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ttxdragon
August 08, 2008, 07:34 AM
Feast your eyes on another chapter of Battle here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=981241)!


Have fun discussing!



PS.: and please remember to stay on topic and not to spam!


REMEMBER! There is no Shounen Jump this week!! Next chapter is expected around 22nd.

anonym9191
August 08, 2008, 07:42 AM
Well I didn't really like this chapter.
The main reason though is that after introducing those fights for so long, it seems like the author wants to rush over those fights. Well: I have nothing against rushing through the fights but doing so long introdructions and then more or less rushing through them is not so great.

The best part probably was that we finally found out about the ability of his soul slayer.

ryanzokuken
August 08, 2008, 09:01 AM
good chapter, in my opinion. i thought it was pretty cool. Yumichika was wicked badass!

"Thank you."

and then commence the ownage.

ha.

Eye of the tiger
August 08, 2008, 09:09 AM
It was a good chapter given that the last 2 chapters were mainly craptalk.. So Ikkaku's up next, hope there's less fart and more fight.. and cutbacks to captain comments or espada comments would be nice.. Kubo's being a bit hard-headed here.. maybe in a writer's block or something.. This whole thing he's set up since late last year still has the potential to be an epic manga arc if he is more creative, loosen up a little and let some character development/intrigue also go along (like Gin's comments.. friggin' wicked!) with the fights.. and also show some formation/group strategy as well rather than just matche similar characters to fight..

kkck
August 08, 2008, 09:14 AM
Yumichika pawned, his shikai is awesome, to bad he waits till no one can see him to use it.
What I really liked about this chapter is that coolhorn died, he was the worst arrancar I have ever seen.
[hr]
I want to see ichigo vs Ulquiorra, but if kubo wants us to see the 4 pillar battle before that, we will probably have to wait at least 1 more month.

hajialibaig
August 08, 2008, 09:22 AM
My question is what are the Espada and Captains doing all of this time? Staring at each other? This got to be the lamest thing ever to happen to this manga....

And these Vice Captains vs Fraccion fight better not end up with every Vice Captain winning, that'll be such a waste. I mean, what'll will it add to the reader? Everyone pretty much knows the Vice Captains are gonna win to start with, so what's the point of showing these fights then... that's why I hope some pillars are destroyed, to add some thrill to this already boring stand-off

Lateralis
August 08, 2008, 09:26 AM
Even a little hint about the vizard's whereabouts would be nice to see...Well lets get these fights done with..1 down 3 to go...

Eye of the tiger
August 08, 2008, 09:27 AM
time passes very, VERY slowly in Bleach.. the captains will be fighting, talking, hamming simultaneously, so will Ichigo be fighting Ulq, rukia and co be fighting exequias, Unohana scaring anyone in the vicinity, Zaraki running around aimlessly, Byakuya brooding, Mayuri playing with dead bodies being deliriously happy (in bleach time, that wasn't more than 10 min. ago, in real world, that was when I was a kid!!).. so the point is, just keep on waiting man! Kubo'll show what u want.. I think the fab4 fights are good too.. more revelations and techniques.. it'll make good anime..

neomaster121
August 08, 2008, 09:48 AM
well im just glad the fight is finished and we move onto somthing more serious

bad chapter the shinigami had 1 arm broken just as the fight starts fight ends with his new version shiki which seeems weird but as long of the other fights are better i'll be happy

ThaGreatOne
August 08, 2008, 09:56 AM
the only thing good about this chapter is that the battle is over lol. Seriously though I feared the battle would take up the whole chapter and it did. What a waste! Two battles could be done right now. I guess what I'm saying is why even introduce these losers and not show any other fight at the same time. Granted I like to see battles but I wanted to skip over these vice captains and weak arrancar and get straight to the captains and viazards (remember them? lol).

As for prediction each vice captain battle takes at least two chapters and will be shown right after the other to stall for time as kubo gets ready for ichigo and ulq.
I'm thinking like this:
Vice captains vs loser arrancer (x3)
Scene switch
Ichigo battle (mainly) then when it gets good
Scene switch
Captains and Aizen are ready but some other delay occurs that we have to sit through painfully...
then back and forth between ichigo and Captains v Aizen. Looks like we have a few months worth of material to get through so it's gonna take awhile

Yans86
August 08, 2008, 10:18 AM
I'm glad too that the fight is finished,but I have to say that YUmichika is great,really amazing shikai!Everyone want to see Shuuhei,but he got pwned by Yummi!
I think that the only way to beat him,is to give him a really fast fatal blow,because he kicked coolhorn ass in 2 second......I can't see how someone can manage to escape from his shikai released,if u get caught it's finished!u can have a bigger reiatsu than him,and think that his shikai is worthless but after few second u lost all power.....SSSSSUUUUUPPPEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!
Waitin for his bankai,I'd like to see something like Tousen bankai's,but with the power of sucking all the reiatsu in a certain area,without touching the enemy....superstrong!

hossice
August 08, 2008, 10:23 AM
im not sure if coolhorn is dead. yeah the flower was disapearing but, when an arrancar dies, doesn't their body vanish or idk some way to show us it did? so which brings me to my prediction on next ch.
Prediction:
1/2 used for talk and coolhorn finally dies
and another 1/2 used to show another fight or some reactions from other benchwarmers(captains, espada). or maybe a mix of both.

Yans86
August 08, 2008, 10:28 AM
Coolhorn is finished!read cthe chapter guys........VICTORY IS BEAUTY,end of the chapter!iThink 5-6 more chapters and the Pillar's batlle will end..I hope.....too much fight and not plot advancement.....even if watching new release and fights is cool,the plot is more important!Don't wanna see another Dragon Ball,even if DB is THE STORY!!!!!!!

Tsukisama
August 08, 2008, 10:55 AM
While I agree with that I am a bit disappointed that these four battles of minor characters is getting this level of attention, I am at least satisfied that this was an interesting chapter. Yumichika received some character development in the chapter to the point where I feel like I understand his character a little more than before. It was also nice to see his shikai's true power. Ikkaku being able to recognize Yumichika's laugh in the midst of battle was a nice touch, as it underscores how close their friendship is.

I was disappointed with Charlotte's release. If the rose-themed release was to be wasted on him (I would have rather seen Rose the vizard or at least Mira Rose have roses for their release rather than this freak), I would have at least liked to see it in action. I am still left wondering what exactly his release does. 'Rosa Blanca' surrounds the victim in black briars and there is a giant white rose in the background... what else happens? This attack reminded me a little of Pisces Aphrodite's Pirahnnian (sp?) Rose attack, which I actually liked much more than Charlotte's. Since the rose theme was not explored in much depth through Charlotte, hopefully it will be used by someone cooler in the future.

[hr]

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Devil-buster
August 08, 2008, 11:42 AM
I gotta say...yumichka has one sick ability....almost like soifon's two touch kill....and he was able to take a direct cero.....leads me to believe he is definately VC level or higher.....but i still have a doubt....why does he call his zanpaktou by a different name....fujikujaku and ruriro fujaku.....confuses me....

anyways....yumichka is awesome....

I was just thinking...what if halibel had cool horns kinkiness....mad nice....one can dream

Tsukisama
August 08, 2008, 12:26 PM
I gotta say...yumichka has one sick ability....almost like soifon's two touch kill....and he was able to take a direct cero.....leads me to believe he is definately VC level or higher.....but i still have a doubt....why does he call his zanpaktou by a different name....fujikujaku and ruriro fujaku.....confuses me....

anyways....yumichka is awesome....

I was just thinking...what if halibel had cool horns kinkiness....mad nice....one can dream

I think that this is just another example of a shinigami having a different manner of naming his shikai attack. We have seen Tousen call another of his shikai abilities a "second form," while Rukia initially release with the command "dance" and proceeds to number and then name each dance. I wouldn't really pay much attention to it. Since it seems (thus far) that the "bloom, Fujikujaku" is the primary command and that this ability can only be activated after the primary command, I think "Fujikujaku" is his zanpakutou's name.

At most, it could maybe mean that Yumichika hides the true power of his zanpakutou to the point where his shikai has two separate forms (perhaps somewhat similar to Tousen's), each with a different name and the true name of his zanpakutou is just "jaku," as it appears in both names, but since Kubo has listed the name of Yumichika's zanpakutou as "Fujikujaku" in all media seen thus far, I doubt that this is the case.

Starky-08
August 08, 2008, 12:54 PM
I'm startin to like Yumichika alot more now, he took that arrancar down with ease, and only using a Shikai! to be he would be on the same level as Ikkaku.

Devil-buster
August 08, 2008, 01:01 PM
I think that this is just another example of a shinigami having a different manner of naming his shikai attack. We have seen Tousen call another of his shikai abilities a "second form," while Rukia initially release with the command "dance" and proceeds to number and then name each dance. I wouldn't really pay much attention to it. Since it seems (thus far) that the "bloom, Fujikujaku" is the primary command and that this ability can only be activated after the primary command, I think "Fujikujaku" is his zanpakutou's name.

At most, it could maybe mean that Yumichika hides the true power of his zanpakutou to the point where his shikai has two separate forms (perhaps somewhat similar to Tousen's), each with a different name and the true name of his zanpakutou is just "jaku," as it appears in both names, but since Kubo has listed the name of Yumichika's zanpakutou as "Fujikujaku" in all media seen thus far, I doubt that this is the case.


First of all....THANK YOU...but the reason why kubo listed his zanpaktou's name as fujikujaku till now could be because the other name wasnt revealed till now...so it would have been like givin away storyline.....

Actually in tousen's case the name remains same...suzumushi....also he might have two commands due to the fact that suzumushi wasnt originally his but his friends......and one of those shikai commands might be his friends and one his....

But agains Thank you for answering...

sabret00the
August 08, 2008, 01:05 PM
Are we sure that weren't his bankai? anyway it was a good chapter, i enjoyed it, it was a lot better than Naruto.

Onomatopoeia
August 08, 2008, 02:01 PM
Their are two reasons it can't be a Bankai. One he didn't say Bankai before releasing it and all the other character do. Secondly he said it was a Shikai when fighting Hisagi way back when. Yumi's Shikai just has multiple uses like Rukia's and Tousens.

Next Battle:Ikkaku vs Po
Battle After that: Hisagi vs Findor
Final Battle: Kira vs Abirama

badluckartist
August 08, 2008, 02:10 PM
At first glance, it's hard to not assume that was Yumichika's Bankai. But then I remember that nearly every character has said "Bankai!!" on their first time using it in the manga... So I guess that's Yumichika's shikai's ability. Seems like total ownage, although the shots of Yumichika getting serious didn't look like his usual 'getting serious' face. It looked like recycled Ichigo/Kaien art, which tells me Kubo is getting antsy to draw the Ichigo/Ulquiorra fight.

I get a funny feeling that Ikaku is going to lose this time around.

Tsukisama
August 08, 2008, 02:22 PM
First of all....THANK YOU...but the reason why kubo listed his zanpaktou's name as fujikujaku till now could be because the other name wasnt revealed till now...so it would have been like givin away storyline.....

Actually in tousen's case the name remains same...suzumushi....also he might have two commands due to the fact that suzumushi wasnt originally his but his friends......and one of those shikai commands might be his friends and one his....

But agains Thank you for answering...

I realize that the two different shikai for Tousen have the same name, which is why I called it somewhat similar. We don't know whether Tousen's two shikai have anything to do with his zanpakutou having a previous owner (I believe there is a thread on this in Biblioteca), but it seems that distinctly different shikai is not completely foreign idea as we see more shinigami with different shikai.

It is possible that Kubo merely listed "Fujikujaku" as the name of Yumi's zanpakutou just because he did not wish to reveal the true name, but until it is stated otherwise, it is probably best to go with has already stated as true. (Occam's razor -> The simplest solution is best.)


Are we sure that weren't his bankai? anyway it was a good chapter, i enjoyed it, it was a lot better than Naruto.

Yes, we know this is not his bankai. This is the same ability he used in his fight against Shuuhei, and then later, just before the HM arc began, we got confirmation that Yumichika was at the point still trying to achieve bankai.

hyn_pride93
August 08, 2008, 02:27 PM
I think that this is just another example of a shinigami having a different manner of naming his shikai attack. We have seen Tousen call another of his shikai abilities a "second form," while Rukia initially release with the command "dance" and proceeds to number and then name each dance. I wouldn't really pay much attention to it. Since it seems (thus far) that the "bloom, Fujikujaku" is the primary command and that this ability can only be activated after the primary command, I think "Fujikujaku" is his zanpakutou's name.

At most, it could maybe mean that Yumichika hides the true power of his zanpakutou to the point where his shikai has two separate forms (perhaps somewhat similar to Tousen's), each with a different name and the true name of his zanpakutou is just "jaku," as it appears in both names, but since Kubo has listed the name of Yumichika's zanpakutou as "Fujikujaku" in all media seen thus far, I doubt that this is the case.

I think that Yumichika's zanpaktou really does have two names. But his zanpaktou's true name is jaku like how you said. It's just that Yumichika's zanpaktou is pretty confusing but is still awesome! "blosom, Fujikujaku" is his zanpaktou's first and primary form, while "Ruriokujaku" is the secondary form. "Split and Deviate" is probably the command that sends each of his four blades apart to become those vines that we saw.

Yumichika is my absolute favorite character in this whole series and he has been for a while now. But it really sucks when things like this happen because I get so lost and don't know what is going on really.

Could Ruriokujaku just be the name of his attack, or could it truly be the second form of his shikai? Very confusing.

mgalli
August 08, 2008, 02:34 PM
man wont people ever get that yumichkiwa doesnt have a bankai?


anyways it was an okay chapter, I just hope the rest of the VC fights dont have so much talk


also, question: How do you think a captain would get out of yumichkiwa's shikai?Especially zaraki who just keeps releasing reaitsu..... I mean it is pretty deadly shikai....

Tsukisama
August 08, 2008, 02:34 PM
I am surprised to see that your favorite chatacter is Yumichika, hyn, as I always thought it was Orihime. :amuse Anyhow, I was somewhat joking about "Jaku" being the name of Yumichika's zanpakutou. "Jaku" is far too short to seem like the real name of a zanpakutou (though it still could be). I am still leaning towards "Fujikujaku" being the name of his zanpakutou and "Ruriro Fujaku" being the name of an attack, but at this point, other possibilities are equally likely.

hyn_pride93
August 08, 2008, 02:42 PM
Now I know what Hisagi went through when he fought against Yumichika. Yumichika's ability is awesome! The only thing is, we all know that this technique wouldn't really affect people like Rangiku or Byakuya. You know, shinigami with zanpaktou that can detach from the hilt and move around on their own and what not. Unless Byakuya and Rangiku use their reiatsu to let their zanpaktou move freely? If that's the case then they would be in trouble.
[hr]

I am surprised to see that your favorite chatacter is Yumichika, hyn, as I always thought it was Orihime. :amuse Anyhow, I was somewhat joking about "Jaku" being the name of Yumichika's zanpakutou. "Jaku" is far too short to seem like the real name of a zanpakutou (though it still could be). I am still leaning towards "Fujikujaku" being the name of his zanpakutou and "Ruriro Fujaku" being the name of an attack, but at this point, other possibilities are equally likely.

Ahaha ya!! You're right! Orihime is indeed my favorite character. But a little while back (meaning last month :XD) I decided that I needed a male fave too, thus giving me Yumichika being the male fave and leaving me with Orihime as the female fave. You get?:amuse

Plus, I haven't really seen much of you Tsuki. Missed reading your posts, I really enjoy them.:amuse
[hr]
But as for the names, yes, many things can happen now. Especially now at this time because we really haven't seen these characters for some time now and many things are possible.

No one knows. Maybe Yumichika does have a bankai and is hiding it just like how Ikkaku is and keeping it a secret. Also, if he does have one, why would he use it in this battle? He is a confident shinigami, is he not? So thus being the way he is, would try and do other attacks first before releasing his bankai and use as more of a last resort. Besides, Cool Horn is pretty weak, and using a bankai on him would be a waste of time IMO.

patedecarne
August 08, 2008, 03:24 PM
just readied the chapter, and while I'm expecting to see the big fishes fight, Yumichika's fight was a pleasured one!

His shikai is incredible, and there's no way to negate it, because Kubo really knows how to write and draw great battles: Yumichika's new ability was a solid proof about it.

His development here was superb too, not only on his powers and abilities, but as well on his personality, and to be just a filler, this chapter was great;

Ikkaku and Yumichika are good on hide their true abilities, and they're powerful shinigamis too. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll see this ability again, but I'm so satisfied with we got from Yumichika.

A surprising chapter, I must say!

AngryChubbs
August 08, 2008, 04:25 PM
i want to see the kira fight, his ability to double the weight of whatever he touches is definetly one of the deadliest abilities in this story.

Onomatopoeia
August 08, 2008, 04:32 PM
With this chapter Yumichaka might have cemented himself as the second strongest Shikai(Aizen's total hypnosis is still the ultimate hax). I honestly can't see any sort of downside to it unless of course it doesn't work on people with way to much reitsu.

So anyways will Ikkaku release Bankai against Po? I really doubt theirs anyway to hide something like a Bankai unless of course he beats him with just a Shikai(which I doubt).

Franckie
August 08, 2008, 04:37 PM
Are we sure that weren't his bankai? anyway it was a good chapter, i enjoyed it, it was a lot better than Naruto.

I disagree. The current Naruto fight is better than the current Bleach fight, especially with Sasuke taking some hefty damage in last week's chapter. As for this fight, unlike last week, no suspense exists in this chapter. The moment Yumichika learned nobody could see him, he just pwns the Arrancar despite the fact he has a broken arm. This fight simply gives a small extension to Yumichika's ability, which we've known for quite sometime now.

This fight is just a borefest, stalling before Aizen's inevitable win.

hyn_pride93
August 08, 2008, 04:40 PM
I think that if they have way too much reiatsu, that'll just make the flowers on Yumichika's vines grow faster thus absorbing the reiatsu at a faster rate, which will probably cause the death to approach faster. It'll probably work fast on Ichigo because he's got so much reiatsu pouring out of him. But then again, it could back fire and make the flowers explode from absorbing too much at one time.

Mythsoul
August 08, 2008, 06:17 PM
awesome chapter.....about time we saw some action from Yimichika....and to finally see his bankai....that was awesome....hope to see alot more chapters as this one

Onomatopoeia
August 08, 2008, 07:12 PM
Mythsoul that wasn't his bankai that was his Shikai. Look through the previous pages and you'll get lots of reasons why that isn't his Bankai. I'm to lazy to explain the reasoning since their are about 20 posts dedicated just to proving that was his Shikai.

momo90
August 08, 2008, 08:00 PM
Wha..?

I didn't understand the last bit...was that his bankai or speacial move??

Anywho..

Im Glad that freaky dude is out of the picture now, and i hope its Kira's fight next!!

Oooh! I like Kira :)

Mystic Moon
August 08, 2008, 08:33 PM
It was his shikai. It's the same technique he used on Hisagi during the SS arc. The one that sucked his reiatsu (soul power) dry. As you can see him commenting in the anime and manga. (too lazy to find manga ref.)

