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Yans86
July 28, 2008, 06:57 AM
My personal ranking for power will be:

Aizen absolute Hypnosis...almost invincible,but a think an element sword can easily beat him if trained well...

Yamamoto's with his fire....(sound a lot Logia type)

Hitsugaya for the same reason before...

Byakuya..absolutely bastard shikai...u can't see his sword...

Soi Fon shikai....two hits and u die(and is only shikai)

Yumichika....suck your spirital power(and is only shikai)....really interested to the extent of this ability and the possible bankai...

Raimaru
July 28, 2008, 07:58 AM
Before I would even start to think about ranking, I would categorise them properly. Not only that you mix Kidou-based shikais with melee combat shikais, you also miss to separate the pure ability from the user's reiatsu level.
Additionally, what exactly do you mean with "power"?
Destructive force?
A scale for deathliness?
Or maybe the range of destruction?
Or else, usefulness?

Yans86
July 28, 2008, 08:16 AM
An absolute ranking besides the reiatsu of the user.....but in the end u can do it like u want,In the end the fights in Bleach doesn't happen following the types of shikais....
U can rank them for power,or usefulness or everything u want!

Eddy01741
July 28, 2008, 06:35 PM
Well, Byakuya's shikai just absolutely rapes lesser leveld shinigami bad. I mean, no contest, if you can't use shunpo to avoid it or do something like ichigo's getsuga, you have no chance against it. That said, it just looks cool because it rapes lesser characters, but I'd predict it's useless against characters of vice captain and captain levels.

Anyways, some notables:
Yamamoto: Um, it can encircle the enemy in flames? I mean, it even trapped aizen, gin, and tousen when they were in the air. That thing has to have a hell of a bankai.

Soifon: Two hit shikai, i think its similar to byakuya, it'd rape lower level characters bad, but not so much against higher levels.

Gin: Very useful shikai no doubt, you can use it as a huge sword and just sweep across lesser enemies, and you can use it as a constant threat even against higher levels like hitsugaya.

Aizen: The lamest shikai, ever, it's like genjutsu in naruto, sure it's good in theory, but to onlookers to a fight (which is what we are in battles), its so lame, they think they kill aizen, but he just appears behind them and cuts them, LAME, but hella powerful.

Komamura: We don't have much info on it, but it pushed kenpachi back real good, seems like a nice brute force shikai.

Mayrui: Eh, being cut from this thing immobilizes you, nuff said. It's another one of those "rapes lower level opponents but is completely ineffective against higher leveled opponents" shikais.

Kira: If you didn't know about this thing's power, well then, your so screwed, your like "ha, he's so slow with the sword, he's barely blocking my attacks", then realize that your sword is 64 times heavier than normal, and you'd be like "WTF?".

Renji: Although i don't like his shikai or bankai very much for lack of creativity, his shikai is pretty good, makes his sword flexible and can be used at longer ranges, and can also be used like an extended sword (similar to gin, but at a much lesser extent). Plus, it's very serrated, so it can cause bad wounds when it is being pulled back.

Matsumoto: Eh, this thing just pwns, it just hits them with like mist and that's it. Seems similar to byakuya's shikai.

Yumichika: Another prime example of, if you don't know of this zanpauto's power, your so screwed.

Darth Executor
July 28, 2008, 06:54 PM
1 Aizen
2 Yamamoto
3 Urahara
4 Soi Fon
5 Kira
6 Yumichika

Rest aren't really worth mentioning compared to these. The bald guy (i always forget his name) has one of the lamest ones, as does Soi Fon's lieutenant.

Tsukisama
July 28, 2008, 08:23 PM
As with all ranking threads (threads in which you rank things), you need to post your reasons for your list in addition to your list. Lists without reasons will be deleted.

Onomatopoeia
July 29, 2008, 02:14 AM
1.Aizen-Yeah absolute hypnosis arguably the cheapest thing ever but still...
2.Yammamoto- His Shikai impressed Gin and I'd say thats something. He was also able to take on both Ukitate and Kyouraku using it and lock Aizen and Co. in a giant fire barrier.
3.Soifon-Depends really on whether or not she tells her enemy what the secret of her Shikai is. If she doesn't she could probablly get one hit easily and then eventually catch the enemy a second time.
4.Mayuri- That thing is useful if it's as powerful as he says it is a few hits he could paralyze your arm or leg or whatever. He just needs to not tell them about its power. If he strikes the enemy even for small cuts he could win so easily.
5.Kira Izuru- Yeah I know he got pwned by Matsamoto but still a few strikes and the enemy would be out. Still the enemy would have to be on his level for this to work if the enemy was hugely powerful then it wouldn't help him much.
6.Matsumoto- Her Shikai witha bit of training is probably more deadly then Kira's I mean if she releases it before the fight then she can just kill off the enemy in seconds but we haven't seen enough of this ability and whether its detectable.

