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bax
June 27, 2008, 01:03 AM
The RAW is out!! Get it HERE (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33850)

Go ahead and discuss/predict the chapter/next chapter :)

fixed minor typo in thread title

Grimjaww
June 27, 2008, 01:06 AM
Well Stark's reaction doesn't mean that he isn't #1 or #2, it just fits with his personality. I mean at first I thought that's what it meant to, but if I saw an old ass man have more power than the other shinigami i would be like " O WTF " too.

LoS
June 27, 2008, 01:08 AM
well that is certainly a nice way to throw us right into the mix after the prolonged flashback.

jdashmaj
June 27, 2008, 01:10 AM
very good chapter, I'm not sure we may be in for a twist in the story. Aizen seemed a little to over-confident you think it's possible he's not counting on his espada to beat the shinighami but maybe just maybe the Viazards. They have stated that they hate the shinighami and they did say they owe Aizen, they may try and take on Aizen after fighting Yammi's crew. Who know's the next chapter is gonna be good.

someguy0830
June 27, 2008, 01:12 AM
Unfortunately, it'll be a couple weeks before the good massacre starts up. Something of a good sign that he needs time to work on it, though.

~Kaze~
June 27, 2008, 01:13 AM
good chapter !
Aizen somtimes starts to walk on my nerves ... he is just tooo over confident .. >_< i dont get it ...
he defenantly has somthing up his sleeves ...
If the vizards take Aizen side ... then there should be somthing more to the turn back the pendulum story ...and somthing happened after that ...
also do u think we will see ichigo's dad? o.o i really want to know how is his bankai ... maybe its somthing like ichigo's ?

also .. do we have a chapter next weak or not ? if the writer is going to work on it ...

Fallen.
June 27, 2008, 01:13 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/

hyn_pride93
June 27, 2008, 01:13 AM
I'm a little let down. I know that you're not just gonna jump straight into full on action from the begining, but what the hell was up with those hollows at the begining? and then when Yamma released his zanpaktou and trapped them in his fire, that was pretty cool, but when Aizen said that they didnt even have to lift a finger to win made me kind of bleh...

I really hope they serve his ass to him and get into some action because that would just make my day for my. and hey what does "hiatus" mean? does that mean that there wont be a chapter next week?

Starzen
June 27, 2008, 01:13 AM
and than we have to wait for two weeks for the next one, thanx for leaving us on a cliff-hanger kubo.

THETRUTH.com
June 27, 2008, 01:14 AM
If the Vizards show up while Aizen is still in that firestorm one of those three Espadas are dead. Aizen does look overconfident. I still dont think the Vizards are in Aizen's pocket in may work plot wise but they would definitely be complete pussies with a move like that.

Two weeks NOOOOOOOOO

Darek Khort
June 27, 2008, 01:17 AM
Aizen's got a trick up his sleeves again.
I kinda didn't like Yama's move though.
I knew they'd fight the Espada first but...having a wall of flame block Aizen from joining in the fight? That...was ...just anti-climatic.

Yama: Hah! I stop you from joining in the battle!
Aizen: o lol I didn't want to join anyways!
Yama: Then why the f did you come here?
Aizen: Sightseeing, tis all.

Grimjaww
June 27, 2008, 01:18 AM
Well Hirako can take the number 1 espada most likely, he was raping Grimmjow without shikai or bankai. Aizen is underestimating everyone at this point.

hyn_pride93
June 27, 2008, 01:18 AM
If the Vizards show up while Aizen is still in that firestorm one of those three Espadas are dead. Aizen does look overconfident. I still dont think the Vizards are in Aizen's pocket in may work plot wise but they would definitely be complete pussies with a move like that.

Two weeks NOOOOOOOOO

lolololol. i totally agree with you. thatll just make em pussies for doing that. but i really dont want the vizards on anyones side actually. i just wanna see em watching the two sides battle it out. and then just do whatever Urahara does. and they wouldnt join Aizen's side. Hirako is the vizard leader and everyone would follow what he does. Hirako wudnt join him because he saw exactly what Aizen was gonna do to him all those years ago. he was gonna kill him, and if Urahara and Tessai didnt show up they wouldve all been done for.

Grimjaww
June 27, 2008, 01:20 AM
Also we can assume that they are perfect Hybrids because Urahara did use the hogyokou on all of the vizards, trying to heal them.

Fallen.
June 27, 2008, 01:21 AM
lmao yet aizen is the one using hypnosis because he doesn't wanna fight.

hyn_pride93
June 27, 2008, 01:22 AM
yups! Aizen is kind of a wimp. hiding behind everyone so that g=he doesnt get his hands dirty

@grimjaww--:D Ichigo is the only one that hasnt become a true vizard yet. Urahara hasnt used the Hougyoku on him so he's got more training to go through.

Shiro-kun
June 27, 2008, 01:24 AM
Aizen seems calm about everything that goes on , does anything suprise this man?
well i suppose not since "he always is the man with the plan".

Well im quiete intersted in how Yama-ji and the other captains handles this battle and more so how is Ichigo going to have a chance with Ulq, is everyone going to gang up on him or something?

nordicbattlesigns
June 27, 2008, 01:27 AM
Agreed, Aizen does seem to have that aura of overconfidence about him right now. But perhaps there's a good reason for it? He seems to have confidence enough to have even gone all out with a perm!

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/06/

Either that, or does this particular chapter just seem a little rough in the way some of the characters have been drawn? Or is this just me? Or just from a quick scan?

Grimjaww
June 27, 2008, 01:27 AM
I want some of the annoying good guys to die already, like Soifon's vice-captain and fucking Hinamori, Aizen needs to finish the job this time.

Revan46
June 27, 2008, 01:27 AM
It sucks that we are gonna have towait longer. But the good thing is it was a great chapter :D

Shiro-kun
June 27, 2008, 01:31 AM
It was a update chapter no less, waiting another two week for the next chapter is going to be troublesome:darn

hyn_pride93
June 27, 2008, 01:33 AM
well at least therell be that filler arc in the anime that we can watch. and theres also naruto too.

Grimjaww
June 27, 2008, 01:34 AM
Fillers FAIL at life. " Yo we just beat Grimmjow, now gonna go to another universe and have fillers!!! "

Starzen
June 27, 2008, 01:36 AM
all I can say is that ss is seriously underestimating the espada if they think the top three are like luppi, yammy and an injured GJ, we better see a number of the captains kick the bucket as I don't see how urahara and co. and the vizards can take part in the war with the number of enemies decreasing.

Darek Khort
June 27, 2008, 01:42 AM
When those 3 Espada lose Aizen will just be like;
*snaps fingers*
"Now then, say hello to my VL bros"
Pop comes 10 VLs from 10 Garganta.

SS: OH SH-

And thus is SS doomed; and Urahara and the Vizards will be forced to help.

Although unlikely at least one VL will come out if the top 3 Espada lose out; unless the top 3 Espada are VLs themselves.

Given how easily Ichigo took out 3 Vice-Captains during the SS arc, chances are the Vice-Captains in the fake Karakura Town will be wiped clean in 1/2 second.

notBowen
June 27, 2008, 01:44 AM
I imagine Kubo is taking a break because these next few chapters are going to take a lot of time and effort to draw. Let us hope, then, for some fantastic art in two weeks time.

mgalli
June 27, 2008, 01:46 AM
im startaing to think that barragan is the number 1 espada

reasons why: the crown of course (symbolize being king of the espadas?), he is the eldest espasda meaning he has most exp (like yama-ji ) and when he appears in front of the SS captains he appears in front of Halibel and Stark like he's their superior (just a theory), finally: stark's sissy reactions to yama=ji's move (icing on the cake for me)

i still hope that stark is number one, but im starting to doubt it now

Grimjaww
June 27, 2008, 01:48 AM
im startaing to think that barragan is the number 1 espada

reasons why: the crown of course (symbolize being king of the espadas?), he is the eldest espasda meaning he has most exp (like yama-ji ) and when he appears in front of the SS captains he appears in front of Halibel and Stark like he's their superior (just a theory), finally: stark's sissy reactions to yama=ji's move (icing on the cake for me)

i still hope that stark is number one, but im starting to doubt it now

Yeah I'm doubting Stark, but it would be badass if he was 1.

yas875ex
June 27, 2008, 01:50 AM
quick question hoping some of you guys could help w/

1. does kisuke ever get his sword back from aizen.... i don't think he does.. no?
2. do any of you guys know where/what chpt it mentions yoruichi having her sword in permanent shikai?

thnx

hyn_pride93
June 27, 2008, 01:54 AM
Stark seems like more of the laid back type espada that also likes to have fun. and hello if you saw some old fart pull out some badass shikai wouldnt u be wtf too? just because he did that doesnt mean anything

Grimjaww
June 27, 2008, 01:56 AM
Stark seems like more of the laid back type espada that also likes to have fun. and hello if you saw some old fart pull out some badass shikai wouldnt u be wtf too? just because he did that doesnt mean anything

Exactly. I mean look at Solid Snake, complete badass and number 1 soldier, he has a joking personality.

I know i know bad example.

bighawke5
June 27, 2008, 01:56 AM
THE VASTRO LORDE GUYS...

i think the reason why aizen is so over confident right now is because he knows that he has a few of them on his side

maybe he gathered enough and we know they are stronger than average captains

what if they are the ones that will coome into the fight to back up the top espadas?

anyhow the top espadas themselves arent to be triffled with...THAT OLD GUY(espada) looks like he has as much experience as yama...just my thought here

hyn_pride93
June 27, 2008, 01:57 AM
Seriously she like wants to have sex with him, and he should trick her with his zanpatkoou. "Lets do this Hinamori"-Aizen "Thats not a penis Hinamori!!!"-Hitsugya
<hr noshade size="1">


I got a question for you, what the hell are you talking about????

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!! dude i was frikin thinkin the same thing too!!!! what is he talking about? that was so random. no offense dude. but i frickin laughed when i saw ur [grim] reply. thats so fuking hilarious.

Grimjaww
June 27, 2008, 02:02 AM
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!! dude i was frikin thinkin the same thing too!!!! what is he talking about? that was so random. no offense dude. but i frickin laughed when i saw ur [grim] reply. thats so fuking hilarious.

Like that Yoruichi thing should be Kenpachi, and the Urahra thing he had to have made up. Or he could be tripping on acid right now, but those questions were retarded. hahahaha

Hemostrat
June 27, 2008, 02:03 AM
Just a thought.

Since Stark was so "O_O" as old man Yama's shikai wouldn't that mean that the old man Espada isn't number one? Because if he was number one, Stark wouldn't have been so surprised that an old man was so strong.

Inkovic
June 27, 2008, 02:04 AM
Well after an illogical and sub-par story arc we finally get our Ichigo vs Ulquiorra battle.

It better not dissapoint.

Also would hel the manga A LOT if a few Captains die from Espadas because so far the Espada have just been beaten down by the shinigami. Just makes them seem like a lesser threat if there aren't ANY casualties on the protaganists.

Hitsugaya has to die. He just does.

Shiro-kun
June 27, 2008, 02:06 AM
I woudnt mind some captains dying in battle , but the question is Kubo ready to let go of a good character?

Grimjaww
June 27, 2008, 02:17 AM
[QUOTE=Inkovic;922938

Hitsugaya has to die. He just does.[/QUOTE]

That's Gin's job, a genius has to kill a genius.

Darek Khort
June 27, 2008, 02:25 AM
Just a thought.

Since Stark was so "O_O" as old man Yama's shikai wouldn't that mean that the old man Espada isn't number one? Because if he was number one, Stark wouldn't have been so surprised that an old man was so strong.

Good point.
If he was surprised as he was it probably means he didn't know an old geezer could be so strong.
Waha! Undenying proof that the old man espada is NOT no.1

Or it could just be him enjoying himself and his personality. Cause since the old man Espada is in the top 3; he has to be pretty strong himself.

TanukiUdon
June 27, 2008, 02:32 AM
very good chapter, I'm not sure we may be in for a twist in the story. Aizen seemed a little to over-confident you think it's possible he's not counting on his espada to beat the shinighami but maybe just maybe the Viazards. They have stated that they hate the shinighami and they did say they owe Aizen, they may try and take on Aizen after fighting Yammi's crew. Who know's the next chapter is gonna be good.


I'm not so sure, when I first read that chapter, it did appear that Shinji said they owe Aizen. But it could be seen in a different context too, one I think may be more accurate.

Shinji: We owe our right and left nuts to Kisuke and to Aizen... payback is gonna be one helluva bitch.

Or

Shinj: We owe our right and left nuts to Kisuke. And to Aizen... payback is gonna be one helluva bitch.


Note how much context can come from a period. ; )

OhDearMoshe
June 27, 2008, 02:58 AM
Ooohhh prediction time, Soul Society get their asses handed to them and the Vizard come to save the day.

Seems a bit obvious but its probably what will happen.

Grimjaww
June 27, 2008, 03:15 AM
Ooohhh prediction time, Soul Society get their asses handed to them and the Vizard come to save the day.

Seems a bit obvious but its probably what will happen.

I think it was always obvious. : )

gold349
June 27, 2008, 03:17 AM
I personally think the Vaizard owe Urahara and Yourichi and Tessai big time, we don't know what happen between them but I'm betting they will back Urahara, Yourichi and Tessai. They even helped train Ichigo who is fighting Espada, I'm going by what we have seen already, Shinji has already fought with Espada, I doubt it was an act. He would/could have killed Grimmjow, so yep SS will have Vaizard coming to their aid, not all captains are going to make it through this battle (I hope they do but ?)who knows which will die and which will live.

Travis
June 27, 2008, 03:43 AM
I have to say this is kind of lame. The attack Yamiiji did. If he can make a fire prison that Aizen, Gin, and Tousen can't get out of, then what's to prevent him from filling it up with enough fire to incinerate them right off the bat? It just seems kind of dumb if you think about it. If the attack can imprison them so they can't leave then a similar more direct attack should kill them instantly. It shouldn't imprison them at the expense of killing them if it has the power to.

I mean how difficult would it be to send an attack that would surround an area in a sphere like way, where they can't move out of it because it would either severely damage them or kill them, compared to a direct attack that just damages or kills them directly.

gfire2
June 27, 2008, 03:47 AM
i reckon aizen can get out except he just chooses to watch his espada handle this task and just wen gotei 13 is abt to get hammered we see the vaizards arrive n save the day

hyn_pride93
June 27, 2008, 03:56 AM
I over looked thissituation. Aizen can get out easily. All he has to do is open up the garganta to leave it.

anonym9191
June 27, 2008, 03:57 AM
Well I don't think that the captains stand a chance against the top Espada.
I mean think about how much trouble Ichigo had even in his Hollow form with Uliquiora and in his bankai form he had already captain level.
So how should they defeat Espada 1 to 3?
I think it is very likely that the Vizzard will show up and Aizen didn't know that they still exist and therefore is over-confident.

Caligumenthe
June 27, 2008, 04:06 AM
Does anybody remember Wonderweiss...

Cyanilurus
June 27, 2008, 04:20 AM
Yep, we do, but he' s easily defeated - throw at him a butterfly and he' ll be distracted for a while. Works just as well as that fire prison for Aizen...
This fire prison thing is awfully reminding me on Caja Negación.
And yes, Vaizard help is quite predictable.

Just a funny thought, about Orihime saying she is not afraid... back when Ichigo and co. intruded, one of the gatekeepers said they serve Aizen because a being not afraid is something ultimate to creatures like them. So right now Orihime should be... queen-like? :P

RyuSensei
June 27, 2008, 04:22 AM
The only ones who can equally fight with the top espadas should be the commander-general, maybe a combi of Shunsui/Ukitake and the Vizards :>.
That still lets Aizen free.

ayrom
June 27, 2008, 04:35 AM
I hope Wonderweiss proves to be more exciting than being just the resident Heuco Mundo butterfly catcher.

Anyway, hopefully once the Espada are out of the way (either taken out by the captains or vizards) we'll get to see fights between the shinigami and Gin/Tousen
//has been waiting for a spectacular fight scene with Gin for a long time.

I thought this chapter was going to be really lame since it started out with about five pages of kinda worthless hollow activity, but once it got to old man Yami's fire wall things started looking up.

kat_at_heart
June 27, 2008, 04:40 AM
This chapter was a lot better than I had expected, although I’m really starting to panic about the captains and how they will be able to handle themselves. Like other people have already said though, it is just obvious that the vizards are going to show up at the 11th hour.

Andonan
June 27, 2008, 04:46 AM
Yeah I agree with every that the Captains are going to get beaten down and the Vaizards will probably jump in and help, but I do want to make the point that Bleach really works on Rock, Paper, Scissors logic, ie though you can beat someone, maybe that person you beat can defeat someone you can't...... I think the Captains will put up a really good fight, I mean if you excuse a select few we haven't seen most of the capain's bankai's, or how experienced any of them are at Kidou, there are a lot of elements to bleach (one thing it has over Naruto)..... I think it's harsh to just rule things out.....except the vice-captains, they're all pussy's who are all going to be beaten by Stark's little finger....

IMO it goes:
Old-Man Espada 1
Stark 2
Halibell 3

My logic, Old-man i think was made in a direct response to Yama-Jii
Halibell was created as a response to Nel's disappearance, thus filling her spot at 3, and filling that "gender-gap"
Thus leaving Stark to be 2, plus it fits, the funny, happy go lucky guy being number 2, because he can't be stuffed being number 1 lol

I reckon we will see:

Soi-Fon vs Halibell (women vs women, later Soi-fon will be saved by Yoroichi)
Shunsui Kyōraku vs Stark (happy go lucky vs happy go lucky, with probably Ukitake helping out)
Yama-Jii vs Old-man espada (experience vs experience)

the trick is where everyone else will be fitted in, it's fun predicting the match-ups :D

hyn_pride93
June 27, 2008, 04:47 AM
omg!! My thoughts and u guys have to tell me what you think--

Everyones saying that there will be captains that will die off. Well I think that the captain that will end so being killed will probably be Soi Fon. Having her killed off will be a huge turning point in he manga because of in person. And that person just so happens to be yoruichi. Once yoruichi senses that her beloved shinigami has been killed she'll be the one join in the fight. Bust out her zanpaktou and kick some major butt. Then the next person to die off will be komamura. We have already seen that he shouldn't be all that powerful back in the kenpach fight but that doesn't mean tntahe can't pull out some new and long awaited victrph. Although it is highly possible that he'll die off I think rat there will be a huge plot in the story with that. Qq


Sorry for any error s. <-- like that right there. Sorry again but plz tell how Dumba this is
Aargh...

Starzen
June 27, 2008, 04:55 AM
Just realized how lame the fire prison idea was and the vizards should just let those captains die before they deal with aizen, matsumoto can play with wonderweiss to keep him busy and entertained.

hyn_pride93
June 27, 2008, 05:03 AM
haha[directed to starzen]. Rangiku doesn't deserve to die. So she can go play around the retard while everyone else dies and litters away.

Omgtyron
June 27, 2008, 05:06 AM
omfg I can't belive that you all overlooked this ulquiorria told orihime that aizen had no use for her anymore which means that the hougyoku is complete which means that aizen is going to make some bad ass arrancars which kind of explains why he's not worries and kind of evens up the numbers on both sides

Starzen
June 27, 2008, 05:17 AM
we can't let some eye candy go to waste. And as for the aizen deal, he first needs to return back to HM to do that.

Omgtyron
June 27, 2008, 05:30 AM
we can't let some eye candy go to waste. And as for the aizen deal, he first needs to return back to HM to do that.

How do you know that he hasn't already done that?

Cyanilurus
June 27, 2008, 05:37 AM
omfg I can't belive that you all overlooked this ulquiorria told orihime that aizen had no use for her anymore which means that the hougyoku is complete which means that aizen is going to make some bad ass arrancars which kind of explains why he's not worries and kind of evens up the numbers on both sides

But... I thought he already explained that his real reason for kidnapping Orihime wasn' t to use her this way? His goal was to eventually lock up a couple captains in HM, no? And that means, the hougyoku completed itself way faster than predicted, but by itself... or did Aizen do something to it?
I kind of have the feeling that Yama-jii also deduced this himself, and I wonder what he has to counter it. Like, what did he plan for the four captains in HM to do? Havoc?

