I can't wait to see all the possibilities that might come out of this Kage Bunshin training exercise.

Predictions: According to the preview for the next chapter, the Akatsuki is going to make an appearance. I'm going to take a big guess here and say that it won't be Hidan and Kakuzu, because weren't they going to collect a bounty on Chiriku? May be Tobi and Deidara instead. Or even Itachi and Kisame, finally coming to make an attempt at capturing Naruto. Other than that, I predict that the training will begin, obviously, and also that Asuma will make another appearance - we'll probably hear more about his plan since the preview ended with the title "Penance," and remember, Asuma seemed to be trying to atone for his past mistakes with his father. Of course, previews generally aren't to be trusted at all, but I still can't wait anyway.

Hope you enjoyed, looking forward to hearing from you guys!

destinator
July 14, 2006, 05:35 PM
10 commandments already xD? You're getting better and better especially with adding additional pictures... =)
Keep on with it and I have to read something now!

C4animax
July 14, 2006, 06:14 PM
Er i'm the second one to vote i don't care... :D cause really that doesn't change much...

ibra87
July 14, 2006, 06:14 PM
Great comments as usual, I've been waiting for these all day :D And I'm happy you added those pictures, really helps us understand what you mean.



Yeah, yeah. No cover this week, but that means an extra page of actual story, right?

I agree on this one. I would actually like to see more story than seeing a single cover. Especially when there's a risk it might be something like Sakura sleeping on a coach couch.




Sure, there's been times where one of Naruto's bunshins has to wander off from the rest of the flock, but it didn't happen often from what we saw, and again, Naruto probably just never stopped to think about why he had two different memories of doing two different things at the same time - you could always blame it on his power of fierce concentration on accomplishing his goals.

I think that by that time, Kishi didn't even think about this, since it's almost at the start of the manga.



Hey, think about it for a second - this chapter wasn't very artistically involved, but it was dialogue-heavy, so didn't require much in the way of eye-opening visual masterpieces. This might mean that Kishimoto and his assistants were giving themselves a little time in order to finish illustrating some heavily involved art much like the one from the end of Chapter 202 (one of my personal favorite double spreads) for upcoming chapters

I certainly hope so. Other than a bit of Akatsuki action, all the previous chapters have been kind of slow IMO.



And now Kakashi's explaining it to Naruto now, instead of earlier when Team 7 was first formed, when Naruto could have used the knowledge and worked on that for two years?

That's what I thought too. There is a possibility that the idiot Naruto never actually paid attention to Iruka, thus never learning it, but how come no one e.g. Sakura asked him what his element was? Then again, I think it's just a new idea that came to Kishi all of a sudden.

And another thing was that this reminds me of HxH. I was like WTF!? You know, manipulation, transformation etc. Especially the part about that each person is very good @ something, but can probably learn other elements as well (Sasuke is most probably fire, but he learned Chidori). If Kishi however says something about some elements you can't master if you are a certain element-type (like in HxH where Kurapica couldn't master Manipulation since he was a transformation type), I will personally travel to China and hit him with a stick :yelling. You heard me. (This part was hard to explain :p)



It could very easily kill its user once activated. It's no surprise at all to me that Naruto's the only one that can do this training.

I kind of disagree. I think it's because this technique is deadly. If it was a normal technique for everybody then it would have been easier for e.g. criminals to commit crimes and countries to invade others. I don't think one can actually die from making kage bunshins. You might just faint.



Naruto Is... A Male Temari!? =O

I was kind of disappointed and surprised. Don't know why you weren't. I never actually thought that the wind element was appropriate for a main character, just too boring. I hope Kishi proves me wrong.

That's all, as said b4, great comments, *looks forward to 316 comments*

La_Muerte
July 14, 2006, 06:22 PM
yes i agree with u that the kage bunshin was the last thing i woulda thought that would be used to help naruto in his training, and i would also like to see another 2 page spread of the naruto clones like in chapter 202 and like in the fight against mizuki

jabbament
July 14, 2006, 06:57 PM
1. Something's Missing... Oh!
I don't care about covers...hell, I didn't even notice 1 was missing. :p (Yep, I voted "I don't care" too!)


2. Yep, the MS... C? Waitaminute, Mass Shadow Clones!?
Yeah, I'm glad it wasn't MS. He'd have alot of explaining to do (Kishi I mean) about how the heck Kakashi got the same MS at Itachi, eventhough he has only 1 Sharingan and no Uchiha blood....I don't think it'd have been possible for Kishi to explain that one.


3. Reconnaissance Man.
Chakra-Suppressing "condom...!", eh? Yeah. I've never really thought about the recon use of Kage Bunshin, ya know. But it makes a lot of sense. Set off traps would definately not be an issue, as they'd just disappear after they were hit.

Though, another use that Kakashi should press upon Naruto is to make Naruto use his 1,000 clones and GO READ A BOOK, while he trains Naruto and some more clones in a different way.Think about it, 1,000 clones all reading a book could potentially make Naruto slightly less idiotic. I think that'd be a nice thought. :p

Also, about Yamato, he was communicating via a radio to his clone (http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7756/065yh.png)...and in that one picture, you can see by where his ear would be, 3 lines, and along with the exclamation point, would indicate to me his clone is talking to him.


4. Luck of the Kyuubi...?
Hah, I forgot about Tsunade's crap luck. Naruto really is the opposite of Tsunade when it comes to luck...sucks for her. :s


5. Patience's the Key.
Yeah Kakashi, being a super elite Ninja, training an idiot like Naruto would be helluva annoying. Well, Kakashi needs to look at this entire "Training Naruto" experience as training for himself too...if he can train Naruto, he can train anyone.


6. The Calm Before the Storm...!
I'm not sure about mock battles and everything yet...first Naruto has to learn how to use elementals, so we'll probably see 1,000+ clones doing some sort of training exercises (maybe something similar to Rasengan training). Once he has that down, then practical application for the jutsu would be some sort of massive battle. Naruto x 1000 vs. Kakashi x 250 + Yamato x 250 = Hell yeah! (1000 vs 1000 wouldn't be fair on Naruto given how strong those 2 are.)


7. Forbidden for a Reason.
Can Kage Bunshin kill the user? The chakra spreads evenly, so mathematically its impossible to hit empty that way, unless the process of dispelling requires chakra, I don't see how it would. If you use numbers, it doesn't work:

Kakashi Chakra = 2500
Naruto Chakra = 5000

1000 Kakshi clones = 25 chakra/clone
1000 Naruto clones = 50 chakra/clone

Sure, with that amount of chakra, using ninjutsu/genjutsu would probably be impossible, but would it kill them? Even if you lower the numbers, you'll never really hit 0 (which would be death). As far as we know only using up 100% of your chakra can equal death. If you've got a small amount left, you'll be in bad shape and won't be able to do anything for a few days/weeks, but death? I wouldn't think so.
I like thinking in numbers if you haven't noticed...


8. The Return of Yamato...!
Yamato is awesome. Plain and simple. I'm glad he's going to be around longer, as he never got a chance to shine in battle back in the Enter Sai!/Operation: Rescue Sasuke! arc...and personally, I'm helluva tired of people saying (or even thinking) stuff like, "omfg Sasuke >>>>> Yamato!", 'cuz Yamato wasn't trying to kill Sasuke. If he was, then I believe things would have gone very differently. He appeared "weak" because he was thinking about Naruto and Sakura's feelings.


9. What's So Advanced About That?
I'm sure to Naruto, that lecture was very advanced. I think you're right about them learning it in school, but they don't learn many practical techniques in school do they? Sure, they learn how to make regular Bunshins and how to transform, but anything else? Probably not...I think a lot of supposed to be learned on your own with the help from your Jounin instructor (though, it would make sense at that point for the instructors to find out what element they were aligned to...but Kakashi's a slacker! :p)

As for Sakura, I'd say she's water. Water seems to be the most aligned to healing and life ('cuz our bodies are heavily dependant on water to survive). It would make sense if she were aligned to water as well, and would account to how fast she was able to learn her healing techniques (Tsunade was impressed at how fast Sakura was learning her healing jutsu (http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3200/narutoch238p058ab.png)).

And as you quoted, those 5 are just the basic types. There are definately more (heck, healing might be its own element in a sense if its not water) out there like Shikamaru's Kagemane no jutsu and Yamato's Mokuton...but no doubt those are closely guarded by families. (Even Shikamaru's father says Kagemanu is a secret jutsu. (http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9523/narutoch137p0365cf.png))


10. Naruto Is... A Male Temari!? =O
Well, I don't think Naruto fits as any other element really...and eh, if the whole "Yondaime is Naruto's father" comes true, and we learn more about him, Yondaime's unnaturaly fast speed (I'm talking normal movement, since he was abnormally fast even without the help of a jutsu) could have been aided by his alignment to wind.

Other than that, if Naruto ever does get any sort of weapon, which he might (otherwise how is he going to counter a blow from Sasuke's sword?), I hope its not another sword...and god forbid he get fans. My favorite weapon are tonfa (aka a police baton/nightstick (http://karatedojo.uazone.net/img/hist/tonfa/tonfa%20pr24start.jpg)), and I think it'd totally own to see Naruto usin' 2 of them. One way to use them is to use them like forearm "shields", but they can also be spun around in circles to build momentum before striking. Naruto using wind to spin them helluva fast before a strike (or even a half revolution to strike someone/catch them off guard (http://karatedojo.uazone.net/img/hist/tonfa/tonfa%20pr24end.jpg)) would be pretty awesome I think...but I favor tonfa alot, especially bladed ones. :p (Strider Hiryu anyone?)


It was a good chapter, and I'd agree with your 4/5. I wasn't too offended/bothered by the whole "advanced discussion" thing, and I think trying to explain something like that to 6-8 year olds (isn't that the average age when they join the academy?) would be over their head...which could be another reason why they don't do it in school.

And bleh, that was long, but oh well. :D

nova_1813
July 14, 2006, 07:17 PM
Great comments as usual, and i especially agree with the one about kage bunshin, i too always wondered why it was forbidden and why other jounins never used it to the extent naruto does, now i think i know why. Cuz it will and can kill or exhaust the user.

Gold Knight
July 14, 2006, 08:05 PM
Thanks all for reading and your comments! Now to reply to some...



I agree on this one. I would actually like to see more story than seeing a single cover. Especially when there's a risk it might be something like Sakura sleeping on a coach.

p0rn! ( Should've said "couch" there, but I knew what you meant. XD )


I think that by that time, Kishi didn't even think about this, since it's almost at the start of the manga.

Kishimoto seems to have planned a lot of the series out at the beginning, though. I still think he always intended for Naruto to learn more new things that he could do with his Kage Bunshin along the way, just for the sake of keeping the story interesting, and tried to keep him from being too much of a master of it.


I certainly hope so. Other than a bit of Akatsuki action, all the previous chapters have been kind of slow IMO.

I can't say I agree - ever since Sasuke appeared, the chapters have been pretty entertaining to me. I'll say that there was definitely a slump during the journey to Orochimaru's lair, but that was quite a while ago now. This chapter was definitely even more relaxed than usual, tho.


That's what I thought too. There is a possibility that the idiot Naruto never actually paid attention to Iruka, thus never learning it, but how come no one e.g. Sakura asked him what his element was? Then again, I think it's just a new idea that came to Kishi all of a sudden.

Agreed there. I also agree that there's the possibility that Naruto slept through that class, but nevertheless it seems so much a crucial bit of information to know if you're an aspiring shinobi in Konohagakure that I can't believe it hasn't been brought up before now. I guess everybody just assumed that Naruto would know, and apparently we've been missing out on conversations that the others must've had (ie. Sakura and Ino discussing that subject). Still, I feel like somehow I've been left out all this time. I'll guarantee you that all our fanfic writers would probably have liked to know about that, as well...! It adds so much to the whole training concept.


And another thing was that this reminds me of HxH. I was like WTF!? You know, manipulation, transformation etc. Especially the part about that each person is very good @ something, but can probably learn other elements as well (Sasuke is most probably fire, but he learned Chidori). If Kishi however says something about some elements you can't master if you are a certain element-type (like in HxH where Kurapica couldn't master Manipulation since he was a transformation type), I will personally travel to China and hit him with a stick :yelling. You heard me. (This part was hard to explain :p)

Hm, hope that's not the case myself... and I rather think it's not, because Sandaime seems quite capable of mastering any elements, as well as Kakashi. I can understand that some would have more of a comfort with their "natural elements" though, ie. Zabuza and his mist techniques, Haku and his ice techniques, and Gaara and his sand techniques.


I kind of disagree. I think it's because this technique is deadly. If it was a normal technique for everybody then it would have been easier for e.g. criminals to commit crimes and countries to invade others. I don't think one can actually die from making kage bunshins. You might just faint.

Actually, if you run out of chakra, you'll die. This is from Ebisu's lecture in Chapter 90:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/6870/chakraexpiration1wy.jpg

Imagine if Naruto had just been a normal kid, and tried to perform the jutsu. It would have sapped all his chakra instanteously, and he'd have died before even having a chance to send all his clones after Mizuki.

I'll agree that if an enemy (like Kisame, who does have the chakra) is ever able to learn this jutsu, it would mean a lot of trouble for Konohagakure, though.


I was kind of disappointed and surprised. Don't know why you weren't. I never actually thought that the wind element was appropriate for a main character, just too boring. I hope Kishi proves me wrong.

Actually, now that I think more on it, "Whirlpool" actually implies more of a "Water" affinity, but ah well. I don't know why I wasn't surprised, but I wasn't expecting it to be "Fire" or "Electricity," because Sasuke and Kakashi were already well known for these. I didn't think it would be "Earth," because that seems more of a poor man's jutsu (EVERYBODY seems to know a Earth jutsu of some sort, I mean). So it was either "Wind" or "Water."


That's all, as said b4, great comments, *looks forward to 316 comments*


I'm looking forward to 316 and commenting on it myself XD Thanks for reading! :)



yes i agree with u that the kage bunshin was the last thing i woulda thought that would be used to help naruto in his training, and i would also like to see another 2 page spread of the naruto clones like in chapter 202 and like in the fight against mizuki


So fun to ponder about, isn't it?



I don't care about covers...hell, I didn't even notice 1 was missing. :p (Yep, I voted "I don't care" too!)

Somehow I'm not surprised XD


Yeah, I'm glad it wasn't MS. He'd have alot of explaining to do (Kishi I mean) about how the heck Kakashi got the same MS at Itachi, eventhough he has only 1 Sharingan and no Uchiha blood....I don't think it'd have been possible for Kishi to explain that one.

Well, Kishimoto still has to explain that one regardless! That is, why Kakashi did end up with some kind of MS offspring. He's already called his advanced Sharingan by the same name, and Itachi seemed to know that he had it, so it's not something completely different. But the more I think about it, part of Kakashi's appeal is all the "mysteries" of his character. First, of course, there's his face, which we've never seen. Then there was the question of how he had the Sharingan, which the Gaiden explained already. And now, I think, in order to replace that old "mystery," Kishimoto has given us another one to tease our brains.

In any case, I just didn't want to see a training like this, because it would have seemed cliche.


Chakra-Suppressing "condom...!", eh? Yeah. I've never really thought about the recon use of Kage Bunshin, ya know. But it makes a lot of sense. Set off traps would definately not be an issue, as they'd just disappear after they were hit.

Yep, convenient jutsu to have!


Though, another use that Kakashi should press upon Naruto is to make Naruto use his 1,000 clones and GO READ A BOOK, while he trains Naruto and some more clones in a different way.Think about it, 1,000 clones all reading a book could potentially make Naruto slightly less idiotic. I think that'd be a nice thought. :p

Haha. The problem is all 1000 would fall asleep after a while, or start complaining to Kakashi simulateously. I don't know about you, but I don't think Kakashi wants to hear a complaint like that times 1000 directed his way.