Andonan
August 08, 2008, 09:53 PM
Yumi = epic....but why doesn't he want anyone to see it, that still what doesn't make any sense to me. He could easily be a VC with that sorta power,and if he still has a bankai up his sleeve....god damn. I know he wants to stay with Ikkaku and Zaraki, but I would at least show my power off, though I'm sure it was Ikkaku and 69 dude who recommended him for the position on the pillars, he is easily stronger than Rukia and Renji I reckon, not to mention probably every other VC with the exception of perhaps Team 11 current VC, I reckon she has the same sorta reitsu pool as Zaraki.......

Travis
August 08, 2008, 10:20 PM
Yumi = epic....but why doesn't he want anyone to see it, that still what doesn't make any sense to me. He could easily be a VC with that sorta power,and if he still has a bankai up his sleeve....god damn. I know he wants to stay with Ikkaku and Zaraki, but I would at least show my power off, though I'm sure it was Ikkaku and 69 dude who recommended him for the position on the pillars, he is easily stronger than Rukia and Renji I reckon, not to mention probably every other VC with the exception of perhaps Team 11 current VC, I reckon she has the same sorta reitsu pool as Zaraki.......

It's explained when he fights Hisagi. His zanpaktou is a kidou based zanpaktou and the 11 division looks down on it, so he kept it a secret.

Seta Soujirou
August 08, 2008, 10:55 PM
The arrancars just sucks...I will be pretty down if i'm Aizen...all those trash talks and nothing else to back up those puny mouths of theirs...

That's Yumichika's shikai...no mistake about it...

narchy
August 08, 2008, 11:07 PM
I think someone else mentioned it briefly but no one expanded upon it but for everyone debating multiple names for Yumi's zanpakutou or multiple releases for his soul slayer, Fujikujaku is almost assuredly the name of the zanpakutou. As for the other name, perhaps it's the name of the specific blade/s that "activate/s" when Yumi says 'split" and "deviate." Since his shikai lends him more than one blade to fight with(albeit with the same hilt) he could have a special name for one or more or all of them. On the same principle, Kyoraku taichou and Ukitake taichou might also have unique names for their individual blades even though their zanpakutou exist as a pair (but that's yet to be seen).
Just my two cents...

p.s. Glad cool horn is finally out of the scene. that death/defeat couldn't have come sooner...

hyn_pride93
August 08, 2008, 11:08 PM
yumichika is incredible. That's all we really need to know right now. For him to keep on hiding his power from all his comrades is amazing. It just sucks though that the eleventh squad looks down on kidou based zanpaktous. Yumichika could easily trump Ikkaku if he wantedto but the thing is hebdoesnt want I and wants to stay win his friends at all costs. Why would he want to take away a position from someone that he cares about. That position being the position of vice captain. I'm sure that yachiru would be pissed if he did that.

Mystic Moon
August 08, 2008, 11:51 PM
Sure as hell he is. Ikkaku has rights to captainship and Yumi to Vice Captainship and they dont take it so that they can stay under Zaraki. Thats interesting but they can do so much more if they had higher ranks.

I loved the part where he nearly killed himself laughing so hard though. I'm surprised Ikkaku could hear it though. Must've been loud. But sure as hell Coolhorn was WEAK, like wtf died in like two chapters thats not cool. Hes supposed to be one of the fraccion for one of the top 3 espada. He should've been stronger, but with that kind of skill, I cant say I'm surprised.

Personnaly I would have fainted from the uglyness XP. Wonder whose fight is next. It might be Ikkaku's cuz his fight was the only one showed in this chapter. Hopefully Kubo generates a lot of good ideas for the other three battles to come.

BigJDelux
August 09, 2008, 12:22 AM
If Kira is in the next chapter, that would be a whole lot of Kira fighting in one week. . . being that he is also fighting Kifune in the anime.

I am also really impressed with Yumi beating the crap out of Tranny Sly Stallone/Cool Horn. His SHIKAI attack was awesome.

My prediction for next week is that Barragan spontaneously combusts due to the sheer amount of SUCK and LAMENESS trapped in his physical form. That goofy old ass of his. If that doesn't happen, then I say they will go back to 3 pages of Ulquiorra doing prefight "bad guy explains everything" monologue, and then Kira or Hisagi.

Onomatopoeia
August 09, 2008, 12:34 AM
Next battle will be Ikkaku I think followed by Hisagi and then Kira. Because so far it looks like the order is descending. Oh and Barragan rocks so bad. He's crazy awesome.

hyn_pride93
August 09, 2008, 12:44 AM
ikkaku's battle is next. I think it's because kubo wants to save the battles where the opponents have connections with each other for last. The connections being Tousen and Gin.

Mystic Moon
August 09, 2008, 12:45 AM
Fuck yeah. Save the best for last AKA KIRA!!!

Andonan
August 09, 2008, 01:35 AM
I would imagine that Ikkaku's battle will be next, and I wouldn't even be surprised if Ikkaku kills his guy in 1 chapter, I can imagine Yumi coming along half way through and being like "still not done" and then Ikkaku being like "I can't have you beating me Yumi", *Ikkaku goes Bankai and one shots the enemy* :p

Sentou Ryoku
August 09, 2008, 01:57 AM
Ikkaku seems to the 'power type' opponents. Hopefully his fight's better than just seeing whose final attack is stronger (i.e., Ikakku against Volcanica).

Also, is this really considered Yumichika's Bankai, since he didn't call 'Bankai' out loud?

mackazoid
August 09, 2008, 02:22 AM
Why doesn't any one realize that kubo is timing pacing his manga such that every 10 chapters fit into one volume nicely?

That's the reason for the pacing, you'll see everything fits nicely if you read the manga again in volumes.

Andonan
August 09, 2008, 02:42 AM
Oh really I hadn't noticed that mackazoid haha but you are correct hahaha, good observation

hyn_pride93
August 09, 2008, 03:02 AM
I never noticed that. I knew that by reading the manga again you would see that everything fits together perfectly and makes total and complete sense. But I never thought or noticed that Kubo was making his manga into volumes by putting every 10 chapters together and making them work together perfectly.
[hr]
Mystic Moon!!! Lmao :lmao you crack me up! Yes Kira is the "best" but his battle will be kind of simillar to Rukia's. If you don't get what I mean let me explain.

Rukia battled against her beloved comrad and lieutenant. She had a soft spot in her heart for years bcause she was the one that killed him and then had to kill he image of him again giving her a peace of mind because she released him from that wretched monster espada.

Kira isn't fighting his beloved captain, but he is battling the one arrancar who likes to torment him by bringing up his former captain Gin into the battle to draw out the best in him. Kira is fighting him out of hatred for his ex-captain and disgust for his betrayal. He's also fighting to rid himself of the memories.

Now that I think of it, Kira is doing the exact opposite of Rukia. LOL. I'm such a retard. :amuse

patz
August 09, 2008, 04:40 AM
Are you guys sure that Coolhorn is dead? I only saw him knee down in the last page.

hyn_pride93
August 09, 2008, 05:02 AM
Yumichika's ability is to absorb the reiatsu of the person ensnared within the vines. Once the flowers on the vines bloom, it means that the person's reiatsu has been completley drained out of them. In this manga, a soul needs reiatsu to survive. So without reiatsu that means that they'll die off. That's why when Rukia was inches of from total death, her reiatsu withered so low that was almost impossible to feel. If her reiatsu had completely vanished then she wouldve died.

So with that, we can say that Cool Horn is dead. Why? Because he has been rid of his reiatsu.

Andonan
August 09, 2008, 05:45 AM
Sorry a chapter can't end with a full page spread with a long "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" at the end and not be dead haha :P

ryanzokuken
August 09, 2008, 06:49 AM
i think we'll most likely see Ikkaku's bankai, given that he was introduced into the whole 4 pillar deal with his shikai already out to begin with. he's gotta have somewhere to go with his fighting.

Andonan
August 09, 2008, 07:55 AM
@ryan: Yeah absolutely true, Ikkaku's shikai was never reall impressive to me hahaha, not even when fighting Ichigo all that time ago, also quick point, why did Ichigo stop doing the spinning of his blade using the bandage tape, that was epic, stupid bankai getting all the attention *sigh*

Inkovic
August 09, 2008, 08:34 AM
Anybody else over the whole "every-secondary-character-gets-a-fight" thing?

God Ichigo confronted Ulquirra finally and we're stuck waiting through all of the meaningless 3rd seat Shinigami battles with random Arrancar.

And another thing: Why do the Arrancar have bizarre personalities? They've only been in Arrancar form since Aizen got betrayed SS yet each seem to have weird nuanced personalities.

winterwyrm
August 09, 2008, 09:54 AM
I agree, part of me wants to see coolhorn survive and do something a lot cooler, and Yumi have to use his shikai a little more creatively, but still, I don't think that will happen, afterall, the rosa blanca was clearly wilting, and if Yumi is visible again, then he probably wont use his shikai at all.

Hello_Moto
August 09, 2008, 11:05 AM
im ready for them to move on that fight was boring i think the next will be more action packed the beauty crap was stupid ikkaku will heatn it up i think he so awesome

Onomatopoeia
August 09, 2008, 11:59 AM
Ikkaku vs Po... I kinda hope that Po is a lot stronger then Coolhorn because I don't want a chapter of trashtalking followed by a bankai and a WTF stomp by Ikkaku, it gets old after a while. Hopefully we'll get a good fight.

Andonan
August 09, 2008, 05:58 PM
Ikkaku's fight will be quick because we've seen all his abilities, if our holding out for the good fights wait for Kira and Hisagi, we may even see a bankai, m bet would be on Kira, and Hisagi's release I'm sure will be awesome haha

darkband
August 09, 2008, 08:11 PM
If we see a new bankai, it has to be Kira. Just because Hisagi has never shown his shikai, we probably wouldn't get to see bankai from him so soon.

Hrathgrath
August 09, 2008, 09:27 PM
As much as I would love to see an apologizer bankai, just the thought of it seems broken:) , I don't think kira has the control to come out with it. I see Ikkaku doing his thing and hopefully doing something new with his bankai other than just going berserk. ever get the feeling they pushed out all of his possibilities too early... kinda like Tien in DBZ, started getting cool then just capped off..

Onomatopoeia
August 09, 2008, 09:35 PM
Hisagi defintely won't be getting a Bankai theirs no doubt in my mind at all. As for Kira? Well I don't think it's likely though I suppose if he gets a Bankai then Rangiku must have a Bankai. Still Apoligizer Bankai would be really broken if the Shikai is that useful. I mean if your smart you can make that Shikai more useful then some of the Bankai's we've seen.

bigbyte
August 09, 2008, 10:03 PM
i want to see the kira fight, his ability to double the weight of whatever he touches is definitely one of the deadliest abilities in this story.

both byakuya and rangiku have easy counters for him. for others, all you have to do is hold it with one thing and not let it touch anything else. granted that you have to be skilled to do that and know his ability beforehand, once the secret it out it is not difficult to counter.

Devil-buster
August 09, 2008, 10:37 PM
actually Kira's shikai has another demon....if someone is strong enough to handle their zanpaktou even after the weights been added(people like zaraki and ichigo...they r freakisly strong).....then kira will be the one on the back foot.....since now he has to defend against a much heavier sword....also if is useless against any kidou or element based attacks....like getsuga tensho, fire, ice....it is only useful in head to head sword fighting.....

If I want to see anyone's bankai among those 4.....I would like to see yumichka's...but alas his fight is over....But I will be satisfied by improvements in ikkaku's bankai....

hyn_pride93
August 09, 2008, 10:45 PM
I too would like to see Yumichika's bankai. But since we just got his shikai out, then we will have to wait. The same goes for Hisagi. We've never seen anything come out of him. So all we can expect right now is his shikai at the most. IDT we will be seing his bankai this fast. The same goes for Kira as well. He hasn't even released yet and he has already managed to slit his opponent. We'll only be seeing Wabiku in this fight. I don't think that he'll be going all out. Besides, I don't even think that he has a bankai.

Andonan
August 09, 2008, 11:10 PM
Kira's struck me as the strongest Arrancarr out of those fighting the four so I wouldn't be surprised if Kira has bankai. Actually something good about these current fillers, they actually made me like Kira so I think it would be cool to see a Kira bankai, PLUS it would be really epic considering how strong his shikai is. Maybe he'll be able to distribute weight without having to hit the enemy or something along those lines. Well either way Kubo has managed to make me enjoy these fights after that last chapter, I'm not in such a rush to get back to Ichigo anymore hahahaha

Mystic Moon
August 10, 2008, 08:06 AM
That should go both ways. He should be able to change the weight since bankai is more evolved and whtnot.

So probably he'll get to decide whether its heavier or lighter.

bigbyte
August 10, 2008, 09:40 AM
bankai making the opponents weapon weightless. that is stupid.
the only advantage I see is that *if* the opponent loses grip, someone can fling the thing a few thousand miles away and make him unarmed.

AngryChubbs
August 10, 2008, 11:02 AM
both byakuya and rangiku have easy counters for him. for others, all you have to do is hold it with one thing and not let it touch anything else. granted that you have to be skilled to do that and know his ability beforehand, once the secret it out it is not difficult to counter.

well apparently all you need to defeat byakuya is speed (thinks of ichigo).

and for his ability being able to be neglegted by someone who is strong. lets take a sword weighing 10 pounds. his ability doubles the weight every time it hits the sword. so lets assume he manages 5 blocks, doubling the weight 5 times. 10 - 20 - 40 - 80 - 160 - 320. final weight of the sword is 320 pounds, now if thats not crippling, i dont know what is.

kweci
August 10, 2008, 12:36 PM
regardless of whether coolhorn died or not, we are still not going to move on to the next fight immediately (this is just like when mayuri stabbed szayel). i say 6-8 pages on yumichika, 1-2 pages of reactions (if we are lucky), and the rest will set up ikkaku's fight (we won't see po's release or ikkaku's bankai until the chapter after). i don't think hisagi or kira's fight, whichever one comes first, will start until 3 chapters from now.

I am pleased with the pace of this side-arc for the moment, as long as hisagi and Kira get more time. everything must be done right (in order to not make the espada, especially Barragan, and arrancar in general seem weak). It does not bother me that the other's are just chilling, staring at each other cuz we would have a difficult ass time following the battles of 6 captains, 4 VCs, 3 espada, like 4 other fraccions and 3 traitors, not to mention another 2 battles in HC, if they happened at the same time. this will be like the time komamura fought kenpachi, yamamoto was fighting shunsui and ukitake, and ichigo was fighting byakuya and soifon was fighting yoriuchi, except hopefully this time, everyone will get their spot in the limelight.

ShaunMati1
August 10, 2008, 01:01 PM
The thing about these chapters that kubo is releasing is that sadly u can miss all these fights about the four pillars and u wont lose any movement in the plot. IMO thats not very good. I also feel that the difference between fillers in the Anime and fillers in the Manga is that for the manga it takes about 1-2 min to read and we have to wait a whole week for another chapter. Where the anime is equivalent to maybe 2 1/2 chapters of manga so we get more. So for the fillers now in the anime its fine. Before those fillers started ichigo beat grimjow, that was way close to where we were in the manga. That was when the gaiden started (or somewhere around that time). If we had no fillers in the anime we would probably be where SS comes or possibly the fights between SS and Las Noches. So in conclusion i hope these four pillar fights dont last long at all cuz in the manga i look for more story development.

ryanzokuken
August 10, 2008, 02:09 PM
well regardless of whether or not these chapters advance the story along, they aren't filler. in fact, there is no filler in the manga.

the very meaning of "filler anime" is that it is non-canon and has nothing to do with the actual main storyline. it is "filler" to be shown while the real stuff is being made and caught up. and the filler is always stuff that was not in the manga.

everything in the manga is canon and contributes to the main storyline, therefore, not filler.

and besides, these fights are all about the attack on, and the defending of the four pillars, which are the key to keeping the fake Karakura Town up.
this is quite important, actually. not to mention that it's fun to watch the best of the Lieutenants/weaker characters (minus Yachiru) fight.

if the defenders of the pillars were Momo, Rangiku, Omaeda, and Iba, then i would bitch and complain like everyone else. thankfully we got Ikkaku, Yumichika, Hisagi, and Kira. and i seem to be one of a small handful who isn't hating these chapters.

Alexis
August 10, 2008, 03:04 PM
So this second release command with the flowers, what exactly was that? I assume if it was Bankai, he'd have to say it. But he acted like Ikkaku in the fact that he seemed to be hiding this power for some reason.

kunai-knight
August 10, 2008, 04:12 PM
Well before he gave the reason he was hiding it. Something to do with his division members ridiculing him because his release didnt just strictly involve brute strength, but also kidou stuff. His division members consider stuff like that weak so he hides it from them.

Hockeychaoz
August 10, 2008, 05:46 PM
I find it interesting that Yumi was about to die rather than Ikkaku find out about his true ability.


This is just a sidenote, but wouldn't it be great to see a Zaraki-Ikkaku fight?

Doombot
August 10, 2008, 06:09 PM
It is a good thing we have the interesting Vices and Squad 11 people for these defenders. The reason why Yumi is hiding his powers is basically the same as Ikkaku. If anyone knew how strong they were there is a possibility they would force them to take higher positions on other squads. I mean Ikkaku could easily become a captain and I actually see this happening.

Onomatopoeia
August 10, 2008, 07:21 PM
well regardless of whether or not these chapters advance the story along, they aren't filler. in fact, there is no filler in the manga.

the very meaning of "filler anime" is that it is non-canon and has nothing to do with the actual main storyline. it is "filler" to be shown while the real stuff is being made and caught up. and the filler is always stuff that was not in the manga.

everything in the manga is canon and contributes to the main storyline, therefore, not filler.

and besides, these fights are all about the attack on, and the defending of the four pillars, which are the key to keeping the fake Karakura Town up.
this is quite important, actually. not to mention that it's fun to watch the best of the Lieutenants/weaker characters (minus Yachiru) fight.

if the defenders of the pillars were Momo, Rangiku, Omaeda, and Iba, then i would bitch and complain like everyone else. thankfully we got Ikkaku, Yumichika, Hisagi, and Kira. and i seem to be one of a small handful who isn't hating these chapters.


Thats why we call it Filler Manga. Filler Manga is manga that does not advance the plot in anyway. It also did not need to come up, in fact it only came up in the last minute to stall something else. This is Filler Manga get over it. It's not bad but it's still Filler Manga

Why does everyone think Yachiru is so strong just out of curiosity? She scared an unranked messenger thats not exactly amazing.

And seriously if Rangiku and Momo showed up they'd make up for Omaeda and Iba easy(well maybe not Omaeda but he might die). I for one can't get enough of Crazy B*tch she's hilarious.