Xerte
June 27, 2008, 05:45 AM
i'm sure aizen is counting on vaizard...
if vaizard + SS + urahra + Kisuke + isshin in HM r on ''good side'', aizen can't win...

but if vaizard fight against SS, and after that urahara and isshin come out helping SS vs vizard + espada, that makes sense ...
there would be a lot of 1on1 and vaizard+espada=SS +urahara+isshin imo

also kyoraku will see his lisa back...
i lisa vs nanao would be very gooooood if vaizard r on aizen side

lordHokage
June 27, 2008, 06:03 AM
Aizen strongly believes that his top three Espadas can defeat Soul Society top three powerful captains and that way he’s so calm and crazy. One thing I can say for sure that the Vizards would be fighting Aizen, Gin and Tousen. I don’t think Aizen knows anything about the Vizards and since they are interested in Ichigo’s powers, joining forces with Aizen in not wise. :blink

I predicted that team Yamamoto vs. Espadas, Gin and Tousen and the Vizards vs. Aizen. My prediction wasn't prefect. :D

RyuSensei
June 27, 2008, 06:06 AM
Lol. Dude even if you feel like getting mad over ignorant people you should refrain yourself on these forums, and I'm telling you that by experience, I can't even count the number of warnings I've had.
But yea, true that, Xerte I wonder what manga you've been reading lately, or maybe you didn't understand that the Vizards were originally created due to Aizen's experience on breaking the hollow/shinigami limit. What they feel for him is way beyond hatred, we could even imagine that they live in order to kill him.

Fallen.
June 27, 2008, 06:10 AM
omg i just remembered !! Orihime isn't dying!! lmao the new ark that came out is the sequel to the arrancar since chad still has his power and so does ishida. Orihime was running towards chad in the last episode of the new ark and she was still alive lol.

lordHokage
June 27, 2008, 06:23 AM
Lol. Dude even if you feel like getting mad over ignorant people you should refrain yourself on these forums, and I'm telling you that by experience, I can't even count the number of warnings I've had.
But yea, true that, Xerte I wonder what manga you've been reading lately, or maybe you didn't understand that the Vizards were originally created due to Aizen's experience on breaking the hollow/shinigami limit. What they feel for him is way beyond hatred, we could even imagine that they live in order to kill him.


I agree with you. The Vizards showing up is all apart of Urahara's plans but joining forces with the person who is responsible for their suffering doesn't make any sense. Aizen has to play for what he did to both Urahara and Shinji and co. :D

Tsukisama
June 27, 2008, 07:00 AM
The only part of this chapter that I enjoyed was seeing a shikai attack from Yamamoto. We got to learn more about his abilities and I like it when we learn. :amuse The rest of the chapter was rather disappointing, and the knowledge of the hiatus is more disappointing, but at least this chapter left s with much to discuss.


Stark seems like more of the laid back type espada that also likes to have fun. and hello if you saw some old fart pull out some badass shikai wouldnt u be wtf too? just because he did that doesnt mean anything

I don't think it should be surprising for Stark or any espada to see Yamamoto's power. They are likely not ignorant of the SS captains. Aizen has probably briefed them on who's who and told them about Yamamoto. The only excuse I could give to Stark's surprise is that he was surprised to see someone so powerful begin the attack so soon, which seemed to surprise the SS captains as well.


I have to say this is kind of lame. The attack Yamiiji did. If he can make a fire prison that Aizen, Gin, and Tousen can't get out of, then what's to prevent him from filling it up with enough fire to incinerate them right off the bat? It just seems kind of dumb if you think about it. If the attack can imprison them so they can't leave then a similar more direct attack should kill them instantly. It shouldn't imprison them at the expense of killing them if it has the power to.

I mean how difficult would it be to send an attack that would surround an area in a sphere like way, where they can't move out of it because it would either severely damage them or kill them, compared to a direct attack that just damages or kills them directly.

I think Yamamoto just did that to buy some time for the SS captains to coordinate their attack, which is a smart idea. Although Yamamoto is powerful, I doubt he could have killed them all with just his shikai, making it a little pointless to try to turn his prison into a death trap. At least while they are in the prison, the captains may be able to attack them from the outside.
[hr]
Also, please try to keep the discussion civil, okay people? Everyone is a fan here and has their own opinions. Please be respectful of these different ideas and try to embrace them, even if you do not always agree with them. :hbunny

nawar
June 27, 2008, 07:05 AM
dont you think its even more stupid that he didnt emprison everyone except 1 group? that way he would be able to isolate every target and outnumber them! making it easyer to defeat the enemy

Fallen.
June 27, 2008, 07:11 AM
kinda pointless to isolate someone if you can beat them
[hr]
also we haven't seen urahara and yourichi fight at their full strength which makes me think. This arc would be a good way of showing it .

RyuSensei
June 27, 2008, 07:18 AM
I don't think it would have been a good idea to imprison them all, that would mean that he'd have to free the whole group after having the Captains ready to attack, the way he did it the Captains can focus on the Espada while Aizen finds a way to get out of the prison, even if he totally doesn't feel like it since he thinks he won't have to move a single finder to exterminate all the Gotei 13 elite.

Tsukisama
June 27, 2008, 07:28 AM
Well, it comes down to what one considers good strategy. Buying time to give his side the privilege of coming up with a plan of attack seems like a good idea to me. Yamamoto did not know how many people they would have to face, and thus they had no way to effectively plan what to do. Now they have a little time before having to battle.

I can also see the merits of some of your plans as well. Isolating one enemy (or at least one small group) would have been a good idea if SS wanted to gang up on the enemy. SS, however, does not seem like the type to do that. Plus, Yamamoto may not be able to be so precise with his shikai. He created a large prison to enclose the other side, but to be able to effectively divide the enemy forces might not have been possible if Yama's shikai is based on a wild, raging fire.

Aonsaithya
June 27, 2008, 07:58 AM
This just occured to me; wtf is Yammy doing? The 5-9 Espada are all dead, 1-3 are about to start fighting and Ulquiorra is hanging around Las Noches. The 10th Espada fell asleep in toilet?

VeshWolfe
June 27, 2008, 08:08 AM
LOL! OMG I hate Kubo! LOL! First chapter back to the real story, the fight is just starting and there we go a 1 week break. Since we all pretty much know how the Captains fight will go, my only prediction is that Ichigo will reach Inoue just as Ulq stabs her with his hand. She will still be alive, but very close to death. Its clear that ther is a reason Aizen had her retaken, and that reason involves Ichigo (or Aizen is just really in need of a queen or something which would be lame).

lordHokage
June 27, 2008, 08:10 AM
The outcome of this war would determine who had the best battle strategy, Yamamoto or Aizen. :blink

The Adamant Dragon
June 27, 2008, 08:33 AM
Awsom Chapter. Yama-jin sure ain't laughing no more... Though his battle sytragy is kinda odd. Trapping his Enemies in a cloud of fire for an X-Amount of time... for what reason ? ( Damn you Kubo ! Why do you want to delay the fight! ). In the end, time might just be what Aizen wants in order for his Wildcard to be complete. 'Cause he seem quite sure of what he's doing.

For the Upcoming chapters, since Its Obious that Ichigo in his Current strengh cant beat Ulquirra, I Expect the Hollow in Ichigo ( forgot his name ) will surface.

Jadedmariner
June 27, 2008, 08:53 AM
To be honest the way the Shinji spoke at the end of the flashback it sounded like they want revenge on Urahara for saving them. Now it's clear he put the emphasis on Aizen, but the fact that he put Urahara in that threatening statement really makes me wonder if they are pissed off at him for saving them.

RyuSensei
June 27, 2008, 08:56 AM
Well I wonder, to my mind it's more like they want to get revenge on Aizen and help Urahara who might also want to kill Aizen for what he did back in SS.

patedecarne
June 27, 2008, 09:04 AM
Ah, the chapter was good, but not so good as the previous one;

Yammamoto's shikai was a good move here, probably if he'd used in all the enemies it wouldn't work, because the espadas are a little far from Aizen, Tousen and Gin; But actually, seems that Aizen is really imprisoned by the flames, which could show how powerful is Yammamoto, and for the first time, seems Aizen is unable to do anything!

Ulquiorra and Orihime's moments were great ones, very dramatic, and I must say that Kubo is giving all the clues that she'll be killed in this battle: "My heart is with my friends".. typical statement for one who's about to die;

Kaien said the same thing, and guess where is he now? hehehe

The hiatus was the lamest thing in the chapter, 1 or 2 weeks doesn't matter, the problem is the hiatus exists...

Young Aizen
June 27, 2008, 09:04 AM
To be honest the way the Shinji spoke at the end of the flashback it sounded like they want revenge on Urahara for saving them. Now it's clear he put the emphasis on Aizen, but the fact that he put Urahara in that threatening statement really makes me wonder if they are pissed off at him for saving them.
nah im pretty sure they're only after aizen....
i mean its pretty evident that urahara's been looking out for them even after he got them out of SS(i.e...the training area...gigai's)

dreamzsai
June 27, 2008, 09:09 AM
Now.... Three Espada versus Yamamoto, Soifon, Ukitake, Shunsui, Hitsuguya, Komamura seems to be too much, even if they are Vastolorde Arrancars? Yes, No? o_O;

Aizen's confidence here really makes me wonder....Are those 3 Espadas really THAT strong? If it's really gonna be like what he planned out, then aren't the the vice-captains gonna die in like a split second? and won't we have a couple of captains dying or seriously injured? It isn't really like Kubo's style to let good guys die off, though i would love to see that happening....
Also i can't see how the captains who aren't named Hitsugaya and Komamura going down easily....and even if Hitsugaya and Komamura are gonna die, i kinda feel they should be dying under the hands of Gin and Tousen, respectively....

Next, wonder what kind of teams will they split themselves into.... Ukitake+Shunsui is kinda obvious, but what about the rest? Yamamoto doesn't look like someone who likes to tag, and neither does Soifon...

And Wonderweiss and Yammy seems to be MIA for a long time already...

funex
June 27, 2008, 09:11 AM
i do have a question
i dont see neither soifon and yuroichi with a sword..
maybe it my blindness but do they have a shikai and a bankai?

Mythsoul
June 27, 2008, 09:20 AM
Nice chapter....about time we got back to the fight....though all the pendulum chapters are an explanation of the importance of the Vaizards are gonna play in this battle...and that's the one factor that Aizen has not predicted...perhaps ...when the huge ball of fire their in..they wont see them coming ..and kick all the espadas ass...and I wonder how ichigo and the others are gonna get back from HM....and can't wait to see Ichigo VS Ulquiorra 2....

xPm
June 27, 2008, 09:24 AM
i do have a question
i dont see neither soifon and yuroichi with a sword..
maybe it my blindness but do they have a shikai and a bankai?


Yes they do, just like hachi has a zanpakuto.

But (no idea how) they can hide it really well until they decide to use it.

iyung
June 27, 2008, 09:40 AM
i"m really starting to hate aizens confidence , and its just very disturbing that he has this all wraped up.He's trapped he's like meh let the espada crush them, he loses half the espada no biggie i meant to do that, like when he loses it better be from a blind attack because to see someone over power him is going to be lame, if he isnt out smarted or blitz its going to be let down.
[hr]
oh yea , need everyones, power shown , bankai's revealed so we can stop debating these power levels

lordHokage
June 27, 2008, 09:58 AM
Ulquiorra and Orihime's moments were great ones, very dramatic, and I must say that Kubo is giving all the clues that she'll be killed in this battle: "My heart is with my friends".. typical statement for one who's about to die;

Kaien said the same thing, and guess where is he now? hehehe


Orihime need a good beating for being so useless in time of need, so killing her off is a good thing for her character development. She would definetly receive a soul burial and search for her brother who would eventually beat strength of character into her. If that is Kubo-sama plans for her, I fully agree. :D

The GodMonster
June 27, 2008, 10:15 AM
This just occured to me; wtf is Yammy doing? The 5-9 Espada are all dead, 1-3 are about to start fighting and Ulquiorra is hanging around Las Noches. The 10th Espada fell asleep in toilet?

About Grimmjow it's not truth. he was attaked badly by Nothoria and the second time Ichigo saved him. Can you tell me in which chapter Grimmjow is killed, because I have read from Grimmjow & Ichigo ark to this chapter over 20 times and I haven't seen someone killing Grimmjow.



My prediction is that Ichigo is going to have another comversation with Zangetsu & Shirisaki(:p) And we will see bad Ichigo(I'm hopping for that)
I think that we will se his full powers of his bankai, because power of Ichigo's bankai it's not fully developed(That's the way is see the things)

Kurosaki Ichigo;Rukia:Renji;Ishida:Chad;Bayakuga;Kempatchi;Ikakku & Yammamoto rullzzz!!!:p:):amuse

I can't believe that some people don't like what yama did. Every has own opinion but gays come on that was one of the most amazing things in bleach(That again is the way is see the things:p)

lordHokage
June 27, 2008, 10:51 AM
My prediction is that Ichigo is going to have another comversation with Zangetsu & Shirisaki(:p) And we will see bad Ichigo(I'm hopping for that)
I think that we will se his full powers of his bankai, because power of Ichigo's bankai it's not fully developed(That's the way is see the things)

Kurosaki Ichigo;Rukia:Renji;Ishida:Chad;Bayakuga;Kempatchi;Ikakku & Yammamoto rullzzz!!!:p:):amuse

I can't believe that some people don't like what yama did. Every has own opinion but gays come on that was one of the most amazing things in bleach(That again is the way is see the things:p)


I agree with you prediction and what Yama-sama did was awesome. :D

I just thought of something interesting. The reason why Aizen is so confident is because he’s interested in Ichigo's hidden powers. Aizen could careless what happens to Espada and I believe he gives Ulquiorra fighting instructions and hoping that Ichigo's hidden powers emerge. :blink

Omgtyron
June 27, 2008, 10:56 AM
I agree with you prediction and what Yama-sama did was awesome. :D

I just thought of something interesting. The reason why Aizen is so confident is because he’s interested in Ichigo's hidden powers. Aizen could careless what happens to Espada and I believe he gives Ulquiorra fighting instructions and hoping that Ichigo's hidden powers emerge. :blink

I seriously doubt that Aizen would be interrested in Ichigo's "hidden powers" unless he was trying to recruit him to his crew. And Aizen should be well aware of the fact that you can't talk a person like Ichigo into something like that. And even if he could, let's face it there are a lot of stronger characters out there that aren't complete wusses that he would benefit more from.

farseerdk
June 27, 2008, 10:58 AM
some of the captains/vice captains CAN'T die versus the espada because they need to have dailogue with some aizen and co.

We haven't seen any komomura-tousen dailogue and we still need to see the whole gin/matsumoto/hitsugaya drama unfold... (gin like matsumoto... or something, and we then have the fight of the geniuses).

hinamori needs to speak with aizen (though to my knolwedge she isn't here, maybe she will show up halfway to yell out some words while in tears and then get blown away but distracting aizen for a moment, who knows)

MChief
June 27, 2008, 11:01 AM
I agree with you prediction and what Yama-sama did was awesome. :D

I just thought of something interesting. The reason why Aizen is so confident is because he’s interested in Ichigo's hidden powers. Aizen could careless what happens to Espada and I believe he gives Ulquiorra fighting instructions and hoping that Ichigo's hidden powers emerge. :blink


if it's that what's going to happen, the trigger to ichigo's hidden powers can be orichime's death

hajialibaig
June 27, 2008, 11:27 AM
Man, Yamamoto was impressive. But the real question is how strong are the top 3 espada. Ulquiorra being #4 is really strong, Vaizard Ichigo can't lay a scratch on him. That indicates there is a huge power difference between 5-9 and 1-4, maybe indicating a next level

The GodMonster
June 27, 2008, 11:31 AM
if it's that what's going to happen, the trigger to ichigo's hidden powers can be orichime's death

Well if Ulquiora kill Orichime Ichigo will never side with Aizen, but Shirosaki can. It's depends because we all know that Ichigo & Shirosaki(Me:p) love to fight And if Orichime die Well Ulquiora, the ather espada, Gin, Tousen & Aizen will need coffins.
About Stark I think that he is espada Top espada among Aizen subordinates and second after Shirosaki(:p:):amuse)
I really don't care about toussen, but Gin is really interesting carather. Can,t wait to see his story.

Off Topic
It's vere very very stupid opinion, but do someone of you think that between Azen & Unohana was something?

I expect vizards will side with Urahara, but if it Aizen I don't find logic:notrust;):oh .

Sorry to bodder you, but what means "hiatus" I don't know. Sorry

toussaintac
June 27, 2008, 11:51 AM
basically hiatus means break

zzlow
June 27, 2008, 12:04 PM
I don't think it should be surprising for Stark or any espada to see Yamamoto's power. They are likely not ignorant of the SS captains. Aizen has probably briefed them on who's who and told them about Yamamoto. The only excuse I could give to Stark's surprise is that he was surprised to see someone so powerful begin the attack so soon, which seemed to surprise the SS captains as well.

which way they knew about ss captains allready in town?

Franckie
June 27, 2008, 12:17 PM
i do have a question
i dont see neither soifon and yuroichi with a sword..
maybe it my blindness but do they have a shikai and a bankai?

We had an explanation on Soifon's shikai here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/158/03/), but Soifon's bankai is still unknown. It's reasonable to assume Yuroichi possesses shikai and bankai as well, but Kubo has never touched upon the matter.


if it's that what's going to happen, the trigger to ichigo's hidden powers can be orichime's death

Considering things such as how Rukia has been impaled four times (?), the main characters in this series are 100% death-proof, and Orihime happens to be a main character.

If someone is going to die anytime soon in Hueco Mundo, it'll be Grimmjow.


Man, Yamamoto was impressive. But the real question is how strong are the top 3 espada. Ulquiorra being #4 is really strong, Vaizard Ichigo can't lay a scratch on him. That indicates there is a huge power difference between 5-9 and 1-4, maybe indicating a next level
Technically speaking, Ichigo is stronger than Ulquiorra (when Ichigo's power was fluctuating during their first encounter, Ulq. is stunned at the fact that Ichigo's power, at its max, surpasses what Ulq. possesses). The problem is that Ichigo doesn't know how to tap into that power (yet). Considering how the current arc has been emphasizing how the main characters lack the intent to kill, it means Ichigo and especially Orihime cannot fully unleash their powers unless they possess a strong killing intent.

roku-sky
June 27, 2008, 12:22 PM
Random observation: why is there a human in the town?? Isn't it supposed to be a dummy town with all inhabitants transported into Soul Society?

patedecarne
June 27, 2008, 12:27 PM
Yes, Ichigo lacks killing intent, but if by chance Ulquiorra comes to kill Orihime, who`s a main star too, Ichigo certain will show a killing intent never seen before.

Another strong possibility is that Ichigo himself comes to kill Orihime, through some mistake, or even in a process to unleash his inner powers: that way, he wouldn`t be able to forgive himself, and the wrath and anger would so big that his inner power would come up for sure;

Halcyondays
June 27, 2008, 12:34 PM
This is my prediction! Probably wrong, but whatever. Well I don't think the vizards with side with Aizen, so the top three espada have to be THAT much stronger. I think the old espada is #1, and I was thinking it would be a pretty big twist if yamamoto and the old espada know each other from a fight they had a long time ago. Maybe, they both got the scars on their faces from that fight, or maybe yamamoto was defeated and barley survived. That would explain the many scars on his torso and head. That would also make the espada a much larger threat, which they need to be since they are outnumbered right now.

Anyways, I think we'll see SS vs Espada for a little bit. SS will probably be losing when Aizen, gin, and tosen break out, but I think the vizards will show up around that time. The vizards will take over the fights with the espada, and the SS captains will go after Aizen. Because I agree with a few people that said we need to see a Komamura vs Tosen and Hitsugaya vs Gin.

The GodMonster
June 27, 2008, 12:47 PM
Franckie
If someone is going to die anytime soon in Hueco Mundo, it'll be Grimmjow.

Grimmjow dieing :scry
I was thinking that kubo will make him Friend with Ichigo like Nell and the two of them plus some other sinigami(kempachi yamamot(if he not die)Urachara Bayakuga & the Vizards) are going to train him. I really expect that. I really want Ichigo & Grimmjow Friends. Have I ask to much?:amuse

Inkovic
June 27, 2008, 12:48 PM
Considering things such as how Rukia has been impaled four times (?), the main characters in this series are 100% death-proof, and Orihime happens to be a main character.

If someone is going to die anytime soon in Hueco Mundo, it'll be Grimmjow.


The greatest flaw of this manga is that the protaganists never die, thus failing to emphasize the villification of the antagonists. Honestly since the main characters don't go to school anyway it wouldn't kill them to kill of Orihime and make her live in Soul Society rather than the real world.

Captains need to die. They just do. Else the Espada would just seem like a blip on the radar that didn't do anything and no more of a threat than the Bount in the anime filler.

Tsukisama
June 27, 2008, 01:43 PM
which way they knew about ss captains allready in town?

Not sure I understand your question. If you wouldn't mind restating it (or someone else interpreting it for me), I would be happy to answer. :hbunny


We had an explanation on Soifon's shikai here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/158/03/), but Soifon's bankai is still unknown. It's reasonable to assume Yuroichi possesses shikai and bankai as well, but Kubo has never touched upon the matter.


