Sasuke(without ms) vs Kakuzu who will win?

[Naruto4life]

Have fun.

[Eddy01741]

Kakuzu.

He has high level ninjutsu's of every element, and has 5 hearts, 4 of which can independently attack hte enemy. He already was beating kakashi, although Sasuke is probably stronger than kakashi (damn kishi+sasuke love).

[PitchBlack857]

Without MS I can't see Sasuke killing Kakuzu 5 times, he might get 3 or 4 hearts but without MS and "plot no jutsu" Kakuzu beats that ass.

[Csdabest]

I see Sasuke killing Kakuzu five times pretty Easily. Chidori Saber. If and most likely he can and will hit him with it. It will stick him and do the spread attack he used on Itachi bushin. Spiking out it six directions.

Get behind him and Rain Chidori Senbon on him. Slam chidori needles into his back and hearts.

Kirin would definitely destroy all 5 hearts with the pure destruction alone.

Sasuke could genjutsu rape. Use chidori flow and send guided weapons at Kakuzu. If Kauzu ever gets to close or a hold of sasuke. Chidori Negashi would be used and kakzu would get paralyzed long enough for sasuke to shove a sword in him.

From what I seen Kakuzu is fast. But I beleive Sasuke is much faster with Shunshin. And most likely faster without it as well.

Kakuzu was alright but he didnt really show much skill that will kill Kakashi. Much less Sasuke. Imo Kakashi one on one from the get go would have decimated Kakuzu.

[kkck]

This is a hard one.
Kakusu is very versatile considering he can fight at close, middle and long range with a wide variety of elements and body threads. He also has those five hearts and the ability to extebd them outside of his body and use them to attack from several angles and cover his back.
Sasuke has sharingan and has his all purpose chidori and variants plus speed and genjutsu. Sasuke at least would be bothered by the hard skin kakusu has, chidoru sword would do the trick here. Now ther are 3 more element that chidori is not weak nor strong to and one to which chidori has a weakness.
IMO this would be a close fight, any of them could actually do it if they play their cards right. Kirin of course would be a one hit KO.
COnsidering this I think kakusu would win, but it will be a close fight,

[ninjabot]

Kirin is DEFINITELY a one-shot kill in this fight, and a character too dumb to overcome a simple KB strategy doesn't have the prerequisites to escape a Genjutsu that's powerful enough to subdue a boss-level summon.

Stupify him with Genjutsu, prepare Kirin, then let Kakuzu "Disappear with the thunder!" Sasuke wins.

EDIT: Oh, and that hard skin is earth element. Chidori makes mince-meat of it the same way Kakashi did with Raikiri.

[Csdabest]

Kirin is DEFINITELY a one-shot kill in this fight, and a character too dumb to overcome a simple KB strategy doesn't have the prerequisites to escape a Genjutsu that's powerful enough to subdue a boss-level summon.

Stupify him with Genjutsu, prepare Kirin, then let Kakuzu "Disappear with the thunder!" Sasuke wins.

EDIT: Oh, and that hard skin is earth element. Chidori makes mince-meat of it the same way Kakashi did with Raikiri.


Though I myself wouldn't simply the fight to that degree lol. But that could happen tremendously. Toss a Katons in the air. Subdue with genjutsu. Then kill with Kirin. very plausible.

[GaaraoftheDesert77]

ok Sasgay fanyaoiboys or watever u wanna do to sasgay. Kakuzu is a S-rank criminal who can use all 4 elements professionally and 5 hearts and can make his body hard. Sasgay has Plot no jutsu,faggotass kishi on his side,lighting moves,speed,and a lil taijutsu. minus being kishis bitch and getting stupid unknown powers Kakuzu would own Sasgay anytime of the week. i meen seriously come on look wat the 8 tails is doing to Sasgay. Kakuzu has the power to control a Biju and Sasgay cant even handle the 8 Tailed....yet before fagot kishi comes into play.

[ninjabot]

@Csdabest: Meh, maybe it would'nt go down that easily, but Sasuke definately has all the tools necessary to win. Even if Kirin didn't come into play, if Kakuzu fired a wind blast at Sasuke he'd just shoot a Gouryuuka at him and it would power up the fire dragon even stronger than it normally is, and he'd fry him to nothing.

It comes down to "who uses what jutsu and when". Sasuke's lightning beats Kakuzu's earth. Kakuzu's wind beats Sasuke's lightning. Sasuke's fire beats Kakuzu's wind. Kakuzu's water beats Sasuke's fire. Since Sasuke doesn't have earth jutsu, he'd have to use taijutsu on the water heart.

Come to think of it, I don't really think it HAS to be the opposite element to kill the heart, because Naruto killed 2 different hearts with one element.

@GaaraoftheDesert77: Thanks for that unbiased, intelligent, colorful display of opinion.

[GaaraoftheDesert77]

Meh, maybe it would'nt go down that easily, but Sasuke definately has all the tools necessary to win. Even if Kirin didn't come into play, if Kakuzu fired a wind blast at Sasuke he'd just shoot a Gouryuuka at him and it would power up the fire dragon even stronger than it normally is, and he'd fry him to nothing.

It comes down to "who uses what jutsu and when". Sasuke's lightning beats Kakuzu's earth. Kakuzu's wind beats Sasuke's lightning. Sasuke's fire beats Kakuzu's wind. Kakuzu's water beats Sasuke's fire. Since Sasuke doesn't have earth jutsu, he'd have to use taijutsu on the water heart.

Come to think of it, I don't really think it HAS to be the opposite element to kill the heart, because Naruto killed 2 different hearts with one element.

ya Naruto trained extremely hard for that "trump card" and it costed his a broken arm.

[Csdabest]

ok Sasgay fanyaoiboys or watever u wanna do to sasgay. Kakuzu is a S-rank criminal who can use all 4 elements professionally and 5 hearts and can make his body hard. Sasgay has Plot no jutsu,faggotass kishi on his side,lighting moves,speed,and a lil taijutsu. minus being kishis bitch and getting stupid unknown powers Kakuzu would own Sasgay anytime of the week. i meen seriously come on look wat the 8 tails is doing to Sasgay. Kakuzu has the power to control a Biju and Sasgay cant even handle the 8 Tailed....yet before fagot kishi comes into play.

1. What Manga are you reading.
2. Just because someone has five elements doesnt mean their god.
3. Kakuzu Has no such ability to control a Bijuu.
4. The fight isn't even over yet.
5. Try not to insult people. Specialy for a character that got tricked by a genin KB trick.
6. Kakazuz seems to be weak mined living for money. And would most likely fall to Sasuke Genjutsu.
7. Were using the CS version of Sasuke.
8. Kakuzu hard body is earth element Jutsu. So lightning would rape him.
9. A little bit of Taijutsu. he copied his style froma Taijutsu specialist. Lee admited Sasuke sharingan would put him bove him since he can use lee taijutsu at high speed.

There is seriously nothing Kakuzu can do without it getting countered.
[hr]

ya Naruto trained extremely hard for that "trump card" and it costed his a broken arm.

So Naruto trainning for a trump card justifies your disrepsect and utter hate for a character how?

[ninjabot]

It wasn't broken, it was lacerated inside out. And that's the point I was making: it was enough to kill two hearts (possibly more) despite it's elemental affinity. That's definite proof that Sasuke doesn't need a high level earth element jutsu to destroy the water heart. He just needs a strong jutsu.

Therfore, Kakuzu loses.

[Forever_Melody]

Kakuzu isn't stupid because he fell for Naruto's plan.... The fact is, Kakuzu reacted in the perfect way he should given the circumstances Naruto showed him. I mean, anybody who knew Naruto would think it'd be normal for him to try 2 times the same thing and Kakuzu was assuming the same, but that's where Naruto's 'plan' came in.

Anyways, for a man who survived idk how many years and also survived a fight with Shodai, I'd say he's at least above average in intelligence.

Now, the actual fight.

Kakuzu can be 5 entities as many as one. And it seems each entity/heart is independent of Kakuzu's "main" body, since it allowed him to get out of Kagemane(independently of whether or not the main mind/body was stuck). So, by that reasoning, I'm guessing they also act independently against genjutsu. Mind you, I'm sure each component isn't an Einstein but at least that means that means genjutsu isn't a simple win either since each heart could detach & attack or try and free the others from genjutsu(assuming the masks can even BE put into genjutsu). Therefore, I'd say it'll take more than genjutsu for a win.

Now, Sasuke has mastered high level ninjutsu as well as Kakuzu. This area is tricky. Mind you, Kakuzu has elemental advantage on his side but as ninjabot said, you don't need elemental advantages if the jutsu is strong enough, BUT, what IS strong enough. It took FRS to kill two hearts, which means nothing short of Kirin itself would be enough to kill more than one heart(since Kakuzu could probably fend off a Chidori unless he's surprised again like he was with Kakashi). Seeing as the jutsus Kakuzu have pulled are S rank(took 2 Raikiris, which is S rank, to stop one lightning jutsu) and can level entire forests, seems Chidori might not be enough. Therefore, I think Kakuzu has a slight advantage in this department.

Taijutsu, well Kakuzu hasn't really shown that much taijutsu, but seems he's got strength comparable to Tsunade, therefore, I guess Sasuke will always need to be on the defensive. He's also not that slow either, being on par(if not faster) than Kakashi. But, Sasuke has Shunshin and therefore is ahead in terms of speed, but with the Iron skin, he'd need Raiton to pierce through. Therefore, pure weapon fighting won't work.

Now the key question is the extent with which Kakuzu understands the elemental powers of his opponent. We've seen he can easily make use of his element combos such as fire+wind to boost the fire, therefore it wouldn't be tough for him to figure out Sasuke's 2 affinities and work on that basis.

Basically, I'm giving it to Kauzu but on a hair really. It could go either way, but odds seem to be stacked a bit more for Kauzu if he plays it smart.

[Csdabest]

Kakuzu isn't stupid because he fell for Naruto's plan.... The fact is, Kakuzu reacted in the perfect way he should given the circumstances Naruto showed him. I mean, anybody who knew Naruto would think it'd be normal for him to try 2 times the same thing and Kakuzu was assuming the same, but that's where Naruto's 'plan' came in.

Anyways, for a man who survived idk how many years and also survived a fight with Shodai, I'd say he's at least above average in intelligence.

Now, the actual fight.

Kakuzu can be 5 entities as many as one. And it seems each entity/heart is independent of Kakuzu's "main" body, since it allowed him to get out of Kagemane(independently of whether or not the main mind/body was stuck). So, by that reasoning, I'm guessing they also act independently against genjutsu. Mind you, I'm sure each component isn't an Einstein but at least that means that means genjutsu isn't a simple win either since each heart could detach & attack or try and free the others from genjutsu(assuming the masks can even BE put into genjutsu). Therefore, I'd say it'll take more than genjutsu for a win.

Now, Sasuke has mastered high level ninjutsu as well as Kakuzu. This area is tricky. Mind you, Kakuzu has elemental advantage on his side but as ninjabot said, you don't need elemental advantages if the jutsu is strong enough, BUT, what IS strong enough. It took FRS to kill two hearts, which means nothing short of Kirin itself would be enough to kill more than one heart(since Kakuzu could probably fend off a Chidori unless he's surprised again like he was with Kakashi). Seeing as the jutsus Kakuzu have pulled are S rank(took 2 Raikiris, which is S rank, to stop one lightning jutsu) and can level entire forests, seems Chidori might not be enough. Therefore, I think Kakuzu has a slight advantage in this department.

Taijutsu, well Kakuzu hasn't really shown that much taijutsu, but seems he's got strength comparable to Tsunade, therefore, I guess Sasuke will always need to be on the defensive. He's also not that slow either, being on par(if not faster) than Kakashi. But, Sasuke has Shunshin and therefore is ahead in terms of speed, but with the Iron skin, he'd need Raiton to pierce through. Therefore, pure weapon fighting won't work.

Now the key question is the extent with which Kakuzu understands the elemental powers of his opponent. We've seen he can easily make use of his element combos such as fire+wind to boost the fire, therefore it wouldn't be tough for him to figure out Sasuke's 2 affinities and work on that basis.

Basically, I'm giving it to Kauzu but on a hair really. It could go either way, but odds seem to be stacked a bit more for Kauzu if he plays it smart.

Well this is CS Sasuke. So Flapping Dimensional warping Chidori for the win. but seriously. If Sasuke hits him with Chidori sword. He could spike it out stabbing all 5 hearts. Since these 5 hearts are what gives him his chakra elemetal affinities. I bet he'll ssee the concentration of chakra hearts.

Its going to take more than simple affinity advantage to take on Sasuke. Sasuke fought past it against Temrai when he scuffled with her. Kakuzu biggest thing is he have 5 elements and 5 lives. Thing is. Each time a life is lost an element is lost. So this battle will go don hill most likely. And im pretty sure kakuzu will fall to sharngan genjutsu.

[Forever_Melody]

Well this is CS Sasuke. So Flapping Dimensional warping Chidori for the win. but seriously. If Sasuke hits him with Chidori sword. He could spike it out stabbing all 5 hearts. Since these 5 hearts are what gives him his chakra elemetal affinities. I bet he'll ssee the concentration of chakra hearts.

Its going to take more than simple affinity advantage to take on Sasuke. Sasuke fought past it against Temrai when he scuffled with her. Kakuzu biggest thing is he have 5 elements and 5 lives. Thing is. Each time a life is lost an element is lost. So this battle will go don hill most likely. And im pretty sure kakuzu will fall to sharngan genjutsu.

True, that's why I said 'if he plays smart' and doesn't get a vital heart taken from him.

Now that Chidori spike thingy is kind of tricky since Sasuke hasn't used it again but I'm assuming it's simply a variant of the Chidori sword, whose range is also 5m.

That means, IF(look at the if here) Kakuzu was smart enough to stay out of range(and do it right) and use long range jutsus, he could work past Sasuke deadly close/mid range jutsus.

Besides, elemental advantages aren't the biggest factor considering the sheer brute force of Kakuzu's jutsus. He can level an entire forest with one jutsu. All Sasuke has which is comparable in destruction is Kirin. Just as we're saying a brute force jutsu like Kirin would be enough to do in Kakuzu, similar scenario applies with Sasuke.

And like I said, he IS susceptible to genjutsu, but if he gets caught, he wouldn't be entirely useless since the other hearts can act independently of the "main body" it seems.

I wonder, what would happen if Kakuzu's main body dies but the hearts wouldn't be attached to it? Would they die as well?

[GaaraoftheDesert77]

1. What Manga are you reading.
2. Just because someone has five elements doesnt mean their god.
3. Kakuzu Has no such ability to control a Bijuu.
4. The fight isn't even over yet.
5. Try not to insult people. Specialy for a character that got tricked by a genin KB trick.
6. Kakazuz seems to be weak mined living for money. And would most likely fall to Sasuke Genjutsu.
7. Were using the CS version of Sasuke.
8. Kakuzu hard body is earth element Jutsu. So lightning would rape him.
9. A little bit of Taijutsu. he copied his style froma Taijutsu specialist. Lee admited Sasuke sharingan would put him bove him since he can use lee taijutsu at high speed.

There is seriously nothing Kakuzu can do without it getting countered.
<hr noshade size="1">


So Naruto trainning for a trump card justifies your disrepsect and utter hate for a character how?



ok 1. i didnt say he was God Kakuzu isnt even one of my favorites. 2.Each Akatsuki has to have a Biju and control it when they get it. i think Pein said that. 3.Kakuzu wouldnt fall easily for Genjutsu hes a s-rank criminal for gods sake. 4.Kakuzu doesent have to use his Hard earth body. he has other elements 5.i dont hate Naruto i actualy like him.
[hr]

-snip

[Csdabest]

ok 1. i didnt say he was God Kakuzu isnt even one of my favorites. 2.Each Akatsuki has to have a Biju and control it when they get it. i think Pein said that. 3.Kakuzu wouldnt fall easily for Genjutsu hes a s-rank criminal for gods sake. 4.Kakuzu doesent have to use his Hard earth body. he has other elements 5.i dont hate Naruto i actualy like him.
<hr noshade size="1">


-snip

Your making yaself look bad. No one said YOu said he was god. No memebers has been said they can control bijuus. Pein is using it for a nuke jutsu. And if they were getting jutsu. The statue would have something to do with the control .Plz stop pulling stuff out ya ass. And were has pein ever said that Kakuzu wouldnt fall for Genjutsu. Also you forget. Sasuke has been considered a S-rank Criminal aswell. So your point lol.

[GaaraoftheDesert77]

2. Just because someone has five elements doesnt mean their god.

there u go

[Hemostrat]

I wonder, what would happen if Kakuzu's main body dies but the hearts wouldn't be attached to it? Would they die as well?



I believe that did happen. Hidan stabbed himself when he swallowed Kakuzu's blood and Kakuzu died right as he was about to kill Kakashi. The two masks *fire and wind* went into his body when Chouji was unable to stop them and Kakuzu came back to life.

[GaaraoftheDesert77]

Your making yaself look bad. No one said YOu said he was god. No memebers has been said they can control bijuus. Pein is using it for a nuke jutsu. And if they were getting jutsu. The statue would have something to do with the control .Plz stop pulling stuff out ya ass. And were has pein ever said that Kakuzu wouldnt fall for Genjutsu. Also you forget. Sasuke has been considered a S-rank Criminal aswell. So your point lol.

of course Sasuke is a S-rank Kishi made him that way. and kakuzu is smart enough to avoid Genjutsu because he knows Itachi and Deidara prob told him about it. and im not pulling shit outa my ass u fag.