Whats your problem with Rangiku? First you rank her at Rukia level(which should not happen ever) and now you think she wouldn't be able to take on Kira's spot. She's even closer to Gin from what we've seen.

ryanzokuken
August 10, 2008, 08:16 PM
Yachiru scaring away the messenger wasn't that big of a deal. it's a small hint at her having high level reiatsu, as her spirit energy took was visible and took on the shape of a scary face, somewhat like Ichigo and Kenpachi's did on their final charge.

the reasons i think she's strong are

A) she's the Lieutenant of Squad 11. She's a seat higher than Ikkaku. and before, i thought this was just because of Kenpachi's say-so. like she got to be Lieutenant because he liked her. but then back when Hitsugaya, Ikkaku, Yumi, Renji, and Rangiku show up at Ichigo's school, there was a part when Ikkaku and Rangiku were bickering and Rangiku said if he didn't behave, she would tell Yachiru on him, and he seemed genuinely frightened and apologized. to frighten Ikkaku is quite something.


as for Momo, ever since Aizen became the main villain, she became useless. she has decent skills, but her emotional instability and naive perspective make her look like a fool and make her a liability in this whole struggle. she's too weak minded, easily manipulated, and she clings to Aizen. even still, she defends him and suggests that maybe he's doing what he's doing either for some just cause, or because Gin, whom she thinks is the real evil mastermind, is twisting his arm.

Rangiku-i don't have a problem with her. i just don't see her as an interesting character or a useful ally on the battlefield. her zanpakuto is one of those "wow...really? that's lame" kind of zanpakuto. like the Squad 1 Lieutenants zanpakuto. what does it do? his katana changes into a rapier. Rangiku's blade turns into smoke and ash. how does that hurt people? they breathe it in and it makes them cough and they then suffocate after a few minutes? cuz the whole "ashes cut them" bit, i find that hard to buy. either way, it seems like it's only usefulness has already been shown. countering Kira's zanpakuto. and anyways, beyond that, she hasn't shown any other skill or power. i think if she was defending a pillar here, she would be defeated and her pillar would be destroyed. i don't dislike her or anything. just saying.

but i would still say that Rukia would defeat her. we should have an "Oponents that Rukia might be able to defeat without getting her ass kicked like usual" thread in the biblioteca. :p

igotthegoods
August 10, 2008, 09:23 PM
but i would still say that Rukia would defeat her. we should have an "Oponents that Rukia might be able to defeat without getting her ass kicked like usual" thread in the biblioteca. :p
i guess we don't have a thread like that :p, but what we do have is a thread for discussing the vice-captains located here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=396). please take the strength discussion of the vice-captains who are not appearing in current chapters there. thanks ^^

Andonan
August 10, 2008, 10:05 PM
Well I'm quite sure we will see the death of the next Arrancarr next chapter Ikkaku is too bad ass for these guys ahahaha :p

hyn_pride93
August 10, 2008, 10:18 PM
I think that in the next chapter we will be seeing a little of Yumichika probably and then Ikkaku's battle will be shown and everything.

Besides ONO, this isn't a filler manga at all. The only thing that has ever been filler manga so far, that I've seen, was the Gaiden Arc and this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/303.1/).

Those really didn't do anything with the plot of the story at all. The Gaiden was awesome, yes, but it also didn't progress the plot of the story. The only part that really moved the plot along a little was the very last page of the Gaiden had the Vizards leaving for where ever they were headed off to. All the Gaiden did for us was to give us info on what happened to them back in SS and who they were and what not.

The Four Pillars battle is what we call MANGA. These battles that are happening are helping the plot of the story progress. Why? Because Aizen them are trapped and his espada are there to help him. How did Baragan try to help? By sending his fraccion off to destroy something that get them closer to their goal. What's their goal? To make the key to the King's realm. What for? So that Aizen can rule!!

Onomatopoeia
August 10, 2008, 10:56 PM
Gaiden's are (usually) not filler because they go under category of giving information on the plot and why things happen. This Gaiden was extermely important for the plot because up until that point their were way to many holes in the plot. This cleaned it up quite a bit and explained how the Vizards were created. Eventually a Gaiden explaining this had to come around.

The Four Pillar Battle on the other hand didn't have to come up at all for the plot to proceed or make sense. It's simply a stall for the Espada Captain Battle .Or they didn't have to show the battles and simply show us that they Fraccions and F4 were about to fight. Instead he showed them fight for no real reason. Filler is also noticeable if it makes problems for the main Plot(as in right now were getting a what 15-30 minute fight and the Captains/Espada are doing what?).

As for the last part thats what we in the Biz call Hitsufiller XD

eddy26
August 11, 2008, 12:41 AM
I don't know why people are crying so much about these fights. If you really have no patience then stop reading bleach for a month or so while these fights are taking place stop complaining that this is filler manga. I've stopped watching the anime once it started the filler arc but I plan to watch the anime once again when the filler ends. I know there are people out there who like Kira and Hisagi and want to watch them fight. Plus I think it would be lame having the fraccion of the top three espada actually fight captains. The captains should fight the espada not the flunkies if I'm going to see Kyoraku, Ukitake, and Soifon use bankai I want it to be against strong opponents. Sorry about that little rant there but I hate reading all this posts complaining about the chapters.
As far as next chapter prediction I think it'll be the Kira fight not the Ikkaku battle. The reason is because Kira's opponent has already released. I actually think that if Baragan's fraccion gets killed off easily like this it means that he is not the top espada. As far as Kira I don't think he'll have bankai his shikai is pretty deadly by itself. The arrancar looks like he is into air battles so Kira hits his zanpaktou enough times it'll make that Arrancar come down to the ground. I've always though that if Kira fought Gin it would slow down Gin a little. Gin shoots Shinzo out so if Kira blocks it that would make the blade heavier so Gin wouldn't be able to shoot it out quickly. Kira would get massacred in a real battle against Gin but just comparing their zanpaktou Wabisuke is a nice counter to Shinzo.

Onomatopoeia
August 11, 2008, 01:20 AM
Lol Eddy theirs a big difference between not liking an Arc of a Manga and hating that arc. I think considering how fillerish this is it's a very good group of battles (so far). Course Yumi's battle had to be good since his Shikai is so haxed.

Anyways I think'll be Ikkaku because he's already used Shikai while Kira hasn't and the descending order thing.

hyn_pride93
August 11, 2008, 04:22 AM
My opinion on the matter of who is going to fight next is starting to shift. At first, I thought that we would be seeing Ikkaku fight because it would make more sense to save those who have actual meaning in their battle to fight towards the end where their battles would be most memorable and used to make the transition to the Espada/Captain fights.

Well, after thinking things through, we might see a little of Ikkaku at first and maybe see him defeat Po, but then we'll probably switch over to Hisagi. Then we'll see him throughout the rest of the chapter and then have him release at the end if his opponent gets too tough. Hisagi's Arrancar is pretty cool btw. I think that we'll get an interesting fight out of them.

As for Kira's fight. I wouldn't expect to see it just yet. Kira is the one shinigami out of the F4 right now that is mentally unstable with Gin still yet. He's kind of like Momo, except he isn't protecting him, but super pissed and filled with hatred because of him. With that, we'll probably see him at the very end of the Four Pillars battle.

ShaunMati1
August 11, 2008, 09:54 AM
What i sorta cant wait for is kira's fight. U know when that if kira fights we are gonna see comments from Gin, which is always good it gives more info about his mysterious character. I also hope that we dont get a long conclusion from the yumi coolhorn fight. I just hope it can transition to the next fight in the beginning of the chapter. I feel that ikkaku might be next just cuz we have already seen him fight, we have seen yumi fight a little either. But one thing i havent seen much in blrach is hisagi and kira fighting so im sure kubo will save those for last.

xZerapHx
August 11, 2008, 10:40 AM
I am eager to see hisagis shikai..... like most people here i guess -.-

i think he'll make ikkakus fight a little swifter than the previous fights we've had with him (don't think he'll need the bankai considering the rest aren't in that transformation state but still kicking ass)

then i would like to see what Gin has to say about kira.... he seems to have confidence in kira's battle ability at least

drakend
August 11, 2008, 11:27 AM
Excuse me but do we have to go through the fight of all the four pillar shinigamis and then we'll have gotei 6 vs top three arrancars? Will this be finished by Christmas?!? :D

winterwyrm
August 11, 2008, 12:02 PM
fraid so, drake, it seems kubo wants to put that fight off as long as possible, we will probably have a "gathering data" week after the four guardians, then we will definitely have some kind of hueco mundo action or another, then another "collecting data" chapter, if he really wants to torture us and destroy the suspense, he may even have a few chapters of talking, whereas he really should have just skipped to simultaneous fighting, either with guardians or without, that would really make this manga something epic.

Seriously kubo, not even a background glimpse of the fighting? How stupid is it to just have these massively powerful enemies just floating around and staring at each other, especially a pissed off Yamamoto. DO SOMETHING!

patedecarne
August 11, 2008, 12:08 PM
drakend, the problem now is that Kubo cannot just skip the upcoming fights;

Yumi's fight already is over, but still he must show the other 3 to advance in the plot;

as much I want to see the big fishes fight, we must wait until these 3 fights are over; but fortunately, I don't think we'll wait until Christmas, probably in the next chapter another fight will be settled; probably Kira's fight, because Findol was preparing his release...

manga_freaky
August 11, 2008, 12:52 PM
This is getting down right ridiculous. With all those arrancars and ex arrancars in HM desperately trying to prove their worth why only four came out to fight. And on top of everything it looks to me that those arrancars and shinigamis are not trying to destroy/protect the pillars but more like taunting one another. It takes the seriousness out of it. You know where is the good old bad ass SS story like with a life time twist and betrayal that we've all experienced?!

Doombot
August 11, 2008, 01:06 PM
They are protecting the pillars. Yumi isn't a "serious" character. I find these chapters interesting because the 11th Squaders refuse to use their shikai or bankai with others around and will do so even do death. Think back in the SS Rukia Rescue arc.

Ikkaku could have beaten Ichigo if he used his bankai. Ichigo had no clue how to use his bankai so Ikkaku would have just totally overwhelmed him.

My prediction is the upcoming chapters is Ikkaku is going to forced to show his bankai and sooner or later be forced to fill into one of the missing captain roles.

OhDearMoshe
August 11, 2008, 01:42 PM
My prediction is the upcoming chapters is Ikkaku is going to forced to show his bankai and sooner or later be forced to fill into one of the missing captain roles.

I hope so because I do like Ikkaku.

UchihaMadara
August 11, 2008, 02:31 PM
The real fighting will probably start to begin before Ikkaku releases, so just like before he will say "well everyone is too busy to notice anyways."

drakend
August 11, 2008, 02:37 PM
The real fighting will probably start to begin before Ikkaku releases, so just like before he will say "well everyone is too busy to notice anyways."
When Ichigo first relased his bankai Hitsugaya and Matsumoto noticed tens of miles away, now evreyone is too busy? I love these inconsistencies in Bleach... :D

Onomatopoeia
August 11, 2008, 02:47 PM
When Ichigo first relased his bankai Hitsugaya and Matsumoto noticed tens of miles away, now evreyone is too busy? I love these inconsistencies in Bleach... :D

Look at Tousen and Kido those are far more inconsistent then Bankai's. Remember guys Bankai's are extremely easy to notice because of the reitsu that explodes out, the screaming of the word "BANKAI" usually helps to.

hyn_pride93
August 11, 2008, 08:20 PM
Look at Tousen and Kido those are far more inconsistent then Bankai's. Remember guys Bankai's are extremely easy to notice because of the reitsu that explodes out, the screaming of the word "BANKAI" usually helps to.

Exactly. It's a dead give away when people start screaming, "Bankai!", and then all this reiatsu goes BOOM-WHOOSH. How can you miss that? Especially if you're not that far away from other shinigami. I mean Ikkaku can't go around screaming bankai now because he heard Yumi's laughing. If he could hear Yumi what's makes people think that Yumi won't be able for him to scream bankai, and then have his reiatsu explode? If that happens then Ikkaku's secret will be revealed.

BurningDragonFly
August 11, 2008, 09:31 PM
All i can say about this chapter is....Thank you God. I wanna See Hisagi or Kira Fight now.

:offtopic2 And something that's bugged me:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/318/11/
5th Panel, person on the left...WHO IS THAT!
It's not Halibel or Stark's Fraccion, Did they replaced that Person for Coolhorn? I'm Freaking Confused here? :yaha

Devil-buster
August 11, 2008, 09:50 PM
All i can say about this chapter is....Thank you God. I wanna See Hisagi or Kira Fight now.

:offtopic2 And something that's bugged me:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/318/11/
5th Panel, person on the left...WHO IS THAT!
It's not Halibel or Stark's Fraccion, Did they replaced that Person for Coolhorn? I'm Freaking Confused here? :yaha

ya good point....i think kubo made a mistake....or there may be a fifth fraccion for baragan...otherwise that is definitely a plot hole....

I would like to see ikkaku fight next chapter....its time for some bankai action

bittman
August 11, 2008, 10:15 PM
I'll go with a fifth fraccion only because Kubo makes few mistakes with his unique character designs.

I want Kira next chapter, but Hisagi is likely. Ikakku likes to drag out his fights, so I doubt we'll see the end of it soon.

BurningDragonFly
August 11, 2008, 10:34 PM
I'll go with a fifth fraccion only because Kubo makes few mistakes with his unique character designs.

No, there were only 4 when he walked out of the Hole in the sky, and he sent his all his fraccion against the 4 pillars. but good point though.:yaha

And I agree, There needs to be more :shu and maybe :ikka

hossice
August 11, 2008, 10:44 PM
coolhorn was crouching when he sent him. he may have been hidden until then. behind baragan.

Quetz
August 11, 2008, 10:55 PM
Good to finally see yumichika's shikai in its entirety, very fitting for his character. As much as I hate to say it, i'd say we'll see the other vice captain (not kira) in action next, which is sort of annoying....

Onomatopoeia
August 11, 2008, 11:06 PM
Barragans 5th Fraccion might have been his strongest which is why he didn't send her(?)? Perhaps he only let his strongest make that throne. Since Coolhorn defintely wasn't too powerful.

Andonan
August 11, 2008, 11:55 PM
No it might just be someone else's fraccion, it looks like someone we've seen before, maybe Halibels? I dunno it's not really worth paying much attention to though, not really a big deal ahahahaha

I'm fairly certain we'll see Ikkaku next, we saw him this chapter with his shikai I really doubt we'll go to someone else, I'm thinking Ikkaku, Hisagi, Kira.....Kira has become my fav of the 4 for some odd reason ahahaha

hyn_pride93
August 12, 2008, 02:48 AM
Are you calling it gay because the Cool Horn was a trany thing? Or because Yumi is obsessed with his beauty? or both?

This thread really doesn't need anymore slam for the four pillars battle so if anyone wants to slam any of these fights, please avoid it because many don't want to have to read posts like those. Many people are enjoying these fights so if you are brave enough to slam them, be prepared.

Andonan
August 12, 2008, 03:42 AM
Well said hyn :)

I will say that everyone is entitled to there opinion but there is no point repeating the opinion of half of this thread. If you want to insult these fights, read the previous 12 pages and say something that no one else has......

basterd
August 12, 2008, 05:22 AM
Sorry if this has ever been mentioned before, but started to read at MH for about 30-40 chapters ago.
PPL are talking about how the Fraccions of Barragan should be the strongest if he is n1 Espada, and his Fraccions doesn't seem strong enough for him to be n1 Espada.
But where does it say that n1 Espada has the strongest Fraccion?
Only page I have read that says anything about how strong the Fraccion is, is this page where Zayzel (spelling?) says that every Espada gets to choose any Arrancar from n11 and below:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/272/12/
So IMO there aren't any chance that n1 Espada chooses the strongest Arrancar. They just chooses those that are closest to them from the beginning. Like (yes, i know this isn't proven but seems to be the most relevant and true) Grimmjow's Fraccion was those he had met in his earlier life. Like Barragan's Fraccion seems to have had him as a king for a long time, depending on how highly they speak of him. Like Stark's Fraccion seems to be as close to him as a girlfriend/best friend.

Sorry for that sidenote there, but just seemed to fit a bit in the Pillar fight with the Fraccion.

As prediction for next chapter I see it go either two ways. Ikkaku's fight is shown as the next just do have Kira and Hisagi as last fights (cause of them beeing previous VC to Gin and Tousen). Or that Kira's fight is the next, cause of his opponent already released.

Starky-08
August 12, 2008, 06:06 AM
I also have to agree with Hyn, I for one enjoy this fight and am looking forward to the Ikkaku and Po fight, as for the other fraccion guy, I personally think he is another Fraccion of Barragan's, I don't see kubo making a stupid mistake like that.

jerger
August 12, 2008, 09:56 AM
its weird... because it takes some of the evilness out of the halos... making them look fun, personable etc... it is the gayest fight of all time in all mangas... which i dont care it is funny..

but... it takes the evilness and importance out of the story, kind of wasn't needed. they could have a gay character fight someone that isn't gay... its kind of odd with duality.

maybe thats his point... that there are dualities in the world... good... evil... but they have so much in common.

gold349
August 12, 2008, 10:09 AM
Yumichika thanked coolhorn for that black vines attack, no body is still able to see yumichika zanpaktou power, he was so pleased about it but I think he would have ended up resorting to using his zanpaktou shikai ability to win.

Onomatopoeia
August 12, 2008, 12:55 PM
I actually liked the fight between Coolhorn and Yumichika. It was a good fight and we finally got a good picture of Yumi's Shikai. But looking at the big picture I can see why some people wouldn't like this battle. It kinda ruins all the tension that we were trying to get.

Giga_Gaia
August 12, 2008, 01:24 PM
Sorry if this has ever been mentioned before, but started to read at MH for about 30-40 chapters ago.
PPL are talking about how the Fraccions of Barragan should be the strongest if he is n1 Espada, and his Fraccions doesn't seem strong enough for him to be n1 Espada.
But where does it say that n1 Espada has the strongest Fraccion?
Only page I have read that says anything about how strong the Fraccion is, is this page where Zayzel (spelling?) says that every Espada gets to choose any Arrancar from n11 and below:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/272/12/
So IMO there aren't any chance that n1 Espada chooses the strongest Arrancar. They just chooses those that are closest to them from the beginning. Like (yes, i know this isn't proven but seems to be the most relevant and true) Grimmjow's Fraccion was those he had met in his earlier life. Like Barragan's Fraccion seems to have had him as a king for a long time, depending on how highly they speak of him. Like Stark's Fraccion seems to be as close to him as a girlfriend/best friend.

Sorry for that sidenote there, but just seemed to fit a bit in the Pillar fight with the Fraccion.

As prediction for next chapter I see it go either two ways. Ikkaku's fight is shown as the next just do have Kira and Hisagi as last fights (cause of them beeing previous VC to Gin and Tousen). Or that Kira's fight is the next, cause of his opponent already released.

It never mentionned anywhere that Barragan is number 1. His number is still unknown, just like Stark and Halibel.

My money is on Stark being number 1 and Halibel number 2

Megaman84
August 12, 2008, 01:43 PM
Im looking forward to Hisagi Shuuei's fight. I remember reading somewhere that he releases in the second bleach film? i don't know if that is correct or not, anyone know? i haven't seen it - waiting for subs.

On another note, i have been quite dissapointed at people moaning about the 4 pillar fights saying i can't wait for the captains bla bla bla (quite often with appauling use of spelling, vocabulary and grammar i might add) What makes bleach is the story in between - character development, dialogue etc. As mentioned before if your'e going to post here slaying the current chapters because you want to read the captain v espada fights, i would suggest re-considering your post.