Also, about Yamato, he was communicating via a radio to his clone (http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7756/065yh.png)...and in that one picture, you can see by where his ear would be, 3 lines, and along with the exclamation point, would indicate to me his clone is talking to him.

I stand corrected, thanks ^_^ Funny all the things you can potentially miss... anyway, I've edited your correction into my Ten Comments. That was definitely a boo-boo on my part.


Hah, I forgot about Tsunade's crap luck. Naruto really is the opposite of Tsunade when it comes to luck...sucks for her. :s

Making it even worse is every time Tsunade does win something, it's an omen of bad luck... XD


Yeah Kakashi, being a super elite Ninja, training an idiot like Naruto would be helluva annoying. Well, Kakashi needs to look at this entire "Training Naruto" experience as training for himself too...if he can train Naruto, he can train anyone.

But would he want to? XD I have a feeling that Kakashi won't ever be anybody else's sensei again after his team's gone.


I'm not sure about mock battles and everything yet...first Naruto has to learn how to use elementals, so we'll probably see 1,000+ clones doing some sort of training exercises (maybe something similar to Rasengan training). Once he has that down, then practical application for the jutsu would be some sort of massive battle. Naruto x 1000 vs. Kakashi x 250 + Yamato x 250 = Hell yeah! (1000 vs 1000 wouldn't be fair on Naruto given how strong those 2 are.)

I agree, it'll likely be some kind of slow-pace "individual exercise" early on, but still, nothing like a battle to make yourself get better. Naruto didn't master the Rasengan until he was threatened with death by Kabuto, after all.


Can Kage Bunshin kill the user? The chakra spreads evenly, so mathematically its impossible to hit empty that way, unless the process of dispelling requires chakra, I don't see how it would. If you use numbers, it doesn't work:

Kakashi Chakra = 2500
Naruto Chakra = 5000

1000 Kakshi clones = 25 chakra/clone
1000 Naruto clones = 50 chakra/clone

Sure, with that amount of chakra, using ninjutsu/genjutsu would probably be impossible, but would it kill them? Even if you lower the numbers, you'll never really hit 0 (which would be death). As far as we know only using up 100% of your chakra can equal death. If you've got a small amount left, you'll be in bad shape and won't be able to do anything for a few days/weeks, but death? I wouldn't think so.

Wasn't thinking about Kage Bunshin being a technique that required "distribution of chakra," but if you had any of them use additional jutsus that expended further chakra, you'd run the risk of death. Still, I see your point. Anybody with insufficient chakra might just create a thousand "flawed" clones. Kishimoto needs to write a "Bunshin Physics" book or something.

I also can see what ibra87 meant too now. I guess it all hinges on where the chakra goes when you use that jutsu, and whether you have enough chakra or not left over to do some serious training without risking your own life.



Yamato is awesome. Plain and simple. I'm glad he's going to be around longer, as he never got a chance to shine in battle back in the Enter Sai!/Operation: Rescue Sasuke! arc...and personally, I'm helluva tired of people saying (or even thinking) stuff like, "omfg Sasuke >>>>> Yamato!", 'cuz Yamato wasn't trying to kill Sasuke. If he was, then I believe things would have gone very differently. He appeared "weak" because he was thinking about Naruto and Sakura's feelings.

Agreed. And just as Yamato was about to get "serious," too, Sasuke turned tail with Kabuto and Orochimaru. Not to mention Yamato did effectively free himself from Sasuke's attack even though his whole body was being paralyzed with Chidori, an impressive feat no matter what anybody says. He's still lucky, though, that Sasuke was distracted by the Kyuubi "talk" and didn't just kill him outright, but nevertheless... Sasuke won't fool Yamato again with his sword like that, so it would be different next time.


I'm sure to Naruto, that lecture was very advanced. I think you're right about them learning it in school, but they don't learn many practical techniques in school do they? Sure, they learn how to make regular Bunshins and how to transform, but what anything else? Probably not...I think a lot of supposed to be learned on your own with the help from your Jounin instructor (though, it would make sense at that point for the instructors to find out what element they were aligned to...but Kakashi's a slacker! :p)

True, to Naruto it would be advanced, I suppose. But I disagree on Kakashi being a slacker... he wouldn't be able to climb a mountain with a bare hand if he hadn't participated in SOME sort of rigorous training, heh. Not to mention he's always being sent off on missions and accomplishing them. He's just an easy-going character. Now, Jiraiya, there's a slacker. Always women-gazing.


As for Sakura, I'd say she's water. Water seems to be the most aligned to healing and life ('cuz our bodies are heavily dependant on water to survive). It would make sense if she were aligned to water as well, and would account to how fast she was able to learn her healing techniques (Tsunade was impressed at how fast Sakura was learning her healing jutsu (http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3200/narutoch238p058ab.png)).

Yeah, I'd be cool with that.


And as you quoted, those 5 are just the basic types. There are definately more (heck, healing might be its own element in a sense if its not water) out there like Shikamaru's Kagemane no jutsu and Yamato's Mokuton...but no doubt those are closely guarded by families. (Even Shikamaru's father says Kagemanu is a secret jutsu. (http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9523/narutoch137p0365cf.png))

Yeah, and Bloodlimit techniques seem to be more DNA-related than nature-related, and I guess the Kagemane no Jutsu ought to count as one.


Well, I don't think Naruto fits as any other element really...and eh, if the whole "Yondaime is Naruto's father" comes true, and we learn more about him, Yondaime's unnaturaly fast speed (I'm talking normal movement, since he was abnormally fast even without the help of a jutsu) could have been aided by his alignment to wind.

Very good observation there. Run, Yondy, run like the wind! >.>


Other than that, if Naruto ever does get any sort of weapon, which he might (otherwise how is he going to counter a blow from Sasuke's sword?), I hope its not another sword...and god forbid he get fans. My favorite weapon are tonfa (aka a police baton/nightstick (http://karatedojo.uazone.net/img/hist/tonfa/tonfa%20pr24start.jpg)), and I think it'd totally own to see Naruto usin' 2 of them. One way to use them is to use them like forearm "shields", but they can also be spun around in circles to build momentum before striking. Naruto using wind to spin them helluva fast before a strike (or even a half revolution to strike someone/catch them off guard (http://karatedojo.uazone.net/img/hist/tonfa/tonfa%20pr24end.jpg)) would be pretty awesome I think...but I favor tonfa alot, especially bladed ones. :p (Strider Hiryu anyone?)

Hm, can't say I know what I'd like for Naruto's weapons to be, but I agree I hope it wouldn't be some sort of sword. And I was joking about the fans. But I wouldn't mind if Naruto had some sort of bo staff.


It was a good chapter, and I'd agree with your 4/5. I wasn't too offended/bothered by the whole "advanced discussion" thing, and I think trying to explain something like that to 6-8 year olds (isn't that the average age when they join the academy?) would be over their head...which could be another reason why they don't do it in school.

And bleh, that was long, but oh well. :D


And enlightening to me, thanks a lot! I'm glad somebody took the time to correct me on some things I obviously got wrong. ^_^



Great comments as usual, and i especially agree with the one about kage bunshin, i too always wondered why it was forbidden and why other jounins never used it to the extent naruto does, now i think i know why. Cuz it will and can kill or exhaust the user.


Guess that's something still up for dispute, though, if Jabbament's comment is right. I'd have to look more into that and see where it's said that the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu is an even distribution of chakra.[br]Posted on: July 14, 2006, 07:28:15 PM_________________________________________________* * *

Alright, just re-read Ebisu's lesson (Chapter 90) and what I get from it is that there are two things you have to watch out when doing a Bunshin no Jutsu, and that's your stamina and chakra. I know Ebisu was just exaggerating in that chapter so I'm not going to use the same numbers he did, but let's say that if somebody uses up all their stamina in order to make the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu work, it'd definitely result into death.

jabbament
July 14, 2006, 08:09 PM
Well, Kishimoto still has to explain that one regardless! That is, why Kakashi did end up with some kind of MS offspring. He's already called his advanced Sharingan by the same name, and Itachi seemed to know that he had it, so it's not something completely different. But the more I think about it, part of Kakashi's appeal is all the "mysteries" of his character. First, of course, there's his face, which we've never seen. Then there was the question of how he had the Sharingan, which the Gaiden explained already. And now, I think, in order to replace that old "mystery," Kishimoto has given us another one to tease our brains.

In any case, I just didn't want to see a training like this, because it would have seemed cliche.
Yeah...all in time though. I'd attribute him being able to manipulate the Sharingan into what he calls MS, to him being an extreme genius. I am curious either way about both issues (the face and MS).



Wasn't thinking about Kage Bunshin being a technique that required "distribution of chakra," but if you had any of them use additional jutsus that expended further chakra, you'd run the risk of death. Still, I see your point. Anybody with insufficient chakra might just create a thousand "flawed" clones. Kishimoto needs to write a "Bunshin Physics" book or something.
Well, the theory behind Kage Bunshin is that the chakra is split between each clone (which is a real body). If 1 clone drained his chakra, the clone would "die" and disappear. As long as the real Naruto doesn't use up his remaining chakra, he wouldn't die.

By the way, that was supposed to read (I'm high, so shaddup, Paladin!):

Kakashi Chakra = 25,000
Naruto Chakra = 50,000

If Naruto created 1,000 clones and had 50 chakra (yeah, back to the numbers) left over, he wouldn't die...he'd be dangerously low on chakra, but it wouldn't kill him. If he doubled the number of clones, all that would happen is that each would have 25 chakra and wouldn't be able to do anything but taijutsu (since Naruto is horrible at his chakra control :p).

No matter how many times you split 1 number, you'll never hit 0. Divide 1 into 1,000,000 pieces, and its still not zero. 0.0000001 > 0. And 0.0000001 isn't 0% when it comes to numbers. Its extremely miniscule, but its still greater than 0.

For something like Chidori, which consumes a massive amount of Chakra lets assume:

Kakashi = 25,000 chakra
Chidori = 5,500 chakra

Kakashi could use Chidori 4 times safely, and if he forces the 5th, it would consume all of his chakra, and worst case scenario he would die. (His body would hit that 0% mark that way.)


Agreed. And just as Yamato was about to get "serious," too, Sasuke turned tail with Kabuto and Orochimaru. Not to mention Yamato did effectively free himself from Sasuke's attack even though his whole body was being paralyzed with Chidori, an impressive feat no matter what anybody says. He's still lucky, though, that Sasuke was distracted by the Kyuubi "talk" and didn't just kill him outright, but nevertheless... Sasuke won't fool Yamato again with his sword like that, so it would be different next time.
That's for sure...and next time Yamato won't be so "understanding" since he's seen for himself that Sasuke has completely "turned". He'll go all out for sure...and yeah, I never thought about it, but it was quite the feat for Yamato to free himself. :p


True, to Naruto it would be advanced, I suppose. But I disagree on Kakashi being a slacker... he wouldn't be able to climb a mountain with a bare hand if he hadn't participated in SOME sort of rigorous training, heh. Not to mention he's always being sent off on missions and accomplishing them. He's just an easy-going character. Now, Jiraiya, there's a slacker. Always women-gazing.
Oh, that was only to the extend of training his students, Paladin. If he was a slacker, he'd never know over 1,000 different jutsu and be perhaps the #1 Jounin in Konoha. And hey now, in terms of humor, Jiraya > Kakashi. :p


Hm, can't say I know what I'd like for Naruto's weapons to be, but I agree I hope it wouldn't be some sort of sword. And I was joking about the fans. But I wouldn't mind if Naruto had some sort of bo staff.
I want to see a weapon that no one has used yet. Sandaime had Enma transform into a bo staff already...I'd like to see something new in regards to weaponry.


And enlightening to me, thanks a lot! I'm glad somebody took the time to correct me on some things I obviously got wrong. ^_^
As the Anti-Paladin, that's my job, ya know. :p


Guess that's something still up for dispute, though, if Jabbament's comment is right. I'd have to look more into that and see where it's said that the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu is an even distribution of chakra.

The Chuunin exam, Naruto vs. Neji. (http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3978/naruto121056df.png)

And I thought I remembered in 1 other place as well...too lazy to check. :p

Gold Knight
July 14, 2006, 08:18 PM
Ah, yeah, that makes sense as to how the clones would deceive Neji's Byakugan. Ah well, check out my Edit at the bottom of my last post. That would be sufficient enough of a reason that the Kage Bunshin would be a serious risk to anybody if it used up all of one's stamina. And yeah, I'll be more careful from now to refer to "stamina" instead of "chakra" to describe why that jutsu might be so dangerous.

Also forgot about Sandaime's bo staff as well. Oh well, I'll go with what you suggested then, tonfa would be just as cool with me.

jabbament
July 14, 2006, 08:27 PM
But, Stamina is physical stamina. If you train to the point where you can't move, you're not dead...you just have no stamina left over. :s

I think its a whole balance between Stamina and Chakra. If you've been fighting, you're obviously worn out (to a point), and you'd have less chakra to work with, so using a technique that splits your chakra (or one that consumes alot), would be more difficult, and the ability to use it correctly without draining too much excess chakra becomes difficult. In that regard, I can see how using a technique that spreads your chakra out so thin could be deadly (especially with someone so bad at their chakra control).

And blargh! Don't agree with me, 'cuz you're too lazy to have your own idea. Lame, Paladin. Very lame!

yeste
July 14, 2006, 08:33 PM
Heh, I just logged in to see if anyone has replied to any of my few post, before I go to sleeeeeep, and surprise, surprise… the review I’ve been hoping for is here!!! Thanks a lot Gold Knight!!!

Since I’m the type that will do other things instead of sleeping, especially if they are interesting… Here’s my comment on this…

About the cover, honestly I didn’t even noticed! OK, I did, but I thought that is was just the Scanlation that I downloaded… Now that I think about it, it’s great to have more story, but I also like the covers.

It’s not the MS!!! You’re right on there! It would be kind of lame if it was the MS training, but no one expected this… Shadow clones!!! This brings up a new light on that jutsu, and what a jutsu it turned out to be. Especially in Naruto’s case!!! Good point bringing that scene there “one of Naruto's bunshins fell to his knees in agony after the original had Kyuubified to Two-Tails”!!! I totally forgot about that!!! But it’s true, that was a hint!!! And a great one…

Hmmm, about Kakashi and Naruto… It’s great to see them work together, but I’ve always been under impression that ( in the part one of the manga! ) Kakashi was kind of reserved toward Naruto. There are lots of justified reasons that come to mind for this, maybe he just didn’t want to give him any special attention that he so eagerly wanted just to keep the same relation level with all of his students/subordinates… Don’t really know, but for me it’s always been there! But it looks like that’s changed now! Patience's the Key you’re right about that. I wonder how long will Kakashi take to realize this?

YES! Yamato is back! Good call on that relation between Yamato and Kakashi, it certainly looks that way. There’s a story for sure, and I hope that we’ll get it some day. It was also interesting that Kakashi confirmed the whole chakra amount relations.To put an end on wild theories on that, at least.

Now, about chakra types, this was the revelation of this chapter, but also brought up sooo many questions. I couldn’t agree more on the “What's So Advanced About That?”. This is great to know, but it sure looks like something basic that everyone should know by now ( in the Naruto world ). I’m seeing a million benefits from knowing who has what kind of chakra!!! For me, this is just like personal affinities. If you have affinities for one thing, you should pursue that. There is absolutely no reason that this was not done while they wore in Ninja Academy. It just makes more sense. If a person has a chakra that belongs to a certain type, shouldn’t he/she be advised to learn jutsus and develop abilities that would take advantage of that. This has bothered me a bit, so I brought it up here… If any one has comments on this, I’d be happy to see them…

There was a few jokes in this chapter that I enjoyed as well. About the predictions, all but Itachi and Kisame are good for me!!! They could happen, but this two I don’t think so.