[Csdabest]

2. Just because someone has five elements doesnt mean their god.

there u go

How is that me stating Kakuzu is a god. Im saying just because someone has 5 elements dont make them invulnerable to someone with two elements. Pein has 5 elements supposedly and I see him far from god like. Learn to actually read and understand a statement and stop assuming

[3shinkyo3]

I'm going for it would be a close call but sasuke would win as i believe kakashi could of beat him one on one and i don't believe sasuke is far off kakashi in sklil.

Kishi also made it that naruto is potentially the most powerful ninja in the manga of NARUTO so quit chucking pointless insults. We get it you don't like sasuke.

[Csdabest]

of course Sasgay is a S-rank Kishis Bitch made him that way. and kakuzu is smart enough to avoid Genjutsu because he knows Itachi and Deidara prob told him about it. and im not pulling shit outa my ass u fag.


Obviously you are of your saying words such a probably told. When there is nothing indicating he said to anyone about genjutsu. Dei wanted to kill Itachi so why would he put it out there that he can reists genjutsu even sharingan genjutsu and ruin his element of suprise. Just because he knows someone doesnt mean he can avoid Genjutsu. Orochimaru knew itachi and was planning on fighting itachi. he got owned by Genjutsu against Itachi. Then Sasuke. now is trapped for eternity by genjutsu by itachi. You are simply pulling stuff out of ya ass. And im debating with myself to stick around and see if you can pull anymore out. Kakuzu hasn't shown any above average intelligence. Simply he has shown to be a money laundaring thug. There is no evidence showing kakuzu being imune to genjutsu. Almost all Shinobi except that of the Uchiha clan has been shown to be affected by genjutsu. Even dei after trainning for it for years got caught in it.

[GaaraoftheDesert77]

How is that me stating Kakuzu is a god. Im saying just because someone has 5 elements dont make them invulnerable to someone with two elements. Pein has 5 elements supposedly and I see him far from god like. Learn to actually read and understand a statement and stop assuming

i did not say Kakuzu is a God to stop jumping to conclusions

[Csdabest]

i did not say Kakuzu is a God to stop jumping to conclusions

Wow...Is your comprehension level zero. I did not say that you said Kakuzu is god. READ. I swear your worst then this other person i know on this forum

[GaaraoftheDesert77]

Obviously you are of your saying words such a probably told. When there is nothing indicating he said to anyone about genjutsu. Dei wanted to kill Itachi so why would he put it out there that he can reists genjutsu even sharingan genjutsu and ruin his element of suprise. Just because he knows someone doesnt mean he can avoid Genjutsu. Orochimaru knew itachi and was planning on fighting itachi. he got owned by Genjutsu against Itachi. Then Sasuke. now is trapped for eternity by genjutsu by itachi. You are simply pulling stuff out of ya ass. And im debating with myself to stick around and see if you can pull anymore out. Kakuzu hasn't shown any above average intelligence. Simply he has shown to be a money laundaring thug. There is no evidence showing kakuzu being imune to genjutsu. Almost all Shinobi except that of the Uchiha clan has been shown to be affected by genjutsu. Even dei after trainning for it for years got caught in it.

Dei didnt get caught in Sasuke Genjutsu and Kakuzu for a S-rank he would try to avoid Sasuke Genjutsu I did not say he will avoid it i mean he would TRY to. well im out im not gonna talk to a Sasuke fangirls anymore so go back to ur boy on boy youi with Sassuke. I got better shit to do.
[hr]

Wow...Is your comprehension level zero. I did not say that you said Kakuzu is god. READ. I swear your worst then this other person i know on this forum

you said "No one said YOu said he was god."

[Csdabest]

I think your reading a different Manga. Dei did get cought in a Genjutsu. You just have the comprehension and analytical skills of a 3rd grade special ed student.
[hr]

Dei didnt get caught in Sasgays Genjutsu and Kakuzu for a S-rank he would try to avoid Sasgays Genjutsu I did not say he will avoid it i mean he would TRY to. well im out im not gonna talk to a Sasgay fanbitch anymore so go back to ur boy on boy youi with Sasgay. I got better shit to do.
<hr noshade size="1">


you said "No one said YOu said he was god."

Yes. CUz no one said that you said kakuzu was a god.
Idiot Translation= You didnt state he was god
Dumbass Translation= No said you called kakuza a god
Retard Translation=*speaks slowly* No one SAID THAT. YOU ARE MIS UNDER-STANDING. WHAT PEOPLE SAID. DO I NEED TO SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU....
Ignorant Translation=STFU and re-read what I said closely.
[hr]
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/09/
Him seeing Him getting eatin away

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/10-11/
SHowing he was under genjutsu

This just proves your wrong.

[GaaraoftheDesert77]

I think your reading a different Manga. Dei did get cought in a Genjutsu. You just have the comprehension and analytical skills of a 3rd grade special ed student.
<hr noshade size="1">


Yes. CUz no one said that you said kakuzu was a god.
Idiot Translation= You didnt state he was god
Dumbass Translation= No said you called kakuza a god
Retard Translation=*speaks slowly* No one SAID THAT. YOU ARE MIS UNDER-STANDING. WHAT PEOPLE SAID. DO I NEED TO SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU....
Ignorant Translation=STFU and re-read what I said closely.
<hr noshade size="1">
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/09/
Him seeing Him getting eatin away

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/10-11/
SHowing he was under genjutsu

This just proves your wrong.

ok then i was wrong about Deidara and Sasuke

[Forever_Melody]

Just a random fact CS, but Deidara states one page later that it isn't a genjutsu, which leads me to believe he DID see part of Sasuke get vaporized(the snakes composing the CS wings) and assumed the rest of Sasuke went with it.

Either it's taht or indeed he fell prey to another genjutsu.

[GaaraoftheDesert77]

ur right Deidara said it wasent a genjutsu

[Csdabest]

He was reffering to the part when Sasuke damn near broke his Jaw. Why would Sharingan Eyes appear behind him in that panel be shown saying he was in genjutsu if it wasnt genjutsu. Those eyes pooped up the same way Itachi popped up behind when he trapped him in genjutsu. And Sasuke already shoved a chidori in himself deactivatinng the bombs

scratch the itachi reverence. But there would be no reason for those eyes to have popped up if Genjutsu wasnt used

[GaaraoftheDesert77]

but y would dei say that

[Csdabest]

Cuz Sasuke is still there after he just saw him die. Him actually being there wasn't an illusion. Sasuke was pretty far away. And at the level of chakra and condition. I dont think he could have completely walked around and got behind him without dei noticing. to the point he was able to get a good size punch on him

[GaaraoftheDesert77]

o well im confused just as dei was so uhhh :?

[badluckartist]

Kirin is DEFINITELY a one-shot kill in this fight, and a character too dumb to overcome a simple KB strategy doesn't have the prerequisites to escape a Genjutsu that's powerful enough to subdue a boss-level summon.

Stupify him with Genjutsu, prepare Kirin, then let Kakuzu "Disappear with the thunder!" Sasuke wins.

EDIT: Oh, and that hard skin is earth element. Chidori makes mince-meat of it the same way Kakashi did with Raikiri.

Three things wrong here. It was definitely not a "simple" Kagebunshin strategy- it was an incredibly risky diversion, and I guarantee you didn't see it happening like that when you first read it. Kakuzu had years of experience, probably with many different types of shinobi. But something tells me he never fought a KB user quite like Naruto. He's a dumbass sometimes, but he uses those things with brutal efficiency and genius when he needs to.

There has been no suggestion so far that genjutsu from the eyes can effect a) multiple ninjas simultaneously and b) opponents that don't even have proper organs with which to attack (eyes, ears, etc.). Either way, Genjutsu for Sasuke is one on one- Kakuzu has him absolutely cornered in this department.

I don't think Kakuzu would have all of his hearts conveniently in one location if the battle had already gotten to "Finish Him" when Sasuke busts out Kirin. Beginning of the match is absolutely implausible because no shinobi uses his trump card immediately. ...Except Naruto, he's an.... exception -_-

And the same thing Kakashi did would have the same end effect on Kakuzu- Kakuzu getting up instantly and blindsiding Sassy in the head with a tentacle ninja boot. So, three and a half things :p

::EDIT:: It's also worth noting that Kakuzu fought Shodaime. If he encountered him after Konoha was formed (he calls him by his title), it's incredibly likely he also has experience against the Uchiha and their Sharingan and family affinity(ies). Just saying, that's all.

[ninjabot]

Well, another thing to note would be how Hidan accidentally killed one of Kakuzu's hearts with a plain ol' taijutsu strike (when he though he tasted Shikamaru's blood and stabbed himself. That's another instance where elemental affinity is of no consequence.

And yeah, you're right about Sasuke assuming the fight's over from hitting him with Chidori, but there's nothing to say he'll be one-hit K.O.ed when Kakuzu strikes back. Assuming the blow hits that is. We all agree that Sasuke's shunshin>Kakashi's, right?

And while Genjutsu might not work on the mask monsters, I don't see them acting independantly. Every attack they've made were performed specifically by Kakuzu, as if they were puppets. If Kakuzu is hit with a Genjutsu, he'll make his bodies attack whatever Sasuke tells him is the enemy.

[badluckartist]

Well, another thing to note would be how Hidan accidentally killed one of Kakuzu's hearts with a plain ol' taijutsu strike (when he though he tasted Shikamaru's blood and stabbed himself. That's another instance where elemental affinity is of no consequence.

And yeah, you're right about Sasuke assuming the fight's over from hitting him with Chidori, but there's nothing to say he'll be one-hit K.O.ed when Kakuzu strikes back. Assuming the blow hits that is. We all agree that Sasuke's shunshin>Kakashi's, right?

And while Genjutsu might not work on the mask monsters, I don't see them acting independantly. Every attack they've made were performed specifically by Kakuzu, as if they were puppets. If Kakuzu is hit with a Genjutsu, he'll make his bodies attack whatever Sasuke tells him is the enemy.

When did I say anything about Kakuzu having to die via elemental manipulation? It's common sense that a stab can take out a heart, isn't it? Hidan struck what he believed was going to be Shikamaru's heart- that was a very out of the ordinary situation for both of them, apparently.

I never said it'd be a one-hitter, but one-hit could be all it takes to swing momentum in a fight. Shunshin doesn't matter with sheer surprise. Kakashi just stabbed the guy through the chest, and then as he turned around, Kakuzu kicked him in what appeared to be the kidney. Sassy doesn't have the Byakugan. And please don't bring up the "Sasuke's shunshin is better than 'X' " argument when it's not needed in the conversation.

There was absolutely NOTHING to suggest that Kakuzu was using them 'like puppets'. There were no chakra threads noted by anybody, No scrolls or seals performed or anything. They moved and attacked completely on their own- unless Kakuzu was a psychic or something (just what this manga is missing- psychic ninja :p).

PS: Gaaraofthedesert guy, stop acting immaturely, or I'm gonna alert the admins. I don't like people acting like 12 year olds when I'm trying to read through a discussion. Thanks.

[ninjabot]

When did I say anything about Kakuzu having to die via elemental manipulation? It's common sense that a stab can take out a heart, isn't it? Hidan struck what he believed was going to be Shikamaru's heart- that was a very out of the ordinary situation for both of them, apparently.

I never said it'd be a one-hitter, but one-hit could be all it takes to swing momentum in a fight. Shunshin doesn't matter with sheer surprise. Kakashi just stabbed the guy through the chest, and then as he turned around, Kakuzu kicked him in what appeared to be the kidney. Sassy doesn't have the Byakugan. And please don't bring up the "Sasuke's shunshin is better than 'X' " argument when it's not needed in the conversation.

There was absolutely NOTHING to suggest that Kakuzu was using them 'like puppets'. There were no chakra threads noted by anybody, No scrolls or seals performed or anything. They moved and attacked completely on their own- unless Kakuzu was a psychic or something (just what this manga is missing- psychic ninja :p).

I didn't say you said it. I said that's something else that needs to be taken into concideration. Neither did I say that you said it'd be a one-hitter. Just stating that one dead heart on your opponent that has multiple hearts is worth taking a glancing blow. And Sasuke's speed is very much important to his fighting style, so I'd be foolish not to bring up his level of speed when explaining why he'll win.

But let's assume that Sasuke hit Kakuzu from 5 meters away with Chidori Sword. Would it matter that Sasuke is surprised that he's still alive? He'd still be 5 meters away, which is good enough a distance to leave him with enough time to plan a counter attack or simply dodge.

And you're taking my puppet analogy WAY to literally. I meant puppet in the sense that they don't do alot outside of spitting out ninjutsu unless mentally forced to do otherwise. When Naruto snuck behind Kakuzu the first time, the bodies didn't turn and counter. Likewise, they all jumped after Naruto at the end of the fight without taking into consideration the fact that the Naruto's they were watching were copies, and there could be more copies behind them. It's because Kakuzu chose not to attack the diversion from behind. He made the decision, they obeyed. Without telling them vocally. Like puppets.

So in conclusion: take out the thing that gives orders via Genjutsu, and you just got a mass of black spaghetti that spits out S-rank jutsu.

[Csdabest]

Yeah. And if Kakuzu continue to move with Chidori sword in him,. Couldn't sasuke just spike it out like he did with itachi???

[badluckartist]

I didn't say you said it. I said that's something else that needs to be taken into concideration. Neither did I say that you said it'd be a one-hitter. Just stating that one dead heart on your opponent that has multiple hearts is worth taking a glancing blow. And Sasuke's speed is very much important to his fighting style, so I'd be foolish not to bring up his level of speed when explaining why he'll win.

Seriously, if you're going to quote me on saying something, then at least use the quote feature. Especially if there's a presumed misunderstanding like this. What's to say it would be a glancing blow? Surprise attacks are just that, surprises. Unfortunately for him, Kakuzu's last surprise was an FRS. Sasuke's speed is important, but Kakuzu is effectively 4 to 5 seperate entities.


But let's assume that Sasuke hit Kakuzu from 5 meters away with Chidori Sword. Would it matter that Sasuke is surprised that he's still alive? He'd still be 5 meters away, which is good enough a distance to leave him with enough time to plan a counter attack or simply dodge.

Null and void via the term "let's assume". You can't just assume one possibility out of a million like that to suit your argument.


And you're taking my puppet analogy WAY to literally. I meant puppet in the sense that they don't do alot outside of spitting out ninjutsu unless mentally forced to do otherwise. When Naruto snuck behind Kakuzu the first time, the bodies didn't turn and counter. Likewise, they all jumped after Naruto at the end of the fight without taking into consideration the fact that the Naruto's they were watching were copies, and there could be more copies behind them. It's because Kakuzu chose not to attack the diversion from behind. He made the decision, they obeyed. Without telling them vocally. Like puppets.

Once again, absolutely nothing to suggest this. The puppets had the obvious strings that at least the reader can see. Even Pain's 30% Body Double technique shows the bodies being controlled elsewhere by the 'hosts'. There was nothing in that fight to suggest that Kakuzu was simply controlling them simultaneously. When the masks re-entered his body, it's likely that they were just his hearts again, another two parts of his body.


So in conclusion: take out the thing that gives orders via Genjutsu, and you just got a mass of black spaghetti that spits out S-rank jutsu.

Just a difference of opinion, really. It really comes down to whether or not tentacle heart monster things would be affected by genjutsu or not. Your way, Sasuke wins, my way Kakuzu wins. Agree to disagree?

[Csdabest]

Since when was the hearts 5 seperate entities. I thought they were all apart of the same concious. And That Kakuzu controlled them. The way they moved with him they seemed to be controlled by Kakuzu.

[ninjabot]

Okay, instead of "assume", replace that with "Let's take another avenue into concideration that is totally possible based on common sense." Better? The way you countered that statement wasn't a way that invalidates my idea. Assumptions aren't invalid unless they're baseless. That wasn't baseless. You can't just ignore one possibility for no good reason whatsoever to suit your argument.

So, taking this very real possibility into consideration, what happens if Sasuke does hit Kakuzu with Chidori Sword instead of just Chidori? And remember: it's your job to disprove my claims, not dismiss them for no reason. Not when they're totally valid atleast. If I were just coming in here and flaming, I'd understand.

And I'll pick my words more carfully from now on, because again, I didn't mean puppets as in kugutsu no jutsu. I meant puppets as in "un-intelligent husks that do nothing unless willed to do so". The beasts have not shown that they're capable of thinking for themselves. Sure they can move by themselves, but how do you know it's their own conviction allowing them to do so? How did that one mask know when to return to Kakuzu's body? Kakuzu re-absorbed the lightning mask without giving any orders to it to come back vocally. Likewise, he performed the handseals to harden his body, using the earth heart to do so instead of the earth heart casting the jutsu on him itself. It was he who used the elemental affinity. The mask didn't cast that jutsu on him. And when he does his first wind-mask jutsu, we see Kakuzu form a handseal before the mask shoots a wind blast out of it's mouth.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/334/11/ Handseal first.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/334/12/ Then the mask performs the jutsu.

In other words, performing a jutsu that Kakuzu MADE IT perform. It simply adhered to his wishes automatically. As if it wer a puppet.

And when I take the time to figure out how to quote others without mangling the post I'll be sure to do so. Until such time, I'll have to settle for posting "wall-o-text" quotes and replies for whatever I need to say. It still gets my point across. I'll agree to disagree though. Not because I simply want to be right so badly that I give up whenever I can't be, but because I don't have the tools to prove that I am.

[Franckie]

Get behind him and Rain Chidori Senbon on him. Slam chidori needles into his back and hearts.

The OP hasn't given Sasuke the knowledge that Kakuzu has five "lives". Sasuke will end up doing the same thing Kakashi did: Look away when he thinks he has won.