Actually, Kubo has actually already told us Yoruichi has bankai. Yoruichi in her explanation of bankai says that Kenpachi is the only Gotei 13 captain not to achieve bankai, and since we now know that she was a former Gotei 13 captain, she must also have a bankai.

hajialibaig
June 27, 2008, 01:51 PM
Barragan doesn't seem to be a bit concerned about Yamamoto's release, on the other hand, Stark is acting all sissy and stuff, while Halibel doesn't seem too concerned either. That yields me to say: #1 = Barragan, #2=Halibel, #3=Stark

gordongirl
June 27, 2008, 01:55 PM
Random observation: why is there a human in the town?? Isn't it supposed to be a dummy town with all inhabitants transported into Soul Society?

No I dont think that was a human. It was most likely a soul being chased by a hollow. However I didnt expect souls or hollows to be left in the 'dummy town'.

What I have a problem with is the whole hiatus thing. Thats a bicttchh move man :( So many questions and you want to got on a break?!?

Whats Aizen planning? Why is he so confident??
Will Ulq really kill Orihime?
Hueco Mundo vs Soul Society! What about that!? All we got was some wall of fire :(
When this break is over, a want an outstanding chapter. One of epic proportions!

TheChosenOne
June 27, 2008, 01:58 PM
Barragan doesn't seem to be a bit concerned about Yamamoto's release, on the other hand, Stark is acting all sissy and stuff, while Halibel doesn't seem too concerned either. That yields me to say: #1 = Barragan, #2=Halibel, #3=Stark

Well Stark being a little concerned doesn't have to mean he is weaker than the other two. It could be that Barragan and Halibel are overly confident and don't care, where as Stark sees something else. :)

The GodMonster
June 27, 2008, 02:19 PM
Well Stark being a little concerned doesn't have to mean he is weaker than the other two. It could be that Barragan and Halibel are overly confident and don't care, where as Stark sees something else. :)

Well I think you are right. Well even Baraggan & Halibel go all mighty & powerful Yamamoto isn't gay who they can ignore. They will see hell of a fight!

hyn_pride93
June 27, 2008, 02:19 PM
Well Stark being a little concerned doesn't have to mean he is weaker than the other two. It could be that Barragan and Halibel are overly confident and don't care, where as Stark sees something else. :)

EXACTLY!!!!!! I'm so tired of hearing people say that Stark is weak. just because Stark had actual reactions doesnt mean that he's not the top espada. I wudnt be surprised if he was the top espada. remember now, vasto lords are hollows that are the most human. Stark seemed pretty fuking human with those reactions so watch out. and hello, didnt we just go over this already? I swear... ALL of you would be like,"OH SNAP!!!!! THAT OLD FART HAS THAT MUCH POWER?! AND ITS JUST HIS DAMN SHIKAI!!!!!!!!". come on now you guys, get over it already. Stark is still bad ass no matter what. having those kind of reactions just match his personality!!:notrust

toussaintac
June 27, 2008, 03:38 PM
Barragan doesn't seem to be a bit concerned about Yamamoto's release, on the other hand, Stark is acting all sissy and stuff, while Halibel doesn't seem too concerned either. That yields me to say: #1 = Barragan, #2=Halibel, #3=Stark

Ulquiorra always looks unconcerned no matter what, and Stark is higher than him. So, you can't rank their power by their reactions. Also, it seems to be Stark's personality to show emotions like that time he was laying down looking bored and how he didn't care about one of the other Espada being killed. He's the only one out of all the Espada that don't seem intense and serious. That's why I think he's the strongest.

hajialibaig
June 27, 2008, 04:06 PM
Ulquiorra always looks unconcerned no matter what, and Stark is higher than him. So, you can't rank their power by their reactions. Also, it seems to be Stark's personality to show emotions like that time he was laying down looking bored and how he didn't care about one of the other Espada being killed. He's the only one out of all the Espada that don't seem intense and serious. That's why I think he's the strongest.

Yea true. Ranking them by their reaction isn't definitive. But still, look at Stark coughing like an idiot lol, might be his personaliy, or Yama's flames producing an effect on the weakest :D

Sa-sori
June 27, 2008, 04:06 PM
Stark is the most human with his reactions and emotions, so it seems to me that he's number 1.

finalnight
June 27, 2008, 04:22 PM
Nice chapter, but why is author on break? I thought he has been on vacation all of this time as it was said he wrote the gaiden way back when.

Sa-sori
June 27, 2008, 04:29 PM
The Gotei vs Top 3 Espada, Ichigo vs Ulqy, he needs time so he wont screw up :p

villageidiot
June 27, 2008, 04:36 PM
Don't really know which espada are the strongest or weakest. Doesn't really matter they're all cannon fodder, that's what Aizen meant when he said the battle was over before it started. He anticipated the SS crew and vizard battling and defeating his forces. Beings are pawns to him and if there are going to be vasto lordes sooner or later and I'd assume there would be, otherwise why spend so much space talking about them, then espada are a means to an end and that end is getting to the kings dimension, vasto lordes are his army for when he gets there.

Aizen isn't trapped and probably anticipated being kept out of the fray and probably wants it that way so he can go after Karakura Town with little to no interference. Karakura town is going to be destroyed and Orihime will eventually 'reject' that outcome, but not until much later.

I don't think Kubo would have introduced the idea of a squad zero if he didn't intend to actually show them so I'd predict that we're going to be going to the King's dimension eventually. If Isshin and possibly Ryūken are going to be expanded upon this is where that will occur. If we don't see a demonstration of Urahara or Yoruichi powers here I'd say ditto for them too.

Ichigo will fight, power up and defeat Ulquiorra in HM and his power up will be significant. Coincidentally Aizen won't be around and therefore will not be aware of how powerful Ichigo has become and will therefore not calculate or miscalculate Ichigo's impact on his final plans.

I don't know if it's been covered yet but, it would appear that our main youthful protagonists all represent and/or have an affinity to the individual 'settings' within the Bleach universe. Rukia=SS, Chad=HM, Ishida=Earth and Orihime, who won't die in HM=King's Dimension. Ichigo will turn out to be the hybrid that straddles all four, so expect even more power ups.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I'd predict that somehow at least Ichigo, Orihime and Ken chan get to the King's Dimension and that it is there that Ken will get shikai and possibly bankai.

ShaunMati1
June 27, 2008, 05:36 PM
Do we really have to wait 2 more weeks for the next chapter??

If we do then dammit orihime is a waste man. She IMO ruins this anime. Look at the last 4 pages of last chapter, we could have seen more of the battle in KK town or maybe have ichigo arrive at the 5th tower, but no we have 4 pages...4!! of orihime saying 2 lines..."no im not scared" and "my heart is with my friends". Ever since she got kidnapped i always hoped kubo would just finish her off. LOL 4 pages.....seriously just ulquiorra and orihime looking at each other....i dont know about u guys but that wasnt very climactic. Please kill off orihime.

gigantor21
June 27, 2008, 05:40 PM
^ Oh, come on man, that's not fair. Kubo uses that kind of layout spacing all the time, not just for Orihime--it's a common tactic for building drama and/or stretching for time. I thought the beginning part with the Hollows and the ghost, along with the generic back-and-forth between Aizen and Yama's camps, was far more wasteful. THAT'S when they should've been fighting, not staring each other down and going over stuff they should've ironed out before they arrived.

hajialibaig
June 27, 2008, 05:43 PM
Do we really have to wait 2 more weeks for the next chapter??

If we do then dammit orihime is a waste man. She IMO ruins this anime. Look at the last 4 pages of last chapter, we could have seen more of the battle in KK town or maybe have ichigo arrive at the 5th tower, but no we have 4 pages...4!! of orihime saying 2 lines..."no im not scared" and "my heart is with my friends". Ever since she got kidnapped i always hoped kubo would just finish her off. LOL 4 pages.....seriously just ulquiorra and orihime looking at each other....i dont know about u guys but that wasnt very climactic. Please kill off orihime.

Bleach is going to end eventually, so why hurry up and ruin the whole experience. It's always nice to add in such scenes so we can cherish them later. Impatience ruins everything

Quartz-pebble
June 27, 2008, 05:48 PM
We'll have combat next chapter. I figured this one would just be to get back into the feel of things.

Aizen's statement on the top three confirms that they are much more powerful than first thought.

Also, while I'd like to say Stark's reaction would seem to indicate him being #3, I'm still under the impression that he get's away with acting the way he does because he's in fact, #1.

Either way, I'm pumped. :)

Grimjaww
June 27, 2008, 06:08 PM
We'll have combat next chapter. I figured this one would just be to get back into the feel of things.

Aizen's statement on the top three confirms that they are much more powerful than first thought.

Also, while I'd like to say Stark's reaction would seem to indicate him being #3, I'm still under the impression that he get's away with acting the way he does because he's in fact, #1.

Either way, I'm pumped. :)

Remember that Aizen did send Stark to retrieve Orihime. Ichigo and Kenpachi were with Orihime, so I'm guessing Aizen sent the #1 Espada to retrieve her in order for him to succeed. I'm sure Kenpachi and Ichigo could take on #2 or #3 with team work, so makes sense to send in the strongest to make sure nothing goes wrong.
[hr]
Also I don't think Stark was amazed at Yamaji's power, but the fact that the leader who always seems to take a seat back from the action was the one to first act. I mean even Soifon and Hitsuguya were suprised when Yamji started to call out his shikai.

redcometfm
June 27, 2008, 06:30 PM
To be honest, Im glad he's taking two weeks off. Bitch all you want, but at least we'll get better, well planned material. Kubo, as far as I remember, rarely takes breaks, unlike Eiichiro Oda and Kishimoto who do take their breaks for research and such. If anything, Kubo deserves it. Hopefully he'll get lucky and find a girlfriend or something. Plus, it was his birthday yesterday for christ's sake, and I doubt he was able to enjoy it so these two weeks are well deserved.

lordHokage
June 27, 2008, 06:41 PM
Anyways, I think we'll see SS vs Espada for a little bit. SS will probably be losing when Aizen, gin, and tosen break out, but I think the vizards will show up around that time. The vizards will take over the fights with the espada, and the SS captains will go after Aizen. Because I agree with a few people that said we need to see a Komamura vs Tosen and Hitsugaya vs Gin.


If Soul Society is losing so quickly to Espada, why Aizen, Gin and Tousen would get involve but then again, Aizen doesn’t expect this little scuffle to last long. When the Vizards, Urahara, Tessai, Yoruichi, Isshin, and maybe Ryuken, Uryu’s father all show up, the real battle saga begins and that would be Kodak moment. I agree that I want to see Komamaru vs. Tousen and Hitsugaya vs. Gin too and Aizen vs. Shinji and Urahara. :D

Devil-buster
June 27, 2008, 06:58 PM
I still dont understand why aizen asked stark to retrieve inoue back in HM...I mean if he didnt need her anymore....also I too think stark is the strongest, he is just acting with his personality....although stark's subordinate did not seem bothered by aizen reiatsu at all...I wonder how strong she/he is....I see hiyori vs her.....

I dont know why a lot of people think the captains will loose easily...I mean three of the most powerful captains are there(yama, shunsui, ukitake) also we havent seen soifon's bankai yet, he shikai has a pretty cool ability, makes me wonder what her bankai is(death itself?).....I believe the top three espada's will be beaten....and I think aizen plan will fail...he will go back to HM....form a new espada....all vastolordes.....because I dont see how aizen can beat all the captains including urahara, isshin, ryuken, yoruichi, and go into the king's place....whose guards are all captains with only three or less espada....

Sa-sori
June 27, 2008, 07:02 PM
If the end is coming it makes sense to kill off some of the Gotei and vaizards to prove how powerful Aizen and co. are.

toussaintac
June 27, 2008, 07:05 PM
If Soul Society is losing so quickly to Espada, why Aizen, Gin and Tousen would get involve but then again, Aizen doesn’t expect this little scuffle to last long. When the Vizards, Urahara, Tessai, Yoruichi, Isshin, and maybe Ryuken, Uryu’s father all show up, the real battle saga begins and that would be Kodak moment. I agree that I want to see Komamaru vs. Tousen and Hitsugaya vs. Gin too and Aizen vs. Shinji and Urahara. :D

I'd have to think that Aizen figures the arrancar are going to get killed pretty quickly, so there's no point in trying to break free and help them fight. I honestly don't see Yama losing to any of the espada...Come on guys. If the probably 2nd and 3rd strongest Shinigami had to team up to fight Yama, do you really think Yama is weak enough that he would die at the hands of an espada? That would be ridiculous and put Aizen at an even more ridiculous level...please. I think Aizen knows the espada are going to get their asses drug. I think Yama himself will kill all but the strongest arrancars (top 3 espada) in one go of his Shikai. Thats what Aizen's probably thinking. Let the fireworks begin...in 2 weeks...damnit!

Grimjaww
June 27, 2008, 07:46 PM
I'd have to think that Aizen figures the arrancar are going to get killed pretty quickly, so there's no point in trying to break free and help them fight. I honestly don't see Yama losing to any of the espada...Come on guys. If the probably 2nd and 3rd strongest Shinigami had to team up to fight Yama, do you really think Yama is weak enough that he would die at the hands of an espada? That would be ridiculous and put Aizen at an even more ridiculous level...please. I think Aizen knows the espada are going to get their asses drug. I think Yama himself will kill all but the strongest arrancars (top 3 espada) in one go of his Shikai. Thats what Aizen's probably thinking. Let the fireworks begin...in 2 weeks...damnit!

I never did think about it like that, I mean Aizen didn't say the Espada are going to rape the shinigami, or that the shinigami or going to wtf pwn the Espada, it's still open to speculation. When Aizen says something, its usually the opposite of what everyone thinks anyways. : P

szhang
June 27, 2008, 07:49 PM
I like how Shunsui asks what we ve all being wondering for liek a month: whose the strongest espadad in the manga

i guess we have to ask aizen that question

anyone has his cell?

karimamin
June 27, 2008, 07:57 PM
Going by the number of minions they have with them, I'm guessing Stark is the #1 espada. Followed by Baragan since he has two giants with him, then Halibel with her 3 girls. Thus espada 1, 2 and 3. Also it would suck if Stark wasn't #1 as he's the coolest of the three and for him to be weaker than one of the other bores, would make him definely "less cooler."

As for Aizen and his cockyness. He hasn't been wrong since nor has a plan of his not gone as expected. If he says that it'll be over in a few, it probably will be thus Yamato is going to get his tail whipped. And you have to remember, the captains in HM who fought espada somehow convieniently fought people who they had an advantage over. Byaka has his petals which was able to destroy the Zomari's eyes. Mayuri implanted cameras and was able to remove his body internals otherwise he'd be defeated by Szayel. Even Kenpachi was probably one of the few shinigami with the brute strength to cut Noitra's skin. If those captains would have exchanged places, i'm sure the outcome would have been very different.

lordHokage
June 27, 2008, 08:11 PM
I dont know why a lot of people think the captains will loose easily...I mean three of the most powerful captains are there(yama, shunsui, ukitake) also we havent seen soifon's bankai yet, he shikai has a pretty cool ability, makes me wonder what her bankai is(death itself?).....I believe the top three espada's will be beaten....and I think aizen plan will fail...he will go back to HM....form a new espada....all vastolordes.....because I dont see how aizen can beat all the captains including urahara, isshin, ryuken, yoruichi, and go into the king's place....whose guards are all captains with only three or less espada....



I'd have to think that Aizen figures the arrancar are going to get killed pretty quickly, so there's no point in trying to break free and help them fight. I honestly don't see Yama losing to any of the espada...Come on guys. If the probably 2nd and 3rd strongest Shinigami had to team up to fight Yama, do you really think Yama is weak enough that he would die at the hands of an espada? That would be ridiculous and put Aizen at an even more ridiculous level...please. I think Aizen knows the espada are going to get their asses drug. I think Yama himself will kill all but the strongest arrancars (top 3 espada) in one go of his Shikai. Thats what Aizen's probably thinking. Let the fireworks begin...in 2 weeks...damnit!


Well said. I believe Aizen not only hypnotize his army of Espada but he hypnotize himself too and maybe Gin. How could Aizen and his army defeat the King's Royal Guards when he can't defeat Gotei 13 Captains? :blink

The Last Uchiha
June 27, 2008, 08:21 PM
I think Yamamoto wont be able to fight because his reiatsu its whats keeping the fire of his shikai going. And I still think that the Vizards are going to side with Aizen, Grimmjow is going to turn into a good guy and Orihime is going to die. Lets see how many i get right :P

PredakingD78
June 27, 2008, 08:26 PM
The Espada are expendable. I never thought that Aizen planned for them to beat the Gotei 13 in the 1st place. Since pretty much all of the Arrcanar have devoured countless other hollows and souls, would it not be feasible that Aizen intends to use them as a to create the King's key? IIRC, he needs a multitude of sould (mod or other wise) and he needs the spirit particle rich land of K town. We always figured he'd use the citizens' souls, but given the arrcanar compisition they would seem to fit the bill.

toussaintac
June 27, 2008, 08:42 PM
The Espada are expendable. I never thought that Aizen planned for them to beat the Gotei 13 in the 1st place. Since pretty much all of the Arrcanar have devoured countless other hollows and souls, would it not be feasible that Aizen intends to use them as a to create the King's key? IIRC, he needs a multitude of sould (mod or other wise) and he needs the spirit particle rich land of K town. We always figured he'd use the citizens' souls, but given the arrcanar compisition they would seem to fit the bill.

Hell, I wouldn't be surpised if Yama took on and crushed the top 3 espada with his bankai himself after wiping out the rest of the arrancars with his shikai. That'd pretty much show his strength. But, I'd rather the coolness of Stark not suffer such an embarassing defeat, so I hope Stark fights someone one on one.

cero_tenshou
June 27, 2008, 08:48 PM
i think aizen is trying to imply that the three espada are able to defeat 6 captains. he seems to be one who likes people to do his dirty work for him at any time possible, and he seems to believe that these espada are strong enough to take on 2 captains at a time. so i guess this means that these espada really are vastos after all. but from the reaction, it kinda seems as though stark is the 3rd espada. he seemed surprised at yama's shikai. at least that's what i thought until his reaction afterwards. he seems to be almost amused after yama traps aizen gin and tousen. or at least he is relieved that it wasn't as bad as it seemed. then i thought that he is the first, which i've believed for a long time now. it seems as though aizen really does anticipate that urahara, yoroichi, tessai and probably the vaizards, would be helping out at some point.

ryanzokuken
June 27, 2008, 09:02 PM
Going by the number of minions they have with them, I'm guessing Stark is the #1 espada. Followed by Baragan since he has two giants with him, then Halibel with her 3 girls. Thus espada 1, 2 and 3. Also it would suck if Stark wasn't #1 as he's the coolest of the three and for him to be weaker than one of the other bores, would make him definely "less cooler."

As for Aizen and his cockyness. He hasn't been wrong since nor has a plan of his not gone as expected. If he says that it'll be over in a few, it probably will be thus Yamato is going to get his tail whipped. And you have to remember, the captains in HM who fought espada somehow convieniently fought people who they had an advantage over. Byaka has his petals which was able to destroy the Zomari's eyes. Mayuri implanted cameras and was able to remove his body internals otherwise he'd be defeated by Szayel. Even Kenpachi was probably one of the few shinigami with the brute strength to cut Noitra's skin. If those captains would have exchanged places, i'm sure the outcome would have been very different.


Baragan has 4 fraccion.


anyways

i think people seem to be overestimating Yama. he seems to have a lot of raw power, and he has a pretty devastating and useful zanpakuto, but in terms of actually FIGHTING, i don't think we can expect too much. his shunpo isn't too bad, for an old guy like him, but it still took him a moment to catch up to Shunsui and Ukitake when they fled to a different location to fight in SS. but matched against the Espada, i don't see him being too awfully fast or strong. how would his old body hold out? he'd probably have to rely on his zanpakuto's power and some kido's.

but i don't think he'll be fighting the Espada anyways. i don't see how he could take part in the battle and keep Aizen, Gin, and Tousen trapped at the same time. he'll probably just hold them while the other Captains take on the Espada.

i hope Hitsugaya gets messed up or even taken out for good. he annoys me with his unjustified confidence all the time.

toussaintac
June 27, 2008, 09:03 PM
i think aizen is trying to imply that the three espada are able to defeat 6 captains. he seems to be one who likes people to do his dirty work for him at any time possible, and he seems to believe that these espada are strong enough to take on 2 captains at a time. so i guess this means that these espada really are vastos after all. but from the reaction, it kinda seems as though stark is the 3rd espada. he seemed surprised at yama's shikai. at least that's what i thought until his reaction afterwards. he seems to be almost amused after yama traps aizen gin and tousen. or at least he is relieved that it wasn't as bad as it seemed. then i thought that he is the first, which i've believed for a long time now. it seems as though aizen really does anticipate that urahara, yoroichi, tessai and probably the vaizards, would be helping out at some point.