Anyway I’m half asleep now, cant really write more, just to add that I’ve enjoyed this review, especially the linked images. Hard work very appreciated, thanks a lot!!!!!!!!! :smile-big

jabbament
July 14, 2006, 08:47 PM
One reason why this might not have been done in the academy (actually determining what chakra type a student was), is that it is 1 teacher to say 20 students.

The Ninja Academy is there to teach Ninja's the basics, such as:

Basic chakra control, genin level techniques, taijutsu, stamina training, kunai/shuriken throwing, other ninja stuff, and general world knowledge.

1 teacher teaching 20 students about the different chakra types and then trying to work with it seems impossible, which is why I believe that it falls onto the hands of the Jounin instructor. 1 Jounin teaching 3 kids about 3 different elements seems to make more sense than 1 teacher teaching 20 students 5. Jounin's have more 1 on 1 time with students than the Academy teacher ever would. (Not to mention, quite a few Academy instructors seem to be Chuunins, and odds are a Jounin knows more techniques than the instructors do, and it'd be easier for them to help their genin with techniques and such.)

I think Ninja are expected to develop their abilities and skills on their own, with help from their Jounin instructor. Its part of the reason why the mission difficulty progresses so slowly. They might do 40 D rank missions before they do 1 C rank, and they might do 100 C before they're ready for a B rank. It all depends on the Genins and the Jounin instructor.

Gold Knight
July 14, 2006, 09:37 PM
Good points, Jabbs. Might be that the "special" paper Kakashi used to test Naruto's chakra isn't something very commonplace, either...

Yeste, glad you liked my review. :)


It was also interesting that Kakashi confirmed the whole chakra amount relations.To put an end on wild theories on that, at least.

Definitely nice to have that settled, for sure.



But, Stamina is physical stamina. If you train to the point where you can't move, you're not dead...you just have no stamina left over. :s

Not what Ebisu said. But either way, it also puts you at risk of being utterly defeated... Bah, whatever. Ever since ibra87's post about the whole subject, I've been kinda rethinking my position on it and have started to agree that it's also forbidden for more than just my reason. Who wants a Kisame running around with that jutsu?


I think its a whole balance between Stamina and Chakra. If you've been fighting, you're obviously worn out (to a point), and you'd have less chakra to work with, so using a technique that splits your chakra (or one that consumes alot), would be more difficult, and the ability to use it correctly without draining too much excess chakra becomes difficult. In that regard, I can see how using a technique that spreads your chakra out so thin could be deadly (especially with someone so bad at their chakra control).

Yeah, let's say 100% Stamina is converted into 100% Chakra being evenly distributed among 10,000 clones. Whether the original body is bereft totally of stamina or the stamina is also evenly distributed out, which I tend to doubt (since clones are easier to "kill"), the biggest risk is destroying yourself by doing any more moves.


And blargh! Don't agree with me, 'cuz you're too lazy to have your own idea. Lame, Paladin. Very lame!


I'll come up with a better idea later. Though I must say I was always happy with Naruto throwing kunai blades and the like, though.

ChuckinUpDueces
July 14, 2006, 10:23 PM
I really enjoy these comments of yours Gold Knight, very insightful. Just too throw in my 2 cents about why they don't teach "chakra affinity" at the academy, I believe it's because coming out of the Acadamy the genins are only versed in basic jutsu with very little if any chakra control. Remember that even though as genin Naruto and Sasuke were able to use high-level jutsu (ie. Kage Bunshin, GoKakyu No Jutsu) they wasted chakra whenever doing so. Knowing your affinity to develop a personal jutsu before learning the basics of chakra control would be gettin ahead of oneself. Just my thoughts on that.

As well, as far as Jutsu's that don't fall under a certain category of Fire, Wind, Water, Earth, or Lightening, it could be that combinations of these elements create sub-elements. Like with the Kagemane no Jutsu, the Earth casting a shadow from the light of the Fire, or maybe a flash of Lightning could make a shadow jutsu. With the Healing ability, possibly Water and Lightening combined creates healing jutsu, and with superstrength, possibly Earth plus Water equals huge power (sudden and catacylsmic) similiar to a Tsunami.

Another thought....is that the Mokuton Jutsu is a combination of a one in a million combination of Earth and Water Chakra Affinity. It is possible that only Yamato was able to survive the grafting of Shodai's Cells to his body because he had a chakra affinity that was compatible for augmenting the powerful influence of Shodai's special chakra, which probably killed any host who's chakra affinity was different.

I'm sure there are holes in those theories, but your comments sparked my imagination, so that's just my take.

Gold Knight
July 14, 2006, 10:54 PM
Pretty interesting thoughts there, ChuckinUpDeuces. Combo-element jutsus, eh?

Chakra affinity being necessary for Mokuton no Jutsu could explain a few things but if all it takes is an Earth/Water compatibility, I'd think others would have been able to do it. I think it's a bit more complicated than that but hey, you could be right.

white silver
July 14, 2006, 11:19 PM
[b][font=verdana][size=1]Comments accompanied by pictures! Nice work [color=red]GK,

By the way, I think they 5 elemental forms of chaka are just the main types of chakra. Others like Shikimaru's Shadow-Manipulation, Ino's Mind Transfer and such and such, are just micellaneous. You know, I'm also kind of glad the MS theory didn't turn out to be because it would've been way to predictable (or is Kishimoto one of our "secret" members here).

Wow, Kage Bunshin Training. I guess that Kakashi and Yamato would have ONE big puzzle, scattered to 1000 piecees so that each of Naruto's bunshins could come and reassemble it again. Different training methods per each user. Maybe Naruto would learn more techniques this way. Hey, it's a trial-and-error program. Eventually he'll invent lots of jutsus and then end up with the true form of "THAT JUTSU". By the way, do you think "that jutsu" would be incorporated into the his training regimen?

Raine_Joybringer
July 15, 2006, 12:13 AM
^.^ Yay! Well, here I am to add my views! (Hehe, this feels like it’s part of my schedule to do every week, but it’s fun still)

1. I was sad about the lack of chapter cover at first, but you don’t need a cover to make a Naruto chapter great! Chapter covers are more like fan-service (not the panty kind!). However, I regard the insight into chakra as this chapter’s fan-service which is more than enough for me. (Whoo, more answers for my “research”)

2. I am so very glad it wasn’t going to be an MS technique... I think I was one of the few people who didn’t believe that theory for a second. It’s too dangerous for a start, what with Kakashi having a pretty off-aim... You also notice his eyes in the chapter still have a bit of a dark wrinkle to them. He’s still not totally up to strength. Tsunade would have killed him if he tried. I’m happy to see that Naruto will be putting some good use to his kage bunshins for something other than fighting this time around.

3. I’ve always suspected it too. There had to be some kind of extra benefits to the kage bunshin other than just making extra bodies for the enemy to pummel. It’s good to see that it’s confirmed now. There must be different effects with different types of bunshin. Yamato’s mokuton bunshin doesn’t quite seem to be like the normal kinds as Yamato absorbs it back up. I can’t quite remember, but I don’t think it goes ‘poof’ like a cloud. Correct me if I’m wrong though.

4. Ah, sweet, sweet irony... I laughed when Naruto was having that small celebration at winning.

5. Everyone’s been giving the old pervert a bad rapt for his training with Naruto over the past 2 and half years. But now we see what he had to work with so we can’t really blame him... I kinda feel sorry for Naruto’s teachers and what they have to put up with. Explaining things to Naruto is like talking to a brick wall in some respects, so it’s better to show him. However, with a type of training like with this one coming up, giving a demonstration will be hard so Naruto’s really going to have to work hard to compensate. It’s a good thing he’s able to pick things up once he gets moving though.

6. What can I say other than ‘I’m really excited!’ over this? That’s one of my favourite double-spreads as well. I hope we get to see mock-bunshin wars (reminds me of the Clone War thing from Star Wars for some reason). It’d be utter and complete chaos I think (hehe). I’m getting funny visions in my head about what would happen if Hinata just happened to be walking past...

7. The reason why the kage bunshin was forbidden always confused me. But the reason it could drain the user is a pretty good reason. Then again, it could have been forbidden for the reason that anyone with a high chakra limit would be able to create their own personal army. If that person was strong enough, it’s possible they’d be able to decimate an entire village. The prospects of the kage bunshin can be rather frightening.

8. Yamato’s back! I’m a happy fangirl :D

9. Shikamaru once commented that he created ‘specialised chakra’. I think that along with healing and puppets, that falls under ‘altering its shape’ rather than nature. However, Kakashi said that these five types are the basis for chakra types. Healing could possibly be categorised under water. Shikamaru’s is rather a strange one though. It could be that he changes the shape of his chakra to command shadows, rather than change the nature of his chakra of that into a shadow. I think it’s the first kind, since he uses his own shadow and thus is restricted to it.

I’m wondering why this hasn’t been like this earlier, and why there seems to have been no sign of such testing whilst the kids were in the training academy. You’d think the first thing you’d want to do when kids enter is test for their strengths for optimum results.

I also wonder that if someone has an affinity for a certain type, does that make them more able to cope with it? Like if Kakashi is hit by a lighting-type attack, is he able to recover from it more easily. Hm... more questions to be answered... And I need that one too for my story.

10. Actually, I’ve always suspected Naruto of being a wind-element. Ever since I read a fanfic called ‘Foxhound’ it went into this kind of thing exactly (kind of scares me now in thinking the person who wrote it is psychic! XD Haha), and it said that Naruto was a wind element kind of guy. ^.^ I’m happy over this though.

fremeer
July 15, 2006, 01:13 AM
also i think chakra type comes into effect only when your making a jutsu or learning a b+ level jutsu since most low level jutsu's are just chakra manipulation. Now that naruto's chakra manipulation is very good he now needs to learn how to effectively change the chakra's nature. Also in all fairness calling naruto dumb isnt fair because not easily understanding a concept when explained doesnt make u any less talented. If i told you that to kick a soccer ball with power and low to the ground you need to place your supporting foot in line with the ball while leaning forward and then after the kick try to put the weight on your kicking foot its sounds pretty complex, but as soon as you are shown it, it makes more sense. naruto's is the show me how its done not the explain to me how its done.

Paranoid
July 15, 2006, 03:57 AM
Regarding the danger of the chakra split between bunshins.

It's true that you'll never reach 0 stamina, (You'd need to make an infinite amount of bunshins) but you don't really need to reach precisely 0 to die, don't take ebisu's words 100% literally.

Our bodies use a lot of energy just to simply function, so for a normal person(average stamina) in the naruto world even making 1 bunshin(50% reduction) might seriously compromise his vitals, and the bunshin's as well.

Make 2, and there won't be enough juice left for the heart or the respiratory muscles to work.

LEt's say the baseline energy consumption is around 100, and that's only for doing NOTHING.
To live we need that 100%, and everything on top of it allows us to do all sorts of activities, but only up to a limit. Our bodies have self-limitations (8 gates? :D) that prevent us from harming ourselves, but kage bunshin simply bypasses that.

Kage bunshin is for ninjas with high chakra capacity, and even then it's quite dangerous if you don't know your limit.

kadoman
July 15, 2006, 03:59 AM
You realise GK that your comments page has its own little fan club? :D We all look forward to your comments each week but since I agree with practically everything you've said for the past few weeks, I haven't had much to comment on other than YES! and, that's exactly right! and, 'go GK! You rock! :D

All I can add to what you've already said is that I think Kishi exposed his own writing snag in having them work out Naruto's element just now. It's blatantly obvious that given the boy's special condition and importance, this is something that common sense would dictate they considered finding out a long time ago. It only takes a few seconds apparently and is a very simple task.

To me, that is a very big sign that Kishimoto made up this section of the story on the spot with little regard to all that has gone on previously. Obviously writers make things up on the spot all the time, nothing wrong with that, but I have a feeling Kishi has been doing this more than usual lately and it's beginning to show.

Although I liked the chapter overall, it's little things like 'only just finding out his element now', that take away a bit of credibility from the story - for me anyway. Don't get me wrong, I realise that Naruto is often a logic-free zone (goes with the genre and is half the fun anyway) but I just feel a little bit of cynacism creeping in.

ibra87
July 15, 2006, 04:15 AM
p0rn! ( Should've said "couch" there, but I knew what you meant. XD )
Guess I've watched too much football in the not-too-distant past :shakefist


My favorite weapon are tonfa (aka a police baton/nightstick), and I think it'd totally own to see Naruto usin' 2 of them.


Oh well, I'll go with what you suggested then, tonfa would be just as cool with me.

I really can't imagine Naruto having two tonfas :p He can hardly use kunais and shurikens, and I think it's too late for the likes of Naruto to learn how to wield such weapons. As far as I know the 4th didn't seem to have any special weapon (other than the kunai with the seal on) so I doubt that Naruto will either. You know, he already has Rasengan :narsengan

jabbament
July 15, 2006, 07:32 AM
Well, how else is Naruto going to counter Sasuke's sword? Kunai and such don't work against it, and unless Naruto can match Rasengan for Sasuke's swing or match Sasuke's speed, he's already at a huge disadvantage. :s

And eh, I don't agree really with the kunai/shuriken thing. He is just more of a straight taijutsu user than anything else really, though he does use Shuriken/Kunai alot...and for real Ninjas, things like that were used for distractions, since a Shuriken can't kill (though, a Kunai can if it hits a vital).

And Naruto not having time to learn how to weild tonfa? Sure he does. 1,000 clones + 2,000 wooden Tonfa (made by Yamato himself) = 1 week of tonfa training where Naruto gains 20 years of practice.



And about the entire "not knowing his elemental until now", I don't know. The Academy only teaches the basics that every Ninja needs to know.

The only way to combat the inability of 1 teacher to train 20 students in 5 different elements is to split classes via the students elemental alignment. If that was done, then the teacher would be able to do basic training for the element as well...though, if that were done, the entire story of Naruto would be different, as Naruto and Sasuke are different elementals.

Oh, and one more reason why they might not bother with finding out the childs element is, Genins aren't supposed to have enough chakra for ninjutsu (http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1298/naruto709yk5.jpg). (And I wouldn't consider that an "advanced jutsu" at all. Its the Uchiha's staple jutsu, and the basis for more advanced variations)

Sasuke and Naruto are freaks...one genius from the Uchiha clan and 1 boy with a demon inside him. Most genin won't be able to use much chakra until they're older/more experienced, etc. So, why bother trying to teach them things they won't be able to actively practice at that age?

Yet another reason why I believe it falls on the shoulders of the Jounin instructors, and the same reason why I called Kakashi a slacker. :p

Gold Knight
July 15, 2006, 10:32 AM
[b][font=verdana][size=1]Wow, Kage Bunshin Training. I guess that Kakashi and Yamato would have ONE big puzzle, scattered to 1000 piecees so that each of Naruto's bunshins could come and reassemble it again. Different training methods per each user. Maybe Naruto would learn more techniques this way. Hey, it's a trial-and-error program. Eventually he'll invent lots of jutsus and then end up with the true form of "THAT JUTSU". By the way, do you think "that jutsu" would be incorporated into the his training regimen?


You might be onto something - I can see each of the thousand Narutos doing a different aspect of the training, but it'd take all day just to tell each one what to do, I'd think... unless Kakashi and Yamato came prepared and had a bucket full of little "notes," each with a different command on them, to pass to all of them.

When you refer to "THAT jutsu," you're referring to the jutsu that Jiraiya warned Naruto not to use? I do believe now that he was warning against Naruto changing into the Four-Tails back then (since that's what had nearly killed him and probably made him worry the most about him).