Kirin would definitely destroy all 5 hearts with the pure destruction alone.

A Kirin powered by Amaterasu, which Sasuke can't utilize in this fight. Kirin also takes time to set-up, which is hampered by Kakuzu's blasts. Lastly, Kirin is a one-hit attack which is meaningless to Kakuzu unless he's down to his final life.


Sasuke could genjutsu rape. Use chidori flow and send guided weapons at Kakuzu. If Kauzu ever gets to close or a hold of sasuke. Chidori Negashi would be used and kakzu would get paralyzed long enough for sasuke to shove a sword in him.

Attacking from multiple directions is an effective counter against genjutsu, right? Kakuzu can attack from five.


From what I seen Kakuzu is fast. But I beleive Sasuke is much faster with Shunshin. And most likely faster without it as well.

Kakuzu is faster than Kakashi. That means he's on par with Sasuke in terms of speed.


Kakuzu was alright but he didnt really show much skill that will kill Kakashi. Much less Sasuke. Imo Kakashi one on one from the get go would have decimated Kakuzu.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1917/kakashishit3gk9nh4.jpg


Kirin is DEFINITELY a one-shot kill in this fight, and a character too dumb to overcome a simple KB strategy doesn't have the prerequisites to escape a Genjutsu that's powerful enough to subdue a boss-level summon.

Sasuke has fallen for KB tricks too. As a matter of fact, anyone will fall for a KB strategy one way or the other as Kakashi, Neji, Itachi, etc. have all demonstrated as well.

When Kakuzu fought Naruto, he was working on less than 60% of his power; he lost his defense and the usage of two bazookas. Also, Naruto had more info on Kakuzu had on Naruto. Kakuzu's options were limited when he dealt with Naruto, which isn't the case in this fight.


Stupify him with Genjutsu, prepare Kirin, then let Kakuzu "Disappear with the thunder!" Sasuke wins.

Kakuzu wins when he plays dead and spears Sasuke in the back when he looks away. Afterwards, Kakuzu gets a nifty heart for the one he just lost.


EDIT: Oh, and that hard skin is earth element. Chidori makes mince-meat of it the same way Kakashi did with Raikiri.

Chidori is A-rank while Iron Skin, however, is S-rank. Elemental advantage only works for techniques of the same rank.

[Suzuku]

Kakuzu wins. Without Oro Sasuke is far weaker in his base form; and Kakuzu doesn't have any particular disadvantages against Sasuke.

[Csdabest]

The OP hasn't given Sasuke the knowledge that Kakuzu has five "lives". Sasuke will end up doing the same thing Kakashi did: Look away when he thinks he has won.



A Kirin powered by Amaterasu, which Sasuke can't utilize in this fight. Kirin also takes time to set-up, which is hampered by Kakuzu's blasts. Lastly, Kirin is a one-hit attack which is meaningless to Kakuzu unless he's down to his final life.



Attacking from multiple directions is an effective counter against genjutsu, right? Kakuzu can attack from five.



Kakuzu is faster than Kakashi. That means he's on par with Sasuke in terms of speed.



http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1917/kakashishit3gk9nh4.jpg



Sasuke has fallen for KB tricks too. As a matter of fact, anyone will fall for a KB strategy one way or the other as Kakashi, Neji, Itachi, etc. have all demonstrated as well.

When Kakuzu fought Naruto, he was working on less than 60% of his power; he lost his defense and the usage of two bazookas. Also, Naruto had more info on Kakuzu had on Naruto. Kakuzu's options were limited when he dealt with Naruto, which isn't the case in this fight.



Kakuzu wins when he plays dead and spears Sasuke in the back when he looks away. Afterwards, Kakuzu gets a nifty heart for the one he just lost.



Chidori is A-rank while Iron Skin, however, is S-rank. Elemental advantage only works for techniques of the same rank.


1. What makes you think he will do regular chidori instead of one of his variants. Post-time skip Sasuke has rarely performed his Regular Chidori. He has performed his variants more than regular chidori.

2. Amaterasu doesn't power Kirin. Sasuke specificly stated that his katin he shot into the sky was to set up kirin. Amaterasu isnt needed. And Sasuke can move around while setting up kirin. He doesn't need to be a sitting duck. Also kirin should be able to destroy Kakuzu. Kirin is huge. And if its hits and consumes Kakuzu there is no reason why it should destroy all of his hearts. SPecially since the atatck basicaly messes up the whole body.

3. Um yeah but he has to think about it. He controlls the 5 heads. There is nothing indicating that those hearts operate on their own. If Kakuzu gets disabled most likely The hearts will as well.

4. How does kakuzu being faster than kakashi make him on par with Sasuke. Kakuzu showed to be on par with speed with kakashi. It was just his fighting style that out manuvered Kakahsi. Sasuke has shown to greatly trump Kakashi when it comes to speed feats,

5. Sasuke has also tooled Naruto's KB's and learned from his mistakes.

6. kakuzu knows nothing abiut Sasuke and vice versa. So i dont see how that benefits Kakuzu.

7. Sasuke wins when he uses Kirin, Slams chidori senbon into his back, uses Chidori Saber and spikes it out into his body, Genjtusu rapes w/ tsukiyomi or burns to death with amaterasu. Or get out classed in fight capabilities in a long hard battle.

At the most for Kakuzu side it will be a long hard battle deception with a sneak attack. Sasuke ahs multiple ways of disposing of Kakuzu which why i leaned towards him.

[kkck]

Kirin is a one hit ko technique, if sasuke uses it he can take out five hearts as easily as that technique made a hill disappear. Even if he cant use amaterasu to power it up, he can still use kakusu's fire-wind combo to help power up his kirin.
Other than that I could see sasuke putting a fairly decent fight but losing at the end after out a couple of lives.

[Franckie]

1. What makes you think he will do regular chidori instead of one of his variants. Post-time skip Sasuke has rarely performed his Regular Chidori. He has performed his variants more than regular chidori.
What makes you think he'll start off the fight with variants such as Chidori Needles? Sasuke doesn't have prior knowledge on Kakuzu's abilities. He'll stick with his main guns before bringing out the additional artillery.


2. Amaterasu doesn't power Kirin. Sasuke specificly stated that his katin he shot into the sky was to set up kirin. Amaterasu isnt needed. And Sasuke can move around while setting up kirin. He doesn't need to be a sitting duck. Also kirin should be able to destroy Kakuzu. Kirin is huge. And if its hits and consumes Kakuzu there is no reason why it should destroy all of his hearts. SPecially since the atatck basicaly messes up the whole body.
You'll see Sasuke utilizing Amaterasu's heat here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/06/). Also, Sasuke specifically stated Kirin to be unavoidable. But it takes time to set up a blast like what Sasuke used against Itachi, and Sasuke only gets one shot with the attack. Kirin will take out a life, but then again, Kakuzu has five to begin with.


3. Um yeah but he has to think about it. He controlls the 5 heads. There is nothing indicating that those hearts operate on their own. If Kakuzu gets disabled most likely The hearts will as well.

If you click here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/337/09/), you'll see Kakuzu's ghosts operating independently from the main body. While the ghosts are respondent to Kakuzu's will, they possess a sentience of their own.


4. How does kakuzu being faster than kakashi make him on par with Sasuke. Kakuzu showed to be on par with speed with kakashi. It was just his fighting style that out manuvered Kakahsi. Sasuke has shown to greatly trump Kakashi when it comes to speed feats,

Kakuzu's speed = Bottom left (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/336/12/)

Kakuzu was able to track down a Sharingan-user with top-tier speed (ask databook if you want (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437)) and whack him into the ground befor Kakashi even realized what was going on. Kakuzu also intercepted a Raikiri-ing Kakashi without a problem. Both feats speaks volumes about Kakuzu's running speed.


5. Sasuke has also tooled Naruto's KB's and learned from his mistakes.

Sasuke has been snagged by a bunshin trick from both Deidara and Itachi. Oro also caught him off guard by playing the "Lol. I'm dead" card.


6. kakuzu knows nothing abiut Sasuke and vice versa. So i dont see how that benefits Kakuzu.

Prior knowledge can be the difference between life and death. Kakuzu has fought a Sharingan-user before (Kakashi) and he would be familiar with a few of Itachi's abilies. This is one advantage Kakuzu has over Sasuke. Likewise, Sasuke does not know that Kakuzu has five 'lives'. Oro caught Sasuke offguard by playing dead. Kakuzu can do it too.


7. Sasuke wins when he uses Kirin, Slams chidori senbon into his back, uses Chidori Saber and spikes it out into his body, Genjtusu rapes w/ tsukiyomi or burns to death with amaterasu. Or get out classed in fight capabilities in a long hard battle.

Sasuke isn't going to start off the fight with Kirin (using your big guns right off the bat is discouraged). He also has no reason to use Chidori Senbon because he doesn't know about Kakuzu's additional lives.

Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are not an option because Sasuke isn't allowed to utilize the MS as this thread's title dictates.


At the most for Kakuzu side it will be a long hard battle deception with a sneak attack. Sasuke ahs multiple ways of disposing of Kakuzu which why i leaned towards him.

Sasuke could win, but his advantage isn't as great as you imagine it to be. Now, if Sasuke were given prior knowledge on Kakuzu's abilities, I'd lean towards him winning the fight.


Kirin is a one hit ko technique, if sasuke uses it he can take out five hearts as easily as that technique made a hill disappear. Even if he cant use amaterasu to power it up, he can still use kakusu's fire-wind combo to help power up his kirin.

Kirin is a one hit KO technique when used against normal fodder, but Kakuzu isn't exactly ordinary. The odds of him being able to survive an attack are quite decent.

As for using the fire + wind combo to power-up Kirin, Kakuzu will slam Sasuke into the ground before that happens, similar to how Kakuzu caught Kakashi unprepared for melee when Kakuzu forced Kakashi to deal with the combo.

[Csdabest]

What makes you think he'll start off the fight with variants such as Chidori Needles? Sasuke doesn't have prior knowledge on Kakuzu's abilities. He'll stick with his main guns before bringing out the additional artillery.


You'll see Sasuke utilizing Amaterasu's heat here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/06/). Also, Sasuke specifically stated Kirin to be unavoidable. But it takes time to set up a blast like what Sasuke used against Itachi, and Sasuke only gets one shot with the attack. Kirin will take out a life, but then again, Kakuzu has five to begin with.



If you click here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/337/09/), you'll see Kakuzu's ghosts operating independently from the main body. While the ghosts are respondent to Kakuzu's will, they possess a sentience of their own.



Kakuzu's speed = Bottom left (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/336/12/)

Kakuzu was able to track down a Sharingan-user with top-tier speed (ask databook if you want (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437)) and whack him into the ground for Kakashi even realized what was going on. Kakuzu also intercepted a Raikiri-ing Kakashi without a problem. It speaks volumes about Kakuzu's running speed.


Sasuke has been snagged by a bunshin trick from both Deidara and Itachi. Oro also caught him off guard by playing the "Lol. I'm dead" card.



Prior knowledge can be the difference between life and death. Kakuzu has fought a Sharingan-user before (Kakashi) and he would be familiar with a few of Itachi's abilies. This is one advantage Kakuzu has over Sasuke. Likewise, Sasuke does not know that Kakuzu has five 'lives'. Oro caught Sasuke offguard by playing dead. Kakuzu can do it too.



Sasuke isn't going to start off the fight with Kirin (using your big guns right off the bat is discouraged). He also has no reason to use Chidori Senbon because he doesn't know about Kakuzu's additional lives.

Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are not an option because Sasuke isn't allowed to utilize the MS in this thread's title dictates.



Sasuke could win, but his advantage isn't as great as you imagine it to be. Now, if Sasuke were given prior knowledge on Kakuzu's abilities, I'd lean towards him winning the fight.



Kirin is a one hit KO technique when used against normal fodder, but Kakuzu isn't exactly ordariny. The odds of him being able to survive an attack are quite good.

As for using the fire + wind combo to power-up Kirin, Kakuzu will slam Sasuke into the ground before that happens, similar to how Kakuzu caught Kakashi unprepared for melee when Kakuzu forced Kakashi to deal with the combo.

Chidori variants has been his main guns. He used them right off the back against Orochimaru and Itachi clone. And The team 7 encounter.

he went outside. Sasuke specificly stated that he used the katons not amaterasu. Zetsu was specualating. Even then he said he took advantage as it help somehwta. Kirin cans till be used w/o amaterasu. Sasuke was also about to use it at the team 7 encounter and no preperations were made.

Also i dont see how thats Kakuzu hearts acting on their own. He has shown complete control over them. There is nothing suggesting but speculation that they work on their own. We have seen characters multi task befoe. And if that is true. it shows they have to be detached from the body. Despite that Sasuke has already shown to take on multiple people at the same time

No one said Kakuzu was slow. If i came off that way I didnt mean it. But Kakuzu was hidden the smoke which decreases sharingan visibility. And cought Kakashi off guard while he was in mid air. You dont exactly move at fast speeds whole in mid air and aerial attacks is one of the hardest to overcome. And people uspened in the air are seem to be at a disadvantage. This has be demostrated multiple times throughout manga. But Im not saying at all Kakuzu is slow. But to say that he is on par with Sasuke. Who pretime skip w/ shunshin showed to be faster than supersonic waves. But this is not to say kakuzu is slow. he is quite fast and might be ciomparable to Sasuke w.o shunshin.

yeah but sasuke has showened to overcome it as well. And not to get killed and fued up by it till he actually loses the fight. And also Sasuke overcame Orochimaru Im dead card. Nor does Kakuzu have any poisonous techniques to help trick sasuke. Even then Sasuke used His sharingan to cast genjutsu to help.

Kakuzu didnt show to have much knowlege about Sharingan. Just because he was in the same organization as Itachi doesnt mean he knows about it. Zetsu who seems to be a spy didnt even know about Itachi's techniques. And the way Zetsu showed to himself he seems to be concerned about money and not give a damn about anything else.

I know sasuke isnt going to start off the fight with kirin,. Nor is kakzuzu going to start of playing dead. And there is no reason why Sasuke wouldnt start a fight off with Chidori senbon. its almost like raining down shurikens.

Kirin Destoryed a giant Hill like mountain. ANd send shockwaves out destroy and uprooting some of the forest. Your saying it wont destroy all five hearts that are Thats like saying a grenade point blank wont destroy five boils on someone chest. yes you can pop them one at a time. But there are methods of popping multiples one. Naruto Proved this. By destorying two hearts. It severed his cells and wasnt as pure destruvtice put was highly deadly like poison. Kirin looks as if if it were to hti someone there would be anything left cuz lightning for one is hot as hell. And the destructive power combined with that. Is just another story. IF Kakuzu were to survive. He would be completely immobilizie.

[kkck]

@Franckie
I really dont see how kakusu can survive kirin. I know kakuzu is not exactly normal, but the power and speed kirin has is beyond human. Kirin is arguably the most destructive ninjutsu ever done in the manga. I mean, kirin obliterated an entire hill, I simply cannot believe that anything of what kakuzu did could stand a chance againts this. The best kakuzu could do againts kirin is to stop sasuke from ever performing it, which he could do.
The only reason itachi survived kirin is because he happened to have an invincible shield (and yet people complain sasuke is overpowered).

[Akabeth]

Under no extreme circumstances, Kakuzu will win over Sasuke.

His biggest advantage includes being able to separate himself and his experience

I think people need to remember that Kakuzu 'survived' after a battle with Hashirama (1st hokage) This BAMF [Hashirama] was able to withstand AND beat Madara + NINE TAILS!! How and why Kakuzu lived to tell the tale is still unexplained, unless I missed something.

I mean I'm still boggled by the fact that Kishi used his plot-no-jutsu so mercilessly on him... it's 'Naruto' manga after all eh?

[Forever_Melody]

@Franckie
I really dont see how kakusu can survive kirin. I know kakuzu is not exactly normal, but the power and speed kirin has is beyond human. Kirin is arguably the most destructive ninjutsu ever done in the manga. I mean, kirin obliterated an entire hill, I simply cannot believe that anything of what kakuzu did could stand a chance againts this. The best kakuzu could do againts kirin is to stop sasuke from ever performing it, which he could do.
The only reason itachi survived kirin is because he happened to have an invincible shield (and yet people complain sasuke is overpowered).

Kakuzu leveled an entire forest with one wind jutsu. Pretty sure he can achieve destruction levels similar(if not somewhat equal) to Kirin. It took Kakashi two Raikiris(which are each stronger than Sasuke's Chidoris until proven otherwise) to stop one of Kakuzu's Raiton blasts, which puts Kakuzu's elemental jutsus up there with the best we've seen IMO(excluding Kirin and FRS).

[Csdabest]

Yeah. But even if Kakuzu had a good wind jutsu. Kirin speed once its activated is godly. It was total bull shizzle tat Itachi survived it.
[hr]

Under no extreme circumstances, Kakuzu will win over Sasuke.

His biggest advantage includes being able to separate himself and his experience

I think people need to remember that Kakuzu 'survived' after a battle with Hashirama (1st hokage) This BAMF [Hashirama] was able to withstand AND beat Madara + NINE TAILS!! How and why Kakuzu lived to tell the tale is still unexplained, unless I missed something.

I mean I'm still boggled by the fact that Kishi used his plot-no-jutsu so mercilessly on him... it's 'Naruto' manga after all eh?


I fought Mike Tyson. That doesnt mean im a great boxer. Most likely he got tooled. And we dont know the events of Hashirama battling Madara. Too many h had kyuubi he had several bijuu. Too many variables in that battle.

Hasiarama tooled him and he most likely escaped.