I can't see it happening. I think Yama kills all but the strongests arrancars with his shikai and single handedly fights the rest with his Bankai.

pjboom
June 27, 2008, 09:50 PM
Well, at the begining of the ark we were told:

A Vasto Lord is as strong as a captain. We have seen that an Adjuca espada is at the same level as a captain. So I thik that it wouln't be a mistake, acording to the information we have been given to supose that a vasto espada is pretty much stronger than a captain.

toussaintac
June 27, 2008, 10:08 PM
Well, at the begining of the ark we were told:

A Vasto Lord is as strong as a captain. We have seen that an Adjuca espada is at the same level as a captain. So I thik that it wouln't be a mistake, acording to the information we have been given to supose that a vasto espada is pretty much stronger than a captain.

Adjuchas Espada are equal to average captains. Shunsui, Ukitake, and Yama, are far above that. i'm not sure about Soifon, but if her shikai can kill you in two hits to the same spot, i'm scared to think what her bankai can do. Plus she has that technique that her and Yoruichi know that burn parts of their clothes off. (Shunpo i think. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong because shunpo could be the flashs step). I'm not sure about the other two captains there (Komamaru and forgot the other guy), but I'm sure they're more than capable.

Xigurd
June 27, 2008, 10:08 PM
Hello folks. Long time reader, fist time poster.

About this chapter, at first Aizen, Gin, Tousen and 3 espadas vs. Captains seemed to be even match, considering how seemingly powerful Yama-ji, Shunsui and Ukitate are.

But aizen's complete confindence is strange. If these 3 espadas can overpower rest of the Gotei, that would be just absurd power inflation, Since Aizen and co. will be even more powerful than that.

If the ominous flashback chapters are any indication, I think Aizen plans to use 'Hollowfication' against his oppenents, but this time He probably will be able to control them as he wills. It seems to me that the battle will probably fan out with Vaizard vs. Espada&Hollow-Captains.

Who knows, maybe Urahara will show up with cure for hollowfication later. But this is all just my speculation.

toussaintac
June 27, 2008, 10:13 PM
How many Vizards are there again?

Devil-buster
June 27, 2008, 10:28 PM
Well I dont think gin and tousen are more poerful than the espada....I am not sure abt gin but tousen is definately weaker even if the have under gone hollowification....even grimmjow seemed confident about defeating tousen....and gin shouldnt be that much stronger.....the espada just dont hurt them cause they r aizen's dildo's.....

Also i seriously doubt that the espada can win this battle, no matter how strong they are....they might cause some serious damage and take out one or two captains but thats abt it....we judge the espada's strength from their battles against average captains and I dont think there was ever a point at which they seemed like loosing....except for kenpachi, but thats just the way he fights....the guy likes to get cut up.....we havent reaaly seen how strong some of the captains are...

Xigurd
June 27, 2008, 10:34 PM
8 Vaizards, since 4 of them are ex-captains and one of them obviously above average Shinji, if other facters join such as Isshin, Ryūken, Kisuke and Yoruichi it will be fun fight against 3 Espada and Hollow-captains.

mdp
June 27, 2008, 10:58 PM
FYI stark was only sneezing the ash affects his alergys. look it up in the databook.

mestizo311
June 27, 2008, 11:10 PM
Vasto Lordes fighting abilities are greater than that of a captain. And that's without gaining their shinigami powers. I'm sure Aizen knows that his top 3 espada's will take care of the captains with no problems. I think the vizards will be the ones to take them down.

toussaintac
June 27, 2008, 11:15 PM
Vasto Lordes fighting abilities are greater than that of a captain. And that's without gaining their shinigami powers. I'm sure Aizen knows that his top 3 espada's will take care of the captains with no problems. I think the vizards will be the ones to take them down.

We were never sure if Hitsugaya was talking about Vasto Lorde Arrancars or just plain Vasto Lorde Hollows. Even still when Stark grabbed Orihime, Ichigo and Kenpachi weren't overly shocked by his spirit pressure (maybe by his speed). So, I still don't see those 3 killing (well beating since noone ever die) all of the captains.

bladehappy
June 27, 2008, 11:49 PM
So, anyone else notice that Tite has been showing the three Arrancar in the same exact order?

(Left to right) Stark, Barringan, Halibel. If he's going 3-2-1, then Stark is third, etc. Or 1-2-3, etc.

toussaintac
June 28, 2008, 12:03 AM
So, anyone else notice that Tite has been showing the three Arrancar in the same exact order?

(Left to right) Stark, Barringan, Halibel. If he's going 3-2-1, then Stark is third, etc. Or 1-2-3, etc.

But it's originally in japanese so you read from the right. I don't think he's shown them in the same order everytime though. I could be wrong, though.

Doombot
June 28, 2008, 12:15 AM
This pretty much confirms to me that Barrigan is going to be #1. Old person vs. Old person. The epic struggle.

toussaintac
June 28, 2008, 12:27 AM
This pretty much confirms to me that Barrigan is going to be #1. Old person vs. Old person. The epic struggle.

Please god, I don't want to see two old crusties fight each other. I hope Start is #1 so we can see:

Old Busted Joint vs. New Hotness: General Yamamoto takes on the young, carefree, confident Stark

LOL...remember those phrases from Men In Black...gotta love it.

The Last Uchiha
June 28, 2008, 12:30 AM
This pretty much confirms to me that Barrigan is going to be #1. Old person vs. Old person. The epic struggle.

I read a couple months back it was mentioned by Kubo that Stark was Espada #1, I wish I could find the link :darn

But it may be pure speculation as he was the one that seemed more suprised and barely escaped Yamaji's release. Then again, it is usually the more layback guy of the bunch that proves the strongest in Bleach.

It be awesome to see Old dudes duck it out, yet i think Yamamoto has to stay concentrated with kidou so that the fire barrier engulfing Aizen does not diperse. :s

bladehappy
June 28, 2008, 12:32 AM
But it's originally in japanese so you read from the right. I don't think he's shown them in the same order everytime though. I could be wrong, though.

Oops. I meant right to left. Its right to left.


Start -> Barrigan -> Halibel. RIGHT. TO. LEFT. <<;

toussaintac
June 28, 2008, 12:37 AM
I read a couple months back it was mentioned by Kubo that Stark was Espada #1, I wish I could find the link :darn

But it may be pure speculation as he was the one that seemed more suprised and barely escaped Yamaji's release. Then again, it is usually the more layback guy of the bunch that proves the strongest in Bleach.

It be awesome to see Old dudes duck it out, yet i think Yamamoto has to stay concentrated with kidou so that the fire barrier engulfing Aizen does not diperse. :s

Kidou? I thought the fire came from his Shikai?
[hr]

Oops. I meant right to left. Its right to left.


Start -> Barrigan -> Halibel. RIGHT. TO. LEFT. <<;

lol...it's all good. it's late.

poopoomaru
June 28, 2008, 12:41 AM
We were never sure if Hitsugaya was talking about Vasto Lorde Arrancars or just plain Vasto Lorde Hollows. Even still when Stark grabbed Orihime, Ichigo and Kenpachi weren't overly shocked by his spirit pressure (maybe by his speed). So, I still don't see those 3 killing (well beating since noone ever die) all of the captains.

We can make that assumption about spirit pressure, its obvious that Spirit pressure only comes down in surprising and sweat drop inducing amounts when the person wills it down, like flexing a muscle, or when they are in serious combat.

toussaintac
June 28, 2008, 12:52 AM
We can make that assumption about spirit pressure, its obvious that Spirit pressure only comes down in surprising and sweat drop inducing amounts when the person wills it down, like flexing a muscle, or when they are in serious combat.

True. Well, i guess we'll just have to see. I'd hate to see Stark show up and die so quickly though. i like the guy and only seen like 6 panels total of him...lol. Maybe he'll fight for a bit, give some witty remark and then run off.

Yvese
June 28, 2008, 01:36 AM
I dunno, I see Stark being the #1 espada. I like him. He's so laid back and carefree with a touch of humour. Seems like the nicest of the Espada. If he were to fight anyone, I see it being Shunsui. Both of them are so much alike that a battle between the two is inevitable.

Grimjaww
June 28, 2008, 01:46 AM
Please god, I don't want to see two old crusties fight each other. I hope Start is #1 so we can see:

Old Busted Joint vs. New Hotness: General Yamamoto takes on the young, carefree, confident Stark

LOL...remember those phrases from Men In Black...gotta love it.

Na I really want to see Stark vs. Shunsui, they have such similar personalities instead of fighting they will have a drinking competition!!!

Marcius
June 28, 2008, 03:47 AM
I think that this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/15/ picture shows that Stark is going to be no.3, but still no clue about who´s no.1 and no.3 of those two. I don´t really mind who is going to fight who, as long as it´s going to be a close one... just one more thing, isn´t going to be always 2 on 1 (2 gottei 13 captains on 1 espada)? I just hope that at least some of gottei 13 captains are going to die, it would be weird if only espada will.:amuse

neomaster121
June 28, 2008, 04:48 AM
I think that this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/15/ picture shows that Stark is going to be no.3, but still no clue about who´s no.1 and no.3 of those two. I don´t really mind who is going to fight who, as long as it´s going to be a close one... just one more thing, isn´t going to be always 2 on 1 (2 gottei 13 captains on 1 espada)? I just hope that at least some of gottei 13 captains are going to die, it would be weird if only espada will.:amuse

well thats what i thought first on but i think stark is just messing about now i think he might be number one

this chapter was nice and i want too see hitsugya and yamoto fighting side by side. Two opposites in everyway. But very simular. i still believe it will be hitsugya who will replace yamoto when the young ice king is ready.

havoc19
June 28, 2008, 05:02 AM
oh god, forget about the damned rankings and enjoy the characters for who they are, not some damn numbers. Being in the Top 3 alone assures they're no pushovers.

Konkun
June 28, 2008, 06:25 AM
Well, I'm Expecting the Espada to beat SS because what's the point of the Vaizards to pick up their swords and to show up with nothing to do.

neomaster121
June 28, 2008, 06:43 AM
but if ichigo has such trouble against no4 in vizard mode these captains can't win can they?

Serpent
June 28, 2008, 06:59 AM
looks like no chapter next week :(

Seta Soujirou
June 28, 2008, 07:48 AM
The old geezer is gonna be no1 espada, halibel is no2 in my opinion and stark is the 3rd. Looks like the vice captains will battle those espada's attendants while the captains will hog the limelight with top 3 espada.

Seriously, if all 3 espada are to fall here and then...Aizen and co can just die off...the bad guys never have any kill at all...Also the next part will see Ichigo finally triumphing against Ulquiorra while rescuing Inoue.

lordHokage
June 28, 2008, 08:25 AM
The old geezer is gonna be no1 espada, halibel is no2 in my opinion and stark is the 3rd. Looks like the vice captains will battle those espada's attendants while the captains will hog the limelight with top 3 espada.


What do you expect the captains to do when seniority takes precedence? I think Yama-sama is capable of killing the top 3 Espadas all by himself but he’s not going to hog up the limelight. :D

kunai-knight
June 28, 2008, 08:37 AM
I thought you could tell who was the stronger of the espada by how human like they look. Cuz their mask was almost completely removed. I dunno i just figured that as stark has his as a necklace and all the others have it as huge junks all over their face, i thought for sure he'd be strongest.

kaitendragon
June 28, 2008, 09:02 AM
Awsom Chapter. Yama-jin sure ain't laughing no more... Though his battle sytragy is kinda odd. Trapping his Enemies in a cloud of fire for an X-Amount of time... for what reason ? ( Damn you Kubo ! Why do you want to delay the fight! ). In the end, time might just be what Aizen wants in order for his Wildcard to be complete. 'Cause he seem quite sure of what he's doing.

For the Upcoming chapters, since Its Obious that Ichigo in his Current strengh cant beat Ulquirra, I Expect the Hollow in Ichigo ( forgot his name ) will surface.

How is it obvious that Ichigo can't beat Ulquiorra in his current state?? He couldn't do before because he only had 11 seconds, in which he used 10 to gather that Getsuga Tenshou and 1 to fire it and it was over....now he has all the time he needs to gather a strong Getsuga and fire it...plus when he was fighting grimmjaw at places where inoue cheered him or was in danger he seemed extra power, like when inoue said don't die he stopped Grimm with 1 hand without using his eyes, and at the end he took out the "Grimm's strongest attack" when he was back to bankai practically (which hints that he became much stronger through out the fight)...I would go even as far as saying he'll tear apart Ulquiorra if he doesn't release once ichigo puts on his mask this time....

I don't think his hollow will resurface until a really important fight, such as fighting Aizen, then he'll be able to surprise Aizen by having an unexpected power boost in the middle of the fight, since Aizen will think he's already max due to his control of the mask.
[hr]

i do have a question
i dont see neither soifon and yuroichi with a sword..
maybe it my blindness but do they have a shikai and a bankai?

Actually Soifon has already shown her Zanpaktou and her Shikia. If you look back where she fights Youriochi she pulls it out its on her back sideways like Hallibels, and she uses Shikia which turns it into that black and white wrist guard and finger, where she pokes you 2ice at the same places and u instantly die.
[hr]

Man, Yamamoto was impressive. But the real question is how strong are the top 3 espada. Ulquiorra being #4 is really strong, Vaizard Ichigo can't lay a scratch on him. That indicates there is a huge power difference between 5-9 and 1-4, maybe indicating a next level

I don't see how you got to the conclusion that Vizard Ichigo can't lay a scratch on him. In his 11 second battle he forced Ulqiorra to pull out both hands and was still blown away, but given that its only 11 seconds it would say Ichigo could not Harrness his full capabilities at the Hollow form that's why Ulquiorra withstood it so well. Now that he can handle the mask so much more and after his fight with Grimm I think he's ready to kill Ulquiorra with a bit of emotional help from Orihime.

gold349
June 28, 2008, 09:36 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/01, I'm confused it clearly says something strange is going on earth, the little girl looks up and see SS commander and captains and Aizen and Espada. The battle is on earth according to this, I guess they took Karakura to ss and built a mock town is ss bringing that to earth. I was thinking all along that the battle was taking place in ss. Correct me if I'm wrong, I remember Aizen saying he will crush them (SS) and then make the key in there in SS, so where are they?.

kaitendragon
June 28, 2008, 09:56 AM
EXACTLY!!!!!! I'm so tired of hearing people say that Stark is weak. just because Stark had actual reactions doesnt mean that he's not the top espada. I wudnt be surprised if he was the top espada. remember now, vasto lords are hollows that are the most human. Stark seemed pretty fuking human with those reactions so watch out. and hello, didnt we just go over this already? I swear... ALL of you would be like,"OH SNAP!!!!! THAT OLD FART HAS THAT MUCH POWER?! AND ITS JUST HIS DAMN SHIKAI!!!!!!!!". come on now you guys, get over it already. Stark is still bad ass no matter what. having those kind of reactions just match his personality!!:notrust

I agree that the reaction of stark was just his personality to react to everything, but i also believe that he is #3 espada, the reason is NOT because of his reaction but because out of the 3 he was told to retrieve Inoue after Kenpachi defeated Noitra. He normal has #4 Ulquiorra doing the inoue chasing but seeing as how he was stuck in another dimension, the next one on the list is #3 which i believe is stark for that reason.....and i know you can argue that he's #1 and Aizen wanted a guy that he could gaurantee would get the job done, but i would say if #4 could #3 definetly can.
[hr]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/01, I'm confused it clearly says something strange is going on earth, the little girl looks up and see SS commander and captains and Aizen and Espada. The battle is on earth according to this, I guess they took Karakura to ss and built a mock town is ss bringing that to earth. I was thinking all along that the battle was taking place in ss. Correct me if I'm wrong, I remember Aizen saying he will crush them (SS) and then make the key in there in SS, so where are they?.

They fighting right now is on earth...Aizen ment that he will cursh SS now since they are in front of him on earth, and then go to SS to make the key since the Real Karakura town is there.

badluckartist
June 28, 2008, 10:00 AM
I'm fairly sure the captains are completely overlooking the Espada's Fracion- they aren't even putting them in the calculations, and that could be very bad for them. Underestimation seems to be (sadly) a major motif of this manga, and it's always kind of pissed me off at how ridiculously cliche it is.

@Serpent
Love your avatar. Just got into Mushishi and it's already one of my favorite anime ever :3



well thats what i thought first on but i think stark is just messing about now i think he might be number one

this chapter was nice and i want too see hitsugya and yamoto fighting side by side. Two opposites in everyway. But very simular. i still believe it will be hitsugya who will replace yamoto when the young ice king is ready.

I always thought Hitsugaya might get some kinda crazy powerup eventually and become the next Commander General after Yama-jii passes away. Their powers have been noted to be the strongest of their respective elements in all of SS, and their personalities are so no-nonsense and badass.

Although it will be sad to see Hitsugaya grow up- I love how his appearance contrasts so vividly with his personality. I couldn't imagine any other shinigami becoming the new Commander General.

Zeus-Tails
June 28, 2008, 10:16 AM
What do you expect the captains to do when seniority takes precedence? I think Yama-sama is capable of killing the top 3 Espadas all by himself but he’s not going to hog up the limelight. :D

Seeing as none of the top 3 Espada (besides Stark acting goofy as usual; it probably just woke him up because he was half asleep) seemed worried when Yamamoto release his shikai (while Ukitake and Shunsui were ducking for cover), I'm pretty sure Yamamoto isn't going to be owning anyone here. Furthermore, Aizen probably knows what Yama is capable of and he knows what his Espada are capable of and since he's not worried in the least, Yama is in trouble.

You guys need to stop putting off the fraccion. Hitsugaya had to go all-out against Grimmjow's fraccion, so I can see him getting his ass kicked by 1 of the 8 fraccion here. Forget ever getting to fight Gin. The fraccion of Grimmjow were probably pretty close to captain class (meaning they can beat VC) and they were defeat by bankai (with the exception of the weak ones who fought Rukia and Matsumoto), and I think the fraccion of the top 3 Espada are even stronger than Grimmjow's fraccion so I don't think the VCs will stand much of a chance.

Especially Iba. He was kinda on par with Ikkaku in shikai and it took bankai for Ikkaku to beat Edorad, so unless Iba can break out bankai, he's in trouble. Then there's Soi Fon's VC...errr yea, if he defeats anyone, I'm going to write angry letters to Kubo.

Tsukisama
June 28, 2008, 10:36 AM
Seeing as none of the top 3 Espada (besides Stark acting goofy as usual; it probably just woke him up because he was half asleep) seemed worried when Yamamoto release his shikai (while Ukitake and Shunsui were ducking for cover), I'm pretty sure Yamamoto isn't going to be owning anyone here. Furthermore, Aizen probably knows what Yama is capable of and he knows what his Espada are capable of and since he's not worried in the least, Yama is in trouble.

I would not put too much stock into that. Just because the espada don't seem concerned, it does not necesssarily indicate that they are stronger. Practically all of the other espada that we have seen in battle that were later defeated were confident in their abilities before realizing their weakness.


You guys need to stop putting off the fraccion. Hitsugaya had to go all-out against Grimmjow's fraccion, so I can see him getting his ass kicked by 1 of the 8 fraccion here. Forget ever getting to fight Gin. The fraccion of Grimmjow were probably pretty close to captain class (meaning they can beat VC) and they were defeat by bankai (with the exception of the weak ones who fought Rukia and Matsumoto), and I think the fraccion of the top 3 Espada are even stronger than Grimmjow's fraccion so I don't think the VCs will stand much of a chance.

Once Hitsugaya's limiter was taken off, the tide of battle shifted. Plus, as Hitsugaya's opponent commented, Hitsugaya's bankai is still immature and he would be a lot stronger if he was more seasonced. The other SS captains are more experienced and should thus be more capable.


Especially Iba. He was kinda on par with Ikkaku in shikai and it took bankai for Ikkaku to beat Edorad, so unless Iba can break out bankai, he's in trouble.

I agree. I don't expect much from Iba either.


Then there's Soi Fon's VC...errr yea, if he defeats anyone, I'm going to write angry letters to Kubo.

:rofl

cero_tenshou
June 28, 2008, 10:48 AM
i'm thinking that yama would want to take on the top espada himself. and i think he will get defeated. they may not be able to kill yama, but i think they will prove that they are at least stronger than him, and make him unable to attack somehow. but yama might somehow be able to prevent himself from dying. then maybe shunsui and ukitake would attack the top espada, and they will be easily defeated (of course that espada would have already released long before). it is possible that this espada may be on par, or almost on par wit aizen in terms of power, but aizen has psychological control over them. but i think after yama shunsui and ukitake are defeated (if they will be), then yama's wall of fire will disappear. then aizen will order the espada to kill all captains and vcs. then komamura will try to attack tousen with bankai, but the bankai will be destroyed by aizen. then when aizen goes to kill him once and for all, maybe urahara comes and stops his sword. aizen looks at him and says something from the past: " looks like our interesting guest has returned".

lordHokage
June 28, 2008, 11:06 AM
I would not put too much stock into that. Just because the espada don't seem concerned, it does not necesssarily indicate that they are stronger. Practically all of the other espada that we have seen in battle that we later defeated were confident in their abilities before realizing their weakness.