Bring on the remaining 3 fights! Yumichika - ledge!

Starky-08
August 12, 2008, 02:10 PM
Agreed, I look forward to the next 3 fights, and I think it will go Ikkaku vs Po, then Kira vs Abirama and the Shuuhei vs Findor.

Onomatopoeia
August 12, 2008, 02:55 PM
Ikkaku is going to release Bankai during his battle and everyone will find out about it. You don't think that panel about hearing Yumi laugh was just their for kicks and giggles do you? If he screams something like Bankai everyone will know about his little secret.

Boagrious
August 12, 2008, 03:06 PM
Lolol... I never said that I didn't like the battle between them two because they ''were gay'', we will never know. Those things wont be revealed because of their importance. It is really not a big deal, and everybody has their right to post their own opinion. Actually the fight was pretty cool, we saw the second release of his shikai, making me think that he was holding back from releasing his bankai in this battle, simply he didn't need it.

Again ''jumpy people that know everything'', I liked this chapter, and please try to understand the post before you reply with something totally out of context, placing me as well as you in a very uncomfortable position. You could have asked what I meant before you posted ''blasting'' me. Lol!!

drakend
August 13, 2008, 02:44 AM
I'm one of the guys who aren't very happy about how the plot is developing at the moment. I would like to specify I'm not very happy not because of the fights, but because of the way they're shown... they're too sequential, it seems as I'm writing a computer program almost... first Yumichka vs Cool Horn, then Ikkaku vs big guy. then Kira vs Griffith... I would like if all of the three remaining fights will be mixed together and ended in 2-3 chapters, showing only the most crucial moments of the fight.

hyn_pride93
August 13, 2008, 02:54 AM
I'm one of the guys who aren't very happy about how the plot is developing at the moment. I would like to specify I'm not very happy not because of the fights, but because of the way they're shown... they're too sequential, it seems as I'm writing a computer program almost... first Yumichka vs Cool Horn, then Ikkaku vs big guy. then Kira vs Griffith... I would like if all of the three remaining fights will be mixed together and ended in 2-3 chapters, showing only the most crucial moments of the fight.

Actually Drakend, I would really like that too. If Kubo meshed the remaining fights together and showing the key/crucial points in their battles would be good enough. But it seems that not only is Kubo stalling for time so that he can draw the Captain/Espada battles, he is also giving us some hints that he might be planning something for the former VCs of Gin/Tousen. Mainly Kira at this point

drakend
August 13, 2008, 04:17 AM
Actually Drakend, I would really like that too. If Kubo meshed the remaining fights together and showing the key/crucial points in their battles would be good enough. But it seems that not only is Kubo stalling for time so that he can draw the Captain/Espada battles, he is also giving us some hints that he might be planning something for the former VCs of Gin/Tousen. Mainly Kira at this point
If Kubo uses 2 chapter per fight then we have:
2 chapters for Yumichka vs Cool Horn: DONE!
2 chapters for Ikkaku vs big guy: TO BE DONE!
2 chapters for Kira vs Griffith: TO BE DONE!
2 chapter for Hisagi vs someone: TO BE DONE!

Then we have the top 3 espada vs gotei 6. 6/3=2 so we should have 2 captains for each top espada. Let's be optimist and Kubo uses 2 chapter for each fight:
2 chapters for first fight + 2 chapters second fight + 2 chapters for third fight. In total we have 12 chapters, which means 12/4=3 months to wait. For middle November the fights should finish...
Then there is Aizen and friends: after that we can go back to Ichigo vs Ulquiorra, MAYBE.
I, and most of other dudes who whined as well, don't dislike watching others' fights, but they dislike to see them in a boring sequence. I hope the scenario I described won't become reality otherwise it would be overkill... :(
I want to add another thing: what I like in anime and manga are plot twists, the suspence and such. For example I'm a true fan of Shirosaki and I would like to see him making a true rampage for some time, but I would hate 10 chapters of it. What I would like is 2-3 chapters of it, but mixed with emotional moments, shocks on Ichigo's friends' side and such but this should be shown only ONCE. Plot twists get old the same moment they're shown so the author can use them only ONCE in his story, otherwise they would become boring.

hyn_pride93
August 13, 2008, 05:04 AM
Wow Drakend... I too really hope that the battle sequence in which you have laid out for us does not happen. I believe that we'll be getting a mesh of this and that between the fights to come.

The only thing about your Shirosaki thing is, I think that's what Kubo will probably end up doing for Ichigo's battle with Ulq, or just have Ichigo stop time again and talk with Zangetsu. Maybe even learning something new.

Now, let me just get something off my mind here. I've been thinking about this since the begining of Bleach pretty much. When Ichigo released his zanpaktou into the shikai state for the first time, to be more exact. I noticed that Zangetsu's meaning was literally Cutting Moon. Then when he released bankai, Zangetsu was then revealed with his second name: Tensa Zangetsu. Meaning: Heavenly Chained Cutting Moon. Then we found out that his attacks name was called Getsuga Tenshou: Moon-fang, Piercer of the Heavens. Then I realized, hello, there has to be another attack that lies within Zangetsu. What I think that new ability is, is that Ichigo able to somehow make a Chain that can be as long as he wants it to be and on top of that, still have the same properties as GT. The only thing with that is, it's super confusing for someone like myself to try and figure it out on my own. So, what I'm trying to get at is, shouldn't there be an attack like that?

drakend
August 13, 2008, 05:43 AM
Now, let me just get something off my mind here. I've been thinking about this since the begining of Bleach pretty much. When Ichigo released his zanpaktou into the shikai state for the first time, to be more exact. I noticed that Zangetsu's meaning was literally Cutting Moon. Then when he released bankai, Zangetsu was then revealed with his second name: Tensa Zangetsu. Meaning: Heavenly Chained Cutting Moon. Then we found out that his attacks name was called Getsuga Tenshou: Moon-fang, Piercer of the Heavens. Then I realized, hello, there has to be another attack that lies within Zangetsu. What I think that new ability is, is that Ichigo able to somehow make a Chain that can be as long as he wants it to be and on top of that, still have the same properties as GT. The only thing with that is, it's super confusing for someone like myself to try and figure it out on my own. So, what I'm trying to get at is, shouldn't there be an attack like that?
If I understood it correctly you want Ichigo to become somewhat like him?
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/8238/shunfo9.jpg
:D

As an aside: your restating of the various names of Ichigo's sword and attacks made me realize something. Where do we have a cut moon? In HM... is it a coincidence? I don't know, but this could be an hint that Zangetsu isn't an ordinary zanpaktou but an hybrid one or, if you prefer, one of a pair: the black one (=shinigami) and the white one (=hollow) to begin with.
Also Getsuga Tensho meaning "Moon-fang, Piercer of the Heavens" could mean that Ichigo won't be on such friendly terms with the the king's dimension because Aizen referred to that dimension as "heaven" once.

Revan46
August 13, 2008, 05:44 AM
Also let's keep in mind that Kubo is tricky. Most likely he'll cut to Ichigo-kun and Ulqui-kun after the Four Pillar battles are done and over with. Then he'll come back to the captains, and then kinda do back and forth for a while. Like 2 chapters of Ichi vs Ulqui, and then 2 chapters of say...Hitsugaya and Soifon vs Halibel? I guess we'll wait and see. But I wonder if the new chapter we'll see like Barragan being surprised Cool Horn is dead.

Andonan
August 13, 2008, 06:07 AM
I'd guess the next chapter will start with one of the either two Arrancarr going "ahahaha one of your men already die, you suck" ahahaha :p

patz
August 13, 2008, 06:07 AM
I don't know if it's been said but I've heard there's no Jump this week, meaning there's no chapter. Can anyone confirm that?

x_ploit_x
August 13, 2008, 08:01 AM
I don't know if it's been said but I've heard there's no Jump this week, meaning there's no chapter. Can anyone confirm that?

Yeah, Ichigo, Naruto etc. are in Beijing.:D


*I think the Captains are going to eventually get OWNAGED, not owned... but a full fledge capital OWNAGE in red . Then Ichigo's papa is going to come to the rescue. Why? Because I still dont see the point of Kubo revealing him to be a seemingly strong shinigami for no future purpose.

Hello_Moto
August 13, 2008, 10:31 AM
It never mentionned anywhere that Barragan is number 1. His number is still unknown, just like Stark and Halibel.

My money is on Stark being number 1 and Halibel number 2

Barragan is obviously at least number 2 hes commanding people around and stuff making it obvious he 1 or 2 and its obvious he is stronger than haribel read this he brags basically how he is stronger but then she says but aizen is even stronger basically http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/318/11/ and barragan get his own throne while everyone else stands http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/318/12/ and also you see when he says ill be giving orders then says u better not have a problem with that he must be stronger than them for him to threaten them without them saying anything back


My guess


Barragan most likely 1
Stark-2
Haribel weakest

drakend
August 13, 2008, 10:35 AM
Barragan most likely 1
Stark-2
Haribel weakest
From how you word it you make Halibel look as strong as Hanataro... :D
On these levels weak means he can defeat one or two captains, while strong means being a dreadnaught.

Fortisdiablos
August 13, 2008, 11:28 AM
Yeah, Ichigo, Naruto etc. are in Beijing.:D


*I think the Captains are going to eventually get OWNAGED, not owned... but a full fledge capital OWNAGE in red . Then Ichigo's papa is going to come to the rescue. Why? Because I still dont see the point of Kubo revealing him to be a seemingly strong shinigami for no future purpose.

Well, Kubo said he'd be doing a Isshin Gaiden.

Doombot
August 13, 2008, 12:28 PM
I don't see the point of having the Vizards unless they turn on SS. The sides are totally skewed toward good. So unless Aizen has an unseen force (which I hope is not the case) then the Vizards will have a little rebellion of their own. Don't get me wrong I don't see them joining Aizen but I do see them creating a 3rd faction which in its own way will give Aizen a better chance.

manga_freaky
August 13, 2008, 12:31 PM
Well that gaiden better be good. At least better than the Aizen one. I mean Bleach has gotten so dull for some reason. You think that Kubo should just take some serious time off like the Gantz mangaka did and rework the storyline.

Doombot
August 13, 2008, 12:33 PM
I agree with the HM s/l it just got too dragged out and really so many Espada were killed that we really didn't see coming. The only bright spots were Mayuri and I suppose Kenpachi... if you liked rigged people which get power-ups by using two hands. Don't get me wrong I enjoy crazy Kenny but... c'mon.

Mystic Moon
August 13, 2008, 12:50 PM
Coolhorn had his back facing forward when we saw him in the first 4 panels when they were sent to fight. So maybe thats why we didnt see him. Its most likely gonna be Ikkaku first though cuz he was the only one that was shown during Yumi's fight with Coolhorn.

hajialibaig
August 13, 2008, 01:56 PM
Expect a 4 word spoiler this week too....the pace is just ridiculously slow...

Onomatopoeia
August 13, 2008, 03:36 PM
All right someone else who wants an independant Vizard group because right now the Vizards are the strongest group (with ease). Either side they help will get wiped out. The vizards have power equal to when all the captains are in the Gotei 13 imo.

xZerapHx
August 13, 2008, 04:48 PM
i see the vaizards getting revenge on aizen... don't anyone remember that aizen is the reason all of them were banned from SS & had to live in exile in the real world?

i see aizen maybe killing off some more captains when he is free from his confinement, then shuuhei & kira will duel against their ex captains but wthout results.... then Ishida Ryuuken & Kurosaki Issin will come to the rescue with everyone else that hasn't joined in the fight (HM trapped chars, urahara etc)

Grimjaww
August 13, 2008, 08:03 PM
There are 3 factions. 1. Aizen's crew. 2. Soul Society. 3. Urahara's crew, which consists of the Vizards, Ichigo, and the 2 dads, they are the strongest.

So it is obvious that Aizen will lose since its 2v1, but he seems pretty confident, anyone else think he has some sort of ace?

Revan46
August 13, 2008, 08:03 PM
Sucks that we're not getting Bleach this week :( I was really hoping to see Shuuhei or Kira battle this week....

hossice
August 13, 2008, 08:46 PM
how do u know? cuz of the spoilers? no they just come out late cuz the chapter comes out later now. and anyways it would of said in the last chapter.

the first half of the ch. will be yumi and coolhorn talking and coolhorn dies. then the other half of one fight. then the ch. after that the fight ends. and repeat. thats my opinion of how its gonna go.

notBowen
August 13, 2008, 08:55 PM
how do u know? cuz of the spoilers? no they just come out late cuz the chapter comes out later now. and anyways it would of said in the last chapter.

the first half of the ch. will be yumi and coolhorn talking and coolhorn dies. then the other half of one fight. then the ch. after that the fight ends. and repeat. thats my opinion of how its gonna go.
No WSJ, no chapter.

Mystic Moon
August 13, 2008, 09:27 PM
Plus, i think coolhorn already died. cuz all da flowers bloomed, and Coolhorn's rose thingy exploded.

Revan46
August 13, 2008, 09:29 PM
No WSJ, no chapter.

That and the fact that Bleach Exile has it right in the most recent update today. There will be no Bleach chapter or anime this week :(

Quetz
August 13, 2008, 10:00 PM
Plus, i think coolhorn already died. cuz all da flowers bloomed, and Coolhorn's rose thingy exploded.

Pretty sure yumichika explicitly stated that when the flowers bloom, you die.

hossice
August 13, 2008, 10:44 PM
well there r no naruto spoilers either. so does that mean no chapters for all mangas or just the WSJ ones?

Revan46
August 13, 2008, 11:30 PM
Probably just the Shonen Jump ones. Now let's get back to spoilers for next week's chapter! :P

igotthegoods
August 14, 2008, 12:30 AM
just to clear everything up about when the next chapter is coming out, please take a look at the announcement in the first post of this thread ^^;;

to reiterate, there is no WSJ this week and therefore no raw or spoilers. the next chapter can be expected around the 22nd. any further posts regarding this topic may find themselves deleted

ShaunMati1
August 14, 2008, 12:57 AM
Lol i dont think we can really keep predicting stuff about next chapter seeing as theres a whole other week to go through. If the manga was made better....meaning if it took longer for us to go through rather then skimming through it in 1 min then i wouldnt be as frustrated with this by week, but seeing as we have to wait 10 more days to read 1 min of manga well that gets me a bit frustrated. Hopefully we get to Kira and Hisagi quickly.

hyn_pride93
August 14, 2008, 01:53 AM
If I understood it correctly you want Ichigo to become somewhat like him?
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/8238/shunfo9.jpg
:D

As an aside: your restating of the various names of Ichigo's sword and attacks made me realize something. Where do we have a cut moon? In HM... is it a coincidence? I don't know, but this could be an hint that Zangetsu isn't an ordinary zanpaktou but an hybrid one or, if you prefer, one of a pair: the black one (=shinigami) and the white one (=hollow) to begin with.
Also Getsuga Tensho meaning "Moon-fang, Piercer of the Heavens" could mean that Ichigo won't be on such friendly terms with the the king's dimension because Aizen referred to that dimension as "heaven" once.

lol Yes actually! :p

But if Ichigo found out that his sword was actually a pair, I think that he still wouldn't use it to it's full potential unless Shirosaki was involved with it. lol

Andonan
August 14, 2008, 04:13 AM
Urgh no Manga what will I look forward to this week :( ahaahaha oh well

Quick question is Dattebyo shutting down or not, they said they would stop dubbing 2 weeks ago but since then have done 2 releases I' m confused, sorry if this shouldn't be asked just want to know.


Anyway as for predictions, perhaps Kubo will switch back to Ichigo, go something like 4 pillars: 2 chapters, Ichigo 1 chapter etc......

xZerapHx
August 14, 2008, 05:49 AM
Urgh no Manga what will I look forward to this week :( ahaahaha oh well

Quick question is Dattebyo shutting down or not, they said they would stop dubbing 2 weeks ago but since then have done 2 releases I' m confused, sorry if this shouldn't be asked just want to know.


Anyway as for predictions, perhaps Kubo will switch back to Ichigo, go something like 4 pillars: 2 chapters, Ichigo 1 chapter etc......

don't listen to DB.... they are just trolls, so you don't need to worry about them stopping now :eyeroll
if nothing else there will allways pop out new translators for the anime

basterd
August 14, 2008, 10:34 AM
It never mentionned anywhere that Barragan is number 1. His number is still unknown, just like Stark and Halibel.

My money is on Stark being number 1 and Halibel number 2

Never said that it has been mentioned anywhere, but it has been under discusison in this thread. Everything that I mentioned has, that's why I stated my oppinion on that point..


DB should never be trusted. They can fool you for one week, but they always keeps the goods coming ^^


As for WSJ, that's really sad to hear.. Since most of us seems to be waiting for ht 4 Pillars fight. But what a hell, it's gonna end some day, a week later or not.
Really like 4 Pillar fight, so I'm not in a rush :)


I feel like Vaizards will be on SS side. Previous Captains from Vaizard's time is gonna be shocked and ask questions like; "What are you doing here?". Hirako goes; "Saving your ass". And that ending the conversation cause V's really don't like SS and just wanna get rid of Aizen, 'cause of the hatred they have for him (though they also thank him for making them that strong).
But this will surely take a while, maybe when SS is in i really tight pinch against Espada. In the last minute or something like that.

Onomatopoeia
August 14, 2008, 03:38 PM
Actually I kinda feel that Kubo's going to have to work really hard on a eventualy Vizards come to save SS's ass scenario. A lot of highrankers have been inspired or worked with the Vizards before. I'm curious as to how Kubo will play it out.

Andonan
August 14, 2008, 08:50 PM
@halialibaig, EPIC DISPLAY PIC MATE, I'm totally jealous hahaha

Anyway thank you to the people who confirmed what I though about DB, god damn those guys, they pulled a similar stunt on April Fools too ahahaha :P,

Yeah it will be interesting to see what all the writers do with this break, I think it came at a really opportune time for Oda and (oh god memory lapse) Naruto's writer, but I think Bleach is quite predictable for the rest of the year, all the fights have been lined up, which is of course deliberate, hopefully Kubo can just work on presentation/ making Ikkaku's battle more epic ahahaha

Devil-buster
August 16, 2008, 12:20 AM
I am actually looking forward to the top four captains fighting...although we r not gonna see unohana...the other three should be awesome.....

my prediction.......next chapter is gonna be ikkaku....probably another power vs power match with ikkaku winning using bankai......then kira..then hisagi....

then probably barragan will attack himself or the fifth fraccion(that girl).....then hitsugaya will probably chase him down.....followed by soifon vs halibel.....and stark taking on shunsui (their attitudes are a match made in heaven)......and some other fights....

anyways I look forward to ikkaku fight...I hope kubo reveals something new....he is one of those characters who get lots of facetime and very little development....

also I dont think the vizards are the strongest group...ofcourse shinji and kensai are strong but the rest are average even with vizard powers.....may be lisa too...but thats cause she's got lots of sexy power....