[Forever_Melody]

Well I'm just saying Kakuzu has his own arsenal of very destructive jutsus which means Sasuke cannot even afford a near miss hit(least he end up like Kakashi). Seems people shout out Kirin when Kakuzu has jutsus which are near Kirin in level(if it takes 2 S rank jutsus to stop one of his, means it's pretty high up there in rank).

Of course, Kirin has flaws in it's preparation IMO. You can stop the Katon from reaching the sky(with a Suiton). Or you can shoot a Suiton after the Katon to cool the air and stop the creation of the cumulo-nimbus. Or if you had high level of Fuuton mastery, maybe you could even dispel the cloud once it's formed.

IMO, Kirin was a plot tool specifically designed for Itachi. It becomes extremely tricky to use in other situations, hence Sasuke having to prepare it all in advance to set it up(by letting himself be struck by Amaterasu and all that). It's really tricky to use in regular battle situations until a more easy way is shown. Granted, once it DOES activate, it's almost game over. Mind you, it's the same with ALL other jutsus of that caliber. If FRS connects it's over, if Amaterasu touches you its over, if C4 gets into you(and you have no Raiton) it's over etc.

[ninjabot]

Again, Kirin isn't solely made by relying on nature. It's powered up by nature, but that's not the prerequisite that's absolutly needed to perform Kirin, or else Sasuke wouldn't have been able to prepare it when he was going to nuke team 7. Likewise, Kakashi tells us that "Fuuton+Katon can't be stopped with Suiton alone", meaning that if Sasuke fired a Gouryuuka at Kakuzu's wind blast, it would multiply it's destructive force to "Kirin without extra heat" level. Which would be like...S+.

Also, I wouldn't be too sure about jutsu needing to be the same rank inorder for elemental advantage to come into effect. Rather, the ability of the jutsu, because high rank doesn't necessarily equate to high power. It's a combination of high-risk, high-power, and high-difficulty that gives high ranked jutsu their rank. C4 Garuda was S-rank, but Chidori, an A-rank jutsu managed to make it useless. That's one whole rank difference, and it still meant nothing. Maybe it's because of the jutsu type, or because the C-4 bombs were so small they were very fragile, who knows. But it's proof that Sasuke's Chidori isn't completely useless against Kakuzu's earth.

Granted, the same could be said about the wind mask and it's jutsu, but it won't move fast enough to block an already falling Kirin if Sasuke manages to get the handseals off in time.

[Forever_Melody]

Again, Kirin isn't solely made by relying on nature. It's powered up by nature, but that's not the prerequisite that's absolutly needed to perform Kirin, or else Sasuke wouldn't have been able to prepare it when he was going to nuke team 7.
Well until we're shown he can do it without the use of the whole setup, I won't assume he can.

Sasuke was doing a tiger seal in that instance, which is highly used in fire jutsus(hence why people initially thought "that jutsu" was a Katon) so maybe he was preparing to fire the Katon to the sky. It's really just up and in the air speculation at this point, so I'd rather not get into it.


Likewise, Kakashi tells us that "Fuuton+Katon can't be stopped with Suiton alone", meaning that if Sasuke fired a Gouryuuka at Kakuzu's wind blast, it would multiply it's destructive force to "Kirin without extra heat" level. Which would be like...S+.
Well Kakuzu himself uses his own elemental combos(the Katon+Fuuton you showed is a perfect example) so saying Sasuke would win based on simple elemental tricks(when I think someone also stated elemental advantages/disadvantages wouldn't be that big a factor for Kakuzu, so why should it be for Sasuke?) is flawed IMO.


Also, I wouldn't be too sure about jutsu needing to be the same rank inorder for elemental advantage to come into effect. Rather, the ability of the jutsu, because high rank doesn't necessarily equate to high power. It's a combination of high-risk, high-power, and high-difficulty that gives high ranked jutsu their rank. C4 Garuda was S-rank, but Chidori, an A-rank jutsu managed to make it useless. That's one whole rank difference, and it still meant nothing. Maybe it's because of the jutsu type, or because the C-4 bombs were so small they were very fragile, who knows. But it's proof that Sasuke's Chidori isn't completely useless against Kakuzu's earth.
Lightning > Earth so yes, Sasuke's Chidori would help against the Earth Armor.

Like said earlier, elemental advantages can cover a difference in jutsu power levels, but only to a certain degree IMO. IF the power difference is too great(ex: an S rank vs a D rank) then elemental advantages won't matter anymore.

Example, assume Amaterasu was a Katon. Do you think a low level Suito would be enough to stop it?

Now in the case of similar levels(i.e one rank apart is still similar enough IMO), yes elemental advantages can indeed cover that difference in power levels.


Granted, the same could be said about the wind mask and it's jutsu, but it won't move fast enough to block an already falling Kirin if Sasuke manages to get the handseals off in time.
Well I never said it would be, just saying that Kakuzu also has his fair share of powerful jutsus which IMO can compare to Kirin(i.e they hurt...a lot...).

[ninjabot]

I get what you're saying, and I don't have valid proof that Kirin can be performed without Katon...but after performing his handseals, Sasuke raised one hand to the sky. Why would he do that, if he needed to fire the Gouryuuka into the air first? Or did the explosion from blowing the roof off give enough heat to perform Kirin? I'm still relying on my theory, but won't push it on anyone.

And you summed up my views on elemental affinities perfectly, thanks. That's what I was saying when someone, I forget who, claimed that Chidori wasn't strong enough to peirce Kakuzu's hierro...err...Iron Skin.

And @franckie, yeah, the monsters can MOVE on their own. But they're moving BECAUSE they are consciously forced to do so. Moved by thought, not because they're self-aware. Independent from the body, not the mind. Notice the sole panel of Kakuzu staring off into space in the direction that they came from before they come toward him? Or the handseals I spoke of earlier that were needed for his masks to use jutsu? I'm still not convinced otherwise.

[ophidial]

Well I'm just saying Kakuzu has his own arsenal of very destructive jutsus which means Sasuke cannot even afford a near miss hit(least he end up like Kakashi). Seems people shout out Kirin when Kakuzu has jutsus which are near Kirin in level(if it takes 2 S rank jutsus to stop one of his, means it's pretty high up there in rank).

Of course, Kirin has flaws in it's preparation IMO. You can stop the Katon from reaching the sky(with a Suiton). Or you can shoot a Suiton after the Katon to cool the air and stop the creation of the cumulo-nimbus. Or if you had high level of Fuuton mastery, maybe you could even dispel the cloud once it's formed.

IMO, Kirin was a plot tool specifically designed for Itachi. It becomes extremely tricky to use in other situations, hence Sasuke having to prepare it all in advance to set it up(by letting himself be struck by Amaterasu and all that). It's really tricky to use in regular battle situations until a more easy way is shown. Granted, once it DOES activate, it's almost game over. Mind you, it's the same with ALL other jutsus of that caliber. If FRS connects it's over, if Amaterasu touches you its over, if C4 gets into you(and you have no Raiton) it's over etc.

agree, kirin is over-estimated, it might have caused alot of damage
but there are very obvious weaknesses. Also the effects of amaterasu
is also unknown.
I think kirin would be easily dissipated by a wind jutsu from
kakazu, considering his is a S-lvl jutsu as well, so against kakazu, he'll
need alot more than that.

[3shinkyo3]

Why i think sasuke would have a slight advantage in this match is because for a sharingan user kakazu is easy to read, his attacks are elemental jutsus which use hand seals which the sharingan can read thereby indicating what attack is coming and even when he splits each mask is allocated only one element. The real difficulty with kakazu is his ability to use elemental combos strengthening the attack, however even though they are powerful they don't seem unavoidable as kakashi was able to position himself to defend himself and two other people from the attacks. I therefore believe if he didn't have to protect ino and choji he could have avoided them meaning sasuke could as well.
The only other style of attack we have seen kakazu do is the tenticles/threads which have shown to be fast, however they have been cut with chidori so they are not unbreakable plus the threads remain attached to kakazu so if sasuke was caught by them i can't see why chidori current could't be used to free him.

[Eddy01741]

Um, i'm pretty sure for most of his elemental attacks Kakuzu just used his different hearts, no handseals needed.

Kakashi blocked the huge blast of a raiton attack by using two of his own raikiris, so yes, it's blockable, but itt take a ton of chakra to do that.

If Sasuke can pull off a chidori current while being wrapped around with threads like a mummy, then pigs will fly, handseals anybody? Plus, chidori/raikiri itself is designed to cut, so kakashi used it to cut through some of the threads, chidori current just envelopos his body in weak level raiton, it just basically sort of stuns people that touch him.

[Csdabest]

agree, kirin is over-estimated, it might have caused alot of damage
but there are very obvious weaknesses. Also the effects of amaterasu
is also unknown.
I think kirin would be easily dissipated by a wind jutsu from
kakazu, considering his is a S-lvl jutsu as well, so against kakazu, he'll
need alot more than that.

How would wind jutsu touch Kirin. yes it strong against it. But Kirin is hundred times faster than sound. The Kakuzu wouldnt even know what the jutsu is. ANd once it activated he wont even have time to react.

Amaterasu wont matter. Sasuke was about to use it at Oro base. Developed it w/o Amaterasu and had to of course Pracitice it. So Amaterasu is not needed.

[Shaunlim]

Kirin might be faster than sound but the time needed to prepare it actually = time to prepare a wind jutsu to counter it. e.g blowing away the clouds , cooling the atmosphere or maybe something like neji's kaiten but with fuuton

[Eddy01741]

The thing is, how would kakuzu know htat Sasuke was preparing a kirin? He has no way of knowing as the thread starter did not state that they knew of each others abilities. Sasuke doesn't know about Kakuzu having 5 hearts, Kakuzu doesn't know about kirin. It's just a matter of if Kakuzu can hide the fact that he has five hearts before Sasuke uses Kirin.

Anyways, Sasuke would most likely not make it obvious htat he was preparing a kirin, a guy just shooting fireballs into the sky for no reason would look suspicious, he would probably force Kakuzu into the air and shoot a fireball at him, Kakuzu would dodge, and then bam, thunder cloud.

[3shinkyo3]

people don't normally notice that kakazu was performing hand signs because they are so quick but kakashi's sharingan noticed it when he used the earth jutsu, and even though his hands seals weren't commented on after that i don't see why he has to use hand seals for one of his hearts elements but not the others.
I mentioned chidori current because if kakazu did manage to capture sasuke in his thread things, chidori current would run along them back to a heart thereby damaging it.

[ophidial]

Kirin might be faster than sound but the time needed to prepare it actually = time to prepare a wind jutsu to counter it. e.g blowing away the clouds , cooling the atmosphere or maybe something like neji's kaiten but with fuuton

thanks, i was just about to mention this in reply to the other
guy, kirin is not a jutsu that can be done as a surprise attack.
Even if kakazu didn't know that the fireballs are used to produce
the thunderclouds or what the next attack was, there is a large electrical
buildup as well as the fact that sasukes hands point upwards. This
would be well enough for even naruto to figure out that the attack
would electrical in nature and coming from above.

[Raizen]

Guys, in any battle of sasuke vs X, all he has to do is use kirin . OOh, or all he has to do is use shunsin like he is a fucking lightning and slash the enemy. No way they will see it soming. Or he could pull out jutsus from his ass and BAAAMM He is the VICTOR!!! :notrust

For anyone to say that naruto's KB attacks on kakuzu was stupid and lame is obviously on crack. His genius has been compared to even shikimaru. As said kakuzu has decades of experience and a master of all 5 elements, each at level of S-class.

His speed is better than sharingan kakashi, his attacks comes one after another in all directions. He can divide his hearts and alllow them to escape in times of danger. he needs no handseals. And anyone that does not know his secret can't possibly know about his hearts

[Shaunlim]

people don't normally notice that kakazu was performing hand signs because they are so quick but kakashi's sharingan noticed it when he used the earth jutsu, and even though his hands seals weren't commented on after that i don't see why he has to use hand seals for one of his hearts elements but not the others.
I mentioned chidori current because if kakazu did manage to capture sasuke in his thread things, chidori current would run along them back to a heart thereby damaging it.
Well if that's the case, how come Kakazu can't just diffuse the lightning with his own ??




The thing is, how would kakuzu know htat Sasuke was preparing a kirin? He has no way of knowing as the thread starter did not state that they knew of each others abilities. Sasuke doesn't know about Kakuzu having 5 hearts, Kakuzu doesn't know about kirin. It's just a matter of if Kakuzu can hide the fact that he has five hearts before Sasuke uses Kirin.

Anyways, Sasuke would most likely not make it obvious htat he was preparing a kirin, a guy just shooting fireballs into the sky for no reason would look suspicious, he would probably force Kakuzu into the air and shoot a fireball at him, Kakuzu would dodge, and then bam, thunder cloud.

and Kakazu would just be standing there waiting for the clouds to gather ??

[Eddy01741]

Hey, I'm not exactly a fan of sasuke either. But i'm just saying, just because somebody missed a katon from hitting you is supposed to make you suspicious?

[ninjabot]

The thing about "waiting for clouds to gather" isn't what gives Kakuzu a chance to survive Kirin. Kirin is being prepared in the sky no matter what Sasuke or Kakuzu is busy doing, provided the handseals or the necessary heat is available. The only thing Kakuzu will know is that something big is going to happen.

If Kakuzu is running around attempting to attack Sasuke (though missing due to being slower than he), or having his monsters (whom Kakashi, and therefore Sasuke is fast enough to dodge) keeps launching S-rank after S-rank, whether it be from forgetting the clouds above him, becoming tired from chakra waste, or from being preoccupied trying to keep a bead on Sasuke with huge explosions (he was causing himself) going off all around him, what will stop Sasuke from simply swinging his hand down?

Nothing. Escaping Kirin lies in prevention. Simply end the fight before a Gouryuuka is fired, or it's over. Surely one of this super huge S-ranks can hit Sasuke, right? Hitting a fly with a bazooka is hard, but haveing him get caught in the AoE of an explosion is totally possible. But here's the kicker: this is is curse seal Sasuke. Sasuke who can endure an explosive to the face and keep fighting. He blocked a Goukakkyu from Itachi with a wing aswell. It's only a C-rank, but he didn't use full CS2 either. Only made 1 wing. CS 1.5 I'd say.

And as for strings from Kakuzu attempting to yank out Sasuke's heart, If Sasuke is close enough for that to happen, his sword will take care of the threads before he activate's CS and yanks Kakuzu toward him, where he can Chidori him through the head. Why get rid of 5 hearts when you can get rid 1 brain?

[Shaunlim]

Hey, I'm not exactly a fan of sasuke either. But i'm just saying, just because somebody missed a katon from hitting you is supposed to make you suspicious?
I would say the suddenly becomes dark and charges in the sky that makes u go suspicious.



The thing about "waiting for clouds to gather" isn't what gives Kakuzu a chance to survive Kirin. Kirin is being prepared in the sky no matter what Sasuke or Kakuzu is busy doing, provided the handseals or the necessary heat is available. The only thing Kakuzu will know is that something big is going to happen.

And if he knows something big is happening i doubt he would just stand still and do nothing. Even in Naruto's case he transformed himself or something.



If Kakuzu is running around attempting to attack Sasuke (though missing due to being slower than he), or having his monsters (whom Kakashi, and therefore Sasuke is fast enough to dodge) keeps launching S-rank after S-rank, whether it be from forgetting the clouds above him, becoming tired from chakra waste, or from being preoccupied trying to keep a bead on Sasuke with huge explosions (he was causing himself) going off all around him, what will stop Sasuke from simply swinging his hand down?

When was it even hinted that Sasuke is actually faster than Kakazu ?? And i don't really remember Kakashi escaping from those monster actually...he actually got whacked a couple of times and it was never really shown that Sasuke is faster or as fast as Kakashi.


Nothing. Escaping Kirin lies in prevention. Simply end the fight before a Gouryuuka is fired, or it's over. Surely one of this super huge S-ranks can hit Sasuke, right? Hitting a fly with a bazooka is hard, but haveing him get caught in the AoE of an explosion is totally possible. But here's the kicker: this is is curse seal Sasuke. Sasuke who can endure an explosive to the face and keep fighting. He blocked a Goukakkyu from Itachi with a wing aswell. It's only a C-rank, but he didn't use full CS2 either. Only made 1 wing. CS 1.5 I'd say.


Last I check those are not really powerful compared to the fuuton+ katon combination by Kakazu.


And as for strings from Kakuzu attempting to yank out Sasuke's heart, If Sasuke is close enough for that to happen, his sword will take care of the threads before he activate's CS and yanks Kakuzu toward him, where he can Chidori him through the head. Why get rid of 5 hearts when you can get rid 1 brain?

I got lost after Sasuke activating CS. I mean he gets yanks and then a chidori suddenly gets to his head ?? It's not like he couldn't resist or seperate his monsters to attack.

[Eddy01741]

Well, thunderstorms pop up a bunch in the real world. In my vacation to china, in about a second, it turned from overcast to monsoon like rains (I mean it was PELTING, it was absolutely rediculous) and lightning bolts outside our window, five minutes later, its overcast again. I mean, I'm just saying there is a POSSIBILITY that Kakuzu won't think that something is up.

Anyways, I agree with your points rebbutting against ninjabot.

Also, hitting a fly with a bazooka is hard, but hitting a fly with a large area attack is pretty easy.

Anyways, its only one wing CS because the other was cut off (i think it was in the figh against Orochi, I may be wrong).