Well said. Not only Aizen is over-confident but his entire team as well and he probably told them that they're a lot stronger the Soul Society. :D

Zeus-Tails
June 28, 2008, 11:15 AM
I would not put too much stock into that. Just because the espada don't seem concerned, it does not necesssarily indicate that they are stronger. Practically all of the other espada that we have seen in battle that we later defeated were confident in their abilities before realizing their weakness.

Well, throughout this manga, whenever a person shows off his power, if his opponent doesn't even seem interested, that means the person showing off is weaker. Usually reiatsu is a way someone shows off but it can also be a special attack.

When Zomari fought Byakuya, when Byakuya pulled out bankai, Zomari almost pissed his pants (if he had any on). Nnoitra almost pissed his pants when Kenpachi took off the ol eyepatch and was forced to release. Szayel looked surprised when Mayuri pulled out his huge bankai (probably because of the sheer ugliness).

Halibel showed the same calmness when Yama released that she showed when Grimmjow and Ichigo were fighting all-out. Since Grimmy is at least 3 ranks below her and Ichigo is probably only a little stronger at the time, she was basically unaffected. I'm not saying that Yama and Grimmy are the same strength. I'm just saying when a fighter in this manga is unaffected/unimpressed when their opponent shows off their power, that means the person showing off is most likely weaker.


Once Hitsugaya's limiter was taken off, the tide of battle shifted. Plus, as Hitsugaya's opponent commented, Hitsugaya's bankai is still immature and he would be a lot stronger if he was more seasonced. The other SS captains are more experienced and should thus be more capable.

He has potential, but he fought Shawlong probably not even a month before this big battle, so I doubt he matured much since and he doesn't exactly have a lot of time to continue maturing since he needs to fight probably the biggest fight of his life right now.


I agree. I don't expect much from Iba either.

I want to have faith in Yama's VC, but the way Ichigo beat him with one hit (no mask used) was kinda pathetic. I guess if Yama's VC, Soi Fon's VC and Iba team up they can clip one of the fraccion's toe nails.

Btw, how are Yama and Hitsugaya going to fight in the same place. Wouldn't Yama inadvertently melt Hitsugaya's ice? I think the SS crew will have to spread out a lot to avoid being accidentally raped by Yama's power.
[hr]

Well said. Not only Aizen is over-confident but his entire team as well and he probably told them that they're a lot stronger the Soul Society. :D

Overconfidence is one thing, but standing unimpressed when SS's strongest shinigami releases (remember Shunsui and Ukitake were pissing their pants when Yama released) shows power. No matter how overconfident you are, if someone is stronger than you shows his power, you'll at least shake. Halibel looked like she was gonna fall asleep, Barragan stood there like nothing happened, and it probably just woke Stark up.

I don't really get why people say Aizen is overconfident. He seems like an analytical person who plans way ahead before acting. Yea, he's arrogant, but if you had uber reiatsu that can make captains piss their pants and a shikai that acts basically like a cheat code in a video game, then you'd be arrogant too.

Another thing, remember when Yama released his fire against Shunsui and Ukitake and other people far away in Sereitei were feeling the reiatsu. Gin and Aizen are standing there like nothing happened. Gin is even chuckling like he always does. When Yama strikes fear in Ukitake and Shunsui (who are in top 4 captains) but doesn't even make Gin nor Aizen wince (probably Tousen neither), then that shows how strong Gin and Aizen are.
[hr]
EDIT: If Gin ever broke out a stick and some marshmallows, I'd love his character forever no matter what happened to him.

Razh
June 28, 2008, 12:00 PM
I'm just saying when a fighter in this manga is unaffected/unimpressed when their opponent shows off their power, that means the person showing off is most likely weaker.


Well, that's true enough, but I hope it won't be that shallow this time.
Those expressions could just as well be poker faces. You have to account personallities too. Stark seems more compassionate and less serious than those two. Barragan is probably a veteran that won't give away any emotions in battle, and Halibel is kinda cold and calm all the time, + half of her face is hidden.
Lol, for all we know, her mouth could be wide open :o

Tsukisama
June 28, 2008, 01:55 PM
Well, throughout this manga, whenever a person shows off his power, if his opponent doesn't even seem interested, that means the person showing off is weaker. Usually reiatsu is a way someone shows off but it can also be a special attack.

When Zomari fought Byakuya, when Byakuya pulled out bankai, Zomari almost pissed his pants (if he had any on). Nnoitra almost pissed his pants when Kenpachi took off the ol eyepatch and was forced to release. Szayel looked surprised when Mayuri pulled out his huge bankai (probably because of the sheer ugliness).

Halibel showed the same calmness when Yama released that she showed when Grimmjow and Ichigo were fighting all-out. Since Grimmy is at least 3 ranks below her and Ichigo is probably only a little stronger at the time, she was basically unaffected. I'm not saying that Yama and Grimmy are the same strength. I'm just saying when a fighter in this manga is unaffected/unimpressed when their opponent shows off their power, that means the person showing off is most likely weaker.

Again not necessarily the case. In each of the espada battles facing captains, the espada did not become panicked or affected in any way in the beginning. Zommari did not initially get worried about Byakuya, but when Byakuya began to overpower him, he became nervous. For a while, Nnoitora was speaking down to Kenpachi, but when Kenpachi began to do things that seemed to really endanger Nnoitora's well-being (first the eye-patch, then the kendo), Nnoitora showed some concern.

At the top espada's level, I would certainly hope that Yamamoto's shikai would not be enough to defeat them, and that does not seem to be the case. Yamamoto has not done anthing yet that has seriously put them into risk of death; so, there is no need for them to act worried.


He has potential, but he fought Shawlong probably not even a month before this big battle, so I doubt he matured much since and he doesn't exactly have a lot of time to continue maturing since he needs to fight probably the biggest fight of his life right now.

I also don't have the highest expectations for Hitsugaya, but given how much of a fan favorite he is, I am sure that Kubo won't let him fare too poorly.


I want to have faith in Yama's VC, but the way Ichigo beat him with one hit (no mask used) was kinda pathetic. I guess if Yama's VC, Soi Fon's VC and Iba team up they can clip one of the fraccion's toe nails.

When Ichigo knocked out Sasakibe, he was in god mode. He had just stopped Kikou-ou (the release of the Soukyoku said to be equivalent to the power of about one million zanpakutou) with his shikai. Ichigo's power has always seemed to fluctuate for me, and at that moment, it must have been at a really high point. Even Renji who had achieved bankai was no match for Byakuya (whom Ichigo would go on to defeat after OHKOing Sasakibe, Oomaeda, and Isane), and I bet Ichigo probably could have knocked him out fairly easily at that moment too.

Sasakibe could also have achieved bankai like Renji (although I would be surprised if he gets this much development). Of the lieutenants present, I imagine that he is probably the most powerful (for what it's worth). If all of the lieutenants teamed up (Sasakibe, Oomaeda, Iba, and Matsumoto), I am sure they could probably handle most of the fraccion.


Btw, how are Yama and Hitsugaya going to fight in the same place. Wouldn't Yama inadvertently melt Hitsugaya's ice? I think the SS crew will have to spread out a lot to avoid being accidentally raped by Yama's power.

They likely will have to move away. Similar to how Shunsui commented to Ukitake when Yamamoto was going to face them, if they stay nearby, everyone will be caught up in Yamamoto's wake. Since we know that Hitsugaya can use the water in the atmosphere for very powerful attacks, he more than anyone will want to move away.

Zeus-Tails
June 28, 2008, 02:06 PM
Again not necessarily the case. In each of the espada battles facing captains, the espada did not become panicked or affected in any way in the beginning. Zommari did not initially get worried about Byakuya, but when Byakuya began to overpower him, he became nervous. For a while, Nnoitora was speaking down to Kenpachi, but when Kenpachi began to do things that seemed to really endanger Nnoitora's well-being (first the eye-patch, then the kendo), Nnoitora showed some concern.

At the top espada's level, I would certainly hope that Yamamoto's shikai would not be enough to defeat them, and that does not seem to be the case. Yamamoto has not done anthing yet that has seriously put them into risk of death; so, there is no need for them to act worried.

Zomari's expression changed as soon as he saw Byakuya's bankai, which is my point. When Zomari saw Byakuya's bankai (which is Byakuya's power), he saw that he was in deep sh*t so he got scared. Same with Nnoitra when he Kenpachi took off the eyepatch. A look of surprise is usually the sign of one thinking he's in deep sh*t against his opponent. The only other time someone looks surprised is when they are actually caught by surprise. Now if Yama is releasing and making a big show (which surprised his fellow captains), by the Espada not showing any emotion, it shows that they aren't impressed nor are they scared and there must be a reason for it.

I feel a captain's shikai should be similar to an Espada's unreleased state and bankai is similar to an Espada's released state. If Yama's shikai ain't doing it for him, he may have to go bankai and then the Espada will simply release if the bankai forces them to do so.


When Ichigo knocked out Sasakibe, he was in god mode. He had just stopped Kikou-ou (the release of the Soukyoku said to be equivalent to the power of about one million zanpakutou) with his shikai. Ichigo's power has always seemed to fluctuate for me, and at that moment, it must have been at a really high point. Even Renji who had achieved bankai was no match for Byakuya (whom Ichigo would go on to defeat after OHKOing Sasakibe, Oomaeda, and Isane), and I bet Ichigo probably could have knocked him out fairly easily at that moment too.

Sasakibe could also have achieved bankai like Renji (although I would be surprised if he gets this much development). Of the lieutenants present, I imagine that he is probably the most powerful (for what it's worth). If all of the lieutenants teamed up (Sasakibe, Oomaeda, Iba, and Matsumoto), I am sure they could probably handle most of the fraccion.

I don't really consider it god-mode. He made a big hero entrance. Rukia said the reason he was able to stop Kikou-ou was because he caught it by surprise and he wouldn't be able to do it a second time (good thing, Ukitake came in time). Ichigo's power fluctuates because of his hollow but his hollow wasn't doing anything at that time.

I don't think the lieutenants teaming up would do anything. There are only 4 lieutenants and 8 fraccion. So the lieutenants are outnumbered 2 to 1. I don't think the lieutenants and fraccion will interfere with the Espada-Captain fights.

toussaintac
June 28, 2008, 02:21 PM
Zomari's expression changed as soon as he saw Byakuya's bankai, which is my point. When Zomari saw Byakuya's bankai (which is Byakuya's power), he saw that he was in deep sh*t so he got scared. Same with Nnoitra when he Kenpachi took off the eyepatch. A look of surprise is usually the sign of one thinking he's in deep sh*t against his opponent. The only other time someone looks surprised is when they are actually caught by surprise. Now if Yama is releasing and making a big show (which surprised his fellow captains), by the Espada not showing any emotion, it shows that they aren't impressed nor are they scared and there must be a reason for it.

I feel a captain's shikai should be similar to an Espada's unreleased state and bankai is similar to an Espada's released state. If Yama's shikai ain't doing it for him, he may have to go bankai and then the Espada will simply release if the bankai forces them to do so.



I don't really consider it god-mode. He made a big hero entrance. Rukia said the reason he was able to stop Kikou-ou was because he caught it by surprise and he wouldn't be able to do it a second time (good thing, Ukitake came in time). Ichigo's power fluctuates because of his hollow but his hollow wasn't doing anything at that time.

I don't think the lieutenants teaming up would do anything. There are only 4 lieutenants and 8 fraccion. So the lieutenants are outnumbered 2 to 1. I don't think the lieutenants and fraccion will interfere with the Espada-Captain fights.

Exactly. They aren't surprised by his Shikai, but Byakuya's bankai surpassed the espada's release when he fought so you never know. We already know bankai is a number times stronger than shikai. I'm 100% sure Yama is not weaker than the espada, trust me. Once Yama goes bankai, it's over. The espada only have one release and they're not stronger than a more seasoned captain's bankai. As a matter of fact, Yama is not even a captain, he's a General...'Nuff said.

Tsukisama
June 28, 2008, 02:43 PM
Zomari's expression changed as soon as he saw Byakuya's bankai, which is my point. When Zomari saw Byakuya's bankai (which is Byakuya's power), he saw that he was in deep sh*t so he got scared. Same with Nnoitra when he Kenpachi took off the eyepatch. A look of surprise is usually the sign of one thinking he's in deep sh*t against his opponent. The only other time someone looks surprised is when they are actually caught by surprise. Now if Yama is releasing and making a big show (which surprised his fellow captains), by the Espada not showing any emotion, it shows that they aren't impressed nor are they scared and there must be a reason for it.

The fights, however, did not begin when Byakuya used bankai or Kenpachi removed his eyepatch. Zommari and Byakuya crossed swords before in a display of sonido and shunpou, and Nnoitora and Kenpachi fought before as well. Practically none of the espada have started out the battles fearful, and it really would not set a good tone for the match if it did from a story point of view.

If the enemy showed signs of weakness from the outset, none of the readers would be looking forward to the fights. They need to be confident for the sake of the readers.

Yamamoto's shikai technique was powerful, but it was at the beginning and it would be bad if the espada started becoming worried at that point. Plus, Yama's technique was not even a lethal maneuver. Perhaps the espada were skilled enough to tell that he was trying to trap them and thus were not bothered by it.


I don't really consider it god-mode. He made a big hero entrance. Rukia said the reason he was able to stop Kikou-ou was because he caught it by surprise and he wouldn't be able to do it a second time (good thing, Ukitake came in time). Ichigo's power fluctuates because of his hollow but his hollow wasn't doing anything at that time.

Rukia is giving an impromptu explanation possibly affected by her negativity. Rukia throughout SS arc was doubtful of Ichigo's actions. She thought she could never defeat Byakuya, but he did. We don't know what would have happened if Ichigo had to face Kikou-ou again. Ichigo still had an expression of confidence, and his amazing powers of will might have let him stave off the great firebird again. Until someone more credible backs up her statement, I am still open to other interpretations.


I don't think the lieutenants teaming up would do anything. There are only 4 lieutenants and 8 fraccion. So the lieutenants are outnumbered 2 to 1. I don't think the lieutenants and fraccion will interfere with the Espada-Captain fights.

I was referring to them ganging up on fraccion, not the four of them going after the 8 fraccion at once. If they tried the latter, they would obviously be defeated, but if they combine their abilities, they should be able to take out any one of the fraccion.

daco_inc
June 28, 2008, 02:58 PM
Why does it seem that most people are assuming the Vaizards will help the Gotei? Shinji has already stated they owe Urahara (who isn't there) and Aizen. And Hiyori has already expressed her dislike for Shinigami and humans (depending on the translation).

Zeus-Tails
June 28, 2008, 03:26 PM
Exactly. They aren't surprised by his Shikai, but Byakuya's bankai surpassed the espada's release when he fought so you never know. We already know bankai is a number times stronger than shikai. I'm 100% sure Yama is not weaker than the espada, trust me. Once Yama goes bankai, it's over. The espada only have one release and they're not stronger than a more seasoned captain's bankai. As a matter of fact, Yama is not even a captain, he's a General...'Nuff said.

People are surprised when someone shows their power. Before Byakuya showed bankai all they did was run around and Zomari took control with his release ability. When Byakuya went bankai, Zomari probably thought "Uh oh this could kill me," which is why he gives the shocked look.

Saying once Yama goes bankai, it's over is very ignorant of the story. Yama has been hyped up but by his own captains. Yes, he is probably the strongest captain (now that Aizen is gone from SS), but that doesn't mean he's automatically stronger then the Espada. We know Vasto Lordes can kick a captains ass and these are arrancar VL (most likely) who are the strongest of Aizen's army. All 3 are probably on Yama's level. We're not sure, but we'll find out. Anyway, saying you 100% think Yama is stronger than all the Espada is kind of getting ahead of yourself. Nothing suggests that right now. By Halibel's expression, not even Yama's shikai impresses her.


The fights, however, did not begin when Byakuya used bankai or Kenpachi removed his eyepatch. Zommari and Byakuya crossed swords before in a display of sonido and shunpou, and Nnoitora and Kenpachi fought before as well. Practically none of the espada have started out the battles fearful, and it really would not set a good tone for the match if it did from a story point of view.

I'm talking about when someone actually shows his true power or part of his true power. Kenpachi's reiatsu went up so much when he took off his eyepatch that it surprised Nnoitra a lot. You don't have to begin the battle fearful. Ukitake and Shunsui stood ready against Yama and they didn't get shocked until Yama actually released SHOWING his power.


If the enemy showed signs of weakness from the outset, none of the readers would be looking forward to the fights. They need to be confident for the sake of the readers.

Enemy showing a sign of weakness from the get-go would be something like Rukia vs Aizen, as standing in the presence of Aizen made her show major weakness. That's because there is a HUGE power gap between them. Only until someone unleashes their true power (which is either raising their reiatsu or releasing) does the factor of surprise/sign of weakness come in.


Yamamoto's shikai technique was powerful, but it was at the beginning and it would be bad if the espada started becoming worried at that point. Plus, Yama's technique was not even a lethal maneuver. Perhaps the espada were skilled enough to tell that he was trying to trap them and thus were not bothered by it.

Saying that Kubo doesn't want to show the Espada being scared at the beginning is a very weak argument in support of Yama. The Espada weren't scared because they have no reason to fear what Yama has showed so far. Period.


I was referring to them ganging up on fraccion, not the four of them going after the 8 fraccion at once. If they tried the latter, they would obviously be defeated, but if they combine their abilities, they should be able to take out any one of the fraccion.

So they are going to team up as 4 to beat one fraccion and the other 7 fraccion are just going to look on and watch their fellow fraccion die? Not likely.

frankwhite4523
June 28, 2008, 03:51 PM
[QUOTE=Zeus-Tails;924940]He has potential, but he fought Shawlong probably not even a month before this big battle, so I doubt he matured much since and he doesn't exactly have a lot of time to continue maturing since he needs to fight probably the biggest fight of his life right now.



Yeah but maybe since SS and urahara are on the same page again he let Hitsugaya and the rest of the captains in his special room to home their skills and hitsugaya bankai probadly has grown alot and maybe it's almost at it's full potential

Grimjaww
June 28, 2008, 04:44 PM
Exactly. They aren't surprised by his Shikai, but Byakuya's bankai surpassed the espada's release when he fought so you never know. We already know bankai is a number times stronger than shikai. I'm 100% sure Yama is not weaker than the espada, trust me. Once Yama goes bankai, it's over. The espada only have one release and they're not stronger than a more seasoned captain's bankai. As a matter of fact, Yama is not even a captain, he's a General...'Nuff said.

I agree with you on all that, but if these 3 espadas are really Vasto Lorde's, than they must have some special ability that no other hollow or arrancar has. I mean they retain their human form once they reach this power level, so they must have something that made Grimmjow try so hard to reach this level.

Devil-buster
June 28, 2008, 05:54 PM
I dont think we should read that much into the reactions....I mean when ichigo showed up at the bridge, ukitake was the one who acted surprised even though both him and byakuya had no idea who it was....and we all know ukitake is stronger than byakuya.....and its not like yamamoto released his reiatsu, just his shikai.....there is a big difference.....a shikai does no tell the extent of one's ability one's ability....

Also about hitsugaya......If u look at the data book, his skills are a match for any other captain...thats is why Yamamoto trusts him with a lot of important missions....and also in the fight with shawlong his strength was reduced by 5 times or more....and when he got it back, shawlong didnt last that long....also he is had plenty of time to improve from then...I mean if ichigo can attain shikai and bankai within a month...an experienced shinigami can achieve much more.....

Grimjaww
June 28, 2008, 06:25 PM
Also about hitsugaya......If u look at the data book, his skills are a match for any other captain...thats is why Yamamoto trusts him with a lot of important missions....and also in the fight with shawlong his strength was reduced by 5 times or more....and when he got it back, shawlong didnt last that long....also he is had plenty of time to improve from then...I mean if ichigo can attain shikai and bankai within a month...an experienced shinigami can achieve much more.....

Ichigo also had the great Urahara Kisuke and Shihouin Yoruichi helping him, and that special zanpaktou doll.

jace89
June 28, 2008, 07:04 PM
Is yammamoto and company already under hypnosis? I remember byakuya saying that any one who has bankai can activate their shikai with saying its name. So is it possible for him to already used it on them?

pjboom
June 28, 2008, 07:04 PM
I dont think we should read that much into the reactions....I mean when ichigo showed up at the bridge, ukitake was the one who acted surprised even though both him and byakuya had no idea who it was....and we all know ukitake is stronger than byakuya.....and its not like yamamoto released his reiatsu, just his shikai.....there is a big difference.....a shikai does no tell the extent of one's ability one's ability....