Meh thats all for now I'll make changes to my list when I'm not so tired

LoS
July 29, 2008, 06:20 AM
Why is everyone making Soi fon's out to be some big deal? Its pretty pussy in my opinion. Sure you poke someone twice and they die, but hell other Shikai's can kill people in one hit if used properly, just cut off the persons head/dolorous stroke.

Exodi
July 29, 2008, 07:27 AM
I'll do the captains and vice-captains separately because it's difficult to measure all of the "power" of their abilities all at once. Well, for me, it is. I mean, it's like....20 something different characters.

Captains
1. Aizen - Can't really do much against absolute hypnosis.

2. Yamamoto - Tons of raw power, and that's JUST his shikai. As someone mentioned, he did trap Aizen, Gin, and Tousen with just his shikai ability.

3. Byakuya - It's pretty damaging, but I agree with the point that it wouldn't work against more powerful opponents.

4. Mayuri - Yes, he can paralyze an opponent. But don't forget that the opponent still feels pain. That makes it even more badass.

5. I really wish we knew more about some of the other captains shikais, like Kyouraku or Ukitake.....anyways, Soi Fong has a nice shikai. Two-hit kills...makes you wonder what her bankai could do. I agree with Onomatopoeia; if her opponent knew her ability the fight wouldn't be so easy.

Vice-captains (I just realized we still don't even know the shikai abilities of at least half of the vice-captains...)

1. Matsumoto - Her ash is like Byakuya's sakura, but from what I've seen, it can even invade her opponents' bodies....I think I saw that somewhere. Even if that's not the case, her shikai is pretty darn useful.

2. Kira - Wonderful ability. Hope his opponent doesn't know about it beforehand.

gfire2
July 29, 2008, 08:05 AM
my top 5 fav:

no1. byakuya: its just looks too damn cool with all those peddles
no2. Matsumoto: similar to byakuya's
no3. gin: little knife that grows realli long
no4. yamamoto: shikai is a fire sword that can trap aizen
no5. aizen: just too cheap and pwnage

Starky-08
July 29, 2008, 09:01 AM
My faves

1.Gin - I just had to choose Gin as first, cause all ya gotta do is say "I dare ya to run, I wont even have ta move to kill ya"

2.Kira - Having this one is really handy! Especially if someone releases on you and you act all scared and pretend you can barely block, then BAM! he can barely hold his sword, and you laugh.

3.Soifon - Handy if you hate someone and they call you weak, Stab + Stab = dead

Griffith
July 29, 2008, 02:04 PM
1- Aizen - Cheapest thing ever
2- Yamamoto - Really strong as has been seen, although it could be this strong because its Yamamoto who's wielding it, still elemental manipulation is really strong just check One Piece.
3- Mayuri - Powerful, useful and mysterious, can paralyze and turn Mayuri into water to escape, and I bet it can do many more things after seeing what a twisted genius Mayuri is.
4- Byakuya - Fast and deadly.
5- Yumichika - We don't know much about it except that it sucks the reiatsu, now if that didnt have a limit I guess it could be used like draining and then releasing or storing, that is either fire it like a cero or using it to heal maybe.

Btw everyone seems to like Kira's shikai but people like Byakuya wouldn't have any problem or any kidou user, really.

Eddy01741
July 29, 2008, 05:44 PM
Wait, does yumichicka's shikai absorb energy, or reiatsu? I may be wrong, but I thought it said energy...

Yans86
July 30, 2008, 04:53 AM
Yumichika - We don't know much about it except that it sucks the reiatsu, now if that didnt have a limit I guess it could be used like draining and then releasing or storing, that is either fire it like a cero or using it to heal maybe..


