Naruto Volume 45 (Ch. 413-422) Discussion

[HPTR Fangirl]

You like it or not Pain will lose his fight in Konoha, when I say Pain I am talking about the 6 Bodies. The Bodies are being supplied by his chakra that is coming from somewhere, and that's when we'll see Byakugan Power in action, I don't believe we have seen all the power of Byakugan. The bodies aren't so powerful alone and they are divided now, just because one guy can take someone soul out of his body doesn't mean it's powerful and invincible.
Another point is, Pain is using chakra to control de Bodies, and every time they die and he summons one body, two bodies, he's using his chakra and I don't believe it's infinite.
And we are forgetting the main goal of his invasion, it was to find Naruto and not to destroy Konoha, and it's true because of his strategy in Konoha at this moment.
And Pain in a certain way will lose, because he won't be able to get Naruto and we will see the real power when he appears himself, the bodies is just a ultimate defense, with a weakness that everybody knows.

I'm doubtful about Pain not getting information regarding Naruto's whereabouts. One of Pain's bodies (forget which one) has the ability to read info from people's mind. So he can read Tsunade's mind to know where Naruto is at the moment

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

[QUOTE=Franckie;1054818]
6 bodies is an ability of Pein, and Jiraiya not knowing about it is fair game. Pein used that to his advantage to ambush Jiraiya and secure victory. The scans not only demonstrate Pein possessing superior firepower, but outwitting his opponent as well.

I'm sorry but i'm not a big fan of people jumping into a conversation without fully understanding the conversation, so my advise is to go read his post over and read my post over. I'm not arguing about whether 6 bodies is Pein ability or not and whether it fair game or not, i'm arguing that numbers does matter especially when those numbers are strong.




That "old Hanzou" was still individually stronger than any of the Sannin. Pein would lose against the three Sannin collectively, but he'd stomp anyone of them as long as the fight is 1on1.

A old Hanzou was still stronger than any of the sannins? If you don't mind can you link me the page where that was stated in the manga. Also nowhere in my post does it state or suggest that any of the sannins can beat Pein in a 1on1 fight, as show by him defeating the strongest of the sannins(jiraiya).


It doesn't matter that Jiraiya might have won because he didn't know Pein's secret and Pein used that fact to his advantage in order to turn the tide and win the fight. The two titans fought on an equal playing field and Pein repeatedly had the upperhand against Jiraiya throughout the fight. Besides, it wouldn't have matter anyway if Jiraiya knew what Pein was in advance because he'd still lose if Pein were to drop the hammer on Jiraiya by starting off with all 6 bodies.

Pein repeatedly had the upperhand against Jiraiya? Then i most had imagine the part where Jiraiya and the frog put Pein in a genjutsu and "kill" his three bodies. Also it does matter that Jiraiya would have won had he know Pein secret because he would have won and that shows that once you figure out Pein secret he isn't as godly and all you need his to be Jiraiya level(easier said than done) to defeat him. Also I'm not arguing about Pein using it to his advantage, i'm justing stating a fact that even Pein himself agree with: Had Jiraiya know Pein secret he would have won. Also had Pein started with 6 bodies, all 6 bodies will be dead because of the frog genjutsu and pending on what his secret is Pein himself will be dead.

[TeamKonohamaru]

I'm glad to see killerbee is still alive. Based on the last 2 manga I have a feeling that the konoha clans will be showcased in this fight with pain. We may see shikamaru, hinata, choiji, ino and kibas parents in major fight seens with the pains.

check out this video I found on youtube with pain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRw0h-10G40&feature=rec-fresh

[White Rabbit]

the thing is that only a handful of people know where naruto went and these people don't even know the exact location. so pain has to get to shiho, sakura, tsunade. kakashi or shikamaru first and then maybe find a frog-summoner, force him to bring a frog out and then torturing the little froggy to get to know the location of mount myouboku.
there is no straight way to the information pain needs by just reading out random konoha-nin.
most of the younger citizens of konoha shouldn't even know that naruto is the kyuubis host anyways.

[C4animax]

exactly what i was about to state, seems like an important character has to face pain and MAYBE die from him because of the jutsu used...that makes quite a big list of the good character on the dying list (leave out kakashi and sakura because of kishi's statement).

Don't think naruto'll pop out of nowhere summoned by pain.

Pain's ability seems to be usefull only by having a group of three people (i suppose so he'd have no blind spot) so i suppose the diversion team 'll have to remain close together and that might be what will lead pain to be stopped on rampage.

[TheOneElectric]

the thing is that only a handful of people know where naruto went and these people don't even know the exact location. so pain has to get to shiho, sakura, tsunade. kakashi or shikamaru first and then maybe find a frog-summoner, force him to bring a frog out and then torturing the little froggy to get to know the location of mount myouboku.
there is no straight way to the information pain needs by just reading out random konoha-nin.
most of the younger citizens of konoha shouldn't even know that naruto is the kyuubis host anyways.

Exactly. Just what I was about to say for the third time. I was also about to call a lot of people dumbasses for thinking Pein would quickly get the info and leave. Like you and I have stated only a few people know of Naruto's whereabouts. Those people are unlikely to be easily mind read and soul reaped. They also won't tell Pein that "Naruto isn't here." Even if they happened to be that dumb to even do that Pein would take that as a mere human trying to fool a god about Naruto's whereabouts. Pein will destroy the village until he is absolutely sure that Naruto isn't there. Then he will fuck things up until he finds the whereabouts of Naruto. Retreat is not an option. Finishing the mission and getting the proper information is the goal. Also there is something to say about a self proclaimed god getting his revenge upon the village that dared to send a shinobi in his borders to stop his plans. Really now guys. Think with your brain and not your Konoha fandom.

[bharatsriv]

I'm doubtful about Pain not getting information regarding Naruto's whereabouts. One of Pain's bodies (forget which one) has the ability to read info from people's mind. So he can read Tsunade's mind to know where Naruto is at the moment

even if he reads the mind of tsunade (seriously not gonaa happen) he can't go to myoubyouku b'coz she has never been there ....the only person were jman ..minato and naruto (new heir of the myoubyouku mountains )....so dont trouble yourself by thinking that naruto is going to be attacked while he is there

[Jye24_Nindo]

Exactly. Just what I was about to say for the third time. I was also about to call a lot of people dumbasses for thinking Pein would quickly get the info and leave. Like you and I have stated only a few people know of Naruto's whereabouts. Those people are unlikely to be easily mind read and soul reaped. They also won't tell Pein that "Naruto isn't here." Even if they happened to be that dumb to even do that Pein would take that as a mere human trying to fool a god about Naruto's whereabouts. Pein will destroy the village until he is absolutely sure that Naruto isn't there. Then he will fuck things up until he finds the whereabouts of Naruto. Retreat is not an option. Finishing the mission and getting the proper information is the goal. Also there is something to say about a self proclaimed god getting his revenge upon the village that dared to send a shinobi in his borders to stop his plans. Really now guys. Think with your brain and not your Konoha fandom.

Pein isn't going to fully destroy Konoha because of plot no jutsu. Madara's goal is to do that, remember?

And this is setting up to be very much like when Orochimaru and the sound and sand attacked Konoha. Remember when they invaded they showed all of the snake summons and konoha fodder nin dying. And then what happened? A few chapters later when Sarutobi lectured about the will of fire the top Konoha nin showed up. Right now if you think that Pein will utterly destroy Konoha you're being duped by Kishi.

[Franckie]

I'm sorry but i'm not a big fan of people jumping into a conversation without fully understanding the conversation, so my advise is to go read his post over and read my post over. I'm not arguing about whether 6 bodies is Pein ability or not and whether it fair game or not, i'm arguing that numbers does matter.

I fully understand the conversation. You think he won solely because of the bodies he had in reserve, but DanteSonOfSparda mentioned how Jiraiya dropped his guard. The reason Pein's ambush with his additional bodies worked is because he used Jiraiya's assumption "There has to be a real one somewhere!" against him, similar to how Oro was able to snag Sasuke into the ritual by playing dead. Pein used his 6 bodies ability in such a manner that enabled him to outwit Jiraiya.


An old Hanzou was still stronger than any of the sannins? If you don't mind can you link me the page where that was stated in the manga. Also nowhere in my post does it state or suggest that any of the sannins can beat Pein in a 1on1 fight, as show by him defeating the strongest of the sannins(jiraiya).

Please reread chapter 369. Hanzou is one of three characters who have been listed as "invincible", the other two being Pein and Madara.


Pein repeatedly had the upperhand against Jiraiya? Then i most had imagine the part where Jiraiya and the frog put Pein in a genjutsu and "kill" his three bodies.

Jiraiya needed Hermit Mode just to deal with Summoning Pein alone. Afterwards, when Pein brought out two additional bodies, he pushed Jiraiya into the corner yet again because he nullifed Jiraiya's taijutsu + ninjutsu. Furthermore, the only reason the genjutsu worked as well as it did is because prior knowledge Pein had on Jiraiya's ability to utilize genjutsu turned out to be horribly wrong.


Also it does matter that Jiraiya would have won had he know Pein secret because he would have won and that shows that once you figure out Pein secret he isn't as godly and all you need his to be Jiraiya level(easier said than done) to defeat him. Also I'm not arguing about Pein using it to his advantage, i'm justing stating a fact that even Pein himself agree with: Had Jiraiya know Pein secret he would have won. Also had Pein started with 6 bodies, all 6 bodies will be dead because of the frog genjutsu and pending on what his secret is Pein himself will be dead.

All the power in the world is useless if the odds are stacked against you. We know Hidan is much more powerful than Shikamaru, but Shikamaru defeated Hidan because Shika evened out the odds with prior knowledge + preptime + major help.

Pein's status as an 'unbeatable god' is Kishi's way of stating Pein is the most powerful shinobi we've seen thus far. Fukasaku explains it best when he mentions how no one can beat him without a detailed understanding of his powers. It's not that Pein isn't impossible to beat without prior knowledge. It's just that there just isn't anyone powerful enough to do it. He is so much more powerful than everyone else alive, that people need a detailed understanding of his powers in order to be able to compete. That doesn't mean people like Superman or Blackbeard can't beat him - they're strong enough to beat Pein while hardly lifting a finger. Heck, Naruto by the end of this series should be powerful enough to beat Pein without the need for prior knowledge.

As for the genjutsu, it's highly unlikely the genjutsu would work as you suggest. Jiraiya has to separate each body in order to bind them all with the genjutsu, and it took a "gamble" just to bind three bodies. By the nature of his fighting style he already has a genjutsu defense set up without any specific jutsu.

[TheOneElectric]

Pein isn't going to fully destroy Konoha because of plot no jutsu. Madara's goal is to do that, remember?

And this is setting up to be very much like when Orochimaru and the sound and sand attacked Konoha. Remember when they invaded they showed all of the snake summons and konoha fodder nin dying. And then what happened? A few chapters later when Sarutobi lectured about the will of fire the top Konoha nin showed up. Right now if you think that Pein will utterly destroy Konoha you're being duped by Kishi.

Apparently you don't remember that Jiraiya took care of the behemoth that was the three headed snake. Imagine about 5 3 headed snakes coming in succession into Konoha. Yeah that is what summoning Pain can probably do at one time. Those were less than fodder sound and sand ninja that got owned after Sarutobi talked about the will of fire. If Pein can destroy at least ten city blocks with only the Demon Realm and Animal realm in one shot then imagine what 6 bodies will do when Konoha knows not of their opponent or their opponents numbers strengths and or skills.

Remember Konoha has to tend to the wounded, evacuate the women, children, and general civillians. The elders must be gaurded along with the Hokage...who will need to get the information first and who will want full stats before going into battle blindly. For all Konoha knows they are under attack by at least 100 shinobi. Pein has the advantage in stealth and general chaos causing ability for his whole stay. He will not leave until he gets/learns what he wants. Also their is, like I already stated, something to say about his psyche and getting revenge on the humans who dared to tresspass in a god's territory. Try to understand that.

Konoha will put up a fight...but yeah it won't...yeah I'll let you visualize my senario.

[Darth Executor]

Pain can't take on Konoha solo. He's just causing some chaos so some of his bodies can have an easier time sneaking around. If he was that strong he wouldn't bother with diversions, he'd just walk up to the hokage's office, kill anyone who stands in his way, suck her dry then kill her too and go off to pay Naruto a visit.

[Jye24_Nindo]

Apparently you don't remember that Jiraiya took care of the behemoth that was the three headed snake. Imagine about 5 3 headed snakes coming in succession into Konoha. Yeah that is what summoning Pain can probably do at one time. Those were less than fodder sound and sand ninja that got owned after Sarutobi talked about the will of fire. If Pein can destroy at least ten city blocks with only the Demon Realm and Animal realm in one shot then imagine what 6 bodies will do when Konoha knows not of their opponent or their opponents numbers strengths and or skills.

Remember Konoha has to tend to the wounded, evacuate the women, children, and general civillians. The elders must be gaurded along with the Hokage...who will need to get the information first and who will want full stats before going into battle blindly. For all Konoha knows they are under attack by at least 100 shinobi. Pein has the advantage in stealth and general chaos causing ability for his whole stay. He will not leave until he gets/learns what he wants. Also their is, like I already stated, something to say about his psyche and getting revenge on the humans who dared to tresspass in a god's territory. Try to understand that.

Konoha will put up a fight...but yeah it won't...yeah I'll let you visualize my senario.

Please don't quote me if you don't address anything I said.

Let me reiterate:

Madara's goal is to get revenge on Konoha. The elders and the hokage. Same as Sasuke. You think Kishi will let Pein put Madara and Sasuke out of jobs? No. Konoha will not be destroyed.

Point 2: This is shaping up like Orochimaru's invasion of Konoha. Pein and his goons will destroy a few buildings then Konoha's elite nin will show up.

Point 3: Pein believes AK's goal is world domination, not to destroy the world. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/11/) It would be counterproductive to destroy Konoha.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

I fully understand the conversation. You think he won solely because of the bodies he had in reserve, but DanteSonOfSparda mentioned how Jiraiya dropped his guard. The reason Pein's ambush with his additional bodies worked is because he used Jiraiya's assumption "There has to be a real one somewhere!" against him, similar to how Oro was able to snag Sasuke into the ritual by playing dead. Pein used his 6 bodies ability in such a manner that enabled him to outwit Jiraiya.

He did won solely on the extra body he had in reserve. i know he use them advantageously and smartly but if he didn't have those extra body he would have been defeated right there.



Please reread chapter 369. Hanzou is one of three characters who have been listed as "invincible", the other two being Pein and Madara.


I just did but i still didn't see anywhere it stated that an old Hanzou would have defeat any of the Sannins. Also Hanzou was listed as strong base on what he did when he was younger. It like sarutobi situation: Sarutobi was listed, as you would describe him, the strongest Hokage base on what he did when he was younger but when he was old he couldn't even really defeat orochimaru. I'm sure Sarutobi could have defeat all of the Sannins himself at the time the Sannins were defeated by Hanzou. I don't deny Hanzou strength just like i don't deny Sarutobi strength but i don't think either of them at there old age could have defeat the strongest Sannin Jiraiya and maybe Oro(?).



Jiraiya needed Hermit Mode just to deal with Summoning Pein alone. Afterwards, when Pein brought out two additional bodies, he pushed Jiraiya into the corner yet again because he nullifed Jiraiya's taijutsu + ninjutsu. Furthermore, the only reason the genjutsu worked as well as it did is because prior knowledge Pein had on Jiraiya's ability to utilize genjutsu turned out to be horribly wrong.

It doesn't freaking matter how Jiraiya did it, the fact is that you statement that Pein repeatedly had the upperhand against Jiraiya is false. For that few minute Jiraiya had the upperhand. Also immediately after Jiraiya went Hermit Mode he had the upperhand until Pein summon the other bodies. Also it doesn't matter what Pein prior knowledge is. Jiraiya use that to is advantage just like Pein use his body and secret to his advantge.




All the power in the world is useless if the odds are stacked against you. We know Hidan is much more powerful than Shikamaru, but Shikamaru defeated Hidan because Shika evened out the odds with prior knowledge + preptime + major help.

Pein's status as an 'unbeatable god' is Kishi's way of stating Pein is the most powerful shinobi we've seen thus far. Fukasaku explains it best when he mentions how no one can beat him without a detailed understanding of his powers. It's not that Pein isn't impossible to beat without prior knowledge. It's just that there just isn't anyone powerful enough to do it. He is so much more powerful than everyone else alive, that people need a detailed understanding of his powers in order to be able to compete. That doesn't mean people like Superman or Blackbeard can't beat him - they're strong enough to beat Pein while hardly lifting a finger. Heck, Naruto by the end of this series should be powerful enough to beat Pein without the need for prior knowledge.

Again another BS that have little to do with what i stated in my post. I know Pein is the most powerful shinobi we've seen thus far and that is how i want it because it will show how strong Naruto is when he defeat him. I'm justing stating a fact: Had Jiraiya know Pein secret in that fight, Pein will be dead right now. Pein himself agree with it. I'm just stating the fact.
Also i actually hate this frecking fact because i want Naruto to defeat Pein without some stupid secret he know deciding the fight in his favor.


As for the genjutsu, it's highly unlikely the genjutsu would work as you suggest. Jiraiya has to separate each body in order to bind them all with the genjutsu, and it took a "gamble" just to bind three bodies. By the nature of his fighting style he already has a genjutsu defense set up without any specific jutsu.

That what you say. I don't see anything stopping Jiraiya from effectively using the genjutsu against all 6 bodies especially given the fact that Pein isn't expecting it.

[En Yang Ji]

I don't think the genjutsu would have worked on all 6 bodies. In one of the latest chapters Pein showed the ability to use a very strong genjutsu shield.

If all 6 Peins attacked, with all the abilities shown in the latest chapter, I don't think Jiraiya would of had a chance to use the genjutsu. IMO the Deva realm Pein is probably incredibly strong by himself.

[TheOneElectric]

Please don't quote me if you don't address anything I said.

Let me reiterate:

Madara's goal is to get revenge on Konoha. The elders and the hokage. Same as Sasuke. You think Kishi will let Pein put Madara and Sasuke out of jobs? No. Konoha will not be destroyed.

Point 2: This is shaping up like Orochimaru's invasion of Konoha. Pein and his goons will destroy a few buildings then Konoha's elite nin will show up.

Point 3: Pein believes AK's goal is world domination, not to destroy the world. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/11/) It would be counterproductive to destroy Konoha.


Pein isn't Madara's bitch. His own will is law in his mind. He can do whatever he feels is neccessary. Pein Ravages Konoha is the description given for the next chapter. Missles already took out quite a few buldings...not to mention a giant summon centipede. This guy is doing whatever the hell he feels.

No. Pein will hit Konoha harder than Orochimaru ever could have. I want to see each one of the "elite" take on one body. They would die. It's like Sasori's 100 puppets against Chiyo's 10. Pein has perfect team work. No matter if it is a group of three or two realms, they will take down w/e comes at them.

No. World Domination is not the goal. The goal is to teach the world pain through experience. (Naruto's goal is to teach the world understanding and tolerance without the pain and suffering.) Pein is creating a chakra nuclear bomb. That will be sold to countries and cycled between different factions. Each faction will use it upon the other until everyone knows the horrors of war and why it is fruitless. Pein is intending to shock the world into peace.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/374/11/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/374/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/374/13/

[Devil-buster]

A good chapter....great to know killer bee is alive.....it answered a lot a unanswered questions....like why killer bee summoned the 8-tails when he was winning....also more info on pain....his abilities seem sick....no wonder he calls himself a God..."God Realm".....Konoha is in some deep shit.....Not only is he one of the most powerful ninja ever....he is also extremely smart....meaning he doesnt rely on just pure strength to win.....But I do agree with a lot of people here, I dont think Pain will get his hands on Naruto....then again we dont know all of pains abilities...but still....But I think time is close for tsunade's end.....

[dmizzle]

this chapter iz gr8.....so many things like whoz gana take on da pain bodyz and konan?....also wat do u think narutoz tryna complete? hiz perfected rasen-shuriken?.....naruto has alot of power, sage, kyuubi, and itachiz...listen i think naruto can beat pain wit da proper training and experience....sasukez in over hiz head wit hiz mangekyou sharingan, i think he waz deadlier wen he had the curse seal, konoha iz in sum shit...whoz gana defend dem....jaraiya died....tsunade cant hope 2 beat pain, kakashi cant, neither gai and these r ppl who'll put up a fight, still need 4 more sum1 plez comment

[SMN]

i hope naruto come in the last minute to save every one in the village or stop pain from killing either tsunade or sakura goku style.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

i hope naruto come in the last minute to save every one in the village or stop pain from killing either tsunade or sakura goku style.

I don't see Naruto coming out of nowhere and saving the day. One because is not strong enough. Second because the only way he can get back to Konoha is if Tsunade send for him and i don't think Tsunade will risk the future and all of Jiraiya hope by allowing Naruto to face Pein right now. I'm sure Tsunade know there is no way Naruto could get strong enough in that short amount of time to face someone that defeat the strongest sannins and her former teammate. And Tsunade, more than anybody, know how strong Jiraiya is and he got kill by Pein. Third, Naruto vs. Pein need more devolpment/more drama and there no better way to do this than making Pein destroy some of Konoha and kill a few Konoha ninja and some close to Naruto.

[segua]

I get the feeling that somehow, Konan plays a vital role to Pein. If she gets caught or even captured, Pein will redirect his attention to Konan.

I'm sure that once Pein realized that no one knows exactly where Naruto is, he'll retreat or so. I really want Sakura or even Tsunade or heck, even Shizune fighting that new Pein girl. I swear the new Pein girl is a young Tsunade. And if that new Pein girl is actually Tsunade-Pein, that explains quite a lot.

[TheOneElectric]

I get the feeling that somehow, Konan plays a vital role to Pein. If she gets caught or even captured, Pein will redirect his attention to Konan.

I'm sure that once Pein realized that no one knows exactly where Naruto is, he'll retreat or so. I really want Sakura or even Tsunade or heck, even Shizune fighting that new Pein girl. I swear the new Pein girl is a young Tsunade. And if that new Pein girl is actually Tsunade-Pein, that explains quite a lot.

Just because Ino, Hinata, and 10-10 are useless doesn't mean all Kounoichi are. ESPECIALLY if they are around Pein. The "angel" only got tied up by Jiraiya because she probably had no desire to hurtt him of all people and he KNEW her abilities and weakness.

[Black/Light]

Just because Ino, Hinata, and 10-10 are useless .
Hinata aint useless
(Points to the stuff she did in the last big Leaf team event)

It's because of her that we know MD has Space/Time jutsu as well as the fact that Oro is taking over KaB's body.

[gold349]

i hope naruto come in the last minute to save every one in the village or stop pain from killing either tsunade or sakura goku style.


Kishi bringing Naruto back to fight a half exausted Pain with a few bodies missing isn't going to do anything for me, I want to see Naruto kick Pain ass.... both fresh. Another thing it would show is Naruto is stronger than whole of konoha put together, that too would be lame. Pain and Konan have to lose something to konoha and Konaha has to lose something to Pain and Konan. Naruto should fight Pain and defeat him at some other venue, this should be just focused on Konoha, its clan, the rookies and showcase Akatuksi Pain.:)

[DanteSonOfSparda]

Umm....you just state that pein didn't because of numbers but yet the links you post show him winning because of his number. Pein was only able to do what he did to Jiraiya right there because he had extra number of bodies that Jiraiya didn't know about. Had Pein only have one or three body in that fight he will be dead right now.

While it's true that this situation occured because Pein was able to summon 3 additional bodies, the situation I showed is still a 1on1 situation. What I wanted to prove here is that Pein is not just strong when he can fight with 6 bodies on 1 opponent. If Pein would only be strong when his six bodys are together, I wonder why he would disperse intentionally.
One single body of Pein had the strength to rip sage-jirayas arm off.




Are you comparing Naruto's KB that puff with only one hit with Konoha's Jounins, Chunins, Anbu, Hyuuga clan, and all the others clans ninja?


Yeah, that's what I did, because I wasn't talking about actual strength in the manga. Konoha's Jounins, Chuunins, ANBU, Hyuuga Clan are faceless shinobi without any connection to anything. How would you feel if 100 ANBUs would go after Pein and kill him in the end? That would be the lamest story ever! And that's why they are even more useless than Naruto's KB.

I'm gonna make a wild prediction now: Your great Jounins and Chuunins will attack Pein and just get their asses handed to them like every random shinobi character who appeared until now has. Then somebody whose character actually has been introduced will arrive and only then the real fight starts.




Just because Pein defeat an old Hanzou doesn't make him stronger than the Sannins. If Pein face the sannins he will get destory, Jiraiya alone could have take him down had he figure out his secret earlier and if he had know that that Pein have six bodies.

I was saying that Lee or Neiji have absolutely no chance of winning against Pein. The fact that Pein defeated Hanzou in an older age might be true, but has nothing to do with the statement itself.
Besides, it's not like old shinobi aren't able to put up a fight (sandaime), and Jiraya seemed pretty impressed when he heard that Hanzou was defeated, so I doubt that age matters much here. But arguing about Hanzou being weakened by age will be totally based on speculation, so I'd suggest we quit that.