Onomatopoeia
August 16, 2008, 12:29 AM
Are you Kidding? Rose and Love have been captains for 100+ years. They're probablly stronger then all the newer captains by a lot. Add in Vizard Mask+ lots of experience and we have 4 people who are all stronger then Ichigo and by a big amount. The VCs might all have Bankai since they've had the exclusive attention of 4 captains and plenty of time to train. Which means we might have 8(or 7 Hachi seems week to me) Bankai weilding Vizards. They would walk all over both groups. In a one on one match anyways.

llamapie
August 16, 2008, 01:21 AM
Are you Kidding? Rose and Love have been captains for 100+ years. They're probablly stronger then all the newer captains by a lot. Add in Vizard Mask+ lots of experience and we have 4 people who are all stronger then Ichigo and by a big amount. The VCs might all have Bankai since they've had the exclusive attention of 4 captains and plenty of time to train. Which means we might have 8(or 7 Hachi seems week to me) Bankai weilding Vizards. They would walk all over both groups. In a one on one match anyways.

Not to mention they made Ichigo look weak by comparison without even using shikai. This is a big chunk of evidence that they are vastly stronger than everyone else but no one knows about them. Also it gives room for Ichigo to grow, hopefully something like a training arc for him after this crap is done.

Devil-buster
August 16, 2008, 01:50 AM
Are you Kidding? Rose and Love have been captains for 100+ years. They're probablly stronger then all the newer captains by a lot. Add in Vizard Mask+ lots of experience and we have 4 people who are all stronger then Ichigo and by a big amount. The VCs might all have Bankai since they've had the exclusive attention of 4 captains and plenty of time to train. Which means we might have 8(or 7 Hachi seems week to me) Bankai weilding Vizards. They would walk all over both groups. In a one on one match anyways.

Actually rose and love were fairly new captains at that time....and over the past hundred years they have been in hiding.....just look at what a hundred year hiatus did to yoruichi.....the current captains have been in the battle front for the past 5 or 6 decades(guess since its less that 100), so they have probably improved more over the last 100 years than the vizards.......and training is not the same as battle experience as was eveident from the battle between ichigo and byakuya or renji and byakuya.....and there is a large difference even among captains.......zaraki could take on tousen and komomura with one hand with his eyepatch on.....

and apart from lisa...that green haired girl is a joke......and hachi is a kidou expert...i dont know how having vizard form could help him besides boost his kidou a little.....hiyori pratically crapped her pants just seeing ichigo's hollow...so....

and I dont think the vc's attained bankai....cause they seem to depend more on their hollow form to fight(shinji fought grimmjow with his mask rather than his release).....so i dont think they will train to attain bankai rather they will train to master their hollow forms more......

yamamoto, shunsui and ukitake are the strongest captains by far.......

again shinigami-hollow hybridization will only allow an individual to break their own barriers.....not the class barrier in general......a vc with a hollow mask may not be captain level as was seen with adjuhas arrancar.....a captain with a hollow mask may not be a stong as an uber captain like yamamoto or shunsui or ukitake......

and the part where vizards restrained ichigo.....he was just a wild beast then.....he had no motive no target no mind...he was just randomly attacking anyone in his sight......that doesnt mean that the sane ichigo cant match the vizards...and even when he was training with hiyori he wasnt fighting seriously like he fought with byakuya or kenpachi..also there r not many people who r stronger than ichigo in measures of reiatsu...he could match kenpachi's reiatsu level and could fight evenly with him and actually take him out...thats saying somethin....so strength comparison between vizards and ichigo is totally meaningless....shinji, kensai, and love or rose may be stronger but the others definately arent...

Onomatopoeia
August 16, 2008, 02:07 AM
Look at it this way Devil Buster. Ichigo's unrestrained Hollow form was at Captain Class at least(going by the fact that Ichigo is Captain Class and his Hollow has always seemed stronger). Now then all Vizards fought this Hollow and at the same time had to make sure to keep him alive. This usually as a generic rule makes battles twice as hard. An unrestrained beast is in some ways stronger then Ichigo because it goes by primordial insticts and will not pause like normal Ichigo does, it will simply attack and not pause . Which means Vizards battle against primoridal Ichigo was way beyond anything we saw in SS.

Yet we only saw one Shikai and a moment long Vizard Mask . And even then it was obvious they could have taken Ichigo out at any moment.

Besides their is no reason to believe that the Vizard Captains haven't been training constantly to keep their Vizards under control. As for Yoruich well she is actually an exception to the rule and extremely hard to argue over.Simply because I don't see any of the Vizard Captains or VC being in a cat suit for the last 100 years do you?

Rose was a new Captain yes but Love we have no idea. As for Hiyori well she was taken by surprise. Besides when Ichigo's full Hollow comes out he WTF stomped Byakuya. Hiyori in comparison did a better job then he did. SHe didn't even use her Shikai and was still able to hold him.

As for the last part, it's actually smarter for Shinji to use Vizard Mask then Bankai or Shikai because they might only be one shot things. Like Mayuri's or something more like Byakuya's more elaborate then needed.

Devil-buster
August 16, 2008, 02:40 AM
Look at it this way Devil Buster. Ichigo's unrestrained Hollow form was at Captain Class at least(going by the fact that Ichigo is Captain Class and his Hollow has always seemed stronger). Now then all Vizards fought this Hollow and at the same time had to make sure to keep him alive. This usually as a generic rule makes battles twice as hard. An unrestrained beast is in some ways stronger then Ichigo because it goes by primordial insticts and will not pause like normal Ichigo does, it will simply attack and not pause . Which means Vizards battle against primoridal Ichigo was way beyond anything we saw in SS.

Yet we only saw one Shikai and a moment long Vizard Mask . And even then it was obvious they could have taken Ichigo out at any moment.

Besides their is no reason to believe that the Vizard Captains haven't been training constantly to keep their Vizards under control. As for Yoruich well she is actually an exception to the rule and extremely hard to argue over.Simply because I don't see any of the Vizard Captains or VC being in a cat suit for the last 100 years do you?

Rose was a new Captain yes but Love we have no idea. As for Hiyori well she was taken by surprise. Besides when Ichigo's full Hollow comes out he WTF stomped Byakuya. Hiyori in comparison did a better job then he did. SHe didn't even use her Shikai and was still able to hold him.

As for the last part, it's actually smarter for Shinji to use Vizard Mask then Bankai or Shikai because they might only be one shot things. Like Mayuri's or something more like Byakuya's more elaborate then needed.

well an unrestrained ichigo may have more power but it is uncontrolled and undirected power.....similar to how ichigo used to be before he trained with urahara....he didnt know how to use his power....or similar to how oz in one piece was before moria brought him under control....when ichigo transformed he became a complete hollow...meaning has no meamory of any of ichigo's skills or experience.....dont know how to use his shikai or bankai...so even if it may be immensely more powerful, if that power is not channeled it is useless.....

actually hiyori didnt handle hollow ichgo well at all...she froze up.....the others had to restrain ichigo and break his mask.....

the vizards could have trained all they want.....but they will all hit a limit....hollow transformation does not make one endlessly powerful.....

remeber the whole of hueco mundo is under the control of a shinigami...and even arracars obey him...which itself is proof that there are people stronger than even hybrids......

Onomatopoeia
August 16, 2008, 03:06 AM
That last part has me confused... are you saying that Aizen is more powerful then the Vizards? Um maybe because he's AIZEN you know the invincible character of the series who took out 3 captains in quick succesion because he felt like it??? The main badguy in the series who could probablly take half of SS by himself! Besides the Vizards have never once tried to fight Aizen.

Complete hollow trained at one person it doesn't matter if he lost his experince that Hollow had all of it's power trained at one person. So it was directed and the fact that it was unrestrained is good, when Ichigo lets all of his power out or in other words unrestrained he can fight equally with Kenpachi. Thats way more powerful then Ichigo normally.

gold349
August 16, 2008, 04:05 AM
Aizen can only be this strong if he too has removed that barrier limiting his growth in all fields of shinigami arts, it will have to be shown so its clear why he is this strong. Far fetched I know but his zanpaktou is one of a kind, whether he can or not but what if he could control his hollow side with his zanpaktou power, complete hpnosis over his hollow, it would be one way of being so powerful at the same time not losing his mind and just going berserk who knows bit all I know is Ichigo needs major power ups to face him.

Devil-buster
August 16, 2008, 12:23 PM
I dont understand why people think that all shinigami are by defaulst weaker than vizards or all hollows are by default weaker than arrancars.....this is not true.....

a vastolorde may be a lot stronger than an adjuhas arrancar.........and a captain may be a lot stroner than a vc vizard....

even among vastolordes some may be vastly stronger than others.....so even if the lower one breaks its personal limit in becoming an arrancar, there is no guarantee that it can reach the power limit of the higher one......

for example....adjuhas were said to be able to fight evenly with captains and perhaps even defeat them......but so far the strongest adjuhas arrancar we have see is noitora and he lost to kenpachi who is a captain....in fact all adjuhas arrancar who have been introduced have been defeated by shinigami except grimmjow.....and adjuhas arrancar are supposedly stronger than regular adjuhas.......

so from what we know so far....there is no proof that hybrids are by default stronger than the real thing.....

@ono....when ichigo fought kenpachi all he had was raw power.....which suited kenpachi who couldnt use shikai, bankai or shunpo or kido.....but I believe a bankai ichigo could have fought better with kenpachi because he would have had the speed advantage and also his strength would have been more controlled and not wasted.....if he had fought at the same level he fought against kenpachi with byakuya, ichigo would have died in a sec.....

Onomatopoeia
August 16, 2008, 02:45 PM
Ichigo had to use all his unrestrained power to equal Zaraki. It's well known that Ichigo vs Zaraki was probablly when Ichigo was at his strongest. Ichigo has never tapped into that much power since then. Besides Zaraki has mad reflex skillz he could still hit Ichigo in his Bankai mode. Hollow Ichigo could tap into even more of that Reitsu. And remember Hollow Ichigo destroyed Byakuya and was only out for a few seconds with both of them in Bankai while all the Vizards were doing fine against him with only one going Shikai and one going Vizard and even then just for a moment. For an entire 10 minutes(how long was it exactly 15 minutes I can't remember) they held him off while keeping him alive.

And you kinda just proved my point. A Vastro Lorde could be stronger then an Adjuchas Arrancar. But a Vastro Lorde Arrancar is defintely stronger then a Vastro Lorde Hollow. The conversion of that is an SS Captain will defintely get beat by a Vizard Captain(unless your counting the obscenely strong guys AKA Yamma who they would tie with probablly)

And you know as well as I do that your just doing guesswork to the extremes. Theirs little proof that a VL can be that strong.

Look at it this way, Adjuchas Hollow can be beat by a normal VC(Hitsugaya says so) an Adjuchas Arrancar can fight evenly with captains(unless thee captains are specificlly made to fight them AKA Mayuri vs Szayel, Byakuya vs Zommari, Zaraki vs Nnoitra) and even then Nnoitra was able to force Zaraki to use Kendo which he didn't use on Ichigo.

Now then the equivalent of an Adjucha is a VC add in the fact that 3 out of 4 of these VCs might have Bankai and well you can figure out the rest.

Vastro Lorde's are the equivalent of a Captain(VLs are still a bit stronger though). So a Captain who has Vizard powers would be equal to a VL Arrancar who in turn is stronger then nearly all the captains(except Yamma but it's probablly a tie with a VL Arrancar and Vizard Captain).

Devil-buster
August 16, 2008, 03:04 PM
Ichigo had to use all his unrestrained power to equal Zaraki. It's well known that Ichigo vs Zaraki was probablly when Ichigo was at his strongest. Ichigo has never tapped into that much power since then. Besides Zaraki has mad reflex skillz he could still hit Ichigo in his Bankai mode. Hollow Ichigo could tap into even more of that Reitsu. And remember Hollow Ichigo destroyed Byakuya and was only out for a few seconds with both of them in Bankai while all the Vizards were doing fine against him with only one going Shikai and one going Vizard and even then just for a moment. For an entire 10 minutes(how long was it exactly 15 minutes I can't remember) they held him off while keeping him alive.

And you kinda just proved my point. A Vastro Lorde could be stronger then an Adjuchas Arrancar. But a Vastro Lorde Arrancar is defintely stronger then a Vastro Lorde Hollow. The conversion of that is an SS Captain will defintely get beat by a Vizard Captain(unless your counting the obscenely strong guys AKA Yamma who they would tie with probablly)

And you know as well as I do that your just doing guesswork to the extremes. You have no proof to backup what your saying and you know it.

Look at it this way, Adjuchas Hollow can be beat by a normal VC(Hitsugaya says so) an Adjuchas Arrancar can fight evenly with captains(unless thee captains are specificlly made to fight them AKA Mayuri vs Szayel, Byakuya vs Zommari, Zaraki vs Nnoitra) and even then Nnoitra was able to force Zaraki to use Kendo which he didn't use on Ichigo.

Now then the equivalent of an Adjucha is a VC add in the fact that 3 out of 4 of these VCs might have Bankai and well you can figure out the rest.

Vastro Lorde's are the equivalent of a Captain(VLs are still a bit stronger though). So a Captain who has Vizard powers would be equal to a VL Arrancar who in turn is stronger then nearly all the captains(except Yamma but it's probablly a tie with a VL Arrancar and Vizard Captain).

Yes I do not have proof to support my theory.....nut let me put it this was......if yama or shunsui or ukitake or unohana were to obtian hollow powers u would have to agree that they would be twice as strong as say rose or love o even kensai in hollow mode......because they are atleast twice as strong as a normal captain.....so it wouldnt be going totally out of the way to say that those four in their normal shinigami mode can match or even be better than rose or love or kensai in normal mode.....

also Hitsugaya is not a VC...he is a captain...and It wouldnt be fare to consider him a low level captain....since he is reffered to as a heavenly being that comes into existence only once in a few centuries......and the fact thar he is only 10-12 in age when all of his co's are over 30 or more.....despite that he is trusted by yama to carry out most of the important mission.....

Also, adjuhas are not VC level they r captain level......and also it was said that a group of 10 vastolordes could defeat the entire soul society....so that means they r much more powerful than captains or atleast most captains...so we cant really say that shinji or kensai who were probably avg captains can beat vastlordes arrancars....even in hollow form....

Yes Ichigi has never fought the way he fought with kenpachi...because he developed a lot after tha fight....he had much more control ever his reiatsu...he attained bankai....which is zangetsu's ultimate form....so no matter how much reiatsu ichigo borrowed from zangetsu in the shikai state, it can never match the bankai reiatsu...which is evident from the fact that when ichigo used his bankai first, the sheer reiatsu broke all the bones in his body.....so saying that ichigo used the most reiatsu in the fight agaiinst kenpachi is baseless....because even after the fight when he was bankai training....yoruichi stated that ichigo didnt quite have enough reiatsu to achieve bankai at the beginning of training...

Onomatopoeia
August 16, 2008, 03:16 PM
Dude... Hitsugaya said that a VC could beat a normal Adjucha. I didn't say he was VC level. And the fact that it would take 10 Vastrolordes to beat SS pretty much proves my point.... their are only 10 captains left and everything below VC(except in 11th division) is a joke. A Vastro Lorde would only have to be 1.5 times stronger then the average captain to destroy SS with just 10 of them. Kensei and the rest have all had plenty of time to train anyways so they're probablly well above Average captain level add in Vizard Masks and they're probablly plenty strong enough to take a VL on.

Hello_Moto
August 16, 2008, 04:33 PM
i think arancarrr will always be better than hollows the thing they have on their side is intelligence its seems like arancarr are usually smarter than hollows which means they can strategize better usually in bleach the fight isnt all about power

Hockeychaoz
August 16, 2008, 04:50 PM
i think arancarrr will always be better than hollows the thing they have on their side is intelligence its seems like arancarr are usually smarter than hollows which means they can strategize better usually in bleach the fight isnt all about power

A caterpillar is a bug. Said caterpillar goes into a cocoon and comes out a butterfly. The butterfly is still a bug.

Arrancar are still hollow, just more evolved hollow.
I always thought of the word hollow as a species, like all the people in the word are humans.

But I understand what your saying. Intelligence plays a big role in all this. That's why Im excited for the Kira fight.

Devil-buster
August 16, 2008, 09:39 PM
Dude... Hitsugaya said that a VC could beat a normal Adjucha. I didn't say he was VC level. And the fact that it would take 10 Vastrolordes to beat SS pretty much proves my point.... their are only 10 captains left and everything below VC(except in 11th division) is a joke. A Vastro Lorde would only have to be 1.5 times stronger then the average captain to destroy SS with just 10 of them. Kensei and the rest have all had plenty of time to train anyways so they're probablly well above Average captain level add in Vizard Masks and they're probablly plenty strong enough to take a VL on.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/17/

In the above page hitsugaya states that a vastolorde is stronger than any captain...not just average captains.......so if his words are believable a vastolorde arrancar should be stronger that a captain vizard.....kensei and the others can train as much as they want, but they all have a limit...whether the limit is above or below a vastolorde arrancar, only time and kubo can tell....

Onomatopoeia
August 16, 2008, 09:58 PM
Not really, Hitsugaya has no idea how strong Yamma is, just like he had no idea how strong Aizen was. You can't take his opinion on the strength of all Captains from just Hitsugaya. I doubt he's ever seen Yamma's Shikai and defintely not his Bankai. Besides Kubo has a real problem with consistency, he depicted the Espada as untouchable and now we Espada falling all over the place.

Vizard Captains can beat a Vastro Lorde Arrancar(with much work but still). Their is a reason why Hitsugaya said 10 VL's and not 5. If they were stronger then Yama then they wouldn't need any more then 5.

Besides your seriously undestimating the power of a Vizard Mask, Ichigo is obviously struggling against GJ without releasing using just a Bankai. And in the end destroys Grimmjaw's released form using his mask. The Vizard mask is an extreme powerup that many people understimate.

hyn_pride93
August 16, 2008, 10:40 PM
Devil-buster, I'm not trying to slam your thoughts or anything by this post okay. So try not to get mad at me or anything. :p

Because Hitsugaya said that a VL was stronger than any captain just means that they're stronger than any captain. But the thing is, Hitsugaya doesn't know the arrancar/espada/vastos. The thing is, how did SS even know about the Arrancars for starters. How did they know their power levels and what they were capable of? And how did they know that 10 VLs could destroy SS? Do you guys think that there's something SS is hiding from us or what?

But back to the VLs being stronger than any Captain including a Vizard. For starters, the Vizards, theoretically speaking, do indeed have limits. Did you get that? Limits. They have more than one. Their shinigami limit and their hollow limit. Once they reach their shinigami limit, they can still gain more power by achieving their full potential as a hollow. Thus making them Vizards. That mask that they put on is not just an accessory. It's kind of like a key that unlocks their hollow. Once that hollow is unlocked, I guess you could say that the powers are also unlocked. Thus making their battle that much easier.


Now the example Ono made was perfect for this. Ichigo was struggling fighting a released GJ in with his bankai. But then when he put on his mask defeated him in no time and stopped Grimm's attack with his bare hand. But another example that I would like to add is when GJ fought against Shinji. Shinji was fighting with an unreleased zanpaktou in his VM (vizard mode). And was pwning him and would've killed him too if Ulq hadn't showed up. Ulq also said that Ichigo was just like them when he was in VM and the same goes for Halibel who also said that. The only error with these examples is that, GJ isn't a VL along with Ulq, and we don't know what Halibel is yet.