To heal for sure,before using that power he was wounded by Shuuei but after realising....he won, and he came back to Zaraki all healed up and full of energy!If the extent of his Shikai can go even beyond only that it would be more than amazing!!!

sindergi
June 29, 2009, 07:33 PM
Hi,

the Captains were able to defeat Espadas by "just" using their bankais.
Almost everytime when Ichigo is fighting he fights with his bankai - he starts his fights almost everytime in his bankai-state but it seems that this is not enough to win. If he wants to beat a strong guy he has to activate his Hollow-Mask (even when he just fighting a ex-espada http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/250/20/ http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/253/17/).

Is Ichigo´s Bankai really so weak or it´s just because the Captain have more practice with their Bankais ?

What do you think ?

kkck
June 29, 2009, 07:53 PM
ichigo has never fought a numeros, and even if he did, he wouldn't even need shikai IMHO.

I do think ichigo's bankai has shown to be significantly inferior to that of all captains though. To be completely honest I believe this happened because ichigo has somehow lost his base power as he gains powerups though. Although there could be an element of inexperience to it.

sindergi
June 29, 2009, 07:58 PM
ichigo has never fought a numeros, and even if he did, he wouldn't even need shikai IMHO.

I do think ichigo's bankai has shown to be significantly inferior to that of all captains though. To be completely honest I believe this happened because ichigo has somehow lost his base power as he gains powerups though. Although there could be an element of inexperience to it.

sorry i didnt mean Numeros - i mean this ex-espada...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/250/20/

kkck
June 29, 2009, 08:01 PM
sorry i didnt mean Numeros - i mean this ex-espada...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/250/20/

Well, a privaron espada is on a completely different level in comparison to a mere numero. I do think ichigo should have fared better against unreleased dodorni in shikai mode. Also, ichigo did not need the mask to defeat him, he used it as a favor to dodorni and to guarantee nels safety.

sindergi
June 29, 2009, 08:06 PM
Well, a privaron espada is on a completely different level in comparison to a mere numero. I do think ichigo should have fared better against unreleased dodorni in shikai mode. Also, ichigo did not need the mask to defeat him, he used it as a favor to dodorni and to guarantee nels safety.

kk you convince me :D
But I still thinks his Bankai is to weak compared to some other Bankais we have seen so far......maybe its because he would be just to strong with a "strong" bankai + hollowfication

-Ren Boy-
June 29, 2009, 08:09 PM
but look byukaku stated that ichigo traded strngth for speed, so in a way Ichigo's bankai is good

kkck
June 29, 2009, 08:11 PM
kk you convince me :D
But I still thinks his Bankai is to weak compared to some other Bankais we have seen so far......maybe its because he would be just to strong with a "strong" bankai + hollowfication

I agree. Even byakuya's bankai seemed as impressive as the other captains bankai's when he fought zomari. Ichigo was said to have immense reiatsu so I doubt that is the problem here. I think ichigo somehow lost power in his base form which is why the effect of his shikai and bankai has been reduced.
[hr]

but look byukaku stated that ichigo traded strngth for speed, so in a way Ichigo's bankai is good
When was that said?:blink If anything the compression of power leads to an even more powerful strike on ichigo's part.

sindergi
June 29, 2009, 08:13 PM
but look byukaku stated that ichigo traded strngth for speed, so in a way Ichigo's bankai is good

Yes but after Byukagu used this Senkei-thing of his bankai he was as fast as ichigo.......and his Bankai has more power then just the speed.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/09/

I just think speed isnt enough for a Bankai.......

kkck
June 29, 2009, 08:17 PM
Yes but after Byukagu used this Senkei-thing of his bankai he was as fast as ichigo.......and his Bankai has more power then just the speed.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/09/

I just think speed isnt enough for a Bankai.......

byakuya does not get a single extra MPH when he uses his bankai or it's more advanced forms. Ichigo actually got slower as the fight moved on.

-Ren Boy-
June 29, 2009, 08:21 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/163/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/163/20/
I dont know but ichigo did exchange Strength for speed IMO

sindergi
June 29, 2009, 08:22 PM
byakuya does not get a single extra MPH when he uses his bankai or it's more advanced forms. Ichigo actually got slower as the fight moved on.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/07/
But on this page Ichigo said this :

-After he did that "Senkei-Thing", his speed just kept getting faster and faster....! -

En Yang Ji
June 29, 2009, 08:23 PM
This page explains it: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/05/

sindergi
June 29, 2009, 08:26 PM
This page explains it: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/05/

What do you mean ? That Ichigo is getting slower because of the spiritual pressure of Byakugan´s Bankai or that Ichigo didnt know how to use his Bankai correctly ?