[taimoor2]

I just did but i still didn't see anywhere it stated that an old Hanzou would have defeat any of the Sannins. Also Hanzou was listed as strong base on what he did when he was younger. It like sarutobi situation: Sarutobi was listed, as you would describe him, the strongest Hokage base on what he did when he was younger but when he was old he couldn't even really defeat orochimaru. I'm sure Sarutobi could have defeat all of the Sannins himself at the time the Sannins were defeated by Hanzou. I don't deny Hanzou strength just like i don't deny Sarutobi strength but i don't think either of them at there old age could have defeat the strongest Sannin Jiraiya and maybe Oro(?).


Even though there is no direct way to show that Hanzou was still stronger than the three sannins when pein killed him, there is still a way.

Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/10/) Jiraya says, no matter how strong this Pein is how the heck he defeated Hanzou. Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/13/) in the top right column he says it is impossible for a single man to beat Hanzou. Now, as I read it, Jiraya is talking in present tense. It also means that Jiraya has NEVER EVER seen anyone strong enough to beat Hanzou. As third hokage was his teacher Jiraya knew his capabilities very well. So even the third cannot beat Hanzou. Also, when you say, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a single man to beat hanzou, you mean that no one even come close enough! Hanzou was so much above anyone else Jiraya ever met that Jiraya cannot even imagine he could be defeated. Now, jiraya knows how strong he himself is. He also must have fought pretty formidable opponents. Furthermore, He knows Hanzou must have aged. So he has all the information and he still cannot believe hanzou was defeated.

[Shaunlim]

Yeah, that's what I did, because I wasn't talking about actual strength in the manga. Konoha's Jounins, Chuunins, ANBU, Hyuuga Clan are faceless shinobi without any connection to anything. How would you feel if 100 ANBUs would go after Pein and kill him in the end? That would be the lamest story ever! And that's why they are even more useless than Naruto's KB.

I'm gonna make a wild prediction now: Your great Jounins and Chuunins will attack Pein and just get their asses handed to them like every random shinobi character who appeared until now has. Then somebody whose character actually has been introduced will arrive and only then the real fight starts.



While that is true, some of Konoha's Jounins, Chuunins, ANBU, Hyuuga are not faceless. And yes it would be kind of lame to see them get trashed like Naruto's KB. I personally believe that they might gang up and take out a few Pein before he retreats. Let's be reasonable, the only way this Konoha invasion is going to end is either Pein retreating or Naruto coming to safe the day. Personally, I believe it would be Pein retreating. Though, I also have a feeling that he might somehow work with Danzou and start a civil war in Konoha. Danzou have always been aiming to be a Kage afterall.
[hr]

Even though there is no direct way to show that Hanzou was still stronger than the three sannins when pein killed him, there is still a way.

Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/10/) Jiraya says, no matter how strong this Pein is how the heck he defeated Hanzou. Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/13/) in the top right column he says it is impossible for a single man to beat Hanzou. Now, as I read it, Jiraya is talking in present tense. It also means that Jiraya has NEVER EVER seen anyone strong enough to beat Hanzou. As third hokage was his teacher Jiraya knew his capabilities very well. So even the third cannot beat Hanzou. Also, when you say, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a single man to beat hanzou, you mean that no one even come close enough! Hanzou was so much above anyone else Jiraya ever met that Jiraya cannot even imagine he could be defeated. Now, jiraya knows how strong he himself is. He also must have fought pretty formidable opponents. Furthermore, He knows Hanzou must have aged. So he has all the information and he still cannot believe hanzou was defeated.

Hanzou wasn't exactly defeated by ONE person. Technically, he was defeated by 6. Go figure.

[D3v]

No he was defeated by one, just like Sasori owned an entire country himself. It was not 101 people who did that, it was a single guy using his powers. Pein's 6 bodies are a part of himself, there is even the suggestion that he might be more powerful if he was in a single body - remember Jiraiya wondering why the hell he is not using jutsus when he can use all 6 chakras?

Btw, when people start talking about Pein using 6 bodies, they conveniently forget about Jiraiya getting both ma and pa toads with him to fight Pein and still getting killed. Those two are stronger than Jiraiya as far as sage arts are concerned, in fact they may be stronger in all respects considering the power of the jutsus they used but they still couldn't stand up to Pein. What makes you think any one in Konoha can do what they three couldn't do together?

[gold349]

All the talk about Hanzou was way before Jiraiya met Pain...saw/felt Pains his potential/capability at first hand for himself. After fighting Pain he wouldn't have said the same, Pain taking out all of amagakre by himself, was just talk. He should have been aware of Hanzou capability/potential and knew the rain village defences/attack pretty well. There was a lot of amagakre nins who apposed Pain still alive, they was assaulting the rain village from time to time (rain nin said as much). Taking out the top people would give him control...that's what I think anyway, we may never get the details, who knows.

Pain and his bodies, I think 'the real one' gives them their specialities (summoning, soul sucking, ninjutsu swallowing etc) but they should be able to fight as normal shinobi, one could be good at taijutsu coupled with the his/her specialty...same with the others. Otherwise as good and ubber they are with there specialized jutsu they won't be a match for a good few shinobi that I can think off, individually they have to be real capable otherwise splitting up is suicide, that's what I'm really looking forward to.

Also seeing the underlings of Killerbee in action, IMO they are going to be good as any of the top shinobi teams in konoha. Their master is Bee, just from little we have seen/heard they are drafted in to take on big jobs/missions. Bee impressed me, though kishi spoiled his victory/plan by saying Sasuke fought him injured previously. I hope he stays out at large for a while and akatsuki doesn't re-catch him quickly, Zetsu one half laughing at the tentacle was funny. I see them hunting the hachibi in Sasuke stead, Zetsu may take his lonesome approach while Madara and Kisame pair up...not that Madara needs a partner but Kisame may need one, akatsuki has stood out far to much they may not want to take the risk/chance on their own.

[Shaunlim]

No he was defeated by one, just like Sasori owned an entire country himself. It was not 101 people who did that, it was a single guy using his powers. Pein's 6 bodies are a part of himself, there is even the suggestion that he might be more powerful if he was in a single body - remember Jiraiya wondering why the hell he is not using jutsus when he can use all 6 chakras?

Btw, when people start talking about Pein using 6 bodies, they conveniently forget about Jiraiya getting both ma and pa toads with him to fight Pein and still getting killed. Those two are stronger than Jiraiya as far as sage arts are concerned, in fact they may be stronger in all respects considering the power of the jutsus they used but they still couldn't stand up to Pein. What makes you think any one in Konoha can do what they three couldn't do together?

About that, I did mention technically. Hanzou was not defeated by one person, technically he was defeated by 6. I'm just referring to the statement that Jiraiya made. He can't be defeated by any ONE man no matter how strong. It's just basically something like LOTR where that witch-king said that no living man can kill him and then got owned by a woman. Basically what he meant as man was in general as in human can't kill him but yet a woman(who's still human) basically ended him.

I'm not saying Jiraiya was fighting alone or anything or disagreeing that Jiraiya would have lost if Ma and Pa wasn't there. It's just that no matter how strong a person is, it's impossible to take over an entire village. Even a random villager taking a knife is capable of harming Pein while he is overwhelm by Konoha forces. I know it won't happen like that but that's part of my point. If it was really so easy, Oro wouldn't have gather Sound and Sand nins to help him. This is not DBZ, where the character can simply own everyone simply because he is stronger. Shikamaru vs Hidan is a good example here.

Even if you used Sasori as an example, technically it was still 100+ guys that took over that country(which I personally believe to be a small country). Sure it was him using a jutsu but he still had the numbers of a large amount of able bodies. As an example, Sakura and Chiyo was able to take down Sasori which took down a country. But that doesn't mean that they can take down a country. I mean sure Sasori probably gave Chiyo the opening for the finishing strike but they were still able to keep up with Sasori even though they were still losing. This isn't DBZ where if you are able to take down the strongest guy in that village = you owning the entire village.

Personally I believe that Konoha is in trouble but not to the point of it being destroyed. Probably damaged here and there with some shinobis dying. But nothing too serious to the point of no return.

[Belisar]

Btw, when people start talking about Pein using 6 bodies, they conveniently forget about Jiraiya getting both ma and pa toads with him to fight Pein and still getting killed. Those two are stronger than Jiraiya as far as sage arts are concerned, in fact they may be stronger in all respects considering the power of the jutsus they used but they still couldn't stand up to Pein. What makes you think any one in Konoha can do what they three couldn't do together?
you know, a bear is far stronger than a wolf. but even a bear wouldn't fight against fifteen wolfes if they are fighting for their lives. he may be killing five or six of them but the others would bleed him out.

it's the same with pain and konoha. pain is the bear and konoha shinobi are the wolfes. surely he is able to kill a lot of them but he has no chance of winning.

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

Hanzou wasn't exactly defeated by ONE person. Technically, he was defeated by 6. Go figure.

Pein single handedly defeated the leader of amegakura no sato, which leads to me to believe he actually indeed used only one of his bodies.

[bloodrage]

No he was defeated by one, just like Sasori owned an entire country himself. It was not 101 people who did that, it was a single guy using his powers. Pein's 6 bodies are a part of himself, there is even the suggestion that he might be more powerful if he was in a single body - remember Jiraiya wondering why the hell he is not using jutsus when he can use all 6 chakras?

Btw, when people start talking about Pein using 6 bodies, they conveniently forget about Jiraiya getting both ma and pa toads with him to fight Pein and still getting killed. Those two are stronger than Jiraiya as far as sage arts are concerned, in fact they may be stronger in all respects considering the power of the jutsus they used but they still couldn't stand up to Pein. What makes you think any one in Konoha can do what they three couldn't do together?

what are you talking about man when oro summons those snakes do you say that the person was defeated by the snakes and not oro or when he summoned the 1st n the 2nd to fight the 3rd it was oro victory if jirayiah summoned ma and pa those or his sumons even though they had there own sense there still jirayiahs summons don get it twisted
pein has six bodies with the same vision with a single mind that is his jutsu yeah with one body j man owned him with three bodies he was killed if jirayiah knew he had six bodies from the start he would have been dealt with to suit the six bodies jirayiah could have gotten away if he wanted it's just that he wanted to find out peins secerct pein is overrated if he was so badass with his original body why would he use all those bodies he would get his ass killed with his original body thats why he is only preaching about god and shit but he is just like any other bad guy all arogant when their on top but when they are about to die they give up just like sasgay jirayiah would own anybody 1 vs 1 anybody

[Shaunlim]

Pein single handedly defeated the leader of amegakura no sato, which leads to me to believe he actually indeed used only one of his bodies.

Actually that just means he did it alone not necessarily 1 body. I mean it's not like a single Pein was all that strong and mighty. I mean sure Pein is strong one body wise but IMHO, it's not enough to take down Hanzou who was able to take down all 3 Sannin and didn't even look tired from it.

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

Actually that just means he did it alone not necessarily 1 body. I mean it's not like a single Pein was all that strong and mighty. I mean sure Pein is strong one body wise but IMHO, it's not enough to take down Hanzou who was able to take down all 3 Sannin and didn't even look tired from it.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/14/

pein did not nececerily use all of his 6 bodies, only the deva realm is shown in this pic, and the only reason he summoned all of his six bodies against jiraiya was to show us some extend of his abilities, also for jiraiya to find out the secret, he wasnt forced to do so, while its true that pein may have beaten jiraiya thanks to his secret, but jiraiya also had a secret no one knew about, not even himself, 3 bodies was enough to take on jiraiya at his full power.

[Hockeychaoz]

As high and mighty as Pein might seem right now, lets not forget this page here:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/16-17/

This seems to me to show some sort of weakness. Why does he need these machines in the first place?

[DanteSonOfSparda]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/14/

pein did not nececerily use all of his 6 bodies, only the deva realm is shown in this pic, and the only reason he summoned all of his six bodies against jiraiya was to show us some extend of his abilities, also for jiraiya to find out the secret, he wasnt forced to do so, while its true that pein may have beaten jiraiya thanks to his secret, but jiraiya also had a secret no one knew about, not even himself, 3 bodies was enough to take on jiraiya at his full power.

At the time this chapter was released the only body we knew of was the one of Yahiko. That's why it's the only one shown.

Also I'd say that 3 bodies weren't enough to take on Jiraya:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/08/

Quite on the opposite: If Pein would have been stupid enough to reveal all of his bodies right from the start, Jiraya would have won with this genjutsu attack and Pein would have lost even with all of his bodies.



As high and mighty as Pein might seem right now, lets not forget this page here:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/16-17/

This seems to me to show some sort of weakness. Why does he need these machines in the first place?

I have no idea what these tubes are for, but I'd say if Pein has to lay down in them frequently (maybe to save chakra or recharge his bodies like batteries) we can assume that he was smart enough to do that before he left to Konoha. If he has to use those on a regular base he would know when he needs his "fix" again, so I doubt that Pein will break down in the middle of the fight, just because he wasn't able to lay down in there.

He knew he had to travel to Konoha, fight against some people and return to wherever he has to deliver Naruto, so if he couldn't do it without resting in those tubes, he probably wouldn't be in Konoha right now, so I doubt this will prove to be a weakness in his upcoming fight.

[kheldorin]

How big a deal Jiraiya being able to defeat Pein if he knew the secret really depends on the nature of the secret. If it's something like Achilles's heel where one reasonably good archer can do what entire armies can't; then it's not such a big deal. If that's the case, if Naruto does defeat Pein then credit would also have to go to Jiraiya and the Konoha team who figured out the secret.

[Belisar]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/14/

pein did not nececerily use all of his 6 bodies, only the deva realm is shown in this pic, and the only reason he summoned all of his six bodies against jiraiya was to show us some extend of his abilities, also for jiraiya to find out the secret, he wasnt forced to do so, while its true that pein may have beaten jiraiya thanks to his secret, but jiraiya also had a secret no one knew about, not even himself, 3 bodies was enough to take on jiraiya at his full power.
because even pain's underlings don't know who pain really is or does he even exist. how would this shinobi knew that pain has six bodies? he knew nothing about him, only rumors that he defeated amagakure himself. but even that is doubtful. he may have killed hanzou with all his six bodies but an entire village? of course we don't know how much time he needed to destroy amagakure. was it right after the fight with hanzou or maybe a month after.

[yonjuushichi]

IMHO 5 bodies of pain gonna get pwnd. Only Yahiko's body will survive, thus Pain will be reduced to only one body-container. He's got Rinnegan, the eyes of soul transmigration, so if any body is damaged heavily or destroyed (I didn't say killed cause we saw it in the fight between him and Pervy, that he brought them back to life, having his 3 bodies only stabbed with sword), each of realms gets back to the original one, thus he can find a new container for the realm and place it in the body vessel. It happened with the long-haired skinny ass Pain who got into J-man's barrier, and it was replaced with a new body of a girl.
Yet, I assume the code Jiraiya left implies the existance of another body - Nagato's which can administrate all the six bodies. If Pain gets beaten in Konoha (I think he will) along with his pseudo fallen-angel Konan, there will be only Nagato possessing all the techniques each realm holds.

[Shaunlim]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/14/

pein did not nececerily use all of his 6 bodies, only the deva realm is shown in this pic, and the only reason he summoned all of his six bodies against jiraiya was to show us some extend of his abilities, also for jiraiya to find out the secret, he wasnt forced to do so, while its true that pein may have beaten jiraiya thanks to his secret, but jiraiya also had a secret no one knew about, not even himself, 3 bodies was enough to take on jiraiya at his full power.

No one actually saw the fight with Hanzou. To begin with, no one actually saw Pein. That's why Jiraiya couldn't really get any info out of that guy regarding Pein. IMHO, he definitely needed more than 1 body if he required more than 3 to take out Jiraiya in Sennin Mode. Since Hanzou basically took out all 3 sannin at once. And like others have stated, 3 bodies was definitely not enough to take down Jiraiya. Those 3 bodies died if you remember correctly. It was not until the 4th body appeared that things started to look really bad for Jiraiya.

[gold349]

Pain would use the same tactic he used against Jiraiya never mind who the person he is fighting IMO, that is if one was to intrude and be deemed dangerous. He knew just from chakra that this person was dangerous (jiraiya) he took out one body the summoning one...tried what he could then he summoned another 2 at the end resorting to all 6.

I think if he is going in for a specific mission ie take out Honzou/amagakre/kyubi jinchurick/konoha then some thought would have to been put behind it. Young Jiraiya, Tsunade and Oro were beat by Honzou, what I'm trying to say is we know how the 3 who were named sannin by him turned out and have seen how strong they had become. Even if Honzou was old when Pain fought him I'm sure that he didn't remain the same Honzou the sannin fought...he would have grown in power/strength too, Hanzou wouldn't have been any push over IMO. Pain would have needed all the tricks, even from the little the Rain nin mentioned, it was hard to just get near him (hanzou) Pain would have needed a lot IMO. I doubt it was easy, who knows how that battle was fought, if it was alone (1-6 bodies) or was his side kick Konan there too. The flash back that the nin uses to explain Pains killing of Hanzou, family and his friends...he wasn't there he hasn't seen Pain that shouldn't be used as proof he only fought with one body (which I doubt was the case).

[The Adamant Dragon]

Just wanted to clear things up ^^


Actually that just means he did it alone not necessarily 1 body. I mean it's not like a single Pein was all that strong and mighty. I mean sure Pein is strong one body wise but IMHO, it's not enough to take down Hanzou who was able to take down all 3 Sannin and didn't even look tired from it.


Sorry Shaunlim, but even if he had 20 bodies it wouldn't matter. The fact is that all these Bodies are just one person since they're all controled by a single person thus sharing the same ideals. His jutsu is just a better version of Naruto's shadow clone. We might as well say that Naruto didn't defeat Garra on his own then <--- 'Coz he used his thousand clones combo to Beat a semi-Transformed Shukaku-garra in the ground. Those bodies are part of his Jutsu/Ability granted to him via Rinnengan, the same way the Sharingan can see the opponent's moves beforehand.... Its an asset.

It's a shinobi world, and the only way you can hope to change things/Live long/Achieve your goals without someone standing in your way and kill you, is by being stronger than them, stronger than your foes/Opponents. All that to say that even if you think its not fair that he can use 6 Ubber Bodies in battle ( And Naruto is able to use a 1000, even if they're not as strong, its still a major asset), the fact is that he's just One person who came up with the best way to achieve his goals through his powers. Imho, He defeated Hanzou on his own... saying that he had 6 bodies to "help him out" is just an excuse to lower the guy's strengh. Nothing is supposed to be fair in the Shinobi-World.

Its the same way a normal person in the shinobi world would say that its not fair that these Ninjas can Shoot fire/water through they're mouth, if they were to Fight.


How big a deal Jiraiya being able to defeat Pein if he knew the secret really depends on the nature of the secret. If it's something like Achilles's heel where one reasonably good archer can do what entire armies can't; then it's not such a big deal. If that's the case, if Naruto does defeat Pein then credit would also have to go to Jiraiya and the Konoha team who figured out the secret.

That's the problem with Kishimoto in part two of this manga. . . no matter he makes Naruto do, in the end, it'll always seem like he had Major help. Don't know how Kishi will do things, but I hope he do them Right.

[bloodrage]

Pain would use the same tactic he used against Jiraiya never mind who the person he is fighting IMO, that is if one was to intrude and be deemed dangerous. He knew just from chakra that this person was dangerous (jiraiya) he took out one body the summoning one...tried what he could then he summoned another 2 at the end resorting to all 6.

I think if he is going in for a specific mission ie take out Honzou/amagakre/kyubi jinchurick/konoha then some thought would have to been put behind it. Young Jiraiya, Tsunade and Oro were beat by Honzou, what I'm trying to say is we know how the 3 who were named sannin by him turned out and have seen how strong they had become. Even if Honzou was old when Pain fought him I'm sure that he didn't remain the same Honzou the sannin fought...he would have grown in power/strength too, Hanzou wouldn't have been any push over IMO. Pain would have needed all the tricks, even from the little the Rain nin mentioned, it was hard to just get near him (hanzou) Pain would have needed a lot IMO. I doubt it was easy, who knows how that battle was fought, if it was alone (1-6 bodies) or was his side kick Konan there too. The flash back that the nin uses to explain Pains killing of Hanzou, family and his friends...he wasn't there he hasn't seen Pain that shouldn't be used as proof he only fought with one body (which I doubt was the case).

agreed but lets nt 4get the third hokage when u get old u have a limited amount of chakra thats how oro was able to win but a single pein body is easily beatable there is no way he beat somebody that took out oro j man and tusnade single handley by him self pein ain't that much of a god
[hr]

Just wanted to clear things up ^^




Sorry Shaunlim, but even if he had 20 bodies it wouldn't matter. The fact is that all these Bodies are just one person since they're all controled by a single person thus sharing the same ideals. His jutsu is just a better version of Naruto's shadow clone. We might as well say that Naruto didn't defeat Garra on his own then <--- 'Coz he used his thousand clones combo to Beat a semi-Transformed Shukaku-garra in the ground. Those bodies are part of his Jutsu/Ability granted to him via Rinnengan, the same way the Sharingan can see the opponent's moves beforehand.... Its an asset.

It's a shinobi world, and the only way you can hope to change things/Live long/Achieve your goals without someone standing in your way and kill you, is by being stronger than them, stronger than your foes/Opponents. All that to say that even if you think its not fair that he can use 6 Ubber Bodies in battle ( And Naruto is able to use a 1000, even if they're not as strong, its still a major asset), the fact is that he's just One person who came up with the best way to achieve his goals through his powers. Imho, He defeat Hanzou on his own... saying that he had 6 bodies to help "him out" is just a way to lower the guy's strengh. Nothing is supposed to be fair in the Shinobi-World.

Its the same way a normal person in the shinobi world would say that its not fair that these Ninjas can Shoot fire/water through they're mouth, if they were to Fight.



That's the problem with Kishimoto in part two of this manga. . . no matter he makes Naruto do, in the end, it'll always seem like he had Major help. Don't know how Kishi will do things, but I hope he do them Right.


i was just thinking that also but it just goes to show how unfair kishi's writing is cause i mean naruto's clones all have their own mind body and chakra if kishi used them to their full potential naruto would be owning ppl with just that he would not need rasengan 1000 clones coming up with 1000 diffrent plans to kill you it would be death but i guess thats expecting to much for kishi to hype up naruto that much

[The Adamant Dragon]

i was just thinking that also but it just goes to show how unfair kishi's writing is cause i mean naruto's clones all have their own mind body and chakra if kishi used them to their full potential naruto would be owning ppl with just that he would not need rasengan 1000 clones coming up with 1000 diffrent plans to kill you it would be death but i guess thats expecting to much for kishi to hype up naruto that much


Right now the problem with Naruto's 1000 clones army, is that his Chakra is divided a thousand times thus every clones don't have that much of chakra and life-Forces in them... But with Senjutsu arts adding to his arleady massive Chakra-pool, that will/might change soon. If he can use his shadow clones to the level Sarutobi used his against Orochimaru, then This training was more than successfull imho

I'll keep my hopes up for this training's outcome. I think that even kishi himself think its about time for Naruto to get the spotlight here :amuse. . . At least I hope so.

[Shaunlim]

Just wanted to clear things up ^^




Sorry Shaunlim, but even if he had 20 bodies it wouldn't matter. The fact is that all these Bodies are just one person since they're all controled by a single person thus sharing the same ideals. His jutsu is just a better version of Naruto's shadow clone. We might as well say that Naruto didn't defeat Garra on his own then <--- 'Coz he used his thousand clones combo to Beat a semi-Transformed Shukaku-garra in the ground. Those bodies are part of his Jutsu/Ability granted to him via Rinnengan, the same way the Sharingan can see the opponent's moves beforehand.... Its an asset.

It's a shinobi world, and the only way you can hope to change things/Live long/Achieve your goals without someone standing in your way and kill you, is by being stronger than them, stronger than your foes/Opponents. All that to say that even if you think its not fair that he can use 6 Ubber Bodies in battle ( And Naruto is able to use a 1000, even if they're not as strong, its still a major asset), the fact is that he's just One person who came up with the best way to achieve his goals through his powers. Imho, He defeated Hanzou on his own... saying that he had 6 bodies to "help him out" is just an excuse to lower the guy's strengh. Nothing is supposed to be fair in the Shinobi-World.

Its the same way a normal person in the shinobi world would say that its not fair that these Ninjas can Shoot fire/water through they're mouth, if they were to Fight.


Well, I'm not disagreeing with you there. I for one believe that it is part of his jutsu nothing else. What I meant was, Pein has more tactical advantage that's all. I for one believe that Hanzou was beaten far and square. I just wanted to pointed out that he probably used all his 6 bodies to help out.

The reason I mentioned that was because of the *technical issue*. Jiraiya said no ONE no matter how powerful could defeat Hanzou. So technically, Pein was 6 different people with different abilities although controlled by the same person. It's basically like LOTR like I have mentioned in my previous post. Well, besides that, I also have a strong feeling that Konan probably helped as well since she practically follows him everywhere he goes.


About that, I did mention technically. Hanzou was not defeated by one person, technically he was defeated by 6. I'm just referring to the statement that Jiraiya made. He can't be defeated by any ONE man no matter how strong. It's just basically something like LOTR where that witch-king said that no living man can kill him and then got owned by a woman. Basically what he meant as man was in general as in human can't kill him but yet a woman(who's still human) basically ended him.