[ninjabot]

And again, "thinking something's up" does't equate to "I know I'm gonna have a lightning bolt thrown at me". He can be as suspicious as he wants. Doesn't change a thing. And yes, Sasuke is faster than Kakashi. His shunshin atleast. He has the speed to move without an S-rank nin noticing him, so that's pretty fast. Kakashi hasn't done the same (Kakuzu was distracted when Kakashi attacked from behind). Kakashi was dodging attacks from one monster, saw Chouji and Ino in trouble and moved fast enough to block two lightning jutsu. If he's that effective against multiple masks, and Sasuke's shunshin>Kakashi's speed, Sasuke has no problem.

And you ignored me when I said "while Kirin is being prepared Kakuzu will be attacking Sasuke with S-rank after S-rank". That's the point I'm making: Kakuzu's attacks and movements against Sasuke will not stop Kirin if the jutsu is already in the sky cultivating energy. You quoted me, so it should be impossible for you not to have noticed what I typed. Same with my statement about Goukakkyu only being C-rank. That statement meant that CS2 increases Sasuke's endurance and defensive power, meaning he won't suffer from being "whacked around" the same way Kakashi was. I didn't say anything about a Katon+Fuuton combo. That's where Shunshin comes in.

And as for "yanking Kakuzu toward him", those masks don't separate instantly. If they aren't out of Kakuzu when Sasuke gets ahold of him, they won't escape in time to counter Sasuke. Likewise, the paralyzing surge from Chidori piercing through Kakuzu, even if the head being chopped off isn't fatal, will keep the beasts within him dormant as they'll be paralyzed aswell.

Now if they were out already, that'd be a different story. Oh, and what was the point of retyping my "bazooka and fly" analogy? You only restated the exact same thing I posted. I said that Sasuke CAN get caught in an AoE (Area of Effect), which brings me back to the CS2 statement: it will let him survive a jutsu attack that isn't a direct hit.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

[QUOTE=Csdabest;983232]How would wind jutsu touch Kirin. yes it strong against it. But Kirin is hundred times faster than sound. The Kakuzu wouldnt even know what the jutsu is. ANd once it activated he wont even have time to react.

If Kakuzu use a wind jutsu on the same level as Kirin to defend against Kirin then Kirin will be stop. Even if he use just a A-rank wind jutsu against Kirin, the effect of Kirin will greatly decrease. Also we have to remember that Kirin wouldn't be as powerful/strong/massive as it was against Itachi because there will be no amertasu around to increase it effect. Also as for Kakuzu been able to react to Kirin: Kakuzu had been shown to be faster than Kakashi. Kakashi with is speed was able to react to lightning and cut it in half with Rakiri, so Kakuzu should have more than enough time to react to Kirin.


Amaterasu wont matter. Sasuke was about to use it at Oro base. Developed it w/o Amaterasu and had to of course Pracitice it. So Amaterasu is not needed.

Of course Amaterasu isn't needed but without Amaterasu Kirin wouldn't be as massive and powerful as it was against Itachi.
[hr]


Anyways, Sasuke would most likely not make it obvious htat he was preparing a kirin, a guy just shooting fireballs into the sky for no reason would look suspicious, he would probably force Kakuzu into the air and shoot a fireball at him, Kakuzu would dodge, and then bam, thunder cloud.

Most likely Kakuzu wouldn't try to dodge, he would just use a water jutsu to block it.

[Shaunlim]

And again, "thinking something's up" does't equate to "I know I'm gonna have a lightning bolt thrown at me". He can be as suspicious as he wants. Doesn't change a thing. And yes, Sasuke is faster than Kakashi. His shunshin atleast. He has the speed to move without an S-rank nin noticing him, so that's pretty fast. Kakashi hasn't done the same (Kakuzu was distracted when Kakashi attacked from behind). Kakashi was dodging attacks from one monster, saw Chouji and Ino in trouble and moved fast enough to block two lightning jutsu. If he's that effective against multiple masks, and Sasuke's shunshin>Kakashi's speed, Sasuke has no problem.

Well i'm not sure about that S-rank nin part but are u referring to the deidara/tobi moment?? If so deidara manage to avoid being hit and tobi/madara is just toying around. The way he said sasuke was too fast sounded sarcastic to me but maybe that's just me. Also it is not like Kakashi can't use shunshin.


And you ignored me when I said "while Kirin is being prepared Kakuzu will be attacking Sasuke with S-rank after S-rank". That's the point I'm making: Kakuzu's attacks and movements against Sasuke will not stop Kirin if the jutsu is already in the sky cultivating energy. You quoted me, so it should be impossible for you not to have noticed what I typed. Same with my statement about Goukakkyu only being C-rank. That statement meant that CS2 increases Sasuke's endurance and defensive power, meaning he won't suffer from being "whacked around" the same way Kakashi was. I didn't say anything about a Katon+Fuuton combo. That's where Shunshin comes in.
Sorry if it seems that i ignored you on that part but the thing is Kirin is a jutsu where Sasuke directs the lightning from the sky towards his opponent so if he is out, those lightnings won't really do anything.


And as for "yanking Kakuzu toward him", those masks don't separate instantly. If they aren't out of Kakuzu when Sasuke gets ahold of him, they won't escape in time to counter Sasuke. Likewise, the paralyzing surge from Chidori piercing through Kakuzu, even if the head being chopped off isn't fatal, will keep the beasts within him dormant as they'll be paralyzed aswell.

I agree with you that it could go like that but like i have said b4, Kakazu isn't likely to stand there while Sasuke go chidori on him. Not really sure about this but it seems that Sasuke still uses handseals for his chidori, providing Kakazu time to do something. If it doesn't require handseals and Sasuke can go chidori on him just like that, I'm sure Kakazu can still do something (he is a rather experience ninja and he had been doing his tentacle thing for quite some time now).

[Raizen]

In every fight, it seems as if those for sasuke believes he can beat anyone with shunsin and kirin.

Shunsin is a basic jutsu that any ninja knows. Sure sasuke's is fast but what's to say others aren't just as fast if not faster. Like Gai and kakuzu.

And kirin takes a hell of a lot of time to prepare. Giving kakuzu plenty of time to go one attack after another. It is impossible for sasuke to keep dodging all those high rank attacks. Even kakashi got destroyed and he is a high level ninja. Kakuzu has fought for decades, and is quite intelligent at times.

PS. @ shaunlim, good job

[Csdabest]

[QUOTE]

If Kakuzu use a wind jutsu on the same level as Kirin to defend against Kirin then Kirin will be stop. Even if he use just a A-rank wind jutsu against Kirin, the effect of Kirin will greatly decrease. Also we have to remember that Kirin wouldn't be as powerful/strong/massive as it was against Itachi because there will be no amertasu around to increase it effect. Also as for Kakuzu been able to react to Kirin: Kakuzu had been shown to be faster than Kakashi. Kakashi with is speed was able to react to lightning and cut it in half with Rakiri, so Kakuzu should have more than enough time to react to Kirin.



Of course Amaterasu isn't needed but without Amaterasu Kirin wouldn't be as massive and powerful as it was against Itachi.
<hr noshade size="1">


Most likely Kakuzu wouldn't try to dodge, he would just use a water jutsu to block it.


1. He has to know what kind of jutsu it is. Since no hand seals are required or seen hand seals. There is nothing Kakuzu has to go on. Kakuzu wont have enough time to react and Kakashi has sharingan to see high speed movement. Kakuzu dont. He is not countering cuz he doesnt have the speed to match 100s of times the speed of sound. And we dont know the reasning of kakashi cutting a lightbolt in half. It could have came right down on him while he was trainning and he held his hand uphaving it come down. Konoha has had amny fights with the land of light ning. He could have cut through another person lightning jutsu. But so far. Kakashi a better kakashi. Has not shown the ability, speed, or power(maybe Raikiri) to cut a lightning bolt in half. And you forget. Kirin covers a large area. Its not just a single lightning bolt. You can compare it to the lightning that was striking when Kirin was forming.

2. Says who. There is nothing indicating that it contributed to the size. At most it just help heated the sky. This is pure unevidence induced speculation.

[Shaunlim]

In every fight, it seems as if those for sasuke believes he can beat anyone with shunsin and kirin.

Shunsin is a basic jutsu that any ninja knows. Sure sasuke's is fast but what's to say others aren't just as fast if not faster. Like Gai and kakuzu.

And kirin takes a hell of a lot of time to prepare. Giving kakuzu plenty of time to go one attack after another. It is impossible for sasuke to keep dodging all those high rank attacks. Even kakashi got destroyed and he is a high level ninja. Kakuzu has fought for decades, and is quite intelligent at times.

PS. @ shaunlim, good job

Agreed. Just because Sasuke's shunshin is shown to be fast ( surprising Deidara and Tobi ), that doesn't mean that others using shunshin isn't as fast or faster than Sasuke.

Let's be fair, Deidara isn't one of the fast ninja around, I mean that guy barely walks......I'm not saying that he is slow or anything but he is just not at the Lee/Gai/Sasuke/Kakashi/Kakazu speed level. And he did manage to avoid Sasuke's attack.


As for Tobi, I just can't help but feel that he was just playing around and being sarcastic about not being able to handle Sasuke's shunshin ( I mean why bother to avoid when you could just let it pass through you ?? ). Not to mention Tobi does have the sharingan which enables him to read his opponents movement.


PS : @raizen thanks =)

[3shinkyo3]

Personally i don't think kirin would be the deciding factor in this fight as if there was any one who could survive it, it would be kakazu solely because sasuke would have to use it when all the hearts were in one body or were reasonable close together otherwise it would be a waste of a very powerful attack which wouldn't be as effective if the enemy had already seen it.

I do not think however that kakazu's speed is near gai in the slightest, the only comment were kakazu speed was mentioned was due to the speed of his thread things other than that all his direct attacks that rely on speed were successful due to being surprise attacks and not actually speed itself. Obviously speed isn't the only factor that determines the winner of the fight.

[Csdabest]

Agreed. Just because Sasuke's shunshin is shown to be fast ( surprising Deidara and Tobi ), that doesn't mean that others using shunshin isn't as fast or faster than Sasuke.

Let's be fair, Deidara isn't one of the fast ninja around, I mean that guy barely walks......I'm not saying that he is slow or anything but he is just not at the Lee/Gai/Sasuke/Kakashi/Kakazu speed level. And he did manage to avoid Sasuke's attack.


As for Tobi, I just can't help but feel that he was just playing around and being sarcastic about not being able to handle Sasuke's shunshin ( I mean why bother to avoid when you could just let it pass through you ?? ). Not to mention Tobi does have the sharingan which enables him to read his opponents movement.


PS : @raizen thanks =)

Madara and Akatasuki member Dei. who has been around the block being S-class criminicals. Zetsu who seems to spy. Itachi who is pretty fast and has fought Uchiha Shisui who was feared by it. Was cought off by Sasuke Shunshin. If someone is a amaster at throwing fireballs. Just because someone does another fireball the same jutsu. Doesnt mean the two will be that strong. So far no character in manga has been shown to beat Supersonic Speeds with it besides Sasuke. And the fact it has been stated to be extremely fast and that his is to great. Means that his Shunshin Must be on a level that other characters hasnt touched.

since their is a destinction made by characters. And obvous statements creating that distinction. It clears that Sasuke feats with it holds to his on and untill Another characters and other characters match or surpass that feat with their own means Sasuke is simply faster with it. Putting him above alot of characters in the speed department. IF not making him the fastest with a jutsu. Everyone beleived Madara moved at the speed of light. Untill people saw it was hyperbole. If that was stated that would have worked as a feat for madara being faster than the speed of light or as fast.

[jodi]

Kirin has it flaw on preparation..
but how would someone think that a katon would be used to prepare a insane raiton?
I think that the problem is more about living to use kirin rather than thinking that Kakuzu can block or dodge it somehow

[Shaunlim]

Madara and Akatasuki member Dei. who has been around the block being S-class criminicals. Zetsu who seems to spy. Itachi who is pretty fast and has fought Uchiha Shisui who was feared by it. Was cought off by Sasuke Shunshin. If someone is a amaster at throwing fireballs. Just because someone does another fireball the same jutsu. Doesnt mean the two will be that strong. So far no character in manga has been shown to beat Supersonic Speeds with it besides Sasuke. And the fact it has been stated to be extremely fast and that his is to great. Means that his Shunshin Must be on a level that other characters hasnt touched.

And like i have mentioned before earlier, Deidara just isn't one of the fast characters no matter how you look at it (he does fly most of the time and barely walks so...) and it seems to be that Madara was just toying with Sasuke. He sounded sarcastic when he said that they cannot handle his shunshin but maybe that's just me. But why bother to dodge when it can just go through you without injuring you??

I do agree though that different using the same jutsu will have different results but we just have not seen anyone else besides Sasuke using shunshin atm (well not mentioned anyway). And about the whole supersonic speed, it's seriusly overestimated. I mean if that was the case, how fast would Lee be with the gates then?? Not to mention that Sasuke's speed with cs/cs2 can be said to be equal to 1-tailed Naruto which doesn't seem to move at the speed of sound or faster.
I'm not sure about what you mean when you said Itachi was surprised by Sasuke's Shunshin.Was is this ?? http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/367/03/.
From what I can see, Itachi wasn't surprised about his speed, if anything just Sasuke's chidori sword. Not to mention that it was just a clone (the whole 30% thing that everyone seems to say when in reference to kbs).

[ninjabot]

^That wasn't one of the 30% clones, it was a Genjutsu. That's why it turned into crows. Likewise, that was the exact moment that Itachi decided: "Okay...he's ready." Sasuke's movement speed was enough to surprise him, or else Itachi wouldn't have felt that Sasuke could survive a fight with him (and he knew he was ready: that's why he went ahead and gave him coordinates for the final fight). Why would he be ready to have his final fight with Sasuke if that exact moment hadn't shown him that Sasuke was as good as he needed to be?

That Chidori Sword wouldn't impress anyone that was fast enough to avoid it. Itachi most likely made an illusion to test Sasuke's overall improvement, not just what new jutsu he knew. In other words, strength, skill, AND speed.

[Shaunlim]

^That wasn't one of the 30% clones, it was a Genjutsu. That's why it turned into crows. Likewise, that was the exact moment that Itachi decided: "Okay...he's ready." Sasuke's movement speed was enough to surprise him, or else Itachi wouldn't have felt that Sasuke could survive a fight with him (and he knew he was ready: that's why he went ahead and gave him coordinates for the final fight). Why would he be ready to have his final fight with Sasuke if that exact moment hadn't shown him that Sasuke was as good as he needed to be?

Speed is not the only factor that affects someone survivability in a fight. Just because someone's speed doesn't surprises another individual doesn't that someone would actually lose a match against the other dude e.g. Gaara vs Lee. Not to mention that you can see it clearly that Itachi's eye was following Sasuke's movement http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/367/03/ and was clearly not surprise. The only thing that surprised him was the fact that Sasuke's chidori suddenly became 5m long.....


That Chidori Sword wouldn't impress anyone that was fast enough to avoid it. Itachi most likely made an illusion to test Sasuke's overall improvement, not just what new jutsu he knew. In other words, strength, skill, AND speed.

Yes it would since people would just assume that you actually have to charged forward to attack using chidori especially if you have seen it before and it has been mentioned several time during the manga that it is almost impossible to avoid anything in midair and like you said yourself overall improvement. Just because he is faster that he used to be doesn't mean that he is actually super fast.

[Raizen]

I speed is such a huge factor in battle, then gai and lee would be unbeatable. The thing is sasuke's speed is not close to their. His movements in the forest of death was against a cocky weakling who use sound slice. But does that mean his attack are faster than sound? No, not neccesarily. Sasuke is the most overestimated character ever.

Also, I agree w/ shaunlim that Madara was merely teasing sasuke and stood there. He had no need to move out of the way. WHy move when you can stand there, take the attack, and show that you are a crazy mofo.

[Eddy01741]

Yeah, I have to say, Sasuke is powerful (especially for his age) but he is definitely hyped up and overestimated. Same with Itachi, because a cloud of mystery surrounds him,a nd you are almost forced to think he's powerful (3second ko of kakashi, anbu captain at age 13, sharingan at 8, etc.)

[jodi]

Yeah, I have to say, Sasuke is powerful (especially for his age) but he is definitely hyped up and overestimated. Same with Itachi, because a cloud of mystery surrounds him,a nd you are almost forced to think he's powerful (3second ko of kakashi, anbu captain at age 13, sharingan at 8, etc.)

Itachi isn't overestimated, IMO
he is damn strong, one of the topest
I mean, come on, he killed his entire clan
with the help of Madara? yeah, but Madara said that Itachi was the one to not let him go for the leaf
well, makes me think that Itachi was a demi-god among shinobi

[bean]

pre timeskip, itachi was the shit...there was no badder badass than him. I was pissed that kishi ruined that image of itachi.


and just fyi, you guys are using overestimated when I think you mean to use overrated.

[En Yang Ji]

pre timeskip, itachi was the shit...there was no badder badass than him. I was pissed that kishi ruined that image of itachi.


and just fyi, you guys are using overestimated when I think you mean to use overrated.


I also mad about how Kishi potrayed Itachi timeskip. Maybe Kishi will show Itachi's true power and more of his jutsu throught the 3rd databook.

[ninjabot]

I speed is such a huge factor in battle, then gai and lee would be unbeatable. The thing is sasuke's speed is not close to their.

Pre-timeskip Sasuke could move at unweighted Lee's speed. Not close to Lee's? It's EQUAL to Lee's. Unweighted Lee's at that. And this was back before the timeskip. Likewise, you mean overrated, not overestimated. Sasuke's actually underestimated.

And no one is saying speed is everything. We're saying Sasuke's speed is better than Kakuzu's.