En Yang Ji
June 29, 2009, 08:29 PM
Ichigo is getting slower because of Byakuya's spiritual pressure.

bax
June 29, 2009, 08:32 PM
Well there is also one more thing to consider, which many usually missed. It's somewhat related to experience. Ichigo only has been a shinigami for a short while. A year or two at most.

The others are already shinigamis for hundreds of years. Experience, practice, power and everything, most of them are better than Ichigo. Ichigo sheer power sure toppled the lower shinigamis, while not really when it comes to the captains. He practically uses his sheer power to cover his lack of experience and practice. Most of the others (if not all) already explored and mastered their bankai long before even Ichigo turned into a shinigami.

Well, what I wanted to say is, his current bankai, IMO, is definitely undeveloped as much as the other captains.

sindergi
June 29, 2009, 08:38 PM
Well there is also one more thing to consider, which many usually missed. It's somewhat related to experience. Ichigo only has been a shinigami for a short while. A year or two at most.

The others are already shinigamis for hundreds of years. Experience, practice, power and everything, most of them are better than Ichigo. Ichigo sheer power sure toppled the lower shinigamis, while not really when it comes to the captains. He practically uses his sheer power to cover his lack of experience and practice. Most of the others (if not all) already explored and mastered their bankai long before even Ichigo turned into a shinigami.

Well, what I wanted to say is, his current bankai, IMO, is definitely undeveloped as much as the other captains.


Agree - i dont say that he needs another bankai but he has to work on his Bankai to make it better and not just focus on his Hollowfication....

And 20000 Post ???? wtf - how many post do you write on one day - 20 ??? :D

exacta
June 29, 2009, 08:52 PM
I agree with his Bankai not being fully developed yet. That makes perfect sense, the Captains have had Bankai for a much longer time than Ichigo. I don't think Ichigo's Bankai is the weakest. Renji's bankai is kinda cool, but Renji sucks ass. Renji hasn't won a single fight in the manga aside from Ishida( which was off screen) and Yylfordt, and he even said his Bankai might not've been enough if the limiter release didn't catch Yylfordt off guard.....even Chad's got a better record. And Kubo craps on Chad. Renji's Bankai is definitely the weakest....

Jassaray
June 29, 2009, 08:59 PM
As many have said, Ichigo is a new Shinigami with impressive power but little experience or maturity. He also has the added pressure of being able to use Hollowfication as part of his repertoire, making his Bankai in it's current state more of a catalyst needed to proceed to Hollowfication rather than the upper limit of his power.

With the exception of the Visored's, we can say with the evidence that we have right now, that Bankai is a Shinigami's top level of power not including Kidou and other supplementary skills. This is not true with Ichigo or the Visored's. They have a new level of power to access and so naturally, they don't rely on their Bankai's as much as Captains do right now. This means that Captain class Shinigami devote themselves to making their Bankai's worthy of a trump card. Whereas Ichigo treats his as a means to an end. It gives him the power boost needed to reach the next level.

Also, we have followed Ichigo's power progression from day one. So we've seen him grow through mistakes and victories. I highly doubt that the top captains were always so proficient with their abilities. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Fox666
June 29, 2009, 09:05 PM
No. It is a very strong sword, still very light. But people just think "wtf it is just a small sword, so it is useless..."

kkck
June 29, 2009, 09:21 PM
Byakuya not getting faster when he uses bankai is an unquestionable fact stated by byakuya himself.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/15/


http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/163/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/163/20/
I dont know but ichigo did exchange Strength for speed IMO
That does not nesesarily mean ichigo gave up power though. Considering how easily ichigo got past yammi's hierro later on I would think his bankai also increases his attack power. If using bankai really decreased ichigo's attack power, he would do better against his oponents hierro in shikai mode and we know that is not the case. The compression of power in his sword means there is more reiatsu in each strike so an increase in power would be logical in bankai mode. Not to mention that without an increase in power, ichigo would not have been able to defeat byakuya's ultimate technique which was ONLY a mass of power.


Also, shirosaki said ichigo was afraid of byakuya's spirit pressure but that does not mean ichigo actually lost speed because of it. Ichigo before bankai could somewhat keep up with byakuya's speed, there is no way that after bankai byakuya's reiatsu would hamper or hurt ichigo in any way. If ichigo was fodder like renji that would be the case though.