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

We probably haven't even touched the surface of Pein's ablities. And to think we have only seen the Rinnegan activated for one thing so far which is the barrier seeing or what I think is jutsu recognising (not specific to barriers)

[Shaunlim]

Well there is also the Byakugan like ability as well. It's 360 ability that surpasses even the byakugan. It was said to even surpass the Byakugan itself.

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

At the time this chapter was released the only body we knew of was the one of Yahiko. That's why it's the only one shown.

Also I'd say that 3 bodies weren't enough to take on Jiraya:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/08/

Quite on the opposite: If Pein would have been stupid enough to reveal all of his bodies right from the start, Jiraya would have won with this genjutsu attack and Pein would have lost even with all of his bodies.

Yes but its in the same chapter that we get to see all 6 of his bodies (http://http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/16-17/)

Also 3 peins clearly overpowered jiraiya and were more than a match for him, just that jiraiya also had a secret that not even pein were a aware of it, and how many minutes or rather seconds did it take for pein to utterly murder jiraiya with the 6 bodies?? Do u realy think jiraiya woud have the chance to come up with a plan and observe peins abilites if all the six bodies were fighting from the start?? if so why didnt the frogs sing again after wittnesing the six paths of pein?? btw, jiraiya didnt even kno the frogs had a jutsu like that, nor did the frogs remember it or had it mind, they just suddenly came up with it.

IMO, jiraiya woud not have stood a chance even if pein were to attack with the six bodies from the start.

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

Well there is also the Byakugan like ability as well. It's 360 ability that surpasses even the byakugan. It was said to even surpass the Byakugan itself.


Yeah the security camera thing, yh it doesn't have a blind spot, when the bodies are used efficiently. But when I mean Rinnegan activated I mean: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/419/02/

I don't think Pain did that against Jiraiya, I think it was automatic. And Rinnegan is probably > Byakugan and the Sharingan(including MS)

[Shaunlim]

Yes but its in the same chapter that we get to see all 6 of his bodies (http://http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/16-17/)

Also 3 peins clearly overpowered jiraiya and were more than a match for him, just that jiraiya also had a secret that not even pein were a aware of it, and how many minutes or rather seconds did it take for pein to utterly murder jiraiya with the 6 bodies?? Do u realy think jiraiya woud have the chance to come up with a plan and observe peins abilites if all the six bodies were fighting from the start?? if so why didnt the frogs sing again after wittnesing the six paths of pein?? btw, jiraiya didnt even kno the frogs had a jutsu like that, nor did the frogs remember it or had it mind, they just suddenly came up with it.

IMO, jiraiya woud not have stood a chance even if pein were to attack with the six bodies from the start.

While Jiraiya would probably die if all 6 came at the beginning since he won't even be able to enter sennin mode IMO, if Jiraiya manage to enter than Pein is rather finished by the genjutsu song unless he somehow revive the body via Konan or some other means. The only reason why it wasn't used again was the same reason why it was used in hiding. It just takes too much time to sing that song in prefect harmony. Ma said something like that.
[hr]

Yeah the security camera thing, yh it doesn't have a blind spot, when the bodies are used efficiently. But when I mean Rinnegan activated I mean: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/419/02/

I don't think Pain did that against Jiraiya, I think it was automatic. And Rinnegan is probably > Byakugan and the Sharingan(including MS)

Oh, I always thought that it was something like the Byakugan and Sharingan since Nagato's normal eye and Rinnegan was different and he was shown without Rinnegan after it was first activated.

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

While Jiraiya would probably die if all 6 came at the beginning since he won't even be able to enter sennin mode IMO, if Jiraiya manage to enter than Pein is rather finished by the genjutsu song unless he somehow revive the body via Konan or some other means. The only reason why it wasn't used again was the same reason why it was used in hiding. It just takes too much time to sing that song in prefect harmony. Ma said something like that.
<hr noshade size="1">

Like i said, he basically woudnt have the chance to sing it if all 6 were out.

[Shaunlim]

Like i said, he basically woudnt have the chance to sing it if all 6 were out.
Well, basically, if Pein had summon all 6 instead of 3 after Sennin mode was out, then Pein could still be in trouble since Jiraiya would still run and hide while preparing his strategy.

[The Adamant Dragon]

Well, I'm not disagreeing with you there. I for one believe that it is part of his jutsu nothing else. What I meant was, Pein has more tactical advantage that's all. I for one believe that Hanzou was beaten far and square. I just wanted to pointed out that he probably used all his 6 bodies to help out.

The reason I mentioned that was because of the *technical issue*. Jiraiya said no ONE no matter how powerful could defeat Hanzou. So technically, Pein was 6 different people with different abilities although controlled by the same person. It's basically like LOTR like I have mentioned in my previous post. Well, besides that, I also have a strong feeling that Konan probably helped as well since she practically follows him everywhere he goes.


I got ya :amuse


You know, up to that, its mere speculations... we/you can't know what happened that whole fight. If Pain wasn't even able to defeat an Old-Hanzou on his own and had been helped by Konan, what would make him a god? Wouldn't that make Hanzou's powers even more superior and overwhelming?

Imho Hanzou was created by kishi just to show us how strong Pain, since I don't think we'll hear about Hanzou any time soon in the manga, if ever again.

By reading Kishi's early chapters, you can tell that he probably used the "No ONE" You're reffering as an hint to let us know that Pain had more than just 1 body.

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

Well, basically, if Pein had summon all 6 instead of 3 after Sennin mode was out, then Pein could still be in trouble since Jiraiya would still run and hide while preparing his strategy.

No he woudnt because he woudnt give jiraiya the chance to mess around with his summons and such, he'd just murder him like he did.

[lumpey]

No he woudnt because he woudnt give jiraiya the chance to mess around with his summons and such, he'd just murder him like he did.

pein is "god" so he wouldnt go and kill him right away (especially with 6 bodies instead of 3), even after sennin mode. he'd just play around before killing him (i mean even after sennin mode was out, pein didnt look that serious right?). that would give jiraiya enough time to "blaaah".

[nav1729]

May be I am just thinking of some crazy idea....But here it goes...

Based on this chapter.. the konaha may realise that pain connects to 6 Realms and to defeat him somebody should be(may be) trained by specialists of all those realms....currently naruto is receiving training from frogs(animal realm... I am not sure i am assuming so..)and naruto may be with all those trainings will fight pain with customized fighting style for each of the 6 bodies... we have seen pain saying how much power a human might receive(refering to madara, some thing related to itachi+sasuke), its not a threat for him... May be that means some body should be versed with all the realms.. May be that also explains why hanzou was not able to defeat him... I am just trying to out together a theory.

[~Shiki-Sama~]

Killer Bee.. hahaha.. he's got some bad Rapping, but his Swordsman ship is damn GODLIKE! haha.. i wanna know what will naruto do if he could control his Bijuu.. THE FRIKKEN 9 TAILS...

[Rosebunse]

so,um , I just got this idea as to why the hyuga were suddenly revived: They are one one most prestigious clans, one of the most noblest right? What if konocha is land that they gave the waring clans as a peace gift with the idea that they would be semi-in-charge the entire time? Now, with that idea, let's think that perhaps under this land, there is hidden some kind of bomb or some kind of jutsu thing which, when activated, would destroy konocha. Why would they do this? Well, perhaps as a last ditch effort to ore or less attain some kind of victory, or to keep secrtes secret. Just wanted to put this out there.

[DanteSonOfSparda]

Yes but its in the same chapter that we get to see all 6 of his bodies (http://http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/16-17/)


We saw six akatsuki bodies lying in the shadows: I can remember how everyone speculated about that, simply because I joined this forum after this chapter was released ;) It didn't show that Pein could use these six bodies all at once.




Also 3 peins clearly overpowered jiraiya and were more than a match for him, just that jiraiya also had a secret that not even pein were a aware of it

Jiraya summons the elder frogs and goes into sage mode, Pein summons two additional bodies, Pa figures the viewing ability of Pein out, Jiraya lures Pein into a trap and the frogs use genjutsu, Jiraya impales the three Peins

This is the fight that happened in the manga, Jiraya had the upper hand ever since he activated the sage mode. The tide turned the moment Jiraya thought of himself as victorious while the demon-realm snuck up on him from behind and took his arm


how many minutes or rather seconds did it take for pein to utterly murder jiraiya with the 6 bodies?? Do u realy think jiraiya woud have the chance to come up with a plan and observe peins abilites if all the six bodies were fighting from the start?? if so why didnt the frogs sing again after wittnesing the six paths of pein??

We don't know how long Jiraya fought with the six bodies, since we never saw that part of the fight in the manga.
However what you are ignoring is that Fuka was observing Peins technique while Jiraya was only evading them. After that they decided for a strategy together. I don't know if Jiraya could have evaded the attacks of all six bodies, stuff like that is highly notional.
The frogs didn't use their genjutsu again because it strains them a lot and Pein already knew the technique and probably wouldn't have fallen for the same trick twice



btw, jiraiya didnt even kno the frogs had a jutsu like that, nor did the frogs remember it or had it mind, they just suddenly came up with it.

Of course the frogs knew about it, otherwise they wouldn't have performed it. It's not like they invented it all of a sudden.
Besides the fact that Jiraya didn't know about it doesn't matter: The elder frogs are his summons, their accomplishments are also his credit. Naruto defeated Gaara by summoning Bunta, but it was Naruto's victory right?



IMO, jiraiya woud not have stood a chance even if pein were to attack with the six bodies from the start.

Like I said, stuff like that is highly speculative and can't be proven nor vitiated.

[THETRUTH.com]

Sorry Shaunlim, but even if he had 20 bodies it wouldn't matter. The fact is that all these Bodies are just one person since they're all controled by a single person thus sharing the same ideals. His jutsu is just a better version of Naruto's shadow clone. We might as well say that Naruto didn't defeat Garra on his own then <--- 'Coz he used his thousand clones combo to Beat a semi-Transformed Shukaku-garra in the ground. Those bodies are part of his Jutsu/Ability granted to him via Rinnengan, the same way the Sharingan can see the opponent's moves beforehand.... Its an asset.

It's a shinobi world, and the only way you can hope to change things/Live long/Achieve your goals without someone standing in your way and kill you, is by being stronger than them, stronger than your foes/Opponents. All that to say that even if you think its not fair that he can use 6 Ubber Bodies in battle ( And Naruto is able to use a 1000, even if they're not as strong, its still a major asset), the fact is that he's just One person who came up with the best way to achieve his goals through his powers. Imho, He defeated Hanzou on his own... saying that he had 6 bodies to "help him out" is just an excuse to lower the guy's strengh. Nothing is supposed to be fair in the Shinobi-World.

Its the same way a normal person in the shinobi world would say that its not fair that these Ninjas can Shoot fire/water through they're mouth, if they were to Fight.


I understand what you are saying. But Pein and Naruto techniques are more different than they are similar. KBs deplete Naruto's chakra everytime he uses them. Pein doesn't lose his "clones" they die so his chakra isn't depleted creating more. In fact he can't create more bodies instantly because he is using other shinobi's bodies to create the technique. So the cost to Pein is not the same. The only real similarity between the two techniques is the shared ideal. Pein is one opponent but he has 6 bodies that can die individually. If Naruto dies he is dead, clones disappear with his life. Any one or five Pein bodies could die and he would still be alive. So he is definitely one opponent but he also definitely has more than one body that must be killed to kill Pein.

I don't think anyone can argue that the bodies are an asset but that also doesn't mean he is fighting 1-on-1. The fact is with his ability he doesn't have to fight 1-on-1, so why should he. He usually has the advantage of overwhelming force. It is ironic because right now facing Konoha he does not have that advantage.

[TheChosenOne]

This is the fight that happened in the manga, Jiraya had the upper hand ever since he activated the sage mode. The tide turned the moment Jiraya thought of himself as victorious while the demon-realm snuck up on him from behind and took his arm.

The only time Jiraiya ever had the upper hand against Pain was when it was strictly 1on1. He had the advantage when he fought Animal Realm alone during Hermit Mode, but quickly lost it once Pain summoned Human and Ghost realm. After it was 3vs1, Pain countered everything Jiraiya threw at him, like the deep fryer jutsu (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/09/), Rasengan (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/09/), taijutsu (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/15/),and the needle barrage (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/17/). Jiraiya himself states that he would die (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/01/) if he fought 3 of them for much longer. He finally got the upper hand once again when he used Frog Song to revert the fight back into 1on1 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/17/), but lost it when all 6 bodies appeared. :)

[HPTR Fangirl]

May be I am just thinking of some crazy idea....But here it goes...

Based on this chapter.. the konaha may realise that pain connects to 6 Realms and to defeat him somebody should be(may be) trained by specialists of all those realms....currently naruto is receiving training from frogs(animal realm... I am not sure i am assuming so..)and naruto may be with all those trainings will fight pain with customized fighting style for each of the 6 bodies... we have seen pain saying how much power a human might receive(refering to madara, some thing related to itachi+sasuke), its not a threat for him... May be that means some body should be versed with all the realms.. May be that also explains why hanzou was not able to defeat him... I am just trying to out together a theory.

Cool theory, but I doubt Konoha nins can "realize that Pain connects to 6 Realms" simply because they haven't yet figured out what Jiraiya's code means as of yet. Not to mention when they tried to mind read the autopsized dead Pain they haven't got any information out due to the powerful genjutsu barrier. And right now since Konoha is under attack by Pain, it will take them a long time to realize that Pain different abilities connects to different realms. Secondly, I also doubt that Narutoverse has information or even specialist that are expert in different realm abilities. Such information are known only to those who practice religious cerimonies and mikos (from the mangas that I've read in the past like Inuyasha) Mikos have connections to different realms since it's their specialty as well as falls in their line of work, but in Naruto verse we aren't shown any mikos or priestess or extremely well version religious personnels who has information on the 6 realms. So I'm doubtful of this theory.:oh

If Rinnegan is shown to have Byakugan-esque like ability like as shown through the barriers, does it mean it Sharingan copy-cat abilities.

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

This is the fight that happened in the manga, Jiraya had the upper hand ever since he activated the sage mode. The tide turned the moment Jiraya thought of himself as victorious while the demon-realm snuck up on him from behind and took his arm.



About that, don't you guys think that this body is insanely strong, we know Jiraiya was in Hermit mode, but the demon realm body was able to take off his arm. Sage mode is suppose to make your defenses stronger and we saw Naruto wasn't really hurt when he landed on those spiky rocks. Further evidence comes this chapter where we see the body throwing the Animal realm quite high in the sky. :amuse

[Fallen.]

yea but each realm has their specific weaknesses.
To understand the concept of Samsara it is important to know about the six realms. Samsara is what Rinnegan literally means. Six realms? Like six ways of Pein? This is what wikipedia had to say about the six realms:
“The Six realms (Tibetan: rigs drug gi skye gnas), are six divisions of the possible states of rebirth in traditional Buddhist cosmology. They represent all the possibilities, good and bad, of life in saṃsāra. They include rebirth as a deva, an asura, a human being, an animal, a hungry ghost, or a being in Naraka (hell) according to the individual’s karma.
The Six realms are also called the “six paths of rebirth”, the “six paths of suffering”, the “six planes”, and the “six lower realms”
Deva realm
Main article: Deva (Buddhism)
The Deva realm is the realm of bliss and pride.
The Deva realm is sometimes also referred to as the gods’ realm, because its inhabitants are so powerful that, compared to humans, they resemble the gods of Greek or Roman mythology. However, while the Devas may be referred to as gods, they are not immortal, omniscient, nor omnipotent, and act neither as creators nor judges at death, so they are notably distinct from the monotheistic concept of God.
Asura realm (Demon realm)
Main article: Asura (Buddhism)
The Asura realm is the realm of the demigods. They are here because of actions based on jealousy, struggle, combat or rationalization of the world. They may be here because in human form they had good intentions but committed bad actions such as harming others. The Asuras are said to experience a much more pleasurable life than humans, but they are plagued by envy for the devas, whom they can see just as humans can perceive animals.
The Asura realm is also sometimes referred to as the Ashura realm, Titan realm’, Jealous God realm, Demigod realm, or Anti-God realm. Asura is also sometimes translated as “demon,” “fighting demon,” “those without wine,” or “frightened ghost,” which can cause confusion because beings of the hell realm are also sometimes referred to as demons.
Human realm
Main article: Human beings in Buddhism
The Human realm (also known as the Manuṣya realm) is based on passion, desire, and doubt.
Buddhists see this realm as the one in which homo sapiens live. It is described as one of the more conducive realms to achieving enlightenment because of the possibilities that it offers.
Animal realm
Main article: Animals in Buddhism
The Animal realm (also known as the Tiryag-yoni realm) is based on stupidity and prejudice.
Buddhists believe that this realm is home to the nonhuman animals on Earth, though humans can see the animals in the same way that the Asura can see the Devas.
Hungry Ghost realm
Main article: Preta
The Hungry Ghost realm (also known as the Preta realm) is based on possessiveness and desire.
The sentient beings in this realm are known as “hungry ghosts” because of their inability to enjoy food or drink. In Tibetan versions of the Bhavacakra they are drawn with narrow necks to represent that condition.
Naraka realm (Hell realm)
Main article: Naraka (Buddhism)
The Naraka realm, or “hell realm” is based on hatred.
The Buddhist view of the Naraka realm differs significantly from that of most monotheistic religions in that those being punished in this realm are not trapped permanently. Rather, they remain there until their negative karma is used up, at which point they are reborn into another realm.”
So maybe each of Pein’s bodies have these personalities or are used for these purposes. Sorry for it being so long.

[Baron Hugenstein]

About that, don't you guys think that this body is insanely strong, we know Jiraiya was in Hermit mode, but the demon realm body was able to take off his arm. Sage mode is suppose to make your defenses stronger and we saw Naruto wasn't really hurt when he landed on those spiky rocks. Further evidence comes this chapter where we see the body throwing the Animal realm quite high in the sky. :amuse

The 6-pains have to be a complete team, to counter any possible enemy or a group of enemies.
The demon realm is, most likely, the heavy support member part of the team; the animal realm is scout who can move the team into far distances.
Human realm is the interrogator and the disposer of unwanted personal.
Ghost realm is the defensive member who is similar to the rook in Chess, the one who takes the powerful hits.
I have no idea what hell realm does or the God realm does.:blink

Although this might mean that the controller body(the 7th body who controls from behind) might be very weak and cannot fight stronger nins, otherwise why need 6 pain who seem not natural(from the piercings and the fact that there are 6 bodies in the first place.)

[xXOffspringXx]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/14/

pein did not nececerily use all of his 6 bodies, only the deva realm is shown in this pic, and the only reason he summoned all of his six bodies against jiraiya was to show us some extend of his abilities, also for jiraiya to find out the secret, he wasnt forced to do so, while its true that pein may have beaten jiraiya thanks to his secret, but jiraiya also had a secret no one knew about, not even himself, 3 bodies was enough to take on jiraiya at his full power.

can you please get off peins c*ck? i mean for the love of god when ever someone as much as says oh peins no the strongest u have to reply telling them how he is the strongest... its getting annoying

[Fallen.]

Although this might mean that the controller body(the 7th body who controls from behind) might be very weak and cannot fight stronger nins, otherwise why need 6 pain who seem not natural(from the piercings and the fact that there are 6 bodies in the first place.)


Controlling 6 bodies takes it's toll , the controller must be the most powerful actually.
[hr]

can you please get off peins c*ck? i mean for the love of god when ever someone as much as says oh peins no the strongest u have to reply telling them how he is the strongest... its getting annoying

pein's not that strong lol each konoha shinobi can take care of them if it's 1 on 1 which it will be now so the bodies are most likely to die and so will konan,then we'll get to see the real pein go against naruto(hopefully ) lol

[Baron Hugenstein]

Controlling 6 bodies takes it's toll , the controller must be the most powerful actually.
<hr noshade size="1">


pein's not that strong lol each konoha shinobi can take care of them if it's 1 on 1 which it will be now so the bodies are most likely to die and so will konan,then we'll get to see the real pein go against naruto(hopefully ) lol

But why use 6 bodies in the first place?
Fear of losing?, there are very strong nins in the world,(which included Jiraiya and Hanzou) And there is still Madara(doesn't know how to die) And Kisame.

Or possibly the 7th body is already damaged beyond repair???

[DanteSonOfSparda]

The only time Jiraiya ever had the upper hand against Pain was when it was strictly 1on1. He had the advantage when he fought Animal Realm alone during Hermit Mode, but quickly lost it once Pain summoned Human and Ghost realm. After it was 3vs1, Pain countered everything Jiraiya threw at him, like the deep fryer jutsu (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/09/), Rasengan (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/09/), taijutsu (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/15/),and the needle barrage (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/17/). Jiraiya himself states that he would die (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/01/) if he fought 3 of them for much longer. He finally got the upper hand once again when he used Frog Song to revert the fight back into 1on1 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/17/), but lost it when all 6 bodies appeared. :)

While it's true that he said he would die if he kept the fight up much longer, he said that at a time where he wasn't aware of the frogs genjutsu power.
Pein absorbed his Rasengan and his deep fryer meaning he countered it. Jiraya was still in offense while it was only 3 on 1 and although his ninjutsu proved worthless he still managed to "kill" the three bodies. imo he (and the frogs) had the upper hand during the 3 vs 1 situation.
But I have to add that Team Jiraya went all out while ein still had something up his sleeve ;)

[gold349]

About that, don't you guys think that this body is insanely strong, we know Jiraiya was in Hermit mode, but the demon realm body was able to take off his arm. Sage mode is suppose to make your defenses stronger and we saw Naruto wasn't really hurt when he landed on those spiky rocks. Further evidence comes this chapter where we see the body throwing the Animal realm quite high in the sky. :amuse

agreed but Pain doesn't shock me at all, its more or less like many thought he would be like. IMO Pain has to have raw power, also there may be so many jutsu/techniques he may have created using rinnagan (having rinnagan should make that a given). It was introduced as a tool which helped create ninjutsu world, also something that can destroy it too. I'm only suggesting it as Kakuza was able to harden his body, Madara blocked suigetsu sword bare hand/arm. Things such as abnormal strength and punching/cutting/ripping with just your bare hand better than any tool/sword/club wouldn't surprise me with Pain. I expect the leader of akatuksi who had these mad/bad/crazy S level shinobi under him to have most if not all the techniques they may have shown and more.

[TheChosenOne]

While it's true that he said he would die if he kept the fight up much longer, he said that at a time where he wasn't aware of the frogs genjutsu power.

Doesn't change the fact that he was at a disadvantage against Pain. Genjutsu wasn't the reason for Jiraiya's short victory, it was Pain's obliviousness to Jiraiya's genjutsu ability that allowed Jiraiya to have success. :)


Pein absorbed his Rasengan and his deep fryer meaning he countered it. Jiraya was still in offense while it was only 3 on 1 and although his ninjutsu proved worthless he still managed to "kill" the three bodies.Like I said, he was able to kill them cuz of the genjutsu (mainly due to Pain's unawareness) which gave him the upperhand. He never held a propitious position from the beginning of the summonings till using genjutsu. :)


imo he (and the frogs) had the upper hand during the 3 vs 1 situation.If he had the upper hand in the 3vs1 situation then there would be no point in him stating "finally it's 1on1 again", him stating that means he favors a 1on1 fight since that gives him an advantage. :)


But I have to add that Team Jiraya went all out while ein still had something up his sleeve ;)The same can be said about Pain. :)

[DanteSonOfSparda]

The same can be said about Pain. :)

Ok, you might have misunderstood me, since the "P" in Pein was missing in my post, but I said that Jiraya used all his attacks to beat the three bodies and Pein still had something up his sleeve.

I can't see how you can say the same about Pein :s


But back on the fight, I'll start at the time Pein summons 2 additional bodies:

Long hair Pein charges at Jiraya and gets wasted, Jiraya uses deep fryer but Pein negates it, Jiraya uses Ultimate Rasengan but Pein counters it, Fuka figures out Peins "one eye sees all" technique while Jiraya buys him some time by retreating into the sewers, Jiraya lures the three bodies into a genjutsu trap and impales them on blades

Pein didn't land one hit on Jiraya while they were fighting 3 on 1. The only time he was shining was when the fat body negated the ninjutsu which is based on one single ability. That's why I said Jiraya dominated that phase

Hell, I'm not saying that he's weak or that Jiraya is stronger than him. I'm thinking that he can push around almost any shinobi. Jiraya showed everything he had after the genjutsu (at least everything that would be effective against Pein). Because of that Pein could take control of the fight easily after his bodies got reactivated, meaning he is the fair and square winner of the fight. But still I'd say we have to give Jiraya credit for his fight ;)

[gold349]

Doesn't change the fact that he was at a disadvantage against Pain. Genjutsu wasn't the reason for Jiraiya's short victory, it was Pain's obliviousness to Jiraiya's genjutsu that allowed Jiraiya to have success. :)

Jiraya was standing his ground against Pain, he handled everything Pain threw at him. His short victory, agreed was due to Pain's unawareness to Jiraiya being able to cast genjutsu but the same could be said about Pain victory, he only won due to his secret and Jiraiya's unawareness to Pain having 6 bodies.


Like I said, he was able to kill them cuz of the genjutsu (mainly due to Pain's unawareness) which gave him the upperhand. He never held a propitious position from the beginning of the summonings till using genjutsu. :)


He was struggling only when the 3 bodies were fighting together but came up with a plan in that hard situation and had a short lived victory. Pain was handed victory due to his secret and acknowledged as much at the end. Pain complements Jiraiya, that he could have won if he had known his secret...it wasn't just one sided it was close.