We still have to find out

Onomatopoeia
August 16, 2008, 11:54 PM
Wait! hyn-pride93 we have no idea as of yet whether Ulq is a VL yet or not. Thats just speculation. Personally I think it would be a good way to finally make the Vizard Mask unbeatable.

drakend
August 17, 2008, 12:53 AM
Guys anyway there is one issue: Vaizards, Arrancars, Hollows and Shinigamis have different powers, of course, but they ALL had entire centuries to train them thus improving their usage. Ichigo had only a few months to train his shinigami and hollow powers and now he's able to keep the mask as long as he wishes, which is a result the vaizards kept years to obtain. If Ichigo's growth rate keep being costant or even increases then he will eventually become stronger than anything most likely.

hyn_pride93
August 17, 2008, 02:16 AM
Although Ichigo has only been a shinigami for a few months, he has been doing farely well. He hasn't even learned kidou yet or perfect each of his zanpaktou's forms: shika/bankai. But he's also the exception to the rule too, so that also helps.

As for Ulquiorra, we know for sure that he is not a VL. How do we know that? Because Aizen said so himself. He said that he didn't have the VLs on his side yet. So that means that none of his espadas/arrancars are VLs. At most they're just really powerful espada, who are trying to push the limit to the VL bar.

So that's how we know that Ulquiorra isn't a VL. and that would mean that the same would go for Halibel.

ryanzokuken
August 17, 2008, 09:41 AM
Dude... Hitsugaya said that a VC could beat a normal Adjucha. I didn't say he was VC level. And the fact that it would take 10 Vastrolordes to beat SS pretty much proves my point.... their are only 10 captains left and everything below VC(except in 11th division) is a joke. A Vastro Lorde would only have to be 1.5 times stronger then the average captain to destroy SS with just 10 of them. Kensei and the rest have all had plenty of time to train anyways so they're probablly well above Average captain level add in Vizard Masks and they're probablly plenty strong enough to take a VL on.

at least we can agree on that.
it seems to me people have been taking what has been said about VL's and misunderstanding and blowing it out of proportion.

people seem to do that here. in the manga, something as small as Urahara complimenting Chad like "hey Chad, you've gotten pretty strong." could lead to people on here thinking on it way too hard and then being like "ZOMG! CHAD IS WICKED STRONG! STRONGER THAN A CAPTAIN! URAHARA EVEN SAID SO! URAHARA IS PROBABLY WEAKER THAN HIM!"


but yea, anyways, after the description of VL's, for some reason, it seems like people got the impression "oh shit, a VL could bitch slap Aizen with ease."


Not really, Hitsugaya has no idea how strong Yamma is, just like he had no idea how strong Aizen was. You can't take his opinion on the strength of all Captains from just Hitsugaya. I doubt he's ever seen Yamma's Shikai and defintely not his Bankai. Besides Kubo has a real problem with consistency, he depicted the Espada as untouchable and now we Espada falling all over the place.

Vizard Captains can beat a Vastro Lorde Arrancar(with much work but still). Their is a reason why Hitsugaya said 10 VL's and not 5. If they were stronger then Yama then they wouldn't need any more then 5.

Besides your seriously undestimating the power of a Vizard Mask, Ichigo is obviously struggling against GJ without releasing using just a Bankai. And in the end destroys Grimmjaw's released form using his mask. The Vizard mask is an extreme powerup that many people understimate.

again, agreed. first of all, out of all the captains, Hitsugaya is probably the captain with the least credibility. to be honest, i don't even see why he's a captain. i don't think he has any buisness wearing that haori. but that's a different subject.

people really don't give enough cred to the Vaizards. Ichigo becomes a hell of a force when he's in bankai and puts his mask on. note his little scuffle with Ulquiorra. besides the fact that Ulquiorra was unharmed and then proceeded to wreck Ichigo, look at the pure power Ichigo produced. those two Getsuga Tenshou's surprised Ulquiorra quite a bit, forced him to block with both hands, and yet, he still failed and was sent packing through the building. also note Ichi's fight with released Grimmjow.

then after considering that, remember that Ichigo is probably considerably weaker than any of the Vaizard. this is speculation, but educated speculation, i would say.

Ichigo + bankai + mask = (approximately) one of the former captain Vaizards with just their shikai or just their mask. remember, the vaizards aren't only as strong as they're masks make them. they also have a shikai, and then a bankai level to go to on top of that!

Onomatopoeia
August 17, 2008, 10:50 AM
Something we agree on I'm surprised.

hyn_93 where did Aizen say they didn't have any VLs exactly? I must have missed something if your this sure.

Young Aizen
August 17, 2008, 11:45 AM
Although Ichigo has only been a shinigami for a few months, he has been doing farely well. He hasn't even learned kidou yet or perfect each of his zanpaktou's forms: shika/bankai. But he's also the exception to the rule too, so that also helps.

As for Ulquiorra, we know for sure that he is not a VL. How do we know that? Because Aizen said so himself. He said that he didn't have the VLs on his side yet. So that means that none of his espadas/arrancars are VLs. At most they're just really powerful espada, who are trying to push the limit to the VL bar.

So that's how we know that Ulquiorra isn't a VL. and that would mean that the same would go for Halibel.

no he never said he didnt have any vl's he said "once i've assembled all the vasto lordes the espada we be complete" meaning he doesnt have ten vasto lordes... plus besides...its pretty obvious that ulquiorra is the basic template of a vasto lorde seeing as they use either a scene shot him or silhouette thats strikingly similar to him whenever they're referring to vasto lordes in bleach.. also you can tell from the power gap between ulq all espada numbered 5 and up..
and just look at the way he shitted on vizard ichigo...saying he's not a vl now is just being in denial lol....
anyways im looking foward to the kira and shuhei battles

Devil-buster
August 17, 2008, 01:29 PM
Besides your seriously undestimating the power of a Vizard Mask, Ichigo is obviously struggling against GJ without releasing using just a Bankai. And in the end destroys Grimmjaw's released form using his mask. The Vizard mask is an extreme powerup that many people understimate.

I am not saying the vizard mask is not strong......but I think u r underestimating the power or a normal shinigami or an arrancar......also u got to say kubo really let grimmjow down at the end......I mean giving him big nails for a final attack...also the guy was kickin ichigo's as for a while even when he had them mask....and all of a sudden....resolve and shit.....

If u want to compare ichigo's mask power...compare it to uluquoira......ichigo couldnt even scratch him in hollow mode.....

Again vizard powers are extremely powerful in the right hands.....we do not know the power level of shinji or kensai or any of the other vizards even before their transformation.....all we know is they got their ass kicked by tousen and gin.....but I am sure they r a lot stronger than that....

Also abt hitsugaya....we cannot say that hitsugaya has never seen yama release.....because when yama released in the SS arc a lot of people including komomura, zaraki, hisagi and many others seem to recognize his reiatsu and release.....so if someone like hisagi could recognize yama's release I am sure a captain like hitsugaya has ...... and hitsugaya is one of the smarter captains....that is why he is trusted with a lot of important missions......

@ryan.....abt ichigo being weaker than any of the vizards??? may be he is weaker than shini and kensai and may be love...but to say that a person who has reiatsu to match zaraki kenpachi whose reiatsu may be lower only to the four strongest captains is really not that believable.....not many people even among the captains can match ichigo in pure power.....not to mention he now has his bankai and a hollow mask....his reiatsu is probably double the time when he fought zaraki....so to say that he is weaker than three VC's with a mask and a rookie captain (then) with a mask is a hard stretch......

Onomatopoeia
August 17, 2008, 02:47 PM
Devil-Buster Ichigo has absolutely no experience with his mask. He can't even fire off a cero! He only knows the basics of his masks. The rest know everything and are extremely strong because of it. You can't compare any Vizard with a mask against Ichigo. It's unfair for Ichigo. THey probablly know how to give the Hollow in them even more power without overloading like Ichigo.

Ukitake said it had been years since he had seen his Shikai, years for a guy who's at least 2 centuries old is a decade or two.. This is probablly the only time in the all the years Hitsugaya has been a captain that Yamma has actually gotten serious and gotten ready to really fight. He's never had to reason before. Besides everyone else could only tell that Yamma had released by his Reitsu, Hisagi was close enough to be able to see the fire and since it's probablly common knowledge that he has a fire zanpaktou he could figure it out. In fact Yumi had no idea that Yamma released actually and it's likely that he's been in their longer then Hitsugaya.

Hitsugaya's opinion on the other's power should in no way be considered fact. It's simply an opinion. He has never seen Yamma go full out, he probablly hasn't seen any of the other old captains go all out either it's also a fact that he hasn't seen Byakuya go all out(Byakuya said that it was only the second time he'd shown anyone his Bankai) so it's unlikely that he's seen anymore then 2 other captains go Bankai. The only person I'd trust would be Unohana, Yamma, Ukitake, or Shunsi.

Devil-buster
August 17, 2008, 03:51 PM
Devil-Buster Ichigo has absolutely no experience with his mask. He can't even fire off a cero! He only knows the basics of his masks. The rest know everything and are extremely strong because of it. You can't compare any Vizard with a mask against Ichigo. It's unfair for Ichigo. THey probablly know how to give the Hollow in them even more power without overloading like Ichigo.

Ukitake said it had been years since he had seen his Shikai, years for a guy who's at least 2 centuries old is a decade or two.. This is probablly the only time in the all the years Hitsugaya has been a captain that Yamma has actually gotten serious and gotten ready to really fight. He's never had to reason before. Besides everyone else could only tell that Yamma had released by his Reitsu, Hisagi was close enough to be able to see the fire and since it's probablly common knowledge that he has a fire zanpaktou he could figure it out. In fact Yumi had no idea that Yamma released actually and it's likely that he's been in their longer then Hitsugaya.

Hitsugaya's opinion on the other's power should in no way be considered fact. It's simply an opinion. He has never seen Yamma go full out, he probablly hasn't seen any of the other old captains go all out either it's also a fact that he hasn't seen Byakuya go all out(Byakuya said that it was only the second time he'd shown anyone his Bankai) so it's unlikely that he's seen anymore then 2 other captains go Bankai. The only person I'd trust would be Unohana, Yamma, Ukitake, or Shunsi.

It is true that ichigo has very little control over his mask....but that doesnt mean the others are stronger......lets take ichigo vs byakuya for example.....byakuya had far better control over his shikai, but ichigo over powered his shikai with a single getsuga tensho forcing him to release bankai.....or lets take the case of shunpo....byakuya is a shunpo expert even so ichigo could match him being just a beginner.....this is because ichigo's power is on a diffeent level than most other captain class.....he is esentially just like a noble being the son of a former captain.....he was born with a frightening reiatsu....it is just like yoruichi said.....attaining bankai tp ichigo was just like remembering how to stand up......so even if people like hiyori or lisa have complete control over their mask.....it doesnt mean they can over power ichigo....can a mask can only raise one's own power level..so a captain class shinigami like ichigo having a power boost should be the same as or more than a VC level shinigami having an uber power boost.....and by the way ichigo having cero is a waste......he already has getsuga tensho.....just like urahara's shikai can counter a cero so can ichigos'....

Also the hollow inside a vizard is a part of their own power.....it is not something external...the power of the hollow inside u depends on the power of the user.....so no matter how much the vizard have trained they will definately hit that limit where they wont get any stronger.....just like zangetsu is a part of ichigo's power...the hollow is also a part of his power.....there is no such thing as his power and then the hollows power.....the mask only allows him to tap into that power within him.....

When hitsugaya was taking abt menos....it wasnt his opinion....it was SS knowledge.....only that part abt ten VL's being able to defeat SS was his opinion.....

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/08/
Ukitake doesnt say it has been years since he has seen yama's shikai...he just says it has been years since he has seen yama fight seriously.......also komomura is another new captain......if he can notice yama's reiatsu from that far so can hitsugaya......so he knows what yama's power is.....infact almost everybody in SS should have felt the frighteneing reiatsu when he released it......

Also byakuya never said he has only shown his bankai twice....he just said he has only used senkai twice in battle.....senkai is his bankai's ultimate form.....

Onomatopoeia
August 17, 2008, 06:53 PM
Kommamuru isn't a new Captain he became a captain before Byakuya and likely around 60 years ago given that he was close to Tousen and he was high up in the seats. Hitsugaya has only been a captain for a decade at most. And in SS for less then two decades.

And the fact that Ukitake hasn't seen Yama get serious in that long proves my point even more. Hitsugaya would never have seen Yama fight seriously. Thats important he has no idea how strong he is.

He's only shown Senkai twice dude that means he's only ever gone all out twice and Hitsugaya defintely wasn't the reciever of that other time.

VLs being stronger then any captain isn't common knowledge, Aizen is probablly stronger then a VL because he's maxed out his abilities. An average VL could very easily be weaker then any of the older captains. What he means is an average VL could beat an average captain. It's not common knowledge what the power of each captain is. Case and Point Byakuya only using his ultimate attack twice.

Ichigo hasn't hit that limit, Vizard Powers>>>>>> Shinigami Powers. Even if Ichigo maxes out his Shinigami powers(which he defintely hasn't) if the Vizards max out their their mask powers then they're defintely stronger then him. And it's likely they've maxed out their Vizard Masks and they're Shinigmai powers are already quite strong.

Andonan
August 17, 2008, 07:59 PM
I haven't read the arguments over the last couple of pages, but everything Ono said on the first post of this page is completely correct. Plus we know how much Aizen likes to boast about his Arrancarr, he constantly reminds people that they are stronger than Shinigami, but we've seen captains continually beat some of his best, and we haven't even seen some of the average captains go all out yet :)

Devil-buster
August 17, 2008, 08:21 PM
Kommamuru isn't a new Captain he became a captain before Byakuya and likely around 60 years ago given that he was close to Tousen and he was high up in the seats. Hitsugaya has only been a captain for a decade at most. And in SS for less then two decades.

And the fact that Ukitake hasn't seen Yama get serious in that long proves my point even more. Hitsugaya would never have seen Yama fight seriously. Thats important he has no idea how strong he is.

He's only shown Senkai twice dude that means he's only ever gone all out twice and Hitsugaya defintely wasn't the reciever of that other time.

VLs being stronger then any captain isn't common knowledge, Aizen is probablly stronger then a VL because he's maxed out his abilities. An average VL could very easily be weaker then any of the older captains. What he means is an average VL could beat an average captain. It's not common knowledge what the power of each captain is. Case and Point Byakuya only using his ultimate attack twice.

Ichigo hasn't hit that limit, Vizard Powers>>>>>> Shinigami Powers. Even if Ichigo maxes out his Shinigami powers(which he defintely hasn't) if the Vizards max out their their mask powers then they're defintely stronger then him. And it's likely they've maxed out their Vizard Masks and they're Shinigmai powers are already quite strong.

Dude, komomura joined the G13 about the same time as tousen, that doesnt mean he because captain way before hitsugaya.......for one thing....for a new captain to step in, there has to be a vacancy....and since we dont know all the captains that were present during the gaiden arc and because we do not know what happened in the last 100 years....we cannot make that calculation.....

anyways my point was if komomura who was in the middle of a battle sense yama's reiatsu and leave.....someone like hitsugaya who was just running around, shouuld have been able to sense it too...therefore he does know how strong yama is.....and u cant say that komomura slept with yama so he know him better...cause we dont know.....and hitsugaya was also present real close when byakuya maxed out against ichigo...so he should have also sensed byakuya at max power....

Even if the vizards have maxed out their vizard and shinigami powers...u cant tell if that is enough to equal ichigo's un-maxed out power.....cause different individuals have different limits and different reserves.....its like comparing two cars with different max speeds.....one car has a max speed of 200 mph and another 300 mph.....just because car 1 has maxed out at 200 mph doesnt mean that car 2 has to max out just to catch up.....infact it can easily go to 201 mph or even 220 mph and it still isnt close to maxin out.........the same comparison can be applied in the case of vizards and ichigo....

ryanzokuken
August 17, 2008, 09:15 PM
@ryan.....abt ichigo being weaker than any of the vizards??? may be he is weaker than shini and kensai and may be love...but to say that a person who has reiatsu to match zaraki kenpachi whose reiatsu may be lower only to the four strongest captains is really not that believable.....not many people even among the captains can match ichigo in pure power.....not to mention he now has his bankai and a hollow mask....his reiatsu is probably double the time when he fought zaraki....so to say that he is weaker than three VC's with a mask and a rookie captain (then) with a mask is a hard stretch......

well i have no doubt that the former captains of the Vaizards would probably dominate Ichigo.

as for the former lieutenants, yea, you're right, it is speculation, but think about it.

we saw Ichigo grab Hiyori by the neck, overwhelm her, pin her to the wall, and nearly kill her, with just a single hand and within a moment of his mask forming. but important to note is; he wasn't in control. he was either A) a crazy, mindless hollow at that time, or B) Ogichi was in control. hard to tell because he didn't speak, he just screamed the creepy hollow Ichigo scream and grinned. Hiyori (as well as all the others) were also surprised as hell at the sudden surge of power and aggression.

at best, it shows us that shikai Ichigo + mask beats masked Hiyori. she didn't have her shikai out. (doubt she has bankai, even if she has had years to train since her lieutenant days)

that being said, i think masked bankai Ichigo could beat masked shikai Hiyori.
but i think it's safe to say that she is the weakest of the Vaizards.
the other former lieutenants might do a lot better. particularly Lisa or Hachi.

i don't think the big mistake people are making is necessarily underestimating the power of a vaizard mask. i think people are forgetting that the Vaizards have more than just a mask to put on. they also have their zanpakuto still. they have shikai and bankai releases yet to be used. espescially WITH their masks.

imagine masked bankai Shinji. O_O

Onomatopoeia
August 17, 2008, 09:17 PM
7th Division: Love Aikawa. Hollowfied, fled SS. Leaves a vacancy in the 7th Division Captain seat.
7th Division: Sajin Komamaru New 7th division Captain. See a connection?

Sajin was defintely a captain before Hitsugaya. Hitsugaya can't tell how strong someone is by sensing their Reitsu. Thats a fact. Ichigo could have huge amounts of reitsu and have the worst Bankai ever(which he does since it no longer gives him a speed boost at all) and he would be way weaker the the person at the same time. Sensing reitsu does not automaticlly tell you everything about someone's strength.

And please Ichigo is weaker then most of the Vizards. Ichigo is no where near maxing out his powers.

Hitsugaya has no idea the full power of many of the Captains!!! It is just an opinion. He has never seen them go out he has never just watched them go bankai to see how strong they were and what they could do. He has never battled them to test how strong they were. He can not say immediatly how strong a captain is based on reitsu. It is likely that he has never actually faced a VL considering how rare they are! He has no real way to compare! If I'm Grimmjaw does that make it so that I know the Power of Stark or Halibell based on the fact that I'm also an Espada??


The Vizard Captains are defintely wihtout a doubt stronger then Ichigo and it's possible that some of the lieutanants are!!!