Gecko Moria
June 29, 2009, 11:29 PM
Ichigo is getting slower because of Byakuya's spiritual pressure.

Spiritual pressure IMO is one of those attributes that only come with experience. That's why Yamamoto's spiritual pressure is so solid and he can make others faint with a gaze or blow people away with a swish of his sword. It also explains why Ichigo, and even a captain like Hitsugaya have had their bankai described as being unstable and why they can't hold it for very long. Comparatively, Byakuya had way more experience they Ichigo, which is why his spiritual pressure to strong and he can has utmost control of his bankai.

Question: Apart from Getsuga Tensho (which Ichigo actually considers to be the hollow's attack) and enhanced speed, does Ichigo's bankai actually have anything else?

lexx
June 29, 2009, 11:34 PM
Ichigo's shikai, the butcher-knife style Zangetsu, is stylistically just a bare blade without guard or handle. It's massive, bulky, and thus carries a lot of force in each blow.

Ichigo's bankai, Tensa Zangetsu, was stated by Kuchiki Byakuya as to being this (paraphrasing): compressing your soul slayer's power into a normal sword shape, thus allowing hyper-speed combat.

Grimmjaw says during his first fight with Ichigo "is your speed the only thing your bankai increases?" this would seem to confirm that the bankai increases Ichigo's speed but not attacking power.

Zangetsu (shikai) was an extremely powerful sword, especially for a shikai. Consider the other shikai we've seen:

Houzokimaru (Ikkaku): versatile but not really that damaging, I mean c'mon it's a three section staff with a spear point.

Tobiume (Hinamori): look like those old Japanese police tools that catch and break sword tips. She has never even used it as a sword, she throws fireballs from it

Senbonsakura (Kuchiki Byakuya): pretty and deadly, but Ichigo freaking smoked it with a single shot from Zangetsu.

Zabimaru (Renji): versatile and somewhat unpredictable, but one shot from Zangetsu smashed it.

Wabisuke (Izuru Kira): crappy sword with good magic ability.

Haineko (Matsumoto Rangiku): seems to be similiar to Senbonsakura but has yet to show overwhelming killing potential

Right now the two, maybe three Shikai that outclass Zangetsu are Yamamoto's (well, duh), Hitsugaya's (versatility, and some ridiculous magic abilities), and Kyoraku's (twin swords equally powerful and far more difficult to predict)

I don't like bankai zangetsu. It's speed boost became basically non-existent. Even in its first appearance during the Kuchiki Byakuya fight, the overwhelming advantage Ichigo had quickly disappeared as he slowed due to damage and blood loss taking their effect. Ever since then, no opponent he's fought was slower than Ichigo in bankai mode:

-Nappa or rather, Yammi
-Grimmjow 1
-Grimmjow2
-Doldoni
-Ulquiorra
-Grimmjow 3
-Ulquiorra 2

Ok it sorta looked like he caught Yammi's arm in a fast attack but it could've just been that Yammi wasn't paying attention. Either way, that's been the ONLY time Ichigo's bankai has been noticeably faster than any of his opponents since the Byakuya fight.

Oh wait in the 2nd Ulquiorra fight Ichigo's (second?) hollow form used sonido and totally got behind Ulquiorra without him noticing. But that isn't exactly his bankai's power now is it.

Gecko Moria
June 29, 2009, 11:49 PM
I don't like bankai zangetsu. It's speed boost became basically non-existent. Even in its first appearance during the Kuchiki Byakuya fight, the overwhelming advantage Ichigo had quickly disappeared as he slowed due to damage and blood loss taking their effect. Ever since then, no opponent he's fought was slower than Ichigo in bankai mode:

By compressing his power, all Ichigo achieved was enhanced speed? I have to admit I found Ichigo's bankai disappointing the first time he revealed it. Most shinigami's swords increase in size and become more epic when they release. As speed alone can't win a battle, I guess Ichigo does rely on his inner hollow's powers more than Zangetsu.

Eddy01741
June 30, 2009, 03:28 AM
WTF, did you just say Shunsui's shikai>Ichigo's shikai? Shunsui's shikai has shown us nothing but blowing a gust of wind in Starks face, and then trying to do a one shot sneak attack. Unless Shunsui shows us a better ability, I call his shikai weak and unimpressive. You praise the fact that he has dual swords, and that it makes it "harder to predict", dual swords also makes each sword weaker as Kubo defined with Kenpachi and his plotkai named Kendo.