If he had the upper hand in the 3vs1 situation then there would be no point in him stating "finally it's 1on1 again", him stating that means he favors a 1on1 fight since that gives him an advantage. :)

The same can be said about Pain. :)

He had come up with a plan based on 1 on 3, he won that fight (1 on 3). I'm not saying he could have beat Pain 1 on 6 but Pain won 6 on 1 by way of surprise similar to Jiraiya won 1 on 3 by surprise. Jiraiya did say he could die in hermit mode but Pain admitted as much to, he could have died in what ever mode he proclaims himself...he complemented his master on his fight.

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

Doesn't change the fact that he was at a disadvantage against Pain. Genjutsu wasn't the reason for Jiraiya's short victory, it was Pain's obliviousness to Jiraiya's genjutsu that allowed Jiraiya to have success. :)




Still that's the same as saying the genjutsu was the reason for Jiraiya's short victory. It was the way Jiraiya and the toads used the genjutsu with their tactics and the fact it was a sound genjutsu rather then a normal genjutsu. :) Without genjutsu Jiraiya couldn't have killed the bodies, the fact that Pain was oblivious to Jiraiya's genjutsu was because of the type of genjutsu it was and the way Jiraiya and co implemented it.

[TheChosenOne]

Ok, you might have misunderstood me, since the "P" in Pein was missing in my post, but I said that Jiraya used all his attacks to beat the three bodies and Pein still had something up his sleeve.

Yes, I thought you meant to say that Jiraiya went all out, and still had something up his sleeve. :amuse


Pein didn't land one hit on Jiraya. The only time he was shining was when the fat body negated the ninjutsu which is based on one single ability.Even without going on the offensive, Pain's strength was enough for Jiraiya to question his survival. Now that we know that each body signifies each realm, we can speculate what was Pain's plan. He used the Ghost realm to disarm Jiraiya's ninjutsu, and Human realm to interrogate him and take his soul. Which means he didn't use them for an offensive battle, but rather a strong defense to tire out Jiraiya. Had Pain wanted to go offensive, he would have used summons consisting of Asura realm in tandem with Ghost Realm, since that gives a defensive and an offensive summons. :)


But still I'd say we have to give Jiraya credit for his fight ;)I never said he shouldn't receive credit, he receives credit for pushing Pain far enough that he had to use all 6 bodies, he receives credit for discovering his true identity and most of all for Pain to admit that he would've lost. ;)

[TheOneElectric]

Who the hell said Hanzou was so much older than the Sanin when he battled them?
?
?

For all we know he was only a few years older than Jiraiya when he fought with Pein, so the old age reference is null.

6bodies is a tech that Pein is using. It isn't cheating. Quit being but hurt shonen fans who have never seen such a badass villain before. Heck, Pein isn't even a villain. Deep down his motives are to make the world a peaceful place where war is a thing of an ass backwards past. Seriously. His methods are unquestionabally wrong. He is like Naruto. They both have the same goals in the end. They only have different paths they think they must travel to get there.

IDC if you guys call plot-no-jutsu when Konoha gets ravaged. It will be out there and we won't have to argue about it anymore. I would like to thank the person who brought up the point about the two toads on Jiraiya's shoulders being masters at senjutsu and still not being able to take on 3 let alone 6 Peins. (They had to use a clutch technique, and Pein was playing cat and mouse with his sensei)

The abilities of the 6 bodies have been unseen IMO. There are a lot of things that each body can do. If the Animal Realm can summon People, what is stopping it from summoning weapons, barriers, or other non living things. The demon realm is stronger than Tsunade and it can fire it's fists and fire missles. Imagine if it had a system of machine gun like needles plus other fancy gadgets in it's body. Each body isn't merely limited to what is apparent by the name or what you have seen it do. It's limited in it's category of attack, but in each category of ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijustsu there are thousands of techniques and abilities.

Nagato will be a problem if he isn't on life support somewhere. If he is alive and healthy he will be deadly. By deadly I mean almost unstoppable. You cannot possibly hope to defeat the heir to the creator of shinobi. You cannot. You cannot. Not without it being a group effort....a really big group. I mean like all the nations plus all the Bijuus fireing one massive Jutsu.:D:D:D I kid I kid but:D it will be beyond difficult but not impossible. I think after Pein is defeated and Nagato tussles with Naruto a little and sees the seeds of the future that Naruto has planted Nagato will back of and stay in the shadows until he thinks his brand of saviour is needed.

[TheChosenOne]

Still that's the same as saying the genjutsu was the reason for Jiraiya's short victory.

No, it's the same as saying that genjutsu gave Jiraiya short victory while Pain's being oblivious to it made the genjutsu a success. :)


Without genjutsu Jiraiya couldn't have killed the bodies, the fact that Pain was oblivious to Jiraiya's genjutsu was because of the type of genjutsu it was and the way Jiraiya and co implemented it.The type of genjutsu had nothing to do with Pain falling for it, it was that he was unaware of Jiraiya's genjutsu level. From Pain's standpoint, the only thing that Jiraiya could do is ninjutsu and taijutsu, genjutsu was never a factor for Pain. Pa states (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/07/) that Pain's obliviousness to Jiraiya's genjutsu arsenal could be a huge advantage. Pain himself states (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/05/) that he had no idea that Jiraiya could use such incredible genjutsu. :)


Jiraya was standing his ground against Pain, he handled everything Pain threw at him.

He stood his ground solely against Animal realm, but once the other two realms joined, All of Jiraiya's attacks failed, genjutsu being the sole exception. :)


His short victory, agreed was due to Pain's unawareness to Jiraiya being able to cast genjutsu but the same could be said about Pain victory, he only won due to his secret and Jiraiya's unawareness to Pain having 6 bodies.True, but my point was that Jiraiya never had the upper hand when he fought Pain. He only gained the upper hand when he used genjutsu, where as Pain had the upper hand since the fight began. :)

[C4animax]

About hanzou, was it mentionned that pain was nagato at the moment? I mean people are lowering jiraya's strengh because he had so much admiration (and obviously because he lost to him) to a guy that he couldn't beat back then, but i suppose he didn't know the guy had the rinnengan and was none other than his pupil nagato, who's got the strongest power we've seen so far.
So judjing jiraya on that issn't fair.


About jiraya vs pain, it's not fair to count pa and ma as "bodies", ok they have few strong move/jutsu but clearly are less usefull than if it was a platoon of 3 ninjas with their own abilitie, because at this time (if they are strong enough) they can saparate pain from each other and the result of the fight would be different.

Jiraya is the one that came up with a plan, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/09/ so he could be one on one with pain...and i believe that if he faced all 6 bodies he'd found a way to beat them.

[dmizzle]

pain is not dat gr8.....is weakness clearly lies in hiz power being divided in2 six bodyz and him gettin a replacement for animal realm clearly showed that....pain never lost a fight becauze he has 6 bodyz dat most ppl he fights doesnt kno about....1nce u find out wat all bodyz do den seperating dem, fightin pain will b dat much easier....madaras the "real leader" of akatsuki 4 a reason, he knoz diz and can beat pain datz y pain takes orders

[warbandit66]

God's are supposed to answer prayers, maybe Pain's answering Madara's

[gold349]

Who the hell said Hanzou was so much older than the Sanin when he battled them?
?
?

For all we know he was only a few years older than Jiraiya when he fought with Pein, so the old age reference is null.

6bodies is a tech that Pein is using. It isn't cheating. Quit being but hurt shonen fans who have never seen such a badass villain before. Heck, Pein isn't even a villain. Deep down his motives are to make the world a peaceful place where war is a thing of an ass backwards past. Seriously. His methods are unquestionabally wrong. He is like Naruto. They both have the same goals in the end. They only have different paths they think they must travel to get there.

IDC if you guys call plot-no-jutsu when Konoha gets ravaged. It will be out there and we won't have to argue about it anymore. I would like to thank the person who brought up the point about the two toads on Jiraiya's shoulders being masters at senjutsu and still not being able to take on 3 let alone 6 Peins. (They had to use a clutch technique, and Pein was playing cat and mouse with his sensei)

The abilities of the 6 bodies have been unseen IMO. There are a lot of things that each body can do. If the Animal Realm can summon People, what is stopping it from summoning weapons, barriers, or other non living things. The demon realm is stronger than Tsunade and it can fire it's fists and fire missles. Imagine if it had a system of machine gun like needles plus other fancy gadgets in it's body. Each body isn't merely limited to what is apparent by the name or what you have seen it do. It's limited in it's category of attack, but in each category of ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijustsu there are thousands of techniques and abilities.

Nagato will be a problem if he isn't on life support somewhere. If he is alive and healthy he will be deadly. By deadly I mean almost unstoppable. You cannot possibly hope to defeat the heir to the creator of shinobi. You cannot. You cannot. Not without it being a group effort....a really big group. I mean like all the nations plus all the Bijuus fireing one massive Jutsu.:D:D:D I kid I kid but:D it will be beyond difficult but not impossible. I think after Pein is defeated and Nagato tussles with Naruto a little and sees the seeds of the future that Naruto has planted Nagato will back of and stay in the shadows until he thinks his brand of saviour is needed.

woh, woh itachi08 you seem more fired up than Pain, loved the post:D

Anyway I understood it, when Jiraiya, Tsunade and Oro fought Hanzou they was like konoha jounins and he was the leader of amagakre, who knows how old he was?. Around the same time..after the fight and they were given sannin status on their way home they bumped into the young Konan, Yahiko and Nagato. The age difference is clear between them, that is why I credit Jiraiya for his performance against Pain. OK it doesn't say a lot about the difference between Hanzou and the 3 konoha shinobi but there had/has to be one between Pain and Hanzou, like you say it may have been not that great but its still big IMO. Time line is vague but there are many flashbacks that give account of Oro story as to why he left the village, this fight with Hanzou and gaining sannin status must have been in their early years way before all the ruckus before Oro fled the village.

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

No, it's the same as saying that genjutsu gave Jiraiya short victory while Pain's being oblivious to it made the genjutsu a success. :)

The type of genjutsu had nothing to do with Pain falling for it, it was that he was unaware of Jiraiya's genjutsu level. From Pain's standpoint, the only thing that Jiraiya could do is ninjutsu and taijutsu, genjutsu was never a factor for Pain. Pa states (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/07/) that Pain's obliviousness to Jiraiya's genjutsu arsenal could be a huge advantage. Pain himself states (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/05/) that he had no idea that Jiraiya could use such incredible genjutsu. :)



Pain not being aware of the genjutsu might have an a huge advantage, in the sense that Pain didn't know what was coming towards him, but him knowing that Jiraiya could throw in a genjutsu or not doesn't affect the point that Pain could do nothing against the genjutsu itself.

[TheChosenOne]

Pain not being aware of the genjutsu might have an a huge advantage, in the sense that Pain didn't know what was coming towards him, but him knowing that Jiraiya could throw in a genjutsu or not doesn't affect the point that Pain could do nothing against the genjutsu itself.

How do you reach that conclusion, Pain could have done something. When pain first found out that Jiraiya was the intruder, he knew that Jiraiya is strong in ninjutsu and taijutsu and weak in genjutsu. During the course of the fight, he summoned two realms that can counter both, Ghost for nin and Human for tai. Had Pain known that Jiraiya can use genjutsu at incredible levels, it's likely that he would have had counters prepared, considering his exceptional counters for nin and tai. :)

[kkck]

Technicaly jiraiya didnt use the genjutsu, ma and pa made it. Jiraiya simply created a diversion that gave ma and pa the time to tune up and use the technique.
jiraiya does deserve credit on being able to summon those two powerfull little fuckers though.

[TheOneElectric]

I just realized that the lolPeinfellforgenjutsu was a trap. Ok, I don't think the bodies got up by themselves and joined the fight. (even if they did it coincides with this highly possible theory) When Pein went into the pipes (playing cat and mouse with Jiraiya) he had an idea that Jiraiya would come up with something simply epic so he either used animal realm to summon the three others and keep them at a distance or he had them wake up and stay at a distance. Those three bodies imo were used as a trap, sort of like playing possum. He trapped Jiraiya instead of Jiraiya trapiing him. Those three bodies (animal, human, and hungry ghosts realms) were bait that came to Jiraiya.

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

How do you reach that conclusion, Pain could have done something. When pain first found out that it was Jiraiya was the intruder, he knew that Jiraiya is strong in ninjutsu and taijutsu and weak in genjutsu. During the course of the fight, he summoned two realms that can counter both, Ghost for nin and Human for tai. Had Pain known that Jiraiya can use genjutsu at incredible levels, it's likely that he would have had counters prepared, considering his exceptional counters for nin and tai. :)

Well Pain even guessed what was coming to him might have been genjutsu, but still didn't do any to counter it. And the fact that Pain says that he never knew Jiraiya could use such an incredible genjutsu, suggests Pain, certainly those Pain bodies couldn't do anything to counter it. Maybe another Pain body could have countered it, but since the bodies share the same thoughts then most likely another body would have been fooled to believing that Jiraiya couldn't use genjutsu and the genjutsu used doesn't look like a genjutsu, it looks more like a ninjutsu, this is one of the reason's why it's so powerful.

[Franckie]

pein's not that strong lol each konoha shinobi can take care of them if it's 1 on 1 which it will be now so the bodies are most likely to die and so will konan,then we'll get to see the real pein go against naruto(hopefully ) lol

Each body has shown to be individually powerful. Summoning Pein alone had no problems dealing with Jiraiya until Hermit Mode's activation.


But why use 6 bodies in the first place?
Fear of losing?, there are very strong nins in the world,(which included Jiraiya and Hanzou) And there is still Madara(doesn't know how to die) And Kisame.

Or possibly the 7th body is already damaged beyond repair???

The reason Pein split his skills across multiple bodies is because it comes with great benefits. Here's a few benefits which quickly come to mind:

You can use 6 different skills at the same time You can't be killed unless all the bodies are simultaneously destroyed You can bypass overpowered frog songs You can wreck Konoha and do recon at the same time

[segua]

This isn't Dragon Ball Z folks.

All warfare is based on deception.

Pein certainly won the fight and clearly Jiraiya died. That's fact. But this is also fact that Pein lost one body and Jiraiya figured out Pein's little secret. So in the end, this will come back to bite Pein in the ass later.

@dmizzle: I don't think you clearly understand how strong Pein is. Even if Pein's secret was discovered, it won't be easy defeating him. Recall Neji's fight with Kidoumaru in the forest. Kidoumaru figured out Neji's blind spot didn't he, but Neji knew about Byakyuugan's blind spot too. Even then Neji barely won. So even if Pein's little secret was uncovered, it still won't be a cakewalk. Whoever wins against Pein, it's going to be a very close fight.
[hr]


You can use 6 different skills at the same time You can't be killed unless all the bodies are simultaneously destroyed You can bypass overpowered frog songs You can wreck Konoha and do recon at the same time

The manga never specified how Pein could be defeated. What if a ninja actually did manage to kill all six bodies but the next moment, all the six bodies came back to life?

For that matter , no one, from what it seems, could escape the toad song; not even Pein could. So if all six bodies fell into the trap, there's no way those six bodies are going to free themselves.

The only thing you list that actually is factual is the last point. That's because it's a 6 man team that could divide the team into two smaller teams.

[TheChosenOne]

Well Pain even guessed what was coming to him might have been genjutsu, but still didn't do any to counter it.

At that point, the genjutsu was being casted incessantly and we can see Pain slowly feeling the effects (1 (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-378/page011.html) and 2 (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-378/page012.html)) until the genjutsu finally paralyzed (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-379/page003.html)Pain. The genjutsu affects (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-379/page004.html) the nerves and the mind by paralyzing them, so as soon as Jiraiya started casting frog song, Pain's nerves and mind were slowly being paralyzed. :)


And the fact that Pain says that he never knew Jiraiya could use such an incredible genjutsu, suggests Pain, certainly those Pain bodies couldn't do anything to counter it.If you mean Human and Ghost realm, then yes, but if the other bodies could do something against Genjutsu is speculation. It's possible that it could, considering there is already two realms that can counter nin and tai (tai can be countered by likely all the bodies since their vision are connected). When Pain makes the statement about Jiraiya's genjutsu, he is already completely under it's effects, so there wasn't anything he could do to counter. :)


...genjutsu used doesn't look like a genjutsu that's the point, it looks more like a ninjutsu, this is one of the reason's why it's so powerful.I don't understand you're point, do you meant to say that frog songs looks like ninjutsu ? Whether it does or not, Pain was able to identify it as genjutsu. :)

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

I don't understand you're point, do you meant to say that frog songs looks like ninjutsu ? Whether it does or not, Pain was able to identify it as genjutsu. :)

Jiraiya explained to Pain that it was genjutsu so Pain didn't really identify that it was genjutsu. When you see some things flying towards you, you're gonna think it's ninjutsu. Though he did speculate it was ninjutsu. :)
[hr]

At that point, the genjutsu was being casted incessantly and we can see pain slowly feeling the effects (1 (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-378/page011.html) and 2 (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-378/page012.html)) until the genjutsu finally paralyzed (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-379/page003.html)Pain. The genjutsu affects (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-379/page004.html) the nerves and the mind by paralyzing them, so as soon as Jiraiya started casting frog song, Pain's nerves and mind were slowly being paralyzed. :)

If you mean Human and Ghost realm, then yes, but if the other bodies could do something against Genjutsu is speculation. It's possible that it could, considering there is already two realms that can counter nin and tai (tai can be countered by likely all the bodies since their vision are connected). When Pain makes the statement about Jiraiya's genjutsu, he is already completely under it's effects, so there wasn't anything he could do to counter. :)

I don't understand you're point, do you meant to say that frog songs looks like ninjutsu ? Whether it does or not, Pain was able to identify it as genjutsu. :)

Since the genjutsu is sound then surely after the the toads sing, the genjutsu effects start to take place meaning that a body which might be able to deal with genjutsu will already be too late and wouldn't have enough time to negate the genjutsu?

[TheChosenOne]

Jiraiya explained to Pain that it was genjutsu so Pain didn't really identify that it was genjutsu. When you see some things flying towards you, you're gonna think it's ninjutsu. Though he did speculate it was ninjutsu. :)

Pain identified it as genjutsu when he first heard (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-378/page011.html) the frog song. As soon as he feels the effects he correctly distinguishes it as genjutsu. :)

[Franckie]

The manga never specified how Pein could be defeated. What if a ninja actually did manage to kill all six bodies but the next moment, all the six bodies came back to life?

Killing all the bodies = Killing Pein. The bodies aren't capable of self-revival. Otherwise Fuuma Pein would have revived automatically after it was killed in Jiraiya's barrier.


For that matter , no one, from what it seems, could escape the toad song; not even Pein could. So if all six bodies fell into the trap, there's no way those six bodies are going to free themselves.

Jiraiya needs to separate the bodies in order to bind them with the Frog Song. Jiraiya had a pretty hard time with just 3 bodies alone, and it only worked so well because Jiraiya was able to turn prior knowledge Pein had on Jiraiya from an asset to a handicap. Unless you give Jiraiya major help and/or preptime, it's pretty unlikely he can use the Frog Song against all six bodies at the same time.


The only thing you list that actually is factual is the last point. That's because it's a 6 man team that could divide the team into two smaller teams.
I also mentioned Pein can utilize 6 different jutsu at the same time.

[bean]

Jiraiya explained to Pain that it was genjutsu so Pain didn't really identify that it was genjutsu. When you see some things flying towards you, you're gonna think it's ninjutsu. Though he did speculate it was ninjutsu. :)



Since the genjutsu is sound then surely after the the toads sing, the genjutsu effects start to take place meaning that a body which might be able to deal with genjutsu will already be too late and wouldn't have enough time to negate the genjutsu?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/11/

jiraiya didn't have to tell him anything

[TheChosenOne]

Since the genjutsu is sound then surely after the the toads sing, the genjutsu effects start to take place meaning that a body which might be able to deal with genjutsu will already be too late and wouldn't have enough time to negate the genjutsu?

Could be or maybe the body can negate genjutsu completely, that's all speculation at this point. What's fact is that Animal, Human and Ghost realm were completely susceptible to genjutsu because Pain was oblivious to Jiraiya's genjutsu level and thus didn't make preperations. :)

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/11/

jiraiya didn't have to tell him anything

That was speculating so he wasn't 100% sure, here's Jiraiya confirming its genjutsu:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/04/

[TheChosenOne]

That was speculating so he wasn't 100% sure, here's Jiraiya confirming its genjutsu:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/04/

Whether he was entirely sure or not, Pain was still able to severalize it as a genjutsu. :)

[bean]

That was speculating so he wasn't 100% sure, here's Jiraiya confirming its genjutsu:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/04/
still, he never considered it was ninjutsu.

[warbandit66]

That was speculating so he wasn't 100% sure, here's Jiraiya confirming its genjutsu:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/379/04/

He was explaining the nature of the genjutsu.

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

still, he never considered it was ninjutsu.

You got a point there, but the fact that he wasn't 100% sure it was a genjutsu suggests it's because of the nature of the jutsu, since the jutsu isn't like a normal genjutsu. That's why even if there was a genjutsu specialised Pain body it might not be able to counter it since it won't know if it's really genjutsu and then if it did, it would be too late.

[segua]

Killing all the bodies = Killing Pein. The bodies aren't capable of self-revival. Otherwise Fuuma Pein would have revived automatically after it was killed in Jiraiya's barrier.

What I was trying to say before was from what was shown in the manga, Pein's secret, and how to kill Pein properly. We know that the bodies can't self-revive or at least most of them. We don't know if someone else could revive the bodies. There is not enough information on Pein to discern that killing all bodies will truly stop Pein.



Jiraiya needs to separate the bodies in order to bind them with the Frog Song. Jiraiya had a pretty hard time with just 3 bodies alone, and it only worked so well because Jiraiya was able to turn prior knowledge Pein had on Jiraiya from an asset to a handicap. Unless you give Jiraiya major help and/or preptime, it's pretty unlikely he can use the Frog Song against all six bodies at the same time.

You're absolutely right that going up against 6 Pein will be tough but what if those 6 Pein fell into the Toad song genjutsu?



I also mentioned Pein can utilize 6 different jutsu at the same time.

Oh yea, I'm sorry. Must've missed that one. I think that there also isn't enough information to say that each individual Pein could use other techniques. But from the Manga, it seems that each one specializes in one very polished technique which is associated to their respective realm.

[SMN]

there is probably no one in the village that could beat pain right know or even stands a chance to take out one of the bodies without his secrete being figured out. either his secrete is figured out and naruto comes back and defeats pain or pain is told about sasuke's failure and madara orders him to return because they can't remove the fox yet from naruto. it may be when asuma was killed and hidan and Kakuzu when they could have taken out all of asuma's team but they were saved because he they were ordered to retreat to to a sealing. but i am hoping naruto come in and saves the day, then goes with the cloud ninja's to find killer bee. i really want to see naruto and killer bee interact it would be funny.

[The Closet Pervert]

But from the Manga, it seems that each one specializes in one very polished technique which is associated to their respective realm.

That's not exacly true. We have seen Yahiko Pain perform multiple different jutsu, including Chakra Detection Rain, Bijuu sealing and long range communication. Examples below:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/255/06/
(note sure about this one http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/255/13/)
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/327/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/367/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/383/05/

I believe their Jutsu is more likely to be restricted to their own "realm".

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Killing all the bodies = Killing Pein. The bodies aren't capable of self-revival. Otherwise Fuuma Pein would have revived automatically after it was killed in Jiraiya's barrier.



Jiraiya needs to separate the bodies in order to bind them with the Frog Song. Jiraiya had a pretty hard time with just 3 bodies alone, and it only worked so well because Jiraiya was able to turn prior knowledge Pein had on Jiraiya from an asset to a handicap. Unless you give Jiraiya major help and/or preptime, it's pretty unlikely he can use the Frog Song against all six bodies at the same time.


I also mentioned Pein can utilize 6 different jutsu at the same time.

What? That's just not true. Killing all six bodies wouldn't do anything. Of course they'd come back. What was the code that Jariaya sent? "The real one is not with them". The real Pein isn't even there. The summoning Pein isn't the real one, at least that's what I got from it. Nagato is Pain, not Yahiko. That's what Jariaya realized. He knew that every other ninja was supposed to be dead. he realized that Nagato had the Rinnegan but none of the bodies looked like Nagato. In other words, Nagato is controlling all six bodies at the same time from a different location, hence the code "the real one is not with them". Why would he need to be there if he can see what they see?

Killing those bodies would not kill Pein. At the most, it would only buy them time. Killing puppets won't really matter if the puppet master is still alive. The worst scenario for the puppet master would be getting new puppets. If they kill all of the bodies beyond repair(which is a feat in itself), the real Pein would just get new ones. How can Naruto win? Easy, find the puppet master(Nagato). Though I don't think beating the puppet master will be easy, he can use every element known to man.

[segua]

That's not exacly true. We have seen Yahiko Pain perform multiple different jutsu, including Chakra Detection Rain, Bijuu sealing and long range communication. Examples below:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/255/06/
(note sure about this one http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/255/13/)
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/327/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/367/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/383/05/

I believe their Jutsu is more likely to be restricted to their own "realm".