Also about hitsugaya......If u look at the data book, his skills are a match for any other captain...thats is why Yamamoto trusts him with a lot of important missions....and also in the fight with shawlong his strength was reduced by 5 times or more....and when he got it back, shawlong didnt last that long....also he is had plenty of time to improve from then...I mean if ichigo can attain shikai and bankai within a month...an experienced shinigami can achieve much more.....

Wasn't Hitsugaya himself who said that if it weren't for the surprise element, they may have lost against the fraciones?

If the top 3 aren't unreasonely strong, I will seriously doubt about anything said in the series.
We were told that a Vasto lord is as strong as a captain. Considering that an arrancar has his power exponencially increased (adjuchas are shit, not a treat even for a VC, but strong Adjuchas arrancar are as powerfull as a captain) they have to be extremly strong.
If not, that would mean that Kubo is more interested in the Fans request to see their loved Capitan to kick some arrancar ass, leaving aside a coherent story.

And to me, it would be a shame that the 3 top were owned by Yama alone, considering that there is the royal guard waiting for them upthere.

toussaintac
June 28, 2008, 07:27 PM
Wasn't Hitsugaya himself who said that if it weren't for the surprise element, they may have lost against the fraciones?

If the top 3 aren't unreasonely strong, I will seriously doubt about anything said in the series.
We were told that a Vasto lord is as strong as a captain. Considering that an arrancar has his power exponencially increased (adjuchas are shit, not a treat even for a VC, but strong Adjuchas arrancar are as powerfull as a captain) they have to be extremly strong.
If not, that would mean that Kubo is more interested in the Fans request to see their loved Capitan to kick some arrancar ass, leaving aside a coherent story.

And to me, it would be a shame that the 3 top were owned by Yama alone, considering that there is the royal guard waiting for them upthere.

That's the thing. Yamamoto is most likely on the level of Royal Guard or higher. He's not like the other Captains. I'm not saying he'll kill all top three Espada himself (although that would be awesome), but it would validate how strong he seems to be.

@Zeus-Tails
I repeat, yes, I am 100% sure that Yama will not lose to any of the top 3 Espada. This is our first time seeing the General fight. I doubt we see him in his first fight, with the strongest fire zanpakutou, and unknown years of experience and perfection just lose to some espada. Come on. If he can lose to them, then this story is over.

Zeus-Tails
June 28, 2008, 07:36 PM
@Zeus-Tails
I repeat, yes, I am 100% sure that Yama will not lose to any of the top 3 Espada. This is our first time seeing the General fight. I doubt we see him in his first fight, with the strongest fire zanpakutou, and unknown years of experience and perfection just lose to some espada. Come on. If he can lose to them, then this story is over.

Fanboyism. Simple as that.

toussaintac
June 28, 2008, 07:46 PM
Fanboyism. Simple as that.

HA...Yamamoto is not even on my top 10 list. I like Stark about 100 times more than Yamamoto and Stark isn't even number 1 on my list. I'm just realistic. General Yamamoto will not loss to either of those Espada. I just can't rap my mind around either of them being strong enough to have the fight "end quickly" like Aizen said. So, it would seem to me that Aizen either meant Yama is going to kill the espada quickly or Yama's agression will cause him to begin hollowfication if that is what Aizen plans to happen.

pjboom
June 28, 2008, 07:53 PM
That's the thing. Yamamoto is most likely on the level of Royal Guard or higher. He's not like the other Captains. I'm not saying he'll kill all top three Espada himself (although that would be awesome), but it would validate how strong he seems to be.

@Zeus-Tails
I repeat, yes, I am 100% sure that Yama will not lose to any of the top 3 Espada. This is our first time seeing the General fight. I doubt we see him in his first fight, with the strongest fire zanpakutou, and unknown years of experience and perfection just lose to some espada. Come on. If he can lose to them, then this story is over.

Who told you that the espada are noobs? Maybe as Vasto lords they have been even more time wandering in Hueco mundo than Yama.
(That went to Zeus-Tails)


If the 3 espada together, the top 3, almost assured as Vasto, and probably the most powerfull beings in Hueco mundo, powered by arrancar powers can't beat Yama, What's the point of all this? Why all the job to create espadas for only being mere distraccions?

That remember me the case of the Menos, oh god they're so big, so powerfull, almost legend, even Rukia was shocked, and, what the hell?, they are no match for a VC.

I'm starting to dislike this series specially because their lack of any coherency of power.
First a hype, Oh our enemies seems to be soooooo strong, and later theiy are all killed by our super captains, who never lose a fight. My God, kill some captain Kubo.

Another thing that annoys me pretty much is the most probable death of Orihime, when she developed the ability to resurrect, she was condemned, her skill too powerfull to exists in a story.

So after all those battles, with Chad, Rukia, Ishida, Renji ,who almost end nearly dying, the only one, the first casualty will be the non fighter?

The only outcome for this, that I would like, would be Orihime becoming an arrancar, and brainwashed by Aizen. The other two are terrible, Orihime vanishing from the story, or even worse, Ichigo getting killed everytime and constantly resurrected.

PredakingD78
June 28, 2008, 08:03 PM
Yamamoto's fight will be drawn out and epic. Its gonna show us why he is Captain Commander. Also, if we see his Bankai 1st, why would we need to see any of the other Captains'? One thing it seems is that people are underestimating the Captains' Bankai(s). Ichigo uses his Bankai at the start of almost every fight. Then he gets beat down a little calls upon his mask and barely wins. IMHO, this takes away from the importance of Bankai in general. Everyone else uses thier final release as a last resort or on an as needed basis. Thats why many are looking for Ichigo to have another power-up, because his final release doesn't cut it.

With Bankai and his mask, what chance would Ichigo have to win a fight with Shunsui, Ukitake, Yoruichi, Urahara, Isshin or even Mayuri? Any of them would likely crush him, with the execption of Mayuri who'd just out smart him. Ichigo beat the 6th espada and probally could have barely defeated the 5th. He is about to fight the 4th whom was aware that he and Yammi could not defeat Urahara and Yoruichi.

I'm sorry, I can't put that much faith in the top 3 espada. Yeah, I know the whole Vasto Lorde thing, but if they are so freakng awesome, who encountered a VL in the past? How was it defeat it? And who lived to tell the story? If a VL was in HM, it obviously doesn't wanna be found, otherwise it would run the place. When found, how would Nel & Norita convince it to come with them and follow Aizen if they couldn't defeat it? If Espada #3 & #5 could defeat a VL, whats the point of having one? I personally believe that the Vasto Lorde thing will just fade away like the origins of the Sōkyoku

toussaintac
June 28, 2008, 08:04 PM
Fanboys always use the defense "I don't even like this character" to make it seem they know what they're talking about. The way you built up Yama in your post (like you want to fellatio him) and then said "some Espada" shows you're trying to downplay the top Espada without knowing what they can do.

The top Espada aren't afraid of Yama and none of them reacted like Shunsui and Ukitake did. Aizen is falling asleep. You can't rap your mind around any of the Espada ending the fight quickly...you know why? Because you're a Yama fanboy. Say you don't like Yama all you want, but the way you post about him says otherwise.

Fanboyism. Posts are to be ignored.

LOL..You crack me up. Why are you mad because I strongly disagree with you? I won't stoop to your level with the name-calling and other various insults because I'm too old and mature for that. Like I said, I don't really care for Yama. I've been on this forum for a while and I havent once talked about Yama until people starting saying he would be easily defeated by Espada. He's a general. I don't see him losing.

lordHokage
June 28, 2008, 08:09 PM
Overconfidence is one thing, but standing unimpressed when SS's strongest shinigami releases (remember Shunsui and Ukitake were pissing their pants when Yama released) shows power. No matter how overconfident you are, if someone is stronger than you shows his power, you'll at least shake. Halibel looked like she was gonna fall asleep, Barragan stood there like nothing happened, and it probably just woke Stark up.

I don't really get why people say Aizen is overconfident. He seems like an analytical person who plans way ahead before acting. Yea, he's arrogant, but if you had uber reiatsu that can make captains piss their pants and a shikai that acts basically like a cheat code in a video game, then you'd be arrogant too.

Another thing, remember when Yama released his fire against Shunsui and Ukitake and other people far away in Sereitei were feeling the reiatsu. Gin and Aizen are standing there like nothing happened. Gin is even chuckling like he always does. When Yama strikes fear in Ukitake and Shunsui (who are in top 4 captains) but doesn't even make Gin nor Aizen wince (probably Tousen neither), then that shows how strong Gin and Aizen are.



When it comes to expression, to each it own. Gin and Aizen don’t show any expression but Shinsui and Jushiro do in every situation, so you can’t say they were afraid of Yama-sama reiatsu because that’s not true. The reason why Aizen acts the way he does because of the great power of hypnosis and whatever Aizen-sama says, Espada do even if he tells them not to show any emotions. :p



Exactly. They aren't surprised by his Shikai, but Byakuya's bankai surpassed the espada's release when he fought so you never know. We already know bankai is a number times stronger than shikai. I'm 100% sure Yama is not weaker than the espada, trust me. Once Yama goes bankai, it's over. The espada only have one release and they're not stronger than a more seasoned captain's bankai. As a matter of fact, Yama is not even a captain, he's a General...'Nuff said.


Well said. I couldn't have said it better, there is a huge power difference between Captain and General. :D

pjboom
June 28, 2008, 08:12 PM
Yamamoto's fight will be drawn out and epic. Its gonna show us why he is Captain Commander. Also, if we see his Bankai 1st, why would we need to see any of the other Captains'? One thing it seems is that people are underestimating the Captains' Bankai(s). Ichigo uses his Bankai at the start of almost every fight. Then he gets beat down a little calls upon his mask and barely wins. IMHO, this takes away from the importance of Bankai in general. Everyone else uses thier final release as a last resort or on an as needed basis. Thats why many are looking for Ichigo to have another power-up, because his final release doesn't cut it.

With Bankai and his mask, what chance would Ichigo have to win a fight with Shunsui, Ukitake, Yoruichi, Urahara, Isshin or even Mayuri? Any of them would likely crush him, with the execption of Mayuri who'd just out smart him. Ichigo beat the 6th espada and probally could have barely defeated the 5th. He is about to fight the 4th whom was aware that he and Yammi could not defeat Urahara and Yoruichi.

I'm sorry, I can't put that much faith in the top 3 espada. Yeah, I know the whole Vasto Lorde thing, but if they are so freakng awesome, who encountered a VL in the past? How was it defeat it? And who lived to tell the story? If a VL was in HM, it obviously doesn't wanna be found, otherwise it would run the place. When found, how would Nel & Norita convince it to come with them and follow Aizen if they couldn't defeat it? If Espada #3 & #5 could defeat a VL, whats the point of having one? I personally believe that the Vasto Lorde thing will just fade away like the origins of the Sōkyoku

Well, nobody told you that they had to be defeated to join, they were only ordered to find them.
Perhaps when they saw how mere Adjuchas had improved so much, they were tempted by the thirst of power.
Or in the other hand, Vasto Lord=Captain=Adjucha arrancar, so it's not so strange for a Vasto to loss to 2 Captains, but a Vasto arrancar, that's a whole different thing.

toussaintac
June 28, 2008, 08:17 PM
Yamamoto's fight will be drawn out and epic. Its gonna show us why he is Captain Commander. Also, if we see his Bankai 1st, why would we need to see any of the other Captains'? One thing it seems is that people are underestimating the Captains' Bankai(s). Ichigo uses his Bankai at the start of almost every fight. Then he gets beat down a little calls upon his mask and barely wins. IMHO, this takes away from the importance of Bankai in general. Everyone else uses thier final release as a last resort or on an as needed basis. Thats why many are looking for Ichigo to have another power-up, because his final release doesn't cut it.

With Bankai and his mask, what chance would Ichigo have to win a fight with Shunsui, Ukitake, Yoruichi, Urahara, Isshin or even Mayuri? Any of them would likely crush him, with the execption of Mayuri who'd just out smart him. Ichigo beat the 6th espada and probally could have barely defeated the 5th. He is about to fight the 4th whom was aware that he and Yammi could not defeat Urahara and Yoruichi.

I'm sorry, I can't put that much faith in the top 3 espada. Yeah, I know the whole Vasto Lorde thing, but if they are so freakng awesome, who encountered a VL in the past? How was it defeat it? And who lived to tell the story? If a VL was in HM, it obviously doesn't wanna be found, otherwise it would run the place. When found, how would Nel & Norita convince it to come with them and follow Aizen if they couldn't defeat it? If Espada #3 & #5 could defeat a VL, whats the point of having one? I personally believe that the Vasto Lorde thing will just fade away like the origins of the Sōkyoku

I agree. Also, the reason for Ichigo needing all the extra power is because he has far less battle experience and hasn't really mastered his bankai (remember most captains take them a ridiculous amount of training to get bankai and then another ridiculous amount of years to actually master). Ichigo needs raw power to fight until he learns how to master and focus it. He's like a jack of all trades, basically. He's very inexperienced with all of his powers.

PredakingD78
June 28, 2008, 08:34 PM
"Well, nobody told you that they had to be defeated to join, they were only ordered to find them"

Can't argue with that to much either way, but I guess my lack of faith in the VL comes from the fact that we've only hear about them 1 or 2 times; Once from Hitsuguya and the other from Nell & Nnoitra. And it seems that the series has just drifted away from the idea. The top 3 could be VL, but since we have nothing offical, we have to assume they are not.

If all of the Espada were converted by Aizen, none of them would have the experience as Yamamoto. They wouldn't have received their Shinigami powers until after the SS arc ended. Thus, how expericed can they really be with their new found Shinigami powers? Just like Ichigo can't fire Ceros and such, the same can be said about the Espada. And while raw power does carry you pretty far. Histuguya proves that experience (or lack their of) can fill or widen that gap.

Personally, I'd like to see Hollow Ichigo take over in the next fight, own and devour emo-spada Ulquiorra. Then open a door to the real world and rip both espada and captains an new one until Isshin or Urahara arrives to stop him. I can dream can't I?

toussaintac
June 28, 2008, 08:45 PM
Also, does anybody know if Aizen is aware that the Vizards are alive and well?

lordHokage
June 28, 2008, 09:00 PM
Yamamoto's fight will be drawn out and epic. Its gonna show us why he is Captain Commander. Also, if we see his Bankai 1st, why would we need to see any of the other Captains'? One thing it seems is that people are underestimating the Captains' Bankai(s). Ichigo uses his Bankai at the start of almost every fight. Then he gets beat down a little calls upon his mask and barely wins. IMHO, this takes away from the importance of Bankai in general. Everyone else uses thier final release as a last resort or on an as needed basis. Thats why many are looking for Ichigo to have another power-up, because his final release doesn't cut it.

With Bankai and his mask, what chance would Ichigo have to win a fight with Shunsui, Ukitake, Yoruichi, Urahara, Isshin or even Mayuri? Any of them would likely crush him, with the execption of Mayuri who'd just out smart him. Ichigo beat the 6th espada and probally could have barely defeated the 5th. He is about to fight the 4th whom was aware that he and Yammi could not defeat Urahara and Yoruichi.

I'm sorry, I can't put that much faith in the top 3 espada. Yeah, I know the whole Vasto Lorde thing, but if they are so freakng awesome, who encountered a VL in the past? How was it defeat it? And who lived to tell the story? If a VL was in HM, it obviously doesn't wanna be found, otherwise it would run the place. When found, how would Nel & Norita convince it to come with them and follow Aizen if they couldn't defeat it? If Espada #3 & #5 could defeat a VL, whats the point of having one? I personally believe that the Vasto Lorde thing will just fade away like the origins of the Sōkyoku



I agree. Also, the reason for Ichigo needing all the extra power is because he has far less battle experience and hasn't really mastered his bankai (remember most captains take them a ridiculous amount of training to get bankai and then another ridiculous amount of years to actually master). Ichigo needs raw power to fight until he learns how to master and focus it.


Well said. General Yamamoto has hundreds or maybe thousands of years of battle experience where as Ichigo have a few months. :D

kaitendragon
June 28, 2008, 10:38 PM
That's the thing. Yamamoto is most likely on the level of Royal Guard or higher. He's not like the other Captains. I'm not saying he'll kill all top three Espada himself (although that would be awesome), but it would validate how strong he seems to be.

@Zeus-Tails
I repeat, yes, I am 100% sure that Yama will not lose to any of the top 3 Espada. This is our first time seeing the General fight. I doubt we see him in his first fight, with the strongest fire zanpakutou, and unknown years of experience and perfection just lose to some espada. Come on. If he can lose to them, then this story is over.

Who ever disagree with this statement must also agree that Azien can't defeat thetop 3 SS Captains, because Yama is the counter opposite of Aizen if Aizen can defeat top 3 SS captains not including Yama, then Yama can defeat top 3 espada without Aizen's intervention...

Freeloadersan
June 28, 2008, 10:40 PM
Also, does anybody know if Aizen is aware that the Vizards are alive and well?

There is a good chance he knows of Shinji in the very least I would say.This (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/236/13/) page and the next one show that both Grimmjaw and Ulquiorra have seen him.

Quetz
June 29, 2008, 12:05 AM
IMO Aizen is confident that ulquiorra will be utterly defeated, leaving orihime to reject the existance of the hougyoku, which would remove the vaizard's abilities, probably ichigo's hollow abilities, etc

Karma
June 29, 2008, 12:26 AM
I think Ichigo going to lose to the 4th Espada.. But when he's about to get kill.. IS hollow return and kill the 4th Espada...

I think Ichigo going to give in, because he think the girl is dead or he think there is no other way he can save anyone being as weak as he his.. The Hollow side going to teach the 4th Espada what was is mistake by letting Ichigo live.. he's going to say it's been a while since i walk around freely... And he going to say this girl must be the reason why he let me take charge.. she must be very important to him... blah blah... he going to be the one that open the space rip using is hollow power...

Yvese
June 29, 2008, 12:29 AM
IMO Aizen is confident that ulquiorra will be utterly defeated, leaving orihime to reject the existance of the hougyoku, which would remove the vaizard's abilities, probably ichigo's hollow abilities, etcNo, it wouldn't.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.12/03/

Here we can clearly see the Hogyuko did nothing at all to help Shinji and the others, which means even if Orihime rejected the existance of it, nothing would happen.

Tsukisama
June 29, 2008, 12:55 AM
People are surprised when someone shows their power. Before Byakuya showed bankai all they did was run around and Zomari took control with his release ability. When Byakuya went bankai, Zomari probably thought "Uh oh this could kill me," which is why he gives the shocked look.

People are surprised or worried when someone shows power that is unexpected or greater than their own. Although Byakuya before using his bankai was "running around," both he and Zommari were displaying their abilities, and until Byakuya displayed something that Zommari realized to be greater than his own abilities, Zommari was confident.


Saying once Yama goes bankai, it's over is very ignorant of the story. Yama has been hyped up but by his own captains. Yes, he is probably the strongest captain (now that Aizen is gone from SS), but that doesn't mean he's automatically stronger then the Espada. We know Vasto Lordes can kick a captains ass and these are arrancar VL (most likely) who are the strongest of Aizen's army. All 3 are probably on Yama's level. We're not sure, but we'll find out. Anyway, saying you 100% think Yama is stronger than all the Espada is kind of getting ahead of yourself. Nothing suggests that right now. By Halibel's expression, not even Yama's shikai impresses her.

Yamamoto being the strongest captain does not mean that he is necessarily stronger than the espada, while the espada are not necessarily stronger than Yamamoto either. We don't know anything concerning their relative power levels, and thus all is conjecture. You are incorrect that I 100% think Yama is stronger than all the espada. It is all just my opinion of which situation I think is most probable, but I am always aware that, as it has not been confirmed, anything is possible.

I believe that Yamamoto is probably stronger than the espada due to his characterization as such a powerful character; I believe he is stronger because I think Yamamoto is likely on par with Aizen, because I think Aizen is stronger than the espada, and because I don't think the espada are VL. All of this is conjecture.


I'm talking about when someone actually shows his true power or part of his true power. Kenpachi's reiatsu went up so much when he took off his eyepatch that it surprised Nnoitra a lot. You don't have to begin the battle fearful. Ukitake and Shunsui stood ready against Yama and they didn't get shocked until Yama actually released SHOWING his power.

"True power" does not seem to be what induces surprise or fear in opponents in Bleach. If Kenpachi had fought with his eyepatch off the entire time, Nnoitora may not have shown distress, since even without his patch,, Kenpachi could not slay Nnoitora without using both hands. If the "true power" or full extent of the power is not above the opponent's expectations, then it won't elicit a fearful response.