^.^ Yay! Well, here I am to add my views! (Hehe, this feels like it’s part of my schedule to do every week, but it’s fun still)

XD


1. I was sad about the lack of chapter cover at first, but you don’t need a cover to make a Naruto chapter great! Chapter covers are more like fan-service (not the panty kind!). However, I regard the insight into chakra as this chapter’s fan-service which is more than enough for me. (Whoo, more answers for my “research”)

I thought you'd get a kick out of learning more about chakra in this chapter, for sure.


2. I am so very glad it wasn’t going to be an MS technique... I think I was one of the few people who didn’t believe that theory for a second. It’s too dangerous for a start, what with Kakashi having a pretty off-aim... You also notice his eyes in the chapter still have a bit of a dark wrinkle to them. He’s still not totally up to strength. Tsunade would have killed him if he tried. I’m happy to see that Naruto will be putting some good use to his kage bunshins for something other than fighting this time around.

Didn't notice Kakashi having "dark wrinkles," I think that's just Kishimoto's style on drawing his eyes? But yeah, you're right though - it'd be insane if Kakashi went and got out of bed from a heavy usage of the MS just to do it over again. Another reason I didn't want the MS. He's not that reckless.


3. I’ve always suspected it too. There had to be some kind of extra benefits to the kage bunshin other than just making extra bodies for the enemy to pummel. It’s good to see that it’s confirmed now. There must be different effects with different types of bunshin. Yamato’s mokuton bunshin doesn’t quite seem to be like the normal kinds as Yamato absorbs it back up. I can’t quite remember, but I don’t think it goes ‘poof’ like a cloud. Correct me if I’m wrong though.

Yeah, Yamato's mokuton bunshin just "freezes" and turns back into inanimate wood, like the one that fell to the ground after Orochimaru's snakes tried to bite him (http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8150/v33ch29012zg4.png). So, yes, bunshins are definitely different depending on the "element" they're built with - Sai's bunshins melted into ink, too (http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8616/v33ch297ukpage04tn8.png).

Whoever created the Tajū Kage Bunshin no Jutsu must have done something extra in order to make the "actual bodies" disappear like clouds because, hey, who wants to see a thousand duplicates of themselves lying around, bleeding to death? I know I wouldn't... xD


4. Ah, sweet, sweet irony... I laughed when Naruto was having that small celebration at winning.

Too bad it wasn't Gai, though, I'm sure he would have taken even more immense pleasure out of it, knowing he wouldn't have to run around the village on his hands all day.


5. Everyone’s been giving the old pervert a bad rapt for his training with Naruto over the past 2 and half years. But now we see what he had to work with so we can’t really blame him... I kinda feel sorry for Naruto’s teachers and what they have to put up with. Explaining things to Naruto is like talking to a brick wall in some respects, so it’s better to show him. However, with a type of training like with this one coming up, giving a demonstration will be hard so Naruto’s really going to have to work hard to compensate. It’s a good thing he’s able to pick things up once he gets moving though.

Yeah, I think we're all about to see Kakashi gain some respect for Naruto - I don't really think Kakashi's ever witnessed Naruto "at work" before. This is the kid who successfully learned a powerful jutsu from the Forbidden Scroll in less than a night, after all.


6. What can I say other than ‘I’m really excited!’ over this? That’s one of my favourite double-spreads as well. I hope we get to see mock-bunshin wars (reminds me of the Clone War thing from Star Wars for some reason). It’d be utter and complete chaos I think (hehe). I’m getting funny visions in my head about what would happen if Hinata just happened to be walking past...

Hinata would be so starry-eyed... >.> :hinata ( ...er, is it just me, or is she massagin.... never mind.)


7. The reason why the kage bunshin was forbidden always confused me. But the reason it could drain the user is a pretty good reason. Then again, it could have been forbidden for the reason that anyone with a high chakra limit would be able to create their own personal army. If that person was strong enough, it’s possible they’d be able to decimate an entire village. The prospects of the kage bunshin can be rather frightening.

Yeah, I guess that's enough reasons for the durned thing to be off-limits XD ...Even though I doubt there's that many shinobis in the world with endless chakra like Naruto ( Kisame would be one, tho. )


8. Yamato’s back! I’m a happy fangirl :D

I'm also a happy fan...er, boy! >.> * By the way, if anybody can make a Yamato smiley, I'll gladly upload it ^^ *


9. Shikamaru once commented that he created ‘specialised chakra’. I think that along with healing and puppets, that falls under ‘altering its shape’ rather than nature. However, Kakashi said that these five types are the basis for chakra types. Healing could possibly be categorised under water. Shikamaru’s is rather a strange one though. It could be that he changes the shape of his chakra to command shadows, rather than change the nature of his chakra of that into a shadow. I think it’s the first kind, since he uses his own shadow and thus is restricted to it.

I kinda liked ChuckinUpDueces's theory there. Quoting him here, "Like with the Kagemane no Jutsu, the Earth casting a shadow from the light of the Fire, or maybe a flash of Lightning could make a shadow jutsu." The Japanese love poetry-sounding stuff like that, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was something like that.


I’m wondering why this hasn’t been like this earlier, and why there seems to have been no sign of such testing whilst the kids were in the training academy. You’d think the first thing you’d want to do when kids enter is test for their strengths for optimum results.

Exactly my sentiments!


I also wonder that if someone has an affinity for a certain type, does that make them more able to cope with it? Like if Kakashi is hit by a lighting-type attack, is he able to recover from it more easily. Hm... more questions to be answered... And I need that one too for my story.

Perhaps we'll find out if Kakashi ever has to deal with Sasuke again, but that's an interesting question.


10. Actually, I’ve always suspected Naruto of being a wind-element. Ever since I read a fanfic called ‘Foxhound’ it went into this kind of thing exactly (kind of scares me now in thinking the person who wrote it is psychic! XD Haha), and it said that Naruto was a wind element kind of guy. ^.^ I’m happy over this though.


Yep... I don't mind it myself.

And mind you, people, wind is a VERY formidable weapon. If you've ever played or read Suikoden III, you'll understand why I say that. Here's a quote from Luc, the Rune Bearer of Wind and the bad guy: "Wind isn't just used to blow things around. It also controls the air pressure, and creates the atmosphere around you." All the while he's being Darth Vader-like, suffocating a guy to death. (Not that I ever want to see Naruto do this, but just saying, Wind is gonna be kickass.)



also i think chakra type comes into effect only when your making a jutsu or learning a b+ level jutsu since most low level jutsu's are just chakra manipulation. Now that naruto's chakra manipulation is very good he now needs to learn how to effectively change the chakra's nature. Also in all fairness calling naruto dumb isnt fair because not easily understanding a concept when explained doesnt make u any less talented. If i told you that to kick a soccer ball with power and low to the ground you need to place your supporting foot in line with the ball while leaning forward and then after the kick try to put the weight on your kicking foot its sounds pretty complex, but as soon as you are shown it, it makes more sense. naruto's is the show me how its done not the explain to me how its done.


I agree that Naruto isn't "dumb" - he's just more "wise" than "intelligent" (which often happens). He can't figure out the answer to the mathematics question, but he can give you a straight-out answer when you ask him what you're doing wrong with your life. And like you said, he's pretty quick to pick up on the "what to do" when he understands the "how to."



Regarding the danger of the chakra split between bunshins.

It's true that you'll never reach 0 stamina, (You'd need to make an infinite amount of bunshins) but you don't really need to reach precisely 0 to die, don't take ebisu's words 100% literally.

Our bodies use a lot of energy just to simply function, so for a normal person(average stamina) in the naruto world even making 1 bunshin(50% reduction) might seriously compromise his vitals, and the bunshin's as well.

Make 2, and there won't be enough juice left for the heart or the respiratory muscles to work.

LEt's say the baseline energy consumption is around 100, and that's only for doing NOTHING.
To live we need that 100%, and everything on top of it allows us to do all sorts of activities, but only up to a limit. Our bodies have self-limitations (8 gates? :D) that prevent us from harming ourselves, but kage bunshin simply bypasses that.

Kage bunshin is for ninjas with high chakra capacity, and even then it's quite dangerous if you don't know your limit.


That's a good way to put it, Paranoid. Yeah, maybe that's what Ebisu meant. :thumbs



You realise GK that your comments page has its own little fan club? :D We all look forward to your comments each week but since I agree with practically everything you've said for the past few weeks, I haven't had much to comment on other than YES! and, that's exactly right! and, 'go GK! You rock! :D

YAY! My own groupies! XD


All I can add to what you've already said is that I think Kishi exposed his own writing snag in having them work out Naruto's element just now. It's blatantly obvious that given the boy's special condition and importance, this is something that common sense would dictate they considered finding out a long time ago. It only takes a few seconds apparently and is a very simple task.

To me, that is a very big sign that Kishimoto made up this section of the story on the spot with little regard to all that has gone on previously. Obviously writers make things up on the spot all the time, nothing wrong with that, but I have a feeling Kishi has been doing this more than usual lately and it's beginning to show.

Although I liked the chapter overall, it's little things like 'only just finding out his element now', that take away a bit of credibility from the story - for me anyway. Don't get me wrong, I realise that Naruto is often a logic-free zone (goes with the genre and is half the fun anyway) but I just feel a little bit of cynacism creeping in.

Hear, hear. Heck, I could shrug it off and think up plenty of explanations for why it hasn't been mentioned until now (and in fact plenty of people have done that, Jabbament has a particularly good excuse for him below), but I still feel kind of cheated all the same. Or rather, I feel Naruto has been cheated. But oh well, at least the cat's out of the bag now, if nothing else.



Guess I've watched too much football in the not-too-distant past :shakefist

LoL... xD It was a funny little mistake. But yeah, I wouldn't want another "Ten-Ten on Couch"-like cover either.


I really can't imagine Naruto having two tonfas :p He can hardly use kunais and shurikens, and I think it's too late for the likes of Naruto to learn how to wield such weapons. As far as I know the 4th didn't seem to have any special weapon (other than the kunai with the seal on) so I doubt that Naruto will either. You know, he already has Rasengan :narsengan


I don't think it would be too late, but I kinda can't see Naruto wielding such weapons either. He'd look more like an authority figure, and I don't think Kishimoto would want to give him that impression.



Well, how else is Naruto going to counter Sasuke's sword? Kunai and such don't work against it, and unless Naruto can match Rasengan for Sasuke's swing or match Sasuke's speed, he's already at a huge disadvantage. :s

Yeah, good question. That's why I said bo staff, which I would be more comfortable using against something like that, really, than a pair of tonfa (long range > short range against something for me). But I can't see Naruto using a sword, either, so...


And eh, I don't agree really with the kunai/shuriken thing. He is just more of a straight taijutsu user than anything else really, though he does use Shuriken/Kunai alot...and for real Ninjas, things like that were used for distractions, since a Shuriken can't kill (though, a Kunai can if it hits a vital).

Remember the huge one he summoned and then threw against Sasori's Hiruko puppet that its tail slapped aside? Of course, Iruka got away with minor injuries after getting hit by one squarely in the back, so maybe that wouldn't be fatal, either... xD

(Somehow, I think I would have died, tho...)


And Naruto not having time to learn how to weild tonfa? Sure he does. 1,000 clones + 2,000 wooden Tonfa (made by Yamato himself) = 1 week of tonfa training where Naruto gains 20 years of practice.


Yeah.. he could master every type of weapon now if he wanted to ( but I think he could only do that with Yamato around, tho... )



And about the entire "not knowing his elemental until now", I don't know. The Academy only teaches the basics that every Ninja needs to know.

The only way to combat the inability of 1 teacher to train 20 students in 5 different elements is to split classes via the students elemental alignment. If that was done, then the teacher would be able to do basic training for the element as well...though, if that were done, the entire story of Naruto would be different, as Naruto and Sasuke are different elementals.

Oh, and one more reason why they might not bother with finding out the childs element is, Genins aren't supposed to have enough chakra for ninjutsu (http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1298/naruto709yk5.jpg). (And I wouldn't consider that an "advanced jutsu" at all. Its the Uchiha's staple jutsu, and the basis for more advanced variations)

Sasuke and Naruto are freaks...one genius from the Uchiha clan and 1 boy with a demon inside him. Most genin won't be able to use much chakra until they're older/more experienced, etc. So, why bother trying to teach them things they won't be able to actively practice at that age?

Yet another reason why I believe it falls on the shoulders of the Jounin instructors, and the same reason why I called Kakashi a slacker. :p


That's the best explanation I've heard so far, but I still don't agree with Kakashi being called a "slacker." XD Or rather, I do definitely think it was out of character for him not to make sure his kids knew something as basic as that!

kadoman
July 15, 2006, 10:50 AM
And about the entire "not knowing his elemental until now", I don't know. The Academy only teaches the basics that every Ninja needs to know.

Yeah, just echoing GK here.

Finding out your element seems to be pretty 'basic' to me. At least the way Kakashi was talking it certainly seemed that way. Nothing incredibly complicated about it. Just ya know, hold up yer little piece of paper, click your heels and think of home type of thing. Also, if knowing what must be an integral part of your whole lil' ninja being isn't the most important of all the basics, then I don't know what is.

But Jabba, I do like your explanation (the second one). It's the best one I've come across; in fact it is so good, I doubt very much that Kishi thought of it that way! Haha! I honestly believe Kishi just made it up and chucked it in there to serve a future purpose that he also belatedly thought up. Still, your explanation makes for good reading!

Raine_Joybringer
July 15, 2006, 11:57 AM
And mind you, people, wind is a VERY formidable weapon. If you've ever played or read Suikoden III, you'll understand why I say that. Here's a quote from Luc, the Rune Bearer of Wind and the bad guy: "Wind isn't just used to blow things around. It also controls the air pressure, and creates the atmosphere around you." All the while he's being Darth Vader-like, suffocating a guy to death. (Not that I ever want to see Naruto do this, but just saying, Wind is gonna be kickass.)


Yeah, I think that Wind is probably the most powerful element in the whole Naruto universe. There's really no way to counter it. I actually read someone say something along the lines of 'If the Suna council didn't feel Gaara was the best candidate for Kazekage, they would have picked Temari'. In some respects she is one of the more powerful shinobi in the series. I'm sure many of the jounins would have a hell of a hard time dealing with her.

ibra87
July 15, 2006, 12:09 PM
Yeah, I think that Wind is probably the most powerful element in the whole Naruto universe. There's really no way to counter it. I actually read someone say something along the lines of 'If the Suna council didn't feel Gaara was the best candidate for Kazekage, they would have picked Temari'. In some respects she is one of the more powerful shinobi in the series. I'm sure many of the jounins would have a hell of a hard time dealing with her.

Try playing some Final Fantasy, you'd know earth can. If someone fires a wind blast at you, make an earth barrier or so. Or borrow Orochimaru's gates O_o Why wasnt Naruto Ice, why? =( I miss Haku

kunai-knight
July 15, 2006, 01:02 PM
Well, the theory behind Kage Bunshin is that the chakra is split between each clone (which is a real body). If 1 clone drained his chakra, the clone would "die" and disappear. As long as the real Naruto doesn't use up his remaining chakra, he wouldn't die.

By the way, that was supposed to read (I'm high, so shaddup, Paladin!):

Kakashi Chakra = 25,000
Naruto Chakra = 50,000

If Naruto created 1,000 clones and had 50 chakra (yeah, back to the numbers) left over, he wouldn't die...he'd be dangerously low on chakra, but it wouldn't kill him. If he doubled the number of clones, all that would happen is that each would have 25 chakra and wouldn't be able to do anything but taijutsu (since Naruto is horrible at his chakra control :p).