I never did say "only specialize in" did I? What I meant was that their forte is in a jutsu associated with their realm. I don't know about being restricted part either.

[The Closet Pervert]

Nagato is Pain, not Yahiko

To support this, I present this page
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-408/page009.html


I never did say "only specialize in" did I? What I meant was that their forte is in a jutsu associated with their realm. I don't know about being restricted part either.

True, true. Just like all of them can use at least basic taijutsu but one of bodies seems to be extremely strong at it (Terminator/Robot Pain?).

I think the real question here is, is The Puppetmaster of Pain somewhere hidden or did he divide himself into those 6 bodies? If he's hidden somewhere, then killing the 6 bodies isn't enough. He can just create new ones. But if The Puppetmaster divided himself into those bodies, then killing all of them is enough to terminate Pain. But even in this case as long as 1 of bodies survive, Pain lives on.

[segua]

What? That's just not true. Killing all six bodies wouldn't do anything. Of course they'd come back. What was the code that Jariaya sent? "The real one is not with them". The real Pein isn't even there. The summoning Pein isn't the real one, at least that's what I got from it. Nagato is Pain, not Yahiko. That's what Jariaya realized. He knew that every other ninja was supposed to be dead. he realized that Nagato had the Rinnegan but none of the bodies looked like Nagato. In other words, Nagato is controlling all six bodies at the same time from a different location, hence the code "the real one is not with them". Why would he need to be there if he can see what they see?

Killing those bodies would not kill Pein. At the most, it would only buy them time. Killing puppets won't really matter if the puppet master is still alive. The worst scenario for the puppet master would be getting new puppets. If they kill all of the bodies beyond repair(which is a feat in itself), the real Pein would just get new ones. How can Naruto win? Easy, find the puppet master(Nagato). Though I don't think beating the puppet master will be easy, he can use every element known to man.

I still think that Nagato is dead. Jiraiya's intelligence is usually reliable. Well I suppose I could be dead wrong because Konan is still alive and both Nagato and Yahiko could be hiding in the dark somewhere. So far, I have to assume that Nagato is dead. I think it's confirmed by the face Konan made when Jiraiya questioned her about the other two.

Then again, Kishi has been playing very safely with this whole "who and what is Pein" thing. Kishi could very well reintroduce Nagato back.

[The Closet Pervert]

I still think that Nagato is dead.

This option *would* be the one that copies Uchiha clan tradition of stealing each others eyes. After stealing eyes use some mind reading jutsu (just like Soulripper Pain showed in latest chapter?) to find out all of the details of his past life. Tadaa! Imitation complete.

[TheOneElectric]

I still think that Nagato is dead. Jiraiya's intelligence is usually reliable. Well I suppose I could be dead wrong because Konan is still alive and both Nagato and Yahiko could be hiding in the dark somewhere. So far, I have to assume that Nagato is dead. I think it's confirmed by the face Konan made when Jiraiya questioned her about the other two.

Then again, Kishi has been playing very safely with this whole "who and what is Pein" thing. Kishi could very well reintroduce Nagato back.

Yes because Yahiko is so hiding in the dark somewhere. Look at the Deva Realm. No one could know the conversation between Nagato and Jiraiya except for Nagato and Jiraiya. It isn't that hard of a connection. Nagato will be back and he will either be on life support no jutsu or he will be the most badass thing ever to walk the Narutoverse.

[segua]

Well if it transferring doujutsu from different clansmen work between Uchiha and Sharigan, why not others right? Recall how the Lightning tried to obtain the secrets of the byakugan by first trying to kidnap Hinata and then trying to obtain the body of Hiashi? So it seems that these doujutsu could be learned and or transferred to a recipient person whose body could tolerate the new body part.

But for a person to maximize or even reach the full potential of the doujutsu, that person has to have the same blood as in the Uchiha's case with the supposedly termed eternal mangekyou sharigan (EMS).

But you know, if Nagato was so strong, why wasn't it Nagato who was the only survivor? Yet it was Konan. We just got to wait until more information comes out.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Yes because Yahiko is so hiding in the dark somewhere. Look at the Deva Realm. No one could know the conversation between Nagato and Jiraiya except for Nagato and Jiraiya. It isn't that hard of a connection. Nagato will be back and he will either be on life support no jutsu or he will be the most badass thing ever to walk the Narutoverse.

If I was a betting man, which I am, I would choose the badass thing ever walking option.

[segua]

Not another Kimimaro. Wait, Kmimaro was both. On life support and then the most badass thing to ever walked the earth and then died all on the same day.

[En Yang Ji]

Yes because Yahiko is so hiding in the dark somewhere. Look at the Deva Realm. No one could know the conversation between Nagato and Jiraiya except for Nagato and Jiraiya. It isn't that hard of a connection. Nagato will be back and he will either be on life support no jutsu or he will be the most badass thing ever to walk the Narutoverse.

Konan or Yahiko could of been listening to their conversation through the door.

[Baron Hugenstein]

Konan or Yahiko could of been listening to their conversation through the door.

That wouldn't make much sense, story wise.
This is more of a slight supporting proof that Nagato is still alive somewhere, controlling the 6 pains. However, he isn't the same Nagato Jiraiya knew.

[Seriph2]

I'm almost positive that madara IS pein. What better villain than a sharingan + Rin'negan wielding badass.... It would explain the only one eye being shown with his mask, and also why supposedly 2 such powerful entities ( pein and madara ) are working "together". PLUS it would also make jirayas statement about nagato being dead true, AND we've already been tricked once with tobi not just being a random akatsuki member its not too far fetched.

Think about it madara the strongest uchiha wasnt powerful enough to beat the senju clan top dog and the 9 tails wasnt enough to destroy konoha either, where do you go from there? How about gaining the abilities of not only the founding father of shinobi's, and ALL the tailed beasts on top of having the EMS..... I cant think of a more "sure fire" way to dominate the ninja world.


p.s. On top of all these puzzle pieces fitting it would set up an EPIC rematch with naruto a senju clan descendant ( correct me if im wrong? ) and madara. Now things that arent accounted for with this theory are sasuke's role in the grand scheme of things and also kabuto/oro resurfacing but I think those are things that can still be worked into the story line afterall sasuke is NOT the main character at some point in time he has GOT to take the back seat to naruto overall.

[EnSiFeR]

What? That's just not true. Killing all six bodies wouldn't do anything. Of course they'd come back. What was the code that Jariaya sent? "The real one is not with them". The real Pein isn't even there. The summoning Pein isn't the real one, at least that's what I got from it. Nagato is Pain, not Yahiko. That's what Jariaya realized.

I guess you are kinda wrong there, the code J-man left was: "There is no real one" which can be interpreted in a slightly different way.

[Zhee]

I guess you are kinda wrong there, the code J-man left was: "There is no real one" which can be interpreted in a slightly different way.

Not from anything I've seen.
Link?

[burningrubble]

There are a couple of questions I have about Pain.

1) He is able to summon many different species of animals. Why is that? Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Sarutobi, Tsunade, even godly Sasuke, they all can only summon one type of animal--the one that they have a contract with. So the Rin'negan seems to be able to bypass the need to have a contract. Does that mean that he can summon frogs/toads?

2) He summons without blood. I'm sure that it says somewhere that all summons require a sacrifice, usually blood, in order to summon. But he didn't. If he doesn't require blood to summon normal animals, perhaps he doesn't require blood or a sacrifice to revive the dead (as opposed to Orochimaru, who had to sacrifice people). Is that another of his powers?

3) If Nagato is alive somewhere, has a lot of spare bodies, and is at no risk of being hurt, why does he need to worry about the ninja villages? Why does he not just keep summoning more and more bodies to deal with each village, and then just wipe out every ninja village that way? This seems to suggest that there are some limits to what he can control--he is only able to control 6 at a time. Why is that?

[Askia32]

Yes because Yahiko is so hiding in the dark somewhere. Look at the Deva Realm. No one could know the conversation between Nagato and Jiraiya except for Nagato and Jiraiya. It isn't that hard of a connection. Nagato will be back and he will either be on life support no jutsu or he will be the most badass thing ever to walk the Narutoverse.

I don't think it's as simple as #7 being Nagato. It has to be something more complicated than that for more climax. Jiraiya stumbled upon something and yelled "Pein, I know who you are...", not "I was right your..."

[Seriph2]

I don't think it's as simple as #7 being Nagato. It has to be something more complicated than that for more climax. Jiraiya stumbled upon something and yelled "Pein, I know who you are...", not "I was right your..."

I'm almost positive that madara IS pein. What better villain than a sharingan + Rin'negan wielding badass.... It would explain the only one eye being shown with his mask, and also why supposedly 2 such powerful entities ( pein and madara ) are working "together". PLUS it would also make jirayas statement about nagato being dead true, AND we've already been tricked once with tobi not just being a random akatsuki member its not too far fetched.

Think about it madara the strongest uchiha wasnt powerful enough to beat the senju clan top dog and the 9 tails wasnt enough to destroy konoha either, where do you go from there? How about gaining the abilities of not only the founding father of shinobi's, and ALL the tailed beasts on top of having the EMS..... I cant think of a more "sure fire" way to dominate the ninja world.


p.s. On top of all these puzzle pieces fitting it would set up an EPIC rematch with naruto a senju clan descendant ( correct me if im wrong? ) and madara. Now things that arent accounted for with this theory are sasuke's role in the grand scheme of things and also kabuto/oro resurfacing but I think those are things that can still be worked into the story line afterall sasuke is NOT the main character at some point in time he has GOT to take the back seat to naruto overall.

[lazybear]

There are a couple of questions I have about Pain.

1) He is able to summon many different species of animals. Why is that? Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Sarutobi, Tsunade, even godly Sasuke, they all can only summon one type of animal--the one that they have a contract with. So the Rin'negan seems to be able to bypass the need to have a contract. Does that mean that he can summon frogs/toads?

2) He summons without blood. I'm sure that it says somewhere that all summons require a sacrifice, usually blood, in order to summon. But he didn't. If he doesn't require blood to summon normal animals, perhaps he doesn't require blood or a sacrifice to revive the dead (as opposed to Orochimaru, who had to sacrifice people). Is that another of his powers?

3) If Nagato is alive somewhere, has a lot of spare bodies, and is at no risk of being hurt, why does he need to worry about the ninja villages? Why does he not just keep summoning more and more bodies to deal with each village, and then just wipe out every ninja village that way? This seems to suggest that there are some limits to what he can control--he is only able to control 6 at a time. Why is that?


i'm not positive on these answers, but for the first issue you had, i'm thinking that the "animal realm" or summoning pein can summon all of those species of animals b/c of how all the animals looked. each different animal had the rinnegan eyes and had those black spears/stakes/whatevers in them. possibly the animal realm pain either just controls all of them b/c he's just so strong(not likely) or maybe he/she defeated someone who controlled them before and took control w/ the rinnegan and black spear things and can now summon at anytime.

second issue, again not positive about these answers, but just ideas. perhaps he/she doesnt need to sacrifice blood b/c he or she actually controls them and its not a pact. the rinnegan eyes suggest this. but who knows...

third issue. this one kind of seems obvious where as if he did have unlimited amount of bodies that he can "possess" or control, its been brought up before in the forums about the 6 paths of pain. or the 6 different realms. and maybe if it were the "203948230482304923 paths of pain" or "unlimited paths of pain" you can assume there are only 6 at a time.

[Silver_Archer]

Each of the pain bodies has a speciality somewhat corelating with their realm. Hungry ghost realm absorbs jutsu. Animal realm summons animals. Perhaps this is more important than asking whether they have contracts or use blood. Perhaps they are not using conventional ninjutsu, but something else entirely.

The rinnegan was supposed to be the doujutsu of Rikudo (sp?) Sennin, the first shinobi in the world. Perhaps this is some sort of proto ninjutsu; like ninjutsu but different from the rest, and thus having different characteristics/rules. Kind of like Senjutsu that Naruto is learning, it's a kind of ninjutsu different from what any other shinobi is using, in that it is moulding chakra in using a different paradigm altogether. So, if I had to take a guess, I'd say Pain's ability are part of a different paradigm altogether, and so not limited by any of the conventional limitations.

[DeathBerry]

It's all about putting the hands together, go transmutation ._.!

On the other hand... I believe that after not finding Naruto, Pain is going to get rid of the evidence maybe? You know, kill the shinobi and dispose of the corpse thing, either by destroying it, disappearing it, reanimating it, w/e.

[Sunburn74]

I think animal pein summons animals, but can create them. A few of those summons were amalgamations of one or more animals. Also, to tell there was one that looked like a giant stuffed bear, not even alive.

What's really lousy is kishi never shows you the nin that nagato killed. How that guy died probably was the key to unraveling pain's true nature as whatever pain used to kill him, was something intrinsic to him and to him alone. No tricks, no deception, no bodies.

[bcityballa]

Pein Jumped into Konoha blew up a couple buildings and launched a giant centipede... where is everybody? Thats like tanks coming into a small town and everybody ignoring it. Plus i thought the six paths were mainly elemental i saw he could use different realms so would that mean that if each realm were to do elemental jutsu they would use a different element?

[Jimmothy]

Konoha has a lot of people out on missions since they are the most popular/powerful nation to hire. Most people might just be plain out doing random missions. Pein also deceived the watchers of Konoha by running in with just one body and summoning the rest. Quite frankly, Pein pulled a quick one to attack. Element of surprise will be the downfall.

I'm not sure if each body has a specific element though. The bodies seem to ascend the need of elemental jutsu. I believe the manga said the rinnegan could control all six elements, so it wouldn't be hard to believe that they all could use all six elements since each body possesses the rinnegan.

[Shaunlim]

I got ya :amuse


You know, up to that, its mere speculations... we/you can't know what happened that whole fight. If Pain wasn't even able to defeat an Old-Hanzou on his own and had been helped by Konan, what would make him a god? Wouldn't that make Hanzou's powers even more superior and overwhelming?

Imho Hanzou was created by kishi just to show us how strong Pain, since I don't think we'll hear about Hanzou any time soon in the manga, if ever again.

By reading Kishi's early chapters, you can tell that he probably used the "No ONE" You're reffering as an hint to let us know that Pain had more than just 1 body.
I'm glad you understand what I meant :amuse

Well it might be speculation about the number of bodies used, it's not far fetched to say that Pein did used all 6 or simply more than 1. Since Jiraiya with Ma Pa and Sennin mode basically took out 3 Peins while Hanzou took out all 3 sannins. IMHO the Sannin all together is stronger than one Jiraiya with Ma and Pa and Sennin mode. Though it is still a speculation. But like you said, it could be a hint Kishi left.



No he woudnt because he woudnt give jiraiya the chance to mess around with his summons and such, he'd just murder him like he did.

Well, even with all 6 bodies present, he still manage took out one of them. He wasn't exactly 100% at that time too. So IMO, if Pein had brought all 6 out instead of 3 like he did in the beginning(after Sennin mode is out), there is still a chance for Jiraiya to escape and use the genjutsu song.

[matsemann08]

Can someone please tell me when we were told that Pain has six elements?

[bean]

Can someone please tell me when we were told that Pain has six elements?
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/11/
there you go

[CTG05]

During the Pain/Jiraiya fight J-man said that as a child Nagato mastered all 6 elements because of the rinnegan. Wether or not Pain is Nagato he has the rinnegan so it would make sense for him to be able to use all six elements. And for the record your sig. is freakin hilarious.

[bennibb]

Wel... just to be anoying here. It was Nagato who could use all 6 elements. Not Pein. And if Nagato is not there anymore due to the translation "there is no real one" Then we cant assume that Pein knows all that Nagato knows or could do. Jirayia found it even strange. Witch gave a hint that something was wrong... But to be fair... We have only scratched the surface of Peins powers here... So its to early to dismiss. And even if 1 body cant do all 6 now... the combined could possibly manage.

[gold349]

granted it was said Nagato was proficient in all six chakra types, IMO that is a trait of rinangan. To me Nagato is just a puppet master with real bodies, if he can give different bodies different realms to control then he should be able to have control over all realms himself as one body/entity. The jutsu/techniques the bodies are showing to be bale to do he should be able to do that too. It was shown with the death of animal realm body that he replaced it with another that can do what the previous one was able to do, these justus/techniques have to come from himself. He has to be somewhere, as who/what nobody knows for sure but kishi has only touched upon the bodies now and we will see if and how the six elements come into play.

[binkansarariman]

wow.. after a long holiday (and without internet) i am so surprised to learn that the killerbee is still alive and kicking. Plus, his relationship with his eight-tails is remarkably good! And its cool to learn more of leaf's military/ defensive system in action (apart from the anbu, the genin, chounin, jounin, hokages etc..etc). Just i have some curiosities on bee's conversation with his eight-tail, and i hope u guys can help me to understand:

hachibi said about 'singing enka'.. another scanlation do not mentioned 'enka' but 'ballad' instead. And 'Sabu' - other scanlation mentioned 'sub-sensei'? What's that all about?

as per the prediction for 420- i say the chapter will focus on Pain invasion of the leaf. I think he's a great strategist. So the leaf will be on a hard time dealing with them. As for naruto, he wont get any appearance for chapters- surely by just in time he finished all his training(and his 'secret' training) he will be called to leaf's aid and manage to ward off the akatsukis. And while naruto pwning peins' assess, sasuke will arrive and in shocked of how much progress naruto had made- and that will make him super-pissed and called off his plan. So akatsuki is defeated- and sasuke will return to madara to learn.
[hr]

granted it was said Nagato was proficient in all six chakra types, IMO that is a trait of rinangan. To me Nagato is just a puppet master with real bodies, if he can give different bodies different realms to control then he should be able to have control over all realms himself as one body/entity. The jutsu/techniques the bodies are showing to be bale to do he should be able to do that too. It was shown with the death of animal realm body that he replaced it with another that can do what the previous one was able to do, these justus/techniques have to come from himself. He has to be somewhere, as who/what nobody knows for sure but kishi has only touched upon the bodies now and we will see if and how the six elements come into play.

the mystery of rinnegan is still largely not elaborated in the narutoverse. Kishi just told us that it is the most powerful eye-technique in narutoverse. The clues we have is 'nagato is not among them, and yahiko represent the deva path' apart from that six path elaboration on their tactics - the naraka, animal, asura, deva, man,and preta.

The six paths philosophy n strategy is truly unbeatable(at least that's how i see it), esp with one mind which take control the six paths-absolute offense-defense with little conflicts and margin for errors can be achieved. To compare with naruto- he can creates bunshins and coordinate the offense-defense. But each bunshin has its own mind and with so many minds will cause errors and conflicts with the execution of a tactic. Plus, with Pain, he doesnt have to use up much energy, he only have to manipulate the 6 bodies chakra, capabilities and techniques.

[g1534]

Not entirely true about naruto's shadow clones. He thinks up a strategy ahead of time, then does Shadow Clone jutsu. This means the clones are all created with the strategy in mind. Of course, this is not as powerful as the rinnegan's shared vision, but the pain bodies do not seem to share thoughts, as they often communicate with one another... unless that's nagato monologuing through a different body each time...

[samsiufan]

Pein Jumped into Konoha blew up a couple buildings and launched a giant centipede... where is everybody? Thats like tanks coming into a small town and everybody ignoring it. Plus i thought the six paths were mainly elemental i saw he could use different realms so would that mean that if each realm were to do elemental jutsu they would use a different element?

Well he made Konoha security think that it was just one intruder and then that intruder summoned the rest....all of that could have taken only 30 minutes (if that) and then now security has realised that it is more than one intruder and message is being sent to hokage...once she receives that messag she will define the strategy and it will be time for some action....

So I don't think anyone is ignoring Pain....Pain's attack was sudden given the attack and the strategy and it will take a bit of time to mobilise...

[Kshunsui]

I truly believe that if the Pein Asura (hell realm I don't remember the name lol) realm dies the other bodies don't comeback to life, unless Yahiko re-assigned to another body the Asura realm, or he (or one of his bodies) need eye contact to revive the body, that would explain why the animal realm/ Sumonner Pain killed by J-Man and Pa /Ma Frog don't comeback to life:darn

[gold349]

wow.. after a long holiday (and without internet) i am so surprised to learn that the killerbee is still alive and kicking. Plus, his relationship with his eight-tails is remarkably good! And its cool to learn more of leaf's military/ defensive system in action (apart from the anbu, the genin, chounin, jounin, hokages etc..etc). Just i have some curiosities on bee's conversation with his eight-tail, and i hope u guys can help me to understand:

hachibi said about 'singing enka'.. another scanlation do not mentioned 'enka' but 'ballad' instead. And 'Sabu' - other scanlation mentioned 'sub-sensei'? What's that all about?

as per the prediction for 420- i say the chapter will focus on Pain invasion of the leaf. I think he's a great strategist. So the leaf will be on a hard time dealing with them. As for naruto, he wont get any appearance for chapters- surely by just in time he finished all his training(and his 'secret' training) he will be called to leaf's aid and manage to ward off the akatsukis. And while naruto pwning peins' assess, sasuke will arrive and in shocked of how much progress naruto had made- and that will make him super-pissed and called off his plan. So akatsuki is defeated- and sasuke will return to madara to learn.
<hr noshade size="1">


the mystery of rinnegan is still largely not elaborated in the narutoverse. Kishi just told us that it is the most powerful eye-technique in narutoverse. The clues we have is 'nagato is not among them, and yahiko represent the deva path' apart from that six path elaboration on their tactics - the naraka, animal, asura, deva, man,and preta.

The six paths philosophy n strategy is truly unbeatable(at least that's how i see it), esp with one mind which take control the six paths-absolute offense-defense with little conflicts and margin for errors can be achieved. To compare with naruto- he can creates bunshins and coordinate the offense-defense. But each bunshin has its own mind and with so many minds will cause errors and conflicts with the execution of a tactic. Plus, with Pain, he doesnt have to use up much energy, he only have to manipulate the 6 bodies chakra, capabilities and techniques.


Naruto does both he thinks up strategy/plan then makes KB's and he makes KB's to test the water as to speak and makes a plan with more KB's according to the info relayed. True its many minds/thoughts but its only focusing on one enemy...with one mind set and that is too pull of attack/defence it shouldn't cause errors/conflict with the execution. Pain has instant info relay, where as Naruto only receives once the KB's go but the potential Naruto has with senjutsu and kyubi chakra is enormous, he may be able to spam KB's like nothing and similar to Pain, one day when everything is done and finished he may never have to take part in battle in person.

Just imagine, he sits back lets his KB's do the business while just chill in and watching making more KB's if necessary. As he receives more and more info from battle he adjusts with his strategy/plan and attacks/defends accordingly with other KB's in the field. I could see him making KB's while fighting one goes puff, the info learned from that KB goes back to user but also the other KB's still left in the field, that is still something that is left vague, could that happen?..far fetched I know but the potential/capability for Naruto surpasses that of Pain IMO. Pain is immortal due to the fact he doesn't have to participate in actual battle, that tag of immortality could also be given to Naruto one day.

[Quetz]

I truly believe that if the Pein Asura (hell realm I don't remember the name lol) realm dies the other bodies don't comeback to life, unless Yahiko re-assigned to another body the Asura realm, or he (or one of his bodies) need eye contact to revive the body, that would explain why the animal realm/ Sumonner Pain killed by J-Man and Pa /Ma Frog don't comeback to life:darn

Or it could be that since the body was taken away before it could be revived, pain found it more prudent to simply create a new one rather than go into konoha with just five bodies?

[matsemann08]

This is the abilities of the six paths of Pain in the Anime/Manga "Reborn!"

* The first realm, the "Realm of Hell", which grants him the power to create illusions.
* Second ("二" represents the number two) is the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, which grants him the power to use the skills of others; when he controls a person's body, he is able to perfectly perform their signature attacks.
* Third ("三" is three) is the Realm of Animals, which grants him the power to summon and control deadly animals.
* Fourth ("四" is four) is the Realm of Asura, which increases his battle skills; when using this skill, a dark flame surrounds his right eye.
* Fifth ("五" is five) is the Realm of Humans, which increases his battle aura, thus his strength; it is considered to be the most dangerous of the Six Realms; when Mukuro first enters the realm, he physically pierces his right eye, and a type of aura, resembling the Dying Will Flame, then surrounds Mukuro's entire body, but unlike the Dying Will Flame, Mukuro's aura, in itself, poses no danger, as it just represents Mukuro's fighting spirit.
* Sixth ("六" is six) is the Realm of Heaven, which grants him the power to control others.

[Kshunsui]

Or it could be that since the body was taken away before it could be revived, pain found it more prudent to simply create a new one rather than go into konoha with just five bodies?

That's my point, he need eye contact, the bodies can be killed, and need eye contact from another Pein to came back to life, maybe the split strategy play against Pein, the six Pein are invincible together Separate can be killed, I think he's gonna leave Konoha with a lesson of humility:darn

[segua]

I think there's a problem with those Pein and it's that they rely too much on sight. And if there is really one person controlling the 6, then all the more reason to say that Pein relies heavily on sight. That could be do to the mental stress involved when using all 6 Peins in my opinion and the stress is lowered by utilizing certain abilities of each one and by their shared vision.

Also, you could use ninjutsu to create real bodies in my opinion or something really really close. In some creation myths, it was written that humans were created out of dust or red earth. The human body is also made up of 80% water. Bones are made using calcium which is also found in certain rocks such as dolomite, limestone and even marble. Heat production is also crucial to humans functioning properly. Wind is symbolic of spirit. Electricity to fire off in the brains. For chakra, the actual puppetmaster has to use those black objects to probably inject his own charka to the dolls.