If anything, Ukitake's shikai is the one to praise, not Shunsui's. Uktake's shikai would turn Ichigo's GT against him, except it'd be faster (aka, harder to dodge).

Anyways, Ichigo hasn't trained enough with his bankai, Byakuya states that at least 10 years of training should be done before even fighting with bankai, not to meniton how many years it'd take to master bankai. I mean, when was the last time we even saw Zangetsu? During Ichigo's bankai training. Ichigo hasn't even tried to unlock the true power of his bankai, he instead goes for the quick power up, the vizard mask (well, it was kindof neccesary, Shirosaki was taking over Ichigo as well as Zangetsu). The way I see it, concentrating on his holllow powers is counterintuitive for Ichigo in terms of making his bankai more powerful. Ichigo hasn't learned anything from zangetsu in a while, the only thing he did learn was GT, and not even in Bankai (Shirosaki had to show him that one). Not to mention that by embracing his hollow powers, I doubt Ichigo is fighting alongside Zangetsu like he did against Kenpachi.

Bottom Line: I think Ichigo should just stop trying to find the quick power ups and just train with Zangetsu.

kkck
June 30, 2009, 11:06 AM
Well, kyoraku help his ground against primera with just his unreleased swords while ichigo needed bankai to fight a privaron espada, on par with unreleased grimmjow and slightly below unreleased ulquiorra. Given that, shikai kyoraku >>> bankai ichigo lol.

Eddy01741
June 30, 2009, 11:20 AM
And Stark was waiting until the others were apparently finished before he got serious. Like seriously, what did Stark do against SHunsui pre-resurreccion. He used sonido and basic sword attacks to attack Shunsui, and Shunsui just ran away from each one, then Stark fires a cero, Shunsui runs away/dodges again. Wasn't much of a fight if you ask me.

And tell me what has shikai Kyoraku done? Tried to cheapshot Stark twice, both attempts ended up failing badly.

Kyoraku has shown nothing impressive so far to me except his ability to dodge and use shunpo.

kkck
June 30, 2009, 11:32 AM
And Stark was waiting until the others were apparently finished before he got serious. Like seriously, what did Stark do against SHunsui pre-resurreccion. He used sonido and basic sword attacks to attack Shunsui, and Shunsui just ran away from each one, then Stark fires a cero, Shunsui runs away/dodges again. Wasn't much of a fight if you ask me.

And tell me what has shikai Kyoraku done? Tried to cheapshot Stark twice, both attempts ended up failing badly.

Kyoraku has shown nothing impressive so far to me except his ability to dodge and use shunpo.

Starrk before resurreccion did pretty much the same any other espada did before resurreccion. The one big difference was that kyoraku without releasing his sword actually held his ground against unreleased starrk while all the other captains and main characters who fought an espada could barely keep up with unreleased espadas.

-Soi fon could not land a hit on unreleased barragan.
-hitsugaya could do nothing in base mode to unrelease harribel. Granted hitsugaya held back his strongest power though.
-Ichigo in shikai mode would not last two seconds against a privaron espada, grimmjow or ulquiorra even if they don't release. Hell, bankai merely gave him a chance to fight back.

Kyoraku, as I already said, was on even ground with an unreleased espada. That is by far above what any other character has shown so far. Not to mention we are talking about primera, the guy who apparently simply shunpoed away from eyepatch-less kempachi and bankai ichigo.

Also, kyoraku being on the losing end of the fight when fighting a released primera is not a sign of weakness. The guy didn't even use his bankai and barely got a chance to use his shikai. At the moment I would not be surprised if unreleased kyoraku >>> ichigo bankai lol.

Eddy01741
June 30, 2009, 03:45 PM
I agree that Kyoraku himself seems much more powerful than Ichigo.

But the discussion is of shikais and bankais. And comparing what we saw of Shunsui unreleased, and what we saw of Shikai, I'm really not impressed at the power difference. So Shunsui can blow a gust of wind in shikai, big whoop.

Ichigo Shikai>Kyoraku shikai IMO (just the shikai, not how powerful the respective characters are in their shikai).

kkck
June 30, 2009, 03:54 PM
Ohhh, ok, I get what you mean.... I thought u meant kyoraku was weaker than ichigo lol. For your point it is better to use just the names of the swords though, it avoids unnesesary confusion and misunderstandings.