No matter how many times you split 1 number, you'll never hit 0. Divide 1 into 1,000,000 pieces, and its still not zero. 0.0000001 > 0. And 0.0000001 isn't 0% when it comes to numbers. Its extremely miniscule, but its still greater than 0.



What you say is true, unless doing everyday things like breathing require chakra.


Kakashi Chakra = 25,000

So lets say that after kakashi shadow clones 1000 KB, then kakashi would have just 25 chakra left. But lets it takes 5 chakra to do the action of breathing, then after 5 breaths kakashi's chakra's all gone. Just a thought on how it'd kill ya

Gold Knight
July 15, 2006, 02:56 PM
Yeah, I think that Wind is probably the most powerful element in the whole Naruto universe. There's really no way to counter it. I actually read someone say something along the lines of 'If the Suna council didn't feel Gaara was the best candidate for Kazekage, they would have picked Temari'. In some respects she is one of the more powerful shinobi in the series. I'm sure many of the jounins would have a hell of a hard time dealing with her.


Yep, Tayuya can probably vouch for that... I wouldn't want to fight Temari without a pre-planned strategy at all. (But I don't want to fight her... :love )



Try playing some Final Fantasy, you'd know earth can. If someone fires a wind blast at you, make an earth barrier or so. Or borrow Orochimaru's gates O_o Why wasnt Naruto Ice, why? =( I miss Haku


Guess if Hayate had it to do all over again, he'd have learned more Earth jutsus, then, 'cause he sure didn't stand a chance against Baku's "Blade of Wind...!" (http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/61/naruto11208el9.jpg)

I still think Wind is more formidable than Earth, though. Wind can even use Earth to its advantage; a dislodged flying rock is all it takes to knock somebody out.

ibra87
July 15, 2006, 03:05 PM
Guess if Hayate had it to do all over again, he'd have learned more Earth jutsus, then, 'cause he sure didn't stand a chance against Baku's "Blade of Wind...!" (http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/61/naruto11208el9.jpg)

^^ True, weird how sand ninjas use wind. A wind of blade can be stopped by no one? I guess no one plays RPGs these days, damn.



I still think Wind is more formidable than Earth, though. Wind can even use Earth to its advantage; a dislodged flying rock is all it takes to knock somebody out.




Well that's true, as long as it's some kind of weak Earth jutsu, but at Naruto's level, he might summon rocks so big it's impossible for some wind to move it. Heck, he might even dig up a whole mountain or lift the earth itself.
But the "A wind blade can be stopped by no one"... I wonder if that's true.


EDIT: I just saw this picture which someone cleaned for the colorists to color instead of the missing cover. Yondaime holding leafs in his hand and seeing them fly away (http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/6580/yondaimevector38io.jpg) This might have been a clue to Naruto's element (and possibly Yondaime's), but then again it might not.

gold roger
July 15, 2006, 04:56 PM
Yes, those comments of yours are quite nice to read and recap the chapters. Keep up the good work.

Now, some comments I'd like to add to those things already said here:

Why Kagebunshin is considered forbidden/dangerous
I think the best point to look here is when the third hokage battles Orochimaru and one of the Anbu asks why he doesn't use Kagebunshin. The reason is that for even a hokage level shinobi, one inconsiderate use of Kagebunshin can spell doom.
Think about it, everytime you use kagebunshin you split your chakra among yourself and all your kopies. With one strike your chakra capacity for other jutsu's is halfed or worse. And even worse, whenever you dismiss a kagebunshin or it is killed you don't get that chakra back.
Unless you're a chakra monster like Naruto or Kisame, kagebunshin can reduce your chakra capacity in no time. For most ninjas using kagebunshin is an extreme gamble and takes a massive amount of forethought, consideration and planning. Any ninja that can't gauge his own abilities and capacities flawlessly will screw himself in no time by using kagebunshin. Teaching Kagebunshin to most shinobi (almost anybody non-anbu) would cause more damage than worth it.

Foreplanning and why didn't we know about the chakra types
I've got two viewpoints on this. One is in manga and one out of manga.

First in manga:
1) It seems knowledge of this principle isn't really needed until you start creating your own jutsu, something generally not done before Jounin/anbu status, if at all.

2) Thos "chakra-papers" are propably damn rare. Giving one to every chunin may simply be not possible.

3) Naruto is so dense when it comes to theory, he may have been taught trice at the akademy and again four times by Jiraya and was so distracted/not getting it/desinterested/forgetfull/etc. about it, it had to be repeated on him.

Out-of-manga:
I'm no de-facto expert on creative writing and the manga industry. However, I do have a small bit of expertise in story and world creation (from a very involved look into the principles of DMing rpgs, through creative writing classes to reading the thoughts and theories of actual experts in those areas).

Yeah, I think Kishimoto and his team have definitely had each their own thoughts on how creating a new jutsu works, but until naruto had to create a new jutsu on screen in the manga, those thoughts have never been defined (nor should they have been. One important rule of creative work is not to have anything written in stone until you have to. This prevents bournout and creative corners). So now the process had to be defined, a definition was found, but it was found for the process to be understood by the audience, some of the most basic elements of chakra had to be explained, elements that haven't been explained earlier.

So a solution had to be found for this. The three ways would have been:

1) Not showing the creation of the new jutsu at all, which would have been cheating and would have greatly angered the audience,

2) Finding another process to jutsu-developement. But it's a fact that there simply wasn't enough info on chakra earlier to have it so that some extremely basic principle wouldn't have been needed to be explained.

So that leaves only number 3) Brushing it over.

I guess here it's convenient that manga heroes can quite often be of the dense, non-scholary, unfocused type (especially naruto ><). The reader will often need explainations for stuff that everyone in the world/of the important characters should know. Further this has to be done in a way that even a not very clever 12 year old can easily understand it. So, yeah, unless a manga includes it's character's complete basic education or drops a character into a for him unknown world, those passages can seem pretty plothole-a-riffic at times.

Of course Kakashi could have just asked Naruto about his time at the akademy and what he remembers about the nature of chakra, but at this point it would have been out of character for him to do anything other than draw blank (hell, he didn't even know what chakra was when he became genin). And I guess there wasn't space for the panels of Kakashi asking and naruto drawing blank.

Yeah, such plot-holes and overexplanation can be frustrating, but that's what we get for reading something that has 13-15 year olds of every education as part of it's target audience.

Gold Knight
July 15, 2006, 05:31 PM
^^ True, weird how sand ninjas use wind. A wind of blade can be stopped by no one? I guess no one plays RPGs these days, damn.

I'm not too surprised by sand ninjas using wind, since they can use it to conjure up sandstorms and the like to cover for them.


Well that's true, as long as it's some kind of weak Earth jutsu, but at Naruto's level, he might summon rocks so big it's impossible for some wind to move it. Heck, he might even dig up a whole mountain or lift the earth itself.
But the "A wind blade can be stopped by no one"... I wonder if that's true.

Heh... since Kishimoto backed out of making Baku a villain and instead more of a supporting character, I have a feeling in this case Baku wasn't just bragging. But I know ONE weapon that probably stopped it. What, you ask?

None other than Genma's toothpick!

Okay, just kidding, but I do wonder how Genma survived his battle with Baku. ^_^


EDIT: I just saw this picture which someone cleaned for the colorists to color instead of the missing cover. Yondaime holding leafs in his hand and seeing them fly away (http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/6580/yondaimevector38io.jpg) This might have been a clue to Naruto's element (and possibly Yondaime's), but then again it might not.


That was cool of zero_absoluto to find that, yeah, that should give the colorists something fun to do. ^_^



Yes, those comments of yours are quite nice to read and recap the chapters. Keep up the good work.

Thanks, I'll try ^^



Why Kagebunshin is considered forbidden/dangerous
I think the best point to look here is when the third hokage battles Orochimaru and one of the Anbu asks why he doesn't use Kagebunshin. The reason is that for even a hokage level shinobi, one inconsiderate use of Kagebunshin can spell doom.
Think about it, everytime you use kagebunshin you split your chakra among yourself and all your kopies. With one strike your chakra capacity for other jutsu's is halfed or worse. And even worse, whenever you dismiss a kagebunshin or it is killed you don't get that chakra back.
Unless you're a chakra monster like Naruto or Kisame, kagebunshin can reduce your chakra capacity in no time. For most ninjas using kagebunshin is an extreme gamble and takes a massive amount of forethought, consideration and planning. Any ninja that can't gauge his own abilities and capacities flawlessly will screw himself in no time by using kagebunshin. Teaching Kagebunshin to most shinobi (almost anybody non-anbu) would cause more damage than worth it.

Good points there. I really don't have anything more to add to what you already said.


Foreplanning and why didn't we know about the chakra types
I've got two viewpoints on this. One is in manga and one out of manga.

First in manga:
1) It seems knowledge of this principle isn't really needed until you start creating your own jutsu, something generally not done before Jounin/anbu status, if at all.

2) Thos "chakra-papers" are propably damn rare. Giving one to every chunin may simply be not possible.

3) Naruto is so dense when it comes to theory, he may have been taught trice at the akademy and again four times by Jiraya and was so distracted/not getting it/desinterested/forgetfull/etc. about it, it had to be repeated on him.

Out-of-manga:
I'm no de-facto expert on creative writing and the manga industry. However, I do have a small bit of expertise in story and world creation (from a very involved look into the principles of DMing rpgs, through creative writing classes to reading the thoughts and theories of actual experts in those areas).

Yeah, I think Kishimoto and his team have definitely had each their own thoughts on how creating a new jutsu works, but until naruto had to create a new jutsu on screen in the manga, those thoughts have never been defined (nor should they have been. One important rule of creative work is not to have anything written in stone until you have to. This prevents bournout and creative corners). So now the process had to be defined, a definition was found, but it was found for the process to be understood by the audience, some of the most basic elements of chakra had to be explained, elements that haven't been explained earlier.

So a solution had to be found for this. The three ways would have been:

1) Not showing the creation of the new jutsu at all, which would have been cheating and would have greatly angered the audience,

2) Finding another process to jutsu-developement. But it's a fact that there simply wasn't enough info on chakra earlier to have it so that some extremely basic principle wouldn't have been needed to be explained.

So that leaves only number 3) Brushing it over.

I guess here it's convenient that manga heroes can quite often be of the dense, non-scholary, unfocused type (especially naruto ><). The reader will often need explainations for stuff that everyone in the world/of the important characters should know. Further this has to be done in a way that even a not very clever 12 year old can easily understand it. So, yeah, unless a manga includes it's character's complete basic education or drops a character into a for him unknown world, those passages can seem pretty plothole-a-riffic at times.

Of course Kakashi could have just asked Naruto about his time at the akademy and what he remembers about the nature of chakra, but at this point it would have been out of character for him to do anything other than draw blank (hell, he didn't even know what chakra was when he became genin). And I guess there wasn't space for the panels of Kakashi asking and naruto drawing blank.

Yeah, such plot-holes and overexplanation can be frustrating, but that's what we get for reading something that has 13-15 year olds of every education as part of it's target audience.


Yeah, I can understand it from the writer's perspective. The thing that bothers me the most about it is how this particular chapter was written. I think there had to be a better way of introducing this concept somehow - at the very least, there could have been some mention of this already being mentioned before but Naruto just glossed it over. The way the whole thing was introduced, I felt like Kakashi was an incompetent teacher to have waited until now to mention it.

fremeer
July 15, 2006, 08:34 PM
well the paper is quite rare since they need to use special trees to make it. I can understand them not doing it at the academy since only 9 ppl out of the 20+ pass the exam. Maybe kakashi just didnt think they were ready, ie he last got to train naruto way back b4 the chuunin exam began and hasnt really had too much time since. Back then naruto didnt have the control to really need to tell him his element. I wonder if you have side elements like hxh(i know its been said b4 but in all fairness i remember this from another manga as well) since it makes alot of sense. Something like this http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9240/narutoelementdt6.th.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=narutoelementdt6.jpg)
Of course it depends on the person but in general i think ur really good at one thing and then good at two things while the other two u suck at. Also out of the two you could possibly be more adept at one of em compared to the other but the difference would never be as extreme as it would be for the two you suck at. The way i see it is naruto is wind, but closely linked to water while having some of fire(due his nature and him wanting to be hokage). The other two lightning and earth i just dont see naruto doing since lightning is a sasuke/kakashi trait and earth so never being showed by any cept the stone. I think we see naruto start of with wind but branch out as the series goes further.

Gold Knight
July 15, 2006, 08:40 PM
That's an interesting chart and I wouldn't be surprised at all if you're right, although I still hope that Naruto would be able to do all of the other elements as well.

sabyr
July 16, 2006, 09:45 PM
Hm, can't say I know what I'd like for Naruto's weapons to be, but I agree I hope it wouldn't be some sort of sword. And I was joking about the fans. But I wouldn't mind if Naruto had some sort of bo staff.


That would be a huge rip-off of Avatar: The Last Airbender though. An air elemental with a bo-staff, and an air-monk with a bo-staff... Isn't that hard to see the similarities.

jabbament
July 16, 2006, 10:36 PM
I somehow don't think Kishimoto (a guy who writes one of, if not THE, most popular manga out there) watches, "Avatar: The Last Airbender" (a crappy American "anime").

A Ninja with a bo-staff who is aligned to wind, and an airbender with a bo-staff glider thing. Similar, maybe, but a coincidence if it would come true. (I still vote for tonfa :p)

If anything, I'd say that the "Avatar State" is more of a rip off. Kyuubi-mode anyone? They both "transform", get a huge power boost, and lose control of their bodies.

But, I digress as I don't like Avatar in the slightest, and would side with Naruto in a second. :p

sabyr
July 16, 2006, 11:52 PM
I somehow don't think Kishimoto (a guy who writes one of, if not THE, most popular manga out there) watches, "Avatar: The Last Airbender" (a crappy American "anime").

A Ninja with a bo-staff who is aligned to wind, and an airbender with a bo-staff glider thing. Similar, maybe, but a coincidence if it would come true. (I still vote for tonfa :p)

If anything, I'd say that the "Avatar State" is more of a rip off. Kyuubi-mode anyone? They both "transform", get a huge power boost, and lose control of their bodies.

But, I digress as I don't like Avatar in the slightest, and would side with Naruto in a second. :p


he probably doesn't watch it, lol(but whats wrong with american anime?)

I don't mind the show, it's pretty creative. But i do like Naruto much better.

kadoman
July 17, 2006, 01:28 AM
I somehow don't think Kishimoto (a guy who writes one of, if not THE, most popular manga out there) watches, "Avatar: The Last Airbender" (a crappy American "anime").


This made me laugh! Hey, Jabba, ya never know...but anyway, he probably doesn't have the time! In any case, I stand by my point that he made the thing up on the spot (ok, maybe within a 24 hour time frame then) and that if he put half as much effort into the analysis of his manga in the same way we do, Naruto would be a masterpiece (and probably a helluva lot shorter!).

I was reading up on Dickens the weekend just gone (yeah, I lead a sad life - he is one of my favourite authors though) and was interested to note that when Oliver Twist was released in monthly installments (imagine getting Naruto chapters once a month!!!!!!) he did in fact lose continuity over time and admitted himself that there were plot holes and some confusion about the time line (Oliver's age went up and down throughout!)

He actually attempted to correct some of his continuity errors with various editions of the book, but some mistakes were made that couldn't be corrected and there they stand today! So it just goes to show that Kishi could also have lost track of things he wrote 300 chapters or so ago and that's why we get things that don't add up (esp. to do with characters' strength!). Well, hey, if mistakes were good enough for Dickens...:D

Gold Knight
July 17, 2006, 09:48 AM
Hell, I don't watch "Avatar: The Last Airbender." :s

In my own generation, I would've expected somebody to say that it would've been a rip-off of Donatello in TMNT: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, tho! XD

jabbament
July 17, 2006, 10:12 AM
Haha, hey now, Paladin. You know how it goes with me...given my horrendous schedule, I've seen quite a few episodes of Avatar, and I watched an entire marathon thing of English Naruto the other night...Voices are complete shit compared to the Japanese, but I digress as I always favor Japanese voice acting...