So being a master of all the basic elements and combining them at certain ratios, you could perhaps create something akin to a human being. I'm sure the whole process is a complex yet delicate procedure. Yet one thing that I can't figure out was that the Fuuma-Pein had a scar that Jiraiya himself delivered to that ninja. Well, it seems that Jiraiya's past seems to serve as a tool of inspiration for Pein to base his bodies from. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rinnegan has the power to delve into other peoples memory or to even use the memories as access points to view or the past or so.

[patedecarne]

One things still bugs me:

Let's say that Pain has the ability to replace a dead body easily (and seems he really has such ability), so, if by chance some Pains were to be destroyed in Konoha (highly possibly, about 99% sure about it), exactly how Konoha can defeat this beast?

I mean, if the secret lies beyond the sixth bodied, which seems to be the case, then every dead body will be replace at Konoha, and a moment will come where Konoha won't have more powers to counter Pain;

That's the scenario I'm foreseeing:

-One body is destroyed;

-Pain then replaces such body with the respective realm;

-Another body is destroyed in the process;

-Pain replaces this one too;

see my logic? Konoha would have the upper hand in the beginning, but after 200, 300 replacements? Would Konoha still be able to maintain its stamina? probably all nins would be so fatigued...

[laughing@you]

Naruto does both he thinks up strategy/plan then makes KB's and he makes KB's to test the water as to speak and makes a plan with more KB's according to the info relayed. True its many minds/thoughts but its only focusing on one enemy...with one mind set and that is too pull of attack/defence it shouldn't cause errors/conflict with the execution. Pain has instant info relay, where as Naruto only receives once the KB's go but the potential Naruto has with senjutsu and kyubi chakra is enormous, he may be able to spam KB's like nothing and similar to Pain, one day when everything is done and finished he may never have to take part in battle in person.

Just imagine, he sits back lets his KB's do the business while just chill in and watching making more KB's if necessary. As he receives more and more info from battle he adjusts with his strategy/plan and attacks/defends accordingly with other KB's in the field. I could see him making KB's while fighting one goes puff, the info learned from that KB goes back to user but also the other KB's still left in the field, that is still something that is left vague, could that happen?..far fetched I know but the potential/capability for Naruto surpasses that of Pain IMO. Pain is immortal due to the fact he doesn't have to participate in actual battle, that tag of immortality could also be given to Naruto one day.

Well the previous person, had a point pein's approach is a lot better than naruto cuz it provides real-time strategy. Naruto has to create a new batch of KB to get his new plan, when his previous one didn't work.

Now if your are hinting that naruto is Lelouch vi Britannia's re-encarnation, that he can predict and plan ahead, then i'm all for it!!!

All hail naruto vi konoha!!!! lol
[hr]

One things still bugs me:

Let's say that Pain has the ability to replace a dead body easily (and seems he really has such ability), so, if by chance some Pains were to be destroyed in Konoha (highly possibly, about 99% sure about it), exactly how Konoha can defeat this beast?

I mean, if the secret lies beyond the sixth bodied, which seems to be the case, then every dead body will be replace at Konoha, and a moment will come where Konoha won't have more powers to counter Pain;

That's the scenario I'm foreseeing:

-One body is destroyed;

-Pain then replaces such body with the respective realm;

-Another body is destroyed in the process;

-Pain replaces this one too;

see my logic? Konoha would have the upper hand in the beginning, but after 200, 300 replacements? Would Konoha still be able to maintain its stamina? probably all nins would be so fatigued...

I like how you think man!!!

But i doubt pein is able to re-stock that easily!!!

If my theory is correct then the real pain is highly concealed and protected. So he needs to step out of his cocoon or hiding place to physically see face to face the body his gonna use!!! Thats when konoha should strike!!!

Jiraiya already gave a hint of this, when he said the real one is not with them. So konoha most likely will attack pein's village, probably after the second pein attack

[TheOneElectric]

One things still bugs me:

Let's say that Pain has the ability to replace a dead body easily (and seems he really has such ability), so, if by chance some Pains were to be destroyed in Konoha (highly possibly, about 99% sure about it), exactly how Konoha can defeat this beast?

I mean, if the secret lies beyond the sixth bodied, which seems to be the case, then every dead body will be replace at Konoha, and a moment will come where Konoha won't have more powers to counter Pain;

That's the scenario I'm foreseeing:

-One body is destroyed;

-Pain then replaces such body with the respective realm;

-Another body is destroyed in the process;

-Pain replaces this one too;

see my logic? Konoha would have the upper hand in the beginning, but after 200, 300 replacements? Would Konoha still be able to maintain its stamina? probably all nins would be so fatigued...

Ha. 200 replacements...Konoha won't get a chance to cause Pein to make ANY replacements. Konoha gets razed the first time around.

[lvarella]

One things still bugs me:
see my logic? Konoha would have the upper hand in the beginning, but after 200, 300 replacements? Would Konoha still be able to maintain its stamina? probably all nins would be so fatigued...

I don't think Pain can do 200, 300 replacements in one fight time, he needs to use chakra for that, and I don't see him having an infinite chakra pool. As I said before, Pain is so arrogant, he's gonna lose this fight, he divided the bodies, and they just work together.
The real Pain is gonna be the real pain, controlling all the elements is powerful.

[Lynkobi17]

Damn, I had a feeling that KillaBee wouldn't go down that easily...
But I think he will still be taken down... Madara is going to find him!
And we will finally be able to see Madara's true power...in action at least...

Yet, when we say Naruto will come and save the day, he will sacrifice himself for the sake of the village.
I mean, this is Pain!!!! The power they will distribute may not be enough to take down Sage-Naruto as a whole, but it is able to take down the whole village.

In order for the village to be kept safe, he will either drag Pain out, or just give himself up because he knows that he is the reason Pain is here in the first place.

Soon Naruto will be left Unconcious with no demon in him, just a dark living chakra, the chakra that Itatchi implanted in him. This will revive Naruto and he will come back to life. I don't know about the eyes or how the black bird chakra will do to him, but I do have this feeling...that he will sacrifice himself and go with Pain after a huge crazy ninja battle!!!

[laughing@you]

I Borrowed a quote from GK's review, since I'm too lazy to type it over. It's the basis of the Chinese folkloric about Pain's 6 paths. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_(Buddhism))



I like your idea, but even as strong as Pain seems, It looks like he must have proper preparation before choosing a new body. If you've read the quote above, you'll notice that in order to have a new body assigned to the proper realm, the Body choosed has to have the proper Mindset to attached to it. <--- 'Coz he could've spawned a new body right after J-man's barrier made him lose contact with the First Sumoner-Pain.

True, kishi might not use that rule line, but who knows.

The thing is, if Pain was/is able to accomplish that much as you imply, then there's nobody who can hope to defeat him, not even the 5 countries put together. Even for a god, that kind of power should be prohibited.

Though I'm sure he'll lose 1 or 2 Bodies in Konoha.

The time pein took to get battle ready may support that theory of yours!!

His the last person alive with the rinnengan, so it can be beaten!!!

But i don't believe he needs somebody in specific, i think the down side is that he needs to get out of where ever he is and needs a special one on one look in the eye, with whoever he wants to use and assign it a task. But once that ability is assigned it cannot be changed.

Another thing if konoha manages to take out the summoner and the healer, konoha has better chances to defeat pein. Pein its his own guild. attack, defense, support, magic, etc....

kishimoto you slick bastard!!!

[llamapie]

Damn, I had a feeling that KillaBee wouldn't go down that easily...
But I think he will still be taken down... Madara is going to find him!
And we will finally be able to see Madara's true power...in action at least...

Yet, when we say Naruto will come and save the day, he will sacrifice himself for the sake of the village.
I mean, this is Pain!!!! The power they will distribute may not be enough to take down Sage-Naruto as a whole, but it is able to take down the whole village.

In order for the village to be kept safe, he will either drag Pain out, or just give himself up because he knows that he is the reason Pain is here in the first place.

Soon Naruto will be left Unconcious with no demon in him, just a dark living chakra, the chakra that Itatchi implanted in him. This will revive Naruto and he will come back to life. I don't know about the eyes or how the black bird chakra will do to him, but I do have this feeling...that he will sacrifice himself and go with Pain after a huge crazy ninja battle!!!

All noble and stuff but unlikely. Mainly because Naruto doesn't give up. He would more than likely send a shadow clone than himself. (That would be hilarious).

[lvarella]

Damn, I had a feeling that KillaBee wouldn't go
Soon Naruto will be left Unconcious with no demon in him, just a dark living chakra, the chakra that Itatchi implanted in him. This will revive Naruto and he will come back to life. I don't know about the eyes or how the black bird chakra will do to him, but I do have this feeling...that he will sacrifice himself and go with Pain after a huge crazy ninja battle!!!

Naruto will never lose the 9 Tails, they will become one. What Itachi gave to Naruto was something to use against Sasuke.

[laughing@you]

Yet, when we say Naruto will come and save the day, he will sacrifice himself for the sake of the village.
I mean, this is Pain!!!! The power they will distribute may not be enough to take down Sage-Naruto as a whole, but it is able to take down the whole village.

So...naruto is stronger than all konoha put together?



In order for the village to be kept safe, he will either drag Pain out, or just give himself up because he knows that he is the reason Pain is here in the first place.

Soon Naruto will be left Unconcious with no demon in him, just a dark living chakra, the chakra that Itatchi implanted in him. This will revive Naruto and he will come back to life. I don't know about the eyes or how the black bird chakra will do to him, but I do have this feeling...that he will sacrifice himself and go with Pain after a huge crazy ninja battle!!!

Cool theory on what itachi gave him. But i don't know naruto kiuby-less is like cofee with no sugar.....me no like it!!

IDK, I still think kiuby-naruto will play a major role in the end. kiuby naruto vs akatuski's doomsday jutsu or bijuu army.

[Quetz]

All noble and stuff but unlikely. Mainly because Naruto doesn't give up. He would more than likely send a shadow clone than himself. (That would be hilarious).

If oro (with no legendary doujutsu) was able to tell the difference between an ink clone and the real sai, I don't see how the strongest doujutsu would ever be fooled by such a simplistic trick.

And I doubt the above prediction. Itachi's gift will have something to do with sasuke, period. There's no way itachi could have thought of something like that; if I had to guess, I'd say it'd be some sort of anti-ameratsu measure.

Before the killerbee fight I would have said it would have been anti-genjutsu, but apparently naruto already has the means to instantly dispel genjutsu, should he ever master it.

[nat]

How can they take out the healer and summoner? each Pein unit is indipendant in terms of power and resistance. Each body alone can cause destrution, even if seperated from the others. To take him down, Konoha needs someone like J-man.

And that has a zero percent chance of happening.

[frazierificus]

I think that the 4th and jyira's relationship as student ad teacher--> hokage and teacher is gonna be just like kakahi and naruto.

jiyra was stronger than the forth i think but he didnt wanna be hokage and i think thats exacly like kakashi but idk since naruto is stronger...lol.


No no no no no, lol. It's been stated that Minato "The 4th Hokage" was the strongest shinobi in history. So to say that Jiraiya was stronger would be absurd.

[nat]

ooooooohhh... Relax, breath ..they said "greatest" not strongest, what the manga showed us so far clearly states that Minato is not the strongest....you have monsters like Hashirama and Madara.

Minato is a mystery, we don t know what he can do. But many people agreed that the strongest one Konoha produced was the third. Also, Jiraiya is a powerhouse and fully rounded. he has his style of fighting and proved to be insanely powerful.


His only weakness is that he faced an enemy who knew his Justu, moves and tactics. That is why having students can be bad for one's health...Ask The Third..

[laughing@you]

How can they take out the healer and summoner? each Pein unit is indipendant in terms of power and resistance. Each body alone can cause destrution, even if seperated from the others. To take him down, Konoha needs someone like J-man.

And that has a zero percent chance of happening.

Each body is powerful but not invincible.

In which the summoner is the weaker link. why? If you think of pein's strategy against jiraiya he went out with a summoner. When pein couldn't deal with jiraiya with his summons, he called for backup, cuz its the only one that can do it. Jiraiya proved each body can be killed. Now because of the summoner pein managed to call upon the rest and probably the healer, and was able to revive all his bodies.

If konoha manages to seperate them and force each body of pein to fight independetly, konoha can defeat pein. If the healer goes, pein has to push on without healing his bodies. At that point he might think that a retreat should be in order. Or he might even loose konan.

[Bucks]

I'm pretty sure that Kishi said in a an interview after the Jiraiya died that Minato was most likely the strongest of the dead people. This includes Sandaime and Jiraiya, so I would like to think Minato was stronger.

Btw, I love the missiles:wtf:wtf

[nat]

could you show me that interview?
It will help understanding ...(Even though deep inside I belive Itachi is the strongest, but hey, that is a biased opinion)


@ bennibb, I agree it is stupid to compare, but I have to insist that Minato is not that powerful. he is very much hyped and everyone thinks he is the strongest only beacsue he sacrificed himself. Until Kishi explains more or tells why he was the strongest, it remains speculation.


@ laughing@you , noooooo why Konan?
she didn t do anything to you, well didn t do anything at all...
But I do agree for the rest, except they need someone as strong as J-man to take out the bodies or a similar tactic...

[bennibb]

Not this again... Sandaime gave his position as Hokage to Minato... SOO at that point Minato was stronger. But debate who is stronger is useless... I beleve, and the manga has alosow stated that Minato was the strongest ever. But... im not gonna get into this anymore... its all in the past... and can never be proven unless Kishi shows us a power meter of some kind. Naruto strives to be the best off all... his goal is to surpass Yondaime... Hint hint
[hr]
btw.... someone said that the interviev was fake... so regard that as evidence

[TheOneElectric]

could you show me that interview?
It will help understanding ...(Even though deep inside I belive Itachi is the strongest, but hey, that is a biased opinion)

Itachi stated himself that if he and Kisame tried to take Naruto from Jiraiya by force that they would die. I think Itachi is like the 4th or fifth strongest of all the dead people.

[bennibb]

Damn... 1 last ting... Even if 1 loose agains another... doesnt mean he'll loose against everyone else that the other had beaten up until that point. If you get my drift

[Belisar]

I'm pretty sure that Kishi said in a an interview after the Jiraiya died that Minato was most likely the strongest of the dead people. This includes Sandaime and Jiraiya, so I would like to think Minato was stronger.

Btw, I love the missiles:wtf:wtf
Manga says: Minato is the greatest shinobi of Konoha. It also says that Sarutobi was the strongest shinobi in history. Strong is not equal to great. Clear?


Not this again... Sandaime gave his position as Hokage to Minato... SOO at that point Minato was stronger.
Nope! Sandaime was already old. It was time for the younger generation to take the seat. The time Orochimaru run from the village was just a few years after Sarutobi retired. He was something about sixty years old.



But debate who is stronger is useless... I beleve, and the manga has alosow stated that Minato was the strongest ever.
Nope again! Read my answer above for Bucks.

[bennibb]

My trans about that is different. I have seen fan trans saying that they would both die etc etc... but alsow seen many trans that says they would have a rough time trying. and that compared to Jirayia there names would seem strong. This can go on and on... same with the trans gap we have now... was it "the real one isnt there" ??? or "there is no real on"

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

I'm pretty sure that Kishi said in a an interview after the Jiraiya died that Minato was most likely the strongest of the dead people. This includes Sandaime and Jiraiya, so I would like to think Minato was stronger.

Btw, I love the missiles:wtf:wtf

Sorry but i've heard ur statement countless time, even before jiraiya died, yet no one was able to prove it nor coud they show me the interview. So this interview is considered fake to me, unless u show it.

[bennibb]

Its alsow said in the manga that Orochimaru was stronger than Jirayia... but no one beleves that now do they??? This "titles" are not stated facts... its just loose talk from random ppl in the manga.

[nat]

Itachi stated himself that if he and Kisame tried to take Naruto from Jiraiya by force that they would die. I think Itachi is like the 4th or fifth strongest of all the dead people.

First time I disagree with you :notrust
Itachi is the strongest, period......)personal opinion

Not so personal opinion, Hashirama is the strongest :D they guy controlled Bijuu and give them away like candy...

But that has nothing to do with the topic, which is Pein and how he will try to kill everyone to get to Naruto.
I sincerely hope that he comes back after this all over. This way he will be spared, and he will hunt Pein down...

@ bennibb ,I think I agree with you on that idea :p

[bennibb]

Forget about that interview... I beleve it was proven fake a long time ago

[kt5nc9]

No no no no no, lol. It's been stated that Minato "The 4th Hokage" was the strongest shinobi in history.

Nuh uh. :eyeroll

[Jspot]

Manga says: Minato is the greatest shinobi of Konoha. It also says that Sarutobi was the strongest shinobi in history. Strong is not equal to great. Clear?


Nope! Sandaime was already old. It was the time for the younger generation to take the seat. The time Orochimaru tokk the run from the village was just a few years after Sarutobi retired. He was something about sixty years old.


Nope again! Read my answer above for Bucks.
If you have the gall to be so condescending, the least you could do is actually provide some onemanga citations to prove your side of the argument.

[Belisar]

If you have the gall to be so condescending, the least you could do is actually provide some onemanga citations to prove your side of the argument.
c'mon, i have something better to do. maybe next time. ;)


Its alsow said in the manga that Orochimaru was stronger than Jirayia... but no one beleves that now do they??? This "titles" are not stated facts... its just loose talk from random ppl in the manga.
yes, at the time there were all in konoha. they were like naruto and sasuke. a genius and a left over. but after jiraya trained by the frogs and learned the sage arts, he got stronger than orochimaru.

ps: by the way, random talk of random people is the way to leak background information on the characters. or would you call the fact that everyone consider minato as the greatest as loose talk?

[TheChosenOne]

If oro (with no legendary doujutsu) was able to tell the difference between an ink clone and the real sai, I don't see how the strongest doujutsu would ever be fooled by such a simplistic trick.

Sharingan cannot tell the difference between KB and the real ninja (until it's too late), considering Itachi was unable to tell Kakashi and KB apart (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-260/page009.html) when they fought during the rescue Gaara arc. :)


If you have the gall to be so condescending, the least you could do is actually provide some onemanga citations to prove your side of the argument.

Sandaime stated (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-094/page013.html) as being the strongest of all Hokage's (Tsunade was excluded from the statement). :)

[Bucks]

Interview was fake, sorry about that. I'll look for it but since I can't find any more I have to think it is fake.

Belisar, one would think that you are looking for a fight.

[neomaster121]

Sharingan cannot tell the difference between KB and the real ninja (until it's too late), considering Itachi was unable to tell Kakashi and KB apart (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-260/page009.html) when they fought during the rescue Gaara arc. :)



Sandaime stated (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-094/page013.html) as being the strongest of all Hokage's (Tsunade was excluded from the statement). :)

i think thats him saying he was strongest of all before the 4th too cause he was that strong when he was younger and this would have been before the 4th hokage

so it doesn't include the 4th too imo

[TheChosenOne]

i think thats him saying he was strongest of all before the 4th too cause he was that strong when he was younger and this would have been before the 4th hokage

so it doesn't include the 4th too imo

Yes, it does. Iruku states he said to be the strongest of all Hokage's. The Fourth was included in his calculation,reckoning he was part of the history lesson given by Iruka. Plus there is always the databook reference which supplements Iruka's statement. :)

I PM'd a translator for the DB translation and it's as follows.
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii64/ckallungal/116-117-1.jpg


The text you selected is read:
“プロフェッサー〝と崇められる歴代最強の火影
It is translated:
History's strongest Hokage, hailed as the "Professor"
or
The man hailed as "Professor", also the ultimate Hokage in history

[Belisar]

i think thats him saying he was strongest of all before the 4th too cause he was that strong when he was younger and this would have been before the 4th hokage

so it doesn't include the 4th too imo
but iruka said he was the strongest of all hokage at the time the fourth was already dead. so he must consider him. i think he mean their prime. minato must be stronger as the old sandaime.


Sharingan cannot tell the difference between KB and the real ninja (until it's too late), considering Itachi was unable to tell Kakashi and KB apart (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-260/page009.html) when they fought during the rescue Gaara arc. :)
byakugan also not. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/100/05/


Interview was fake, sorry about that. I'll look for it but since I can't find any more I have to think it is fake.

Belisar, one would think that you are looking for a fight.
i do. wanna try? http://www.smilies.4-user.de/include/Brutal/smilie_b_287.gif

[Lynkobi17]

Why are you guys talkin about Dead Hokages when you can't even talk about recent chapters that have just be foretold.
Plus can any one give some predictions? I doubt anyone accept me is capable...lol

[TheChosenOne]

Why are you guys talkin about Dead Hokages when you can't even talk about recent chapters that have just be foretold.
Plus can any one give some predictions? I doubt anyone accept me is capable...lol

Sorry, lol. I predict that Tsunade gets wind of Pain's invasion, while we see some snippets of Naruto's senjutsu training. If the chapter includes any of them I would be happy. I think we might even see the 8-tails and maybe even Madara conversing with Sasuke on his failed mission. :)

[lvarella]

Damn, I had a feeling that KillaBee wouldn't go
Soon Naruto will be left Unconcious with no demon in him, just a dark living chakra, the chakra that Itatchi implanted in him. This will revive Naruto and he will come back to life. I don't know about the eyes or how the black bird chakra will do to him, but I do have this feeling...that he will sacrifice himself and go with Pain after a huge crazy ninja battle!!!

Naruto will never lose the 9 Tails, they will become one. What Itachi gave to Naruto was something to use against Sasuke.

[akatsuki27]

next chapter tsunade hears about the attack and deploys the top ninjas plus the anbu to hold them down...too bad no one outside of kakashi, yamato and gate releasing gai will be able to pin one of the bodies down

the way i see it, madara has to stop pain soon because they dont have the eight-tails...and having naruto near-dead for too long wouldnt be ideal, obviously he could die after a while...plus he isnt even there in konoha

[neomaster121]

Yes, it does. Iruku states he said to be the strongest of all Hokage's. The Fourth was included in his calculation,reckoning he was part of the history lesson given by Iruka. Plus there is always the databook reference which supplements Iruka's statement. :)

I PM'd a translator for the DB translation and it's as follows.
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii64/ckallungal/116-117-1.jpg




he said he WAS the strongest of all

considering he said this when the 3rd was still alive that must means to me that he wasn't including the deceased 4th

prediction well i think naruto will show us some kong fu

[narutokuro]

After reading the manga, who where still believes that Sasuke knew he captured a bushin/kawarami instead of the real 8-tails? 8 tails pwned all you Sas-gay fans boys. LOL.

[nat]

Lol, Madara is going to get pissed off. I just hope he goes to fight Kirabi, that way we can see exactly how strong is Mads. Hachibi is amazingly strong, how can an advanced Sharingan fight it without getting the user's chest open?

Then The Pein issue, I wanna see what Konan can do infront of an entire village. Pein is super strong, She is not. How will she fight? or will she just hide and scout...

@ Lynkobi17,
Prediction on chapter basis is a bit limited, we just expand to predict entire arcs...:p

[Alex_1]

I think that now taht the invasion's taken place, the groundwork's pretty much being set-up for one of the characters - perhaps Sakura - to come into contact with one of Pein's reconnaisance bodies (probably Yahiko Pein). And just before she loses completely, she will be saved by Kakashi or someone... perhaps the team that will come to the village will lend an unsuspecting helping hand when certain character's need it most. This might establish some sort of alliance with Kumogakure against Akatsuki... just seems that this is the way the stories going at the moment because if Pein assaults, they'll have first hand view that they weren't the only ones attacked. I'm looking forward to seeing how this unfolds but something tells me that we'll be looking at this invasion well into the end of November, maybe even December before the holiday break in the story.

Also, I was hoping to find out more about the black piercings in Pein's bodies. They might just be conductors of some sort but who knows...

[Strider's♥Death]

Lol, Madara is going to get pissed off. I just hope he goes to fight Kirabi, that way we can see exactly how strong is Mads. Hachibi is amazingly strong, how can an advanved Sharingan fight it without getting the user's chest open?

Then The Pein issue, I wanna see what Konan can do infront of antire village. Pein is super strong, She is not. How will she fight? or will she just hide adn scout...

@ Lynkobi17,
Prediction on chapter basis is a bit limited, we just expand to predict entire arc...It takes great research and background knowledge....I feel like a scholar

Unfortunately , we wont see madara fight hachibi since madara doesnt even know that hacibi is back where he fought sasuke. But im curious to see what madara is going to say or do.

[nat]

I think that is where Zetsu comes in. They can trace Hachibi. If not, he can use Karin's ability.

[kweci]

Also, I was hoping to find out more about the black piercings in Pein's bodies. They might just be conductors of some sort but who knows...

That would be awesome. then Neji, or his dad, could use their bijillion palm strike techniques and destroy them all :). i'm really hoping pein's invasion will be the opportunity to see the older generation of konoha (the moms and dads) fight alongside their kids.

[Bucks]

That would be awesome. then Neji, or his dad, could use their bijillion palm strike techniques and destroy them all :). i'm really hoping pein's invasion will be the opportunity to see the older generation of konoha (the moms and dads) fight alongside their kids.