[Forever_Melody]

Thing is, Sasuke's speed has verbal evidence as well as graphic evidence. Allow me to explain...

Sasuke's speed has been verbally praised by characters, whereas other characters have been shown to be fast, not always has their speed been commented to be as fast as it looks.

For example, many times have we seen a shinobi "appear" behind the unsuspecting foe. Sasuke isn't the first to do it. For the sake of this thread, I'll point out that Kakuzu has done this as well(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/323/04/)). Another time here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/334/04/). Now, as we know, the shinobi's speed increases drastically when Raikiri/Chidori is activated so for another shinobi to catch a Raikiri user(while the jutsu is active) indicates a large portion of speed.

Now, both Sasuke and Kakuzu have had verbal ratings of their speeds. In Sasuke's case, Deidara commented on it and in Kakuzu's case, Kakashi commented on it.

So both Sasuke & Kakuzu have verbal and graphic evidence of their speed. The rest of the interpretation is up to the readers.

Oh and another point to add is that unlike Sasuke, Kakuzu has herculean strength to accompany his speed. Many times has he shown the capacity of being extremely strong.

I'd say merely commenting by saying 'he is faster' or 'he is stronger' means nothing unless we accompany some kind of scenario to it.

Edit: For those saying Kakuzu was controlling the masks like puppets, I found an interesting link here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/335/06/). The top right panels states that the masks move of their own free will.

[kkck]

^ Chidori does not increase the speed of the user. The user needs speed in order to use chidori, that was one of the main points of sasuke's training during chunnin exams.

[ninjabot]

^I think he was just stating that he is considered fast because he was using a jutsu that requires high speed. And yeah, I remember it being stated that those monsters move of their own will. I interpreted that as they need no physical manipulation from the head body to move them. No chakra strings or other physical contact. But even those movements are performed by thoughts that come from Kakuzu. They have hearts, but I don't know about them having brains/minds.

Likewise, how did that maskmonster know that it needed to grab ahold of Shikamaru's knife to help Hidan? Kakuzu knew what it was and what needed to be done, so the only way for his mask (which was inside his body and therefore couldn't see anything) to know what to do is via direct order from Kakuzu himself.

Unless I'm relying on common sense too much.

[Shaunlim]

Pre-timeskip Sasuke could move at unweighted Lee's speed. Not close to Lee's? It's EQUAL to Lee's. Unweighted Lee's at that. And this was back before the timeskip. Likewise, you mean overrated, not overestimated. Sasuke's actually underestimated.

And no one is saying speed is everything. We're saying Sasuke's speed is better than Kakuzu's.
It was equal to Lee before the time-skip. Who's to say that Lee is not faster than Sasuke now and by all means Sasuke is not underestimated. You are saying that Sasuke is faster than Kakazu based on the fact that he surprised some S-class criminal which I have shown to be untrue.


^I think he was just stating that he is considered fast because he was using a jutsu that requires high speed. And yeah, I remember it being stated that those monsters move of their own will. I interpreted that as they need no physical manipulation from the head body to move them. No chakra strings or other physical contact. But even those movements are performed by thoughts that come from Kakuzu. They have hearts, but I don't know about them having brains/minds.

Likewise, how did that maskmonster know that it needed to grab ahold of Shikamaru's knife to help Hidan? Kakuzu knew what it was and what needed to be done, so the only way for his mask (which was inside his body and therefore couldn't see anything) to know what to do is via direct order from Kakuzu himself.

Unless I'm relying on common sense too much.
Well of offense but if that was the case then when Kakazu died, those mask won't have come and helped him unless he knew that he was going to die from Hidan's attack.....

[Forever_Melody]

^ Chidori does not increase the speed of the user. The user needs speed in order to use chidori, that was one of the main points of sasuke's training during chunnin exams.

Yeah but I meant that when using Chidori, the user has to move at the highest speed possible in order to give the stab the highest possible power(see Gai's explanation of Chidori), which means when Kakashi or Sasuke move using regular Chidori/Raikiri(and not the variants in Sasuke's case), they move probably near the highest speed they can, which has been shown to be very fast. The fact that Kakuzu was able to catch someone using something near their fastest speed means he isn't slow either.

But really, that was a detail which didn't really relate to the main point of my post >.> It was one example among a few.

[Raizen]

Pre-timeskip Sasuke could move at unweighted Lee's speed. Not close to Lee's? It's EQUAL to Lee's. Unweighted Lee's at that. And this was back before the timeskip. Likewise, you mean overrated, not overestimated. Sasuke's actually underestimated.

And no one is saying speed is everything. We're saying Sasuke's speed is better than Kakuzu's.
No, I mean overestimated. Here:
Overestimated: to hold in too great esteem or to expect too much from
Overrated: To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly
They are basically the same meaning

And sasuke is no way underestimated. He is thought to be able to take on ledgendary ninjas like the 4th, J-man, and Pein. That is clearly overestimation and foolish denial

[Csdabest]

Who has said Sasuke could beat the 4th, J-man, Pein. Though I do think he can give J-man a run for his money and in sertain cases and enviorments have the ability to beat him.

Only Ninja he Sasuke has been really said to have the ability to beat from what I have seen on different forums, is Orochimaru, and Most Akatsuki members.

[Forever_Melody]

@Raizen: I think they meant that characters in the manga underestimate Sasuke since he's just a child. Same goes for Naruto and such. Most of the bad guys tend to underestimate the good guys in a manga, it's in their cocky attitude lol :p

But yeah, I wouldn't say Sasuke can beat most Akatsuki members. I'd say he has the potential to be among their ranks one day but he doesn't have real distinguished features about himself.

His Sharingan is comparable/equal to Itachi's at best(as far as we've seen IMO).
His Chidori is still under Kakashi's Raikiri in terms of brute power(least according to databooks and until stated otherwise by the manga).
His "weapon infusing" is already a skill Asuma has mastered.
His snake jutsus and Kusanagi are comparable to Oro.

So far, Sasuke(like Naruto for that matter) is an agglomeration of many good shinobis. Kirin and maybe his Shunshin are the 2 things that set him apart which IMO, don't contribute to something truly unique just yet.

[ninjabot]

That all makes perfect sense. And thank you for understanding what I meant about Sasuke being underestimated. Sasuke's strength has never been in brute power, but rather...versatility. He's not the best at much, but he's proficient everywhere that it counts. That's his appeal. That's his schtick. If he can't outrun you, he'll overwhelm you. If he cant overwhelm you, he'll trick you. If he can't trick you, he'll take off the kiddie gloves and nuke you.

And if that doesn't work, then he's screwed. But that's ALOT better than being a one trick pony. Here's hoping for unique-to-Sasuke MS jutsu.

[Csdabest]

@Raizen: I think they meant that characters in the manga underestimate Sasuke since he's just a child. Same goes for Naruto and such. Most of the bad guys tend to underestimate the good guys in a manga, it's in their cocky attitude lol :p

But yeah, I wouldn't say Sasuke can beat most Akatsuki members. I'd say he has the potential to be among their ranks one day but he doesn't have real distinguished features about himself.

His Sharingan is comparable/equal to Itachi's at best(as far as we've seen IMO).
His Chidori is still under Kakashi's Raikiri in terms of brute power(least according to databooks and until stated otherwise by the manga).
His "weapon infusing" is already a skill Asuma has mastered.
His snake jutsus and Kusanagi are comparable to Oro.

So far, Sasuke(like Naruto for that matter) is an agglomeration of many good shinobis. Kirin and maybe his Shunshin are the 2 things that set him apart which IMO, don't contribute to something truly unique just yet.

Very much true. But the only thing suggsting Sasuke Chidori is onpar with Kakashi Raikiri is Deidera mistakenly calling it Raikiri. That could be just because they look exactaly the same and the thing seperating them is Kakashi feat. But who knows maybe that was a way Kishi hinting Sasuke Chidori is as strong as Dei.

But what I want to know is. Is That Dark Chidori stronger than kakashi's Raikiri.

[Shaunlim]

What we meant by Sasuke being overestimated/overrated(whichever you prefer really..) is that all of you are saying that he's moving at the speed of sound or even faster/ he is faster that this character or that/ his Kirin would pwn almost everything / his chidori sword would have killed anyone since it could extend up to 5m and go multi-direction / he can continue avoiding S-rank ninjutsu while preparing Karin / he can just simply shocked everyone and stun them with his chidori nagashi once they hold on to him / all he has to do his get close once someone ties him up with their tentacle and slash off their head just like that.....

[kkck]

@Raizen: I think they meant that characters in the manga underestimate Sasuke since he's just a child. Same goes for Naruto and such. Most of the bad guys tend to underestimate the good guys in a manga, it's in their cocky attitude lol :p

But yeah, I wouldn't say Sasuke can beat most Akatsuki members. I'd say he has the potential to be among their ranks one day but he doesn't have real distinguished features about himself.

His Sharingan is comparable/equal to Itachi's at best(as far as we've seen IMO).
His Chidori is still under Kakashi's Raikiri in terms of brute power(least according to databooks and until stated otherwise by the manga).
His "weapon infusing" is already a skill Asuma has mastered.
His snake jutsus and Kusanagi are comparable to Oro.

So far, Sasuke(like Naruto for that matter) is an agglomeration of many good shinobis. Kirin and maybe his Shunshin are the 2 things that set him apart which IMO, don't contribute to something truly unique just yet.

Very true in general, but I think you missed the chidori variations, which set him appart and maybe a little higher than kakashi (in the sense that kakashi stayed with chidori and raikiri, while sasuke took it a step further).
Even if the variations do not have as much brute force or instant kill ability as raikiri, they are very versatile, something sasuke has exploited in most of his fights specialy againts deidara and itachi.

[Csdabest]

What we meant by Sasuke being overestimated/overrated(whichever you prefer really..) is that all of you are saying that he's moving at the speed of sound or even faster/ he is faster that this character or that/ his Kirin would pwn almost everything / his chidori sword would have killed anyone since it could extend up to 5m and go multi-direction / he can continue avoiding S-rank ninjutsu while preparing Karin / he can just simply shocked everyone and stun them with his chidori nagashi once they hold on to him / all he has to do his get close once someone ties him up with their tentacle and slash off their head just like that.....

Well thats just the thing. He basically can. He has raised and showned himself to be versatile in just about every situation a character can really bring to him. It's the point of being versatile. Able to handle just about any situation. To the point with Sasuke the only way to seem to get around it is having Raiton and more chakra and experience or fuuton.

[Eddy01741]

Raikiri is just a chidori with a tad bit of spatial recomposition (or whatever that was called) added, no? Since chidori is just about pure elemental recomposition and rasengan is pure spatial, raikiri is pure elemental with a little bit of spatial added in (making it a S rank IIRC).

[Raizen]

What we meant by Sasuke being overestimated/overrated(whichever you prefer really..) is that all of you are saying that he's moving at the speed of sound or even faster/ he is faster that this character or that/ his Kirin would pwn almost everything / his chidori sword would have killed anyone since it could extend up to 5m and go multi-direction / he can continue avoiding S-rank ninjutsu while preparing Karin / he can just simply shocked everyone and stun them with his chidori nagashi once they hold on to him / all he has to do his get close once someone ties him up with their tentacle and slash off their head just like that.....
Thank you, this is exactly what I mean.

People lift his shunsin skills to the point where he can basically beat anyone with shunsin, or he can kirin and all enemies fall, or his chidori variants can change into little spikes, enter the enemy and blow them up from the inside :notrust No F-ing way. Ultimately, all the little variants are weaker than chidori in strength. Sure they are more versatile but they aren't as powerful since chidori is basically a full powered attack in the hand while the variants splits the strength

[Csdabest]

Raikiri is just a chidori with a tad bit of spatial recomposition (or whatever that was called) added, no? Since chidori is just about pure elemental recomposition and rasengan is pure spatial, raikiri is pure elemental with a little bit of spatial added in (making it a S rank IIRC).

I never heard that was the reason. Essentially its the same jutsu just Kakashi has a personal feat which i am highly suspect of.

And I read jutsu classification are not purely based on power. But on how many people know them and how complexed it is.It was a very interesting read. But either way its not really a different jutsu. Just kakashi has a strength feat with it that sets him apart,.


Thank you, this is exactly what I mean.

People lift his shunsin skills to the point where he can basically beat anyone with shunsin, or he can kirin and all enemies fall, or his chidori variants can change into little spikes, enter the enemy and blow them up from the inside :notrust No F-ing way. Ultimately, all the little variants are weaker than chidori in strength. Sure they are more versatile but they aren't as powerful since chidori is basically a full powered attack in the hand while the variants splits the strength


Well what do you think versatility is. You can't really say a character is versatile then say he cant do something with a move when he been shown to do it proving his versatile. No one is saying sasuke can shit cat and dogs to eat fish and roaches. People are just stating what Sasuke has done. Which is sadly just about everything. And Sasuke has set his shunshin above everyone elses.

But as for the whole sasuke variants cant enter into someone and blow up from the inside out >_>


http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/367/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/367/05/

Yeah..........>_>

[Shaunlim]

Well thats just the thing. He basically can. He has raised and showned himself to be versatile in just about every situation a character can really bring to him. It's the point of being versatile. Able to handle just about any situation. To the point with Sasuke the only way to seem to get around it is having Raiton and more chakra and experience or fuuton.
And what we have been saying is he isn't all that great, heck we even gave our reasons and evidences........

[Darth Executor]

If he plays smart, Sasuke. Hide + Kirin = instant kill. He probably won't though since he didn't use Kirin against Deidara.

[Shaunlim]

Now that I think about it, since Kirin is lightning couldn't someone just throw a few kunais here and there to redirect Kirin since they are metallic.

[Raizen]

Now that I think about it, since Kirin is lightning couldn't someone just throw a few kunais here and there to redirect Kirin since they are metallic.
Or someone who has better control of lightning element could redirect it back on sasuke

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

If he plays smart, Sasuke. Hide + Kirin = instant kill. He probably won't though since he didn't use Kirin against Deidara.

Hide + Kirin=instant kill? umm....do even understand how kirin work? First he have to blow a fire into the sky which means kakuzu will automatically spot him when he try to do kirin. Also if Kirin=instant kill can you tell me why the fuck itachi was still alive after Sasuke did Kirin on him? There is no such thing as instant kill or unstoppable jutsu in narutoverse. There is always a way to stop even the strongest jutsus.

[Raizen]

Hide + Kirin=instant kill? umm....do even understand how kirin work? First he have to blow a fire into the sky which means kakuzu will automatically spot him when he try to do kirin. Also if Kirin=instant kill can you tell me why the fuck itachi was still alive after Sasuke did Kirin on him? There is no such thing as instant kill or unstoppable jutsu in narutoverse. There is always a way to stop even the strongest jutsus.
Not only that the strongest jutsus has the biggest side effect.
ex. You die, or ur life is quickly being absorbed, or your soul is sealed away

[ninjabot]

Is everyone forgetting that the only time Sasuke used Kirin he WAS hiding? When he fired Gouryuuka through the floor of the hideout and out of the roof, he was hiding. He can hide and prepare the jutsu, it's just the fireballs would alert Kakuzu as to where Sasuke's at.

It'd be too late by then, as the fireballs would already have reached the sky. Likewise, all that would be necessary would be for Sasuke to continue shunshin-dashing all around to avoid getting hit by Kakuzu. Once the jutsu is prepared, Sasuke waits for the right moment and...

...Kakuzu disappears with the thunder. Funny thing about this is Kakuzu would be easier to hit than wounded Itachi was, because all that black spaghetti hanging out of him would make him an even larger target. Not to mention his slower movement speed while connected (he jumped to avoid Naruto's FRS instead of running from it, probably due to his awkward size).

[Raizen]

Is everyone forgetting that the only time Sasuke used Kirin he WAS hiding? When he fired Gouryuuka through the floor of the hideout and out of the roof, he was hiding. He can hide and prepare the jutsu, it's just the fireballs would alert Kakuzu as to where Sasuke's at.

It'd be too late by then, as the fireballs would already have reached the sky. Likewise, all that would be necessary would be for Sasuke to continue shunshin-dashing all around to avoid getting hit by Kakuzu. Once the jutsu is prepared, Sasuke waits for the right moment and...

...Kakuzu disappears with the thunder. Funny thing about this is Kakuzu would be easier to hit than wounded Itachi was, because all that black spaghetti hanging out of him would make him an even larger target. Not to mention his slower movement speed while connected (he jumped to avoid Naruto's FRS instead of running from it, probably due to his awkward size).
It takes time for the fire to prepare kirin, time that sasuke does not have especially since kakuzu is firing off one elemental blast after another.
Also u talk as if kirin is a one hit kill. Kakuzu has 5 damn hearts. No way one blast can take out all five. Not only that kakuzu has displayed speed on par with kakashi, meaning sasuke won't get away

[Baron Hugenstein]

It takes time for the fire to prepare kirin, time that sasuke does not have especially since kakuzu is firing off one elemental blast after another.
Also u talk as if kirin is a one hit kill. Kakuzu has 5 damn hearts. No way one blast can take out all five. Not only that kakuzu has displayed speed on par with kakashi, meaning sasuke won't get away

True, Kakuzu was as fast as Kakashi.
But Kirin isn't in the league of normal blast Jutsus. It has a bigger and higer damage than most. It is possible that Kirin will be capable of taking at least 3 hearts.

[ninjabot]

Being as fast as Kakashi doesn't equal being as fast as Sasuke. Not at all. And yes, Kirin is most definately a one hit kill depending on the opponent. Kakuzu has nothing that's as strong as Susano'o to act as a defensive tool. FRS killed 2 Hearts. Kirin>FRS, therefore, Kirin destroys more hearts. Also, don't forget that Sasuke will have worked through several hearts to begin with with his plain old' sword and Genjutsu (we've no proof his hearts can perform Kai). Hidan destroyed one of the hearts with his spear, so Sasuke's sword can do the same.