Lemme just say English Naruto is so much better than Avatar...the 2 can't even be compared semi-fairly.

TMNT, eh? You're rather old though, Paladin. :p

Nah, I watched TMNT also, and I've seen all the movies...hell, I used to have a ton of action figures (except Splinter...god damn did I look for him back then...I could NEVER find the one I wanted...). Though, now why you want Naruto to have a bo-staff makes sense...and you know what? LETS GIVE NARUTO SAI!

ibra87
July 17, 2006, 10:37 AM
Avatar: The Last Airbender
Water. Earth. Fire. Air. Only the Avatar was the master of all four elements. Only he could stop the ruthless Fire Nation from conquering the world. But when the world needed him most, he disappeared. Until now... On the South Pole, a lone Water Tribe village struggles to survive. It's here that a young Waterbender named Katara and her warrior brother Sokka rescue a strange boy named Aang from a cavernous iceberg. Not only is Aang an Airbender--a race of people no one has seen in a century--but they soon discover that Aang is also the long lost Avatar. Now it's up to Katara and Sokka to make sure Aang faces his destiny to save the tribe--and himself. Did we mention he's only 12? (TV Y7FV)

So basiclly, you guys are saying that a Cartoon aired on Nick.-TV is like Naruto just because it has something to do with elements? (psst, it sounds like it's a pretty bad one)

shinwei
July 17, 2006, 11:30 AM
Know what GK? I actually totally agree with you 100% on your comments this time around. The Kage Bunshin training is really cool and I'm really impressed that Kishimoto was able to pull that out of the hat. My disappointment with the elemental wheel revelation is based around the same reasoning as yours, but I'm probably a lot more annoyed at it than you are because I am kind of jaded when it comes to these things.

I'm still hoping that Naruto has some hidden skills that he hasn't shown us yet from his 2.5 years of Jiraiya training. C'mon just ONE jutsu? Pleeaase Kishimoto-sensei? Just to surprise Kakashi while they're training?

Looking towards the future, I really hope the string of "almost got him"s are over and done completely. I want to see some really hardcore "final" confrontations with major villains that were introduced, so we can move on to new villains. I want Naruto to get my blood pumping once again like it did during the end of the Chuunin Exam. I hope he makes it happen.

sabyr
July 17, 2006, 11:46 AM
So basiclly, you guys are saying that a Cartoon aired on Nick.-TV is like Naruto just because it has something to do with elements? (psst, it sounds like it's a pretty bad one)


I never said that, people started ranting. lol[br]Posted on: July 17, 2006, 11:42:38 AM_________________________________________________its not as bad as it sounds either
[br]Posted on: July 17, 2006, 11:43:39 AM_________________________________________________

LETS GIVE NARUTO SAI!


Not more Yaoi!(I know what you meant)

jabbament
July 17, 2006, 12:50 PM
I never said that, people started ranting. lol
Yeah, I was jokin' mostly...they'd be similar, but the odds of Kishimoto copying something from an American anime seems small regardless...though, I digress as you never really know, do ya?


its not as bad as it sounds either
Eh, its not too bad...but given a choice between English Naruto and Avatar, I'm pickin' Naruto every time (no matter how many times I've seen it).


Not more Yaoi!(I know what you meant)
There can never be enough yaoi! (and I meant for it to sound like that :p)

Anyway, back onto the topic!


I'm still hoping that Naruto has some hidden skills that he hasn't shown us yet from his 2.5 years of Jiraiya training. C'mon just ONE jutsu? Pleeaase Kishimoto-sensei? Just to surprise Kakashi while they're training?

Looking towards the future, I really hope the string of "almost got him"s are over and done completely. I want to see some really hardcore "final" confrontations with major villains that were introduced, so we can move on to new villains. I want Naruto to get my blood pumping once again like it did during the end of the Chuunin Exam. I hope he makes it happen.

I agree 100% there...I hope he learned at least one jutsu over the 2.5 years of training...but I don't know if we'll see a new technique right now. Kishimoto wouldn't introduce Naruto's whole elemental jutsu and another technique he learned from Jiraya at the same time. It'd be one or the other, but not both...and right now, I'm more interested in his elemental jutsu and training.

And the Chuunin exam is still my favorite arc...from start to finish, I think it is his best work. I don't know if he'll ever top that for me...but there's always hope!

shinwei
July 17, 2006, 12:54 PM
And the Chuunin exam is still my favorite arc...from start to finish, I think it is his best work. I don't know if he'll ever top that for me...but there's always hope!


If he never tops the Chuunin exam arc...
That would be kind of disappointing, wouldn't it? Aren't you supposed to save the best for last?

jabbament
July 17, 2006, 01:17 PM
It depends really. When Naruto is all said and done, everyone will have their favorite arc. Since the Chuunin exam, none of the other arcs (even post-time skip) have come close to being my favorite.

Will I be disappointed if it never gets topped? Not at all. It just means I got to see my favorite arc early on in the manga. For me, as long as he keeps things at a decent pace, at least semi-exciting, and semi-original I'm happy. :p

glasskatana
July 17, 2006, 02:24 PM
very good reviews as always. I think part of the reason Kage bunshin is so difficult is that for whatever reason it takes chakra to keep the clones going not just to activate them. If it didn't why does Naruto release the jutsu on his clones before they've even been used (like after they've completed a rasengan) Kakashi does this as well (when he meets Itachi he dispells his clones, I always thought that was strange) also, does the chakra go back to the user/other clones once the jutsu is dispelled, if not than after making 5 clones you would effectively lose any battle. 1/5 of your chakra would be all that was left.

As for what weapon Naruto would use. Tonfa would be cool (I think that's what they're called) but I prefer the idea of him using gauntlets. Gauntlets like these. http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i58/glasskatana/gauntlet1.jpg Perhaps they could have weapon summoning seals on them, or kuchiyose seals, or any kind of jutsu seals on them.

jimm120
July 17, 2006, 02:29 PM
I've only read half of the first page but would just like to point out something...

It isn't that if you have 50,000 chakra (lol, seems as if I'm talking about DBZ) and you do Kage Bushin no Jutsu, it is separated into two 25,000....


No, I am SURE that there is a penalty for using that technique. EVERY clone made, there is a "penalty" paid (like I saw someone post something like Chidori being 3,500 to use.....), Kage Bushin might cost an "x" amount for each clone....after that, the chakra is distributed evenly between the clones.

So, if Naruto has 50,000 chakra, it'll cost him 2,000 per clone...so, if he makes 5 clones, that leaves 40,000 chakra, to be distributed between those 6 entities (5 clones and original), which will mean that each clone will have somewhere around 6,700 chakra each.

Just wanted to state that. Kage Bushin is no free jutsu and that the only drawback is that it splits the chakra evenly. It takes chakra to make the Bushin and then the chakra gets distributed evenly.

ibra87
July 17, 2006, 03:02 PM
You guys have forgotten one thing. Look at this picture:

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/5544/bunshinhy2.png

Doesn't this actually mean that the user can decide how much chakra each bunshin should have?

glasskatana
July 17, 2006, 03:45 PM
hmmm, perhaps. Though this is getting kinda off-topic. Perhaps we should put this in the jutsu thread. Or make a new thread in the toshokan called "the science of kage bunshin" that will eventually be added to the jutsu thread. Anyway, I stick by the assumption that at least some of your chakra returns to you after you dispell the kage bunshin. Either that or ibra87's idea, though that seems less likely to me because why would Naruto choose to evenly distribute the chakra?

ibra87
July 17, 2006, 03:46 PM
hmmm, perhaps. Though this is getting kinda off-topic. Perhaps we should put this in the jutsu thread. Or make a new thread in the toshokan called "the science of kage bunshin" that will eventually be added to the jutsu thread. Anyway, I stick by the assumption that at least some of your chakra returns to you after you dispell the kage bunshin. Either that or ibra87's idea, though that seems less likely to me because why would Naruto choose to evenly distribute the chakra?

Neji's byakugan can see the chakra in each person's body. If he distributes it evenly, Neji won't be able to differ between the real one and the bunshins (which actually works).

Gold Knight
July 17, 2006, 03:48 PM
Nah, I watched TMNT also, and I've seen all the movies...hell, I used to have a ton of action figures (except Splinter...god damn did I look for him back then...I could NEVER find the one I wanted...). Though, now why you want Naruto to have a bo-staff makes sense...and you know what? LETS GIVE NARUTO SAI!


Should I dare say that I have Splinter...? XD Even now...! He's in a box of old toys I used to have that's now over at the "new house" though, so I'll have to take a photo sometimes...



Know what GK? I actually totally agree with you 100% on your comments this time around. The Kage Bunshin training is really cool and I'm really impressed that Kishimoto was able to pull that out of the hat. My disappointment with the elemental wheel revelation is based around the same reasoning as yours, but I'm probably a lot more annoyed at it than you are because I am kind of jaded when it comes to these things.

O RLY... XD Yeah, I have sensed a little bit of frustration on your part at recent Naruto chapters. Glad this one was at least partially worthwhile reading for you.


I'm still hoping that Naruto has some hidden skills that he hasn't shown us yet from his 2.5 years of Jiraiya training. C'mon just ONE jutsu? Pleeaase Kishimoto-sensei? Just to surprise Kakashi while they're training?

Hm - well, Naruto did learn how to summon weapons out of a scroll, he increased the power of his Rasengan, and he learned how to counter basic genjutsu. But yeah, I'm with you - I hope he's learned something else that we haven't seen yet. I'm guessing that Kishimoto is saving it for Naruto's next big battle, though, especially now that Naruto's not depending on the Kyuubi anymore like he did with Orochimaru. Perhaps we'll learn something more about what Naruto can do over the course of this training.


Looking towards the future, I really hope the string of "almost got him"s are over and done completely. I want to see some really hardcore "final" confrontations with major villains that were introduced, so we can move on to new villains. I want Naruto to get my blood pumping once again like it did during the end of the Chuunin Exam. I hope he makes it happen.


Agreed completely. I like the Akatsuki, but it's definitely time for final confrontations with them. Maybe not Itachi, since he's such an essential part of Sasuke's story, but the organization in general. I'd like for the Naruto series to move on past the Akatsuki and on to other things sometimes in the next two years.



And the Chuunin exam is still my favorite arc...from start to finish, I think it is his best work. I don't know if he'll ever top that for me...but there's always hope!


I think the Search for Tsunade arc was my favorite arc, maybe because it wasn't such a "tournament" type of storyline, and it showed that Naruto was capable of taking on major baddies in real action. But Chuunin Exams' definitely up there. Memorable stuff. I also enjoyed the Pursuit of Sasuke storyarc a lot mostly because we got to see Chouji, Shikamaru, and Neji in real action.



If he never tops the Chuunin exam arc...
That would be kind of disappointing, wouldn't it? Aren't you supposed to save the best for last?


Right now I can't say that Kishimoto has captured the same excitement in Part 2 he did in Part 1 yet, but recently I've been feeling the same tinges of excitement. Everything right now is pointing towards a very promising storyarc.



very good reviews as always. I think part of the reason Kage bunshin is so difficult is that for whatever reason it takes chakra to keep the clones going not just to activate them. If it didn't why does Naruto release the jutsu on his clones before they've even been used (like after they've completed a rasengan) Kakashi does this as well (when he meets Itachi he dispells his clones, I always thought that was strange) also, does the chakra go back to the user/other clones once the jutsu is dispelled, if not than after making 5 clones you would effectively lose any battle. 1/5 of your chakra would be all that was left.

Like I said in one of my posts, Kishimoto definitely needs to write a "Bunshin Physics" book... XD

Pretty interesting observations there. Though I'd bet that Naruto has such a vast amount of chakra that if there's chakra "gas" needed to keep the clones running, I doubt he ever really has to worry about that unless he's been fighting a long time, like against the clone-using Rain Nins in the Forest of the Death. Kakashi and others might, though. But yeah, that sounds like another thing we'd have to take in consideration.


As for what weapon Naruto would use. Tonfa would be cool (I think that's what they're called) but I prefer the idea of him using gauntlets. Gauntlets like these. http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i58/glasskatana/gauntlet1.jpg Perhaps they could have weapon summoning seals on them, or kuchiyose seals, or any kind of jutsu seals on them.


Haha. Better yet, "ninja gauntlets" like the ones Batman wears.

http://i19.ebayimg.com/02/i/05/c3/f2/f2_2.JPG

Hey, it fits the theme, and maybe make it more of a cat-like gauntlet, with all the sharp ends stacked up at the end and facing forward like a fox's claws.



I've only read half of the first page but would just like to point out something...

It isn't that if you have 50,000 chakra (lol, seems as if I'm talking about DBZ) and you do Kage Bushin no Jutsu, it is separated into two 25,000....


No, I am SURE that there is a penalty for using that technique. EVERY clone made, there is a "penalty" paid (like I saw someone post something like Chidori being 3,500 to use.....), Kage Bushin might cost an "x" amount for each clone....after that, the chakra is distributed evenly between the clones.

So, if Naruto has 50,000 chakra, it'll cost him 2,000 per clone...so, if he makes 5 clones, that leaves 40,000 chakra, to be distributed between those 6 entities (5 clones and original), which will mean that each clone will have somewhere around 6,700 chakra each.

Just wanted to state that. Kage Bushin is no free jutsu and that the only drawback is that it splits the chakra evenly. It takes chakra to make the Bushin and then the chakra gets distributed evenly.


That's what I thought, too. Thanks for commenting.



You guys have forgotten one thing. Look at this picture:

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/5544/bunshinhy2.png

Doesn't this actually mean that the user can decide how much chakra each bunshin should have?


Yeah, and against Neji, Naruto might have known that he would have to fool his Byakugan somehow by doing that, but who knows... might've just been dumb luck, and "even distribution of chakra" was something he usually did whenever he did that technique just for max power for each of his clones ( though when his clones are defeated, wouldn't that mean EVEN more of a waste of chakra.... yikes! )

ibra87
July 17, 2006, 04:07 PM
Yeah, and against Neji, Naruto might have known that he would have to fool his Byakugan somehow by doing that, but who knows... might've just been dumb luck, and "even distribution of chakra" was something he usually did whenever he did that technique just for max power for each of his clones ( though when his clones are defeated, wouldn't that mean EVEN more of a waste of chakra.... yikes! )

Yeah, but when you have something that destroys a mountain by just swinging it's tail, I think you can afford it :s. However I wonder if he would do the same when training with 1000 clones, because I don't think it would be a fighting training. It would probably be something like learning to concentrate your chakra in the right way.

Anyway I wonder how this training will be done. I mean, what if all of the 1000 clones actually learn exactly the same thing? :headscratch (psst, I hope we get to see the kyuubi soon. Naruto using the kyuubi's chakra after the mean things he said to him is just not, err, fair :mad)

jabbament
July 17, 2006, 04:29 PM
Yeah, but it could also be a plus. If he made 1,000 clones practice how to do Rasengan using only 1 hand, and then learning how to do it with both hands (like, 2 at the same time), that'd be a big plus. No more Kage-Bunshin-Rasengan. :s

glasskatana
July 17, 2006, 04:32 PM
Yeah, but it could also be a plus. If he made 1,000 clones practice how to do Rasengan using only 1 hand, and then learning how to do it with both hands (like, 2 at the same time), that'd be a big plus. No more Kage-Bunshin-Rasengan. :s

YES YES and YES!!! This would be the perfect way for Naruto to learn how to do rasengan with just one hand. It appears as though he's mastered step 1 and 2 one-handed, as it seems he no longer needs to hit his hands repeatedly against the rasengan to make the chakra spin. It's just step 3 that he can't get. once he does that he'd be even closer to hokage... well, maybe not that far but it would sure help him in time, efficiency and chakra usage.