That is awesome, maybe Sandaime, Jiraiya and Minato can come back to life to and have a 3 way battle. Then this who is the stronger thing wouldn't come up anymore.


i do. wanna try?

Sure why not.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I think Konan will save the day in 3 or 4 chapters. By then I suspect that she would find out that Naruto isn't there and Pain will just go back home and learn of Sasuke's failure.

[Tsukisama]

Please stop discussing who was the strongest Hokage in this thread as it is off-topic. Although the manga is rather clear about the issue (Sandaime = strongest Hokage ever , Yondaime = [U]greatest shinobi), if you would like to discuss this topic further, do it in another thread like the Hangout thread or one of the threads in Toshokan. Further posts on the matter will be deleted.

[Lynkobi17]

Naruto will never lose the 9 Tails, they will become one. What Itachi gave to Naruto was something to use against Sasuke.How do you know? Have you forgotten that Itachi has been around the Akatsuki for some time now? Itachi has built some kind of faith in Naruto each time he asks him questions about Sasuke. He would smile in satisfaction in the words Naruto replies with. What Itachi gave to naruto could be a useful tool for any situation. I am not saying you are wrong, what i'm saying is that this could be a possibility that may help Naruto in facing Pein.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/263/02/
In this page, Itachi is asked what type of guy is he...
And as you see, he keeps quite (showing that he doesn't want him to die since it will lead to something unworthy) but then - http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/263/03/ the next chapter, it looked like he could tell the future using his eye technique. Could this mean that he knows that Naruto will face Pein and did what he did to Naruto so that Naruto would less likely to fail when facing Pein or something? All i'm saying is that itachi was able to encounter the decription of Naruto so perfectly that it felt quite logical that he can describe the future in a through and clear info.


So...naruto is stronger than all konoha put together?

Cool theory on what itachi gave him. But i don't know naruto kiuby-less is like cofee with no sugar.....me no like it!!

IDK, I still think kiuby-naruto will play a major role in the end. kiuby naruto vs akatuski's doomsday jutsu or bijuu army.

All I'm sayin is that Naruto is less likely to blow up.....unlike the village, it is quite vulnarable. When I say village, I'm not saying the Ninjas in the village...
I'm saing the physical village. The state and condition on how it will collapse. The home Konoha villagers live in. If Naruto or Tsunde, or any other capable ninja wants to protect their founding resources, they would have to either drag Pein out of the village, or give up Naruto as a sacrifice. Since Konoha was able to do so with the Itachi/Uchiha Clan, then I don't see this quite difficult.

It is not about naruto having the power to take down Pein. It is about how much resources Pein has over Konoha. Pein now has the opportunity to scam, bribe, or even make him give up by saying to Naruto, "If you give up, your precious little village will be sparred an early downfall."
And naruto, seeing the village and people in it in shock and pain, he will decide to go with Pein feeling that it was the right thing or the only thing to do.



All noble and stuff but unlikely. Mainly because Naruto doesn't give up. He would more than likely send a shadow clone than himself. (That would be hilarious).
It seems you are ignorant when it comes to understanding naruto or pein.
Naruto will never, and I mean never take protecting Konoha as a game.
knowing Naruto, and his dead father, he would most definably protect the village.

As for Pein, his rinnagun will be able to identify if it were a shadow clone or not....case closed...lol

[lvarella]

That would be awesome. then Neji, or his dad, could use their bijillion palm strike techniques and destroy them all

I was saying this a few post ago, I think it's time to Byakugan to shine. Kishi introduced a Byakugan guy and will show the real power of these eyes. Byakugan won't be enough to kill the Bodies but will have a important role in this fight.

[Quetz]

All these arguments hinge on the assumption that naruto will return in time to see pain in konoha. He's been in the mountains for days, and has no knowledge of any impending attack on konoha. With no reason to rush things, he'll probably stay there until he's 1) 100% mastered the sage mode jutsu's, and 2)perfected "that" jutsu, IMO.

As for the Byakugan, it would be pretty sick if they could see the chakra link between the six bodies, and maybe even another link between them leading off into the distance towards the real pain's body. If that were the case, they'd only have to capture one pain alive (LOL) but incapacitated (LOLOL) in order to trace down the real pain's body.

[nat]

That is awesome, maybe Sandaime, Jiraiya and Minato can come back to life to and have a 3 way battle. Then this who is the stronger thing wouldn't come up anymore.



Sure why not.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I think Konan will save the day in 3 or 4 chapters. By then I suspect that she would find out that Naruto isn't there and Pain will just go back home and learn of Sasuke's failure.



Your wisdom knows no bounds.....Maybe Madra will come soon...
:p

seriously, I think Madara has to show his face in Konoha sooner or later. Maybe after Pein is done with them, he will go. Since Pein according to plot reasons can't catch Naruto. And Sasuke failed. Madara has to take things in his own hands...(forgive me if the post doesn't make any sense)

[laughing@you]

I think that is where Zetsu comes in. They can trace Hachibi. If not, he can use Karin's ability.

If they find hachibi is gonna be a miracle!!!

before they could isolate hachibi to a country, now his out!!!

Only kishi knows where his going!!

Now madara is gonna doubt sasuke. I doubt sasuke allowed the hachibi to escape like that, even though he has a new power, he still akatsuki to accomplish his goal.

[lvarella]

As for the Byakugan, it would be pretty sick if they could see the chakra link between the six bodies, and maybe even another link between them leading off into the distance towards the real pain's body. If that were the case, they'd only have to capture one pain alive (LOL) but incapacitated (LOLOL) in order to trace down the real pain's body.

I don't think it will be pretty sick if they could see the chakra coming into the bodies, that's the Byakugan Power. I agree with you that they won't be able to track the real body due to the range of Byakugan.
And Pain for sure can stop the chakra in the bodies when he wishes.

[llamapie]

I don't think it will be pretty sick if they could see the chakra coming into the bodies, that's the Byakugan Power. I agree with you that they won't be able to track the real body due to the range of Byakugan.
And Pain for sure can stop the chakra in the bodies when he wishes.

We got the explaination for why each pain has specific abilities. Thats about it though. There is much to be explained. Like why all the bodies are ninjas Jiraiya has encountered in the past. There is a missing link that has to be filled in. Perhaps Nagato was following Jiraiya during his initial journey and stole the bodies of the ninja J-man encountered. >~< Rinegan in itself doesn't seem to grant an advantage overall, seems like so far nothing specifically impressive aside from linked vision has been demonstrated by his eyes. The ability to detect a barrier is more like Byakugan than anything as well. We don't know if this multiple body control is a rinnegan ability or something of the shinobi.

You guys have to recount earlier on in the story the jutsu we do know he is able to use.

1) Making insanely accurate clones out of other shinobi (this seems to be more appropriate a link to the rinnegan.) IE: Kisame and Itachi.

2) His trap where it made exact clones of the fighters to fight themselves on the sasori arc.

3) Deva Pain's water barrier.

And when I say his eyes pose nothing impressive yet I just think he hasn't used their potential in a fight yet. All the techniques he used against Jiraiya are ones that didn't require his eyes.

Byakugan has the ability of near 360 degree vision and pinpoint things normal eys are incapable of/
Sharingan has the ability to predict and detect chakra as well as evolve into eye techniques that are beyond this world.

[segua]

All these arguments hinge on the assumption that naruto will return in time to see pain in konoha. He's been in the mountains for days, and has no knowledge of any impending attack on konoha. With no reason to rush things, he'll probably stay there until he's 1) 100% mastered the sage mode jutsu's, and 2)perfected "that" jutsu, IMO.

As for the Byakugan, it would be pretty sick if they could see the chakra link between the six bodies, and maybe even another link between them leading off into the distance towards the real pain's body. If that were the case, they'd only have to capture one pain alive (LOL) but incapacitated (LOLOL) in order to trace down the real pain's body.

Don't forget Fusako or Fusaku is going to teach Naruto how to utilized sage chakra into a fighting form or otherwise known as senjutsu. This final senjutsu training for Naruto is going to take some time.

I want to see Rinnegan v Byakugan. Whose vision is better?!

As for those black objects embedded in Pein, I wonder if those act similarly like receivers. Chakra receivers that is.

[matsemann08]

As for those black objects embedded in Pein, I wonder if those act similarly like receivers. Chakra receivers that is.

I've been thinking for some time that those piercings has to do something important, Shizune removed those piercings from the dead Pain (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/418/14/) in the last chapter, and as we saw when Jiraiya was stabbed by a black spear (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/03/) (Made by the same substance as those piercings) he lost control of his chakra, that maybe the real Pains control chakra reacting with Jiraiyas.
I bet Shizune will discover something wierd about those piercings, what if a Hyuuga (Hinata) would discover something when looking at them?

[Alexis]

I always thought that black material was the key to how the Pain bodies are linked with the Rinnegan. The summons also had Rinnegan, and those black piercings. I can't imagine why he would pierce the summons just for fun. Interesting though is that it seemed like Shizune had a hard time cutting the material. It looked like her saws were broken. Yet Pain seemed to control that material making it extend from his arms.

@matsemann08
Hahaha, I love your sig.

[Kshunsui]

That metal, neutralizes the control of your own chakra allowing Pein to take control over your Body, remember when Jiraiya was stabbed, we can see the rinnegan eyes the moment he said he can't control his Chakra, it will be funny if Pein is defeated with a magnet lol

[blubli]

Reading through the threads I've found a few recurring statments that I would like to discuss

1. Tsunade not being strong enough to fight Pain.

I believe that Tsunade isn't a Sanin and current Hokage for her healing jutsu. As we've seen through her teachings to Sakura, she's very fast, trained in avoiding blows, and carries a lethal punch. The only fight that we've seen her in action has been the one with Orochimaru and Kabuto, but she was afraid of blood at the time, which probably cramped her fighting style a bit; but even then she showed amazing skills that attack the central nervous system. I don't think she has what it takes to defeat Pain, but she can definatly handle at least one body.

2. People keep talking about Pain's battle and predicting outcomes, but I fond that there hasn't been enough discussion on the fact that Pain's current strategy is 3 bodies creating a diversion and 3 + Konan on reconnaissance. The diversionists are not going to prioritize destruction over staying alive. They only have to worry about keeping attention away from those on reconnaissance. Since no one in Konoha actually knows how many intruders there are, there's no way Pain's going to throw that advantage away. While everyone's focussion on Summon, Aminal, and Demon Pain, the others can meander discretly as they please. There's even the possibility of Tsunade getting taken by suprise in her office.

3. Many people keep stating how Kohona's only got a few shinobi that can ward off Pain. Although Kakashi, Guy, etc are the only super strong shinobi left, Kohona's power lies in the teamwork of many less abled shinobi. as long as they fight wisely, there's a good chance that 3-4 shinobi working together could take on one of the bodies

Finally, I wish I could say something about what is behine the whole Pain mystery, but I can't. Hopefully Kishi wil enlighten us soon!

[laughing@you]

That metal, neutralizes the control of your own chakra allowing Pein to take control over your Body, remember when Jiraiya was stabbed, we can see the rinnegan eyes the moment he said he can't control his Chakra, it will be funny if Pein is defeated with a magnet lol

LMAO!!!!!!!

jajajaja.....that would be awesome!!!!!!!!

ja a magnet!!!!

Passes near a microwave while its on and starts convulsing!!!

Pein...i didn't know konoha had such powerful technology!!

LMAO.....

[Alex_1]

That would be awesome. then Neji, or his dad, could use their bijillion palm strike techniques and destroy them all :). i'm really hoping pein's invasion will be the opportunity to see the older generation of konoha (the moms and dads) fight alongside their kids.

I agree. that would be fantastic to see - especially since it looked like a Hyuga member was there already (though we don't know who it was - I don't think it was Neji or his uncle but I guess we can't really tell for certain right now.

I do think that the guy trying to break down the ninja via genjutsu was Ino's father (though I'm sure that was mentioned earlier). I also imagine that Shikamaru's father is pretty friggin' badass too. :D But Hyuga Sr. is definitely one I've wanted to see for a while. Did a fatal blow in like 2 seconds.

[segua]

a
Reading through the threads I've found a few recurring statments that I would like to discuss

1. Tsunade not being strong enough to fight Pain.

I believe that Tsunade isn't a Sanin and current Hokage for her healing jutsu. As we've seen through her teachings to Sakura, she's very fast, trained in avoiding blows, and carries a lethal punch. The only fight that we've seen her in action has been the one with Orochimaru and Kabuto, but she was afraid of blood at the time, which probably cramped her fighting style a bit; but even then she showed amazing skills that attack the central nervous system. I don't think she has what it takes to defeat Pain, but she can definatly handle at least one body.

2. People keep talking about Pain's battle and predicting outcomes, but I fond that there hasn't been enough discussion on the fact that Pain's current strategy is 3 bodies creating a diversion and 3 + Konan on reconnaissance. The diversionists are not going to prioritize destruction over staying alive. They only have to worry about keeping attention away from those on reconnaissance. Since no one in Konoha actually knows how many intruders there are, there's no way Pain's going to throw that advantage away. While everyone's focussion on Summon, Aminal, and Demon Pain, the others can meander discretly as they please. There's even the possibility of Tsunade getting taken by suprise in her office.

3. Many people keep stating how Kohona's only got a few shinobi that can ward off Pain. Although Kakashi, Guy, etc are the only super strong shinobi left, Kohona's power lies in the teamwork of many less abled shinobi. as long as they fight wisely, there's a good chance that 3-4 shinobi working together could take on one of the bodies

Finally, I wish I could say something about what is behine the whole Pain mystery, but I can't. Hopefully Kishi wil enlighten us soon!

Pein isn't in Konoha to destroy Konoha but quickly nab or at the very least gain insightful information about Naruto. Now it were Hidan and Kakuzu, Konoha might be in danger of being leveled. Particularlly by Hidan. Also, six Pein plus one Konan versus Konoha, a military organization doesn't bold well even for Pein and Konan. Best thing to do is distract Konoha while one team looks for what they want. Aftward a hasty retreat is in order.


LMAO!!!!!!!

jajajaja.....that would be awesome!!!!!!!!

ja a magnet!!!!

Passes near a microwave while its on and starts convulsing!!!

Pein...i didn't know konoha had such powerful technology!!

LMAO.....

That's brilliant. LMAO

[Alexis]

Reading through the threads I've found a few recurring statments that I would like to discuss

1. Tsunade not being strong enough to fight Pain.

I believe that Tsunade isn't a Sanin and current Hokage for her healing jutsu. As we've seen through her teachings to Sakura, she's very fast, trained in avoiding blows, and carries a lethal punch. The only fight that we've seen her in action has been the one with Orochimaru and Kabuto, but she was afraid of blood at the time, which probably cramped her fighting style a bit; but even then she showed amazing skills that attack the central nervous system. I don't think she has what it takes to defeat Pain, but she can definatly handle at least one body.
I agree, because defeating Pain means figuring out his secret. And for all we know Tsunade might also have her own "mode" like Jiraya and Orochimaru.


2. People keep talking about Pain's battle and predicting outcomes, but I fond that there hasn't been enough discussion on the fact that Pain's current strategy is 3 bodies creating a diversion and 3 + Konan on reconnaissance. The diversionists are not going to prioritize destruction over staying alive. They only have to worry about keeping attention away from those on reconnaissance. Since no one in Konoha actually knows how many intruders there are, there's no way Pain's going to throw that advantage away. While everyone's focussion on Summon, Aminal, and Demon Pain, the others can meander discretly as they please. There's even the possibility of Tsunade getting taken by suprise in her office.
There has been some discussion on that. I remember Reenie bringing it up earlier. Pain's goal is obviously to capture Naruto, not destroy Konoha. Although he's already creating enough destruction as it is. Imagine if he was trying.


3. Many people keep stating how Kohona's only got a few shinobi that can ward off Pain. Although Kakashi, Guy, etc are the only super strong shinobi left, Kohona's power lies in the teamwork of many less abled shinobi. as long as they fight wisely, there's a good chance that 3-4 shinobi working together could take on one of the bodies
Well keep in mind that Orochimaru's single summon cause Konoha major problems, until Jiraya showed up. And Pain can summon a lot. Question is if Konoha have more people other than Tsunade who can summon beasts on the level of those that Pain can summon.
And Pain also destroyed the Rain village by himself. I don't think 3 - 4 Konoha grunts would be able to do much against a Pain body. Mainly because they probably will stay together. And also because even if they did, he can seemingly revive.

[Alex_1]

You guys have to recount earlier on in the story the jutsu we do know he is able to use.

1) Making insanely accurate clones out of other shinobi (this seems to be more appropriate a link to the rinnegan.) IE: Kisame and Itachi.

2) His trap where it made exact clones of the fighters to fight themselves on the sasori arc.

3) Deva Pain's water barrier.


I don't know why nobody, myself included, mentions this. We knew that Pein had a unique ability to utilize other bodies long before we got to the Jiraiya encounter. He could copy them up to 30% of their chakra (I wonder if that is an arbitrary number by the author or if it is more significant) and it seemed like even the Kekkei Genkai - but only up to a certain level. Itachi stated that he 'couldn't' use the MS although that can be read several different ways.

And here we have 6 bodies, all representing another split, and different realms. All connected because they have orange hair, the rinnegan and black piercings. Although we haven't seen any of them with the black blades they used against Jiraiya.

[gold349]

Reading through the threads I've found a few recurring statments that I would like to discuss

1. Tsunade not being strong enough to fight Pain.

I believe that Tsunade isn't a Sanin and current Hokage for her healing jutsu. As we've seen through her teachings to Sakura, she's very fast, trained in avoiding blows, and carries a lethal punch. The only fight that we've seen her in action has been the one with Orochimaru and Kabuto, but she was afraid of blood at the time, which probably cramped her fighting style a bit; but even then she showed amazing skills that attack the central nervous system. I don't think she has what it takes to defeat Pain, but she can definatly handle at least one body.

2. People keep talking about Pain's battle and predicting outcomes, but I fond that there hasn't been enough discussion on the fact that Pain's current strategy is 3 bodies creating a diversion and 3 + Konan on reconnaissance. The diversionists are not going to prioritize destruction over staying alive. They only have to worry about keeping attention away from those on reconnaissance. Since no one in Konoha actually knows how many intruders there are, there's no way Pain's going to throw that advantage away. While everyone's focussion on Summon, Aminal, and Demon Pain, the others can meander discretly as they please. There's even the possibility of Tsunade getting taken by suprise in her office.

3. Many people keep stating how Kohona's only got a few shinobi that can ward off Pain. Although Kakashi, Guy, etc are the only super strong shinobi left, Kohona's power lies in the teamwork of many less abled shinobi. as long as they fight wisely, there's a good chance that 3-4 shinobi working together could take on one of the bodies

Finally, I wish I could say something about what is behine the whole Pain mystery, but I can't. Hopefully Kishi wil enlighten us soon!


I for one think that Tsunade can stand up to Pain, she is the only one Konoha who IMO could/can/should be able to defeat him but I know its written for Naruto so she may not be favoured for that. She is aware of the things that Jiraiya wasn't, she will have to work out the tricks he uses but she knows their is 6 of them which is a start. She knows many things from Fuka report which leads me to believe she can do a better job than Jiraiya if faced with Pain but for story it won't be allowed.

Konoha is capable of defending it self, agreed that konoha has many shinobi that can take out Pains bodies working in a team and it also has many that would cause him problems but I think apart from Tsunade (I'll push kakashi in too) there isn't many who would take on Pain (collective) by them self and survive fight.

[laughing@you]

I for one think that Tsunade can stand up to Pain, she is the only one Konoha who IMO could/can/should be able to defeat him but I know its written for Naruto so she may not be favoured for that. She is aware of the things that Jiraiya wasn't, she will have to work out the tricks he uses but she knows their is 6 of them which is a start. She knows many things from Fuka report which leads me to believe she can do a better job than Jiraiya if faced with Pain but for story it won't be allowed.

Konoha is capable of defending it self, agreed that konoha has many shinobi that can take out Pains bodies working in a team and it also has many that would cause him problems but I think apart from Tsunade (I'll push kakashi in too) there isn't many who would take on Pain (collective) by them self and survive fight.

Agreed.

Couldn't have said it better!!!

Thats why I think if pein stays to fight in konoha even though konoha will incurr in losses, pein should lose. His reckless actions to jump into a village fighting, hints that he can afford to lose those bodies. As long as he gets the info he was looking for.

Or his so confident he can't lose that he just went in.

[Rosebunse]

Well if it transferring doujutsu from different clansmen work between Uchiha and Sharigan, why not others right? Recall how the Lightning tried to obtain the secrets of the byakugan by first trying to kidnap Hinata and then trying to obtain the body of Hiashi? So it seems that these doujutsu could be learned and or transferred to a recipient person whose body could tolerate the new body part.

But for a person to maximize or even reach the full potential of the doujutsu, that person has to have the same blood as in the Uchiha's case with the supposedly termed eternal mangekyou sharigan (EMS).

But you know, if Nagato was so strong, why wasn't it Nagato who was the only survivor? Yet it was Konan. We just got to wait until more information comes out.

I totally agree with the first part. This could help to explain just what the Hyuga CS do. They obviously not only destroy the brain, but quite possibly the eyes as well, leaving them useless.

[Raizen]

I agree, because defeating Pain means figuring out his secret. And for all we know Tsunade might also have her own "mode" like Jiraya and Orochimaru.


There has been some discussion on that. I remember Reenie bringing it up earlier. Pain's goal is obviously to capture Naruto, not destroy Konoha. Although he's already creating enough destruction as it is. Imagine if he was trying.


Well keep in mind that Orochimaru's single summon cause Konoha major problems, until Jiraya showed up. And Pain can summon a lot. Question is if Konoha have more people other than Tsunade who can summon beasts on the level of those that Pain can summon.
And Pain also destroyed the Rain village by himself. I don't think 3 - 4 Konoha grunts would be able to do much against a Pain body. Mainly because they probably will stay together. And also because even if they did, he can seemingly revive.
Tsunade definitely is being underestimated. She is a sannin who has fought in countless battles and wars.
Not only that she has the power to heal and the crucial info to defeat pein that J-man sacrificed his life to get.

As for pein, while he is a powerhouse, i don't think he can take on the whole leaf village. There are countless powerful ninjas in the leaf. And I don't think he destroyed the rain village. He just fought hanzou then killed his family. He didn't destroy the village like what u said

[pranabowjake]

I've been thinking for some time that those piercings has to do something important, Shizune removed those piercings from the dead Pain (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/418/14/) in the last chapter, and as we saw when Jiraiya was stabbed by a black spear (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/03/) (Made by the same substance as those piercings) he lost control of his chakra, that maybe the real Pains control chakra reacting with Jiraiyas.
I bet Shizune will discover something wierd about those piercings, what if a Hyuuga (Hinata) would discover something when looking at them?

i quoted you just because i wanted to say i love your sig

as far as this last chapter i still think it showed how the power of the rinningan is at the very least like the father of both byakugan and sharingan. as in, it has a good vision filed, almost no blind spots and can see chakara. for the next chapter, i think we will see a little bit from cloud, alilttle bit from naruto, alittle bit from bee but most of the chapter will focus on pein's search with alittle bit on pein's distraction

[Sunburn74]

whats also interesting about the piercings is some of them run through critical organs. Makes you wonder what would happen if you stabbed pain in the chest with a sword or something. Would it actually kill him, when he has a piercing running parallel to your stab that goes equally deep ? :)

This is one of my favorites (even though its on a summon)
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/12/

Like WTF? Piercing through the brain?

[Jye24_Nindo]

Ok here it is.

Naruto and Naruto alone will be the one to redeem Jiraiya. Do not forget this. He pledged that he would. So he will defeat Pein. This must be taken as empirical fact.

HOWEVER, Nagato is still in the Rain village somewhere. And remember he is the one who mastered all elemental jutsus. He is truly powerful. So Madara and Nagato will still go about their plans, Pein will just have to get new bodies.

After Konoha recouperates from Pein's attack Sasuke will show up for his revenge and Sasuke and Naruto will fight. Naruto is gonna use whatever Itachi gave him. Emo Sasuke is going to see the error of his ways.

This basically sets up Naruto and Sasuke vs. Nagato and Madara. Naruto and Sasuke will combine their ultimate wind and fire jutsus. It'll translate roughly to firestorm jutsu. They save the world. Naruto manga ends. Konohamaru gets a spin-off manga in which KabutOrochi will be the villain and Naruto is Hokage.

I have spoken!

[pranabowjake]

I agree, because defeating Pain means figuring out his secret. And for all we know Tsunade might also have her own "mode" like Jiraya and Orochimaru.


There has been some discussion on that. I remember Reenie bringing it up earlier. Pain's goal is obviously to capture Naruto, not destroy Konoha. Although he's already creating enough destruction as it is. Imagine if he was trying.


Well keep in mind that Orochimaru's single summon cause Konoha major problems, until Jiraya showed up. And Pain can summon a lot. Question is if Konoha have more people other than Tsunade who can summon beasts on the level of those that Pain can summon.
And Pain also destroyed the Rain village by himself. I don't think 3 - 4 Konoha grunts would be able to do much against a Pain body. Mainly because they probably will stay together. And also because even if they did, he can seemingly revive.


on your first point, we already know what tsunade's own mode is. her invincibility, where she wont die because of uber regeneration. she's already super fast and super strong, other than that what else would she need?