Devil-buster
August 17, 2008, 10:33 PM
7th Division: Love Aikawa. Hollowfied, fled SS. Leaves a vacancy in the 7th Division Captain seat.
7th Division: Sajin Komamaru New 7th division Captain. See a connection?

Sajin was defintely a captain before Hitsugaya. Hitsugaya can't tell how strong someone is by sensing their Reitsu. Thats a fact. Ichigo could have huge amounts of reitsu and have the worst Bankai ever(which he does since it no longer gives him a speed boost at all) and he would be way weaker the the person at the same time. Sensing reitsu does not automaticlly tell you everything about someone's strength.

And please Ichigo is weaker then most of the Vizards. Ichigo is no where near maxing out his powers.

Hitsugaya has no idea the full power of many of the Captains!!! It is just an opinion. He has never seen them go out he has never just watched them go bankai to see how strong they were and what they could do. He has never battled them to test how strong they were. He can not say immediatly how strong a captain is based on reitsu. It is likely that he has never actually faced a VL considering how rare they are! He has no real way to compare! If I'm Grimmjaw does that make it so that I know the Power of Stark or Halibell based on the fact that I'm also an Espada??


The Vizard Captains are defintely wihtout a doubt stronger then Ichigo and it's possible that some of the lieutanants are!!!

Ichigo's bankai lost its speed!!! Thats a bull thats been flying around here for sometime.....ichigo's bankai never lost its speed......its just his oponents have gotten faster.....It has never been stated anywhere that ichigo's bankai lost its speed.....if that was so ichigo would never go bankai.....

And r u telling me if someone like yumichka could sense ichigo's power from far and tell that his reiatsu is matching zaraki's or could even be stronger.....a clever captain like hitsugaya cannot guage someone's reiatsu......give me a break.....

Grimjaw knew his superiors powers enough to know that he couldnt take uluquoira one on one....

WE HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OF THE VIZARDS FIGHT...EVEN AS REGULAR CAPTAINS...SO WE CANNOT SAY HOW STRONG THEY ARE.....WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING THAT SAYING THEY ARE DEFINATELY STRONGER THAN ICHIGO IS JUST FAN BOY-ISM........

Andonan
August 17, 2008, 11:50 PM
Wooooh, ok I'm all for heated discussion, but calm down people, deep breath, this is a discussion but please don't accuse or abuse fellow members :D......look at me I sound like an admin oh well not my place I'm just saying that we can argue without the use of capitals :D

Anyway I think this debate is going to end with being disregarded as 'lack of information'. We don't know the full histories of any of these characters and we don't know the experiences that these captains have had without Ichigo present......

I think Ichigo's power has always been fluctuating. We will be able to gage how strong he is in comparrison to the Vizards in this upcoming battle with 4th Espada while the Vizards face off against the higher-up Espada.....

Onomatopoeia
August 18, 2008, 12:58 AM
Look back a while ago. The Vizards fought Hollow Ichigo. Took him on while only using a SHikai and a second long Vizard Mask. This Ichigo could tap into amounts of Reitsu and had more Power,Speed etc. Then Ichigo yet they still took him on quite easily. It's not fanboyism to suspect that all the Vizard Captains could take him down. It's not fanboyism to believe that say Lisa could take Ichigo could take him down. No matter how you look at it to take Hollow Ichigo for that long while keeping him alive when he is trying to kill you is damn impressive.

Ichigo's Bankai got weaker in speed no matter who is opponent is. Stronger opponents doesn't change the fact that he should be able to make those afterimages. He made 20 of them against Byakuya in SS. We have yet to see another occurence of this show of speed. Zommari said he was the fastest Espada with Sonido and was only able to make 5 of those clones like Ichigo. Which obviously doesn't make sense. That would mean SS Ichigo is faster then Zommari but Zommari is faster then Vizard Ichigo which is totally messed up since Bankai Ichigo isn't, from what we've seen faster then Grimmjaw, but Vizard Ichigo is faster then GJ. In other words it doesn't add up. Put it simply Kubo Tite has a real problem with consistency, just like against Zaraki he was able to pull out gigantic reitsu but has never gone near that level again. Hopefully Kubo will explain this but until then it's just inconsistency. I also feel that is one of the main problems with your arguement you seem to add in Ichigo's unexplained power boost against Zaraki, speed he's never shown other then against Bykuya, GT, and Hollow Ichigo despite they're being a lot of evidence that he can only take one or two of the choices. Though if he had pretty much all of them he still wouldn't be able to beat Shinji,Kensei, and Love :tem

As for the last part, well look at it this way Yumi works with Zaraki. He knows his Spiritual Power and presence. He also knows that Zaraki was gonna go after Ichigo, Yumi probablly also noted that no one else's reitsu feels like Ichigo(who several times has been noted to have strange spiritual presence). He also knows that Ikkaku thinks of him as strong and he beat Renji. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who Zaraki would be fighting. Besides theirs one thing you have to consider Reitsu is only part of finding out how strong someone is. Bankai,Shikai,Strength,Speed,experience they all matter as much or more to figuring out how strong someone is. And Hitsugaya can't gauge that from just reitsu I can guarantee you that.

GJ would have tried to take Ulq down even if he was NO. 1 He freaking hates the guy. And GJ doesn't give a damn about ranking or your power sorta like Nnoitra he's always trying to prove he's number one. Ulq looks down at him, Ulq must be fought.

Lemonadez
August 18, 2008, 02:29 AM
Ichigo speed on bankai sux.. Even at the first fight with Byakuya, Ichigo lost. Byakuya was able to match that speed.

Right now even that Sonido guy who's the fastest among Espada is faster than Bankai Ichigo and Byakuya was even faster than the Sonido technique.

Also Ichigo Bankai speed was outmatched by Grimjaw released state. It took Ichigo Vaizard form to match grimjaw speed.

Andonan
August 18, 2008, 04:35 AM
I think the only way you can (possibly) explain any of these inconsistencies is through two means. It was said (during SS arc) that Ichigo was destroying his body, it was not able to keep up with the power of Ichigo's release. This could mean that Ichigo has never truly forced himself to move at the same speed that he once displayed in SS.

Another (and more plausible) is the fact that his Hollow is the only one present in his mind atm, NOT Zangetsu. It was said initially that greater power is achieved through a union between sword and the carrier. Ichigo has opted to side with the power of his Hollow (which he hasn't displayed much control over with the exception of the GJ battle) rather than attempting to side with Zangestsu. This could (possibly) mean that he has deliberately weakened his bond with his sword (therefore his Bankai) making the move much weaker. BUT this is compensated by his new Hollow Mask. This would explain why he has never been able to match the strength displayed against Kenpachi AND the speed displayed against Byakua....... I think this could be an explanation, but it is a sign of weak, inconsistent writing by Kubo to not address this issue.......

ryanzokuken
August 18, 2008, 07:45 AM
it's not fanboyism. and we don't need to see them go all out. just consider what information we have.

we've seen Shinji fight a little, using just his mask. yes, Grimm only had one arm and no, he didn't release, but the vicious beat down he took from Shinji can't be dismissed just because of that. with or without that arm, Grimmjow is a fierce fighter and he fears nobody (maybe Aizen?:p). he's strong and a clever fighter. and it's not like Shinji went all out either. he laid on a barrage of sword attacks and then a big cero. he wasn't even breathing hard or breaking a sweat.

now, as Shinji seems to be the leader of the Vaizards, it's safe to assume he's probably the most powerful of them.

we know what Ichigo's vaizard mask does for him in terms of power up. Shinji's does that and more, as he knows how to use cero and such.

we know, generally, what kind of power a shikai release can hold.

we know what bankai means.

add it all together.

shinigami former captain (former captain has become a way of saying captain, but better, lol)
plus
vaizard mask and the extreme power and hollow abilities that come with it
plus
bankai

that right there pretty much safely shows that the vaizards, at least the more powerful, former captain vaizards, are more powerful than Ichigo, even without seeing it directly.

Devil-buster
August 18, 2008, 09:34 AM
Look back a while ago. The Vizards fought Hollow Ichigo. Took him on while only using a SHikai and a second long Vizard Mask. This Ichigo could tap into amounts of Reitsu and had more Power,Speed etc. Then Ichigo yet they still took him on quite easily.

Ichigo's Bankai got weaker in speed no matter who is opponent is. Stronger opponents doesn't change the fact that he should be able to make those afterimages. He made 20 of them against Byakuya in SS. We have yet to see another occurence of this show of speed. Zommari said he was the fastest Espada with Sonido and was only able to make 5 of those clones like Ichigo. Which obviously doesn't make sense. That would mean SS Ichigo is faster then Zommari but Zommari is faster then Vizard Ichigo which is totally messed up since Bankai Ichigo isn't, from what we've seen faster then Grimmjaw, but Vizard Ichigo is faster then GJ. In other words it doesn't add up. Put it simply Kubo Tite has a real problem with consistency, just like against Zaraki he was able to pull out gigantic reitsu but has never gone near that level again.

As for the last part, well look at it this way Yumi works with Zaraki. He knows his Spiritual Power and presence. He also knows that Zaraki was gonna go after Ichigo, Yumi probablly also noted that no one else's reitsu feels like Ichigo(who several times has been noted to have strange spiritual presence). He also knows that Ikkaku thinks of him as strong and he beat Renji. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who Zaraki would be fighting. Besides theirs one thing you have to consider Reitsu is only part of finding out how strong someone is. Bankai,Shikai,Strength,Speed,experience they all matter as much or more to figuring out how strong someone is. And Hitsugaya can't gauge that from just reitsu I can guarantee you that.

GJ would have tried to take Ulq down even if he was NO. 1 He freaking hates the guy. And GJ doesn't give a damn about ranking or your power sorta like Nnoitra he's always trying to prove he's number one. Ulq looks down at him, Ulq must be fought.

The vizards fought a hollow...a complete hollow...it was not Hichigo....it was not ichigo either...a mindless creature can never tap into ichigo's full potential...it doesnt know any of his techiniques....do u know what separates a gillian from an adjuhas or vastolorde.....a gillian cannot think...he it doesnt have any fighting capabilities.....that is why it is so easy for a captain to defeat it......in shear strength it can probably rival an adjuhas or higher....also u cannot single out ichigo in this process....all other vizards underwent the same process.....

And abt zomari......he said he was the fastest espada......noitora also said he was the strongest espada....thier ego's super seed them a lot....and we already saw how fast stark is...he dissapeared from the vision of two captain level shinigami....also I agree with ANDO's first point on this one....Ichigo might have never pushed his bankai as far as he used against byakuya after that cause that time all the bones in his body broke...that could be a point

Also against zaraki he needed zangetsu's help to draw out power.....but after he attained bankai he could draw that much power on his own.....R u telling me that the tons of reiatsu he leaked out when he went bankai was nothing....it is as yoruichi said, before ichigo attained bankai he didnt know how to draw that power...that was the whole point of bankai training ....In other words when he fought zaraki....he was able to fighting a high class captain even though he was barely captain level by taping into his inert reiatsu through zangetsu....but when he mastered bankai he was able to tap into that inert reiatsu himself....

And yumichka never fought ichigo....he knew he beat ikkaku and reni...but he has no reason to guess that he is stronger than zaraki based on that....my point being he could guage ichigo's strength being that far away.....so far in bleach reiatsu has been used as the level of measuring someone's strength....so if someone has an idea of how high one's reiatsu is they have an idea of how stron they are...

And grimjaw was afraid of uluquoira showing up the whole time he was with orihime....he almost shit himself when ulu showed up.....for someone who enjoys battle that much to use a trick to beat someone means he knew fighting him wasnt the best option.....

@ ryan.....when shinji was fighting grimjaw neither of them was fighting seriously....also if u look at it u could say that ichigo messed grimjaw up equally bad during the 11 sec he had the mask...so that proves nothing.....
but I do believe shinji is stronger that ichi also kensai but not the rest....
Also just because someone is a captain doesnt mean they r as strong as other captain levels....just take zaraki vs tousen and komo.....zaraki practically raped them single handedly....and ichigo has all the things u meantioned except for complete mask control...

Onomatopoeia
August 18, 2008, 01:03 PM
He never could attain that much reitsu. Have you ever seen Ichigo's eye's turn blue before just from Reitsu, have you ever seen a Mask appear in Ichigo's reitsu, have you ever seen so much reitsu that you can see it everywhere?And my second question where in the world did you see Ichigo releasing that much reitsu? .The answer is nowhere, Ichigo has never shown that much reitsu do not try to argue with this. He has never shown this much reitsu before or aftwerwards.

As for Ichigo's speed I'll give you a simple ultimatum. Has Ichigo ever shown the super speed except in SS? I for one have my own theory about this but that doesn't change the fact that the answer is no.

Hitsugaya said that an Adjucha was far stronger in sheer strength then a Gillian dued so no thats not true. And look at it this way, Ichigo's Hollow is stronger then him. This puts his hollow strength at VL or Adjucha yet they took him. The raw power in that doesn't change.

Zaraki has a lot of reitsu, do you believe he could take on the older captains because of this? Reitsu does not instantly tell you how strong someone is. Ichigo got destroyed by Ulq using just his hands despite Ulq saying that when Ichigo is with his Hollow powers he has equal or higher reitsu then him. Like I said Reitsu doesn't mean as much as people think, it's like One Piece Bounty's, not a great way to measure power. Or heck Naruto with Chakra, just because Naruto has a lot of chakra does that make him stronger then Kakashi/Tsunade etc. .You can guess how strong someone is based on their Reitsu but your usually going to be wrong because their are way to many other factors. The only exception to this rule is Zaraki but even then he has Kendo which is a lot stronger. This is something I know you've conceeded , reitsu is not the only factor of strength admit it.

We have no reason to suspect that Ichigo is stronger then any of the Captain Shinigami's. From what we've seen Ichigo's main strength and the only reason he was able to beat Grimmjaw is his Vizard powers. Yet he has almost no training with it, which means he doesn't understand it's full power and can't use it. In comparison the captains can do tons more with it. And have trained with it much more, throw in Bankai and we've got four Ichigo killing captain class Vizards.

As for the final part, Grimmjaw isn't a complete knucklehead, he probablly knows that Ulq is a VL. He probablly knows that he wouldn't be able to beat him so he knew he'd have to use a trick.

babidivegeta
August 18, 2008, 02:14 PM
Wow people you are really going in depth, its been a fun read. IMO OnO make a good point, reitsu isn't everything. But at the same time what drives everyone in bleach is different. ichigo had lil motivation to fight untill orihime began to support him. his original goal that gave him much strength is the believe in saving other people and for that reason he underwent the intense bankai training and other methods of increasing his power. so if it were a regular fight with nothing at stake with one of the vizard captains it may just be that the vizard wins or loses. But if there is something at stake like saving many people or something then ichigo may show yet another great increase in his power for that particular momet.

Devil-buster
August 18, 2008, 06:59 PM
He never could attain that much reitsu. Have you ever seen Ichigo's eye's turn blue before just from Reitsu, have you ever seen a Mask appear in Ichigo's reitsu, have you ever seen so much reitsu that you can see it everywhere?And my second question where in the world did you see Ichigo releasing that much reitsu? .The answer is nowhere, Ichigo has never shown that much reitsu do not try to argue with this. He has never shown this much reitsu before or aftwerwards.

As for Ichigo's speed I'll give you a simple ultimatum. Has Ichigo ever shown the super speed except in SS? I for one have my own theory about this but that doesn't change the fact that the answer is no.

Hitsugaya said that an Adjucha was far stronger in sheer strength then a Gillian dued so no thats not true. And look at it this way, Ichigo's Hollow is stronger then him. This puts his hollow strength at VL or Adjucha yet they took him. The raw power in that doesn't change.

Zaraki has a lot of reitsu, do you believe he could take on the older captains because of this? Reitsu does not instantly tell you how strong someone is. Ichigo got destroyed by Ulq using just his hands despite Ulq saying that when Ichigo is with his Hollow powers he has equal or higher reitsu then him. Like I said Reitsu doesn't mean as much as people think, it's like One Piece Bounty's, not a great way to measure power. Or heck Naruto with Chakra, just because Naruto has a lot of chakra does that make him stronger then Kakashi/Tsunade etc. .You can guess how strong someone is based on their Reitsu but your usually going to be wrong because their are way to many other factors. The only exception to this rule is Zaraki but even then he has Kendo which is a lot stronger. This is something I know you've conceeded , reitsu is not the only factor of strength admit it.

We have no reason to suspect that Ichigo is stronger then any of the Captain Shinigami's. From what we've seen Ichigo's main strength and the only reason he was able to beat Grimmjaw is his Vizard powers. Yet he has almost no training with it, which means he doesn't understand it's full power and can't use it. In comparison the captains can do tons more with it. And have trained with it much more, throw in Bankai and we've got four Ichigo killing captain class Vizards.

As for the final part, Grimmjaw isn't a complete knucklehead, he probablly knows that Ulq is a VL. He probablly knows that he wouldn't be able to beat him so he knew he'd have to use a trick.

This is where he has used that much reiatsu
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/166/19/
The appearing of the mask thing on ichigo's reiatsu was more of an artistic thing....it appeared for zaraki too...unless u r implying that zaraki is a vizard too??
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/113/12/

And here one instance where he uses super speed....it is not normal shunpo cause he was in mid air and shunpo works only on solid ground.........
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/281/17/

and Kendo is a sword style that uses two hands.....it didnt increase zaraki's power....it just allowed him to swing his sword using the power of two hands instead of one thereby twice the force.....it is a cure to a handicap that puts on himself......zaraki depends solely on his power and fighting skills to win fights......

and in the last part u r contradicting urself, u said before that grimmjow would fight any one despite their rank and then u say he didnt fight uluquoira cause he knew he couldnt beat him????

Quote: GJ would have tried to take Ulq down even if he was NO. 1 He freaking hates the guy. And GJ doesn't give a damn about ranking or your power sorta like Nnoitra he's always trying to prove he's number one. Ulq looks down at him, Ulq must be fought.

Andonan
August 18, 2008, 07:36 PM
I know the way to solve this argument :D...... ICHIGO IS IN LOVE WITH RUKIA!!! Therefore he tried much harder in SS and has never tried that hard ever again including now while trying to save Orihime :p..... Ok bad theory I know ahahaha

You have to presume that Ono is right. I really don't think you can disregard a CAPTAIN who has had 100 years to train his Mask and think that Ichigo is still stronger than them...... I doubt that even Ichigo could beat Hiyori..... but who knows..........

Onomatopoeia
August 18, 2008, 08:02 PM
That top picture was the equivalent of GT. GT is not reitsu just like that picture is not reitsu. Besides even if that is Reitsu that still isn't even near the power he showed against Zaraki. Remember Zaraki forced Ganju to his knees but Byakuya didn't do the same to Ganju. And yet Byakuya is often considered more powerful then Zaraki(I will not give my personal opinion on this) more proof that reitsu isn't anywhere near enough to decide how strong someone is.

Those masks are very different and are likely representations of their power. Zaraki's is a skull and Ichigo's is a mask.

Theirs a big diffrence between not caring how powerful someone is to not coming prepared...