Gold Knight
July 17, 2006, 07:46 PM
The interesting thing about one-handed Rasengan is Naruto has actually done it at least a couple of times, once against Sasuke as One-Tailed Kyuubi, and then again against Itachi almost instanteously when an Itachi bunshin was running past Kakashi to strike at him (though Naruto *was* mesmerized at that point, so he could've just imagined it.)

I guess it's just when he's not Kyuubified that he can't quite get one-handed Rasengan, or maybe it's just habit to him now.

ibra87
July 18, 2006, 04:48 AM
Isn't it more like: 1 hand for normal Rasengan, 2 hands for Odama Rasengan? Because that's what he does when he's kyuubified. And I think it's because the sphere is just too big for him to hold with one hand.

Anax
July 18, 2006, 06:37 AM
Why, oh why did I have to be late? 4 pages of comments? My head is going to explode with all the replies I came up to everything said!! I'm definately going to forget most of the things I was going to say, and pout that others mentioned some of them before I could :darn Guess it serves me right for being late... sumimasen Phil

Ok, let's examine what's been said step by step (to keep the mental pressure levels low)

1.) My thoughts on this one went like this: "Huh? Where's the cover? Hmm... I saw a Bleach chapter with no cover the other day... This seems to be a chapter heavy on dialog so who cares, woo more talk!" :spaz

And yeah, it should be common knowledge that I love such chapters, where people talk essentially! A chance to learn more about Naruto physics is always welcomed by me :D As for colorings and the such... umm, no, they come second, sorry :tem

2, 3 & 7) First of all Who would have thought?!! Who?!! So, the potential of the Kage Bunshins is revealed... Actually, I was sure Naruto got to keep the memories of those bunshins, I just never took that notion further and think what 1000 bunshins could do. Probably because they never stayed around for long...
On another note I happened to read Hisshou's translation this time around and so far I've only accepted his reasoning on Tajuu Kage Bunshin being a kinjutsu. The danger of death just doesn't cut it for me... For one, any and all jutsu can be lethal in one way or another if you don't know how to use them!! Kakashi can easily be killed when he's paralyzed from extensive use of his (MS) Sharingan, Sasuke in the past had been warned by Kakashi not to use Chidori too much because it could overstrain him etc. It's up to the nin themselves to decide how to use their chakra and jutsu!! In my eyes for a jutsu to be forbidden it must have either a potential capability for (uncontrolled) mass destruction or clash with the moral codes even ninja seem to have... I think Tajuu Kage Bunshin falls under the first category directly or indirecty, in that a strong nin can decimate an area with his clones, or train with them to do it some other way. Either way, the fact that only Naruto can use it effectively now is no excuse, a jutsu should be labeled forbidden based on its potential, not the potential of the nins around us, you never know just who lurks out there...

This thought brought one or two other matters to my attention.
i) Naruto got the scroll by transforming into a lusty, naked, 20-year-oldish girl in front of Sandaime. Could there be a lamer way to acquire a forbidden scroll? Yeah it was fun, but it still gets on my nerves seeing how strong the jutsu has now proved to be! That old man should have been better prepared! Hell, it could have been Itachi using some lame genjutsu to trap the 3rd in an imaginary brothel. :darn Ok, I'll let go... for now.
ii) It is never clear how much chakra Naruto spends on this move! Never! So what if the chakra gets evenly distributed? People have always acted as if a minimum amount is recquired to make each clone, something that should be enough to wear Naruto out. Apart from that it is also never clear when he uses the Kyuubi chakra or not. Kakashi said that Naruto probably has double his chakra capacity and yet Naruto can use the move all the time without us seeing the Kyuubi come into play. In fact, Naruto has very rarely contacted the Kyuubi throughout the story, mostly after being truly exausted or that one time Neji sealed his own chakra... I really hate numbers in manga, since biology isn't about numbers as well, and athletes can't break or even keep up with their records all the time, so I'll leave it at that... for now.
iii) Naruto learnt this technique, on his own, in one night, with only a scroll for his aid? That scroll must have been written in kana and also be full of ilustrations, so that even someone as illiterate as Naruto could do this kinjutsu!! One would have expected the scroll to be coded, but it seems the 3rd was overconfident...
iv) Lastly (more like a last minute edit), there was a special episode in the anime or in one of the movies (I'm not sure) about a red 4 leaf clover. Naruto went to get it, along with Konohamaru and in doing so tresspased on the chuunin exam grounds. By the time the two had reached their destination and according to Sakura's observation Naruto had triggered all of the traps in there :P It seemed to me then that Kakashi and Sasuke, much too bothered mocking Naruto for his incompetance missed the benefit of his actions, that being no danger for his comrades passing through the same place after him!! I was actually really exited to see this use of the clones finally being mentioned :D

4.) Hmm... Naruto is lucky huh? I never really paid attention to such things... unlike Jiraiya or Tsunade. Guess she might take him with her next time she goes gambling :eyeroll

5.) Patience? I don't recall Jiraiya being especially patient with Naruto... For example when Naruto proved unable to summon a decent frog after a million tries, Jiraiya just threw him off a cliff, without the tiniest hint of a safety measure whatsoever! That way he seemed impatient, rash and reckless, BUT he new better I guess... Actually, I noted two basic elements of Jiraiya's training method (two that in my eyes make them compatible, or just make Jiraiya an awesome instructor) and those were these:
i) He "showed" Naruto what to do instead of tell him! First he used Rasengan on someone so Naruto wouldn't dismiss it as something not worth it. Then he guided him through each step using water ballons, plastic balls and the such. It was all there right in front of Naruto! He even used the paper and the dot to teach him how to focus instead of using Kakashi's complex talk. So, if you ask me, that's where the training methods of the two differ so much... Actually, Fremeer's post made me realize that I'm like that too... I can't visualize very well when things are explained to me in such a detail and back in the Tae Kwon Do days, I'd rather watch my sensei than listen to him... it's especially harder in English for me, which for Naruto equals Kanji I guess :D
ii) The other part is also where I think the training method's of Jiraiya and Kakashi differ and is more apparent through something the latter said: "I'll be with you throughout the training" (or something). Jiraiya on the other hand gave Naruto "homework" and wandered off, taking care of his own matters and preparing the next step at the same time. He was there with Naruto, only to explain what needed be done, then he just left him knock himself out. Somehow it feels like Naruto would be less distracted that way, not worrying about hints of approval or rejection from Jiraiya's expressions... that or it's just me :P

6.) Like you and so many others, I'm looking forward to see the art of the upcoming chapters, without mock wars and overused henge no jutsu, though :darn It'd be funny to see 1.000 Narutos making weird grimaces as they don't understand something :D

8.) Not much to say here as well, I too look forward to learn more about Yamato (his true name for one) but to tell you the truth, I'm more interested in old characters like Asuma, Kurenai, Anko or the parents of a lot of our favorite characters (the parents of the InoShikaChou team for example), not to mention the characters themselves, since I still see Shino as a mystery and I'd also like to learn more about the new Akamaru and in just how many ways has Ino grown up :jk

Well, guess Yamato will have to do for now... :p

9.) For one, when I read the chapter, I thought the ultra high level lecture part, was refering to the added use of the Kage Bunshin, not the elements. On the other hand, I can easily justify chakra affinity not being part of basic academy training, in pretty much the same way as Jabbs did. I'd like to add something to what Jabbs said however, and that is that so far we've seen each nin receive special training from their clan as well! So, no matter what Asuma taught his team, it definately wasn't any of their specialized jutsus; they picked those at home. Perhaps the reason we don't know about Naruto and Sakura, using Sasuke as example much like Kakashi did, is that they don't have a family or clan to teach them those things. Really now, Sakura and Naruto have last names but when did we see them mention their parents ever? Who has ever seen Sakura at her home? See? So, this could be the reason why we don't know what's Naruto's type. On the other hand, ninja are weird, in many way like soldiers are. How so? Well, as far as you don't need to do something, you aren't taught something, and since making your own jutsu IS something advanced, then I guess there wouldn't have to be a reason for one to know their type beforehand. On another note, the way Kakashi's talk was translated gave me the impression that for a lot of people like the Uchiha who have a history in Fire Jutsu, or Kisame who looks like a shark your element is that much apparent! That's why Kakashi said, "you are a zero", meaning that nothing about Naruto hints his affinity for any element andthat the time has come that they must know, hence the ridiculously convenient special cards come into play. Really now, if we are to take the manga that much more seriously, I think I've covered in this post greater plot holes than this...

On another note, I think changing the nature of chakra -being emphasized so in the latest chapter- has become overrated! Who says every jutsu has to be an elemental one? Didn't Kakashi himself say that Rasengan, which is thought to be a highly advanced jutsu, only altering the form of chakra? It seems to me, Yondaime was a humble, to the point person, who didn't care about creating a flashy, electric, noisy (yet used in assasinations) jutsu, rather making a convenient. simple-yet-hard-to-pull-off, silent jutsu, which only altered the form of chakra. A lot of ninja so far fight utilize mostly elemental jutsu (Gaara, Kisame) and yet so many others do not (Neji, InoShikaChou, Shino, Akamaru), so why freak out and try to see all jutsu we've seen up to date as nature changing ones? Huh?

Personally, if Naruto wasn't filled with ninja of all kinds, each fighting with their own unique style, I would have liked Naruto learning a whole bunch of ninjutsu, sealing jutsu, and more advanced taijutsu. The truth is though Naruto resembles more a Monkey D. Luffy kind of fighter with an Ash Ketchum kind of attitude, so I'm ok with him making elemental jutsu that will draw on his insane chakra capacity and crush people by sheer force. It's just how he is... for now.

10.) Call me dense but my thoughts where like this: "Rasengan is not a wind jutsu? I wonder how those elements work...", and a little bit later, "So, Naruto is a wind element after all! Great", so yeah, I wasn't surprised at all... it kind of seemed like common sense to me seeing how the Rasengan resembled a tornado... oh well.

What I don't see is how he is a male Temari! :blink Was it stated anywhere that she's the wind type? I always thought she was the weapon type, amassing a huge arsenal in her gigantic scrolls...

As for Naruto being a weather wizard... I just don't see it. Unlike Gaara, I expect Naruto and Sasuke to be more Dragonbolish, fighting with attacks based on energy discharge. So, far it's been like that with Rasengan vs Chidori, and unless we are talking about a high level, near the end of the series showdown I don't expect them to fight using techniques that require complex incantations along with more complex hand seals and possibly use of scrolls. It all seems too magical, and even though Sasuke might go that way soon, I just don't see Naruto being like that... at least not with that baka face of his occupying my thoughts :darn

P.S.: It'd be interesting to see Naruto use jutsu like the Wind Blade :amuse

Lastly, in response to your sidenote: Those cards were very convenient and screamed "plot tool" or something of the kind, but they were fun one way or another... as for Lee, I'd bet money they'd show some element. Why? Lee can't use ninjutsu, but this doesn't mean he has no chakra at all! Hell the 8 Gates actually lift the body's safety limits on chakra flow and muscle use, so he must be utilizing his chakra one way or another in his moves. He just can't use ninjutsu... So, unless it's possible that your chakra has no affinity, then the card would have to react someway.

Ok, I'll review this post later for any mistakes and what not, I'm too tired now (midday drowsiness), so that's all... for now.

Gold Knight
July 18, 2006, 12:07 PM
Why, oh why did I have to be late? 4 pages of comments? My head is going to explode with all the replies I came up to everything said!! I'm definately going to forget most of the things I was going to say, and pout that others mentioned some of them before I could :darn Guess it serves me right for being late... sumimasen Phil

LoL... I've never had to type so much for one Ten Comments thread before, either... this one happened to bring up all kinds of discussion on Naruto's Bunshin, which has been very interesting so far. Makes me think of stuff I never even thought to think of before.


Ok, let's examine what's been said step by step (to keep the mental pressure levels low)

Calmly now...!


1.) My thoughts on this one went like this: "Huh? Where's the cover? Hmm... I saw a Bleach chapter with no cover the other day... This seems to be a chapter heavy on dialog so who cares, woo more talk!" :spaz

And yeah, it should be common knowledge that I love such chapters, where people talk essentially! A chance to learn more about Naruto physics is always welcomed by me :D As for colorings and the such... umm, no, they come second, sorry :tem

I'm not too surprised in your case ;)


2, 3 & 7) First of all Who would have thought?!! Who?!! So, the potential of the Kage Bunshins is revealed... Actually, I was sure Naruto got to keep the memories of those bunshins, I just never took that notion further and think what 1000 bunshins could do. Probably because they never stayed around for long...
On another note I happened to read Hisshou's translation this time around and so far I've only accepted his reasoning on Tajuu Kage Bunshin being a kinjutsu. The danger of death just doesn't cut it for me... For one, any and all jutsu can be lethal in one way or another if you don't know how to use them!! Kakashi can easily be killed when he's paralyzed from extensive use of his (MS) Sharingan, Sasuke in the past had been warned by Kakashi not to use Chidori too much because it could overstrain him etc. It's up to the nin themselves to decide how to use their chakra and jutsu!! In my eyes for a jutsu to be forbidden it must have either a potential capability for (uncontrolled) mass destruction or clash with the moral codes even ninja seem to have... I think Tajuu Kage Bunshin falls under the first category directly or indirecty, in that a strong nin can decimate an area with his clones, or train with them to do it some other way. Either way, the fact that only Naruto can use it effectively now is no excuse, a jutsu should be labeled forbidden based on its potential, not the potential of the nins around us, you never know just who lurks out there...

Yeah, you guys have already convinced me now about that. I was more or less comparing the Kage Bunshin to Rock Lee's Lotus techniques, which ARE forbidden because of the damage they do to the user's body.

But you guys are comparing the Kage Bunshin to Orochimaru's resurrection jutsu, which is a kinjutsu because of its inhumane potential of enslavening the bodies of long-dead warriors. By the same token, I can see the Kage Bunshin used for a world of trouble, especially if the Akatsuki ever got their hands on it, so yeah.


This thought brought one or two other matters to my attention.
i) Naruto got the scroll by transforming into a lusty naked 20-year-oldish girl in front of Sandaime. Could there be a lamer way to acquire a forbidden scroll? Yeah it was fun, but it still gets on my nerves seeing how strong the jutsu has now proved to be! That old man should have been better prepared! Hell, it could have been Itachi using some lame genjutsu to trap the 3rd in an imaginary brothel. :darn Ok, I'll let go... for now.

Well yeah, Sandaime's only real weakness (besides his age at that time) was women. Naruto just happened to know the perfect move to use on him by accident. Itachi might have fooled Sandaime as well, but I'm not so sure that he would have known it was the thing to do (Sandaime's more of a closet pervert than Jiraiya, after all.) But really, it was all done for comedy relief anyway, the anime totally skipped over that part, so... back then in the series, the story wasn't as serious as it is now, and our manga-ka was just starting out. Just have to forgive Kishimoto for that one and chuckle at the silliness of the moment.


ii) It is never clear how much chakra Naruto spends on this move! Never! So what if the chakra gets evenly distributed? People have always acted as if a minimum amount is recquired to make each clone, something that should be enough to wear Naruto out. Apart from that it is also never clear when he uses the Kyuubi chakra or not. Kakashi said that Naruto probably has double his chakra capacity and yet Naruto can use the move all the time without us seeing the Kyuubi come into play. In fact, Naruto has very rarely contacted the Kyuubi throughout the story, mostly after being truly exausted or that one time Neji sealed his own chakra... I really hate numbers in manga, since biology isn't about numbers as well, and athletes can't break or even keep up with their records all the time, so I'll leave it at that... for now.