And anyway, why destroy a heart when you can destroy the mind that controls the hearts? Sasuke said himself he was gonna guide Kirin through Itachi's skull. Sasuke could even hit Kakuzu before he can release his hearts, getting them all in one fell swoop (1/1000th of a second. He can't remove his hearts that fast).

[Shaunlim]

FRS basically would have killed 5 hearts if all 5 was present there since it acts like a poison. Besides that, I still don't see the point of Kirin here. All Kakazu have to do is redirect the lightning towards Sasuke since Kirin is basically lightning from the sky redirect to your opponent. Heck, even if he can't, I still don't see why he could throw a few kunai while waiting for Sasuke to gather Kirin. That would redirect the lightning as well. Lightning rod is all that is needed seriously. Besides, Kakazu won't be staring at Sasuke like Itachi did when Sasuke gathers Kirin.

[ninjabot]

The reason kunai won't alter the course of Kirin is because Sasuke isn't dropping it, he's GUIDING it. Targeting where he wants the jutsu to hit. Likewise, altering Kirin's trajectory with such a small amount of metal would be like a kid altering a speeding train's direction from outside by pushing it with one hand: it just isn't enough for a target THAT large moving THAT fast.

If Kakuzu can pull a telephone pole or a radio tower out of his ninja tool pouch, then he could totally alter Kirin's trajectory. No, no he couldn't.

[kkck]

I think trying to redirect a kirin with a kunai or a wire is making a terrible mistake. First lets take a look at kirin.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/08/
Right on top of the uchiha crest you can see sasuke as a tiny dot. Seeing that is more than enough to see how big kirin actually is. Something that big obviously has a considerable amount of energy.
Has anyone here ever conected a wire to an electricity plug? Those who have will probably have noticed that after a minute or less the wire takes a bright red color because of all the energy going through it. Now lets try to do that with actual lightning and a kunai or a wire. What will happen to it? Naturaly it will melt in way less than a second. To actually redirect lighting you would need a big ass wire that could handle all that energy or a big conveniently placed lighting rod, which is by no means a normal (or even absurd) ninja tool.
This is a quote from wikipedia:

Lightning heats nearby air to about 10,000 °C (18,000 °F) nearly instantly, which is almost twice the temperature of the Sun’s surface. The air around a lightning strike is the hottest place on earth. The heating creates a shock wave that is heard as thunder
Technicaly sasuke should die from using kirin, but I guess this manga isnt all that scientific anyway.
@ninjabot
The kid pushing a train has better odds than the kunai lol:).

[Shaunlim]

@ninjabot : Just because it is being guided, doesn't mean that it couldn't be redirected. Besides, if there are metallic stuff all around, Sasuke would have a harder time collecting Kirin. Not to mention that it is not entirely impossible to redirect it with those kunais. As long as Kakazu is at a lower spot than the kunai, lightning is still going towards that spot. That's the whole point of a lightning rod no?? Besides, I said a few kunais, not one.

@kkck : Doesn't matter if the kunais melt or not. Lightning is directed and Kakazu is safe from it. All Kakazu have to do is be far away from those kunais. Since the whole basic idea of a lightning rod is to protect the building, of course big ass rod or wire is need. However, in this case, all the kunai just needs to change the trajectory of Kirin. Besides, being able to handle that much energy is to assure that if a second lightning comes, it can still be able to protect a structure without someone going to repair it first. Though since Kirin is a one time deal........

Another thing, even if kunai's doesn't work, I still don't see why Kakazu couldn't redirect Kirin with his own pseudo-chidori, he does have lightning elemental recomposition afterall.

[3shinkyo3]

Has it been stated in the manga anywhere that electical attacks can be redirected by the presence of metal. As i don't remember that it has plus if it were true i would assume it is for lightning and not a lightning based jutsu?

[Shaunlim]

No, it's more to a logical assumption and I also would assume that it's only for lightning in general not lightning jutsus. Though, I don't see any reason why it couldn't be the same for lightning jutsus. They are practically the same basically.

[3shinkyo3]

It's just that we saw kirin's body curve when it was being controlled by sasuke which in reality doesn't happen so i don't see why kishi would make it conventional lightning in some aspects and not in others. Therefore the only way i see kakazu redirecting it is by understanding and mimicing sasuke's chakra and using the same technique this all however would have to take place in under a second so i highly doubt it is even possible.

I don't see kirin being the deciding factor in this fight anyway, imo kakashi could have beat kakazu if he wasn't babysitting ino and choji and i don't believe sasuke is that much weaker than kakashi so i think he would analyse kakazu and identify that each mask equated a different element (like kakashi did) and would have taken them out one at a time. I do think it would be a long battle one which sasuke would undoubtedly obtain serious induries in order to make crucial kills (which he seems quite partial to doing), but in the end walk/limp away victorious.

[Shaunlim]

Well, like I said, logical assumption which in any case is still assumption. However, I don't think that Kakazu actually have to use the same technique as Sasuke. All he basically have to do is gather some lightning chakra to his hand and redirect it like what Sasuke did. Another thing is, although it is true that lightning is all that fast, people seems to be forgetting that Sasuke actually have to collect them first. While he is doing that, Kakazu can actually do something to redirect Kirin or blast Sasuke out of his sight.

And like you said, Kirin is not the deciding factor here. I personally believed that Kirin is not a useful jutsu at all even though it is powerful. It's drawback is just too much IMO. While I agree that Kakashi could have beaten Kakazu if he wasn't too busy with taking care of Chouji and Ino, it was mostly on Shikamaru's part that Kakazu's secret was revealed. That said, I think that Sasuke might actually die before killing Kakazu. Reason?? Simply enough is because of Kakazu's iron skin. Yea I know it can be bypass with chidori but remember that if they start the battle one on one, I doubt that Sasuke's first attack would be chidori but rather taijutsu or kenjutsu. Which gives Kakazu a chance to counterattack which could very much be fatal.

[Raizen]

Being as fast as Kakashi doesn't equal being as fast as Sasuke. Not at all. And yes, Kirin is most definately a one hit kill depending on the opponent. Kakuzu has nothing that's as strong as Susano'o to act as a defensive tool. FRS killed 2 Hearts. Kirin>FRS, therefore, Kirin destroys more hearts. Also, don't forget that Sasuke will have worked through several hearts to begin with with his plain old' sword and Genjutsu (we've no proof his hearts can perform Kai). Hidan destroyed one of the hearts with his spear, so Sasuke's sword can do the same.

And anyway, why destroy a heart when you can destroy the mind that controls the hearts? Sasuke said himself he was gonna guide Kirin through Itachi's skull. Sasuke could even hit Kakuzu before he can release his hearts, getting them all in one fell swoop (1/1000th of a second. He can't remove his hearts that fast).
WOW, could u say sasuke lover? :notrust
In the DB, kakshi and sasuke's speed are equal. What does that mean, that they are equally skills in levels of agility. Guess what happened to kakashi, he was overwhelmed by kakuzu and his weird web like thing. Kakuzu can definitely keep up w/ sasuke, not only that he has 5 hearts that act on their own, meaning they attack sasuke. Hmmn, i wonder how he will escape. Maybe he will pull out a "I can't die from anything" pill from his ass:notrust

Kakuzu's ability is also a factor. Like shaunlim said, sasuke won't know about kakuzu's iron skin b4 it is too late. Not only that, lets say sasuke takes out one of kakuzu's hearts. he thinks he is finish just to get blasted with a combo of wind and fire.

Another thing u guys hype up kirin like it is some amazing jutsu. it is a big blast that takes forever to set up. Not only that a more experienced lighting user can redirect it back on sasuke. Not very smart. Kakuzu has lighting elements, meaning he can deflect it. Also, I don't see sasuke being able to set it up and then direct it with kakuzu firing blasts after blasts at sasuke (not even kakshi who has at least 3x the exp sasuke had could escape fully).

[kkck]

^I dont think databook stats are that usefull in this particular thread. In the databook kakusu has lower speed than kakashi, yet in the manga kakusu is shown to be at lest equal to kakashi, if not faster.

I also want to point out that having a metal rod or a lighting afinity is not nearly enough to redirect kirin. Kirin was shown to be capable of reducing a hill to pebbles. If any lighting user could redirect lighting, then kirin isnt a big deal at all since anyone could make one. I seriously doupt that is the case. Also to redirect kirin with metal, you would need a piece of metal large enough to allow the energy to flow from one place to another.
IMO the best ways to effectively avoid kirin are:
1.- DOnt mess with sasuke.:XD
2.- If you must mess with him, kill him before he sets it up.
3.- Bring a long wire with a 30 foot radious to redirect kirin. This is an exageration, but I dont really know how thick it would actually have to be. A not big enough piece of metal or kunai would probably evaporate (literaly lol) from recieving that much energy at once.
4.- Be close to a very resistant lighting rod.
5.- If you arent sure if there is going to be a lighting rod in the arena or you cant get a thick-long ass wire, prepare a lighting rod you can conveniently summon before kirin is shot.
I cant honestly think of anything else....
Other than that I think the fight would be very close. Sasuke's kusanagi sword would most likely slash kakusu like butter. That means that kakusu's best option is to fight at long range. This is also a good idea because it would give him a better chance of avoiding genjutsus. Also most of sasuke's jutsu work in close to mif range, so kakuzu would have even more advantage at long range.
The thing about going long range is that he still has to avoid amaterasu, which is by no means easy. Also having 4 doll who are attached to you moving around doesnt help, since they reprsent more targets for sasuke.
Sasuke also has the speed and shushin thing going for him, so it is not out of question that sasuke can get close to kakuzu and slice a heart.
Obviously if kakusu can avoid of all sasuke's attacks he wins. The same goes for sasuke, if he avoids all the attacks he wins.

[TheChosenOne]

In the DB, kakshi and sasuke's speed are equal. What does that mean, that they are equally skills in levels of agility.

No, that doesn't necessarily mean they are equal in terms of speed, what it means is that their speed is great enough to earn a respective 5. Just because two ninja's have the same skill ranking doesn't make them equal. For example, Jiraiya has a stamina of 5, Naruto shares the ranking of 5 as well. That doesn't mean both of them are dead equal in stamina, Naruto has shown that his stamina exceeds almost everyone in the manga. :)

[Raizen]

No, that doesn't necessarily mean they are equal in terms of speed, what it means is that there speed is great enough that they earn a respective 5. Just because two ninja's have the same skill ranking doesn't make them equal. For example, Jiraiya has a stamina of 5, Naruto shares the ranking of 5 as well. That doesn't mean both of them are dead equal in stamina, Naruto has shown that his stamina exceeds almost everyone in the manga. :)
I guess it is like the Bleach stats huh? Thanks

[Shaunlim]

^I dont think databook stats are that usefull in this particular thread. In the databook kakusu has lower speed than kakashi, yet in the manga kakusu is shown to be at lest equal to kakashi, if not faster.

I also want to point out that having a metal rod or a lighting afinity is not nearly enough to redirect kirin. Kirin was shown to be capable of reducing a hill to pebbles. If any lighting user could redirect lighting, then kirin isnt a big deal at all since anyone could make one. I seriously doupt that is the case. Also to redirect kirin with metal, you would need a piece of metal large enough to allow the energy to flow from one place to another.
IMO the best ways to effectively avoid kirin are:
1.- DOnt mess with sasuke.:XD
2.- If you must mess with him, kill him before he sets it up.
3.- Bring a long wire with a 30 foot radious to redirect kirin. This is an exageration, but I dont really know how thick it would actually have to be. A not big enough piece of metal or kunai would probably evaporate (literaly lol) from recieving that much energy at once.
4.- Be close to a very resistant lighting rod.
5.- If you arent sure if there is going to be a lighting rod in the arena or you cant get a thick-long ass wire, prepare a lighting rod you can conveniently summon before kirin is shot.
I cant honestly think of anything else....
Other than that I think the fight would be very close. Sasuke's kusanagi sword would most likely slash kakusu like butter. That means that kakusu's best option is to fight at long range. This is also a good idea because it would give him a better chance of avoiding genjutsus. Also most of sasuke's jutsu work in close to mif range, so kakuzu would have even more advantage at long range.
The thing about going long range is that he still has to avoid amaterasu, which is by no means easy. Also having 4 doll who are attached to you moving around doesnt help, since they reprsent more targets for sasuke.
Sasuke also has the speed and shushin thing going for him, so it is not out of question that sasuke can get close to kakuzu and slice a heart.
Obviously if kakusu can avoid of all sasuke's attacks he wins. The same goes for sasuke, if he avoids all the attacks he wins.

1. Kakazu didn't really show that he was as fast or faster than Kakashi, more like he outmaneuver him with his tentacles and jutsus. Meaning the very same thing could happen to Sasuke especially since his speed is the same as Kakashi.

2. Doesn't matter how powerful or potent Kirin is. Since Sasuke could redirect it, I don't see any reason why anyone with lightning nature couldn't do the same. About the lightning rod, like I have said, the purpose of those kunais are just to change the trajectory of Kirin, not to conduct it to the earth or anything like it. So it doesn't really matter if it melts or anything. As long as Kirin doesn't go to Kakazu, he is pretty much safe.

3. I really don't see the big deal about Sasuke's kusunagi. It's sharpness if anything is probably less or equal to Asuma's wind knifes. I'm not saying that their are not sharp or anything but it's something else to say that it cuts everything like butter especially since Kakazu has lightning as well. Not to mention more experience with it.

4. I don't think genjutsu really works for Kakazu. The reason is simple. Basically the same thing happens for Shikamaru's jutsu. His heart seems to have their own mind or something like that. So I believe that he can break out of any genjutsu similiar to the way killerbee did. Not to mention that he probably fought the Uchihas before during the old days.

5. Like Raizen said as well, you all make it sounds like Sasuke knows about Kakazu's five hearts. The fact here is he doesn't. Just imagine Sasuke somehow manage to drive a chidori through his chest and slowly walks away. Kakazu can just take him out just like that. Even Kakashi fell for that trick.

6. If Sasuke starts out the fight with taijutsu or kenjutsu (which he normally does), it's pretty much over for him if doesn't spot iron skin in time. Since his chidori kusunagi requires some hand seals as shown in Sasuke vs Hachibi.

7. Sasuke doesn't have MS here, so I don't see the point of bringing up Amateratsu. Even though if Sasuke somehow use it, Kakazu could still try to outrun it while releasing his hearts. In either cases, Kakazu is screwed if he gets hit. Though it is possible that his elemental combos of water could be strong enough to take down Amateratsu but that's just a guess.

[Darth Executor]

Hide + Kirin=instant kill? umm....do even understand how kirin work?

Way, way better than you, apparently.


First he have to blow a fire into the sky which means kakuzu will automatically spot him when he try to do kirin.

If he's stupid enough to stay in that spot, yes. Sasuke's fast. Very fast. He doesn't even have to be anywhere near kakuzu before he gathers the clouds.



Also if Kirin=instant kill can you tell me why the fuck itachi was still alive after Sasuke did Kirin on him?

You're right, Kakuzu would just whip out his Mangekyou Sharingan and use Susanoo to counter it.



There is no such thing as instant kill or unstoppable jutsu in narutoverse. There is always a way to stop even the strongest jutsus.

Where the hell did I say it's instant kill against ANYBODY? It's instant kill against kakuzu. His only defensive jutsu is earth based and lightning just eats right through it.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

[QUOTE=Darth Executor;1053697]Way, way better than you, apparently.


Time to wake up because you must be dreaming or trippin beyond the point of no return.



If he's stupid enough to stay in that spot, yes. Sasuke's fast. Very fast. He doesn't even have to be anywhere near kakuzu before he gathers the clouds.

This show how little you know about the manga cause guess what Kakuzu is fast too. Not only is he fast too he can also create 4 different monsters to help him chase Sasuke down. Also Sasuke is not as fast as to try to place him to be, as shown in his fight against Killerbee. Also i don't see Kakuzu standing in one spot while sasuke is blowing fire into the sky and running around.



You're right, Kakuzu would just whip out his Mangekyou Sharingan and use Susanoo to counter it.

I'm right? I'm sorry but are you having problem seeing what i wrote because no where in it did i state or even come close to inferring that Kakuzu have MS and can use Susanoo.


Where the hell did I say it's instant kill against ANYBODY? It's instant kill against kakuzu. His only defensive jutsu is earth based and lightning just eats right through it.

Guess what? Kakuzu have all 5 elements which means he have Wind element which is strong against lightning.

[kkck]

1. Kakazu didn't really show that he was as fast or faster than Kakashi, more like he outmaneuver him with his tentacles and jutsus. Meaning the very same thing could happen to Sasuke especially since his speed is the same as Kakashi.

2. Doesn't matter how powerful or potent Kirin is. Since Sasuke could redirect it, I don't see any reason why anyone with lightning nature couldn't do the same. About the lightning rod, like I have said, the purpose of those kunais are just to change the trajectory of Kirin, not to conduct it to the earth or anything like it. So it doesn't really matter if it melts or anything. As long as Kirin doesn't go to Kakazu, he is pretty much safe.

3. I really don't see the big deal about Sasuke's kusunagi. It's sharpness if anything is probably less or equal to Asuma's wind knifes. I'm not saying that their are not sharp or anything but it's something else to say that it cuts everything like butter especially since Kakazu has lightning as well. Not to mention more experience with it.