[segua]

Agreed.

Couldn't have said it better!!!

Thats why I think if pein stays to fight in konoha even though konoha will incurr in losses, pein should lose. His reckless actions to jump into a village fighting, hints that he can afford to lose those bodies. As long as he gets the info he was looking for.

Or his so confident he can't lose that he just went in.

Pein is a GOD! Don't you forget that. He can't lose and Konan guarantees it though everytime she does, Madara is left speechless or something. I think Madara is trying to find some weakness in the argument to make an intelligent retort.

I would love to see someone tell Konan, "Where is your god now?!" after Pein loses.

Well, if Konoha is successful in thwarted Pein, it's going to be a big lose for both sides. For Pein, Pein is going to lose a couple bodies in the process. If Konoha loses another Hokage, that would be really too soon wouldn't it? Tsunade would only be Hokage for 3-4 years.

[laughing@you]

whats also interesting about the piercings is some of them run through critical organs. Makes you wonder what would happen if you stabbed pain in the chest with a sword or something. Would it actually kill him, when he has a piercing running parallel to your stab that goes equally deep ? :)

This is one of my favorites (even though its on a summon)
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/12/

Like WTF? Piercing through the brain?

I think that apart from the normal piercings on the face the other ones could battle wounds. It could be how the healer keeps the bodies working.

[Alexis]

As for pein, while he is a powerhouse, i don't think he can take on the whole leaf village. There are countless powerful ninjas in the leaf.
Well they seemed to have a lot of trouble dealing with Orochimaru's snake though, until Jiraya arrived.


And I don't think he destroyed the rain village. He just fought hanzou then killed his family. He didn't destroy the village like what u said

http://b.imagehost.org/0389/Naruto_369_09.jpg
http://b.imagehost.org/0152/Naruto_369_14.jpg
Well the Shinobi said that he destroyed Amagakure by himself. And besides killing Hanzou, what about the rest of the soldiers? If someone defeats the Hokage in Konoha, that doesn't mean that everyone surrenders. They keep fighting.


on your first point, we already know what tsunade's own mode is. her invincibility, where she wont die because of uber regeneration. she's already super fast and super strong, other than that what else would she need?
Well Jiraya's Hermit mode and Orochimaru's Hydra jutsu were transformations. Tsunade's healing jutsu just stores up a lot of chakra in her seal to be used for quick healing. I don't know how many times she can use it, or if she needs to store up chakra from before the fight. But in Jiraya and Orochimaru's case, their special modes were revealed much later in the story.

[laughing@you]

Pein is a GOD! Don't you forget that. He can't lose and Konan guarantees it though everytime she does, Madara is left speechless or something. I think Madara is trying to find some weakness in the argument to make an intelligent retort.

I would love to see someone tell Konan, "Where is your god now?!" after Pein loses.

Well, if Konoha is successful in thwarted Pein, it's going to be a big lose for both sides. For Pein, Pein is going to lose a couple bodies in the process. If Konoha loses another Hokage, that would be really too soon wouldn't it? Tsunade would only be Hokage for 3-4 years.

So he says.....but thats typical talk for a villain that has never lost.

I think konan has a unique ability that allows her to escape. Cuz i don't know why pein bring her along. Or risk losing her.

And remember even if pein loses it doesn't mean his out. It could work against konoha cuz they might think his no longer a threat when his actually re-stocking.

[TheChosenOne]

Well, if Konoha is successful in thwarted Pein, it's going to be a big lose for both sides. For Pein, Pein is going to lose a couple bodies in the process. If Konoha loses another Hokage, that would be really too soon wouldn't it? Tsunade would only be Hokage for 3-4 years.

Didn't Kishi state that Sakura needs to mature or was it solely Naruto. Tsunade's death could help her grow up and see the world as harsh, and make her focus on what she needs to do. As for Tsunade's reign as Hokage, at least it was longer than Yondaime, who roughly reigned for a year. :)

[TheChosenOne]

Well Jiraya's Hermit mode and Orochimaru's Hydra jutsu were transformations. But in Jiraya and Orochimaru's case, their special modes were revealed much later in the story.

I think you maybe right about Tsunde having some sort of "Slug Mode", we can use Pain's statement (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/376/01/) as means to adumbrate that she certainly has some sort of transformation like her Sannin counterparts. :)

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

Didn't Kishi state that Sakura needs to mature or was it solely Naruto. Tsunade's death could help her grow up and see the world as harsh, and make her focus on what she needs to do. As for Tsunade's reign as Hokage, at least it was longer than Yondaime, who roughly reigned for a year. :)

Where did it state that Yondaime was Hokage for a year?

[David Gill]

I think Naruto after his training will be a match for Pain. The reason being because i just read the Jiraiya vs Pain fight again and Ma and Pa frog keep stressing that Jiraiya is a poor user of hermit mode, which means he can't use it perfectly. Naruto has already done that, he has perfected his chakra control and has Hermit mode under control. All he is doing now is adding some fighting techniques to compliment his new power.
Like some posters i truly belive that Naruto will return to Konoha when Sasuke returns too. And we might end up seeing Sasuke vs Naruto sooner than we expect. Naruto vs Pain will wait as it's Hero vs the biggest villain. However i just don't see how madara fits into all of this. I think that Madara cannot and will not be defeated by Sasuke and i also think that Naruto has nothing doing with Madara. In my opinion ( just an opinion! ) Madara will fight a resseructed Minato.

[Tortill]

i was just reading a couple of posts here and begun to think ( somone has probably said it befor) but can you guys realy imagin tsunade in slugmode? i mean slow and slimey and witj eyes on a couple of strings on top of her head?:S :P hehe

[◆ T.D.A ◆]

I think you maybe right about Tsunde having some sort of "Slug Mode", we can use Pain's statement (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/376/01/) as means to adumbrate that she certainly has some sort of transformation like her Sannin counterparts. :)

She already has a transformation technique, which is that she stays young, looking like she's 20.

[David Gill]

I think Naruto after his training will be a match for Pain. The reason being because i just read the Jiraiya vs Pain fight again and Ma and Pa frog keep stressing that Jiraiya is a poor user of hermit mode, which means he can't use it perfectly. Naruto has already done that, he has perfected his chakra control and has Hermit mode under control. All he is doing now is adding some fighting techniques to compliment his new power.
Like some posters i truly belive that Naruto will return to Konoha when Sasuke returns too. And we might end up seeing Sasuke vs Naruto sooner than we expect. Naruto vs Pain will wait as it's Hero vs the biggest villain. However i just don't see how madara fits into all of this. I think that Madara cannot and will not be defeated by Sasuke and i also think that Naruto has nothing doing with Madara. In my opinion ( just an opinion! ) Madara will fight a resseructed Minato.:(

[laughing@you]

i was just reading a couple of posts here and begun to think ( somone has probably said it befor) but can you guys realy imagin tsunade in slugmode? i mean slow and slimey and witj eyes on a couple of strings on top of her head?:S :P hehe

lol.......ah...no!!!!:p

Her big attributes cannot be degraded. Not even pein "the god" can't mess with those!!!

[Tortill]

lol.......ah...no!!!!:p

Her big attributes cannot be degraded. Not even pein "the god" can't mess with those!!!


yeah that's true they are som big atributees that whould look kind of sick on a slug :P but about the transformation of here being that she is young, orochimaru was young too :P but he had that snakes and he hadd snakes, and jiraya had the frog look so it whould actualy make sense that she has somthing like that, i just pray to kishi that she dosen't

[chess4]

This is the abilities of the six paths of Pain in the Anime/Manga "Reborn!"

* The first realm, the "Realm of Hell", which grants him the power to create illusions.
* Second ("二" represents the number two) is the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, which grants him the power to use the skills of others; when he controls a person's body, he is able to perfectly perform their signature attacks.
* Third ("三" is three) is the Realm of Animals, which grants him the power to summon and control deadly animals.
* Fourth ("四" is four) is the Realm of Asura, which increases his battle skills; when using this skill, a dark flame surrounds his right eye.
* Fifth ("五" is five) is the Realm of Humans, which increases his battle aura, thus his strength; it is considered to be the most dangerous of the Six Realms; when Mukuro first enters the realm, he physically pierces his right eye, and a type of aura, resembling the Dying Will Flame, then surrounds Mukuro's entire body, but unlike the Dying Will Flame, Mukuro's aura, in itself, poses no danger, as it just represents Mukuro's fighting spirit.
* Sixth ("六" is six) is the Realm of Heaven, which grants him the power to control others.


you have some good points. pain is tough and even if the entire anbu black ops jumped on his six bodies, with what i have seen from the anbu so far , they would not stand a chance.

,aybe we finally get to see root a little bit

[segua]

I wonder how much more chakra will Tsunade have if she turned off her 20's-look-no-jutsu? Tsunade might freak some people out but she might be able to execute more jutsu. I suppose that is going into slug mode.
[hr]

Sir, you are Evil!!

Best quote of that cover of yours: "How Jiraya DID me"




Woh, what brought you to that conclusion/assuption dude, I'm curious.


I'm sorry. Would you prefer to see a topless Gai on the cover of Men's Health?

[chess4]

i hope we get to see some of the hyuaga clan get their shine on in this chapter.

i cant wait to see how kishi develops hinata and naruto's relationship


pain and the rinnegan are devestatingly powerful. just from what we have seen so far from him he has 7 summons,all the jutsu j man taught him, he can control up to 6 bodies at a time, and a host of other jutsus, and i think thats just the tip of the iceberg with him. if naruto shows up in the village without pa frog he will definitely be a non-factor.

[pranabowjake]

So he says.....but thats typical talk for a villain that has never lost.

I think konan has a unique ability that allows her to escape. Cuz i don't know why pein bring her along. Or risk losing her.

And remember even if pein loses it doesn't mean his out. It could work against konoha cuz they might think his no longer a threat when his actually re-stocking.

nagato can probably summon them all back to rain once he gets the info/naruto or whatever he needs
[hr]

i was just reading a couple of posts here and begun to think ( somone has probably said it befor) but can you guys realy imagin tsunade in slugmode? i mean slow and slimey and witj eyes on a couple of strings on top of her head?:S :P hehe

why would she have a slug mode? she has invincibility mode

[chess4]

i think killerbee will end up being sasuke's sensei. i always thought sasuke would get the 8 tails and you know madara will come after the 8 tails with a vengeance.

[laughing@you]

nagato can probably summon them all back to rain once he gets the info/naruto or whatever he needs

I don't think he can do that. he would have done that with the body jiraiya captured.

Meaning we get from this this one of the following (or both):

1) the bodies have to be alive in order to summon.

2) Only the summoner can perform summons.

But I wonder why the restrictions?

[pranabowjake]

I don't think he can do that. he would have done that with the body jiraiya captured.

Meaning we get from this this one of the following (or both):

1) the bodies have to be alive in order to summon.

2) Only the summoner can perform summons.

But I wonder why the restrictions?

can naruto summon a dead frog? or could the frogs summon a dead j-man? i think the summons have to be atleast some what alive. because the frogs could summon naruto but didnt recover j-man's body

[blubli]

nagato can probably summon them all back to rain once he gets the info/naruto or whatever he needs
<hr noshade size="1">


why would she have a slug mode? she has invincibility mode


She's not invincible; she has a seal that gathers chakra over a long period of time that allows her to regenerate ONCE during a battle. She also has normal healing tachniques, that makes her hard to kill, but by no means invincible...

[Frostal]

i think killerbee will end up being sasuke's sensei. i always thought sasuke would get the 8 tails and you know madara will come after the 8 tails with a vengeance.
ok, talk about taking a leap in the dark :eyeroll

the chances of this happening are 10000000000000000000000000000 to 1

[gold349]

you have some good points. pain is tough and even if the entire anbu black ops jumped on his six bodies, with what i have seen from the anbu so far , they would not stand a chance.

,aybe we finally get to see root a little bit


I having a feeling that ROOT will come live here, Danzou might even try win power with the members he has left in all the turmoil. If he waits it out and hides, Sasuke is coming unknown to him which could work in his favour...unintentionally of cause, if Sasuke does kill the elders (danzou manages to escape/hide) then Danzou has no opposition apart Tsunade but if Pain injures/kills her then control could fall into Danzou lap with out doing anything.:)

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

I think Naruto after his training will be a match for Pain. The reason being because i just read the Jiraiya vs Pain fight again and Ma and Pa frog keep stressing that Jiraiya is a poor user of hermit mode, which means he can't use it perfectly. Naruto has already done that, he has perfected his chakra control and has Hermit mode under control. All he is doing now is adding some fighting techniques to compliment his new power.
Like some posters i truly belive that Naruto will return to Konoha when Sasuke returns too. And we might end up seeing Sasuke vs Naruto sooner than we expect. Naruto vs Pain will wait as it's Hero vs the biggest villain. However i just don't see how madara fits into all of this. I think that Madara cannot and will not be defeated by Sasuke and i also think that Naruto has nothing doing with Madara. In my opinion ( just an opinion! ) Madara will fight a resseructed Minato.:(

I think Naruto after his training will be somewhat ready to face Pein but i think he will need a little more battle experenice, even though i think experience is hugely overrated by many posters, mainly to test out his senjutsu in battle situation. Like i have said before all you need to defeat Pein is to be Jiraiya level(easier said than done) and know his secret or be hugely stronger than him.
Also i myself don't know how Madara how will fit into everything but i think Naruto have alot to do with Madara. Because Naruto have Madara's pet inside him and seem like Madara might be somewhat responsible for Naruto's father death and maybe his mother(who knows?). Also i like to address what you said about Minato been resseructed to fight Madara: the day that happen will be the day i stop reading this manga. It will be simply ridiculous for kishi to do that.

[nawar]

She's not invincible; she has a seal that gathers chakra over a long period of time that allows her to regenerate ONCE during a battle. She also has normal healing tachniques, that makes her hard to kill, but by no means invincible...

no the exact thing is that once she activate the jutsu..she cant be killed in battle!! in other words she become temporarily more immortal than even hidan but with lots more risc to it (she heals faster than she can be killed)

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/169/16/

[Belisar]

I think Naruto after his training will be a match for Pain. The reason being because i just read the Jiraiya vs Pain fight again and Ma and Pa frog keep stressing that Jiraiya is a poor user of hermit mode, which means he can't use it perfectly. Naruto has already done that, he has perfected his chakra control and has Hermit mode under control. All he is doing now is adding some fighting techniques to compliment his new power.
Like some posters i truly belive that Naruto will return to Konoha when Sasuke returns too. And we might end up seeing Sasuke vs Naruto sooner than we expect. Naruto vs Pain will wait as it's Hero vs the biggest villain. However i just don't see how madara fits into all of this. I think that Madara cannot and will not be defeated by Sasuke and i also think that Naruto has nothing doing with Madara. In my opinion ( just an opinion! ) Madara will fight a resseructed Minato.:(
nice prediction but i got the feeling that madara will be killed by pain. that will made clear how strong he really is, that he is the boss and the ultimate evil.

[5sealing]

I am having a hard time visualizing Naruto beating Pein. Someone cast a genjutsu on me and show me please. Hungry Realm will eat his FuutonRasengan and outside of that he has no other options. I think his best bet is deception, he will need to rely on his wits just like Jiraiya did to distract each body and isolate on one, which may be possible with senjutsu empowered kage bunshin. Secondly, he can always rely on Bunta if need be. Thirdly, if Itachis crows help to control the Kyuubi through Genjutsu and allow the full access, Naruto can use overpowering Taijutsu; think of the fight with orochimaru times 2.

Hungry Realm needs to be taken out using taijutsu thats for sure.
Everyone else is fair game, I'd say.

[kingkano]

what if someone from konoha injures konan the partner of pein or take her as a hostage? I think pein will be very mad and go berserk and destroy the whole village :grin2

[blubli]

nice prediction but i got the feeling that madara will be killed by pain. that will made clear how strong he really is, that he is the boss and the ultimate evil.


I think that there will be more development concerning Madara before Pain or anyone else kills him. Kishi has put focus on who's behind the mask twice now, and it can only mean that we already know him (I've read theories that Madara is Danzou http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/285/14/ considering the covered right eye) or that his face will be shocking to see. If not, there will have been a lot of suspense for nothing!

[HPTR Fangirl]

I am having a hard time visualizing Naruto beating Pein. Someone cast a genjutsu on me and show me please. Hungry Realm will eat his FuutonRasengan and outside of that he has no other options. I think his best bet is deception, he will need to rely on his wits just like Jiraiya did to distract each body and isolate on one, which may be possible with senjutsu empowered kage bunshin. Secondly, he can always rely on Bunta if need be. Thirdly, if Itachis crows help to control the Kyuubi through Genjutsu and allow the full access, Naruto can use overpowering Taijutsu; think of the fight with orochimaru times 2.

Hungry Realm needs to be taken out using taijutsu thats for sure.
Everyone else is fair game, I'd say.

I believe that Itachi's crow power is specifcally made to counter Uchiha powers, not anything else. Itachi's primary concern is Sasuke and village, but I'm doubtful if Itachi power is powerful enough to take on Rinnegan. Since Rinnegan is supposed to be more powerful than both Sharingan and Byakugan.

Though the part about Naruto relying on his wits and deception to win-- I agree. He's going to need anything and everything if he intends to defeat Pain. As well as the knowlege of the Six Relams of Pain.


nice prediction but i got the feeling that madara will be killed by pain. that will made clear how strong he really is, that he is the boss and the ultimate evil.

Even though Pain considers himself a God, I'm doubtful regarding Madara being killed by Pain because as of right now both of them has the same goals -- catching the last Bijuu (make that the last two Bijuu). After extracting all that we still have to see where their goals separate. And even though Pain acknowledges himself as the "God" don't count Madara out since he was able to cheat death and moved throughout the ninja world under the guise of Tobi.


what if someone from konoha injures konan the partner of pein or take her as a hostage? I think pein will be very mad and go berserk and destroy the whole village :grin2

From what I've read, other than Jiraiya, no one else knows that Konan's weakness is water. So I doubtful if someone can easily deafeat a person who can transform into paper and what not. Not to mention, half the village will still be busy with 6 Pains, so anyone injuring Konan is slightly out of question, unless someone who knows what her weakness is. And whether Konan gets taken hostage or not, Pain is still going to cripple Konoha one way or another. After all he is the "God"

[badluckartist]

I'm not the first person and I'm not the last person to notice this, but it's Naruto Chapter 420.

It will be a fun night- hopefully I get to see more of Pain mowing through Konoha as I do rather... illicit activities :3

Anyhoo, I'm finding it increasingly more fishy that Madara and Pain seem to have similar, yet somewhat different goals. They both involve the bijuu, but Madara was totally willing to hand over the Hachibi to Sassy- was Pain even aware of that? I think their plans are going to clash very soon, and we will see just who is "God".

[blubli]

I think that there will be more development concerning Madara before Pain or anyone else kills him. Kishi has put focus on who's behind the mask twice now, and it can only mean that we already know him (I've read theories that Madara is Danzou http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/285/14/ considering the covered right eye) or that his face will be shocking to see. If not, there will have been a lot of suspense for nothing!


http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/04/


so much for the danzou/madara theories...unless Madara lied to Saske which justs gets too complicated for me to buy into.

[Marq]

I'm not the first person and I'm not the last person to notice this, but it's Naruto Chapter 420.

It will be a fun night- hopefully I get to see more of Pain mowing through Konoha as I do rather... illicit activities :3

Anyhoo, I'm finding it increasingly more fishy that Madara and Pain seem to have similar, yet somewhat different goals. They both involve the bijuu, but Madara was totally willing to hand over the Hachibi to Sassy- was Pain even aware of that? I think their plans are going to clash very soon, and we will see just who is "God".


bwhahaha.. now that is funny. Only thing toppling that is Naruto 420 chapter being released (scanlated) right on 4:20..

[The Flash]

I think Pain > Madara

But madara is invicible.. but his strength doesnt mean is stronger than Pain's. Madara probably knows pain's secret.

lol 4:20 - its gonna be a "FUN" night

[HPTR Fangirl]

I think Pain > Madara

But madara is invicible.. but his strength doesnt mean is stronger than Pain's. Madara probably knows pain's secret.

lol 4:20 - its gonna be a "FUN" night

Okay, i'm utterly confused.:blink. What do you all mean by "4:20"?

And if Madara knows Pain's strength, does that mean Madara recruited both Pain and Konan for Akatsuki realizing that he is Rinnegan heir? Then why Pain considers / refers himself as the boss?


I think Naruto after his training will be somewhat ready to face Pein but i think he will need a little more battle experenice, even though i think experience is hugely overrated by many posters, mainly to test out his senjutsu in battle situation. Like i have said before all you need to defeat Pein is to be Jiraiya level(easier said than done) and know his secret or be hugely stronger than him.
Also i myself don't know how Madara how will fit into everything but i think Naruto have alot to do with Madara. Because Naruto have Madara's pet inside him and seem like Madara might be somewhat responsible for Naruto's father death and maybe his mother(who knows?). Also i like to address what you said about Minato been resseructed to fight Madara: the day that happen will be the day i stop reading this manga. It will be simply ridiculous for kishi to do that.

I thought that Minato's death was related the Fuujin jutsu "the Death Demon Seal" used seal Kyuubi in Naruto. But I do believe that Madara will fit into all the mess he created. I do wonder though if there is way around his space / time jutsu. I would really love to see him get defeated. The only two things that will make me give up Naruto manga are
1. Naruto getting captured and bijuu extracted by the Akatsuki
2. Madara and Pain end up being the good guys through role reversal. (kinda like how Kishimoto did with Itachi, though I didn't mind Itachi role reversal that much but Pain and Madara will be too much)

[The Adamant Dragon]

The only two things that will make me give up Naruto manga are
1. Naruto getting captured and bijuu extracted by the Akatsuki



Sorry for you but that might happen in the long run... In orther for Akatsuki's Statue to Awaken, All Bijuus must be sealed inside it. <--- I don't see why Kishi will lose his time Showing that Statue as Akatsuki's center goal, but not even seeing a Glimpse of that Entity's powers.

Even If Naruto's Bijuu is extracted, he'll survive somehow since he's the main Character. If Kishi found a way to keep Garra alive after Shukaku's extraction, then he will for Naruto too.

I Want to see that entity's power/full potential unleashed and Witness Naruto & co crush it to the ground. I want an EPIC end the Akatsuki Arc.

[Strider's♥Death]

Sorry for you but that might happen in the long run... In orther for Akatsuki's Statue to Awaken, All Bijuus must be sealed inside it. <--- I don't see why Kishi will lose his time Showing that Statue as Akatsuki's center goal, but not even seeing a Glimpse of that Entity's powers.

Even If Naruto's Bijuu is extracted, he'll survive somehow since he's the main Character. If Kishi found a way to keep Garra alive after Shukaku's extraction, then he will for Naruto too.

I Want to see that entity's power/full potential unleashed and Witness Naruto & co crush it to the ground. I want an EPIC end the Akatsuki Arc.

I gotta disagree , naruto without the 9 tails isnt naruto at all. They both together have been a big theme in this manga and getting rid of the 9 tails seems unlikely.

What I think is that pain or madara might just activate the statue with just 7 tailed beasts(if its possible) and im pretty sure it will still be a very powerful weapon w/e that is.

Anyways I doubt that either madara or pain are really counting on this power the statue is going to deliver when complete. What i mean is i doubt they will go bananas and say "oh well there goes our global domination weapon time to call it quits" they must have other plans.

[bean]

I gotta disagree , naruto without the 9 tails isnt naruto at all. They both together have been a big theme in this manga and getting rid of the 9 tails seems unlikely.

What I think is that pain or madara might just activate the statue with just 7 tailed beasts(if its possible) and im pretty sure it will still be a very powerful weapon w/e that is.

Anyways I doubt that either madara or pain are really counting on this power the statue is going to deliver when complete. What i mean is i doubt they will go bananas and say "oh well there goes our global domination weapon time to call it quits" they must have other plans.
I don't think all 9 are required
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/238/18-19/

"IF we include the kyuubi..."

sounds like the kyuubi is optional.

[The Adamant Dragon]

I gotta disagree , naruto without the 9 tails isnt naruto at all. They both together have been a big theme in this manga and getting rid of the 9 tails seems unlikely.

What I think is that pain or madara might just activate the statue with just 7 tailed beasts(if its possible) and im pretty sure it will still be a very powerful weapon w/e that is.

Anyways I doubt that either madara or pain are really counting on this power the statue is going to deliver when complete. What i mean is i doubt they will go bananas and say "oh well there goes our global domination weapon time to call it quits" they must have other plans.


Pain isn't the Kind of guy who'll give up, he's a stubborn character who won't rest until he gets what he wants. And if, this "God", thinks that this Statue's power is necessary for him to acquire in order to achieve world domination, then I'm afraid he'll hunt every last remaining Bijuus himself if he has to...

Considering the Fact that they've spent and waited patiently at least 15 years ( It was 15 years ago that the Bijuus were sealed in they're hosts ), to gather all the Bijuus, to then see the remaining members say that they don't need its power anymore after ALL the trouble they went through? For me its very much unlikely strider.

Naruto will surely defeat Pain, but he might have some trouble when the "Real one" shows up. I don't know for you but I want that beast awaken at full power. And its made clear in the manga (at least for me)that the Statue needs all Bijuus sealed inside it and in the right order for it to awaken. That's my thoughts on it :amuse