Enemy showing a sign of weakness from the get-go would be something like Rukia vs Aizen, as standing in the presence of Aizen made her show major weakness. That's because there is a HUGE power gap between them. Only until someone unleashes their true power (which is either raising their reiatsu or releasing) does the factor of surprise/sign of weakness come in.

I agree that showing a sign of weakness at the beginning typically signifies a substantial power difference between combatants; however, the sign of weakness seems to come from a suprising display of strength or a display of superior strength.


Saying that Kubo doesn't want to show the Espada being scared at the beginning is a very weak argument in support of Yama. The Espada weren't scared because they have no reason to fear what Yama has showed so far. Period.

It was never meant to be an argument in support of Yamamoto being stronger but a counterargument to your position that the lack of fear/awe displayed by the espada means that they are stronger than Yamamoto. With the exception of Stark (whose reaction could be explained in a variety of ways), the espada (and fraccion) did not seem to be surprised or fearful of Yamamoto's shikai technique. This could mean two possible things: 1) they are powerful not to feel threatened by Yamamoto's shikai, or 2) they could recognize that the technique was non-lethal and was only meant to cage them but not kill them. Either way, it does not mean that they are more powerful than Yamamoto. (It also does not mean Yamamoto is more powerful, leaving only theory and opinion as I prevciously stated.)


So they are going to team up as 4 to beat one fraccion and the other 7 fraccion are just going to look on and watch their fellow fraccion die? Not likely.

Again, this was just a counterargument to another of your statements: that Sasakibe, Iba, and Oomaeda together would not be able to take down a fraccion. I disagreed with that and proposed that they could (and if in that hypothetical situation of teaming up, why not add Matsumoto too because she is there). In that situation of them teaming up, I was suggesting that the four of them together should probably be able to take out any one of the fraccion.

Most likely, they would not team up. There is not much logistical reason for the lieutenants to abandon their captains and arbitrarily start doing combinations/team-ups with each other; just as it is not likely that all of the fraccion would cooperate with each other.

(There has never been given a sense of great comradery among the ranks of Aizen's arrancar army. Why would Barragan's fraccion suddenly start helping Halibel's? They probably don't have any allegiance to one another and don't really care if the other fraccion die aside from perhaps those under the same espada. So, if Stark's one fraccion was getting pummelled, I do think the other fraccion present probably would not assist her, but again it was not meant to be an actual argument, only a counterargument.)

gundam_akira
June 29, 2008, 01:21 AM
How about this? Plot within plot, Aizen still want Orihime to revive the hougyoku but he knows that Orihime has her own plans and won't comply...
Thus, he pretend to start a war with S.S on the losing side, esp. if Ichigo is in danger of dying, Orihime will restore the hougyoku to power up Ichigo (and maybe, the rest of S.S) by fully removing their boundaries...
However, Aizen would take it away from her before S.S powers up but maybe, Ichigo will have a chance to power up...(I dun know...)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, if the expressions of the three Espadas are any indication of their powers, it seems that Halibel and Barragan looks quite strong as they dun seem to be impressed with Yama's Shikai. In fact, Halibel looks the least concerned among the trio...

If so, why did Nnoitra always finds trouble with Nel because she is a lady but not Halibel who seems even more formidable and higher ranking than Nel?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do agree with some who said their reaction may not be a true indication of their real powers. Look at Gin, during the S.S arc, Gin appears to be an evil with average power. However, we now knows he's hell of a strong character, just that he's enjoyed playing the fool.

Yabe
June 29, 2008, 01:43 AM
Orihime need a good beating for being so useless in time of need, so killing her off is a good thing for her character development. She would definetly receive a soul burial and search for her brother who would eventually beat strength of character into her. If that is Kubo-sama plans for her, I fully agree. :D

No, I disagree, that would be too hurting for Orihime's fans. :( I see those emotional moments differrently, I suspect Ulquiorra has had some doubts in killing Orihime. :noworry (although through many doubts...)


The greatest flaw of this manga is that the protaganists never die, thus failing to emphasize the villification of the antagonists. Honestly since the main characters don't go to school anyway it wouldn't kill them to kill of Orihime and make her live in Soul Society rather than the real world.

Nah, then try to forget the fact about the protaganists never die and pretend to not seeing through Kubo's plans :amuse It's just fun to see how Kubo will solve his knots from now - at this state of Aizen being overly smart and those powerful, badass Espadas - and have his story ends in the most reasonable way a happy Shonen manga could. Also poor Tatsuki, if Kubo really means to forbid Orihime from going to school! I'll be very very sunk if this Orihime situation won't be sorted out well. :darn

hyn_pride93
June 29, 2008, 02:13 AM
How about this? Plot within plot, Aizen still want Orihime to revive the hougyoku but he knows that Orihime has her own plans and won't comply...
Thus, he pretend to start a war with S.S on the losing side, esp. if Ichigo is in danger of dying, Orihime will restore the hougyoku to power up Ichigo (and maybe, the rest of S.S) by fully removing their boundaries...
However, Aizen would take it away from her before S.S powers up but maybe, Ichigo will have a chance to power up...(I dun know...)

Funny that you say that. I was thinking that too. That Aizen does still in fact need her to revive the Hougyoku and that he'll end up taking it away from her and probably killing her off before she does any damage (good for SS) that Aizen will end up needing to fix.


BTW, if the expressions of the three Espadas are any indication of their powers, it seems that Halibel and Barragan looks quite strong as they dun seem to be impressed with Yama's Shikai. In fact, Halibel looks the least concerned among the trio...

If so, why did Nnoitra always finds trouble with Nel because she is a lady but not Halibel who seems even more formidable and higher ranking than Nel?

if Halibel is actually the number one espada I wudnt be all that surprised to tell the truth. When the time comes that all their numbers and holes/masks are shown I'm gonna be pretty crazy because I know that there will be some serious power shows afterwards.

and another explanation to why Noi used to make trouble to Nel was because he knew that she wasnt one that likes to fight and used that to his advantage. so, he was prob thinking that if he were to kill Nel then he would automatically be promoted to a higher ranking and power. which is exactly what happened. he went from 8 to 5 after getting rid of her and throwing her out of HM. and since Szayel was also apart of the plan he was also moved up the "food chain".[/QUOTE]


I do agree with some who said their reaction may not be a true indication of their real powers. Look at Gin, during the S.S arc, Gin appears to be an evil with average power. However, we now knows he's hell of a strong character, just that he's enjoyed playing the fool.

idk why people always think that if they have some wack job reaction to someone else's powers then that makes them weaker. thats one of THE lamest things that I've ever heard. they just need to get over it. I know for a fact that all of us here have watched/read other anime/manga and have seen the same exact thing. but it turns out that the character was actually powerful. for example, if u read Vampire Knight then you would understand it. one of the main characters--> Chairman Cross is the type that likes to play around and be a big GOOF and be all dramatic, but he's really skilled and powerful. whenever a (important) character shows a goof expression that just means that they are prob trying to distract the opponent by confusing them into thinking that they're current stage of power is enough to kill/defeat the opponent.

wrstljr
June 29, 2008, 03:19 AM
Apparently Kubo needs an extra week to make-up whatever hes going to sloppily throw at us next....sigh

How the mighty have fallen.

hyn_pride93
June 29, 2008, 03:32 AM
hey watch out now. we dont know for sure that it'll be shitty. who knows, what if he's been working on this for a while now and just wants more time to revise.

lordHokage
June 29, 2008, 09:09 AM
No, I disagree, that would be too hurting for Orihime's fans. :( I see those emotional moments differrently, I suspect Ulquiorra has had some doubts in killing Orihime. :noworry (although through many doubts...)


Me too. Ulquiorra maybe bluffing at least I hope so, killing Orihime doesn’t benefit him or Aizen. I think old man Zangetsu and Ken-chan's motivation would play a huge role in Ichigo defeating Ulquiorra. :D

s c i p i o 7
June 29, 2008, 09:29 AM
no kubo doesnt need time off ...it just what they said when no next chapter is coming...
I think kubo has alot of potential in the next chapters , and I'm guessing we're getting closer to the final battles..and end of bleach

GOOMOONRYONG
June 29, 2008, 10:31 AM
As far the ranking of the top 3 espada goes everytime their names have been mentioned or their pictures have been shown its gone stark, barragan, and halibel. I personally think that halibel is the number 3 espada because nel was the number 3 before her accident and she had to be replaced just my thought. Between Barragan and Stark i originally thought barragan was the number 1 because of his crown which made him "king" in a sense. But as long as Stark or Barragan is number 1 i will be happy i dont see Halibel being number 1 but thats just my opinion

toussaintac
June 29, 2008, 10:57 AM
As far the ranking of the top 3 espada goes everytime their names have been mentioned or their pictures have been shown its gone stark, barragan, and halibel. I personally think that halibel is the number 3 espada because nel was the number 3 before her accident and she had to be replaced just my thought. Between Barragan and Stark i originally thought barragan was the number 1 because of his crown which made him "king" in a sense. But as long as Stark or Barragan is number 1 i will be happy i dont see Halibel being number 1 but thats just my opinion

THAT'S SO SEXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LMAO JK

I don't want the old crusty, boring, grumpy Barragan being the top espada. The espada need Stark a.k.a New Hotness as their top guy. Halibel a.k.a. Ms. Boobastic should be number 2 and Barragan a.k.a Old Busted Joint should be numero tres.

hitokugutsu
June 29, 2008, 12:22 PM
I'm actually looking forward to Ulquiorra's fight. He's one the best characters of Bleach, both in design and personality.
My biggest concern will be that this fight will turn out like Grimjoww's fight: Orohime wil stand at the sidelines spamming " Kurosaki-kun...." giving Ichigo the strength he needs. Screw that. We need to see some inner hollow or Zangetsu action if Ichigo wants a believable victory

goldb
June 29, 2008, 01:42 PM
@hitokugutsu: damn straight!!! no offence to anyone out there but... i'm starting to get tired of those fights the protagonists fight but their own will and strength isn't enough to defeat their oponent and so the other characters have to encourage and cheer for them to win...i don't wanna see that with ichigo anymore...i've seen it with too many mangas

Doombot
June 29, 2008, 01:56 PM
The espada number debate has started again. Great! Anyways.. I hope Stark is 3rd because everyone likes him. Just because your laid back and lazy doesn't make you auto #1. Barrigan clearly has experience on his side and I wouldn't be suprised of him being the first Arrancar or the only Vasto Lord. Vasto Lords come from the darkest regions of HM so one would judge them probably being rather old.

Sa-sori
June 29, 2008, 02:25 PM
Stark is number one. The old guy has 4 fraccion so he's 2. Halibel has 3 so she's 3. Finally Stark has one so he's #1.

winterwyrm
June 29, 2008, 02:30 PM
Huh? Your logic escapes me Sa-sori... What does that make Noitorra then, who had one fraccion as well?

goldb
June 29, 2008, 02:32 PM
that's not how it works but i don't disagree with you though...just waits to be seen... the Kubo-san has done a good job not giving anything away in terms of the remaining espada ranks...their behaviour shows all of them to be very calm and collected when faced with danger, which is a sign of someone's strength..but I can't wait to see them in action...

vintagemistakes
June 29, 2008, 02:49 PM
I personaly see no reason what-so-ever in placing any credence in character reactions or lack there of to Yamamoto's
power.

If we look at the Shinigami's... it looks more like to me that they were more surprised that Yamamato acted so quickly and not in awe of the power. If you look back at the SS arc, Yamamoto basically stood around, waiting for everything to play out before he made his move. In this case it was the complete opposite... he initiated the action while the others were just
contemplating possible moves. Also lets not forget that the other shinigami were standing right next to him when he released. they had little warning and could of been incinerated. I don't know about you... but I would certainly have the look of shock on my face if I was was standing next him.

As for the Espada... who cares what kind of expression they have. Should we expect them to fall to their knees in awe of the awesomeness of someones Shikai release. They are or should be experienced fighters... so getting all emotional over something like Yamamotos Shikai really shouldn't affect them. If you look at two boxers at their weigh-in, even if one guys a chump and has no chance of defeating the other guy, does he cower before him? No... He puts on a stone cold face and tries to act as tough as the other guy. I'm not saying that this is the case... but facial expressions can be dismissive at best.

toussaintac
June 29, 2008, 02:57 PM
Well i mean come on we saw his fraccion in one of the chapters practically giving him a handjob lol. Luuuudaaaaa haha

Wow. I completely forgot about that. Also, is it me or does seem that Stark hasn't shown any killing intent yet. He looks so gone in his head...lol.
[hr]

I personaly see no reason what-so-ever in placing any credence in character reactions or lack there of to Yamamoto's
power.

If we look at the Shinigami's... it looks more like to me that they were more surprised that Yamamato acted so quickly and not in awe of the power. If you look back at the SS arc, Yamamoto basically stood around, waiting for everything to play out before he made his move. In this case it was the complete opposite... he iniciated the action while the others were just
contemplating possible moves. Also lets not forget that the other shinigami were standing right next to him when he released. they had little warning and could of been incinerated. I don't know about you... but I would certainly have the look of shock on my face if I was was standing next him.

As for the Espada... who cares what kind of expression they have. Should we expect them to fall to their knees in awe of the awesomeness of someones Shikai release. They are or should be experienced fighters... so getting all emotional over something like Yamamotos Shikai really shouldn't affect them. If you look at two boxers at their weigh-in, even if one guys is a chump and has no chance of defeating the other guy, does he cower before him? No... He puts on a stone cold face and tries to act as tough as the other guy. I'm not saying that this is the case... but facial expressions can be dismissive at best.

Yeah, Shunsui and Ukitake were right there when he released. No point in standing right there and getting hit by it when you can move out of the way. Only reason they were surprised is because he released right by them without much warning or time to get back. It's about to get real toasty!!

GOOMOONRYONG
June 29, 2008, 02:58 PM
Yea he is a carbon copy of shunsui it doesn't seem like he wants to fight and even said "please forgive me true be told i abore such tactics" when he took inoue after noitora was defeated. It would be cool if in some weird way Nel and Stark joined the good guys side but that probably won't happen. I really hope Nel appears in the future to help ichigo and the others out but in her adult form not the annoying child form lol

Doombot
June 29, 2008, 03:06 PM
Nel will sooner or later and if Grimmjow doesn't die soon I'm sure he will. My opinion is that Grimmjow will go good simply so they have a good person to kill off.

toussaintac
June 29, 2008, 03:07 PM
Yea he is a carbon copy of shunsui it doesn't seem like he wants to fight and even said "please forgive me true be told i abore such tactics" when he took inoue after noitora was defeated. It would be cool if in some weird way Nel and Stark joined the good guys side but that probably won't happen. I really hope Nel appears in the future to help ichigo and the others out but in her adult form not the annoying child form lol

Yeah, i think it's kind of been put off with Inoue restoring Nel's mask. There were a few times she could've done it. Maybe she still doesn't know about Nel's mask.

GOOMOONRYONG
June 29, 2008, 03:10 PM
Yea I really hope she comes back at some point and can maintain her adult form for good cause that would be a good addition to the good guy side.

Yvese
June 29, 2008, 03:36 PM
What sucks is there wont be a chapter this week =/

gold349
June 29, 2008, 04:44 PM
Yea I really hope she comes back at some point and can maintain her adult form for good cause that would be a good addition to the good guy side.


It would be great help to everyone if after all this that there are people such as Nell left in HM. Aizen cannot rule over HM indefinitely and his Espada are just his personal army and have been brain washed by him or are following him because they hate shinigami. Maybe Nell and privaron Espada and SS could come to some arrangement other wise they will have to kill all those that have been hygokouyfied. I don't know or have any thoery on how the arrangement could be done after the battle, I can not see Ichigo allowing anyone to touch Nell even if it is SS but something has to come out of it.

Looking at the Espada and understanding how they become vastro, hollow have to consume other hollow and continue, I thought a loss wasn't allowed, I'm not saying that old man Espada has lost or was bitten but he has Scars from fight/battle wouldn't that mean he was injured somehow? wouldn't that have stopped his growth?. I think old man Espada is no.1, Halibell is no.2 and stark is no.3, no reason just my guess, we have seen Stark and Bragans bit of mask left, the only one we can not see any off is Halibel, she could stand next to Aizen, Gin and Tousen and no one would guess she were Arrancar, there is no sign of her mask could she be no.1?

No Quarter
June 29, 2008, 04:49 PM
I always had this constant fanboysih idea about Stark. First of all that he is no. 1. And second that he isn't really the nice guy he appears to be.

Somehow I have this image of Stark in my mind that goes like this. He appears to be a lazy, carefree guy that really doesn't want to get too involved with all of this but in my mind that just how Stark is until he gets into a fight. Once he goes all battle-mode I somehow imagine him to get really ruthless and becoming a cold blooded killing machine. And I don't mean the cool type of strong like Aizen, Yamamoto or Ulquiora but instead completely out of Bleach tradition and actually becoming dead serious and so disturbingly sadistic evil and focused on killing that makes the other top Arrancar go all "Stark is on the move, get the fudge out of his way". Somehow similar to Alucard but not all funny and instead very bleak and really purely evil.

I don't know for some reason I always had this idea about him. It's probably the fanboy in me. But that aside, there are some notions that could support this idea.

1) He IS one of the top 3. Even if he is #3 (which I doubt) he is still extremely strong. So his playful exterior is a facade up to a point. We know how hollows progress and that is by killing other hollows. So that means that Stark DOES get serious quite often. And since he reached the top tier he is obviously very lethal once he gets down to business. Unless he is using killing jokes or something.

2) Pure contrast with everything we've seen so far. I mean both from him and the series as a whole. The closest we've got to evil so far in Bleach is Aizen, but even he is relatively likable as a character. I mean likable in the sense that he is so broken in every possible way that you have to admire him. We've yet to see a character that is really stereotypically evil. Gin simply hasn't done anything bad other than follow Aizen. And the Espada range from stupid, to inferiority complex so far. Plus Stark really seems like the nicest guy out of all the bad guys. Thus I think it would make a nice "twist" if he actually was a ruthless, sadistic, really heartless bastard and not at all likable.

3) Really minor point but check his eyes in the panel where he says "What do you want me to do about it" in the page where his fraccion wakes him up. They are really sharp and snake like. I don't know but to me these eyes show from competence and seriousness (which is a given up to a point) to pure evil intentions.

Doombot
June 29, 2008, 04:55 PM
I always had this constant fanboysih idea about Stark. First of all that he is no. 1. And second that he isn't really the nice guy he appears to be.

Somehow I have this image of Stark in my mind that goes like this. He appears to be a lazy, carefree guy that really doesn't want to get too involved with all of this but in my mind that just how Stark is until he gets into a fight. Once he goes all battle-mode I somehow imagine him to get really ruthless and becoming a cold blooded killing machine. And I don't mean the cool type of strong like Aizen, Yamamoto or Ulquiora but instead completely out of Bleach tradition and actually becoming dead serious and so disturbingly sadistic evil and focused on killing that makes the other top Arrancar go all "Stark is on the move, get the fudge out of his way". Somehow similar to Alucard but not all funny and instead very bleak and really purely evil.

I don't know for some reason I always had this idea about him. It's probably the fanboy in me. But that aside, there are some notions that could support this idea.

1) He IS one of the top 3. Even if he is #3 (which I doubt) he is still extremely strong. So his playful exterior is a facade up to a point. We know how hollows progress and that is by killing other hollows. So that means that Stark DOES get serious quite often. And since he reached the top tier he is obviously very lethal once he gets down to business. Unless he is using killing jokes or something.

2) Pure contrast with everything we've seen so far. I mean both from him and the series as a whole. The closest we've got to evil so far in Bleach is Aizen, but even he is relatively likable as a character. I mean likable in the sense that he is so broken in every possible way that you have to admire him. We've yet to see a character that is really stereotypically evil. Gin simply hasn't done anything bad other than follow Aizen. And the Espada range from stupid, to inferiority complex so far. Plus Stark really seems like the nicest guy out of all the bad guys. Thus I think it would make a nice "twist" if he actually was a ruthless, sadistic, really heartless bastard and not at all likable.

3) Really minor point but check his eyes in the panel where he says "What do you want me to do about it" in the page where his fraccion wakes him up. They are really sharp and snake like. I don't know but to me these eyes show from competence and seriousness (which is a given up to a point) to pure evil intentions.

Maybe but doubt it. The bad guys definately need a Legato Bluesummers though. A crazy evil guy that gets crazier and eviler as the series goes on. About his eyes... he could just be a snake Hollow?

lordHokage
June 29, 2008, 05:31 PM
I personaly see no reason what-so-ever in placing any credence in character reactions or lack there of to Yamamoto's power.

If we look at the Shinigami's... it looks more like to me that they were more surprised that Yamamato acted so quickly and not in awe of the power. If you look back at the SS arc, Yamamoto basically stood around, waiting for everything to play out before he made his move. In this case it was the complete opposite... he initiated the action while the others were just contemplating possible moves. Also lets not forget that the other shinigami were standing right next to him when he released. they had little warning and could of been incinerated. I don't know about you... but I would certainly have the look of shock on my face if I was was standing next him.