I think it is a little soon to judge kyoraku´s shikai though. As you said, it only used a single gust of wind, we have yet to see if it is capable of using wind in a different manner.

Now:
-Zangetsu: Very big; can be used at a range with scarf; getsuga tenshou;
-Katen kyokotsu: Two big swords; wind user

I personally would favor katen kyokotsu over zangetsu. It is true we have seen very little of katen kyokotsu but the ability to use wind should not be understimated. IMHO katen kyokotsu should be considerably more versatile than zangetsu considering it should be able to manipulate wind inmore ways than what zangetsu can manipulate GT. Anyways, that´s my take for the time being.

Eddy01741
June 30, 2009, 04:14 PM
Well, Shunsui did use a second ability, only it was interrupted by Stark before we could see what it actually was.

Anyways, am I the only one in thinking that Ichigo could not only improve his bankai, but his shikai as well? I mean, the kid goes into fights in bankai like others go into their fights unreleased, and he treats his vizard mask like a shikai....

What happened to the "power of a constant state shikai zanpakutou" that Urahara and co were talking about where Ichigo first learned Zangetsu's name.

Ozehro
July 01, 2009, 01:18 AM
dude Ichigo's bankai is epic! it's definitely strong enough.
so far the only bankai that increases innate speed is tensa zangetsu.
and speed plays a huge role in battle!

Eddy01741
July 01, 2009, 01:20 AM
The problem is though that Ichigo in his increased speed bankai can't even match up against Grimmjow's unreleased speed, much less Ulquiorra's speed.

Ichigo just needs to train more with zangetsu.

Ozehro
July 01, 2009, 04:38 AM
The problem is though that Ichigo in his increased speed bankai can't even match up against Grimmjow's unreleased speed, much less Ulquiorra's speed.

Ichigo just needs to train more with zangetsu.

yeah grimmjow was so awesome and powerful against bankai ichigo.
I think nnoitra should have been more powerful against kenpachi.
it would have made more sense... but I agree he needs to learn more
about his bankai.
---------
actually I think I know Ichigo's problem. he doesn't know how to use shunpo
that well. his bankai luckily increases his innate speed but if he also knew shunpo
then he could become faster. I don't think his bankai will give any more speed than
it already does.

Eddy01741
July 01, 2009, 04:49 AM
Yeah, if you ask me circling around Byakuya and making pseudo afterimages using shunpo in bankai was just a waste of energy.

Maybe he needs to learn some shunpo tricks from Yoruichi.

Arrogance
July 16, 2009, 03:06 AM
I don't see speed being the only ability his bankai has, if so that would be lame. Getsuga Tensho is getting played as well. Even though he did show some learning ability with his bankai by keeping Getsuga Tensho in the blade to increase the power of his hits as well as using it as a defensive maneuver at times. So he has shown that he has been learning to mix up his current techniques for different effects yet at the same time he needs something more. Maybe a new stage of Getsuga Tensho or a way for him to take his current abilities to another stage. Since Getsuga Tensho is energy blasts, hopefully he has other typed of energy blasts that work in similar concepts but instead will cause different types or damage or do different things. Right now its hard to tell what he could possibly pull out of his sleeve pertaining to his bankai since it is so oddly simple. Energy blasts and increased speed isn't much in the creative category to think of ways for him to take his current abilities to the next level.

Ozehro
July 16, 2009, 03:21 AM
I don't see speed being the only ability his bankai has, if so that would be lame. Getsuga Tensho is getting played as well. Even though he did show some learning ability with his bankai by keeping Getsuga Tensho in the blade to increase the power of his hits as well as using it as a defensive maneuver at times. So he has shown that he has been learning to mix up his current techniques for different effects yet at the same time he needs something more. Maybe a new stage of Getsuga Tensho or a way for him to take his current abilities to another stage. Since Getsuga Tensho is energy blasts, hopefully he has other typed of energy blasts that work in similar concepts but instead will cause different types or damage or do different things. Right now its hard to tell what he could possibly pull out of his sleeve pertaining to his bankai since it is so oddly simple. Energy blasts and increased speed isn't much in the creative category to think of ways for him to take his current abilities to the next level.

dude speed is an awesome ability. it in directly increases your attack and defense.