One means your confident the other means your just an idiot.

I don't see any afterimages do you? Nor do I see anything that implies that being any faster then Bankai Ichigo in SS. Also in the fight between Yoruichi and Soifon we saw them both shunpo while in the air. I don't see any proof that says Shunpo can only work in the air.

And just to secure my point about all the Captains being stronger then Ichigo and maybe some of the VCs. Lets look at this way, Bankai Vizard Ichigo beat GJ rather easily. Shinji with just a Mask and was just playing around wtf raped GJ who was about be forced to release. Unless your saying that Shinji is 2-3 times stronger then the rest of the Vizards then I don't see how you can argue this.

Devil-buster
August 18, 2008, 08:15 PM
I know the way to solve this argument :D...... ICHIGO IS IN LOVE WITH RUKIA!!! Therefore he tried much harder in SS and has never tried that hard ever again including now while trying to save Orihime :p..... Ok bad theory I know ahahaha

You have to presume that Ono is right. I really don't think you can disregard a CAPTAIN who has had 100 years to train his Mask and think that Ichigo is still stronger than them...... I doubt that even Ichigo could beat Hiyori..... but who knows..........

lol...if u really look at it...rukia is like a cougar....like 50 years older than ichigo....and they did sleep in the same room....may be one thing led and another and.....yo:s

Well ichigo had a lot of advantages that the captains didnt have....first of all the captains had to find a way to curb their hollow...I am sure that didnt happen right away....then they had to keep themselves hidden from SS all the time....I am pretty sure SS was searching like hell in the beginning...they wouldnt just let 4 captin class shinigami and four VC's just get away easily....and if they used the reiatsu hiding gigai...then that means it would have taken a while for them to gain their power back.....so out of those 100 years they spent a lot of time doin these things......

Ichigo had all these experience at his disposal....he got trained by the same vizards....even if it was for a short while...they taught him how to control his hollow,,,,they taught him how to increase time......and ichigo probably can pick up the rest.....I mean ichigo trained with urahara for only 5 days and he became an expert in sword fighing...he trained with yoruichi only 3 days and he mastered his bankai and mastered his shikai and also shunpo.....and he could fight evenly with someone like byakuya...who had decades of experience as a captain.......so if u look at it that way ichigo is a very fast learner, these are things that take a normal shinigami decades to perfect.......this is proved by the fact that he extended hi hollow mask time from 11 sec to about half an hour.......

This is how I see the vizard match ups....i dont even think they r gonna fight the top espada's...cause they r at the moment heavily outnumbered.....no matter how strong they r I dont think they can take on 6 captains.....

Shinji vs aizen
Kensai vs tousen
Rose or love or both vs gin
Hiyori vs linette
the other three VC vizards vs halibel fraccion


yama vs baragan (old people match...lol)
stark vs shunsui+ukitake
soifon vs halibel (chick slap fest...bound to happen)
and komomura goes tousen.....why dont u look at me during...:p

Onomatopoeia
August 18, 2008, 08:31 PM
Mashiro got 15 hours on her first attempt with her Vizard mask... I think all the Vizard beat in him time easy on their first time. I think thats pretty damn impressive. They probablly didn't have to spend to much time on training.

Devil-buster
August 18, 2008, 09:17 PM
Mashiro got 15 hours on her first attempt with her Vizard mask... I think all the Vizard beat in him time easy on their first time. I think thats pretty damn impressive. They probablly didn't have to spend to much time on training.

Yes mashiro did master her hollow...but he hollow is a buttefly or somethin, and she is so retarded that her hollow was probably equally retarded....but anyways thats not what I was talkin abt....I was takin abt the method itself...I mean its not like the knew from the beginning that forcing the hollow to the depest depth will allow them to use its power.....it probably happened as a lot of experiments or as a result of pure chance....

But the most time would have been spent runnin away and hiding from SS....

Tsukisama
August 18, 2008, 10:06 PM
The discussion needs to get back on-topic: chapter discussion and next-chapter predictions. Further off-topic posts may be deleted.

In the next chapter, I expect the scene to begin with Yumichika giving some closing statements before advancing to the next battle. Since Hisagi hasn't been seen in quite some time, I would hope that his battle is featured next. Ikkaku, though, would have the easiest battle transition, as I could picture Yumichika saying something like "You sealed your fate when you did the briar thing so that Ikakku wouldn't see my zanpakutou's true power; I wonder how he's doing..."

Andonan
August 18, 2008, 10:40 PM
No look it's obvious they all went through this training an AGE ago. Don't you remember, half of them don't remember the fact that what's her name could go hollow form for 15 hours straight away. That's a pretty massive phenomenon, therefore not easily forgotten, therefore I would assume they all went through this training A LONG time ago and can probably all fight toe to toe with all the top Espada. I really think the Vizards are going to turn out to be the decisive factor in this battle and that they will clear the field quickly so they can take revenge on Aizen......

Onomatopoeia
August 19, 2008, 12:47 AM
@Tsuki: Lol our debate went seriously off topic =)

Ikkaku will have to go Bankai, I'm not sure how he'll hide it if he'll hide it at all. Maybe thats one captain spot we won't have to think much over. But it's likely that Po will make lots of theological questions aimed toward Shinigami's. For example while they're fighting Po will say, "How do you know they're fighting for the right side", "Why do you fight" etc. And Kaku will go typical 11th division response with "I like to fight" and then follow with a Bankai.

I just think that Po seems like that, he looks like a holy man and his question about god gives me an idea about his personality. He seems quite serious to. It would make a good foil for Ikkaku. And would keep a theme going for all the F4 fights. 2 of the fights will be against opponents that are nothing like them(Ikkaku and Kira) and 2 opponents who are a lot like them(Hisagi and Yumichika). At least Hisagi's opponent seems to be one of those quite cool guys who takes everything seriuosly.

ryanzokuken
August 19, 2008, 01:17 AM
i think Ikkaku will definitely go bankai and that everyone will see it.

just the fact that they made such a big deal about him having a bankai and hiding it practically tells you right there that eventually the secret is bound to come out. it's necessary to develop Ikkaku's character and story any further.

looking forward to it, as he is one of my favorites.;)

igotthegoods
August 19, 2008, 02:20 AM
ikakku would be the easiest person to transition to from yumichika's fight, so i think he's going to be up next ;)

i agree that we'll be seeing ikkaku's bankai in his upcoming fight since it would just be a continuation of the fanservice we've been getting recently and his shikai is just not all that impressive. he's certainly going to need the bankai to stand a chance. i'm not going to lie, if we're going to see a bankai i'd rather see one of the unknowns (unohana, ukitake, urahara, etc..) but i'd be ok with seeing ikkaku's again. it's one of my absolute favorites from the series so far. as far as it being revealed to everyone, i think it could go either way (no clue how he would hide it, though). he's just so happy serving under kenpachi that i'm not sure he'll go bankai unless he's absolutely sure no one will notice. but on the other hand, like ryan said, it really is necessary for his character to develop further. and aren't they going to need to fill those empty captain spots one of these days anyway?

Andonan
August 19, 2008, 02:23 AM
I know that he wants to stay under Kenpachi but why can't be have a Bankai AND remain a third seat..... This is still what makes no sense to me. Yumi had a valid reason considering his Shikai was considered weak by the 11th division because it was Kido based but that certainly doesn't apply to Ikkaku....... I know he'll become pressured but surely you can turn down a captaincy.... Not to mention Ikkaku doesn't exactly strike me as captain material AHAHAHA he's too hot headed ahahaha

Onomatopoeia
August 19, 2008, 02:36 AM
And what Zaraki is a sheep Adonan?

Andonan
August 19, 2008, 03:16 AM
I'm not following you Ono...... I doubt that even if Ikkaku's bankai was discovered I doubt he would be promoted above Kenpachi. Kenpachi could still decimate Ikkaku even if he has bankai.....

Onomatopoeia
August 19, 2008, 12:39 PM
Ikkaku being to rash to be a captain... Mental stability isn't exactly a requirement to be a captain.

igotthegoods
August 19, 2008, 12:50 PM
Ikkaku being to rash to be a captain... Mental stability isn't exactly a requirement to be a captain.
true, mayuri is one that could be put into the category of not exactly mentally stable ;)

you know, we still have yet to see if yumichika's actions from the last chapter will go unnoticed. it's very possible that the fact he has a kidou-based zanpaktou will be "outed" in the next chapter. if ikkaku could hear his laughter, why not this too?

BlackHair
August 19, 2008, 12:58 PM
I know that he wants to stay under Kenpachi but why can't be have a Bankai AND remain a third seat..... This is still what makes no sense to me.
I have 2 possible reasons:

1. If other should know that he is capable of Bankai, ppl would bug him to fill one of those left captain seats. He just want to server/fight alongside Zaraki.

2. He thinks he is stronger than Zaraki with his Bankai and thats why he is keeping it secret. He wants to fight alongside Zaraki, if he was stronger, Zaraki wouldn't like it obviously.

I guess one of those 2 might be right, especially 1 :P

The GodMonster
August 19, 2008, 03:27 PM
2. He thinks he is stronger than Zaraki with his Bankai and thats why he is keeping it secret. He wants to fight alongside Zaraki, if he was stronger, Zaraki wouldn't like it obviously.

Even with bankai i don't think that ikkaku can beat zaraki.

Next possible fight may be is ikkaku and the other, but i want that last. I want to see kira since he have incredible shikai and maybe bankai(if kubo disade that:p)

About Ichi & Ulq do you think that we will see super speed and icredible reatsu from ichigo. I expect some explanation kubo to write why ichi has lost that(I see it that way). He can match zaraki at reatsu, he faster then baykuga(in the beging where ichigo released bankai but then baykuga stated that ichi lost it) and in one moment lost it all. :mad

Damm. People here need explanation kubo, don't you think so. Anyway i expect comversation between ichi & zangestu, Ichi & Shirosaki or there of theme at one time(I prefer The third opption:p)

Anyway keep going people in same way. Discussion is just perfect the way which is know.

akatsuki27
August 19, 2008, 03:49 PM
I have 2 possible reasons:

1. If other should know that he is capable of Bankai, ppl would bug him to fill one of those left captain seats. He just want to server/fight alongside Zaraki.

2. He thinks he is stronger than Zaraki with his Bankai and thats why he is keeping it secret. He wants to fight alongside Zaraki, if he was stronger, Zaraki wouldn't like it obviously.

I guess one of those 2 might be right, especially 1 :P

he doesnt think he is stronger than zaraki, are you kidding me?? he keeps his bankai a secret because he doesnt want to become a captain, thus leaving the 11th squad and not serving under kenpachi

Onomatopoeia
August 19, 2008, 04:39 PM
If he thought he was stronger then Zaraki then he wouldn't want to serve uner Zaraki.

Devil-buster
August 19, 2008, 10:16 PM
I dont think having a bankai alone will assure u a promotion to captain.....Renji has a bankai and a lot of people if not everyone knows about it....and he is not captain......ikkaku doesnt even want to be considered thats why he is hiding it......

And where did ikkaku say that he thought he was stronger than zaraki with his bankai.....

also if ikkaku releases his bankai this chapter I hope he reveals something moe abt it...and what its real power is, aside being just a huge weapon.....and I hope it doesnt break like last time...lol

Tsukisama
August 19, 2008, 10:31 PM
you know, we still have yet to see if yumichika's actions from the last chapter will go unnoticed. it's very possible that the fact he has a kidou-based zanpaktou will be "outed" in the next chapter. if ikkaku could hear his laughter, why not this too?

I don't think so. Ikkaku could hear Yumichika's laughter when he was not enclosed inside of Charlotte's thorn barrier, but now that Yumichika was enclosed by the barrier, which Charlotte said completely isolated the people inside from those outside, I think Yumichika's secret is still safe unless Yumichika keeps it going even after the thorns go away, which I doubt he will do.

[hr]

Ikkaku remaining 3rd seat or being stronger than Zaraki are interesting topics for discussion, but these are not appropriate topics to be discussed in this thread. Please use the Bleach Hangout Thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13721) to discuss them.

This thread is only for discussion of chapter 321 and predictions for chapter 322. Posts not related to these go elsewhere. Just post these thoughts elsewhere (and don't do half-on-topic posts where you stick a brief sentence about the actual topic and then continue the off-topic discussion, because you are still being off-topic.)

Andonan
August 20, 2008, 01:32 AM
I think talking about Ikkaku's bankai and his promotion to Captain is relevant to predictions about chapter 321.... If he releases his bankai in the next chapter ( a prediction) then the consequences are surely to follow, these could even be hinted at during the next chapter also. I know that the monitors want to make sure we stay on topic, and I can understand most of the posts you remove but i think something like this is appropriate considering it is likely that in the upcoming chapters Ikkaku's bankai could become an problem...... Maybe I'm wrong and if so I am sorry :)......

hajialibaig
August 20, 2008, 08:48 AM
Bad English grammar aside....

Do you guys think that this upcoming chapter will show some reactions from the Espada/Captains regarding the defeat Cool Horn??

I personally hope so... to add some realistic feel to the already boring stand-off... after all, the starring thing has been going on for too long now.. :(

LoS
August 20, 2008, 10:51 AM
Do you guys think that this upcoming chapter will show some reactions from the Espada/Captains regarding the defeat Cool Horn??

They will just do what they always do. Say "that idiot got himself killed, he was too weak anyway." Something along those lines, they are never shocked to see someone defeated.

ShaunMati1
August 20, 2008, 11:29 AM
I hope we see some reactions from the Espada. We got a bit of reaction from Stark when Arenio (spelling?) died. What i think will happen is that the next few chapters Berragan's fraccion will die and he will start to panic or get angry and either halibel or stark take over and make the decisions, that is if infact Aizen is trapped in the flame wall.

But i hope we dont see a conclusion from Yumi's fight, i already know coolhorn is dead i dont wanna see him saying something before he dies. Just goto Ikkaku's fight and end it quickly so we can see Kira and Hisagi.

zerobelow
August 20, 2008, 01:38 PM
I think #1 will say coolhorn was the weakest, always obsessed with beauty over strength

ryanzokuken
August 20, 2008, 02:46 PM
i see Kira as the weakest of the pillar guardians, so i would assume that the fraccion facing him is the weakest of the four pillar attackers. that is, if the guardians are all to win their fights.

i dunno, i could be wrong, as we don't really know anything about Hisagi's abilities so far, but he strikes me as pretty good.

BlackHair
August 20, 2008, 04:03 PM
Even with bankai i don't think that ikkaku can beat zaraki.


he doesnt think he is stronger than zaraki, are you kidding me?? he keeps his bankai a secret because he doesnt want to become a captain, thus leaving the 11th squad and not serving under kenpachi
I agree with both of u.


If he thought he was stronger then Zaraki then he wouldn't want to serve uner Zaraki.
Imo Ikkau admires Zaraki, I base this on Renjis and his conversation (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/206/14/) in the flashback right after Ikkaku using Bankai for the first time. Its his dream to fight under Zaraki, mean he would do that even if he things that he is stronger then him.

But like I said, I tend more to possibility 1.

hyn_pride93
August 21, 2008, 03:59 AM
Ok, I'm gonna be a goody goody (omg I'm so sorry... don't hate me :tem). But seriously, these loop holes that people are making up so becaus they are too lazy to go to another thread or make another thread where they continue a totally off topic topic is really irritating. This thread is for discussing the current chapter and predicting the next. Not predicting what's gonna branch off of what's gonna happen next chapter.

Like I've said before, don't piss off Tsuki or any of the other mods for the matter because you just might find yourself with too many warnings in the end for not following rules. As for the rule, it just so happens to be that if you're not gonna predict the next chapter, then you've gotta discuss ch. 321. Or predict 322.

Please don't bash me for this. I'm really sorry if I've become too goody goody, but I don't want to lose any more people because I've already lost enough. I know that getting off topic won't get you banned, but I just don't want anything happening to you.

as for my predictions... I think that we will be seeing either Hisagi fight or Ikkaku fight. But I don't think that we will be seeing Hisagi all that much in the next chapter because of how important it would be for us if he were to release his zanpaktou in his battle. Unless Kubo is planning on putting the two shinigami of whom we haven't seen their zanpaktou's abilities yet (Yumichika/Hisagi), and put the two who we see using their zanpaktou's abilities often (Ikkaku/Kira).

I just hope that we don't see a bankai from Ikkaku unless he is able to hide it like how Yumichika hid his shikai's ability. It would be pretty exciting to see him defeat an opponent with his shikai and not his bankai. I still don't know it's ability yet... that's if it has one besides the fact that it can split apart into three sections.

ryanzokuken
August 21, 2008, 06:07 AM
nah, seems like Ikkaku's shikai's only function is that it's a spear and can separate. it's a straight weapon type zanpakuto, with a small tweak/special feature. like Renji's.

a bit boring and not very useful either. which is unfortunate.:(

Gold Knight
August 21, 2008, 06:22 AM
Ikkaku seems to pride himself on his capability of surprising his foes, and I think we'll probably see a little more of that coming in future chapters. He also only relies on his ban kai in times of desperation, so I'm going to take a guess and say he probably won't be quite that desperate in this battle.

Andonan
August 21, 2008, 08:24 AM
No I'm sure he'll use his bankai. Considering Ikkaku used his bankai for like a 'teens' Arracarr it wouldn't make much sense if he didn't use it for a fraccion of one of the top three Espada......

hyn_pride93
August 21, 2008, 11:37 AM
ANDONAN: The thing with the whole fraccion thing is that the espada just have to choose anyone that they want. If you remember, Grimm's fraccion were numbered from like eleven r thirteen and all that. On top of that, their numbers don't have any real meaning if you're not an espada.


nah, seems like Ikkaku's shikai's only function is that it's a spear and can separate. it's a straight weapon type zanpakuto, with a small tweak/special feature. like Renji's.

a bit boring and not very useful either. which is unfortunate.:(

True. But what was that thing that Ichigo noticed Ikkaku's zanpaktou was doing? Because I remember him saying something but I didn't understand it all. Something to do with the red thread at the end of his zanpaktou.

Anywho, I think that if Kubo decides to make these pillar battles fast, then he might just have Ikkaku fight almost all the way with his shikai then maybe let him use bankai if something happens.

ThaGreatOne
August 21, 2008, 09:47 PM
Yea i think Ikkaku will have to use his bankai because he is fighting a fraccion and it looks like his shikai doesn't do too much compared to his bankai. Since his bankai has already been revealed and explained it can be placed in without taking up too much of a chapter.

dragon2021
August 21, 2008, 11:03 PM
I just wonder has anyone thought why Aizenis doing this know? I mean it was not at 100% yet, but he decided to move the war up? It was suppose to happen in the winter. I think something else is going on here. Mybe this is just a test or mybe they think they might be able to capture Yamma or it could be they are stalling for time and weakening Goti 13 forces.

Archit
August 22, 2008, 12:53 AM
Yeah I'm curious as to what Aizen, Tousen, and Gin are thinking right now. Aizen has to seriously have a ACE up his sleeve. One fraccion down and 3 more to go. I hope the next 3 Elites take they're opponents out ASAP! Even though we're probably looking at 3-4 more chapters of there spotlight lol.