As for the Espada... who cares what kind of expression they have. Should we expect them to fall to their knees in awe of the awesomeness of someones Shikai release. They are or should be experienced fighters... so getting all emotional over something like Yamamotos Shikai really shouldn't affect them. If you look at two boxers at their weigh-in, even if one guys a chump and has no chance of defeating the other guy, does he cower before him? No... He puts on a stone cold face and tries to act as tough as the other guy. I'm not saying that this is the case... but facial expressions can be dismissive at best.


Well said. All this talk about facial expression is wishful thinking if you ask me and if you notice, Yama-sama hasn't revealed any facial expression when he released his awesome powers. :D

hajialibaig
June 29, 2008, 07:10 PM
We'll find out about the Espada rankings eventually, and I hate to speculate. But yea, Stark coughing like an idiot at the end of 317 was priceless lol

lazybear
June 29, 2008, 07:52 PM
I always had this constant fanboysih idea about Stark. First of all that he is no. 1. And second that he isn't really the nice guy he appears to be.

Somehow I have this image of Stark in my mind that goes like this. He appears to be a lazy, carefree guy that really doesn't want to get too involved with all of this but in my mind that just how Stark is until he gets into a fight. Once he goes all battle-mode I somehow imagine him to get really ruthless and becoming a cold blooded killing machine. And I don't mean the cool type of strong like Aizen, Yamamoto or Ulquiora but instead completely out of Bleach tradition and actually becoming dead serious and so disturbingly sadistic evil and focused on killing that makes the other top Arrancar go all "Stark is on the move, get the fudge out of his way". Somehow similar to Alucard but not all funny and instead very bleak and really purely evil.

I don't know for some reason I always had this idea about him. It's probably the fanboy in me. But that aside, there are some notions that could support this idea.

1) He IS one of the top 3. Even if he is #3 (which I doubt) he is still extremely strong. So his playful exterior is a facade up to a point. We know how hollows progress and that is by killing other hollows. So that means that Stark DOES get serious quite often. And since he reached the top tier he is obviously very lethal once he gets down to business. Unless he is using killing jokes or something.

2) Pure contrast with everything we've seen so far. I mean both from him and the series as a whole. The closest we've got to evil so far in Bleach is Aizen, but even he is relatively likable as a character. I mean likable in the sense that he is so broken in every possible way that you have to admire him. We've yet to see a character that is really stereotypically evil. Gin simply hasn't done anything bad other than follow Aizen. And the Espada range from stupid, to inferiority complex so far. Plus Stark really seems like the nicest guy out of all the bad guys. Thus I think it would make a nice "twist" if he actually was a ruthless, sadistic, really heartless bastard and not at all likable.

3) Really minor point but check his eyes in the panel where he says "What do you want me to do about it" in the page where his fraccion wakes him up. They are really sharp and snake like. I don't know but to me these eyes show from competence and seriousness (which is a given up to a point) to pure evil intentions.

i like the theory, but still gotta wait to see i guess. also, which chapter was it where Stark says that to his fraccion? went thru 20 some chapters and still havent seen it.

Doombot
June 29, 2008, 08:01 PM
If we go by reactions only Stark was shocked by Yama's move. So far only Halibel and Barragan were rather careless about it. But Stark was coughing later on so he could just be a goof. No one can really point directly to who #1 is because there are many possibilities. Barragan is my pick because, to me, he just simply is an ideal #1. If animes/mangas has taught me anything the older you are the stronger you are.

eddy26
June 29, 2008, 08:13 PM
Well since we have two teams against Aizen his overconfidence is going to backfire on him. You have team ex Gotei 13 and the Gotei 13. Right now the shinigami that are going to fight will probably wipe out the Espada but take alot of damage. They are really outnumbered Baragan and Halibel have a large fraccion. Aizen will probably escape with Gin and Tousen to the real Karakura Town and that's where he'll run into ex Gotei 13. Urahara, Tessai, Yoruichi and the Vizards. If the Vizards join up with someone it'll probably be Urahara. Aizen was about to finish the Vizards off if it weren't for Urahara the Vizard would not exist. After that whole betrayal you don't see coming speech from Aizen you would think Shinji would have a big grudge against Aizen. They almost killed Hiyori right in front of his eyes.
As for Isshin and Ryukken I don't think we will ever see them fight again. I think they just were used to show where Ichigo and Uryuu got their powers from. Kubo needed to give Uryuu his powers back and so people wouldn't get upset about any corny way of giving him back his power he made Ryukken come out as a Quincy.
As far as Ulquiorra is concerned he is probably going to attack Orihime but I don't think will kill her. Ichigo is going to get there and kick Ulquiorra's butt until he releases. He'll probably be going to go in for the killing blow when Unohana comes out. That's when we will see Unohana fight in order to try to save Ichigo and Orihime. She'll be the one to kill Ulquiorra. What does anyone else think?

GOOMOONRYONG
June 29, 2008, 08:20 PM
Well since we have two teams against Aizen his overconfidence is going to backfire on him. You have team ex Gotei 13 and the Gotei 13. Right now the shinigami that are going to fight will probably wipe out the Espada but take alot of damage. They are really outnumbered Baragan and Halibel have a large fraccion. Aizen will probably escape with Gin and Tousen to the real Karakura Town and that's where he'll run into ex Gotei 13. Urahara, Tessai, Yoruichi and the Vizards. If the Vizards join up with someone it'll probably be Urahara. Aizen was about to finish the Vizards off if it weren't for Urahara the Vizard would not exist. After that whole betrayal you don't see coming speech from Aizen you would think Shinji would have a big grudge against Aizen. They almost killed Hiyori right in front of his eyes.
As for Isshin and Ryukken I don't think we will ever see them fight again. I think they just were used to show where Ichigo and Uryuu got their powers from. Kubo needed to give Uryuu his powers back and so people wouldn't get upset about any corny way of giving him back his power he made Ryukken come out as a Quincy.
As far as Ulquiorra is concerned he is probably going to attack Orihime but I don't think will kill her. Ichigo is going to get there and kick Ulquiorra's butt until he releases. He'll probably be going to go in for the killing blow when Unohana comes out. That's when we will see Unohana fight in order to try to save Ichigo and Orihime. She'll be the one to kill Ulquiorra. What does anyone else think?

I liked everything up to the Unohana killing Ulq that just isnt going to happen Ulquiorra and Ichigo have been in a struggle ever since they first met and I think the only person who will end up defeating Ulquiorra is Ichigo, with a little help from someone though maybe Nel haha

Doombot
June 29, 2008, 08:23 PM
I have a problem with it. Isshin will fight again and Aizen is going to win the series. C'mon! No one can stop him.

wrstljr
June 29, 2008, 08:53 PM
My concern now is what type of lame power-up is Ichigo going to get in order to

A. Beat Ulqi
B. Defeat Aizen

There really doesnt seem to be any room for him to get more powerful (other than Kido..which will not happen), which leads me to believe he will get yet another one shot boost in power ala Hollow Mask (aka Super Saiyin) which would be really lame and not to mention completely new to the story.

Honestly I'd just rather see Aizen win at this point...he's played all his cards right and he is insanely overpowered...him losing would be both inconcievable and shocking.

Another thing I fear is that the series will skip right over the next fight between Shinigamis and Espada, and instead show all the Shinigami's bodies lying about after they have been defeated without any explanation. I know that seems unlikely, but it seems even more unlikely to me that Kubo is going to show everybodies releases...namely cause he'd have to think an original thought on the series.

He should go back to doing Zombie Powder because it is far superior at this point.

I'm excited for the next chapter though...maybe with the week off we can even get a background drawn in some of the frames...not that I'd ever want Kubo to stop drawing his multiple black lines in the background for powerful effect or random flecks of dust and debris flying around a completely white background signature...wouldnt want to ruin his bread and butter.

I guess I just have to face facts...hes the greatest character model creator of modern manga...but he doesnt like to draw much else

Venting complete...

Darth Executor
June 29, 2008, 09:52 PM
As for Aizen and his cockyness. He hasn't been wrong since nor has a plan of his not gone as expected. If he says that it'll be over in a few, it probably will be thus Yamato is going to get his tail whipped. And you have to remember, the captains in HM who fought espada somehow convieniently fought people who they had an advantage over. Byaka has his petals which was able to destroy the Zomari's eyes. Mayuri implanted cameras and was able to remove his body internals otherwise he'd be defeated by Szayel. Even Kenpachi was probably one of the few shinigami with the brute strength to cut Noitra's skin. If those captains would have exchanged places, i'm sure the outcome would have been very different.

Actually I think Byakuya won by pure luck (that is, he was lucky enough to run into an opponent too stupid and arrogant to just do the best he can from the start). If Zomari hadn't wasted time and had gone straight for his head byakuya would've never got the chance to analyze his ability and use kidou to block it.

kkck
June 29, 2008, 10:07 PM
I really want to see who the vizards are finaly siding with.
I remember Grimmjow calling tousen "unification officer" and some mention about the fight between grimmjow and ichigo felt like 2 espada going at it. Maybe the vizards will side with aizen even if they hate him because aizen could create a world in which vizards would have a place. Of course this would mean aizen lied some more but it would be an interesting twist to the story.

toussaintac
June 29, 2008, 10:11 PM
Actually I think Byakuya won by pure luck (that is, he was lucky enough to run into an opponent too stupid and arrogant to just do the best he can from the start). If Zomari hadn't wasted time and had gone straight for his head byakuya would've never got the chance to analyze his ability and use kidou to block it.

That's with an bad guy vs. good guy. If the bad guy would stop talking some much and just go ahead and do the deed, they wouldn't end up dead all the time...Although you could say the same thing about the good guy (Byakuya could've just went Bankai and ended the fight immediately) :)
[hr]

I really want to see who the vizards are finaly siding with.
I remember Grimmjow calling tousen "unification officer" and some mention about the fight between grimmjow and ichigo felt like 2 espada going at it. Maybe the vizards will side with aizen even if they hate him because aizen could create a world in which vizards would have a place. Of course this would mean aizen lied some more but it would be an interesting twist to the story.

I wouldn't side with anybody who had planned to kill me and my friends.

ryanzokuken
June 29, 2008, 10:15 PM
Actually I think Byakuya won by pure luck (that is, he was lucky enough to run into an opponent too stupid and arrogant to just do the best he can from the start). If Zomari hadn't wasted time and had gone straight for his head byakuya would've never got the chance to analyze his ability and use kidou to block it.

well, going by that logic, pretty much any victory by any character can be denounced as just getting lucky.

that's kind of like saying " Ishiin is lucky that Grand Fisher wasn't stronger and smarter, or else he wouldn't have won. "


anyways, about Stark's reaction that everyone is making a big deal about...

didn't anyone think maybe he was just surprised that Yama, the leader, just outright activated his shakai right off the bat without any warning? rather than he was just suprised at the power?

his surprise was probably more like "oh wow! he's not wasting any time, is he?" rather than "oh wow! he's really strong! stronger than me..."

kkck
June 29, 2008, 10:26 PM
Actually I think Byakuya won by pure luck (that is, he was lucky enough to run into an opponent too stupid and arrogant to just do the best he can from the start). If Zomari hadn't wasted time and had gone straight for his head byakuya would've never got the chance to analyze his ability and use kidou to block it.

You can also say that if byakuga had used ban kai from the beggining zomari wouldnt have lay a finger on byakuga.
Byakuga and zomari showed of their abilities and strategies and in the end byakuga won therefore byakuga is the stronger one.
[hr]



I wouldn't side with anybody who had planned to kill me and my friends.

That is the obvious choice but as I said there is more to the choice. As we saw in the gaiden soul society wants nothing to do with the vizards, so in a way they tried to kill shinji and company just as much as aizen.

Now imagine the situation in which you have to side with someone:

1.- If you side with shinigami, there is the oportunity that they will take you back but considering how they ussualy act it is very unlikely and even if they do take you back you will be very diferent from everyone else.

2.- If you side with the arrancar, you side with those who are basicaly the same specie as you are. Of course you would hate aizen but on the other hand you would get a home which you currently dont have.

Darth Executor
June 29, 2008, 10:27 PM
well, going by that logic, pretty much any victory by any character can be denounced as just getting lucky.

that's kind of like saying " Ishiin is lucky that Grand Fisher wasn't stronger and smarter, or else he wouldn't have won. "


The specific issue was that the captains were matched well based on abilities. They weren't. Byakuya won because his opponent was stupid, not because his abilities matched well.

toussaintac
June 29, 2008, 10:32 PM
You can also say that if byakuga had used ban kai from the beggining zomari wouldnt have lay a finger on byakuga.
Byakuga and zomari showed of their abilities and strategies and in the end byakuga won therefore byakuga is the stronger one.
<hr noshade size="1">


That is the obvious choice but as I said there is more to the choice. As we saw in the gaiden soul society wants nothing to do with the vizards, so in a way they tried to kill shinji and company just as much as aizen.

Now imagine the situation in which you have to side with someone:

1.- If you side with shinigami, there is the oportunity that they will take you back but considering how they ussualy act it is very unlikely and even if they do take you back you will be very diferent from everyone else.

2.- If you side with the arrancar, you side with those who are basicaly the same specie as you are. Of course you would hate aizen but on the other hand you would get a home which you currently dont have.

I understand that. But you have to understand, Yama asked for Urahara's help eventhough he was banished. Urahara most likely asked the Vizards to help him. They owe him their life, so they should honor his request and back up Soul Society. And i doubt the Viazrds will want to return to Soul Society. They have their own happy family, now. If I was them, I would stay on Earth and elp when needed.

Darth Executor
June 29, 2008, 10:33 PM
You can also say that if byakuga had used ban kai from the beggining zomari wouldnt have lay a finger on byakuga.

Not true. Byakuya used his bankai on zomari and zomari not only survived but countered it with an attempt to take byakuya's head (but too late, byakuya figured out what he was doing by that point). Even if byakuya could get his bankai out before zomari has a chance to take control his head the first time, it still wouldn't be enough. Zomari could just counter and take him out.


Byakuga and zomari showed of their abilities and strategies and in the end byakuga won therefore byakuga is the stronger one.
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Being the strongest wasn't the issues. Whose abilities were a better match for the other was. Intelligence has a role to play and it did in this case, but zomari's abilities > byakuya's abilities

kkck
June 29, 2008, 10:42 PM
I understand that. But you have to understand, Yama asked for Urahara's help eventhough he was banished. Urahara most likely asked the Vizards to help him. They owe him their life, so they should honor his request and back up Soul Society. And i doubt the Viazrds will want to return to Soul Society. They have their own happy family, now. If I was them, I would stay on Earth and elp when needed.

How do you know that the favor yama asked of uruhara had anything to do with the vizards? How do you know uruhara has requested anything of the vizards (as far as I remember this has never been stated)?

I also think (and want) the vizards will fight againts aizen, I simply wanted to point out that it is not something of which we can be 100% sure until it happens and that the vizards could have reasons to side with aizen even if they owe a lot to uruhara.
I also remember hiyori saying she hated shinigami and humans, while never saying anything like that about hollows or arrancar. Most likely this is meaningless but worth noting.

toussaintac
June 29, 2008, 10:56 PM
How do you know that the favor yama asked of uruhara had anything to do with the vizards? How do you know uruhara has requested anything of the vizards (as far as I remember this has never been stated)?

I also think (and want) the vizards will fight againts aizen, I simply wanted to point out that it is not something of which we can be 100% sure until it happens and that the vizards could have reasons to side with aizen even if they owe a lot to uruhara.
I also remember hiyori saying she hated shinigami and humans, while never saying anything like that about hollows or arrancar. Most likely this is meaningless but worth noting.

You're twisting my words. I never said Yama asked a favor of Urahara that had to do with the Vizards, although I wouldn't be surprised if he did. I said he asked Urahara for help (which I am 100% sure of because Kenpachi mentioned it). Upon being asked to help and most likely informed on what Yama planned to do, Urahara probably requested that the Vizards back up Soul Society. Also, it wouldn't make sense for the Vizards to train Ichigo and then be his opposition. People are starting to overthink things. Keep it simple. Also, Hiyori was a shinigami at one time, so why would she need to mention that she hates hollows or arrancar? Her job is to kill them.

andimmintyfresh
June 30, 2008, 12:52 AM
How do you know that the favor yama asked of uruhara had anything to do with the vizards? How do you know uruhara has requested anything of the vizards (as far as I remember this has never been stated)?

I also think (and want) the vizards will fight againts aizen, I simply wanted to point out that it is not something of which we can be 100% sure until it happens and that the vizards could have reasons to side with aizen even if they owe a lot to uruhara.
I also remember hiyori saying she hated shinigami and humans, while never saying anything like that about hollows or arrancar. Most likely this is meaningless but worth noting.

what your saying completely contradicts the fact that shinji has been aware of aizens plans, and makes comments about "wasting time' as Ichigo is not progressing fast enough with his mask.
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I really want to see who the vizards are finaly siding with.
I remember Grimmjow calling tousen "unification officer" and some mention about the fight between grimmjow and ichigo felt like 2 espada going at it. Maybe the vizards will side with aizen even if they hate him because aizen could create a world in which vizards would have a place. Of course this would mean aizen lied some more but it would be an interesting twist to the story.

why would anyone side with the person who BETRAYED them?

ANBU4U
June 30, 2008, 08:58 AM
Not true. Byakuya used his bankai on zomari and zomari not only survived but countered it with an attempt to take byakuya's head (but too late, byakuya figured out what he was doing by that point). Even if byakuya could get his bankai out before zomari has a chance to take control his head the first time, it still wouldn't be enough. Zomari could just counter and take him out.



Being the strongest wasn't the issues. Whose abilities were a better match for the other was. Intelligence has a role to play and it did in this case, but zomari's abilities > byakuya's abilities

Byakuya literally knew a kiddo that completely nullified Zomari's special ability.

And he used it effortlessly. Without a chant. How can you possibly suggest Zomari's abilities are greater than Byakuya's?

Travis
June 30, 2008, 08:59 AM
At KKCK. The Vaizards are pretty much against Aizen. Shinji mentions knowing all about the hougykou which means he's probably been in contact with Urahara since Urahara would probably have to provide info on when it would awaken etc.

You also have Aizen sending Ulquiorra to kill Ichigo, while Shinji and co. trained Ichigo to use his Vaizard powers. It just doesn't make sense to suspect the Vaizards are on Aizen's side. I also think the Vaizards long to return to SS or be cured of the hollowification so they can return. Saving SS will probably help with that.

goldb
June 30, 2008, 10:40 AM
I don't think there on anybody's side but their own...Aizen for ruining their lives and the SS for rejecting them... But they wouldn't fight SS unless provoked...

ShaunMati1
June 30, 2008, 11:17 AM
Let me use an example of why i doubt 100% that the vizards wont side with aizen. Lets say ur family is really really good friends with ur neighbors. And ur neighbors killed ur sibling and framed u. Then ur parents kick u out of the house before u get caught. When u get out of jail...lets say just as in example 10 years and u see ur family with ur neighbors and ur getting revenge. Are u going to get revenge on the ppl who kicked u out or the ppl who betrayed u and ur family? Sounds easy to me.

Although Aizen forced amazing hollow powers on the vizards, its not like he did it cuz he wanted to make shinji and co stronger. No he used the vizards as test subjects..and aizen betrayed shinji, tousen betrays kensei....and ppl still think that they will side with aizen...please.

hitokugutsu
June 30, 2008, 11:43 AM
Let me use an example of why i doubt 100% that the vizards wont side with aizen. Lets say ur family is really really good friends with ur neighbors. And ur neighbors killed ur sibling and framed u. Then ur parents kick u out of the house before u get caught. When u get out of jail...lets say just as in example 10 years and u see ur family with ur neighbors and ur getting revenge. Are u going to get revenge on the ppl who kicked u out or the ppl who betrayed u and ur family? Sounds easy to me.

Although Aizen forced amazing hollow powers on the vizards, its not like he did it cuz he wanted to make shinji and co stronger. No he used the vizards as test subjects..and aizen betrayed shinji, tousen betrays kensei....and ppl still think that they will side with aizen...please.

Yeah.....weird way to compare things but you made your point
The thing is, currently Aizen is lacking power (a mere 3 espada against half the captains), not to mention Urahaha, Yorouchi and Isshin who are on SS side. From what we've seen sofar there is hardly a reason for the Vizard to join Aizen, only from plot perspective to even out the odds during the fights
But I'm guessing Kubo will introduce something new to balance out the power scales.

sk.nite
June 30, 2008, 12:35 PM
There's no Bleach next week. Kubo needs a break, and it shows. Took him 20 pages to make the old man release and Orihime have a "nakama moment".