4. I don't think genjutsu really works for Kakazu. The reason is simple. Basically the same thing happens for Shikamaru's jutsu. His heart seems to have their own mind or something like that. So I believe that he can break out of any genjutsu similiar to the way killerbee did. Not to mention that he probably fought the Uchihas before during the old days.

5. Like Raizen said as well, you all make it sounds like Sasuke knows about Kakazu's five hearts. The fact here is he doesn't. Just imagine Sasuke somehow manage to drive a chidori through his chest and slowly walks away. Kakazu can just take him out just like that. Even Kakashi fell for that trick.

6. If Sasuke starts out the fight with taijutsu or kenjutsu (which he normally does), it's pretty much over for him if doesn't spot iron skin in time. Since his chidori kusunagi requires some hand seals as shown in Sasuke vs Hachibi.

7. Sasuke doesn't have MS here, so I don't see the point of bringing up Amateratsu. Even though if Sasuke somehow use it, Kakazu could still try to outrun it while releasing his hearts. In either cases, Kakazu is screwed if he gets hit. Though it is possible that his elemental combos of water could be strong enough to take down Amateratsu but that's just a guess.

Just having a lighting afinity doesnt mean you can redirect lighting. It is something you have to know how to do, othewise any ninja would be able to use kirin or other similar jutsu. Having a lighting afinity gives you the potencial of learning how to redicrect lighting but doesnt mean it is something you can instantly do once you are able to use the element.

I dont think the kunai/ wire redirecting even makes sense. Maybe I am misunderstanding your post. The lighting rod is a posible defence for kirin, but it is apparent that in narutoverse lighting has a more concusive effect that in real live. Kirin did reduce a hill to pebbles.

The thing about the kusanagi chidoru sword is that the sword is already exceptional and it is boosted with chidori to increase the cutting power. We have already seen the power a normal chidori has, and the effect it can have on kakuzu. It is only reasonable that a chidori sword is stronger. Kakuzu's main defence is his earth heart, which means kakuzu's main defence is specially vulnerble to chidori as kakashi proved. The other masks dont seem to harden or anything, so a chidori or a chidori sword could do the trick.

If MS is taken out of the equation, I would say kakuzu wins for sure. Sasuke is good, he has the weapons, and the ability to take out a couple of hearts, but in the end I dont think he will be able to keep up with someone as kakuzu. Of course if he sets up kirin, sasuke wins, but I think it will be very hard to do.

[Shaunlim]

Just having a lighting afinity doesnt mean you can redirect lighting. It is something you have to know how to do, othewise any ninja would be able to use kirin or other similar jutsu. Having a lighting afinity gives you the potencial of learning how to redicrect lighting but doesnt mean it is something you can instantly do once you are able to use the element.

I dont think the kunai/ wire redirecting even makes sense. Maybe I am misunderstanding your post. The lighting rod is a posible defence for kirin, but it is apparent that in narutoverse lighting has a more concusive effect that in real live. Kirin did reduce a hill to pebbles.

The thing about the kusanagi chidoru sword is that the sword is already exceptional and it is boosted with chidori to increase the cutting power. We have already seen the power a normal chidori has, and the effect it can have on kakuzu. It is only reasonable that a chidori sword is stronger. Kakuzu's main defence is his earth heart, which means kakuzu's main defence is specially vulnerble to chidori as kakashi proved. The other masks dont seem to harden or anything, so a chidori or a chidori sword could do the trick.

If MS is taken out of the equation, I would say kakuzu wins for sure. Sasuke is good, he has the weapons, and the ability to take out a couple of hearts, but in the end I dont think he will be able to keep up with someone as kakuzu. Of course if he sets up kirin, sasuke wins, but I think it will be very hard to do.

1. I agree with that I guess but it is possible that Kakazu can grasp the trick for it after seeing Sasuke gathering the lightning. Since he does have a whole lot more of experience with lightning compared to Sasuke.

2. What I meant is this. Lightning rods functions to protect a building structure. This is done with a metal rod placed on top and then wires to redirect the current down to the earth. That's somewhat the basic principle behind it. So what I mean is if you throw around 10-20 kunais(which are metals) stuck to the ground, it basically acts like a lightning rod or something similar in concept as long as you are at a lower ground(take the Uchiha hideout for example). Basically, even if the kunais melt or anything or the current doesn't get directed to the ground, Kirin is still redirected to the kunais. Meaning as long as Kakazu is away from the kunais, he should be safe. However, this is more to a theory more than anything.

3. Sasuke's kusunagi and Orochimaru's kusunagi is different. For me, Sasuke's is more like a regular katana than anything. Even so, I doubt Kakazu would just stand there and get cut or get chidori'ed. The thing is, even if Kakazu dies from chidori(I don't believe that cutting him up would actually kill him since he can just sew himself), Sasuke would just leave him be like how Kakashi did. With that alone, Kakazu can take the opportunity to attack Sasuke. That one attack alone could be lethal.

4. I would not say for sure but the only way I see Sasuke actually winning whether with MS or not is to take out all the hearts simultaneously. Reason is like I have said above, if Kakazu decides on using a killer move on Sasuke at that point, it would be over for him. Also, the way I see it, either Sasuke dies from losing, taking out one heart and then dies from a surprise attack or he somehow manages to take out all five hearts which seems rather impossible at this point.

[ninjabot]

Kakuzu's ability is also a factor. Like shaunlim said, sasuke won't know about kakuzu's iron skin b4 it is too late. Not only that, lets say sasuke takes out one of kakuzu's hearts. he thinks he is finish just to get blasted with a combo of wind and fire.

Sasuke has a Sharingan too you know. Kakashi realized the iron skin was iron skin by watching Kakuzu's handsigns, the same as Sasuke did to Deidara. Sasuke will do the exact same thing again.

And the funny thing about experience in Naruto is that it can be overwhelmed with greater power. Orochimaru? A Sannin, way more experienced than Naruto, gets thrashed by 4tk. Kakuzu has more experience than Naruto does at wind manipulation, but did it help at all? No. Nor did his knowledge of earth jutsu protect him against Kakashi's Raikiri, and I know Kakuzu knew of Raikiri beforehand. Everyone has heard of Konoha's White Fang, the Copy Ninja.

Sasuke's Kusanagi is indeed powerful, as he himself called it an unblockable Kusanagi. The only time it was blocked was when the chakra that covered it was blocked by the same kind of lightning flow. And also when the Kagami Shield deflected it (but that's because the Kagami and Totsuka were made as direct counters to the Kusanagi anyway).

Then there's the paralysis from stabbing his enemy with Chidori Kusanagi or hitting him with Nagashi. And again, how would Kakuzu's hearts disrupt the Genjutsu? Kakuzu controls them, and he is the one that would be Genjutsu'd. I noticed in the databook stats that those who are weak with Genjutsu are usually weak against it aswell. Kakuzu's stat was less than impressive.

[Csdabest]

Sasuke wins cuz he is one of the strongest people Hachibi has ever fought if not the strongest. He is Sasuke level/Kage Level

[Shaunlim]

Sasuke has a Sharingan too you know. Kakashi realized the iron skin was iron skin by watching Kakuzu's handsigns, the same as Sasuke did to Deidara. Sasuke will do the exact same thing again.

And the funny thing about experience in Naruto is that it can be overwhelmed with greater power. Orochimaru? A Sannin, way more experienced than Naruto, gets thrashed by 4tk. Kakuzu has more experience than Naruto does at wind manipulation, but did it help at all? No. Nor did his knowledge of earth jutsu protect him against Kakashi's Raikiri, and I know Kakuzu knew of Raikiri beforehand. Everyone has heard of Konoha's White Fang, the Copy Ninja.

Sasuke's Kusanagi is indeed powerful, as he himself called it an unblockable Kusanagi. The only time it was blocked was when the chakra that covered it was blocked by the same kind of lightning flow. And also when the Kagami Shield deflected it (but that's because the Kagami and Totsuka were made as direct counters to the Kusanagi anyway).

Then there's the paralysis from stabbing his enemy with Chidori Kusanagi or hitting him with Nagashi. And again, how would Kakuzu's hearts disrupt the Genjutsu? Kakuzu controls them, and he is the one that would be Genjutsu'd. I noticed in the databook stats that those who are weak with Genjutsu are usually weak against it aswell. Kakuzu's stat was less than impressive.

1. How did Kakashi even see that handseal ? Oh yea, Chouji was attacking him forcing him to use it in the first place. If Sasuke goes off running to attack and then noticed it(the handseal) before landing the attack, he would still have to be fast enough to actually react and do something about it. Even his chidori kusunagi needs handseals.

2. Now you are changing facts. Just because Kakazu is more experience than Naruto in wind manipulation, doesn't mean he could do something about it since FRS is practically at his hand. While Kirin, is basically lightning from the sky redirected. So there is a difference. One is a shinobi-made jutsu while the other is using a jutsu to guide lightning.

3. Is Kusunagi is only as impressive as it is because there is lightning aka chidori flowing through it. No chakra in that sword = normal katana. It's not the same as Orochimaru's kusunagi and like I have said. People don't just stand around getting slash up, they move about.

4. That paralysis can be easily be diffuse by using his own lightning chakra. Even though if it can't, it's effect is not really permanent.

5. His 5 hearts all basically have their own mind or something. Which have their own chakra type. Meaning it is basically like Hachibi with his bijyuu all over again. That's practically the reason why Shikamaru's jutsu failed and how those mask reentered Kakazu's body after he died.
[hr]

Sasuke wins cuz he is one of the strongest people Hachibi has ever fought if not the strongest. He is Sasuke level/Kage Level

1. Killerbee wasn't exactly 100% when he fought Sasuke. Yea Sasuke wasn't 100% as well but at least he had his gang backing him up.

2. One of the strongest doesn't mean strongest. Yea he fought his brother before who happens to be a Kage but that doesn't put Sasuke at kage level. Their league could have been very well like heaven and earth for all we know.

3. Sasuke with his team backing him up died 2 times from a less than 100% Killerbee. Somehow, I have a feeling that his brother actually did a lot better and his brother also sealed in the Hachibi which could mean that he actually fought a bijyuu and live.

4. That Sasuke has MS which in this matchup doesn't. That and the fact that Sasuke isn't really Kage level.

Also another thing to add. None of you actually mention how Sasuke is going to survive an surprise attack from Kakazu. Seriously, Sasuke isn't going to know that Kakazu have 5 hearts. Once he takes out one and thinks it's over. It's really over for him then.

[kkck]

1. I agree with that I guess but it is possible that Kakazu can grasp the trick for it after seeing Sasuke gathering the lightning. Since he does have a whole lot more of experience with lightning compared to Sasuke.

2. What I meant is this. Lightning rods functions to protect a building structure. This is done with a metal rod placed on top and then wires to redirect the current down to the earth. That's somewhat the basic principle behind it. So what I mean is if you throw around 10-20 kunais(which are metals) stuck to the ground, it basically acts like a lightning rod or something similar in concept as long as you are at a lower ground(take the Uchiha hideout for example). Basically, even if the kunais melt or anything or the current doesn't get directed to the ground, Kirin is still redirected to the kunais. Meaning as long as Kakazu is away from the kunais, he should be safe. However, this is more to a theory more than anything.

3. Sasuke's kusunagi and Orochimaru's kusunagi is different. For me, Sasuke's is more like a regular katana than anything. Even so, I doubt Kakazu would just stand there and get cut or get chidori'ed. The thing is, even if Kakazu dies from chidori(I don't believe that cutting him up would actually kill him since he can just sew himself), Sasuke would just leave him be like how Kakashi did. With that alone, Kakazu can take the opportunity to attack Sasuke. That one attack alone could be lethal.

4. I would not say for sure but the only way I see Sasuke actually winning whether with MS or not is to take out all the hearts simultaneously. Reason is like I have said above, if Kakazu decides on using a killer move on Sasuke at that point, it would be over for him. Also, the way I see it, either Sasuke dies from losing, taking out one heart and then dies from a surprise attack or he somehow manages to take out all five hearts which seems rather impossible at this point.

I dont really believe kakuzu can just look at kirin and get the trick. Even if he grasps the concept and gets the know-how of the jutsu (which in normal circumstances requires a sharingan:o), he would need to have the ability to put that into use. I am not saying that he doesnt have the ability to do that, but it is simply to far fetched that he can do it. Also he would have to do everything pretty fast since he has to learn how to redirect lighting between the time sasuke gathers it and the time he shots it.

I also dont think that just 20 or 30 kunais would work as a lighting rod though. And even if they did, kakusu would have to throw the kunais a couple hundred meters from where he is since kirin is fairly large and has a more concusive effect than real life lighting.

As for both kusanagi's being diferent I dont think that is the case. Even if they are, the kusanagi chidori (or any electrified bladed considering the evidence) can basically slice through normal metal like butter, I dont see how actual flesh (or W/E organic thing kakuzu is made of) would actually resist it.

I still think kakuzu wins, but not easily or without losing a couple of hearts.

[Shaunlim]

I dont really believe kakuzu can just look at kirin and get the trick. Even if he grasps the concept and gets the know-how of the jutsu (which in normal circumstances requires a sharingan:o), he would need to have the ability to put that into use. I am not saying that he doesnt have the ability to do that, but it is simply to far fetched that he can do it. Also he would have to do everything pretty fast since he has to learn how to redirect lighting between the time sasuke gathers it and the time he shots it.

I also dont think that just 20 or 30 kunais would work as a lighting rod though. And even if they did, kakusu would have to throw the kunais a couple hundred meters from where he is since kirin is fairly large and has a more concusive effect than real life lighting.

As for both kusanagi's being diferent I dont think that is the case. Even if they are, the kusanagi chidori (or any electrified bladed considering the evidence) can basically slice through normal metal like butter, I dont see how actual flesh (or W/E organic thing kakuzu is made of) would actually resist it.

I still think kakuzu wins, but not easily or without losing a couple of hearts.

1. While it is true that he would have to learn it fast, the time taken to gather Kirin is exactly short as well. Besides, I don't really believe that Sasuke would actually have the chance to even use Kirin. It simply takes too much time. However, about the redirecting lightning, this is where Kakazu's experience lightning comes in hand. Like he already knows how to do something like it but just never thought of it you know. But like I said, possible assumption.

2. Well not really far away, since Sasuke was pretty close to Itachi and he didn't really looked damaged from Kirin. Either way, the purpose of it is to avoid the full strength of Kirin. I doubt the AoE of Kirin is as strong as the original strike.

3. Well, first of all, Oro's kusunagi looks different. Oro's kusunagi was also able to extend itself and is capable of flight with Oro's control. Not to mention that I remember reading somewhere that Kusunagi is some sort of special sword. Which leads me to believe that it is one of a kind.

4. I personally don't believe that slashing up Kakazu would actually kill him in either cases. Since he basically is like a few lumps of meat combined/sew by his tentacle thingy. About countering Kusunagi, Kakazu can simply, use his kunai and wind chakra together with it. That could probably withstand Kusunagi or even be sharper than it.

5. Well, like I have said, unless Sasuke knew from the start that Kakazu has five hearts, Sasuke is going to go down after taking down a heart or goes down without taking out anything. Unless of course he manages to take out all five hearts at once.

[kkck]

True, sasuke wouldnt probably get a chance to use kirin, which is one of the main reasons I go for kakuzu in this one (secong to not having MS lol). Although I dont think it is posible for kakuzu to learn how to redirect lighting in that moment.
Oro's and sasuke's main diference is the hilt, they are both katanas, although the anime makes oro's sword straight rather than curve. Also we dont now how oro streched his sword. It could be a property of the sword or a jutsu oro uses.
Of course slashing kakuzu wont kill him. My point was that sasuke's sword could easily cut the hearts if he gets the chance. Of course getting the chance is dificult considering kakuzu can easily change to long range mode.
Also sasuke has two elements. While kakuzu could use wind to counter electricity, sasuke could use fire to counter wind. I dont want to get into that though, because it gets absurdly hypothetical lol.
I just dont se sasuke going down without taking out at least 2 hearts lol.

[Shaunlim]

True, sasuke wouldnt probably get a chance to use kirin, which is one of the main reasons I go for kakuzu in this one (secong to not having MS lol). Although I dont think it is posible for kakuzu to learn how to redirect lighting in that moment.
Oro's and sasuke's main diference is the hilt, they are both katanas, although the anime makes oro's sword straight rather than curve. Also we dont now how oro streched his sword. It could be a property of the sword or a jutsu oro uses.
Of course slashing kakuzu wont kill him. My point was that sasuke's sword could easily cut the hearts if he gets the chance. Of course getting the chance is dificult considering kakuzu can easily change to long range mode.
Also sasuke has two elements. While kakuzu could use wind to counter electricity, sasuke could use fire to counter wind. I dont want to get into that though, because it gets absurdly hypothetical lol.
I just dont se sasuke going down without taking out at least 2 hearts lol.

1. Well like I said, possible but assumption nonetheless.

2. I still don't believe they are the same sword though. Either same in property or anything else.

3. While Sasuke could counter with fire, Kakazu could use water as well. Water+wind > Fire + Wind/Lightning. Kakazu just have more advantages in the elements. He is basically like the Avatar(lol)

4. Well, IMO, Sasuke will die after taking out one heart unless he figured out that Kakazu have 5 hearts before fighting him.

[mattiaildivino]

this thread is no sense: why is Sasuke without MS? at least you have to give him the curse seal and Orochimaru's power. in this condition it's clearly that Sasuke lost. if he is as he was when he fought Deidara or Itachi he wins against Kakuzu,if you take him when he fought Killerbee,then Kakuzu wins,maybe. and if they fought when Sasuke has Susanoo,Kakuzu is done for. anyway this thread has no sense.