Arrogance
July 16, 2009, 11:23 AM
i never said it wasn't awesome. I love Ichigo's bankai, the matter is though thats not enough these days, he needs more of a new ability or something or an extension of a previous one. And whats that gonna be...OOO he gets faster, and faster, and faster -____-. The point I was trying to make is that the creativity to take his bankai to a new level just based on the techniques he has now with it is low and hard to see. So I'm hoping that he will have something knew in the energy blast category (trying to think realistically here and working with what we have already) or it would be something completely new.

Mifune_Taichou
July 16, 2009, 11:31 AM
I'm hoping something would have happened in his head while Ichigonator was raping everyone and Shirosaki would have taught his something about Zangetsu or maybe by completely subjugating shirosaki he could free Zangetsu. I'm hoping he's learnt some new technique that he could then pull out of nowhere and do the usual explaining your secret hax technique thing that usually happens lol.

Random101
July 26, 2009, 02:11 AM
Well, going to straight out ranking, provided I'm going for pure power/usefulness.

Shikais:
1. Aizen's: Broken as can be, I can pretty much control the senses of anyone who has seen it.
2. Yamamoto's: Granted we haven't seen much, but what has been seen has proven rather pwnsome itself, if not as outright broken as other abilities. However this may be more because Yamamoto is simply that strong (Hard to tell though). Either way it's proven a pretty nasty one. Mostly here because a prison which can stop three captain levels for that long (And longer if Superchunky didn't arrive) is alright in my book.
3. Hitsugaya's: A surprise twist! Nowhere near the level of Yamamoto's of course, but we got weather control, ice manipulation with both close and long range which effortlessly pwns Vice Captains on near misses, and that chain thing to boot which can freeze what it catches, a nice combo platter in itself.
4. Soifon's: Lower because without speed it's rather difficult to use itself. I mean you have to hit the EXACT same spot, no room for error even with that internal trick of hers. Easily 2-3 if it's HER using it, because it's her speed in conjunction with that ability which makes it so broken, but lower simply because I'm looking at mainly the ability itself.
5. Ichigo's/Kira's: Close tie. Ichigo's largely because the ranged capabilities are a must have, and if you use the cloth right it can be handy, and Kira's because the ability is broken, though it needs to be close range in order to use, and is worthless against projectiles.

As a special mention:

Gin's: Frankly this ability looks nice at first... but then looking at Isshin vs. Grand Fisher, this should be what the sealed blades of a sufficiently powerful shinigami can do already, which seriously downgrades it. Add that it can be mostly dodged when the thing is only a fraction of a millimeter from the eye (Admittedly by a pretty quick captain), and it doesn't seem as nice. I'd certainly hope it can do more to say the least. Then again, Shikai's are pretty much obsolete at this point, so it hardly says much against him.

Bankais however (Naturally only the revealed ones):
1/2. Hitsugaya/Byakuya's: Tough choice to be frank. In all honesty, versatility is key. Both of these are quick, versatile in close range and long, have multiple capabilities attack wise, and also serve defensively too. Hitsugaya's is more of an all rounder, and gets stronger as time goes on apparently with setup, but this supposed time limit kinda dampens things. As such Byakuya's would have placed first... but frankly it's slightly disadvantaged for extreme close range in the first stage (Don't want to cut yourself), and stage 2 kinda sucks. Granted in the right hands you could maybe make all the blades attack instead of taking Byakuya's route of 'by man own hands only'... but until I see that confirmed as a possibility (As in the actual blades, not the patchwork ones used against Renji, which seem a lot weaker given he broke one with his hands in that state, which took Hollow Ichigo to do for the second stage versions), I don't want to say it has something it doesn't. Since I can't make a choice, it's two for one!
3. Ichigo's: I'm suddenly struck by how few versatile bankai we've seen. Extremely good speed and power, but lacks in the defense department. Main problem is the speed seems variable though, as there's no way a horde of mooks could have stopped him from getting to Ulquilorra otherwise. And it kinda craps out if you use it too much. Also good in two ranges thanks to the Getsuuga.
4. Renji: Really sad isn't it, how few there are? Good speed, range, and theoretically defense, problem is close range is limited, and seems hard to move around, so it appears unreliable in mid range. Also it breaks pretty easy too.
5. Ikkaku's: Extremely sad... Brittle, and it's only selling point is power... but if Bleach tries to teach anything, it's that MOAR POWER can solve anything... >>

I'd put Mayuri's, but it just creeps me out. Yuck...