I always attributed the presence of the Kyuubi eyes as evidence Naruto is channeling the "red chakra" in some fashion, if only slightly. When his whiskers grow and a flaming aura can be seen surrounding his body, the Kyuubi chakra is fully tapped into by then.

Anyway, using his own "default" chakra, I think Naruto is able to use medium power Kage Bunshin no Jutsu two to three times successfully before he's close to completely drained, but only "Full Power" Kage Bunshin once, though it can come after a medium power Kage Bunshin.

We saw Naruto, for example, using small doses of Kage Bunshin against Neji twice in a row before Neji blocked all his chakra, which is when Naruto had to fall back on his Kyuubi chakra.

Against Shukaku Gaara, he used medium power Kage Bunshin once, then again at "Full Power", before he finally had to fall back on his Kyuubi chakra to bring forth Gama Bunta.

He used Full Power Kage Bunshin in his first fight with Sasuke once before using the Rasengan, but that was a brief fight.

Against Kimimaro, we only saw him using "Full Power" once, after which Rock Lee came along and took his spot. This was after Naruto had used medium power Kage Bunshin a bunch of times against Jiroubou and Kidoumaru. He used average Bunshin to fool Sakon.

Naruto went on chasing after Sasuke to the Valley of the End, where I think at which point he was only able to have enough chakra to create a medium power Kage Bunshin (mind you, this is only in the manga) and the Rasengan, which could explain why he never did a "Full Power" Kage Bunshin during that fight.


iii) Naruto learnt this technique, on his own, in one night, with only a scroll for his aid? That scroll must have been written in kana and also be full of ilustrations, so that even someone as illiterate as Naruto could do this kinjutsu!! One would have expected the scroll to be coded, but it seems the 3rd was overconfident...

Yeah, huzzah for the plot of the first chapter. Heh.


iv) Lastly (more like a last minute edit), there was a special episode in the anime or in one of the movies (I'm not sure) about a red 4 leaf clover. Naruto went to get it, along with Konohamaru and in doing so tresspased on the chuunin exam grounds. By the time the two had reached their destination and according to Sakura's observation Naruto had triggered all of the traps in there :P It seemed to me then that Kakashi and Sasuke, much too bothered mocking Naruto for his incompetence missed the benefit of his actions, that being no danger for his comrades passing through the same place after him!! I was actually really exited to see this use of the clones finally being mentioned :D

Guess I didn't see that part, but yeah, that sounds more like a benefit unless it alarmed the enemies to their presence (a la Kidoumaru), which wouldn't be good.


4.) Hmm... Naruto is lucky huh? I never really paid attention to such things... unlike Jiraiya or Tsunade. Guess she might take him with her next time she goes gambling :eyeroll

Hey! Now we suddenly know another reason why Tsunade likes Naruto so much. :D


5.) Patience? I don't recall Jiraiya being especially patient with Naruto... For example when Naruto proved unable to summon a decent frog after a million tries, Jiraiya just threw him off a cliff, without the tiniest hint of a safety measure whatsoever! That way he seemed impatient, rash and reckless, BUT he new better I guess...

LMAO! Yeah, he did throw him off a cliff! Still, Jiraiya knew that was the only way to force Naruto to "discover" the red chakra inside him, and they were running out of time. I'm sure if there hadn't been a Chuunin Exams just around the corner, Jiraiya probably would have waited longer.


Actually, I noted two basic elements of Jiraiya's training method (two that in my eyes make them compatible, or just make Jiraiya an awesome instructor) and those were these:
i) He "showed" Naruto what to do instead of tell him! First he used Rasengan on someone so Naruto wouldn't dismiss it as something not worth it. Then he guided him through each step using water ballons, plastic balls and the such. It was all there right in front of Naruto! He even used the paper and the dot to teach him how to focus instead of using Kakashi's complex talk. So, if you ask me, that's where the training methods of the two differ so much... Actually, Fremeer's post made me realize that I'm like that too... I can't visualize very well when things are explained to me in such a detail and back in the Tae Kwon Do days, I'd rather watch my sensei than listen to him... it's especially harder in English for me, which for Naruto equals Kanji I guess :D

Good observation there, yeah, that is true.


ii) The other part is also where I think the training method's of Jiraiya and Kakashi differ and is more apparent through something the latter said: "I'll be with you throughout the training" (or something). Jiraiya on the other hand gave Naruto "homework" and wandered off, taking care of his own matters and preparing the next step at the same time. He was there with Naruto, only to explain what needed be done, then he just left him knock himself out. Somehow it feels like Naruto would be less distracted that way, not worrying about hints of approval or rejection from Jiraiya's expressions... that or it's just me :P

Probably.


6.) Like you and so many others, I'm looking forward to see the art of the upcoming chapters, without mock wars and overused henge no jutsu, though :darn It'd be funny to see 1.000 Narutos making weird grimaces as they don't understand something :D

I'm so expecting something like that.


8.) Not much to say here as well, I too look forward to learn more about Yamato (his true name for one) but to tell you the truth, I'm more interested in old characters like Asuma, Kurenai, Anko or the parents of a lot of our favorite characters (the parents of the InoShikaChou team for example), not to mention the characters themselves, since I still see Shino as a mystery and I'd also like to learn more about the new Akamaru and in just how many ways has Ino grown up :jk

Well, guess Yamato will have to do for now... :p

I'm sure we'll get to all that eventually. I definitely believe that Asuma and Team 10 will be a huge part of the upcoming storyarc, when it gets serious. Anything else would be a big disappointment.


9.) For one, when I read the chapter, I thought the ultra high level lecture part, was refering to the added use of the Kage Bunshin, not the elements. On the other hand, I can easily justify chakra affinity not being part of basic academy training, in pretty much the same way as Jabbs did. I'd like to add something to what Jabbs said however, and that is that so far we've seen each nin receive special training from their clan as well! So, no matter what Asuma taught his team, it definately wasn't any of their specialized jutsus; they picked those at home. Perhaps the reason we don't know about Naruto and Sakura, using Sasuke as example much like Kakashi did, is that they don't have a family or clan to teach them those things. Really now, Sakura and Naruto have last names but when did we see them mention their parents ever? Who has ever seen Sakura at her home? See? So, this could be the reason why we don't know what's Naruto's type. On the other hand, ninja are weird, in many way like soldiers are. How so? Well, as far as you don't need to do something, you aren't taught something, and since making your own jutsu IS something advanced, then I guess there wouldn't have to be a reason for one to know their type beforehand. On another note, the way Kakashi's talk was translated gave me the impression that for a lot of people like the Uchiha who have a history in Fire Jutsu, or Kisame who looks like a shark your element is that much apparent! That's why Kakashi said, "you are a zero", meaning that nothing about Naruto hints his affinity for any element andthat the time has come that they must know, hence the ridiculously convenient special cards come into play. Really now, if we are to take the manga that much more seriously, I think I've covered in this post greater plot holes than this...

All the more reason they'd try to find out their chakra affinities early on, though, since they ARE "zeroes," wouldn't you think? There was no need to do that for Sasuke, since his clan had already confirmed these chakra types for him. Sasuke had a much easier time of knowing what he could do.


On another note, I think changing the nature of chakra -being emphasized so in the latest chapter- has become overrated! Who says every jutsu has to be an elemental one? Didn't Kakashi himself say that Rasengan, which is thought to be a highly advanced jutsu, only altering the form of chakra? It seems to me, Yondaime was a humble, to the point person, who didn't care about creating a flashy, electric, noisy (yet used in assasinations) jutsu, rather making a convenient. simple-yet-hard-to-pull-off, silent jutsu, which only altered the form of chakra. A lot of ninja so far fight utilize mostly elemental jutsu (Gaara, Kisame) and yet so many others do not (Neji, InoShikaChou, Shino, Akamaru), so why freak out and try to see all jutsu we've seen up to date as nature changing ones? Huh?

Personally, if Naruto wasn't filled with ninja of all kinds, each fighting with their own unique style, I would have liked Naruto learning a whole bunch of ninjutsu, sealing jutsu, and more advanced taijutsu. The truth is though Naruto resembles more a Monkey D. Luffy kind of fighter with an Ash Ketchum kind of attitude, so I'm ok with him making elemental jutsu that will draw on his insane chakra capacity and crush people by sheer force. It's just how he is... for now.

It does fit his "loud brash" persona, though. You knew from the start Naruto was never going to be the type to "stalk somebody silently in the shadows and stab them in the back when they aren't looking." He's not an assassin-type shinobi, he's a frontline-type shinobi. Sasuke is more of an assassin-type.


10.) Call me dense but my thoughts where like this: "Rasengan is not a wind jutsu? I wonder how those elements work...", and a little bit later, "So, Naruto is a wind element after all! Great", so yeah, I wasn't surprised at all... it kind of seemed like common sense to me seeing how the Rasengan resembled a tornado... oh well.

What I don't see is how he is a male Temari! :blink Was it stated anywhere that she's the wind type? I always thought she was the weapon type, amassing a huge arsenal in her gigantic scrolls...

Well, considering that everything Temari does seems to concern wind manipulation, including even her summoning, I'd say she's wind, and a powerful user at that. She may control it more through weapons than jutsus, which I guess would be where Naruto and Temari would differ, which is good. That's possibly the reason why we haven't seen much from Temari until now outside of the Chuunin Exams, Kishimoto didn't want to reveal his hand too soon.


As for Naruto being a weather wizard... I just don't see it. Unlike Gaara, I expect Naruto and Sasuke to be more Dragonbolish, fighting with attacks based on energy discharge. So, far it's been like that with Rasengan vs Chidori, and unless we are talking about a high level, near the end of the series showdown I don't expect them to fight using techniques that require complex incantations along with more complex hand seals and possibly use of scrolls. It all seems too magical, and even though Sasuke might go that way soon, I just don't see Naruto being like that... at least not with that baka face of his occupying my thoughts :darn

P.S.: It'd be interesting to see Naruto use jutsu like the Wind Blade :amuse

I just hope the next fight between Naruto and Sasuke is the last one.


Lastly, in response to your sidenote: Those cards were very convenient and screamed "plot tool" or something of the kind, but they were fun one way or another... as for Lee, I'd bet money they'd show some element. Why? Lee can't use ninjutsu, but this doesn't mean he has no chakra at all! Hell the 8 Gates actually lift the body's safety limits on chakra flow and muscle use, so he must be utilizing his chakra one way or another in his moves. He just can't use ninjutsu... So, unless it's possible that your chakra has no affinity, then the card would have to react someway.

I'm sure you're right. My guess would be Rock Lee would be Earth though. Fits the theme!


Ok, I'll review this post later for any mistakes and what not, I'm too tired now (midday drowsiness), so that's all... for now.


Thanks!

Fixed my quotes along with my post, hope you don't mind :eyeroll -Anax

shinwei
July 18, 2006, 12:11 PM
That reminds me... we DO know that Naruto has at least one new jutsu from his 2.5 years of training with Jiraiya! He's got a new perverted jutsu! Although Sakura stopped him from using it, I totally want to see what it is...

kadoman
July 18, 2006, 01:31 PM
:blink
It's like you guys have a PhD in Narutology! I just wanted to point out that I think everyone has contributed really well written and nicely observed responses and that I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them! :smile-big Well, GK, the standard has been raised (your fault) so now you have to keep submitting high calibre 'commandements' each and every week (which I'm sure you'd do anyway!) :D

Gold Knight
July 18, 2006, 02:14 PM
That reminds me... we DO know that Naruto has at least one new jutsu from his 2.5 years of training with Jiraiya! He's got a new perverted jutsu! Although Sakura stopped him from using it, I totally want to see what it is...


Weeeell... I think I suspect I know what it is, and unfortunately it's not something that'll be appropriate for a Shonen manga, just like Kishimoto won't reveal the contents of Kakashi's books! XD

Let's just say I bet that Naruto peeked into Jiraiya's bedroom one time and saw something he shouldn't have, and he incorporated that into his jutsu. :p (If that's so, way to go, old man! :jir_thumb )

Or he saw two girls kinda playing around... which is also likely...



:blink
It's like you guys have a PhD in Narutology! I just wanted to point out that I think everyone has contributed really well written and nicely observed responses and that I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them! :smile-big Well, GK, the standard has been raised (your fault) so now you have to keep submitting high calibre 'commandements' each and every week (which I'm sure you'd do anyway!) :D


As long as you guys keep readin' them, I'll write 'em! XD

jabbament
July 18, 2006, 02:30 PM
Let's just say I bet that Naruto peeked into Jiraiya's bedroom one time and saw something he shouldn't have, and he incorporated that into his jutsu. p (If that's so, way to go, old man! jir_thumb )
Jiraya can't be spendin' all that time on sake and women without gettin' somethin' in return, ya know? He's a rich old man, so I'm sure he's got more than enough to tempt any hot young girl...

And if you stop writing them, Paladin...you better have died or something, 'cuz otherwise I'll hunt you down and force you to type, ya bastard!

ibra87
July 18, 2006, 05:17 PM
Think about it. When Konohamaru made his transformation jutsu, Naruto said that it was childish, which means he must have a much more advanced jutsu. I bet it's an genjutsu, Sexy Illusionary World, Sexyunomi. One look in this boy's eye, and you will experience something beyond imagination :smile-big

Putting that aside, I wonder how Sakura and Sai will train. They were useless in mission to rescue Sai, so taking them to the next mission again without training would be stupid, wouldn't it?

white silver
July 18, 2006, 07:32 PM
Think about it. When Konohamaru made his transformation jutsu, Naruto said that it was childish, which means he must have a much more advanced jutsu. I bet it's an genjutsu, Sexy Illusionary World, Sexyunomi. One look in this boy's eye, and you will experience something beyond imagination :smile-big


[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]A pervert's dream

woush
July 18, 2006, 10:45 PM
very impressive! loved it :D

lgstarn
July 19, 2006, 02:50 PM
... that brings us to ANOTHER thing. Out of the five elements, where does "healing" and "puppeting" count? What about Shikamaru's "shadow manipulation?" Seems like there's more to it than just five basic types of chakra, doesn't it, and this doesn't exactly count as an "advanced" lesson.

The only reasonable explanation I can think of for these particular jutsus is that these aren't shaped from any type of nature, but rather are made of pure chakra, much like how Sakura channels her chakra to create devastation with her fists, Neji guides his own to invade the opponent's body, Kidoumaru hardens his own into golden skin, arrows, and webs, Kankurou sticks his own to his puppets, and yes, Naruto's Rasengan.


It looks like exactly these questions are answered in 316, with Shikamaru's skill being addressed in particular, although it looks like there is also a "light" and "dark" aspect of chakra as well, so not just five ?.

By the way, the "Five Elemental 'Ton's" (Suiton, etc), are apparently super famous in Japan/China. See this movie for an example:

http://www.hkmdb.com/db/movies/images.mhtml?id=6357&display_set=big5

Gold Knight
July 19, 2006, 06:52 PM
Thanks, lgstarn! Very interesting.

And glad you enjoyed it Yume!

ibra87
July 20, 2006, 09:51 AM
*looks forward to comments on 316*

It seems a lot of your question were answered in this chapter ^^

Gold Knight
July 20, 2006, 11:49 AM
Yeah, it was amusing how Naruto just seemed to ask all the same questions we did XD

I'm working on 316 Comments, will be out tonight if everything goes well ;)

white silver
July 20, 2006, 07:41 PM
[b][font=verdana][color=green][size=1]Yes, we'll be eagerly awaiting!